Tuesday Volume 589 9 December 2014 No. 77

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 9 December 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 757 9 DECEMBER 2014 758

Jason McCartney: I very much look forward to the House of Commons northern powerhouse coming over the Pennines to west Yorkshire. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Tuesday 9 December 2014 new bidders for the Northern Rail and TransPennine Express rail franchises will commit themselves to getting rid of the antiquated Pacer trains that plague commuters The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock in my constituency on their daily commute?

PRAYERS Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is right to raise this issue, which is raised by Members of Parliament and constituents from across the Northern Rail and [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] TransPennine Express franchise areas. I can confirm that in the autumn statement we set out some changes that we would make to those two franchises. The packages BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS for the new franchises will include a substantial package of upgrades, including new services and modern trains NATIONAL AUDIT OFFICE in order to phase out the outdated Pacer trains, which The VICE-CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported to have also been raised with us under the Deputy Prime the House, That the Address, praying that Her Majesty Minister’s Northern Futures programme. will appoint Lord Bichard KCB to the office of Chair of the National Audit Office, was presented to Her Majesty, Mr Spencer: If north Nottinghamshire’s coalfields who was graciously pleased to comply with the request. are to feel the success of HS2, connectivity will be key. Will the Chief Secretary assure the House that once we INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS have pulled together a bid for the Robin Hood extension AUTHORITY to the villages of Ollerton and Edwinstowe, capital will The VICE-CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported to be made available? the House, That the Address, praying that Her Majesty will appoint Professor Sir Ian Kennedy to the office of Danny Alexander: I am well aware of the importance Chair of the Independent Parliamentary Standards of this connection to my hon. Friend and to other Authority from the end of his current term until 1 June Members of Parliament in the area. As he will be aware, 2016, was presented to Her Majesty, who was graciously the east midlands has already benefited from investment pleased to comply with the request. of approximately £70 million to improve line speeds on the midland main line up to 125 miles per hour. Further electrification is due to be extended to Nottingham by 2019. A decision on the Robin Hood line is a matter for Oral Answers to Questions the local authority, but we would certainly look on the idea favourably.

Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The importance TREASURY of infrastructure is surely a sign of the importance of Government investment as a way of growing our economy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— Does the Chief Secretary therefore agree that one further way that we could move forward on this is to build at Infrastructure Investment least 200,000 new houses a year to help to build our economy? 1. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What steps he is taking to encourage investment in infrastructure Danny Alexander: I totally agree with the hon. Lady. in west Yorkshire. [906508] It is incredibly important to improve the rate of house building. I would set the figure at closer to 300,000 houses 12. Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): What fiscal a year across the UK, rather than the 200,000 that she steps he is taking to encourage investment in infrastructure. mentioned. She will know that in the autumn statement [906520] we extended the affordable house building programme for a further two years in order to build 275,000 affordable The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): homes in the next Parliament. We are taking forward Mr Speaker, the Chancellor of the Exchequer is at an the idea of Government commissioning of housing, ECOFIN council meeting today. which would be a radical departure for this country, at The Government have made huge progress in delivering Northstowe, and looking at it as a solution for the the infrastructure that the UK needs, establishing the whole country. first-ever national infrastructure plan, which now shows that more than 2,500 projects have been completed Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I warmly since 2010. West Yorkshire continues to benefit as part welcome the infrastructure announcement, but does my of this plan, which includes the M62 smart motorway right hon. Friend agree that we also need further devolution westward extension—the first new trans-Pennine road to allow the much-needed rail link to Leeds Bradford capacity since 1971. As part of the city deal, a combined airport and the electrification of the Leeds-Harrogate-York west Yorkshire authority is taking forward a package of line? Will he meet me and other interested colleagues investments in transport worth up to £1.6 billion over who represent the area to discuss how we can take 15 years. this forward? 759 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 760

Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is absolutely right 23. [906532] Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): to say that devolution, city deals and the growth plans Although I welcome the announcements in the we have put in place for every local enterprise partnership autumn statement and the northern powerhouse area are an incredibly important part of delivering initiative, too often in northern Lincolnshire in the infrastructure. He refers to two projects that are very Humber region we feel somewhat remote from important in the city he represents and I would, of the northern powerhouse. Will my right hon. Friend course, be delighted to meet him and any other interested assure me that further initiatives will link the north- colleagues to discuss them. western part of the northern powerhouse to the Yorkshire and the Humber region? Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): One hears the pious words of the Chief Secretary regarding house Danny Alexander: Under this Government, there have building, but has he not presided over the lowest level of been a number of initiatives in the Humber area that house building since the 1920s? have helped to grow the economy, not the least of which is the enormous effort that Ministers in several Departments Danny Alexander: In case the hon. Gentleman does made in attracting the Siemens investment to Hull, not remember, he was present in the last Parliament which is an incredibly important part both of creating when his party was in government and caused the most jobs in that area and of delivering our ambitions for severe economic crash that this country had experienced renewable energy. for very many decades. The housing market, of course, gets affected by the economic cycle, which is precisely Income Tax why this Government have presided over the highest level of affordable house building in this country for 3. Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): What recent 20 years. Under the hon. Gentleman’s party, the number estimate he has made of how much the reduction in the of affordable houses in this country fell by 421,000; additional rate of income tax to 45% is worth for a under this Government, it has risen by hundreds of person earning £1 million a year. [906510] thousands. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Economic Growth (The Humber) Gauke): The cost of reducing the additional rate of income tax to 45% is estimated at about £100 million a 2. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): What steps year. That is set out in table 2.2 of Budget 2013. We the Government are taking to support economic have not broken down the impact by income ranges, growth in the Humber. [906509] because there is a significant behavioural response associated with the additional rate of income tax. That behavioural The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): response is estimated in aggregate and reflected in the The Government have taken many steps to rebalance costing. the economy and strengthen every part of the United Kingdom. In the case of the Humber, the growth deal Mr McKenzie: Christmas is coming and it is a time was announced in July, building on the success of the for giving, but the truth is that this Government have city deal, which was announced in 2013. We have also been giving to millionaires for some time. The average just announced £80 million for flood defences for the tax cut to millionaires is worth £100,000 a year. Will Humber estuary. I am pleased to see that our investment the Financial Secretary confirm that that figure for the in that part of the country is working. Employment in Government’s tax giveaway to millionaires is correct? Yorkshire and the Humber is now at the highest level on How many of my constituents in Inverclyde have benefited record at 2.51 million. from that reduction in tax?

Andrew Percy: Key to economic development in east Mr Gauke: What is a fact is that the proportion of Yorkshire and north Lincolnshire are, of course, our income tax paid by the top 1% for the years since the tidal flood defences, which are so important. Last week 50p rate was cut has in every year been higher than in the Government announced that the Environment Agency any of the years in which the 50p rate was in operation. would undertake a review of the package proposed by It is this Government who have made changes to stamp myself, other local MPs and local authorities. Will the duty land tax—that was just last week—and to capital Chief Secretary ensure that Treasury and, if possible, gains tax, and who have dealt with reliefs and exemptions, Cabinet officials will also be involved in that process? It to ensure that the wealthiest play a greater share than needs to be Treasury-led, rather than EA-led, to give us they have in the past. the result we require. Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Is it not the truth that Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend makes a good people are able to change their behaviours to reduce point. The proposal by the local enterprise partnership their tax liabilities, and is it not the case that if the is incredibly important and it needs to be assessed in Government want to raise more from the wealthiest, it detail by experts at the EA. The National Audit Office is necessary to lower the rate to a point where it encourages recently commended the EA on the way in which it them to earn and to pay? carries out such appraisals. None the less, given the significance of the issue and the fact that it was announced Mr Gauke: As I said a moment or so ago, in the two as part of the national infrastructure plan, I shall years since the 50p rate was reduced to 45p, a greater make sure that Treasury officials are also involved in share has come from the top 1% than in the previous the process. three years. There is a lesson to be learned there. It is 761 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 762 probably the reason why the previous Labour Government major cuts to corporation tax, but increased growth had a 50p rate for only 35 days out of their 4,758 days in and investment in the UK mean that revenues from the office. main regime were higher last year than in 2010.

Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): Charlie Elphicke: Is my hon. Friend aware that non-oil Will the Minister rule out a further cut to the additional corporation tax receipts have risen 16% over the course rate of income tax for the top 1% of earners? Will he of this Parliament so far, compared with a rise of just rule out another tax cut for millionaires? 8% over the entirety of the previous 13 years? Does that not show that if you cut the rate, you up the take? Mr Gauke: The priority of the next Conservative [Interruption.] How will the diverted profits tax work? Government will be increasing the personal allowance to £12,500, and the rate at which higher-rate taxpayers Mr Speaker: Order. The question was simply too pay the 40p rate to £50,000 a year. The truth is that our long. The hon. Gentleman should have cut it off when focus is on ensuring that we can lift people out of he was winning, instead of going on for too long, which income tax, which is not a record of which the previous is what he then continued to do. Government can boast. Mr Gauke: It is right that we have reduced the Shabana Mahmood: I will take that as a no. The corporation tax rate. Next year, it will give us the lowest Minister has failed to rule out another tax cut for the rate in the G20. That is resulting in greater investment richest 1% of earners in our country. As he signalled in in the UK. It would certainly be a mistake to reverse his answer, the Prime Minister has made £7 billion-worth that policy, as the Labour party intends. In terms of the of unfunded tax promises for the next Parliament. We diverted profits tax, I would point out that it will help to did not find out in the autumn statement where the deal with aggressive tax avoidance. We will publish the money is coming from to pay for these promises, so draft legislation on that tomorrow, setting out the full unless the Minister can stand at the Dispatch and details of how it will operate. categorically rule out raising VAT again, will not people just conclude that the only way the Chancellor can pay Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The for his unfunded tax promises is with another Tory VAT House knows that I am an avid listener of the “Today” rise? programme. Did the Minister hear the interview this morning, which showed how ineffective it is to have this Mr Gauke: Our plans do not require us to raise taxes. great gap between the rich and the poor in our country? [Interruption.] The shadow Chief Secretary, the hon. The tax system is increasing that gap, not helping it. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), is heckling, What is he going to do about it, because it makes our but I have to say that when he was asked that question economy less efficient? on television last week, he refused to rule out raising VAT. Our plans do not require taxes to rise, unlike—I Mr Gauke: As it happens, the distributional analysis have to say—those of the Labour party. shows that our policies have narrowed the gap. The point is that we have made changes to our tax system to Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Does my hon. ensure a greater contribution from the wealthiest in Friend agree that a fair tax system should see everyone terms of stamp duty land tax and capital gains tax. We contributing to reduce the deficit, with those with the have reduced some of the reliefs and exemptions that largest earnings making the largest contribution? Am I meant some high earners did not pay taxes. I am afraid correct that the top 1% of taxpayers actually pay nearly that the idea that a 50p rate was effective in achieving 30% of all income tax receipts at present? such objectives—including raising revenue—is simply wrong. Mr Gauke: My right hon. Friend is correct in that assessment. That proportion is higher than occurred in Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Further to the Minister’s any year under the previous Labour Government or, answer on the diverted profits tax, will he confirm indeed, when the 50p rate was in place. whether it will cover businesses that run substantial operations in the UK, but that invoice from Ireland or Mr Speaker: I call Pat Glass. Not here. Luxembourg to avoid tax? Mr Gauke: We are confident that the measure will be Corporation Tax effective in targeting multinationals that use aggressive tax planning and contrived structures to avoid UK tax. 5. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What estimate he The diverted profits tax will be charged at 25% and will has made of corporation tax receipts in each year since raise more than £1 billion over the scorecard period. 2010; and if he will make a statement. [906512] Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): The current The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David corporation tax rate is the lowest in the G7 and there Gauke): Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs publishes are good reasons why that is the case. However, on annual corporation tax statistics every August. They small business Saturday last weekend, many of us were show that revenues from corporation tax, excluding the reminded of the heavy burden of business rates. Would ring-fenced oil and gas regime, were £35 billion in it not be better, instead of reducing the corporation 2010-11, £33 billion in 2011-12, £35 billion in 2012-13 tax rate further, to use the same money to reduce and £36 billion in 2013-14. The Government have delivered business rates? 763 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 764

Mr Gauke: I remind the right hon. Gentleman, who and evasion since the general election, a record number performed the role of Financial Secretary with great of people are being prosecuted, with 2,600 people having distinction, that in his time in office there were no been prosecuted in this Parliament alone? measures to reduce business rates in the way that we have done in the last two autumn statements by putting Mr Gauke: Yes, my hon. Friend is correct—we have in place a cap of 2%, bringing in a rebate for retailers substantially increased the number of prosecutions in and extending small business rate relief. This Government that area. The yield brought in by HMRC as a consequence have an excellent record on business rates—a message of its enforcement action has also increased substantially, that I am sure many hon. Members heard on small and in the autumn statement it was announced that that business Saturday at the weekend. yield is anticipated to be £26 billion in 2014-15—around £9 billion more than when we came to office. Uncollected Tax Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- 6. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): What op): The Minister has made much of what the Government estimate HM Revenue and Customs has made of the are doing on tax avoidance, but will he tell the House by amount of uncollected tax in the UK. [906513] how much tax receipts were revised down in the autumn statement? 14. Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): What estimate HM Revenue and Customs has made of the Mr Gauke: It is the case that tax receipts were revised amount of uncollected tax in the UK. [906522] down, but so was expenditure on debt interest payments. This country continues to face the major challenge of The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David living within our means, and it is important to have a Gauke): HMRC published its latest tax gap estimates Government who stick to the long-term economic plan on 16 October 2014. The tax gap in 2012-13 was estimated that delivers that. to be £34 billion, which was 6.8% of the total tax due. Cathy Jamieson: The Minister gave a very partial Jim McGovern: Last week in the autumn statement, answer because he did not mention the fact that the the Chancellor announced plans to address tax avoidance. Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that tax receipts If he and the Treasury are serious about that, why did have been revised down by £25 billion by 2018-19. Is they vote down an amendment that said that the quoted one key reason for that the fact that wage growth has eurobond—I am sorry, but I cannot quite remember the been revised down again, and that the Government’s words. They did not support that amendment, costing failure to raise living standards for working people is this country £500 million per year. why they have also failed to meet their promise to balance the books by next year? Mr Gauke: The reason we have not pursued that Mr Gauke: The answer to increasing wage growth is policy is that, having looked at it carefully, we do not not just to observe that it would be nice if wages went believe that it would raise anything like the revenue up but to have no policies to do that. If we want wage that has been suggested, nor that it would do anything growth, we need investment in the UK, which we are for the UK’s competitiveness. The Government have getting. We want more people in jobs, and a record consistently taken action on tax avoidance, tax evasion number of people are in jobs. We want to improve our and aggressive tax planning. I would happily list the training and education system, and record numbers of measures, Mr Speaker, but I suspect that you would not people are taking up apprenticeships. We want to improve allow me the time to do so. By 2015-16, we believe that our transport infrastructure, and the Government have those measures will be bringing in £7.6 billion a year. committed to the biggest road building programme since the 1970s. If we want wage growth, we must stick Sarah Champion: I thank the Minister for his answers to the long-term economic plan. to Question 5 and to these questions. Will he explain why I am fighting against funding cuts for families in Employment Statistics crisis in Rotherham because the council does not have enough Government funding to support them, while 7. Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): What recent some big companies are getting away with not paying a estimate he has made of the level of employment. penny in corporation tax? [906515] Mr Gauke: Very difficult decisions have had to be The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): made to deal with the deficit that we inherited. On the I am pleased to tell the House that employment is at its contribution from larger companies, as we have heard, highest-ever level in this country with 30.8 million people the tax take from large companies through corporation in work. Since the coalition came to power, employment tax has continued to rise and we have continued to take has increased by more than 1.7 million, meaning that measures to deal with tax avoidance. As I have said, just on average an extra person has become employed every last week, we announced that we would operate the 80 seconds since the Government were formed in 2010. diverted profits tax, the details of which will be set out Last week the Office for Budget Responsibility published tomorrow. That is an example of where the Government its latest forecast, estimating that an extra million people are taking tough, practical action to ensure that everybody will be in work by 2019. pays what is required under the law. Jackie Doyle-Price: The Government can be proud of Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Will my creating on average 1,000 jobs a day. That is not just a hon. Friend confirm that, as a result of the investment number; it is more people with the security of a job and and effort that have been put into tackling tax avoidance a regular pay packet. Will my right hon. Friend reassure 765 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 766 my constituents in Thurrock that we will stick to the on low and middle incomes. Improving work incentives policies that are creating record numbers of people in and earnings for people in work is something he should work? celebrate and everyone in the House should welcome.

Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is right. It is Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Is the Chief Secretary incredibly important that we create jobs in this country aware that in the north-east of England we have the as that is providing opportunities and incomes for people fastest rate of growth in private sector businesses in the who did not have one previously. The Government autumn quarter and the most tech start-ups outside of should be proud of that. Today the 2 millionth apprentice London? Does that not show that the long-term economic has been recruited under this Government, and the plan is beginning to work? young lady, Paige McConville of Oxford, will meet the Business Secretary to highlight that achievement. Danny Alexander: Actually, I was not aware of either of those facts, but they do not surprise me because of Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ the entrepreneurial spirit and the brilliant businesses we Co-op): Many people in my constituency who are in have in the north-east of England. I believe it is the only work are trapped in low-paid minimum wage jobs. region of this country that is a net exporter to the rest of Often they are not able to add to the hours that they the world. Through the measures we are putting in work in order to earn more, and they rely on the state place, including the investment in infrastructure, we for prop-ups with housing benefit and tax credits. When need to continue to support that part of the country. will the Chief Secretary to the Treasury understand the cost of living crisis in the country, and what will the Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Does Government do about it? the Chief Secretary agree that we need to redouble our efforts to reduce the unemployment level for young Danny Alexander: I recognise that some people find people from 730,000, and that some 1 million young themselves in the situation the hon. Lady describes, and people are still not in training or education? Does he that is precisely why we need a growing economy that think that his Government could do much more to get creates more jobs, as it does in her constituency. The them back to work? economy is creating more employment opportunities and allowing people to progress in work. The most Danny Alexander: I agree with the hon. Lady that we recent figures showed that people who have been in need to do more to reduce the level of unemployment full-time work for more than a year—85% of the jobs among our young people, but I point out to her, and it created in the past year are full time—have seen their would have been fair for her to point it out, that we have wages increase by 4%. seen a very sharp fall in the level of youth unemployment and a very sharp increase in the level of employment of young people in the past 12 months. That suggests to Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con): The UK has me that the policy mix the coalition has put in place is seen more net employment growth in the past four years precisely the right one to achieve those objectives. than the rest of the EU put together. Has the Chief Secretary also noted that, according to the same figures, High Street Retailers (Tax Levels) more of our young people are in work than in Germany, Ireland and France, and the position is far better than 8. Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): in Greece, where only one in four young people are in When he next plans to meet representatives of high work? Does that not show that we need to stay the street retailers to discuss levels of tax; and if he will course and help more of our young people into work? make a statement. [906516]

Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend is right. It is a fact The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): that the United Kingdom has created more jobs than all I met small business representatives in Inverness on the other countries in the European Union put together. Saturday as part of small business Saturday. In response That shows the success we have had in delivering economic to concerns expressed by small businesses, the Government growth by working through the balanced careful plan have taken decisive action that has reduced employment that we put in place at the start of this Parliament. She and property taxes paid by high street retailers. As of could also have mentioned the fact that female employment, April this year, businesses can claim a deduction of up at 73%, is at its highest-ever level. to £2,000 in their national insurance contributions, and next year 300,000 shops, pubs and cafes will receive a Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): A couple business rates discount of up to £1,500. with two children who are both working—the woman in part-time work on £10,000 and the man on £25,000—will Mr Bellingham: The Minister is probably not aware— have lost £9,417 in withdrawn tax credits in the autumn there is no reason why he should be—that I have recently statement. The Chief Secretary talks about putting up been visiting shops in the high streets of both King’s the threshold, but he gets much more back from the Lynn and Hunstanton. Is he aware that they are poorest. When will he pursue a progressive policy that delighted—absolutely thrilled—with the business rate makes work pay for the poorest? discount that is now being raised to £1,500? Can he give me an estimate of how many shops in my constituency Danny Alexander: I beg to differ with the hon. will benefit from that? Gentleman. The policy of increasing the income tax threshold to £10,600, which was put on the table by my Danny Alexander: I was not aware of my hon. Friend’s party the Liberal Democrats back in 2010, is putting shopping habits, but I am very glad to hear that he £825 back into the pockets of 26 million working people has been spending time with small businesses in his 767 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 768 constituency.I can tell him that in the King’s Lynn and bring in £750 million a year; it will bring in more than west Norfolk area there are 1,280 small businesses that that. By the way, that measure was opposed by the will benefit from the £1,500 discount. That is something Labour party. worth celebrating in his constituency, as it is across the country. Housing Market

Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Does the Chief Secretary 10. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) agree that a further rise in VAT would be a hammer (Lab/Co-op): What recent assessment he has made of blow to small businesses in Wrexham and across the the effect of the housing market on the economy. country? Does he also know that a Labour Government [906518] have never increased VAT? The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea Danny Alexander: I am not sure that last fact is Leadsom): The Government are committed to making absolutely correct. The level of VAT we have at the the aspiration of home ownership a reality for as many moment I think is the right one for the country and I households as possible. The Government’s Help to Buy certainly would not advocate any further increases. The scheme and last week’s stamp duty reforms will continue right measures for small businesses are the reductions in to support housing market activity and new housing business rates that we have put in place, which I would supply is already responding with housing starts growing hope the hon. Gentleman would welcome. The fundamental by 16% in the year to 2014 in quarter three. review of business rates that we are now undertaking is an opportunity for every Member of this House, and Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ small business across the country, to make the argument Co-op): The recent measures are no doubt welcome, but on how they want this outdated and outmoded system would the Minister care to confirm that annual house to be reformed. completions have been lower in every year under her Government than in every year of the last Labour Tax Avoidance Government?

9. Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): What Andrea Leadsom: The point is that we believe in the recent steps he has taken to reduce tax avoidance. aspiration to buy your own home. We have seen house [906517] prices recover but they are still in real terms lower than they were at the peak under the last Government. This The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Government have delivered housing starts at their highest Gauke): We set out the next set of steps in our plan to since 2007 and our Help to Buy scheme, which has tackle tax avoidance in the autumn statement last week. helped 77,000 people to get on to the property ladder, is We are introducing a new diverted profits tax from 1 a very important measure. April 2015 using a 25% rate to counter the use of aggressive tax planning techniques used by multinational David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I am pleased that enterprises to divert profits from the UK. We are also the Government’s stamp duty reforms are already helping strengthening the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes— more first-time buyers in Macclesfield. What assessment DOTAS—regime, coupled with a further suite of measures has my hon. Friend made of the effect the stamp duty that build on the work we have already done to tackle reform plus the Help to Buy scheme will have on marketed tax avoidance such as accelerated payments helping more people to get established on the housing of disputed tax in avoidance cases. ladder?

Stephen McPartland: My constituents work hard and Andrea Leadsom: My hon. Friend is quite right. Our pay their taxes and rightly expect other people and stamp duty changes have meant that 98% of the people businesses to do the same. Does the Minister agree that who pay stamp duty will receive a cut, which will enable the autumn statement last week showed that it is more people to get on to the housing ladder. Our Help Government Members who are serious about delivering to Buy scheme will also encourage more aspirational fairer taxes for all? young people to buy their first home.

Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is entirely right. As a Tax Credits Government, we believe in competitive taxes but we also believe in a system in which people and businesses 11. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): What pay those taxes. proportion of recipients of tax credits are in employment. [906519] Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): If the Government are serious on tax avoidance, why has 13. Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): How the much-heralded Swiss tax deal brought in only a many employed people are in receipt of tax credits. third of the projected income? [906521]

Mr Gauke: That particular measure has not brought The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): in as much as was forecast, but I can point to others that Tax credits provide financial support to low-income have brought in more than was forecast. One example is households. In April 2014 there were 3.3 million families disguised remuneration, which the Office for Budget in work receiving tax credits. That had fallen from Responsibility highlighted last week and has brought in 4.8 million in April 2010. In total there are 4.7 million more than was anticipated. We anticipated that it would families receiving tax credits, 71% of whom are in work. 769 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 770

Mr Speaker: Formally the group of questions falls if Pensioners and Savers the Member with the lead is absent but I dare say we can improvise. 15. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What steps he has taken to support people with savings and pensioners. Chris Ruane: Thousands of hard-working families [906523] in my constituency have been bit by tax credit cuts, a £300 increase in their energy bills, the bedroom tax and The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea the increase in VAT. This Government offer tax cuts to Leadsom): This Government are determined to support millionaires and porridge and food banks to low-paid savers and pensioners—unlike the last Government who workers. When will the Government allow British workers gave them miserly increases in state pensions. Since to share in the wealth of this country? 2010, we have delivered the biggest-ever increase in the individual savings account allowance and for pensioners the triple lock means that they will receive about £560 more Priti Patel: It is fair to say that this Government in 2015-16 than under the last Government’s policy. We ensure that people are better off in work, in stark have also given pensioners the freedom to choose how contrast to the failed dependency policies of the Labour and when to access their own pension. party. We are the party in government that has taken action to support people on low incomes by increasing Henry Smith: My hon. Friend is right that the previous the personal allowance, taking 3.2 million people on Administration caused the great recession, which has low incomes out of tax altogether and increasing the meant that savers in Crawley have suffered considerably. national minimum wage. We should all remember which Last week’s autumn statement proved that this Government party was responsible for the cost of living crisis; it was stand up for the aspiration of passing on savings to our Labour’s great recession. We are the Government who children. have frozen fuel duty and council tax and it is our policies that are now leading to growth in the economy. Andrea Leadsom: My hon. Friend is quite right. He will be as delighted as we are that we are now allowing Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): people to pass on their unused ISAs to their spouse or The latest figures show that the number of individuals civil partner free of tax, and their defined contribution classed as being in in-work poverty has fallen by 300,000 pension schemes are also to be free of tax to their since this Government came to office, at the same time successors. This was a great move, allowing people to as an extra 2 million people are in work. What Government decide what they do with the money they have saved measures does my hon. Friend think have contributed during their lifetimes. to this rise in people’s income? Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): Most pensioners in my constituency do not have enough savings to put Priti Patel: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. money in an ISA, but can the Minister confirm that It is fair to say that this Government are not returning owing to recent measures announced by the Government, to the failed policies of the past as seen under the those who receive the savings element of pension credit Labour party. The key measure explaining why we have will, because of its interaction with pensions, receive had so much growth in our economy is our focus on our only an 87p rise? long-term economic plan, which is securing a better future for our economy, for the country and, of course, for hard-working taxpayers. Andrea Leadsom: The hon. Lady should welcome the fact that this Government introduced the triple lock for pensioners to ensure that, instead of under the last Yasmin Qureshi rose— Government when they received only the increase in average earnings, pensioners under this Government will receive an element for inflation, average earnings or Mr Speaker: The hon. Lady’s opportunity is now. 2%, whichever is the higher. Her moment has arrived; her voice should be heard. Government Borrowing Yasmin Qureshi: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Will the Minister confirm that 10 million households will be 16. Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): affected by the two-year freeze on tax credits and benefits What recent representations he has received on the and that the average household will be £974 worse off? introduction of new fiscal rules to limit government This will hit working people the most, and women in borrowing. [906524] particular, so will the Government reconsider their position? The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea Priti Patel: I come back to my earlier point about Leadsom): The Government will shortly publish the employment increasing and more women being in work revised charter for budget responsibility, which will set than ever before. When it comes to tax credits, universal out new fiscal rules in detail. As the Chancellor said last credit will go on to replace the current complex and week, there is more to do, but our long-term economic broken system of means-tested benefits—introduced by plan is working. The deficit is forecast to fall this year, the Labour party, by the way—and we are the party that down from what the Office for Budget Responsibility has supported people to get into work and reduce described as the post-war record deficit of 10.2% of dependency rather than confining them to dependency gross domestic product in 2009-10 to 5% this year—cutting and welfare. it in half. 771 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 772

Mr Ruffley: I thank the Minister for that reply. I at autumn statement 2014 that the personal allowance commend the autumn statement, in particular chart 1.9 would be increased to £10,600 from April 2015, and this therein, which makes it clear that any Government who is being legislated for in the Finance Bill 2015. wish to reduce debts as a share of GDP to under 40% in the next 20 years will not merely have to balance the Mr Hollobone: By next May how many people does budget, but to run a surplus of 1% of GDP on the my hon. Friend estimate will have been taken out budget. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that it is of paying income tax all together in (a) Kettering, essential that new fiscal rules are created and voted on (b) Northamptonshire, and (c) the country as a whole? frequently to achieve this massively important debt reduction? Mr Gauke: By April this year the Government’s measures, including increases in the personal allowance Andrea Leadsom: My hon. Friend is right. The for those born after 5 April 1948, are estimated to have Opposition talk about balancing the books, but in fact taken about 3.4 million individuals out of the income what they are talking about is borrowing more once tax system altogether. Some 248,000 of these individuals their current budget is in surplus, and that is a complete live in the east midlands region, which of course includes fabrication, because what the Opposition need to recognise the constituency of Kettering in Northamptonshire. is that the only way to return this country to prosperity is not just to deal with the massive debt left by Labour Topical Questions but also to get our economy back into long-term growth and long-term surpluses. [Interruption.] T1. [906533] Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental Mr Speaker: Order. It is very disorderly for Members responsibilities. to yell at the Minister from a sedentary position, and I remind you, Mr Lucas, that you have still got to complete The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): your apprenticeship to become a statesman. I keep The core purpose of the Treasury is to ensure economic updating the House on progress, but there is still a little stability, promote growth and employment, reform the distance to travel. banking system and restore sanity to the public finances.

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Many people in Fiona O’Donnell: On Wednesday I asked the Chancellor work are relying on benefits just to survive, and they are about public registers of beneficial ownership in the not paying tax, all of which contributes to the reason Crown dependencies and overseas territories. He replied why the deficit has gone up more than the Minister, and that her Government when they came in, promised. Today’s “they are all consulting, right now, on the creation of these OECD report says countries that promote equality will registries.”—[Official Report, 3 December 2014; Vol. 589, c. 328.] grow and prosper. Will she accept that her Government The fact is that two are not consulting and the others have got it disastrously wrong for so many people and have all finished their consultations, although none has adopt the policies suggested by the OECD, including a published its submissions or its policies. Will the Chief higher rate of top tax? Secretary now set the record straight?

Andrea Leadsom: I find it absolutely extraordinary Danny Alexander: I will set the record straight. The that the hon. Gentleman can talk about the under- record shows that under the previous Labour Government achievement of this Government. It is not by chance the Crown dependencies and these bodies did not make that our economy is the fastest growing in the G7; it is any progress on registers of beneficial ownership. Progress not by chance that there are 2 million more people in is being substantially made now because of the lead this work in the private sector; and it is not by chance that Government showed at the G8. By the way, these same there are now 2 million apprentices, as of today. It is places have also now agreed to the automatic exchange extraordinary that the Opposition do not see that it of tax information, to make sure that for the first is all about economic recovery, not interfering and time—this is something the Government of the hon. borrowing more. Lady’s party never did—we can get tax from people who are trying to hide it in these jurisdictions. Mr Speaker: As usual we are pressed for time, but I cannot allow excessively long early questions and answers T2. [906534] Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): to deny Members who have been waiting patiently, so My constituents in Peterborough who work at Thomas we will now hear, I hope, from Mr Philip Hollobone. Cook and many families with young children will have been delighted by the announcement on children’s air Personal Tax Allowance passenger duty in last week’s autumn statement. Will the Exchequer Secretary give an undertaking that she 17. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What the will continue to monitor the impact of air passenger basic rate personal tax allowance was in May 2010; duty on tourism and the family budget and not rule out what that rate would have been in May 2015 if indexed further cuts in the near future? to inflation; and what that rate will be in May 2015. [906525] The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The reductions The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David in air passenger duty announced last week are to be Gauke): The tax-free personal allowance was £6,475 in welcomed not just by his constituents and by Thomas May 2010. It would have risen to just £7,485 by May Cook but by hard-working families across the country. 2015 through inflation, but the Government announced As with all other taxes, air passenger duty will be kept 773 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 774 under review, taking into account our commitment to all its aspects. The outline business case is currently creating sustainable public finances alongside helping with Treasury officials for scrutiny. I know that this households and, of course, the tourism industry. work is incredibly important, not least given the recent Ebola outbreak in west Africa, but it would be inappropriate Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Will for me to give any further details on the business case the Chief Secretary confirm that table 2.3 on page 67 of until the review has been completed. the autumn statement shows that total managed expenditure will fall to 35% of GDP by 2020? According to the T4. [906536] Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): I Office for Budget Responsibility, that is a level not seen am sure that those on the Government Front Bench since the late 1930s. Does he stand by the autumn will be aware of just how important the video games statement or not? industry is to Dundee and to my constituency. The Danny Alexander: The way in which the autumn Chancellor said last week that he would support statement is constructed is that the OBR is given an exports. Businesses in the video games industry are assumption about the path of the public finances over often started by university graduates with little or no the course of the whole of the next Parliament. As I financial support, yet they end up employing people. explained yesterday to readers of The Daily Telegraph— What will the autumn statement mean for the video perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not count himself as games businesses in Dundee? one of them—a neutral assumption is built into the public finances post 2017-18 which assumes that spending Danny Alexander: I absolutely recognise the importance will stay flat in real terms. That enables the OBR to of the video games industry to Dundee and other parts construct its forecast. In my view, when we have finished of the country, and indeed to many hon. Members. I do dealing with the structural deficit post 2017-18, public not know whether Candy Crush was developed in the expenditure will be able to grow faster than that. hon. Gentleman’s constituency, but it is clearly very popular in the House. The package of measures in the Chris Leslie: It does not sound as though the right autumn statement to support exporters will benefit the hon. Gentleman stands by the autumn statement much, video games industry, as will the improvements to tax Mr Speaker. On Wednesday, the chairman of the Office relief for research and development, which will particularly for Budget Responsibility wrote to the Business Secretary benefit small and medium-sized enterprises. If he has confirming that the autumn statement and all the policy further ideas for measures that might benefit that industry assumptions leading to this figure of 35% were in his area, I would be glad to hear them. “signed off by the ‘quad’”. Is the Chief Secretary still a member of the “quad”, and Mr Speaker: I know that the Chief Secretary to the is that actually true? Why is he now pretending to Treasury will not want to talk out opportunities for his distance himself from his consistent record of Tory own hon. and right hon. Friends. I call Mr Roger collaboration when he has been as thick as thieves with Williams. them in vote after vote, year after year, time and time again? T6. [906538] Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) Danny Alexander: I guess it is a tough job being (LD): On small business Saturday I visited retail shadow Chief Secretary: he has to deal with the shadow businesses in Brecon, Llanwrtydwells and Talgarth. Chancellor. I saw a quote from the previous Chancellor They told me how pleased they were with the just this weekend, in Alan Cochrane’s diaries. It said, “I employment allowance, which gave them a reduction of don’t think Miliband gets much of a look-in on the up to £2,000 in their employer national insurance economy now. He’s a difficult man, is Balls.” I guess contributions. More than 1,000 businesses benefit from that is what they mean by a zero-zero economy: one Ed that in my constituency, but up to 500 that are eligible has zero influence; the other has zero credibility. Let me have not applied. What can we do to encourage them to say this to the Labour party and to the Conservative take up this important measure? party: both of them, in different ways, are advocating relentless austerity for the whole of the next Parliament, Danny Alexander: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for and it is only the Liberal Democrats turning around the giving me the opportunity to highlight the importance public finances after 2017-18 who offer any hope of a of these changes. As a local Member of Parliament, he change in the future. has a particularly important role to play in promoting them, as he has done for the businesses already taking T3. [906535] John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Public them up. I encourage him to continue to do that and to Health England at Porton Down in my constituency is talk to the Department for Business, Innovation and at the centre of the global life sciences industry and Skills about whether there is more we can do to get that works with 250 partnerships across the globe. The message across. outline business case is currently before a number of Government Departments. Will the Minister assure me T5. [906537] Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) that the fullest range of options will be considered, (Lab): Last week, the Chancellor said: including a proposal to set up a UK centre for a global response to infectious diseases, which I believe would “What I reject is the totally hyperbolic BBC coverage on reduce the call on the British taxpayer? spending cuts. I had all that…four years ago and has the world fallen in? No”. Danny Alexander: I can assure the hon. Gentleman At my surgeries, I meet mothers dependent on food that this is an important and, I understand, sensitive banks to feed their families, fathers desperate at lost decision, which Public Health England is considering in Sure Start services, and disabled pensioners choosing 775 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 776 between heating and eating. They tell me that their coalition has done and will continue to do. The OBR’s world has fallen in. Does the Chief Secretary agree with forecast, published last week, showed that it expects the the Chancellor that they are being “hyperbolic”? UK, despite the difficulties to which the hon. Gentleman refers, to continue to have economic momentum over Danny Alexander: I am sure the hon. Lady explained the next few years. to those constituents that the severe economic problems this country is experiencing and recovering from were Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): caused on her party’s watch when it was in office. Rural communities are clearly not part of the city Although I share the view that these are difficult issues, regions and possibly will not form part of the northern I hope she would also highlight the fact that her constituency powerhouse. What assurances can the Chief Secretary has seen 5,200 jobs created in the past 12 months. give us that rural communities will benefit from the increased prosperity from the long-term economic plan? Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): The confidence to create a new business is a true barometer of the progress Danny Alexander: My hon. Friend makes an important this Government are making on the long-term economic point, although I would say to her that rural communities plan. Will the Chief Secretary join me in welcoming the are part of local enterprise partnership areas that benefit 1,000 new businesses that have been created in my from the growth deals announced last year. The city constituency in the past 12 months? What is he doing to deals and the devolution process we are engaged in encourage more people to find their entrepreneurial benefit all parts of the UK. I highlight to her the spirit? investment this Government are making in transport and in broadband as particularly important in driving Danny Alexander: The right hon. Lady is right about growth in rural communities. that, and I join her in congratulating all 1,000 of those businesses in her constituency and millions more nationwide. T9. [906542] Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): The We are talking about people who have set up their own Office for Budget Responsibility has forecast that businesses and are working hard to create wealth, jobs individual unsecured debt will rise over the next five and growth for this country. That is why a range of the years by a staggering £360 billion, which is a record tax and regulatory changes we have put in place have 55% of total household income. More people will be been designed precisely to make the UK the best place thrust into poverty and forced to go to food banks, and in the world to start and grow a business. that will not be because more of them know about them or that poor people cannot cook. Does the Chief T7. [906540] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) Secretary agree with the Chancellor that the best way (Lab): A few weeks ago, the Chancellor rushed off to to reduce his borrowing is to increase everyone else’s Europe to try to get the cap on bankers’ pay lifted. Will debts? he do the same for public sector workers, and, in particular, nurses? Danny Alexander: That same economic forecast suggests Danny Alexander: I am not sure that that is a matter that an extra 1 million people will be in work from the for discussion at a European Union level. record levels that we have at the moment; that there will be a consistent rise in real incomes over the next five Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Rebalancing the years; and that the United Kingdom has the strongest economy has been crucial in delivering the coalition economic growth of any developed country in the world Government’s economic plan. Delivering skills for the and the strongest job creation. Those are the facts about future is vital. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the the United Kingdom and the hon. Lady should welcome funding of professional careers advice must be part of them. the plan, to ensure that the growth in manufacturing is secured for the future? Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): May I put it on the record that I support the Government’s drive to create a Danny Alexander: I wholeheartedly agree with my northern powerhouse? What assurances can the Chief hon. Friend on that. He has done more than most Secretary give me that constituencies such as my own in Members of this House to promote apprenticeships, the Fylde will benefit from such a move? creation of skills and the manufacturing industry, and I pay tribute to him for his work. I ask him to look at Danny Alexander: I can honestly say to my hon. what we have said about this in the autumn statement, Friend that his constituency will benefit. It has already which contains particular measures to promote the benefited from the growth deals, and it is benefiting provision of better careers advice in schools. from investment in energy infrastructure, which is a particular interest there. It is also benefiting from the T8. [906541] Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): This transport investment, and as we take forward this agenda week, growth forecasts for the eurozone economies to improve the economy in the north of England, we have again been downgraded, but the European will ensure that every part of the north of England, Central Bank is refusing to adopt counteracting including his constituency, benefits from that process. measures of quantitative easing. What plans do the Government have for protecting Britain’s economy in Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Was the Chief the event of a full-blown euro crisis? Secretary as alarmed as I was by this morning’s comments by the Northern Ireland Attorney-General that the Danny Alexander: The best protection for the UK is Royal Bank of Scotland has been involved in “criminal to stick to the economic plan that is creating jobs and fraud” with regard to its banking treatment of those growth up and down this country. That is what the who fell behind in their mortgages? If that is the case, 777 Oral Answers9 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 778 will he make a statement to the House, telling us how he not by insignificant people but by Sir Andrew Dilnot, intends to deal with the matter so that we can bring chair of the UK Statistics Authority, the Channel 4 back certainty to customers? “FactCheck” programme and many others. On that basis, what confidence can we have that spending on The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea flood defence will increase, when it went down £200 million Leadsom): This Government take very seriously any in the first four years of this Government? accusations of wrongdoing by the banks. We will be looking at this case. As the hon. Gentleman knows, those comments have been strongly denied by RBS, and Danny Alexander: This Government’s investment in we will certainly be taking advice on the matter and flood-risk management has increased in real terms by looking into it carefully and taking appropriate action. 5% compared with spending in the previous five years. We will be spending more than £5.2 billion over the Several hon. Members rose— course of this Parliament on flood and erosion risk management compared with £2.7 billion in the previous Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Cardiff five years. That is a record of which I am proud. Central (Jenny Willott) would have been called earlier, but she was not here. She is now, and she can have a go if she prefers asking a question to talking to a Government Several hon. Members rose— Whip, albeit a distinguished Government Whip. Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry but demand always Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): Thank you, exceeds supply. Last but not least, Stuart Andrew. Mr Speaker, and my apologies. I wanted to ask about tax avoidance. At a time of falling incomes when many people are finding it difficult to make ends meet, does Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): As my right hon. the Minister agree that those on high incomes should Friend heard earlier, there is currently a connectivity avoid using expensive lawyers—if they can afford to use study on Leeds Bradford International airport. As someone them—to assist with tax avoidance? Does he share my who has been campaigning for that rail link, because hope that tax avoidance, like drink-driving, will become the road network is always so congested, may I urge him a moral taboo? to look at that study in great detail, as it will help us to contribute to that great economic powerhouse in Danny Alexander: I agree with my hon. Friend. This the north? Government have taken consistent action to tackle tax avoidance and to reduce tax evasion, raising billions of pounds to help avoid some of the pressures to which Danny Alexander: The hon. Gentleman is right to she refers. Dodging taxes is as morally reprehensible as highlight the importance of the study. We noted it in the claiming the wrong benefits or doing what she described. national infrastructure plan as something that has produced Those are all things that we, as a society, want to see some new arguments about that link. Clearly, the case stopped, and the Government are taking action to see must be developed locally, given the more devolved that they are. framework in which we are now operating. If he wants to join my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): On infrastructure West (Greg Mulholland) in the meeting that my hon. spending, the Government’s claims earlier this year that Friend suggested, I would be delighted to talk to him flood defence spending had increased were rubbished about how we can take this important project forward. 779 9 DECEMBER 2014 Points of Order 780

Points of Order seeking that greater elaboration, it is being denied to him. Sadly, it is not within the power of the Chair to prescribe the level of expansiveness of ministerial replies. 12.34 pm I can say only two things: first, Ministers should attend to the terms of the question and seek to inform, Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On rather than to avoid informing; and secondly, the right a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are very concerned hon. Gentleman is both a doughty fighter and a cerebral about good behaviour in this Chamber, but I think you character, so he will know that there are many ways of share my view of the importance of good behaviour in achieving one’s objective. If seeking the information Select Committees, too. Is it not time that we had some through written answers does not avail him, he can sort of rules on the use of electronic gizmos in Select always seek an Adjournment debate on the matter, and Committees? Otherwise, the House of Commons will the ballot being operated in the Speaker’s Office might fall into disrepute if, during an important Work and yield fruit for the right hon. Gentleman. We will leave it Pensions Committee hearing, a Member of Parliament there for now. is seen to be playing electronic games. Could we make it clear that the use of electronic devices at certain times, Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): On a point of both here and in Select Committees, is not appropriate? order, Mr Speaker. I know that you are an avid listener to everything that happens in this place, and you will, Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for like me, have noticed that the Chief Secretary to the his point of order, the answer to which is as follows. Treasury has admitted that he only believes in collective There are rules on these matters. I think it is fair to say responsibility a little bit, and it is pretty evident that it that it is quite within the competence, in the literal sense might not last until May. Would you, Mr Speaker, find of that term, of the Chair of the Committee to take the appropriate words to describe what is happening to charge of the matter and to rule accordingly. Therefore the Government? Do you, like me, think that the Lib the expression of legitimate interest by a Member of Dems are preparing to leave the Government before 35 years’ standing in the House is greatly appreciated, May and the general election, or do you think they are but I imagine that although the Chair of the Committee going to hang on? Do you, the Speaker, have any will be encouraged to enjoy the hon. Gentleman’s support, responsibility for people who do not really believe in he or she is probably able to handle the matter without Government, but do so only a little bit? Can the Speaker further assistance—but the point is on the record, and I comment? You have access to all those wonderful words, thank him. so I give you a chance.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): On a point of his point of order. In the run-up to elections there tends order, Mr Speaker. Can you assist me in obtaining from to be a degree of spontaneous creativity on the part of the Department for Work and Pensions information individual members of different parties. My first point which I have been trying to obtain for over a year? In a to the hon. Gentleman is that there is a coalition written answer in March last year, the then Employment Government; it is somewhat different from previous Minister told me that the amount of jobseeker’s allowance animals. My second point is that the hon. Gentleman withheld in fixed sanctions had gone up more than ought to know me well enough to know that my ambitions tenfold between the election and October 2012. In October do not stretch to a detailed interpretation of ministerial 2012, a new, harsher, sanctions regime was introduced, nuance. My preoccupation is with Arsenal playing and I have been trying to obtain an updated answer to Galatasaray tonight. The third point I would make to my question ever since. I have been given various reasons the hon. Gentleman on the strength of my respect for why the question cannot be answered, none of which I his 44 years’ uninterrupted service in the House is that think is convincing. Can you give me advice or assistance on Sunday afternoon I hugely enjoyed finishing reading in obtaining the information I seek? his autobiography, and shortly my copy will wing its way to the hon. Gentleman in the hope that he might be Mr Speaker: I fear that the right hon. Gentleman, in gracious enough to sign it for me. his point of order, may be investing me with powers and wisdom that, sadly, the Chair does not possess. I do not Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): On a point of think he will object to my communicating to the Chamber order, Mr Speaker. In my question to the Treasury I the fact that he has sent me a substantial academic essay may have inadvertently named the Royal Bank of Scotland on the matter, which I had the opportunity this morning instead of the Bank of Scotland, and I would like to set to digest. The nub of the matter is that the right hon. the record straight. Gentleman received what he regarded as a more expansive and informative answer to a previous question; he is Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has achieved his now displeased that, on tabling a similar question and objective, and we are grateful to him. 781 9 DECEMBER 2014 Funeral Services 782

Funeral Services funeral payments social fund system, and by introducing a simple funeral. The reason for an overarching review Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order is the huge number of factors that contribute to rising No. 23) funeral costs. We need to consider the amount of burial space available, how deaths are registered, the impact of 12.40 pm competition between private and local authority crematoria, and the benefits system that supports those who are Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): I beg unable to afford a service. Addressing affordability will to move, require careful thought and collaboration between several That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of Departments, so the issue needs cross-departmental State to undertake a review of funeral affordability and costs; to consideration. require the providers of funeral services to offer a simple funeral service; to require the Secretary of State to make certain arrangements The review would need input from those working in relating to funeral payments; and for connected purposes. the funeral sector. Funeral directors, for example, are Losing a loved one can be one of the most devastating seeing their costs rise because of flaws in the funeral experiences we face. Everyone who loses someone close payment system. The amount that can be awarded to them wants to give them a decent send-off, but sadly towards what are called “other funeral expenses”, which fewer and fewer people are now able to afford even a include directors’ fees, is capped at £700. This amount basic funeral. We do not hear a lot about this problem: was set more than a decade ago and has not risen with because of its deeply personal nature, funeral poverty inflation, so it has not kept up with funeral directors’ remains taboo. Today I am proposing measures to end own costs. This means that directors are seeing customers that taboo and to ensure that no one has to endure the who cannot pay the full cost of a service. agony of worrying about funeral costs at the same time The National Association of Funeral Directors tells as grieving. me that many of its members are now offering funerals A report released this month by Royal London shows on credit, with no guarantee that the client will be able that of the 500,000 families who are bereaved each year, to pay back the full amount. Even those who can pay one fifth struggle to afford the cost of a funeral. This is face the difficulty of having to return to their funeral a problem that will only get worse, as the price of a director every week to pay back the cost of the funeral service is accelerating far faster than inflation. Royal in instalments. This is unsustainable, it is awful for those London’s research shows that the average cost is now families, it puts businesses at risk and it can lead to £3,551 pounds, nearly twice the level of a decade ago. higher charges, which are eventually passed on to customers. Depending on where someone lives, and the availability This is just one example of a serious flaw in the funeral of burial space, costs can approach £7,000. The rising market, and that is why the review proposed in the Bill cost of a service, alongside squeezed household incomes would need to include consultation with funeral directors, and a failing system of state support, means that many local authorities and other interested parties to look at people have to borrow from friends or family, sell affordability as a whole. possessions or take on credit card or payday loan debt Outside the overarching review there are measures to make up the shortfall. This often means finding that could make a difference to funeral poverty right themselves in serious financial difficulty. now. The state support available through social fund One woman from my area approached the citizens funeral payments is long overdue for reform. These are advice bureau with unmanageable debts. She had been payments available through the Department for Work unable to get the money together to pay for a headstone and Pensions, which are supposed to help those on low for her brother’s grave. She ended up applying for a incomes with the cost of a funeral, but the system does payday loan, and the cost of repaying this debt quickly not function well and even encourages some households got out of control. Sadly, her story is not an isolated to get into debt. Applications are lengthy and confusing, one. Royal London estimates that 110,000 people are especially for someone who is just bereaved, and the living with funeral debt, with each person owing over outcome may take 17 days. The DWP requires an £1,300 on average. People are also turning to alternatives invoice to process a claim, which means that people to the traditional funeral. Some are holding do-it-yourself who want to arrange a funeral quickly must agree their funerals, and even having to bury relatives in their back costs before they know whether they qualify for help. garden. A number of companies are offering cut-price This is worrying when we know that 50% of claims are funerals, including “direct” cremations that have no rejected—about 30,000 a year. These people will have formal service attached to them. bought a funeral service under the impression that they Increasingly, bereaved individuals who simply cannot qualify for help, only to be rejected and left with thousands afford a formal service are faced with having to opt for a of pounds of costs that they cannot pay. public health funeral, or what used to be referred to as Changes to the way the system is run, such as removing a pauper’s funeral. When nobody else is able to take the requirement for an invoice, could reduce the number responsibility for handling a person’s remains, the local of rejected claims, by allowing people to check their authority has to step in. People have no control over the eligibility before they commit to funeral costs. This service, and of course there is a cost to the local authority would help them make a more informed decision about as well. the kind of funeral they can afford, and it would help My Bill has two main objectives. The first is to them avoid debt. The DWP needs to look at how it identify ways of reducing funeral costs by requiring the could streamline the way such claims are processed so Secretary of State to conduct an over-arching review of that decisions are made more quickly. funeral affordability in the UK. The second is to take The second measure is the creation of a “simple immediate steps to help hard-pressed households facing funeral”, which would help people buying a service to funeral poverty, via specific measures to reform the understand how much they can expect to pay, and help 783 Funeral Services 9 DECEMBER 2014 784

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck] Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill them make sure they do not pay more than they should. [Relevant documents: Oral evidence taken before the At present many people do not have a good idea of how Home Affairs Committee on 3 December 2014, on the much a funeral should cost, and this measure would Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, HC 838; written help them make a judgment about the kind of service evidence to the Home Affairs Committee, on the Counter- they want. Funeral directors would be required to let Terrorism and Security Bill, reported to the House on people know how much a simple service would cost if it 3 December 2014, HC 838; oral evidence taken before the was bought through them. This would not stop people Joint Committee on Human Rights on 26 November choosing the service they want; it would just be a clear, 2014, on counter-terrorism and human rights; written easily understandable option available if they wanted it. evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, on A simple funeral is already offered by many funeral counter-terrorism and human rights, reported to the House directors. It helps people make an important decision at on 26 November 2014, HC 836; oral evidence taken a difficult time in their lives, and it helps them choose a before the Joint Committee on Human Rights on 3 December funeral that is affordable and right for them. It should 2014, on the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill; and be available to everyone. written evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, on the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill, reported to These measures could make an immediate difference the House on 3 December 2014, HC 859.] to the households that already struggle with funeral Considered in Committee poverty, but the motion needs to be the start of a bigger conversation about how we plan for the future. We need to talk about addressing a failing benefits system, a lack [DAME DAWN PRIMAROLO in the Chair] of burial space, and challenges facing the sector overall. But we also want to encourage members of the public Clause 12 to have conversations about planning for the future and how to make sure that there is money set aside to pay TPIMS: OVERNIGHT RESIDENCE MEASURE for their funeral. I understand that these are difficult conversations, but they are important ones, and I hope 12.51 pm that today’s motion can break the silence on funeral Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I poverty. I commend it to the House. beg to move amendment 4, on page 8, line 11, leave out Question put and agreed to. subsection (3). This would remove the 200-mile limit on the Home Secretary’s Ordered, ability to relocate people. That Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck, Steve Rotheram, Ian The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Mearns, Julie Hilling, Meg Munn, Pat Glass, Ian Lucas, (Dame Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient Andy McDonald, Mr David Anderson, Graeme Morrice, to discuss the following: Jim Shannon and Sir Peter Bottomley present the Bill. Clauses 12 and 13 stand part. Amendment 7, in clause 14, page 9, line 33, at end Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck accordingly presented the insert— Bill. ‘6B Regulated Activity Measure Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on (1) The Secretary of State may impose on the individual Friday 23 January 2015 and to be printed (Bill 133). restrictions on taking part in regulated activity relating to— (a) vulnerable adults; (b) children; or (c) both. (2) In this section “Regulated Activity” is as defined in Schedule 4 of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Adults Act 2006.’. This amendment would allow the Secretary of State to prevent an individual on a TPIM working (including voluntary work) with children or vulnerable adults or both. Clause 14 stand part. Amendment 6, in clause 15, page 10, line 8, at end insert— ‘(3) Appointments required under subsection (1) may include appointments with persons involved in delivering programmes established under Part 5, Chapter 2 of the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2014.’. This amendment would make clear that the Secretary of State can instruct an individual on a TPIM to attend de-radicalisation programmes. Clauses 15 and 16 stand part. Diana Johnson: Part 2 of the Bill relates to terrorism prevention and investigation measures. This grouping includes clauses 12 to 16 as well as Labour’s amendments, 785 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 786 so I intend to use my contribution to address all the prosecutions for terrorist-related activity there have been issues concerning TPIMs in part 2. The amendments for individuals on TPIMs. Like the hon. Lady, I understand are all probing, as we are broadly supportive of the that there has not been one successful such prosecution. changes the clauses introduce, especially the U-turn on David Anderson has commented that the TPIMs regime relocation powers, which clause 12 reintroduces. has not aided the prosecution of individuals, and the The Home Secretary introduced TPIMs in the first Joint Committee on Human Rights has stated that it Session of this Parliament to replace Labour’s control “failed to find any evidence that TPIMs have led in practice to orders. She claimed at the time that that was a fundamental any more criminal prosecutions of terrorism suspects.” rebalancing of security and liberty. In fact, there were All three of the prosecutions attempted in 2012 for only two major differences between control orders and breaching the conditions of TPIM orders collapsed. TPIMs, or control orders-lite, as they have been called: When Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed absconded, he the relocation power and the two-year limit. She also had just answered bail on 20 charges relating to breaches said that she had been forced to introduce TPIMs of his TPIM. Some of those breaches lay on the file for because too many control orders were being challenged 18 months. Given that prosecutions were meant to be a in the courts. Although judicial oversight was of course priority, as the Government had said on numerous a key element of the control orders regime, the courts occasions, perhaps the Minister can explain why he had continued to find that control orders, including the thinks there was such a delay in taking that case to power to relocate, were both necessary and proportionate court and whether the Government actually opposed in a number of cases, included all those that were later Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed being granted bail. Will transferred to TPIMs. he also confirm how he believes the changes proposed I think that every Member of this House would agree in part 2 will deliver what he had attempted to do when that it is always better to prosecute individuals, wherever the TPIMs regime first came in—secure more prosecutions? possible, for terrorist offences. No one wants TPIMs or The number of people on TPIMs, as with control control orders; we would all much rather see prosecutions orders, has remained very small, but they are believed to for those involved in terrorism activity. However, in a pose a serious threat. There were nine people on the very small number of cases evidence is inadmissible, for control orders regime when it ended in January 2012, all example because it would compromise security, and of whom were British citizens, and the Crown Prosecution therefore prosecutions cannot be brought. That means Service has consistently said that none of them could be we need an alternative measure to deal with the threat prosecuted. All those individuals were transferred to those individuals pose. TPIM orders, and another individual was subsequently put on a TPIM order. We believe that there is currently just one person on a TPIM order. It would be helpful Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Does if the Minister could confirm that when he speaks. the hon. Lady recognise that TPIMs have never led to a terrorism-related prosecution and that they are therefore There are other concerns about the TPIMs regime. In not only against human rights, but counter-productive January 2014, the Joint Committee on Human Rights and ineffective? stated: “We are left with the impression that in practice TPIMs may be withering on the vine as a counter-terrorism tool of practical Diana Johnson: If the hon. Lady will bear with me, I utility”. will move on to that point shortly, because one of the claims that the Government made was that the new I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to regime would lead to more prosecutions. those comments and how he feels that part 2 will deal with some of the criticisms raised. It is worth remembering that we are talking about a very small number of individuals, but they pose a I now turn to clause 12 and the issue of relocation, serious danger to the public and we need some powers and amendment 4. As I said, the key difference between to manage that risk. David Anderson QC, the independent control orders and the TPIMs regime was the power of reviewer of terrorism legislation, has made it clear that relocation, which was removed. It is helpful to give those who are subject to TPIM notices are accused of specific examples of how the relocation power was used terrorist activities under the control orders regime and the effects of the changes introduced by the coalition through the TPIMs “at the highest end of seriousness, even by the standards of legislation. international terrorism.” TPIMs are a set of restrictions imposed on an individual who is suspected of, but has not been convicted for, 1pm involvement in terrorism. A TPIM order, like a control I want to refer to two particular cases, the first of order, is imposed at the behest of the Home Secretary, which is that of Ibrahim Magag. Magag is a British with judicial oversight, but can be appealed to the High national with links to Somalia. He was previously known Court, which must find that the TPIM and all the as BX. He was first placed on a control order in measures it includes are both necessary and proportionate. October 2009, when Lord Justice Collins ruled: When the Government scrapped the control order “it is too dangerous to permit him to be in London even for a regime, they argued that their new regime would allow short period”. more suspects to be prosecuted—this relates to the Magag was a member of a UK-based network linked to point just made by the hon. Lady. The Security Minister terrorism in east Africa, as was the other person I want has repeatedly said that the aim of the regime was to comment on, Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed. According to secure more prosecutions and that extra resources to High Court papers from 2010, Mr Magag had a were being provided to achieve that. I wonder whether history of tampering with his monitoring equipment he could confirm today exactly how many successful and lying about why he was late reporting home for 787 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 788 night-time curfew, and he had used a computer in terrorist-related activity. In his annual report on terrorism breach of the terms of an order designed to protect in 2011, he said of relocation: national security. Despite this, the surveillance of Magag “those changes…are unlikely to further the requirements of national seems to have been fairly lax. He was able to abscond security—rather the reverse.” simply by getting into a black cab on Boxing day 2011, and has not been seen since. He started off on a control When Stuart Osborne, the deputy assistant commissioner order that included the relocation power, was moved on of the Metropolitan police and senior national co-ordinator to a TPIM, and managed to disappear. for terrorism investigations at the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave evidence to the Terrorism Prevention Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed is also a British citizen and Investigation Measures Bill Committee, he said: with links to Somalia. He was previously known as CC, and is closely associated with fellow TPIM suspect CF. “Previously, with relocation, it was easy to identify the environment in which associations may happen. If a lot of people who are on When he was first placed on a control order, the judge the orders live in one close environment, managing that and described the national security case against him as looking at those associations is potentially more difficult.”––[Official “overwhelming”. Mohamed was first placed on a control Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Public Bill Committee, order by the current Home Secretary, and that included 21 June 2011; c. 4, Q3.] a relocation provision. A year later, James Eadie QC, acting for the Home Secretary, argued: He went on to say: “Notwithstanding that CC and CF have now been subject to “The relocation issue has been very useful for us being able to controls for longer than a year, it cannot be said that either of monitor and enforce at the current time. Without that relocation, them has renounced his commitment to terrorism, nor has the and depending on where people choose to live, that could be passage of time significantly diminished the risk they present.” significantly more difficult.”––[Official Report, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2011; Mohamed absconded by putting on a burqa while c. 5, Q10.] inside a mosque, where he also apparently removed his tag. He had a long history of tampering with his G4S- Labour opposed removing the relocation element provided tag. On the morning before he absconded, he from the TPIMs regime. My right hon. Friend the had appeared in court charged with 20 counts of tampering Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford with the tag and breaching the terms of his order. (Yvette Cooper), the shadow Home Secretary, made a Despite this, he was granted bail and does not appear to powerful case for its retention, as did several other right have been under any direct surveillance. It now also hon. and hon. Members, including my right hon. Friend seems that the Home Office had neglected to seize the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), a Mohamed’s British passport when he was placed on a former counter-terrorism Minister and a member of the TPIM, despite this being the normal practice. In evidence Intelligence and Security Committee; my right hon. to the Home Affairs Committee, Charles Farr, Home Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), a Office director of the Office for Security and Counter- former Home Office Minister and member of the ISC; Terrorism, said: and the late Paul Goggins, another former Home Office Minister and member of the ISC. They all recognised “when a TPIM is issued it is standard practice for the subject of that relocation is important because TPIM suspects the TPIM to have his passport withdrawn and it is surrendered to tend to be facilitators and organisers, and the danger the police and held by the police. In this particular case, an assumption was incorrectly made that that had happened in the they pose is diminished by removing them from their case of Mr Mohammed.” networks. Once individuals return to London, it is impossible to monitor all their contacts. That makes When the Government introduced TPIMs, they removed absconding more likely, as shown by the cases of Ibrahim the relocation provision, against the advice of many Magag and Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed, as well as learned individuals, including the former Conservative involvement in terrorist planning. Home Secretary, the noble Lord Howard, who said: “If you ask me my personal view…I would have preferred the Let us be clear about this: no individual absconded relocation provisions to have remained.” while subject to a relocation order. The Minister might say that in the early days of control orders there were Lord Carlile QC, the Liberal Democrat peer and former cases of absconding, and that is correct, but at that time independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, said: relocation was not part of the control orders regime. “With my experience from the beginning of control orders until early this year, I wonder why we are troubling to replace a In a letter to the Home Secretary dated 12 November functioning system with another that has almost entirely the same 2013, the shadow Home Secretary said: arms, body and legs, but…there is one leg missing from the Bill, “No terror suspect under a relocation order ever managed to and for now, in my view, it gives this legislation a distinct limp. It abscond. Now two terror suspects who were previously relocated is the continuing power to order relocation, subject, of course, to and then returned because of your decision have absconded. Your the usual court procedures. On the evidence available, I am decision, against advice and warnings, to end relocations has persuaded firmly—I choose my words carefully—to the view that made it much easier for two dangerous men to disappear.” it would be negligent to remove relocation from the main provisions.” She continued: He went on to say that the fact that “You told Parliament explicitly that under the new regime, “Magag did not abscond while subject to a judicially approved ‘forcible relocation will be ended…They will have greater freedom relocation order, and that he absconded when that was removed, to associate’. is in itself clear evidence of the poor decision to remove relocation orders…nobody absconded while subject to a relocation order.” In Parliament you argued the purpose of TPIMs was about David Anderson QC said: ‘re-striking the balance between national security and civil liberties’. You also claimed that TPIMs would allow suspects to ‘take part “The possibility of relocation has now been removed. That in what is regarded as normal activity’ through a system that step was not required by the courts…which had indeed shown ‘clearly provides no power for individuals to be relocated to themselves generally supportive of relocation as a deterrent to” another part of the country’. 789 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 790

After the absconding of Ibrahim Magag, you said to MPs ‘I Diana Johnson: The Minister is shaking his head. It am confident in the TPIM package that was available—the TPIM would be interesting to hear his views about the resources measures plus the extra resources’. You were also asked seven available to carry out surveillance and what additional times whether removing relocation had weakened the controls, resources might be needed for the relocation power and seven times you defended the regime.” proposed in the Bill. She concluded: I want to turn to the practical issues involved when “As a consequence of your decision, Mr Mohamed’s family someone is subject to a TPIM, and where they would have said: ‘It was a lot worse when he [Mr Mohamed] was on a actually live. Clause 12 allows for the Secretary of State control order’, said a close relative. ‘They used to follow him. But to provide a residence, but there is no requirement. now [under a TPIM] it was more laid-back.’ So laid-back that he Presumably, the Home Secretary would find somewhere and his associate Ibrahim Magag, have both been able to easily abscond.” for an individual to live if they did not have a place to stay. What would be a local authority’s responsibilities We therefore very much welcome the reintroduction of if there was a power of relocation several miles away relocation in clause 12, which amends the overnight from where the individual usually resides? Would local residence measure and allows the Home Secretary to councils have a responsibility to provide accommodation? require individuals to live in a residence and locality in What standard of accommodation would the Minister the United Kingdom that she considers appropriate. I expect to be provided to somebody subject to a TPIM want to ask the Minister a few questions about the relocation order? What type of accommodation would clause. it be? Would the Home Secretary consider a prison to Clause 12 amends paragraph 1 of schedule 1 to the be a suitable place to accommodate an individual? If Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act the individual lives in the private rented sector, who 2011 to provide that the Secretary of State may either would meet the costs of that accommodation? Would agree with an individual a locality in which that individual the individual be able to make a claim for and obtain must reside or require an individual to live in a residence housing benefit? Concerns have also been raised in the in a locality that the Secretary of State otherwise considers past about immediate close family members, including appropriate. If there are premises that are the individual’s children, young children, husbands and wives. Would own residence at the time when the TPIM notice is accommodation be provided for them? imposed, the Secretary of State may require the individual to live in a residence that is more than 200 miles from 1.15 pm those premises only if the individual agrees. Clause 12(5) Our amendment 4 seeks to probe the 200-mile limit provides that the specified residence may be provided by on the Home Secretary’s ability to relocate people. Why the Secretary of State, but there is no requirement that has the Minister chosen 200 miles, which is an arbitrary it must be. figure? What if the person subject to a TPIM order I wonder if the Minister can help me with a few lived in Newcastle and the suitable accommodation that issues. We have established that, in essence, the clause the Home Office had available was in Cornwall, which restores a power of relocation to the TPIM regime, for is more than 200 miles away? What does the Minister which Labour and others have been calling for several think about the practicalities of a 200-mile limit? years. We accept that the Government have reintroduced There is no requirement for the Home Secretary to a relocation power, but, under the clause as drafted, the agree a locality, but the courts may determine whether individual can be sent either to an agreed locality or, if the Home Secretary has acted proportionately if the they do not agree, to a locality that is up to 200 miles individual requests a locality and the Home Secretary from their residence. disregards it. That locality agreement is not in the Bill, Do the Government now accept that TPIMs without so will the Minister explain why not? Will he also relocation powers were of limited value? Why have they address the issue of compensation, which has been decided to make this decision at this time when, as I raised in one of Liberty’s briefings? It is concerned that have said, it appears that only one person is currently where a relocation order may be quashed, a compensation subject to a TPIM order? Is the Minister concerned claim could be payable. Does the Minister believe that about other people whom he thinks should be relocated? to be correct, and could it actually happen? If so, why are they not already subject to the existing Clause 13(1) and (2) amend section 2 of the TPIMs TPIMs legislation? We know that TPIMs are imposed Act to provide that the Secretary of State must publish only when there is specific intelligence—hard evidence—that factors that he or she considers are appropriate to take the person is a threat. They are not a general power to into account when deciding whether to impose restrictions be used as and when we choose; they are specific and we under paragraph 2 of schedule 1 to the TPIMs Act. recognise the importance of getting this right. Why is Factors could include proximity to airports, prohibited this change required now? What has happened to make associates and other TPIM subjects, and the variety and the Minister feel that he needs to reintroduce the measure? number of services within the restricted area. Clause 13(3) and (4) amend section 23 of the TPIMs Act, which makes The Minister has said that additional resources would it an offence, without reasonable excuse, to contravene a be made available under the TPIMs regime because of measure. Clause 13(3) provides that an individual subject the additional surveillance activity that would have to to a travel measure under paragraph 2 of schedule 1 to be carried out when relocation was not available. Have the TPIMs Act who leaves or travels outside the United the costs of that surveillance become prohibitive, and is Kingdom will not be able to rely upon a defence of that why the Minister is moving towards relocation? “reasonable excuse”. Why has the Minister decided to remove the defence The Minister for Security and Immigration (James of “reasonable excuse” at this point? It seems that that Brokenshire) indicated dissent. should have been done some time ago, as it is very hard 791 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 792 to leave the country without meaning to do so. Will the I assumed that it was an offence to possess explosives Minister explain why that was not in the original legislation and offensive weapons, so I wonder why that has to be before everyone started to abscond? I hope I am correct spelled out in this part of the Bill. Is a person subject to in thinking that the ability to claim “reasonable excuse” a TPIM who has access to kitchen knives in their still applies for a person who has to travel within the residence—a kitchen knife that someone takes out of a UK if, for example, there is a family emergency, such as residence and carries around could be seen as an offensive a child being taken seriously ill. Perhaps the Minister weapon—in breach of their TPIM under the clause? I could confirm that. want to be clear about that because the provision may Clause 13(4) increases the custodial penalty on conviction be confusing and worrying for members of the public. on indictment of contravening the travel measure from Our amendment 7 relates to activities that can be a term not exceeding five years’ imprisonment to one undertaken by a person subject to a TPIM. The Minister not exceeding 10 years. Liberty said in its briefing: is likely to say that the change on firearms has to be spelled out because it is being added to an exhaustive “Criminalisation of those that breach an Executive imposed civil sanction turns our justice system on its head.” list. The amendment would give the Home Secretary another power on the exhaustive list to prevent a person Will the Minister respond to that point? subject to a TPIM from having access to children, Clause 13(5) amends paragraph 2 of schedule 1 to the young people or vulnerable adults by making such TPIMs Act. Under the travel measure in the Act, the access a regulated activity. Secretary of State may impose restrictions on a person The Disclosure and Barring Service makes sure that to prevent them from leaving a specified area, which people who are a threat or a concern to the authorities could be Great Britain, Northern Ireland or the United cannot have access to children, young people or vulnerable Kingdom. That change allows the Secretary of State to adults in a school setting or a regulated activity. Does impose restrictions on an individual to prevent them the Minister think it appropriate for a TPIM suspect to from leaving a specified area, which may be either the apply to be a school governor, and should the DBS have United Kingdom or any area within the United Kingdom, a view about that? Equally, is it appropriate for a TPIM in which the individual’s place of residence is located. suspect to volunteer at a youth club, youth centre or The restrictions imposed may include a requirement not school? Should the DBS have access to information to leave a specified area without receiving permission about whether someone is subject to a TPIM? Exactly from or, as the case may be, giving notice to the Secretary what information about a TPIM is flagged up to the of State. DBS: is it given that specific information, or is it referred to an officer in one of the counter-terrorism units We accept that the travel restriction seems sensible, around the country? but there is no point in moving someone from east London to Norwich or Ipswich if they can return to People will be interested in that matter, especially east London every day, so it is important that the Bill whether those on TPIMs can have access to schools and state how specific an area the provision will apply to. youth clubs. In fact, should schools and youth clubs be Will the Minister explain how the restriction will work? made aware that such a person should not volunteer or What size and type of travel restriction will be used? work with young people? That all relates to amendment 7, Will the restriction be on leaving an area as small as a which is a probing amendment. village, or will it be a bigger geographical area, such as a town or even a county? Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I am certainly not an expert on this area, but is the shadow Minister suggesting Clause 14 allows the Secretary of State to impose on that an organisation’s standard Criminal Records Bureau an individual subject to a TPIM notice prohibitions on check fails to pick up the people to whom she is referring? making an application for a firearm or shotgun certificate, or on possessing an imitation firearm, offensive weapons Diana Johnson: That is the very question I am asking. or explosives. That all seems sensible, and many people The Disclosure and Barring Service obviously keeps will be surprised to find that that has to be set out in the records of people who should not have access to children Bill. They would be concerned because it seems strange in a regulated activity, such as working as a teacher in a for those subject to TPIMs to be able to apply to their school. However, because of the coalition’s changes, local police force for firearms and shotgun licences. volunteering at a school is not considered a regulated In its brief, Liberty states: activity, so no information would necessarily be given by the DBS. Most people would be concerned if someone “It is entirely sensible that people the authorities suspect of subject to a TPIM had access to young people. Will the involvement in terrorism do not have access to firearms but it is also a revealing indictment of the internal chaos of the regime Minister help us to be clear about what exactly that and lack of monitoring that the Home Secretary fears a firearms means? certificate may be granted by police.” Clause 15 allows the Secretary of State to require an Will the Minister share with the Committee why that individual to attend meetings with such persons as the issue has arisen? Have people subject to TPIMs been Secretary of State may specify, at such locations and at trying to obtain firearms licences from police forces up such times as the Secretary of State may by notice and down the land? It would be helpful if the Committee require. The specified persons may choose the time and understood what information police forces have access place of the meeting. to. Does a firearms licensing officer know whether We think that clause 15 is rather vague and very someone applying for a licence is subject to a TPIM? Is broad, and we have tabled a probing amendment. that information on the police national computer? How Amendment 6 is designed to tie down the clause on the does a police officer or firearms licensing officer find specific issue of Channel—the de-radicalisation programme out about that person’s background? —which we will come on to later. It is important that 793 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 794 the Secretary of State can make people attend Channel The courts have ruled on a number of occasions that meetings and appointments, and possibly those relating internal exile, in conjunction with the imposition of other to other parts of the Prevent programme. The probing restrictions, constitutes a violation of article 5 of the amendment is an attempt to tease out exactly what such European convention on human rights. That stands appointments are about. We certainly think that the whether someone is relocated 50 miles, 150 miles or appointments such a person is required to attend should 250 miles away from their home. In one case, Mr Justice cover the Channel and Prevent programmes. Mitting ruled that, on the basis of evidence provided by Clause 16(1) amends section 3(1) of the TPIM Act so the wife of the individual who was subject to a control that, to meet condition A, the Secretary of State must order, the threat that the detainee posed would be be reduced if he were able to remain with his family. That “satisfied, on the balance of probabilities,” brings us to the crux of the matter. There is not a scrap of evidence that such a brutal and punitive regime plays that an individual is or has been involved in terrorism-related a role in countering terrorism. In fact, it may well be activity. That changes the current wording for the test counter-productive. under condition A, which is that “the Secretary of State reasonably believes that the individual is, When a suspect is subjected to a TPIM, it tips them or has been, involved in terrorism-related activity”. off, making it much more difficult to gather evidence of As I have set out at great length, the Secretary of terrorism-related activity. TPIMs exacerbate the potential State spent four years arguing that relocation was for increased alienation and radicalisation, because they unnecessary and impossible, because courts kept overruling can be made against those who pose no direct threat to it. We know that the independent reviewers of terrorism the British public. Moreover, as Liberty and others have legislation have always taken a different view on that reported, and as the shadow Minister just said, TPIMs point. The relocation power is now being reintroduced, have never led to a terrorism-related prosecution. If the and the Home Secretary has toughened up the test. purpose of such proposals is to counter terrorism and make us more secure, TPIMs have little to recommend I want to make it clear that Opposition Members them and neither did control orders before them. I have always been comfortable with having robust oversight believe that we should move forward, rather than take a of TPIMs, because we think that good and strong step backwards, as the amendment would have us do. evidence—such evidence ensures that TPIMs are used only in exceptional cases—would pass the test the Home Clause 13 removes the defence of a reasonable excuse Secretary is now introducing in clause 16. It is important for those who breach a TPIM and leave the UK. The not only to have such a test, but to continue to have measures in the Bill undermine some of the basic tenets judicial oversight so that TPIMs are always considered of our justice system. Clause 13 will allow for somebody in the courts. to be imprisoned for up to 10 years for breaching a TPIM, even though a TPIM can be imposed without 1.30 pm any need for them to be arrested, charged or convicted for a terrorism offence. In other words, it will allow Finally, clause 16(2) amends section 4 of the TPIMs somebody to be criminalised and locked up for 10 years Act so that, for the purposes of that Act, for breaching a civil sanction. That move will turn our “involvement in terrorism-related activity does not include conduct justice system on its head. It is at odds with everything which gives support or assistance to individuals who are known we ought to hold dear. I hope that Members will not or believed by the individual concerned to be involved in conduct which facilitates or gives encouragement to the commission, stand by and let such a draconian measure pass. preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism, or which is intended One former Law Lord, referring to the control order to do so.” regime, said: Will the Minister explain why he feels that measure is “They are, and always have been, a blot on our jurisprudence.”— appropriate at this time? Most people would be surprised [Official Report, House of Lords, 3 March 2010; Vol. 717, c. 1528.] to hear that somebody who is involved in supporting and assisting terrorism-related activity might not be That criticism stands, with or without the changes that subject to a TPIM. have been outlined today. I am disappointed that the Home Secretary is advocating more of what Justice Those are all my remarks on part 2 of the Bill. calls Caroline Lucas: I will say only a few words, but I want “an ineffective and draconian diversion from prosecution of to explain why I will not support amendment 4. criminal behaviour.” My opposition to TPIMs and their predecessors, control orders, is on the record. The latest proposals do Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): nothing to address my long-held concerns. The measures These are terrible amendments. They are so sadly and before us will take us back in time to when the Secretary typically new Labour. The control order regime was the of State could require an individual to live in a residence centrepiece of what is commonly described as the new and locality in the UK that he or she considered appropriate. Labour anti-civil libertarian state. It had all the usual That was a feature of the previous Administration that new Labour features: suspicion, restrictions without was abandoned by the current Home Secretary for good trial and sweeping powers for the Secretary of State to reasons. She has now taken a step backwards. Given make up her mind about convictions. New Labour was that these measures will make it possible for individuals always on the wrong side of the crucial balance between to be removed from their families and communities and making our nation safe through security-related legislation placed, effectively, in isolation, I do not share the pleasure and upholding civil liberties. The control order regime that is apparent on the Opposition Front Bench, nor the was part of the central agenda that new Labour constructed, view of the Opposition that it is acceptable to allow which included the suggestion that suspects should people to be relocated without any limit on the distance. be locked up for 90 days without trial, ID cards and 795 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 796

[Pete Wishart] It seems to me that the Labour leopard has not changed its new Labour, anti-civil libertarian spots. national databases. Under new Labour, we became probably Labour still wants further restrictions. It still wants the the most restrictive, anti-civil libertarian state anywhere Government to go further, despite the critical balancing in the European Union. act that we always have to consider between the necessary As Members have said, there have been no prosecutions steps to keep our nation safe and the civil liberties that of people on control orders or TPIMs. That suggests we cherish and value in a democracy. New Labour got that they are either really good or really rubbish. I the balance drastically, appallingly wrong. Unfortunately, supported the Conservatives when they moved against the Conservatives are moving on to that territory once control orders. They did the right thing in abolishing again. I hope that the amendments are resisted. I understand control orders. We did not like TPIMs because they had that they are just probing amendments, and that is fine, features that were sadly reminiscent of new Labour’s but I hope that the Minister will not be probed into control order regime, but the Conservatives seemed to accepting what is being suggested by the Labour party. be rowing back from the anti-civil libertarian state that had been constructed by new Labour and we supported Ian Swales: I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s speech. them on that basis. Does he remember that the previous Government introduced a raft of new offences under terrorism legislation, Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): and therefore the gap that TPIMs or control orders are Does the hon. Gentleman have an alternative proposal there to fill should be, and indeed has proved to be, to put to the Committee? negligible? Are they needed at all?

Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman hits the nail on Pete Wishart: I think I took part in practically all the the head. These measures are counter-productive in debates in this House on these issues—indeed, the hon. trying to make our country safe. All they do is tip Gentleman and I would have sat on the same Benches people off that there is a particular issue with an individual. when arguing against what new Labour was trying to If there is a terrorist community, the first thing that they create with these measures. He is right: are such measures will take note of is the fact that somebody has been the necessary? One individual in the country is subject to a subject of a TPIM or a control order. It alerts them to TPIM, yet we are discussing the issue in Parliament and the fact that something is going on. I am all for making ensuring that what will probably be expensive resources our country safe, but have there been any prosecutions? are allocated to ensure that this new restrictive measure No. goes through. Is it worthwhile? The saddest and most bizarre feature of control I do not like TPIMs—the Minister knows that—and orders and TPIMs is that they are all about suspicion. I disliked control orders even more. Are they necessary? There is never enough evidence to test these matters in I suspect not. Do they do anything to make our nation court, to take them to trial, to have a judge and jury safe? No, they do not. Should we be doing other things decide whether something is going on. It is all about to make our country safe? Yes, we should, but unfortunately suspicion. That is the critical feature of TPIMs, as it no amendment has been tabled that will deal with those was of the control order regime. How can anybody try issues. I hope that the Minister is not in the mood to to secure their innocence when they are subject to such accept Labour’s suggestions— measures? They have no opportunity to do so at all. They just have to accept the situation. James Brokenshire indicated dissent. Unfortunately, the relocation measures will bring TPIMs right back to where we were with control orders. Pete Wishart: I see by his response that he is not. I That was the defining difference between TPIMs and hope the amendments are rejected and that in future we control orders. It is therefore particularly depressing do something that will make our country safe without that relocation is a feature of the new TPIM regime in having to resort to measures such as TPIMs. the Bill. I hope that the Minister will resist Labour’s call to extend the powers further by making relocation even Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I wish to take more restrictive and having another list of qualifications slight issue with the hon. Members for Perth and North in the TPIM regime. I know that he will resist that and Perthshire (Pete Wishart) and for Brighton, Pavilion ensure that Labour, in its new Labour guise, will not (Caroline Lucas). The hon. Gentleman’s speech seemed have its way. to play to a particular event that will take place over the next few months in Scotland and the rest of the United Diana Johnson: I am listening carefully to the hon. Kingdom, and it was more about distancing the Scottish Gentleman. He should have listened to what I said, National party from the position taken by Labour. That which was that these are probing amendments to allow is fair enough; he is entitled to do that but he seemed to us fully to understand the Government’s thinking. They be putting rather more heat than light into the debate. are intended not to extend the powers in the Bill, but to To be slightly more serious—as I am sure he intended to seek clarification. I hope that he will take that on board. be—the problem with the approach taken by him and the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion is that they Pete Wishart: I am a bit more satisfied, but on the describe a black and white world where either we have face of it, the amendments do call for further restrictions. the evidence, in which case we go through the court If they are just probing amendments, that is fair enough system, prosecute someone and if that is successful they and we will hear the Minister’s response. Regardless of receive an appropriate sentence, or else there is not whether the amendments are probing or active, I hope enough evidence to bring forward a court case so someone that he is not convinced to back anything that Labour is is not controlled at all. The difficulty is that the world is suggesting, because that would make matters worse. not black and white in that way. 797 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 798

Suppose one of our intelligence agencies has information We have had this debate on previous occasions, and I from a liaison partner—the United States, for example— respect the view of the hon. Members for Brighton, about somebody’s connections, or plans that they may Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and for Perth and North be involved in with a third party elsewhere in the world Perthshire (Pete Wishart), whose approach has been to commit an act of terrorism in this country. There is a entirely consistent. In some cases, however, there will be problem with taking such a case through the courts an inability either to prosecute or deport an individual, because the information it is based on is governed by yet a significant risk will be attached to them—the the control principle—namely that that information is point made by the right hon. Member for Knowsley. the property of the other agency, which in this case is in The Government have a responsibility to deal with that the United States. To allow that information to appear risk. in a court case as evidence would undermine the relationship My strong preference would be for prosecutions— between the UK and that liaison partner. absolutely, there are no two ways about it—but that is not always possible for a range of reasons. That is the Caroline Lucas rose— challenge the Government face in terms of seeing the threat and the risk, and being able to assure national Mr Howarth: There is an argument against that, security, as the public and the House would expect. which I suspect the hon. Lady is about to make, but an Therefore, reluctantly, a measure is required, and we inescapable choice has to be made. judge that TPIMs are the appropriate way to meet that risk and challenge. I would prefer that that were not the Caroline Lucas: No one is suggesting that the issue is case—in that I agree with the hon. Members for Brighton, black and white. There are shades of grey and balances Pavilion and for Perth and North Perthshire—but from of judgment, but the hon. Member for Perth and North the intelligence picture that I have seen and the advice I Perthshire (Pete Wishart) and I are saying that with have been given, sadly and regrettably I believe that TPIMs and control orders, that balance of judgment is TPIMs are necessary to be able to guard national wrong. If we look at things such as intercept evidence, security in that way. we can see that there will be other ways of bringing Since April 2010 more than 750 people have been evidence to bear to help us reach a solution, rather than arrested for terrorism-related offences. More than 210 the draconian and counterproductive measures suggested have been charged and more than 140 successfully by those on both Front Benches. prosecuted. I say to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) that the introduction of TPIMs was part of a careful and considered counter- 1.45 pm terrorism review. She will recall the debates. Consideration Mr Howarth: I am interested in the hon. Lady’s was not rushed, but made on the basis of careful intervention. Later in the proceedings we will discuss analysis of all counter-terrorism legislation to examine intercept evidence, although I suspect that she will take the risk and the threat, and what was appropriate and an entirely different view on that from me, my hon. proportionate. That led to a number of changes under Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the point that the (Diana Johnson) and the Minister. I hope to comment hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire was on the limitations of intercept evidence because it is not underlining. An assessment was made of which powers always feasible to rely wholly on evidence that in some were no longer necessary because they no longer added cases may not exist. Some people may operate in a to the protection of the public. That is why we made a world where they are not connected online, and do not number of changes and I was proud to be the Minister make telephone calls or give any indication of their leading that Bill through the House. It was part of the intentions. The obvious example is Roshonara Choudhry process of constantly evaluating and assessing the measures who was convicted and is now serving a prison sentence in place in order to consider what is proportionate, for trying to kill a Member of this House. It would have appropriate and necessary to guard our national security. been impossible to find out through intercept evidence In our judgment it is appropriate to make further what she was intending to do, so there is not always the changes, which is why we seek to bring these measures possibility of relying on that entirely. before the Committee today. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull TPIMs have always been part of a package of legislative North asked the Minister a series of questions and I measures and investment provided to the police and hope he will respond positively. For some people the security services to undertake further investigations. court system is not appropriate although they are known That investment will have led to other prosecutions. to be a threat for various reasons, and there must be People who not have gone on to a TPIM have been some way of dealing with that. brought before the courts as a consequence of that investment in capabilities. That is a positive result and James Brokenshire: The contribution by the right something I think right hon. and hon. Members wish hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), a member to see. of the Intelligence and Security Committee, encapsulates The Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures some of the challenges and difficulties surrounding the Act 2011 provides a powerful range of measures to principles of this debate. It is notable that contributions manage the threat from terrorists who cannot be prosecuted over the past hour have been about some of the principal or deported. TPIM notices are imposed only in cases issues concerning the types of measures that should be that require stringent measures, but where they are available to deal with the threat of terrorism, as well used, they provide a valuable capability. The Government as—obviously and rightly—more detailed examination are committed to ensuring that the appropriate tools of the Bill. are available to our security services and the police for 799 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 800

[James Brokenshire] TPIM notice, so that the Secretary of State must be satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that an individual the protection of national security. That is why clause 12 is, or has been involved, in terrorism-related activity, as introduces a new power for the Secretary of State to well as narrowing the definition of what that activity compel a TPIM subject to reside anywhere in the UK, can entail. subject to the restrictions we have talked about in the debate thus far. It is important to recognise the benefits Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): I intervene on that accrue and that there are safeguards in place. The my hon. Friend as someone who supported the original Secretary of State has to make an assessment to determine move from control orders to TPIMs and thought the whether a TPIM should be granted, why we judge it is Government had got the balance about right in the human rights compliant and how that view has been original proposals. I am just wondering what the particular upheld by the courts. reason is for reintroducing the location requirements. What has been revealed to be missing by getting rid of Caroline Lucas: Perhaps I am pre-empting the Minister, them? They were thought to be a great restriction on but I wanted to press him on clause 13. He talks about freedom. The shadow Minister appears to believe that safeguards and so on, but how can he justify the fact two people absconded because there was no location that a 10-year prison sentence could be handed down to requirement. I think it is possible to put on a burqa someone who may never have been arrested, let alone wherever one is living and that it is quite possible to get convicted, of a terrorism offence? That length of sentence into a black cab if someone has let one keep one’s is higher than that given for many violent offences that passport. If that is being used as a reason, it strikes me have been properly proved. as an excuse for letting two people go.

James Brokenshire: It is a question of the seriousness The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): of the measures. We recognise, because of the changes Order. An intervention is meant to be short. It is not we are making, that there should be higher burden meant to be a speech. If the right hon. and learned placed on the Secretary of State in determining whether Gentleman wanted to speak, he could have done so one of these measures should be provided. That is why earlier. Please, let us shorten these interventions. we have moved this up to the “balance of probabilities”. Let us not forget that under the previous control orders Mr Clarke: I apologise, Mr Hoyle. What exactly has regime it was not at that level, but two notches down at happened to give rise to the need to bring back what I “reasonable suspicion”. Under TPIMs, we brought it thought were fairly useless relocation orders? up to “reasonable belief” and, on the balance of the measures we now have, we judge that moving to the James Brokenshire: In large measure, it has been the “balance of probabilities” is the right stance to take. I changing nature of the threat picture. My right hon. will come on to clause 13 later. and learned Friend will know from his time in government that in the past two years we have seen a very altered The changes are being introduced in the light of the threat picture and, as he will no doubt recognise, a rise changing threat picture: the ongoing conflict in Syria in the threat level earlier this year. The Government and Iraq; the fact that 500 subjects of interest have need to consider, in a responsible fashion, that changed travelled to that region; the risk that they may pose on threat picture and the advice we received from the their return; and the risk of more people seeking to independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. The proposals travel out. It is against that assessment that the threat in the Bill are formed with that insight clearly in mind level has been raised to severe, the second highest threat and David Anderson’s specific recommendation on this level, and that has had an impact on our assessment of point. It has been against all those factors that we have the measures that need to be available to the police and judged that the right thing to do is to introduce the the Security Service, and it is why we have brought measures in this way, subject to the safeguards I have forward the measures in this way. spoken about in respect of the change in the burden of The measures also follow the recommendations from proof and the specific limitation on relocation being David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism limited to 200 miles from the location of the individual. legislation, in his most recent annual report on TPIMs. I will come on to speak on that in a more direct fashion, As he has said, however, there is no need to turn back recognising the point the hon. Member for Kingston the clock. Control orders were not working and were upon Hull North rightly raised in her amendment. being struck down by the courts, whereas TPIMs have been consistently upheld and therefore provide a basis Pete Wishart: I am sure the right hon. and learned in law that is robust and has withstood the scrutiny of Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), with his years of the courts. TPIMs have been endorsed by the courts, distinguished service to the House, deserves a better counter-terrorism reviewers, the police and the Security answer than that pathetic response from the Minister. Service. This change enhances the powers available to The question the Minister has to answer is: why? What manage TPIM subjects by moving them away from evidence does he have to suggest that relocation is now harmful associates and making it harder for them to necessary? Why relocation? Why now? engage in terrorism-related activity. That is why we judge, at this time against the threat picture we see, that James Brokenshire: If the hon. Gentleman is not able it is appropriate to introduce these measures. to recognise the change in the nature of the threat and It is important, however, that appropriate limits are the evolving picture taking place in recent months, I am placed on the use of the powers, and the Bill seeks to do sorry he is blind to it. The Government have a responsibility that. We are also acting on David Anderson’s other to respond to it in a fair way. We have to take into recommendation to increase the test for imposing a consideration the advice we receive from the independent 801 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 802 reviewer of terrorism legislation, and listen to the Security James Brokenshire: This is intended to be a very Service and the police, who we have consulted, to ensure focused power on the basis—rightly, as we have discussed— we have the right package of measures, challenging that our strong preference is to see prosecution, and ourselves and others, to do all we can in a proportionate that it is only in the cases where prosecution, or indeed and necessary way to ensure that those agencies have deportation, is not available to us that we would need to the appropriate powers to guard against the changed rely on the use of the TPIM measures. As no doubt the risk picture, as well as ensuring an appropriate balance hon. Gentleman will be aware, there have been 10 between privacy and security. I agree with the hon. TPIM notices imposed since their introduction. Perhaps Gentleman and my right hon. and learned Friend on that gives him some reassurance that this is not reached the issue of absconds. A point that David Anderson for as the first option. Indeed, we always look for made directly was that the only way in which one could prosecution, and there is a requirement in the TPIM be absolutely certain that someone was unable to abscond legislation to show that those steps have been explored was by putting them in a prison cell, which is why my and that there is no reasonable prospect of being able to preference always is to seek a prosecution, when the secure that. evidence is there. The challenge is that it is not always The impact on communities was carefully considered available. at the time of the counter-terrorism review and, indeed, led to the creation of the TPIMs Act and the measures that we now have on the statute book. In placing this 2pm type of restriction—now that we are saying we believe On amendment 4 and the 200-mile limit, the Bill that relocation is appropriate in the light of the changed seeks to ensure that these powers are used in a balanced picture—it should not be unbounded; hence this restriction and appropriate way, taking into consideration the need is in place so that an individual may only be a few for proportionality. We have introduced a restriction, hours’ away from their family rather than relocated to placing a 200-mile limit on the distance an individual the other side of the country. may be moved from his own residence when a TPIM Should exceptional circumstances arise that require notice is imposed. This means that a TPIM subject will more stringent measures, we retain the ability to enact be only a few hours’ travel from their family members, the Enhanced Terrorism Prevention and Investigation but we can still gain the benefits of relocating that Measures Bill, which has passed pre-legislative scrutiny. individual and disrupting their activity. This Bill includes a range of more stringent powers, Amendment 4, as has been highlighted, would remove including curfews of up to 16 hours. As we said at the the 200-mile limit in clause 12, under the overnight time of the counter-terrorism review, we reserve the residence measure. The limit provides flexibility as to right to be able to do that in those exceptional circumstances. where a subject can be moved, based on the national Clause 13 amends the TPIMs Act and allows the security case, but gives a commitment that there will be Secretary of State to impose restrictions on an individual an appropriate restriction on how this power will be from leaving either the UK or a specified area within used. The sense of proportionality and necessity has the UK within which they reside, and increases the guided us here. The hon. Member for Perth and North maximum sentence for breaching this measure to 10 years, Perthshire, while disagreeing with the principle, identified as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has said. that having some boundaries was appropriate. I am sure This underlines the Government’s commitment to ensuring that moving from London to the beautiful city of Perth, that TPIM subjects are appropriately managed, but which I have visited on many occasions, would be a that if they breach their TPIM notice, appropriate wonderful thing but we must look at what restrictions sentences will be given to recognise the seriousness of are proportionate and necessary. This was an issue that the issues at hand. I hope that the House is reassured David Anderson looked at. Following his view that that these measures strike the right balance between there should be restrictions on the ambit of this power, privacy and security and, on this basis, I invite the hon. the distance was decided in consultation with the police Lady to withdraw the amendment. and Security Service, taking into account their operational Amendment 7 would insert a new clause 6B after the needs. Our judgment is that that is the right balance to clause 14, which is entitled “TPIMs: weapons and explosives strike. measure”. Both the weapons and explosives measure The decision on where an individual should live will and the proposed new clause 6B are designed to put be based on a number of different considerations, and beyond doubt what a TPIM subject is permitted to have will be decided on a case-by-case basis. We do not access to on a TPIM notice. This amendment seeks to believe that the power to relocate an individual needs to add an additional requirement in that respect. be unlimited in order to achieve the aim of disrupting The hon. Lady asked a series of questions that were the individual’s involvement in terrorism-related activity. linked to this issue in relation to the vetting and barring That is why we have limited the clause in that way. service and what might apply. Perhaps I can reassure her that someone who wants to work in a school or John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): other educational establishment will be eligible to obtain I came somewhat late to the debate—for which I an enhanced criminal records certificate from the Disclosure apologise—so I may have missed this. There is an issue and Barring Service, as the hon. Lady will know. The about the counter-productive nature of control orders, certificate will include convictions and cautions held on as was, in terms of radicalising sections of the community, the police national computer, plus any other information just as internment did with regard to the Irish community that is available to the police and which a chief police in Northern Ireland. Is there any estimate, or provisional officer both reasonably believes to be relevant and estimate, of the scale of the use of TPIMs as envisaged considers ought to be disclosed. This may include the in the Bill? fact that a person was or is subject to a TPIM notice. In 803 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 804

[James Brokenshire] items are properly and firmly addressed. As I have indicated, the link to the police national computer is addition the legislation governing barring allows specific already there. This further underlines and underpins criteria to be prescribed that would require someone to each of the specific issues already on the statute book. be automatically barred. There would be scope to use On the boundary that could be imposed, there is the provision in relation to a TPIM if that were considered further specific provision on the requirement for the appropriate. This is something that we already cover in Secretary of State to provide certain guidance and the TPIM legislation, in that the Act provides the ability indications on the factors that will be used in the to prevent TPIM subjects from taking part in a regulated assessment. These can include the original location of activity relating to vulnerable adults and children under the TPIM subject; access to services; ability to prevent the association measure in schedule 1(8) or the work or or restrict involvement in terrorism-related activity; studies measure in schedule 1(9). proximity to airports or ports; and proximity to other The association measure in schedule 1 allows the TPIM subjects or prohibited associates. Those are the Secretary of State to impose a requirement that a TPIM sort of factors that can be taken into account. subject must not associate or communicate with specified The definition of terrorism-related activity, to which persons, or specified descriptions of persons, without the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North permission. In addition, the work or studies measure referred, was followed through in David Anderson’s allows the Secretary of State to impose a restriction on recommendations. His concern about the existing definition a TPIM subject carrying out specified types of work, was that it has people almost three steps removed from which includes unpaid work, or studies without the the activity. We have consulted the police and security permission of the Secretary of State. We can and do use services in respect of this amendment, and they have these measures to prevent TPIM subjects from associating been reflecting on David Anderson’s consideration. We with particular people or working or studying in areas continue to judge that the measures remain appropriate. that are assessed to be inappropriate. The measure I will gladly answer if I have omitted any of the hon. proposed in this amendment duplicates that measure, Lady’s questions, but I think what I have said covers the which is why we judge that it is neither appropriate nor bulk of what she asked. needed. Diana Johnson: I do not recall the Minister responding Diana Johnson: Just to be clear: if somebody is subject to my point about families and whether a relocation of to a TPIM order, work that is voluntary and is not in a an individual could also include young children and a regulated activity could, under the current legislation, partner. It would be helpful to understand that situation. be something that the person is not allowed to take part James Brokenshire: Yes, families could live in the in by decision of the Home Secretary. accommodation to which the TPIM subject has been relocated. In that relocation situation, it would be for James Brokenshire: That is the very point; we have the Home Office to provide the accommodation, as has that ability from the work and studies measure to be happened under previous arrangements. We would seek able to control that, and the Secretary of State effectively to adhere to the same circumstances. has to give permission for work to be conducted. There With those assurances, I hope that the hon. Lady will is an additional measure, plus the information that will be minded to withdraw the amendment. be provided. The police update the police national computer when a TPIM subject has a notice imposed to Diana Johnson: I am grateful to the Minister for ensure that this information can be taken into account responding to the many lengthy questions I put to him. in relation to any decision and checks on the subject, so We have had a useful opportunity to understand the it is flagged in that way. I hope that that gives the hon. thinking behind 12 to 16. As I indicated at the outset, Lady assurance on that specific point. the amendments I tabled were probing ones, intended to As I said, amendment 7 would amend the appointments allow us to have this debate and to understand more measure in clause 15, which allows the Secretary of fully the thinking behind the Government’s approach. State to require an individual to attend meetings as It is clear, however, that no one absconded under a specified by the Secretary of State. The appointments control order with a relocation power, and it is worth measure is already a broad power that allows the Secretary reiterating that, but on the basis of what the Minister of State to require a TPIM subject to meet relevant has said, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. organisations or people who can contribute to their Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. ongoing management. The measure already includes Clauses 12 to 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill. the ability to require TPIM subjects to attend a deradicalisation programme, with persons involved in Clause 17 delivering programmes established under part 5, chapter 2 of the Bill. In our judgment, it is therefore unnecessary RETENTION OF RELEVANT DATA explicitly to specify this as part of the appointments measure. In essence, the existing language is broad Diana Johnson: I beg to move amendment 5, page 11, enough and sufficient to allow us to require the link line 3, at end insert— with deradicalisation programmes. (iii) is beyond that which is necessary to allow the The hon. Lady flagged up some other issues relating identification of the user from the public Internet to offensive weapons and explosives. On that, we are Protocol address.” seeking to put the issues beyond doubt. There is, of This amendment would make it explicit that the extra data course, existing legislation that governs some of these retention provided for in Clause 17 does not extend beyond that issues, and it is our judgment that it ensures that these which is necessary for the purpose of identifying a user from the 805 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 806

IP address. This amendment is not intended to impact on the rest of Diana Johnson: I shall speak to new clause 2 standing the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act, only the extra in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. retention requirements created by Clause 17. Friends. It would be helpful to start by providing some background to clause 17, although I do not wish to Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss pre-empt the Minister’s comments. I must say at the the following: outset that clause 17 is not the easiest clause to follow, Clause 17 stand part. and reference was made to that on Second Reading. New clause 1—“Access to retained data; judicial oversight— 2.15 pm (1) The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 is Clause 17 amends the definition of “relevant amended as follows. communications data”as found within the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014. Some of clause 17 (2) After section 22 insert— appears to tidy up drafting issues, such as the definition “22A Access to retained communications data: judicial of communication, from the DRIP Act. However, oversight the clause also expands the definition of relevant (1) This section applies where a person designated for the communications data to include an extra category of purposes of this Chapter believes that it is necessary on grounds data described as “relevant internet data” in section 2 of falling within section 22 to obtain relevant communications data DRIP in order to allow the Home Secretary to use retained under section 1 of the Data Retention and Investigatory powers under section 1 of DRIP to bring in regulations Powers Act 2014 relating to professional activities covered by a duty of confidentiality. to ensure that this relevant internet data is retained by communications service providers. (2) Before granting an authorisation or issuing a notice under section 22 the designated person must have obtained the Essentially, the Government are using this fast-tracked permission of the court. primary legislation in early December to amend emergency primary legislation from July to enable the Home Secretary (3) In determining whether to grant permission under to bring in secondary legislation, but it is important to subsection (2) the court shall in particular balance the reasons why the designated person believes it is necessary to obtain the remember that while DRIP maintained the status quo data against the public interest in upholding the duty of in respect of data retention, clause 17 extends the confidentiality. current provision. That is why I think it important to pay close attention to the clause. (4) The Secretary of State may by regulations specify— The use of the term “relevant internet data” to define (a) the court or courts that shall determine applications for permission under this section; the extra data being provided for in clause 17 is, I think, problematic. The use of such a broad term suggests a (b) the process for the court or courts to determine wide new category of data retention, while the Bill’s whether to grant permission; explanatory notes suggest, it seems to me, a much (c) the period for which permission shall apply before narrower category of data—namely, the data necessary being renewed by the court; and to allow relevant authorities to link the unique attributes (d) the process for a person or persons to appeal against a of public internet protocol, or IP addresses, to the decision to grant permission. person or device using it. (5) Regulations under this section may not be made until they Amendment 5 is designed to ensure that the text of have been laid in draft before and approved by both Houses of clause 17 matches the claims made in the explanatory Parliament. notes. I understand that the change in the rules on data (6) In this section “professional activities covered by a duty of retention is a response to the increasing use of floating confidentiality” shall include, but not be limited to, the IP addresses by communications service providers, whereby professional activities of journalists, legal advisers, medical one IP address is allocated to numerous devices. This is professions and Members of Parliament.” particularly common for mobile devices, which may New clause 2—“Review of timing for disclosure of connect to the internet only a second at a time, so Relevant Internet Data— numerous IP addresses may be allocated. The extra data ‘(1) The Secretary of State must instigate a review of the time retention, as provided for in clause 17, is to ensure that taken for communications service providers to comply with a the data required to allow the relevant authorities to see request for subscriber information made under Part 1, Chapter 2 who is the recipient of a communication such as an of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. e-mail or a bit torrent, is retained by the CSP. (2) In this section “subscriber information” means relevant While there is considerable and fully understandable internet data as defined in section 17 of this Act in so far as it public concern about the extent of data storage, the relates to information required to link a public internet protocol Opposition broadly accept the need for this extra category address to an individual user.” of data. It has always been the case that phone companies This New Clause would require the Home Secretary to instigate a have kept records of phone calls made. People understand review regarding the time taken by communications service and generally accept that their phone company keeps a providers to disclose information which links an individual to an IP record of these calls and that they may be used by the address. police. We feel that the same principle should apply to Amendment 11, in clause 42, page 25, line 5, at end electronic communication, and that this amendment is insert— broadly in line with this principle. ‘(3A) The Secretary of State shall not make regulations Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Will the under subsection (3)(a) until a report by the Interception of Communications Commissioner on the use of powers under shadow Minister explain a bit more of her party’s the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 to access the thoughts on making further changes in communications records of journalists has been laid before both Houses of data and retention, because as she knows we need to do Parliament.” much more in this area and this is only the start? 807 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 808

Diana Johnson: If the hon. Gentleman will be little To repeat, although in principle we support clause 17, patient, I shall move on to that subject in a few moments. we have some concerns about its drafting, which is why As I was saying, the Opposition accept that this extra we have tabled amendment 5. Because of the broad category of data will be a vital tool for law enforcement— label “relevant internet data”, we want to put it beyond not just in protecting national security, but in combating doubt that the category of data to be retained under a whole range of online crimes, including online child clause 17 does not extend beyond what is strictly necessary abuse, on which I shall speak in greater detail when we to link an IP address to a user. come on to new clause 2. The provisions for this extra In the Bill, the definition of “relevant internet data” category of data were first proposed in the Government’s is data which ill-fated draft Communications Data Bill—I think that “relates to an internet access service or an internet communications might help the hon. Gentleman in respect of his service” intervention. Although initially reluctant to provide and any public evidence for why these extra data were needed, “may be used to identify, or assist in identifying, which internet the Government did then provide the evidence that protocol address…belongs to the sender or recipient of a convinced the Joint Committee on the draft Bill of the communication”. necessity of this extra retention. The draft Communications While this appears to include a whole host of other Data Bill has been subject to much coalition grandstanding traffic data, including web logs, clause 17 also states over the past few years, with the Home Secretary proposing that “relevant internet data” is not “communications a Bill of unprecedented, and in our view unnecessary, data” as defined by the schedule to the Data Retention scope, while the Deputy Prime Minister refuses to accept Regulations 2014 or information as defined in the need for any legislation at all. Of course there was clause 17(3)(c), which is supposed to exclude web logs room for compromise and the Opposition have always from this provision. We have concerns about the accuracy supported this compromise. Some additional data retention with which subsection (3)(c) captures the nature of web is required, but not on the scale the Home Secretary logs, which is why we have tabled amendment 5. I hope proposed. the regulations this clause will enable will be clearer than this primary clause in the legislation. It is disappointing Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): How that, unlike with the DRIP Bill, the draft regulations can the hon. Lady say that my right hon. Friend the have not yet been published alongside the Bill. This has Deputy Prime Minister did not see the need for any caused problems for Parliament’s ability to provide legislation at all when we are sitting here in this Committee proper scrutiny of this clause. this afternoon considering the legislation which we As well as accepting our amendment 5, which I hope think properly balances the privacy issues with the need the Minister will be able to do, I urge him to go back for public safety? and look again at the drafting of clause 17 before Report. In order to increase public confidence in the use Diana Johnson: The right hon. Gentleman has made of retained communications data we need to be clear his point, and we will obviously disagree on what I have about what is retained and I believe clause 17 and the just said. accompanying explanatory notes could be better in this Our view, agreed with by most of the Joint Committee regard. on the draft Bill, is that the data required to link an IP address to a device is one such category of data that is Julian Smith: Will the hon. Lady give way? required and therefore we welcome what in principle clause 17 seeks to achieve. I say “in principle” because Diana Johnson: I will one more time. we do have some concerns about the drafting of clause 17, which is why we have tabled amendment 5. Julian Smith: The hon. Lady talks about web logs. Will she clarify the Opposition’s long-term position on Julian Smith: Will the hon. Lady give way? that issue, and what she sees will happen in the future, when on many sides of the security spectrum there seems to be a consensus that there is a need to bring Diana Johnson: I will give way, but, as I have said, I these areas in eventually? do want to get on to the substantive issues. Diana Johnson: I will just reiterate that we are dealing Julian Smith: I am grateful to the shadow Minister with clause 17, and we are very mindful that we want to for giving way. Will she just clarify briefly the further ensure that web logs are not included under this clause. categories that she sees becoming more important, and My focus is on getting clarity on that from the Minister. where the Government and coalition can expect Labour’s What might happen in the long term is perhaps a debate support as they seek to put more of these areas on to for another time. I am concerned that we get the drafting the statute book? of this clause as accurate as we can. I was talking about making sure the public are confident Diana Johnson: What I will come on to say about about what we are trying to do through clause 17, and some of the concerns we have might help the hon. what is included and what is not included. The data at Gentleman, but his question obviously leads into a the heart of clause 17 appear to be what is commonly debate that goes wider than this particular grouping, referred to as “IP resolution data”, but this term does which is specifically on clause 17, and in the Committee not appear in the text of the explanatory notes, and stage of the Bill. I will therefore continue with my I hope the Minister will be able to explain whether points on this grouping, because I am sure I would be in they do refer to the same thing, as there is some trouble if I did not do that. confusion here. 809 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 810

As I explained, clause 17 is meant to plug a gap Sixthly, will the Minister confirm that the extra within the current framework for data retention, but reporting requirements imposed on the interception of when we compare the language of the Bill with the text communications commissioner by the DRIP Act will of the current regulations, the gap is not immediately extend to the data retained and subsequently requested obvious. Clause 17 refers to data which under clause 17? Will the Minister be providing additional “relates to an internet access service or an internet communications resources to the commissioner to meet those additional service” requirements? and “may be used to identify, or assist in identifying, which internet 2.30 pm protocol address…belongs to the sender or recipient of a Seventhly, will the Minister tell the House how roaming communication”. services are dealt with, both international SIM cards However, part 3, paragraph 11 of the schedule to the temporarily hosted on UK networks and UK-based existing regulations refers to the subscriber information SIMs use data roaming abroad? “to whom an Internet Protocol (IP) address, user ID or telephone Eighthly, will the Minister tell the House what he number was allocated at the time of the communication.” would expect the costs to be on a relevant authority I ask the Minister to look at this and see whether he making a request for data provided for under clause 17? cannot amend the language to make clear on the face of Ninthly, can the Minister tell the House what discussions the Bill the exact data category that will be provided for have been undertaken with industry? In particular, can in the regulations. he respond to the comment from the secretary-general of the Internet Services Providers Association that he I am also concerned about the degree to which clause was “disappointed”that the Home Office had not consulted 17 relies on definitions provided from the Regulation of with industry before announcing these proposals? How Investigatory Powers Act 2000. I am sure the Minister is did the Minister reach the £98 million estimate of aware of the findings of the Joint Committee on the compensation required by the industry if he has not Draft Communications Data Bill that the definitions consulted with it? used in RIPA were out of date and needed to be replaced. Given this, it is surprising to see both the Finally, will the Minister assure the House that the definition of “communication” and section (3)(c) of Government have obtained independent legal advice to the clause rely so heavily on RIPA definitions. ensure that this measure is compatible with the decision of the European Court of Justice to quash the data I would also like the Minister look again at the retention directive? In that judgment, the ECJ suggested definition of “identifier.” According to clause 17 that any form of blanket retention was disproportionate, “‘identifier’ means an identifier used to facilitate the transmission and also called for additional safeguards on when the of a communication”. data can be disclosed. Is the Minister still confident that This is at least partly circular, and again adds to the the measures contained within DRIP are sufficient to confusion around this clause. Finally, in subsection (2)(b) meet those demands? will the Minister confirm that he does indeed mean “paragraph (a)” rather than subsection (a)? Sir Alan Beith: The hon. Lady has produced a formidable list of questions, but I only have one for her, on In addition to the five questions above regarding the amendment 5. It seems to me that the process we are drafting, I have 10 questions about the implementation describing does not enable people to discover who the that I hope the Minister will be able to address in his user of an instrument was; it locates or identifies only comments. First, will he tell the House whether he the instrument from which the communication was expects to introduce new retention regulations under made. Therefore, amendment 5 would be inoperative, DRIPA section 1, or will the Government be seeking to because it could never be demonstrated that it was amend the Data Retention Regulations 2014? Secondly, being used to establish who the user was as it cannot be and on a similar note, will he update the House on when guaranteed to do that. he expects to publish these draft regulations and when he hopes they will be in force? Thirdly, when the data covered under clause 17 is traffic data, while the relevant Diana Johnson: I am grateful for the right hon. authority wants to reveal the subscriber information Gentleman’s observations on amendment 5. As with the behind this, will this be covered under a single request previous grouping, the amendment was tabled to give under RIPA, or could clause 17 data simply lead us the opportunity to look at the specifics of clause 17 to a disclosure which requires a further RIPA request to and to understand fully the thinking behind the Minister’s be made? Fourthly—this is particularly relevant to approach. I take on board what the right hon. Gentleman amendment 5—will he assure the House that the retention has said, which may be correct, but the amendment by the Crown Prosecution Service of this relevant internet allows us to debate what would be disclosed and what data can be done in such a way that does not require information would be available. deep package inspections of the type that would be I have just bombarded the Minister with a whole considered intrusive surveillance? Fifthly—and again range of questions and I know that, as usual, he will be relating to amendment 5—will the Minister explain very thorough and go through each in turn. However, I in practice how the regulations will separate out want to turn briefly to new clause 2, which seeks to communications going to a device, which could be a move on from the retention of data to a review of web log, such as access to an app, which would be whether the form of storing the data is allowing the key considered a website, and communications going to a authorities to access it in a timely manner. I will say, so device which enables a communication, such as an app everyone understands where I am coming from, that which facilitates web e-mail storage? this proposal aims to probe the Minister’s argument, 811 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 812

[Diana Johnson] important to note that the clause would apply not just to journalists but to doctors, lawyers and others, including and to look at the clause to see what more can be done Members of Parliament, when a professional duty of and whether we need to be aware of any issues for confidentiality could be construed. companies. My concern arises from the police’s apparent problems Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): in pursuing the majority of suspected paedophiles identified The hon. Lady referred to journalists, but how broadly through Operation Notarise. My understanding is that would she or her colleagues define “journalists”? We are Operation Notarise identified between 20,000 and 30,000 living in a world of bloggers and of a whole range of individuals whom the communications data suggested individuals who would consider themselves to be part were taking part in online abuse. From that, only 700 of the media overall, but presumably she would not people have been named, investigated and arrested, so necessarily want each and every one of those self-professed well in excess of 20,000 IP addresses have been identified, journalists and bloggers to be caught by these potentially but that information has not been translated into named restricting and constricting provisions, essentially watering users. At this point, I am not even talking about arrests, down elements of RIPA? but about identifying the users to enable effective Diana Johnson: I have the disadvantage of speaking safeguarding interventions. first on this group of amendments, and obviously, this Once a user is identified, even if it is just an address, is not my amendment, so I am very much looking the police can make several key checks: first, against the forward to hearing what the proposers feel would happen. police national computer to see if there is a known sex However, the hon. Gentleman raises an important point, offender living at the address; secondly, against the because we are not only talking about a limited group Disclosure and Barring Service database to identify of people who describe themselves as journalists and anyone who might be working with or have access to who, in the past, we would have been able to identify children; and thirdly, against the Department for Work clearly. Perhaps the proposers of the amendment would and Pensions database to see if a child is registered at be able to address that when they speak to it. the property for the purpose of claiming child benefit. I want to make a further point about the broad At the moment, the police do not know how many of definition of professional duty that concerns me, especially the people they have identified are known sex offenders, when combined with the right of appeal. As I have said, working with children or living with children. Most a large number of professionals have some form of duty people would see that as unacceptable and would believe of confidentiality, and it many cases it is not clear, there should be a response. This could start with a particularly when discussing communications data, how review of the degree to which the difficulty of linking IP that potential duty of confidentiality would be separated addresses to users is behind the police’s problems with from other investigations about which we would not moving this forward. allow the individual to have prior knowledge. There is a Finally, I turn to the amendments and new clauses clear case for preventing a journalist from being targeted tabled by my hon. Friends the Members for Hayes and for their sources unless there is an overwhelming need Harlington (John McDonnell) and for Islington North to do so. However, the case is less clear in respect of (Jeremy Corbyn), and by the hon. Member for Brighton, other professions, particularly as we may be investigating Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), on the degree to which RIPA issues involving criminal misconduct. Let me give an is being used to access the records of certain professionals, example for the Committee to consider: the case of including journalists. They address a real concern that Myles Bradbury, the doctor recently convicted of a Members and the general public have about the use of string of horrendous sexual assaults of boys in his care. RIPA to access the records particularly of journalists As a doctor, he would potentially have been covered by and those in the media. the new clause, especially in respect of some of his As the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend communications, and the Committee would be concerned the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford about that. If he had been alerted to the fact that the (Yvette Cooper), has said, this issue has to be addressed. police were investigating him, he would have had some Indeed, a key concession secured by the Opposition time to delete much of the evidence which was then during the passage of the DRIP Bill was that a review used to lead to his prosecution. I just give that as an of RIPA would be conducted by David Anderson QC, example of the care we have to take in considering these the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, and matters. that it would include the use of RIPA to look at the I hope the Minister will respond in detail—I am sure records of journalists. It is because we have confidence he will—to the issues I have raised on this group, in that review that we do not feel amendment 11 is particularly the need for the drafting of clause 17 to be necessary. made much clearer so that the general public can be However, that is also why the Opposition have a great reassured about exactly what it is attempting to do. deal of sympathy with the aims of new clause 1, which would require a court order before relevant authorities Sir Alan Beith: The hon. Member for Kingston upon could access communications data that could be covered Hull North (Diana Johnson) is right to seek clarification by a professional duty of confidentiality. The clause to satisfy herself and her colleagues that clause 17 does not state whether the role of the court would be achieves its intended purpose and no more. Its intended simply to ensure that due process is followed, or to purpose is reasonable: to keep up with the technological apply some test of proportionality or necessity. However, changes that lead evildoers to move from one technology the clause provides for the right of appeal for the to another, and become more difficult to track as they individual. That means that an individual would have do so. prior knowledge that their communications data were to be disclosed to law enforcement agencies. It is also Julian Smith: On that point— 813 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 814

Sir Alan Beith: Goodness me, I have barely started, cases, that will enable them to identify the individual, but I will give way. but I stress that it does not guarantee that, any more than knowing a telephone number guarantees that the Julian Smith: Does my right hon. Friend agree that person who used the telephone—that instrument from this provision does not keep up with the technology, that number—is the person who engaged in the criminal and that much more has to happen and will happen? activity. It is more complicated than that, but this Will he clarify his party’s position on the changes that provision is a necessary aid to investigations ranging will have to come? from the activities of paedophiles through to the serious threats we now face. Sir Alan Beith: The hon. Gentleman has a strange desire, which he has expressed during a previous speech, 2.45 pm to extend the debate beyond the bounds of clause 17 and the amendments to it. I do not think we should be Mr George Howarth: I wish to begin by providing drawn into that at the moment, except to make the some context. The Intelligence and Security Committee’s general point that all processes involving intrusion into report in February 2013 referred to the Home Office’s people’s private communications should have high assessment that there was a levels of justification before they are used at all, and “25% shortfall in the communications data that public authorities protections should be provided by various safeguards would wish to access and what they are currently able to access.” and authorisations. Finding the right balance for different That is, of course, an estimate, as it is not possible to be levels of communication is a difficult task, and I expect precise about what is unknowable, but the existence of a a great deal of work will need to be done. Most of us in shortfall is a legitimate cause for concern. The report this House, and certainly most in my party, do not goes on to suggest that want, either by design or accidental discovery, a great “left unchecked, this gap will increase.” deal of personal information about people to get in the Perhaps the Minister will be able to say whether it has hands of the state and its employees without any reasonable increased and, if so, whether by an appreciable amount. justification. On a matter that will be raised when the It would be interesting to know that, and I suspect it has hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) increased. speaks, nor do we want the processes of investigation by journalists to be impaired by a fear that sources will be It is worth spending a little more time examining compromised from the beginning. There are very good what we know about both the scale and the sources of reasons for extreme caution in this area, but I believe interceptions that take place. In his annual report for the Government have exercised that caution and sought 2013, the interception of communications commissioner, to devise a process to deal with a particular and recognisable Sir Anthony May, noted that the total number of difficulty. authorisations for interception of communications data under part 1 of RIPA stood at 514,608, down from Mark Field: The right hon. Gentleman is making a 570,135 in 2012. He pointed out that these figures do perfectly valid point. In the midst of the more hyperbolic not represent sole individuals, because phrases that get used, such as “snooper’s charter”, does “public authorities often make multiple requests for communications he recognise that legislation such as this—and further data in the course of a single investigation but also make multiple legislation, which will inevitably be required whoever is requests for communications data in relation to the same individual.” in government in the years to come—should also be The figures give some indication of the scale of this, designed to protect the individual? It is not just about rather than the number of individuals who are covered. the state getting more powers; it is about codifying the Under the same process, Sir Anthony notes that 87.7% rules and protections for the individual. It is very important of authorisations were at the request of the police and that we have that in mind when looking at any new law enforcement agencies, 11.5% were from the intelligence legislation that comes into play. agencies, and the rest were from local and other public bodies. Sir Alan Beith: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s Worldwide, the scale of online communications is observation, which points to part of the purpose of the daunting. About 3 billion people have access to the process, of which this is only a part. The clauses we are internet, and during the time I have been speaking more talking about in RIPA—or DRIPA, as it has become than 200 million e-mails will have been sent, 2 million known—are the subject of a sunset provision, because Google searches will have been made and there will significant further review is to take place and new have been 6 million Facebook views. So why is it considered legislation will be required on the outcome of that important that the police, intelligence agencies and review. So those who think that detailed discussion of other bodies have access to some of the data records of matters that often feel technically beyond us is just an these online communications? Overwhelmingly, internet occasional thing in this House will have to recognise traffic is benign; it is people using the various platforms that we are going to be coming back to this issue. That for perfectly legitimate and legal purposes. However, a does not apply to me, because I do not anticipate being small proportion—I estimate it to be no more than a a Member in the next Parliament, having announced tiny fraction of 1%—is used for illegal purposes, and that I am going to retire, but Members in the next my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull Parliament will certainly be engaging with these issues. North (Diana Johnson) referred to some other purposes I simply wished to place on the record that my that are cause for concern. view—and, I hope, that of my right hon. and hon. My hon. Friend’s new clause 2 would, if agreed, Friends—is that the Government have striven hard to require the Home Secretary to review the time taken by find a sensible way to identify the instrument or apparatus communications service providers to disclose information that has been the point of communication. In many linking an individual to an internet protocol address. 815 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 816

[Mr George Howarth] Mr Howarth: The hon. Gentleman is quite right and he, like me, is a member of the Intelligence and Security That is important for two reasons. The first is that, as Committee. We have good reason to believe that there we tragically discovered with Fusilier Lee Rigby’s murder, are any number of encryption packages that can be CSPs will, on occasion, receive information that in bought quite openly on the internet. It is a matter not some cases could crucially be the catalyst for a warrant just of the communications service providers encrypting to enable greater surveillance measures on an individual communications that take place but of individuals buying to take place. In turn that can, in some cases, prevent a packages that enable them to do that themselves, which terrorist attack. makes the situation even more difficult. IP addresses are the key to unlocking who is contacting What more can we do? It is no use pretending that whom, and that can be critical. But they are not this problem is unique to the UK; it is a very difficult straightforward. Typically, a communications service international problem. I know that the Home Secretary, provider with, say, 10 million to 15 million customers the Foreign Secretary and others are in constant dialogue would have allocated to it 100,000 IP addresses. For the with their opposite numbers in the United States, but larger commercial bodies or public bodies, a series of there needs to be a growing understanding between static IP addresses will be allocated. But for the vast ourselves and the places where CSPs are located that majority of users, IP addresses are dynamic. In practice, there cannot be this ungoverned space within which a range of numbers is allocated randomly to customers, criminal activity can take place unchecked on the basis which is why the former head of GCHQ used the that it is in another jurisdiction from where it is being analogy of finding a needle in a haystack. perpetrated. That issue can only be properly resolved by Secondly, the range of platforms is constantly changing, states, either bilaterally or multilaterally, agreeing protocols with new ones entering the market all the time. A good and ways of dealing with these issues. Obviously, it is example of that is WhatsApp, which was recently acquired much more easy to do that with friendly states—states by Facebook for $22 billion. On 1 April, that platform, with which we share common values—than it is in some which is adaptable and easy to use, handled, over a other areas where internet providers might decide to 24-hour period, 64 billion messages, 20 billion of which locate because there will not be many controls on them. were sent and 44 billion of which were received. In such Clearly, that is another matter that needs to be seriously a dynamic sphere of activity, it is vital that procedures avoided. are in place and properly monitored to ensure that, We need to have order in this ungoverned space. I am when the security and intelligence services need to talking about legal compliance and there not being this locate a needle in a haystack, the haystack is still in free space in which crime, terrorism and other activities place, and that is what this section of the Bill seeks to can illegally take place. It is also important that the ensure. It means that urgent inquiries of either a historical CSPs take a more responsible view of what they are or planned terrorist or criminal activity can be located. being used for. Like the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field), I have seen Julian Smith: The right hon. Gentleman makes a some CSPs washing their hands of such responsibilities, powerful case for us to go further. What would he do saying,” That is a matter of jurisdiction. We are not in now? He has made it clear that there are many technologies that jurisdiction so we will comply with the laws where that need much more scrutiny and oversight. What we are.” That might be good for their reputations with would he do if he were in charge? their customers, but it is a fairly cynical way of operating. I hope that, through the intervention of our own Mr Howarth: Had the hon. Gentleman waited a while Government and Governments elsewhere, CSPs can be longer, I was about to say what more could be done. It is brought to the view that they should behave responsibly right that we have a statutory provision, and, subject to and in such a way that upholds the law right across the the concerns that my hon. Friend the Member for world—except in cases where the rule of law does not Kingston upon Hull North highlighted being satisfied, operate. the provisions contained in the Bill are appropriate. However, there is a problem that we cannot resolve within the context of our own domestic legislation. Mark Field: Is the right hon. Gentleman happy for Many of the communications service providers are not me to put it on the record that it is also the case that based in the UK; they are based mostly in the United many CSPs do a very good job of co-operating with the States. Increasingly, the Republic of Ireland is seen as a police and law enforcement agencies? Part of the difficulty location of choice for some companies. Google and has been that the revelations of the past 14 or 15 months perhaps one other CSP have already relocated there. It have exposed what some would call an over-cosy is increasingly clear that whatever legislation we put in relationship between those service providers and the place, it will not, of itself, be enough to resolve the state. I am talking about not so much here in the UK, problem. but in mainland Europe and the United States of America, and it has been commercially damaging to many of Mark Field: Does the right hon. Gentleman also those providers. accept that the increased knowledge of the general public and—dare I say it—of individuals who would do Mr Howarth: As always, the hon. Gentleman makes a us harm about the techniques adopted by the security good point. Sometimes the difficulty is that the amount services and others have also helped to ensure that there of data and communications that providers store means is now much more sophisticated encryption in place, that they are unable to know what is there. Very often, which also plays an important part in further reducing controls are triggered electronically, and so human eyes our capacity to know precisely what is happening on might not necessarily see the communication that relates the internet? to a terrorist plot, organised crime or even, in a hidden 817 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 818 corner of it all, some kind of child abuse. Quite often, the years we have written into legislation protection for no human eyes see it, and it may be that only after an journalists, as well as for other professions where there event—as in the case of Fusilier Lee Rigby—do people are issues of confidentiality, and the House has accepted become aware that there was a communication that that in all the debates so far. indicated that someone was about to or was likely to do something, and that knowing about it could have made Sir Alan Beith: It might be better expressed as “protection a difference, as we concluded in our report the other for sources”, because the primary concern is not to give week. Perhaps I have presented too cynical a picture of a special elevated status to the journalist, but to avoid a communications service providers. I know that, on occasion, situation in which the questions are asked, “Who told they do co-operate constructively, but I believe that him and how can we get him?” increasingly we need the space in which they operate to be better regulated, and that requires international controls agreed between responsible allies and CSPs themselves. John McDonnell: Exactly. I was not arguing for preferential status for journalists—God forbid that I do that here. I was coming on to that point: this is about 3pm the ability to make sure a source is protected—as we all I will end my speech by discussing an issue on which I know, sources are often whistleblowers, blowing the know my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and whistle on abuses by public authorities and others—but Harlington (John McDonnell) is likely to speak next, it is also relevant to the protection of journalists themselves. which is privileged information and certain professions We have seen across the world how, when the confidentiality “immunity” from these provisions. I think the principle of journalists’ sources is undermined, journalists become is correct: there are certain discussions and areas of just as much a target as their sources, and in recent information that should be privileged—for example, if years large numbers of journalists in various countries somebody talks with their legal adviser or gives information have died as a result of persecution. What I am trying to to a journalist or even in the privacy of a Member of say is that it is critical that we protect the role journalists Parliament’s surgery. However, I am not sure that the play and enable them to undertake their work. amendment my hon. Friend has tabled would achieve We have legislated in accordance with that principle—in that end without creating a gap between what is necessary PACE, for example. I agree with my right hon. Friend and what is desirable. I simply echo what has been said the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) that it is by the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster always difficult to find the mechanism, but the mechanism in asking how we define a legitimate professional journalist. under PACE was the ability of the court to determine There are thousands and thousands of people online whether a production order should be made. We gave it who would consider themselves journalists but who over to the courts to determine that. What was important may well have ulterior motives or connections with a about that is that the journalist was notified of the terrorist community or with people plotting terrorism. application and could contest it before the court, and a As a matter of principle, I think my hon. Friend is decision would then be made that commanded the right, but we need to find proper ways to make sure that confidence of all those involved. The classic case since exceptions to the rule are governed under the same rules then is when the police failed to get an order under as everybody else. [Interruption.] Does my hon. Friend PACE and then used RIPA to obtain an order against a wish to intervene? journalist to get information relating to articles that were being written, including the sources of that John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) indicated information. I think it was generally felt in the House dissent. that that was not what we intended when we passed PACE and was not in the spirit of RIPA. We have for Mr Howarth: I look forward to hearing what my hon. some time consistently tried to get Government and this Friend has to say.I acknowledge that he and his supporters House—the responsibility falls on the shoulders of us have a valid point to make. I just think it is a tricky area all—to do exactly as my right hon. Friend said and to in which to legislate and there might be a better way of find an appropriate mechanism. doing it that we have not thought of yet. I tabled new clause 1 because I cannot find an effective mechanism other than the use of the courts at some John McDonnell: Everyone else who has spoken so far stage. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon seems to have explained my amendments, and I am Hull North (Diana Johnson) asked whether it is a grateful to them. I tabled new clause 1 and amendment 11 mechanism enabling the court to determine whether because there is now a sense of urgency about dealing due process has been followed or the merits of a case. I with this matter. I speak as the secretary of the National have left that open for now because I welcome the Union of Journalists group in Parliament—a group of discussion, but in my view, it is both. MPs drawn from various political parties in the House. Throughout proceedings on RIPA and DRIPA and Julian Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? now this Bill, we have been discussing this issue. To put it simply, this House has always recognised in legislation the need to protect journalists, because we see journalism John McDonnell: I hope the hon. Gentleman is not as one of the bulwarks of democracy in this country. going to ask me a detailed question about my long-term Although we may not be enamoured of journalists or future policy. individual newspapers at times, we believe they play a vital democratic role in exposing what happens, particularly Julian Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree in regard to the behaviour of public authorities, that a mechanism is already in place, because David governments, corporations and others. That is why over Anderson is conducting a review of the rules and 819 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 820

[Julian Smith] At this stage, it is critical that the code is published and implemented as quickly as possible, as a stepping regulations. In tabling the amendments, the hon. Gentleman stone to what might then come out of the wider review. has jumped the gun. Surely we have to wait for David I tabled an amendment to ensure that the legislation Anderson’s report. should not be implemented until the review is concluded, and I can argue that case. Hon. Members can see where John McDonnell: That is a valid point. I tabled the I am coming from. I want a sense of urgency to give at amendments to say that there is a sense of urgency. least some protection to journalists in the interim before Something needs to be done now; some steps need to be the review is published, which I believe it will be in a taken immediately—before the Anderson review, to be period of time that has been designated. I hope that the frank. review will contain a recommendation that there should be some process in which the courts are involved. I do I have raised this matter previously and engaged in not believe that there will be sufficient protection against dialogue with the Minister. I have a clutch of papers in-house decisions by any authority, be it the police, the here, because I wanted to be sure of the accuracy of my intelligence services or, as we have seen with RIPA, local remarks. I raised it way back on 22 July, in the debate on authorities and other agencies, which have used RIPA regulations made under DRIPA. The Minister responded to investigate their staff, journalists and others on some in a letter received on 28 July: of the most trivial grounds. In one instance, it was for “The Government…intend to bring forward amendments to the protection of the council’s reputation. I do not the Acquisition and Disclosure Code of Practice to make this believe that in-house procedures would satisfy the general clear”. public or Members of this House. That is why I hope What he was making clear was, I think, the importance that some process will come out of the review which will of some form of understanding of the role of journalists involve the courts. My view is that there should be not and their sources, and therefore sensitivity in the approach just a review of the process but in some instances a taken. That becomes even more important now that in review of the merits of the case itself. this legislation we are extending the range of the data to I note that not just this review but a range of reviews be collected. I take the point that this does not identify are taking place. I also note that some momentum is individuals, but on the information provided by Big building for involving the courts. The Deputy Prime Brother Watch and contained in the House of Commons Minister and—well, blow me—the Mayor of London research paper, the definitions have been narrowed. Big have called for the law to be changed to require a judge Brother Watch is concerned about to sign off applications involving the data of journalists. “the possibility of more personal information being accessed The Government would be wise, once the review is than first implied. … This means that the identity of an individual finished, to come forward with proposals that involve has the potential to be fully revealed by these powers.” some form of judicial oversight of the process. That There is thus some uncertainty about how the powers would build the confidence of professionals. could be used to drill down into the information to My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull identify an individual and therefore a source and put North raised the issue of other professions. I understand everyone at risk. her particular example involving the medical profession, I do not believe that the code has yet been published. but that would be determined by a court. The merits of I will give way to the Minister if he wishes to tell me. the case plus the process would be argued in such a case.

James Brokenshire: I intend to address that point 3.15 pm specifically when I respond to the debate, which I hope Since the revelations that a number of Members of will be helpful to the hon. Gentleman. Parliament have had our telephone calls with our constituents who are prisoners intercepted—tapped—there John McDonnell: I am never sure what it means when is now a greater sense of urgency to ensure confidence a Minister says that he is about to be helpful. He was in the ability of certain professionals and others to helpful when I led a delegation from the NUJ with its maintain confidentiality. It is important that the lawyer to meet the civil servants who were drafting the Government give some serious attention to making new code of practice. We put some suggestions to them. recommendations to protect us all. Journalists can become I note—I am sorry to scramble around with these bits extremely vulnerable if their sources are revealed, but so of paper—that the new code of practice on covert can MPs. That breakdown of confidentiality between surveillance comes into effect on 10 December, and it an MP and their constituent can make us vulnerable to covers legally privileged and confidential information. charges of collusion and other nefarious actions, so It demonstrates that particular care should be taken in there is an urgency about this. We need imminent cases in which the subject of the investigation or operation publication of an effective code of practice, and, I hope, might reasonably expect a high degree of privacy or once the review is published, imminent legislation to where confidential information is involved. Confidential involve the courts in the oversight of the whole process. information consists of communications subject to legal We have gone from RIPA to DRIPA to this Bill, which privilege, communications between a Member of Parliament seems to be mission creep on the extension of data and and another person—the point that my right hon. Friend communications powers. the Member for Knowsley raised—on constituency matters, confidential personal information or confidential journalistic Mark Field: I very much agree that we should be material, so there is an element of reference to privilege proud of the traditions of a free press in this country. and the role of journalists in other codes coming into The hon. Gentleman has not yet answered on the extent force this week. of journalism. I accept that new clause 1(6) is not 821 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 822 exhaustive, but he has not mentioned religious counsellors, and he is right to make the point. I will come on to the whom many would consider to have a similar duty of possible next steps in the context of the various reviews care. Does the hon. Gentleman have any thoughts on that are taking place. that, though I accept that he has not made an exhaustive The gap was highlighted by the right hon. Member list at this stage? [Interruption.] for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). I know that his Committee is looking carefully at the issue of privacy versus security. John McDonnell: My right hon. Friend the Member The need to strike a balance between them and some of for Knowsley says that my local parish priest rather the issues arising from that have rightly been played out optimistically describes me as a lapsed Catholic. The in the context of interception, data retention and secrets of the confessional need to be included; otherwise, communications data. I look forward to the publication there might be an excommunication. of the Committee’s report, which I expect to be extremely The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster informative in this regard. (Mark Field) makes a good point about journalism. I would like the definition to be membership of the NUJ, Mark Field: Without giving a preview of anything in but there you are. These days, I would have the widest the Committee report, I think it is important, for the interpretation, but if it is to be contested, I would like to benefit of the House and those Members who take the see a court make the decision on the basis of the matter very seriously, that we should remember that evidence before it. privacy and security are not a zero sum game. Although my hon. Friend uses the word “balance”, as many of us do from time to time, there is also a sense that these are Sir Alan Beith: It is important that we distinguish important safeguards individually and in their own what we are talking about here—the protection of the right. One of the broader recommendations that we conversations that take place between lawyers and their make from the evidence we took from a wide range of clients and between doctors and their patients, discovered people is that the notion that there is a balance and a by entirely different processes. We are looking at the zero sum game should be dispelled. identification of the person who tipped someone off or provided some information. There may be good criminal James Brokenshire: I appreciate the comments of my law reasons for finding out who that person is, but I hon. Friend. As a member of the Intelligence and agree that some kind of measure is needed to ensure Security Committee, he will recognise the challenges. that those who warn a journalist or perhaps a Member He is right to underline the significance and to reiterate of Parliament that something serious is going wrong what I said on Second Reading—that security and have protection. liberty should be mutually reinforcing. His point about it not being a zero sum game is well made. John McDonnell: Let me give one example of where The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North RIPA was used. The case of Kirsty Green was in the (Diana Johnson) who speaks for the Opposition identified evidence presented to the Home Affairs Committee by a list of 10 points, and I will do my best to respond to Michelle Stanistreet, the general secretary of the NUJ. some of them. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington Kirsty was a former regional newspaper journalist. (John McDonnell) underlined the role of sensitive categories Derby council spied on her meeting with local authority of person and additional safeguards that may be provided staff in 2009. Two Derby city council employees watched in respect of them when we consider communications her when, as Derby Telegraph’s local government data and the ability of the police to request such data. correspondent, she met four current and former council As my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- employees in a Starbucks coffee shop. The local authority Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) pointed out, we are looking at said that RIPA was used to get surveillance authority metadata—who said what to whom, when and where— for officials because they were protecting the council’s rather than the content. interests. The consequences for those individuals was a It is clear from the contributions that we have heard risk to their job in the local authority. that gaps in communications data capability have a It is important that communication is protected, but serious impact on the ability of law enforcement and names and sources also have to be protected, especially intelligence agencies to carry out their functions—the for whistleblowers, as we have seen when social workers point that was made clearly by the right hon. Member have come forward in child abuse cases. The right hon. for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) and the shadow Minister. Gentleman makes the point well, but to me it emphasises One such gap is internet protocol address resolution. even further the need for some judicial process in the The Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014 oversight of access to the data and the way in which the maintained our lawful data retention regime. It did not legislation has been proposed. create any additional powers, nor did it address any of the gaps in capability. To respond to the point made by James Brokenshire: We have had an interesting and the hon. Lady, we remain confident about the manner informative debate focusing on the broader aspects of in which it did that in seeking to address the points the ability of the law enforcement and intelligence agencies raised by the European Court of Justice. to do their job in a fast-moving environment where Clause 17 amends that Act—DRIPA—to ensure that technology continues to change, and their ability to communications service providers can be required to continue to protect us in those circumstances. I will retain the data necessary to link the unique attributes of argue that we have an eroding capability and although an internet connection to the person or device using the measure will deal with one element, there is still it at any given time. Every internet user is assigned an more that we need to do. That is a point on which my IP address to ensure that communications service hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian providers know which data should go to which customer Smith) has intervened on other speakers in the debate and route it accordingly.Addresses are sometimes assigned 823 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 824

[James Brokenshire] On the hon. Lady’s specific point about web logs, I can assure the Committee that the Bill is already tightly to a specific device, such as a broadband router located drafted. In particular, clause 17(3)(c) excludes so-called in a home or within the work environment, but they are web logs. It provides for the retention of data relating to usually shared between multiple users— hundreds or IP resolution, and only such data. Anything else is even thousands—and allocated automatically by the already beyond the scope of what the clause permits. provider’s systems. Many providers currently have no Accordingly, although I entirely agree with the sentiment business reason for keeping a log of who has used each behind the amendment, I do not believe that it is address. It is therefore not always possible for law necessary. enforcement agencies accessing the data to identify who was using an IP address at any specific point in time. 3.30 pm The provision would ensure that these data are available The hon. Lady sought to look at some of the broader to law enforcement. It would improve the ability of the issues on definition, so perhaps this is an appropriate police and other agencies to identify terror suspects point to respond to some of them. She asked about the who may be communicating with each other via the definition of “identifier”. We have said that that might internet and plotting attacks. It would also help to be the IP address or another identifier, such as a MAC— identify and prosecute paedophiles, organised criminals, media access control—address, which might be needed cyber bullies and computer hackers, and to protect to specify the relevant identity, which is why the clause vulnerable people. For example, it could be used to is drafted in that way. It is also intended to ensure that identify a child who has threatened over social media the provisions are technology neutral. “IP address to commit suicide. The IP address has direct relevance resolution” is not a technical or legal term; it is a phrase to all these issues and it is evidence that can be brought commonly used to describe the process of attributing before the court. In the context of the previous debate, an internet connection to an individual or device. That it is often instrumental in bringing prosecutions. process can require a number of different pieces of Communications data are used in about 95% of all communications data of different types. None the less, serious crime prosecutions, so they have a direct utility. the Bill carefully defines what it is intended to cover. I Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Just a question to want to reassure her in that regard. the Minister—does this also apply to medical in confidence I will try to answer the hon. Lady’s 10 specific questions communication between, say, a doctor and a patient, with the information I have in front of me, but if I miss and documents being intercepted, or am I totally out to any I will reflect on the Hansard report of this debate lunch, as it were? and write to her with any information she is seeking. She asked for a list of the data types in the Bill. It is James Brokenshire: I am not sure that my hon. Friend important that the legislation is technology neutral, and would ever be out to lunch, particularly at 3.26 in the spelling out a detailed list of data types that could afternoon. I think he is talking about interception. The change over a short period would not make it future-proof. clause is about the connection, the metadata—about The Government made it clear during the scrutiny of who communicated with whom—rather than the content the draft Communications Data Bill that any long-term of the communication. The hon. Member for Hayes replacement legislation must be technology neutral so and Harlington spoke specifically about interception as to keep pace with technological change in the and the way in which certain protected categories of communications industry. That remains the case. individual may be affected. My hon. Friend highlights a The hon. Lady will be well aware of the review that specific point, but I will come on to communications David Anderson is conducting, which is due to report data, DRIPA and the codes of practice, and the status next May. She will also know that, as per the discussions of certain individuals in respect of requests that may be we had on DRIPA, the Bill is time-limited to December made for that information. 2016. Indeed, she will note that the provisions in clause 17 Amendment 5, as the hon. Lady explained when she are time-limited to December 2016, for the very reason moved it, seeks to limit the scope of the provision to the that the House will need to return to these matters in retention of data that is necessary to allow the identification the next Parliament. I think that is right and proper, so of a user from a public internet protocol address. I am that the issue can be considered in the round and in the pleased to say that there is no difference of principle light of the different reports, including the ISC report, between us on this issue. It is important that this provision David Anderson’s report and the Home Affairs Committee’s goes no further than necessary to ensure that report, which was published in the past few days, in order communications service providers can be required to to inform a measured, proper debate in the next Parliament retain the data necessary to link the unique attributes of on these issues, recognising the speed at which DRIPA an internet connection to the person or device using it was brought before the House and, equally, to ensure at any given time. that the legislation remains in the right place. I can confirm that the provision is already limited in the way the Opposition propose. Subsection (3) defines Mr George Howarth: I have a suggestion. Where a the data to be retained as data that situation is changing rapidly, such issues are sometimes “may be used to identify, or assist in indentifying, which internet dealt with in legislation by adding a schedule that can protocol address, or other identifier, belongs to the sender or then be updated by order. It is not necessarily the best recipient of a communication”. way, but it is one way of dealing with that type of As such, any data that cannot be used to identify, or situation. assist in identifying, the user of an IP address are already outside the scope of the provision. A requirement James Brokenshire: I recognise that in certain to retain the data may only be imposed where it is circumstances that might be appropriate, but the challenge necessary and proportionate to do so. in this case is the fast-paced nature of technology, 825 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 826 which means we would always be playing catch-up. The The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North original RIPA legislation was therefore intended to be asked about the role of the interception of communications technology neutral so that, if the technology moved on, commissioner. He will oversee the acquisition of data it was still able to capture that, just as our criminal law retained under clause 17, just as he oversees the acquisition is intended to cover all forms of communications. I of all communications data retained under DRIPA. think that might be a better way of seeking to achieve The Home Office will ensure that he has the necessary that. However, that is part and parcel of David Anderson’s resources to discharge his function. review of RIPA, and therefore the existing legislation The hon. Lady referred to multiple requests for traffic and a number of the themes that have been touched on and subscriber data. Public authorities can request by right hon. and hon. Members in this debate, and also communications data only when it is considered necessary the continuing utility of these provisions. and proportionate for one of the purposes set out in DRIPA. A communications service provider could disclose Julian Smith: It will be almost two years since the only data that have been requested. It is an operational Liberal Democrats and one or two other Members matter for the public authority as to how it makes such scuppered the Communications Data Bill. What is the requests for data. Where it holds limited information at Minister’s assessment of the risk of waiting until next the outset of the investigation, it is likely that it will year, because my concern is that the enemy is not going need to make more than one request, which means there away? may be multiple requests relating to a particular criminal inquiry. James Brokenshire: This issue is not going away, and The hon. Lady highlighted the issue of costs. The we need to make further changes. I can see the eroding totals that were put into the impact assessment published capability of our law enforcement and security agencies. alongside the Bill were based on studies of IP resolution While this plugs an element, there is still more to be conducted by the industry and prior work with service done to ensure that our police and security services are providers and the industry on similar projects. This has able to protect us, and that there is evidence that can been an informed process in which there has been be presented in court. On these issues relating to consultation with individual service providers likely to communications data, we are talking about evidence, be most affected by the provisions of the Bill. not merely intelligence. These are hard pieces of information I am grateful to the hon. Lady for tabling new clause 2 that can be presented in court to secure prosecutions. to highlight the oversight of the acquisition of This is really essential because of the underpinning that communications data retained under these provisions. it provides to our prosecutorial system. The data retention regulations passed earlier this year specifically require communications service providers, The Bill does not incorporate provisions on weblogs, subject to a data retention notice, to retain data in such but apps and weblogs can be directly instructive in this a way as to ensure that they are available without undue respect, and the House will need to confront that in, I delay in response to requests. I assure the Committee hope, an informed way. The reviews that the Intelligence that in the vast majority of cases, data retained under and Security Committee and David Anderson are this obligation are disclosed in a timely fashion. Of undertaking will inform that debate rather than its course, things may not always work perfectly, but there being completely informed by belief or emotion, important are systems in place that seek to resolve such issues as those elements are to ensure that it is properly should they arise. Indeed, there are industry groups that reflective of the view of our communities and the work on precisely that. The law enforcement community public. We must ensure that the facts are there as we works closely with the communication service providers, examine the picture, in order to provide the basis for a and the Home Office seeks to establish the best technical rational debate when the House considers the legislation solutions to support that. it will need to pass before December 2016. The issue that we hear about more often than that highlighted by the hon. Lady is the broader one of key Mark Field: Does my hon. Friend accept that another categories of communications data which communication issue, which was skilfully outlined by the hon. Member service providers do not currently retain and which are for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), is arbitrage, therefore unavailable to the law enforcement and security in the sense of authorities being able to choose one agencies that require them. The hon. Lady raised the piece of legislation rather than another—for example, issue of additional regulations. The provision amends as he said, RIPA rather than PACE? Given the the definition of “relevant communications data”. The complications arising from there being more and more regulations use that definition, so there is no need to legislation in this area, is it not almost essential to move amend further or to put it in other regulations, because towards a consolidation to ensure that we entirely the intention is that they will follow the change being understand our rights and responsibilities? made to this Bill. On deep packet inspection, no solution will provide James Brokenshire: I am sure that that issue will be for the retention of or access to the content of a presented in representations made to David Anderson communication. Obviously, it is for the companies as part of his examination. Clearly, none of us will wish themselves to decide how best to implement the legal in any way to prejudge the way in which that evidence is requirements that would be put upon them, but I wanted presented. He intends to report back by May. That is to make that point clear. the right timing to ensure that the new Parliament after On compatibility with the European Court judgment, the next general election has the benefit of seeing his we are confident that the legislation passed by Parliament report, which will have examined these issues in close this summer, and this Bill, are fully compliant with all and careful detail. relevant legal provisions. 827 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 828

[James Brokenshire] the designated person’s independence from the operation for which data are needed. We have also made it clear Although I share the Opposition’s wish to see the that new requirements will deal with the very area—those most efficient and timely provision of data, I do not in sensitive professions—covered by new clause 1. believe that the special review proposed by new clause 2 Designated persons will have to give extra consideration is required. Indeed, if there are concerns they can be to a communications data request involving those in referred to David Anderson as part of his review. With professions with duties of confidentiality, such as journalists, that assurance, I hope the hon. Lady will be minded to and records must be kept of such applications. withdraw her amendment. The changes will be made in an updated acquisition In new clause 1, the hon. Member for Hayes and and disclosure of communications data code of practice. Harlington (John McDonnell) raises the specific and I can announce to the Committee this afternoon that important issue of the position of journalists and others we are launching a consultation on the draft acquisition in relation to sensitive provision. He and I debated the and disclosure of communications data code of practice issue when the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers and on the draft retention of communications data Act 2014 made its way through Parliament this summer. code of practice. I will put copies of the drafts in the Let me be clear that a free press is fundamental to a free Library of the House. There will be a public consultation society, and the Government are determined that nothing on the codes before they are finalised for approval by be done to put that at risk. Although most of the focus the House. To reassure the hon. Member for Hayes and in the debate has been on journalists, the same issues Harlington, and to meet the commitment I made to him arise equally in respect of other sensitive occupations, during the passage of DRIPA, we are now consulting as Members have highlighted. Individuals should be on the codes to ensure that they are properly considered able to speak freely and frankly to their lawyers if we and assessed. are to have justice in this country. Similarly, patients I have dealt with DRIPA and existing provisions must be able to speak freely to doctors, and constituents under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, but to their Members of Parliament. what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting goes further and I do not believe that anyone would question that therefore touches on broader issues. A system of judicial those are important principles, but equally I hope that authorisation was considered in significant detail by the no one would take issue with the proposition that our Joint Committee on the draft Communications Data law enforcement and intelligence agencies need the tools Bill. Its view was that to carry out their vital roles. They carry out a difficult “the current internal authorisation procedure is the right model.” job day in, day out, protecting the public from crime and from terrorism. The Regulation of Investigatory It went further, stating that it was Powers Act 2000 provides a clear legal basis for many of “not convinced that in reality a magistrate would provide a their critical investigative powers, including the acquisition tougher authorisation test than the current system. Magistrates and disclosure of communications data. The current would not have access to the SPoC expertise to advise them on the process is clear and accountable and includes a strong necessity and proportionality of each request.” and rigorous system of oversight. I have already explained As Members will be aware, the Home Affairs Committee what communications data are, but they do not contain examined the very issue of access, under RIPA, to the the content of the communication. communications data of those with duties of confidentiality, I should like to point out that the interception and it published its report on Saturday. The report of communications commissioner has said that includes recommendations about those with duties of communications data confidentiality. The changes we make to the code of “do not contain any details of what was said or written by the practice will reflect the substance of the Select Committee’s sender or the recipient of the communication. As such, the recommendations. Notably, the Committee did not communications data retained by CSPs do not contain any material recommend the form of judicial oversight suggested in that may be said to be of professional or legal privilege—the fact new clause 1. that a communication took place does not provide what was discussed or considered or advised.” David Anderson, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, is reviewing the powers and capabilities needed The point that the data do not attract any form of legal under DRIPA, including communications data, and he or professional privilege is important. Nevertheless, the is due to report by 1 May. As I have already highlighted, Government recognise that they are sensitive data that the Intelligence and Security Committee is also considering need to be protected accordingly. that very point. The process of acquiring communications data requires a designated person—a senior officer of a rank stipulated The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington will be by Parliament—to examine applications for such data, aware that the interception of communications which can be authorised only when the officer is fully commissioner is conducting a separate inquiry on this satisfied that it is both necessary and proportionate to matter. He will report back every six months. He is in acquire those data. The applications are facilitated by the middle of an inquiry into police access to the individuals known as single points of contact, who are communications data of journalists, and we fully support trained in this area and can provide expert advice and that inquiry. The commissioner has said that he expects support to the designated person. to complete it by 31 January, which may help the hon. Gentleman. We will of course consider very carefully any recommendations made by the commissioner, and I 3.45 pm am sure his conclusions will be studied by the whole During the passage of DRIPA, the Government made House. Indeed, the timing of his report will inform our it clear that they would fortify the already rigorous consideration of the consultation on the codes of practice. regime, including by strengthening the requirement for I can certainly assure the Committee that the Government 829 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 830 will take any recommendations very seriously and, where Clause 18 appropriate, we will reflect them in the new code of practice. AUTHORITY-TO-CARRY SCHEMES John McDonnell: I am grateful to the Minister for Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the launching the consultation on the code of practice. It is Bill. important to have a balanced view of the Home Affairs Committee report, which concluded that The Temporary Chair (Mr David Amess): With this it “RIPA is not fit for purpose”. will be convenient to discuss the following: Although it did go so far as to make a specific Clause 19 stand part. recommendation on the involvement of the courts, the Clause 20 stand part. Committee suggested that That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill. “the Home Office use the current review of the RIPA Code to ensure that law enforcement agencies use their RIPApowers properly.” James Brokenshire: Part 4 and schedule 2 deal with What action has the Minister taken on that point, aviation, maritime and rail security. For the benefit of bearing in mind that a legal action is also taking place the Committee, I will go through each of the provisions, at the moment? listen to right hon. and hon. Members’ contributions James Brokenshire: I am constrained in what I can and then respond to their questions. I welcome the right say because of the legal action that the hon. Gentleman hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) to the Opposition highlights, but I hope he will see that the code of Front Bench. He has taken a close interest in these practice and the consultation address a number of the issues. key recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee Clause 18 provides a new legal basis for the operation report that was published on Saturday, such as those on of authority-to-carry schemes, which are commonly the manner in which the existing legislation is operated known as no-fly schemes. We have a scheme in place in practice. that relates to passengers being carried to the UK. The The hon. Gentleman will know that David Anderson clause makes provision for a broader scheme that relates is conducting a broader examination of the legislation, to individuals who are arriving or are expected to arrive including the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, in the UK, and individuals who are leaving or are and will report in May. That will inform consideration expected to leave the UK. in the next Parliament of the provisions that are on the Authority to carry is necessary to prevent the entry or statute book. I assure him that it will address the issue return to the UK of foreign nationals who pose a of separation and the need for additional consideration terrorism-related threat and to mitigate the threat of an to be given to requests that touch on protected professions. attack, primarily on aircraft. It is also necessary to However, I would not want an amendment that was disrupt the return to the UK, and prevent the departure passed today to pre-empt the interception of from the UK, of British nationals who are subject to communications commissioner’s inquiry. We do not legal restrictions on their travel. Under the clause, any know what he will conclude. It is right that we should scheme must set out the carriers to which it applies and wait for him to report and then consider his the classes of individuals a carrier may be refused recommendations, rather than make a major change authority to carry to or from the UK. Classes of individuals now, when questions have been raised about the benefits may be specified in a scheme only if it is necessary in the and utility of such an approach. public interest. When travelling to the UK, that could Finally, I hope to deal swiftly with amendment 11, include persons who are excluded or have been deported which would prevent the provisions relating to IP resolution from the UK, individuals whose presence in the UK from being brought into force until the interception of would not be conducive to the public good, and those communications commissioner had completed his review who would otherwise be inadmissible to the UK. It may of the accessing of journalists’ communications data, to also include individuals subject to a temporary exclusion which I just referred. I think I can reassure hon. Members order under clause 2. on that point. As I have said, the commissioner intends When travelling from the UK, carriers might be to report by the end of January. The Bill will not directed not to carry individuals subject to a TPIM or a complete its passage through this House until after the post-custodial licence preventing travel following a Christmas recess. After that, it needs to go through the conviction for a terrorism-related offence. The scheme House of Lords and there might have to be consideration may also include individuals who have had their passport of Lords amendments in this House. Even without that, cancelled or not issued on public interest grounds, or there seems to be no way the Bill could achieve Royal seized under powers in schedule 1. Any scheme must set Assent before the commissioner reports at the end of out the process for carriers to request authority to carry, January. We therefore do not believe that amendment 11 and state how that authority is granted or refused. That is required. may include requirements for carriers to provide passenger In the light of what I have said, I hope that hon. information by a certain time before departure, or for Members will not press their amendments. carriers to be able to receive information that grants or refuses authority to carry in a way compatible with the Diana Johnson: I thank the Minister for going through Government’s border system. all the questions that I posed. On the basis of what he We will work with carriers to resolve any compliance has said, I happily beg to ask leave to withdraw the issues, but if a carrier fails to comply, clause 19 provides amendment. regulations to impose a civil penalty on those who Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. breach a scheme. The new regulations set out how a Clause 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill. penalty will be calculated, imposed and enforced, and 831 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 832

[James Brokenshire] security directions become effective in the shortest possible time. In addition, it inserts a power into the Aviation must provide a means for carriers to object to a proposed Security Act 1982 for the Secretary of State to make penalty. The regulations are subject to the affirmative regulations to introduce civil sanctions for non-compliance procedure, and the authority-to-carry scheme to which by the aviation industry, with information requests or the regulations refer must be laid in Parliament at the security directions subject to the affirmative procedure. same time. Clause 20 makes provision for schedule 2 to the Bill. 4pm Part 1 of schedule 2 amends passenger, crew and service Julian Smith: We are all aware that Eurotunnel is information relating to aircraft and ships, and may be expanding its services, with more train services going to extended to international trains through secondary the continent. Will the Minister confirm that the provisions legislation. Paragraphs 1(2) and 1(3) mean that a carrier will apply to those services? may be required to be able to receive communications about information that it has provided to the border James Brokenshire: Under existing regulations and authorities in a way compatible with the Government’s requirements, existing Eurostar and freight services through border system. That might be a simple receipt, or an the channel tunnel are already obliged to meet security alert about errors in the format of the information. requirements on screening and other steps. The intent Paragraphs 1(4) and 1(7) of schedule 2 allow the behind the provisions in the Bill is to look to a future regulations to introduce requirements for advance where we have open access, and ensure we have the information about persons on flights or voyages to and ability to impose similar controls, assurances and protections from the UK that do not operate to a published schedule— in relation to security.It is precisely for that future-proofing collectively referred to as “general aviation” and “general that we are introducing the provisions. I hope that maritime.” The regulations will set out the classes of explanation is helpful to the Committee. ships or aircraft to which they apply, the information required, the time by which it must be supplied, and Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): There has been a how it is to be supplied. That will allow a much clearer change on the Opposition Front Bench, while the Minister picture of incoming and outgoing traffic and the has had to continue, but I assure him that he will have identification of aircraft and ships that require close our support on this group. attention from the border authorities. Those paragraphs There is a substantial and severe threat of terrorist also provide for regulations to impose a civil penalty for attack in the United Kingdom and the Opposition a failure to comply with new requirements to provide support the broad thrust of these measures. The Minister information. The regulations may set out how a penalty did not explicitly say it, but the explanatory notes will be calculated, administered and enforced, and make indicate that about 500 individuals have travelled to provision for an appeal. Syria and Iraq because of their wish to join terrorist organisations, in particular ISIL. The measures are Bob Stewart: The Minister has not mentioned this so designed to enhance legislation—section 124 of the far, although I assume he will come to it, but is it correct Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002, put in to say that if a carrier brings someone to this country place by the previous Labour Government, and the who we do not want to come, not only will it receive a Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (Authority civil penalty, it has a responsibility to take that person to Carry) Regulations 2012—in response to the changed back to whence they came immediately? circumstances. We support the broad thrust of the measures. James Brokenshire: As my hon. Friend will realise, I have a few questions for the Minister and I hope he provisions in the Bill overlap with other issues and will reflect on them. They relate mostly to consultation, provisions. He will be aware of sanctions that are already cost and scope. The Minister said that clauses 18 and 19 available and establish penalties for those who have no form the main provisions for the changes to authority- lawful authority to be in the UK, and of the checks that to-carry schemes, and that clause 20 and schedule 2 are obliged on people to ensure that appropriate visa or amend the law on the provision of information from other requirements are in place. These measures build carriers to the Secretary of State. The explanatory notes on that and there are established processes for the state that the Minister has undertaken a consultation, return of individuals who should not be here. but I think he will recognise that the consultation was The new transport security provisions in part 2 of swift, if I may say so, and relatively short. I would schedule 2 build on existing powers and enhance our welcome information on who responded to the consultation ability to respond effectively to transport-related terrorism and what the responses were. If he does not have that threats. They amend transport security legislation to information today, perhaps he could write to me. strengthen existing powers and require certain security I raise those issues because the Government’s impact measures to be implemented before an operator may assessment makes it clear that the measures, although operate into the UK or, in the case of ships, a UK port. welcome, relate to border security and will cost The schedule makes similar provisions for services in UK-registered businesses about £2.1 million net cost a the aviation, maritime and rail transport industries. year, with start-up costs approaching £10 million, at The schedule inserts provisions into the respective £9.7 million. The Minister has information relating to aviation, rail and maritime statutes enabling faster collection 11 scheduled registered carriers, but he will know that of security related information from operators. It provides 144 carriers were not included in the assessment. Many enabling powers to make regulations, imposing a wider carriers do not currently have the systems, which are range of methods for electronic service of security referred to in previous legislation, in place. Scheduled directions or requests for information, to ensure that carriers may be required to install interactive systems 833 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 834 that would mean no-fly alerts and passenger screening the Minister’s consideration of the compatibility between requirements provided directly into carriers’ systems. them and our obligations to our European colleagues The impact assessment makes it clear that while there and elsewhere. are 11 registered carriers, of which only one already uses The Labour party supports the measures because of the system the Government want, there are 144 carriers the threat and the need to monitor and to take effective operating scheduled flights into and out of the UK that action against not just those coming to the UK, but are not UK-registered, of which only 11 use the system those leaving the UK. The need to ensure that we the Government want to introduce. I would welcome prevent individuals leaving these shores from undertaking some clarity from the Minister not just as to the discussions terrorist acts is paramount. The Minister will not find a he has had with the registered carriers, but on what cigarette paper between us on dealing with that issue assessment he has made of the wider costs for those but I hope that he is able to reflect on the points I have carriers that are not registered. For a non-interactive made today on three issues: cost, compatibility with carrier, the estimated cost of implementing an interactive other legislation in Europe and beyond, and the key system is £975,000, with annual maintenance costs of question of implementation, not just in terms of current £125,000. That means that there could be costs of carriers but in terms of the carriers who are not registered around £139 million to non-UK carriers who do not but who do currently travel both to and from the UK. have those systems in place. The impact assessment says: “The consultation to gather relevant data was brief. Whilst Mr Khalid Mahmood: While endorsing everything my data was provided by a sample of UK carriers we cannot be sure right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) they are fully representative. In addition different carriers may has said and in restating some of the issues around costs face different costs dependent on their size or their existing and capability, I think it important in considering this systems. In the absence of this data we assume that carriers are all part of the Bill not to experience the same things that affected in the same way.” we have experienced before. I am thinking of Abu That is the Government’s own impact assessment and it Rumaysah who unfortunately made his way across the is really important that, as part of our consideration sea to join ISIS, putting on his Twitter account: this afternoon, we have some indication from the Minister “What a shoddy security system Britain must have to allow me of the consultation responses. He may well already have to breeze through Europe to the Islamic State.” published these—sometimes things pass one by in opposition—and if so, I would be grateful if he could I am sure that we all want this part of the Bill to work to refer me to where they are. If not, I would be grateful if prevent that sort of thing from happening. In doing so, he published the responses to the consultation. however, we must ensure that we provide proper consultation and enough time to deal with this properly. It is also important—the Minister has touched on this—that the clauses ultimately include rail, maritime There are concerns about how we look at the problem, and non-scheduled aviation traffic as part of the regime particularly in respect of what notice carriers have when that he is seeking to introduce. But I believe—I would people can book tickets on their phones, their iPads or welcome his confirmation—that there has been limited, any other electronic instrument and can get straight to or dare I say nil, consultation with rail, maritime and the port, sometimes by rail and sometimes by air. There other suppliers. The Minister has indicated that there are important issues about the speed with which people will be affirmative resolutions on these matters, but I are able to get to the port after booking at the last would welcome him confirming at what stage he intends minute. How do we move forward and improve that to undertake further consultation on costs and system? Answering that means contending with some implementation with rail and maritime providers. very serious issues. I have had a helpful brief from the Immigration Law I want to bring to the Minister’s attention some of Practitioners Association, which has raised a number of the reasonable work that has been done on this issue, issues, some of which the Minister will be able to particularly by Sussex police. The police there have a answer. But it is important that we are clear that the programme called the “BIG MAC”, but unfortunately Minister’s aspiration—one shared by the Labour party—to this does not mean that the hon. Member for Beckenham have exit and entry checks undertaken at the earliest (Bob Stewart) is having a late lunch. In fact, it refers to opportunity is separate from the measures in the Bill, evidence-based risk factors for assessing people when particularly given the difficulties we have had with the they travel to or exit a port. It is based on “identifying, e-Borders programme recently, the cancellation of e-Borders assessing and referring”, and as my right hon. Friend and the progress that the Government seek on an entry the shadow Home Secretary said, this entails having and exit check by April 2015. Helpfully the Minister has sufficient staff and security personnel at the border. She today answered a parliamentary question to indicate said she was prepared to commit additional staff to that that is still the Government’s objective but I just deal with this issue, and I would fully endorse that wanted to examine the relationship between the proposals sentiment. in the clause, which may not be in law until February or BIG MAC is based first on behaviour, the B. It is March next year, and the wider exit and entry checks assessed during an exam, and looks at the person’s the Government are seeking to introduce. mental health, physical health, reaction when they are I would particularly welcome the Minister’s confirmation stopped, and their beliefs when they are questioned at that the measures in the Bill are fully compatible with port. The next aspect is identifying, the I, and meaning EU law and with the laws of other states that passengers and belonging, and the attitudes expressed when the will travel to and from and with whose laws carriers following issues are raised: family, friends, society, cultural must comply. It is important that we put in place change, integration and diversity, dissatisfaction with measures in our own legislation but I would welcome life, and seeking change, adventure and excitement. 835 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill9 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 836

[Mr Khalid Mahmood] James Brokenshire: I am grateful for the warm welcome given to these provisions from all parts of the House Then there is a section on grievances, the G, which this afternoon. That is because there is a recognition of involves injustice, threats and vulnerabilities. This covers the nature of the threat we now face, and of the fact the “them and us” thought process; the dehumanising that we face an enduring threat from terrorism. There of identity, beliefs, culture, society and religion; people’s are particular terrorist groups that will seek to attack place in society, culture and religion; any history of aircraft and other forms of transport, which is why we violence, whether victim or offender; and setting events must remain vigilant and continue to challenge ourselves such as past police interventions, bullying, abuse at on what further improvements can be made to legislation home, drinks, drugs and so forth. The next part deals and the schemes that are in place to ensure we have the with motivations, the M, either personal or externally right information to prevent those intent on conducting driven, and covers religious, political, ideological, cultural, such acts from boarding aircraft, trains or other forms single issues or personal issues; financial aspects; and of transport—and, indeed, ensure that our various family or friends. It then deals with attitudes, the A, forms of transport conduct appropriate searches and towards criminal offending, harmful means, being checks to make sure that appropriate standards are dominant, controlling or submissive and susceptible, met and adhered to. We seek to respond through that and activism and participation. approach and the pragmatic, practical measures set out Finally, the C in BIG MAC means capability factors, in the Bill. and these cover knowledge, skills and competencies As the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) such as fighting, training, ideologies, occupation-related highlighted, there is the further requirement for additional skills, IT, medical and so on; access to these through regulations and details of specific schemes to be brought equipment, networks, clubs, individuals and IT; criminality before this House. As that detail is then added to, it is and intervention factors, including the use of violence appropriate that ongoing consultation take place with and attitudes towards violent means; and travel history. the relevant industry sectors. I shall say a little more This BIG MAC process allows security personnel to do about that in response to the various points the right their job in accordance with strategies that have been hon. Gentleman raised. developed. I would be pleased to pass this information I am also grateful to the hon. Member for Birmingham, to the Minister if he wants to understand how the Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood) for bringing to my attention Sussex police are dealing with the problem. the work of DS Mike Redmond and the Sussex police The particular person associated with the project is based at Gatwick airport, and how bringing forward Detective Sergeant—perhaps he should be Superintendent proposals is obviously about their practical implementation. —Mike Redmond. He is based at Gatwick and has Where there is good practice, there should be networks done a huge amount of work on psychological assessment through which it can be shared, leading to greater in relation to these issues. He has put this plan forward, consistency of approach. I know the police take that and is working with the port authorities and security seriously, with the relevant structures they have enabling personnel to ensure that these sorts of recognition them to look at practice and share knowledge and factors are in place so that people can be stopped and learning. The work mentioned by the hon. Gentleman dealt with properly and formally. It is very important sounded very interesting, and I look forward to seeing that we look at these sorts of factors, but that will only further details of the BIG MAC that he will no doubt happen if we have the processes to do it. be sending through to me. In terms of the utilisation of the powers, if it is necessary and proportionate we will use powers as a 4.15 pm means of putting special additional measures in place Bob Stewart: In the old days, when I was working to combat current threats. The right hon. Gentleman with the security services in Northern Ireland, it used to will know from his previous experience how we look at be called profiling. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the threat assessments that are maintained by the joint we are looking at a form of profiling again? terrorism analysis centre, and how that may mean that additional security enhancements need to be put in Mr Mahmood: The hon. Gentleman is far more informed place in respect of particular routes or modes of transport. on these matters than I am, and I certainly would not That will inform some of the additional protective argue with him about that. This is a similar approach, security-type powers that could be drawn on in respect but it psychologically categorises the processes within of these provisions, and therefore, those specific provisions that and shows how it can be dealt with. It is easier for would be used where justified by the prevailing terrorist the people operating these systems to be able to recognise threat and the assessed risk. particular behavioural patterns and to deal with them. The right hon. Member for Delyn highlighted the This does do what the hon. Gentleman says, therefore, issue of costs, and rightly referred to the regulatory but it is important that this has already been designed impact assessment that was published alongside the and that security personnel are working with it. In order Bill. On the number of airlines that were engaged—I to meet the issues raised in clause 18, it is important will come on to talk about who was consulted—many that we have such a system in place, but the only way we airlines within the big global groups of airlines will can do that is by sharing best practice. That has already share common booking systems. Therefore, whether been done by Sussex police, and I commend that approach they are part of one alliance or another, that will to the Minister and hope he takes lessons from the work determine a number of the elements of the systems that that has already been done by Detective Sergeant Mike may be in place, and smaller airlines may piggyback on Redmond. We should all acknowledge the great work some of the bigger airlines’ systems. All airlines are not he has done. necessarily operating specific individual systems; they 837 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 9 DECEMBER 2014 838 may be utilising some of the bigger carriers’ systems as authority-to-carry scheme introduced just before the part of their global booking systems, because of the Olympic games, which is focused purely on the inbound. alliances and groups that they are part of. The intent is to have statutory underpinning and a The cost to the Government of an interactive advance statutory framework in respect of the outbound, too. passenger information system is currently £1.2 million I say to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry per year, and the staffing costs of maintaining a help Barr that legislation is in place to direct carriers on the desk to assist with interactive API is around £302,000 form in which they must provide passenger information annually. Border Force estimates that an additional to the Government’s border system. That includes the £82,000 will be required for additional staff to bolster timeliness with which data are provided relative to when the help desk as a result of the legislation. Consultation the passenger departs to or from the UK. Obviously, with airlines has shown that they recognise the significant the Bill’s provisions will also give specific statutory security and financial benefits that flow from interactive underpinning to that, to ensure that information is API systems. provided in a timely fashion. Various Governments are increasingly requiring that I noted what the right hon. Member for Delyn said their own carriers implement these types of systems and about e-Borders. The tone of this afternoon’s debate solutions, and carriers are likely to incur set-up costs, has broadly been one where everyone has shared the whether required to do so by the UK Government or same approach, but I say to him that this Government not. The right hon. Gentleman highlighted the reference have had to deal with some significant problems with a in the explanatory notes to 500 subjects of interest number of the previous Government’s systems, e-Borders having travelled to Syria and Iraq from this country. It being one of them. We have therefore made the necessary is important to understand, given the nature of the changes and checks to ensure that we have a system that travelling threat, that individuals have travelled to that delivers what it needs to deliver. area from many other countries across Europe and I am grateful for the support that has been provided across the globe, and there is a growing recognition of from all parts of the House for these provisions, and I the utility and importance of being able to use advance ask that the clause stand part of the Bill. passenger information. A number of countries globally Question put and agreed to. are seeking to align that approach in this area. Clause 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill. On the proportion of advance passenger information Clauses 19 and 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill. that we hold, as the right hon. Gentleman will know from his parliamentary questions to me, we receive Schedule 2 agreed to. advance passenger information for just over 80% of all To report progress and ask leave to sit again.—(Harriett passengers travelling to and from the UK, which is up Baldwin.) considerably from just over 60% at the end of 2009. The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. That includes 96% of all air passengers. According to Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. the European Commission, that is the highest for any European country and is among the best in the world. Business without Debate As the impact assessment indicated, we consulted all UK-registered airlines, and their comments are reflected in the impact assessment, which the right hon. Gentleman DELEGATED LEGISLATION has obviously seen. I will reflect after this debate on Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing what further details it may be possible to provide, and if Order No. 118(6)), I may, I will write to him on any further information or background that can be shared. LEGAL AID AND ADVICE On briefing others, we have briefed maritime carriers That the draft Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of and Eurotunnel, but we will be consulting further on Offenders Act 2012 (Amendment of Schedule 1) (Advocacy the detail of the regulations to be put before Parliament. Exceptions) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on With regard to rail, as I indicated in a previous intervention, 3 November, be approved.—(Harriett Baldwin.) the existing operators are already covered by a great Question agreed to. deal of the existing legislative framework, but we will Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing seek to continue to consult those that may be affected Order No. 118(6)), by any further changes introduced under authority-to-carry schemes, and it is absolutely appropriate that we do so, EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES,ETC. as the right hon. Gentleman has highlighted. On the That the draft Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment broader legal issues he proffered, it is not for me to give Businesses (Amendment) Regulations 2014, which were laid before legal advice on the Floor of the House, but I can say to this House on 11 November, be approved.—(Harriett Baldwin.) him genuinely and directly that we have undertaken a Question agreed to. full assessment of the legal implications of these proposals and consider them to be compatible. On the work the Government are doing to introduce PETITIONS exit checks by spring next year, the provisions before Campaign against “legal highs” this House are connected but separate, if I may put it in those terms. Information about passengers departing from the UK will inform the operation of outbound 4.28 pm authority-to-carry arrangements, which the Bill will put Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- on a statutory basis. Obviously, that is a significant op): In presenting this petition, I would like to thank difference between what is in this Bill and the existing my constituent Yvonne Chafey, who first began a local 839 Business without Debate9 DECEMBER 2014 Business without Debate 840

[Cathy Jamieson] Railway line adjacent to North Werrington (Peterborough) campaign to stop legal highs, and the Kilmarnock Standard and the Daily Record for publicising the issue. Hundreds 4.32 pm of people in my constituency have signed the petition. Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): The petitions The petition states: are from the residents of the Peterborough constituency The Petition of residents of Kilmarnock and Loudoun, in North Werrington and Peakirk. Declares that the Petitioners believe that the sale of substances The first petition states: commonly referred to as “legal highs” constitutes a clear and The Petition of residents of Peterborough constituency, present danger to public health, and in particular to the health of Declares that Network Rail have upgraded the continuous young people; further that the Petitioners believe that, at present, railway line adjacent to North Werrington; further that Network there is a severe lack of information available to the public Rail estimate that there will be substantial increases in freight regarding the potential physical and psychological risks associated traffic through the village of up to 23,360 additional trains per with the human consumption of such substances; and further year; further that no mitigating measures have been offered to that the risks associated with the human consumption of such reduce the significant increases in noise, vibration and pollution substances varies depending on the consumer, but are increased if created by the increase in freight traffic; and further that a local the substance is consumed in conjunction with alcohol or other petition on this matter was signed by 582 residents of North psychoactive drugs. Werrington. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Commons urges the Government to enter into discussion with urges the Government to consider whether certain substances Network Rail to discuss and agree plans to introduce noise commonly referred to as “legal highs” should be reclassified in mitigation measures such as the erection of acoustic timber order to enhance public awareness of the risks associated with fencing and plans to fit secondary glazing and/or acoustic trickle their consumption and further requests that the House urges the vents where required for properties adjacent to the train line Government to consider whether greater support should be provided which runs through North Werrington; further request that the to individuals and families affected by the use of such substances. House urges the Government to encourage Network Rail to put in place plans to plant an evergreen tree belt to help absorb And the Petitioners remain, etc. particulates emitted by diesel locomotives; and further request that the House urges the Government to ask Peterborough City [P001405] Council to consider a reduction in council tax for those properties which will be directly affected by increases in freight traffic through North Werrington. Under-occupancy penalty And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P001408] 4.31 pm Railway line adjacent to Peakirk (Peterborough) Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I wish to put on 4.33 pm record my thanks to Bolton against the bedroom tax, Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): My second which initiated a postcard campaign that has now been petition states: expanded to a paper petition. The Petition of residents of Peterborough, The petition states: Declares that Network Rail have upgraded the continuous The Petition of residents of the Bolton West constituency, railway line adjacent to Peakirk; further that Network Rail estimate Declares that the bedroom tax (otherwise known as the spare that there will be substantial increases in freight traffic through room subsidy) punishes the most vulnerable people in society; the village of up to 23,360 additional trains per year; further that further that many of those affected by the bedroom tax will need no mitigating measures have been offered to reduce the significant to downsize but there are not enough properties available for increases in noise, vibration and pollution created by the increase them to do so; further that in Bolton, there are only 13 available in freight traffic; and further that a local petition on this matter properties and 3,000 affected households; further that because was signed by 170 residents of Peakirk. The Petitioners therefore many of those affected cannot downsize, it is simply a tax on request that the House of Commons urges the Government to households which are already struggling; further that seventy per enter into discussion with Network Rail to discuss and agree cent of those affected are disabled; further that the revenue raised plans to introduce noise mitigation measures such as the erection by this tax is a drop in the ocean compared to the money lost of acoustic timber fencing and plans to fit secondary glazing through tax evasion and avoidance; further that those affected and/or acoustic trickle vents where required for properties adjacent cannot afford to wait for a change of government; further that to the train line which runs adjacent to Peakirk; further request lives are being ruined because parents are being ejected from the that the House urges the Government to encourage Network Rail family home; and further that a postcard campaign in the Bolton to put in place plans to plant an evergreen tree belt to help absorb West constituency on this issue resulted in 150 postcards being particulates emitted by diesel locomotives; and further request sent to the Member of Parliament for Bolton West. The Petitioners that the House urges the Government to ask Peterborough City therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government Council to consider a reduction in council tax for those properties to revoke the bedroom tax. which will be directly affected by increases in freight traffic through Peakirk. And the Petitioners remain, etc. And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P001406] [P001409] 841 9 DECEMBER 2014 Patient Safety and Medical 842 Innovation Patient Safety and Medical Innovation “But we state that if you have terminal stage 4…cancer, have not had chemotherapy, and you do the” Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House so-called do now adjourn.—(Harriett Baldwin.) “GcMAF protocol, you have an 80% chance of being cancer free in a year.” 4.34 pm In other words, what the company is specifically saying to people is that they can look forward to that result if Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Like books, one they do not have chemotherapy—it is actively encouraging should never judge a Bill by its cover. Later this week, people not to have evidence-based treatment and promising the Medical Innovation Bill reaches Report stage in the that it has a cure for cancer. House of Lords, but I would like to demonstrate that it is fundamentally flawed in its premise, it is unnecessary, Mr Noakes says that it removes essential protections for patients, and it “The pharmaceutical industry is not interested in” increases the risks of their exposure to maverick doctors. this treatment, because there is no profit in it— I believe it will undermine not only patients’ safety but “it is too cheap, and can’t be patented”. medical innovation and so will have precisely the opposite He says: effect to that intended. “The chemo lobby is so powerful it has changed British law so Under current law, a doctor is negligent if he or she that doctors are only allowed to prescribe the poison of chemo acts in a way which no responsible body of medical for cancer when there are…better treatments.” opinion would support, or which is irrational or illogical— He adds, specifically: the so-called Bolam test, as refined in the case of “Lord Maurice Saatchi is trying to get that law changed with Bolitho. The Bill would rewrite the law on clinical his Medical Innovation bill, but against so powerful a lobby”— negligence and a doctor whose decision to treat would and so on. In other words, for this individual and the not be supported by any responsible body of medical seven doctors to whom he refers, the Bill would be carte opinion, or was illogical or irrational, would be able to blanche. They see it as a Bill that would provide them call on a new Saatchi defence if they fulfilled the with protections. The Bill specifically refers to medical procedural requirements of the Bill. That is important: practitioners and doctors as the people who can take the Bill’s protection of doctors applies if the procedural this forward—not homeopaths or unregistered doctors. requirements are met. The Bill states: He says that he has seven doctors in his company. If one “For the purposes of taking a responsible decision to depart of those seven consulted another doctor in the clinic, it from the existing range of accepted medical treatments for a is highly likely that they would agree that this was an condition, the doctor must…obtain the views of one or more eminently sensible treatment. appropriately qualified doctors in relation to the proposed treatment”. There is no requirement for the second doctor to have Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I thank my seen the patient or even read their notes, and no requirement hon. Friend for giving way and for securing this debate for them to be independent. They could be working at on an important subject. It is a shame that more people the same private clinic. It is of little reassurance that the are not in the Chamber to discuss it. There are some treating doctor must very real concerns. Does she agree that people who are “take full account of the views” terminally ill may be desperate for treatment, and that simply makes them prey to people who may be unethical, of the second doctor if the second doctor is in collusion who may be trying to push the envelope, and who may with the first in that treatment, which may be unreasonable. be doing things that would harm them but that sound If the Bill is passed, we will put patient safety at risk quite good? and we will no doubt have to return to amend the legislation subsequently. Let me quote from a letter Dr Wollaston: I agree with my hon. Friend. In my forwarded to me by a constituent who had met a visitor constituency a medically qualified individual attempted to my constituency who managed to convince him to set up a cancer conference. It had to be pointed out utterly that this individual’s company had found a that under the Cancer Act 1939 it is not legal to advertise cure—a miraculous treatment—for cancer, but was being cures for cancer. The Bill would allow people to circumvent obstructed by a vast conspiracy in the medical community. the Cancer Act. How easy is it to get a reference to a In the letter, David Noakes, who describes himself as miracle treatment planted into a magazine article, for the chief executive of a biotechnology company, refers example? This is the real danger here. While the Cancer to a compound he calls GcMAF, which he describes as Act protects people against blatant advertising, it does “a human protein, present in 5 billion healthy people, that removes not provide protection against the back-door advertising a number of diseases, including terminal stage 4 cancer. It has no that we already see. What is to stop individuals who are side effects.” absolutely desperate—as my hon. Friend has said—going He attaches a couple of scientific-y looking papers, to doctors with articles saying, “This is a cure. I want which have no bearing on proving its clinical effectiveness. you to refer me to this clinic.” Mr Noakes continues: Dr Huppert: I will try to resist the temptation to “It’s always difficult to get feedback, but we have hundreds of intervene too often. Does she agree that this is not just superb results. In Guernsey, we treat over 100 people and…have about cancer? We have already had homeopathic doctors, 50 successes including 10 excellent cancer results. We have perfect feedback in our German and Swiss clinics, where our 7 doctors who may practise medicine as well as homeopathy, reduce tumours at the rate of 25% a week”. claiming that they have powerful treatments for Ebola that the World Health Organisation will not let them He says that he cannot do it in the UK work on. The Bill would open the door for all sorts of “because the law is so destructive.” quacks who will do serious harm in the name of medical Here is the bit that really worries me. Mr Noakes states: innovation. 843 Patient Safety and Medical 9 DECEMBER 2014 Patient Safety and Medical 844 Innovation Innovation Dr Wollaston: I agree. I thank my hon. Friend for doing a grave disservice to medical innovation, and it making the point that this is not just about cancer will be to our great shame to have done so. I would like treatment but about a wide range of surgical treatments the Minister to address that point when he responds. and therapies for any number of conditions. That is a fundamental flaw in the Bill. There is also a fundamental flaw in the premise that separate anecdotal If the Bill is about reducing medical litigation so that treatments can progress medical research. Interestingly, doctors are free to undertake innovative treatments, clause 1(5) states: why do those who are involved in medical litigation say that there is no need for it? The Medical Defence “Nothing in this section permits a doctor to carry out treatment for the purposes of research”. Union, the Medical Protection Society, even the NHS Litigation Authority, are clear that the law, with the In other words, it specifically precludes the treatments Bolam and Bolitho tests, is well established. They feel being linked in any way, so we will learn nothing from that the Bill could increase uncertainty. The MPS briefing these treatments. Lord Saatchi’s premise is that his Bill says: will advance medical knowledge, but there is no evidence that it will advance medical knowledge an inch because “Fundamentally, current law allows doctors acting responsibly we will not be able to answer that fundamental question to innovate, and this Bill is unnecessary. The time has come for about whether there are unintended harms from the the debate to shift towards improving education about the present treatments or any long-term benefits. law, rather than confusing the law through a new piece of legislation.” Where will the evidence be of benefit from those That is another point that is worth bearing in mind. “innovative treatments”? Will the Minister look carefully at that, and be clear in responding? The list of bodies Far from promoting medical innovation, the Bill opposed to the Medical Innovation Bill is very long—the could undermine recruitment to genuine clinical trials. Academy for Healthcare Science, the Academy of Medical If someone had been persuaded by the likes of the Royal Colleges, the Academy of Medical Sciences, the doctors in the letter that I read out that there was a Medical Research Council, the Wellcome Trust, Action miraculous treatment for their terminal cancer, why Against Medical Accidents, the Association of Medical would they wish to be enrolled in a clinical trial and be Research Charities, the Association of Personal Injury part of a randomised trial? If they could circumvent Lawyers, the British Medical Association, the British that and go along to a private clinic, why would they do Pharmacological Society, Cancer Research UK, the that? Medical research does not just answer the question Good Thinking Society, Healthwatch, the Medical about whether a treatment works; it also helps answer Protection Society, the Medical Defence Union, the the question whether a therapy or procedure has serious Motor Neurone Disease Association, the National Institute side effects. The history of medicine is littered with for Health and Care Excellence, the NHS Health Research good intentions and innovations that seemed like a Authority and the NHS Litigation Authority. good idea but turned out to have disastrous side effects. Richard Francis QC, one of our most respected national authorities on patient safety, opposes the legislation. I think, for example, of the use of 100% oxygen for I think that we ought to reflect carefully on his words: premature babies, which led to blindness, or the use of steroids after head injury, which might have seemed like “If there is misunderstanding then it should be corrected by guidance, not by legislation which exposes vulnerable patients to a good idea at the time but led to many, many deaths unjustified risk and deprives them of remedies when mistreated until it was realised that it was a dangerous innovation. by those who have no acceptable justification for what they have There is an assumption that all innovation must be done.” good innovation, but much innovation can be dangerous. Those are very serious words indeed. The legislation is The randomised double-blind trial has been one of also opposed by the Royal College of General Practitioners, the greatest advances in medical science and has provided the Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of enormous protection for people. I look back at my time Psychiatrists and the Royal College of Radiologists. in medicine. Fairly soon after I qualified in 1986, I was a That is an important list. junior doctor on the Hedley Atkins breast unit. The There is a powerful lobby in favour of this legislation newly appointed consultant is now Professor Sir Mike that purports that those who oppose it are somehow Richards, who is one of the country’s foremost and dinosaurs. respected experts in cancer, formerly the cancer czar. He I urge the Minister to read the letter from 100 leading does not think the Bill will protect patients. We need to oncologists that was published in The Times on listen to the opinion of those who have serious concerns 13 November, which states: about such Bills. When I was working on that cancer “We devote our professional lives to treating patients with unit in the 1980s, very many of the patients who did not cancer and advancing research that contributes to finding more survive at the time would survive today going to the effective treatments for cancer. We neither want nor need Lord same unit with similar conditions. That is because we Saatchi’s bill. We do not believe that it will help our patients or now know what the best treatments are. We know that future patients. We are dismayed that the bill is being promoted as offering hope to patients and their families when it will not make not from a series of unlinked anecdotal treatments, but any meaningful difference to progress in treating cancer. because of former patients who were enrolled in clinical The law of medical negligence does not hinder our work or trials. prevent innovation. There have been significant advances across all the modalities of cancer treatment over recent decades. There The accusation sometimes made is, “Aren’t clinical was no call for this change in the law from the medical profession. trials just experimenting on people?” Far from it. There The current law already allows us to use off label drugs and to try seems to be a benefit for everyone taking part in a new treatments when they are in patients’ best interests. clinical trial, even those who are not receiving a treatment We are concerned that rather than promoting responsible that turns out to be more effective. If the Bill is passed scientific innovation in the treatment of cancer, the Medical and undermines enrolment in clinical trials, we will be Innovation Bill will actually encourage irresponsible experimentation 845 Patient Safety and Medical 9 DECEMBER 2014 Patient Safety and Medical 846 Innovation Innovation producing nothing more than anecdotal ‘evidence’, at the potential pick people out from a large enough pool, we will expense of causing serious harm and suffering to patients, their always find strange things that we can write about or families and carers. Innovation is best carried out within the make a lot of money from by setting up a company, if discipline of controlled clinical trials, not by individual doctors we are allowed to go ahead. acting on a whim.” I think that sums it up well. We have to avoid dealing merely with anecdote, because that will lead to people getting substantially sub-optimal Were we to title the Bill correctly, it would be called treatments. The safeguards in the Bill—I have been the medical anecdote Bill. We should be saying that it through all the proposed amendments as well—are very makes provision in relation to anecdotal treatments in thin. As my hon. Friend said, asking another doctor medical treatment. If we titled it correctly, there would makes little difference when that doctor could be somebody be no question whatsoever of its having Government else who believes in the same slightly bizarre theory. support. I urge the Minister in the strongest terms Moreover, the doctor could be asking another doctor please not to give the Bill Government backing. To do who works for them, because there is quite a hierarchy so, I think, would be to our great shame. We would in medicine. A junior doctor would not feel able to undoubtedly have to return to amend it. It would put challenge a more senior doctor on something like this. patients at risk, and it would put recruitment to clinical trials and genuine innovation at risk. This Bill tries to solve a problem that does not seem to exist, according to the doctors and lawyers involved. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response and It puts patients at risk, especially if these innovative about the many good things the Government have done treatments replace standard treatments that are known to promote genuine innovation. I will not detain the to be effective. It opens the door to quacks of all House by offering that list now, because I know the persuasion who want to try out their pet theories but Minister has done more than anyone I can think of in have no proper background and no evidence. the House to promote true medical innovation. I therefore hope he will recognise that the Bill would do quite the I hope that on Friday, their lordships will see the opposite, and ensure that it does not progress. problems with the Bill and that they will not proceed with it and bring it to this place. I sincerely hope that 4.53 pm the Minister, whom I respect for his efforts to improve innovation and his understanding of the role of an Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a great evidence base, will make sure that we do not have pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Government backing for such a Bill. If it does make it Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and the excellent comments she here as a private Member’s Bill, I am confident that this made, although she should keep an eye on her House will make the right choice to protect patient Committee—I am sure she will—which I believe is safety. currently questioning on the subjects of complementary medicine and homeopathic doctors in her absence. It is also good to have the Minister here. Between the three 4.57 pm of us, we have a commitment to the idea of evidence-based medicine, which sadly not all Members of the House The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, appear to share. I hope we are all singing from the same Innovation and Skills (George Freeman): I thank my hymn sheet in that regard, as my hon. Friend has hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) for already set out so eloquently. securing this Adjournment debate and giving the House, Suffering from terminal cancer, or any other serious albeit only a few of us, the chance to debate what is, I condition, is clearly awful for anyone, so I understand agree, a very important issue that is the subject of live why people would want to try something in the desperate discussion in another place. I also thank my hon. Friend hope that it might alleviate the problem and help them the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) for his comments. to survive. I absolutely understand that rationale. However, My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes is a tireless it does have real risks, and that is part of the problem campaigner for good health care and good medicine, as with the Bill. Member of Parliament for Totnes, as a member of the Of course we should innovate. We come up with new medical profession, and as Chair of the Health Committee. techniques all the time. As my hon. Friend said, we are I very much welcome her contribution. I will first deal far better at treating things now than we have been over with the points that she made, then set the scene and time. However, we must avoid using the politician’s provide a little context about the Government’s view of syllogism: we must do something; this is something; this Bill, and then close with what I hope may be some therefore, we must do this. That is not how it works, but reassurance about our commitment to patient safety. unfortunately it seems to be the approach taken in the My hon. Friend made a number of important points, Bill. which I repeat merely to signal that I have heard them As we have heard, there does not seem to be a serious loud and clear. She said that the Bill might risk creating problem of stultification and lack of innovation. Oncologist a carte blanche, or open door, situation as an inadvertent after oncologist will say how they are able to innovate. side effect of unjustified and unsubstantiated claims. However, there is a system of research ethics regarding My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge mentioned how we decide what is acceptable and what is not. There homeopathy and other non-evidence-based forms of are ways of making sure that we do not just look at medicine. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes things with a selective bias. The paper that my hon. highlighted the danger of relying too heavily on the Friend mentioned described two patients who had had protection of a clinician merely seeking the endorsement some reductions in tumour sizes, but it said nothing of a fellow clinician. Implicit in her concern is the fact about how many patients had been looked at, or about that most of us could probably find one person in life to the outcomes for those who had not been treated. If we support our own prejudices, however well intentioned. 847 Patient Safety and Medical 9 DECEMBER 2014 Patient Safety and Medical 848 Innovation Innovation [George Freeman] have repeated the concerns because they bear repetition and are important, and I want to signal that I am taking My hon. Friend highlighted the risk of unethical them seriously. approaches and the danger of back-door promotions, I want to set the scene in terms of the Government’s which none of us wants to see. On the danger of commitment to patient safety, the context in which undermining public and patient trust in clinical trials, innovative medicines are being developed, and the changes she knows that I am passionate about achieving precisely in the sector that are challenging some of the traditional the opposite. We are very proud in this country that methods of drug development. I will then address some more and more of our patients are enrolling in clinical of the specific points that my hon. Friends the Members trials. The NHS is running a fabulously successful for Totnes and for Cambridge have made and say programme of promoting research medicine, and this something about the Government’s position on the Bill. year the numbers are up by 24% or 25%. That is good for patients, good for NHS research, and good for our The Government’s response to the Mid Staffordshire life sciences sector. NHS Foundation Trust public inquiry, led by Sir Robert Francis, “Hard Truths: The Journey to Putting Patients My hon. Friend has highlighted the danger of accidental First”, demonstrated beyond any doubt, I hope, the errors across the system today. We live with that risk, Government’s absolute commitment to creating a new but I hear her point that it would be a disaster if the Bill culture of openness, compassion and accountability inadvertently made errors more likely, rather than less. and a renewed focus on patient safety right at the heart She also raised concerns about the Bill not promoting of the NHS. evidence-based medicine or requiring claims to be based on clear patient benefit. She made a specific point about The truth is that the NHS is one of the safest health the Cancer Act 1939, which I will follow up and deal care systems in the world. I am delighted to report that, with by letter, if I may. in the recent Commonwealth Fund report comparing Most concerning of all, my hon. Friend ran through the US health care system with those of 11 other a very long list of medical and health organisations that nations, the UK came top. However, there is always she described as being opposed to the Bill. I will look scope to improve health care standards universally and into that following the debate because—I will say more to reduce avoidable harm further. That is why the about this in a moment—we do not want the measure Secretary of State set the ambition this June, at the to be divisive or to alienate or undermine the consensus launch of the Sign up to Safety campaign, to reduce about the importance of good medical research in the avoidable harm by half and save 6,000 lives over the UK and the NHS. I take that point seriously. My hon. next three years. Friend flagged up the letter from 100 oncologists that We have put patient safety right at the heart of the appeared in newspapers recently. Since that was published, Government’s agenda for health. For that reason, I am there have been a number of discussions about—and, delighted that the Government are actively supporting indeed, amendments tabled to—the Bill in the Lords. I the Bill on patient safety sponsored by my hon. Friend want to have a look and make sure which, if any, of the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy). The Bill has those concerns are extant as the Bill completes its several important provisions on the use of data to drive passage through the Lords. I will say more about that in safety across the system and to ensure transparency and a moment. accountability in health outcomes. My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge endorsed Why do we need to look at mechanisms for promoting those comments. I note in particular his comments innovation? My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes about the importance of evidence-based medicine. As was kind enough to signal her awareness that the with so many issues that we deal with in this House, a Government—particularly me, as the first Minister for good test is to ask: would I apply this to myself? life sciences—have taken an active role in trying to Certainly, for myself and my family, I am a strong promote it. The reason is that we face a challenge in the believer in evidence-based medicine. I am a believer in field of drug discovery and development, as well as in innovation as well, but my hon. Friend made an important medical technology generally. There is a challenge and point. I particularly enjoyed his mention of the politician’s an opportunity. syllogism: “We must do something; this is something; The challenge is that the more we know about disease, ergo, we should do it.” I assure him that that is not in genetics and data—the datasets at our disposal in the any way the reason for the Government’s benign support NHS, and the history of drug reactions and the way in for the Bill’s principles and the case it seeks to make to which patients respond to diseases differently—the more promote innovation. I align myself hugely with his we realise that patients respond to the same disease or comments about not wanting to open the door for the same drug in different ways, and that those ways can quackery. often be predicted. These insights are beginning to change the way in which drugs are developed. Dr Wollaston: Lord Saatchi has said that 20,000 people support his Bill, but if people are asked whether they Increasingly, we do not need the one-size-fits-all, are in favour of medical innovation, they are likely to blockbuster drugs that we have traditionally expected answer yes, and if the same people are asked whether the industry to bring us after long, slow, protracted and they are likely to support medical anecdotes, I think increasingly expensive clinical trials and randomised, they are likely to say no. Sometimes the answer depends double-blind trials. Of course, those trials have a strong on the question being asked. part to play in our system, but the more we know about the nature of disease and the extraordinary breakthroughs George Freeman: I am sure my hon. Friend is right. that our biomedical and life sciences sector is making, She makes an excellent point about the nature of the the more the agenda shifts to designing around patients, question having an impact on the answer one gets. I as well as around tissues, data and genomics. That is 849 Patient Safety and Medical 9 DECEMBER 2014 Patient Safety and Medical 850 Innovation Innovation why the Government are so committed to shifting our George Freeman: I will happily come on to the existing policy landscape to support the extraordinary role that law and the protections within it. our NHS can play globally. It is a uniquely well positioned, Three weeks ago, I announced a major review of the integrated national health care system, with extraordinary landscape of innovative medicines development, which leadership in genomics and informatics, which the will involve a review of NICE and the Medicines and Government are actively supporting. Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency. It will look My hon. Friend made the point that the randomised, closely at how we can develop a new landscape for the double-blind trial has given medicine great service in quicker development of innovation with patients in the 20th century, and I agree. As we move further into the NHS. the 21st century and see the transformational power of I reassure the House that the Government are committed new technologies, it is equally true that the system in all this work to putting patient safety first and of expecting the industry to go away and spend 10 to developing a landscape of evidence-based medicine. I 15 years, and an average of £1.5 billion, to develop a have listened carefully to the concerns of my hon. new drug—many of them fail in late-stage clinical trials, Friends the Members for Totnes and for Cambridge. I because of some toxic side effect in one patient or a few reassure them that I and the Government take their small number of patients—is leading to a crisis in the concerns very seriously. industry and in the pipeline for new drugs and new Lord Saatchi has identified the threat of litigation as treatments, and to patients increasingly suffering because a potential barrier to innovation. The purpose of his we cannot give them innovative medicines. Bill is to set out a series of steps and a clearer legal Part of the agenda for this Government and all framework that will make it less likely for doctors to be western Governments is to look at how to accelerate the put off reasonable innovation because of the rather way in which our health systems support research and circular defence that the best treatment is one that is to bring innovative medicines, as well as devices, diagnostics already well established. The intention of the Bill is to and other innovations, to benefit patients more quickly. tackle the risk that the fear of clinical negligence could undermine the commitment of doctors to embracing Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I apologise for not innovation in the system. It does not claim to be a being in the Chamber at the beginning of the debate, panacea or silver bullet to solve all our innovation Madam Deputy Speaker, but I did not realise that the challenges, but to be one measure in the broader landscape. business had moved on so fast. In the university in In Committee in the House of Lords, the Government Belfast, we have developed some great partnerships in supported Lord Saatchi’s amendments to the Bill, which relation to finding new drugs. Nearby Belfast city hospital added an objective test of responsibility to the doctor’s works together in partnership with the university to decision to innovate. The amendments exclude any doctors address the issue of innovation for new drugs and to who act irresponsibly from enjoying the protections of address how best to utilise them and make them available. the Bill. I know that the Minister is aware of that, but does he The amended Bill provides a number of other safeguards recognise that such a partnership—with Queen’s university, for patients, including the requirement for doctors to financed by big business, alongside the NHS in the form take full account, in a responsible way, of the views of of Belfast city hospital—is a precedent for how to other appropriately qualified clinicians. My hon. Friend innovate? the Member for Totnes argues that that does not go far enough. I would be interested to hear the views of George Freeman: The hon. Gentleman makes an Members of the upper House who are more qualified important point. I want to take this opportunity to pay than I am when they debate Third reading at the end of tribute to the work being done in that cluster at Queen’s. the week. The package of amendments is intended to I am delighted to say that I will be coming in the new ensure that there is expert peer review of any doctor’s year to support it and to show, as the UK Minister, that proposal. Furthermore, it ensures that the doctor must there are great clusters in Scotland, Northern Ireland act responsibly in taking account of that review, thereby and Wales. I very much look forward to that visit. applying an objective standard to their conduct. In addition, the Bill requires any doctor to consider the The truth is that the landscape is changing. Part of risks and benefits associated with the proposed treatment, the challenge that we all face is to find ways to accelerate alternative treatments and doing nothing. That provides earlier access to innovative treatments for patients, and a further safeguard. earlier access for those developing innovative drugs, devices and diagnostics to our health system, so that we Let me be clear that we do not want the Bill to can more quickly design innovations that are more prevent patients from taking doctors to court when targeted and personalised. We are seeing the first genuinely there is a good reason to do so. Doctors who follow the personalised cancer therapies and drugs that, in the steps set out in the Bill or the steps required in normal unfortunate event that one is diagnosed with cancer, practice should be able to demonstrate more easily that can be designed around one’s genetic profile. I was at a they have acted responsibility, because they will have seminar on that development this morning. It is changing considered the necessary steps in advance of any innovation. the landscape of drug development. We are keen to However, by invoking the freedom to innovate that is ensure that we benefit from it in the UK and that we use set out in the Bill, one does not in any way avoid the every mechanism in the NHS to support it. scrutiny of the courts. Doctors will still have to justify their actions if any case is brought against them, just as they do now. Dr Wollaston: Does the Minister accept that a doctor who uses such innovative treatments within the NHS is Dr Huppert: At the beginning of the Minister’s comments, protected under existing law and that we do not need he said that he and the Government were keen to ensure new legislation to make them available to patients? that this would not be a divisive issue, and that they 851 Patient Safety and Medical 9 DECEMBER 2014 Patient Safety and Medical 852 Innovation Innovation [Dr Huppert] is about ensuring that we use all of our £1 billion a year for the National Institute for Health Research infrastructure would not progress with it if it became one. He now in the NHS, to ensure—as the Prime Minister set out in sounds like he is being very supportive of the Bill. Will his speech when launching our life science strategy—that he provide an assurance that if the Bill continues to every willing patient is a research patient and every have the vast weight of medical and legal expertise hospital a research hospital, and that we learn from against it, whether that is expressed in the House of evidence that we develop daily in our interaction with Lords or by the organisations that my hon. Friend the patients. Lord Saatchi and Ministers are determined Member for Totnes mentioned, he will ensure that the that doctors should learn from innovative medicine as Government do not back it? we go along, and a large part of the NIHR and our data programme is about ensuring that we pick up and track George Freeman: I am merely trying to set out a innovations and outcomes more accurately across the balanced review of the arguments. In closing my speech, system. I will give an assurance that I hope will satisfy my hon. Friend on that point. Dr Wollaston: Does the Minister accept that that On protection, under existing common law and in the cannot happen under the Bill, and that those things will Bill doctors must show that they have acted responsibly. remain a series of unlinking anecdotes? In medical They cannot simply go through the motions and seek science and for the safety of patients no one will be able advice from an inappropriate source as that would not to track whether there were unintended consequences be “responsible”, which is the key test in the Bill and or benefits, and it will not advance the cause of medical common law. Even if doctors follow the steps in the Bill innovation whatsoever. when deciding to adopt an innovative treatment, they might still carry it out negligently and be subject to a George Freeman: I would be interested to see the Bill negligence claim in the same way. When something goes once it has completed its passage through another place wrong it is right that patients are free to seek compensation, and ensure that it contains adequate provision for evidence- and that will continue to be the case. The Government based medicine, and that, by encouraging innovation, do not want any undermining of protection for patients we are not in any way encouraging medicine that is not against clinical negligence. supported by the best evidence available. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes made a point My hon. Friend spoke about consultation. The about the Bill not requiring doctors to seek the prior Department of Health carried out a full consultation agreement of an appropriately qualified doctor, and on the issues raised in the Bill, which ran from February instead being required only to take account of their to April this year. It was delighted to receive 170 responses views. I would not want the Bill to give a carte blanche to that consultation, making clear a range of opinions. to quackery or non-evidence based medicine. The Bill Responses came from a range of audiences, professional requires a doctor to take full account of the views of at bodies, patients and clinicians. Four regional public least one appropriately qualified doctor, just as any consultation events were also held. Lord Saatchi attended responsible doctor would be expected to do, and they those events and it was in no small part thanks to his would not be able to ignore certain views or give them involvement that a number of changes were made to minimal weight by just “noting” them unless there were strengthen the oversight mechanisms in the Bill. At reasonable grounds for doing so. All doctors will be every stage, the Department of Health has engaged bound by the core and primary duty of responsibility with Lord Saatchi to develop amendments to align the and care to their patients. If the Bill were to require the policy of the Bill with the legal and expert clinical explicit agreement of another doctor to innovate—that advice we have taken, including from Sir Bruce Keogh. is one suggestion made in the other place—we are worried that that would open the possibility of a new Dr Huppert: The Minister is being very generous, negligence action against the countersigning doctor and although we do appear to have quite a lot of time. He lead to more confusion. We would not be able to give talked about 170 responses. How many were supportive the countersigning doctor any certainty about their of the Bill and how many were not? legal position, and they would not be able to rely on provisions in the Bill. George Freeman: I do not have that information at My hon. Friend made a point about undermining my fingertips, but I will happily look into it and come confidence in clinical trials. Although the Bill has raised back to my hon. Friend if I may. awareness of innovation in medical treatment, it does Crucially, following the Committee stage, Lord Saatchi not confer additional rights on patients to demand and the Government have continued to engage with innovative treatment. It will still be for the doctor to peers and key stakeholders. Let me take this opportunity, decide the most appropriate course of treatment in on the question of the Government’s support, to reiterate discussion with their patient and using their best professional that this is a private Member’s Bill. This is not a clinical judgment. Nothing in the Bill allows doctors to Government Bill. We are very supportive of the Bill’s bypass any processes or requirements set by their trust aims and intent to promote a culture and regulatory when undertaking innovative treatments in the NHS, framework that is supportive of innovation within the which includes ensuring that the commissioner would NHS, but it is equally important that we do not in any fund the treatment if it is to be provided within the way damage or undermine public or patient confidence service. in research in this country and in the NHS. I stress that Individual innovation is important but no substitute the Bill has not been given Government time. We are for medical research and testing the efficacy of new supportive of its principles, but it is very important that treatments in a systematic way. A large part of my work when it leaves the House of Lords, where it will have 853 Patient Safety and Medical 9 DECEMBER 2014 Patient Safety and Medical 854 Innovation Innovation been subject to extensive scrutiny by very eminent medical Sir Bruce Keogh, at NHS England, said: and legal opinion, it comes to us in a format, even if not “Encouraging innovation in medicine and protecting patients every single point is unanimously supported, that has are both of vital importance. That is why I am pleased that the very strong support of our most senior lawyers and amendments have been devised to address concerns about patient medics. safety.” Sir Michael Rawlins, president of the Royal Society of I want to close by highlighting the fact that the Bill Medicine, said that the Bill will allow responsible innovation has generated substantial interest, both in Parliament and treatment: and outside. In many ways, if those concerns can be reflected in high-quality scrutiny and the tabling of “I believe the use of the provisions in the draft Medical Innovation Bill will benefit patients, especially those with rarer amendments, we should be able to demonstrate that diseases, and the furtherance of medical science.” democracy works and end up with a Bill that both A letter to The Telegraph from 40 leading medical achieves the aims of Lord Saatchi and reassures those professionals, including David Walker, professor of with concerns. I want to be clear that, as the Bill paediatric oncology at Nottingham university and Riccardo completes its passage in the House of Lords, I hope it Audisio, the president of the Association of Cancer returns to this House in a form that the vast majority of Surgery, said the Bill medical opinion and respectable bodies in the medical field feel able to support. It is not our intention to have “legally protects doctors who try out innovative new techniques or drugs on patients when all else has failed. This Bill will protect a Bill that undermines public or patient trust in research the patient and nurture the innovator. It will encourage safe medicine. medical advancement, while at the same time deterring the maverick, We cannot legislate for best practice; we can only thereby recalibrating the culture of defensive medicine. Finally, it legislate to support our front-line clinicians to do what will work with evidence-based medicine and provide new data they believe is best for their patients. At the heart of that will inspire and support new research.” that is a sacrosanct duty of care that all clinicians share, I hope very much that that is the case and that when the and which the Bill does not in any way weaken or Bill leaves the House of Lords, the vast majority of undermine. That duty is to do what is best for patients. qualified senior opinion in this field is able to agree with it. It is absolutely our intention to support the Bill’s I want to close with some supportive quotes the Bill noble intent to promote medical innovation, but equally has received from a number of important people, lest our intention is to not undermine in any way the the House should form the view that it is unanimously Government’s commitment to patient safety or the duty opposed, which is not the case. Dame Sally Davies, the of care that all clinicians share and owe to their patients. chief medical officer, has said: Question put and agreed to. “I am confident that, with the amendments made in Committee stage, the Bill is safe for patients and has the potential to encourage 5.24 pm responsible innovation.” House adjourned.

227WH 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 228WH Cerebral Palsy is during those crucial early years that the ability to Westminster Hall learn develops. Children with cerebral palsy are hindered to varying degrees during that process as they battle Tuesday 9 December 2014 to learn fundamental skills related to their symptoms. Therefore, cerebral palsy should to a significant extent be considered as a problem of learning, rather than a [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] problem of functioning or communicating. Early identification of cerebral palsy and early BACKBENCH BUSINESS intervention can help tackle problems of movement, posture and co-ordination. Between the ages of nought Education of Children with Cerebral Palsy and two, a child has a high degree of neural plasticity, which can be harnessed with appropriate programmes Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting in order to remap the neural pathways between brain be now adjourned.—(Gavin Barwell.) and muscle, enabling children to overcome problems of movement, posture and communication. 9.30 am I have seen for myself the huge progress that children Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): I thank my hon. have made at the Rainbow Centre through early Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys intervention. Children whose parents were told that (Paul Maynard) for securing this debate and generously they would not walk now can; children said to have high asking me to open it. My first event as a Member of degrees of dependency are now independent. Everyone Parliament was a fundraising evening for the Rainbow who has been to the Rainbow Centre or similar centres Centre, a charity set up by parents to enable their around the country comes away moved by the sight of children with cerebral palsy to benefit from conductive children, parents and educators working together through education, a therapy pioneered at the Peto Institute in an educational programme that helps children improve Hungary. At that point, the Rainbow Centre was above their motor skills and rebuild those neural pathways. a carpet shop in the centre of Fareham; they were not We can make adaptations to accommodate the physical the most salubrious premises, but it demonstrated the symptoms of cerebral palsy—for example, we can provide parents’ commitment. They were prepared to go there ramps for wheelchairs—but it is so much more powerful during the week and on weekends, often carrying their and rewarding to work with children to rebuild their children upstairs so that they could benefit from the neural pathways so that those ramps are not needed. education provided there. Children came from as far afield as Hampshire, Sussex, Dorset, Wiltshire and the There were several recurring themes in the inquiry, Isle of Wight. including problems with early identification. Also, once CP has been identified, parents are more likely to have Now the Rainbow Centre is in a purpose-built building to fight to get the right support for their children than in Fareham, and can offer support to more parents and to find it easy to obtain. There is poor signposting to their children. It also uses the techniques of conductive centres offering appropriate programmes, a reluctance education to help adults with multiple sclerosis and among some local authorities—including Hampshire Parkinson’s disease and those who have had strokes. My county council—to support the work of specialist providers, engagement with the Rainbow Centre led me to become and reduced access to specialist services as children get involved in a parliamentary inquiry supported by Action older. In many respects, those issues are not unique Cerebral Palsy, an umbrella organisation for charities to cerebral palsy, and I commend the Government for across the country supporting children with cerebral their reforms relating to special educational needs and palsy. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North disability. and Cleveleys led the inquiry, and a final report will be published next month. Those giving evidence in our inquiry warmly welcomed I will say a little about cerebral palsy to set the the intentions behind the Government’s reforms, which context for my later remarks. It is a motor disorder are widely believed to have the potential—I emphasise caused by damage to the immature or developing brain the word “potential”—to transform the lives of people that occurs before, during or immediately after birth. In with cerebral palsy. The introduction of education, the UK, 1,800 children a year, or about one in 400 born, health and care plans, which will provide statutory develop cerebral palsy. The condition can affect those protection, comparable to that provided by statements from all social backgrounds and ethnic groups. At some of special educational needs, to young people who are point very early in life, either while a baby is growing in in education or training up to the age of 25—as compared the womb, during birth or shortly afterward, something with 16 now—was seen as a particularly encouraging happens to interfere with the normal development of development by respondents to the inquiry. If services the brain or to injure the brain tissues. That abnormal for children and young people with cerebral palsy are to development or injury disrupts the nerve signals sent complement each other, the plans should facilitate that along neural pathways between the brain and the by ensuring that services are jointly commissioned and muscles, leading to problems with movement, posture provision is decided in dialogue with parents. and co-ordination as the child develops. This is called The stipulation that provision in plans is set on the cerebral palsy. basis of the expected outcomes for the child or young As cerebral palsy is a condition of very early childhood, person, as agreed between professionals and parents, the implications for the developing child cannot be has been welcomed. It is believed that if the measures ignored. During the formative years, the central nervous are followed through on, they should create the promised system develops rapidly, enabling the child to learn, cultural shift that will lead to assessments for special explore and connect with their social environment. It educational provision being based on a continuing 229WH Education of Children with 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 230WH Cerebral Palsy Cerebral Palsy [Mr Mark Hoban] scepticism from professionals about forms of support that parents often say have transformed their children’s assessment of a child’s needs and expected progress, lives. rather than being simply a fight over short-term solutions There is a need for an awareness-raising exercise, so to long-term issues. that if cerebral palsy is diagnosed, parents are made aware by professionals of the options available to them I want to emphasise some particular concerns of immediately, rather than having to search for those parents and other participants in the inquiry. The first options themselves. In addition, parents who spoke to regards the local offer, which is hugely important because the inquiry said that all too often they themselves were of its potential to give families access to specialist the experts on cerebral palsy, and the professionals they cerebral palsy services offered by third-sector organisations. encountered not only provided little help but acted as However, the challenge is what will be included in the obstacles to parents and their children, preventing them local offer. Let me illustrate that challenge with reference from accessing the best help available. to the Rainbow Centre. The centre has applied to be included in the offer for Hampshire, Portsmouth and There is a particular concern about early intervention Southampton, but councils in other areas served by the and about whether the reforms will do enough to help. centre, such as Wiltshire and Dorset, have said that they The inquiry shows why more needs to be done to will only include the centre if there is space available. support children and young people with cerebral palsy, That means that parents of children with CP in those especially in the “golden years”—post-diagnosis, for areas will not know that the provision is available and those under the age of two—when intervention is at its will miss out on the support that the centre offers, and most effective because of the plasticity in children’s therefore on an education that could transform their brains at that age. However, this is often also the period children’s lives. Given the nature of centres dealing with when that type of intervention is most absent. CP, there will not be one in every county or unitary The inquiry found that children are not receiving the authority, so it is important that the local offer looks specialist invention they need during these golden years beyond council and area boundaries to ensure that all because there is not enough specialist educational children with CP are signposted towards the right specialist intervention available for children under the age of two services for them. and, where it does exist, health professionals and parents are too often completely unaware of it. Moreover, even The issue of the local offer speaks to a broader point when they are aware of it, local authorities’ responsibilities about the tension between tailoring services to local for assessing the needs of those under the age of two are needs and a postcode lottery that results from a lack of not spelled out very clearly in the SEND code of national consistency. I suggest to my hon. Friend the practice. That means that by the time an assessment is Minister that Ofsted, in its inspection of children’s made and support is put in place, there is a risk that the services, should examine the local offer and how opportunity to intervene in these golden years, and to comprehensive it is. Best practice guidelines should be improve significantly the early intervention services for produced for education and health professionals who children with complex needs, such as cerebral palsy, has work with children and young people with cerebral been missed. More clarity is needed in the SEND code palsy, to accompany the SEND code of practice. The of practice. It is not clear how local authorities are guidelines should explain how the lives of children with involved in the assessment of children’s needs prior to cerebral palsy can be improved within the framework of the check at the age of two. Of course, as I have said, for the new system. Although there are the best intentions many children, intervention after the age of two is of behind the reforms, parents and practitioners told the reduced effectiveness. inquiry that many years of battling with education and health authorities over support for children with cerebral I would be keen to hear from the Minister how the palsy have left them doubtful as to whether the reforms Government intend to encourage local authorities to will make a difference. target early intervention, and how health and education services will be encouraged to work together in early The negativity about the reforms’ potential is the years—for example, by ensuring that the requirement legacy of an adversarial SEND system in which parents on health professionals to advise parents on not only and practitioners have been left battle-weary and sceptical the health support available to their child but the educational that change can be achieved. There remains the fear and developmental support that they may be able to that while the reforms could slightly improve the situation access is followed through on. for children and young people with cerebral palsy, they I have discussed problems to do with the availability will not address the widespread lack of understanding and quality of care for children with cerebral palsy in of the needs of those children and young people, which their earlier years, but we should not fool ourselves into contributes to a systemic antagonism whereby parents thinking that if we tackle these problems, they will be have to fight too hard to prove what support their solved. It is clear from my conversations with parents, children need. and from feedback from centres across the country, that far too many children with cerebral palsy can be isolated Perhaps one of the biggest recurring issues that emerged when they reach secondary school. Primary schools are from the inquiry was the striking lack of awareness often well prepared. Staff are able to work with children among health and education professionals, even among who have cerebral palsy, primarily because these schools those responsible for carrying out assessments for SEN are often laid out on one floor and are therefore very statements, or for making plans about cerebral palsy accessible. Children with CP can get around such schools that establish what support children and young people without any issues, and they can take part in all the who have CP require. This results in late diagnosis, normal school activities. However, when they get to missed opportunities for early intervention and a general secondary school, they can often fall through the gap. 231WH Education of Children with 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 232WH Cerebral Palsy Cerebral Palsy By their nature, secondary schools have much larger 9.47 am buildings than primary schools, with multiple floors and large complexes. Children with CP can often struggle Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): It to get around them, leaving them isolated from their is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this morning, classmates and often from parts of the curriculum. Mr Hollobone. Children with CP have been unable to take subjects they Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Member for love because of problems with wheelchair access. Those Fareham (Mr Hoban) on his role in securing this debate problems may prevent them from taking part in courses and on an excellent speech, which teased out some of on the first floor of a building that does not offer access the issues from the inquiry very well. I also congratulate through lifts or ramps. his hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who of course has cerebral However, the problem runs much deeper than just palsy himself, and who was also instrumental in requesting physical access. Many secondary schools do not have this debate. However, due to his other responsibilities in the specialist knowledge to help children with CP to this quaint place, he now finds himself unable to take integrate, and that problem is compounded by the nature part in this debate. of CP.During their adolescent years, young people with the condition can physically regress if they are unable to As we have heard, children who have cerebral palsy, continue the programmes that help them to remap and as with many other conditions and disabilities, are often maintain their neural pathways. Ensuring proper integration reliant on early identification and intervention to ensure between schools—both primary and secondary—and that they make progress in both their physical capabilities specialist services can make a huge difference. We do and their educational progress. As I have said previously, not want the advances in independence that are made in Labour will support the Minister if he wants to work to early years to be eroded because insufficient thought persuade his colleagues at the Department of Health has gone into the primary and secondary education of a that we should make it mandatory for all children who child with CP. experience complications around the time of their birth to undergo early screening by specialist paediatricians In conclusion, I hope that I have set out where I and other experts for conditions such as cerebral palsy. believe the debate is at regarding support for children That would be a wonderful example of the children and with CP, based on my experience with the Rainbow families legislation being used to show that the Department Centre and my participation with the parliamentary of Health is fully on board. inquiry that is supported by Action Cerebral Palsy. As I said, that report will be published next month, and I As we have also heard, identification of children hope that the Minister will meet my hon. Friend the from nought to two is vital. Action Cerebral Palsy has Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys and me, as pointed out that this is the time when the brain’s well as representatives of Action Cerebral Palsy, to development is at its most active, and we are most likely discuss it and find a way ahead, so that the Government to achieve success in retraining damaged areas. It is in can help to implement its recommendations and we can this very early period that children have the greatest improve the lives of children with CP and their families. chance of learning and adapting. Without sufficient support in the period from nought to two—what the If I think back on the remarks I have made, I must hon. Member for Fareham referred to as the “golden admit that my views are perhaps coloured by my experience years”—children are unlikely to get the specialist of meeting parents of children with CP.They have often intervention they need, and that can set them back right had to fight hard to get the help their children deserve at the outset. and that can enable their children to lead more independent As the hon. Gentleman said, cerebral palsy is a broad lives than was perhaps imagined when their condition term designed to cover a range of neurological conditions was first diagnosed. These are difficult battles to fight, that affect movement and co-ordination, and it is caused so parents welcome the Government’s reforms, which largely, we believe, by damage sustained during or shortly should enable their children to get the early intervention after birth to the part of the brain responsible for they need. However, because parents are battle-hardened, controlling muscle movement. I am told that three in they are also sceptical. They want an end to the adversarial every 1,000 babies are born with cerebral palsy, making approach to educating their children; early intervention it the most common motor disability in childhood. in practice, and not just in theory; and consistency in Estimates suggest there may be around 110,000 people the local offer, so that every child with CP has access to in the UK living with the condition. specialist education, regardless of who provides it and where they live. These parents have clearly set the bar There seems to be a slightly greater likelihood of the for success, and it may be high in comparison with what condition affecting boys rather than girls, although as they have experienced, but the Government need to far as I am aware there is as yet no scientific explanation prove to them that these reforms mean that they no for this. The condition is not hereditary or genetic. longer have to fight for the right education and health Serious infections, extreme nutritional deficits in the support for children with cerebral palsy. mother’s diet or unexplained foetal complications are thought to be major factors, as we heard earlier, as is brain damage resulting from lack of oxygen during Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): As this is an foetal development or during labour and delivery. About Adjournment debate nominated by the Backbench Business one in three children with the condition are unable to Committee, we will hear from the hon. Gentleman walk; one in four are unable to feed or dress themselves; again at the close of the debate, because he is entitled three in 10 may also suffer from severe learning difficulties; to two or three minutes in which to wind up; this is one and one in four may experience epileptic seizures. However, of those occasions when the Minister will not have the life expectancy is good for children who survive until at last word. least the age of 10. 233WH Education of Children with 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 234WH Cerebral Palsy Cerebral Palsy [Steve McCabe] The National Institute of Conductive Education, which is based just down the road from my constituency in As with many other conditions, parents and support Birmingham, has pioneered similar approaches. This groups for those with cerebral palsy report a lack of education should be available to all children with sensory awareness on the part of health professionals, teachers, motor disorders. Clinical and education staff, including educators and other local authority professionals they special educational needs co-ordinators, must receive have to deal with, and they regard this as an impediment both initial and ongoing training as part of their continuous to progress for their children with cerebral palsy. In development, so that they become fully acquainted with severe cases, children will need full support and therapeutic best practice in this area. input, specialist schools and specialist equipment, but Many years ago, Baroness Warnock advocated a for a great many a supportive and assistive environment policy of inclusion for children with SEN; and, on the in a mainstream school can easily be the best option. strength of her report, many special schools were closed. Since the introduction of the Children and Families However, in 2005 the Baroness admitted that the policy Act 2014, an education health and care plan—previously, had gone too far, leaving a disastrous legacy. Inclusion an SEN statement—may be needed to ensure that a is fine where it works, but it does not work for everyone. child with cerebral palsy receives appropriate support Elsewhere, I have spoken of Labour’s desire to see a and education, but that is not so in all circumstances. network of hub-and-spoke models—I do not think the One of the greatest problems when it comes to good Minister and I are that far apart on this—so that choices and appropriate education appears to emerge in specialist centres develop skills, expertise and training, respect of children with mild forms of the condition. and share these with local schools and nurseries in their This is about joined-up services, and the professionals locality. Surely that is the answer to the inclusion debate: and agencies actually listening to parents and providing not one or the other, but what is appropriate for the appropriate assistance—all factors that the Children individual and one supporting the other. and Families Act was designed to address; all factors Like many of the other high hopes contained in the where the local offer will play a crucial role. Children and Families Act, a key aspect of improving I listened with interest to the hon. Gentleman’s the lot of children with cerebral palsy is good joint suggestions about the local offer. I, too, am concerned commissioning and a constant dialogue with parents to about how well it will help to shape services across the help them to shape future provision, as well as to agree country. It is for that reason that my party has concluded on what is best for their child. I read in a briefing from that the local offer needs to be subject to an annual Action Cerebral Palsy—the hon. Member for Fareham assessment that takes account of the experience of alluded to this—that the parents and supporting organisations, so that we know “negativity about the potential of the Children’s and Families Act what is happening out there, we can identify progressive reform is the legacy of an adversarial SEN system, where the and innovative developments and the local authorities parents and practitioner involved have been left battle-weary and and geographic areas that are really working in the sceptical that change may be achieved.” spirit of the legislation, and we can recognise what is I recognise that sense of frustration and exhaustion, simply not good enough. Surely that is the best way to and that cynicism. I, too, have met too many parents drive up good practice and make clear what we are not who have had exactly that experience. willing to accept. I want to make it clear that the Minister and I have A criticism I hear repeatedly of existing models is in common a desire to change that history—that that there appears to be an over-emphasis on equipment- inevitability—about being the parent of a child with based interventions—perhaps a throwback to a bygone special needs. The Minister’s legislation offers a way age—rather than hands-on, active, sensory, motor learning forward, and I will work with him to ensure that the for children, as well as the accompanying training for implementation translates into action and not just nice parents and practitioners. When it comes to high-needs words. We have to take the opportunity and make it funding, there is insufficient evidence of a child-centred clear to parents that we recognise their struggle and that approach at this early stage. There tends to be a focus the purpose of the legislation is to try to change things. on equipment funding or support workers and ancillary It is not right that they should feel exhausted by the development, rather than a child-centred approach. That constant battle to achieve the support and services that strikes me as contrary to the spirit of the legislation that their children deserve as of right. the Minister is responsible for. At present, we do not seem to have the right balance I have said this to the Minister before, but we need to in sharing the skills that are available, so that the consider how best to review regularly the SEN code of expertise in specialist centres, voluntary organisations, practice, because it will play a vital role in how well the support groups, charities and independent bodies is legislation is implemented. I want to see authorities and utilised properly to help to build knowledge, skills and other agencies treating children and their parents as the training in the mainstream schools and nurseries that legislation intends. That approach should be accompanied children with cerebral palsy attend. I am keen to see by a small implementation team at the Department for access to specialist provision and expertise in cerebral Education. That is the only way to ensure that the palsy made available as soon as concerns are raised aspirations of the legislation are translated into action about a child’s development. We need to ensure that and that the sense of negativity that Action Cerebral every child who is capable of benefiting from such an Palsy describes is confronted. approach has access to educational programmes that We need to be confident that schools are developing address movement skills as education, rather than therapy. communication systems that at the very least ensure That was what the hon. Gentleman was referring home-school liaison books or phone texting or e-mail to when he talked about his experience of conductive systems, so that information is regularly exchanged and education through the Rainbow Centre in his constituency. acted upon. Where more than one service is involved, 235WH Education of Children with 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 236WH Cerebral Palsy Cerebral Palsy there should be regular “Team around the child”meetings, that role, been recognised for his efforts, as well as his so that all those involved work together in the best wider knowledge and skills. He now sits behind me as a interests of the child. valued Parliamentary Private Secretary in the Department Fatigue can be a factor in many disability conditions, for Education. He is therefore unable to speak in the including cerebral palsy, and parents need confidence debate, although I know he is champing at the bit to do that the school is capable of constructing the right so. Secondly, and more importantly, it is only thanks to rest/exercise balance to ensure that the child is making his tenacity, passion and leadership that we are having progress, but not being pushed beyond what is appropriate. the debate at all. I put on record my own appreciation, Schools should focus on those things. Many children along with that of my hon. Friend the Member for with cerebral palsy also suffer from memory difficulties, Fareham and many others in Blackpool and beyond, which puts an emphasis on well-planned lessons with for his continued efforts in raising awareness of cerebral knowledge in advance, so that the parent and child palsy and challenging us all to think hard about what know what is happening in the coming year, months, more we can do to support children and families living weeks and days. They can then prepare and make the with CP. most of their educational opportunities. The hon. Member The Government’s ambitions for disabled children for Fareham referred to transition periods being essential. and those with SEN, including those with cerebral Whether it be into secondary school or the various palsy, are the same as for all other children: for them to other transitions, it is vital that children make a proper achieve well in their early years, in school and in college; transfer from one setting to another and that it does not to find employment; to lead happy and fulfilled lives; happen haphazardly. Children with cerebral palsy, like and to have more choice and control over how they are many other children with disabilities, rely on their family supported. The reforms introduced by the Children and and a network of support, and it is vital that that is kept Families Act 2014, which came into effect in September, intact during any transition planning. should work to the benefit of all children and young In the autumn statement, the Chancellor made reference people, regardless of their type of need or impairment. to a number of initiatives designed to improve the law, We want to ensure that the reforms work well for all but I noticed that there was not any specific reference to children and young people with cerebral palsy. We are this area. Since we are so close to Christmas, is the keen to build our understanding of the evidence on Minister in a position to tell us whether there are any what works, and we will be more than pleased to work surprise presents for those with cerebral palsy? Can he with many of the excellent organisations out there with bring to bear any new money in this matter? To be clear, expertise in the area, including Action CP. Our national this is not solely a money issue; it is much more about voluntary and community sector grants programme is how well services work together. I am conscious of the another opportunity for us to support good proposals, enormous pressure on local authorities. Making progress including on early intervention and identification. I on early identification and the better use of available know that Action CP has submitted such proposals to services and having a local offer that is fair to everyone us in its bid through that programme. and a properly implemented code of practice is not Our special educational needs reforms and early years resource-free. I am curious to know how the Minister policies are designed to improve how we identify and will check that local authorities and other agencies have support children and young people with special educational sufficient resources to accomplish the things he has said needs. Getting the right start in life is so important for he wants to achieve. all children, but particularly for those who are disabled or have SEN. My hon. Friend the Member for Fareham 10.4 am is absolutely right that early identification and intervention The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education for children with cerebral palsy is crucial if we are to (Mr Edward Timpson): As ever, it is a pleasure to serve put in place the right support at the earliest possible under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. It is also opportunity to help mitigate its physical, emotional and good to know that I will not have the last word, which I educational impact and ensure that we allow them to am sure is a relief to everyone who has taken part in the reach their potential. debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for A number of measures are in place to identify children’s Fareham (Mr Hoban) on securing this debate by proxy, needs as early as possible, including those with cerebral if that is the right way to put it. Most importantly, he palsy. The key principle is that assessments have to be has brought to the attention of the House support for focused on the needs of the individual child and their children with cerebral palsy, borne from his experience particular circumstances. When they are between two of going to the Rainbow Centre in Fareham, of which and three years old, all children are offered a healthy he is clearly a vocal and passionate champion. He was child programme review, which is carried out by a instrumental, along with my hon. Friend the Member health professional. That is a snapshot assessment on for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), in a given day looking at health and development outcomes. establishing the recent parliamentary inquiry into cerebral Where the child is in registered early years provision, palsy, to which officials from the Department for Education the education practitioner, who is usually the child’s key and the Department of Health gave evidence. We look worker, must carry out a progress check when a child is forward to seeing the final report in the new year. aged between two and three, and provide parents and/or At this juncture, I will say a little more about the carers with a short written summary of the child’s contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool development in prime areas. I am also conscious that North and Cleveleys. First, having led the debate in the the golden years, as my hon. Friend the Member for House for many years on how we better support children Fareham puts it, fall before the age of two. We must and young people with cerebral palsy with such expertise, carefully consider what more we can do to establish as candour and aplomb, he has, through being too good at early as possible whether cerebral palsy is playing a part 237WH Education of Children with 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 238WH Cerebral Palsy Cerebral Palsy [Mr Edward Timpson] gets left behind and that learning and development opportunities are planned around each child’s needs in a young baby or toddler’s life and to put in place and interests. That is also at the heart of the reforms in support that will have a discernable, positive effect on moving towards to a birth to 25 single plan and assessment their future development. system to ensure consistency of approach from all The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve professionals who come into contact with a child throughout McCabe) mentioned some of the specific screening their education. The EYFS currently calls for integrated protocols for children who experience complications at working between health and education practitioners to birth, and I will pass on his views to my colleagues in assess a child’s development and needs at age two where the Department of Health. Decisions about conducting possible, which is particularly important for children with specific early screening protocols for conditions such as cerebral palsy. We have asked for integrated reviews to cerebral palsy are quite rightly made by specialist clinicians. be offered as standard practice from September 2015. Diagnosing cerebral palsy often takes time and no test As ever, there are some excellent examples of effective confirms it or rules it out. In some cases when a baby integration of education, health and care services. I can requires special care in hospital after being born, it may point to ones in Cornwall and Wolverhampton that we be possible for a confident diagnosis to be made relatively have discovered through engagement with the relevant quickly, which is good in order to ensure a quick authorities, but we need to ensure a consistent approach response. In many cases, however, a clear diagnosis is to integrated working across health and education not possible only after a few months or years of screening. only through legislation, but in practice on the ground. For those with milder symptoms, a diagnosis may not To follow that through, Ofsted will look for evidence of be rendered until the brain is fully developed at three to integrated working in all settings, from early years five years of age. through to the compulsory school age, to seek assurances Under the healthy child programme, babies undergo that early years providers and others are assessing children’s screening, health checks or immunisations at birth, progress and needs appropriately and are doing all that 72 hours, five to eight days, six to eight weeks, 12 weeks, they can to support each child’s development towards 16 weeks, six to eight months, 12 months, two and a half being ready for school and beyond. years and at school entry. Each of those routine contacts A more holistic picture of a child’s needs is more with a health professional enables parents to discuss likely to lead to the child getting the help that they need any concerns. They can then contact their health visitor through early intervention. Supporting more timely and or GP at any time should they have such a concern more accurate early intervention might be more effective, about their child’s development. As technology and could lead to longer-term savings and could improve science advance, we want to continue to push the boundaries children’s life chances, especially those from disadvantaged of what is possible to ensure that we get that confident backgrounds. That is why, for children of school age diagnosis at the earliest possible time. I am happy to and beyond, we have ensured that the new special work with my colleagues in the Department of Health educational needs code of practice gives clear advice on to establish whether the national health service is doing identifying needs and providing support, based on effective all that is possible. practice from successful schools, including those in the If significant concerns emerge or if a special educational achievement for all programme. need or disability is identified, practitioners should develop a targeted plan to support the child’s future My hon. Friend the Member for Fareham welcomed learning and development, involving other professionals the emphasis that the reforms rightly place on educational as appropriate. In doing so, to pick up on a point made and life outcomes, both in early years settings, schools by my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham and reinforced and colleges, and, for those with more complex needs, by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak, it is through co-ordinated assessment and a single education, right that as much understanding as possible is in place health and care plan. As the hon. Member for Birmingham, as to what learning is and how it can manifest itself in Selly Oak reminded us, health bodies and local authorities each individual child’s circumstances, so that no opportunity now jointly plan and commission services for disabled is lost to develop every aspect of their potential. children and young people and those with special As my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham set out, educational needs. I have worked closely with my colleagues the first few years of a child’s life are fundamentally in the Department of Health throughout the development important. They shape their future development and and implementation of the reforms, and will continue influence how well they do at school, their health and to do so, to ensure that health is an integral part of the well-being and their achievements later in life. We fully drive to improve outcomes for children and young recognise that, which is why, since September 2010, people, but where we could and should go further, we every three and four-year-old has been entitled to 570 will look to do that. I had an extremely productive hours a year of Government-funded early education meeting with the Under-Secretary of State for Health, over no fewer than 38 weeks of the year. Since September my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and 2013, the most disadvantaged two-year-olds across England North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), and we have a clear and have been able to access a funded early learning place. joint commitment to ensure that the work being done By May 2014, more than 116,000 two-year-olds were throughout the national health service to implement the already benefiting from early learning. That number reforms is as much a priority in the NHS as it is in has continued to grow since September 2014, when the education and social care agencies. number of children entitled to a place doubled to some Better information for parents and young people has 260,000. been a theme throughout the development of the reforms. Through the early years foundation stage, we seek to There should also be an opportunity for them to feed ensure quality and consistency in all early years settings, back, so that improvements can be made that reflect so that every child makes good progress, that no child their observations of where services may be falling 239WH Education of Children with 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 240WH Cerebral Palsy Cerebral Palsy short. Through the local offer, parents will know what authority has a published local offer—and that the offer they can reasonably expect their local early years provision, reflects the spirit of the reforms. The SEN advisers have school, college, local authority and local services to been working in the system for many years—they were provide without having to battle for the information, hand-picked for that reason—and their knowledge means which was so disparately spread in the past. From his that they can establish where there is a shortfall in the observations about the Rainbow Centre in his constituency, local offer and in the information available. my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham made the point Beyond the first year of implementation, we have well that the local offer in his local authority area makes been working closely with Ofsted. We have asked it to it clear that the centre is available to parents, but that that conduct a survey on local authority readiness for the is not reflected in the surrounding local authorities, which reforms and whether there is a need for an inspection do not necessarily see it as a part of their own offer. framework, so that parents may have confidence that We made it clear throughout the passage of the education, health and social care services are genuinely legislation—I am happy to reiterate it now—that a local working together with parents, families and children at offer is not confined to services within a local authority the earliest possible opportunity, involving them not area, in particular when it relates to specialist services. only in the development of their own plan, for their We tend to operate within what many would see as own child, but in the wider strategic plan for provision artificial boundaries, but many parents need to look in the local area. beyond their local authority to find the service that best We will announce soon how the accountability meets their children’s needs. Local authorities should framework will be shaped in future, but the Christmas therefore be thinking long and hard about services not present that I can offer to parents and families at this only within their own local authority, but in surrounding time of year is that we are clear with Ofsted about the areas, so that the local offer genuinely reflects what they need for a clear level of accountability that does not would reasonably expect to be made available to parents involve a direct relationship with the Department, instead for all conditions and for all children who have special relying on a local approach to accountability, which will educational needs and disabilities. Local authorities help to provide consistency throughout the country. I must consult parents of children with SEN and disabilities, hope that that will be a welcome development for many and children and young people themselves, when developing parents who were anxious to know how we intend to and reviewing their local offer and must publish the ensure that the reforms that we have set out and our action that they will take in response to comments vision will be translated into action on the ground. about it. That will help to ensure that local services are The need to raise awareness among professionals is a responsive to local needs and will make it even more key aspect of our reforms, as is the sufficiency of important that the offer reflects what parents say is education and health care specialists with the skills to required. support children, including those with cerebral palsy, a point made by both my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Hoban: I appreciate that I will have a second bite Fareham and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly of the cherry in a minute, but I just want to press the Oak. Transition points can often be a stage in a child’s Minister on this point about what the local offer includes. life where support can fall away, causing a period of He rightly places emphasis on consulting parents, but if uncertainty and or decisions to be delayed. That is the the parents do not know that there is a specialist centre whole reason why we have moved towards a clear birth-to-25 in the next county, or the next city in the case of system, for a much easier way to transcend movement Birmingham, they will not know how to feed that back. through the education system that does not include What steps will the Department take, either directly or different plans and different people, but gives parents through Ofsted, to monitor the composition of local and children consistency of support through what can offers? be a difficult time. The Government have established a clear, national Mr Timpson: I was going to come on to the issue of statutory framework for identifying, assessing and providing accountability, but will bring it forward in my contribution for all children with SEN and disabilities. Detailed as my hon. Friend has raised it. The hon. Member for arrangements are, rightly, made locally, allowing local Birmingham, Selly Oak also made the point about how provision to be more responsive to local need, but the to ensure that implementation is taking place on the needs of children and young people with SEN vary ground. A real difference for families would be if they greatly. Indeed, the needs of those with cerebral palsy had a different experience and a more coherent and can vary greatly, as we have heard, depending on the cohesive response from each agency, involving them precise nature of the condition and other factors in more in the process. That involves ensuring that the their life. Education settings therefore need to ensure local offer sets out clearly for parents what the local that they give their staff the training necessary to support authorities expect to make available. The regulations the individual needs of the children and young people that underpin the Children and Families Act—not only for whom they provide. the code of practice, but other delegated legislation—make Early years providers, schools and colleges are responsible it clear what local authorities should be doing to achieve for deciding what specialist expertise is required to meet just that. children and young people’s needs and for securing that In the early stages of implementation, we brought a expertise. That is explicit in the SEN code of practice. network of SEN advisers into the Department to work We have been at pains to drive the point home that it is with us, and they are out in the field the whole time, the responsibility of all teachers within a school or an establishing with all 150-plus local authorities that they educational setting to have an understanding and awareness have complied with the legal requirements of the Act in of special educational needs and disabilities, so that the publication of the local offer—every single local they can play their part and not see it simply as the role 241WH Education of Children with 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 242WH Cerebral Palsy Cerebral Palsy [Mr Timpson] We are also providing funds for SEN and disability parent carer forums in each local authority. Forums of the SEN co-ordinator or other specialists. Specialist play a central role in helping to shape local policies and organisations can play a key role in increasing awareness provision and they have been effective in co-producing of particular disabilities. My Department has supported local authorities’ local offers. From their knowledge of such organisations in the fields of autism, dyslexia, and the services available in the surrounding area, they have speech, language and communication needs, which are helped to draw out some of the gaps in some local the most prevalent types of SEN, to provide information, authority offers. We wanted to continue supporting advice and support to schools, early years settings and them in that, for the good reasons set out by my hon. local agencies. Friend. I am sure that parents of children with cerebral The new SEN and disability code of practice makes it palsy will want to be active in those forums, if they are clear that local authority and health partners should not already, and I would certainly encourage their ensure that a designated medical officer is in place to involvement. ensure that assessment planning and health support are The reforms we have set in train are still at the early carried out. I am interested in securing the further stages of implementation. We have set out a transition spread of DMOs. There are some excellent examples of of about three and a half years from the old system to where they are making a significant contribution, but the new. Throughout that period, however, our knowledge there is still scope for them to become more embedded should not remain static, and we remain open to the in more parts of the country. I will be looking at that suggestions, views and concerns of parents and those closely in the coming weeks and months. The code working in the SEN system to make sure that the work recognises that the DMO role would usually be taken we are doing to bring about a change in culture across by a paediatrician. The person appointed should have that system takes hold in the way we envisaged. appropriate expertise and links with other professionals. In that endeavour, the work my hon. Friend has That helps to bind health in, not only with the clinical undertaken in this parliamentary inquiry, together with role of the DMOs but with the role that they can play my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and within schools, so that there is a genuine partnership to Cleveleys, who is ably assisting me this morning, is most ensure that assessment, planning, and implementation welcome. I hope—indeed, I am sure—they will continue and review of the plan are done as a collective response their work in their constituencies and in Parliament. I to the child’s needs. look forward to seeing their final recommendations in The Children and Families Act places the views, the inquiry’s report in the new year. wishes, feelings and aspirations of children, parents and I am more than happy to meet my hon. Friends and young people at the heart of the new system. That is representatives from Action Cerebral Palsy to see what what the Green Paper set out in 2011 and what we have more we can do to support children with cerebral palsy seen through to the conclusion of the legislation. To and their families. There is growing awareness of the make it happen we have an active young people’s national issue, but still far too little. Although we are all exercised advisory group, EPIC, who have been involved in the by the many points that have been raised in the debate, development of the reforms from the start, and they are it is incumbent on us all to make sure that understanding still with us. I meet the group regularly and I find their and awareness are much more widespread. involvement hugely valuable. They share with me their I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham real-life experiences, not only of the consequences when and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak for they get suitable, solid and constant support, but of their helpful, insightful contributions. If there is anything when the system fails to deliver and the fallout that I have not covered, I will, in the usual way, endeavour to occurs. Such input has helped us to focus on the practical write to them to provide them with further details. The implications of our reforms and led to some important debate has been helpful in setting out some of the and significant changes. Several of the young people challenges that still lie ahead and the progress that has involved in the EPIC group have cerebral palsy and been made, although we recognise that there is still have proved to be some of our most articulate and work to do. persuasive ambassadors. We are also doing a lot to improve advice and support 10.32 am for parents, including funding, through our reform partner, the Council for Disabled Children, and the recruitment Mr Hoban: It is a surprise and a pleasure to be asked and training of independent supporters in every local to wind up the debate; I was not quite prepared for that authority. When we asked parents what, under the old when I came here this morning. The contributions by system, would make the biggest difference to them in my hon. Friend the Minister and the hon. Member for battling it and in trying to get some of the basic Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) are welcome. provision necessary to getting on, they suggested Given the time we have had available, they extended independent supporters. Parents said that they would beyond the normal 10 minutes, which was hugely helpful value some independent support from someone who in exploring some of the issues that children with was not from the local authority or the health service, CP face. but had expertise in SEN and disabilities, in particular Despite having been involved with the Rainbow Centre in the areas most relevant to their own child. Independent for 13 years, I have learned so much from taking part in supporters will provide advice and support for parents the inquiry, and it is a real tribute to my hon. Friend of children with SEN and for young people with SEN the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul through the statutory assessment and the education, Maynard) that he led the process. The inquiry demonstrated health and care plan—or EHCP—processes. Such some of the complexities and challenges involved in supporters will help to build the resilience of families helping children with CP, and that came out of today’s and to tailor support to their individual needs. contributions in different ways. 243WH Education of Children with 9 DECEMBER 2014 Education of Children with 244WH Cerebral Palsy Cerebral Palsy The Minister and the shadow Minister talked about reforms, and it is clear from listening to the Minister the golden years, and integrating health and education what emphasis he places on the importance of successful is pivotal. We heard from witnesses about some of the integration. challenges involved in identification. We can help to The second point is about accountability.Accountability identify children at a much earlier age, but there are is important, because it is where the system will stand or barriers to that, and the more we can do on early fall. I am not often critical of the Government; as the identification, the easier it is to make a difference to Minister knows, I am a loyal supporter. His intentions children’s lives. In terms of the inquiry, we will want to are fantastic, and I know how committed he is on this talk with not only my hon. Friend the Minister but the issue, but we need to make sure that his intentions are Department of Health about those early years to ensure followed through on the ground, and that local authorities the right processes are in place. and local health services respond, following not only Two big points came out of the debate. One is about the letter of the law, but the spirit of the reforms he has integration, not only of health and education, but of introduced. A lot of people will be looking carefully at the state and the private sector, or the state and the the framework Ofsted will publish, to see how we can voluntary sector and charities. How can we maximise manage local accountability and national consistency. the resources that are available? One thing that strikes The framework should be a powerful tool to support me is that we are in danger of operating in silos, to the parents, who, at the moment, feel they are working detriment of children with cerebral palsy. There are through an adversarial system. great specialist services out there that are accessible, The implementation of the reforms and the role of particularly in the early years, and a lot of centres are Ofsted are vital, but we must do everything we can to registered with Ofsted, are respected and benefit from ensure proper integration between specialist services, Government funding. However, as a child grows up, the education and health to improve the life chances of services seem almost to be teased apart. It is harder for children born with cerebral palsy. There is much we a child at primary school to have time in their curriculum need to learn about what causes cerebral palsy and to go to a specialist centre to continue an educational about the best interventions, but I am confident that, by programme that helps them with their motor skills, and working together, we will improve the quality of children’s the pressures become greater as children progress through lives enormously, which will be a real testament to the the education system. success of the Government’s reforms. The more ways we can find for specialist support and Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I thank all Members mainstream schools to work together, the greater the who have taken part in this important debate. advantages for the children and for society as a whole. We therefore need to make sure integration works, and 10.37 am that we see that through as part of the Government’s Sitting suspended. 245WH 9 DECEMBER 2014 General Dental Council 246WH

General Dental Council and six or seven standards out of 10 for fitness to practice procedures. Although I have not delved deeply 11 am into this, it would appear that the report indicated that the independence of the GDC investigating committee Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I am delighted was in danger of being compromised. If so, that could to have the opportunity to air my concerns—although, reflect both on public protection and on fair consideration because of the time restrictions, only some of them—about for referred dental practitioners. Among the profession the General Dental Council. I am particularly delighted at least, and to some degree outside it, there is a feeling to see the Health Minister who is responsible for, among that the GDC is—to use a hackneyed phrase—not fit other things, regulation. I fear that, due to a quirk in the for purpose. law, he may not be able to help me too much today, but any general hints will be gratefully received. Concerns were bought to a head when on 30 June the I must commence with a small selection of declarations GDC embarked on a consultation concerning the proposal of interest. First, as a registered dentist, I am subject to to raise its annual retention fee by 64%—and this in an the dental regulators. Like other dentists in my position, atmosphere throughout the nation of financial restraint, I pay their annual fees and I am subject to their regulation. with enormous pressure by Government to restrain fee Secondly, I have a link with Lockton, an insurance rises among public bodies and organisations. As someone broker specialising in professional indemnity, including with considerable interest in the efficiency of local insurance, for a growing number of dentists. Thirdly, I authorities, so as to keep local taxes down—which, chair the all-party group on dentistry. Finally, as one incidentally, most have managed to do in the current can imagine, because of all that, I am under considerable environment—I believe that any increase over 1% pressure from a number of dental groups, some of is irresponsible. The outcry among the profession was which I am a member of, numerous dentists—the e-mails considerable, particularly as many registrants do not flooded in when this debate was announced—and normally criticise the GDC because their vocational life dentistry-related organisations that wish this debate to or death depends on it. The vast majority of complainants take place. asked the GDC to justify the increase, as did leading dental organisations, including the British Dental As the Minister is aware—although you may not be, Association. Mr Hollobone—the two main regulators of registered dental practitioners are the Care Quality Commission At the last minute, the GDC postponed its decision and the General Dental Council. They serve slightly and announced that it had commissioned KPMG to different functions, although there is a feeling among prepare an independent and “full review” of the the profession that they overlap. Both are funded by assumptions underlying the suggested fee increase in fees paid by dental professionals. the consultation. On behalf of its members, the BDA Virtually every registered dental professional, along sought sight of the instructions to KPMG and a list of with their organisations and registered staff, accepts documents provided for its assessment—not an and believes—as do I—in the need for dental regulation. unreasonable request, bearing in mind that the BDA On arrival as inspector of dental surgery, the CQC, represents dentists who have to pay the fee. They were although initially feared, spent some time finding its not forthcoming and freedom of information requests way. Many practitioners may not agree, but my personal were refused. feeling is that the CQC has become progressively more The BDA had definite suspicions that there was a proportionate and tends to encourage the raising of paucity of clear figures and that misleading data had standards, rather than riding in on practices in a heavy- been included. It maintained that no clear business case handed way. In comparison with the GDC, the annual had been made for any increase. It was not alone in fee that I paid to the CQC for the next financial year those suspicions, which were later compounded when dropped by 20%. the KPMG report apparently—although I have not had Also in contrast to the CQC, the reputation of the access to it—assessed that many of the key assumptions GDC has drastically deteriorated among the profession contained over the last year or so. The situation was foreseen in “high levels of estimation uncertainty”. 2009, when Rick Haythornewaite, the then highly respected chairman of the Risk and Regulatory Advisory Council, The Australians have a short, sharp phrase to cover that gave a lecture to the GDC entitled “A practical approach English expression. In the event, the GDC lowered the to risk for 21st century regulators”. It is worth quoting increase from 64% to 55%. The bill is sitting on my desk a fairly long paragraph from that speech: at the moment. “When regulators get it right the customer and the public enjoy KPMG’s advice alone leads to questions about the the advantage of choice, feel the benefit of unseen protections; original proposal and the thinking behind it. I understand when they get it right these people who serve the customer and that the main reason given by the GDC for the rise is public, whether they be company employees or they be professional that it is because of the substantial rise in patient service providers such as yourselves or whoever else, feel motivated, complaints and the immense cost of fitness to practice they feel empowered to perform, to innovate, to adapt. When they get it wrong though, the customer and the public feel the straitjacket investigations and procedures. To my horror, I discovered of unnecessary regulation, the weight of disproportionate interventions that many investigations take 18 months, leaving the and the frustration of curtailed civil liberties.” patient and dentist hung out to dry for the whole That last sentence should be printed in a large font, period. framed and placed on every wall in every room at the In case the public were unaware, the GDC took out a GDC. full-page advertisement in one of the national papers The Professional Standards Authority regularly reviews encouraging complaints—or, perhaps I should say, “advising the GDC. Its most recent report stated that the GDC patients how to complain”—to the GDC. From my failed to meet two out of five standards for registration years of experience in indemnity protection, I know 247WH General Dental Council9 DECEMBER 2014 General Dental Council 248WH that the first and most successful avenue of complaint order that will legalise that change. That does not seem from a patient is the dentist or dental professional. to be reflected in the GDC estimate and predictions. It Most, if not all, dental and medical indemnity providers claims that the increase in complaints will require an assist practitioners in resolving complaints. They are additional £18 million. exceptionally competent at that, and resolution covers My experience of cost-cutting in the public service many of the complaints, which therefore do not need to tells me that some lateral thinking on expenditure, by progress to the GDC, unless it is encouraged. As any looking at small as well as large costs for efficiency MP will understand from their experience of constituency improvements, can be productive. On small costs, this complainants, dental professional complaints vary from example may not apply now, but a few years ago I the deeply serious to the vexatious and the frivolous. helped to organise a reception for an international oral Many years ago, when I used a purple-coloured surgery cancer symposium. I was offered the opportunity impression material, one of my lady patients claimed to attend for free, but on looking at the agenda, the next morning that the whole of her mouth and lips I realised that, in spite of my not inconsiderable had turned purple overnight. I immediately asked her to understanding of oral cancer, the proceedings were return to the surgery. Approximately an hour later, she beyond my education. Imagine my surprise to hear that telephoned to tell me that it had all gone away as she two or three lay members of the GDC were attending drove from the heights of Hampstead towards central the two or three-day conference. The likelihood of their London. She put it down to the change of air pressure education on the microscopic structure of various oral as she came down from her elevated Hampstead home. cancers being of any use to their role on the GDC was, Needless to say, on completion of her work and after to say the least, remote. However, I assume that the submitting an account, she replied with a writ. With the GDC paid for their not inexpensive hotel rooms, plus assistance of my then indemnifying organisation, we travel and two or three meals a day, as well as the cost of arranged for a senior consultant to review her situation. attending the conference. The problem was resolved when the consultant referred In a more substantial area, I understand—again I am her to Guy’s hospital for dental and psychiatric treatment. a little cautious, because I may be wrong—that the The bill remains unpaid. GDC is undertaking a total review and refurbishment The resolution approach is implicitly encouraged by of its property. The funding for that, I understand, has the CQC, which requires practices to keep a complaints come from balances rather than through a loan or file setting out complaints and how they are dealt with mortgaging system, which would have spread the costs by the practice. Complaints to the GDC about private and allowed its balances to be used to buffer expenditure dentistry go through a triage and resolution system. As as new procedures and cost savings, which it claims to a result, many do not progress further. In particular, be looking for, were installed. they do not progress to fitness to practice hearings. I am interested the GDC’s involvement in allowing—I However, it appears that national health service complaints use that word carefully—the Department of Health and to the GDC almost certainly plough straight into the the Minister to look at its finances, savings and its full procedure, leading to fitness to practice hearings. justification for the proposed increase in the annual For the patient and the practitioner, these are generally retention fee. That interest extends to whether the legislation long, drawn out and draining. For the dentist and his or on health regulators, which has been drawn up for her indemnifier, the costs can be ghastly, adding to the possible implementation after the election, will for the professional’s fear and emotional trauma. first time allow direct Government and ministerial influence Particularly in these days of complicated dental on the GDC and, in particular, its fees. I fail to be procedures, I have severe doubts on occasions that the convinced that it has really looked sufficiently at its committee members, whether lay or professional, have costs and procedures in seeking savings. It appears to sufficient knowledge to make a decision without help. me that, under attack, the GDC has started to become That help is drawn by the GDC from experts—or, reclusive and adopted a bunker mentality. I understand should I say, so-called experts. In a few cases, the that hearings and council meetings are increasingly held so-called experts are making a career professional career in private, which is all the more alarming when its out of producing condemnatory reports for the GDC. chairman, in delivering the annual Malcolm Pendlebury One practitioner I know well, who has considerable lecture, appeared to be seeking to expand its areas of postgraduate expertise combined with the appropriate operational interest. degrees from that postgraduate work, was taken apart Good professional dentistry and medicine is built on by a so-called expert who did not appear to have the good relationships with patients and on trust and confidence appropriate degrees or experience. I looked at that between the professional and their patients. This has expert’s website, which contained considerable references improved dramatically over the last few years. The to the large numbers of reports that he undertook for GDC should have a role in that, but its image in the eyes the GDC. He appeared to be making a side career out of the profession—and, I believe, as consequence of its of aggressive reports on behalf of the GDC against the procedures, patients—has reached an all-time low. The professionals. After a protest to the GDC, it accepted a dental profession’s trust in this regulator has gone. I second expert report, which was dramatically different suspect that the patients’ trust will follow in due course. and was to the benefit of my colleague. I accept that, at last, the GDC is taking, or seeking to 11.14 am take, steps to reduce costs. It claims that it needs legal changes to be able to use the same service for private The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health dentists as it does for to the NHS. I find that a little (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a pleasure to serve under your wrong; nevertheless, the Government have accepted chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and a great pleasure to that to some degree and are introducing a section 60 respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley 249WH General Dental Council9 DECEMBER 2014 General Dental Council 250WH

[Dr Daniel Poulter] fees to the same extent. I therefore understand why the British Dental Association has chosen to test this decision (Sir Paul Beresford). I congratulate him on securing the and issued judicial review proceedings challenging the debate and on bringing to bear his front-line experience setting of the fee. The hearing is set to take place next of working as a dentist, both in this debate and more week, so I am sure that hon. Members will understand generally. He has shown his experience today in getting that it is inappropriate for me to comment further on to the heart of some of the issues he raised, as he has those proceedings. done in many debates in the House on issues relating to health care. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): I am grateful to The General Dental Council is an important part of the Minister for giving way, and I congratulate the hon. the health care regulatory framework that ensures the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) on securing fitness to practise of health care professionals and the this debate. I have been written to by Derbyshire county safety of patients. It is right that we should debate local dental committee, which is concerned that the the GDC’s performance, particularly in the light of a General Dental Council, under the leadership of its less than complementary performance review by the current chair, is investigating much more minor concerns Professional Standards Authority, and given the major than it did previously. That expansion in its role is one rise in the fee that dentists will be expected to pay to of the reasons why it is now asking dentists for more their regulator. fees. Will the Minister let us know whether he thinks My hon. Friend will be aware that the General Dental that the direction that the General Dental Council is Council is an independent statutory body that is directly taking is the wrong one, as my constituents clearly do? accountable to Parliament. However, as he rightly highlighted, I have no legal basis to intervene in matters Dr Poulter: As I said, under legislation, I am unfortunately such as the level of the fee, which are deemed to be part powerless to intervene directly on fee setting. We recognise of the body’s operational running. However, in my role the independence of health care regulators and would as Minister, I have a keen interest in the performance of not want them to be micro-managed by Government; the professional regulators and have regular contact that would be wrong. However, my view is very clearly, with them, including the GDC, on a whole range of as I have outlined, that a strong evidence base is needed issues. to justify a fee rise. Given that other health care regulators The background to today’s debate is that the General faced with similar challenges have not raised their fees Dental Council recently took the decision to increase to the same unprecedented degree, I have not myself the annual registration fee for dentists by 55%, from been convinced that the evidence base is strong enough £576 to £890, which is a significant and unprecedented to justify this fee rise. I hope that that answers the hon. increase. All professional regulators, including the GDC, Gentleman’s question. are aware of the Government’s position, as set out In that context, it is worth drawing attention to the in our 2011 Command Paper, “Enabling Excellence: section 60 order currently in progress in the House, and Autonomy and Accountability for Health and Social to the consultation process that has been taking place. Care Staff”: we do not expect registration fees to increase The fee rise is perhaps all the more surprising as we are unless there is a clear and strong case that the increase is making good progress with the GDC on bringing in the essential to ensure the exercise of statutory duties. legislative changes that will reform the way that it While the General Dental Council has consulted its operates. Those changes, in the form of a section 60 registrants on the proposed fee rise, I am aware of, and order, will assist with reducing its operational costs by sympathetic to, a strong body of opinion among its an estimated £2 million a year through potential efficiency registrants that they are yet to be presented with compelling savings. My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley evidence to justify such an unprecedented fee increase. made the point that all regulators need to look at better The proposed fee is more than double the £390 that the ways of working and efficiency savings in their own General Medical Council requires licensed doctors to practice. Of course, that, as well as patient protection, is pay. That is why, when I met the GDC, I raised concerns a benefit of introducing a section 60 order: it will help about the fee increase and reconfirmed the Government’s to reduce the running costs, potentially, of the GDC position on the need for a strong and transparent case and streamline processes. for any such increase. The public consultation on the GDC-related section 60 I have also strongly suggested to the GDC that it order recently closed, and the vast majority of respondents considers a differential rate for newly qualified dentists. were supportive of the proposals. We therefore intend Newly qualified doctors are required to pay £185 for to proceed with the measures and will publish our their registration with the GMC, while newly qualified response to the consultation in due course. My hon. dentists pay the same as established dentists. The GDC Friend may be surprised to learn, as I was, that the stated to me as justification for its fee rise that there has GDC did not wait for the outcome of the section 60 been a 110% increase in the number of complaints from order consultation before announcing the fee rise. patients, employers, other registrants and the police The changes proposed in the section 60 order will: about the dental profession, and that the cost of handling enable the GDC to delegate the decision-making functions such complaints has been the key driver of the increase. currently exercised by its investigating committee to However, I have not been presented with what I consider officers of the GDC, known as case examiners; enable to be compelling evidence that a fee rise of that magnitude both case examiners and the investigating committee to is justified by a 110% increase in the number of complaints. address concerns about a registrant’s practice by agreeing It is worth noting that other health care regulators, as undertakings with that registrant, which have the same my hon. Friend suggested, have experienced increases in effect as conditions on practice, without the need for a complaints but have not felt compelled to raise their practice committee hearing; introduce a power to review 251WH General Dental Council9 DECEMBER 2014 General Dental Council 252WH cases closed following an investigation—rules to be challenges that need to be considered in putting together made under that power will provide that a review can the Bill. We are committed—I would like to put this on be undertaken by the registrar if she considers that the the record again—to bringing forward primary legislation decision is materially flawed, or new information has to address wider reforms to the system of professional come to light that might have altered the decision and a regulation when parliamentary time allows, but in the review is in the public interest—introduce a power to meantime, working with the regulators, we have put in allow the registrar to decide that a complaint or information place, or have in train, a number of section 60 orders. received did not amount to an allegation of impairment They are about streamlining processes, providing efficiencies of fitness to practise; introduce a power to enable the to the regulators and, most important of all, protecting investigating committee and the case examiners to review patients and the public. their determination to issue a warning; and ensure that Let me say a quick word about the GDC’s general registrants can be referred to the interim orders committee performance. It is very important that the GDC manages at any time during the fitness to practise process. its rising volumes of complaints as well as the other Very similar section 60 orders have been laid before issues raised by the Professional Standards Authority as Parliament in conjunction and consultation with other part of its annual performance review. In due course, regulators, and a great benefit of those orders is that the GDC will need to demonstrate what it has done to they are about not just protecting the public but supporting address the recommendations made. the regulators to have more streamlined processes and Hon. Members may be aware that the Professional reducing costs. Of course, when costs are reduced, we Standards Authority is also conducting an investigation would always expect the savings to be passed on to the of the GDC after claims were made by a whistleblower people who pay the annual fee. about the management and support processes of the GDC’s investigating committee. I understand that Sir Paul Beresford: Is there evidence that the other the Professional Standards Authority has concluded registering organisations have reduced their fees, or the evidence-gathering phase of the investigation, is keep them down, in the light of the anticipated savings, in the process of compiling the investigation report, which would be sensible? and will provide that report to the Select Committee on Health and publish it on its website in due course. Dr Poulter: If we look at similar organisations, we see I have outlined a number of issues and concerns that the GMC, for example, has similar practices and about the unprecedentedly high rise in the GDC fee. As processes. The Nursing and Midwifery Council has a we have discussed, it is out of keeping and inconsistent very small fee rise, but has seen a similar section 60 with the behaviour of many other health care regulators. process take place. All those regulators, in my view, have I am not convinced, from the evidence that I have been taken every step possible to look at their annual fee in presented with, that there is a strongly evidenced case to the context of the section 60 orders, and with the support that fee rise, and it goes against Government mindset that any fee rise needs to be fully evidence policy, which is to encourage regulators to set appropriate based and appropriately proportionate. From my and proportionate fee rises, to show restraint where conversations, and from the practice of other health appropriate and to be mindful of the effects of fees on care regulators, I think that there is very good evidence registrants. that that is a consistent pattern of behaviour. As I said, the GDC’s fee rise is unprecedentedly large, and its I want to make it clear, in drawing to a conclusion, behaviour is not consistent or in keeping with that of that I am not raising any doubt about the fact that the any of the other health care regulators, from what I GDC continues to fulfil its statutory duties. However, it can see. will need to make significant improvements to meet the challenges set out in the annual performance review In addition to the GDC-related section 60 order, the undertaken by the Professional Standards Authority. Government are taking forward a number of key pieces Registrants, patients and the public need to be able to of secondary legislation in this Parliament to address have confidence in the performance of the GDC and to priority areas that we have identified after discussion see improvements in its operation, effectiveness and with the regulatory bodies and other stakeholders; I efficiency. I hope that I have answered all the points mentioned other section 60 orders. We are also working raised in the debate, and I again thank my hon. Friend on a response to the Law Commission’s valuable work the Member for Mole Valley for raising a very important on proposals for more wide-ranging reforms. issue that I am sure is filling many MPs’ postbags. I am aware that the decision not to progress a professional regulation Bill in the current Session has come as a Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I thank all hon. disappointment to interested parties. However, that decision Members who took part in the debate. provides an opportunity to invest time in ensuring that that important legislative change is got right, for the benefit of those who will ultimately be affected by it. 11.29 am My hon. Friend outlined very articulately some of the Sitting suspended. 253WH 9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 254WH

Anti-Semitism Of course, supporting the Palestinian cause is not anti- Semitic, but when someone shouts “Child murderer” at a British Jew, or daubs that on a synagogue, that is [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] anti-Semitism. Open anti-Semitism is rare in mainstream politics 2.30 pm and media, but hateful expressions and ideas that would John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): It gives me no pleasure not be publicly directed against Jews are now publicly whatever to introduce this short debate on anti-Semitism. directed against Zionists. Zionists are depicted in the The whole aim of the all-party group against anti-Semitism same way as Jews are by the anti-Semites: malevolent, is eventually to be able to remove ourselves from the all-powerful, all-controlling, covert and inauthentic. Hate political agenda because there is no need for us, but I speech against Zionists leads to the demonisation and fear that none of us in this room will have the pleasure hatred of all suspected Zionists—in other words, Jews. of seeing such a day. That may not be intentionally anti-Semitic from a perpetrator’s perspective, but it has a negative impact Things have not improved over the past year. During on most British Jews. The same is true when Members the summer of 2014, the significant escalation of violence of this House speak in such a way. They are not simply in the middle east provoked a major increase in anti-Semitic being irresponsible; they are being potentially dangerous. attacks in the UK and across the world. Anti-Semitic incidents reached record levels in July, when the Community Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I Security Trust recorded the highest ever monthly total agree with the chair of the all-party group on anti-Semitism, of such incidents in the UK. The trust has been keeping of which I am a member, on the need for proper care in records since 1984, and over the past two years it has relation to the words that we use. It is possible to foment exchanged data with various police forces to improve anti-Semitic thoughts and actions, particularly when respective accuracy. In July, 302 incidents were recorded, people talk about Zionism and a financial lobby. Does which represents an increase of more than 400% from that not raise concerns about going down the path of the 59 incidents that were recorded in July 2013. By anti-Semitism? comparison, 304 incidents were recorded in the first six months of 2014. Before July, the highest ever monthly total had been for January 2009, which also coincided John Mann: The hon. Gentleman is active in the work with a period of conflict between Israel and Hamas. of the all-party group and in Parliament, and he is absolutely right. It is easy to see where the dividing line Of the 302 recorded incidents, 51% involved direct is and what is inappropriate. One of our big successes in reference to the ongoing conflict. All incidents require recent years is that each political party in the House has the recording of evidence of anti-Semitic language, been prepared to deal with issues involving its own targeting or motivation alongside any anti-Israel sentiments. Members. That approach, if it can be maintained, is Of the anti-Semitic incidents recorded in July, 101 involved precisely the way in which such things are most effectively the use of language or imagery relating to the holocaust, challenged. In other words, it is important not to make and 25 of those showed evidence of far-right political offensive remarks—whether they are made out of deliberate motivation or beliefs. Most commonly, references to prejudice or ignorance—into issues of party political Hitler or the holocaust were used to taunt or offend point scoring, but to get each party to sort its own Jews, often in relation to events in Israel and Gaza. Of house out. the 302 incidents, 25% took place on social media. That is easy to say, but I think we underestimate the Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): I congratulate the power of that model and the power of the cross-party hon. Gentleman on securing this much needed debate. consensus that we have built in this House. Let me and Does he agree that the real number of incidents is far my party deal with those who are anti-Semitic or who greater even than the terrible figures that he is reading ignorantly cross the threshold in what they say, do or out, because many people do not report them out of write, and let the Liberal Democrats, the Conservative fear? I report such things, and only the other week I party and other parties in the House do the same. That received a phone call in which I was called a dirty Jew is an effective way of taking a lead in tackling anti-Semitism. and told that I should be stoned to death. I would call it the British model, in the sense that others across the world are increasingly convinced that that is John Mann: Without question, the recorded number how anti-Semitism should be dealt with at high levels in of incidents is a significant underestimate. It is valuable Parliament and Government. in itself and as a benchmark for comparing trends, The Minister will know well of the all-party group’s because the basis of recording by the CST is without inquiry into anti-Semitism in the UK in 2005-06, which question the world best. It is renowned across the world made 35 recommendations for Government, Parliament for being so. Trends can be easily identified from those and civil society. I am pleased to report that, in my figures, and the trend this year has been a huge increase. judgment, we have worked successfully with the That is why I applied for this debate. Government, Ministers and other partners to implement I will give hon. Members some examples of what I the inquiry recommendations and to go beyond them. am talking about. On a march through central London, Our successes have included the establishment of a demonstrators verbally abused a Jewish woman who unique Whitehall government working group on anti- was with her two children, telling them to “burn in Semitism; an agreement for all police forces to record hell.” The reality for British Jews is that most are anti-Semitic hate crimes; the publication by the police Zionist, with various levels of emotional and familial of the first official anti-Semitic hate crime statistics; a attachment to Israel, so the communal concern about funding agreement for the security needs of Jewish faith Israel and conflict-associated anti-Semitism is significant. schools in the state system; a Crown Prosecution Service 255WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 256WH review and action plan; the creation of a Government- virtually no other issue in Parliament that can have that backed school-linking programme; research into modern guarantee, which is the strength of what I call the discursive anti-Semitism funded by the Government; British model. the appointment of a UK envoy for post-holocaust Other countries are now attempting to emulate the issues; two ministerial conferences and international British model, which is entirely counterintuitive to normal action plans on internet hate, and I believe that there political cultures. In a sense, because we have done it so will be another one in the near future; the highly effective effectively for so long in this country, we have become international replication of the all-party group inquiry not blasé, but used to it. We have heard about the model in countries such as Germany and Canada; a full difficulties in reaching such consensus in, for example, inquiry into electoral conduct and resultant action from Germany because it runs counter to the culture in key agencies; and work with Government that has led, which politics takes place. Despite the shared ownership among other successes, to the publication of a guide by and responsibility for addressing anti-Semitism in Germany, the Society of Editors to editing online newspaper they cite the British example of how to get that momentum. comment boards. Those successes are significant, but That is powerful because, as well as sending a message they leave no room for complacency, not least because to the Jewish community and to institutions in civil of the increase this year in the scourge of anti-Semitism. society, it sends a message to civil servants. They have In September, I instigated a parliamentary report on been doing their job in this area very well, and the anti-Semitism emanating from the conflict in the middle message it sends is that that momentum will be there. east, with a number of events across the country to Woe betide the Minister who tries to row back and slow meet Jewish communities and better understand their down, whatever party they are from, because there will anguish. There is a further such event this Thursday in be enough people from their own party going straight in Manchester. Evidence has been submitted by individuals, to see them. organisations, the police, Government bodies and others, and MPs have visited France, Germany, Holland and Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I Ireland to undertake comparative analyses. We intend join my colleagues in congratulating the hon. Gentleman to launch the report in the new year with an event at on securing this debate. He is right about the consensus Lambeth palace, courtesy of the Archbishop of Canterbury, that we have proudly built in Britain on addressing this which in itself is significant in crossing faiths to stand issue. A few years back I was fortunate to take a group up to anti-Semitism. I congratulate the Church of England of sixth-formers from my constituency to Auschwitz. on its openness to such work, including with our group. My son went only last year, and he was very moved by The recommendations are the most important issues the whole experience, but he highlighted one thing that emanating from the report, and I want to be sure that I want to address today—perhaps the Minister will they will be carefully considered by Ministers and referred address this in his closing remarks, too. My son expressed to the cross-Government working group on anti-Semitism particular concern about his fellow sixth-formers’ lack for action. I would like a commitment from all parties of knowledge about the holocaust and lack of historical that, whoever wins the next election, in whatever perspective. The message from history is always that we combination, the next Government will work on anti- should learn the lessons of history, which are always Semitism throughout the next Parliament, because the pertinent and salient to our modern-day political discourse. problem is not going away. John Mann: One of the report’s conclusions may well be that educational methods and lessons from abroad Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I congratulate on how to teach such issues could inform the Government. the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. I also pay I am sure the Minister and his ministerial colleagues tribute to his great work in this field. I was recently will consider the report in detail, but there is some privileged to join him on the visit over the Irish sea. I important evidence on how we can do more, and do sincerely hope that the next Government is a Conservative things more effectively, in the curriculum. The hon. Government, but he says that, if there is a Labour Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) Government, he would work towards that goal. Does is absolutely right. he not agree that it is very disappointing that, apart from the shadow Minister and himself, no other Labour Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): On this issue Member is in attendance today? at least, I hope I can call the hon. Gentleman my hon. Friend. Good work is being done across the parties. John Mann: Members from all parties have been When he and I visited Germany it was clear that, involved in our work, which is fundamental. In this despite there being a strong commitment across political House we must not fall into the trap, as some European parties to protect the Jewish community, that in itself countries have, where anti-Semitism becomes an issue has become a source of competition. We are always of political ding-dong across Chambers. The fundamental tempted either to point the finger at other people’s bad strength of the British parliamentary model is that we behaviour or to be boastful of our own good behaviour, have invested huge amounts of effort to ensure that whereas, in the political context here, it must be right for hon. Members from both sides are involved. The evidence us to have some humility about our failures and some for that strength is that, when there was a change of pride in our successes. Government, and when there have been ministerial changes, the work has continued, irrespective of the Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I ask that Minister. Thankfully, every Minister we have had has interventions be brief. They are becoming quite long, been very positively engaged, I am confident that, whoever and those intervening are not on the list of speakers. I is appointed Minister by whoever is Prime Minister in do not wish to take time from those who do wish to 2015, this work will continue in the same way. There is make a speech. 257WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 258WH

John Mann: Thank you, Mrs Main. I agree with the the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), right hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell) which I was pleased to see praised publicly by Mr Speaker that the question of behaviour is fundamental. In a and many senior party representatives and stakeholders. minute, I will say a word on electoral conduct, on which We found in the inquiry that although there was sufficient he has made a huge effort on behalf of Parliament. legal provision to address incidents of racism and discrimination in UK elections, the law is underused We anticipated that the fourth Government report on and misunderstood. We recommended that some of the anti-Semitism would be tabled this morning, and I hope language of electoral law needed to be updated. The there are no political reasons for any delay, which really Law Commission, which has undertaken a consultation would be a shift in approach. Will the Minister confirm on such change, wrote to tell us that our recommendations that, as before, it will be a governmental report, rather would help in its design. than a departmental report, and that the Government will not downgrade it from previous publications, which We also found that the role played by the former have been formal Command Papers? That is rather Commission for Racial Equality in providing guidance important. and demystifying the law had been helpful. Its successor, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, dropped Many civil servants have been involved, but I pay the mantle but has since picked it up again to a certain particular tribute to Sally Sealey and Paul Giannasi, extent. In a response to a debate called by Lord Alderdice, who have been the two most integrally involved. They a Minister said: are a huge inspiration to parliamentarians and those in civil society who are combating anti-Semitism. I also “The EHRC is now looking at how best to update its guidance thank the staff of the all-party group, whom all Members on elections for local authorities and other organisations for use in attendance know well: Danny Stone is the director; in 2015.” —[Official Report, House of Lords, 1 December 2014; Jardena Lande does the international work; and Amy Vol. 757, c. 1195.] Wagner does the research. They have put in huge amounts Although that is not a cast-iron guarantee, I take it and of work and all too often do not get the credit and a subsequent ministerial letter to mean that the EHRC accolades for their work that we politicians get—the will be doing that work. I do not know whether the record should be put right on that. Minister can comment on that, but if so, it is to be Before I finish, I will say a word on social media and welcomed, and those who participated in the inquiry electoral conduct. We have ongoing problems with social need the House’s congratulations. If the Minister cannot media, and I will not go through the debate I had on comment now, it would be useful if he could confer that in the main Chamber a month or two back. Suffice with colleagues and confirm later that the EHRC will it to say that the problems of anti-Semitism and other do as I believe it is doing. hate speech on social media are not going away. Some The electoral conduct inquiry also addressed concerns perpetrators remain active. The one who was arrested about discrimination in the media, having heard evidence for abusing me is currently abusing various Christian on homophobia, racism and anti-Semitism. It is relevant groups and organisations. The police and the Crown to anti-Semitism and all other forms of discrimination. Prosecution Service, who have powers, need to issue We have written to the secretary of the editors’ code what I call a Twitter or Facebook antisocial behaviour committee of the new Independent Press Standards order to ban such people from the particular medium Organisation. I wish to make it clear to that organisation by which they are criminally abusing, bullying and that we believe that attempts to secure a sensible balance intimidating people. between the defence of freedom of expression and Frankly, it is water off a duck’s back when I receive protection from discrimination should be possible, and abuse, even though it is inappropriate and offensive, but that we expect it to engage constructively with us before it must be incredibly intimidating for people involved the election on that matter, which was raised as a point in, say, running a Christian charity to receive anonymous of concern by the Joint Committee on Human Rights or pseudonymous abuse. For a member of the Jewish and the CRE before it was raised by us. community to receive such vile abuse is, again, a different I end by making the same point to the internet proposition. I am not suggesting that abusing Members companies that I made a few weeks ago: we expect them of Parliament is acceptable—it absolutely is not, and to step up to the mark and not to allow anti-Semitic what was said about my hon. Friend the Member for abuse via their platforms. It is demeaning of their good Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) was horrendous— name that they allow it to happen. Twitter in particular but many people out there are less able to defend has been extraordinarily hopeless at dealing with abuse, themselves. and its brand name is being dragged into the mire by its We need some powers. I do not think that the law continuing failure to do so. It is possible. Twitter could needs changing: I think that it needs using inventively. I assist law enforcement in this country if it got its act call on the Crown Prosecution Service and the police to together, which it has not done, and we in this House use the internet equivalent of an ASBO to target some should continue to highlight its failures until it not only of these people and close them down. It is not free comes to the table but acts up to the mark and shows speech; it is criminal abuse. The sanction would be a that it is properly part of civil society. criminal sanction agreed by a magistrate or judge and jury, so by definition, stopping such abusers would not Finally, on behalf of all those who have been active be closing down free speech but protecting it. over the last year, I thank colleagues across the House for how they have engaged. I thank the Jewish community There is much more that I could say, but a word needs organisations with which we worked so closely and the to be said on electoral conduct. We held a cross-party Jewish community leaders Sir Trevor Chinn, Stephen inquiry into electoral conduct, led by my hon. Friend Rubin, Trevor Pears, Gerald Ronson, the Chief Rabbi 259WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 260WH and others with whom we have worked so effectively in of comments made in the House that highlight my partnership. I am sure that the message from this debate concerns. In the recent debate on the Israel-Palestine will be that we will continue to do so regardless of our situation, one hon. Member said: personal choice of who should be in government. Whether “My hon. Friend is absolutely right. You cannot appeal to the any of us are in government or opposition, the all-party Israelis’ better nature, because they do not have one. You can, group will continue to work on a cross-party basis to however, threaten them financially.”—[Official Report, 1 December deal with anti-Semitism and take the lead that we are 2014; Vol. 589, c. 15WH.] elected to take in dealing with such curses. That is a disgraceful slur. It is the age-old slur of the Jews being keen on money, used in the context of an 2.55 pm attack on the Israeli state. That type of language equates the old hatreds that exist, unfortunately, in many parts Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): It is a pleasure to of Europe with an attack on the Israeli state, and any follow the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), hon. Member making such a comment should ask whom I congratulate on securing this unfortunately themselves whether they are contributing to the increasing necessary debate. The work done by him and the all-party number of attacks that we are seeing in our society. group is a statement of what this House can achieve When we speak, we have a responsibility to be very when we work on a cross-party basis. I was privileged to careful about what we say. be part of a small delegation on this issue that visited the Netherlands recently. In the same way, last week one former Minister said on the BBC that there was a “powerful financial lobby” I will touch on a few issues that I think should be supporting the state of Israel. What is quite shocking mentioned in a debate of this nature. We should certainly about that comment is, first, that it came from a former highlight the concerns relating to the upsurge in anti-Semitic Minister and, secondly, and even worse, it was not even incidents reported by the Community Security Trust. challenged by the BBC. A “powerful financial lobby”—the The hon. Member for Bassetlaw was right to identify implication was that everybody would understand who the attacks on figures in public life, and we should that lobby was; in other words, it was accepted as part discuss that as well. It is also important for us in public of our discourse about the issue of Israel. life to be careful about equating the Jewish people with the Israeli state. We must highlight the potential for that When we see the figures from the CST highlighting equation—often made in a lazy manner by people the increase in the number of attacks as a result of what protesting things in the middle east that they disagree happened this summer in Gaza, we have an obligation with—to give rise to anti-Semitic comments. That is not to make sure that the language we use does not pander necessarily what is intended by those individuals, who to prejudice. Unfortunately, our track record across all are not thinking carefully about what they are doing, parts of the House—the two examples I have given are but I argue that equating Jewish people with the Israeli from different parts of the House, unfortunately—clearly state in that manner does not contribute to a healthy shows that we need to be much more careful in the way public debate. we use language. We must also mention some of the people who campaign Similarly, the hon. Member for Bassetlaw has highlighted for boycotting and divestment from Israel. Again, some the attacks on people in public life, not least—obviously— of that rhetoric can result in the expression of anti-Jewish the disgraceful attacks on the hon. Member for Liverpool, sentiments in our political discourse in this country. Wavertree (Luciana Berger). He has done the right Finally, I would like to mention the situation in Europe, thing in highlighting those issues, and we have a which I argue is shameful to all of us who believed that responsibility to challenge the social media companies the continent and the United Kingdom had learned the for their lack of action. I have grown a very thick skin lessons from the terrible recent history of anti-Semitism since becoming an MP, but even I was quite shocked on the continent. this summer to be accused on social media of being a “Jew lover”. My wife, as far as I know, is a Welsh It is shocking that before the situation in Gaza arose Protestant, and I have not been unfaithful; therefore, I this summer, figures from the Community Security would hope that that attack is not literally correct. Trust showed a 36% increase in anti-Semitic attacks in this country. Obviously those figures were dwarfed by what happened in July as a result of the terrible events Dr Offord: Equally, is my hon. Friend aware of the in Gaza. What comes out clearly from those figures is vitriolic abuse that the hon. Member for Bassetlaw that the Jewish population in the United Kingdom are (John Mann) received when he came to the defence of being equated, in the minds of many people who feel the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana strongly about that issue, with the state of Israel. It is Berger), and the criminal behaviour of individuals that important to challenge the language used in that context. Twitter failed to take any real action against? If such language gives rise to attacks on Jewish cemeteries and individuals in various parts of this country, there is Guto Bebb: Indeed, I am aware of those attacks, but I something wrong with the rhetoric being used. am sure that the hon. Member for Bassetlaw can look We have a responsibility in that discourse. It is an after himself. However, it is clearly an unacceptable area of huge emotion, and we have a responsibility for situation. My office reported some of the attacks that ensuring that we are careful in our use of words. I am were made on me, and the interesting thing is that it afraid that the experience of the past few weeks in this took three months for the social media companies even place indicates that even hon. Members of this House to respond. We complained in August; we received a are not taking the issue seriously. I will not relate these response from them last week. Indeed, by that point I to the individual Members concerned, as I have not had had forgotten why I had made a complaint in the first time to forewarn their offices, but I have a few examples instance. 261WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 262WH

[Guto Bebb] no link between the Jewish people in the UK and the actions of the Israeli state. Nevertheless, it is imperative The situation is simply unacceptable. One could argue that we understand the effect that the language used by that being attacked on social media is, unfortunately, intellectuals has on public discourse. On recent trips to part and parcel of being in public life—although no the Netherlands, one thing that emerged clearly from Member of Parliament should accept anything approaching discussions with members of the Jewish community what has been thrown at some hon. Members of this there was how the intellectual elite in universities was House. However, for an ordinary member of the public leading the debate to places that they had perhaps not to be attacked in such a manner, on racist grounds, is envisaged when they started the calls for divestment and simply unacceptable, and those companies, which have boycotts against Israel. Again, we need to be very the capacity to deal with the issue, should be challenged careful that the comparisons we make—or that people by this House to ensure that they do so. This is not are making—do not end up leading to anti-Semitic about freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is about behaviour. having the right to argue a case; what we are seeing is Finally, I want to touch upon my last visit to the not the argument of a case, but simply old prejudices Netherlands. According to the statistics, the situation masquerading as political comment, and it is simply there is slightly better than in the UK. The fact that unacceptable. there are schools in London, where we are now speaking, I have already touched on the issue of equating the that are protected by security personnel is simply Jewish community with the Israeli state. The European unacceptable. We live in a country of 64 million people, Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia has where we are concerned about the ability to integrate said that such an equation is a form of anti-Semitism, people entering this country from all parts of the world, and I am afraid it is becoming increasingly evident in yet we are almost accepting of the fact that somebody the debate that we have about the situation in the going to a Jewish school in London or Manchester middle east. It is crucial, therefore, to ensure that when needs to have a security guard on the premises. we are dealing with this issue, we highlight the fact that I have never visited such a school; indeed, I suspect there is a difference. I have been to Israel on numerous that I have less than a handful of individuals of Jewish occasions, and if I could say that even once on any of descent—British Jews—living in my constituency, so I my visits to Israel I came away with the view that have never witnessed such a thing. However, I have to everybody in Israel thought the same way about each tell the House that, as the father of five children, to turn and every issue, I would be lying, because I have never up to a Jewish secondary school in Amsterdam and see seen such a vibrant democracy, where people disagree a security guard outside was shocking. The fact that about anything and everything. Indeed, it could be many hon. Members in this House will understand that argued that one of the weaknesses of the Israeli state is situation does not make it acceptable. It is unacceptable that there is a willingness to argue and disagree about that the Jewish community, or any other community for everything, and they should certainly do something that matter, in this country or any other part of Europe about their proportional representation system, which should need to resort to having their schools, their allows every single view to be heard. synagogues or their churches protected. That is simply The idea that there is a single view being expressed by unacceptable. the people in Israel, and that that view is being supported To go to a country such as the Netherlands, which by every single person of Jewish descent in any other has a tradition of tolerance, and to hear half the members part of the world, is simply ludicrous, yet it is a concept of a group of 16 and 17-year-olds we met—my eldest that is constantly repeated by those who are son is 17—indicate that they saw no future for themselves irresponsible—to put it kindly—in the way that they are there was simply shocking. I have always viewed the trying to deal with the situation in the middle east. We Netherlands as a tolerant country, and as I have said, need to ensure that we always challenge that type of the figures for attacks on members of the Jewish community behaviour. in the Netherlands are actually better than they are in In the same way, I am absolutely fed up of hearing the UK. However, if half the sixth-formers in a Jewish about the so-called Jewish lobby. It is highlighted as school in Amsterdam say that they see no future for something extremely powerful that has the ability to themselves in Europe, then Europe has a lot to be change people’s minds in this place. Well, I saw no ashamed about. We really need to remember those evidence of the “Jewish lobby”being particularly successful youngsters and their lack of faith in their future in when there was a recent parliamentary debate about the Europe. recognition of Palestine. If the ever-powerful Jewish Finally, when we talk about anti-Semitism, it is also lobby was really that successful, I suspect that this important that we recognise that it is an issue that is House would not have voted for that motion, even with affecting people. We only have to look at the figures for only a minority of MPs taking part in the vote. When those individuals leaving France, Belgium and the we hear about this powerful Jewish lobby, I wonder how Netherlands and deciding to make a life for themselves much of it is in the imagination of those making the in either Israel or the US to know that we have a claims and what their motivation is for making those problem. We had thought that after the atrocities of the claims. I think there is a motivation, and unfortunately second world war, we might have learned our lesson; I it has a background in some attitudes that exist on the am afraid that we need to learn it all over again. European continent, which are simply unacceptable. In the same way, the constant effort to try to equate Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Another four hon. the state of Israel with apartheid South Africa is also Members are hoping to catch my eye. The wind-ups will leading to a climate in which the state of Israel and the begin at 3.40 pm, so I am sure that hon. Members can Jewish people are being demonised. There is obviously do the maths on that one. 263WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 264WH

3.8 pm Whether in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy or Spain, Jewish communities have reported an escalation Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to in threats, protests and violence against Jews. A 2012 speak in this debate, Mrs Main. I thank and congratulate survey of 6,000 Jews in eight European countries by the the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) on securing European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights found the debate and on the strong role he has taken as the that 66% of respondents believed that anti-Semitism in chairman of the all-party group. I also thank the other Europe was on the rise, and 76% said it had increased in Members who make a valuable contribution to that their country in the previous five years. group. Given those statistics, it is unsurprising to hear that The reason we are debating this issue today is because the French Interior Minister has vowed to make the the number of anti-Semitic incidents has risen, not only fight against anti-Semitism a national cause. We welcome in the UK but right across Europe. In fact, last week a his commitment, and we wait to see what the reaction new report commissioned by the Mayor of London will be and how successful he will be. His move was in revealed that 95% of hate crimes against faith groups in response to an incident involving a Jewish woman being the capital, which have surged by 23% this year compared raped and having her money stolen by her attacker, who with last year, were anti-Semitic. Quite clearly, therefore, allegedly claimed, “You Jews, you have all the money.” we have an issue that we need to address. That is a That disgraceful and brutal incident motivated a response worrying statistic indeed, and the apparent rise of anti- from the highest level of the French Government. Semitism is not only confined to the streets of London. In July, a rabbi was attacked by four Muslim teenagers When it comes to such dreadful stereotypes, a variety outside a Jewish boarding school in Gateshead. The of sports people have got into trouble recently for their police have investigated the incident and arrested them, racist, sectarian or anti-Semitic remarks. Liverpool striker and I hope prosecution is pending. In Belfast this Mario Balotelli, for example, gets into trouble fairly August, the windows of the city’s only synagogue were often, but this time he got into trouble for tweeting what smashed on two consecutive nights. I have had the he claims were supposed to be anti-racist remarks with pleasure of going to that synagogue for a service, although a touch of humour. Clearly, that is not the way to I have to say the seats were pretty hard—you would not promote anti-racism, at a time when the sport of football fall asleep in that congregation when the sermon was is continually working hard to eradicate racism. There being preached, I can tell you that. are many other examples. I mention those incidents because it is good to show It seems—figures would appear to back this theory—that our support whenever the opportunity is there, and I do anti-Semitism has increased since the conflict between that. However, although the number of Jewish people in Israel and Palestine intensified and received increased Belfast has decreased greatly over the years, some people media coverage. The Community Security Trust said it target them specifically. In the case I mentioned, they was aware of 302 anti-Semitic events in July, compared came one night and then came back the next night and with 59 in July 2013. It described the cases as did the same thing again. That is an example of the “reactions to this summer’s conflict between Israel and Hamas” issues we have in Northern Ireland. in Gaza. The charity also recorded about 150 anti-Semitic In Manchester, a Jewish cemetery was defaced with incidents in August—the third-highest monthly total on swastikas. We have also seen the outrageous and despicable record—and some of those incidents happened in Belfast. conduct of some of the unions in Northern Ireland, The July incidents ranged from abusive letters to British although I suspect the same has happened across the synagogues to threats, graffiti and damage to property. United Kingdom. In Belfast, they targeted specific There were also 21 violent assaults—it is not always supermarkets and supermarket chains, looking out for property that is targeted—although no one was, thank Jewish goods. They trashed the shelves and damaged the Lord, seriously injured, which is good news. the goods, causing bedlam during Saturday shopping. Such hate crimes—that is what they are—are not confined There is, however, overwhelming opposition among to the United Kingdom. In fact, when the right hon. British people to anti-Semitism. The debate has highlighted Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) took his new the incidents that have taken place, but we should also position as Chief Whip in September, he referred to highlight the excellent response from the British people. anti-Semitism as a “virus” spreading all over Europe. The silent majority—99.9% of people—are disgusted by what has happened and support the Jewish people’s The background notes to the debate, which I found right to have their own beliefs. Although people are out helpful, mention someone who was brought up in a attacks, a far greater number of people are disgusted boarding school as a young boy. Being the only Jew in and angered by such incidents and are determined to the school, he was a bit worried about what would stamp them out. For example, the all-party group against happen to him, but nothing happened, because of the anti-Semitism, with the support of the Parliamentary acceptance in Britain. However, he then refers to the Committee against Antisemitism, is now fully focused difference between then and now. When he was a child, on working with the Government and other partners to things were okay. He says he was comfortable with implement measures to send out the clearest of messages: things, but he continues: intolerance will no longer be acceptable. “And do you know what? Suddenly I’m not. Something is In August, thousands of people gathered outside the afoot. It is creeping and it is tentative, but it is definitely there. royal courts of justice at a meeting organised by the And it scares me.” Campaign against Antisemitism, a grass-roots group Those are the issues for many Jews across Europe and formed in response to the rise in attacks against Jews in the United Kingdom, who feel threatened by the rise of Britain and throughout Europe following the start of anti-Semitism across the world. the Gaza conflict. Signs in the crowd read “Zero tolerance 265WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 266WH

[Jim Shannon] others. Most of the men in the community have to go to synagogue at least three times a day to pray, and they for anti-Semites” and “Prosecute hate before it’s too are completely recognisable, so they have suffered all late”, and that is exactly what we in the House and the kinds of things. Government need to do: prosecute hate before it is too Essentially, however, members of the community have late. We must not tolerate any form of racism or anti- made a massive contribution. One—Councillor Joe Semitism, and we must come down hard on those who Lobenstein—is now getting on. He was the first ultra- commit these hate crimes. Orthodox member of any of the communities I mentioned to put himself forward for election. At the time, some of 3.15 pm the rabbis said “Don’t do that, because you’ll expose us.” However, he did, although I do not think he has Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): ever got the recognition he was due for the work he did It is a pleasure to serve under you, Mrs Main. I congratulate on behalf of the community. He struck up a relationship the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), the chair in those early days with the incoming Muslim community, of the all-party group, on introducing this timely debate and he taught me as a new councillor a lesson, when we and on his non-stop work on this issue. I also congratulate voted to support a planning application for the first big Danny Stone and others who nagged me intensely mosque in the area. Joe’s view was that one religious about it. community should support another. For part of my career, I was a local councillor in the I have always wanted to get Ministers—here is an London borough of Hackney.I represented the Springfield invite—to come to Cazenove road in Hackney on a ward in Stamford Hill, which is nearly 50% ultra-Orthodox, Friday to see thousands of religious Gujarati Muslims Haredi or strictly Orthodox—whatever we choose to pouring down one end to get into the mosque, and call it. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy thousands of religious ultra-Orthodox men going the (Guto Bebb) talked about the divisions and arguments other way, to go to synagogue. Never has there been a in Israel, but people should come to Stamford Hill if problem there, because there is a Jewish-Muslim council they want to see divisions and arguments. for the elders. It does not operate much, but particularly That was my introduction to a certain section of the when there are issues in the middle east it comes together Jewish community—it is now becoming a huge section to try to calm things down, and works for mutual of that community. It is perhaps pertinent to the debate benefit, usually on the latest synagogue or mosque that it is the only part of British Jewry that is visibly planning application, or whatever it is; I am sure that Jewish; its members are totally recognisable wherever ex-councillors will recognise that. they are—whether they are in their community in That community taught me a massive amount, but of Manchester, or in Hackney and Stamford Hill. Members course those people grew up with the assumption that of the community would regale me with stories about has been referred to, which is a terrible stain on European the 1950s, which is not so long ago, when Blackshirts civilisation: the acceptance, almost, that anti-Semitism would come down the streets on Saturdays, knowing will be there for ever. At the same time, its members full well that members of the community could not pick were extremely proud of the home that this country had up a telephone to ring for help or get on a bus to go for given them, and intensely patriotic. help, and would smash the cars in the road. That was There has been mention of the interesting statistics only 60 years ago. from the Community Security Trust, to whose work I The community had had some of the worst experiences. pay tribute. In 2013 it recorded 529 anti-Semitic incidents, Many were refugees in the 1930s. Interestingly, in terms which was an 18% decrease on 2012. One might therefore of the present debate on immigration, I once called on a talk about all the work that has been done by Governments couple in Tower Court—I remember it specifically because and Ministers of both parties, by the all-party group—both I had done some work for them, as a good local before my time and now—and by many people in the councillor would. I called round, as a good Conservative community, to deal with that terrible stain. This year local councillor would, to make sure they were voting people have said to me, “Obviously, the number of the right way, and, for the first time, they asked me in. incidents has gone up and up”, but as my hon. Friend When the husband stretched out his arm to invite me in, the Member for Aberconwy asked, why do we assume I saw a tattoo on it, and I suddenly realised what it was. that the issue in Israel should automatically reverberate I went in and met his wife. They were children— as anti-Semitic attacks in this country? Perhaps survivors—of the holocaust and the camps. They built unfortunately for the chairman of the all-party group, a family here and had grandchildren. They were very he has many years of work to do yet if people just proud of this country. I had come round because of the assume “That would happen, wouldn’t it?”. That is how vote without knowing the history of this couple. The ingrained a situation we are dealing with. husband told me he thought he might still be an illegal Hon. Members have talked about the new online immigrant, because when he came across to Britain in phenomena. At a meeting of the all-party group on 1945, the country had wanted bricklayers, but he had Islamophobia there was discussion of Facebook and actually been an apprentice jeweller under his father. He all the different ways of dealing with hate crime in that wondered, in a joking sense, whether he was still safe. context. I wondered what the impact of that was for However, the majority of that community have always anti-Semitism, although it is Twitter that has been wondered whether they are safe in this country. mentioned specifically in this debate. I take some My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Mr Scott) comfort from what the Home Secretary said to Jewish mentioned under-reporting, and I suspect there is massive News: under-reporting in that part of Stamford Hill by children “We’re very clear that if something is a crime offline it can be a going to the different schools and colleges, and by crime online.” 267WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 268WH

She added: have done, to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John “It’s necessary to make sure the right guidance is available for Mann) for his great leadership on the issue, to which we police and other authorities”. need always to return. It is something for which we As the chairman of the all-party group, the hon. Member hang our heads in shame, particularly when there is for Bassetlaw, asked, what prosecutions have there been? such a spike in the number of anti-Semitic incidents. What is happening? That is why the debate is extremely It is a given that we are against anti-Semitism, and pertinent. The thing that has emerged that most shocked many people would want to belong to a group that was me came out of some of the demonstrations about against it, but it is also important to address the issue of problems in the middle east; it was the phrase “Hitler what things we are for. Obviously, we are for proper was right”, which apparently then trended on Twitter. I respect for and treatment of Jewish people, but it is am not a Twitter user, Mrs Main, and you obviously more than that. This gets us to the heart of why it is know why I am not and do not want to be. right for the country, Parliament and the Government I sometimes say that when I had a proper job I was a to take a lead in tackling anti-Semitism: the thing that teacher. I taught history, and I remember huge debates we are for is human dignity. We know from history that about the introduction of the national curriculum for the litmus test for our valuing of our fellow human year 9 history, and about whether it was right to examine beings has, sadly, been our attitude to anti-Semitism, the history of the holocaust. As a history teacher I said which recurs over periods of years, and has recurred we should do it, and that we should not underestimate this year as well. We can show ourselves to be tackling children of that age. However, I remember my shock the issue of human dignity, and to be in favour of when half of my class of year 9s were in tears over the human dignity, in the way we deal with anti-Semitism. whole issue at the end of a class. That is either because I That is why it is important that as we take the lead on was a good teacher or because I was a bad teacher. I issues such as modern slavery, we do so also for human distinctly remember two girls saying, “We never knew dignity, by the way we deal with anti-Semitism. this happened, sir.” Other hon. Members have talked I am concerned about the fact that in recent times about the level of knowledge about the subject. Education there has been almost a double discrimination, or double is critical in giving the right historical context. I support anti-Semitism. It is not just the anti-Semitic words and the Government in maintaining the holocaust as part of actions, but the cause. The situation is almost worse the history curriculum. Children can deal with it. when the cause of the spike in the number of incidents Hon. Members have also mentioned the work of the is the Gaza conflict. The particular reason why I am Holocaust Memorial Day Trust in taking children to taking part in this debate is the things that have happened Auschwitz. When I was a history teacher I avoided in my constituency. Sadly, a brick was thrown at a schul going; I did not want it to be just a museum, but I did go during the Gaza conflict, and the Norwood charity with the trust three or four years ago, and, as others shop on Southgate High street was daubed in relation who have been there have found, the awful impact stays. to Gaza protests; a Jewish charity shop was targeted. I also want to mention the work of the Holocaust For the first time in my nine years in Parliament, Educational Trust, in particular in Lancaster and constituents have come to my surgery saying that the Fleetwood, now that I am its Member of Parliament. concern is so acute that they are concerned about their The Jewish population there is minimal, but I pay children wearing any insignia on their uniforms if they tribute to the work done there by an ex-Labour MP, go to school on a public bus, and about giving any Stanley Henig, from Lancaster university—and also to identification of their being Jewish people. It is appalling Liz Neat, from the National Coalition Building for that to be on their minds. They are also concerned Institute—to preserve the practice of marking Holocaust when their children go to the Southgate Asda or to memorial day every January. Tesco in Potters Bar—concerned both about the looks The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) given and the words said to them. Those incidents are mentioned that it is more important to support and not reported. I am concerned that that is taking place continue such ceremonies in constituencies without a and concerned and ashamed that there is such a climate significant Jewish population, particularly in the light of fear, but I want to take appropriate action, to ensure of the spike in anti-Semitism; that reminds us that the that we are doing all we can to counter that. That action stain is there, and may unfortunately remain for many a involves all of us—cross-party, cross-cultural, cross- long year. It would be pertinent this January to make faith—standing up against such incidents in a responsive, sure that Holocaust memorial day was observed throughout timely and meaningful way, because they affect us all, in the country, Jewish community or no Jewish community. terms of how we value human beings. That would be a clear statement of what we can, if we We should recognise history; indeed, we have made like, call British values. It would show that we recognise reference to it. When I heard about the incidents in my that the terrible scourge still exists, the stain that it has constituency, I was on holiday with my family in Normandy. put on our history, and that we are determined to We went to the cemeteries and saw the star of David continue the commemoration. I therefore commend the marking the grave of a Jewish person who died on work of the all-party group and the hon. Member for behalf of Britain and freedom, alongside a gravestone Bassetlaw, who brought the matter before the House. with a cross for a Christian soldier who died for the same freedoms. Those are the freedoms that we are 3.27 pm concerned about. We need to work on and be vigilant in tackling those issues. I welcome the Home Secretary’s Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is vigilance and leadership, and that of the Mayor of pleasure to take part in the debate, but as other hon. London and others, who are very much aware of the Members have said, it is always a shame that we have to issues; their attention has been drawn to them by colleagues have such a debate. I pay tribute, as other hon. Members here. 269WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 270WH

[Mr David Burrowes] was matched by a change in the level of correspondence, as people genuinely feared that society in London had I want to ensure that, from a definitional point of turned against them. view, we are getting it right. The European Monitoring There were swastikas on buildings—not just on Jewish Centre on Racism and Xenophobia’s definition of anti- buildings, such as synagogues, but on telephone boxes—and Semitism includes equating the actions of the state of general intimidation; youths were driving down Golders Israel with Jewish people as a race. It will be interesting Green road, winding down the windows shouting anti- to see whether the Minister recognises such a definition, Semitic abuse; and barbers elsewhere in London were because when debate includes references to “a Jewish refusing to serve a Jewish customer. We had not seen lobby”, “a powerful financial lobby” and indeed to such incidents in Europe since the rise of Hitler. I do Zionists, there is often, sadly, anti-Semitism behind it. not use that term lightly. These were comments made to That must cause us concern. me by my constituents. They felt that the clock had been The responses worry me as much as the actions. For turned back and that we had suddenly been transported example, the Sainsbury’s store in Holborn responded to back to Nazi Germany. the protest by clearing the shelves of kosher food. That was originally thought justifiable in order to deal with Dr Offord: My constituency borders that of my hon. antisocial concerns, but the store did not realise what it Friend, and I have experienced the same kind of problems was doing by responding with an anti-Semitic act. as he has. Is he aware of a local Jewish newspaper poll that concluded that 63% of our constituents no longer There are concerns about social media, too. Just this felt safe and were considering moving abroad as a result weekend there was an anti-Semitic tweet from a north of that fear? London branch of a political party. I will not attribute it, because it has since been suggested that it was not an official party branch tweet. It said: Mike Freer: My hon. Friend is right. Many of my constituents said that they were now actively considering “UKIP has evil money grabbing Jews…in their party”. emigrating. I hope that that view has passed now that The response to that tweet reveals a lot: the justification things have calmed down. However, that highlighted for it was that the person was upset about the Palestinian the genuine fear on the streets in my constituency. conflict. That was thought to be a justifiable excuse, but Of course, it was anti-Israel sentiment that masked that is unacceptable. That is another example of double anti-Semitism—this constant dialogue in mainstream anti-Semitic discrimination, and it is why, as we go into media that refused to differentiate between a Jew and an election mode, the report of the inquiry on electoral Israeli. That laziness seeped into an ugly discourse that conduct, for example, needs to be heeded; why we need fed anti-Semitism. One example of that in London is to hear the Minister say that the Equality and Human the disgraceful actions of the Tricycle Theatre, an art Rights Commission is actively providing local authorities organisation, which banned the Jewish film festival—not with the guidance that was promised in debate in the the Israeli film festival—because it disapproved of the other place; why the Electoral Commission needs to be actions of the Israeli Government. That same theatre active in ensuring that there is proper engagement with was happy to have a film festival funded by other political parties; why local authorities need to ensure countries involved in Government actions—internal that they are correcting false information; and why all conflicts or war with neighbours—that people disagreed political parties need to get to the minimum standard with, but it singled out the Jewish film festival. That is for disciplinary processes. blatant anti-Semitism, the likes of which we have not We need to get cross-party agreement, and we all seen on the streets of London, and I hope not to see it need to ensure that we support education and the again. Holocaust Educational Trust. Good work is being done I want to mention one final thing before drawing my by Near Neighbours, which is stepping up to the plate; remarks to a close, because I do not want to repeat all of us are involved because we are all near-neighbours; myself. In the demonstrations on the streets of London, I am, with my neighbours in my constituency. We need people were wandering around, legitimately protesting to stand shoulder to shoulder to make sure that we about the Gaza conflict, but waving placards saying, tackle anti-Semitism because we believe in human dignity. “Hitler was right”and “Death to the Jews”. My constituents were shocked because the police stood by and allowed those people to walk past. I have raised this with both 3.34 pm the Met and the Home Secretary and I understand that, operationally, the police are wary of wading in to lift Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I, those people out, for fear of causing a further disturbance. too, join colleagues in congratulating the hon. Member I understand and accept that. However, we need high-profile for Bassetlaw (John Mann), not just on securing the prosecutions—this is where I hope the Minister will be debate, but for his outstanding work chairing the APPG. able to talk to his colleagues in the Home Office—such Given that we are running out of time, I will try to keep as those after the riots in Tottenham. The community my comments brief. and the public need to see firm action from the police in In the streets of Finchley and Golders Green, which dealing with anti-Semitism, then people will start to feel has the largest Jewish community of any parliamentary safe. constituency, I have never seen or heard of fear like the I echo the words of the hon. Member for Bassetlaw: fear during the summer months. There is always a the work of the APPG, the cross-departmental work rumbling of incidents that concern my constituents, but and the bipartisan work of parties form a model. Clearly, this summer I have never seen such a palpable change in work still has to be done, but although the UK had sentiment on the streets of my constituency, and that problems, it did not have the same problems as France 271WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 272WH and Germany, and that is testament to the fact that The combined July and August 2014 figure of 543 what we are doing is having an effect. I hope that the incidents is higher than the entire total for 2013. I am Minister gives a commitment and says that we will told that of those incidents, just under half involved a continue to have the full support of this Government direct reference to the second world war and a third and whatever Government come after them. used holocaust-related language or imagery. It is nothing less than sickening that, 70 years on from the most shameful episode in European history, the holocaust is 3.39 pm being used as a tool to abuse and taunt the Jewish Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. community. The events of the second world war are Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), not being evoked in an attempt to create real fear and only on securing the debate, but on his tireless work on distress. this issue. Many of the anti-Semitic incidents recorded in July Where I come from and represent has a long, proud and August took place on social media channels, and tradition of fighting racism and fascism and condemning that continues today. The use of social media and the anti-Semitic behaviour in all its forms. It is a tragedy internet more widely has huge potential for good. It that despite our understanding of the consequences of allows for communication and education on a scale anti-Semitism, we are still having to debate how to unimaginable just a generation ago, but it also allows tackle it in communities today. It shocks me that the for the spread of falsehoods, lies, myths and rumours latest manifestations of virulent and hateful anti-Semitism that are designed to deceive. As we have seen, social use the imagery of the holocaust to denigrate, abuse media sites can provide a platform for abhorrent views and persecute. and levels of abuse that would simply not be acceptable This summer we saw terrible scenes across Europe. in normal public life. An anti-Jewish riot took place in the suburb of Sarcelles, The recent vitriol, harassment and abuse directed at just outside Paris. What began as a protest turned into a my hon. Friends the Members for Liverpool, Wavertree rampage. Cars and waste bins were set ablaze, several (Luciana Berger) and for Bassetlaw by far right extremists Jewish-owned businesses were torched and a Molotov and white supremacists is completely repugnant. I know cocktail was thrown at a synagogue. As the rioters that all Members unequivocally condemn it. Sadly, rampaged through Sarcelles, witnesses described hearing there is a perception in some quarters that anti-Semitism the chant, “Hitler for President.” In the same month in on social media is less serious than anti-Semitism on the Germany, Molotov cocktails were thrown into the Bergische street. I dispute that, as do others. On social media, it is synagogue in Wuppertal, a place of worship that had more permanent and more widely viewed and distributed. previously been destroyed on Kristallnacht. That was In many ways, it can be much more personal and more not an isolated incident. An elderly Jewish man was real, because it is beamed in, directly infiltrating victims’ beaten up at a pro-Israel rally in Hamburg. Bottles were phones, homes and computers, and can be shared with thrown through the window of an anti-Semitism millions of people. campaigner’s house in Frankfurt. In several German The previous Labour Government passed laws to cities, anti-Israel protests sparked by the latest Gaza stop the incitement of racial hatred. Those laws need to conflict included anti-Semitic chanting. Dieter Graumann, be enforced to the fullest possible extent by the police president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, and the Crown Prosecution Service. The major social said: networks, Facebook and Twitter, have a responsibility “These are the worst times since the Nazi era.” to do much more given the platform they provide for Meanwhile, far right parties such as Greece’s Golden users. I was encouraged to hear that Facebook now sees Dawn and Hungary’s Jobbik seem to have gained a the importance of tackling cyber-bullying and empowering foothold in European politics. We cannot allow a revived others to report cyber-abuse, but it was disappointing to anti-Semitism or a base fascist narrative to gain credence hear that when Members from this House met with and acceptance once more on our continent. Twitter last month, its representatives likened anti-Semitic Let me be absolutely clear: there is never any justification tweets to hearing an offensive conversation in the street, for anti-Semitism or racism in any form or against any where it is gone as soon as it is passed. That is simply group or individual. Many will take exception to the not true. On so many levels, it is a fallacious argument. actions of the state of Israel—I, too, have been vocal Clearly, social networks need to do more—first to about the behaviour of the Israeli state—but that is not, enforce their own existing rules and secondly to ensure cannot and must not be seen as a justification for they are equipped to deal with hate and prejudice in anti-Semitism, just as the conflicts that inflame the the constantly evolving sphere of technology and middle east, of which we have seen manifestations at communications. The Community Security Trust has home, cannot and must not be used as an excuse for issued helpful guidance on combating anti-Semitism on Islamophobia. social media and how to report hatred. It sets out the Although I have mentioned violence on mainland four important steps of reporting all hate crime to the Europe, Britain was unfortunately not immune from police; reporting all anti-Semitic hate crime to the CST; the summer’s upswing in anti-Semitism. The Community collecting evidence; and, finally, reporting incidents directly Security Trust, which does excellent work on behalf of to the social media site. I encourage all those who Britain’s diverse and vibrant Jewish community, as well experience or witness anti-Semitic incidents or other as on community cohesion per se, recorded 314 anti-Semitic racist incidents to follow the trust’s advice. incidents in July in the UK. That is the highest monthly We know that hate crime develops from dislocation total on record. A further 229 incidents were recorded and dissonance in our communities, so as well as in August. To put that in context, the July total surpasses confronting hate crime when it appears, we must work the 307 incidents recorded in the previous six months. together to fight its causes. We must tackle divisions 273WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 274WH

[Lyn Brown] continue to be singled out for anti-Semitic abuse. Whether from the far left or the far right—an abhorrent anti-Semitic and silos within our communities and prevent the spread streak goes through both extremes of British politics— of ignorance and fear, but we must recognise just how or from misguided individuals who happen to be complex and multifaceted the issues are and that they Muslim, who pervert the true meaning of Islam when straddle a number of Departments. they attack British Jews, all such attacks should be I offer my thanks to every Member who has contributed condemned. to this excellent debate. Clearly more needs to be done During the summer, when the Gaza crisis was at its to tackle the most persistent, baseless and irrational height, the Community Security Trust, another group prejudice. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw with which I have an important relationship, collated knows that better than most, and his efforts to ensure some shocking statistics, showing that 543 anti-Semitic accountability and decency within our society are to be incidents were recorded in July and August, although I applauded and supported. The issues raised in today’s suspect that that is the tip of the iceberg and not the full debate need to be looked at carefully, and I am sure that picture. I met the CST in August, returning to London the Minister will address those important points when especially for that meeting, and immediately put out a he responds. strong statement of support to the Jewish community together with other Ministers. I wrote to relevant Government colleagues in the Home Office and the 3.47 pm Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—because TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities of the various issues raised about campuses and safety and Local Government (Stephen Williams): Good afternoon, for students about to arrive at university—and to the Mrs Main. I think every Member who has spoken has, Secretaries of State for Scotland and for Wales. As my as is the normal courtesy, congratulated the hon. Member hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders for Bassetlaw (John Mann) on securing this debate. I Green and others have mentioned, our fellow citizens thank him for securing the debate and giving us all the are feeling a deep anxiety that has not been experienced opportunity to make some important and powerful for some time. It is right that we continue to be vigilant remarks and to put them on the record, so that they can and work with all relevant groups to try to allay those be read by constituents and people who are not constituents fears. and be reported in the media. It is important that We have asked the national policing lead on hate Parliament speaks with one voice. As the shadow Minister crime to work with public order leads to consider how rightly said, anti-Semitism is wrong, wrong, wrong in arrests and charges can be clearly communicated and every case. There is never an excuse for it. publicised by police forces to provide reassurance to I thank the hon. Member for Bassetlaw for his chairmanship local communities that criminal acts will be prosecuted. of the all-party group against anti-Semitism. That point Following a rise in anti-Semitic daubings on private and was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley public property, the Secretary of State for Communities and Golders Green (Mike Freer), who spoke powerfully and Local Government and David Delew of the CST on behalf of his constituents, and I echo it. I value my wrote to all local authorities in England, reminding relationship with the hon. Member for Bassetlaw in the them of the importance of removing offensive graffiti role I discharge on behalf of the Government. I can and reporting it to the police. confirm that all the recommendations made originally Despite the events over the summer, data commissioned to the previous Government in 2006 by the all-party by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights group against anti-Semitism have been met, and he said in 2012 show that levels of anti-Semitism in the UK are much the same. The report made 35 recommendations, significantly lower than in other western European countries. and a document is being prepared to draw together and The shadow Minister referred to events in other European set out all that the Government have done on them, as countries, and it is only a matter of relative comfort that the final response to that important piece of work. The anti-Semitism in Britain is not as prevalent as it is in intention is for something to be published shortly. The some other countries. We still have important work all-party group is looking into the recent upsurge of to do. anti-Semitism as a result of events in Gaza. There will no doubt be further recommendations that we will have Jim Shannon: As has been illustrated by the contributions to take on board and respond to in time. of others, anti-Semitic attacks have taken place across We also continue to hold quarterly meetings of the the entire United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland. cross-Government working group on addressing anti- Has the Minister had any discussions with the Northern Semitism, which is mainly made up of officials. I thank Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh the hon. Member for Bassetlaw for the generous tribute Assembly to co-ordinate a plan? Many of those involved he made to various officials both in my Department in such attacks have connections across the whole United and elsewhere, in particular Sally, who is with us today Kingdom. Groups in London are connected to groups and who provides me with good advice. I attended the in Belfast, and groups in Glasgow have connections most recent meeting of the group, as did the Chief with those in Cardiff. Rabbi, and we both spoke to its members. This important group, which brings together various Departments, will Stephen Williams: As I just said, after the meeting monitor further progress and implementation of the with the CST, because some of its concerns were about commitments made by Ministers right across Government. Cardiff and Glasgow, we communicated with the devolved While much progress has been made since the 2006 Administrations via the Secretaries of State for Scotland report, the work is sadly never complete, as many have and for Wales. No particular concerns were raised about said. It is shocking and offensive that British Jews Northern Ireland at the meeting, but if the hon. Gentleman 275WH Anti-Semitism9 DECEMBER 2014 Anti-Semitism 276WH or the CST wants to draw particular problems to our In the time remaining, I want to refer to some other attention, we will of course co-ordinate a response with Government initiatives. The Department for Education the devolved Assemblies and Governments. has confirmed funding of just over £2 million for 2014-15 It is also important that all initiatives are accompanied and going forward for providing security at Jewish free by a robust communications strategy that reassures the schools in England as part of the school security grant. public that those who commit hate crimes will be punished My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto with the full force of the law. Bebb) said that he was shocked to discover that it was needed—as, indeed, was I. He also said that we all have Having said all that, many Jewish individuals and a responsibility as parliamentarians to consider the organisations have been singled out for anti-Semitic language that we use, and I endorse that remark. abuse via social media, as the shadow Minister said. Various hon. Members have also mentioned our colleague Since May 2010, the Government have excluded 153 the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana people from the United Kingdom, including 61 exclusions Berger). From my conversations with her, I know that on national security grounds, 15 of which were made in she has been comforted by supportive telephone calls 2014. The Department for Communities and Local from and encounters with hon. Members. Government and the Ministry of Justice have continued In response to ongoing concerns about the impact of to the support the hate crime web facility, True Vision, controversial external speakers creating an atmosphere which collates hate crime statistics. We have also funded that leaves many students feeling uncomfortable, Universities the Society of Editors to produce good practice for UK has published guidelines entitled “External speakers online moderation of comments made on websites. My in higher education institutions”. This is an area of hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South concern to many Jewish societies on campuses, and we West (Paul Uppal) mentioned holocaust education, and want to work with leaders in this area. It is down to all the Government give important support both to the of us who have universities in our constituencies to Holocaust Education Trust and to the Holocaust Memorial ensure that we have a good relationship with the Jewish Trust. societies at those universities, which I certainly do at Bristol. I will end by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) for Twitter has been mentioned several times today and mentioning his experiences in Hackney. I appreciate his has rightly come in for some strong condemnation from invite, but I went to the Cazenove ward last week and colleagues. It is not necessarily for the Government to visited both the Orthodox Jewish school and the Muslim-led tell Twitter or Facebook what they should be taking community centre. I was incredibly impressed by the down from their sites, but those remarks were made on long-term commitment to leadership shown by Councillor the record and will appear in Hansard, andIamhappy Ian Sharer and Councillor Akhoon, who happen to be to join the shadow Minister and everyone else who has Liberal Democrats. Community cohesion does not happen said that such organisations have a responsibility to by accident. All of us, whatever our party, are in positions their users to look at the content that is being published of leadership and should lead by example and bring via their means of communication. They are not responsible people together. That has happened in a microcosm in for what people say, but they are responsible for that ward, where tensions have dissolved because people disseminating it, which is the distinction that I will have worked together. draw. 277WH 9 DECEMBER 2014 Secondary Education (Skelmersdale) 278WH

Secondary Education (Skelmersdale) budgets, but they have been given time and support while addressing the financial position. This is the first year in which Glenburn has had a deficit, but no real 4pm help has been available. Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): It is a real That action is required is accepted, but the nature of pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, the action being considered by Lancashire county council for this debate on the future of education provision in is opposed. The council’s approach to reorganising Skelmersdale. secondary school provision in Skelmersdale is High-quality education unlocks choice and opportunity fundamentally flawed. Proposed provision has the potential for our children and young people. We strive for the best to fail present and future school pupils of Skelmersdale education that we can possibly get for them. Skelmersdale unless a different course of action is taken. The closure is a town with a population of 36,000. Secondary of Glenburn sports college simply appears to be the education provision consists of one Catholic high school cheapest and easiest option; it is not necessarily the and two non-faith high schools. Lancashire county right option. I believe that it is not the right option. council is consulting on the possible closure of Glenburn Falling pupil numbers in Skelmersdale and throughout sports college, which is one of the two non-faith schools West Lancashire have resulted in the need to reduce the and the only school located in the town centre. The number of school places. What is shocking is that under proposal is for a phased closure of the school by 31 August successive and different administrations at county hall, 2016 and for pupils to be offered a guaranteed place at the education authority has failed to deal with the the other non-faith school, Lathom high school. impending situation, to deliver a proper structural solution Glenburn faces possible closure for several reasons. It to secondary education provision in Skelmersdale or to has only 850 pupils on its roll, and numbers have been address the quality of that education provision. Of the falling for several years. The school budget this year fell 2,600 children of secondary school age, some 650 are into deficit, in part because of the falling numbers on educated outside Skelmersdale. That level of outward roll. Attainment is below the national floor target. migration every day prompts the question of why parents Added to that, the school is in special measures, and we choose to send their children to other high schools in await the outcome of the most recent Ofsted inspection West Lancashire on such a scale. It cannot be a surprise on 25 and 26 November. to those who are supposed to have been looking after No one is ignoring that situation, but let us place those pupils and the level of education in Skelmersdale Glenburn sports college in the appropriate context. over the years. Education professionals tell me that the school’s profile It is recognised that Skelmersdale can support only is disproportionately skewed towards the lower ability one non-faith high school, but that is where the county levels, which means that reaching the required national council’s approach is fundamentally flawed. Lathom floor target attainment levels will always be a challenge. high school, the receiving school, also has a falling roll. Lancashire county council’s own report states that In fact, as the education authority acknowledges, in two “Glenburn Sports College has more than twice as many pupils years’ time Lathom is likely to be in a similar situation from disadvantaged backgrounds than any of its neighbouring to Glenburn, with about 450 pupils on roll. schools.” The proposed closure of Glenburn only works, therefore, Furthermore, in the Ofsted inspection report of March if a significant number of its pupils transfer to Lathom 2014, we find: high school. If they do not, the viability of Lathom will “The proportion of students who are supported at school become questionable in two years or so. The county has action is much higher than average…The proportion of students already acknowledged that it got its sums wrong when it known to be eligible for support through the pupil premium is excluded Up Holland high school from the calculations. much higher than average.” If Glenburn parents choose to send their children to Glenburn sports college’s catchment area draws children schools other than Lathom, it is not inconceivable that from some of the most deprived wards in the country. I Skelmersdale could be without a non-faith school within hear from parents and pupils, however, that Glenburn three or four years. provides caring, emotional and pastoral support to Allied to that, the Minister knows that if a school is create a positive environment for many children, including closed, it is a requirement that pupils go to a better those who have been turned away by other schools and performing school. Lathom high school, however, is a those from vulnerable homes with disruptive family school requiring improvement. Is that good enough for lives, for whom school is their safest and calmest place. him? Lathom faces its own challenges to improve Children at the higher ability levels are also supported performance. In fact, had the authority acted in previous by Glenburn to achieve and to reach their exam results years on numbers or finance, Lathom might have been targets, and they have done well. the school under threat. The school faces attainment and finance challenges, Imagine trying to integrate pupils from Glenburn but it is important to understand the context in which it into Lathom high school while at the same time addressing operates. Lancashire county council appears to have existing performance challenges. Then add to the mix been somewhat opportunistic in the timing of its decision moving pupils from a town-centre school to a school to deal with secondary education provision in Skelmersdale. right on the edge of town. The Minister should bear in Parents are angry that the county council does not mind that Skelmersdale is a new town, built on Radburn appear to have provided the support needed since Glenburn principles, with a labyrinth of subways instead of pavements. was placed in special measures, nor has it been given the Children will face a 45-minute walk each way, with no time to improve its performance or for the intervention identifiable safe routes, and many will have to walk to in years 7, 8 and 9 to show in the attainment levels. school because bus fares will be prohibitive in price for Other schools in the county have also faced deficit some Skelmersdale families, while other children will 279WH Secondary Education (Skelmersdale)9 DECEMBER 2014 Secondary Education (Skelmersdale) 280WH have to walk if they miss the school bus, because the Department for Education must to work together. We school is not on a bus route. Closing Glenburn will also need time to properly consider how best to serve the place uncertainty on the relatively new and popular interests of Skelmersdale school children now and in community sports facilities, which have hosted many the future. Perhaps the answer is to build a new school— groups and users since the borough council demolished preferably on a town centre site so the children can the one and only sports centre and failed to provide a actually get to school—but, whatever the decision, we replacement. need to invest in the future of those children, and not run away or choose the quickest and easiest option. We Some Glenburn parents are already seeking secondary cannot allow education bosses, whether in county hall school places other than at Lathom. That is happening or Whitehall, to gamble with the future of the children now. I have had reports of parents of Lathom high in Skelmersdale simply because it is the easy option. school pupils seeking to remove their children from the school following the announcement of the consultation I am pleased to have secured this debate. When the and the proposed solution. Even before a decision is Minister wrote to me on 3 December, he declined to made, the logic of moving Glenburn pupils into Lathom meet me because education provision, apparently, is high school to prop up its falling roll is starting to nothing to do with the Department for Education. My crumble. constituents—those parents—do not understand that for one minute. The lack of accountability in the education The proposed solution is fundamentally flawed, just system adds to the confusion and lack of trust when as the process for making the decision is fundamentally tough decisions have to be made. flawed. From the outset, the management of the announcement and of the consultation process has not I come to the nub of the issue. The Department for built trust and confidence. In fact, it has nurtured Education says that the decision must be made locally, distrust and cynicism among parents. I will give a few but the local authority tells me that it must act as examples of why parents are not filled with confidence directed by the Department for Education. The parents about the process, beginning with the announcement of and I were told that the governors decided to pursue the the consultation. It just so happened that the consultation closure option, but I was also told that they were on the possible closure was announced when parents presented with a fait accompli and had no real choice were choosing their preferred school options, which because of the pressure from the LEA and the Department made them think twice about making Glenburn their for Education. I have made freedom of information No. 1 choice. There was an Ofsted inspection right in requests for much of that information, but I am still the middle of the consultation period. Competitor schools waiting. If I carry on waiting, my requests will end up actually took out advertisements in the local newspaper with the Information Commissioner. Somebody is not after the options closing date, hoping to sweep up the telling the truth. children from Glenburn. I have heard reports that county I have raced through my argument to try to get in as council officers told parents at the consultation hearings, much as I can, but I will end on a simple message to all to which people could go only if they made an appointment, the participants in this farce: I believe they are all that they would not be undertaking the consultation if responsible and accountable. My constituents and I are the decision to close the school had not already been angry, and the pupils are upset. I cannot believe that made—I paraphrase, but that is what the parents this is in the best interests of pupils. Education is about understood that they said. Not enough consultation helping pupils to be the very best they can be. It is often books were made available to primary schools, families referred to as value-added, but what value is added by and the wider community. playing pass the parcel with children’s lives? This is There were only four questions in the consultation about their future, which is the only one they have got. document. It asked the consultees, first, for their category; We need some investment from the county, the Department secondly, for their postcode; thirdly, whether they agreed for Education, the governors and the school. Everybody or disagreed; and, fourthly, the reasons for their view. It must get together to invest in those children. Do it now, was difficult to get the council cabinet member for otherwise a whole generation will be lost, and that is not education to meet the parents. When he eventually met right or fair. 20 of them, he told them that they would have to come forward with alternative proposals for future school provision if they wanted to stop the county council 4.15 pm proposal. That was not stated explicitly anywhere in the consultation document, so the parents did not know The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): It is a that they could offer a different solution. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mrs Main. I congratulate the hon. Member for West Lancashire I understand—this is a recent development; in fact, I (Rosie Cooper) on securing this important debate. heard about it only today—that the concerns about the I fully accept that the proposed closure of a school transport, which I have mentioned and which were can cause great concern among the pupils who attend raised during the consultation, might delay the decision the school, their parents and the surrounding community, from March to late spring or early summer. I want the so I fully understand why the hon. Lady has raised this Minister to understand that the decision, which came issue today. She set out her concerns extremely clearly. I out of the blue, has caused great instability, has affected will make some broad opening comments about the children’s health and well-being in some cases, and has issues that she raised, then I will explain the process that increased the pressure on staff. we have to go through and the opportunities that there I say to the governing body, the local education are to challenge the closure. I will finish by commenting authority and the Minister that we need a pause. The on the situation at Glenburn and responding to some of governing body, the local education authority and the the hon. Lady’s points. 281WH Secondary Education (Skelmersdale)9 DECEMBER 2014 Secondary Education (Skelmersdale) 282WH

[Mr David Laws] to make a decision on whether to support or challenge the closure—departmental guidance sets out the minimum Through statutory guidance and law, the Department that should be included. The proposal should be accessible has set out the long-established process that a local to the whole community, so it should be set out in plain authority must follow when it proposes a school closure. English. That guidance and legislation clearly state that all decisions The third stage is representation. Once the proposals must be taken locally to allow those directly affected by have been published, a four-week statutory consultation the proposals to feed in their comments, and to ensure or representation period follows, during which comments that they are properly considered during the decision- on the proposals can be made. Anyone can submit making process. The Government’s role is to agree and comments, which can be objections as well as expressions set national policy. We then allow local communities to of support. The consultation period is a formal opportunity decide how best to implement that policy. That approach for individuals and organisations to express their views allows local communities the freedom to develop the about the proposals and ensure that they will be taken school system to best meet local needs. I can confirm into account by the decision makers. The consultation that the Department for Education has so far received period must not be altered—for example, it cannot be no representations from the local authority in Lancashire shortened or extended to fit in with scheduled meetings, about this closure. or to take school holidays into account. Every effort During this Parliament, we have invested more than should be made during the consultation period to advise £5 billion to help to create much-needed school places. stakeholders of when the notice is likely to be published. As a result, last year there were more than 250,000 more The fourth stage is the decision. All decisions relating places than there were at the 2010 general election. to school closures are taken locally by the local authority Ensuring that every child is able to attend a good or or, in very limited circumstances, by the schools adjudicator, outstanding school in their local area is at the heart of in order to allow those directly affected by the proposals the Government’s comprehensive programme of reform to feed into the process at a local level. That way, of the school system. In Lancashire, that has meant that decisions are taken by people who really understand the the allocation for basic need funding, which was local area. If the local authority fails to decide proposals £23.4 million between 2007 and 2011, increased to within two months of the end of the representation £65.4 million in the current Parliament, and a further period, they must forward proposals to the schools £17.4 million has been allocated for 2015 to 2017. adjudicator for decision. They must forward the proposals, The School Organisation (Establishment and including any received representations, within one week Discontinuance of Schools) (England) Regulations 2013 from the end of the two-month period. The Department set out the process local authorities must follow when does not prescribe the process by which a local authority proposing to close a school. To be clear, the Department carries out its decision-making function; however, decision for Education has no direct role in the proposals to makers must have regard to the statutory guidance close a maintained school. It is a local process to allow when making a decision. All decisions must include local areas to make the right decisions in the light of all reasons for the decision—irrespective of whether the the relevant facts. proposals were rejected or approved—which should In January, the Department for Education published indicate the main factors and criteria for the decision. new guidance for maintained schools and academies The fifth and final stage is implementation. There is that seek to make changes to their size and characteristics. no maximum limit on the time between the publication Following national consultation, the Department set of a proposal and its proposed date of implementation, out in the guidance a new fast-track process for schools but the circumstances may change significantly if too seeking to make certain changes—for example, expanding long a period elapses. In general, the implementation their premises or altering their age range by up to two date for the proposals, which is stated in the statutory years—without following the full statutory process. The notice, should be within three years of their publication. one area that the revised guidance did not speed up was Proposers may be expected to show good reason if they the proposed closure of a school. Ministers were clear propose a longer time scale. I thought that the hon. that that is always such an important decision that no Lady would find it useful for those regulations to be put fast-track approach should be available. It is vitally clearly on the record. If she has any questions about the important that all the elements of that type of proposal details, our officials would be happy to give her more are carefully considered and analysed. Effective engagement guidance. with all the bodies that would be affected by the proposals Let me turn to the particular case of Glenburn sports should not be rushed through. college. Lancashire county council launched a consultation There are five stages to the statutory process for a on its proposed closure on 3 November, and that proposed school closure, which I will set out so that the consultation is due to close on 14 December. Again, I hon. Lady is clear about what the local authority will stress that it is a live issue and that no final decision has have to do. The first stage is consultation. The local been taken. The authority is under a duty to listen and authority or governing body must carry out preliminary, respond to all the issues and concerns that are raised. It informal consultations with interested parties to consider must ensure that any decision that it reaches addresses a range of options, including closure. all the points that the consultation will inevitably raise, The second stage is the publication of the statutory including some of the matters that the hon. Lady proposals. The school or local authority must publish mentioned. the full copy of the proposal on its website, and a As I have already stated, once the stages of consultation, notification must be posted in a local newspaper and at publication and representation have been completed, all the entrances to the school. A statutory proposal the local authority has a two-month window in which must contain sufficient information for interested parties to make a final decision. Should the process take longer 283WH Secondary Education (Skelmersdale)9 DECEMBER 2014 Secondary Education (Skelmersdale) 284WH than that, the role of decision-maker will be passed to follows: in 2010, 38% of young people achieved five A* the schools adjudicator. I understand that Glenburn is a to C GCSEs, including English and maths; in 2011, that foundation school; as such, should the local authority figure fell to 29%; in 2012, it rose to 39%; and, in 2013, decide to close it, the college’s governing body will have the figure was 41%. The data for 2014 will be released the right of appeal. Such an appeal would be heard by the Department shortly, following appropriate checks. by the independent schools adjudicator. It would be up However, in spite of the hon. Lady’s comments about to the adjudicator to review the statutory process that the proportion of disadvantaged pupils in the local the authority had followed, as well as to examine the community, which is a relevant consideration, I can say accuracy of the related information that the local authority that, until now, the progress of disadvantaged pupils had published in support of its case, including its impact has been disappointing, which is no doubt why Ofsted on the final decision. While demonstrating transparency, has had concerns about the school. the system underlines that the proposal, decision-making Like other schools in the area, Glenburn has experienced and appeals processes are all independent of the a decline in pupil numbers between the 2005-06 and Department. It also demonstrates the levels of checks 2013-14 academic years. While some schools, such as and balances that we have deliberately built into the Up Holland high school, have experienced a fall in system to allow schools and their communities to have pupil numbers of about 25%, Glenburn has experienced their voices heard and to be an essential element of the a particularly steep decline in pupil numbers, as the final decision. hon. Lady will know, of 54% over that time, which is no Local authorities are under a statutory duty to ensure doubt one reason why the local authority is concerned. that there are sufficient primary and secondary school Nevertheless, none of those issues and factors, taken places for all the children living in their area. In doing either individually or together, should mean that the so, they should ensure that they achieve best value for school’s closure should be considered a foregone conclusion. money to guarantee the best use of resources. To enable Statutory guidance delivers a clear duty on local authorities them to achieve that, local authorities are not only to ensure that such proposals are carried out in a clear under a duty to secure new school provision via the and transparent way. Local authorities must be measured academy presumption when facing a shortage, but in their conduct in order to ensure that all those affected sometimes face the hard reality of a potential closure are properly heard and able to voice their concerns. when a school may be surplus to requirements. That I would urge all the students and families affected by may be because of a lack of local demand for places, or the proposals to respond fully to the local authority’s because a school simply may not be delivering the consultation—as I mentioned earlier, there are still a required quality of education over a sustained period. number of days before it closes. It is only through It is important that Lancashire county council diligently engaging with that locally driven process that pupils, follows all the stages of the statutory process. It has parents and the local community can ensure that their sought to assure the Department that that is the case. views are properly taken into consideration and have an As reflected by the hon. Lady’s comments, some of the effect on the decision-making process. I am grateful to difficulties experienced by Glenburn sports college over the hon. Lady for raising her concerns about the proposed recent years are a matter of public record, including closure of the school and securing today’s debate on historical underperformance in GCSE attainment and these important issues. I hope that I have explained to a significant reduction in demand for school places her the limits of what the Department can and cannot from the local community, as well as being placed in do, as well as the rules within which the local authority special measures following an Ofsted inspection in March must operate. I am sure that her concerns have been this year. Glenburn’s recent performance at GCSE is as heard by both her constituents and the local authority. 285WH 9 DECEMBER 2014 Power Cuts (North Finchley) 286WH

Power Cuts (North Finchley) the builders go in and the electricians assess the supply and say, “Yes, Mr Retailer, the power supply to your 4.29 pm unit can cope,” what is missed is the cumulative effect of changes to the connections of that shop and neighbouring Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): It is shops. Initially, the supply network simply absorbs the a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship yet again increased demand, but that strains the existing, and this afternoon, Mrs Main. I welcome my hon. Friend probably old, infrastructure. the Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace), The weakness in the system is that change-of-use who is acting in locus ministries, if I have got my Latin permissions at the planning authority, which I appreciate correct. fall under the remit of the Department for Communities I will give a little background on the situation that and Local Government and not the Department of has affected businesses and homes in and around High Energy and Climate Change, are not automatically fed road, North Finchley. During the past year there have to the network providers so that they can monitor and been a series of power cuts: on 4 September, 16 and plan their infrastructure investment and ensure that 18 October and 16, 18, 23 and 24 December 2013; and they can cope with such changes in electricity usage. on 6 and 7 January and 13 and 14 November 2014, just Perhaps the Minister could arrange that co-ordination a few weeks ago. I make the point of listing those power with colleagues across Government, so that a system to cuts to stress the ongoing impact and disruption not monitor cumulative impact is put in place. just to householders but to businesses in North Finchley. Finally, there is the issue of compensation, which I In particular, last December, in the run-up to Christmas— have raised with both UK Power Networks and Ofgem. the busiest part of the year—businesses struggled to UK Power Networks is helpful, but it is firm that it is recover the customers and profits that they lost because bound by the regulations. Ofgem, while sympathetic, their shops were closed in that period. says that it holds the power suppliers’ feet to the fire A series of issues has caused the power cuts; one through its internal mechanisms, and that it cannot be problem has cascaded into another. First, in September held responsible for all the consequential losses that the last year, the outages were caused by water ingress into traders and householders incur through a series of a UK Power Networks box, which meant that, quite power cuts. reasonably, the current had to be isolated on safety The current arrangements do not provide adequate grounds. The power then had to be redirected to the compensation to householders or businesses, nor do I remaining circuits, but because those circuits were old, believe that they hold the infrastructure providers’ and that led to the October outages and the first two outages energy suppliers’ feet to the fire. A householder receives in December, which were the result of power redirected only £54 and a business £108 in compensation. That to the neighbouring circuits overloading the cables: might be bearable if that were per power cut, but it is they could not cope and they failed. not. That compensation is payable only when there have Just before Christmas last year, the low-voltage board been power cuts of at least three hours on four or more of the main substation that supplied the circuits failed, occasions in any 12-month period. A business therefore which caused yet more outages. That problem reoccurred has to be interrupted for a minimum of 12 hours before in January this year. Then, in mid-November—just a it gets its £108, which is £9 an hour. That is hardly few weeks ago—the insulation on the cables supplying compensation. this part of North Finchley failed yet again. Even though compensation is to increase in April to I want to put on record that UK Power Networks has £150, that is still only £12.50 an hour. That is not been as helpful as it can be. I have met with its officials compensation; it is barely a gesture. A restaurant that on a regular basis and they did bring forward a £70,000 has 12 power cuts of only two hours could lose 12 lunch investment to remedy the issue. The ducting for the times but get nothing. I ask the Department to consider cables to this part of North Finchley has been replaced, instructing Ofgem—or to ask it, if it cannot instruct—to the substation has been upgraded, and next week the replace the compensation thresholds with a scheme that cables will be replaced through the new ducting. Barnet pays out for each power cut, rather than having that council has also been helpful in waiving the usual unreasonably high bar. A greater financial penalty may restrictions that prevent major works in the Christmas result in faster repairs and investment in the network’s period so that that can be undertaken in an effort to resilience. I have a background in business, where we ensure no repeat of last Christmas’ loss of business. always work to the motto: “If you grab people by the Although the repair and upgrade programme has budgets, their minds will follow.” taken more than 12 months, we seem to be on the brink In conclusion, we need to join up the change-of-use of having a—hopefully—permanent solution in place. approvals so that increased energy demand is monitored. However, the power cuts that occurred in the past year We also need a new compensation scheme that treats or so have highlighted a couple of weaknesses in how customers fairly and incentivises the power companies the electricity is supplied and how customers are dealt to invest in a resilient supply network. with in such events. One of the factors that contributed to the failure of 4.38 pm the cables and the failure of the low-voltage board was increased demand. We have all seen the retail proposition Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): changing: traditional shops, such as clothes shops and May I say what a delight it is to serve under your newsagents that are relatively low power users, have chairmanship, Mrs Main? I congratulate my hon. Friend been replaced with cafés and restaurants. If such shops the Member for Finchley and Golders Green (Mike become restaurants, their power usage profile will be Freer) on securing the debate. I know from my constituency very different. Although the change of use goes through, postbag how important it is for businesses to be able to 287WH Power Cuts (North Finchley)9 DECEMBER 2014 Power Cuts (North Finchley) 288WH do business at this time of year. In this economic household gas and electricity customers who fulfil any environment, it is vital that they can keep their doors of the following criteria: being of pensionable age, open to get custom. having a disability, having a hearing and/or visual Overall, electricity networks across Great Britain are impairment and/or having long-term ill health. Those among the most reliable in the world, but that does not customers listed by UKPN on its register have a dedicated mean we should ever be complacent. It is vital that freephone priority number. If my hon. Friend is unaware those affected by interruptions to their supply have of it, I would be happy to write to him with the details. their power restored as quickly as possible, and that The Electricity (Standards of Performance) Regulations networks ensure that their infrastructure is sufficient. 2010 define the guaranteed standards that we can expect By way of background, I will tell my hon. Friend from our power suppliers. They cover a range of network about what has been going on. Demand has incrementally reliability circumstances in which customers are entitled increased over the past two years in North Finchley to payments when distribution network operators fail owing to changes in use in and around Ballards lane. to meet those standards. They are established measures There has been a corresponding increase in faults on of performance that apply in the current electricity UK Power Networks’ low-voltage network. On each price control period, covering the 2010 to March 2015 occasion, UKPN responded to restore supplies as quickly period, and that will be continued—and, importantly, and safely as possible. Network infrastructure has been tightened—in the next price control period, RIIO-ED1, repaired and new equipment installed. UKPN has some commencing in April 2015. That is a catchy title if ever 134,000 km of underground network as well as, obviously, there was one. an overhead network. Work to reinforce the network Currently, in normal weather conditions, business has been under way, as my hon. Friend pointed out, for customers are entitled to a payment of £108 if power is a number of months, and it is hoped or planned to be not restored within 18 hours and a further £27 for each complete by Christmas 2014. So far, more than £2,000 further 12 hours off supply. For multiple interruptions, has been paid in compensation. defined as four interruptions of at least three hours or more in a 12-month period, customers are entitled to The increase in demand above the capacity for which £54. To help to reduce the duration of power cuts and the low-voltage network was originally designed can to incentivise improved performance, Ofgem has result in potential weak points failing. That is why proposed—the Government fully support this—that UKPN is carrying out works to reinforce that network. the minimum standard for restoration of supplies in As my hon. Friend said, it has so far invested £60,000 to normal weather conditions be reduced from 18 hours to £70,000 in doing so. Following a high-voltage fault in 12 hours from next year. As has already been pointed January 2013, customers near Briarfield Avenue substation out, in normal weather conditions, payment levels will were affected. Following restoration and repair of that increase to £150 for business customers and a further fault, UKPN yet again invested in new high-voltage £35 for each further 12 hours. For multiple interruptions, equipment to improve the reliability and operational the level will be raised to £75. I recognise that that is flexibility of the local network. In December last year, a not exactly in line with the calls made by my hon. fault developed at Friern Park substation that interrupted Friend, but it is going in the right direction. It is about some local supplies. Repairs were carried out, the network tightening up obligations on suppliers to ensure that was stabilised and customer supplies were restored. they bear the responsibilities to customers that we would Shortly afterwards, UKPN invested in a new substation, expect today. as well as reconfiguring the local network. As we head into winter, with forecasts for severe In 2014, there have been 11 separate incidents on weather in parts of the country over the next few days, I Ballards lane, affecting different circuits on the low-voltage should add that Ofgem proposes to double the payments network supplied from Gaumont substation in Finchley. that DNOs make to customers following a prolonged The demand profile in that specific area has increased period without supply caused by severe weather. Those over the last 18 months. As my hon. Friend rightly will be £70 after the initial period of interruption, pointed out, changes of business use have led to higher followed by an additional payment of £70 for each usage of electricity, which has increased loading on successive period of 12 hours without supply. The cap low-voltage cable circuits. We are talking about restaurants, per customer, for both business and residential customers, coffee shops and so on. will be increased to £700. This is what has happened so far as a result. It is important to recognise that the guaranteed standards Compensation to date has included the following. Five of performance are in recognition of “inconvenience” businesses have received four good-will gestures totalling to customers, rather than being a reflection of the full £424 and one electricity guaranteed standards payment cost of a power cut to a customer. The level of payments totalling £54. Also, 28 domestic customers have received reflects a balance between the impact faced by customers 19 gestures of good will totalling £1,072 and nine from periods without power and the amount of expenditure electricity guaranteed standards payments totalling £520. that each customer pays to their local electricity distribution Actions have been taken to rectify issues and faults. For company through their bill. Currently, distribution costs example, in February 2014, UKPN installed a low-voltage make up about 16% of an average electricity bill. If link box in Ballards lane to split up the network and to payments for loss of supply were far in excess of the balance loading across local substations. amount paid for the service, that would result in increased We should not forget that at this time of year vulnerable network charges and higher customer bills, which we all customers are affected by power outages. Network operators wish to avoid. Indeed, Ofgem research indicated that are required by Ofgem to offer a range of free services, customers did not place a high value on higher known as the priority services register, to their most compensation levels if those ultimately led to higher vulnerable customers. The scheme is available to all customer bills. 289WH Power Cuts (North Finchley)9 DECEMBER 2014 Power Cuts (North Finchley) 290WH

[Mr Ben Wallace] that things are moving in the right direction. The consultation on an increase in penalties is a move in the It is important to recognise at this stage why, unlike right direction, although we certainly wish to do more. some other products, electricity has certain conditions On the important issue of notifying network operators around it that often make it hard—this has been the following change-of-use permissions, my hon. Friend case for decades—for consumers to seek recourse through brought out an incredibly good point. I will ask my the civil courts. An electricity supplier has a duty to right hon. Friend the Minister of State to write to the connect; it has to serve the customer. In addition, the other relevant Departments and colleagues regarding nature of a network means that continuous supply in the possibility of ensuring that we notify network operators one area may cause damage elsewhere, and that may following change-of-use permissions, to try to reduce require a switch-off or an adjustment. Effectively robbing the number of incidents of this sort occurring in the Peter to pay Paul, with damage in one place rather than future. Forewarned is forearmed. I certainly agree with the other, is not good for the overall impact of the my hon. Friend that if we ensure that people are prepared network. The other issue is the very nature of electricity. for what is coming down the line, then hopefully, by the It is hazardous, and it is always difficult to guarantee it time we get to next Christmas or the next peak period, 100% of the time for 100% of customers. Those extra the network will be in a better position to make duties and difficulties mean that it is often harder to accommodation for that. make a pure economic case for loss of business as Question put and agreed to. opposed to actual damage to one’s property through a direct fault. That has an established place in law and has done over many years. It is not of great comfort to 4.48 pm businesses, but the Government recognise, as does Ofgem, Sitting adjourned. 27WS Written Statements9 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 28WS

governance culture by the report into the allegations Written Statements concerning Birmingham’s schools, the leader of Birmingham city council Sir Albert Bore and I asked Tuesday 9 December 2014 Sir Bob Kerslake to lead a review of the governance of the city council to report by December 2014 (as outlined TREASURY in the written statement of 22 July 2014, Official Report, Column 109WS). ECOFIN Sir Bob’s review has been supported by an expert advisory panel comprising senior local government leaders The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): and chief executives. Sir Bob and the panel have spent A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council a significant amount of time in the city meeting over will be held in Brussels on 9 December 2014. Ministers 350 people including citizens, business leaders, community will discuss the following items: and faith leaders, the voluntary and community sector, Financial transactions tax local politicians, council officers, frontline staff and The presidency will present a short state of play representatives of the other public services. They have update on this file, both in light of work carried out also spoken to each of the hon. Members representing during its semester and work which will be taken forward the city and received around 80 submissions of written under the next presidency. evidence. Current legislative proposals The review has found a series of deep rooted and The presidency will provide an update on the status serious problems that are stopping both the city and the of current legislative files. council from fulfilling their potential. These include: Single resolution mechanism—single resolution fund the council has to change its corporate culture. Its size acts contributions as both a badge and a barrier: it has led to a not invented here, silo based and council-knows-best attitude. Trojan The presidency will seek political agreement on a Horse was symptomatic of a culture, under successive proposed regulation regarding ex ante contribution by administrations, that has too often swept deep rooted problems participants to the single resolution fund. under the carpet rather than addressed them; Measures in support of investment for years Birmingham city council’s members and senior Ministers will discuss measures to support investment officers have failed to collectively take the big decisions ahead of discussion at December European Council. needed to tackle the problems the city faces and to be sufficiently clear with residents about the choices that need Review of the Europe 2020 strategy to be made; The Council will hold a follow-up discussion on the the clear boundaries that should exist between the roles of Europe 2020 review ahead of General Affairs Council members and officers have become blurred; and in December. the city council has 15 of the 20 wards with the largest Economic governance population in the country and the council is the largest Ahead of discussion at December European Council metropolitan borough. There are also very few town and the Commission will present a suite of documents, parish councils within the city’s boundaries. The sheer number including the annual growth survey 2015, the alert of councillors (120) means the council is difficult to run and the large size of the multi-member wards has meant councillors mechanism report 2015 and a communication on the have found it hard to represent their communities effectively. six-pack and two-pack review. Ministers will then hold an exchange of views on these items. The primary responsibility to address these challenges Annual report of the Court of Auditors on budget lies with the city council. However, as was the case in implementation Stoke-on-Trent, the current electoral arrangements of elections with large three member wards in Birmingham The President of the European Court of Auditors are not helping. A combination of single member wards, will present the court’s annual report on the implementation a smaller number of members and all-out elections will of the budget for the financial year 2013. make the council stronger, save taxpayers’ money and Code of conduct (business taxation) become much more directly accountable to the people it The Council will be invited to endorse the report on the serves. progress of the code of conduct group during the I therefore intend to change the electoral cycle of the Italian presidency, and to adopt accompanying Council council to all-out elections and ask the Local Government conclusions. Boundary Committee for England to conduct an electoral Letter by Finance Ministers Sapin, Schaeuble and Padoan review with a view to completing its work to enable to Commissioner Moscovici elections by May 2017. The presidency will provide information on a letter The review makes clear that there are fewer town and from France, Germany and Italy to Commissioner parish councils in Birmingham than in other cities. The Moscovici outlining views on ways forward to tackle Government want to make it easier and simpler for tax avoidance. people to set up town and parish councils where they do not exist. Where local people express popular support COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT for the creation of a town or parish council, the city council should work with local residents to help that Birmingham City Council happen not frustrate them. Parts of Birmingham are among the most deprived in The Secretary of State for Communities and Local the country and as a result there are more poor children Government (Mr Eric Pickles): To address the wider in the city than anywhere else in England. This will not weaknesses that were highlighted in Birmingham’s change while so many adults remain low skilled and are 29WS Written Statements9 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 30WS locked out of the new jobs the city’s businesses are EDUCATION creating and these are the conditions in which distrust and division can thrive. The Government will therefore also consider supporting the review’s recommendation to create a new high powered partnership vehicle focused A World-class Teaching Profession on increasing employment and improving skills, starting (Government Consultation) in the most deprived parts of Birmingham. The Government believe that, where locally-supported, combined authorities can help co-ordinate and drive The Secretary of State for Education (Nicky Morgan): through policy to stimulate economic growth and plan The Minister of State for Schools and I are today strategically across the city and their natural economic launching a consultation on proposals to support the area. I note the steps that the city council is taking with teaching profession in England in becoming truly world- its neighbouring authorities to form a new locally-led class. combined authority. However, as the review makes clear Evidence from around the world consistently shows they are falling behind other places. Local leaders should that the quality of teaching is the single most important put aside their differences and reach agreement on a school-based factor determining how well children achieve. combined authority quickly so the locality can once There is much to celebrate in the quality of teachers in again become a powerhouse for innovation, jobs and our schools, but there is also more that can be done if growth. our teachers and teaching are to be truly world-class. The scale of the problems Sir Bob has found means Increasingly, the teaching profession is becoming a the city council is unlikely to be able to address them powerful force for its own improvement. The best schools alone. I will therefore be appointing an independent are driving up standards in others, with outstanding improvement panel that will provide the support and teachers leading the way in modelling practice within robust challenge the city council needs. I intend that this their own schools and beyond. But there is more that will help the people of Birmingham to hold the council we, as Government, can do to promote and support a to account for how they are improving. It will report self-improving schools system to build on the successes formally on progress in December 2015. that it has already made. Sir Bob has published his review today and I have So we are now proposing a number of measures placed a copy in the Library of the House. It is also designed to help teachers to go even further in raising available online at: http://www.parliament.uk/ standards. Our proposals centre on the development of writtenstatements. teaching as a mature and confident profession whose members are committed to their own development and improvement, and who consequently are accorded the status as professionals that they rightly deserve. DEFENCE We are consulting on two key areas. First, we are setting out our commitment to supporting the establishment of a new professional body for teaching—a college of UK-Bahrain Defence Arrangement teaching. We agree with the many teachers and school leaders who have called for such a body to be established as part of the process of putting greater power and authority in the hands of the teaching profession itself. The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): The consultation proposes a number of ways in which The UK and Bahrain have agreed to enhance the naval Government might support the initial set-up of a college and logistics facilities that are used by British forces in while guaranteeing its long-term independence, which Bahrain and that support our basing and operations in will be crucial to its success. We are inviting expressions the Gulf region. The new arrangement was signed at of interest from groups who are interested in establishing the Manama dialogue on 5 December, 2014. the college, through which we can channel appropriate This agreement will improve facilities at the Bahrain support. defence force Mina Salman port in Bahrain, where the Secondly, we are proposing measures to improve the UK has mine hunters permanently based and from quality of professional development undertaken by teachers. where British destroyers and frigates in the Gulf are High-quality, evidence-based professional development supported. Under the arrangement, the UK and Bahrain is the hallmark of leading professions; too often, however, will work together to enhance the facilities at the port, teachers tell us that they are being let down by the and provide a bigger base for ships on operations, store opportunities available to them. We want to support equipment, and accommodate service personnel. Bahrain teaching to become a truly “learning profession”, whose will make a significant contribution to the cost of the members are committed to career-long development. new facilities. We are therefore proposing to establish a new fund to The UK will maintain a defence presence in Bahrain support the development and delivery of high-quality for years to come. The agreement reaffirms the UK’s professional development programmes, led by the teaching and Bahrain’s joint determination to maintain regional schools network but reaching out to those schools security and stability in the face of enduring and emerging which require the greatest additional support to improve. regional challenges. The expansion of Britain’s footprint All programmes will be robustly evaluated and the builds upon our 40-year track record of Gulf patrols evidence generated will be made widely available to and is just one example of our growing partnerships teachers, helping to build and spread a sound knowledge with the Gulf states to tackle shared strategic and base about the effectiveness of different approaches to regional threats. professional development. 31WS Written Statements9 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 32WS

The full proposals are available online at www.gov.uk Degression and the consultation will be open until 3 February 2015. RHI expenditure is controlled within agreed limits A copy of the consultation document is also available through a budget management mechanism known as online at: http://www.parliament.uk/writtenstatements degression. When the new tiered tariffs are introduced, the biomethane degression triggers will remain unchanged and committed expenditure—for the purposes of assessing ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE degressions—will be based upon expenditure for plants registered under both the old tariff and new tariffs; and Renewable Heat Incentive that if a degression for the biomethane tariffs is triggered, it will be applied to all tiers equally, e.g. for a 5% tariff The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy degression, the tariff in each tier would be reduced by and Climate Change (Amber Rudd): In May this year, I 5%. This means that the relative levels of the tiers will published a formal consultation setting out our proposals be maintained. We consider this approach avoids to review the biomethane injection to grid tariff under introducing further complexity into the scheme and the renewable heat incentive (RHI). Since then DECC creating uncertainty for industry. has engaged extensively with stakeholders on our proposals In order to avoid the new tariff being degressed soon and received over 60 responses to the consultation. after its introduction, which would be destabilising for Today, I am pleased to announce the publication of investor certainty, the new biomethane tariff will have the formal Government response to our consultation temporary protection from degression between the which sets out how we will revise the biomethane injection introduction of the tariff and the end of June 2015. to grid tariff. Biomethane is set to be an important However, there is a balances to be struck between contributor to renewable heat under the RHI and I providing tariff stability and enforcing budget control. want to ensure the scheme allows the burgeoning As such, the new tariff, once introduced, will be eligible biomethane injection to grid market to grow sustainably for degression from 1 July 2015 inclusive. The outcome and offer good value for money to the taxpayer. Copies of the degression assessment for both 1 January and 1 of the response will be placed in the Libraries of the April 2015 will still apply for the purposes of assessing House. the level of any degression to be applied on 1 July 2015. The new tariffs will also be subject to any retail price New tariffs index uplift on 1 April 2015. DECC intends to implement a tiered tariff structure Additional capacity to the biomethane injection to grid tariff based around three tiers. We intend to pay 7.5p for the first 40,000 Any additional capacity added to existing plant will megawatt hours (MWh) injected into the grid (the “tier receive the prevailing tariff at the time the additional 1” tariff), 4.4p for the next 40,000 MWh (the “tier 2” capacity is registered, e.g. if additional capacity is registered tariff) and 3.4p for any subsequent biomethane injected after the tiered tariffs have been introduced, it will over a period of 12 months from the date of registration. receive the tiered tariff, or a degressed tiered tariff. The tariff will be paid up to the maximum volume of Consistent with the announcement we made this biomethane the producer is entitled to inject under the summer, that any new tariff will not be introduced Network Entry Agreement (NEA). Tiering was before 1 December 2014, we plan that the implementing overwhelmingly popular among consultation respondents, regulations will come into force in February 2015 subject particularly a three tier approach. Tiering is less prone to parliamentary approval and will apply to all new to unintended consequences such as gaming, as opposed installations and additional capacity only. to the alternative option we consulted on, a banding I will lay the necessary statutory instruments to solution which encourages clustering around band implement these changes before the House as soon as thresholds which could lead to inefficient sizing of possible. plants. Tiering the tariff also means there is no longer a requirement to accurately determine the system capacity of the plant. This is because the meter readings relating HEALTH to volume of gas injected can be used to determine the “tiered” payments. The tariffs have been modelled based on a feedstock Gosport Independent Panel mix of 70% unpackaged food waste and 30% energy crop. Feedback from the responses indicated that it is necessary to include some energy crop in the feedstock The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman mix to hedge against the risk inherent in short-term Lamb): On 10 July, Official Report, column 33WS, I waste contracts. announced the establishment of the Gosport independent Feedback from the consultation revealed a broad panel, chaired by Bishop James Jones, set up to review consensus that the gate fees presented in the consultation documentary evidence held across a range of organisations document were too high, that contracts offering that concerning the initial care of families’ relatives and the level of income are no longer available, and there is subsequent investigations into their deaths in Gosport limited opportunity to secure the long-term contracts War Memorial hospital. for food waste which have been available in the past. Since then, the Bishop has begun working with affected The tariffs have been modelled based on gate fees of families to ensure their views are taken into account in £15 per tonne for unpackaged food waste based upon shaping the terms of reference. evidence received during the consultation. Evidence I can now announce the Gosport independent panel’s from the consultation supported a crop feedstock cost agreed terms of reference and the appointment of four of £35 per tonne. further members of the panel. 33WS Written Statements9 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 34WS

In summary, the remit of the Gosport independent upcoming Latvian presidency. The UK underlined that panel will be to: it did not see the value in introducing an additional Consult with the families of the deceased and of those pre-market scrutiny mechanism. treated to ensure that the views of those affected are taken Council conclusions were adopted on: vaccination as into consideration; an effective tool in public health; patient safety and Obtain, examine and analyse documentation from all relevant quality of care, including the prevention and control of organisations and individuals—governmental and non- health care associated infections and antimicrobial governmental. resistance; and innovation for the benefit of patients. Produce a report which will provide an overview of the There was an exchange of views on the mid-term information reviewed by the panel and will illustrate how the information disclosed adds to public understanding of these review of the Europe 2020 strategy, and the value of events and their aftermath. including health in the strategy. The UK argued against expanding the strategy to include health policy on the The four additional panel members I have appointed grounds that the management and delivery of health are: care is a national competence and stated that a strategy Dr Bill Kirkup, CBE, former member of the Hillsborough focused on jobs and growth would be the most effective. independent panel and currently the chair of an independent investigation into neonatal and maternal deaths at Morecambe Under any other business, the Health Commissioner Bay hospital. Dr Kirkup will finish this work before taking gave an update on the work being done by the Commission up his place on the Gosport panel substantively. to combat the Ebola outbreak. Spain called on member Dr Colin Currie, as a geriatrician, has wide experience in the states and the EU to sign the Council of Europe Convention care of older people in acute, rehabilitation and respite against trafficking in human organs. There was discussion settings; and also has expertise in clinical governance, hip on an agenda item tabled by Luxembourg which focused fracture care, and policy on the integration of health and on the admission criteria for men who have sex with social care. men (MSM) to donate blood. The Italian presidency David Hencke is an investigative journalist and writer. provided information on the outcomes of conferences Duncan Jarrett, OBE, is a former Scotland Yard commander held during their tenure. and an experienced mediator. The incoming Latvian presidency discussed its priorities. Christine Gifford is a recognised expert in the field of There will be three overarching priorities: competiveness access to information. She joined the panel in July, and and growth, the digital economy, and the EU’s role in has started work to ensure maximum possible disclosure the global arena. On health, they will prioritise: of the documentary evidence to the panel. Healthy lifestyles; I am making these appointments in view of the skill the medical devices regulations; set required for the panel’s work. The new panel members the new EU alcohol strategy; are experts in their respective fields and I am grateful to the upcoming Eastern Partnership conference on multi- each of them for agreeing to take on this task. Other resistant tuberculosis. panel members may be appointed at a later date. I will During the ministerial lunch, there was a discussion announce any future appointments through a press on Ebola. The UK outlined the action it had taken so release. far and encouraged other member states to make further This announcement marks the beginning of very contributions. important work for the independent panel members, The Italian presidency also drew attention to the fact relevant organisations and individuals in addressing the that the meeting coincided with World AIDS day. concerns and questions raised by family members over the years. JUSTICE The review by the independent panel is expected to complete by the end of 2017. The Secretary of State for Civil Legal Advice Health will make arrangements for publication of the final report to Parliament. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice A copy of the detailed terms of reference has been (Mr Shailesh Vara): During the passage of the Legal placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Copies are Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to the Ministry of Justice committed to report to Parliament noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. It is also on the operation of the Civil Legal Advice (CLA) available online at: http://www.parliament.uk/ mandatory gateway within two years of its implementation. writtenstatements This review is being published today and consists of four research reports and, separately, the Government’s Health Council response. The research is in four parts: Civil Legal Advice mandatory gateway: Overarching research summary, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health Findings from interviews with users, (Jane Ellison): The Employment, Social Policy, Health Findings from interviews with service providers, and Consumer Affairs (EPSCO) Council met in Brussels Analysis of management information. to discuss health issues on 1 December. The UK was These reports, and the separate Government response, represented at the meeting by the UK Deputy Permanent when taken together constitute the review of the Civil Representative to the EU. Legal Advice mandatory gateway. I have placed copies The Italian presidency provided a progress report on of these reports in the Library of the House. They are the medical devices regulations. Member states recognised also available online at, http://www.parliament.uk/ the importance of making swift progress under the writtenstatements 35WS Written Statements9 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 36WS

TRANSPORT Following the Council, the Foreign Secretary spoke to his Italian counterpart last week to express our view that the dossier could not proceed to the next stage— EU Transport Council discussions with the European Parliament—until the question of application to Gibraltar had been resolved. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport I am pleased to report that the Italian Foreign Minister (Mr Robert Goodwill): I attended the second Transport gave his assurance that the Italian presidency would not Council under the Italian presidency (the presidency) in seek to do this. Brussels on Wednesday 3 December. Although I was not present for the remainder of the The first item under consideration was on TEN-T, Council, the UK Deputy Permanent Representative to where the presidency opened proceedings by outlining the EU continued to occupy the UK seat. I can report the link between the conclusions and both the mid-term that the following discussions also took place. review of the Europe 2020 package and the launch of On Standards of training, certification and watch-keeping the Juncker investment package. Former commissioner for fishing vessel personnel (STCW-F), the Commission Christopherson gave an overview of his interim report restated its position with regards to the reservation which he thought could provide transport projects for considering that this was the only legally sound approach. support from the Juncker package which is seeking to One member state intervened to support the Council leverage investment from the private sector. Member decision but indicated that they would make a declaration states expressed their support for the conclusions in respect of the legal base. which were adopted. Commissioner Bulc welcomed the conclusions and asked for transport to be the subject of The presidency’s progress report on the fourth railway the spring European Council next year and to be at the package was broadly welcomed by member states but heart of the Europe Council 2020 strategy. led to an echoing of comments made by member states in October. Several member states made it clear that for However the Council’s proceedings were dominated them the technical pillar remained the priority. The by discussions on the proposed general approaches on presidency and Commission were clear that the technical the two legislative proposals under Single European pillar on its own was not enough and that the package Sky II+. The general approach on the SES Council should stay together. Many member states remained related amendments to the EASA regulation was agreed sceptical about mandatory competitive tendering and without comment and the related Commission declaration called for more flexibility on direct award provisions. on the applicability of the EASA regulation to Gibraltar Latvia stated the fourth railway package would be a airport was accepted. priority for their forthcoming presidency.The Commission On the SES recast, I supported the presidency’s ambition took on board member state comments and looked of reaching a general approach on the condition that it forward to progressing work under the Latvian presidency. respected in full the EU treaties and included Gibraltar In addition, a general approach was reached on the airport within scope. Spain sought the exclusion of repeal of regulation 1192/69 on common rules for the Gibraltar airport. In an astonishing move, the presidency normalisation of the accounts of railway undertakings, proposed (i) to put in square brackets the current text in a welcome simplification measure. article 1, paragraph 5, which notes that the application of the regulation is without prejudice to the respective Under any other business, the presidency informed legal positions of the UK and Spain with regard to the the Council about the EASA event on remotely piloted dispute over sovereignty over the territory in which the aircraft systems (RPAS) that recently took place in airport is situated and (ii) to add a footnote stating that, Rome which the presidency hoped would serve as a “the question on how to reflect the Gibraltar issue in the text is useful basis to continue discussions under the Latvian awaiting the outcome of discussions between Spain and UK.” presidency. I objected in the strongest possible terms, emphasising Commissioner Bienkowska updated the Council on that Gibraltar was included in the current SES framework, Galileo and EGNOS. She made very clear she was that any exclusion of Gibraltar was unjustifiable under committed to ensuring the success of the space sector, the treaties and that I could not accept any proposal that transport was a key user underpinning the success that did not make clear that Gibraltar was within scope. of EGNOS and Galileo and looked to member states to At my request, the Council legal service opined that continue their support. the Council’s agreement on the aviation content amounted Lithuania drew Council’s attention to their recent to a general approach, but the consequence of the part experience of detailed inspections of Lithuanian registered not agreed by all member states, that is the part concerning vehicles at the Russian border and the negative impact Gibraltar, resulted in the general approach being partial. this was having on the Lithuanian haulage sector. They Overriding my protest and the opinion of the legal called on the Commission and other member states to service, the Commission welcomed the presidency’s agree a common solution to help resolve the situation. proposal, and the presidency concluded that a general The Commission took note although recognised the approach had been reached. I left the Council in protest limited ability for action in the wider political context. at what was a completely unacceptable situation. Finally, Latvia set out the priorities for their presidency. The Government are clear that EU aviation legislation The fourth railway package would be one of their main applies to Gibraltar as is clearly set out in the EU priorities. On road, Latvia recognised the importance of treaties. We will continue to defend the inclusion of weights and dimensions and cross-border enforcement Gibraltar in EU aviation legislation. We reserve our files and indicated that the review of the Commission’s position on the lawfulness of any other outcome and on road safety strategy would be the subject of a policy our response, including the possibility of pursuing legal debate. Latvia was explicitly clear that they would only proceedings. continue work on SES II+ and airport slots if there was 37WS Written Statements9 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 38WS a consensus among member states. They also did not progress negotiations on the ports services regulation rule out the possibility of continuing work on air passenger subject to progress made in the European Parliament. rights. Finally, the incoming presidency would focus on Latvia would hold three high-level events in Riga on technical requirements for inland waterways and would EU-Asia transport links, RPAS and TEN-T corridors. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 9 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 757 TREASURY—continued Corporation Tax ...... 761 Infrastructure Investment...... 757 Economic Growth (The Humber) ...... 759 Pensioners and Savers ...... 770 Employment Statistics...... 764 Personal Tax Allowance...... 771 Government Borrowing ...... 770 Tax Avoidance ...... 767 High Street Retailers (Tax Levels)...... 766 Tax Credits...... 768 Housing Market...... 768 Topical Questions ...... 772 Income Tax ...... 760 Uncollected Tax ...... 763 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 9 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 27WS HEALTH...... 32WS Birmingham City Council...... 27WS Gosport Independent Panel ...... 32WS Health Council...... 33WS DEFENCE...... 29WS UK-Bahrain Defence Arrangement ...... 29WS JUSTICE...... 34WS Civil Legal Advice...... 34WS EDUCATION...... 30WS A World-class Teaching Profession TRANSPORT ...... 35WS (Government Consultation)...... 30WS EU Transport Council ...... 35WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 31WS TREASURY ...... 27WS Renewable Heat Incentive ...... 31WS ECOFIN...... 27WS Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 9 December 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 757] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Funeral Services [Col. 781] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mrs Lewell-Buck)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill [Col. 784] Considered in Committee

Petitions [Col. 838]

Patient Safety and Medical Innovation [Col. 841] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Education of Children with Cerebral Palsy [Col. 227WH] General Dental Council [Col. 245WH] Anti-Semitism [Col. 253WH] Secondary Education (Skelmersdale) [Col. 277WH] Power Cuts (North Finchley) [Col. 285WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 27WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]