PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 3 – EDUCATION Wednesday 3 March 2021 Examination of proposed expenditure for the portfolio areas EDUCATION AND EARLY CHILDHOOD LEARNING UNCORRECTED The Committee met at 9:30. MEMBERS The Hon. Mark Latham (Chair) The Hon. Anthony D'Adam The Hon. Wes Fang The Hon. Scott Farlow Mr Justin Field The Hon. Courtney Houssos The Hon. Matthew Mason-Cox (Deputy Chair) The Hon. Daniel Mookhey Mr David Shoebridge PRESENT The Hon.Sarah Mitchell, Minister for Education and Early Childhood Learning CORRECTIONS TO TRANSCRIPT OF COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS Corrections should be marked on a photocopy of the proof and forwarded to: Budget Estimates secretariat Room 812 Parliament House Macquarie Street SYDNEY NSW 2000 Wednesday, 3 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 1 UNCORRECTED The CHAIR: Welcome to the public hearing for the inquiry into the budget estimates 2020-2021 initial hearings. Before I commence it is the custom of the Parliament to acknowledge the traditional inhabitants of this land, the Gadigal people of the Eora nation. I do that with all due respect, as well as acknowledge other important contributors to the history of this site—those who constructed the Parliament House building, very often working in a dangerous industry, and the parliamentary staff who over many decades have supported MPs and made our work and representative role possible. We acknowledge and thank them all. I welcome Minister Mitchell and her officials to this hearing. Today the Committee will examine the proposed expenditure for the portfolios of Education and Early Childhood Learning. Today's hearing is open to the public and is being broadcast live via the Parliament's website. In accordance with the broadcasting guidelines, while members of the media may film or record committee members and witnesses, people in the public gallery should not be the primary focus of their filming. I also remind media representatives that you must take responsibility for what you publish about the proceedings. The guidelines for the broadcast of proceedings are available from the secretariat. All witnesses in budget estimates have a right to procedural fairness, according to the procedural fairness resolution adopted by the House in 2018. There may be some questions that a witness could answer only if they had more time or with certain documents to hand. In those circumstances witnesses are advised they can take a question on notice and provide an answer within 21 days—but not as many as Steffen Faurby on Monday, which was a tad excessive. Minister Mitchell, I remind you and the officers with you that you are free to pass notes and refer directly to your advisers seated at the table behind you. Any messages from advisers or members' staff seated in the public gallery should be delivered through the committee secretariat. We expect the transcript for this hearing will be available on the web from tomorrow morning. Everyone present should turn their mobile phones to silent for the duration of the hearing. PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 3 – EDUCATION Wednesday, 3 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 2 UNCORRECTED GEORGINA HARRISSON, Group Deputy Secretary, School Improvement and Education Reform Group, Department of Education, affirmed and examined MARK SCOTT, Secretary, Department of Education, on former oath PAUL MARTIN, Chief Executive Officer, NSW Education Standards Authority, affirmed and examined LISA ALONSO LOVE, Deputy Secretary, Education and Skills Reform, Department of Education, sworn and examined RUTH OWEN, Deputy Secretary, Learning Improvement, Department of Education, affirmed and examined LEANNE NIXON, Deputy Secretary, School Performance North, Department of Education, affirmed and examined MURAT DIZDAR, Deputy Secretary, School Performance South, Department of Education, affirmed and examined YVETTE CACHIA, Chief People Officer, People Group, Department of Education, affirmed and examined ANTHONY MANNING, Chief Executive Officer, School Infrastructure, Department of Education, affirmed and examined DAVID WITHEY, Chief Operating Officer, Operations Group, Department of Education, affirmed and examined MARNIE O'BRIEN, Executive Director, Health and Safety, Department of Education, affirmed and examined The CHAIR: Today's hearing will be conducted from 9.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. with the Minister and from 2.00 p.m. to 5.00 p.m. with departmental witnesses, with questions from Opposition and crossbench members only. If required, an additional 15 minutes is allocated at the end of each session for Government questions. As there is no provision for any witness to make an opening statement before the Committee commences its questioning, we shall begin with questions from our friends in the Opposition. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Good morning, Minister. The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: Good morning. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Good morning, everyone. Thank you for coming. Minister, how many schools currently have friable asbestos on their grounds? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: Thank you for that question, Ms Houssos. I will ask Mr Manning to make some comments in relation to those specific numbers that you have requested. What I will say—being an issue obviously that we have canvassed at budget estimates before—is that we know asbestos is a common building product that was used for many years. Many of our schools do have asbestos, but of course we have very good asbestos management registers and appropriate processes. In terms of specific numbers I will ask if Mr Manning has that or we will take that on notice. Mr MANNING: There are currently 352 schools that have friable asbestos. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Three hundred and fifty-two? Three hundred and fifty-two with friable asbestos, Mr Manning? That is a significant increase since we last met. Minister? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: As I said, we have asbestos registers in place to manage the risk of asbestos in the schools. I have full confidence in the processes that we have available. We have an Asbestos Management Plan and we keep up to date on where these issues occur at schools so that we can manage it accordingly, in line with relevant legislation that is in place in terms of the management of asbestos in schools. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Minister, when we met 18 months ago there were 109 schools with friable asbestos. You have just informed the Committee that there are over three times that amount of schools with friable asbestos. That is significantly worse than what was reported 18 months ago. What are you doing to fix the problem? The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: As I have said before in questions that you asked me in this forum a few years ago and I think in the House quite extensively as well, we have very strong systems in place to manage asbestos in schools, as we do with all hazardous material. We have appropriate processes, as I said, working under relevant legislation, including work health and safety [WHS] obligations. We are bringing in independent hygienists. If there are occurrences of asbestos in schools, we manage it appropriately. As I said in my original PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE NO. 3 – EDUCATION Wednesday, 3 March 2021 Legislative Council Page 3 UNCORRECTED answer to your question, Ms Houssos, asbestos is a common building material that was used for many decades, in many schools, in many public buildings and in many homes. I would say that probably even in this building there is asbestos present. It is about how we manage it, and I have confidence in the management and in the way that we run our asbestos registers in public schools. I do not know— The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Minister, let's just be clear, though— The Hon. SARAH MITCHELL: —whether the secretary wants to add any more to that. The Hon. WES FANG: Point of order— The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: The question that I asked you this morning— The CHAIR: The Minister was wrapping up, but I urge those asking the questions to give the Minister the courtesy of completing her full answer. The Hon. WES FANG: But also, the Minister was seeking to— The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: The Chair has ruled. You don't need to take up more time on this. The Hon. WES FANG: No, don't speak to me like that, Courtney. I am saying: The Minister was seeking— Mr DAVID SHOEBRIDGE: It is 9.33 a.m., Wes. The Hon. WES FANG: The Minister was seeking if there was any further— The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Have you got a point of order? The Hon. WES FANG: Yes, I do. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: What is the point of order? The Hon. WES FANG: The Minister was seeking if there were any other points that could be added to by the— The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Are you seriously going to carry on like this today, Wes? The CHAIR: Order! The Hon. WES FANG: Now I will take a point of order on what Courtney— The CHAIR: It is not a dispute across the table. I will set the rules of engagement nice and early. I will play the role of head teacher on this. I think it is fair to say I try to be a very independent, fair-minded Chair. You would have seen on Monday that I reprimanded a witness for taking too many matters on notice. I take an attitude that filibustering and time wasting can go too far and I will intervene. I believe that up to the point of the Minister completing the answer, the questioner should listen and pay that courtesy. To avoid the time that will be absorbed throughout the day with that type of exchange, I ask the Committee to trust in my capacity to keep order and keep the meeting flowing and get the available information that we need in budget estimates. The Hon. COURTNEY HOUSSOS: Thank you, Chair.