PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 6 - TRANSPORT AND CUSTOMER SERVICE Wednesday 10 March 2021 Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio area CORRECTED REGIONAL TRANSPORT AND ROADS The Committee met at 9:30. MEMBERS Ms Abigail Boyd (Chair) The Hon. Mark Banasiak (Deputy Chair) The Hon. Scott Farlow The Hon. Sam Farraway The Hon. John Graham The Hon. Rose Jackson The Hon. Shayne Mallard The Hon. Mick Veitch PRESENT The Hon. Paul Toole, Minister for Regional Transport and Roads CORRECTIONS TO TRANSCRIPT OF COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS Corrections should be marked on a photocopy of the proof and forwarded to: Budget Estimates secretariat Room 812 Parliament House Macquarie Street SYDNEY NSW 2000 Wednesday, 10 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 1 The CHAIR: Good morning. Welcome to the public hearing for the inquiry into budget estimates 2020-2021 initial hearings. Before I commence, I acknowledge the Gadigal people who are the traditional custodians of this land and I pay respects to the Elders past, present and emerging of the Eora nation and extend that respect to other Aboriginal people present. I welcome Minister Toole and accompanying officials to this hearing. Today the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure for the portfolios of Regional Transport and Roads. Today's hearing is open to the public and is being broadcast live on the Parliament's website. In accordance with the broadcast guidelines, while members of the media may be filmed or record Committee members and witnesses, people in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of any filming or photography. I also remind media representatives that they must take responsibility for what they publish about the Committee's proceedings. The guidelines for the broadcast of proceedings are available from the secretariat. All witnesses in budget estimates have a right to procedural fairness according to the procedural fairness resolution adopted by the House in 2018. There may be some questions that a witness could answer only if they had more time or with certain documents at hand. In those circumstances witnesses are advised that they can take a question on notice and provide an answer within 21 days. Minister Toole, I remind you and the officers accompanying you that you are free to pass notes and refer directly to your advisers seated at the table behind you. Any messages from advisers or members' staff seated in the public gallery should be delivered through the Committee secretariat. We expect the transcripts of this hearing will be available on the web from tomorrow morning. Finally, could everyone please turn off their mobile phones or set them to silent for the duration of the hearing. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 6 - TRANSPORT AND CUSTOMER SERVICE CORRECTED Wednesday, 10 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 2 PETE ALLAWAY, Chief Executive Officer, NSW TrainLink, and Chief Customer Officer for Regional and Outer Metropolitan, Transport for NSW, sworn and examined CAROL-ANNE NELSON, Deputy Secretary, Regional and Outer Metropolitan, Transport for NSW, affirmed and examined PETER REGAN, Acting Secretary, Transport for NSW, on former oath BERNARD CARLON, Executive Director, Centres for Road Safety and Maritime Safety, Transport for NSW, sworn and examined The CHAIR: Today's hearing will be conducted from 9.30 a.m. until 12.30 p.m. with the Minister and from 2.00 p.m. to 5.00 p.m. with the departmental witnesses, with questions from the Opposition and crossbench members only. If required, an additional 15 minutes is allocated at the end of each session for Government questions. As there is no provision for any witness to make an opening statement before the Committee commences questioning, we will begin with questions from the Opposition. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: Thank you, Chair. Welcome, Minister and everyone else, to the hearing. Minister, is your Government still looking at redesigning the Regional Road Block and the Repair and Improvement of Regional Roads [REPAIR] grant programs? Mr PAUL TOOLE: I understand that there is a report that has actually come up in relation to the block and REPAIR reports and that is something that we will be looking at in the future. I do not think— The Hon. MICK VEITCH: This is the Deloitte report? Mr PAUL TOOLE: That is correct. I have not seen the report, but actually I am aware of the report. I am also aware that you should always be looking at grants of any kind, looking at how you can make them better, how you can deliver outcomes better for communities, and also how you can ensure that taxpayers funds are being used in the manner in which they should be. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: Minister, the report from Deloitte, which we obtained through the Government Information (Public Access) Act [GIPAA], is dated 17 January 2020—more than 12 months since the receipt of that document. How much longer before anyone knows what is going to happen? Mr PAUL TOOLE: I think it is fair to say, Mr Veitch, that in relation to that report, that report has come in. But I think you would understand that the past 12 months we have been involved in a pandemic so there has been a real health issue here in this State to actually deal with. The team from Transport have been focusing on making sure that there is a stimulus injection into local communities. There has been a lot of investment going out to councils across this State. There has been a lot of investment going into roads and bridges and it is about creating jobs in our local communities. Most importantly, those smaller projects have really been the focus of the department over that particular time. It is something that, yes, a report is there. Yes, it is something that we will be reviewing and looking at in the upcoming months. But again, our focus over the past 12 months— The Hon. MICK VEITCH: So it is still on the table for consideration. Mr PAUL TOOLE: It is there. Obviously, I have asked the department to actually provide a report to me in relation to what the findings are in that particular report. I have not read it. I am aware of it. I have asked the department now to provide a report to me as the Minister. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: Minister, I have read the document. Thank you for your people providing it under GIPAA. It does actually say there are some concerns about this process of removing, redesigning, rebadging, whatever is the end result. But on page 25 it says that some councils may receive a significantly lower funding allocation due to the revised structure. Councils will be very concerned to find out that that is a possibility. Is this one of the things that you are considering? Mr PAUL TOOLE: As I have said, we actually have to have a look at that report in detail. As you would know, as the Minister I have been very cognisant of actually making sure that councils have continued to get strong investment. I get letters from councils all the time telling me at the moment, "Thank you, Minister. We are receiving investment like this that we have never seen previously." They are telling me about projects they can do that they used to only dream of. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 6 - TRANSPORT AND CUSTOMER SERVICE CORRECTED Wednesday, 10 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 3 The Hon. MICK VEITCH: What about the block and REPAIR grants? We will talk about some of these projects later. The block and REPAIR grants— Mr PAUL TOOLE: I think it is appropriate, though, as you would be aware, that while we are looking at things like our road reclassification and things like block grants, all of that needs to be considered at the same time. I have always said I do not want councils to be— The Hon. MICK VEITCH: Sorry, I do not want to misquote you later on. Did you say that you are looking at this as a part of— Mr PAUL TOOLE: No, I did not say that. I said it could be a good opportunity to look at it at the same time. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: Good opportunity. Minister, what is the time frame then at this stage? End of year; part of the State budget this year? Mr PAUL TOOLE: I would say that any change to be implemented could be possibly a 12- to 18-month process. Again, what we would do is we would have to consult with councils. We would actually get feedback from councils as to if there are proposed changes as to what they might look like, and how they might impact on councils. I think that is pretty fair to say that we have done that in my space for most of the grants and the programs that have been running. Again, something like that that would see change, we would actually go out and engage with councils to actually ensure that the formula—talk to them about what the impact might be so that we are certainly not going to make it worse for councils. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: So you can guarantee that councils will not be worse off financially under whatever you introduce? Mr PAUL TOOLE: I cannot guarantee anything today because I actually have not seen the report. As I have said, I have asked that to come up to me from the department as a summary in relation to what that report actually speaks about. The Hon. MICK VEITCH: Is one of the things that has been considered as a part of this review or redesign of the block and REPAIR grant programs looking at councils, I guess, creating the ability for local employment opportunities, so that councils can select their own maintenance providers as opposed to the current arrangements? Is that one of the things that you would give consideration to? Mr PAUL TOOLE: I have not seen the report so it is not fair to speculate what is in it and what some of those recommendations are or what some of those thoughts are that might have been put forward by Deloitte.