Tuesday Volume 569 29 October 2013 No. 65

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 29 October 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 739 29 OCTOBER 2013 740

Hugh Robertson: I am due to make my first visit to House of Commons the region next week, so will be addressing many of the concerns outlined in the hon. Gentleman’s question. As he knows, the Foreign Office funded the report carried Tuesday 29 October 2013 out by Baroness Scotland. We continue to urge the Government of Israel to implement it in full. As I have The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock said, I will be taking that up next week. Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I warmly PRAYERS welcome the Minister to his responsibilities—if I may say so, he brings a terrific track record. Does the Minister agree that the question of detainees [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] is inextricably linked to the overall security situation in the region and progress in peace talks? Does he share BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS my concern that Hamas is resolutely and literally trying to undermine the peace process in the region by building a tunnel from Gaza into Israel, no doubt for the purposes LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR of promoting terrorism? What can we do to remove that LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] obstacle? Third Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday 5 November (Standing Order No. 20). Mr Speaker: That was quite a cheeky attempt by the hon. Gentleman. I think the Minister should try to HERTFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (FILMING ON focus his remarks on the issue of child detainees. We are HIGHWAYS)BILL [LORDS] grateful to him for doing so. Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday 5 November (Standing Order No. 20). Hugh Robertson: Thank you, Mr Speaker—it will, of course, be a great pleasure. As I said in my answer to the previous question, I look forward to my initial visit to the region next week. Oral Answers to Questions The concerns that my hon. Friend raises will be a topic of much discussion. The encouraging thing is that, for the first time in many years, we are in a process. I encourage both sides to engage in that peace process for FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE the greater good of the country and the region.

The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): When the Minister visits the region, will he raise with his Israeli Palestinian Child Detainees counterparts why Israel is the only country in the world that systematically tries children in military courts, and 1. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What why about a quarter of the children currently in custody assessment he has made of the treatment of Palestinian are held in Israel, which is also contrary to international child detainees in Israel. [900728] law?

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Hugh Robertson: Yes, I will do so. As I have said, the Office (Hugh Robertson): Before answering, may I briefly Foreign Office helped to fund Baroness Scotland’s excellent place on the record my appreciation for the work of my report into many of the issues surrounding child detainees. predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for North We not only funded that report, but entirely support it. East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt)? He will be greatly During my time as a Minister, I will do everything I can missed by his many friends in the House and across the to ensure that its recommendations are properly and region. correctly implemented. Despite some progress, we retain serious concerns about Israel’s treatment of Palestinian child detainees. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I join The British ambassador in Tel Aviv wrote again to the hon. Members who have concerns about the treatment Israeli Justice Minister on 14 October to urge further of detainees, but is it not important to focus on the action. source of the problem, which is Palestinian children being infected by the glorification of violence and hate Alex Cunningham: I welcome the Minister to his new education, which, sadly, are supported by the Palestinian post. May I commend the Foreign Office report “Children Authority? Can the Minister assure me that taxpayer in Military Custody” for exposing how the authorities funding does not support such activities? in Israel arrest Palestinian children in the middle of the night, interrogate them without parents or lawyers present, Hugh Robertson: Yes, on the basis of three weeks’ bully them into signing confessions in a language they work, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. In a do not understand, and jail children as young as 12 years sense, his question points to the importance of everybody old? Will the Minister outline what action he is taking concerned getting behind the peace process. If that and tell the House how many of the 40 recommendations comes successfully to fruition, many of those problems in the report have been carried out? will be solved in its wake. 741 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 742

Detention of British Nationals (Russia) appointed him as one of his champions of the single currency in the Labour party. Having served his time in quarantine, he is now being allowed out again. 2. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What representations he has made to the Russian The hon. Gentleman may not have been here yesterday, authorities regarding the recent detention of six British but my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it nationals in that country. [900729] clear at the Dispatch Box that he stood ready to speak to President Putin whenever that would best help the welfare of those who are being detained and lead to a The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My satisfactory outcome for them. The search for a satisfactory right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary raised the matter outcome to this case remains at the top of the Government’s with the Russian Foreign Affairs Minister on 25 September priorities, and it determines how we handle individual and again on 6 October. Our ambassador in Moscow representations. did the same with Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Titov of Russia on 22 October. Sri Lanka (Human Rights)

Mr Cunningham: I thank the right hon. Gentleman 3. Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): What recent for that answer, but there are reports that some British assessment he has made of the human rights situation nationals in Murmansk prison have not had access to in Sri Lanka. [900730] medical attention, and that some are in solitary confinement. What representations have the Government made regarding The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth the conditions of their pre-trial detention and their Affairs (Mr William Hague): We have serious concerns access to medical treatment? What response have the about the human rights situation in Sri Lanka, including Government received? freedom of expression and judicial independence. I will use my attendance at the Commonwealth Heads of Mr Lidington: Since the detentions were announced Government meeting to see the situation on the ground by the Russian authorities, we have sent a team of and raise our concerns directly with the Sri Lankan British officials each week to Murmansk to ensure that Government. the detainees’ consular needs are being properly looked after. We have taken up with the prison authorities, or Wayne David: I thank the Foreign Secretary for that with other Russian authorities as appropriate, all the reply. However, if he and the Prime Minister are to concerns that the detainees themselves have expressed attend the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting, to us about the conditions in which they are being held. what will their strategy be to ensure that the Sri Lankan At the moment, they are telling us that their conditions authorities hear loudly and clearly the representations are “broadly acceptable”, but we stand ready to take up that are being made and, more importantly, take action? any further concerns that they may have. Mr Hague: Of course we will take up these issues. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Given the The Prime Minister and I will visit the north of Sri unjustifiable detention of British citizens, will Ministers Lanka to see for ourselves what is happening. We will follow the example of Councillor Wendy Flynn, mayor press the Sri Lankan Government to investigate all of Cheltenham, which is Sochi’s twin town, and refuse human rights abuses, including the shocking allegations any offers of hospitality or visits in connection with of acts of sexual violence committed during and after Sochi’s winter Olympics in 2014? the conflict. We will urge them to allow free expression and to stop intimidation of journalists, and call on them to bring about reconciliation and political reform. Mr Lidington: I am afraid that the Government rules It is important that we give that message to them in on accepting hospitality are already strict and limit person. what Ministers can do. The key point is that the Sochi winter Olympics will provide an opportunity for people from this country, including journalists and editors, to 19. [900748] Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): meet and engage with Russians of all backgrounds and It is both unfortunate and disturbing that the to stand up for the values in which we believe. Commonwealth Heads of Government conference is being held in Sri Lanka at this time. While the intention of the Prime Minister to visit northern Sri Lanka, Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): As where the Tamils mainly live, is very much to be these exchanges have reinforced, there is concern on welcomed, will he and my right hon. Friend the Foreign both sides of the House about the continuing detention Secretary raise at CHOGM the recommendations of of the British Greenpeace activists and journalists. Given the Commonwealth eminent persons group that were the growing fears about the conditions in which they are discussed at the last Commonwealth conference, in being held—conditions condemned by the European particular the recommendation of a commissioner for Court of Human Rights last year, I understand—and the rule of law, democracy and human rights? If such a the length of time they are likely to be incarcerated, can commissioner had been appointed at the last CHOGM, I ask the Minister gently what exactly it will take for the we would have a much more objective assessment of the Foreign Secretary to persuade the Prime Minister to true circumstances in Sri Lanka at this moment. intervene on their behalf? Mr Hague: My right hon. and learned Friend played Mr Lidington: First, may I welcome the hon. Gentleman a distinguished role in the eminent persons group report. to his new responsibilities? Of course this is a return It is a pity that not every aspect of that report was to European activity from the days when Tony Blair adopted by the Commonwealth as we debated it over 743 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 744 the last couple of years, although the charter for the Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): For British Tamils in Commonwealth was agreed, as was a more active role Wycombe, the situation in Sri Lanka is a cause of for the Commonwealth ministerial action group. We profound and continuous concern. Does the Foreign will continue to raise these issues in the Commonwealth. Secretary agree that British people who hail from troubled territories overseas are entitled to the most robust Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire representation from the British Government? South) (Lab): Just a moment or two ago, the Foreign Secretary said, in relation to human rights abuses in Sri Mr Hague: Yes. My hon. Friend is absolutely right Lanka, that he will be taking up these issues when he and those people will continue to see that robust travels there. However, in answer to a written question representation, including at the Commonwealth Heads in July, the Foreign Office stated that they “expect of Government meeting. progress”in human rights and post-conflict reconciliation in the run-up to the summit in November. Despite Kashmir writing to the Minister responsible to follow up on that answer, we have not yet received a reply. Will the Foreign 4. Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) Secretary set out now what specific progress on the two (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the key benchmarks identified by the Government has been situation in Kashmir. [900731] made since July? The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Mr Hague: First, I must congratulate the right hon. Office (Mr Hugo Swire): The UK is deeply concerned Gentleman on being appointed Labour’s campaign about recent violent incidents in Kashmir. These incidents co-ordinator for the next general election. As he ran its have caused regrettable loss of life on both sides of the last general election campaign and David Miliband’s line of control. We welcome the call for dialogue from leadership election campaign, we on the Government both sides in response to these incidents and the steps Benches are delighted with the appointment, even if it they are taking to prevent future hostilities. makes him a slightly part-time shadow Foreign Secretary. Debbie Abrahams: The territorial dispute in Kashmir There have been some steps forward in Sri Lanka, is the longest running in the world. It is a particular which we have to recognise, including the northern issue for many of my constituents, and the violence and provincial council elections that took place in September. human rights abuses have spanned decades. I have been They were generally peaceful and well-regarded, but all disappointed with the Minister’s response. What specifically the issues I listed remain. While there have been some can he tell me about action being taken on conflict steps forward, many more are needed. resolution programmes in this area?

Mr Alexander: Does the Foreign Secretary accept Mr Swire: The first thing to put on the record is that that there is mounting evidence that Sri Lanka is heading we believe any solution should be between the two in the wrong direction? It is not simply that these issues Governments of India and Pakistan. We welcome progress “remain”. This month, the Foreign Affairs Committee made in September during a meeting of both Prime criticised the Ministers in New York. The British Government do “scant evidence of progress in political and human rights”. help, and we have had discussions on human rights as In August, the UN human rights commissioner said recently as last month. From our conflict pool, we that Sri Lanka was support key work on projects to promote trade, development “heading in an increasingly authoritarian direction”, and capacity building in the area. and even the Government’s own 2012 human rights Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Does my right report warned of “negative developments”. The Prime hon. Friend agree that Jammu and Kashmir are part of Minister’s announcement six months ahead of the summit India and that part of India they should stay until such has proved both a misjudgment and a missed opportunity. time as India says otherwise? Will the Government take Will the Foreign Secretary, even at this late stage, urge action to ensure that state-sponsored terrorism in this the Prime Minister to reconsider his decision to confirm disputed territory is not allowed to continue? his attendance at the summit? Mr Swire: It is precisely for that last reason that we Mr Hague: No. There are many serious criticisms, urge discussions between the two countries, and I am including in our own reports, of the human rights pleased to report that some progress has been made. record in Sri Lanka. Of course these are issues that we Along with other positive measures, both countries want to take up in Sri Lanka, but the right hon. Gentleman have agreed to double bilateral trade by 2014 and India must recognise that the Commonwealth Heads of has lifted a ban on direct investment from Pakistan. As Government meeting will consider matters such as the the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth future of the millennium development goals, expanding (Debbie Abrahams) said, however, this is a long-running international trade and upholding human rights in other conflict, and we stand by to help; but ultimately it can parts of the world. We need to be present at those be resolved only by the two countries in question. discussions with a quarter of the globe. We also need to recognise that the consequences for the Commonwealth Attacks on Christians (Pakistan) of the United Kingdom not attending a Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting would be very serious 5. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): What and could be long term. That is why it is important, and recent discussions his Department has had with the that is why we decided to be there at the table, as well as Government of Pakistan regarding attacks on raising the concerns so well expressed in this House. Christians in that country. [900732] 745 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 746

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth authorities first to provide protection for Christians Office (Hugh Robertson): We have publicly condemned and their property, and secondly to take action against the attacks on the Christian communities in Peshawar discrimination, whether by the state or by other groups? and raised the issue of religious minorities with the Pakistani Prime Minister and other Ministers, including Hugh Robertson: The answer has to be yes. It is a during recent ministerial visits to Pakistan and at the good question and a good point. Absolutely a key part UN General Assembly in September. of our intervention and conversations with the Pakistani Government is about ensuring that minority rights and religious freedoms, as enshrined in the constitution of Sheila Gilmore: I share the Minister’s horror at the Pakistan, are indeed protected. recent incident, as do many people in this country, particularly in the Christian community.We are accustomed Iran (Nuclear Capability) to tolerance here. What practical steps are the Government taking to ensure that the Pakistani Government take 6. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What steps to protect Christians in their country? recent assessment he has made of how close Iran is to producing (a) sufficient weapons-grade nuclear Hugh Robertson: That assistance effectively comes in materials to make a nuclear warhead and (b) a ballistic two ways, not only through the help we provide to missile capable of delivering such a warhead to Tel tackle counter-terrorism, such as the enhanced strategic Aviv or Riyadh. [900733] dialogue and the joint working group on counter-terrorism, The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth but through our aid programme to Pakistan, which I Affairs (Mr William Hague): Iran continues to enrich hope addresses—and I am sure does address—the root uranium to 20% and to expand its capacity for enrichment. causes of extremism and tries to ensure that this does This brings Iran much closer to having sufficient material not happen again. for a nuclear device, should it decide to enrich further. Most large middle eastern cities and some major cities Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): in Europe are within range of Iran’s several hundred What steps is my right hon. Friend’s Department taking medium-range ballistic missiles. to protect freedom of religious expression not only in Pakistan, but across the world? Mr Hollobone: Clearly, enriching uranium beyond the 3.5% required for civilian use sends a very dangerous Hugh Robertson: That is a good one for my first signal. Is not Iran’s apparent enthusiasm for talks nothing Foreign Office questions. I will restrict my answer purely but a protective smokescreen to dissuade the Israelis to Pakistan. The guarantees to which my hon. Friend from undertaking military engagement and to allow alludes are established in the constitution of Pakistan, Iran to cross the nuclear finishing line and develop a and we would urge everybody involved in the process to nuclear warhead? uphold those guarantees and ensure that these sorts of Mr Hague: I believe we have to test to the full Iran’s acts do not happen again. willingness to negotiate and to come to an agreement with the international community on its nuclear programme. 21. [900750] Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and The programme continues: Iran claims that its 20% Leith) (Lab/Co-op): The recent bomb attack on All enriched uranium is fuel for its one small research Saints’ church in Peshawar, which the Minister referred reactor, but it already has enough enriched uranium to to, was felt deeply not just in Pakistan, but by many in fuel that reactor for the next 10 years. That is why we Scotland of Pakistani origin and others, because it was argue that there is no plausible peaceful explanation for the home church of a Church of Scotland minister, the continuation of enrichment and of many features of who lost his mother and two other relatives in that Iran’s programme. But we must test Iran’s willingness to dreadful attack. Besides going through the United negotiate, and we continue to do so. Nations, how can the Minister raise this issue within the international community? For example, can the EU Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): But is not also be involved in raising these concerns with not one of the dangers of Iran pursuing this nuclear Pakistan? ambition that it could empower some of the terrorist organisations that Iran sponsors around the world, and Hugh Robertson: Yes, of course it can. Many other particularly in the middle east? Does not that further countries will have links to Pakistan in the same way undermine the process of peace in that region? that this country and the church the hon. Gentleman Mr Hague: Yes, it absolutely undermines the process mentioned do, and I know that the EU will be raising of peace. The threat of nuclear proliferation in the the issue in the same way.There are very special relationships middle east, which is what the Iranian nuclear programme between this country and Pakistan, however, and the presents to the world, is of course a major danger to the help that communities such as the one he represents and future of the middle east, just as we are trying to make mentions can offer will be of enormous benefit at a time progress in the middle east peace process and to bring like this. together a peace conference on Syria. It is deeply unhelpful across the board. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Does the Minister agree that the treatment of Christians is the canary in Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Given the mine for the treatment of other minority faiths and that reciprocity has been a sticking point in previous ethnic groups—especially, in the case of Pakistan, the nuclear talks with Iran, with, perhaps, opportunities Hazaras and Ahmadis—and will he press the Pakistani missed by both sides, what thought has been given by 747 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 748 the west to making a gesture of good will as a first call with him earlier this month. As the right hon. move, perhaps with a relief of sanctions—time-limited Gentleman will know, we have agreed to appoint non- if necessary—given that such a move might reinforce resident chargés as a step up in our bilateral relations. the hand of the moderates within the country? We are, as he can gather, busily engaged in these nuclear negotiations and our officials will meet bilaterally again Mr Hague: Substantive changes in our policy on in the margins of the negotiations. Of course we have to sanctions will require substantive changes in Iran’s nuclear conduct ourselves cautiously on something of such programme, of course. Negotiations took place in Geneva immense importance as Iran’s nuclear programme, but on 15 and 16 October and a further round of such there is no lack of readiness to engage with Iran and to negotiations is now planned for 7 and 8 November, the open up our diplomacy to them. end of next week. We welcome the improved tone and posture of Iran in those serious negotiations, but it will 15. [900744] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): My right have to take serious and real steps for us to be able to hon. Friend might have seen the BBC “Newsnight” reciprocate. report last night showing that there has been strong Iranian intervention to support the Assad regime. If it Iran (Nuclear Programme) is wrong for the west to intervene militarily to stop mass murder in Syria, would it not be right for the 7. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) United Nations to condemn Iran for supporting the (LD): What recent assessment he has made of the Assad Government? prospects for successful negotiations with Iran on its nuclear programme. [900734] Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is right to say that foreign intervention in Syria—directly so in the case of Iran—is The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth helping to prop up a regime that is engaged in the brutal Affairs (Mr William Hague): I welcome the more positive murder of huge numbers of its own people. That is now approach taken by the Iranian Government at the recent well known around the whole world. That policy will E3 plus 3 talks in Geneva. Foreign Minister Zarif have to change if Iran is to play a constructive role in presented a basis for negotiations and we have begun bringing peace to Syria. more substantive discussions on how to address the serious concerns about the nuclear programme. If Iran Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): In the discussions is willing to take the necessary first steps on its programme, with Iran, has the issue of a nuclear weapons-free we are ready to take proportionate steps in return. middle east been raised? When it came up at the nuclear non-proliferation review conference, Iran supported that Simon Hughes: I am grateful for the constructive principle. A conference that would include Israel has reply from the Foreign Secretary. Given that Lakhdar been envisaged. Does the Foreign Secretary have any Brahimi, the UN and Arab League peace envoy on plans for such a conference, and any news on when it Syria, has recently said that Iran’s participation in the might take place? Geneva talks would be fruitful, natural and necessary, will the Foreign Secretary consider an invitation to him Mr Hague: We do have plans for that. The hon. to help in that process and in the negotiations with Iran Gentleman and I have discussed this matter before and, on nuclear weapons? as he knows, the United Kingdom was instrumental in putting a commitment to such a conference into the Mr Hague: It will ultimately be up to the UN to nuclear non-proliferation review in 2010. A Finnish decide who can be brought around the table in a Geneva facilitator has been hard at work trying to assemble the peace conference. I have already discussed Iran’s approach conference. The atmosphere in the middle east has not to Syria with the Iranian Foreign Minister and have put exactly been conducive to doing so, but the United it to him that it is time that Iran accepted—along with Kingdom will continue to press for that conference to Russia and many other non-western countries—that be brought together. last year’s Geneva communiqué is the basis for discussing the future of Syria and that we are out together to Syria create a transitional Government and bring the conflict to an end. Iran has not yet indicated that; it would be very helpful were it to do so. 8. Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the effects of the Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): conflict in Syria on stability in the region. [900736] Notwithstanding the many problems that there have been between our two countries, there are people on The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth both sides of the House who thought that the initial Affairs (Mr William Hague): The situation in Syria is response from the Government to the change in tone worsening. There are now more than 2 million refugees from Iran was overly cautious. Surely this situation putting severe strains on neighbouring countries. One warrants a little risk. To what degree is the Foreign third of the UK’s £500 million humanitarian funding Secretary prepared to travel to try to solve, if at all for Syria will go to Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey and Iraq, possible, this ongoing situation? and we are redoubling our efforts to find a political solution to the crisis. Mr Hague: We are all prepared to go a long way to resolve this problem and have indicated that in the Julie Elliott: What specific request for humanitarian direct discussions with Iran. I have already had two assistance have the Government received from the Lebanese meetings with the Iranian Foreign Minister and a telephone and Jordanian Governments? 749 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 750

Mr Hague: They have requested large-scale assistance Mr Hague: The reason the Syrian National Coalition to deal with the huge refugee population. Syrian refugees was here in London last week and why the hon. Gentleman now make up roughly one fifth and one twelfth of the was able to meet it was that it had come to meet me and total populations of Lebanon and Jordan respectively. 10 other Foreign Ministers to discuss going to the The total assistance that we give to Lebanon has gone Geneva talks. That was the whole purpose of the day! past £70 million, and we also give tens of millions to The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that the full Jordan, so a great deal of British assistance is going to body of the national coalition has not yet taken the those countries. We are the second biggest donor in the decision on that. It has to convene a general assembly to world to the Syrian humanitarian crisis. do so, and the date for it keeps shifting; it is now most likely to be towards the end of next week, around Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): May 9 November. It did receive a clear message from me and I put it to my right hon. Friend that, despite his great from many other Foreign Ministers, including Secretary personal effort—on which I warmly congratulate him—to Kerry and Prince Saud, the Foreign Minister of Saudi try to bring about a successful Geneva II conference on Arabia, that it should be prepared to go to Geneva and Syria, it is unlikely to make much real progress unless to take part in a peace conference. all sides are involved: not only Iran but the Alawites? I ask him to reflect on the success of the Geneva conference Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con) rose— of 1954, which against all expectations put an end to the Indochina war, in which enormous casualties were Mr Speaker: We need to speed up; progress is desperately suffered by France. Anthony Eden insisted, despite the slow. strong opposition of John Foster Dulles, that all sides UK Exports should be present. Why cannot my right hon. Friend do the same? 9. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): What progress his Department has made on increasing UK exports to Mr Speaker: It was around that time that the right established and emerging markets. [900737] hon. Gentleman was personal assistant to the said Sir Anthony Eden. It is modesty only that prevents him The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth from pointing out that fact to the House, but I have Office (Mr Hugo Swire): Between 2009 and 2012, UK done so in his stead. exports increased by 23% in the wake of the deepest recession in post-war history. This growth has primarily Mr Hague: There are certainly lessons to be learned been driven by demand in emerging markets. In South from 1954—and, indeed, from other successful peace Korea, exports have risen by 103%; in China, excluding negotiations—and the process does require all sides to Hong Kong, by 80%; in Russia by 76% and in Brazil by be ready to make the necessary compromises for peace. 64%. Exports to the US increased by more than 8% between We would base a Geneva peace conference on the 2010 and 2012, although UK exports to the EU were outcome of our talks in Geneva last year, with the aim flat. of creating a transitional Government with full executive Guto Bebb: I thank the Minister for his response. authority, made up of figures from the regime and from During the past decade, the value of bilateral trade the opposition in Syria, by mutual consent. Of course it between the UK and Israel has increased by over 60% to is envisaged that Alawites would be represented in any about £3.8 billion. It gives me particular pleasure to regime delegation to such a conference, as my right hon. note that the trade between Wales and Israel with Friend has suggested. respect to life sciences is doing extremely well. As a Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Foreign result of these facts, will the Minister join me in welcoming Secretary has referred to the large amounts of aid given this growth in trade between the UK and Israel—a by the UK and the US to help the humanitarian refugee country that is forward looking in its economic performance. crisis in the middle east, but in a recent meeting the Mr Swire: We greatly welcome the flourishing of Jordanian interior Minister contrasted the amount UK-Israel trade, which is the result of concerted efforts committed by the UK and the US to the amount by the Government, including, as my hon. Friend said, actually delivered on the ground. Will the right hon. the creation of the UK-Israel tech hub, which celebrated Gentleman comment and clarify whether the money to its second anniversary this month, and our burgeoning help with the refugee crisis is getting through? co-operation with Israel in respect of life sciences, which was cemented in an memorandum of understanding on Mr Hague: The UK has a very strong record of science co-operation, signed by my right hon. Friend delivering our assistance, and I am not aware of any the Foreign Secretary during his recent visit to Israel in dissatisfaction on the part of Jordan, although I will May. discuss these matters with His Majesty the King of Jordan tomorrow, so I will check whether there is any Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Half of Scotland’s further assistance or more rapid delivery of it that we trade is with the rest of the UK, and half of the UK’s can provide to Jordan over the coming weeks. trade is with the rest of Europe. Will the Minister outline the benefits Scotland gets from the wider exports Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): We all agree that progress that the UK does with the world and the economic at the Geneva II talks is vital to stability in the region, benefits that that brings for my constituents and others but when I spoke to the Syrian National Coalition last in Scotland? week it told me that it had not yet decided whether to attend the talks. Will the Foreign Secretary tell us what Mr Swire: Yes, with both pleasure and conviction. efforts he is making to ensure that it is in the room for Scotland benefits from being part of the UK in this the vital discussions that are needed? renaissance of trade that the UK is undergoing. I must 751 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 752 point to a recent fabulous article in Le Monde, which Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Britain said we can now predict sustainable future growth—gone is very much open for business, and it is in China’s are fears of repeated recessions and new injections of interest to invest in it. According to official Chinese liquidity. The jobs market and consumer confidence are statistics, the United Kingdom is now the most popular both improving—improving for the United Kingdom destination in Europe for Chinese investment, and the and improving for Scotland, as well as for England, fourth most popular globally. Last year, our own exports Wales and Northern Ireland. to China hit £1 billion a month for the first time.

Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): What Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Some of the ministerial conclusions does the Minister draw from the fact that delegations included British business men so that the exports from some countries outside the EU to the EU case could be made for British business. How many of are increasing more rapidly than our own? them were of Chinese origin? Mr Swire: My right hon. Friend will be aware of my earlier comment that trade with the EU has been adversely Mr Hague: I do not have that information at my affected by the downturn in the EU economy. I think fingertips, but I imagine that quite a few of them were. I what it shows is the flexibility of the British economy, will write to the right hon. Gentleman with the details. not least because we did not join the euro and because What I can say is that we have built a tremendous this Government have a more determined approach to relationship—in both directions—with China, founded driving exports globally, both with our existing partners on the activities of Chinese business men and British and in emerging markets. business people of Chinese origin, and we will continue to do so. John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): The British embassy in Washington part-sponsored a state-by-state LGBT Community (Russia) study of jobs in the United States that are linked to exports and the potential gains from a comprehensive EU-US trade and investment deal. No such study has 11. Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): What recent been carried out in relation to the United Kingdom. discussions he has had with the Russian Government Will the Government commission a similar area-by-area regarding violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual and analysis of British jobs, output and exports? transgender people in Russia. [900740]

Mr Swire: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My point. I shall certainly look into it, and I should be right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign happy to discuss it with him in more detail. British Secretary discussed our concern about those attacks trade with the United States remains incredibly important. when they met their Russian opposite numbers last I will not rehearse the statistics again, but we have been month. vulnerable to the rather changeable circumstances in the domestic UK economy of late. Jenny Chapman: As the Minister knows, there is China significant and growing concern in this country about violence in particular but also about the banning of certain publications, and about threats to remove children 10. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): What from LGBT couples. Will he consider raising the issue assessment he has made of opportunities for the UK with the Council of Europe? arising from recent ministerial delegations to China. [900738] Mr Lidington: We will certainly consider raising, at every possible opportunity, our concern both about The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Russian legislation on the matter and about what is, Affairs (Mr William Hague): Recent visits by my right inevitably, anecdotal evidence of appalling attacks on hon. Friends the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the individual LGBT Russian citizens and civil society Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and organisations. the Secretary of State for Transport highlighted the huge potential of the UK-China relationship. Their visits achieved significant breakthroughs in relation to Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Does the civil nuclear co-operation, low-carbon partnerships, financial Minister agree that, while these attacks are quite services, transport and inward investment. outrageous—as is the fact that the Russian Government seem to be legislating towards such behaviour—it is Duncan Hames: I welcome that news, and, in particular, better to engage with Russia than to boycott events if the jobs that the investment will bring. Perhaps most we are to bring about change? significant is the fact that Britain will be the first country outside China to have its own renminbi investment Mr Lidington: I agree with my hon. Friend both quota, which will establish London as a leading centre about the importance of making our views clear and for renminbi trading. Does the Foreign Secretary agree about the importance of engagement. Our diplomats that this success is founded on our open society and our who are stationed in Russia make a point of attending long record of promoting open economies, and meetings of civil society organisations, including LGBT demonstrates to our partners in China that Britain is organisations, to demonstrate that we are standing up most certainly open for business? for the values in which we believe. 753 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 754

Iran (Child Executions) Mr Swire: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are aware of the detention of Mr Ballesteros. He was detained 12. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What recent reports on 25 August. Our ambassador to Colombia wrote to his Department has received on child executions in the Colombian prosecutor-general on 28 August Iran. [900741] highlighting our interest in the case and requesting information on the charges. Staff at our embassy in The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Bogota are seeking permission to visit Mr Ballesteros in Office (Hugh Robertson): We receive regular reports on prison. the human rights situation in Iran, including information Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) about executions. Executions for crimes committed by (Con): The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire people under the age of 18 are a breach of international North (Jim Sheridan) does much to champion the cause law, and the UK opposes the use of the death penalty as of Colombian trade unions, but does the Minister agree a matter of principle. that it is more important to protect British citizens from the flow of illegal drugs from Colombia, and will he John Howell: According to leading human rights therefore tell the House what discussions he has had groups, Iran has the shameful record of being the with the Colombian narcotics team about how to stop world’s largest executioner of juvenile offenders. What this flow of illegal and damaging drugs? representations can the Government make to ensure that that barbaric practice ends, in accordance with the Mr Speaker: Order. I think not, actually. That is a country’s obligations under the convention on the rights very important matter, but it does not directly relate to of the child? human rights or peace talks. The Minister of State requires no encouragement, and on this occasion I do Hugh Robertson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. not wish to offer him any. This country has, under the EU sanctions regime, helped Overseas British Risk Register designate over 80 human rights violators in Iran, and, of course, helped establish the UN special rapporteur 14. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): When he on Iran’s human rights and lobbied for his mandate to plans to issue guidance to UK businesses through the be renewed at the March UN human rights council. overseas business risk register on trade with illegal settlements. [900743] Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): Is the Minister aware of growing concern about the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth human and civil rights of Baha’is in Iran and, in particular, Office (Hugh Robertson): We will update our online about the UN special rapporteur’s report? What action guidance for citizens and businesses on overseas markets, does he intend to take? including Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, in the coming weeks, in line with the UK action plan on Hugh Robertson: I thank the hon. Lady for raising business and human rights. that point. I am absolutely aware of that concern, which is a key concern of the UN special rapporteur. As I said Ann McKechin: I thank the Minister for his reply, but in answer to the previous question, our country lobbied may I ask him urgently to review the documentation on extremely hard to ensure that the mandate was extended the UK Trade & Investment website’s “Doing Business for a further year and will do so again in the future in Israel” section, which, according to Oxfam, encourages precisely so that these concerns can be addressed. British businesses to invest in settlements in the Jordan valley by giving details of Israeli grants available for Colombia settlements business? Hugh Robertson: Yes, I will certainly look at the 13. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) guidance the hon. Lady mentions. The UK Government’s (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the policy on this is very clear: settlements are illegal and Colombian Government regarding human rights and they are an obstacle to peace, but we work in concert peace talks in that country. [900742] with our EU partners in producing guidelines that affect this issue. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire): The Prime Minister, Foreign Topical Questions Secretary and I met President Santos during his visit to London in June and discussed a range of subjects, Mr Speaker: May I remind Members to ask pithy including the peace process and its potential to improve questions and Ministers to provide pithy answers, because respect for human rights. Officials from our embassy in there is a lot of interest and I am keen to accommodate Colombia regularly make representations to the Colombian Members? Government on human rights cases. T1. [900753] Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): If he will make a statement on his departmental Jim Sheridan: The Minister of State recently told the responsibilities. House he would make representations to the Colombian Government regarding the arrest of leading trade unionist The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Huber Ballesteros. Will the Minister update us on what Affairs (Mr William Hague): Today I am hosting the progress has been made, including a possible visit to World Islamic Economic Forum. This is the first time it Mr Ballesteros in prison, and what does he think the has ever been held outside an Islamic country and Asia, future holds for trade unionists and others in terms of reflecting London’s growing position as a major centre human rights in Colombia? for Islamic finance. 755 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 756

Stephen Gilbert: Prageeth Eknaligoda is a Sri Lankan a cut on the budget for the European Union; and in political cartoonist who has disappeared. Both I and getting us out of the bail-out mechanism to which his pupils at St Austell’s Penrice community college will be Government committed us. That is a fine track record interested to learn what my right hon. Friend knows on which to look forward with high hopes for the about his whereabouts and whether he will raise this future. matter with the Sri Lankan authorities. T5. [900757] Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth (Con): The UN envoy, Mr Brahimi, is in Syria today Office (Mr Hugo Swire): We regret that Mr Eknaligoda’s and he has said that President Assad can play a whereabouts are still not known more than three years constructive role in the transition in Syria. The Friends after his disappearance. We have made clear to the of Syria group has said that President Assad can play Government of Sri Lanka the need to take decisive no role in the transition, so what is the UK’s position action to guarantee press freedom, including by investigating on whether he can play any such role? attacks on the media and disappearances and ensuring those responsible are brought to justice. The forthcoming Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Mr Hague: It was agreed in Geneva last year that a Colombo will be our opportunity to shine a spotlight transitional Government in Syria would have full executive on this and other matters. authority, and that it would be formed from regime and opposition “by mutual consent”. That phrase is very Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire important; I do not think anyone can envisage circumstances South) (Lab): Last week, I had the great privilege of in which opposition groups in Syria would give their meeting Aung San Suu Kyi, following her discussions consent to President Assad being part of that transitional with Government Ministers. She impressed upon me Government. the urgency of the international community seeking to put pressure on the Burmese Government to reform the T4. [900756] Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) constitution in Burma. I would be grateful if the Foreign (Lab/Co-op): Rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza have Secretary would set out what steps the Government resumed, and Hamas threatens to restart suicide anticipate taking to achieve that goal. attacks. Will the Minister condemn the statement from the leader of Hamas that the Palestinians should Mr Hague: Aung San Suu Kyi was very clear about withdraw from peace talks and launch a third intifada? these things in all the meetings she had, including the Does he believe that the Palestinian Authority are one with EU Foreign Ministers in Luxembourg last sufficiently strong and well motivated to resist that call? Monday. These are issues that we have taken up for some time with the Government in Burma, including Mr Hague: I believe that the Palestinian Authority directly with President Thein Sein on his visit to the UK are certainly well motivated—that is a good way to put earlier this year. Of course, we are continuing to raise it. I believe that President Abbas is a courageous man of them, as there is an urgency about constitutional change peace, and he has taken many risks and overcome much ahead of elections in Burma in 2015. So we will continue opposition in order to get back into the peace process to raise them over the coming weeks directly with and into negotiations with Israel. I absolutely condemn Burmese Ministers. any encouragement to him to do anything other than that, and Hamas for saying that that should cease. We T3. [900755] Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) want to see those negotiations continue over the coming (LD): We have heard today about the strength of the weeks and bring success. trade relationship between this country and Israel. Will the Government use the influence that that relationship T6. [900758] David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): brings to make progress on peace, particularly in Much of the instability in various parts of the world is relation to the settlements? caused by volatile and high food prices, a driver of which is the conversion of agricultural land into The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth biodiesel, a practice described by the United Nations Office (Hugh Robertson): Yes, of course, we will. As I last year as a crime against humanity. What discussions said in answer to an earlier question, there is now a have the Government had with the EU to encourage it moment of hope—or perhaps I should say opportunity— to drop its 6% target on sources which could and that has not been there for some years. I am visiting the should be food? region for the first time next week and will certainly do what the hon. Gentleman urges. Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend is right to identify this T2. [900754] Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Which as an important issue. Our colleagues in the Department competences will the Government seek to repatriate of Energy and Climate Change have the lead on it, and from the European Union? I will make sure that their attention is drawn to his comments. I assure him that they take the issue particularly The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): What seriously. the Government have already shown in their three and a half years in office is that they have been able to bring T8. [900760] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) powers back to this country: through the reform of the (Lab): What discussions is the Foreign Secretary having fisheries policy, which has abolished the practice of with European Governments, particularly the Italian discarding that the hon. Gentleman’s Government tried Government, about the tragedy unfolding in the and failed to reform in their 13 years in office; in getting Mediterranean as a result of refugees drowning? 757 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 758

Mr Hague: Yes, we have already had discussions with set by the treaty that forces the Commission to reconsider the Italian Government. The Italian Foreign Minister, its original proposal. I wish all strength to the arm of Emma Bonino, was here on Friday and that, of course, national Parliaments in continuing to use those powers was one of the subjects we discussed. In addition, the to the full. Prime Minister has discussed it with his counterparts in the European Council. It is important that European Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): I countries work effectively together on this matter and, am sure that this House has every confidence in the in particular, that we work to help Libya, for instance, Foreign Secretary to represent the Government at CHOGM to secure its land borders. The insecurity of those and the Prime Minister should clearly make a gesture borders is causing a lot of the problem for the maritime and stay away. When he is making representations, will borders of EU states. the Foreign Secretary seek the signature of the Sri Lankan Government to the declaration of commitment Mr Speaker: I call Mr David Ruffley—not here. to end sexual violence in conflict?

Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): Many of my Mr Hague: I seek that all over the world. It is my constituents are concerned about human rights abuses declaration, which I proposed at the margins of the UN not just in the north of Sri Lanka but in the east. They General Assembly, and I am pleased that, by the middle are also concerned that the visit by the Commonwealth of this month, 134 countries had signed it. Sri Lanka is Heads will somehow legitimise that desperate reality. exactly the sort of country we want to add its signature Will the Secretary of State undertake to leave the Sri to it, so I will press the Government hard on that Lankan authorities in absolutely no doubt that that is subject at the margins of CHOGM. not the case? Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Is a Mr Hague: Yes, absolutely. My hon. Friend is quite judicial system that encompasses stoning for adultery, right. The authorities are in no doubt about our position severance of limbs for theft and flogging for alcohol as things stand, as I explained to the House earlier. consumption compatible with membership of the They will be left in no doubt by me, the Prime Minister Commonwealth and is it something that the Foreign and the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary intends to raise with the sultanate of Brunei Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for East at CHOGM? Devon (Mr Swire), on our visit to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. Mr Swire: We are aware of the announcement of the phased introduction of criminal sharia law in Brunei Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): What assessment and are looking into what that means. I shall be raising has the Secretary of State made of an independent the issue with the Deputy Foreign Minister of Brunei, Scotland’s place in Europe and the world compared Pehin Lim, in London tomorrow. with the advantage that Scotland derives from being part of a strong United Kingdom? Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Have Ministers considered using the large number of influential Mr Hague: Scotland derives enormous benefit, of Russians who live in London in their efforts to persuade course, from being part of the United Kingdom and the the Russian Government to take a more liberal line on United Kingdom benefits enormously from Scotland’s human rights? being part of it. It is important to understand that if Scotland left the United Kingdom, it would also be Mr Lidington: We are prepared to consider all appropriate leaving the organisations of which the United Kingdom opportunities to ensure that we influence the Russian is a member, including the European Union. authorities for the better on human rights. I would not rule out the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion, although it T9. [900762] Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and depends a little on which individual we are talking East Thurrock) (Con): I thank the Minister for his about. answer to my earlier question. May I now encourage him to congratulate not just this House on issuing a Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): Democratic elections yellow card to the Commission’s proposal for a in the Maldives were suspended nearly two months ago. European public prosecutor but the Parliaments of What are the Government doing to make sure that these France, Hungary, Ireland, the Netherlands, the Czech elections take place? Republic, Sweden, Romania, Slovenia and Cyprus? Does that not show the value of national Parliament’s Mr Hague: It is very important that these elections power to tell the Commission to stop interfering and is are now allowed to take place. The legal actions that there not a case to go— have been taken to try to stop the elections and to stop the second round going ahead after a successful and Mr Speaker: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman well-regarded first round of elections have increasingly should seek an Adjournment debate—but it might take looked just like attempts to disrupt the elections and to him some weeks to get it. prevent the people of the Maldives from being able to have their democratic say. The strong statement that I Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention issued on this on 19 October has, I think, been noticed to the fact that the deployment of the yellow card as in the Maldives. We hope the authorities there will now regards the European public prosecutor’s office is the allow an election to go ahead that will be able to second time that the number of national Parliaments determine freely and democratically the presidency of submitting reasoned opinions has passed the threshold the Maldives. 759 Oral Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Oral Answers 760

Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): What representations particularly as they relate to Somalia. But most Somali has the Foreign Secretary made to the Burmese Government remittances are made through small scale businesses on the recent violence in Kachin state, which makes that operate in cash and do not have bank accounts. constitutional reform that much more urgent? They will therefore be unaffected by a commercial decision by Barclays bank. However, the Government Mr Hague: Again, this is one of the subjects that we are taking the decision seriously. The Treasury, which is discuss regularly with the Burmese Government and, leading on this matter, the Department for International indeed, that we discussed with Aung San Suu Kyi on her Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office visit last week. Progress has been made, of course, in are working to find a solution, and DFID is developing bringing ceasefires into effect in ethnic conflicts, but the a pilot project to help secure international remittance conflict in Kachin state has been the most serious in channels. recent times so it is always very high on the agenda for our discussions with Burmese Ministers. Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): Everyone will have been appalled by the tragedy which Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Small businesses produce occurred off Lampedusa recently. Many of those who the kind of niche products that are well received in died were Eritreans fleeing one of the most repressive export markets, but they often lack the expertise and states in Africa. What steps are the Government taking confidence to sell abroad. What steps is the Department to try to improve governance in Eritrea to reduce the taking to assist and encourage smaller businesses in push factor? particular? Mark Simmonds: My hon. Friend is right to raise this important issue, but it is not solely an Eritrean problem, Mr Swire: I think I am right in saying that since the although he is right to point out that Eritrea continues formation of this coalition Government, we have had a to violate its international obligations and domestic law net gain of more than 400,000 small businesses, which is and has taken no steps to improve its human rights a tremendous success. My hon. Friend is correct. We record. It also needs to be said that poor governance, need to do more to encourage small businesses to corruption and a lack of economic development are export. It is incumbent on all of us in the House to fundamental drivers for the sort of migration that we encourage our local businesses to raise their game. With saw and the terrible tragedies. I can assure my hon. respect to UK Trade & Investment, the reconfiguration Friend that we in the Foreign Office will continue to of the British chambers of commerce initiative is designed work to try to improve all those aspects to limit the to help small businesses, but each of us has a part to necessity for migration. play in making sure that our small and medium-sized enterprises grow into large export businesses, which are Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): so important for the economy. Will the Foreign Secretary update the House on the work of the chemical weapons inspectors in Syria, and Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Barclays will he say when he expects the destruction of precursor bank made the decision to end banking facilities for chemicals to begin? money transfer companies such as Dahabshiil and that decision will devastate countries such as Somalia. Will Mr Hague: This work is going reasonably well so far. the Foreign Secretary take this opportunity to speak up The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons and explain what he will do to try to prevent the closure staff have had access to 21 of 23 sites that have been of this legitimate route of money transfer to a country identified. The actual destruction of munitions and of that depends on it for its security and to achieve production equipment for chemical munitions has been transformation there? taking place. Based on the submission made by the Syrian regime on 27 October—just a couple of days The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign ago—decisions now need to be made about the resources and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): Iam needed and the timetable for the destruction of all grateful for the hon. Lady’s question. She is right to chemical stocks, including precursors. That programme make the point that remittances are extremely important, will be put together by the middle of November. 761 29 OCTOBER 2013 Licensed Hackney Carriages and 762 Private hire Vehicles (CCTV) Licensed Hackney Carriages and Private that we bring in this measure so that other people do Hire Vehicles (Closed Circuit Television) not have to go through the suffering that I and my family have gone through.” Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23) The dangers faced by taxi drivers were also brought into sharp relief when a friend of mine who works for 24-7 Cars was held at knife point between Bedford and 12.34 pm Luton. He managed to escape only because he was smart enough to realise that there was a police car Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I beg to move, parked at a petrol station he was approaching. He rolled That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the installation out of the taxi, sustaining injuries, and the taxi came to of closed circuit television in licensed hackney carriages and a halt. The two perpetrators of the crime got out and private hire vehicles; to establish a minimum standard for such were chased by two police officers. One of those idiots installations; and for connected purposes. threw a knife at the police officers and the other turned Like many right hon. and hon. Members on both a gun on them, but the officers bravely dodged the knife sides of the House, I am sceptical about the value of the and one of them knocked the gun away. I am pleased to pervasiveness of CCTV in our lives and in our communities, say that our chief constable was prepared to take all but I wish to explain to the House why I believe that its necessary measures to ensure that those criminals faced provision in private hire vehicles and taxis is warranted the full force of justice. and justified. For too long our private hire and taxi drivers have been treated like second-class citizens. Indeed, This Bill proposes to provide for secure and encrypted they are an overlooked community when it comes to CCTV in taxi cabs. It is important from the point of personal safety. Yet they are an essential part of our view of privacy that the information is secure and public transport system, for in many towns across the encrypted. It should also be accessible by the police country, who is going to take people home in the only in circumstances in which a crime is reported to evenings? It will be a private hire cab or a licensed taxi. have been committed. The system should be mandatory, However, the safety provided in those circumstances is because then the citizen would know that it was being below that provided in other forms of public transport. used when they got into a taxi cab. If the take-up were It is the most trusting of circumstances: one, two or voluntary rather than mandatory, people would not three people in a single vehicle late at night, with know exactly what type of safety provision was in use. nothing to provide any evidence if a crime is committed. Councils around the country have seen the value of introducing a mandatory system over a voluntary one. The types of crime that are committed run the gamut, from theft to racial abuse and assault. Many of our taxi There is a question about whether CCTV should drivers are drawn from ethnic minorities. Racial abuse, provide just video coverage or audio coverage as well. wherever it happens, is unacceptable. In Doncaster, taxi This issue was subject to an Information Commissioner drivers requested that the local council bring in CCTV review involving Southampton council earlier this year. because they were concerned about the incidence of The consequence was not to ban audio recording outright, racial abuse. They noted a significant decline in racial but to say that it could be provided only in a panic abuse following the introduction of CCTV. Theft is situation—a short burst of audio at the particular point almost thought of as a cost of doing business. We when a driver felt a crime was being committed. I should consider what it must be like for a taxi driver believe that that is the correct approach. when two or three people they have driven home simply refuse to pay. What evidence does the driver have that a There are also issues with costs. The last thing I crime has been committed? What power does he or she would wish as a result of this Bill is to place additional have to stop those people perpetrating that crime? There costs on drivers. We do not ask bus drivers to pay for is little ability to stop the crime and little evidence that it the CCTV that protects them, and nor should we ask has happened. The number of assaults that occur in taxi drivers to pay for their own personal safety while disputes between drivers and passengers is horrifying, they ply their trade. Southampton has built on its work and occasionally they lead to murder. with the Information Commissioner and has a very Having CCTV in taxis is about providing safety not good approach to covering costs: the council covers the only for drivers but for passengers, because there are cost of the camera and the taxi drivers are responsible sometimes instances of passengers attacking each other for the maintenance and installation of the system. in the back of taxis. In my conversations with the That also allows the driver to recoup their costs through Metropolitan police, I was interested to hear that they insurance reductions, because CCTV is able to look regard the provision of CCTV in taxis and private hire outside as well as inside the vehicle and can therefore be vehicles as helpful in cases of sexual assault or rape that used as evidence in claims when crashes or whiplash are occur after people have been taken by taxi to a place of caused. In such circumstances, I believe that the costs residence. that would fall on the drivers would be negligible at best. Those are some general examples, but I have been moved to seek to bring in this Bill by specific examples This Bill seeks to provide a level of security for our in my constituency. A year ago one of my constituents, taxi drivers that is long overdue. Workers in other Mehar Dhariwal, was murdered. His murder brought high-risk transport situations already benefit from it into sharp relief the dangers that men and women in and I believe it would have a significant impact. A US our taxis can be under when they are put in situations of study recently compared the effect of measures such as risk. I met his widow, Mrs Dhariwal, last weekend. CCTV and barriers between the driver and passengers. Although her loss can never be made up for, her It found that only one method contributed to a significant encouragement to me was to say, “Richard, it’s important reduction in crimes against drivers, and that was CCTV. 763 Licensed Hackney Carriages and 29 OCTOBER 2013 764 Private hire Vehicles (CCTV) This Bill has many benefits, but to my mind the most Point of Order important is that it will start to give respect to our taxi drivers and stop people treating them as second-class citizens. 12.44 pm Question put and agreed to. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): On a Ordered, point of order, Mr Speaker. Has the Secretary of State for Transport indicated that he intends to make a statement That Richard Fuller, Meg Hillier, Mr Adam Holloway, to the House on the fourth revised version of the Siobhain McDonagh, Stephen McPartland and Priti justification for High Speed 2? I heard him say on the Patel present the Bill. television this morning that the £50 billion was perfectly Richard Fuller accordingly presented the Bill. justified and that he was producing a report for Parliament. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on However, as far as I can make out, there has been no Friday 8 November, and to be printed (Bill 121). report to Parliament.

Mr Speaker: I have received no indication that the Secretary of State intends to make a statement to the House on that matter. However, the House will be treating of these issues on Thursday. I expect that a significant number of Members will wish to contribute to that debate and I fancy that the right hon. Gentleman might be among them.

Frank Dobson: Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I am not sure that there is anything further, but the right hon. Gentleman is an immensely senior Member and I must give him the benefit of the doubt.

Frank Dobson: The proceedings on Report are likely to be fairly specific to the amendments that are tabled, whereas what needs to be discussed is the new financial justification for the scheme. I suspect that it will be rather difficult to discuss that and to remain in order on Thursday.

Mr Speaker: I note the point that the right hon. Gentleman makes. I am advised that there is a written ministerial statement, although I readily recognise that that will not satisfy him because it does not afford an opportunity for oral questioning. I have got the point that he wishes to hear a spoken justification from a Minister, however senior, and to have the opportunity to question them on the matter. If the right hon. Gentleman is in his place and seeks to catch my eye, he might find favour. I hope that that satisfies him for now. 765 29 OCTOBER 2013 766

PENSIONS BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2) Pensions Bill Ordered, Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill That the Order of 17 June 2013 (Pensions Bill (Programme)) Committee be varied as follows: (1) Paragraphs (4) and (5) of the Order shall be omitted. New Clause 1 (2) Proceedings on Consideration shall be taken in the order WORK-BASED SCHEMES: POWER TO RESTRICT CHARGES shown in the first column of the following Table. OR IMPOSE REQUIREMENTS (3) The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) ‘Schedule [Work-based schemes: power to restrict charges or be brought to a conclusion at today’s sitting at the times specified impose requirements] permits the Secretary of State to make in the second column of the Table. regulations— (a) restricting the charges that may be imposed on members TABLE of certain work-based pension schemes; (b) imposing requirements relating to administration or Time for conclusion governance that must be satisfied in relation to certain Proceedings of proceedings work-based pension schemes.’.—(Steve Webb.) Brought up, and read the First time. New clauses and new Schedules relating to, 4.30 pm and amendments to, Part 4. 12.47 pm New clauses and new Schedules relating to 6.00 pm The Minister of State, Department for Work and state pension credit; New clauses and new Pensions (Steve Webb): I beg to move, That the clause be Schedules relating to, and amendments to, Part 1; new clauses and new Schedules relating read a Second time. to, and amendments to, Part 2; new clauses Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss and new Schedules relating to, and amendments to, Part 3; remaining proceedings the following: on Consideration. Amendment (a) to Government new clause 1, line 6 (4) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not at end add— previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at today’s ‘(2) In this section— sitting at 7.00pm.—(Steve Webb.) (a) “charges”; and (b) “transaction costs” shall be defined in regulations by the Secretary of State. (3) Before making regulations under subsection (2), the Secretary of State must undertake a public consultation, which must include the views of— (a) the Financial Conduct Authority; and (b) the Pensions Regulator. (4) With reference to paragraph (2)(a), any public consultation must consider the different elements which comprise charges and not just the annual management charge. (5) Such charges, together with any transaction costs incurred by the funds in which qualifying schemes are invested, shall be declared on an annual basis to the Pensions Regulator, which shall maintain a public register thereof. (6) The Secretary of State shall by regulations set the standards by which pension schemes must declare charges and transaction costs for the purposes of the register and for declaration to their members and their members’ employers. (7) The standards set out in regulations under subsection (6) shall be reviewed every three years. (8) The Secretary of State shall have power to make regulations ordering other disclosure arrangements on administration charges. (9) Regulations under this section may not be made unless a draft has been laid before and approved by resolution of both Houses of Parliament.’. New clause 7—Railways pension scheme— ‘(1) The Railways Act 1993 is amended as follows. (2) In Schedule 11 (Pensions), after paragraph 11 there is inserted— “Employers insolvency 11A (1) This paragraph applies if an insolvency event occurs in relation to the employer or former employer of a protected person. (2) Where this paragraph applies the Secretary of State shall become liable to discharge any liabilities in respect of relevant pension rights, to the extent that they are not discharged by the trustees of a new scheme in which the employer was a participating employer. 767 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 768

(3) For the purposes of this paragraph— ‘(1) The Secretary of State shall commission an independent (a) “insolvency event” has the meaning set out in section review of the implications of climate change and natural resource 121 of the Pensions Act 2004; constraints for the sustainability of private pensions. (b) “relevant pension rights” means the relevant pension (2) In particular, the review must consider the implications for rights referred to in paragraph 6(3) above. long-term investment outcomes for members of work-based 11B The duty referred to in paragraph 11A also applies if an pension schemes of potential— insolvency event has occurred in relation to the employer or (a) systemic risks posed by high levels of exposure to fossil former employer of a protected person on or after 1 October fuels and other carbon-intensive assets; 1994.”.’. (b) economic and physical impacts of climate change New clause 9—Fiduciary duty of independent trustees— under various climate mitigation scenarios; and (c) constraints on the availability of non-renewable ‘(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations— resources. (a) require any pension scheme, which is not already overseen by independent trustees, to appoint a board (3) In subsection (2)(c), “non-renewable resources” includes of independent trustees; and food, water, land and energy resources. (b) set out the powers and duties of a board appointed (4) A report of the review’s findings, including recommendations under paragraph (1)(a). to government, must be laid before Parliament no later than 30 October 2014. (2) Regulations under this section— (5) The government must lay before Parliament its response to (a) shall be made by statutory instrument; and the review’s recommendations no later than 30 January 2015.’. (b) may not be made unless a draft has been laid before Government new schedule 1—‘Work-based schemes: and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament. power to restrict charges or impose requirements. (3) The board of independent trustees shall have a fiduciary Amendment 38, in clause 29, page 15, line 24, leave duty towards members of the scheme overseen by them. out from ‘scheme’ to end of line. (4) The fiduciary duty set out in subsection (3) shall take precedence over any duty to— Government amendments 5 to 10. (a) the shareholders in, or Amendment 53, in clause 34, page 18, line 22, at end insert— (b) other owners of, ‘(5) Regulations under this section shall not exempt entire the operators of the scheme. classes of business or businesses, such as small and medium-sized (5) In relation to any matters of member interest, decisions of businesses, from automatic enrolment.’. the board of independent trustees shall be binding on the board Government amendment 11. of directors or other analogous management board of any undertaking operating a pension scheme.’. Amendment 54, in clause 42, page 23, line 7, at end add— New clause 10—Promotion of good value in scheme size— ‘“(czb) to promote, and to improve understanding of long-term and sustainable investment amongst work- ‘(1) The fiduciary duty of pension scheme trustees shall based pension schemes,”.’. include a duty to consider whether the scheme has sufficient scale Amendment 39, in schedule 16, page 84, line 37, leave to deliver good value for members. out from ‘of’ to ‘transfer’ in line 1 on page 85, and insert (2) Where trustees take the view that the scheme has insufficient scale, they must consider whether merger with another scheme ‘a transferable benefits scheme, the cash equivalent of the would be in the members’ interests. transferable benefits— ‘(a) is transferred to a nominated’. (3) The Pensions Regulator shall have power to direct merger of pensions schemes where it would be in the interests of the Amendment 40, page 85, line 3, leave out ‘automatic members of each of the relevant schemes for merger to take transfer’ and insert ‘transferable benefits’. place. Amendment 41, page 85, line 8, leave out from ‘an’ to (4) The Pensions Regulator shall exercise this power in accordance end of line 9, and insert with a methodology on which it has publicly consulted and which ‘a transferable benefits scheme, means a member of the scheme has been agreed with the Secretary of State. who is no longer having contributions made to their benefits.’. (5) The methodology set out in subsection (4) shall be kept Amendment 42, page 85, line 22, leave out sub-paragraph under regular review and revised when necessary, subject to (5) and insert— further consultation and agreement from the Secretary of State.’. ‘(5) In this Schedule “nominated transfer scheme” means— New clause 11—Decumulation— (a) a work-based pension scheme which is registered under ‘(1) Any qualifying money purchase scheme must direct its Chapter 2 of Part 4 of the Finance Act 2004 and is a savers to an independent annuity brokerage service or offer such money purchase scheme; a brokerage service itself. (b) a scheme in which the qualifying member is a member, (2) Pension schemes shall ensure that any brokerage service or that has been nominated by the member or the selected or provided meets best practice in terms of providing transferable benefits scheme for the purposes of members with— transferring pots; (a) an assisted path through the annuity process; (c) a pension scheme which meets quality standards as set out by the Secretary of State; (b) ensuring access to most annuity providers; and (d) a pension scheme that meets any other requirements (c) minimising costs. set out in regulations.’. (3) The standards meeting best practice on decumulation shall Amendment 43, page 85, line 38, leave out from be defined by the Pensions Regulator after public consultation. beginning to end of line 29 on page 87, and insert— (4) The standards set out in subsection (3) shall be reviewed ‘Transferable benefits scheme to transfer to nominated transfer every three years and, if required, updated.’. scheme New clause 12—Sustainability of private pensions: 2 (1) The regulations must require the trustees or managers of review of implications of climate change and natural a transferable benefits scheme to establish an agreement with a resource constraints— nominated transfer scheme to make provision— 769 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 770

(a) for the transfer of qualifying members’ benefits to the through all those issues to minimise or obviate as far as nominated transfer scheme; and is possible the need for me to return to the Dispatch Box (b) describing how and when steps are to be taken in order on this group. to effect the transfer. I should start on a note of consensus. This part of the (2) The regulations may make provision for a protocol through Bill deals with private pensions and I think that the which a transferable benefits scheme may establish an agreement House would agree that the process of automatic enrolment with a nominated transfer scheme. into workplace pensions is going exceptionally well. (3) The regulations must ensure that where the duty to transfer The process started a year ago. British industry has qualifying members’ benefits to a nominated transfer scheme, has arisen, the member may opt out of the transfer or identify an automatically enrolled about 1.7 million employees into alternative nominated transfer scheme to which the members’ workplace pensions. The rate of not opting out, or of benefits will be transferred.’. staying in, has been far better than anybody predicted. Amendment 44, page 88, line 25, at end insert— Our survey evidence suggests that of the order of nine in 10 workers have chosen to remain in their workplace ‘Nominated transfer schemes: quality requirements and pensions. That is something that we should all welcome. administration charges 10A (1) The regulations may impose requirements that must The Bill is designed to improve that situation further be satisfied by any nominated transfer scheme. and to deal with some unfinished business. Although (2) The requirements may in particular relate to— the principle of automatic enrolment was legislated for in the previous Parliament, many issues were not dealt (a) the governance of the scheme; with. If those are not dealt with, it will undermine the (b) the administration of the scheme; and success of automatic enrolment. (c) the certification of the scheme by the Regulator. Amendment 53 relates to the scope of automatic (3) The regulations may make provision limiting or prohibiting enrolment. Clause 34 gives the Government the power any administration charge that may otherwise be imposed on a to exclude some people from the employer duty for member of an automatic transfer scheme. automatic enrolment. I will give the House a flavour of (4) Regulations made because of sub-paragraph (3)— the sorts of people that we might be talking about. In (a) may make provision for the manner of, and criteria for, automatic enrolment, we have sought to strike a balance determining whether an administration charge between setting out the rules at the start and giving exceeds any limit or is prohibited; and employers and the industry certainty, and learning and (b) may provide for the determination to be made in listening and then changing the rules when we have got accordance with guidance issued from time to time something wrong or when something needs to be refined by the Secretary of State. or streamlined. We could have changed the rules and (5) The requirements that may be imposed, and the charges constantly tweaked things, or we could have said at the that may be limited or prohibited, because of this paragraph start, “These are the rules for the next five or six years need not relate to things done under the regulations.’. until everybody’s in. Go and deal with it”, but we tried Amendment 45, page 88, line 27, leave out paragraphs 11 to strike a balance. and 12. As we have learned, the rules require employers to Government amendment 28. put a certain set of people into workplace pensions who Amendment 55, page 88, line 38, at end insert— may immediately opt out. For example, people with ‘(c) the ability of the scheme to generate sustainable what is called enhanced or fixed tax protection status—high investment returns.’. net wealth individuals—could face a tax surcharge if Amendment 46, page 89, line 39, leave out ‘an automatic’ their pension pot exceeds the lifetime allowance. In and insert ‘a nominated’. general, such individuals will want to opt straight back out of the scheme, and their employers have said, “Why Amendment 47, page 90, line 1, leave out ‘current’. are you making us put these people into pension schemes? Amendment 48, page 90, line 2, after ‘member’, We all know they are going to opt out, and indeed they insert ‘in a nominated transfer scheme’. will be cross with us if they fail to opt out and later face Amendment 49, page 90, line 3, leave out sub- a tax penalty.” At the moment, the Government do not paragraph (2). have the power to enable firms not to enrol those Government amendment 29. people, so clause 34 provides the power to exempt them from enrolment. Amendment 50, page 91, leave out line 11. The second example concerns those who have already Amendment 51, page 91, line 21, at end insert given notice. Someone may have given a month’s notice, ‘“nominated transfer scheme” has the meaning given by but in the middle of that period the Government require sub-paragraph 1(5);’. the employer to put them in a pension scheme. As Amendment 52, page 91, leave out lines 36 and 37. Members will understand, that is silly, because that Government amendments 30, 31 and 12. person will probably opt out immediately. In any case, asking firms to enrol people who have already given Steve Webb: This group of amendments contains a notice does not do much for our relations with the CBI. long list of disparate topics. To give the House a feel for Those are examples of where we have given employers a what we are discussing, it includes an attempt to limit comprehensive, rigid legal duty that creates perverse the scope of automatic enrolment, the transfer of small outcomes. Clause 34 therefore allows employers to exempt pension pots, short service refunds, the vexed issue of certain categories of workers, and I have mentioned the pension scheme charges, issues with governance and sorts of examples it would cover. administration, the decumulation of pension pots, the Amendment 53 says, “That’s all very well, but we specific issue of rail pensions and the pension protection don’t want you using the power to exempt categories of fund compensation cap. I shall do my best to whizz business such as small and medium-sized firms.” Leaving 771 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 772 aside the fact that the amendment does not define an decisions that are right for them and should lead to SME and it is not clear who would be covered, and that greater income in retirement. That is a welcome level of any amendment with “such as” suggests it is a bit vague support for the proposition. to begin with, in responding to the spirit of the amendment The Opposition amendments suggest a different route I assure the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and would mean that when someone changes job, the and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) and the dormant pension pot is automatically transferred to a House that the Government have no intention of using third-party pension scheme called an aggregator. As I the power to exclude small and medium-sixed firms. understand it, there would not be just one aggregator That is not what this is about. but multiple aggregators, and I have multiple concerns Amendment 53 is otiose, because if we were the evil about that. First, such a policy would clearly lead to Government that the hon. Gentleman thinks we are greater fragmentation of pension saving—it must do. and wanted to exclude small and medium-sized firms, Let us imagine the simplest example in which someone we could do that anyway. The staging schedule is set in moves from firm A to firm B, and works only for two statutory instrument, subject to negative procedure. firms in their working life. In our model, the small Therefore, if we wanted to exclude Britain’s small firms, dormant pension pot follows them from firm A to firm we would have only to produce a statutory instrument B—or scheme A to scheme B—and they end up with a that would say that small firms will be required to stage single pension pot. In the model suggested by the hon. in 2099. That would not even be subject to a vote in the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch House. If the amendment seeks to stop the Government East, the dormant pension pot gets shunted off to some doing something that, in any case, we do not want to third-party provider with whom the employee has never do, it would not work; we could still do it even if the engaged. They therefore have a pot with the current amendment were successful. I hope I have reassured the employer and with the third-party provider. House that amendment 53 is unnecessary, because we We are trying not just to hoover up small pension do not plan to do such a thing. Secondly, the amendment pots but to get people engaged in pension saving. The is not well drafted because it is not clear who it means. problem with someone shunting their money off to a Thirdly, even if passed, it would not achieve the desired third-party provider, perhaps one they did not choose— objective. An unnecessary, poorly drafted amendment there is not much detail in the hon. Gentleman’s model, that does not work should probably not be approved by but I do not think it involves a person choosing a the House. third-party provider, although perhaps it does—is that Amendments 38 to 52 concern what happens to small they get a letter from a pension company they have pension pots—an issue that was not addressed when the never heard of saying, “Guess what, we’ve got your original legislation for automatic enrolment was drawn dormant pension pot.” It is not exactly a ransom note, up. People change jobs perhaps 10 or 11 times in their but it might be the first that someone knows about it, working life, and they leave behind small pension pots. and that will not lead them to become engaged. From the Australian experience, we know that can Under our model, someone’s pension savings are mean lots of people losing track of their pension pots with their current employer. That is what they are and not engaging with pension saving because they have interested in and where workplace pension engagement large numbers of small, silly pension pots all over the takes place. We therefore believe that our model provides place. better consolidation of pension saving and better Australia is often mentioned as having one of the engagement. Our model also saves on the cost of running world’s best pension systems, and the Australians say pension schemes, compared with the model set out in that the one thing they wish they had addressed at the the amendments. With a pot size limit of £10,000— start was small dormant pension pots. The Australian obviously our published research relates to the £2,000 Government have been going at this for longer than we pot size limit on the aggregator model—which is the have, and they estimate that they have 5 million lost same across the two systems, we still estimate that the pension accounts containing 20 billion Australian dollars. aggregate approach will achieve only half the cumulative It is a serious issue. Clause 29 in schedule 16 sets out the administrative savings by 2050 of our pot follows member Government’s response to the issue, which is what we system. While aggregators are worth a look—we considered call pot follows member. When someone moves from an that option—it is clear that pot follows member is the auto-enrolment defined contribution pot to another best solution. one, their pot—as long as it is below a £10,000 threshold— There is an issue of what happens if money is automatically follows them unless they opt for that not automatically transferred from a “good” scheme to a to be the case. “bad” scheme, and I accept that point. That is why we Interestingly, Nick Sherry, former Australian are regulating for scheme quality. It should not just be a superannuation Minister and highly regarded in the worry that someone’s small pension pot gets auto- field said of pot follows member: transferred to a bad scheme; it should be a worry that “It’s the only practical way. It’s better off”— an entire work force have been auto-enrolled into a because the money is in the worker’s last account— bad scheme. We should not have bad schemes and must deal with that. That is why we are tackling pension “which is why I think it’s the only practical solution”. scheme quality, which includes a range of issues such as We are delighted to have Nick Sherry’s support for our governance, investment, costs and charges. In a few approach, as well as that of the Association of British moments I will have news for my hon. Friends and Insurers. In the briefing sent to hon. Members the ABI the House about what action we are taking on welcomes the fact that the Bill includes provisions for charges. For those reasons, we are not convinced by the the automatic transfer of small pension pots, which will multiple aggregator model, as it is catchily known. We lead to greater engagement and help people make savings believe that the someone changing job and their money 773 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 774

[Steve Webb] it accumulates to more than £160,000—the difference between no charges and a 1% charge on savings of following them is a simple, attractive notion that I £100 a month is £160,000, which comes out of the commend to the House. I therefore ask the House to pension pot. That is why I regard the charge caps that reject amendments 38 to 52. the previous Government sought to apply to stakeholder Amendments 5 to 10 are largely technical and deal pensions—they applied no charge cap whatever for with short service refunds. There is a category of money automatic enrolment—as alarmingly high and alarmingly purchase pension schemes through which someone who gentle on the pensions industry. has worked for a firm for under two years can have their I believe this Government can do better than that. I money back when they leave. That is not in the spirit of am therefore pleased to say that tomorrow we will what we are trying to achieve through our pension publish a consultation document on charges in automatic reforms. We want people, even those who put in relatively enrolment pension schemes. We have waited to do that small amounts of pension savings, to accumulate that, because we wanted to see the Office of Fair Trading build up what I call a big fat pot, and have a decent report, which was published in September. It looked at retirement. Short service refunds fly in the face of the the market and found that the demand side of the view that even modest pension savings are worth having, workplace pensions market was one of the worst it had and we therefore propose to eliminate them. The danger ever encountered—that is almost verbatim what it said. with the current legislation is that although someone We do not regulate the price of baked beans because joined to a pension scheme through a contract has the market works. People shop around and buy a product 30 days to opt out, under the Bill they would be in the they want, and they can choose a different one if they scheme on day one, and a day’s or month’s worth of do not like it. The market for workplace pensions is not pension contribution would be lodged. On purely pragmatic like that. The demand side of the model is very weak, grounds we took that view that we ought to apply the because the people who pay the charges, the scheme same 30-day rule to short service refunds. Clause 32 members, are not the same as the people who choose abolishes short service refunds, and technical amendments the pension—the employer chooses the pension, but the 5 to 10 deliver a 30-day breathing space so that someone member pays the charges. Even though the employee who is a member of a scheme for fewer than 30 days can has an incentive to want a low-charge pension scheme, receive a refund of what are essentially nominal they are not the consumer. The employer is the consumer. contributions. I hope that amendments 5 to 10 will be Employers might be oblivious to charges, they might welcomed across the House. not care, or they might want to get rid of the hassle of 1pm choosing a pension scheme and therefore choose what they are offered. In that situation, the employee has a One central issue in the debate on this group of binary choice: stay in or get out. They cannot shop amendments is pension scheme charges. The charge around or negotiate the charges down. It is a take-it-or- quoted on a pension scheme might be 1%, which sounds leave-it situation. pretty innocent, because if 99p in the pound of a person’s money goes into their pension, the chances are It is worse. Not only are employees automatically that they will believe they are getting a good deal. enrolled, and therefore in by default, but their money is However, pension scheme charges are compounded, so invested by default into a default fund. Overwhelmingly, 1% of the fund is taken out in the first year, 1% of what the money of the people I am talking about ends up in is there is taken out in the second year, and so on. The default funds. They are double-defaulted—they are Government estimate that the cumulative impact of defaulted into pension saving and the money is defaulted charges can be very substantial, despite apparently into default investment funds. We absolutely must protect innocuous, low-sounding charges. the consumer interests of those individuals. Therefore, the consultation that opens tomorrow will consider how Some attempts have been made to tackle charges. The far we can get with disclosure. previous Government set a charge cap on stakeholder pensions at what now looks like an astonishingly high Some of the amendments tabled by the hon. Member level. To remind the House, someone who takes out a for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East suggest stakeholder pension can be within the previous that we need tens of thousands of pension funds telling Government’s caps if they pay a charge of 1.5% for the pension regulator what their charges are. That would 10 years followed by 1% thereafter. That is acceptable not be great. If I am a scheme member who has just and regarded as qualifying for the stakeholder stamp. been auto-enrolled or who has fairly passively remained The then Government said, “That’s great. As long as in my scheme, I will be passively put into a default your pension scheme is charging you less than 1.5% for pension fund, but somebody somewhere—Brighton, for the first 10 years and 1% thereafter, the box is ticked example—has a website with a charge figure on it. That and it is a good pension scheme.” I do not regard is not great and does not really help. We need something charges of 1.5% for 10 years and 1% for the rest as good better and tougher than that. value for money. This Government can and will do We are therefore proposing a range of options on better. how far we can get with better disclosure and transparency, Why is 1% significant? Suppose you save, through and on an absolute charge cap. I can tell the House that your working life, £100 a month into a pension—I am we will include in our consultation the option of a not posing this question to you directly, Mr Speaker, 0.75% charge cap on workplace pension schemes. That but rhetorically—how much of your pension pot will is a tougher charge cap than the Opposition have called have gone compared with the situation for a pension for—they chose 1%. Their suggestion of a 1% cap was that has no charges? If the charge is 1% of £100 a either based on an exhaustive investigation of the evidence month, the total charge for a year will be £12 or and the data, or chosen because it was a nice round something, which does not sound like very much. However, number. It was one or the other. The Government 775 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 776 believe we should consider going further. We know that On governance and administration—in the context not enough people are saving for their retirement, and of new clauses 9, 10, 11 and 12, and amendments 54 therefore that every penny they get into their pension and 55—quality in pension saving is not only about has to turn into as much pension as possible. That is charges. How well schemes are governed and administered why we will consult on tough action on charges. is important. Interesting issues are raised by the Opposition’s proposals—obviously, they are flawed, but I acknowledge David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I thank the that they raise important issues. New clause 9 would Minister very much for the announcement that he will impose a trust-based structure for all pension schemes, consider a 0.75% cap in the consultation. Will he ensure with independent trustees across the board. But interestingly, that, in the consultation, there is clarity about what the the Office of Fair Trading’s project leader on the workplace 0.75% includes? As he is aware, there are an awful lot of pensions report that has just been published was recently different interpretations of costs by different people. quoted as saying that although trusts feel like an intuitively That is part of the problem. better way of looking after people’s pensions, that “is largely dependent on the quality of the trustees.” Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is right. The consultation Given the many pension schemes we have at the moment, document discusses what should be included in the including many defined-benefit schemes, a requirement charge cap. My instinct is to prefer a comprehensive for every scheme to have a particular sort of trustee definition of charges. Clearly, we do not want to cap could be a real challenge, especially for smaller DB annual management charges and find out that the industry schemes. has cunningly managed to get its money back by some Some of the Opposition’s suggestions may not be in other route or a disguised charge. We therefore discuss the interests of members of schemes. I think the hon. what should be included. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch My instinct is to go for a broad measure. There is an East was at the recent conference of the National issue with transaction costs—we clearly want to know Association of Pension Funds, where he would have about them. Including transaction costs in the cap heard Fiona Reynolds, the chief of the Australian could lead to a slightly odd situation. Towards the end Institute of Superannuation Trustees—our friends the of the financial year, the fund and the trustees might Australians again—commenting on his suggestion. She believe that conducting a transaction is the right thing said: to do for the benefit of the pension fund. However, they “Looking at the Australian system, we conducted a lot of might be unable to do that because the transaction costs research into whether there should be more independent trustees would take them over the annual limit. We would be but in actual fact we found there was a greater alignment of grateful for feedback on that and need to address those interest within trust based schemes, and these schemes outperformed issues. One reason why we are having a consultation other schemes where independent directors were present.” rather than laying down a definite answer is that we In other words, these are interesting ideas, but they have want insight on the fine detail, as my hon. Friend says. been tried elsewhere and they are not a panacea or The basic principle is that we are looking at ensuring golden bullet. that 99p-plus of every £1 put into a pension goes into a pension. I am grateful for his comments. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and I should add that there has been a suite of activity on Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): If that is the case for Australia— charges. To remind the House, we announced a ban on and I looked very closely at Ms Reynolds’ comments—why consultancy charges earlier in the year. Government are the Australian Government giving the regulator and new schedule 1 and Government new clause 1 give us trustees a duty to consider how to improve the Australian the power to put a set of powers to cap and regulate pension system in the future? charges and quality all in one place. That includes automatic enrolment schemes, qualifying schemes and Steve Webb: I do not see any incompatibility. The closed schemes. Lots of people have lots of money tied specific finding in Australia that independent trustees up in closed schemes. Without those measures, we would are not a magic bullet is not inconsistent with requiring not necessarily have the powers we need to regulate the schemes to ensure they are doing a good job. We will charges they pay. In some ways, the charges that people require schemes to meet quality standards that we will in closed schemes are paying—they are often old, high- set out shortly. charge schemes—are worrying, because people are often Our call for evidence earlier this year sought views on not engaged with their pension saving in a closed pension provider-level governance structures, and the OFT has scheme. announced that the Association of British Insurers will Prompted by the OFT and working with the ABI, we work on independent governance committees for the are looking at legacy schemes—schemes introduced big insurance-based schemes. We welcome that development before 2001. The average charges in legacy schemes are and will consider our own proposals in detail in our 26% higher than charges in schemes sold after 2001. response to the call for evidence. This is a full-frontal assault on pension scheme charges. The second set of governance issues relates to fiduciary We have banned consultancy charges; we are taking duty and sustainability, addressed in new clause 12, powers in the Bill to go further for auto-enrolment tabled by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline schemes; and we are looking at legacy schemes, charges Lucas) and amendments 54 and 55. By happy coincidence, and charge caps. We are taking effective action on issues I took part in a conference this morning organised by that previous Governments have only dabbled with. ShareAction. The hon. Lady was on the attendance That is why I urge my hon. Friends to support our new list—perhaps she was sitting at the back heckling, but I clause and our other proposals. They deliver, whereas did not see her there. The conference was to launch the Opposition’s proposals mess about around the edges. ShareAction’s green light project, which aims to get 777 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 778

[Steve Webb] only in pensions but beyond. I am sympathetic to what she is trying to achieve, but we want to do it in a pension funds to take sustainability and climate change systematic, cross-Government way rather than dealing seriously. I was delighted to take part in that conference with just a bit of the issue. I look forward to hearing and I am very supportive of that agenda. what she has to say, but I hope that she will withdraw Clearly, the duty of trustees to their members is a new clause 12. cornerstone of trust-based governance, but we are looking Scale is important. I do not think anyone doubts at whether we have got the definition of fiduciary duty that, on average, bigger schemes produce better outcomes right. I welcome the fact that the Law Commission has than smaller schemes, in the sense that, typically, bigger consulted on this. Its interim conclusion is that fiduciaries schemes have lower costs; they have the potential to should look at longer-term issues, and it is legitimate for diversify and pool risk; they have access to investment them to look at environmental, social and governance— vehicles that smaller schemes perhaps do not; they have ESG—issues. The Government are therefore considering access to better quality investment advice; and they what the fiduciary duty on trustees means and how far have more experienced trustees. We can see why, on we can deal with it through a better understanding of average, a big scheme will probably do better than a that work. small scheme. Just as the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, One of the issues that came out of the conference this Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East is searching for golden morning—I shall try not to deviate too much from the bullets on independent trustees— new clauses, Mr Speaker—was that the trustee toolkit that the Pensions Regulator provides could be amended Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East to take account of some of these concerns. One of the Cleveland) (Lab): Silver bullets. challenges is to try to ensure that the trustees do their Steve Webb: Apparently he is searching for silver job properly and have a broad understanding of what it bullets. In any case, we are already seeing consolidation. entails. As I say, the Law Commission’s interim conclusion To give the House a sense of scale, let us consider small was that trustees should—note “should”, not just “may”— and medium occupational defined-contribution schemes consider for between 12 and 1,000 members. The number of such “in general terms, whether their policy will be to take account of schemes fell by more than a third in three years—a ESG factors in their decision-making”. dramatic fall—from 3,300 to 2,110. The number of micro-schemes, with between two and 11 members, fell 1.15 pm by a fifth over the same period, from some 45,000 to I do not have any problem with the spirit of the new 36,000. In a sense, the Opposition amendments seek to clause and amendments, but we are trying to consider force the pace on scale, but it is already happening quite this issue across Government. One of the funny things quickly. That is a welcome development, and once we about being the pensions Minister is that if I go to a implement our measures on scheme quality—which, conference on pension funds and climate change, I have subject to consultation, may include tough action on to get briefed by the Department for Business, Innovation charges—there will be a seismic effect on the pensions and Skills because it does fiduciary stuff, and by the industry. Department of Energy and Climate Change because it If a scheme cannot be used for auto-enrolment unless does climate change. Rather than amend pension legislation it delivers seriously low charges, many small, sub-scale to deal with this little bit of the picture, we are trying to schemes will fall by the wayside. The trends are already take an holistic view. As the hon. Member for Brighton, in that direction, and the measures we shall implement Pavilion knows, we have had the Kay review of fiduciary will substantively accelerate that. Rather than presume duty and long-termism, and we have the Law Commission that scale is the right answer, we have to regulate the review. We are trying to be as careful and as cross- quality. If a small scheme can demonstrate that it is, for departmental as we can, so we want to look at the whole example, tailored to the characteristics of its membership investment chain and at how corporate governance, the and is delivering for them, great. law of the land and pensions will be affected, to make change in an integrated and connected way. We do not want to kill good-quality small pension schemes, which is what the Opposition’s slightly bureaucratic Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I am amendment could do. Instead, we will say, “This is what grateful to the Minister for his positive comments. I we think good looks like. If you, as a big or small take the point that the pension aspect is not the full scheme, can deliver that, we will not tell you what to do. picture, but it is a big part of it. If we want to make We will set parameters for what good looks like and you quicker progress on this issue, can he advise where we have to deliver.” Consolidation is already happening, should best table our next amendments? and the quality requirements we are putting in place will deliver the outcomes that the hon. Member for Steve Webb: In someone else’s legislation—[Laughter.] Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East wants. Just between ourselves, I encourage the hon. Lady to Moving on—I apologise for the jargon—to keep up the pressure across Government, including at decumulation, or “turning pension pots into retirement Business, Innovation and Skills questions, Energy and income,” as I think I am required to call it, new clause Climate Change questions and Work and Pensions 11 suggests that it should be a requirement on schemes questions. To be frank, this issue is not always at the top to feed in an annuity broker at the end. The hon. of the pension agenda, so I welcome the amendments Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch for that reason. I am reluctant, however, to amend the East touches on an important issue, albeit again in an Bill in a piecemeal fashion, when I hope that we can overly rigid way. Getting pension pots into a good have a more overarching framework affecting company profile of retirement income is crucial, which is why we law, business regulation and the duties of trustees not at the Department for Work and Pensions are working 779 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 780 with our colleagues at the Treasury on annuities and would not suffer any detriment as a result of privatisation? decumulation. Decumulation is about more than annuities. Our experience is that privatised companies go bust That is not a snappy soundbite, but in other words, more often than others. Surely we are reneging on those turning a pension pot into a retirement income has to promises? be about the whole process of retirement, not just a single event on a single day that fixes one’s retirement Steve Webb: Just to be clear, new clause 7 makes a income for perhaps 30 years. specific suggestion regarding a private sector employer The danger with the rigidity of new clause 11 is that it going to the wall. The promise was never, “You’ll get presumes a backward-looking annuity model. Annuities absolutely everything, even if your firm goes bankrupt;” in their current form were designed for a world where it was that the terms of the pension would be as good as people lived for 10 years with pensions and then died. in the public sector. Clearly, in this case people are We now have a world where people might annuitise in working for a private sector firm and could, if they their early 60s, or want to stop contributing to their wish, transfer their pension rights to somewhere else. pension pot in their early 60s, and live into their 90s. They chose to keep them with the sponsoring employer. There are serious questions about the suitability of Bear in mind that the money to pay for any shortfall annuities for everybody. For example, people with big in those pensions will come from the general taxpayer. pension pots might want to look at a mixture of draw-down. Somebody is paying for that shortfall and many general They might want to look at alternatives, deferral or a taxpayers have no pension provision at all. If a private range of options. It would be a backward step to company knows that the pension fund is completely hardwire into primary legislation that the only good insured by the Government, that may influence its thing that can be done with a pension is to annuitise behaviour in a way we would not want. If feels unfair to through this particular model. We should give people say, “If your private employer used to be nationalised new options at decumulation, not hardwire them into not only do you still have access to a very good pension the annuity model. Of course, even an annuity broker scheme, but it is absolutely protected, whereas if you may not necessarily guarantee that someone will get, for worked for any other private firm you are not protected.” example, an impaired life annuity or enhanced annuity I can understand why the hon. Member for Hayes and for disability or low life expectancy. Harlington, given his trade union links, supports the There is a lot that needs looking at in this section of railway workers—that is fair enough—but it seems like the market. The initiatives that the industry has already special pleading for that industry and I think there are taken—for example, the ABI code that came into practice many others who might make the same argument. earlier this year—are welcome, but we need to go further. David Mowat: I am sorry to take my hon. Friend We need a creative approach to turning pension pots back to annuities, but I have been reflecting on his into pension income, not a single product hardwired remarks. I agree with the need for us to be more creative into a primary legislation model. I understand where in that interface as annuities are taken out, and he is the hon. Gentleman is coming from and I believe that right to say that the annuity broker is overly prescriptive. the annuity market is in need of further reform, but However, it is also true, as I think he said, that there are hardwiring into primary legislation does not seem to us market abuses in the annuity system. Is there any more to be the way to go. we can do with the consultation to look at the transition The House will be pleased to know that there are two from pension fund to annuity and ensure that, for final sections left, both of which are brief. The hon. example, the Association of British Insurers code of Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), conduct is more rigorously applied than it has been? It who does not appear to be in his place, tabled new has not been very successful up till now. clause 7, on rail pensions. The new clause relates to whether the Government should underwrite the shortfalls Steve Webb: Although the ABI code, for example, no in the pension funds of employees who worked for the longer requires the providers to send the application nationalised rail industry, which was then privatised, form with the wake-up letter, I gather the early evidence and where some companies, such as Jarvis Facilities, is that it has not substantially changed the proportion Relayfast and Fastline, went to the wall. We sympathise of people who shop around and then move to a new with any worker whose firm goes to the wall, but I say provider. I agree with my hon. Friend that there is a big to the hon. Gentleman in absentia that the notion of agenda on decumulation—I apologise again for the protected persons in this case was simply that the terms word. It is not just about annuities. The new clause is of the pension scheme of the private employer would be too narrow and too prescriptive, but I assure my hon. as good as in the public sector. It was never a guarantee Friend that we do not regard decumulation as a job against the insolvency of the sponsoring employer. All done—on the contrary. private sector employees are covered by the Pension Protection Fund, provided that their firm pays the PPF Katy Clark: I have been contacted by a number of levy. That is how these workers will get all or most, constituents who are in difficulties because of the current depending on their circumstances, of the pensions they regime. The Minister clearly accepts that there is a need were expecting. It would be wrong to give special treatment for change. When will he come forward with proposals? to that group when many other people work for firms He has been in post for a number of years and is clearly that went to the wall and will not get that treatment. on top of his brief. We need the Government to act. When will they do so? Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that to enable privatisations Steve Webb: My particular responsibility is automatic to go ahead—we are not just talking about the railways; enrolment. We are about to put 10 million people into the electricity sector and the miners were affected in mainly defined-contribution pensions, the vast majority similar ways—promises were made that people’s pensions of whom, all things being equal, will then buy an 781 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 782

[Steve Webb] pension charges, but from the detail—or lack of detail—in his announcements, it seems we are still a long way from annuity at the end. For understandable reasons, our getting answers. focus in the past few years has been to get the infrastructure On other matters first, however, the Minister says in place to get those 10 million people into pension that auto-enrolment is going “exceptionally well”. I saving and building up pension pots. Then, when they think that that is accurate, but I am sure he would agree have a pension pot, we will ensure that they receive that we have to be cautious, given that it is very large good value at the other end. There will be a set of employers that have enrolled and that the percentage of people who will be auto-enrolled today and will retire savers’ income going into the new pension schemes is tomorrow, but they are a minority. We need to get to very small—in many cases, it is hard to notice. We grips with this issue. Annuity policy is led by our welcome the developments, however, and pay tribute to colleagues in the Treasury, which is why we are working him for taking forward the previous Labour Government’s closely with them. We hope to make further announcements auto-enrolment scheme; there is consensus, I think, on soon. both sides of the House that auto-enrolment has to Government amendment 31 relates to the Pension work effectively. It is crucial that every single one of the Protection Fund compensation cap. In Committee, we 10 million people being auto-enrolled between 2012 and amended the Bill so that workers entering the PPF 2017 can be sure of getting value for money from that would have a more generous cap if they had been pension scheme. The necessity of value for money for long-serving employees. The amendment applies the all auto-enrolment schemes is what drives my amendments. same provisions to people who are already in the PPF. I wish to say a little about why that matters so much We will not go back years and increase pensions and how the Minister’s wind-up of the state pension retrospectively, but once the Bill and secondary legislation interacts crucially with auto-enrolment. Essentially, he is passed we will increase their pensions going forward has gone for a hard and fast wind-up of the second state in line with the provisions we have already made for new pension. No doubt, he will justify that move, and there employees going into the PPF. are reasons to think it is sensible, but if we are to have a quick wind-up of the second state pension and a fast Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Will the move to a flat-rate state pension, the biggest losers from Minister explain what the position will be with regard that switch—this might be defensible, because there are to the cap for those who are in the financial assistance always winners and losers—are likely to be lower-paid scheme and are not yet in the PPF? workers in the private sector who did well out of the redistribution accrual mechanism in the second state Steve Webb: I am grateful to the Chair of the Select pension. If someone was low paid in the private sector, Committee. As she knows, the PPF scheme is funded by they accrued in a way that brought them closer to those the PPF levy, and the financial assistance scheme is on higher incomes. In many cases, therefore, the same funded directly by the taxpayer. I think the FAS will be people now being auto-enrolled will be the same people moving next year to the Department’s annually managed losing out from the hard and fast wind-up of the second expenditure budget, so we will then have to find taxpayers’ state pension, or losing out in the longer term. That money to make a parallel change to the FAS. We are makes getting auto-enrolment right all the more important. continuing to reflect on whether we should do so. No The first thing he should have done when he took final decision has been made, but I understand the case office—I know he will have an enormous in-tray—was for some matching change. work out how to ensure that every one of the 10 million people enrolled got value for money. That is the context To conclude, the change to the compensation cap will of this debate. mean that relatively small numbers of people—who, having worked for their firm all their life, should have The Minister says that the Bill will further improve got a good pension, but on whom the cap was biting the situation, so let me pursue some of his comments particularly harshly—will now get a fairer pension, and then turn to Labour’s vision for private pensions. which has been widely welcomed by those affected. Amendments 5 to 10 to clause 32, on short service refunds, are more or less uncontroversial. On clause 34 In summary, this section of the Bill deals with making and exemptions from auto-enrolment, he referred to automatic enrolment and private pensions work. Automatic our amendment 53 and said that I saw this as an “evil enrolment has been a great success so far, but there have Government”. always been a lot more aspects to sort out, small pension pots being one in particular, scheme quality another. I Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): Hear, hear! am delighted to say, therefore, that this is the week we finally tackle the scourge of excessive pension charges, Gregg McClymont: That is a lesson in not posing a and I commend the Government amendments to the rhetorical question. Whatever my hon. Friend believes, House. I do not see this as an evil Government—in particular, no one doubts the Minister’s good intentions—but our amendment must be understood in the context of the 1.30 pm Beecroft report. Gregg McClymont: I have listened closely to the As you will remember, Mr Speaker, Adrian Beecroft Minister. When one listens to him, particularly on is a Tory donor who has produced a report in the last pension charges, one has to listen very closely, because—how 18 months arguing that red tape and bureaucracy on shall I put this politely?—there is a gap between the small businesses are far too heavy and that micro-employers rhetoric and the reality. I will analyse the extent to should be removed from auto-enrolment. I know the which there remains a gap. In one sense, he has caught Minister does not support that and said the Government up with the questions that need to be asked about had no intention of doing it—no one is suggesting he 783 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 784 would do such an awful thing—but he will not be there Committee. In arguing a point with me, he pointed to for eternity. Given his recent comments about God DWP evidence. It turned out that the way in which he being a liberal, perhaps he does intend to be around for quoted that evidence was not appropriate, but my point eternity, but for those of us of a more sceptical temper, I is not to criticise him for making a mistake, which does think we can say he will not be around for ever, so it happen; it is much broader. The DWP is forced to take would be sensible to constrain a future Government, or surveys of employers to try to find out what pension even this Government—anything could happen—who providers are charging them. The Minister talks about might be under pressure from the Beecrofts of this evidence. Would not a much more effective way to world, in a way that is consonant with the best objectives approach things be to have the costs and charges laid of public policy. out for everyone to see in the first place? Why has he not The Minister said that amendment 53 did not even got on with ensuring that costs and charges are disclosed? define a small and medium-sized enterprise, but he will Instead, the DWP has to take surveys of employers know that the Companies Act 2006 clearly defines an who, in many cases—as his own survey evidenced—are SME as an enterprise with 50 or fewer employees. That not aware of what they are buying in terms of a pension is a common definition of an SME. The broader point, scheme. however, is exactly the one I have already expressed: we That brings us to the broader issue of who buys pensions. are trying to do him a favour by protecting him from The Minister wants to move to pot follows member and those within the coalition Government who take a less says that there will be quality criteria; these will be enlightened view of the benefits of auto-enrolment. We minimum quality criteria. But, as things stand, he could tabled the amendment in that spirit. not explain to the House all the costs and charges that On clause 29 and the debate around schedule 16, the exist in a pension scheme. Neither the Government nor Minister raised the Australian example. I was at the the regulator gathers that evidence. That is a fundamental National Association of Pension Funds last week, and I point about the pensions market today. have even watched him in the video—I was hoping he would entertain us with the song from “Les Misérables”, Similarities are often drawn between energy and pensions. but I will come to that when I deal with costs and One way in which they are similar is that the vertical charges. He said that Australia is doing pot follows integration of pension providers—the same as with energy member—the inference is that I often point to the companies—means that it is very hard to crack where benefits of the Australian system—but that is not surprising, the costs and charges lie. I put that point on the table. because Australia has several hundred schemes, whereas The Minister wants to move to pot follows member but we have 200,000, and that is not including personal has not set out in detail the mechanism and the IT by private pensions. To compare a system so scaled with which he would do this. More widely, he is not able to our system is to let one’s a priori views of the world get say at this stage what the costs and charges are in in advance of the evidence, or to put it more simply: he pension schemes. So how can he be sure that no one will is comparing apples and pears. Australia has several move from a superior to an inferior scheme? He will say, hundred pension schemes; we have 200,000, and that is and has said, that he will ensure that this happens. a fundamental problem with comparing our system. Again, I do not doubt his good intentions, but he has Australia is in a much better place in terms of scale. not so far delivered on costs and charges. More widely, The Minister says that pot follows member will be if he does deliver—as I am sure he has every intention simple and effective and that we will regulate for quality, of doing—the amount of regulation that it will take to by which he means there will be minimum standards—or make a pot follows member pension automatic transfer at least he tells us there will be minimum standards, but, system work is enormous. That is why so many stakeholders guess what, that is also currently part of a consultation. in pensions do not think it is a feasible way to proceed. There is a broader theme to which I shall return; when The Minister said that the Association of British Insurers the Minister feels under pressure from the Labour agenda supports it. That is hardly surprising, because this is a on private pensions, he calls for consultation. He says system that will have the least detriment to the ABI’s that this and that will happen but when we study the members. detail, we see that what he has called for is a consultation. 1.45pm That is not the same as decisive action. On pot follows member, the problem is that the UK The Minister feels that he is now catching up with the has a fragmented pensions system; we have 200,000 pension charges debate; that is evident from his language pension schemes. We have—to put it in a simple fashion— and from the extent to which he talks about the Labour great variations in quality. The Minister is being asked agenda, which is quite striking for the Report stage of a repeatedly by the pensions world how pot follows member Bill. But he is still caught in the mindset of “If only I will work in those circumstances. It is again worth can get the industry round the table, it will deliver.” listening closely to what he says, because he has not yet There is no evidence of delivery so far and no evidence explained how it will work. He has set out his plan and therefore that that will happen. The reason that there is objective to get to pot follows member but not how the no evidence relates to a point made by my right hon. mechanism will work. One of the reasons for that is that Friend the Leader of the Opposition in his powerful it is very difficult to do. To go back to the Australian 2013 conference speech, which still reverberates around point, pot follows member would be a sensible approach British politics. He asked, rightly, why would one expect if we started from a very different place, but we do not. an industry to take the decisions necessary to reform a We start from a very fragmented private pensions system market when it is not in its interests to do so. Why, with a massive variation in quality. indeed? I say to the Minister that, on pot follows On costs and charges, the Minister does not actually member, he has to look beyond the ABI’s interests and know what is going on in the pensions world. We had a look to the interests of the wider pensions community very interesting conversation, or debate on this in and of the most important people, savers. 785 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 786

[Gregg McClymont] The Minister has been slow to understand the depth of the problems in the pensions market, and the House The Minister mentioned the National Association of does not have to take my word for that. Earlier this Pension Funds conference, where he mentioned pot week, I wrote to the Conservative MPs in the 40 most follows member. I am sure that he got a very warm marginal Conservative seats, who have recently published reception, because the national association is very clear a manifesto-cum-policy document. The language therein not only that pot follows member is not the best way to is—how shall I put this?—tougher on the private pensions proceed, but that there is a serious possibility of significant market even than mine. The document, “40 Policy Ideas consumer detriment, which, in everyday language, means from the 40”, describes it as a failed market. It also rip-offs. The national association, which the Minister so states: eloquently addressed the other week, is very clear on “Pension providers still refuse to clearly identify hidden charges that. Not only is the association clear that we should such as churn and related fees…91% of retirees buy their pension have no truck with pot follows member, but it supports—the annuity from their fund manager without checking other market House will be surprised to learn—aggregators. options…the problem is that the private pensions market in the UK is a failed industry with higher charges than in any other The Minister sets out my approach to aggregators as country.” being, “Labour wants several aggregators, but how would they work?”He said that aggregators stop individuals That was not written by the Labour party. It was engaging with their pension, or make that engagement written by the Conservative MPs in the 40 most marginal impossible. He knows very well that the whole logic of constituencies. It seems a bit odd that they should take auto-enrolment, which Labour began and which he has a tougher line on the pensions market than the Liberal followed through, is that we have to use the power of Democrat Pensions Minister. inertia in pensions, because all the evidence is that many The way to explain that conundrum—I will not call it people will find it difficult to engage with pensions a paradox—is to say that anyone who believes in markets whatever the circumstances, given their complexity. Also, and thinks that they should work properly will support as he must be all too aware, auto-enrolment involves Labour’s proposals on reforming the private pensions employers buying pensions, not the saver. industry. We want to reform it to ensure that the 10 million A criticism that I would make more widely of the new savers going into automatically enrolled pensions Minister is that he approaches the pensions market as if get a fair deal. This pertains in particular to clause 29 it were a functioning market; functioning in the sense and schedule 16, and the amendments thereto. It comes that we can and do have a consumer who is engaged, down to whether we believe that the pensions market is informed and sovereign, and a seller. The Minister ready and able to proceed with pot follows member, knows that that is not the basis on which auto-enrolment given its fragmentation. The evidence shows that it proceeds because it is the employer who buys the pension. clearly is not. Again, Members need not take my word In other spheres, he has shown that he is fully aware that for that. The National Association of Pension Funds there is a big problem in the pensions market, which has made it clear that we need to move to an aggregator develops from the fact that the saver in many cases system. cannot be the sovereign—the person who makes the Given that the Minister was kind enough to spend a decisions—first, because the employer buys the pension considerable period of time talking about the Labour and, secondly, because the pensions are so complex and amendments, I will do the same. I want to say a little their annual statements so opaque. about why aggregators are important. When the Minister In those circumstances and with the Minister being addressed the NAPF,he gave a lucid, walk-around-the-stage aware of that, to claim that the aggregators should be performance that I enjoyed very much. He referred to excluded and rejected on the basis that they do not two songs from “Les Misérables”. It would be unfair of allow consumer engagement is a bit of a straw man. Let me to sing either of those songs to him now. I have to me say a little about why I think aggregators are so confess that I am not a musicals man, although I important. This relates to my other new clauses and I suspect that the Minister might be a man for musicals— should iterate at this stage that these new clauses must, if we are to develop a serious policy to improve auto- Steve Webb indicated assent. enrolment outcomes, go together. For example, the Gregg McClymont: It seems that he is, and that is fair Minister talked about trustees and said that the OFT enough. I myself am not. Musicals are not my thing. He says that the key is the quality of the trustees. He is of quoted from the innkeeper’s song, which I am certainly course right. My view, and that of the Labour party, is not going to sing. For one thing, I do not know the that trustees, in scaling up the pensions system, and words. He used the song as a basis to talk about aggregators go together to try to make a significant 2% here, 3% there and charges everywhere, and presented difference to the 10 million people being automatically that as the problem in the UK pensions market. That is enrolled in pensions. very different from what he was saying not long ago. It Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) is just over a year since he accused Labour of (Lab): My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I scaremongering about pension charges, but he has moved recognise that the Minister is sincere in his intention to a long way since then—rhetorically, if not perhaps improve pensions but, in relation to costs and charges, substantially. He talked about that ditty and made it does my hon. Friend think that the inertia might be a clear that there was a problem, but he still does not result of the Government not wanting to challenge the grasp the fact that pot follows member is impossible vested interests of the big pension providers in order to because of the fragmentation in the pensions market. stand up for ordinary, hard-working people? Labour’s new clauses would enable the restructuring Gregg McClymont: I thank my hon. Friend for her of the UK pensions market so that savers’ interests shrewd intervention. would be appropriately represented. The Minister referred 787 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 788 to our new clause 9, which deals with trustees, and he to think about how all that relates to restructuring the quoted the OFT’s view that the trustees would have to private pensions system so that it takes cognisance of be good ones. He also quoted someone from Australia that reality. It is in that area that he is not taking on who is over here at the moment, who had said that in what the Opposition are saying. some cases trustees were not the answer. We are clear that we need to move to an aggregator Our proposals involve having trustees in every scheme, system, because otherwise pot follows member will not the scaling up of the UK pensions industry to reduce work and because if we enable the creation of aggregators, the fragmentation born of 200,000 different schemes—it we have a chance to bring down charges in the auto- is the most fragmented private pension system in the enrolment market. We know that there are millions of world—and the reform of the annuities market. Our stranded pension pots, and the Minister rightly and amendment (a) to new clause 1 proposes that all costs repeatedly talks about them. How do we use the stranded and charges should be disclosed. Those measures need pots issue to generate some change in the interests of to be taken together as a package, as a Labour Government pension savers, particularly the 10 million new savers would do, and they would provide a starting point for automatically being enrolled in pensions for the first tackling the fundamental problem in the UK pensions time? How do we do that? That is what our new clauses industry. wink towards. Our proposals would deal with the first problem, the system’s fragmentation. Secondly, they would deal with the problem that, as history tells us, pension savers are 2pm not the same engaged, informed consumers as those One way of doing that is to use the power of the who buy tins of beans. The Minister seems to have stranded pots as a lure and say to providers, “If you undergone a damascene conversion on the merits and want access to the new market and to the billions of demerits of comparing the pensions market to the tin of pounds locked in stranded pots, you can do so as long beans market, and I will come back to that point. Savers as you meet quality, costs and charges standards as set are not informed and engaged in that way. down by the Government and the regulator.” We could Buying a pension is not like buying a tin of beans. say to pension providers in the AE market, “Yes, you The consumer does not exert the same pressure. Someone can be approved as an automatic transfer scheme aggregator, buying a tin of beans might be given a choice of five but only if you charge 50 basis points, and fully disclose different kinds. With pensions, such a choice would not your transaction costs,” thus meeting the criteria of the be available to the saver anyway, because the employer Labour new clauses dealing with independent trustees buys the product. But let us use the Minister’s metaphor and other requirements. That shows how to use the and compare the pensions market with the tin of beans stranded pots in the interests of the 10 million people market. First, if there were a pensions market in a who are being enrolled into these pensions for the first supermarket, the saver would not choose the pension time. The ABI does not agree with that, and it is faithful themselves; their employer would do so. That would be to its position as an important industry interest, but it an odd arrangement in the tin of beans market. Secondly, represents big pension companies, whereas I think the the buyer of beans can taste the various kinds, from the job of this House is to represent pension savers. That cheaper ones to the more expensive, and come to a sets out the rationale for our amendments and new judgment based on taste relative to cost. It would be clauses. difficult for them to make a similar comparison with pensions; historically, it has never happened. Thirdly, I Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful return to the point that it is the employer who makes the contribution, but what he seems to be saying is that if I purchase of a pension. have a small amount of money, I can have a 50 basis The Minister has done something significant in the points pension fund, but his proposal for the charge cap state pension sphere. He and I have been exchanging for active members is 100 basis points or 1%. If I have a views across the Dispatch Box for almost two years lot of money in pensions, I have to pay 1%, but if I go now, and I say to him gently that he is still approaching off to an aggregator, it is 0.5%. Why is that a good deal? the private pensions market on the basis that it has the ability to function like other markets, including the Gregg McClymont: I thank the Minister for that market for beans, even though, as he looks at it more thoughtful intervention. I am coming on to the issue of closely, he can see that there are big problems. It cannot the charge cap and the rate at which it will be set, so I function like that. If we are to make it work properly, shall take up the point when I discuss our amendment we have to ensure that the people acting in the pension (a) to new clause 1. He refers to small pots, but that saver’s interests are muscled, scaled and resourced. takes us into territory we have previously discussed That is what our new clauses would achieve. They about getting aggregators to take them on. Why does would enable the scaling up of the pensions system, so he believe that only small pots that are stranded that schemes would be able to get an effective deal from should automatically be transferred? My view is that all providers. Let us be clear: the providers in the pensions stranded pots should be liable for automatic transfer. I market have scale. In that sense, it is a bit like the energy am grateful for his intervention, because it reminds me market. They are large-scale, efficient organisations. It of something I intended to say. The Government’s is the people saving into pensions who do not have position on the pot follows member system appears to scale, and that is because there are 200,000 pension be supported only by the Government, the Minister and schemes. They do not have the necessary representation the ABI. First, the only pots liable for automatic transfer because the smaller employers, in particular, who are will be those for less than £10,000, and secondly no pots auto-enrolling their employees are not pension experts. that are stranded before the date on which the legislation I know that the Minister is aware of those facts—we takes effect will count as stranded pots. [Interruption.] have discussed them a number of times—and I urge him The Minister shakes his head. I will give way to him if I 789 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 790

[Gregg McClymont] than being shocked at the fact that the Treasury Parliamentary Private Secretary is going to vote with am wrong on that point. He does not want to intervene, the Government. Believe it or not, that did not come as so I shall continue on the basis that what I am saying is much of a surprise to me. correct. This is an important issue, because I am building a Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I beg case that the Minister does not realise how substantial the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. That was my mistake. the problems in the private pensions market are. He Perhaps the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg continues to think it can be treated like better functioning Mulholland) will speak later. I call Greg McClymont. or well functioning dynamic markets. Actually, the market Gregg McClymont: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. is more like the one in energy. I say that because when, I was not sure whether I had misheard or whether the under the Minister’s leadership, the Department for hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) Work and Pensions looked at how to consolidate pots, was trying to intervene. it gave as a reason against aggregators the fact that they would disrupt the current market structure. I want to pay tribute to the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat), one of the group of 40, as a The Minister talks about new clause 1 and the need doughty campaigner on behalf of those who wish to see to take very strong action. Implicit but also explicit in radical reform of the pensions market. I do not know what he says is that there are really serious problems whether he had left his place when I quoted from the with this market. If that was not explicit in what he said “40 Policy Ideas from the 40” and the description of today, it was certainly explicit in his “Les Miserables” the private pensions market as “failed”. I noted that the ditty at the NAPF. He knows about these problems, and language used by those 40 MPs was stronger than he knows that we need significant change. We are going anything I had used about the private pension market, to be in a position, however, whereby all currently and suggested that it is a little odd that Conservative stranded pots will continue to be stranded. The Minister MPs take a tougher line on the industry than the is shaking his head again. Does he want to tell me that I Liberal Democrat Minister. Perhaps it is not odd, however, am wrong? I am happy to accept it if I am wrong, but because those who believe in free markets will want the on the basis of our Committee debates, I do not think pensions market to work effectively. [Interruption.] I that I am. Am I wrong? The Minister will not stand up did not catch what was said by the hon. Member for to say so, so I shall assume that I am not and that he Gloucester (Richard Graham), but I invite him to intervene wants to keep the currently stranded pots still stranded if he wishes to do so. and will not take action to deal with the problem. He Mr Speaker—[Laughter]—I am sorry, Madam Deputy also sets a £10,000 limit. Why? The answer is that he Speaker. You are not the only one who can make a continues to be unprepared to stand up to the vested verbal slip! interests in the pensions market. The Minister said several times that the ABI is doing I was struck by what the Minister said about this, and the ABI is doing that. That is welcome; we like decumulation. It proved my point about his ability to to see the industry engaged. However, a time must talk but not necessarily to take any action, or enough come—and it is now—when the Government must get action. New clause 11 calls for an independent brokerage on and make the changes necessary to reform the service to guide those who annuitise on retirement pensions system. I put that on the record, and if he through the process. Its aim is to deal with the lack of wishes to correct me, he can. As I say, currently stranded competition which, according to the NAPF and others, pots will not be encompassed by clause 29 and schedule 16, causes people to receive an average of 20% less in their and no pot above £10,000 will be considered to be a pot annuities than they would have received had they shopped eligible for automatic transfer. I think that says something around. That returns me to a point with which I have significant—that he does not understand the necessity been trying to persuade the Minister to engage. Buying for significant change in this market. an annuity involves a huge decision which a person will make only once in a lifetime, and which will affect the It is not just me referring to private pensions as a rest of that person’s life. However, the process is complicated, failed industry. As I said, the group of 40 Tory MPs in and because they find it hard to understand what they the most marginal constituencies have done so too. are being told, most people currently default to the They do so because they understand that if 10 million annuities that they are being offered by their existing people are to be automatically enrolled into the new pension providers. workplace pensions, every scheme must provide value for money. The Minister needs to take the necessary Katy Clark: I am glad that my hon. Friend is speaking action and accept that. up for savers. He is raising issues that have already been raised with me by a number of my constituents. When I David Mowat: I have just come back into the Chamber, told the Minister that we were waiting to hear proposals but since the hon. Gentleman mentions the 40 Tory from the Government, he said that we would hear Members, I want to put on record the fact that as one of something very soon. Has my hon. Friend been given those 40, I was extremely happy to hear what the any indication of when that might happen? Minister said about the consultation, the 0.75% cap and his cognisance of the issues surrounding it. I shall Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Gregg therefore support the Government in any Divisions on McClymont! these new clauses and amendments. [Interruption.] Gregg McClymont: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Gregg McClymont: My letter has not had the desired That was beautifully pronounced, which is what I would effect. I thought that Madam Deputy Speaker called me expect from a Member from Kilmacolm. I look forward “Greg Mulholland” there. I was processing that, rather to your pronunciation of my constituency. 791 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 792

My hon. Friend made a very good point. I think she, but I have nothing to propose myself.” This is, after all, and indeed everyone who listened to the Minister’s the Pensions Bill. If reform is not proposed in the response to new clause 11, will be wondering what he Pensions Bill, where will it be proposed? proposes in lieu of the new clause. “Nothing” is an honest and fair assessment—or, at least, “Nothing concrete Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman’s central thesis or substantive.” Referring to decumulation, the seems to be that he should claim credit for Labour’s Minister said, “An awful lot needs to be looked at. We 2008 auto-enrolment legislation. He likes to say that need to go further, but we need a creative approach auto-enrolment is a Labour thing. However, he has rather than merely focusing on annuities.” I understand spent the last three quarters of an hour telling us how what he meant, because there is an ongoing debate fatally flawed that legislation was. It contains no standards about annuities as a product, but people out there, relating to quality or to annuities. I would have asked including our constituents, are annuitising every day. I myself on day one, “How can we get value for money?” do not think that saying to those people, “We are Why did Labour think that it was good enough to going to think about some creative solutions, we cannot legislate for auto-enrolment without addressing any of tell you what they are, and because we are going to do those issues? something creative, we should not at this stage do something specific and concrete in order to improve Gregg McClymont: The Minister took a similar approach outcomes,” stands the test. How long will it be before when he talked about stakeholders. I shall say more the Minister deals with this problem? about the stakeholder issue later, but let me first make clear to him that I have never claimed that all the credit We know that annuities are a huge issue and that for auto-enrolment should go to Labour; in fact, I have plenty of ideas are flying around, but ours is a said a number of times that the Minister and the concrete, practical proposal to improve annuity outcomes Government deserve credit for taking it on. The Minister as things stand. I do not deny that the Minister has is simply wrong to say that that is my “thesis”, as he put done something pretty significant in respect of state it. My thesis is that the Minister has underestimated the pensions, and I know that he must maintain a balance scale of the problems in the private pension market, and between pension schemes, but is it really good enough that the Bill and his comments on our new clauses for him to respond to us by saying, “We need to do suggest that he continues to do so. He says that Labour something—we need to go further—but we need a should have done this and should have done that, but I creative approach rather than your approach, which is assure him that had I been pensions Minister in 2010, focused on annuities”? the first task on which a Labour Government would Annuities are the product that most people have to have focused would have been making the changes to buy, and I think it unfair of the Minister to reject our auto-enrolment that were necessary to ensure that every new clause on the grounds that he prefers a more saver was given value for money. [Interruption.] The creative approach without explaining what that creative new Whip, the hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin approach will be. I know that he has a great deal on his Barwell), of whom I am extremely fond, has just said plate with state pension reform—winding up the state something that I could not hear because I was talking at second pension as quickly as he intends to wind it up the same time as he was mumbling, but I am sure that it constitutes an incredibly big reform—but I ask him to was shrewd and thoughtful. reflect on whether it is good enough to say to people The Minister talks of views. This is the Opposition’s who have saved throughout their lives, and who are now critique. He has announced, “I want to carry out a receiving much less than they could have received had radical reform of the state pension. I want to move they shopped around, “We cannot support the Opposition’s from a very slow merging of the state second pension new clause because although an awful lot needs to be and the flat rate state pension to a hard and fast done and we need to go further, we need a more creative wind-up.” That is a complicated process that will take approach.” I do not believe that anyone will be convinced up a great deal of time. Meanwhile, he has been focusing by that. on another issue, that of “defined ambition”. He spoke about that to the NAPF as well. 2.15 pm My specific critique of the Minister’s approach is to The fact that people do not shop around for annuities do with sequencing. Given his intentions and actions in is not the industry’s problem. Where there are shareholders, respect of the state second pension, he should have the industry exists to deliver shareholder value. If individuals made sure that there is nothing in the auto-enrolment choose to remain with their existing provider, the industry market that could end up with any of the 10 million can encourage them to shop around—as it is currently savers who are going to be automatically enrolled getting doing by means of the open market option—but at less than value for money. At one level the Minister some stage the industry will rightly say, “We have made does not disagree with that, because he told the NAPF efforts, but people are still not shopping around.” The that we will look back at this period as either one when Government must take action to ensure that people are something happened that was for the long-term good or given independent advice that will enable them to secure as one when the problems in the private pension market the best possible deal. That is in all our interests, because were not dealt with. The Minister has been too slow to the more retirement income our constituents have, the get on to this and, based on what he has said today, he is more decent, enjoyable and, hopefully, long retirement still not taking the necessary action. He is saying he they will experience. might take action, but his words, which I will examine New clause 11 eliminates the gap between the Minister’s shortly, reveal it is in fact the appearance of action rhetoric about the tough action that he will take to deal without the reality of action. with problems in the pension market and the reality. At Let me develop that argument with reference to new present, he is saying, “We will not do what you suggest, clause 1 and our amendment (a). The Minister announced 793 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 794

[Gregg McClymont] defensible position, but it gives credence to the Opposition argument that the Minister has been slow to realise just that there will be a consultation on a possible charge how dysfunctional this market is. The Minister said in cap. We all knew that was coming: the Minister trailed it January: extensively. What did the Minister say about this “Why does the Government not set a price cap on a tin of consultation? First, it is important to note that it is a baked beans? We do not need to because there is a vibrant consultation, which, of course, does not commit the market; people have lots of choice”. Government to doing anything. A consultation is not Yet today the Minister used the baked beans example the same as legislation. The Minister became more himself and said categorically that the market is not like engaged as he was speaking, and he finished by saying a tin of beans. That suggests the Minister has moved on that this is a full-frontal assault on pension charges. The this issue, which we welcome, but it raises this question: problem is he also said, “We will look at how far we can if he did not get it nine months ago, does he get it now? get.” A whole range of activity on charges has been The way to test that is to look at what he said about undertaken, but, when he lists them, it is clear that they charges, disclosure and caps in respect of new clause 1. are mostly consultations. I give him credit on consultancy The Minister made it clear that the consultation is charges. The Minister acted decisively on that, but he happening and it is important, and he pointed back to needs to take similarly decisive action on the wider stakeholder pensions and said, “The Labour Government pension charges problem. brought in stakeholder pensions in 2001, but look at The Minister’s language was instructive. He wanted how high the charges were capped.” I think the Minister to dress up a consultation as action, but it is not action. will agree that he and this Government, by taking on He floated the possibility that one consultation option the Turner consensus developed by the last Government, will be a cap of 75 basis points, but he did not say what are grappling with fundamental legacies of pension the other options would be. Given my knowledge over policy decisions made by previous Conservative two years of the way the Minister proceeds, I doubt that Governments in particular. [Interruption.] The Minister this will be a consultation with only one option, so will says Labour ones, too, but let me develop this argument. he tell us what the various options for a charge cap will The Thatcher Government did—I am sure for the be? He is probably giving the House only partial information best of intentions—a couple of things, one of which by noting there will be one option of 75 basis points. was breaking the link between earnings and the state So the Minister announces a consultation, cherry-picks, pension, but we can come on to that when we talk about for the benefit of his statement this afternoon, some of state pensions later. Specifically pertinent to the clauses the things that will be in it, but no one in the House has and amendments currently under discussion, however, yet seen the consultation and been able to examine it. the Thatcher Government decided to encourage the That suggests the Pensions Minister is under pressure to taking out of personal private pensions and thereby get going on reforming the private pensions market, encouraged—I will put it no stronger than that—5 million specifically in terms of costs and charges. That was what people to leave the state earnings-related pension scheme one felt when listening to the Minister. Not only did he and/or occupational schemes. The Minister knows about spend a lot of time rebutting Labour’s vision for private pension pillars. The state pension is one pillar, and pensions, but he felt the need to oversell what the additional pension saving is another. What the Minister Government are doing. I would say he felt that need is trying to do in this Bill is reform the first pillar because he feels under pressure on this issue. [Interruption.] radically and make sure the additional pillar delivers The Minister suggests I am psychoanalysing him. As a effectively. That was the approach the Turner commission historian rather than a psychoanalyst by trade, I will set out, and I am pleased to see the Minister nodding in now present some evidence to support this view of the agreement. The Turner commission reached that conclusion Minister. because it recognised that both pillars had to be rebuilt Just over a year ago, when Labour pointed out the after the policy mistakes of the 1980s. problems with charges, the Minister said we were scaremongering. However—to take us back to the issue 2.30 pm of the tin of beans, as I promised—the Minister said in Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): The hon. Gentleman his statement that the pensions market is not like a tin talks about policy mistakes of the Thatcher Government of beans and that is why we have to look at a charge cap, and about previous Governments. Will he admit that but he also said in January this year, “I’m not sure a one of the most damaging things for our pension provision charge cap’s the way to go because the pensions market was the previous Prime Minister’s £100 billion raid on is like a tin of beans.” First, that suggests an obsession our pensions when he was Chancellor? with tins of beans, which one would never have expected of the Minister, but it also suggests a little confusion in Gregg McClymont: I assume the hon. Gentleman is the Minister’s mind about what kind of market the referring to the decision to remove the dividend— pensions market is. [Interruption.] I say to him, first, that I do not know The Minister now says categorically, “The pension where he gets that figure from. I have heard it from market is not like a tin of beans, so a charge cap has to Conservative MPs, in particular, but I would be delighted be consulted upon”, but in January 2014 the Minister is if he explained where he got it from. I would be interested, quoted by AOL Money UK as saying there is no case because anyone who has looked at the matter closely for a pension charges cap and would say that the figure had been plucked out of “he is not yet persuaded that the Government should cap pension nowhere. Pensions are a long-term business, and I am charges.” not suggesting that the only Governments who ever The Minister can say he has changed his mind. I have made a mistake were previous Conservative Governments. absolutely no problem with that. He says he was not However, the fundamental policy decisions that set the persuaded and now he is persuaded. That is a perfectly UK on a slippery slope regarding additional pension 795 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 796 savings were the mistakes the Thatcher Government if we had the disclosure of transaction costs, that would made through the enormous encouragement given to enable everyone with an interest in ensuring good pension personal private pensions. outcomes, including the Government, to have the evidence The hon. Gentleman might remember, or might have at their fingertips to say to interested parties, stakeholders read about, the way in which an army of pension and, in particular, pension companies and fund managers, salesmen was unleashed to persuade people that they “That’s what you are charging? That’s not on.” How can should leave high-quality occupational schemes or the the Minister not want to have all the evidence at his high-quality second state pension—the state earnings-related fingertips? He is taking a strange position. He says that pension scheme—and go into personal pensions. They he is carrying out a consultation on charges. We know were offered enormous lump sums, not realising that that is a shift in his position, for the reasons I have set such sums, up front, actually came out of their pension out and given his previous comments, but he is still savings. They were promised enormous returns, and behind the curve because he does not support the full they were promised that they could pay less into a disclosure of transaction costs—he certainly will not pension and get a much better retirement income. Where support our amendment (a), which will make such did that lead? It led directly to the private pension disclosure a reality. mis-selling scandals, whose legacy of public mistrust of Let us be clear about this: we simply do not know pensions we all live with today. what happens on costs when pension moneys are put That relates back to my point about the Minister’s into the “investment chain”. That seems an obscure approach. He is trying to build back up and deliver, or term, but I am talking about where someone saves into try to deliver on, a consensus around the Turner a pension, their pension provider passes the pension proposals—that is the right thing to do. However, if he savings to fund managers—they are often in the same is going for a hard, fast wind-up of the second state organisation, because, as with the energy sector, there is pension, with the losers being low-paid private sector a lot of vertical integration—and then the savings are workers, he has to be clear and convinced that every invested. There is no comprehensive disclosure of all auto-enrolment scheme—10 million people are going the costs that accrue in that process, and that cannot into these schemes—delivers value for money. That is stand for much longer in the 21st century. where my view, and that of Opposition Members, that The Minister was quoted as saying at the NAPF he has not moved fast enough comes from, and it is conference—if he has been quoted unfairly, I urge him evident in his change in view that I have cited. His view to intervene to say so—not only that transparency “gets on the private pensions market has evolved. We welcome you virtually nowhere”, but that one had to strike a his movement, but we say to him that he has to move “balance” between the public’s right to know about faster, and that leads me to amendment (a). transaction charges and the costs to fund managers of We have to draw a distinction between costs and disclosure. We hear that argument a lot across political charges. Our amendment would, in particular, make debate. It is not a foolish argument in some cases, but it possible the disclosure of all transaction costs. The is in this case, because fund management is such an Minister alluded to that, saying, rightly, that we cannot opaque business and, according to the things we hear— have transaction costs in the cap. I absolutely agree with without access to the facts we cannot know for sure—the that; I do not know anyone who would say that transaction costs can be significant. Hon. Members should not take costs could be included in the cap. However, we need to my word for it. The Secretary of State for Business, ensure that the transaction costs are disclosed to employees Innovation and Skills commissioned the Kay report on and employers. He suggested that it was odd that the equity markets and “long-termism”, and Professor Kay Opposition would want there to be a statutory record of made it clear that all transaction costs should be disclosed. costs and charges, but that is not odd; it is central to Professor Kay was clear about that, on behalf of the reforming the private pensions market. Government—or, certainly, at the behest of the Minister’s Steve Webb: A few minutes ago, the hon. Gentleman Liberal Democrat colleague the Business Secretary— rebuked me for saying that engagement was important, because of the evidence he had gathered that fund because for most people this is all about inertia, but he managers can over-churn pension fund savings. What is now saying that employees are going to go to the do I mean by “over-churn”? The incentives lie in pensions regulator’s website to look at transaction cost commissions for trading, and so rather than hold on to charges on their pension. Those two things cannot both assets for the long-term—what one might call the “Warren be right. Buffett” approach, which is a very successful long-term approach to investing and is consonant with the long-term Gregg McClymont: That is not what I was saying, nature of pensions—fund managers have a big interest and I will explain why. I am not surprised by the in constantly trading, because that generates commissions. Minister’s response, because it probably explains why he That might be the case, or it might not. We simply do was reported as saying at the NAPF conference that not know, because those things are not disclosed. The transparency “gets you virtually nowhere”. I assume Minister trumpets new clause 1, but it does not include the basis for that view, which at first glance appears any disclosure of transaction costs. If we want to move odd, is that he takes the point that I have been making to an auto-enrolment system and have in mind the throughout this debate that seeing the pensions market 10 million people who will be automatically enrolled, as as one where the saver is always is in charge or can a sine qua non of reform we must ensure that the always be in charge is simply wrong. I just put that on transaction costs are disclosed. the record, but now let me deal with his point directly. I am not sure whether you are aware, Madam Deputy First, I do not see any basis on which one can be Speaker, but just over a year ago the Royal Society of against the full disclosure of everything that has an Arts investigated what pension providers understand by impact on pensions, including transaction costs. Secondly, “the costs and charges” of a pension. It contacted 797 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 798

[Gregg McClymont] 2.45 pm Let me deal with the point made by the hon. Member 25 big providers and the vast majority told it that the for Warrington South (David Mowat). If the Government full costs and charges of a pension scheme were simply were to accept our amendment (a), there would be full the annual management charge, not the total expenses disclosure of transaction charges. It would not have to ratio and not transaction costs. Our argument is that be put out to consultation. The Minister says that one the Minister has been too slow to recognise how must weigh the costs to the fund management industry dysfunctional the private pension market remains. We against the benefits to savers, but my view is that that welcome the fact that he is moving, but he is doing so balance means that we must have full disclosure. I think far too slowly. As evidence of that, we cite the fact that that message from the Opposition is clear. he will not commit the Government today to the provision Finally, let me put this in context. The Minister has on the disclosure of transaction costs. Our amendment proposed new clause 1 as the framework around which (a) to new clause 1 would ensure the disclosure of we will discuss private pensions today. He referred to transaction costs. the fact that he has for some time had the powers to cap Our other amendments, as they pertain to the scale charges, but has not used them. One suspects that new and value of pension schemes, to trustees and to annuities, clause 1 is a way for the Minister—and I do not complain would make a significant difference in the market. They about this—to promote and publicise his desire to be would start to make the changes that are necessary to seen to take decisive action on pension charges. It is ensure that everybody gets value for money. worth pointing out, however, as the Minister has pointed out to me several times, that he already has powers to Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Does cap charges. I tell the hon. Member for Warrington my hon. Friend make a distinction between a scheme South, whom I greatly respect on these issues, that those with trustees and one under which the member must powers have been in place for some time— look after their own interests as it has no provision for a set of trustees to oversee it? Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is addressing a Gregg McClymont: My hon. Friend makes a very great many issues in this group of clauses and amendments, good point. The logic of moving to a system in which but, having heard his arguments several times, I trust every scheme has independent trustees flows from the that he will soon be drawing his remarks to a conclusion. fact that in the pensions market as it stands the consumer who is a member of a scheme without trustees cannot Gregg McClymont: Thank you for that wise advice, have their voice heard. What happens then? The interests Madam Deputy Speaker. I was somewhat sidetracked of shareholders over-dominate. In a market that functions by the excellent intervention—[Interruption.] That is effectively, of course, the consumer can shop around, another intervention from the Parliamentary Private compare prices and if they buy something that they do Secretary.If Members want to stand up and say something, not like they can even buy something else. None of that I am happy to take an intervention. If they want to is true of the pensions market and that is why, in our heckle from the back row, I will continue to respond to view and given the options available, reaching a situation those heckles. in which every scheme has trustees is the best way to try to ensure proper representation of saver interests. My Where are we? The Minister wants to be seen to be hon. Friend is absolutely right. taking decisive action on pension charges but today he has called for yet another consultation. He has moved David Mowat: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s on during the past year, as he had said that Labour was argument, and it seems to me that all his points should scaremongering and he could see no need for a cap. The be input into the consultation the Minister announced consultation is a development, but we need action now. earlier. The Minister made it quite clear that one issue Our amendment (a) to new clause 1 would ensure full that would be consulted on was a cap of 0.75%, and disclosure of all costs and charges and our other proposals that among the issues to be resolved was what factors would ensure a private pension system that would mean would be included—for example, total expense ratios, that everyone who was auto-enrolled would get value annual management charges or any other kind of charge. for money. The Minister is right that auto-enrolment Those are all legitimate topics for consultation. I welcome started well, but he knows as well as I do that the key is the discussion, as it is surely the right thing. the smaller employers. We are determined that everyone should get a good deal from auto-enrolment and I therefore commend our new clauses and amendments Gregg McClymont: I do not disagree with any of to the House. that, apart from the fact that the chance to take the necessary steps has today been laid in front of the Government and the Minister. We must concede that Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): This is the first auto-enrolment is already well under way, but at what time I have made a speech while you have been in the stage will we see the action that is necessary? We will be Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, so let me add my warm in 2017 before we know it, when everyone will be congratulations to the many that you have already been auto-enrolled, and if the Minister has continued to given. consult rather than act we will be no further forward. Our debate today has been a pretty specialist affair so The Minister has taken action on consultancy charges—he far, in a different language from that which many of our can do it—and I give him credit for that. He is undertaking constituents speak. It has no doubt been a struggle for a significant reform of the state pension, which we will many in the Public Gallery to remain awake throughout. discuss later, and he has many things to deal with, but As we dive into the detail, let us not forget the goal: the the Government must act faster on these issues. Bill’s aims are simplicity, clarity, a reduction in the flaws 799 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 800 in means-testing and, above all, to ensure that it always Minister rightly said, is that we must not have small pays to save. Some of that was rather lost in the 85 minutes pots that follow the member into a bad scheme. We for which the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for must focus on all schemes being good. That is why it is Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg important to legislate for quality schemes, as the coalition McClymont) spoke, so let me try to bring us swiftly Government are doing. back to the main points of detail. I welcome the amendment that the Minister mentioned Earlier we tackled auto-enrolment, small pots, whereby those who have been in a scheme for less than aggregators, charges, scale and annuities. No doubt that 30 days will get a refund, but it is important that the would be enough to put many people off listening to practice which has grown up over time of people being any more, but let me add my thoughts briefly on each in in schemes for less than two years and being bought out turn. First, on auto-enrolment, the Minister outlined for a not very significant sum comes to an end. I the success so far—1.7 million people already enrolled welcome that, as will many people across the land. and 90% of them staying in. The hon. Member for After small pots and aggregators, we come to the rub Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East said that of the issue—charges. The Minister rightly observed he was cautious and that that percentage might not be that 1% compounded over time amounts to a huge sustainable as we started enrolling those in smaller amount of money paid out in charges to fund managers firms across the country. He may well be right about and administrators, and that it is important to follow that. The Minister will be acutely aware of that, which the recommendations of the Office of Fair Trading is why he is right to tackle some of the detail now, ahead report, which noted that pension savings is one of the of the smallest companies enrolling. worst sectors for charges, that the demand side is weak The important thing in the section on auto-enrolment and that there is the contradiction of the employer was the changes outlined today—two opt-outs, for those choosing the manager, but the member effectively paying who have already given notice of leaving their employer for that choice. and for those who would suffer negative tax penalties I welcome, and many Members across the House and because they had already accumulated more than the others outside this place should welcome, the opportunity maximum allowed for tax-free savings. The Minister to look objectively and constructively at the issue of confirmed that there is absolutely no intention of excluding charges through a consultation. The option of 0.7% is small and medium-sized enterprises, the lifeblood of no doubt at the lower end of options out there. That every Member’s constituency. That is important, and he gives this Government and Members a chance to see rightly summarised Labour’s amendment 53 as unnecessary, what might be the most practical options, bearing in unclear and ineffectual. mind always that we do not want to limit the management The discussion on small pots, importantly, covered of those funds to a handful of very large providers—the the differences between the pot follows member approach equivalent of supermarkets in a world where sometimes recommended by the coalition Government and the a delicatessen tailoring their investment to what members aggregator approach proposed by the Opposition. The need can be an attractive and practical option. precedent of Australia is relevant. Those 5 million lost The process of a consultation on charges clearly accounts worth some 20 billion Australian dollars are needs to include a definition of those charges. I was not a small matter. Millions of our constituents are disappointed to hear so little of substance from the affected. Those of us who have accumulated small pots shadow Minister on the subject of charges. He did not at different periods in our life know that it is extremely even mention total expense ratio or any of the other hard to keep track of them and to have any idea of what aspects and acronyms that comprise charges, which are our savings really are. The whole business of pensions is beloved of my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington ultimately about savings. It is about accumulating a pot South (David Mowat) and others of us who have previously of money which will see us safely through retirement, worked in the sector. There was no detail at all from the ensuring that we can live after retirement without having Opposition spokesman and, at the end of his 85 minutes to fall back on savings. of speaking, I am none the wiser about the charge that the Opposition are recommending Mr Donohoe: Does the hon. Gentleman also consider On charges generally, I think I can summarise the that a pension pot is a deferred income and should be shadow Minister’s speech for Members and especially treated as such? The problem is that not many people for those in the Gallery, whose concentration may do so. understandably have wandered during those 85 minutes. There were four messages that he wanted to get out: Richard Graham: The hon. Gentleman is right in the first, highlight the fact that the coalition will do nothing sense that all savings are ultimately deferred income. If for living standards; secondly, accuse the Government he is trying to differentiate capital and income from of sticking up for big business, not small pensioners; investments, which I do not think he is, that is a separate thirdly, sound as if the Opposition are offering an issue. I accept his point that ultimately everything is energy price freeze; and fourthly, do not give a precise deferred income, though I would prefer the word “savings”, figure. The approach behind all that is not to let the as we will all need savings at some point. There is no facts get in the way of the narrative. That, in about significant difference between us on that. 12 seconds, broadly covers what the shadow Minister The Opposition approach is towards an aggregator, said in 85 minutes on the issue of charges. which is an uncomfortable world where there is no The approach of the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, choice and our savings pot is shunted off in a Thomas Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East to the Government’s the tank engine-like way to God knows where. We will recommendation of a consultation amounted to a simple not get into allusions from the names of the engines in slogan: consultation, not action. This, I thought, was a “Thomas the Tank Engine”. That would be unfortunate curious approach by the shadow Minister. He earlier and arguably inappropriate. The important thing, as the intimated that he is very cautious about the implementation 801 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 802

[Richard Graham] but I did not contribute. When I have good ideas, which is rarely, I either keep them to myself or share them with of auto-enrolment—the results might not be as good as colleagues verbally. I do not put them down on pieces of they have started out to be and it was too early to paper for him to read, or not read as the case may be. I celebrate. He gave the impression of being a very cautious hope that he will take on board that correction. I am a driver, one who was unwilling to take unnecessary risks member of the Forty Group, but I was not a contributor, and who wanted the Minister to make sure that he and there is a difference. keeps the car on the road. Such analogies were built into the hon. Gentleman’s Gregg McClymont: This is all very curious, because approach, but caution is precisely why, after 13 years of the front cover of the document refers to “40 Policy the previous Government, auto-enrolment had not been Ideas from the 40”, and its states: implemented. It is precisely why they did not pursue “The Forty Group consists of the forty most marginal Conservative universal credit. As the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, seats”. the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West One of the MPs listed is the hon. Gentleman— (Mr Darling), admitted, it was too difficult. It is precisely why the previous Government were unable to make Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Laing): Order. We are decisions—no nuclear power stations, no changes to the straying somewhat from the amendments and new clauses schools funding formula, no privatisation of Royal before us. If there is a difference of opinion, it will have Mail, too little stimulus to apprenticeships, very little to remain as such. I urge hon. Gentlemen on both sides impact on manufacturing. It was all too difficult. of the Chamber please to stick to the points before us The approach of the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, on private pensions. Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East today is to try to take credit for his party for the idea of auto-enrolment, and Richard Graham: I welcome your advice, Madam then to snipe at the detail offered by the Minister. The Deputy Speaker. hon. Gentleman coupled that with something close to Before the shadow Minister intervened, I had been an apology for the previous Government not having referring to scale. I touched briefly on the fact that size done enough in the world of pensions, but it was a little is not everything when it comes to the management of like the policemen on Plebgate recently—it was not a pension funds, as with so much else in life, Madam wholehearted apology, but rather a nudge towards an Deputy Speaker. In order not to delay you further on apology. That was disappointing, because the central that point, I will move swiftly on to annuities. issue of charges is precisely what the debate is likely to Annuities matter. We are in a new world, as the focus on. Minister said, because we are living longer and we need The shadow Minister alluded seven times, I think—I more options. There is more to annuities than simply a tried to keep count—to what he called the policy paper, need for more competition, choice and help, although “40 Policy Ideas from the 40”. He wrote me a charming that is important and the code of conduct from the letter about it: Association of British Insurers is a promising start. I ‘Dear Richard… The policy paper entitled “40 ideas from the agree with the Minister, though, that we should go 40”, to which you were a contributor’— further. At the heart of the matter is transferability—being I was not a contributor. I fear that he might not have able to trade annuities at different periods of life when read it in sufficient detail to understand who was and different circumstances crop up and when there is different who was not a contributor. However, he was absolutely pricing in the marketplace. What we certainly do not right that my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington want is a single product solution. I was lobbied heavily South was a contributor and that he mentioned the lack at the Conservative party conference by an annuity of transparency in costs and charges in almost exactly provider who was keen to impress on me the importance the same language, as he confirmed today, as the Minister and relevance of their single product solution, but my used when he called for the consultation on charges, instinct—I hope that the Minister is with me on this—is which I think we all welcome and look forward to. that such solutions are precisely what we do not need in the world of annuities. 3pm Those were the six main points I wanted to cover— I have now covered the issue of charges, which leaves auto-enrolment, small pots, aggregators, charges, scale me with scale and annuities. Had Mr Speaker still been and annuities—and I have done so in about seven here, I would have said on the issue of scale that both he minutes. There is no need to go on for much longer, but and I could arguably be accused of self-interest in I will try to bring my speech to some sort of rounded making the point that size is not everything. conclusion by asking the Minister to note three queries Gregg McClymont: There is a joke in that somewhere, that constituents have raised with me. but I will not go there. I was just struck that the hon. The first query, which I think is important for Members Gentleman—we have debated this in Committee—said across the House, relates to bereavement support payment. that he was not a member of the Forty Group. I have in It is clearly an emotional issue, as all families who have front of me a copy of “40 Policy Ideas from the 40”, had to deal with tragedy will understand, particularly which states that the group when it comes to bereaved children. Winston’s Wish is a “consists of the forty most marginal Conservative seats”, charity headquartered in the constituency of the hon. and he is one of the Members listed. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), but it has a significant presence in mine. It has made a number of Richard Graham: The shadow Minister must learn to points, not all of which I agree with, but one is that the be more precise in what he says. His letter referred to tax status of bereavement support payment is slightly ‘“40 ideas from the 40”, to which you were a contributor’ unclear. I would be grateful if the Minister could say 803 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 804 more about that and whether it will be tax-free, because these higher national insurance costs. I understand that that would be hugely appreciated. Given that the trend the Government have still not responded to their own of his proposals on bereavement support payment is consultation on whether to exempt protected persons effectively to increase the amount of money but have it from these changes. The Minister might care to comment paid for a shorter time, having that payment tax-free on that later. It might be something that the Treasury is would be hugely helpful for families affected. There is a involved in, alongside the Department for Work and second point from Winston’s Wish that I want to raise Pensions, but I think that it would be right to express with the Minister. I understand that unmarried partners concern on behalf of some of the pensioners involved. are currently ineligible for BSP, so perhaps he will However, I understand that there is an argument that confirm whether people in civil partnerships are eligible. both existing pensioners and current members of a The second query from a constituent relates to changes pension scheme should be treated with consistency on to occupational schemes, which my constituent believes that. I raise the issue so that the Minister can respond. can be done under the Bill without agreement from Those were the three queries on bereavement, change of either members or trustees; currently trustees would occupational schemes—which has been answered—and have to approve it. My instinct is that long-standing the protected persons scheme. defined benefit schemes, such as that of the major In conclusion, what the Government are proposing in nuclear power operator headquartered in Barnwood in the Pensions Bill is important and will make a difference. my constituency—formerly British Energy but now EDF The changes will enable people to save and that saving Energy—are most unlikely to close without any form of will pay. The technical details, which the Minister covered consultation or discussion with members or trustees, earlier, are important for smoothing out some of the but I would be grateful if the Minister would comment small but niggly details that will affect our constituents on that. in due course. Steve Webb: It might benefit the House to know that At the risk of repeating myself, I am disappointed by the measure in the Bill to which my hon. Friend refers is the approach taken by the shadow Minister, the hon. the statutory override, which simply allows employers Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch to recoup the loss of national insurance rebate. The East. For him and his party to fall back on a slogan of state pension changes imply a change to the national “consultation not action” really was disappointing; after insurance regime, so his constituency employer would 86 minutes we would have hoped for a great deal more lose some money. The Bill simply allows them to recoup clarity on his precise proposals. What exactly does he that cash and nothing else, for example by changing the intend to do on charges? In the absence of such clarity, I accrual rates in the scheme. It is designed to help hope that he and Members from all parties will make employers cushion the blow of the loss of the rebates. substantive contributions to the consultation so that we can agree on the charges, make changes to the annuity Richard Graham: I am grateful to the Minister for details and say with pride to all our constituents that that clarification. If I understand it correctly, the employer this Pensions Bill will make a difference to all our lives will recoup the cost of the national insurance but nothing in retirement. else? Caroline Lucas: I have tabled new clause 12 and Steve Webb indicated assent. amendments 54 and 55 in order to highlight the need for the Department for Work and Pensions to address Richard Graham: I am glad to see the Minister nodding the systemic risks posed by climate change and natural on that. resource depletion to pension schemes as a whole, and to suggest some positive solutions. Katy Clark: Like the hon. Gentleman, I have nuclear power stations in my constituency—Hunterston A, which The Minister has already mentioned the report launched is currently being decommissioned, and Hunterston B. today as part of the new green light campaign by Has he, like me, been contacted by numerous employees ShareAction, in partnership with the trade unions and who are incredibly concerned about the protections that environmental groups, which highlights the urgent need will be taken away from them by this legislation? for reforms to the pension industry to ensure that it takes greater account of climate and environmental Richard Graham: That is an interesting point. The risks. I am glad that the Minister was able to be present answer is yes, but they are not in the hundreds. They to launch it. come in two types. One type number those who are Obviously, pension funds use the money paid into either still working there and are concerned about possible them every month to make investments in shares of changes to the defined benefit scheme and exactly the companies, bonds, properties and other assets, which issue I have just gone through with the Minister. I hope makes them enormously powerful players in shaping that that will be reassuring to the hon. Lady’s constituents the economy, especially as they have significant investments as well as to mine. in fossil fuel companies. However, if we want to keep The second type of person who has been in touch climate change below dangerous levels, we need pension relates to the third constituency query I was going to funds to fund and support a low-carbon economy by, raise: those members who are covered by the Electricity for example, investing in clean technologies and low-carbon (Protected Persons) (England and Wales) Pension infrastructure projects. Moreover, today’s report shows Regulations 1990. I see the hon. Member for North that the UK pension funds have £3 trillion at risk from Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) nodding and suspect so-called unusable fossil fuel investments—fossil fuels that she has been contacted by people in a similar which, if we are serious about keeping to our climate situation. The issue is that their pensions might be change commitments, we simply cannot afford to burn. affected by changes to their pension schemes to reflect That is a huge threat to the incomes of future pensioners. 805 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 806

[Caroline Lucas] 3.15 pm That divestment has started. Nordic life and pensions In the UK an increasing number of voices are speaking company Storebrand, which has more than 450 billion out about the need for pension funds and others to kroner of assets under management, excluded 19 fossil divest themselves of fossil fuel assets. Operation Noah fuel companies from its investment line-up in July. That has launched “Bright Now”, a church divestment campaign exclusion was based on concerns about the long-term whose first success came early this month when Quakers financial risks of remaining invested in carbon dioxide- in Britain announced that they will disinvest from companies intensive companies. engaged in extracting fossil fuels, which made them the Amendment 54 relates to the objectives of the Pensions first UK Christian denomination to do so. Regulator. Clause 42 gives the regulator a new objective UK university students are increasingly engaged in to divestment campaigns, as evidenced by the work undertaken “minimise any adverse impact on the sustainable growth of an by People & Planet. To date, there are 19 active divestment employer,” campaigns across the UK, including universities with large endowments: Cambridge, Oxford and Edinburgh. which is pretty controversial, because it is based on the view that servicing pension deficits is hampering the Looking further afield, 70 of the largest pension ability of business to invest. My amendment would funds in the US and the world issued a statement last insert a new objective requiring the regulator also to week setting out their view that major fossil fuel companies may not be as profitable in the future, precisely because “promote, and to improve understanding of long-term and sustainable investment” of efforts to limit climate change. They are asking for details on how the firms will manage a long-term shift by pension schemes. to cleaner energy sources. The current regulatory regime is fragmented: both Here at Westminster, the recent Business, Innovation the Pensions Regulator and the Financial Conduct and Skills Committee report on the Kay review of the Authority have some responsibility for work-based pensions. UK equity market and long-term decision making, The regulator, however, has historically been reluctant which was produced earlier this year, recommended to look under the bonnet of schemes’ investment strategies, that the stewardship code should do more to address focusing instead on governance and administration. environmental, social and governance factors and systemic The FCA has also paid little attention to the matter, financial risks, as well as calling for more robust reporting seeing it as the regulator’s responsibility. Both treat on conflicts of interest. sustainability as at best a sideshow and at worst an irrelevance. The amendment would specifically mandate I agree with the Minister’s comments this morning the regulator to pay attention to the issues. about the need for fiduciary duty to consider climate and environmental risks to our pension system and for Finally, amendment 55 would amend schedule 16, this to be in the mainstream, first, because that is which gives the Government powers to introduce new important to reduce the risks to pension holders themselves, quality standards for automatic enrolment schemes through and secondly, in order to harness the huge contribution regulations. Consumer groups have rightly argued that that pension funds can make to the massive investment Government have a responsibility to make sure that that we need in clean energy infrastructure. New clause 12 people’s pensions cannot be transferred out of a good and amendments 54 and 55 make modest proposals of scheme into a bad scheme. The Bill as drafted provides ways in which the Department could make that happen. that the new quality standards may in particular relate New clause 12 would require the Secretary of State to to governance and administration, which is welcome, but it is equally important for policy makers to look “commission an independent review of the implications of climate under the bonnet of schemes’ investment strategies, if change and natural resource constraints for the sustainability of private pensions.” they are to operate in the best interests of pensioners. The amendment would, therefore, add a third leg to the The review should quality standards relating to the ability of the scheme to “consider the implications for long-term investment outcomes for generate sustainable investment returns. The detail of members of work-based pension schemes of potential…systemic any such standards could include reference to a scheme’s risks posed by high levels of exposure to fossil fuels and other carbon-intensive assets…economic and physical impacts of climate policy and practice on things such as climate change change under various climate mitigation scenarios; and…constraints risks, including natural resource depletion. on the availability of non-renewable resources”, I welcome the fact that in his opening comments the such as food, land and water resources. Minister spoke pretty favourably about that agenda and That proposal builds on a landmark paper by the my amendments, and I understand his point that he actuarial profession that modelled the implication of needs to take a cross-Government, integrated approach resource constraints for private pensions and found to what fiduciary duty really involves. I do not, however, that, even in the best-case scenario, pension outcomes see that as an argument against my amendments—at are likely to be worse than currently predicted because least not all of them. the industry is not factoring in risks associated with I draw the Minister’s attention to new clause 12 in those constraints on food, water and land. In the worst-case particular. It is specific to the pensions field and is scenario, savers in the model of a defined-contribution about finding the evidence that will help feed into pension scheme were only half as well off, while the precisely the cross-Government approach he advocates. defined-benefit pension scheme became insolvent. The I ask him again to accept the new clause, which would new clause also builds on work by Carbon Tracker on at least give us some comfort and reassurance that he is unburnable carbon, which shows that if the aim is to serious about delivering on his warm words this morning. secure long-term returns, divesting from fossil fuel assets The new clause is not just about fiduciary duty; it is would be a pretty sensible thing to do. about gathering data on the impact of climate change 807 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 808 and natural resource constraints for the sustainability provision on capping charges. It would be better to be of private pensions and for a better understanding of more specific about that and not to wait too long for a the systemic risks posed by high levels of exposure to consultation process that could have been started a fossil fuels and other carbon-intensive assets. To my considerable time ago. mind, that is a prerequisite for any future integration I know that other hon. Members want to contribute across Government of this kind of concern. I see it as to the debate, but I want to say a little about the view an issue not of moving ahead of the rest of the Government, expressed by the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard but of gathering information that will be very useful to Graham), who did not accept my intervention, that the Government. I ask the Minister again to consider accepting last Government did not do much for pensioners. The new clause 12. subtext seemed to be that all our views and proposals could therefore be discounted. Hundreds of thousands Sheila Gilmore: I want to speak on Opposition new of pensioners saw a substantial increase in their income, clause 11 on annuities. The scandal of annuities was and therefore in their well-being and health, because of widespread and is well known. It has caused many provisions such as pension credit that were introduced people to suffer a much reduced income in retirement. by the last Government. That is not to say that there The Minister, with all due respect, engaged in diversionary were not problems with those provisions, or that they tactics when dealing with the Opposition proposal. He would have been needed in an ideal world. talked about other things that people might do when Much of the debate at that time focused on restoring they are reaching retirement age and planning for their the earnings link because, unlike now, earnings were retirement. He spoke about other draw-down opportunities outstripping prices. Everybody who was campaigning that might be better for them and said that people on the issue focused on that. However, restoring the should get as much advice as possible. He failed to deal earnings link and letting things move up gradually with the specific proposal. would not have helped the many pensioners who had a It is not good enough simply to say that it would be very quick increase in their income and well-being. good for people to have many different opportunities Many of those people were women, because women and a lot of advice. It is important to ensure that when often end up being the poorest in retirement. Those people are deciding whether to annuitise, which they people would tell us very clearly how important that will ultimately have to do, they know all the options. It was for them. It is not fair—indeed, it is quite wrong—to is not necessary for everyone to annuitise as soon as rewrite history and suggest that it was not helpful. they reach retirement age; that decision can be postponed. As I have said in previous debates, the fact that that The question is who should advise people about this expenditure was in place made the job of introducing matter and how we can ensure that people know all the the single-tier pension easier for the Minister. We will options. The variety in the kinds of annuity that are discuss the single-tier pension in due course. That offered and the deals that people can get is considerable. expenditure is one of the underpinnings that has allowed him to introduce the single-tier pension, apparently Annuities are an important element in creating a without increasing the overall expenditure on state pensions. retirement income that is adequate for people to live on. Indeed, it is predicted that the overall expenditure will I urge the Minister to change his view and to accept that decrease in the long term. I hope that everyone will the arrangements that the Opposition are proposing do accept that the Labour Government did a great amount not fly in the face of his desire to explain other options of thinking and work on pensions. to people and to give people those options. Many of the people who fare the worst do not have such substantial We must remember that many people were paying pension pots that they have a wide range of options and into pension schemes of various kinds long before they cannot necessarily afford to postpone annuitisation, auto-enrolment, perhaps with the assistance of an employer because they do not have much other income. or perhaps because they chose to do so themselves. We must ensure that we protect those people; otherwise As ever, it is the role of Parliament and of Government they will lose out. The same is true of how we carry to protect those who are in the weakest position. We forward small pots for different individuals. There are must always have those people in mind. Those who have still serious concerns among people who are knowledgeable lots of options probably receive good advice anyway or about the industry that the Minister’s pot follows member could afford to pay for good advice. For many people, proposal may lead to some people having to transfer the whole matter of pensions is entirely baffling. Those savings that they already have into a scheme that has people tend to go with the easiest or most obvious higher charges and, therefore, a less good outcome for option. them than the scheme that the savings are currently in The 20 to 30 years over which people—even those on or a scheme that they would have chosen to transfer relatively low incomes—have increasingly been expected their pension into. to source their own pension provision and to take up I must respond to the general comments made by the pension options, such as the many money purchase or hon. Member for Gloucester, who is no longer in his defined-contribution schemes that have been offered, place, about the previous Government wanting to introduce have resulted in many people having very poor pension change or reform. He referred specifically to pension outcomes. One reason for that has been the charges and credit and, inadvertently perhaps, he misquoted my costs, which greatly reduce the pension pot that people right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South end up with. West (Mr Darling)—he is my parliamentary neighbour; As the Minister has said, transparency is not enough. our constituencies touch at one point within Edinburgh— Transparency goes a long way, but action needs to be who said not only that the previous Government looked taken beyond that. I acknowledge that it is a step at the possibility of a system like universal credit, but forward that on Report, although not before, we have a that the overwhelming advice was that it was too difficult 809 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 810

[Sheila Gilmore] agree that we want as many “Gregg Ms” in Parliament debating these issues as possible. To refer back to something and would be extremely expensive to implement. The he said, however, I think he has been one of “Les cost-effectiveness of such a system, and its benefit to Misérables” today. He has not found a single thing to claimants, was therefore put in some doubt. praise—certainly not with a smile on his face or any It ill befits anyone to suggest that the current Government enthusiasm—while doing his job, as an Opposition have solved the problem of universal credit. As we are spokesman, which I acknowledge he has to do, of seeing at the moment, all the predictions made by those scrutinising. The fact that the Bill is a huge improvement who have previous experience suggest that such a system on what the previous Government, whom he served, is proving extremely difficult, extremely slow, and no introduced, has not come across. They introduced auto- doubt extremely expensive. Whether it will benefit people enrolment, which was welcome, but the Bill is a huge receiving benefits we have yet to see. One must therefore step in taking it forward. be cautious in suggesting that the previous Government Gregg McClymont rose— were wrong in not going ahead with such a scheme. We will see what transpires over the next few years although Greg Mulholland: I will of course allow the hon. experience to date has not been all that healthy. I urge Gentleman to intervene. Perhaps he will acknowledge the Minister to consider annuities in a great deal more that improvement with a smile on his face. detail, as they are crucial for people’s retirement income and well-being during those years of retirement. Gregg McClymont: The hon. Gentleman has referred to me as being among “Les Misérables”. Is he aware 3.30 pm that I am Scottish? Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I will Greg Mulholland: I had the great pleasure of living in keep my remarks brief. Other Members wish to speak to Scotland for three years—two years in Glasgow. When I amendments, so I will ensure I give them time to do so. I moved up there, I was more able to understand French will start with a few introductory comments because I than a broad Glaswegian accent, but I rectified that. He am aware that, with today’s short time scale, it is unlikely will be pleased that I know how to pronounce the name that I will be able to make them on Third Reading. I pay of his constituency in its entirety—[Interruption.] tribute to and praise the role played by my hon. Friend Gloaming—the word he utters from his seat on the the Minister. He has done an incredible job in taking Front Bench—is an excellent Scottish word. through this hugely important, historic and complex Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I Bill on an issue that we all agree is of utmost importance suggest we move on to new clause 1 at some point. to our constituents and society. We can agree across the House that there is no one more capable, knowledgeable Greg Mulholland: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. or expert in taking through this Bill, and as a Liberal May I remind the House what the improvements to Democrat I am proud that he has played that role and auto-enrolment will do, which has not come out in the that the Bill will receive its Third Reading today. debate? Let us look at the figures. Some 1.6 million Equally, I pay tribute to the expert and intelligent people have signed up for auto-enrolment. Of course, contributions made by Members from across the House the ability to opt out remains, but rather than the in Committee. This complicated matter requires particular expected one in three opting out, the figure is only scrutiny, which it has received, and contributions from 10%. Many millions of people are not currently saving right hon. and hon. Members have rightly reflected for their retirement, but auto-enrolment will lead to that. Having said that, there is a need to redress the between 6 million and 9 million people saving for the balance. Although scrutiny is important, so far this first time by 2018. That is crucial. section of today’s proceedings has missed the point that It is important to remember—this, too, has not been this is an incredibly positive piece of legislation that will mentioned in the debate—that, as well as employee make a huge difference to people who are looking contributions, there will be support from employers and forward to retirement, and give them certainty about the Government. People aged 22 or over who are earning the level of income they can expect. The Bill builds on more than £9,440 a year will be automatically put into things that the Government have already established, the pension scheme. Individuals who choose to save including restoring the earnings link to the basic state 4% of their income will benefit from an employer pension and introducing the triple lock guarantee. That contribution of 3% and tax relief of 1%. It is important guarantee has helped increase the state pension by to welcome and emphasise that—it should be welcomed £12.50 a week since 2010, and delivered the biggest and emphasised by all hon. Members. increase in the state pension in 2010. The key debate is on charging. The Minister referred As a whole, this historic and important Bill will to the OFT report that raised concerns about standards, deliver the single-tier pension to give a clearer, fairer particularly in legacy schemes. The Government have pension to all and, crucially, a better pension to women rightly amended the Bill to take that into account. I and the self-employed. In the context of the amendments, warmly welcome amendment 30 and his announcement it is equally important, as I sure the Minister would be of the consultation. I believe the consultation should be first to agree, to take forward the challenge of auto- welcomed and not criticised. enrolment and ensure that private and occupational I should gently make one point to my namesake, the pensions are built in alongside the historic and positive hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch changes to the state pension. East. He gave the impression that he was critical of the I say gently that, after the earlier mix up, I am sure Government’s approach on consultation, but in amendment that the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and (a), which he has tabled, proposed new subsection (3) to Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) and I would Government new clause 1 states: 811 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 812

“Before making regulations under subsection (2), the Secretary will be affected, as well as many other sectors. My hon. of State must undertake a public consultation”. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John It is odd that he is critical of the Government’s approach McDonnell) has tabled new clause 7 to address those while calling for the very same consultation in black affected in the railway industry, who are protected and white. persons as a result of a privatisation that happened The hon. Gentleman was slightly wrong, or he misplaced 20 years ago. Other industries affected include energy, his emphasis, in his suggestion that the Government are water and mining. It is believed that some 52,000 people consulting rather than taking action. He knows—his in this position will probably be affected by the Bill. proposal shows this—that consultation is a necessary Many of my constituents have been in touch with me precursor to legislation. It is important in getting legislation on the issue. They tell me that the Government have still right. Without daring to put words into the mouth of not responded to the consultation on whether to exempt the Minister, I think it is important to say that the protected persons from changes to their pension schemes intention is clear—that there should be a charge cap to reflect higher employer national insurance costs from and that one will be introduced. The point of the April 2016. I will focus not so much on the detail of new consultation is not whether to introduce one: it is to clause 7, which would help those in the railway industry, find out the best way to do so. We should be clear about or new clause 37, which would help those in other the subject of the consultation. sectors, but on the principle they both address. I have one question for the Minister, which he may be able to answer. The announcement on the consultation 3.45 pm is imminent, although it is not happening as part of the This is not a historic issue relating to 52,000 individuals. Bill, so will we see him back at the Dispatch Box soon to As parliamentarians, we need to ensure that we maintain make it? He is clearly the right and proper person to the promises made, but we need to address, too, make the announcement, given his involvement in the privatisations that are taking place now. For example, Bill. I hope that he will be back, perhaps even in the the privatisation of Royal Mail took place only this next 24 or 48 hours, to announce it, and I and others month; indeed, there is an active industrial dispute in look forward to welcoming that and the details that I that sector relating to pensions, as well as pay and am sure he will wish to lay out. conditions. The Government need to be absolutely clear Despite this being a complicated subject in terms of about this principle. As parliamentarians, we have been the figures, the construct of the Bill and the pension here time and again, trying to protect the interests of sector as a whole, we all know that in the end this is those affected by privatisations and to obtain assurances, about people’s future incomes and ensuring that they from Governments across the political spectrum, on have a reasonable standard of living in their retirement, individuals’ contractual rights at the time of privatisation. as well as more certainty in their retirement. The figures The Government’s proposals will tear up promises that the Minister provided about the current impact of made to individuals and we need to think carefully the 1.5% and 1% charges were startling in showing just about what that means. In the railways pensions scheme, how much money people lose over the course of saving we already have individuals—for example, Jarvis Facilities for their pensions. That is why a cap is right. workers—for whom the insolvency of privatised companies I say gently to the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, has meant that they are suffering detriment. Jarvis went Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East that in his 78-minute into administration in 2010 and my hon. Friend the speech—at least, I made it 78 minutes, not 86 minutes— Member for Hayes and Harlington has been actively [Interruption.] I am being generous: perhaps the hon. involved in making representations on behalf of individuals Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) thought affected. That is the type of scenario we are dealing that it felt like 86 minutes. In any case, the hon. Member with. A number of private railway companies—whether for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East showed in the railways themselves or London underground—have his knowledge of his brief, and I commend him for that, become insolvent and gone back to the public sector. It but it is slightly strange to hear his many recommendations is easy to see many scenarios in which work forces will for auto-enrolment when the previous Government would be placed in a situation where there is an insolvency or not even countenance those suggestions at the time of something similar, and their pension may suffer detriment. introduction. Nor did he acknowledge the problems We have promised individuals that protection will be with the 1% and 1.5% charges. given to them. Those assurances were backed up by This has been a long and challenging process. Hon. statutory provision when the railways were privatised 20 Members on both sides of the House have made years ago, and when the energy sector and other sectors contributions that have been listened to and addressed. were privatised. We promised—this Parliament promised I look forward to the consultation. All of us with an and Governments promised—that those individuals’ interest in this issue should watch it closely and take pension rights would be no worse under privatisation. part in it. We should also encourage others to take part. They trusted those Governments and the promises they I shall end by congratulating the Minister, his team and made. There was much negotiation at the time about his colleagues on what they have done to get this important the detail of the legislation. MPs representing their Bill to this stage. It will lead to more certainty and fairer constituents were concerned that the law being put retirement incomes for the people of this country. before them was not strong enough to give them the protection they were being promised. Katy Clark: In the short time available to me, I wish The reality is that Governments made promises to to focus on the issue of protected persons, which was individuals. The Minister should give an undertaking, raised in the debate by the hon. Member for Gloucester on behalf of this Government, to stick by them and not (Richard Graham), who also has many constituents renege on those promises, and to ensure that those who employed in the nuclear industry. The electricity sector rely on the protections offered are able to continue to 813 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 814 feel satisfied that, if things were to go wrong, the assets from the British Rail pension scheme was also provisions will be there and those individuals will not transferred to the relevant section, but nothing was suffer detriment. I therefore ask the Minister to look done in those debates and negotiations, and eventually seriously at new clause 7 and new clause 37, which we the orders, to protect their transferred rights in the will be considering later, to ensure that protections event of their new employer becoming insolvent. remain in place. The actively contributing members were also given the right to participate in the new railways pension John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): My scheme on a basis that entitled them to accrued rights hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran for future service and which was no less favourable than (Katy Clark) has addressed the spirit of new clause 7, the basis of the former British Rail pension scheme. which stands in my name. It may well be that we are not They have to contribute to the scheme to accrue their able to discuss amendment 37, but she has addressed rights, and so must their employer, in the normal way. the core principle behind the new clause. Active members are also protected if they move involuntarily between railway employers. In law, they Parliament has a moral responsibility that is separate must be permitted to transfer their accrued rights to from government. When Governments give promises to their new employer’s section of the railways pension people, Parliament has a role in ensuring that they are scheme and be permitted to accrue future pension rights adhered to. That is what new clause 7 is all about. As my on the same basis as before. hon. Friend said, on privatisation, the principle should apply across the piece. That also applies to involuntary transfers. As one franchise moves between companies, so do the pensions We have discussed the background to new clause 7 and the pension rights and responsibilities. A member before in a wider debate about what happened to the who moves employer of his or her own volition retains Jarvis workers when Network Rail withdrew its contracts the right to be a member of the pension scheme, but the and the company collapsed. As many involved in that right to accrue future service rights on the same basis is debate know, the Jarvis workers, many of whom were lost. So those protections were thought to be relatively not transferred to successor companies, suffered greatly: robust at the time; transferring from the old British Rail they lost their jobs and could not find alternative pension scheme into the new scheme, and then, as the employment, and some have become nomads, circling franchises moved and new employers took over the the country trying to pick up work to bring in at least staff, their rights would transfer as well. some income. In addition, they lost their pension protection, and that is what the new clause deals with. When a railways employer enters into administration, its undertaking—the franchise—is usually transferred As my hon. Friend mentioned, section 134 of, and to another employer and, again, what happens is that schedule 11 to, the Railways Act 1993 enabled the the employees working for that employer are generally Secretary of State to create a new pension scheme for protected. Even when a company becomes insolvent the railways industry, to transfer the assets and liabilities and employees are transferred to a new company, if of the old British Rail pension scheme to the new there are sufficient assets those are transferred and the scheme and, above all, to protect the rights of members employees are protected again. The problem we now of the scheme once they became members of the new face as a result of the Jarvis incident is what happens scheme. The debate was extensive. Few Members now when an employer becomes insolvent and there are were in the House then, but as Hansard shows, there insufficient assets. That is what happened with the were extremely heated, but detailed debates about the Jarvis workers, who were transferred to Babcock Rail or principle and detail of the legislation, particularly the Volker Rail. Because the Jarvis section of the railways protections of individual workers. pension scheme is not in a position to transfer the Three orders were introduced. First, the Railways accrued rights on a fully funded basis—because Jarvis Pension Scheme Order 1994 created the railways pension never had the assets—a pension transfer could not be scheme, set out its rules and designated it as the successor made at all. Instead, what the Jarvis workers now have industry-wide scheme replacing the British Rail pension to rely on is the pension protection fund, which does scheme. Secondly, the Railway Pensions (Transfer and not provide what they would have gained as members of Miscellaneous Provisions) Order 1994 transferred the the full pension scheme. assets and liabilities of the British Rail pension scheme This group of workers accepted the assurance of the to the new railways pension scheme. Thirdly, the Railway Government on privatisation that their pensions would Pensions (Protection and Designation of Schemes) Order be fully protected. They have entered employment with 1994 set out the protection to be afforded to members a new employer and have paid their contributions, and of the British Rail pension scheme who transferred they expect the same pension as every other worker involuntarily to the railways pension scheme. around them in the industry. They are now faced with a After months of debate in the House and negotiations pension that is significantly less. I think that that is between the Government and the sector unions, members grotesquely unfair. It certainly flies in the face of the of the British Rail pension scheme who were already promises that were given on the Floor of the House to pensioners or deferred pensioners were transferred to a railway workers when privatisation was being advocated special pensions section and had their rights guaranteed and when legislation was going through the House. by the Crown. Their rights have never been put at risk and are not at risk, but that is not true for members still Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman is obviously very employed in the industry who were contributing at the knowledgeable about the history of the matter. Can he point of privatisation. Their accrued rights were transferred point to a specific assurance that was given about what to the section of the railways pension scheme applicable would happen in the event of the insolvency of the to their new employer, and a matching share of the private employer? 815 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 816

John McDonnell: Let me deal with that. Incidents rights that he or she had accrued as an employee of a such as insolvency are often not predicted by Government. successor employer, post-privatisation, but only to the So what happens when a policy is advocated that involves extent that he or she had had no choice as to the section a very straightforward commitment given by Ministers? of the railways pension scheme in which they were Let me, if I may, read out a statement made by the then accrued. If a member moves voluntarily from one employer Secretary of State for Transport John MacGregor in to another, the rights accrued after that move are not May 1993 at the time of the debates on the privatisation protected. This relates to the involuntary movement of of British Rail in response to a specific discussion on people when franchises are shifted and new contracts the British Rail pension scheme and its future. The are issued. Secretary of State said: Obviously, we have to address the practical question “My objective remains to preserve the security of rights enjoyed of who would pay, given that the former employer by pensioners and members while adopting arrangements to suit the new structure of the privatised industry. The proposals I am would not be in a position to do so. Promises were made announcing today meet this objective. by the Government, and they should have been enshrined in the three orders to which I have referred. They were I have decided that there should be set up, under the powers granted in the Railways Bill, a joint industry pension scheme for made to convince people that privatisation could work, the railways. This will be broadly on the basis set out in the and to convince employees that there would be a smooth consultation paper ‘Railway Pensions After Privatisation’ issued privatisation process in which their pension rights would in January. The governance and administration of the joint be protected. Having made those promises, the Government industry scheme will continue to involve both the employers and should honour them. It is the role of Parliament to hold employees in the industry. We shall be discussing the detailed the Government to account and to ensure that they arrangements with interested parties…Existing employees’ rights keep their word to the electorate. This was a special will be protected by statutory orders made under the Railways commitment that was given to that group of workers Bill. The benefits offered to employees must be no less favourable than those in the existing scheme. There will be no penalties for during the privatisation of the rail industry. involuntary breaks in employment. The present schemes under which the employer matches additional voluntary contributions I do not necessarily think that the measure should be made by employees…will continue subject to the existing right paid for by the taxpayer. The Government might think of the employer to withdraw matching for new or increased it appropriate to require all the railway employers to contributions. meet the cost of providing the protection by creating a Employees should be reassured by the statutory protection of mini-pension protection fund scheme, alongside the these benefits…It is both natural and right that pensioners, national scheme. Such a scheme could be funded by a pension scheme members and trustees should express their concerns levy paid only by railway employers. They have made and seek reassurance about pension arrangements in the privatised the profits from privatisation, and they should share the railway. The consultation document gave them the opportunity liabilities that arise. The legislation passed at the time of to do so: these decisions address those concerns and provide privatisation gives the Secretary of State powers that that reassurance.”—[Official Report, 20 May 1993; Vol. 225, are wide enough to enable this to happen. c. 236W.] John MacGregor was an honourable man who believed The new clause stands in its own right. It is a relatively that he was giving every possible assurance that the minor amendment to the legislation, and I should like existing pensions arrangements would be protected. to hear a positive response from the Government. When Are we now saying that, just because there is no specific privatisation took place, there was immense opposition reference to insolvency in that statement, no such assurance to it, and immense fear among the work force about was given in relation to those rights? If we did that what would happen to their jobs, their conditions of outside this place, we would be accused of mis-selling a work and their rates of pay. Pensions are also a critical scheme. issue for workers. Some people have referred to them as deferred pay. That is true, but they also represent a deferred sense of security in retirement and old age, and 4pm Members should not underestimate the strength of The employees opposed rail privatisation tooth and feeling among people who wish to protect their pensions. nail, but they were reassured by the Government that When privatisation was debated, it was understandable their pensions would be protected and, although they that Ministers seeking a smooth passage for their legislation did not support the policy, they went away confident wanted to reassure the workers in the industry that their that at least their pensions would be protected. What pensions would be protected. That is why such categorical has happened now? I think that a lot of the assurances were given at the time. responsibility lies with Network Rail over how it treated Jarvis, but that is a debate for another time. It Perhaps people did not think there would ever be an has been demonstrated that the statutory protection insolvency in the railway industry so it may not have that workers in the railway industry thought would been spelt out in the detail of the assurances the Secretary guarantee their pensions has proved to be illusory in of State gave. What was certainly understood by the event of an employer’s insolvency. That is what the everyone in this House listening, and by every railway Jarvis case has demonstrated. worker out there, was that, no matter what happened under privatisation, at least people’s pensions would be New clause 7 would simply restore the protection in protected. the specific case of insolvency. It would add a new paragraph to schedule 11 of the 1993 Act, which would I believe that this House should ensure that the apply only to an “insolvency event” within the meaning Government honour their commitments. I know that of the Pensions Act 2004. It would protect only “relevant one Government cannot bind another and that we pension rights”—namely, the rights that the member cannot introduce retrospective legislation—or, at least, had accrued in the British Rail pension scheme and the it is frowned on—but there is a moral duty to the people 817 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 818 who worked within the industry. Some have suffered That is what we are doing, and he can be assured, as my badly enough as it is. As I said, they have been laid off hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West said, and, as a result of intervention by Network Rail, put in that consultation is a precursor to action. contracts with Jarvis—we have called for an inquiry The hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and into that. Some people lost employment for a long Kirkintilloch East said that pot follows member was period, had to scour the country to pick up work and not a good idea here because whereas there are not now their pensions are affected as well. many pension schemes in Australia this country has I urge the Government to look sympathetically on very large numbers of them. He massively understates, my new clause—not to look for some loophole or lack however, the extent of concentration and consolidation of clarity in previous debates, but to recognise that in the pensions markets. The Office of Fair Trading has people are suffering as a result of commitments and said that the four largest providers hold the majority of previous Government promises not being adhered to. I schemes, assets and members. The four largest providers do not think that is too much to ask. I also believe that on their own have 68% of the assets, 76% of the we are advocating a cost-free approach. Employers in schemes and 61% of the members. The hon. Gentleman the industry would have to rise to their responsibility to believes that the vast number of schemes means that protect the workers’ future pensions, and I think that pot follows member cannot possibly work because would provide a morale boost to people working within everybody is in a small pension scheme; actually, the the industry. As my hon. Friend the Member for North opposite is true. Most people are in big pension Ayrshire and Arran said, it would send out a message schemes, which is why pot follows member works perfectly that, whatever happens—whether it be Government well. Consolidation is already happening—I mentioned policy, privatisation, bringing services back in house or the fall of a third in the number of medium-sized whatever—we could at least protect people’s pensions, pension schemes—and, moreover, when we implement if nothing else. measures on scheme quality, which will include action on charges, that will trigger substantially more consolidation. So the hon. Gentleman is, in a sense, being backward- Steve Webb: I am grateful for the chance to respond looking in referring to the large number of tiny pension to the debate. I hope the House will forgive me if I focus schemes. my response to the shadow Minister on only the first hour of his speech, as I believe everything that followed Gregg McClymont: I thank the Minister for giving had already been covered. way to me again: he is being very generous with his time. Is he not conflating providers with schemes? Is The gist of the remarks by the hon. Member for he not really saying that there are big pension Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg providers, rather than schemes, in the United Kingdom? McClymont) was: when I was appointed in 2010, I Big pension providers may service 200,000 schemes, but should have looked at my in-tray, cleared it out and there will be many different schemes within their overall said, “It is essential we ensure value for money in provision . workplace pensions.” By implication, action was needed because the previous Government, after 13 years, had not put pension savers in a position in which they would Steve Webb: That was powerfully put, if I may say so. get value for money in workplace saving. Indeed, the However, the hon. Gentleman is trying to portray a hon. Gentleman suggested in his narrative that all the workplace pensions sector that is ludicrously fragmented evils of pensions happened in the preceding 18 years of and all over the place, and in which most people are in the Conservative Government. Again, by implication, tiny schemes. In fact, most people are in big schemes. Labour comes to power in 1997 ready to put right the The number of medium-sized schemes is falling, and failures of the previous Government; they have 13 years the quality standards that we are introducing will accelerate to have a go at it, yet the first job of a new Liberal an existing trend. Pot follows member will be even more Democrat Minister appointed in 2010 is to sort out the fitting as time goes by, because we are overseeing and mess in pensions. There is, I think, a bit of a logical flaw hastening a process of consolidation in the pensions in that argument. industry. I enjoyed the hon. Gentleman’s psychoanalysis of I will not say too much about baked beans, with me—it is cheaper than therapy, that is for sure. He which the hon. Gentleman seems to be even more said, “We do not want consultation; we want action”. obsessed than I am, but the point of the baked beans That was powerful, emotional and gut-wrenching analogy is that the baked beans market works. As the stuff, except when we look at his amendment (a) we hon. Gentleman said, in the pensions market the demand realise that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds side is weak, and leaving everything to market forces is North West (Greg Mulholland) pointed out, in the not the answer. midst of a clarion-call for action, it provides that, The model that the hon. Gentleman has embodied in before action, or his amendments and new clauses is a very confused one. He seems to be suggesting that small pension pots will “Before making regulations under subsection (2), the Secretary of go off to the new aggregator schemes, which are really State must undertake a public consultation”. good, so a silly little amount of money will automatically When the Government do it, then, public consultation go to a really good scheme, whereas in the case of large is a substitute for action, but when the Opposition call amounts, the quality standard will be more relaxed. I for it, it means dynamism and standing up for the understand that his party advocates a 1% charge cap, consumer. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman but he wants a 0.5% charge cap for the aggregator. That will be a Minister one day, but he will know that would bring about bizarre circumstances in which people Governments are required to consult before they legislate. with serious amounts of pensions money could pay 819 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 820

1% charges, but people with small amounts in a scheme an average transfer of £5,000, we estimate that per year that they never chose pay 0.5%. How is that coherent? I the amount going to aggregators would be between am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman, but he £7 billion and £10 billion. Over five years, therefore, cannot explain how it is coherent because it ain’t. between £35 billion to £50 billion will go to these We need to ensure that high quality standards apply schemes. How does that affect the market? What is his not just to small pension pots in an aggregator, but model? We have a small number of what will become across the board, so that when people’s pots follow vast aggregator schemes. How does that relate to the them from scheme to scheme, they move from a good- active schemes that people are members of? He is quality scheme to another good-quality scheme. The taking money out of active schemes and putting it in hon. Gentleman quoted the National Association of aggregators; what does that do to the cost structure for Pension Funds. The association is, of course, right. If the people who are left behind? Bizarrely, active members we were simply going to allow money to be transferred of a company pension will find that their costs go up if automatically from a good scheme to a bad scheme, we all the deferred members move out and take their would have a problem, but because we will regulate for money with them. The hon. Gentleman does not want quality, no bad pension schemes will be used for the to regulate the costs for the active members as hard as purpose of automatic enrolment. he does for the aggregators. I simply do not understand what his model is. The hon. Gentleman said that nothing was happening about annuities. In fact, the Financial Conduct Authority Gregg McClymont rose— is reviewing them. It has already surveyed the rates offered to existing customers and those offered to customers accessing rates through the open market option, and is Steve Webb: I will certainly give way to the hon. trying to establish whether profits in the internal annuities Gentleman, but will he just clarify this? He mentioned market are too high because too few people are exercising in his speech a 0.5% cap for the aggregator and said, that option. Action on annuities is not just about what “There won’t be many of these. We can control them. my Department does; the FCA is considering the issue We can guarantee quality. Quality equals 0.5%.” Then actively, and we are working with our colleagues in the he says—he has said this publicly before—“The Labour Treasury. party favours a 1% charge cap for schemes people are members of.” So why does he want to have half the New clause 11 requires savers people to consult an charging level for people’s small amounts of money in annuity broker. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East an aggregator than for people’s active pension funds? (Sheila Gilmore), who is no longer in the Chamber, said that that would mean that people were given advice, but Gregg McClymont: I cannot respond at length as this annuity brokers do not give regulated advice; people is an intervention, but the Minister continues not to must pay for that. The broker will no doubt charge a understand our proposal on aggregators. [Interruption.] fee, and those who want advice will either have to He says, “It’s funny, that is”, but he just does not get it consult someone else or pay again for the broker’s and I will discuss it with him further. We are very advice. pleased the Minister takes Labour’s proposals so seriously The hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and that he is spending so much time and effort responding Kirkintilloch East wants to require those in charge of to them, but the aggregators would not only deal with auto-enrolment schemes to send people to brokers who the stranded pots. Pension providers can become may charge, so those people may have to go elsewhere aggregators if they meet governance, quality and charge for advice. He says that that must happen in order for a standards, so it would not be deferred members from scheme to qualify as an auto-enrolment scheme. We small pots alone who would be in these schemes as there consider his to be a backward-looking and restrictive would be larger schemes than that. model. Let me give an example. What about pension schemes that annuitise internally—which, in other words, Steve Webb: I would love to say that clarified matters. provide the annuity themselves? They may provide a Let me put this challenge to the hon. Gentleman. He guaranteed annuity rate, but in the hon. Gentleman’s says we do not understand his proposals, but I have not world people will still have to go off to an annuity seen his proposals. He has not set out specifically his broker and shop around, rather than taking advantage alternative proposals, and I am spending time on this is of the product that is in the scheme already. That is an because no one is arguing about the Government example of where he is trying to be over-prescriptive. amendments; it is the Opposition amendments that we [Interruption.] He says it is all in my head; I am not are arguing about. quite sure what he is talking about. The point is that we I challenge the hon. Gentleman to set down in some are trying to provide forward-looking provision for measure of detail what exactly he is proposing and what decumulation. Annuities is one model, with deferring kind of pensions market he envisages, because one of taking a pension, for example, or draw-down, or enabling the confusing features of his vision—as it were—is that people to swap their annuities around, as my hon. it is something like the energy market. He seems to Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) envisage a small number of very large regulated providers said. We need to be examining all these things, but the who presumably get together with each other and maybe hon. Gentleman wants to hard-wire into primary legislation do not always have the consumer interest at heart. That a single model for a single product, which is not the is what the energy market that his party leader oversaw future of decumulation. has delivered for consumers. I do not want to see the same thing in the pensions market. 4.15 pm Another aspect of the lack of coherence in the hon. Gregg McClymont: The Minister says he wants to Gentleman’s model of aggregators is that if he envisages take great action through a cap on charges, but after 821 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 822

[Gregg McClymont] cost on the energy employers through the abolition of the national insurance rebate and if we exclude their three years all he can do is introduce a consultation employees because they are protected persons, that has whose findings he will publish at some stage in the the potential to feed its way into energy bills. Her party future. That is not a Government taking action, and he leader has a view on energy bills, as do we, but the is doing that from the position of having all the powers knock-on effect of a decision we take on energy bills of government at his disposal. I do not think we should has to be thought through. The same applies in the take any lessons from a Government who are acting so transport sector, to which the hon. Member for Hayes sluggishly in sorting out the problems in the private and Harlington referred. If railway and other employers pensions market. cannot pass on through the pension scheme the costs we are imposing on them through the ending of the Steve Webb: When the hon. Gentleman says we will rebate, that will find its way through into fare increases publish that at some point in the future and he knows and to consumers. So we have to think through a wide we are publishing tomorrow, we can understand why he range of consequences of these decisions. That is why feels vulnerable on this issue. I am simply suggesting this is taking a while, but I appreciate the need to get on that his reluctance to set out an alternative model shows with it. the paucity of alternatives being offered to us. The hon. Gentleman said that there was a special On a specific point, the hon. Gentleman suggested we case for the railway industry. His new clause 7 does not could deal with only small pots created after Royal provide any protection in respect of any of the other Assent. That is not correct. We have the power to privatised utilities; there is no suggestion that if any of specify a prescribed date, and that date would in the those employers went to the wall pension protection first instance be likely to be the point at which auto- should apply—it would just apply to the rail industry. If enrolment began. So in the first instance automatic he feels so strongly about the justice of this issue for rail enrolment pots from when this began, rather than when workers, why does his new clause not say that any we secured Royal Assent, would be within the scope of protected person should be protected if the sponsoring pot follows member. I just want to put him straight on employer goes bankrupt? I know his affiliation, and I that. have spoken to him in his role as leader of the group on rail workers, but if Parliament were to accept his new Gregg McClymont: Again, the Minister says he has a clause, we would have to deal with the question about power but does not tell us how he is going to use it; that why we did not do this for everybody else, too. is common throughout the Bill. Will he categorically state that all pots stranded since auto-enrolment will be included within the Bill? John McDonnell: I have a lot of time for the hon. Gentleman, but I find that beneath him. He knows that Steve Webb: I thought that was what I just said. Let I have been involved in this campaign for a number of me be clear: we want to get this thing going. The hon. years, since Jarvis went into administration as a result Gentleman raised the issue of the £10,000 pot size limit. of the network intervention. We faced a specific issue Clearly I would like to go further, and we look at a that could be dealt with very speedily; it does not have £20,000 pot size limit in our consultation document, to await further consultation with other industries. That but we have to get the thing going. May I tell hon. does not mean that I do not concern myself about other Members who were not here at the start of the debate industries and other workers, but this particular campaign that he said he had sat and watched a video of a speech is related to my constituents and to a specific industry of mine? I commend him for that, as watching videos of in which I have taken an interest over time. me speaking shows real devotion to the world of pensions. In my speech last week, I made it clear that we see this Steve Webb: I know that the hon. Gentleman has as the beginning of a process. The pot size limit could taken a particular interest over time in this industry. My go up and the scope of “pot follows member” could be point is that his argument about justice—his argument increased, but we envisage beginning with auto-enrolment that pension protection should mean not just the same pots. I am clear about that, and there is no ambiguity: terms and conditions, which was what it did mean, but we are beginning with auto-enrolment pots. protection against insolvency—should apply equally The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline across other industries, and should not just apply to the Lucas), who is not in her place, asked when further rail industry, if that is what he believes. When John action would be taken on fiduciary duties. For the MacGregor made the promises that the hon. Gentleman record, in case she should happen to read it later—or quoted, he was saying that the terms and conditions of watch a video—I can confirm that the Law Commission’s the pension scheme would be the same with the privatised final report on the issue will be published in June 2014. employer as they were with the state employer. Subsequently, Obviously, further debate will take place at that point. a pension protection fund was created. Jarvis paid I wish to respond to the related issues raised by the pension protection fund levies and that is why the hon. Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) employees are in the pension protection fund. The three and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark). The privatised railway firms paid— hon. Lady asked about the important issue of the position of protected persons, on which we have consulted John McDonnell: On a point of order, Mr Deputy and on which I hope we will shortly reach a conclusion. Speaker. There comes a time when accuracy is important We think that slightly more workers are involved than in this House. John MacGregor, as Secretary of State, she suggested, but certainly tens of thousands of workers gave assurances that when British Rail was privatised are affected. One challenge we face is that this is not just pensions would be protected. He said not that they a matter for our Department. For example, if we place a would have the same protections as private companies 823 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 824 but that pensions would be protected. There is a point hours asking how we could possibly not have acted on of accuracy, so that Ministers do not attempt to mislead all the issues they failed to address in 13 years, but we this House. are addressing them. We have taken effective action and tomorrow we will take a further step when, for the first Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I am sure time, we consider capping the charges on automatic that nobody would deliberately mislead this House—let enrolment pension schemes. This Parliament will be us clear that one up. That is not a point of order but it seen to implement vital pension reform in the state and has certainly been corrected for the record, which will private sectors and to be doing the job properly and I be read tomorrow. commend our amendments to the House. Steve Webb: Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Question put and agreed to. Speaker. That was not a correction, because what I said Clause read a Second time. was not incorrect. Amendment proposed to new clause 1: (a), at end add— Mr Deputy Speaker: I did not say that. I also said that the first point was not a point of order, and neither is ‘(2) In this section— the Minister’s. (a) “charges”; and (b) “transaction costs” Steve Webb: Let me reiterate: Jarvis and the other shall be defined in regulations by the Secretary of State. firms paid the pension protection fund levy. (3) Before making regulations under subsection (2), the Secretary of State must undertake a public consultation, which John McDonnell: That is irrelevant—absolutely irrelevant. must include the views of— Steve Webb: It is not irrelevant— (a) the Financial Conduct Authority; and (b) the Pensions Regulator. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I understand that tensions (4) With reference to paragraph (2)(a), any public consultation are running high, but we will have an orderly debate. must consider the different elements which comprise charges and not just the annual management charge. Steve Webb: Jarvis, as an employer, was paying an (5) Such charges, together with any transaction costs incurred insurance policy. It was paying into a fund so that if it by the funds in which qualifying schemes are invested, shall be became insolvent its employers would get the payout, declared on an annual basis to the Pensions Regulator, which and that is exactly what has happened. shall maintain a public register thereof. The pension protection fund was created nearly a (6) The Secretary of State shall by regulations set the standards decade ago and every year Jarvis paid in on behalf of by which pension schemes must declare charges and transaction their employees so that in the event of insolvency those costs for the purposes of the register and for declaration to their members and their members’ employers. employees, and those of the other two former nationalised rail industry firms who were spun off, would get protection. (7) The standards set out in regulations under subsection (6) That is exactly what has happened. In other words, to shall be reviewed every three years. come along in 2013 and say, “Oh no, we did not expect (8) The Secretary of State shall have power to make regulations this to happen. We should get special treatment and we ordering other disclosure arrangements on administration charges. should get 100% protection,” when other people who (9) Regulations under this section may not be made unless a work for private firms do not get that when they pay the draft has been laid before and approved by resolution of both Houses of Parliament.’.—(Gregg McClymont.) protection fund levy and get a payout—[Interruption.] Question put, That the amendment be made. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The House proceeded to a Division.

Steve Webb: Other people who work for private firms Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the get a payout according to how the pension protection Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye fund works. Lobby. The hon. Member for Edinburgh East, who is not in her place, talked about annuities. She seemed to think The House having divided: Ayes 232, Noes 294. that requiring people to go to an annuity broker was the Division No. 109] [4.28 pm answer to the problems and I think she missed the point. We want to see a much wider range of options for AYES people when they want to turn their pension pot into a Abbott, Ms Diane Benton, Mr Joe pension income. Rather than putting into primary legislation Abrahams, Debbie Berger, Luciana a single model for a single product, we must ensure that Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Betts, Mr Clive people have choices so that they can choose an annuity, Alexander, Heidi Blackman-Woods, Roberta consider draw-down products or consider deferring and Ali, Rushanara Blears, rh Hazel so that they can try to ensure that they get the best value Allen, Mr Graham Blomfield, Paul for money. I certainly accept that the annuity market is Anderson, Mr David Blunkett, rh Mr David not working as well as it should. Austin, Ian Brennan, Kevin Bailey, Mr Adrian Brown, rh Mr Gordon This debate has gone on for the best part of four Bain, Mr William Brown, Lyn hours and the recurrent theme has been that when the Balls, rh Ed Brown, rh Mr Nicholas coalition Government took power in 2010, there was a Banks, Gordon Bryant, Chris huge amount of unfinished business on automatic Barron, rh Mr Kevin Buck, Ms Karen enrolment. What happened with small pots, charge Beckett, rh Margaret Burnham, rh Andy caps, decumulation and governance had not been dealt Begg, Dame Anne Byrne, rh Mr Liam with. The Opposition have spent the past however many Benn, rh Hilary Campbell, Mr Alan 825 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 826

Campbell, Mr Gregory Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Jamie Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Steve Tami, Mark Champion, Sarah Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Rachel Thomas, Mr Gareth Chapman, Jenny Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Thornberry, Emily Clark, Katy Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Timms, rh Stephen Clarke, rh Mr Tom Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Trickett, Jon Clwyd, rh Ann Jackson, Glenda Ritchie, Ms Margaret Turner, Karl Coaker, Vernon James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, Angus Twigg, Stephen Coffey, Ann Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Vaz, rh Keith Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Vaz, Valerie Crausby, Mr David Johnson, Diana Roy, Lindsay Walley, Joan Creagh, Mary Jones, Graham Ruane, Chris Watson, Mr Tom Creasy, Stella Jones, Helen Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Watts, Mr Dave Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Sarwar, Anas Weir, Mr Mike Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Sawford, Andy Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Seabeck, Alison Whitehead, Dr Alan Cunningham, Sir Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim Williams, Hywel Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Williamson, Chris Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Wilson, Phil Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Shuker, Gavin Winnick, Mr David David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Simpson, David Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Wishart, Pete De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Wood, Mike Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Smith, rh Mr Andrew Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Dobbin, Jim Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Smith, Angela Wright, David Dobson, rh Frank Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Nick Wright, Mr Iain Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Owen Tellers for the Ayes: Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Long, Naomi Straw, rh Mr Jack Tom Blenkinsop and Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Love, Mr Andrew Stringer, Graham Seema Malhotra Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Caroline Doughty, Stephen Lucas, Ian Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona NOES Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Afriyie, Adam Burt, Lorely Dromey, Jack Mann, John Aldous, Peter Byles, Dan Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Amess, Mr David Cable, rh Vince Durkan, Mark McCabe, Steve Andrew, Stuart Cairns, Alun Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael Bacon, Mr Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Baker, Norman Carswell, Mr Douglas Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Baker, Steve Chishti, Rehman Elliott, Julie McCrea, Dr William Baldry, Sir Tony Chope, Mr Christopher Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Baldwin, Harriett Clappison, Mr James Engel, Natascha McDonald, Andy Barclay, Stephen Coffey, Dr Thérèse Esterson, Bill McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Bebb, Guto Collins, Damian Evans, Chris McDonnell, John Beith, rh Sir Alan Colvile, Oliver Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Bellingham, Mr Henry Crabb, Stephen Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Benyon, Richard Crockart, Mike Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Berry, Jake Davey, rh Mr Edward Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Bingham, Andrew Davies, Glyn Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Philip Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Birtwistle, Gordon Davis, rh Mr David Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Blackman, Bob de Bois, Nick Gilmore, Sheila Miller, Andrew Blackwood, Nicola Dinenage, Caroline Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Boles, Nick Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bone, Mr Peter Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Godsiff, Mr Roger Morris, Grahame M. Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorries, Nadine Greatrex, Tom (Easington) Brady, Mr Graham Doyle-Price, Jackie Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Brake, rh Tom Drax, Richard Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Brazier, Mr Julian Duddridge, James Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Bridgen, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Ian Brine, Steve Ellis, Michael Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Brokenshire, James Ellison, Jane Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Brooke, Annette Ellwood, Mr Tobias Harman, rh Ms Harriet O’Donnell, Fiona Browne, Mr Jeremy Elphicke, Charlie Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi Bruce, Fiona Evans, Graham Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Evans, Jonathan Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Mr Nigel Hillier, Meg Pound, Stephen Burley, Mr Aidan Evennett, Mr David Hilling, Julie Powell, Lucy Burns, rh Mr Simon Fabricant, Michael Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Burrowes, Mr David Fallon, rh Michael Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Burt, Alistair Farron, Tim 827 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 828

Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Robertson, rh Hugh Thurso, John Field, Mark Lamb, Norman Robertson, Mr Laurence Timpson, Mr Edward Foster, rh Mr Don Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rogerson, Dan Tomlinson, Justin Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Rudd, Amber Tredinnick, David Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Russell, Sir Bob Turner, Mr Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Rutley, David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Sanders, Mr Adrian Uppal, Paul Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Sandys, Laura Vaizey, Mr Edward Garnier, Sir Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Scott, Mr Lee Vara, Mr Shailesh Garnier, Mark Leigh, Sir Edward Selous, Andrew Vickers, Martin Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Sharma, Alok Walker, Mr Charles George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Shelbrooke, Alec Walker, Mr Robin Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Dr Julian Shepherd, Sir Richard Wallace, Mr Ben Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Simpson, Mr Keith Ward, Mr David Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lidington, rh Mr David Skidmore, Chris Watkinson, Dame Angela Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Smith, Miss Chloe Weatherley, Mike Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Smith, Henry Webb, Steve Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Smith, Julian Wharton, James Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Smith, Sir Robert Wheeler, Heather Graham, Richard Luff, Peter Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline White, Chris Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen Spencer, Mr Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Grayling, rh Chris Macleod, Mary Stephenson, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Greening, rh Justine Maude, rh Mr Francis Stevenson, John Williams, Mr Mark Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maynard, Paul Stewart, Iain Williams, Roger Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Stewart, Rory Williams, Stephen Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Streeter, Mr Gary Williamson, Gavin Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Stride, Mel Wilson, Mr Rob Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark Stuart, Mr Graham Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wright, Jeremy Hammond, Stephen Miller, rh Maria Sturdy, Julian Wright, Simon Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne Swales, Ian Yeo, Mr Tim Hancock, Mr Mike Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Young, rh Sir George Hands, Greg Moore, rh Michael Swire, rh Mr Hugo Zahawi, Nadhim Harper, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Harrington, Richard Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Tellers for the Noes: Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Teather, Sarah Jenny Willott and Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Thornton, Mike Gavin Barwell Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Hayes, rh Mr John Mulholland, Greg Question accordingly negatived. Heald, Oliver Mundell, rh David Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa New clause 1 added to the Bill. Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Hemming, John Neill, Robert 4.47 pm Henderson, Gordon Newmark, Mr Brooks Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day) Hendry, Charles Norman, Jesse The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions Herbert, rh Nick Nuttall, Mr David necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at Hinds, Damian O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen that time (Standing Order No. 83E). Hoban, Mr Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Hollobone, Mr Philip Opperman, Guy New Clause 11 Holloway, Mr Adam Paice, rh Sir James Hopkins, Kris Parish, Neil DECUMULATION Horwood, Martin Patel, Priti ‘(1) Any qualifying money purchase scheme must direct its Howell, John Paterson, rh Mr Owen savers to an independent annuity brokerage service or offer such Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark a brokerage service itself. Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penning, Mike (2) Pension schemes shall ensure that any brokerage service Hunter, Mark Penrose, John selected or provided meets best practice in terms of providing Huppert, Dr Julian Percy, Andrew members with— Hurd, Mr Nick Phillips, Stephen (a) an assisted path through the annuity process; Jackson, Mr Stewart Pickles, rh Mr Eric James, Margot Pincher, Christopher (b) ensuring access to most annuity providers; and Javid, Sajid Prisk, Mr Mark (c) minimising costs. Jenkin, Mr Bernard Raab, Mr Dominic (3) The standards meeting best practice on decumulation shall Johnson, Joseph Randall, rh Sir John be defined by the Pensions Regulator after public consultation. Jones, Andrew Reckless, Mark (4) The standards set out in subsection (3) shall be reviewed Jones, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John every three years and, if required, updated.’.—(Gregg Jones, Mr Marcus Rees-Mogg, Jacob McClymont.) Kawczynski, Daniel Reevell, Simon Brought up, and read the First time. Kelly, Chris Reid, Mr Alan Kirby, Simon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Knight, rh Sir Greg Robathan, rh Mr Andrew The House divided: Ayes 218, Noes 305. 829 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 830

Division No. 110] [4.47 pm McDonald, Andy Sarwar, Anas McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Sawford, Andy AYES McDonnell, John Seabeck, Alison McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sharma, Mr Virendra Abbott, Ms Diane Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Alison Sheerman, Mr Barry Abrahams, Debbie Engel, Natascha McGovern, Jim Sheridan, Jim Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Shuker, Gavin Alexander, Heidi Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Skinner, Mr Dennis Ali, Rushanara Farrelly, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Slaughter, Mr Andy Allen, Mr Graham Fitzpatrick, Jim Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, rh Mr Andrew Anderson, Mr David Flello, Robert Mearns, Ian Smith, Angela Austin, Ian Flint, rh Caroline Miller, Andrew Bailey, Mr Adrian Fovargue, Yvonne Smith, Nick Morden, Jessica Bain, Mr William Francis, Dr Hywel Smith, Owen Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Balls, rh Ed Gardiner, Barry Straw, rh Mr Jack Morris, Grahame M. Banks, Gordon Gilmore, Sheila Stringer, Graham (Easington) Barron, rh Mr Kevin Glass, Pat Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Mudie, Mr George Beckett, rh Margaret Glindon, Mrs Mary Tami, Mark Munn, Meg Begg, Dame Anne Godsiff, Mr Roger Thomas, Mr Gareth Murphy, rh Paul Benn, rh Hilary Greatrex, Tom Thornberry, Emily Murray, Ian Benton, Mr Joe Griffith, Nia Timms, rh Stephen Nandy, Lisa Berger, Luciana Gwynne, Andrew Nash, Pamela Trickett, Jon Betts, Mr Clive Hain, rh Mr Peter O’Donnell, Fiona Turner, Karl Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hamilton, Mr David Onwurah, Chi Twigg, Stephen Blears, rh Hazel Hamilton, Fabian Owen, Albert Umunna, Mr Chuka Blomfield, Paul Hanson, rh Mr David Pearce, Teresa Vaz, rh Keith Blunkett, rh Mr David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pound, Stephen Vaz, Valerie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Healey, rh John Powell, Lucy Walley, Joan Brennan, Kevin Hepburn, Mr Stephen Qureshi, Yasmin Watson, Mr Tom Brown, rh Mr Gordon Heyes, David Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Watts, Mr Dave Brown, Lyn Hillier, Meg Reed, Mr Jamie Whitehead, Dr Alan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Steve Williamson, Chris Bryant, Chris Hodge, rh Margaret Reeves, Rachel Buck, Ms Karen Hoey, Kate Wilson, Phil Reynolds, Emma Burnham, rh Andy Hood, Mr Jim Winnick, Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hopkins, Kelvin Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Riordan, Mrs Linda Campbell, Mr Alan Howarth, rh Mr George Wood, Mike Ritchie, Ms Margaret Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hunt, Tristram Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Robertson, John Champion, Sarah Irranca-Davies, Huw Wright, David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Chapman, Jenny Jackson, Glenda Wright, Mr Iain Rotheram, Steve Clark, Katy James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Lindsay Tellers for the Ayes: Clarke, rh Mr Tom Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Tom Blenkinsop and Clwyd, rh Ann Jarvis, Dan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Seema Malhotra Coaker, Vernon Johnson, rh Alan Coffey, Ann Johnson, Diana Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Graham NOES Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Helen Afriyie, Adam Brake, rh Tom Crausby, Mr David Jones, Mr Kevan Aldous, Peter Brazier, Mr Julian Creagh, Mary Jones, Susan Elan Amess, Mr David Bridgen, Andrew Creasy, Stella Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Andrew, Stuart Brine, Steve Cryer, John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Bacon, Mr Richard Brokenshire, James Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara Baker, Norman Brooke, Annette Cunningham, Mr Jim Kendall, Liz Baker, Steve Browne, Mr Jeremy Cunningham, Sir Tony Khan, rh Sadiq Baldry, Sir Tony Bruce, Fiona Curran, Margaret Lammy, rh Mr David Baldwin, Harriett Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Dakin, Nic Lavery, Ian Barclay, Stephen Buckland, Mr Robert Danczuk, Simon Lazarowicz, Mark Bebb, Guto Burley, Mr Aidan David, Wayne Leslie, Chris Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, rh Mr Simon Davidson, Mr Ian Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Bellingham, Mr Henry Burrowes, Mr David De Piero, Gloria Lewis, Mr Ivan Benyon, Richard Burt, Alistair Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, Lorely Dobbin, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Berry, Jake Byles, Dan Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Bingham, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian Doughty, Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Binley, Mr Brian Cairns, Alun Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Birtwistle, Gordon Campbell, Mr Gregory Doyle, Gemma Mann, John Blackman, Bob Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Dromey, Jack Marsden, Mr Gordon Blackwood, Nicola Carswell, Mr Douglas Dugher, Michael McCabe, Steve Blunt, Mr Crispin Chishti, Rehman Durkan, Mark McCann, Mr Michael Boles, Nick Chope, Mr Christopher Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry Bone, Mr Peter Clappison, Mr James Eagle, Maria McClymont, Gregg Bottomley, Sir Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Brady, Mr Graham Collins, Damian 831 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 832

Colvile, Oliver Heaton-Harris, Chris Munt, Tessa Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Murray, Sheryll Spencer, Mr Mark Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Stephenson, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Stevenson, John Davey, rh Mr Edward Herbert, rh Nick Newton, Sarah Stewart, Iain Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Stewart, Rory Davies, Philip Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Streeter, Mr Gary Davis, rh Mr David Hollingbery, George O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stride, Mel de Bois, Nick Hollobone, Mr Philip Offord, Dr Matthew Stuart, Mr Graham Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy Sturdy, Julian Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Horwood, Martin Paice, rh Sir James Swales, Ian Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Howell, John Parish, Neil Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hughes, rh Simon Patel, Priti Swire, rh Mr Hugo Dorries, Nadine Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paterson, rh Mr Owen Syms, Mr Robert Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunter, Mark Pawsey, Mark Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Penning, Mike Teather, Sarah Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Penrose, John Thornton, Mike Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Thurso, John Ellis, Michael James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Ellison, Jane Javid, Sajid Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tomlinson, Justin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pincher, Christopher Tredinnick, David Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Joseph Prisk, Mr Mark Truss, Elizabeth Evans, Graham Jones, Andrew Pugh, John Turner, Mr Andrew Evans, Jonathan Jones, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Tyrie, Mr Andrew Evans, Mr Nigel Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Sir John Uppal, Paul Evennett, Mr David Kawczynski, Daniel Reckless, Mark Vaizey, Mr Edward Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John Vara, Mr Shailesh Fallon, rh Michael Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Vickers, Martin Farron, Tim Knight, rh Sir Greg Reevell, Simon Walker, Mr Charles Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Walker, Mr Robin Field, Mark Lamb, Norman Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wallace, Mr Ben Foster, rh Mr Don Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Ward, Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Robertson, rh Hugh Watkinson, Dame Angela Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Rogerson, Dan Weatherley, Mike Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber Webb, Steve Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Wharton, James Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Russell, Sir Bob Wheeler, Heather Garnier, Sir Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David White, Chris Garnier, Mark Leigh, Sir Edward Sanders, Mr Adrian Whittingdale, Mr John Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura Wiggin, Bill George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Scott, Mr Lee Williams, Mr Mark Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Dr Julian Selous, Andrew Williams, Roger Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shannon, Jim Williams, Stephen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lidington, rh Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Williamson, Gavin Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sharma, Alok Wilson, Mr Rob Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Wollaston, Dr Sarah Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Shepherd, Sir Richard Wright, Jeremy Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Simmonds, Mark Wright, Simon Graham, Richard Luff, Peter Simpson, David Yeo, Mr Tim Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen Simpson, Mr Keith Young, rh Sir George Grayling, rh Chris Macleod, Mary Skidmore, Chris Zahawi, Nadhim Greening, rh Justine Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Miss Chloe Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Tellers for the Noes: Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian Jenny Willott and Gummer, Ben McCrea, Dr William Smith, Sir Robert Gavin Barwell Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Question accordingly negatived. Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen Hancock, Matthew Miller, rh Maria New Schedule 1 Hancock, Mr Mike Milton, Anne ‘WORK-BASED SCHEMES: POWER TO RESTRICT CHARGES Hands, Greg Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew OR IMPOSE REQUIREMENTS Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Harrington, Richard Morgan, Nicky Power to restrict charges Harris, Rebecca Morris, Anne Marie 1 (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make Hart, Simon Morris, James provision— Harvey, Sir Nick Mosley, Stephen (a) prohibiting administration charges which are of a Hayes, rh Mr John Mowat, David specified class or description, or which exceed specified Heald, Oliver Mulholland, Greg limits, from being imposed on a member of a relevant Heath, Mr David Mundell, rh David scheme; 833 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 834

(b) prohibiting a relevant scheme from containing provision (c) provide for the Regulator to issue a notice (a “penalty under which administration charges which are of a notice”) imposing a penalty on a person where the specified class or description, or which exceed specified Regulator is of the opinion that the person has failed limits, will or may be imposed on a member of the to comply with a compliance notice or third party scheme. compliance notice or has contravened a provision of “Specified” means specified in the regulations. regulations under paragraph 1 or 2; (2) The regulations— (d) provide for the making of a reference to the First-tier Tribunal or Upper Tribunal in respect of the issue of (a) may make provision for the manner of, and criteria for, a penalty notice or the amount of a penalty; determining whether an administration charge is of a specified class or description or exceeds specified (e) confer other functions on the Regulator. limits; (3) The regulations may make provision for determining the (b) may provide for the determination to be made in amount, or the maximum amount, of a penalty in respect of a accordance with guidance issued from time to time failure or contravention. by the Secretary of State. (4) But the amount of a penalty imposed under the regulations (3) The regulations may impose duties on the trustees or in respect of a failure or contravention must not exceed— managers of a relevant scheme or others. (a) £5,000, in the case of an individual, and (4) The regulations may provide that a scheme is not a qualifying scheme in relation to a jobholder for the purposes of Part 1 of the (b) £50,000, in any other case. Pensions Act 2008 if a provision of the regulations— Interpretation (a) is contravened, or 4 (1) Expressions used in this Schedule and in Schedule 16 (b) is contravened in a way specified in the regulations. have the same meaning in this Schedule as in that Schedule (see (5) In this paragraph— paragraph 17 of that Schedule). “administration charge”, in relation to a member of a (2) In this Schedule “relevant scheme” is to be construed in pension scheme, means any of the following to the accordance with paragraphs 1(5) and 2(5). extent that they may be used to meet the administrative Crown application expenses of the scheme, to pay commission or in any other way that does not result in the provision 5 (1) This Schedule applies to a pension scheme managed by or of pension benefits for or in respect of members— on behalf of the Crown as it applies to other pension schemes. (a) any payments made to the scheme by, or on (2) Accordingly, a reference in this Schedule to a person in the behalf or in respect of, the member, person’s capacity as a trustee or manager of a pension scheme (b) any income or capital gain arising from the include the Crown, or a person acting on behalf of the Crown, in investment of such payments, or that capacity. (c) the value of the member’s rights under the (3) This Schedule applies to persons employed by or under the scheme; Crown as it applies to persons employed by a private person. “relevant scheme” means a work-based pension scheme of a description specified in the regulations. Overriding provision Power to impose requirements relating to administration or 6 (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide that governance specified provisions override any provision of a relevant scheme to the extent that it conflicts with them. 2 (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations impose requirements relating to the administration or governance of a (2) A “specified provision” is a provision of regulations relevant scheme that must be satisfied in relation to the scheme. under this Schedule specified in regulations made under (2) The regulations— sub-paragraph (1). (a) may make provision for the manner of, and criteria for, Other provision relating to regulations under this Schedule determining whether a requirement is satisfied; 7 (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations amend or (b) may provide for the determination to be made in otherwise modify any enactment (whenever passed or made) in accordance with guidance issued from time to time connection with any provision made by regulations under the by the Secretary of State. preceding provisions of this Schedule. (3) The regulations may impose duties on the trustees or (2) In this paragraph “enactment” includes an enactment managers of a relevant scheme or others. contained in subordinate legislation within the meaning of the (4) The regulations may provide that a scheme is not a qualifying Interpretation Act 1978. scheme in relation to a jobholder for the purposes of Part 1 of the 8 Before making any regulations under this Schedule, the Secretary Pensions Act 2008 if a provision of the regulations— of State must consult such persons as the Secretary of State (a) is contravened, or considers appropriate. (b) is contravened in a way specified in the regulations. Amendments (5) In this paragraph “relevant scheme” means a work-based 9 (1) The Pension Schemes Act 1993 is amended as follows. pension scheme of a description specified in the regulations. (2) In section 94(2A) (right to cash equivalent)— Compliance (a) in paragraph (a), after sub-paragraph (viii) (inserted by 3 (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision Schedule 16 to this Act) insert— with a view to ensuring compliance with a provision of regulations under paragraph 1 or 2. (ix) regulations made under Schedule [Work-based schemes: power to restrict charges or impose requirements] (2) The regulations may in particular— to the Pensions Act 2013;”; (a) provide for the Regulator to issue a notice (a “compliance (b) in paragraph (b), after sub-paragraph (vi) (inserted by notice”) to a person with a view to ensuring the Schedule 16 to this Act) insert— person’s compliance with a provision of regulations under paragraph 1 or 2; (vii) regulations made under paragraph 6 of Schedule [Work-based schemes: power to restrict charges or (b) provide for the Regulator to issue a notice (a “third impose requirements] to the Pensions Act 2013.” party compliance notice”) to a person with a view to ensuring another person’s compliance with a provision (3) In section 101AI(8) (rights to cash transfer sum and of regulations under paragraph 1 or 2; contribution refund: further provisions)— 835 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 836

(a) in paragraph (a), after sub-paragraph (viii) (inserted by ‘In section 256 of the Pensions Act 2004 (no indemnification for Schedule 16 to this Act) insert— fines or civil penalties), in subsection (1)(b)— (ix) regulations made under Schedule [Work-based (a) for “or section” substitute “, section”; schemes: power to restrict charges or impose (b) after “2008” insert “or paragraph 10 of Schedule 16 to requirements] to the Pensions Act 2013;”; the Pensions Act 2013”.’.—(Steve Webb.) (b) in paragraph (b), after sub-paragraph (vi) (inserted by Schedule 16 to this Act) insert— (vii) regulations made under paragraph 6 of Schedule Schedule 18 [Work-based schemes: power to restrict charges or impose requirements] to the Pensions Act 2013.” PENSION PROTECTION FUND: INCREASED 10 In section 256 of the Pensions Act 2004 (no indemnification COMPENSATION CAP FOR LONG SERVICE for fines or civil penalties), in subsection (1)(b), after “or paragraph 10 of Schedule16 to the Pensions Act 2013” (inserted by Schedule16 Amendment made: 31, page 95, line 24, at end add— to this Act) insert “or paragraph 3 of Schedule [Work-based schemes: power to restrict charges or impose requirements] to ‘PART 3 that Act”.

11 (1) Section 16 of the Pensions Act 2008 (automatic enrolment: TRANSITIONAL PROVISION qualifying schemes) is amended as follows. Interpretation (2) In subsection (3), omit paragraphs (a), (aa) and (ab). 7 In this Part of this Schedule “the commencement date” means (3) After subsection (3) insert— the date on which the amendments made by Part 1 of this “(3A) See also paragraphs 1(4) and 2(4) of Schedule [Work-based Schedule come into force. schemes: power to restrict charges or impose requirements] to the 8 Other expressions used in this Part of this Schedule have the Pensions Act 2013, which confer power to make regulations same meaning as in Part 2 of the Pensions Act 2004 providing for a scheme not to be a qualifying scheme in relation to a jobholder in certain circumstances.” Recalculation of periodic compensation going forwards (4) Omit subsections (4) and (5). 9 (1) This paragraph applies in relation to a person if— 12 In consequence of the amendments made by paragraph 11, (a) the person is entitled to periodic compensation under section 10 of the Pensions Act 2011 (qualifying schemes: paragraph 3, 11 or 15 of Schedule 7 to the Pensions administration charges) is repealed.’.—(Steve Webb.) Act 2004, Brought up, and added to the Bill. (b) the compensation is restricted in accordance with paragraph 26 of that Schedule (compensation cap), and Clause 32 (c) the person first became entitled to the compensation before the commencement date. SHORT SERVICE BENEFIT FOR SCHEME MEMBER WITH (2) The protected pension rate for the person is to be recalculated MONEY PURCHASE BENEFITS as if the amendments made by Part 1 of this Schedule had always been in force and the recalculated protected pension rate has Amendments made: 5, page 16, line 39, leave out from effect for the person as from the commencement date. beginning to ‘were’in line 42 and insert ‘In subsection (1)(a), (3) For the purposes of that recalculation, paragraph 26A(7) after “service,” insert— of Schedule 7 to the Pensions Act 2004 (inserted by Part 1 of this “(aa) he has at least 30 days’ qualifying service and, if he’. Schedule) has effect as if— Amendment 6, page 17, line 1, leave out subsection (3). (a) the references to an order made by the Secretary of Amendment 7, page 17, leave out lines 6 and 7 and State were references to the relevant old order, and insert— (b) the reference to actuarial adjustment factors were a reference to the relevant old actuarial adjustment “(10) Subsections (7) to (9) apply, with the substitution for factors. references to 2 years of references to 30 days, for determining whether a person has at least 30 days’ qualifying service for the (4) In this paragraph— purposes of subsection (1).’. “the protected pension rate”— Amendment 8, page 17, line 8, leave out ‘(1)(c)’ and (d) for a person entitled to periodic compensation insert ‘(1)(aa)’. under paragraph 3 or 15 of Schedule 7 to the Pensions Act 2004, means the protected pension Amendment 9, page 17, line 12, leave out ‘2 years’’ rate for the purposes of sub-paragraph (3)(a) and insert ‘30 days’’. of that paragraph; Amendment 10, page 17, line 15, leave out from (e) for a person entitled to periodic compensation ‘(4)(b),’ to end of line 16 and insert ‘after “(a)” insert “, under paragraph 11 of that Schedule, means (aa)”.’. the protected notional pension for the purposes of sub-paragraph (3)(a) of that paragraph; Amendment 11, page 18, line 27, leave out Clause 35.— “the relevant old order” means the order in force under (Steve Webb.) paragraph 26(7) of Schedule 7 to the 2004 Act (as originally enacted) at the time when the person first became entitled to the periodic compensation; Schedule 16 “the relevant old actuarial adjustment factors” means the actuarial adjustment factors published by the AUTOMATIC TRANSFER OF PENSION BENEFITS ETC. Board under paragraph 26(7) of Schedule 7 to the Amendments made: 28, page 88, line 33, leave out 2004 Act (as originally enacted) at the time when from beginning to end of line 14 on page 89. the person first became entitled to the periodic compensation. Amendment 29, page 91, line 1, leave out from beginning (5) Nothing in this paragraph affects increases already accrued to end of line 10. under paragraph 28 of Schedule 7 to the Pensions Act 2004 in Amendment 30, page 93, line 8, at end add— relation to periods before the commencement date. 837 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 838

New cap does not generally affect old payments New Clause 3 10 (1) Nothing in this Schedule affects— (a) periodic compensation for a person for periods before STATE PENSION CREDIT: PHASING OUT ASSESSED INCOME the commencement date, or PERIODS (b) lump sum compensation for a person who became ‘(1) In section 6 of the State Pension Credit Act 2002 (duty to entitled to the compensation before the commencement specify assessed income period), in subsection (1), after date. “subsection (3) or (4)” insert “where the relevant decision takes (2) In this paragraph— effect before 6 April 2016”. “periodic compensation” means compensation within (2) At the end of the heading to that section insert “for paragraph 26(4)(a), (b) or (d) of Schedule 7 to the pre-6 April 2016 awards”. Pensions Act 2004; (3) Regulations under section 9(5) of the State Pension Credit “lump sum compensation” means compensation Act 2002 may in particular be made for the purpose of phasing within paragraph 26(4)(c) or (e) of that Schedule. out, on or after 6 April 2016, any remaining assessed income period that is 5 years or shorter than 5 years.’.—(Steve Webb.) Survivors’ compensation Brought up, and read the First time. 11 When working out the annual rate of a person’s periodic compensation under paragraph 4(3), 13(3) or 18(3) of Schedule 7 to the Pensions Act 2004, take into account any effect that Steve Webb: I beg to move, That the clause be read a paragraph 9 would have had on the dead person’s rate if it were Second time. not for the death. Cases involving early payment or postponement of compensation Mr Speaker: With this we will debate the following: 12 Nothing in this Schedule affects the amount of— Government new clause 4—Preserving indefinite status (a) an actuarial reduction under paragraph 25 of Schedule of certain existing assessed income periods. 7 to the Pensions Act 2004 in a case where a person Government amendment 13. became entitled to periodic compensation or lump sum compensation before the commencement date, or Steve Webb: Unlike the debate on the previous group, (b) an actuarial increase under paragraph 25A of that the debate on this short group need not detain us too Schedule in a case where the commencement of periodic long. It relates to a feature of the state pension credit compensation or the payment of lump sum compensation system known as the assessed income period. The basic was postponed before the commencement date (even if it continues to be postponed on or after that date). idea was to avoid the need for people on pension credit to keep reporting changes in their circumstance—the Recalculation of terminal illness lump sums given in the past year basis was that older pensioners in particular have less 13 (1) This paragraph applies in relation to a person who is frequent changes of circumstance. The basic idea of the alive on the commencement date if— assessed income period was a perfectly reasonable one (a) the person has become entitled to a terminal illness but, unfortunately, it has not worked in practice and has lump sum under paragraph 25E of Schedule 7 to the raised a lot of issues. Pensions Act 2004 at any time in the period of one year ending with the commencement date, and To give an example, if someone in retirement inherits (b) the amount of the terminal illness lump sum was substantial wealth from the generation above them, restricted in accordance with paragraph 26 of that they can continue to get pension credit for five years or Schedule (compensation cap). even indefinitely, despite having very substantial wealth. (2) The terminal illness lump sum for the person is to be If someone retires, has an assessed income period and recalculated under Schedule 7 to the Pensions Act 2004 as if the then starts to draw a new stream of pension income, amendments made by Part 1 of this Schedule had been in force at they can go on getting pension credit despite the fact the time that the person became entitled to it. that their living standard is well above the level of (3) For the purposes of that recalculation, paragraph 26A(7) pension credit. We have given this a good go, and it was of Schedule 7 to the Pensions Act 2004 (inserted by Part 1 of this a reasonable thing to try, but in practice it has created Schedule) has effect as if— anomalies, with payments to people who, if they were (a) the references to an order made by the Secretary of assessed on their current circumstances, would not be State were references to the relevant old order, and entitled to benefit. (b) the reference to actuarial adjustment factors were a reference to the relevant old actuarial adjustment 5pm factors. The Government have taken the view that assessed (4) In sub-paragraph (3)— income periods should not be part of the system in the “the relevant old order” means the order in force under future, but we accept the need for a transition period. paragraph 26(7) of Schedule 7 to the 2004 Act (as The amendments propose that people who already have originally enacted) at the time when the person open-ended AIPs, such as the oldest pensioners, will be became entitled to the terminal illness lump sum; able to continue with them. “the relevant old actuarial adjustment factors” means the actuarial adjustment factors published by the I hope I have given an intuitive flavour of the changes, Board under paragraph 26(7) of Schedule 7 to the but to be more precise, the purpose of new clause 3 is to 2004 Act (as originally enacted) at the time when provide for the abolition of the assessed income period the person became entitled to the terminal illness in pension credit cases from April 2016, while new lump sum. clause 4 will correct existing pension credit legislation Meaning of “the pension compensation provisions” in Part 2 of the to ensure that the provision relating to indefinite AIPs Pensions Act 2004 for people over the age of 80 works as intended. The 14 Section 162(2) of the Pensions Act 2004 is to be treated as effect of new clause 3 will be to limit the application of including a reference to this Part of this Schedule among “the the legislation on AIPs to decisions that take effect pension compensation provisions”.’.—(Steve Webb.) before 6 April 2016 so that from that date no new AIPs 839 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 840 will be set. It will also ensure that AIPs set before Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss 6 April 2016 will remain valid beyond that date, thereby the following: transitionally protecting the indefinite status of certain New clause 6—State pension entitlement for women existing AIPs. The amendments also provide for regulations born between 6 April 1951 and 5 April 1953 to be made for the purpose of phasing the termination, ‘(1) Women born between 6 April 1951 and 5 April 1953 have from 6 April 2016, of all AIPs of five years or shorter in the right to choose to receive their state pension and associated length that were set before that date. Amendment 13 benefits under the new state pension system, set out in Part 1, concerns the commencement of the new clause and from its introduction. ensures that the amendment will come into force on the (2) The Government must ensure information about the full day that Royal Assent is obtained. I commend new range of entitlements under the old state pension rules and the clause 3 to the House. new state pension is available to allow women in subsection (1) to Question put and agreed to. make a comparison of total weekly income. New clause 3 accordingly read a Second time, and (3) The responsibility for making a choice under subsection (1) added to the Bill. lies fully with the individual.’. New clause 8—Review in relation to women born on or after 6 April 1951 New Clause 4 ‘(1) The Secretary of State shall conduct a review to determine whether all women born on or after 6 April 1951 should be PRESERVING INDEFINITE STATUS OF CERTAIN EXISTING included within the scope of the new state pension arrangements ASSESSED INCOME PERIODS established by this Act. ‘(1) If this section comes into force before 6 April 2014— (2) The Secretary of State must prepare and publish a report (a) section 105(6) of the Pensions Act 2008 (which on the review within six months of Royal Assent of this Act and provides that section 9(6) of the State Pension Credit must lay a copy of the report before Parliament.’. Act 2002 ceases to have effect on 6 April 2014) is New clause 13—Pensionable age: differential effect in repealed, and England, Wales and Scotland (b) in section 9(6)(a) of the State Pension Credit Act 2002 ‘Part 2 of this Act shall not come into force until the Secretary (duration of assessed income period for certain of State has laid a report before both Houses of Parliament transitional cases to be treated as indefinite), after containing an assessment of the differential effect and impact of “brought to an end” insert “, on or after 6 April 2009 the pensionable age in England, Wales and Scotland due to but before 6 April 2014,”. varying levels of life expectancy and gross value added.’. (2) If this section comes into force on or after 6 April 2014— Amendment 1, page 10, line 1, leave out Clause 20. (a) section 105(6) of the Pensions Act 2008 (which provides that section 9(6) of the State Pension Credit Amendment 35, page 11, line 34, Clause 24, leave out Act 2002 ceases to have effect on 6 April 2014) is ‘An’ and insert repealed and is to be treated as never having had ‘With the consent of the trustees, an’. effect, and Government amendments 2 and 3. (b) in section 9(6)(a) of the State Pension Credit Act 2002 Amendment 37, page 11, line 40, Clause 24, at end (duration of assessed income period for certain transitional cases to be treated as indefinite) as insert— restored by this section, after “brought to an end” ‘(c) a scheme in respect of any of its terms which relate to insert “, on or after 6 April 2009 but before 6 April persons protected under the terms of— 2014,”.’.—(Steve Webb.) (i) the Electricity (Protected Persons) (England and Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added Wales) Pension Regulations 1990; to the Bill. (ii) the Electricity (Protected Persons) (Scotland) Pension Regulations 1990; (iii) the Electricity (Protected Persons) (Northern New Clause 5 Ireland) Pension Regulations 1992; (iv) the Railway Pensions (Protection and Designation REVIEW INTO STATE PENSION IN RELATION TO WOMEN of Schemes) Order 1984; WITHIN 15 YEARS OF STATE PENSION AGE (v) the London Transport Pensions Arrangements ‘(1) The Government shall conduct a review in relation to Order 2000; women with a limited national insurance contribution record, (vi) the Coal Industry (Protected Persons) Pensions who relied on a husband’s national insurance contributions, and Regulations 1994; or would under previous arrangements have accrued a benefit based (vii) the nuclear industry employees protected by on such spousal contributions. Schedule 8 of the Energy Act 2004.’. (2) The review shall determine the costs and benefits of Government amendment 4. permitting women within 15 years of state pension age as at Amendment 36, page 12, line 10 [Clause 24], at end 6 April 2016 to retain their accrued rights if this would provide a better outcome than under the state pension provided for by this insert— Act. ‘“trustees or managers” has the meaning given in section 178 of the Pension Schemes Act 1993 and (3) Such a review shall be conducted within six months of regulations made thereunder.’. Royal Assent of this Act and a copy of the report must be laid before Parliament. Government amendments 14 to 20. (4) The review shall consider whether similar provision should Amendment 34, page 79, line 5, Schedule 14, leave be made in relation to sections 9 and 10 of this Act.’.—(Sheila out paragraph 11. Gilmore.) Government amendments 21 to 24. Brought up, and read the First time. Sheila Gilmore: One of the issues that has come up in Sheila Gilmore: I beg to move, That the clause be read the course of all the debate about the single-tier pension a Second time. is the decision that the Government have taken to bring 841 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 842

[Sheila Gilmore] ascertain how many women are in this position and what the cost would be of allowing them to continue to to an abrupt end to the provisions that previously benefit from derived rights for a transition period—it existed for women in particular—I shall talk primarily would not be for ever. about women, although men could be in this position—to be able to derive a pension or years towards a pension Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the from the contributions of their spouse. That dates back hon. Lady have any idea how much money, on average, to a different world. When the state pension system was these ladies might be losing? set up in the post-war period, there was an assumption that the standard pattern for married people was that Sheila Gilmore: I do not know off the top of my one person, normally the man, would be the main head, which is why I am asking for a review. We might breadwinner, and the woman would spend considerable be talking about 40,000 women who clearly will not be periods out of the labour force, and perhaps not even getting a full pension, but certain of them will have work at all after marriage. Indeed, although they were made some contributions; it is not that they will have no about to go, there were still marriage bars on certain contributions. The Work and Pensions Select Committee types of employment, so time out of employment was looked at this and recommended transitional arrangements not just a question of choice; it was sometimes a question for those within 15 years of the state pension age when of necessity. the new arrangements came into force. It is not for ever, it would not go on and on, with a very long tail; but it Things have changed and, although it can still be a would provide for those who quite reasonably made necessity, for many women the amount of time out of plans on the basis of particular expectations. employment can be very short. The arrangement in the original proposals was that a woman could receive a I have heard two arguments from the Government. derived pension from her husband’s contributions— The first was a generalisation about how the world had currently approximately 60% of the full state pension—or changed. Yes, of course it has changed, and we are not receive benefit if she was widowed or divorced. For talking about most or all women doing this for ever. someone widowed after retirement who was receiving Just saying, “Well, the world’s changed”, is not a good only the 60% pension—sometimes referred to as the enough answer to the fact that some women will suffer married couples pension when both bits are put together—it detriment if transitional arrangements are not put in would be increased to a full single person’s pension, place. The second argument was that apparently—I am regardless of whether she had made contributions during not sure any figures have been offered up—an increasing her working life. For those who are divorced, there is number of these women were living abroad. It conjured currently provision in the system to inherit and carry up images of women much younger than their husbands over a spouse’s contribution record if it is better than and living abroad—I do not know whether the Minister one’s own. That can be beneficial to women, and some had Filipino brides in mind. Nevertheless, it cannot be men, in building up a pension record. beyond the ingenuity of the DWP to ensure that people do not take undue advantage. Like I said, these Other changes that have taken place include crediting arrangements would not last for ever. certain types of contribution that are not entirely financial. There are a variety of reasons why somebody might As well as the credits people receive during periods of not have contributed. They might have made a positive unemployment when they are claiming benefit, successive choice not to contribute or they might have been doing Governments have introduced credits for periods of voluntary or care work before credits were allowed or child care and for caring for other relatives, and that can without appreciating that they were allowed—we know make up some gaps. There are still some people—a that a lot of people are eligible for carer’s credits who decreasing number, without a doubt—who will end up have not claimed them. There are a variety of reasons. in a position where they do not build up sufficient Others will have been in very low-paid or short-hours contributions in their own right. If the right to obtain part-time work and earning below the level of contribution, these so-called derived benefits is taken away, there will and they might have concluded that it did not matter be a group of people, primarily women, who, post-2016 too much because of the derived right. when the new arrangements come in, will have less than they would have expected to get before that date. They We debated this matter in Committee and I hope that will be in a worse position than they would have been the Government will this time be prepared to accept my previously, and that will have all sorts of consequences. new clause. Then, when we have carried out the review, a decision could be made about whether to proceed People have reasonable expectations of the rules. Age with transitional arrangements. UK gave an example of someone who had specifically asked the Department for Work and Pensions for advice Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I hope on whether she should start making contributions relatively the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) late in her working life. She was told not to do so, will forgive me if I do not follow her line of debate, but because she would not be able to work to receive nearly we have less than 50 minutes left to deal with something as much as she would be getting in any event. That that is complicated, important and a matter of justice. advice was given in good faith and at the time she I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Prime accepted it in good faith, but it is now too late for her to Minister for saying in the Commonwealth that the make up the difference. Commonwealth is about fairness and justice, and I am The Government estimate that there are 40,000 women going to argue for a significant review of what we do in this position. I am not sure whether there is certainty with overseas pensioners. I hope the House will forgive about that figure, because I do not know whether a full me for reading out a paragraph from Lord Hoffmann in survey has been carried out. However, 40,000 is not a the Carson case concerning regulation 5 of the Social huge number. New clause 5 asks for a full review to Security Benefit (Persons Abroad) Regulations 1975: 843 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 844

“The general rule, subject to limited exceptions, has always of the EU, those countries with whom we would not been that social security benefits are payable only to inhabitants have necessarily claimed a very close connection over of the United Kingdom. A person ‘absent from Great Britain’ is generations will come in. Without wanting to stir up disqualified: section 113(1) of the Social Security Contributions some of the popular newspapers, the new members of and Benefits Act 1992. But there is a power to make exceptions by regulation. Regulation 4 of the Social Security Benefit (Persons the EU will not be excluded from getting increases in Abroad) Regulations 1975 (SI 1975/563) (deemed to have been pensions, whether their people come here and work and made under the 1992 Act) makes such an exception for retirement earn entitlement or whether people who are resident in pensions. But regulation 5 makes an exception to the exception. or nationals of our country go and live, for example, in In the absence of reciprocal treaty arrangements, persons ordinarily Bulgaria or Romania. They will get the increases. Those resident abroad continue to be disqualified from receiving the who may have retired to South Africa shortly after the annual increases.” 1947 Pensions Act do not. The House might expect that pensioners abroad who The reason is that, in 1947, we were not expecting to do not get the increases are the exception; were the get inflation. If we did not have inflation, we would not House to think that, it would be wrong. Some 650,000 have the problem. If the Government say that they will overseas pensioners get the increase, and they include not provide exceptions to clause 20 and that no pensioner pensioners in countries such as the United States and overseas will get an increase, at least we would have Jamaica. More than 500,000—it could be 530,000 or consistency. But that is not what the Minister is proposing. 570,000—do not. They are predominantly in Australia, It might be helpful if he could confirm that either now, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, India and Pakistan, or if and when he comes to speak. with Yemen and Japan being two others in the top ten. No one can claim that there is rhyme or reason in that. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does my hon. Friend know whether the requirement to uprate in 5.15 pm the European Union countries is a European requirement Before I was elected to this House, the then MP that the Government can do nothing about or a Julian Ridsdale had a debate in 1972 answered by the Government choice? Minister, Paul Dean, who said that these matters were governed by reciprocal treaties and that the Government Sir Peter Bottomley: The Government chose and were keen on having such treaties. If the Prime Minister Parliament endorsed that we would have free movement today were to invite various Government Departments of people and of benefits in this sense, but the Secretary to contribute to a whole of Government review—which of State will no doubt be able to answer my right hon. is what I would ask for—he would find that the Foreign Friend with greater certainty. The essential point is that Office now says openly that it does not want reciprocal as a country joins the EU—or even EFTA—the entitlement agreements, in part because some of the old dominions to increases in pensions comes with it. and Commonwealth countries provide increases to their When preparing my thoughts on this matter, I might pensioners in Britain without us agreeing to do the have anticipated that the Prime Minister would say that same thing there. That does not strike me as a good he would give consideration to calls for a wider review argument not to have reciprocal agreements; it strikes of the issue. I might also have expected him to conclude me as a good argument for having them. Were he to ask that he was not minded to pursue such a review at this for this review, the Prime Minister would probably hear time. That is the gentlest form of saying no that I have from the DWP, “Is this the year when it is a priority to come across. give increases to those who are not resident in this country?” I suspect that, as and when we extend voting rights to British nationals living overseas, either for a period of The reason this is relevant to today’s debate is that 15 years or for even longer, as many other countries do, the Secretary of State, in clause 20, purports to exclude our Members of Parliament who represent those overseas overseas pensioners from getting increases under the resident voters will start putting the pressure on, and new scheme except—although it does not quite say that change will come. The Prime Minister might be so—where regulations can be made that would allow anticipating that. He might see the sense and justice of them to do it; the exception to the exception. I will spare such a change, but, given his position, he has to say no the House analysis of the provision in clause 18, which to a lot of popular causes. Perhaps the justice element is too complicated even for me to be able to put across for which is so rightly praised in the Commonwealth in a way that anyone else would understand. In clause 20, has not quite come to his mind yet. the Government are proposing deliberately to continue the discrimination against some of our overseas pensioners. In fact, I received a letter from the Prime Minister There is no rhyme or reason. Being a member of the about half an hour ago confirming what I had anticipated. Commonwealth does not bring someone in or put them He has said that out, although it is what I call the old dominions who are “the case for not departing from the position of successive affected. Governments is clear.” The DWP might ask why we should do it now. The I have already pointed out how the position has changed argument that Julian Ridsdale was putting forward in in respect of the reciprocal arrangements. His letter 1972 was about a far smaller number of people. If my goes on: right hon. Friend the Secretary of State were to say that “To do so would cost hundreds of millions of pounds at a time 2% of our pensioners are abroad, that is a dramatically when the pressure on a welfare system is considerable and when higher proportion than in 1972, and it will grow. People we are asking many people who live in the UK to make sacrifices.” who will earn their rights to pensions in this country are That could be an argument for cutting off increases for a far more mobile population, both those coming here all overseas pensioners, but that is not going to happen. and those going out. We know that, with the expansion The anomaly will continue. It has carried on from 845 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 846

[Sir Peter Bottomley] I have mentioned the Oxford Economics report. The Department for Work and Pensions might say that that 1972 to 2013. If I am still here in 20 years’ time, will was just a small survey, and that the benefits would take Ministers still be trotting out the same arguments that years to accrue. Well, the sooner we start, the better. they used in 1972? I jolly well hope not. The argument for doing it is not that it will pay this I pay tribute to the leaders of the International country, but that it is right. Consortium of British Pensioners in Canada and I could go through the other arguments used by Australia. They have had work done by Oxford Economics Julian Ridsdale, but there is restricted time for the to make the case for the health care savings. We all debate, and it would be interesting to hear what the know that the majority of costs to the national health Labour Front-Bench team has to say. I know, too, that service are incurred by people in the last years and others wish to speak on this issue and to other amendments weeks of their lives. Which of the people living overseas in the group. Let me declare the best judgment at the are the most likely to return to this country for their end of this debate. We will say no to clause 20, but we end-of-life health care? I suggest that it is those living will not force a walk-through Division. That is a way of in the United States, whose insurance might have run illustrating what we feel, without unduly taking up the out and who cannot meet the costs, and people in House’s time, when Third Reading is also ahead of us. I Europe who might want to return to this country to be hope the House will understand that. treated in a health service they know and in a language they are used to. I doubt that many people would come Caroline Lucas: I am pleased to follow the hon. back from New Zealand, Australia, South Africa or Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), who Canada. has spoken passionately about the importance of fairness The health care question was what prompted us to and justice. I believe that those very same principles call for the whole of Government review. I pay tribute underlie the issue I want to raise this afternoon. I want to my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet to speak to my new clause 6, while confirming my (Sir Roger Gale), who came with me last week when the support for new clause 8. Those new clauses both relate Prime Minister very kindly gave us the opportunity to to the group of women who will not qualify for the put some of these points to him. single-tier pension, whereas men with the same date of birth will. Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): My hon. Friend One of my constituents, Catherine Kirby, has been a has already paid tribute to the leaders of the campaign passionate and tireless champion for women in her in Canada and Australia. Jim Tilley has told us of the position. Understandably, she feels that she and others case of an English lady in Australia who is living on in her situation are faced with a dual disadvantage of £6 a week. The rest of the money that she has to live on being subject to an increase in state pension age under is provided by the Australian Government, because our the 1995 Act, while being denied eligibility for the Government cannot give it to her. Does that make my single-tier pension. Not all, but some of these women hon. Friend feel proud? will be left with a lower weekly state pension compared with men of the same age. No wonder my constituent, like many others, believes this creates unnecessary and Sir Peter Bottomley: I find that shaming. unjustifiable inequality and discrimination. One of the reasons to be active in public service is to The Minister has said in the past that women in the identify injustice and to work against it. It might take position of my constituent should defer, but for those months, years or decades, but this is a fight for which I on low incomes who are unable to work and do not have would like to see more support from the Opposition a convenient pot of money, that is not an option. He and from those on my own side. My hon. Friend has has explained in the past that because the new system mentioned Jim Tilley. I want to mention John Markham, excludes additional benefits such as for bereavement, it the director of public affairs for the International is not possible for the Government to tell women what Consortium of British Pensioners, who is based in would be best for them. For some women, however, that Toronto, in Canada. He has pointed out: is simply not relevant to their situation. They already “Approximately 10% of all pensioners live abroad, roughly 1 know that they would be better off—by £15 a week, in million people. Of that million, 50% receive annual increases to Catherine’s case, which is significant. their state pension, and the other 50% do not, solely based on country of residence.” The Minister has said that, over a lifetime, most of That arbitrary, historical decision is unjustifiable. these women would get more than the average man with the same date of birth, but theoretical lifetime averages I am not going to quote back to the Minister what he are simply irrelevant to the difficult financial situation said about this before he became a Minister. Some faced by my constituents and others in the real world. It people have to go through that embarrassment, but I do is their weekly pension income that matters, and I not want to subject him to it. I will say, however, as we believe that that is what should occupy our attention as approach Remembrance Sunday and Armistice day, their representatives. that the countries in which we have shared war memorials I will support Labour’s new clause 8, which calls for a are those most likely to be affected. They are the countries review of whether all women born on or after 6 April whose people served in the former British empire and 1951 should be included within the scope of the new Commonwealth armies, and those people are the ones pension arrangements. That is not my preferred option, who are not getting the increase. however. Not all will definitely lose out, and I do not John Markham goes on to say: think we necessarily need a review to find a solution “The recent select Committee on the new single tier Pension that works for the relatively small but important number Bill declared it to be an anomaly that should be fixed.” of women who may lose out. 847 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 848

My new clause 6 simply gives these women the right Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). I think that there to choose to receive their state pension and associated are injustices in the Bill that need to be addressed, and benefits under the new state pension system set out in my amendment 35 seeks to do that as well. part 1 from its introduction in April 2016, if they judge The amendment returns us to the issue of the it to be in their best interest to do so. It would not commitments that were given to people on privatisation. require the Government to tell them what to do, merely The Minister seemed to use a “divide and rule” tactic to ensure that information about the full range of when he asked why I was taking the issue up purely on entitlements under the old state pension rules and the behalf of railway workers, as opposed to workers overall. new state pension is available to allow women to make a There is a railway estate in my constituency, and I have comparison of total weekly income. The responsibility taken an interest in the industry for nearly 40 years. I for making a choice would rest fully with the individual. know what a sense of grievance exists among railway I believe this group of women deserve a much better workers. The promises that they were given on privatisation deal, and if that means upgrading to the single tier, that are now being torn up by the Government. I do not like should be permitted. If the Government do not do that, that “divide and rule” tactic—I want the same protection it will be an example of blatant discrimination. It would for all workers—but we can deal with the issue of not be difficult to remedy the situation and it would railway workers tonight if the Government are so willing. make a huge difference to the women involved. This This is what John McGregor, the then Secretary of group of women certainly deserve better. They are the State, promised in 1993. He said: generation who campaigned for equality for women. “Existing employee rights will be protected by statutory orders They began their working lives being discriminated made under the Railways Bill.” against; the Government can and should give them the He described those rights as “indefeasible”. He went on right to be included in a new single-tier pension to to say: ensure that they do not end their lives feeling discriminated against, as well. “There will in addition be specific safeguards, in franchise contracts, to cover the transfer of pension funds when a franchise changes hands…Orders for setting up new schemes, transferring Sir Roger Gale: Jim Tilley’s old friend, the British funds and protection of existing employees will be subject to the widow living in Australia on a frozen pension of less affirmative resolution procedure in both Houses. than £7 a week, is not a statistic. She is the difference He gave that assurance to members of all parties in the between what is right and what is wrong. If this country House. He continued: cannot do what is right, I have to say that I feel a great sense of shame. The denial of the money to people who “Orders relating to schemes and funds will be the subject of statutory consultation with the trustees.”—[Official Report,20May have in many cases served their country and fought for 1993; Vol. 255, c. 235-6W.] it—some of their friends and families have died for this country—and who have worked here and paid their That commitment was given, in the House, to all taxes, is indefensible. Their case is morally right. Members of Parliament, to all members of the pension fund and to all workers in the industry, but clause 24 will tear it up. The clause will allow employers who 5.30 pm sponsor the railway pension scheme and the Transport It cannot be right for a British expat living on one for London pension fund to amend the rules to increase side of the Niagara Falls to have a frozen pension while, member contributions, reduce member benefits or both, just across the water on the other side of the falls, in the and those who will be affected are the people whom we United States, another pensioner is receiving an increase have described as protected persons. Employers will be every year. It cannot be right that this country is prepared able to do that without the consent of trustees or to pay benefits to all and sundry who come to the scheme members, and without taking any cognisance of United Kingdom from wherever—from within or without the views of the House. That is unacceptable. the European Union—but continues to deny people A promise was given by Conservative Ministers to who served this country the pension to which I believe those workers and members of the pension fund, and to they have a right. No one is seeking back payment, future members of the fund, and that promise was because that would be financially unrealistic, but I accepted throughout the House. It was understood that believe that the time has come when we must right this changes in circumstances might require changes to be wrong. made in pension schemes, but the promise of that added The Prime Minister has defended the overseas aid protection reassured people. John McGregor was right budget, and I support him entirely in that. If this to say that such additional protection was needed. He country, which is still one of the wealthiest in the world, said that trustees would be consulted, that the House cannot afford to pay some of the poorest people in the would then take a view and, through an affirmative world the overseas aid that we are now paying, we ought resolution, would be able to reach a decision, and that to be ashamed of ourselves. However, if we cannot the trustees’ views would be laid before the House. afford also to look after our own, we ought to have a However, the clause enables employers to tear up schemes, deeper sense of shame. increase contributions, and reduce benefits. I shall not press for a Division on the amendment. It is also significant that there are 106 different employers However, I hope very much that the message will go out in this sector now. If one changes the scheme, what from here to another place, and that their lordships will happens when franchises are taken over? What happens deal with this issue, because dealt with it must be. when employees seek to change their employment from one company to another? We are introducing immense John McDonnell: I wholeheartedly support the complexity into the overall industry, which I think will amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Worthing undermine the pensions protections that this House West (Sir Peter Bottomley) and the hon. Member for gave assurances on in 1993. This is a matter of morality 849 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 850

[John McDonnell] before the equalisation of the pension age, whereas men of precisely the same age will get it. Let me put it in and honour. To introduce this measure flies in the face simple terms: if there were twins, one male and one of every undertaking made to these workers. My female, in that age cohort, the male twin would get the amendment would at least ensure that the trustees are new state pension in 2016 but the female twin would involved in any decisions about the future of pensions not, having retired a little earlier. Such issues do emerge in their sector. To be frank, I do not think it is much to when we are involved in pension reform. The Minister ask for this House to ensure, and enforce, that Governments and I have gone back and forth on the matter on a abide by their promises. number of occasions, and I will not anticipate his arguments because we have gone through them some Gregg McClymont: I want to speak in particular to time before. However, we have to look at the issue in the our new clause 8 and amendment 37. We are now context of a view that has grown up among many discussing the provisions in this Bill that relate specifically women that this Government’s attitude to their pension to state pensions rather than private pensions, and it provision is not as generous as they believe it should be. might be of some significance that the issue of protected When considering the 2011 legislation, we had to persons and protected pension schemes is emerging in deal with the issue of a significant number of women this context. having very little time to prepare for retirement and We have listened to the very powerful case made by short notice. They would have had to work for longer my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington but some of them would have had only five years to (John McDonnell), and one cannot but feel that there is prepare for that. They were five years from when they a specific set of circumstances around the privatisation thought they would be retiring and then found out that of nationalised industries. My hon. Friend has eloquently they might have to work for seven more years. I am focused on the railways, but amendment 37 deals with pleased that the Minister made a concession on that, the issue of former nationalised industries in the round, although he did not go as far as we wanted. That group and there are also energy schemes and some coal schemes. of women—a slightly different group from those we are We are in a curious situation. The Minister is giving dealing with here—who were also approaching retirement, himself the power to keep the promise made to the felt that they were being unfairly treated. Not only did members of those schemes, but he has not yet said they feel, rightly, that they were being unfairly treated, whether he will use that power to honour that promise. but we have also had to deal with the Minister’s approach This is a Pensions Bill and there are 50,000 or so to auto-enrolment, which is excluding more than half a remaining members of these pension schemes, so it is million women—and rising—from the benefits of auto- curious that he has not yet said what he intends to do. enrolment, because of the raising of the threshold for Will he do so in his reply? auto-enrolment in line with the personal allowance. A general sense has developed that this Government do Katy Clark: Does my hon. Friend agree that the not quite get it with women and pensions. difference is that these privatisations were hugely contentious and there was huge opposition to them, and the pension Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman’s new clause 8 calls promises were made by politicians to try to ensure that for a review. Obviously, having a review is not the same these things happened? That puts those situations in a as having an opinion, so what does he actually think different category from many of the others we are should be done? talking about. Gregg McClymont: I certainly think the Minister Gregg McClymont: I thank my hon. Friend for that should undertake a review. intervention. I agree that there is a specific set of The perception I am talking about has developed, so circumstances around these pension schemes. I am certainly let me quote something that the Minister might be not saying that accruals and the terms and conditions aware of. I cited it a couple of years ago, but he has of a pension can never be changed in any circumstances, probably forgotten. but there is a specific set of politically charged circumstances to do with the privatisation of these industries. Specific Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Before my hon. undertakings were given to the members of those Friend moves on, I wonder whether he would be interested schemes to encourage them to accept, if not actively to hear the Minister’s response to my constituent Maureen support, the privatisation of the industries in which Davenport. The Minister said that the maximum state they worked. I urge the Minister to tell us this evening, pension under the new system will be “significantly if he can do so, whether he intends to use the power he lower” than under the current system. He also said: is giving himself in the Bill to honour the promises “In some ways the new system will be less generous for those made to the members of those schemes. If he will not who retire after April 2016”. do so, we will force a Division to test the opinion of this That is somewhat different from the fanfare and the House on amendment 37, which would mean that the Government saying that these new pensions would be promises made to the 50,000 or so men and women in wonderful for everybody. those protected schemes were met. I am conscious of the time and allowing the Minister Gregg McClymont: I thank my hon. Friend for that appropriate time to respond to the broader debate. I powerful intervention. There has been an issue of this noted closely what the hon. Member for Brighton, Government, certainly in the early stages, overselling Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) said about her new clause 6 some of the things they are doing. and her belief that the 700,000 or so women in the The Government would be doing themselves a favour group born between 1951 and 1953 will not get the new by undertaking this review, given the sense among significant state pension, because they are the last pension cohort groups of women that the Government do not care 851 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 852 enough about their pension provision. In 2005, in the Dame Anne Begg: I think that may have been the days when the Conservative party was still trying to say problem with this Government and with the previous that it had changed, the Prime Minister said: Government. Any Government who come in do not “If you put eight Conservative men round a table and ask them want to do it. The Select Committee’s straightforward to discuss what should be done about pensions, you’d get some recommendation was that the new system should not good answers…but what you are less likely to get is a powerful contain the same anomaly as the old system. I still insight into the massive unfairness relating to women’s pensions.” stand by that. I hope the Government are listening and It is in that context—the sense that the Government will change their mind and I suspect that the House of have so far had their eye a little off the ball in respect of Lords will have quite a lot to say on this subject. treating women fairly on pensions—that I intend to test the House’s opinion on our call for a review by the Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Let me say first of all Government of these provisions. that I support amendment 1, which I was very glad to 5.45 pm put my name to. Dame Anne Begg: These amendments can all be My new clause 13 delays introducing part 2 until the categorised as trying to do something for those who Secretary of State has reported an assessment of the have lost out as a result of the Bill. Many of the issues differential effects and impacts of the pensionable age were picked up by the Select Committee on Work and in England, Wales and Scotland. People are now living Pensions during our pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill longer and the better-off live longer than the worse-off, and it is a little disappointing that the Government have who work more years and start working earlier. The not always taken our advice on how they might be able latest evidence suggests that the gap is widening and to sort out the outstanding problems. One such problem, that is certainly the case as regards the differences which has already been mentioned by my hon. Friend between England and Wales. Wales has the lowest gross the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), is value added of the UK nations and regions. Welsh that of inherited rights, usually those of women who workers in general are less able to save for their pensions, expected to get their part of their state pension through which means that many people in Wales are reliant on their husbands’ contributions. Those who are nearing the state pension. Life expectancy in Wales is also lower retirement would have no opportunity to meet the de than it is in England. In my constituency, life expectancy minimis rule of 10 years if they were to start to make is 78.3 years for men whereas in Dorset it is 83 years. contributions now. Our suggestion was that there should Wales also has the appalling legacy of large-scale continue to be some transitional arrangements for those de-industrialisation and subsequent long-term worklessness. within 15 years of state pension age. That means that many people have broken employment records and a disproportionate number might not qualify Although it does not fall within this group of for a pension because of their lack of contributions. amendments, there is also the issue of those people who fell below the national insurance contribution threshold, The Government have stated that they intend to particularly those who have had two jobs that together review changes in life expectancy every five or six years, would have added up to take them above the threshold and I think Lord Turner suggested that they did so but have not. Perhaps the Minister could give us some every seven years. I have proposed a new clause to hint of what might happen to that group, who are again encourage Ministers to ensure that the panel reviewing predominantly women and will continue to lose out. Of life expectancy looks further and also considers Britain’s course, there is also new clause 6, which makes a request human geography of low incomes, no incomes, long-term on behalf of the group of women born between 6 April unemployment, sickness and disability. That broader 1951 and 1953. They obviously feel hard done by. inequality must be addressed, as it will certainly persist. There is also the group who have so-called frozen pensions, who have been so eloquently described this Steve Webb: In that short time we covered a wide afternoon. We did not recommend that the Government range of issues, and in the 10 minutes or so remaining, I should roll back the clock for those who have frozen shall try to respond to as much as I can, although I pensions, but we should not import into a brand-new apologise in advance to hon. Members whose amendments system the anomaly that those in Canada have their I do not reach. I shall deal with amendments in the pensions frozen whereas those in the United States do order in which they were raised. not. That did not seem fair to us as a Committee, and New clause 5 was dealt with by the hon. Member for we hoped the Government would act. Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and touched on by her colleague, the Chair of the Work and Pensions Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Lady for giving Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame way and for the contribution that her Committee continues Anne Begg). It addresses the position of the derived to make. Let us face it, those of us who have been in this rights of people who are shortly coming up to pension place for more than one Parliament have been hearing age and the fact that we are ending the ability to derive about frozen pensions for all that time—some of us for pensions from a spouse. The spirit of the new clause many years. Rather than our trying to solve it today implies transitional protection, but we have included through this Bill, is it not time that all the parties sat comprehensive transitional protections in the system. down together to discuss what commitment could be made for the next Parliament, regardless of who gets in, In particular, those who paid the married woman’s rather than the next Government being able to say stamp and as a result have a poor contribution record “Well, the last Government didn’t do it, so we’re not will, notwithstanding the fact that we are ending derived going to either”? rights, continue to be able to receive a 60% spouse’s pension or a 100% widow’s pension, because that was Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We the basis of the deal that they did with the state. They need short interventions. signed the married woman’s stamp, which said, “I’ll pay 853 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 854

[Steve Webb] such great complexity that we recreate the complex old system for well over a decade in the new one. That is less NI, but I understand that when I reach state pension why we reject new clause 5. age I’ll be able to get a pension based on my husband’s contribution record.” We took the view that because Sir Peter Bottomley: Did not the Minister’s last point— that was the basis of the deal, we could not change the that we do not want to continue the kind of discrimination rules. We have made sure that the limited number of that we had in the past—answer why he should accept women in that position are protected. amendment 1 and drop clause 20? The issue is whether we should go further. It is worth Steve Webb: My hon. Friend, as ever, is sharp on bearing in mind that to get a £66 pension, which is the these matters. Amendment 1, which stands in his name derived pension for a married woman, because of the and that of my hon. Friend the Member for North rate of the single tier pension, such a woman needs Thanet (Sir Roger Gale), would delete clause 20. As the 16 or 17 years in the system. For someone who has Chair of the Select Committee pointed out, that would spent their life in this country, it is very difficult not to do nothing for any of the overseas pensioners who have have achieved that or thereabouts. contacted us as their MPs; it would only remove the freezing for single-tier pensioners. I am sure that my Sheila Gilmore: There is an acceptance that for most hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter people it would be unusual for that circumstance to Bottomley) understands that point, but I just want to arise, but according to the Department’s own figures, be clear that if we voted for the amendment, all we some women are in that position. would be doing is creating a new anomaly. In a sense, the Chair of the Select Committee urged Steve Webb: Indeed. The hon. Lady is right. Some us to create that new anomaly. She said that we cannot women are in that position, but a significant proportion defend the old one and that we should at least not carry of them have had very limited contact with this country. on with it, but by doing that we would create a new This is the point that she touched on. Derived rights anomaly. It is not just about which side of the Niagara arise to people who have never even been to the country. falls one happens to live on, because single-tier pensioners They can get a 60% pension or a widow’s pension would get indexation but nobody else would. I think because their spouse is part of the UK pension system. that we all know what would happen: we would end up She is asking us to keep, for another 15 years, an back in court. My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing extraordinarily complex bit of the system rolling into West referred, quite properly, to the extensive legal the new system. We are trying to deliver a simple and background to the issue, because it has been tried and effective new state pension system and we have already tested by the International Consortium of British Pensioners introduced transitional protection for the most obvious in a range of courts, and all have found that in many group, the married woman’s stamp pensioners, which cases what the Government are doing is implementing we think needs to be protected. We could have kept the the law of the land as it has stood for decades. whole of the old system rolling on for another 15 years, My hon. Friends the Members for Worthing West but that would have created enormous complexity when and for North Thanet went to see the Prime Minister, we are trying to move to a simpler system. and I am grateful to them for doing so. The hon. Were we to follow new clause 5 and the Select Member for Worthing West referred to the reply he Committee’s recommendation and choose 15 years as received today from the Prime Minister—I am pleased the cut-off, we could be as sure as anything that we that he replied in advance of the debate—who stated would be under judicial review for someone who was that, having reflected on their arguments, he did not feel 16 years shy of the line. In other words, if we have a that a further review was appropriate at this point. cut-off date, we must have an objective basis for it, and Obviously, the context he referred to is the £700 million we can find no objective basis for choosing 15 years. I cost of indexing those pensions. The hon. Member for take the point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North Thanet said that they were not asking for that to South that because 10 years is the de minimis, 15 years be backdated, but I speculate that as soon as we start is a bit more than 10. I get that, but so is 16 or 14. indexing pensions and stepping them back up to where The hon. Member for Edinburgh East said that someone they would have been, the next court case will come some years ago was told not to buy missing years and when someone says, “Hang on a minute. Since you froze now it is too late. I stress that the ability to buy missing my pension I have missed out on X amount of money, years has been substantially relaxed by HMRC so people so I expect that to be paid back as well.” These wedges can buy back as far as 2005-06 on relatively favourable have a knack of having thin ends. The cost of addressing terms. Even by the end of the decade they will still be in this, at £700 million a year, is already substantial, but a position to buy back missing years. If they have spent backdating would lead to far more substantial costs, the money and they do not have it any more, they which is difficult to justify at present. cannot do it, but that aside, the ability to buy back Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): As another signatory to missing years still exists. Although buying 10 years amendment 1, I am disappointed by the Prime Minister’s costs a lot of money, very few people will be starting response. Will the Minister at least admit that he personally from zero. So to reach the 10-year de minimis would not feels that this is a terrible injustice that will have to be necessarily be a huge outlay. Many will be over that addressed sooner or later, because the longer we leave it level already and for those who are not and who have the more difficult it will be? been in this country, the chance to buy one or two missing years will be important. Steve Webb: I was asked about the issue when I What we are trying to do is, yes, to recognise where appeared before the Select Committee, and I said that I we need transitional protection, but we want to avoid sympathised with the pensioners we were talking about. 855 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 856

I commented that my sympathy would butter no parsnips, 6pm meaning that it would not be worth a huge amount to Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day). the people involved, but I was vilified for using that The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already phrase. I am not quite sure what to say, but I sympathise proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), with the point that was made. That the clause be read a Second time. My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West gave Question negatived. an example of someone on a pension of a few pounds a week being topped up by the Australian Government. I The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions do not know about the individual case, but in general if necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded all we did was increase that pension, we would not at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). necessarily increase the pensioner’s standard of living, because all that would do is take money out of what New Clause 8 they get from the Australian Government. If we are concerned about their standard of living, increasing REVIEW IN RELATION TO WOMEN BORN ON OR AFTER 6 their pension in a means-tested system would not necessarily APRIL 1951 help. ‘(1) The Secretary of State shall conduct a review to determine The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline whether all women born on or after 6 April 1951 should be Lucas) asked about giving women between 51 and 53 a included within the scope of the new state pension arrangements choice, and when the shadow Minister was asked for his established by this Act. opinion, he said that it was that we should have a (2) The Secretary of State must prepare and publish a report review. Obviously that plays to the gallery and sounds on the review within six months of Royal Assent of this Act and sympathetic, but it is not actually suggesting a solution. must lay a copy of the report before Parliament.’.—(Gregg The complexity that the hon. Lady and I have talked McClymont.) about is not so much that we could not give people all Brought up. the information, because we could, although it is Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. complicated to put across; the problem is that nobody The House divided: Ayes 231, Noes 295. knows what their future is. A woman could choose to take the single-tier pension on day one, which would Division No. 111] [6 pm look like the right thing to do because she would get more than she does under the current system, but if her AYES husband died the next day she would not get a derived Abbott, Ms Diane Coffey, Ann widow’s pension and she would have made herself worse Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, rh Yvette off as a result. Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Corbyn, Jeremy Ali, Rushanara Crausby, Mr David Allen, Mr Graham Creagh, Mary Caroline Lucas: I take the Minister’s point, but my Anderson, Mr David Creasy, Stella point is that it should be for that woman to decide. Yes, Austin, Ian Cruddas, Jon there is a risk, but she is better placed to make the Bailey, Mr Adrian Cryer, John judgment than he is. Many women would want that Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Alex change, and he has not given a good reason why it Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Mr Jim should not happen. Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Sir Tony Barron, rh Mr Kevin Curran, Margaret Beckett, rh Margaret Dakin, Nic Steve Webb: In addition to the issue of people who Begg, Dame Anne Danczuk, Simon will subsequently be bereaved is that of people who will Benn, rh Hilary Darling, rh Mr Alistair flow on to savings credit, and nobody can possibly Benton, Mr Joe David, Wayne know whether, at some point during the course of their Berger, Luciana Davidson, Mr Ian retirement, they will move on to that. Although I understand Betts, Mr Clive De Piero, Gloria the concerns that have been raised, that group of women Blackman-Woods, Roberta Denham, rh Mr John have actually benefited from the triple lock that we have Blears, rh Hazel Dobbin, Jim introduced. Far from doing them down, as the hon. Blenkinsop, Tom Dobson, rh Frank Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch Blomfield, Paul Dodds, rh Mr Nigel East (Gregg McClymont) has suggested, we have improved Blunkett, rh Mr David Donohoe, Mr Brian H. their pension position. On his more general point about Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doran, Mr Frank Brennan, Kevin Dowd, Jim the position of women in the pension system, this whole Brown, rh Mr Gordon Doyle, Gemma Bill is about improving that position. That is why I urge Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dromey, Jack the House to reject the amendments and to support the Bryant, Chris Dugher, Michael Bill. Burnham, rh Andy Durkan, Mark Byrne, rh Mr Liam Eagle, Ms Angela Sir Peter Bottomley: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Campbell, Mr Alan Eagle, Maria Speaker. Am I right in saying that, under the procedure Campbell, Mr Gregory Edwards, Jonathan of the House, amendment 1, which would remove clause 20, Campbell, Mr Ronnie Elliott, Julie will not be called because of the guillotine? Champion, Sarah Ellman, Mrs Louise Chapman, Jenny Engel, Natascha Clark, Katy Esterson, Bill Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I am not Clarke, rh Mr Tom Evans, Chris calling it. Unfortunately, that is the procedure of the Clwyd, rh Ann Farrelly, Paul House, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. Coaker, Vernon Field, rh Mr Frank 857 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 858

Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Williams, Hywel Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Williamson, Chris Wright, David Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Wilson, Phil Wright, Mr Iain Flynn, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Winnick, Mr David Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Tellers for the Ayes: Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian Wishart, Pete Susan Elan Jones and Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew Wood, Mike Stephen Doughty Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica Glass, Pat Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) NOES Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Grahame M. Godsiff, Mr Roger (Easington) Afriyie, Adam Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Goggins, rh Paul Mudie, Mr George Aldous, Peter Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Greatrex, Tom Munn, Meg Amess, Mr David Dorries, Nadine Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Andrew, Stuart Doyle-Price, Jackie Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Bacon, Mr Richard Drax, Richard Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Baker, Norman Duddridge, James Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Baker, Steve Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Baldry, Sir Tony Ellis, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Baldwin, Harriett Ellison, Jane Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Barclay, Stephen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pearce, Teresa Bebb, Guto Elphicke, Charlie Hermon, Lady Perkins, Toby Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Heyes, David Pound, Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Jonathan Hilling, Julie Powell, Lucy Benyon, Richard Evans, Mr Nigel Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Beresford, Sir Paul Evennett, Mr David Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Berry, Jake Fabricant, Michael Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Jamie Bingham, Andrew Fallon, rh Michael Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Steve Binley, Mr Brian Featherstone, Lynne Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Rachel Birtwistle, Gordon Field, Mark Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Blackman, Bob Foster, rh Mr Don Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Blackwood, Nicola Fox,rhDrLiam Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Blunt, Mr Crispin Freeman, George Jackson, Glenda Ritchie, Ms Margaret Boles, Nick Freer, Mike James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, Angus Bone, Mr Peter Fullbrook, Lorraine Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Bottomley, Sir Peter Fuller, Richard Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brady, Mr Graham Gale, Sir Roger Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Brake, rh Tom Garnier, Sir Edward Johnson, Diana Roy, Lindsay Brazier, Mr Julian Garnier, Mark Jones, Graham Ruane, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Gauke, Mr David Jones, Helen Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Brine, Steve George, Andrew Jones, Mr Kevan Sarwar, Anas Brokenshire, James Gibb, Mr Nick Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sawford, Andy Brooke, Annette Gilbert, Stephen Keeley, Barbara Seabeck, Alison Browne, Mr Jeremy Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Kendall, Liz Shannon, Jim Bruce, Fiona Glen, John Khan, rh Sadiq Sharma, Mr Virendra Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Goldsmith, Zac Lammy, rh Mr David Sheerman, Mr Barry Buckland, Mr Robert Goodwill, Mr Robert Lavery, Ian Sheridan, Jim Burley, Mr Aidan Gove, rh Michael Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin Burns, rh Mr Simon Graham, Richard Leslie, Chris Simpson, David Burrowes, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Skinner, Mr Dennis Burt, Alistair Grayling, rh Chris Lewis, Mr Ivan Slaughter, Mr Andy Burt, Lorely Greening, rh Justine Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, rh Mr Andrew Byles, Dan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Long, Naomi Smith, Angela Cable, rh Vince Griffiths, Andrew Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Nick Cairns, Alun Gummer, Ben Lucas, Caroline Smith, Owen Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gyimah, Mr Sam Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Carswell, Mr Douglas Halfon, Robert Mactaggart, Fiona Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Chishti, Rehman Hames, Duncan Mahmood, Shabana Tami, Mark Chope, Mr Christopher Hammond, Stephen Malhotra, Seema Thomas, Mr Gareth Clappison, Mr James Hancock, Mr Mike Mann, John Thornberry, Emily Clark, rh Greg Hands, Greg Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harper, Mr Mark McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Collins, Damian Harrington, Richard McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Stephen Colvile, Oliver Harris, Rebecca McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Crabb, Stephen Hart, Simon McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Crockart, Mike Harvey, Sir Nick McCrea, Dr William Vaz, Valerie Crouch, Tracey Hayes, rh Mr John McDonagh, Siobhain Walley, Joan Davey, rh Mr Edward Heald, Oliver McDonald, Andy Watson, Mr Tom Davies, Glyn Heath, Mr David McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Watts, Mr Dave Davies, Philip Heaton-Harris, Chris McDonnell, John Weir, Mr Mike Davis, rh Mr David Hemming, John McFadden, rh Mr Pat Whiteford, Dr Eilidh de Bois, Nick Henderson, Gordon McGovern, Alison Whitehead, Dr Alan Dinenage, Caroline Hendry, Charles 859 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 860

Herbert, rh Nick Nuttall, Mr David Uppal, Paul Wiggin, Bill Hinds, Damian O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Vaizey, Mr Edward Williams, Mr Mark Hoban, Mr Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Vara, Mr Shailesh Williams, Roger Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Vickers, Martin Williams, Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Opperman, Guy Walker, Mr Charles Williamson, Gavin Holloway, Mr Adam Paice, rh Sir James Walker, Mr Robin Wilson, Mr Rob Hopkins, Kris Parish, Neil Wallace, Mr Ben Wollaston, Dr Sarah Horwood, Martin Patel, Priti Ward, Mr David Wright, Jeremy Howell, John Paterson, rh Mr Owen Watkinson, Dame Angela Wright, Simon Hughes, rh Simon Pawsey, Mark Weatherley, Mike Yeo, Mr Tim Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penning, Mike Webb, Steve Young, rh Sir George Hunter, Mark Penrose, John Wharton, James Zahawi, Nadhim Huppert, Dr Julian Percy, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Tellers for the Noes: Hurd, Mr Nick Phillips, Stephen White, Chris Gavin Barwell and Jackson, Mr Stewart Pickles, rh Mr Eric Whittingdale, Mr John Jenny Willott James, Margot Pincher, Christopher Javid, Sajid Prisk, Mr Mark Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pugh, John Question accordingly negatived. Johnson, Joseph Raab, Mr Dominic Jones, Andrew Randall, rh Sir John Clause 24 Jones, rh Mr David Reckless, Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Redwood, rh Mr John Kawczynski, Daniel Rees-Mogg, Jacob ABOLITION OF CONTRACTING-OUT FOR SALARY Kelly, Chris Reevell, Simon RELATED SCHEMES ETC Kirby, Simon Reid, Mr Alan Amendments made: 2, page 11, line 36, leave out Knight, rh Sir Greg Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm ‘those members’ and insert ‘some or all of the members Kwarteng, Kwasi Robathan, rh Mr Andrew to whom the amendments apply’. Lamb, Norman Robertson, rh Hugh Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Amendment 3, page 11, line 37, at end insert— Latham, Pauline Rogerson, Dan ‘( ) The power may be used to make amendments that will Laws, rh Mr David Rudd, Amber apply in relation to future members and correspond to the Leadsom, Andrea Ruffley, Mr David amendments being made in relation to current members.’.— Lee, Jessica Russell, Sir Bob (Steve Webb.) Lee, Dr Phillip Rutley, David Amendment proposed: 37, page 11, line 40, at end Leech, Mr John Sanders, Mr Adrian insert— Lefroy, Jeremy Sandys, Laura ‘(c) a scheme in respect of any of its terms which relate to Leigh, Sir Edward Scott, Mr Lee persons protected under the terms of— Leslie, Charlotte Selous, Andrew (i) the Electricity (Protected Persons) (England and Lewis, Brandon Shapps, rh Grant Wales) Pension Regulations 1990; Lewis, Dr Julian Sharma, Alok (ii) the Electricity (Protected Persons) (Scotland) Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shelbrooke, Alec Pension Regulations 1990; Lilley, rh Mr Peter Simpson, Mr Keith (iii) the Electricity (Protected Persons) (Northern Lloyd, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Ireland) Pension Regulations 1992; Lord, Jonathan Smith, Miss Chloe (iv) the Railway Pensions (Protection and Designation Loughton, Tim Smith, Henry of Schemes) Order 1984; Luff, Peter Smith, Julian (v) the London Transport Pensions Arrangements Lumley, Karen Smith, Sir Robert Order 2000; Macleod, Mary Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline (vi) the Coal Industry (Protected Persons) Pensions Maude, rh Mr Francis Spencer, Mr Mark Regulations 1994; or Maynard, Paul Stephenson, Andrew (vii) the nuclear industry employees protected by McCartney, Karl Stevenson, John Schedule 8 of the Energy Act 2004.’.—(Gregg McIntosh, Miss Anne Stewart, Iain McClymont.) McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Rory McVey, Esther Streeter, Mr Gary Question put, That the amendment be made. Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel The House divided: Ayes 230, Noes 290. Metcalfe, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Division No. 112] [6.14 pm Miller, rh Maria Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Milton, Anne Sturdy, Julian Moore, rh Michael Swales, Ian AYES Morgan, Nicky Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Abbott, Ms Diane Beckett, rh Margaret Morris, Anne Marie Swinson, Jo Abrahams, Debbie Begg, Dame Anne Morris, James Swire, rh Mr Hugo Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Benn, rh Hilary Mosley, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Alexander, Heidi Benton, Mr Joe Mowat, David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Ali, Rushanara Berger, Luciana Mulholland, Greg Thornton, Mike Allen, Mr Graham Betts, Mr Clive Mundell, rh David Thurso, John Anderson, Mr David Blackman-Woods, Roberta Munt, Tessa Timpson, Mr Edward Austin, Ian Blears, rh Hazel Murray, Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Bailey, Mr Adrian Blenkinsop, Tom Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David Bain, Mr William Blomfield, Paul Newmark, Mr Brooks Truss, Elizabeth Balls, rh Ed Blunkett, rh Mr David Newton, Sarah Turner, Mr Andrew Banks, Gordon Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Norman, Jesse Tyrie, Mr Andrew Barron, rh Mr Kevin Brennan, Kevin 861 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 862

Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hermon, Lady Perkins, Toby Smith, Owen Bryant, Chris Heyes, David Pound, Stephen Spellar, rh Mr John Burnham, rh Andy Hilling, Julie Powell, Lucy Stringer, Graham Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Campbell, Mr Alan Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Tami, Mark Campbell, Mr Gregory Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Jamie Thomas, Mr Gareth Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel Thornberry, Emily Champion, Sarah Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma Trickett, Jon Chapman, Jenny Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Turner, Karl Clark, Katy Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Twigg, Stephen Clarke, rh Mr Tom Irranca-Davies, Huw Ritchie, Ms Margaret Umunna, Mr Chuka Clwyd, rh Ann Jackson, Glenda Robertson, Angus Vaz, rh Keith Coaker, Vernon James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, John Vaz, Valerie Coffey, Ann Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Walley, Joan Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve Watson, Mr Tom Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay Watts, Mr Dave Crausby, Mr David Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Weir, Mr Mike Creagh, Mary Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Creasy, Stella Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Whitehead, Dr Alan Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr Kevan Sawford, Andy Williams, Hywel Cryer, John Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Seabeck, Alison Williamson, Chris Cunningham, Alex Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim Wilson, Phil Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Winnick, Mr David Cunningham, Sir Tony Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Curran, Margaret Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Wishart, Pete Dakin, Nic Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Wood, Mike Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian Simpson, David Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Wright, David David, Wayne Leslie, Chris Slaughter, Mr Andy Wright, Mr Iain Davidson, Mr Ian Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Smith, rh Mr Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: De Piero, Gloria Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Susan Elan Jones and Denham, rh Mr John Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Stephen Doughty Dobbin, Jim Long, Naomi Dobson, rh Frank Love, Mr Andrew Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline NOES Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian Afriyie, Adam Burt, Alistair Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Aldous, Peter Burt, Lorely Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Amess, Mr David Byles, Dan Doyle, Gemma Malhotra, Seema Andrew, Stuart Cable, rh Vince Dromey, Jack Mann, John Bacon, Mr Richard Cairns, Alun Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Baker, Norman Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Durkan, Mark McCabe, Steve Baker, Steve Carswell, Mr Douglas Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael Baldry, Sir Tony Chishti, Rehman Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Baldwin, Harriett Chope, Mr Christopher Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Barclay, Stephen Clappison, Mr James Elliott, Julie McCrea, Dr William Bebb, Guto Clark, rh Greg Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonald, Andy Beith, rh Sir Alan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Engel, Natascha McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Bellingham, Mr Henry Collins, Damian Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Benyon, Richard Colvile, Oliver Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Beresford, Sir Paul Crockart, Mike Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Alison Berry, Jake Crouch, Tracey Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Bingham, Andrew Davey, rh Mr Edward Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Glyn Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Philip Flint, rh Caroline McKenzie, Mr Iain Blackman, Bob Davis, rh Mr David Flynn, Paul Meacher, rh Mr Michael Blackwood, Nicola de Bois, Nick Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Blunt, Mr Crispin Dinenage, Caroline Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Boles, Nick Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Gardiner, Barry Morden, Jessica Bone, Mr Peter Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorries, Nadine Glass, Pat Morris, Grahame M. Brady, Mr Graham Doyle-Price, Jackie Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) Brake, rh Tom Drax, Richard Goggins, rh Paul Mudie, Mr George Bridgen, Andrew Duddridge, James Greatrex, Tom Munn, Meg Brine, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Brokenshire, James Ellis, Michael Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Brooke, Annette Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Bruce, Fiona Elphicke, Charlie Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Evans, Graham Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Jonathan Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Burley, Mr Aidan Evans, Mr Nigel Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Burns, rh Mr Simon Evennett, Mr David Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pearce, Teresa Burrowes, Mr David Fabricant, Michael 863 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 864

Fallon, rh Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Robertson, rh Hugh Thornton, Mike Featherstone, Lynne Lamb, Norman Robertson, Mr Laurence Thurso, John Field, Mark Lancaster, Mark Rogerson, Dan Timpson, Mr Edward Foster, rh Mr Don Latham, Pauline Rudd, Amber Tomlinson, Justin Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Tredinnick, David Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Russell, Sir Bob Truss, Elizabeth Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Rutley, David Turner, Mr Andrew Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Sanders, Mr Adrian Tyrie, Mr Andrew Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Sandys, Laura Uppal, Paul Garnier, Sir Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Scott, Mr Lee Vaizey, Mr Edward Garnier, Mark Leigh, Sir Edward Selous, Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Shapps, rh Grant Vickers, Martin George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Sharma, Alok Walker, Mr Charles Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shelbrooke, Alec Walker, Mr Robin Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Simmonds, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Ward, Mr David Glen, John Lord, Jonathan Skidmore, Chris Weatherley, Mike Goldsmith, Zac Loughton, Tim Smith, Miss Chloe Webb, Steve Goodwill, Mr Robert Luff, Peter Smith, Henry Wharton, James Gove, rh Michael Lumley, Karen Smith, Julian Wheeler, Heather Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Smith, Sir Robert White, Chris Grant, Mrs Helen Maude, rh Mr Francis Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Whittingdale, Mr John Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Spencer, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Karl Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John Williams, Roger Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Iain Williams, Stephen Gummer, Ben McVey, Esther Stewart, Rory Williamson, Gavin Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Wilson, Mr Rob Halfon, Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Stride, Mel Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hames, Duncan Miller, rh Maria Stuart, Mr Graham Wright, Jeremy Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wright, Simon Hancock, Matthew Moore, rh Michael Sturdy, Julian Yeo, Mr Tim Hancock, Mr Mike Morgan, Nicky Swales, Ian Young, rh Sir George Hands, Greg Morris, Anne Marie Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Zahawi, Nadhim Harper, Mr Mark Morris, James Swinson, Jo Harrington, Richard Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Tellers for the Noes: Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Gavin Barwell and Hart, Simon Mulholland, Greg Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Jenny Willott Harvey, Sir Nick Mundell, rh David Hayes, rh Mr John Munt, Tessa Question accordingly negatived. Heald, Oliver Murray, Sheryll Heath, Mr David Neill, Robert Heaton-Harris, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Clause 24 Hemming, John Newton, Sarah Henderson, Gordon Norman, Jesse ABOLITION OF CONTRACTING-OUT FOR SALARY Hendry, Charles Nuttall, Mr David RELATED SCHEMES ETC Herbert, rh Nick O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Hinds, Damian Offord, Dr Matthew Amendment made: 4, page 11, line 42, at end insert— Hoban, Mr Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric ‘“current member”, in relation to a scheme, means a person Hollingbery, George Opperman, Guy who is a member of the scheme at the time that the power is used Hollobone, Mr Philip Paice, rh Sir James (and “future member” is to be read accordingly);’.—(Steve Webb.) Holloway, Mr Adam Parish, Neil Hopkins, Kris Patel, Priti Clause 46 Horwood, Martin Paterson, rh Mr Owen Howell, John Pawsey, Mark REGULATIONS AND ORDERS Hughes, rh Simon Penning, Mike Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penrose, John Amendment made: 12, page 24, line 8, at end insert— Hunter, Mark Percy, Andrew ‘(e) regulations under paragraph 2 of Schedule [Work- Huppert, Dr Julian Phillips, Stephen based schemes: power to restrict charges or impose Hurd, Mr Nick Pickles, rh Mr Eric requirements] or regulations under paragraph 7 of Jackson, Mr Stewart Pincher, Christopher that Schedule that amend a provision of an Act, or James, Margot Prisk, Mr Mark (f) the first regulations under paragraph 3 of that Javid, Sajid Pugh, John Schedule,’.—(Steve Webb.) Jenkin, Mr Bernard Raab, Mr Dominic Johnson, Joseph Randall, rh Sir John Jones, Andrew Reckless, Mark Clause 48 Jones, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Jones, Mr Marcus Rees-Mogg, Jacob COMMENCEMENT Kawczynski, Daniel Reevell, Simon Amendment made: 13, page 24, line 32, leave out ‘This Kelly, Chris Reid, Mr Alan Part comes’ and insert ‘Section [Preserving indefinite Kirby, Simon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm status of certain existing assessed income periods] and Knight, rh Sir Greg Robathan, rh Mr Andrew this Part come’.—(Steve Webb.) 865 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 866

Schedule 1 (2) The regulations may provide for section 10 of the Pensions Act 1995 (civil penalties) to apply to a person who fails to comply with a requirement. TRANSITIONAL RATE OF STATE PENSION: CALCULATING THE AMOUNT (3) In this paragraph “managers”, in relation to a pension scheme (other than a scheme established under a trust), means Amendment made: 14, page 28, line 17, leave out from the persons responsible for the management of the scheme.’. ‘if’ to end of line 21 and insert—sections 46 and 48A of Amendment 24, page 79, line 16, after the second ‘a’ the Pension Schemes Act 1993 were ignored, and for the insert ‘current’.—(Steve Webb.) purposes of calculating the amounts referred to in section 45(2)(c) and (d) of the Contributions and Benefits Schedule 15 Act any earnings paid to or for the benefit of the person in respect of contracted-out employment were treated BEREAVEMENT SUPPORT PAYMENT: AMENDMENTS as if they were not in respect of contracted-out employment. Amendments made: 25, page 82, line 17, leave out (i) sections 46 and 48A of the Pension Schemes Act 1993 were ‘sections 27 and 28’ and insert ‘Part 3’. ignored, and Amendment 26, page 83, line 8, leave out ‘section 27 (ii) for the purposes of calculating the amounts referred to in section 45(2)(c) and (d) of the Contributions and Benefits Act or 28’ and insert ‘Part 3’. any earnings paid to or for the benefit of the person in respect of Amendment 27, page 83, line 11, leave out ‘section 27 contracted-out employment were treated as if they were not in or 28’ and insert ‘Part 3’.—(Steve Webb.) respect of contracted-out employment. ‘(2) “Contracted-out employment” means employment qualifying New Clause 2 a person for a pension provided by a salary related contracted-out scheme, a money purchase contracted-out scheme or an appropriate BEREAVEMENT SUPPORT PAYMENT: PRISONERS personal pension scheme (and expressions used in this definition ‘(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide that a have the same meaning as in the Pension Schemes Act 1993).’.—(Steve person is not to be paid bereavement support payment for any Webb.) period during which the person is a prisoner. (2) “Prisoner” means a person (in Great Britain or elsewhere) Schedule 12 who is— (a) imprisoned or detained in legal custody, or (b) unlawfully at large. STATE PENSION: AMENDMENTS Amendments made: 15, page 48, line 27, at end insert— (3) In the case of a person remanded in custody for an offence, regulations under subsection (1) may be made so as to apply only ‘In section 71 (overpayments - general), in subsection (11), if a sentence of a specified description is later imposed on the before paragraph (a) insert— person for the offence.’.—(Steve Webb.) “(za) state pension or a lump sum under Part 1 of the Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added Pensions Act 2013;”.’. to the Bill. Amendment 16, page 53, line 16, at end insert— Third Reading ‘The State Pension Credit Act 2002 is amended as follows. Queen’s consent signified. In section 7 (fixing of claimant’s retirement provision for assessed income period), in subsection (6)(a), after “benefit under” 6.26 pm insert “Part 1 of the Pensions Act 2013 or”.’. Steve Webb: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read Amendment 17, page 53, line 17, leave out ‘of the the Third time. State Pension Credit Act 2002’.—(Steve Webb.) One of the problems on Report is that we get back into the weeds and the detail and lose track of the big Schedule 14 picture. I think we can all be proud of producing a Bill that will be seen by history as a lasting and valuable reform to the pensions system, even if I say so myself. POWER TO AMEND SCHEMES TO REFLECT ABOLITION OF To begin on a note of consensus, I thank the Select CONTRACTING-OUT Committee on Work and Pensions and its Chair, the Amendments made: 18, page 77, line 40, at end insert— hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), ‘( ) The regulations may make provision about the calculation who is in her place, for its pre-legislative scrutiny of the of those amounts, including provision requiring them to be draft Bill, or at least the parts relating to the single-tier calculated in accordance with specified methods or assumptions.’. pension. We are grateful for that input and made changes Amendment 19, page 78, line 28, leave out ‘relevant’. in the light of its recommendations, including putting Amendment 20, page 78, line 35, leave out ‘relevant’. the start date in the Bill and setting the maximum and Amendment 21, page 79, line 8, at end insert ‘and minimum qualifying period at 10 qualifying years. We supplementary matters’. have discussed further some of the Committee’s recommendations as we have proceeded. We are grateful Amendment 22, page 79, line 10, at end insert— for its constructive and swift scrutiny of the Bill. ‘Regulations under this Schedule may confer a discretion on a The reason for the Bill is that we have a state pension person.’ system still grounded in the models of the second world Amendment 23, page 79, line 10, at end insert— war, a system where men went out to work and women ‘Information depended on men, and a system of mind-numbing (1) Regulations may require the trustees or managers of an complexity that made it impossible for people to plan occupational pension scheme to provide information requested rationally for their retirement. Each change by successive by an employer in connection with the powers given by Governments has been made with the best of intentions, section 24(2). but, grafted on to the previous lot of changes, they left 867 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 868 people with a system that nobody could hope to understand. universal credit, whereas a long-term income replacement That mattered in its own right, but it matters particularly benefit almost certainly would not be. By delivering the in a world of automatic enrolment if we are to expect money in this way, therefore, the lump sum is tax-free another 10 million people to save, in some cases, relatively and the short-term payment is not counted against small amounts for their retirement. They have to be able people’s universal credit, whereas a long-term payment to do so confident that they will not see their hard-earned would be, meaning that bereaved families might end up savings means-tested away. That is why the single-tier getting less support were we to extend the period. So state pension, a single, simple decent state pension set there are trade-offs and reasons why these balances above the level of the basic means test, is such a have been struck. fundamental reform. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): The Minister will been supportive of this principle from day one. I am know that as the Bill is drafted, and moving towards its grateful to him and to my colleagues in the Department final phase in the House, the bereavement support for the fact that the coalition has been able to introduce payment does not apply to Northern Ireland. Will he this reform, which is long overdue and will, I believe, clarify whether, were it to be introduced by the Northern stand the test of time. While we have had our differences Ireland Assembly, it would be paid for centrally? with the Opposition, I am grateful to them for their support of the principle of the single-tier pension. We Steve Webb: I would be happy to provide the hon. all want to see a pension system that is not constantly Lady with the clarification she seeks, either while I am chopped and changed, but stands the test of time. I still at the Dispatch Box or subsequently, if that would believe that the single-tier pension, subject to any further be helpful. refinements their lordships might wish to make, will Part 4 of the Bill, which occupied the majority of our indeed stand the test of time and will provide a firm time in the House, deals with automatic enrolment and foundation for retirement saving. one the many issues not addressed until this coalition The Bill does not only deal with the single-tier pension. Government came to power—the issue of small stranded Part 2 brings forward the increase in the state pension pension pots. We anticipate that there could be tens of age to 67 and sets out a process for dealing with these millions of small stranded pension pots, which is not things in a more rational and measured way. We envisage something any of us want. I think that the prospect of that as life expectancy increases, the majority of that the pot-follows-member system, under which people time will be added to working life, but a period will be change jobs and the small pension pots go with them added also to retirement. It is a measured, balanced and and build into what I have called a big, fat pot, is a systematic approach that will allow people to plan for better model. It will engage people with pension saving their retirement in a way that all too often they cannot. and result in people knowing where their pensions are Part 3 reforms the bereavement support payment, and getting better value for annuities. That will be of which we have not been able to discuss today, and which great value. is designed to focus support for bereaved families on It would be fair to say that a Bill such as this does not that point immediately after bereavement and in the just happen, but depends on the work of an army of year thereafter, when bereaved families have told us officials with expertise in both state and private pensions, they need the most support and cash. That is the on parliamentary counsel and on the many stakeholders purpose of the reform. who have given us advice and encouragement and enabled us to refine the Bill. I put on the record my appreciation Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Like my hon. to all of them. Friend, I welcome the Bill, which is an important, historic and long-overdue change in the pension system, but will he acknowledge that charities such as Winston’s Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Like the Minister, Wish, based in my constituency, and the Childhood I support the Bill, but I have constituents concerned Bereavement Network have expressed concerns about about the 35-year rule, as they fall a few years short of the bereavement support arrangements in the Bill, it. There is genuine concern for them. What reassurances particularly for parents who still need that support after can he give me on this issue? one year— Steve Webb: My hon. Friend raises an issue that has Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. This caused a little confusion, but I can reassure him that is meant to be an intervention, not a speech. It is unfair although the single-tier pension is based on a 35-year on the other Members waiting to speak. In fairness, contribution, 35 years buys someone a £144 pension, so Mr Horwood, you ought to give a little more consideration each year has been valued at a more generous rate than and make shorter interventions. the 30 years for the £110 basic pension. Under the new system, nobody will lose out from the change because Steve Webb: The charity in my hon. Friend’s constituency, we compare someone’s entitlement under the current Winston’s Wish, was referred to earlier by the hon. system with their entitlement under the new system, Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), and we and their foundation amount going forward is the higher take its concerns seriously. I stress that what we have of those two amounts. If the move to 35 years prejudices put in place is a structure of reform that will involve us any of my hon. Friend’s constituents, they will get the actually spending slightly more over the coming years figure they would have got under the current system, on support for bereaved families, but there is a debate to and if it benefits them, which it will in many cases, they be had about how long support should last. For various will get the higher figure. I hope that that offers him the reasons, going beyond a year raises difficult issues. For reassurance he seeks but I am happy to respond to him example, a short-term benefit can be disregarded for in writing. 869 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 870

Julie Hilling: Is the Minister saying that those people the equation—private pensions via automatic enrolment who fall short of the 35-year rule will receive their for the 10 million people who are currently going through £144 a week pension or that, for life, it will be less than that process—the Minister says he has to do a lot of that? things, but a lot of them remain to be done. The Minister is giving himself powers in various areas but Steve Webb: To be clear, someone with 30 years and without specifying what he intends to do with those no SERPS under the current system gets 30 30ths of powers. I suggest that while we can welcome the move £110, a basic pension. Under our system, they get to a flat rate state pension, there will be more work for 30 35ths of £144, which is more. The fact they have not the House to do in terms of keeping the Minister on the got 35 years does not matter. They get a bigger pension. right track regarding how the private pension system It does depend on how much SERPS someone has, interacts in a coherent and comprehensive fashion with which is why I say that some will get more. But no one the flat rate state pension. will get less because our starting point for the calculation The Minister rather generously suggested that Labour is the better of the two numbers. The move to 35 years Members had a vision for the private pensions market. for people already in the system cannot give them less He went on to say that he did not agree with it, but it pension than they have already built up but does give turns out that in one respect, he does. He seems to have them the opportunity to build up more. come round to Labour’s view on the need to take tough The opportunity to talk about the Bill is enticing and action to cap pension charges. As I mentioned earlier I could go on at great length, but the key point is that today, it was just over a year ago that he said that the notwithstanding the differences we have had on detail, Leader of the Opposition was scaremongering when he this is a Bill of which the House can be proud. It drew attention to the problems in the pensions market, introduces—for the first time, essentially, in 50 years—a yet we have heard the Minister using tough language single, simple and decent state pension that provides a today on the need to sort out the market, and on having firm foundation for auto-enrolment. It rationalises the a consultation on a price cap. The details of the consultation process of raising state pension ages. It reforms the will be produced tomorrow, and we await them with bereavement support system. It gives us a private pension great interest. We welcome the Minister across to the system that is fit for purpose for the world we are side of right and justice on the issue of a pensions moving into and it is with considerable pride that I price cap. commend it to the House. The Bill has thrown up a number of questions on the two essential parts of the pension system—state pension 6.36pm reform and the pillar of additional pension saving—and Gregg McClymont: When the Minister first came to many of them have been dealt with effectively. However, the House in January with his statement on the questions remain about the pensions market side of the Government’s plans for a flat rate state pension, I equation and about additional pension savings. Let us suggested that the devil would be in the detail and that not forget that the new flat-rate state pension will not there would be winners and losers from such a substantial provide most people with the kind of income they will reform. Inevitably, that has proven to be the case. I need and expect in retirement. The burden will therefore think we have to give the Minister credit for taking the be on the new auto-enrolment pensions to deliver the Bill through its various stages. It is a complex Bill; necessary additional income. We believe that the Minister certainly some of its consequences and implications are still needs to do a significant amount of work on this, complex. either by using effectively the powers he has given The Minister has decided—with some justification himself or by bringing further proposals to the House. on his part—that he sees a hard and fast wind-up of the In taking forward the Bill, the Minister has taken second state pension and the move to a flat rate state significant steps forward in the state pension sphere. pension as the best way to proceed. At the same time, There will be losers, however, and he has not said much the Minister says that the Bill makes private pensions fit about them. He has inevitably focused on the winners in for purpose and gives a firm foundation for auto-enrolment. the flat-rate state pension reforms. However, we do not That would be a fair characterisation of the Minister’s oppose the Bill. We believe that the principle of a comments at Third Reading. flat-rate state pension is sensible, but if the Minister If we reflect for a moment—usually Third Reading is really wants both parts of the pension system to interact a time to do that—the Minister deserves credit for cohesively and effectively, he will need to act fast to taking forward the consensus created by the Turner reform the dysfunctional private pensions market. commission, which, set up by the last Government, had three important aspects in particular: to start dealing 6.42 pm with the issue of longevity; to start rebuilding the additional pensions savings pillar that decisions of previous Julie Hilling: I am grateful for this opportunity to Conservative Governments had damaged significantly; speak briefly in the debate. I want to speak up on behalf and to get a simpler state pension. That is the context in of Maureen Davenport and the many other women which the Minister has proceeded with his Bill and who have contacted me about what is happening to taking forward that consensus means that he deserves their pensions. Let me start by quoting Maureen Davenport, significant credit. a retired head teacher. She says: In any Bill such as this, there will inevitably be kinks “I have worked all my life and paid taxes and other contributions, as required. I also have an occupational pension. I have just and things that need to be sorted out, but there is a lack turned sixty years of age and I am fully aware of the Pensions of balance in the Bill. The Minister has been very clear Act 1995 which twice deferred the age at which I could access my and put into statute everything that will happen in state pension. What I am currently told is that I am now in the age terms of the state pension. In terms of the other side of bracket where I am not able to access the new flat rate higher 871 Pensions Bill29 OCTOBER 2013 Pensions Bill 872 pension as I was born between 5 April 1952 and July 1953. As is “It is important to note that we are not proposing simply to said by many in the media, I am one of many women facing a increase the pension from £110 per week for today’s pensioners to ‘State Pension Double Whammy’: deferred pension and a potential around £144 week for new pensioners…Future pensioners will loss of nearly £40 per week for life. It would seem logical and fair simply build up towards a flat rate pension of around £144—there to have grouped all women who have a deferred pension into the will be no additional State Pension on top of this figure, so the higher flat rate pension rather than penalise this age group. I feel maximum State Pension attainable under the new system will be very strongly that I have, once again, been penalised at a time significantly lower than under the current system. I should also when I cannot affect my retirement income and have very little add that in some ways the new system will be less generous for voice and opportunity to affect change.” those who retire after April 2016.” Maureen is typical of the many women who have contacted The letter went on to say: me, and they are just a few of the 720,000 women who “While women born shortly after your constituent may receive will be worse off as a result of the Government’s changes a single-tier pension, they will have to wait several months longer to the state pension. than your constituent before they can start to draw a pension. Furthermore, the average entitlement for women reaching State Steve Webb: In the event that the record might suggest Pension age shortly after the new system’s introduction is projected that the hon. Lady’s constituent will be worse off, I to be £131 per week and not the illustrative single-tier full rate of want to confirm that the only change we have made to £144 per week. In comparison, women reaching State Pension age her constituent’s pension is to introduce the triple lock, shortly before the new system is introduced will receive an average which will give her more generous indexation than she of £125 per week under the current system, made up from a would have had. That is the only change that we have combination of basic and additional State Pension.” made to that lady’s pension. It seems clear to me that women born in that age bracket will be disadvantaged, yet the Government Julie Hilling: My understanding is that that is not the announced their proposed changes with a grand fanfare only change: my constituent will not be able to access about how much better off all pensioners would be £144 a week because the second state pension has been under the new system. They have failed to tell people, done away with and she will not be entitled to that particularly women, that some of them would be worse money. If I am wrong, perhaps the Minister will tell me off. I just wonder why everything this Government do that my constituent will receive the equivalent of £144 a seems to make things worse for women, who are hit by week. No, she will not receive that, so she is being so many things—hit twice as hard, for example, by the penalised by this action, because she will not be able to Budget and three times as hard by other Government receive her second state pension. [Interruption.] actions. I will continue to make progress. Like me, these women are angry and upset because they have done the right things all their lives, yet will be disadvantaged in Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Lady explain why the comparison with a man born on exactly the same day as triple lock made things worse for women? they were. This is not the only issue that hurts women. Raising Julie Hilling: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his the number of necessary years for national insurance intervention. Of course the triple lock affects everybody; contributions to 35 again disproportionately hits women. it does not just affect women. Some of the changes, We know that women are the ones who normally take however, affect women only. That is my point. It is not time off to look after children and, indeed, to look after that this Government are doing nothing—I applaud the ageing parents and ageing parents-in-law. This Government triple lock—but I deplore the fact that whenever the will undo the good work done by the last Labour Budget and other measures are taken, it is often women Government to improve the lot of women’s pensions, who suffer. Women are worse affected, as they are on with a further 100,000 fewer qualifying for a full pension. this pensions issue. This is particularly unfair to those who are close to I finish by asking why the Government are trying to retirement age, who will not have the opportunity to turn the clock back to times when things were worse for make up the extra years—unless they work well into women than for men. This Government continue to act their 70s. in that way, which greatly disappoints me. I wrote to the Minister about Maureen and my other constituents. The letter I received back was illuminating Question put and agreed to. and, frankly, complacent. Let me quote some of it: Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. 873 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 874 Prosecutor’s Office Eurojust and the European Public therefore require the endorsement of the public. I think Prosecutor’s Office that that is because, owing to the significant impact that it would have on the criminal justice system, the change [Relevant Document: 15th Report from the European would be so significant and fundamental—for reasons Scrutiny Committee, HC 83-xv, Chapters 2 and 3.] that I shall explain shortly—that it would require the backing not just not of Parliament but of the public. 6.49 pm The flaws in the EPPO proposal frame the context in which we must also consider the Eurojust proposal. The The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the reforms proposed to Eurojust would involve deep Home Department (James Brokenshire): I beg to move, connections with the EPPO, because the legal base for That this House takes note of European Union Documents the EPPO requires it to be created “from Eurojust”. No. 12566/13, a draft Regulation on the European Union Agency The Commission has sought to reflect that by creating for Criminal Justice Co-operation (Eurojust), and No. 12558/13 and Addenda 1 and 2, a draft Regulation on the establishment of operational, management and administrative links between a European Public Prosecutor’s Office (EPPO); agrees with the the two bodies. That includes the exchange of data, Government that the UK should not opt in to the draft Regulation including personal data; automatic cross-checking of on the Eurojust at this time and should conduct a thorough data held on each body’s IT system; and Eurojust’s review of the final agreed text to inform active consideration of treating any request for support from the EPPO as if it opting into the Eurojust Regulation, post adoption, in consultation had been received from a national competent authority. with Parliament; and further agrees with the Government that the UK should not participate in the establishment of any European At a time when we do not know what the EPPO will Public Prosecutor’s Office. look like—given that the Commission must now review On 17 July, the European Commission formally proposed its proposal following the yellow card—let alone how the establishment of a European public prosecutor’s the relationship between it and Eurojust might ultimately office and reforms to the existing European Union be defined in either text, it would be irresponsible in the body, Eurojust. This triggered the UK’s opt-in protocol. extreme for us to risk binding ourselves to the European The Government have been clear that we will not participate public prosecutor through our participation in the new in the EPPO. As is clear from the motion, the Government Eurojust proposal. That would be a needless risk, given also recommend that we should not opt into the new that we can review our place in Eurojust on its adoption. Eurojust proposal at the start of negotiations, but should conduct a thorough review of the final agreed text to Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Does inform active consideration of opting in post-adoption. the Minister not think it particularly unfortunate that As the coalition agreement makes plain, we will put when the functions performed by Eurojust are so necessary the United Kingdom’s national interest at the heart of and so valuable, our ability to co-operate in that mechanism every decision that we make on whether to participate should be impaired by its becoming interlocked with a in new European Union crime and policing measures. proposal with which we disagree? Our law enforcement and prosecution agencies must work closely with their counterparts in other European James Brokenshire: That is an important point. As countries to combat the threat of cross-border crime. my right hon. Friend will know, the Government believe That does not mean, however, that we should sign up to that the existing structure for Eurojust works well, and new EU legislation that is not in the UK’s national provides for effective practical co-operation in dealing interest. with cross-border criminality. I shall develop that point I am sure that the House is clear about our position further during my speech. on the European public prosecutor’s office. As was We also need to consider what the coalition programme established during a thorough debate in the House only says about preserving the integrity of our criminal a week ago, the Commission’s EPPO proposal is justice system when deciding whether to opt into a new fundamentally flawed on many levels, not least in failing justice and home affairs proposal. The new Eurojust to pass the subsidiarity test. I am pleased to say that proposal would create mandatory powers for national there has now been a sufficient number of votes in members—powers which would allow it to require coercive member states’ national Parliaments—including the House measures at a national level. This House will already be of Commons last week and the other place last night—to aware that we have expressed concerns about any such result in the issue of what is termed a yellow card, which powers being granted to Europol, the EU police agency, means that the Commission is now required to review and our concerns hold true in this regard too. The its proposal. proposed text goes further in explicitly requiring that those based in The Hague would be able to insist that Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I welcome national authorities take investigative measures in certain what the Minister has just said about the number of circumstances. That could, for example, include requiring votes that will ensure that a review will take place. Will them to issue a search warrant in the UK. That would he confirm that, if the Government were minded to cut across the division of responsibilities and separation proceed with the opt-in—which I am glad they are of powers between police and prosecutors in England not—that would require the endorsement of the British and Wales and Northern Ireland. It also fails to take people, given the provision that any extra powers going into account the role of the independent judiciary in to Brussels requires their endorsement through a ensuring that certain coercive measures are granted to referendum? police in appropriate circumstances. Moreover, the proposals would conflict with the role of the Lord Advocate in James Brokenshire: That is absolutely correct. The Scotland, who has the sole, ultimate responsibility for proposal for the creation of a European public prosecutor determining investigative action in Scotland. That would was framed specifically in those terms, and it would be undermined by the proposed powers. 875 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 876 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office These are not matters of mere technicality. They are James Brokenshire: Consultation has taken place with about fundamental aspects of our systems of law and the Scottish Government and with the devolved would require wholesale and unjustified changes in Administration in Northern Ireland to keep them apprised order to be implemented. They would also conflict with of the examination of this measure and to highlight the the principle that operational decisions are best made as significant issues at stake. From the outset, this Government close to the operational level as possible, and would have made clear their opposition to a European public disrupt the operational independence of our law prosecutor’s office, for the reasons I have enunciated enforcement officials and prosecutors. this evening. I do not think that there is any surprise about the steps that have been taken or, because of the Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Has the Republic fundamental nature of the objections that I have highlighted, of Ireland agreed to sign up to Eurojust and the European any fundamental objection to the proposals I am setting public prosecutor’s office, in which case can the Minister out and to our seeking the House’s authorisation in the assure the House that the UK’s reluctance to agree to manner we are tonight. either of them would have no negative impact on the very good working relationships between the Garda The only rationale for the Eurojust proposal seems to Siochana in the Republic of Ireland and the Police be that in order for an EPPO proposal to be brought Service of Northern Ireland? forward the Commission had to take into account the treaty requirement for it to be established “from Eurojust”. James Brokenshire: The hon. Lady makes an important Our law enforcement agencies and prosecutors already point. The Republic of Ireland has said it will not be work closely with Eurojust as it currently operates; this opting into the new Eurojust measure at this point in House will be aware that we are part of the current time because of concerns it has. That underlines that agency. They value the support it provides, but they the UK is not in any way isolated on this matter. There must retain discretion to make decisions at a national are genuine and real concerns about the Eurojust measure, level. Indeed, the Government value the current Eurojust in large measure because of the interconnection with arrangements, which support judicial co-operation the EPPO. Various Parliaments around the EU do not arrangements, helping to co-ordinate serious cross-border support this measure, as shown by the yellow card crime investigations and prosecutions. The case of the having been issued in relation to the EPPO proposal. murders in Annecy in France in early September 2012 demonstrates the value of the current Eurojust Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am grateful arrangements. The UK and French national desks at to the Minister for being so clear in identifying real Eurojust were instrumental in co-ordinating activity problems with both proposals, and I urge him to dig in. that led to a joint investigation team, and in clarifying We do not want these changes and I am glad he is the legal and procedural options in each country. That standing up for us. is why we are seeking to rejoin those arrangements as part of the 2014 opt-out decision. James Brokenshire: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the support he offers for the Government We also take seriously our commitment to tackling position. We have clearly set out genuine and real issues fraud against the EU’s budget, but we believe that the in relation to both these measures challenging some of most effective approach is prevention, not the creation the fundamental principles and aspects of our criminal of a new EU prosecutor. The UK has a zero-tolerance justice system. approach to all fraud, with robust management controls and payment systems in place that seek to prevent We also have concerns about the risks of reducing incidences of EU fraud. We have welcomed recently member states’ influence under the proposal’s revised agreed changes to EU payment procedures and the governance arrangements. For example, the Commission reform of OLAF, the EU’s anti-fraud office, to improve has proposed the creation of an executive board with a the reporting systems and investigations. Once they are very narrow composition, including the Commission fully in place they will support existing and future UK itself, that would, among other things, investigations and prosecutions. “prepare the decisions to be adopted by the College”— the college being the body on which all member state The Commission’s approach with the proposals under national members of Eurojust sit. Moreover, the consideration today is, therefore, unnecessary and, as I Commission has not proposed the creation of a have set out, the content raises substantial concerns. management board along the lines of that which oversees That leads us to conclude that we should not participate Europol, which we think is better suited to effective in the new Eurojust proposal at the start of negotiations. governance of such agencies. In short, the proposal’s We will instead undertake to play an active role in governance arrangements are unsound. negotiations on both Eurojust and the EPPO, seeking amendments to the Eurojust regulation to meet our Fundamentally, we do not consider that the new needs while engaging in discussions on the EPPO to Eurojust proposal is even needed at this time. The protect against any attempt to bypass our non-participation current legislation is still undergoing a peer evaluation through the back door of Eurojust. At the end of which will not complete until next year, and the Commission negotiations, we will thoroughly review the Eurojust has not put forward a convincing case as to why the new final text and actively consider opting in—in consultation proposal is needed. There is not even a specific impact with Parliament—on the basis of that final assessment. assessment from the Commission for its Eurojust proposal. If the final text remained unacceptable and we were Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): not able to participate in it, there would obviously be The Minister mentioned the Lord Advocate of Scotland. risks for our longer-term participation in Eurojust. What discussions has the Minister had with the Scottish Depending on what was finally agreed, an assessment Government and other devolved Administrations? What would need to be made as to whether we could remain did they say to him about the Eurojust proposals? within the old arrangements, subject to the outcome of 877 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 878 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office [James Brokenshire] Given the degree of unity in the House and as we debated it at length last week, I do not intend to dwell the separate work on the 2014 decision, or whether the on the subject of the EPPO. I note what the Minister institutions would seek to eject us from Eurojust and we said about the links between the EPPO and Eurojust, would need to seek alternate co-operation arrangements. but I think that we should particularly consider Eurojust. Given that we do not expect to have sight of the final To recap, Eurojust was established in 2002 and in text much before the middle of 2015, it is hard to 2001 the EU Commission conceived its role as speculate on the final outcome, particularly in the light “facilitating cooperation between Member States and contributing of the recent developments of the yellow card having to proper coordination of prosecutions in the area of serious, and been issued in relation to the measure for the EPPO. organised, crime.” What I can reiterate is that we will work to get the text Its concern is so-called “annex 1” crimes such as drug into a place where it is able to meet our significant trafficking, human trafficking, terrorism and financial concerns. crimes. Those are serious crimes that constantly evolve Sir Alan Beith: Over the considerable period in which and adapt. Increasingly, they cross borders and require the subject can be discussed, can we not seek allies co-operation between different jurisdictions. The importance among our fellow member states from those who recognise of Eurojust to the UK is underlined by the fact that that different legal systems with different distributions there have been 1,459 requests from EU member states of powers within them must be recognised by any for co-operation with Britain through Eurojust since EU-wide arrangement and that the text should therefore 2003, with 190 requests made in 2012 alone. It is therefore be changed? a little disconcerting to see the Government playing the hokey cokey—we are in at the moment, but now we are James Brokenshire: I am grateful to my right hon. opting out although, in principle, we might be back in Friend for his contribution and I know that he was again in the future. consistent on that point during our debate on subsidiarity The primary functions of Eurojust have been and will last week. That view has been expressed by a large continue to be the facilitation of co-operation between number of national Parliaments across the EU and it is member states. Eurojust is required to respond to any now for the Commission to reflect on that message in request from a member state and to facilitate co-operation. the context of subsidiarity and on whether there are That role means that Eurojust must inform member more appropriate ways, as we would argue, to deal with states of investigations and prosecutions that are occurring the issue of combating fraud in the EU. in a different member state but affect the member state; As I have already said, Ireland has announced its assist the competent authorities of the member states in intention not to exercise its opt-in to the new Eurojust the co-ordination of investigations and prosecutions; proposal at the start of negotiations and, of course, provide assistance to improve co-operation between Denmark cannot participate in post-Lisbon justice and member states; co-operate and consult with the European home affairs measures such as this. All member states judicial network in criminal matters; and provide have a shared interest in ensuring that the final proposals operational, technical and financial support to member work with all member states’ criminal justice systems, as states’ cross-border operations and investigations, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed joint investigation teams. (Sir Alan Beith) has said, rather than adopting the The key thing to remember is that Eurojust seeks to Commission’s unworkable one-size-fits-all approach. support member states in conducting investigations, Let me conclude by making clear our commitment to unlike the EPPO, which seeks to undertake the prosecutions the current Eurojust arrangements and our intention to itself. The distinction is vital and the aim of the British negotiate to protect those arrangements, and our view Government should be to continue that element of that as the proposal stands it poses too high a risk to Eurojust. our criminal justice systems to opt in at this stage. Today’s motion is in the national interest and I urge the Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): The House to support it. hon. Lady talked about the hokey cokey of the Government’s position. Can she be clear whether the 7.6 pm Opposition advocate that the UK opt in now, based on Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I the draft regulation as it stands, with all the supra-national thank the Minister for his characteristically thorough transfers of power entailed in it? and detailed explanation of the motion. Tonight the House is discussing the two issues of Diana Johnson: I shall come later in my remarks to European co-operation on justice and home affairs: what I think the Government should have been doing Eurojust and the European public prosecutor’s office. If leading up to this point—making sure that the aspects anyone is feeling a sense of déjà-vu, that is because the that they were concerned about were discussed. I shall House discussed the EPPO this time last week. Indeed, put a series of questions to the Minister about how there was a rare moment of unity when those on both many conversations and dialogues took place with the sides of the House agreed with the Government, the EU to try to get the regulation in a form that was more previous Government and the European Scrutiny acceptable to the Government. Committee that the creation of the EPPO did not meet As Eurojust is based on co-operation, it places obligations the test of subsidiarity and that the UK should therefore on members to co-operate with joint investigations, and opt out. In government, Labour secured an opt-out these obligations are set to increase. I shall come back from the EPPO and in opposition we support the to that. If the Government are serious about tackling Government in continuing to use that opt-out. We have human trafficking, terrorism or financial crime, for also heard that the yellow card has now been issued. example, they need to be serious about working with 879 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 880 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office European partners, but I am concerned that the states will second a national member—a prosecutor, Government seem to be sitting on the sidelines. Their judge or police officer—to work full time at Eurojust. current position appears to be that they would like the Member states will grant national members the power UK to stay in Eurojust as it is now, but they are content to fulfil the task conferred on them by the Eurojust to let everyone else get on with a new Eurojust, which regulation. That means national members, once appointed, they are not part of, but which they hope they might get will bear responsibility for ensuring that their member back into in the future. What we should do is work with states co-operate with Eurojust, including through legal our European partners to get a Eurojust system that assistance, information exchanges, liaising with international works for us. bodies and assisting in joint investigation teams. National members, working with other competent authorities Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): I find from member states, will also: it difficult to take the hon. Lady’s point in respect of “a) order investigative measures; what the Government are doing. Is she implying that we b) authorise and coordinate controlled deliveries in the Member should opt in now, without knowing what will be in the State in accordance with national legislation.” regulation, in order to seek to influence it? The Opposition accept that the appointment of national Diana Johnson: I shall come on to some of the issues members represents a big step up for the role of Eurojust. that the Government should have been considering in We fully recognise that it is not acceptable for the the lead-up to the motion today, but we will not oppose national member to be in a position of oversight over the motion. However, we have questions about how we the UK criminal justice system. I reiterate that we do got to this point and whether there could have been a not support any move to cede prosecuting powers to the proper negotiation with Eurojust that we might have EU, either to the EPPO or through some mechanism of supported. We have never supported the EPPO. That Eurojust. However, we would like to see the Government was very clear in the debate that we had last week. attempt to reconcile those proposals with the current set-up in our criminal justice system. Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Has the hon. The Government appear concerned that, as currently Lady ever tried to have a conversation on these issues formulated, the proposals could allow Eurojust to order with Commissioner Reding? It is very much like talking investigations, or even prosecutions, that duplicate efforts to a brick wall which, if it is moving at all, is moving already under way in the UK. Prosecutions in the UK away from one’s own position. If she had ever had such of course require the consent of the Director of Public a conversation, she would understand the difficulty that Prosecutions, while investigation of most of the crimes the Government might have on occasion. listed in annex 1 are the responsibility of the newly formed National Crime Agency. Perhaps the Minister Diana Johnson: Clearly, I am not in government, so I will explain what work is being done to look at the am not in a position to have such conversations, but it is possibility of drawing the national member from one of important that the Opposition raise questions about those bodies and work on the basis of a memorandum what the Government have been talking to their EU of understanding to ensure that the UK retains sovereignty partners about and whether they have been able to form over our systems while improving cross-border co-operation. any of the alliances that other hon. Members have As has been mentioned, special arrangements will need mentioned to get the best possible way forward. to be put in place for Scotland. Mr Redwood: Do the hon. Lady and her party agree that we do not want more transfers of power over our Lady Hermon: Unfortunately, special arrangements criminal justice system to the EU and that we wish to will also have to be considered for Northern Ireland, protect our common law traditions? because the National Crime Agency’s jurisdiction cannot be extended in full to Northern Ireland as a result of Diana Johnson: As I just said, we are interested in opposition from two parties, Sinn Fein and the Social trying to deal with crimes such as human trafficking, Democratic and Labour party. It is most unfortunate financial fraud and the serious organised crimes that go indeed. across borders, which are not about what is happening in the UK but are Europe-wide and global. We should Diana Johnson: The hon. Lady is right that the National make sure that we have procedures in place to ensure Crime Agency does not cover Northern Ireland. I am co-operation where it is useful. grateful to her for reminding me. The three main aims of the reforms are, as we understand The Commission envisages a special relationship between it, to increase democratic accountability to member the EPPO and Eurojust, as I mentioned at the beginning states’ legislatures; to increase efficiency through more and as the Minister set out. Of course we need to ensure streamlined management structures; and to improve that countries that are not involved in the EPPO—it is EU member states’ effectiveness in the increasingly clear that the UK will not be, and others have already globalised fight against organised crime. All are laudable declared that they will be opting out—can still enjoy the aims with which I am sure we all agree. Equally laudable co-operation of Eurojust without being drawn into the is the aim of increasing our effectiveness in tackling EPPO, which we all agree is a bad idea. cross-border crime. The Government’s current objections The Opposition have less sympathy for some of the can be divided into those that need working through, other concerns that the Minister put forward, particularly which we recognise, and those that, I suggest, appear to his concern about the European convention on human be spurious. rights. It might be helpful if he explained that a little The major change, and the one that we recognise more. Our major concern remains that the Government poses the biggest challenge, is the appointment of the seem prepared to allow the rest of Europe to go along national member. Under the proposed reform, member with these matters without us being at the table. 881 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 882 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): With respect, the hon. On 18 October 2012, the Commission consulted member Lady has still not answered the question that my hon. state experts and others about a possible reform of Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Eurojust. According to the Commission: Reckless) asked: does she advocate opting in now, and “The meeting generally supported improving Eurojust’s governance therefore being locked in? structure and efficiency.” What did the UK representatives say at that meeting? Diana Johnson: I think that I made it very clear to the The Commission then instigated a consultation on the hon. Gentleman that we will not be opposing the motion strengthening of Eurojust. What issues did the Government this evening, but we have questions on what the Government raise? have been doing up to now to ensure that this is not the only avenue open to them, and whether we might have What improvements to Eurojust have the Government been able to get some agreement before we ended up been pushing for? We all support more effective co-operation where we are today. Our major concern remains that the on cross-border action against serious crime and it Government seem to have been prepared to allow the would be helpful to know what work the UK Government rest of Europe to go along without us, and instead of have been doing to lead that agenda at European level. working for reforms that protect the rights of the UK It would be good to see the UK setting the agenda, as they are allowing the rest of the European Union to set was the case under the previous Government, rather up an agreement that works for it and then saying, than watching what happens and complaining when it “We’ll make a decision later.” does not reflect the specific interests of the UK. I have a few questions I would like the Minister to Finally, on the justice and home affairs opt-out in respond to, either in his winding-up speech or in writing. general, the Government have found time tonight, as What work is being done to look at how a national they did last week, for a debate on the Floor of the member could be appointed for the UK? Is there any House, which is to be welcomed. On both occasions, the mileage in that proposal? Will the Minister confirm the Government have raised the issue of the opt-out, which timetable? According to the European Scrutiny Committee, is widely supported with regard to the EPPO, but other, the deadline is 21 November, but the Minister has more controversial areas of it also warrant proper suggested, both in written evidence to the Committee discussion. As the Minister has said, we are waiting for and in the House, that the Government will wait until at various Select Committees to publish reports. Will he least 2014, possibly later. Does the deadline of 21 November reiterate the Government’s assurances that time will be still stand? made available for a full debate on those reports on the Floor of the House? Will the Minister clearly confirm the Government’s position on the current Eurojust arrangements? It is a little disconcerting that the motion does not contain a 7.24 pm commitment to maintain the current arrangements Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I agree and agreements, even though the Home Secretary indicated with the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North to the Home Affairs Committee that that is the (Diana Johnson) on one point and disagree with her Government’s desired outcome. Is that correct? on another. I agree that there should be a debate on the Floor of the House when the three Select James Brokenshire: I am happy to clarify that the Committees publish their reports. They will provide existing Eurojust measure was on the list of 35 measures important guidance to the Government in their that we would seek to opt back into following the negotiations. Where I disagree with her is that it is not exercise of our block opt-out. Obviously, they are being sufficient for her to say, “Even if it were true, I would analysed by the relevant Select Committees, so we will not have started from here.” The question still has to await their determination before taking further action. be asked whether the Labour party would, if it had the opportunity, opt in to the Eurojust proposal or not. Diana Johnson: I am grateful to the Minister for that She conspicuously failed to answer that question, except clarification. in a way that suggested that she had been given a When did the Government actually get around to narrow mandate by somebody in authority in the Labour raising concerns about the structure of Eurojust and party. the EPPO at EU level? Those concerns are set out in a I start from the proposition that Eurojust is essential memorandum dated 7 August 2013, but surely the and that the European public prosecutor most certainly Government’s efforts to secure a better outcome began is not. For the one to get in the way of the other is before that. The Government had various chances to harmful. Anyone who looked at the documentation for discuss Eurojust’s future with the Commission, so did this debate and the excellent work of the European they raise those concerns? Scrutiny Committee would readily concede that there For example, a strategic seminar entitled, “Eurojust are many complexities to this matter. However, at its and the Lisbon treaty: Toward more effective action”, heart, there is a simple issue, which is that whereas was held in Bruges in September 2010. Did the Government cross-border crime requires an effective apparatus that raise then any of the concerns that they are raising now? takes advantage of our being in the European Union—we There was another opportunity to discuss Eurojust’s want to maintain those arrangements and it would be future at an event marking its 10th anniversary at the greatly contrary to Britain’s interests not to be part of European Council in February 2012. A Eurojust and them—the creation of the European public prosecutor Academy of European Law conference called “Ten is neither necessary nor, in the opinion of many of us, years of Eurojust: Operational Achievements and Future even desirable. That it should stand in the way of Challenges” was held at The Hague in November 2012. British participation and the participation of other Were the concerns raised then? countries in Eurojust is seriously harmful. 883 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 884 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office There are two ways in which the situation that we are 7.29 pm confronted with creates difficulties for any British Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): This Government, of whatever party political composition. motion must be considered in the context of the EU’s The first is that the proposals on the European public wider ambitions for a single policy on justice and home prosecutor and on Eurojust are interlocking. The draft affairs. As mentioned earlier, the EU Justice Commissioner directive on Eurojust incorporates the European public and vice-president, Viviane Reding, has a huge stake in prosecutor so extensively that it makes the position of a this matter, and in a far-reaching speech last month she state that wants one and not the other very difficult. spoke about the considerable momentum towards The second is that the mandatory powers that are developing a pan-European criminal code and institutions, given to national members of Eurojust fly in the face of replete with a European justice Minister—I dare say Ms arrangements in the United Kingdom. Of course, the Reding has a candidate in mind—and with detailed arrangements throughout the United Kingdom are not monitoring and sanctioning powers at Commission level. uniform. The arrangements in England, Wales and Those include new powers to uphold EU fundamental Northern Ireland are quite different from those in Scotland. rights—a sort of triplication of the human rights legal In Scotland, the Lord Advocate and the procurator framework, bearing in mind Strasbourg’s role in the fiscal can direct investigations. There is a clear separation Human Rights Act 1998 and UK jurisdiction, and an between investigation and prosecution in England, expanded role for the European Court of Justice. That Wales and Northern Ireland. Those differences need to is the clear ambition within the Commission and the be respected. If we can respect those differences in the broader EU. With that in mind, this is also a critical United Kingdom, surely the European Union can respect juncture for Britain. We remain poised to exercise our the fact that the same objectives can be achieved by crime and policing opt-out under the Lisbon treaty. It is different legal systems. therefore the right moment—an important crossroads, perhaps—to think strategically about Britain’s criminal Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the right justice co-operation in the EU. hon. Gentleman share the concern of many in this On the specifics of the motion, I fully support the House, including the Minister, over the data that are Government’s intention not to be part of the European collected by the Commission, which show that the public prosecutor’s office. That initiative is obviously— conviction rate in the UK is 23%, when in reality it is transparently—a preliminary stepping stone towards a about 75%? The data that the Commission collects much more far-reaching EU prosecutor, and it must be centrally go against what we are trying to do. nipped in the bud. Although it is limited, at least on the surface, to countering fraud against the EU, under current terms the EPPO would take powers away from Sir Alan Beith: There are many dangers in playing Eurojust. It would have the power to compel UK police with those statistics. Not least, the objective of a to hand over evidence, and to order UK prosecutors to 100% conviction rate seems to undervalue the ability of take action. Through its relationship with Eurojust, it the court to determine that evidence is not sufficient to could place wider burdens of co-operation on member support conviction and punishment. We expect our states. The scope of those obligations will, of course, be courts to throw out cases that do not have a sound decided by the Commission, and ultimately by the evidential basis. The whole statistical exercise is potentially European Court. As the Minister has said, we must stay dangerous and misleading. out of such a measure. I welcome the Government’s I speak for the Liberal Democrats, rather than for the decision and the Minister’s clarity of purpose and position. Justice Committee, because, oddly enough, this is a We ought to emphasise the positive and we should home affairs power rather than a justice power, and preserve and retain our national criminal justice system. there is no doubt that we want to be in Eurojust. We do That system is steeped in a very different tradition from not want Eurojust to be complicated by the wholly the civil, continental tradition, and in a different set of different proposal for a European public prosecutor, values. As hon. Members have already said, it is also and we do not want Britain’s participation to be impaired steeped in a different functional division of law enforcement in any way. powers that enshrines a uniquely British conception of The motion is carefully worded. It asserts that justice—one that is firm but fair. “the UK should not opt in to the draft Regulation on the The Eurojust regulation is a more finely balanced Eurojust at this time and should conduct a thorough review of the question. I worked in The Hague and with Eurojust, final agreed text to inform active consideration of opting into the which has done important work in recent years serving Eurojust Regulation, post adoption”. as a college of co-operating national prosecutors. Personally, That wording is most ingeniously crafted. What I want as the Minister has said, I would prefer it to have it to mean is that we will make substantial efforts to continued down that route and in its current form, but ensure that we get a Eurojust regulation that meets our the new regulation gives the Commission a seat on a needs and those of a number of other member states new executive board and places a duty on Eurojust to that share our concerns and that can be allies in putting forge a special relationship with the EPPO. It also this matter right, so that there can be no doubt about imposes additional stronger duties of information sharing our future co-operation in these arrangements, which on member states, including the UK if it signs up. greatly assist us in dealing with cross-border crime and The EU Select Committee has highlighted the new catching up with fleeing criminals who dodge around powers given to representatives at Eurojust to bypass the nations of Europe. That is of immense importance national authorities in order to process requests for to us. I look forward to the Government’s active involvement sharing information or evidence, and I pay tribute to its in trying to get the Eurojust proposal right so that we excellent work. Again, all that would be interpreted and can opt in to it in due course. enforced by the Commission and the European Court, 885 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 886 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office [Mr Dominic Raab] operationally as trust and confidence develop, but that we cannot accept any further transfers of authority or while increasing our contribution to the EU budget. I control to the supranational level. note that the Minister and the Government share those Mark Reckless: When my hon. Friend was a witness concerns and do not intend to opt in at this time. in the Home Affairs Committee, he recommended that, However, they leave open the prospect of “active in respect of Europol, we might want to adopt the consideration” of the case for opting in when the final Frontex model. Does he believe that that could be an text is agreed. appropriate model for Eurojust? The Opposition position on this matter is totally hopeless. They recognise the defects in the regulation Mr Raab: My hon. Friend is, as ever, spot on. Each and accept the motion that the Government have put area is fundamentally functionally different, but Frontex before the House. They know the Government are shows that countries do not have to be formal members actively resisting the supranational elements and creeping that have signed up in a formal way to be active operational supranational character that some seek to impose on partners. We have heard that from the head of Frontex. Eurojust, yet they criticise the Government for not It is at least a starting point for evolving our relationship being in the negotiation now. Such negotiation would, with Eurojust and Europol. If, as I suspect, others of course, mean that we were irreversibly tied in to the within the Commission and member states want to go new regime if it cannot be changed. That is utterly down the federalising route, that option should be untenable and the kind of thing one hears only from the clearly discussed now. We should be on the front foot, Opposition. and not ashamed or beguiled from talking about it. If hon. Members want to be churlish, they might We need to make it clear that we cannot accept any question why the Government are currently rightly further transfers of authority, or the salami-slicing of critical of the proposals, yet rather more enthusiastic national democratic authority—that is what we are about them for the future. I am not sure why that is, but seeing in the attempts to upgrade Eurojust and Europol. I will limit myself to seeking confirmation from the Will there ever be a better moment to have that candid Minister that the House will have an opportunity to but constructive conversation with our EU partners? I debate and vote in advance of any later decision. doubt it. Government Members have a commitment to renegotiate our relationship with the EU and to put the renegotiated deal to the British people in a referendum. James Brokenshire: I am happy to assure my hon. We know that the British people care. According to a Friend that, if there were a subsequent recommendation ComRes poll for Open Europe last year, repatriating to opt back in on the final approved text, I would UK control over crime and policing ranks fourth on the envisage the process we are going through tonight being public’s list of priorities for renegotiation. That is very replicated. I can confirm to him that we are keeping high compared with the other priorities surveyed. We the option open to opt back in at that later stage also know that there is significant scepticism among the precisely for the operational reasons to which he wider public at large on whether any politicians keep alludes—the benefits of Eurojust as it is currently their promises on Europe. constructed. The Labour party is responsible for that haemorrhaging of trust. The Government have a genuine chance to Mr Raab: I thank the Minister for setting out the rebuild public trust. That ought to start with the decisions Government’s position with admirable clarity. we are taking now and over the next six months on Given that we are discussing the substance of Eurojust crime and policing, underscored by a two-pronged strategic and its evolution, I want to take this opportunity to ask approach to our future JHA relationship with the EU—one more broadly what strategic thinking has been done on that pledges the full operational co-operation of a strategic our wider future justice and home affairs relationship. ally but defends the return of full democratic control, What consultations has the UK had with the Commission which the British people want and expect. and other member states on renegotiating Britain’s wider relationship with the EU in that critical area? It is right 7.39 pm to assess each regulation or measure case by case, on its Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): It is a pleasure individual merits and substance, in a sober and pragmatic to speak in this debate and to follow my hon. Friend the way—the Minister has done that cogently this evening—but, Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). His arguments at the same time, we need to look to the bigger picture were well put and I completely agree with them. I will and the longer-term horizon. try not to copy him too much, but he nailed the point I worry that we will drift into a disjointed, albeit that this measure is completely tied to the European bespoke, relationship with Eurojust and the wider JHA public prosecutor’s office. It is a building block of it, framework almost by default, annoying our European and a morphing of what Eurojust was originally set up partners without satisfying our national interest, risking to do, taking it much further than any of us in this the worst of all worlds. Would it not be better to grasp House would like. the nettle and spell out proactively, on the front foot, In last week’s debate, we did not get to the issue of what strategic JHA relationship we want, and why that what exactly the European public prosecutor’s office is, will serve the EU’s interest as well as the British national probably because the Minister asked us not to stray into interest? In my view, that means a British commitment that territory. According to the European Union, the to be a good operational partner, with all the resources, European public prosecutor’s office will be a know-how and expertise we bring to the game, but “prosecution office of the European Union with exclusive competence without sacrificing democratic control over such a sensitive for investigating, prosecuting and bringing to judgment crimes area of national policy. It means saying to our European against the EU budget.” friends that our co-operation within Eurojust will improve Those last few words are the most important. 887 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 888 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office For the best part of two decades, the European further legislation including the creation of an EPPO. The Commission Commission’s budget has not received a positive statement refers to this pre-emptive approach to policy-making and legislative of assurance from the European Court of Auditors. A reform somewhat euphemistically as ‘step-by-step’ when it seems lot of money is wasted in maladministration, but a large more like leaps and bounds.” sum also disappears through fraud, which has caused This is a case of leaps and bounds. We would have to consternation in some circles for some time. People change a number of things that we hold dear in our have, in the past, blown the whistle on areas where common law system. We have no arrest without evidence. money has been filtered away illegally. The problem The European public prosecutor will operate under a goes back to before 1999. Those of us who were involved system of corpus juris, so that one can be arrested in European affairs back then will remember that the without evidence. We do not hold suspects for more Jacques Santer Commission fell in 1999 because of a than a fixed and limited time unless charges are presented scandal involving a failure to chase down fraud, and the in open court. Under corpus juris, a person can be held ignoring of whistleblowers and internal fraud. When indefinitely. In our system, we believe we have the right the Commission fell, there was a marked panic in to face one’s accuser and see evidence. Under corpus European circles and a committee of independent experts juris, the accuser may be anonymous and no right for was set up. That reported in March 1999 and again in the accused to see the evidence exists. We like to be tried September 1999 after the European elections of that year. by lay magistrates in most cases, have the right to trial of a jury of one’s peers and have an adversarial model. Before 1999, there was an anti-fraud organisation in That is not the case under corpus juris, where a person the European Commission called UCLAF, which after is tried by professional judges, there is no right to trial 1999 morphed into a similar anti-fraud organisation by jury and there is an inquisitorial model. We like an called OLAF. Its job was to chase down fraud, both open court. It is a closed court under corpus juris. We internal and external, and to protect the financial interests like the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. of communities in and across the European Union. It was a simple transfer of powers from UCLAF to OLAF— Sir Alan Beith: The phrase corpus juris is rather alas, several members of staff also made the transfer—but misleading—all it means is “body of law”. The hon. OLAF did not really succeed in doing its job of chasing Gentleman is right to point out that our system is fraud for some time. Indeed, it tended to chase different and provides safeguards in a different way, but whistleblowers before it actually chased fraudsters who it would be foolish if we were to look at the rest of chose to defraud the European Union. Europe and say that they do not have any rights because All the time, the fraud figures for the European their system of enshrining them is different to ours. Union kept climbing. Some say it was as high as ¤500 million, although some would say it was even Chris Heaton-Harris: I fully accept that fact. I am more. The question for this debate is why the big leap just trying to outline what this big change would mean from having an anti-fraud office, which already has the when, according to the European Commission’s figures, powers to do the job within the context of the existing it is just—it is a big sum—meant to protect ¤500 million- treaties, to something that would take a huge amount of worth of fraud against the EU budget. Is this a powers away from member states? Why the huge power- proportionate change that we would like to see? I would grab? argue that it is not. Alongside the proposal for a European public Various people have come forward with individual prosecutor’s office, the Commission has also published cases regarding the difference between how the system a communication on its ideas for OLAF in the future. It operates now and how it would operate under a European plans to table legislative proposals to alter the OLAF public prosecutor. In one case, OLAF transferred regulation in due course. As it happens, the Council and information to the German and Bulgarian authorities the European Parliament have only just agreed a revision relating to German and Bulgarian nationals who to the 1999 OLAF regulation, which has been more allegedly worked to defraud an EU agricultural and than 10 years in the making. A key aim of that is to rural development fund scheme. Whereas the German strengthen OLAF, the anti-fraud office of the European proceedings led to a conviction, the proceedings in Union, and its investigative capabilities, and also to Bulgaria ended in acquittal—the current system led to provide greater safeguards for those being investigated. different results in a cross-border case. The argument The Commission’s proposals for the European public for a European public prosecutor is that it would have prosecutor’s office, however, would entail OLAF losing made a difference by ensuring consistency of investigation the powers to conduct investigations into fraud against and prosecution in those countries, changing the nature the EU budget and being limited to investigations on of prosecution within a member state. other irregularities involving EU funds and misconduct Another example relates to cigarette smuggling from or crimes committed by EU personnel that do not have the Czech Republic into Germany. The German criminal a financial impact. It is gutting powers, which the court used telephone tapping records obtained by the European public prosecutor would use, from an existing Czech police as evidence to convict the suspect. Although body, because it wants an EPP with more powers. It is that evidence was obtained lawfully according to Czech the precursor to this area of criminal justice that my law, the defence lawyer argued that without a court hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton talked order authorising the telephone tapping, the evidence about. The European Scrutiny Committee, of which I was inadmissible in the German court. It comes to a am a member, noted the proposal to amend OLAF certain point when one wonders whether a supranational regulation and concluded: body such as the European public prosecutor could ask “We are disappointed to see that so soon after reform of for the phone tapping of a British national on a matter OLAF’s regulatory framework has been agreed, the Commission, that might not be deemed worthy of phone tapping in without waiting to see the impact of that reform, is suggesting the UK. 889 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 890 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office [Chris Heaton-Harris] trafficking in endangered animal species; illicit trafficking in endangered plant species and varieties; environmental This is a big step forward and we should note that it is crime; ship-source pollution; crime connected with nuclear all about a power grab from the European Commission, and radioactive substances; and genocide, crimes against or a power grab from Viviane Reding, the European humanity and war crimes. While some of those are Commissioner for Justice. We should be very wary of undoubtedly extremely serious and have cross-border where she goes from here. The hon. Member for Kingston connotations, others are essentially national crimes that upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) asked what discussions are most unlikely to have any international connotations. could be had, but having discussions with Viviane Reding Tiresome though it might be, if one’s car radio is stolen, can be very difficult, because she is completely focused it is hard to see how that motor crime would have a on delivering an area of criminal justice for the EU. It is particular effect on the good people of Luxembourg. a ridiculous idea that cannot work, but were it to work, The list goes on, because the proposed regulation it would mean a complete change in how we do law in coming from the EU allows Eurojust to cover related this country, and one that most of us in this place would criminal offences, so it has the ability to go further than fight to the death. this already extensive list. I would argue that the Eurojust proposal contains a very wide set of competences and 7.50 pm that Eurojust has significant power of its own. It can Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): It is exercise its tasks at the request of the competent authorities a pleasure to follow my hon. Friends the Members for of member states or, crucially, on its own initiative; it Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) and for Esher and does not require a member state to intervene to set the Walton (Mr Raab), with whom I am in almost entire wheels in motion that would lead to investigations agreement. taking place. As a brief aside, if the House will indulge me, I think The Commission sets out in its document that competent one can take back the divergence between our legal national authorities shall respond without undue delay system and that of the continent to the Fourth Lateran to Eurojust’s requests and opinions made under article Council and Innocent III’s view that it was wrong for 4, which sets out the basis on which they may make priests to stand and bless trial by combat. From that, such requests. What is being proposed will give Eurojust our different systems developed. a very wide set of competences and an ability to demand responses. I am well aware that the Government’s concern On the substance of the documents in front of us, the over the directive is that there may be orders coming key is that the Lisbon treaty provided that a European from member states to direct investigations in the UK public prosecutor’s office should be developed from and that they believe that that would be unsatisfactory. Eurojust, which article 86(1) stated could go ahead by Eurojust itself does not get that direct power, but it is enhanced co-operation. In coming forward with these not very far from it, because national authorities have proposals, therefore, the Commission is starting from a to respond without undue delay. Although they can cite very good treaty base, from its point of view. Fortunately, operational reasons of an unspecified kind as to why however, we have an equally good treaty base for rejecting they will not provide co-operation, that will be justiciable it—our ability to opt in or not. I raise the flag of by the Court of Justice of the European Union. That concern about what this whole process is about, and I seems to me to be a very major extension of the competence urge the Government, regardless of the negotiations, of the European Union into the criminal justice field. not to opt in at the end of them, because it is all about creating a single form of justice within the EU, as my On the composition of Eurojust—I may have hon. Friend the Member for Daventry said. misunderstood this—it is surprising that it is not composed according to the ordinary rules of qualified majority The degree of competence being created for Eurojust voting, but by simple majority of the members of the is extremely wide and is set out in annex 1 of the college. The members of the college will be one documents before us, which lists the forms of serious representative of each member state, each of whom will crime that Eurojust is competent to deal with in accordance have, according to article 10, a single vote. It would with article 3(1). I will read the list out, as that has not mean that the UK, if we were to opt in to this set of yet been done, because it is important to understand proposals, could be outvoted without even having the how all-encompassing the list is: organised crime; terrorism; benefit of the extra weighting to our vote. The college is drug trafficking; money laundering; corruption; crime set up to maximise the power of the centre against the against the financial interests of the union; murder, countries. The proposals give enormously wide control grievous bodily injury, kidnapping, illegal restraint and to Eurojust even if the Government’s queries on direct hostage taking; sexual abuse and sexual exploitation of orders from other members and the relationship with women and children, child pornography and solicitation the European public prosecutor’s office are answered. of children for sexual purposes; racism and xenophobia; That is a fundamental step in reversing—you will be organised robbery; motor vehicle crime; swindling and horrified to hear, Madam Deputy Speaker— the differences fraud; racketeering and extortion; counterfeiting and that developed in 1215 with the Fourth Lateran Council. product piracy; forgery of administrative documents and trafficking therein; forgery of money and means of 7.56 pm payment; computer crime; insider dealing and financial market manipulation; illegal immigrant smuggling; James Brokenshire: We have had a full and lively trafficking in human beings; illicit trade in human organs debate, characterised in customary fashion by the and tissue; illicit trafficking in hormonal substances contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for North and other growth promoters; illicit trafficking in cultural East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). He, like others, set goods, including antiquities and works of art; illicit out a number of the significant concerns that are held trafficking in arms, ammunition and explosives; illicit not only by the Government, but by Members across 891 Eurojust and the European Public 29 OCTOBER 2013 Eurojust and the European Public 892 Prosecutor’s Office Prosecutor’s Office the House about the Commission’s proposals for a about how supranational organisations cut across the European public prosecutor’s office and the construction fundamental building blocks in our criminal justice of Eurojust. system. That is why it is right that, if the House approves This country derives real benefits from its participation the motion tonight, we will not be opting in to the in the current Eurojust, which is about practical measures. co-operation; from collaboration; and from the number We note that the various Committees will be publishing of cases that have been assisted by the establishment of their reports on the block opt-out, and we look forward joint investigation teams. But that does not mean that to receiving them. The Government have committed to we should now opt in to a new measure that is clearly so holding a further debate in the House on the final fundamentally flawed because of the intrinsic link to proposals for opting back in, in respect of the 2014 the European public prosecutor’s office. Some of these block opt-out. Further work is taking place on the significant issues have been highlighted in the impact balance of competences, and it will continue. My hon. they would have on our criminal justice system. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton talked about The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North where competence should lie, and that question is informed (Diana Johnson) was critical of the system of the block by the ongoing work. We are taking evidence to inform opt-out and of having to opt out and then opt in before the broader debate, but that should be seen as distinct dealing with new EU measures such as those we are from the exercise of the Government’s treaty right in debating this evening. This was precisely the structure respect of the 2014 decision. that her Government negotiated. If she is unhappy with My hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris this system, she needs to look to herself and to her hon. Heaton-Harris) mentioned the position of OLAF, the Friends who were party to the construction of the European fraud office. It is unfortunate that we have mechanism. only recently seen proposals on the practical use of that The hon. Lady highlighted and questioned the date office, but we believe that certain practical steps should of 21 November. I can say very simply that that is the be pursued as a result of their recent publication. My latest date on which the UK would be able to exercise its hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset opt in. It is three months from the publication of the (Jacob Rees-Mogg) mentioned issues of competence, last language version of the relevant regulation, which and the need for us to look carefully at any final agreed is the time period referred to. She also highlighted some text that emerges in relation to Eurojust. concerns about fundamental rights. I draw her attention Given the yellow card that has been issued in relation to the explanatory memorandum, which was signed by to the European public prosecutor’s office, and the the Minister for Immigration on 7 August and sets out strong message that has been sent by a number of the fundamental rights analysis. That will explain to her member states’ Parliaments in respect of this proposal, the issues she highlighted. the Commission will need to reflect on this matter very Questions have been raised about the national member. carefully. It will also need to think about the Eurojust Indeed, the hon. Lady asked whether we should negotiate proposal, because of the interrelationship between the a better position for the national member, and whether two. We will keep the House and the Select Committees the Government would express their concern in respect updated as this matter progresses, but I very much hope of Eurojust and the European public prosecutor’s office. that, in the light of the clear message from hon. Members She mentioned the 10th anniversary of Eurojust. I was tonight, the House will support the motion. there and made those very points at that time. Indeed, Question put and agreed to. one of the first things that I said at the first Justice and Resolved, Home Affairs Council I attended following the election of this Government was that we would not participate That this House takes note of European Union Documents No. 12566/13, a draft Regulation on the European Union Agency in the European public prosecutor’s office. I can therefore for Criminal Justice Co-operation (Eurojust), and No. 12558/13 assure her that we have consistently made our views and Addenda 1 and 2, a draft Regulation on the establishment of plain on the lack of a need for a European public a European Public Prosecutor’s Office (EPPO); agrees with the prosecutor’s office. We believe that there are more practical Government that the UK should not opt in to the draft Regulation ways of dealing with these issues. on the Eurojust at this time and should conduct a thorough review of the final agreed text to inform active consideration of The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed opting into the Eurojust Regulation, post adoption, in consultation (Sir Alan Beith) talked about the separation of powers. with Parliament; and further agrees with the Government that the That is intrinsic to the question. My hon. Friend the UK should not participate in the establishment of any European Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) made a point Public Prosecutor’s Office. 893 29 OCTOBER 2013 894

Citizenship (Armed Forces) Bill (Ways and Crystal Palace Park Means) Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Motion made, and Question proposed, do now adjourn.—(Mr Gyimah.) That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Citizenship 8.5 pm (Armed Forces) Bill, it is expedient to authorise: Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): I am (1) the charging of fees in connection with applications for most grateful for this opportunity, particularly today. naturalisation as a British citizen made by members or former Lewisham is only part of my constituency these days, members of the armed forces; and but I know from my hon. Friend the Member for (2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Mr Harper.) Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) that the Secretary of State for Health has been found by the Court of Appeal 8.3 pm to have acted entirely improperly and illegally in seeking to close Lewisham hospital. I add that in passing; it is Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): This is a obviously not the main substance of my remarks this straightforward proposal. Along with the residence evening, and I do not expect the Minister to respond, requirements for naturalisation comes the process of but I doubt whether we have heard the last of that. charging fees. It is only right that everyone in the United This debate is about “the Crystal Palace”. One of the Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should business papers mentioned “Crystal Palace”, and I was have to pay those fees, and members of Her Majesty’s stopped by a constituent in Sainsbury in Sydenham armed forces or the diplomatic service overseas should who told me, “I see you have a debate on Crystal Palace also have to pay them. This measure concludes the price next week; they are in terrible trouble, and I reckon they issue, and forms the last piece of the Citizenship (Armed are going to get relegated.” This debate is not about Forces) Bill. Crystal Palace football club, although I am a long-time Question put and agreed to. supporter and one-time season ticket holder. Neither is this debate about the original Crystal Palace club, which Business without Debate was one of the founder members of the Football Association, which celebrated its 150th anniversary just last Saturday. It is the oldest and original football DELEGATED LEGISATION association in the world. It was then an amateur club, which went out of business in 1861; it was based in what Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing we now know as Crystal Palace. Order No. 118(6)), This debate is about “the Crystal Palace”, and perhaps I should have started the “the” with a capital letter in PENSIONS my request for this debate. As everybody knows from a That the draft Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation long way back, this is one of the prime sites and Scheme) (Consequential Provisions: Primary Legislation) (Northern locations for sporting excellence—not just in London, Ireland) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 27 June, but in this country. The first FA cup finals were held at be approved.—(Mr Gyimah.) Crystal Palace and the national sports stadium was Question agreed to. built there. It got its name from the relocation of the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing original building at Hyde park in the Great Exhibition Order No. 118(6)), of 1851. The building that was placed on the Sydenham hill side of what was then called Penge common was larger than the original that Joseph Paxton—later Sir Joseph ENTERPRISE Paxton—designed for Hyde park. The pictures make That the draft Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (Designation that clear. The construction in Hyde park was rather of the UK Green Investment Bank) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 17 July, be approved.—(Mr Gyimah.) mundane; it looked almost like an out-of-town shopping centre compared with the magnificent structure built on Madam Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Sydenham hill side of Penge common. the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 30 October (Standing Order No. 41A). Sydenham hill is the highest point in Greater London, although when it was built and opened in 1854 by Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Queen Victoria, there was no such thing as Greater Order No. 118(6)), London. The fact that it is the highest point in the whole area explains why, when it burned down on CAPITAL GAINS TAX 30 November 1936, the fire was alleged to have been That the draft Unauthorised Unit Trusts (Tax) Regulations seen—depending on which account one reads and from 2013, which were laid before this House on 12 September, be where one was looking—from either five, six, seven or approved.—(Mr Gyimah.) eight counties. Question agreed to. It is undeniable that the relocation of the Crystal Palace to that part of south-east London was instrumental in the development of the whole area, including Forest BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Hill, Sydenham, Penge and Norwood South, Upper Ordered, and West, most of which are in my constituency. However, not only did the Crystal Palace arrive, but two separate That, at the sitting on Thursday 7 November, notwithstanding sub-paragraph (2)(c) of Standing Order No. 14, the business railway stations arrived with it to accommodate the determined by the Backbench Business Committee may continue number of visitors who were expected. I shall return to until three o’clock, and shall then lapse if not previously concluded.— that point later if I have time, in order to illustrate the (Mr Gyimah.) concerns of today’s population. 895 Crystal Palace Park29 OCTOBER 2013 Crystal Palace Park 896

I suppose that the ultimate success of the presence of was approved by Bromley council. It was called in by the Crystal Palace in that part of south-east London is the then Secretary of State, and there was an inquiry represented by the fact that the area is now known as which was eventually resolved in favour of the plan. Crystal Palace. One of my constituents once remarked Although it was challenged in the High Court in 2011, to me on how convenient it was that they had managed the challenge was dismissed in 2012 and all appeals to move the Crystal Palace to a place called Crystal were dismissed in April this year. In July this year, leaks Palace. I had to explain that it was actually the other or releases—we can call them what we like, but these way round. things never happen accidentally—were made about a The Crystal Palace moved to the area in 1854, and scheme involving the Mayor of London, the London since the fire in 1936 it has undergone a number of borough of Bromley and the ZhongRong Group. I am changes of identity. The motor-racing circuit was very sure not many people in Lewisham West and Penge or well used and highly thought of until the High Court this House have heard of the group. It has come forward ruled that, even back then, it was too much for local with proposals to rebuild—or replicate, perhaps—the people. The motor racing died out in the early 1960s, original Crystal Palace and to restore the gardens to the although, as one who grew up in the area, I remember it original standard that Sir Joseph Paxton had in mind clearly. Most famously, there was the Concert Bowl. when he finished the relocation back in 1854. That is an During my dissolute youth, I attempted to go there to exciting proposal but it runs up against the Bromley see Pink Floyd, but I could not get a ticket. I had to stay London Borough Council (Crystal Palace) Act 1990, outside in Crystal Palace Park road and listen to the which as things stand forbids any such development. concert there. On the strength of that experience, I went Mr Ni Zhaoxing—I have never met him, but he seems out and bought a copy of “Atom Heart Mother”—but a perfectly reasonable chap; I will refer to him as that is rather by the by. Mr Ni—has an extravagant and vaulting ambition probably We then fast-forward to the days when the Greater worthy of Sir Joseph Paxton himself and all the others London council had the stewardship of the park and who were involved, such as Isambard Kingdom Brunel, the site. Not much happened then. I suppose that the who designed the water towers at the original Crystal most instrumental event of recent years took place in Palace at Sydenham hill. Mr Ni’s ambition may well 1986, when the GLC was abolished and the site was reflect the ambitious, extravagant and visionary image handed to Bromley council. At the time, I was a member of people at the height of British Victorian industrial of the council of the London borough of Lewisham. power. Crystal Palace is often exemplified as an area of Greater I went to the launch of the scheme earlier this month, London that has few parallels, in that five boroughs and the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, was there, have boundaries there within a space of 200 yards: playing his normal shy and retiring role, and saying he Lewisham, Southwark, Lambeth, Croydon and Bromley, would be happy to help if he possibly could, but he which is where the Crystal Palace park is now. must not be dragged too much into it. That is strange, As everyone will know, the abolition of the GLC was because other boroughs in our part of south-east London seen as a highly political issue by those on both sides of actually wanted Crystal Palace park to remain the the argument. We suggested, along with our colleagues responsibility of what became the Greater London in Southwark, Lambeth and Croydon, that the park authority. That was resisted by the Government before should be transferred to a trust encompassing all five 1997, but now we have the Mayor of London involving boroughs. It is not just a local park; it has a much himself along with the London borough of Bromley. greater resonance and a much greater significance than I should add a brief word about the leader of the that. However, our proposal was resisted, and the park London borough of Bromley, Councillor Stephen Carr. was handed lock, stock and barrel to Bromley council. He kindly invited me to the recent briefings—not the In 1989, Bromley came up with a scheme for the ones back in the summer—including the press launch building of a hotel, a restaurant, shops and a pub. That on Thursday 3 October. An advisory board has been set culminated in the passing by the House of Commons of up to steer the project forward, although these are very the Bromley London Borough Council (Crystal Palace) early days. The board will include Councillor Stephen Act 1990, which limits development on the site. It Carr, Hank Dittmar, who is a special adviser to the consists extensively of metropolitan open land, so Prince of Wales—I presume on environmental matters— development on it without specific legal approval would Sir Tim Smit, deputy director of Eden Regeneration be extremely difficult, and that it why the current proposals and co-founder of the Eden Project, which has a huge present problems for a number of people. national reputation, and Sir John Sorrell CBE, chairman In 1995, Bromley council established a working group of the London design festival and UK Trade & Investment to revitalise the sports centre. In the late 1990s there was business ambassador. All are clearly worthy people, but a bid for funds from the single regeneration budget, what is missing from the group and the consultation is principally involving a leisure facility, a multiplex cinema. anybody local to Crystal Palace and the surrounding The bid collapsed. The Government called the plan in, area. The $64,000 question—perhaps now the $1 million and then let it go. As some Members may recall, in 1999 question—is this: is this good or is this bad? People Swampy and his pals climbed trees and went underground need to know what is in the best interests of the area in an attempt to prevent the clearing of the site for the and the park, because this may be the one and only development, which was eventually dropped in 2000. opportunity to take a major decision for the future. The multiplex proposal was scrapped. Let me quote from the Bromley borough council The London Development Agency then launched a executive meeting of 16 October. It is safe to do so as formal consultation, and appointed master planners for this quote is from the public part of the proceedings; I the park and its environs. The master plan was submitted have the confidential part as well, but I will not be and went through various processes until 2008, when it quoting from that. It states: 897 Crystal Palace Park29 OCTOBER 2013 Crystal Palace Park 898

[Jim Dowd] everything possible will be done to improve transport links. This scheme cannot work without considerable “Ever since the 1936 fire, the future of this park has been transport improvements and considerable investment in unclear, however the need for significant investment in this regionally transport in the area. important park has always been recognised.” I am just sketching out the ground, as these are early It continued: days. People who are for the scheme have contacted me, “It has always been unclear, even with the proposed ‘housing’ as have those who are against. Some people are against funds”— things that they do not even know will come into from the master plan, which, as I say, was approved— existence. The timetable for the development is as follows: “where this investment would come from. In the absence of a by spring next year the design competition should have commercial scheme and significant private sector funding it is concluded; by autumn next year, those involved should widely thought that the approved Master Plan is unlikely ever to be in a position to submit a planning application to the be implemented in full.” London borough of Bromley; if that is on track, they The report continues: should have approval by autumn 2015; work should “The park would remain in the freehold ownership of the start on site in spring 2016; and we should have completion London Borough of Bromley, and would remain an open and in 2018—I am available for the opening if they get free public space for all.” that far. So far, so good. It goes on to say: I am delighted to see the Minister in his place. I want “At the heart of this proposal is the aspiration for the local to ask three key questions of the Government and I community to have a strong role in running, managing and hope he can answer them. In view of the likely scale of maintaining Crystal Palace.” this development—I know that the design competition We would all say amen to that. However, we then get to is still to be decided—how can the London borough of the fact that Arup Associates, which has been hired by Bromley decide on a planning application which will ZhongRong to oversee this project—I have no doubt clearly be in breach of the 1990 Act? Surely the Act that Arup Associates’ credentials are impeccable and would need to be amended, abolished or repealed before that the firm is well used to large-scale civil engineering the council would be able to consider such an application. projects—estimates that it will be possible to draw an It could not possibly give planning approval to something additional 2 million visitors to the palace and park per that clearly breaks the law. Will the Government underwrite annum. That is 6,000 visitors a day, if they are spread a full consultation with all local groups, citizens and out evenly. As we all know, that is not likely to happen; neighbouring local authorities to ensure that all voices on some days there may be only 2,000, whereas on are heard so that we can make the most informed others there may be 10,000 or 12,000. decision about this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? This Crystal Palace and that part of south-east London is a major departure from any previous planning guidelines are already congested and overcrowded, and the public or outlines and from the master plan for the park, so transport links are full to the gunnels. The roads have can the Minister assure me that if it were to move no more space to accommodate anybody. Even though through all its stages and be approved by the London the plan includes a 3,000-space underground car park borough of Bromley, the Government would call it in to get people out of the park, which is fine, how on for further inquiry and deliberation? earth are we going to move that number of people in and out of the area at any given time? 8.25 pm The restored park would be a public space for all to enjoy, and approximately 100 new jobs would be created TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities there—that must be a good thing. It would increase the and Local Government (Nick Boles): I congratulate the number of visitors, the footfall in the town centres and hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) the expenditure there—that is another good thing. Some for securing this debate on an issue of such dramatic 1,000 jobs would be associated with the construction, importance for his constituents. In the short time left for and a further 1,000 associated with the operation of the my speech I want to make sure that I answer his questions, palace and the other activities to which ZhongRong is but I must first say that he is right that the Crystal keen to ensure local people have access. Palace was one of those few iconic buildings. Even those of us who were not alive while it stood know what it The picture is very mixed. I am not one to look a gift looked like and think that it would be rather marvellous horse in the mouth, but it is entirely reasonable to check if this city had such a thing again. whether it has four legs and some teeth. Given all the impact that this huge change is likely to bring to our It is, of course, tremendously exciting that somebody area, how do we assess whether it is in people’s best in the world thinks it is possible, sensible and affordable interests? When the original Crystal Palace turned up to rebuild some version of the building, although obviously on Sydenham hill, it brought two new railway stations in modern form. Nevertheless, as the hon. Gentleman and railway connections with it. The high-level station points out, the proposal is at a very early stage and raises has now gone, following the demise of the original a huge number of complex issues for the developer and, Crystal Palace, and we are left with just Crystal Palace critically, for the community in which Crystal Palace sits. station. It has strong links to London Bridge, Victoria, The first point to make is the one on which the hon. East Croydon and all points south, and in recent years Gentleman concluded, about the need for consultation. the East London line has been put in, adding capacity. All planning applications are better off if there is intense But things have changed; one of the first things Mayor consultation at the earliest stage possible. A planning Johnson did on being elected in 2008, or whenever it application on the scale that this is likely to be can was, was to cancel the Tramlink extension to Crystal succeed only if there has been consultation at every Palace from Beckenham. We are now being told that stage from the start, binding in not only local elected 899 Crystal Palace Park29 OCTOBER 2013 Crystal Palace Park 900 officials but as many local people as possible in public to conditions, but I agree that it is unusual and perhaps meetings, through exhibitions and through every form unprecedented to give planning permission when one of of consultation. I know that that is well understood by the conditions is a change in the law. I would imagine the Mayor’s office and by the London borough of that he is probably right that any necessary changes to Bromley, but the hon. Gentleman is quite right to legislation would need to be made in parallel with emphasise the need. The Government will be very clear consideration of the planning application. As he points that such a proposal will have little chance of getting out, however, these are early days. We have not even anywhere without consultation from the start. seen an outline planning application, so we do not Secondly, the hon. Gentleman made a point about necessarily need to know right now how we will jump the effect on transport infrastructure. Government policy that hurdle if we get that far. is very clear that developments of any kind must be The hon. Gentleman is right that this is a tremendously sustainable and one of the ways in which this scheme exciting project for his constituents, for London and for must be sustainable is by ensuring that the transport the country. It is right that the London borough of infrastructure is able to support the level of activity and Bromley and the Mayor have decided to embrace it and movement generated. A development on this scale will to bring in very high-quality firms and individuals as have a dramatic effect on the transport infrastructure advisers. It is incredibly important that this is not an and although of course the transport infrastructure in elite project and that it is carried out by, for and with the that part of London is enviably good compared with support of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and all that in some other urban areas in the country, it nevertheless those who live close to that dramatic landmark. We can cannot cope with an unlimited amount of additional all see the potential, but we can also see some risks if demand. That will be an incredibly important part of there is any sense in which the project is visited upon a any planning application and of the consultation to community by others who think it is a grand idea but which we have just referred. will not have to live or work next to it. Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked how a planning The hon. Gentleman is quite right to stand up for his application and the process of granting permission constituents and to continue to do so. I know that my could be reconciled with the legislative obstacles he has Department will be happy to work with him in ensuring identified. We have made it very clear to the Mayor of that that consultation takes place, that the transport London and the London borough of Bromley that we infrastructure is adequate and that the planning process are happy to work with them to try to resolve those fully takes into account the opinions of his constituents. legislative issues through whatever means necessary, Question put and agreed to. although we hope that what they require of this House will be minimal. We remain ready to do that. It is 8.30 pm sometimes possible to give planning permission subject House adjourned.

197WH 29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 198WH

from such injustice over so many years. Lord Winston Westminster Hall described it as the worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS. Tuesday 29 October 2013 I am delighted that we are joined this morning by so many hon. Members from both sides of the House— particularly the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), who raised the issue again with the [JIM DOBBIN in the Chair] Prime Minister in a clear and determined way a few days ago. I am also pleased that my right hon. Friend Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) is in attendance Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting for the start of the debate. It is unusual for a Secretary be now adjourned.—(Amber Rudd.) of State, or shadow Secretary of State, to attend an Adjournment debate in Westminster Hall. His attendance 9.30 am is appreciated; he is keeping a promise made earlier this year. My constituents have asked me to thank him this Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I morning for his willingness to listen—not only now in am grateful to have the opportunity once again to draw opposition, but when he was the Secretary of State. the attention of the House and of Ministers to the injustice that still faces those who in the 1970s and Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): I apologise, Mr Dobbin, 1980s became infected as a result of treatment with that I cannot stay for the whole debate. I am here to contaminated blood products. show solidarity with my right hon. Friend the Member Let me say at the outset that, although I seek in for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), who this debate to highlight the particular issues and concerns has represented his constituents outstandingly, and with of those with haemophilia who were infected with Peter Mossman and Fred and Eleanor Bates, whom I hepatitis C, I recognise, of course, that the issues affect met in my office with my right hon. Friend when I was others beyond that group. Many haemophiliacs received Health Secretary. other infections, HIV in particular, and some were I want my right hon. Friend and his constituents to dual-infected with HIV and hepatitis C. Others were understand that the commitment I gave to them was not multi-infected by the range of other viruses to which a one-off, convenient commitment, but a permanent they were exposed. Some haemophiliacs were treated one. If I were to find myself back in government, that with blood taken from donors who later died from CJD. commitment would remain. Does my right hon. Friend Others did not have haemophilia, but were none the less agree that there needs to be a further process of truth infected as a result of their NHS treatment. I am sure and reconciliation, so that those concerned have all the that some who contribute to the debate later will refer answers for which they are still looking? to the experience of those who have been affected in those other ways, and a number of points I will make Paul Goggins: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend will have a broader relevance to those people’s situations. and I agree with him entirely. There needs to be not only The reason why I selected financial support for people a review of the current financial arrangements, but a with haemophilia infected with hepatitis C as a topic for deeper search for the truth, to bring justice, an explanation debate is simple: it reflects the specific concerns of three and a profound apology to those who have suffered. I of my constituents with whom I have been campaigning will make some remarks about that later. on the issue for 16 years. They are Peter Mossman, Fred I will not dwell this morning on the long history of Bates and Eleanor Bates, who is Fred’s wife. I pay the injustice, other than to remind the House that of the tribute to their determination and the single-minded 4,670 people with haemophilia who were infected with way in which they have worked with other members of hepatitis C or HIV, at least 1,757 have died from the the haemophilia community in pursuit of justice and effects of the viruses; I say “at least” because the number truth. is almost certainly higher than that. Although it was I am delighted that you, Mr Dobbin, will oversee our recognised at the time that the use of imported blood proceedings this morning, although given your keen products carried a very high risk, treatment continued interest in the topic, I suspect that a bit of you would and patients were simply kept in the dark. As people like to participate. tried to get to the truth, they were met with a lack of honesty and deep disrespect. Their dogged persistence Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I is remarkable. congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing the debate, which is one of many over the years. Does he, like me, Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) think and hope that the Minister will give positive (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his excellent answers this morning, given the many debates in the speech, the work he has been doing and obtaining the past, so that the people affected can experience justice? debate. I know that the debate and the figures he gave relate mainly to England. His late friend and mine—his Paul Goggins: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for predecessor, Alf Morris—would be proud of the work that intervention. He makes precisely the point I was he is doing. moving on to. I welcome the new Minister, the hon. Would my right hon. Friend allow me to introduce Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), to the debate and one Scottish aspect to the discussion? In Scotland, the to her new responsibilities. Whatever else she achieves Penrose inquiry is taking evidence on a wider range of in her time as a Minister—and I hope she achieves a issues than has so far been possible in this House, great deal—nothing would be more important than including about what steps were taken to protect the bringing a measure of justice to those who have suffered public, given the clinical knowledge available at the 199WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 200WH

[Mr Tom Clarke] known Peter Mossman and Fred Bates, I have seen them on good days and bad. I have seen them in pain time. Without delaying the action for which he urgently and distress, but I am aware that their most painful calls, would he take that on board and would the moments have been at times when I have not seen them, Minister reflect those views? because they have not been able to get out of bed and out of the house. They suffer similarly, but one of them Paul Goggins: I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s is at stage 1 and one is at stage 2. intervention. He is a fine campaigner on a range of The discrimination is as incomprehensible as it is issues, but on none more so than this. He did great work unjust, and it has enormous consequences. Those at with my predecessor, the late Alf Morris. I referred to stage 1 receive a one-off payment of £20,000; those at my 16 years of campaigning with Fred, Eleanor and stage 2 receive an additional £50,000 lump sum plus an Peter, but I was, of course, only picking up the baton; annual payment, which is currently £14,191. The Minister Alf had worked with them tirelessly for many years. should scrap this crude distinction and urgently consider My right hon. Friend raises a pertinent point about implementing a wider assessment of the health and Penrose, because when he reports no Government will well-being of each individual. The payments are intended be able sit back and do nothing. Profound questions to help people cope with the difficulties that they face, will be posed by that report and they will apply every bit and more should benefit from them. as much here as they do in Scotland. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his timely reminder. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Like others, I In January 2011, two years after the independent congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing this inquiry led by Lord Archer of Sandwell, the Government important debate. This issue started in the 1970s, so the concluded a review of the support available to those problem has now been with us for 43 years. More than who had been infected with hepatitis C and HIV. Along 80% of the individuals with a bleeding disorder did not with others, at the time I welcomed the additional lump benefit from any ongoing payments for a long time. sum and annual payments to those infected with hepatitis C That must be rectified. The Government must review who had reached the so-called stage 2—essentially, where immediately how the issue is handled. cirrhosis has been diagnosed. Other improvements were made, but it was clear to many of us from the outset that for the vast majority nothing would change; they Paul Goggins: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s would continue to suffer without the help they needed support for that argument. Differentiating between stage 1 and were owed. That suffering is deepened by the confusing and stage 2 creates a false and discriminatory division. arrangement of the funds that are meant to help them. It is not acceptable, and it does not help the many In April, the Minister’s predecessor attended a meeting people registered at stage 1 who are not at stage 2 of the all-party group on haemophilia and contaminated because they have not been diagnosed with cirrhosis, blood. I see a number of right hon. and hon. Members but who still often live in great pain and distress. It is here who were present at that meeting; they will remember vital that they get the financial and other help that they that it was fairly stormy and that a range of views were absolutely need. expressed about the funds. Those present will remember Currently, the Caxton Foundation must try through what was said. I made a note of some of the comments: discretionary payments to address the urgent needs of “It is utterly bizarre....so many funds”; “a nightmare of those at both stage 1 and stage 2. The fund simply does bureaucracy”; “something is badly wrong”; and “it is not have enough money, and as decisions are made not acceptable to have to go cap in hand”. Those about whose need is greater, recipients feel as though comments were all made by the Minister’s predecessor, they must beg even for essentials. Ministers will need to leaving those who attended wondering why she had not obtain and share more accurate data, particularly to come to the meeting with solutions rather than joining assess how many of those registered at stage 1 have died in the chorus of criticism. and what the likely financial costs would be of a revised My constituents want one fund for haemophiliacs arrangement between stages 1 and 2. That information with hepatitis C, essentially bringing together those is vital, but one fund with the resources to make lump-sum parts of the Skipton Fund and the Caxton Foundation and annual payments to all those who need them is an that currently administer the limited financial support essential first step. available. They believe that that would reduce bureaucracy Other issues must also be addressed. People with or and, more importantly, enable those who manage the without haemophilia who have been infected with funds to increase focus on their specific needs. Although hepatitis C should be exempt from the employment and they acknowledge others’ needs, they want and are support allowance work capability assessment and placed entitled to a better response than they currently receive. automatically in the support group. It heaps indignity Within the new fund, the immediate priority should on injustice to put them through the Atos back-to-work be a complete overhaul of the stage 2 assessment. test when work is simply impossible for the vast majority Currently, the lump sum and annual payments start of them. Will the Minister hold urgent discussions with only after hepatitis C has caused cirrhosis. Three out the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with a of four people registered at stage 1 do not progress view to creating that exemption? It would be compassionate, to stage 2, even though they, too, experience extreme relatively inexpensive and a clear indication that she and severe symptoms, including great fatigue and often means business. painful bleeds. I also ask the Minister to consider the specific needs The discrimination between those at stage 1 and of those, such as my constituent Eleanor Bates, who stage 2 has been brought home to me through my care for their loved ones. The Caxton Foundation is constituents’ experience. Over the many years I have meant to help them, but they frequently feel that they 201WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 202WH are last in the queue. Their lives have also been affected details that they have given me, although I do not deeply by their partners’ infection, and their needs as intend to mention any names out of respect for carers must be addressed. confidentiality and personal issues. Reforming the funds and providing a fairer, more The Archer inquiry investigated the fact that between effective system of financial support would be an important the 1970s and late 1980s, 4,670 people with haemophilia step in the right direction, but no debate about the issue were infected with hepatitis C through treatment by the should omit the need for a proper acknowledgement of NHS that they loved and respected, which ultimately, what took place and why, and a profound and sincere unfortunately, let them down. Of those, 1,243 people apology for the suffering created by the disaster. with haemophilia were also exposed to HIV, as the right Campaigners still want a public inquiry, and I support hon. Gentleman said. Almost half of those infected fully their calls for transparency and accountability. with hepatitis C and almost three quarters of those If the Government continue to set their face against a co-infected with HIV have since died and many have formal public inquiry, they should, in my view, consider tragically left families behind. When looking at the other mechanisms established in the recent past to get at impact on the individuals, we can never forget about the the truth of an historic wrong. Two years ago, the Prime effect on their families; many individuals have experienced Minister commissioned the highly respected lawyer poverty and discrimination as a result of their infections. Sir Desmond de Silva to undertake a full investigation People, either through mistrust or lack of knowledge, into the circumstances surrounding the death of the sometimes unfairly discriminate against those with Northern Ireland solicitor Pat Finucane in 1989. Although infections. The provisions recommended by the Archer this approach was not welcomed by Mr Finucane’s inquiry would offer appropriate support and compensation family, Sir Desmond had access to all the intelligence to those affected and would ensure that steps were files, Cabinet papers and earlier reports, and concluded taken to improve blood safety. that there had been what the Prime Minister described last December as “shocking” levels of state collusion. The previous Government argued that the reason why financial support was not made available at comparable In relation to another tragedy that took place in levels to those in the Republic of Ireland, for example, 1989—I am pleased that my right hon. Friend the was that the disaster affected the two countries differently. Member for Leigh is still here—the Hillsborough I am unsure how that was worked out. Perhaps the independent panel, which was welcomed by the families disaster was measured in numbers, but the disaster is of the 96 people who died at the FA cup semi-final, also the same to each individual and each family. No-fault demonstrated a determination to get to the truth. As a Government payment schemes were established to provide result of the report, inquests have now been reopened. support to those affected. The Archer inquiry, which Whatever Ministers decide to do in this case must, of was non-statutory and funded from private donations, course, be discussed with those whose lives have been reported in February 2009 on the Government’s response. directly affected. Continuing to do nothing is simply Among its recommendations was a call for reform of not acceptable. A serious Government-backed inquiry support for those affected in line with the scheme used must be held, with access to all the remaining records in the Republic of Ireland. If we had had in Northern and the power finally to get to the truth of what Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom a scheme happened and why. In addition to fair financial support, similar to that of the Republic of Ireland, our constituents those who have suffered so much are still owed a full would have been much more satisfied. What does the explanation and a sincere, profound apology. Minister think about the Republic of Ireland’s scheme? Is it possible that we can try to match it?

9.47 am Despite the Government’s announcing on 10 January 2011 an increase in payments to some of those infected Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the with hepatitis C, what has been put in place is not right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East adequate to support people through their illnesses. The (Paul Goggins) on bringing this important matter to the Government’s scheme now has two stages, as outlined House’s consideration. I will speak specifically on behalf by the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale of my constituents, as I think will everyone who speaks East. A first stage payment of £20,000 is available to today, from a heartfelt understanding of the problems eligible people. Following that, successful recipients of that those constituents have faced for a number of the first stage payment whose hepatitis C infection has years. My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann led to advanced liver disease can receive a second stage (David Simpson) illustrated the time scale. If ever there payment of £50,000. Those who have received the second were a powerful case for the Minister to answer, this is stage payment are also entitled to additional annual one. Many of the speeches made today will be impassioned. payments of £14,000, paid monthly or quarterly. The I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the money may look good and it sounds like a lot of hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) to her position, support, but, as always, there is more than meets the eye and I look forward to working together on many issues to the press release. As the saying goes, the devil is in the in future. detail, and that is clearly the case here. The Hepatitis C The background to the case is clear. I have spoken to Trust supplied an interesting briefing and is calling for a constituents of mine who are victims. Some of my rethink of the strategy and policy. The trust, with which constituents live daily with these illnesses through no I certainly agree, asks that the first and second stage fault of their own but rather as a result of the Government’s categories be removed. As a constituent of mine said, inaction at a time when action was important. My the payment can never compensate for what has happened, constituents have sent me a briefing, and I have relied but it can offer support and help people to adjust to and on them for information as well as for the personal live a life affected by it. 203WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 204WH

[Jim Shannon] Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I congratulate the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East People infected with hepatitis C can experience severe (Paul Goggins) on securing a debate on this important symptoms, including extreme fatigue, depression, aching issue. limbs, headaches and abdominal pains, which may mean What are the thoughts of the hon. Member for that they are unable to work for long periods of time. Strangford (Jim Shannon) on the role of specialist The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East hepatitis C nurses in providing support to sufferers referred to Atos in his speech—I think it was also who are haemophiliacs and more generally? The NICE mentioned in an intervention. The situation of people guidelines suggest a minimum of one specialist hepatitis C who are unable to work for long periods of time needs nurse for every 40 patients in the community and one to be understood. Symptoms can lead to difficulties in such nurse for every 20 patients in a hospital setting. holding down a job and receiving an income. Sufferers Does the hon. Gentleman think that the Government’s rely on help from family and sometimes from other plans to transfer resources through the clinical carers, and the fact that the annual sum starts only commissioning group allocations will help or hinder the when a person’s hepatitis C has caused cirrhosis does improvement of support for hepatitis C sufferers? not take any of that into account. Understanding the problem is the crux of the issue. The briefing I received Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for helpfully from the Hepatitis C Trust put it succinctly: highlighting the role of specialist nurses. I hope that the “Some patients without cirrhosis are far more symptomatic Minister will be able to give us an indication of than some who have reached that stage. Indeed, some patients die the importance of the role of nurses and therefore whilst still in stage 1. Therefore there should be no distinction the importance of retaining them and ensuring that the between stage 1 and stage 2 payments for people who have been numbers are correct. infected with hepatitis C through contaminated blood. They should be entitled to the full and on-going support immediately.” Just a few minutes spent reading the stories of victims and their families on the taintedblood.info website brings The second point raised in the briefing is that there a lump to the throat. In this House, where we have the has been no Government apology to date. The right privilege to represent our constituents, we cannot continue hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East referred to leave the families behind. I wholeheartedly support to the Pat Finucane case and the apology that the Prime the removal of the two-tier system, which would entitle Minister made, so I urge the Minister to consider an people to an annual sum to help them to cope with the apology for those infected, who have suffered many side effects of this terrible disease and would take a little years of illness as a result. Having listened to some of pressure off the families who are faced with watching the apologies, which should never have been uttered, their loved one fade away before their eyes. It is well that have rolled off Government Minister’s tongues to past time that we do the right thing by those affected, pacify and placate people for political gain, I find it and that will not be done by separating and segregating difficult to believe that there has been no Government those infected by the same disease. I urge the Minister apology. I have sometimes heard Members of this House to take on board what is said today by the right hon. and the Prime Minister apologising on my behalf when Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East and others no apology was needed and yet here, when there clearly and to do the obvious and right thing by providing the was a fault and when innocent people lost their lives apology and response that we need. following treatment by the NHS, mouths seem to be suddenly closed. I cannot understand that mindset. A Several hon. Members rose— mistake was made that has cost lives and has cost other people the price of living with horrific diseases, and if Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. I intend to call the that does not deserve a heartfelt apology then I am at a shadow Minister at 20 minutes to 11 and five or six hon. loss to think what does. Members want to speak, so I ask them to watch the length of their speeches before I have to impose limits. Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Does my hon. Friend agree that what sufferers and their 9.58 am families need are empathy, an apology, to which he has Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): I alluded, and a commitment to ongoing support for the congratulate the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe remainder of their days? If they saw that coming from and Sale East (Paul Goggins) on securing this debate. the heart of Government, we would have accomplished My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan a significant amount of what the right hon. Member for Evans) and I think that this is the first debate on this Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) and his subject since the death of Lord Morris of Manchester. predecessor have sought to achieve. It is therefore highly appropriate that the first debate since Alf’s death was proposed by the right hon. Member Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that for Wythenshawe and Sale East. I welcome my hon. contribution, which refers to something that we would Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) to her all want to see. I am reminded of what my mother told new position as Under-Secretary of State for Health. me as a child: “Compassion is your pain in my heart.” Those of us who have followed her career for some time She was referring to an understanding of the problems know that that is richly deserved. Perhaps the honour to facing other people, which, in a way, is why we are here. set the seal on something that has been going on just We are here not just because we want to be MPs, but that bit too long will fall to her. because we are privileged to be elected by our constituents. We see their problems and we must illustrate and expand Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): My hon. those problems in this great House, of which we are Friend and I had the honour of being in government privileged to be a part. more than 20 years ago. Looking back over those years, 205WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 206WH does he share my view—from our ministerial experience, they published their response on 20 May 2009—they although it was not in the Department of Health—that still, in relation to the release of documents on their the outcome in this area has been less than satisfactory website, stated: and that the issue should have been resolved a long time “Further papers have been identified, which are being released ago? today.” In 2009, relevant papers were still being found and put Alistair Burt: My hon. Friend is right. Hanging over in the public domain. The Government added the claim: the issue, particularly for those of us who were Ministers “We do not believe they add to our knowledge”. in successive Governments, is a sense that not enough has been done. No blame can be laid at the door of Well, that is for other people to judge. All this is Back Benchers who have campaigned and done so governed by a very real sense that not enough has been much, and in their respective ways, Governments have disclosed. The current Penrose inquiry, which has been sought over time to do something about the issue, but mentioned, may provide an opportunity to revisit that we are still here because of the overwhelming sense that matter. whatever has been attempted has just not been enough. The third point is that the process has been too One reason why I raised the matter on the Floor of divisive. Sufferers have been inadvertently set against the House with the Prime Minister the other day was to other, being asked, “What have you got—hep C, or capture that sense. Let me say more about that, but I hep C and HIV, or some other variant?” It should not shall try to be brief. I had a meeting with the then be like that. Everyone has suffered because they were all Minister with responsibility for public health, my hon. infected by the same process at the same time, and Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), a few efforts should not be made to divide people. months ago. All of us have had meetings with the The fourth point is that the premise has been successive holders of that ministerial role over time. The wrong: it just does not work to use charity law to deliver history is familiar to us, but there is an overall sense that support that ought to be the Government’s responsibility. whatever has been tried—whatever honest attempts Efforts made over the years to put matters right and Governments have made—has just not been enough. make changes have not done the job. The premise needs I supported the inquiry by Lord Archer of Sandwell, to be scrapped—it should not be there—and colleagues and in 2010, I seconded the early-day motion that called have mentioned that the difficulties of separating stages 1 for the passage of the Bill that Alf Morris had introduced and 2 from hepatitis C only create new barriers and yet in the Lords to put into effect the recommendations of more unhappiness and anguish. that inquiry. I was disappointed that those provisions The problem about the Macfarlane Trust, which deals were not put fully into effect, although the incoming with double-infected patients, is that there is a conflict Government made the changes mentioned by the right between whether it should act on behalf of the Government hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East. We all in disbursing funds or—as it should do—on behalf of welcomed that at the time, while recognising that it was the beneficiaries: arguing for as much support as possible still not enough. and banging the drum for them. I sense that there is a Why are we making another attempt now? As has conflict, because the trust is not doing that, so it is not been made clear by the presence here of the right hon. doing its job. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), there is now a Following up the Prime Minister’s response to my different attitude towards uncovering past wrongs. The question, I will have an opportunity to meet him in a reason why I put the case so clearly to the Prime couple of weeks’ time, when I will be accompanied by Minister is that his record in dealing both with the my constituent. I hope to meet colleagues from all aftermath of the Hillsborough panel and with Bloody parties before that, just to get our lines straight, so that Sunday has demonstrated that he is a Prime Minister we can have a good go at this. who is using his position and authority to right the I say to those—the Minister and her officials—who wrongs of the past. Bearing in mind that he has a will brief the Prime Minister, “Go for it this time. Don’t constituent affected by the issue, we know that he has a miss this opportunity.” There will be all the stuff in the personal interest. That combination of circumstances Department about the difficulties and the things that perhaps means that the person in place has the cannot be done. They should not look at what cannot determination to right the wrongs of the past. If information be done, but at what can be done. This is her and her can be put together properly, something might therefore Department’s chance, on behalf of those who did not be done. get a chance in the first place, so let us go for it. The sense of closure that must be achieved is palpable We need a proper apology and acknowledgment by to all of us with affected constituents. I am here because the person from whom it will mean most, as well as of my relationship with a good—double-infected— friend, some form of inquiry. I liked what the right hon. who has informed me about such matters over the years Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East said about and for whom I desperately want to achieve something. doing that differently. The Government have got to take What has got wrong and what can we put right? The part in it, and questions must finally be answered. There first point is that the process has taken too long: since should be an acknowledgment that the compensation the circumstances originated, it has all taken too long. system and the various trusts are just not working and The second point relates to accepting that something that there must be a new system. has gone wrong. Undoubtedly, Ministers have said so It is not for me to say what the figures for compensation and made that clear, but the Government’s acceptance should be, but in recent years, we have learned that we of something having gone wrong has not been accompanied live in an entitlement culture: if someone walks away by the fullest disclosure of their full part. Even when the from a major job in a big corporation, their wallet is previous Government responded to the Archer inquiry— well padded; if someone walks away from a public 207WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 208WH

[Alistair Burt] to fill in further forms. That feels like moving the goalposts mid-way through an application process, and sector job in the BBC, or even in some local authorities it is not fair. and public bodies, their wallet is well padded. What has Thirdly, I want to see a clear statement on means-testing. happened to those who were wronged by the state? At present, it is my understanding that the Caxton To conclude, the cost of caring for the needs of those Foundation is not having to means-test most applications, affected by the worst treatment disaster in the NHS are and some payments, such as the winter fuel payment, quantifiable; the laying to rest of a tragic incident and are paid to everyone. Why is the foundation asking the righting of a wrong are priceless. applicants to complete intrusive census forms, which ask for incredibly detailed information about the 10.7 am circumstances of an individual or a family? Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): It Fourthly, we need decisions about applications to be is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, reached in a timely fashion, and a clear target should Mr Dobbin. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the be set. Possible further measures could improve the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) efficiency and functioning of all the funds. Will the onsecuring the debate on this very important issue. As Minister consider the staffing levels in the schemes, he said, he has campaigned for 16 years to bring justice because there is a restriction in place? There is also a to this community. He set out clearly the key points need to look again at the availability of financial resources. about the history of what has happened and the issues The Department could introduce some support in kind. that are still outstanding. It could offer to second a public health doctor to the As the co-chair of the all-party group on haemophilia funds, to complete an assessment of beneficiaries’ needs. and contaminated blood, I am delighted to see so many That has never been done, and it would be helpful. The right hon. and hon. Members in Westminster Hall. I Department might also bring to bear its experience of particularly welcome the Minister to her role. I am sure procuring computer and telephone systems. The previous that, like her two predecessors as Minister with responsibility Minister with responsibility for public health, the hon. for public health, she will develop a keen interest in the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), agreed to review issue and get to grips with the points that the community the grant-based system because she recognised that it still want addressed. was demeaning. Will the Minister comment on the Although health is a devolved matter, I hope that the progress of such a review? Government will look at what is happening north of the Hon. Members have already mentioned the unfairness border and the recommendations of the Penrose inquiry of the two-stage process. I wrote to the previous Minister, that are expected in the spring of 2014 and carefully asking her to set out the evidence for separating people consider the Scottish Government’s response to those into the two stages. In particular, I wanted to understand recommendations and the lessons that we can learn in “whether the rationale for awarding payments to Stage 2 sufferers the rest of the United Kingdom. is based on a desire to support these with the increased costs I want to talk about four key issues that my constituent incurred because of the disease or to compensate them for the Glenn Wilkinson, the chair of the Contaminated Blood increased risk of dying.” Campaign, has asked me to raise in this debate and that In her letter back to me, she argued that the decision relate to the financial support given to this community. was based on an I want to pay tribute to his passionate commitment to “expert review of the evidence” seeing that justice is done. I agree with other hon. and that Members about the need for a much broader and deeper review of what has happened, including a public inquiry “the decision was made not to introduce recurrent payments for into the whole disaster. all as there is a wide spectrum of illness associated with chronic hepatitis C infection.” The first of the main issues about financial support is Let me put to the Minister three reasons why that the Caxton Foundation application process. There is argument does not hold up. First, the distinction is not general dissatisfaction with that organisation, which a clear one; there is no blood test. It is a matter of has been given responsibility for grants to people with progression, which is not easily determined. That issue hepatitis C who have received stage 1 payments from is exaggerated by the fact that it requires a liver biopsy the Skipton Fund. The Caxton Foundation has given a to ascertain the level of liver damage, and that, in itself, number of assurances that the application process will is potentially life threatening. become less complex, less stressful and quicker, but when we talk to the community, it says that the grant Secondly, there is increased evidence that hepatitis C application is not improving and that, in some cases, it is more than a liver disease. Other Members have already is becoming worse. I fully understand why many people said that a range of symptoms have been identified feel that a grant-based body is not what this community including fatigue, joint problems and mental health deserves, but until we have a different approach, we issues. Thirdly, the fact that mortality rates are higher must make the system work better for those for whom it among stage 1 sufferers than stage 2 sufferers seems to was set up. be a compelling argument why such an artificial distinction I have some suggestions for the Minister to consider. should not hold. First, we need a clear list of what grants will be given for The Contaminated Blood Campaign has committed published on the website. The lack of clear criteria many hours of research to get to the bottom of the means that people feel that they are often begging. expert evidence. When Professor Brian Gazzard, who is Secondly, we need a simpler application process. At chair of the expert panel, was asked about the matter, present, people tell me that they believe they have he said that they had never discussed the two-stage applied for something only later to find that they have system; in fact, the experts were expressly asked by the 209WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 210WH

Department of Health not to discuss it. Charles Gore, were infected with the virus. However, few, if any, the chief executive of the Hepatitis C Trust, who was haemophiliacs escaped with a single infection; most also one of the experts used by the Department of were exposed multiple times to multiple genotypes Health, has stated that the two-stage approach is an of hepatitis viruses, along with many other types of arbitrary system and that he knows of people who pathogens—hepatitis A, G, D and B for example. Many suffer more in stage 1 than others do in stage 2. Will the are super-infected. Minister set out—if she cannot do it now, perhaps she It has been proved that infection with both HIV and could write to me—what the expert evidence is, so that hepatitis C exacerbates the progression of each virus. It we are clear about how the decision was reached? is time now to look at the wider pictures. Haemophiliacs, I have two other matters to discuss briefly. On the many of whom have been infected by multiple viruses, number of people who are affected, my right hon. desperately need additional support and proper needs Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and assessments. As a community, they were, over time, Bellshill (Mr Clarke) asked a parliamentary question knowingly exposed to such viruses, despite the growing about the number of Skipton stage 1 beneficiaries, warnings. which is unknown. Will the Department of Health take When we look back at what happened, it is worth the necessary steps to identify how many state 1 remembering that the first warnings were given to the sufferers are still living? That could be done through Department of Health in 1958 and yet, as late as 1984, contact information that is still held by the Skipton we were still importing blood from America that we Fund and/or through information now held on census knew had been collected in American prisons. Even forms by the Caxton Foundation. another five years after that, we were still importing On hepatitis C and HIV, I absolutely agree with what blood supplies about which we knew very little. It is the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair incredible that all these years later, in 2013, we are still Burt) said about how we set different parts of the having debates in Westminster Hall to try to bring community against one another. The list of anomalies about justice for this group of patients who were between those infected with hepatitis C and those with scandalously let down by our national health service. HIV and their family members continues to grow. The The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale imbalance of the system now operated by the schemes East made a good point in saying that there has been is such that some family members will get assistances clear resistance for a long time to having a full-blown and others will not. That area needs to be considered, public inquiry. He also made good points about the especially because HIV and its treatment have changed opportunity to go about having one in a slightly different considerably over the past 20 years. That needs to be way, with an inquiry of some sort being given full access recognised. to all the relevant facts. Such an inquiry would stand a Finally, I would be delighted if the Minister accepted very good chance of getting to the truth of why the an invitation to come to a meeting of the APPG on warnings were ignored for all this time. haemophilia and contaminated blood. Grahame M. Morris: The hon. Gentleman is making 10.15 am some very important points, many of which I agree with. However, I seek his views on the privatisation of Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): It is good, Plasma Resources UK, the UK’s plasma laboratory Mr Dobbin, to have the opportunity to contribute to service. One of the reasons why that was acquired by this debate, and I applaud the right hon. Member for the last Government was to ensure safe supplies of, Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) for initiating among other things, factor 8. Does he think that there is it. It is also good to see the breadth of support from a risk involved in that privatisation, particularly in light across the Chamber. of the evidence of what has happened—tragically—to I represent my constituent, Sue Threakall, who has haemophiliacs? campaigned for many years with the Tainted Blood campaign and is currently the chair of that campaign. It Sir Nick Harvey: The hon. Gentleman makes an has taken an awfully long time to get even as far as we interesting point, and there will be anxiety on that front have today. I very much support the comments that in many quarters. We have to hope desperately that other Members have made about how unsatisfactory what he is suggesting does not come to pass, because we the situation is, even now. are going to have to learn the lessons of the past. It is I commend the right hon. Gentleman on a powerful essential that we have proper controls over this sector but well measured and well judged speech. Health Ministers for the future. in Governments of each colour have, on many occasions, A number of hon. Members have referred to the acknowledged that haemophiliacs are an exceptional means by which support is given to the sufferers and and specific group of people affected by the contaminated their families, and some good points have been made blood scandal and that they merit special treatment about the two-stage process effectively being a two-tier in light of their tragic circumstances. As we know, with system. There were also some very sensible suggestions the passing of the years, those tragic circumstances about Atos and the all-work test, because the fact of the mean that such sufferers are becoming fewer and fewer matter is that the current system of financial support is in number, and they deserve justice following a 30-year patchy and insufficient. The Government need to revisit campaign, which has yet to achieve a full acknowledgement the issue urgently. —let alone an apology—from the Government for The challenge is partly for the new Health Minister, what happened. my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), Today’s debate focuses on the haemophiliacs who whom I welcome to her post, but it is also a matter were infected with hepatitis C—indeed, all but a tiny for the Department for Work and Pensions. It must number of haemophiliacs receiving those blood products recognise the unique circumstances of this community 211WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 212WH

[Sir Nick Harvey] hepatitis C; understandably, the good briefing from the Haemophilia Society has done the same. However, the as a whole and come up with a comprehensive settlement briefing also refers to co-infection with HIV. once and for all, so that the victims, the widows and the When the Minister looks at these issues, I urge her families affected by the tragedy can get on with the rest not to forget those who have been infected, or co-infected, of their lives. with HIV as a consequence of contaminated blood I agree very much with those who have paid tribute to products. Of the 1,252 people who have been infected the current Prime Minister for having been willing to go with HIV in this way, 932 have died so far. Among the into events of the past. He has not always been universally 322 of those people who are still living, one of them is praised for doing so, but he has gone and tangled with my constituent, Andrew March, who was contaminated some tricky issues from the past. This is another such at the age of nine. He is now 39, so his entire life has case and he would be well advised to do the same with effectively been ruined. He has been a staunch campaigner. it. We have to learn lessons from these tragic events, put He was the applicant in the judicial review proceedings things right now and ensure that nothing similar can on this matter, and yet after 30 years he is still waiting happen again. for any proper redress. Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): We have two speakers left I feel strongly that this issue is the responsibility of and approximately 15 minutes for them both. Government, and the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) was also clear on that. To some 10.22 am extent, the admission of liability is not the central question. The previous Minister wrongly said that the Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Thank reason why proper payments were made in the Republic you, Mr Dobbin, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure of Ireland was that there was an admission of liability. to be here in Westminster Hall under your chairmanship. In fact, payments were being made there before the I, too, thank my right hon. Friend the Member for admission was made, as the hon. Member for Foyle Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) for securing (Mark Durkan) pointed out very clearly, having a clear this debate and for his speech. I welcome the Minister, knowledge of what happened; the hon. Gentleman the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), to her is not here today, but he has done a lot of work on post. This is the second Westminster Hall debate in two this issue. weeks that I have taken part in and she has responded We do not need to get tied up in those matters of to, so she has a very full in-tray. Nevertheless, I urge her liability, but personally I would like an admission of to study her brief on this issue and, as my hon. Friend responsibility from the Government, because, for some the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana of the reasons that have already been given, that much Johnson) said, to meet the victims of the contaminated more could have been done. In the 1970s and 1980s, blood scandal and their MPs. there was a delay because of a failure to see what Most importantly, the Minister should come up with medical knowledge was showing about contamination. a proposal for resolving the remaining injustices on this Even when that contamination was known, there was a issue. I am sure that she will; she has a reputation for failure to treat products so that they were no longer being thoughtful and open-minded on such subjects, harmful. but she will have heard from right hon. and hon. Members My final point is about funding. Reference has already today that this problem becomes more pressing with been made to the Skipton Fund in relation to hepatitis C, every year that passes. but there are similar problems with the Macfarlane I am afraid that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Trust. I have been told that it is effectively falling apart; Kingston upon Hull North said, the cause was somewhat that the review of its probity, of its success, has been set back by the meeting that the previous Minister, the ignored; that there is very poor communication between hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), had with it and sufferers; and that it is underfunded. the all-party group on haemophilia and contaminated blood earlier this year. It is no exaggeration to say that The result of all that is that people die. People die it is the worst meeting I can remember in eight years of because they are not getting sufficient treatment or going to such meetings. The previous Minister was sufficient medication that they need to deal with their completely unprepared in her brief; she shared the conditions. HIV is a treatable condition, but for those all-party group’s concerns but had no solutions whatever who have serious health problems it can still be fatal to address them. That meeting was attended by 20 MPs and that issue is not being addressed. In the short term, and peers, with 20 others giving their apologies. The I ask the Minister to look at both the lump sum and number of Members who take part in the frequent ongoing support payments, but in the longer term what debates on this issue shows the level of concern among we need is a full and final settlement. all parties about it. I suspect that many Ministers, particularly junior This is a great injustice, which successive Ministers, wonder how much difference they have made Governments have failed to address; in so far as on a lot of issues when they finally leave their posts. they have attempted to address it, they have done However, I also suspect that this is one discrete area, so in a miserly and bureaucratic way. An inquiry has with a defined number of victims, where the Minister been refused, and responsibility has been refused, by could make a difference if she chooses to put her mind Government, and those things are to be deplored. to it, in a way that some of her predecessors have not. In the very few minutes that I have to speak, I wish to introduce one additional topic. My right hon. Friend Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): A Welsh the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East has rightly member of the all-party group on haemophilia and framed this debate in terms of contaminated blood and contaminated blood recently told me that every meeting 213WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 214WH and correspondence that it has with the Government not administered in a way that serves as a further source ends with the words, “The Minister will look into this.” of anger, upset and frustration. Yet I hear time and time Does my hon. Friend agree that a promise really to get again that that is the daily frustrating experience of to grips with this issue now would be incredibly important, many beneficiaries. The experience is that policies are not least for Colin—aged seven, from Newport—who created ad hoc with little continuity or clarity, that died in my constituency from having contaminated intrusive and personal details are demanded in response blood? We must also remember the very young victims to the simplest of requests and that the attitude towards whom we are campaigning for. beneficiaries is one of arrogance. Beneficiaries feel at best confused, and at worst bullied, by the very organisation Mr Slaughter: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I created to support them. know that those views are shared by many Members on both sides of the House. In preparing for this debate, I have spoken to two previous trustees, who both suggested that the management We are probably not looking for answers today, although of the trust was completely out of tune with the needs we will listen to what the Minister has to say. She has of beneficiaries. They described an organisation that heard clearly that we can do more than just look into was completely unwilling to make the case for further the issue: we can achieve results for the remaining funding from the Department of Health and that dismissed victims of these terrible diseases and their families. complaints without due care and attention. Although I recognise that the trust is independent of the Department, 10.30 pm the Minister must recognise the harm that is being done Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): I am grateful and, in turn, how that reflects on her Government. for this opportunity, and I congratulate the right hon. I know many of those concerns were raised with the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) Minister’s predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for on securing this important debate. I know that many Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), during the recent AGM of colleagues feel passionately about the issue. Indeed, one the all-party group on haemophilia and contaminated can feel little else when one realises what a long and blood, and I therefore hope that the Minister will continue painful shadow has been cast on the haemophiliac with the internal review that I understand was subsequently community. They are people who put their faith in a initiated, and that she will agree to meet with representatives system that has let them down. from across the community. The community do not I welcome the points raised by other right hon. and want to be perceived as victims forced to go “cap in hon. Members on the anomalies in financial support hand” to beg for support. for those who contracted hepatitis C. Indeed, those Clare Walton, another of my constituents, says: issues have affected one of my own constituents, Mr Dennis, “I want to be empowered, and have autonomy over my own who was infected with hepatitis C in the 1980s and has life, rather than continue with this victim culture through charity.” since been diagnosed with polyarthritis and, most recently, with liver cancer. He has raised with me on a number of The sobering reality is that the Government cannot occasions the lack of additional support for those with afford to wait another 20 years. The people who need tertiary conditions such as polyarthritis, as well as his support are dying in ever increasing numbers. difficulty in obtaining disability benefits, for which previous As my hon. Friend the Member for North East assessments have been based on his mobility rather than Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) rightly commented, the his ability to care for himself and to undertake everyday Prime Minister has an outstanding record of seeking to tasks. Although polyarthritis affects only some 4% of address historical wrongs. Personally, I cannot think of chronic hepatitis C sufferers, it has had a huge impact a better time to address on Mr Dennis’s quality of life. “the worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS.” There is another group that warrants significant attention, however: those who contracted HIV through their NHS Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): I thank all hon. Members treatment. When we talk about financial support who have taken part for their time discipline in this mechanisms, we should learn from their experience of extremely important debate. the Macfarlane Trust, which sadly, is not a tale of best practice. One person said that the trust 10.35 am “neither cares nor understands what we have been, or are, going Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): As through”. always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Another said that the trust is: Mr Dobbin. I apologise on behalf of my hon. Friend “No longer fit for purpose”. the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), who was scheduled A third person said that the trust is: to respond for the Opposition. Sadly, St Jude’s storm “An embarrassment to the government that funds it”. meant that he was stuck in the wilds of Cumbria Those are just a selection of the damning descriptions yesterday and was unable to travel down in time for this of the Macfarlane Trust that I have received from both morning’s debate. beneficiaries and, significantly, trustees. I know that I echo the thanks given to my right hon. Friend the Health Ministers have tried hard to regain the trust of Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) the haemophilia community, but the sad fact is that for securing this debate on an extremely sobering and their efforts are constantly undermined by the failings important issue that has affected many people across of the Macfarlane Trust. the country. I also welcome the new public health We cannot turn the clock back and undo the damage Minister to her post, and I wish her the best of luck. done, nor can we pretend that we can wholly make up This has been a powerful debate, with many moving for the years of distress. However, we can, and must, contributions from Members on both sides of the House. ensure that the support provided by the Government is I thank right hon. and hon. Members for contributing, 215WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 216WH

[Andrew Gwynne] I cannot even begin to imagine the pain and suffering inflicted on the victims who received infected blood. To including my right hon. Friend the Member for those who relied on receiving blood regularly as part of Wythenshawe and Sale East, my hon. Friends the Members their treatment for haemophilia, only to have a life-changing for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) and for diagnosis thrust on them; to those still facing daily Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), and the hon. Members challenges; and to the dependents of those who are, for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for North East Bedfordshire sadly, no longer with us, we owe help, support and (Alistair Burt), for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) and justice. for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi). I pay tribute to the work done by the many campaigners We must remember that 4,500 patients contracted and organisations across the country, which is a credit HIV or hepatitis C due to one of the gravest failures in to the tireless efforts of those affected and their families. modern medicine. That failure hit innocent and trusting Their efforts could have been no better espoused than people, and, to date, it has claimed thousands of lives. by my right hon. Friend, who set out the experiences of Members from both sides of the House will be well his constituents. It is right that such people are exempt aware of how the rowdier moments in the House of from the Atos processes, and my right hon. Friend’s Commons are perceived by our constituents, but I points about the financial burdens that such things put believe that debates such as this, conducted with great on families were extremely timely. Changes to qualifying dignity while addressing serious failures and harrowing criteria for a range of illness-related benefits will unnerve accounts, are a credit to the institution of Parliament, those who depend on such income to make ends meet. I and I look forward to working with the Minister to help am sure that the Minister will welcome this opportunity reach a speedy and satisfactory outcome for those who categorically to state that the Government will protect are campaigning for support to maintain a good quality payments to those who have been affected. Leaving of life. aside the health issues caused by the transmission of The failures in our health system in the 1970s infections, the stress brought on by worrying about bills and 1980s, and the struggle for help and support fought and security can have an extremely damaging impact on by those affected, are a stark reminder of our responsibilities the lives of those concerned. in this place. As we have heard today, progress has On top of dealing with financial concerns, we must been painfully slow—that point was eloquently and provide a health care system that makes it as easy as powerfully put by the hon. Member for North East possible for people with hepatitis C to use the services Bedfordshire. The previous Government and the devolved they need to maintain a good quality of life. I therefore Administrations established the Skipton Fund in 2004 hope that the Minister can give us an indication of the to make ex gratia payments to those who were infected. reforms that are being made to support patients. In May 2009, Lord Archer published a report on My right hon. Friend’s proposal to unite stage 1 and NHS-supplied contaminated blood and blood products. stage 2 under one fund warrants serious consideration, We implemented many of his recommendations, including and I would welcome a pledge from the Minister seriously giving the Haemophilia Society £100,000 for haemophilia to look at it and to try to bring it about. My right hon. doctors and committing to phasing out prescription Friend was also right when he said that the Government charges for patients with long-term conditions. must take any action in conjunction with those who In April 2010, the then public health Minister, Gillian have been affected. Merron, decided to bring forward a review of the As I said, this is not a debate for political point Skipton Fund—we had previously committed to reviewing scoring, and I assure the Minister that the Opposition the fund in 2014. Announcing that decision, she said: want to see swift action to ensure a good outcome for those affected—something eloquently pledged by my “We have listened carefully to the views of those infected, their families, carers and many in this House, who have told us that our right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), intended review date of 2014 will be too late for many of those the shadow Secretary of State for Health, in an intervention affected.”—[Official Report, 6 April 2010; Vol. 508, c. 133-134WS.] earlier. We will therefore be happy to work with the I welcome this Government’s work in continuing to Government to introduce proposals finally to achieve a build on the foundations laid by the previous Government. good and proper conclusion for those affected and their The issue must transcend party politics. Our focus from families and, I hope, to draw a line under one of the now on must be on what we can do to support those darkest failings seen in our country. who bear financial burdens as a result of contracting hepatitis C or HIV. 10.43 am I hope that the Minister is able to give us a comprehensive The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health account of what the Government are doing to build on (Jane Ellison): It is a pleasure to serve under your the actions set out by the Leader of the House when he chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. I thank all hon. Members was Secretary of State for Health in his statement to the who have contributed. This is not the first such debate I House on 10 January 2011. He announced changes to have sat through; as a member of the Backbench Business the financial support schemes for those infected with Committee, I helped to allocate the Back-Bench debate HIV and hepatitis C, including the introduction of an in 2010. I sat through that whole debate, so I came to annual payment of £12,800 for those with the most this post at least familiar with the strength of feeling on serious hepatitis C-related disease as a result of NHS this issue and with the way in which so many hon. blood transfusions and blood products, in line with Members have worked so hard over many years to payments received by people infected with HIV. Those represent their affected constituents. groups need Government support more than ever, and I Inevitably, at the beginning of week four of my time want the Minister to give assurances that work on this in office, I must, I fear, disappoint those hoping for new issue will not be undermined by budget reductions. policy announcements. The debate has perhaps been 217WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 218WH more useful for me, listening to Members’ contributions, now have to pay for their prescriptions. In addition, than it will be for those listening to me. It has been £300,000 has been made available over a three-year incredibly helpful to hear the many comments that have period to provide counselling services to those affected been made, and I will try to answer as many as I can. If by hepatitis C. All those payments are tax-free and are I do not have the knowledge or time to answer any disregarded for the purposes of benefits and determining points, I undertake to write to hon. Members about eligibility for social care services. them. Let me also say straight away that I am more than To pick up the point about the exemption regarding happy to have the meetings that have been asked for. I employment and support allowance, one of my predecessors have some thoughts about how we can get the most out made representations in that regard. The issue is not in of them and make sure they give us a platform on which my remit, and the decision is obviously for the Department to move forward. for Work and Pensions, but I certainly undertake to I thank all those who have contributed to the debate. raise the issue as a result of the debate and to revisit it I congratulate the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe with the appropriate DWP Minister. and Sale East (Paul Goggins) on securing it on behalf A combination of fixed and discretionary payments of those with haemophilia who were, sadly, infected was previously decided on as the best way of ensuring with hepatitis C as a result of treatment with blood greater financial certainty for people facing the most products before 1985. Many Members have talked about severe consequences from infection. The idea was that it the impact on constituents, and that has come home would retain a degree of flexibility so that assistance very forcefully to me. could be tailored to an individual’s personal situation, Members have given me much to reflect on, but I and the debate has clearly shown how different the would like to take some time to lay out the current situations of hon. Members’ constituents are. position. Everyone who has spoken has said they would The set-up put in place could also complement the prefer us to be somewhere different, but it is relevant to other support people might receive, such as through the lay out the practical support that has been offered to benefits system. The flexibility that gave was thought to date and where successive Governments have got to. be important, because an individual’s needs vary Indeed, the presence of a former Secretary of State at significantly. However, I know there is concern among the beginning of the debate rather underlined the fact haemophilia patients and others infected with hepatitis C that successive Governments have struggled to achieve that there is insufficient support—this has been the a final resolution. I very much welcome the cross-party focus of much of the comment today—for those who tone of the debate and the shadow Minister’s commitment have developed chronic infection, particularly Skipton to work with the Government. Fund stage 1 beneficiaries, on whose behalf many Members The Government are fully committed to supporting have eloquently spoken. affected haemophilia patients, by ensuring that haemophilia The scientific and clinical advice that the Department and hepatology services in the NHS are as good as received during the review did not support the case for possible and by providing direct financial assistance. making regular annual payments to all those infected There is the prospect of some good new treatments for with hepatitis C. I am advised that some people with hepatitis C, with fewer side effects than the current chronic hepatitis C infection clear the virus, and that treatment and less of an impact on day-to-day life. We those numbers could increase with the new therapies all welcome that, but I recognise that although these that are emerging. Decisions on financial support have new therapies may treat the infection, they may not been informed by the evidence, where that is available. alleviate all the associated health effects. For many of The spectrum of possible consequences of hepatitis C those affected by hepatitis C, there is a continuing need infection appears to be wide-ranging, and, in many for support. cases, causal association has not been established. That In January 2011, my right hon. Friend the Member has been a problem in the past. Ministers were grateful for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), then the Secretary for the advice of experts on that area—a complex one, of State for Health, informed the House that we would obviously—ahead of the 2010 review. Following the provide additional support for those affected. It is important review, the then Minister with responsibility for public to remember that that support was available to not just health, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford haemophilia patients, but any patient infected with HIV (Anne Milton), promised that new evidence would be or hepatitis C by an NHS-supplied blood transfusion assessed regularly. That challenge was put to me several before 1991. times in the debate. Those assessments will help with Although many who have spoken this morning are future decisions whether to make changes to the payments seeking a longer-term resolution, let me quickly go system. through the additional practical support that the The advisory group on hepatitis recently completed Government have put in place. We linked the annual its first assessment of the clinical and scientific evidence payment for HIV awarded by the previous Government published since the 2010 review, and the Department to inflation, so it does not lessen in value. We introduced has sought further detail from the group on some of the a similar payment for those most seriously affected by information in the report. Some people affected by hepatitis C, and we increased the value of the lump sum hepatitis C dispute the expert interpretation of the for that group to £50,000. I very much hear the concerns evidence, so Department of Health officials have some Members expressed about the divisiveness of commissioned a systematic review of the scientific and separating different groups, but the lump sum for that clinical evidence on the natural history of hepatitis C. group was nevertheless increased substantially. That will report in autumn 2014. I shall raise with A discretionary payment mechanism was also introduced officials the question whether that could be brought to meet specific financial needs for all those infected forward. An earlier report could be useful in the light of with, or affected by, hepatitis C. None of those affected other events. 219WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs)29 OCTOBER 2013 Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 220WH

[Jane Ellison] Alistair Burt: I thank the Minister for what she has said about her openness with respect to the inquiry. I We hope that, in addition to providing a definitive recognise that she is new to her post, but if there is one analysis of the available evidence, the systematic review subject that the Department knows all about, it is the will be of value for service planning in the NHS. Several one we are debating. It has all the information it needs. hon. Members have referred to other parts of the NHS I do not expect the Prime Minister to come to a and the provision made for continuing care, so I think definitive decision at the meeting in a couple of weeks that the exercise has additional value. The hon. Member about what he or the Department can do, but I hope for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) made that the Department will give a briefing of the right the case, and although I cannot respond to her detailed tone, saying that there is an opportunity to settle the points and questions about some distinctions that are matter. Somewhere among the options—either the first made, we are aware of the dispute. I undertake to write or the last—is the one that settles things. It has existed to her if I can respond in more detail. for some time. I ask my hon. Friend to do all she can, Several trusts have been mentioned this morning, but using the same spirit as is in her response on opening I understand that beneficiaries of the Caxton Foundation things up through an inquiry, to point the Prime Minister have not always found it responsive to their needs. This in that direction, so that as he deliberates on the question morning, hon. Members have expressed concerns about and she finds her feet in dealing with it, we can, as the how it has operated since it was established in 2011. I debate has urged, move towards finding a way to close have seen recent correspondence between campaigners the matter. and Caxton Foundation trustees, so I am aware of some of the unhappiness. Jane Ellison: My hon. Friend makes fair points. I I want to give reassurance on one point: the foundation spent much of the past three years chasing him in his has £2 million for payments in England and has not yet previous role to put right a continuing historical wrong, spent all the money available to it. If it needs more and he is right to push me in the same vein. I take his money, it can make a business case to the Department. I remarks, as I have always taken his advice and thoughts, understand that it will be doing so this year, and we extremely seriously, and will reflect on them. shall consider that on its merits. It has been working I want quickly to mention the Penrose inquiry, of hard to improve its services in the past year and has which I am very aware. As the hon. Member for Kingston already established some processes to: reduce the time upon Hull North said, it will report in the spring. Right between application for and payment of straightforward hon. and hon. Members may be interested to know that grants, an issue mentioned by several hon. Members in the Department of Health has provided all reasonable the debate; make payments in the form preferred by the assistance to Lord Penrose, explaining what documents beneficiary; and continue to review where it can improve are held in the Department. further. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North Mr Tom Clarke: Will the Minister give way? made points about published criteria for the application process, means-testing and specialist doctors. Those are Jane Ellison: May I continue, as I fear I will not get all detailed points that I shall consider, and on which I through the remaining points? I will be happy to speak shall respond to her, but I shall need to make contact to the right hon. Gentleman straight after the debate. with the foundation, because all decisions about payments are made by the trustees. I do not have the power to We have made available to Lord Penrose any additional direct them on how to make decisions, but after the documents that he has felt are necessary to his inquiry. debate I intend to write to remind them that the trust While it is continuing, I shall not comment on the deed enables them to meet any charitable need and not inquiry or evidence given to it, but I shall consider just those that arise directly from an individual’s hepatitis C whether the Department will make a response. Given infection. If hon. Members have other points that they that Lord Penrose is considering pre-devolution matters, want to raise with me, I shall be happy to put them to it is hard to imagine that there will not be implications the foundation. Clearly, some of those that have been to which I and the Department shall need to respond. raised this morning are matters for concern. We do not know the exact shape of things, but the inquiry is on my radar, and we shall be considering it. Several right hon. and hon. Members have talked about public inquiries, or a process of truth and The hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) reconciliation. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe made a point about specialist hepatitis C nurses. That is and Sale East made interesting points about different the responsibility of NHS England, and I undertake to approaches in recent years. I shall reflect carefully on write to that body to draw its attention to his comments. what he said, which I think other right hon. and hon. I think that I have now covered most of the specific Members supported, about considering different points that I can answer today; unfortunately, I cannot approaches. respond to some of the detailed points. There was a The Department of Health has put relevant facts for challenge about the number of Skipton Fund stage 1 the period in question—1970 to 1985—in the public beneficiaries; there are difficulties in identifying the domain, on its website; however, colleagues have called numbers, but we will examine that issue and see whether for more material to be put in the public domain, and I we can respond in more detail to the challenge given by shall reflect on that, as well as on what has been said the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North. this morning about the different models of truth and Inevitably the debate has been, for me, an invaluable reconciliation processes. It was interesting, and it is opportunity more to hear some of the arguments than something for me to reflect on. to give specific answers on the important points that 221WH Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) 29 OCTOBER 2013 222WH colleagues have raised so well on their constituents’ Post Offices (Islington) behalf. I am happy to have the meetings that have been suggested. 11 am Nadhim Zahawi: Will the Minister give way on that point? Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I am pleased to have this half-hour debate on post offices in Islington. Jane Ellison: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I need With the agreement of the Minister, my hon. Friend the to conclude. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily I have heard the big challenge that I have been set this Thornberry) will also contribute, so we will divide the morning. It is one that many of my distinguished time up between us. predecessors have been set, and I do not underestimate My borough, to describe it briefly, is one of fast-rising its nature or scale. There is, and has been for a long population, with a combination of employment patterns. time, great unhappiness about this topic; many people Most people commute out of the borough to work in have wrestled with it. I assure right hon. and hon. central London, or elsewhere; many work for the local Members that I will do my best to rise to the challenge. authority or for education and health employers locally; and a very large number work in very small businesses, or work at home, and are therefore the kind of people who make a big usage of our local post office facilities. If people went from the debate to visit any of our Crown post offices, they would find large queues of people accessing a large variety of services, not necessarily postal-related, but some financial and other such services. We value our post offices greatly. The local authority, my hon. Friend and I, the local representatives from the Communication Workers Union and Post Office management have had a number of meetings—round-table discussions—convened by the leader of Islington council, formerly Councillor Catherine West, now Councillor Richard Watts. There was also a public scrutiny committee on the issue, which is obviously a live one and heavily debated locally. It is of great importance to us. I have a photocopy of a document, “Modernising the Post Office”, in which the Post Office discusses investment in, support for and the modernising of branches, to secure post offices and communities throughout the UK. The document also points out that the Post Office is the fastest growing financial services company in the UK, the No. 1 travel money provider and the sixth largest telephony provider, with almost 0.5 million customers, and talks about a sustainable Crown post office network. That all sounds fine until we get to the reality of the situation of local post offices in any one area. We have Crown post offices on Upper street, Highbury corner and Holloway road, and in Archway. My hon. Friend will talk mainly about the ones on Upper street and Highbury corner, and I will talk about the others. The local authority has tried its damndest at every turn to co-operate with the Post Office to improve the services and to provide a better quality of post office buildings, to the extent of offering a site across the road from the existing Highbury corner post office, which is in an unsatisfactory temporary building—temporary for as long as I can remember, which is more than 35 years. That site is still available for development into a new post office, but the Post Office seems unable to take up what is an amazingly generous offer by the local council to ensure that there is a good-quality service. I hope that the Minister, when she replies, will bear in mind what my hon. Friend and I have to say on such initiatives. Furthermore, the leader of Islington council, Councillor Watts, has written a letter to the Post Office—I will quote from the last part, although my hon. Friend may quote more—in which he stated: 223WH Post Offices (Islington)29 OCTOBER 2013 Post Offices (Islington) 224WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] I will quote from a document given to me by the CWU: “In addition, we are willing to work with Post Office Limited “At the Communities Committee meeting”— to find a home for the post office branch within one of the nearby council buildings on Upper Street.” of the council— The local authority is as co-operative as possible, so “Simon Burman was asked about, but refused to confirm, property costs for Holloway Road. In 2011/12 the branch reported a ‘loss’ tribute should be paid to it for that. of £315,500…£215,000 of this came from property costs; we One problem is some dispute about the figures for think these are excessive… To put these in context, property costs losses or profits made by local branches. The Holloway for London Bridge were £109,000, for Finsbury Park they were branch, which is in my constituency, opposite the Odeon £107,000, for Highbury they were £68,000 and for Islington they on Holloway road, at the end of Tufnell Park road— were £40,000.” sometimes known as Tufnell Park post office—is a very It is strange to have that inflated loss figure being busy building, and queues frequently come out of the offered for the post office on Holloway road, with much door on to the street. Bizarrely, the Post Office claims different figures for other branches. Will the Minister that that branch loses money, which is hard to see when look at the detail of the figures that we have been given? the building is completely full the whole time. The Post Before I hand over to my hon. Friend, I want to draw Office also claimed that the only way in which a post attention to two other post offices and ask the Minister office could be retained on Holloway road—the Holloway for confirmation about them. First, the Crown post post office—is if it is franchised out to someone else. In office at Archway—as far as I am aware, the freehold of other words, it would become the rear counter of a the land is in the hands of the Post Office, although that supermarket, a WH Smith or someone else. There are, remains to be confirmed—is a popular, effective and however, no WH Smith branches anywhere in the whole good local post office. It does not seem to be in a borough, so it is hard to see how it might want to be radically different position from the other three Crown involved. Inevitably, that would mean fewer postal facilities, post offices in the borough. We have had confirmation fewer staff available, even longer queues and much that that post office is secure in the immediate future. I more business lost by the Post Office. should be grateful if the Minister confirmed that and I have a constant frustration on meeting with the Post that there is no threat whatever to the Archway post Office: a lack of imagination and ambition for the office. development of the post office network. It seems to Secondly, the Finsbury Park post office, which is have an agenda of closing down branches and diminishing about 100 metres outside the Islington boundary in the the network, and there is the looming threat—in five borough of Hackney but clearly affects many people year’s time—of what happens if the contract with Royal living in Islington, is incredibly busy, and we are all Mail is not renewed. I hope that the Minister, despite worried that it could be at risk in the closure and the Government’s default position that the Post Office franchising programme. In short, we are speaking on is nothing to do with them—that it is someone else’s behalf of the people of Islington who want to use, enjoy responsibility—will say that she or the Secretary of and support Crown post offices. I wish the Post Office State is prepared to intervene. would show the same determination by providing good- To take the example of Holloway post office, as I quality local services with dedicated staff who are paid said, it is a popular, successful and busy local branch. at the proper rate to deliver those services, instead of At the moment, it has seven full-time and seven part-time reducing us to a counter at the back of a supermarket, people working there, alongside two managers. They which seems to be its current overall agenda. are paid according to the terms and conditions agreed nationally between the CWU and the Post Office. The 11.10 am local staff do a good job—they are very knowledgeable and popular with the local community. When we have Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) had demonstrations outside the post office, the number (Lab): I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Islington of customers who come up to say thank you to the North (Jeremy Corbyn) for securing this debate, which demonstrators for supporting their local post office is is important for Islington. I am delighted, Mr Dobbin, impressive. to serve under your chairmanship today. What happens to the staff during the franchising What has been happening to our post offices in process? They lose their jobs, or they get moved somewhere Islington is a sorry story, and I shall start with the else. The Post Office keeps telling us that everything is Almeida street site. It is a large site in the heart of my okay and that all the staff have been moved to another, constituency. It is bounded on one side by Upper street, remaining Crown post office somewhere else. That seems and surrounded by Moon street, Milner place and to me to be a circle to nowhere, a descent from one Gibson square. It is a very large development area. The Crown office to another, until there is none left and the Post Office somehow managed to sell the site without staff have no choice but to go and work for a franchisee. securing a proper site for another post office. It kept the The franchisees, however, pay staff much less than the post office on Upper street, but is only renting it back. Post Office. I have reports of some cases in which they The post office does not have disabled access and its are paying the minimum wage, or slightly above, for remaining time on that site is limited. It is a Victorian what is extremely skilled work at handling a variety of building; it has been there for ever; it is in the heart of different transactions that the Post Office staff already my patch; and it seems that it will just go. That is the do well. One can only form the impression that what is first problem. really happening is a race to the bottom—losing jobs, The post office on the Upper street site needs to losing facilities and ending up with a post office counter move. We accept and understand that, but the question at the back of a supermarket. is, where will it move to? The other big Crown post 225WH Post Offices (Islington)29 OCTOBER 2013 Post Offices (Islington) 226WH office in my constituency, which borders my hon. Friend’s our face. It must get a grip and show some leadership constituency, is the Highbury Corner site. As hon. and vision. It must move on and build a proper Crown Members have heard, it is only temporary, so the council post office on Upper street that is worthy of the people offered £2 million and a site for a Crown post office of Islington. across the road. In its wisdom, Post Office turned that offer down. Having sold off one site and not secured 11.16 am another, and having turned down £2 million that the council had offered, it is telling us that it does not know The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, wheretomovetoorwhatitcando. Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I welcome the We are told that the post office can move to a site opportunity to discuss post offices in Islington with the opposite the garage on Upper street by the town hall. I hon. Members for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) have said several times that one reason why it needs to and for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), move is the lack of disabled access at the Upper street and I congratulate the hon. Member for Islington North site. Yet, I understand that on the site that it is moving on securing this debate on proposals to change the to the door is of limited size because it is in a conservation Crown post office network and the impact on branches area. It will not be able to have double doors that open in Islington in both constituencies. electronically, which is the ideal for any new site, particularly The hon. Gentleman eloquently set out his concerns when it serves a large disabled and elderly population, and all MPs understand the real issues and worries that as it does. Thankfully, people today do not have ordinary constituents feel when changes are proposed to the post wheelchairs; they have electronic wheelchairs and can office network because it is such a vital part of our local get about. I have grave doubts about disabled access at community infrastructure. That is why we want to ensure the new site, which the post office is moving to, not least that it is preserved and looked after so that it has a because of the lack of disabled access now, and I positive and sustainable future. We all know that there wonder whether there will be disabled access for everyone is heightened local concern following the previous closure or only some people. If the Post Office expects someone programmes in 2003 and 2008. That certainly affected in an electronic wheelchair to push open a door, it is on my constituency, and those of both hon. Members, another planet; it will not work. where four and seven branches respectively closed in Islington North and Islington South and Finsbury. There has been one bad decision on the Almeida site That is why it is important to take a different approach and another on the Highbury Corner one. In addition, and protect the post office network. the council has not given up. It is saying, “Okay, you have refused our £2 million; we are now in a time of We have announced investment of £1.34 billion over austerity and the £2 million has been spent elsewhere. the current Parliament to maintain the post office network But guess what? We are prepared to give you anther at a level of at least 11,500 branches and to modernise £750,000 for another site at Highbury Corner.” The up to 6,000 existing branches by 2015, ensuring that we gauntlet is down, but the Post Office will not accept that improve the service that we offer to customers by addressing offer either. The council has also said. “In the meantime, some of the issues that both hon. Members have raised, if you are trying to build another post office, we can such as the size of queues and the time people must provide you with accommodation.” The council has spend in them. As the hon. Lady rightly said, people do offered accommodation near empty council buildings not have 45 minutes to stand in a queue at a post office. on Upper street, but the Post Office does not seem to That is why some of the changes we are making, including want to move there either. How much more can it try to longer opening hours, should help to put the Post Office destroy its business than it has done over the past five or on a much firmer and more sustainable footing. That 10 years in Islington? If I sound fed up, Mr Dobbin, will enable people to go to the post office at a time that you should hear what my constituents have to say. suits them, and spreading the points at which people may go to the post office will have an impact on The situation is not hopeless. Some post offices work queuing times. perfectly well. I fought hard to save Essex road post office, as some of the Minister’s officials know, and we Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Minister confirm that there secured its future. It has been refurbished and has just is no reason on earth why existing Crown post offices reopened with extended hours, five counters and disabled cannot open for longer hours and that the Communication access. It will do very well and it is exactly the sort of Workers Union is happy to negotiate terms and conditions post office we want. If that can be done in one corner of to accommodate that? my constituency, why can it not be done in its backbone, where we need a Crown post office that will function Jo Swinson: Obviously, all operational matters are for properly. discussion between Post Office Ltd and the relevant My last complaint—I have more, but I am being unions, but longer opening hours are welcome and selective—is that even if a new Crown post office is could be implemented in the existing Crown post office opened opposite the garage, whether it has disabled network. With the post office local and the post office access is a moot point, and there will be only seven main models, longer opening hours are being rolled out counters. There are seven counters at the current post in the rest—and, by far, the bulk—of the network. The office in Upper street and at Highbury Corner. The Post investment that is being put into those branches is being Office intends to try to put a quart into a pint pot with used to secure longer opening hours as part of an the same number of counters at Upper street. People overall new negotiation and deal with those sub-postmasters. already queue outside in the rain at both Highbury They will receive investment and a new way of working Corner and Upper street post offices. People do not go with their branch, but the quid pro quo for that has to to the post office because they do not have 45 minutes be that the opening hours are enhanced, which has an to queue. The Post Office is cutting off its nose to spite additional customer benefit. 227WH Post Offices (Islington)29 OCTOBER 2013 Post Offices (Islington) 228WH

[Jo Swinson] Emily Thornberry: The Minister is being generous in allowing me to intervene again. Is she able to inform us We know that customer satisfaction statistics for the how much money the Post Office made when it sold off new post offices that have been opened show that customer the Almeida site? Surely, that could subsidise post offices satisfaction is significantly increased. The hon. Lady in Islington until the next century. mentioned the newly refurbished post office in Essex road, which she opened just last Friday. I am sure that Jo Swinson: As I am sure the hon. Lady will understand, she found—as I have, when I have opened post offices in I do not have that figure in front of me, but I will my constituency and have been to others around the endeavour to find that information out from Post Office country—that the feedback from customers shows that Ltd and ensure that it is forthcoming to her, if that is they are incredibly welcome. What often happens is that possible within the bounds of commercial confidentiality. a post office, which perhaps was dark, cramped-looking However, the overall picture for the Post Office in terms and not fit for the 21st century, is taken and turned into of revenue is that it is not possible to continue operating something that is much more akin to modern shopping a Crown network that has the kind of losses that have and retail environments, and it will therefore attract been sustained over many years. That is why we are more customers and be more successful. transforming the Crown part of the network with £1.34 billion of Government investment until 2015. We also want to ensure that we put the Post Office on a firm Emily Thornberry: The Minister is right, and may I footing and eliminate the losses in the Crown network plug Essex road post office? It is a fantastic post office by 2015. That is only fair to the taxpayer, who is also and well saved. However, why is the Essex road part of providing significant subsidy, and it is also about good my constituency fit for a proper office, yet we cannot get commercial practice. one on the A1, which is the main street that goes The franchise plans are part of the overall plan to get through my patch? the Crown network to break even. We have chosen 70 individual locations that Post Office Ltd thinks are less likely to be able to become commercially viable Jo Swinson: Obviously, the post office network is without franchising. Those proposals have been put out complex, with a wide range of outlets across the country. for franchise opportunities. The hon. Member for Islington In working out the best locations for all those post North mentioned Archway, which is not in the list offices, Post Office Ltd has to take into account a wide of 70, so there are no plans to franchise that at the range of factors. The post office that the hon. Lady moment. He also mentioned Finsbury park—I am not recently opened in Essex road is under a different kind certain whether that is a Crown office or a different of model of ownership from those at Highbury and on model. Upper street, which are part of the Crown network. The Essex road post office, which has become a main office, Jeremy Corbyn: It is a Crown office. is obviously not part of the Crown network. Jo Swinson: In that case, it is also not on the list of 70, Most customers would be blissfully unaware of the so, again, there are no plans to franchise Finsbury park different structures of different parts of the network. post office either. I hope that that reassures the hon. However, of the some 11,800 branches that exist now, Gentleman. On the point about Holloway road, he about 370 are part of the Crown post office network mentioned that nearby there are no WH Smiths, which and therefore directly operated by the Post Office. The is not the only possible franchise partner, but any franchise- vast majority of post offices are run as sub-post offices specific proposal that will be undertaken in relation to either through franchise agreements, such as through the local situation will also be subject to a further multiple chains—WH Smith has been mentioned, but six-week consultation period when a proposal is brought there are many convenience store multiples—and also forward. The hon. Gentleman and his constituents will by many individual, independent sub-postmasters who have the opportunity to contribute to that. If the proposal run their own post offices in their communities, effectively, is not sensible for that location, Post Office Ltd should as their small businesses. Trying to manage such a take that into account. diverse network brings its own challenges. Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the Minister for giving way; In particular, I want to turn to some challenges she is being generous with her time. In the event that no facing the Crown part of the network. Numerically, franchisee comes forward for Holloway post office—I about 370 post offices out of 11,800 is a small part of understand that none has come forward so far—will she the network, but none the less, it has been responsible guarantee that the post office will remain open and that for a significant proportion of the network’s losses in the staff will retain their jobs at that post office? recent years. Of the post offices that we are discussing today, those on Holloway road, Highbury corner and Jo Swinson: I am not certain whether no franchisee further down Upper street are in the Crown network. In has come forward—my understanding was that there the last full financial year, that part of the network had been interest in all the individual branches—but sustained losses of £37 million, which is a third of the there will not be a sudden withdrawal of the service if a overall losses for the whole network. Those 370 branches suitable franchise is not found. The Post Office has a are, by and large, in busy town and city centre locations, responsibility to ensure that it continues providing the and that situation is unfortunately not sustainable. service where it exists, so it is looking for franchise Ultimately, any retailer that was losing significant money partners to see whether something suitable can be found. on branches in such prime locations would be looking However, if no suitable partner is forthcoming, the Post seriously at how to cut costs to ensure that that part of Office will not be able just to get rid of the existing post its network and operations were, at the very least, office. It would not be possible for it to do that. I hope breaking even. that that reassures the hon. Gentleman. 229WH Post Offices (Islington) 29 OCTOBER 2013 230WH

I turn briefly to the merger of the two Crown post Nuclear Test Veterans offices at the Highbury and Upper street sites. I have seen photographs of them, and hon. Members have pointed out that the temporary portakabin nature of [MR GARY STREETER in the Chair ] the Highbury site is not ideal. The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury talked about disabled 2.30 pm access issues for the existing—and very beautiful—old Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): We Victorian building in Upper street. Looking to merge are very proud of and grateful to the Royal Navy and to those Crown services into a new, much more purpose-built our Vanguard-class submariners, who are on patrol as facility elsewhere on Upper street and between the we speak, for their service to our country. It is right to two—about 420 metres from one post office and 150 recognise that service, but there is a legacy from the metres from the other—should provide much better dawn of our nuclear deterrent that has yet to be fully customer service. recognised and a debt of gratitude that has yet to be I highlight, however, that that is currently subject to a fully acknowledged—that is to our British nuclear test 12-week consultation, which opened earlier this month veterans. and closes on 27 December. I urge any relevant constituents The deterrent that this country now has would not or people who are interested to respond to the consultation. have been possible without the efforts of 20,000 servicemen The fact that the lease for the building on Upper street during the 1950s and 1960s at nuclear tests in the south runs out in March 2014 is relevant, because clearly, we Pacific and Australia. The science at the time was not want to ensure continuity of service provision. I understand well understood. Precautions, therefore, were primitive that the council has made offers, but there is an issue and inadequate, and they often failed to protect individuals about when some of those offers have been forthcoming. from the effects of blast, heat and ionising radiation. The information that I have shows that that has happened Many test veterans believe that their health was adversely incredibly recently, and clearly, plans need to be put in affected by their service. That view has been substantiated place to ensure that the provision is ongoing. by scientific research undertaken relatively recently by I hope that people respond to the consultation and Professor Rowland in New Zealand. That work was that customers in Islington have a new opportunity for peer-reviewed and accepted by the then New Zealand better services from the Crown network, as well as from Government. the other modernised part of it, such as in Essex road, Some years ago, I was contacted by a constituent where the change has clearly been shown to be very about those issues. That initial contact spawned an positive—actually, I think that I visited Essex road post association with the British Nuclear Test Veterans office some years ago. I hope that my comments have Association, which is the largest organisation by far been helpful to both hon. Members here today. that represents both veterans and their descendents. I am pleased to say that I am its patron, and I take this 11.30 am opportunity to commend all those who work for the Sitting suspended. BNTVA, its membership and especially the chairman, Nige Heaps, and the vice-chairman, Jeff Liddiatt. After a long campaign, the BNTVA, I and others in the House persuaded the Ministry of Defence, with the help of the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), to undertake a health needs analysis of surviving veterans. Many helpful and practical measures are being introduced as a result, particularly in relation to a veterans pathway through the NHS. Our first priority was to focus on health, given the age profile of the veterans. Following the success of the health needs analysis, over the summer, the BNTVA, I and others in this place launched the second and final part of our campaign, which essentially involves two main objectives. The first is official recognition from the Prime Minister—preferably orally, but in writing, if not—for the veterans’ unique service. The second part of that campaign, which we are presently in, involves the establishment of a £25 million benevolent fund administered by a board of trustees that would be distributed on the basis of need, not entitlement.

Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter—I apologise, but I will be leaving before the end of the debate, as I have other duties. I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I have at least five survivors and families of survivors from that time in my constituency, and I would be very interested to hear him flesh out more details about the potential funding pot. We have had numerous letters in and 231WH Nuclear Test Veterans29 OCTOBER 2013 Nuclear Test Veterans 232WH

[Heather Wheeler] for the outcome of Sir John’s deliberations. However, that is separate from the campaign that we are discussing out of the MOD since I became an MP in 2010, and I today. am looking for a glimmer of hope that there will be I return to both interventions, in a way, and to the practical measures as well as support, verbal apologies point about how other countries treat their test veterans. and congratulations to the servicemen involved at the It is clear, when looking at the comparisons, that we time. rank towards the bottom of what I would call the international table of decency. Let us take the US for Mr Baron: The benevolent fund that we are discussing example. Our campaign is about recognition, and all would be distributed on the basis of need and not that people have to prove for compensation there is that entitlement, which is terribly important to understand. they were present at a nuclear test—one is sufficient—and That is what differentiates this fund from other recognition there they have a list of more than 100 illnesses. They do or compensation elsewhere. There is often an automatic not have to provide a causal link between the two. entitlement to compensation in other nuclear test countries Providing that someone can prove those two things, if veterans can prove that they were there at the tests they will automatically get compensation—£47,000 for and have suffered ill health. The US is an example, as is the first illness and £47,000 for any secondary attributable Canada, and even the Isle of Man. I shall come on to illness as a bonus. No causal link between service and the point in a minute that we are near the bottom of illness is required; payment is simply automatic. That is what I would call the international table of decency, in in addition to the fact that veterans in the US have terms of how we treat veterans, compared with other access to free health care. countries. Commonwealth countries played a great part in our nuclear tests. Canadians were there in large numbers, Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I and Canada pays some £15,000 to each veteran, in congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. addition to war pensions, and enjoys a health care He does a lot of good work for veterans, in relation not system like the NHS—free at the point of use. Closer to only to nuclear tests, but to reductions in defence forces home, the Isle of Man, which has been supportive of in general. I welcome the proposal for the £25 million our campaign, makes an ex gratia payment of £8,000 to benevolent fund; I think that the suggestion is a practical any resident test veteran, and 17 such payments have one on the basis of need. These veterans made a major been made to date. contribution to understanding the effects of nuclear I stress that our proposals are different from the war. That is very important, and to do that they often comparisons that I have just listed, because the £25 million sacrificed their health, and they are still suffering for it would be distributed on the basis of need, not entitlement. today. I find it very strange that, in this country, we That is why it is important to stress the ex gratia nature always have continual battles to get recognition for of the payment. There is no admission of liability; no veterans. Some years ago, it was about getting recognition admission of guilt. The benevolent fund would be there for the merchant navy during the war. I do not know to help veterans and their descendants who need help what it is about this country, but we seem to be falling with their care and treatment. The fact that someone is behind everybody else in recognising the contribution a veteran does not necessarily mean that they would that people have made on our behalf. I hope that we do gain access to the fund in question. not make the same mistakes with the veterans of I urge the Minister, when considering the proposals, Afghanistan in future. to look further afield again. I remind her that in the 1990s this country made an ex gratia payment to Australia Mr Baron: Having served myself, I sympathise with that just so happened to be for the exact sum of £25 million, what the hon. Gentleman says and I understand the and that payment was made in compensation for having campaigns that he mentions. This is one of the key undertaken tests in Australia. It was the equivalent sum points that we wish to make about the benevolent fund: of money, and if it is good enough for Australia, I do if we look at other countries—I shall come on to this not see why it is not good enough for our own test very briefly—and compare how they treat their test veterans. I remind the Minister that Australia already veterans, we rank very near the bottom. However, I offers a generous pension to its test veterans. suggest to the Minister—this is where there has been confusion in the MOD before—that the payment should Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): I very much be ex gratia; in other words, there would be no admission appreciate the work that my hon. Friend has put into of liability. There has been some confusion within the this. Does he agree that the test veterans, by far and MOD that the BNTVA, as an organisation, has been away, will be better supported by the £25 million fund involved in litigation through the courts, when that has that he has talked about than the Australian Government? not been the case. If we look at other countries that In other words, their need is greater than that Government’s have made ex gratia payments, we see that the case ever was. Does he also agree that, with ex gratia payments, being made very much stacks up. There would be no far less administrative time, effort and money would admission of guilt or liability, but it would put right an have to be put in by the Ministry of Defence and other injustice. state bodies in disbursing that money than if compensation It is important to reinforce that point. The campaign was based on a careful assessment of all the criteria organised by the BNTVA, other hon. Members and I implied by a strict compensation scheme? has been very much focused on Parliament and not on taking this issue through the courts. Perhaps I should Mr Baron: I agree completely. The benevolent fund also add that the BNTVA has put in a submission to the would be administered by a board of trustees; it would medal review led by Sir John Holmes, and it is waiting be an established charity. It would be up to them to 233WH Nuclear Test Veterans29 OCTOBER 2013 Nuclear Test Veterans 234WH distribute the funds, as I said, on the basis of need, not Mr Baron: I completely agree. What has been striking entitlement, and the payments would be ex gratia. Therefore, in discussing this issue with test veterans has been their there would be no admission of liability or guilt. dedication to duty for their country, but also the fact Perhaps we need to focus on progress with the that they have less concern about their own well-being Government to date, during the second phase of the and more concern about their descendants. That is an campaign, which was launched only on 11 June here in important point for the Minister to take on board. Parliament. We also had a superb art exhibition on the We should never forget, either, that it was a unique theme of the veterans’ experiences during the tests. service by these veterans in many respects. The science Some of the pieces were created by the descendants was unknown and the risks were unquantifiable, but the themselves. Progress since 11 June has been somewhat cost to the veterans and their descendants was very slow. I had a meeting with my right hon. Friend the severe indeed. Official recognition—I stress that we are Minister of State, who was then responsible for veterans. talking about recognition, not compensation, as I hope I had a brief meeting with my right hon. Friend the that I have made clear in relation to the second phase of Prime Minister. I wrote to the Prime Minister. I have our campaign—of this unique service and contribution now received a response, and there are warm words to our defence is therefore only right. If the Government about the role of the nuclear test veterans, but there is continue to fail to recognise that, they fail not only our no sympathy for the idea of a benevolent fund at all. veterans but their descendents, and they fail to lift the What the Prime Minister did mention was the war veil of shame that almost uniquely hangs over this pensions scheme, and no doubt the Minister will address country. The time for action is now. Warm words are no at length the generosity of that scheme when it comes to longer enough. our veterans generally, but many test veterans—I must say this to her—have found the system not sympathetic 2.48 pm to their cause. War pensions are fine on paper, but time Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): It is a pleasure to and again, veterans find that the system is stacked serve with you in the Chair, Mr Streeter. I congratulate against them. A recent questionnaire of BNTVAmembers the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) revealed that 90% had seen their application for a war on securing the debate and on the way in which he has pension declined. For one thing, with claims made mobilised support both inside and outside Parliament seven years after leaving service, the burden of proof is for a very important cause: recognising the contribution on the claimant to show that the illness or injury was of these professionals to this country’s safety—a safety caused by service; for another, the system is time consuming that we continue to benefit from today. and complicated for these elderly veterans, even when successful. The perception is that they are still having to At one of the first surgeries that I held when I became take on the system. As if to illustrate the point, a British a Member of Parliament, two gentlemen who were lady received payment from the US for the role that her nuclear veterans, David McIntyre and Peter Barnard, British husband played, while flying for the RAF, during came to see me. They were concerned to press their case one of the American nuclear tests. She had been repeatedly in the most modest way. They want no recognition in refused a war widow’s pension in this country, but the sense of what we normally think of as recognition. managed to get a payment from the US authorities. They just want things to be put right and to be treated The Government, including the Minister, should be like anyone else who has served their country in the in no doubt that we will not walk away from this right way. campaign. On 27 November, veterans and their descendants Mr Barnard described what it was like on Christmas will march on Parliament to draw attention to the Island observing the explosion and the scene. As the cause. We are determined to see this through. In welcoming hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay described in the Minister to her new post, may I urge her to reconsider answer to the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin our campaign? After all, the Government have a very Vickers), those men and women, service personnel at good record of recognising just causes and righting past the time, did not realise the danger that they were in and wrongs—mesothelioma and thalidomide victims are it was not clear. It has become clear only later, as events just two examples. The nuclear test veterans fit into unfurled. both categories. I suggest that we do owe our veterans a What is being asked for as part of the campaign for debt of gratitude for helping to ensure our safety. Many recognition is only proper and correct. It would be a people would argue that they were instrumental in good statement if all parties in the House recognised helping us to win the cold war. the service that those men and women performed. Treating people who have served their country properly would Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I congratulate begin to bring us into line with other nations that have my hon. Friend on his leadership of this campaign. tackled the same issue. It is merely a question of stepping While we are talking about the calibre of the individuals, up to the plate. I recognise and pay tribute to the I want to mention one gentleman in my constituency, leadership that has been shown, and I hope that who I suspect would prefer not to be named. When I Government and Opposition respond to the challenge. went to see him, he outlined his service during the nuclear tests. He was obviously unaware of the dangers 2.51 pm at the time, but he told me—this shows the calibre of individual we are talking about—that had he known the Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): dangers, he would still have done it for the good of his It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, country, because he thought that it was essential. That Mr Streeter. I congratulate the hon. Member for Basildon shows the calibre of these people. We can show that we and Billericay (Mr Baron) not only on securing today’s have a debt of gratitude without, as my hon. Friend debate, but on all the work that he has done in recent correctly said, needing to show a causal link. years on this important issue. 235WH Nuclear Test Veterans29 OCTOBER 2013 Nuclear Test Veterans 236WH

[Gemma Doyle] The proposed financial settlement is in the form of a benevolent fund. Members may be aware that the hon. I recognise the vital job that all our armed forces do Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), the former and that all our veterans have done for us and the veterans’ Minister, authorised a financial settlement country, including the nuclear test veterans. I recognise proposal. The nuclear test veterans involved in the case the unique nature of their service. I regret the worry and at the time were not made aware of the offer, and uncertainty that they have experienced in the years since disappointingly, it appears that the lawyers acting on their service. Whatever the facts, it is highly regrettable behalf of the veterans rejected the offer without putting that we have ended up in the situation that we are in it to them. today. It is clear from the comments made that there is a lot of good will and a desire to see an outcome, but Mr Baron: I am pleased that the hon. Lady made that there is also frustration that it has not been achieved. point about the lawyers. As I am sure that she is aware, I shall refer to that point in a few moments. she is referring to the legal proceedings outside this place, in which the BTNVA has never participated. It I was delighted to meet representatives from the has been criticised for not participating by those outside. British Nuclear Test Veterans Association earlier this It is important to make the distinction. year in Brighton. I am grateful to those from the group who took the time to host a reception and exhibition Gemma Doyle: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman there. The art exhibition “Shadow of the Bomb” is for putting that on the record. It is important that we extremely powerful and helps to convey the spectrum of look at the issue, rather than at particular groups emotion and feelings with which the test veterans and, representing people. I appreciate the distinction, which indeed, their families live. It helped me to understand is why earlier in my remarks I said that the situation is that the fear of what might happen, what might have regrettable because we could by now have come to some happened and the fear of the unknown can, in a different sort of settlement or agreement. I fear that lawyers have way, have debilitating effects on some veterans, almost prevented that from happening. If an agreement had as great as a physical illness. That is also true for their been reached then, an agreement about the wider issues children and grandchildren. We can all appreciate that would also have been possible. I understand that the those are horrible doubts and fears to have to carry legal route has now been exhausted and no avenues to around. We have to spend only a short time speaking to pursue remain. the veterans to get a sense of deep uneasiness about their experiences. One image that stuck in my mind was I appreciate that the reins on the public purse are of those carrying out the tests being covered from head tightly held at the moment, but could the Minister look to foot in protective clothing, while the serving personnel, at whether it is possible to allocate money from the as the veterans were then, went about their work just in LIBOR fund, because that money is already set aside, shorts. to kick-start a benevolent fund? There are many demands on the fund and applications to it have been made, but it The events took place in the 1950s, and just as they would be an obvious source of money that could be do now, service personnel signed up and did what was released quickly and easily. Nothing will ever take away asked of them, without question and with 100% the worry and uncertainty about the impact of the tests, commitment. They did so alongside individuals carrying but if something can be done to help to draw a line and out their national service, who had not volunteered to help the veterans move forward, we should certainly be there, but they did what was asked of them with just consider it. as much commitment. Another difference between then and today is that there is far more scrutiny today of 2.59 pm what we ask our service personnel to do and how they are treated, as shown by the recent discussions on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence whether human rights laws and the concept of negligence (Anna Soubry): It is a pleasure to serve under your should apply to service personnel on operations and in chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Streeter. I congratulate what circumstances. my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on securing the debate. I pay tribute to all Times have changed markedly since the 1950s, when those who have contributed: the hon. Members for there was far less external scrutiny of the treatment of Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and for Coventry South our forces and probably less awareness on the part of (Mr Cunningham), and my hon. Friends the Members the serving personnel themselves about whether what for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) and for they were being asked to do was unreasonable. We Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and my right hon. Friend would now, rightly, find troubling the prospect of the the Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell). deliberate testing of radiation on people who had signed up to protect and defend their country, who did not This subject evokes considerable passion among some, have full knowledge of the implications or the option to perhaps even many, people. We have heard the veterans’ say no or ask questions. cause argued with that passion yet again by my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay, and he As the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay is right to do so. Members should bring issues that are outlined, the BNTVAis looking for two things: recognition dear to their hearts to this place, so that we can debate of what happened and their service; and the possibility them and causes and ideas can be advanced, only for of some sort of financial settlement. I hope that the Ministers then to say too often, unfortunately, “Well, it debate today goes some way towards providing the all sounds very good, but I am afraid I don’t agree with recognition sought, but I appreciate that that desire you, and I’m afraid that at the moment this proposal is for recognition to come from a more high-profile will not advance particularly far within Government. source. We’ve made our position clear.” 237WH Nuclear Test Veterans29 OCTOBER 2013 Nuclear Test Veterans 238WH

Before I explain why that is, I want to make something participants carried out by the independent National absolutely clear. It seemed to be suggested that the Radiological Protection Board. The three studies were Government have not acknowledged the significant role conducted and published over a 20-year period, beginning played by the men and women who participated in the in 1983 and finishing in 2003. Overall levels of cancer nuclear test programme. My hon. Friend quite properly incidence and mortality were similar to those in matched mentioned a letter written to him by the Prime Minister. service controls, and death rates from all causes were I repeat some of the Prime Minister’s words, because I lower than expected from national rates. cannot put it as eloquently as he did: On specific cancers, there was some evidence of a “This Government continues to recognise the servicemen who raised risk of certain leukaemias, but the researchers participated in the British nuclear testing programme. Their concluded that it was due to chance rather than radiation contribution ensured that the UK was equipped with an appropriate exposure. The Government has every confidence in nuclear deterrent during the cold war, which thankfully we never those independent studies. Accordingly, we believe that needed to use.” there are no grounds for paying compensation to British To be absolutely clear, I do not hesitate to acknowledge nuclear test veterans as a group. the hugely significant role played by all those veterans, and I pay tribute to all who participated in the programme. In 2010, the MOD commissioned a health needs We owe them a huge debt of gratitude. audit of all BNTVA veteran members resident in the UK. The survey, which had a return rate of 71%, asked Mr Baron: I do not doubt the Minister’s genuineness respondents to self-report on serious illnesses and long-term on this issue, or indeed the Prime Minister’s. The letter conditions diagnosed by a doctor since their participation that the Minister read out was a response to me. All test in the nuclear tests. Overall, the range and severity of veterans would welcome a statement from the Prime problems reported was typical of older people in the Minister addressed to them, officially recognising their UK in general. Whatever their health experience, most role and our debt of gratitude to them. We would prefer respondents indicated that, in general, they felt that it to be given orally—perhaps in a statement in the their health care needs were being met very well by the House—but if not, a written statement would go a long NHS; primary care services were particularly well regarded. way towards ticking that box, rather than just giving My hon. Friend referred to the Rowland report. I am part of a response to me about a wider issue in the reliably informed that the report, published in a specialist campaign. genetics journal, concerned a laboratory-based study of peripheral blood lymphocytes—I apologise for my Anna Soubry: It is not for me to say what the Prime pronunciation, which may not be great—that were taken Minister should or should not do, but he has written in in the mid-1990s from 50 New Zealand naval veterans clear terms to my hon. Friend, who I assume shared the who had been on weather ships 50 to 100 km from the letter with all those in the association. However, I detonation centre of Operation Grapple in 1957-58. understand—he will correct me if I am wrong—that Dr Rowland reported the findings of three cytogenetic not all those who participated in the test programme tests. Two showed no difference between the veterans necessarily belong to the association. I am now putting and matched control groups. The third showed an it on record, in Hansard, for all to see and to broadcast elevated translocation frequency in the peripheral blood to all veterans the Prime Minister’s clear acknowledgement lymphocytes—I am more than happy to share that in and tribute to those veterans, as well as his plain English with my hon. Friend—of the veterans acknowledgement of the great service that they did our compared with the control group. country. The sample size was acknowledged to be small, and there has been some doubt about the suitability of the Mr Baron: That is very much my point. The Prime control group. Known possible causes of increased Minister’s response was to me. Not every test veteran is translocation include ageing and cigarette smoke as a member of the British Nuclear Test Veterans Association. well as ionising radiation. The report emphasises that Although I welcome the Minister’s warm words of the study makes no comment on the health status of the acknowledgement and gratitude and I do not doubt her veterans. At this time, such cytogenetic tests are not in genuine intent, a statement to all test veterans from the routine clinical use, because no relationship has been Prime Minister, preferably orally but if necessary in shown between any genetic abnormality and health writing, would cost nothing and would tick that box, effects or clinical state. and it would be gratefully received by all concerned. Mr Baron: May I return to the health needs analysis? Anna Soubry: I will ensure that the Prime Minister I am pleased that the hon. Member for North Durham hears my hon. Friend’s words. He will then decide how (Mr Jones) has now taken his seat, as I paid him a he may or may not be able to advance the matter. compliment earlier by suggesting that he was instrumental However, I think that my having read out the letter so in helping us get the health needs analysis, which was that it can be publicly recorded in Hansard goes a our campaign’s first objective. The veterans of the BNTVA considerable way towards making it absolutely clear have found it helpful as a pathway to guide them that the Prime Minister acknowledges the great work through the NHS. done and why it was so important. To return to the science briefly, we can argue about it. As we know, for many years, veterans of the nuclear Professor Rowland’s report was peer-reviewed and was tests have claimed that their health has been damaged accepted by the New Zealand Government of the time; by exposure to ionising radiation. The Ministry of the Minister should not skirt over that too lightly. The Defence has consistently rejected those claims on the point that I am suggesting to her is that, compared with basis of the findings of three comprehensive studies on other countries that have test veterans, we are near the cancer incidence and mortality among nuclear test bottom of the table in terms of how we treat them. 239WH Nuclear Test Veterans29 OCTOBER 2013 Nuclear Test Veterans 240WH

[Mr Baron] a link to service is raised on the basis of reliable evidence. However, in fact, nuclear test veterans in Australia face Surely, there is a moral obligation to consider where a tougher test, which is set out in the legislation. For Britain fits in. In many other countries, veterans do not example, for cancer of the bladder, veterans must have have to establish a causal link between being at the tests received a cumulative dose of at least 100 mSv of and ill health. Compensation comes automatically, although ionising radiation a number of years before clinical I stress once again that I am not arguing for compensation onset, while there is no such requirement in the UK in this case; I am asking for recognition, as highlighted. scheme. My hon. Friend mentioned the Isle of Man scheme. Anna Soubry: I am interested by that intervention. The Isle of Man decided to award £8,000 to nuclear test My hon. Friend now seems to be saying that we should veterans, with no proof of medical causation required. put the science to one side, because it perhaps does not That is, of course, a matter for the Manx Parliament. suit his argument, but the science is absolutely clear. The UK Government rightly have an evidence-based However, I am more than happy to turn now to the policy. They also strive to provide value for money for comparison of international provisions for nuclear test the taxpayer, which the Isle of Man has less need to be veterans. concerned with, because it has made only two payments. Mr Baron: Will the Minister give way? Mr Baron: Our central argument is not to put the Anna Soubry: I will deal with this first, and then I will science to one side, as the Minister suggested. We can be more than happy to give way. I hope that I can set the argue about the science, and both sides will be able to record absolutely straight. draw justification for their particular line. The Rowland report was certainly peer reviewed and accepted by the Comparisons of provisions in the United Kingdom New Zealand Government of the day, so it cannot be and other countries can be very misleading. We are not easily discarded by the Minister. at the bottom, and I do not want these good people, who have served our country so well, to feel that they Let me return, however, to what I call the international are in some way being short-changed and that an advantage table of decency. The Minister needs to check what is being given to test veterans from other countries. I happens with regard to US veterans, because those who will go through some of the other schemes. turn up at a veterans’ hospital have access to free health Let us talk about America. The compensation scheme care. In addition, there does not have to be a causal link offered by the United States Department of Veterans between being at the tests and one of a series of illnesses— Affairs must be seen in the context of the United States mostly cancer, but other illnesses, too. health care system, which, as we know, is not free. The Minister also mentioned Canada; again, no causal Access to veterans’ health care is for those with service- link is required, but it is clear that the payment is there connected disability of a certain level, and it is means-tested to be made. Likewise, the Minister is slightly incorrect, for all veterans, including atomic veterans. I would or disingenuous at least, to suggest that we can simply therefore argue that is not as good as the scheme in our discard the example of the Isle of Man. She says that country. only two payments have been made, but she also needs to check that figure, because my evidence suggests that Mr Baron: Will the Minister give way? 17 have been made to date.

Anna Soubry: No. I am so sorry. I will be happy to Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. Before I call give way at the end, but I want to go through all these the Minister, may I repeat the obvious point that other countries to put the record straight. interventions should be brief? Let us look at the compensation scheme run by the Canadian Government. It was run for just one year—from 2008 until 2009—and it was principally designed for Anna Soubry: That is what I am told. If my hon. approximately 900 personnel involved in the clean-up of Friend is saying that it is not true, we will get it sorted the Chalk River radiation leak, without reference to any out and we will find out. My information is that there illness or injury. If I may say so, therefore, its relevance have been two payments. He misses the point about the to our nuclear test veterans is, at best, peripheral. American system, which is that it is means-tested, while ours is not. I have made my point about Canada, where In France, nuclear test veterans have been eligible for the scheme applied to 900 personnel involved in a compensation only since 2009, and they were not consulted clean-up after a radiation leak. I would therefore suggest on the design of the scheme now in existence. As a that there is no comparison to be made in relation result, although it may appear more generous than the nuclear test veterans. UK’s war pensions scheme, which I will describe later, the scheme in France demands a greater burden of On the science, my hon. Friend relies on one report, proof of a link to service. If I may say so, it would do, and I have made my comments about it. I rely on three because it was introduced only in 2009. As a result, we reports, which have been done over many years, and I believe only one award has been made in France, which know of no one who challenges their findings. speaks volumes about that scheme. It is a similar story in Australia, where the compensation Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I apologise scheme operates in part on the basis of a reasonable for not being here earlier, but I was in another meeting. hypothesis. Again, that may appear, at first blush, to be Does the Minister agree that the issue with the Rowland more generous than the terms of our war pensions study, which I have read on several occasions, is that scheme, which demands only that a reasonable doubt of although it found radiation could, in some cases, cause 241WH Nuclear Test Veterans29 OCTOBER 2013 Nuclear Test Veterans 242WH chromosome abnormality, it did not—this is the important anything special, when those are very much automatic next step—show that those chromosomal changes led in other countries, and there is compensation on top of to cancer? that.

Anna Soubry: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Anna Soubry: I have made my comments about the for providing that information. That is another compelling so-called league table, and have relied on the information argument in relation to the science. I have been supplied with, but I do not believe that our I want to make it absolutely clear that it gives no one nuclear test veterans are at the bottom of any league any pleasure to stand up and to have to talk about these table. I certainly do not believe that our record is things, because it sounds as if no one cares. On the shameful. contrary, those of us who do not agree with my hon. The Government’s second reason for remaining unable Friend and the £25 million fund that he advances do so to support a benevolent fund concerns the comparison not because we do not care, but because we know what that my hon. Friend has made with compensation the science says and because—I certainly take this view—we packages provided abroad. I hope that I have dealt with have to set this issue in the context of all our veterans, all that. My hon. Friend mentioned the sum—it is so that we do justice by everyone. We must always be actually £20 million—given by the UK Government as careful not to be seen in any way to single out one group compensation to the Australian Government in the and put it above another. 1990s. We should be clear about why that money was I really take issue with the idea that we are somehow made over. The £20 million was ex gratia and was given being shameful, or that we are in any way wrong, in our to the Australian Government to contribute to the total attitude to our nuclear test veterans. That is not the cost of rehabilitating the test sites in Australia. Payments case. The existing scheme is good, fair and, arguably, were made in instalments, the last being made in 1998. I generous, and it is one we should be proud of. Of course do not want it to be suggested that the Government one could always argue that anyone in receipt of any somehow advantaged veterans or other people who form of compensation or benefit should have more, but served in the forces in Australia. what we have at the moment is fair and generous. The Government hold the view that to create a benevolent Let me come on to our scheme, because it is important fund would be tacitly to accept liability for which no to put on the record that any veteran who believes they legal grounds exist. That was demonstrated in the atomic have suffered ill health due to service has the right to veterans group litigation for damages against the MOD apply for no-fault compensation. We therefore have a in 2006. In 2009, 10 lead cases were allowed to proceed no-fault compensation scheme under the war pensions to a full trial on causation, at the judge’s discretion, scheme. Where there is reliable evidence that disablement under the Limitation Act 1980; normally, there is a is due to service, a war pension is awarded, with the three-year statute of limitations on personal injury claims. benefit of reasonable doubt always given to the claimant. The MOD appealed, and in 2010 the Court of Appeal Nuclear test veterans are no different, and war pensions overturned the High Court ruling in all respects, except are paid to claimants for disorders accepted in principle for one case. In arriving at its judgment, the court also as being caused by radiation, where the evidence raises considered the merits of the claims in terms of causation a reasonable doubt of service-related radiation exposure. and concluded that their general merits were extremely In addition, awards are made automatically to nuclear weak. test veterans who developed certain leukaemias within 25 years of participating in the tests. For some, therefore, there is an automatic entitlement, which is absolutely Mr Baron: The Minister has been generous in giving right. Again, that begins to move us up that so-called way, which is appreciated in a debate of this sort. league table, if, as some would argue, such a table exists. Payment to a benevolent fund would not necessarily be It should be noted, however, that in May this year the an admission of liability. An ex gratia payment makes first-tier tribunal, the war pensions and armed forces no admission of liability or guilt. We need to make that compensation chamber, delivered a decision in a group clear. The Government have made ex gratia payments action of 14 nuclear test veterans’ war pension appeals. to other countries, as the Minister readily admits. The majority of the appeals were rejected. The tribunal found material exposure where appellants undertook Anna Soubry: I must throw that back to my hon. work in forward areas or otherwise came into contact Friend and ask him for what purpose he wants a benevolent with radiation, but not in relation to the majority of the fund. Is he saying that the nuclear test veterans’ need is bystander appellants. The decisions of the tribunal greater than that of other groups of veterans? What support the MOD’s current policy relating to claims for would the payment redress? a war pension made by nuclear test veterans. Mr Baron: I am pleased that we are clarifying this. To Mr Baron: The veterans have made it clear that they repeat what I said earlier, the payments would be dispensed find the war pensions process time-consuming and arduous, on the basis of need, to help with care and treatment, even when they are successful. We talk about success not on the basis of entitlement. Not all veterans would rates, but 90% of the veterans membership have failed receive it, but it would be recognition of the fact that to get a war pension. their service was in many respects unique, that the As for the international table, the compensation payments science was at the time unknown and that the risk was in the USA, Canada and so on—although I am focusing unquantifiable. Let us not forget that those servicemen on recognition, not compensation—are made in addition were doing national service; that is an important factor. to war pensions that are already given to veterans. We In many respects their service was unique, and we should not paint this country’s war pensions as doing should recognise that. 243WH Nuclear Test Veterans 29 OCTOBER 2013 244WH

Anna Soubry: I do not think that that is the strongest Flood Defences (Thurnham, Lancashire) of cases. We know what the science tells us. If the view is advanced that the group of veterans in question—and I 3.56 pm pay tribute to their service—should have the money just because they did that work on the country’s behalf, I Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): can hear that being advanced by all manner of other It is a pleasure, Mr Streeter, to serve under your veterans groups with equal force. chairmanship and to welcome the Minister to his post. I congratulate him on his appointment; I am sure his Mr Kevan Jones: When I was a Minister, I authorised response at the end of this debate will show him to be a a settlement proposal, because in my opinion large wise and listening Minister. amounts of public money should not be wasted on Thurnham is a small part of the parish of Glasson lawyers when the case could be settled without the Dock, on the edge of Morecambe bay. The sea defences question of liability. Unfortunately, the settlement that are situated in the Cockerham and Thurnham areas of I authorised was rejected by the lawyers involved. I am north-west Lancashire, running approximately 7.7 km sorry, but I think that it was the individual veterans’ from Cocker Bridge on the A558 in the south to Janson best chance of getting a large amount of compensation. Pool in the north, south-west of the port of Glasson. The figure stretched to several million pounds. They form an integral part of the west Lancashire coastal defences, providing protection against tidal Anna Soubry: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend— inundation from what is essentially the estuary of the there is no harm in my calling him that—who raises an river Lune as it goes into Morecambe bay. important point, which has already been explored, quite The area has been subject to flooding damage through properly. I was shocked by it. I do not know the details, overtopping and breaching of the existing defences in but I have experience as a criminal barrister and know the past. The most recent floods occurred in 1977, when that every lawyer is under a duty to consult the client approximately 540 hectares of land were affected, and first. No lawyer ever makes the decision—although, in 1983 and 1990, when approximately 50 hectares were apparently, in the case in question, very unusually, that flooded. As one can tell from the description, it is was what happened. The client provides the instructions mainly a lowland mixed farming area, with sheep and and makes the decision. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman some dairy. There are also important tourist facilities in and I should talk about those events after the debate. I the form of caravan parks, scattered residential housing should like to know more. and one listed monument in the remains of Cockersands I was talking about a case that went to the Court of abbey. Appeal, where the general merits of the claims were In 1999, Jacobs Engineering completed a business found to be extremely weak. On appeal, the Supreme case for Cockersands sea defences, which proposed a Court ruled in March 2012, on a majority decision, in “hold the line” option. In January 2004, a reappraisal of favour of the MOD. Significantly, all the justices, even the economic business case to refurbish the existing those dissenting, recognised that the veterans would defences was undertaken by Jacobs. It concluded that face extreme difficulties proving causation. That brings no capital scheme could be promoted, although it us back to the science. recommended that further options, including managed The MOD continues to recognise the concerns of realignment or continued maintenance, could provide a nuclear test veterans—I am always prepared to listen better business case. and like to think that I have an open mind, although I In November 2004, a further study was undertaken have spoken frankly this afternoon. However, there is to consider the recommendations of the economic no medical or legal evidence to support calls for reappraisal, and that determined that a managed retreat compensation of the veterans as a group—and I hear scheme could be the right economic method, even when what my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and all the land and buildings were written off from tidal Billericay says about seeking a benevolent fund, not a inundation and purchased at their market value. In compensation fund. Any veteran who believes that service arriving at the conclusions, Jacobs recommended that a has had an impact on their health can submit a war physically based model to simulate onshore tidal inundation pension claim. Where the evidence supports their claim, and onshore wave inundation for different return periods we will provide financial compensation. However, recent was undertaken as its conclusions were limited by the legal cases have shown that the incidence of that is far quality of the available flood spread information. lower than many veterans organisations claim. Consequently, maintenance activities continued, in The argument for a £25 million benevolent fund to line with the original recommendations from the shoreline compensate veterans and family members affected by management plan. In January 2008, Jacobs completed a ionising radiation is flawed. The UK’s existing health, technical report, investigating the effects of tidal flooding social and welfare support for its citizens and the specific should the existing defences be removed, as well as the support for all veterans make it unnecessary. Indeed, several managed realignment options identified in the when we consider the public investment in the NHS and 2004 studies. In 2009-10, the shoreline management in the social and welfare fields, it can be argued that the plan was updated by Halcrow and recommended that a financial value of that support far exceeds the monetary “hold the line” policy should be adopted for years value of any compensation payment that the Government nought to 20, followed by managed realignment for would pay. years 20 to 100. The shoreline management plan updated the economic appraisal in line with the latest guidance. 3.29 pm I have raised this debate because I am trying to Sitting suspended. establish something. Since 2010, there has been a series of meetings between Environment Agency officers on 245WH Flood Defences (Thurnham, 29 OCTOBER 2013 Flood Defences (Thurnham, 246WH Lancashire) Lancashire) the ground and the Cockersands Forum steering group, depredations of the sea and whatever we can predict which was established by the parish council. All those about the sea and rivers in 30 years’ time. So the strange meetings have been open and transparent, and shared position is that although residents, to my knowledge information has gone backwards and forwards, but we and that of the Environment Agency, have demonstrated are now getting to the point where certain fundamental that a bigger area will be flooded in the future, that will policy decisions need to be made by Ministers if we are not affect the cost-benefit analysis. to make any kind of progress. One of the key determinants appears to be the cost- The Cockersands Forum steering group, which is benefit figure that the Treasury established in respect of formed of residents, considered that the flood defence losing farming land in particular. I understand that this rebuild costs that were put in by the Environment is a long-established Treasury figure, which takes no Agency were inflated, and that the reports of the account of rising population, both here and across the overtopping events from past flooding were inconsistent world, or of the increased concern that we all have—in with their own knowledge of the history of what had whatever country we live—about food security. happened. Interestingly, I understand that in the middle I wish to ask a particular question of the Minister. If of the discussions between the agency and the local my assumptions are correct about this cost-benefit analysis, residents, through the forum, when the sea defences are his Department or the Treasury, or both, doing any were looked at properly and people walked them, the work to look again at revising the old cost-benefit of agency was prepared to admit that the defences were farming land, given the national situation in terms of in a better state of repair than was perhaps first population growth and the political concerns among all apparent. parties about food security? The discussions have got to the point where the Secondly, let us take the boundaries of my constituency Environment Agency has been prepared to say that it and that particular part of the west coast of Lancashire. will hold the line for 30 years. That was something At the end of my constituency is the town of Fleetwood, better. Clearly, however, the fact that the defences will where the Government have just agreed—I am grateful be maintained for only that amount of time will have a for it—that £65 million is to be used to improve flood significant impact on the value of residential homes defences. The Rossall sea wall needs to be demolished and businesses. How can people in this area now sell or so that a new wall can be put in. It will protect 12,000 invest for the future, knowing that there is possibly a homes. 30-year time limit, after which the defences will not be manned? The issue for them is this: how can any However, from the outside it looks as if the Lancashire Government simply let good farming land, good housing coast is being dealt with in separate sections. Fleetwood, and good businesses be slowly ruined, based on assumptions quite rightly, gets £65 million; the sea wall there needs about possible sea levels in 30 years’ time? attending to. If anyone sees that sea wall, they will know that it is like the Berlin wall. The poor residents It seems ridiculous that lives can be ruined on such need something that might look better and might do a speculation when there is no exact science, yet the plans better job. However, just along the coast, there is another in place already mean that there is blight in the specific village called Pilling, where I have regular meetings. area and particular residents are unable to sell their Again, that is a lowland area, next to Thurnham, where properties, despite wanting to move on because of age there are also concerns about flooding and land drainage. or family circumstances. In a sense, it is a death knell to Yet at the Pilling meetings, there is no mention of what Thurnham and the surrounding area that there can be is happening next door in Thurnham. That might be no movement in and no movement out. because Thurnham comes under Lancaster district council The residents are practical people; as you and the and Pilling comes under Wyre district council. Nevertheless, Minister well know, Mr Streeter, we are all practical it seems a bit odd, because my understanding of water people in Lancashire. So the residents took the matter is that when it comes through the dykes or over or further and looked at all the past evidence they had, in through the sea defences, it does not worry whether it is the form of photographs and written evidence, about flooding Pilling or Thurnham, which are next to each the 1977 flood. They came up with an extremely other. sophisticated diagram of what had happened in that One question that I have for the Minister has already year. What they proved to the Environment Agency—to been asked by people in local parishes—what happened be fair, the agency accepted it—was that it was possible to the old land drainage boards, which used to cover to see in some of the historical detail that the flooding wider areas? Also, is there a bureaucratic impasse because covered a much wider area than was set out in the of different council boundaries? Do we need to consider original Environment Agency plan. That, at least, is my a better structure in the long term? That might not be understanding. the land drainage structure of the old days, which I Now we are in a strange position. My understanding understand was somewhat bureaucratic—but at least it is that the Environment Agency has accepted that local involved local landowners, on a wider scale, in the residents, through their knowledge of history and what nature of drainage and flooding of their areas. they have produced, have demonstrated that if the Will the Minister consider looking at a different defences go down, a much wider area will be flooded vehicle, which could involve, yes, the parishes, villages than was set out in its original statement. However, and local residents in some form or fashion and enable strangely enough, that does not affect any of the agency’s them to cut across the district councils and look at land cost-benefit analysis between its original assumptions drainage areas as they are—that is, as geographical and its present-day assumptions. It still wishes to stick drainage areas that do not respect council boundaries? to a policy of “hold the line” for 30 years and after that Perhaps we could deal with some kind of operation in to manage retreat, leaving the area, as I have said, to the those terms. 247WH Flood Defences (Thurnham, 29 OCTOBER 2013 Flood Defences (Thurnham, 248WH Lancashire) Lancashire) [Eric Ollerenshaw] simply need a parish rate and a parish flood defence rate. I do not know. I assume that when searches are My understanding is that there has been some discussion made, the council charge and parish charge come up, on the east coast of this country about such schemes, so perhaps we could come up with a flood defence and that there are still some leftover remnants of the old charge. land drainage boards around the place. They might give As I said, this is blue-sky thinking. The residents have us some pilot schemes to see whether the boards could jobs to do, and we are all trying to find a practical way be revamped in the ways I have outlined. to assist Government and the Environment Agency. It What the people of my constituency, in my part of would be really helpful if some of the experts, who I Lancashire, are looking for is a wider look at what the know exist in the Department, could look at the idea. It Government’s plans are for the future. How can a might mean talking to the Department for Communities Government spend so much money—quite rightly, in and Local Government. the case of Fleetwood—to protect one part of the The residents of Thurnham are trying to find a way coast, and then leave another part to the vagaries of in which they can be seen to be helping themselves, but, what the science presumes will happen in 30 years’ time: for 30 years—perhaps even longer—they need Government sea levels will be somewhat higher and farming land will support to protect the land that they have bought, not be as valuable as it could be? Farming land is not as where they have built their businesses, or have retired to, valuable as people’s lives, of course; I accept that. or where they run their farms. Somehow we do not seem to see what the wider plan for the area is. If my residents were able to see and understand I did not secure this debate because of any angst with that wider plan, they might have a better way of grasping the Environment Agency. I can see an officer here from what the Environment Agency’s and the Government’s the Environment Agency; we have met on several occasions. policies are. The agency has dealt with the matter absolutely transparently in an up-front way and with a great deal I am particularly interested in learning what the new of sensitivity and understanding. We are talking about Minister—the new broom, as they say—might want to people’s lives, businesses and properties, and I pay due do to offer some succour to people across my constituency, credit to it. However, we have now hit an impasse and whatever district council they belong to. Some have we need Ministers to start looking at the policy implications. suggested that there is a deliberate attempt to carve off one village against another. I would never support such If the problem exists in Thurnham, which is a small conspiracy theories; I simply think that it is good old part of Lancashire—obviously dear to me as part of my bureaucracy again. constituency, and even more dear to the people who have built their lives and businesses there—it must exist The third thing that I want to raise is a little blue-sky across the piece. It cannot be right for any Government thinking; although we are practical in Lancashire, we to take a 30 or 50-year view that somehow, because it is can think outside the box. If the Environment Agency mainly agricultural land, it will be worth less than it is is going to hold the line and if the Government are today. If people are willing to try to find a vehicle to going to supply the money to keep the sea defences help themselves and to join with the Government in going for 30 years and then make a decision—we have maintaining the sea defences, it cannot be impossible to not discussed this with the parish council, although it find the time, effort and brains to provide them with a has been talked about in the area generally—could little extra help. there be a special levy in the area as part of the parish rate, which could go into a fund to be invested for I will be delighted to hear the Minister’s comments 30 years? We wanted to describe it as a sinking fund, but about those three points. I understand that he cannot since we are talking about flooding, let us talk about a say yes, but if he could stand up and say that Thurnham floating fund. will be protected for the next 100 years, I would be more than grateful. I understand his position. He might need If the levy was £25 a year, let us say, with 500 residents to take the issues away, but Thurnham in Lancashire is paying it, in 30 years there would be more than £300,000 willing to help and to offer ideas. It desperately wants to before interest. Any parish or group of residents would keep the livelihoods of people who have farmed there be in a very strong position, whoever the Government for generations. Generations of family life have gone were in 30 years’ time. If they had a body of money to into that particular area, and they simply want a future contribute, it would make it much more difficult for the for themselves, their children and the people of Lancashire, Government of the time to say, “We are still going to and to keep a beautiful part of Lancashire safe from abandon the defences.” the sea. I have discussed the levy with the district council. If there were such a charge, and if somebody wanted to buy a property, would it appear in the land charges 4.15 pm office? If it did appear, would the fact that it was The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for offering another stage of protection help to maintain Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Dan Rogerson): It the values? This is anecdotal evidence, but various is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. estate agents in Lancaster feel that it would help to I want to thank the hon. Member for Lancaster and maintain values and keep that exchange of property Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) for giving us the opportunity and businesses going on, because there would be further to explore the issues. I also thank him for the way in protection building up over time. which he has approached the subject. It would be too Interestingly, the council said there was nothing in easy for a constituency MP to come here and say, law that would allow it to specify such a measure on a “There’s a problem. What are you doing about it, land charge. However, that might not be needed. It might Government?” He is doing that to a certain extent, but 249WH Flood Defences (Thurnham, 29 OCTOBER 2013 Flood Defences (Thurnham, 250WH Lancashire) Lancashire) he is also saying that the people in the communities that an even higher rate of return. The agency estimates an he represents are very open to being a part of the average benefit-cost ratio of 14 to 1 for its asset maintenance solution and to working in partnership with the programme. Government and the Environment Agency to achieve It is no longer the case that the Government fund that. I welcome the role that he has played in bringing only the cream of projects with the very best benefit-cost the sides together and ensuring that we have a helpful ratios, while leaving other worthwhile projects with way forward, and I really mean that. nothing. In 2011, we introduced partnership funding to As a Member of Parliament representing a coastal ensure that a fair portion of DEFRA funding can be constituency, I know exactly what the hon. Gentleman made available for any worthwhile improvement scheme. is talking about in terms of discussions on managing That inevitably means that not all Government-funded the coastline for the future. I represent, among many schemes are fully funded. The new approach ensures other communities, the village of Boscastle, where, as that investment in flood management is not constrained the hon. Gentleman might remember, there was a by what the Government alone can afford, thereby horrendous flood in 2004, which also affected communities increasing certainty and transparency on the level of in Crackington Haven and Canworthy Water. The issues DEFRA funding for projects, leveraging further investment of flooding are foremost in my mind both as a constituency towards worthwhile projects, allowing greater local MP and as a Minister with new responsibilities, which I ownership and choice, and encouraging more cost-effective am trying to carry out to the best of my ability. solutions. That is just the approach that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents are keen to see. The hon. Gentleman will be aware—in fact, he pointed So far, partnership funding has brought forward up to this—of the national scale of the challenge that we to £148 million in external funding over the four years face on flood management. In England, one in six to 2015, compared with £13 million during the previous properties is at risk of flooding. By area, 11% of the three years. That huge increase in match funding is country benefits from flood defences, including some of helping those projects, which were perhaps slightly less our most important commercial and economic centres. attractive initially, into development. This includes 1.3 million hectares of agricultural land—a Early indications suggest that up to 25% more schemes point that the hon. Gentleman made. The majority of will go ahead in the coming years than if project costs the most versatile and productive farmland in England were met by central Government alone. That is relevant is in flood risk areas. The soil is often productive to the hon. Gentleman’s case because a partnership because it is in a river catchment, and it is very fertile, approach is clearly needed to manage the flood risk in but it is intrinsically vulnerable to flooding. such areas. The work of the Environment Agency and Flood management supports the Government’s primary other risk-management authorities in the shoreline objective to deliver economic growth and build a stronger management plan has highlighted that issue. Further economy, and it remains a top priority for the Department. hydraulic modelling and more detailed economic appraisal The Secretary of State and my predecessor have both commissioned by the agency has clarified the fact that been very clear about that commitment. Proof of our the most effective option is not managed realignment commitment to flood management can be seen in the but maintaining the existing line of defences for as long announcement this summer on long-term capital settlement as it is feasible to do so. We are then back to the cost of to improve flood management infrastructure. This doing that beyond the 30-year period. announcement set out a record level of capital investment The defences will eventually need to be rebuilt. They of more than £2.3 billion in the six years to 2021. can be patched for only so long, and it seems unlikely that central Government funding will be able to meet However, we are not only increasing capital expenditure; the full cost of those projects. The Environment Agency we are providing an above-inflation increase of £5 million has told me that it estimates that the defences will need for the Environment Agency’s flood maintenance work to be rebuilt at the end of that period. In the meantime, in 2015-16. That is very important for schemes such as I understand that the agency’s recommended policy is the hon. Gentleman’s, which have been there for some to continue to maintain the defences, subject to the time, and we need to maintain them for the next few availability of funding. decades. As he has outlined, there is a potential plan, but we cannot guarantee that beyond 30 years. That is I have already explained the priority the Government not to say that we will walk away after 30 years, but we place on flood management and the resources they have will come back to such issues as I continue my speech. secured to demonstrate that commitment. However, I Although we have made significant commitments, I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman what the funding situation know that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the need to will be in 30 years’ time. I have highlighted the competition contain public expenditure. Central Government funding that already exists for that funding. The geography of is simply not sufficient to pay for everything that would the area means that, although the maintenance and be worth while to some degree in flood management. renewal of the defences is economic, the case for investment As a result, there will continue to be stiff competition to improve the defences may not be so great as in some for Government funding, and we must ensure that we other areas, including areas elsewhere in his constituency get the best value for money for the taxpayers’ investment. that, as he points out, are about to receive significant investment. In such situations, the community cannot The Environment Agency’s capital programme currently assume that the taxpayer will guarantee the full cost of provides an average of at least £8 of benefits in damages maintaining and improving the defences, so there will avoided for every pound invested in construction of need to be a partnership. Any local arrangements that defences. However, the benefits realised are in fact even reduce the cost of maintaining and improving the defences, greater. Once the capital has been spent on construction, or raise contributions from other sources, will help to the routine maintenance of those defences can provide deliver that. 251WH Flood Defences (Thurnham, 29 OCTOBER 2013 Flood Defences (Thurnham, 252WH Lancashire) Lancashire) [Dan Rogerson] Local Government to consider what might be the best mechanism to achieve that, and I am happy to do so The Environment Agency is undertaking local discussions because we want to overcome any barriers to the local on how best to manage flood risk, including the residual community starting that fund so that the contributions risks if flooding does occur. I ask only that the hon. can begin to be built up ready for such an eventuality. Gentleman encourages all interests to work together, as I will continue to ensure that flood management he is clearly doing. remains a priority and that Government resources are The hon. Gentleman has highlighted a number of used to the best possible effect. We will continue to bear solutions suggested by the community. His first question down on costs and to press the Environment Agency was on why areas are considered separately. Bluntly, it is and other risk management authorities to look for because there are different risks in different areas. Some better ways of working within available budgets. That flood risks are linked to river catchments, and some are will, however, need to be in partnership with local connected to topography and its interaction with the communities, such as those that the hon. Gentleman so sea, so there are a number of solutions for different ably represents today. areas. Cost-benefit ratios have to be considered in relation DEFRA is working to remove unnecessary burdens to the number of families and homes at risk. All of that might discourage farmers and landowners who those things are considered alongside each other, so want to undertake their own maintenance, and there they are not held entirely in isolation. We have to may well be other approaches, too. On 14 October we consider individual schemes. In Thurnham, of course, launched seven watercourse maintenance pilots, and we there is an existing defence, which highlights the fact will consider whether they achieve the outcomes hoped that we are looking at a particular catchment in relative for by the IDBs in those areas. One of those pilots is in isolation. the Alt Crossens area of Lancashire, which is particularly There are still many internal drainage boards doing relevant to the hon. Gentleman. He may wish to look at great work across the country. They are established and what is happening there. have set procedures and set ways of bringing in the Nationally, the Environment Agency is working with revenue they need to carry out the work that they want the National Farmers Union and other partners to to do. We are very supportive of projects and innovation, improve communications and guidance for farmers who so we have allowed seven pilots to proceed in which the wish to undertake their own maintenance. Although I maintenance of watercourses will be considered. The am focusing on those challenges, I do not underplay internal drainage boards and farmers are keen on that, what is being achieved now and what could be achieved and we will look at how those pilots go. in future both in rural and urban areas. The agency is The hon. Gentleman’s constituency has a coastal currently maintaining more than 97% of flood defence situation. There may be a solution that we can move assets in high-risk areas in the required condition. Those towards, although we will have to consider how that defences help to protect more than 1.6 million properties model might work in his case. The Secretary of State for and the vast majority of the most productive and versatile Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has previously agricultural land. said that he is happy for there to be new internal Capital projects in the DEFRA-funded national drainage boards if needed, so long as we are sure that programme completed in the past two years have provided they fit the circumstances that the hon. Gentleman improved flood protection to more than 150,000 hectares describes. of farmland, as well as improving protection for more On the “floating fund” that the hon. Gentleman than 100,000 households. Protecting households and excellently outlines, it would be positive to see the farmland from the risk of flooding underpins the community taking steps to prepare for what might Government’s priorities of delivering economic growth happen in 30 years’ time. He has asked me to contact and building a stronger economy, and I am happy to colleagues in the Department for Communities and work with the hon. Gentleman to deliver that. 253WH 29 OCTOBER 2013 North Liverpool Community Justice 254WH Centre North Liverpool Community Justice address crime successfully is deeply flawed. Crime rates Centre in north Liverpool, which is the area covered by the centre, fell by 7.2% between 2005 and 2010—much more than elsewhere in Liverpool, and much more than 4.27 pm elsewhere across the country. It must be remembered that the centre hears a high proportion of serious Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): crimes. Some 88.1% of cases involve violence against It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the person, while the national average for cases of that Mr Streeter. sort is 47.8%. That makes its success even more notable. When the North Liverpool community justice centre Its important work in addressing antisocial behaviour—a was opened in 2005, it was designed to be an innovative demand of the local community to address that—is court and community resource, learning from the Red simply ignored in the assessment. That work is vital to Hook community justice centre in New York. The the community, yet it does not feature in the judgment centre serves the deprived area of north Liverpool, on the centre’s future. including Kirkdale, Anfield, Everton and County. The Secondly, and inexplicably, there has been no assessment area has strong communities that face severe challenges, of the centre’s key aim of conducting preventive work and there are many vulnerable people. Half the children and supporting the community through its inter-agency in Kirkdale live in poverty. Male life expectancy is 72, approach. That failure is incomprehensible, as prevention which is 13 years less than in Kensington and Chelsea; of crime and supporting the community was a major women’s life expectancy is 76, which is 14 years less than objective of the centre from the very beginning. Its in Kensington and Chelsea. outstanding work on victim and witness support has North Liverpool community justice centre has pioneered resulted in, for example, a 90% to 100% successful new approaches to offending. Restorative justice, conditional conviction rate in cases of domestic violence. However, cautions and judicial oversight are distinguishing features that outstanding work has been ignored, and I understand of the centre’s work. They enable the court to consider that with the centre’s closure, the person who has been individual circumstances, to relate crimes to those who doing that work—someone who has received national have suffered from them and to consider the impact on awards for their success—will cease doing it. the community. Key criminal justice agencies, including the police, probation, Crown Prosecution Service and Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): As we youth offending teams, are co-located in the centre. would normally expect, my hon. Friend is making a very powerful argument on her constituents’ behalf. 4.28 pm However, the justice centre also serves constituents in my constituency, and the closure proves the point that Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House. the Government understand the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. The Merseyside police and crime 4.55 pm commissioner, Jane Kennedy, has described the proposals On resuming— as “unnecessary vandalism”, and she has suggested that such a cut would make the job of our police force “more difficult as the reforming work with prolific offenders will Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): We will gently get lose its focus”. under way again. We were very much enjoying Mrs Louise Ellman’s speech. Does my hon. Friend agree that we will see reoffending rates rising because of the decision? Mrs Ellman: Thank you, Mr Streeter. The co-location of key criminal justice agencies in the centre—the police, Mrs Ellman: I agree with my hon. Friend. He makes probation, Crown Prosecution Service and youth offending very important points, and his comments have also teams—is an important part of its approach, but there been made by the mayor of Liverpool, Joe Anderson. is more. Crucial support services—dealing with, for The centre conducts excellent work with young people example, drugs, debt, financial problems generally, victim in schools—it has been involved with 18 schools in the and witness support and antisocial behaviour—all working local area—and it works with colleges such as Rotunda together are critical, as is vital family support. It is a college, helping to build the confidence of young people, uniquely holistic service. yet that work is disregarded. Innovative links with The centre has been privileged to be served by two mental health services make it a specialist centre, yet outstanding judges with their colleagues—his honour that work is simply cast aside. Many offenders suffer Judge Fletcher, and from December 2012, Judge Clancy. mental health problems that need to be addressed. The The writing has been on the wall for some time, before centre has been doing valuable work in that regard, yet the Government’s hasty consultation on closure, which even that is not worthy of assessment. Excellent took place in six rushed weeks over the summer recess. rehabilitation projects such as the Turnaround project, The answer to my parliamentary question about the supporting women, are considered to be unimportant. issue on 9 September showed that the centre’s fate was When I visited that project, I realised how important it sealed, and the Government have now announced that was and how much those participating in the project it is to close. valued it. The reasoning on which the closure is based fails in The crucial work of the citizens advice bureau, giving two fundamental respects. The Government’s key argument vital practical support to vulnerable adults and the is that the cost of the centre does not justify its continuation. community as a whole, is not considered worthy of First, the Government’s claim that it has failed to consideration. The CAB is situated in the centre, and I 255WH North Liverpool Community Justice 29 OCTOBER 2013 North Liverpool Community Justice 256WH Centre Centre [Mrs Ellman] 5.4 pm understand that it will close when the work of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice centre comes to an end. That will be a grave loss for the (Mr Shailesh Vara): It is a pleasure that for my first whole community; yet again, it has not been considered. speech in the Palace of Westminster as a newly appointed Justice Minister, I am serving under your chairmanship, The failure to assess a key part of the centre’s remit is Mr Streeter. I congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, unacceptable. The Government even have the gall to Riverside (Mrs Ellman) on securing this very important criticise the centre for reducing its community involvement. debate on the North Liverpool community justice centre. That is hardly surprising when the Government themselves In her speech, she made a number of comments, and I have cut funding so much that the community engagement hope that by the time I have finished my speech, I will team have been disbanded. The manager left last year have allayed some of the concerns that she and the hon. and has not been replaced; the deputy is on long-term Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) have sick leave; and in the past three months the centre expressed. manager and district manager have gone. The decision to close the centre was an important What is to happen to these vital services? What one, based on the hard truth that the local drop in work assurance can the Minister give me? The North Liverpool load and the high cost of running what is a single community justice centre provides an important facility courtroom centre have made it untenable. Following the for the people of north Liverpool. It has a dedicated public consultation on the centre’s future, I announced staff, committed to the local community. Its budget was in a written ministerial statement last week the decision cut dramatically, from £1.8 million a year in 2005 to to close the centre. Currently, it is planned that the last £1.3 million a year in 2012, and a further £300,000 sitting day will be Friday 28 March 2014. To keep the reduction was planned. centre running would cost almost £1 million a year, and According to the people I represent, the centre has there is no evidence that that would be money well spent made a real difference to their lives. Yes, the centre is in terms of the results that it achieves compared with primarily about the court and reducing offending and it other courts. has achieved that, but it is also about working with the My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State did not local community in this very deprived area, building take the decision to close the centre lightly. He did so links and developing community strengths, and people after a detailed analysis of the centre’s work and of all in the community value that. However, the assessment the points raised in the consultation responses. The on which the decision to close is based ignores that vital consultation did not identify any single operational or preventive community work and dismisses the significant efficiency reason why the centre should not close. reduction in crime in the area. I stress that we are committed to continuing to provide Steve Rotheram rose— court users in north Liverpool with effective access to justice, while seeking ways to do so at a lower cost and alongside our efforts to improve the efficiency of the Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): A short intervention justice system as a whole. In transferring the majority of from Steve Rotheram. the centre’s work load to Sefton magistrates court, we have been clear that the principles of the centre will be Steve Rotheram: Once again, my hon. Friendhits the maintained and at a court that has modern facilities nail on the head, and she is very generous about giving and a reputation for innovation. way. Does she agree with me that the decision to make The North Liverpool community justice centre was the announcement on the cusp of the parliamentary established in 2005 as a court and community resource, recess has meant that the ability to scrutinise the decision with criminal justice agencies co-located with other fully has not been afforded to local agencies and people third sector services in a dedicated building. The centre who want to keep the centre open? serves an area with a population of about 60,000 people in the north end of the city of Liverpool. The Mrs Ellman: I fully agree with my hon. Friend’s original intention was to provide an intensive approach comments. The consultation was carried out during the to the crimes affecting the community at a very local parliamentary recess. It was rushed. Many people did level for both adult and youth cases. When it was not have the opportunity to make a response, and many launched in 2005, the centre’s objectives included the people did not realise that it was in fact taking place. It provision of community justice in a deprived area of seems a very curious time in which to carry out a Merseyside and, through that, a material reduction in consultation on something as serious as this. reoffending levels through the adoption of innovative I am convinced that the decision is based on financial approaches to the handling of offenders and very close considerations, taking advantage of the break in the cross-agency working with both public and third sector centre’s lease. We are told that the work will transfer to organisations. another court. Will that indeed be the case? What will There is no doubt that the centre rapidly built a good fill the gap in terms of reducing crime, undertaking vital reputation, both locally and internationally, for developing preventive work and supporting this resilient but deprived a new approach to court-based problem solving for community? I hope that the Minister today can provide offenders. However, following an evaluation published the answers. in 2012, it is equally clear that the success of the centre in terms of results was at best mixed. There was no Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Before the Minister empirical evidence to show that the centre was any more responds, it might be helpful to know that the sitting successful at reducing reoffending levels than a mainstream must end by 5.27 pm. magistrates court. 257WH North Liverpool Community Justice 29 OCTOBER 2013 North Liverpool Community Justice 258WH Centre Centre As a result, and given the financial climate, the then Exchequer to send the prolific reoffenders that the ministerial team questioned the value for taxpayers’ centre deals with properly back to prison, because they money that the centre provided and concluded that it will no longer be benefiting from the innovative approaches should continue as a court for up to two years, but with of the North Liverpool justice centre? a view to increasing its work load and remit. That was vital when the centre’s own catchment area work load Mr Vara: The hon. Gentleman wants hypothetical was falling significantly, in line with that of other magistrates answers for the future, but I am not delving into the courts. The increase in work load has been achieved realms of the future. I will, however, look at the facts as only to a limited extent, with the transfer of mental they are—as we have them—and if he disagrees with health cases from a wider catchment area to the centre. them, I am happy to give him the sources of my As a result, the number of cases heard at the centre has information. I repeat that the services provided at the increased during the past six months. For the 12-month centre will not be affected in any way—they will only be period to March of this year, the centre’s courtroom at a different location, some two miles away, nothing utilisation rate stood at 55%. Between April and July of more. this year, that increased to an average of 71% through the hearing of mental health cases. However, despite Mrs Ellman: Will the Minister give way? that increase, the actual work load in volume terms remains relatively low. Mr Vara: I would like to make a little progress, but I am happy to give way to the hon. Lady a little later. Steve Rotheram: According to “Doing justice locally: The outcome of the consultation is to proceed with the North Liverpool Community Justice Centre”, a plans for closure of the centre, but the consultation report published by the Centre for Crime and Justice response identified two areas in which the original Studies, on page 97: proposals should be revised: youth and educational “As a result of these innovations”— welfare cases. We have listened to those views and of the centre— revised the proposal accordingly. Youth and education “our assessment is that criminal justice is speedier, fairer, more welfare cases will now be dealt with by the Liverpool efficient, more community oriented, more holistic than the traditional youth court and the Liverpool and Knowsley magistrates court model”. court, respectively. Again, they are around two miles Does the Minister agree? away—no more. The points about work load and courtroom utilisation, Mr Vara: As I shall come on to say, Sefton magistrates plus the high running costs of the centre, were set out in court offers a number of the services that are provided the initial consultation document and in the consultation at the centre. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside response document published last week. Moreover, the referred to various co-located agencies, and I assure her criminal justice agencies have reduced the number of that Sefton magistrates court has probation services, a people based at the centre, in line with the decrease in citizens advice bureau and victim and witness support work and to meet their changing operational needs. For services, among others. The services that are being example, the Crown Prosecution Service has reduced its provided are to be relocated 1.8 miles away to another presence significantly and is now supporting the centre’s centre, which will provide the same level of service. I cases in the same way as it would in a mainstream court, will refer later to the extent that any difference is required. as opposed to providing dedicated prosecutors and As I was saying, despite the increase in utilisation, the service levels, as it did previously. work load in volume terms remains relatively low and As announced last week, the proposal to transfer the would continue so as a single courtroom site. For example, work from the centre to the nearby Sefton magistrates since April the centre has dealt with an average of 168 court will now proceed. Sefton has excellent modern cases a month, which compares unfavourably with Sefton facilities and good transport links. It has earned its own magistrates court, where the majority of cases will go. reputation for innovation, including a dedicated problem- Over the same period, Sefton dealt with 467 cases a solving court, and because of its efficient processes it month. Due to the limited cell capacity at the centre, it was the first model court—subsequently, beacon office—in is not feasible to transfer in any more custody work to what was then known as Her Majesty’s Courts Service. increase utilisation. Indeed, Sefton magistrates court’s problem-solving approach A key driver in the decision to close the centre was is built on the principles of the North Liverpool community the fact that there are real limitations to the volume of justice centre, but is achieved at much lower cost. The cases it can deal with as a single courtroom site, and it is principles and ethos of the centre will not be lost; they three times more expensive than other courts. Furthermore, will be carried on at Sefton. it is not more successful at reducing reoffending than We have much for which to thank the centre. It cheaper courts, so it simply cannot be seen to represent pioneered a scheme to improve case management—to good value for money. the centre’s credit, that scheme is now in place in all magistrates courts in England and Wales, reducing waiting Steve Rotheram: The Minister claims that the centre times considerably, with the majority of cases completed is not more successful, but that is not the information within four weeks. The spirit of the North Liverpool that has been provided to us—I will get the report and community justice centre will move to Sefton, while dig the relevant section out. The Deputy Prime Minister, allowing us to deliver cost savings of £630,000 per year. who talked about prisons being “colleges of crime”, and the Prime Minister, who talked about a “rehabilitation Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The Minister revolution”, should have been looking at the centre as a is being generous with his first speech here; I wish it model to take to other areas. What will it cost the were on a happier subject. Four weeks is an impressive 259WH North Liverpool Community Justice 29 OCTOBER 2013 North Liverpool Community Justice 260WH Centre Centre [Mr Andy Slaughter] magistrates court, which itself has a reputation for innovative work, but will provide far greater value for turnaround time. What assurances will he give that it money. will be maintained when those cases are transferred to a much larger court? Mrs Ellman: Can the Minister give me an absolute assurance that the level of community support, particularly witness and victim support and the critical advice offered Mr Vara: There is plenty of capacity at Sefton. It has by the citizens advice bureau, and the centre’s holistic five courts at the moment, and on any given day, two or inter-agency approach will be continued in precisely the three are being used. To the extent that more staff and same way in those specific areas of north Liverpool? the like are needed, provision for that has been taken on board. I am confident that the rate of processing cases Mr Vara: The hon. Lady asks a good question, but will continue. she must be mindful of the fact that even at the north Liverpool centre, some of the other agencies were decreasing The Government published our consultation response the support that they were giving. That is not to say that on 22 October 2013. There were 18 responses. Five that may continue at Sefton, but I assure her that as we supported the proposal fully, three were neutral and speak, other co-located agencies are present there, which 10 were opposed in some way to the closure of the I hope will continue to deliver services. However, it centre, the choice of Sefton as the court to receive the would be wrong for me to give a promise based on the centre’s work, or both. declining number of people at the original centre. The main issues recognised in support of closure As set out fully in the consultation response document were the financial benefit and the fact that the centre published last week, it seems clear to me that the case had moved away from its original community-focused for change is made and the decision taken is the right role. Those opposed to closure focused on what they one. In conclusion— perceived as an adverse impact on the provision of justice within the north Liverpool community and raised Steve Rotheram: Will the Minister give way? concerns about youth and mental health cases at Sefton magistrates court. As I have said, we listened to those Mr Vara: No, I have concluded. I am aware that the concerns and have acted accordingly. hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside has visited Sefton magistrates court, but I understand it was not recently. I Closure of the North Liverpool community justice suggest that she and her colleagues visit as soon as centre will result in savings of £630,000 a year, whereas possible. I like to think that the concerns that they have maintaining its operation would mean a continuation expressed today will be eased when they see what is of costs of £930,000 a year, based on this year’s budget. actually on offer. The proposed savings outweigh any perceived benefits Question put and agreed to. from continuing to operate the centre. That is particularly so given that I have been assured that the ethos and 5.19 pm principles developed at the centre will live on at Sefton Sitting adjourned. 35WS Written Statements29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 36WS

through the consultation, including reducing delays in Written Statements getting development underway on sites caused by planning conditions. Tuesday 29 October 2013 Implementing the Growth and Infrastructure Act I will also be publishing shortly draft secondary legislation on the types of business and commercial projects that can use the nationally significant infrastructure COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT regime. The Planning Act 2008 provides for a streamlined authorisation process for nationally significant infrastructure projects. Changes brought forward under the Growth Planning Administration and Infrastructure Act 2013 enabled the Secretary of State to provide developers of the most significant business and commercial projects in England with the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for option of having their projects considered through that Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): We process. have already taken decisive action to cut unnecessary Under the draft regulations, any developer who wishes planning red tape, and to make the planning system their project to be dealt with under the 2008 Act will operate more efficiently and effectively for applicants, need first to ask the Secretary of State for a direction. local communities and councils. The national planning The Secretary of State must be satisfied that the project policy framework together with the new planning practice falls within one of the prescribed types of project and is guidance website, once it is finalised, will have swept nationally significant. A policy statement has been placed away 8,000 pages of previously impenetrable policy and in the Library of the House setting out the factors that guidance documents. We have also put in place new the Secretary of State will take into account when permitted development rights to make it easier to get considering whether a direction should be given and empty and underused buildings back into public use. how developers can apply for a direction. In January 2013, my Department launched the planning administration theme on the red tape challenge website. We sought views on how to make the mechanics of the planning system more efficient and accessible, ensuring ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE it is simple, clear and easy for people to use. As I explained in my written ministerial statement of 31 January 2013, Official Report, column 52WS, this European Union (Referendum) Bill review did not involve considering any changes to planning policy. Moreover, the Government are committed to ensuring that countryside and environmental protections Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Representing continue to be safeguarded and to decentralising power the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission): over planning to local councils, neighbourhoods and The Electoral Commission has today published its statutory local residents. assessment of the referendum question contained in the I would like to inform the House that the Government European Union (Referendum) Bill (’the Bill’), which are today announcing the outcome of the planning was introduced to the House of Commons as a Private administration red tape challenge. Members Bill by the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) on 19 June 2013. We received around 150 comments in response to our consultation, which we have carefully considered in The Commission has a statutory obligation under developing our proposals. Of the 182 regulations on section 104 of the Political Parties, Elections and which we consulted and following a rigorous challenge Referendum Act (PPERA) 2000 to consider the wording process, we propose, through a prioritised and phased of the question in any referendum Bill that is introduced programme, to reduce the overall number of planning to the UK Parliament and to publish a statement on its regulations to 78—a reduction of 57%. views on the intelligibility of that question. The question currently contained in the Bill is: ’Do you think that the The principal changes we propose to make to the United Kingdom should be a member of the European regulations will: Union?’ consolidate the rules on development that does not require a planning application. The current permitted development When assessing a referendum question, the Commission’s regulations have been amended 17 times, and need an overhaul assessment guidelines say that the question should be to make the arrangements accessible and easy to use for all; clear and simple. It should be easy to understand, to the bring together recent amendments to the regulations for the point and not ambiguous. The Commission has a well- planning application process, and use this opportunity to established process for making this assessment, which tackle unnecessary or overly burdensome requirements in includes undertaking public opinion research through the application process; focus groups and one-to-one interviews, writing to interested merge a number of regulations in relation to major infrastructure individuals and groups to ask their views and seeking projects and hazardous substances to simplify and clarify advice from experts on plain language and accessibility. those consent processes; and Having completed this process, the Commission has scrap 38 redundant regulations that are no longer needed. concluded that the wording of the proposed question Alongside this programme of further simplification, itself is brief, uses straightforward language, and is easy we will also develop and bring forward later this year to understand and answer. However they also found additional measures to streamline and improve the end- it could be improved, in particular to reduce the risk to-end planning process to address other issues raised of misunderstanding or ambiguity about the current 37WS Written Statements29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 38WS membership status of the UK within the EU. It therefore Copies of both the full question assessment and the recommends that the question should be amended to accompanying research report, which sets out in detail make it more direct and to the point, and to improve the Commission’s analysis and the rationale for the clarity and understanding. recommended changes to the question included in the The Commission’s consultation, analysis and research Bill, can be found on the Commission’s website at: with the public has not, however, identified a single www.electoralcommission.org.uk. preferred wording for the question. Because of the complexity of the issues covered by this referendum question, its research suggests that currently, in the context of a referendum on the UK’s membership of ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the EU, a question using ’Yes’ and’ No’ as response options would not be able to fully resolve those issues. The Commission’s recommendations therefore highlight Dog Attacks (Maximum Penalties) an important decision for Parliament, as to whether to retain or move away from the UK’s recent experience of referendum questions using ’Yes’ and ’No’ responses. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and If Parliament wishes to retain the use of ’Yes’ and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): My Department ’No’ as response options, then the Commission recommends consulted this summer in England, and in Wales on that the referendum question should be amended to: behalf of the Welsh Government, on possible increases ’Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the to the maximum penalties for aggravated offences under European Union?’ section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. These relate to a dog being dangerously out of control and a dog However, the Commission’s research suggests that killing or injuring a person or an assistance dog. some people will perceive either positive or negative associations with the phrase ’remain a member of the We undertook a short, online survey of people’s European Union’, although there was no evidence that views on options for an increase in maximum penalties this wording resulted in research participants changing which currently stand at two years’ imprisonment and/or their voting preference in any way. If Parliament decides an unlimited fine for aggravated offences. not to retain a referendum question which uses ’Yes’ A total of 3,180 people and organisations completed and ’No’ as response options, having taken into account the online survey and a number of organisations sent the risk of a perception of bias which might be associated written representations. In summary, some 91% of with that approach, then the Commission recommends respondents considered that maximum penalties should amending the question to: ’Should the United Kingdom be increased. 83% thought there should be an increase remain a member of the European Union or leave the for injury to an assistance dog or a person, 69% for the European Union?’ with ’Remain a member of the European death of an assistance dog, and 76% for the death of a Union’ and ’Leave the European Union’ as response person. options. In coming to a decision on new maximum penalties This alternative version of the referendum question for dog attacks, we have taken into account the responses wording was also tested in its research with the public to the consultation and the need for maximum penalties and was considered the most neutral of the questions to be proportionate to the offence. We have also compared tested. However, the Commission did not explore the the current maximum penalty with the maximum penalties impact of variations to the specific wording of the for other offences. The maximum penalty of causing question and responses, nor did it receive views from death by dangerous driving is 14 years’ imprisonment would-be referendum campaign organisations about and the maximum penalty for causing actual bodily this approach. If Parliament amended the Bill in this harm is 5 years’ imprisonment. Anyone who deliberately way, the Commission would therefore need to undertake sets their dog on a person and kills them—in effect a further assessment of the intelligibility of the proposed using their dog as a weapon—could be charged with wording, which it would do as quickly as possible. murder or manslaughter, which carries a maximum The Bill also makes provision for a Welsh version of penalty of life imprisonment. The Government propose, the referendum question to be included on the ballot therefore, to increase the maximum penalties for aggravated paper, although a Welsh translation of the question was offences under section 3 of the 1991 Act in England and not included in the Bill as introduced. Following a Wales to: request from the hon. Member for Stockton South, and 14 years’ imprisonment if a person dies as a result of a dog in line with its Welsh Language Scheme, the Commission attack has also tested as part of its assessment process a 5 years’ imprisonment if a person is injured by a dog attack, translation of the question included in the Bill in Welsh. and It is recommending that if the version of the question 3 years’ imprisonment if an assistance dog either dies or is included on the ballot paper in Welsh is the amended injured by a dog attack. yes/no question, it should be: ’A ddylai’r Deyrnas Unedig The increase in maximum penalty for a dog attack on ddal i fod yn aelod o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd?’ If Parliament an assistance dog, such as a guide dog for the blind, decides not to retain the ’Yes’ and ’No’ question and the reflects the devastating effect such an attack has on the question included in the ballot paper in Welsh is the assisted person. As now, each of these offences could alternative question recommended, then it should be: also be punishable by an unlimited fine instead of, or in “A ddylai’r Deyrnas Unedig bara i fod yn aelod o’r addition to, imprisonment. An amendment to the 1991 Undeb Ewropeaidd neu adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd? Act to effect these changes will be tabled for consideration Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the during Lords Committee Stage of the Anti-social Behaviour, European Union or leave the European Union?” Crime and Policing Bill. 39WS Written Statements29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 40WS

Responsible dog ownership Affairs Council was chaired by the High Representative Increasing the maximum penalties for dog attacks is of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security only one aspect of the Government’s overall approach Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland, and the General to tackling irresponsible dog ownership. Government Affairs Council by the Lithuanian Presidency.The meetings consulted on a range of possible measures to encourage were held in Luxembourg. responsible dog ownership in 2012 and published a Commissioners Füle (Enlargement and European summary of results and the way forward on 6 February Neighbourhood Policy) and Piebalgs (Development) 2013. were in attendance for some of the discussions at the As a result of that consultation, the Anti-social Behaviour, FAC. Crime and Policing Bill—clauses 98 and 99—includes Commissioner Šefcovic (Inter-Institutional Relations amendments extending the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 and Administration) was in attendance for some of the to private property and provisions that extend the offence discussions at the GAC. of allowing a dog to be dangerously out of control to all places, including people’s homes. This will give protection FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL to family members, friends and visitors including postal A provisional report of the meeting and Conclusions workers, nurses, utility workers and other professionals adopted can be found at: who visit homes as part of their job. At the same time, http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/ there will be an exemption from prosecution for docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/139093.pdf householders whose dogs attack trespassers in or entering the home. There will also be a specific offence of allowing Introduction- Iran a dog to attack an assistance dog. Baroness Ashton updated Ministers on the E3+3/Iran In addition, the Bill includes new measures for local talks in Geneva, and the issuing of the first joint statement. authorities and the police to take action before a dog The next meeting would be on 7-8 November in Geneva attack occurs. These measures can require dog owners with experts discussions in advance. to take any reasonable steps to address their own or Introduction- Serbia/Kosovo their dog’s behaviour, including, but not limited to: attending dog training classes, requiring the dog to be Baroness Ashton briefed on the 17th round of the on a lead in public, repairing fencing to their property Serbia/Kosovo facilitated dialogue, the elections to prevent the dog escaping, and even requiring the dog preparations, and noted that the EU’s Election Observation to be neutered. These measures supplement the non- Mission had begun its work. statutory tools such as acceptable behaviour contracts Introduction- Bosnia and Herzegovina that are already used by many local authorities to address antisocial behaviour including that involving Baroness Ashton highlighted the Conclusions agreed dogs. on Bosnia and Herzegovina, which emphasise the importance of implementing the European Court of A comprehensive practitioner’s manual has been drafted Human Rights ruling on the Sejdic-Finci constitutional in liaison with the Welsh Government, police and local issue, and commit to a broader discussion on Bosnia authorities to ensure that these new measures tackle and Herzegovina at the November Foreign Affairs Council. irresponsible dog ownership without compromising dog They also signal the EU’s readiness to renew the executive welfare. mandate of Operation EUFOR Althea for another The UK Government and Welsh Government have year. both announced measures to require the microchipping of all dogs by April 2016 in England and by March Introduction- Maldives 2015 in Wales. This will allow lost and stray dogs to be Baroness Ashton expressed her concern that the reunited quickly with their owners, minimising stress Presidential election in the Maldives had again not for both dog and owner, and saving considerable time proceeded, and stated that the EU needed to monitor and resource for hard-pressed local authority dog wardens the situation closely. and animal welfare charities. Separate regulations on Eastern Partnership dog microchipping will be published in 2014. Way forward Baroness Ashton looked forward to a successful Summit at Vilnius in November, noting the backdrop of increased Parliament will consider the Government proposals Russian activism. Ministers exchanged views on Ukraine’s for increased maximum penalties for dog attacks and, if progress in implementing the conditions for the possible agreed, they should come into force in 2014 following signature of the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement. Royal Assent of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and The Foreign Secretary stated that the EU needed to Policing Bill. keep the focus on Ukraine’s reform progress, until the Vilnius Summit and beyond. The Foreign Secretary FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE also underlined that closer economic ties between the EU and Eastern Partners would have significant economic Foreign Affairs and General Affairs Councils benefits for the wider region including Russia. (21-22 October) Southern Neighbourhood On Egypt, Baroness Ashton briefed Ministers following The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My her most recent visit to Cairo. Ministers expressed right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and strong support for her efforts. The Foreign Secretary Commonwealth Affairs attended the Foreign Affairs argued that the EU should address the issue of political Council (FAC) on 21 October and I attended the General detainees, and supported electoral observation by the Affairs Council (GAC) on 22 October. The Foreign EU of the constitutional referendum. 41WS Written Statements29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 42WS

On Syria, Ministers emphasised that progress towards The Council adopted the second part (country reports) of Geneva II and a political solution remained the priority; the EU annual report on human rights and democracy. The underlined the importance of the UN Security Council first part (thematic reports) was adopted on 6 June 2013. Resolution 2118 (2013) on Syrian chemical weapons; GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL and stressed that the humanitarian situation remained The 22 October GAC focused on: the preparation for dire. Ministers agreed Conclusions which, in particular, the October European Council, which the Prime Minister reiterated that the objective of Geneva II would be swift attended on 24-25 October; the next stage of the European establishment, by mutual consent, of a transitional semester; macro-regional strategies; and enlargement. governing body with full executive powers and control of all governmental and all security institutions, and A provisional report of the meeting and Conclusions underlined that there should be no impunity for human adopted can be found at: rights abuses, including those committed with conventional http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_Data/ weapons. docs/pressdata/EN/genaff/139118.pdf On Libya, Ministers agreed that EU support would Preparation of the 24-25 October European Council be important in helping Libya to address the migratory situation. The Foreign Secretary emphasised the need The GAC discussed the 24-25 October European to focus on practical support following recent tragic Council, both in the plenary session of the General events, with the UK offering support to the Libyan Affairs Council and over lunch with the President of security sector. He stated that the EU should focus on the European Council, Herman van Rompuy. This ensuring that the EU Border Assistance Mission in European Council had an extensive agenda covering: Libya delivered training as quickly as possible. the digital economy, innovation and services; growth, competitiveness and jobs; Economic and Monetary Union; Burma the Eastern Partnership summit; and migration issues, Before lunch with Aung San Suu Kyi, Baroness Ashton following the tragedy in Lampedusa. gave an overview of Burma’s continuing reform process, I signalled our strong support for the digital agenda, highlighting progress made and the remaining challenges. emphasising the importance of the Digital Single Market In November she will lead a taskforce to Burma, the in promoting growth but reminding my counterparts of first outside Europe’s neighbourhood, aimed at bringing the need to avoid setting unrealistic timelines, including EU representatives and businesses to Burma to offer on data protection. I also stressed the need for further comprehensive EU support for the transition to democracy. progress in the services agenda and reducing regulation. Over lunch, Aung San Suu Kyi highlighted the central The Commission had recently produced a welcome importance of amending the Burmese constitution in report on reducing regulation titled REFIT. This looked order to allow for credible presidential elections. The at how to improve regulation across the board. The Foreign Secretary underlined his support for constitutional Prime Minister has consistently championed this work change, and the role the EU could play, including in and has separately challenged businesses to identify the supporting and monitoring the 2015 elections. He also most burdensome regulations. The Business Taskforce raised the plight of the Rohingya and other ethnic and which responded to this challenge, presented its report religious tensions. drawn from the views of over 100 businesses from across Europe. The Taskforce report put forward 30 clear AOB- Central African Republic recommendations to remove or improve the EU rules The Foreign Minister of France, Laurent Fabius, that are the most burdensome to businesses. debriefed on his recent joint visit with Commissioner European Semester Georgieva (International Co-operation, Humanitarian The Lithuanian Presidency presented their ’synthesis Aid and Crisis Response), outlining three central concerns: report’ on lessons learned in this year’s European Semester. the security situation; the humanitarian crisis; and the The European Semester gives macro-economic and fiscal political process. Conclusions were agreed. guidance to Member States, assessing the implementation Other business of the Compact for Growth and Jobs agreed by the June 2012 European Council. The discussion that followed Ministers agreed without discussion a number of other the presentation raised the importance of ensuring that measures: the timing of recommendations is right. The Council adopted the EU position for the EU-Serbia Enlargement (Turkey) Stabilisation and Association Council. The Council agreed to confirm the EU common The Council adopted conclusions on Yemen. position for the opening of chapter 22 dialogue on The Council adopted conclusions on the special report No regional policy and co-ordination of structural instruments 4/2013 of the Court of Auditors concerning EU cooperation with Turkey, and to convene an Accession Conference with Egypt in the field of governance. at Ministerial level on 5 November in Brussels to do so. This will be the first chapter opened with Turkey for The Council extended the EU restrictive measures against the Republic of Guinea, consisting of restrictions on admission three years. There will be a more general debate on to the EU and asset freezes, until 27 October 2014. enlargement at the GAC on 17 December. The Council allocated ¤8.05 million from the EU budget to Macro-Regional Strategies support the activities of the International Atomic Energy Following a presentation by the Commission, the Agency (IAEA) on nuclear security and verification. GAC endorsed conclusions on macro-regional strategies The Council adopted conclusions on the new challenges and exchanged views on the added value of the existing presented by the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction strategies. The draft conclusions on macro-regional (WMD) and their delivery systems. strategies reiterated that they should require no new 43WS Written Statements29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 44WS money (though structural and cohesion funds already Scotland also benefits from a nationally run scheme allocated to those regions could be channelled towards to prevent both specified foreign national passengers projects complementing the macro-regional strategies); travelling to the UK and British nationals boarding no new institutions and no new legislation. The conclusions flights when assessed to pose a threat to that aircraft. set out preconditions that would help make any new An independent Scottish state would be responsible for strategies effective. France also presented its plans for a its own border security. new macro-regional strategy; the Alpine Region Strategy. More broadly, and in support of many of the security capabilities I have outlined here and which are detailed in the paper itself, Scottish security and resilience companies HOME DEPARTMENT currently stand to benefit from HMG’s efforts to increase global UK security exports. The security and resilience industry in Scotland is estimated to generate over Scotland Analysis: Security £200 million per annum and employ over 2,000 people. UK Government efforts to promote Scottish security firms overseas would cease in the event of independence; The Secretary of State for the Home Department a significant potential loss to this important element of (Mrs Theresa May): The UK Government have today the Scottish economy. published the seventh paper in their Scotland analysis programme, “Scotland analysis: security”. This series In the event of a vote in favour of leaving the UK, of publications is designed to inform the debate on Scotland would become an entirely new state and would Scotland’s future within the United Kingdom ahead of have to establish its own security arrangements. The next year’s referendum. start-up costs and complexity of establishing separate intelligence, border and CBRN capabilities would be The “Scotland analysis: security” paper analyses the very significant. It would cease to enjoy the influence UK’s approach to security and the potential consequences that derives from the UK’s established status as a key of Scottish independence. Scotland and its people are player within the international system and the opportunities an integral part of the UK’s national security, and the this offers to advance the security and prosperity objectives UK Government believe both that Scotland is better off of the UK including Scotland. as part of the UK, and that the UK is stronger, safer and more secure with Scotland as part of it. Future papers from the Scotland analysis programme will be published over the course of 2013 and 2014 to The first duty of any state is the defence of its ensure that people in Scotland have access to the facts territory and institutions, and the protection of its and information ahead of the referendum. citizens and property from both internal and external sources of threat or harm. As a part of the Union, Scotland benefits from the full spectrum of capabilities available to the UK’s security, intelligence and law JUSTICE enforcement agencies. There is greater security through integrated UK-wide security and intelligence agencies with global reach. Victims of Crime The UK’s security and intelligence agencies protect against terrorism and espionage, enable the collection of secret foreign intelligence, and make possible intelligence The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims gathering through the monitoring of communications. (Damian Green): Today the Government have published An independent Scottish state would lose automatic a new Code of Practice for Victims of Crime (the access to UK intelligence, impacting on its ability to Victims’ Code). counter espionage and hostile foreign intelligence activity The Victims’ Code applies to all victims of criminal as well as terrorism. offences under the National Crime Recording Standard We are better protected through enhanced justice and (NCRS) and sets out the services to be provided to policing capabilities and international partnerships to victims of crime in England and Wales by criminal tackle serious and organised crime. Long-established justice agencies. UK-wide laws facilitate the cross-border pursuit of The old code, written in 2006 was in need of revision justice despite different legal systems and police jurisdictions. as it was out of date and did not meet victims’ needs - This works with the minimum of bureaucracy and more that is why the Government committed to review the quickly and efficiently than is possible between EU code in the response to the ’Getting It Right For Victims states. Independence would see the existing powers lapse, and Witnesses’ consultation in July 2012. impacting negatively on an independent Scotland’s ability From 29 March to 10 May this year the Government to pursue justice across borders. held a public consultation on “Improving the Code of There is greater resilience through UK-wide cyber Practice for Victims of Crime”, seeking views on a draft security, chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear code. The 197 responses received helped to inform the (CBRN) response and border protection arrangements. drafting of the new Victims’ Code published today. The UK’s £860 million cyber security programme delivers The new Victims’ Code is written in plain English enhanced cyber security for the benefit of the whole of with victims of crime as the target audience. It meets the UK, which leads other G20 countries in its ability to the Government’s commitment to deliver an accessible withstand cyber attacks. code that works for victims. It is structured around the The UK Government also maintain a number of journey victims of crime face when they come into capabilities to deal with CBRN devices as well as explosive contact with the criminal justice system and sets out the materials. information, services and support they can expect to 45WS Written Statements29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 46WS receive at every stage of the process. This includes I regard the publication of these documents as an enhanced entitlements for victims who are most in important step in my preparations for laying the hybrid need, namely: Bill before Parliament later this year and I consider this victims of the most serious crime; to be an opportune time to explain the benefits of HS2 persistently targeted victims; and clearly and comprehensively. vulnerable or intimidated victims. Good quality transport is at the heart of our economic Key improvements to the new Victims’ Code include: success and the decisions we take now about transport investment will determine our country’s economic future. Strengthening the voice of the victim by putting the Victim Personal Statement under a statutory code for the first time The case for the new line rests on the step change in and giving an entitlement to victims to choose whether they capacity and connectivity it will provide. would like to read their statement aloud in court or to have it The new north-south railway is a long-term solution read aloud on their behalf if the defendant is found guilty. to a long-term problem. Without HS2, the west coast, A separate chapter for businesses and an opportunity for east coast and midland main lines are likely to be businesses of all sizes to make an impact statement so that their voice is fully heard. overwhelmed. With it, we will transform intercity travel. There will also be benefits for regional and commuter Information on restorative justice for victims of adult offenders for the first time. This includes a duty on criminal justice services. It will increase the amount of freight that can agencies to meet existing quality standards and put in place be carried by rail. robust safeguards to ensure repeat victimisation does not HS2 will provide a very significant increase in capacity occur. on the rail network. It will deliver a 14 trains per hour An improved complaints process so that victims are better capability in phase 1, rising to 18 trains an hour in able to hold criminal justice agencies to account if things go phase 2— transforming intercity rail services. wrong. Significant journey time improvements will be possible, A new dedicated section for victims under 18 and their parents and guardians written in an accessible way. such as reducing the journey time between London and Manchester from two hours eight minutes to one hour An automatic referral of all victims to support services eight minutes. HS2 will connect eight of our 10 largest has been retained in the final version of the code. This cities and bring two thirds of the population within two change to the consultation version of the code will hours of London. ensure consistent and immediate access to support services is provided to all victims. And HS2 could provide space for at least an extra 20 west coast main line freight paths, with each extra It is crucial to the success of the new Victims’ Code freight train typically taking 40 lorries off our roads; that victims, criminal justice practitioners and victims’ easing congestion and reducing carbon emissions. organisations are fully aware of the services and support that victims of crime are entitled to receive. The Government These transport improvements will help support are developing a wide-ranging communications package economic growth and make a major contribution towards to raise awareness of the code, including leaflets on the rebalancing the economy. code in various formats including EasyRead; a YouTube Subject to parliamentary approval, the new railway video and educational materials for use by schools, will be built in two phases. It will be fully integrated local government and voluntary organisations. This will with the rest of the railway network. It will bring help to make sure victims know what they are entitled benefits to places with stations on the new railway to and that criminal justice agencies fulfil then obligations including Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham and London; under the code. to stations on the classic network like Liverpool, Darlington A Statutory instrument will be laid in November, and Newcastle which will receive high-speed services; which will bring the code into force in December. and to other places on the existing mainlines like Milton Copies of the new Victims’ Code are available in the Keynes, Rugby and Peterborough, which will have better Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. The Government services from released capacity on the existing main Response to the consultation has been deposited in the lines. libraries of both Houses. More information on the code Analysis by Atkins and Network Rail has considered and relevant consultation documents can be found on whether we could meet the capacity challenge in other the Ministry of Justice website at: https://consult.justice. ways—for example through upgrades to the current gov.uk/digital-communications/code-victims-crime. railway. But HS2 emerges as the only option that provides not only the capacity and the connectivity this country needs, but is also deliverable, minimises disruption to existing rail services and allows us to leap ahead of TRANSPORT demand and reshape the economic geography of the country. The updated economic case scrutinises again the HS2 costs and benefits of HS2. The new analysis shows that the Y network delivers a good return on investment, with a standard cost benefit ratio of 2.3. The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick HS2 has been allocated a funding envelope of McLoughlin): The Government have today published £42.6 billion in the 2015 spending review and will not “The Strategic Case for HS2”, an updated economic exceed that allocation. It includes £14.4 billion of case and other supporting documents, including a technical contingency, which I am determined to bear down on report into possible alternatives to HS2 by Atkins and and I have put in place rigorous controls, including a Network Rail target price for HS2. 47WS Written Statements29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Statements 48WS

We are continuing to work with the construction and them to plan ahead, drive down costs and recruit and train supply industry and with local communities to ensure the workers needed to deliver the increase in road projects that this unprecedented investment in a new north-south over the coming years. line will deliver the best possible return to the British Establishing a road user watchdog and efficiency monitor, economy, and be built at the lowest possible cost and using existing organisations such as Passenger Focus and the with the lowest possible environmental impact. Office of Rail Regulation to make use of existing experience and avoid creating unnecessary new bodies. Together, these I am laying copies of these documents in the Libraries functions will ensure that the interests of road users are of both Houses. well-represented and given a strong voice in influencing what the company delivers, and that the company’s performance is subject to effective independent scrutiny and challenge. Highways Agency Transferring the necessary powers and duties to the company in order for it to effectively operate, manage and improve the strategic road network with day-to-day operational freedom The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport and flexibility, by designating the company as the statutory (Mr Robert Goodwill): Today I am beginning a period ″highways authority″ and adjusting other legislation where of public consultation on the Government’s proposals necessary. This includes ensuring that the company will for transforming the Highways Agency into a government- continue to work in partnership with local authorities, emergency owned company. services and others bodies, and safeguarding current protections regarding environmental and safety standards. At the spending round in June, the Government announced a transformational investment in our strategic The consultation also explains how the terms and road network worth £28bn by 2022 and up to £50bn conditions of staff will be protected during the transfer. over the next generation. To ensure efficient and effective Separately to this, the Highways Agency will continue delivery of this, the Government also set out plans for to work with representatives to keep staff fully informed. reforming the way our strategic roads are managed and The outcome of this consultation will inform the run in Action for Roads. final model of the new company, and shape the legislation We promised to consult later in 2013 on the details of needed to empower the new company, which we plan to transforming the Highways Agency into a government- introduce in 2014. owned company, with a long-term framework for roads The Government believe that the proposals set out in investment and creating an independent watchdog to this consultation provide the freedom and flexibility for ensure that the interests of road users are represented the roads operator to deliver efficiently and effectively and the company’s performance is subject to effective without day-to-day interference from central Government. scrutiny and challenge. At the same time, they put in place sufficient accountability The consultation sets out the Government’s detailed and safeguards to ensure that the roads are run responsibly proposals for: and in the public interest. It is expected that these Setting up the Highways Agency as a government-owned reforms will enable cost savings for the taxpayer of at company, with a licence regime and comprehensive governance least £2.6 billion over 10 years. framework to ensure the company is properly held to account. A copy of the consultation document will be placed This company will remain in public ownership and we will in the Libraries of both Houses. The document is seek to guarantee this through legislation. available at: The process through which we expect to set the Roads Investment Strategy (RIS), which will contain a clear https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/ performance specification, a guaranteed statement of available transforming-the-highways-agency-into-a-government- funding and a defined funding and investment programme. owned-company This will make the company more transparent, and let road users and the public hold it to account for what it has Related to this consultation, I am today also publishing promised to deliver. It will also give confidence to suppliers an impact assessment containing analysis of the impacts over investment plans and future funding levels, enabling of these proposed changes.

383W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 384W

Exchequer impact Written Answers to £ million 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17

Questions Beer -138.7 -141.9 -145.6 Spirits -7.2 -7.6 -8.1 Alcopops -0.2 -0.2 -0.2 Tuesday 29 October 2013 Cider -16.6 -17.5 -18.5 Wine -4.9 -5.3 -5.7 Note: Consumption impact: Quantities Product (000 hectolitre) TREASURY Excise Duties: Motor Vehicles

Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Chancellor of the Energy Exchequer how much has accrued to the Exchequer through vehicle excise duty in each of the last five Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer years. [172861] what costs were incurred by his Department’s estate in respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity supply in the Nicky Morgan: Out-turn figures for vehicle excise 2012-13 financial year. [172797] duty are published bi-annually in the autumn statement and Budget report: Nicky Morgan: Departmental energy costs can be found in Treasury’s annual report and accounts 2012-13, £ billion a copy of which has been deposited in the Library. 2007-08 5.4 2008-09 5.6 Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks 2009-10 5.6 2010-11 5.8 2011-12 5.9 David T. C. Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what estimate he has made of the cost to Financial Conduct Authority the Exchequer if all alcohol duty were frozen in 2014; [172154] Alun Cairns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of a what specific targets his Department has put in place freeze in alcohol duty in 2014 on consumption of for the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA); how these (a) wine, (b) beer, (c) spirits and (d) cider; [172155] targets are measured; what other steps his Department (3) what estimate he has made on the cost to the has put in place to monitor the FCA’s performance; Exchequer of scrapping the alcohol duty escalator and and if he will make a statement. [172331] increasing the level of alcohol duty by inflation in the 2014 financial year. [172165] Sajid Javid: The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) is operationally independent from Government and Nicky Morgan: Budget 2013 cancelled the beer duty carries out is functions within the framework of statutory escalator so beer duty will rise by inflation only in objectives and duties agreed by Parliament. 2014-15. Duties on wine, spirits and cider will rise by In view of its independence the Treasury does not 2% above inflation in 2014-15. An indication of the specify non-statutory operational targets for the FCA. effect on revenue and consumption of a 1% increase in duty in 2014-15 on all alcoholic drinks is presented in Under the Financial Services Act 2012 (“the Act”) the following tables, taken from HMRC’s published the FCA is required to prepare an annual report on its ready reckoners. performance against its statutory objectives. The Act also makes the FCA subject to NAO audit Direct effects of illustrative changes—1% change with the associated ability of the NAO to launch VFM Indicative level of current duty on a typical item studies of the FCA. 2013-14 2014-15 2015-16 The Treasury has powers to appoint an independent Beer and cider person to conduct a review of the economy efficiency duties and effectiveness with which the FCA has used its Pint of beer: 25 25 25 resources in discharging its functions. 46p High Speed 2 Railway Line Wine duties 75cl bottle of 30 35 35 Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the table wine: Exchequer to which department’s capital departmental £1.90 expenditure limit expenditure on High Speed 2 will be attributed. [172697] Spirits duties 70cl bottle of 20 20 20 Danny Alexander: The Government allocated an overall spirits: £7.27 funding envelope for High Speed 2 of £42.6 billion for construction costs (£21.4 billion for Phase 1 and £21.2 billion 385W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 386W for Phase 2) and £7.5 billion for rolling stock, in 2011 Public Expenditure prices. The spending round 2013 also allocated a budget for High Speed 2 up until 2021. This sits within the Mrs Gillan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Department for Transport’s departmental expenditure what Barnett consequentials for which projects have limit. been paid to (a) Wales, (b) Scotland and Married Tax Allowance (c) Northern Ireland in each year since 2010; what such payments are currently under discussion; and Owen Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what amount of such payments has been agreed to be what estimate he has made of the number of people in paid in each year to 2020. [172517] (a) Wales and (b) each other region of the UK will receive married tax allowance. [171932] Danny Alexander: The following table sets out capital Barnett consequentials resulting from policy decisions Mr Gauke: The estimated number of people that taken by the UK Government since the 2010 spending stand to gain from the married couples’ transferable round. allowance in each region/country of the UK in 2015-16 is presented in the following table: In addition capital allocations for 2015-16 were set out at spending round 2013. Any further Barnett Number of people that stand to consequentials, including allocations for years beyond Region/country gain 2015-16 will be announced in due course. North East 195,000 Scotland North West 455,000 £ million Yorkshire and the Humber 370,000 Fiscal East Midlands 345,000 event Project 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 West Midlands 365,000 Budget University 12.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 East of England 390,000 2011 Technical Colleges London 420,000 First Buy 21.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 South East 490,000 South West 405,000 Autumn Highway — 1.5 14.0 21.5 Wales 215,000 statement Agency— Scotland 335,000 2011 additional Northern Ireland 125,000 motorway schemes (M6 J10A-13, M3 J2-3, road pinch All 4,110,000 point fund) Additional LA — 0.0 7.5 5.8 These estimates are derived from the 2011-12 Family major transport Resources Survey projected forward to 2015-16 using projects economic assumptions consistent with the Office for Highway Agency — 2.7 8.6 10.0 Budget Responsibility’s March 2013 economic and fiscal reserve schemes outlook. (A45 tollbar and A453 widening) Performance Appraisal M1/M6 J19 — 0.5 3.1 6.0 junction Mrs Lewell-Buck: To ask the Chancellor of the improvement Exchequer what proportion of (a) disabled and (b) all A14 J7-9 Kettering — 0.1 2.3 6.1 other staff employed by his Department received each Bypass Widening level of performance rating in their end of year A14 alleviate — 0.5 1.5 0.0 pressures performance assessment for 2012-13. [170454] Huntingdon— Cambridge Nicky Morgan: The following table gives the proportion Accelerate M25 — 0.0 0.0 5.0 of (a) disabled and (b) all other staff employed in the J13-27 Treasury by each level of performance rating in their Accelerate M1 — 0.0 0.0 5.0 end of year performance assessment for 2012-13. J39-42 New link road to — 0.9 5.0 5.6 Percentage Manchester Disability Box11 Box21 Box31 airport East-West rail — 0.0 0.0 2.1 2 Yes 17 81 — project. New rail No 27 72 2 line from Oxford Data not 27 68 5 to Milton Keynes/ available Bedford 1 Box 1: Around 25% of strongest performers, Box 2: Around 65 to Rail winter — 0.0 0.0 0.1 70% of performers, Box 3: Significant shortcoming displayed during resilience the year. Tackle local — 0.0 0.0 0.8 2 The disclosure of numbers where they amount to fewer than five problems on the could enable others to identify which individuals this information rail network more relates. This would amount to a release of their personal data in quickly breach of the Data Protection Act. Section 40 of the Freedom of Electrification of — 0.0 0.0 1.7 Information Act provides an absolute exemption for information in trans-Pennine such circumstances. 387W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 388W

Scotland Scotland £ million £ million Fiscal Fiscal event Project 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 event Project 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15

Station — 0.0 0.0 0.2 New A5-M1 link — 0.0 2.6 6.8 accessibility road improvements Dualling A30 — 0.0 0.0 0.8 Bridge renewals — 1.2 1.2 0.0 Temple to Carblake Regional Growth — 6.0 33.6 60.4 Fund Basic need: c.100 — 0.0 23.2 59.3 new free schools, 100 free schools — 0.0 30.0 30.0 academies and Basic need capital — 29.0 17.5 13.5 18,000 school Housing: Get — 26.0 16.0 0.5 places by Britain Building expanding good (loan and equity) schools in areas experiencing the Housing: Get — 0.0 -0.5 -4.0 greatest Britain Building demographic (expected income) pressures Housing: Empty — 0.0 2.1 2.1 Schools — 0.0 0.0 15.7 Homes Maintenance Transport — 6.2 42.0 65.1 Regional Growth — 0.0 4.2 10.5 Rail Infrastructure — 1.2 1.2 4.8 Fund 4 Growth and Green — 6.0 33.6 60.4 Flood defences: — 0.0 3.5 8.5 fund full pipeline, Education — 29.0 47.5 43.5 inc. making land Housing — 26.0 17.6 -1.4 available for development in Leeds, Sheffield, Budget Get Britain — 9.3 5.7 -1.5 Exeter, Derby, 2012 Building Ipswich Enterprise Zones — 0.0 2.5 3.4 infrastructure Autumn Empty Homes — 0.0 2.5 5.0 funding statement 2012 FE new building — 0.4 19.1 1.7 and maintenance Affordable — 0.0 5.0 17.6 housing Start up loans— — 0.0 2.4 3.0 funding for 2 more First Buy— — 4.2 23.9 0.0 years interest subsidy AMSCII — 0.0 1.2 1.8 Private Rented — 0.0 5.0 15.0 pump priming (financial Budget First Buy — — 96.5 120.0 transactions) 2013 Public land (NHS — 0.0 9.0 1.0 Build to Rent — — 12.5 37.5 Trust Acquisitions) Affordable — — 0.0 10.5 Housing Large scale — 0.0 2.8 6.2 Start up Loans — — 0.8 1.5 development (Reserve funded) Large scale — 0.0 4.2 9.3 development (financial Stamp Duty Land Tax transactions) Public Land — 0.0 6.1 12.8 Bob Stewart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Investment fund ) what his policy is on levying stamp duty on the sale of Accelerate delivery — 0.0 5.0 4.5 properties under £2 million. [172789] of 4 road schemes Roads pinch point — 0.0 9.5 17.5 fund Mr Gauke: The Government levies stamp duty land tax on properties below £2 million at the following HAandLAroad — 0.0 21.7 11.6 maintenance and rates: renewal Development — 0.0 1.7 2.5 Threshold funding for Rate Residential property Non-residential property Highways Agency Pipeline 0% £0 - £125,000 £0 - £150,0001 Cycling investment — 0.0 1.7 2.5 1% £125,001 - £250,000 £150,001 - £250,000 A1 enhancements — 0.0 3.2 11.0 3% £250,001 - £500,000 £250,001 - £500,000 (Leeming to 4% £500,001 - £1,000,000 Over £500,000 Barton) 5% £1,000,001 - £2,000,000 — A1 enhancements — 0.0 0.2 1.3 10% if annual rent is under £1,000; 1 % if annual rent is £1,000 or (Lobley Hill) more. 389W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 390W

VAT: Charities Crime: Cumbria

Steve Rotheram: To ask the Chancellor of the John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for the Exchequer what was the total value of VAT for sales of Home Department (1) what proportion of thefts from the Justice Collective’s Christmas 2012 charity single. motor vehicles committed in (a) Barrow and Furness [171318] constituency and (b) Cumbria were cleared up by police in each of the last three years; [172364] Mr Gauke: No specific estimate has been made by (2) what proportion of sexual offences committed in HMRC of the total value of VAT for sales of the. (a) Barrow and Furness constituency and (b) Cumbria Justice Collective’s Christmas 2012 charity single. However, were cleared up by police in each of the last three years; following discussions with the distributor, the Government [172365] has proposed a grant of £61,735 to LCVS (Liverpool Charity and Voluntary Services) as a result of its (3) what proportion of violent offences committed in commitment to effectively waive VAT on sales of the (a) Barrow and Furness constituency and (b) Cumbria Justice Collective’s Christmas 2012 charity single. were cleared up by police in each of the last three years. [172366]

Norman Baker [holding answer 25 October 2013]: HOME DEPARTMENT The detection rates for the offences requested are shown for each of the last three years in the Cumbria Police Animal Experiments force area in the following table. These include those offences that were detected by means of a charge/summons, caution, fixed penalty notice, offences taken into Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the consideration (TIC), or a non-sanction detection. Home Department if she will bring forward proposals The data are not available at a lower geographical to repeal section 24 of the Animals (Scientific level than this, and so data for the Barrow and Furness Procedures) Act 1986 in order to open animal constituency cannot be obtained. experiments to the same level of accountability as that which government and other public bodies are already Detection rates by offence type, Cumbria police force area, 2010-11 to 2012-13 subject. [R] [172585] Percentage of offences detected 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 James Brokenshire: We are presently reviewing section 24 of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 Theft from a 775 (ASPA). vehicle Sexual 33 36 31 Central to our work on openness and transparency is offences the review we are undertaking of section 24 which Violence 59 54 52 provides for the protection of confidential information against the provided in connection with our regulatory activities person under ASPA. A breach of section 24 can result in criminal sanctions. The requirements of section 24 are now out of step with our policy on openness and John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for the transparency and with the approach taken in other Home Department what proportion of burglaries in legislation, such as the Freedom of Information Act (a) Barrow and Furness constituency and (b) 2000. The solution we develop must improve the overall Cumbria were cleared up by police in each of the last transparency surrounding research using animals while three years. [172623] protecting personal identities and intellectual property and commercial competitiveness. Norman Baker [holding answer 28 October 2013]: The detection rates for burglaries are shown for each of Arrest Warrants the last three years in the Cumbria police force area in the following table. These include those offences that Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home were detected by means of a charge/summons, caution, Department how many European arrest warrants the fixed penalty notice, offences taken into consideration UK (a) issued and (b) received in (i) 2012 and (ii) (TIC), or a non-sanction detection. 2013 to date. [169072] The data are not available at a lower geographical level than this, and so data for the Barrow and Furness Mr Harper [holding answer 13 September 2013]: I constituency cannot be obtained. have been informed by the National Crime Agency Burglary detection rates, Cumbria police force area, 2010-11 to (NCA) that 271 European arrest warrants (EAWs) were 2012-13 issued and 6,290 EAWs were received by the UK in Percentage of offences detected 2012. 2010-11 20 From 1 January 2013 to 31 March 2013, NCA issued 2011-12 15 47 and received 1,513 EAWs. 2012-13 13 Data from April 2013 onwards are in the process of Note: being validated. Includes both domestic and non-domestic burglaries. 391W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 392W

Entry Clearances: Foreign Workers by Council Decision 2006/560/JHA formalised this cooperation. Council Decision 2003/170/JHA did not Sir James Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for the give rise to any legislative proposals. Home Department how many Tier 5 visas have been As the UK has opted out of this measure, it is issued to people previously in receipt of Tier 5 visas in important to note that on 1 December 2014, the UK each of the last three years; and which organisation will have the power to change operational practices if issued each certificate of sponsorship. [172403] required. At the moment, the Government is content with the arrangements in place and has no plans to Mr Harper [holding answer 25 October 2013]: The do so. information you have requested is not available in the Details of the number of times information and format requested and can be obtained only at assistance was exchanged by Liaison Officers and UK disproportionate cost. authority under the measure in the last five years is not However, as part of its commitment to transparency, held centrally. As of July 2013 (the last time this data the Home Office publishes immigration statistics annually was collated), neither the NCA (nor its predecessor the and quarterly on both Tier 5 visas issued and extensions. Serious Organised Crime Agency) and HM Revenue You may find the quarterly Home Office Immigration and Customs have neither received, nor made, any Statistics April to June 2013 helpful, and in particular requests under this measure. There have been no costs the before entry table ‘be 04 q’ and extensions table ‘ex to UK public funds over the last five years for complying 01 q’, which can be found at the following website: with this Council Decision. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration- statistics-april-to-june-2013/immigration-statistics-april-to-june- Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013#work-1 the Home Department (1) how many searches authorities of other EU member states have carried out EU Justice and Home Affairs on the UK’s fingerprint database in each of the last five years under Article 9 of Council Decision 2008/615/ Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for JHA; how many of these searches resulted in a match; the Home Department (1) what the cost to the public in how many of these cases the UK provided the purse has been of compliance with Council Decision relevant foreign authority with further information 2003/170/JHA in each of the last five years; [171702] following a match; and what action the relevant foreign authority took in each case on the basis of finding such (2) how many times UK liaison officers have (a) a match or receiving such further information; [172045] provided and (b) received information pursuant to Council Decision 2003/170/JHA in each of the last five (2) how many searches of UK vehicle registration years; [171703] data authorities other EU member states have carried out in each of the last five years under Article 12 of (3) how many times UK authorities, including the Council Decision 2008/615/JHA; how many of those Government but not including liaison officers, have (a) searches resulted in a match; and what action the provided and (b) received information pursuant to relevant foreign authority took in each such case on the Council Decision 2003/170/JHA in each of the last five basis of finding such a match; [172043] years; [171704] (3) how many searches UK authorities have carried (4) how many times UK liaison officers have (a) out on the fingerprint databases of other EU member provided and (b) received assistance pursuant to states in each of the last five years under Article 9 of Article 4(2) of Council Decision 2003/170/JHA in each Council Decision 2008/615/JHA; how many of those of the last five years; [171705] searches resulted in a match; in how many of those (5) whether Council Decision 2003/170/JHA, as cases the UK received further information from the amended, gave rise to the introduction of any relevant foreign authority following a match; and what legislative proposals; and what such changes were; action UK authorities took in each case on the basis of [171706] finding such a match or receiving further information; (6) whether the Government will seek to continue the [172044] co-operation established by Council Decision 2003/ (4) how many searches of vehicle registration data of 170/JHA, as amended, if the UK ceases to be bound by another EU member state UK authorities have carried that Council Decision pursuant to Article 10 of the out in each of the last five years under Article 12 of Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU Council Decision 2008/615/JHA; how many of those treaties; what operational and legislative measures searches resulted in a match; and what action UK would be needed to continue this co-operation; and authorities took in each such case on the basis of what assessment she has made of whether this finding such a match; [172046] co-operation will continue to be possible. [171683] (5) how many times the UK has (a) received James Brokenshire [holding answer 21 October 2013]: information from and (b) provided information to The UK Government has co-operated with international other EU member states as a result of Articles 13 and partners on serious and organised crime for many years 14 of Council Decision 2008/615/JHA in each of the and will continue to do so both through the newly last five years; and what assessment she has made of formed National Crime Agency (NCA) and other UK the role such information played in preventing crime authorities. Joint working and law enforcement co-operation and disorder in each case; [172047] occurs on a regular basis between UK officers, government (6) how many searches authorities of other EU officials and our partners from other member states and member states have carried out on the UK’s DNA third countries. Council Decision 2003/170/JHA as amended database under (a) Article 3 and (b) Article 4 of 393W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 394W

Council Decision 2008/615/JHA in each of the last five prosecution should take place where the offence under years; how many of those searches resulted in a match; investigation falls within the jurisdiction of more than in how many of those cases the UK provided the one member state. relevant foreign authority with further information Existing UK law goes further than the requirements following such a match; and what action the relevant of Framework Decision 2002/475/JHA (as amended) in foreign authority took in each case on the basis of most respects. The UK takes extra territorial jurisdiction finding such a match or receiving further information; for the majority of terrorism offences required by the [172048] Framework Decision, with the exception of encouragement (7) how many times UK authorities have collected a and training offences in the Terrorism Act 2006. DNA sample and supplied it to another EU member As the UK has opted out of this measure, the UK state due to a request under Article 7 of Council will not be required to legislate in regards to the Framework Decision 2008/615/JHA; in how many cases the person Decision. It is important to note that on 1 December whose DNA was being obtained was a British national; 2014 the UK will have the power to change legislation and what action the relevant foreign authority took in on this matter in our Parliament. At the moment, the each case using the sample provided; [172049] Government has no intention to bring forward any new (8) how many times UK authorities have obtained a proposals or change current UK law or practice. DNA sample from another EU member state using the provisions of Article 7 of Council Decision 2008/615/ Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for JHA in each of the last five years; and what action UK the Home Department (1) in how many cases in each of authorities took in each case using the sample the last five years the UK has co-operated with other provided; [172052] EU member states owing to Article 7(2) of Council (9) how many searches UK authorities have carried Framework Decision 2008/841/JHA; what the substance out on the DNA databases of other EU member states and outcome of such co-operation was in each case; under (a) Article 3 and (b) Article 4 of the Council whether the Government intends to maintain such Decision 2008/615/JHA in each of the last five years; co-operation unchanged if the UK ceases to be bound how many of those searches resulted in a match; in how by this Framework Decision pursuant to Article 10 of many of these cases the UK received further the Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the information from the relevant foreign authority EU treaties; how such co-operation would be maintained; following a match; and what action the UK authorities and what assessment she has made of the whether this took in each case on the basis of finding a match or would be at least as efficacious as UK participation in receiving further information. [172056] the Framework Decision; [172283] (2) which requirements of Council Framework James Brokenshire [holding answer 22 October 2013]: Decision 2008/841/JHA are implemented by the UK; The UK has not implemented Articles 3, 4, 7n, 9e or 12 [172285] of Council Decision 2008/615/JHA and no information (3) whether the Government intends to retain has been exchanged as a result. The UK has implemented without change existing provisions of UK law and Article 13 and 14 administratively but no requests for practice required by Council Framework Decision information have been received. 2008/841/JHA, if the UK ceases to be bound by that Framework Decision pursuant to Article 10 of the Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU the Home Department (1) in how many cases UK treaties. [172287] authorities have co-operated with the authorities of another EU member state owing to the provisions of James Brokenshire [holding answer 24 October Article 9(2) of Council Framework Decision 2002/475/ 2013]:Council Framework Decision 2008/841/JHA sets JHA, as amended in each of the last five years; what minimum penalties for certain offences related to organised the substance and outcome of such co-operation crime. All requirements of the Framework Decision was in each case; whether the Government intends to have been met through existing domestic law. maintain such co-operation unchanged if the UK ceases to be bound by this Framework Decision Where conflicts of jurisdiction arise it is open to UK pursuant to Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional prosecutors to resolve the matter with their EU counterparts Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; how such co- directly or refer the matter to Eurojust, the EU’s judicial operation would be maintained; and what assessment cooperation Agency. We hold no information centrally she has made of whether this would be at least as on how often conflicts falling within the scope of. efficacious as UK participation in the Framework Article 7(2) have arisen and how they have been Decision; [172113] resolved. We assess that there will be no drop in the (2) what requirements of Council Framework effectiveness of resolving such conflicts through not Decision 2002/475/JHA the UK (a) has and (b) has being bound by this measure. not implemented. [172114] As the UK has opted out of this measure, on 1 December 2014 the UK will have the power to change legislation James Brokenshire [holding answer 23 October 2013]: on this matter in our Parliament. Information is not held centrally on the number of cases arising from the provisions in Article 9(2). The Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State UK does not need to rely on Article 9(2) of Council for the Home Department (1) which requirements Framework Decision 2002/475/JHA (as amended) to of Council Framework Decision 2008/913/JHA are co-operate with member states in. deciding where implemented by the UK; [172284] 395W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 396W

(2) whether the Government intends to retain victims of trafficking by the National Referral without change existing provisions of UK law and Mechanism in (a) the UK and (b) Northern Ireland in practice required by Council Framework Decision each year since its implementation; and how many of 2008/913/JHA, if the UK ceases to be bound by that those permits were issued due to the victim’s personal Framework Decision pursuant to Article 10 of the circumstances. [166857] Protocol on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; [172286] Mr Harper: The information requested can be found (3) what new provisions of law or practice the UK in Table 1 which shows the number of individuals who would need to introduce if it remained bound by were conclusively found to be victims of trafficking and Council Framework Decision 2008/913/JHA after 1 who were granted some form of leave. This includes December 2014. [172288] grants of asylum, humanitarian protection and discretionary leave. James Brokenshire [holding answer 24 October 2013]: Table 1: Grants of leave to conclusive victims of trafficking (VOT), The UK meets all the requirements of the Framework 1 April 2009 and 19 August 2013, United Kingdom and Decision through existing domestic law. We have no Northern Ireland specific criminal offences of publicly condoning, denying Case Outcome VOT or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide; crimes against (Conclusive Grounds) 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 humanity; war crimes; and crimes against peace when Granted a form of leave 20 50 85 130 120 carried out in a manner likely to incite to violence or in the United Kingdom hatred (as referred to in Article 1 (1) (c) and (d) of the (UK) Framework Decision). Any conduct that seeks to incite Granted a form of leave 0*55 0 violence or hatred however is likely to amount to an in Northern Ireland (NI) offence under existing incitement to hatred legislation Notes: in the UK. 1. The figures quoted have been derived from management information and are therefore provisional and subject to change. As the UK has opted out of this measure, there is no This information has not been quality assured under National likelihood that the UK will need to legislate further Statistics .protocols. around Article 1. It is important to note that on 1 December 2. Figures relate to main applicants only. 3. Figures for 2013 cover the period from 1 January to 19 August 2014 the UK will have the power to change legislation 2013. on this matter in our Parliament. At the moment, there 4. Northern Ireland figures are based on the last known address of is currently no intention to change provisions of UK the applicant. Consequently individuals who have relocated will not law. be included. 5. Figures rounded to the nearest 5 (* = 1 or 2) and may not sum to Firearms: Licensing the totals shown because of independent rounding. Immigration: Public Consultation Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many firearms license applications have been rejected on the grounds of a Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for history of (a) domestic violence, (b) violent conduct the Home Department how many responses her and (c) drug or alcohol abuse in each of the last five Department’s recent consultation on immigration and years; if she will investigate trends of such refusals; and private rented housing received; and how many such if she will publish the results of such an investigation in responses were from people who are currently acting as landlords. [168954] the Library. [172735]

Damian Green: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Mr Harper: The Home Office has recently concluded given on 22 October 2013, Official Report, column 92W. a public consultation on requiring landlords to check There are no plans to investigate trends of such refusals. the immigration status of new private tenants. The consultation report includes statistical information on Hilal Abdul-Razzaq Ali al-Jedda the profile of respondents, including the total number of responses received and the percentage of responses Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the from landlords. The report can be found on the www.gov.uk Home Department what assessment she has made of website at this location: the Supreme Court’s decision in the case of Hilal https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Abdul-Razzaq Ali al-Jedda; and if she will make a attachment_data/file/249616/Consultation_Response.pdf statement. [172321] Modern Day Slavery Bill (Draft) Mr Harper [holding answer 25 October 2013]: Iwas disappointed with the Supreme Court’s decision of Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for 9 October 2013. We are now considering the judgment the Home Department what plans she has for and our next steps in the case carefully. It would be pre-legislative scrutiny of her Department’s proposed inappropriate to make any further statement at this Modern Day Slavery Bill. [172332] stage. James Brokenshire [holding answer 25 October 2013]: Human Trafficking: Victims The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs Naomi Long: To ask the secretary of State for the May), has announced her intention to publish a draft Home Department how many residence permits have Bill in December. Arrangements for pre-legislative scrutiny been granted to persons conclusively recognised as are in train and will be confirmed in due course. 397W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 398W

Sexual Offences Convictions Convictions in contested cases Emily Thornberry: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of Contested the Home Department what targets, key performance prosecutions Number % Cases Number % indicators and command objectives the Metropolitan 2008-09 14,353 12,919 90.0 1,111 874 78.7 Police has with regards to (a) rape and (b) sexual offences; whether those targets differed between 2009-10 14,116 12,413 87.9 1,191 862 72.4 2011-12 and 2012-13; and how the Metropolitan Police 2010-11 14,177 12,346 87.1 1,309 958 73.2 performed against these in (i) 2011-12 and (ii) 2012-13. 2011-12 13,638 11,756 86.2 1,501 1,114 74.2 [172357] 2012-13 18,555 16,053 86.5 1,759 1,220 69.4

Damian Green: The Secretary of State has not set As the principal offence category is assigned to the targets for the Metropolitan police on rape or sexual electronic record at the end of the prosecution case, it is offences. This Government has removed centrally imposed not possible to provide information for the number of targets on the police and replaced them with one clear Fraud and Forgery categorised cases referred to the objective—to cut crime. Policing priorities in London CPS for a charging decision or the outcome of those are set by the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime charging decisions. (MOPAC), through the Police and Crime Plan, and it is MOPAC’s responsibility to hold the Metropolitan police to account for delivery against the priorities set out in Human Trafficking: Prosecutions the plan. Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how many human trafficking-flagged cases have been (a) ATTORNEY-GENERAL referred to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for a charging decision, (b) subject to a decision by the CPS Charities Act 2006 to take no further action, (c) subject to a CPS decision to be cautioned, (d) prosecuted, (e) prosecuted Lisa Nandy: To ask the Attorney-General what successfully and (f) prosecuted successfully where the reports the Law Officers’ Departments have laid before defendant contested the charge in each of the last five each House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of years. [172354] the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172928] The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service The Solicitor-General: None. (CPS) maintains a central record of the numbers of Corruption: Public Service cases involving human trafficking by way of a database monitoring flag applied to the electronic case record. Collection of this information commenced from 1 April Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Attorney-General how 2010. many people have been prosecuted for (a) bribery of foreign public officials and (b) failure to prevent such The following table shows the number of human bribery since July 2011. [172662] trafficking flagged cases referred to the CPS for a pre-charge decision (PCD) and the number of suspects The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office has where a decision to charge, take no further action or to started proceedings against 14 individuals for bribery of issue an out of court disposal, including a caution, was foreign officials since July 2011. All of these relate to made: pre-Bribery Act offences. Number of There have been no prosecutions for failing to prevent Human Out of court bribery of foreign officials in this period. Trafficking Disposal Flagged Decision to (including No further Fraud: Prosecutions PCDs Charge caution) action

2010-11 163 98 0 32 Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how 2011-12 113 83 0 11 many fraud cases have been (a) referred to the Crown 2012-13 131 91 0 23 Prosecution Service (CPS) for a charging decision, (b) subject to a decision by the CPS to take no further action, (c) subject to a CPS decision to be cautioned, The following table sets out the number of human (d) prosecuted, (e) prosecuted successfully and (f) trafficking flagged prosecutions and their outcomes for prosecuted successfully where the defendant contested the periods since flagging began: the charge in each of the last five years. [172355] Convictions Convictions in Contested Cases The Solicitor-General: CPS prosecutions are categorised Number of Contested according to 12 principal offence categories. These Prosecutions Number % Cases Number % categorises are assigned at the end of a prosecution to indicate the most serious offence with which a defendant 2010-11 103 73 70.9 27 16 59.3 is charged at the time of finalisation. Details for prosecutions 2011-12 142 94 66.2 22 12 54.5 where the principal offence category was Fraud and 2012-13 139 99 71.2 34 27 79.4 Forgery are as follows: 399W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 400W

Police: Surveillance for domestic violence to build an evidence base on any police use of out of court disposals and community resolutions for violence against women and girls. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Attorney-General what 3. That the CPS investigates further the proportion of violence the policy of the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) is against women and girls cases being charged across police force on seeking prosecution of police officers accused of areas. crimes whilst working undercover; whether the CPS is 4. That the Home Office provide information about the provision taking steps to examine whether there is adequate of Independent Domestic Violence Advisers and their contribution evidence to charge Bob Lambert in relation to actions to successful criminal justice outcomes. undertaken whilst operating undercover for the 5. That the CPS and the National Policing lead for rape Metropolitan Police; and if he will make a statement. convene a joint-National Scrutiny Panel to further investigate the [172846] fall in the number of rape cases referred. The findings will be published at the earliest opportunity. The Solicitor-General: Where it is suspected that police 6. That the CPS and Home Office work with National Policing officers have committed crimes while working undercover, leads and Police and Crime Commissioners to continue to raise the police, or the Independent Police Complaints awareness about violence against women and girls and provide Commission, will carry out a full investigation. The further guidance on domestic violence cases where the victim has Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) will review any cases indicated that they are not willing to support the prosecution. referred to it by the police in accordance with the two Serious Fraud Office stage test that is set out in the Code for Crown Prosecutors. Where there is sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General of conviction and a prosecution is required in the public pursuant to the answer of 14 October 2013, Official interest, such cases will be prosecuted. Report, column 440W, on Serious Fraud Office, which As a matter of general policy, the CPS will neither closed investigations of the Serious Fraud Office were confirm nor deny whether an individual is or was an authorised by (a) Richard Alderman, (b) Phillippa undercover officer. The CPS works closely with officers Williamson and (c) the Tactical Tasking and conducting investigations into the conduct of undercover Coordination Group. [171494] officers. The Solicitor-General: Of the 58 cases accepted for Prosecutions investigation between 2008 and 2012, four of those accepted for investigation by Richard Alderman are Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General now closed; 21 of those accepted by Phillippa Williamson what the findings were of the Director of Public are now closed; eight of those accepted by the Tactical Prosecutions’ inquiry into falling referrals for charge in Tasking and Coordination Group are now closed. A case of rape, domestic violence and child abuse; if he further 25 cases remain open. will place those findings in the Library; and if he will Of those cases which were tried, those relating to make a statement. [172356] D J Litt; Steele, Shephard and Pattinson; and Kallakis and Williams were accepted by Phillippa Williamson. A The Solicitor-General: Improving the approach to further case, relating to Amec plc, which resulted in a violence against women and girls prosecutions continues civil recovery order, was also accepted by Phillippa to be a key priority for the Crown Prosecution Service. Williamson. (CPS). The CPS Annual Violence Against Women and Girls Crime Report for 2012-13: It would not be appropriate to give further details about other cases. This is to protect the investigatory http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/ cps_vawg_report_2013.pdf process, and to avoid any prejudice to current or future investigations. outlines that three out of four prosecutions for violence against women and girls now result in a conviction and that conviction rates for domestic violence and rape are at their highest recorded levels. The report also outlines COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT falls in the numbers of flagged cases of domestic violence, Bellwin Scheme rape and child abuse referred from the police to the CPS for a charging decision. On 26 September 2013, the Director of Public Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Prosecutions met with representatives from the Home Communities and Local Government how many Office, National Policing leads for rape and domestic applications for Bellwin Scheme funding have been violence and other interested parties to consider the rejected by his Department since May 2010; and who possible reasons for the reduction in the referral rate. made each unsuccessful application. [172733] The following six actions were agreed at the meeting: Brandon Lewis: No formal applications for Bellwin 1. Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary to share the Scheme funding have been rejected since May 2010. Terms of Reference of its inspection into the effectiveness of the police response to domestic violence and abuse across England Empty Property: Shops and Wales, and to ensure close liaison with the CPS and the Attorney-General’s Office (AGO). The findings from the inspection are due to report by April 2014. Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. That the Home Office, CPS and AGO liaise closely with the Communities and Local Government what steps he is Ministry of Justice on its work to review the use of out of court taking to bring empty retail premises back into use; disposals in the context of violence against women and girls and what funding his Department has provided for this cases; and that the Home Office and the National Policing lead purpose since May 2010. [172727] 401W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 402W

Brandon Lewis: We have cut small business rates and Housing: Construction given councils a financial incentive to support high streets. Changes to planning rules mean that it is now easier to change the use of buildings. Consultation Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for closed earlier this month on further relaxations of planning Communities and Local Government (1) what rules to make it easier to bring empty and underused assessment he has made of the effect on house building buildings back to life, revitalising high streets and providing of his plans to transfer £400 million of New Homes much-needed homes. We have also confirmed our intention Bonus funding to local enterprise partnerships; [171735] to amend the Community Infrastructure Levy Regulations (2) whether the £400 million which is being to make it easier to bring vacant shops and other town transferred from local authorities’ New Homes Bonus centre units back into use without becoming liable for funds into local enterprise partnerships budgets will be the levy. These changes will help town centre landlords counted as local authority budget cuts. [171736] make better use of their empty properties, get more Kris Hopkins: The proposal for local authorities to start-up businesses set up in the high street, and see a pool a proportion of their New Homes Bonus in 2015-16 third of a million small businesses paying no rates at all. was the subject of a technical consultation carried out In addition, Government has provided communities between July and September this year. That consultation across the country with a multi-million pound package set out our expectation that authorities would receive of support so they can try new ideas to drive their local the New Homes Bonus they had earned, and that economy. Beyond the Portas Pilots and Town Team pooling would be local. We are currently considering Partners, who shared over £5.6 million, Government the responses to the consultation and will announce a has invested £10 million through the High Street Innovation way forward in due course. Fund in the 100 areas with the highest empty property Government support and investment in housing is rates and those affected by the riots, and £1 million of having an effect. Housing supply is now at its highest High Street Renewal Awards. This is alongside more since 2008, with 334,000 new homes built over the last than £115 million of Government funding to boost three years. In the most recent quarter, housing starts enterprise and initiate business start ups. are up by 33% on last year. Government has also committed £235 million of Mortgage Repossessions (Protection of Tenants direct funding, to help local authorities, housing associations etc) Act 2010 and community groups tackle the most problematic empty properties, which would not otherwise come Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for back into use. The last funding round had a particular Communities and Local Government how many emphasis on refurbishing former commercial and high households have used the provisions of the Mortgage street properties. Repossessions (Protections of Tenants) Act 2010 since We are working with an industry-led taskforce to its implementation. [172495] explore distressed commercial property and its causes. Kris Hopkins: The published impact assessment This is due to publish its report soon. Finally, we supporting the legislation estimated that between 5,000 established the Future High Streets Forum which is and 20,000 tenants would be protected from short notice advising the Government how better use could be made eviction between 2010 and 2020. The impact assessment of existing buildings, including with pop up shops. is available from the Library of the House. Her Majesty’s Courts Service do not collect data on the number of court hearings under the Mortgage Repossessions (Protections of Tenants) Act 2010. Most Fire Services: Pensions tenants will have benefited from the legislation without attending court. Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Second Homes: Cumbria Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the average cost to individual members of John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for implementation of his proposed changes to the Communities and Local Government what recent Firefighters’ Pension Scheme. [172725] estimate he has made of the number of second homes in the (a) Barrow-in-Furness and (b) South Lakeland council areas. [172973] Brandon Lewis: No estimate has been made of the average costs or benefits to individual members of Brandon Lewis: In October 2012 Barrow-in-Furness implementation of the proposed changes to the firefighters’ council reported there were 370 dwellings registered as pension schemes, which will vary significantly according second homes for council tax purposes. At the same to their circumstances. Over half of all firefighters will time, 3,824 dwellings in South Lakeland were registered see no change in their retirement age and a greater as second homes. proportion of firefighters are being protected from the The data are from a snapshot taken each year and are change in normal pension age than in any other large as recorded by each local authority in the Council Tax public sector work force. Base returns submitted annually to the Department for The Government has published a pension calculator Communities and Local Government. to allow firefighters to work out their pension changes. Information for October 2013 will be published on The calculator can be found at: the https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firefighters- www.gov.uk pension-scheme-reforms-pension-scheme-calculator website in November 2013. 403W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 404W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he Arms Trade: Egypt has made to the head of the Office for National Statistics on the production of statistics so that the Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for scale and efect of the use of zero-hour contracts in Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer the (a) health and care sectors, (b) retail sector, of 15 October 2013, Official Report, column 667W, on (c) hospitality sector and (d) construction sector can Egypt, if he will publish (a) summary descriptions of be studied and considered. [172463] the goods that may be transferred and (b) information regarding any limits placed on the end users within Egypt for each extant open export and trade licences Jo Swinson: On 16 October 2013 the Secretary of for transfers of controlled goods to Egypt. [172394] State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), Michael Fallon: Annual report summary descriptions wrote to the Office for National Statistics (ONS) making for all extant licences will be placed in the Libraries of clear his concern about the lack of reliable statistics the House. There may be duplication with some annual available on zero hours contracts. He asked the ONS, report summaries, as the information has been downloaded working with officials from other Government from extant licences on a live system and then merged Departments, to: as much as possible to reduce the length of this response. consider ONS and other non-ONS sources of statistics on zero No open licences have had their coverage reduced as hours contracts, commenting on their strengths and weaknesses a result of the suspension mechanism being introduced. so that a clear and comprehensive picture of the available statistical Open licences of concern have been suspended outright. information in this area is made public, and determine how the different estimates (e.g. from ONS outputs Business: Regulation from the Labour Force Survey and the forthcoming ONS business survey) are described, and that the differences between the statistics Bob Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for are clearly explained, including information on margins of error Business, Innovation and Skills what progress he has around the statistics. made on implementing the recommendations of Cut The ONS has launched a public consultation about the Red Tape: Report from the Business Taskforce. the collection on zero hours contracts statistics on an [172837] existing employer survey.The consultation asks respondents Michael Fallon: The Business Taskforce presented its to comment on what data on zero hours contracts they report to Cabinet on 15 October. The Prime Minister would find useful, including industry breakdowns. The hosted a meeting on 25 October in Brussels with consultation closes on 12 November 2013. Commission President Barroso and a group of other BIS has yet to decide how it will respond to the EU leaders, at which taskforce members presented their consultation, but is likely to request that ONS provides report. The European Council explicitly welcomed the statistics on zero hours contracts by broad industry steps taken by member states to identify excessively level. burdensome legislation, and agreed on the need for further substantial efforts to reduce the burden of EU regulation. It will return to this subject at its meeting in Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for June. The Government will continue to press the EU to Business, Innovation and Skills if he will request that implement the recommendations in the taskforce report the head of the Office for National Statistics produces and to move faster to reform the way it regulates. (a) regional, (b) local and (c) parliamentary constituency statistics for zero-hours contracts. [172465] Conditions of Employment

Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Jo Swinson: The Office for National Statistics (ONS) Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has received has opened a consultation on its planned collection of a timescale from the Head of the Office for National zero hours contract statistics from employers on its Statistics as to when a new regular estimate of website on 23 October 2013. This consultation will zero-hour contracts will be published; and when close on 12 November 2013. In the consultation document, statistics under this estimate will be available. [172459] the ONS asks about the type of categories that the statistics could be usefully presented for. Jo Swinson: The Office for National Statistics (ONS) The consultation can be viewed at has opened a consultation on its planned collection of zero hours contract statistics from employers on its http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/get-involved/ website on 23 October 2013. This consultation will consultations/consultations/zero-hours-consultation/index.html close on 12 November 2013. In the consultation document, The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills the ONS states that full-scale data collection on zero has yet to decide how it will respond to the consultation, hours contracts will commence on its selected employer but is likely to request that ONS provides statistics on survey in February 2014, if an earlier pilot study proves zero hours contracts at the country level. successful. It is unlikely to request that ONS produce statistics Early results from this February data collection will on zero hours contracts at the regional, local authority be presented in March 2013. or parliamentary constituency level, as the cost of such The consultation can be viewed at: collection would be prohibitive relative to any added http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/get-involved/ value they would provide when considering the policy consultations/consultations/zero-hours-consultation/index.html issues. 405W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 406W

Degrees Overseas Trade: Asia

Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to his answers Business, Innovation and Skills what the level of of 10 October 2013, Official Report, columns 364-6W (a) exports and (b) imports between the UK and its and 18 October 2013, Official Report, column 876W, if top 20 trading partners in Asia was in each of the last he will estimate the average annual cost in 2014-15 of a five years by sector. [172924] (a) full-time two year degree taught at a further education college, (b) full-time two year degree taught Michael Fallon: The information will be placed in the at an English higher education institution (HEI), Libraries of the House. (c) full-time three year degree taught at an English Overseas Trade: China HEI and (d) four year degree taught at an English HEI. [172969] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: Estimates of the average annual cost in Business, Innovation and Skills what the level of (a) (b) 2014-15 are not available at the level of detail requested. exports and imports between the UK and The answer provided on 10 October 2013 made use of China was in each of the last five years by sector. several existing estimates for typical undergraduates [172923] which cannot be readily adjusted for specific subsets of students. Michael Fallon: Figures on UK trade in goods with China since 2008, broken down by commodity traded, are in Table 1 as follows. The data are sourced from Her Green Investment Bank Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Overseas Trade Statistics database and are publicly available on Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK Trade Info website: Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions www.uktradeinfo.com he has had with officials from the Green Investment Data by sector (industry) are not available as bilateral Bank on that bank’s ability to borrow. [172657] trade in goods statistics are only published in terms of commodities. Michael Fallon: The Department remains in close 2011 and 2012 data on UK trade in services with consultation with the Green Investment Bank about its China, by type of service, are given in Table 2, taken funding needs including the bank’s ability to borrow. from the latest (2013) ONS ‘Pink Book’ publication. Ministers and officials discussed these matters with the Data for 2008-2010 are available from Tables 9.10 and bank in the context of the recent spending review 9.11 of previous editions of the Pink Book which can decision to allocate an additional £800 million to the be downloaded from the link below: bank for the 2015-16 period with scope to borrow up to http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/bop/united-kingdom-balance- £500 million of that allocation from the National Loans of-payments/index.html Fund. Table 1: UK trade in goods with China Value (£ million) Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions 2012 2011 2010 2009 2008 he has had with officials from the Green Investment UK exports to China: Bank on EU state aid restrictions. [172658] SITC1 0-Foodandlive 107 97 60 46 36 Michael Fallon: BIS officials work closely with the animals Green Investment Bank and discuss a range of matters, 1 - Beverages and 83 78 61 51 50 including possible amendments to the bank’s state aid tobacco approval. A renewed approval will be required for the 2 - Crude materials, 1,413 1,598 1,200 945 823 bank to operate beyond October 2016 and before then inedible, except fuels the UK must also obtain further Commission approval 3 - Mineral fuels, 19 86 83 28 24 for the additional funds it proposes to allocate to the lubricants and related bank for the 2015-16 period. The UK must also obtain materials further Commission approvals if it wishes to include 4 - Animal and 12121 vegetable oils, fats and additional sectors within the bank’s approved remit. waxes 5 - Chemicals and 1,253 1,094 895 755 562 Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for related products, nes Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions 6 - Manufactured goods 592 679 557 511 625 he has had with EU officials on state aid restrictions on classified chiefly by the Green Investment Bank. [172659] material 7 - Machinery and 5,675 4,423 3,784 2,354 2,313 transport equipment Michael Fallon: Officials have now begun discussing 8 - Miscellaneous 704 704 579 431 433 with the European Commission possible amendments manufactured articles to the GIB state approval including the UK’s proposal 9 - Commodities/ 45 11 5 4 3 to allocate a further £800 million of funding to the transactions not class’d bank for the 2015-16 period in addition to the £3 billion elsewhere in SITC of state funding the Commission has already approved. Total 9,892 8,772 7,225 5,129 4,870 407W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 408W

Table 1: UK trade in goods with China Jo Swinson: Beyond the information published on the Value (£ million) relevant Government and public sector contract finder 2012 2011 2010 2009 2008 websites, details of bids and tenders for contracts submitted for by Post Office Ltd and other bidders are commercially UK Imports from China: confidential between the contracting and bidding parties SITC1 479 489 426 341 348 and are not subject to external scrutiny other than in 0-Foodandlive 24 25 19 23 19 exceptional circumstances. animals 1 - Beverages and 240 242 239 194 214 More widely, the Government supports Post Office tobacco Ltd’s ambition to become a Front Office for Government, 2 - Crude materials, 74818853noting that the company has won every Government inedible, except fuels contract it has bid for in the last two years. 3 - Mineral fuels, 19 12 7 8 6 lubricants and related Post Office: Northern Ireland materials 4 - Animal & vegetable 1,250 1,235 1,006 737 810 Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for oils, fats and waxes Business, Innovation and Skills how many government 5 - Chemicals and 4,688 4,852 4,308 3,316 3,752 contracts won by Post Office Ltd in the last 10 years related products, nes have been awarded in Northern Ireland. [172348] 6 - Manufactured goods 11,162 11,149 10,258 8,037 7,297 classified chiefly by material Jo Swinson: Securing and retaining contracts to provide 7 - Machinery and 11,954 11,870 11,637 9,871 9,265 services on behalf of central and local government, is transport equipment an operational matter for Post Office Ltd. I have therefore 8 - Miscellaneous 198 233 310 335 204 asked Paula Vennells, chief executive of Post Office manufactured articles Ltd, to respond directly to the hon. Member and a copy 9 - Commodities/ 30,021 30,156 28,228 22,871 21,968 of her reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House. transactions not class’d elsewhere in SITC Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Total Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Source: made of the effect on the income of post offices in HMRC Overseas Trade Statistics database Northern Ireland of recent measures to modernise the https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/BuildYourOwnTables/Pages/ network. [172349] Home.aspx Table 2: Trade in services by type of service Jo Swinson: In 2010, the Government committed to £ million provide £1.34 billion to 2015 to both maintain the Post Exports to China Imports from China Office network, and to provide for the modernisation of 2011 2012 2011 2012 up to 6,000 branches under the Network Transformation Transportation 994 723 386 394 programme, which rolled out nationally in October Travel 833 882 340 351 2012. Communications 60 75 42 49 At the end of September 2013, the subpostmasters Construction 37 81 11 19 and operators of 1,870 post offices had signed contracts Insurance 106 100 110 133 to convert their branches to new operating models Financial 233 198 79 32 under the Network Transformation programme. 65 of Computer and 72 106 19 21 these branches are in Northern Ireland. information Subpostmasters converting under Network Royalties and 52 123 2 2 Transformation benefit from investment into their branches license fees and transitional payments. Customers are benefitting Other business 695 765 280 358 from much longer opening hours, and improved branches. services Research shows that converted branches are seeing an 1 Personal, 58 59 —4average increase of 10% in post office customers, and cultural and recreational 12% in retail sales. Government 15 16 1—6 Total services 3155 3128 1280 1369 1 Indicates that data might be disclosive and have therefore been ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS omitted. ONS estimates of trade in services are based on survey data provided by businesses. Statistical disclosure control is conducted to Bovine Tuberculosis protect each businesses from identification in published outputs, which means that in some cases, data has been suppressed as in the table above Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many ONS Pink Book 2013 recorded incidents of TB in bison there have been in the UK in each of the last five years for which figures Post Office are available. [172591]

Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for George Eustice: There have been three cases of TB Business, Innovation and Skills what value of recorded in bison in the UK during the last five years. Government contracts has been won by Post Office Ltd One case in 2010, one case in 2011, and one case in in the last two years. [172350] 2012. (All these cases were recorded in Great Britain). 409W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 410W

Food Forests

Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his of the UK’s food supply is produced (a) in the UK Department is taking to encourage sustainable forest and (b) abroad. [172842] management in (a) the UK, (b) Europe and (c) developing countries. [172197] George Eustice: Food production to supply ratio is calculated as the farm gate value of raw food production Dan Rogerson: In 2011 the Forestry Commission (including for export) divided by the value of raw food published the UK Forestry Standard, the reference for human consumption. It provides a broad indicator standard for sustainable forest management in the UK. of the ability of UK agriculture to meet consumer This is supported by a series of guidelines that: set out demand. our approach to sustainable forest management; define The ratio in 2012 was 62% for all food and 76% for standards and requirements; and provide a basis for indigenous type food. regulation and monitoring. The Forestry and Woodlands Source: Policy Statement for England, published in January, makes protection our top priority and strongly supports Food Statistics Pocketbook 2013: an increase in sustainable woodland management. This https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ includes working with partners across the UK to combat attachment_data/file/243770/foodpocketbook-2013report- the threats from tree pests and diseases. 19sep13.pdf At the European level we are currently engaged in Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for negotiation of a new EU Forest Strategy, which aims to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent improve sustainable forest management across the EU assessment he has made of the current level of the through improving best practice and through creating UK’s food security. [172843] links between EU and member state policies and initiatives. We are also negotiating a legally binding agreement George Eustice: The UK Food Security Assessment on sustainable forest management as part of Forest published in 2010 is a detailed analysis of the global Europe, a process involving 46 countries from the pan- and domestic factors affecting UK food security, including European region including the EU, Balkan states, Russia productivity, supply, affordability and safety. The and Turkey. Government continues to monitor trends, but overall DEFRA supports sustainable forest management in the assessment concludes that the UK is well placed to developing countries through supply- and demand-side deal with future challenges. In 2012 officials reassessed measures to combat trade in illegally harvested timber the report and concluded that it still represents a robust and timber products. We have introduced legislation to analysis of food security in the UK. implement the EU Timber Regulations through the Timber and Timber Products (Placing on the Market) Food: Imports Regulation, which came into force in March 2013. In addition, the Forest Law Enforcement Governance and Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Trade Regulations came into force in February 2012; Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion these are based on bilateral relationships with timber- of the UK’s imported food supply enters the UK by exporting developing countries. (a) land, (b) shipping and (c) air freight. [172841] Additionally, DEFRA’s £140 million share of the £3.87 billion International Climate Fund is ring-fenced George Eustice: The information available suggests for forestry projects, including those on sustainable that in terms of tonnage of food less than 1% of total forest management, in developing countries. food imported into the UK comes by air freight. The remainder (greater than 99%) comes by sea, the channel Grown in Britain, a major sector led initiative to tunnel and the land border between Northern Ireland develop forestry’s economic engine, has the UK Forestry and the Republic of Ireland. . Standard at its core. It is not possible to separate out the proportion coming via land routes but it is thought that this will be relatively small (less than 10%). FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Food: Poverty Iran: Nuclear Proliferation

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 16. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for representations he has received on nuclear proliferation Work and Pensions on the effect of that Department’s in Iran. [900745] policies on food poverty in the UK; and if he will make a statement. [172902] Hugh Robertson: As part of the E3+3, the UK plays a key role in efforts to reach a negotiated solution to the George Eustice: There have been no ministerial Iranian nuclear issue. While respecting the confidentiality discussions between the Secretary of State for Environment, of negotiations, we continue to discuss nuclear proliferation Food and Rural Affairs and the Secretary of State for in Iran with a range of interested governments and Work and Pensions on this issue. international organisations. 411W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 412W

Eritrea Sri Lanka

17. Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the UK’s relations with assessment he has made of the human rights situation Eritrea. [900746] in Sri Lanka. [900749] Mark Simmonds: We are extremely concerned about Mr Swire: The UK has serious concerns about the the human rights situation in Eritrea, including human human rights situation in Sri Lanka, including on freedom trafficking and abuse of migrants. We engage with the of expression and judicial independence. We consistently Eritrean Government at every opportunity. I raised our press for progress through our engagement with the Sri human rights concerns with the Eritrean Foreign Minister Lankan Government, international organisations and in July. other states. The Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Egypt Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), and I will use our attendance at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting to see the situation on 18. Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for the ground and raise our concerns directly with the Sri Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Lankan Government. assessment he has made of developments in Egypt and stability in the middle east. [900747] Exports

Hugh Robertson: Egypt is in the midst of a difficult Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign political transition. I believe for long-term stability, it and Commonwealth Affairs what progress his needs an inclusive political process leading to early and Department has made in increasing exports to (a) fair elections which all parties are able to contest, and established and (b) emerging markets since May 2010. for all sides to refrain from violence. Egypt occupies an [172299] important role in the middle east, and a stable, democratic Mr Swire: Export driven growth remains a top priority Egypt would also contribute to wider regional stability. for this Government. Promoting UK prosperity is increasingly central to what the Foreign and Burma Commonwealth Office (FCO) does. We have taken major steps forward in transforming the culture and capabilities 22. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State in commercial work in the FCO in the past two years. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Our network shift has allowed us to open or upgrade 14 steps he has taken to support human rights in Burma, posts since 2010, increasing our presence in the Emerging in accordance with recent resolutions of the UN Powers and strengthening our existing posts in Asia, Human Rights Council. [900751] Latin America and parts of Africa and increase our programme spend. Mr Swire: The UK is active in support of UN Human Since 2009, UK exports rose by 23%, in the wake of Rights Council resolutions on Burma and human rights the deepest recession in post war history. Growth in remain at the heart of our policy towards the country. exports has been driven by demand in the emerging We lobby for the release of all political prisoners, provide markets e.g. UK Exports to Emerging markets 2009-12 expertise on ethnic reconciliation and support to the to South Korea were up 103%, Thailand 84%, China, Rohingya. My hon. Friends the Prime Minister, the (excluding Hong Kong) 80%, Russia 76%, Brazil 64%, Foreign Secretary, the Secretary of State for Defence India 48%. and the Secretary of State for International Development In 2012, UK export growth was largely flat, in part and I discussed a broad range of human rights and due to slowdown in emerging markets and the Eurozone democracy issues with Aung San Suu Kyi in London which is only now coming out of a deep recession. last week and with President Thein Sein in July. Exports to the US grew by over 8% in the last two years. Zimbabwe: Pension Payments Gibraltar: Spain

23. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what and Commonwealth Affairs what representation he has representations his Department has made to the made to his Spanish counterpart about the imposition Government of Zimbabwe since the most recent of fees and charges for people and goods moving into elections in that country on the withdrawal of pension and out of Gibraltar by land. [172464] payments to UK citizens. [900752] Mr Lidington: On 6 August 2013 we informed the Mark Simmonds: The Government of Zimbabwe has Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the British previously committed to paying pensions to British Government’s deep concern about reports that the Spanish nationals and is seeking a mechanism to do so. With the Government was considering the imposition of charges new Zimbabwe Government now appointed, we will at the Gibraltar/Spain border. While these reports were seek an update on this issue at the earliest opportunity, of concern, no charges have been imposed. We continue and continue to highlight the importance of this issue to respond to actions and not rhetoric, consistent with to British nationals. our call for de-escalation of the situation at the border. 413W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 414W

Iran Justine Greening: Under the previous Multi-annual Financial Framework (2007-13), negotiated when the Sir Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for hon. Member was Minister for Europe, EU aid investments Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) if he discussed funded projects in Belarus, regardless of progress on religious freedom in Iran with Special Rapporteur Dr reform. This Government has ensured that under the Ahmed Shaheed at the Interactive Dialogue at the UN next MFF (2014-20), where reforms on democracy and on 23 October 2013; and if he will make a statement; human rights have not taken place, funding to governments [172723] can be reduced or withdrawn. (2) if he will raise the human rights for Baha’i in Iran The UK does not have a bilateral aid programme to with the Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or Belarus. The UK provides indirect support to Belarus belief, at the Interactive Dialogue at the UN on 29 through the EU’s European Neighbourhood Programme October 2013; and if he will make a statement. [172734] (ENP), the policy for which is determined and assessed by the FCO. Hugh Robertson: Our officials made a statement expressing our concerns about the treatment of the Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Baha’i and other religious minorities with Special International Development how much her Department Rapporteur Dr Ahmed Shaheed on 23 October during spends annually in Belarus (a) directly and (b) with the UN General Assembly. The UK will continue to multilateral organisations; and on what programmes urge Iran to respect the human rights of all its citizens. such funding is spent. [172910]

Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Justine Greening: Under the previous Multi-annual and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what recent assessment Financial Framework (2007-13), negotiated when the he has made of the human rights situation in Iran and hon. Member was Minister for Europe, EU aid investments the persecution of people from religious minorities in funded projects in Belarus, regardless of progress on that country; [172827] reform. This Government has ensured that under the next MFF (2014-20), where reforms on democracy and (2) what assessment has he made of the most recent human rights have not taken place, funding to governments report by the UN Special Rapporteur on human rights can be reduced or withdrawn. in Iran and freedom of religion in that country. [172904] DFID no longer has a bilateral programme in Belarus. The latest available information on the UK’s share of Hugh Robertson: We are deeply concerned by the multilateral net Official Development Assistance in Belarus high level of human rights abuses in Iran—including is £3.5 million in 2011. Information on which programmes the use of the death penalty and the persecution of in Belarus each of the multilateral organisations spends religious minorities as highlighted in the UN Special funding on is not readily available. Rapporteur’s report. While there have been some recent positive developments—in particular the release of a Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for number of political prisoners—Iran’s overall human International Development (1) how many times (a) rights record remains appalling. she, (b) Ministers in her Department and (c) officials in her Department have visited Belarus since May Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 2010; [172912] and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations (2) how many times she has met Ministers from the he has made to his Iranian counterpart on the situation Belarusian Government since taking office. [172913] of members of the Bahá’i faith. [172905] Justine Greening: Under the previous Multi-annual Hugh Robertson: On 23 September the Secretary of Financial Framework (2007-13), negotiated when the State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Member was Minister for Europe, EU aid investments right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) funded projects in Belarus, regardless of progress on (Mr Hague), raised human rights in Iran with the reform. This Government has ensured that under the Iranian Foreign Minister in the margins of the UN next MFF (2014-20), where reforms on democracy and General Assembly. On 23 October, the UK released a human rights have not taken place, funding to governments statement at the UN General Assembly in response to can be reduced or withdrawn. the UN Special Rapporteur’s report on the human No DFID Ministers or officials in my Department rights situation in Iran. This highlighted the UK’s have visited Belarus or received officials from the Belarusian concerns about the persecution of the Bahá’i community Government since May 2010. and other religious minorities in Iran. EU Aid

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT International Development in which countries her Department’s contribution to EuropeAid is directed. Belarus [172914]

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justine Greening: Under the previous Multi-annual International Development what assessment she has Financial Framework (2007-13), negotiated when the made of the effectiveness of UK-funded aid programmes hon. Member was Minister for Europe, EU aid investments in Belarus. [172906] funded projects in Belarus, regardless of progress on 415W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 416W reform. This Government has ensured that under the each of the last five years; and what the substance and next MFF (2014-20), where reforms on democracy and outcome of the co-operation was in each case; [171696] human rights have not taken place, funding to governments (4) in how many cases the Gibraltarian authorities can be reduced or withdrawn. have co-operated with the authorities of one or more Recipient countries of member state contributions to EU member states due to the provisions of Article 9(2) the EU budget and the European Development Fund of the Convention on the fight against corruption are listed in Table 5.11 of the 2013 EuropeAid Annual involving officials of the European Communities or Report. officials of member states of the European Union in The UK has led the way in pressing for the number of each of the last five years; and what the substance and recipients of EU aid under the next MFF (2014-20) to outcome of the co-operation was in each case; [171697] be reduced. Under the changes, upper-middle income (5) which requirements of the Convention on the countries including Brazil, China and India will no fight against corruption involving officials of the longer receive bilateral grant assistance under the European Communities or officials of member states Development Cooperation Instrument. The MFF is of the European Union Gibraltar (a) does and (b) now subject to approval by the European Parliament. does not implement; [171698] (6) what laws or practices implement in Gibraltar the requirements of the Convention of the fight against corruption involving officials of the European JUSTICE Communities or officials of member states of the European Union; and what conversations he has had Children and Young Persons Act 1933 with the government of Gibraltar on whether that body intends to retain these implementing measures Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for unchanged if Gibraltar ceases to be bound by the Justice if he will bring forward legislative proposals to Convention pursuant to Article 10 of the Protocol on amend section 39 of the Children and Young Persons Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties. Act 1933 so that it explicitly applies to social media. [171699] [172911] Mr Vara: The implementation of anti-corruption Jeremy Wright: The Government is currently considering legislation in Gibraltar is the constitutional competence the existing law on reporting restrictions in cases involving of HM Government of Gibraltar. The UK Government under-18s, including social (electronic) media. has therefore made no assessment of the usefulness of co-operation involving Gibraltar undertaken as a result Corruption: EU Law of Article 9(1) or Article 9(2) of the Convention on the fight against corruption involving officials of the European Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities or officials of member states of the European Justice (1) what assessment he has made of the Union. Many of the matters covered have now been usefulness of co-operation involving Gibraltar superseded by other measures. It will be for HM undertaken as a result of Article 9(2) of the Government of Gibraltar in consultation with the Foreign Convention on the fight against corruption involving and Commonwealth Office to decide whether to continue officials of the European Communities or officials of international cooperation unchanged. Member States of the European Union in the fight The UK Government does not hold data relating against the offences in question; whether the specifically to co- operation of the Gibraltarian authorities Government of Gibraltar has indicated that it intends with the authorities of one or more other EU member to maintain this co-operation unchanged if Gibraltar states owing to the provisions of Articles 9(1) and (2) of ceases to be bound by the Convention pursuant to the Convention. The maintenance of such data is a Article 10 of the Protocol on Transitional Provisions matter for the Government of Gibraltar. The annexed to the EU treaties; and how such co-operation implementation of the requirements of the Convention would be maintained; [171685] is also a matter for the Government of Gibraltar. On (2) what assessment he has made of the usefulness this basis, I have had no conversations with the Government of co-operation involving Gibraltar undertaken as a of Gibraltar concerning the retention or otherwise of result of Article 9(1) of the Convention on the fight measures implementing the Convention if Gibraltar against corruption involving officials of the European ceases to be bound pursuant to Article 10 of the Protocol Communities or officials of Member States of the on Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties. European Union in the fight against the offences in Courts: Buildings question; whether the Government of Gibraltar has indicated that it intends to maintain this co-operation unchanged if Gibraltar ceases to be bound by the Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Convention pursuant to Article 10 of the Protocol on (1) which court buildings closed since May 2010 have Transitional Provisions annexed to the EU treaties; and been disposed of (a) on the open market and (b) how such co-operation would be maintained; [171686] through an alternative route; [169733] (3) in how many cases the Gibraltarian authorities (2) which court buildings announced for closure have co-operated with the authorities of one or more since May 2010 have been (a) disposed of and (b) not EU member state due to the provisions of Article 9(1) disposed of; [169734] of the Convention on the fight against corruption (3) which organisations have taken over ownership of involving officials of the European Communities or each court building closed but not disposed of on the officials of member states of the European Union in open market since May 2010; [169735] 417W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 418W

(4) how much is spent each month on each court Judges building which has been closed but not disposed of since May 2010; [169738] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (5) which courts announced to be closing since May (1) what proportion of serving judge advocates were 2010 have been disposed of; and how much has been (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and minority generated in capital receipts from their disposal. ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford or the [170518] University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all other universities, Mr Vara: 138 of the 142 courts announced as part of (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s Counsel in the Court Estate Reform Programme (CERP) in December each year since 2003; [172369] 2010 have now closed. The remaining courts scheduled (2) what proportion of serving deputy judge to close are Andover magistrates court, Rhyl county advocates were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian court and Alton magistrates court. Due to changes in and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of workload Bicester magistrates court will no longer close Oxford or the University of Cambridge, (e) educated under the programme. at other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all Due to co-location or combined courts, the 141 courts other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and remaining as part of CERP were/are housed in 95 (i) Queen’s counsel in each year since 2003; [172370] separate properties. (3) what proportion of serving Lord Justices of Appeal were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian The sale of 46 court buildings closed under the Court and minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Estate Reform Programme has generated £ 19.67 million Oxford or the University of Cambridge, (e) educated in capital receipts. The total cumulative gross benefits at other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all are expected from CERP to be £99.2 million over the other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and SR10 period, consisting of resource savings from court (i) Queen’s counsel in each year since 2003; [172371] closures of £60.6 million and gross capital proceeds of £38.6 million from the sale of buildings. (4) what proportion of serving high court judges were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and In addition to the courts announced for closure under minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of the Court Estate Reform Programme the Ministry of Oxford or the University of Cambridge, (e) educated Justice has closed and disposed of a number of court at other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all buildings as a result of the integration and co-location other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and of courts. (i) Queen’s counsel in each year since 2003; [172372] The information requested in relation to court buildings (5) what proportion of serving heads of division which have closed since 2010 is set out in three tables were (a) male, (b) female, (c) black, Asian and and has been placed in the Library of the House. minority ethnic, (d) educated at the University of Oxford or the University of Cambridge, (e) educated at other Russell Group universities, (f) educated at all The Guardian other universities, (g) solicitors, (h) barristers and (i) Queen’s counsel in each year since 2003. [172373] Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much his Department spent on advertising with Mr Vara: Shailesh Vara: The data on the gender, (a) The Guardian newspaper, (b) The Guardian ethnicity and professional background of the judiciary website and (c) The Guardian Media Group in (i) are held and published by the Judicial Office. (Information 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 and (iv) 2012-13. on previous professional background was not published [171157] before 2007.) This data is available at: Mr Vara: The information requested is set out in the For 2013: following table: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview Spend on advertising by year (£ rounded) 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 From 2001 to 2011: http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications-and-reports/ The Guardian newspaper 29,672 2,043 n/a 9,042 statistics/diversity-stats-and-gen-overview/archived-diversity- The Guardian website 20,242 353 3,231.90 9,886 stats and the Guardian Media Group Information on the education or Queen’s counsel status of the judiciary is not published by the Judicial The Ministry’s expenditure on advertising and promotion Office. relates to recruitment, with the majority of recruitment The Ministry of Justice only holds data on appointments activity being within the National Offender Management to Advocate-General and Deputy Judge Advocate-General Service to ensure sufficient prison officers are in post to since 2008, following the commencement of the changes operate effectively the prison system. introduced through the Armed Forces Act 2006. The Guardian outlets are only one of many that are The following tables provide the information on the used for this purpose. For example, the Ministry also diversity of the relevant judicial office holders from uses The Sunday Times. 2003 (where data is held): 419W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 420W

Serving Judge Advocates Number Number Percentage Percentage Former Former Total in Male female female BAME1 BAME2 barristers solicitors post

2013 7 1 12.5 0 0 7 1 8 2012 7 1 12.5 0 0 7 1 8 2011 7 1 12.5 0 0 7 1 8 2010 8 1 11.1 0 0 8 1 9 2009 9 0 0 0 0 9 0 9 2008 9 0 0 0 0 9 0 9 (172369) Serving Deputy Judge Advocates Number Number Percentage Percentage Former Former Total in male female female BAME1 BAME2 barristers solicitors post

2013 4 1 20.2 0 0 5 0 5 2012 4 1 20.0 0 0 5 0 5 2011 4 1 20.0 0 0 5 0 5 2010 4 1 20.0 0 0 5 0 5 2009 11 1 8.3 1 11.1 11 1 12 2008 11 1 8.3 0 0 11 1 12 (172370) Serving Lord Justices of Appeal Number Number Percentage Percentage Former Former Total in male female female BAME1 BAME2 barristers solicitors post

2013 31 4 11.4 0 0 35 0 35 2012 34 4 10.5 0 0 38 0 38 2011 33 4 10.8 0 0 37 0 37 2010 34 3 8.1 0 0 37 0 37 2009 34 3 8.1 0 0 36 1 37 2008 34 3 8.1 0 0 36 1 37 2007 34 3 8.1 0 0 36 1 37 2006 — 3 8.1 0 0 — — 37 2005 — 2 5.4 0 0 — — 37 2004 — 2 5.4 0 0 — — 37 2003 — 3 8.6 0 0 — — 35 (172371) Serving High Court Judges Number Number Percentage Percentage Former Former Total in male female female BAME1 BAME2 barristers solicitors post

2013 90 18 16.7 5 4.6 106 1 108 2012 93 17 15.5 5 4.5 108 1 110 2011 91 17 15.7 4 3.7 107 1 108 2010 92 16 14.8 3 2.8 107 1 108 2009 99 11 10.0 3 2.8 109 1 110 2008 99 11 10.0 3 2.7 109 1 110 2007 98 10 9.3 1 0.9 107 1 108 2006 — 11 10.2 1 0.9 — — 107 2005 — 10 9.3 1 0.9 — — 107 2004 — 8 7.6 0 0 — — 105 2003 — 6 5.7 0 0 — — 106 (172372) Serving Heads of Division Number Number Percentage Percentage Former Former Total in male female female BAME1 BAME2 barristers solicitors post

2013 5 0 0 0 0 5 0 5 2012 5 0 0 0 0 5 0 5 2011 5 0 0 0 0 5 0 5 2010 5 0 0 0 0 5 0 5 2009 5 0 0 0 0 5 0 5 2008 5 0 0 0 0 5 0 5 2007 5 0 0 0 0 5 0 5 2006 — 0 — 0 0 — — 5 2005 — 1 — 0 0 — — 4 2004 — 1 — 0 0 — — 4 421W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 422W

Serving Heads of Division Number Number Percentage Percentage Former Former Total in male female female BAME1 BAME2 barristers solicitors post

2003 — 1 — 0 0 — — 4 (172373) ‘—’ = Denotes not available. 1 The database of the ethnic origin of the judiciary is incomplete as candidates are asked to provide the information on a voluntary basis. 2 The black, Asian and minority ethnic figure has been calculated as a percentage of all members of the judiciary. Note: Due to the small numbers caution should be taken when considering changes in proportions over time.

Offenders: Deportation We are working with the national policing lead and the Crown Prosecution Service to increase the use of conditional cautions with foreign offender conditions Emily Thornberry: To ask the Secretary of State for in appropriate cases. Justice how many conditional cautions have been issued by police forces and prosecutors in England and Prisoners Wales for foreign offenders to facilitate their removal from the UK since 2013; and for what offences each such caution was issued. [168052] Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prisoners have been released on parole after serving the minimum period of their Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply on behalf of indeterminate sentence in prison. [170973] the Home Department. The provisions for issuing conditional cautions to Jeremy Wright: It is for the independent Parole Board facilitate the removal of low-level foreign offenders to determine whether to direct the release of life or other indeterminate sentence prisoners, once they have came into force on 8 April 2013. The figures are as ″ follows: completed their minimum period of imprisonment ( the tariff), as determined by the sentencing court. Such Number prisoners become eligible for release only once they have completed their tariff, which is the minimum period Total 10 — of imprisonment specified by the court for the purposes conditional of retribution and deterrence. In many cases, such prisoners cautions issued will serve longer periods in custody than their tariff, in Of which, 6 Case 1: Seeking leave to remain in some cases considerably longer. successful the United Kingdom by means of removals deception. The Parole Board will direct the release of such Case 2: Fraud. prisoners only if it is satisfied that it is no longer necessary on the grounds of public protection for them Case3:Fraud. to be detained in custody. Case 4: Fraud by false representation. Between 1 January 2006 and 31 March 2013, the Case 5: Possession of a counterfeit latest period for which figures are available, there have ID card with intent to deceive. been 1,026 releases from prison of those serving an Case 6: Fraud by false indeterminate sentence for public protection (IPP) who representation. have served at least their tariff. The number of releases from prison following a life Pending 1 Fraud by false representation. sentence in the same period is 1,322, again who have Removal directions have been set. served at least their tariff. Data on releases are published quarterly in the Ministry Unsuccessful 3 Case 1: Two counts of seeking leave of Justice statistical bulletin Offender Management Statistics to remain in the United Kingdom by Quarterly and may be found at the following web address: means of deception, possession of an identity document with intent to https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ministry-of- deceive, fraud by false representation justice/series/prisons-and-probation-statistics and perverting the course of justice. The average time in years spent in custody for The offender has since been prosecuted, convicted and sentenced indeterminate sentence prisoners (ISPs) once the minimum to six months’ imprisonment. tariff has been served is shown in the following table. Case 2: Possession of a counterfeit identity document. The conditional 2010 2011 2012 Q1 2013 caution was discontinued, but the individual has been administratively IPP 1.9 2.3 2.8 3.2 removed from the United Kingdom. Life 4.4 5.0 5.6 5.0 Case 3: Possession of false All ISP 3.5 3.5 3.9 4.1 instrument. Prosecution proceedings are under way. Data are only available in this format for ISP releases Note: since 2010. These figures have been drawn from All figures quoted have been derived from management information and are therefore provisional and subject to change. This administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale information has not been quality assured under National Statistics recording system, are subject to possible errors with protocols. data entry and processing. 423W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 424W

Mr Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Stephen Hammond: In 2012, the Department provided how many prisoners released in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and funding of £70 million through the Better Bus Area (c) 2012 had spent more than two years in open fund to 24 local authorities. Since 2009, through four conditions. [172640] rounds of the Green Bus Fund, the Department has provided £88 million of funding to bus operators and Jeremy Wright: To provide figures over this time local authorities. The Local Sustainable Transport Fund period of the number of prisoners who had spent more will see funding of £600 million provided to local authorities than two years in open conditions prior to release from 2011 to 2015. would involve the manual interrogation of around 15,000 records which could be achieved only at disproportionate First TransPennine Express cost. Probation Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps his Department is taking to Sarah Champion: To ask the Secretary of State for ensure that new (a) Class 68 diesels and (b) Class 88 Justice who his Department consulted about the bi-mode locomotives are able to couple and operate supervision of female offenders and males convicted of with the planned electric rolling stock for use on the domestic abuse in respect of Transforming North West Trans Pennine routes. [172494] Rehabilitation; and if he will publish the responses from those consultees. [172291] Stephen Hammond: Operational issues are a matter for the train operating companies to manage. It is their Jeremy Wright: We received almost 600 formal responses role to deliver their services within the scope and obligations to the consultation “Transforming Rehabilitation: a set out in the Franchise Agreement. revolution in the way we manage offenders” and held 14 consultation events which were attended by over 800 John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for stakeholders. We published a summary of the written Transport when he expects to consult on the terms of responses in May. the contract to operate Trans Pennine rail services The responses we received were wide ranging and between April 2015 and February 2016; and what form were fed into the policy design process. We know that that consultation will take. [172970] domestic violence has the highest rate of repeat victimisation and it is therefore vital that perpetrators of domestic Stephen Hammond: In September 2013, the Department violence are identified and their risk reduced through for Transport began a project to deliver a new franchise appropriate interventions. Under our reforms providers by direct award, in order to continue operations on the of rehabilitation services will be focused on what works TransPennine Express (TPE) franchise between the end to reduce reoffending, including working with offenders of the current franchise in April 2015 and the start of to tackle domestic violence issues and consequently the next competed franchise in February 2016. reduce the number of victims. Department officials are in regular discussions with Sexual Offences key stakeholders, including the incumbent franchisee, in developing the terms of the agreement. Further Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions will take place as the franchising project Justice what steps he is taking to improve the progresses. conviction rates in cases of alleged rape and sexual High Speed 2 Railway Line violence. [169716] The Attorney-General: I have been asked to reply. Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for In 2012-13, the conviction rate for rape rose to 63.2%, Transport if he will direct HS2 Ltd to commission a and that for sexual offences (excluding rape) to 76.8%: study on the potential economic effects on Warrington in both cases, the highest recorded conviction rate. of (a) that town not having a station on the High Speed 2 line and (b) a reduction in the number of Improving the conviction rate for such prosecutions direct trains to London and Scotland from Warrington continues to be a priority for the Crown Prosecution Bank Quay. [172624] Service (CPS) and the Director of Public Prosecutions is committed to building effective cases and supporting Mr Goodwill [holding answer 28 October 2013]: HS2 victims. Ltd has recently published an initial study analysing the The work of the CPS on sexual offences feeds into regional economic impacts of HS2 and associated use the cross-Government strategy on violence against women of the classic rail network infrastructure. This includes and girls (VAWG). This is overseen by a VAWG inter- an estimate that the productivity benefits to the North ministerial group chaired by the Home Secretary, which West region could be between £1.1 billion and £2.5 I regularly attend. billion in 2037. HS2 Ltd will continue to develop analysis in this area. The indicative train timetable in this modelling shows TRANSPORT that Warrington Bank Quay would be served by high Bus Services speed classic-compatible trains in both phase one and phase two of HS2. One of the key principles that will Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for guide future service patterns is that all towns or cities Transport what funding his Department provides to which currently have a direct service to London will the (a) Better Bus Area Fund, (b) Green Bus Fund retain broadly comparable or better services once HS2 and (c) Local Sustainable Transport Fund. [172845] is completed. 425W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 426W

Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for In 2013-14, 25% of staff below the senior civil service Transport pursuant to the answer of 22 October 2013, were eligible for a bonus ranging between £540 to Official Report, column 120W, on High Speed 2, if he £2,700 and 25% of staff in the senior civil service were will publish (a) the case for strategic rail alternatives to eligible for a bonus ranging between £10,000 to £15,000. High Speed 2 commissioned from WS Atkins, (b) the The total value of the bonuses paid was £1,158,538. Professional Services Commercial analysis WP7 The same proportions would apply to staff engaged commissioined from PwC, (c) the professional on HS2 issues as to the rest of the Department. Services Regional Economic Analysis commissioned In 2011-12 HS2 Ltd paid bonuses of £1,000 or less to from KPMG LLP and (d) the professional services full four people and a bonus of £14,000 to one person. audit of HS2 Ltd modelling from Sinclair Knight Merz (Europe) Ltd (SKM). [172917] In 2012-13 HS2 Ltd paid a bonus to one person in the range £15,000 to £20,000 for performance in the year Mr Goodwill: The information is as follows: ending March 2012. (a) The Atkins report on Strategic Rail Alternatives to HS2 is Criteria used were business delivery objectives, published today by the Department and a copy has been placed in development of capability and contribution to corporate the House Library. objectives. (b) HS2 Ltd will consider publication of the Commercial HS2 Ltd no longer operates a bonus scheme for Analysis WP7 by PwC once the work is complete. employees. (c) The KPMG report on HS2 Regional Economic Impacts was published on 1 September 2013. Liverpool Airport (d) The audit of the Planet Framework Model carried out by SKM is published today by HS2 Ltd. Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will make an assessment of the effect of Transport if he will list the parliamentary constituencies Liverpool John Lennon Airport on the (a) North West which the KPMG report on the economic impact of and (b) British economy. [172736] High Speed 2 indicated would be negatively affected. [172925] Mr Goodwill: The Government’s Aviation Policy Framework recognises the important role of airports Mr Goodwill: The analysis in the KPMG report on across the UK in providing air connectivity and their regional economic impacts is based on transport zones vital contribution to regional economic growth. We rather than parliamentary constituencies and the results support making best use of airports such as Liverpool cannot be presented on the basis of the latter. The John Lennon, subject to the appropriate management report estimates that HS2 would deliver a £15 billion of local environmental impacts. The independent Airports annual boost to economic output from 2037. Commission’s remit requires it to maintain a UK-wide perspective in proposing how the UK should maintain High Speed Two its position as Europe’s most important aviation hub. The Government’s “UK Aviation Forecasts”, published in January 2013, predict that passenger numbers at the Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for airport will increase from 4.5 million in 2012 by 18% to Transport how many people retained by HS2 Ltd on 5.3 million passenger per annum by 2020 (and a further personal service contracts have been found not to have 26% to 6.7 million in 2030). been compliant with their tax and National Insurance obligations until contacted by the Department’s representive looking into this aspect of their Railways: Scotland employment. [172915] Mr Darling: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Goodwill: There were none. Transport (1) what the punctuality targets are for trains between (a) Edinburgh Waverley and London King’s Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Cross and (b) Glasgow Central and London Euston; Transport which people engaged by (a) HS2 Ltd and and what proportion of those targets are currently (b) his Department with responsibility for the High being met; [172769] Speed 2 project have (a) received bonuses or (b) been (2) what plans he has to (a) amend the current contracted with promises of bonus payments; what the punctuality targets for trains between (i) Edinburgh value of each such bonus payments was; and what Waverley and London King’s Cross and (ii) Glasgow performance indicators were attached to such bonuses. Central and London Euston and (b) announce any [172919] such amendment. [172770]

Mr Goodwill: Within the Department, the performance Stephen Hammond: The Department does not set arrangements provide for bonuses in respect of staff such targets for specific routes. achieving certain levels of performance measured against The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) sets regulated individual achievement of objectives. outputs which are the minimum level of performance In 2011-12 and 2012-13, 95% of staff below the specified as obligations for Network Rail to achieve, senior civil service were eligible for a bonus ranging and these are set by sector. Network Rail are required between £380 to £1,800 and 25% of staff in the senior by ORR’s final determinations to deliver improvements civil service were eligible for a bonus ranging between in the public performance measure (PPM) for punctuality £7,000 to £12,500. The total value of the bonuses paid at both a national and sector level. The targets for in the two years across the Department was £3,033,937. period 2009-14 for the long distance sector were: 427W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 428W

Public performance measure The Department is in the process of developing the (Percentage annual average) detailed scope of this study, and through a process of engagement with stakeholders is aiming to finalise the 2009/10 88.6 timing, aims and scope of the A303 study by the end of 2010/11 89.4 2013. 2011/12 90.9 2012/13 91.5 Tankers 2013/14 92 The Office of Rail Regulation is expected to publish Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for shortly its decision on targets for the next period, 2014-19. Transport pursuant to the statement of 24 October 2013 on Haulage, Road Tank Vehicle Compliance, Railways: Standards which model of fuel tanker the statement refers to; for what reason they are not in full compliance with the Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for European Agreement Concerning the International Transport what the current punctuality targets are for Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road; what franchises on the (a) West Coast mainline and (b) assessment he has made of the risk posed by such East Coast mainline; and what he plans such targets to non-compliance to other road users; and what assessment he has made of vehicle inspection services be in the next control period. [172896] by Bureau Veritas. [172968] Stephen Hammond: The Department does not currently set performance targets for franchised rail operators, Mr Goodwill: The non-compliant road tank vehicles although it is currently considering introducing such were manufactured by GRW Engineering (Pty) Ltd targets for future franchises, which would be intended based in South Africa. The quality of the welding and to align as closely as possible with the regulatory the hatches on top of the tank fall short of the required performance targets set by the Office of Rail Regulation standards and the bottom off-take nozzles need to be for Network Rail. re-fitted. The nature of these problems means that in day-to-day use, these tankers present a low risk as The Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) sets regulated evidenced by many years of safe operation. The defects outputs which are the minimum level of performance have been assessed to determine whether the tankers specified as obligations for Network Rail to achieve, could withstand a roll-over incident. Our preliminary and these are set by sector. Network Rail are required finding is that they may be more likely to rupture than a by ORR’s final determinations to deliver improvements fully compliant tanker. However, even a compliant tanker in the public performance measure (PPM) for punctuality will not be able to withstand a severe accident. These at both a national and sector level. The targets for vehicles have been on the road for up to seven years period 2009-14 for the long distance sector were: without incident and they would not be allowed to Public performance measure continue in service if they presented an immediate risk. (Percentage annual average) The tanks were inspected and certified by Bureau 2009/10 88.6 Veritas (South Africa), a body that the UK competent authority has never appointed to undertake those functions. 2010/11 89.4 Bureau Veritas (UK)’s appointment has been severely 2011/12 90.9 restricted in scope but has not been withdrawn so that it 2012/13 91.5 can assist with the re-certification of the GRW 2013/14 92 manufactured road tank vehicles and service the needs of its existing customers. Its appointment is kept under Roads: South West review.

Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what assessment he had made of the effects of improving the A303/A30/A358 corridor to ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE improve the severe weather resilience of the transport network in the South West; [172302] Energy (2) what assessment his Department has made of the economic benefit to the South West of improving the Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for A303/A30/A358 corridor. [172303] Energy and Climate Change how much his Department spent on (a) gas and (b) electricity in (i) 2010-11 and Mr Goodwill: The Department has not undertaken a (ii) 2011-12. [172777] specific recent assessment of the effects of improving the A303/A30/A358 corridor to improve the severe weather Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and resilience of the transport network in the south-west, or Climate Change incurred the following costs in respect the economic benefit to the south-west of improving of gas and electricity in 2010-11 and 2011-12. the corridor. The Department is undertaking six feasibility studies £ as part of the process of identifying and funding solutions 2010/11 2011/12 to tackle some of the most notorious and long-standing Electricity 203,723 165,782 road hot spots in the country, one of which is focused Gas 19,122 16,700 on the A303/A30/A358 corridor. 429W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 430W

Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Energy and Climate Change which company supplied Month (a) gas and (b) electricity to his Department in (i) 2010-11 and year Electricity Transfers Gas Transfers and (ii) 2011-12. [172781] June 2009 434,000 332,000 Gregory Barker: The gas and electricity suppliers to July 2009 442,000 327,000 the Department of Energy and Climate Change were as August 2009 388,000 304,000 follows: September 480,000 343,000 2009 2010/11 2011/12 October 2009 455,000 336,000 November 441,000 330,000 Gas Total Gas and Total Gas and 2009 Power Power December 438,000 332,000 Electricity Scottish Hydro Scottish Hydro 2009 Electric Electric January 2010 259,000 307,000 This Department also occupies space in a building in February 353,000 217,000 2010 Aberdeen (leased through the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—BIS). The suppliers for both March 2010 460,000 316,000 specified years in this building were: April 2010 379,000 307,000 May 2010 352,000 271,000 Electricity—EDF Energy June 2010 413,000 289,000 Gas—Corona. July 2010 398,000 292,000 August 2010 419,000 296,000 Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy September 426,000 305,000 and Climate Change what costs were incurred by his 2010 Department’s estate in respect of (a) gas and (b) electricity October 2010 409,000 305,000 supply in the 2012-13 financial year. [172792] November 456,000 322,000 2010 Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and December 425,000 328,000 Climate Change incurred the following costs in the year 2010 2012-13: January 2011 270,000 279,000 February 324,000 211,000 £ 2011 March 2011 400,000 307,000 Electricity 203,137.00 April 2011 360,000 246,000 Gas 22,654.00 May 2011 356,000 308,000 June 2011 393,000 259,000 John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for July 2011 397,000 301,000 Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made August 2011 449,000 343,000 of the number of people who have switched energy September 343,000 309,000 supplier in (a) Glasgow North West constituency, 2011 (b) Glasgow, (c) Scotland and (d) the UK in each of October 2011 326,000 247,000 the last 60 months. [172853] November 329,000 240,000 2011 Michael Fallon: Data are only available for Great December 259,000 219,000 Britain. The following table shows the number of transfers 2011 between suppliers over the last 60 months of available January 2012 210,000 194,000 data for Great Britain. February 257,000 149,000 2012 Number March 2012 279,000 190,000 Month April 2012 232,000 176,000 and year Electricity Transfers Gas Transfers May 2012 286,000 202,000 June 2012 272,000 192,000 July 2008 474,000 361,000 July 2012 257,000 190,000 August 2008 553,000 348,000 August 2012 265,000 187,000 September 466,000 427,000 2008 September 312,000 195,000 October 2008 478,000 347,000 2012 November 428,000 336,000 October 2012 366,000 273,000 2008 November 338,000 174,000 December 439,000 332,000 2012 2008 December 266,000 159,000 January 2009 290,000 331,000 2012 February 364,000 255,000 January 2013 222,000 158,000 2009 February 241,000 118,000 March 2009 475,000 311,000 2013 April 2009 423,000 298,000 March 2013 238,000 144,000 May 2009 397,000 324,000 April 2013 242,000 187,000 431W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 432W

C in order to permit them access to the £10 billion loan Number guarantee provided in support of the project by HM Month and year Electricity Transfers Gas Transfers Treasury. [172353]

May 2013 222,000 155,000 Nicky Morgan: I have been asked to reply on behalf June 2013 193,000 148,000 of the Treasury. As is normal practice in project financing, non-disclosure These numbers refer to the total number of switches, agreements have been signed ahead of commercial rather than the number of consumers who have switched discussions with potential investors in Hinkley Point C. (i.e. they may include some customers who have switched A guarantee has not been approved and a security more than once). They do not include switches to a package has not been agreed. At this early stage of different tariff with the same supplier. For gas the discussion with investors it cannot be said what will be figures only include the Big 6 energy suppliers, while for published however the Government will disclose electricity, the figures include all energy suppliers. information within the bounds of the confidentiality These data are published in table 2.7.1 of DECC’s agreement. Quarterly Energy Prices Publication. The source data are provided by Ofgem, and are based on meter-point data. EDUCATION Academies Energy: Meters Mr Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment he has made of the level of Energy and Climate Change what proportion of the subscription for places in academies in the most recent smart meters currently installed in UK homes were admissions round. [172452] manufactured in the UK. [172716] Mr Timpson: The annual admissions round is Gregory Barker: The Government does not maintain co-ordinated by local authorities. The Department does records of the country of manufacture for smart meters not collect information on the level of oversubscription installed in homes in the UK. Nevertheless, while many at individual schools, but does collect preference data at of the components for smart meters are likely to be local authority level. These tell us how many parents manufactured overseas, we expect factories in the UK received an offer of a place at one of the schools for to receive substantial new orders to do the final assembly which they expressed a preference. From 2014 we will be and technical configuration for many millions of smart collecting preference data at pupil level and we will then meters needed for the roll-out of smart meters in Great be able to look at individual schools and academies. Britain. To this end, the Government welcomed the announcement in September that manufacturer Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Landis+Gyr expects to double its 600-strong UK workforce Education how many Academy chains have had following a £600 million deal with British Gas to supply restrictions placed on them by his Department to date. smart meters. [172456] Fuel Oil: Prices Mr Timpson: Since January 2013, a total of 25 academy chains have agreed to pause and restrict their growth Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for and further expansion. Any plans they produce for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of future growth and expansion will be assessed by the 22 October 2013, Official Report, column 149W, on Department and reviewed on an ongoing basis. This snow and ice, what assessment he has made of the will allow them to concentrate on improving performance success of the Buy Oil Early campaign. [172802] at their existing schools. Where academies are underperforming we will use Michael Fallon: It is too early at this point to measure our statutory powers, such as Pre-Warning Notices and the success of the campaign. DECC will be monitoring Warning Notices. For the worst performing sponsors the impact through the statistics for inland deliveries of we have immediately paused their growth and intervened kerosene and average temperature which we gather and at board level. We are also implementing a number of monitor throughout the year (with a two-month lag). steps to bring about improvement, such as helping them The statistics are available from: to build board-level capability and identifying people https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ with relevant skills and experience to join boards. attachment_data/file/244816/et3_13.xls As well as looking at annual performance results we https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ also undertake regular assessments of sponsors’ capacity attachment_data/file/244827/et7_1.xls to ensure growth is sensible and well-managed. This will In addition the Federation of Petroleum Supplies allow us to identify where sponsors are at risk of being have asked a cross-section of their members to canvass overstretched. customer calls and report on a regional basis what percentage of orders have been influenced by the campaign. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of the number of Hinkley Point C Power Station academy trusts that are in a position to take on new academies. [172689] Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will publish in full the Mr Timpson: As of 25 October 2013, 491 approved security package provided by the investors in Hinkley academy trusts are in a position to take on new academies. 433W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 434W

However, we are currently reviewing the capacity of all Elizabeth Truss: Departmental officials have regular sponsors based on analysis of their performance and discussions with publishers’ and suppliers’ representatives, 2013 exam results and each week we approve and add namely the Education Publishers Council (EPC), a more academy trusts to our pool of approved sponsors. division of the Publishers’ Association, and the British Educational Suppliers Association (BESA). These Academies: Yorkshire and the Humber discussions have focused on what the sector is doing to make sure that high-quality teaching materials are available Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for to schools to support the new national curriculum. We Education what proportion of children in (a) have also facilitated a series of ’expert subject groups’, Huddersfield and (b) Yorkshire attend an academy comprising members of teaching schools, subject school. [172673] associations and Higher Education Institutions. They have been looking at the challenges posed, the materials Mr Timpson: The January 2013 school census showed currently available to support teachers, and gaps in that 10% of children in state-funded mainstream schools materials. These groups have started to produce their in Huddersfield constituency were attending an academy. own guidance for schools as they prepare to deliver the There have been no subsequent academy openings in new curriculum. We have also made the link between the constituency to date, so the current figure is likely to the EPC/BESA and these expert groups, so that they be similar. can help the publishers to target gaps in the market. The January 2013 school census showed that 22% of children in state-funded mainstream schools in Yorkshire Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for and the Humber were attending an academy.99 mainstream Education pursuant to the answer of 2 September academies have opened in the Yorkshire and the Humber 2013, Official Report, column 69W, on the curriculum, region since then. Taking this into account, it is estimated when his Department will have formulated a that 28% of children in state-funded mainstream schools communications plan for ensuring that schools are in the region are currently attending an academy. aware of the changes to the National Curriculum; and if he will make a statement. [172788] Curriculum Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education has a communications plan in place for the reform of the Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for national curriculum. Following its publication, we published Education pursuant to the answer of 2 September a simple and comprehensive guide that has already been Official Report, 2013, column 69W, on the curriculum, viewed over 8,000 times. We are also making information whether any new sources of funding will be provided to and support available for teachers to help implement assist schools in providing training for teachers; and if the new national curriculum and will continue to do so he will make a statement. [172786] for the next year, and beyond. For example, we have a series of podcasts in which experts explain to teachers Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education the resources available and how they can help. This can recognises that the high expectations set by the new all be viewed on our TES page.1 national curriculum will present challenges for some 1 schools. To assist them, existing opportunities funded Note: by Government in core subjects are being adapted to http://community.tes.co.uk/national_curriculum_2014/b/ reflect the requirements of the new curriculum. For national_curriculum_2014/default.aspx example, the National Centre for Excellence in the We are speaking directly to headteachers and teachers Teaching of Mathematics (NCETM) has a range of at conferences around the country to share the support support for schools. The match funding scheme of available and hear from them what they need. £3,000 for phonics materials and training has been extended until October 2013. We have made £2 million Education Endowment Foundation available to recruit 400 master teachers in computer science over the next two years. We also announced a Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for further £2 million to support teaching schools to take Education pursuant to the answer of 15 October 2013, forward the delivery of the new curriculum in their Official Report, column 696W, on Education alliances, and in March we announced £150 million per Endowment Foundation, what information his year of ring-fenced funding for primary school sport. Department holds on meetings between Ministers of his Department and EEF since May 2010. [172826] Beyond this, we will not be rolling out a national support programme for all schools, as the Government Mr Laws: Pursuant to the answer of 24 October believes that schools are best placed to decide which 2013, Official Report, column 236W, the Department professional development meets their needs. holds ministerial briefing papers for these meetings.

Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Free Schools: Bedfordshire Education pursuant to the answer of 2 September 2013, Official Report, column 69W, on the curriculum, Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for what discussions he has had with subject experts, Education what public funds were received by the publishers and school suppliers to identify what Barnfield Federation to handle the free school support for schools is already in place and what is still application for the former Fernwood Pre-Prep School needed to fulfil the requirements of the new National in Bedfordshire. [172765] Curriculum; which organisations or individuals his Department is working with in this area; and if he will Mr Timpson: The free school trust received the usual make a statement. [172787] fixed-rate project development grant of £25,000. 435W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 436W

Higher Education: Admissions Private Education Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for for Education what recent steps he has taken to ensure Education what training Independent Schools that students previously in state education are Inspectorate inspectors received on safeguarding and encouraged to apply to top universities. [172438] the protection of children in relation to practice in independent schools. [172836] Matthew Hancock: The Government is determined that anyone with the ambition and ability should be Mr Laws: This is a matter for the Independent Schools encouraged to aim high to achieve the best grades Inspectorate (ISI), which is responsible for the training possible and apply to top universities,, regardless of of its own inspectors. The inspection regime operated their educational background. by ISI is monitored by Ofsted, which produces annual quality assurance reports on the quality of ISI’s inspections, Data published by UCAS show the proportion of including comment on the adequacy of training. 18 -year-olds from the most disadvantaged backgrounds applying to university for entry in the 2013-14 academic Schools year has increased to the highest level ever recorded. The application rate of 18-year-olds from the most Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for disadvantaged areas in England has increased to 19.8% in Education what research his Department has 2013. undertaken or assessed of the value to children and young people of attending an all-through school. The Department for Education’s Future Scholar Awards [172672] programme encourages higher aspirations by rewarding high performing year 9 pupils in state-funded schools Mr Laws: There is currently no robust research available with a visit to a Russell Group university. which compares the experiences and outcomes for pupils Schools and colleges have an important role to play attending an all-through school with pupils attending in encouraging their students to aim high. The key stage the more traditional primary and secondary school 5 Destination Measure provides data on the destinations model. of students the year after taking A level or other level 3 Schools: Yorkshire and the Humber qualifications, including higher education. These data are broken down by different types of higher education Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for institution and enable users to assess the success of Education how many schools in Yorkshire are all- schools and colleges in supporting their students to through schools serving both primary and secondary progress to university study at the highest level. school-age children. [172670]

History: GCSE Mr Laws: There are nine state-funded all-through schools in the Yorkshire and Humber region,1 of which Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for four are academies, two are free schools and three are Education in how many mainstream secondary schools local authority maintained schools. no pupil obtained grade C or above at history GCSE in 1 As of October 2013. 2013; and how many mainstream secondary schools did not enter any pupils for a history GCSE in 2013. [172462] HEALTH Mr Laws: Data for the 2012-13 academic year will be Additives published in the Performance Tables in January 2014. Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Data for 2011-12 can be downloaded from the Department’s Health if he will bring forward proposals to ban the use website1. of colouring additives, such as sunset yellow, caroisine 2 Of the 3,165 mainstream secondary schools, 47 schools and quinoline yellow, in children’s medicine; and if he had no pupils achieving a grade C or above in GCSE will make a statement. [172631] history or ancient history in 2011-12. Of those 47 mainstream secondary schools, in 40 schools no pupils Norman Lamb: European medicines legislation permits entered GCSE history or ancient history in 2011-12. medicines to contain colours that are authorised for use Please see following table for comparison data2: in food. The European Food Safety Authority is re-evaluating authorised food additives and any change Total no. of in the list of permitted additives will apply to medicines. mainstream Existing European guidance on the use of colours in secondary Total no. of medicines states that synthetic colouring agents should schools where no mainstream Total no. of pupils achieved a secondary not be used in medicines for paediatric use when only mainstream grade C or above schools with no intended for aesthetic purposes. Although the amount secondary in GCSE pupils entered in of colouring agents used in medicines is small in comparison Academic year schools History GCSE History with foods, the Medicines and Healthcare products 2009-10 3,058 70 70 Regulatory Agency, which is responsible for the 2010-11 3,038 113 70 authorisation of medicines for the United Kingdom 2011-12 3,165 47 40 market, strongly encourages companies to avoid the 1 http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/download_ addition of colouring agents in paediatric medicines. data.html This approach is supported by new European guidance 2 Mainstream schools included in Performance Tables only. This on paediatric medicines coming into force on 15 February includes academies, free schools and city technology colleges. 2014 which also makes clear that use of any colouring Schools with suppressed results are excluded from these figures. agent must be justified. 437W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 438W

The new European guidance1 has been placed in the (2) what proportion of psychiatric in-patient beds Library. were occupied by people sectioned under the Mental 1 Guideline on pharmaceutical development of medicines for Health Act 1983 in each of the last three years. paediatric use [172401] (EMA/CHMP/QWP/805880/2012 Rev. 2) www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/ Scientific_guideline/2013/07/WC500147002.pdf Norman Lamb: The information requested, in so far as is relates to England, is set out in the following table: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Birmingham Total number of patients subject to the Mental Health Act 1983 detained in hospital on 31 March, by strategic health authority (SHA, from 2007-08 to John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 Health how much his Department spends through Number Birmingham and Solihull Mental Health NHS SHA 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Foundation Trust on the detection and treatment of North East 994 843 826 1,103 1,176 Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ME; and what proportion North West 2,326 2,320 2,629 2,539 2,652 of such funding is spent in each parliamentary Yorkshire and 1,052 997 1,216 1,143 1,268 constituency in Birmingham. [172500] the Humber East 1,242 1,753 1,728 1,723 1,885 Norman Lamb: The information requested is not held Midlands centrally. Clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) West 1,282 1,235 1,342 1,284 1,454 commission services for chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic Midlands East of 1,151 1,385 1,363 1,391 1,490 encephalopathy. England The information may be available from the National London 3,457 3,569 3,528 3,588 3,639 Health Service Birmingham South Central CCG. South East 695 795 856 847 905 Coast Compulsorily Detained Mental Patients South Central 893 817 897 952 952 South West 960 943 940 895 991 Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) Null1 1,129 1,416 1,297 1,182 1,091 how many patients in (a) each English region, (b) Wales and (c) each mental health trust area in London Total 15,181 16,073 16,622 16,647 17,503 were subject to a section under the Mental Health 1 Data from those trusts which could not be mapped to a strategic health Act 1983 in each of the last five years; [172400] authority.

Total number of patients subject to the Mental Health Act 1983 detained in hospital in each mental health trust area in London, in each of the last five years Number 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Enfield Primary Care Trust (PCT) 1— 1— 1—70 Haringey PCT 1—0000 Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust 0 0 0 0 1— North Middlesex Hospital University NHS Trust 0 0 0 0 1— North East London NHS Foundation Trust 144 122 100 121 132 Kingston Hospital NHS Trust 1—0000 Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust 1—0000 King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 0 23 0 0 0 The Whittington Hospital NHS Trust 1—0001— West London Mental Health NHS Trust 661 645 632 666 618 Barts and The London NHS Trust 0 0 1— 1— 1— Oxleas NHS Foundation Trust 406 278 269 233 241 Chelsea and Westminster Hospital NHS Foundation Trust 0 1—001— South West London and St George’s Mental Health NHS Trust 308 418 496 235 263 Barnet, Enfield and Haringey Mental Health NHS Trust 332 336 322 297 315 University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 1— 1— 1—020 Central and North West London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust 350 386 435 716 801 South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust 392 369 358 428 382 East London NHS Foundation Trust 399 399 476 430 420 Camden and Islington NHS Foundation Trust 170 1— 174 161 132 Independent hospitals 286 1— 264 1— 306

Total 3,457 3,569 3,528 3,588 3,639 1 In order to prevent disclosure, where the figure is five or lower, all values for that provider in that year have been suppressed. Notes: 1. The HSCIC does not collect information about the Mental Health Act 1983 in Wales. 2. The HSCIC does not collect information about the number of psychiatric in-patient beds that were occupied by people sectioned under the Mental Health Act 1983. Source: KP 90, Health and Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC). 439W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 440W

Dementia substitution therapy receive their treatment by (a) supervised consumption, (b) daily pick-up and (c) Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for weekly pick-up regimes. [172898] Health when his Department’s dementia toolkit will be published. [172589] Jane Ellison: These data are not collected centrally, and we are not aware if and where they are collected. Norman Lamb: The Department has commissioned the Royal College of General Practitioners (GPs) to Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health develop a Dementia Roadmap Toolkit which will provide how many drug treatment clients who are prescribed a ’one stop’ navigational aid for GPs which describes opioid substitution therapy also have parental what GPs should do at different points during a person’s responsibility. [172900] journey through dementia and provides a single point Jane Ellison: In 2011-12, 60,596 adults in drug treatment of information which sets out what wider support, in England were recorded as having parental responsibilities, services are available for people with dementia, their an opiate problem and were receiving a prescribing families and carers. intervention as part of their treatment programme. This The Dementia Toolkit is expected to be published in figure includes parents living with own children and May 2014. those who are not living with their children. There were Dental Services 5,193 who were recorded as having an opiate problem and who were receiving a prescribing intervention but Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for for whom their parental status was not recorded. Health how many people in (a) Ribble Valley Health Visitors constituency, (b) Lancashire and (c) the UK have been registered with NHS dentists in each of the last Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for five years. [172844] Health what assessment he has made of progress to date towards the Coalition Agreement Commitment in Jane Ellison: This data is not held in the format the provision of 4,200 more health visitors. [172920] requested. Under the existing dental contract, patients do not Jane Ellison: The latest figures (July 2013)1 show that register to receive national health service dental care. 1,011 of the additional 4,200 extra full-time equivalent The Government intends to replace the existing contract (FTE) health visitors required by April 2015 are in with one based on registration, capitation and quality. posts. In total there are 9,103 FTE in post in England. Access to dentistry is measured through the number This is two FTE health visitors below the indicative of patients seen by an NHS dentist over a 24-month work force trajectory, therefore representing good progress period. towards meeting the Coalition’s commitment. The next Information at England and NHS England area team significant increase in the workforce is expected in the level is published quarterly by the Health and Social next few months as health visiting students complete Care Information Centre. Information is not collated at training and move into the work force. constituency or county level. A progress report on the Health Visitor Programme is due to be published in November 2013 on the The latest data covers the period ending 17 September Department’s website. 2013 and shows that at England level access to NHS dental services has increased by over 1.3 million since Published as the health visitor minimum data set May 2010. 22 October 2013 by the Health and Social Care Information Centre. Donors: Health Education Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what steps he is taking to encourage NHS trusts what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State to employ more health visitors. [172921] for Education on the issue of organ donation and transplantation. [172297] Jane Ellison: NHS England is responsible for delivering the 4,200 increase in the health visitor work force as Jane Ellison: There have been no specific discussions part of its section 7A agreement with the Secretary of between the Secretary of State for Health and Secretary State for Health. of State for Education on the issue of organ donation Each NHS England area team has agreed a trajectory and transplantation. to deliver its share of the extra 4,200 health visitors by NHS Blood and Transplant’s organ donation strategy April 201. Area teams closely performance manage Taking Organ Transplantation to 2020 published in their local providers in the delivery of their contracted July 2013 highlights the need to improve consent rates. trajectory agreed through the national service specification Implementation plans are being finalised, including and accompanying reporting mechanisms. Area teams information for teachers and educating school age children use a range of mechanisms, including contractual levers, about organ donation and transplantation. to ensure that the health visitor vacancies they are funding in their providers are filled promptly. Monthly Drugs: Rehabilitation progress figures, published in the health visitor minimum data set, are used by NHS England to make key lines of Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health inquiry, requiring any area team failing to meet its what proportion of drug treatment clients with trajectory to detail the actions being taken to ensure parental responsibility who are prescribed opioid that delivery is brought back on course. 441W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 442W

Hospitals: Waiting Lists Maternity Services

Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many NHS patients in (a) Coventry, (b) Health what assessment he has made of regional the West Midlands and (c) England waited longer variations in standards of post-natal care; and what than 18 weeks for treatment in (i) 2011-12, (ii) 2012-13 steps he is taking to ensure consistently high levels of and (iii) the latest period for which figures are available. care. [172922] [172730] Jane Ellison: The information requested is shown in Norman Lamb: It is for the national health service to the following tables: review the provision of postnatal care locally and enhance services where appropriate. To assist in the commissioning Table 1: Admitted patients who started treatment requiring an admission to and provision of consistent care, the Department asked hospital who waited longer than 18 weeks the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence April 2013 to 2011-12 2012-13 August 20131 to develop quality standards on postnatal care which were published in July 2013. Coventry2 2,066 1,249 1,093 We have made improving women and their families’ West 35,429 27,895 13,014 Midlands3 experience of maternity services an area of improvement England 331,932 271,662 123,359 for the NHS. From 1 October 2013 every woman is able to give feedback on the quality of the maternity care Table 2: Non-admitted patients who started treatment that did not require they receive through the Friends and Family Test. In admission who waited longer than 18 weeks addition, the Care Quality Commission (CQC) is April 2013 to 2011-12 2012-13 August 20131 conducting a survey of women’s experience of maternity services, including postnatal care. Maternity service Coventry2 1,787 1,070 643 providers and clinical commissioning groups will wish West 30,210 24,386 9,650 to use the results from the Friends and Family Test and Midlands3 the CQC survey to identify areas where further action is England 279,319 250,975 113,293 needed to improve services. 1 The latest available Referral to Treatment data are for August 2013. 2 For 2011-12 and 2012-13 this reflects the number of patients where Coventry Helping commissioners to reduce unwarranted variation Teaching Primary Care Trust was the responsible commissioner. For 2013-14 in service delivery is one of the key roles of Maternity this represents the number of patients in NHS Coventry and Rugby Clinical Commissioning Group and therefore is not directly comparable. and Children Strategic Clinical Networks, which are 3 For 2011-12 and 2012-13 this reflects the numbers of patients in West being established and supported by NHS England. Midlands Strategic Health Authority. For 2013-14 this represents the number of patients in Birmingham and the Black Country Area Team; Shropshire and Mental Health Services Staffordshire Area Team; and Arden, Herefordshire and Worcestershire Area Team and therefore is not directly comparable. Note: Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Data are collected monthly. Source. Health how many people have had to wait more than Monthly Referral to Treatment data, NHS England: (a) 28 days, (b) six months and (c) one year for www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/rtt-waiting-times/ treatment under the Improving Access to Psychological Kernicterus Therapies programme in the last five years. [172907]

Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: We do not collect the data in the Health how many incidents of kernicterus have been format requested. However, what data we do collect on reported to NHS England in each NHS acute hospital waiting times for Improving Access to Psychological trust in England in each of the last five years. [172345] Therapy (IAPT) Services are provided in the following table: Norman Lamb: Because of the small numbers involved Number of patients waiting for improving access to psychological therapies for it is not possible to give the data for individual trusts 28 days or more: Quarter 3 2008-09—Quarter 1 2013-14 without the risk of identifying individual cases. The Quarter Number table gives the number of finished consultant episodes 2008-09 Q3 9,650 (FCE) in England where the primary, or secondary Q4 12,458 diagnosis was Kernicterus. 2009-10 Q1 13,671 Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in Q2 15,040 the independent sector Number Q3 60,525 Finished consultant episodes Q4 66,429

2007-08 38 2010-11 Ql 71,938 2008-09 32 Q2 67,089 2009-10 34 Q3 67,903 2010-11 43 Q4 69,373 2011-12 40 2011-12 Q1 88,693 Note: Q2 79,579 A finished consultant episode (FCE) is a continuous period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are counted Q3 83,184 against the year in which they end. Figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more than one episode of care within Q4 96,530 the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. 2012-13 Q1 119,534 Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre. Q2 112,307 443W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 444W

Number of patients waiting for improving access to psychological therapies for 28 days or more: Quarter 3 2008-09—Quarter 1 2013-14 Purchase of secondary health care: mental illness (£000) Quarter Number 2008-09 7,824,071 Q3 112,785 2009-10 8,076,983 Q4 115,039 2010-11 8,373,632 Source: 2011-12 8,608,022 Improving Access to Psychological Therapies Key Performance Indicator, NHS England. 2012-13 8,796,005 We believe the increase in the number of patients waiting for 28-days or more reflects an increase in the Mental Health Services: Staff demand for IAPT services and an increase in the overall number of people accessing those services. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for The IAPT programme has monitored waiting times Health (1) what recent assessment he has made of since roll-out of its first wave sites in 2008. Measurement staffing levels at places of safety in England as defined of waiting times is complicated by various factors, by the Mental Health Act 1983; [172909] including local processes, information technology system (2) what assessment his Department has made of capabilities and patient choice. IAPT has refined as staffing levels at places of safety in England as defined processes and systems for collecting data have become by the Mental Health Act 1983 for each year since embedded in services. This is reflected in its guidance 1997-98. [172953] over recent years in an attempt to improve accuracy and Norman Lamb: The Care Quality Commission (CQC) consistent measurement across services. For this reason has committed to reviewing all health based places of the figures from 2008 can not be viewed as a complete safety in England by March 2014 to ascertain the time, series and definitions have changed over this period. availability of health-based places of safety on a 24-hour Additionally, the mechanism for collecting IAPT data basis. The review will gather information on location, was changed for Q1 2013-14. There are some data staffing and capacity. quality problems with the most recent published figures, The CQC has started a thematic review of emergency which we are seeking to resolve as a matter of urgency. mental health care. CQC inspectors will focus on people’s experience of using mental health services and how Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for their needs are met, including access to health-based Health what real-terms expenditure on adult mental places of safety. health services has been in each year since 1997-98. [172908] Neurology

Norman Lamb: The Department does not hold the Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for information in the format requested. Health (1) how many full-time equivalent specialist The figures in the following table represent information nurses for a neurological condition, as defined under for mental health expenditure for children, adolescents Diseases of the nervous system in the International and the adult population. It is taken from the published Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related NHS (England) Summarised Accounts (1997-98 to 2010-11) Health Problems 10th Revision, were active in each (a) and the Department of Health Annual Report and primary care trust and (b) clinical commissioning Accounts (2011-12 and 2011-13). It is not possible to group in each of the last five years for which data is separately identify the amount of expenditure on mental available; [172582] illness relating to adults from these data. These figures (2) what assessment his Department has made of the represent the expenditure made by commissioners for prevalence of neurological conditions, as defined under secondary health care, in relation to mental illness. diseases of the nervous system in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related This is in the context that primary care trusts are Health Problems 10th Revision; [172583] responsible for commissioning health care from providers based on the needs of their local population. The (3) what assessment his Department has made of (a) disclosure in the accounts does not separately identify the economic and (b) societal cost of neurological primary care spend on mental health, and is not included conditions, as defined in the International Statistical in the figures. Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems 10th Revision. [172584] Purchase of secondary health care: mental illness (£000) Norman Lamb: The annual workforce census held by the Health and Social Care Information Centre does 1997-98 2,767,036 not capture the level of detail required. Information on 1998-99 2,925,934 the number of specialist nurses for a neurological condition 1999-2000 3,132,982 active in each primary care trust and clinical commissioning 2000-01 3,915,950 group in each of the last five years is not available. 2001-02 4,196,330 In a recent House of Commons Public Accounts 2002-03 4,571,651 Committee (PAC) report, the prevalence of neurological 2003-04 5,179,510 conditions; excluding migraine, was estimated at 2 million 2004-05 5,623,108 people in the United Kingdom, including Parkinson’s 2005-06 6,422,017 disease, motor neurone disease and multiple sclerosis. 2006-07 6,578,788 (″Services for people with neurological disorders″, published 2007-08 7,190,505 16 March 2012). 445W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 446W

It is problematic to reach a more precise estimate, as Change4Life Sports Clubs have been designed to the Health and Social Care Information Centre, only engage the least active children at both primary and measures Hospital Episode Statistics. This data shows secondary schools; to encourage confidence, skills and hospital episodes with neurological conditions as the enjoyment of sport and being active that will help diagnosis, not wider prevalence, as there will be people physical activity levels to remain high and not decline not admitted to hospital with these conditions. with age. The programme is independently evaluated by The published data does show hospital admissions Canterbury and Christchurch University—Sport, Physical within a financial year for all primary diagnoses of Education and Activity Research Centre. The published ICD10 codes G00-G99 (neurological conditions). The evaluation reports that the Change4Life clubs effectively data are available in full at: target and engage the least active children (those hot www.hscic.gov.uk/ achieving the UK CMOs’ Physical Activity Guidelines). searchcatalogue?productid=9161&q=title%3a%22Hospital +Episode+Statistics%2c+Admitted+patient+care+- Organs: Donors +England%22&sort=Relevance8tsize=108tpage=l#top ″ The PAC report Services for people with neurological Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State ″ disorders , placed health spending on neurological for Health what discussions officials of his Department conditions at £2.9 billion in 2009-10. Spending on social have had with officials of the Department for services for people with neurological conditions was an Education and education departments in devolved estimated £2.4 billion in 2009-10, and has remained flat administrations on incorporating organ donation and since 2005-06. transplantation into schools curricula. [172692] There are no data available as to the overall societal cost of neurological conditions. Jane Ellison: There have been no specific discussions about incorporating organ donation and transplantation NHS: Fees and Charges into school curriculum between officials from the Department and from the Department for Education Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and education departments in devolved administrations. what steps he intends to take to ensure that the However, NHS Blood and Transplant’s organ donation Government’s strategy for recovering NHS costs from strategy “Taking Organ Transplantation to 2020”, published those not entitled to free NHS treatment is compatible in July 2013, highlights the need to improve consent with its strategies for (a) opposing female genital rates. Implementation plans are being finalised, including mutilation and (b) ending violence against women and information for teachers and educating school age children girls. [172767] about organ donation and transplantation.

Jane Ellison: The Department has confirmed that Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State certain groups of people will continue to be exempt for Health when NHS Blood and Transplant and his from charges for national health service treatment on Department plan to conduct a public survey on humanitarian grounds, including refugees, asylum seekers support for organ donation. [172703] and victims of human trafficking, and is currently considering if any further exemption from charge categories Jane Ellison: The development of NHS Blood and are justified. This will be confirmed shortly when the Transplant’s (NHSBT) United Kingdom strategy “Taking Department responds to the recent consultation Sustaining Organ Transplantation to 2020” published in July 2013 services, ensuring fairness—A consultation on migrant included the use of online surveys and extensive stakeholder access and their financial contribution to NHS provision and public engagement. Implementation of the strategy in England. will include action to promote a shift in behaviour to As is the case now, where a patient is chargeable for increase consent rates. Progress will be tested through NHS treatment, no one in need of immediately necessary regular public surveys. or urgent treatment will have that withheld or delayed, NHSBT has recently commissioned independent public even if they have not paid in advance. research on organ donation, addressing key areas such as attitudes and behaviours, motivations and barriers, Obesity: Children and attitudes towards consent. This research has helped NHSBT understand the views of the public in more Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State depth and will continue to be important to inform for Health pursuant to the answer of 2 July 2013, communication. The research will be published early Official Report, column 548W, on obesity, what age next year. bracket contains the least active children; and what assessment he has made of how Change4Life clubs Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State target and work with such children. [172298] for Health when NHS Blood and Transplant plans to sponsor a systematic review of the current evidence Jane Ellison: The Health Survey for Survey for England base on consent for organ donation. [172704] (2008) reports that the proportion of girls who meet the UK chief medical officers’ (CMOS’) recommendations Jane Ellison: NHS Blood and Transplant publishes for physical activity generally declines with age, an annual Organ Donation and Transplantation Activity ranging from 35% at age two to 12% at age 14. There is Report that provides evidence of consent rates for organ a less consistent pattern with boys. The lowest level of donation throughout the United Kingdom. This will be boys achieving physical activity guidelines is reported at used to monitor progress and inform future work to age 13 (27%). improve consent to organ donation. 447W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 448W

The 2012-13 Activity report can be viewed at: responsibility of the relevant HMG contracting authority www.organdonation.nhs.uk/statistics/ to ensure the appropriate controls are in place and transplant_activity_report/ maintained. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when NHS Blood and Transplant and his Armed Forces: Employment Department plan to publish a national strategy to promote a shift in behaviour to increase consent for Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for deceased organ donation. [172705] Defence pursuant to the answer of 15 October 2013, Official Report, column 634W, on Armed Forces: Jane Ellison: NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) employment, how many armed forces personnel have published a new strategy “Taking Organ Transplantation taken part in the Career Transition Partnership in the to 2020” in July 2013. This builds on the successful last 24 months; what proportion of such people are in implementation of the Organ Donation Taskforce full time employment; and what steps his Department recommended actions published in 2008 and the 50% takes to assess the success of this scheme and the length increase in organ donation and 30% improvement in of time taken to find work. [172305] transplant rates over the last five years. A Strategy Oversight Group will monitor implementation and progress Anna Soubry: The number of armed forces personnel achieved in increasing donation and transplant rates who have left service and taken part in the Career still further. Transition Partnership (CTP) programme over the last NHSBT has also recently developed training tools 24 months to the end of the first quarter of 2012-13 is for all consultants working in intensive care units, and some 20,800. Over this 24 month period some 85% of all specialist organ donation nurses across the United former CTP participants found employment within six Kingdom, to support the approach to families of potential months of leaving service. Evidence provided by service organ donors and improve overall consent rates. leavers indicates that the resettlement provision is consistently to a high standard and that the services Warm Homes Healthy People Fund they provide do assist with a successful transition to civilian life. More detail on the data can be found on the Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Statistics website at the following link: Health pursuant to the answer of 11 September 2013, Official Report, column 716W, on Warm Homes http://www.dasa.mod.uk/publications/health/veterans/career- transition-partnership/financial-year-2012-13-q1/2009-to- Healthy People Fund, if he will make a comparative 2010-and-2012-to-2013-q1.pdf assessment of the effectiveness of the delivery of the ring-fenced funding and the Warm Homes Healthy Armed Forces; Sexual Offences People Fund. [172918]

Jane Ellison: An assessment of the 2012-13 Warm Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Homes Healthy People Fund was published on 25 October1. Defence if he will provide details of the numbers of Local authorities’ public health responsibilities include criminal convictions that have resulted from rape and prevention of excess winter deaths and injuries. These sexual crimes against military personnel by other responsibilities are supported by a ring-fenced grant military personnel in the armed forces for each year budget, revised to £5.46 billion over two years (2013-15). since 2010. [170681] Conditions have been set for the ring-fenced public health grant. These include proposals for local authority Anna Soubry: I will write to the hon. Member with reporting on public health expenditure on a quarterly the information requested. basis with detailed reporting at the end of the year. A comparative assessment of these very different approaches Substantive answer from Anna Soubry to Kevan Jones: is not being considered. In my answer of 21 October 2013 (Official Report, column 15W) I promised to write in response to your question on the 1 www.gov.uk/government/news/warm-home-fund-helped-vulnerable number of criminal convictions that have resulted from rape and -residents sexual crimes against military personnel by other military personnel in each year since 2010. Sexual crimes is not a classification used by the Department DEFENCE and is therefore considered for this purpose to include sexual assaults or assault by penetration. The following table shows the Aerospace Industry number of rapes and sexual assaults against military personnel by other military personnel in each year since 2010. Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence who is responsible for the inspection and Criminal convictions for sexual assault or enforcement of list X sites and security safeguards Criminal convictions assault by within UK-based aerospace companies. [172389] Year for rape penetration Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply on behalf of 2010 0 11 the Cabinet Office. 2011 1 16 Government contractors who handle classified material 2012 2 14 must meet the standards of protection described in the 2013 (to 30 18 Cabinet Office’s Security Policy Framework. This includes September) all sites that handle ‘Confidential’ material or above, The figures shown against each year represent the year the which are designated “List X” facilities. It is the conviction took place. 449W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 450W

Army: Germany budget. An action plan is in place to encourage small- and medium-sized enterprises to fulfil their potential in Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for responding to Defence requirements, and the Under- Defence pursuant to the answer of 16 October 2013, Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Official Report, column 740W, on army: Germany, Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne), continues to chair what additional expenditure his Department incurred the Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) SME Forum. in providing basing for these additional units at (a) The White Paper’s commitment to support responsible Dalton Barracks, Abingdon, (b) Kendrew Barracks, defence exports is underpinned by the new DG Exports Cottesmore and (c) Imjin Barracks, Gloucester, by post, which is responsible for ensuring coherence and category of expenditure. [172593] injecting pace in MOD’s contribution to many key Defence export campaigns. Deputy Chief of Defence Dr Murrison: It will take time to gather this information, Staff Military Capability also has an open-door policy I will write to the hon. Member. for industry to discuss exportability requirements with Defence: International Cooperation the military capability community. Boeing, Saab, Rockwell Collins and L-3 Communications Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for have subscribed to the Defence and Security Industrial Defence what recent progress he has made on Engagement Policy in its first year, and two additional improving and increasing defence interoperability with companies indicated at DSEI that they plan to do so. the UK’s (a) NATO allies and (b) non-NATO The MOD also supports the Defence Growth Partnership partners. [172726] in its vision for a strong, vibrant and competitive defence sector delivering battle-winning capabilities for the UK Dr Murrison: The UK continues to play a central role Armed Forces, our Allies and defence partners around in improving Alliance interoperability. For example, we the world. are: leading five of NATO’s Smart Defence projects, which are open to Allies and Partners (Maritime The Home Office has made good progress implementing Surveillance; Counter Rocket, Artillery and Mortar the security aspects of National Security through fire; Immersive Training Environments; Theatre Opening Technology. It has established the Security Exports Capability; and Defensive Aids Suite); participating in Board to oversee its programme and appointed a Director NATO’s Connected Forces Initiative, which, through for Security Industry Engagement. Work is under way exercises such as Live Exercise 2015 to which the UK in conjunction with industry to develop a UK security has committed significant forces, will practice Alliance brand, and to introduce a security and resilience growth interoperability; continuing to participate in the NATO partnership to support innovation and growth in the Response Force, as we have done throughout 2013, domestic and international markets. which drives Allied and, where appropriate, Partner interoperability; putting a greater emphasis on NATO’s Legal Costs defence planning outcomes; using NATO doctrine as our general default position; and continuing to make a Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for significant contribution to NATO standardisation activities, Defence how much his Department spent on external an important cornerstone of interoperability. The UK lawyers’ fees in the last year for which figures are is also engaged in other initiatives that will have available. [162512] interoperability benefits, including: the UK-inspired Northern Group which brings 12 northern European Allies and Partners together; the UK’s emerging Joint Anna Soubry: Fully comprehensive figures are not Expeditionary Force concept which envisages our forces held in precisely the format requested but are in the training and operating with a small group of close order of £28 million for financial year 2012-13, which nations; and the UK/France Combined Joint Expeditionary includes expenditure with the Treasury Solicitor’s Force being developed under the Lancaster House Treaty. Department, counsel and commercial legal work. The figure includes transactional property work for the Defence Defence: Procurement Infrastructure Organisation but does not include any external legal work commissioned by the single service Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence legal branches or by the Service Prosecuting Authority, what progress has been made on implementation of the or miscellaneous expenditure such as (for example) the White Paper, National Security Through Technology, use of external patent attorneys or advice sought in published in February 2012, Cm 8278. [172475] foreign jurisdictions.

Dr Murrison: Good progress has been made Nuclear Submarines implementing the ‘National Security through Technology’ White Paper. Its approach to open procurement, protection of the UK’s technology advantage and consideration of Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for exportability forms part of the Acquisition Operating Defence pursuant to the answer of 16 October 2013 on Framework and Defence Science and Technology nuclear submarines, Official Report, column 743W, on Laboratory are developing tools and guidance to help what dates the power failure incidents occurred; what practitioners apply the concepts of technology advantage the rating was for each incident on the International and exportability. We have published our forward 10-year Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale; which equipment and support plan. Our science and technology submarines were involved in each incident; and if he priorities are more transparent and we are maintaining will place in the Library the lessons learned review science and technology spending at 1.2% of the Defence conducted for each incident. [172481] 451W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 452W

Mr Dunne: Details of the four events involving the However, in the absence of wider reform there are loss of electrical power to a nuclear submarine’s reactor some changes that the Government is willing to support, cooling systems, when in port, are provided in the as it made clear by giving its backing to the hon. following table: Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles)’s Private Members Bill House of Lords Reform (No.2) during International Nuclear the second reading debate on 18 October 2013. and Radiological Date of event Submarine Port Event Scale

14 October HMS Her Majesty’s Naval Below scale CABINET OFFICE 1996 Spartan Base (HMNB) Clyde 15 October HMS Rosyth Dockyard Below scale Cybercrime 1997 Splendid 8 May 2004 HMS HMNB Devonport Below scale Chi Onwurah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Torbay Office which Minister currently has responsibility for 10 November HMS HMNB Clyde Below scale 2005 Sceptre cybersecurity. [172676] Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to my answer All of the events were rated as ‘below scale; on the given to my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale (Glyn Davies) during Cabinet Office orals on 4 September (INES), because they had no safety significance when 2013, Official Report, column 303. assessed against the criteria for rating events on the INES. I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on Low Pay 16 October 2013, Official Report, columns 742-43W, nuclear submarines have a diverse range of reactor Ian Lucas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office cooling systems, including a dedicated system that is if he will estimate how many (a) men and (b) women not dependent on electrical supplies. in (i) full-time employment, (ii) part-time employment I am withholding placing the reports into the Library and (iii) self-employment in each parliamentary of the House as their release would prejudice the capability, constituency earned less than the rate defined by the effectiveness and security of the armed forces. Living Wage Foundation as a living wage in (A) 2012 and (B) 2013 to date. [172878] Staff Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for asked the authority to reply. Defence whether a member of staff of his Department at grade PTO.1 had the authority to change the place Letter from Glen Watson, dated October 2013: of work of a member of staff at grade PTO.111 in As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I 1983. [172344] have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office, if he will estimate how Anna Soubry: In the period in question the career many (a) men and (b) women in (i) full-time employment, (ii) management of civilian Ministry of Defence personnel, part-time employment and (iii) self-employment in each parliamentary including matters of work force mobility, was conducted constituency earned less than the rate defined by the Living Wage through civilian personnel management authorities Foundation as a living wage in (A) 2012 and (B) 2013 to date. (172878). (CPMA). In the example given the PTO1 would likely I refer the honourable member to the answer provided for be involved in formulating any proposal for the PTO3 PQ 171543 published in Hansard on 22 October. I have copied it to change their workplace, but the authority to execute below for ease of reference. that would have been through a CPMA. The Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), carried out in April each year, is the most comprehensive source of Written Questions: Government Responses earnings information in the United Kingdom. The ASHE does not collect information about self-employed workers. Hourly Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for levels of earnings are estimated from ASHE, and are provided for Defence when he intends to answer parliamentary employees on adult rates of pay, whose earnings for the survey question number 162512 tabled by the hon. Member pay period were not affected by absence. It is not possible to for Hammersmith on 26 June 2013 for answer on 1 July estimate the number of people with earnings below specified thresholds, though it is possible to estimate the corresponding 2013. [172306] proportion of employee jobs. Anna Soubry: I replied to the hon. Member today. In April 2012, the latest period for which results are available, the Living Wage rates suggested by the Living Wage Foundation were £8.30 for employees who worked in London and £7.20 for employees who did not work in London. A table showing estimates DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER of the proportion of employee jobs with hourly earnings below the living wage proposed by the Living Wage foundation for each parliamentary constituency in the UK will be placed in the House of Lords: Reform Library of the House. Mr McKenzie: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Part-time Employment: Wales what his plans are for reforming the House of Lords. [171322] Ian Lucas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent estimate he has made of the number of Greg Clark: The coalition remains committed to an people in part-time work who are seeking full-time elected House of Lords with a reduced number of employment in each parliamentary constituency in members. Wales. [172886] 453W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 454W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Voluntary Work: Young People responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Letter from Glen Watson, dated October 2013: Office how many young people from Northamptonshire have taken part in the National As Director General for the Office for National Statistics Citizen Service to date. [172824] (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking for the number of people in part-time work who are Mr Hurd: Around 600 young people took part in seeking full-time employment in each parliamentary constituency National Citizen Service in Northamptonshire in 2012 in Wales. (172886) and 2013. Autumn programmes are being delivered in Employment statistics for local areas are calculated from the Northamptonshire this half-term and more places will Annual Population Survey (APS). This would provide information on the number of people who have stated that they are working be available in spring, summer and autumn next year part-time because they could not find a full-time job. However, for 16 and 17-year-olds. this does not necessarily show that they actively sought full-time work during the period in question. Unfortunately, due to small sample sizes, the requested estimates are not available for parliamentary CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT constituencies. Exercise: Young Offender Institutions While not available for parliamentary constituencies, information is available for each of the regions and countries of Great Britain Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State in Table 3 of each region’s Headline Indicators reference tables in the latest Regional Labour Market Statistical Bulletin at for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 2 July 2013, Official Report, column 613, on exercise: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-labour/regional- labour-market-statistics/october-2013/stb-regional-labour- young offender institutions, what changes in (a) market-october2013.html participation levels and (b) crime rates her National and local area estimates for many labour market Department noted as a result of Sport England-funded statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant projects which work directly with young offenders and count are available on the NOMIS website at young offenders’ institutions since 2011. [172220] http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Mrs Grant: Since 2012, over 400 young people have been engaged in projects which are part of ’Get on Pay Track’—a targeted Sport England-funded programme working with young offenders and those at risk of Ian Lucas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office offending. Monitoring and evaluation conducted since if he will estimate the median wage in real terms of April 2012 show that of those young people who completed those people in (a) work or self-employment, (b) the programme: employed for 35 hours or more per week, (c) part-time After three months: employment and (d) self-employment in each (i) local 78% were taking part regularly in sport; and authority area and (ii) parliamentary constituency in 70% were in education, employment and/or training (EET). each of the last five years. [172880] After six months: Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 75% were taking part regularly in sport; and responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have 81% were in EET. asked the authority to reply. After one year: 1 Letter from Joe Grice, dated October 2013: 94% were taking part regularly in sport. We do not hold any information on crime rates. In the absence of the Director General for the Office for 1 National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Figures are not yet available for the percentage of this group in Parliamentary Question asking for an estimate of the median EET. wage in real terms of those people in (a) work or self-employment, Mobile Phones: Barrow in Furness (b) employed for 35 hours or more per week, (c) part-time employment and (d) self-employment in each (i) local authority John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for area and (ii) parliamentary constituency in each of the last five Culture, Media and Sport what estimate she has made years. (172880). of the proportion of households in Barrow and I refer the right honourable member to the answer provided for Furness constituency which have (a) 3G network PQ 171562 published in Hansard on 22 October 2013. This is copied below for ease of reference. coverage and (b) 3G network coverage by more than one network provider. [172974] The Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), carried out in April each year, is the most comprehensive source of Mr Vaizey: Data on coverage by constituency is not earnings information in the United Kingdom. Weekly levels of held by either Government or Ofcom. Officials have earnings are estimated from ASHE, and are provided for employees on adult rates of pay, whose earnings for the survey pay period consulted Ofcom, who are able to provide data covering were not affected by absence. ASHE does not cover the self-employed. the county of Cumbria (unitary authority area). According It is not possible at this time to. produce estimates in respect of to that data, 94.9% of premises get 3G coverage, from at employees who work 35 hours or more per week, but it is possible least one network provider, and 89.2% of premises get to provide estimates for all full-time employees. coverage from at least two network providers. Tables showing estimates of median gross weekly earnings in Public Libraries: Voluntary Work each UK parliamentary constituency and local authority area from 2008 to 2012, are the latest period for which results are available. Figures are provided for full-time employees, part-time Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for employees and all employees and are given separately in cash Culture, Media and Sport what estimate she has made terms and in 2012 prices. A copy of the tables will be placed in the of the number of volunteer libraries in the country. Library of the House. [172895] 455W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 456W

Mr Vaizey: The specific information requested is not (2) what information sources are drawn on in held centrally, however research by locality indicates determining which primary health condition should be that at December 2012 there were 254 community libraries recorded for each claimant of employment and support operating in England, details of which are available at: allowance. [172899] http://libraries.communityknowledgehub.org.uk/resource/ community-libraries-england-and-wales-december-2012 Mike Penning: The information requested for Sports: Museums and Galleries International Classification of Diseases, 10th Revision, Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for codes used in the publication of employment and Culture, Media and Sport if she will make it her policy support allowance (ESA) data are shown in the following to create an Olympic and Sporting Museum to (a) table: preserve the artefacts of the nation’s Olympic and sporting history and (b) serve as an educational Condition/Codes destination and resource for schools and the public; 0 Claimants without any diagnosis code on the system and if she will make a statement. [172661] 1 Certain Infectious and Parasitic Diseases (A00-B99) Mrs Grant: The British Olympic Association is 2 Neoplasms (C00-D48) considering opportunities for mobile displays of Olympic 3 Diseases of the Blood and Blood forming organs and certain and Paralympic memorabilia that would move around diseases involving the immune mechanism (D50-D89) the country, visiting venues such as existing museums, 4 Endocrine, Nutritional and Metabolic Diseases (E00-E90) sports events and schools. 5 Mental and Behavioural Disorders (F00-F99) The Thomas Hetherwick-designed cauldron and its 6 Diseases of the Nervous System (G00-G99) components have been acquired by the Museum of 7 Diseases of the Eye and Adnexa (H00-H59) London with the approval of the Minister for Sport and 8 Diseases of the Ear and Mastoid Process (H60-H95) Tourism and the Mayor of London and will be exhibited 9 Diseases of the Circulatory System (I00-I99) there in due course. The Museum of London also holds 10 Diseases of the Respiratory System (J00-J99) one of the Olympic Torches and other artefacts, including 11 Diseases of the Digestive System (K00-K93) an Olympic Volunteer’s uniform. 12 Diseases of the Skin and Subcutaneous System (L00-L99) The London Legacy Development Corporation have 13 Diseases of the Musculoskeletal system and Connective Tissue the Olympic Bell and this will be displayed in the Queen (M00-M99) Elizabeth II Olympic Park. 14 Diseases of the Genitourinary System (N00-N99) 15 Pregnancy, Childbirth and the Puerperium (O00-O99) 16 Certain Conditions Originating in the Perinatal Period (P00-P96) WORK AND PENSIONS 17 Congenital Malformations, Deformations and Chromasomal Abnormalities (Q00-Q99) Asbestos: Insurance 18 Symptoms, Signs and Abnormal Clinical and Laboratory Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State findings, not elsewhere classified (R00-R99) for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of 19 Injury, Poisoning and certain other consequences of external the performance of insurance companies in resolving causes (S00-U22) 20 Factors influencing Health Status and Contact with Health cases of asbestos liability claims. [172768] Services (Z00-Z99) Mike Penning: DWP has introduced a Bill to establish the Diffuse Mesothelioma Payment scheme, which will ICD (disease) code causes of incapacity are based on make payments to mesothelioma sufferers in cases where the International Classification of Diseases, 10th Revision, a liable employer or insurer cannot be traced. The published by the World Health Organisation. Medical scheme will be funded by a levy on Employer Liability condition is based on evidence provided at the start of insurers. the claim, this in itself does not confer entitlement to The Mesothelioma Bill also contains powers to ESA and may not represent a claimants most recent establish a Technical Committee which would make medical condition. binding decisions in disputes between an EL insurer When the claimant makes a claim for ESA the contact and a person with diffuse mesothelioma, about whether centre records any health condition information that the insurer was providing EL cover to a particular the claimant provides. The claimant then sends in evidence employer at the time the person was negligently exposed of incapacity, which will often include a fit note. This to asbestos. This will ensure consistency across the information is used to update the medical information insurance industry in the decisions on liability in EL that we hold. The health condition information is updated mesothelioma claims. again if it changes during the course of the claim, The Financial Conduct Authority has also introduced sources of information could include further medical measures to improve tracing of insurance policies in the evidence, the health care professional report or the future. Although this does not address the issues that claimant informing the Department. Changes could have given rise to the Mesothelioma Bill it does mean include a change of diagnosis or identification of additional that in the future individuals and employers should be health conditions. Two primary health conditions and able to trace liable insurers. up to 10 secondary health conditions can be recorded Employment and Support Allowance on the system for each claimant. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Statistics on ESA claimants by ICD disease code can Work and Pensions (1) what the classifications of be found at: primary health conditions recorded for claimants of http://tabulation-tool.dwp.gov.uk/100pc/esa/icdgp/ employment and support allowance are; [172897] payment_type/a_carate_r_icdgp_c_payment_type_feb13.html 457W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 458W

Guidance for users is available at: Housing Benefit: Wales https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dwp-tabulation- tool-guidance Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Food Banks Work and Pensions what payments were made from the discretionary housing payment budget to each local authority in Wales; what proportion of the overall Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for discretionary housing payment budget such payments Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 10 to each local authority represent; and what level of October 2013, Official Report, column 405W, on food such payments has been allocated to each local banks, if he will publish the updated guidance issued to authority in 2013-14. [172461] Jobcentre Plus staff on signposting people to food banks. [172651] Steve Webb: The last year for which we currently have details of expenditure is 2012-13. The first table shows Esther McVey: To reflect changes to Local Welfare the Government contribution towards discretionary housing Provision in April 2013, guidance was updated accordingly. payments made available to each local authority in It is not common practice in DWP to publish internal Wales, and their expenditure against that contribution. guidance. The second table details the Government contribution Housing Benefit towards discretionary housing payments that is available to each local authority in Wales for 2013-14. Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for This year, in addition to the original Government Work and Pensions which 21 councils will receive a contribution, local authorities in Wales are able to bid share of £5 million of extra discretionary housing for funding from a £20 million reserve fund. The scheme payment for sparsely populated areas; and how much is open to bids until 3 February 2014. each such council will receive. [172543] 2012-13 Government contribution towards discretionary housing payments and total expenditure Steve Webb: This year, in addition to the original 2012-13 Government contribution and the extra £5 million for Government contribution, sparsely populated areas, local authorities are able to including bid for funding from a £20 million reserve fund. The permitted carry- Total Percentage spent scheme is open to bids until 3 February 2014. Welsh local over from expenditure against 2012-13 authorities 2011-12 (£) 2012-13 (£) allocation (%) The 21 Councils which received a share of the £5 million of extra discretionary housing payment for Blaenau Gwent 49,846 58,839 118 sparsely populated areas and how much they received Bridgend 127,320 97,831 77 as part of the £5 million are as follows: Caerphilly 72,471 74,586 103 Cardiff 485,508 482,145 99 Local authority Additional amount (£) Carmarthenshire 142,913 111,338 78 Ceredigion 117,674 119,491 102 Eilean Siar 66,930 Conwy 170,642 102,786 60 Highland 734,995 Denbighshire 109,524 99,701 91 Argyll and Bute 252,313 Flintshire 120,008 109,071 91 Shetland Islands 46,748 Gwynedd 150,474 157,444 105 Orkney Islands 37,071 Isle of Anglesey 73,538 47,898 65 Dumfries and Galloway 488,177 Merthyr Tydfil 41,617 11,750 28 Eden 133,104 Monmouthshire 43,585 108,963 250 Scottish Borders 322,067 Neath Port 130,358 104,372 80 Powys 357,870 Talbot Newport 136,620 131,033 96 Perth and Kinross 361,018 Pembrokeshire 116,040 56,810 49 Ryedale 157,746 Powys 61,596 56,016 91 Aberdeenshire 412,173 Rhondda 192,334 148,123 77 Moray 180,923 Cynon Taf Richmondshire 104,640 Swansea 217,609 217,608 100 Stirling 272,576 Torfaen 56,709 112,509 198 Ceredigion 161,542 Vale of 125,899 88,739 70 West Devon 79,143 Glamorgan Craven 110,926 Wrexham 57,538 57,313 100 Gwynedd 363,788 West Somerset 81,850 2013-14 Government contribution towards discretionary housing payments Angus 274,401 Welsh local authorities £ Further information can be found in Housing Benefit Blaenau Gwent 160,251 Bulletin U4/2013 and Subsidy Circular S6/2013 which Bridgend 279,100 can be accessed through the following links: Caerphilly 292,597 Cardiff 1,102,669 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Carmarthenshire 280,840 attachment_data/file/226996/u4-2013.pdf Ceredigion 324,933 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Conwy 242,700 attachment_data/file/236635/s6-2013.pdf 459W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 460W

2013-14 Government contribution towards discretionary housing payments The JCP offer consists of: Welsh local authorities £ Mandatory work focused interviews,—which must be undertaken (JSA, ESA and UC claimants, lone parents on IS, partners of Denbighshire 217,194 claimants on income related benefits and carers on IS) Flintshire 242,119 Flexible interventions—the adviser will determine the frequency, Gwynedd 605,141 duration and content by assessing the support the claimants Isle of Anglesey 136,536 needs, and Merthyr Tydfil 124,556 Access to a flexible menu of back to work support, including Monmouthshire 121,978 the flexible support fund Neath Port Talbot 318,083 Jobcentre Plus advisers are able to offer claimants a Newport 343,870 comprehensive menu of help including volunteering Pembrokeshire 193,940 opportunities, skills support and work experience. This Powys 512,845 will vary from district to district depending on the needs Rhondda Cynon Taf 451,301 of the local labour market. Swansea 474,871 Advisers work with each claimant to judge which Torfaen 193,584 interventions will help them move into employment, at Vale of Glamorgan 219,639 the most appropriate point in a claim, tailoring this to Wrexham 198,082 individual need. Jobseeker’s Allowance In addition Work Choice provides specialist disability employment support for disabled people who face the most complex barriers to find and stay in work and Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for ultimately help them progress into unsupported Work and Pensions what comparative assessment he employment, where it is appropriate for the individual. has made of the effect on the relative health of It is available to all eligible and suitable working age claimants and their dependants of changes to the people, regardless of whether they claim benefit or jobseeker’s allowance sanction regime introduced in which benefit they claim. October 2012. [172926] The Work Programme provides additional tailored support to those at risk of long term unemployment. Esther McVey: A specific assessment of this kind has Providers are free to design support based on individual not yet been made. We are however evaluating all the and local need. IS and IB claimants can volunteer to changes and certain safeguards continue to apply, such participate at any time, ESA claimants can volunteer to as the requirements on claimant’s are reasonable and participate following their work capability assessment tailored to their circumstances, calling/visiting vulnerable and participation becomes mandatory for ESA claimants claimants and making hardship payments. closer to being fit for work. Social Security Benefits Work Programme

Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what performance targets he has Work and Pensions (1) if he intends to issue a report on established for speed of processing and payment of (a) the deliberations of the Work Programme best practice income support, (b) housing benefit, (c) employment group; and if he will make a statement; [172901] and support allowance and (d) jobseeker’s allowance. (2) how many times the Work Programme best [172523] practice group has met since 24 April 2013. [172903]

Esther McVey: The performance targets are: Esther McVey: The Work Programme best practice group will issue its final advice to me in spring 2014, (a) 90% of income support claims processed within 13 days although it may make recommendations on an ad hoc (c) 85% of employment and support allowance claims processed basis in the meantime. It has not yet been decided within 16 days whether a report will be published. (d) 90% of jobseeker’s allowance claims processed within 16 So far there have been 11 meetings of the Work days. Programme: Building Best practice group and sub-groups Please note DWP is not responsible for the processing (the main group has met twice, and the sub-groups have of housing benefit. met nine times). Unemployment HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Andy McDonald: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Work and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to tackle unemployment among those people George Galloway: To ask the hon. Member for who are without work but not currently claiming Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing jobseeker’s allowance. [172828] the House of Commons Commission (1) which company provides energy to the parliamentary estate. Esther McVey: Job Centre Plus delivers back to work [172153] support to claimants across all working age benefits— (2) what the annual energy bill is for the jobseekers allowance (JSA), employment and support parliamentary estate; what steps the Commission takes allowance (ESA), incapacity benefit (IB), income support to find the cheapest energy supplier; and what recent (IS) and universal credit (UC), through a flexible model consideration the Commission has given to changing that focuses on outcomes and personalised support. the energy supplier to the estate. [172152] 461W Written Answers29 OCTOBER 2013 Written Answers 462W

John Thurso: Natural gas supplies are provided by The House Authorities use the Government Procurement Corona Energy and electricity supplies are provided by Service (GPS) framework to provide energy suppliers. British Gas Trading Ltd and EDF Energy. This is a competitively tendered process. The House The energy costs for the parliamentary estate for the policy is to use public sector frameworks where these last five financial years were: are available as they have tested the market and greatly reduce the time taken and resource incurred by the £ million House.

2008-09 3.743 The Commission has not recently considered changing 2009-10 3.986 the energy supplier to the Estate as the House Authorities 2010-11 4.107 use the public sector frameworks to identify energy 2011-12 4.353 suppliers. In order for the House to change its suppliers 2012-13 4.653 it would first need to give six months’ notice to the GPS that it was terminating the use of their framework It is not possible to provide a breakdown of the service. energy consumption between the two Houses. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 29 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 739 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Attacks on Christians (Pakistan) ...... 744 continued China ...... 751 LGBT Community (Russia)...... 752 Colombia ...... 753 Overseas British Risk Register ...... 754 Detention of British Nationals (Russia)...... 741 Palestinian Child Detainees ...... 739 Iran (Child Executions)...... 753 Sri Lanka (Human Rights) ...... 742 Iran (Nuclear Capability)...... 746 Syria...... 748 Iran (Nuclear Programme)...... 747 Topical Questions ...... 754 Kashmir...... 744 UK Exports ...... 750 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 29 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 35WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 43WS Planning Administration...... 35WS Scotland Analysis: Security...... 43WS ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 36WS European Union (Referendum) Bill ...... 36WS JUSTICE...... 44WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Victims of Crime...... 44WS AFFAIRS...... 38WS Dog Attacks (Maximum Penalties) ...... 38WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 39WS TRANSPORT ...... 45WS Foreign Affairs and General Affairs Councils Highways Agency ...... 47WS (21-22 October)...... 39WS HS2...... 45WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 29 October 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 397W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Charities Act 2006...... 397W continued Corruption: Public Service...... 397W Fire Services: Pensions ...... 401W Fraud: Prosecutions ...... 397W Housing: Construction...... 402W Human Trafficking: Prosecutions...... 398W Mortgage Repossessions (Protection of Tenants Police: Surveillance ...... 399W etc) Act 2010...... 402W Prosecutions...... 399W Second Homes: Cumbria ...... 402W Serious Fraud Office ...... 400W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 454W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 403W Exercise: Young Offender Institutions...... 454W Arms Trade: Egypt...... 403W Mobile Phones: Barrow in Furness ...... 454W Business: Regulation ...... 403W Public Libraries: Voluntary Work ...... 454W Conditions of Employment...... 403W Sports: Museums and Galleries...... 455W Degrees ...... 405W Green Investment Bank ...... 405W DEFENCE...... 447W Overseas Trade: Asia...... 406W Aerospace Industry...... 447W Overseas Trade: China ...... 406W Armed Forces: Employment ...... 448W Post Office...... 407W Armed Forces; Sexual Offences...... 448W Post Office: Northern Ireland...... 408W Army: Germany...... 449W Defence: International Cooperation...... 449W Defence: Procurement...... 449W CABINET OFFICE...... 452W Legal Costs ...... 450W Cybercrime ...... 452W Nuclear Submarines...... 450W Low Pay...... 452W Staff ...... 451W Part-time Employment: Wales...... 452W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 451W Pay...... 453W Voluntary Work: Young People...... 454W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 451W House of Lords: Reform...... 451W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 400W Bellwin Scheme ...... 400W EDUCATION...... 432W Empty Property: Shops...... 400W Academies...... 432W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Academies: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 433W Crime: Cumbria...... 390W Curriculum ...... 433W Entry Clearances: Foreign Workers...... 391W Education Endowment Foundation ...... 434W EU Justice and Home Affairs...... 391W Free Schools: Bedfordshire...... 434W Firearms: Licensing ...... 395W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 435W Hilal Abdul-Razzaq Ali al-Jedda ...... 395W History: GCSE...... 435W Human Trafficking: Victims...... 395W Private Education...... 436W Immigration: Public Consultation...... 396W Schools ...... 436W Modern Day Slavery Bill (Draft)...... 396W Schools: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 436W Sexual Offences...... 397W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 460W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 428W Energy...... 460W Energy...... 428W Energy: Meters...... 431W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 413W Fuel Oil: Prices...... 431W Belarus...... 413W Hinkley Point C Power Station ...... 431W EU Aid ...... 414W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL JUSTICE...... 415W AFFAIRS...... 408W Children and Young Persons Act 1933...... 415W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 408W Corruption: EU Law...... 415W Food ...... 409W Courts: Buildings ...... 416W Food: Imports...... 409W Judges ...... 418W Food: Poverty...... 409W Offenders: Deportation...... 421W Forests ...... 410W Prisoners ...... 422W Probation ...... 423W Sexual Offences...... 423W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 410W The Guardian...... 417W Burma...... 411W Egypt ...... 411W TRANSPORT ...... 423W Eritrea...... 411W Bus Services ...... 423W Exports ...... 412W First TransPennine Express...... 424W Gibraltar: Spain ...... 412W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 424W Iran...... 413W High Speed Two...... 425W Iran: Nuclear Proliferation...... 410W Liverpool Airport ...... 426W Sri Lanka ...... 412W Railways: Scotland...... 426W Zimbabwe: Pension Payments ...... 411W Railways: Standards...... 427W Roads: South West...... 427W HEALTH...... 436W Tankers ...... 428W Additives...... 436W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Birmingham...... 437W TREASURY ...... 383W Compulsorily Detained Mental Patients ...... 437W Energy...... 383W Dementia ...... 439W Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks...... 383W Dental Services ...... 439W Excise Duties: Motor Vehicles...... 384W Donors: Health Education...... 439W Financial Conduct Authority...... 384W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 439W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 384W Health Visitors...... 440W Married Tax Allowance ...... 385W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 441W Performance Appraisal ...... 385W Kernicterus ...... 441W Public Expenditure...... 386W Maternity Services ...... 442W Stamp Duty Land Tax ...... 388W Mental Health Services ...... 442W VAT: Charities ...... 389W Mental Health Services: Staff...... 444W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 455W Neurology ...... 444W Asbestos: Insurance ...... 455W NHS: Fees and Charges ...... 445W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 455W Obesity: Children ...... 445W Food Banks...... 457W Organs: Donors ...... 446W Housing Benefit ...... 457W Warm Homes Healthy People Fund...... 447W Housing Benefit: Wales...... 458W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 459W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 389W Social Security Benefits...... 459W Animal Experiments ...... 389W Unemployment ...... 459W Arrest Warrants ...... 389W Work Programme...... 460W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 29 October 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 739] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Licensed Hackney Carriages and Private Hire Vehicles (Closed Circuit Television) [Col. 761] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Richard Fuller)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Pensions Bill [Col. 766] Programme motion (No. 2) agreed to As amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

Eurojust and the European Public Prosecutor’s Office [Col. 873] Motion—James Brokenshire—agreed to

Citizenship (Armed Forces) Bill (Ways and Means) [Col. 893] Motion—(Mr Harper)—agreed to

Crystal Palace Park [Col. 894] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Hepatitis C (Haemophiliacs) [Col. 197WH] Post Offices (Islington) [Col. 222WH] Nuclear Test Veterans [Col. 230WH] Flood Defences (Thurnham, Lancashire) [Col. 244WH] North Liverpool Community Justice Centre [Col. 253WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 35WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 383W] [see index inside back page]