Thursday Volume 495 9 July 2009 No. 109

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 9 July 2009

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are just a really bad joke. At the time, the Prime Minister House of Commons said that he was in favour of bringing forward a gold standard scheme that would be made mandatory for the Thursday 9 July 2009 industry as a whole. Can the Secretary of State say how close we are to bringing forward such a mandatory scheme? The House met at half-past Ten o’clock Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend raises an important PRAYERS issue. He has a long and distinguished record of campaigning on such matters. I believe that the social tariff system needs reform. At present, the system tends [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] to be piecemeal—who gets into it and who does not is often an arbitrary process. We shall have more to say about it in the future. Oral Answers to Questions Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): I welcome the Secretary of State back from his paternity leave. He is looking fantastically well, considering that he is being ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE woken every two hours of the night by bawling and screaming—but perhaps he is not returning the Prime Minister’s calls these days. The Secretary of State was asked— Does the Secretary of State think that the relationship between wholesale and retail gas prices is sufficiently Domestic Energy Tariffs transparent?

1. Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) Edward Miliband: I think that we have brought greater (LD): What recent discussions he has had with (a) transparency to it. The hon. Gentleman will know that energy companies and (b) Ofgem on the structure of as a result of the announcement made by the Chancellor domestic energy tariffs; and if he will make a in the Budget there is now a quarterly publication by statement. [285151] Ofgem on the relationship between wholesale and retail prices. As always, I am open to any suggestions about The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how to improve the situation. I agree with the hon. (Edward Miliband): I have frequent discussions with Gentleman that we need proper transparency so that Ofgem and the energy companies on domestic energy people can see that when wholesale prices go down, tariffs. In the past nine months, and following Ofgem’s retail prices follow. finding of unfair pricing, suppliers have removed £300 million in unfair premiums, including £96 million from those on prepayment meters. Ofgem is also Greg Clark: I am grateful for that. Let me make a changing the law to forbid future unfair discrimination suggestion. At the moment, we have a situation in against customers on the basis of where they live or which two Government quangos are saying contradictory how they pay. things. Ofgem says that everything is under control, yet just last week Consumer Focus said that every household Mr. Carmichael: I am grateful to the Secretary of is paying £74 a year too much. As a suggestion, can the State for that answer. Is he aware of the situation that Secretary of State cut through the confusion and end it faces some of my constituents? When changing from once and for all by a swift, forensic reference to the prepay meters to key meters—from card meters to key Competition Commission on that narrow point? meters—they found that they were having to pay the premium, which was later to be refunded by the energy Edward Miliband: I will look at the hon. Gentleman’s company. Surely, that system should not be allowed proposal. Personally, I am worried about references to to operate. the Competition Commission, apart from the most extreme cases and I will tell him why: it is a lengthy Edward Miliband: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman process, which will not yield results on behalf of the for raising that issue and I hope that the change in consumer. However, I will look at the point that he licence conditions that Ofgem is introducing will prevent raises and I undertake to discuss it with Ofgem. unfair pricing practices. I should be grateful if he wrote to me, or provided me with more information, about the Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): On unfair particular practice that he was talking about, and I shall electricity prices, I have been on my knees to my right obviously draw it to Ofgem’s attention to see what can hon. Friend’s predecessors about industrial electricity be done. prices. My right hon. Friend as a south Yorkshire MP will know of the devastation of job losses in the steel Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South) (Lab): The Secretary industry, caused in part by high electricity prices. Will of State will recall that earlier in the year, the Prime he talk to EDF, which is a state-owned company, and if Minister met a group of MPs who were concerned the company will not listen, will he talk to his opposite about the complete mess the energy companies are number in Paris, and ask them to agree the same tariff making of social tariffs. Only 600,000 households of with Corus as exists in France or other European countries, the 5.1 million in fuel poverty are included in the tariffs, so that greater hope can be given on the future of the many of which are so obscure and inaccessible that they steel industry in south Yorkshire? 1113 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1114

Edward Miliband: The difference between us and the how to bring non-standard homes into the scheme. For French is that we do not direct tariffs for energy companies. example, for solid-wall homes, we are producing new We do not have that system, but I think that my right programmes and pilots that will give us the option of hon. Friend raises an important point. Yesterday, I met using air source heat pumps. Through other programmes, representatives of industry from the west midlands who such as the carbon emissions reduction target uplift, are concerned about the position of other industrial which is an obligation on energy companies, we will consumers. I think that we need tough regulation in that make it possible to do more work in homes that are not area, which is one where Ofgem needs to act. It is conventionally built. something that I have discussed, and will discuss, with Ofgem. Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): Does the Minister agree that one of the biggest and easiest hits Home Energy Efficiency that we can make when it comes to our climate change ambitions is tackling domestic carbon emissions? The 2. Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): How much funding measures taken in the home are therefore the most he has allocated for home energy efficiency measures in important. Why does she not bang heads together, get a 2010-11. [285152] smart metering agreement between the various companies, and implement it as soon as possible? The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): The principal schemes Joan Ruddock: I agree with the hon. Lady’s proposition. for delivering home energy efficiency in 2010-11 will be About 27 per cent. of our emissions come from the Warm Front, the carbon emissions reduction target, domestic sector and result from the choices that we and the community energy saving programme. The make, so that sector is very important. We have already budget for Warm Front in 2010-11 is £195 million. The announced a roll-out of smart meters. It is a complex other two schemes are funded by the energy companies, programme—it needs to reach every household in the so the information for a specific year is commercially country—so it will start next year and will take 10 years. confidential. However, based on the measures that are If we can speed it up, we will. It is very important, it is to be delivered, we can say that estimated overall spend the way forward, and we will do it. will be around £3.7 billion between 2008 and 2012. Mr. David Chaytor (Bury, North) (Lab): Is it not the Paul Rowen: I thank the Minister for that. I am sure case that a national energy efficiency programme is that she is aware that there are 2¼ pensioners in fuel important not only as regards climate change, but for poverty—[HON.MEMBERS:“2¼ million.”] Sorry; there job creation? On the economic stimulus packages that are 2¼ million pensioners in fuel poverty, yet the pre-Budget different countries have introduced in response to the report estimated that the increase in expenditure on the economic crisis, is it not true that the proportion of issue would deal with an extra 66,000 people only. those resources that we are allocating to green jobs is Given that she has not told us how many people the far lower than in the USA, China, France, Germany energy companies will help, what impact will that extra and South Korea? Would not a national energy efficiency expenditure have on reducing pensioner fuel poverty? programme, clearly identified and clearly branded, be one of the most effective ways of registering our support Joan Ruddock: Let me tell the hon. Gentleman that, for action against climate change, and— because of our fuel poverty policies, we managed to bring 4 million people out of fuel poverty. That was a Mr. Speaker: Order. May I say gently to the hon. huge achievement. It is the rise in global prices that has Gentleman that I think that he has had three questions? put people, including pensioners, back into fuel poverty. He will, however, get one answer from the Minister. However, in the winter, we raised the fuel payments for pensioners to the highest level ever, and we have said Joan Ruddock: May I tell my hon. Friend the Member that we will do that again this winter. We have ongoing for Bury, North (Mr. Chaytor) that 21 per cent. of our programmes with the energy companies, and they are targeted measures were on green jobs? We, of course, giving social assistance as well, so I suggest to him that started from a much higher base than the United States; the Government are doing a great deal to alleviate fuel we had already put in place many measures, and were poverty. already on track to increase them. The home energy saving strategy, on which the Government recently Mr. Andy Reed (Loughborough) (Lab/Co-op): While consulted, provides for what is essentially a national I welcome the Warm Front programme in particular, is energy saving programme, directed at homes and small the Minister aware that a large number of houses of a business. That will go ahead very shortly, and I think non-traditional construction type will not be given a that it will produce the kind of measures that my hon. guarantee, and so cannot have the work done? It is Friend has championed in the House. estimated that there are 250,000 such houses across the country. Will the Minister meet me and others to discuss Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): The hon. the problem, so that we can find some way of getting Member for Bury, North (Mr. Chaytor), is absolutely efficiency measures into non-traditional homes, and so right. We need a national energy efficiency programme that everybody can benefit from the work that is being with far greater ambition than that shown in the three done? rather pedestrian programmes and the very vague funding that the Minister has mentioned. The fact of the matter Joan Ruddock: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. is that, even if we include private sector funding, we We have, of course, had due regard to the points that he spend about a third of what Germany spends on energy and others have made, and we are looking carefully at efficiency, and it is already far more efficient than we 1115 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1116 are. If we want a programme that is attractive and easy Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend makes an important for consumers, and that will ensure the transformation point about rural areas. The truth is—this is why what in energy efficiency that the Government have failed to the G8 leaders agreed yesterday is significant—that we deliver, they will need to adopt our proposals of £6,500 need action throughout the world to protect people in for every household in the country, and a real partnership rural areas, because we know that climate change is a between a public— global issue. Unless every country acts, we will not be able to avoid the dangerous climate change that would Mr. Speaker: Order. May I say for the benefit of the increase the frequency of events such as the one mentioned Front-Bench team in the future that what we need is not by my hon. Friend, which happened in my constituency, a statement, but a question? too. Again, he makes an important point about energy efficiency. One of the things that we have done in the Warm Front programme, for example, is to pilot measures Joan Ruddock: The Government will not take any for people off the gas grid, which is an issue in rural suggestions such as the hon. Member for Bexhill and areas, to try to help them with new kinds of renewable Battle (Gregory Barker) has made about his programme. heating. Also, the community energy saving programme [Interruption.] Let me explain to him. I wrote to his that my hon. Friend the Minister of State mentioned colleague, the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg will pilot help for some of the poorest people in rural areas. Clark), to ask him to explain exactly how the Opposition’s programme was to be funded. I have had no reply to Mrs. Humble: I very much welcome the huge investment that letter. We have costed it at £200 billion. Where will that the Government have put into new sea defences in the money come from? His party is dedicated to cutting Blackpool and in Cleveleys, but what further action can the Department that sponsors such programmes. There the Government take to protect and inform people is no way that the programme that the hon. Member for about the immediate risks of climate change and to Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) mentions will be plan for a low carbon economy that will safeguard our funded and we— future?

Mr. Speaker: Order. I think the Minister of State is Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend is right to say that being led astray by the statement. We must focus on the spending on flood defences will have to increase. It policy of the Government, rather than that of the already has increased to £800 million in the final year of Opposition. the current spending review. That is an important investment, which will have to rise further. The best combination for us would be to adapt to the effects of Climate Change climate change that are inevitable, and to strive domestically and internationally for the action needed to prevent 3. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): What dangerous climate change in future. That combination recent representations he has received from those living of measures is necessary and we must strive for it, in rural areas on the effects on their living conditions of particularly in the next six months in the run-up to climate change; and if he will make a statement. Copenhagen. [285153] Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): I noted the Secretary of State’s responses. Surely informing 4. Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) the public should be a top priority to get them on (Lab): What steps he is taking to inform the public of board. His recent pamphlet was a start. How effective the effects on their living conditions of climate change; does he think measures such as pamphlets are in making and if he will make a statement. [285154] the public aware of the important challenges facing individuals and households, as well as industry? The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Edward Miliband): The recent UK climate projections Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman makes an spelled out the dangers of unchecked climate change: important and challenging point for all of us. We are hotter, drier summers and warmer, wetter winters. As sending out copies of the leaflet on the Copenhagen people from rural areas have made clear, this would manifesto, to which he refers. My assessment of the have a particular effect on agriculture and farming. My state of the debate in Britain is that it is good, because Department, working alongside the Department for there is broad consensus politically about the need to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, is seeking to tackle the problem and among the public about the inform people of the economic, social and human science. However, we need to bring home the point—this consequences of this for the UK, and therefore of the relates to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for need to act on climate change. Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble) made— that climate change will happen in the UK if we do not Mr. Drew: Two years ago my county was under water, take action on the problem. The danger is that people which sadly is a harbinger of what climate change will think that it will happen to people somewhere else. We probably bring. What guarantees can the Government have to convince people that it will affect future generations give that we will get appropriate measures—those that in the UK significantly if we do not act. we have already spoken about—and that those measures Fuel Poverty will be applied in rural areas, where we have a disproportionately high number of older people living 5. Danny Alexander (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch in older property which is in desperate need of treatment and Strathspey) (LD): What recent progress the by measures such as loft insulation? Can the Government Government have made towards their targets for the reassure me about what they are willing to do? alleviation of fuel poverty. [285155] 1117 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1118

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy Miss McIntosh: I am grateful for that answer but, and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): We remain from the proceedings of the Climate Change Bill, the committed to doing all that is reasonably practicable to Minister will be aware that if energy-from-waste plants ensure that households do not live in fuel poverty. are to be successful, they need to have access to ROCs Between 1996 and 2005, the number of fuel-poor on the same basis as other projects. Will she consider households in the UK fell from about 6.5 million to making the criteria apply in a similar way to the energy about 2.5 million. Rising fuel prices have reversed that sector? trend, and that is why my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister last year announced a 20 per cent. uplift in the Joan Ruddock: We need to acknowledge that, to date, carbon emissions reduction target, a new community there has not been the most effective provision. Indeed, energy saving programme, higher Warm Front grants in April, we altered the fuel measurement and sampling and a big increase in cold weather payments. requirements on energy-from-waste plants to secure ROCs in response to industry feedback that the previous Danny Alexander: I am grateful to the Minister for requirements were too arduous. We have seen a positive that answer. Given that people who use heating oil and response to that, and departmental officials are working liquefied petroleum gas are more than twice as likely to with industry representatives and Ofgem to establish be in fuel poverty than the rest of the population, will new measurement techniques. As the hon. Lady knows, he assure me that the ongoing renewable heating incentive the Government support energy-from-waste plants. We consultation will not propose an additional levy on have made a significant sum of money—about £2 billion— heating oil and LPG? That would be paid by people available to do that. A number of huge projects are on who use heating oil and LPG in rural areas, and it the stocks and we expect them to come to fruition soon. would add to the bills of people who already pay the In May, the largest one was finalised in Greater Manchester. highest prices in the country. River Severn Estuary (Barrage) Mr. Kidney: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, but I am not prepared to give that assurance 7. Mr. Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): today. What I can say is that our proposals for feed-in What progress has been made on his Department’s tariffs and renewable heating incentives offer new appraisal of the proposals for a barrage on the River opportunities for people to reduce their energy costs by Severn estuary; and if he will make a statement. producing more energy for themselves and, hopefully, [285157] selling back an excess afterwards. We will consult on our proposals for the renewable heating incentive, which The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy we hope to have in place by April 2011. and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): The Government response to the public consultation on Severn tidal power is expected to be published shortly. A decision on Mr. Brian Jenkins (Tamworth) (Lab): Will my hon. whether to support a Severn estuary power scheme will Friend assure us all that his Department is alive to the be made after further assessment of the costs, benefits fact that, when energy prices went up, domestic prices and impacts, and following a second public consultation, followed very rapidly, but when energy prices fell, domestic which is likely next year. prices did not fall as rapidly? What is his Department doing to track those companies and ensure that they do Mr. Robertson: I am grateful to the Minister for that not rip off their customers? response. When he said that a decision would be made on whether to support the idea, what exactly did he Mr. Kidney: I should say two things about that: first, mean? If it goes ahead, I presume that the entire barrage my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made will be funded privately.What support can the Government me responsible for consumer interests, so I personally give that project? shall take an interest in the issue; and, secondly, Ofgem has been asked to produce quarterly reports on the very Furthermore, when the Minister assesses the appraisal, point that my hon. Friend has made, so that there is will he make sure that there will be no negative impact both transparency and the information to hand to on my constituency of Tewkesbury, which flooded very enable people such as me to take action if necessary. badly two years ago? I am not against the barrage in principle, but will the Minister make sure that there would be absolutely no negative impact on my constituency Energy (Waste Facilities) in that respect?

6. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): What Mr. Kidney: The hon. Gentleman has asked me so criteria apply to the eligibility for renewables obligation many questions; I shall do my best to answer as many as certificates of energy-from-waste facilities; and if he you will allow me to, Mr. Speaker. As the hon. Gentleman will make a statement. [285156] knows, we take flooding extremely seriously and it will be considered as part of any environmental assessment The Minister of State, Department of Energy and for any project that might go ahead. Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): Renewables obligation As to what project might go ahead, the hon. Gentleman certificates are granted only on the biomass proportion knows that a range of possibilities are before us. The of the input waste in an energy-from-waste plant. To be consultation that has just taken place is about which are eligible for ROCs, energy-from-waste plants must be feasible and practicable and should be pursued further. accredited as combined heat and power plants and have That further stage is due next. There are tremendous agreed a fuel measurement and sampling procedure gains to be made from renewable energy, but we know with Ofgem. that the environment in question is internationally important 1119 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1120 and that people locally are concerned about a number green jobs and what likely investment there will be for of navigation issues. All those subjects will be considered the UK economy off the back of the technology, if it in that second consultation. moves forward?

Dr. Kim Howells (Pontypridd) (Lab): My hon. Friend Edward Miliband: There is huge jobs potential. It is will forgive me for saying that I have been hearing such estimated that, in the round, there could be 30,000 to statements for at least 30 years. I would very much like 60,000 jobs in carbon capture and sequestration by to know his opinion of the two technologies that seem 2030. That is an indication of the scale of the potential, to be emerging. One is a 10-mile barrage across the but that requires a certain funding stream for carbon Severn and the other is the building of tidal lagoons. capture and storage. We have managed to find a proposal Which does he think will offer the best value for money, to make that happen, and it will be in a fifth-Session which will do the least environmental damage and when Bill, subject to consultation. I hope that it will receive are we going to get on with building them? all-party support.

Mr. Kidney: A lot of progress has been made in just Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): the past 12 months. My right hon. Friend is very unfair Can the Secretary of State confirm that the Minister in in asking me to announce my chosen project today; another place said during a debate on the carbon budgets— there are a good number to be assessed before that alas, we have not had that debate in this Chamber—that decision can be made. However, as the Sustainable there was no realistic prospect of commercial carbon Development Commission said in its report, there is capture and storage before 2025 and that, therefore, tremendous potential. We would be irresponsible not to when the Prime Minister offered the prospect of four take seriously the prospects of possibly getting quite a such stations as a way of helping us out of the recession, large proportion of renewable energy from these sources. he was either misleading the House or presupposing The technologies, their respective costs and who would that the recession is going to go on for another decade pay for the investment, however, are matters still to be and a half? determined. Edward Miliband: If I may say so, that was, uncharacteristically, a slightly confused question from Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Will the Minister the right hon. Gentleman. The truth is that we will be reassure us that the Government are not drifting relentlessly demonstrating carbon capture and storage, and we towards the solution of one giant barrage, with all the want to do so as soon as possible; that is why we are environmental consequences that that might have? We introducing the funding mechanism. There is a separate should keep open the option of a mix of technologies question about when it will be commercially deployable starting with a much smaller barrage, such as the Shoots on a widespread basis in this country and around the barrage. That could start saving carbon much earlier world. The figures that I have seen suggest that that is and make more of a contribution to carbon budgets—and possible by 2020; obviously opinions differ. However, without those dire environmental consequences. the most important thing is to drive the technology forward as quickly as possible and I hope that he shares Mr. Kidney: It does not even pain me to say that I that aspiration. have seen the Liberal Democrat proposals and that they will be taken into consideration when we assess the Mr. Jim Devine (Livingston) (Lab): Does my right different options. I assure the hon. Gentleman that hon. Friend know about a Scottish company called every practicable technology and scheme will be considered. Elimpus, which is at the forefront of technology in Each will be assessed, and we cannot make a decision at identifying leaks in nuclear power plants and from this stage; there is work to be done before we can. pylon wires? Recognising that it is a worldwide company, will he agree to meet me and its representatives so that Carbon Capture and Storage its technology can be applied in Scotland?

Mr. Speaker: Order. I fear that the question might be 8. Mr. Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): a little wide, but I will leave it to the Secretary of State’s What recent representations he has received on the discretion. development of carbon capture and storage technology; and if he will make a statement. [285158] Edward Miliband: I am sure that the company to which my hon. Friend refers has equities in a range of The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change areas, including carbon capture and storage. Subject to (Edward Miliband): Since my statement to the House in time being available, I am happy to meet him and its April and our consultation document last June, we have representatives. had a wide range of representations on carbon capture and storage. There has been a warm welcome for the Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): Does the Secretary combination of the most environmentally ambitious of State accept that as a result of the Government’s conditions for new coal-fired power stations in the delays and dithering, we are not leading the world in world, which we announced, and a plan, backed by this technology, and that we are now behind the United legislation, for up to four CCS demonstration projects. States, Canada, Norway, Abu Dhabi, China and other countries? Does he understand that one third of our Mr. Brown: I thank my right hon. Friend for that coal plant is closing in the next few years, but because of reply. Companies such as Scottish Power have a strong the Government’s delays investment in new coal plant is interest in CCS technology. Has he estimated how many on hold, as companies do not know what the CCS 1121 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1122 regime is? For nuclear, the Government set out a road agree to meet me and farmers in my constituency to map, with the Office for Nuclear Development and the help us to gain priority access to the national grid and Nuclear Development Forum. If that is good enough to ensure that we transform organic waste, farm waste for nuclear, why have they not shown the same commitment and off-farm waste into clean energy? to carbon capture, which could be at least as important for our future energy security and in meeting our low Edward Miliband: I am sorry to correct the hon. carbon commitments? Gentleman on one point. I believe the Ambridge project did not go ahead. I may be wrong, but I believe it did not get planning permission, no doubt from a Liberal Edward Miliband: I wonder where the hon. Gentleman council. has been for the past three months, given that I made a statement to the House in April and set out a consultation On the hon. Gentleman’s serious question, this is a document in June with the most environmentally ambitious priority, and it is important that Ofgem sees it as very standards for new coal-fired power stations and the much part of its duty to drive this forward. It has a duty most ambitious plans for the demonstration of carbon to future consumers in its remit. capture in coal-fired power stations. That will be taken Tim Farron: A meeting? forward with legislation going through this House. Unlike the Conservative proposals, ours are based not on funny Edward Miliband: I will come to the hon. Gentleman’s money but on actual costed plans that will be implemented. question about meeting him. I hope that the Conservatives will support them. Part of that duty to future consumers has to be to drive forward connection to the grid. I am sure that one Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): The opponents of our ministerial team will meet the hon. Gentleman of carbon capture recently said in an article that I read and his friends. that if we get this up and running only 25 per cent. of carbon would be taken out of clean coal. Is that a true Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I am statement or is it just them playing games? sure that my right hon. Friend is aware that a number of important wind farm developments are still facing a Edward Miliband: We should never underestimate the wait of 15 years or so to secure connections to the grid, ability of such people to play games. On the facts, we even though they are in the process of getting ready to have said that as a condition of building any new run. Will he talk to the National Grid Company about coal-fired power station, at least 25 per cent. of the its 2020 vision document, to ensure that it encompasses plant will have to be based on carbon capture and the most urgent possible strengthening of the grid so storage. There is a simple reason for that. Because it will that connections can proceed much quicker? cost significant amounts of money to build CCS plants, Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. we think it right to demonstrate capacity at that scale. I took powers in the Energy Act 2008 to take action if When the technology is commercially proven, which we companies, the grid and Ofgem could not sort out that hope will happen by 2020—that is the basis on which problem. If they do not do so quickly, that is exactly we are planning—plants will have to be 100 per cent. what I will do. We have to speed up grid connection, CCS-based. That is the most environmentally ambitious and it has to be seen as a central part of what Ofgem, set of conditions for new coal-fired power stations of the regulator, does under its duty to consumers present any country in the world. and future.

Renewable Energy Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) (LD): Given the Government’s regular warm words of commitment to the renewable sector in general, not 10. Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): If least yesterday, and given that there is 25 per cent. he will take steps to ensure that energy from renewable growth a year in wind energy worldwide—we are clearly sources is given priority access to the national grid. the best European country for wind energy—why is [285160] there no industrial or manufacturing strategy to ensure that we produce the jobs to support the industry’s The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change development and give us the green road out of recession (Edward Miliband): All generators should be given a that the Prime Minister and Ministers regularly say grid connection consistent with their development plans. we need? We do not believe that the progress on that has been speedy enough, and we are determined to do more to Edward Miliband: There absolutely is an industrial make that happen, building on the recent agreement strategy on that; my right hon. Friend the Chancellor between Ofgem and the National Grid for an extra allocated £405 million in the Budget for precisely that 450 MW of grid capacity, which will speed up connection purpose. As for wind generation, last year we saw a for a range of projects by up to seven years. 29 per cent. increase in the UK in onshore wind generation and a 67 per cent. increase in offshore wind generation, making us the world leader in the latter. Of course there Tim Farron: I thank the Secretary of State for his is more to do, and we are determined to do it. answer. There are 2,500 anaerobic digesters connected to the German national grid and only 35 in this country— CO2 Emissions Targets (Skills) 36 if we count Ambridge. I can assure him that farmers in south Cumbria are very keen to help the Government 11. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): to make up that embarrassing deficit, and want to What discussions he has had with the Secretary of create Westmorland’s first anaerobic digester. Will he State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the skills 1123 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1124 required from the work force in order to meet targets Phil Wilson: My constituency covers the Tees valley for reduction in carbon dioxide emissions. [285161] plain, which, according to an independent report, can cater for between only 20 and 25 wind turbines, but The Minister of State, Department of Energy and 62 are planned and proposed. Does my hon. Friend Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): Ministers and officials agree that, while we all know the importance of making in DECC and the Department for Business, Innovation people aware of climate change, it is equally important and Skills have worked together to develop the to take people with us in solving the problem, rather Government’s low-carbon industrial strategy. It will set than swamping them with wind farms? County Durham out how Government will work with employers, unions has already passed its renewable threshold for wind and training and education providers to address key farms and is on course to meet its 2020 target soon. skills gaps in the transition to a low-carbon economy. Joan Ruddock: I congratulate my hon. Friend’s area This issue affects work forces throughout the UK. on its progress. Clearly, we must have developments that are sensitive to the landscape—that is a matter for the Mr. Cunningham: I thank my hon. Friend for that planning process. However, it is our responsibility as a answer, but can she say how much the Government are Government to help people understand the real need actually investing in the low-carbon industries and what for change in our production and use of energy, to the economic benefits will be? protect the environment and to secure energy supplies. We all need to understand that climate change is the Joan Ruddock: The Budget 2009 announced £1.4 billion greatest threat to our wildlife and our countryside. of new spending to support the low-carbon sector. That will contribute to a total of £10.4 billion of low-carbon Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Would and energy investment over the next three years. I do the Minister accept that, for many, especially those on not think you would allow me to read the whole list, low incomes and the elderly, the consequences of climate Mr. Speaker, but that includes £405 million for the change have meant merely higher energy prices than development and employment of low-carbon technologies, normal? Energy prices are so critical to the elderly and improved insulation for homes, low-cost loans for small those on low incomes, so could she and the Government and medium-sized enterprises, energy efficiency loans be a little more sensitive in introducing policies so that for public sector organisations and so on. There are the most vulnerable are not the worst affected? currently 880,000 people employed in the sector, and we Joan Ruddock: The most vulnerable need our help. expect that number to grow. The help is there and we will continue to keep constantly under review the impact of our renewable energy Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Minister will be programmes on bills. However, there is no way that we aware of the recent report by the Select Committee on can have lower energy prices and high fossil fuel use in Energy and Climate Change on the UK oil and gas the future. It is destroying the planet and we have to industry, and the point that it made about the transfer make a change. We will make the change and do it in a of skills from that industry to offshore renewables. In way that is fair. particular, the technology for offshore wind is very different from that for onshore wind. What will the Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): I Government do to encourage the use of facilities in the have spent the past three and a half years campaigning UK to build offshore wind turbines and create an on adaptation to climate change. I am delighted to say industry here? that the string of Government announcements in the past six months shows that the Government have finally Joan Ruddock: The way in which we will undertake got it. By approximately what date will the adaptation that will be more obvious to the hon. Gentleman when sub-committee of the Committee on Climate Change the low-carbon industrial strategy and the skills strategy produce its first report? that goes with it are published. We are, of course, Joan Ruddock: My hon. Friend, who has done so working intensely with the industry. The oil industry much on adaptation, has caught me out. I will have to has a remarkable record of innovation and skills, and if write to him to tell him exactly when the report is we can have those skills deployed in other sectors for a expected. He knows that we have recently appointed the low-carbon economy, that will give a great boost to the chair of the sub-committee, who will join the independent way in which this country can progress into that economy. Committee on Climate Change. I am sure that they will get on with their work as quickly as possible and I will write to him with the details when I receive them. Climate Change (Public Awareness) Low-carbon Economy (Employment Opportunities) 12. Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): What steps he is 13. Tony Lloyd (Manchester, Central) (Lab): What taking to increase the level of awareness among the recent discussions he has had with ministerial public of the consequences of climate change. [285162] colleagues on the opportunities for employment in a low-carbon economy; and if he will make a statement. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and [285163] Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): The Department takes steps to raise awareness of climate change through The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change ministerial speeches, publications—such as the climate (Edward Miliband): I have frequent discussions with impact study and “The Road to Copenhagen”—the colleagues, including the First Secretary of State, about departmental website and the Act on C02 campaign. building a low-carbon economy. We will shortly make 1125 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1126 announcements about allocations from the £405 million The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor made available (Edward Miliband): My Department has responsibility in the Budget to help build our green manufacturing for international negotiations on climate change. Last strength. month, we published our manifesto for the Copenhagen climate talks, which are due to conclude in December. Tony Lloyd: My right hon. Friend has already made it Yesterday’s decision by the G8 leaders to unite around clear in other answers how exciting the prospects are for the scientific consensus that we must avoid temperature the green revolution, which will create wealth and jobs. increases of more than 2° was a welcome step towards Given that public sector money will not be the most shaping an ambitious Copenhagen deal. We hope that abundant resource available, what can be done to ensure that will be reflected in an agreement today by the that we mobilise those at the cutting edge of the industrial developed and the developing countries. revolution, and not simply have a scattergun approach, which will lead to the sort of waste that we cannot Sir Robert Smith: Earlier, the Secretary of State referred afford? to trials being undertaken by his Department to tackle fuel poverty for those not on the gas grid. Given the Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend asks the right Prime Minister’s warning this week that we are again question. We must make the best use of the available facing rising oil prices, what reassurance can the Secretary money—I referred to the allocation that my right hon. of State give to my constituents and to those in the rest Friend the Chancellor made in the Budget. When we of the country that they will be able to heat their homes fund carbon capture and storage demonstration projects, effectively this winter if they rely on oil? it is important that our consultation documents reflect Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman has raised an that, and that we build a network of CCS throughout important issue. The volatility of the oil price is a the country to ensure that we have the sort of clusters problem for consumers in Britain and for our economy. that will build the industries of the future. It is right to It is hard to take steps to stabilise it, but there are invest now—the Conservative party would not agree regulatory and other measures that we need to look at. I with that—because that will build the industries of would say to his constituents and to others who are off the future. the gas grid that, first, we need to ensure that they get Electricity Generation (Coal) the best deal on electricity prices, and I am pleased that the regulator has taken action on that. Secondly, we need to help them to connect to the gas grid when they 19. Mrs. Siân C. James (Swansea, East) (Lab): What can. Finally, we also need to offer them alternative his policy is on the use of coal in electricity generation; technologies, and that is the kind of action that we are and if he will make a statement. [285169] piloting.

The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change T2. [285177] Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and (Edward Miliband): Coal power stations play a vital role Leith) (Lab/Co-op): Will my right hon. Friend give the in providing reliable and affordable electricity supplies. House an update on the progress made yesterday and The Government believe that new coal power stations overnight at L’Aquila on climate change? in the UK will be important in retaining the diversity and security of our energy supplies, but only if they can Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend will be pleased to be built and operated in a way that is consistent with hear about the G8 communiqué. This is the first time our climate change goals. that the world has signed up to a 2° objective. The key issue for today, which is most important, is to get unity Mrs. James: In 2008, we were 31 per cent. dependent between the developed and the developing countries on coal for our electricity supplies in this country. It has around that 2° objective. Why is that important? Because been, and remains, a valuable source of fuel. I am it will drive the action that countries need to take. pleased that the Secretary of State recognises that, but Frankly, we need more ambition in the run-up to we must not underestimate the role that coal—particularly Copenhagen, but a 2° agreement will drive that action. carbon-abated coal—has to play in the future mix of renewables, coal, gas and nuclear. Coal needs to play an T3. [285178] Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): There are important role. 7,000 zero-carbon dwellings across Europe that meet the passive house standard, yet only one of them is in the UK. Does not that show that the Government’s Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend speaks very policy on carbon reduction is just empty rhetoric? knowledgably about this subject as a result of her background. It is important that we have coal as part of Edward Miliband: No, because we have rightly said the energy mix. The problem in this debate arises when that we are going to have zero-carbon homes here from we try to pick and choose from the low-carbon technologies 2016. It is right to set that standard—we are one of the that are available; the truth is that we need all of them. few countries to have done so—and it will apply to We need clean coal, renewables and nuclear, as she has every new house. We are also taking action to trial the pointed out. All of them must play a part in overcoming new technologies to which the hon. Gentleman refers, the enormous challenge of tackling climate change. and we will have more to say about that in the coming months. Topical Questions T4. [285179] Mrs. Siân C. James (Swansea, East) T1. [285176] Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire (Lab): Will the Minister please give me an update on and Kincardine) (LD): If he will make a statement on the community energy saving programme, particularly his departmental responsibilities. in constituencies such as my own in Wales? 1127 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1128

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Edward Miliband: I was very pleased that the street Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): CESP places an obligation won the competition after my visit—although I should on the energy suppliers and the energy generators. It say that I cannot claim cause and effect. The competition will provide for about £350 million of energy-saving was very informative in showing what communities can measures specifically directed at low-income areas. There do together to save energy and there was huge enthusiasm are 284 eligible areas in Wales, a substantial number of in that street for the initiative and what it had been able which are in my hon. Friend’s constituency.I am concerned to achieve. I agree that we need to roll out that sort of that we should have a proper balance encompassing the project more widely. That is what CESP is all about: a rural areas and I hope that there will be projects in street-by-street, house-by-house approach to bring Wales. This will be a new type of programme, whereby communities together to tackle carbon emissions. we will go house to house and take whole-house measures, amounting to a real step forward in terms of a proper T7. [285183] Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I community-based energy efficiency programme. am sure that the Secretary of State is aware of the tremendous opportunities to exploit the coal reserves Willie Rennie (Dunfermline and West Fife) (LD): on the north-east coast, particularly by using the Considering that the carbon capture competition has underground gasification method. Will he support the already slipped by one year, what guarantees can the moves and request by the north-east to set up a Secretary of State give that there will be no further strategic environmental assessment as a matter of delays in the process, especially considering that only urgency? one bidder is capable of getting to the 2020 deadline? Will he guarantee that the deadline will be met by next Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend’s question follows year—before the general election? up on an interesting visit I made to his constituency to meet the wide range of representatives that he gathered Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman is not right to to discuss underground coal gasification technology. say that only one bidder is capable of meeting the 2020 We want to move forward on that, so we will obviously deadline. Three consortiums are involved—ENR, RWE come back to his group in order to do so. and Scottish Power, I believe—and all can meet the timetable. It is right that we need to get on with it, which Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): The Secretary is why we announced the new conditions and why we of State rightly congratulated the G8 on its 2° target as announced the levy mechanism for which we intend to a limit on global warming, although to do otherwise legislate. I am confident that speedy progress can be would be to invite inevitable catastrophe, but will he tell made. us what that translates into in terms of the more important measure of the atmospheric concentration of CO2 in T5. [285180] Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) parts per million—or was that question too tricky for (Lab): Liquefied petroleum gas is a vital heating source the leaders of the world? in parts of my constituency, but in some ways it is a forgotten fuel in terms of regulation. While Edward Miliband: It translates into the target aim of acknowledging the changes to regulations on estate 450 parts per million. I was talking about this to John infrastructure for distribution, which will come into Holdren, the chief scientist of the US, yesterday. Now force later this year, what more can be done better to that we have this 2° target, the key task for developed regulate this market so that my constituents get a more and developing countries from here on up to Copenhagen competitive deal? is to say what the pathway is—including the mid-term targets we need for 2020—towards meeting that challenge. Joan Ruddock: My hon. Friend has put his finger on Now that the leaders have agreed to the objective, at a really difficult problem. We have looked very carefully least at the G8, we now need a 2° deal out of Copenhagen. at this market, and the truth is that it is made up of a very significant number of small companies and Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): Yesterday the competition is a matter for the market itself. I agree the Energy and Climate Change Committee was told that a issue is crucial for people who are utterly dependent on 500 kW tidal turbine would shortly come on-stream at LPG and we will continue to keep it under review. It the European Marine Energy Centre in Orkney as a may be, however, that we have to introduce new technology result of co-operation between a small innovative company to these homes through our fuel poverty programmes so in Bristol, Tidal Generation Ltd, and Rolls-Royce in my that in due course they are no longer dependent on that neighbouring area. What can the Government do to fuel, particularly if we cannot find a means of reducing encourage such co-operation, and to help small innovative its cost to the householder, which I acknowledge is companies involved in marine energy to bring their significant. ideas to market and overcome the financial difficulties that they experience in trying to obtain support? Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): I was delighted that the Secretary of State visited Green lane Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend is right to congratulate in Cookridge in my constituency in connection with the the parties concerned on their initiative. The marine British gas green streets competition. Will he join me in deployment fund is intended to encourage precisely that publicly congratulating the street’s residents who won form of technology. I believe that marine energy has the competition by decreasing their usage by 35 per great potential for Britain. Government must play a cent. What lessons can the Government learn from that strategic role—I have mentioned the low-carbon industrial excellent initiative in order to roll out something that fund—to encourage the kind of co-operation that my will benefit all households up and down the country? hon. Friend has described. 1129 Oral Answers9 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 1130

Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): If the Edward Miliband: The matter is the responsibility of Prime Minister is right and oil prices are going to rise my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for dramatically again in the immediate future, what action Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but I will undertake will the Secretary of State take to prevent British industry to discuss it with him. from becoming less competitive, and to prevent the most vulnerable from having to bear additional costs Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): which they cannot afford? The Secretary of State and the leaders of the world have defined dangerous climate change as a change of more Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman has raised an than 2°C in the average temperature. Can the Secretary important issue. We need to ensure that all the necessary of State confirm that the average temperature in Cornwall mechanisms are in place to prevent speculation on the is more than 2° higher than that in the north-east of oil price, so that changes are based on the fundamentals England? Will he assure people that if they move from rather than on speculation. That is why we are examining the north-east of England to Cornwall they will not the regulatory systems—for instance, through the suffer any great danger, and that any dangerous International Organisation of Securities Commissions, consequences— which is the international regulator. One of the arguments for the transition to low carbon Mr. Speaker: Order. I must say to the right hon. is that it will make us less dependent on fluctuations in Gentleman that the whole principle of topical questions the fossil fuel price. We need the right regulatory systems, is that they should be brief, and that only one question and we also need to undertake that low-carbon transition. should be asked.

Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): Yesterday Edward Miliband: For the second time today, I believe saw the publication of Oil and Gas UK’s annual economic that the right hon. Gentleman is slightly confused on report, which showed that oil and gas would play an this question. The point about rising temperatures across important part in the energy sector for the foreseeable the world is that it will drive temperatures up across future. Key to that are enhanced recovery and lengthening Britain, so moving from Cornwall to the north-east will the time for which reserves will be developed. How can not solve the problem. The right hon. Gentleman is one the Government help to ensure that the industry does of the few people in this House who does not seem to not shut up shop and go elsewhere, but continues to take the problem of climate change as seriously as I develop the North sea? Will my right hon. Friend believe that he should. I am looking forward to meeting arrange to visit Aberdeen to observe the showcase of him to discuss this further. the offshore oil and gas industry, and also— Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): There is very poor availability of information to compare the Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that that will do. prices and performance of the different energy companies. A very nice lady from Centrica British Gas, Catherine Edward Miliband: My noble Friend Lord Hunt greatly May, told me it leads the way in implementing the enjoyed his visit to Aberdeen. I pay tribute to my hon. Government’s scheme for insulation in the homes of the Friend’s championing of the oil and gas industry. The elderly, but it has halted the processing of new applications initiative taken by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and other companies do not do anything at all. When in the Budget in relation to the new field allowance was will we see a proper comparison of the prices and designed to bring about investment in the North sea, performance of the different energy companies? but—through the PILOT group, with which my hon. Friend is importantly involved—we also want to continue The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy our discussions with the industry about how we can and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): The whole best help it in future. point of the Ofgem probe was to get to the bottom of complaints about poor information to consumers from Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): May I stress to my right the energy companies, and a number of changes to hon. Friend the need to regulate the use of fluorine-based licence conditions will be made to try to remedy those gases, or F gases, in supermarket refrigeration units? problems. As regards the commitment of individual They are up to 20 times more potent than carbon companies to the carbon emissions reduction target— dioxide in terms of global warming. The industry itself CERT—which was, I think, the other point my hon. is asking the Government to regulate to create a level Friend was making, we are conscious that we need the playing field. May I urge the Secretary of State to information from each of the energy companies in discuss such action with his opposite numbers, so that it order to make that assessment, and I will be talking to can be expedited as soon as possible? them about that. 1131 9 JULY 2009 Newspapers (Surveillance Methods) 1132

Newspapers (Surveillance Methods) Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con): There is no doubt that the story that appeared in this morning’s newspaper raised questions. We rightly cherish the freedom 11.31 am of the press in this country, but it is vital that that Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD) freedom is not abused. Journalists do, of course, need (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for the to be able to pursue stories that are in the public interest Home Department if he will make a statement on the and to do their job free from interference, but they are steps he is taking to look into the actions of the police, also obliged both to obey the law and to conform to the the prosecutors and the Information Commissioner in Press Complaints Commission code, which sets the respect of the use by newspapers of illegal surveillance standards for their industry. methods. I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation about the Metropolitan police statement that is due The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism later today, and for assuring the House he will bring (Mr. David Hanson): I am grateful for the opportunity back further reports in due course. Does he agree that it to respond to the hon. Gentleman’s question. I should is important that everyone in this House gives a measured first of all inform the House that my right hon. Friend response on these issues and that we leave it to the the Home Secretary is today in Manchester at the police to decide whether there is any new information Association of Chief Police Officers conference and is that warrants further action? therefore unable to respond to the question himself. Mr. Hanson: With due respect to the hon. Gentleman, The original allegations date back to 2006, following it is not for me to give the reflections of the House as a which, as the House will be aware, there were convictions. whole; individual Members will make their judgments However, serious allegations have appeared in the and give their views in due course. I have simply said to newspapers this morning, which clearly go much wider the House that these are serious allegations that need than the original case. That is why I have spoken this examining, and the Metropolitan police will examine morning to the assistant commissioner, specialist operations, them. I have spoken to the Metropolitan police this John Yates, and why my right hon. Friend the Home morning, as has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Secretary has spoken to the Metropolitan Police State. We await their investigation and examination, Commissioner within the last hour. The Metropolitan which is ongoing as we speak. They will be making a police are urgently considering these allegations and statement shortly—this afternoon—and I shall report will be making a statement this afternoon. back in due course on its implications. I can do no It would be wrong for me in any way to pre-empt that more, because investigating these issues is an operational statement as this is first and foremost an operational matter for the police. matter for the Metropolitan police. However, I give an undertaking to the House that I will report back following Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): Of course everyone in the considerations by the Metropolitan police, when I this House will want to see investigations in the public can do so. interest, but investigations should not be undertaken merely to titillate the interests of the public. The public have a right to protection against illegal intrusion into Dr. Harris: I thank the Minister for that answer. Does their privacy, whether by the state or by private bodies he accept that I am not relaxed, that I do not think the such as newspapers. If, as is reported, more than 1,000 House is relaxed, and that neither are the public relaxed phone taps took place, it beggars belief that this involved in any way about fears not only of surveillance by the just one journalist or that senior executives did not Government, but now of surveillance by newspapers know what was happening—indeed, the allegation is and their agents? Will he further accept that we all want clearly that senior executives on this newspaper did to see healthy, responsible investigative journalism, especially know. I welcome what the Minister has said, but does in respect of public figures who wield power, but that it he not agree that it is extraordinary that the Leader of must be within the law and seen to be within the law, the Opposition, who wants to be a Prime Minister, and it would be extremely toxic for our democracy if employs Andy Coulson who, at best, was responsible vested interests were seen to be able to in some way buy for a newspaper that was out of control and, at worst, their way out of the criminal justice system? I would be was personally implicated in criminal activity? The exact grateful if the Minister could keep the House informed parallel is surely with Damian McBride. If the Prime of the actions he is taking. Minister was right to sack him, should not the Leader of the Opposition sack Andy Coulson? Mr. Hanson: As I have said, the allegations that have been made are serious and deserve examination, and Mr. Hanson: As I have said, the allegations relate to the Metropolitan police will this afternoon be examining criminal offences and the police are examining those them. I will report back to the House in due course. The matters as we speak. The hon. Gentleman will know hon. Gentleman will be aware of the law itself: unlawful that there is legislation providing for a criminal offence interception is an offence under the Regulation of to cover the allegations that have been made. I hope that Investigatory Powers Act 2000. Where an individual he will accept that I can only respond in that way at this intentionally intercepts a communication without lawful moment. authority, that is punishable with a fine or a prison sentence of up to two years. He will also know that in Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): The Minister will the case considered two years ago, punishments were recall that in evidence to my Select Committee’s inquiry given. I will have to reflect on what the Metropolitan into what happened to the hon. Member for Ashford police are looking at this afternoon, and as I have said, I (Damian Green), senior officers of the Metropolitan will report back to the House in due course. police told us that as a matter of practice whenever an 1133 Newspapers (Surveillance Methods)9 JULY 2009 Newspapers (Surveillance Methods) 1134

[Keith Vaz] Mr. Hanson: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has confirmed the Wilson doctrine. We will have to look investigation involved a high-profile person, politicians, at the issues and the investigations. I cannot give my including the Home Secretary and other politicians, hon. Friend an answer on the point now, but it will be a and the Metropolitan Police Authority, were informed. matter for the police investigation, and if there are Will the Minister confirm that no Minister has ever responsibilities for my right hon. Friend the Home been informed of any of these allegations until last Secretary, we will examine that. night? Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife) (LD): Since Mr. Hanson: My understanding is that the Metropolitan the Leader of the House is on the Treasury Bench, and police and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, since she has a responsibility to the House as a whole, like me, discovered these allegations on the production may we have an undertaking that consideration will be of the newspapers overnight and this morning. given as to whether any question of breach of privilege arises on this occasion? Mr. John Whittingdale (Maldon and East Chelmsford) (Con): The Minister will be aware that the fact that a private investigator had intercepted the telephone calls Mr. Hanson: The right hon. and learned Gentleman of a large number of people was well known at the time. will be aware that business questions follow these He will also be aware that the chairman of News proceedings. My right hon. and learned Friend the International gave a categoric assurance to my Select Leader of the House has indicated that she will consider Committee that no other journalist, beyond Clive those representations and will respond shortly. Goodman, had any involvement in or knowledge of that matter. Can the Minister say whether or not he is Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): aware of any evidence to contradict that statement? The hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon When my Select Committee reopens its inquiry, as it has (Dr. Harris) is right that this issue raises profound decided to do, will he ask the Metropolitan police to questions that go to the heart of our democracy. Even provide us with any information that they have that is though Statutory Instrument No. 1677 gives greater relevant to this case? resources to the Information Commissioner, may we be assured that he will have sufficient resources to undertake Mr. Hanson: The allegations came to light today, we his part of what will be a difficult investigation? are examining them with the Metropolitan police and I obviously concur with what the hon. Gentleman Mr. Hanson: As of this morning, my colleagues and I has said. have not had an opportunity to speak to the Information Commissioner or the Crown Prosecution Service, which Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): Should was mentioned in the original question from the hon. elected leaders be relaxed about a spin doctor responsible Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris). for bugging the heir to the throne? We will examine those issues shortly. Mr. Hanson: I hope that, again, my hon. Friend will Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): It was recognise that those are allegations, the Metropolitan my understanding that the inquiry into the bugging of police will examine them and I will report back following the members of the royal family hinged on an inside their investigation. employee of British Telecom giving out the numbers for celebrities and members of the royal household. Could David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): The the Minister give us some assurance that he is taking Minister cannot brush aside as an operational responsibility steps to ensure that telephone providers adhere to their something for which the Home Secretary has responsibility. data protection obligations so that we are all protected, The allegation in The Guardian is that none of the many as are other people? hundreds of people whose communications appear to have been intercepted were notified by the police that they were the victim of a crime. That is a matter for the Mr. Hanson: Again, as with the serious allegations Home Secretary, so can the Minister give an answer on that have been made today, any such activity would that point? constitute a potential criminal offence and would be investigated accordingly. Mr. Hanson: Again, the right hon. Gentleman will be aware that these allegations have come to light this Martin Salter (Reading, West) (Lab): I hope that you, morning. We are examining them, as are the Metropolitan Mr. Speaker, and the Minister will agree that this is an police, and I will report back to the House on the extremely serious matter and there are many avenues outcome of those examinations when I have an opportunity that the House and its Committees may wish to explore. to do so. I cannot give him any comment today on the For example, do Mr. Coulson and his employer, the allegations, given where we are on the time scale since Leader of the Opposition, stand by the comments that they became public. the former made to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee in March 2003 that it is acceptable to make Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) cash payments to police officers for private information? (Lab): Given the existence of the Wilson doctrine, may Why on earth did the Metropolitan police not properly we have an assurance that no one involved in the investigate and prosecute those who were working for surveillance of politicians has been given a parliamentary Mr. Coulson who tapped the phones of Cabinet Ministers, pass? Members of Parliament and other public figures? 1135 Newspapers (Surveillance Methods)9 JULY 2009 Newspapers (Surveillance Methods) 1136

Mr. Hanson: I am afraid that I will sound repetitive, that those people who have been the subject of hacking but the allegations that my hon. Friend makes are ones or tapping will now be notified of the fact that they that the Metropolitan police are examining as we speak, have been a victim? as part of their efforts to uncover the truth of the matter. It is not for me to comment on those operational Mr. Hanson: Again, I think that the first duty of the matters. Metropolitan police is to examine the issue. That is going on at the moment. There will be opportunities to Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): Many serious look at some of the other consequences in due course issues are raised by the allegations, and in Northern and, as I have said, I will report back to the House on Ireland we are familiar with questions about phone the matters outflowing from this allegation today. tapping. However, in every case—unless, obviously, it was a police operation—the target of such surveillance Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): Can was notified. May we have an assurance from the Minister my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will that the issue of why people were not notified that they remind the Metropolitan police and the Information were being surveyed in this way will come before the Commissioner that the defence of “in the public interest” House and that a full explanation will be given? relates to something that is in the interest of the public body and not something that satisfies the curiosity of Mr. Hanson: I am confident that that is precisely the the public? sort of issue on which we will reflect once we have discussed this matter further. Mr. Hanson: My hon. Friend has made a valid point. I am trying, given that we might have cases of criminal Geraldine Smith (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab): activity as a result of the investigation into these allegations, These allegations have serious implications for national not to comment too much on these issues. security. If Cabinet members and the Deputy Prime Minister had their phones tapped, what did the Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): Metropolitan police know? Were they aware of this, Whatever the operational decisions made by the and if so, why did they not tell the Deputy Prime Metropolitan police, will the Minister tell us what the Minister and other senior Cabinet Ministers? Government’s policy is on informing people that they have been the subject of illegal surveillance? Is it the Mr. Hanson: Again, the Metropolitan police Government’s view that the principle should always be commissioner and assistant commissioner are examining that those people should be notified? As a first step, will the issue at the moment to try to get to the truth of what he tell us in his statement later this evening how many occurred and the impact of those allegations. I await Members of Parliament and Ministers, according to the this afternoon’s statement with interest. information held by the Met, were targeted as a result of the operation? Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Can the Minister tell the House whether the Government are satisfied Mr. Hanson: Again, I will report back to the House with the measures that are in place to prevent illegal on these matters at an appropriate time. It might not be access to the police national computer? If, in the light of today, but we will look back on those issues in due these allegations, they are not satisfied, what will they course and I shall respond when the opportunity arises. do about that? Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): My right hon. Friend should be playing for England, so straight Mr. Hanson: I am confident that we have security of is his bat this morning. At 7 o’clock this morning, I saw the police national computer. As with intercept information, a hunched figure with a suit-bag and a mobile phone there are offences that would involve potential criminal crossing Speaker’s Yard. It was Mr. Andy Coulson. I action in the event of activity being undertaken in that thought that he was on the way out, having been fired. field. This is not now about him; it is about the judgment of the Leader of the Opposition in keeping him with a Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Has the Minister Commons pass. For the House of Commons— noticed the relaxed attitude of Opposition Front Benchers in relation to this matter, which contrasts with the Mr. Speaker: Order. A number of other Members are indignation that they showed when the police interfered standing whom I would like to try to get in. I must ask and intervened in the office of the hon. Member for the right hon. Gentleman for a question. Ashford (Damian Green)? Is it because they have something to hide, and is it because they are trying to hide Mr. Andy Mr. MacShane: Does my right hon. Friend agree that Coulson, who should be getting the sack? this is not a matter for a Metropolitan police statement this afternoon, and that the House of Commons must Mr. Hanson: My hon. Friend makes his points in his decide to set up its own inquiry to hear evidence under usual inimitable style, and I am sure the House will have oath from all concerned—from the employees of this noted them. foreign national, who so instructed them, and from the police officers—to get to the bottom of this matter? Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): The allegations are that the phone tapping and hacking were widespread Mr. Hanson: If the House of Commons wishes to and that the people who were on the receiving end were look at those matters, that will be a matter for you, not notified. Will the Minister now assure the House Mr. Speaker, and for the Leader of the House. 1137 Newspapers (Surveillance Methods)9 JULY 2009 Newspapers (Surveillance Methods) 1138

Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): It seemed that aspects of the matter. Will the Minister use this opportunity the Minister was saying earlier that the Metropolitan to re-examine the measures in place to make sure that police only heard about these allegations in the newspaper the integrity of the PNC is maintained? today. However, the Metropolitan police were the people who decided not to proceed. Who in the Metropolitan Mr. Hanson: Self-evidently, the integrity of the PNC police decided not to take this matter further? Was it the is a matter of high importance for the Government. We last commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, or the deputy commissioner, will take all steps to ensure that it remains secure. In the or was the decision made lower down the food chain? light of the allegations, I shall be looking at whether further steps need to be taken. Mr. Hanson: Again, the purpose of the Metropolitan police’s examination of this issue following my discussions Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): Given Mr. Coulson’s with Mr. John Yates and my right hon. Friend the dubious reputation, none of us on this side of the Secretary of State’s discussions with the commissioner House can feel comfortable while he is around to wander is to establish the facts of this case. These allegations the corridors here. While he is under suspicion, can we appeared overnight and this morning and they are now not at least take his pass away from him? being investigated. Mr. Hanson: Those issues are not for the Government. They are for the House authorities. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): It is quite clear from the revelations in the newspapers this morning that there Richard Younger-Ross (Teignbridge) (LD): In response are also questions about the role of the Press Complaints to an earlier question, the Minister said that the offence Commission, which seems to have failed completely in could be punishable by a fine or imprisonment. Some its duty to protect the public and properly investigate cases of hacking are not punishable by imprisonment. I this matter. Criminal activity was clearly involved in believe that, in 2007, the Prime Minister was considering what it was investigating, but it failed to ask questions expanding the application of imprisonment for offences of the appropriate people to get the right answers. Will such as hacking into the Driver and Vehicle Licensing my right hon. Friend continue to investigate that issue, Agency, but dropped the proposal after receiving a too? delegation from News International. Will the Minister look at the matter again to make sure that such hacking Mr. Hanson: I will draw those comments to the notice is an imprisonable offence? of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, who has responsibility for Mr. Hanson: I am not aware of the circumstances these issues. that the hon. Gentleman has outlined. As he knows, offences without lawful authority under the Regulation Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): May I return to of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 are punishable with a the very serious allegation about illicit accessing of the fine or a prison sentence of up to two years. That police national computer? It is one of the more serious penalty was delivered in the case of two years ago. 1139 9 JULY 2009 Business of the House 1140

Business of the House letter as it could respond only to operational matters. Does the right hon. and learned Lady agree that it is 11.51 am highly disrespectful to this House, and perhaps also incompetent, for Ministers to delegate correspondence Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): May I ask in this way? Will she endeavour to inform the Secretary the Leader of the House to give us the forthcoming of State for Work and Pensions that, when a Member parliamentary business? writes to a Minister, it is the Minister who should reply? The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet May we also have a statement from the Work and Harman): The business for next week will be as follows: Pensions Secretary on the abject failure of the Government’s flagship welfare reform policy, Pathways to Work? This MONDAY 13 JULY—Consideration of a carry-over motion scheme was established—at a cost of £129 million this for the Political Parties and Elections Bill, followed by year alone—to help people get off incapacity benefit consideration of Lords amendments to the Political and find employment. However, statistics released by Parties and Elections Bill. the Department yesterday show that fewer than one in TUESDAY 14 JULY—Remaining stages of the Borders, 10 people who have started on the programme have Citizenship and Immigration Bill [Lords]. actually managed to find work. How on earth do the WEDNESDAY 15 JULY—Opposition day [16th allotted Government plan to deal with the grim rise in day]. There will be a debate on NHS dentistry, followed unemployment that we are facing, and which has been by a debate on caring for elderly. Both debates will arise caused by the recession, when the track record of what on an Opposition motion. they have tried to do already seems such a dismal THURSDAY 16 JULY—Topical debate: subject to be failure? announced followed by a general debate on preparation May we also have a debate on the Government’s for the climate change conference in Copenhagen. strategy for reducing the alarming rate of teenage The provisional business for the week commencing pregnancies? Yesterday, it was revealed that young people 20 July will include: who took part in a £5 million Government scheme that MONDAY 20 JULY—Second Reading of the Child Poverty aimed to help tackle the problem by encouraging 13 to Bill, followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords 15-year-olds to talk to each other about sex were twice amendments. as likely to become pregnant than a similar group. That is a sad indictment of the Government’s failure to TUESDAY 21 JULY—If necessary, consideration of Lords amendments, followed by motion on the summer recess develop a coherent strategy. The fact is that Britain has Adjournment, followed by, if necessary, consideration the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe: more of Lords amendments. and more young girls are seeking an abortion, and the higher rate of sexual activity is leading to an alarming The provisional business for the week commencing increase in sexually transmitted infections among teenagers. 12 October will include: May we have a full day’s debate on this serious national MONDAY 12 OCTOBER—Remaining stages of the Health issue so that we can help to develop a much more Bill [Lords]. thoughtful response to the underlying problems and TUESDAY 13 OCTOBER—Remaining stages of the Local encourage young people to be more careful with their Democracy, Economic Development and Construction body and their life? Bill [Lords]. May I once again seek from the Leader of the House WEDNESDAY 14 OCTOBER—Opposition day [17th allotted the guarantee that I have not yet received, even though I day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. have asked for it many times, that the House will be Subject to be announced. comprehensively updated on how the Government intends THURSDAY 15 OCTOBER—General debate on defence to compensate those who lost out from the collapse of policy. Equitable Life? We need that before we rise for the summer. Her response at Question Time yesterday to FRIDAY 16 OCTOBER—Private Members’ Bills. my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham Alan Duncan: I thank the Leader of the House for (Daniel Kawczynski) revealed a perhaps wilful, giving us the business. Last week, I raised the issue of misunderstanding of the difference between proper the length of time that the Treasury has taken to respond compensation and ex gratia payments. They are not the to some MPs’ correspondence. We should perhaps be same thing, and the ombudsman called for compensation. grateful that it replies at all. May I ask the right hon. The right hon. and learned Lady will note that and learned Lady for a further statement on what 307 Members have now signed EDM 1423. appears to have become common practice in the [That this House notes the Parliamentary Ombudsman Department of Work and Pensions? Ministers there are has taken the unusual step of using powers under the 1967 passing MPs’ correspondence to their various agencies Act to present Parliament with a further and final report for a response, even when the matter concerns Government on Equitable Life; also notes that the Public Administration policy. Select Committee’s second report on Equitable Life, Justice If the issue is administrative, of course it is right for denied? concluded that the Government response to the the relevant body to reply, but I am aware of a number Parliamentary Ombudsman’s report was inadequate as a of cases in which a Member has sought clarification remedy for injustice; recognises the vital role the Ombudsman from a Minister on departmental policy, only to receive plays in public life; reaffirms the duty of Parliament to a totally inadequate response. Yet that response did not support the office of the Ombudsman; believes the Government come from the Minister, who had passed the buck to the should accept the recommendations of the Ombudsman Child Support Agency, and the CSA then in turn stated on compensating policyholders who have suffered loss; that it was unable to comment on the issues raised in the welcomes the formation of the All-Party Group on Justice 1141 Business of the House9 JULY 2009 Business of the House 1142

[Alan Duncan] The hon. Gentleman was talking about a pilot scheme—an experiment that was tried out. The whole for Equitable Life Policyholders; and notes with regret its point of a pilot scheme is to find out whether something necessary formation and the fact that over 30,000 people works. There is no dishonour in piloting something to have already died waiting for a just resolution to this saga.] see whether it works, and if it does not work, acknowledging Given the scale of the concern about the Government’s that while pressing forward to try to find out what does reaction to the ombudsman’s report and her subsequent work. If there was a magic answer to the question of damning second report, will the Leader of the House teenage pregnancy, it would have been found before confirm that the matter has been discussed at Cabinet now. level? Will she give us an assurance today that the On the question about Equitable Life, there is absolutely House will have an opportunity to cross-examine the no need for the hon. Gentleman to patronise me over Chief Secretary to the Treasury next week? She keeps not knowing the difference between ex gratia payments declining to confirm whether the promised statement and compensation. I do indeed know the difference. will be an oral or a written one. The House requires an The Government’s position is that there is not a legal oral statement, and will she now give an absolute guarantee obligation to pay compensation, but there is a moral that that is what it will be? obligation to make ex gratia payments, and that is what Sir John Chadwick is working on. I have said there will Ms Harman: In respect of Treasury Ministers’ responses be a statement before the House rises; there will be to letters from hon. Members, this issue has been followed Treasury questions next week, so the hon. Gentleman up. I am not yet in a position to reply to the hon. will have the opportunity to ask the Chancellor in Gentleman on the situation, but I will make sure that I person during oral questions next week. come to the House next Thursday with all the facts and figures about the response time. Of course, there has Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Dealing been a great increase in the number of letters from hon. first with the urgent question we have just discussed, we Members to the Treasury, and that is a response to heard a deplorably weak performance from the shadow constituents’ concerns at this time of economic crisis. Home Secretary, and it was not mentioned at all by the However, that does not mean that people should have to hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan). wait longer—far from it: they should get a prompt reply As the question clearly raises potential issues of privilege, to the concerns and anxieties of their constituents. I will may I ask the right hon. and learned Lady to consider make sure that I have an up-to-date answer ready for those issues and report to the House? Will she also the House next Thursday. inquire of her Cabinet colleague, the Attorney-General, The shadow Leader of the House is absolutely right as to the prosecution policy that was adopted previously in what he said about ministerial responses and agencies. on the matter? Perhaps the Solicitor-General could Responses on policy are a matter for Ministers, and make a statement to the House. should not be delegated for explanation by an agency. A useful innovation recently was for notice to be Agencies have to account for their administration of given to the House when it was known that a statement policies, but they do not have to account for the policies was to be made by a Minister. Last week, two White themselves. That remains a matter for Ministers. If the Papers were published and oral statements were made hon. Gentleman will give me some examples, that would to the House. One of the White Papers was about assist me in following the matter up on behalf of banking, where I accept that there may have been Members of the House. market-sensitive material, but the one on Monday was The hon. Gentleman talked about Pathways to Work. about international development and I cannot quite It is very important indeed that we help everybody who accept that it was not known last Thursday that a White wants to get into work to find their way back to the Paper was to be published on Monday. Will the Leader world of work. He will know that the pathways programme of the House look at the matter again and give Members deals with those who have the greatest problems. They of the House proper notice when a statement is to be may have had a problem of alcohol or drug abuse in made, particularly on the publication of a White Paper? their past. They may have mental illness problems or Will she also make good the promise of the Secretary of they may have been in prison. They may have a range of State for International Development that we will soon problems or a combination of them all. The pathways have a debate on international development issues? programme says that there is nobody we write off. We May we have a debate on the case of Gary McKinnon, do not say, “That’s it. You’re written off, you can’t ever the Asperger’s syndrome sufferer who is being cynically play your part in the world of work.”We should recognise handed over to the United States authorities, possibly that it is sometimes very difficult to help those people to serve 60 years in an American jail? The Home back into work and we will not have a 90 per cent. Secretary, somewhat disingenuously, says he cannot success rate, but that does not mean that it is not instruct prosecution. That is absolutely right, but what important for those programmes to go ahead and help he can do is stop the extradition and allow the circumstances people into work. in which that unfortunate gentleman could be tried in The hon. Gentleman is right that teenage pregnancy this country. Many of us felt that the one-sided extradition is a complex and difficult issue. We all agree that we treaty was a disgrace to Britain. This use of that disgraceful want to see a fall in the number of teenage pregnancies. treaty is a further disgrace and a shame, and I hope we That has to do with good sex education, contraception will have the opportunity to debate it. and girls having aspirations to something other than I support the view already expressed about Equitable early pregnancy. Their opportunities in life need to be Life. The right hon. and learned Lady is absolutely right more than that. The responsibility of boys is also to make the distinction between an ex gratia payment involved—mentioning that is often forgotten. and compensation, but she ignores the findings of the 1143 Business of the House9 JULY 2009 Business of the House 1144 ombudsman. The early-day motion tabled by my hon. there is a question of privilege. It certainly does raise Friend the Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable), which issues of grave concern. We are elected to represent our has attracted 307 signatures, shows the strength of constituents and, to do our duty in that respect, to hold feeling across the House. If we can get 16 more signatures, the Executive to account. We must not be impeded in there will be an absolute majority of Members who that work by interference through the interception of want something to be done. May we have a proper our communications. That would constitute contempt debate and an oral statement on the issue? of Parliament and a breach of parliamentary privilege, The House rises for the summer recess on 22 July. and it is something I shall have to consider. Will the Leader of the House ring round all the Government Several hon. Members rose— offices to make sure that we do not have what we have every year, which is a profusion—a plethora—of written Mr. Speaker: Order. Thirty-seven Members are seeking statements in the last days before the House rises, so to catch my eye and, as always, I am keen to get in as that people cannot examine the statements and ask many as possible, so I must ask each hon. Member to questions in the House? Last year, we had 63 written ask one brief supplementary question and, of course, I statements in the last two days. The worst offender, look to the Leader of the House, as always, to provide a incidentally, was the Prime Minister, with no fewer than pithy reply. 10 written statements on the last day. That is unacceptable. The Leader of the House has time at least to phase the Jessica Morden (Newport, East) (Lab): There was a statements over the next week. Will she do so? very short but excellent debate in Westminster Hall last week on the Government’s response to the Archer inquiry. Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman made further points Given the huge importance of the issue to those affected, about Equitable Life. I think 100 per cent. of Members may I join calls made by other Members for a much want justice for Equitable Life policyholders who have longer debate on the Floor of the House on that important lost out. We all agree with that, and a process is under issue? way to make sure that ex gratia payments are made. Ms Harman: I know that despite the increase in The hon. Gentleman talked about the custom and compensation for the victims of contaminated blood practice whereby loads of written ministerial statements supply, there is still a great deal of concern for people are put out in the final days. That is something that I am who have, unfortunately, been contaminated through already raising with ministerial colleagues, to encourage no fault of their own. I will bring my hon. Friend’s them not to leave things until the last moment. If every comments to the attention of Ministers in the Department Department does that, the difficulty is that there is an of Health. unmanageable amount of statements for colleagues to respond to. I shall remind all colleagues that the matter Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): One of my local papers, has already been raised by the House and that this time the Keighley News, recently reported that a judge who we have to try to break the habit of a lifetime—of had sentenced people involved in gang violence to prison tipping them all out before the summer recess. I will do had complained that he had to give “extraordinarily my best, and so will my deputy and the Chief Whip—[HON. lenient sentences” to those people MEMBERS: “Ah.”] So it is sure to be all right. “Because he was hidebound by the law”. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) He went on to criticise a system in which people who mentioned the case of Gary McKinnon. As I understand have spent time on bail subject to a curfew receive a it, the matter is not for the Home Secretary’s decision; it reduction in sentence. Given that judges are complaining was for decision by the courts, which have decided that about the lenient sentences being handed out, may we this man should be extradited. It is not at the discretion have a debate on the subject? It causes a great deal of of the Home Secretary, but a decision by the courts. concern in my constituency. The hon. Gentleman made the point that when a White Paper is to be produced there should be an Ms Harman: It is best if we leave the judges to get on indication to the House—perhaps the previous week—even with sentencing, which is their job, not ours, and the if the particular day was not specified, so that Members judges leave us to get on with legislating, which is our at least know that something is coming up. In order not job, not theirs. to give a date that then turns out to be wrong—because Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Will something else happens that moves the date a day or my right hon. and learned Friend reflect, with her two, and everybody says, “Aha, something’s gone colleagues, on the mechanisms to be used to inform the wrong”—we have been deterred from announcing oral House and me, the constituency MP, when it is known statements in advance, but actually the outcome is how the Serious Fraud Office intends to proceed with perverse. We are planning something and we know the MG Rover inquiry? Will she confirm today that it about it within a day or so, but we do not inform the remains the Government’s intention to publish the inquiry House. When we come back, I think that perhaps for an report as soon as possible, and that the Government experimental period, we will try to give a business will do everything that they can to ensure that the statement indicating when oral statements about major former workers of MG Rover receive the money that is documents are likely to be coming up. That is a good their due from the trust fund that has been set up? suggestion. On the question about the revelations in The Guardian, Ms Harman: The Government agree very much with the hon. Gentleman will have heard the responses given my hon. Friend that those who are owed money should by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, be paid as quickly as possible by the trust; my hon. Crime and Counter-Terrorism to the urgent question. A Friend has championed his constituents in that regard. number of Members have already raised with me whether As far as the publication of the report is concerned, as 1145 Business of the House9 JULY 2009 Business of the House 1146

[Ms Harman] Ms Harman: Everyone—all Members of the House—are concerned that there should be justice for the Equitable he said, the Department for Business, Innovation and Life policyholders. There has been a debate on the Skills has referred the question of whether there should subject in Westminster Hall and a statement in this be a criminal investigation to the Serious Fraud Office. House. We all agree that the policyholders should receive The SFO has undertaken to decide whether the matter ex gratia payments, and the Government are setting warrants a full investigation within, I think, 20 days of about enabling that to take place. the matter being referred to it. If there is not to be any further criminal investigation, the report will be published. Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): The House Obviously, if there is to be a criminal investigation, will be grateful for the statement made by the Minister nothing must be done that would prejudice it, but the for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism on the serious report will be published once any criminal investigations allegations made against News Group Newspapers today. have been concluded. I remind the Leader of the House that the allegations are serious. There are allegations of hacking into Cabinet Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): May we have a Ministers’ private telephone numbers and the numbers debate on the effectiveness of Jobcentre Plus in helping of Members of Parliament from three major parties, people to get back into work? In 2002, my London and allegations that a parliamentary Select Committee borough of Wandsworth had five jobcentres; now we was misled. Given all those serious breaches of our have just one. Local people are concerned about the privileges and sovereignty, I invite my right hon. and resource ability of Jobcentre Plus to give them meaningful learned Friend to lay a motion before the House next help to find employment again. May we have a topical week, referring those matters to the Standards and debate on that? Privileges Committee. Ms Harman: Those are issues of grave concern. It is Ms Harman: I would like to pay tribute to those who absolutely fundamental that once we are elected to this work in jobcentres and Jobcentre Plus. They do an House, we are able to get on with our job without let or incredibly important job. The service has been transformed hindrance. Certainly, if unlawful interception of telephone from what it was during the last recession, when people communications, voicemails and texts had taken place, sat behind grilles and paid out unemployment benefit, it would be contempt of Parliament and a breach of or signed people off on to incapacity benefit, but did parliamentary privilege. Those matters are of grave not help them to get back into work. There is a whole concern, and I will certainly consider what issues have range of work and training now available to people who arisen and what would be the appropriate action for me face the awful fact of unemployment. I hope that the to propose to the House. hon. Lady will support the extra investment that we put into Jobcentre Plus to make sure that it can work even Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): better on behalf of those who face unemployment. Transport bosses from Manchester are meeting the Minister with responsibility for rail later this afternoon Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): to discuss their concerns about the Government reneging May we have a debate on health and safety for those on their promises on the number of railway carriages employed in the construction industry? My right hon. for Greater Manchester. May we have an oral statement and learned Friend will be aware of a report recently to the House to assure hon. Members about the number produced by the Department for Work and Pensions on of railway carriages that we are getting, and about when the issue. Its author, Rita Donaghy, a senior employment we will get them, so that we can start dealing with expert, made a number of recommendations, foremost congestion on our railways in Greater Manchester? among them the extension of the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004 to the construction industry. Will my right Ms Harman: I am assured by my hon. Friend the hon. and learned Friend assure the House that those Deputy Leader of the House, who represents a seat in recommendations will be given serious consideration? Greater Manchester, that there has been no reneging on any commitments on important transport infrastructure in Manchester. Ms Harman: The Rita Donaghy report is very important, and I should like to thank her for her work. The Mr. Elliot Morley (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Corus in Gangmasters Licensing Authority, which my hon. Friend Scunthorpe has today announced a further 360 job cuts. was instrumental in setting up, has ensured that workers That comes on top of 500 job cuts that were announced are not undercut by exploited labour and has protected recently. Given the severe impact on the steel industry in migrant labourers from being exploited. It has saved the Scunthorpe, and indeed nationally, will my right hon. taxpayer money by reducing the evasion of tax, and and learned Friend ask the Business Secretary to have above all, it has helped with health and safety. Rita urgent talks with Corus about its plans, to bring some Donaghy’s suggestion that the 2004 Act be extended to stability to the company? While I am grateful for the the construction industry is well worth considering. regional development agency taskforce, which is being sent into Corus to help staff, may we have a debate Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): Given that a about how we can use selective regional aid to help clear majority of those who can sign early-day motions areas such as mine, which are being hit so badly by the have signed the motion on Equitable Life, why does not global downturn in manufacturing? the Leader of the House simply list it as the subject of the topical debate next week? Or does she think that Ms Harman: My right hon. Friend makes important 307 Members of this House can be persistently and points on behalf of his constituents. There will be a consistently ignored? Minister from the Department for Business, Innovation 1147 Business of the House9 JULY 2009 Business of the House 1148 and Skills at the Dispatch Box later this afternoon, they will withdraw their objection and that the House responding to the topical debate on manufacturing in will have another chance next week to make sure that Britain. the motion goes through.

Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Con): May we have Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): I am sure my a debate on access for international observers to Gaza, right hon. and learned Friend is aware that the Ashes is in the light of the apprehension of a boat in Gazan taking place in Cardiff for the first time ever. Does she waters recently? agree that this is a good move? When may we have a debate about spreading major sporting events around Ms Harman: I will raise the matter that the right hon. the UK? Gentleman has brought to the attention of the House with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. Ms Harman: Cardiff has shown how, with the Welsh Assembly and great leadership by the First Minister of Wales, it can be made the centre of a range of international Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): events, and I am sure the Ashes will be very successful. Can the Leader of the House arrange for the Business Secretary to make a statement on the operation of the Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): guidelines on the recently passed amendment to the Will the statement on Equitable Life be in oral form? National Minimum Wage Act 1998? That amendment forbids the use of tips, gratuities, service charges and Ms Harman: I cannot say now whether there will be cover charges to pay the minimum wage. She will know, an oral or a written statement, but the Chancellor will because I gave her a copy, that it is almost the sixth be responding to oral questions next week. anniversary of my ten-minute Bill on the subject. My proposal resulted in a change to the law recently.Confusion has reigned since the regulations have been in place, Laura Moffatt (Crawley) (Lab): My right hon. Friend because it is not clear how one can prevent people from the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families taking and keeping payments made by customers, so rightly reviewed the progress that Haringey council had can the guidelines be published soon, as the regulations made in improving children’s services following the will come into force in October— terrible killing of baby Peter, but there are eight authorities whose services were found wanting by Ofsted, including West Sussex county council. Will my right hon. and Mr. Speaker: Order. I think we have got the drift. learned Friend find time for us to debate these important matters on the Floor of the House? Ms Harman: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work that he has done, which began even before we Ms Harman: I will raise these matters with the Secretary came into government and brought into effect a statutory of State for Children, Schools and Families and look national minimum wage. I congratulate him on his for an opportunity for further accounting to the House. private Member’s Bill, which he introduced in 2003 and My hon. Friend will know that the Secretary of State is which amended the national minimum wage in respect today taking part in a programme of encouraging more of tips. We are very proud that we introduced the highly qualified people to go into the important job of national minimum wage. It has helped millions of people. social work so that whether for old people, people with Secondary legislation will go through Parliament to mental health problems or, above all, children, there are address the points that he has been raising, including in proper social services to take care of them. his Bill, and there will be consultation. Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): An unsuccessful Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Sadly, independent candidate at the recent local elections in the motion on the setting up of a Select Committee for Cornwall has accused the Conservative party of targeting the reform of the House did not go through last night. the second-home vote in particular at elections. If that It is therefore future business. In order to facilitate the were true, the Conservative party would be acting entirely passage of a measure that the Leader of the House legally in doing so because those people are on the clearly wants, will she give me an assurance that she electoral register, but it has stimulated a debate locally would look very sympathetically at the transfer of the about whether it is right for people with multiple houses drawing up of Standing Orders from the Executive of around the country to have votes in different places. the day to the House of Commons as a whole? That Will there be an opportunity for the House to debate would provide the House of Commons with the that? independence and integrity that it deserves. Ms Harman: The Political Parties and Elections Bill Ms Harman: I did commit to bringing a motion to is going through Parliament. It has just gone through the House to establish a Committee that could look at a the House of Lords and will come back to the Commons number of important issues to strengthen the role of following the debate on amendments in the other place. the House, including the way in which we select Chairs I am not yet clear whether there would be an opportunity of Select Committees and the role of the House in for that point to be raised when the Bill comes back to arranging the business of the House. I tabled a motion this House, but the hon. Gentleman can have a look to which was not regarded as broad enough. Having seen see whether there is one. the amendments, I withdrew the original motion and tabled one that incorporated the spirit of the amendments. Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Will my right Unfortunately, an hon. Member objected to it when it hon. and learned Friend find time for a topical debate was brought to the House last night, but I hope that on the success of the Freedom pass for pensioners? We 1149 Business of the House9 JULY 2009 Business of the House 1150

[Mr. Lindsay Hoyle] Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman will know that the Wilson doctrine stipulates that the work of hon. Members should be able to extend it to young people. People should not be impeded by any interception by way of spend a lot of money sending their children to school the security services. What my right hon. Friend the and college, and we are now coming to the summer Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism holidays, so can we introduce a Freedom pass for young said in response to the urgent question is that if there people? That would make an excellent subject for a was anything further to report, he would make sure that topical debate, which my right hon. and learned Friend he kept the House informed. I do not think he promised has promised in the past, but it has failed to reach to make an oral statement to update the House this the House. afternoon, but he will make sure that the House is kept informed if there is any further action or any outcome. Ms Harman: My hon. Friend is right: the Freedom pass has been incredibly important in providing Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): On Tuesday, opportunities for older people to be out and about all in response to a question from the hon. Member for over the country. It was led by the Government and we Blaby (Mr. Robathan), the Minister for Housing announced are extremely proud of it. The extension of such passes that he would make a statement on Pennbury and other to young people was made by Mayor Ken Livingstone proposed eco-towns before the summer recess. Given in London, and other authorities can no doubt consider that the Pennbury proposal will have a devastating doing the same. effect on my constituency and the regeneration of the city of Leicester, and indeed on the constituencies of Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The Leader of the the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan), House will be aware that the closing date for the consultation my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East on the Building Britain’s Future White Paper is (Keith Vaz) and many others, may we have an assurance 21 September so, rather perversely, we will clearly not that that statement will be made at such a time and in get the debate in the House as promised on page 113 of such a way that we can have a full debate on its content? that White Paper before the closure of the consultation period. However, is there not a broader point here? When the Government bring forward White Papers, Ms Harman: I will bring my hon. Friend’s comments their provisions are either otiose, in which case they are to the attention of the Housing Minister and make sure just ministerial window dressing, or they are significant. he realises that my hon. Friend’s comments are supported If White Papers have significant proposals, such as the by a number of Members across the House. Department for International Development White Paper earlier this week, it is right that we should have an Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): In the opportunity to debate them properly at some stage. Will light of the newspaper articles this morning about the Leader of the House give an undertaking that, Cabinet Ministers possibly having their phones tapped, following a reasonable period after the publication of a which shows that the Government are incompetent White Paper, the House will have the opportunity to even at protecting the Government and their people debate the proposals in that White Paper before we get from intercept, may we have a debate on information to the point when legislation is brought to the House? security which, as the Leader of the House knows, is the responsibility of the Cabinet, so that before we rise for Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. the recess we can hold the Government to account for There is an opportunity in the debate on 21 July on the the function of national security, in which they have motion on the summer recess Adjournment for hon. failed? Members to make contributions exactly to that effect. Ms Harman: On national security, accountability is Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle) (Lab): My right hon. and not only to Ministers but to the Intelligence and Security learned Friend will remember that at the last business Committee. The hon. Gentleman will have heard my questions I asked a question, and I shall ask it again right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, Crime and because we need clarity. Will the Leader of the House Counter-Terrorism informing the House of the actions arrange a debate on the issue of Secretaries of State in that the Metropolitan police are taking, when he responded the other place not being able to make statements to to the urgent question this morning. this House and not being answerable to this House? There is great concern among Members in this place that those Secretaries of State are not answerable to the Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): Gary House of Commons. McKinnon should be tried in the United Kingdom. He suffers from Asperger’s syndrome, and to remove him Ms Harman: I can say no more to my hon. Friend forcibly from the UK would be a brutal act. Does my than I said last week, which is that there are Ministers right hon. and learned Friend agree that people will from every Department accountable to hon. Members rightly be angry that one man involved in hacking is in this House. forcibly removed from this country, while another has a security pass to the parliamentary estate? Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The acting Prime Minister was quite right when she said it would Mr. Speaker: Order. May I just say to the Leader of be a contempt of Parliament for hon. Members’ phones the House that the hon. Gentleman has made his point to be tapped, so when the Minister for Policing, Crime and it is clearly on the record, but that the case is, I am and Counter-Terrorism makes a statement later, could advised, sub judice? I know that the Leader of the we have an assurance that no hon. Member’s phone has House will want to be very cautious about the way in been tapped by the Government since 1997? which she responds. 1151 Business of the House9 JULY 2009 Business of the House 1152

Ms Harman: The Extradition Act 2003 provides for Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): With discussions extradition to the United States in respect of a number on reform of the House under way, will the Leader of of serious offences. If the courts decide that there is a the House reflect on answers given during Work and case to answer, the case will go before the courts and be Pensions questions, showing that, between 1997 and considered on its evidence. There is also an appeal 2000, each page of primary legislation received 14 minutes mechanism. of scrutiny in this place, and the most recent figures, showing that that time has halved to seven minutes? Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): At the time of the May I suggest to her that if this place is to do its job most recent Health Questions, there had been only one properly, either we must have more time to scrutinise fatality from swine flu. Now, there have been seven legislation or we must introduce less but more effective deaths and thousands more cases have been brought to legislation? light. Given the dramatic escalation in the number of cases, and with the parliamentary recess almost upon Ms Harman: The balance between the scrutiny of us, will the Leader of the House agree to press the Government Bills and all other non-Bill debates, such Secretary of State for Health on the need for a further as Opposition day debates, debates chosen by the Liaison debate in Government time on the UK’s preparations Committee, general debates, topical debates and Budget for dealing with the swine flu epidemic? debates, will be considered by the Committee that I hope the House will set up next week, with my hon. Ms Harman: The Secretary of State for Health has Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) as kept the House regularly updated on action both to Chairman. The hon. Member for Billericay (Mr. Baron) protect people from swine flu and to work internationally raises an important matter, and senior Members are to tackle the pandemic. If any further announcements prepared to get on and look at it on behalf of the whole are to be made, he can make them while the House is House, so I hope that the friends of the hon. Member sitting. If the House is in recess, he will obviously make who last night objected to the Committee and prevented sure that all hon. Members are kept informed. its being set up, will prevail upon him. I suggest that to the hon. Member for Billericay, and I shall talk to him Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): In response to afterwards. two questions from hon. Members yesterday, the Leader of the House became the latest in a long list of Ministers Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Does my right hon. and to support the case for compensation for pleural plaque learned Friend agree that it is a strange legal system that sufferers. However, she did not answer the question allows an out-of-court settlement to gag somebody whether there would be a statement in the next two from giving information that may lead to a criminal weeks. Will there will be a statement in the next six days, investigation? Does she think it a matter worthy of before any more suffering takes place? further investigation? Mr. Gordon Taylor, who is head of the Professional Footballers Association, signed such Ms Harman: I am afraid I cannot give an exact a settlement with the News of the World, and he may answer to my hon. Friend, but I shall discuss the issue have been implicated in covering up criminal activity. further with the Justice Secretary. He may also have compromised his representation of the players whom he is paid to represent, because it has Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): Following now been revealed that the News of the World may have on directly from the issue that the hon. Member for investigated the private lives of some of those people, Blaydon (Mr. Anderson) raises, I think the House will too. Does my right hon. and learned Friend not think it be aware of the excellent statement made in Northern a curious situation and something worthy of examination Ireland, recommending a change in the law which would on the Floor of the House? overturn the House of Lords decision on compensation for pleural plaque sufferers. The law has already been Ms Harman: There are a number of issues of concern. changed in Scotland. Is it not time that we had a There are issues that concern the Press Complaints statement, before the summer recess, ensuring that there Commission and the operation of the press, which are is consistency throughout the country so that all sufferers the responsibility of the Department for Culture, Media can benefit from a change in the law and access and Sport. There is the issue of the potentially criminal compensation? actions, which is a matter for the police and, ultimately, Home Office accountability. Of course, the Minister for Ms Harman: I shall bring that point to the attention Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism answered an of the Justice Secretary. urgent question today.There are also the serious allegations of interference with hon. Members as we have gone Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It about our responsibilities to represent our constituents, is normal practice in many workplaces for an employee and that is a matter for the House. All those matters who is accused of a serious criminal offence to be must be looked into, and we must have clear answers. suspended from that workplace, irrespective of where the alleged offence took place. Is it therefore not appropriate Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): On Sunday, to have Mr. Coulson’s parliamentary pass withdrawn? there was an uprising in Urumqi, in the Xinjiang province of north-west China, and its suppression led to more Ms Harman: I think that there is an established than 150 people being killed and to more than 1,500 procedure, which the House authorities and the Speaker being detained. May we have a statement early next operate, for the consideration of any suggestions that a week about the action that the Government have taken House of Commons pass be withdrawn. on the issue? And may we have a guarantee that the 1153 Business of the House9 JULY 2009 Business of the House 1154

[Mr. Nigel Evans] Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): Will my right hon. and learned Friend approach the Secretary of Prime Minister will contact Hu Jintao, if he has not State for Health about the postcode lottery as regards already done so, to ensure the human rights of those drug treatment and the financing of individual health who are being detained? authorities? At the minute, it seems that one health authority has it and the other does not. It really is a Ms Harman: I know that the Foreign Secretary has dog’s dinner, and the Government need to look at joined other Foreign Secretaries and the United Nations the issue. in calling for the exercise of restraint so that there is a right to demonstrate and there are no more injuries, but Ms Harman: That is an important matter, but it is I shall ask the Foreign Secretary to write to the hon. one for the individual primary care trusts; my hon. Gentleman with further details. Friend will no doubt seek a discussion with his. If he is not satisfied with his PCT’s response, he should raise Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): May we the issue directly with Health Ministers. have a full-scale debate about the media in this country—not just about the Coulson illegal phone-tapping affair, but Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): As the Leader about BBC pay and pensions, which far exceed those of of the House will recall, some months ago I raised the Members, the vile bile that is written about Members matter of Bolsover district council’s need to replace and, paradoxically, the need to save local journalists’ 108 prefabricated bungalows, which were built after the jobs? May I put this question to the Government and end of the second world war. We had a meeting with the ask the Leader of the House about Government policy? previous Housing Minister, who has now gone. We need Self-regulation seems to have failed in the financial to debate the issue because Bolsover district council had sector and in Parliament; why, then, is it all right for been led to believe that if it did not own its own housing self-regulation to persist in the media? stock, but had an arm’s length management organisation, it would get the money from the Government to replace Ms Harman: I shall bring my hon. Friend’s comments those bungalows. Their foundations are rotting and we to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of need a debate on the issue. State for Culture, Media and Sport. More importantly, will the Leader of the House Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): The convey to the new Secretary of State for Communities Secretary of State for Health has so far ignored calls for and Local Government that we need him to meet Bolsover an inquiry into the NHS using independent sector council representatives, to ensure fair treatment between treatment centres, including calls from the family of councils that retain council stock and those that have Dr. John Hubley, who tragically and unnecessarily died gone over to ALMOs? at the Eccleshill treatment centre. May I say to the Leader of the House again—this is the second time—that Ms Harman: I shall ask the Minister for Housing to we need a debate? I cannot call for one, because I am my meet the hon. Gentleman and representatives of his party’s health spokesperson, but this is an important council, to sort out how the upgrading of that housing issue, and the NHS National Patient Safety Agency has should be dealt with. Perhaps some of the Building warned that such treatment should not go ahead without Britain’s Future investment of £1.5 billion will find its proper procedures in place. May we have a debate on way to Bolsover. that important issue in Government time? Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) Ms Harman: Safety for all patients is important, (Lab): Until and unless we can be assured that the irrespective of where the NHS provides that care. I shall Leader of the Opposition’s director of communications have go back to the question that the hon. Gentleman has not been involved in the surveillance of Members of asked me before, and to his question today, and ask the Parliament— Health Secretary to write to him. [HON.MEMBERS:“Out of order!”] Until and unless we Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): A number of my can be assured that that person has not been involved in constituents have raised concerns about newspaper reports these crimes, can the Leader of House not withdraw his that Lloyds Banking Group is employing and recruiting parliamentary security pass? overseas IT workers while laying off staff. Should not a so-called British bank, which is supported by British Ms Harman: I have to say to Opposition Members taxpayers’ money, support British workers? May we that the question of who has a pass to the House is a have a debate on that urgent matter in order to hold matter for the House—not for me, personally, as Leader Lloyds Banking Group to account? of the House. All I can suggest is that my hon. Friend raise the matter with the House authorities and ask Ms Harman: Perhaps my hon. Friend could ask them to respond on whether it is acceptable for that Treasury Ministers about that issue during oral questions person to continue having a pass, allowing him to move next week. freely around the House. 1155 9 JULY 2009 1156

Points of Order The Minister had obviously not been afforded the information with which to answer properly to the House. 12.42 pm Mr. Speaker is committed to ensuring that the House can hold the Executive to account. The Home Secretary Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): On a is in this country at an event that could easily have been point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I thought about rescheduled, and he—not the Minister—should have raising this matter at business questions, but I think that been here this morning. it is more appropriate on a point of order. Mr. Speaker and his predecessor have always deprecated the release of information to people outside this House before its Mr. Deputy Speaker: Obviously the Home Secretary announcement here. A few moments ago, the Leader of would ideally be here to answer such an urgent question. the House gave the future business and provisional However, it is extremely difficult—particularly on a business for October, and announced the delay of the Thursday and when the urgent question is granted at Report stage and Third Reading of the Health Bill until the last minute—for the Government to rearrange all Monday 12 October. their business. However, I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, which is firmly on the record. In some circumstances, That information was told to lobbying organisations, however, what has happened is quite understandable. NGOs and others long before it was discussed through the usual channels or with anybody else, including shadow Ministers from my party or, I believe, the Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): On a point Conservative party. It was certainly made known long of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. During the responses to before it was announced to the House. I know that this the urgent question earlier today, the Minister said that has happened before and that it is not unusual, but it there probably would not be a statement on the matter seems wrong that Departments should be able to make later today. May we have some indication of when a announcements about the timing of the future business statement is likely to be made, given that the Metropolitan of the House to organisations that are not part of the police are likely to say something about the issue later House, before hon. Members know about it. Could not today? Is there any reason why the House cannot be instruction be given to Departments to ensure that that informed about when that ministerial statement is likely does not happen in future? to be made—on Monday, for example? If the House cannot be so informed, what is the problem? Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): The hon. Gentleman could have raised that issue during business Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. That is not for the Chair questions rather than as a point of order. The whole to answer today. The situation is developing and more House will be aware of how strongly Mr. Speaker feels information about it will become clear as time goes by. about such activity. The points that the hon. Gentleman If the Government decide to make a statement, I am has made are on the record and will be studied by sure that they will make it at the appropriate time. everybody—not least Treasury Benchers and, I feel sure, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Last Thursday, The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet Mr. Speaker made a statement to the House and a Harman): Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy number of Members were disappointed that they were Speaker. The truth is that Departments do not know not able to ask him questions about it as they ask exactly when their Bills are to receive Second Reading Ministers questions about their statements. Mr. Speaker or have further stages debated until the business managers himself canvassed the idea of a Speaker’s question time have decided, following discussions with the usual channels, when he was seeking election to his post. and told them. Obviously Departments can make inspired guesses and put them around, but if they do that they I wonder whether—through you, Mr. Deputy might find one of these days that they are proved Speaker—we could raise with Mr. Speaker the idea that wrong. I assure the hon. Member for Somerton and when the Speaker makes a statement to the House, he Frome (Mr. Heath) that the business managers do not will accept questions about it from right hon. and hon. discuss the business of the House in advance with Members. I am sorry that Mr. Speaker is not in the anybody at all. We would not do that, because it would Chair at the moment and so cannot respond directly. not be right. However, I hope that, having put my point on the record, I can obtain a response from him in due course. Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Given the Mr. Deputy Speaker: As the hon. Gentleman will seriousness of the urgent question this morning, do you understand, I cannot respond directly to him. I suggest agree that it would have been appropriate for the Home that he writes in detail to Mr. Speaker, setting out his Secretary, rather than the Minister for Policing, Crime suggestions. I am sure that he will get a response to and Counter-Terrorism, to have been here to answer? them. 1157 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1158 Terrorism Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism Sadly, terrorism is with us. The situation is very fluid. We are still at a level of severe threat to the United [Relevant documents: The Eighteenth Report from the Kingdom. The issues of encrypted computers, mobile Joint Committee on Human Rights, Counter-Terrorism phones, terrorist networks, international languages and Policy and Human Rights (Fifteenth Report): Annual the need to gather evidence abroad may well require us, Renewal of 28 Days 2009, HC 726.] in response to further terrorist activity, to take actions— I hope they will be uncalled for—whereby the use of 12.48 pm 28 days may be appropriate. The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism (Mr. David Hanson): I beg to move, Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I have heard all this before. In Northern Ireland, we had this debate That the draft Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) year after year, and it was pretty much unequivocally Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 18 May, be approved. proved that detention without trial was a recruiting sergeant for terrorism, rather than something that helped May I start, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by saying that the to reduce it. Why does the Minister think that the urgent question was granted today at 10 o’clock? My lessons of history can be ignored today? right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is in Manchester and the transport system is not yet effective enough to Mr. Hanson: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s interest have him back here for half past 11. In response to the in and affinity with Northern Ireland. He will know hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds), I should that I served as a Northern Ireland Minister for two say that I indicated that I would update the House at years. He will also know, as will the hon. Member for an appropriate time when further information came Belfast, North (Mr. Dodds), that in Northern Ireland to light. there have been, and will continue to be, considerable In our debates on what became the Terrorism Act 2006, terrorist threats to the security of the population. I the Government agreed that there should be a requirement believe that it is important that we retain these powers. for the annual renewal, by order debated in Parliament, We have had, over some years, debates on extensions of the extension of the maximum period of detention beyond 28 days, but now, I hope, we have a settled will of terrorist suspects from 14 to 28 days. As the House that 28 days provides the opportunity for detailed will know, two such orders have been made since the investigation—where appropriate, with the appropriate commencement of the 2006 Act and the order today legal safeguards—to ensure that we protect the public, renews the maximum period of 28 days for a further which, for me, is key. period of one year, beginning 25 July 2009. Over the past 18 months, pre-charge detention has Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): An issue that has been the subject of considerable debate—that is an been raised in every one of these debates, in all parts of understatement—in the House, including during the the House, has been the impact on communities. A passage of the Counter-Terrorism Bill last year. The whole section of the excellent report by the Joint Committee issue has been discussed by the Home Affairs Committee on Human Rights is devoted to the need for the and the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which is Government to place an impact assessment before the chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon House. Has that assessment been done, and is it available (Mr. Dismore). It would not be appropriate for me to for Members to read? go over those discussions today, because they have been, and will continue to be, an important contribution Mr. Hanson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for to the debate. his intervention, and to my hon. Friend the Member for It is worth reminding ourselves of and reflecting on Hendon (Mr. Dismore) for his comments, through the why Parliament agreed the exceptional 28-day limit. As Joint Committee on Human Rights, on the impact on Members will know, terrorist investigations are hugely suspects and communities. I have looked at that issue time consuming. The increase from 14 to 28 days was this very week, and I will commission an impact assessment necessary primarily as a result of major investigations shortly. If the House will allow me, I will report back to into the use of encrypted computers and mobile phones, it when the final commissioning has taken place to complex terrorist networks, the international nature of ensure that we deal with those matters. networks, and the use of more, and different, languages. From my perspective and that of the Government, Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): Why is the Minister public safety is paramount; it is our main responsibility. so intent on ignoring the evidence against long pre-charge detention periods? Having served in Northern Ireland, I Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): Is my right know that it was a recruiting sergeant for the IRA in hon. Friend going to announce to the House how many turning communities against us. However, that question individuals have been put on pre-charge detention because has already been asked, so let me refer him to the there is concern about their activities? international evidence, which suggests that in the vast majority of countries across the world, and in most Mr. Hanson: I can give my hon. Friend those statistics. western democracies—in places such as Turkey, for She will know that to date 11 individuals have been held example—pre-charge detention periods are less than a for more than 14 days on pre-charge detention. As a week. The evidence simply does not stack up. result of what happened in that 14-day period, six of those 11 were held for the maximum of 27 to 28 days, of Mr. Hanson: There are, self-evidently, different legal whom three were charged and three were released without systems with different nuances throughout the European charge. She will also know that in the past two years Community. The Government judge that 28 days is a nobody has been held beyond 14 days. mechanism that we need, with the appropriate legal 1159 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1160 Terrorism Terrorism safeguards, to ensure that we protect the public—that is former colleagues to change their views. Why would not our first priority. The fact that the power has not been the flexibility that the Crown Prosecution Service now used for two years does not mean that in difficult, trying has on the threshold test substitute for this measure? circumstances where terrorist activity could have been Why should we not reduce the period to 14 days? What commissioned or undertaken, we would not need it proportion of terrorist cases, on the latest available again. In response to my hon. Friend the Member for figures, have resulted in a conviction, and how does that Stockton, South (Ms Taylor), I gave details of 11 individuals compare with other cases brought by the CPS? The who have been through that maximum period since the figures I have seen show that terrorist cases continue to legislation was enacted, three of whom were charged as have a higher conviction rate than non-terrorist cases. a result, and who may well not have been charged had we not had that extra 14 days, with the appropriate legal Mr. Hanson: I do not carry the number of convictions safeguards. in my head. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that I am trying to answer to the House in an appropriate Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): The Minister mentions way. I will consider those issues. If the figures materialise the number of individuals who were released during the before the end of the debate, I will give them to him 27-day period. We have discussed this extension ad when I wind up. nauseam in this House and in Committee. Can he We judge that 28 days is a necessary opportunity, in indicate any level of dissatisfaction among the security difficult circumstances, in the event of such activity. services, the police and so on about having to release these individuals, because none has come my attention? Mr. Nigel Dodds (Belfast, North) (DUP): On the lessons to be learned from Northern Ireland, there is a Mr. Hanson: One of my responsibilities as Minister difference between indefinite detention without trial—a for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism is to look at measure that our party opposed—as it applied in Northern what the police are saying about these issues. I refer the Ireland and the measure before the House, which retains hon. Gentleman to the former assistant commissioner, 28 days with all the safeguards and so on. Whatever Bob Quick, who said in providing evidence on the other points may be made, it is a bit invidious to make Counter-Terrorism Bill: that comparison, because the two things are not the “In some investigations, we have seen” same at all. attack planning activity Mr. Hanson: The hon. Gentleman hits the nail on the “materialise so quickly that on public safety grounds we have had to act pre-emptively before we have had the opportunity to head. He will know that internment without trial, which exploit pre-arrest evidential opportunities. That places a huge was used for public safety reasons in Northern Ireland burden on the investigating officer.” at a certain time in history, is not the same as a 14-day That view has been supported by the current post extension to 28 days with judicial oversight. A judge has holder, Assistant Commissioner John Yates. Only in the to examine the case, and I am accountable to this House past few months, Jonathan Evans, the new director and to the noble Lord Carlile, who reviews these matters. general of the Security Service, has stated: The situation is entirely different, although, if I may say so, we are dealing with some of the same problems. “Al Qaida and other international terrorist organisations remain a very serious threat.” There might well be complex, difficult cases involving detailed trails of evidence that require a level of investigation We need to be aware of that and able to take action. for which 14 days will simply not suffice.

Patrick Mercer: I am grateful to the Minister, but he Several hon. Members rose— has not answered my question. As he knows, I head up the counter-terrorism sub-committee, and I am not Mr. Hanson: I should like to make some progress, but aware of any great tensions or worries among the police I shall give way finally to my hon. Friend the Member or security services about the individuals who had to be for Stockton, South, and the hon. Member for Chesterfield released at the last moment. Am I wrong, or has he, or (Paul Holmes). I have been quite generous. the Home Secretary, been under pressure about the individuals who have gone to the wire and had to be Ms Dari Taylor: I am most grateful to my right hon. released? Friend, who has indeed been generous. Will he acknowledge from the Dispatch Box that the Home Office is not Mr. Hanson: It is difficult for me to comment on communicating effectively? In the Yorkshire bomb factory individual cases, but the key point is that we have used episode, it was 14 days before officers could get into the the power in respect of 11 individuals, for 28 days. factory to start the investigation. It is critical for all of Three individuals were charged in that 14-to-28 day us to feel that we have a sense of what is going on, so period, and the fact that three were released because that we can confidently support pre-charge detention of there may not have been sufficient evidence, with the up to 28 days. I ask him to accept that the Home Office allegations being dropped, does not hide the fact that is failing to acknowledge its responsibility in that regard. without those extra 14 days there would have been no possibility of charges being made. Mr. Hanson: My hon. Friend makes a passionate case for the use of the power that we currently have. She will Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): This is not just a know that I have been in post for, I believe, six weeks question of reducing the debate to numbers and to how and four days. I will attempt to examine that issue, tough one is measured by how long the period of because there is a genuine argument, in the interests of pre-charge detention is. There is a clear change to the public safety, for ensuring that we make that case. What threshold test, which persuaded some of the Minister’s has happened over the past two years has not required 1161 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1162 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr. Hanson] British terrorists attacked the London transport system, murdering 52 people, the anniversary of which was only the use of the power, but with the threat to the UK still this week, there have been numerous plots against UK at severe level we need to be sure that in the event of a citizens, including in London and Glasgow in June 2007 plot either being thwarted or happening, those who are and Exeter in May 2008. I cannot predict what might trying to damage our constituents and disrupt their happen in the next 12 months. The 28-day limit has daily lives are brought to justice within a legal framework been used, and the noble Lord Carlile has consistently and within the time that we have. highlighted in his annual reports that he expects in the course of time to see cases in which even the current Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD) rose— maximum of 28 days will be proved inadequate. I believe that we have made a good case. I recognise Mr. Hanson: I give way for the last time. This is a that people are concerned about civil liberty issues, but short debate, and I want Members to be able to have I believe that judicial overview is sufficient to ensure their say. that the security of individual freedoms is protected at the same time as the liberties of others in the state. I Paul Holmes: I thank the Minister. Other democratic hope that the House will agree to the order. I shall try to countries do not have anything like 28 days’ detention answer points that are made in the debate, and if without charge. Typically, they have two to seven days. possible I will return to the figures that the hon. Member The USA and Canada have two days and New Zealand for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) mentioned. If I do not have has one day. The Minister pointed out that they have them by the end of the debate, I will certainly write to different legal systems, and one difference is that they him in due course. I carry many things around with me, make extensive use of post-charge questioning to overcome but not every precise figure, and I would not wish to the difficulties of getting into encrypted databases and mislead him or the House. so forth. The Government have given themselves limited powers to do that. What use has been made of them, and why cannot the Government adopt the practice of 1.6 pm other countries by making extensive use of post-charge Mr. David Ruffley (Bury St. Edmunds) (Con): When questioning? we debated the last such order, the Government were in the midst of attempting to increase the pre-charge Mr. Hanson: We could have adopted, for example, the detention limit to 42 days. Having failed to convince the model used in France, where pre-trial detention can last House of the case for 90 days, they then failed to four years and it is theoretically possible for someone to convince Members of another place of the case for be held for that full period. We could have taken the 42 days. The fact that we are here again debating an approach of our good colleagues from Spain, who can extension of the application of the 28-day limit reflects hold people for five days before handing them over to the fact that these matters are not set in concrete. The judicial authorities, after which they can be held in fact that the extension must be renewed annually reflects preventive judicial custody for up to four years. We have the fact that it is an exceptional power. Although we not taken that approach. We have made a judgment, will not oppose the order, the Government should be which will be tested again in the House this afternoon, aware that the consensus on 28 days is not in any way that 14 to 28 days is a reasonable period, with reasonable unconditional. judicial safeguards, to ensure that individuals can be The statistics on the use of 28 days do not demonstrate charged. Let us not forget what this is about. It is about to us a continuing and permanent need. In 2006-07, real threats to our community, and we need to have 10 people were held for between 14 and 28 days, of discussions about that. whom seven were charged and three released without As I have mentioned, there are not just general safeguards charge. In 2007-08, one person was held for longer than but specific ones in the judicial system. A Crown Prosecution 14 days and released on day 19. Since March 2008, no Service lawyer has to make an application for an extension individual has been held for longer than 14 days. I beyond 14 days, with the senior investigating officer wonder whether, reflecting on those figures, the Minister present. Defence solicitors are provided with a written accepts that the evidence for the year’s extension is not document in advance of each application. Applications completely compelling. are usually strenuously opposed, and the hearings last As the Minister will be aware, there continue to be for several hours. The investigating officer may be questioned problems with the legal framework for pre-charge detention. vigorously about all aspects of the case. The Joint Committee on Human Rights report last There is judicial oversight of extensions. A judge can month raised a number of questions about the 28-day grant an extension of less than seven full days, but he period. There are concerns that the current law does not can also grant up to 14 days. That remains subject to uphold a suspect’s right to a judicial hearing, and about judicial oversight. In my view, there is no contradiction the amount of information that suspects are given between pursuing counter-terrorism objectives and about the reason for their detention. A recent ruling by providing a legal framework to defend individuals’ liberties the Law Lords on the cases of three individuals under and ensure that they are represented and have the control orders is a sign that despite all the safeguards opportunity to state their case. Pre-charge detention of that are in place, the right of all citizens to a fair trial 14 days remains the norm, and 28 days is for exceptional means that the Government need to re-examine the circumstances such as those my hon. Friend the Member nature of evidence presented to suspects. The same for Stockton, South, described. applies to the order before the House. As hon. Members know, the threat level remains at We all accept that this country faces a real and severe. That means, sadly, that we are preparing for an increasingly complex terrorist threat. There is no debate attack that may be highly likely. Since July 2005, when about that at all, but for exceptional measures such as 1163 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1164 Terrorism Terrorism those in the order to be acceptable to the public, the Patrick Mercer: May I answer the question asked by Government need to continue to make their case for the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor)? I them. have certainly received representations from the small but influential Muslim community—Sufis, who are Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is making a careful remarkably balanced, sensible and loyal people—in my and measured case in support of the order. He participated constituency, asking me to explain the implications of in the previous debate on its renewal and will recall that the order. Sources that I handled in Northern Ireland in several Members asked about the assessment of the years gone by have also expressed reservations about it. impact on communities. Is he as concerned as I am that I will expand on that later, should I be allowed to speak. it has taken the Government so long to initiate the risk assessment, when it is clear from all our debates so far Mr. Ruffley: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. I that our support for the measure is based, as he has just hope that that goes some way towards answering the said, on the Government’s making the case? question about the representations that we have received. I suspect that Labour Members have also received such Mr. Ruffley: The right hon. Gentleman anticipates representations—the Chairman of the Home Affairs my next point. I was about to say that the Government, Committee is nodding. If he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy in publishing their Contest 2 counter-terrorism strategy, Speaker, he may wish to answer the question asked by have attempted to explain the nature of the terror threat the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor). and the need for robust policies to face it, but the fullest explanations are required. It is therefore pertinent to The Minister has reiterated the case for 28 days, consider the concerns about Operation Pathway and relying on many of the arguments that were made the arrest of 12 students in Manchester. Hon. Members previously—often for 90 days and then 42 days. Although will recall that the then Assistant Metropolitan Police I accept that the complex nature of some terrorist plots Commissioner, Bob Quick, was forced to resign for and the difficulty in gathering admissible evidence means revealing the operation. The Prime Minister told us that that extensions will be required, can the Minister offer it was a serious plot based on solid evidence, yet not a an update on moves to allow the use of intercept single charge has been made. Pursuant to that and the evidence in criminal proceedings? We have not heard comments of the right hon. Member for Leicester, East much about that in the debate. It is now more than (Keith Vaz), does the Minister agree that if talk of 18 months since the Chilcot review recommended that alarming and dangerous plots is not followed up with it was in the interests of national security to develop an transparent judicial process, the wider public will not acceptable way of bringing intercept evidence to court. necessarily be assured of the need for intrusive and I do not know how much progress the follow-up committee tough counter-terrorist measures? has made—perhaps the Minister can give us an update. Sir John’s new responsibilities for the Iraq inquiry will Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is making a place further burdens on his time. It will be interesting compelling case for treating the provisions as temporary. to hear about that from the Minister because it bears on Why, therefore, will not the official Opposition vote the case for the necessity of 28-day periods of detention. against them today? Are they insisting on taking St. Augustine’s position—Lord, make us virtuous, but Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): I apologise not yet? to the hon. Gentleman and the House for having to leave, once the Minister has finished speaking, for a Mr. Ruffley: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s party in my constituency. We are fortunately a long way comments. Our position is that we will, on balance, give from 90 days, which was proposed four years ago, and the Government the benefit of the doubt on the basic from 42 days, which was proposed more recently. I give condition that the order will be kept under review. I the Government the benefit of the doubt on 28 days, as shall make some further remarks at the end of my the official Opposition intend to do, because witnesses speech that will answer the hon. Gentleman’s point. who gave evidence to the Home Affairs Committee and were unhappy with 42 days were satisfied with 28 days. Ms Dari Taylor: The hon. Gentleman is generous in They included Ken Macdonald, the former Director of giving way. The subject is difficult and detailed and we Public Prosecutions. There is therefore a case to stick to all need to ensure that we are concentrating. I am 28 days for another year, but the Government should listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman. There is a keep the matter under review. The sooner we can get small but vocal ethnic group in my constituency and in back to 14 days—or even seven days—the happier most Teesside. None of its members has spoken to me about of us will be. pre-charge detention and none has criticised it or perceived it as problematic. Indeed, members of that group work with Cleveland police. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting Mr. Ruffley: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s that groups have spoken to the Conservative party or to comments. The order must be kept under review. If the him personally to express serious concerns about pre-charge evidence suggests that the period can be reduced from detention? It is important to share our knowledge as 28 days in future, we will support that. However, we well as the concerns that we clearly have. must examine the evidence. From today, our support for the extension of pre-charge Mr. Ruffley: The hon. Lady makes a fair point. detention in the order will depend on what any Government Colleagues have already said that draconian measures, are able and willing to do about two things. First, they which are not fully explained or transparent and do not must demonstrate convincingly to Parliament that the carry public support, can in some circumstances become security situation is such that 28 days remains indispensable a recruiting sergeant for those who wish to commit and cannot be shortened. It may seem self-evident, but terrorist atrocities against this country. that means that we need a proper and continuing discussion 1165 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1166 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr. Ruffley] and three released. In our previous reports, my Committee indicated that detailed, qualitative information was needed in Parliament about the security situation. Secondly, for Parliament to make an informed decision. Since they will need to look at the legal framework governing September 2008, three people have been convicted. There the judicial authorisation of extended detention to ensure is a retrial involving other defendants, and I accept that that it meets the procedural protections afforded not we cannot scrutinise those cases until the retrials have only by our common law but by article 5 of the European been concluded, but, as I said last year, we could carry convention on human rights. I hope that this will give out a detailed analysis of the cases of the three people an indication of the approach that we want to take, who were released. However, we were told at the time should there be a change of Government before the that the Home Office does not hold information on next renewal. those cases, as they are an operational matter for the The Government of the day have a duty to keep the police, in consultation with the Crown Prosecution people of this country secure, with parliamentary consent Service. That was a surprising response, as lessons could and public understanding, and to take the measures be learned from the cases of innocent people who have that are strictly necessary to achieving that end. Protection been held for 28 days. Despite last year’s assurances of for the public and for this country must be, and can be, more detailed information being made available, it seems achieved in ways that uphold our historic freedoms and that all we are getting now is the Home Office’s statistical our reputation for justice and procedural fair dealing. It bulletin. That gives only the bare figures, which are not is in that spirit, and that spirit alone, that we make our a great deal of use. case today and will not vote down or seek to divide the During last year’s renewal debate, the then Minister, House on the measure before us. my right hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty), expressly accepted the need for detailed information to be made available about how the power 1.21 pm had been used in practice when debating future renewals. Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I should like to Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate speak to the tagged report from the Joint Committee on reported on the counter-terrorism division of the CPS Human Rights. The Select Committee starts with the in April 2009. The Government relied on that inspection premise, as it always does, that human rights law imposes in response to our inquiry into their plans to conduct a a duty on the state to protect us all from terrorism, and qualitative review. it is on that point that today’s debate must focus. The 28-day provision was supposed to be a temporary Mr. Winnick: As I have indicated, I am not in favour measure, but this is the third annual renewal debate of reducing the period of 28 days at this stage. Should since it was introduced in 2006. There is therefore a risk we not, however, pay tribute to the other place—which I of its developing an air of permanence, as the Prevention do not always do—because the proposal to increase the of Terrorism Acts have. That legislation was originally period of detention from 28 to 42 days was carried in aimed at Irish terrorism, but it has been renewed year this House and even, unfortunately, in the Home Affairs after year, decade after decade. Committee, with various qualifications, but their lordships rejected it. So, although it was carried in the Commons In preparing for today’s debate, I looked at my notes by a majority of nine—the number of Unionist MPs at for last year’s debate and the relevant report. Little the time—the period was not increased from 28 days, seems to have changed, save that yet another year has and nor should it be in any circumstances. passed without the power having had to be used. I concede that that is not, in itself, proof that the measure Mr. Dismore: My hon. Friend has made his point. I is not needed, but it does mean that we need to scrutinise would simply say that my Committee did not endorse ever more closely the question of its renewal. the proposal on 42 days, even though his Committee The recent report of the Eminent Jurists Panel on did. Terrorism, Counter-Terrorism and Human Rights warned of the corrosive effect of open-ended departures from Mr. Winnick: Unfortunately it did, yes. ordinary procedures and of the danger of special measures, introduced to deal with a temporary crisis, becoming Mr. Dismore: I was referring to the inspection by Her permanent. The point appears to have been accepted in Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate. The principle by the Secretary of State for Justice, who was Government say that, on the basis of that inspection, recently reported in the press as having indicated, in a there public lecture on 12 May, that UK counter-terrorism “does not appear to be any need for another inspection.” laws built up in the wake of the 9/11 attacks on New However, the CPS inspectorate has not conducted the York and the 7/7 attacks on London should be reviewed qualitative analysis that we recommended in earlier and may need to be scaled back. He is reported to have reports. We therefore reach the same conclusion that we said: reached last year on the question of the need to go “There is a case for going through all counter-terrorism legislation beyond 14 days to 28 days—namely, that we are unable and working out whether we need it. It was there for a temporary to reach a view as to whether the Government have period.” made their case. In our report, we repeat our call for a The Government have set out their case again today, thoroughgoing review of all those cases in which the stating that the complex nature of terrorism investigations power has been exercised, with a view to ascertaining requires the longer period of detention. However, we whether those released could have been released earlier, know from what the Minister has said, and from published and whether those charged could have been charged documentation, that only six people have been held for earlier, on the threshold test. We simply do not know the maximum of 28 days, of whom three were charged the basis of those charges. 1167 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1168 Terrorism Terrorism The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism Last year, we recommended that the Government seek has made much of the safeguards available through and make available to Parliament independent advice judicial hearing and oversight. We have grave reservations assessing, in general terms, the likely impact on individuals about that, however. A person who has been arrested on of being detained without charge for up to 28 days, suspicion of terrorism has a convention right, under and—this point has not yet been raised—the actual article 5(4), to a judicial hearing to determine the lawfulness impact, including the psychological effect, on individuals of their detention. They have the same right to a judicial who have been detained for more than 14 days pre-charge. hearing under the common law principle of habeas We should look not only at the collective impact on a corpus. In a number of our reports, we have expressed community but at the impact on the individual people our concern that the current arrangements for judicial concerned. Every person has their own individual human authorisation of extended pre-charge detention are not rights. Human rights are personal, not collective. compatible with the right to a judicial hearing. We are concerned that the hearing of an application for a Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is making a powerful warrant for further detention is not a fully adversarial speech. Bearing in mind what the Minister said from the hearing, because of the power to exclude the suspect Dispatch Box today—it is still a puzzle to me why it has and his representative from the hearing, and to withhold taken the Government so long to begin the process of from the suspect and his lawyer information that is assessment—this process should involve consultation provided to the judge. with Parliament on how the risk assessment is going to be conducted. It should not be done solely from Whitehall We are also concerned about the adequacy of the for Whitehall; it should include the process of parliamentary judicial oversight at such extension hearings, because scrutiny. the judge is empowered to consider only the future course of the investigation and whether it is being Mr. Dismore: I thank my right hon. Friend for that conducted diligently and expeditiously by the police, good suggestion. rather than whether there is sufficient evidence to justify Last year, the Government undertook to conduct a the suspect’s original arrest and continued detention. risk assessment on the effect of the 28-day extension on Since the last annual renewal of the 28-day measure, communities. Asked when the community impact review the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Human would be complete, Lord West told the other place: Rights and now the House of Lords have held that the “We hope to have the initial findings out by the end of the requirements of a fair hearing under article 5(4) include year”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 1 July 2008; Vol. 703, the requirement that the detained person must be given c. 203.]— sufficient information about the allegations against him, namely 2008. A year later, neither type of impact to enable him to contest those allegations or to give assessment—individual or community—has been made effective instructions in relation to the allegations to the available to Parliament. person representing his interests. The Government acknowledge in their reply to our The statutory framework for the extension of pre-charge queries their commitment to undertake a review of the detention expressly provides for the withholding from impact of all counter-terrorism legislation on our the suspect and his lawyer of information that is seen by communities, but they now envisage publishing a research the judge, and for the exclusion of the suspect and his report by late November 2009. However, the psychological lawyer from parts of the hearing. There is no provision impact of extended pre-charge detention on individuals for special advocates in the closed part of extension will not be included within that review. Such an assessment hearings, and even if there were, it is now clear that the could already have taken place in the case of those held essence of the case against a detained person must be for more than 14 days and then released without charge. disclosed to that person to enable them to contest the We recommend again that the Government obtain and allegations. make available to Parliament such an impact assessment. The decisions of the Grand Chamber on the Belmarsh The other main new point is about the presumption regime, and of the House of Lords on the control of innocence. Last year, the Minister conceded that a orders regime, concerning the minimum that is required special paper on the impact of press speculation on the for a judicial hearing to be truly judicial in nature, make right to a fair trial had not been prepared, but it “might even clearer the risk of breaches of article 5(4). Unless be worth considering”. Strasbourg case law is very clear amendments to the statutory framework are made, that the presumption of innocence requires Ministers to renewal of the maximum extended period of 28 days refrain from pronouncing on a suspect’s guilt before risks leading in practice to breaches of article 5(4). they have been convicted. The approach of the Attorney- Our report also notes with interest that our concerns General, whereby a specific newspaper or broadcaster about the compatibility of the pre-charge detention may have their attention drawn to risks of publication framework with the right to a judicial hearing following and prejudging a particular case, is very ad hoc and arrest are shared by the Eminent Jurists Panel on Terrorism, does not address the problem of possible prejudice to Counter-Terrorism and Human Rights in its recent fair trials caused by Ministers commenting on cases report. The panel also comments on the example that when suspects have been arrested—even before they this sends to the rest of the world, stating: have been charged. In our view, the Director of Public “It is distressing to see how the slackening of procedural Prosecutions should draw up and consult on draft safeguards in countries like France, the UK and the USA, has guidance on how to avoid prejudicial comment—by the been exploited by other States with less well-entrenched legal press or Ministers—following the arrest of terrorism systems and human rights safeguards.” suspects, particularly after they have been charged. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East In common with the official Opposition, I do not (Keith Vaz), the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, oppose the order, and I say that simply because we have asked about the impact of the measure on communities. insufficient evidence to form a view either way. If renewal 1169 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1170 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr. Dismore] This is all part of a pattern from a Government who have an obsession with tough-sounding policies that is sought next year, the Government must produce an may appease parts of the electorate but, in reality, have evidence-based case with the analysis that my Committee little impact on the problem—or, as we have heard from has recommended for several years, especially if the some hon. Members, run the risk of having a completely power is not used over the next 12 months, bearing in counter-productive impact on the problem. It seems to mind that it has not been used over the last two years. me that attempts to reduce the period of detention are Either way, further safeguards are needed in the light of long overdue. recent judicial pronouncements—and, indeed, in the Let us look at the facts surrounding the detention light of common law and common sense—so we look period. Since June 2007, no one has been held in pre-charge forward to hearing the Minister’s response to these detention for longer than 14 days. Over the whole points. period reported to us, only 11 people who were terrorist 1.32 pm suspects have ever been held for longer than 14 days and only six people have ever been held for the full 28 days; Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): I am always very half of those, moreover, were eventually released without pleased to follow the hon. Member for Hendon charge. Half were released without any surveillance or (Mr. Dismore), who made a number of good points. I suspicion, which tells me that the innocent have been have to say, however, that as with the speech of the hon. made to suffer most. This House should surely be Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley), I am exceptionally careful about affecting British law and the slightly confused by the hon. Gentleman’s position, as it rights of the innocent. seems to me that this House has a very long and honourable tradition of giving the Executive powers Many numbers have been used dispassionately in the only when the case for them is clearly made out. What debate today, but we must not forget the human implications we have heard from the hon. Member for Hendon, of what it is like to be imprisoned for close to a month. based on the deliberations of his Committee, is that the It is a terrifying and disorientating experience even for Government have not made out a case for the extension someone who is guilty, let alone for a potentially innocent of the period of detention without charge. person, and it can have a huge impact on their life, particularly when they do not even know what they We on the Liberal Democrat Benches are unhappy have been charged with. How fundamental an assault with the further extension of what was clearly introduced on the principle that we are innocent until proven guilty as a temporary provision. That is why we will divide the is it to be incarcerated for a long period without even House on this issue later today. There is an old adage knowing what we have been accused of? that there is nothing so permanent as the temporary, and there are many examples of that in our legislation, Two weeks should be long enough to decide whether but we should not seek to extend that principle to these someone should be charged with a terrorist offence or particular provisions. not. As my hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield My argument today is that 28 day pre-charge detention (Paul Holmes) pointed out, our current 28 days far is no longer a necessary or appropriate length of time to exceeds the equivalent limits in other comparable common detain a terrorist suspect. The Government have not law democracies. Australia has 12 days, the United made their case on that. The Joint Committee on Human States two days and Canada allows for one day. The Rights released its report last month suggesting, as the Minister’s answer was basically “What about France hon. Member for Hendon said, that the Government and Spain?”. We deliberately chose our comparison have not made their case, which I believe is because they because these are Commonwealth countries whose cannot make such a case. traditions of law stem from the law that began in this country—namely, traditions of freedom and liberty. I am not naive. I recognise that the western world has Let me reiterate that, as it stands, our current 28 days changed substantially since the 11 September bombings far exceeds equivalent limits in other comparable common and there is no doubt that the UK faces serious terrorist law democracies. We have never traditionally compared threats from sophisticated international groups intent ourselves and our tradition of liberty with that of on doing us harm. It follows that investigations into Spain, France and other continental countries, which these threats will be complex, transnational and will have a very different tradition. However, it is perfectly involve difficulties such as dealing with foreign languages legitimate to compare ourselves with other common and computer encryption. But the methods we use to law countries. tackle those threats need to be proportionate and effective, which pre-charge detention, I suggest, is simply not. Why do the Government insist that we need to hold Since 2000, the Government have drastically altered people for close to one month when so many other our detention periods. We have rapidly progressed from countries manage to charge and convict with pre-charge a position of seven days to 28 days of maximum detention. detention periods of less than a week? Surely the That is to ignore the frankly quite staggering attempts Government are not suggesting that our police and in-between to extend detention to 90 days, following the Crown Prosecution Service are slower and less equipped 7/7 bombings, and then last year to extend it yet again to deal with terror threats. Are the terrorist threats we to 42 days through the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008. face more complex than those of our Commonwealth Luckily, the Government were defeated due to almost cousins? I think not. universal opposition. I believe that the Government We consider that the arguments previously used in seriously lost their case on this matter, particularly if we favour of retaining 28 days’ pre-charge detention have look at some of people who peeled off and became been particularly weakened as other methods of combating critics. Despite that defeat, 42 days’ detention lurks as a terrorism and bringing charges have been strengthened. threat on the statute book, not least due to the draft Bill The counter-terrorism landscape has changed over the that the then Home Secretary placed in the Library. intervening period. The Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 1171 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1172 Terrorism Terrorism allows for post-charge questioning. The Chilcot report, why the Government failed so conclusively in their published in February 2008, has paved the way for the attempt to increase the number of days from 28 to 42 admissibility of intercept evidence. Perhaps if the House was that a whole series of serious people who had been were to agree with us today and vote this temporary involved in the counter-terrorism effort for many years provision down, the Government might put a little were unpersuaded. more effort into ensuring that intercept evidence is The Crown Prosecution Service can now bring charges admissible in court and the security services are better on the basis of reasonable suspicion alone, even when it resourced to deal with the modern threat. does not think that the chance of a conviction is greater According to the Home Affairs Committee report on than 50 per cent. With that flexibility, in 2007 the Contest, released earlier this month, Crown Prosecution Service enjoyed a 92 per cent. conviction “the UK’s counter-terrorism apparatus is first-class, effective and rate in terror cases—I am sorry that the Minister has as ‘joined-up’ as any system of government can expect.” not been able to give us the most up-to-date figures, but Surely that makes the point again. Why do we need to I can give him the most up-to-date figures that are do particular violence to our traditions of liberty and of available to me—and in 2008 the conviction rate was trial, given that the Home Affairs Committee—and I 78 per cent. Both those rates are substantially higher am sure that the Government would support its than the rates of conviction for other serious crimes. judgment—says that our counter-terrorism apparatus is first-class? Mr. Ruffley: Can the hon. Gentleman give us the number of cases lying behind those percentages? Percentages Ms Dari Taylor: I am just about at explosion point. I can often deceive. am really very sorry to say this to the House, but when the hon. Gentleman tells us that if the Government put Chris Huhne: I will happily send the hon. Gentleman in a bit more oomph or the Home Office handled its a letter, but he knows as well as I do that the number of work load with a bit more urgency so that intercepted terror cases is relatively small. The crucial point is this. material could be used as evidence today, it is obvious If we are able to prosecute successfully more than three that he does not know what he is talking about. Chilcot quarters of those against whom charges are brought, and the rest of them have been trying for months to the massive amount of additional flexibility still available work out how intercepted material could be used as to the Crown Prosecution Service enables it to bring evidence without damaging our agencies in any way. If charges in other cases if it so desires, and if it considers the hon. Gentleman does not know that when he is such action important to the defence of national security. addressing the House, he should do. It is that additional flexibility that I believe to be so Chris Huhne: I am delighted that the hon. Lady is crucial. It may be said that that too could be onerous in getting so worked up. I merely remind her that in both terms of civil liberties, but I think it far better for people Australia and the United States—the United States at least to know with what they are charged than to be example is particularly relevant—intercept evidence is in a Kafkaesque position, floundering around unable to already admissible in court. If she spent any time talking meet accusations against them, with the possibility of to serious investigators of both terrorism and organised being detained for long periods without even knowing crime in the United States, she would find that they what they are suspected of doing. In my opinion, all think it astonishing that we are not prepared to avail those developments create a compelling case for a reduction ourselves of a fundamental tool for the bringing of in the maximum length of pre-charge detention. successful prosecutions. Mr. Winnick: I fear that I shall not be joining the Let me also remind the hon. Lady that the reason it is hon. Gentleman in the Lobby. Although I understand so important for us to think about the United States is all the reasons he has given, I shall support the Government. that we have such a close intelligence relationship with One of my reasons is that the witnesses who gave it. I suggest that if the United States can use intercept evidence against 42 days’ detention to the Home Affairs evidence without blowing a hole in the abilities of its Committee—I felt that the Committee had reached the security and secret services, we too should be able to do wrong conclusion, and as usual I made my views clear; I so. As the hon. Lady knows very well, this issue has believe that I was in a minority of one—did not seem to been dragging on for ages. want a reduction in the 28-day period at this stage. David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I When the former chief of M15 opposed the 42-day apologise for intervening when I have only just come period in her maiden speech in the House of Lords—again, into the Chamber, but an even more relevant example is we all make up our own minds; fortunately, the Lords Australia, where the head of counter-terrorism has rejected that—she did not seem to suggest that a reduction stated in terms that those who do not use intercept in the 28-day period was necessary at this stage, given evidence in court are not being serious about counter- the acute terrorist danger that Britain faces. terrorism. Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman has made a good Chris Huhne: I entirely agree with the right hon. point. The difficulty is that what we were discussing at Gentleman. I am delighted that he managed to hotfoot the time was a proposal for a further extension from it into the Chamber to make that devastating intervention. 28 days to 42. The clear and pressing need was to defeat I note that the hon. Member for Stockton, South that proposal, as it constituted another serious attack (Ms Taylor) is not seeking to respond to it. on civil liberties. When we consider the use of these As I have said, the arguments previously used in powers since the 7/7 bombings, however, and when we favour of retaining 28 days’ pre-charge detention have consider the changes that I described earlier, we see a been substantially weakened, and we ought to take compelling case for returning to the arrangement for account of that. Moreover, the threshold test is now which the Act originally provided, rather than applying substantially more flexible. I believe that the real reason the extension of the period without charge. 1173 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1174 Terrorism Terrorism David Davis: I gather than the hon. Gentleman is The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) arguing for 14 days. As he will recall, when we debated summed up my feeling extremely well when he said that the 42-day detention period, we discussed the Heathrow we accept the Government’s case as put forward by the plot in excruciating detail, and we found that in one Minister, but that the next time this matter comes serious case someone had been detained for between before the House we will expect the Government to put 14 and 21 days. I think that the hon. Gentleman’s a stronger and more effective case. That is not a criticism argument would be more compelling if he were supporting of my right hon. Friend the Minister’s speech; I say it 21 days rather than 14 at this stage. because we can no longer just accept in good faith statements made on issues of this kind. Chris Huhne: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North has raised the subject of the Heathrow plot. He is (Mr. Winnick) has just left the Chamber, but I wish to absolutely right. The reason we were prepared to vote pay tribute to him for the work he has done in this area. with the official Opposition on the extension to 28 days The fact that we have 28 days is, by and large, due to the was the evidence surrounding the investigations of that fact that he came up with this compromise when the plot. If the right hon. Gentleman had arrived in the Government had originally suggested an extension to Chamber a little earlier, however, he would have heard 90 days. That is why he and other Members also support me enumerate a number of changes—in particular, the the Government measure to renew, I think. flexibility applying to the threshold test—which provide a substantially greater toolkit for the authorities dealing The Minister was not the responsible Minister when with terrorism than was available to them at that time. this matter came before the House at the time of the As the great liberal John Maynard Keynes once said: debate on 42 days, but he will recall that the concern we “When the facts change, I change my mind.” all had was that there was only a need to give the Government these powers if the Government were in a David Davis: He went on to ask: position to use the powers. Reference has been made to the Home Affairs Committee report on extension to “What do you do, sir?” 42 days. Hon. Members—especially my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North—said that we came to a Chris Huhne: Indeed. As I hope the House recognises, conclusion that would mean the period would be extended. the circumstances have changed. That is right, but it is important to put it on record that I know that the Government are sinking in the opinion although we accepted that there ought to be an extension, polls, but that does not mean that they should cling to there were a number of conditions that we felt it was ill-thought-out laws that they rushed through in moments important the Government should meet before that of panic and fear while attempting to reassure the 42-day period was triggered. We did not say that it public that action was being taken. The end-result has should just go ahead willy-nilly, but I should have been that this Government have tumbled into a counter- realised that a combination of my hon. Friend, Baroness terrorism strategy rather like Alice falling down the Manningham-Buller and Shami Chakrabarti would rabbit hole, in that there is no exit strategy and the eventually see this particular measure defeated. Government can tell us nothing about when they intend to end these apparently temporary powers. Yet, as In checking on the constituencies of hon. Members, I we know from having heard from Members with was reading the “Dod’s Parliamentary Companion” experience of counter-terrorism in Northern Ireland, report on proceedings before the House in the 177th year there are considerable dangers in a Government acting of Dod’s. It contains an account of the last debate we disproportionately and abandoning the moral high ground. had to try to raise the period from 28 to 42 days, in We must not abandon the moral high ground, we must which it said the Government not retreat, and above all, we must not become the sort “scraped through by nine votes. Few could really understand why of threat that we are attempting to fight. so much political capital had been expended on a 14-day extension of detention which, by the time concessions had been made, looked unlikely ever to be deployable anyway. The provision 1.50 pm seems highly likely to be amended in the Lords, where it has Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): This was a very already been condemned by a former Lord Chancellor, a former quiet and sombre debate until the hon. Member for Attorney General and a former Director of MI5, in addition to the opposition. Then there will be the ‘ping pong’ between the Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) spoke and livened matters up Houses, and the risk of defeat yet again.” considerably. There was a very passionate intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton, South There was no ping-pong of course, as the Government (Ms Taylor), and the right hon. Member for Haltemprice accepted the decision of the other place and as a result and Howden (David Davis) galloped into the Chamber the 42-day proposal was defeated. to make his intervention. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) I find myself in precisely the same position as the made an eloquent speech that rightly drew attention to official Opposition—that of putting the Government the eighth report by his Joint Committee on Human on notice. We have debated this matter at length, and it Rights. He pointed out the Committee’s concerns, which is important that the House has a proper, full debate on I do not think the Minister addressed so I hope he will the issues involved, because they concern the liberty of do so when he comes to reply. Is the Whip—my hon. the subject. We should therefore take time to consider Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Mudie)—nodding the matter rather than rush in and agree a renewal. I and trying to encourage me to get on with my speech? I shall therefore be in the Division Lobby with the assure him that there is plenty of time left in the debate, Government—and presumably with the official with no more speakers other than the Front-Bench Opposition—in support of the measure that the Minister spokesmen, so if he will allow me to develop my arguments, has brought before the House today. I will be extraordinarily grateful. 1175 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1176 Terrorism Terrorism When the Minister replies, I hope he will deal with not bother to wait for a letter as that will take too long. points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon. Is he giving me his boyish, charming smile? I will expect When his Committee considered the matter, it did not that kind of detail when he responds. see that there was a case for an extension certainly beyond 28 days, or even for keeping it at 28 days. His Ms Dari Taylor: Would it not be appropriate for this speech was an “on notice” speech, therefore. Along with risk assessment process to include parliamentarians? the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds, myself and other Members, he is putting the Government on notice Keith Vaz: Absolutely. The Minister should take a that we would not be prepared to go along with this leaf out of the book of the Minister for Borders and proposal on a future occasion unless additional information Immigration—I am talking about what happened when were placed before the House. the Government were defeated on the Gurkha issue—and remember the importance of consulting Parliament. I Chris Huhne: We have had a number of commitments am sure that the Home Affairs Committee, some of from Members over the years on issues to do with this whose distinguished members are in the Chamber today, matter—I am thinking of control orders in particular. would want to be consulted, as would the Joint Committee Members have stood up and made a very similar speech on Human Rights. The Minister should let us know to that which the right hon. Gentleman is making, in precisely what is planned, because we have heard some which they have said, “I’m putting the Government on wonderful statements from the Government about notice. Next year, we’re not going to do this,” but that community cohesion—the Prime Minister has announced has not then transpired. Is the right hon. Gentleman additional money and the Secretary of State for making a firm commitment that if this Government—or Communities and Local Government has talked about perhaps another Government—come forward with this communities working together—but we need to see proposal again next year, he will vote against it? detailed plans before we can support them on a future occasion. Keith Vaz: I think it is better to give a firm commitment My final points relate to intercept evidence. Again, I than to be accused of being St. Augustine, which is one am sorry to disappoint the Whip, but this debate lasts of the favourite descriptions of hon. Members in certain only an hour and half. I do not know whether anybody other circumstances. Of course we simply cannot go on has been arrested or detained in Leeds, but this issue renewing this order unless we have something more affects the whole country and the liberty of the citizen, from the Government than, “It is a very complicated so I should be grateful if he allowed me, without hurrying process; there are a lot of computer discs to examine; it me along, to finish this small contribution. I say to the does take a lot of time to look at these situations,” hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) that my especially as the head of counter-terrorism, Assistant Committee’s report recommended that intercept evidence Commissioner Yates, is already worrying about the should be used, because we felt that that was the right possible reduction in his budget that the Government approach to take. I take the point made by my hon. are proposing or agreeing to. So yes, we have to put the Friend the Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor) Government on notice. We have to ensure that the point that this has to be done carefully, but it should not be of scrutinising the Government in both the Select done so carefully that we never get it implemented. At Committee on Home Affairs and the Joint Committee the time, the Prime Minister made a statement to the on Human Rights is to hold them to account. They House in which he said he was in favour of this. have had us on good faith, but it is time we said to them that there is a point when good faith runs out. Therefore, So let us adopt these sensible proposals and try to next time we will expect the Minister to come up with make progress on this matter. Let us all put the Government firm evidence in order to convince us that the Government on notice that next time we will not nod this through; have the right approach. we will be much more critical if the Minister does not come up with the goods. I am sorry to delay the Whip in his whipping arrangements, but may I raise one further point: the impact on communities? I raised this with the hon. 2.1 pm Member for Bury St. Edmunds and my hon. Friend the Mr. Hanson: I have to tell my right hon. Friend the Member for Hendon. It really is not good enough for Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz) that I was the Government to come before the House every year 52 years old on Sunday, so I gratefully accept his and say, “Yes, we will have an impact assessment. Yes, compliment about boyish charm. we will begin consultations with communities,” and then not to do it. I am always prepared to be convinced I note that the tone of the debate has been one of by the Minister’s boyish charm. When he appeared putting the Government on notice. The Opposition, my before the Select Committee, he told us exactly how hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) many hours he had been in the job, and today he has and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, told us how many weeks and days he has been in the East have all taken that approach, and I hear it in the job, so he is obviously counting very carefully indeed. I spirit in which it was given. The hon. Member for do not expect him to say today that this is due to start Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) is trying to test the House shortly and that by the time we discuss it next year the today, and that is a perfectly legitimate position to take. impact assessment will be ready. I want to know who is I suspect, given the soundings that we have taken in this conducting the impact assessment, how many people debate, that I know what the result will be, but we will are sitting on the panel, what budget will be available, shortly see what happens. and which cities will be visited. I want detail when he I wish to make my remarks reasonably speedily. Again, comes to reply, or else I shall go back to the Library and the key thing for me is protecting the British public. We table a whole series of parliamentary questions—I will talked earlier about the 11 people who have been held 1177 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1178 Terrorism Terrorism [Mr. David Hanson] hope that we will be able to respond shortly. We have already written to the High Court to explain that we for more than 14 days’ pre-charge detention, six of will be responding to the judgment shortly. whom have been held for the maximum 27 to 28 days. As I mentioned, three have been charged and three have Chris Huhne: This is a quick question. Will the Minister been released without charge. I can inform the House set a deadline for the consideration of the admissibility that two are facing trial very shortly on serious charges, of intercept evidence, bearing in mind the precept that and one was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment work always expands to fill the time available? last December. That conviction and sentence may not have happened—the information may not have been Mr. Hanson: I have given a clear commitment, not brought forward—without the 14 to 28 days’ maximum only today but in Home Office questions on Monday, provision being put in place. That is what I believe this that we will respond to this judgment shortly. We are is all about. examining the issue in detail and we have written to the I accept again—this has been debated today—that High Court to explain that we are examining it. As ever, there have not been any incidences in the past two years. I have given a commitment to report back to the House. This is a temporary power and the measure provides for I believe that the hon. Gentleman used the word it to carry on for one further year, if the House supports “Kafkaesque” when he said that people could be charged it today. I hope that we will examine the situation in without knowing what they were being charged with. I relation to potential and actual terrorist activities in the wish to make it clear to the House that that is not the next 12 months and, if need be, make the case that I case; suspects are told why they are being detained and have made today that there are difficult issues that may what allegations are being investigated, and as much need further assessment during that 14 to 28-day period. detail is given as is possible within the constraints of an I wish to touch briefly on a couple of the points that ongoing, fast-moving criminal investigation. have been made. The issue of intercept evidence was The Government have made the case for this measure, mentioned by the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds which seeks to provide for a one-year extension, although (Mr. Ruffley), my right hon. Friend the Member for I appreciate that there is some scepticism. Leicester, East and my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon. As the House will know, the Government Keith Vaz: At the risk of incurring the wrath of my remain committed to using the best evidence available hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East, may I ask to enhance the ability to bring prosecutions. The Privy whether the Minister will deal with impact assessments Council review has taken place under Sir John Chilcot. and risk assessments? We will be considering that and I hope that we will make announcements on these issues shortly. A copy of indicated assent. the progress report of the advisory group has been Mr. Hanson placed in the House Libraries so that Members can look at these serious issues that need to be resolved. Keith Vaz: It seems that the Minister is coming to that—excellent. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon was concerned about judicial oversight, which was mentioned by his Committee. We have always maintained that judicial Mr. Hanson: My right hon. Friend anticipates my authority should be in place to determine the application peroration on these matters—I hope it will be made for extended detention and to ensure that, as is the case with boyish charm. in Northern Ireland, the original legality of the arrest is From my perspective, there are some key issues here. examined when it is questioned by the detainee. He will We have made the case for this measure. I accept that know of the recent case involving Duffy and others in there is a need to examine risk assessment issues—we Northern Ireland, which followed the tragic murders will examine those—and how we provide confidence in that took place earlier this year, in which those issues the community. were addressed as part of the consideration. Chris Huhne rose— Mr. Dismore: My right hon. Friend rightly says that this has always been the Government’s argument and Mr. Hanson: I will give way in a moment, but I am that we have always questioned it. Since last year we trying to answer the questions my right hon. Friend have had the decision of the Grand Chamber of the asked about the assessment that we are making of the European Court of Human Rights in the Belmarsh impact on the community. They are being discussed in cases and the decision of the House of Lords in the government this very week, and I have examined them. control order cases, both of which speak to this very I hope I shall shortly be in a position to make some point about what proper judicial scrutiny means in such announcements on those issues. I cannot make such cases. Both those decisions point to our current announcements today, but I will do so shortly and I arrangements being inadequate. hope that that will satisfy my hon. Friend the Member Mr. Hanson: The recent House of Lords judgment for Hendon and his Committee, and my right hon. was mentioned by a number of hon. Members, including Friend the Member for Leicester, East and his Committee. not only my hon. Friend but my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East and the hon. Member for Mr. Dismore: Again, my right hon. Friend has referred Bury St. Edmunds. We are at the moment considering to assessments of the impact on communities, and I the impact of the judgments in the case of AF and welcome that. However, he has not mentioned the impact others. We do not accept that there is an automatic on individuals—that is a point that my Committee read-across to all proceedings involving closed material, made this year and last year. Will he confirm whether but we are examining the issue and, again, I very much an assessment will be made of the impact on individuals? 1179 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 Prevention and Suppression of 1180 Terrorism Terrorism Will he also answer the point about ensuring that trials Chapman, Ben Illsley, Mr. Eric are not prejudiced by statements made in the media or Clapham, Mr. Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw by Ministers? Clarke,rhMr.Tom Jackson, Glenda Clelland, Mr. David James, Mrs. Siân C. Mr. Hanson: Again, it is a self-evident truth that Clwyd, rh Ann Jenkins, Mr. Brian trials should not be prejudiced by statements to the Coaker, Mr. Vernon Johnson, Ms Diana R. Coffey, Ann Jones, Helen media. I very much hope that everyone involved in these Cohen, Harry Jones, Mr. Kevan issues will examine them. It is important that, as part of Connarty, Michael Jones, Mr. Martyn the detention procedure, people do not have their trials Cooper, Rosie Joyce, Mr. Eric compromised by statements made outside the situation. Cooper, rh Yvette Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Crausby, Mr. David Keeble, Ms Sally Chris Huhne rose— Cruddas, Jon Keeley, Barbara Cryer, Mrs. Ann Kemp, Mr. Fraser Mr. Hanson: I would like to finish the point that I am Cummings, John Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq trying to make in response to my hon. Friend the Cunningham, Mr. Jim Kidney, Mr. David Member for Hendon. He has mentioned assessments of Cunningham, Tony Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter the impact on individuals and on communities. This David, Mr. Wayne Knight, rh Jim week, I have looked at those issues in government, and I Davidson, Mr. Ian Kumar, Dr. Ashok Davies, Mr. Quentin Ladyman, Dr. Stephen shall be making statements on them shortly. I cannot do Denham, rh Mr. John Lammy, rh Mr. David that today, but I hope that my hon. Friend and my right Dismore, Mr. Andrew Lazarowicz, Mark hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East will accept Dobbin, Jim Lepper, David that these matters are before us. Dobson, rh Frank Levitt, Tom Dodds, Mr. Nigel Lewis, Mr. Ivan Chris Huhne: Before the Minister gets to his peroration, Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Linton, Martin I hope that he will deal with the point about the Doran, Mr. Frank Lloyd, Tony flexibility of the threshold test, especially as he has Dowd, Jim MacShane, rh Mr. Denis experience not only of the Home Office but of the Drew, Mr. David Mactaggart, Fiona Ministry of Justice. He is therefore in a very good Eagle, Angela Mallaber, Judy position to tell the House how much extra flexibility is Efford, Clive Mann, John now available to prosecutors to bring charges so that Ellman, Mrs. Louise Marris, Rob these provisions are unnecessary. Will he deal with that Engel, Natascha Marsden, Mr. Gordon Ennis, Jeff McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas issue, because he has not mentioned it? Farrelly, Paul McCabe, Steve Field, rh Mr. Frank McCarthy, Kerry Mr. Hanson: The House may recall that this point Fisher, Mark McCarthy-Fry, Sarah was mentioned during my initial contribution. We have Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonagh, Siobhain made a judgment that the extension from 14 to 28 days Flint, rh Caroline McFadden, rh Mr. Pat is needed because of the threats to our communities Foster, Mr. Michael McFall, rh John from individuals who try to damage them. We are (Worcester) McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne trying to balance the liberties of individuals with the Foster, Michael Jabez McIsaac, Shona liberty of society as a whole, and I commend the order (Hastings and Rye) McKechin, Ann to the House. Gapes, Mike McKenna, Rosemary Gardiner, Barry Merron, Gillian Question put. George, rh Mr. Bruce Miller, Andrew The House divided: Ayes 239, Noes 59. Gerrard, Mr. Neil Moffatt, Laura Goodman, Helen Mole, Chris Division No. 196] [2.10 pm Griffith, Nia Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Griffiths, Nigel Morden, Jessica AYES Grogan, Mr. John Morgan, Julie Ainger, Nick Borrow, Mr. David S. Gwynne, Andrew Mudie, Mr. George Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Hain, rh Mr. Peter Mullin, Mr. Chris Allen, Mr. Graham Brennan, Kevin Hall, Mr. Mike Munn, Meg Anderson, Mr. David Brown, Lyn Hall, Patrick Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Anderson, Janet Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Hanson, rh Mr. David Naysmith, Dr. Doug Atkins, Charlotte Brown, Mr. Russell Harris, Mr. Tom Norris, Dan Austin, Mr. Ian Browne, rh Des Healey, rh John O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Austin, John Bryant, Chris Henderson, Mr. Doug O’Hara, Mr. Edward Bailey, Mr. Adrian Buck, Ms Karen Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Olner, Mr. Bill Baird, Vera Burden, Richard Heppell, Mr. John Osborne, Sandra Banks, Gordon Burgon, Colin Hesford, Stephen Owen, Albert Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Butler, Ms Dawn Heyes, David Palmer, Dr. Nick Battle, rh John Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Hill, rh Keith Pearson, Ian Bayley, Hugh Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Pope, Mr. Greg Beckett, rh Margaret Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hope, Phil Pound, Stephen Begg, Miss Anne Cairns, David Howarth, rh Mr. George Prentice, Mr. Gordon Bell, Sir Stuart Campbell, Mr. Alan Howells, rh Dr. Kim Prosser, Gwyn Benton, Mr. Joe Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Purnell, rh James Betts, Mr. Clive Caton, Mr. Martin Humble, Mrs. Joan Rammell, Bill Blackman, Liz Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hutton, rh Mr. John Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Challen, Colin Iddon, Dr. Brian Reed, Mr. Jamie 1181 Prevention and Suppression of 9 JULY 2009 1182 Terrorism Reid, rh John Thornberry, Emily Council Tax Robertson, John Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Rooney, Mr. Terry Todd, Mr. Mark Roy, Mr. Frank Touhig, rh Mr. Don 2.22 pm Roy, Lindsay Trickett, Jon The Minister for Regional Economic Development and Ruane, Chris Turner, Dr. Desmond Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): I beg to move, Ruddock, Joan Ussher, Kitty Russell, Christine Vaz, rh Keith That the draft Council Tax Limitation (Maximum Amounts) Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Vis, Dr. Rudi (England) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on Seabeck, Alison Walley, Joan 10 June, be approved. Sharma, Mr. Virendra Waltho, Lynda The draft order that I present for the approval of the Sheridan, Jim Ward, Claire House was laid under section 52F(7) of the Local Simon, Mr. Siôn Watson, Mr. Tom Government Finance Act 1992, which was inserted by Singh, Mr. Marsha Whitehead, Dr. Alan the Local Government Act 1999. In my view, the provisions Skinner, Mr. Dennis Wicks, rh Malcolm of the order are compatible with the European convention Slaughter, Mr. Andy Williams, Mrs. Betty on human rights. Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Wills, rh Mr. Michael Smith, Ms Angela C. Wilson, Phil The draft order sets out the maximum 2009-10 budget (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Winnick, Mr. David requirement for Surrey police authority, which means Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie that we are proposing to cap the authority in-year. Smith, Geraldine Woolas, Mr. Phil Subject to the House’s approval, I will make the order Smith, rh Jacqui Wright, Mr. Anthony and issue a notice to Surrey police authority informing Snelgrove, Anne Wright, David it of its maximum budget requirement for the year. The Soulsby, Sir Peter Wright, Mr. Iain authority will then be required to recalculate its budget Spellar, rh Mr. John Wright, Dr. Tony requirement at or below the level of its cap. It will also Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wyatt, Derek have to arrange for the relevant billing authorities to Strang, rh Dr. Gavin send out revised council tax bills for the current year. Stuart, Ms Gisela Tellers for the Ayes: Taylor, Ms Dari Mark Tami and Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): The order is Thomas, Mr. Gareth Mary Creagh based on the notional budget, and the notional council tax as a result of the notional budget. Will the right NOES hon. Lady explain, given the huge difference between Alexander, Danny Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn the actual and the notional, how the notional figure was Brake, Tom Mackinlay, Andrew arrived at, and why, if the police authority—rather than Breed, Mr. Colin Mason, John the police force—received notification that the Government Brooke, Annette McDonnell, John were using the notional rather than the actual and set Cable, Dr. Vincent Moore, Mr. Michael the actual within hours of the notional, the Government Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Mulholland, Greg did not return to accept the actual in their calculation? Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Öpik, Lembit Corbyn, Jeremy Pugh, Dr. John Davey, Mr. Edward Ms Winterton: The introduction of a notional budget, Rennie, Willie Farron, Tim which is a change from the previous rather inflexible Rogerson, Dan Featherstone, Lynne system, means that the Government, rather than using Rowen, Paul Foster, Mr. Don a straight, crude capping system, have been able to Russell, Bob George, Andrew allow a budget to be set, which is what happened with Gidley, Sandra Simpson, Alan Surrey last year. It was made quite clear to the authority Goldsworthy, Julia Smith, Sir Robert that in calculating this year’s budget the Government Harris, Dr. Evan Stunell, Andrew would agree to it on the assumption of the budget that Harvey, Nick Swinson, Jo would have been set if the Government had not made Heath, Mr. David Taylor, Dr. Richard an exception for Surrey last year. Today, we are taking Hemming, John Teather, Sarah this action because last year we allowed Surrey to have a Thurso, John Holmes, Paul notional budget, but it was always clear that when we Webb, Steve Horwood, Martin considered what would be allowed this year we would Howarth, David Williams, Mark Hughes, Simon Williams, Mr. Roger return to that figure. Huhne, Chris Williams, Stephen Hunter, Mark Willis, Mr. Phil Sir Paul Beresford: I follow that. The difficulty with Jones, Lynne Willott, Jenny that argument is that it would be more sensible to use Keetch, Mr. Paul Wishart, Pete the actual budget, which Surrey used in its calculation, Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Younger-Ross, Richard in spite of the notional from the previous year. Kramer, Susan Lamb, Norman Tellers for the Noes: Ms Winterton: The hon. Gentleman’s assumption—those Laws, Mr. David Mr. Adrian Sanders and on his Front Bench might think that this is the way to Leech, Mr. John Mr. Alan Reid operate, although I am not sure—would effectively mean that authorities that had set a notional budget, Question accordingly agreed to. therefore allowing them a higher budget, would be able Resolved, to continue to do that year on year, which would not be fair on other authorities. The alternative would be to That the draft Terrorism Act 2006 (Disapplication of Section 25) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 18 May, be return to the crude capping system that applied under approved. the previous Administration. I shall return to some of the background issues later in my speech. 1183 Council Tax9 JULY 2009 Council Tax 1184

During the debate on the provisional local government done, but that is an inevitable consequence of setting an finance settlement on 26 November 2008, my predecessor excessive increase and being capped in-year. All authorities as Minister for Local Government, my right hon. Friend know that, and that the best way of avoiding rebilling is the Member for Wentworth (John Healey), said that we not to set an excessive increase in the first place. expected to see an average council tax increase in 2009-10 Of the 15 authorities that had previously been set substantially below 5 per cent. He also made it clear notional budget requirements, Surrey is the first to have that the Government were prepared to act against excessive set an excessive increase in the subsequent year. As I increases made by any authority, including requiring have said, it is also true that the capping powers introduced them to re-bill if necessary. by this Government are more flexible than they were Three-quarters of authorities set increases below 4 per previously. Under the regime that operated before, we cent., almost 40 per cent. set increases below 3 per cent. would have had to designate Surrey police authority and a further 23 authorities either set no increase or are last year: instead, we were able to nominate it. That is reducing their bills. However, two authorities did set an important difference. excessive increases this year. On 26 March, my predecessor Even after capping, Surrey police authority will get a announced to the House that the Government were 2.5 per cent. grant increase from the Government. It “designating” Surrey and Derbyshire police authorities. will get a total of £5.7 million extra compared to last He proposed maximum budget requirements for the year, and it is also being allowed to set a band D council two authorities at levels that would bring them within tax increase of 3.2 per cent. That is higher than the the capping principles that were determined by the average increase in England of 3 per cent. Secretary of State for 2009-10. In his written statement to the House on 13 May, my Robert Neill: I am very grateful to the Minister for predecessor said that both designated authorities had giving way again and, as always, she is being most challenged their proposed maximum budget requirements. generous. My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley He and the former Minister responsible for policing, my (Sir Paul Beresford) mentioned the cost of rebilling, hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Mr. Coaker), met and the Minister referred in part to that. Was any both police authorities to hear their cases in person. attempt made to consult and find out the rebilling cost Having carefully considered the representations made before a decision was taken? How can she assert that the by the authorities, and having taken into account all action was proportionate if Ministers did not know relevant information, the Government decided to take what the cost of rebilling would be, compared with the following action: to cancel the designation of Derbyshire what might be recovered? police authority and to nominate it instead, with a notional budget requirement for 2009-10 that will be used in any future capping comparisons; and to proceed Ms Winterton: As I have said, any authority that is with the designation of Surrey police authority with a going to set an excessive increase knows that it will have maximum budget requirement at the level proposed on to carry out in-year rebilling. It is that authority’s 26 March—£197,206,000. The draft order therefore responsibility to take that into account when it decides covers Surrey police authority only. We believe that the to set a higher increase than anywhere else. The hon. proposed action in the draft order, and the separate Gentleman may feel it is right for the council tax payers action that we are taking in respect of Derbyshire, of Surrey to pay an extra £1.6 million. Presumably that represent a measured and proportionate response to is his proposition. However, we believe that there is a those authorities’ excessive increases. duty on the Government to curb excessive council tax increases, particularly in difficult economic times. Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I am We recognise the inflexibility of the system introduced very grateful to the Minister for giving way. She just by the hon. Gentleman’s Administration. We adjusted said that she regarded the action in respect of Surrey as the system, and for a number of years there was no measured and proportionate, but what evidence base capping whatever, but we have to take a balanced view. was used to draw a distinction between the Derbyshire We are trying to get the balance right, to ensure that case and the Surrey case? council tax payers are protected from excessive increases, particularly during these difficult times. It is not a bolt Ms Winterton: I shall come to the difference between from the blue. No authority can think, “Oh goodness the two but, briefly, Surrey was given a notional budget me, we didn’t think about the rebilling costs.” Authorities last year yet still introduced an excessive increase this know about the costs when they set the increase, so it is year. Ministers listened to the representations that were their responsibility. However, as I said, although last made and then came to their decision. As I said, even year Lincolnshire police authority said that rebilling though Surrey moved to notional budget last year, it would cost about £1 million, the actual figure came out still imposed an excessive increase. at £380,000. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree Sir Paul Beresford: When assessing the pros and cons that it is important that we see the actual costs. My right of the decision, was it taken into account that saving hon. and hon. Friends met the authorities and listened £1.6 million would cost £1.2 million in rebilling? In my to their representations, but if there is the flexibility for constituency, that works out to a cost per head of £4.65, a notional budget one year and they still set excessive but council tax payers below band F will not make any increases it is important that the Government take saving above that. action. Ms Winterton: We will find out Surrey’s actual costs Robert Neill: I hope not to trespass too much on the in due course. Last year, Lincolnshire police authority Minister’s time, but will she deal with this simple point estimated rebilling costs at £1 million, but the actual for me? Given that she says we must look to the actual cost was £380,000. It is true that rebilling has to be figures—she quotes the Lincolnshire example—is it not 1185 Council Tax9 JULY 2009 Council Tax 1186

[Robert Neill] Co-ordination for introducing the measure with her customary charm and courtesy, but I am sorry to say all the more important to make at least some inquiry that her having done so does not alter the fact that the into what Surrey’s billing costs will be? Unless the case is not terribly good. However nicely the case is put, Government know the actual costs, how can they decide council tax on band D properties has more than doubled whether the action is proportionate and in the overall in the Government’s time in office, so it is a bit rich for interests of council tax payers? Perhaps there is a gap in the Government to lecture anyone, including a police the system that should be looked into. authority, on increases in expenditure, particularly as the Audit Commission has given Surrey police authority Ms Winterton: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman’s policy the highest rating for value for money. will be that whatever figure is given will be taken into My party introduced capping, and I accept that, but account in any future response. Of course, Surrey produced the world has rather moved on since. As time has gone an estimate when challenging the cap we proposed, and by, it has become more and more apparent that the that was taken into account. I merely point out that current system of capping is past its sell-by date, as I sometimes—as in Lincolnshire last year—there can be a told the right hon. Lady’s predecessor a year ago when slight difference between the estimated costs given at we debated the matter. The Surrey case very much the time of the challenge to the cap and the costs that demonstrates that. The right hon. Lady made a good actually arise. deal of the proportionate nature of the response, but with respect, I point out that the evidence suggests that Sir Paul Beresford: I will mention it to the right hon. the response is not genuinely proportionate. Lady if I receive any letters from band D council tax There was a Westminster Hall debate on 11 June, I payers, particularly those who pay by 10 monthly think, dealing with the subject. Neither the right hon. instalments, thanking us and the Government for the Lady nor I was able to be present, but I know that we reduction, which will be about 32p a month. both read the transcript. Ten out of the 11 Surrey Members of Parliament attended; the other sent his Ms Winterton: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will views via one of his colleagues. The hon. Member for pass on any representations he receives. Chesterfield (Paul Holmes) was there, too. It was a As I have said, we think the response to the different lively debate, and every one of those Surrey Members authorities is proportionate. In this instance, Derbyshire of Parliament expressed the same view: the response has been treated the same as Surrey was last year. was not proportionate. The figure quoted clearly then—it It is worth remembering that two years ago—in has never been contradicted by any Government source— 2007-08—the authority’s council tax precept stood at was that about £1.2 million would be expended to £171.27. It set an excessive 9.7 per cent. increase last recover £1.6 million, so all in all, the Government may year, and was designated for capping and in-year rebilling, get back about £400 million. That is not a proportionate but, as with Derbyshire this year, the designation was response, given the background. cancelled and instead the authority was nominated and Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): It is £400,000. set a notional budget requirement. In other words, the authority was allowed to keep its excessive increase in Robert Neill: The hon. Gentleman is quite right; I am full in 2008-09, and it avoided any rebilling costs for the very grateful. The sum is so small that one could almost last financial year. forget about it, in the overall scheme of things. It was However, this year, the authority set a precept of also pointed out that although the Government are £197.10, which is 15.1 per cent. higher than its 2007-08 posing as a defender of the council tax payer, there is a precept. By contrast, the average council tax increase certain irony, because there is not evidence of a level for England over those two years was 7 per cent. As I playing field. Under this Government, in the first eight have said, even with in-year capping, Surrey is left years of the Metropolitan Police Authority’s existence, with an actual precept increase of 3.2 per cent., and its precept was allowed nearly to quadruple, without £5.7 million is going into policing there this year. any intervention from the Government by way of a Out of 421 authorities, including 37 police authorities, threat of capping. It is interesting that no action was Surrey is the only one that has set an excessive increase taken. Whether that had anything to do with the political for two years in succession. The current economic climate complexion of the Mayor who then ran the police makes it even more important that local authorities authority is difficult to say, but the opaque nature of the keep council tax under control. This Government increased way in which the system works sometimes causes people Government grant for local services by 39 per cent. in to question whether decisions are taken on an entirely real terms in the first 10 years after we took office. The objective basis. 2007 comprehensive spending review provided a further The treatment of the two police authorities is interesting. £8.9 billion up to 2010-11. I urge hon. Members to One wonders whether the treatment was entirely due to support the order, because I believe that it is the right what I have just mentioned, or whether the Labour way to strike the balance, and to ensure that while party hoped that Derbyshire was a county council it authorities have extra money, excessive council tax payments might just have hung on to in an election that was about do not fall on council tax payers. to come up as the orders were being laid. The ruse did not work, of course, and I suspect that Labour will not have to worry about any shire counties being under its 2.41 pm control for some considerable time. Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I am That does not alter the overall picture. As hon. Members sure that all hon. Members will want to thank the from Surrey explained very well in the debate, the Minister for Regional Economic Development and situation is a consequence not of profligacy on the part 1187 Council Tax9 JULY 2009 Council Tax 1188 of the Surrey police authority, but of unfair funding Last year my hon. Friend the Member for that seems to leave the Surrey police—a force that faces Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) spoke in the equivalent considerable policing challenges, which were well set debate, making many of the same points as the hon. out in the debate by the Members representing the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst has just made county—one of the worst-funded police forces in respect and with which I concur. If a police authority, in this of the pressures that it faces. I know that my hon. case, or a local authority has been put in place to Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) represent a community, it is best placed to set priorities will speak in the debate, so I leave him to develop that and to engage with and consult its community, as I point in more detail. know has happened in this case, to ensure that there is Against that background, despite the Minister’s valiant support for the proposed funding level. I am surprised attempt to present the order in her usual reasonable that there are not more Surrey Members here to debate way, there is a bit of cheek in the Government capping the issue, but the hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Surrey and claiming to put right a problem of their own Beresford) is in his place and has already made a creation, because of the way in which the capping significant contribution. regime has become too blunt as time has gone on, and the lack of transparency in the funding formula. Sir Paul Beresford: If the hon. Gentleman looked at If there is an issue about the people of Surrey’s the debate that took place in Westminster Hall, he priorities in relation to the policing budgets, and about would find that 10 out of the 11 Surrey Members were what they think is the appropriate level to expend given present. We made it quite clear where we stood, and the the pressure of policing demands on the county, the Government just turned a deaf ear. right way is to let them decide. Rather than a decision being taken on high, with the right hon. Lady or any of Dan Rogerson: I certainly appreciate that the hon. her successors arriving in some vice-regal capacity to Gentleman has taken the trouble to attend and contribute rescue them, it would be much better to let the people of to this debate. Surrey have a vote and decide whether the proposed I have contacted locally elected representatives in precept rise is excessive. Surrey about the issues that are being debated locally. That would be a genuinely democratic result in which Their view is that, at all the local liaison forums and people could all have faith. It would save us all having meetings throughout the area, people have made it to go through the annual ritual of the debate about absolutely clear that they are behind the police authority what is notional and what is actual—I shall not go in protecting front-line policing. As the hon. Member down that route—and it would save having to go through for Bromley and Chislehurst said, the authority has the annual ritual of householders being somewhat bemused taken steps to be as efficient as it can, as the Audit when they open the rebilled bills for comparatively Commission has noted. The authority has some of the small amounts. lowest costs and grants per head of the population. It There was a time when capping had to be used to has already looked to cut office staff, and it has made constrain large increases in council tax bills that went senior officers redundant, so it has done what it feels it well beyond the norm. We are getting to the stage where can to be as efficient as possible. a comparatively small excess on the part of an authority The police authority has reached the stage where it is which, on the face of it, has a history of not having considering front-line policing, and local people are received its fair share of the available pot, is being dealt understandably concerned. They have taken the trouble with in a manifestly disproportionate way. With respect, to engage with the issue, and they have indicated their clodhopping might be a more accurate description of support for the authority’s decision to level a rate that is how the matter is being dealt with. slightly higher than that which the Government feel As on previous occasions, we do not intend to divide appropriate—hence, we find ourselves where we are the House, but we want to register the fact that the today. situation is probably an indication that the system is Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to approaching its sell-by date, and that next year others check the following statistic, and I am sure that the may have to put in place a different system to make sure Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but one locally that the issues are decided by voters, not in a debate that elected representative told me that the grant per head of would seem somewhat unreal to people in the county population in Surrey is lower now than 10 years ago. of Surrey. That conclusion is arrived at after taking account not of inflation, but of the basic funding. It highlights the 2.48 pm pressures on the police authority, and it shows that, by Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I agree with increasing the precept to that level, the authority had to much of the speech made by the hon. Member for take action that it did not want to take. Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), as is often the The views of the public are on the record, and I am case because he speaks very reasonably on such issues. sure that local newspapers and media will have followed He teased the Government a little, but it is time that his the debate and reported it widely. The former Member party was teased as well on the topic of capping. Let us for Guildford, Sue Doughty, has run a petition on be honest. The measure was introduced by the Government the issue, and local authority members in the district, whom he supported. He proposes a referendum when borough and county tiers to whom I have spoken feel an above-prediction increase is proposed in an area. that the police authority has made every effort to be as That is an interesting concept and I generally approve efficient as possible. There is no option now but to try of such a method, but we have discussed the cost of a to raise the money locally in order to protect what is an rebilling exercise, and the cost of running a referendum important, front-line policing service on which Surrey might be rather high as well. communities rely. 1189 Council Tax9 JULY 2009 Council Tax 1190

[Dan Rogerson] what I am saying later. The real-terms reduction in grant is 39 per cent.—a considerable clobbering for A number of issues have been raised in Westminster Surrey police. Hall and in another place. noble Lords and baronesses This saga’s big complication, which has only just have questioned the Government on the topic and been touched on, is that the Government have made raised issues about the county’s proximity to London their calculations on a notional budget and hence a and its effect on policing issues, and the county’s transport national council tax. In June last year, the chief executive issues. I shall not revisit all those questions, but I should of Surrey police authority was informed that the Secretary say that my party clearly opposes capping and does not of State had decided to nominate the authority for think it necessary. The principle should be that locally capping purposes and that it would be given a notional accountable people are in place to take decisions on budget. However, no constraint or capping level related behalf of their communities. Had the authorities completely to that notional budget was mentioned at the time. ignored the will of the local community, gone against it When, in contrast to the police authority, Surrey police and not taken steps to ensure its support, as they might force started doing its budgetary calculations, the idea have done in times gone by, the Government might have of a notional budget was raised with the Government had slightly more of an argument for their actions as a precautionary measure. In a reply dated 25 July today. However, it is clear that the people of Surrey are 2008, Department for Communities and Local Government willing to pay the increase to protect the front-line lawyers replied that services that they need in their communities. “there is no requirement on the Surrey police authority to calculate The point that the hon. Member for Mole Valley a notional level of Council Tax (based on the notional budget made about the pittance that will be saved from most requirement) for 2008/09 and Surrey police authority will set people’s council tax bills shows the arbitrariness of such their budget requirement and their precept for 2009/10…in the action. It has been taken not in a measured way by normal way”. looking at the details of the case, but in order to hold At the end of October, Surrey police force—the force, the line and send out a signal to other authorities. not the authority—was informed that if Ministers decided I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Bromley to use their capping powers, a notional council tax and Chislehurst feels that his colleagues will not be able might be used. Again, there was a warning that no to oppose this measure; I suspect that they have aspirations decisions had been made. In early November, Surrey for where they might be in a year or so, and they may be police force—again, not the authority—sought further concerned about setting precedents. That, however, is clarification and was told that the police authority was for the future, and we will see what the electorate make to be informed on the position regarding notional council of that possibility. tax in due course. That confirmation did not arrive with If the debate on localism, to which all parties have the police authority until 28 January 2009—literally been contributing, is to have any meaning, it is crucial within hours of the actual budget and precept being set. that we allow locally accountable bodies to speak up for The capping designation now is that Surrey police their communities, deliver services and levy taxes that authority is faced with the ludicrous situation of rebilling those communities have demonstrated they are prepared all Surrey council tax payers for a minimal reduction. to pay. I shall listen to the rest of the debate, but I am The squeeze on Surrey police authority’s grant and its minded to divide the House on this motion. budget ceiling means that it has had to cut staff progressively. It has calculated its manpower levels for the years 2.55 pm 2009-10 to 2012-13. It commences, before the capping, with a reduction of 159 personnel for this year, moving Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): The Minister to a total reduction of 373 policemen and women should understand from my record that I am in favour in 2012-13. This is before designation and rebilling of tight budgets, value for money and efficiency—and take effect. proportionality as well. The most interesting thing for me about this debate is that I expected to support The cost of designation is a further £1.6 million cut. enthusiastically my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley The cumulative effect over the same period is a further and Chislehurst (Robert Neill); unusually, however, I reduction of 55 policemen and women. The rebilling find myself supporting many of the points made by the will cost Surrey police authority £1.2 million. It has hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), used the rebilling authorities—the district councils—to although not necessarily the theory behind them. The assess this. That translates into a further reduction of hon. Gentleman has certainly done a little homework— 24 personnel—24 fewer policemen and women. In my presumably, it was for the Westminster Hall debate—on area, Mole Valley, that works out at about £4.65 per the background to the situation of Surrey police. bill. That means that at band D, it costs £1.47 more Surrey police force and Surrey police authority are than the reduction: not until band F is the negative very efficient, and have had plaudits from organisations position reversed. such as the Audit Commission that have looked at I hope that the Minister can visualise the huge sigh of them. The police force receives the lowest grant per relief in every band D household when their council tax head of population of any police force. It is rather bill drops through the door for the second time, giving galling to hear from Ministers about increases and how them a huge annual reduction of £3.18. As most people much money has been put into police forces nationally pay in 10 monthly instalments, the reduction will be and then to look at the reality for Surrey. The grant for 32p a month. Most people will be confused; some will Surrey police has decreased in real terms. In 1997, it be bemused. If they are aware of the cost to their received £96 per head of population; now, 12 years later, already strapped police force of the rebilling, in addition it receives £93 per head. [Interruption.] I am sorry that to the capping, they will be very unhappy, if not furious. the Minister is not listening; perhaps she will read Local authorities throughout Surrey will have to reset 1191 Council Tax9 JULY 2009 Council Tax 1192 their direct debits for every council tax payer paying by was done by local authorities without their having to go those means. Many thousands of Surrey residents who to the Government, cap in hand, and say, “Please can pay by bankers order will have to send a new bankers we do this?” order form, probably costing 20 per cent. of the total Some of the first signs that we were abandoning that saving just in the stamp and the envelope, and more if came in the 1970s. The famous Clay Cross rent rebels one includes the costs to the bank of changing everything. took action back in 1973, for example. Then in the It is a ludicrous, disproportionate situation. Bearing 1980s, the Conservative Government introduced rigid in mind the tiny saving, the Department could easily set rate capping. Labour opposed that in the 1980s and the designation to next year, but for Surrey police 1990s, but when it came to power in 1997, it continued authority alone, Ministers have decided to place a further the system. The Minister said that the Government had cut, with the expensive, unnecessary, bureaucratic rebilling. made it more flexible, and there is some truth in that, Looming in the background is the prospect of a judicial but they none the less continued the rigid control from review, which will be interesting, as I think I am correct the centre over locally elected bodies and local in saying that nowhere in the new legislation does the accountability. All the talk of devolution, accountability word “notional” appear in relation to capping as regards and localism is absolutely meaningless unless we give either budgets or council tax. However, that is not my real financial power to local democratically elected decision or the Minister’s—it will be for the court. people. The additional cuts to pay for this rebilling have Who should decide whether a budget, in this case meant a lesser, more stretched police presence in difficult a police authority’s budget, is excessive? It should be circumstances that will be exaggerated by the current local people. In Surrey, and in Derbyshire, which the economic climate. The Government do not have to Minister mentioned about nine times—I was counting—the require a rebilling, and common sense demands that police authorities got the full support of the local they do not. population through consultation groups. People said, “We think that the police in this area are so underfunded, 3.3 pm under-strength and understaffed that we are prepared Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): In the course of to pay a higher than normal council tax increase to this short debate, three issues have arisen. First, there is support them.” the concept of a notional budget and whether that has In both counties, it was a cross-party process. I know any status in law. As we have heard, that issue may be for a fact that it was in Derbyshire, and I understand going to two judicial reviews, one relating to Surrey and from the Westminster Hall debate, in which I took part one to Derbyshire. Secondly, what is an excessive budget? and in which, as we have heard, 10 of the 11 Surrey Who decides what an excessive budget is, and what are Members spoke, that it was in Surrey as well. It appeared the criteria for deciding that there is one? Thirdly, if from the consultations with electors’groups and community there is an excessive budget, who takes the decision to groups that there was widespread support across all stop it and to punish the local body—council, fire areas for setting the budget that the Government then authority, or, as in this case, police authority—that is decided was excessive. introducing it? We have heard about the principle of local democracy Sir Paul Beresford: Surrey’s budget is supported about and local accountability. Over the past year or two, a 49 per cent. by council tax and about 51 per cent. by the big buzzword in the Conservative party and the Labour Government, so local toes are being trod on very badly. party has been localism. We hear a lot of talk about localism, but see almost no evidence of any move Paul Holmes: I thank the hon. Gentleman. Surrey is towards delivering it. Localism—local democratic one of the great exceptions, as it is one of the police accountability—means that the local community elects authorities for which as much as 50 per cent. of the its police, fire and local government authorities and money comes from local people. I remember a previous decides what is best for local people. It decides on levels Police Minister, two or three Ministers ago, saying a of council tax, on what services to introduce or cut and couple of years ago when we debated the underfunding on how to deliver the wishes that local people have of Derbyshire police that one way forward was to use expressed through the ballot box. That is localism, the Surrey example of switching the emphasis from giving real power to local people, as happens in just central Government to locally elected bodies and council about every other democracy in the world. tax. That was about three Police Ministers ago and In Germany, France, Sweden, Norway, Finland, any nothing has happened since, but if we do that, it will of the 50 states of the USA or the provinces of Canada, take us back to the principles of accountability, democracy, people cannot understand the system that we operate in local devolution and localism. which 90 per cent. of taxation is brought to No. 11 If those principles mean anything, they must mean Downing street, and then some of it is handed out with that local people make decisions through the ballot box, strings attached. Local authorities, and through them and their elected representatives decide on the level of the police and fire authorities, get about 20 to 25 per council tax, local income tax or whatever taxation is in cent. of their money from local council tax and the rest, use. If people are unhappy about it because the council with strings attached, from the central Government tax increase or in this case the police authority precept block grant. is excessive, they will decide that through the ballot box. The system is alien to most democracies in the world. That is what ballot boxes are about, and it is what local It was alien to how we operated in this country in the democracy should be about. 19th century, when major leaders such as Joseph There is a key question that I want the Minister to Chamberlain in Birmingham pioneered the first public answer, because we did not get an answer when I posed transport systems, gas, sewerage and all the rest. That it in the Westminster Hall debate. When the Government 1193 Council Tax9 JULY 2009 Council Tax 1194

[Paul Holmes] 1997 and 2009, and an increase of £32.5 million, which is 80 per cent. in real terms, between 2001 and 2009-10. use this power—I believe wrongly, because things should There has therefore been a big increase. Even with the be decided locally—how do they decide that a budget is cap this year, Surrey will receive £5.7 million more. excessive? We have heard all the detailed statistics showing To answer the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Paul that Surrey is an efficient police authority, as the Audit Holmes), capping principles were announced to the Commission has stated. Derbyshire is the same. The House on 26 March. They were: a budget requirement police authority is very efficient and has made many of 4 per cent.; a council tax of 5 per cent. Although it is backroom cuts in the past few years. The Government obviously up to Surrey police authority to decide how and the auditors have praised it for doing that. There is to spend its budget, its figures show reserves of no fat to be cut. As the Government admit, every year £9.4 million, of which £5.6 million is not earmarked. As since 2006, when they introduced a new funding formula, I have said, it is up to the authority to decide how it uses Derbyshire’s police budget has been underfunded by that money. £5 million. This year, Derbyshire has increased the precept by £1.6 million to try to overcome some of that. Sir Paul Beresford: If the right hon. Lady looks If it is underfunded by £5 million a year and it has further behind those figures, she will realise that, as a increased council tax by £1.6 million to offset roughly a percentage, they are below the level required by the third of the underfunding, how can the budget be Audit Commission. excessive? If one should have £5 million more and one raises £1.6 million, one is still underfunded by Ms Winterton: I should also add that, because of the £3.4 million. increases that the Government have put into local According to the Government’s figures, in 2006, 2007 government and policing, police numbers in Surrey in and 2008, Derbyshire police were grossly underfunded, September 2008 were 262 higher than in March 1997. but the Government will not let Derbyshire police authority, On 30 September, Surrey had 1,882 police officers and with the backing of all three political parties and community 1,721 police support staff, which is 994 more than in consultation throughout Derbyshire, do anything about 1997. I think that we have taken the right decision in it. That is illogical. Next year, Derbyshire could well be this instance. in the same position as Surrey. What was done to Surrey last year has been done to Derbyshire this year. The Sir Paul Beresford: If we extrapolate the budget that Government have said that they will not make Derbyshire results from the capping, the designation and the anticipated rebill or cap it directly, but they will knock £1.6 million grant, the reality is that Surrey will lose 373 policemen off next year’s money. Derbyshire, which has among the and women over the next three years, and, because of lowest numbers of police officers per head of population the capping, the designation and the rebilling, a further of any shire county in England, will have to lose 55. So, to use the Prime Minister’s approach, this is a 60 front-line police officers by next April to meet what negative increase. is capping, in all but name, this year. I repeat that I would like the Minister to answer, not Ms Winterton: I think that I have explained fully the so much the questions about accountability and localism, way in which we have changed what was a rigid system which we have debated previously, but the question that so that, last year, we were able to give Surrey a notional I asked in the Westminster Hall debate at the start of budget, meaning that it would not have to rebill. However, June. How do the Government decide what constitutes it has always been made clear that the changes that were an excessive budget in the case of Surrey and of Derbyshire? made last year would be taken into account this year. If Derbyshire, on the Government’s admission, is The authority ignored the warnings that it was given. underfunded by £5 million, how can raising £1.6 million As I have said, Surrey is the only authority that, having towards that be excessive, when it makes up only about been notified of a notional budget requirement, set an a third of the shortfall? excessive increase in the subsequent year. I have to say to all the hon. Members who have spoken that, having 3.11 pm considered the case, the Government have no doubt that firm action needs to be taken. Ms Rosie Winterton: I recognise the concerns that hon. Members have expressed today. I emphasise that I think that the hon. Member for Bromley and capping is not something that we do lightly. Indeed, as I Chislehurst (Robert Neill) raised the issue of judicial explained earlier, we have introduced a much more review— flexible system. In some years, no action has been taken, but we need to examine the overall situation and Robert Neill indicated dissent. ensure that we get the right balance between local accountability and the Government’s role in ensuring Ms Winterton: Perhaps it was the hon. Member for that council tax rises are not excessive. Of course, it is, Mole Valley. I understand that this morning the judicial first and foremost, for local authorities to set their review application was refused on the papers. Of course council tax and justify it to local electors. However, we there is a right to appeal—a right to request an oral also have a duty to protect council tax payers from hearing—but the application was refused this morning. excessive increases. I emphasise again that we do not take these decisions I want briefly to comment on several points that have lightly. We have to balance the issues of service provision been made. The hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul and local accountability with ensuring that council tax Beresford) talked about the overall financial situation. payers do not face excessive council tax bills. That is There has been a total increase of £48.4 million of why we have taken this action, and I hope that the Government grant—23 per cent. in real terms—between House will support the order. 1195 Council Tax9 JULY 2009 Council Tax 1196

Question put. Lewis, Mr. Ivan Russell, Christine Linton, Martin Salter, Martin The House divided: Ayes 239, Noes 33. Lloyd, Tony Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Division No. 197] [3.18 pm Mackinlay, Andrew Seabeck, Alison Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Mr. Virendra AYES Mallaber, Judy Sheridan, Jim Mann, John Simon, Mr. Siôn Abbott, Ms Diane Engel, Natascha Marris, Rob Simpson, Alan Ainger, Nick Etherington, Bill Marsden, Mr. Gordon Singh, Mr. Marsha Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Farrelly, Paul McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Skinner, Mr. Dennis Allen, Mr. Graham Fisher, Mark McCabe, Steve Slaughter, Mr. Andy Anderson, Mr. David Fitzpatrick, Jim McCafferty, Chris Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Anderson, Janet Flint, rh Caroline McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Ms Angela C. Atkins, Charlotte Foster, Mr. Michael McCarthy-Fry, Sarah (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Austin, Mr. Ian (Worcester) McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Austin, John Foster, Michael Jabez McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, Geraldine Bailey, Mr. Adrian (Hastings and Rye) McFall, rh John Smith, rh Jacqui Baird, Vera Gapes, Mike McGovern, Mr. Jim Snelgrove, Anne Banks, Gordon Gardiner, Barry McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Soulsby, Sir Peter Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Gerrard, Mr. Neil McIsaac, Shona Spellar, rh Mr. John Battle, rh John Gilroy, Linda McKechin, Ann Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Bayley, Hugh Goodman, Helen McKenna, Rosemary Stoate, Dr. Howard Beckett, rh Margaret Griffith, Nia McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Begg, Miss Anne Griffiths, Nigel Meale, Mr. Alan Stuart, Ms Gisela Benton, Mr. Joe Grogan, Mr. John Merron, Gillian Tami, Mark Blackman, Liz Gwynne, Andrew Michael, rh Alun Thomas, Mr. Gareth Borrow, Mr. David S. Hain, rh Mr. Peter Miller, Andrew Thornberry, Emily Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Hall, Patrick Moffatt, Laura Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Brennan, Kevin Hanson, rh Mr. David Mole, Chris Todd, Mr. Mark Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Harris, Mr. Tom Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Touhig, rh Mr. Don Brown, Mr. Russell Healey, rh John Morgan, Julie Trickett, Jon Browne, rh Des Henderson, Mr. Doug Mudie, Mr. George Turner, Dr. Desmond Bryant, Chris Hendrick, Mr. Mark Mullin, Mr. Chris Turner, Mr. Neil Buck, Ms Karen Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Munn, Meg Ussher, Kitty Burden, Richard Heppell, Mr. John Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Vis, Dr. Rudi Burgon, Colin Hesford, Stephen Naysmith, Dr. Doug Walley, Joan Butler, Ms Dawn Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Norris, Dan Waltho, Lynda Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Heyes, David O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Ward, Claire Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Hill, rh Keith O’Hara, Mr. Edward Watson, Mr. Tom Cairns, David Hoey, Kate Olner, Mr. Bill Whitehead, Dr. Alan Campbell, Mr. Alan Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Osborne, Sandra Wicks, rh Malcolm Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hope, Phil Owen, Albert Williams, Mrs. Betty Caton, Mr. Martin Hopkins, Kelvin Palmer, Dr. Nick Wills, rh Mr. Michael Cawsey, Mr. Ian Howarth, rh Mr. George Pope, Mr. Greg Wilson, Phil Challen, Colin Howells, rh Dr. Kim Pound, Stephen Winnick, Mr. David Chapman, Ben Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Prentice, Mr. Gordon Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clapham, Mr. Michael Humble, Mrs. Joan Prosser, Gwyn Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hutton, rh Mr. John Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Rammell, Bill Coaker, Mr. Vernon Iddon, Dr. Brian Woolas, Mr. Phil Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Coffey, Ann Illsley, Mr. Eric Wright, Mr. Anthony Reed, Mr. Jamie Cohen, Harry Irranca-Davies, Huw Wright, David Reid, rh John Cooper, Rosie Jackson, Glenda Wright, Mr. Iain Robertson, John Cooper, rh Yvette Jenkins, Mr. Brian Wright, Dr. Tony Rooney, Mr. Terry Crausby, Mr. David Johnson, Ms Diana R. Wyatt, Derek Roy, Mr. Frank Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Tellers for the Ayes: Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr. Kevan Ruane, Chris Lyn Brown and Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jones, Lynne Ruddock, Joan Mrs. Sharon Hodgson Cummings, John Jones, Mr. Martyn Cunningham, Mr. Jim Joyce, Mr. Eric Cunningham, Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald NOES David, Mr. Wayne Keeley, Barbara Alexander, Danny Holmes, Paul Davidson, Mr. Ian Keen, Alan Brake, Tom Howarth, David Davies, Mr. Quentin Kelly, rh Ruth Cable, Dr. Vincent Huhne, Chris Denham, rh Mr. John Kemp, Mr. Fraser Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hunter, Mark Dismore, Mr. Andrew Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Keetch, Mr. Paul Dobbin, Jim Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Corbyn, Jeremy Laws, Mr. David Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Knight, rh Jim Davey, Mr. Edward Leech, Mr. John Doran, Mr. Frank Kumar, Dr. Ashok Dowd, Jim Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Dodds, Mr. Nigel McDonnell, John Drew, Mr. David Lammy, rh Mr. David Featherstone, Lynne Pugh, Dr. John Eagle, Angela Lazarowicz, Mark Foster, Mr. Don Rogerson, Dan Efford, Clive Lepper, David George, Andrew Rowen, Paul Ellman, Mrs. Louise Levitt, Tom Harris, Dr. Evan Russell, Bob 1197 Council Tax 9 JULY 2009 1198

Smith, Sir Robert Willis, Mr. Phil UK Manufacturing Stunell, Andrew Willott, Jenny Swinson, Jo Younger-Ross, Richard Topical debate Thurso, John Tellers for the Noes: Williams, Mark Mr. Alan Reid and 3.30 pm Williams, Stephen Mr. Roger Williams The Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr. Pat McFadden): I beg to move, Question accordingly agreed to. That this House has considered the matter of UK manufacturing. Resolved, The business of making things—manufacturing—matters That the draft Council Tax Limitation (Maximum Amounts) to every Member of this House: it has been a defining (England) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on part of our economy for hundreds of years; it has 10 June, be approved. contributed to our reputation across the world; and it is a significant part of our economic strength. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): Will the Minister give way? Mr. McFadden: Not for the moment, as I am only one sentence into my speech. Since the time of the industrial revolution when we were dubbed “the workshop of the world”, manufacturing has helped the UK to punch above its weight, and one of my principal points today is to counter the impression that we are not still a country that excels at making things; we most certainly are, but where once we led the way as producers of iron, coal and cotton, we are now blazing a trail in new areas such as robotics, software, new technology and advanced manufacturing. Kelvin Hopkins rose— Mr. McFadden: I see that my hon. Friend is still anxious to get to his feet, so I shall give way to him. Kelvin Hopkins: I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way. I want to be as supportive as possible, but I have to quibble with his suggestion that we are still a manufacturing nation. We have a gigantic trade deficit in manufactures, contributing to a very substantial balance of trade deficit which is ongoing, in contrast to Germany, for instance, which has a massive surplus as it has looked after its manufacturing better than us. I hope my right hon. Friend will accept that. Mr. McFadden: I do not accept the assertion that we are not a manufacturing nation. We are the sixth largest manufacturer in the world, and I believe that manufacturing is a critically important part of our economy. I see the pride, passion and commitment of UK manufacturing in my own constituency week in, week out. When the Prime Minister visited Wolverhampton last Friday, my hon. Friends the Members for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris), for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mr. Purchase) and I were able to introduce him to many local manufacturers such as Goodrich in aerospace and Nuclear Engineering Services Ltd in my constituency, where people have built up excellent manufacturing industries employing hundreds of other people and making excellent products. Manufacturing is still a critically important part of our economy, employing 3 million people directly, with more in supplies and associated services, and contributing £150 billion to the UK economy.

Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Minister is talking about the new industries in manufacturing, which is very good, but he seemed to dismiss the older ones. However, there is an opportunity for many such 1199 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1200 industries—shipbuilding and metal beating, for example—in We are fortunate to have world-class companies, such as that their products can be used for the new green Rolls-Royce, based here in the UK. It is a world leader industries, particularly for offshore wind, for instance. in the production of aero engines and provides a prime So will the Minister not dismiss them so lightly? example of the kind of innovative and forward-looking manufacturing that is certainly part of our economic Mr. McFadden: I did not dismiss the old industries; I future. reject that assertion. I believe that traditional manufacturing and the newer industries can combine to contribute to Several hon. Members rose— our manufacturing strengths, so I am certainly not dismissing any manufacturing industries. Mr. McFadden: Many colleagues wish to intervene today. I will try to be generous, but I am keen to make Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): We are now progress. going to have more nuclear power stations, which I greatly welcome. Does the Minister agree, however, that we have waited too long to make that decision, and that Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) a lot of the skills we need to manufacture our own (LD): While praising excellent industries, I hope that nuclear plants—[Interruption.] No, I will accept part of the Minister also recognises just what a world leader the responsibility, but this Government have been in this country is in subsea engineering—that has come on power for a long time—since 1997. Does the Minister the back of the oil and gas industry in the North sea. To agree that if we had been more diligent and made the that end, now that energy is the responsibility of a decision earlier, we would not have to import as much separate Department, does his Department still have an as we will have to simply to be able to construct our new interest in promoting the business side of the oil and gas nuclear build? industry and all the service industries that go with it?

Mr. McFadden: I am prepared to be open-minded Mr. McFadden: My Department works very closely and to accept criticism of Government policy from with the Department of Energy and Climate Change on many quarters, but I will not accept criticism from the these issues, and we will jointly be publishing a low-carbon Conservative party about being late to the game on the manufacturing strategy in the not-too-distant future. new generation of nuclear power stations. The hon. We have worked on that co-operatively. Gentleman’s party has changed its position on that It is important to remember that our manufacturing issue more times than a Highland dancer in the middle base also helps us to attract significant inward investment. of the most active reel. I hope that the Conservatives The UK is the world’s second most popular destination now accept the need to move forward in that regard. for foreign inward investment. Investment projects in I was explaining the importance of manufacturing advanced manufacturing have increased this year by to the UK economy; as I said, it contributes some 18 per cent, so even in the midst of a downturn inward £150 billion to the economy, accounts for half of Britain’s investment in manufacturing is a UK success story, and exports and is responsible for 75 per cent. of our we must not forget it. business research and development. Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): A Mr. Fraser Kemp (Houghton and Washington, East) golden thread running through manufacturing is the (Lab): Does the Minister think that an excellent example importance of investment in capital equipment, and of how traditional industries can modernise for the capital allowances are one of the tax regimes to encourage future can be found in the motor industry and the that. Is my right hon. Friend as astounded as I am that investment in low-carbon cars that has been considered. the policy of those on the Conservative Front Bench, as Nissan, in my constituency, is one organisation that is announced by the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) looking closely at producing the next generation of on 12 May, is to cut capital allowances by £3.7 billion low-carbon cars, and a decision is expected on that a year? shortly. Does he think that that is another way of developing our manufacturing base? May I also quickly Mr. McFadden: That kind of policy is the last thing correct something he said? He said that 3 million people that our manufacturing industries need, particularly in are employed in manufacturing, but I suspect that the the midst of a downturn when we hope that hard-pressed real figure is 200 more than that, because 200 extra staff industries are able to take investment decisions in order have been taken on by Nissan as a result of the success to prepare for the upturn when it comes. The Conservative of this Government’s scrappage scheme. party has come up with a policy that would strike at the heart of those investment decisions, and that is Mr. McFadden: I am happy to be corrected by my the very opposite of the support that manufacturing hon. Friend, who anticipates what I am coming on to industry needs. say about the importance of the low-carbon economy in our manufacturing future. He rightly stresses that, Kelvin Hopkins: I agree entirely with my right hon. and the Government are actively working with Nissan Friend about the importance of manufacturing and and other manufacturers on that agenda. preparing for the upturn when it comes. Will he and the This country has excellence and world leadership in Secretary of State do everything possible to sustain the some manufacturing sectors-for example, aerospace. We General Motors van plant in Luton—the best van plant have the second biggest aerospace industry in the world, in Europe, which produces the best vans in Europe and, with more than 100,000 people directly employed in the I would argue, has the best work force in Europe? It is manufacture of aircraft systems, engines and equipment. vital for our future. 1201 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1202

Mr. McFadden: The importance that we attach to those investments off, giving them the confidence to that plant was evidenced recently by the visit of my make the investment that our manufacturing industry right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. We are doing needs. everything we can to ensure that General Motors continue We must do more to prepare for the upturn, and that with its manufacturing base here. is why we have brought together the former Department We have manufacturing excellence in this country. I for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform and have mentioned one or two sectors, and there are others, the Department for Innovation, University and Skills in such as plastic electronics and bluetooth technology—things the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. that we use every day that are made here in the UK and That will help to prepare the country for the economic are an important part of our manufacturing future. Of upturn and ensure that we put the support in place course, we must also acknowledge that, amid those where it will have most value. We will certainly not strengths and our strong position overall, manufacturing stand by and watch the recession take its course, as we has had a tough time during the recession. Some companies were advised to a few months ago by the Opposition. have gone, including some well known names, and We believe that we have an active part to play and that people have lost their jobs. We understand the pain that that philosophy of industrial activism that was once the that causes for individual families and communities. We vogue on the Opposition Benches, before being abandoned, are determined to ensure that those affected get a is still important. second chance to retrain and reskill, and to start again. That stands in stark contrast to what happened in Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): Is not our previous recessions, when people in manufacturing sectors record in direct contrast to that of the Opposition, who and others lost their jobs and were left with little more actively closed coal mines, actively closed shipyards and than a giro cheque to keep body and soul together. They actively destroyed the steel industry in this country? certainly did not get the active help that they needed to have a second chance. Mr. McFadden: My hon. Friend makes a good point. We cannot insulate the country from closures—I do not Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): We still have pretend that we can—but we do what we can to avoid the ongoing debate about whether wage compensation them and to give help where they take place. is a realistic approach. It was depressing to hear that even the Proact proposal in Wales has yet to take off. In other parts of Europe, many of our competitor companies Mr. Ian Cawsey (Brigg and Goole) (Lab): Although I have employees on short-time working paid for by the welcome the measures that the Government have put in state to keep them in employment. Are the Government place to keep the manufacturing sector together, it is still actively considering that as a way to keep our also important that we retain certain core manufacturing people in employment? industries, such as the steel industry in north Lincolnshire and my constituency. A fortnight ago, Corus said that 500 jobs were to go there and this morning it announced Mr. McFadden: Let us consider the European that another 366 will go. Active intervention—the report comparisons. We are not alone in our manufacturing from the Federation of Small Businesses and the TUC industries being affected by the recession. There has talks about wage subsidy, which was mentioned by my been a decline in trade in goods across the world. In the hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew)—is year to April, manufacturing output declined in this needed to keep such businesses at the capacity that they country by 13 per cent. In the US, the figure was are at now so that when the upturn comes we still have 14.6 per cent., in France it was almost 20 per cent., in steel in Britain. Germany it was 24 per cent. and in Japan it was more than 30 per cent. The effect has been felt around the world, and it has often been greater in other countries Mr. McFadden: I have been in active contact with than here in the UK. Corus in recent weeks. My sympathies go out to my hon. Friend’s constituents who are affected by job losses, No Government can say that they can stop an economic and those of other hon. Members. Corus has told me recession having an impact, but we will do everything that the critical issue it faces is demand for the product we can to ensure that the recession is as short and as that it makes. Half that product goes into construction, shallow as possible. I shall tell the House about some of so the best thing that we can do is to try to ensure that the measures that we are taking to support manufacturing there is demand for the product that is made. We have through the recession. brought forward spending for social housing, for additional During the past year, the Manufacturing Advisory investment in schools and hospitals and for initiatives Service, which does an excellent job, has helped nearly such as the car scrappage scheme so that there is demand 8,000 manufacturing companies to improve their efficiency for the steel that is made. In the long term, that will be and effectiveness, improving gross value added by some more effective in supporting the steel industry than any £120 million and, in many cases, helping to generate short-term wage scheme. I must stress that. new sales. The vehicle scrappage scheme, which my hon. Let me talk about our industrial policy, as published Friend the Member for Houghton and Washington, in “New Industry, New Jobs”, and some of the support East (Mr. Kemp) mentioned, has had a serious impact, and initiatives available from the Government. We have with 94,000 orders for new vehicles. set aside £750 million for a strategic investment fund. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, About a third of that will go to low-carbon initiatives, South-West mentioned, we also have a £50,000 investment because we understand that how we build and heat our allowance, meaning that the 95 per cent. of businesses homes, produce our energy and transport ourselves will that invest less than that sum a year are able to write all change profoundly in the years to come. 1203 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1204

As a Government, we take the view that we want contribute to the debate. I am therefore reducing the British industry to be in the best possible place to take time limit on Back-Bench contributions to six minutes. advantage of those opportunities. That is why we are I call Mr. John Penrose. working with colleagues from the Department of Energy and Climate Change on a low-carbon industrial strategy to ensure that as we come out of the downturn we back 3.51 pm the best of British industry in initiatives such as wind and wave power and low-carbon vehicles, as well as John Penrose (Weston-super-Mare) (Con): Thank you, others, and that we take advantage of the opportunities Madam Deputy Speaker, and I shall try to keep my represented by the low-carbon economy. As the G8 comments as brief as possible to allow plenty of time meets and discusses these things, it is of course a for other colleagues to make a contribution. challenge to respond to climate change, but it is also an I shall start on a momentary happy note by saying industrial opportunity. This Government are determined that the Opposition have one fundamental point of to ensure that British industry has the help and support agreement with the Minister. We agree that manufacturing it needs to take advantage of that. is clearly vital for this country’s long-term economic future. It has been for many years, and must be in Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): The Minister is talking future, a core part of this country’s economy and about industrial activism and support as regards climate employment. My party would like to see it grow and change. That is all to be welcomed, of course, but how prosper at a far higher rate than it has in the past. much of that £750 million has seen the light of day? The Minister was right to point out that manufacturing How much has been spent or invested so far, when it still accounts for 13 per cent. of our GDP—a substantially was announced months ago? smaller proportion than it used to be, but still very material. He was also right to point out that we are Mr. McFadden: It was announced in the Budget and sixth in the world rankings on manufacturing. There plans will be brought forward over the coming months. are plenty of industries in which we can be proud of our The hon. Gentleman is critical of spending; I point out standing: he mentioned aerospace, and I completely to him that his party is determined to cut spending by agree with him. an extra £5 billion this year. I see not what hope that would give to manufacturing industry, which needs I am afraid, however, that the situation is not quite as support to invest in some of the opportunities that I rosy as the Minister tried to paint it. The sad fact is that have mentioned. I could say the same about training. for many decades the experience here has been of long-term We believe it is important that our workers have the decline in manufacturing, relative to other countries. skills to take part in modern manufacturing, which is That has been going on under Governments of all why we will put £1 billion into Train to Gain next year. stripes, not just this one, for many decades. That is money that the hon. Gentleman’s party, as recently as Monday, pledged in this House to abolish. Kelvin Hopkins: Does the hon. Gentleman accept The Opposition have pledged to cut spending on training, that one factor that has had a crucial effect on our and they are committed to cutting support for spending manufacturing sector for a long time has been the overall. That is not what our manufacturing industries overvaluation of sterling, relative to the currencies of need. other significant developed nations? The countries that have attended to their exchange rate and made sure that What those industries need is co-ordinated support it is kept in line—such as Germany, for example—have and help from the Government, directly where it makes prospered rather better than we have. a difference. They also need the Government to be a smart customer, because we are a major purchaser of many goods and services right across the economy. In John Penrose: I should love to agree, but I am afraid the past, Governments may not have looked so actively that I cannot. I am a free marketeer, and so believe that at their role as a customer, but we are determined to do the market is rather better at choosing appropriate that in the future. exchange rates for most countries than politicians are— certainly, it is better than politicians in this place. In A critical part of our manufacturing strategy is that addition, Germany’s experience with the level of the we take advantage of the opportunities presented by the Deutschmark and now the euro has not been altogether change to a low-carbon economy, whether that involves happy in many periods of its history. I am not sure that new nuclear capacity, low-carbon vehicles, or wind and it is a good example, although I accept the underlying wave power. That is what we intend to do, through the point that I think the hon. Gentleman is making, which strategic investment fund and other initiatives. is that many countries’ currencies have been overvalued This debate is critically important to our economy. or undervalued for periods. That clearly creates stresses Manufacturing is a hugely important sector, and we are and strains in the world economy. a country that makes things. We are the sixth biggest To illustrate how long our relative decline has been manufacturing economy in the world, and we will continue going on, it is instructive to look at the rate of job losses to be a major manufacturing economy in the future. in our manufacturing sector. Because of various comments from the other side of the House, I shall make one Several hon. Members rose— comparison—and I shall limit myself to this—between the Labour and Conservative records. Under the previous Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. I inform Conservative Administration, 137,000 manufacturing the House that Mr. Speaker had imposed a time limit of jobs were lost each year. However, I am afraid that eight minutes on Back-Bench contributions, but that the rate has accelerated under the current Labour additional Members have since expressed a desire to Government, and that the number of manufacturing 1205 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1206

[John Penrose] John Penrose: I am delighted to have been able to give the Minister the opportunity to make that explanation. jobs lost each year is now 152,000. Clearly, we are still I am sure we all wish the initiative well, although we making mistakes and we still face a fundamental underlying obviously need to make sure that it delivers what it problem. promises. I am sure that all hon. Members would agree about the principle that it is trying to achieve. Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Can the hon. Gentleman We must deal with some other external problems, one tell us how many manufacturing jobs have been created of which, particularly at a time of recession, is the under the Government? threat of a resurgent force of protectionism. As the Minister rightly said, we are facing one of the worst John Penrose: I do not have a clue, but I am sure that recessions in living memory, and it has hit manufacturing either the hon. Lady or somebody with the appropriate and construction particularly badly. There is danger at note from the Labour Whips is itching to tell us and will this point in the economic cycle, because there are doubtless leap to their feet at some point during the always temptations for the voices of protectionism in debate. countries all round the world to try to re-raise barriers, either tariff or non-tariff. Clearly, that would affect the It is instructive to consider why there has been a UK’s ability to export. These days, manufacturing is long-term decline. Some factors are the fault of overwhelmingly a global industry and a global business Governments and politicians, but others are part of the in many sectors. Protectionism is an arrow aimed at the global economy. It is instructive to realise that, because heart of our manufacturing sector if we cannot fend off in the face of the economic winds of change other those siren voices and ensure that the forces of protectionism countries may have dealt with the pressures better than are held at bay. us. We have already heard about Germany, although I Given that scenario, why are other countries doing did not agree with the precise example. better than us in maintaining their manufacturing sectors The most important factor is globalisation. Many and making them prosperous? What should we be doing? countries have become part of the global economy and, My party has come up with a series of ideas, and I because they have a particular advantage in low wage propose to summarise them, but I shall not go on for rates, have made huge strides in trading their way upwards too long because I am conscious that other Members and out of poverty. I am sure everybody in the Chamber want to contribute. agrees with that and welcomes it, but the unfortunate First and most importantly, we need a simpler tax and painful downside for the UK has been long-term regime, and lower taxes wherever possible. Half of one pressure on internationally traded goods, particularly of our tax ideas was mentioned by the hon. Member for those that are manufactured in this country. That has Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris), who spoke been a major factor in the erosion of Britain’s relative about our plans for capital allowances. He neglected to competitive position in manufacturing. mention what we would do with the money; I am sure That has not been happening only over the past that that was merely an unintentional oversight, and I 10 years, although there has been a strong impact on am happy to help him out. The aim, of course, is to the Government’s performance. In the 1980s and ’90s, reduce corporation tax and the cost of employing staff, before the so-called BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, particularly for smaller companies. Our ideas on that, India and China—emerged and became part of the which are already a matter of public record, are to cut world economy, we were all talking about the Asian corporation tax and payroll taxes for small firms, to tigers, who were doing exactly the same thing. It has defer small firms’ VAT bills, to introduce measures such been going on for many years, and it is up to us to as small business rate relief, and to make the latter address the issue rather more effectively than we have mandatory. been. Those ideas are all simple and straightforward, and Some of the problems are self-inflicted, however. In will help small firms in many sectors, particularly the old days, there was appalling labour market rigidity manufacturing, to prosper. They make life simpler, and and industrial strife. Thankfully, that problem has been they mean that firms do not have to check with their substantially reduced; it has not gone completely, but it accountants before making an investment decision. The is more a problem of history than of today. The UK has measures allow firms to focus on customers, rather than a good record in research-led innovation—scientific on tax implications, and firms will therefore be much innovation from our universities—but unfortunately we more likely to remain competitive. are not as good as many other countries, particularly America, in converting theoretical science into practical Rob Marris rose— manufactured products that can be sold abroad. In many cases, other countries are better at taking on such John Penrose: I give way, but with trepidation. ideas and investing in them. I do not say that we are awful at it, but we could do better. Rob Marris: I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman: we cannot compete with India and China. We need Mr. McFadden: I agree that there has traditionally capital investment. He is right that Conservative party been difficulty in bringing great ideas from the laboratory policy is to cut corporation tax from 28 per cent. to to the market. That is why, as part of “Building Britain’s 25 per cent. for larger companies; that is where the Future” we have announced an innovation fund, to be £3.7 billion comes from. The countervailing measure to shared between Government and levered-in private sector make the policy cost-neutral is to take £3.7 billion away funding, to do precisely what the hon. Gentleman is from capital allowances. I just put it to him that talking about. I hope he welcomes that initiative. manufacturing industry disproportionately relies on capital 1207 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1208 allowances. We want capital investment, and we have to contracts that might allow a firm to hedge its exposure. have it, because we cannot compete on wages with India There are a number of things that can be done, but the and China. problem with them is that none works as well as in other countries. John Penrose: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but Finally—here we are in agreement with the Minister— it is also true to say that in the past 10 years, this there are great opportunities for this country in green country’s tax code has become incredibly baroque, long manufacturing and creating a low-carbon economy. and involved. I think that it is one of the longest in the There is a degree of overlap between the two parties, developed world. It is now incredibly difficult to enact largely because we would argue that our party introduced any measures, other than simplification measures, that a series of ideas, which the Government swiped and are will have a practical effect on investment decisions, claiming as their own. Whatever the provenance of the because people cannot understand the tax code, which ideas, measures such as smart meters, feed-in tariffs, is supposed to encourage them to do one thing or the encouraging renewable energy sources such as biogas other. Simplicity is far more important, as a way of and marine energy and, as the Minister mentioned, getting people to focus on customers. encouraging low-carbon buildings, transport and commerce I am conscious of the time, so I shall move on and by retrofitting energy efficiency measures to existing talk about skills improvements. I think that there is a stock, and in our case proposing a high-speed rail route degree of agreement across the parties on the aim and throughout the country, will stimulate locally produced importance of improving skills throughout the economy, and locally manufactured products that stand a chance although I suspect that we would disagree on how the of putting Britain in the forefront of some of the most Government are going about that. I should like to important and exciting new industry areas in future. correct one point made, doubtless unintentionally, about There is much that can be done. Other countries are the Conservative party’s policies on Train to Gain. The doing these things better than we are. I have set out the Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills said that Conservative party’s recipe for coming back up the we plan to reform Train to Gain, but he did not say how order of merit internationally, and I commend it to we planned to spend the money thus freed up. Just to the House. make sure that he understands, I point out that our policy is not a cut, but a redistribution of the money so that it is used in a way that we hope is rather more 4.6 pm productive. Some £775 million will go to reform Train Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I to Gain. That will create 100,000 extra apprenticeship welcome a great deal of what my right hon. Friend the places, fully fund 77,000 existing places that are currently Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills said in only partly funded, create a £2,000-per-job bonus for introducing the debate. If the hon. Member for Weston- new apprentices in small and medium-sized enterprises super-Mare (John Penrose) will forgive me, I do not and boost group training associations. That is not a cut; think I will be using his recipes in relation to manufacturing. it is, we believe, a better way of spending the existing Those of us who come from the west midlands know money. how badly the manufacturing sector is being hit by Other factors that are vital for manufacturing are the current economic downturn. The West Midlands simplifying and speeding up the planning process. It is Committee is conducting an inquiry and will report in extremely difficult for anybody who wants to build a the near future, so I shall not prefigure that. In the short new factory in this country to find a site and battle their time available, I shall make a few comments about the way through the thickets of our planning law, and in automotive sector, both because my constituency includes that regard it is difficult for us to compete with many Longbridge and as Chair of the all-party motor group. other countries. That puts off many potential investors. I shall not go over the issues about MG Rover that The system needs to be simplified and made quicker. were discussed this week and will be spoken about again Equally, we have a problem in our energy sector. in great detail, save to say that, with all the accusations Many manufacturers—particularly those at the heavier and counter-accusations that have been flying around end of manufacturing, who inevitably use a great deal over the past few days, I hope nobody loses sight of of energy—have come to me and, I am sure, many other the fact that the important people in the debate are the Members present in the Chamber, and said, “Look, the 6,000 workers who lost their jobs, and their families, the problem with Britain’s energy prices is not only that communities that rely on them, and the suppliers to that they can be high, but that they are particularly volatile.” plant. I hope that when he winds up the debate, my Volatility makes planning extremely difficult, and is right hon. Friend will confirm that it is the Government’s particularly difficult to cope with for those in heavy intention to publish the inquiry report into MG Rover industries; it therefore needs to be dealt with. as soon as possible, and that after four years of waiting those employees will be able to get the money that is Mr. Weir: I agree with the hon. Gentleman about their due from the trust fund that has been set up. energy prices. Is there not also a problem with the type On broader automotive issues, I welcome the fact of contracts that some energy companies impose on that the signs coming out of the introduction of the high-end users? They demand large sums up front because scrappage scheme are positive. Perhaps there are lessons of the effects of the recession, in which so many companies that we can learn from that for the future. Will my right have gone to the wall. hon. Friend bear in mind what my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) said about short-time John Penrose: The effects are many.The hon. Gentleman working subsidies, which still have a role to play? We has picked up one, and it is a major factor. It is need to look at those more seriously. I welcome the extremely difficult in some cases to take out forward automotive assistance programme that was published 1209 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1210

[Richard Burden] 4.12 pm John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) in February, but like others I want to underline the fact (LD): May I begin by reiterating the written apology that that programme is not yet working quickly enough. that I have made to you, Mr. Speaker, and through you, That must be addressed. to the House? I may have to leave a few minutes before For companies of strategic significance in the west the end of the debate, although our timing is such that I midlands economy, it is particularly important that hope to be able to stay for the full debate. things move more speedily in order to attract the necessary There is no doubt that UK manufacturing has been investment. One example is Jaguar Land Rover, where going through a particularly difficult time and has been the issue is loan guarantees on commercial rates. That deeply affected by the current crisis. We should not must be brought to a conclusion as soon as possible so underestimate that. Indeed, we have heard about examples that that company can realise its undoubted potential. of those difficulties from the hon. Member for Birmingham, That brings me to the main issue that I want to cover Northfield (Richard Burden) and the hon. Member for today—risk. Assessing, managing and taking risk is at Brigg and Goole (Mr. Cawsey), who mentioned Corus. the heart of any business. Businesses cannot operate Office for National Statistics figures show that the drop without risk. That is clear from the example of the in output has been worse than anticipated. Many companies automotive industry, where there is a risk every time are struggling, and that struggle flows through to lay-offs millions of pounds are invested in developing a new and redundancies. I do not for one moment underestimate product, research and development and so on. It was those difficulties, but in the short time available to me I even clearer this week when motor sport industry should like to turn to the future and to the opportunities representatives came to Parliament to talk about its that it presents. potential—some hon. Members might have seen the It would be wrong to fall into the trap that many industry’s exhibitions. It is involved in a range of areas— people fall into of regarding British manufacturing as from green technologies to defence equipment—that go somehow old-fashioned, outdated, ineffective, rooted in well beyond motorsport, and at the root of that involvement the past and of no consequence to the future. Far from is the industry’s ability and willingness to take risk. it; in manufacturing, the high-tech and advanced At a time of economic downturn, there is a greater engineering sectors, in particular, and many others are consensus about the need for the Government to intervene world-leading and world-beating. We should not only to nurture manufacturing. That is what the automotive support them now, but nurture them into the future. As assistance programme is all about, but, if we are to do the Minister said when he gave his figures, we still have so when bank credit is difficult to obtain, we must start the sixth-largest manufacturing industry in the world, taking responsible risks. The problem is that the machinery comprising 12.6 per cent. of the economy, by the gross of government—for all the right reasons of looking value added—GVA—measure, and 3 million employees. after taxpayers’ money and so on—can end up being That is important by anybody’s reckoning. too risk-averse, and the resultant delays can get in the Certain sectors, including the steel and automotive way of what we want to do. industries, have suffered grievously, but the quality and When bank credit dries up, the Government rightly strength of many others, such as the high-tech and say, “We need to ensure that the European Investment advanced engineering sectors, remain a success story Bank can put money in,” but the European Investment that we must support. I should like to touch on two Bank then looks for guarantees. It looks to the Government examples of such opportunities. First, the Pentland to back up those guarantees with their own loan guarantees, firth, which is close to my home in the north, has a tidal so the Government go back to the company to try to resource that it is estimated could deliver up to 31 GW secure the guarantees that the firm could not provide in of energy. Given current technology, that is probably a the first place. The danger is that we get into that big tad optimistic, but a yield of 10 to 15 GW is highly circle and we do not get very far. realistic. We, as politicians, must learn some lessons from that, The technology is developing rapidly. Three years because we often create that state of mind. When someone ago, I was told that in aviation terms it was at the takes a risk, sometimes things will be successful and Wright brothers stage, and a couple of weeks ago I was sometimes things will be unsuccessful, but when something told that it had advanced to the Spitfire stage; in a few is unsuccessful we politicians have a habit of immediately years’ time, we hope to be in the jet age. The Crown looking for heads to roll and for somebody to blame Estate has a licensing process and British-designed, and of saying, “Youshould never have taken that risk in British-made turbines, leading the world, will be the the first place.” We had an example of that earlier this first in productive service. Companies such as Rolls week, when the right hon. and learned Member for Royce, Atlantis and International Power are all involved. Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) went back to the MG Rover We have the opportunity to be the first in the world and story and said that, in 2005, at that crucial time, it was to centre the industry in this country, with jobs in the absolutely wrong for the Government to invest—to UK—including a few, I hope, in Caithness. risk—£6 million to try to save 6,000 jobs. Interestingly, the Tories supported the measure at the time, but they Mr. Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): My hon. attack it now. Political amnesia is an interesting thing. Friend is right that the renewable energy industry gives The point is that it was justifiable to risk that money to a great opportunity for British manufacturing, particularly save those jobs. It was the right thing to do, but it did in remote locations. Will he join me in welcoming the not achieve the right result. We need to learn some investment made in Campbeltown by Welcon? It has lessons from that, but I certainly hope that they do not the potential to create a few hundred jobs in the manufacture lead us to say, “Never take the risk”, or to just play the of wind turbine towers for the offshore wind generation blame game. industry. 1211 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1212

John Thurso: I am happy to welcome that development therefore crucial in terms of the thrust of the policies in Campbeltown. that are necessary to sustain manufacturing and make The danger is that other countries will see what we for a recovery.These people are not instinctively supportive are doing and latch on to the technology. How often in of Government intervention and Government spending, the past has British innovation become somebody else’s but they argue, time and again, that if we do not have production? We must not lose the opportunity; the the general policies in place to sustain our manufacturing threat is that things will go elsewhere. I make a plea to base, when the tide turns and the economy grows we the Government, and I am meeting Ministers at the will not have the industrial capacity to secure the jobs Department of Energy and Climate Change to put this and the profits to pay into taxes to pay off the public point: the Government should play the co-ordinating spending that we are incurring now. role that will make sure that at this early stage the bits The overarching policy is right, but some pillars are are joined up so that the opportunity is realised. working well and others are not. First on the balance The second opportunity on which I want to touch sheet, I will mention those that are working well. After has already been mentioned by the hon. Member for a slow start, the enterprise finance guarantee scheme is Birmingham, Northfield; it relates to the motor sport undoubtedly playing an important part in the survival industry. I had a fascinating meeting with the industry’s of manufacturing SMEs. The flexibility on tax offered representatives and I love what it is doing. There is such by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is an enormous quality and breadth in its engineering. Everybody thinks help to a large number of small companies. The scrappage that it is just to do with Formula 1, but it is not—it is scheme, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the about advanced gearboxes for articulated lorries which Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden), will reduce the amount of fuel used, about electric appears to be playing its part in sustaining demand in transmission, about the aerospace and defence industries the motor industry and, in turn, the steel industry. The and about £6 billion of exports. The motor sport industry, prompt payment initiative is also very welcome. too, needs to be supported. However, other pillars are not working so well. I want If there is to be support, we need three things. First, to concentrate particularly on credit insurance. My we need a clear strategy. That is not about picking hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield winners and losers but about identifying strengths and went on at some length about risk. That is nowhere opportunities and making sure that they are supported. better reflected than in the support that the credit The Government have made a good start and I hope to insurance industry gives to the construction and automotive see more of the same. The second point is about supply chain, which in general does not get much support. skills. In the next three years, we will be approximately Rachel Eades, a representative of Accelerate, the motor 5,000 jobs short in advanced areas such as nuclear industry supply body, says: technology, the advanced automotive industry and many “The majority of our clients have all been hit with either or other activities. We need to find a way of getting the both a reduction in cover and in many cases—and it seems to be skilled engineers that we need. growing—the complete withdrawal of insurance cover for vehicle manufacturers and tier one suppliers.” The third issue is finance. The current crisis in the City should be regarded as an opportunity. This is a That is hitting companies in my constituency, and in the time when we can redirect our finance, which can stop rest of the black country, particularly hard. They know being the purview of the masters of speculation, and that there are opportunities to promote and sustain when the City can once again become the servant of their sales but cannot get the credit insurance necessary commerce and industry. That means less debt and more to do so. It does not help that even when they can get it, equity. We need to find ways in which we can get more the premiums have gone up and their overheads are that equity to absorb more risk into British manufacturing much greater. In many areas of the motor supply industry, industry. credit insurance has been withdrawn altogether. The Government initiative announced in April to top it up is There is no doubt that British manufacturing is suffering therefore irrelevant, because one cannot top up something today, but it is a success story to be nurtured and taken that does not exist. This is a big issue that is hampering forward. As I said, it will offer a real prospect for the ability of small companies in the black country to sustainable growth once the recession is over. We should sustain their viability. I hope that the Government will not lose sight of that opportunity. look at it again. The other big handicap in the Government proposals 4.19 pm is that they relate only to domestic companies. Our Mr. Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich, West) (Lab/Co-op): Government representatives are internationally promoting I represent a traditional manufacturing constituency; a global fiscal stimulus, with construction in European even today, well over 20 per cent. of the work force are countries designed to stimulate the European and wider employed in manufacturing and construction—the two world economy, but companies in my constituency that sectors that have been hit hardest by the recession. would be capable of using the competitive pound to sell In my regular conversations with the managers of and to enhance their profitability and potential work small and medium-sized companies in my constituency, force in those markets cannot do so because no export the Government’s general approach is recognised as credit guarantee insurance is available. being appropriate. When I speak to those people, the I know that the Government are consulting on that, first thing they tell me is that the important thing is to and I hope that the Minister will ensure that that sustain demand. Without that demand for the good and consultation reaches a speedy and productive conclusion. products that they produce, all the schemes are not Otherwise, there will be companies in the black country worth much. The Government’s commitment to bringing that are unable to support the Government’s overall forward public spending and to sustaining demand is initiatives to promote world growth, and particularly 1213 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1214 the element of that growth that will help much-needed production as well. We have to build on the fact that we small and medium-sized enterprises in areas such as the are good at innovation and research and development. black country. Some of us managed to see the Lightning, the electric sports car that will hopefully be built in the midlands, in 4.25 pm the House a few weeks ago. It has had a lot of research and development here, and it will be manufactured here Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): It is apposite as well. It will do 198 miles before it needs to be that we have the opportunity to debate UK manufacturing recharged. That is the future, but we must not turn our industries at this moment, during a deep recession. back on the car industry of the past in the midlands and Somebody spoke earlier about political amnesia, but other parts of the country, which is suffering greatly. one thing is for certain: people are not going to forgot the hurt that has been felt during this recession. We support the car scrappage scheme, which works in France and Germany. I think that the Government My hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare made the right decision—we will have to monitor the (John Penrose), the shadow Minister, spoke about the scheme to ascertain whether it needs to be extended need to make absolutely certain that we do not resort to when the time comes, rather than turning our back protectionism—a view with which I agree heartily. The on it. last thing we want is a wall built around the European Union as some sort of protectionist device. Even if we BAE Systems operates in my constituency, where we were to build a wall around it, I suspect that we would have a superb plant. As I am sure the Minister knows, it put the contract out to tender and the Chinese would employs 4,500 in the Samlesbury plant in my constituency, win it. We know that they are pretty good at building and 7,000 in the Warton plant, which is not far away. great walls, but it would be of no benefit whatever to us. Thanks to the company’s putting so much investment We really do believe in free trade. into the two plants in the north-west, many other jobs Before I move on to the impact of manufacturing and have been created in small enterprises. Frankly, many its importance to us, I wish to make a brief point about people could not name those small companies, some of trade missions and exhibitions, which I feel are vital. I them based in lock-ups, and would not even know what am a co-chairman of the all-party export group, and I they were doing, but the existence of BAE means their believe that the attempt to save a bit of money by existence. It would therefore be short-termist of any cutting back on trade missions and exhibitions throughout political party that takes over in 2010 or earlier and is the world has been rather foolish in the long term. trying to save public funds to cut defence expenditure and procurement. We need to ensure that our troops Frankly, I thought that we made a grave mistake have the equipment that they need to protect the country when got rid of the royal yacht and did not replace it and that there is sufficient investment in future in projects with anything. We could have had a new yacht, such as the Lightning, and in the joint strike fighter and manufactured in Britain, as a showpiece throughout the other aircraft. world on which to exhibit goods made in the UK, supported by our trade ambassador, Prince Andrew. 4.31 pm We did not, and at the same time we cut the number of missions and exhibitions we support throughout the Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I am glad that we have world. Other countries are not doing likewise. Our the opportunity to discuss such an important subject. I so-called European friends are also our competitors, welcome, as well as the Minister, his new colleague from and they are getting out there in the world and promoting Wales, the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation the goods that they manufacture. I do not blame them and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham for that; I blame us for not matching them. (Ian Lucas). I know that he will be very helpful in We have taken the same attitude towards our embassies, providing additional assistance to manufacturing. high commissions and consulates throughout the world. It is easy, when faced with the press, to focus only the We are cutting back and closing missions right, left and negative. I should like briefly to make a couple of centre and bringing the flag down. We might think that positive points about my constituency. We are pleased that is associated with our colonial past, but it has to welcome the company Thales, which will provide nothing to do with that and everything to do with our approximately 80 jobs by the autumn in manufacturing trading future. The Chinese are also our competitors in an impressive vehicle, for which is there is much demand manufacturing, and they are doubling or trebling missions. nationally. That is a great story. We also have the Proact I hope that the Minister will look again at our attitude scheme, which is working well with our local college, to trade missions and exhibitions throughout the world. Coleg Sir Gâr, and helping 12 local companies to use It was asked earlier how many manufacturing jobs time productively. If those companies cannot sell as have been created recently. The only figure that I have many products, and therefore cannot do as much compares the number of people employed in manufacturing manufacturing, they can at least upskill the workers. in 1997, when we left office, with today. In 1997 it was We should not only improve workers’ skills for an 4.53 million, and today it is 2.7 million. There has been upturn in the economy, but invest in infrastructure. As a huge reduction. Manufacturing is still important to the Minister explained, and as my hon. Friend the the UK, and it is not simply at the hands of this Member for West Bromwich, West (Mr. Bailey) said, Government that it has reduced. It has happened over programmes for schools and hospitals help steel and successive generations. However, we have to realise that other manufacturing industries, which are supplying all there is a problem and that we cannot base the future of the good construction work, but we must also examine this country simply on the service sector. the infrastructure that we need for our industry. We are It is absolutely right that we have to invest in research lucky in my constituency to have rail and the M4, which and development. We talk about innovation, which we means that we have excellent manufacturing sites within are pretty good at, but we have to be pretty good at a few minutes of road and rail. 1215 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1216

We should look at manufacturing throughout the make for depressing reading. The disappointing news is UK, especially in areas such as south-west Wales where that the United Kingdom economy did not exit recession every job is valued. We should not simply focus on one in the second quarter as had previously been predicted; or two areas, where perhaps there is a greater concentration. instead, it is now stagnating, according to the gross We need the investment as much as anywhere else. domestic product estimates produced by the National I want to consider the more complex issue of investment Institute of Economic and Social Research. That is the in our sewerage infrastructure. It is easy to understand reality. Last month, the institute estimated flat output how money for schools and hospitals is channelled—it growth in the second quarter and downward revisions goes via the Welsh Assembly and county councils; we to industrial production have stunted GDP forecasts. know what we are doing. However, we have recently had I agree with the Minister, however, that we are one of a consultation about water pricing, which arose because the great world leaders in advanced manufacturing. We of the need for water companies throughout the UK to have some of the greatest companies in the world. They examine investment in the infrastructure. That has affected operate from the United Kingdom but they are global manufacturing industry in my area because the lack of players with huge strengths in new technology and in investment in sewerage means that we have a planning innovation. restriction on expanding our factories. The water companies have to raise the money from individual domestic users Mr. Evans: My hon. Friend has listed some of the and there is great variation throughout the country. For problems; does he agree with me that if Sir Alan Sugar example, in south-west England, a huge effort is made is the answer, we had better look again at the question? to keep the beaches clean and that has a knock-on effect Sir Nicholas Winterton: Inevitably, I share my hon. on the domestic price. We need to consider how we right Friend’s view on Mr. Alan Sugar—or should I now call that infrastructure to ensure that no area is disadvantaged him Lord Sugar? Perhaps not yet. and in a position whereby it cannot build factories because the necessary investment has not been made in Will the Minister ensure that the Government do not bringing sewerage up to the required standard. That place additional burdens—such as an increase in national burden should not fall only on the domestic consumer. insurance, Government-generated energy price rises, fuel tax and regulation—on manufacturing industry? These I should also like to bring to the Minister’s attention are all important factors. When will he reverse the the matter of energy prices. We know that worldwide oil crippling £16 billion cost—that is an official estimate—of prices have been on the G8 agenda. The high-energy constantly changing regulations, and the £7 billion of industries are represented in my area by Corus, and I new taxes introduced a year by his Government? When should like to remind the Minister that the town of will he recognise that manufacturing industry is one of Llanelli is nicknamed “Tinopolis”, because Corus produces the only sources of sustainable, non-inflationary economic tinplate there. That product is very much in demand at growth—a phrase that I have used over many years—and the moment, and we are “lucky” that there is still a the key to getting out of this damaging recession? I put strong market for tins and cans for food and drink. this to the Minister as a challenge: if the future of this However, we feel that we are perched perilously on a country is to be built on modern manufacturing strength, knife-edge, and that every cost increase makes an enormous when will the present Government start to encourage, difference to our ability to compete across the world. and not de-incentivise, our industry and manufacturing? We need to provide companies with certainty and stability and to help them to plan for their energy costs. That is Despite receiving unprecedented valuable bail-outs undoubtedly a great worry for them when they are from the taxpayer—from the HM Treasury—the banks trying to do their long-term planning. I stress to the et. al. are all providing little or no meaningful assistance Minister the absolute urgency involved in getting that to hard-pressed manufacturing via the necessary increase right, and in getting guarantees not only on immediate in lending. I am sure that the Minister will agree. The pricing but in relation to our investment in providing plight of small to medium-sized businesses is very serious, for future energy supplies so that we can become less since the commercial banks still refuse to lend to struggling reliant on imports. businesses, which are, after all, the powerhouse of a modern economy. In that context, I reiterate that we cannot discount the importance of coal. Much as we might like to reach I know that individual businesses in my Macclesfield a point at which we did not have to use a single carbon constituency are finding it extremely difficult to secure product, that is not the reality, given that about 70 per the affordable credit that is so vital for their present cent. of our electricity currently comes from carbon survival. Sadly, I have to report to the Minister that products. We need to think carefully about whether we the situation in the constituency, as witnessed by the would not be better off making a considerable investment Macclesfield chamber of commerce, continues to in coal rather than importing oil. Clean coal technology deteriorate. That situation, as my hon. Friend the Member is a key part of that question. If we could get ahead in for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) would confirm, is repeated that game and produce the necessary materials and throughout the north-west. technology, we could sell them to the world rather than Autac, a company in my constituency that manufactures allowing others to overtake us. We have an ideal opportunity cables and connectors for heavy-goods vehicles and to lead the world in that area. fork-lift trucks, is just about coping with the downturn, but is having to produce very small orders at short notice in order to survive. The management believe 4.37 pm there has been major de-stocking and that customers Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): are now keeping minimum stocks. The company has Manufacturing industry has always been my prime been particularly hit by the drop in demand for commercial priority. Press articles this week entitled “Economy vehicle parts and commercial vehicles, while vehicles as stuck in stagnation” and “Manufacturing output slump” a whole have featured strongly in this debate. 1217 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1218

[Sir Nicholas Winterton] Following an initial meeting with Business Link’s south-west skills service, we were able to fasten a partnership The Macclesfield chamber of commerce is seeing the together, and I am extremely proud of the way in which usual reduction in spend by businesses on training and we have worked. marketing—very dangerous for the future—with several manufacturers also having had to reduce R and D At that stage, the skills service was considering whether spend, which is also critical for the future. Several are Train to Gain could be used to deliver business improvement concerned about the change in rules on tax relief, for techniques, in accordance with national vocational example, and are waiting while HMRC investigates qualifications level 2, to those who would be on short-time claimed costs. working. The aim was to ensure that we used rather than wasted the time that those good people sadly had Locally, as in many parts of the world, there is on their hands, and that if and when the recession concern over PAYE, business rates and employment ended they would be ready to go out and compete with legislation; and the pension protection levy is also an their European and other rivals. issue. The printing industry in my constituency has been particularly hard hit—initially by competition from We had a number of meetings with a huge number of China and increasing material costs, which has now partners. We met representatives of the South West been exacerbated by the fall in demand for marketing regional development agency, and I thank Ann O’Driscoll and printed material. A local firm, for instance—this is for helping us with the paper that she prepared. We also not untypical—has had dramatically to reduce its work met representatives of the Learning and Skills Council, force and, what is more, renegotiate terms and conditions Jobcentre Plus, Gloucestershire Training Group—the with the remainder of its staff. Large vacant premises key vehicle for the training to take place—the Government are becoming a major issue due to the lack of demand Office for the South-West, Gloucestershire First and for such property, while current business rates, as the Business Link itself. As a result, we have been able to Minister knows, are a very serious problem indeed. develop very effective training packages. I thank the Government for the resources that they are potentially The final major point made to me by the local investing, and the way they have followed up the work chamber of commerce was that it is suffering from of those organisations. increasing demand for its services with a lack of any Government support. I have to report to the Minister—I We have offered support to both Delphi and Renishaw, say it with some regret—that the Macclesfield chamber and are about to launch the training packages for real. of commerce has failed to secure a contract with the At first we envisaged quite a small number of positions, Northwest Regional Development Agency, which has but the number rose to 1,100. It is likely to stabilise at once again gone to a large commercial provider, despite about 450, but because the scheme is voluntary, the the fact that the chamber of commerce is so closely in door is open for others to “upskill” themselves so that touch with industry in the area. I hope that the Minister they can take advantage of what the Government have will pay some attention to this matter and make some offered. We believe that this is a model that could be inquiries into it. adopted in other areas. It is the south-west’s equivalent Let me tell the Minister that I feel passionately about of Proact. As I said to my right hon. Friend the Minister, manufacturing industry. Over all my years in the House, it is disappointing that Proact seems not to have taken I have been an advocate of manufacturing industry off as effectively as it might have. because of the role it plays in the economy of any I am immensely proud of what has been done in my successful country. Will the Minister please take the constituency. When people think of Stroud, they tend burdens off industry and not add to them; will he to think of rolling green hills, the creative industries and understand what industry is about? The fact is that tourism, but in fact it is still a major manufacturing businesses need money at this time, so why cannot the centre, which is why I have been so keen to ensure that Minister and the Government do more to encourage we keep as many people as possible in employment. the banks to provide the liquid capital and the resources that industry so desperately needs to survive until the Now that the scheme is up and running, it is important economy turns up? We rely on the Government to take to ensure that it develops. I want to make a number of very positive steps. points about it. I do not expect my right hon. Friend to respond to them all now, but I hope that in due course I can meet him with some of the representatives. Alternatively, 4.43 pm he might choose to write to me. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister First, some employers fear that they will have to pay will have heard my earlier intervention and my continuing if people do not complete the course, which is to be plea, together with those of my hon. Friends the Members supervised by Ofsted. It must be made clear that neither for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) and for those who train nor the employers who allow them to Chorley (Mr. Hoyle), for wage compensation. I shall train will be penalised. We must underwrite the cost. say no more about that now as I want to move on to Secondly, the awarding bodies—the qualifications more positive things, for which I thank the Government, academies—must recognise that if they charged individually but the Government need to recognise that the pleas the cost could become onerous, and that they should will not go away. drop their price for the collective numbers involved. In January this year, I approached a number of Thirdly, given that Train to Gain is capped, I hope that people in Gloucestershire to seek help with problems I my right hon. Friend will tell us how we can allay faced at that time. Two major companies in my constituency, people’s fears and reassure them that the funds will be Delphi and Renishaw, were laying off some members of there for both adults and young apprentices if we their work force and putting others on short-time working. choose to expand the scheme, as I hope we will. 1219 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1220

As I have said, the scheme is innovative, and it shows new technology centre in the Sedgefield constituency the Government working at their best. I hope that the has helped in the development of plastic electronics; compensation and contribution arrangements will still that is another example of us tapping into the skills of operate, but if this scheme works, it will be something of the people of the north-east, supported by this Government which everyone should be proud. agency that the Conservative party would do away with. A centre for innovation has been developed, too, where we will take forward cutting-edge technology on Teesside 4.50 pm to develop biotechnology, making energy from waste Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I did not think and mass. I would agree with much of what the Conservative The traditional skills are still there, too, to be deployed Front-Bench spokesman said, but I did agree with the and developed for the use of this nation, as has happened comment that we should not pretend that everything in in the north-east of England for centuries. When the the garden is rosy. That would be a disgrace, and very Minister began his comments, he spoke about the long unfair to the people who have lost their jobs, the companies history of manufacturing in this country, and there was that are struggling and the communities that are under some chatter about that. In my part of the world, we pressure. received a charter from Queen Elizabeth I to develop We are certainly impacted on by the worldwide recession, the first industrial-scale coal mining expeditions anywhere but we are also impacted on by decisions taken by in the world, and in the early 1700s we set up the first Governments in the past. I want to talk first about industrial-level ironworks, and we still want work today. decisions taken in the 1980s in the industry I worked We are ready, we are willing and we are very, very able in—coal mining—and the effect they had not just on to build the new high-speed trains that are at present up the people working in it, but on those working across for discussion. If the Minister really wants to do us a the whole of manufacturing industry. favour today, he should go to see the Secretary of State In the 1980s, the main way we supported underground for Transport and tell him to give the contract for the coal mine roadways was by putting in arch girders. Arch trains to the Tyne Valley yard, which just happens to be girders cost £108 a set, and they were used for every in my constituency. yard we moved. In 186 pits, we were moving thousands There is more to come for the future. There are real of yards a week. By the early 1990s, however, there were opportunities, if we grasp them between us. This is not hardly any pits left, and the impact on the steel industry a job that the Government alone can take on; there is of the fall in demand for that one piece of equipment also a role for the private sector. There is so much was massive. The manufacturing base was therefore potential in the coal reserves off the north-east of impacted on as a result of direct Government intervention, England. The new methods of accessing coal, including but the impact was not felt only in the nationalised underground gasification of coal, could transform the industries. Companies such as Huwood in my constituency, way coal is used to power the energy of the world. There which made conveyor belts, went to the wall; companies is more coal under the North sea off the north-east of such as Gullick Dobson and Dowty, which were making England than the whole world burns in a year, and we hydraulic supports, were no longer needed; and companies are leaving it there to rot. Joint work between the such as Anderson Boyes in Motherwell, which made Government and the private sector is needed in order to cutting-edge shearers and coal cutters in this country, access it. have now disappeared or are owned by German companies. Another development has also come to a standstill: That is a clear example of the failure of the market carbon capture and storage. There is much debate in the to deliver. industry about what to do. What infrastructure should We are now seeing what is happening as a result of we build? Should we build the equivalent of a B road or our Government having come into office in the 1990s. a motorway? If we build it too small, will it be fit for We have seen the introduction of the regional development purpose for the future? If we build it too large and agencies; in my part of the world, that has played a things do not work out, will we have we wasted money? major role in supporting manufacturing industry. Sadly, The truth is that while we are talking nothing is happening, however, the Leader of the Opposition says the regional but it needs to. paraphernalia, as he has described it, is one of the We are entering a world where turbines that are things that he has in his sights in the so-called attack on 140 metres high with blades 55 metres long—the total the quango state. If that happens, that will have a major sweep is 110 metres, which is more than the length of impact on support for manufacturing industry in the Wembley’s football pitch—are being built off Aberdeen. north-east of England. That is the sort of technology that we are getting into The regional development agency in the north-east and that is the sort of thing that we want to see off the has set up a manufacturing advisory service, which has north-east coast of our country. We can achieve that, played a major role in assisting more than 250 companies, but if we are to deliver it, the private sector and the helping them to save almost £4 million in the last two Government will need to step up to the plate. One of years alone. It has also helped to cut CO2 emissions by the biggest things we are going to be worrying about is almost 26,000 tonnes in the same period. The Government, the shortage of copper to provide the energy and the the regional development agency and manufacturers cabling from the sea to the shore. We have to get our act have between them set up the New and Renewable together on that. Again, it is down to us to work with Energy Centre in Blyth, which supports the development the private sector to ensure that that happens. The hon. of electric vehicles by Smith vehicles—part of Tanfield— Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) spoke near Consett. It also supports Nissan in developing about being a free marketeer, but I am sorry to say that electric cars; my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton the free market has failed this country and without total and Washington, East (Mr. Kemp) mentioned that. A Government intervention it will do so again. 1221 UK Manufacturing9 JULY 2009 UK Manufacturing 1222

4.55 pm low-carbon economy. Hon. Members have also stressed that we need to equip our workers with the skills to take Mr. McFadden: This short debate has shown the part in the low-carbon economy, and it is important to passion that exists in this House on the issue of create opportunities, as well as to know that the demand manufacturing. Of course this has been a changing exists. To that end, we have the Train to Gain programme, story for our nation and we no longer have as many we have 12,000 new apprenticeships this year and we large manufacturing plants with thousands of employees have 300,000 more higher education students than we as we did some decades ago. However, in that story of had when we came into office. Ensuring that our country change we must not be too quick to ascribe a story of has the skills to take part is crucial, and not only for failure and decline. economic reasons. If we do not ensure that, there will One of the themes to emerge from this debate is the be a great sense of exclusion from the economy of the impact of the recession on manufacturing. My hon. future, and we must guard against that. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson) rightly The third theme of the debate was demand, which said that it would be remiss of us not to acknowledge was raised specifically by my hon. Friend the Member that, given the people who have lost their jobs and the for West Bromwich, West (Mr. Bailey). He rightly said companies that have gone to the wall. We do acknowledge that the Government made a choice as the recession hit that, but I wish to say something about the scale of the to do what they could to stimulate demand, be that impact and to repeat the figures that I used in my through construction, other capital projects, the car opening comments. In the year to April, manufacturing scrappage scheme or action in other areas. We have output in the UK declined by 13 per cent., which done what we could to stimulate demand. I accept that compares with 14.6 per cent. in the United States, we must continue to work on the schemes that we 19.9 per cent. in France, 24.3 per cent. in Germany and have announced to ensure that they are effective. We more than 30 per cent. in Japan. There has been an have been active on some of the specific problems that effect and companies have gone to the wall, but the have been mentioned, for example in respect of discussions United Kingdom has not been hit disproportionately between Corus and EDF Energy about energy prices. hard compared with other countries—some countries have done worse. The final theme of this debate that I wish to mention is local pride. That can be seen in the companies mentioned A second theme was shown in the agreement across by hon. Members from across the House. Manufacturing the House on the importance of the transition to a gives shape and identity to our constituencies, and what low-carbon economy for our manufacturing future. The goes for our constituencies also goes for our country. hon. Members for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) That is why manufacturing is such a crucial part of our and for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John economic future. Thurso), and my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) commented on that. It is right that carbon Question put and agreed to. capture should be considered as part of that. This Resolved, country has to make the most of the transition to a That this House has considered the matter of UK manufacturing. 1223 9 JULY 2009 Nuclear Weapons Proliferation 1224

Nuclear Weapons Proliferation All the while, resentment continued to grow towards the nuclear weapons states that their disarmament obligation Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House was not being met. do now adjourn.—(Mary Creagh.) The link between non-proliferation work and 5pm disarmament is strong, and is brought out in the recent report of the Foreign Affairs Committee. It is far more Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East) (Lab): I am very difficult to deal effectively with a less co-operative state, pleased to have the opportunity to bring the important or to build support for measures to strengthen anti- and urgent matter of nuclear weapons proliferation proliferation work, if dissenting parties can point to the before the House. The nuclear non-proliferation treaty, failure of the nuclear weapons states to make progress or NPT, is the cornerstone of the international non- towards disarmament. At this point, I will restate my proliferation regime. The treaty came into force in 1970 own view that the UK’s decision to replace Trident is and is recognised as having been a real success. It was a setback. negotiated at a time when there was a very real danger that the number of states with nuclear weapons could Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): My right hon. reach 20 or more within a decade or so. The fact that Friend might be coming on to this point, but the that did not happen is recognised as being in large part decision to go through the initial gate—possibly in due to the treaty. The NPT is also given credit for the September when the House is not sitting—is more than decision of a number of states that had set out on a little bizarre. Does he agree that the Government nuclear weapons programmes, or that had inherited ought to be brought kicking and screaming back to this nuclear weapons from their Soviet predecessors, to abandon place—certainly as the Americans and Russians have that path. moved the debate on—so that we can properly debate The NPT is essentially a deal between those of us whether that is the right way forward? with nuclear weapons and those without. The non-nuclear weapons states agree not to pursue nuclear weapons. In Dr. Strang: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that return, they have access to civil nuclear energy and a intervention. I agree. There is real concern—certainly promise of disarmament from the five recognised nuclear among Labour Members—about the September decision. weapons states—China, the US, Russia, the UK and I do not quite see why it has to be made in September France. While the so called “grand bargain” at the heart and I would like to think that there could be some of the NPT is easily described, supporting and enforcing movement on this point. We know that the Trident it is a constantly changing task as technology advances replacement bid is a big issue that will not go away—far and politics shift. The fundamental issue is whether the from it, as it seems to be getting more and more NPT is the way forward for the next 20 years. prominent for a range of reasons. My view, like that of The developments in nuclear proliferation have been my hon. Friend, I think, is that Trident should have something of a roller coaster ride in the past two been cancelled many years ago. However, I agree with decades. Following the end of the cold war, steps were his point. taken to strengthen the non-proliferation regime, and Having endured those bleak years, are we now on the the NPT review conferences of 1995 and 2000 gave us way up? There are, in my view, real grounds for optimism. real grounds for optimism. The first is the new Administration in the United States. Review conferences are held every five years as part My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Bill Rammell), of the ongoing operation to ensure that the mechanisms then Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth in place to protect the world from nuclear proliferation Office, told the Foreign Affairs Committee: are up to the job. The conferences of 1995 and 2000 “The prospects for disarmament under President Obama are were significant successes, with the conference in 2000 much greater and stronger than they were under President Bush.” adopting a 13-step programme of action for the That, I think, is incontrovertible. total elimination of the nuclear arsenals of the nuclear weapons states. The new President has declared that he wants to work From 2000 onwards, however, we have been going towards a world without nuclear weapons, to pursue the backwards. The last review conference, in 2005, ended US ratification of the vital comprehensive test ban in failure. Nothing was achieved. Later in 2005, further treaty and to support a verified fissile material cut-off efforts to strengthen the regime were made at the UN treaty. As the House will be aware, the US and Russia millennium summit, based on Kofi Annan’s high-level made progress earlier this week on a joint understanding panel report, “In Larger Freedom”. Again, these efforts for a new strategic arms reduction treaty. The START got nowhere. In the meantime, the United States and follow-on treaty would reduce the number of deployed India reached a deal that significantly undermined the strategic warheads and delivery vehicles. Surely that NPT central bargain. India is a non-NPT country, yet encouraging development points up the difference in the US agreed to supply India with civil nuclear fuel President Obama’s approach from that of his predecessor. and technology. I would go so far as to say that President Obama provides us with the best hope we have had for years in I am sure that other parties were content to see the the area of non-proliferation. lack of progress and content to let the US take the blame, but it is clear that the previous US Administration Our own Government have shown that they are seized were not working to strengthen the global non-proliferation of the importance of progress at next year’s NPT review regime, to say the least. The former UK ambassador to conference. In March, the Prime Minister announced the UN, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, has said: that the UK is to work with other countries to set out a “From the year 2000 onwards...the George W Bush administration “Road to 2010” plan. I understand that publication is applied itself quite deliberately to the de-construction of rules-based likely to come before the House rises, and I hope that systems in the fields of arms control and disarmament.” is right. 1225 Nuclear Weapons Proliferation9 JULY 2009 Nuclear Weapons Proliferation 1226

[Dr. Strang] Sixthly, we nuclear weapons states must take steps to de-alert our existing arsenals, reduce our dependence There are signs of movement at an international on those arsenals in our defence policies, and improve level, too. In May the preparatory committee agreed by our levels of transparency. As UN Secretary-General consensus an agenda for the 2010 NPT review conference. Ban Ki-moon has pointed out, the fact that we do not That might not sound like much, but it is a lot better even have an authoritative estimate of the total number than what has been achieved in the past. Indeed, it was of nuclear weapons attests to the need for greater the first time that that has been achieved in the preparatory transparency. committee for 15 years. Later in May, the UN conference Finally, we nuclear weapons states have an obligation on disarmament, which had been deadlocked for 12 years, to disarm. As I have said, disarmament is one of the agreed a programme of work, including the negotiation three pillars of the NPT, and the world is watching of a fissile material cut-off treaty. closely. The progress towards a successor to START It seems there is indeed scope for progress, and it is made by the US and Russia this week is an encouraging vital that we seize this opportunity, because the challenges step in the right direction. Non-nuclear weapons states that we face are urgent. Iran and North Korea are NPT will need to see that we nuclear weapons states have signatories and they have breached their NPT an ongoing commitment to further, deeper cuts in obligations—North Korea has tested nuclear devices. our arsenals. India, Israel and Pakistan have all acquired nuclear This week, Robert McNamara, US Defence Secretary weapons since the treaty came into force, with major during the Cuban missile crisis, died. Unlike most hon. implications for security in their regions. All three refuse Members, I can remember the Cuban missile crisis. I to join the NPT. The NPT nuclear weapons states still was a student and can remember the genuine fear that hold massive nuclear arsenals, and would continue to we all—students and university lecturers—felt at the do so even after the planned START follow-on treaty is time. Forty years after that crisis, McNamara famously fully implemented. revealed how close the world came to nuclear war. The security of nuclear material is a great concern, He said: especially as the use of civil nuclear power worldwide is “It was luck that prevented nuclear war...Rational individuals expected to expand. The A.Q. Khan proliferation network came that close to total destruction of their societies. And that shows the ongoing threat of the illicit transfer of technology danger exists today.” and materials, and the threat of terrorist efforts to The case for a world without nuclear weapons was acquire nuclear weapons and materials is surely a continual made by Robert McNamara in one sentence, and I will concern. close with it today. He said: So how do we proceed? Looking to the 2010 review “The major lesson of the Cuban missile crisis is this: the conference and beyond, a consensus has been emerging indefinite combination of human fallibility and nuclear weapons over some of the steps that need to be taken. First, we will destroy nations.” must see the early entry into force of the comprehensive Surely the greatest security challenge facing us today test ban treaty. It can come into force only when all five is to do all that we can to ensure that that does not nuclear weapons states and all states with civil nuclear happen—not in our lifetimes, not in our children’s reactors have signed. Nine such states, including the lifetimes, not in our children’s children’s lifetimes: not as United States and China, have still to make this long as mankind inhabits this planet. commitment. As I have mentioned, President Obama has pledged to pursue this, and the fact that the Senate is Democrat-led gives further ground for hope. 5.13 pm Secondly, to strengthen measures that prevent the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign illegal diversion of material to nuclear weapons and Commonwealth Affairs (Chris Bryant): I wholeheartedly programmes, we must have universal adoption of the congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for International Atomic Energy Agency’s additional protocol, Edinburgh, East (Dr. Strang) on securing this debate. which allows inspectors more intrusive access. The As he rightly pointed out, this issue is one of the most Government recognise that progress here is a priority. important issues facing our generation, and generations Thirdly, a fissile material cut-off treaty would halt the yet to come. What the present generation faces is different further production of plutonium and weapons-grade from what a slightly older generation faced, but this is a uranium. The Government have identified that as an matter of timely concern. essential step towards a world without nuclear weapons First and foremost, the debate is timely because in and, as I have mentioned, President Obama has reversed Moscow this week President Obama and President the position of the previous Administration and reinstated Medvedev signed a successor to the strategic arms US support for the treaty. reduction treaty. Over seven years, it will lead to a fairly Fourthly, moves to guarantee supplies of fuel for dramatic reduction in the number of warheads held by peaceful nuclear energy uses, enabling countries to forgo the two countries, limiting each to an arsenal of between the development of fuel-cycle facilities, would limit the 1,500 and 1,675 weapons. That is something we heartily risk of diversion and of terrorist intervention. If progress welcome, and which we might not have thought possible is to be made here, participating states must have absolute two or three years ago. confidence that supplies would be guaranteed. The debate is also timely because the UK has an Fifthly, we need proper enforcement measures for extremely strong record in this area. Since the cold war states that breach or withdraw from the NPT system—a we have reduced our nuclear firepower by 75 per cent. point made by President Obama in his speech earlier Since 1997, we have reduced the number of warheads this year in Prague. I am pleased to say that this is also a by 50 per cent., and I think all Labour Members, and priority of the UK Government. for that matter all members of the Labour party, take 1227 Nuclear Weapons Proliferation9 JULY 2009 Nuclear Weapons Proliferation 1228 particular pride in that. The UK’s firepower now represents opportunity to move beyond its obligations, and the less than 1 per cent. of the global total. Worldwide international community stands firm in response to figures for nuclear weaponry are now the lowest since what Iran has been doing. the 1950s. Indeed, as my right hon. Friend said, the next five-yearly review conference of the non-proliferation We need to strengthen enforcement, because where treaty will be in 2010—next year—so it is timely for us there is early cognisance of clandestine activity that to be looking at such issues. could be used to move towards producing nuclear weaponry, there should be robust sanctions, as there have been in As my right hon. Friend pointed out, there are some the cases of North Korea and Iran. There should be strong reasons for a degree of optimism. Not only did tough consequences for those who seek to withdraw we see the agreement between the United States of from the non-proliferation treaty, and we want to clarify America and Russia this week, but we also have President article X of that treaty. We are interested in the proposals Obama’s clear and unambiguous pledge to seek ratification that have come from the European Union, and we want of the comprehensive test ban treaty. As my right to make sure that the clarification goes ahead; we will hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out earlier this work with our allies to make sure that it does. It is year, there is probably greater optimism about wider clearly important that we secure fissile material. One of ratification of the treaty than there has been for some the greatest dangers to security around the world is the considerable time. possibility of rogue states or rogue organisations gaining Other countries have played a notable role. I single access to fissile material. For that reason, we have out two. Since Brazil joined the non-proliferation treaty doubled our contribution to the funding of the International in the 1990s, it has provided energetic leadership around Atomic Energy Agency nuclear security fund. the world, in particular in Latin America. The UK has had a strong, high-level bilateral commitment with Brazil The Government believe that the prospects for the since 2007. Similarly, when South Africa decided to comprehensive test ban treaty—an issue raised by my change its position on nuclear weapons, it too took up right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East—and, energetic leadership on such issues around the world, for that matter, a fissile material cut-off treaty, are and we want to work closely with South Africa on brighter than they have been for a good many years. We them. We also have strong bilateral relations with Russia will continue to make a powerful case for all states to in that regard and are keen to continue that work. sign up to, and ratify, the comprehensive test ban treaty. We also want talks on a treaty to cap the production of My right hon. Friend was right to point out that early fissile material for explosive military purposes to be on, before the non-proliferation treaty came into force under way by early next year. Nationally, we will continue in 1970, many academics in the UK and around the our groundbreaking work with Norway and the non- world believed that by the early 1970s the number of governmental organisation VERTIC—the Verification countries with nuclear weapons would rise to between Research, Training and Information Centre—on the 25 and 30. However, there are now 189 members of the science of verifying warhead reduction. We will host a treaty and only three countries stand outside it, so there conference for the nuclear weapon states on confidence- are reasons for optimism, but as has been pointed out, building measures, including the verification of there are significant reasons for concern too. disarmament, later this year, in September. Everybody in this country and the rest of the world who has seen the news about North Korea this year is My right hon. Friend referred to Trident, as did my concerned about the situation there. With a second hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew), who is nuclear explosion in May, North Korea has shown open not now in the Chamber. Let me make it clear that the defiance of its obligations. I am glad that the United decision made was to begin the concept and design Nations moved swiftly, and the Security Council provided work required to make possible a replacement for our an unambiguous response. Similarly, Iran continues to current ballistic missile submarine fleet, and to maintain enrich uranium in open defiance of numerous Security the option of using the Trident D5 missile beyond its Council resolutions. Let me make it absolutely plain current life expectancy. That does not mean that we that we as a country and a Government want further have taken an irreversible decision that commits us cuts in stockpiles in all countries that retain nuclear irrevocably to possessing nuclear weapons for the next weapons. 40 to 50 years. Nor does it mean that we have decided to “replace Trident”, as my right hon. Friend the Member The world community is presented with a significant for Edinburgh, East put it. It is true that, as I have said, new problem, or challenge, by the expansion of nuclear we have decided to begin concept and design work to energy. We need to make sure that there is security in the make possible a replacement for the platform, but that production of fissile material, and that countries moving is not a replacement for Trident itself. That is not a towards nuclear energy options—often in response decision to which we are committed for ever and a day. to rightful climate change concerns—are doing so for peaceful ends. Of course, we would be happy, if it seemed appropriate, There are key issues that we need to address. First, we to place our small proportion of the worldwide nuclear want a strengthening of the mechanisms and institutions arsenal on the table as part of a multinational process that surrounded the issue of non-proliferation. We want of disarmament. Indeed, we very much hope that there to make sure that there is early and absolutely certain will be further moves towards multinational disarmament, detection of clandestine activity in countries around the and we would very much want to be part of those world. If we had been able to detect that more certainly negotiations. I point out to my hon. Friend the Member in the case of Iran, we might have been able to provide a for Stroud that bearing in mind that our nuclear arsenal far clearer and far earlier response from the international amounts to a mere 1 per cent. of the global total, we do community, but we also point out that Iran has no not believe that a unilateral decision to make it impossible 1229 Nuclear Weapons Proliferation9 JULY 2009 Nuclear Weapons Proliferation 1230

[Chris Bryant] responsibilities for those countries which forgo nuclear weapons. But it is also a bargain under which there are tough responsibilities for us to maintain Trident beyond its current life expectancy to be discharged by nuclear weapon states, for as successor states would make the dramatic difference that some suggest we cannot expect to successfully exercise moral and political leadership in preventing the proliferation of nuclear weapons if it would. we ourselves do not demonstrate leadership on the question of I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for disarmament of our weapons.” Edinburgh, East for the opportunity to clarify these That was what the Prime Minister said earlier this matters. I end by quoting from a speech made by my year. We will be publishing soon a document entitled right hon. Friend the Prime Minister earlier this year, “The Road to 2010”, in which we will lay out a credible when he said: road map to further disarmament because we, like my “Now in 2005 the Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, East and failed. We cannot afford to fail next year”— my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud, want to live in when the next review conference comes around. He a world that is free of the fear of nuclear weaponry. continued: Question put and agreed to. “So as we approach the 2010 Review Conference I want us to renew and refresh for our times the grand global bargain, the covenant of hope between nations at the heart of the Non-Proliferation 5.26 pm Treaty. It is a bargain under which we reaffirm the rights and House adjourned. 321WH 9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 322WH

The regime has clearly decided that it will hold on to Westminster Hall power at all costs. Robert Tait wrote in The Guardian: “Legitimate election wins are generally not accompanied by mass arrests of opposition members, the blocking of mobile Thursday 9 July 2009 phone networks and a multitude of news websites, or the forced closure of other candidates’ headquarters, to name but three highly irregular developments that have all the hallmarks of a [MR.JOE BENTON in the Chair] coup d’état.” Iranian Opposition figures, some clerics, other people Global Security (Iran) in Iran and people internationally are saying that a [Relevant documents: Fifth Report from the Foreign form of military coup d’état is happening in that complex Affairs Committee Session 2007-08 HC 142 and the country against elements within the clerical regime. Government’s response Cm 7361.] It is reported today that the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Ali Khamenei, has allowed his second son, Mojtaba, to be now adjourned.—(Lyn Brown.) take control of the Basij militia. He apparently has access to billions of dollars in other countries and it is rumoured that he is being groomed to take over and 2.30 pm form a dynastic leadership in the future. We do not Mike Gapes (Ilford, South) (Lab/Co-op): I am pleased know whether that will happen, but there is a clear to introduce this debate on the Foreign Affairs Committee power struggle between the security, intelligence, military report, “Global Security: Iran”, which was published in and clerical elements of the regime. We do not know February 2008, and the Government’s response, which what the outcome will be. The millions of Iranians who was published in May 2008. Although those documents voted for change and have gone on to the streets to were published some time ago, many of our conclusions protest for change are not participants in the internal are unfortunately still pertinent. This is a good opportunity power struggle in the theocratic regime. for the House to have a three-hour debate on Iran. The Select Committee went on a fascinating visit to There was a debate on human rights yesterday, but I Iran. I am glad that other Select Committee members hope to go beyond human rights and to discuss the are present. They will no doubt add to what I say in more complex issues of Iran’s role in the world and its their contributions. I was struck by how young and relationships with its neighbours. dynamic that society is. I was also struck by people’s I will begin by drawing out one of the most important willingness and desire to talk to us. Young women conclusions of the Select Committee report: outside the main mosque in Isfahan and traders in the “We conclude that Iran is a complex and diverse society at bazaar in Tehran came up to us and wanted to engage present governed by a theocratic regime. Iran’s quasi-democratic with us openly. A man in the bazaar told us, “This political system is not fully closed and may lead to reform that Government are corrupt, incompetent and useless. We will result in a more constructive approach on the nuclear issue. don’t get any tourists or trade any more. It is really good We recommend that the Government should be careful to avoid that you are here.” Our minder from the Iranian Foreign action that could be manipulated by the hardliners such as Ministry was standing next to us, but the trader did not President Ahmadinejad to bolster their position against the more pragmatic and reformist elements ahead of his campaign for care. He wanted to engage with us for 40 minutes and to re-election in 2009.” tell us about his problems and how he wanted to have better relations with the rest of the world. The Government’s response stated: “The Government believes that Iran’s internal political debates The Iranian regime is holding down a bubbling ferment are for the Iranian people themselves to resolve.” of ideas and a wish to engage with the rest of the world. It is quite clear that the election of 12 June was Iran is one of the oldest civilisations, with 3,000 years of rigged. Despite huge support for the Opposition candidates, history. Iranians of all kinds are proud of their history the incumbent, President Ahmadinejad, was apparently and culture. They wish to share it and to engage with re-elected with 63 per cent. of the votes and with more other countries. However, while they are run by a than 100 per cent. of the votes cast in some districts. holocaust-denying extremist and a regime that sponsors terrorism in other countries and is in breach of its The election was followed by massive protests. Three obligations under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, weeks ago, The Economist stated: the people of Iran will not be able to engage fully with “In the three decades since the Islamic Republic was founded, the rest of the world in the way that they wish. Iran has not been rocked like this. Tehran is engulfed in huge marches every day. Women in chadors, bus conductors, shopkeepers and even turbanned clerics have joined the joyous show of people Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I congratulate power. Nationwide strikes are planned.” the Select Committee Chairman on his observations so Since then there has been massive, systematic, organised far. Does he agree that Iran is in breach of the UN repression of the protestors. Thousands of people have convention on human rights, of which it is a signatory? disappeared or been arrested. It has been admitted that Yesterday, we had a good debate on the plight of more than 200 people have been killed. There were Baha’is and others who have sadly been persecuted in scenes on the internet of a young woman being killed in Iran, particularly in recent months. Does he agree that the street. There are attacks on universities, raids on such desperate persecution contradicts the spirit and people’s homes and knocks on doors in the night. The character of the Iranian people? systematic, organised intimidation of the Opposition is such that anybody who speaks out is extremely courageous. Mike Gapes: Yes, I do agree, but I also think that we Yet there are still people speaking out. People are using need to be careful. The situation that the hon. Gentleman different ways to protest. has described is appalling. Iran executes more people 323WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 324WH

[Mike Gapes] to persuade whoever in the regime is holding that man to release him and to stop the harassment of people per head of population than any other country in the who work for our embassy in Iran. world, and carries out more executions than any country I have discussed how the regime has been behaving, except China. People are still stoned to death and there but let me discuss these issues more widely. The regime is a criminal code that is used in a most brutal and has been systematically trying to prevent the truth from repressive way—that was discussed in yesterday’s debate, coming out, but has found that rather difficult. In the so I shall not go into it now. The regime has tried to age of the mobile phone and Twitter, people take portray the problems that it is now confronting as photographs and send them around the world, and can having somehow been created by international forces or describe very quickly to websites all over the world what by people internally who are in league with international is happening within Iran. The regime has tried to stop forces. Ayatollah Khamenei has been quoted as saying: broadcasts and to intimidate the people who are engaged “The diplomats who have talked to us with courtesy up to now in those activities, but it has not been successful. Since have in the past few days taken the masks away from their faces January of this year, the BBC Persian television service and are showing their true image”. has been an important voice for the Iranian people. I He has referred to western countries as “hungry wolves” pay tribute to the people who work for that service, and and said: to the people who work in other broadcast media, in “They are showing their true enmity towards the Iranian difficult circumstances, for what they do. Islamic state and the most evil of them is the British government.” I understand that following the election in Iran, from Britain’s relations with Iran have a long history, and polling day onwards, the BBC television service, other some have been quite difficult. Anyone who watched BBC services and other broadcasters on the so-called BBC4 over the weekend may have seen its four hours of HOT BIRD 6 satellite have been subject to deliberate programmes about Iran, which included some interesting interference. BBC Arabic television and various language stories about what was happening there in 1909, about services have also experienced transmission problems, the role of British oil companies and about the British including being taken off the air at certain times. There Government’s encouragement and support for the coup has been a deliberate attempt to prevent people who against the democratically elected Mossaddeq Government listen in Farsi or Arabic from getting the truth about in the 1950s. But none of that excuses the systematic what is going on in their country. The regime has tried harassment of people who work for the British Government to narrow the focus and to prevent news reports about in Iran, or the arrests of nine locally employed Iranian what is really happening. I am pleased that the BBC has members of the British embassy staff. None of it justifies done what it can to counteract that, including extending the expulsion of two British diplomats, or the expulsion the hours of its news programmes and radio broadcasts. of the BBC correspondent in Iran. It is clear that audiences in Iran—the Iranian people who are able to watch or listen to those BBC programmes Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): and broadcasts—have been very positive about them. We know some of the Iranian nationals who have Although BBC Persian’s online services have been worked for the British embassy in Tehran because they partially blocked since 2006, its website, BBCPersian.com, looked after us so well on our visit. That highlights the has had a huge growth in usage since the events of responsibility that the British Government have not just recent weeks. Compared to traffic in May, the number to their own nationals but to foreign nationals who of daily page impressions has increased sevenfold to work for us. Does my hon. Friend agree? more than 3.6 million, and the number of visitors to the website has gone up fourfold. That is an indication of Mike Gapes: I absolutely agree; we were very well the interest not only in Iran, but in other parts of the looked after, not just by our diplomats but by the world, and is clearly very important. Iranians who worked in the British embassy. They The Iranian Government have expelled the BBC worked tirelessly to make our visit in November 2007 correspondent, Jon Leyne, and have prevented his such a success. temporary replacement, Jeremy Bowen, from moving The one person who is still detained, and who has around the streets freely. That is an indication that they apparently been threatened with being put on trial for do not wish BBC broadcasters to know what is going acting against national security is a 44-year-old Iranian on in their country or to meet independent voices, who is the British embassy’s chief political analyst. His opposition figures or protestors to get the truth of what name has been in the public domain, so I shall use is happening. It is vital that we in this country ask why it—Hossein Rassam. We know him because he looked on earth, if the Iranian Government can have their after us and went with us to Isfahan on a six-hour propaganda organ Press TV broadcasting their propaganda journey, during which we discussed Iranian culture, in London and paying some people from this country, history and cookery. That was an absolutely fascinating who should perhaps know better, to go on it, the journey—sitting with him in that vehicle and learning Iranians do not allow unfettered broadcasting by the about his country and its culture. That man is potentially BBC and other British broadcasters in their country. going to be put on trial by the regime, and it is an The Iranian leadership has also been targeting Britain absolute outrage that any country anywhere in the for another reason. They seem to think that it is not world persecutes, harasses and imprisons people who wise politics, at this time, overtly to antagonise the work for our Government. It is a basic and fundamental United States of America. Since the election of President right that people who work in foreign embassies should Obama, there has been a change in rhetoric from be allowed to do so without being persecuted or harassed. Washington and the possibility of an open hand being I call on the Iranian politicians whom we met—our extended to Iran, rather than what was seen before as a equivalents in the Iranian Majlis—to do what they can closed fist. 325WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 326WH

I think the Iranians have decided that it is easier to vilify Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I have tried to and traduce what they regard as the little Satan than to restrain myself on that issue, but I must point out that attack what they have called the big Satan. although the Chairman of the Committee, my hon. However, I am pleased that, so far, there has not been Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes), is a lack of support internationally for the British correct to criticise other countries, the money laundering Government’s robust response. President Sarkozy of capital for the Iranian regime has been London. That France has expressed full solidarity with the British has taken place with the full knowledge and consent of Government over these recent difficulties and the European the United Kingdom regulatory authorities. That is the Union, led by Foreign Minister Carl Bildt on behalf of great criticism we should make. Her Majesty’s Government the Swedish presidency, has made some strong statements. have not denied that it is happening. I raised the issue in I am very pleased that so far the European Union is an Adjournment debate and the Government said that working together in harmony on these matters. I would they have since altered the ground rules. However, the be grateful if the Minister updated us on the discussions truth is that the purchasing of technologies by the that have taken place in the past few days, and on the regime, particularly in north America, has been done EU’s preparedness to take action collectively if the through London, under our very noses. Iranians decide to escalate the situation and up the ante by removing diplomatic status from people in Iran, or if Mike Gapes: I have some sympathy with my hon. they decide to put people on trial. Friend. In fact, on finances, an article about Mojtaba Khamenei’s international rule states: Mr. John Horam (Orpington) (Con): The hon. “There are claims on Iranian dissident websites that the current Gentleman is making an important point and a very anti-British campaign in Tehran is motivated in part by Britain’s announcement on 18 June that it had frozen nearly £1bn in good speech. I would also like to hear what the Minister Iranian assets, in accordance with UN and EU sanctions. The has to say about the matter he has just raised, because frozen funds included a lot of Mojtaba’s money, it is claimed.” we need a more unified approach in Europe than we appear to have so far. I have noticed that the Germans Perhaps there is some connection between that and the and Italians are not quite as strong in their condemnation rhetoric that we saw the same day, or a day later, from as the French, to whom we should give credit. If we are Mojtaba Khamenei’s father and the other clerics. I to have an effect on the Iranian regime, we need a united agree that London is important in the context of global European approach to what we say and the sanctions financial institutions and that we need to do whatever we operate. we can—not just in London, but elsewhere—to make sure that international sanctions are effective. I am conscious of time and that there are many Mike Gapes: I think the Minister has heard the hon. Members here. I shall not delay them for too long, but Gentleman’s point. there is one other area that I wish to highlight. No Before I move on to one or two other matters, I would doubt other Members will talk about the Iranian role in like to raise the question of how we get out of the the region, but clearly there has been a great deal of current situation. It seems that calls for a recount of the concern about the nuclear issue and the way in which election—although those have now been rejected—were, Iran has been breaching its obligations under the in any case, mistaken. The regime has clearly shown International Atomic Energy Agency and the non- that it does not in any way wish to give up power, and proliferation treaty. Our report was published in 2008 what was regarded as a velvet coup by Ahmadinejad and much has happened since then. However, fortunately when he won in 2005 has become a violent and repressive the Committee is very busy and, on 14 June, we published coup to retain power. That raises questions about how a major report entitled “Global Security: Non- the rest of the world should respond. The issue is Proliferation,” in which we were able at least briefly to difficult because we do not hold many levers against the provide an update on what has been happening with Iranian regime directly; however, we do have some and that matter in Iran. we need to think about those. Developments in recent months have clearly shown There is, of course, the issue of information and the that there is a growing concern within the IAEA that role of the BBC and others, but we also have to think the Iranian regime is rapidly building centrifuges in about economic relations and trade, which relates to the order to develop enriched uranium. The Russians tried remarks of the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Horam). to bring in an international system whereby Iran could Clearly, the Iranian regime is facing a crisis concerning access that via an international facility, and there have the lack of economic modernisation and the growing been other suggestions about having some kind of fuel population of young people. Iran desperately needs bank, including from our Prime Minister in his important foreign investment to enable it to modernise its speech at Lancaster House in March. I would be grateful infrastructure, particularly its oil and gas industries. if the Government said where we are on the implementation However, it also needs foreign technology if it is to of alternatives, and whether Iran has indicated any kind develop in the way to which it aspires. of positive response. Frankly, as we have pointed out in Effective, targeted sanctions such as those already in previous reports, in the next few years Iran could be place from the European Union, the United States and very close to having the breakout capability to possess a others have already had an impact on the Iranian nuclear weapon, and because it has missile technology, economy. However, in terms of international action, we that could pose a potential threat to southern Europe also need to look at what goes on in places such as the and a large number of countries in the middle east. Emirates in Dubai, where the Iranians have a very If Iran becomes a nuclear weapon state, it is not just successful smuggling operation and pursue activities to the Israelis who will be very concerned. As we point out bypass the international sanctions regime. in our non-proliferation report, such a situation would 327WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 328WH

[Mike Gapes] much rather concentrate solely on nuclear or trade issues. At the end of the day, there are international also be a trigger for a number of Arab countries, such as standards. Iran is a signatory to various international Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others, to get what could be covenants and the non-proliferation treaty, and it must regarded as a Sunni bomb in the middle east, as opposed be held to those standards. to the Shi’a bomb that the Iranians might develop. In conclusion, I believe there is potential for real Given that Pakistan already has a developed nuclear change in Iran. I am not certain, however, that this weapons capability and has tested nuclear weapons—as period—this year—will see such change. The assumption we know through the A.Q. Khan network, unfortunately, that what will follow in Iran will be some form of colour it has also been prepared to sell nuclear material and revolution, such as that which took place in Georgia plans to other countries—there is a real danger that a and Ukraine, fails to appreciate the complexities of that cycle of nuclear weapon proliferation in the middle east society. It is not right for us just to assume that that is could be triggered by Iranian actions in the next few likely to happen. weeks or months. Our Government and Parliament need to have a sophisticated approach. Crude calls for regime change, Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): That is the or funding or supporting particular opposition groups, crux of the problem with Iran at the moment. Does my would play into the hands of the regime, which would hon. Friend agree that, given all the other terrible things say that it has proof of the British conspiracy against it. that are happening—we had a good debate yesterday on However, we should use all the channels that we have to the human rights issues—until we can sort out the continue to argue the case for positive engagement with nuclear question with Iran, it will be a very dangerous the Iranian people, because they deserve far more than regime? There must be some inducements that we can the Government who, sadly, are currently repressing offer it to separate the nuclear energy programme from them. nuclear weaponry. 3.5 pm Mike Gapes: Iran’s regime is dangerous because it feels under threat from its own people and is worried Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): I about its survival. It also has fears about the future and congratulate the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs legitimacy of its revolution. An interesting question is Committee, the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mike whether the new US approach is more threatening to Gapes), on a fine speech. I strongly echo the sentiments the regime than the old one. It could be argued that he expressed on human rights and the other issues that people in authoritarian, theocratic regimes would much he covered. The debate is on a report that we published prefer the rest of the world to cut them off rather than just over a year ago, but it could not be more timely, so I be open to them, because sheer openness will mean that am glad that the Chairman has taken the opportunity the people of the country get more access to ideas and to secure the debate for the House at this time. ways of behaving that challenge the orthodoxy and I begin with the crux of the long-term issue between hierarchy of the society. My impression is that the our country and most of the countries of the world and Iranian people certainly have a thirst for contact and Iran: Iran’s remorseless march, year by year, towards communication with the rest of the world, not a desire becoming a nuclear weapons state. That march seems to to be cut off from it. be going down two tracks. It is going down the highly That raises some interesting questions about how the enriched uranium track, and it may also be going down US under the Obama presidency will behave. So far, the plutonium track. Alongside its efforts to produce there seem to be some interesting developments. Only weapons-grade fissile material, Iran is substantially adding this week, both President Obama and Vice-President to its ballistic missile delivery capabilities. Joseph Biden said, in separate interviews, that despite On page 13 of our report, we reproduce a map the crackdown and repression, the US will not be showing the range of Iran’s Shahab 3 Korean technology- deterred from seeking to engage in direct negotiations based missile. It has a 1,300 km range, making it capable with Iran. That is the right approach, but we should of striking Israel, Saudi Arabia, parts of southern have no illusions that engagement with people in the Russia and nearly the whole of Turkey. A few weeks regime and with its leadership will, by itself, change the ago, on 20 May, the Iranians successfully launched their regime’s behaviour. “Change in regime behaviour”, which indigenous, longer range 2,000 km ballistic missile, the I believe is a phrase used by Condoleezza Rice in a Sajil 2, which uses solid rather than liquid propellant, different context, is not at all certain in a period when which dramatically reduces its launch time scale. That the regime is afraid that even a small opening up—a missile will be capable of reaching a significant area of small movement—could result in a great crevice and western and southern Europe. then an outpouring in the country of forces it is afraid I noted a comment that was made in Jane’s Intelligence of and wishes to repress. Weekly on 1 June: President Obama stated: “Western analysts have largely described the Sajil-2 to the “We’ve got some fixed national security interests in Iran not media as a technological achievement that represents a leap in developing nuclear weapons, in not exporting terrorism, and we Iran’s ballistic missile capabilities.” have offered a pathway for Iran to rejoining the international There is no question but that if Iran were to develop a community.” nuclear weapon capability with its expanding ballistic However, that requires the international community to missile delivery range, the consequences would be extremely maintain certain standards and values, and to continue serious. There would be the regional consequences of to speak out against the repression and abuse of human an impetus to proliferation, and, of course, the huge, rights taking place in Iran, and not to say that it would unknown factor of the Israeli response. 329WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 330WH

The Committee visited Israel in March, at the time of The Foreign Office has acknowledged in public that the formation of the Netanyahu Government. We asked the Iranians are supplying arms to the Taliban; it has senior Israeli officials what the Israeli reaction would be referred in public to “arms convoys”; and it has said if Iran became a nuclear weapons state. The answer we that the Iranians are also supplying funding to the got—that all options are open—was fairly predictable. I Taliban. The Taliban are responsible for inflicting grievous believe that that is a correct statement: all options are loss of life on British service personnel and other allied open as far as Israel’s Government are concerned, personnel, as we have been profoundly shocked to see particularly the Netanyahu Government. That of course again this week, and they have been doing so for a means that military pre-emptive action is among the considerable period. options on the Israelis’ list, and the consequences of I have a specific request to put to the Government. I that are incalculable and potentially extremely serious. trust that they will be relentless in putting into the That brings us to the effectiveness or otherwise of the public domain, in so far as that is compatible with their policy that is being pursued year by year by our security obligations, such information as they can about Government, the European Union and the United Nations what the Iranians are actually doing in delivering weapons, Security Council—a policy of trying to bring about a technology, training and funding to the Taliban. The halt in Iran’s remorseless march towards becoming a people of this country and people around the world will nuclear weapons state by peaceful means: pressure, then know precisely what the Iranian Government are coercion, inducement and enticement. On the evidence doing to support those in Afghanistan—the Taliban—who to date, that policy has been a complete failure. I regret offer nothing to the people of that country except having to say that, but that is what the factual evidence religious tyranny and the total suppression of human shows. The policy has been pursued year by year by rights, including the obliteration of human rights for year, and year by year by year Iran has marched women and girls. remorselessly towards becoming a nuclear weapons state. My question to the Minister, therefore, is whether he Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): My has any serious, significant grounds for believing that right hon. Friend is making a fascinating speech, but the passing of United Nations Security Council resolution my understanding is that the information held in the 1803 and the greater use of sanctions for which that Foreign Office is out of date and has no bearing on the resolution provides will have any more effect on Iran problem today. Does he agree? than previous United Nations Security Council resolutions. Are other peaceful polices open to us that will stop Sir John Stanley: I am afraid that I cannot judge how Iran’s relentless march? If the answer is no—I become up to date or out of date the information held by the increasingly fearful that it is—we are approaching an Foreign Office is, because only the Foreign Office can immensely dangerous situation in terms of nuclear do that. All that I can point to is what the Foreign proliferation, with the risk that the Israelis will feel that Office chose to make public in its response to our they have to do something by way of pre-emption. That report, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree is the burning policy question, and I look forward to that that in itself is profoundly disturbing. hearing what the Minister has to say in response. The Chairman of the Committee highlighted the role I will now move away from the possibilities and turn of the BBC, and I want to give a very hearty metaphorical to a profoundly important and immediate issue—the pat on the back not only to the BBC, but to the actuality of Iranian involvement in military operations Government, who have funded the establishment of the in Afghanistan. I draw hon. Members’ attention to BBC’s Persian TV service through their grant in aid to paragraph 77 of the Committee’s report, which states: the World Service. It was an excellent decision on the “We conclude that the reports that Taliban insurgents are part of the Government to provide that funding, because receiving support from Iran is a matter of very serious concern.” it completes the important range of services that the BBC has now established in relation to Iran. The BBC’s The Foreign Office’s published response to our conclusion Persian radio service has a very long history, going back is illuminating. It states: to the second world war—it is nearly 70 years old. In “However, we also have evidence of IRGC”— 2001, the BBC established its Persian online service, Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps— which has been very valuable; and in January this year, “Qods Force involvement in negative and destabilising activity in it established the BBC Persian TV service, as well. Afghanistan, including supplying arms and funding to the Taliban.” It is a reflection of just how effective and valuable The Foreign Office, in that public document, goes on to those services have been that the BBC has been singled say: out for condemnation and abuse by the Iranian “We will…continue to support ISAF and Afghan security Government. Indeed, when the Prime Minister was forces operations, with a view to intercepting further arms convoys taking questions on the Floor of the House on 23 June, coming from Iran”. I said that we should regard the degree of abuse being I repeat: heaped on this country and on the BBC as a considerable “arms convoys coming from Iran.” compliment, and I stand by that. That abuse reflects the effectiveness of what has been done. The document continues: “As for our analysis of the level of Iranian support, we wish to minimise the risks posed to our operations by public disclosure, 3.19 pm and the Government will write to the Committee.” Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. The Government did write to the Committee, and I reread last night the paper that they sent, for which we are grateful. Let us confine ourselves, however, to what 3.35 pm is in the public domain. On resuming— 331WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 332WH

Mr. Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order. For the benefit I have some specific questions for the Minister, and if of right hon. and hon. Members, the sitting will be he cannot answer them immediately, I hope that he will extended to allow for the break for the vote. write to me. Were any of our locally engaged staff in our Tehran embassy elevated to the paragraph 1 category, Sir John Stanley: As I was saying, the BBC has made so that they had diplomatic immunity covering their an excellent contribution through its Persian service on official duties before the recent events in Iran, and if radio, online and on television. Given the crucial nature not, why not? By any judgment, they were clearly at of the decision to expand the BBC’s Persian language risk. Given the intolerable, unacceptable and outrageous output, I trust that the Government will continue to treatment that the Iranian authorities handed out to give every possible support to the BBC in this area, nine of our locally engaged diplomatic staff, will the financially, technically and in any other way that they Foreign Office now review the risk to which such staff can to assist it, to ensure that that output on radio, are exposed in Iran, Russia and other countries around online and on television continues to be made available the world, and give immediate and serious consideration to as many people as possible in Iran. to whether they should be moved from the article 38, paragraph 2 category to the paragraph 1 category, so I want to mention the extraordinarily brave people that they at least have the protection of diplomatic led by Mr. Mousavi who are fighting for what I regard immunity covering their official duties? as the new Iran—the millions who voted for Mr. Mousavi and the huge numbers who attended his rallies and went Those of us who are privileged to serve on the out into the streets until they were brutally suppressed. Foreign Affairs Committee meet locally engaged staff Those people are the real hope for Iran. They might in all the embassies and high commissions that we visit even be the only hope for Iran. They are fighting for an around the world. Without exception, we are very impressed Iran that has true democracy, real freedoms, human by the quality of service that they provide and their rights and equality for women, and is not a threat to its loyalty and dedication to the British Government, despite neighbours. As we found in some of our contacts during being nationals of another country. I suggest to the our visit to Iran, they are people of extraordinary Minister, and through him to the Secretary of State, bravery and courage. They are putting everything they that in return for that loyalty we must ensure that have—their livelihoods, their freedoms and in some locally engaged Foreign Office staff around the world cases their lives—on the line to try to achieve a better, receive the maximum protection that we can provide freer and genuinely democratic Iran. I pay the strongest under the Vienna convention. tribute, as I am sure all hon. Members do, to their 3.44 pm immense bravery and courage. Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): The burning policy issue for the Foreign and Mr. Benton, I apologise to you, the Minister and right Commonwealth Office is what degree of protection hon. and hon. Members because I am between a rock should be afforded to locally engaged staff in our and a hard place. The rock is my duty here, and the hard overseas missions in countries such as Iran. I have place is a meeting being held in my constituency because, looked closely at the relevant terms of the 1961 Vienna as a constituent said in a letter to me, 18,000 houses are convention on diplomatic relations, and it is evident being dumped there. The House can imagine the outcry that article 38 contains provisions that divide locally that that has caused. Consequently, I must leave early, engaged staff into two categories. Under paragraph 1, it so I beg your indulgence, Mr. Benton, and apologise is open to a foreign Government to designate all or sincerely. some of its locally engaged staff as diplomatic agents. That at least gives them diplomatic immunity in respect I congratulate the hon. Member for Ilford, South of their official duties. For all the others, all that is left is (Mike Gapes) on securing this important debate at an paragraph 2, under which locally engaged staff get important time on an important subject. His speech diplomatic immunity only in so far as it may be granted opening the debate was immensely valuable and of the by the host country. One can safely assume that, in a highest quality. It has been a pleasure to listen to him. It place like Iran, there will be zero granting of diplomatic is also a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the immunity to those who fall into that second category. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley), a man of great stature in the House, whose statements The House will appreciate that this is not the first always have great credibility. I listened to him with rapt time that locally engaged Foreign Office staff have interest. He made some important points, which I am come under political pressure, and worse, from overseas sure the Minister has noted. Governments. We have had a spate of that in Russia, I congratulate the Committee on an excellently and it is now happening in Iran. Another key point constructed report. It was produced on 20 February, arose from a question that the hon. Member for Ilford, which impedes its import somewhat, but it contains South asked the Foreign Secretary, who said that of the much of we must take account. I also congratulate the FCO’s 16,000 diplomatic staff, 10,000—more than half—are Government on their full response in May. All that is locally engaged. That is a large number. I have looked at excellent, but it was blown out of the water on 12 June, the Foreign Office’s diplomatic service regulations and when the situation in Iran changed dramatically within was able to access the 2006 version. Those regulations 24 hours. That is not to say that there is not massively state: important information in the report and the response, “Diplomatic status may be conferred on non-Diplomatic Staff but we face a new situation in Iran, for which many of if their duties require it in order to meet the Post’s objectives.” us had hoped for many years, but few of us believed That sensible latitude is given to heads of mission to put would materialise in quite the way it did—in the number such locally engaged staff as they think fit into the of people who came out on the streets following what paragraph 1 category, so that they at least have diplomatic appeared to be an election that did not quite comply immunity for the performance of their official duties. with the rules that we try to apply in this country. 333WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 334WH

The situation is new, and we now know that there are have not had the effect that we would want. Paragraph 13 two Irans. There is the elderly, rural Iran, which until of the conclusions and recommendations states: now has in the main supported a mediaeval theocracy. “We conclude that although the sanctions currently in place That is the Iran that the Iranian propaganda machine against Iran act as a disincentive for its nuclear programme, they tried to tell us was totally and fully supported by the are not sufficiently robust to coax it into suspending its enrichment.” nation’s population. We now know that there is also a That supports the argument made by my right hon. new, young, urban, modern Iran, which supports change. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling when he The people who came out on the streets showed immense said that appeasement had not done its job on the courage in supporting change after an election that nuclear issue. millions believed to be without credibility. I believe that We have only to read another conclusion in the report the future lies with the latter Iran, and I am sure that we to find out about the effectiveness of the E3+3 diplomacy. all pray that it does. It is vital for the security of the Paragraph 4 of the conclusions and recommendations middle east and beyond that that is the case. states that The question now is: how do we work to achieve that “the E3+3’s diplomacy over Iran’s nuclear programme is currently objective as peacefully as possible? The Government a long way from successfully achieving all its goals.” must pay attention to that, and although I cannot be The truth is that there are two great findings: the here to listen to the Minister’s response, I shall read it in report’s finding that our effort to appease the regime Hansard with great interest. The truth is that we in this has failed and our sanctions have been ineffective, and country have appeased the former and taken little heed the subsequent finding that there is a greater rising of of the latter over the past few years. We have been the human spirit in Iran than was ever thought possible beguiled by the output of a state propaganda machine before. Whatever we say about the people who came on that told us that there was no real dissent, and that the to the streets, they did us a great service through their only people who dissented were anoraks, idiots, radicals— courage and endeavours, because never again can it be call them what you will—who are anti the Almighty, but said that there is no opposition to the regime internally. not the majority of Iran’s citizens. That propaganda has Of course there is opposition to the regime internally, been blown apart, so we must rethink the situation. The and we need to take great note of it and encourage report and the Government’s response do not take those people. If what we believe about freedom and that into account, nor could they. However, the events democracy in this country means anything, the need to of 12 June tell us that appeasement is not the way encourage those people must be paramount. forward. We have another view of what Iran is all about. It is that the younger, modern, thrusting element I am sure that that will be taken into account by the of society needs our help, support and understanding if new Minister, whom I welcome to his position. He gives Iran is to become the peaceful, democratic and free us considerable hope. society that we all hope it will be. Andrew Mackinlay: This week’s Minister. Appeasement has a long record. The position was summed up on 1 February 2006by the then Foreign Secretary’s. His statement, culled down, was that the Mr. Binley: I hope not. I have great faith in the People’s Mujahedeen Organisation of Iran was proscribed Minister’s ability and approach to the whole business at the behest of the mullahs as a sort of gift. We are and I look forward to some encouraging words from seeing in a number of ways how wrong that was. I him later, even though I cannot be here to listen to believe that the argument was based on Foreign Office them. information that was so dated as to be untrue. Finally, there is the Government’s attitude towards I shall take a liberty now by referring to a letter that I the PMOI. That organisation was proscribed by the will not ascribe, although I am willing to show it to the UK Government. We know from my comments about a Minister if he feels that that would be useful, for his former Foreign Secretary why it was proscribed. In information only. Its content is very important and I December 2006 the Court of First Instance ruled that shall quote two sentences from it. It is from a former the proscription was unlawful. The Minister will know Minister. Talking about Iran, he states: all that has happened since then, up to the events involving the Court of Appeal and the European Courts. “As time went by…I became less confident about the information He will know that a statement was made that, if not with which I was provided. Some was too old to have realistic implications for the present. Some was sourced in ways that made unique, was pretty unusual in British judicial history. I checks on reliability extremely difficult or impossible.” am referring to the ruling of the Proscribed Organisations Appeal Commission, which stated that He goes on to say in another paragraph: “having carefully considered all the material before us, we have “It is never easy for a former Government Minister—or indeed concluded that the decision” Governments—to acknowledge their analysis was wrong, however well motivated. But that is the case.” of the Secretary of State I am happy to show the Minister the letter privately, “…is properly characterised as perverse.” because I do not want him to think that I am trying to The Foreign Office got it wrong, and got it wrong be misleading or clever in any way. The information has continually in that respect, so thank God we had 12 June, a real bearing on what we are talking about today and because there is a vital need to rethink in all sorts of needs to be taken into account in a very serious way. ways. Later, I shall talk about the evidence that I have to The Select Committee report demands to know why support its import. the Government resisted the court decisions on the We need to recognise that the analysis was wrong. We PMOI. At the time of the Government’s initial response also need to recognise, as the Select Committee report to the report, legal matters were still proceeding. I am itself hints, the ineffective nature of sanctions. They sure that the Minister will now tell us why the Government 335WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 336WH

[Mr. Binley] should strengthen specific sanctions against vital industrial and commercial sectors, and against vital people in the continued to oppose court after court and decision after Iranian Government. decision on that issue. I believe that my enemy’s enemy Sixthly, we should recognise the value of opposition is my friend—the Chinese are very wise. I am not saying in exile. I have made that point before. Some may not that the PMOI has not in its history acted as a terrorist like the PMOI, but I am a supporter of the organisation, organisation within Iran. It has never done so against and I am pleased to say so. However, it has a massive the interests of the west, I might add, but in Iran that ability to dispense information in Iran to the very is true. people whom we are debating. It has the ability to gain I met Lord Malloch-Brown, a Foreign Office Minister, information from Iran that ought to be of great use to and the hon. Member for Harlow (Bill Rammell), who the Government and the Foreign Office. was also then a Foreign Office Minister, with a number We should work hard for the UN’s involvement in of other people. When I asked why they still considered future elections in Iran. We must put proper pressure on the PMOI to be a terrorist organisation, one of their the Iranians in every way possible and through every senior aides said that that was because it was still peaceful mechanism available to us. I do not advocate a involved in terrorist activities; it had never made a physical attack on the nation; that would be counter- statement to the effect that it was not. In fact, statements productive and dangerous for all. However, I do advocate have been made consistently and regularly since 2002 by that we take a consistently credible and strong approach the leader of that organisation—Mrs. Maryam Rajavi—and to a regime that believes that it is only strength that many others. They were public statements. It amazed counts, and which will believe that even more strongly me that the Foreign Office could make such a statement now that it is under such pressure. to me. That underlines again how out of touch the This debate is not only about Iran; it is not only Foreign Office has been. about Iran and Israel; and it is not only about Iran and We face a new situation. We need the Foreign Office the middle east. As was stated so startlingly by my right to think differently—to think anew about how we approach hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling, it the matter. We do not have many weapons in our is about our children, our grandchildren and our great- armoury. I recognise that the history of Iran tells us that grandchildren. It is about our country’s well-being. It is we do not have the ability to make a great impact on about us acting in a free and democratic world. There is that country. There is a whole cultural problem that a real threat to that objective, but I am not willing to put dates from 1911 onwards and perhaps even earlier. I up with it, for the sake of my children and grandchildren. know that we did not have a great cultural heritage That is why I speak so passionately. I look forward to when we opposed the Mosaddeq Government in the reading the Minister’s response. early 1950s and that many people feel that we supported the Shah beyond what was reasonable, decent and fair, so I understand that our influence is limited, but it is 4.4 pm still important, in terms of working in collaboration Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I am pleased to with other nations in the western world. follow my good friend the hon. Member for Northampton, I ask the Minister to consider six ways in which we South (Mr. Binley); I agree with every word that he might react to the new situation. First, as I have already uttered. I now turn to my left and to other colleagues argued, we need to change thinking in Foreign Office. and friends. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, We need to ensure that our intelligence is up to date and South (Mike Gapes) and the right hon. Member for that senior officials do not look as foolish as they did Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) made important when making their statement at a meeting with me. It is speeches, and I agree with some of what they said. I vital that we have proper information—the Minister shall nevertheless draw upon their speeches, because I knows that he depends upon it—and I am sure that it have reservations about some of their conclusions. will happen. I am happy to show him the letter that I The real problem is illustrated by the United Kingdom’s quoted, but I ask that it is kept private, as it was sent to attitude to Iran. It shows the dysfunctional nature of me under confidential cover. We need to change our the formulation of Government foreign policy in general. thinking. It is aggravated by the high turnover of Ministers in the Secondly, we need to recognise that internal regime Foreign Office. That is why, from a sedentary position change is now a possibility. It was not on the cards to a and with a slight smile, I referred to my good friend—I great extent when the report was published. It is certainly have enjoyed his company and his wise counsel on a on the cards now, and we need to take that into account. range of political issues—as “this week’s Minister”. I Thirdly, we should end the appeasement of the mullahs. said that because there is a high turnover of Ministers, We seemed to believe that they were kindly vicars, particularly at the junior level. attending tea parties and eating cucumber and cress We suffer from the obsession of Prime Minister Blair sandwiches and dealing out compassion to their and the current Prime Minister, who have played musical parishioners in a friendly and patrician way. That is not chairs with important ministerial portfolios. It does not the case. We are talking about a fanatical Islamic society matter how skilled, motivated or dedicated the incumbent run by fanatical Islamic mullahs. They recognise only Minister is—new Ministers often come from Departments strength. They have shown that they do not understand totally unrelated to foreign affairs—it inevitably means appeasement; they think that it is weakness. We must that the mantra is handed down by officials whose become much stronger and more united in that respect. judgment has been shown to be flawed time and again, Fourthly, we should demand an end to Ahmadinejad’s particularly in relation to the UK’s policy on Iran. To defiance of United Nations resolutions, as recommended some extent, that was demonstrated by what the hon. in the report. That goes without saying. Fifthly, we Member for Northampton, South called their obsession; 337WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 338WH they have aggravated the PMOI and done everything liberal or the great hope or leap forward for Iran. He is that they can to disadvantage brave people in exile who the same and equally to blame for the corrupt Iranian stand up for human rights in their native land and who regime. The sooner we make it clear that we do not see try to demonstrate to the rest of the world the pernicious him as the Archangel Gabriel, but as another one of the nature of the Iranian regime. regime’s thoroughgoing rotters, the better. There is the In my view, not only was the Foreign Office wrong in delusion that Mousavi is a goodie, when in fact he is a its repetition of that attitude by successive Ministers baddie. That is why I am disappointed with the BBC. Of there and at the Home Office; it was madness. I am course, in all the news agencies, and in particular the delighted that I and other Members of both Houses, BBC, there are some extremely brave men and women across the political spectrum, were able in the case of who collect and report the news. However, I draw a Lord Alton of Liverpool and others v. Secretary of distinction between them and the editorial nature of the State for the Home Department to demolish the BBC, which accepts and repeats the mantra that Mousavi Government’s argument. The Register of Members’ is a good person. I think that the spin doctor is the Interests mentions our involvement in that case. It was Foreign Office. It is not only wrong in spinning that; it is important because it humbled the Foreign Office and deceiving nobody but itself and those who listen to the the Home office, showing their deficiencies of judgment, BBC in the UK. Most people know that the truth lies and because it sent an unusual but significant signal to elsewhere. the regime in Tehran that the British judiciary is proudly I have told you, Mr. Benton, that I like the Minister separate from the Executive and the Government, whose and have known him for a long time, as you have. He approach to foreign policy is seriously flawed. has a very proud record of standing up for the state of I believe that the Foreign Office has too often been Israel, which I wholeheartedly endorse. He has been arrogant on Iran’s dialogue with other key partners. I very brave, but not uncritical, in supporting the state of remember that the Russian Federation tried to explore, Israel and its right to exist. I—and you, Mr. Benton, I in a positive way, the question of Iran and other countries suspect—also support that right. However, if the Minister having civil nuclear energy, the full fuel cycle being was not a Minister but a humble Member of Parliament, facilitated at four or five key locations around the globe, he would be persona non grata in Iran. Those in the which would allow many states, including Iran, to have regime would not let him across the threshold. In fact, it nuclear energy. However, it would not be done in a way remains to be seen whether they would let him go this that caused nuclear proliferation or facilitated the very evening to Tehran. I doubt whether they would—and preparation of nuclear weapons or warheads in a particular it would be personal, and because of his brave and country. To my knowledge, that was dismissed by the consistent attitude in defending the state of Israel. They Foreign Office. It does such things time and again as a are that rotten! I would be very interested to see, if he is result of its phobia and its attitude of dismissal to ever dispatched to Tehran, whether he is allowed in. anything suggested by the Russian Federation. Latterly, I was almost cheering the right hon. Member for that idea was picked up by the Foreign Office, but it was Tonbridge and Malling when he touched upon the too late—it missed the window of political opportunity. Government’s response. I, too, want to flag up the fact So my criticism of the Foreign Office is justified because that arms, training and explosives are coming from Iran it totally and consistently misread the situation. into Afghanistan and killing UK servicemen and women. I said that I departed from some of my colleagues’ No doubt the Minister’s brief will read, “This is a conclusions, especially in relation to the recent so-called sensitive area—skirt it if you can.” It will not say that elections and candidates. I am amazed that people fall exactly, but it will be words to that effect. It will tell him for the argument that the electorate exercised freedom to try to avoid responding to any points made about and that the elections were simply rigged by the man paragraph 20, page 7 of the Government’s response, who came out on top and his cohorts. Whoever won, which states that the elections would not have had legitimacy. I am rather “we also have evidence of IRGC–Qods Force involvement in old fashioned and think that all citizens should be able negative and destabilising activity in Afghanistan, including supplying to stand as candidates, but half the people of Iran—namely arms and funding to the Taliban.” women—could not, so there was blatant gender I have some issues with the Government, because this discrimination. I am amazed that politicians, the Foreign Parliament has never had a proper mandate to deploy Office, some good friends and colleagues, and the BBC our troops in Afghanistan, but we are there now and have given such legitimacy to this flawed election. They taking severe casualties. The Minister needs to tell us would not do so anywhere else. If these elections had precisely what is in his briefing pack in relation to that been held in Belarus or Russia, for instance, we would point. If I am wrong, and it says nothing, why? It is not be hammering home time and time again the fact that sufficient for him to write to Members; we need a half the population was disfranchised from seeking wholehearted statement on how we can reconcile our elected office. Furthermore, the turnout was abysmally recent courteousness to the regime with the fact that low, because hundreds of thousands of people did not our armed forces are suffering and losing lives owing to want to give any credence or legitimacy to this flawed the activities of the Iranian Government. How can the election. Government dismiss the charge, as they did yesterday in Colleagues have praised the candidate Mousavi. I do another debate, that we are appeasing this regime? not share this view at all. Although he seems to have Parliament is entitled to an explanation. been disadvantaged in this so-called election, he is The Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office wholly part of the main thrust of the regime. He signs differ greatly on this matter. That has no doubt been up fully in his allegiance to the regime’s constitution aggravated by the fact that the Prime Minister considers and the system under which the clerics decide who can the Secretary of State for Defence so unimportant that seek election and how. I do not consider him to be a he is number 23 in the Cabinet hierarchy. This is 339WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 340WH

[Andrew Mackinlay] have long since disarmed; none the less, there is a danger of their becoming the Cossacks of our generation. unacceptable. The former Secretary of State, the right The Iranian regime could exert its disproportionate hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Des Browne), influence on the fragile Iraqi Government to ensure that occasionally admitted that he blamed Iran for some of those people are expelled back to Iran, where they the deaths of British soldiers, yet that issue has never would face the same consequences as the Cossacks been clarified by the Foreign Office. So what does the faced in 1945 and 1946. The British Government have Foreign Office have to say about the fact that we are not shown the same resolution as the US military tolerating a regime that is facilitating the killing of our showed in recognising their moral, humanitarian and armed forces and service personnel? legal obligation to the people of Ashraf city. Will the The Government’s response to the point about sanctions Minister tell us what the latest position is on Ashraf, can only be described as pretty pathetic. They wrote: and recognise that we have obligations as signatories to “We judge that the sanctions introduced so far have sent a clear the Geneva convention? We want to know that we are political signal to the Iranian regime.” putting diplomatic and political pressure on the Iraqi Government to recognise their obligations under the A clear political signal—who is the Foreign Office fourth Geneva convention to safeguard the unarmed kidding, especially given that, elsewhere in the response, people of Ashraf city. it acknowledges that Iran is also facilitating the deaths of our armed forces personnel? In an Adjournment debate this year, I described to 4.25 pm the House of Commons how the UK had facilitated the Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): It is a transfer of funds from Iran, through London, to the pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew United States to deceive the US regulatory authorities, Mackinlay). I am speaking today both as an individual so that the Iranian regime, under cloak and dagger, and Chair of the British all-party group on Iran, which could purchase in north America technologies that it I have chaired for some three years. During that time, needed both to develop its nuclear side and—I believe— we have met with the Secretary of State, the Foreign nuclear weapons, and to get around the existing US and Secretary, Ministers of State, members of the US State EU sanctions regimes. The Government were seriously Department, Turkish and Syrian ambassadors, Members embarrassed. The particular perpetrator to which I am of the Iranian Government and Iranian clerics and referring is Lloyds TSB, but other London-based banking academics, as well as other people who represent the institutions were also involved. Under the financial interests of the area. In my short contribution, I should arrangement known as “stripping”, there was a deliberate like to introduce some context to the matter, which has intent in London to deceive the US authorities. When I been missing right from the beginning. mentioned this to my right hon. Friend the Financial The Iranian elections were, and are, a serious schism Secretary, he did not argue that I was wrong, but said in the current problems that we face with the regime. I instead that the ground rules in London and the European suppose that we could say that the lid has come off the Union had been altered. Again, that demonstrates the pressure cooker. There was some bad reporting at the charge that we have been doing too little, too late; that beginning. The BBC egos got off the plane in Iran and we have appeased; that we have been asleep on the job. nudged out of the way the journalists who had been None the less, we have the audacity to say that other working very hard in the region for a long time, often countries are not being resolute and strong in homing in when the rest of the world was not interested. When on those who export terrorism and other things that those egos stopped at the nearest polling station and involve loss of life around the world. saw women wearing lipstick, they assumed that there When the Minister responds, I hope that he specifically had already been an Iranian revolution. The expectations addresses the question of the export of weapons of that came from the first reporting of the Iranian elections terror to the Taliban and elsewhere. It is intolerable and were unnaturally high. That explains why so many unacceptable that this House should acquiesce in allowing people attached themselves to Mousavi and pronounced the Government to put in a document, which is a year him a great revolutionary reformist. They treated him old, an acknowledgement that there is a problem but as a “Hampstead Liberal” and no doubt felt that if he with no robust expression of outrage. I hope that the was elected, everything would change. Most of the Minister will be much more discerning and critical of reports at the beginning came from north Tehran, which the advice furnished to him by officials. I hope he will is the rich area where the Shahists and the elite of the stand up to Ministers more senior than him in the regime used to live. They are the people who have Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence and No. 10 suffered under the Ahmadinejad regime because of who, ridiculously, think they can buy off and placate economic incompetence. So, we need to put that in the thoroughly rotten regime that exists in Tehran. perspective. Presumably, in the Minister’s brief there are references Next, we should consider the three candidates. Anyone to Camp Ashraf, or Ashraf city. The residents are who knew Mousavi when he was a Prime Minister Iranian exiles who have been in Iraq for many years. would know that he is not campaigning for a completely After the collapse of Saddam’s regime, they were given European, liberal style democracy; he is a child of the protected person status under the Geneva convention. regime. This election was predominantly about the To the credit of the United States of America, they have competence of Ahmadinejad and not about whether he been safeguarded time and again, despite the Iranian was a moderniser, a conservative or a reformer. General regime putting increasing pressure on the fragile and Rezaie, who was a founding member of Hezbollah and wobbly Iraqi Government to expel them. In recent a senior general of the Revolutionary Guard, does weeks and months, the harassment of those people has not criticise the regimes of which he has been part increased. The United States acknowledges that they lightly or easily. 341WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 342WH

What I found in Iran last year was that across the Iranian Government, and the vast majority of clerics board, there was a coalition of people who felt that this and perhaps of the electorate. There are not many President was not only destroying the country economically modernisers. Karroubi, the third presidential candidate, through his incompetence but damning the country to could perhaps be a moderniser because he shook hands an isolation that would end up like that of North with a woman once or twice and has different views. Korea. That anger at his incompetence built up during We should also put in context the UK’s role in this the election. When he did not even competently fix his pantomime—that is what it is. Be under no illusion: own election, people felt that he had taken a step too Iran has a sort of twin track. People go through the far. It is possible that Ahmadinejad could have won the motions. As the Chairman of the Committee will know, election. However, he would not have won it on a 60:40 when one meets Iranians, their notebooks come out. basis, but he might have won it on a 51:49 basis. He Everyone copies everyone else’s notes to ensure that no might have had to go to a second round, but he could one can be accused of being a spy. That is the pantomime. not even fix his own election. Last year, there was a It does not detract from the seriousness of some of debate in the Majlis in which he tried to install his Iran’s measures, but Britain has a part in the pantomime. son-in-law or brother-in-law as Minister of the Interior, When a Danish newspaper published the cartoon insulting but the Members blocked it, knowing what he was the Prophet Mohammed, Iranians did not get on a bus doing. to the Danish embassy. The affair was seen as being the The three candidates were there to deliver change and fault of the British, so they went down to the British hopefully to solve one of the west’s real worries. As Iran embassy and stood outside, where they were given rocks is a non-party political state, it is very hard to do to throw, and it was, “Let’s pick on little Satan.” We are anything but deal with personalities, and personalities that character in Iranian politics. We have something of come and go in Iran. In the series “Iran and the West”, a history and it is good to carry on exploiting that the former Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member perception. for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) dealt with the personalities in both the Iranian and American regimes. He had to The BBC situation is quite interesting. The BBC hold the circle with a Bush Administration, which had Persian service sent the code words to trigger the 1953 to deal with Mr. Bolton on one day and General Powell coup to get rid of Mosaddeq, so it is perfectly on the next. There were personalities across the foreign understandable that those nasty parts of the regime policy divide, and it was very hard to get a settled who want to portray Britain as being part of the current foreign policy—it must have felt a bit like catching soap. situation use BBC Persia and say, “Yousee? They’re at it again.” We are the pantomime villain. I would like to pay tribute to the European powers. The Foreign Office has been given a tough time throughout British embassy workers have been intimidated, bullied the debate, but it had to walk the line when no one knew and arrested for years. Last year, the British Council whether the Americans were going to take the neo-con was closed down and the British embassy was invaded— view of Mr. Bolton, or what view the Iranian regime, 150 people jumped over the fence and ran amok in the which swapped personalities in the same way, would gardens. We did not hear about the invasion from the take. Foreign Office, mainly because it was trying its best to separate the hysteria and the pantomime from the reality. Interestingly, when we nearly got to a resolution on We should not forget that the UK has the role of the nuclear issue, it fell apart on both sides of the table. pantomime villain. Sometimes we have to accept it, but The deputy Secretary of State of the United States left, sometimes we must draw a line. and in came Mr. Bolton with his neo-con view of the world; off went Mr. Larijani and into the Iranian We are not alone in the role. The second biggest regime came someone of whom we had never heard. enemy in Iran is not big Satan; historically, it is Russia.

Mike Gapes: We met that somebody of whom the Ms Gisela Stuart: Does the hon. Gentleman agree hon. Gentleman had never heard: his name is Jalili, and that because of the pantomime he described, people we had a very interesting, intense and frank discussion make the great mistake of thinking that it is an irrational with him. regime? We may not always understand it, but its actions are rational. Mr. Wallace: I was due to go to Iran last week before I was banned as part of the British conspiracy to overthrow the Government. I was due to meet the Mr. Wallace: I agree, and that is one of the saddest person of whom I had never heard, and it looks like things about this recent incident. People in the west that I will never get to hear of him. underestimate Iran and vice versa. The Foreign Office has done a good job of dealing We need to understand the Iranian people. There is with the problem I described, which has been exceptionally great anger on the streets of Iran. When we were there, difficult, but we should also define what the terms people perfectly openly criticised the regime. Just as the moderniser, reformist and conservative mean in Iran. A Chairman of the Committee said, people come up and conservative in Iran, by my reading, says that God will say what they think. They say, “The man’s a muppet provide everything—God will provide democracy, and and the regime shouldn’t be allowed to do this or that.” economic and social success. No one needs to do anything, The Supreme Leader’s brother criticised him last year because God will provide. The reformists that we talk and got beaten up, so people do break ranks, even if about are not, I am sorry to say, Hampstead liberals. they do not necessarily do so in an organised manner. The reformists are people who say, “Let’s follow China. Because the political regime does not allow party politics, Let’s have an authoritarian state that will liberalise there is very little collective protection for people who economically.” That is the vast majority of people in the want to espouse such views. 343WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 344WH

[Mr. Wallace] resist democracy, he left out all the Arab states surrounding Iran. When are the elections, and where are the democratic Iranian people are very suspicious of foreign intervention, accountability and human rights, in Jordan, Saudi Arabia and we have to be cautious in our solutions. Russia and and Egypt? Those countries are not only our foreign Britain have form—the US’s form is rather nouveau policy allies; we are selling arms to them. riches. We have to be cautious. Foreign intervention Hypocrisy is a matter of fact in the middle east. I am such as a big stamp of approval for Mr. Mousavi would happy to say, “Yes, I am a hypocrite,” because I am a do him and hope of reform no good whatever. pragmatist, but let us not say, “Iran is absolutely evil We must not underestimate the nationalistic nature because it doesn’t respect human rights in the same of Iranian people. Iran is not like Iraq. It is not made up way.” It does not, and that is wrong—it needs to correct of Shi’a, Sunni and Kurd areas on a rather artificial itself and be corrected by others—but neither do some map that was pretty much drawn up by the British not of our allies, and we must face up to that and decide so long ago; it is a nation state that feels like a nation what our priorities are. state, and it is predominantly dominated by Shi’ism. We need to contextualise the religious struggle in Whether Iranians are pro-Shah or conservative, we Iran. It is not new. It must be understood that Shi’ism should not underestimate their strength of feeling for plays a major role in the development and direction of their country. Iran as a theocracy, and always has. Within Shi’ism is a When we were in Iran last summer, we met some debate that goes back about 200 years, if not longer, American Iranians who go over every summer to help focusing on the phrase “velayat-e faqih”. I cannot the Iranian health service. They are Shahists and cannot pronounce it particularly well; I will give Hansard the stand the regime, but they do what they do because they quote. It means, effectively, the balance between secular feel that they will be contributing to their country. and religious. It is either the limited or absolute guardianship When considering the measures to take to deal with of the Islamic jurist in Shi’ism, which basically says, Iran and any extreme action, we should remember not “While you wait for the 12th imam to appear, who runs to underestimate the national pride of Iranian people. the country?” I disagree with the hon. Member for Thurrock and Some clerics believe that they run it in its entirety my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, South with the authority of the imam. Other clerics—not all (Mr. Binley) about the Mujahidin-e-Khalq or PMOI. the clerics are vicars, as my hon. Friend the Member for None of the millions who protested in the streets was Northampton, South said—are reasoned, reforming protesting for the restoration of the MEK, and no one people. Shi’ism is about reform. It is not like Wahabism, wanted the PMOI to be allowed a role in Iranian which is about going backwards; it is a long-held debate. politics. The Supreme Leader—the second President—was Karroubi is an ayatollah. He is not agreed with, but he blown in half by the PMOI. It is a Marxist organisation. is a senior, learned cleric. One does not become a cleric It has not been active because its people have been in Iran by taking some correspondence course in Alabama sitting in a camp after fighting for Saddam Hussein in and calling oneself right reverend. We should understand Iraq. I do not want Her Majesty’s Government to do that ideological debate. business with such an organisation. As in Iraq, we must For me, the saddest day of the recent incident was the ask ourselves whether our enemy’s enemy is our friend. Friday three weeks ago when, during prayers, the Supreme Have we forgotten the lessons of history? We should be Leader got off his independence view and pronounced very careful with whom we do business. that his views were effectively closer to those of reigning Let us remember that the US re-proscribed the PMOI President Ahmadinejad than to others’. The “others” in February. We only have to read the evidence, which is were really Rafsanjani. He was sending a coded message submitted and published online, to realise that the US that he wanted to use his role to guide and run the has not moved much on the PMOI. country according to a religious view. The people who disagree with that say, “No one can Andrew Mackinlay: To make it clear, all I want is the replicate the imams. Humans do what humans do, and PMOI to be able to put up candidates in elections. That clerics guide religion, but we’re not going to interfere.” is what is being denied to it. As with many organisations The strong side of Shi’a politics is driven by that. One historically and in Europe and elsewhere, it is an umbrella modern-day champion of it, ironically, was Ayatollah organisation. The hon. Gentleman was wrong that the Khomeini, who wrote all about it in opposition. That is organisation is Marxist, but I do not want to labour the how he built a coalition for the revolution with Marxists, point. The PMOI contains clerics and secularists, and socialists and everybody else. Unfortunately, when he people of the left and of the right. All it wants is the got to power—power corrupts, and absolute power right to seek election in a free, democratic Iran. corrupts absolutely—he went from limited to absolute. That is the challenge, and we must recognise it. The Mr. Wallace: As I understand it, there is a process problem is the ticking time bomb of the nuclear clock. that makes it open to former terrorists to join democratic Without the nuclear worry, we could let things play processes, just like the process that we have been through their course. We could take steps to ensure that with the IRA and Sinn Fein. However, I do not believe terrorism was not exported and so on. Unfortunately, that the PMOI is the driver for reforming Iran. It is not the nuclear issue creates urgency. We are in a serious credible in that way. People have long memories in Iran, and difficult place. and I do not believe that the PMOI is the tool or the The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston vehicle for reform. If the hon. Gentleman’s argument is (Ms Stuart) said that the regime was a rational and that we should allow and encourage Iran to move to a calculating one. I believed that right up until the elections. freer, more democratic state, I agree with him. However, We have heard a lot of criticism, but the question is when he listed people who abuse human rights and what to do. A lot of people in this debate have said, 345WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 346WH

“The Foreign Office is appalling,” or “Iran is appalling.” We have heard sanctions mentioned as the option. I So what? What are we going to do about it? That is the have a deep suspicion of sanctions, not because I do not question. The worry today, which basically explains the think that they work—they do, in the right places—but silence of the UK and the US, is assessment. Is the because of Iran’s trading partners, such as Japan, China regime still ruling by consent, and is it capable of and Russia. The challenge that Britain, America and delivering anything in a negotiation anyway? Is the France face is that no one else is playing ball. The country split down the middle? Is the religious establishment missiles being fired and tested from Iran are potent not split, and even some of the revolutionary guards? because they go up and down—North Korea does the My understanding is that the Ministries in the Whitehall up-and-down bit—but because of where they land. The of Tehran are split. The Ministry of the Interior is guidance systems in the missiles are sold to the Iranians intimidating people; the Ministry of Foreign Affairs by the Chinese. The systems in the land missiles that either has been left out in the cold or is not as engaged. could close down the straits of Hormuz and the missiles If they are all over the place, that is the worry. Who are fired from Lebanon by Hezbollah that hit an Israeli we going to sit around a table with, and if we do, can frigate were Chinese. The Chinese have sold $7 billion they deliver anyway? That is my fear about developing worth of arms to Iran since 2000. People are not foreign policy for the next few months or years. It playing ball. explains why both America and Britain have done their Russia just re-fitted two of Iran’s submarines. Actually, best to stay out of it: they need to assess it and work they were not very good, so the Iranians sent them back it out. to be done again. The Russians are trading with Iran, as I have some fears. I do not understand why both the are the Germans and Italians. A few months ago, the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report and the Foreign Italian Foreign Minister encouraged Italians to do more Office’s response contain no indication that what happened business with Iran. What the Iranians see in that is a at the election was going to happen. Fixing an election split, weak European and western coalition that does is a pretty tough job. I did not see any indication. I not work. If sanctions do not work and the Supreme never got any briefings saying, “We think this election Leader believes that they are a good thing for maintaining will be rigged.” No one saw it coming. Are we not the purity of the country—he has said so in many putting enough resource into our intelligence community, speeches—how much effect will they have on the regime? or is it looking elsewhere? We need forewarning of such If we could not prevent North Korea, Pakistan and issues. We must ask ourselves what works. other countries from developing the bomb, one must ask how effective we are and whether we are putting our Andrew Mackinlay: Due to the unfortunate way that effort in the right place. Should we not be rattling the Parliament works, the reports are more than a year old. stick at the other partners in the world to ensure that we Also, the hon. Gentleman made the valid point that we have proper sanctions? Of course we are angry with the were not given any warning about the elections. That is Iranian regime, but our resources should be spent on part of my point. The Foreign Office is flawed. It is the persuading China, Russia and the European Union to same Foreign Office that misread Mugabe’s great success get on with it and stop sitting on the fence. The question in 1979-80 and thought that the Greeks would approve of sanctions constantly undermines us. the Annan plan because they were told by the Brits to Interestingly, Oman, one of Britain’s partners in the do so. Now the Foreign Office has got it wrong by gulf, recently signed a security pact with Iran. On one misreading the so-called Iranian election. The Foreign hand, Britain is about to sell two new frigates to Oman, Office’s judgment is flawed. but on the other, Oman has just signed a security pact with Iran. Where are we going? We need to ensure that Mr. Wallace: The hon. Gentleman is right to point we have a united voice and put a lot of effort into out that the British foreign policy track record is riven getting there. I do not believe in regime change through with failures, but it is also riven with successes. We do the MEK or terrorist organisations. That would take us not always hear that. Also, we have to have a Foreign to the wrong place, as the example of Iraq shows. Office. There is no other solution. There is no such Relying on intelligence is often unreliable. thing as do-it-yourself foreign policy. There are challenges for us. We must send a message to the Iranians not to underestimate us. Just because Ms Stuart: On the very day of the elections, a respected they can capture a few sailors in a boat and break our commentator said on the BBC, “The real difference sanctions, they should not underestimate the sleeping between the Iranian elections and the Russian elections lion that is Britain. We should be funding our armed is that you can’t tell in advance who’s going to win the forces—our stick. We have a carrot and a stick. We have Iranian elections.” If the Foreign Office got it wrong, so offered a lot of carrot, but our stick looks weak and did everybody else. It was in good company. underfunded. Our armed forces are being cut. We cannot tell Iran that we have a stick with any credibility when Mr. Wallace: I understand that, but the simple logistics we do not have enough aeroplanes. We need to be of moving around ballot boxes and printing millions of strong in saying that we have a stick, but offer carrots to ballot papers must have left some trace, especially in demonstrate that we understand how Iran works and Tabriz, which is not friendly to Ahmadinejad. Maybe not just how we want it to work. they all just got the ballot papers and went into a new room at counting central. I do not know. But it would 4.51 pm have been useful if we had had some idea what was going to happen. Maybe the Foreign Office knew but Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): It is a pleasure kept it secret; maybe it was not for us to know until after to follow the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre the event. (Mr. Wallace), who has great expertise on this issue. I 347WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 348WH

[Jo Swinson] I was taken by the analysis of the election by the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre. There has been a am sure that all hon. Members enjoyed his remarks. I certain reaction in Britain to seeing protestors and congratulate the Select Committee Chairman on his people rallying around the reform cause. Because of the introduction to the debate and on the work of his news story about the protests, there has not been much Committee in producing this well-researched and thorough analysis of the policies of the presidential candidates. It report. It has led to an important and lively debate this is right that what we would perceive as reform is not afternoon. Unfortunately, it is almost 18 months since what was on offer from Mousavi. There was not a great the report’s publication. Although it might have been choice for reform. All the candidates had to be approved helpful to debate it earlier, sadly, many of the conclusions in advance by the existing structures in Iran. Whatever still apply. the outcome of the election, the nuclear issue would not Paragraph 109 illustrates the thrust of the report in have gone away because there was consensus on it the recommendation that there be a wholesale recasting among the candidates. Although we should watch the of Iran’s developments with the election, the bigger issues were “relationship with the international community, particularly with always going to remain. The nuclear issue is one of the the United States and European Union.” greatest foreign policy challenges faced by the world. We all felt a sense of elation when President Obama was I agree with the analysis of the hon. Member for elected. In his foreign policy moves thus far, he seems be Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) that the regime pursuing a more positive path on the world stage and acts in a fairly rational way. If one puts oneself in the extending an open hand. The international community shoes of the Iranians, it is clear that there are many is therefore effectively following the Select Committee’s reasons why they should pursue a nuclear weapons recommendation, but the response has not been capability. In the same region, Israel has nuclear arms encouraging, to say the least. However, the international and there is no love lost between the two states. There is community is taking the correct approach and it must also an issue of status and the desire to be seen as a be given a chance to work. President Obama’s and Joe world player. The threat has diminished with the Obama Biden’s recent restatement of that intention is welcome. regime, but when Bush was in power there was a real prospect of an American invasion, especially considering The most important recent event in Iran is the election. what happened in Iraq. We need to recognise and I agree with the Government’s position that the will of understand that reality if we are to reduce the danger. the Iranian people should be upheld, as should be the case in any democratic election. I was just as critical of The Select Committee’s subsequent report on non- President Bush’s first election victory, because I believed proliferation is welcome. Worryingly, it states that there that the will of the American people had been usurped. has been rapid progress in Iran towards further enrichment There are serious questions over the Iranian election. and the expansion of centrifuges. We do not know what The hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) stage the process is at, or how many months or years rightly raised the problem that half of the population away the Iranians are from acquiring a nuclear capability. was ineligible to stand for the presidency. Such There is a danger that if that happened, it would have a discrimination against women is not welcome in any domino effect in a region where there are already heightened country. Regardless of what we in the UK say about the tensions. The next steps after Iran obtains a nuclear election, many Iranians want answers. They are the weapon do not bear thinking about. The potential people who matter the most, because they had the right disasters are immense. Other middle eastern states might to cast the votes and should be able to ensure that they want to acquire nuclear weapons. Given that we want to were counted correctly. stop nuclear proliferation and reduce nuclear capabilities across the globe, Iran’s nuclear programme is very worrying. We have all seen the protests on television and on We have not done ourselves any favours by committing YouTube. We have followed them online on various to replacing Trident when there was no need to do so, internet sites. Regardless of who won the election and given the lifespan of the current submarines. Doing that what we think about it, the horrendous violence we have just before going to the 2010 non-proliferation conference seen on our screens is cause for great concern. In a seems bizarre. Surely, we want to go to that conference sense, it is wonderful that citizens have been empowered being able to negotiate and say that our nuclear weapons to report and communicate the news themselves through are on the table. a variety of mobile technologies. At the same time, that has put many disturbing images into the public domain. In general, it is positive to see people anywhere in the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth world empowered by such new technology. Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I am sure that the hon. Lady It is too early to say where we are in the post-election would not want to give the impression internationally situation. It has been reported that there might be more that there is an equivalence between British foreign protests today because it is the 10th anniversary of the policy in any respect and the actions of the Iranian crackdown on the student protests. Professor Ali Ansari, Government. That would be extremely damaging and I who gave evidence to the Select Committee, was quoted am sure she is not trying to do that, but it is important in The Times this week saying that the situation is to make that clear in this debate. nowhere near resolved. I suspect that he, as an esteemed expert on Iran, is right. It is difficult to predict what will Jo Swinson: I do not think for a second that I was happen, and we will have to watch as events unfold. The making that link. I am saying that our position in one exception is that when British nationals are held in non-proliferation talks around the world will surely be Iran, we must make strong representations for them to stronger if we are prepared to talk about reducing our be released. That is unacceptable and the Government nuclear weapons arsenal. That would give us much are right to pursue such action with all possible haste. more power in negotiations. Surely, if it looks as though 349WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 350WH the main nuclear players are reducing their arsenals, Christians and Jews. We also heard about the persecution that will reduce the pressure on countries such as Iran of and discrimination against women for various perfectly and others that are thinking of going nuclear to try to reasonable behaviours, about the persecution of anyone join the club, as it were. We have seen the success of who disagrees with the prevailing political views, and such a strategy with President Obama’s decision to put about the horrendous executions of minors by the state. American nuclear weapons on the table in discussions Obviously, there is a range of human rights problems with Russia. In a sense, the best possible and only in Iran. positive way of using nuclear weapons is to use them to We did not have much time yesterday to go into detail negotiate away other nuclear weapons. about gay and lesbian Iranians being deported from the The hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre asked UK to Iran, and I would be interested to hear the what we should do, and that question was well posed. Minister’s views on that. In June 2008, the then Home We can discuss the problems and say what the difficulties Secretary said that there was no “real risk”to homosexuals are, but what are the real options? The Committee has who were deported to Iran if they behaved “discreetly”. said of the military option: The suggestion that it is fine to deport someone to a “We remain of the view that such a military strike would be place where they would have to hide such a key aspect unlikely to succeed and could provoke an extremely violent of themselves to avoid being tortured does not fit with backlash across the region.” my judgment of what is appropriate. The Home Office I strongly agree, because I think that that would be a guidance says that dangerous road to go down. I am pleased that the “it is not accepted that there is systematic repression of gay men Foreign Secretary has said that he is 100 per cent. and lesbians” behind the diplomatic track, although I note that the in Iran, but, since 1979 in Iran, there have been 4,000 Government have not entirely ruled out the possibility state executions of people for being gay. If that is not of supporting a future US military strike. That would systematic repression, I do not know what is. be dangerous territory and we should not go down that I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments route: it would strengthen the position of the extremists on these difficult and sensitive issues. Like everyone and is not the right way forward. else, I await the outcome of the current unrest in Iran So, we then look at the sanctions regime, which, as and wait to see what will happen there, but I should like has been discussed, is not working well. A united approach to note the remarks made by hon. Members and by the from the E3 plus 3 is vital to that regime, but the academic Karim Sadjadpour in evidence to the Select approach is not as united as we might want, because of Committee. Mr. Sadjadpour said that the loopholes that exist. We must continue and increase “despite the fact that a seeming majority of Iranians favor a more our efforts to encourage countries such as Russia and tolerant, democratic system, there is little evidence to suggest that China to recognise the threat and to play ball—to in the event of a sudden uprising it would be Iranian democrats borrow a phrase. As I have said, Obama’s overtures to who come to power.” Russia are good news, such as his offer to scrap the We should all bear that in mind when we watch what is “Son of Star Wars” project if the Russians help him in happening on our television screens. The future is clearly halting Iran’s proliferation. Russia is a key player, and it uncertain, with extreme dangers in relation to nuclear would be great if we could get its help in getting Iran to proliferation and the escalation of regional tensions, negotiate, and in making progress. We have to accept but I maintain, none the less, that the correct way that the UK’s influence in this matter is not at its peak, forward must still be diplomacy and extending that given the current diplomatic situation, and that it might open hand. I hope that that approach can be successful. best be used in looking at what influence other countries can bring to bear. 5.7 pm On Iraq and Afghanistan, the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) talked about Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): First, I the Government’s analysis of the training and support congratulate the Select Committee on its report and being given to insurgents and the Taliban in Afghanistan couple with that my expression of hope that we can by Iran in particular. That issue is cause for great somehow reform parliamentary procedures so that Select concern. I note from the reports that there has been Committee reports as important as this one can be correspondence, in addition to what the Government debated in a more timely fashion. I encourage the hon. have been able to discuss publicly, which could not be Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes) and his colleagues published in the public domain for understandable security to continue their inquiries into the role of Iran in reasons. I would be interested to hear whether the international affairs, because its position in its region Committee is satisfied with the Government’s responses and in the debate on nuclear proliferation will continue on that aspect. It is rather difficult for those of us who to be a pressing foreign policy priority for the present have not seen that correspondence to judge. In general and future British Governments. terms, I will say that there is a delicate balance to be Like the hon. Member for Ilford, South, I have found struck, and that security concerns have to come first, that a visit to Iran, with experiences such as taking tea but that it would be helpful if the Government tried as under the bridges in Isfahan, going through the bazaars much as they could to put information in the public in Tehran, or discovering the phenomenon of blogging domain where possible. ayatollahs, quickly dispels the easy caricatures that are I will touch on human rights only briefly because we too often portrayed. Iran is a very complex country had an excellent debate on that issue yesterday in this with an intriguing blend of modern and ancient elements. Chamber. The report concludes that Iran’s human rights It has a system of government that even the most record is shocking, as we heard in detail yesterday in experienced academic and diplomatic experts find hard relation to religion and the treatment of the Baha’i, to penetrate and understand fully. 351WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 352WH

[Mr. David Lidington] simply wrong to view Mr. Mousavi as being in some way a western democrat who is committed to western Like others, I shall not dwell at length on human liberal ideas. He is, indeed, a child of the revolution and rights in Iran, or on the debacle of the recent presidential his time in office as Prime Minister did not show the election results, except to say to the Minister that as record of a man who was committed to liberal reforms Iran is a party to the international covenant on civil and in the way that they would be understood in Britain or political rights, and given that it, as a member of the elsewhere in the west. A Mousavi presidency would be United Nations, will be subject to periodic reviews by committed to Iran’s nuclear programme and to the the United Nations Human Rights Council, I hope that assertion of Iranian national interest. Ministers will continue to press, through the appropriate My hon. Friend was also right to warn us that international forums, for Iran to be held to the treaties demographic change, which is having an increasing that it has signed and ratified. effect upon society in Iran, does not necessarily mean a I was very disappointed when, soon after the presidential more liberal approach, particularly to foreign policy. I election result was declared, I read that the UN Human believe that young people in Iran will very much want to Rights Council had decided not to hold a special session have a greater say in how their country is run, but the to inquire into the election. That will do damage to the Chinese precedent suggests that aspirations on the part reputation of the council as a new United Nations of a young generation for better standards of material institution and I hope that the United Kingdom will try well-being can be coupled with a fervent patriotism that to gather support among other countries to reopen that shades at times into quite aggressive nationalism. We particular issue at the UN. have seen that in relation to some of the young Han My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Chinese reactions to the disturbances in Tibet last year. Malling (Sir John Stanley) spoke with great passion Our interest is not in Iran changing its regime—whatever about the position of the British embassy staff in Tehran. we might think of it—but in trying to secure changes to Although I share the relief of all hon. Members that all Iran’s behaviour, both domestically in terms of respect but one staff member has been released, it is still utterly for human rights and, critically for this debate, in how unacceptable that any members of our diplomatic staff Iran conducts its foreign policy within its region and in Tehran should remain under threat of prosecution. I more generally. Iran’s nuclear programme must be at am less sanguine than some about the position of our the centre of our concerns. Before this debate, I read fellow member states of the European Union in relation through the most recent IAEA report, which was published to that and I hope the Minister will be able to provide on 5 June and was based on an inspection carried out some reassurance on that point. on 19 May this year. The report demonstrated that Iran When the presidency of the EU shifted from the still refuses to co-operate fully with what the international Czech Republic to Sweden, there was a distinct cooling inspectors require. In a letter of 3 May this year, Iran of ardour about putting in place firm diplomatic responses informed the agency that it would not permit “design to the threat being made against our staff. Within information verifications” at the Iran nuclear research 24 hours, once the Iranians had said that they were reactor. Iran refused to grant the IAEA access to going to bring charges against the staff member who reactor 40 for the Iranian Government’s own reasons . was still being kept in detention, the new presidency did The IAEA concluded that that start to take a tougher line—and I have a high regard “could adversely impact the Agency’s ability to carry out effective for the experience and the diplomatic skill of Carl safeguards at that facility”. Bildt—but I very much hope that the British Government will not let up the pressure at all upon our European In addition, Iran made it difficult for the agency to Union colleagues. report further on the construction of the reactor, despite that having been requested by the United Nations Security If the EU response to the detention of our staff is Council. I could go on to provide a significantly longer seen to be limp and if countries are looking for ways to list of details from that report. avoid measures—for example, if we believe that the withdrawal of all EU ambassadors is necessary as a As with other countries who are signatories to the demonstration of how strongly we take the matter—that non-proliferation treaty, the NPT gives Iran the right to will not only make life more difficult for British embassy develop a civil nuclear programme. However, I want to staff now and in the future, but the hardliners in Tehran be confident in a way that I am not at the moment that will draw their own conclusions and life will become the international community can trust Iran to develop a more risky for the representatives of other EU nations. civil nuclear energy programme and to observe all the That matter is important. I hope that the Minister will requirements of the NPT. Iran’s renunciation of the also take seriously the points that my right hon. Friend additional protocol and its refusal to co-operate with made about looking at the Geneva conventions and the international inspectors is set against the background seeing whether we should be able to protect our locally of a nuclear programme that was begun and developed engaged staff who are at risk by moving them into the covertly, which is itself a breach of treaty requirements, category that he advocated, so that greater protection is and that will inevitably perpetuate mistrust. provided under those conventions. If the Iranian programme goes ahead, hon. Members The truth is that whatever the outcome of the present have talked about there being a threat of nuclear crisis, it will be in the interests of the United Kingdom proliferation in the middle east and about Israel perceiving that we continue to engage with Iran. Whatever the that there is an existential threat to its very survival. outcome of the crisis in Tehran, we in Britain will have However, it is not only Iran’s nuclear programme that to engage with the reality of Iranian national interests should concern us. Today, we have debated Iran’s role in and Iran’s desire to assert itself as an important power Afghanistan—my right hon. Friend the Member for within its region. My hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling particularly talked about that. Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Wallace) reminded us that it is In many ways, it would seem odd for the Iranian 353WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 354WH

Government to be seeking to help the Taliban. The we are confronted with an Iran that has nuclear weapons, Iranians originally gave some assistance to the coalition in the way that North Korea and Pakistan now have when action to overthrow the Taliban regime in Kabul nuclear weapons? It is not too early for policy makers in was first taken in 2001. The Taliban are largely Sunni. Britain, elsewhere in Europe and in America to be Iran has had to face major problems from the narcotics drawing up contingency plans and thinking through trade and from the influx of refugees as a consequence policy options in such circumstances. of disorder and violence in Afghanistan. For the time being, the main policy option, however I would be interested to hear the Minister’s assessment imperfect, seems to be economic sanctions. I find it of the motives for Iran’s support of the Taliban. Do the frustrating that the Prime Minister spoke well over a British Government believe that Iran is still actively year ago in a Mansion house speech about new sanctions engaged in supplying munitions and other forms of being imposed at European level on oil and gas investment help to the Taliban to fight coalition forces, including and on export credit guarantees, but that they have still our own? What is Iran’s current relationship with the not been agreed by the EU. In fact, the converse is Taliban? true: some two thirds of Iran’s foreign trade is with Iran has also shown that it is capable of playing a EU countries. malign role in other parts of the region such as Iraq, There are more measures that we could take on Lebanon and the Gulf. Only a few months ago, there finance, as the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew was an overt reference by a senior Iranian leader to Mackinlay) suggested, and I would hope that in the Bahrain’s being legitimately a province of Iran rather wake of what happened in the presidential elections, we than an independent state. That statement understandably would also look at trade with Iran in information caused huge concern among all the Arab members of technology. I was disturbed to read reports that the the Gulf Co-operation Council. software that was used to filter and monitor internet It seems that the objectives of British policy must be and mobile traffic within Iran after the elections, and to to try to secure a satisfactory outcome to the crisis over make life difficult for the demonstrators and the opposition, Iran’s nuclear programme but also to try to bring about, was supplied by Siemens. I do not know whether that is through diplomatic means, a system of regional security true, but it was reported in the US by quite serious and co-operation in which Iran is willing to play a sources. I hope that the EU will at least review its policy constructive rather than a malign role, but a system in and see whether it needs to tighten up controls on that which Iran’s genuine national interests are also recognised. type of trade. The problem that we have is one that my hon. Friend Looking further ahead, if President Obama’s outstretched the Member for Lancaster and Wyre referred to, which hand does not meet with the kind of response that we is the limited number of policy options that, in reality, would hope for, if Iran continues to press forward with are available to the United Kingdom. Despite what has its nuclear programme, we will have to look at sanctions happened in the past few weeks, I still believe that that go even further and which would have the effect of President Obama’s approach is the right one. There is isolating Iran as completely as possible from the normal an enormous prize to be won through engagement—that contacts of the global economy. of deflecting Iran from a nuclear weapons programme—and My final point is that if we are starting to think about it carries with it a prize for the Iranian people of how the international community would deal with an engagement with the outside world and modernisation Iran that had obtained control of the nuclear fuel cycle of their economy, and even a prize for the regime in the or worse, we would need to be looking also at very form of the end of regime change as a suspected objective public security guarantees. They would be primarily of United States policy. from the US rather than European powers, but clear, I would be interested to hear whether the Minister unmistakable security guarantees, not just to Israel but believes, as some have argued, that the attacks on Britain— to several Arab countries, would be essential to try to the use of slogans in recent weeks denouncing the little prevent nuclear proliferation in this fragile and tense Satan rather than the great Satan—are actually a peculiar region of the world, which I believe is the nightmare coded way of Iran’s signalling to Washington that it still that we all wish to avoid. wishes to explore the possibilities of engagement. Or have the British Government made a more pessimistic assessment of what is happening? 5.28 pm On the nuclear issue, it seems that we need to persuade The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Iran, if we can, to accept suspension of its enrichment Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I congratulate the Foreign programme, although I think that that will be Affairs Committee on securing this debate and my hon. extraordinarily hard if not impossible to achieve, given Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes) on the public statements made by so many Iranian leaders. his able, eloquent presentation of the content of the If that fails, we may have to deal at some time in the report. It is regrettable that it was published so long next few years with the reality of an Islamic republic ago. Indeed, even the Foreign Office response is considerably that has achieved control of the nuclear fuel cycle but in the past. which has perhaps stopped short of a weapons programme. The debate has shown the House at its best. The If that is the world in which we find ourselves, would we quality of the contributions of all right hon. and hon. be able to interpose between that stage and breakout to Members has illustrated not only the importance of this weaponisation some system of checks and warnings issue to British strategic interests, but the fact that it is that would provide at least a measure of regional security? incredibly difficult to analyse. The hon. Member for Finally—this is the worst-case option—are the Foreign Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Wallace) said, in a thoughtful Office and other parts of the Government thinking speech, that the challenge for us is what we do—not about what to do if we wake up one day and find that how we pontificate or analyse, but what we actually do 355WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 356WH

[Mr. Ivan Lewis] from the international community. Those demands are undermined in any situation where a Government fail in the interests of this country, in the interests of stability to respect the rights of their own people and fail to in the middle east, and in the interests of the international address their legitimate concerns. community. That, frankly, is the responsibility that falls Since the election, we have seen even further erosion to people who hold office, and it is one that we must and deterioration in the outlook for human rights in take very seriously indeed in the current climate. Iran, but, as the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre As has been said, we are all trying to weigh up the said, recent events must be set within a broader context. implications of recent events in Iran, not only for Iran I hope that right hon. and hon. Members will forgive but for the wider international community. There is me for briefly reiterating some of the specific points on undoubtedly a widespread feeling that something has human rights in Iran that were made in yesterday’s changed following the election, with the subsequent debate. Iran’s human rights record is well documented action of the people and, unfortunately, the violent and is, to be frank, appalling. It has the highest execution clampdown on dissent that we saw on the streets of rate per capita of any country worldwide and juvenile Tehran. If we are honest, it is far too early to say with executions continue apace. Despite Iran’s history of any precision what the consequences will be and whether tolerance and the rich, diverse mix of religion and there will be significant changes in the direction or the ethnic groups that make up Iranian society, religious posture of the Iranian Republic. However, this is an and ethnic minorities are subject to persecution, appropriate moment to reflect on what has happened intimidation, arbitrary detention and denial of education. and remind ourselves of the serious issues that we are Even before the recent unrest began, the Iranian faced with. authorities had arrested large numbers of teachers, The eyes of the world have been on Iran in recent women’s rights activists, students, trade unionists and times. In the run-up to the elections, we were all struck ethnic minorities on the dubious, spurious charges of by the passionate, vigorous debate that took place in issuing “propaganda against the Islamic Republic”, “acting that country. The future of the Republic was debated against national security” and “organising illegal live on television, in the streets and across the internet. gatherings.”As I said earlier, that clampdown has increased The choice may not have been as open as it should have markedly in recent weeks. More than 1,000 demonstrators been—my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew and several political and opposition leaders have been Mackinlay) made that important point—but we have to arrested. As right hon. and hon. Members know, nine acknowledge that it was a choice, none the less. The of our own locally engaged staff have also been arrested. contrast between the period of relative openness preceding I will come to that in a moment. the elections and the violent clampdown that has followed Through those arrests and the unjustified expulsion is striking. of two of our diplomats, the UK has felt some of the I cannot know who won the Iranian election; no right force of the clampdown suffered by Iranian citizens. We hon. or hon. Member here today can know that. The need constantly to put on record that the British embassy Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have been in Tehran has played no role in the post-election clear from day one that that the decision on who should demonstrations in Iran. The Iranian claims are absurd be President of Iran is not one for the British Government: and entirely without foundation. In fact; they are a clear it is a matter for the Iranian people alone. We do know and obvious attempt to distract attention from what that the legitimacy of the result that was first announced has clearly been an Iranian reaction to an Iranian on 13 June and later endorsed by the Supreme Leader internal issue. and the Guardian Council has been challenged extensively My disappointment—my right hon. Friend the Foreign from within Iran. It has been challenged by a groundswell Secretary has described his own “cold anger”—is that of feeling from Iranians who feel that their vote has not what we face is not mere rhetoric from Iran. As hon. been counted and that their voice has not been heard. Members including my hon. Friend the Member for They are not a few lone figures calling from the sidelines, Ilford, South mentioned, nine hard-working, dedicated but hundreds of thousands of people right across Iran, members of our embassy staff in Iran have been forced supported on occasions by senior figures from within to endure intimidation, harassment and detention simply the leadership of that republic. because of where they work. The Iranian authorities It is difficult to get a clear picture of what happened, have take action that is entirely unacceptable and completely but the priority surely must be for the Iranian Government without justification. to restore the Iranian people’s confidence in the electoral Rather than question the international community, process by fully investigating the alleged irregularities. we should thank and praise it for the solidarity that it Whether confidence can be restored when the body in has demonstrated alongside Britain in the face of that charge of investigating the elections announces that it is action by the Iranian authorities. I acknowledge here content to accept a turnout of more than 100 per cent. today the unified support and action that the European in 50 Iranian cities remains to be seen. Union has given. Iran has seen that action against one What of the authorities’ response to the demonstrations EU member state will be treated as action against all. that followed the election? I have been appalled by the That is a good example of EU action and it should not violence used against peaceful protesters. Deaths of be undermined. To date, we know that eight staff have demonstrators are deplorable. We have seen the right to been released and one remains in detention. Securing assemble and the right to free speech effectively removed his release remains our top priority. We hope that that through violence, intimidation and threat. The violent will happen soon. clampdown has undoubtedly affected Iran’s standing in I cannot answer the specific question asked by the the eyes of the world. We should not forget that Iran right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John frequently makes demands for respect on an equal basis Stanley), who brings tremendous experience and gravitas 357WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 358WH to this debate, on whether the status of any of the staff I emphasise three points. First, the onus is on Iran was changed in advance of the election and the difficult and now is the time to take positive steps towards period that we faced, but I will investigate and write to taking up the E3 plus 3’s offer. The E3 plus 3 have him. On the general risk assessment that has to be reaffirmed their commitment to the diplomatic process; made, we have a clear priority duty to protect all the the US has made it clear that it will play a full role in people who represent our country in any capacity in any talks; and the international community has fully recognised part of the world. However, adjusting or readjusting Iran’s right to civil nuclear power. We cannot and individual status has to be based on risk assessment by should not allow Iran to make the same old arguments the professionals at the appropriate time. We cannot get to delay talks. Those historic arguments are simply no into sweeping generalisations about such judgments, longer valid. but I will write to the right hon. Gentleman setting out Secondly, the offer to negotiate will not be on the exactly what action was taken. table indefinitely. The US has made it clear that the We will continue to press Iran hard to give us assurances hand will not be outstretched for ever. We should not be that our staff will not be charged at any time in future prepared to wait and wait for an answer from Iran while simply for carrying out their professional responsibilities, it advances its nuclear plans. That is not acceptable. and that they will be able to return to work without fear Thirdly, Iran cannot expect a decision not to respond of harassment or threat. We want a broad-based, positively to the E3 plus 3 to be cost free. The implications constructive bilateral relationship with Iran, but it is for of recent events for progress on the nuclear issue are not Iran to choose the relationship that it has with the UK. yet clear, but it is clear that we must see positive steps I hope that in future Iran chooses a different path from from Iran very soon. It is also clear that hard-headed the one we have seen it pursue in recent weeks. diplomacy may be needed to reach the destination to which we remain 100 per cent. committed—a diplomatic Any positive progress on the nuclear issue is likely to resolution to the issue that assures us of Iran’s intentions come through tough diplomacy, which can only proceed in its nuclear programme. if Iran is prepared to accept, clearly and unequivocally, its international obligations. The UK and the wider The regional consequences of Iran’s actions are crucial international community remain deeply concerned about to peace and stability in the middle east, which is why it the Iranian nuclear programme. Five United Nations is so important to UK interests. Iran seeks respect on Security Council resolutions require Iran to suspend the world stage and a position of influence in its region. enrichment, co-operate fully with the International Atomic It claims that it wants and is working for a secure and Energy Agency, and answer outstanding questions about stable middle east. The UK believes that Iran does the nature of its programme. The Prime Minister made indeed have legitimate interests in the middle east, and it clear on 17 March that Iran has a right to civil nuclear we want a secure and prosperous Iran pursuing its power, but to claim what is rightfully available to it, Iran legitimate interests in the region constructively and must recognise and act on the obligations to which it co-operatively, but its behaviour is often completely at has committed itself under the non-proliferation treaty. odds with its professed intentions. Its means of attaining However, Iran continues to refuse to meet those obligations influence often entirely undermine its rhetoric and claims and is ignoring the Security Council. to respect. For example, Iranian rhetoric claims that only Iran As the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) cares for the Palestinian people and for attaining a said, it is abundantly clear that Iran is not meeting its secure and peaceful future for them, but it directly obligations, and the latest report from the director undermines those claims by maintaining a policy to general of the IAEA also makes that clear. Iran is still arm and support Hamas, Hezbollah and other Palestinian not co-operating fully with the agency or granting the terrorist and rejectionist groups. That is what Iran believes access that it seeks and is required. The IAEA made it is in the interests of its own regime security, but it is not clear that Iran is increasing its enrichment capabilities, in the interest of peace and security for the region. It is which is totally contrary to the Security Council’s wrong. It is also wrong that the President of Iran requirements, and confirmed that Iran has still not engages in anti-Semitic comments and denial of the answered questions about the possible military dimensions holocaust, and makes frequent statements suggesting of its programme. We simply cannot have confidence in that the state of Israel should be wiped off the map. the intentions of a country that acts in that way. That is inconsistent with Iran’s claim to want stability The Foreign Affairs Committee’s report, which was and peace in the middle east. the trigger for today’s debate, argued at the time for a Elsewhere, Iranian interference in the affairs of its significant change in US policy towards Iran. It is a neighbours can have a direct effect on British interests. visionary Committee, and we have now seen the change My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock and other advocated by the report. I am sure that President Obama hon. Members mentioned Afghanistan. Iran is pursuing and his senior personnel pored over the report. The a dangerous dual strategy, supporting Afghanistan’s Select Committee urged the American Administration legitimate leadership through capacity building and to adopt an entirely different position. President Obama’s economic assistance, but undermining that with carefully Administration have made it abundantly clear that they calibrated support, weapons and training for the Taliban. will engage directly with Iran, and play a full role in all In Iraq, Iran has provided support for militia groups. diplomatic efforts. That has undoubtedly reinvigorated Iran believes that it can achieve its aims of regime the E3 plus 3 diplomatic process. US involvement security through those means. It cannot. We believe that fundamentally changes what is available to Iran if it in the past year Iran has continued in a limited way to co-operates, but as yet, sadly and regrettably, Iran has arm and support the Taliban. made no positive response to the renewed E3 plus 3 Within the constraints of national security and ensuring invitation to enter into negotiations on the nuclear that in no circumstances will our troops be put at risk, I programme. will see what level of information I can make available 359WH Global Security (Iran)9 JULY 2009 Global Security (Iran) 360WH

[Mr. Ivan Lewis] forcibly transferred to a country where they have reason to fear persecution. We will constantly monitor the to right hon. and hon. Members on Afghanistan. I will situation. also respond to the comments of my hon. Friend the Recent events in Iran should be cause for even more Member for Thurrock about Camp Ashraf. The British concern than in the past. ambassador called on the Iraqi human rights Minister on 13 April and reminded him of the Iraqi Government’s 5.46 pm earlier assurances about the treatment of Ashraf’s Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order residents—that no resident of Camp Ashraf will be No. 10(11)). 47WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS

report have been laid before Parliament today and my Written Ministerial detailed response to it are available in the Vote Office, the Printed Paper Office, the Libraries of both Houses Statements and at: www.teachernet.gov.uk/pay. The STRB has recommended that teachers’ pay be increased by 2.3 per cent. from September 2009 and Thursday 9 July 2009 September 2010; with adjustments to the inner London pay scales from September 2009 and September 2010. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS I am grateful to the STRB for these recommendations which, subject to the statutory consultation process, RDA Board Chairs I intend to accept and implement in full. These recommendations represent the second and third year The Minister for Regional Economic Development and of a three year pay award and confirm recommendations Co-ordination (Ms Rosie Winterton): My noble Friend first made by the STRB in January 2008. the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and I also note the STRB’s recommendations for regular Skills (Lord Mandelson) has made the following statement. diversity and equality data collection; encouraging schools I have approved the appointments for the new RDA to use existing recruitment and retention flexibilities in Board Chairs listed below. shortage subjects; and consideration to be given to the Robert Hough - North West Regional development Agency introduction of new measures to improve the supply of (NWRDA). mathematics teachers. My detailed response contains Rob Douglas CBE - South East England Regional Development further information on all of these recommendations. Agency (SEEDA). (The following sets out the full set of recommendations Robert Hough will commence as Chair on 17 August from the School Teachers’ Review Body and published in 2009. the 18th Report part two (Cm 7652) on 9 July 2009, Rob Douglas will commence as Chair designate, to together with the response from the Secretary of State ensure continuity from 1 September 2009 and take up for Children, Schools and Families. The STRB’s post as Chair from 2 November 2009. recommendations below are in bold.) The new appointments will be initially until 13 December 2012. The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and The appointments have been made in accordance Families (Ed Balls): Part two of the 18th report of the with the Commissioner for Public Appointments Code School Teachers’ Review Body (STRB) is being published of Practice. today. It covers the review of teachers’ pay which was I have placed further details of the appointments in referred to the STRB in June 2008. Copies of the report the Library of both Houses. They were all made in are available in the Vote Office, the Printed Paper Office accordance with the Code of Practice of the Commissioner and in the Libraries of both Houses and at: http:// for Public Appointments. www.teachernet.gov.uk/pay. In making its recommendations, the STRB was required TREASURY to have regard to considerations as set out in the remit letter of 25 June 2008. This report reviews the Budget ECOFIN (July 2009) appropriateness of the teachers’ pay award for September 2009 and September 2010. It also makes recommendations The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): about regular diversity and equality data collection; I will attend the Budget ECOFIN to be held on 10 July encouraging schools to use existing recruitment and in Brussels. The Preliminary Draft Budget for the European retention flexibilities in shortage subjects; and consideration Communities for 2010 will be discussed, with Council to be given to the introduction of new measures to looking to agree its first reading position in preparation improve the supply of mathematics teachers. I am grateful for a conciliation meeting with the European Parliament, for the careful and detailed attention the STRB has which will be held directly after budget ECOFIN. given to these matters. I am inviting comments on the Items on the agenda are as follows: STRB’s report and my response to its recommendations Preparation of the conciliation meeting with the European by 5 August 2009. Parliament; Teachers’ Pay Establishment by the Council of the draft budget for the European Communities for 2010. The STRB has recommended: an increase of 2.3 per cent. from September 2009 and 2.3 per CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES cent. from September 2010 in the values of the pay scales and allowances; Schools Teachers’ Review Body Recommendations that there be an adjustment to the main and upper pay scale for inner London as proposed in STRB’s 17th report part one: a minimum starting salary of £26,000 for teachers in inner London The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and from September 2009 and £27,000 from September 2010 and Families (Ed Balls): Part two of the 18th report of the consequential adjustments to the main pay scale; and further School Teachers’ Review Body (STRB) is being published enhancement in the value of the upper pay scale in inner London today, which reviews the appropriateness of the pay from September 2009 and September 2010. award for September 2009 and 2010 which was referred I am grateful to the STRB for conducting its review in June 2008. I am grateful for the careful consideration of teachers’ pay and, subject to the statutory which the STRB has given to this matter. Copies of the consultation process, I intend to accept and implement 49WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS its recommendations in full. These recommendations COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT represent the second and third year of a three year pay award and confirm recommendations first made by the STRB in January 2008. Migration Impacts Fund Other matters arising from the STRB’s review The STRB has further recommended that the The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Department: Government (Mr. John Denham): Today I am announcing the successful proposals for England to receive a share undertake regular data collection and analysis to monitor of the migration impacts fund. The fund provides developments in the teacher workforce related to issues of diversity £35 million across the UK for 2009-10 financed by a and equality. This should include an ongoing review of matters relating to equal pay and of the extent to which the teaching levy on migrants and, subject to a review in the autumn, profession reflects the diversity of the population it serves; a similar amount in 2010-11. This money will be used to tackle illegal working practices and reduce local pressure should review and strengthen the ways it encourages schools to on public services. use existing recruitment and retention flexibilities to address local teacher shortages in mathematics and other priority subjects; This funding works alongside the Government’s points and based system which means only those migrants the country needs can come here. The money will be made should consider the introduction of new financial and other available quickly and directly to local services across the incentives and measures to improve the quantity and quality of country, including police, schools and hospitals. the supply of mathematics teachers. If asked to do so, the STRB would welcome the opportunity to explore the form these might These front-line services, police, councils, the NHS take in a future remit. and voluntary organisations have identified projects in their area that will make the biggest difference to insulating I agree with the STRB’s recommendation about data them and local people against the impact of migration. collection and analysis. That is why my Department is Every region of England will benefit, with the amount developing the new School Workforce Census which each receives being weighted towards the areas where will provide comprehensive data on an annual basis international migration has had the greatest short-term about the individual characteristics, contract details impact. and pay of school teachers. The development is being piloted with a view to full live roll-out in 2010. The data Projects receiving funding include those introducing collected from schools and local authorities in England tougher measures to crack-down on rogue employers, will include age, gender, ethnicity, disability and those creating more teachers in schools to ensure good qualifications—all at individual teacher level—to allow results for all and those increasing GP registration to detailed analysis related to diversity and equality issues. cut pressures on emergency services and A and E. Fairness in employment: I note that the STRB recommends that my Department The vast majority of employers are responsible but a should take steps to encourage schools to use existing small minority attempt to flout the law, undercut minimum recruitment and retention flexibilities to address teacher wages and exploit low paid workers, many of whom are shortages in mathematics and other priority subjects at migrants. We are funding projects that will protect a local level. Following an earlier consultation on how existing workers through enforcing the minimum wage best to encourage increased use of existing pay flexibilities, and by increasing awareness of health and safety regulations there was no appetite for any action plans or guidance ensuring all employees meet their obligations to all or other communications. However, a note was added workers. to the 2008 model pay policy, which states “Schools should consider making use of existing pay flexibilities Housing services: within the school teachers’ pay and conditions document— There is no evidence of unfair access to migrants in particularly to help with the recruitment of teachers of social housing. However, in some areas local authorities shortage subjects such as mathematics, science and, in report concerns that the housing used by migrants can Wales, Welsh. Schools will be expected to meet the costs be overcrowded or in poor condition. This can lead to of any payments from within the budgets they have local tensions and cohesion issues. Funding is being available”. I would like to invite consultees’ views on targeted to this by cracking down on rogue landlords whether any other strategies might usefully be adopted. that will improve the quality of neighbourhoods for all residents. I note that the STRB has also said that consideration should be given to the introduction of new measures to Children and young people: attract high quality mathematics teachers in the required Funding will be targeted at those schools dealing numbers. While there is some evidence that the measures with a sudden influx of pupils whose first language is we have taken to increase recruitment to shortage subjects not English. This will support extra multilingual teachers such as mathematics and science are working, I would freeing up teaching time for the benefit of all the class prefer to return to this recommendation once I have and helping new arrivals to settle in further evidence of their impact. Meanwhile I would quickly. welcome consultees’ ideas, in the context of the recently published 21st century schools White Paper, as to what More English language lessons: might be acceptable forms of any such incentives or Being able to speak English is vital in order to find measures to improve the quality and quantity of work and play a full role in the community. Funding mathematics teachers. provision through the MIF will mean that migrants will be paying for their own classes and ensure that they can 51WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 52WS access local services properly, reducing the pressure on ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS services and the cost to public services from translation and interpretation. Community safety: Migrants to this country should understand our laws Campaign for the Farmed Environment and sign up to our shared values. Funding will be provided for projects that tackle anti-social behaviour and will support extra police community support officers. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): I wish to inform the House Health: of changes to cross-compliance and of an agreement Local services report that migrants often do not that has been reached on the approach to recapture the understand how to access local healthcare in the most environmental benefits of set-aside. This follows public appropriate and therefore cheapest way. Funding will consultation earlier this year. be targeted to increase GP registration relieving pressures To meet the requirements of the common agricultural on A and E. policy health check for the protection of water resources, Every project has been assessed on the basis that it new standards will be introduced to cross-compliance. will help migrants integrate into local communities and These will require farmers to comply with the existing in doing so benefit the settled community. The agreed domestic abstraction licensing regime for irrigation activities grant allocation for this year will be paid in one instalment. and to restrict the spreading of inorganic fertiliser and manure where it is likely to adversely impact on water quality.In addition farmers will be encouraged to implement buffer strips as a voluntary measure to further protect water resources, and the success of this approach will be DEFENCE monitored. We will also consolidate four existing standards relating to soil into one, providing farmers with increased flexibility and clarity and removing the need for derogations to access waterlogged soils. Further simplification will RAF Force Protection Wing come from clarification of the existing standard protecting hedgerows which will encourage traditional hedgebank management. Lastly, on land not in agricultural production, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Bill Rammell): greater flexibility will be allowed by confirming that a The RAF Regiment provides essential protection to our range of non-agricultural activities can be undertaken. air assets and armed forces serving on operations in Afghanistan. They are structured, equipped and trained The Government have agreed with the National Farmers for this specialist role. Their RAF Force Protection Union, the Country Land and Business Association, Wing Headquarters and RAF Regiment Field Squadrons and other partners, to set targets to help farmland birds, allow air operations to continue despite hostile action, biodiversity and water quality, through an industry-led by protecting the base assets, personnel, and particularly voluntary approach to recapturing the environmental aircraft on flight paths approaching and departing the benefits of set-aside. This campaign for the farmed base. They are currently delivering in this role on environment will be led by the farming industry and is operations at a number of air, joint-service and international an opportunity to create a successful model for future operating bases in Afghanistan and, until recently, in voluntary partnerships between Government and farmers. Iraq. The voluntary approach is aimed at the three key beneficiaries of set-aside—farmland birds, other biodiversity I should like to inform the House that in order to and resource protection—through voluntary action and increase the RAF Regiment’s capability I have decided encouraging the uptake of the most valuable options to establish an additional RAF Force Protection Wing within environmental stewardship. Headquarters and RAF Regiment Field Squadron. Under the new agreement, by June 2012 farmers will: The new RAF Force Protection Wing Headquarters and Regiment Field Squadron will increase the time double the uptake of the agri-environment entry-level scheme that their personnel spend between operational deployments, in-field options, covering 40,000 hectares on top of current will bring harmony levels more into line with guidelines levels. and will have a positive effect on retention of skilled increase uncropped land by 20,000 hectares from January 2008 personnel. levels. The campaign will also seek to improve the environmental Recruitment and training are underway to meet the management of at least 60,000 hectares of this land. additional 12 personnel required for the RAF Force introduce voluntary measures on other land covering at least Protection Wing Headquarters and 172 personnel for 30,000 hectares and up to 50,000 hectares. the RAF Regiment Field Squadron. Both units will be All this will be on top of a baseline of the land formed in October 2009, and are scheduled to deploy already being managed for environmental benefit which on Op Herrick in April 2011. will be measured this autumn. The campaign will tailor An ongoing basing study has determined that the activities at a local level working through county groups optimum basing solution for the new RAF Regiment that will be set up by farmers. I have made it clear there Field Squadron will be either RAF Shawbury or RAF is a mandatory fallback, which could be introduced at a Leuchars. The basing work for the headquarters is at future date if the campaign is judged not to be working, an earlier stage and the options have yet to be refined. but we will give it our full support. The final outcome of the studies are expected by I will place a copy of the memorandum of understanding autumn 2009. signed by the partners in the Library of the House. 53WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

Agriculture Council Next, the presidency explained their work to reach compromises on the proposals to ban the use of seven pesticides which had not been approved by the relevant The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and regulatory committee. Compromises had been reached Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): The Minister for Food, on three, which would be approved as “A” points at the Farming and Environment represented the United June Environment Council. Work was continuing on Kingdom at June’s Agriculture and Fisheries Council in the other four. Luxembourg. Richard Lochhead MSP also attended. The presidency reported on the limited progress made There were six substantive agenda items under agriculture on the proposal to modernise, simplify and clarify the and fisheries, and a number of AOB items. 30-year old rules on food labelling. On agriculture, presidency efforts to agree Council Finally on agriculture, the UK thanked the Commission conclusions on the future of direct payments under for the flexibility it had shown so far to help reduce the CAP reform were rebuffed. With six statements of compliance costs of sheep EID, but stressed that the opposition, (including the UK), the document was adopted dossier remained of concern within the UK because of as presidency conclusions. the impact on the farming industry. The UK put forward Ministers endorsed the Council conclusions on the further proposals for reducing the costs of the regulation reform of less favoured areas. Ministers also endorsed whilst retaining the benefits and protection provided by the Council conclusions on agricultural product quality. sheep EID, however the proposals were not supported by the Commission. At a closed lunch, Ministers discussed the difficulties in the dairy sector. The Commission informed the debate, On fisheries, the Council adopted pre-prepared which took place in the light of recently adopted European conclusions on the importance of the aquaculture Council conclusions on the dairy sector, with a quarterly industry, principally welcoming the Commission’s April report on diary market trends. A number of member communication designed to give new impetus to the states spoke on the present difficulties on the milk sustainable development of aquaculture in the EU. market, and questioned the role and power of retailers Ministers then held a structured debate on some of in managing prices. However none came forward with the key issues outstanding in the negotiations to agree a ideas of what additional measures could be introduced new control regulation for EU fisheries, which governs beyond those already in hand. the obligations for monitoring fishing activity to ensure There were nine agriculture AOB items. The Dutch compliance with EU legal obligations. On the main Minister encouraged Ministers to reflect on the specific issues, member states were broadly in agreement that recommendations from CSD-17 in respect of agriculture there should be tighter controls and better use of and climate change in the run-up to the Copenhagen technologies to ensure a more cost-effective and workable climate change negotiations. The incoming presidency enforcement regime. (Sweden) also plans to discuss this, notably at its informal Turning to fishing opportunities for 2010, the Council in September. The UK underlined the importance Commission pointed to its communication setting out of the debate and distributed copies of its recently the intended approach to setting catch limits for 2010. published climate projections for the UK. When taken with existing multi-annual recovery and The presidency then briefly reported the conclusions management plans for certain stocks, and the scientific on the EU paying agencies conference held under its advice due for publication on 26 June, an accurate auspices. impression of the likely outcomes for each stock can be France introduced its paper calling for the rapid determined. The UK and others supported the high- implementation of recommendations made by the grading ban, and the UK noted that economic impact European Parliament in respect of the Commission’s assessment should be undertaken before TAC reductions 2008 communication on food prices, and the soon-to-be- were agreed to. adopted recommendations of the high level group on Finally under any other business, the Commission the competitiveness of the agro-food industry. Many gave an oral six-monthly report on CFP simplification, member states shared the French concerns, though the noting more streamlining and the deletion of some UK cautioned that any new regulation needed to be obsolete regulations. The Commissioner also thanked proportionate and evidence-based. member states for having responded well to their The presidency outlined the progress it had made on obligations on bluefin tuna in the Eastern Atlantic and the control of trade in illegally logged timber member the Mediterranean. states, including the UK, urged rapid action to agree the dossier and called for inclusion a ban on the import of illegally logged timber. Sweden, as incoming presidency, said it aimed to reach a Council common position by December 2009. Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture The presidency also concluded that the proposed Science regulation updating and harmonising the animal welfare rules applicable at slaughter was agreed, and would be adopted as an “A”point in due course. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Ministers were then updated on the progress of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Huw Irranca-Davies): welfare of animals used in scientific research dossier. The 2008-09 annual report and accounts for the Centre Sweden confirmed it would be a priority during their for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science presidency. will be laid before Parliament today. 55WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE The chief medical officer will be setting out today the format and content of a weekly situation report, which will cover: estimates of influenza-like illness cases, estimated using two Bletchley Park Commemorative Badge different surveillance systems; the number of calls to NHS information lines for colds/flu; the number of deaths of patients with swine flu (reported The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth deaths where the cases have tested positive for swine flu); and Affairs (David Miliband): I am delighted to announce the number of hospitalisations (any swine flu inpatient over that the Government are to honour the vital contribution the past 24 hours who has been H1N1 swabbed or clinically made by the military and civilian members of the presumed). Government code and cypher school who served at This change reflects the World Health Organisation-led Bletchley Park and its outstations during the second move away from the “comprehensive assessment” world war. A commemorative badge will be awarded to component of surveillance, where the focus is on all surviving veterans in recognition of their great success characterising the clinical, epidemiological and virological in intercepting and decrypting enciphered messages. features of a new disease, to the “monitoring”component, Enigma is the most widely recognised example of this where the focus is on monitoring geographical spread, work, but Bletchley Park and its outstations had many trends, intensity and impact. more successes against different cipher machines and The UK has well established, and internationally manual ciphers. The thousands of people who worked respected, surveillance systems for monitoring incidence at Bletchley Park and its outstations played a vital part and assessing the impact of seasonal influenza. These in the war effort, and kept their work secret until the systems have operated well through the normal “flu Government avowed its success. The awarding of a season” over the last few years and we will build on commemorative badge is a fitting recognition of their them as we refine the revised surveillance system for loyal service. swine flu. The Government Communications Headquarters The revised system will be augmented by additional (GCHQ) will be handling applications for badges. The surveillance activities that are relevant to the pandemic GCHQ website (www.gchq.gov.uk) contains the necessary situation. This will include continuing to assess the details which will also be available on request from severity of disease associated with this novel virus, and GCHQ and at Bletchley Park and other museums. The monitoring changes in the characteristics of the virus. commemorative badge will be launched at Bletchley In addition to this, hon. Members will receive a Park on 16 July and a celebratory event will be held weekly update on the impact of swine flu in their local later this year. area.

HEALTH NORTHERN IRELAND

Swine Flu Pandemic Youth Justice Agency (Annual Report and Accounts 2008-09) The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): As I announced in my oral statement to the House on The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul 2 July 2009, Official Report, column 497, part of the Goggins): I have placed copies of the “Youth Justice move to the new “treatment” phase of our response to Agency’s Annual Report and Accounts 2008-09” in the the current swine flu pandemic will involve a new way of Libraries of both Houses. collecting and publishing information about swine flu. This is the agency’s sixth annual report since its The treatment phase refers to the period when antivirals inception on 1 April 2003. It achieved 10 of its 14 key are used only for treating those who have contracted the performance targets and 18 of its 22 development objectives. illness; contact tracing ceases as does providing antivirals for prophylaxis. The swabbing and testing of all cases TRANSPORT also ceases. The Health Protection Agency (HPA) had previously Smoke-Free Provisions (Ships) been collecting, compiling and releasing United Kingdom figures on a daily basis on their website. These statistics set out the number of laboratory confirmed cases, as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport well as clinically presumed cases. (Paul Clark): The Government introduced restrictions Because we will rely on clinical diagnosis instead of on smoking in enclosed workplaces, public places and laboratory confirmation of swabs to identify cases of vehicles in England from 1 July 2007. These provisions swine flu, we cannot continue to measure total number are described in the Health Act 2006 and aim to save of cases in the same way as we have been doing. This is thousands of lives over the next decade by reducing because without testing everyone we would not know both exposure to hazardous second-hand smoke and how many swine flu cases there are among other cases overall smoking rates. of influenza-like illnesses. The Health Act 2006 includes provisions designed to Therefore, to replace the data previously published, prohibit smoking in enclosed public places and vehicles, we will need to move to higher level estimates of spread. but does not cover ships operating at sea or on inland This will be combined with other key indicators to give waters. Therefore, the Government stated their intention a fuller picture of the progress of swine flu. to introduce similar provisions to provide protection 57WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS from second-hand smoke for people on ships operating Smoking will be prohibited except in areas of the ship in UK waters (including the territorial sea and inland designated by the Master in accordance with the regulations waters). which may include designated smoking cabins on cruise In 2007, the Department for Transport held a ships or passenger ferries. The Maritime and Coastguard consultation exercise seeking, first, views on how such Agency will hold the responsibility for enforcement of restrictions should be applied. Following that consultation, these provisions with a scale of penalties similar to draft regulations have now been produced and are being those laid down in the Health Act. made available for public consultation from today. Pleasure vessels such as yachts, motor cruisers and The draft regulations being consulted on are made small private fishing vessels, are exempted from the under the Merchant Shipping Act 1995. They will apply smoke free provisions. However, any such vessels carrying to all ships operating within the 12 mile UK territorial fare paying passengers or operating with an employed waters, which include inland waters, providing they crew will fall into scope of the regulations. carry passengers or employees, unless the ship is exercising Copies of the consultation paper and draft regulations the right of innocent passage or the right of transit have been sent to a wide range of representatives in the passage through straits used for international navigation. shipping industry and they will have 12 weeks to respond These provisions will extend to England, Scotland, to the consultation. Copies have been placed in the Wales and Northern Ireland so that a consistent set of Library of the House. Further copies of the consultation UK restrictions can be applied. paper are available on the DfT website at: www.dft.gov.uk. 917W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 918W

for the Eastern region to deliver a Links to Schools Written Answers to programme working with local authorities. Of this amount, £170,281 has been made available to Cambridgeshire Questions county council. More detailed information is not available without incurring disproportionate cost.

Thursday 9 July 2009 Cycling: Hertfordshire

TRANSPORT Mike Penning: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how much funding his Airports Department has allocated to encourage bicycle usage in (a) Hemel Hempstead, (b) Dacorum and (c) Susan Kramer: To ask the Minister of State, Hertfordshire in each of the last five years. [284425] Department for Transport what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of enacting the proposed Mr. Khan: Between 2005 and March 2008, Sustrans special administration regime in the event of a major (the Sustainable Transport Charity) has on the Department airport owner going into administration. [283960] for Transport’s behalf made available £782,667 in grants for local authorities in the East of England region to Paul Clark: As part of a consultation on proposals to deliver a Links to Schools programme to encourage reform the economic regulation of airports, the Department more children to cycle to school. Of this amount, for Transport sought views on a package of proposed £32,436 has been made available to Hertfordshire county measures to strengthen the financial resilience of airports. council. The Department is currently considering responses to We have also been awarding cycle training grants to the consultation and will make an appropriate assessment local authorities since 2006-07 to encourage cycling to of special administration following analysis of those school and the Links to Schools programme referred to consultation responses. above. The grants awarded each year to Hertfordshire Crossings: Tolls county council are set out in the following table. Local authority cycle training grants to Hertfordshire county council Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Minister of State, Grant (£) Department for Transport who is responsible for 2006-07 28,000 setting the charges for (a) the Severn Crossing, (b) the Dartford Crossing and (c) the Humber Crossing. 2007-08 59,500 2008-09 65,000 [285577] 2009-10 70,000 Mr. Khan: For the Severn Crossing, Severn River Total 2006-07 to 2009-10 222,500 Crossing plc is responsible for setting the toll charges. The Severn Bridge Act 1992 sets out the formula to increase toll charges in line with RPI. Under this Act Departmental Consultants the Secretary of State for Transport is required to make an Order in December each year—fixing the toll amounts Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Minister of State, for the following calendar year. Department for Transport whether consultants acting For the Dartford Crossing, Le Crossing Company as interim managers in his Department may (a) Ltd (who operate the tunnel) are responsible for setting dismiss civil servants and (b) initiate formal the road user charge. The Secretary of State for Transport procedures against civil servants on the grounds of (i) is responsible for approving this using powers under the poor performance, (ii) attendance and (iii) discipline. Transport Act 2000. [283199] For the Humber Bridge, the Humber Bridge Board is responsible for setting the toll charges. Under the Humber Chris Mole: Consultants acting as managers may Bridge Act 1971, the Secretary of State for Transport is take any management action short of dismissal, but a responsible for approving any proposals for toll increases decision to dismiss decision can only be taken by a civil submitted by the Board. servant. Cycling: Finance Departmental Internet Mr. Vara: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how much capital funding has been allocated to the links to schools cycling programme in Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister of State, (a) North West Cambridgeshire constituency, (b) Department for Transport when his Department plans Cambridgeshire, (c) Huntingdonshire and (d) to update its web browsers from Internet Explorer 6. Peterborough in each year since the inception of the [285027] programme. [283415] Chris Mole: The position regarding updating web Mr. Khan: Between 2005 and March 2008, Sustrans browsers from Internet Explorer 6 (IE6) varies between (Sustainable Transport Charity) has on the Department the Department for Transport (DfT) (Central) and its for Transport’s behalf made available £511,531 in grants Agencies, and can be summarised as follows: 919W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 920W

Network Rail: directors, in what circumstances his Position Department may appoint directors to private Department for DfT (Central) migrated from IE6 to IE7 in 2008. companies. [284555] Transport (Central) Driver and Vehicle Plan to upgrade from IE 6 between September 2009 Chris Mole: The only circumstances where the Licensing Agency and March 2010 on its main campus, and September 2009 and September 2010 across the Department for Transport may appoint directors to Local Services Network. private companies is where something is written in law Highways Agency Currently have no plans to update from IE6. or the constitution of a company which would permit Driving Standards Are currently evaluating IE7 and IE8. If tests the Department to appoint a director. The Secretary of Agency successful, one of these versions will be rolled out in the next three months. State for Transport may appoint a special director to Vehicle and Operator Currently have no plans to upgrade from IE6. the Board of Network Rail at his discretion. Services Agency Railways Marine and Currently still using IE6 as required for core Coastguard Agency business systems, but plan to test IE8 in early 2010 with an aim to migrate in mid 2010. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Minister of State, Vehicle Certification Plan to upgrade from IE6 to IE8 by September Department for Transport what steps he is taking to Agency 2009. encourage rail travel in off-peak hours. [284730] Government Car and Already use IE7, although a few users are still on Despatch Agency IE6 for compatibility reasons—they will be upgraded as soon as compatibility issues resolved. Chris Mole: The Department for Transport regulates certain rail fares, particularly where people have little Departmental Secondment alternative to rail to make necessary journeys (such as season tickets used by commuters). Regulated fares Sarah Teather: To ask the Minister of State, account for in excess of 60 per cent. of all rail journeys Department for Transport how many employees of his made. Department have been posted to work in offices of Train operators are free to apply commercial pricing hon. Members of each political party in each of the to unregulated fares, which means charging higher last five years. [284886] fares at peak times when trains are full but lower fares to price-sensitive passengers in the off-peak to attract Chris Mole: Civil servants are required to act in additional passengers. This helps achieve value for money accordance with the requirements of the Civil Service in terms of both passengers carried and subsidy required. Code. Severn Bridge: Tolls Civil servants may shadow MPs as part of a programme run by the Industry and Parliament Trust. Information on the number of staff who have participated is not Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Minister of State, held centrally. Department for Transport (1) how much revenue was taken from each charging category on each of the two Heathrow Airport: Air Pollution Severn crossings in each of the last five years; [285578] (2) how many vehicles in Category 3 used the Severn Tim Farron: To ask the Minister of State, crossings in each month of each of the last five years. Department for Transport what assessment he has [285579] made of the effect of a third runway at Heathrow on the Government’s ability to meet the requirements of Mr. Khan: Tolls are levied on the westbound carriageways EU legislation for levels of (a) nitrogen dioxide and only from England to Wales. The following table sets (b) particulate matter. [285515] out the annual revenue on the Severn Crossing for each class of vehicle (charging category) from 2004-08: Paul Clark: Our assessment of the nitrogen dioxide £ (NO2) and particulate matter (PM10) impacts of adding a third runway at Heathrow was set out in the “Adding Total Cars LGV’s HGV’s Capacity at Heathrow Airport” consultation document 2004 66,371,000 37,937,000 8,852,000 19,582,000 and the relevant technical reports, published in November 2005 69,499,000 40,121,000 9,457,000 19,921,000 2007. 2006 72,008,000 41,018,000 10,149,000 20,841,000 National Express East Coast 2007 76,101,000 43,137,000 11,025,000 21,939,000 2008 77,949,000 44,516,000 11,607,000 21,826,000 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, The following table sets out how many category 3 Department for Transport what his estimate is of the vehicles used the Severn Crossing—by each month and capital value of National Express East Coast Ltd. annually from 2004-08) [284695] Number Chris Mole: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 gave him on 7 July 2009, Official Report, column 644W. January 137,759 134,869 129,761 127,078 129,840 Network Rail: Directors February 136,686 129,896 126,091 128,835 128,570 March 135,672 149,375 148,576 142,514 149,912 April 142,564 138,498 132,031 142,484 138,525 Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, May 141,324 148,754 145,714 138,623 138,604 Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of June 137,414 145,641 147,376 145,306 146,776 4 June 2009, Official Report, columns 611-12W, on 921W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 922W

is planned in order to provide funding for the proposals Number contained in the Building Britain’s Future document. 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004 [284707] July 144,900 151,450 143,295 142,417 148,518 August 129,931 146,676 143,308 140,714 139,502 Chris Mole: The Department for Transport is continually September 138,264 141,487 142,566 143,872 147,489 assessing risk in its programmes. Its current judgment is October 142,618 154,104 148,308 143,056 144,250 that it will be able to provide up to £350 million from November 128,216 151,385 149,910 146,799 148,896 underspends by the end of the financial year. December 119,414 126,566 126,594 127,921 132,820 Total 1,634,672 1,718,710 1,683,530 1,669,619 1,693,702 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Speed Limits: Schools Animals: Imports Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport if he will encourage local Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for highway authorities to adopt variable speed limits on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what evidence his Department holds on the effect of the ban on roads past schools. [284806] importation of wild birds into the EU on the number of reptiles imported into the EU since 2007. [284515] Paul Clark: Local highways authorities already have powers to introduce variable 20 mph speed limits on Huw Irranca-Davies: We are aware of reports that the roads outside schools if they believe it appropriate to do number of reptiles being imported into the EU has so. increased since 2007, but we do not have access to The Department for Transport guidance on setting EU-wide statistics to substantiate these reports. local speed limits recommends local highways authorities consider introducing 20 mph speed limits, variable 20 mph Avian Influenza: Vaccination speed limits and 20 mph zones in residential areas. This view is reinforced in the document “A Safer Way: Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Consultation on Making Britain’s Roads the Safest in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent the World” published in April 2009. steps his Department has taken to ensure the However, there are cost implications related to signing availability of avian vaccines in the event of an variable speed limits in accordance with regulations. outbreak of avian influenza. [284101] The Department is working with several local highway Jim Fitzpatrick: We are currently reviewing our vaccine authorities to trial more cost effective signing which, if requirements in the event of vaccination being required successful will enable all local highway authorities to as a control measure in the event of an outbreak of more easily introduce variable 20 mph speed limits avian influenza. We expect to invite tenders on this outside schools. shortly. Trams: Railways Central Science Laboratory: Pay

Mr. Tom Harris: To ask the Minister of State, Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Transport what progress his Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much was Department has made on its tram-train pilot. [286060] paid in bonuses to (a) directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and delivery managers and (d) executive Chris Mole: The Department for Transport is in support and administration staff of the Central discussions with Northern and Network Rail about the Science Laboratory in each of the last five years. operation of a tram-train trail on the Penistone line and [283517] expects to make an announcement in due course. Dan Norris: Amounts paid in bonuses to staff in the Transport Central Science Laboratory (CSL) in each of the last four years are listed in the following table. Data for 2009 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, are not available because on 1 April 2009 CSL became Department for Transport in respect of which of his part of the Food and Environment Research Agency Department’s (a) projects and (b) budgets underspend (Fera).

Bonus payments to CSL staff Specialist/Delivery Executive support/ Directors Senior managers managers Admin Other

2005 Total paid in bonuses (£) 28,806 39,238 65,840 8,157 23,869 Recipients 6 39 112 28 66 Average (£) 4,801 1,006 588 291 362

2006 Total paid in bonuses (£) 36,192 56,492 77,279 11,708 26,739 Recipients 6 44 114 33 63 923W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 924W

Bonus payments to CSL staff Specialist/Delivery Executive support/ Directors Senior managers managers Admin Other

Average (£) 6,032 1,284 678 355 424

2007 Total paid in bonuses (£) 45,271 69,300 100,117 13,016 48,599 Recipients 6 50 127 38 110 Average (£) 7,545 1,386 788 343 442

2008 Total paid in bonuses (£) 40,890 76,931 113,330 14,888 41,920 Recipients 6 50 130 34 96 Average (£) 6,815 1,539 872 438 437

20091 Total paid in bonuses (£) n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Recipients n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Average (£) n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 1 Bonuses for 2009 are subject to the 2009 pay settlement which has not yet been agreed. Source: Individual pay records held on the ResourceLink payroll system.

Exmoor National Park: Public Appointments Incidental Catches of Cetaceans in Fisheries (England) Order 2005 Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what steps people applied for appointment to the committee of his Department is taking in respect of fishing vessels the Exmoor National Park as one of his appointments that do not comply with the provisions of the on the last occasion on which such appointments were Incidental Catches of Cetaceans in Fisheries (England) made; what criteria were used to decide whom to Order 2005; [284510] appoint; and what the (a) name and (b) job was of (2) how many UK fishing vessels of 12 metres or each person on the selection panel. [284405] more in length using gillnets or entangling nets comply with the provisions of the Incidental Catches of Huw Irranca-Davies: Five applications were received Cetaceans in Fisheries (England) Order 2005 on the use for the 2009 round of appointments to Exmoor national of acoustic deterrents on nets. [284511] park authority. The Secretary of State members are appointed to the Huw Irranca-Davies: The UK is committed to enforcing national park authorities to reflect the national importance all aspects of Council Regulation 812/2004 and the placed on national parks. Such members will consider provisions of the Incidental Catches of Cetaceans in strategic issues such as responsibility for conservation, Fisheries (England) Order 2005 in order to minimise recreation, planning, access, land management and resources cetacean by-catch. issues, as well as reflecting both local and national The Marine and Fisheries agency (MFA) monitor interests. compliance through the inspection activities of the Royal Navy fishery protection squadron. In addition, The selection process followed the Office of the the MFA conducts training courses for the fisheries Commissioner for Public Appointment (OCPA) guidelines. protection squadron who undertake boarding at sea. The selection panel members were Doug Hulyer (panel This has led to increased industry awareness of cetacean chair)—Natural England Board, Councillor John Dyke— by-catch issues. chairman of Exmoor national park authority and Tony The use of acoustic deterrent devices as specified Swabe—OCPA independent assessor. under Council Regulation 812/2004 has been problematic Floods: South West for the UK and for other member states. UK fishing vessels have identified pinger deployment and safety Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State issues during fishing operations. We reported our concerns for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many to the European Commission and we have been given flood defence schemes are under construction in the scientific dispensation to start a research programme to Wessex Water area; and how many such schemes were develop appropriate and effective pingers that are safe planned for this year in the capital funding programme for our fishers to use. for such schemes. [284403] The UK’s research into acoustic deterrent devices is being carried out on behalf of DEFRA by the sea Huw Irranca-Davies: Within the Wessex area the mammal research unit (SMRU). SMRU, in collaboration Environment Agency has 20 flood defence schemes with SeaFish and the industry are currently testing a under way and has planned works at 14 other locations. dolphin dissuasive device (DDD) and they are looking Local authorities have work under way at Weston-super- at the effects these devices may have on the population Mare as well as work planned at Bristol Harbour for distribution of harbour porpoises. Initial results on the later in the year. efficacy of these pingers are promising. 925W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 926W

Marine Management Organisation Gillian Merron: I have been asked to reply. There have been no discussions at European Union Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for level on country of origin labelling for foods traded Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he expects between EU member states. an equality impact assessment of the location of the Waste and Resources Action Programme headquarters of the future Marine Management Organisation to be made. [284381] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what (a) Huw Irranca-Davies: The “initial” and “partial” phases remuneration and (b) pension entitlement is provided of an Equality Impact Assessment (EqIA) have already for each board member of the Waste and Resources been completed on the relocation of the headquarters Action Programme. [284928] of the proposed new Marine Management Organisation. The final phase—which will see completion of the Dan Norris: This information is provided in the Waste “full” EqIA—is currently in process and we still await and Resources Action Programme’s Annual Report the outcome of the location of a suitable office for the and Accounts; the latest copy of which is available on MMO on Tyneside. Subject to considerations around its website. that however, we aim to finalise the EqIA by the end of August 2009. Water Charges Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Origin Marking: EC Countries Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he has made of average level of domestic water rates in Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for each region in each of the last 10 years. [284145] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions he has had at EU level on the introduction Huw Irranca-Davies: The following table sets out the of country of origin labelling for all food products average water bill for each company in England and traded between EU member states. [284607] Wales for the past 10 years.

Average water and sewerage bill in 2009-10 prices £ 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Water and sewerage companies Anglian 330 328 328 332 335 352 363 381 387 393 Dwr Cymru 345 342 344 338 339 365 377 390 399 404 North West 292 282 285 293 317 325 344 361 369 377 Northumbrian (incl. Essex and Suffolk) Northumbrian 257 252 250 251 275 289 296 302 300 298 Essex and Suffolk 138 138 138 138 152 161 164 170 169 168 Severn Trent 258 257 253 258 263 283 294 297 299 305 South West 404 392 408 406 431 455 484 506 499 489 Southern 307 303 302 305 303 336 349 353 361 370 Thames 246 248 247 246 247 286 291 299 297 295 Wessex 313 306 306 319 332 359 375 395 405 413 Yorkshire (incl. York) 272 271 271 280 288 302 314 319 327 330 Yorkshire 272 272 272 1——————— York 116112112———————

Water only companies Bournemouth and 128 123 122 125 130 144 146 146 142 136 West Hampshire Bristol 131 132 133 133 129 147 149 152 156 157 Cambridge 116 116 113 110 109 121 120 123 116 116 Dee Valley 138 134 130 129 126 131 127 124 130 130 Folkestone and Dover 152 153 160 165 168 174 181 187 188 182 Mid Kent 149 153 156 158 154 168 163 164 163 171 Portsmouth 96 94 93 92 91 91 90 91 92 92 South East 152 156 153 153 154 179 166 173 169 169 South Staffs 111 109 107 106 107 116 120 122 123 123 Sutton and East 149 150 154 150 151 167 169 169 164 161 Surrey Tendring Hundred 170 174 178 186 189 190 183 172 178 176 Three Valleys (incl. 136 137 138 138 141 158 157 160 166 166 North Surrey) Three Valleys 137 138 139 1——————— North Surrey 132 129 132 ——————— 1 Companies merged. Only submitted one principle statement 927W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 928W

Water: Meters by my spokesman on 6 July 2009. A transcript of this is available on the No. 10 website: Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page19941 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is and a copy has been placed in the Library of the House. taking to promote the installation of water meters in newly-built dwellings. [283945]

Huw Irranca-Davies: In general, newly-built houses NORTHERN IRELAND are fitted with water meters. Bloody Sunday Tribunal of Inquiry Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many water Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for meters were installed by water supply companies in Northern Ireland how much the Bloody Sunday homes in Hemel Hempstead constituency in each of inquiry has cost to date. [285189] the last three years. [284559] Mr. Woodward: The cost of the Bloody Sunday Inquiry Huw Irranca-Davies: Ofwat, the economic regulator to the end of May 2009 is £188 million, including legal of the water and sewerage industry, does not hold data costs incurred by the Ministry of Defence. on how many meters are installed in individual constituencies. Domestic Violence: Victim Support Schemes The following figures show how many water meters Three Valleys Water installed in its water supply area in Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the last three years. This includes the constituency of Northern Ireland how many centres for victims of Hemel Hempstead. domestic violence have opened in Northern Ireland in Three Valleys Water the last 12 months. [282287] Number of meters installed (households) Paul Goggins: There are 12 refuges for victims of 2006-07 40,933 domestic violence throughout Northern Ireland. These 2007-08 30,351 are managed by the Women’s Aid Federation for Northern 2008-09 28,247 Ireland and are funded by the Department for Social Development (DSD) through the “Supporting People” initiative. In addition DSD fund the “Sanctuary Scheme” Wessex Flood Defence Committee which provides security measures for women who wish to remain in their current home. Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much While none of these refuges opened in the last 12 months, remuneration the chairman of the Wessex Flood I announced in December 2008 a capital investment of Defence Committee received in each of the last three £350,000 to resource the final phase of refurbishment years; and how much he received in expenses (a) in to the Women’s Resource Centre (The Naomi Centre) total and (b) for overseas visits in each of those years. in Ballymena. This centre will provide services to more [284404] than 2,000 victims and their families every year and was officially opened on 30 June. Huw Irranca-Davies: The following table shows the Government also fund a 24-hour freephone Domestic salary and expenses of the chairman of the Wessex Violence Helpline (managed by Women’s Aid) for all Flood Defence Committee over the last three years. victims of domestic violence. Respect who provide a There have been no claims for overseas visits on behalf phone line for perpetrators wishing to change their of the Environment Agency. behaviour, also receive Government funding for this service. £ Government are also committed to introducing Multi- Salary Expenses Agency Risk Assessment Conferences (MARACs) 2006-07 16,397.00 3,045.48 throughout Northern Ireland by autumn this year. 2007-08 16,823.00 3,485.89 Firearms 2008-09 17,244.00 4,173.20

Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many convictions were PRIME MINISTER secured in Northern Ireland of a person using an illegal firearm in the course of the crime in 2008. [285505] Sir Alan Sugar Paul Goggins: The information is not available in the Mr. Hunt: To ask the Prime Minister on what date format requested as the court databases do not contain Sir Alan Sugar accepted the role of the Government’s background information in relation to offences committed; Enterprise Champion; and on what date he was for instance, it is not possible to specify the number of officially appointed to that position. [285301] convictions where an illegal firearm was used in relation The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the to murder. answer I gave the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman It is possible, however, to provide conviction statistics Baker) on 18 June 2009, Official Report, column 452W. for firearm-related offences as specified by firearms I also refer the hon. Member to the press briefing given legislation, including those that relate to the possession, 929W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 930W hiring, distribution or supply of firearms. In 2006 (the WORK AND PENSIONS latest year for which data are available), there were 56 Calor Gas: Canvey Island such convictions. Data are collated on the principal offence rule; only Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the most serious offence with which an offender is and Pensions when she expects to publish the report on charged is included. the escape of liquefied petroleum gas on the Canvey Island Calor Gas site in October 2008. [285502] Northern Ireland Compensation Agency Jonathan Shaw: The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) will not be publishing a report into its investigation Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State into the release of liquefied petroleum gas at Calor Gas for Northern Ireland when he expects the backlog of Ltd.’s Canvey Island site in October 2008. This investigation outstanding claims to the Compensation Agency in is still ongoing. HSE does not routinely publish incident Northern Ireland to be cleared. [285506] investigation reports but, as previously undertaken, will arrange to brief the hon. Member as soon as this is Paul Goggins: The Agency does not have a backlog of appropriate. claims. The processing of all claims begins as soon as they are received. The Compensation Agency seeks Disability Living Allowance continually to improve its service to applicants by reducing the time taken to process claims, as required by its Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Framework Document. and Pensions what percentage of claims for disability The following table shows the Agency’s progress. living allowance in respect of young people with autism have been awarded in each year since 2001. [284260] New claims Claims in hand at Claims in hand received start of year at end of year Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 8 July 2009]: In October 2008 the set of codes used to record the disabling 2004-05 7,797 23,687 17,861 condition for disability living allowance changed. Primary 2005-06 7,424 17,613 12,841 and Secondary codes replaced codes for Care and Mobility 2006-07 6,317 13,297 10,790 and more fine detail was introduced with respect to 2007-08 5,655 10,814 8,771 disabling condition. Prior to October 2008, there were 2008-09 6,130 7,957 7,378 fewer than 50 categories for disabling condition, but Note: now there are over 500. This information is available for The figures for claims in hand include claims under review or where an appeal has been lodged. statistical analysis from November 2008. However, codes for existing disability living allowance Offensive Weapons claimants were not updated, so the number of cases with new codes is extremely small compared to the total Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for numbers in receipt of disability living allowance. It is, Northern Ireland (1) how many assaults in which a therefore, not yet possible to produce an estimate of the knife was involved were recorded in Northern Ireland total number of people claiming disability living allowance in the last 12 month period for which figures are with a main disabling condition of autism. available; [286000] New Deal Schemes (2) how many people under the age of 18 years were the victims of crime involving a knife in Northern Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Ireland in each of the last five years; [286001] and Pensions what her latest estimate is of the budget (3) how many crimes involving a knife were recorded for phase one of the Flexible New Deal. [266117] in each local authority area in Northern Ireland in each of the last five years. [286002] Jim Knight: Expenditure on the flexible new deal is dependant on both the actual numbers of starts on Paul Goggins: These data are collated by the Police provision, and the success of providers in getting jobseekers Service of Northern Ireland. I have asked the Chief into work. Performance offers are subject to on going Constable to reply directly to the hon. Gentleman, and commercial negotiation. a copy of his letter will be placed in the Library of the Flexible new deal forms part of the support for House. long-term unemployed budget. I refer the hon. Member to the written answer given to her on 16 June 2009, Public Prosecution Service for Northern Ireland: Official Report, column 158W. Equality

Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT for Northern Ireland what the outcome was of the Astley Park screening workshops held recently under the Public Prosecution Service equality scheme in Northern Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Ireland. [285503] Media and Sport on what date the application by Chorley borough council for a grant for modernisation Paul Goggins: That is an operational matter for the work at Astley Park in Chorley was received by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I have asked him to Heritage Lottery Fund; how much funding was (a) reply directly to the hon. Gentleman, and a copy of his applied for and (b) awarded; and on what date the letter will be placed in the Library of the House. grant was awarded. [284556] 931W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 932W

Mr. Simon: Advice from the Heritage Lottery Fund is Barbara Follett [holding answer 8 July 2009]: I replied that it received the application by Chorley borough to the hon. Member on 7 July 2009. council for a grant for modernisation work at Astley Park in December 2004. The monetary value of grant applied for was £2,004,000, and the monetary value of National Skills Academies: Thurrock grant awarded was £2,004,000. The Heritage Lottery Fund awarded the grant to Chorley borough council on 1 April 2005. Chorley borough council received a grant Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for increase of £373,000 from the Heritage Lottery Fund Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he on 27 September 2007, bringing the total grant award to has had with the Secretary or State for Business, £2,377,000. Innovation and Skills on the contribution of the proposed National Skills Academy for Creative and Big Lottery Fund: Campaign for Better Transport Cultural Skills in Thurrock to the London 2012 Olympic events including training and technical support; and if he will make a statement. [282467] Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what funding the Big Lottery Fund has allocated to the Campaign for Better Mr. Simon [holding answer 29 June 2009]: The Secretary Transport; and for what projects such funding was of State for Culture, Media and Sport has had no allocated. [284091] discussions with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills regarding the Creative and Cultural Mr. Simon: The Big Lottery Fund has informed me National Skills Academy (NSA). that it has provided no funding to the Campaign for London Organising Committee for the Olympic and Better Transport. Paralympic Games’ Culture and Ceremonies teams have had informal discussions with the NSA as part of the Digital Broadcasting: Radio organising committee’s initial work on workforce needs for 2012, but no decisions have been made on the Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for academy’s involvement. Culture, Media and Sport how much the Government However, the NSA offers a great opportunity to have allocated to ensuring good digital radio signal engage with Olympic events as a training and technical reception in all areas of the UK in each of the next support venue for the opening, closing and medal three years. [284934] ceremonies. Regional involvement in the development of a cultural Olympic legacy is paramount to raising the Mr. Simon: As set out in the recently published aspirations for young people in the region. Digital Britain White Paper, the Government recognise that building out a Digital Audio Broadcasting (DAB) infrastructure which meets the needs of broadcasters, Tourism: Disabled multiplex operators and listeners, including improving the quality of the signal, will require additional investment. However, the Digital Radio Upgrade programme, alongside Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, the proposals on co-location and licence-renewals, will Media and Sport what steps are being taken to make offer significant cost-savings for commercial broadcasters, tourist attractions more accessible to disabled people. some of which must support investment in improving [284372] coverage. In areas where the BBC’s need to deliver universal Barbara Follett: My Department works closely with access is not matched by the economic realities of the the tourism industry to ensure that there is good access local commercial market, the BBC will need to bear a for disabled people at attractions throughout the United significant portion of the costs. The full cost cannot be Kingdom. As part of the quality assessment scheme, left to the BBC alone. It is our intention that where tourism business in the UK are required to prepare an possible the BBC and national commercial multiplex access statement describing their current services and operator should work together to ensure that any new facilities so that disabled people can decide if they meet transmitters benefit both BBC and commercial multiplexes. their particular needs. Accessibility best practice is now Partnerships between the BBC and commercial local incorporated into the new Visitor Attraction Quality multiplex operators will be even more important at a Assurance Scheme (VAQAS) criteria and its quality local DAB level. guidance booklet. We will work with the BBC, transmission providers In addition the DCMS has set up the Accessible and Ofcom to agree a plan for the extension and Tourism Stakeholders Forum to help to deliver improvement of local DAB coverage, and where the improvements in this area which was a central theme in cost would most appropriately fall. our Tourism Strategy for 2012. VisitEngland has recently published ″Easy Does It″, a guide for setting out how Members: Correspondence tourism businesses can achieve simple, low cost changes to benefit themselves and their disabled customers. Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Most recently DCMS, along with VisitEngland, Culture, Media and Sport when he plans to reply to the VisitScotland, VisitWales, and other public bodies, has letters of 7 May and 15 June 2009 from the hon. supported the launch of Open Britain, a definitive Member for Forest of Dean on the Friends of Kempley guide book and website for people with disabilities and Churches, reference FD3057. [285073] special access requirements. 933W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 934W

JUSTICE (k) 181 to 190, (l) 191 to 200 and (m) over 200mg per 100ml of blood in the last year for which figures are British Constitution: Ministerial Statements available; [284803] Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many drivers have been convicted of (a) Justice pursuant to the Prime Minister’s statement of driving under the influence of alcohol with a level of 10 June 2009, Official Report, columns 795-99, on alcohol in excess of 80mg per 100ml of blood and (b) constitutional renewal, when he will set out further failing to provide a specimen of blood in each year plans to look at broadening the application of freedom since 1980. of information to include additional bodies; and if he will make a statement. [285555] Claire Ward: Available information on the number of findings of guilt at all courts for offences of driving etc Mr. Wills: We will publish our full response to the after consuming alcohol or taking drugs, by offence consultation on designating additional public authorities type, in England and Wales for the years 1994 to 2007 under the Freedom of Information Act through a section (latest available) is given in the table. Data held centrally 5 order by the summer. on the Court Proceedings Database by the Ministry of Justice do not identify the amount by which the prescribed Driving: Convictions limit was exceeded. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Information for the years prior to 1994 can be found Justice (1) how many drivers were convicted of driving on the Home Office Research Development and Statistics while exceeding the blood alcohol limit with levels of website under “Offences relating to motor vehicles, alcohol of (a) 80 to 90, (b) 91 to 100, (c) 101 to 110, England and Wales, Supplementary Tables”. See following (d) 111 to 120, (e) 121 to 130, (f) 131 to 140, (g) 141 link: to 150, (h) 151 to 160, (i) 161 to 170, (j) 171 to 180, http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/motor1.html

Number of findings of guilt for offences of driving etc. after consuming alcohol or taking drugs, by offence type, 1994 to 20071, England and Wales Number of offences Offence type 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000

Unfit to drive through 1,899 1,809 1,865 1,930 1,939 2,005 1,826 drink or drugs (impairment) Driving with alcohol in 73,733 77,115 81,046 84,929 78,799 74,427 71,214 the blood above the prescribed limit Driving and failing to 8,192 8,068 7,712 8,112 7,359 8,091 8,232 provide specimen for analysis (breath, blood or urine) In charge of motor 368 365 376 408 416 415 388 vehicle while unfit through drink or drugs (impairment) In charge of motor 1,670 1,827 1,887 2,120 2,340 2,108 1,938 vehicle with alcohol in the blood above the prescribed limit In charge of motor 666 501 472 489 517 592 741 vehicle and failing to provide specimen for analysis (breath, blood or urine) Failing to provide 3,172 2,821 2,348 2,214 1,746 1,724 1,490 specimen for initial breath test Failing to allow n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a specimens of blood to be subjected to laboratory test Unfit to drive through n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a drink (impairment) Unfit to drive through n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a drugs (impairment) In charge of motor n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a vehicle while unfit through drink (impairment) In charge of motor n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a vehicle while unfit through drugs (impairment) Total 89,700 92,505 95,705 100,202 93,116 89,361 85,829 935W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 936W

Offence type 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Unfit to drive through 1,937 2,129 2,261 1,552 1,093 918 845 drink or drugs (impairment) Driving with alcohol in the 70,091 74,499 77,712 80,383 78,108 78,027 74,885 blood above the prescribed limit Driving and failing to 8,208 8,900 9,185 9,188 9,361 8,991 9,096 provide specimen for analysis (breath, blood or urine) In charge of motor vehicle 404 487 449 457 301 226 213 while unfit through drink or drugs (impairment) In charge of motor vehicle 2,134 2,280 1,886 1,779 1,882 1,760 1,585 with alcohol in the blood above the prescribed limit In charge of motor vehicle 658 891 967 1,070 985 914 921 and failing to provide specimen for analysis (breath, blood or urine) Failing to provide specimen 1,310 1,302 1,240 1,182 932 770 572 for initial breath test Failing to allow specimens n/a n/a 22 5 13 12 12 of blood to be subjected to laboratory test Unfit to drive through n/a n/a 3n/a 348 530 479 473 drink (impairment) Unfit to drive through n/a n/a 3n/a 203 363 414 383 drugs (impairment) In charge of motor vehicle n/a n/a 3n/a 56 120 134 209 while unfit through drink (impairment) In charge of motor vehicle n/a n/a 3n/a15292629 while unfit through drugs (impairment) Total 84,472 90,488 93,702 96,238 93,717 92,671 89,223 n/a = Not available 1 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 2 Authorised under the Road Traffic Act 1988 s.7A as added by the Police Reform Act 2002, s.56 and Transport and Works Act 1992 as added by the Police Reform Act 2002 s.52 which came into force in July 2002. 3 Prior to 2004 data were published covering both drink and drugs offences combined as they could not reliably be distinguished separately. Source: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Unit.

Human Rights Joint Committee Political Parties: Finance Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will bring forward legislative proposals Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to require headquarters of political parties to disclose when he plans to respond to the Ninth Report of the their spending in each constituency; and if he will make Joint Committee on Human Rights of Session 2006-07, a statement. [285227] The Meaning of Public Authority under the Human Rights Act HC 410; for what reasons he has not yet Mr. Wills: The Government have no such plans. responded to the report; and if he will make a The Political Parties, Elections and Referendums statement. [285524] Act 2000 imposes requirements on political parties to keep accounting records showing sums of money received and expended by the party, and to publish annual Mr. Wills: My noble Friend the Baroness Ashton of statements of accounts. As to form and content, the Upholland, then Minister for Human Rights, wrote to 2000 Act indicates that these statements of accounts the hon. Member following the publication of the report should comply with requirements which may be prescribed in question. She explained that the Government could by regulations made by the Electoral Commission. Since not at that point fully address the issues surrounding 2008, the commission has been working with political section 6 of the Human Rights Act until the implications parties to agree standard requirements for statements of of the judgment in YL v. Birmingham city council were accounts. The commission has stated that it will continue known. The Government have since legislated to overturn to discuss the issue with the parties, with the aim of the principal effects of that judgment through section achieving improved transparency while imposing the 145 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008, and are minimum necessary burden on parties and their staff, also committed to consulting further on the scope of many of whom are volunteers. the Human Rights Act. We believe those of the issues The Government believe that any accounting raised in the Joint Committee’s report that remain relevant requirements on parties should take account of both following these developments can best be addressed in the need for transparency and for any requirements to that context. be both reasonable and proportionate. 937W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 938W

Prison Sentences Proportion of time served—young offenders Percentage Proportion of Violence against Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice sentenced served the person Sexual offences Robbery what the average (a) length and (b) proportion of the 2005 53 63 53 sentence served by each offender sentenced for (i) 2006 54 60 53 violence against the person, (ii) sexual offences and (iii) 2007 56 61 55 robbery was served in a category (A) A, (B) B, (C) C and (D) D prison in each of the last 12 years for which Data before 1999 are not available. figures are available. [284181] Data relating to time served in each prison are not held centrally and can not be obtained without exceeding Claire Ward: The average sentence length and proportion cost limits. of time served for all prisoners discharged from determinate These figures have been drawn from administrative sentences, for the three offence groups requested, in the IT systems which, as with any large scale recording years 1999 to 2007 are in the following tables. system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Average sentence length—adults and processing. Months Average sentence Violence against length the person Sexual offences Robbery SCOTLAND 1999 17 39 49 Scottish Devolution Commission 2000 17 40 49 2001 17 43 50 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for 2002 17 45 47 Scotland what (a) financial and (b) other support the 2003 17 45 46 UK Government has made available to support the 2004 17 48 47 work of the Calman Commission. [285582] 2005 16 48 48 2006 15 45 48 Ann McKechin: The UK Government provided around 2007 16 50 48 £500,000 for the commission’s work, which concluded on 15 June 2009 with the publication of the final report. Proportion of time served—adults The report which was widely welcomed across Scotland Percentage was presented jointly to the Scottish Parliament and the Proportion of Violence against sentenced served the person Sexual offences Robbery UK Government as co-sponsors. During the commission’s consideration the UK 1999 57 62 60 Government provided evidence and factual information 2000 57 64 60 to assist the commission with its deliberations. Both the 2001 57 64 61 Scottish Parliament, UK Parliament and the UK 2002 57 64 60 Government also provided resources such as committee 2003 56 65 59 rooms and technical support for some of the commission’s 2004 57 65 61 oral evidence sessions. 2005 57 65 63 As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for 2006 60 65 67 Scotland indicated in his written ministerial statement 2007 62 66 69 to the House on 15 June 2009, Official Report, column Average sentence length—young offenders 5WS, the Government warmly welcome this report. Months Average sentence Violence against length the person Sexual offences Robbery HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION 1999 11 21 23 2000 11 21 23 Parliament: Internet 2001 10 22 21 Mr. Amess: To ask the hon. Member for North 2002 11 21 22 Devon, representing the House of Commons 2003 12 22 23 Commission pursuant to the answer of 11 May 2009, 2004 11 18 23 Official Report, column 497W, on Parliament: internet, 2005 13 29 24 when the new area of the Parliament website focusing 2006 12 24 23 on Parliament’s heritage will be launched; whether it 2007 12 27 22 will include audio files; and if he will make a statement. Proportion of time served—young offenders [285497] Percentage Proportion of Violence against Nick Harvey: The new area of Parliament’s website sentenced served the person Sexual offences Robbery focusing on Parliament’s heritage was launched on 2 July 2009 and can be found at: 1999 55 57 55 www.parliament.uk/livingheritage 2000 55 60 54 Relevant audio content will be added to this area over 2001 55 58 54 the coming weeks either as embedded files or as links to 2002 53 60 53 audio content elsewhere on the Parliament website. For 2003 51 61 51 example a podcast about the suffragettes is currently 2004 52 61 52 being produced and will be published in the near future. 939W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 940W

DEFENCE http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ awareness.htm Aircraft Carriers The report gives details of the proportion of individual meat categories purchased. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Although it is too early to show a trend, the report Defence whether the Invincible class aircraft carriers indicates that the amount of domestically produced can be serviced from HM Naval Base Faslane. [284820] food consumed by Government Departments in England is increasing. The proportion of domestically produced Mr. Quentin Davies: The feasibility of deep maintenance food procured by MOD has gone up from 43 per cent. upkeep work, such as refits and docking periods, being in 2006-07 to 59 per cent. in 2007-08. We expect to carried out to the Invincible Class aircraft carriers at publish a third report at the end of 2009. HM Naval Base Clyde was considered as part of the Naval Base Review. It was assessed that as the berths at Armed Forces: Housing Faslane were designed to accommodate submarines further work would be required to make them suitable Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for to accommodate the heavier aircraft carriers. In addition, Defence what the average cost is of fitting a kitchen in there are insufficient waterfront facilities, such as for a service family accommodation unit under his equipment storage and ship’s company living Department’s upgrade programme. [284684] accommodation, available to allow deep maintenance work to be carried out there. However, other maintenance Mr. Kevan Jones: It is not possible to provide a work such as that carried out onboard the ship by its meaningful estimate of the average cost of installing a company and which does not require the vessel to be kitchen in a service family accommodation property, as berthed for a significant period of time, can be carried the cost will depend on a number of variables. For out at the naval base. example, not only does the size of kitchen and amount of work required vary from property to property (plumbing, Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for wiring, plastering, tiling, etc), but the cost will be dependent Defence how many of the planned Queen Elizabeth on the number of properties included in a programme class aircraft carriers will be based at HM Naval Base on any given site. Faslane. [284821] Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Quentin Davies: Neither of the two aircraft carriers Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member in the Queen Elizabeth Class will be base ported at Her for Dunfermline and West Fife (Willie Rennie) of 7 Majesty’s Naval Base (HMNB) Clyde. As the then May 2009, Official Report, column 380W, on armed Minister for Armed Forces, the right hon. Member for forces: housing, for which geographical area each East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr. Ingram) grading board is responsible. [284685] announced on 2 July 2002, Official Report, column Mr. Kevan Jones: Grading boards are convened at 232W, both aircraft carriers are to be based at HMNB brigade or unit level rather than by geographical area Portsmouth. and therefore the information is not held in the format Armed Forces: Food requested and could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for how much (a) chicken, (b) beef, (c) lamb and (d) Defence how many and what percentage of units of pork supplied to the British armed forces was sourced (a) single living accommodation and (b) service from within the British Isles in the latest period for family accommodation at each location in Scotland are which information is available. [284818] at each grade. [284819]

Mr. Quentin Davies: A second report on the proportion Mr. Kevan Jones: At each of the following locations of domestically produced food used by Government in Scotland, as at December 2008 single living Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons accommodation (SLA) was at the following grade, an under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and assessment of the condition of both the accommodation HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, and ‘scale’ (as defined in Joint Service Publication 315 covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. which is available to view on the Defence Estates website: These two reports covering the years 2006-08 can be http://www.defence-estates.mod.uk/publications/jsp/jsp315/ found at the following link: volumel/

Total SLA bed- spaces at each Grade 1 Grade 2 Grade 3 Grade 4 location Location No. % No. % No. % No. %

Craigiehall, Edinburgh — — — 70 100 70

Dreghorn Barracks, Edinburgh — — 420 100 — 420

HMS Neptune, Faslane 1,565 85 — 281 15 — 1,846

Fort George, Inverness — 19 4 122 26 329 70 470 941W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 942W

Total SLA bed- spaces at each Grade 1 Grade 2 Grade 3 Grade 4 location Location No. % No. % No. % No. %

Glencorse Barracks, Milton Bridge, 418 100 — — — 418 Penicuik RAF Kinloss 224 47 248 53 — — 472 RAF Leuchars — 141 17 331 41 345 42 817 RAF Lossiemouth 95 11 706 81 66 8 — 867 Redford Barracks, Edinburgh 58 11 113 21 282 53 83 15 536 RM Condor 83 9 300 32 566 59 — 949 HMS Caledonia, Rosyth — — 28 6 416 94 444 The Castle, Edinburgh — — — 92 100 92 Total SLA bed-spaces at each grade 2,443 33 1,527 21 2,096 28 1,335 18 7,401

Details of service family accommodation (SFA) cannot be provided on the same basis as for SLA. However, SFA properties in each of the Department’s housing areas in Scotland are at the following Standard for Condition:

S1fC S2fC S3fC S4fC Total SFA properties in each area Housing area No. % No. % No. % No. %

Scotland East (inc. RM Condor, 1,364 98 32 2 — — —- — 1,396 Edinburgh, RAF Leuchars) Scotland West (inc. Glasgow, 66496264———— 690 Paisley, RN Faslane) Scotland North (inc. RAF 1,092 96 44 4 5 1— — — 1,141 Lossiemouth, RAF Kinloss, Inverness) Total SFA properties at each 3,120 97 102 3 5 1— — — 3,227 standard 1 Less than 1 per cent.

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Defence Council has met Defence how many reported break-ins to service once, on 18 October 2006. The Defence Ministerial personnel accommodation there have been in Scotland Committee was established in 2008 and has met on the in each year since 2004. [285565] following dates: 20 May 2008, 25 June 2008, 17 September 2008 ,13 November 2008, 17 December 2008, 4 March Mr. Kevan Jones: The information requested is not 2009 and 3 June 2009. This information is available on held centrally in the format requested and could be the MOD website found at the following link: provided only at disproportionate cost. http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/ WhatWeDo/DefenceManagement/ Army: Uniforms Defence: Procurement Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent assessment he has made of progress in Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State respect of the cut and sew contract for army uniforms; for Defence what recent assessment he has made of the and if he will make a statement. [284643] prospects for implementation of the European Defence Agency code of conduct on offsets; and if he will make Mr. Quentin Davies: The cut and sew contract tendering a statement. [285009] process began in April 2009, with nearly 50 companies expressing interest. A pre-qualification exercise is currently Mr. Quentin Davies: The European Defence Agency under way and the contract is scheduled to be awarded (EDA) code of conduct on offsets came into effect on later this year. 1 July 2009. A reporting and monitoring system, which also became operational on 1 July 2009, will be used to manage the practical implementation of the code, covering Defence Council: Defence Ministerial Council offset agreements signed from this date onwards. 25 of the 26 EDA participating member states have subscribed Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to the code of conduct on offsets and its reporting how many times the (a) Defence Council and (b) arrangements. In addition, Norway has subscribed to Defence Ministerial Committee has met in the last the code of conduct under its administrative arrangement three years. [284517] with the EDA. 943W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 944W

Demos RAF Lyneham

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence whether his Department has any contracts whether a sale site of RAF Lyneham would be subject with the think-tank Demos. [279511] to the Crichel Down rules. [285416]

Mr. Kevan Jones: Information held centrally indicates Mr. Kevan Jones: RAF Lyneham was acquired under that the Ministry of Defence has no current contracts 61 conveyances, between the years 1940 and 1987, and with the think tank Demos. the whole site will be subject to the Crichel Down Rules. If the site is declared surplus, Defence Estates will Departmental Databases consider the Crichel Down position to determine whether, in certain circumstances, any land is to be offered back Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for to former owners or their successors in title. This procedure Defence what information databases his Department will have to be finalised prior to any marketing of the (a) maintain and (b) uses which do not contain site. personal information. [284396] Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally what estimate Defence Estates have made of the and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. monetary value of a vacated RAF Lyneham. [285417]

Military Aircraft Mr. Kevan Jones: It is not our practice to make public any estimate of the value of disposal sites as to do so Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence could prejudice bids for the site. However, Defence how many operational sorties have been flown by each Estates sells its surplus land and property in accordance aircraft type deployed to (a) Iraq, (b) Afghanistan with Treasury Guidelines (Managing Public Money) and (c) other locations in each year since 2003. which requires us to get the best price reasonably obtainable [284537] (i.e. market value).

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The information requested is not Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence held centrally and could be provided only at what estimate he has made of the cost of disproportionate cost. decontaminating the site of RAF Lyneham. [285418]

Military Decorations: Crosby Mr. Kevan Jones: No estimate of the cost of decontaminating RAF Lyneham has yet been made. A Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State Land Quality Assessment will only be commissioned for Defence how many families in Crosby constituency once the site has been formally declared surplus. he estimates will receive the Elizabeth Cross in 2009. [284947] OLYMPICS Mr. Kevan Jones: It is estimated that the next of kin (NOK) of some 8,000 armed forces personnel, who Departmental Billing have died on operations, or as a result of an act of terrorism, from 1 January 1948 to date, will be eligible Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister for the Olympics how to receive the Elizabeth Cross and Memorial Scroll. The manydaysonaverage(a) her Office and (b) the eligibility criteria and how to apply were outlined by the Government Olympic Executive has taken to pay Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the invoices from suppliers in each month since November Member for Coventry, North-East (Mr. Ainsworth) in 2008. [283448] his written ministerial statement of 1 July 2009, Official Report, columns 18-21WS. It is not possible for the Tessa Jowell [holding answer 2 July 2009]: Data on Ministry of Defence (MOD) to determine how many the time taken to pay invoices is recorded in terms of NOK will actually apply, when they may choose to the proportions paid within 10 days and 30 days. The apply and where they live. Therefore it is not possible to figures for the Government Olympic Executive for identify how many families in the Crosby constituency November 2008 to May 2009 (latest available) are given will receive the Elizabeth Cross in 2009. in the following table.

Total number of Number paid within Number paid within invoices 30 days Percentage 10 days Percentage

November20085554984378 December 2008 63 63 100 54 86 January 2009 63 63 100 55 87 February 2009 54 54 100 53 98 March 2009 71 71 100 68 96 April 2009 81 80 99 73 90 May 2009 56 56 100 54 96 945W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 946W

Invoices submitted to my Office as Minister for the Olympic Games 2012: Contracts Olympics are processed by the Government Olympic Executive and are, therefore, included in the figures Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister for the Olympics given here. whether the performance of subcontractors not The Executive complies with the Government’s policy directly contracted by the Olympic Delivery Authority of paying its suppliers as soon as possible, and from 1 is monitored against the balanced scorecard criteria for December 2008, aims to achieve all payments within 10 procurement. [283903] days. Tessa Jowell: Subcontractor performance is managed and monitored by the main contractors to the ODA. The ODA requires main contractors to apply good Olympic Games 2012: Ashford Kent procurement practice as part of a rigorous supply chain management; however, the precise methods of Damian Green: To ask the Minister for the Olympics subcontractor performance management are for main what her latest assessment is of the legacy for Ashford contractors to both define and implement. constituency for the London 2012 Olympics Games; and if she will make a statement. [283000] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Tessa Jowell: I was delighted to award Kent county Afghanistan: Drugs council (KCC) a Beacon Award for its work on Olympic and Paralympic legacy earlier this year. This award Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for recognised the council’s clear vision and determined Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is approach to games legacy and its programme of bespoke on poppy cultivation in Afghanistan; and if he will 2012 projects across the county, and Ashford is part of make a statement. [284144] the supporting county partnership. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK is supporting the Afghan The Kent Co-ordinating Group for the 2012 games, Government in the implementation of its national drug on which Ashford borough council is represented, plays control strategy.The strategy is a comprehensive long-term a key role in this partnership and aims to derive the approach towards countering narcotics. It provides ‘carrots’, maximum benefits from the games for the county. It has including the promotion and support for alternative set up nine task groups to co-ordinate action across livelihoods and the building of Afghan institutions and Kent on: arts; communications and media; economic ‘sticks’ through law enforcement actions such as targeted development and regeneration; schools and young people; poppy eradication and interdiction. sport; tourism; transport; and volunteering. Aung San Suu Kyi Kent has already made good progress with its Olympic and Paralympic legacy in these areas through initiatives Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State such as the Kent School Games which in 2008 had for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will hold 30,000 participants from over 500 schools including discussions with the UN Secretary-General on his those in Ashford. In terms of Paralympic legacy, KCC recent visit to Burma, with particular reference to the has increased its disability sport associate officers network continued detention of Aung San Suu Kyi. [285504] to cover 15 of the 19 summer Paralympics sports and two of the four winter sports. Kent also has the highest Mr. Ivan Lewis: Both my right hon. Friends the Prime sign up in the South East (SE) of England for the Get Minister and the Foreign Secretary discuss Burma regularly Set School Programme and businesses registered for with the UN Secretary-General. The Prime Minister Competefor, the London 2012 brokerage system. Steps most recently spoke to Ban Ki-Moon on 21 June 2009, have also been taken to raise awareness of the importance prior to his visit to Burma and they may speak again at of tourism, leisure and hospitality businesses to the the G8 summit. The Foreign Secretary is seeking to Kent economy in the lead up to the games through identify an early opportunity to speak to the UN Secretary- initiatives such as the third successful ‘Kent’s Big Day General about the visit, and the continued detention of Out’ event to be held each year in the run up to the Aung San Suu Kyi. games. This year’s event held on 28 March 2009 saw over 17,000 vouchers offered to participants for free BBC External Services entry to 143 venues across the county including in Ashford. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much It is also pleasing to see that there are a broad range funding the BBC World Service has received from his of initiatives and programmes across the SE associated Department through grant in aid in each of the last with building a legacy from the games. The SE currently three years. [284459] has nine projects that have been awarded the Inspire Mark of which four are in Kent. There were around 70 Chris Bryant: The BBC World Service has received events held in the SE during Open Weekend which the following grant in aid funding over the last three launched the Cultural Olympiad in September 2008, of years: which, around 10 were in Kent. To celebrate London officially becoming host to the 2012 games handover £ million events were held in the SE on 24 August 2008. Ashford 2008-09 265 played a significant role in these celebrations hosting a 2007-08 255 Free Swim day to mark the raising of the Olympic 2006-07 239.5 Handover Flag. 947W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 948W

Burma Departmental Manpower

Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when his Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Department will next review UK economic sanctions members of his Department’s staff deployed in each against Burma; and if he will make a statement. region of Iraq (a) have been trained in each year since [285344] 2003 and (b) are being trained in each local Iraqi language. [283552] Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK pursues sanctions against the Burmese regime as part of a wider EU Common Chris Bryant: Since 2004, 58 Foreign and Commonwealth Position. Sanctions are renewed annually in April, but Office (FCO) staff have studied Modern Standard Arabic the EU has repeatedly made clear its readiness to review, and one Sorani Kurdish before being deployed in Iraq. amend or reinforce existing sanctions on the basis of Currently mere are eight staff studying Modern Standard developments on the ground. On 19 June 2009, EU Arabic who are due to be deployed to Iraq later this leaders made clear that the EU would respond to a year or next. Since 2004, 323 FCO civil servants have failure to release Aung San Suu Kyi with additional been deployed to Iraq. There are currently 35 staff targeted measures. there. We only started to hold management information about language skills centrally in 2004. Our system Departmental Finance records those who have passed exams on completion of language courses funded by the FCO, so may not include those who did not take an examination, those Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for whose acquisition of the language was not the result of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he class-based instruction, or whose studies were not funded has made of the proportion of UK gross domestic by the FCO. product (a) allocated to and (b) spent by his Department in (i) 1997-98 and (ii) the most recent Diplomatic Missions financial year for which figures are available. [284025] Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Chris Bryant [holding answer 3 July 2009]: The 1997-98 for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to appropriation accounts for the Foreign and Commonwealth the written ministerial statement of 18 June 2009, Office (FCO) show £2,924,205,000 as the net supply Official Report, column 25WS, on diplomatic missions, grant, which is the total of cash then voted by Parliament, if he will place in the Library a copy of the letter on of which £2,871,037,000 was spent. Against a money outstanding business rate bills sent to diplomatic gross domestic product (GDP) of £843,145,000,000 for missions on 25 March 2009. [283915] 1997-98, the FCO parliamentary supply figure represents 0.347 per cent. of GDP and the corresponding spend Chris Bryant: Yes. A copy of the letter will be placed represents 0.341 per cent. in the Library. However, it should be noted that the appropriation accounts for 1997-98 include £1.8 billion of supply and Embassy Closures expenditure for what is now the Department for International Development. This is the largest of the Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for various machinery of government and public expenditure Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to measurement changes that occurred between 1997-98 the Answer to the hon. Member for Bournemouth, and 2008-09 which make comparisons of spending figures East of 6 February 2007, Official Report, column between the two financial years difficult. 821W, on embassy closures, which (a) UK High The 2008-09 resource accounts for the Foreign and Commissions and Embassies and (b) other UK Commonwealth Office show a net cash requirement of diplomatic posts have closed in each year since 2007. £2,171,707,000, which is the total amount of cash voted [284024] by Parliament, of which £2,072,002,000 was spent. Against a money GDP of £1,432,148,000,000 for 2008-09, the Chris Bryant [holding answer 3 July 2009]: Since Foreign and Commonwealth office parliamentary supply 2007, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) figure represents 0.152 per cent. of GDP and the has closed three high commission offices in Kingstown, corresponding spend represents 0.145 per cent. St. Vincent and the Grenadines (in 2007); St. John’s, Antigua and St. George’s, Grenada (both in 2008). Our high commissioner in Barbados remains accredited to Departmental Internet all three countries. The FCO has also closed its consulate in Nagoya, Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Japan (in 2007) and its trade office in Aleppo, Syria Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when his (also 2007). The British Trade and Cultural Office in Department plans to update its web browsers from Taipei closed its Southern Taiwan office in Kaohsiung Internet Explorer 6. [285015] in April 2009. During the same period, the FCO has opened embassy Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office offices in Goma, Democratic Republic of Congo; Juba, has already started the process of updating its web Sudan; and a British Interests Section in Antananarivo, browsers from Internet Explorer 6. Madagascar. 949W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 950W

The FCO continuously reviews the deployment of its with officials attending a June meeting in Ottawa, which resources and aligns them flexibly in line with UK followed-up the 13 February 2009 London conference interests to the benefit of the British taxpayer. on tackling arms smuggling into Gaza.

Iran Iran: Elections Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign received on terrorist organisations alleged to have been and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has (a) funded and (b) supported by the Government of received on the number of Iranian Members of Parliament who boycotted the election victory party of Iran; and if he will make a statement. [285474] President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad; and if he will make Mr. Ivan Lewis: Due to the sensitive nature of the a statement. [285557] reporting concerned, we are unable to comment on this matter in detail. Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are aware of several unconfirmed However, we have long had serious concerns about reports that many Iranian MPs did not attend President the support that Iran provides in the form of funding, Ahmadinejad’s election victory party; however we have training and arms supplies that are undermining peace not seen any credible reports concerning numbers nor in the Middle East through violence. Such support is why they did not attend. unacceptable and only serves to undermine regional security. We hope that Iran will instead give political Israel and diplomatic support to the Governments of Iraq, Afghanistan and the Palestinian Authority in their attempts Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign to build institutions and improve security. and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with the government of Israel about freedom Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of worship for all faiths in Jerusalem; and if he will and Commonwealth Affairs what recent make a statement. [285543] representations he has made to the government of Iran about their alleged (a) arming and (b) funding of Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK attaches great importance to Hamas; and if he will make a statement. [285483] guaranteeing access to Jerusalem and freedom of worship there for those of all faiths. The UK continues to Mr. Ivan Lewis: Our ambassador in Tehran raised the support a two-state solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict, issue of Iranian support for Hamas at a meeting at the with Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and a new Iranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs on 12 January Palestinian state and guaranteed freedom of worship 2009. Our embassy also translated my right hon. Friend for all. the Foreign Secretary’s Statement on Gaza, 12 January 2009, Official Report, column 21, into Farsi, circulated Middle East: Armed Conflict it to journalists and placed it on the Embassy’s Farsi language website. Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The UK would like to see Iran making a positive and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he (a) has contribution to creating a secure, stable and prosperous taken and (b) plans to take during the next 12 months middle east. But its current behaviour is a cause for at the United Nations to seek to prevent (i) weapons serious concern for us and others. Iran needs to work and (ii) funds from the Government of Iran being sent with the international community and its regional to terrorist groups in (A) Afghanistan, (B) Iraq, (C) neighbours to restore confident in its intentions. Gaza and (D) Lebanon; and if he will make a Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign statement. [285475] and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he (a) has taken and (b) plans to take during the next 12 months Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have no plans to take specific at the United Nations about the alleged (i) arming and actions at the UN at this time. However, the UK led the (ii) funding of Hamas by Iran; and if he will make a way at the UN to achieve UN Security Council Resolution 1860 which makes clear the need to combat the smuggling statement. [285484] of weapons through the tunnels into Gaza. We continue Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have longstanding serious concerns to push for full implementation of this resolution. about the support that Iran provides in the form of We have serious concerns about Iranian support for funding, training and arms supplies to groups which are Hezbollah. Iran provides Hezbollah with significant undermining peace in the middle east through violence, financial resources, military equipment and training. including Hamas. Such support is unacceptable and Arms supplies to Hezbollah are contrary to the arms only serves to undermine regional security. We regularly embargo established by UN Security Council Resolution call on Iran to play a constructive role towards peace in 1701. the middle east, including through giving political and We have long-standing concerns about the support diplomatic support to the Palestinian authority in its that Iran provides in the form of funding, arms and attempts to build institutions and improve security. training to Palestinian Rejectionist Groups, including The UK-led UN Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) Hamas. These groups undermine peace in the Middle 1860 of 8 January 2009 is clear in its call to prevent the East through violence. We hope that Iran will instead illicit trafficking of arms into Gaza. We continue to give political and diplomatic support to the Palestinian push for the full implementation of UNSCR 1860. The Authority in its attempts to build institutions and improve UK is at the forefront of counter-smuggling efforts, security. 951W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 952W

We understand that members of al-Qaeda and affiliated Our high commission in Islamabad works closely groups have used, and possibly continue to use, Iran as with the EU Special Representative and Human Rights a transit route for arms smuggling. We have urged Iran Working Group of the EU member states in Pakistan to to act against this and co-operate fully with the international promote women’s rights in Pakistan. With the EU, we community against terrorism, as required by UN Security have issued biannual demarches calling on the Government Council Resolution 1373. of Pakistan to review discriminatory legislation and The UK would like to see Iran making a positive fully implement its obligations under the Convention contribution to creating a secure, stable and prosperous on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women Middle East, free from violence. But its current behaviour (CEDAW). is a cause for serious concern for us and others. Iran Our high commission also supports programme and needs to work with the international community and its project work designed to strengthen the capacity of civil regional neighbours to restore confidence in its intentions. society to promote women’s rights, help the Government of Pakistan achieve the Millennium Development Goals North Korea: Diplomatic Service and take forward the recommendations made by the EU Election Observation Mission after Pakistan’s elections in February 2008. Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many North Spirit of Humanity: British Nationality Korean nationals were engaged at the British Embassy in Pyongyang in each of the last 10 years; what level of Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for security clearance such employees must pass before Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what engagement; and whether his Department has carried representations he has made to the Israeli Government out any investigations into activities of such staff on the health of the British nationals on the vessel which are incompatible with their terms and conditions Spirit of Humanity. [285294] of employment in that period. [285280] Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Israeli navy took control of the Mr. Ivan Lewis: An average of six North Korean vessel Spirit of Humanity and diverted it to Ashdod nationals have worked as support staff at our embassy port in Israel, where all those on board, including six in Pyongyang every year since it opened in 2001. They British nationals, were handed over to Israeli immigration are not employed directly by the embassy, but are officials. British consular officials had good access to seconded from the General Services Bureau, a department the British detainees and confirmed they were all treated of the North Korean government. Consequently, they well. All six were deported and arrived in the UK on are not security cleared and do not work with, or have 6 July 2009. access to, any sensitive information. When my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary spoke to his Israeli counterpart, Avigdor Lieberman, on Overseas Missions 1 July 2009, he raised the issue with him and asked for clarification of whether the Spirit of Humanity had Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign been intercepted in international waters. and Commonwealth Affairs how much each British mission overseas owes in parking fines to the Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities in each country. [284614] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British nationals from the Gaza aid vessel, Spirit of Humanity Chris Bryant [holding answer 7 July 2009]: This have been detained by Israeli authorities; and if he will information is not held centrally and to provide it make a statement. [285295] would incur disproportionate cost. Mr. Ivan Lewis: I can confirm the Israeli navy boarded the vessel Spirit of Humanity on 30 June 2009. The Pakistan: Females Israeli navy took control of the vessel and diverted it to Ashdod port in Israel, where all those on board, including Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State six British nationals, were handed over to Israeli immigration for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent officials. All six were deported and arrived in the UK on discussions he has had with his Pakistani counterpart 6 July 2009. on the sexual abuse of women in Pakistan. [284980] When my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary spoke to his Israeli counterpart, Avigdor Lieberman, on Mr. Ivan Lewis: My hon. Friend, the former 1 July 2009, he raised the issue with him and asked for Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign clarification of whether the Spirit of Humanity was and Commonwealth Affairs, Gillian Merron, visited intercepted in international waters. Pakistan in February 2009 and met Sherry Rehman, Pakistan’s former Minister for Women.She raised concerns Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for about violence against women in the face of growing Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what violent extremism in Pakistan and also expressed UK representations he has made to the Israeli government support to help the Government of Pakistan counter on the legal status of the British nationals on the Gaza the impact of violent extremism on women’s rights. aid vessel, Spirit of Humanity. [285296] Additionally, she stressed the need to take forward the recommendations made by the EU Election Observation Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Mission in 2008 to promote women’s participation in Secretary spoke to his Israeli counterpart, Avigdor Pakistan’s parliament and public life. Lieberman, on 1 July 2009. He raised the issue with him 953W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 954W and asked for clarification of whether the Spirit of Mr. Ian Austin: A table setting out the housing revenue Humanity was intercepted in international waters. We account expenditure allowances and capital allocations will continue to press the Israeli Government for that the Department has provided to local authorities in clarification. each of the last five years, has been placed in the Libraries of the House. All funds were allocated for the Terrorism: Finance repairs, maintenance and upkeep of properties. Council Housing: Property Transfer Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Answer to the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre of Communities and Local Government how much his 26 June 2009, Official Report, column 1154W, on Department has allocated to redeem the housing debt overseas aid: terrorism, what the arrangements are for of local authorities which have transferred their council scrutiny of the expenditure of the sum allocated to his housing to housing associations in (a) 2009-10 and (b) Department’s Counter-Terrorism and Radicalisation each of the next three years; and what arrangements Programme; and what categories of expenditure have have been made with the Scottish Executive to redeem been established for the programme. [285278] such debts in respect of local authorities in Scotland. Mr. Ivan Lewis: To measure the impact of the Foreign [284932] and Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) counter radicalisation Mr. Ian Austin: The Department has an annual voted work overseas, the FCO has developed a system with provision of £616 million for overhanging debt payments my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s delivery unit which is adjusted as each year unfolds. The amount of and the National Audit Office. All proposals submitted debt the Department has paid to the Public Works to the FCO’s Counter Terrorism Radicalisation Programme Loans Boards in respect of completed housing stock for funding undergo a rigorous assessment process and transfers so far this financial year is £126,699,339.51, are monitored closely by our diplomatic missions overseas and expects to make a further payment of approximately and by external assessors to ensure they deliver good £149 million for other transfers due to complete by value for money. 31 March 2010. For 2010-11 financial year the Department The categories of expenditure for the programme is forecasting debt payments in the region of £250 million. cover the four CONTEST counter terrorism strategy Figures for subsequent years are not available. pillars: Protect, Prepare, Pursue and Prevent. The Department is not responsible for any arrangements for overhanging debt in respect of local authorities in Scotland as this responsibility is devolved to the Scottish Executive. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Council Housing: Rents Community Development Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether primary Communities and Local Government what the legislation will be required to give effect to his proposal administrative cost of the Communitybuilders to allow local authorities to retain rent receipts from programme has been to date. [284921] new-build council houses. [284798]

Mr. Malik: Communities and Local Government Mr. Ian Austin: Section 313 of the Housing and and the Office of the Third Sector have spent approximately Regeneration Act 2008 inserted a new section 80B into £244,520 on the administration of the Communitybuilders the Local Government and Housing Act 1989, which programme, excluding staff costs. This figure consists permits the Secretary of State to enter into agreements of £24,520 for the branding of the programme, £60,000 with local authorities to hold certain properties outside for promotion at a series of regional road shows and the HRA subsidy system. This measure enables authorities approximately £160,000 for specialist procurement advice. to retain rent receipts from excluded properties. Staff costs for the administration of the programme Council Housing: Sales between January 2008 and June 2009 were approximately £119,000 for Communities and Local Government and Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for £16,800 for the Office of the Third Sector. Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of allowing Council Housing: Finance local authorities to retain capital receipts from (a) Right to Buy and (b) other housing sales in 2010-11. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for [284122] Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Regent’s Park and Mr. Ian Austin: The outcome of the review of council Kensington North of 2 June 2009, Official Report, housing finance announced on 30 June 2009 included column 456W, on housing: City of Westminster, what proposals to allow authorities to retain their housing funding his Department has provided to each local receipts. Further details on this proposal, including authority for housing in each of the last five years; possible implementation dates and the effect on the from what budgets such funding was drawn; and for Exchequer, will be given in the forthcoming consultation what purposes such funding was allocated. [281334] paper. 955W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 956W

Council Housing: Standards John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for on 8 July 2009, Official Report, column 902W. Communities and Local Government what estimate he Energy Performance Certificates: Fees and Charges has made of the proportion of council houses in each local authority which will meet the Decent Homes standard by 2010; and what steps he plans to take to Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for assist local authorities to maintain that standard after Communities and Local Government when he plans 2010. [284760] next to review the fees charged for adding an entry to the register of energy display certificates. [284473] Mr. Ian Austin: The following table provides information as reported by local authorities in 2008 on dwellings John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the reply that meet the Decent Homes standard. In his written given to him by my right hon. Friend the Member for statement on 30 June 2009, Official Report, column Derby, South (Margaret Beckett) on 19 May 2009, 7WS, my hon. Friend, the Minister for Housing stated Official Report, column 1342W. that our aim in setting up the self financing system for Homes and Communities Agency council housing is to ensure that it delivers the investment needed to sustain and maintain decency. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Council Housing: Stroud Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 14 May 2009, Official Report, column Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for 1001W, on Homes and Communities Agency: Communities and Local Government what recent expenditure, if he will place in the Library a copy of discussions the Government Office for the South West the Homes and Communities Agency’s (a) brand has had with Stroud District Council on transfer of its induction flyer for staff, (b) brand guidelines and (c) housing stock; whether the Government Office stationery design guidance. [284482] requested those discussions; what proposals the Government Office made to the council about stock John Healey: I have placed in the House Library a transfer in those discussions; and if he will make a copy of the Homes and Communities Agency brand statement. [284979] induction flyer for staff and brand guidelines. The statutory design guidance was a significant piece of Mr. Ian Austin: There have been no recent discussions work undertaken to develop a set of templates for about transfer of its housing stock. printed items including letterheads, compliment slips and business cards for the HCA and is therefore not Council Tax available as a document.

Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing Revenue Accounts Communities and Local Government which local authorities allow (a) an exemption from payment of Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for council tax on a property for six months after probate Communities and Local Government which local has been granted and (b) an exemption from or authorities have a deficit on their housing revenue discount on payment of council tax on a property for account. [283629] six months or more following a bereavement; and what exemptions or discounts apply in each case. [285508] Mr. Ian Austin: Local authorities have a statutory duty to prevent a debit balance on their housing revenue Ms Rosie Winterton: Under Class F of the Council account. Tax (Exempt Dwellings) Order 1992, dwellings left empty LB Lambeth informed the Department that they by the death of the owner or tenant are exempt from ended the last financial year with a deficit on their council tax from the date of death until up to six housing revenue account and are taking remedial action months after the date of a grant of probate or letters of this year. No other local authorities have currently administration have been made. Local authorities have reported a deficit. no discretion about granting this exemption. Where a dwelling is not left empty by the bereavement, Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for the normal rules for council tax would continue to Communities and Local Government pursuant to the apply to the surviving occupier(s). Local authorities written ministerial statement of 30 June 2009, Official have a general power under section 13A of the Local Report, columns 7-10WS, on housing, whether the Government Finance Act 1992 to grant discretionary proposed changes to housing revenue accounts will discounts. We know of no authority which has used require changes to primary legislation. [284910] that power to grant discounts on the occasion of a bereavement. Mr. Ian Austin: We believe that the changes proposed in my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing’s Eco-Towns statement will require primary legislation. This is because the provisions relating to the housing revenue account Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for (“HRA”) and HRA subsidy contained in part VI of the Communities and Local Government what timetable Local Government and Housing Act 1989 will not be has been set for the 10 planned eco-towns to be wide enough to provide for the proposals set out in the constructed. [284568] statement. Section 80B of the Housing Act 1985, inserted 957W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 958W by section 313 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, have applied for assistance to (i) purchase a home enables the Secretary of State and a local authority to under the New Build HomeBuy scheme and (ii) rent a agree that specified houses owned by the authority will home under the intermediate rent scheme in each not be subject to the HRA subsidy provisions. However, month since 2006. [284427] the provision only allows for individually negotiated terms agreed individually by the authority. This cannot John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the Answer I provide for the changes proposed in the ministerial gave the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) on statement. 2July,Official Report, column 369W. We cannot be certain of what will be required until the outcome of the consultation exercise is known. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what plans he Housing: Finance has to commission evaluations of the performance of each of his Department’s HomeBuy schemes; [284474] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what recent assessment he has made of the Communities and Local Government how much of the effectiveness of the operation of the (a) HomeBuy £1.5 billion expenditure on housing announced on Direct, (b) OwnHome, (c) OpenMarket HomeBuy, pages 37 and 38 of Building Britain’s Future, Cm. (d) the First-Time Buyers’ Initiative, (e) MyChoice 7654, will be (a) new money, (b) money reallocated HomeBuy, (f) New Build HomeBuy, (g) Social from other budgets and (c) expenditure brought HomeBuy and (h) Rent to HomeBuy scheme. [284499] forward from future years. [284497] John Healey: The HCA keeps the Affordable Housing John Healey: The £1.5 billion for the Housing Pledge Programme under review and makes regular reports to is additional expenditure on new affordable housing the Department. and related housing market provision as set out in ‘Building Britain’s Future’. It is funded through Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for contributions from other Government Departments and Communities and Local Government what discussions reprioritisation of Communities and Local Government the Homes and Communities Agency has had with (CLG) programmes. each bank in which the Government has a shareholding on providing mortgage finance for (a) Housing: Low Incomes HomeBuy Direct, (b) OwnHome, (c) OpenMarket HomeBuy, (d) the First time Buyers’ Initiative, (e) Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for MyChoice HomeBuy, (f) New Build HomeBuy, (g) Communities and Local Government how many Social HomeBuy and (h) Rent to HomeBuy. [284475] properties were sold under the (a) HomeBuy Direct, (b) OwnHome, (c) OpenMarket HomeBuy, (d) John Healey: The Department and the Homes and First-time Buyers Initiative, (e) MyChoice HomeBuy, Communities Agency are working with all major mortgage (f) New Build HomeBuy, (g) Social HomeBuy and lenders, both directly and through the Council of Mortgage (h) Rent to HomeBuy scheme in May 2009; and how Lenders and the Building Societies Association, in order many had been sold under each such scheme at the to encourage increased availability of mortgages for latest date for which figures are available. [283428] shared ownership purchasers. John Healey: The following table shows the number of completions under each HomeBuy scheme for 2008-09: Infrastructure Planning Commission: Finance

Scheme Number Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much the HomeBuy Direct 0 Infrastructure Planning Commission has budgeted for OwnHome 800 legal costs in its first full year of operation. [284441] OpenMarket HomeBuy 6,120 First-time Buyers Initiative 1,030 John Healey: The IPC budget for its first full year will MyChoice HomeBuy 3,120 be agreed by winter 2009. New Build HomeBuy 10,650 Social HomeBuy 100 Local Government: Bank Services Rent to HomeBuy 1,170 Source: Homes and Communities Agency (HCA). Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for The figures show the number of affordable housing Communities and Local Government pursuant to the completions, not the number of sales. The figures have answer of 16 June 2009, Official Report, column 199W, been rounded to the nearest 10. on Chorley borough council: bank services, what steps Figures showing the number of affordable homes he has taken to assist local authorities in the recovery completions in May 2009 by type of scheme are not of deposits held by them in Icelandic banks. [284589] available. Ms Rosie Winterton: The Government have been Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for doing everything it can to help local authorities, along Communities and Local Government how many armed with other creditors, get their money back. HM Treasury forces personnel resident in (a) Hemel Hempstead, (b) has been working with the Icelandic authorities to Dacorum, (c) Hertfordshire and (d) the South East ensure fair treatment for UK creditors. 959W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 960W

Local Government: Equality Regional Planning and Development: South West

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for John Penrose: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what Communities and Local Government when the final requirements there are upon local authorities to regional spatial strategy for the South West will be complete an equality impact assessment. [284479] issued. [285435]

Michael Jabez Foster: I have been asked to reply. Mr. Ian Austin: On 20 May, the High Court gave an Local authorities, like all public authorities, are required oral judgment that the published Regional Spatial Strategy to assess the impact of relevant policies and practices for the East of England failed to meet certain requirements on gender, race and disability equality in line with the of the EU Strategic Environmental Assessment Directive requirements of the gender, race and disability equality in respect of policies relating to three towns. duties. The Department and the Government office for the south-west are currently considering the potential Local Government: Public Consultation implications for the Regional Spatial Strategy for the south-west, and an announcement is expected shortly. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Shared Ownership Schemes for Communities and Local Government what timetable has been set for the forthcoming consultation Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for exercise on local democratic renewal. [284071] Communities and Local Government (1) what recent discussions his Department has had with housing Ms Rosie Winterton: The consultation exercise on associations on lender support for shared ownership local democratic renewal will be published shortly. housing schemes; [284412] (2) if (a) his Department and (b) the Homes and Local Government: Redundancy Communities Agency will urge lenders (i) in the private sector and (ii) partly or wholly in public ownership to Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Secretary of State for maintain credit flows to first-time buyers to participate Communities and Local Government what estimate he in shared ownership schemes. [284413] has made of the number of redundancies in the local government sector in 2009-10. [285509] John Healey: The Department and the Homes and Communities Agency are working with all major mortgage Ms Rosie Winterton: This information is not held by lenders, both directly and through the Council of Mortgage Communities and Local Government. Lenders and the Building Societies Association, in order to encourage increased availability of mortgages for Mortgages: Government Assistance shared ownership purchasers. Social Rented Housing Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 8 June 2009, Official Report, column 753W, Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for on mortgages: Government assistance, whether (a) the Communities and Local Government what recent Bank of Ireland, (b) GMAC, (c) Kensington estimate he has made of the number of households on Mortgages, (d) GE Money and (e) the Post Office has social housing waiting lists which are (a) single person, joined the Homeowners Mortgage Support Scheme; (b) two-person, (c) three-person and (d) four or more and if he will make a statement. [284477] person households. [283241]

John Healey: GE Money, GMAC, Kensington Mr. Ian Austin: Information on the size of households Mortgages and the Bank of Ireland (which services on social housing waiting lists is not available. operates its residential mortgage lending through four Social Rented Housing: Construction brands in the UK - Bristol and West Mortgages, Bank of Ireland Mortgages, Giraffe and Post Office Mortgages), are all committed to offer the Homeowners Mortgage Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Support Scheme. Communities and Local Government how many socially rented housing units are included in schemes involving demolition and rebuilding in each region; Non-Domestic Rates and how many homes for social use will be provided by such schemes on completion in each region. [284700] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Mr. Ian Austin: Figures showing the number of socially has made of gross revenue from business rates in (a) rented homes included in schemes involving demolition 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10 in England. [284505] and rebuilding are not held centrally.

Ms Rosie Winterton: Local authorities reported that Tenancy Deposit Scheme they expect the gross revenue (before deductions for reliefs and collection costs) to be raised from non-domestic Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for rates in 2008-09 in England to be £21.475 billion. The Communities and Local Government what measures corresponding figure for 2009-10 is £22.473 billion. his Department uses to assess the performance of the 961W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 962W

Deposit Protection Service; and what the level of Crime: Glastonbury Festival performance against those measures was in the latest period for which figures are available. [285432] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people were arrested Mr. Ian Austin: The Deposit Protection Service (DPS) for each category of offence at the 2009 Glastonbury is required to submit monthly reports on 11 key Festival. [284105] performance indicators under the terms of its contract with Communities and Local Government. In addition, Mr. Hanson: The data requested are not collected the Department holds quarterly monitoring meetings centrally. with the DPS at which any performance issues can be The arrests collection held by the Home Office covers discussed. Over the 27 months that the scheme has been arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) recorded operating, the DPS’s performance has been consistently by the police forces in England and Wales. Data are not high, with targets regularly being exceeded. reported to the Home Office below police force area level. The most recent year of data available is 2007-08. For more detailed information I would direct the HOME DEPARTMENT hon. Member to Avon and Somerset police. CCTV Crimes of Violence

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the for the Home Department what guidance his Home Department what targets he has set for the Department and its agencies have provided to local reduction of knife crime in the next three years. authorities on the use of CCTV cameras fitted with [282057] microphones to tackle crime. [284148] Mr. Hanson: Under the Government’s PSA 23 target Mr. Hanson: Guidance to local authorities on the use we are committed to reducing the most serious violence, of CCTV cameras fitted with microphones has not including tackling serious sexual offences and domestic been issued by the Home Office or its agencies. violence. No separate numerical target for knife crime has been set but we have made clear that the aim of the Community Policing: North West Tackling Knives Action Programme is to reduce the number of young people killed and seriously injured by Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State knives. for the Home Department what recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of neighbourhood Internet policing schemes in (a) Merseyside and (b) Crosby constituency. [283187] Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he will discuss with Mr. Hanson: HMIC has inspected every force in Phorm the potential for the use of its technologies in England and Wales to assess their capabilities in delivering surveillance of internet use for the purposes of neighbourhood policing and developing citizen focus. counter-terrorism; [280981] HMIC’s assessment in September 2008 was that all (2) whether his Department’s note on the forces, including Merseyside police, had met this standard. applicability of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 to targeted online advertising was based on Community Support Officers: Equipment the assumption that internet users would have to opt (a) in and (b) out in relation to the use of their data Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the for the purposes of such advertising. [280891] Home Department if he will issue guidance to chief constables on the use of stab-proof vests by police Mr. Hanson: The Home Office expressed an informal community support officers. [283940] view about targeted online advertising and RIPA in response to a number of requests. That note concludes Mr. Hanson: In 2008 the National Policing Improvement that targeted online advertising systems might be lawful Agency (NPIA) was commissioned by the Home Office, if consent was “expressed appropriately”. It did not Association of Police Authorities and Association of consider whether the advertising system was either opt-in Chief Police Officers (ACPO) to undertake a review of or opt-out. The Information Commissioner has confirmed the operational deployment and use of Police Community that consent should be given on the basis of an opt-in Support Officers (PCSO). Among other issues, this system. review focused on the issue of Personal Protective No discussions have taken place between the Home Equipment (including protective vests) and the core Office and Phorm regarding the use of its technology role and function of PCSOs. Following the review a for counter-terrorism purposes and none are planned. number of general principles were agreed, one being that PCSOs would undertake public facing non- The European Commission requested a reply within confrontational duties in uniform. two months and the Government have responded accordingly. It would not be appropriate to disclose the The NPIA will be publishing general risk guidance response while the Commission is still considering it. for all operational staff including PCSOs in late summer 2009. Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for the ACPO issued guidance to forces in 2005, updated in Home Department for what reasons his Department 2007, on Police Community Support Officers. monitors internet traffic. [282032] 963W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 964W

Mr. Hanson [holding answer 24 June 2009]: The Offensive Weapons Home Office does not monitor internet traffic. Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how much his Department has the Home Department how much his Department has spent on monitoring internet traffic in each of the last spent on knife arches in the last 12 months. [284102] five years. [282033] Mr. Hanson: The Government have spent £421,557 Mr. Hanson [holding answer 24 June 2009]: The on the purchase of search equipment, including knife Home Office does not monitor internet traffic. arches and search wands, for police forces in the last The Home Office does sponsor systems to enable 12 months. communications service providers to store communications The provision of search equipment for police forces data that they are required to retain under the European was a key measure of the Tackling Violence Action Data Retention Directive 2006/24/EC, or retain voluntarily Plan announced in February 2008 and the Tackling under the Anti-Terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001 Knives Action programme which was announced in code of practice on data retention. Communications June last year. data, are the who, when and where of a communication, but none of the content. Offensive Weapons: Amnesties The Home Office spend on these systems over the last five years is shown as follows. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the £ Home Department what guidance his Department ATCSA EUDRD issues to police authorities on the organisation and conduct of local knife amnesty programmes. [282055] 2004-05 84,582.23 — 2005-06 770,800.00 — Mr. Hanson: In June 2007, the Home Office and 2006-07 5,282,100.90 — ACPO published Knife Crime Best Practice for police 2007-08 5,714,045.00 2,632,450.00 forces in England and Wales, including the use of knife 2008-09 3,567,121.25 6,608,406.48 amnesties. Knives: Amnesty This built upon the lessons learned from the National Knife Amnesty run in partnership with ACPO in England, Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland from 24 May to Home Department whether he plans to introduce a 30 June 2006. national knife amnesty. [284601] Office of Cyber Security: Cyber Security Operations Mr. Hanson: The Government do not have any current Centre plans for the introduction of a national knife amnesty. In June 2007, the Home Office and ACPO published Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State Knife Crime Best Practice for police forces in England for the Home Department what (a) budget and (b) and Wales, including the use of knife amnesties. This personnel his Department will provide for the (i) Office built upon the lessons learned from the National Knife of Cyber Security and (ii) Cyber Security Operations Amnesty run in partnership with ACPO in England, Centre in the first 12 months of operation. [283488] Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland from 24 May to 30 June 2006. Mr. Hanson: The Office of Cyber Security (OCS) will Police forces can if they wish run local knife amnesties be established in September 2009 to provide strategic taking advice from ACPO and the Crown Prosecution leadership for and coherence across Government, and Service. to establish a cross-Government programme to address Members: Correspondence priority areas in pursuit of the UK’s strategic cyber security objectives. The OCS will be established in and Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for the supported by the Cabinet Office. As a multi-agency Home Department when he plans to reply to the letter body, it will include personnel from across Government; from the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead of the exact staffing arrangements are currently being 10 December 2008 on computer server security. determined. [262975] The Cyber Security Operations Centre (CSOC) will be established at the same time to bring together existing Mr. Hanson: My right hon. Friend the former Home multi-agency efforts to provide situational awareness, Secretary (Jacqui Smith) wrote to the hon. Member in analysis and incident response co-ordination in the June. cyber security field, making sure that new and existing resources are used to best effect in the areas where they Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for are needed the most. As a multi-agency body, in common the Home Department when he plans to reply to the with the OCS, the CSOC will include personnel from letter to his predecessor of 28 April 2009 from the right across Government; the exact staffing arrangements are hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to currently being determined. Mr. Fazli Subhan. [280437] The additional resources for the Government’s overall Alan Johnson: I wrote to my right hon. Friend on cyber security programme will be reported to the House 2 July 2009. in the autumn. 965W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 966W

Police: Crosby TREASURY

Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State Chief Scientist for the Home Department what the budget for policing in Crosby constituency was in (a) 2007-08 and (b) Colin Challen: To ask the Chancellor of the 2008-09. [283188] Exchequer if he will appoint a chief scientist to his Department. [284594] Mr. Hanson: The Government allocate funding to Sarah McCarthy-Fry: There are currently no plans to police authorities as a whole. The allocation of resources appoint a chief scientist in the Treasury. in Crosby constituency is a matter for the chief constable of Merseyside police and the police authority, who are Departmental Secondment responsible for assessing local needs. Merseyside’s final budget was £307.3 million for 2007-08 Sarah Teather: To ask the Chancellor of the and £317.1 million for 2008-09. Exchequer how many employees of his Department have been posted to work in offices of hon. Members Police: Pensions of each political party in each of the last five years. [284885] Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the cost of police pension Sarah McCarthy-Fry: No Treasury employees have payments (a) was in each of the last five financial been posted to work in offices of any of the hon. years and (b) is projected to be in each of the next five Members of any of the political parties in each of the financial years. [282875] last five years. In accordance with the Civil Service Code, Treasury officials are accountable to Ministers, Alan Johnson: Before 2006-07 police pensions were who are in turn accountable to Parliament. It would be paid out of forces’ operating accounts. Information a breach of the Code for Treasury officials to act in a about the level of pensions expenditure net of officer way that is determined by party political considerations. contributions is included in the annual reports published by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Euro Preparations Advisory Group Accountancy (CIPFA). This information is gathered independently of the Home Office. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Since 2006-07, forces have paid police pensions out of Exchequer on what date the Local Authorities Euro a pensions account into which are paid officers’ Preparations Group last met. [284920] contributions and the employer’s contribution. Where the pensions account does not have enough funds to Mr. Timms: The last meeting between local authorities meet the costs of pensions in any year it is topped up and central Government officials to discuss Euro with grant from central Government; any surplus is preparations took place in September 2006. recouped. The following table gives expenditure information Financial Services Authority: Communication Service in relation to England and Wales. Providers The Government Actuary’s Department is currently reviewing its projections for future expenditure on police Mrs. Laing: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pensions, with a view to providing updated projections how many requests for communications data were later in 2009. In view of this, I shall write to the hon. made by the Financial Services Authority to Member when the revised projections are available. communication service providers (CSPs) under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 in (a) 2001, £ billion (b) 2002, (c) 2003, (d) 2004, (e) 2005, (f) 2006, (g) Total pension Expenditure net of 2007 and (h) 2008; and how many of these requests Financial year expenditure officers’ contributions resulted in the requested communications data being 2006-07 1.970 1.471 disclosed by the relevant CSP. [284870] 2007-08 2.096 1.577 2008-091 2.374 1.849 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The matter raised in this question 1 Unaudited account information. is the responsibility of the Financial Services Authority Travelling People: Caravan Sites (FSA). whose day-to-day operations are independent from Government control and influence. I understand that the FSA will write to the hon. Member directly. David Tredinnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what support is available to Financial Services: Eligibility local residents from the police to prevent illegal Travellers sites being established at times when local Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if authority offices are closed, with particular reference to he will estimate the number of those over 65 years of cases where the land is owned by the Travellers age who have been disqualified from eligibility for concerned. [284550] financial services on the grounds of age. [285229]

Mr. Hanson: Police have powers under the Criminal Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government Equalities Justice and Public Act 1994 to deal with unauthorised Office 2007 consultation “A Framework for Fairness” encampments. These are discretionary powers and it found that some people were unhappy about how age is would be a decision for the senior officer at the scene as used in financial services products, mostly in respect of to whether they were used. older people’s experience of travel and motor insurance. 967W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 968W

After the “Framework for Fairness” consultation and were 3,644 in 2008-09, 5,783 in 2007-08 and 6,318 in the report of the expert’s working group on age 2006-07. The Agency’s caseworkers are required to act discrimination in financial services, Government in an impartial manner and only challenge valuations commissioned research from Oxera on the use of age-based where it is considered that the figure adopted by the practices in financial services. This was published by the parties is not supported by market evidence. The fluctuations Government Equalities Office on 29 June 2009 alongside in these figures reflect changes in the total volume of “Ending age discrimination in services and public cases. functions—a consultation”, and concluded that, although some people have real problems with finding and buying Working Tax Credit: Yorkshire suitable insurance policies, no age group is excluded from motor or travel insurance markets on the grounds of age. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people in City of York Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer constituency are receiving (a) child and (b) working whether his Department has issued recent guidance to tax credit; and what the average monetary value of tax financial institutions on age-related eligibility criteria credits to those households was in the latest period for for financial products; and if he will make a statement. which figures are available. [285873] [285230] Mr. Timms: The latest information on the number of Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury has not issued recipient families in receipt of child and working tax any recent guidance to financial institutions on age-related credits, by each parliamentary constituency, is given in eligibility criteria for financial products. the HMRC snapshot publication, “Child and Working On 29 June 2009, the Government Equalities Office Tax Credits Statistics. Geographical Analyses. April published “Ending age discrimination in services and 2009”. public functions—a consultation”. The results of this Information on average annual entitlements by each consultation will help clarify how the Equalities Bill parliamentary constituency, based on incomes and final prohibition on unjustified age discrimination will be family circumstances in 2007-08, is produced in the applied in the financial services sector. HMRC publication, “Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics. Finalised Annual Awards. Geographical Analyses. Taxation: Repayments 2007-08”. These publications are available on the HMRC website at David T.C. Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- Exchequer what effect the introduction of random stats.htm security checks has had on the average length of time HMRC does not produce separate statistics for child taken by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to make and working tax credits. repayments of tax; and how much HMRC owes in repayments to (a) individual taxpayers and (b) small businesses for the tax year 2007-08. [284599]

Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE seek to strike a balance between issuing repayments as quickly as possible for the benefit of the customers and Climate Change: Public Awareness ensuring that the Exchequer is adequately protected against fraud. Therefore some tax repayment claims are 14. Rob Marris: To ask the Secretary of State for subject to security checks, which may delay repayments Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he from being made. has made of the level of awareness among the public of Some self assessment customers have unfortunately the consequences of climate change. [285164] experienced such delays this year caused by a combination of a very much sharper peak of repayments in January Joan Ruddock: In March 2009, as part of the Act on and February, arising from the move to greater online CO2 Campaign, our independent research showed that filing, and more repayments being selected for our about 90 per cent. of those consulted indicated that security checking. they were aware of climate change. Figures for the amount HMRC owes in repayments Recent qualitative research studies, commissioned for the tax year 2007-08 are not available. Repayments separately by the Department for Transport, and by my of tax are not due until the customer’s tax position for Department, probed what people actually know, and the tax year has been finalised. suggested that levels of literacy about climate change Taxation: Valuation Office are low and fragmented.

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the 22. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Exchequer how many inheritance tax valuations were Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to challenged by the Valuation Office Agency in each of increase the level of awareness among the public of the the last three years. [284923] consequences of climate change. [285172]

Mr. Timms: The number of inheritance tax cases in Joan Ruddock: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I which the valuations submitted by taxpayers were adjusted gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil following a challenge by the Valuation Office Agency Wilson), earlier today. 969W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 970W

Carbon Capture and Storage Mr. Kidney: Global energy demand and wholesale prices have fallen since peaks last year. It is essential 16. Mr. Devine: To ask the Secretary of State for that falls in wholesale costs reach consumers. This is Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he why we asked Ofgem to provide quarterly reports on has made of the development of carbon capture and price movements. storage technology; and if he will make a statement. Ofgem’s most recent report found that margins are [285166] around historic levels, and falls in costs appear to be being passed on to consumers. We expect suppliers to Edward Miliband: Carbon capture and storage technology continue to pass on any sustained falls in wholesale has huge potential to turn coal into a clean fuel of the costs. future. While it has only been demonstrated at small scale, our plans will be among the largest demonstration Renewable Energy: Electricity Generation projects in the world and we hope will drive us towards the successful deployment of CCS in developed and 23. Mr. Dunne: To ask the Secretary of State for developing countries. Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the proportion of electricity generated from (a) 17. Mr. Ronnie Campbell: To ask the Secretary of solar and (b) other renewable sources in the latest State for Energy and Climate Change what his policy period for which figures are available. [285173] on carbon capture and storage is; and if he will make a statement. [285167] Mr. Kidney: In 2008, a very small proportion (0.004 per cent.) of electricity was generated from solar. However, Edward Miliband: Carbon capture and storage is in total, renewable generation grew by 10 per cent. essential in the battle against climate change, because of during 2008, and accounted for 5.5 per cent. of total the global reliance on coal in the energy mix, now and electricity generation. in the future. Our policy is to show leadership on this Renewable Energy: Consultation issue as a way to improve our energy security, help provide jobs for the future and bring down carbon emissions. 24. Judy Mallaber: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he expects to announce the conclusions of his Department’s Smart Meters consultation on renewable energy. [285174]

20. Dr. Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Kidney: We have already published a summary of Energy and Climate Change what recent progress his responses to the Renewable Energy Strategy consultation Department has made on the national roll-out of smart on the DECC website, and we will publish a new meters. [285170] Renewable Energy Strategy, in response to the consultation, later this month. Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Fuel Poverty Energy and Climate Change what recent representations he has received on the introduction of smart meters; and if he will make a statement. [285168] Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when his Department Mr. Kidney: Last year the Government announced began its review of its strategy for tackling fuel poverty; their intention to mandate smart electricity and where and if he will make a statement. [285095] relevant gas metering for all households in Great Britain. This will be a major project involving the installation of Mr. Kidney: My hon. Friend the Minister of State for about 47 million smart meters. We have set an indicative Energy and Climate Change announced that the timetable for a completion of the roll-out by the end of Government would be reviewing their fuel poverty policies 2020. We published a consultation on aspects of during her evidence to the EFRA Select Committee in implementation on 11 May 2009. The consultation is January 2009. The Director for the review was formally available on the open consultations section of the DECC appointed in March 2009, and the majority of the team website. Obviously replies are still being received to this was in place in April 2009. consultation, the closing date is not until 3 August and Initial findings of this review are expected in the all responses received will be considered. summer of 2009. Until the review has delivered its In addition, officials have met with numerous findings it would be inappropriate to consider whether organisations and individuals to discuss smart metering to revise the Government’s fuel poverty strategy. issues, including energy supply companies, network Fuel Poverty: Public Consultation operating companies, metering businesses, consumer organisations and others with an interest in smart metering. Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what public consultation Domestic Energy Prices he plans to undertake as part of his Department’s review of its strategy for tackling fuel poverty. [285093] 21. Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he Mr. Kidney: DECC is currently undertaking a review of has made of trends in domestic energy prices; and if he its fuel poverty policies. Initial findings of this review will make a statement. [285171] are expected in the summer of 2009. Until the review 971W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 972W has delivered its findings it would be inappropriate to HEALTH consider whether to revise the Government’s fuel poverty strategy. If the Government decided they did wish to Alcoholism revise the strategy, it would comply with the code of practice on consultation. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many finished admissions to hospital where an illness related to alcohol was a primary or Office for Renewable Energy Development secondary diagnosis at the outset there were in each NHS trust in each of the last three years. [284843] Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when the proposed Office Gillian Merron: The number of alcohol-related hospital for Renewable Energy Development will become admissions, either with a primary or secondary diagnosis, operational; and if he will make a statement. [285041] in each national health service trust, for each of the last three years that data are available is given a table, which Mr. Kidney [holding answer 8 July 2009]: The has been placed in the Library. Government announced in the Manufacturing Strategy Alcoholism: Accident and Emergency Departments Review of September 2008, “Manufacturing: New Challenges, New Opportunities” that the Office for James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Renewable Energy Deployment (ORED) would be Health how many finished admission episodes where established as the Renewable Energy Strategy (RES) the admission method was via accident and emergency was finalised. The Government intend to publish the for an alcohol-related diagnosis there were in each RES this summer and the ORED will be formally NHS trust in each of the last five years. [284842] launched in line with its earlier announcement. Gillian Merron: The number of alcohol-related hospital Sizewell A Power Station admissions via accident and emergency, in each national health service trust, for each of the last five years that data are available is given in a table, which has been Mr. Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy placed in the Library. and Climate Change what marine environmental assessment the Government have made in respect of Departmental Finance the discharge of coolant from Sizewell A. [280804] Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr. Kidney: The Environment Agency, as the when he plans to publish his Department’s programme independent regulator, carried out an assessment of the budgeting data for 2007-08. [283287] radiological impact of the discharge and concluded that there had been no additional impact beyond that assessed Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department plans to publish and authorised for routine discharges on the marine the programme budgeting data for 2007-08 on 16 July environment. 2009. Departmental Internet Warm Front Scheme Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy when his Department plans to update its web browsers and Climate Change what recent representations his from Internet Explorer 6. [285014] Department has received from the Institute of Phil Hope: The Department is currently in the process Domestic Energy Assessors on eaga plc work on the of reviewing its options for updating its web browsers Warm Front scheme; and if he will make a statement. from Internet Explorer 6. No decision has yet been [284468] made as to which web browser the Department will update to or when any update might take place. Mr. Kidney [holding answer 6 July 2009]: The Department has not received any representations from Departmental Procurement either the Institute of Domestic Energy Assessors (IDEA) or its members on eaga plc’s work on the Warm Front Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health scheme. what changes have been made to his Department’s (a) The Department has however received seven office equipment and (b) stationery purchasing policy representations from the Institute of Domestic Energy in the last six months. [285313] Assessors (IDEA) and its members alleging a conflict of interest around eaga plc’s role in administering the Phil Hope: The Department has not reviewed or Warm Front scheme and the services they offer on a changed its purchasing policy for office equipment or commercial basis such as the provision of Energy stationery in the last six months. Performance Certificates (EPCs) for dwellings. Departmental Secondment Eaga plc is a commercial enterprise offering a variety of services to both central and local government as well Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for as the social housing and private sectors. The provision Health how many employees of his Department have of EPCs to external parties does not represent a conflict been posted to work in offices of hon. Members of of interest in terms of their role managing the Warm each political party in each of the last five years. Front scheme. [284892] 973W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 974W

Phil Hope: Civil servants are required to act in accordance James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for with the requirements of the Civil Service Code. Health how many people were discharged from Civil servants may shadow hon. Members as part of treatment for drug misuse in the categories of (a) a programme run by the Industry and Parliament Trust. treatment completed drug free, (b) treatment Information about number of civil servants from the completed not drug free, (c) dropped out, (d) referred Department that have had such an attachment is not to other treatment, (e) individual entered prison, (f) held centrally. individual died and (g) reason not known in each year from 2003-04 to 2007-08. [284838] Drugs: Medical Treatments Gillian Merron: The National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse’s National Drug Treatment Monitoring James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for System collects discharge information and the numbers Health how much his Department has spent on recorded for the discharge codes requested for the period funding drug treatment services in each year since 2004-05 to 2007-08 are as follows: 1997; and what the projected expenditure on drug treatment services is in each year to 2010-11. [284840] 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Treatment 3,632 4,559 5,829 7,324 Gillian Merron: Since 2001, the Department and the completed drug Home Office have provided specific resources for drug free treatment in the form of the pooled drug treatment Treatment 7,656 10,662 13,022 17,306 budget (PTB). This funding is allocated to 149 drug completed teams across the country to use, along with local mainstream Referred on 4,516 6,348 8,662 10,811 funding to provide for treatment and services according Dropped out/ 23,955 26,136 23,646 19,591 to the specific needs of each locality. Information on left drug treatment spend prior to 2001 is not held centrally. Prison 2,441 3,486 4,069 4,240 Died 602 514 633 784 PTB allocation (£ million) Other 4,383 2,376 1,556 520 Retained in 104,900 113,521 129,341 133,024 2001-02 142 treatment 2002-03 192 Note: Data collected for 2003-04 were not robust enough to provide figures for that 2003-04 236 year. 2004-05 253 Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements 2005-06 300 2006-07 385 Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2007-08 398 pursuant to the answer to Lord Laird of 1 June 2009, 2008-09 398 Official Report, House of Lords, column 31WA, on 2009-10 406 health: former UK residents, if he will place in the 1 2010-11 — Library a copy of the minutes of the EU-level meeting 1 Not yet available held in November 2008. [284193]

Drugs: Misuse Gillian Merron: The European Commission does not make the minutes of the Audit Board publicly available. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health However, details of agreed average costs are published how many problem drug users there were in (a) Essex in the Official Journal of the European Union. A copy and (b) Castle Point in (i) 1997 and (ii) each of the last of this has been placed in the Library. five years; and how many received treatment. [282856] Heroin Gillian Merron: Data on problem drug users in 1997 and for problem drug users in Castle Point are not James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for collected centrally. For planning purposes, the National Health how many items of heroin substitute in each Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse have advised category were dispensed to patients in each of the last Essex that they use an estimate of 3,486 problematic six years. [284841] drug users1 (PDU). However, there are insufficient data on the number of PDU to determine how the PDU Gillian Merron: Section 4.10 (Drugs used in substance population has changed over time. dependence) of the British National Formulary (BNF) Data on the number of problematic drug users in lists two drugs classified as heroin substitutes, Methadone treatment in Essex since 2004-05 is given as follows. and Buprenorphine. Data for 2008-09 is not yet available. The following table shows the number of prescription 1 Based on data collected by the university of Glasgow covering items written in the United Kingdom and dispensed in the period 2004-05 to 2006-07. the community, in England. Prescription items dispensed for heroin substitute drugs within Section 4.10 of Number the BNF Items (thousand) 2004-05 1,095 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2005-06 1,361 2006-07 1,623 Methadone 1,512.5 1,721.1 1,954.7 2,191.3 2,406.7 2,654.7 2007-08 1,762 Hydrochloride Buprenorphine 310.6 462.8 532.7 610.8 621.0 612.7 975W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 976W

Prescription items dispensed for heroin substitute drugs within Section 4.10 of Phil Hope: The Department does not distribute area the BNF based grants (ABG) direct to local authorities. Items (thousand) 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 The Department contributes to the ABG in the form of monthly payments to the Department for Communities Buprenorphine — — — 0.0 19.3 50.3 and Local Government (CLG). CLG then distribute with Naloxone these grant monies direct to local authorities. Notes: 1. ‘—’ indicates no prescription items The Department of Health does distribute adult 2. ‘0.0’ indicates fewer than 50 items personal social services capital grants and specific revenue Source: Prescription Cost Analysis (PCA) grant monies directly to local authorities, via regular grant payments. The capital grant monies are either These figures may underestimate use as these drugs paid directly to all local authorities or issued, via a are also licensed for use as a cough preparation and bidding process, to specific local authorities. analgesic. Some prescriptions intended for use as a substitute for heroin may be recorded in BNF Sections Details of all adult personal social services specific 3.9 (Cough suppressants) and 4.7 (Analgesics). revenue and capital grant allocations and contributions to the ABG for 2008-11 was announced in Hospitals: Admissions LASSL(DH)(2007)2 and LASSL(DH)(2007)3. In addition, details of the grants included within the bidding processing Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for were also published in these documents. Local authority Health how many people aged (a) under 16, (b) social services letters (LASSLs) and local authority between 16 and 18, (c) between 19 and 65 and (d) over circulars are published by the Department of Health. 65 years old were admitted to hospital in each strategic A copy of the respective LASSLs has been placed in health authority with a primary or secondary cause of the Library and is available at: admission listed as (i) sunburn, (ii) sunstroke and (iii) www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ dehydration in each of the last five years. [284850] Lettersandcirculars/index.htm Gillian Merron: The available information has been Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for placed in the Library. Health what recent estimate has been made of the Kidneys: Research annual costs to (a) his Department of distributing each grant made by it to local authorities and (b) local Mrs. Dean: To ask the Secretary of State for Health authorities of administering each such grant. [285050] how much his Department spent on research into (a) chronic kidney disease, (b) acute kidney injury, (c) Phil Hope: This information is not collected centrally. kidney cancer, (d) dialysis, (e) end-of-life care for The Department uses an in-house electronic information kidney patients and (f) other kidney disease in each of system, the business management system (BMS), which the last three years; and how much it plans to spend on brings together the Department’s human resources, such research in 2009. [284484] procurement and finance information and processing into a single integrated system. The Department uses Gillian Merron: Both the Department and the Medical the BMS system to process and issue adult personal Research Council support kidney disease research. Available social services grants. annual expenditure data are shown in the following table. The Department contributes to the area based grant in the form of monthly payments, via BMS, to the Expenditure on renal disease research Department for Communities and Local Government £ million (CLG). CLG then distribute these grant monies direct Medical Research to local authorities. Department1, 2 Council The Department distributes capital grant monies and 2006-07 13.2 5.3 specific revenue grant monies directly to local authorities, 2007-08 12.2 5.4 via regular grant payments, again using the BMS. 2008-09 39.6 4— Information on costs to local authorities of administering 1 Includes NIHR expenditure and reported spend by NHS organisations from each grant is not collected by the Department. the transitional research and development funding allocations made to them over the three-year period. 2 Excludes the cost of relevant work undertaken by three of the research units Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for funded by Department’s Policy Research Programme as it is not separately identifiable. Health what (a) eligibility conditions and (b) 3 The estimate of NHS spend included in the total figure given here is compliance measures are in place in respect of the provisional. It will be revised when a full analysis of the returns from which it expenditure by local authorities of each grant derives has been completed. 4 Not yet available. distributed by his Department; and what recent The National Institute for Health Research’s (NIHR) estimate has been made of the annual cost to his clinical research network is currently supporting 38 studies Department of monitoring the compliance by local concerned with renal disease. authorities with such measures in respect of each such grant. [285121] Local Government Finance Phil Hope: Grant eligibility conditions and compliance Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for measures are set out in local authority social services Health which (a) specific and (b) area-based grants letters (LASSLs) and local authority circulars (LACs), are distributed to local authorities by each division of as published by the Department. These official circulars his Department. [285049] notify local authorities of their specific revenue and 977W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 978W capital grant funding and the Department’s contributions Gillian Merron: The average cost of employing a to the area based grant (ABG) in support of social care meat hygiene inspector when the Meat Hygiene Service policies (including children’s personal social services was established on 1 April 1995 is unavailable. funding insofar as this is provided by the children and The salary scale for a meat hygiene inspector as at adolescent mental health services contribution). 31 March 2009 is £20,974 to £25,5411, 2. From April 2008, the majority of revenue grants will 1 Member of principal civil service pension scheme. be delivered to local authorities through the Department’s 2 Pay award pending. contribution to the ABG. The ABG is paid on an unringfenced basis and as such local authorities are able Meat Hygiene Service: Slaughterhouses to determine locally how best to spend these grants in order to deliver local and national priorities. As an unringfenced grant, there are no restrictions on carry Mr. O’Hara: To ask the Secretary of State for Health forward between financial years. This represents a how many visits were made on average by meat hygiene considerable increase in the flexibility open to local inspectors to abattoirs (a) in the first 12 months after government to take local spending decisions in line with the establishment of the Meat Hygiene Service and (b) the new performance framework. The ABG is administered in the last 12 months. [284754] by the Department for Communities and Local Government (CLG) and paid to local authorities on a Gillian Merron: The Meat Hygiene Service (MHS) is monthly basis. responsible for official controls in all approved fresh For the small number of ring-fenced grants, these are meat establishments including abattoirs. Since establishment allocated via a bidding process. Therefore, there are on 1 April 1995, the MHS has carried out these controls ‘eligibility’ criteria and compliance measures attached in abattoirs through daily attendance to undertake ante to the use of these monies in order to meet the specific and post-mortem inspection of every animal/carcase. social care policy. The MHS also audits, on a risk based frequency, operator compliance with all relevant legislation. Copies of LASSL(s) and LACs are available at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ Mr. O’Hara: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Lettersandcirculars/index.htm how many abattoirs there were when the Meat Hygiene Meat Hygiene Service: Manpower Service was established; and how many there are now. [284755] Mr. O’Hara: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many meat hygiene inspectors were employed by Gillian Merron: The number of abattoirs operating the Meat Hygiene Service (a) at its inception and (b) when the Meat Hygiene Service was established on at the latest date for which information is available. 1 April 1995 is unavailable. [284753] However, at 31 March 1997 there were 715 abattoirs and at 31 March 2009 there were 369 abattoirs. Gillian Merron: Figures solely for the number of meat hygiene inspectors (MHIs) when the Meat Hygiene Medical Treatments: EC law Service was established on 1 April 1995 are not available. However, the average number of meat hygiene inspectors Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and official veterinarians employed by the MHS in whether the Medicines (Human and Veterinary) 1995-96 was 1,007 and in 2008-09 was 876. These (Bailiwick of Guernsey) Law has come into force in numbers exclude casual and contract staff. Guernsey. [284939]

Mr. O’Hara: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr. Wills: I have been asked to reply. what the ratio of veterinary to administrative staff in The Medicines Law is not yet in force in Guernsey. It the Meat Hygiene Service was (a) at its inception and remains the intention of Guernsey’s administration that (b) in the latest period for which figures are available. the law will commence with effect from 1 October 2009, [284756] through seeking approval of a Commencement Ordinance in the States of Deliberation shortly beforehand. Gillian Merron: A breakdown of headcount numbers at the establishment of the Meat Hygiene Service on 1 April 1995 is not available in sufficient detail to calculate National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse: the ratio of veterinary/inspection staff to administrative/ Manpower managerial staff. As at 31 March 2009 James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many people are employed by the Veterinary/Inspection staff—1,254 National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse; Administrative/Managerial staff—166 [284836] Ratio Veterinary/inspection:administrative/managerial—7.6:1 National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse Mr. O’Hara: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (2) which treatment facilities the National Treatment what the average cost of employing a meat hygiene Agency for Substance Misuse operates; [284837] inspector to the Meat Hygiene Service was (a) at its (3) how much funding his Department has provided inception in current prices and (b) at the latest date for to the National Treatment Agency for Substance which information is available. [284757] Misuse in each of the last five years. [284839] 979W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 980W

Gillian Merron: As at 6 July 2009, the National WALES Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse (NTA) employed Departmental Databases 191 full-time equivalents staff. The NTA does not operate any drug treatment facilities. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales The NTA is a special health authority within the national what databases managed by his Department and its health service, established by Government in 2001 to agencies hold personal information on members of the improve the availability, capacity and effectiveness of public; on what date each such database became treatment for drug misuse in England. The NTA works operational; and if he will make a statement. [285977] with local partnerships and providers to develop more Mr. Hain: The Wales Office does not maintain such effective local treatment services and collects and publishes databases. monthly data showing how well each area, and treatment service, is performing. Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales The Department has provided funding to the NTA, a which of the planned databases that will be managed combination of core and project funding, over the last by his Department or one of its agencies and which will five years, as follows: hold personal information on members of the public are expected to become operational in each of the next £000 five years; and if he will make a statement. [286148]

2005-06 10,267 Mr. Hain: The Wales Office has no plans within the 2006-07 11,743 next five years to manage any databases holding personal 2007-08 13,666 information on members of the public. 2008-09 15,835 Departmental Pay 2009-10 16,618 Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much has been spent on salaries and pensions for NHS Productivity Unit Ministers in his Department since 2005. [284859] Mr. Hain: Ministerial salaries are paid in accordance Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with the Ministerial and Other Salaries Act 1975. Details what the priorities of his Department’s new NHS of ministerial salaries are available in the Library of the Productivity Unit are. [283928] House and at: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/m06.pdf Ministerial pension costs are published in the Ministry Mr. Mike O’Brien: The NHS productivity and efficiency of Justice Resource accounts each year. unit has been established to work with the national These are available at: health service to identify opportunities for improved http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/1055.htm productivity and efficiency. Departmental Secondment Investment in the NHS will continue to increase in 2009-10 and 2010-11. Departmental allocations beyond Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 have not yet been set but the NHS chief executive, Wales how many employees of his Department have David Nicholson, has asked the NHS to prepare for a been posted to work in offices of hon. Members of wide range of funding scenarios. The unit will therefore each political party in each of the last five years. work with both the Department and NHS to: [284884] identify the scale of the likely challenge; Mr. Hain: None. identify potential opportunities for improving quality and efficiency simultaneously because getting it right first time for patients is both efficient and delivers better quality of care; and INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT identify the work which needs to be done nationally to support this agenda, contributing to the overall Quality, Innovation, Departmental Pay Productivity and Prevention agenda. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development pursuant to the answer of Screening: Companies 3 June 2009, Official Report, column 499W, on departmental pay, who the employers are who are paying less than £7.45 an hour for work contracted out Dr. Desmond Turner: To ask the Secretary of State by his Department; what the nature of the work for Health (1) what the terms of reference are of the undertaken on each contract is; how many staff at each National Screening Committee’s inquiry into private (a) pay band and (b) location are working on each screening companies; [284630] contract; what the duration of each contract is; and what union recognition agreements are in place with (2) when the National Screening Committee is each contractor. [285511] expected to publish its report on private screening companies; and which (a) companies and (b) other Mr. Michael Foster: Charlton House Catering Services organisations have been consulted by the committee in Ltd. who provide the staff restaurant facilities, and its inquiry. [284631] GBM Support Services Ltd. who carry out the office cleaning are contractors with staff working in 1 Palace Ann Keen: No such inquiry is currently under way. street who are paying less than £7.45 an hour. 981W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 982W

The Department is currently reviewing options to Mr. Michael Foster: We estimate that around 75 per meet the London living wage pay levels for these staff. cent. of the Department for International Development’s (DFID) committed expenditure in India will be spent primarily in rural areas. This includes both our national India: Overseas Aid level programming and our support to the state governments of Orissa, Andhra Pradesh, West Bengal, Madhya Pradesh and Bihar. DFID ensures that the programmes we Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for support are designed to particularly help the poorest International Development which of his Department’s and most excluded groups, such as scheduled castes and programmes in India aim to reduce levels of poverty in tribes. A full list of the DFID programmes which the rural and tribal regions in that country. [284454] benefit rural and tribal communities in India follows:

DFID programmes addressing rural poverty in India Financial commitment (£ Duration Programme Partner million)

National 2006-11 Reproductive and Child Health II Programme Government of India 252 2007-12 National AIDS Control Programme Government of India 102 2005-10 Revised National Tuberculosis Control Programme Government of India 41.7 2007-14 Mahila Samakhya Programme—Promoting Education for women’s equality Government of India 35 2008-11 Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan—Universalising Elementary Education in India Government of India 150 2009-14 Poorest Areas Civil Society Programme—Empowerment of poor and Civil Societies 25 socially excluded groups in the Poorest States of India 2005-10 International NGOS Partnership Agreement Programme International NGOs 20

West Bengal 2005-10 Health System Development Initiative Government of West Bengal 100 2006-11 Strengthening Rural Decentralization Government of West Bengal 36 2005-10 West Bengal Civil Society Support Programme Civil Societies 5.3

Orissa 2000-10 Western Orissa Livelihoods Programme Government of Orissa 32.75 2005-10 Orissa Tribal Empowerment and Livelihoods Project Government of Orissa 9.76 2007-12 Health Sector Plan Government of Orissa 50

Madhya Pradesh 2007-12 Rural Livelihoods Programme Government of Madhya Pradesh 45 2007-12 Health Sector Reform Programme Government of Madhya Pradesh 60

Andhra Pradesh 2007-10 Health Sector Reform Government of Andhra Pradesh 40

Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for only three functional relief camps managed by the International Development what proportion of his Government of Orissa, in which about 1,000 people are Department’s assistance to India is being provided housed. A process is currently under way to resettle through the Indian Government in 2009-10. [284455] these people in their villages at the earliest opportunity. In keeping with its standard policy, the Government Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International of India have not requested bilateral assistance to deal Development has provided £780 million as bilateral with rehabilitation work in the aftermath of the violence. assistance to India over the last three (2006-09) years. Accordingly DFID has not made any assessment of Of this, 74.6 per cent. was provided as targeted financial funding for rebuilding work. We have, however, raised assistance to the Indian Government at both the State the issue of social exclusion and violence against minorities and Central levels. in our discussions with the Government of Orissa.

Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what assessment he has International Development to which projects in Orissa made of the merits of providing funding for the his Department is providing assistance. [284456] rebuilding work required in Orissa following the violence against Christians in that region. [284453] Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) is currently providing assistance Mr. Michael Foster: According to official figures, the to four projects in Orissa: majority of people displaced by the violence in Orissa £32.75 million to the Western Orissa Rural Livelihoods programme, have already returned to their villages. There are now to improve livelihood opportunities for poor people (2000-10); 983W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 984W

£9.76 million to the Orissa Tribal Empowerment and Livelihoods Table 2: DFID bilateral expenditure on all HIV and AIDS activities, 2003-04 to programme to improve the access of tribal communities to 2007-08 livelihoods, food security and water and sanitation (2005-10); £ million

£50 million to the Orissa Health Sector Programme to reduce 2003-04 217.9 infant and maternal mortality rates, infectious diseases and 2004-05 263.3 malnutrition (2007-12); 2005-06 355.3 £7.5 million to the Industrial Policy Resolution Project to 2006-07 388.8 improve the climate for socially and environmentally responsible investment and enterprise development in Orissa (2003-09). 2007-08 411.9 In addition to these four programmes, Orissa also benefits from DFID’s support to national level programmes United Nations: Females and civil society partnerships. Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Kosovo: Internet International Development pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 1W, on United Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Nations: females, what funding to support the International Development with reference to the establishment of a United Nations Agency for Women answer of 7 March 2008, Official Report, column his Department has allocated; over what time period; 2875W, on Kosovo: internet, what recent estimate he and if he will make a statement. [283874] has made of the number of internet users in Kosovo; and if he will make a statement. [284547] Mr. Thomas: The Department for International Development (DFID) will play a full role in ensuring Mr. Michael Foster: There has not been a more recent that the new UN Agency for Women is adequately estimate of internet usage in Kosovo since that cited in resourced, we will urge others to do the same. the answer of 7 March 2008, Official Report, column The new White Paper on International Development: 2874W. Building Our Common Future sets out our plans to Overseas Aid: Health Services support the creation of the new agency. Once the new agency is established, DFID will support Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for fundraising efforts, and show leadership by generous International Development pursuant to the answer of core funding—at least doubling our current levels of 4 June 2009, Official Report, column 676W, on overseas support for UNIFEM. We will also support the new aid: health services, how much bilateral aid was agency with funding at country level. provided for expenditure on (a) reproductive health and (b) HIV and AIDS in (i) 2003-04, (ii) 2004-05, (iii) 2005-06, (iv) 2006-07, (v) 2007-08 and (vi) 2008-09. [284471] WOMEN AND EQUALITY

Mr. Michael Foster [holding answer 7 July 2009]: Departmental Internet Details of Department for International Development (DFID) bilateral expenditure on projects which directly Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister for Women and target reproductive health and health-related aspects of Equality when the Government Equalities Office plans HIV and AIDS are provided in table 1. to update its web browsers from Internet Explorer 6. Maternal Health spend data has also been included [285024] as there are considerable overlaps in the OECD-DAC definitions for reproductive and maternal health, for Michael Jabez Foster: The Government Equalities example, programmes dealing with the prevention and Office currently has no plans to change its web browsers. management of the consequences of abortion are included under the maternal health definition. Table 1: DFID bilateral expenditure directly targeting reproductive and maternal health and HIV and AIDS, 2003-04 to 2007-08 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS £ million Maternal Reproductive health Total RH HIV and Astraporta health (RH) (MH) and MH AIDS

2003-04 44.2 4.9 49.4 65.0 Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, 2004-05 39.5 16.2 57.1 96.7 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills 2005-06 27.5 18.7 49.2 130.9 whether the most recent annual accounts for 2006-07 29.4 21.9 55.8 128.7 Astraporta (UK) Limited were filed within the 2007-08 18.6 34.4 55.8 134.2 statutory period. [284679] However, overall DFID support to these areas covers Ian Lucas: The latest accounts were made up to a much broader range of activities including support 31 March 2007 and were filed on time on 31 January for health systems in general. Table 2 provides details 2008. The company’s accounting reference date was on the total level of relevant support, consistent with extended from 31 March 2008 to 30 September 2008 on the earlier response. Figures for 2008-09 will be available 22 January 2009 so the next accounts would be due by later this month following publication of DFID’s annual 30 July 2009. Astraporta (UK) Limited went into liquidation report. in March 2009. 985W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 986W

Bankruptcy of Standard Accounting Practice 25) or international financial reporting standards (specifically IFRS 8). These Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department have been developed by the UK and international for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will limit the accounting standards boards. IFRS 8 was modernised circumstances in which creditors can petition for by the international accounting standards board (IASB) bankruptcy to cases of borrower fraud and cases where in 2006 as part of their global convergence project. The borrowers have wilfully or culpably neglected to engage UK accounting standards board is currently progressing with a creditor’s demands for payment. [284734] the convergence of UK GAAP to IFRS. As a result of these major convergence projects in accounting I currently Ian Lucas: There are no plans to restrict the ability of have no plans to introduce further proposals in this creditors to petition for bankruptcy to the circumstances respect. suggested. Protections already exist to ensure that However, my hon. Friend may be interested to learn bankruptcy is only used as a remedy when genuine that HM Treasury is exploring whether country-by-country recovery attempts have proved to be unsuccessful. reporting of tax payments might offer a suitable means Legislative provisions exist to enable the court to take of advancing the tax transparency agenda. account of reasonable offers for payment that have been made by the debtor. There is no evidence to suggest that the bankruptcy system is being abused by Business: Political Donations creditors unwilling to consider such offers and the proportion of bankruptcy orders made on creditors’ Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, petitions has remained steady in recent years. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward legislative proposals to require small Bearwood Corporate Services companies to disclose political donations in the notes to their financial statements. [284204] Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Ian Lucas: No. Under schedule 5 to The Small whether the most recent annual accounts for Bearwood Companies and Groups (Accounts and Directors’ Report) Corporate Services Limited were filed within the Regulations 2008, small companies are required to disclose statutory period. [284680] particulars of political donations in the directors’ report if the aggregate amount of all political donations and Ian Lucas: The latest accounts for Bearwood Corporate political expenditure in respect of EU political parties, Services Limited were made up to 31 March 2007 and organisations or independent election candidates in the were filed on time on 31 January 2008. The company’s relevant financial year exceeds £2,000. The particulars accounting reference date was extended from 31 March must include the name of each political party, other 2008 to 30 September 2008 on 22 January 2009 so the political organisation or independent election candidate next accounts are due to be filed by 30 July 2009. to whom a political donation has been made, and the total amount given to that party, organisation or candidate Bearwood Holdings in the financial year. There are separate disclosure requirements in respect of donations to non-EU political Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, parties. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills whether the most recent annual accounts for Bearwood In the case of a company which is the wholly owned Holdings Limited were filed within the statutory subsidiary of a company incorporated in the United Kingdom, the disclosure, if required, will be made by period. [284681] the holding company. Ian Lucas: The latest accounts were made up to 31 March 2007 and were filed on time on 31 January 2008. The company’s accounting reference date was Competition: Aerials extended from 31 March 2008 to 30 September 2008 on 22 January 2009 so the next accounts would be due by Mr. Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Minister of State, 30 July 2009. Bearwood Holdings Limited went into Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what liquidation in March 2009. provisions of competition law apply to mobile telephone companies. [284590] Business Ian Lucas: Ofcom is the independent regulator for the UK Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, communications industries, including telecommunications. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he Sectoral regulation applies, in addition to the application will bring forward legislative proposals to require large of UK and European competition law, which applies to companies to publish an annual table showing their mobile telephone companies as it does to all undertakings, assets, liabilities, incomes, profits, losses, employees and and the application of UK consumer law. taxes paid in each country in which each operates. [284218] Chapter 9 of Ofcom’s Publication “Mobile citizens, mobile consumers” sets out an overview of the most Ian Lucas: For UK companies, segmental reporting is significant forms of regulation in place that effect the currently dealt with under either UK generally accepted mobile sector and which can be found at: accounting principles (UK GAAP) (specifically Statement http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/condocs/msa08/msa.pdf 987W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 988W

The most significant Acts that relate to Ofcom’s work In addition, much of what the Government are doing are: to support business through the downturn is aimed at Communications Act 2003. This Act gives effect to much of the many enterprises that are customers of companies the regulatory framework for electronic communications that in the steel industry. This includes the vehicle scrappage has been established by the European Commission across the scheme, which for a temporary period will give people a European Union. discount of £2,000 for trading in vehicles older than Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006. This Act, which consolidated a 10 years when buying a new vehicle. This comes on top number of earlier pieces of legislation, sets out the regime for of measures in our Real Help for Business programme, licensing the right to use spectrum, and empowers Ofcom to launched in January which included a £1.3 billion Enterprise take action to prevent unlicensed use of spectrum; Finance Guarantee scheme. Competition Act 1998. This sets out the UK’s basic competition law. Ofcom is one of a number of concurrent regulators Manufacturing Industries empowered to enforce competition law. Ofcom, as a concurrent regulator of the communications sector, also has powers to apply and enforce articles 81 and 82 of the EC treaty in Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, competition matters where they may affect trade between Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what member states; and progress has been made on the Manufacturing Enterprise Act 2002. Like the Competition Act, this Act forms Perceptions survey. [284376] part of the UK’s competition law regime, providing the mechanism for Ofcom (and other regulators) to refer matters to the Competition Commission. It also provides the framework for Ian Lucas: A survey on the perceptions of manufacturing Ofcom (and other regulators) to enforce various UK laws to will be a key workstream for the Manufacturing Insight protect consumers, and for the assessment of mergers and director to consider when he/she is appointed. The acquisitions. director’s post has been advertised and interviews will Insolvency take place shortly.

Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, Manufacturing Insight Department for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 2 April 2009, Official Report, Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, columns 1445-6W, on insolvency, what the reasons are Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what for the time taken to finalise liquidation of companies mechanisms there will be for co-operation between which commenced 10 or more years ago. [284217] Manufacturing Insight and (a) Business Link and (b) the Manufacturing Advisory Service. [284373] Ian Lucas: A liquidator may only close the liquidation once their administration is for all practical purposes Ian Lucas: Manufacturing Insight will be looking to complete, once any residual assets of the insolvent establish a positive image for manufacturing to influence company have been realised and distributed to those young people and their parents that modern manufacturing entitled to receive the proceeds. can offer attractive and stimulating employment Several possible reasons could give rise to a delay in opportunities. Business Link (BL) and the Manufacturing finalising the liquidation but the most likely would be Advisory Service (MAS) provide support and advice to that the circumstances of the case are such that asset individual companies to help improve their productivity realisations may be protracted. Complexity could arise, and competitiveness. Case studies from both BL and for example, because of difficulties as to identity, ownership MAS will provide Manufacturing Insight with useful or location of assets and in some circumstances legal examples of companies who are successful and demonstrate action may be necessary. In other cases the nature of the the way in which manufacturing has moved on from the assets may be such that the interests of creditors are current public perception. best served by delaying realisation of the assets until some future date. Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, Iron and Steel Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff are planned for his Department’s Dr. Kumar: To ask the Minister of State, Department Manufacturing Insight office. [284374] for Business, Innovation and Skills if the Government will take steps to increase the demand for steel in the Ian Lucas: Manufacturing Insight will be launched UK. [282878] later this year. We are in the process of recruiting a director for Manufacturing Insight. After the director Ian Lucas: The Government have announced a number has been appointed, the Manufacturing Insight of measures that should increase demand for steel in the Management Board will approve a business plan that UK. In the pre-Budget report my right hon. Friend the will include proposals on the allocation of staff. Chancellor of the Exchequer announced that a fiscal stimulus, including £3 billion of capital expenditure Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, would be brought forward from 2010-11 to 2008-09 and Department for Business, Innovation and Skills who 2009-10, to support the economy.Projects include increasing has been asked to be a role model for young people as capacity in the motorway and rail network, improving part of the Manufacturing Insight programme. [284375] and building new social housing, renewing primary and secondary schools, and investing in energy efficiency Ian Lucas: Role models for Manufacturing Insight measures. In his Budget statement the Chancellor also have yet to be identified. Once appointed the Manufacturing announced private sector investment worth over £4 billion Insight director will work with the management board pa for 2009/10 and 2010/11 in energy (nearly 50 per on the role models that should be approached to promote cent. higher than five years ago). Manufacturing Insight. 989W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 990W

Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, CABINET OFFICE Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how eQuality Networks much has been spent to date on establishing Manufacturing Insight. [284379] Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what funding awards (a) the Cabinet Office and Ian Lucas: Manufacturing Insight will be launched (b) Futurebuilders have made to eQuality Networks in later in the year. The Department for Business, Innovation each of the last five years. [285470] and Skills has allocated £50,000 this year as a contribution to start-up costs. The Management Board will consider Angela E. Smith: Neither the Cabinet Office nor a Business Plan when the new director is in place, which Futurebuilders have provided any funding for eQuality will seek approval on spend. Networks in the last five years. Forensic Therapies Limited Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Mr. MacShane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet much funding his Department has allocated for Office how much has been paid to Forensic Therapies Manufacturing Insight in the next 12 months. [284434] Limited from the Adults Facing Chronic Exclusion fund in each year since 2002. [284772] Ian Lucas: The Department for Business, Innovation Mr. Ian Austin: I have been asked to reply. and Skills has allocated £50,000 this year towards start-up costs, as part of a package of core funding, which is to The project has been awarded £525,000 in total, to be come from the wider business community. paid by September 2010. Total paid to date is £262,500, comprising: Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries £

Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2007-08 87,500 for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what estimate he 2008-09 175,000 has made of the maximum number of car purchases which may be supported by the car scrappage scheme; [278768] CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES (2) how much of the funding allocated to the car Apprentices scrappage scheme has been disbursed to date. [278771] Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lucas [holding answer 9 June 2009]: £300 million Children, Schools and Families what proportion of (a) of Government funding has been allocated to cover a 16 and (b) 17 year olds are participating in small amount of monitoring and administration costs apprenticeships linked to (i) full-time and (ii) part-time and the rest to support car purchases. Over 94,000 jobs. [282734] orders for new vehicles have been taken since the scheme was announced in the Budget and over £14 million has Mr. Iain Wright: In 2007/08, 33,300 16-year-olds, and been paid out by Government. 36,400 17-year-olds started an apprenticeship. Information on whether apprenticeships are linked to full or part-time Phorm jobs is not available. The number of hours worked per week is determined by individual employers. However, Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, in order to be eligible for public funding, employment Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what must be for at least 16 hours per week unless otherwise response he has made to the European Commission’s agreed with the LSC on a case-by-case basis. decision of 14 April 2009 to open an infringement Building Schools for the Future Programme proceeding relating to the use of Phorm’s targeted online advertising technology by UK internet service Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for providers. [280894] Children, Schools and Families whether energy efficiency standards have been stipulated for circulator Mr. Hanson: I have been asked to reply. pumps to be installed under the Building Schools for The Home Office expressed an informal view about the Future projects. [285063] targeted online advertising and RIPA in response to a Mr. Coaker: The Department does not stipulate energy number of requests. That note concludes that targeted efficiency standards for circulator pumps within the online advertising systems might be lawful if consent Building Schools for the Future (BSF) programme. Our was “expressed appropriately”. It did not consider whether approach is to set targets for carbon emissions by a the advertising system was either opt-in or opt-out. The combination of energy efficiency and renewable energy Information Commissioner has confirmed that consent systems. should be given on the basis of an opt-in system. We have developed guidance to help the designers of No discussions have taken place between the Home newly built schools achieve their target level of carbon Office and Phorm regarding the use of its technology reduction. This guidance encourages the use of energy for counter-terrorism purposes and none are planned. efficient equipment without being prescriptive about The European Commission requested a reply within design solutions. Additional funding has been provided two months and the Government have responded to all new secondary schools within BSF, academies accordingly. It would not be appropriate to disclose the and One School Pathfinder programmes to reduce their response while the Commission is still considering it. carbon emissions by 60 per cent. 991W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 992W

Children’s Play: Merseyside Class Sizes

Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, for Children, Schools and Families how much funding Schools and Families how many children in each local his Department has allocated for children’s play authority area are in (a) infant, (b) primary and (c) schemes in (a) Merseyside and (b) Crosby in 2009-10. secondary classes of over 30 pupils; and if he will make [282530] a statement. [277512] Dawn Primarolo: Following the commitments made Mr. Coaker: The number of children in each local in the Children’s Plan in 2007 and the National Play authority area that are in (a) infant, (b) primary and Strategy in 2008, every top tier local authority in England (c) secondary classes of over 30 pupils can be found in will receive either play pathfinder or playbuilder funding tables B13, B12 and B14 respectively of the Statistical between 2008 to 2011 through the play capital investment First Release “Pupil Characteristics and Class Sizes in programme. Maintained Schools in England: January 2008 On average all play pathfinder authorities will receive (Provisional)”. This can be accessed from the following around £2 million capital funding and £500,000 revenue link: funding, while playbuilder authorities will receive around http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000786/ £1 million capital and £45,000 revenue funding. Play index.shtml pathfinder authorities will use their allocated funding Although national information on class sizes for 2009 to deliver a minimum of 28 play areas plus a new staffed can be found in the Statistical First Release “Schools, adventure playground, while playbuilder authorities will Pupils and Their Characteristics: January 2009 deliver a minimum of 22 play areas by 2011. The play (Provisional)”, information for local authorities has not areas that are delivered can be either completely new yet been published. It is expected that this will be areas or existing areas which are significantly refurbished. published in late July. Local authorities have joined the programme, and so started receiving their funding, in two phases: Wave 1 Mr. Kidney: To ask the Secretary of State for started in April 2008 and wave 2 in April 2009. Knowsley Children, Schools and Families how many primary and Sefton are both wave 1 authorities, while the other school pupils were educated in class sizes of between three authorities in Merseyside (Liverpool, St. Helens (a) 20 and 25 and (b) 26 and 30 pupils in the latest and Wirral) joined the programme in April 2009. Knowsley year for which figures are available. [278337] is a play pathfinder authority and the other four are all playbuilder authorities. Mr. Coaker: The requested information is shown in the following table: The following tables show the capital and revenue funding allocated to Merseyside authorities and the Maintained primary schools1: classes as taught2, as at January 2009 phase they joined the capital play programme. Allocations (provisional) in England Number of Number of Percentage of for 2010-11 are indicative and will be confirmed in classes pupils pupils January 2010. Decisions on where the capital funding is spent within All classes 142,660 3,739,990 100.0 local authority boundaries are taken locally, based on 20-25 pupils 37,690 865,870 23.2 grant requirements around improved play spaces being 26-30 pupils 77,320 2,209,100 59.1 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. provided where they are most needed and based on a 2 One teacher classes as taught during a single selected period in each school on robust consultation process with local children and the day of the census in January. young people, families and wider communities. Note: Pupil and class numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. We are encouraging all Members of Parliament to Source: proactively engage with their local play capital programmes School Census as they roll out, and we are asking local authorities to Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, ensure that their local Members of Parliament and Schools and Families how many schools in England council elected members are appropriately consulted, have an average class size of fewer than (a) 15, (b) 20, and briefed, about where the capital funding is spent. (c) 25 and (d) 30 pupils in Key Stage 1; and if he will Wave 1 authorities make a statement. [276885] £ Capital funding Revenue funding Mr. Coaker: The requested information is shown in Local the table. authority 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Maintained primary schools1: Number of schools by Key Stage 1 average class 2,3 Knowsley 597,859 1,579,364 1n/a 174,768 219,516 111,344 size as at January 2009 (provisional) in England 4 Sefton 297,984 390,499 440,174 12,505 19,829 13,219 Key Stage 1 Average Class Size Number of Schools 1 Wave 1 play pathfinder authorities receive capital funding in 2008-09 and Fewer than 15 283 2009-10 only. Fewer than 20 1,301 Wave 2 authorities Fewer than 25 5,043 £ Fewer than 30 12,313 Capital funding Revenue funding 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. Local 2 Includes reception classes. authority 2009-10 2010-11 2009-10 2010-11 3 One teacher classes as taught during a single selected period in each school on the day of the census. Liverpool 535,824 603,984 27,871 18,581 4 Schools are counted against each relevant row e.g. those in ’fewer than 20’ are St. Helens 528,703 595,958 27,265 18,177 also in ’fewer than 15’. Wirral 530,952 598,493 27,389 18,259 Source: School Census 993W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 994W

Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government Finance Children, Schools and Families if he will estimate the effect on public expenditure of reducing class sizes at Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Key Stage 1 to an average of 15 pupils. [283913] Children, Schools and Families which (a) specific and (b) area-based grants are distributed to local Mr. Coaker: The additional cost for financial year authorities by each division of his Department. 2008-09 of the extra teachers required for an average class size of 15 for Key Stage 1 pupils is estimated to be [285051] around £1.5 billion. This estimate excludes the costs of additional support staff, additional classrooms and other Mr. Coaker: The following table shows allocations factors such as training costs of additional teachers. made to local authorities by the Department through specific grants and area based grant for 2008-09, the Demos latest year for which final figures are available, split between recurrent and capital funding. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for DCSF grants allocated to local authorities in England 2008-09 Children, Schools and Families whether his Grants Allocation (£ million) Department has any contracts with the think-tank Specific grants—recurrent Demos. [279517] Dedicated schools grant 29,137.6 School development grant (schools element) 1,915.0 Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department does not have Sure start, early years and child care 1,286.5 any contracts with Demos. School standards grant 1,190.2 School standards grant (personalisation) 355.9 Departmental Food Targeted support for the primary school 195.8 national strategy Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Ethnic minority achievement grant 184.9 Targeted support for the secondary school 109.5 Children, Schools and Families what percentage of the national strategy (a) meat, (b) fruit and (c) vegetables procured by his Music 82.6 Department in the last months was produced in the Extending and increasing flexibility of free 80.0 UK. [281948] entitlement for 3-4 year olds School lunch grant 78.8 Ms Diana R. Johnson: For the period 1 April 2007 to Extended schools—sustainability 73.5 31 March 2008, the percentage of British sourced meat, National challenge 54.9 fruit and vegetables procured by the Department for Youth opportunity fund 35.8 Children, Schools and Families’catering provider, Aramark, City challenge 32.8 was: ContactPoint 27.2 (a) Meat: 10 per cent. Consortia funding 26.7 (b) Fruit 40 per cent. Parenting support strategy grant 18.8 Short breaks 17.9 (c) Vegetables 60 per cent. Diploma grant 17.4 Key stage 4 engagement programme 17.0 Dyslexia: Teachers Free entitlement for 2 year olds 17.0 1-2-1 tuition and participation key stage 2 15.7 Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for early roll out 2 Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the Playing for success 12.8 statement of 30 June 2009, Official Report, columns Targeted improvement grant 12.2 165-80, on 21st-century schools, what the evidential Empowering young people pilot 10.7 basis is for his estimate that 4,000 additional dyslexia London pay addition 9.3 teachers will be required; in which local authority areas Activity agreements 9.2 he expects such requirements to arise; and what plans Targeted mental health in schools 8.3 he has to make funding allocations to schools for the Family intervention projects 8.0 employment of dyslexia teachers. [284062] Making good progress 7.7 Extended schools subsidy 7.1 Mr. Coaker: Of the £10 million funding announced Challenge and support funding 5.2 by the Secretary of State on 22 June 2009 to support the Youth crime action plan grant 4.5 implementation of Sir Jim Rose’s recommendations on Parenting practitioner grant 3.9 the identification and teaching of children with dyslexia Disabled children’s access to childcare 3.6 and literacy difficulties, it is estimated that £7.6 million Fair play pathfinder 2.8 will be invested in the provision of specialist dyslexia Friday and Saturday night activities grant 2.1 training for teachers. We expect that this will enable Youth crime family intervention project 2.0 around 4,000 teachers to train in appropriately accredited Information system for parents and providers 1.7 specialist dyslexia training over this financial year and Right2B Cared4 pilots 1.6 next. Staying Put: 18+ family placement pilot 1.5 Child poverty family intervention projects 1.3 We are working with the Dyslexia-Specific Learning 0-7 partnership pilots 1.2 Difficulties Trust, and other partners, to determine how Transport co-ordinators and rural pairing 1.1 to best organise the delivery of specialist training. We Intensive intervention project 1.1 expect to provide further details on this in the autumn. 995W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 996W

DCSF grants allocated to local authorities in England 2008-09 DCSF grants allocated to local authorities in England 2008-09 Grants Allocation (£ million) Grants Allocation (£ million)

Social work practices pilot 0.9 Youth capital fund plus 22.6 Work focussed services 0.9 Home access for targeted groups 18.0 Multi treatment foster care 0.8 Specialist schools capital 17.5 Virtual school head pilot 0.8 City learning centres 15.8 Fair play playbuilder 0.5 School travel plans 15.4 LA child poverty innovation pilots 0.4 Fair play playbuilders 12.9 Child development grant’ pilot grant 0.3 Fair play pathfinders 11.9 BHLP: children in care pilots 0.2 Targeted capital fund (TCF)—kitchens 8.3 L3 teaching and learning network projects 0.1 ICT: mobile technology 7.3 Teenage parent supported housing 0.1 Integrated children’s system 5.0 Parenting implementation project innovation 0.1 Short breaks 4.5 fund Information system for parents and providers 4.0 Gender equality funding 0.1 Targeted capital fund (TCF)—cookery in the 1.0 Total specific grants—recurrent 35,095.0 curriculum Total specific grants—capital 3,140.0 Area based grant Connexions 459.2 Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for School development grant (LA retained 168.3 Children, Schools and Families (1) what recent element) estimate has been made of the annual cost to (a) his Children’s fund 131.8 Department of distributing each grant made by it to Extended schools—start up 96.9 local authorities and (b) local authorities of Positive activities for young people 52.8 administering each such grant; [285052] Care matters 34.3 Secondary national strategy: central 30.0 (2) what (a) eligibility conditions and (b) co-ordination compliance measures are in place in respect of the Primary national strategy: central 30.0 expenditure by local authorities of each grant co-ordination distributed by his Department; and what recent Teenage pregnancy 27.5 estimate has been made of the annual cost to his School improvement partners 23.6 Department of monitoring the compliance by local Children’s social care workforce 18.2 authorities with such measures in respect of each such Education health partnerships 16.2 grant. [285120] School intervention 15.0 Flexible 14 to 19 partnerships funding 14.5 Mr. Coaker: No estimate has been made of the Secondary behaviour and attendance: central 13.8 annual costs to the Department, or to local authorities, coordination of distributing, administering and assessing compliance Extended rights for free travel 10.6 of local authority grants. Information on the eligibility Child death review processes 7.2 criteria and compliance measures for grants are set out Substance misuse 7.0 in departmental circulars which can be found on the School travel advisers 6.9 Department’s Every Child Matters website at: Choice advisers 5.6 Youth taskforce 4.3 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/everychildmatters/strategy/ General duty on sustainable travel to school 4.0 financeandfunding/informationforlocalauthorities/ childrensservicesfunding/childrensservicesfunding/ Preventing violent extremism 1.7 Child trust fund 0.8 Further details of the grants covering school funding Total area based grant 1,180.2 can be found on the teachernet website at: http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/management/schoolfunding/ Total Recurrent funding 36,275.2 schoolfunding2008to11/ and Specific grants—capital http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/management/ Devolved formula capital 802.0 resourcesfinanceandbuilding/capitalinvestment/ guidanceindex/ Building schools for the future 635.8 Targeted capital fund (TCF)—one school 435.4 pathinders Office for Standards in Education Children’s Services Sure start, early years and child care 295.0 and Skills Harnessing technology 200.8 Targeted capital fund (TCF)—main 170.5 Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, programme Schools and Families how many and what proportion Primary capital programme 143.5 of school inspectors working on behalf of Ofsted (a) Framework academies 101.3 have been headteachers and (b) have qualified teacher Extended schools (capital) 84.0 status; and if he will make a statement. [282069] Targeted capital fund (TCF)—standards and 53.6 diversity Youth capital fund 26.5 Mr. Coaker: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM chief Miscellaneous capital 24.8 inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the hon. Member and a copy of her reply has been placed in the Basic need safety valve 22.7 House Libraries. 997W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 998W

Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 6 July 2009: Mr. Coaker [holding answer 24 June 2009]: This is a Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as matter for Ofsted. HM chief inspector, Christine Gilbert, Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for reply. has written to the hon. Member and a copy of her reply As of 2 July 2009, Ofsted employs 443 Her Majesty’s Inspectors has been placed in the House Libraries. (HMI), including 82 that have a management role. Of the total, Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 3 July 2009: 245 (55%) inspect schools. The remainder inspect further education, work-based learning, social care and other sectors. All of the Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as 245 who inspect schools have teaching experience in one or more Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for reply. education sectors as this is a key criterion for selection to the role. 130 pupil referral units are recorded as having closed between I am unable to provide the information you seek about which 1 June 2004 and 31 May 2009. Of these, 54 were never inspected inspectors were formerly headteachers, as we do not record by Ofsted and 37 had received no more than one inspection. Eight electronically the career profiles of individuals. This information of these 37 were placed in special measures at that inspection. could only be obtained at disproportionate cost through a review Special measures is an Ofsted category, defined in the Education of each individual’s personnel file or by a request to each individual Act 2005, meaning that a school is failing to give its pupils an to provide the information. acceptable standard of education and the persons responsible for There are also 1948 additional inspectors provided through leading, managing or governing the school are not demonstrating our regional inspection service providers (RISPs), of whom 1567 the capacity to secure the necessary improvement. Please be (80%) undertake school inspections. I can confirm that almost all aware that the framework for inspecting maintained schools of these additional inspectors have teaching experience, as this is changed in January 2000 and September 2005. As a result, there one of the key criteria for selection to the role. However, there is a has been no consistent ‘inadequate’ category over time. This very small number who were former lay inspectors under the response is, therefore, limited to those pupil referral units placed framework for inspection that was known as section 10, superseded in special measures, as this category has been in use throughout by the current framework in September 2005. In the former the period in question. framework, each inspection team included a lay inspector who A copy of this reply has been sent to Vernon Coaker MP, was fully trained as an inspector, but had no previous experience Minister of State for Schools and Learners, and will be placed in in teaching or school management. Their purpose was to bring a the library of both Houses. lay person’s view to the inspection process. A few of the most experienced of them have been employed by RISPs as additional inspectors. Pupils: Absenteeism I am unable to provide you with the number of these inspectors as this information is contained in the personnel records held by Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the RISPs. It can only be obtained at disproportionate cost Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has through a manual search of personnel files. made of the number of school days missed through With regard to the proportion of additional inspectors who unauthorised absence in 2007-08; and if he will make a have been headteachers, Ofsted does not have access to this statement. [284293] information as we are not involved in the recruitment process. This work is undertaken by the RISPs. Mr. Coaker: In 2007-08, 9.6 million days out of a A copy of this reply has been sent to Vernon Coaker MP, Minister of State for Schools and Learners, and will be placed in possible 948.9 million school days were lost due to the library of both Houses. unauthorised absence, giving an unauthorised absence rate of 1.01 per cent. Physical Education Our focus is on reducing all forms of absence, not just a small subset. Absence rates are down from 7.41 per Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for cent. in 1996-97 to 6.29 per cent. in 2007-08, which Children, Schools and Families what proportion of means that on average there are 70,000 more pupils in pupils aged between five and 16 years spent at least two school every day. The issue is not whether the pupil had hours per week on high quality physical education and permission to be absent; it is how much absence the school sport in each of the last five years. [284769] pupil has. The number of ‘persistent absentees’ has fallen from 4.1 per cent. in 2006-07 to 3.6 per cent. in Mr. Iain Wright: The percentage of pupils aged 5-16 2007-08. spending at least two hours per week on high quality physical education and school sport as measured by the Findings on absence during the 2007-08 school year annual school sports survey conducted by TNS is as were published in a Statistical First Release in February follows: 2009 at: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000832/ Percentage index.shtml

2007/08 90 Pupils: Per Capita Costs 2006/07 86 2005/06 80 2004/05 69 Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for 2003/04 62 Children, Schools and Families what the average expenditure per school pupil in Hemel Hempstead was Pupil Referral Units in each year since 1989. [283677]

Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Coaker: Figures are not available for the Children, Schools and Families how many pupil parliamentary constituency of Hemel Hempstead as referral units which closed in the past five years had data are collected at a local authority level. The available never been inspected by Ofsted; and how many such information on the average expenditure per school pupil units had received one Ofsted inspection and been in Hertfordshire local authority is shown in the following found to be inadequate at that inspection. [282023] tables. 999W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1000W

School based expenditure per pupil in local authority maintained schools in Hertfordshire 1992-93 to 2007-08 1992-93 1993-94 1994-95 1995-96 1996-97 1997-98 1998-99 Total Total Total Total Total Total Total (including (including (including (including (including (including (including pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary)

919 Hertfordshire 1,950 1,970 2,050 2,120 2,190 2,150 2,270

1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 Total (including Total (excluding Total (including Total (excluding Total (including Total (excluding pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary)

919 Hertfordshire 2,360 2,350 2,540 2,520 2,840 2,820

2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Total Total Total Total Total Total (excluding (excluding (excluding (excluding (excluding (excluding pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary) pre-primary)

919 Hertfordshire 2,910 3,170 3,380 3,610 4,020 4,040 Notes: 1. School based expenditure includes only expenditure incurred directly by the schools. This includes the pay of teachers and school-based support staff, school premises costs, books and equipment, and certain other supplies and services, less any capital items funded from recurrent spending and income from sales, fees and charges and rents and rates. This excludes the central cost of support services such as home to school transport, local authority administration and the financing of capital expenditure. 2. 1999-2000 saw a change in data source when the data collection moved from the RO1 form collected by the ODPM to the Section 52 form from the DFES. 2002-03 saw a further break in the time series following the introduction of Consistent Financial Reporting (CFR) and the associated restructuring of the outturn tables. Each table represents a change in source. From 2002-03 school based expenditure is taken from Section 52 Outturn Table A line 51 net current expenditure (NCE). For 2001-02 and earlier years the expenditure is calculated as lines 1 to 12 less lines 29, 30, 35 and 37. This differs from the old Net Institutional Expenditure (NIE) calculation only in the treatment of meals and milk which is no longer excluded and no adjustments for balances are now made. This is taken from Section 52 Outturn Table 3 for 1999-2000 to 2001-02 and from the RO1 form previously. 3. The calculation for 2002-03 onwards is broadly similar to the calculation in previous years. However, 2001-02 and earlier years includes all premature retirement compensation (PRC) and Crombie payments, mandatory PRC payments and other indirect employee expenses. In 2001-02 this accounted for approximately £70 per pupil. From 2002-03 onwards only the schools element of these categories is included and this accounted for approximately £50 per pupil of the 2002-03 total. Also, for some LAs, expenditure that had previously been attributed to the school sectors was reported within the LA part of the form from 2002-03, though thisisnot quantifiable from existing sources. 4. Pupil numbers include only those pupils attending maintained establishments within each sector and are drawn from the DFES Annual Schools Census adjusted to be on a financial year basis. 5. Local government reorganisation (LGR) took place during the mid to late 1990’s and those LAs that did not exist either pre or post LGR are shaded out for those years. 6. Spending in 1997-98 reflects the transfer of monies from local government to central Government for the nursery vouchers scheme. These were returned to local government from 1998-99. 7. The 1999-2000 figures reflect the return of GM schools to local authority maintenance. Consequently LAs where there entire pupil provision were educatedinGM schools will show a unit cost of zero prior to 1999-2000. 8. Expenditure was not distinguished between the pre-primary and primary sectors until the inception of Section 52 for financial year 1999-2000. 9. School based expenditure in LA maintained nursery schools was not recorded in 2002-03 and comparable figures are not available for 2003-04 onwards. 10. Figures are rounded to the nearest £10. Cash terms figures as reported by local authorities as at 30 June 2009.

School Leaving Figures for results from 2004 onwards are not directly comparable with those prior to 2004, and care is needed in interpreting trends in the data. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many and what The national results at Key Stage 1 from 1998-2008 proportion of pupils left school without achieving can be found in the following publications. These show Level 4 in (a) mathematics and (b) English in each of for seven year-olds, the level distribution at key Stage 1. the last 10 years. [284744] Publication Link

Mr. Coaker: Schooling is compulsory until the end of 1998 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000053/ Key Stage 4, so no pupils left school without completing index.shtml Key Stage 1. 1999 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000164/ The National Curriculum standards have been designed index.shtml so that most pupils will progress by approximately one 2000 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000262/ level every two years. This means that by the end of index.shtml 2001 http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000333/ KS1, pupils are expected to reach Level 2. index.shtml Since 2005, the Department only published teacher 2002 http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000356/ assessment results for Key Stage 1. These are now the index.shtml only results schools are required to report to the Department 2003 http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000472/ for Children, Schools and Families. In reading, writing index.shtml and mathematics, these results are informed by the 2004 http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000488/ task/tests activities undertaken by children during the index.shtml academic year. 2005 http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000635/ index.shtml Prior to 2004, both National Curriculum task/test 20061 http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000672/ and teacher assessments had been submitted to the index.shtml Department and provided complementary information 20071 http://www.dfes.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000740/ about pupil attainment. index.shtml 1001W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1002W

learn and achieve. This makes it compulsory for schools Publication Link to have measures in place to prevent and tackle all 20081 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000806/ forms of discrimination and bullying however, it is index.shtml motivated and to foster good relations between different 1 From 2006, only provisional results are published as there is little change from groups of pupils. provisional to final data School Leaving: Oxfordshire In March 2006 we published specialist guidance on bullying around race, religion and culture which focused on preventing and tackling racist and religious bullying Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for in schools and included specific material on bullying Children, Schools and Families who will be responsible related to anti-Semitism. We are funding the Anti-Bullying for ensuring that pupils leaving school in Oxfordshire Alliance and the National Strategies to ensure the guidance in 2009 will have a place either at a sixth form college is effectively embedded in local authorities and schools. or on an apprenticeship. [284964] We have also published guidance on promoting community cohesion to schools in July 2007 and an online resource Mr. Iain Wright: The September Guarantee is a guarantee pack in May 2008 to help schools with building of a suitable offer of a place in post-16 learning for all understanding and appreciation of others from different young people leaving compulsory education at 16 and backgrounds among their pupils, as well as developing all 17-year-olds. a shared vision and promoting good relations. Local authorities are responsible for delivering the Furthermore, teaching of the Holocaust is a compulsory September Guarantee. Successful delivery relies on a part of the history curriculum in secondary schools, wide range of partners, including schools, colleges, and we are working in partnership with key stakeholders Connexions services and the Learning and Skills Council. to ensure teachers have access to appropriate training Schools: Admissions and resources to help them deliver effective Holocaust education. Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, For the future, we intend next year to introduce a new Schools and Families when he expects to publish the statutory duty on schools to record all incidents of most recent national statistics on school admission; bullying between pupils. We will consult on this in the what the reasons are for the time taken to publish autumn and also on whether schools should be obliged them; and if he will make a statement. [282383] to report these incidents to their local authority.

Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department’s statisticians Schools: Expenditure expect to publish the release towards the end of July. They normally announce specific release dates at least Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for four weeks in advance but in view of the delay to this Children, Schools and Families (1) if he will bring release they may announce the specific release date two forward legislative proposals for the (a) monitoring weeks in advance. The announcement will be made on and (b) reporting of expenditure by schools at national the UK Statistics Authority publication hub release level; [284691] calendar and the Department’s Research and Statistics Gateway: (2) what mechanisms his Department has in place to http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/ monitor the performance of schools in relation to their spending. [284740] The decision to postpone the release was taken, by statisticians, because further analysis was needed to Mr. Coaker: Section 52 of the School Standards and confirm the validity of the results for the numbers of Framework Act 1998 requires local authorities to prepare admissions and appeals. Ministers were not involved in a statement containing information relating to their the decision and have not been informed of any of the planned expenditure as prescribed before the beginning results or analysis. A message was placed on the of each financial year and at the end of each financial Department’s Research and Statistics Gateway to inform year a statement of the expenditure actually incurred in users of the delay; and the UK Statistics Authority was the year in a prescribed form. The prescribed forms are informed. currently set out in the Education (Budget Statements) Schools: Anti-Semitism (England) Regulations 2008 (as amended) and the Education (Outturn Statements) (England) Regulations Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009. The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Children, Schools and Families what steps his Bill currently before Parliament includes provision’s to Department (a) has taken and (b) plans to take to replace Section 52. In addition, the Consistent Financial reduce levels of anti-Semitism in schools; what recent Reporting (England) Regulations 2003 (as amended) discussions Ministers and officials in his Department require maintained schools to prepare a financial statement have had on this issue; what recent representations he in accordance with approved headings and in compliance has received on this issue; and if he will make a with the normal established accounting practices of the local education authority. Copies of these returns are statement. [283708] sent to the Department. The financial data are validated Ms Diana R. Johnson: Schools are under legal duties and published. to promote both race equality and community cohesion. The local authority information is published on the Ofsted inspections include checks on whether schools section 52 website: are promoting community cohesion and providing an http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/localauthorities/section52/ environment where all pupils feel safe and are able to subPage.cfm?action=section52.default&ID=58 1003W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1004W

The Consistent Financial Reporting data underpin (2) how many faith-based schools have received the Schools Financial Benchmarking website. This site grants under both the Targeted Capital Fund and the provides users with the tools to compare their school’s Standards and Diversity Fund in the last two years. income and expenditure profile with that of similar [283938] schools so that they can make informed decisions on how to manage their resources effectively. They can Mr. Coaker: The Standards and Diversity Targeted tailor their spending and re-allocate resources to ensure Capital Fund supports our aims to improve choice and that education spending reflects local educational policy diversity of school provision as part of our drive to and priorities and is effective in delivering them. raise standards across all schools. It provides an incentive Benchmarking is not used solely to focus on reducing for local authorities and schools to work together to costs, but to also improve the quality and impact of a develop capital investment plans at those schools where school’s services. Benchmarking is a requirement for the investment coming through the Department’s strategic meeting the Financial Management Standard in Schools. investment programmes—Building Schools for the Future More details about the framework may be obtained and the Primary Capital Programme—will not provide from: the necessary resources required in a timely fashion to help raise standards for pupils. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/valueformoney/ index.cfm?action=Benchmarking.default The purposes of projects supported through the fund include: Schools: Finance developing provision at maintained boarding schools, non- maintained special schools and Music and Dance Scheme Mr. Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, schools; Schools and Families (1) what grants have been removing significant numbers of surplus places; allocated under the Targeted Capital Fund in the last helping to raise standards through increasing parental choice three years for which figures are available; and which of and diversity of provision in an area through the expansion of these were made under the standards and diversity successful and popular maintained schools; element of the fund; [283962] encouraging new entrants to the maintained sector (including proposers of new Trust schools and voluntary aided schools (2) pursuant to the written ministerial statement of and independent schools seeking to enter the sector) and 3 March 2009, Official Report, columns 49-50WS, on supporting federations of schools and groups of schools working schools capital funding (2009-10), how much funding together under a single trust. his Department has allocated to the Targeted Capital In order to maximise the impact of the capital investment, Fund to date; and what the likely distribution of such it is important to allocate funding to projects as early as funding is between the fund’s programmes. [284056] possible in the spending period. To date, 66 projects totalling £131 million have been approved in this spending Mr. Coaker: In 2006-07 there was a bidding round period. We continue to review the operation of all our under the Targeted Capital Fund (TCF) against published capital programmes and any lessons learned through criteria, aimed at raising standards through addressing this process will, of course, be reflected in the design of building need. This resulted in allocations of some future programmes. £311 million (with payments phased over the life of each project). Of the 66 projects approved to date through the Standards and Diversity Targeted Capital Fund, 18 As part of the CSR07 process it was decided that projects involving 24 faith-based schools have had funding much of the available resources available for new TCF allocated. The other main strands of the Targeted Capital projects would be allocated to those authorities who Fund are allocated at local authority level. were not yet in the Building Schools for the Future programme. This meant that 76 authorities were allocated This applies notably to allocations for: £8 million each to invest in their schools to address supporting the reform of education for 14 to 19-year-olds building needs concerned with the 14-19 agenda and/or enhancing facilities for pupils with special educational needs special educational needs and disabilities, totalling and disabilities, £608 million. strengthening cookery in the curriculum, This was originally phased to be paid as £152 million enhancing kitchens and dining facilities. in 2009-10 and £456 million in 2010-11, although the With all of these, it is the responsibility of the local subsequent fiscal stimulus initiative has now changed authority to decide priorities for investment of these this phasing to £303 million in 2009-10 and £305 million funds, including at voluntary-aided or other faith based in 2010-11. schools. The other main TCF categories announced through the CSR process were the application based Standards Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for and Diversity programme, through which £131 million Children, Schools and Families whether he plans to has been allocated in 2008-09 (with payments phased respond to the report of the Audit Commission on over the spending period), and kitchens and dining improving economy and efficiency in schools; and if he facilities, through which £150 million has been allocated will make a statement. [284689] over the spending period. Mr. Coaker: I welcome the Audit Commission report Mr. Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, “Valuable Lessons: improving economy and efficiency Schools and Families (1) what the objectives of the in schools”. Standards and Diversity Fund are; and what There are already a range of tools available to help assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the schools make the most effective use of their resources operation of the Fund; [283963] including financial benchmarking, the strategic planning 1005W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1006W guide, the Financial Management Standard in Schools bodies; from what budget the cost of such training will and the offer of a free one day consultancy visit on be drawn; and what estimate he has made of the cost to improving value for money. his Department of (a) funding and (b) monitoring the The Education Procurement Centre is working with outcomes of such training. [284069] schools to carry out procurement health checks which help to identify where savings can be made. The Mr. Coaker: The Department produced the Taking e-procurement tool OPEN has been developed to help The Chair programme for chairs of maintained school schools buy products online and compare prices of a governing bodies in England in 2004. Although chairs range of suppliers. were recommended to undertake this training, at the The report supports our position on surplus school present time it is not mandatory. We will be improving balances. It is sound financial management for schools this training so it will focus on providing effective to retain a small surplus from year to year, but revenue support and challenge to the head teacher and school funding is primarily for teacher and support staff pay leadership team and holding them to account. As with and to support the education of children in school. It all governor training, the costs will be met from schools’ should not be needed for capital improvement projects delegated budgets. As yet, no estimate has been made of given that separate capital funding is available. the cost of developing the training or of monitoring its outcomes. Schools and authorities must work to reduce high balances over the next two years. If total revenue balances Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for and the excessive balances held by individual schools do Children, Schools and Families what guidance his not reduce substantially by 2010-11, the Government Department has issued to local authorities on taking will consult on further action from 2011-12 to bring the account of the level of financial experience of total down. applicants for school governor posts; and what information his Department holds on local authority Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for provision of training in financial management for Children, Schools and Families if he will review the school governors. [284816] assessment process for the Financial Management Standard in Schools for the purposes of making available comparative data on the financial Mr. Coaker: The Department has issued no guidance on taking account of the level of financial experience of performance of schools in the same area. [284741] applicants for school governor posts. Mr. Coaker: The Financial Management Standard in The Financial Management Standard in Schools Schools (FMSiS) was introduced in May 2004 was and (FMSiS) was introduced in May 2004 which was intended is intended to help schools in evaluating the quality of to help schools in evaluating the quality of their financial their financial management. An independent evaluation management and to aid in training staff to become report of FMSiS, published on 21 August 2008, recognised better financial managers. As part of the FMSiS that the standard is helping to provide a consistent accreditation process, LA assessors must evaluate governors’ approach on resource management across all schools. financial management competencies to establish training In line with the recommendations from that evaluation needs. the standard will continue in its current form. We do not collect data on the provision of local Consistent Financial Reporting provides income and authority training in financial management, however expenditure data across a wide range of categories on a the Department has contributed by making training consistent basis for all local authority maintained schools funds in the region of £200,000 available to all LAs each in England. It is used within the Department and by year since FMSiS was implemented. These funds are external researchers for modelling the impact of new specifically used to train school staff and governors in policies. the successful implementation of the standard. The data underpin the Schools Financial Benchmarking website. This site provides users with the tools to compare Schools: Procurement their school’s income and expenditure profile with that of similar schools so that they can make informed Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for decisions on how to manage their resources effectively. Children, Schools and Families if he will make an They can tailor their spending and re-allocate resources assessment of the merits of encouraging schools which to ensure that education spending reflects local educational are in the same area to use joint procurement processes policy and priorities and is effective in delivering them. for contracts for provision of support staff and Benchmarking is not used solely to focus on reducing facilities. [284690] costs, but to also improve the quality and impact of a school’s services. Ms Diana R. Johnson: In answer to this question; The site is accessed by over 10,000 schools and local where a joint approach to procurement (or collaboration) authority users each year. is adopted, the benefits typically seen are: Schools: Governing Bodies Improved value for money; More reliable quality of supply; and Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Better quality of service. Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the These benefits are achieved by aggregating the demand statement of 30 June 2009, Official Report, columns for goods and services across a number schools and 165-80, on 21st-century schools, what additional offering that increased volume to a larger pool of suppliers training he proposes for chairs of school governing via structured competition. 1007W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1008W

The use of procurement collaboration to achieve Percentage of pupils who participated in at least two hours of high quality PE improved value for money, quality and reliability of and out of hours school sport in a typical week—analysis by local authority supply is a key Government initiative. This is demonstrated Percentage by the importance placed on the Office of Government Cumbria 90 Commerce’s (OGC’s) collaborative agenda. Darlington 89 Where this approach is adopted to a category of Derby 90 spend, for example support staff or facilities, an assessment Derbyshire 89 of the specific merits to be achieved should be undertaken Devon 94 prior to undertaking the work (i.e. a business case is Doncaster 81 developed) and the subsequent measurement of the Dorset 93 merits/benefits which should be recorded and reported Dudley 89 as appropriate. Durham 91 The Department for Children, Schools and Families Ealing 93 (DCSF) currently encourages schools to make use of East Riding of Yorkshire 91 contracts and frameworks that have been competed in East Sussex 93 the market place across a range of products and services. Enfield 94 Where arrangements for specific categories of spend Essex 92 have not been addressed by DCSF, a school will be Gateshead 86 directed to an appropriate collaborative contract or Gloucestershire 90 framework which may be owned by the local authority, Greenwich 83 OGC or some other public body. Hackney 82 Schools: Sport Halton 87 Hammersmith and Fulham 91 Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Hampshire 91 Children, Schools and Families what percentage of Haringey 91 schools in each local authority area provide pupils with Harrow 85 the opportunity for at least two hours of sport per Hartlepool 93 week. [285377] Havering 85 Herefordshire 95 Mr. Iain Wright: The following table from the School Hertfordshire 93 Sport Survey for 2007/08 shows the percentage of pupils Hillingdon 88 by local authority who participated in at least two hours Hounslow 91 of high quality PE and out of hours sport in a typical Isle of Wight 86 week. The survey does not collect data in the form Isles of Scilly 82 requested. Islington 89 Percentage of pupils who participated in at least two hours of high quality PE Kensington and Chelsea 92 and out of hours school sport in a typical week—analysis by local authority Kent 88 Percentage Kingston upon Hull, City of 89 Barking and Dagenham 92 Kingston upon Thames 92 Barnet 87 Kirklees 88 Barnsley 87 Knowsley 89 Bath and North East Somerset 92 Lambeth 89 Bedfordshire 94 Lancashire 89 Bexley 89 Leeds 91 Birmingham 91 Leicester 87 Blackburn with Darwen 89 Leicestershire 88 Blackpool 91 Lewisham 88 Bolton 89 Lincolnshire 91 Bournemouth 90 Bracknell Forest 89 Liverpool 89 Bradford 89 Luton 93 Brent 87 Manchester 86 Brighton and Hove 90 Medway 80 Bristol, City of 90 Merton 92 Bromley 89 Middlesbrough 93 Buckinghamshire 93 Milton Keynes 96 Bury 93 Newcastle upon Tyne 92 Calderdale 86 Newham 92 Cambridgeshire 90 Norfolk 92 Camden 86 North East Lincolnshire 91 Cheshire 92 City of London 60 North Lincolnshire 89 Cornwall 95 North Somerset 90 Coventry 87 North Tyneside 91 Croydon 88 North Yorkshire 92 1009W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1010W

Percentage of pupils who participated in at least two hours of high quality PE Secondary Education: Pupil Exclusions and out of hours school sport in a typical week—analysis by local authority Percentage Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Northamptonshire 92 Children, Schools and Families how many and what Northumberland 91 proportion of pupils who were permanently excluded Nottingham 88 from a mainstream maintained secondary school were Nottinghamshire 91 placed in another mainstream maintained school in the Oldham 93 most recent year for which figures are available. Oxfordshire 90 [285576] Peterborough 86 Plymouth 91 Mr. Coaker: This information could be provided only Poole 95 at disproportionate cost. Portsmouth 88 Reading 89 Secondary Education: Standards Redbridge 83 Redcar and Cleveland 88 Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Richmond upon Thames 93 Schools and Families (1) what proportion of the intake Rochdale 90 of each school in the National Challenge Programme Rotherham 86 did not achieve a level 3 qualification or above in Rutland 87 English in Year 6 in the latest year for which figures are Salford 88 available; and if he will make a statement; [282502] Sandwell 85 (2) what proportion of 11-year-olds entering a Sefton 91 secondary school in the National Challenge Sheffield 85 Programme did not achieve a level 3 qualification or Shropshire 93 above in English in Year 6 in the latest year for which Slough 87 figures are available; and if he will make a statement. Solihull 89 [282503] Somerset 91 South Gloucestershire 90 Mr. Coaker: Of the pupils taking Key Stage 4 exams South Tyneside 89 in National Challenge schools in 2008, 12 per cent. did Southampton 84 not achieve level 3 or above in Key Stage 2 English. This Southend-on-Sea 97 compares to a figure of 8 per cent. for pupils in all Southwark 88 schools. St. Helens 93 The National Challenge is a detailed strategy to Staffordshire 86 tackle the link between deprivation and low educational Stockport 89 attainment by building sustainable improvement in Stockton-on-Tees 91 secondary schools. The relatively low prior attainment Stoke-on-Trent 91 of pupils in many National Challenge schools has always Suffolk 90 been acknowledged, and the plans for many of the Sunderland 92 schools reflect support to ensure these pupils succeed at Surrey 88 KS4. Sutton 93 Swindon 86 Figures for the individual National Challenge schools Tameside 86 have been placed in the House Libraries. Telford and Wrekin 94 Special Educational Needs Thurrock 91 Torbay 90 Tower Hamlets 87 Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Trafford 87 Children, Schools and Families how many and what proportion of pupils with a statement of special Wakefield 92 educational need attended mainstream schools which Walsall 90 Ofsted has assessed as inadequate in each year since Waltham Forest 93 1997. [282016] Wandsworth 88 Warrington 96 Ms Diana R. Johnson: This is a matter for Ofsted. Warwickshire 91 HM chief inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to West Berkshire 91 the hon. Member and a copy of her reply has been West Sussex 88 placed in the House Libraries. Westminster 93 Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 30 June 2009: Wigan 91 Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as Wiltshire 93 Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for reply. Windsor and Maidenhead 92 Table A shows how many pupils with statements of special Wirral 89 educational needs attended nursery, primary and secondary schools Wokingham 95 which were in special measures at the end of each academic year Wolverhampton 90 since 1997/98, and the percentage this represents of all pupils with Worcestershire 94 statements of special educational needs. The number and percentage Yo rk 9 4 of all pupils in nursery, primary and secondary schools in special measures are also shown for information. 1011W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1012W

Table A: Number and percentage of pupils with statements of special educational needs, and all pupils, attending nursery, primary and secondary schools which were in special measures at the end of each academic year since 1997/98 Pupils with statements of special educational needs All pupils In schools in special In schools in special measures at the end Percentage in schools measures at the end of Percentage in schools of the academic year In all schools in special measures the academic year In all schools in special measures

1997/98 3,768 141,410 3 149,733 7,598,190 2 1998/99 3,334 147,580 2 129,502 7,645,880 2 1999/2000 3,153 152,800 2 123,924 7,680,200 2 2000/01 2,703 158,000 2 107,374 7,699,990 1 2001/02 2,128 149,890 1 91,274 7,686,080 1 2002/03 2,386 150,910 2 92,040 7,677,900 1 2003/04 3,566 149,050 2 129,596 7,643,130 2 2004/05 2,823 145,040 2 106,672 7,589,720 1 2005/06 1,932 139,880 1 86,785 7,530,550 1 2006/07 1,715 132,270 1 84,273 7,466,950 1 2007/08 1,710 126,660 1 85,876 7,414,290 1 Source: Figures are based on School Census (pupil level) data from the Department for Children, Schools and Families.

Special measures is an Ofsted category, defined in the Education As part of this review we are investigating how best Act 2005, meaning that a school is failing to give its pupils an to provide funding for additional educational needs acceptable standard of education and the persons responsible for (AEN) and have commissioned research to investigate leading, managing or governing the school are not demonstrating such issues as the different types of AEN in terms of the capacity to secure the necessary improvement. Please be aware that the framework for inspecting maintained schools has level of incidence and severity; the best measures for been revised throughout the period in question, most recently in identifying pupils likely to under-achieve and the potential September 2005. As a result, there has been no consistent “inadequate” role of financial incentives in tackling deprivation. category over this period. These tables are, therefore, limited to The review is ongoing and it would not be appropriate those maintained schools placed in special measures, as this at this stage to pre-empt its outcome. We expect to go category has been in place throughout the period in question. out to consultation on proposals for a new funding Pupil numbers have been calculated using information from formula in early 2010, after which proposals will be the Department for Children, Schools and Families’ School Census further developed in the light of the consultation responses. (pupil-level) on pupils registered at one school only, and on pupils registered at two schools, but using their main school as recorded on the census. The census is taken in January of each year. Specialised Diplomas A copy of this reply has been sent to Vernon Coaker MP, Minister of State for Schools and Learners, and will be placed in Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for the library of both Houses. Children, Schools and Families how many people have entered for (a) the foundation, (b) intermediate and Special Educational Needs: Finance (c) higher diploma in (i) construction and the built environment, (ii) business administration and finance, Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for (iii) creative and media, (iv) engineering and (v) Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the environmental and land-based studies in each local statement of 30 June 2009, Official Report, columns authority area. [249104] 165-80, on 21st century schools, whether he plans to make additional funding allocations in respect of Mr. Iain Wright: The latest information for Diplomas children with additional needs who are not dyslexic. in Construction and the Built Environment, Creative [284064] and Media, and Engineering are in the following table. In 2008, Diplomas were available in around two-thirds of local authorities, as listed in the table. Most of these Ms Diana R. Johnson: We want all children to have local authorities have been approved to deliver one or an equal chance to succeed, but children from disadvantaged two Diploma lines. Young people have yet to enrol in backgrounds need extra support from their school to the Business Administration and Finance or the make that a reality.The current formula for the distribution Environmental and Land-Based Diplomas as these are of the dedicated schools grant includes an element to not being taught for the first time until September 2009. recognise the pressures faced by those local authorities with high deprivation. For 2009-10 the DSG included Foundation Higher Advanced £3 billion for deprivation. LA Line (L1) (L2) (L3)

We are undertaking a review of the dedicated schools Barking and Cr&Med 0 13 0 grant to develop a new funding formula which would be Dagenham available for use from April 2011. The aim of the review Barking and Eng 16 18 15 is to develop a funding formula which distributes resources Dagenham in line with relative need, recognising the different costs Barnsley Const 0 28 23 of educating particular groups of pupils and providing Birmingham Const 0 12 0 education in different areas. Our aim is to support Birmingham Cr&Med 43 84 22 schools and LAs in raising the educational achievement Birmingham Eng 5 52 0 Blackburn with Eng 0 6 0 of all pupils and narrow achievement gaps, particularly Darwen those from low income and disadvantaged backgrounds. 1013W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1014W

Foundation Higher Advanced Foundation Higher Advanced LA Line (L1) (L2) (L3) LA Line (L1) (L2) (L3)

Bolton Const 35 26 0 Middlesbrough Eng 0 36 31 Bolton Eng 0 23 14 Milton Keynes Const 35 10 0 Bradford Cr&Med 0 51 26 Newcastle Upon Const 0 19 0 Bromley Cr&Med 22 52 22 Tyne Bromley Eng 23 8 2 Newcastle Upon Cr&Med 70 18 17 Tyne Buckinghamshire Eng 8 37 0 Newcastle Upon Eng 30 24 27 Bury Eng 0 31 15 Tyne Calderdale Cr&Med 9 18 0 Newham Const 28 46 0 Cambridgeshire Cr&Med 0 51 16 Newham Cr&Med 47 54 23 Cheshire Cr&Med 0 31 8 Newham Eng 25 54 43 Cheshire Eng 30 56 6 Norfolk Const 79 53 20 Cornwall Cr&Med 9 130 26 Norfolk Cr&Med 12 49 18 Coventry Eng 9 96 0 North East Eng 0 18 0 Croydon Const 8 20 0 Lincolnshire Cumbria Const 0 15 0 North Somerset Cr&Med 0 74 11 Cumbria Cr&Med 0 14 0 North Tyneside Const 9 11 0 Cumbria Eng 0 22 0 North Tyneside Cr&Med 0 21 28 Derby Eng 10 17 0 North Tyneside Eng 5 19 0 Dorset Const 17 0 0 North Yorkshire Cr&Med 0 20 0 Dorset Cr&Med 0 28 8 Northamptonshire Cr&Med 0 68 0 Dudley Cr&Med 0 38 41 Northamptonshire Eng 0 8 0 Durham Eng 0 10 0 Nottingham City Const 23 21 0 Ealing Const 12 8 0 Nottingham City Cr&Med 4 16 0 Ealing Cr&Med 12 12 18 Nottingham City Eng 16 24 36 East Sussex Const 27 27 0 Nottinghamshire Const 0 0 0 East Sussex Cr&Med 0 55 28 Nottinghamshire Const 12 23 0 East Sussex Eng 0 45 0 Nottinghamshire Cr&Med 0 51 0 Gateshead Eng 0 16 0 Nottinghamshire Eng 13 14 0 Hackney Const 0 38 0 Oldham Const 11 0 18 Hackney Cr&Med 0 47 0 Oldham Cr&Med 15 22 9 Halton Const 12 13 0 Oxfordshire Cr&Med 41 0 0 Hampshire Const 0 46 19 Oxfordshire Eng 41 61 0 Hampshire Eng 0 27 0 Plymouth City Const 0 11 0 Haringey Const 10 16 0 Plymouth City Eng 10 48 11 Harrow Cr&Med- 0 6 0 Reading Const 0 0 24 Hartlepool Eng 11 19 0 Reading Cr&Med 50 24 23 Hertfordshire Const 10 47 5 Reading Eng 10 31 30 Hertfordshire Cr&Med 20 82 11 Rotherham Const 6 54 0 Hertfordshire Eng 46 80 8 Rutland Cr&Med 0 49 0 Hillingdon Eng 0 0 16 Salford Cr&Med 24 116 20 Hounslow Cr&Med 2 49 0 Sheffield Const 0 30 0 Islington Cr&Med 0 40 18 Sheffield Cr&Med 7 36 0 Kent Const 0 32 10 Sheffield Eng 0 35 12 Kirklees Cr&Med 16 38 0 Somerset Cr&Med 21 55 0 Knowsley Cr&Med 0 48 13 South Const 28 56 0 Knowsley Eng 24 48 9 Gloucestershire Lambeth (joint Eng 42 154 11 South Cr&Med 0 148 0 Southwark) Gloucestershire Lancashire Cr&Med 18 67 0 South Eng 14 53 0 Gloucestershire Lancashire Eng 0 15 0 Southend-on-Sea Cr&Med 4 32 0 Leeds Const 14 51 18 Southwark Cr&Med 12 16 21 Leeds Cr&Med 7 20 12 St. Helens Eng 0 17 0 Leicestershire Cr&Med 0 14 0 Staffordshire Const 0 36 0 Leicestershire Eng 33 64 8 Staffordshire Eng 0 9 0 Lincolnshire Cr&Med 0 83 12 Stoke on Trent Const 25 13 22 Lincolnshire Eng 21 113 10 Stoke on Trent Eng 20 25 17 Liverpool Const 9 16 11 Suffolk Eng 16 15 9 Liverpool Cr&Med 0 28 26 Sunderland Const 0 44 0 Liverpool Eng 10 20 14 Sunderland Cr&Med 0 45 0 Manchester Const 22 41 0 Sunderland Eng 0 56 0 Manchester Cr&Med 60 30 0 Surrey Const 0 15 0 Medway Cr&Med 29 29 42 Surrey Cr&Med 14 32 0 Medway Eng 0 33 13 Surrey Eng 19 44 0 Middlesbrough Const 27 31 0 Swindon Const 12 7 9 1015W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1016W

As we set out in our White Paper, we envisage a Foundation Higher Advanced LA Line (L1) (L2) (L3) ‘licence to teach’ being valid for five years, at the end of which the licence holder would have to undergo a Swindon Cr&Med 4 45 38 process of revalidation, building on the performance Swindon Eng 23 36 24 management arrangements and including other Tameside Eng 9 18 16 feedback. Torbay Cr&Med 9 88 18 We are mindful that this represents a major change Trafford Const 0 37 0 for the teaching profession and we will, therefore, work Trafford Eng 14 46 0 and consult closely with the many stakeholders here, Wakefield Const 0 5 0 including our social partners. These discussions will Walsall Cr&Med 0 52 0 help inform the precise shape and details of the ‘licence Waltham Forest Cr&Med 0 35 0 to teach’ including: whether or not we set a minimum West Sussex Const 0 10 0 number of hours of teaching practice to keep the licence West Sussex Eng 12 9 0 current; and what arrangements we may make to enable Wiltshire Const 1 7 0 teachers from overseas to obtain the licence to teach. Wiltshire Cr&Med 15 51 0 Wiltshire Eng 0 9 0 In relation to cost, all qualified teachers working in Wolverhampton Const 0 18 0 maintained schools, non-maintained special schools and Wolverhampton Cr&Med 0 63 51 short stay schools (formerly pupil referral units) are Wolverhampton Eng 27 24 0 currently required to pay an annual fee to the General Worcestershire Const 31 27 0 Teaching Council for England (GTC) in order to be Worcestershire Cr&Med 0 25 11 fully registered with the GTC. Worcestershire Eng 12 13 0 This provides them with the right to teach in the York City Eng 0 51 23 maintained sector. The fee must also be paid by those teachers who work in academies who have to pay the fee as part of their employment contract, and any other Teachers: Licensing teachers who wish to register with the GTC. As part of consulting stakeholders, we will consider how the ‘licence to teach’ will interact with the current annual registration Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for fee and will be seeking the views of the profession Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the before making a final decision. statement of 30 June 2009, Official Report, columns 165-80, on 21st century schools, (1) what process a Teaching Methods prospective teacher will be required to follow to obtain a licence to teach; whether a licence to teach will be Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for required of holders of a postgraduate certificate of Children, Schools and Families (1) pursuant to the education qualification; how often the licence to teach Statement of 30 June 2009, Official Report, columns will have to be renewed; whether he proposes that a 165-80, on 21st century schools, what estimate he has teacher should undertake a minimum number of hours made of the cost to his Department of implementation of teaching to keep the licence to teach; whether of his proposals for one-to-one tuition at (a) primary teachers will be required to make a payment to obtain a and (b) secondary level; and how many hours of such licence to teach; and what estimate he has made of the tuition per pupil per week he plans to provide; [284063] cost to his Department of administering the licence to teach scheme in the first 12 months of operation; (2) pursuant to the Statement of 30 June 2009, [284065] Official Report, columns 165-80, on 21st century schools, what estimate he has made of the number of (2) what arrangements he plans to make to enable pupils between Years 3 and 6 who will require teachers from overseas to obtain the licence to teach. additional one-to-one tuition in (a) English and (b) [284066] mathematics in each of the next three years; how many hours of additional tuition per child he expects to Mr. Coaker: Initial details of our plans for the roll-out provide; and how much he plans to allocate to the of a ‘licence to teach’ were set out in our White Paper budgets of (i) primary and (ii) secondary schools to ‘Your child, your schools, our future’ published on fund such tuition. [284067] 30 June 2009. In setting up specific arrangements, we want to build on the best elements of the existing Ms Diana R. Johnson: One-to-one tuition is already registration arrangements for teachers but place more being implemented nationally. In the spring and summer emphasis on a teacher’s record of professional development terms 2009 we have allocated £15 million to support and practice. 36,000 pupils in years 5 and 6. In 2009-10 we are Our intention is to begin to roll out the new arrangements providing £138 million to support around 150,000 pupils for qualified teachers and head teachers teaching in in each of English and mathematics across key stage 2, maintained schools, non-maintained special schools and key stage 3 (and in national challenge schools key short stay schools (formerly pupil referral units) from Stage 4). In 2010-11 £315 million is available to offer September 2010. We envisage that, as with current one-to-one tuition to 300,000 pupils in English and registration arrangements for teachers, the ’licence to 300,000 pupils in mathematics across primary and teach’ will follow the award of Qualified Teacher Status secondary schools. (QTS) and any qualification, for example a Post Graduate It is for local authorities working with their schools Certificate in Education, that a teacher may have attained to identify the pupils in each of the key stages who as part of their initial teacher training. should benefit from the additional funding for one-to-one 1017W Written Answers9 JULY 2009 Written Answers 1018W tuition that we have provided. Local authorities will be paid in arrears. However, funding may be paid in advance responsible for allocating funding to their schools to when a request is made and a clear need for advance support these pupils. payment can be shown. Once they are identified for one-to-one tuition pupils The funding offered will reflect the full cost of the receive 10 hours of additional support. service, including legitimate overhead costs and is paid for up to three years. Third Sector Contract funds adhere to Government procurement policy, based on value for money, and the EU procurement Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, rules. This ensures that all sectors within the market are Schools and Families what terms and conditions are set treated equally. by his Department in relation to the provision of DCSF guidance reflects the recent guidelines on funding from his Department’s budget to (a) charities, proportionate monitoring issued by the Cabinet Office. (b) voluntary organisations and (c) social enterprises. Monitoring must be proportionate to the risks and [284210] benefits involved. Young People: Unemployed Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF) does not make a distinction between (a) charities, (b) voluntary organisations or Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) social enterprises in relation to provision of grant Children, Schools and Families how many and what funding. As per the Cabinet Office definition, DCSF proportion of people aged 16 to 24 years were not in regards charities, voluntary organisations or social education, employment or training in each region in enterprises as Third Sector Organisations. the first quarter of 2009. [280896] The DCSF pays most of its funds through local Mr. Iain Wright: The following table shows estimates authorities and children’s centres. These organisations taken from the Labour Force Survey (LFS) of the commission locally, thereby benefiting the local third number and proportion of people of academic age1 16 sector. to 24 who were not in education, employment or training DCSF has two established grant funding agreement in the first quarter of 2009, by region. templates covering funding under and over £200,000. 1 Academic age is defined as age at the start of the academic year, Managers responsible for the management of a grant 31 August. programme have the flexibility to decide which agreement 16 to 24-year-olds not in employment, education or training by region, Q1 2009 template to use, based on the level of the agreed funding. Proportion Each grant funding agreement has clearly defined terms Number (percentage) and conditions governing funding including: North East 57,000 18 how the grant should be used North West 156,000 18 responsibilities and accountabilities of the grant recipient Yorkshire and Humberside 107,000 16 terms and conditions of payment East Midlands 69,000 13 Intellectual property right arrangements West Midlands 126,000 20 capital asset management East of England 83,000 14 London 127,000 14 access to information in order to monitor compliance and performance South East 130,000 14 South West 78,000 14 accounting and financial management controls and Note: repayment of unspent funds. It is important to note that as with all survey estimates these estimates from the LFS are subject to sampling error. The confidence interval for regional Grant funds are never paid before they have been estimates of NEET is typically plus or minus 2 to 3 percentage points. Figures formally approved and the grant recipient has accepted should therefore be treated with caution. the terms and conditions of the grant agreement by Source: signing and returning the agreement. Funding is usually Labour Force Survey

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 9 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1111 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Carbon Capture and Storage ...... 1119 Fuel Poverty...... 1116 Climate Change ...... 1115 Home Energy Efficiency ...... 1113 Climate Change (Public Awareness)...... 1123 Low-carbon Economy (Employment

CO2 Emissions Targets (Skills)...... 1122 Opportunities) ...... 1124 Domestic Energy Tariffs ...... 1111 Renewable Energy...... 1121 Electricity Generation (Coal) ...... 1125 River Severn Estuary (Barrage)...... 1118 Energy (Waste Facilities)...... 1117 Topical Questions ...... 1125 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 9 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 47WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— RDA Board Chairs ...... 47WS continued Centre for Environment, Fisheries and CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 47WS Aquaculture Science ...... 54WS Schools Teachers’ Review Body FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 55WS Recommendations ...... 47WS Bletchley Park Commemorative Badge ...... 55WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 50WS HEALTH...... 55WS Migration Impacts Fund...... 50WS Swine Flu Pandemic...... 55WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 56WS DEFENCE...... 51WS Youth Justice Agency (Annual Report and RAF Force Protection Wing ...... 51WS Accounts 2008-09) ...... 56WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TRANSPORT ...... 56WS AFFAIRS...... 52WS Smoke-Free Provisions (Ships)...... 56WS Agriculture Council ...... 53WS TREASURY ...... 47WS Campaign for the Farmed Environment ...... 52WS Budget ECOFIN (July 2009)...... 47WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 9 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 984W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued Astraporta ...... 984W Dyslexia: Teachers ...... 993W Bankruptcy ...... 985W Local Government Finance ...... 994W Bearwood Corporate Services ...... 985W Office for Standards in Education Children’s Bearwood Holdings ...... 985W Services and Skills...... 996W Business ...... 985W Physical Education...... 997W Business: Political Donations ...... 986W Pupil Referral Units ...... 997W Competition: Aerials...... 986W Pupils: Absenteeism ...... 998W Insolvency...... 987W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 998W Iron and Steel...... 987W School Leaving...... 999W Manufacturing Industries ...... 988W School Leaving: Oxfordshire ...... 1001W Manufacturing Insight ...... 988W Schools: Admissions ...... 1001W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 989W Schools: Anti-Semitism...... 1001W Phorm...... 989W Schools: Expenditure ...... 1002W Schools: Finance...... 1003W CABINET OFFICE...... 990W Schools: Governing Bodies ...... 1005W eQuality Networks...... 990W Schools: Procurement ...... 1006W Forensic Therapies Limited...... 990W Schools: Sport...... 1007W Secondary Education: Pupil Exclusions ...... 1010W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 990W Secondary Education: Standards ...... 1010W Apprentices...... 990W Special Educational Needs...... 1010W Building Schools for the Future Programme ...... 990W Special Educational Needs: Finance ...... 1011W Children’s Play: Merseyside...... 991W Specialised Diplomas ...... 1012W Class Sizes...... 992W Teachers: Licensing...... 1015W Demos...... 993W Teaching Methods...... 1016W Departmental Food...... 993W Third Sector...... 1017W Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Young People: Unemployed...... 1018W continued Central Science Laboratory: Pay...... 922W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 953W Exmoor National Park: Public Appointments ...... 923W Community Development...... 953W Floods: South West...... 923W Council Housing: Finance ...... 953W Incidental Catches of Cetaceans in Fisheries Council Housing: Property Transfer ...... 954W (England) Order 2005 ...... 924W Council Housing: Rents ...... 954W Marine Management Organisation ...... 925W Council Housing: Sales ...... 954W Origin Marking: EC Countries ...... 925W Council Housing: Standards ...... 955W Waste and Resources Action Programme...... 926W Council Housing: Stroud ...... 955W Water Charges...... 926W Council Tax ...... 955W Water: Meters ...... 927W Eco-Towns ...... 955W Wessex Flood Defence Committee...... 927W Energy Performance Certificates: Fees and Charges...... 956W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 946W Homes and Communities Agency...... 956W Afghanistan: Drugs...... 946W Housing: Finance...... 957W Aung San Suu Kyi...... 946W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 957W BBC External Services ...... 946W Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 956W Burma...... 947W Infrastructure Planning Commission: Finance...... 958W Departmental Finance ...... 947W Local Government: Bank Services ...... 958W Departmental Internet ...... 947W Local Government: Equality...... 959W Departmental Manpower...... 948W Local Government: Public Consultation...... 959W Diplomatic Missions ...... 948W Local Government: Redundancy ...... 959W Embassy Closures ...... 948W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 959W Iran...... 949W Non-Domestic Rates...... 959W Iran: Elections...... 950W Regional Planning and Development: South West . 960W Israel...... 950W Shared Ownership Schemes ...... 960W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 950W Social Rented Housing...... 960W North Korea: Diplomatic Service...... 951W Social Rented Housing: Construction ...... 960W Overseas Missions...... 951W Tenancy Deposit Scheme ...... 960W Pakistan: Females ...... 951W Spirit of Humanity: British Nationality ...... 952W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 930W Terrorism: Finance...... 953W Astley Park ...... 930W Big Lottery Fund: Campaign for Better HEALTH...... 972W Transport ...... 931W Alcoholism...... 972W Digital Broadcasting: Radio...... 931W Alcoholism: Accident and Emergency Members: Correspondence ...... 931W Departments ...... 972W National Skills Academies: Thurrock ...... 932W Departmental Finance ...... 972W Tourism: Disabled...... 932W Departmental Internet ...... 972W Departmental Procurement...... 972W DEFENCE...... 939W Departmental Secondment ...... 972W Aircraft Carriers ...... 939W Drugs: Medical Treatments...... 973W Armed Forces: Food ...... 939W Drugs: Misuse...... 973W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 940W Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements ...... 974W Army: Uniforms ...... 941W Heroin...... 974W Defence Council: Defence Ministerial Council ...... 941W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 975W Defence: Procurement...... 942W Kidneys: Research...... 975W Demos...... 943W Local Government Finance ...... 975W Departmental Databases...... 943W Meat Hygiene Service: Manpower...... 977W Military Aircraft ...... 943W Meat Hygiene Service: Slaughterhouses ...... 978W Military Decorations: Crosby ...... 943W Medical Treatments: EC law ...... 978W RAF Lyneham...... 944W National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse. 978W National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse: ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 968W Manpower ...... 978W Carbon Capture and Storage ...... 969W NHS Productivity Unit ...... 979W Climate Change: Public Awareness...... 968W Screening: Companies...... 979W Domestic Energy Prices ...... 969W Fuel Poverty...... 970W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 961W Fuel Poverty: Public Consultation...... 970W CCTV ...... 961W Office for Renewable Energy Development ...... 971W Community Policing: North West ...... 961W Renewable Energy: Consultation ...... 970W Community Support Officers: Equipment ...... 961W Renewable Energy: Electricity Generation ...... 970W Crime: Glastonbury Festival ...... 962W Sizewell A Power Station...... 971W Crimes of Violence...... 962W Smart Meters ...... 969W Internet ...... 962W Warm Front Scheme ...... 971W Knives: Amnesty...... 963W Members: Correspondence ...... 963W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Offensive Weapons...... 964W AFFAIRS...... 922W Offensive Weapons: Amnesties...... 964W Animals: Imports...... 922W Office of Cyber Security: Cyber Security Avian Influenza: Vaccination ...... 922W Operations Centre...... 964W Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT—continued TRANSPORT ...... 917W Police: Crosby ...... 965W Airports ...... 917W Police: Pensions...... 965W Crossings: Tolls...... 917W Travelling People: Caravan Sites...... 965W Cycling: Finance ...... 917W Cycling: Hertfordshire...... 918W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 938W Departmental Consultants...... 918W Parliament: Internet...... 938W Departmental Internet ...... 918W Departmental Secondment ...... 919W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 980W Heathrow Airport: Air Pollution...... 919W Departmental Pay...... 980W National Express East Coast...... 919W India: Overseas Aid...... 981W Network Rail: Directors...... 919W Kosovo: Internet ...... 983W Railways...... 920W Overseas Aid: Health Services...... 983W Severn Bridge: Tolls ...... 920W United Nations: Females ...... 984W Speed Limits: Schools ...... 921W Trams: Railways...... 921W JUSTICE...... 933W Transport ...... 921W British Constitution: Ministerial Statements...... 933W Driving: Convictions...... 933W TREASURY ...... 966W Human Rights Joint Committee ...... 935W Chief Scientist...... 966W Political Parties: Finance...... 936W Departmental Secondment ...... 966W Prison Sentences ...... 937W Euro Preparations Advisory Group ...... 966W Financial Services Authority: Communication NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 928W Service Providers...... 966W Bloody Sunday Tribunal of Inquiry ...... 928W Financial Services: Eligibility...... 966W Domestic Violence: Victim Support Schemes...... 928W Taxation: Repayments...... 967W Firearms ...... 928W Taxation: Valuation Office ...... 967W Northern Ireland Compensation Agency ...... 929W Working Tax Credit: Yorkshire ...... 968W Offensive Weapons...... 929W Public Prosecution Service for Northern Ireland: WALES...... 980W Equality ...... 929W Departmental Databases...... 980W Departmental Pay ...... 980W OLYMPICS ...... 944W Departmental Secondment ...... 980W Departmental Billing ...... 944W Olympic Games 2012: Ashford Kent...... 945W Olympic Games 2012: Contracts...... 946W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 984W Departmental Internet ...... 984W PRIME MINISTER ...... 927W Sir Alan Sugar ...... 927W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 930W Calor Gas: Canvey Island ...... 930W SCOTLAND...... 938W Disability Living Allowance...... 930W Scottish Devolution Commission...... 938W New Deal Schemes...... 930W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 9 July 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1111] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

Newspapers (Surveillance Methods) [Col. 1131] Answer to urgent question—(Dr. Evan Harris)

Business of the House [Col. 1139] Statement—(Ms Harman)

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism [Col. 1157] Motion—(Mr. Hanson)—on a Division, agreed to

Council Tax [Col. 1182] Motion—(Ms Rosie Winterton)—on a Division, agreed to

UK Manufacturing [Col. 1198] Topical debate

Nuclear Weapons Proliferation [Col. 1223] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Global Security (Iran) [Col. 321WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 47WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 917W] [see index inside back page]