OH 37 Indian-Americans in Corvallis, Oregon “Histories of Indian-American Community Members in Oregon” Oral History Project

Date: July 21, 2018 Location: Corvallis, OR Length: 01:30:23 Interviewee: Sankar Chakrabarti Interviewer: Sravya Tadepalli Transcriber: Sravya Tadepalli

ST: Sravya Tadepalli SC: Sankar Chakrabarti UC: Usha Chakrabarti [00:00:00]

ST: So, can you tell me where and when you were born?

SC: I was born in India in the state of West Bengal in a backward district called Murshidabad. The name of the village is Azamuganj. I’m around 74 years now, so some time in late 1944, 1943. You know, in our time, in those villages, there was no way of registering birth. So there’s no birth registration certificate It is how it came down from my parent’s memory and the school certificate. But that was the year of the great famine in Bengal. It is called...it is a great famine in Bengal, it is a manmade famine. It wasn’t that there was a shortage of grains, there were plenty of grains. It was because of the British policy to feed the soldiers while starving the people. And the famine—5 million people died in a year. So that was the backdrop—people were dying and I was born.

ST: Why do you call it a backwards village?

SC: I’ll tell you a little about my village and you’ll see why you call it backwards. The name of the village is Azimgunj. Azimgunj is a small village, but in India, even a small village will have several thousand people. Maybe eight, ten thousand people. In our village, there was no metal road. There was a brick road and one...I think was gravel road. There was no streetlight of any kind. Forget about electricity, no electricity, no streetlight. Not even a street corner lamp with keresone. That should give you an indication as to how backward it was. And actually, it was 120 miles away from Kolkata. Kolkata was the big city. And as you go away from Kolkata, north side, it is all backwardness, deeper and deeper.

ST: And did the famine that happened in Bengal—did that influence your parents or did it influence your family in any way?

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SC: My parents have seen people dying, but none of my family got to starvation there because my father was a government employee. He used to work for the Indian railways—quite low-level, but still, there was steady money coming every month. That is why me and many other people in the village got spared of starvation. The village, by the quirk of the Indian railways, has two stations, just because the main line differentiated to go to two—one goes to the northern side, the other goes to the eastern side. And there, there were two stations. Azimgunj city and Azimgunj Chamshur. Now, most of the people in that village who’d live on the road which connects the two stations—now it is almost 70 years now—I do not remember—rather, I think, everyone who used to live their either used to work for the railways or support people, like running a grocery store.

ST: What were your parents names and when were they born?

SC: My father’s name is Madhusudan, Madhusudan Chakrabharti. And my mother is Shanti Chakrabharti. Madhusudan—my father—was born in 1895 in what is currently Bangladesh. It’s one of the eastern districts of Bangladesh, it’s name is Cumilla and the village where his parents lived and he lived for many years in his life is called Raipur. My mother is considerably younger because she is my father’s second wife. Shanti—she was born in Kolkata, the big city, and her parents were...her father was a lawyer. I don’t think he made much money at all.

ST: How many siblings did you have?

SC: From my mother, there are 6 brothers and 3 sisters. Just before our generation, big family was a treasure. In those days, the statistics were—for a man to have one adult son—one adult living son, he would like to have six kids all together. Because some will die, half of them are girls. That was the statistics. So though it looks pretty awful these days, from your point of view, that was the time when there was no birth control, girls were dying more in pregnancy, and of course, just the pressure of living, having an adult son survivor to help you in life—compared to that it is not a big number at all.

ST: So how was it like growing up where you grew up?

SC: Fantastic. If you want, I'll just tell you—the village part, where I lived up to my eight years, seven years—life was really a typical village—as I said, there were only two roads. In the evening the village was dark like anything. We had a nickname for the village, and this is how it was called in the village—I'll tell you because it was funny— the name of the village was Aadhar Damik. Aadhar means dark. Damik means jewel. So we were all jewels in the dark. Anyway, it had one primary school. I'll tell you about the primary school—you will see it both in its backwardness and in its beauty. My children still are very surprised. This primary school, I think it was up from 1-4, maybe 5, I cannot remember. But I was there up to 4. It was actually in a deserted cow shed of

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 2 | P a g e the local zamindar. He had lost his money as the country became independent, so he gave it up. He said, come on, this school can be here. And that place had only a shed, tin shed, but no wall. On four sides there would be class 1, 2, 3, 4, and in the middle a kind of courtyard. The classes would be here and there. Basically every class can see everyone else, and you talk and all that. But—somehow it educated us. It educated us to the extent it created such a foundation that we're still here today. It was not bad, it was just primitive. One of the most fun things in my school that I remember, it is still exciting you know—the whole village is on the bank of the river, and the river is Ganga. It was the minor stream of Ganga. Ganga is the mighty river in India. Somewhere 50, 60 miles north of our village, Ganga divided into two streams. The major stream entered what is now Bangladesh. We get the minor stream. That minor stream, as it goes down, it becomes bigger and bigger. But in our case it was pretty small. It used to be called Bhagirathi. The river is a major influence in our life. The school—cowshed, was really on the side of the river on the high ground. So one of the fun things is during the recess hour, we would open the door and we would go down the river. It was just one of the fun things to do. The teachers would tell, "no, no, don't go," but who cares?

ST: So what was your high school education like?

SC: I'll tell you a little bit more about this., because this is really, really useful. The river was a little—I mean, from our house, it was possibly a quarter mile. We often went to bathe in the river, but always with some elder brother because in the rainy season the river was big, more than half a mile. But in the winter, very small. So it was really very nice and two memorable experiences which relate to the river, it will really tell you how backward the place is. When we were in the fourth grade—in the fourth grade, you have to take a public exam to be able to be promoted to the fifth grade. And you cannot take the public exam in your village, there's no seat. So we'd all be hoarded in a boat and go some ten miles and there was a big school where we would have to take the exam. Just imagine! And then here, there is no school in Corvallis where you can take the exam, you have to take a boat to go to Albany! Can't imagine it. But that was also a very fun thing. One year, maybe I was five or six—there is—there is a festival in Bengal, it is called Rath Yatra, it is one of the festivals related to Lord Krishna. And there was a zamindar, again a landlord, devoid of land who was five miles away. And he would have a very big...what do you call mela?

ST: Like carnival?

SC: Carnival...but no machine. Only idols of many gods, goddess, Lord Krishna and his friends, depicting Lord Krishna's life. My brother used to take us there at night by boat, go watch, and come back. This is really happy memories. Although it was backward, it is not that it was blind or sad. It was very happy. About games; all games were just...run around. You have heard that there is the Indian village boys often play called gulli danda. I wasn't allowed to play because that was pretty dangerous, you know,

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 3 | P a g e people have lost their eyes. But I think when we were in fourth grade, our school; someone became very kind and could buy a football—called "soccer—" and gave it to the class. I was the keeper of that ball. And we would play, but where is the game? Where is the field? More signs of excitement and backwardness. There was no assigned field. Near the railway track—it is a very important thing in our village—there was an old cemetery—and besides this old cemetery, there was a little piece of land. And we went and cleaned it up and that was our game for the first six, seven months. It is really a great thing.

ST: Do you want to talk about your high school experience?

SC: In 1951, I was a seven-year-old—maybe a little more—in December, my family moved from that village called Azamuganj to the district town, whose name was Baharampur. District is not like district here; it has a different kind of jurisdiction. Here it is county. The seat of the county government. That is the same thing when I say seat of the district. It's name is Baharampur. You know how we came, how we moved from Azamuganj to Baharampur?

ST: How?

SC: River! We loaded everything onto boats and the river went. But it's a very happy experience. I still remember...anyway, my elder brother, he was allowed to swim, so he would jump from the boat and swim and swim along with the boat for some time. But we could only watch. Anyway, why I say...in Baharampur, it has to be said...you know, Baharampur was like a different world to me. Absolutely different world. There were so many houses which are—dhalan—that means which were big houses, not like my village, where there were two, three, four brick houses, which were hut kind of things. Not huts—Azamuganj was a little prosperous place because of the employment from the railways. But here in Baharampur, so many big houses. But my good friend, the river, was there. We came by the river, we went, and you possibly know that in 1947, the country got divided. I think at that time, my father bought a fairly rundown house. It was a big house actually, it was rundown. But he spent all his savings to make that habitable. That's how we survived for the next five, ten years. For the first time in that city, I found metaled road. When I went to the school, wow! It has a tremendous...even in West Bengal, that was a big school. You know, that school's name is Krishnanath College School. That school was established in 1854 by a local maharajah. It was his estate that established the school and the college, Krishnanath College. And that school was so fantastic. Just beautiful building, beautiful road. I was completely taken aback. This is what life is! But even then, in those days, in 1952 January, you'd have to take an admissions test. Somehow I passed. But that school was still some two miles away from my home. But by that time we grew up a little more and had friends. And after we come back from the school, what do we do, most of the time? Go to the river. Walk around the river. We grew up and we became a little better in swimming. One of the—

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 4 | P a g e apart from my academics, one of the memorable things I remember—in the rainy season, which is six, seven months, the river used to become very big. And of course the current would be pretty strong. So we, my brother, my elder brother, my younger brother, we would walk half a mile, more than three quarter miles on one bank of the river and then jump to the river from there, and then swim because...we were swimming with the current. It was easier but we would swim half a mile or three- quarter miles to go in the bath. It was one of the most happy things in our life.

ST: I think you mentioned it quite briefly. Did the partition have any impact on you or your family?

SC: This is...the answer to that is...to my immediate family, my siblings, my parent's children—didn't get affected adversely. But my extended family, who lived in Bangladesh, they got very severely affected. My father had many different occupations in life, but I think from 1930 onwards, he was working for the railways, and by his good grace, by God's grace, he was always posted on the Indian side. Of course, in 1930s, there was no knowing what is India, what is Bangladesh or something, but he was always on the Indian side. So when the actual partition occurred, although Murshidabad was the district where I was born, it was...there, you know, Muslim, Hindu, was probably 40 percent, 50 percent. Pretty sizable both. But because of certain things, Murshidabad was given to India, where we lived. God's grace. So nothing happened to us personally. And at that time, of course, I could not understand anything, but I remember 1948, '49, our cousin brothers, cousin sisters—they would come and live with us. That time we did not understand, "what is this?" But later it occurred in a few more years, when we could understand, oh, they were being expelled from their—my ancestral homeland, or home village. And that really affected them badly. Because as we grow up, we understand. Some of them were my age. My cousin's sister was possibly three, four years older than me. My father and my mother were very generous people, although they had a large family by themselves and their money was not coming from the tree, from that...railway job. They always looked after these brother's son, brother's daughter. Very generous people. I mean, we are not...although I am possibly 100 times richer than him, we are nowhere close to the generosity. So it affected very seriously...since my father came and I lived there...moved about my parents, and so generous people, no money...but when we went from Azamuganj to that Baharampur, the district town, my father deeded a small lot, a small plot of land, deeded to the maid that served us...God knows how many years. From my eye-opening I used to see her. She used to take me around. So my father didn't have the money, but he somehow found in his heart to take some money and give her a piece of land, and well-deeded so nobody would come and...and then when I left that place, I realized that from our village, some two, three miles...two miles...there was a village where most of the inhabitants were...are Adivasi. Adivasi means backward people. He gave enough land to build a primary school there.

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ST: Wow.

SC: And it's not that he had money! But they're very frugal people, they just do it and all. That's why I mean, I just came to the school, you'll see why it is...you are asking whether we were affected. Yes, we were affected in an indirect way because my father and my mother had to take care of the enlarged family from my uncles. But they did and I have never heard them complain! Never, never heard them complain, even after...when we grew up, 25, 30, when we could understand everything in life! Never.

ST: Can you talk about what made you come to the United States?

SC: Basically to learn education, basically to get more educated.

ST: So what did you want to study?

SC: You know, even before I came, I had received my PhD in the School of Physics at Tata Institute of Fundamental Research. You will not know what it is, it is better than Harvard let me tell you this. TFIR used to and still is the National Institute for Mathematics and Physics and it is also the cradle where Indian nuclear energy research was done. It's an absolutely fantastic place. When I went to TFIR as a graduate student, I thought I will not go anywhere else. It was so good, it is really so good. When two years into my graduate fellowship, I had an opportunity to go to Scandinavia for 2 months, it was a UNESCO scholarship that was given. That was the first time I saw what the world was like. It was fantastic, that's not important; important is our lab was better than theirs! Go into TIFR and it's a different world. The people are nice, the people are polite, the lab is well-equipped, and the continuous frothing of intellectual conversation. And it is in that cradle that both of us got our degrees (referring to Usha Chakrabarti, his wife). Just before, when I was almost finishing, there was this summer school in our institute on molecular biology and a couple of professors from MIT came to teach. And one of them I talked with because I knew he was a researcher somewhat close to me, and I told him about my research and I said that I really wanted to further it. On the spot I got the offer. He said, OK—you can come, at Harvard Medical School— Luigi, he was a professor at Harvard, he said yeah, you can come, I'll go and send the papers, and bla, bla, bla. And I come, I get stuck, and I don't move.

UC: He came as a post-doc at Harvard Medical School.

ST: So what made you want to stay here?

SC: Because...everything here looks so nice. It's not only clean, the people were polite, people used to work normally, life was a lot easier. It still is...you can drop your parents and they will tell you, go, I don't want to take your time here. In India, to rent a place yourself is a pain in the royal place. From top to toe, everywhere it is a pain just to rent

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 6 | P a g e a place. And here I go, it's so simple! Fill out the form, they check you out, they know that you have your money, you go. You want to go and do something at the Post Office, go and get it done. So the whole system worked very well. People on the average were very polite. In India...people inside India are reasonably unpolite. And that first...why go? Why go? And this incident actually sealed my opinion. Our daughter was born, Meghna; I used to go to the shop to buy milk or milk product or something, and oh man, there was so much! And I distinctly remember that for my nephew, when I went to Kolkata, by 4:00 in the morning I would have to go, stand in line, the shop will open at 7:30. Then I'll get a quota of milk or milk product. That picture was in my mind; it is a horror! And I said, see, compared to this here, tik, tik, tik, you go, pay the money, you're done!

UC: At that time, Indian condition was really bad—

SC: Pretty bad, it's not like today.

UC: There was a rationing and all you know, now it is better. But that time, everything was problem.

SC: Yeah, but I'm talking about that time. It is 1973, '74, '75. So I decided, somehow I'll stay. And then, by Lord's grace, it all happened. Slowly, it took time, step by step. It happened. The folklore—and it is the truth—I came to this country with $7.63 in hand. That's it; not a dime more, not a dime less. And don't think I'm bluffing—there is a book about me! Not about me, about people like us. And you can check it out on Amazon. It is called the eight-dollar men. You can check it out and you can read that book. Generically, we are that eight-dollar men, $7.63.

ST: Is that because that was all you were allowed to bring?

SC: Yes, yes. 65 rupees, Indian rupees, I definitely remember. 65 Indian rupees, whatever that translates to. And for me, on that way, Reserve Bank says, $7.63, take it, go.

ST: Were there any things that you didn't like about the United States?

SC: Actually...there was nothing that was difficult to adjust. This was laid out so nice. If you play fair, if you play honestly, you can go and do everything. What...in the beginning...is that there is so much! I did not know till Usha came or ten months after I came, because she had to finish her thesis and it took time...I remember I wanted to buy dahi.

ST: Yogurt?

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SC: You think it's yogurt! In Indian terms it is called curd. It is different. So I go to our local market and I search and I search and I search and I search and I search. There's no curd! There are all kinds of other things, no curd. So I told a friend of mine, oh, these people don't eat curd. What! It's called yogurt, stupid! It's called yogurt. There are ten different kinds of yogurt! 20 different! Those were the kinds of confusion. The other kinds...the first time I went to Sears, I couldn't find out many things. I needed to buy a bedsheet. I ended up buying a pillow and came out, because I couldn't find where the bedsheet was. There were so many things, so much...that for this village boy that was transitioning from place to place to place...then those were the kinds of difficulties, but they were happy difficulties. And never really had any particular trouble. You want to go by train, you just stand in the line, take the ticket, go! What's there? But not in an Indian line when you're always elbowing the other person.

ST: Did you ever face prejudice from Americans based on the fact you were Indian or you were immigrants?

SC: Good question. Really, we have been lucky. Especially in the kind of work that I have done and the kind of circle I've...there was no overt racism. The word is overt. What they say at the back is another matter and I do not know. But nobody has been...especially mean to me just because I didn't look like them. Except once. Except once. Only...when I came, within the next three, four days, I had to find a place, so my lab, Luigi's lab helped me...there was, what's his name, Jude. Jude used to...I did not know how to rent a place and all. Jude looked at the people and said let's go here, this place looks close to the lab. It was in Brookline, and of course the house was very nice. It was an old, maybe Jewish landlady. So she showed me the place and I told Jude, yeah, yeah, I'll take it. And Jude says, oh, he will take it, write her a check. So I was almost trying to write the check and the lady told Jude, oh, I'm sorry, I can't. I have already promised it to someone else. In my simple naivete, I said, it's OK, then we'll go. But Jude was furious.

UC: Jude was the guy who worked with him.

SC: Yeah, he was my technician. He was furious. She can't do this! This is blatant, this thing! So then he came back to the lab and our secretary was a Jewish woman, very nice, she heard it, and she said "Sankar! You should go and sue that lady!" It was in '73, I'm in the country for only three, four, five days. I can't sue! I don't know what is "sue!" But only later, slowly I felt that Jude was right, that was the kind of behavior that would go...in a covert way, I have seen while in Boston, we go to the rental agency to find a place. We would almost...and I have heard from other Indian friends...who (the rental agencies) almost invariably directed us to poorer, more mixed kind of neighborhoods. But we came here, basically with the mindset, of a student, I want to learn as much as I can, and by that time I was having a family. You know, save as much as I can, so don't get into that kind of nonsense. It is there. I know in India they also do their

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 8 | P a g e discrimination. But fortunately, in work area or even here, most of the time, most of the time, there is no overt, for those who are not Trump-kind, you know. Those are a different kind. It was a golden-America kind of…

ST: What brought you to Corvallis?

SC: Oh, fascinating. That's another piece of fascinating...some idea of a question of tribulations and all that. When I had finished my first post-doc at Harvard, I had published three reasonably good papers, but Luigi, my sponsor, he died. So I had to find something else. By that time Meghna was born and I had to find something else. And I got an offer from University of Oregon at Eugene to do some kind of groundbreaking work. I came to Oregon on that work. At the end of the year, I felt...I felt...that I was not bad in science, but the truth is I was mediocre. And I did not want to remain mediocre. I had other faculty appointments, but I wanted to be in the faculty in a place like Harvard or MIT, and I realized that I'm not that good. It was serious...my own judgment that you know, I'm good, but I'm not that good. So finally, you have to understand what you can do and what you cannot do. So I said you know, I want to have a new avenue in life and I...in University of Oregon itself, I just took some introductory computer courses and the computer science people do not like it, but I found it extremely easy. And also I figured out that you know, by being a mediocre engineer, you make a lot better life financially than by being a mediocre scientist. So I have to decide what do I want to do. I said I want a good life, number one. That is what brought me to Oregon State University, where I wanted to study engineering and science. So I came. I didn't fail in the exam, I passed, passed, passed, passed, passed. And before the year was out, I got the job at Intel as a summer engineer. And I was surprised how much money they gave me, you know it was a good amount of money. After finishing that summer work, I came back here to finish my other coursework that was needed. As soon as the coursework was over, I had made an application to HP, but I got a call from HP. Come *unintelligible* and I got a job! Can you imagine. Even I got a job! Even I got a job! And Sravya, that's it! We got stuck in 1979 December. And I began. And such a nice place! I didn't want to go anywhere else! At that time, I think it was still so...I had been offered several places, but I said nothing. It is such a nice place, the place is nice. This school was nice, the children were going through the school. So we got stuck!

ST: What was the Indian community like when you moved here?

SC: Actually there were very few Indians. I think we knew only four or five.

UC: No, there were about...total, maybe about ten families were Indian here, those days. The last maybe five, ten years, I don't know exactly, but now we have more.

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SC: I think the few that I knew...you know, Bella was not there...oh, Bella came. Because he taught me.

UC: Samidh was born.

SC: Bella came.

UC: Bella Bose. There were about eight to ten families, not more.

SC: Maximum.

UC: Now there are more, I don't even know a lot of them.

SC: Since I was a little older than more because of this kind of pathways, I used to tell my...when I introduced myself to others, I would say, you know, I'm the senior Indian resident in this town! Of course, I was not the senior. Chona was a lot older than me. But this few people that we knew...we, we got along with them. And since we were just starting our earning life, there was a lot of difference in the earning and financial capacity with the people. But that never affected us, frankly speaking. You surely know that people tend to flock to their own type, own kind. But we were not one thing or the other, so we just managed to go, but it was pretty good. It was very good actually, I don't have any negative impression or feeling about it.

ST: So what did you like and dislike about Corvallis?

SC: I already told you how many things I liked.

ST: So the same things kind of apply in Corvallis?

SC: You probably have been born here and grown up here, so you do not know any other place. So you have no scale to adjust. This is a pretty nice, clean place. It is very nice, you know. I think maybe 20, 25 percent of Corvallis people have college degrees. And it makes a difference. Whatever it is, it makes a difference with educated people around. The schools at the time were so nice. I was so impressed with the schools here. And here's another thing, why do you want to live in America? You see, in India, in 1952 January, I had to take an exam in order to be able to go to the school there. And here, Meghna becomes six, just walk with her, go to the school, fill in the paper, and that's it! They're all Wilson alumnus. How wonderful it is, you will not know till you have your children! Really, even the noise is so wonderful. Very slowly I found that this school was so good. The teachers were approachable and they would talk to you, anything about...it's good, it's very good. And now of course, you know what we're doing? We're trying to destroy it. Cut it out. Because we are saying that we will not pay taxes, we'll not do this thing, so what will happen to the school?

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ST: Do you continue to practice Hinduism in Corvallis and if so was that difficult not having a temple or anything? (Rephrased to "How has your practicing of Hinduism changed since coming to the U.S.?)

SC: It's changed a lot. That's mostly because of the environment. Hinduism is such that it cannot easily change. It's solely on your heart. Much of the Hinduism's rituals, you see, by what you think is Hinduism, those rituals are practiced differently in India. It's easier for you to understand that they're celebration rather than religion. It's celebration, celebrations. It is impossible to do celebration in that sense here, because the people are not there enough. And even if it be, I will not be interested. In Portland, we are devotee of...not devotee...our main goddess is the one that you see there. Goddess Durga. So in Portland, there is Durga Puja every year. For several years we used to go. But that is basically...95 percent of it is socialization, meeting friends and all that. One of your questions is having a temple, did it help or hurt or anything. It neither helped nor hurt. Even if the temple would be here, I wouldn't care. It's just...both here and also in Boston, there used to be a Durga Puja. Wherever there are 2 Bengalis there are three Durga Pujas there. We didn't have any problem. Even if it was not there, we would not have a problem. But it does always feel nice to let your children have some exposure. It always feels nice.

ST: How did your kids like living here and going to school here? And it was it challenging for them trying to manage two cultural identities?

SC: Yes. In a sense, the question doesn't apply to us, because our children have never been in India. I mean, they never got schooled in India, they were born here, they have been schooling here, maybe like you. And so they are no ways of comparison. The base of comparison is in us. As to in the school, I'm pretty sure you have also been faced directly or obliquely, people saying, what is your religion, what god do you...so we had to make a right decision. And our decision was that...you know, there is...behind all those questions or curiosities you have faced from your local American friends by the time you were in third grade to the thirteenth grade, there is the basic assumption that some of these certain people are different from most people. That's why they ask those questions. They are not trying to necessarily be mean. But that is why they ask these questions. We had solved this problem. Even before our children were born, I had made this as a mantra of my life.

We want to raise modern kids, modern children, modern people. Who are modern people? I told my children right from the beginning, even today, that a modern man is not an eastern man or a western man. A modern man is a rational man. That has been our mantra by which we have raised children. "I want you to be rational. As a corollary to that, your religion is science." You ask my children, they'll say my religion is science. Because that's the way I want to see the world, that's the way I want to understand the

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 11 | P a g e world. And rationality is my path through which...does that answer your question, to some extent?

ST: Yeah, that answers the question. Were you part of any organizations in Corvallis?

SC: Not really. I have donated here and there, but I'm not a karma yogi in that sense.

ST: What do you do specifically in your job? What did you used to do?

SC: First thing is to build and design things. Then after eight, nine years, I used to tell others how to build and design things. Even after that, I used to tell group how to do things. That's how I advanced.

ST: What was your specific title? Just engineer or...

SC: In the beginning it was engineer for some time, then finally I became peer manager. It makes no sense. Ultimately you want to contribute what you know to the company through your work. Labeling makes other people understand in their own framework.

ST: What were some of the larger trials or tribulations you faced in your life? Either here or before you moved to Corvallis?

SC: I won't go into detail because history is long. But really, after we came to the district town, as I said, Baharampur, economic hardships started visiting us. My father was the only earner, he retired, and he put his money...anyway, so after that it was...economic hardship for many, many years, and it continued. It continued for many years. But always in the brink of disaster but not in disaster. I must tell you how the family coped through it. It's very important, I think, for you to understand this. And through us, through understanding those eight-dollar men. Bit of history! You know what, my mother is a very determined, visionary women. What we are today is she. She is living through her. I remember early...maybe I was in sixth, seventh, eighth grade, I cannot remember. One day while talking, she said "You know, if it is necessary, I will put on a towel at home. But my children have to go to school." This was her mentality. And it shows! You know, along six of her own children...but if I count the other two from my father's first wife, we called them brother for a long time. For a long time I didn't even know they were step brothers. In all these there are two doctors, two engineers, one accountant. Everybody is...all my sisters, sisters, think of it. All my sisters, even the eldest one, they have in Indian term, "graduate degrees," they have master's degrees, master's degree, master's degree. These were not possible without my mother's initiatives, stamina, ability to harness resources from nothing almost. But still those eight, nine years before my elder brothers became employment-worthy and to gain employment, those were really times of tribulation. It was...every day was a kind of struggle and decision, how to make. After...in 1958, we went...we came to Calcutta

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 12 | P a g e because we couldn't stay in that district town anymore. No earning, no nothing. We were living in our maternal uncle's house. They were a little more rich, so we could eat. But sometimes we would sleep today in this house and then another day in my aunt's house. This description must be enough to tell you that it was a time of tribulations. But no missing college! My mother wouldn't take that anymore. That principle that I told you a few minutes ago? That principle was in our mind all the time. Although my mother, she didn't go to school beyond 8th grade, my grandfather was a...my grandfather was a lawyer, but what in India we call "briefless barrister." He's a lawyer, but he has no clients. Brief? Lawyers have brief? Briefless barrister. But he educated my mother a lot. My mother is not illiterate, nor she is ignorant. She doesn't have the high school degree. But she would read English, she even translated a book of poems from...you may not know. The name of this Persian poem is Omar Khayyam. He's a very famous...he...she translated that book in Bangla. I see...even in the rural village, when things all became very easier in '59, '60, of her age...every day she would sit near the window and read the paper. All that I'm saying is truly that all these things show what woman she is and what kind of drive she had and how that drive got materialized in our life. Otherwise...once more...none of her children are high school dropouts, college dropouts. Everybody has gone to college in different disciplines and become doctor, doctor, veterinary doctor, engineer, engineer, accountant. I think this is...for there, it's an absolutely great achievement. As you pass through it, I pass through it, we become parents, we can look at you, we can understand. It's a fantastic task, but it is not free of tribulations...at 8, 9, 10 years, it was pretty difficult.

ST: Kind of coming back to Corvallis, I think you've talked a bit about your kids and their religious identities. But how was it for them growing up here? Did they ever had any issues dealing with cultural differences or anything like that?

SC: I don't think there were cultural differences because Meghna here is pretty outgoing, smart, articulate girl. I don't think she had any difficulty. Maybe when she was in...when she was in the elementary school. Maybe some people...some other kid made some kind of comparison or something. She told me, I remember that, which had a racist intonation in it. But believe me, I did not understand that there was a racist intonation! One day I told this story to my friend Chuck, Chuck says, "Sankar, this is a racist thing!" I don't know. Samidh, when he was in seventh or eighth grade, two, three times, he complained that he was called names. I didn't encourage him to tell what the names were, I just encouraged him how to...how to tackle it. And that's where Gita comes in, how to tackle it. Karma yoga is karma yoga, you focus...focus on your karma, let the others do what they will do. There's a Hindi word, I'll tell you, you may not know. It says, "kutte bhoke hazar, hathi chale bazar." Translate, it says, "The dogs bark a lot, but the elephant mightily goes to his purpose." You understand? So I said...you are the hathi. You are the elephant who is...there's a lot of dogs. They'll be barking. That's their business. But I don't think it ever became severe at all, except in seventh, eighth grade. And the teachers were very nice. You tell the teachers, they do something,

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 13 | P a g e so that these things...and Samidh was so bright, he was so bright, I think other people were sort of awed at his brightness. Maybe that saved him, I do not know. Or maybe because the lesson I gave him, you are the elephant, those are the dogs. But really, Sravya, this is not typical of this country. In India also, you will go to school, people are always trying to hear the new term is common..."bullying," but people are trying to disturb you in some manner and you have to sort of give your mental shield. I think we have tried to give my children a mental shield. It is not *unintelligible* thrown at. But never.

ST: What businesses would you go to in Corvallis?

SC: I go wherever she goes (Usha). I think when we first came it was Fred Meyer, that was the main thing we used to go to. It was mostly Fred Meyer, sometimes, oh, no—

UC: Bi-Mart Fred Meyer, WinCo.

SC: No, no, no, I have to say, this is something pretty unique I think. You'd just see our family dynamics and that eight-dollar men! It will find...when Samidh became seventh grade, we decided that every weekend, every Saturday, me and Samidh will have a daddy, son date. And where? At that time there used to be Jimmy's Hamburger in the Albertson's complex. So that was our regular Saturday joint for six years. Because you asked, you know, what businesses would you go to. I rarely, rarely went to hamburger. Rarely. But that time, that was...if we're not eating them, there's another one, but this is between me and Samidh. Since Usha started working and you know, with two kids and working, it is tiring on a lady. On Fridays, gosh. Stories after stories come! I'll not take all your time. On Fridays, evenings, we thought that we would give mom a break and we would go out and eat. And where did we go? Ninety-percent of the time, Izzy's! So you said what businesses did you go? That's a business we used to go.

ST: What did you/do you do for entertainment here?

SC: During that time, really, I don't know, Usha is an avid traveler and she cannot stay at home often. So wherever...we were always going some place, but not really far. So essentially, going as a family was the kind of fun. I have not been sports-wise anything, so if that's what you mean, you know...what did you do for entertainment. Very rarely we used to go for movies because the movies we used to like are not here. At that time, it was not there. Now you see more because Bollywood is a lot popular now and all that. Rarely we have been to...English movies here. And we don't...at least me and Usha, we don't have any other activities like boating, riding bike.

No, I'm not kidding. First the thing which both Usha and me are there...Usha retired from her HP work in 2005. From there, up to 2017, we have been going around the globe.

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UC: Even before that we went. When I was working.

SC: I'm going to say, that's why I said there are two places. So whatever was in Usha's bucket list and my bucket list, we've exhausted. All the five continents.

ST: Wow.

SC: Including Antarctica!

SC: So where do you go? Name some place where we didn't go! There are certain places where we do not want to go, which are basically not politically safe or some things like that. But we have gone from the tundra to the equator of Africa. From the old temples in South Asia to Australia. In Europe, several, several times. Now that is...oh, we have been to China, up and down. In our bucket list, there is nothing else there. If we have to go somewhere, we just think where to go, here, here, no, no.

ST: What about in Oregon? Did you travel anywhere here?

SC: Yes, yes. That is one of the best times, you might say. When the children were small, we have gone camping many places. Many, many places there, camping. And I think we have gone eastern Oregon many places, southern.

UC: On the coast.

SC: On the coast. What is this...Columbia River Gorge. We have gone everywhere. In Oregon there is...I mean, I can't name. Every couple of weeks we say, let's go here and we take the car and stuff the kids in. Yeah, I think we have gone to Madras, Bend, Walla Walla.

ST: Yeah, Washington.

SC: No, no, not Walla Walla. It says...Wallowa Lakes.

UC: Wallowa.

SC: Wallowa.

SC: It is Switzerland in America.

UC: That's what they call. It's beautiful. It's not exactly Switzerland.

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SC: Very wonderful. We went camping there. It is very nice. I think in Oregon whatever place we thought that it is attractive, we have gone there. Of course my children have gone more because they have different kind of things. We go to Oregon Caves and all that. If it would be too deep I would not let them go to the caves, you know. This high cave.

UC: The water would come.

SC: Who knows? Who knows where there is a fissure?

ST: How's traveling back to India after traveling to the U.S.? Did you have any reverse culture shock?

SC: The answer honestly is yes. But it is not "shock" like a first shock. It is a reawakening of something that I already knew, which itself is shock. And most of the...the first thing is. The first thing is of course, is the generalized chaos. I go from here and the first thing you feel is chaos. Everywhere we were hustling, adjusting, trying to show that pride and all. We were standing in railway lines, in railway stations, buying ticket. To buy the gas. Gas *unintelligible*. That is one of the culture shocks. And the other thing is the generalized lack of public hygiene. Indians are great people. Really, I tell you. You must have seen your family when you go back. Inside the house, they are as clean as it could be. But you walk outside, it is not my house. That sort of shock now...because I knew it already...but the kids were thinking "how can people lead such lives?" But it must be natural because that's how a billion people live! I'm not trying to be...I'm not trying to complain. I'm just trying to say there must be underlying situations in the structure which make that possible and sustained. But that feels...generalized chaos, lack of cleanliness outside. Samidh noted it...and I knew it, so I didn't notice. And Samidh spent...three months as a fellow in Indian Institute of Information Technology. Not IIT, it is IIIT.

UC: Triple IT.

SC: It is a big institute. In Bangalore. He stayed there and worked and did some research for three months there. And when he used to tell me...I could see through him, he's saying exactly the right thing, but I couldn't see because I grew up there. But he didn't grow up there, so for him, it was kind of a new thing. Like he said "You know, Dad, I find once you get to know the people, they are so nice. They help you in every way. But till you get to know them, they are rude, they're rough, they're rude, they keep you away, they don't want to serve." This is a thing which is...no, that's true, that's true. The other thing that bothered me several times, especially when I go back, is the Indian people who think they're rich—basically they're poor, but they think they're rich, unfortunately—they're unnecessarily rude, unnecessarily rude to people whom they think are lower than them. This is so evident and this is so un-evident here. Here you

OH 37 INDIAN-AMERICANS IN CORVALLIS, OREGON ~ SANKAR CHAKRABARTI 16 | P a g e don't see a person who is appearing richer being rude to the fellow who is pumping gas in your car. This is a culture shock. Just give an example. We went to...whatever it is, that lake that we went and...I don't know, there is a lake somewhere...in...near Bangalore, some such place. We were all there. And we were getting the boat. Boat means steamship boat, it's a cruising boat. *Unintelligible*

UC: That is in Kerala.

SC: *Unintelligible* We're getting the boat and of course the line is sort of not good in India, you know. Breaking line is your skill. I...this guy, he's a little fattish, little older man. He was standing there. He wouldn't move! And the fellow is saying, "sir, please move," and the line is waiting. This man says, and this I remember, Meghna and Samidh both heard and they got shocked, this man is saying, "Don't be stupid! Don't you see I am working for someone else!"

ST: Wow.

SC: This is...this is...you can call it culture shock. You don't see it here, no matter how rich you are. But here, that man, he may not be rich! He may just a little above.

UC: Arre, what if he's rich, why should he say—

SC: This is...but this is in the making in Indian culture. When we grew up, we knew, so it didn't hurt. But after living here, I go and I see this and I said, oh, it is there. But what to do?

ST: Did your kids like India or did they not really like India?

SC: Actually, Samidh, when he became old enough to understand, because he has...both he and Meghna...they have heard us praising India all the time. Because they have a lot of good things in India! Really, lots and lots of good things in India. Actually, on another occasion, I remember Samidh was telling someone else, "oh, don't tell my dad. He knows that all good things originated in India." That's our deflection...that's how we talk to them. We don't teach them that we...mean or something like that or India is a bad place. No, nothing, really, there is lots and lots of very good things in India. But these personal things hurt. And this is the answer to your question. When Samidh grew up a little, I think he was 20, 21. We went. We stayed in Bombay with her sister. And after a couple of days, Samidh tells me...he always finds me a little more friendly than mother...he says, "I am never coming back here." That says everything. They did they like? Did they not like? They like the things they see in terms of architecture and all that and they have a better understanding of the world now. By that time, Samidh had already possibly traveled half the world now. He has traveled the world ten times. That's...you know. But those kind of things, they really tell you. They don't want to go.

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Samidh's wife pressures him to go now, but Samidh is always avoiding, because of this kind of things.

ST: What are the biggest aspects of progress that you've seen in Corvallis throughout the time that you've lived here?

SC: Both economically and non-economically? Economically, you know, Corvallis has fortunately grown 50 percent from the time we came. When we came, I remember distinctly it was 32, 33,000. Now it is possibly 50,000 or a little bit more. And it's immediate effect is a lot more construction. All these places are new. Maybe where you live is new, and all the places around Lewisberg are new. This is progress, really, come to think of it. It is progress. The school...Oregon State, it has grown from 15, 16,000 to now almost hitting 30,000. It is progress. And there...as an attendant...there are more Indians, there are more Indian festivals, like these days, there is Ganapati, there are other things. So these are definitely progress. Intellectually, you know, there are so many Indians...you're father included...are such towering intellectuals in their own right. And I think it feels good to be with them, to be able to say, I'm right there. Their tower, I'm puny. But that's OK. I...I don't think...when Bella came, he was possibly...second faculty in OSU. Indian faculty I mean. The other one that used to be there was...I forgot his name, he has gone now many, many years. He would not mix with Indian folks, especially we student folks. Then there were some richer people in Corvallis, there also HP. They would...they would keep a little separate from us, which is very normal, because we were starting life, we were in the lower place. That thing has possibly disappeared, or because we have grown, it just appeared. We have grown, we have made our life, our way it is. So...this Walnut was built in front of us, it was not like that. It was one lane both sides. And there was a park, it was only gravel. Those are...those are really changes, serious changes, I think. And technological changes, you know, you people are the technological changes, you are not without your iPhone. That's a change!

ST: What do you think was the biggest impact that you made on the town, either in terms of your work, or things you did in the community, or with your family?

SC: I told you truly, I'm a very dull and boring fellow. I don't have any community impact of any kind. Only the little community impact is I donate some money here and there to social organizations. That's a...if you think it's an impact, it's an impact, but very directly I have no...thing. In terms of work, in HP work, I think...of course, you work for 30 years and some of my products have been very successful. Usha can be even more proud of that. And many projects failed! Such is life. Such is life, and so...I don't know. I think it was...

ST: What products were specifically successful? I know that Bhaskar Uncle talked about inkjet printers.

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SC: Yes. My product, they're all now gone, finished, conserved. We had HP 85, HP 86, that is the money that built this side. After that, we did some...it didn't pan out. We were very proud in making...in bringing the Unix operating system to the tabletop. It was a very proud thing, but our...I think...I think our management's misunderstanding of how the world works made those ultimately failure. They're technologically very superb things, but it is not technology only that makes a project successful. In later years, I worked on the controls after four on the...you know these...what are these things called...pens? Pen is built in a machine...and not in a machine...in an assembly line. I was very happy because I built this software to drive the assembly line and qualify them. It doesn't show up anywhere, because what you will see is always the pen. But the pen's making was...I personally think I had a part in it. Our product went to Ireland, to Singapore, so in some way, if you think in an abstract way, in some way, I was distributing myself there, not physically there. It was pretty nice. The last bit of products that we did and I...I thought it was very nice. It was both romantic and useful. We had the video conferencing product, which used to be called "Hello" inside, video conferencing. It was very nice. Just think of it. Sitting here you can talk with somebody. There was no Skype, but in fantastic TV and all that...we would work all through the night, make us...night is some place, day's another, in another place. So we used to...we were...very happy building that system and qualifying that system. It was so, so successful that HP sold it.

ST: Wow.

SC: I'm saying both with the fun and with an anger! HP sold it! The other guys made money out of it! We didn't. Anyway, this is not a...I cannot say of things being...personally great or something, but Sravya, all these thirty years, every project I have worked, I have liked it. Every project there's something new to teach me. Something I learned. And directly or indirectly it was being used. That was...my life in HP has been good, has been very good!

ST: OK, last question is just what are the best memories you've had in Corvallis that you want to share?

SC: I think...I was not prepared for it. But, I don't know. Best memories are...I think when our children graduated. Both Meghna and Samidh...they were highly decorated students. It was so wonderful to see them up on the podium and being introduced again and again and again. That was very nice. It was so nice...I'll tell you this. This is from Dr. Bose, Bella. When Bella came, Samidh was only few months old.

UC: Not few months, he was just newborn Few days.

SC: That's true.

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UC: Bella came when Samidh was just born.

SC: And Bella often...because we also happened to live in the same complex at that time. Bella...he used to come and often he would take Samidh and go around, around. I...one year later, Bella once made a cake! Bella made a cake for Samidh. After that, he has kept in touch and he has known Samidh for a long time. After this...Samidh's graduation...I am not blabbering about my son, I'm just, because you asked. It's really a happy...Bella told me, "Sankar, I heard Samidh got awards more than all the other kids combined!" It was very nice. Not only because he said, but I...I went to the award ceremony and I think it was very nice. Very nice.

ST: OK, well, thank you very much. [01:30:23]

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