5 Oct 2000 Legislative Assembly 3473

THURSDAY, 5 OCTOBER 2000 department of Minister Doug Slack when the coalition was in Government. At 11.49 a.m. yesterday, Minister Elder rose on a matter of privilege to correct his original statement. He Mr SPEAKER (Hon. R. K. Hollis, Redcliffe) said— read prayers and took the chair at 9.30 a.m. "During question time today I did say that Lee Bermingham worked on the staff of the then Minister Doug Slack. I need to PRIVILEGE correct the record. It was, in fact, Minister Mr Speaker's Ruling Davidson." Hon. T. R. COOPER (Crows Nest—NPA) This statement is untrue. Lee Bermingham (9.32 a.m.): I rise on a matter of privilege. was never employed by me. He was never a Yesterday the member for Southport was member of my ministerial staff. The Deputy removed from this place by Mr Speaker under Premier has misled the House. Standing Order 123A (3). I, too, was removed from this place under Standing Order 123A (3). Mr ELDER: On the matter of privilege: I When I made inquiries yesterday of the clearly said yesterday in answer to the Deputy Opposition Whip as to whether I could question that when I came into the Ministry of return to vote, he sought advice from the Clerk State Development he was working in the who in turn sought advice from Mr Speaker. Mr Department of State Development. He was Speaker, you said that the member for employed by the Minister for DBIRD and Southport could return to vote but the member worked in the regional development section of for Crows Nest could not. Could I have an DBIRD under Minister Davidson. explanation as to why I was denied a vote in Mr DAVIDSON: I rise to a point of order. this place? The Deputy Premier clearly said that Lee Mr SPEAKER: Yes. The member for Bermingham worked on my staff. As I said, he Southport was removed from this House under never worked on my ministerial staff. As Standing Order 123A (2) and the member for Minister, I never employed the staff of the Crows Nest was removed from this place under department; he was a departmental staffer. Standing Order 123A (3)—sorry, it is the other Mr ELDER: On the point of order: I correct way around. That was very clearly what I said the record. He did not work on the member's at the time. staff but in his Ministry. Mr COOPER: Mr Speaker, if I may suggest, perhaps there is then a correction required to the Hansard, because Hansard RULING ON QUESTIONS ON NOTICE records Standing Order 123A (3) for both of Mr SPEAKER: I must advise honourable us. members this morning that I have ruled out of Mr SPEAKER: I am sorry, but I very order a number of questions on notice. Having clearly said it. I made different rulings on both consulted with the Clerks, I can only conclude members. that these pro forma questions are substantively the same as those ruled sub Mr COOPER: So Hansard got it wrong? judice yesterday. Mr SPEAKER: I think so. Very clearly I Mr BEANLAND (Indooroopilly—LP) said to you— (9.36 a.m.): I move— Mr COOPER: Mr Speaker, would you mind making the correction? "That Mr Speaker's ruling be dissented from." Mr SPEAKER: Yes, I will make the correction. I am very happy to. Mr COOPER: Thank you. PETITIONS The Clerk announced the receipt of the following petitions— PRIVILEGE Alleged Misleading of House by Deputy Premier Vegetation Management Bill Mr DAVIDSON (Noosa—LP) (9.34 a.m.): I From Mr Hobbs (85 petitioners) rise on a matter of privilege. Yesterday in requesting the House to rescind the question time the Deputy Premier made a Vegetation Management Bill 1999 statement that Lee Bermingham worked in the immediately. 3474 Ministerial Statement 5 Oct 2000

Voluntary Euthanasia Queensland Investment Corporation Investment Trusts— From Mr Turner (30 petitioners) requesting the House to introduce legislation Financial Statements for 1999-2000 so that, in appropriate circumstances, a (b) Attorney-General and Minister for Justice medically-assisted or induced quick and and Minister for The Arts (Mr Foley)— peaceful death at the request of and in the Report on the extension of the Public interests of a patient, becomes an available Trustee Regulation 1989 for a period of 12 option in medical practice. months pursuant to s.56A(2) of the Statutory Instruments Act 1992 Report on the extension of the Status of Dunkley's Coaches Children regulation 1989 for a period of 12 From Mrs Pratt (242 petitioners) months pursuant to s.56A(2) of the Statutory Instruments Act 1992 requesting the House gives financial support to Dunkley's Coaches for the continuation of the Report to the Legislative Assembly under Toowoomba to Hervey Bay and return s.56A(2) of the Statutory Instruments Act 1992 relating to the Continuing Legal passenger and freight coach service. Education Rule and Queensland Law Society Act 1952. Sunshine Coast, Dental Services From Miss Simpson (508 petitioners) MINISTERIAL STATEMENT requesting the House to call on the State Pit Bull Terriers Health Minister to employ more dentists and provide additional funding to the public dental Hon. P. D. BEATTIE (Brisbane Central— service on the Sunshine Coast to reduce these ALP) (Premier) (9.37 a.m.), by leave: There unacceptable waiting times. have been a number of horrific attacks on people by pit bull terriers in Australia. Recently, an elderly Queensland woman was severely Orchestras mauled. I was asked yesterday if the Queensland Government would consider From Mr Foley (2 petitioners) requesting taking action in relation to pit bull terriers on a the House keep the Queensland Philharmonic Statewide basis. My answer to that is yes. We Orchestra and the Queensland Symphony will look at what, if anything, can be done to Orchestra separate so that both can continue curb these vicious attacks. As members know, in their best suited pursuits and that the QPO this is normally the responsibility of local continues with the chamber orchestra government. performances in rural Queensland and that no reduction in the number of QPO players or of Over the centuries, these dogs were bred concerts given by the orchestra as a separate to kill. They were bred specifically for their entity. strength and fierceness. However, it is clear from the Internet that American pit bull terriers are still being bred specifically to kill. There are Dairy Industry Internet sites in the United States containing From Mr Rowell (1,433 petitioners) graphic reports detailing how one pit bull killed requesting the House to call on the Beattie another bite by bite. Proud breeders advertise Labor Government to provide a fair and how they have deliberately bred their dogs reasonable assistance package to help dairy from the fiercest and strongest lines. They are farmers and rural communities adjust to the bred to kill other American pit bull terriers of a impact of dairy industry deregulation. similar weight over and over again. They are nothing more than killing machines. It is plain Petitions received. there is no place in our suburbs for killing machines such as these. PAPERS Also on the Internet is a site owned by the Australian Dog Breeders Registry. The site MINISTERIAL PAPERS says, "We are the only registry for the The following papers were tabled— American pit bull terrier in Australia." It has a (a) Treasurer (Mr Hamill)— direct link under the title of Interesting Reading Queensland Investment Corporation— to the Pit Bull Reporter in the United States. In the Pit Bull Reporter one can read how a Annual Report for 1999-2000 "perfect southern gentleman" named Statement of Corporate Intent for Boudreaux has bred fighting dogs for more 1999-2000 than 35 years and can read a bite-by-bite 5 Oct 2000 Ministerial Statement 3475 account of an hour-long dog fight involving Council. We are continuing this close one of his champions, or so-called champions. collaboration, which will eventually result in As I say, there should be no room in our 3,000 jobs at the precinct. We have already society for these fighting dogs. worked closely together to resolve According to the Internet, other infrastructure issues. Governments have found it difficult to define a The Gold Coast Marine Precinct will grow pit bull. One answer used in the United States to become the centre of the marine industry is defining dangerous dogs as including on the Gold Coast and the largest of its kind in American pit bulls and any dog exhibiting the Australia. Ultimately it will occupy 250 hectares appearance and characteristics of that breed. of land and earn tens of millions of dollars a Since June, France has required all attack year in export income. I recently had the dogs, including pit bulls, to be sterilised. The pleasure of inspecting it. The precinct is one of law is aimed at eliminating dangerous dogs only two sites in the south-east corner of from the country within 10 years. Queensland available for the development of Countries which have banned pit bulls are water-based industries, the other being Clunies Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Holland. In the Flats near the Brisbane River mouth. USA there is a variety of laws aimed at dealing Already the precinct is an important with pit bull terriers. In one ordinance, contributor to the local economy. More than 60 dangerous dogs must be leashed and hectares have been developed and $65m muzzled when not confined to the owner's invested here by Riviera Marine, Quintrex, property, and owners must carry $100,000 of Gold Coast City Marina, Coomera River liability insurance. Another dog law bans pit Slipway and Marina, known by locals as Bruce bulldogs, which includes but is not limited to Harris's Boat Yard, and Neale Industries. American pit bull terriers, Staffordshire bull These operations already generate earnings in terriers, American Staffordshire terriers and any excess of $100m a year in boatbuilding orders. mixed breed of dogs that includes these As a result of the Government's desire to breeds. Another jurisdiction insists on pit bulls ensure that the Opposition has an opportunity being neutered or spayed. They are to raise issues today, I seek to have the rest of specifically licensed with an accompanying my comments incorporated in Hansard. photograph and cannot be owned by anyone under 21 years of age. Leave granted. The precinct has been established to attract In response to a dog attack on a child, local, interstate and international manufacturers Germany recently passed legislation banning to accommodate expected growth over the three breeds of dogs: American Staffordshire next 30 years. terriers, Staffordshire bull terriers and pit bulls. We expect further marine industries to be We will investigate the success of these laws. attracted here, including boat building, boat Like many people in this House, I am a proud refit, mechanical services and marine dog owner and I love my dog. component manufacture. Mr Bredhauer: Rusty. We confidently expect that the marine industry Mr BEATTIE: He is a great dog—a bit fat, will benefit from the trade synergies generated but a wonderful dog. I do not think any by companies within the precinct and that there sensible dog owner would support pit bulls. I will be table print-outs of some of the pit bull sites on substantial flow-on effects to other marine the Internet, together with references to some companies located within the boundaries of of the anti-pit bull laws introduced in various Gold Coast City. jurisdictions. Already several overseas boat manufacturers have expressed interest in the precinct, dependent upon government incentives, state MINISTERIAL STATEMENT government support and the overall strategic plan for the area. Gold Coast Marine Precinct In November last year council asked the Hon. P. D. BEATTIE (Brisbane Central— Queensland Government to take a leadership ALP) (Premier) (9.41 a.m.), by leave: Later role in setting future directions for the growth today, with Deputy Premier Jim Elder and Gold of the precinct and to form a task force. Coast Mayor Gary Baildon, I will officially open That we've done and the task force meets the Gold Coast Marine Precinct at every month. Coomera—a project which already employs We have implemented a coordinated approach 1,000 people. The project is a result of to the development of this very significant longstanding close collaboration between the project, believing that this is by far the best way State Government and the Gold Coast City to realise the potential of this very important 3476 Ministerial Statement 5 Oct 2000

addition to Queensland industry and Alan returned to Brisbane in 1972. I am infrastructure. advised that he came back with a rather flash The Queensland Government's involvement is metallic blue Ford Mustang convertible. We coordinated through the Department of State would all love to have seen that. What style! Development and the Task Force addresses He came back to the State Reporting Bureau such issues as: and, subsequently, the Parliamentary The need for an infrastructure plan for the Reporting Staff. He was appointed Deputy entire precinct, Chief Reporter in 1989. Alan took over the The need for a master plan and marketing Chief Reporter's role following the untimely strategy, death of Peter Rohl. Mr Rohl had overseen the The need for a project manager to introduction of CAT—computer-assisted implement such strategies transcription—reporting and Alan Watson State Government financial assistance continued that good work. with infrastructure costs and strategic Alan Watson commands great respect, planning issues, and Mr Speaker, as you know, for his Support from the State Government to professionalism, his dedication to the job, his assist with continued growth and diligence, his unflappable demeanour and his development through investment endless patience with all of us. He is regarded attraction, marketing and fast tracking of with some awe for his ability to make out what infrastructure issues. is being said on the floor of the House, despite Projects of this magnitude, properly the brouhaha that sometimes ensues—with no coordinated and supported by all parties disrespect to you of course, Mr Speaker. involved, will maintain Queensland's marine industry as a significant international force. Mr Mackenroth: Members read their speeches and think they actually made good You can rest assured that the Queensland speeches. Government will do all it reasonably can to ensure we maximise the potential of this great Mr BEATTIE: Not only do members read project. speeches and think they made good The Queensland Government recognises the speeches; Alan has actually managed to great growth potential of the marine industry, convert some speeches into English, which I particularly in export markets. find an extraordinary achievement. Some of The Gold Coast City Council has also the speeches I have heard have only made recognised the potential significance of this sense when I have read them in Hansard. precinct to provide the base for a key industry Alan has always been patient in his to broaden and strengthen the city's economic dealings with members and their officers and base. firm in his resolve when confronted with a I congratulate the Queensland industry for request to rewrite history perhaps a little more establishing significant international markets for eloquently than it was in fact created. It must pleasure craft, ranging up to the top end of the also be said that frequently he had a gift for luxury yacht market. understanding what members really meant to say—and I for one have benefited as a result. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT My staff and I have always enjoyed an excellent working relationship with Alan, and I Chief Hansard Reporter thank him for that. Alan Watson is also greatly Hon. P. D. BEATTIE (Brisbane Central— appreciated for his quips and his dry sense of ALP) (Premier) (9.43 a.m.), by leave: I rise to humour. speak with some regret today, because we bid farewell to the "Prince of Pitman", Alan During his time in this place Alan has Watson. Alan will retire tomorrow after 25 years worked with nine Speakers: Houghton, Muller, of service to the Queensland Parliament. Warner, Lingard, Powell, Lingard again, Fouras, Turner and Hollis. He has recorded the Alan's career began well before he came words of six Premiers: Bjelke-Petersen, Ahern, to this place. In 1961 he was a clerk grade 3 in Cooper, Goss, Borbidge and me. There is no the Office of the Commissioner of Police and doubt that he will be missed in this place. the following year was working with the State Reporting Bureau. He did two stints in Vietnam I wish Alan a long and happy retirement and in 1967 was discharged from national with his wife, Bev, his daughter and grand- service. The following year Alan joined the daughters. He now has more time to devote to Commonwealth Hansard team and, for his decreasing his handicap on the golf course, sins, spent a number of years in Canberra. where I believe— That is service beyond the call of duty. Mr Elder interjected. 5 Oct 2000 Ministerial Statement 3477

Mr BEATTIE: I believe on the golf course Alan was appointed to the Parliamentary he is known as "Why me?" He will now have Reporting Staff on 3 July 1975, by which time more time also to travel the world and even, I he had already spent 14 years recording the am told, indulge in a little rock and roll dancing. words of others. His first full reporting job I have to see that! I extend my very best commenced on 9 July 1964 when he was wishes to Alan Watson. I will move that my appointed Acting Assistant Reporter and statement be noted in order to give the Leader Typist, State Reporting Bureau. As the Premier of the Opposition the opportunity to say a few indicated, like many young Australians of his words. generation Alan did National Service from In addition to what I have said I say to 1965 to 1967 and served in Vietnam. He is Alan, who is in the gallery today: you are well therefore a veteran in more senses than one, regarded. You have run a very professional and we salute him for that, too. operation here. It is rare, I have to say, that I place on the record that over my 20 people get the respect not only of both sides years in this place I have never had reason to but also of every member in this Parliament. comment other than positively and with People get that only when they are good, and pride—a shared pride, I believe—on the you are good. Good luck. I move— professional excellence and courtesy of Alan's "That the statement of the Premier dealings with me and with other members. be noted." Hansard is part of our heritage. It is also Hon. R. E. BORBIDGE (Surfers the living history of Queensland, viewed from Paradise—NPA) (Leader of the Opposition) the vantage point of politics and the daily cut (9.47 a.m.): It falls to relatively few people to and thrust of sessions in this Chamber. We all rise to the position of Chief Hansard Reporter. wish Alan all the best of great retirements. We It is, I think, a mark of the personality, wish the same for Bev. I speak, of course, for character and professional skill of those few myself and the Opposition, but I am sure I also people that the parliamentarians of the day, of speak for every member of this House. We whatever political persuasion, will always shall miss him. genuinely miss them when they have gone. I hope that the next Chief Reporter has the opportunity to serve us as honourably and As the Premier indicated, Alan Watson is as efficiently as has Alan Watson. His leaving us after more than 10 years as Chief departure leaves a big hole in his team. I hope Reporter. That is a significant milestone in it is one that those who hold the purse strings itself, one that many of us here might usefully of the day in this place will swiftly determine think upon—more than 25 years on the team. that they must fill. I know that I speak for every member of this place when I say that I am personally sorry To Alan I say this: thank you for your skill, that he is going. We will miss him greatly. I for your professional and personal courtesy, for certainly want that imprinted on the Hansard your unflinching determination to produce an record. exact record of proceedings of this House, for your single-mindedness, for your firm but fair The Opposition of the day—Alan has defence of the accuracy of the record and for seen a few of those in his days here among your tremendous contribution to the us—is very sorry to see him go. We certainly democratic process and to the Parliament of say to him: farewell. I know I speak for many Queensland. when I record, for Hansard and the people, that in saying farewell to Alan I mean it in the But, Alan, I also say thank you for being a old-fashioned sense of fare thee well. friend. Alan, like all true professionals, is a private Mr SPEAKER: May I just add on behalf of person. He has worked here for more than a Parliamentary Services our thanks for Alan quarter of a century, concerned only with one Watson's unfailing good humour whilst carrying thing: that the record of proceedings in this out his work. Alan is a very valued member of place should be the accurate, verbatim record the parliamentary family. As Speaker, one gets that Hansard historically has been. He has led to know the other parts of the work that is his small team with good humour, carried out by Parliamentary Services. consummate skill, great attention to detail, Alan is also involved in a lot of confidence, courage—you need a generous work—principally committee work—for the measure of courage to be the Chief Reporter Federal Government. He has been of great of the vocalised thoughts of 89 feuding human assistance with the Youth Parliaments and beings who can always think of a better way of forums that we have in this place. Some of saying something after they have said it—and those are very difficult to record, but Alan has pride. always done it very well. 3478 Ministerial Statement 5 Oct 2000

For the past two years, Alan has also and office space suited to boat brokerages, been a staunch supporter of the parliamentary naval architects, marine surveyors, ferry golf day. This year we raised a record $18,500 terminals and charter boat hire. on the day. I hope that when Alan goes back But the Beattie Government also forecast to Wynnum and gets his handicap down he that this precinct would be critical in attracting will still support the parliamentary golf day. major international and interstate marine I pass on to Alan the good wishes of the investment to the region, generating even parliamentary family. Good luck for the future! more jobs. I am pleased to say that our investment is already paying off. American giant, Cummins—the world's largest producer MINISTERIAL STATEMENT of diesel engines over 200 horsepower—has Gold Coast Marine Precinct; Chief Hansard relocated its South Pacific headquarters from Reporter Melbourne to the Gold Coast. Cummins recorded sales of almost $7 billion last year. Hon. J. P. ELDER (Capalaba—ALP) (Deputy Premier and Minister for State This is a significant achievement for the Development and Minister for Trade) State Government and for the Department of (9.53 a.m.), by leave: I rise to support the State Development's investment attraction Premier's announcement of the opening of team, and our Gold Coast office, who sold the Queensland's new multimillion-dollar precinct advantages of Queensland and the Gold on the Gold Coast. This 250-hectare precinct Coast and made this deal happen. The move will pave the way for a further 3,000 new jobs will mean a further 200 jobs for and hundreds of millions of dollars in export Queenslanders. earnings for Queensland each year. The company's expansion plans for the This project goes way back to my days as South Pacific—all from our own Gold Coast— Minister for DBIRD—the Department of are very impressive. Cummins plans not only Business, Industry and Regional to expand its diesel engine business, but to Development—when we began working closely also develop its motorhome and houseboat with the marine industry, determined to find manufacturing businesses and launch a new greater growth and export opportunities for business—Endeavour Houseboats. Endeavour marine businesses. At that time, a marine Houseboats will be Australia's first national precinct of this scale was little more than a houseboat production business, and the vision of how this Government believed we design, manufacture and marketing of these could grow Queensland's marine industry as a boats will be carried out entirely on the Gold showcase for all Australia—and, for that Coast. Cummins expects that its purchases matter, for the rest of the world. from other Queensland based businesses will almost treble from $5.5m this year to more Today's opening will not only realise that than $15m in less than three years. We vision, but it will also fulfil a Government welcome Cummins to the team of impressive commitment to help broaden the economic organisations that have already made the base of the Gold Coast which has for so long move to the Gold Coast Marine Precinct. thrived mostly on tourism. The coordinating role for this project is We led by example. The Department of now in the hands of the Gold Coast Marine State Development bought a $2.3m parcel of Precinct task force which is chaired and land in the project and became a major coordinated by the Department of State stakeholder. We have shared the Development with representation from other development of this project with the likes of the State Government agencies and the Gold Riviera Group, Telwater, Gold Coast City Coast City Council. It will be the responsibility Marina, Bruce Harris' Boatyard and Neale of this task force to further develop and market Industries who have already developed more the precinct. We wish them every success in than 60 hectares of the precinct. Their $65m their efforts. We have no doubt that their investment in the precinct employs more than efforts will fully realise the Beattie 800 people and has already generated boat Government's vision for Queensland's marine building orders in excess of $100m. industry. I again congratulate Cummins on its The precinct also includes room for the move from Melbourne to the Gold Coast. development of a further five factories for In closing, let me say to Alan Watson marine and ancillary businesses, and five boat that, in the 10 or so years that I have been building factories. It will provide Australia's here, I have enjoyed working with you, Alan. largest enclosed paint and sandblasting Your easy personal style made my dealings facilities, 56 purpose-designed marine factories with Hansard a real pleasure. On a personal 5 Oct 2000 Ministerial Statement 3479 note to yourself and Bev, I wish you well in and treatment of all seriously injured your retirement. Queenslanders, whatever the cause of their injury. This registry is already partly established as a joint project between Queensland Health MINISTERIAL STATEMENT and CONROD and I would like to take this Motor Accident Insurance Commission opportunity to thank my colleague the Minister Hon. D. J. HAMILL (Ipswich—ALP) for Health for her support. (Treasurer) (9.57 a.m.), by leave: I would like to The information obtained from this registry inform the House of a significant new will help research into the prevention of injury investment in research aimed at improving the and lead to recommendations for recovery of people involved in motor vehicle improvements in the system of providing acute accidents in Queensland. care and rehabilitation to individuals who As honourable members would be aware, survive motor vehicle and all other traumatic the Motor Accident Insurance Commission is injuries. The extra funding will also allow the regulatory authority for the compulsory advances to be made in teaching programs for third-party scheme. But what is less well known rehabilitation specialists By increasing the is that it also supports practical programs emphasis on, and funding for, rehabilitation designed to reduce the social and economic research and training, it is hoped that cost of motor vehicle related injuries. rehabilitation will, over time, increase its profile in the health system. To that end the Motor Accident Insurance Commission will provide $14m over the next This initiative is also an important five years to expand the high quality research contribution towards developing Queensland's work being undertaken by the Centre of reputation as the Smart State as it will bring to National Research on Disability and prominence a research centre which has Rehabilitation Medicine, known as CONROD, strong potential for leadership at the national based at the University of Queensland. In and international level. It is of particular 1997, the commission entered an agreement importance to those Queenslanders and their with the University of Queensland and the families who have the misfortune to be injured Queensland Institute of Medical Research to in motor vehicle accidents. establish CONROD. The commission has provided about $600,000 a year to establish MINISTERIAL STATEMENT the centre and support a wide range of research projects that are already under way. Albany Creek Police Station; Chief Hansard Reporter The commission has also taken the initiative in accident prevention by establishing Hon. T. A. BARTON (Waterford—ALP) the Centre for Accident Research and Road (Minister for Police and Corrective Services) Safety—Queensland, or CARRS-Q, in 1996. (10.01 a.m.), by leave: I have great pleasure Both CONROD and CARRS-Q centres have to inform the House today that the Albany earned broad community support and Creek Police Station is back open for business recognition for their worthwhile work. as a stand-alone entity within the Boondall We are all aware of the extraordinary division. human and social cost of road accidents. In January 1994 the Albany Creek Police There is also a financial cost. For example, this Station was closed as a result of the decision year in Queensland there will be about 10,000 to cluster police resources in divisional compulsory third-party insurance claims costing headquarters at Boondall. As part of the about $700m in CTP premiums. Queensland Police Service's ongoing review of Despite the excellent work performed by policing demands in the Metropolitan North our health workers who provide acute medical region, the decision was made to reopen treatment and rehabilitation, the path to Albany Creek Police Station. recovery is not always a seamless process. I know the residents of the area will be This is where the extra funding to CONROD will well pleased by this decision. I know this help. CONROD is already a recognised because the member for Kurwongbah has national and international research centre been very active in making representations to headed by Professor Nicholas Bellamy. With me on this issue on their behalf. In fact, a this extra funding, CONROD will build a multi- deputation of residents met with me on this disciplinary team to undertake research that issue at the Pine Rivers Community Cabinet supports a seamless continuum of health care. meeting earlier this year. At the core of CONROD's future strategy The Albany Creek Police Station is a trauma registry which collects the history reopened as a separate entity this week. This 3480 Ministerial Statement 5 Oct 2000 station is staffed by a senior sergeant, who is MINISTERIAL STATEMENT the officer in charge, a sergeant, three senior Government Printer, Mr R. Giles constables, nine constables and an AO2 administrative assistant. This staffing Hon. R. E. SCHWARTEN (Rockhampton— complement gives the station the capacity to ALP) (Minister for Public Works and Minister for maintain a vehicle patrol on a two-shift basis Housing) (10.04 a.m.), by leave: It is with seven days a week with the ability to roster sadness that I inform the House of the death additional patrols during peak periods, for during the recess of the Government Printer, example, 8 p.m. to 4 a.m. and 10 p.m. to Russell Giles. After battling illness for several 6 a.m. on Friday and Saturday nights when months, Russell died on 21 September 2000 resources are available. at the age of 53. I had the pleasure of seeing Russell appointed as Government Printer and The Albany Creek Police Station is under general manager of Goprint in July last year the direct control of the Divisional Commander after acting in the position for two years. at Boondall and will be serviced by that Russell's whole career was spent in the division's tactician, intelligence capability and government printing sector—in Western by other support functions, for example, plain Australia and in Queensland. He commenced clothes investigators, traffic branch and work in Perth in 1962 as an apprentice community liaison personnel. The officer in compositor with the Western Australian charge will be responsible for the furtherance Government Printing Office. By 1976 he had of all policing initiatives within the local risen to be production manager. His 15 years community, especially the fostering of with the Western Australian Government problem-oriented partnerships. Printing Office saw many achievements, including the development and The communities to be serviced by the implementation of computer-based production Albany Creek Police Station are the suburbs of scheduling. While in Western Australia he was Albany Creek, Bunya, McDowell, Bridgeman appointed by the Government as an Downs, Brendale, Eatons Hill, Warner, Draper, apprentice examiner for the Government Clear Mountain, Cashmere, Closeburn and Printing Office and newspapers. Yugar. In 1977 Russell came to Queensland at The succession of record police budgets, the behest of the then Government Printer, the huge increases in police numbers and the Sid Hampson. When he arrived, the corresponding increase in resources under this Government Printing Office was just up Government are making initiatives such as this George Street from State Parliament—in the possible. The Beattie Labor Government is historic stone building with the printer's devils committed to giving police the numbers, perched on its roof. In the early 1980s the resources and legislative tools they need to do printery was relocated to its present site just their jobs effectively. Here is more proof of how across the Brisbane River at Woolloongabba. that policy is making a difference to the After joining the Queensland Government community. Printing Office, Russell's achievements included the modernisation of plant and Before I sit down, I would also like to join equipment within the old George Street in wishing Alan Watson a great retirement. complex and the introduction of computer Alan and I go back some 25 years. In the typesetting systems to replace the "hot metal" seventies it was the practice when the presses. He was also involved in the relocation Parliament was not sitting for Hansard to Woolloongabba, the introduction of new reporters to sometimes get the rough job of plant and equipment including computer going out with the State Industrial Commission typesetting systems in pre-press, and to record what were known as compulsory computer assisted printing presses. He also conferences. Alan was one of those people implemented a production management who, on many occasions, had to go to weird information system throughout Goprint. and wonderful locations like the Greenvale The link between this Parliament and the mine site and the Mary Kathleen uranium Government Printer is an historic and mine site with me to try to record what I and unbroken one, so it was pleasing to see others were saying. The best thing that I can representatives from the Parliament at the say about the rules for those conferences in memorial service for "Gilesy"—among them that era is that there were no rules. I think that the Clerk of Parliament, Robert Doyle; Chief the time that Alan spent there was obviously Hansard Reporter, Alan Watson, and Doug very good for his development and helped him Rohl, as well as other staff such as Ian to be able to handle this place. I wish him well. Thompson and Bob Bradbury. 5 Oct 2000 Ministerial Statement 3481

The first Government Printer in Queensland Graingrowers Association and the Queensland was appointed in March 1862— United Graziers Association, the representative just three years after Queensland's separation bodies that combined to make up Agforce. from New South Wales. The Government Their vision was to bring together the three Printer in its contemporary form as Goprint is groups into a unified association to advance still responsible for printing the laws, agri-political issues on behalf of broadacre regulations and speeches made in this House producers. as well as a wide range of other items for the This year's Agforce conference has been Queensland Government and indeed other titled "Our Future. Let's Focus". Broadacre Governments. Its staff make a mighty effort producers the world over face difficult decisions each year to print and deliver the State Budget in the foreseeable future, so it is important for papers on time to this House and elsewhere. all of us with an interest in promoting strong As Government Printer, the leadership and sustainable industries that provide jobs for shown by Russell Giles was a key factor in Queenslanders to take an appropriate role in achieving those results. He was also well focusing on that future. aware of the major challenges facing Therefore, in a spirit of cooperation and Goprint—among them, increased competition consultation, which has marked this and rapid advances in information technology. Government's relations with our primary They were challenges he was prepared to industries sector, I have this week sent an meet because he saw a viable role for Goprint invitation to Agforce leadership to establish a as a secure Government owned business unit. new mechanism for communications between Russell was proud of Goprint, its staff, skills myself as the Minister and representatives of and achievements. broadacre industries. I have written to Agforce Outside work he displayed a keen interest general president Larry Acton to confirm that it in sport. He competed in trap shooting at is my intention to establish a ministerial national and international level and loved golf, broadacre forum to enhance communication fishing and various codes of football. and interaction with Queensland's broadacre Russell carried out his job with dedication industries. and courtesy. He was a decent bloke, a loyal As the situation currently stands, it is vital public servant, a skilled craftsman and a good that there is effective communication between mate to those with whom he worked. This was industry, its representative bodies, the evidenced by the large number of Gilesy's Department of Primary Industries and myself workmates at the memorial service—including as the Minister. It is proposed that I would Sid Hampson. It was also pleasing to see chair the forum, which would be made up of there to honour Russell the former Minister the general president of Agforce and two Glen Milliner—himself a printer by trade. members from each of the three constituent industries, being beef, grains and sheep and I am sure all honourable members will join wool. The Department of Primary Industries with me in expressing our condolences to would be represented by the director-general Russell's wife, Lyn, and family. or his nominee on an ex officio basis. May I add to the other voices in the Parliament this morning in wishing Alan I have suggested that the first meeting of Watson a very long, happy and well-earned the forum should be held as soon as possible retirement. Alan has, as other speakers have and ideally the forum would meet four times a said, been able to turn the spoken word into year. I expect the— an excellent copy of the written record. I wish Mr Cooper: You could start with a drought him and Bev, as I say, a very long, happy, declaration. healthy and well-earned retirement. Mr PALASZCZUK: In response to the honourable member's interjection, I expect the ongoing very dry conditions and drought MINISTERIAL STATEMENT declarations to be the first issue for discussion. Agforce Annual Conference The Department of Primary Industries has Hon. H. PALASZCZUK (Inala—ALP) advised me that the number of individual (Minister for Primary Industries and Rural droughted properties has almost tripled to 344 Communities) (10.08 a.m.), by leave: The properties over September. Without relief rain, second Agforce annual conference is currently I would expect these numbers to further under way in Toowoomba. Agforce is now two increase as local drought committees hold years young, but it builds upon the long further meetings and make recommendations histories of the Cattleman's Union, the on drought declarations. 3482 Private Members' Statements 5 Oct 2000

As always, I have made it plain that NOTICE OF MOTION gender balance is an important issue. At least Diesel Rebate Scheme 50% of the representatives on the forum should be women. Women producers from a Mr JOHNSON (Gregory—NPA) range of primary industries across the sector (10.13 a.m.): I give notice that I shall move— have been lobbying me and my office to assist "That the ALP immediately end its in boosting their numbers on committees, opposition to the extension of the boards and at other decision-making and Commonwealth diesel fuel rebate representational levels. I have been more than scheme's 100% excise and GST rebate to pleased to assist where I can. all off-road users, including civil contractors, so that they can achieve We have experienced tremendous Commonwealth benefits denied them by success in relation to working with other the joint opposition of the Australian industries, such as Queensland's sugar Labor Party and the Australian industry, using similar mechanisms to that Democrats." proposed for this ministerial broadacre forum. I look forward to a similarly constructive and cooperative working relationship with Confidence in Mr Speaker representatives of the beef, grains and sheep Hon. R. E. BORBIDGE (Surfers and wool industries. Paradise—NPA) (Leader of the Opposition) This approach is in stark contrast to that (10.13 a.m.): I give notice that I shall move— of the Federal coalition Government. Take the "That this House has no confidence issue of fuel prices. Members of the Federal in Mr Speaker." Government have attacked Agforce for its call for a freeze on the full excise. I understand that members of Agforce will take their Drought Declarations concerns directly to Queensland Federal Mr ROWELL (Hinchinbrook—NPA) coalition members tomorrow. I urge those MPs (10.14 a.m.): I give notice that I will move— to listen and listen carefully. "That in view of the difficulty drought- stricken primary producers are having in SITTING HOURS; ORDER OF BUSINESS securing individual droughted property declarations because of the narrow Hon. T. M. MACKENROTH (Chatsworth— interpretation of the eligibility criteria by ALP) (Leader of the House) (10.12 a.m.): I the Department of Primary Industries, this move— Parliament calls on the Minister for "That notwithstanding anything Primary Industries to direct that all factors contained in the Standing and Sessional are taken into account, including the Orders, for this day's sitting, the House effectiveness and distribution of any past can continue to meet past 7.30 p.m. rainfall and rainfall totals alone are not Private members' motions will be debated relied on. between 6 and 7 pm. The House can Further, this Parliament calls on the then break for dinner and resume its Beattie Government to overturn its sitting at 8.30 pm. Government business decision to abandon State-based drought will take precedence for the remainder of relief schemes by 2002." the day's sitting." Motion agreed to. PRIVATE MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Beattie Labor Government SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRAVELSAFE Hon. R. E. BORBIDGE (Surfers Report Paradise—NPA) (Leader of the Opposition) (10.14 a.m.): Mr Speaker, based on your Mrs NITA CUNNINGHAM (Bundaberg— precedent last night in regard to a speech ALP) (10.13 a.m.): I lay upon the table of the made by the honourable member for House the Travelsafe Committee's annual Woodridge, I wish to canvass some issues report for 1999-2000, which includes a brief broadly without canvassing matters that are summary of the work of the Travelsafe currently under consideration at another place Committees of this House over the past down the road. decade. I move that the report be printed. I think that Queenslanders are now Ordered to be printed. starting to ask themselves: when will we see 5 Oct 2000 Private Members' Statements 3483 some standards from this Government? When minimise youth suicide. They were the will we see the Premier start to accept the circumstances in which I initiated the far-north responsibility that goes with his commission? Queensland task force for the prevention of The reality is that a great many Queenslanders youth suicide. are very disappointed and very disillusioned. That task force has gone from strength to The reality is that the current Premier thinks strength. This is also an opportunity for me to that people will believe a three monkeys give recognition to Councillor Fran Lindsay, defence—that somehow he can be a party who has stayed with that program over these secretary for eight years, somehow he can be past 10 years. Ms Wilson's more recent efforts a member of Parliament for 10 years, to raise community awareness through the somehow he can be parliamentary leader for Yellow Ribbon Program are indeed to be four years, somehow he can be Premier of this commended and supported. I hope that all State for over two years, and with that wealth honourable members will proudly wear that of insight into how Government works and how yellow ribbon to give recognition to this tragic his own party works, he saw nothing, he heard and futile problem in our society. nothing and he said nothing. I think it is appropriate to remind members I dare say that some members of the Labor Party of the advertisements that themselves or their constituents have been they ran during the Fitzgerald commission of touched by the tragedy of youth suicide. It is inquiry. They ran an advertisement which incumbent upon all of us in this House—in featured the Premier of the day which stated, fact, all community members—to do what we "How could you?" And further that during so can. many years in Government, so many years in Time expired. Cabinet, "you never heard, saw or said anything about corruption till now!" Those are not my words, those are the Electoral Fraud words of the Labor Party in an advertisement Dr WATSON (Moggill—LP) (Leader of the that was authorised by one Wayne Swan, a Liberal Party) (10.19 a.m.): Mr Speaker, former State Secretary of the Labor Party. consistent with your ruling last night, I wish to When are we going to see the rules that the canvass broadly the way in which the Premier Labor Party applies to others applied to them? and his Labor mates are playing a double Time expired. game to hoodwink the people of Queensland about the full extent of electoral corruption Yellow Ribbon Program within the ALP. While the Premier is proclaiming his commitment to cut out this Ms BOYLE (Cairns—ALP) (10.17 a.m.): cancer, he has the rest of the team doing This morning honourable members of the everything possible to blunt the blade of public House would have noticed on their benches a scrutiny. First, they tried to avoid it altogether. sheet with information about the Yellow While the Premier was telling everyone he Ribbon Program. I would like to draw would welcome an inquiry to clear the air, members' attention to that important program Labor lawyers were lobbying the Criminal as it is about raising the importance of the Justice Commission to rule out an inquiry. prevention of youth suicide in our community. They did not deny that electoral corruption was This program did not originate in Cairns, rife in the ALP, they simply argued that the although I must say it has been given some CJC did not have the power to investigate. profile in Cairns over recent months because it They said, "Don't worry about the cancer; it's was taken up, in fact, by a Cairns lady, Naomi big enough and ugly enough to look after Wilson. The sad reality is that in the early itself." 1990s health professionals recognised that the While the Premier has been telling prevalence of youth suicide, particularly male everyone that Labor rorters should go to jail, youth suicide, in the far north was one of the the ALP has set up a massive legal slush fund worst in Australia. to keep them out of jail. The ALP admits to This is an opportunity for me to give half a million dollars, but we have been told recognition to Mr John Boatman, who was the the real figure is about $3.5m. The actual director of Lifeline. When I was the chair of the amount does not matter, but the objective is regional health authority and chair of the clear. Three Labor rorters have already been Family Resource Service, Mr Boatman convicted on 79 counts of electoral corruption approached me to put together some kind of and this slush fund is a desperate attempt to program whereby we could work together to stop any more going to jail. 3484 Private Members' Statements 5 Oct 2000

We do not need $3.5m or even half a athlete would be there without such support. million dollars to defend the innocent. This Jai has given us all great entertainment with slush fund has been set up to bankroll the his suburb performance, but above all else he legal manoeuvres of the guilty. Over the past has enjoyed himself. And isn't that what sport two days, we have seen the Premier and his is all about? ministerial mates ducking and diving behind I congratulate also Regan Harrison and the Speaker's rulings to pick and choose the Loudy Tourky, who come from the Mansfield questions they answered. So much for open electorate, on gaining medals in swimming and accountable Government! The ALP has and diving respectively. corrupted the electoral roll, the Electoral Office and the Parliament. YMCA Youth Parliament Mr NELSON (Tablelands—IND) Jai Taurima; Regan Harrison; Loudy Tourky (10.23 a.m.): I take the opportunity to speak Mr REEVES (Mansfield—ALP) about probably the most positive thing I have (10.21 a.m.): Similar to most Australians, I seen in my two years here, namely the Youth believe the past two weeks have been a Parliament held last week. It was an excellent highlight in our country's history. Last Thursday forum that allowed young people to speak in evening was a very special moment for me. this Parliament. There were teams from Cairns, Watching someone you know compete in the Monto, Emerald, Gladstone, Pine Rivers— Olympics and being aware of what they have Mr Mickel: Woodridge. been through to get there is an emotional experience. Mr NELSON:—and Woodridge. They were from all over the State. I think the young Jai Taurima not only jumped further than people sitting in these seats last week were a any other Australian has ever jumped, he hell of a lot better looking, and in some cases entertained the 110,000 people at the Olympic more informed, especially about the issues stadium and millions around the world. Much that seriously affect them in the areas in which has been written about Jai Taurima, mostly they live. I congratulate the YMCA on the focusing on his unusual diet and his general amount of time and effort it put into organising attitude to his sport. I wish to inform people and preparing this forum for young people to that there is more to Jai than his unusual have their say. I thank the honourable ways. I remember being at Brisbane Airport members for Kurwongbah, Logan, Gladstone with Jai's family around midnight one night and any other members who also helped out. during the Atlanta Games consoling Jai, who The young people were glad that these had remarkably been excluded from the honourable members could serve as Deputy Olympics by Athletics Australia. It would have Speakers for the day. I thank Mr Speaker for been easy for Jai to quit athletics right there allowing the forum to take place in the and then. Instead Jai refocused and made the Chamber. It is a good thing for young people hard decision to leave his family and friends to be able to have their say in this place and and go to the AIS in Canberra. Jai's heartache pass on their messages to their elected was not complete. He went to the representatives. Commonwealth Games and equalled the jump of the winner but lost the gold medal on a Having said that, next year I would like all count back. Last year he missed out on a honourable members to get involved and see medal at the world championships by a mere 1 what they can do to help young people to centimetre. Jai has used all of these setbacks have their say. As I said, the YMCA Youth as a motivational force and pulled out an Parliament is the best thing that I have seen in extreme performance. my two years in Brisbane. I call on all honourable members to think about that next Jai's story is one that can be used by year when they are approached by the YMCA. anyone: we should keep following our dreams despite the setbacks we may suffer. Jai is a person who has not come from the elite of our Olympic Games society. He has overcome some major Ms STRUTHERS (Archerfield—ALP) heartbreaks both personally and on the track (10.25 a.m.): For two weeks Queenslanders and has now achieved greatness in front of were feasting on a daily dose of the the whole country and the rest of the world. Jai spectacular Olympic Games. The Games were is a prime example that one does not have to the friendly Games. They were a tremendous be a gold medal winner to be a winner at the celebration of humanity. We were all a part of Olympics. Jai's family and friends have played this celebration of humanity in witnessing the a major part in his success and no Olympic cross-cultural camaraderie and the way 5 Oct 2000 Private Members' Statements 3485 athletes pushed new physical and mental from the poor Kiwis. Why does he not leave boundaries in their sports. The celebration of them alone and give some jobs to humanity was also very evident in the way in Queenslanders? It is about time that we which reconciliation with indigenous people of provided jobs for our young people who Australia was embraced during the Games. desperately want to join the Queensland Sport is a great leveller of people. We clearly Police Service instead of cutting out 114 saw that through the Games. We saw that one positions in the past year due to budget could be a barefoot kid from Mackay or a cuts—114 positions denied to Queenslanders. village in Ethiopia and still be an Olympic champion. Given that there is so much inhumanity around us, it was inspiring to lap up Seniors Week such a big dose of humanity and Mr WILSON (Ferny Grove—ALP) achievement. (10.28 a.m.): Last Saturday I had the great pleasure of representing the Honourable Anna Residents in the working-class suburb of Bligh, the Minister for Families, Youth and Acacia Ridge in my electorate have been Community Care, and the State Government proudly claiming "Jumping" Jai Taurima and at the official launch of Queensland's Seniors Robert Van Der Zant as local lads. As the Week 2000 by the Lord Mayor, Jim Soorley. member for Mansfield said, "Jumping" Jai is About 1,500 people attended to kick off the quite a character and it will be interesting to week with the third Gray Mardi Gras. The see whether he now gives up smoking to give Seniors Week theme was "Rage at any him a better shot at the gold medal. age"—to show that older people really know I congratulate all of the athletes who how to have fun. Seniors Week was a chance pushed humanity to greater heights. In doing to challenge the negative stereotypes in our so they have helped to captivate and reconcile community, to portray older people positively our great nation. and promote a greater understanding of ageing issues. Figures provided at the launch by the Police Resources Lord Mayor are very revealing. Research on Mr HORAN (Toowoomba South—NPA) older people in Brisbane shows a great gap (10.26 a.m.): When the Borbidge Government between popular myth and reality. Popular introduced a massive police recruitment myth No. 1 is that most older people live program an important part of it was the use of alone. The reality is that only 29% of retreads, or experienced police officers, to Brisbane's older people aged 60 and older are provide a base of trained police amongst the living at home on their own. Popular myth new recruits. But it was never meant to be at No. 2 is that most older people live in the expense of jobs for young Queenslanders. retirement villages, hostels and so on. The In the last financial year 114 recruiting reality is that more than 90% of older people in positions at the academy were cancelled by Brisbane aged 60 and older live at home in this Minister. Some 114 job opportunities for ordinary houses. More than 70% of older young Queenslanders were lost. Now the people aged 80 and older also live at home. Minister is sending police officers over to New Myth No. 3 is that most older people are Zealand to try to get Kiwi police officers to frail or ill, but the reality is that research shows come here. that people aged 60 and older rate their health The job of the Minister for Police is to as good, very good or excellent. Myth No. 4 is ensure that young Queenslanders have the that people become disabled in old age. The very first opportunity to serve in their reality is that only 9% of people aged 65 years Queensland Police Service. This comes at a and older have a disability that restricts their time when the Minister has presided over a 5% daily activities. Myth No. 5 is that most older increase in crime in Queensland in spite of the people need assistance. The reality is that only huge increase in recruitment brought about by 46% of people aged 65 and older report a the coalition Government. This comes at a need for assistance. Myth No. 6 is that most time when we see rates of clear-up for property older people are cared for by someone else. crime in Queensland static and stagnant at The reality is that many older people are more 24%. This Police Minister, in spite of his having likely to give than to receive care in Brisbane. additional numbers of police, cannot increase There are about 20,000 older people aged 65 the clear-up rate of property crime and cannot and older who care for others. bring about a decrease in crime in this State. It I congratulate all those who participated in is an absolute shame that he is sending Seniors Week. Let us hope it is even bigger officers to New Zealand to try to pilfer officers and more fun next year. 3486 Questions Without Notice 5 Oct 2000

Mr SPEAKER: Order! The time for private party—or whether they are in the Liberal Party members' statements has expired. or the National Party; I do not support rorters. I do not support anyone who breaks the law. During my political life I have taken clear action QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE on a number of occasions in relation to Conduct of Members of Parliament matters and I will continue to do so. Mr BORBIDGE (10.30 a.m.): I refer the In terms of the Labor Party, I heard some Premier to his statement of 6 September in references made by the former Premier and which he said— Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of "Should there be serious allegations the Liberal Party. I have a track record of of unlawful behaviour or official reform within the Labor Party, and that track misconduct by anyone in Parliament, record speaks for itself. In the late 1970s, these people will stand aside until the Denis Murphy and I saw significant changes in matter is resolved." the Labor Party rules. During the time that I I ask: just how serious do these allegations was party secretary there were no rorts of any have to be before he will act? kind anywhere, and I stand by that record. I have a list of enemies from here to Cape York Mr BEATTIE: This is a serious matter. I to prove it. made a ministerial statement to the House. I spelt out the high standards that I expect. These are obviously a matter of personal Electoral Fraud judgment for the Premier, as they would be for the Opposition Leader if he was still the Mr BORBIDGE: Are you right back there, Premier. These are matters that I assess on a Mike? regular basis. He asked me yesterday on a Mr Springborg: It is all your fault! couple of occasions whether I had confidence Mr BORBIDGE: It is all his fault! I refer the in various people and I indicated that I had. I Deputy Premier to statements made by the am obviously watching matters in another Premier yesterday which were effectively place on a daily basis. The Leader of the reiterated today that persons involved in Opposition would, too, if it was his electoral malpractice should be purged from responsibility. I took an oath of office, which he the Labor Party, and I ask: does he reminded me of this morning, and I take that unequivocally support the Premier's position? oath of office very seriously. There is a clear difference—and let me Mr ELDER: Yes. speak in general terms—between allegations being made and there being serious allegations. There are always issues of Tree-clearing Guidelines credibility. Those issues of credibility pertain to, Mr SULLIVAN: I refer the Premier to the firstly, the person making them; secondly, Commonwealth's ongoing failure to meet its whether they are hearsay or direct evidence; national greenhouse responsibilities. In and, thirdly, the nature of the allegations and particular, I refer to an article in today's Courier- their general assessment. All those matters Mail which indicates that the Prime Minister will are matters on which I will exercise my mind on continue to deny compensation to a daily basis. I will honour to the letter the Queensland farmers affected by tree-clearing commitment that I gave to this House in my laws. I ask: will the Premier advise the House ministerial statements to which the Opposition of the current state of Leader referred. I have expressly set out in Queensland/Commonwealth negotiations on general terms the rough criteria as to how I will this important issue? exercise that discretion. Mr BEATTIE: I thank the honourable Let me talk about things in general terms. member for this important question. I should I have made it clear that I will have truck with say that I have not had even the courtesy of no-one who breaks the law in my party, no-one notification that the Commonwealth is who breaks the law in my Cabinet and no-one negotiating directly with Queensland rural who breaks the law in my Parliament—on my groups, let alone the content of those side of the Parliament. That is the high negotiations. There is simply politics being standard that I expect. That is the high played by the National Party in Queensland standard that I will insist on. I want a clean-up. and the Liberal Party in Queensland with their I will not support any rorters anywhere at any Federal colleagues. They do not want money time. I do not care which party they are in, to come to Queensland because they see that whether they are in the Labor Party—my as a political asset to this Government. 5 Oct 2000 Questions Without Notice 3487

Let us look at the position of the "are worried by rumours that the most Commonwealth. In February the Prime senior moderate in the Government, Minister asked for three to six months to Environment Minister and Senate leader enable Federal bureaucrats to investigate Robert Hill, has become frustrated and compensation for Queensland farmers may be persuaded by Howard to take the affected by tree-clearing laws. I gave him the post of Ambassador to the United full six months and we heard nothing. We Nations." passed our amended tree-clearing legislation The Queensland Government knows all about and proclaimed the Vegetation Management frustrations on these issues. Senator Hill has Act as promised to farmers in Roma. I been done over by the National Party in the honoured my commitment to the letter. Weeks Federal Cabinet. I understand that Senator Hill passed and still nothing came from the has not even been going to Cabinet meetings Commonwealth Government. and the Prime Minister has had to write to him Two weeks ago Senator Robert Hill about that. We need a fair go on tree clearing. bobbed up in the media proclaiming that Queensland's funding for tree clearing is in Electoral Fraud; Ms J. Budd danger unless we get down to an annual permit issue rate of 350,000 hectares by Dr WATSON: I refer the Deputy Premier December. He leaked this information to to the claim in the Courier-Mail of 23 selected journalists while having no contact September that one person at the centre of with me or any other Queensland Minister. rorting allegations had been telling colleagues Today we have his Federal colleague the that, if he or she goes down, he or she would Minister for Forestry and Conservation, Wilson also take down two former Labor Party State Tuckey, saying that the compensation scheme Secretaries. for Queensland farmers is doomed to fail. Mr Elder interjected. Why? Because they have not been able to Dr WATSON: No, it is not. This is about reach a negotiated position with farmers! This staffing. I ask the Deputy Premier: can he is from a Federal Government that includes confirm that the person involved was his the party—the National Party—that claims to electorate secretary Joan Budd and, if so, can represent the bush. he explain why Ms Budd is still on the public Mr Tuckey is reported as saying that no payroll when other Labor— compensation would be offered to assist with Mr SPEAKER: Order! That question is the implementation of State laws. He is quoted sub judice. I have just sought advice from the as saying— Clerk. "Without the farmers' agreement for Dr WATSON: Mr Speaker, my a cap on the issuing of permits, the understanding is that the terms of reference scheme is off. We cannot afford an open related to issues pertaining to the period 1993 ended scheme." to 1997. I am now asking a question about the So who is right? Robert Hill, who says that current employment practices of the— Queensland will get funding if it applies a cap Mr SPEAKER: Order! I have had advice on permit issuing, or Wilson Tuckey, who says from the Clerk and I rule that the question is that the whole thing is off? Where is the Prime sub judice. Minister in all of this? Where is the leadership Dr WATSON: Mr Speaker, I give notice we expect? Where is the political will to resolve that I will move a motion of dissent from your this matter? The Prime Minister cannot cry ruling. poor, not with the massive windfall from the GST and a massive surplus of almost $13 billion. Why can some of that money not Demonstration by Building Unions go to support Queensland farmers? Mr PURCELL: I refer the Premier to the While we are talking about Robert Hill, I demonstration by the building trades group of draw the attention of the House to an article in unions. I ask: can the Premier inform the last week's Bulletin magazine by Laurie Oakes, House of the background to this rally and what who writes that there are suggestions of a the Government's response will be? bigger than expected ministerial clean-out. He Mr BEATTIE: I thank the honourable goes on to say— member. The rally outside Parliament House today is a response by building unions to a "They"— decision by Alstom Power to register a work the moderates in the Liberal Party— site agreement at Swanbank with the 3488 Questions Without Notice 5 Oct 2000

Australian Workers Union in the Federal arena look at the statistics. Courier-Mail editorial rather than in the State system. The unions writers have been campaigning about our involved in the rally are CFMEU Construction, industrial relations laws. Here are the facts: the BLF, CEPU Plumbing, CEPU Electrical and they work, they work, they work and they will the AMWU. I do not support the Federal continue to work, because not only do we legislation. My Government's opposition to it is have record economic growth and record clear. In this particular case, a State growth in jobs but the lowest industrial agreement was offered and favoured by me disputation figures in Australia. and the shareholding Ministers. I am advised that the Australian Industry Group also supported a State agreement. I am also Mr J. Budd advised, however, that some unions—the Mr SPRINGBORG: I ask the Minister for AMWU and CEPU Electrical—held out for a Primary Industries and Rural Communities: can better deal. It has been argued that this led he inform the House why his policy adviser, Alstom Power to go to the Federal option. John Budd, husband of Joan Budd, was given The claim is now being made that the the push from the Australian Postal and Queensland Government has allowed wages Telecommunications Union before working for on State projects to be slashed. That is utter former ALP Senator Mal Colston? Can he rubbish. However, I sympathise with the inform the House if he still has full confidence unions' view that the State system offers better in Mr Budd's professional integrity? protection and better opportunities for workers to seek better conditions. As I said, I favoured Mr PALASZCZUK: I inform the House in a State registered agreement at Swanbank, the first instance that John Budd joined my but some unions wanted a better offer. I am office as a ministerial policy adviser in late advised that today's action by the building 1998. Mr Budd is currently responsible for the unions will culminate in a hearing before the policy areas of rural communities, forestry and State Industrial Relations Commission. I fisheries. Mr Budd was raised and worked in therefore think it is better to leave the matter in Queensland rural communities, and I believe the hands of the independent commission. he is very well suited to that position. As far as Together with the Minister for Employment, Mr Budd is concerned, he is a very valued Training and Industrial Relations, Paul Braddy, member of my staff. He does a great job. He and the Deputy Premier, Jim Elder, I will meet interacts exceptionally well with people in rural with a delegation of unions after question time. communities, and he has my support. Let me talk about some of the good news in relation to industrial disputes and the New Economy, Regional Businesses statistics. The latest Australia Bureau of Statistics data on industrial disputation clearly Mr MICKEL: My question is directed to shows that Queensland continues to have one the Deputy Premier and Minister for State of the best industrial relations climates in Development and Minister for Trade. I ask: can Australia. In the 12 months to June 2000, the Minister outline the initiatives the Beattie Queensland lost 61 working days to industrial Government is undertaking to assist regional disputes for every 100,000 days worked, or a Queensland business operators to participate strike rate of 61. By comparison, the Australian in the new economy? strike rate for June was 104, the highest level Mr ELDER: I thank the member for the of industrial disputation since May 1997. question, and I can. Increasing the knowledge Furthermore, the strike rate for Victoria, the of e-commerce in regional areas has been a only State totally subject to Peter Reith's priority of this Government since creating the Federal industrial system, is twice as high as Smart State policy. Yes, we are bringing IT to Queensland at 120. Furthermore, Queensland the bush. As part of this commitment to rural has a strike rate that is well below the other communities and the up-take of new major States—behind New South Wales at technologies, 17 trainers will be appointed for 148, Victoria at 120 and Western Australia at a regional QE.Net network to provide Internet 87. and other computer training for small The reforms introduced by this businesses and property owners in 20 Government under the Industrial Relations Act locations throughout rural and remote 1999 continue to ensure that Queensland has Queensland. QE.Net is a Queensland the lowest levels of industrial disputation of all electronic business network for non-urban, States. In other words, our industrial laws are regional, rural and remote Queensland. The working. I say to the editorial writers at the project is a joint initiative of the Beattie Courier-Mail whom we all love dearly: take a Government and the Federal Government. 5 Oct 2000 Questions Without Notice 3489

At a State level, my department, the businesses in areas where those opposite Department of State Development, and Mr should have greater interest. Mackenroth's department, the Department of Mr SPEAKER: Before calling for the next Communication and Information, Local question, I recognise in the public gallery Government and Planning and Sport, together parents, students and teachers from the with the Federal Government through the Silkstone State School in the electorate of Networking the Nation program are responsible Ipswich. for its delivery. In July this year we announced the initiative and sought esteemed local community members to become accredited to Queensland Rail deliver training courses to local business Mr BLACK: My question is to the Minister owners, operators and primary producers. for Transport and Minister for Main Roads. I For the benefit of those opposite, I point refer the Minister to a QR internal memo dated out that this Government is looking after 21 September this year in relation to ISG regional and rural Queensland. They do not; performance reviews, IMS and strategy review we do. The areas covered by the program will meetings. I ask: can the Minister confirm the include Roma, Mitchell, Charleville, accuracy of a statement contained in that Cunnamulla, St George, Surat, Quilpie, memo, which says— Emerald, Biloela, Moura, Gracemere, "As I see it, everyone's numbers will Yeppoon, Normanton, Karumba, Mount Isa, drop by approximately 15 between now Hughenden, Cloncurry, Julia Creek, Richmond, and December. We are expected to do Longreach, Barcaldine, Winton, Blackall and whatever we can to try and do without Tambo. So this Government is looking after staff wherever we can." the delivery of those initiatives in rural and Mr BREDHAUER: I have not seen the remote Queensland. memo to which the honourable member QE.Net workshops will demonstrate to refers. However, this is an issue which was small business owners and operators how raised with me yesterday by Les Crofton, the computers and e-commerce technology can State Secretary of the RTBU. My office and I be used to grow their businesses and increase have initiated inquiries with Queensland Rail, their competitiveness in what is now a very particularly with Vince O'Rourke, the Chief competitive market. Workshops will be three Executive of Queensland Rail, to find out the hours long and will be held roughly once a nature of the memo. I have given a month until June 2001. One particular commitment that, if I find out that the memo advantage of this program—and it is exists in the first instance— important—is that the selected members in the Mr Black interjected. local community will be accredited to deliver Mr BREDHAUER: The member is waving training. That then means that there is it around. However, I have not seen it. I have ongoing training and support for the towns I given a commitment that, if the memo exists, I have just outlined from that particular initiative. will find out what the context and intentions I continue to highlight to Queensland are. I will then respond appropriately, including companies the importance of technology, advising the honourable member of the particularly IT, to continue to grow their outcome of those discussions. strength and competitiveness, particularly for small business in rural, regional and remote Commonwealth Budget Surplus areas. That is because I firmly believe that Queensland businesses need to continue to Mr KAISER: I refer the Treasurer to the adapt to the use of new technologies to multibillion-dollar windfall Budget surplus remain competitive. Currently, only about 12% announced by the Federal Government last of all Australian small businesses have taken Friday, and I ask: what does this mean for the up e-commerce, yet that is probably where the Commonwealth's ability to honour its most potential lies. With the up-take of the commitments to the people of Queensland? new technology, smaller Queensland Mr HAMILL: At present the Federal businesses have the opportunity then to tackle Government is embarrassed by its riches. In more robustly the domestic market and the fact, Federal Treasurer Costello announced overseas market with new vigour. We will work last Friday that there had been a $5 billion with them in an endeavour to do that to create windfall received by the Commonwealth this export opportunities for them, because it is year. It was not surprising, therefore, that the export opportunities that they miss, and create Australian community said to the opportunities for them to sustain their Commonwealth Government, "If you are rolling 3490 Questions Without Notice 5 Oct 2000 in the money in this fashion, then surely you environmental management and, of course, do not have to again put your hand in the the poor long suffering Australian motorist. pockets of Australian motorists by a further hike in fuel excise. You could actually do something constructive about reducing fuel Electoral Fraud; Ms K. Ehrmann prices in Australia." I endorse those calls. I Mr SEENEY: Can the Deputy Premier think everybody in this House who is assure this House that there has been no concerned about the plight of the motorist financial consideration or any promise of a would endorse those calls. financial consideration from any Labor or union Mr Rowell: What about the farmers? entity in which he plays a leadership role to the jailed electorate rorter Karen Ehrmann? Mr HAMILL: Do I construe from the interjection of the member for Hinchinbrook Mr SPEAKER: Order! The matter is sub that, unlike the National Party in Canberra, the judice. The question is out of order. National Party here would support us in our call Mr SEENEY: Mr Speaker, I give notice of to stop the fuel excise rip-off? dissent from your ruling. There is more to this issue. The Commonwealth has been ripping off Western Bypass Queensland and the other States across a whole range of issues. Take for example Mrs ATTWOOD: I refer the Minister for HOCI, the health care funds. Over $100m is Transport and Minister for Main Roads to owed by the Commonwealth to Queensland recent announcements made by the Leader of alone in funds which it should be providing this the Liberal Party, the honourable member for State under the Health Care Agreement— Moggill, concerning a proposed bypass to the under the agreement, which was signed, and west of Brisbane linking the Gold and under an arbitration which was entered into at Sunshine Coasts. Would the Minister inform the instigation of the Commonwealth. When the House what the financial, social and the findings of the independent arbiter were environmental impacts of this project would brought down, the Commonwealth threw them be? out and said, "No, we will not accept that." Mr BREDHAUER: I thank the honourable Surely this $5 billion windfall will now allow the member for Mount Ommaney for the question. Commonwealth to pay its debt to the States She, it would appear, unlike the member for and to Queensland in respect of health care. Moggill, the Leader of the Liberal Party, cares What about the Regional Forest about the social and environmental amenity of Agreement? This week we saw a $5m the western suburbs of Brisbane. concession from Minister Tuckey. What about When I talked yesterday about the the rest of the money the Commonwealth Liberals' harebrained transport proposals, owes us in relation to regional forests? While I which were launched at the Liberal Party State am on the issue, do members not think the conference recently—I note without Commonwealth could afford the $103m over consultation with the member for Gregory—I four years for vegetation management? talked about how I was surprised at a number Canberra has a $5 billion windfall. of the proposals, for example, the bridge from What about the money the Hale Street to Cordelia Street and the tunnel Commonwealth has taken away from public from Taringa to Dutton Park, which would housing? $94m has been taken off upset Indooroopilly and the western suburbs. Queensland over four years in respect of I guess the proposal that surprised me public housing. most was the western bypass. I was surprised Opposition members interjected. that members of the Liberal Party, of all people, would come in here and argue for a Mr HAMILL: I know that those opposite western bypass. We all know that a western do not care about the plight of the homeless, bypass would run out through The Gap and but there are people out there who are out through the western suburbs of queuing for public housing. The Brisbane—Kenmore, Mount Coot-tha, Commonwealth could make good on the Brookfield, Ferny Grove, Ashgrove and funds it owes Queensland. The $400m it has Indooroopilly. To all of those people in the taken from the State could be repaid to the western suburbs I say: the member for Moggill State. A lot of community good would come wants to build a bypass through your area. It from it. Surely it is not much to ask when the will destroy the amenity and the environmental Commonwealth has sucked away an extra $5 attractions of those areas, for example, billion at the expense of housing, health, Brisbane Forest Park and the Enoggera dam. 5 Oct 2000 Questions Without Notice 3491

If it is proposed that the bypass would not go Mr BEATTIE: He is a very repetitive man. through the Enoggera dam catchment, it I understand the politics behind this. I know would have to come in even closer to The that he will write this question out in big print Gap. and put it back in his drawer and ask it again This issue is not just about the fact that next time. the Liberals are going to build the bypass. The Mr Welford interjected. fact is that they will have to upgrade all of the Mr BEATTIE: It does save paper. But suburban and urban road networks with major does he know what will happen? I will always interchanges so that people can have access give him the same answer. As I have indicated to the bypass. So it will be not just the people to the House, I sought assurances from a in the area who are directly affected. number of people. I had a discussion with the How much would the people of member for Townsville. I take him as a man of Queensland have to pay for this harebrained his word. I accept the assurances he has given scheme? They would have to pay over $3 me. Yes, I do have faith and confidence in billion. The Leader of the Liberal Party refuses him. I said that the other day. I have said that to release the details of how he will pay for before. When we come back to this issue next these proposals until after the next election. time, I will say it again. I just want the member "Trust me," he says. "I'll find it." He was to get it clear in his mind that this is the reported in the Gold Coast Bulletin as saying, position. "We will not even have to charge tolls on the I also spelt out this morning the very high western bypass." So he is going to conjure up standards I expect. The Leader of the the $3.2 billion that is necessary to build the Opposition asked me a question about how I western bypass. He will destroy the urban and would frame in my mind value judgments suburban amenity of the western suburbs of about these issues. In general terms I have Brisbane. He will destroy the environment. spelt out that framework as well. Yesterday when I asked the member for Members have to remember: there is a Gregory during a debate in the Parliament difference between direct evidence and about his commitment to the IRTP he said, "I hearsay evidence. Issues relating to credibility am committed to the IRTP." I said, "What are also very important when we are talking about the member for Moggill?" He said, about people making allegations. There is a "Well, you had better go and ask him." The clear difference between my Government and member for Gregory knows that the member the previous Government. When the MOU was for Moggill does not even understand the being considered by an independent inquiry IRTP. Otherwise he would not have made the there was an attempt at a cover-up by the outlandish policy projections he made. He will previous Government. destroy the amenity of western Brisbane. Opposition members interjected. Ms Bligh: Who is the shadow Minister for Transport? Mr BEATTIE: But there is a difference. As I said, there was an attempted cover-up by the Mr BREDHAUER: Well might the member previous Government. As far as I am ask who is the shadow Minister for Transport. concerned, under my Government there will be One might also ask who was the Transport a clean-up. Minister when the coalition was in Government. The member or Moggill will send Mr BORBIDGE: I rise to a point of order. the State bankrupt to get the $3.2 billion that That remark is intensely offensive. It refers to would be needed for this bypass, along with my Government. It is untrue. I ask that it be the other billions required for his other projects. withdrawn. Mr BEATTIE: I said "under the previous Government". It is a specific reference that I Member for Townsville have made on many occasions, namely that Mr HOBBS: Does the Premier still have under the previous Government there was an full confidence in the political integrity of his attempt to cover-up. Under my Government Parliamentary Secretary, the member for there will be a clean-up. That is the difference. Townsville? Mr BORBIDGE: I rise to a point of order. Mr Schwarten interjected. That is a total untruth from a very obviously Mr BEATTIE: I know. He asked this desperate man. I find it offensive and I ask yesterday, and I have no doubt that every day that it be withdrawn. we sit he will ask it again. Mr BEATTIE: It is not a personal Mr Elder interjected. reference. 3492 Questions Without Notice 5 Oct 2000

Mr SPEAKER: Order! It is not a personal The program relating to alternative reference. Under the standing orders it has to education centres has proved to be extremely be a personal reference. successful. Alternative behaviour management Mr BEATTIE: It is not a personal centres have been established at Woodridge, reflection. The Leader of the Opposition knows Deception Bay, Ipswich, Cairns and bayside. that. These centres are up and running and have students in them. They are reporting significant Mr BORBIDGE: It was my Government. successes. The only cover-up was the legal advice hidden in the safe that those opposite knew all about. I am aware of one young student who had extremely challenging, extremely Mr BEATTIE: I am happy to answer any problematical behaviour and who might have of these questions. However, as I seek to try to become—indeed, was going to become—a answer them the Leader of the Opposition client of the department of Minister Bligh. takes spurious points of order. However, that student was involved in an Mr Horan interjected. alternative education centre and instead Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for remains a client of Education Queensland. Toowoomba South! That is a success story for that child. If one goes to one of these alternative education Mr BEATTIE: Today, the Leader of the centres, as I have done, one will see children Liberal Party said, "You don't need millions of who, in the classroom setting, have been dollars to defend the innocent." In that case, noted for their extremely challenging behaviour why did those opposite spend $2.24m of and who are now performing tasks and taxpayers' money defending people before the actually learning. These centres are clearly MOU inquiry? Those are the words of the working. Leader of the Liberal Party. Why did he spend $2.24m of taxpayers' money defending people This Government is not going to put up before the inquiry? That is a lot of money to with the extremely challenging and spend on looking after the innocent. inappropriate behaviour of that very small These matters are before a properly minority of students who are prepared to constituted inquiry. They should be determined disrupt the rest of the class. What we are by that inquiry. They should not be the basis of going to do is target these programs in such a a political debate. way that we ensure that those students continue with their education and allow the other students in the class to continue with Behaviour Management in Schools theirs. Allowing those students to continue with Mr MUSGROVE: My question is directed their education will not only maximise their to the Minister for Education. I ask: is he human potential—because we intend to delivering on his commitment to improve actually transition them into the work behaviour management in Queensland force—but will also allow the rest of the school schools? community to get on with the job of educating and ensuring the maximisation of the potential Mr WELLS: The honourable member for of all of our children. Springwood has often spoken to me about the importance of behaviour management programs in schools and I thank him for his Mr J. Crowley continuing interest in the area. Mr HEALY: I direct my question to the I have previously spoken to the Minister for Tourism and Racing. I ask the Parliament about our two-pronged attack on Minister: is it true that in late August she sent a behaviour management problems in our letter to members of the Queensland Harness school system. The first prong is the more Racing Board advising that she had stood traditional prong of empowering teachers with aside board chairman Mr John Crowley? What the skills necessary to deal with behaviour were the reasons for standing aside Mr management problems. In this semester, Crowley? Why has there been no press 2,000 teachers will be benefiting from release issued from her ministerial office in behaviour management in-service training relation to this matter in over a month since? which is taking place in every single district of this State. Honourable members would be Mrs ROSE: That is quite right. John pleased to know that a school near to them, Crowley has been stood aside as chair of the and well known to them, during this semester Queensland Harness Racing Board. At this will host a major behaviour management time, Helen Boyd is the acting chair of the training seminar. Queensland Harness Racing Board until such 5 Oct 2000 Questions Without Notice 3493 time as a number of technical matters have This working group has been formed in been resolved. response to calls from my mining taskforce for Those technical matters arise as a result employers to take on more apprentices in the of some business transactions which were mining industry, and also for employers to take conducted between the Queensland Harness on more workers from regional Queensland Racing Board and Bryan Byrt Ford. It appears rather than have them flying in from other that section 43 of the Act was technically States or, indeed, from other countries. The breached. Bryan Byrt Ford had fewer than 20 working group will focus on the issues shareholders, one of whom was the chairman identified by my mining taskforce. of the board, John Crowley. The working group will comprise representatives from State and local The purchasing procedures and practices government, the mining industry, labour hire of the board were examined and it has been groups, trade unions and training groups. This confirmed that there has been no impropriety group will concentrate its efforts on addressing at all on the part of either Mr Crowley or the issues affecting regional communities who are staff of the board. However, pursuant to the associated with the mining industry. The group Act, the result of this technical breach is that will investigate how fly-in or bus-in operations Mr Crowley's position as chair of the affect the industry. It will also look at how we Queensland Harness Racing Board has can give more training to young men and become vacant. The financial controller of the women who live in these communities. Queensland Harness Racing Board, on behalf of the Queensland Harness Racing Board, Companies clearly need to have control purchased a motor vehicle from Bryan Byrt over labour hire in their organisations. Ford. However, there is a major concern that some companies have adopted a policy of by- Mr Crowley has therefore been advised passing local communities. This is obviously that it would not be valid for him to take part in detrimental to those communities in the long any further operations or deliberations of the term. The group will look at the policies of board. Appropriate remedial action involving mining companies, the development of the validation of all acts and decisions of the agreements for sourcing labour from local Queensland Harness Racing Board during the communities and provision of training period of Mr Crowley's involvement with the opportunities for these local communities. board is presently being put in train. Another issue we are looking at is the Again I stress that, although the zone allowance. I have spoken about this at circumstances surrounding this matter indicate length over many periods. Back in 1949 the a technical breach of the outdated provisions Chifley Government introduced a zone of the Racing and Betting Act 1980, allowance for the people who lived in outback investigations have revealed no impropriety on Queensland. This zone allowance was started the part of any person. off at about 260 pounds. Today that zone allowance is not worth much more. The point I Fly-in Fly-out Employees have been making, and I make again in this Parliament, is that if we are going to attract Mr MULHERIN: My question is directed to men and women to come and live in regional the Minister for Mines and Energy. The issue and remote Queensland, and if we are going of fly-in fly-out has been raised in recent media to attempt to keep people who already live reports along with its effects on regional there, there has to be a realistic zone communities. Can the Minister inform the allowance provided by the Federal House if the Government is doing anything to Government. combat the effects that fly-in fly-out is having on these communities? National Party Preselection, Tablelands Mr McGRADY: I thank the honourable member for Mackay for raising an issue which Mr NELSON: I ask the Premier: with is of grave concern to the men and women reference to the increasingly bizarre struggle who live and work in regional Queensland. I that is the National Party preselection in the am pleased to inform the House that the seat of Tablelands, can he once and for all impact of fly-in fly-out or, indeed, bus-in bus- clear up for the House any family connection out operations, along with the downturn in the he shares with the cunning operator that is number of apprenticeships in the mining Peter Beattie of Atherton? industry, will be directly targeted by a working Mr BEATTIE: I thank the member for his group which I, as the Minister, will chair. question. I understand the battle that is going 3494 Questions Without Notice 5 Oct 2000 on. Indeed, I repeat what I said the other day Parliament. I know that he will have a very ugly in relation to the electorate of Ipswich West: he contest with the National Party as it tries to do wants to be very careful, the National Party will deals, as we see from Ipswich where we have be through his door wanting his preferences. the local National Party person saying, "My Mr Nelson interjected. campaign team will be doing a preference deal to get me elected and I am prepared to talk to Mr BEATTIE: They will not get your anybody. At the end of the day, there is a seat preferences? Excellent! I am glad. Did the to win." That is what he said. member for Ipswich West hear what he said? He has got some standards. I am a bit worried In the lead-up to the election, I warn the about what is going on up in Ipswich West. member that there will be all sorts of shady deals with the National Party. It will do I have to say, I think that this Parliament whatever it possibly can to grab power. The could do with two Peter Beatties. I think it National Party will do and say anything,. So I would be a better place, I really do. I think it warn all members to be careful; they cannot would be a better place. I have to say, as trust anybody from the National Party. That is much as I like the member for Tablelands, I what I have to say. could not think of a better person to be in this House. No doubt with the lack of talent that is Mr Borbidge: Does that include the sort in the National Party, he would rise quickly of deal you did down behind the cow shed with through the ranks and we would have a Joh at Bethany to try and do his own side in? Leader of the Opposition. At least Peter Mr BEATTIE: I just warn everyone that Beattie would be asking me sensible questions the National Party will find it hard to come and Peter Beattie would be giving sensible back, but watch them. I say to all members, answers. At last we would get a decent "They will be nice to your face and they will do question time between the Beatties. That is you in the back. Every one of you have got a something to really look forward to. problem. Do not trust a word they say. You All I can say to the National Party is, "Give cannot trust them." him a go." He comes from the tablelands; he is a decent farmer. I love his name, I love his heritage. Ambulance Staff, Regional Areas Mr Schwarten: I wonder if he's got a dog Mr PITT: I refer the Minister for called Rusty. Emergency Services to the Beattie Labor Mr BEATTIE: I do not want to hear my Government's election commitment to provide dog maligned any more. ambulance officers with more incentives to take up posts in rural and regional areas of Mr Wells: If he asked you a question Queensland and I ask: what steps has the would you be beside yourself? Government taken to honour this Mr BEATTIE: I have to say, I have heard commitment? enough insults. The one about my dog was Mr ROBERTSON: I thank the honourable bad enough. One of my Ministers passed me member for his question and his continuing down something the other day about Rusty for concern for the welfare of our ambulance President—vote small, vote fat, vote dog, vote officers. Rusty. I think people are maligned enough in this House, but I have to say if it means— Finding permanent ambulance staff to live and work in the rural and regional areas of our Opposition members interjected. State is a constant challenge for Queensland Mr SPEAKER: Order! Emergency Services and, in particular, the Mr BEATTIE: I have to say my dog Rusty Queensland Ambulance Service. Officers are would do much better than the Opposition in required to work long hours, attend emergency this House. incidents with little or no support, deal with sensitive cultural and social issues and often A Government member: At least he is live in difficult conditions. loyal. The Beattie Labor Government went to Mr BEATTIE: Yes, at least he is loyal. the last election with a commitment to I come back to the member for developing a rural incentive scheme to Tablelands. The Atherton Tablelands is a encourage officers to seek positions in remote wonderful place. It is one of the best places in and rural Queensland. In fact, my this State, as the member well knows, and he predecessor, Merri Rose, introduced such a has had the honour of representing it in this scheme in 1999 to provide officers prepared to 5 Oct 2000 Questions Without Notice 3495 spend time in remote communities with certain East Coast Trawl Management Plan conditions including special leave, isolation Mr ROWELL: I refer the Minister for bonus, living allowances and an integrated Primary Industries and Rural Communities to transport service. the East Coast Trawl Management Plan for The Queensland Ambulance Service has which the responsibility to fund the State's undertaken a comprehensive review of this $10m share has been dumped on him by the scheme to find ways to improve conditions for Premier. I ask: as no Budget allocation was our ambulance officers and paramedics. This made, how will the trawl plan be funded? Will involved extensive research into other he give a guarantee that the $10m needed to Government departments and extensive buy back fishing licences will not be sourced consultation with ambulance staff throughout from other unrelated sections within his Queensland. I am pleased to say that last department such as animal and plant health, week I signed off on the outcomes of that rural community development and agriculture? review. The new provisions will significantly Mr PALASZCZUK: I thank the honourable enhance the incentives available to officers member for the question. Of course, he transferring into remote areas. Stations have certainly has raised some very important been recategorised from one to seven based issues in relation to the East Coast Trawl on criteria of remoteness and location, with Fishery. seven being the most remote. Category seven This Government is the first Government locations include Bamaga, Aramac, probably since 1980 that is committed to Mornington Island, Cunnamulla, Normanton, ensuring a sustainable fishery along the east Thursday Island, Karumba, Palm Island and coast of Queensland. To do that, we are Weipa. introducing the East Coast Trawl Management Plan which the Opposition, when it was in The category system determines how the Government for two years and four months or QAS allocates rental and locality allowances. whatever it was, put into the back paddock Locality allowances previously paid only to and did absolutely nothing about. category five to seven stations have been extended to include category four stations As Minister for Primary Industries, I expect such as Mount Larcom, Inglewood, Calliope, this plan to be operational from 1 January next Chinchilla, Goondiwindi, Roma and Yarraman year. To ensure that our commercial fishers among others. These increased allowances will once again have input into the plan, it is going be backdated to 1 October this year. The out for consultation as of Friday this week. Part rental subsidy paid to officers will also be of the plan is a $30m restructure package— changed from 15% of their base salary to a $10m from the State Government, $10m from industry, and $10m from the Federal percentage of the market rent, which better Government. As Minister for Primary reflects the cost of living in remote areas, and Industries, I can assure the House that the this is scheduled to occur from 1 January next Government's commitment of $10m will be year. funded. The Government will be spending around As to the extraneous points that the about $385,000 a year to support this revised honourable member opposite raised—the scheme. In the last two Budgets $1.1m has animal, plant and health services—of course, been spent on rural and remote incentives, those industries will not be affected. The plan with almost $1m contained in last year's will be funded through the Department of Budget for new ambulance staff residences at Primary Industries and it will not affect any Coen, Karumba, Mornington Island and Mount other industries. Garnett. This year's Budget also includes In conclusion, could I say that as Minister funds for remote housing and a replacement for Primary Industries, I am proud to stand station at Bamaga, the construction of an before this House and be responsible— ambulance residence at Charleville, a new A Government member interjected. station and residence at Doomadgee, remote housing at Hocking Point and residences on Mr PALASZCZUK: Of course, I am Mornington Island. wearing the appropriate badge. I am proud to be standing in this House as the Minister who In addition, a field officer will be appointed finally is going to introduce an East Coast to enhance free hospital care to remote Cape Trawl Management Plan that will really achieve York communities. This demonstrates our what is sought—to maintain a sustainable ongoing commitment to rural and remote fishery for Queensland and in the end provide Queensland. profits for our commercial fishers and the 3496 Questions Without Notice 5 Oct 2000 processors who are dependent upon that hairy-nosed wombat is one of world's most fishery. endangered mammals. Our Government, through the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service, has in place a recovery plan. One of Hairy-nosed Wombat its main aims is to establish another population Mr PEARCE: I ask the Minister for of the northern hairy-nosed wombat to give it a Environment and Heritage and Minister for better chance of survival. Natural Resources: can he inform the House of These recovery efforts would be greatly the efforts that the Queensland Government is enhanced by corporate support for the making to save the hairy-nosed wombat from northern hairy-nosed wombat. Sponsorship extinction? would enable a regular census and more Honourable members interjected. detailed research. Today, I am pleased to be Mr PEARCE: I have a second part to the able to invite Queensland business and question. I would like also the Minister to industry to get behind Queensland's own advise the House if the hairy-nosed wombat is battler's prince. If a fat, furry, Mexican Fatso any relative to the now famous Olympic can bring $80,000, I can only imagine what we wombat known as Fatso. might attract to keep our very own Queensland hairy-nosed wombats alive and well. I am sure Mr WELFORD: I thank the honourable that it is a challenge that Queensland business member for his question. As members might and industry will embrace. realise, a fat, furry, stuffed wombat became legendary as the battlers' prince of the Sydney Olympics and was sold for over $80,000 at the Industrial Relations end of the Olympics—purchased, I understand, by Kerry Stokes on behalf of Mrs SHELDON: My question is to the Channel 7. Every night during the Olympics we Minister for Employment, Training and watched Roy and H. G. face the most Industrial Relations. Considering the industrial attractive end of the wombat towards the chaos evident in today's stop-work on 40 cameras and sell its virtues as an Australian Government construction sites around the icon and a symbol of the Games. State and the Minister's union mates rioting in front of Parliament House, I ask: if the However, for those members who may Government is so much the friend of the union not have realised, Fatso was, in fact, a movement, as it constantly claims to be, why southern hairy-nosed wombat—a New South has not the Minister, as Minister for Industrial Wales variety. Not surprisingly, there are plenty Relations, had any success in persuading the of them, even without the 125 carat gold AWU and the electricians union of the not-to- versions handed out so discriminatingly by Roy be-missed benefits available under his new- and H. G. But alas, Queensland's own age IR system? wombat, the northern hairy-nosed wombat, Fatso's esteemed cousin, is battling just to Mr BRADDY: In relation to the industrial survive. The only known surviving population is disputation record in Queensland, already this 75 northern hairy-nosed wombats in the morning the Premier has placed on record the Epping Forest National Park near Clermont. fact that Queensland is by far the best place to be on the eastern coast of Australia compared Last month, to keep track of numbers our to what occurred as a result of the actions of scientists conducted a hair census of the the member's colleague, Premier Kennett in northern hairy-nosed wombat. They used Victoria, who took away that State's industrial some unusual techniques, including using relations system. That State had an sticky tape to catch the hair samples and toy extraordinary level of disputation. In recent cars to take cameras down burrows. As it years, in Queensland the highest incidence of turned out, 1,600 hair samples, from which industrial disputes occurred when the DNA will be extracted, were collected on Opposition was in Government. double-sided sticky tape at the entrance to the burrows. Although we will not have the results Mr SANTORO: I rise to a point of order. for two or three months, the team returned The Minister is misleading the Parliament. The with some bad news. They found five young lowest level of industrial disputation in the wombats dead, probably killed by feral history of Queensland was reached under the animals. coalition Government. Although a trapping program is now under Mr SPEAKER: That is debating the issue. way to reduce the number of predators, this That is not a point of order. was a stark reminder of the threat to these Mr BRADDY: The coalition Government wonderful endangered animals. The northern also holds the record of producing the highest 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3497 level of disputation in recent years. It has for our State. The growth and prosperity of certainly never reached anything like that level Queensland's food and fibre industries in the two years that we have been in depends on its ability to respond to global and Government. local consumer demands. An investment in We have had support from many people research and development is an investment in in Queensland, and not only those in the the future. union movement. We have had support from However, I contrast that commitment with the Australian industry group in relation to that of the Federal Government. The latest using Queensland's industrial laws and the criticism of the Federal Government's Queensland Industrial Relations Commission. commitment has come from one of the But people make their choices. They pay their inaugural winners of the Prime Minister's Prize money and they take their chances. That is for Science presented this week. Dr Liz Dennis what is occurring. told ABC radio— The level of industrial disputation in this "If we don't do the research, don't State, which is in the sixties, is far, far less than get some of the intellectual property for the level of disputation in Victoria or in New Australia, we're just going to be left South Wales. From time to time there will be behind." industrial disputation. We point out to the With those warnings, surely no-one would unions and to the employers that we have an entrust the Federal Government with a Industrial Relations Commission that can assist research and development policy. them. No doubt the commission will assist in relation to these matters. Time expired. Those people have the right to make their Mr SPEAKER: The time for questions has point of view via a demonstration. However, expired. the facts remain that if people want record levels of industrial disputation, they should go TRANSPORT (BUSWAY AND LIGHT RAIL) to Victoria, where the Peter Reith laws are the AMENDMENT BILL only laws that are available. In 1997 the level of industrial disputation in Queensland—which Second Reading was when the member for Caloundra was the Resumed from 4 October (see p. 3431). Treasurer—was far higher than any level of Mr JOHNSON (Gregory—NPA) disputation that has ever been reached in (11.30 a.m.), continuing: Yesterday evening I Queensland under the Beattie Labor was speaking about the concerns the Government. Opposition had in relation to compensation. I am happy to see that the Minister has now Primary Industries Research and endeavoured to address that issue. I believe Development the Property Council of Queensland still has grave concerns about the compensation issue. Ms NELSON-CARR: I refer the Minister for I seek the Minister's assurance that there has Primary Industries and Rural Communities to been proper and full consultation and that the the fact that under the Federal coalition council should have no further concerns. I am Government investment in research and amazed that no further consideration has development in Australia has actually fallen, been given to compensation for the impact on and I ask: can the Minister detail what property owners during the construction phase. investment the Queensland Government is Yesterday evening the Minister said that he making in research and development for the would have his departmental officers give us a State's primary industries sector? briefing. Unfortunately, this morning we were Mr PALASZCZUK: Under our not able to take advantage of that. But we Government, Queensland agriculture has an certainly will be listening with interest to the unprecedented commitment to research, Minister's reply and to his comments on the development and extension. The Agency for clauses to see whether this has been Food and Fibre Sciences, established last year addressed and whether it has been canvassed within the Department of Primary Industries, properly. has an annual budget allocation of more than What the Minister said during his second- $141m. reading speech is worthy of further This Government knows that a strong consideration. As usual, sometimes this investment in agricultural research, Government listens and sometimes it does development and extension will deliver not. Sometimes it does not say what it really economic, social and environmental benefits means. Some of issues canvassed in the Bill 3498 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 are significant for the ongoing viability and A major concern of this Parliament is the prosperity of businesses. What about the withdrawal of common law rights in relation to Government's 5% unemployment target? We damages incurred during the construction should not be wreaking havoc through the phase of a project. This is a departure from planning process. We have to get the planning fundamental legislative principles, because it is right, whether it be in relation to Briztram, affecting common law entitlements. The busways or any other type of infrastructure, reason for these provisions, which the Minister transport related or otherwise. avoided in his second-reading speech, is In his second-reading speech the Minister outlined in the Explanatory Notes, which referred to the key features addressed in the basically state that because these claims are Bill, such as tenure, public utility interaction, hard to calculate and could be quite extensive compensation entitlements, accreditation of it is necessary to abolish the right so that a light rail managers and provisions for incident defined budget for a project can be management and aspects governing implemented. I am amazed that the Minister preliminary investigatory works. Interestingly, would raise the accuracy of the budget these aspects referred to by the Minister predictions by his department, because we applied only to the light rail provisions and not have already discussed the department's to the busway provisions. In his speech the recent noticeable failures in this regard. Minister said— The coalition questions this rationalisation "... compensation is not provided ... for a and contends that there is a far greater cost to loss of amenity or any interference with an the community if these rights are abolished. activity of a business, commercial, There is not just a cost to the economy industrial or residential nature". through the businesses and jobs that are likely to fold because of disruption during the This statement by the Minister seems to relate construction phase of these projects. By the to the proposed sections 180ZG(2) and same token, the coalition understands that the 180ZZS(2), both of which clearly state that the Government leaves itself liable to open slather matters which are not compensatable are— legal claims by every business that would like "(a) the adverse affect on the amenity or to blame any downturn in business upon the likely amenity of the neighbourhood Government. And we have witnessed that in of the relevant land; and relation to the construction of the Pacific (b) interference with an activity of a Motorway and other major projects around the business, commercial, industrial or State. The important thing to remember is that residential nature carried out on the there should be full and proper consultation. relevant land; and We learnt that lesson with the Pacific Motorway. It is a lesson that probably many (c) loss or damage arising directly or honourable members have learnt. The former indirectly from interference with Labor Government learnt about what happens access for the relevant land; and when there is a lack of consultation in relation (d) the reduction or loss of a right of to major capital works. We all saw the angst access for the relevant land and loss that created for the former Goss Government. or damage caused by the reduction It is most important to recognise that ..." everybody has a right to be heard and to It would be improper for me not to raise make a claim so that they can protect what these issues today. As I said earlier, I will be they believe is rightfully theirs. Everyone waiting for the Minister to comment on those should be given the opportunity to gain a fair clauses, because we believe they are very understanding of what is trying to be achieved. important. I am sure that upon his revisiting We suggest that it might be appropriate to put the legislation the Minister will see their in place a review process that addresses the importance. In both cases, the compensation concerns of any business operator or resident relates only to the physical access to the who claims to be disadvantaged during the property, but this applies when the project has construction phase to ensure the project team been completed. We await the Minister's is showing due regard to legitimate concerns. I comments. The Minister has already admitted think that the Minister would have to agree that there have been substantial cost blow- with that. It is an issue that needs to be looked outs in the SET Project. This includes as yet at very, very closely. If that happened I think it unquantified delay in the provision of the could avoid a lot of heartache in future not transit lanes between the Logan and Gateway only for Governments, departmental officers Motorways. and construction companies but also for those 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3499 people out there who want to be given a fair I am now going to talk about the inner- go and exercise their rights to be heard. northern busway. I do not know what the state of play is now in relation to the $65m payment As I touched on in this House yesterday from the Federal Government. I hope that we evening, it is only right that we recognise what can secure that money and that it can be we are trying to achieve with the IRTP. I spent in Queensland to play a significant role certainly support that totally, and I know the in some of these transport infrastructure Minister questioned me yesterday afternoon programs that we are trying to initiate to about what I thought about it. I will not resile alleviate problems within the south-east, from that. The important factor is that we keep whether it be in the City of Brisbane or in other talking about the importance of it so we can major centres in this region. get the best value from the document. A lot of people think that that document is set in Despite his protestations that everything granite. I think it should be stressed and made was proceeding normally, the Minister finally known publicly that it is a document that has had to admit to the House that the contract for flexibility. If it did not have flexibility, it certainly the essential link between the Queen Street would not achieve the objectives that it was bus tunnel and the Normanby had met the put in place to achieve in the first place. same fate—the scrap heap—as the light rail project. The consequence is that buses I also note that the Alert Digest states that wishing to access the inner-northern busway one of the often occurring criticisms of this will now have to use Adelaide, George and legislation is that there are no appeal Roma Streets, which means that northern mechanisms provided in relation to a number suburbs buses will now be diverted down the of areas. One example is where the chief already seriously congested Roma Street executive exercises his power to enter land. I precinct. ask the Minister to consider the establishment of an appeal body to review matters of this This proposal makes a complete joke of type. Such an appeal body may also be the inner-northern busway. I predict that the appropriate to review cases of dissatisfaction journey for express buses from the Queen with access arrangements, etc. during the Street bus tunnel to the northern suburbs is construction phases, as I have just said. likely to take longer than the current route. Also, Roma Street will not be able to Since the legislation was introduced, adequately handle the increased bus traffic. busway construction has become more topical Roma Street is already a disaster in the with the news that the first stage of the inner- afternoon peak hours. With increased bus northern busway has also been scrapped by traffic, it now has every chance of becoming this can't do Labor Government. Yesterday I known as the Steve Bredhauer Car Park, but I touched on the Brisbane/Valley bypass. While hope that does not become a reality. That is that is a very significant route, one for which not because I do not want to see a car park we have been waiting for a long time, and I named after the Minister, but because at the am pleased to see it start, there are certainly end of the day we are trying to put in place going to be complications at the other end of something that is going to work, not something that bypass in terms of accessing areas such that is going to fail. as Breakfast Creek. Because widening cannot I assure the Minister that there would be a be carried out there, how is the congestion bipartisan approach on this because I believe going to be eliminated? that, considering their magnitude, cost and That was one of the issues that I asked purpose, we have to make absolutely certain the Minister to address. I am not playing that these capital works programs work. That is politics with this; I am stating a point today that something that I have always given an is very valid and that causes me concern. I assurance on. We are talking here about hope that the connector road at the other end taxpayers' money, something to which I is not going to become a bottleneck. That is believe we have to give some serious the one concern that we have. I can see the consideration. Minister grinning. I understand that the Minister has Mr Bredhauer: You didn't have a talk to indicated that he has taken on board my Santo overnight, did you? reservations about the compensation provisions under this legislation and has Mr JOHNSON: No, I did not, actually. No circulated some amendments, which I will doubt he will make comment, too. I know he is touch on again during the debate on the on the list of speakers. I did not speak to the clauses. The Minister and his staff were kind honourable member for Clayfield overnight. enough to provide me with a briefing about 3500 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 some of the other issues which the Minister House which stakeholders have been proposes to address in the Committee stage. consulted about the amendments concerning The first relates to the busway acquisition and the exemption from the Trade Practices Act the need to again validate the acquisition and also what consultation he conducted in process. One of the first things that the relation to compensation. Minister introduced into the House was As I said, this Bill has sat on the table for retrospective validating legislation in relation to the past five months. The excessive use of the South Bank property. If I recall correctly, at amendments to the legislation at the that time the Minister also advised that this Committee stage provides an opportunity to legislation was necessary because the legal introduce legislation that cannot be properly advice gained at the time of acquisition was scrutinised in the accepted manner; that can incorrect. We now have a similar situation in result only in bad legislation. I hope that is not which there is some doubt about the the situation in this case. The other day the acquisition of other SET property. I am sure Minister for Environment and Heritage brought that this is a significant issue for the into the House 65 pages of amendments to department. I must express my concern that the Water Bill on the morning of the day the that is the second example of the department Bill was scheduled for debate. I need the getting incorrect advice. Obviously this is not a Minister's response to some of the other matter that the Minister or the department is issues that I have raised before I will be in a directly responsible for, but I would like the position to recommend support for this piece Minister to respond to this issue in his of legislation. summation, because it appears to be an ongoing matter of concern. Whether it is applicable to just the south- On a similar note, I am advised that there east corner or the whole of the State, this are also legal deficiencies in the marine transport infrastructure legislation is a very legislation which require validation, and powerful piece of legislation. I believe it is a validation is apparently also going to be very good piece of legislation. We certainly do included in amendments to the Bill in the not want to see amendments made to the Bill Committee stage. I also note that the that will be misunderstood by the general amendments in Committee will make provision public. We have to make absolutely certain for legitimisation of certain aspects of the that that does not occur, that the purpose of integrated ticketing project and the Citytrain legislation is there for the benefit of the initiative. I am advised that this amendment general public. will be necessary to ensure that the Yesterday we heard the Premier say in cooperation between the various transport answer to a question in relation to the foot providers necessary to bring about the bridge across the river that the cost has blown integrated fares does not breach aspects of out from $13m or $14m to $17m or $18m. I the Trade Practices Act. believe there are more pressing issues which I must express concern about the use of that money could be used for. I also heard the Committee stage to introduce legislation what the Premier had to say in relation to the which is obviously so different from the aims use of that bridge and why the cost had blown and objectives of the amending Bill. It would out. I again put on the record the fact that be very wrong of me if I did not put on record there was a cost blow-out with the Pacific today that this legislation has now been on the Motorway. I am well aware of that. We can be table of the House for some five months. As I critical of each other's policies and projects, but say, I am concerned that the Minister when there is a blow-out in the cost of a presented these amendments to us in the project I believe the general public should be House only yesterday. I believe that we should told the truth of the matter. It should not be have seen some of those amendments in their hidden from them through embarrassment to entirety before yesterday. I believe that, the Government or any department. The because of the complexity of this piece of general public is not silly. They become aware legislation, it should have had more exposure if there is a problem. If there is a problem, we to the general public to put to bed any should be honest about it. concerns they have. I express that concern I now turn to the South East Transit again, because we are denied the opportunity Project. As I said to the Minister before, it is to consult the affected stakeholders. It seems about getting it right the first time. I will make that this legislation also avoids the Scrutiny of certain of that. That is why more money had to Legislation Committee. I know that it had be spent on the Pacific Motorway; I recognise some reservations about some aspects of it, that tomorrow will be a great day. The prime too. I would like the Minister to advise the objective of all major capital works programs in 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3501

Transport and Main Roads, and any other CBD. I therefore welcome the opportunity to department for that matter, is to create contribute to the debate on this Bill. something which is world class. We are talking All of us in south-east Queensland are about transport corridors and future initiatives keen to see it remain attractive to both live and which will give this State the ability to develop, work in. Of course, transport plays a key role in grow, prosper, create jobs and create a quality that. It is a key driver of the livability and the of life for its citizens. economic development of the south-east The opening of the Pacific Motorway corner. As a State Government, we tomorrow will be a symbolic occasion. I understand the importance of transport to the congratulate all and sundry for the great work livability of south-east Queensland and to the and effort they have put into this motorway idea of implementing a long-term integrated over the past four years. It is a magnificent plan for transport in the region. In my project, one that I and every other member in electorate there are two major bus/rail this Chamber is very proud of. I want to put on interchanges. The first is at Sandgate, which record the hard yards put in by the project assists people who reside in the adjoining area manager, Bob Higgins. It would be remiss of of Redcliffe. The second is a new one currently me if I did not mention him. He has done a being developed at Carseldine, which is on the very able job. He is a very able engineer. He is edge of my electorate, which takes in the fast- a very able negotiator. I think he is an absolute growing suburbs of Fitzgibbon, Taigum and champion. He has been subjected to many Bracken Ridge. That new bus/rail interchange hardships and personal traumas during this was launched recently. project, not unlike Don Steele during the SET The Integrated Regional Transport Plan Project. He is also doing great work. for south-east Queensland is a balanced plan I also recognise the work done by that covers all modes of transport. It was departmental heads such as Dick Wharton, my developed after significant consultation with director-general when in Government. I thank industry groups, with business and the him and his departmental officers for their community. The Integrated Regional Transport great work and advice. Mr Jim Varghese then Plan, IRTP, sets targets to increase the took over as Director-General of Main Roads. number of people travelling by public transport, Currently, Main Roads is headed by Steve sets targets for people in terms of walking, Golding. Under the stewardship of Steve cycling and car pooling and is based on the Golding, these great projects will continue. principle that we can no longer continue to build more and more roads for cars, especially Mr Sullivan: There are a lot of good in relation to travel into the CBD. The key to officers, aren't there? managing congestion is to move large Mr JOHNSON: Absolutely. I salute the numbers of the public in high capacity public Minister's choice of a director-general for Main transport systems. Congestion will not be Roads. Steve Golding is a very able man who solved by simply building more roads for cars will do a great job. Main Roads will be with single occupants. rewarded for having him as its steward. In The honourable member for Nudgee and closing, I say to the Minister that we will be I travelled to Perth either early this year or late waiting anxiously to hear his response to what last year to study transport infrastructure in that I have raised about amendments and city. We spent considerable time with therefore reserve the right to support the departmental officers in Perth to look at how legislation in question. they are trying to solve their transport problems Mr NUTTALL (Sandgate—ALP) by encouraging people to use public transport. (11.53 a.m.): I am particularly pleased to rise The IRTP is therefore based on moving people to speak to the Transport (Busway and Light and goods, not vehicles, as past plans have Rail) Amendment Bill as a member of done. It contains a series of actions to identify Parliament whose electorate is in the south- future corridors, to provide new and upgraded east corner of Queensland. My electorate is on infrastructure, to improve and coordinate the outer edge of the northern suburbs of the services and information, to improve the link Brisbane City Council. A large number of my between transport and land use planning, and constituents rely very heavily on public of course to provide for travel demand transport. In the eight years I have been the management measures. member for Sandgate I have certainly seen a As we know, the plan is not set in huge increase in the traffic going into the concrete. It is a document which is updated by Brisbane CBD and hence the difficulty and the the shorter-term IRTP of the 2007 Vision. That increased time it takes to get to the Brisbane draft vision is a seven-year action plan which 3502 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 provides a clear picture of what the transport given circumstances in large urban areas. To system should look like in the medium term. A the extent that this Bill is generic and not major focus of the IRTP in the 2007 Vision is limited to particular works currently being on improving public transport. The vision is for undertaken or proposed in Brisbane, it is also, a world-class, integrated public transport as the shadow Minister the member for system. This integrated system will include rail, Gregory has indicated, an appropriate way to busways, bus networks, ferries and intermodal go. facilities. Some people have questioned the The State Government has had major amount of money spent on the development transport achievements in south-east of busways in Brisbane. Others have raised a Queensland under the IRTP. Major investment range of environmental and town planning has been occurring in the rail network, issues. Many others have questioned whether including 30 additional three-car sets, the money spent could and should have been additional tracks on the northern line—and a directed elsewhere. In my view many of those lot of work has been going on there—rail concerns have merit, but it is clear that extensions on the Gold Coast, and the dedicated public transport corridors, arrived at Brisbane Airport rail link, which is very visual at after extensive community consultation and, the moment. Of course, not all suburbs in whenever possible, agreement, are needed if Brisbane can be serviced by rail. That is where any appreciable progress is to be made in the busways and the bus priority measures reducing the use of private motor vehicles, come into play. The south-east busway and together with the associated problems that the inner-northern busway are key projects flow from that usage. Many of our road which we believe will make bus travel faster, systems are in gridlock not only during peak more convenient and more reliable. These traffic periods but, increasingly, also at other projects are being supported by improved times of the day or week. passenger information and integrated I am deliberately using the term "transport ticketing, which we all waited for. That is all part corridors" because it was the of the bigger plan for the south-east Borbidge/Sheldon Government, with the Queensland transport system. visionary member for Gregory as Transport While many of these achievements focus Minister, which first directed the bureaucrats to on supplying new transport infrastructure, ensure that the busways being constructed or Queensland Transport is also working towards planned would be light rail compatible. That better managing travel demands. Travel was not an initiative of this Government. If the demand management can play an important Minister looks at his departmental files he will role in making better use of existing transport see that planning on making the busways light capacity. Queensland Transport is currently rail compatible—they were actually built with developing a range of pilot projects and a tram tracks embedded in them at the travel demand management strategy to construction stage—was being progressed encourage people to walk, cycle, catch public prior to the June 1998 election. I might add: as transport or car pool more often. I understand it, this far-sighted transport planning was not greeted with much Improving public transport by construction enthusiasm by some in the Transport of busways is a key part of providing a better Department. I will turn to some problems that I transport system for south-east Queensland. see with the advice emanating from that body We believe this legislation works towards later in my contribution. achieving just that. I strongly support this legislation because I believe it aligns with Likewise, I have made it clear on many south-east Queensland's transport plan and is occasions that I am a very strong supporter of vital to the liveability of the region. As I said a modern tramway system for Brisbane. The earlier, my electorate relies very heavily on Briztram project, which was spearheaded by public transport. I am particularly pleased to the Premier's Department under the coalition have the opportunity today to support the Bill Government of this State in 1997 and 1998, before the House. was a magnificent and visionary project. It was that project which attracted the interest of the Mr SANTORO (Clayfield—LP) (12 p.m.): private sector and which was allocated $65m There is no doubt that specific legislative by the Commonwealth from the Centenary of provisions are required to facilitate busway and Federation Fund. However, from the word go light rail developments in this State. Likewise, the words and the actions of this Beattie Labor there is no doubt that modern tramways and Government undermined the confidence in busways are appropriate transport initiatives in and technical viability of the Briztram project. 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3503

Let us look at this Government's record in of many other and equally strong criticisms relation to this project. When this Government which eventually saw the Government came to office it initially scrapped the project, abandon its version of a once-proud Briztram only to reinvent it under a new name. It project. justified this backflip by claiming that the One matter that has to be tackled head Briztram project was going to use old on in this debate is the fact that this technology, by not proceeding with the link to Government, as well as any other, needs to the University of Queensland and by changing ensure that each taxpayer dollar spent on from standard gauge to narrow gauge, public transport achieves maximum returns to claiming that this would result in a link between the community and the environment. These heavy and light rail corridors and infrastructure. were also concerns raised by Mr Elliott of the All of the changes visited on the Briztram Property Council. project by this Government were retrograde ones, in my view. A great project aimed at The Courier-Mail carried a report on 29 achieving public transport, urban renewal, April which highlighted the limited plans for tourism, heritage and commercial objects was transport infrastructure outside Brisbane. The deliberately vandalised and eventually report was prepared by researchers at the abandoned. University of Queensland. The Courier-Mail article states in part— What the Minister and his Government proposed was a narrow gauge and narrow- "The report argues that part of the visioned project which most people in problem is the limited plans for transport infrastructure and finance came to regard as infrastructure outside of Brisbane city. And economically unviable, which most businesses, plans that are being undertaken occur in as well as the Property Council, saw as areas where the current levels of public disruptive and which most independent transport access are the highest. The transport planners saw as achieving next to report criticises the priorities behind major nothing in terms of getting people out of cars infrastructure projects such as busways and onto public transport. Not only that, but and light rail which do not improve access, one of the key pillars of this new project was only service speed." dynamited by Vince O'Rourke, the Chief There is a lot to be said for that sort of Executive of Queensland Rail. I will say more analysis. In fact, commuters in some outer about that in a minute. suburban areas, such as Browns Plains, which In the end, and because of the above do not have any rail access and where no and other reasons, it is a matter of lamentable dedicated busways are being constructed were public record that the Briztram project had to quite rightly asking whether hundreds of be abandoned. Given that it was this millions of dollars of public funds should be Government's Briztram project, I suppose that diverted into high profile projects such as was a good thing. It was abandoned because Brisbane light rail without this Government and the Minister and his Government's project was this Minister demonstrating that it is money deliberately burdened with structural flaws, well spent. Undoubtedly, pressure such as this extra costs and minimal public transport also forced the Government's hand when it benefits. Many people and organisations abandoned the Briztram project. articulated very loudly to this effect including, Where I would differ with the authors of for example, the Property Council of Australia. the report is in the assumption that Just days after it was announced in this metropolitan Brisbane is well served by public year's Federal Budget that $15m had been set transport. In part that is correct, but the aside for the light rail project, the executive Transport Minister would know all too well that director of the council, Ross Elliott, called on the BCC needs appropriate financial the Federal Treasurer to withdraw the funds. assistance with its bus fleet, yet under this He said— Government that assistance is not forthcoming because so much money is being diverted into "The light rail system will not improve projects. Let the Minister deny that. transport in the city. It will make it worse. I now wish to touch on a few of the major Streets will be permanently clogged. It's drawbacks with the now defunct Brisbane light basically a project foisted on the inner city rail project and how this Bill only exacerbated by transport bureaucrats. Transport the problems—problems which eventually saw planners who don't work for the State the demise of the project. First, as I said, the Government think it's a joke." scrapping of the link between the city and the These were very serious criticisms which University of Queensland, in order to placate could not be brushed aside, and were several Councillor Tim Quinn and a few protesters in 3504 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

West End, was not only bad politics but, even different electrical supply system would be worse, bad transport planning. There was and required for light and heavy rail vehicles. He still is a pressing need to have a light rail link would have been advised of potential between the CBD and the university campus. problems with wheels for light rail vehicles It would have and still would reduce traffic travelling both on roads and on rail tracks. congestion on Milton Road and Coronation Perhaps he would have been given a safety Drive, as well as provide a key transport audit of the risks posed to passengers in light service. Not only that, but the financial rail vehicles in the event of a collision with a modelling carried out prior to the 1998 election train. Surely he would have been advised of would have shown, if I am not mistaken, that the problems of integrating slower moving the passengers generated from that route trams with trains on the same tracks, especially were fundamental to the financial viability of a the most heavily used tracks in Queensland. BOOT scheme. No doubt he would have weighed up the The scrapping of this route not only benefits of either integrating trams with placed a cloud over the worth of a light rail busways, as the coalition planned, or with service from a transport and community heavy rail, as was now proposed. viewpoint but also raised very serious financial Certainly in all of this the Minister would probity issues about the ability of private have been briefed, or should have been companies to operate the service without briefed, by and consulted with Queensland receiving significant and ongoing public Rail. Yet, in his submission to the Travelsafe subsidies in the guise of community service Committee on its Inquiry into Public Transport obligation payments or other more inventive in South-East Queensland, dated 11 February, means. Vince O'Rourke directly contradicts the assumptions of the Department of Transport The other major difference between the with respect to light and heavy rail integration Beattie Government's vision of the project and and casts grave doubts on the wisdom of Briztram is the fact that narrow gauge tracks going down this path. He said— were to be utilised. The rationale for this seemingly retrograde step was the goal of "Inherent also in the philosophy of integrating light and heavy rail. As I modal integration is the need to avoid understand it, the genesis of this idea came unnecessary duplication of services from a study tour to Europe in May 1998 to and/or infrastructure in a particular inspect light rail services, organised by PPK corridor. An example of current transport and attended by Bill Upton from the BCC and planning which appears to be contrary to John Gralton, the then Deputy Director- this philosophy is the proposal by General of the Department of Transport. While Queensland Transport for light rail overseas, these persons inspected the between Capalaba and Indooroopilly to Karlsruhe light and heavy rail system. This operate using the heavy rail network. German town was the first in Europe to Such duplication of services within investigate and implement track sharing for individual corridors is considered light and heavy rail vehicles. inappropriate particularly given the The advice that the Minister received limitations on transport budgets and that following this trip pushed the idea of other corridors may not have any line haul integrating light and heavy rail. It was based service at all. on a one-day tour of a rather small, quite In any case, intermixing of heavy and unique and quite quaint, I am told, rural light rail services on the Roma Street to German town—a German town, I emphasise, Indooroopilly section may not be practical not a city, and one without much heavy rail given different operating characteristics, traffic. I suggest that the Minister asks his track capacity and the substantial use of bureaucrats just how similar Karlsruhe and this line by rail freight traffic." Brisbane are, because I am sure, from what The question which had to be asked was he has said to date in relation to the now whether the basis underlying the move to have defunct light rail project, that he would not narrow gauge tracks, so that there would be have a clue. integration between heavy and light rail, had The problem here was that Queensland been totally misconceived. Certainly Vince Rail obviously was not properly consulted. This O'Rourke, a public servant with decades of Minister was sold a pup, I suggest, by some of excellent, exemplary service, thought so and his advisers, which was grabbed with both said so. He was—and still is for a little while hands to justify the Briztram backflip. No doubt longer—one of the Government's most senior the Minister would have been advised that a advisers in the area of transport policy. 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3505

The problem was that, by focusing on Two matters which are specifically heavy rail integration and narrow gauge tracks excluded from any compensation are: firstly, and vehicles, numerous problems arose. the adverse effect on the amenity or likely There were significant extra costs for the amenity of the neighbourhood of the relevant proponents of the Beattie Labor Government's land; and, secondly, interference with an projects. There were safety issues and there activity of a business, commercial, industrial or was a focus on particular routes and services residential nature carried out on the relevant which may not be economically feasible or land. The Bill therefore totally prohibits people sensible from a transport planning perspective. adversely affected from exercising their legal One of the components of Briztram was rights. the refurbishing of the tramway museum and The Scrutiny of Legislation Committee in using heritage trams in Brisbane on Sundays Alert Digest No. 4 said— to attract tourists. This Government had "The Bill explicitly denies landowners proceeded with this worthwhile initiative, as the and occupiers adversely affected by the Minister pointed out in his second-reading development or operation of busways or speech. The problem was that these trams, light rail systems the ability to claim together with almost every other single compensation for loss of amenity or for tramway and light rail system in the world, use interference with commercial or residential standard gauge tracks. So what was being activities." proposed was the investment of a few million dollars refurbishing trams that could not even A number of justifications have been given for be used on the Brisbane light rail system. That this denial of justice, including the need for was another very big problem. In fact, it was certainty in forecasting projected costs. That is another example of the stupidity of what was cold comfort for the many businesspeople who going on. spoke to me and who spoke to the honourable member for Gregory and other members of The tenderers for this project highlighted this House. These people were very worried to the department their concern about the use about the impact that the construction and of narrow gauge tracks, but their concerns operation of the now defunct light rail network were not properly investigated. Part of the would have had on their operations. But their problem with the Government's light rail project concerns were not limited to access issues. was that it lost the support of the Property There was also a range of other problems, Council and most business people in the inner including noise, overhead wires, pylons, city now saw it as an impediment to their reduction in through traffic and the like. enterprises rather than a catalyst for greater retailing opportunities. The provisions within To introduce a Bill such as this which will the Bill that we are debating today will only deprive people of any legal rights and justify it exacerbate the problem. When one reads this on the basis that it facilitates project Bill one discovers a raft of measures that limit forecasting is unacceptable. Rather, it is a sure citizen's rights and expose them to intrusive sign that the Government expected that the invasions of property and privacy. construction of the light rail network would be very disruptive to business and was keen to I am particularly concerned about the prevent people whose commercial enterprises provisions which limit compensation would have been badly affected from having entitlements for persons who are adversely the right to be properly compensated. affected by busways and light rail projects. I have cut down my contribution in this respect I say to the Minister that this is a very bad because I heard the honourable member for precedent and one which I believe will further Gregory, the shadow Minister, make similar drive down business confidence at a critical representations. In the time I have left, time. however, I would like to mention some Mr Bredhauer: It is a precedent that concerns in that area. governs compensation for property acquisition For example, proposed section 180ZZS in every other Act and has been the norm in provides that a person having an interest in Queensland for more than 100 years. land has no entitlement in law, except as Mr SANTORO: What we are talking about provided for by this Bill, to compensation for here is an attempt by this Government not to matters connected with the establishment of a consider any meaningful compensation at all light rail, or the establishment or proposed for a group of people in the middle of the establishment of light rail transport capital city of this State. There are massive infrastructure on light rail land or the operation commercial implications in the construction of of light rail. a major piece of infrastructure such as that 3506 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 which the Minister was proposing. The As I said at the outset, I support compensation factors that were involved and legislation assisting proper busway and light the loss of commercial amenity and return as a rail developments. It is clear that generic result of what the Minister was proposing were legislation is required and, as the honourable enormous. I fully understand the precedent, member for Gregory, the shadow Minister said, but that precedent applied—— we support it. However, the way that the Mr Bredhauer: It is not a precedent. Brisbane light rail development was initially pursued causes me considerable concern in Mr SANTORO: What the Minister was relation to the motives and modus operandi of facing was the commercial demise of this Government. This concern is further businesses within the centre of the capital city compounded when I see the sort of limitations of the State. The Minister knows that. on citizens' rights that this Bill mandated to Although the immediate threats of facilitate a project which was, in the end, a Briztram to small businesses and large Labor Party project of marginal utility and businesses have been removed, the general which now, thankfully, has been abandoned. principles within this Bill will be detrimental to When people such as Ross Elliott of the the welfare of small businesses either in Property Council come out and attack the light Brisbane or elsewhere in the State who in the rail project in the terms that they did, the future may be subjected to the impact of Minister and his department—and I give him similar projects. Take, for example, the credit for this—did the right thing and notorious amendments to the State abandoned a project that had well and truly Development and Public Works Organization gone off the rails. Act that we debated last year. This Bill gives I still support a light rail system for over-the-top powers to enter and occupy Brisbane. However, it is a light rail system that private property. The worry is that the person had the breadth of vision and the practical low who is given this draconian power is the chief cost benefits that the coalition and the executive of the Department of Transport. previous Minister's light rail project would have Again, this is no reflection on the person who given Brisbane. The current Minister and the is occupying that position at the moment or Beattie Labor Government squandered, any person who may occupy it in the future. It indeed butchered, such a worthwhile project is a power which cannot be challenged. There and I believe that this will be regarded as one is no merits review of the decision of this of their most obvious policy and bureaucrat to allow third persons to enter onto implementation failures. private property and carry out works. In conclusion, I just very briefly state in The Scrutiny of Legislation Committee relation to the City-Valley bypass, that like the has raised this and other issues for the honourable member for Gregory, I support the consideration of the Parliament, and I think construction of a City-Valley bypass, but not that the Minister needs to explain why there is the current Brisbane City Council's version no provision for a merits review and why so because that planning and construction much power is being given to a non-elected process, as I have explained to the Minister, and non-accountable person. has gone ahead without any consultation with Again, this and other matters may be the many thousands of residents who will be worthy of debate during the Committee stage especially and adversely affected as a result of as it is clear that this Bill gives extremely broad that particular project being constructed in the powers, the exercise of which could result in way it is. significant financial and other harm to private Mr REEVES (Mansfield—ALP) property owners. The fact that there are one or (12.22 p.m.): South-east Queensland is one of two precedents for this sort of draconian power Australia's fast growing regions, as we all is not a good enough excuse. I say to the know. As such, it faces high demands on its Minister that, if all he can do is to refer to two transport system. Designing, maintaining and other bad examples, it goes nowhere towards implementing an efficient transport system that explaining why these powers are needed in addresses both the short and long-term goals these cases. Let us not forget that in the case in the face of increased congestion and a of light rail it will be constructed in some of the growing population poses many often- most densely occupied and highly valued land conflicting factors. in Australia and a very heavy onus of justification lies on anyone either seeking to At face value, building more roads for cars substantially limit compensation rights or to is the obvious solution but one that fails to give broad and intrusive powers of entry and address long-term transport planning needs activity on to private property. and the ever-increasing levels of congestion 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3507 within the CBD and surrounding suburbs. sitting in my seat at the Gabba at 5 minutes Building infrastructure that encourages greater to 5. So it took me 40 minutes from queuing public transport usage is a far more cost- up at the bus station, getting on the bus, effective proposition and one that delivers getting through the gate to sitting in my seat environmentally sensitive results as well. and that was because of the introduction of It is important to note that improved public the new busway station at the Gabba. The transport is a realistic alternative to car travel same thing applied on the way home when, and improving public transport is probably the along with 35,000 other people, I went home. single most important transport issue of the Once I got on the bus, I was home within 20 region. The Government is committed to a minutes. It was excellent. long-range plan of increased public transport Busways, which have been the subject of of which a key component is the introduction numerous speeches in this House, are of a network of busways throughout Brisbane's roadways aimed at increasing the speed, major residential corridors. I have said here reliability and comfort of bus services. The and elsewhere that the busways will dedicated two-lane roadway is for the exclusive revolutionise public transport usage in my use of buses and emergency service vehicles. electorate and the surrounding electorates. In order for public transport to become more We have never had public transport competitive with private vehicles, it needs to infrastructure that ensured people got out of address the needs of the consumer, removing their cars and onto the bus. inconsistencies in timetabling and, as I stated I will use the example of today because I before, improving the speed and frequency of caught the bus to work. As I have been a bus bus services, increasing levels of safety and traveller all— comfort and implementing guaranteed trip times, which have been identified as key Mr Johnson: You should do it every day. components in this strategy. Mr REEVES: I try to. I have been a bus While the State Government is currently traveller all my life. Never in the electorate of involved in the construction of a state-of-the-art Mansfield have we had the advantage of a busway, Ottawa in Canada provides the best reliable transport system like trains, but what example of a successfully operating busway occurred today occurs every day. The bus was system. It is important to note that Ottowa is probably about five minutes late. That was not demographically similar to Brisbane, the fault of the bus driver and it was not the particularly in terms of having a strong CBD fault of the bus system. It was as a result of with more residential and employment growth normal traffic problems such as traffic lights now taking place in the suburbs at a relatively and other transport problems. As a result of low density. Ottawa's busway carries 200,000 that, the bus ended up travelling in peak hour people each day, accounting for an amazing and everything was delayed. It probably took 70% of commuters travelling to the CBD. me about half an hour to travel from Mount Compare that to the current estimates of Gravatt into the city. Brisbane public transport usage to the CBD of Once the busway is finally up and just over 30%. It is also very interesting to note running, the journey will take about 15 that the busiest section of the Ottawa busway minutes. There will be an improved frequency carries 10,000 people during peak hour in one of buses because obviously it takes only direction. That is equivalent to five lanes of another 15 minutes to get back instead of an cars on the freeway. Ottowa's system has also hour. So instead of having two buses an hour seen a 70% reduction in accidents in the city, we can have four buses an hour and that will further emphasising how the segregation of increase bus usage. buses and cars not only improves travel time Mr Bredhauer: Did you catch a bus to the reliability but safety as well. This Canadian Olympics when the soccer was on? example has demonstrated the effectiveness of the public transport system specifically Mr REEVES: I did. I did take the bus to aimed at improving the quality and therefore the Olympics and I must talk about that. I went the attractiveness of public transport. over to the Garden City bus interchange at quarter past 4 and there was a very large The busways in Brisbane will include queue waiting for a bus. I got on the bus. After express routes and fast, frequent all-day using part of the busway network I was sitting services that stop at each station and provide in my seat at the Gabba— passengers with consistent, congestion-free trips even during peak traffic periods. We really Mr Bredhauer interjected. only have to look at the example of Sydney Mr REEVES: No, it was not a hot dog, during the Olympics. During that time, many actually. They were a bit too expensive. I was people used public transport, in particular 3508 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 buses, and those buses travelled in then use the Pacific Motorway to service designated bus lanes. That created a situation suburbs further south. As I said, the first stage where the roads had hardly any cars on them of the busway opened in time for the Olympic because people got out of their cars and onto football events at the Gabba. The construction the buses. Sydney's usual transport difficulties will be completed by mid 2001. were lessened considerably because people Preliminary work has started on the inner- were on the buses instead of in their cars. northern busway to link the CBD with the Royal The busway system will see increased bus Brisbane Hospital. This project will further frequency and guaranteed trip times, removing reduce congestion in the CBD, making it easier traffic congestion from the equation and for buses to travel to and from the city, reducing travel time. The increased reliability of lessening the impacts for both bus users and the system will encourage people to further car drivers alike. Busways represent an make use of the busway system and public opportunity to achieve a highly efficient and transport. The integration of the busway with sustainable use of road space while other public transport systems will see other contributing strongly to the management of air lines feeding into the busway to ensure that quality and vehicle emissions. Busways will the busway benefits all, not just those near the boost the image of public transport, making it busway itself. It is expected that local routes synonymous with reliable, safe and will provide the same seat service while comfortable travel and improving the quality of accessing the busway. life of everybody in the south-east region. I am sure that the people of my electorate as well The introduction of special busway as the people in the surrounding electorates stations will also increase the safety, comfort will show their support by getting on the buses. and accessibility for bus patrons. I take as an As I said, these busways will revolutionise example the bus station at Garden City. It public transport usage. would have to be one of the safest public transport stations that I have ever seen. It is I would like to thank the Minister for his possible to stand at one end and see people support for the busways, and his continued standing at the other end. There is no fear of support, because the people in my people hiding behind walls and the like. The electorate—those who commute to the city for stations will feature audible announcements of work or for other reasons—cannot wait for the arriving buses as well as real-time information busways to be completed. I am sure that they displays, further adding to the convenience of will come into great use next year with the patrons. Security cameras, high-quality Goodwill Games and the events that will be lighting, transparent station design, a regular held out at the ANZ stadium. So I commend police presence and help points connecting the Minister for this Bill. I congratulate all his directly to a central control centre will help to staff who worked very hard, and I wish Cathy a ensure a high level of safety. happy birthday as well. The busways will also provide links to Mr DALGLEISH (Hervey Bay—CCAQ) other existing public transport services such as (12.31 p.m.): My City Country Alliance ferries and rail services. This improved colleagues and I are pleased to see that the integration further emphasises the message Government is planning ahead for the future that public transport works and works well. The traffic growth in the south-east Queensland consequent increased usage of the public region. I support the plans for further busways transport system will also benefit the and light rail projects to reduce the congestion community in other ways in addition to on the roads and to reduce the environmental reduced traffic congestion. impact of traffic. At a time when we are increasingly Although the Bill relates to other urban conscious of environmental concerns, public parts of the State, there is no doubt that the transport takes on far greater importance. One future demand upon the city's access roads is fully loaded bus means that there are 40 fewer the main purpose of the Bill. Future demand cars on the road, with significant reductions in will escalate the current traffic problems on the both air and noise pollution. The construction road. Essentially, the Bill allows for busways of the region's first busway in Brisbane's south- and light rail systems to be developed in order east corridor is currently under way, and I to counteract the expansion and demands of cannot wait for it to be finished. It is called the traffic. south-east busway and will run from the It is also obvious that there is a general Brisbane CBD via South Bank and Mater Hill to move away from rural areas to the city areas. Woolloongabba and then through my The Minister in his second-reading speech electorate on to Eight Mile Plains. Buses will stated that people have realised the benefits 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3509 of inner-city living. I find that to be a sad providing thousands of jobs for overseas reflection upon the failure of successive companies whilst Queensland's economy is Governments to keep rural and regional struggling and our skilled workers are hitting communities alive. It amazes me that the dole queues. Governments, both Labor and coalition— Although I agree with the future planning because in practice they are both the same— for busways and rail networks to relieve the spend so much time trying to reduce the transport problems of the inner city, I do not crowding problems of our overgrown cities agree with this Government's arrogant attitude while contributing to the problem by actively when it comes to disrupting Mr and Mrs destroying rural and regional communities. average Queenslander. The people are sick of Globalisation, deregulation, National Government interference in their lives. Surely Competition Policy, privatisation, red tape and the heavy weight of the public system can be a lack of essential services continue to force moved in such a way that it is respectful and productive people off the land and into the considerate of the bloke who pays for its already overcrowded cities. I do not think that existence. all the inner-city growth is due to people realising the benefits of inner-city living but We support the development of the rather that it was made so damned hard for busways and light rail networks, but we have them to survive in the bush that they had no reservations about the lack of appropriate choice. compensation provisions and concerns about the erosion of the right of freehold title. My concerns about the Bill relate to the However, I use this opportunity to thank the rights of private landowners. Clauses 180ZZZO Minister for the efforts that he has put into to 180ZZZZB deal with the entry onto land to Hervey Bay and the roadworks that have been investigate if it is suitable for the development achieved up there. We cannot always agree of light rail or busways. These clauses erode on everything, but I thank the Minister for what the rights of private landowners. Other aspects he has done in my district. of the Bill also override the rights of freehold landowners, including clause 180C and clause Mr Bredhauer: Happy to oblige you. 180ZN, which also allow persons connected Mr DALGLEISH: The next time the with the project to enter and investigate and Minister is looking at areas in which to put in a test land for light rail or busway purposes. rail system, the Minister should look at Hervey However, I acknowledge that there are some Bay. The people of Hervey Bay would be very safeguards in place in the Bill that state that, pleased to see the train return to Hervey Bay. for that to occur, the occupier of the land must Maybe we could connect it with the first be advised in writing of this intention or Torbanlea/Howard district so that those people that there must be an attempt to contact the out there can have some form of public landowners before that investigation occurs. transport, which they are seriously lacking. When discussing that issue in the Alert Digest, Mr ROBERTS (Nudgee—ALP) the Scrutiny of Legislation Committee referred (12.37 p.m.): I want to comment on a couple to a lack of merit review provisions in the Bill. of issues relating to this Bill, the integrated That committee is also concerned about the ticketing project and a few of the key rights of landowners and the lack of appeal requirements that are necessary for provisions in the Bill. implementing an efficient and effective The Beattie Labor Government does not integrated public transport system. care about overturning the rights of freehold The aim of the integrated ticketing project titleholders. That was shown clearly in the is to benefit public transport users. It is going South Bank incident. After the Supreme Court to do that by using smart card technology, ruled in favour of the landowners, the Beattie which can be used in place of conventional Labor Government simply changed the rules tickets. They have the advantage in that they by forcing legislation through Parliament—with can be used for a variety of trips on different the active assistance of their partners in theft, modes of public transport. Apart from making the good old coalition—so that they could the journey simpler, the smart cards will also acquire land compulsorily. Those parties also benefit public transport users in other ways. passed a Bill to allow the State's land They will give them more choice in the way in acquisition powers to be used for the benefit of which they pay for their trips. It is also third parties. That was supposed to contribute envisaged that the holders of these cards will to jobs and industry for Queensland. Yet we be able to put extra value on their cards by a hear that the Comalco plant in Gladstone is to variety of different ways at their own be built with imported equipment and labour convenience, for example, at ticket offices, with the blessing of this Government, thus special machines through retail agents and 3510 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 also a facility for enabling direct debit from merely coordinating services or providing a nominated bank accounts. It is also suggested ticketing solution. It represents the seamless that smart card holders might further benefit combination of all aspects of different transport from the capability of these cards to be used modes to deliver a complete door-to-door for the purchase of other services beyond just transport option that is attractive to public transport services. passengers. Queensland Transport has been working There is some research indicating that closely with Queensland Rail and Brisbane there are certain aspects that must be Transport to explore opportunities for the addressed in order to provide a successful better integration of rail and bus services. integrated service. Some of those include There is a realisation that a high-quality having a competitive total trip time, integrated public transport system will attract overcoming passenger reluctance to change more users to public transport in south-east modes within a journey, confidence by Queensland, which will bring significant commuters that the connections between the benefits to the community as a whole—not just modes will happen, convenience and comfort reducing private vehicle use but also having throughout the journey and in particular when direct impacts on pollution, the number of changing modes of transport, particularly in accidents and, of course, noise impacts in bad weather conditions, confidence in the particular areas. punctuality and reliability of the performance of The exciting CityTrans project was the services and the service operators, and a launched recently at a number of locations passenger perception of value for money. That throughout Brisbane—Darra, Carseldine and does not always mean that a good integrated Ferny Grove. A couple of months ago I had transport system will be the cheapest option the pleasure of launching the Carseldine available. CityTrans project with Councillor Maureen In order to address those aspects for Hayes. Further developments will see Brisbane—and I congratulate the Minister and improved integration between services at his departmental officers on the work that has interchanges and the optimisation of express been done through projects such as CityTrans, services on that network. Some amendments under the leadership of Chris Warnock, who is will be proposed at the Committee stage. They doing a good job in coordinating that are important because they will enable projects project—a great deal of effort needs to be put such as CityTrans to proceed unhindered. into planning those services, and this should Under the Commonwealth Trade Practices Act involve all relevant operators and participants they would normally be seen as market in the system. We also need to ensure that we competitors. The amendments will allow those have appropriate facilities at the points of organisations to lawfully negotiate the interchange. There is no point in people being agreements between them that are necessary dropped off from a bus at a car park in bad for the efficient and effective delivery of an weather conditions and their having to walk 10 integrated transport system. The legislation is to 15 minutes to get to a train station. There important because, with these service needs to be a seamless changeover point operators being viewed as competitors in a from bus to rail or bus to ferry—at whatever market, under the competition legislation they parts of the integrated service. And there would not be allowed to make and act upon needs to be convenient access to the tickets these arrangements unless these activities are that will be used as part of the integrated authorised by legislation. That is the scheme transport system. I know that all of those that is required under the National Competition issues are being addressed. Again, the Policy. CityTrans project is an excellent initiative that will show the way for how integrated transport I wish to make a few comments about systems should be put in place in south-east some of the key components required for Queensland. With those few words, I putting in place a proper integrated transport commend the Bill to the House. system. One of the great mistakes that many people make is that they focus on one aspect. Mr NELSON (Tablelands—IND) In particular, there has been a lot of focus by (12.43 p.m.): Although I do not live in Brisbane some individuals on integrated ticketing as City and I represent an area that is a long way being the answer to the integrated transport from it, I wish to take a moment to speak on needs of our community. Integrated ticketing is this Bill, because I am a huge supporter of just one aspect of many that needs to be put public transport, even though in my electorate in place in order for the system to operate public transport consists of one Hiace bus that effectively. Integration is about more than goes to Cairns twice a day. 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3511

Melbourne has one of the best public busways and, if not, why not? That question transport systems in Australia. It owes most of has been put to me on numerous occasions. its public transport success to its amazing tram Having said that, I wish to speak also system. Any honourable member who has about the rail link from the airport to the city. In been to Melbourne would know that after my opinion, this is an excellent idea, because getting a tram from the city one can then travel it links the airport with our major public by bus or rail anywhere within Melbourne or transport infrastructure, the Brisbane Cityrail Victoria, basically. Public transport has helped network. I am not aware of what is proposed, Melbourne to maintain its pre-eminent position but thought will have to be given to as the cultural capital of this country and the timetabling—and this is a point that has been shopping centre of the nation. A lot of my raised with me by people in Brisbane who look family members live in Melbourne and I have into these sorts of things—to make sure that stayed there at times. It owes its reputation flight and train schedules correspond. I am told entirely to its public transport network. One can that in Sydney, for example, flight and train hop on a tram anywhere in the city— scheduling does not match and there are Mr Bredhauer: What's wrong with massive queues. shopping in Brisbane? Mr Bredhauer: There will be trains every Mr NELSON: The Minister has drawn me 15 minutes. to my point. As a member of Parliament, I Mr NELSON: As I said, I am not 100% travel to Brisbane regularly. When I am here aware of what is going on. I am just relating the only way I can get around is either by the concerns that have been raised with me. hiring a car, walking or using public transport. Public transport works. As the member for As I said, I am a country person and I am not Mansfield quite rightly raised, public transport used to travelling on public transport. When I works when people are guaranteed that they first saw the plans for a light rail or tram system can step up, hop on a train and get where up and down George Street and through the they need to go. Scheduling is very important, CBD, I thought it would be fantastic, because it especially for people who work or have work would save my walking to the shops that I like commitments in the city and live in the outer going to at the end of George Street. I believe suburbs. They need a guaranteed form of a light rail project in the city would be fantastic. transport so that they are not late for work or At the moment I use the ferry service to travel appointments and so that they can travel from to and from South Bank. It would be great to point to point. That is the most important thing link light rail with services to the suburbs. of all. If trams run—and, as I said, the trams in I am very confused about what is going Melbourne are a perfect example of this—on a on with the whole system, even though I have continuous loop so that, as the Minister just read the second-reading speech and the Bill. said, there is basically a tram, bus or train A lot of people in the Brisbane City area have every 15 minutes, people can schedule their asked me what is going on. I am sure that all timetable around that, and that is a good is as it should be and that the Minister will thing. enlighten us in due course. Having said that, I would like to put my The other question that I wish to ask and support behind this project. Having said that as which has been raised with me by people in well, I would now like to see it happen and I Brisbane City is why the busways cannot be am sure that a lot of other people out there used by taxis. I might stand to be corrected; I would as well. When these things become big am not sure whether taxis can use them. I use issues in the media or when people start taxis a lot when I am in Brisbane. I believe talking about them, people then start making they are just as important to our public plans around them. They might say, "If we are transport system as are buses. In some cases, going to have a light rail network in the near bus or rail timetables do not meet our needs future, I will be able to use it to do this and and we need to be able to jump into a taxi and that." Businesspeople start looking into it as get to where we are going very quickly. In well. I for one am interested to know how long some cities in the world taxis are about the we will have to wait for this to happen. How only form of vehicle transport allowed into long will it be before people in Brisbane City CBDs. For example, I think in New York City are catching trams again? What sort of time the CBD has been closed to private transport, frame is envisaged now, given all the things with only taxis and buses being permitted. One that have happened in the past? What sort of question I would like to put to the Minister is: time frame is envisaged now and into the has any thought been given to taxis using the future as to when we can start using these 3512 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 facilities? I hope that the Minister will be able them—and quickly ascertain their problem. to answer those questions. There is a range of ways in which these smart Mr BEANLAND (Indooroopilly—LP) cards will, I am sure, be used in the future. (12.50 p.m.): I rise in relation to this very Interchanges is another issue that has important Bill before the Parliament because it been talked about. We already have relates to Brisbane's public transport system interchanges in some locations to some and Brisbane's needs. Brisbane certainly does degree in this city. Not only do we have to look need a modern public transport system. A at the mode of transport, but we also have to great deal has been done, but a great deal still look at the ease of access, which is very awaits to be done. Unfortunately, this important, as well as the comfort, cleanliness legislation does not achieve those ends. It is and timeliness of those services. No matter unfair to Queenslanders in some areas and how an interchange is organised, without unjust to Queenslanders in others. It will encompassing those aspects it simply will not certainly lead to their substantial economic and work and the travelling public will not be social loss. As previous speakers have encouraged to transfer from one particular indicated, it certainly has broad and obtrusive mode of transport to the other. Once people powers. board a bus, train or ferry, they do not like to I notice that a number of things in the move to an alternative form of transport unless Minister's second-reading speech seem to it can be done comfortably and with ease and have passed us by. I am talking there about it is readily accessible and timely. the light rail system and other such things. From recollection, I think the current I want to touch briefly on a couple of local Government has scrapped those particular issues. One of those involves the rail stations plans. No doubt work will have to be done on in my electorate. I will raise them again with further plans to improve the current public the Minister, as I have raised them in the past. transport system. The key modal interchange Some of those stations need to be upgraded. with busways, ferries and the rail system is not Sherwood is the first to which I will refer. something new. It has been talked about for Sherwood Railway Station is being used quite a considerable time. increasingly by older people in the community. I have noticed that there seem to be quite a The proposed new smart card or value number of young mums with prams also card system, which is coming to the fore more struggling to use that station. I say "struggling" and more, is something that has probably not because there is no ramp there and access is taken off in this country as much as one would not easy at all. In fact, it is very difficult. We have expected a number of years ago. I am see those mums and the older folks struggling sure that the cards will continue to replace up the steps. There are a number of steps that cash. One of the reasons it has not taken off they have to struggle up with a great deal of so much is the role that the credit card has in difficulty. society and the associated programs, whether they be Fly Buys or something else, that Not only is there no wheelchair access or provide an incentive to use a credit card. So ease of access, there is also a problem with people tend to use those more rather than put the pedestrian crossing across the rail line. It is money on a smart card. I am sure that we are one of the few crossings in the city that does going to find that the smart card is going to not have an automated pedestrian crossing come to the fore in smaller transactions. system. I have asked about this in the past Not only do these value cards store and it seems to have been ignored, but it is an monetary value, but they can be used to store important issue. Some attention does need to a whole range of other things. A person's be paid to it. It is another issue that is raised medical life history can be stored upon one of from time to time. It services not only the these cards in a minute form. I am sure that shopping centre and a commercial centre we are going to see that, in time to come, close by but also places such as the Sherwood people who suffer medical ailments and who Senior Citizens, the Sherwood Neighbourhood need treatment will store their history relating Centre, the Sherwood Respite Service and a to that ailment on one of these cards. For number of churches in the area. Those centres example, people with diabetes can store on all offer a range of services. There is also the those cards the history of their diabetes. If they Sherwood State School only a short distance get into trouble somewhere when they are out up Sherwood Road. A number of children use and about and there is no-one at hand to the rail station to get to and from school. There assist them, they will be able to put that card are also girl guides in the area who also use into a machine—or someone can do it for the station. 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3513

It is a well used station and it is not a The other station I wish to talk about is station that needs a long ramp. Because of Indooroopilly station. I understand that it is one the height of the station above the road of the largest in Brisbane. Not only do we have system, it would only need a short ramp, unlike access problems there, but there are also a neighbouring station which has a long ramp. problems with the Park & Ride and the bus/rail People would get tired from simply making interchange. I thank the Minister and the their way from one side of the ramp to the Government for taking this matter up again, other. which we were taking up when in office. Mr Bredhauer interjected. However, we need to continue to push ahead with it. I know that it is out for consultancy at Mr BEANLAND: I am very happy to take the moment and the consultants are doing the Minister's interjection. work on that. I appreciate that we have to go through those processes. Once that process is Mr Bredhauer: It's a bit more expensive, finished and general agreement is reached, I which is why it takes a bit longer. hope we are able to get on with that. It is a Mr BEANLAND: I accept the Minister's major station and there are problems with the interjection about installing lifts rather than Park & Ride. This is one of the biggest stations ramps. I was going to touch upon that, as I in the city. Apart from the Park & Ride, there is have some knowledge of those. If the Minister also the need for a bus/rail interchange at that prefers to put in lifts, I am very agreeable to location. that. However, there needs to be a much more Sitting suspended from 12.59 p.m. to urgent process than we have at the moment. I 2.30 p.m. understand that a system exists currently, but it is a bit in the never-never in the long term. I hear something about 20 years, or whatever it PRIVILEGE might be. It is certainly more than five or six Mr Speaker's Ruling years, anyway. Mr SPEAKER: Order! Further to the Some of those stations do not need a matter of privilege raised by the member for large amount of cash spent on upgrading Crows Nest this morning, I have reviewed the them. Sherwood is not one that would involve Hansard records. It is now clear to me that millions upon millions of dollars. However, a during yesterday's question time when station such as Chelmer, which is also in my invoking Standing Order 123A I inadvertently electorate, would certainly be very costly to referred to subsection (3). This was an error. upgrade—and I have not raised that with the My intent and my personal record was that Minister. I appreciate that that is a station that subsection (2) had been invoked. I apologise would be quite expensive because of the to the member for Crows Nest for any topography of the area. embarrassment or inconvenience caused. The Graceville station is also very much like Sherwood in that it would not be very cost TRANSPORT (BUSWAY AND LIGHT RAIL) intensive to upgrade, whether a lift or a ramp AMENDMENT BILL were installed. I accept that lifts can be used, Second Reading provided that they are guaranteed not to break down. Durability is a problem with lifts. I know Resumed. about lifts because in my former role we put in Hon. S. D. BREDHAUER (Cook—ALP) lifts. The problem is that, unless durability is (Minister for Transport and Minister for Main guaranteed—and they are tough lifts—they will Roads) (2.31 p.m.), in reply: I thank all break down. We cannot use cheap lifts. The honourable members for their contributions to Minister has to put some money into them and the debate on the Transport (Busway and they have to be regularly maintained. There is Light Rail) Amendment Bill. Obviously, I want not much point if the lift is installed and an to take up a couple of issues that members elderly person or a mum with a pram comes have raised. along and finds that the lift is not working. I will deal first of all with the contribution by Then we would be back to square one. It is no the shadow Minister, the member for Gregory. use telling them, "We are waiting for the I will deal with the compensation issue first, technician to come to fix the lift." We might get because that seems to be causing some away with that when the lifts here at anxiety. The first thing I should say with Parliament House break down, but it certainly respect to the compensation issue is that will not work at the rail stations. Those lifts when we came to Government the Briztram Bill have to work 24 hours a day. which had been introduced into this Parliament 3514 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 would have given effect to the previous to compensate every person who had suffered coalition Government's ideas for the a loss of trade as a result of constructing the introduction of Briztram. That Bill was silent on Pacific Motorway. That would have doubled the issue of compensation. All the the cost of the Pacific Motorway. It would be compensation provisions which the member the same if we had to compensate everybody for Gregory anticipated as Minister when for loss of trade or business associated with introducing the Briztram Bill were covered by the South East Transit Project. Part of the other Acts such as the Transport Infrastructure reason why these principles have been applied Act or the Land Acquisition Act. They contain and supported by those opposite is that most the current provisions which are the of them go back to their time in Government precedents I referred to when the member for prior to the late 1980s. In relation to this issue, Clayfield was on his feet. in most cases there is a benefit to these When the current shadow Minister people after construction. introduced the Bill when the coalition was in Mr Johnson: They need it to survive. Government, he thought those compensation provisions were adequate for his proposal to Mr BREDHAUER: I understand that is an introduce a light rail network in the Brisbane issue, but the reality is that, when the member area. When this Government went through the opposite was the Minister and under the light rail process, we had representations from principles of compensation which applied a range of people, including the Property under the coalition Government in both its last Council, UDIA and others who were concerned term and in previous terms prior to the late about those compensation issues. The 1980s, these principles were well established. compensation provisions contained in this Bill The passage of this Bill will not establish a new are actually of a higher order, if I can describe precedent, which is what the member for them as that, than previously existed for Clayfield asserted. The only precedent that this compensation arrangements under any Bill sets is that, because of the light rail legislation in this State in the past. Importantly, initiative, compensation will be provided for they are of a higher order than was anticipated loss of access if people had loss of access as by the member for Gregory when he was the a result of the light rail going past their Minister for Transport. business. Notwithstanding that, I acknowledge that These are higher order compensation when we briefed the member for Gregory and provisions than have ever existed in the past. a number of other coalition members on People who have said that we are taking away compensation issues he raised a couple of people's rights misunderstand the principles of concerns with us which we have sought to take compensation which have applied to into account in the amendments that I bring acquisition and property impacts by before the Parliament today. One example is infrastructure projects in the past. It is not in that, under the previous provisions, it was not fact true to say that we are taking away possible for someone to claim compensation people's rights. However, we are making it very until construction had finished. When a clear what people's rights are and under what person's property was occupied during terms and conditions they can claim construction, they could not claim compensation. compensation until after construction had Mr Johnson: What state of agreement finished. We will amend the legislation so that did you reach with the Property Council of people can claim compensation during the Queensland at the consultation phase? Did construction process. We have effectively you reach total agreement, or does it still have taken this issue further than the coalition reservations? What was the final outcome? Government would have if the Briztram Bill had been passed in 1998. I do acknowledge the Mr BREDHAUER: I do not think I could concerns that the member has raised, but the ever please the Property Council and Ross issues raised by some people, including the Elliott, to be quite honest. And to be quite Property Council, and by some members of blunt, neither would I seek to try to please the coalition— Ross Elliott all the time. I have found him to be a difficult person to deal with at times. Mr Johnson: Including amenity? Notwithstanding that, however, the reality is Mr BREDHAUER: If we were to that we talked to the Property Council on a contemplate compensating people for loss of number of occasions with individual amenity and loss of trade during the constituents, I guess, of the Property Council, construction of projects, there would be no that is, businesses which would be directly projects. I ask members to imagine if we had affected by the light rail project. 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3515

I will give an example. A breakfast was The Property Council brought to our held three or four months ago which was attention concerns about disruption to traffic attended by my director-general, Bruce Wilson. during the construction phase. The issue During that breakfast—it was hosted by the about light rail causing congestion is an Property Council; there were about 200-odd important one for people to understand. Yes, people in attendance—Ross Elliott got up and light rail takes up road space. There is no criticised the State Government and the light question about that. The whole reason for rail project in particular. Bruce Wilson defended wanting to proceed with light rail now was that the light rail project and the Government's the Brisbane City Council's construction of the position at that time. I might say that he got a City/Valley bypass will take congestion off city very strong round of applause from the 200- streets. We sought to use that opportunity to odd people at the breakfast. I would not claim take up the road space for the light rail public that we have sorted out all of the Property transport initiative. Then we would get people Council's problems. By the same token, having out of their cars and onto the public transport taken the decision to terminate the Brisbane modes. light rail project when we did, we have not had There will always be congestion on the further consultations on those specifics with roads. I could build 10 new freeways around the Property Council since that time. south-east Queensland but all that would do is The member for Gregory also talked encourage every bugger to get in their cars about the concerns raised by the Brisbane City and drive into town. Before too long we would Council. The member in fact alluded to a again have congestion. So the idea was to suggestion that the Lord Mayor had scuttled take up some of the road space made the project. That is not true. I know that Jim available by eased traffic congestion as a Soorley has some problems with it. We are result of the City/Valley bypass and put the working through them. I addressed a Civic public transport in place so that people had an Cabinet meeting in respect of this issue. The alternative to using their cars. last information we had from the Lord Mayor and the Civic Cabinet after that was that they So, yes, there would have been would support the light rail project, and they congestion issues during the construction outlined some conditions. My department and phase. We have had that during the South I are confident that we can meet those East Transit Project. We have had it from time conditions. Yes, the Lord Mayor was driving a to time on the Pacific Motorway. It is an hard bargain, if you like. He wanted certain unavoidable impact of construction. We are conditions. We believed that we could meet going to have congestion. That is the reality. those conditions. That is not the reason we did The population in south-east Queensland is not proceed with the project, because we going to double in the next 12 years and believed we could meet those conditions. congestion will continue to grow. This is about trying to moderate the rate of growth of Mr Johnson: Why did you really not congestion with public transport initiatives. proceed with it? Is there a reason? A suggestion was made that people's Mr BREDHAUER: Yes, and this has been property values would go down as a result of publicly stated often. The main reason is that being adjacent to public transport. That does each of the consortia, when they came back not happen anywhere in the world. The last with their bids, was looking for a State time I was in Hong Kong, a couple of years Government contribution of the order of $80m ago, they were building a new cross-harbour or more in excess of what we had budgeted. tunnel from the mainland to the island, which So the cost of the project to the State they were funding out of the property rights of Government was going to be of the order of at two 90-floor towers at the stations at either end least $80m more than we had budgeted for. of the tunnel. Property values are actually We sat around the Cabinet table, as the more likely to appreciate in the long term—this member opposite would have done on many is the issue I mentioned before—because of occasions, and anticipated that it would cost proximity to efficient and effective public us X number of dollars. We would get so much transport. If public transport is delivering from the private sector, so much from the numbers of people to or past your property, Brisbane City Council and $65m from the then the likelihood is that your property values Federal Government through the Centenary of will increase rather than go the other way. Federation Fund. Then I had to go back to Cabinet and say, "If we are going to do this, it They are the issues in relation to is going to cost us another $80m." Cabinet compensation. No, I would not claim that we decided on that basis that we would not had satisfied the Property Council totally. We proceed. had gone some way to allaying its concerns, 3516 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 but we have not consulted with it directly on The reason we do not have a formal those issues since we decided not to proceed merit-based review process is basically time. If with the project. Nevertheless, my view is that we were to have to go off to some court to the provisions that are here are reasonable. I have an appeal heard, it would have to be think the suggestions made by the member for listed, we would have to go through some kind Gregory, which we have picked up in the of hearing process and we would have to wait amendments, improve what we had for a decision. And this is all actually during the previously. That is why we were happy to pick construction phase of a particular project. up those suggestions. They will appear in the Things could be delayed for months and Government's amendments. months. We have a system of notification and other protections and then the judicial review The member for Gregory referred to my process applies. So if a person does not agree second-reading speech. He said that I spoke with the decision they can seek a judicial about some provisions I was applying to light review and they can go through the judicial rail but which did not seem to be applying to review process. There are other safeguards busways. There are a couple of issues which built into the legislation. It is important that do apply to light rail and which do not apply to people do not read this Bill in isolation and as busways—accreditation, for example. in some way precedent setting because in Becoming an accredited operator is an issue most cases it is not. It is picking up legislative for light rail because we were believing that principles that exist in the Transport another party was going to operate the light Infrastructure Act, the Land Acquisition Act rail, but accreditation is not necessary for the and others and restating them here. busway because we are operating the busway. The member for Gregory mentioned the So there are actually some provisions in costs of the SET project. Yes, the SET project respect of light rail that are peculiar to light rail, has come in at a higher cost than was but most of the things the member talked originally budgeted. The Pacific Motorway has about—investigation, tenure, incident come in at a higher cost than was originally management and so on—do actually apply to budgeted. I cannot tell the member what the both in the legislation. I referred to them in my final figures will be. In the case of the Pacific second-reading speech in their light rail context Motorway we are still in negotiations with only, but the legislation actually covers those contractors over claims. In the case of the SET issues for both light rail and busways. It is in project, we are still building it. I think the the legislation; I just did not cover it in detail in member should be careful about criticising us my second-reading speech. for additional costs when in fact the most Another issue related to whether there significant additional cost on the SET project should be an appeal or review process when was caused by the realignment through South temporary access is granted to a property. I Bank. I am not going to go through that issue was not clear, but I understand that the issue again—I am not trying to bait the the member referred to relates to the chief member—but that has been the most significant cause for cost increase on the SET executive officer having the power to grant project. temporary access during construction and there being no appeal of that decision. Once The member for Gregory did mention the again, this is not new to this legislation. That is number of amendments and the amendments the current established policy which applies to being made to other bits of legislation. I do all transport infrastructure. It is the principle in appreciate the points he made in relation to the Transport Infrastructure Act, and we are that. I guess I would have to describe it as a now applying it to the busway and light rail Bill. less than perfect situation. I will briefly canvass the issues. In respect of the land acquisitions Once again, it is not a new provision. For for the SET project, the member made the example, under the current provision the chief comment that this was the second time we executive has to give three days' notice. In this had legal advice that had changed. That is not Bill the chief executive has to give seven days' strictly correct. We acquired the property of notice if they want to come on to a property. Noble and Elenis at South Bank but, as the This does not relate to emergency situations— member for Hervey Bay mentioned, that there are other provisions which apply in matter was overturned by the Supreme Court. emergency situations—but, once again, some The Government's advice did not change; of the things we are stipulating in this Bill are rather, the Supreme Court made a decision actually improving on or increasing the degree that we had to follow. of responsibility that the chief executive has to In relation to the other one, there was discharge in order to comply. Crown Law advice—which the member for 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3517

Gregory acted upon when he was for Gregory knows, the dredge operates up Minister—which said that the Director-General and down the coast of Queensland. It is a of the Department of Main Roads was the fairly simple, technical amendment. It is appropriate agent to act in the acquisition of something that was omitted. I thought it was the land. The Government subsequently better to try to roll it here to give people that received advice which said that that was not measure of comfort. the case. Because it was not a road—it is Another issue to which I wish to refer actually a busway, which is probably a moot concerns CityTrans. When we first kicked off point in some people's minds—it should have the CityTrans initiative it was suggested to us been acquired by the Director-General of that there were possible trade practices issues Transport. We received fresh advice from and that we could deal with those issues either Crown Law on that occasion. We had to by regulation or by legislation. We put through respond to it. The busway is substantially built. a regulation at the time and that has enabled I figured that it was important that that legal us to proceed to this stage. Subsequently, we matter was corrected as quickly as possible. It sent an inquiry to Trade Practices. We were does not affect anyone's rights or entitlements. told that it was probably better to have In most cases, all the acquisitions have legislation. That is why I am putting it in here. occurred and the compensation has been We are actually kicking off the CityTrans settled. I guess there are a few cases that are project in the next couple of weeks. We have a still going through the courts. regulation which covers it but, given that it has Mr Johnson: Just while you are talking been recommended to us that it would about the busway, I noticed that there is probably be better to have legislation, we put it disfigurement already by louts with graffiti. Are in here. I take the member for Gregory's point. practices in place to control that activity? It is probably not the best way to do it but, Mr BREDHAUER: I am not familiar with under the circumstances, this seemed like a the area that the member is talking about. I useful vehicle to make sure that we signed all think we will find that once the busways are those things off. operational people will be discouraged from Three members on the other side of the standing around on the busways. Chamber referred to the Alert Digest and to Mr Johnson: You know what I'm saying; it the concerns that were raised by the Scrutiny looks damned awful. of Legislation Committee in respect of certain Mr BREDHAUER: Yes. We have gone to provisions in this Bill. All the members who a lot of trouble to try to use graffiti-resistant read the Alert Digest picked up those issues. surfaces. In the long term we will put security However, one has to read the subsequent measures in place to try to monitor these issues because the Scrutiny of Legislation things. I think the best form of security will be Committee writes to me as Minister and says, when the buses are whizzing up and down "These are our concerns." I write back to the there every couple of minutes. Anyone who committee and my response is recorded in wants to stand there with a spray can runs the subsequent editions of the Alert Digest. In risk of being skittled. each case we were able to satisfy the concerns of the committee on the issues that Graffiti is a problem. We have put a lot of had been raised. It is just part of the process effort into that matter. We will obviously of dialogue, I guess, between a Minister's remove graffiti where it becomes an issue. We office and the Scrutiny of Legislation have put a lot of thought into new Committee in an effort to resolve these technologies, such as using surfaces that are matters. I realise that these matters are not graffiti resistant or that are easier to clean. always resolved, but in this case the issues There is also video surveillance. I am sure that were resolved. will also act as a deterrent. The member for Tablelands raised the I come to the issue in respect of the ports. issue of the Government's decision not to When the old Harbours Act was repealed, a have taxis on busways. Essentially, the reason provision which allowed ports to conduct is that it is a busway. Taxis will benefit from commercial activities outside of their port improved access to the city from the south in boundaries was inadvertently removed and not the transit lanes when they are constructed. In put in the new Act. This has been picked up terms of the most efficient operation of the only since this Bill was put on the table. For buses, we took a policy decision that we would example, the port of Brisbane, which operates not allow taxis on the busways. the Hiley dredge, technically has no legislative capability to have the dredge operate in any May I say to the member for Gregory that port save the port of Brisbane. As the member I appreciate the kind remarks he made about 3518 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

Bob Higgins, in particular, as well as Don Committee Steele and others, when he spoke about the Hon. S. D. BREDHAUER (Cook—ALP) Pacific Motorway project and the South East (Minister for Transport and Minister for Main Transit Project. I know that my departmental Roads) in charge of the Bill. officers appreciate the genuine way in which the member for Gregory means his remarks Clause 1, as read, agreed to. when he makes them. Clause 2— My director-general is obviously a person Mr BREDHAUER (3.05 p.m.): I move the who has played a very important role in this following amendment— matter. John Gralton, who has now retired as Deputy Director-General of Transport, had a lot "At page 10, line 7, after 'Act'— to do with the light rail project. I would also like insert— to mention Les Ford, who is my Executive ', other than section 33,'." Director (Major Projects) and all the people who worked on the light rail team. The This amendment alters the member for Gregory would appreciate the commencement provision of the Bill to ensure amount of time, effort and resources that that the validation aspects of the those people sank into the light rail project. amendments—that is those aspects that validate the land title in respect of the south- Politically we make decisions from time to east busway—commence on the Governor's time about whether projects go or not but, Assent so that there can be no legal challenge notwithstanding that, an awful lot of effort was mounted on the question whether the chief put in by people in the Department of executive in the portfolio should have Transport on the light rail proposal. I have told conducted the land acquisition process for the them this personally, but I would like to put it busway. So, essentially, it is organising the on the record of the Parliament that I commencement of those provisions which are appreciate the effort they put into the project. about the validation of land. It is not wasted. A body of knowledge and experience is gained through that process and Amendment agreed to. that will stand us in good stead for the future. Clause 2, as amended, agreed to. I would also like to thank all of those Clause 3 to 11, as read, agreed to. people in my department who have been Insertion of new clause— involved with this Bill. It has been on the table for five months. We have been anxiously Mr BREDHAUER (3.06 p.m.): I move the awaiting an opportunity to get up and debate it following amendment— and have the Bill hopefully passed by the "At page 13, after line 20— Parliament. To those people I also add my insert— thanks. With those few words, I commend the Bill to the House. 'Insertion of new s 161A Question—That the Bill be now read a '11A. After section 161— second time—put; and the Committee insert— divided— 'Port services function AYES, 40—Attwood, Barton, Beattie, Bligh, Boyle, Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, J. Cunningham, '161A.(1) A port authority has, in addition Edmond, Elder, Fenlon, Foley, Fouras, Hamill, to its functions under section 161, the Hayward, Kaiser, Lavarch, Mackenroth, McGrady, function of providing port services and Mickel, Mulherin, Musgrove, Nelson-Carr, ancillary services— Palaszczuk, Pearce, Pitt, Reeves, Reynolds, Roberts, Robertson, Rose, Schwarten, Spence, Struthers, (a) whether in or outside its port; and Welford, Wells, Wilson. Tellers: Sullivan, Purcell (b) whether in or outside Australia; and NOES, 40—Beanland, Black, Borbidge, Connor, (c) whether for another port authority or Cooper, E. Cunningham, Dalgleish, Davidson, Elliott, for someone else. Feldman, Gamin, Grice, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, Johnson, Kingston, Knuth, Laming, Lester, Lingard, '(2) A port authority that is a GOC is taken Littleproud, Mitchell, Nelson, Paff, Pratt, Prenzler, to have had the function mentioned in Rowell, Santoro, Seeney, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, subsection (1) from when it became a Springborg, Turner, Veivers, Watson, Wellington. GOC. Tellers: Stephan, Hegarty. '(3) In this section— The numbers being equal, the Chairman cast his vote with the Ayes. "ancillary services" means services ancillary to the provision of port services, Resolved in the affirmative. including services appropriate for 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3519

complementing or enhancing the before the establishment of the busway provision of port services. transport infrastructure is completed if the "port" includes airport. claim relates to the person's occupation of land during the establishment of the "port services" means any of the infrastructure.'. following— At page 58, line 24, after '(the (a) services relating to the "infrastructure")'— establishment, operation or administration of ports; insert— (b) dredging services; 'is happening or when it'. (c) services relating to the reclamation of At page 59, lines 15 to 18— land; omit, insert— (d) pilotage services; ' '(3) The amount of compensation is an (e) consultancy services about any of amount fairly representing, in the the services mentioned in particular circumstances— paragraphs (a) to (d).'.'." (a) if the person is in occupation of the This amendment inserts into the relevant land at any time during the Transport Infrastructure Act a new section establishment of the infrastructure— 161A which ensures that port authorise are the reasonable cost to the person of able to provide services outside of their port the enjoyment interference during limits. Essentially, this is the amendment that the establishment; and tidies up that port authorities issue. (b) if the person is in occupation of the Amendment agreed to. relevant land when the establishment Clause 12— of the infrastructure is completed— the reasonable cost to the person of Mr BREDHAUER (3.07 p.m.): I move the the enjoyment interference, starting following amendments— from when the establishment of the "At page 33, line 13, after '(the infrastructure is completed.'. "infrastructure")'— At page 60, after line 21— insert— insert— 'is happening or when it'. ' '(5) Nothing in subsection (2)(a) stops a At page 34, lines 5 to 8— person from applying for compensation omit, insert— before the establishment of the light rail transport infrastructure is completed if the ' '(3) The amount of compensation is an claim relates to the person's occupation of amount fairly representing, in the land during the establishment of the particular circumstances— infrastructure.'." (a) if the person is in occupation of the relevant land at any time during the These amendments are the provisions establishment of the that relate to the modification of the infrastructure—the reasonable cost to compensation scheme in the Bill and that the person of the enjoyment have basically been made to allow people to interference during the be able to claim compensation during the establishment; and construction process rather than having to wait until afterwards. These amendments are being (b) if the person is in occupation of the put in place after the suggestions made by the relevant land when the establishment member for Gregory and a number of other of the infrastructure is members of the coalition during the briefing. completed—the reasonable cost to the person of the enjoyment Mr JOHNSON: I thank the Minister for interference, starting from when the recognising that this part of the legislation establishment of the infrastructure is does need amending. I want to draw his completed.'. attention to proposed new section 180ZZU, on page 59 of the Bill, which states— At page 35, after line 11— "In calculating the compensation, no insert— regard is to be had to the reduction in the ' '(5) Nothing in subsection (2)(a) stops a market value of an interest the person person from applying for compensation may have in the relevant land." 3520 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

I note that the amendment omits lines 15 'Numbering and renumbering of Act to 18 and inserts the new wording there. I refer '200A. In the next reprint of this Act to part (b) of the amendment and in particular produced under the Reprints Act 1992, to the last part of that sentence starting "... the provisions of this Act must be when the establishment of the infrastructure is numbered and renumbered as permitted completed". It seems to me that that could be by the Reprints Act 1992, section 43.'.'." a little bit contradictory in relation to part 4. The part of the clause that remains states— Amendment No. 9 authorises the renumbering of the Transport Infrastructure Act "In calculating the compensation, no 1994. This is required to be authorised by regard is to be had to the reduction in the Parliament under the Government's current market value of an interest the person administrative arrangements. By not may have in the relevant land." renumbering the Transport Infrastructure Act What I am saying here is that it seems to 1994, section 180XXXXB will be retained. me that it is a case of bad luck about the Clearly, that is undesirable in terms of the devaluation; there is no comeback. It is not readability of the legislation. clear whether Crown Law is going to give Amendment agreed to. different advice or whether outside legal expertise is going to be giving a different Clause 14, as amended, agreed to. account again. I say to the Minister that this Mr BREDHAUER (3.12 p.m.): I move the seems a little bit uncertain to me. Can the following amendment— Minister understand what I am saying? He has a change to the clause but that part 4 seems "At page 80, before line 16— to me to be not quite covered. insert— Mr BREDHAUER: I think I understand 'Amendment of s 215 (Boundary what the member is saying. The reason why identification etc.) we amended section 3 is that section 3 says '14A. Section 215(1)(b)(i), 'and'— that the compensation is not of an amount fairly representing in the particular omit, insert— circumstances the likely cost to the person 'or'.'." starting from when the infrastructure is This is a minor amendment to section 215 completed. That was the issue. So the only of the Transport Infrastructure Act. This section principle that we have changed there is to say concerns the categorisation of old QR land into that, instead of having to wait until existing rail corridor land—operating rail track infrastructure is completed, people can in fact and land containing rail transport seek compensation during the construction infrastructure—commercial rail corridor land, phase. So there is no inconsistency between land containing other rail infrastructure and sections 3 and 4 in respect of the principles of surplus land, which is retained by QR, and the amount of compensation and there is no non-rail corridor land. change via the amendment to the principles of the amount of the compensation. All that we Non-rail corridor land becomes non- have changed by our amendment is to give allocated State land leased in perpetuity to the people the opportunity to claim the State through Queensland Transport. compensation during the construction period However, before it can be identified as non-rail rather than having to wait until it is completed. corridor land under the Act, as it is written currently, it has to meet two criteria: the land Amendment agreed to. has to be mentioned in the transport Clause 12, as amended, agreed to. infrastructure strategies and considered of strategic importance to the State as part of a Clause 13, as read, agreed to. transport corridor. Clause 14— Amendment agreed to. Mr BREDHAUER (3.11 p.m.): I move the Clause 15, as amended, agreed to. following amendment— Clause 16— "At page 80, lines 11 to 15— Mr BREDHAUER (3.13 p.m.): I move the omit, insert— following amendments— 'Insertion of new s 200A "At page 81, after entry for section '14. Chapter 9— 180F(3)(b)— insert— insert— 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3521

'180 Requirement by District 'PART 2—AUTHORISATIONS FOR chief executive COMPETITION LEGISLATION about public 'Division 1—Interpretation utility plant on 'Definitions for pt 2 busway land '154B. In this part— 180ZC Decision of chief District or executive about Magistrates'. "Competition Code" means the amount of Competition Code under the Competition additional Policy Reform (Queensland) Act 1996. expense "competition legislation" means TPA, 1 At page 81, after entry for section section 51(1)(b) or the Competition 2 180ZQ(3)(b)— Code, section 51. insert— "fare", in relation to a public passenger service, means— '180ZZJ Requirement by District (a) the price payable for use of the chief executive service; or about public utility plant on (b) the provisions of, or arrangements light rail land for, a discount, allowance, rebate or credit applying in relation to the price 180ZZO Decision of chief District or payable for use of the service. executive about Magistrates'." amount of "fare provision" see section 154C. additional "identified provision" see section 154D. expense "management entity" means— These amendments concern (a) the State; or amendments to Schedule 2 (Appeals) of the (b) a State influenced entity. Transport Infrastructure Act 1994. Their effect is to include some decisions of the chief "management entity provision" see executive in relation to public utility plant on section 154E. busway and light rail land in the merits-based "service entity" means an entity that review process. These were inadvertently provides or proposes to provide 1 or more omitted from the Bill. public passenger services in Queensland Amendments agreed to. as an operator. Clause 16, as amended, agreed to. "service entity provision" see section 154F. Clauses 17 to 23, as read, agreed to. "service equipment", for a public Insertion of new clause— passenger service, means any of the Mr BREDHAUER (3.14 p.m.): I move the following used in operating the service— following amendment— (a) facilities, including ticketing systems, "At page 92, after line 18— network monitoring systems, communications equipment and insert— timing systems; 'Omission of s 136 (Impersonation of (b) infrastructure, including tunnels, authorised person) stations, parking facilities and '23A. Section 136 (as enacted in Act No. passenger interchanges; 43 of 1994 as section 132 and (c) goods or services related to subsequently renumbered)— something mentioned in paragraph omit. (a) or (b). 'Insertion of new pt hdg "State influenced entity" see section '23B. Chapter 12, before section 143B— 154G. "TPA" means the Trade Practices Act insert— 1974 (Cwlth). 'PART 1—GENERAL'. 'Meaning of "fare provision" 'Insertion of new ch 12, pt 2 and new pt '154C.(1) For this part, a "fare provision" is hdg a provision about a fare (the "relevant '23C. Chapter 12, after section 154A— fare") applying for a public passenger insert— service of 1 or more service entities. 3522 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

'(2) However, a provision is a "fare with a public passenger service of provision" only if— another service entity; or (a) the provision has the purpose, or has (i) a service entity providing a public or is likely to have the effect, of— passenger service for or on behalf of (i) fixing, controlling or maintaining the another person, including another fare; or service entity, whether as principal or agent; or (ii) providing for the fixing, controlling or maintaining of the fare; and (j) a service entity issuing a ticket for a public passenger service, if all or part (b) the provision is negotiated and of the service is to be provided by 1 agreed to in the context of a or more other service entities; or contract, arrangement or (k) the name, sign, decal or logo under understanding for coordinating or which a service entity is to provide a integrating public passenger services; public passenger service; or and (l) the terms on which a service entity (c) at any particular time the provision is provides a public passenger service; given effect to, the relevant fare is or consistent with any model fare structure arrangement that— (m) the promotion of a public passenger service provided by 1 or more of the (i) has been approved by the chief service entities. executive; and 'Meaning of "management entity (ii) has been published in the gazette; provision" and '154E.(1) For this part, a "management (iii) is still in force. entity provision" is a provision about the 'Meaning of "identified provision" supply by a management entity of a '154D. For this part, a provision is an service for a public passenger service of 1 "identified provision" if it is a provision or more service entities. about— '(2) However, a provision is a "management entity provision" only if the (a) the coordination or integration of provision is— public passenger services of 2 or more service entities; or (a) about the persons or classes of persons to whom the service will be (b) the route to be used or not to be supplied; or used by a service entity in providing a public passenger service; or (b) to the effect that the management entity is to supply the service on (c) an area in which a service entity will condition that the service entity or or will not provide a public passenger entities are to acquire service service; or equipment, including from a person (d) where a service entity will or will not who is not a party to the contract, pick up or set down passengers in arrangement or understanding providing a public passenger service; containing the provision. or 'Meaning of "service entity provision" (e) the times a service entity will or will '154F.(1) For this part, a "service entity not provide a public passenger provision" is a provision about the service; or acquisition, use or supply of service (f) the persons or classes of persons to equipment for a public passenger service whom a service entity will or will not of 1 or more service entities. provide a public passenger service; '(2) However, a provision is a "service or entity provision" only if the provision is— (g) a characteristic of a vehicle, vessel or (a) about the persons or classes of item of rolling stock a service entity persons from whom the service will or will not use to provide a public equipment will be acquired or to passenger service; or whom the service equipment will be (h) a service entity not providing a public supplied; or passenger service that competes, or (b) to the effect that a service entity or if it were provided, would compete, management entity is to supply the 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3523

service equipment on condition that (i) offering to arrive at an understanding another person, including another containing the particular provision; service entity or management entity, (ii) refusing to arrive at an understanding is to acquire other service equipment, unless the understanding contains including from a person who is not a the particular provision; and party to the contract, arrangement or (c) reference to the supply of something understanding containing the includes reference to the following— provision. (i) the supply of the thing at a particular 'Meaning of "State influenced entity" price; '154G.(1) For this part, a "State influenced (ii) an offer to supply the thing; entity" is an entity whose functions include coordinating or facilitating the integration (iii) an offer to supply the thing at a of public passenger services. particular price; '(2) However, an entity is a "State (iv) giving, or offering to give, a discount, influenced entity" only if at least 1 of the allowance, rebate or credit in relation following applies— to the supply or proposed supply of the thing; (a) the State has power to appoint a person to, or remove a person from, (v) resupply of the thing; and the board or managing body of the (d) reference to the supply of something entity; on a condition includes reference to (b) the State has power to vote, or a refusal to supply the thing without control a vote, at a meeting of the the condition. board or managing body of the 'Division 2—Authorisations entity; 'Authorisations for coordination and (c) the State has power to vote, or integration of public passenger services control a vote, at a meeting of the '154J. The following things are specifically members of the entity. authorised for the competition 'References to public passenger services legislation— in pt 2 (a) 2 or more service entities making a '154H.(1) A reference in this part to a contract or arrangement, or arriving public passenger service does not include at an understanding, that includes an a reference to a public passenger service identified provision, but only if the that is a taxi service or limousine service. contract, arrangement or understanding was first approved by '(2) A reference in this part to the public the Minister; passenger service of a service entity is a reference to a public passenger service (b) a service entity giving effect to an the service entity provides or proposes to identified provision mentioned in provide in Queensland as an operator. paragraph (a); 'Extended meanings of certain (c) 2 or more service entities making a expressions in pt 2 contract or arrangement, or arriving at an understanding, containing a '154I. For this part— fare provision; (a) reference to making a contract or (d) a service entity giving effect to a fare arrangement containing a particular provision mentioned in paragraph (c); provision includes reference to the (e) 2 or more service entities making a following— contract or arrangement, or arriving (i) offering to make a contract or at an understanding, containing a arrangement containing the particular provision under which the service provision; entities— (ii) refusing to make a contract or (i) are to share revenue or profits arrangement unless the contract or received by any of them in relation to arrangement contains the particular a public passenger service of 1 or provision; and more of them; or (b) reference to arriving at an (ii) are to pay all or part of the costs understanding containing a particular related to providing a public provision includes reference to the passenger service of 1 or more of following— them; 3524 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

(f) a service entity giving effect to a '(2) Section 154J(b), (d), (f) and (h) applies provision mentioned in paragraph (e); to a provision for only 5 years after the (g) 2 or more service entities making a contract, arrangement or understanding contract or arrangement, or arriving containing the provision is made or arrived at an understanding, containing a at. service entity provision; 'Provisions supporting application of (h) a service entity giving effect to a authorisations service entity provision mentioned in '154L.(1) A thing authorised under section paragraph (g); 154J, as qualified by section 154K, is (i) 1 or more service entities and a authorised even if— management entity making a (a) it has a purpose, or an effect or likely contract or arrangement, or arriving effect, of substantially lessening at an understanding, containing an competition in a market; or identified provision, a fare provision, (b) it has a purpose described in TPA, a management entity provision or a section 46(1)4 or the Competition service entity provision; Code, section 46(1);5 or (j) a service entity or management (c) the applicable contract, arrangement entity giving effect to a provision or understanding contains a provision mentioned in paragraph (i); that— (k) a management entity and another (i) under TPA, section 4D,6 is taken to entity (the "system entity") making a be an exclusionary provision under contract or arrangement, or arriving TPA; or at an understanding, containing a provision about the system entity (ii) under the Competition Code, is taken doing 1 or more of the following in to be an exclusionary provision under relation to service equipment for 1 or the Competition Code. more service entities' public '(2) A thing mentioned in section 154J(g), passenger services— (h), (i), (j), (k) or (l), as qualified by section (i) designing the equipment; 154K, is authorised even if it involves an entity to which the provision applies (ii) making the equipment; engaging in the practice of exclusive (iii) building the equipment; dealing in a way described in TPA, section 477 or in the Competition Code, section (iv) installing the equipment; 47.8 (v) maintaining the equipment; 'PART 3—REGULATION-MAKING (l) an entity giving effect to a provision POWER'.'. mentioned in paragraph (k). 1 Trade Practices Act 1974 (Cwlth), section 'Provisions limiting application of 51 (Exceptions) authorisations 2 The Competition Code, section 51 states '154K.(1) Section 154J applies to a that in deciding whether a person has service entity in relation to a public contravened the Code, Part IV, certain passenger service it provides or proposes things must be disregarded. Section 51(1) to provide only if the service entity is— of the Code provides that the following must be disregarded— (a) if the public passenger service is a '(a) … service for the carriage of passengers on a railway— (b) anything done in a State, if the thing is specified in, and specifically (i) a railway manager for the railway; or authorised by: (ii) a person who is accredited under the (i) an Act passed by the Parliament of Transport Infrastructure Act 1994, that State; or chapter 6, part 43 as a railway (ii) regulations made under such an Act.' operator for the railway; or 3 Transport Infrastructure Act 1994, chapter (b) if the public passenger service is a 6 (Rail transport infrastructure), part 4 ferry service—the operator of the (Accreditation) ferry service; or 4 Trade Practices Act 1974 (Cwlth), section (c) otherwise—the holder of an operator 46 (Misuse of market power) accreditation for the public passenger 5 Competition Code, section 46 (Misuse of service. market power) 5 Oct 2000 Transport (Busway and Light Rail) Amendment Bill 3525

6 Trade Practices Act 1974 (Cwlth), section insert— 4D (Exclusionary provisions) 'Insertion of new pt 4A 7 Trade Practices Act 1974 (Cwlth), section 47 (Exclusive dealing) '33. After section 28— 8 Competition Code, section 47 (Exclusive insert— dealing) 'PART 4A—SPECIAL PROVISIONS FOR Amendment No. 13 and also amendment BUSWAYS No. 14 are basically amendments to the 'Definitions for pt 4A Transport Operations (Passenger Transport) '28A. In this part— Act. They relate to CityTrans and the coordination of bus and rail transport. "Acquisition Act" means the Acquisition of Land Act 1967. Amendment agreed to. "agreement" means an agreement under Clause 24, as read, agreed to. the Acquisition Act, section 15(1). Insertion of new clause— "busway" means— Mr BREDHAUER (3.15 p.m.): I move the (a) a route especially designed and following amendment— constructed for, and dedicated to, "At page 93, after line 8— the priority movement of buses for insert— passenger transport purposes; and 'Amendment of sch 3 (Dictionary) (b) places for the taking on and letting off of bus passengers using the '24A. Schedule 3— route. insert— "commencement" means the ' "Competition Code", for chapter 12, part commencement of section 28B. 2, see section 154B. "constructing authority", for a land "competition legislation", for chapter 12, acquisition, means the constructing part 2, see section 154B. authority for the land acquisition under the "fare", for chapter 12, part 2, see Acquisition Act. section 154B. "construction contract" means a contract concerning the construction of a busway. "fare provision", for chapter 12, part 2, see section 154C. "land acquisition" means the taking of land under the authority of this Act and "identified provision", for chapter 12, part the Acquisition Act if, regardless of the 2, see section 154D. particular purpose for the taking of the "management entity", for chapter 12, part land, the taking of land is concerned with 2, see section 154B. the construction or proposed construction "management entity provision", for of a busway. chapter 12, part 2, see section 154E. "notice of intention to resume" means a "service entity", for chapter 12, part 2, see notice of intention to resume under the section 154B. Acquisition Act. "service entity provision", for chapter 12, "taking of land" means the taking of part 2, see section 154F. land— "service equipment", for a public (a) under a gazette notice under the passenger service, for chapter 12, part 2, Acquisition Act, section 9(7), see section 154B. including as amended by any amending gazette notice under "State influenced entity", for chapter 12, section 11 of that Act; or part 2, see section 154G. (b) under a gazette notice under the "TPA", for chapter 12, part 2, see Acquisition Act, section 15(6A). section 154B.'.'." 'Busway land acquisition Amendment agreed to. '28B.(1) Subsections (2) and (3) apply to a Clauses 25 to 32, as read, agreed to. land acquisition that— Insertion of new part— (a) happened before the Mr BREDHAUER (3.15 p.m.): I move the commencement; or following amendment— (b) happens after the commencement "At page 96, after line 21— if— 3526 Evidence Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

(i) the notice of intention to resume for '(6) Despite anything in a notice of the land acquisition was served intention to resume or agreement for a before the commencement; or land acquisition happening before or after (ii) the date of the agreement for the the commencement, and despite any land acquisition was earlier than the limitations or proposed limitations on the commencement. public use of the land the subject of the land acquisition, it is declared that the '(2) It is declared that the validity and purposes of the land acquisition— effectiveness of the land acquisition was (a) if happening before the not, and is not, affected by— commencement—are taken always (a) whether the constructing authority to have included the purpose of was or is, or purported or purports to roads; and be— (b) if happening after the (i) the chief executive with commencement—are taken to administrative responsibilities include the purpose of roads. concerning matters connected with 'Construction contracts transport infrastructure; or '28C. It is declared that the validity and (ii) the chief executive with effectiveness of a construction contract administrative responsibilities entered into before or after the concerning matters connected with commencement was not, and is not, roads; or affected by whether the entity entering (b) for the application of the Acquisition into the contract for the State was or is— Act, section 9 or 15, whether the (a) the chief executive with person assuming the role of Minister administrative responsibilities was or is the Minister mentioned in concerning matters connected with the Acquisition Act, section 9(2), transport infrastructure; or definition "Minister", paragraph (b) or (b) the chief executive with another Minister. administrative responsibilities '(3) It is declared that, despite anything concerning matters connected with done for the land acquisition, the roads.'.'." constructing authority for the acquisition is Basically, amendment No. 15 deals with taken to be, and always to have been, the commencement of the validation the chief executive with administrative provisions in relation to the process by which responsibilities concerning matters land has been acquired for the busways, which connected with roads. is the issue that we discussed previously. '(4) Subsection (5) applies for achieving a Amendment agreed to. valid and effective land acquisition after Bill reported, with amendments. the commencement if— (a) the notice of intention to resume for the land acquisition is served after Third Reading the commencement; or Bill, on motion of Mr Bredhauer, by leave, (b) the date of the agreement for the read a third time. land acquisition is later than the commencement. EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL '(5) It is declared that— Second Reading (a) the constructing authority for the land Resumed from 12 April (see p. 779). acquisition must be the chief Mr SPRINGBORG (Warwick—NPA) executive with administrative (Deputy Leader of the Opposition) (3.17 p.m.): responsibilities concerning matters The Opposition will be supporting this piece of connected with roads; and legislation before the Parliament, because it (b) for the application of the Acquisition seeks to preserve what was effectively the Act, section 9 or 15, the person status quo until a recent decision of the assuming the role of Minister must Queensland Court of Appeal. be the Minister mentioned in the For the benefit of honourable members, I Acquisition Act, section 9(2), will explain the standard of proof that is definition "Minister", paragraph (b). expected when a person is being sentenced 5 Oct 2000 Evidence Amendment Bill 3527 by a court, the way that it existed previously It is extremely important for the and the way that it exists post the decision in Parliament to pass this legislation. I commend the Queensland Court of Appeal. We are all the Attorney-General for bringing it before the aware that two different standards must be Parliament. It is very important that we considered by our courts, depending on maintain the status quo. For a long time we whether it is a criminal trial or a civil trial. If it is have found that we as members of Parliament a criminal trial, that standard has to be beyond have to come in here to clarify matters of law reasonable doubt. If it is a civil trial, that and things that we have always thought to standard has to be on the balance of have been the case following decisions of probabilities. courts in Queensland and, in more recent The situation that existed for those people times, in Commonwealth courts. That is who were faced with a criminal trial in court has something that we will have to continue to do. been that the prosecution has had to establish In conclusion, we need to be looking at beyond reasonable doubt that the accused other issues of evidence. Certain matters are committed the crime that was being before the Law Reform Commission that have considered by the court. That is fair enough been recommended or will subsequently be because, when dealing with criminal matters, recommended, such as the evidence of child the accused person could potentially lose their witnesses. It is important that in the not-too- liberty and have their life affected for a very, distant future we see the necessary legislation very long time indeed, particularly when the coming into the Parliament that ensures the offence being considered is a serious offence, protection of child witnesses. That and no such as arson, manslaughter, rape, murder or doubt other issues will be the subject of a drug-related offence. So making sure that ongoing debate in this place. we have a standard of proof that is beyond By and large this legislation is worthy of reasonable doubt is extremely important. the wholehearted support and endorsement of However, once that has been established by the Parliament because it seeks to preserve the court it has been the practice, up until this the status quo that existed prior to the decision particular case in the Court of Appeal, that the of the Court of Appeal only some months ago. sentencing judge had to be satisfied on each of the sentencing points only on the balance Mr LUCAS (Lytton—ALP) (3.22 p.m.): I of probabilities. Of course, the judge might wish to make a few brief comments in relation also consider the gravity of the offence and to this legislation, which I note is supported by the length of sentence. both sides of the House. The Bill in question seeks by statute to reverse a majority decision Following this decision of the Court of of the Court of Appeal in a case known as Appeal in Queensland, it would appear that Morrison's case, in which the Court of Appeal the sentencing judge now must also have to took the view that facts to be determined on be satisfied on each of the points of sentence sentences in our criminal courts ought to be to the standard of beyond reasonable doubt. determined beyond a reasonable doubt. That The real concern with that is that it has the turned established practice on its head. As the potential to take up court time, add to the shadow Attorney-General noted in his speech, costs of court cases and unfairly delay the it has always been the practice that guilt has speedy resolution of court business. I do not been determined beyond a reasonable doubt. believe any reasonable benefit to the accused That is one of the most fundamental threads can come from the Parliament supporting this of our common law system. But the question judgment of the Court of Appeal. At the end of of facts after there has been a determination the day, that person still has a paramount of guilt or a plea of guilty has been made has protection in law in that they are being been determined on the balance of accused and tried in a criminal court and, as probabilities. There are some very good such, as I said earlier, the prosecution has had reasons for that. to establish that that person is guilty beyond reasonable doubt. That is what has happened It is not always easy to establish facts in a in those cases. It is only semantics then to sentence hearing. It can be done through a have a situation where, on each point for full hearing. That is how facts are established sentencing deliberation, the judge has to at a criminal or a civil trial, unless they are consider beyond reasonable doubt all of those admitted. But that is not the purpose. The issues at hand when on the balance of purpose of a sentencing hearing is far probabilities is a fair enough test. Again, I think different. It is very important to remember that the most important test is establishing the guilt often issues such as the impact of the crime or otherwise of the accused person to start on victims and the value of victim's property with. that might be involved are canvassed. We do 3528 Evidence Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 not want to have a situation where a victim that some victims will be so daunted by the says, for example, "This piece of property had prospect of cross-examination that they may great intrinsic value to me. It was a family decide not to provide impact statements for heirloom. It might not be worth a lot of money use at the sentencing hearing. It is neither fair to someone else, but it had great personal nor necessary for victims of crime or for the value to the family", and then the person is community to be lumbered with this extra cross-examined on that to establish it beyond financial and emotional burden. The reasonable doubt. And if there were some sentencing judge still has the discretion to call doubt about it, that fact would not be additional evidence if he or she sees fit. accepted. That would be quite unfortunate. Therefore, we will be supporting the Bill. Similarly, we do not want situations where Hon. M. J. FOLEY (Yeronga—ALP) victims are exposed to unnecessary cross- (Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and examination in the course of a sentencing Minister for The Arts) (3.27 p.m.), in reply: I hearing. We have to remember that at this thank honourable members for their support of point the issue of guilt has already been the Bill. This Bill is an important correction to determined. the law. My approach in the role of Attorney- One thing I will say in closing, though, is General is to try to enhance the rights of that the fact that there is a change back to the victims without prejudicing the rights of previous situation where facts on sentence are accused persons. I believe that this Bill reflects determined on the balance of probabilities that approach. Indeed, I commend a number does not mean that the facts cannot be of the judges who have drawn attention to disputed. There is no suggestion of that at all. problems in this area. In my second-reading If there are facts, they can still be disputed. speech I referred to the contribution of Judge But the test will be on the balance of Ford and Judge Robertson of the District probabilities, which is appropriate. This is fairly Court, who drew attention to the problems straightforward legislation, and I support it. arising out of Morrison's case. I note also the contribution of the President of the Court of Mr PAFF (Ipswich West—CCAQ) Appeal, Justice McMurdo, and Justice (3.25 p.m.): Today I rise to support the Thomas. So this is an area in which there have Evidence Amendment Bill 2000. We feel that it been different expressions of view from the is important to return our law to the state in judiciary. which it was prior to the decision of the Queensland Court of Appeal in R v. Morrison. This legislation ensures that the It is appropriate that the burden of proof of sentencing process has all of the safeguards beyond reasonable doubt in a criminal trial that it has traditionally had but does not tie it remain with the prosecution. However, this up in unnecessary red tape or unnecessary should not be the case during sentencing legalism. I say "unnecessary legalism" hearings. because much legalism is sometimes necessary. It is not, in my view as someone If we allow the Appeal Court decision in who practised in the criminal law for a number the Morrison case to provide the direction in of years, an area in which there was evidence future sentencing hearings, we will end up of injustice in the way the courts approached it. having a legal system that requires two I appeared for many persons who were either separate trials before a criminal can be sent to found guilty or who pleaded guilty to criminal jail. Quite apart from the added costs to the offences and appeared before the court on community of this extra trial, there would be an sentence. The fact finding process that the intolerable emotional cost to the victims of courts engaged in was never really a matter of crime. These are the people who have been controversy among practitioners at the criminal beaten, robbed, raped, sexually abused or bar. It was really, I think, a line of judicial otherwise victimised by criminals. In most authority that did not reflect any widespread cases they have already had to relive the concern among practitioners at the criminal bar trauma of testifying in court and being that led to Morrison's case. subjected to aggressive cross-examination by the defence. I think it is important for the Legislature to show some leadership in this area. I think it is Through their victim impact statements particularly important for the Legislature to do they seek to present to the sentencing judge so where the position of victims is involved. information about their current financial There is a shallow misconception that the situation and the way in which the offence in rights of victims and the rights of accused question has impacted on their way of life, persons are at odds with each other. I think particularly in regard to the state of their that that need not be so. It is often the system physical and mental health. It is fair to assume itself which, by virtue of its cumbersome 5 Oct 2000 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 3529 nature—the many parties and interest groups officers of my department for their involved: the prosecution, Legal Aid, considerable assistance. I move— corrections, the police and the court itself—can "That the title of the Bill be agreed tend to marginalise victims. If we left the law in to." the state that it was in after Morrison's case, we would not in my view be doing justice to Motion agreed to. victims. In my view it would make it more cumbersome for victims without contributing in PENALTIES AND SENTENCES AND OTHER any real or reasonable way to the processes of ACTS AMENDMENT BILL fact finding that a court must engage in when dealing with an offender. Second Reading I think if we want to give effect to these Resumed from 1 June (see p. 1541). principles of assisting the victim, of ensuring Mr SPRINGBORG (Warwick—NPA) that victims are treated fairly and that they are (Deputy Leader of the Opposition) (3.35 p.m.): not marginalised, we have to take these I would just like to outline at the outset that the actions. Victims are not simply people who are Opposition will be supporting this legislation, wheeled into the court as mere witnesses and but we will be raising some issues throughout then disposed of. Victims have important rights the course of the afternoon. The involvement in the process, and we should respect that. of Aboriginal elders or community justice Part of that entails constantly monitoring the groups in the criminal justice system in system to ensure that it is kept up to date and Queensland is a very, very important that it is speedy. consideration for members of Parliament Earlier today I announced a major because I think it is a very progressive step initiative of a six-month pilot project to assist all which should be encouraged to break the parties involved in the criminal justice process, cycle of crime that permeates many Aboriginal particularly victims in far-north Queensland, communities. The cycle of crime, of course, focusing on Aurukun, Bamaga and does not permeate only indigenous— Kowanyama. I will not go into the details of Aboriginal and Islander—communities around that now, but my point is simply that, if we are Queensland. Certainly we have significant fair dinkum about trying to ensure that the problems in other places, but I think it is fair to criminal justice system treats victims properly, say that what is experienced in indigenous then business as usual is not good enough. communities is at a greater level than what we We have to do better. We have to constantly see in the general community. monitor the way things are. If we see changes It is also fair to say that the ATSI in the law which involve unnecessary delay or community throughout Australia makes up unnecessary legalism, then we have to have around 2% of the population. However, I think the courage to face up to them and to reform its representation in our prison population is them. We must do so in a humane way. We around 25%. So honourable members can must do so in a way which respects the great see that there is a significant traditions of the law in safeguarding the liberty overrepresentation of ATSI people in prisons. of the citizen. I thank honourable members for That also gives the lie to the comment that we their support and I commend the Bill to the hear very much around the State from time to House. time that it is almost impossible to prosecute Motion agreed to. an ATSI person. There is this perception that they do not necessarily go to jail. People have only to look at the figures to see quite clearly Committee that that is not true. Clauses 1 to 5, as read, agreed to. At the end of the day we need to consider Bill reported, without amendment. that there is a set of standards that we all need to uphold in the community, that we all need to have a value system which quite Third Reading clearly determines the difference between right Bill, on motion of Mr Foley, by leave, read and wrong. At the end of the day people a third time. decide for themselves what they are going to do in the area of crime. The way that we respond as a State and the way that we Title respond as a Government or as a Parliament Hon. M. J. FOLEY (Yeronga—ALP) is something that I suppose we need to (Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and consider given the circumstances, given the Minister for The Arts) (3.34 p.m.): I thank best evidence and also given the experiences 3530 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 to date. I think that has probably led to the Spence have. An elder in Bamaga said to me presentation of this legislation to the that the problem that his community has with Parliament. its young people is that they do not see any Up until recent times there has been a deterrent whatsoever with the European justice situation in which community justice groups, system. The elders would like to think that it funded through the office of Minister Spence, works effectively, but it does not work have been involved in some of those areas at effectively. There are a few runaway juveniles a lower level. As I understand it, to date they who cause significant problems, and perhaps have been able to provide sentencing some adults. In the case of juveniles, what alternatives to magistrates in non-serious happens to them? They go before a cases. This Bill basically seeks to elevate that magistrate and are sent to the Cleveland one step further and to involve community Detention Centre in Townsville. They do not justice groups, which generally comprise fear what they are going to experience. In leaders in the Aboriginal community—that is actual fact, it is an adventure for them. elders and other eminent people within the Whilst in detention they are given three community—in providing sentencing square meals a day and a television. They are recommendations to judges in the higher given the chance to partake in interactive court. I think that that is a sensible opportunities they may not otherwise have had amendment. It is certainly something that I and—this is what I have been told from elders advocated very strongly in January of this year. in that community—they come back with a There are a few things, though, on which we new set of Nikes. When they return to the do differ with the Government, but it is not community, they talk to their mates about it enough for us to oppose aspects of the who think to themselves, "That can't have legislation. Nevertheless, we wish to put those been an altogether bad experience." That on record. situation indicates that what we have done to date is not working to address these issues in Respect for one's traditional elders, ATSI communities around Queensland. We as respect for one's traditional way of life and legislators should therefore think somewhat respect for one's customary law is very outside of the square. If we want to think important in those communities, particularly outside of the square, we need to be careful to those ATSI communities which are still very make sure that we get the chemistry right. much knitted together. It is more difficult for this system to work when there has been a When I asked community councils and degree of fragmentation and urbanisation elders what sort of role they wanted in the around Queensland and further afield. justice system, I received an extremely However, where there is still a very strong interesting response. A number of them said nucleus of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander that what they would like to do is take the people, the ability to achieve the Bill's aim is offenders out the back and give them a good far greater than would otherwise be the case. towelling over, thinking that that would fix them. I said to them that I was not so sure that The Deputy Prime Minister, John we could go that far in Queensland. I think Anderson, said in November of last year that there might be significant problems in one of the real problems in many Aboriginal attempting to legislate along those lines. communities in New South Wales was the However, there are some elements of their breakdown in elder respect. That is very much justice system which we can quite responsibly evident in some of Queensland's ATSI incorporate within our system. This communities. One only has to speak to demonstrates that some of those communities community leaders across the cape to hear and some of the individual directions they want the frustration they feel. They have tried to run to take go further than where we want to go. a community and enforce a sense of self- We say that we will respect the cultural esteem, respect and values upon their differences and cultural issues of these younger people, but younger people do not communities. When they say that they would necessarily respect the traditional role that like to give them a traditional towelling, we elders play. We all know the traditional role cannot do that because that does not fit within that elders have had in ATSI communities in our modern Western standards. Therefore, Queensland. We as parliamentarians should many of these people think, "How much are do what we can to legislate to underpin the they really listening to what we're saying?" strong role they have played. However, that is impossible for us to do. I I have had interesting representations understand that the Northern Territory has from people in relation to this issue, as no given a far greater degree of latitude to its doubt the Attorney-General and Minister traditional communities to deal with problems 5 Oct 2000 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 3531 in more summary ways. But that is not without It is difficult to establish Aboriginal police issue. Some Aboriginal elders have said to me liaison officers in some communities where during the crime forums being conducted there are two quite distinct Aboriginal around Queensland that years ago they were communities. When setting up the selection taken out and speared in the leg. I replied, committee, one side says, "We should have "That's a bit harsh, isn't it?" They said, "There somebody on this selection committee." The is not a big problem with recidivism." However, other side says, "We should have someone on that is still fairly dramatic compared to the way the selection committee." A person from either we have tried to evolve our justice system. The side becoming the ALO can create a very best we can hope for is to consider and interesting situation. The process of appointing respect aspects of their customary law and people to various positions needs to be very aspects of their customary considerations with diplomatic and pragmatic. I suppose that is no regard to dealing with crime problems in the different to the internal politics in non-ATSI community and incorporate that in our justice communities throughout Queensland. system. This legislation seeks to do that. There is some concern about this issue in I would have preferred trialling an the community. I do not know if the Attorney- extension of the involvement of community General has heard about it. Certainly, it is an justice groups in providing sentencing issue that has been raised with me in recommendations to judges of the District Brisbane. When in Cairns I was asked how we Court and justices of the Supreme Court. The could apply this situation where there is a far issue we are dealing with is an imperfect more secure and definable nucleus of ATSI science at this stage. We really do not know communities. Issues were raised as to who how it is going to work. Certainly, it will work would be a part of it and how it would differently in different places around ultimately work. However, I would have Queensland. As I said at the outset, the preferred to have seen a trial of the system to application of this system would be relatively see how it would work in order to analyse it easy when looking at cape communities, areas and find the best way to apply it across around Cairns which have significant Queensland. When I visited the cape in indigenous communities, areas around January of this year I made a commitment that Townsville and perhaps even Mackay and the Queensland coalition, if elected, would other areas around Queensland which have a commit itself to trial this in perhaps three cape strong and secure nucleus of ATSI communities. I said that the system should be communities. Once we start broadening these on a trial basis because that gives us the sorts of options to all areas of Queensland, it chance to more clearly modify it, and if it did will not be without it problems. not work we would not proceed with it. An Aboriginal elder from Brisbane rang The other thing I said when I visited that me about four months ago and urged me to community was that I feel there is a very oppose this legislation. He urged me to strong need for us to include some traditional oppose this legislation on the basis that it Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander notions of would create division in the community. He justice. They involve the notions of was quite happy with the existing justice banishment, shame and humiliation. Some in system in this State because there had been those communities said that they have their significant headway made. He said that one of own ways of doing that at the moment. I was the major issues as to why this legislation talking with people in either Bamaga or would be extremely difficult and unwise to Kowanyama about the issue of banishment. support was because, in many areas of One lady said that years ago, in her mother or Queensland, particularly places such as grandmother's generation, if somebody played Brisbane, there is a significant fragmentation up they were sent over to a cousin community of traditional Aboriginal communities. Who is to at Palm Island. That was their form of establish who should be on those justice banishment: people were excluded from their groups? There are competing interests which own community. are a part of many traditional Aboriginal clan I concede that in this day and age those situations. Who will decide who will be in and things become a little more difficult to achieve. who will be out? In common with European In our notion of justice, European justice, Australians, there are differences of areas. some of those things seem a little harsh, but There are certainly differences of areas within they worked within those communities, and ATSI communities across Queensland and those communities are very keen to look at quite strong differences as to who is traditional how to incorporate the use of exclusion, to an area. shame and humiliation. Those particular 3532 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 options do not appear to be included in the sentencing options of judges. I would like the legislation we are considering today. Attorney-General to expand on this in his I was very pleased that, after we speech in reply to the second-reading debate. announced our intention to look at something When I announced these measures in the like this, the Government indicated that it was cape earlier this year I said that they should looking at a legislative framework for those not be implemented in the case of people who principles. Whether that was under active commit serious offences—those who commit consideration in the department I am not sure. the types of offences that would go before our I will be charitable to the Attorney-General and District and Supreme Courts—which would to the Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait prevent them from going to jail, at least as a Islander Policy, who said that they had been part of their sentence. I am very keen to hear looking at something like this. I would hope our what the Attorney-General envisages in that comments have brought that issue to a more regard. Does he envisage that the community speedy conclusion in Parliament than it may justice group will have the capacity to otherwise have had if it had not been recommend that there be no jail sentence mentioned in January of this year. It is when there would otherwise be some time extremely important that we get the chemistry served in jail? right. What I envisaged with my proposal was We are in an era of reconciliation. When I that if a person warrants incarceration they was going across the cape it was would be incarcerated, but maybe for some acknowledged by people that the Bjelke- lesser time, and then be put under the Petersen Government had the first indigenous authority of a justice group and have the member of Parliament in Eric Deeral, who was remainder of the sentence dealt with in their elected in 1974 and defeated in 1977. I say to community. That might involve a person being honourable members that an indigenous taken to an out-station or being dealt with in person becoming a member of Parliament another way desired by the community. today would be heralded as one of the There was a very strong view amongst greatest steps forward in reconciliation, but the ATSI community councils, which basically hold election of an indigenous person happened in communities together—they are the nucleus of Queensland almost 30 years ago. I think that and the driving force behind those just goes to show how perceptions change communities—that the out-station idea is an and how the level of hype attached to certain extremely important one. They supported the things changes. Some things that once establishment of well-resourced out-stations seemed to be accepted as relatively where juveniles or adults can be taken and insignificant are very much the focus of today. looked after in a customary way. The offenders I think it is extremely important for us to would be taken away from negative foster a situation of the major political parties influences—whether they be alcohol, their doing whatever they can to encourage far peers or whatever—and would have a chance more ATSI participation in our political process. under the guidance of the community leaders There is always a difference between talking to rebuild their self-esteem and to be taught and actually delivering real participation in our skills. democratic process. I am not one who The results of these sorts of programs are advocates quotas. I will never advocate quotas not immediate. It will take a long time for them on the basis of gender, race or any other sort to be seen. The sorts of things that will solve of representation in Parliament. I think that the problems in the cape and in many of our gives us a mock democracy. I think at the end other ATSI communities are long-term options. of the day we have to address the underlying The problems have become ingrained over concerns and the reasons people might not generations and it will probably take necessarily want to participate. That involves generations to redress the issues—welfare our political process being inclusive. I think it is dependency, crime or whatever the case may very significant that there has only ever been be. It is going to take a long time and there is one ATSI member of this Chamber, elected in no perfect solution. 1974 and voted out in 1977. I think that was It will be difficult in the short term to the ultimate in reconciliation. Can members assess the success or otherwise of the imagine what sort of fanfare would accompany programs put in place as a consequence of that event today? the legislation we are debating today. How will As we look at these issues it is important we assess their success in five years' time? that we ensure that serious offenders do not Will it be a matter of simply looking at statistics escape jail, which will remain one of the relating to the number and proportion of ATSI 5 Oct 2000 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 3533 people in Queensland prisons in Queensland? The issue of addressing concerns in ATSI Will it be a matter of looking at the number communities is not new. It is something that and type of reported offences in five years' has been around for a long time. I believe we time, comparing them with current statistics should be looking at other issues such as and trying to determine whether there has winding in restorative justice concepts. I do not been a decline or an increase in the number of believe that restorative justice per se is spelt offences in those communities? out here. The Attorney-General may envisage Certainly there are a significant number of that restorative justice is a part of the offences committed in those communities. alternative sentencing options which he might One only has to look at the issue of domestic like to put forward, but I believe that this is an violence to see that. I am sure you are very extremely important matter. aware of that, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last Most people are prepared to give non- year the Courier-Mail carried an article which violent offenders a second go because they indicated that there could be up to $60m in believe that people can run off the rails. outstanding criminal compensation claims from Residents are concerned when they see the cape. That is extremely significant. people committing the same type of offence The problems of alcoholism and welfare over and over again. The common view is that dependency and the social breakdown they if an offender keeps offending, the processes cause in those communities become self- which are put in place to address offending perpetuating. We see it in non-ATSI behaviour are not working. communities around Queensland, but we see Whilst there have been some steps taken it to a far greater extent in ATSI communities towards the incorporation of restorative justice because of the circumstances in those in our system over the last few years in this communities. All of those things combine to State, I believe it is something we should take lead to a disproportionate representation in the a degree further. I understand this system is criminal justice system. now working in about four communities in To ensure the success of this program I Queensland with regard to juvenile justice. think the Attorney-General needs to provide an Restorative justice is the clear option rather assurance to the people of Queensland that than a young person entering the criminal those who commit serious offences and who justice system. I believe that not only could we will be considered under this legislation will not have restorative justice outside the traditional escape some time in jail if jail is warranted. I criminal justice system but we could also have will tell the House why. There is a perception those concepts incorporated as part of our and a concern that the justice system does traditional criminal justice system. treat ATSI and non-ATSI offenders differently. I think that is an unfair perception in most I know that this matter has been cases; however, if we have something in the considered. Some steps are taken towards it. law that entrenches distinctly different justice It is a case of three steps forward and four systems beyond the consideration of cultural steps back, and four steps forward and five issues and customary law issues, then I think steps back. We need to make offenders far we run the risk of seeing dissent and division more aware of the impact that their crimes emerge in our community. That is something have on individuals and the broader that we need to be very careful about. community. People say to me that if one does not have a conscience, one cannot possibly Mr Foley: I am very happy to give a be rehabilitated. Without a conscience, an public assurance of equality before the law. offender would have no understanding of the Mr SPRINGBORG: Thank you very much, impact of his offences upon individuals and Mr Attorney-General. I think it is important. If the community at large. one looks at the polls and some of the issues I think it is most important that we bring that have been raised in this State and this offenders together with people who have been nation in the last few years, one becomes offended against, if the people who have been aware of the concerns that I have been raising offended against are prepared to do that. In today. that way, offenders will have the capacity to sit I would like to return to the question of down and listen and appreciate the impact of what the Minister envisages could be allowed the crime they have committed. I believe the in the form of customary law at some future restorative justice concept is something which time. That is an important point to the ATSI could be extremely important in our criminal community in Queensland. Many people justice system. It has already been proposed would be happy to hear what the Minister has in the Penalties and Sentences and Other to say about that issue. Acts Amendment Bill. It will provide a greater 3534 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 degree of involvement for ATSI communities in feeling that they are part of the system. We Queensland. can build on the concept of restorative justice If a person is aware of the impact of his to the extent that offenders may have to crime, if he has a conscience, and if he is apologise as a condition of their parole. It may prepared to do something about it, I believe be that we can reach the stage at which that will be the best way for us to avoid having offenders will sit down with the victim and repeat crimes. I am sure a lot of people go negotiate some sort of restorative measure. It through our criminal justice system who, apart might mean that the offender will say, "Okay. I from the victim impact statement and the will come around and cut your grass once a testimony of the victim in court, are unaware of week", or something like that. I would like to the impact of their crimes. hear from the Attorney-General whether he would envisage introducing such a concept at For them, the court process is over and some future time. that is it. They do not understand that the victim is going to have nightmares for years. I would like to conclude by referring to the The victims are the people who are ultimately number of reports which have been prepared sentenced. to date. I commend the Government for introducing this legislation into the Parliament. Mr Purcell: It's their lifetime. I would have preferred to have seen a trial of Mr SPRINGBORG: That is right, it is their the provisions of this legislation because I am life. I am sure the honourable member for not completely convinced that it will work. A Bulimba has seen people in this situation. trial period would have enabled us to introduce These are the people with recurring some modifications to the legislation. nightmares. In many cases, there is an impact on the victim's family to the extent that it can One thing that became very apparent to lead to family break-up. One would think that me at Cape York was that many people are sometimes these crimes would bring victims frustrated. There have been a lot of task forces and their families together. However, and a lot of committees. We have had a lot of sometimes the pressures are so great that people looking at a lot of issues. A lot of families are broken apart. Victims also lose reports have been deposited in drawers, filing their jobs because they cannot handle the cabinets and in-trays all around Queensland pressure. These are the people who suffer and have not been acted upon. I put this issue nervous shock as a consequence of the crime. to a couple of ATSI people. I asked them where we should be going in respect of some I do not believe this matter is considered of the traditional forms of punishment. I asked seriously enough in our community. Victims of them whether we should have a forum on that crime have told me that they are the ones who matter. I was told, "We have talked about wear the scars. The offender goes to jail where those issues. We have discussed them over he may be rehabilitated. In jail he is given and over again." Their attitude is, "Here we go TAFE options and he is hopefully retrained. again. Are we going to have another talkfest? The victims lose their jobs and there is no Where is it going to lead?" retraining for them. The system does not help the victim. The Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Policy is present in the I concede that in 1995 the Attorney- Chamber. There are a lot of things that the General introduced legislation which seeks to Government needs to pick up on. The report incorporate the concerns of victims of crime of Boni Robertson and the indigenous before the courts. I believe that was a step in women's task force looked at certain issues. I the right direction. It was a very important step believe that was a good initiative. The report in this direction, but we have a long way to go. was tabled in Parliament in November last Traditionally, our justice system has never year. There is a lot of frustration and a lot of considered the rights or the concerns of victims concern on the cape. I share that concern. We because victims have only ever been an will probably go 12 months down the track exhibit until recent times. I am sure the before anything is done. Attorney-General appreciates that. That is the basis of our system of justice. In a sense, Ms Spence: The legislation we are crimes were an offence against the State debating today is a response to one of the rather than an offence against the victim. The recommendations of the task force. victim walked into the court, became an Mr SPRINGBORG: That is one element of exhibit, and was out of there with his concerns the legislation. The involvement of elders is still intact. one element of the task force report. Certainly At least we now have the provision for that report was presented in November of last victim impact statements. Victims now have a year. I am still not completely satisfied in my 5 Oct 2000 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 3535 own mind that it is a direct response to it. If it is Mr SPRINGBORG: If the Minister for a direct response, that is good. Keeping in Public Works and Minister for Housing is mind that I think it was in January that I was rocketing forward on these issues and is so far talking about the issue as well, if that is the advanced, why hasn't he presented the case, I think it would have been one of the Government's response to it so that we are most speedy responses ever to come out of able to have a look at it? That is what I am Government, even though it might be dealing saying. with one particular aspect. Ms Spence: We have. Ms Spence: A very hard-working Mr SPRINGBORG: The Government has Attorney-General. not. Mr SPRINGBORG: There is a Coroner's Act that needs reviewing. I would like to say Ms Spence: You completely miss the that maybe we should be lighting a fire under point every time. We have done the first the Attorney-General with regard to the response. We are preparing the second Coroner's Act as well. He was reviewing that response. It will be released in December. Boni Act in 1998, 1999 and again in the year 2000. Robertson and the task force are well aware of Basically, there is a Bill sitting in Parliament that and they are pleased with the over— Government's progress. They are not talking to you because they are happy with the Mr Schwarten interjected. Government's progress. Mr SPRINGBORG: There is a lot he has Mr SPRINGBORG: What I am saying is not done. There is a draft Bill on the Coroner's that a consolidated response to that task force Act that has been sitting there for two years report has not been forthcoming. There has and also a set of costings, so I am just saying been nothing forthcoming that is indicating that if he is going to proclaim himself as that there is any incremental plan from the Speedy Gonzales, there are a few other Government for the delivery of those services. important areas of law reform that I would like to see the Attorney-General rocket into as well. Mr Schwarten: That's not right. But I am yet to be convinced that there was Mr SPRINGBORG: There is not. There is really a response to that. It might have been a not something that is publicly available. There response to my own calls and a little bit of is not something out there that the community catch-up. Maybe we should give him the is able to access and on which it is able to say, benefit of the doubt. "This is where it started off. This is how the There are other aspects of Boni Government is going to respond to each one Robertson's report that included the notions of of those issues in a staged way." There is customary law—banishment, shame and nothing like that. humiliation—but as I understand it they are not Ms Spence: There is a first response. The included in this legislation. There were certain second response will be out in December— other issues that she addressed in the and it won't be the last response. These things domestic violence area. She also addressed are not resolved by one response. The next the closure of canteens and working with response will come out in December, and communities to find alternative ways of being there will be more. able to raise revenue. I think that it is extremely important that those other aspects Mr SPRINGBORG: What I am saying to come forward. the Minister is that even the things that we are seeing, if they have come out of that, are still There is a lot of frustration out in the ad hoc. I still think there are ways that the community. I note that Tony Koch in a number Government can lay out a very clear of pages of the Courier-Mail hailed this determination of the things that are planned to wonderful report of Boni Robertson when it be done now and, if it wants to do things in the was handed down. It was fantastic, there is no future, it should say that they are issues for doubt about it. Probably some of those issues active consideration. There are a lot of things have been talked about before, but certainly on which I would like to be able to say to the he has not been as proactive in prodding the Minister that, yes, we can provide bipartisan Government to come forward with its response support so they can be expedited. That is what to the report. That response was promised in I would like to be able to say to the Minister, April. There was certainly a mealy-mouthed but I am concerned when I hear things such draft response which was leaked. as that the response that was due in April is to Mr Schwarten: There are five women's be produced later on in the year. That sort of shelters going up in Aboriginal communities as thing leads me to believe that there are things a result of that report. that are causing the process to be held up. 3536 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

I am sure that we could assist the sly-grogging issue. They raise a significant Government in expediting many of these amount of the revenue that is required for issues through this Parliament. After the those communities across the cape. But the Minister last year made a statement real irony about them, of course, is that whilst somewhere—I did not see it myself—the they provide up to a million dollars, I think in media or the Minister's office asked me, "The the case of Kowanyama and $400,000 in the Government is going to develop a 2010 sort of case of Bamaga, their social cost is actually far proposal for ATSI policy in Queensland. Will greater than the revenue that they return to you be prepared to provide bipartisan the council. The council actually then takes support?" I said, "That would be very good, that revenue, as the Attorney-General is but I would like to know what is in it. Certainly I aware, to deliver the services within the would like to know that we are not reinventing community. I know that in Kowanyama the the wheel." That is what I am saying. If we are council uses some of the revenue to provide to have all this talk of bipartisanship, then let services for children who may not be otherwise the Opposition be included in the process. Let getting the nutritional meals that they require. us not have these concerns that are raised So really at the end of the day it is a from time to time about a report which gives a matter of whether the $400,000 raised in a lot of hope and a lot of ideas but which the community has a disproportionate social Government does not seem to be able to cost—a cost more than $400,000. That is provide a concise way of responding to. That is something that communities themselves say. I a concern. have had some people say to me "We would Ms Spence: The problem is that you are love to close our canteen if we could have an not the shadow Minister for Aboriginal and alternative business venture. Maybe the Islander Affairs; Mr Lester is. I have sent a Government could help seed that." Others letter to him inviting him to get a briefing on have actually looked at establishing their own any issue at any time. So if you are not feeling alternative business options and certainly that you are involved, that is because you are some councils up there have declared not making the approaches to get briefings on themselves dry communities. I think that that is anything. one of the most significant things that we can Mr SPRINGBORG: That is true; the do. I would hope that if the Minister is so keen honourable member for Keppel is the shadow to provide these expeditious responses to the Minister. task force report, we will see in its next response something about the Government's Ms Spence: You are as welcome as he is approach to the canteen issue. to have briefings on any of these ideas. By and large, in absolute conclusion, the Mr SPRINGBORG: I have some Opposition does support the legislation but the significant interest in the area of Aboriginal Opposition will be very much monitoring it. The justice. That is how my interest started off in Opposition views this as trial legislation. I think here. We know that a lot of these matters are that, at the end of the day, extending this interwoven. But the real issue here is that legislation is taking us into a new criminal briefing the shadow Minister or briefing justice area and its effectiveness will have to somebody else is not going to necessarily be reviewed at some point of time. Obviously, determine the public response that a lot of if it has not worked, if we gain Government we people want. That is the point that the Minister will not be able to continue on with it. The is missing. Providing a briefing when the Government is probably in the same position; shadow Minister sits down with departmental if there are too many issues that cause officers and talks about various issues is not difficulty it will not continue with it, either. the public response and the commitment that However, if it has worked to a large extent and people want on issues. That is what I am requires modification, then we would do that. talking about. I think it is a point that the Minister needs to appreciate and understand. Dr PRENZLER (Lockyer—CCAQ) Let us look at the issue of canteens. The (4.19 p.m.): I rise to make my contribution to Boni Robertson committee made the point this debate on a Bill that will amend the about the canteens. I would be very much Penalties and Sentences Act 1992, the interested to hear where we are going to go Juvenile Justice Act 1992 and the Childrens with those. Historically there was a reason for Court Act 1992 to provide for the input of the establishment of those canteens. I community justice groups when Aboriginal and suppose those canteens provided some Torres Strait Islander offenders are sentenced. degree of regulation over the sale of alcohol City Country Alliance members certainly into those communities. We know all about the have some grave reservations about this 5 Oct 2000 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 3537 legislation, and we do so for many reasons. laws separate from the rest of our population. One of the reasons for our reservations is that We believe that this is highly divisive and will we are not sure how it is going to be applied never bridge the gap between Aboriginals and across the State. We do not see how it can be the remaining 98% of Australia's population. applied fairly across the State. We believe that This is the sort of legislation that continues to circumstances could be different in different widen the gap between Aboriginals and other areas. Australians. While our Parliaments continue to According to the Minister's second- implement this type of divisive legislation, any reading speech, the purpose of this Bill is to hope that we have of achieving meaningful get the courts to listen to Aboriginal and Torres reconciliation will remain just a hope. Strait Islander communities, to build bridges It is our understanding that the vast between these communities and the courts majority of Aboriginal Australians do not themselves. The Minister also went on to support this type of discrimination. We are in advise that the theme for the fifth annual constant consultation with an Aboriginal group Reconciliation Week was Corroboree 2000— who know only too well that it does not Sharing our Future and that the Council for progress the interests of their own people and, Aboriginal Reconciliation had made the in fact, has a very real potential to achieve following statement on reconciliation— quite the opposite. Such a group is the true "Reconciliation between Australia's representative of Aboriginal people just as we indigenous peoples and all other believe that the members of the City Country Australians is about building bridges. It is Alliance are the only true representatives of all about sharing our differences. It is about Australians. This group of caring and logical giving everybody a fair go. It is about thinking Aboriginal people believe strongly that building on the strengths of common ATSIC must be abolished in order to stop the ground." graft and corruption within that self-serving organisation that is bleeding badly needed We agree with this claim. We also agree with welfare funds away from people in genuine the council's vision for reconciliation expressed need and into the pockets of a few ATSIC as follows— commissioners and their cronies. That is not to "A united Australia which respects say that we believe that ATSIC should be this land of ours; values the Aboriginal abolished altogether. and Torres Islander heritage and provides We believe that ATSIC should be looked justice and equity for all." at more closely to see where those funds are If this is the vision of the Council for Aboriginal going. This is also the view of these particular Reconciliation, then we cannot understand the Aboriginals. They have some grave concerns purpose of this Bill, which we believe to be about ATSIC and what it does. This group of divisive, racially discriminatory legislation. The Aboriginals has done more to advance City Country Alliance objects to the Penalties genuine reconciliation than the few militant and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment activists who push this divisive legislative Bill 2000 because it is in direct discord with the agenda. These Aboriginal people do not want latter part of that declaration, "provides justice apologies and recriminations; they just want and equity for all". It is obvious to us that this Australia to move forward as a country and a legislation clearly does not provide justice and people united. equity for all as it applies only to the Aboriginal I will return to the Bill before the House. It and Torres Strait Islander people. Any is intended that submissions from the legislation that specifies a particular group or community justice group will give the courts race to the exclusion of others is obviously some insight into the reasons for the offending discriminatory and divisive. behaviour and relevant cultural and historical Justice and equity for all is an important issues. The community justice group can make principle that we, the City Country Alliance, are the court aware of local sentencing options proud to defend. How can reconciliation be and help the court understand local achieved when divisive legislation according to circumstances and the cultural background of race is continuously being prepared, especially the communities. It is also expected that the by the social engineering Government that we advice of the community justice groups will have here today, and passed? This is what the lead to more appropriate sentencing options City Country Alliance has maintained in this for offenders by allowing the ATSI community House since day one. We do not agree with a to take a greater role in addressing offending percentage of Australia's population having behaviour in a culturally appropriate way. It is separate services, a separate welfare system, also hoped that this legislation will reduce the separate land title rights and now sentencing incidence of incarceration as a sentencing 3538 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 option and give ATSI people an independent to go to the Gatji out-station where they lived voice in the administration of justice in their for some time and successfully overcame the communities. problems of alcohol. As a result, in his The Explanatory Notes state— judgment Chief Justice Martin said that the offender had accepted obligations, had been "One of the factors which has led to subject to discipline and, by doing so, had this amendment is the current over- assisted in restoring the peace. I ask: would representation of Aboriginal and Torres the same treatment apply if the intoxicated Strait Islander people in the criminal Aboriginal woman stabbed a white man? justice system, particularly in custody. Under this legislation, it appears so, because Members and especially Elders of this legislation is only for Aboriginal and Torres Aboriginal and Torres Islander Strait Islander offenders. But what if the communities have expressed concern offender is part Aboriginal and does not live that the custodial system has not broken within an Aboriginal community? What will the cycle of offending behaviour exhibited happen then? by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people." At this time it would be appropriate to highlight that if an intoxicated white man were One could properly argue that this applies to stab an Aboriginal male or female he would to many other offenders, not just Aboriginal be subject to the provisions of the Penalties and Torres Strait Islander offenders. There and Sentences Act 1992. Section 15 of the have been many cases of repeat offending by Penalties and Sentences Act 1992 deals with criminals who have been incarcerated and sentences and states— subsequently released. This is one of our reservations with this Bill. How is it going to "In imposing a sentence on an treat those repeat offenders? Does it mean offender, a court may receive any that we just change the laws to reduce the information, including a report mentioned number of criminals and repeat offenders in in the Corrective Services Act 1998, custody? I wonder how the general community section 201, that it considers appropriate would feel about that. But here we have to enable it to impose the proper legislation to do just that, but not to the benefit sentence." of all offenders in this country, only for the What we are saying is that that provision Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander offenders. already exists. It seems that the objectives of We have other races living in this great land of this amendment Bill are already served ours. We have Tongans, Vietnamese, Greeks, through this section, yet the Beattie Labor Germans, British—all sorts of races—yet all of Government considers it necessary to include a sudden we are singling out one particular provisions to segregate Aboriginal and Torres race. I have no doubt that some of those other Strait Islanders, making it easier for them to be ethnic communities have various ways of given a suspended sentence on the proviso of punishing their people, too, that would not receiving culturally appropriate punishment. quite suit our laws. I challenge the Attorney-General and So I ask the question: how does this Bill Minister for Justice, Mr Matt Foley, to table in provide justice and equity for all? If this the Parliament a full list of cases where any Government was truly committed to person or persons under the current addressing the concerns of the custodial sentencing regime of the Penalties and system and the rehabilitation of repeat Sentences Act 1992 was, for a serious assault Aboriginal offenders as identified in this involving a knife where bodily harm, grievous legislation, then it should show the same bodily harm, unlawful wounding, attempted commitment to the rest of Australia's murder or murder resulted from that assault, population. Every offender, regardless of race, given a suspended sentence with an option for colour or creed should have the same detoxification. entitlement, not just 2% of our population. If this amendment Bill is passed The Minister raised the case of an today—and there is no doubt that it will intoxicated Aboriginal wife who stabbed her be—can the Minister give the House the Aboriginal husband. He advised that the assurance that this option will be available to offender's community had settled the offence anyone who commits an act while in an in the traditional way. The Aboriginal wife, intoxicated state? We understand that under distressing conditions, was subjected to Aboriginals have a problem with alcohol. In the several meetings of clan groups to discuss the case of the lady mentioned a minute ago, circumstances of the offence and possible when they were moved to an out-station where resolutions. The husband and the wife decided alcohol was banned or not available, things 5 Oct 2000 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 3539 settled down and there appeared to be a account. It does not require the court to follow resolution. But what happens in cases when the course of action that may be they are put back into communities where recommended by the elders or the community alcohol is available? justice group. If this is so, it rides against what the This is part of a broader process. It is part communities as a whole have expressed, and of a broader process of reconciliation. It is part that is that involuntary intoxication should of a process of having our criminal justice never be an excuse for any act or omission system come to terms with the great challenge that results in the injury or death of another posed by its dealings with Aboriginal and person. This rides against the policies of the Islander people. Let me identify some of the CCA, because this is something that has been other aspects of this broader process. canvassed from the tip of Cape York to the bottom of Tasmania. Nobody believes that The past couple of years have seen the intoxication should be an excuse for any appointment of three indigenous magistrates, criminal act no matter what racial or cultural including recently the first Torres Strait Islander background the offender comes from. magistrate appointed to the Cairns Magistrates In conclusion, we have grave reservations Court. It is very important that no section of the about this legislation. We agree with the community should be excluded from the shadow Attorney-General, the member for bench or from senior positions of decision Warwick, Mr Springborg, that it would have making in the criminal justice process. For been better to have had a trial before any example, take the construction of new legislation was brought into the House, magistrates courts. I have been to namely, an appropriate trial to see how the Kowanyama, Bamaga and, just last week, to system works in those communities. We have Pormpuraaw. What we are trying to do there is no doubt that for minor offences sometimes sit down with Aboriginal and Islander people to banishment and shaming of the offender talk with them about what they want to do and could in many cases have the right effect. We give them a chance to have a say. For too believe that could be true for the rest of the long in the past we just plonked down a community also. The reason we have grave courthouse wherever the Government of the reservations about this legislation is that we day wanted it. However, what we have to do is cannot see how it will work effectively across talk and listen. Nowadays we have the benefit the State. We believe this is catered for of much better transport and communication already under the law. We will be watching with facilities than were available in previous days. great interest to see how this goes in the We should take advantage of that. future. Just last Friday I flew up to the small Hon. M. J. FOLEY (Yeronga—ALP) community of Pormpuraaw, on the west of (Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and Cape York, to talk with them about the new Minister for The Arts) (4.33 p.m.), in reply: I magistrates court for which provision is made thank honourable members for their in the Budget. I wanted to talk to them about contributions to the debate on this very what they wanted and how it related to their important Bill. This is about equality before the justice needs. They indicated that they wanted law. Let me reassure the honourable member support for their community justice program; for Lockyer and the honourable member for that they wanted it to be called not a Warwick that the principle of equality before courthouse but a community justice centre the law is a fundamental principle. It is one to which could be used by the community justice which this Government is committed. We program. I was very happy to agree to their believe that these provisions will assist in request. I attended in the company of a judge achieving the goal of equality before the law. of the District Court, Judge Sarah Bradley, the They will also assist in achieving the goal of Senior Stipendiary Magistrate, Mr Brian Hine, justice. I think it was Lord Denning who and the Supervising Magistrate for Cairns, Mr referred to the twin goals of the law as being to Ken Lynn, together with the architect from the achieve certainty and to achieve justice. Department of Public Works, the project Sometimes those two goals appear to conflict manager from my department, and the public with each other. This is about trying to ensure art officer from the Public Art Agency. The that the courts have the best possible project involves 2% of the capital cost being information at the time that they come to committed for indigenous artwork from the sentence an offender. Accordingly, the local community. It was a very fruitful meeting legislation makes provision for input from and it reflects the spirit of what we are trying to Aboriginal community justice groups and it do here. We get the best results in the justice requires the courts to take that information into system if we sit down and talk with people. 3540 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

What this legislation does is The honourable member referred to a commonsense. It is doing exactly what judges conversation with an elder who had urged the and magistrates are doing to a greater or honourable member to oppose the legislation lesser extent throughout the State, namely, as it could tend to cause conflict in the listening to the input from elders. There was a communities. Let me deal with that. There are theme in the contribution of the member for safeguards in the Act in relation to conflicts of Lockyer that somehow this input would lean interest. Training will be conducted by the always towards leniency. Let me explain to the Department of Aboriginal and Torres Strait honourable member and to all members of the Islander Policy and Development. It is open to House that the input from the indigenous the defendant to make submissions to the community, far from being always on the side court in relation to any possible conflict. The of leniency, may well often be quite stern. I court already deals with any possible conflict, see the honourable member for Warwick for example, when character references or nodding his head in agreement. This is not victim impact statements are given, and there about leniency—far from it. This is about giving are adequate safeguards in place. We have people a say and making sure that we seen in the debate on the previous legislation encourage that dialogue between the courts that the flexibility has been retained for the and the traditional elders. The great Mabo court in the sentencing process. Indeed, that case and the great Wik case led to great legislation that we passed just a few minutes breakthroughs in the principles of the law. ago ensured that the court had that flexibility. What we must do is ensure that there is a The honourable member asked me to dialogue. We must do what we can to ensure give an assurance that serious offenders that Aboriginal and Islander people are given a would not escape jail. I happily give that say in the day-to-day decision making of the assurance. People who break the law and who criminal justice system. commit very serious offences must expect to go to jail. This is not about soft options. This is We have taken an initiative through Legal about making the system just. Justice can be Aid, which is in the order of about a quarter of an awful and a fierce thing. This is not about a million dollars recurrent, to provide for an being soft—far from it. It is about being firm. It indigenous legal aid strategy to reach out to is about the system of justice working. Anyone the victims of crime, in particular, indigenous who thinks that business as usual is good women and children in remote communities. enough in those remote Aboriginal and We have seen in recent days an apology Islander communities are kidding themselves. I given on behalf of the Magistrates Court—a thank the honourable member for Warwick for very courageous step, a step that not his concurrence. Business as usual is not good everybody agreed with. But I salute their enough. We have to do better. We have to try courage. I think it was a genuine attempt to to do better. This legislation is an attempt to say sorry, to reach out but, most importantly, do just that. to build a better future. As I mentioned earlier, the initiative that I thank the honourable member for has been taken by the Office of the Director of Warwick for his contribution. Let me deal with a Public Prosecutions which I have just couple of the points that he raised. The announced today involves a six-month pilot honourable member expressed his preference program in the Cape York indigenous to a see a trial. I understand his caution. Let communities of Kowanyama, Bamaga and me reassure the honourable member in a Aurukun. I received a letter a few weeks ago couple of areas. This practice is already from a group called the Indigenous Family working well in such places as Kowanyama Violence Action Group. Members of that group and Palm Island where District Court judges expressed concern about delays. They and magistrates do seek the views of expressed concern about the problem of an indigenous people. Training has been offender and victim having to travel together in conducted by the Department of Aboriginal the same aircraft to go to court. I was and Torres Strait Islander Policy and concerned about the matters that they raised. Development to assist in that regard. The point I spoke with them. is simply this: there has been effectively a trial When I visited Cairns on Friday, I took of this approach. There has been benefit with me the Deputy Director of Public obtained in practice on the ground in a very Prosecutions and a senior officer of my helpful way. Clearly all legislation has to be department. We met there with Legal Aid, monitored, but I welcome the positive Tharpuntoo Legal Service. We sat down with approach shown by the honourable member representatives of the Cairns Sexual Assault and by the Opposition in this regard. Service, Legal Aid as well as the Indigenous 5 Oct 2000 Penalties and Sentences and Other Acts Amendment Bill 3541

Family Violence Action Group itself. The one locations. Courts visit remote communities thing that they all agreed on was the need to sometimes on a fly in, fly out basis and cannot work together. That is a very important theme. be expected to understand those cultural Far too often in the criminal justice system issues which are an integral part of ensuring each agency beavers away at its own task and justice and equity for indigenous people. We nobody brings them together. We need to try need to encourage the courts to talk more with to do that. the communities so that the communities can I take the opportunity to commend the have their say. That is what this legislation is collaborative approach taken in implementing about. The courts have broad powers to take this project. It is designed to fast-track those into account a wide range of matters in the matters in which an offender intends to plead exercise of the discretion for sentencing and guilty and may proceed by way of ex officio this will, I hope, contribute to the process of indictment, thereby saving the time and delay the court being properly and fully informed. of a committal hearing. There need to be I pay tribute to many of those Aboriginal strong safeguards in there. That is why it has and Islander leaders in the communities who to involve the defence. The Tharpuntoo Legal have applied themselves to undertake the Service and Legal Aid have been consulted. necessary training to become justices of the peace (Magistrates Court). The need for such a project emerged from the recognition by representatives of the Mr Wells: Hear, hear! victims, the offenders and the prosecution that Mr FOLEY: I note the support of the the effective delays in the criminal justice Education Minister, the Honourable Dean system impact more acutely on persons living Wells, a former Attorney-General. I in smaller communities where the level of congratulate him on his initiative in contact between the parties is much greater commencing training in that area. It is very than a larger city-based population. important that we salute those people Honourable members should just imagine how because in difficult circumstances they play a it would be if they were on a remote leadership role. We should recognise that and community and the person who had been the give them the support and encouragement victim of a serious assault or a sexual offence that they deserve. had to, as it were, come into close contact with The honourable member for Warwick an offender. It is very important that the matter touched on the issue of Aboriginal customary be dealt with and disposed of. law. This legislation, it is true, will help the court That project will allow at the time of arrest to inform itself about matters of Aboriginal and for the relevant police report setting out the Islander custom. There is much more work to salient allegations to be forwarded with the be done in this area. This is far from being the statements of complainants and any medical last or final step. There is a great deal of work statements from the communities directly to to do. What we need to do is try to work hand the Office of the Director of Public in hand with Aboriginal and Islander people to Prosecutions. Therefore, the pilot program will keep the dialogue going to assist the courts to allow for direct liaison involving offences such engage in dialogue with Aboriginal and as sexual or serious assault, rape, incest, Islander communities, because out of such grievous bodily harm or attempted murder. dialogue there can come only a better The aim of the pilot would be to identify by approach. agreement between defence and the Office of That is not to say that the dialogue will the Director of Public Prosecutions pleas of always be easy. It will not. There are very guilty in such matters with a view to bypassing difficult issues to confront. However, I believe lengthy delays in the Magistrates Court. I this legislation will be of considerable benefit to thank all of those agencies that have been ensure that Aboriginal and Islander people can involved. Let us see if we can make it work. have a say and to ensure that there is a formal Let me just turn back to the criticism statutory authority to enable the courts to take made by the member for Lockyer, who into account relevant submissions and suggested that somehow this was information from elders and from the discriminatory legislation. It is legislation community justice group. designed to enhance equality before the law. It has been some 26 and a half years It is certainly not discriminatory. It is imperative since I first started work at the Aboriginal Legal that the courts be made aware of cultural and Service. Over that period of more than a community issues which are in existence in quarter of a century I have seen some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander progress in the way the law relates to communities, particularly those in remote Aboriginal and Islander people. I am still 3542 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 mindful of the fact, though, that our prisons Code which are of specific concern to women. are choked with numbers of Aboriginal and I suppose that is fair enough. A lot of people Islander people who are grossly say to me that there are many issues in the overrepresented. There are many causes for Criminal Code and the justice system which that. There is much to be done in the are very much generic. I have even had economic sphere, in partnership through the women say to me that if we fix it for one we Cape York partnership plan, in education, in should fix it for the other, and there are issues. health and so on. In this area of justice, there I recently mentioned the situation of is absolutely no room for complacency. We people travelling in aircraft from remote must do all we can to ensure that these Aboriginal communities to Cairns for court problems are addressed. I hope this legislation appearances. Victims are made to sit in the is a positive step towards addressing those same aircraft as offenders. Those sorts of issues. I commend the Bill to the House. issues are of significant concern. We Motion agreed to. understand that these are not easy issues to address when looking at the costs involved, the irregularity of air services and distance. Committee However, in circumstances such as these we Clauses 1 to 8, as read, agreed to. have to think somewhat innovatively and Bill reported, without amendment. outside the square. We need to use our existing resources on the ground, in the magistrates courts in those areas and to use Third Reading available technology, thanks to recent Bill, on motion of Mr Foley, by leave, read amendments to Acts of Parliament. For a third time. example, there is the capacity to use more and more audiovisual technology to address certain matters before the justice system. Title If matters of consideration before courts Hon. M. J. FOLEY (Yeronga—ALP) which see remote people being disadvantaged (Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and are not facilitated by such legislation, it Minister for The Arts) (4.53 p.m.): I thank the behoves this Parliament to look at further ways officers of my department for their very hard of amending legislation to address these work on this. I move— concerns I have outlined to the Attorney- "That the title of the Bill be agreed General and the House. I have also heard of to." cases where, because of lack of space, the witness had to stand in the same room in the Motion agreed to. courthouse as the accused. Some of these issues are equal to or far more important than CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL other issues we may address of a technical nature in the law. Whilst it is good to spell out Second Reading and clarify the issues we are debating today, Resumed from 7 September (see through their own conventions and procedures p. 3102). the courts have tried to provide some Mr SPRINGBORG (Warwick—NPA) protections. However, where they have not, (Deputy Leader of the Opposition) (4.53 p.m.): there is a need for us to legislate for such The coalition in general supports the Criminal protections in the Parliament. Law Amendment Bill. In the course of my I turn now to the amendment to the Bail contribution, I would appreciate the comments Act. It is an extremely interesting amendment, of the Attorney-General on a couple of issues. and I must admit that I am confused about the I may even ask a couple of questions in the motivation for it. However, it seeks to provide a Committee stage of the debate, because I will mechanism to allow the police or a court to admit that there are a couple of areas I am release without bail a person who has or unclear about. Sometimes the wording of Bills appears to have an intellectual impairment. can be highly technical and needs to be read The person may be permitted to go at large or in conjunction with other complementary Acts may be released into the care of another of Parliament. person who ordinarily has the care of the The legislation seeks to update many person or with whom the person resides. The provisions of the Criminal Code, the Bail Act release is conditional on the person and so on. The Government has made much surrendering into the custody of the court over time of the establishment of the women's before which the person is required to appear task force to look at issues in the Criminal on the charge. 5 Oct 2000 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 3543

It begs the question: if a person who has No definable benefit whatsoever to such an impairment has an incapacity to be women comes out of this procedure. It is a able to understand the concepts and the dreadful operation. It is something that is notions of bail, should that person be caught conducted traditionally without any form of up in the criminal justice system? I suggest for anaesthetic and in very unclean the Minister's advice whether or not it would be environments—in septic environments—and better for that person to be dealt with under the risks of infection and of death can be quite the Mental Health Act and its provisions. If extreme. Basically, the procedure seeks to there is some criminality involved and they do ensure that a young girl is, at some future not understand the basic concepts of bail and time, when she is married, absolutely a token what is expected of them, are they in a of her husband. As I understand it, it is all position to be successfully prosecuted through about reducing her opportunity to participate in our criminal justice system? sexual satisfaction and increasing that of her Mr Foley: A fair point. husband. I think that is absolutely dreadful and something that it is right for us to legislate in Mr SPRINGBORG: That is a reasonable this Parliament to ensure does not happen. contention to put to the Parliament, and I would be very pleased to hear the Minister's The protections in the legislation seek to answer. I return to the issue of the person who ensure that people will not be unduly or is to be released into the custody of the court unfairly prosecuted. An issue raised with me is but looked after by a person on the outside. that if a child is taken interstate and female As I understand it, no punishment is to be genital mutilation occurs there the legislation imposed on them whilst in the care of the deems that the child has been taken for the person to whom they have been released. purposes of female genital mutilation. That does not provide a deterrent to anyone. I However, I think there are some protections want to hear the motivation behind that that address the concerns outlined and the provision, because I am concerned about real issues raised by the Scrutiny of Legislation conflicts as to what is being achieved by Committee. amending the Bail Act. Another provision in the legislation is that Some of the other provisions of the consent to carnal knowledge must be freely legislation have grown out of and voluntarily given. It has been raised with recommendations made by the women's task me that that is probably a tautology. I would force on the Criminal Code. There are a couple like the Minister to explain what it actually of recommendations I commend, but there are means. If the Minister does not refer to this in others I express a subtle general reservation his speech in reply to the second-reading about. Certainly the issue of female genital debate I will probably raise it in the debate on mutilation has been well publicised over the the clauses. past decade or so as something that revolts Most people would feel that voluntary most, if not all, decent Australians. It may be consent is the real issue. If we start talking culturally acceptable throughout certain African about free and voluntary consent, we need to and maybe even Middle Eastern countries, but determine what we are trying to actually it is something that offends the basic address. What is the draftsman really decencies and standards of Australians, I think suggesting? What is he hoping to achieve? for good reason. Will we have two standards—the first being I think it is fair to say that this has not that a person may have voluntarily given been a big issue in Queensland. I am not sure consent and the second being that the how many cases of young girls who have consent may not be considered to have been become infected as a consequence of these freely given but perhaps given under duress? I dreadful backyard operations have presented would like the Attorney-General to address that themselves to our hospitals. Just how many matter in his reply to the debate. have undergone the procedure without mishap Another issue in the legislation relates to so far as infection is concerned we will never restrictions on the ability of an accused to raise really know because of cultural acceptance in in court details of a previous sexual our society. So it is difficult to assess the real relationship with the person who is accusing numbers in our community. It has been him. I will use the term "him", because that is reported that there are some people in New the way things basically unfold. It is usually an South Wales who conduct this sort of cultural allegation by a female against a male. This is practice on young girls. Quite frankly, it offends an issue that has been raised with me. I my standards and the standards of most understand that there has been some Australians. significant extension of the limitations which 3544 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 exist with regard to disclosure of the previous doubt. We need to be sure that, when sexual conduct of the accuser and with regard removing provisions that currently exist in the to the sexual liaison that may have happened law—procedural fairness, natural justice or between the accused and the accuser. The whatever the case may be—we provide accused may still raise the issue in the court, options to the accused person which are equal but only with the agreement of the court. to or better than those which previously It has been the case in the past that existed. That is where the issue of legal costs some people who have made complaints have and legal aid comes into it. This, no doubt, as probably been unduly pursued on these issues the Attorney-General pointed out in the in court. In most cases the courts have Explanatory Notes which accompany this probably acted responsibly in limiting undue, legislation, will apportion some costs to Legal unreasonable or insensitive cross-examination, Aid. but I am on the public record as indicating that If we are going to take these steps we I have very little tolerance for those who have need to ensure that this issue is properly been convicted of crimes. I believe they should worked through and that the appropriate have the book thrown at them and that we mechanisms are put in place. I understand should get tougher once a person has actually that this is not going to apply in matters that been convicted. I think we need to make sure, are going to be decided before a magistrate. though, that the protective mechanisms in Certainly, once it goes beyond that stage this place in our criminal justice system that ensure issue will apply. an accused gets a free and fair trial and is able The Attorney-General and I recently had to maximise his defence—not unfairly, not some argy-bargy, much to the Attorney- unduly and not unreasonably—are not General's significant annoyance and unnecessarily or unreasonably dismantled. At discomfort, over the issue of Internet images. I the end of the day, we need to ensure that looked at the legislation before the Parliament important issues are able to be raised during and found that the legislation seeks to clarify court hearings, particularly if they will ensure the issue of what is able to be transmitted that an innocent person is not convicted. I electronically. I suppose it takes information would like to have some assurances on that technology into consideration. matter. I had raised what I felt was a very real I raise the matter of unrepresented concern, namely, that there was a significant accuseds. Issues have been raised in the past disparity in the law between the Criminal Code about some rather vociferous counsel who get and the Classification of Publications Act in this stuck into child witnesses and about people State. On the one hand, one could publicly making complaints against accusers in our display certain traditional images—not courts. A person accused of committing a electronic images—and one could be crime—in many cases the crime is of a sexual sentenced to seven years' imprisonment. nature—who is unrepresented has the right to Under the Classification of Publications Act the stand in the court and to cross-examine the maximum sentence was some two years' jail. I person they are accused of offending against. felt that there was a very significant disparity in Whilst I can never really appreciate the the legislation and that it needed to be feelings the victim would go through in this addressed. instance—there would be a lot of trauma and unease involved—it is up to us to try to It appears to me that some of the issues I address that particular issue. I think it is had raised are now dealt with in this reasonable to move to ensure that Bill—namely clause 228, for example. The unrepresented accused are not able to cross- legislation seems to take into consideration the examine those who are allegedly victims of use of modern technology to distribute and their behaviour. In the case of rape and other generate these images. I am wondering if that sexual assault, that is something which is of might be a concession that there was an issue paramount importance. which needed to be addressed in some way by amending legislation in this Parliament. This matter is not without some difficulties, as the Attorney-General pointed out in his I am not going to be overly vociferous on presentation to Parliament. That is, it raises this, but I suggest that there has probably the issue of procedural fairness in our courts. been a degree of consideration given to the We need to ensure that people are able to be issues I raised. Those issues may have been properly represented and to have their issues coincidentally addressed in the legislation put. As I said earlier, we need to ensure that which is now before the Parliament. everyone convicted of a crime in Queensland I believe the issue of alternative verdicts in has been proven guilty beyond reasonable cases of rape and incest is a sensible reform. I 5 Oct 2000 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 3545 am not going to canvass all the issues, but Appeal heard certain evidence and the woman there are many matters which have been was granted a new trial. On the second addressed and updated in this legislation. I occasion I believe she was charged with believe that most of them are very sensible. A manslaughter. Evidence was given that the number of provisions have been removed from person who was killed had been abusing the the Criminal Code. These provisions no longer lady and was not necessarily of good have standing in today's criminal law. I believe character. The lady involved loved the it behoves any Government to ensure that our deceased. It emerged that it was inadmissible Acts of Parliament are relevant and up to date. that the person involved had been subjected The issue of sexual offences against girls to significant violence and had actually gone to under the age of 16 years has been altered to the police and sought protection. The read "children under the age of 16 years". We protection was not forthcoming. The approach are seeking to provide non-gender specific was made to the police, but the fellow was definitions, and that is sensible. shot the next day. That hearsay evidence would have been fairly important in the court. I suppose it is necessary in this day and age to consider questions of surgical I do not know whether the hearsay reconstruction. People do have surgical provisions address that type of issue, but I reconstruction of their genitalia in order to believe there is a very strong argument for the make males females and females males. I admission of hearsay evidence in our courts, think this is a very interesting contention in law. because it could be important in ensuring that We could potentially have people prosecuted we have a just outcome not only for the victim for the offence of rape where the offender but for the accused as well. I would like to hear could have been born a female and have a what the Attorney-General proposes by way of birth certificate which says that the offender is the hearsay provisions. It is not possible to a female, but in the meantime the person has completely describe the motivating factors gained a surgically constructed penis. Whilst behind these sorts of things. I would those sorts of issues can be handled in law, I appreciate it if the Attorney-General would believe they will be of—I will not say offer his views to the Parliament. amusement—interest in our courts. We need There are many other provisions in the to ensure that our legislation is up to date in legislation which update the law to ensure that order to address such issues. I think we will today's law is relevant. I welcome that. leave that one alone. However, as I said, the coalition has a couple I come now to the question of hearsay. I of concerns. Those concerns address commend the Attorney-General for including in mechanisms which have been traditionally this Bill a provision which allows for the available to an accused person in order to consideration of hearsay evidence in court. I allow him to put up a defence in court. It may have not spoken with the Attorney-General or be that the alternative mechanisms contained his officers about the motivating factor for the in this legislation seek to address the inclusion of this provision, but in the time that I coalition's concerns. Nevertheless, the coalition have been shadow Attorney-General a will be monitoring the provisions of this number of people who have come to me have legislation. We will be looking at any issues expressed concern that matters which were that arise further down the track. very important to them were not admissible in a criminal trial because they were considered Ms STRUTHERS (Archerfield—ALP) to be hearsay. On hearing the evidence which (5.19 p.m.): I have known the Attorney- was in the possession of these people it General, the Honourable Matt Foley, for appeared to me that it was a vital element in almost 20 years. I had the benefit of his legal the prosecution of the alleged offender. In wisdom and dedication to social justice when some cases it could have assisted in clarifying he was my esteemed lecturer in social work the reputation of the person who was not able and the law. His commitment to social justice to be in court to defend himself, either continues to shine through in this Bill and it is because he was dead, or because he was my pleasure to support its introduction. traumatised or disabled by the crime. In his second-reading speech, the I recall a case in north Queensland. I will Minister acknowledged that, despite having not mention the details of the case, but I am Themis, the Greek Goddess of Justice, as the sure that the Attorney-General is aware of it. In symbol of justice from our ancient past, we that case, a woman was accused of murdering have developed a male-dominated system her de facto husband. In the first instance, she that has not responded adequately to the was found guilty of murder. The Court of needs and rights of women. 3546 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

In a past working life, I spent many years traumatise a witness and is therefore prepared supporting victims of family violence. I was to create a new scheme in the Evidence Act disturbed at the extent to which women were 1977 to prohibit an unrepresented accused being blamed for the violence being from cross-examining in person children, perpetrated against them. "She deserved it", people with an intellectual impairment and "She's a nagging bitch", "She asked for it", victims of sexual or violent crime. "She's a whore", are expressions that I have Further changes will prevent unnecessary commonly heard in justification of male and irrelevant attacks on the character of a violence against women. witness. Proposed changes to the Criminal I can remember going to secondary Law Sexual Offences Act 1978 will also schools in Brisbane to conduct a survey on acknowledge that just because a person has attitudes to sexual violence. Most of the young engaged in consensual sex at other times, people whom I interviewed for the survey, both that does not mean that that person is more girls and boys, were aged around 16 years. I likely to have consented to sex in the alleged was astounded at the attitude held by young offence. Far too many women have endured people to sexual violence. One of the undignified questioning, humiliation and questions was as follows, "Is it okay for a boy duress as witnesses before the court. This has to hold a girl down and force her to have sex; included young children and females, who are firstly, if she has been drinking; secondly, if she particularly at risk of sexual offences. They has had sex before; and thirdly, if she has let have felt as though they were in fact on trial. him touch her above the waist?" 20% to 30% They felt as though they were being treated as of boys said yes. They, in fact, were thereby the guilty person, not the accused. This largely condoning non-consensual sex—that is, rape. explains why around 70% of sexual assault When it was put to them that that was rape, victims fail to report their attack. they actually said, "Oh, no, no, I don't support it then." They did not understand that forcing a Another very disturbing fact is that most girl to have sex in that sort of context sexual offences are committed against female constituted a criminal offence. I think that that children aged between 10 and 14 years and is part of the problem we have had for many that 83% of sexual assault offenders are years—we have seen this as a pattern of known to the victim. There are, on average, behaviour that, in many people's eyes, has 1.7 recorded sexual assaults per hour across been acceptable or part of the course of Australia. relating. In order to nail offenders and to prevent I found that the boys in private schools in the widespread sexual violations that we Brisbane were the most disturbing, and we witness in our so-called civil society, the legal had a number of follow-up meetings with process must be accessible and fair to the parents and others following the study to try to victims of crime and fair but firm on offenders. deal with these attitudes. There have been Offenders must feel the full force of the law. significant improvements, though, in recent There are many important initiatives that the years. This study was done about seven or Minister has incorporated into this Bill. I do not eight years ago. There certainly have been intend to cover any of those comprehensively improvements through public awareness today. I support the Bill. I think it is campaigns, legal education and legal reform groundbreaking territory that the Minister has that has occurred in recent years. been moving into, and I commend him for that. The positive change is largely due to the courage of women survivors of violence who I would, however, like to raise a sensitive have spoken out, women activists, legal but very important matter dealt with by the advocates and support workers. I pay tribute to Task Force on Women and the Criminal Code. the tireless efforts of these people, including That is the matter of termination of pregnancy. the members of the Task Force on Women The task force recommended the repeal of and the Criminal Code, whose work has been sections 224, 225 and 226 of the Criminal instrumental in the formulation of the Code to remove abortion from the Criminal provisions within this Bill. Code. The task force acknowledged the dilemma inherent in valuing human life on one Mr Foley: Hear, hear! hand and, on the other hand, women's health Ms STRUTHERS: I say "Hear, hear!" to and human rights considerations underpinning that as well. I am particularly heartened to the issue of abortion. The Government has not know that our Government supports the task endorsed the recommendation, but I believe force view that an accused person does not that in the not-too-distant future our have the right to harass, intimidate or community and we as legislators must take 5 Oct 2000 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 3547 action to decriminalise the termination of also about balancing the rights of those pregnancy. Approximately one in three accused of a crime with the rights of those who Australian women will have a termination of are the victims of the crime and of witnesses pregnancy during her lifetime. generally. We could not agree more with that Community attitude polls are indicating statement. While we in the City Country very strong support for decriminalisation. In Alliance are very aware of the need to 1995 a survey conducted by the Courier-Mail maintain the presumption of innocence in our indicated that two-thirds of Queenslanders courts, we believe that for far too long the wanted abortion decriminalised, and in an rights of the accused and, more particularly, Anderson McNair poll 81% of participants the rights of those found guilty of offences supported a woman's right to have an have taken precedence over the rights of all abortion. By raising this issue I do not want to others. It has always been unacceptable to us take anything away from the courageous steps that those who are victims of crimes involving the Minister has taken to remove the gender violence, sexual assault and rape in particular bias from our legal system. To the contrary, I have been largely unprotected by the courts acknowledge that his efforts have been and by the legal system generally. outstanding. I simply wish to say that we We in no way wish to reduce an accused cannot rest on our laurels. There are still person's ability to defend themselves against prevailing community attitudes and areas of whatever charges have been laid, and we our criminal justice system that hinder women, certainly do acknowledge the right of the children and vulnerable members of our accused to face his accuser on the day. community from getting a fair go. However, this must be done in a way that Mr FELDMAN (Caboolture—CCAQ) minimises the harm to the victim or an (5.25 p.m.): I rise today to address the Criminal innocent witness who has necessarily been Law Amendment Bill 2000 and acknowledge exposed to our adversarial court system. this Government's attempt to ensure that the We agree that an accused does not have criminal justice system is fair to all the right to harass, intimidate and traumatise a Queenslanders. It is interesting to note that witness. Speaking as a police officer, I have the debate on this Bill has been preceded by been harassed, intimidated and traumatised the debate on the Penalties and Sentences by some of the best counsel around and I and Other Acts Amendment Bill. Our position know how it feels. I say that as somewhat of a in relation to the penalties and sentences Bill professional witness rather than someone who was that it was discriminatory, divisive and just comes in to give evidence in a courtroom would simply not work. We feel that we will for the first time who is facing that sort of probably see that come out in the long term. It clinical yet very intimidating atmosphere of a will, however, drive a bigger wedge between courtroom. black and white Australians while doing The proposed amendments to the nothing to solve the problems which divide us Evidence Act to prohibit an accused person as a nation. from cross-examining in person children, On the other hand, this Bill, which seeks people with an intellectual impairment and to change the way certain people are treated victims of sexual or violent crime are, in our in the court process, sets out to treat people view, a long overdue change. However, we do equally. In other words, if someone is in need have some concerns about the mechanism of that special consideration by the court, then involved in achieving this end. they will be given that consideration regardless As the Scrutiny of Legislation Committee of their race, the pigmentation of their skin or points out, any accused has the right to any other irrelevant criteria. represent themselves at a committal trial and a We in the City Country Alliance have, as particular obligation is cast upon a trial judge to one of our core policies, support for the victims ensure that in those circumstances the of crime rather than the perpetrator, the unrepresented accused receives a fair trial. implementation of truth in sentencing and the The right to confront one's accuser and to provision of adequate resources to curb cross-examine them at trial is a fundamental antisocial behaviour and provide a safe, right presently available to any unrepresented secure and peaceful society. Further, we accused. As the Explanatory Notes confirm our commitment to ensuring that the accompanying the Bill state, the mechanism in rule of law is certain, equitable and this Bill balances the removal of that right by maintained. inviting the accused to obtain legal The Minister in his second-reading speech representation for that purpose and, if rightly points out that the reform process is declined, the court must order legal assistance 3548 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 for the limited purpose of cross-examination of counsel, led up the garden path, and that protected witness. sometimes misled up the garden path in order It would seem to us that when that to arrive at a defendable position for an situation arises and if the accused wishes for accused. whatever reason to represent himself and Unfortunately, it has been the experience refuses or is unable to arrange legal of many that some judges and magistrates representation for the purposes of cross- have been rather less than vigilant in their examining a protected witness, then it is highly invocation of the discretionary powers that they likely that upon conviction they would appeal have currently. Who can forget the image of a on the grounds that the legal counsel provided small girl being torn apart on a witness stand to them was inadequate to do the job. It is by an overzealous defence counsel while the here that I wish to address that concern to the presiding judge sat on his hands and let it Attorney-General. Surely a person who has happen? It is our contention that judges have had legal counsel provided to them who then not sufficiently fulfilled their responsibility to goes through the appeal process and says innocent victims and witnesses and it is now that the counsel who was provided was totally time that the rights of these innocents are set inadequate and did not represent them as in legislative concrete. they sought fit will bog down an already overloaded Appeal Court. Surely that is just The further amendments proposed to the giving a person another avenue through which Evidence Act will increase a judge's they could create havoc within the legal discretionary power to protect witnesses from system and ensure that the system really is inappropriate questioning in regard to credit or bogged right down. In fact, he may even be where the question is misleading, confusing, successful. Perhaps he may consider that annoying, harassing, intimidating, offensive, somebody of the calibre of Adrian Gundelach oppressive or repetitive, or inappropriate would be the only person suitable to defend language is used. The court in this situation is him and to do the job adequately for him, yet charged with taking into account the mental, he was not provided with someone of that intellectual and physical impairments of the gentleman's calibre as counsel. witness as well as the age, education, cultural background, or any relationship that person In light of the comments by the Scrutiny perhaps has to any party in the proceedings. of Legislation Committee on the subject that "because the protected witness will usually be We feel strongly that it is important that a crucial witness in the trial it may in some those charged with both the dispensation of cases be a very difficult task, even for an justice and the protection of vulnerable experienced counsel, to cross-examine unless witnesses in the courtrooms proactively control that counsel is also present during the rest of the conduct of their courts. It is noted that this the Crown case including the Crown opening", Bill acknowledges that just because an I ask the Minister to enlighten the House in his individual has engaged in prior consensual reply as to his strategy for dealing with this sexual activity on another occasion or on other type of likely occurrence. occasions, it does not mean that the person is more likely to have consented to the conduct The Scrutiny of Legislation Committee at issue or is less worthy of belief as a witness. questions the need to remove the right in We believe that this amendment will advance relation to such a broad class of witness where the course of justice. I heard the speech made there is already a wide power at common law by the honourable member for Archerfield. On to control the questioning of a witness. The hearing the comments that she made at the Queensland Law Reform Commission has beginning of her speech, I am certainly glad observed— that I went to a State school rather than a "It is not intended to imply that, in the private school. absence of an express legislative The amendment to section 31 of the provision, a court has no power to control Criminal Offence Victims Act, which redefines the manner in which witnesses are cross- the defence of duress, goes some way examined; it clearly has. It is part of the towards addressing the situation where people everyday role of judges and magistrates have acted in self-defence in reaction to a real to ensure that witnesses are not confused or a perceived threat, such as a home or misled by questioning in the course of invasion, and have suddenly found cross-examination and that the cross- themselves the victim fighting for their liberty in examination is conducted fairly." court. Unfortunately, the existing limitations on Yet that was never my experience as a police this defence, which make it unavailable for officer: you were always confused by legal charges of grievous bodily harm or murder, will 5 Oct 2000 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 3549 remain. We do not see why a person this Bill, but those are the subjects that I defending themselves or their family inside wished to address. I ask the Minister to give their own home should not be able to claim clarification with respect to court proceedings in duress as a defence for their actions. his reply. On that note, we will be giving our I will now address the distasteful subject support to this Bill. We support the changes of intentional female genital mutilation. While that have been made. We congratulate the acknowledging that we live in a society that Minister on making those changes and has a vast array of differing cultural and ethnic effecting things that perhaps needed to be backgrounds, I am still shocked that in this day addressed for a long time under the code. and age there are still people who would Mrs LIZ CUNNINGHAM (Gladstone—IND) voluntarily inflict such inhumane and degrading (5.39 p.m.): In rising to support this Bill, I also mutilation on a member of their own family wish to commend the Minister for the changes and, indeed, in many cases, their own that have been made. It is a sad indictment on daughter. A man or a woman who would our society that some of the changes are intentionally mutilate a young woman with the necessary, but it is also a reflection of the premeditated intention of making that person reality of the world in which we live. I incapable of participating in a sexual act particularly wish to mention a couple of the without great pain solely to fulfil some ancient sections that are being changed. ritual or custom should in my opinion be The definition of "carnal knowledge" will subject to the same painful mutilation himself be changed to apply to children and not just or herself. girls. Again, as I said in my opening comment, We have heard that perhaps this is not as it is a sad reflection on our time that any much a religious procedure as a cultural children are at risk. It has always historically procedure by people who come from areas been girls who have been at risk in these around the Horn of Africa. The defence of that areas in a home in particular, but again it is a practice on religious grounds is not one that reflection of where society is heading that it they can take with great heart. However, we now has to apply not only to young girls in our certainly believe that if people are going to live families but also may apply to young boys. according to the old customs, the old ways, or Although the incidence against young boys is indeed the Old Testament, perhaps they less, it certainly occurs. We sometimes read should be punished in those old ways: an eye stories in the paper and wonder just how these for an eye. My only criticism of this people can perpetrate such harm. amendment is that perhaps it does not go far I commend the Minister for including enough. Fourteen years is perhaps simply not prohibitions on the transmission of indecent long enough for such people, but I guess that publications. I know that there is a split belief goes for all sorts of people who degrade, who about the impact of what people see and hear humiliate and who are capable of carrying out in the media and on the Internet as far as such low-life acts. It is unfortunate that we provocation to act wrongly, and in this case in happen to share the planet with such people. a wrong sexual manner. However, I have no It is also pleasing to see that the sections qualms in my mind about the fact that of the Criminal Code dealing with sexual publications, violent and sexually explicit offences have been overhauled to bring them movies do have an effect on people who are into line with modern attitudes and practices. It susceptible in that area. And there has been a is particularly pleasing to note that the offence number of books written by sexual perverts of carnal knowledge has been broadened to who have actually listed the times and types of include children of both sexes and that the provocation that has actually started them off offence of rape has been broadened to in that type of activity. I commend the Minister significantly take into account the level of for this Bill's recognition that the exploitation of trauma felt by a woman who suffers various children for sexually explicit purposes is forms of rape. I notice that it just calls it rape inappropriate and harmful. and does not follow the American path and I refer also to the section on genital include digital rape, object rape and a lot of mutilation. In our society in Australia it is hard other forms of the crime. for some people to believe that it occurs, but Changes to the definition of consent to because we are a very multicultural country the read "consent freely and voluntarily given by a occurrence of genital mutilation is on the person with the cognitive capacity to give increase. I commend the Minister for two consent" is also a great way of bringing the things: firstly, that it is outlawed; and, secondly, definition of "consent" into a more enlightened that he has caught in this legislation those time. I could speak to many other aspects of people who may be tempted to take a child 3550 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 interstate or overseas for the purposes of that whether we are still in the same courtroom procedure. I know the Scrutiny of Legislation hearing the original charge. They can change Committee talked about reversing the onus of the face of a case to the point at which the proof. It is not a religious belief, it is a cultural guilt of the accused is almost unquestionable, belief. Even if it was a religious belief, it is one but they are able to get away on some small that should not have to be adhered to. But technicality of law. those who strongly hold the view that genital The damage to the victims in these mutilation is an appropriate process and is a circumstances, whether it be through rape or signature of some sort as far as potential incest, is no less. The relationship of the marriageability of a female child will use any perpetrator makes no difference. Whether it be excuse, camouflage or smokescreen to be by a blood relative or a non-blood relative, for able to remove a female child at the example, a de facto, the damage to that victim appropriate age to have that procedure done. is no less and the person should not be able The fact that they now have to consider to be considered in a lighter manner simply criminal consequences in some instances will because the term can be argued superficially. not stop it. There will still have to be vigilance on the part of anyone in contact with young The issue of cross-examination and the female children, particularly contact with those protection of witnesses is one—and this is not groups in the community who practise this a criticism of the Minister—where I believe we procedure. There will still have to be vigilance still have a long way to go. I am of the opinion so that any child affected in this way is that we need to reach the point at which it is detected. However, this will add an extra mandatory for certain classes of witnesses not barrier so that people do not consider lightly a to go onto the stand. However, this provides or request to take a female child either interstate affords a high degree of protection to those or more likely overseas for that to occur, and I who are required to give evidence and commend the Minister for that. It is a sad particularly to those who are required to give recognition of the reality. evidence in front of somebody, that is, the I wish also to comment on the extension alleged perpetrator, who has been violent with of the offence of rape to include penetration the victim. They are intimidated and by the offender of the vagina, vulva and anus frightened. It is very easy in a courtroom, of the victim by any body part or object. I where there is a high level of stress, anyway, actually read the proceedings of a hearing for a witness to feel a hugely heightened where a judge talked on a scale of sense of fear and intimidation. Any protection intrusiveness. That judge genuinely believed— that we can give particularly young people in and I believe absolutely wrongly—that a those circumstances is to be welcomed. female who was penetrated by an object was The issue of children and people with less affected because it was not penile intellectual disabilities giving unsworn evidence penetration. The violence of the attack and the again is a welcome sign of the community in long-term psychological damage was no less, which we live. A number of years ago, people yet the judge in that instance treated the with an intellectual disability were not incident in a lighter manner simply because an integrated into society. They were not as object was used for penetration and it was not accessible to people who want to do harm to penile penetration. I commend the Minister, them. In the old days they were locked away because the circumstances surrounding the and were not outside. The opportunities for child in that instance were no less horrific and people to do harm to these people, old or yet it was dealt with in quite a different young, with an intellectual disability or young manner. children who find it difficult to understand what I turn to the section relating to offences of an oath is—and it is fairly easy for an attorney a sexual nature and the allowance of rape and or a solicitor to trip up a young child—have incest as alternative verdicts. I wish to increased. That people with intellectual comment only briefly on that. I believe there disabilities will be caught up in these have been instances in the past where people circumstances and will be able to give very who should be convicted of a very serious clear evidence but may not understand that offence have been able to get away with their the detail of an oath should be recognised. I crime on the basis of a technicality. Anyone commend the Minister for that recognition. who has sat in a court and listened to The other matter that I want to canvass argument by well-trained people—solicitors, briefly is the issue of self-defence and defence lawyers and QCs—would know that they are of property under duress. The only comment I able to isolate an issue in a case and argue it want to make is that this Bill recognises that to the point at which we wonder at times what is a sense of fear to one person may not 5 Oct 2000 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 3551 be a sense of fear to another. It depends on broad cross-section—have done a superlative where people are, who they are, their physical job. size, their physical strength, their physical This is the culmination of a massive disabilities, what time of day it is, the amount process of consultation. It has been an of darkness, the amount of light, whether they inclusive process. It has certainly not been a are on their own, whether they are on their process in which anybody has been excluded. own property or in a foreign location. This It is therefore I think to the great credit of those change recognises that different people, women that we have produced legislation males or females, may feel different levels of which appears to command support from all duress depending on a number of things. This sides of the Parliament. This is designed to gives them the opportunity to be able to show shift the culture of the criminal law. It is part of to the court that the actions that they took a broader process of trying to ensure that our were completely justifiable and that they were system of justice is inclusive and reflects the acceptable in the circumstances in which they needs, the aspirations, the culture of the whole found themselves. community. I am conscious of the time. However, I For far too long there has been a wanted to take a few moments to put those scandalous underrepresentation of women in things on the record. I again say to the our courts. Since coming to office, this Minister that I believe that the support of the Government has made 17 female community will be clear and evident in any appointments to the bench. We now find protection that he can give to the community ourselves in the position in which women make in circumstances of violence. up six out of the 24 on the bench of the The Bill also talks about the definition of Supreme Court, four out of 35 in the District "consent" in regard to rape. Most people Court and 13 out of 75 in the Magistrates would find it difficult to believe the arguments Court. There continues to be a scandalous that occur in a courtroom or in the lead-up to a underrepresentation of women on the bench. court hearing about whether or not the victim I am pleased to note that in Queensland of a rape consented. At last year's Reclaim the we have a female President of the Court of Night, I saw the best T-shirt I have ever seen. Appeal, a female Chief Judge of the District It said, "Which part of 'no' don't you Court, a female Chief Stipendiary Magistrate understand?" I thought that was a brilliant and a female Director of Public Prosecutions. message. Often it is not just a case of saying The law is at its best when it is inclusive, when yes or no; it is a case of intoxication, of it is there for men, women, children—for the diminished ability, of having drugs whole community. For too long women have administered to the point at which the victim been excluded from decision making. For too could almost be tricked into believing after the long women have not had a fair say in the incident that they gave consent. That is make-up of the law. recognised in this Bill. There are all types of Let me deal briefly with the contributions circumstances in which the victim and the from honourable members. I thank the victim's ability to consent in an open, free and honourable member for Warwick for his knowledgeable manner is impeded. The support. I agree that, if a person is unable to recognition of that in this Bill is welcome, and I understand a bail undertaking, this raises commend the Minister. serious questions as to whether the person Hon. M. J. FOLEY (Yeronga—ALP) should be dealt with in any event under the (Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and criminal justice system. However, the practical Minister for The Arts) (5.52 p.m.), in reply: I problem is that police officers are often asked thank honourable members for their to attend upon, say, a disturbance in a contributions. This Bill honours a Labor shopping centre. They arrest a person, they election promise. We have delivered what we take them back to the watch-house and they promised to the Queensland people. We find that the person is a person with a promised that we would set up a women's task disability. How do they then deal with that force on the Criminal Code and that it would person? Is that person simply locked up be composed of a broad range of people. We overnight, or can that person have the benefit delivered on that promise. In my second- of bail? That is what this is designed to reading speech I have already congratulated address. That arose out of the process of the women on the task force. They did a consultation. mighty job. People from the Country Women's Let me turn to the honourable member's Association, the rape crisis groups, police comments on female genital mutilation. The officers, prosecutors, legal aid lawyers—a very accused can give evidence to rebut the 3552 Drought Declarations 5 Oct 2000 presumption that the removal of the child Committee overseas was for a particular purpose, but Hon. M. J. FOLEY (Yeronga—ALP) there is, of course, the rebuttable presumption. (Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and The honourable member referred to the Minister for The Arts) in charge of the Bill. definition of "consent" and asked the meaning of the terms "freely" and "voluntarily given". Progress reported. They mean what they say. It is self-evident. It is again part of an important process—certainly DROUGHT DECLARATIONS important among the women who contributed to the process—that it be clear that consent be Mr ROWELL (Hinchinbrook—NPA) freely and voluntarily given. That was very (6 p.m.): I move— eloquently demonstrated by the example that "That in view of the difficulty drought- the member for Archerfield gave about the stricken primary producers are having in way in which this area has been securing individual droughted property misunderstood by some. declarations because of the narrow With respect to sexual history, the interpretation of the eligibility criteria by honourable member referred to the extension the Department of Primary Industries, this of the requirement that the court's leave be Parliament calls on the Minister for obtained to cross-examine on the sexual Primary Industries to direct that all factors history between the accused and the are taken into account, including the complainant. This ensures that only relevant effectiveness and distribution of any past evidence is led. The honourable member rainfall and rainfall totals alone are not raised the issue of surgically constructed relied on. genitalia. It should be noted that the law Further, this Parliament calls on the already allows both men and women to be Beattie Government to overturn its charged with rape or be victims of rape. With decision to abandon State-based drought respect to hearsay, the purpose, of course, is relief schemes by 2002." to ensure that relevant evidence can be led. Drought is one of the most insidious and The example would be a case of the voice of a pervasive of all climatic events that homicide victim. That ensures that relevant Queensland experiences. Drought not only evidence can be heard even though the affects our primary producers and our primary witness is unavailable. industries but also has severe flow-on effects I thank the member for Caboolture for his for businesses which depend on those support. In relation to the cross-examination by industries, the communities which have been an unrepresented accused, the mechanism built around those industries and in fact the followed here is the same as that entire State economy. Drought is not just a recommended by the Queensland Law problem for individual primary producers; it is a Reform Commission. This process had the community problem. Drought is unfortunately a benefit of being informed by the Law Reform fact of life in Queensland, a fact of life which Commission in its report, and we are still primary producers must plan for in the ongoing awaiting a further report. Indeed, the management of their businesses. By and honourable member for Gladstone made large, most producers do it well most of the reference to that with respect to the issue of time. Because drought can have such a cross-examination. We are still awaiting the pervasive and costly effect on everyone in the further report from the Queensland Law community in one way or another, it has long Reform Commission on the evidence of been acknowledged that the Government also children. I look forward to taking further action has an important role to play in combating its upon receipt of that report. effects. The honourable member for Archerfield The success of the community's ability to referred eloquently to the background of this. It respond to drought in no small part hinges on is an important reform. The Greek goddess the policies employed by the Government of Themis still stands outside the Supreme Court. the day. The coalition believes that that It is important that we reform not only the letter response is best achieved through a two- of the law but also the spirit of the law, for the pronged strategy. In our view and in the view law is at its most powerful and its most noble of most Queenslanders, an effective drought when it is inclusive of the whole of the policy is one which provides every opportunity community, of women as well as men. I to anticipate a drought and every opportunity commend the Bill to the House. to recover from that drought when the rains Motion agreed to. eventually arrive. That was the implemented 5 Oct 2000 Drought Declarations 3553 policy of the former coalition Government, and Mr Palaszczuk: Do you want the it is a policy we remain committed to. document tabled? During most of the time we held Mr ROWELL: Yes, I would like to look at Government between early 1996 and June it. The Minister can do that. The Borbidge 1998, large areas of Queensland were Government supported the decision of the experiencing one of the worst droughts in Goss Government to phase out drought relief memory. We introduced a whole range of by 2002. However, there was never any measures to help primary producers and the decision to revive that failed Goss policy. There wider community better anticipate drought and was never any decision to scrap the State's better plan their management activities drought relief schemes. In fact, I remind this accordingly. Undoubtedly, the most significant Parliament that it was the former Borbidge of those was the establishment of the Government which did more to assist primary Queensland Centre for Climate Applications in producers battle through the drought at the Toowoomba, a joint initiative between the time than the Goss or Beattie Governments Department of Primary Industries and the will ever do. It was a Borbidge Government Department of Natural Resources. This centre that in fact increased the subsidies on stock is a national nucleus for climate research, returning from agistment from 50% to 75% to applications and extension and is continuing to 100% for core breeders. gain world recognition for the work it is doing to As the situation worsened in 1996, we further our knowledge of climate and our ability reintroduced the forward freight subsidy to respond to climatic change. scheme for livestock for six months. I was On top of that, we set about restoring the Minister when we increased the freight subsidy services that had been gutted under the Goss for carting water from a lousy 25% to a Labor Government campaign of rape and meaningful 75%. In fact, in the six months to pillage against the DPI and its staff—services April 1998, the coalition Government had such as the research and development of new provided $2.8m to drought-stricken areas drought tolerant crops and pasture varieties, under the Drought Relief Assistance Scheme. drought feeding techniques, drought Those are not the actions of a Government management and services such as the Farm which does not support drought-relief Financial Counselling Service. All of those schemes. Therefore, the Minister should not initiatives were about helping to anticipate attempt to come into this Chamber tonight and drought, helping to plan for it and helping to perpetuate his misinformation about the manage it. In short, they were about helping to former coalition Government. improve our primary producers' ability to Despite the value of those schemes for remain self-reliant during times of drought. those drought-stricken producers, they are not However, at the same time we also perfect and there have always been a number acknowledged that there was a need to retain of reviews aimed at improving them. Many a safety net to help primary producers and producers currently suffering drought their communities ride out those severe conditions will vouch for the need for change, droughts. That safety net was and still is based and even more so now that there are some on the so-called transaction subsidies that who, despite the Minister's repeated claims to operate under the Drought Relief Assistance the contrary, cannot meet the eligibility criteria Scheme. Those subsidies are principally freight for individual droughted property declarations, rebates on fodder, water carted in to feed and or IDPs, as they are commonly known. My water drought-stricken stock and freight colleagues will mention this in more detail later rebates on stock sent away on agistment. in the debate. These were based on the principle of self- One of the reviews I refer to was initiated reliance, with the broad objective of preserving by the DPI under the former Government. I the breeding herd and preserving the have noticed that the Minister has selectively environmental condition of a property so it is in quoted from that in another grubby and the best possible condition to recover when deceitful attempt to misrepresent the the drought eventually breaks. coalition's position. What did the Minister do In recent debate regarding the Drought with that review, which had been aimed at Relief Assistance Scheme, we heard a lot of improving the scheme? What did the Minister rot from the Minister for Primary Industries, and and his Labor Cabinet colleagues decide to do a lot of that worthless rot was the Minister's with the State's Drought Relief Assistance accusation that the Borbidge Government had Scheme when they took office? They decided somehow committed to wind back the Drought to revive the failed Goss Government's Relief Assistance Scheme. decision to scrap drought relief. What was the 3554 Drought Declarations 5 Oct 2000

Beattie Government's drought policy? It did was the issue they had to look at. In the case not have one. of Warwick and Stanthorpe there has been no Despite the worsening drought situation in meeting of the representative local drought southern Queensland and right up into the committees. Burnett and the reminder once again that a Mr Palaszczuk: It is up to them to meet. safety net is needed, Mr Palaszczuk and his Mr SPRINGBORG: I have letters which Beattie Government decided to abandon the show that they have been called on by local Drought Relief Assistance Scheme against the producer organisations to activate and they very strong advice of groups such as Agforce. have not answered. That is the issue. The Why was this contemptible decision made? Minister says that the committees are out There can be no other reason than the Beattie there making these representations and Government's desperate grab for any dollar it meeting, but who activates them? They are can possibly extract out of rural Queensland. not activated and they are not out there This morning we were given more insight by working for the producers as they should be. the Minister's inability to explain how the $10m That is the real concern. It is this stringent East Coast Trawl Fishery plan will be funded adherence to the 12-month rainfall criteria when he was not given any budget allocation. which has been the departmental officers' Mr Palaszczuk: Come back to drought. aversion to pulling together the committees Mr ROWELL: I am sure the Minister and taking on board local information. wants me to come back to the issue of Maybe the situation is different in other drought because I am sure he cannot explain areas, but I can tell the Minister that the it. people who are talking to me are talking very Time expired. honestly about it. The real concern out there is Mr SPRINGBORG (Warwick—NPA) that the rainfall data is very distorted. Let us (Deputy Leader of the Opposition) (6.10 p.m.): look at the figures available from the Bureau of I second the motion moved by the honourable Meteorology. If we look at the six months to member for Hinchinbrook. This situation is March this year we see that there was average absolutely desperate. I and a number of rainfall. In the six months since then there has producer organisation representatives met with been below average rainfall. Further analysis the Minister on 22 August and, I must say, gives a true indication. The Courier-Mail today received what I thought was quite a shows that most of the rainfall fell between sympathetic hearing. At that meeting we October and December of last year. Since that outlined a number of issues and concerns for time these areas have received probably 10% producers across southern inland Queensland, or 20% of the rainfall they could expect in that including the way the current drought relief nine-month period. Some people are saying, assistance criteria were being applied in and the historical rainfall data available to Queensland and the over-reliance upon 12- individual properties shows, that they have had month historical rainfall data. the worst rainfall since 1903. That is an absolute disaster. The Minister indicated quite firmly at the meeting his belief that local drought The problem is that the guidelines set committees should be very involved in that down for consideration of these applications process—something we all agree with. To give are not being interpreted in the way they were the Minister the benefit of the doubt, I suspect supposed to be and in the way they were he was very genuine in that contention. being interpreted in 1992 and subsequently. However, I would like to say to the Minister that The issues of distribution of rainfall and there have been, certainly across the southern effectiveness of rainfall should also be inland part of Queensland, situations which considered. That has not been considered in prove that what he was contending and what my area. It is causing a lot of concern amongst has actually been happening out there are not those people. meeting in the middle. That is, the drought Mr Palaszczuk: Your LDC in Warwick met committee representatives have not had their on 14 July. advice listened to in any substantive way. Mr SPRINGBORG: The LDC in Warwick or I understand that in the case of in Inglewood? Inglewood there was one meeting in early Mr Palaszczuk: In Warwick. June. Notwithstanding that meeting of the committee, the responsible departmental Mr SPRINGBORG: In that case, the officer is still very much of the opinion, to communication between the organisations out recent times—I am talking about up to this there and the people in the Minister's week—that the 12-month historical rainfall data department who are responsible for liaising 5 Oct 2000 Drought Declarations 3555 with them is not working, because there are and a further two properties have been people and organisations writing to the declared in the Chinchilla Shire. committees, asking for activation and asking to As the Minister for Primary Industries and be part of the process—we are talking about Rural Communities, I am concerned about the Agforce branches—and they are not being impact that the prolonged dry conditions are responded to. They are given phone numbers having on primary producers and rural and addresses in other places. The communities. As I said previously, I representatives who are a part of it, in the case announced that the number of IDP of the Agforce branch at Karara, have not declarations in Queensland had almost tripled been involved. I have documentation here to over September to 344 properties. At the start prove that. I am very happy to provide that of August there were 127 individual droughted information. There is a significant properties in Queensland. communication problem out there and it is causing a great degree of concern. IDP applications are assessed by the local Department of Primary Industries' stock Notwithstanding meetings that are inspectors and local drought committees made happening around the place, we have a up of local industry representatives. It is situation where there is a stringent adherence important that the drought policy is to the rainfall criteria. Officers themselves are administered independent of politics, and that saying, "Don't bother applying for applications is why the local drought committees make because with the 12-month rainfall data you recommendations. haven't got a hope of actually getting it at this stage." Whether things have changed in the The guidelines of the drought policy are last week I am not sure, but that is what has the same now as they were in 1992 and the been happening to date. People have been same as they were under the previous told that. Unless there is a far more Borbidge coalition Government. The following compassionate approach to and consideration factors are taken into account when of those guidelines, we will see this disaster considering IDP applications: amount, continue. effectiveness and distribution of rainfall over the last 12 months; availability of pasture and Time expired. water; stock condition; amount of destocking Hon. H. PALASZCZUK (Inala—ALP) above normal turn-off; and amount of drought (Minister for Primary Industries and Rural feeding being undertaken. Communities) (6.16 p.m.): I move the following Mr Seeney: Tell us what you really think. amendment— Mr PALASZCZUK: The member does not "Delete all words after 'That' and want to listen to the truth, does he? There has insert the following— been no change to how the guidelines are 'this House acknowledges that the 1992 being applied by the local stock inspectors and Queensland drought policy, entitled local drought committees. If primary producers Drought: Managing for self-reliance, do have a complaint about the application of remains unchanged and that this House the policy, I urge them to contact the head of notes that under the existing drought the drought unit within the Department of policy the number of individual droughted Primary Industries. properties (IDP) has almost tripled over In 1992 the then Queensland the last month and that this House also Government and industry agreed to the notes attempts by the previous Borbidge current drought policy called Drought: Coalition Government to fast-track the Managing for self-reliance. Under the national phase-out of transaction-based drought drought policy agreed to by all States and subsidies ahead of the 2002 deadline industry, State-based transaction-based which this Government will honour.'." drought subsidies had to be phased out. The Before addressing the amendment to the Queensland Government at that time motion I would like to update members on the maintained that there needed to be a 10-year number of individual droughted properties. implementation of the policy of self-reliance Yesterday I announced that 344 properties and the phase-out of transaction-based were individually drought declared in subsidies. This was progressed by the former Queensland. The Department of Primary Borbidge coalition Government. I am advised Industries has informed my office this that in September 1996 at the Australian afternoon that there have been a further eight Agricultural Ministers Conference the then properties declared. Of those eight properties, Borbidge Government agreed that there six have been declared in the Inglewood Shire should be early action by the States and 3556 Drought Declarations 5 Oct 2000

Territories to phase out remaining transaction "Self-reliance fundamentally involves subsidies. producers adopting management I rest my case. It appears that the practices which reduce exposure to the Borbidge coalition Government was prepared risks associated with the complete range to phase out the subsidies ahead of the year of business variables including climate. 2002. This Government intends to honour the It requires producers to accept the 1992 agreement with industry to maintain the responsibility to prepare for and manage subsidies for a decade. The Queensland for periods of climate stress. Government is the only remaining State If the productive capacity of the farm Government to continue to provide is to be maintained in the long-term, transaction-based drought subsidies. decisions have to be made at the The Department of Primary Industries has individual property level which take into advised me that, if the Queensland account the particular characteristics of transaction-based drought subsidies are the enterprise and the conditions that retained beyond 2002, the continued apply in the region where the enterprise is availability of exceptional circumstances to located." Queensland farmers could be jeopardised. As The policy also says about self-reliance that— part of the move to self-reliance, the "Self-reliance as a strategy has wide Queensland Government has supported a acceptance in the rural community. range of strategies to promote greater self- reliance for Queensland farm business. These It is supported by the major industry initiatives include: improved climate forecasting groups within Queensland." and climate research; development of climate The Deputy Prime Minister—the National Party management tools for agricultural production; mate of those opposite—John Anderson, has farm financial counselling and support with said— property planning; support for enterprise "National Drought Policy will see a diversification and business planning, FarmBis transition from Government provision of programs for training and skills; future profit drought relief assistance for farmer and drought management workshops; and businesses, to incentives for drought research into the development of drought- preparedness, good resource resistant crops. management and more effective farm I would again urge any primary producer family welfare." affected by the prolonged dry conditions who Mr Anderson also said— is seeking assistance to apply for an IDP declaration. As I said earlier, over the past "Farmers will hope to play an month the number of IDPs has almost trebled. increasing role in achieving self-reliance If that is the case, surely honourable members and profitability of their businesses, whilst opposite would appreciate the fact that the also ensuring the environment is drought policy is working. protected." The self-reliance initiatives undertaken by the Time expired. Queensland Government include: improved Mr MULHERIN (Mackay—ALP) climate forecasting and climate research with (6.22 p.m.): I rise to second the amendment the establishment of the Queensland Centre moved by the Minister for Primary Industries. for Climate Applications; development of Tonight we are again witnessing another climate management tools for agricultural shroud-waving exercise by the National Party production; farm financial counselling and members opposite. They are trying to support with property planning; support for recapture the ground they lost to One Nation enterprise diversification and business at the last election. That is what this debate is planning; FarmBis programs for training and all about. Let us look at the facts. skills; future profit and drought management Industry supports the policy of self- workshops; and research into development of reliance. Industry supported the 1992 policy. drought-resistant crops. Industry supported the 1999 review of that The latest Queensland Centre for Climate policy. The coalition in Government supported Applications forecast for the remaining three the policy of self-reliance. When we say "self- months is quite positive. According to the reliance", what are we talking about? The forecast, most of Queensland can at least 1992 Queensland drought policy entitled expect up to a 70% chance of receiving Drought: Managing for self-reliance details the above-average rainfall for the rest of the year. concept of self-reliance. It says— It is positive news for primary producers, but 5 Oct 2000 Drought Declarations 3557 the real relief will only come when the rains suits the Government's purpose. It suits the start falling. Government's purpose to block drought Mr Cooper: What is positive? Tell us. declarations for as long as it can. The Government simply cannot afford to provide Mr MULHERIN: "Positive" means we have the little bit of pitiful assistance that producers rain. A number of members opposite have receive from the State Government. referred to the situation in the Warwick and Stanthorpe regions. I understand that the I believe that the whole eastern side of Warwick drought committee had a combined the Callide electorate should be drought meeting with its Stanthorpe colleagues in July. declared. The time for argument about I understand that to date within Stanthorpe independent declarations is over. Regrettably, and Warwick Shires only 35 individual the shires that make up the southern end of droughted property applications have been the Callide electorate—the South Burnett received. The Karara branch of Agforce has shires of Wondai, Murgon and Kilkivan—are recently requested that the committee should suffering badly at the moment. Those shires meet more frequently. The frequency of the are well past the point where they should have meetings is determined by the number of IDP been totally drought declared. applications. I understand that the Warwick From Banana Shire in the north right local drought committee will hold its next down through the Burnett Valley—from Monto meeting on 18 October. IDP applications and to Eidsvold to Mundubbera to Gayndah and conditions throughout the shire are expected down to Biggenden—the situation is reaching to be assessed at that time. a point where all shires should be drought The Minister and Agforce have urged declared. It is extremely disappointing to hear primary producers affected by the very dry the attitude of the Minister for Primary conditions to lodge an application for individual Industries and his officers out there in the droughted property declarations. There have Burnett. It is extremely disappointing to come been no instructions given suggesting that into this Parliament tonight and hear the primary producers not apply for IDP meaningless rhetoric that is mouthed by the applications. It is unfair for the opposition to Minister. attack DPI stock inspectors—they are He stands up there and reads statements dedicated and hardworking public servants. In that are prepared by somebody in the relation to drought assistance, DPI stock bureaucracy. For him to stand up there and inspectors basically receive three types of rave on with meaningless words which he did inquiries regarding drought applications: the not understand—and made no effort to producer who wants to apply and is given understand—illustrates again to this House the application forms and an information booklet; pathetic job that he is doing as the Minister for the producer who wants to know what he or this important industry. she may get out of the scheme—most are I invite honourable members to look at given application forms; and the producer who the local press in the Burnett area. Honourable wants to know the criteria. members would see the long, convoluted and Let me repeat for the benefit of all scarcely credible arguments that the Minister members that the drought policy and and his officers are putting up about rainfall guidelines for drought declarations have not criteria over the last 12-month period. That is changed. The policy now is the same as it was their backstop. That is their argument. in 1992 and the same as it was under the Irrespective of that 12-month rainfall Borbidge coalition Government. Those criteria, the South Burnett shires are clearly opposite had the opportunity when they were drought-stricken. A casual drive up through the last in Government to change it, but they did area from Proston to Wondai to Murgon will not. They conformed with the national reveal large areas of native timber that is standard. suffering leaf loss and is dying from the effects Mr SEENEY (Callide—NPA) (6.27 p.m.): I of dry weather. I have lived on the land all my rise to support the Opposition motion calling life and I have seen that happen only once on the Minister for Primary Industries to direct before. It is an extreme situation which I hope that all factors are taken into account when never to see again. It is an indication of how considering applications for independent dry the South Burnett region is. drought property declarations and that 12- It is simply absurd for land-holders who monthly rainfall totals alone not be relied on in are suffering in that absolutely dry situation to isolation from other factors. hear the Minister talk about rainfall criteria over It is convenient for the Minister to rely on the last 12 months. It is absurd for land- 12-monthly rainfall totals at the moment. It holders to read in the local paper the absolute 3558 Drought Declarations 5 Oct 2000 rubbish that the Minister puts out, or that his He makes a fool of himself every time he minders and his press secretaries put out. speaks about this subject. They do not have a clue what they are talking Mr PEARCE (Fitzroy—ALP) (6.30 p.m.): I about. They do not understand the situation. rise to support the amended motion moved by They are making complete fools of themselves the Minister for Primary Industries and Rural in front of people who do understand the Communities. As a member of Parliament situation. representing central Queensland, I am The rainfall criteria should always be used concerned about the impact of the prolonged as a guide but can never be the only dry season. I can tell the House that below consideration. There are a number of other average rainfalls, the type of rain event and criteria which the Minister can use, such as the time of those rain events means that, while crop and pasture condition and stock there has been adequate winter feed and condition. It is easy to find out the situation water, the increasing temperatures and winds with regard to those types of criteria in that have certainly dried the country out. There are area where the native timber is dying. There rural producers moving into a drought has to be a degree of subjective judgment situation, which has the potential to deteriorate about local conditions. It is obvious to anyone quite quickly and finish up in what I see will be who drives through the South Burnett that that an extended dry period. subjective judgment would lead anybody to a fair-minded conclusion that the area should be In central Queensland an extra 14 drought declared. properties were declared individually droughted over the last month. I understand that currently The Minister should get in his ministerial 48 properties are declared drought affected in limo and take a drive up through Goomeri and central Queensland: 26 in the Banana Shire, Murgon, out to Proston and up to seven in the Duaringa Shire, six in the Fitzroy Mundubbera and have a look at that country. Shire, five in the Livingstone Shire and four in When he came back here he would realise the Calliope Shire. I believe the three shires of how stupid are some of the things that he said Banana, Duaringa and Fitzroy contain some here tonight. If the Minister was to declare 2,500 properties. So at the moment a very those shires drought stricken, the land-holders small percentage of those properties are would be able to access freight subsidies on individually drought declared, but those fodder, water and livestock haulage. They are numbers will increase as time goes on. not huge subsidies; they are pitifully small subsidies for the people caught in that For the benefit of honourable members situation. They assist in the maintenance and also rural producers I think it is important feeding of stock. They play a role in ensuring that we detail the long-established process for that the land is not degraded. The drought individual droughted property declarations and declaration for those shires would also be a in turn shire drought declarations. The recognition of just how tough things have been Queensland Department of Primary Industries for those people over the past 10 years. It has administers drought declarations, revocations been too tough for too long right throughout and assistance measures through its Drought the Burnett area for anyone to have Relief Assistance Scheme. State declarations accumulated any reserves to meet this current are triggered by a severe climatic circumstance situation. defined in terms of a one in 10 to 15 year event. While rainfall deficiencies over the It is fine for the Minister to talk about the preceding 12 months are a primary concept of self-reliance. It is a philosophy we consideration, other factors that impact upon do not disagree with, but we need some good agricultural production under drought seasons to build up some economic resources conditions are also considered. What we are to achieve that aim. It just has not happened saying there is that, while the time of the last in the last decade. The economic conditions significant rain event is a factor, it is not the have been bad, quite apart from the climatic only consideration. In terms of individually conditions. The cross price squeeze that most declared properties, livestock producers who of those land-holders have found themselves consider that their property is drought stricken in has seriously eroded their economic viability, may apply to their local stock inspector for an and they have had to face a decade of poor individual droughted property declaration, seasons that unfortunately look like being which I am advising people in my area to do. repeated in this season. That area through the Burnett Valley has had one of the worst runs in The following criteria are considered by terms of weather conditions. The land-holders the stock inspector and local drought are all small land-holders. That is the nature of committee, which is made up of local industry the area and the Minister has not got a clue. representatives, before issuing an IDP: rainfall, 5 Oct 2000 Drought Declarations 3559 when that rain fell and the volume of the rain. catalogued the conditions in their particular A lot of rain can fall in a couple of days and parts of the State. put the average up, but then rain might not fall I want to start off by talking about the for quite a long time after that. Other criteria Chinchilla Shire, which the Minister spoke taken into consideration are: water; pasture about a while ago, saying that another 120 availability, which is very important; stock properties have been declared. I have lived in condition, which is also very important; and the same area for nearly 60 years now and I stocking rates. If a property is overstocked it can tell the House that after talking to my can have a severe impact on the way that the neighbours, who keep extensive records of land is performing. rainfall, about their farming practices, I know One thing that I have said to people in my that this is the first time ever in 47 years that electorate is, "Go to your local stock inspector." one bloke has not taken his header out of the Drought committees are managed by local shed to harvest. In my opinion, these people who live in the area and who are conditions are the worst I have ever seen experiencing the circumstances. They should there. I grew up on that land. The last good be the people who are making the decisions rains were in January. The only other effective about whole-of-shire declarations. The worst rain was in June, and that was just enough to thing that we, as politicians, can do is try to allow farmers to plant their cereal grains, but interfere with that process because those they have not started to grow. It is 100 days people are out there living it and they are out now since any rain fell at all—effective or not. there understanding it. What I say to some of The rainfall for the year to date is something the members opposite and what I intend to less than 200 millimetres, but the annual say to people in my electorate is, "Get the average is 625. bloody drought committees off their backsides So the reality is that there has been no to do their job." That is what it is all about. If growth of natural pastures since January, no individuals out there have a problem, well, get growth of any winter pastures, no run-off of them to go to their stock inspectors and get on water into dams or creeks—that is rather critical with it. at the moment—and there is absolutely no An IDP declaration is automatically moisture in the topsoil or subsoil. invoked by an area declaration. So if half a I want to chronicle the sorts of things that dozen individual properties are drought I have done in my electorate that are similar to declared and the picture starts to get worse, what the member for Fitzroy was talking about. the drought committee comes along and says, In late June/early July I talked to the DPI stock "We have a real problem here. We need to inspector in Dalby, Peter Oberhardt, and we declare the shire as a drought stricken shire." discussed the deteriorating situation. He said What does it do? It makes a recommendation that the committee had met and that the to the Minister. I can say this: the Minister decision of the committee at that stage was would not want to knock one back in my area; that, even though pastures were drying off he would know all about it. badly, the condition of the stock was still good The people have to go through the and it was premature to go ahead with any process. Those people in the area who sort of declarations. I agreed with that because understand the problems and who are out I had been to the saleyards that day and I was there living them are the ones who make the aware of the condition of my own cattle and decisions. Individual producers within drought what things were like, although I had driven declared areas may also apply for revocations around the electorate and had seen that some through the local stock inspector. If there is a people were in dire straits. drought and things change, the drought declaration can stay in place but an individual Then on approximately 20 August I again can go along to the local stock inspector and sought the same officer out. In fact, he was say, "Look, I have had good rains. The grass down in Brisbane and I talked to Peter is starting to grow. I am okay, so I want my Leggett, who is the other officer in the Dalby individual drought declaration revoked." office. I said that I was going to start making some noises about asking for IDPs in the hope Time expired. that the committees would crank up and I Hon. B. G. LITTLEPROUD (Western would get some support. That officer said to Downs—NPA) (6.35 p.m.): I rise to support the me, "Well, I have got to tell you, Brian, that we original motion moved by the member for have to be guided by the drought declaration Hinchinbrook. The member for Hinchinbrook guidelines", and I just want to quote from and the member for Callide have already them. On page 1 the guidelines state— 3560 Drought Declarations 5 Oct 2000

"To be eligible for a drought millimetres—80 points of rain—is an effective declaration the property under rainfall. Anything less than that, especially if it assessment must meet the 1 in 10 to 15 has been a fair time since the last lot of rain, is year rainfall deficiency criteria. The not enough. Now we are in the situation in assessment compares actual recorded which people need at least 25 millimetres, rainfall during the previous twelve months maybe 75 millimetres—or three inches—of rain to historical data. The effectiveness of the for it to have any impact. I am pleading with rainfall is also considered." the Minister—and I have said this On page 2 it continues— privately—that he look at the effectiveness of the rainfall criteria. "The following factors are taken into account when considering IDP I am aware that in the past week the applications and primary producers must Minister had an interview with Ben Rees of be confident that their property will meet Miles. Ben is a pretty cluey sort of a bloke. He the criteria before lodging a formal insists that even the criteria upon which the Application for an IDP declaration: department bases the rainfall is scientifically flawed. (a) Rainfall. Amount and distribution of rainfall over the last 12 months." Time expired. The guidelines do not mention effectiveness. I Mrs LAVARCH (Kurwongbah—ALP) think that the Minister ought to look at that. (6.41 p.m.): I rise to support the amended motion moved by the Minister. The 1999 That brings me to the chronicle I was Queensland drought policy, Drought: talking about. The Minister will remember that I Managing for self-reliance was agreed to by spoke to him in the sittings in August, when I the industry. At the time the policy was was especially concerned about the dairy formulated, an article in the Queensland farmers on the downs. Deregulation of the Country Life of 13 February 1992 titled New industry occurred on 1 July, when they were drought policy wins widespread industry praise right into drought, and I said that the stated— guidelines now needed reviewing, especially for the dairy farmers. We both agreed with that "All major primary industry and the Minister said that he would get on with organisations have endorsed an that. I said, "I think that we need a review of innovative new drought management the guidelines." We came back for the 5 policy formulated by the State September to 8 September sittings and we Government." had a conversation about the situation. I can The article concluded with the following recall that and I asked, "What have we done comments by an industry leader— about the review?" The Minister said, "Nothing, "Cattlemen's Union Queensland really"— chairman Warren McLachlan described Mr Palaszczuk interjected. the 22-page 'Drought: Managing for self- Mr LITTLEPROUD: No, let me finish. The reliance' as a comprehensive, well Minister said further, "But I have been talking researched and positive initiative." to the DPI office and instructed it to be more The executive summary of the policy, which flexible." That worries me, because I wonder was agreed to by industry, stated— whether that was an admission that that office "The Queensland Government is had been too rigid in the way in which it committed to implementation of the applied it. necessary programs to secure a gradual Mr Seeney interjected. change to drought management practices Mr LITTLEPROUD: As the member for in Queensland. Callide said, they were going for the 12-year The introduction of these programs factor rather than the effectiveness. will involve the maintenance of I now want to spend a little bit of time transaction-based special assistance talking about the effectiveness of rainfall. measures for drought relief for a 10-year People can get an effective rainfall of only 5 self-reliance implementation period. millimetres—20 points—if that occurs just after The program will be reviewed and a farmer has planted grain into a moist evaluated after 7 years to determine paddock. However, effective rainfall is whether modifications are necessary to dependent upon how long it had been since achieve the implementation target or the last rainfall and what the subsoil moisture whether existing programs need to be is like. I would say that, in normal farming adjusted or extended beyond the practice out my way, a fall of 20 implementation period." 5 Oct 2000 Drought Declarations 3561

In line with the 1992 policy, a review was been early action to phase out the transaction- undertaken in 1998 and 1999. That review based subsidy. As pointed out by the endorsed overwhelmingly the existing policy of Minister—and it bears repeating—under the self-reliance. I can refer to a number of points national drought policy, all States and raised by industry to reflect the outcome of the Territories were required to phase out review. Although Agforce had been transaction-based subsidies. All other State established, last year both the Cattlemen's Governments have phased out their Union and the United Graziers' Association transaction-based subsidies. The Queensland lodged submissions to the drought policy Government is the only remaining State to review. The Cattlemen's Union submission continue to provide such assistance. agreed with the policy of self-reliance. The Time expired. then Cattlemen's Union president and current Agforce chairman, Keith Adams, stated in his Hon. T. R. COOPER (Crows Nest—NPA) covering letter to the submission— (6.46 p.m.): The sad part about the contributions to the debate from the other side "In summary, the Cattlemen's Union is that it is all academic rubbish; they have not is in agreement with the concept of been out there and seen for themselves the shifting focus from support to producers reality. It would not be hard for them to do it. It from the impact of drought, to a focus is a question of whether or not the members that enhances producers to be self-reliant opposite are sufficiently interested to listen to and prepared for reasonable climatic people's complaints and, as they say, take the fluctuations." politics out of it. Politics is people, and our job The UGA submission stated— is to represent those people who are in "The organisation has no concerns trouble. That is exactly what members of the with the aims of the National Drought Opposition are doing. Policy." I want to read into the record a letter that I Let us not forget that within the 10-year received yesterday from Bob Crothers of Emu implementation period for the policy of self- Creek. It states— reliance, there was a period of National/Liberal "The rainwater shortage in this area Party Government. It is interesting to note has passed the stage of inconvenience. It what the Borbidge coalition Government did is causing hardship, distress and will soon when it was in office. Did the Borbidge become a serious health hazard. Government overturn the policy of self-reliance I spoke to our local water carrier at and halt the phase-out of transaction-based Haden this morning and was told they drought subsidies? No, of course it did not! I have a backlog of approximately 300 refer to the meeting of the Australian deliveries with no hope of getting to me Agriculture Ministers in Cairns in September before the end of November—7 weeks 1996. One of the items on the agenda was away! I suggest that long before that the drought policy. A key direction of the many people will have completely run out drought policy agreed to at the meeting was— of water for domestic use. "Early action by the States and No flush toilets, no showers, no Territories to phase out remaining running water to wash vegetables etc. transaction-based subsidies." In view of the seriousness of this The Queensland Government was situation I believe the Queensland represented at that meeting by the then government should be taking some sort Minister for Primary Industries, Trevor Perrett, of emergency action. and the member for Warrego, Howard Hobbs. It appears that the Borbidge coalition There are army tankers available and Government was prepared to fast-track the local councils further south have tankers phase-out of transaction-based drought standing idle. All of these could be subsidies ahead of the 2002 deadline. That is mobilised with government assistance." the only conclusion that we can reach from Mr Crothers asked me to make them agreeing to that agenda item at the representations to the Premier, which I have meeting in Cairns in September 1996. done. I hand delivered the letter to him The Borbidge coalition Government and yesterday, because the situation is extremely its coalition colleagues in Canberra did not serious. seek to stop the phase-out, and Canberra still It is very easy to get emotional about does not seek to stop the phase-out; in fact, it these sorts of things. We must remember not encourages it. Indeed, the Borbidge coalition to get too carried away. However, the reality of Government believed that there should have the situation is spelt out in that letter, and the 3562 Drought Declarations 5 Oct 2000 situation is the same in the Crows Nest Shire, productive sector. They do not ask for the Rosalie Shire and the Jondaryan Shire. droughts. These things are forced upon them Only recently the Jondaryan Shire made its and they need to be able to deal with them. own move to have the shire drought declared, We have to give them a bit more. As I said, all because it was sick and tired of the delay with we are giving them is the crumbs off the table. IDPs. It is all very well to encourage people to Our job is to look after them. make applications for IDPs, but they get Members opposite are simply not knocked back constantly. experienced enough in what happens during People are in a drought situation and droughts. It is easy to talk to them and inspect cattle are dying. Only a couple of days ago their properties. They will explain their Mrs Crystal Stark of Blue Haze at Crows Nest difficulties to us—the vagaries of the rang me to say that the suicides have started seasons—and the trials and troubles that they again. are going through. If Government members do Another farmer has just shot 20 head of that they will gain an understanding of what cattle because they are drought stricken. If they are going through. If honourable that is not an indication that there is a problem members opposite have people with properties out there, I do not know what is. I do not know in their electorates, that is what they should be what more information those characters need. doing. They should be making I would like the Minister to issue an edict representations. to the various stock inspectors throughout the Time expired. State so that they know that the Minister would Hon. K. W. HAYWARD (Kallangur—ALP) like them to convene meetings of their drought (6.51 p.m.): I rise in support of the amendment committees immediately, if they have not done and in opposition to the motion. I will speak so already, to make sure that they are up to about the motion shortly. However, before I do date on the drought. A lot of the people I know so I wish to indicate that I heard what the who are on these drought committees have member for Crows Nest had to say and I not held meetings. The meetings are at the listened to what other honourable members instigation of the stock inspectors. They must had to say, including the member for Fitzroy. get together. I want the Minister to put out an He made a very important point. I think the edict to those inspectors— member for Crows Nest, in his own way—and it An Opposition member: There are no is very rarely that I say something like stock inspectors. this—picked up on it. The member for Fitzroy Mr COOPER:—to the stock inspectors said that the worst thing we can do is interfere who do exist to immediately hold those in the process. He said that we should tell the meetings. The Minister can do it tonight. As people on the drought committees to get out members are aware, dairy farmers have the and do their job. That is also exactly what I double whammy of deregulation and the heard the member for Crows Nest say. It is drought. important that the meetings of the drought committees take place. Honourable members might remember back to 1991-92, when the Haden/Crows Nest Tonight we might get somewhere when area was the worst affected area in the State. the motion is defeated and the amended That area is worse now than it was then. motion is agreed to. The amended motion Again, I do not know what further criteria are states that other factors should be taken into needed to be met. We have heard all of the account, including the effectiveness and gibberish. All they need to do is look out the distribution of any past rainfall and that rainfall window or talk to those people and see the totals alone should not be relied on. That is problems that they have. They do not have to exactly what the member for Fitzroy was be an Einstein. It is really quite easy. The saying. That is where we should not head. If flexibility will then be there, because these we start relying on other things we start to people will be able to take some effective interfere in the process. What happens then? action. We are talking about the crumbs off Once we start doing that we get involved in all the table. The benefit these people will get will sorts of other issues. We get into issues such be in terms of getting transport assistance for as what management practices people might fodder, water carriage and transfer of stock to have with regard to their property and how a agistment. We need to go a lot further. There particular property will respond to deteriorating needs to be an improvement, firstly, to the seasonal conditions. But something that also criteria for declarations—something realistic relates to management practices is that a and practical—and, secondly, to the benefits number of properties are not of a substantial that we offer those people. They are a very size, causing people to keep artificially high 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3563 numbers of stock. There are all sorts of things AYES, 40—Attwood, Beattie, Bligh, Boyle, Braddy, that do not encourage a grazier or property Bredhauer, Briskey, Clark, J. Cunningham, Edmond, owner to manage their stocking rates Elder, Fenlon, Foley, Fouras, Hamill, Hayward, Kaiser, conservatively. These are important issues. Lavarch, Lucas, Mackenroth, McGrady, Mickel, Miller, Mulherin, Musgrove, Nelson-Carr, Palaszczuk, The worst thing that can happen is when Pearce, Pitt, Reeves, Roberts, Robertson, Rose, people—for example, politicians—start Schwarten, Spence, Struthers, Welford, Wells. interfering with the process. I acknowledge the Tellers: Sullivan, Purcell point made by the member for Crows Nest. He NOES, 40—Beanland, Black, Borbidge, Connor, said, "Let's get these drought committees Cooper, E. Cunningham, Davidson, Elliott, Feldman, meeting and talking about it. Once they're Gamin, Grice, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, Johnson, aware of the issues, the decisions will be Kingston, Knuth, Laming, Lester, Lingard, made. They will follow as a consequence of Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, Paff, Pratt, Prenzler, that, and that is what good policy is about." Rowell, Santoro, Seeney, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, Springborg, Stephan, Turner, Veivers, Watson, If we go back in history—and we have all Wellington. Tellers: Baumann, Hegarty been back in history to the late eighties—we find that things other than rainfall influenced The numbers being equal, Mr Speaker decisions on whether a property or a shire was cast his vote with the Ayes. drought declared. What occurred during that Resolved in the affirmative. time was disgraceful. It resulted in a Public Mr SPEAKER: Order! Any future divisions Accounts Committee report containing on this motion will be of two minutes' duration. unanimous recommendations, including a Question—That the motion, as amended, number of changes to the administration of be agreed to—put; and the House divided— drought relief by the Department of Primary Industries. That is why it is important that we AYES, 40—Attwood, Beattie, Bligh, Boyle, Braddy, never put ourselves in a position such that Bredhauer, Briskey, Clark, J. Cunningham, Edmond, Elder, Fenlon, Foley, Fouras, Hamill, Hayward, Kaiser, those circumstances could be replicated— Lavarch, Lucas, Mackenroth, McGrady, Mickel, where a property or a shire being drought Miller, Mulherin, Musgrove, Nelson-Carr, Palaszczuk, declared depends upon the whim of a Pearce, Pitt, Reeves, Roberts, Robertson, Rose, politician. Once that starts to occur, it causes Schwarten, Spence, Struthers, Welford, Wells. great problems not just within the political Tellers: Sullivan, Purcell process but also in grazing and farming NOES, 40—Beanland, Black, Borbidge, Connor, organisations. We should avoid heading in Cooper, E. Cunningham, Davidson, Elliott, Feldman, that direction. As I said, the point made by the Gamin, Grice, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, Johnson, member for Crows Nest was very important. Kingston, Knuth, Laming, Lester, Lingard, The drought committees should be meeting Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, Paff, Pratt, Prenzler, and looking at the issues. Once they look at Rowell, Santoro, Seeney, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, the issues they will start making decisions. We Springborg, Stephan, Turner, Veivers, Watson, should not be interfering— Wellington. Tellers: Baumann, Hegarty Mr Palaszczuk: It takes only one The numbers being equal, Mr Speaker person—a member of the local drought cast his vote with the Ayes. committee—to ask for a meeting and the Resolved in the affirmative. meeting has to be convened. It is as simple as Sitting suspended from 7.05 p.m. to that. 8.30 p.m. Mr HAYWARD: The Minister illustrates the simplicity of the process. MR SPEAKER'S RULING The honourable member made us aware that it has to happen. Let us ensure that they Cognate Debate get out there, meet and start making Hon. T. M. MACKENROTH (Chatsworth— decisions. If by some chance this amendment ALP) (Leader of the House) (8.30 p.m.), by does not get through tonight and we have a leave, without notice: I move— situation where rainfall totals alone are not "That so much of the Standing relied on to determine whether or not a Orders be suspended to allow a cognate property or a shire is drought declared, we are debate on the following General Business bound to repeat the disasters of history. Notices of Motion—Dissent from Time expired. Speaker's Ruling— Question—That the amendment be No. 1 standing in the name of Mr agreed to—put; and the House divided— Borbidge; 3564 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000

No. 2 standing in the name of Dr Mr BEANLAND: The megagag, as the Watson; member for Toowoomba North says. No. 3 standing in the name of Mr The Goss Government applied the gag Borbidge; on 22 occasions in six years and eight months. No. 4 standing in the name of Mr There were two occasions during the Borbidge; Borbidge/Sheldon Government. This No. 5 standing in the name of Dr Government's record is that it has applied the Watson; gag on some 26 occasions in less than two years and four months. I repeat: the gag has No. 6 standing in the name of Mrs been applied on 26 occasions! What a farce it Sheldon; makes of the Premier's stance just after the No. 7 standing in the name of Mr last election and all his writings and mouthings Springborg; and to the member for Nicklin about the openness, the dissent motions placed on notice transparency and accountability of his today by Mr Beanland, Dr Watson and Mr Government and how it would act in this Seeney. Parliament! What a worthless piece of paper this is, dated 25 June 1999 and addressed to Time limit for speeches 5 minutes for the member for Nicklin! It is not even good fire each Member, provided that Mr Speaker paper. It is totally worthless, signed by Peter shall be entitled to put the question when Beattie, the then Leader of the Opposition. debate has exceeded 60 minutes." What a mockery it makes of the democratic Hon. M. J. FOLEY (Yeronga—ALP) processes. It talks about questions, a (Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and commitment to Parliament, a commitment to Minister for The Arts) (8.32 p.m.): I second the question time, a commitment— motion. Mr Springborg: A commitment to Peter Mr BEANLAND (Indooroopilly—LP) Beattie— (8.32 p.m.): The motion has not been seconded yet, Mr Speaker, but that never Mr BEANLAND: As the member for seems to bother members on that side of the Warwick says, it is a commitment to Peter Chamber. Has it been seconded? Beattie. That is all it is—a commitment to Peter Mr SPEAKER: Order! It has been Beattie and no-one else. seconded, yes. That is what we are seeing here this Mr BEANLAND: I rise to speak against evening. The Government does not have the this motion that has been moved by the courage to debate these dissent motions one Leader of the House this evening and by one. Sure, they might take an hour apiece, seconded by the Attorney-General. Never has but if the Government had the courage we there been such an outrage. This, Mr Speaker, would debate all 10 dissent motions, one by is what you are here to protect—the ability of one. But, no, it has not got the courage to do members in this place to speak. Already in the that. Despite what the Leader of the House past few days of this sitting members have says, he knows he has not got the courage to been denied the ability to ask some questions, do it. It is easy to sit on that side of the yet other questions have been allowed to be Chamber when he has the numbers; it is much asked and were answered by the Premier. In more difficult when he has not got the fact, the Premier has indicated that he has numbers, as I always tell people who sit on double standards and you, Mr Speaker, have that side of the Chamber. It is very easy allowed that to occur. We have seen that on a indeed. If it comes to a tied vote this number of occasions. One has only to check evening—and I hope it does—then, Mr Hansard to see what I am talking about. Speaker, I trust that you will be casting your Tonight, because the Opposition has vote with the members on this side of the moved dissent from Mr Speaker's ruling on 10 Chamber because you have a duty to occasions—and some of those motions were members of this Parliament. moved only today; they are not even on the We have seen what has happened this Notice Paper yet—the Leader of the House week. These 10 motions are dissenting from now comes into the Chamber to apply the your rulings, Mr Speaker—no-one else's gag, the king of all gags, to pick up 10 dissent rulings. Now you are going to be the person motions in one hit. It is worth while noting just who will cast the deciding vote on your own how this Government travels on the gag, rulings. That will certainly go down in history. because it is the Government of the gag. That casting vote will be on not one ruling, but Mr Healy: The megagag! all 10 of them. Casting the deciding vote on all 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3565

10 dissent motions in one fell swoop is what been able to cast his valid vote in those you are talking about doing this evening. divisions, the result would have been tied and I had to smile when I read the headline of that would have required you, Mr Speaker, to the editorial in the Courier-Mail this morning. It cast your vote. So the sins are double in said "Speaker's rulings gag rorts debate". Of relation to this matter because you, Mr course, the whole gag is a rort. The Courier- Speaker, were able to get away with not Mail is right about that. The gag is a rort, a rort casting your vote yesterday on those issues, being perpetrated on this Parliament this and no Speaker casts his vote lightly in those evening by the Labor Party. situations. The situation is that the seven dissent Together with corruption of the electoral motions listed to date are listed separately on rolls, tonight the rorting is flowing into this the Notice Paper. The Leader of the House Chamber in a way in which no Government picked up the other two or three that were has ever done in the past. In order for this moved today and that have not even Government to simply survive, it has to crush appeared on the Notice Paper yet. So we the Opposition—all members of the Opposition have 10—and there could be other debates. and Independent members. So much for The situation is that those debates are entitled accountability and transparency! It is dead in to be given an hour apiece and members are the water, as it was the day—25 June each entitled to up to 10 minutes in which to 1998—the then Leader of the Opposition, speak. I know what Standing Order 117 says Peter Beattie, sent this worthless letter to the in relation to this, as do you, Mr Speaker. It is member for Nicklin. It was dead that day, and quite clear that today we have a situation in it has been dead ever since. which this Government is not prepared to face This Government has shown that by the Parliament, to face the people, in relation gagging debate time and time again. It has to this issue. now reached an all-time record—27 occasions But, of course, it is a bigger issue than in less than two years and four months just dissent motions, because it is about the compared with two occasions in two years and rorting of the electoral rolls of this State. It is four months by the Borbidge Government. In about members in this place asking six years and eight months, the Goss questions—appropriate questions, not Government gagged debated on 22 questions that are out of order. We have occasions. This is the Premier who likes to hold noticed that certain questions are allowed and himself up as being better than anyone else. others are not. I am sure that after some of Of course it makes a nonsense of the whole these questions are allowed to be asked, the process. We know that the Labor Party in this Premier says, "I am happy to answer that." We place laughs it off. I say to the Premier of this have had the Minister for Tourism and Racing State, Peter Beattie: you cannot simply laugh stand in this place and raise a matter of this off. It is far too serious. privilege on a question. That is unheard of! I have already highlighted the erratic Mr Borbidge: On a question that was behaviour of Ministers. There is also the ruled out of order. situation in which Mr Speaker has had to decide which questions to allow whilst having Mr BEANLAND: Mr Speaker, you ruled the Premier say, "I want to answer that one." the question out of order. Yet the Minister In those instances, Mr Speaker allows the stood and said, "I take a point of privilege, Mr question to go to the Premier whether or not it Speaker. I want to answer that question that was ruled out of order. Nevertheless, the you have ruled out of order." What a farce it is! Premier has answered a number of questions What a mockery it makes of the whole dealing with the issue of electoral fraud. I want process! to highlight that, because there have been a Then of course on top of all of this we had number of questions asked by members on the farce yesterday in which the member for this side of the Chamber which one would Crows Nest was ordered from this Chamber have expected to be ruled out of order when under Standing Order 123A by you, Mr compared with questions from the Leader of Speaker, and you refused to allow him to vote the Opposition or the Leader of the Liberal in divisions in this place. It was only today Party. Some of those questions should have when this matter was clarified through the been ruled out of order in this place, but Hansard that you came into the Chamber and because it suited the Premier at the time to apologised. But the point is that there were at answer them, he answered them. One such least three divisions yesterday of which I notice question on electoral fraud was from the there were two in which the ayes were 40 and member for Gregory to the Premier—the very the noes 39. Had the member for Crows Nest issue which Mr Speaker tried to suggest he 3566 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000 would not entertain questions about. However, I call on members of the Labor Party to it is headed in the Hansard record as "Electoral vote down this motion. I am sure many of Fraud". Again, the Speaker allowed the them are ashamed to think that this evening Premier to answer that question. they will see these 10 motions of dissent rolled This is a case of double standards. Those into one debate which will take one hour. double standards are being shown again this Mr Springborg interjected. evening. The fact that Mr Speaker is prepared Mr BEANLAND: In relation to Mr Foley, to accept and support this motion is a very sad the Attorney-General, the great civil libertarian, day indeed for the Parliament of Queensland we have seen his performance in the past in and a very sad day for debate in this place. As relation to a number of these matters when for democracy, transparency and the gag has been moved. He will vote like a accountability and as for this Premier standing good Labor man—with the Labor Party— up in this place and saying, "I'll answer that Mr Springborg: With gusto. and we'll do this and do all these wonderful things for the people of Queensland and make Mr BEANLAND: Yes, with gusto, with the these changes for the Parliament of Labor Party, the Government in this place, Queensland for the betterment of debate", regardless. I appeal to all members to vote what a farce, what a mockery has been made down this motion from the Leader of the of this whole process by this Labor House. Government and by the moving of this motion Hon. R. E. BORBIDGE (Surfers this evening. Paradise—NPA) (Leader of the Opposition) (8.45 p.m.): I rise to support the comments Again, this Government presides over a that have been made by the member for record number of times that debate has been Indooroopilly. What we are seeing tonight is gagged. On 8 December last year the the Government finishing the week the way it Government picked up a whole range of started the week. It has learnt nothing. It has motions in order to apply the gag. Tonight, it is been condemned from one end of the State exceeding that number and excelling itself in to the other over its conduct in the Parliament, the way in which it uses the gag. Under the over its gagging of the Parliament, over its Standing Orders, members are entitled to a silencing of the Parliament. And now at the minimum of one hour to debate each of these end of the parliamentary sitting week the 10 motions of dissent. Each member is Government is doing it again. entitled to 10 minutes in that hour, according Let the people of Queensland make no to Standing Orders, in which to speak. All of mistake: the political party which has evidently that will be wiped this evening if the corrupted the political process in this State is Government gets this motion through the this week corrupting the parliamentary process. House. That is why I say this to Mr Speaker: if What we are seeing is a double whammy, as it comes to a tied vote, you have a duty to the honourable member for Indooroopilly said. vote this motion down to protect members of What we are seeing is an extension of the this place. thuggery, an extension of the political brutality, One of the basic, primary roles of the an extension of the political immorality— Speaker is to uphold members' right to An Opposition member: Electoral debate. There is no clearer right than that this corruption. evening on this very issue, particularly as Mr Mr BORBIDGE: Yes, an extension of the Speaker's rulings themselves are the subject electoral corruption that we are seeing of the debate this evening. Therefore, Mr exposed in Townsville and other parts of the Speaker's role is even more pivotal and more State. It has worked its way into the Parliament important than it would otherwise be. No other itself. I find it absolutely extraordinary that any situation would arise such as this where Mr decent Speaker could permit debate to be Speaker would have to clearly indicate his forced on three dissent motions that have not conflicts of interest and step aside. However, yet appeared on the Notice Paper. They have because the Speaker participates in the not even had time to go to the Government voting, if it is a tied vote his vote will be Printer, but the Parliament will dispatch them counted this evening. That does not get away with this business tonight. from the importance of Mr Speaker's role this As the honourable member for evening. The basic, primary role of the Indooroopilly said, the first responsibility of the Speaker is to uphold members' right to Speaker is to protect the rights of members. debate, the most basic right of all The Premier spoke the truth the other day. He parliamentarians in this place. said that in the old days, before democracy, 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3567 the Speaker was the king's man. Well, things This can be prevented by have not changed much in Queensland, Mr mechanisms such as an impartial Speaker. Speaker. Because of its necessary Mr Springborg: Back to the future. numerical strength, the Government in a parliamentary democracy is obviously able Mr BORBIDGE: Back to the future, to change or ignore the rules." because the Speaker is the Premier's man. The Speaker is the Labor AWU member for That is what is happening tonight. The Redcliffe. Government, having ignored the rules all week, is changing the rules so that tonight we It is with great regret that we are seeing are being forced to debate notices of motion this prostitution of the parliamentary process that have not even yet been printed. Tony tonight. The honourable member for Fitzgerald went on to say— Indooroopilly referred earlier to the tactics of this Government, and it is worthy of repetition. "In these circumstances the authority This Premier, in what was a fraudulent effort to and neutrality of the 'referee' is of critical obtain his commission, gave certain importance. The Speaker cannot afford to commitments to the honourable member for adopt a partisan role, either voluntarily, or Nicklin. The honourable member for Nicklin in order to retain the confidence and was given a cheque that has bounced. The support of the Government party. If the fact is that those basic commitments to the Speaker enters the arena, there is a risk honourable member for Nicklin, given to him that Parliament will not be able to make so that Mr Beattie could achieve the the Government accountable." commission of Premier of this State, have Tony Fitzgerald went on to say— been broken. "One of the functions of any Mr Beattie promised new standards in opposition party in Parliament is to accountability. He promised new standards in expose errors and misconduct by public the Parliament. He promised a better standard officials. Unless the Opposition can of democracy in Queensland. As the discover what has happened or is honourable member for Indooroopilly pointed happening and give consideration to out, during the two and a half years of this events with expert assistance, it cannot scandal-ridden Government we have seen the expose and criticize activities and the guillotine applied some 27 times. On the people involved. It is effectively prevented figures I have in front of me, that is more than from doing its job. in the six and a half years of the Goss ... the Opposition is dependent for administration, in which the gag was applied information on the Government's own some 22 times. accounting to Parliament." We hear the member for Brisbane Central talk about how bad the National/Liberal He goes on to say— coalition Government was. In the 28 months of "It is essential that the Government is the previous coalition Government the not able to claim that secrecy is necessary guillotine was applied twice. The honourable when the only thing at risk is the exposure member for Brisbane Central leads a faction- of a blunder or a crime." ridden, corrupt administration—a political party The Labor Party has learnt nothing. The that will do anything to avoid appropriate Labor Party has betrayed the spirit of scrutiny in this place. Fitzgerald. Mr Speaker, it is with regret that I The other day I referred to the findings of have to say that you have betrayed the spirit the Fitzgerald inquiry. Mr Speaker, I will refer to of Fitzgerald and you have betrayed the rights them again because you were not in the chair of members in this place to speak out in and I believe you should have heard them. debate, which is one of the most basic and The Fitzgerald report used to be championed fundamental rights in parliamentary democracy by Labor and used to be championed by the that Speakers should be protecting. Attorney-General, who seconded the motion The questions the Opposition sought to we are now debating. Let us see what the raise were fair. What we need to know, and Fitzgerald report says in part about the role of what will be uncovered in time, is whether this Parliament. It states— Government cheated and rorted its way into "Any Government may use its office. That is the question. Mr Speaker, a dominance in the Parliament and its number of questions were ruled out of order by control of public resources to stifle and you this week that did not relate to matters neuter effective criticism by the that had been canvassed in respect of the Opposition. Shepherdson inquiry. They had not been 3568 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000 previously canvassed in public. They were Petersen era permitted with regard to the legitimate questions that delved into the right Fitzgerald inquiry. I will go through them. of the Government to be the Government of Wayne Goss asked 33 questions. Tommy this State and into the credibility of the Premier Burns asked 14 questions. Nev Warburton himself. asked four questions. Les Yewdale asked two Right through this week we have seen the questions. Bob Gibbs, our trade commissioner Premier's three monkeys defence. He saw no in North America, asked two questions. evil, he heard no evil, he spoke no "Digger" Davis asked one question. Ken evil—despite the fact that he was party Hayward asked one question. That is a total of secretary for eight years, despite the fact that 57 questions. Fifty-seven questions were he has served in this Parliament since 1989, permitted to be asked in respect of the despite the fact that he has been leader of the conduct of the Fitzgerald inquiry under the so- Labor Party for four years, and despite the fact called bad old days of the Bjelke-Petersen that he has been a member of the Executive Government. And those opposite lecture us on and a Minister now for some five years. He accountability! What frauds! What hypocrites! saw no evil, he heard no evil, he spoke no evil. Let us look at some of the topics that He was just a spectator on the veranda as the were raised. Questions were asked about the mailman walked past, as the ballots were release of the report. There was a general rorted and picked up and delivered and question on the Fitzgerald inquiry. There was abused—not only in terms of internal matters another question on the Fitzgerald inquiry from within the Labor Party to do with preselection the then Leader of the Opposition. There were but indeed in terms of the electoral roll and questions from the then Deputy Leader of the political corruption itself. Opposition on indemnities from prosecution. Questions ruled out of order related to a There were questions from the then Leader of residence at 42 Willard Street, Carina Heights. the Opposition on Crown privilege. There were Questions ruled out of order related to the questions from the then Leader of the association of certain people at that address Opposition on the Police Minister. There was with the Premier's office. We know that the another question from Mr Warburton on public Premier, as parliamentary leader of the Labor interest immunity. There were questions on Party, serves on the administrative committee extension of the terms of reference. It goes on of the Labor Party. We also know that under and on and on. It is on the parliamentary Labor rules it is the administrative committee record. of the Labor Party that approves or rejects That shows that in the so-called bad old members. So what we have is a man who days of the Bjelke-Petersen Government the claims the three monkeys defence but who in Opposition of the day could ask 57 questions reality sat on the administrative committee— relating to matters before, relative to or the committee that approved corrupt party relevant to the Fitzgerald commission of memberships that may then have been used inquiry. What we are seeing here tonight is a to corrupt the electoral rolls. And the Premier total prostitution of the political process. tries to tell us that he believes in standards! Let us go back to Connolly/Ryan. We saw it again today. He said that there Remember that dreadful Borbidge had been no direct evidence against the Government that gagged only two Bills in two member for Townsville. There has been direct and a half years rather than 26 Bills in two evidence from two witnesses! But does the and a half years under this Government? Premier do anything? No. He will not do Let us have a look at the number of anything because he knows that once the first questions that were asked during the Labor office-bearer falls there will be a domino Carruthers/Connolly/Ryan inquiry in respect of effect right across his Government and, like a the memorandum of understanding and deck of cards, they will start to fall—left, right Concerned Citizens for Mundingburra. and centre. The Leader of the Opposition, the current I have taken the liberty of going back and Premier, asked 14 questions. The current looking at questions that were approved in Police Minister asked seven questions. The respect of inquiries and matters that the current Deputy Premier, then Deputy Leader of Parliament has been able to discuss. It was the Opposition, asked seven questions. The interesting this morning to hear a political Attorney-General—the man who will gag us by commentator talk about the dreadful Speakers seconding this motion tonight—did he ask of the Bjelke-Petersen era. I thought it might one, two, three, four, five, six or seven be interesting to look at the number of questions? He asked eight questions. The questions that the Speakers in the Bjelke- great civil libertarian asked eight questions. Mr 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3569

Hamill asked two questions, Mr Livingstone integrity. We are seeing the integrity of the asked one question, Mr Wells asked one Labor Party each day in another place being question and Mr Sullivan asked one question. exposed before the people of Queensland. It is similar to the Demtel man—"But wait, Those opposite talk about the promises there's more." We had a situation in respect of they made to give Queensland a better these issues where the previous Government standard of Government and a better standard not only permitted those questions to be of Parliament. They have betrayed those asked but also allowed a range of promises. They have betrayed the Adjournment debates, a range of MPI commitments that they made to the debates, a range of two-minute speeches honourable member for Nicklin. What we see debates, a range of 6 o'clock debates and now is a circling of the wagons. They know that also no confidence motions. I have the as soon as one of them is caught out that will information here. put in place a domino effect and the Beattie Among the major participants was the Government will start to fall over like a house Honourable M. J. Foley. Who were the other of cards. participants? One was the Leader of the Mr Mackenroth interjected. Opposition, the member for Brisbane Central. Mr BORBIDGE: The Leader of the House Who was another major contributor in respect interjects. I just say to the Leader of the House of parliamentary criticism? Mr Elder. We had a that he wants to be very, very careful indeed. speech headed "Inquiry into the Criminal What we are seeing is a faction-ridden Justice Commission", which was an MPI led by Government that has only been able to deliver the Honourable J. P. Elder, Deputy Leader of for its mates. Having been able to deliver for its the Opposition. He went on for a while. mates, it is now all coming undone. Well might Then we had another appearance by the the unions demonstrate outside. Well might Attorney-General, Mr Foley. I turn the page. I they picket this Parliament over the policies of come to "Matters of Public Interest"—the this Government. The reality is that there are Honourable M. J. Foley. I turn over a bit now serious doubts as to whether this further, and what do we have next? We have Government has any legitimacy at all. "Motion of No Confidence in the Time expired. Government"—Mr Beattie. I wonder who seconded Mr Beattie's motion of no Dr WATSON (Moggill—LP) (Leader of the confidence in the Government? It was a very Liberal Party) (9.05 p.m.): Mr Speaker— long speech. Here it is—the Honourable J. P. Mr SPEAKER: Order! I think the member Elder. for Nerang jumped first. I am happy to call Here we have reams of paper which show whichever one of you— that the Opposition in the days of conservative Dr WATSON: This is Labor's quid pro Governments was given the opportunity that quo— this Labor Government is not permitting this Hon. T. M. MACKENROTH (Chatsworth— Opposition to have. ALP) (Minister for Communication and Mr Veivers: Matt, it's no wonder you Information, Local Government and Planning advocate prostitution. and Minister for Sport) (9.05 p.m.): I move— Mr BORBIDGE: That was one of the most "That the question be put." succinct observations that has been made Dr WATSON: What is this—another gag? during the life of this Parliament. I congratulate the member for Southport for his incisive Mr BORBIDGE: I rise to a point of order. determination of the moral fibre of the The honourable member for Moggill has the Attorney-General. call. This is a disgrace. The people of Dr WATSON: If that is the way you want Queensland deserve better. The Parliament of to treat the Parliament— Queensland deserves better. The Opposition Question—That the question be now must be permitted to do its job. This week we put—and the House divided— have been prevented from doing our job by AYES, 40—Attwood, Beattie, Bligh, Boyle, Braddy, people who will go down in history as some of Bredhauer, Briskey, Clark, J. Cunningham, Edmond, the greatest political hypocrites and frauds that Elder, Fenlon, Foley, Fouras, Hamill, Hayward, Kaiser, this State has ever seen. Lavarch, Lucas, Mackenroth, McGrady, Mickel, Miller, Mulherin, Musgrove, Nelson-Carr, Palaszczuk, Those opposite talk about principles. They Pearce, Pitt, Reeves, Roberts, Robertson, Rose, have none! They talk about standards. They Schwarten, Spence, Struthers, Welford, Wells. do not have standards! They talk about Tellers: Sullivan, Purcell 3570 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000

NOES, 40—Beanland, Black, Borbidge, Connor, Leader of the Opposition on 4 Cooper, E. Cunningham, Davidson, Elliott, Feldman, October be dissented from; Gamin, Grice, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, Johnson, Kingston, Knuth, Laming, Lester, Lingard, (5) That Mr Speaker's ruling that the Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, Paff, Pratt, Prenzler, Leader of the Liberal Party's question Rowell, Santoro, Seeney, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, was out of order be dissented from; Springborg, Stephan, Turner, Veivers, Watson, (6) That the Speaker's ruling on 4 Wellington. Tellers: Baumann, Hegarty October to disallow a question asked The numbers being equal, Mr Speaker by me of the Minister for Tourism and cast his vote with the Ayes. Racing be dissented from; Resolved in the affirmative. (7) That Mr Speaker's ruling of 4 October Question—That Mr Mackenroth's motion to disallow a question from the be agreed to—put; and the House divided— Deputy Leader of the Opposition be dissented from; AYES, 40—Attwood, Beattie, Bligh, Boyle, Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, Clark, J. Cunningham, Edmond, (8) That Mr Speaker's ruling to disallow Elder, Fenlon, Foley, Fouras, Hamill, Hayward, Kaiser, questions on notice submitted by Lavarch, Lucas, Mackenroth, McGrady, Mickel, members of the Opposition on 4 Miller, Mulherin, Musgrove, Nelson-Carr, Palaszczuk, October 2000 be dissented from; Pearce, Pitt, Reeves, Roberts, Robertson, Rose, (9) That Mr Speaker's ruling that the Schwarten, Spence, Struthers, Welford, Wells. Tellers: Sullivan, Purcell Leader of the Liberal Party's question on 5 October 2000 was out of order NOES, 40—Beanland, Black, Borbidge, Connor, be dissented from; and Cooper, E. Cunningham, Davidson, Elliott, Feldman, Gamin, Grice, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, Johnson, (10) That Mr Speaker's ruling of 5 October Kingston, Knuth, Laming, Lester, Lingard, 2000 to disallow a question from the Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, Paff, Pratt, Prenzler, Member for Callide to the Deputy Rowell, Santoro, Seeney, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, Premier be dissented from." Springborg, Stephan, Turner, Veivers, Watson, Wellington. Tellers: Baumann, Hegarty I have moved notices of motion Nos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, on today's Notice Paper and The numbers being equal, Mr Speaker notices of motion Nos. 8, 9 and 10 on cast his vote with the Ayes. tomorrow's Notice Paper, which has not yet Resolved in the affirmative. even been printed! Not yet even been printed! I want to say what a disgraceful performance it is for the casting vote of a Motions of Dissent (Cognate Debate) Speaker in this Parliament to be used in the Hon. R. E. BORBIDGE (Surfers manner in which it has been tonight. I just say Paradise—NPA) (Leader of the Opposition) to the Government members opposite that (9.17 p.m.): On this shameful night in the they might be able to close down this place, Queensland Parliament, I move— they might be able to use their numbers here, Government Members: Ha, ha! but there is another place where they cannot use their numbers—another place down the Mr BORBIDGE: They are laughing. They road. What is more, there is a very important think it is funny. They have just treated the place where they cannot use their numbers: Parliament with absolute contempt like the that is in the court of popular opinion in terms pack of rorters and cheats that they are. of the homes and the lives of Queenslanders I move— who will be passing judgment on this seedy, "(1) That Mr Speaker's ruling of 3 October dodgy Government sometime within the next to disallow two questions from the few months. Leader of the Opposition be All the Opposition has sought to do this dissented from; week is exercise the same privileges that have (2) That Mr Speaker's ruling that the been extended to the Labor Party in Leader of the Liberal Party's question Opposition by the Bjelke-Petersen was out of order be dissented from; Government and by the Borbidge Government. We were denied that (3) That Mr Speaker's decision to rule opportunity. out of order questions on notice We did not seek to canvass in this place submitted by members of the evidence that was being given at the Opposition be dissented from; Shepherdson inquiry. We did not wish to (4) That Mr Speaker's decision to rule canvass in this place matters that were subject out of order a question from the to cross-examination in the Shepherdson 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3571 inquiry. We sought only to raise new issues are destroying your credibility outside. You are and broad issues that in no way whatsoever destroying the standing of this Parliament impacted on the work of the Shepherdson outside by making the Parliament totally inquiry. We sought only to exercise the rights unworkable. As each day goes by, the Labor that Oppositions have been granted, Party is being exposed as the pack of cheats it notwithstanding previous Speakers' rulings, is. under previous Governments. Mr SPEAKER: Your time has expired. Mr Speaker, I understand that on Monday Have you a seconder for that motion? this week an inquiry was made of your office Dr WATSON (Moggill—LP) (Leader of the by the media as to whether there would be Liberal Party) (9.23 p.m.): I second it. any restriction on the Opposition. I understand that the advice tendered was: no. But that Mr SPEAKER: You need a seconder. advice was changed that evening, presumably Dr WATSON: I will second it. This is after the caucus meeting. We have the Labor's quid pro quo. situation where the Premier says, "The Mr SPEAKER: Did you second it? Speaker is objective. The Speaker is nothing to do with the Executive." Mr Premier knows Dr WATSON: Yes, I second the motion full well that the Speaker is the Labor member moved by the Leader of the Opposition. This is for Redcliffe, that the Speaker is the AWU Labor's quid pro quo. The Speaker has been member for Redcliffe. I think that today the protecting the Government all week and now press summed up the state of democracy in the Government is protecting the Speaker. Queensland very well. Matthew Franklin This is a Government of the mates, by the wrote— mates, for the mates. It is as simple as that. "If it was an indication of Hollis's Mr Speaker, I must admit that I was understanding of the level of fairness amazed by some of your rulings this week, but required of a Speaker, then Hollis is a dud perhaps the most amazing one was on the and a planned no confidence motion question that I asked the Deputy Premier against him ought to be passed yesterday—a very simple question. I asked the unanimously." Deputy Premier whether he could inform the House if he has ever employed and, if so, in Further, the editorial in the Courier-Mail what capacity, Mr Lee Bermingham. That was states— not an issue that has been canvassed in the "There is no obligation on speakers inquiry. It was not related to a question that to apply the sub judice rule. They can use had been canvassed in evidence in the inquiry their discretion. But Mr Hollis has ruled out but a simple question about whether or not an of order parliamentary debate on matters individual had been employed by the Deputy related to alleged electoral rorting even Premier. What happened? Mr Speaker ruled though these matters have not even that out of order. That is funny because the been mentioned at the inquiry. To make it Deputy Premier was apparently not only willing worse, Mr Hollis has then allowed to answer it but also anxious to answer it. ministers to answer, in the guise of raising Later, when he was asked a question by the matters of privilege, Opposition questions member for Lytton, despite the Speaker's he had previously ruled were sub judice. If ruling that it was sub judice, the Deputy a question is sub judice, how can an Premier answered the question. He said— answer to the question not be?" "When I moved into the Ministry in The editorial goes on to state— 1992, Lee Bermingham was working in "But his performance this week has the Ministry." been so bad no Queenslander can have At least the Deputy Premier confirmed the fact confidence in him." that he was working in the Ministry when he That was before the assault tonight on the became Minister. He was working for the Goss standards of this place by the political grave Government. Of course, the Deputy Premier robbers opposite. Mr Speaker, that was before then tried to palm it off by blaming the the assault on the principles and the standards member for Burnett, and he got that wrong. of Parliament by Labor members in this Mr Davidson: He worked with them for House, including the Premier and including two years since they have been in you. Government Mr Speaker, the Government will win Dr WATSON: He worked for them for two tonight, because it has the numbers. Mr years since Labor has been in Government. Speaker, you will win the vote in here, but you The Deputy Premier tried to put it over to the 3572 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000 member for Burnett. Then, of course, he week, we moved them because we know that realised that he got that wrong. So the Deputy Mr Speaker should have known that it was Premier came back into the Parliament, in the wrong. In fact, Mr Speaker, you probably did middle of the Treasurer introducing Bills, and know that it was wrong, but you were doing the asked leave to correct his previous statement. bidding of the Government. Mr Speaker, that Again, the Deputy Premier misled the is the problem with the way in which you have Parliament. He corrected it by saying that it gone about handling what has happened this was not Doug Slack; it was actually Bruce week. Quite simply the problem is this: the Davidson's Ministry. Of course, that was wrong, ALP has corrupted the electoral roll, the ALP too. has corrupted the Electoral Commission and As the member for Toowoomba South the ALP is now corrupting the Parliament. said, all this was supposed to be sub judice. Time expired. Mr Borbidge: He has been talking to Hon. P. D. BEATTIE (Brisbane Central— Joan Budd too much. ALP) (Premier) (9.29 p.m.): I rise to oppose the Dr WATSON: I am not quite sure if the motion that has been moved. There are Speaker has been talking to Joan Budd, but serious issues before the Shepherdson inquiry. maybe the Deputy Premier has. So what we Opposition members interjected. have in this situation is a question ruled out of Mr BEATTIE: It is interesting to note that I order on the basis of sub judice, the Deputy have listened in silence to the first two Premier answering it in response to another speakers, yet the members opposite have question and his return into the Parliament to continued their disruption. This week, they answer it yet again. In no case was any of that have come into this place with the strategy to ruled sub judice. disrupt Parliament. They have chanted; they Of course, it is no wonder that the Courier- have had a deliberate strategy to disrupt Mail in its editorial today stated— Parliament. Even now I cannot be heard when "... Opposition questions he had making my contribution. previously ruled were sub judice. If a Opposition members interjected. question was sub judice, how can an Mr BEATTIE: Here we go. Mr Speaker, answer to the question not be?" listen to the noise. Listen to the riot. Mr That was a pretty reasonable conclusion to Speaker, I am surprised that you can even make. At the time, everybody in the House hear the questions that are asked in this questioned that. House of a morning. On Tuesday and Of course, it was not just restricted to the Wednesday, the disgraceful chanting— Deputy Premier, we also had the Minister for Opposition members interjected. Tourism making a similar kind of statement. Mr BEATTIE: We can still hear their noise. When she was asked a question by the Given the disgraceful chanting from the member for Caloundra, despite the fact that Opposition on Tuesday and Wednesday, Mr the question was ruled sub judice, the Minister Speaker, I cannot understand how you could for Tourism could not wait to get up and try to have made any ruling; you could not have answer it. She even raised a point of privilege heard them. in order to do so. Again, that was referred to quite properly in the Courier-Mail today. Opposition members interjected. An Opposition member: She knew that Mr BEATTIE: Here they go. Listen to their the question wasn't out of order. disgraceful behaviour. Dr WATSON: The Minister knew that the Mr Horan interjected. question was not out of order, and everyone Mr BEATTIE: The member for else in the House knew that the question was Toowoomba South and other Opposition not out of order. Everyone in the House knew members are screaming. This week they that the questions to the Deputy Premier and chanted and disrupted the Parliament purely the Minister for Tourism were reasonable. They for political reasons. were not sub judice. They should not have been ruled sub judice. Everyone in the gallery Mr Davidson interjected. and everyone else knew that the Speaker of Mr BEATTIE: The member for Noosa and this House got it wrong. other honourable members are continuing to That is why we are moving these dissent disrupt this Parliament to the extent that they motions. We moved the dissent motions not are disrupting any contribution that I or any of because we want to come in here and have a my Ministers make. debate on a Thursday night after a tough Opposition members interjected. 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3573

Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for speakers. That is exactly the way in which they Southport will cease interjecting. have behaved this week. They are an Mr Veivers: I did not say a word. embarrassment to the Parliament and their constituents. They are denigrating the proud Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will institution of Parliament. As I said, Mr Speaker, cease interjecting. all they are doing is attacking the independent Mr BEATTIE: The people of Queensland umpire. want these issues determined by the Opposition members interjected. Shepherdson inquiry—the independently constituted inquiry. That is where they want Mr BEATTIE: The rabble is still at it. They these matters determined, not by Rob attack the independent umpire. That is you, Mr Borbidge, the Leader of the Opposition, or by Speaker. They attack this institution. other politicians. Politicians should not make Opposition members interjected. these determinations. The behaviour of the Opposition this week— Mr BEATTIE: They are making noise again. They are simply trying to disrupt the Mr Horan interjected. Parliament. Let the people of Queensland Mr BEATTIE: The member for know that I sat in silence and listened to the Toowoomba South is again seeking to disrupt contributions of their first two speakers, and all the Parliament. His constituents would want to they have done is try to heckle me down since see support for the institution of Parliament, I started. not to see it being denigrated. Opposition members interjected. Opposition members interjected. Mr BEATTIE: Every one of them is trying Mr BEATTIE: Here they go again, Mr to heckle down the process, because they do Speaker. not respect this institution. Mr SPEAKER: Order! On 3 April 1996, in the first week's sitting Mr BEATTIE: All they are seeking to do is of Parliament under the new Borbidge denigrate the Parliament. Government, Speaker Turner gave a ruling on an inquiry being carried out by the Criminal Mr Davidson interjected. Justice Commission. Speaker Turner ruled— Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Noosa! "The matter of the memorandum of understanding between the Premier and Mr BEATTIE: That has been why this the Police Minister and the Police Union is House has been in disrepute this week. It is now the subject of inquiry by the CJC and because of the behaviour of the Opposition. should not be referred to in the House." There has been no leadership from the Leader of the Opposition or anyone else on their side. That is the end of the story. The Speaker They have come in here to disrupt the made his ruling in response to an attempt by Parliament for cheap political gain. That is why me as Opposition Leader to have Parliament the people of Queensland want these issues refer to the inquiry matters that we believed determined by the Shepherdson inquiry—the were appropriate for the inquiry to investigate. independent inquiry—and not determined by Mr Borbidge interjected. Rob Borbidge. That is the difference. On 3 Mr BEATTIE: The Leader of the April 1996, in the first week's sitting— Opposition is interjecting on every occasion. I Mr Borbidge interjected. listened in silence. He is a wrecker and he is at Mr Hegarty interjected. it again. I sought to raise certain questions. I made it clear that we did not want to debate Mr BEATTIE: The Leader of the the inquiry material itself. The Speaker ruled Opposition and the Opposition Whip continue that that particular matter was sub judice. to disrupt on every occasion. They have Indeed, when we look at the relevant key played a wrecker's role all week. They are dates of 22 April, when the hearing of playing a wrecker's role in this debate. They evidence started, and 3 September, when the have defamed Parliament. Is it any wonder the open hearings closed, there were two people in the gallery, including the children questions without notice allowed by the who come here, are embarrassed by members Speaker. Mr Speaker, your rulings are of the Opposition? Tonight we are having a absolutely consistent. debate on your role, Mr Speaker, in controlling this Parliament, and in this very debate the Opposition members interjected. Opposition members heckle, scream and Mr BEATTIE: Here they go again. Listen interject to try to scream down Government to the rabble. 3574 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000

Mr SPRINGBORG (Warwick—NPA) National Party Speaker allowed the question. (Deputy Leader of the Opposition) (9.33 p.m.): Not only did he allow the question; during that What gross hypocrisy we have just heard from period he allowed reams of questions. What Queensland's own version of the pretender! was the next little gem from Opposition Leader This is the very man who in 1988 or 1989 went Goss—another one right up the snotter? Mr down behind the cow shed at Bethany. He is Goss stated— the person who made that significant "In directing a second question to the contribution to Queensland politics. What a Premier, I refer to a report in the Gold sad moment in this State's political history! Coast press last Saturday which stated Fortunately, Sir Joh had the good conscience, that the Fitzgerald inquiry is investigating good will, dignity and political principles to a number of Gold Coast ministerial deny. What has been the Premier's rezonings and associated property contribution to this Parliament in relation to developments. The report states— upholding parliamentary democracy? We all remember when the honourable member was 'The possibility of bribes the Leader of the Opposition. He came into changing hands in return for town this place with a dummy around his neck that planning approvals will be probed by was so big he had to drag it in. That was his investigating officers.' contribution to parliamentary democracy and I ask: can the Premier confirm that upholding standards. the Fitzgerald inquiry is investigating such Yesterday in this place I sought to ask a matters? Will he give an assurance that question which was unrelated to matters the Cabinet oath of secrecy will be lifted in before the inquiry. I asked this Premier relation to these investigations so that whether he had phoned Ken McElligott in Cabinet Ministers can also talk freely 1996 to say that Karen Ehrmann's about their knowledge of and involvement endorsement was safe and all fixed up with in Gold Coast and Albert Shire rezoning respect to the Labor Party disputes tribunal. decisions?" That was ruled out of order because The Premier of the day, Mr Speaker—and apparently it was a matter that was before listen to this—went on to answer the question, active consideration of the inquiry down the and there were many more of those. Your road. This is where your rulings, Mr Speaker, rulings have been completely distorted. We are so fundamentally flawed and do you no have not seen a performance like this since credit whatsoever. Goering closed down the Reichstag and had eyes only for the right-hand side of the chair Only a few moments ago in this place the and threw out members of the Opposition willy- Leader of the Opposition waved around a nilly. ream of abstracts from Hansard containing the questions asked by the Labor Party in 1988 A Government member interjected. and 1989 regarding the Fitzgerald inquiry. Let Mr SPRINGBORG: National Party us look at some of those questions and Speakers of the day were able to interpret the compare them with the questions that have conventions of this Parliament appropriately. been ruled out of order. I think honourable That is something which has not been done members will love this. over the past couple of days. Today we have On page 979 of the Hansard record for 29 demonstrated that such questions were September 1988, Mr Goss stated— allowed during the Fitzgerald inquiry. "In asking the question, I refer to Mr Speaker, because of your singular evidence before the Fitzgerald inquiry incapacity to be able to interpret and properly about the organised drug trade in espouse the precedent of this Parliament, I Queensland and previous evidence by suggest there is something that will help you Jack Herbert denying knowledge of, or with your discomfort and that of other involvement in, the drug trade. I now ask: Government members, namely, activate the if this evidence establishes that Herbert report of the Members' Ethics and was either aware of, or involved in, the Parliamentary Privileges Committee that drug trade, will he seek urgent advice recommended that this convention, which this from Commissioner Tony Fitzgerald with a Speaker has struggled to interpret, be view to withdrawing Herbert's indemnity overhauled so that only matters before a court from prosecution?" of criminal jurisdiction with a jury are sub judice. There is no other jurisdiction of which I am We would think that would have been before aware in this country where matters before an the Fitzgerald inquiry. The question was inquiry, which we can argue are not sub judice directly related. A dreadful undemocratic because we are not going to be influencing a 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3575 jury, are able to be prevented from being the Parliament. I sat and heard their asked in this Parliament. That is the way contributions in silence, but they do not want around this problem. to do the same. Time expired. Opposition members: Cheat! Cheat! Hon. J. P. ELDER (Capalaba—ALP) Cheat! (Deputy Premier and Minister for State Mr ELDER: They cannot handle Development and Minister for Trade) themselves. They really are just about (9.38 p.m.): Mr Speaker, I have just a few politically disrupting this Parliament. words— I am sure that some of the members Opposition members: Cheat! opposite would have some difficulty trying to Mr ELDER: It is obvious that they still wish work out who were the respective Speakers. to disrupt the Parliament. I wish to add just a For the record, the first was Mr Fouras, the few words to this matter, or more accurately I member for Ashgrove; the second was the wish to reiterate some words that have been former member for Nicklin, Mr Turner; and the uttered in this Parliament— third was Mr Hollis. They have all clearly "It is the advice of the Crown Solicitor articulated—as the Speaker did—the correct and the Clerk that the CJC is such a court. rulings. To use an argument about I will not countenance any dissent on this Fitzgerald—Fitzgerald clearly predates the matter. Honourable members can raise it Fouras ruling in 1991 on the Solicitor-General's as a substantive motion, otherwise I will advice. Mr Speaker, it is a difficult task that you treat it as disrespect for the Chair." have. I quote again— Mr Borbidge interjected. "In response to the Honourable Mr ELDER: There he goes. The Leader of Leader of the Opposition—I have ruled the Opposition is interjecting again. He has not that that particular matter is sub judice. changed from day one, since this started. It is The Leader of the Opposition has the a difficult task that you have, Mr Speaker. right to take anything before that Mr Connor interjected. commission of inquiry. I have ruled that reference to that matter is sub judice and Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for that it is out of order for that matter to be Nerang will cease interjecting. That is my final discussed in this Chamber." warning. Finally, I quote again— Mr ELDER: Mr Speaker, just as Solomon did, you have some tough decisions to make. "It will be seen that the Solicitor- Whether it is in Parliament or in law or on the General's opinion is that whilst it is a playing field— matter for the discretion of the Speaker, who is personally charged with the Mr Hobbs interjected. responsibility of evaluating whether any Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for particular discussions should take place in Warrego will cease interjecting. That is my final the House, if statements are to be made warning. in the House which would adversely reflect on the position of particular individuals Mr ELDER:—there comes a point at and specifically would suggest guilt of which one has to accept the umpire's decision. criminal offences, then in view of that The thing about the members of the point, the sub judice rule would be Opposition is that they never accept the relevant and the Speaker would be umpire's decision. That is their problem. They entitled, in exercising his discretion, to had an agenda here from day one, which was prevent such statements." to make it as politically focused as they could. They came in here to use this place for political For the benefit of those opposite and those on grandstanding. The members opposite would the cross-benches who have not been appreciate the opportunity—in fact, they would able—and I heard the interjections—to grasp salivate at the opportunity—to be able to come the intricacies or complexities of those into this place and smear people. That is what particular statements, let me just go through it is about, and that is what it has always been them. Those are the statements of the current about. Speaker and two former Speakers. The clear demonstration of that point has Opposition members interjected. been the member for Callide, but the person Mr ELDER: There you go, they do not who will pay the price is the Leader of the want to hear it in silence; they want to disrupt Liberal Party. He smeared someone, but he 3576 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000 did it in the Courier-Mail, and doing it in the Of course it was only on 4 October in this Courier-Mail will cost him. It will probably cost place that you, Mr Speaker, asked the Leader him a swimming pool and half a house, and of the Opposition to withdraw a comment that good luck to her, because he went in and he made by way of interjection. You indicated smeared an innocent person. Good luck to her that he used the word "fraud", I think. In fact, when she sues him for defamation, because the Leader of the Opposition simply said he deserves it. That is the difference. He "AWU" and nothing else. But if you say that should have kept his comments in the "AWU" equals "fraud", Mr Speaker, I am sure Parliament and not gone outside. that members will agree. Members on the That is what the members opposite have Government side agree, too. That is what the always wanted to do—dissent from the Leader of the Opposition said. I heard him Speaker's ruling in an act of political distinctly. No other words at all were uttered. grandstanding so that they can smear So we have the situation in which the innocent people in this Chamber. That is what Deputy Premier comes into this Chamber this they set out to do from day one. They have evening and tries to make out that this side of done that with this disruption. They have done the Chamber is somehow making a sham of it continually all week. The Opposition's tactics the sub judice ruling. Of course, sub judice have been evident to everyone in this House relates to specific issues, and no amount of and, for that matter, to those in the media. red herrings from the Deputy Premier in this The members opposite have set out to disrupt Parliament will change that. What we are the Parliament, to smear members of this seeing, in fact, are the Premier's rulings. As Parliament, and they have not changed. This you know, Mr Speaker, the Premier has been dissent motion provides the opportunity, but indicating the rulings. He has indicated that he the Speaker's ruling actually reflects two other will answer some questions and some Speakers' performances. questions have not been answered, regardless of how you feel or what rulings you wish to Mr BEANLAND (Indooroopilly—LP) make. That is the sad situation. The Premier is (9.43 p.m.): I rise to participate in this debate running this Chamber from his own seat. That and say at the outset that it is interesting that is exactly what has occurred all week. the Premier could get only four Ministers and 12 backbenchers to support him this evening. I put a question on notice on 3 October. About one third of his number were present in The question referred to the fact that the the Chamber to listen to him speak, and it is Premier had asked his staff to indicate whether no wonder. What a shameful, weak excuse of there were any matters that might be the a speech it was! No wonder they did not come subject of a CJC inquiry. There was nothing at in here this evening. They have heard what all in the question about specific issues. It was the Premier has been saying about them a simple, straightforward question in view of outside on the streets of Brisbane and in the the fact that the matter had been widely media. It is little wonder that he can muster reported in the Courier-Mail. The Premier only one third of his total parliamentary asked his staff about this matter. I asked that numbers to come in here and listen to him. question of the Minister for Families, Youth How ashamed they were! and Community Care and Minister for Disability Services and you, Mr Speaker, ruled it out of I remind the Deputy Premier that the order. In order to try to encompass your Premier was the one talking about standards. concerns, I then changed the question around It was the Premier who this week called the yesterday and again you ruled it out of order, Leader of the Opposition the "thief of public even though it made no reference to the CJC moneys". What standard does that set in inquiry. Quite clearly, Mr Speaker, this is an Parliament when that is what the Premier—the action by yourself on the directions of the person who holds himself up as the setter of Premier to save this desperate Government. It standards—called the Leader of the is all about saving the Government and trying Opposition? No doubt he goes with his tail to get around, and get out of, answering between his legs. I hope he takes his dummy questions asked in this place. It is a case of with him. He ought to go. What a shameful "save the Government at any cost". We have performance! I say to the Deputy Premier that seen the Premier's disgraceful performance in those are the sorts of standards that we have this Chamber again this evening. seen this week from the Labor Party. Those Last night in this place during the are the sorts of standards that we are seeing Adjournment debate—I did not say anything, in this disgusting battle on the Government but I sat here and listened to it very side—the battle of the factions in the Labor closely—the member for Woodridge talked Party. loudly about Labor Party preselection rules, as 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3577 well he might. He went to great lengths to talk and seek to have that adopted by the House? about a whole range of issues and apparently No, it did not. had the imprimatur of the Speaker to do so. What one finds is that the statement of He went on for a whole five minutes in great the rule remains quite broad. Indeed, let me detail. There was no comment about the fact draw Mr Speaker's attention to this very that this should have been ruled out of order. matter. When it was debated on 3 April 1996, I There was no talk about that at all. It was on raised this very question in argument before the very issue of the CJC inquiry, the Speaker Turner. Shepherdson inquiry, which is all about branch stacking, preselection rules and so forth. This Mr Hegarty interjected. is the very thing that this inquiry is about. Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Redlands will cease interjecting. That is my We are seeing double standards being final warning. applied across the board. When the Labor Party talks of standards, it means one set of Mr FOLEY: I put to him a ruling made in standards for its faction-ridden party— House of Representatives Practice at page 494, which states— Mr Springborg: And that's double standards. "The contemporary view is that a general prohibition of discussion of the Mr BEANLAND: And that is double proceedings of a royal commission is too standards—and another set of standards for broad and restricts the House unduly." the Opposition. This Labor Party Government will stoop to any lengths to survive in this That is what I argued. That view was rejected place. The Beattie Government knows that by Speaker Turner, who adopted the broad failure to keep this matter at bay in this view. What a bunch of hypocrites the Parliament will mean that these will be its last Opposition is! What the Opposition complains days. of is adherence to exactly the same statement of the sub judice rule adopted under Speaker Time expired. Turner. Hon. M. J. FOLEY (Yeronga—ALP) Let us turn to the application of the rule. (Attorney-General and Minister for Justice and The application of the rule relates to the terms Minister for The Arts) (9.48 p.m.). It is quite of reference of the CJC inquiry which, amongst touching to follow the member for Indooroopilly other things, state— speaking in defence of the institution of "Such other alleged conduct which Parliament. This was the man who refused to constitutes a criminal offence in respect of stand down as Attorney-General despite a any plebiscite conducted within the years motion of no confidence of the Parliament. 1993 to 1997." There are two fundamental questions on What have we heard from the Leader of the which this debate is turning: firstly, whether the Opposition? A reference to alleged forgery and Speaker has correctly stated the sub judice uttering of documents arising from so-called rule; and, secondly, whether the rule has been ghost voters on an electoral roll at an address correctly applied. Mr Speaker set out the sub in Carina Heights, that is, an allegation of a judice rule in Mr Speaker's statement of 3 criminal offence in relation to a matter in a October. That followed in identical terms the plebiscite conducted within the years specified statement of the sub judice rule of Speaker in the terms of reference. Accordingly, the Turner of 3 April 1996 which in turn followed Speaker ruled it out of order as being in the statement of the sub judice rule of contravention of the sub judice rule. Speaker Fouras of 19 February 1991. Throughout the course of this debate tonight, All of those statements of the rule are the same fallacy has been perpetuated, quite broad. All of them are based on the because the very use of that address—42 report of December 1976 of the Privileges Willard Street, Carina Heights—in subsequent Committee which provided that current questions carried with it the taint of the alleged proceedings before a royal commission should forgery and uttering to which reference was not be referred to in motions, debates or made. Again, the application of the sub judice questions. There is a question as to whether or rule was put. not the House adopts that as the sub judice Honourable members should not rule. As the member for Warwick correctly said, complain when the rule is applied, because it in a report dated 1997 a different view was put was the very rule applied previously which they forward by the parliamentary committee which chose not to change despite a ruling from the investigated it. But did the Government of the privileges committee and despite argument on day seek to bring that before the Parliament the point. As for the stunning hypocrisy of the 3578 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000

Opposition Leader, he seeks to quote Certainly, the issues that we are debating in references to no confidence motions in respect this House this week are issues which are of of his Government with regard to concern not only to the State of Queensland Connolly/Ryan, which occurred after the inquiry but issues which concern Australia as a whole. was finished. What we are discussing is the rorting of rolls, Time expired. State and Federal. Basically, to sum up what Erskine May is saying, the Speaker has Mrs SHELDON (Caloundra—LP) discretion in the sub judice rule and exceptions (9.54 p.m.): In my contribution to the debate have been made where it concerns issues of tonight I will be demonstrating why I disagree national importance—in this case, Queensland with the Speaker's ruling on this matter. In importance—and matters which are unlikely to doing so, I will quote from Erskine May's affect a judgment. They are the two chief Parliamentary Practice, the accepted standard issues about which a Speaker would normally for procedures in this House. I intend to show make an exception from the sub judice rule. that the Speaker's ruling yesterday was Further, the issues debated in this House were inappropriate. It did not demonstrate unlikely to affect any judgment, particularly of impartiality and, more importantly, it lowered the judge sitting on this commission. Indeed, the dignity of this House. I quote from page they were not really matters which were sub 179 of the 21st edition of Erskine May's judice. I am sure that the matters have been Parliamentary Practice, which says under the fully canvassed in the press and I am sure that heading "Speaker of the House of whatever is said here is not likely to affect any Commons"— ruling that the judge on this commission would "The Speaker of the House of make. Commons is the representative of the I now move to the exception of an issue House itself in its powers, proceedings of national importance. I have already and dignity." demonstrated to the House that any rorting of I repeat the word "dignity", because one of the the rolls, Federal or State, is an issue of most important roles of the Speaker is to national importance. There is nothing more uphold the dignity of the Parliament. Members important to the democratic process than the will hear more about dignity, because what I integrity of the electoral roll. There is nothing am asserting is that this Speaker is not more important to a democracy than its upholding the dignity of this House with his democratic process. There is no more rulings. I again quote from Erskine May at important issue than what we are dealing with page 180, which says— here. Further, I move to the issue relating to "The chief characteristics attached to the dignity of the House. To do this, I wish to the office of the Speaker in the House of quote from the Oxford Dictionary which defines Commons are authority and impartiality." "dignity" as "true worth, excellence or high rank or estimation". The question is: did the So if there is any doubt that the Speaker must Speaker's ruling in the cases we have cited act with impartiality, one needs only to look at demonstrate true worth, excellence, high rank Erskine May to have that demonstrated. or estimation? That certainly is the question. Besides, it is plain commonsense that the To demonstrate how independent observers moment the Speaker demonstrates bias or regarded the Speaker's ruling in this regard, I partisan politics he is quite clearly unfit for the now quote from the comment by Matthew job. Franklin in the Courier-Mail. Matthew Franklin's I will again quote from Erskine May, this comment in today's Courier-Mail states— time page 326, which says under the heading "Ray Hollis is in danger of proving he "Matters Awaiting Judicial Decision"— is Queensland Parliament's worst Speaker "This rule may be waived at the in recent history." discretion of the Chair." Further, the comment raised real questions Erskine May then goes on to discuss the types about his ability to properly control Parliament of circumstances when the sub judice rule can and parliamentary debate in a fair and be waived. Again I quote from Erskine May, impartial manner. which says— The word "impartially" comes up again "Exceptions have, for example, been and again. I remind the House that the made on matters ... which relate to Speaker is, according to Erskine May— Ministerial decisions or concern issues of "... the representative of the House itself, national importance." in its powers, proceedings and dignity." 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3579

When attempts are made to stifle debate on ruling in the newspaper. He never accepted anything that may relate to these matters, the fact that Speaker Hollis had ruled that that rulings have to be made which are indeed was sub judice. worthy of the position. Finally, the Courier-Mail I understand, as the member for Warwick editorial sums it up by saying that the said before, that we have a sub judice Speaker's performance this week has been so convention that goes back to 1976. There bad that no Queenslander can have have been arguments about that. I was on the confidence in him. committee that suggested we ought to change Time expired. it. That committee presented its report when the coalition was in Government, but the Hon. J. FOURAS (Ashgrove—ALP) Government did not make that change. So the (9.59 p.m.): I note the comments made earlier convention we have now is the 1976 by the Leader of the Opposition. He stated convention, which is very much like the House that what has been happening in the of Representatives convention and the Senate Parliament over the past three days is making convention. the Parliament unworkable. On five occasions recently the Leader of the Opposition has risen We talk in this place about having respect in this Parliament after question time to raise a for the authority and the dignity of the Chair. matter of privilege suddenly arising in order to The first question asked by the Leader of the take up the time of the House; he acted in a Opposition after the ruling of sub judice was very disruptive way. On none of those made implied that corrupt practices were being occasions did he actually raise a genuine carried out by the Minister for Local matter of privilege suddenly arising. In fact, on Government, Terry Mackenroth. Anybody in one of those occasions the member for this House who knows Terry Mackenroth and Gladstone actually missed an opportunity to the respect he has of his branch membership speak for five minutes in a debate because would understand that there is no way in the the Opposition Leader was cutting into the world Terry Mackenroth would ever be time allocated to Government business. concerned about preselections. He is a very good local member and is highly respected, I think it is very hypocritical of the Leader yet those opposite came along here and tried of the Opposition to come into this House and to smear him. claim the high moral ground in relation to making this Parliament unworkable. When Mr Borbidge: No, just ask a question. somebody rises to take a point of order when Mr FOURAS: No, those opposite wanted the Leader of the Opposition is on his feet, he to smear him. They were making allegations of never resumes his seat. He will continue a criminal offence. I will quote the opinion of talking and then say, "What is the point of the Solicitor-General given in 1991 in relation order about?" He is asked on so many to the sub judice rule. It states— occasions to resume his seat, to play the "... if statements are to be made in the game, and he refuses to play the game— House which would adversely reflect on again, making the Parliament unworkable. the position of particular individuals and What nonsense. specifically would suggest guilt of criminal I note that earlier this week the Leader of offences, then in view of that point, the the Opposition made the wonderful statement, sub judice rule would be relevant ..." which was quoted in the Courier-Mail, that 23 The Leader of the Opposition did that with his questions were asked in relation to the first question. His hands are not clean at all, Carruthers inquiry. While he did not include two because he came along here to smear, to questions put on notice, the figures were misrepresent and to— correct. But as the Speaker stated in this House, on review it is apparent that only two of Mr BORBIDGE: Mr Speaker, I rise to a those questions were asked at the time the point of order. I find that particular comment hearing was being conducted. Both of those offensive. questions related to who was going to pay the Mr FOURAS: I withdraw. I understand the costs. This is another classic example of Standing Orders. What we have to draw from misinformation, of misusing what has are the rulings made since the inception of this happened in this place. sub judice convention. I would argue in another debate that we should change it, but We knew before this week of this is the convention we have. parliamentary sittings that the Leader of the Opposition did not want a ruling of sub judice Mr Borbidge: Change it tonight. made in relation to issues pertaining to the Mr FOURAS: The current Opposition was Shepherdson inquiry. He pre-empted that not willing to change it at the time of the 3580 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000

Carruthers inquiry. The member for Surfers few moments in this debate to make a few Paradise has the most elastic principles I have points relating to your rulings. I take this ever seen. He was not willing to change it opportunity to acknowledge the apology you then, but he is willing to come in here and use made at 2.30 today relative to my removal this place to smear a person such as the from this place and Standing Order 123A(3). I Minister for Local Government. acknowledge the apology you made at 2.30. It Mr BORBIDGE: Mr Speaker, again I take was directed to me in this Parliament. I also offence at that. I merely asked him a question. make mention of the fact that you did call into I find that offensive and I ask that it be question the Hansard staff in respect of withdrawn. making corrections. It turns out that Hansard was right and you were wrong. I assume that Mr FOURAS: I withdraw. But in his the apology you directed to me will also be question the Leader of the Opposition implied directed to them—not just because tomorrow that the Minister for Local Government had is Alan Watson's last day but also because all difficulty holding his preselection. He won that of the Hansard reporters are head and preselection by 80 votes to three. shoulders above just about everyone in this Time expired. place and, as far as I am concerned, their integrity is second to none. When their integrity Mr WELLINGTON (Nicklin—IND) is called into question it should be corrected. I (10.04 p.m.): I rise to participate in the debate sincerely hope it will be done on the record. on the motion of dissent from the Speaker's ruling. I have taken time to read Hansard's I also make a point about the support the records of the parliamentary debates of Government is getting from its Ministers, which Tuesday and Wednesday and I have listened is next to none. It is very evident, very to the debate today. When doing so I have noticeable and very obvious. One would think asked myself the question, "Do I think that, when questions were asked of those questions asked or answers provided to some Ministers and you ruled that those questions questions during this debate could cover the are sub judice, those people would have used subject matter currently the subject of the the opportunity provided by the debate tonight Shepherdson inquiry?" to defend themselves. They were not even capable or even wanting— I believe that some of the questions the subject of this debate do involve part or total Mr Borbidge: They might be consulting answers which may cover matters the subject their legal advisers. of the Shepherdson inquiry and, accordingly, Mr COOPER: They could be consulting in relation to those total questions or parts their legal advisers, but they could have used thereof I do support some of the Speaker's the Parliament to defend themselves and rulings. But I place on the public record that I make the point. When I was in Government do not agree with all of the Speaker's rulings and questions were directed at me, I was only and I do not condone in any way the gagging too happy to answer them. The last thing I of this debate. I will be supporting the would want is to have a question asked by the Opposition 100% when the vote is finally taken Opposition and to be sat down and not given tonight. the chance to answer it, because I like to We can talk in this Chamber for as long defend myself and I am perfectly capable of as time will permit. I reflect on the past two and doing so. It is quite obvious that people on the a half years and the number of times the gag other side of the House are totally incapable of has been applied. In the past we may have defending themselves and are quite happy not thought Queenslanders were not aware of to have to show the necessary courage to do what was happening in this Chamber. I do not so. I think that very definitely reflects on them. believe that is possible today. Today all As the member for Nicklin said, they will be Queenslanders are watching—looking and judged in another place at another time. listening. The next election will come sooner I fully endorse the remarks made by the than we think and I believe at that stage all member for Nicklin tonight. It is not often that I Queenslanders will cast their vote on whether do that. I think he is being honest and open, they believe this Government has performed, and he does have the integrity to realise when and the Opposition accordingly. I will say no this Parliament has been abused. The more in order to allow someone else the Parliament has been abused, Mr Speaker, by chance to speak in the remaining minutes of the rulings you have made in relation to certain this debate. questions. They are legitimate questions and Hon. T. R. COOPER (Crows Nest—NPA) Ministers should be given the opportunity to (10.06 p.m.): Mr Speaker, I, too, will take just answer those questions. As I said, I would be 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3581 only too happy to be answering those This misuse of the Parliament tonight and questions. over the past few days has been about The issues being raised in another place, protecting those people who know that they at an inquiry elsewhere, have proven pretty are guilty and who know that they will be well—they are proving every day—that this shamed in that other place. Tonight, the Government is rotten and that it is corrupt, that Parliament has a stench of guilt and shame the smell of corruption is strong. There will be about it. This is the stench of guilt and shame an accounting and that accounting, if it cannot that comes from people such as the member be in this place because we are being stymied for Townsville, the member for Lytton, the and stifled in our debate, will be made member for Capalaba and the member for elsewhere by the people. Greenslopes. Those are the people who will answer in another place where they will not be The people are very good judges. They able to hide behind rulings such as you have are not stupid. They are not fools. As the given in regard to the questions which led to member for Nicklin said, they are watching and the 10 motions of dissent that we are debating they will be deciding what sort of Government tonight. You have allowed us a shamefully they want. They do not want the corrupt and short amount of time in which to debate those rotten Government that we have on the other motions. side of this Chamber. In my opinion, the ruling that you made in Your rulings epitomised the desperate relation to the question that I asked was one need that we have for an independent of the worst. The question that I asked was a Speaker. The political parties in this State will difficult question for the Deputy Premier to have to come to the realisation at some stage answer. However, it is not the Speaker's job to that we cannot continue to operate in this way. protect the Deputy Premier from difficult I do not want to reduce it to the situation of questions. Anyone who doubts that it was a having a referee in a game of football. People difficult question for the Deputy Premier to have sport on their minds as a result of the answer simply needs to remember his Olympic Games. We need a referee who will reaction. He shrunk back into his chair. He be fair to both sides. That is something we obviously did not want to answer the question. have not seen in this Parliament. That is why The Leader of the House had to call the you are not getting respect from this side of shots and give the Speaker a signal to rule the the Parliament. You cannot, and you will not, question out of order because he knew how be fair. You will not even try to be even- much trouble the Deputy Premier was in. The handed. All we ask is that we be given a fair Deputy Premier shrank back into his chair like run and a fair go. It is a pity that you are not a rabbit trying to back down his hole. He able to be fair and decent in that regard. desperately did not want to answer the Everyone on this side of the Parliament knows question. The question was ruled out of order that. I can assure you, Mr Speaker, that there by you, Mr Speaker, simply to protect the are a lot of people on the other side of the Deputy Premier from the scrutiny of this Parliament who know it. A lot of staff Parliament. members, including the attendants, are aware of it because you have not given people a fair It was a question about the Deputy go. I suggest that you have a very good look Premier; it had nothing to do with the events at yourself and try to at least lift yourself to the which are taking place in another forum. It was standard that Parliament requires. a question about the Deputy Premier's actions as the leader of a faction that is being Mr SEENEY (Callide—NPA) (10.12 p.m.): exposed as a faction of cheats. It was a I rise to support this motion of dissent from question about his role as a leader of a your rulings which ruled 10 questions out of political party that is being exposed as being order over a period of two days. One of those corrupt and rotten to the core. It was a questions was a question that I asked of the question that he obviously did not want to Deputy Premier. answer. It was a question that, in the end, he May I say that this gagging of the debate did not have to answer because he was and the denial of my opportunity to fully protected by the Chair. debate dissent from your ruling has been That is a misuse of the power that is directed at protecting cheats. It has been vested in the Chair in this Parliament. This directed at protecting cheats who will be Parliament is concerned with examining those exposed in another place at another time. difficult issues. This Parliament is about calling There is nothing surer than that they will be to account cheats such as the Deputy Premier. exposed. He will be called to account in another place. 3582 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000

There are other places where he will not have eye for one side of the Chamber and a the protection of the Chair. He will be called to different eye for the other side of the account and he will be exposed for the cheat Chamber. If we took a leaf out of the book of and the crook that he is. the former member for Nicklin this would be a Other speakers have mentioned how little great Parliament again. The former member support there is for the quite pathetic for Nicklin had a fair and equitable contributions that have been made by people administration as Speaker of this House. such as the Attorney-General. What we see I echo the words of the member for Crows tonight is a Government in disarray. There has Nest, Mr Speaker, when I say that you would been no support for the rulings that have been be wise to walk around this building and speak made by the Speaker of this House. They are to some of the fine men and women who work rulings which have been shown to be quite within the confines of this institution and see erroneous. They are rulings that cannot stand how low is the morale in this place. That has to up to any sort of logical examination. There be an indictment on your leadership and your has been no support for those rulings because responsibility for looking after the precincts of they are simply insupportable. this great institution. Mr Healy: Thirty-two questions on notice We have to ensure that we bring overruled. accountability back into this place—the accountability that it deserves. The most Mr SEENEY: Thirty-two questions on important factor is to make sure that members notice overruled, as the member for on this side of the House receive fair treatment Toowoomba North quite rightly says. during question time. It is important that we There was no attempt by the Government receive answers to our questions. Our to be accountable, despite the assurances questions should not be gagged. that are constantly given by the Premier and We have seen the gag applied 26 times despite the performances that he puts on in this year to very important legislation such as this House when he acts like an overgrown the Water Bill, the Vegetation Management circus clown. He stands up with his hand on his Bill and the Dairy Bill. These are important heart, adopting a holier-than-thou attitude and pieces of legislation that govern how we are talks about accountability and responsibility going to promote and grow our primary but, in the end, when it is put to the test, it is industries in this State. It is the productivity of meaningless. In the end he, too, will be swept our primary industries that keeps people in away by the stench of corruption, the stench of jobs in the metropolitan areas of this State. shame and the stench of guilt that is emanating from so many members on the The members of this House must be able other side of this House who belong to the to act as legislators in a fair and equitable faction of his party that will be shown to be manner. We have an elected Government. rotten to the core. It will be shown to be a However, we are not too sure how it was faction of cheats and a faction of crooks. elected. There seems to have been a fair amount of cheating. Each day we learn more Time expired. and more about this entrenched cheating. Mr JOHNSON (Gregory—NPA) There seems to be a blatant attempt to (10.17 p.m.): It is with a great deal of sadness put in place your policy of shut-down, Mr that I rise to speak in this Chamber tonight on Speaker. The Opposition will not wear a policy the Leader of the Opposition's motion of of shut-down. Our role is to be a good dissent against your ruling, Mr Speaker. One alternative Government in Opposition. We are point that I wish to emphasise is this endeavouring to do that as part of the Government's inability to recognise what it is all democratic process. The people in the about—accountability. This Government came electorate are looking on this evening. They to power two years ago on a platform of have been looking on all week. They read the accountability. It was a platform that the Courier-Mail, they watch television and they Premier still boasts about in the streets and listen to the news. I have to say to you, Mr through the media outlets in Queensland. He Speaker: it is a situation that is totally continually tells us in this Parliament what he unacceptable. sees is right and what he sees is wrong. The other thing that I want to say here It seems to me that there are two sets of this evening is that this type of intimidation and rules in this Parliament—one for the pressure seems to be a common problem for Government side and one for the Opposition Labor, but a Speaker in this Parliament side. For too long we have had Speakers represents the interests of Parliament first, not presiding over this Parliament who have one the pleadings of a Government keen to 5 Oct 2000 Mr Speaker's Ruling 3583 escape the accountability that it fraudulently contempt, straight-out contempt, for your ruling professes to embrace. as the Speaker. I have to say to you, Mr Speaker, that this You did the same thing in respect of the is the Parliament of Queensland that has had member for Currumbin when a question was the 89 of its members duly elected by the ruled out of order and she got up and people of Queensland. It is not H Division of answered that question—and did so by raising Pentridge jail. We can draw two comparisons. a matter of privilege. We are free people who are elected by the The member for Nerang at the time people of Queensland to be the legislators for correctly questioned your ruling in respect of the people of Queensland. We are not the question by the member for Moggill, yet criminals in an institution who need a fair go. you disregarded that and allowed the Deputy We need a fair go so that we can express the Premier to continue with the question. needs and the wishes of the people of Queensland. Mr Speaker, you cannot be right on both counts. You cannot give a ruling that says that I say to you, sir, as the custodian of the the question is out of order when it was put by House that it is time we had that fair and the member for Moggill and then allow the equitable outcome and I hope and pray that Minister to get up and answer a question that from here on in you will abide by the rulings of bore no relation to that asked by the member the Constitution of this State. for Moggill but answer the question that you Mr SLACK (Burnett—NPA) (10.20 p.m.): I had ruled out of order. Surely that should have have been in this House for approximately 14 evoked from you a question of contempt for years. This is my 14th year and I cannot recall the Chair and your ruling. But you did not; you one occasion where I have participated in a allowed your AWU mate— motion of dissent against the Chair, because Mr Johnson: Faction leader. basically I respect the position of the Chair and I respect the fact that the Chair can make Mr SLACK: Mr Speaker, you allowed your mistakes. But in this case I believe it is so AWU mate and faction leader to answer that blatantly wrong that I am prompted to question. That is the basic reason that I am participate in this debate. Hence, my support tonight supporting this dissent motion. for the motions of dissent. I bear no malice to you as Speaker. I take Despite the definitions that the Deputy on board the difficult position that you have. I Premier may give and other definitions about am not naive enough to believe that as a the rights and wrongs of your original ruling, Speaker elected from a party that you do not, there are two bases for the motion of dissent. as Speaker, at times consider that party. But One has been referred to by the member for you have a responsibility to this Parliament to Moggill when he spoke about the question he be seen to act impartially. In this case, you did asked. It was a simple question about Lee not act impartially and that is why the member Bermingham. That question was— for Nicklin will vote with the Opposition in support of this motion. Obviously, the "I ask the Deputy Premier and Government's numbers will support you and Minister for State Development and on your casting vote you will support yourself, Minister for Trade: can he inform the when clearly it can be logically demonstrated House if he has ever employed, and if so that in doing what you did in this particular in what capacity, Lee Bermingham?" case you have been in error. There are also That was a simple, straightforward question the other cases that have been dealt with by that I believe was outside the terms of the speakers to the debate tonight. reference of the inquiry. To support further the argument that I put My Speaker, you ruled the question out of forward, I say that you ruled the question order. You made that decision. If you were to asked by the member for Moggill out of order be consistent, where you really went wrong based on the use of the name of Lee was that you allowed the Deputy Premier to Bermingham, yet you allowed the Premier to answer a question in the twisted way that he answer a question on whether he had did from the member for Lytton after you had confidence in the member for Townsville, who already ruled that question from the member has been mentioned in the inquiry. That was for Moggill out of order. In doing that, you completely inconsistent with your first ruling on showed your blatant lack of impartiality in this the sub judice nature of the question. instance. The Deputy Premier, by answering Forgetting all the words about what constitutes the question in the way he did, paid scant sub judice, clearly in this instance the motion regard—and if you reflect on that answer you of dissent before the House tonight is will see this—and indeed it could be argued deserving of support. That is, as I said, why I 3584 Mr Speaker's Ruling 5 Oct 2000 am supporting the motions before the House However, honourable members would be well tonight. You cannot have it both ways. You aware of the report of the Members' Ethics cannot advance a legal argument to smother and Parliamentary Privileges Committee report the debate on questions purely on the premise of July 1997. One of that committee's that a person was named in an inquiry and conclusions was— then at the same time rule the question in "During its review of the sub judice order. convention, the Committee received no Time expired. evidence to suggest that the right of the House to legislate on any issue, and to Mr LAMING (Mooloolah—LP) debate any matter in the public interest, (10.26 p.m.): I rise to speak in support of these should be diminished. motions of dissent. Various Opposition members asked questions only vaguely On the contrary, submissions to the associated, if at all, with a current inquiry. Committee reinforce the Committee's view These questions were ruled out of order on the that the current application of the sub basis of matters before the CJC. judice convention in Queensland is unduly restrictive on the rights of the House, and I refer initially to our own Standing Orders that its application in particular which are, unfortunately, silent on this issue. circumstances may need to be relaxed." As it usually the case, we then refer to the The committee went on to say— House of Commons. The first point in Erskine May at page 377 says— "The Committee is of the opinion that if members continue to be prevented from "Subject to the discretion of the Chair discussing matters of public interest by and to the right of the House to legislate the application of the sub judice on any matter or to discuss any matters of convention, particularly concerning delegated legislation, matters awaiting the proceedings which may be freely adjudication of a court of law should not ventilated in the media, parliament could be brought forward in debate." be seen as being irrelevant. The parliament should not be a secondary It is clear that the Chair has a discretion and is forum for public discussion." not tightly bound by precedent. It is therefore even more important to ensure that these Honourable members will be well aware that discretionary rulings are made in line with these issues are canvassed daily in the current thinking. We should not therefore be metropolitan print and electronic media. The pursuing old precedents, as it is clearly a member for Caloundra's question has been matter of discretion of the Chair. printed word for word in the Courier-Mail. Should matters going to the CJC be regarded I then sought a more recent ruling from as sub judice? the House of Representatives and I quote Speaker Snedden in 1977, when he said— I refer again to the committee's report where it states— "The question of sub judice rule is "Evidence before the Committee difficult. Essentially it remains in the clearly indicates that the Queensland discretion of the presiding officer. Last parliament's privileges of free speech in year I made a statement in which I respect of royal commissions, tribunals, or expanded on the interpretation of the sub other bodies exercising similar functions judice rule which I would adopt. I was are unduly restricted through the determined that this national Parliament application of the sub judice convention would not silence itself on issues which as recommended by the Select would be quite competent for people to Committee of Privileges in its 1976 report. speak about outside the Parliament. On the other hand, I was anxious that there Indeed, the Committee is not should be no prejudice whatsoever to convinced that there is any reason for the persons faced with criminal action. But I convention to apply to royal commissions was not prepared to allow the mere issue and similar bodies. of a writ to stop discussion by the national . . . Parliament of any issues. Therefore I Accordingly, the Committee adopted a practice that it would not be recommends that the sub judice until a matter was set down for trial that I convention no longer apply to the would regard the sub judice rule as having proceedings of royal commission, arisen and necessarily stifle speeches in tribunals, or other bodies exercising similar this Parliament." functions." 5 Oct 2000 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 3585

Who was on that committee and did not issue. I understand that currently women can present a dissenting report to my knowledge? be charged with the offence of rape. That was The member for Ashgrove and the member for not the point of what I was saying. Currumbin! I hope to see them be consistent The point that I was trying to outline was and vote with the Opposition tonight. I expect that we could have a situation—and I do not them to vote that way tonight. If they do not it think that there is any way of addressing this, will left to the casting vote of the Speaker. Mr because I think that these definitions have to Speaker, it might come to your casting your be included in the Criminal Code—where a vote against your previous rulings so that this woman, who is recognised as a woman on her matter can be rectified. birth certificate, being born a girl, but who has Question—That the motion be agreed a surgically reconstructed penis, is charged to—put; and the House divided— with an offence as a male, and that offence AYES, 40—Beanland, Black, Borbidge, Connor, would be rape if that person had actually Cooper, E. Cunningham, Davidson, Elliott, Feldman, penetrated a female. I think that is the sort of Gamin, Grice, Healy, Hobbs, Horan, Johnson, scenario that we are going to see in our courts Kingston, Knuth, Laming, Lester, Lingard, one day. That was the point that I was trying to Littleproud, Malone, Mitchell, Paff, Pratt, Prenzler, make earlier on. As we try to address some of Rowell, Santoro, Seeney, Sheldon, Simpson, Slack, these issues and try to legislate definitions, it Springborg, Stephan, Turner, Veivers, Watson, was not the fact that I felt that we were making Wellington. Tellers: Baumann, Hegarty a new offence, it was the definitions. NOES, 40—Attwood, Barton, Beattie, Bligh, Boyle, Braddy, Bredhauer, Briskey, Clark, J. Cunningham, Mr FOLEY: I thank the member for his Edmond, Fenlon, Foley, Hamill, Hayward, Kaiser, contribution. I note that the honourable Lavarch, Lucas, Mackenroth, McGrady, Mickel, member raises no objection to the definitions. Miller, Mulherin, Musgrove, Nelson-Carr, Palaszczuk, It should be noted that, with the broader Pearce, Pitt, Reeves, Roberts, Robertson, Rose, definition of "rape", the use of the term Schwarten, Spence, Struthers, Welford, Wells, "person" is used. So of necessity that Wilson. Tellers: Sullivan, Purcell contemplates a broader range of The numbers being equal, Mr Speaker circumstances. cast his vote with the Noes. Clause 15, as read, agreed to. Resolved in the negative. Clauses 16 and 17, as read, agreed to. Clause 18— CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL Mr SPRINGBORG (10.41 p.m.): We have Resumption of Committee probably already had our interesting and Clauses 1 to 14, as read, agreed to. somewhat vociferous debate tonight. I Clause 15— mentioned this matter in my contribution to the second-reading debate. It concerns the Mr SPRINGBORG (10.38 p.m.): This is amendment of section 228 of the Criminal just a point of clarification. During my Code insofar as it relates to obscene contribution to the second-reading debate, I publications and exhibitions. Basically, what it raised the issue of— seeks to do is to update provisions of the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Criminal Code, as I understand it, in accord Mickel): Order! Will those honourable members with modern information technology to ensure standing up please take their seats? There is that those people who are using electronic too much audible conversation in the formats to distribute obscene material, Chamber. including child pornography, are brought within Mr Sullivan interjected. the provisions that existed in respect of the more traditional means of printing, publishing The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! and distributing this material. The member for Chermside! That is unparliamentary. Withdraw it. I would like the Attorney-General, if he so wishes, to outline to the Parliament why he felt Mr SULLIVAN: I withdraw. it necessary to make this amendment. Is it the Mr SPRINGBORG: Thank you very much, fact that there has been some advice of late Mr Temporary Chairman. I just seek a point of which would indicate that there is some clarification on a matter that I raised in my concern about the capacity of the Criminal speech in the second-reading debate. It Code as it currently exists to be able to relates to the issue of the surgical address the issue of modern technology and reconstruction of an individual's genitalia. I said the distribution of obscene material and that obviously there is some interest in this whether the Classification of Publications Act is 3586 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 an insufficient prosecutorial weapon for the should withdraw and apologise. He should not authorities? seek to reconstruct history. He may go to the transcript, which I tabled in this Parliament. Mr FOLEY: The amendment to section 228 expresses the issue in broader and more For those who hold the office of shadow modern terminology, which explicitly includes Attorney-General there comes a responsibility. obscene computer-generated images and so There are people out there who are on. That is designed to make sure that the paedophiles and they should not be told that legislation is kept up to date. I am pleased that they are allowed to do something which is it appears that the honourable member is now against the law by people in positions of high aware that, contrary to what he told ABC authority such as the honourable member for Radio, it is and has been for a good while a Warwick. It is disappointing that he has not criminal offence in Queensland for had the moral fortitude to apologise and paedophiles or anybody else to distribute child withdraw. But let no-one be in any doubt that pornographic material. I have not yet heard that behaviour was unlawful then, it is unlawful the honourable member withdraw and now, and this amendment strengthens and apologise for seeking to mislead the public in modernises the law with respect to the Criminal that regard. I look forward to his taking the Code in the way it deals with it in addition to opportunity to do so tonight. other legislation which is administered by my colleague the Minister for Fair Trading. Mr SPRINGBORG: An apology should be forthcoming from the Attorney-General, Clause 18, as read, agreed to. because when I raised this issue one of my Clause 19— major concerns was that there was an Mr FELDMAN (10.48 p.m.): I raised this inconsistency in the law insofar as the matter with the Attorney-General a little earlier. distribution of certain material using modern I seek some clarification with respect to the and new technologies between the reporting of the mutilation of female genitalia. I Classification of Publications Act, which carries passed this on to the Attorney-General. I just a much lower penalty of two years, and the wanted to find out who has an onus of Criminal Code. Depending on the age of the responsibility in the reporting of that. Should, person who may be the subject of the say, a medical practitioner through the course obscene publications, I understand it can carry of his normal duties become aware that such up to seven years in jail for the distribution of an offence has taken place on a female that material. That was one of the significant patient under his care, what sort of onus is points that I was trying to make during the placed upon him to report the matter and to course of the public debate we had a month or whom? What if, say, a teacher at a school so ago. If the Attorney-General was not able to becomes aware of this through the contact grasp that that was what I was referring to at that that teacher has with a child at that that time, that is not really my fault. school? Also, with respect to retrospectivity, if a It would appear to me that, teacher, say, becomes aware of this offence notwithstanding the points of contention being perpetrated on a child and the offence between us at the time, it is quite obvious that was committed prior to the proclamation of this he has felt it necessary to update the Criminal legislation, exactly what onus is put on people Code to ensure the issues that I was who have the responsibility to care for a child? addressing at the time are now clearly spelt The main point that I wanted to bring to out and encapsulated in the Criminal Code to the attention of the Attorney-General is that, the extent that there is now no dispute over when somebody becomes aware of the the capacity of the criminal law in this State to commission of such an offence, what prosecute people who may be distributing responsibility is placed on that person and who obscene material by means of new and are the professionals who actually treat people modern technology in the equivalent way that who may present as victims of this type of the Criminal Code was able to prohibit the offence? What would they do in this situation? distribution of images generated and Mr FOLEY: There is a duty on medical distributed via more conventional means. practitioners to report it. The relevant duty Mr FOLEY: What the honourable appears in the Health Act of 1937 in section member told ABC Radio news and what I 76K(1). It provides— tabled in this Parliament was his assertion that "A medical practitioner who suspects it was legal to distribute child pornographic on reasonable grounds the maltreatment material provided it was not done for the or neglect of a child in such a manner as purpose of sale. That was wrong. It was to subject or be likely to subject the child grossly irresponsible. The honourable member to unnecessary injury, suffering or danger 5 Oct 2000 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 3587

shall, within 24 hours after first so I am wondering why that particular definition suspecting, notify by the most expeditious was left out of what was included in the means available to the medical offence of rape. There may very well be a practitioner a person authorised under a perfectly good reason. regulation to be so notified." Mr FOLEY: The definition of the offence So there is a mandatory reporting requirement of rape has been broadened. It had been on medical practitioners pursuant to the Health broadened at the specific request of women. Act. That deals with general issues of This is a very important element in changing maltreatment of children, but that would clearly the cultural aspects of the law in this area. In pick up any evidence of such a serious injury South Australia the definition is even broader, to the child as a female genital mutilation. but what we have here is a significant Clause 19, as read, agreed to. extension of the definition of "rape". This extension really is a reflection of the fact that Clauses 20 to 23, as read, agreed to. women have had legitimate concerns that the Clause 24— prior definition of "rape" was defined too Mr SPRINGBORG (10.52 p.m.): As we all narrowly and that it did not include those know, this Bill creates broader definitions of violations of the person that should properly be "rape" and reclassifies certain offences. I called rape and experienced by the victim as would like a little bit of an explanation from the rape. As such, it has caused some Attorney-General. If we turn to page 17 we see considerable debate in legal circles but, that, with regards to the definition of "rape" it nonetheless, the Government accepted the states— legitimate concerns expressed by women. This was one of the issues on which the women's "349.(1) Any person who rapes task force felt very strongly indeed. We another person is guilty of a crime. accepted the wisdom of its view on this matter Maximum penalty—life imprisonment. and amended the provision accordingly. (2) A person rapes another person if— Mr SPRINGBORG: Very briefly, to clarify ... the issue, it was the women's task force on the Criminal Code which was happy to have that (b) the person penetrates the vulva, particular definition remain under sexual vagina or anus of the other assault and for the others to go in the broader person to any extent with a thing definition of rape? It was very comfortable with or a part of the person's body that? that is not a penis without the other person's consent; or Mr FOLEY: That is so. Clause 24, as read, agreed to. (c) the person penetrates the mouth of the other person to Clause 25, as read, agreed to. any extent with the person's Clause 26— penis without the other person's Mr SPRINGBORG (10.56 p.m.): Turning consent." to clause 26, Sexual assaults, proposed new I note that in the Explanatory Notes the section 352(3) states— Minister indicates that non-consensual "Further, the offender is liable to a cunnilingus is going to remain defined in the maximum penalty of life imprisonment sexual offences area and is to be classified if—" under the much lesser crime of sexual assault. This is where the classification of sexual I think it carries a penalty of 14 years. I was assault comes in. I just want the Attorney's wondering if there is a reason for this, keeping clarification. Proposed new section 352.(1) in mind what the Scrutiny of Legislation states— Committee said in its Alert Digest No. 13. It did not raise any particular issues other than "Any person who— stating that it was up to the Parliament to ... decide on the broader definition of "rape". (b) procures another person, without However, it did say in point 27— the person's consent— "The committee also observes that, (i) to commit an act of gross unlike the case of the South Australian indecency; or Criminal Law Consolidation Act 1935 s.48, penile penetration of the mouth will be an (ii) to witness an act of gross offence of rape while non-consensual indecency by the person or cunnilingus will be the offence of sexual any other person; assault. is guilty of a crime. 3588 Criminal Law Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

Maximum penalty—10 years definition of rape. "Rape" includes penetration imprisonment." by the offender. Where the penetration is by Proposed new section 352(3)(c) states— the victim of the offender or by the victim of himself or herself, that conduct remains in the "for an offence defined in subsection category of sexual assault. It is still called (1)(b)(i), the act of gross indecency sexual assault. But in that respect it has the includes the person who is procured by same penalty as rape, that is, pursuant to the offender penetrating the vagina, vulva section 352(3), the maximum penalty of life or anus of the person who is procured or imprisonment. another person to any extent with a thing or a part of the body of the person who is Mr SPRINGBORG: I note that subsection procured that is not a penis." (3) states that, further, the offender is liable to a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. I would just like to draw a comparison with the There seems to be a differentiation when definition of "rape". In clause 24, proposed dealing with similar circumstances where one is new section 349.(1) states— called sexual assault and the other is called "Any person who rapes another rape. That is what my concern is, person is guilty of a crime. notwithstanding that the penalty could be the Maximum penalty—life imprisonment. same. (2) A person rapes another person if— Clause 26, as read, agreed to. ... Clauses 27 to 49, as read, agreed to. (b) that person penetrates the Clause 50— vulva, vagina or anus of the Mr FOLEY (11.02 p.m.): I move the other person to any extent with a following amendment— thing or a part of the person's "At page 34, line 4— body that is not a penis without the other person's consent." omit, insert— It has been brought to my attention that it '(4) To avoid any doubt, it is declared that would appear that the type of activity in clause subsections (2) and (3) only provide 26, proposed new section 352(3)(c), does exceptions to the hearsay rule for seem to be of a similar magnitude, but the particular evidence and do not otherwise type of activity which is causing the concern affect the admissibility of the evidence. there seems to be classified as a lesser '(5) In this section—'." offence. I take it that we are dealing here with This amendment responds to concerns this person who has been procured by the expressed by the Scrutiny of Legislation offender who is forced to do things upon Committee. Clause 50 introduces an exception themselves. I assume that because of the way to the hearsay rule in certain criminal it reads— proceedings where the maker of a statement " ... procured by the offender penetrating or representation is now unavailable. The the vagina, vulva or anus of the person committee has expressed concern that there is who is procured or another person ... " no requirement that direct oral evidence of the That seems to me to mean procuring a person representation would have been admissible and forcing that person to do something unto had the maker of the representation been themselves or someone else; and once that available to give evidence. This provision has been done, that person who has procured merely removes the hearsay restriction on them has committed a sexual assault and certain evidence; it does not affect any other would suffer the penalty that would appear to basis for admissibility. It does not make go with that. My concern is that, if it is defined evidence admissible; it merely removes one in one area as rape, should not the person ground of inadmissibility. who has been responsible for forcing it to be If the evidence is admissible on another committed, if I am reading it correctly, also be basis, such as part of the res gestae, then this guilty of the same offence? There is just some provision will not apply. If the evidence is confusion as to how I am reading it, and some inadmissible on any basis other than that it is people have raised it with me. It may be hearsay, for example, because it is not perfectly simple to understand. relevant, then again this provision will not Mr FOLEY: So far as sexual assault is apply. This amendment removes any doubt concerned, the penalties have not altered. It that this is the case. has been redrafted to take into account the Mr SPRINGBORG: As I indicated in my conduct which has been removed in the contribution to the second-reading debate, I 5 Oct 2000 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 3589 support the amendment moved by the Mr SPRINGBORG: I thank the Attorney- Attorney-General and commend him for doing General for his description of the issues and so. In my contribution to the second-reading the motivations behind it. I appreciate the debate I raised the desire to know any specific issues that the task force has raised. If that reasons as to why the Attorney-General felt was the prime and sole motivation, that this should be included in the Bill. Was it a incorporating this into the legislation will general issue that had been forthcoming to address a number of other matters which have the Minister's office and department over the been raised in the past but which cannot be years? As I said earlier, there is very good retrospectively fixed by the application of the reason to establish a procedure where hearsay amendment being moved in the Parliament evidence can be admissible under certain tonight. However, it will certainly address issues circumstances. which have arisen in the past if similar issues The Explanatory Notes and the Minister's do arise at some future time. I thank the comments seem to indicate that there would Attorney-General for his assistance. be situations in which justice may not Amendment agreed to. necessarily be done if there is no capacity to Clause 50, as amended, agreed to. have hearsay evidence presented in a court if the person who was the victim of the crime Clauses 51 to 58, as read, agreed to. which is the subject of the trial in the court is Mr FOLEY: In moving the final motion, I not able to be there because they are dead, again pay tribute to the women's task force, in suffering an intellectual disability as a particular to the chairperson of the women's consequence of the crime, or for some other task force, Ms Virginia Sturgess, who is reason. I want to know if there have been present in the Chamber in the advisers' box. specific cases, specific reasons or specific She and her colleagues have done the people motivations for this. If the Attorney-General of Queensland an incredibly fine service. It has does not want to address specific cases in the been only two years since they were Parliament, I understand that. However, I appointed. In that time they have consulted would very much like to chat with him broadly. They have produced a report. afterwards to see if an issue which was Hopefully, it will become law very shortly. brought to my attention a while ago has been Bill reported, with an amendment. one of the motivations behind the consideration of this measure. Bill, on motion of Mr Foley, by leave, read a third time. Mr FOLEY: Perhaps the simplest way of answering the honourable member's question is to refer him to the report of the Task Force NATURE CONSERVATION AND OTHER on Women and the Criminal Code of February LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL this year which I tabled in this Parliament and, Second Reading in particular, the discussion at page 132 Resumed from 22 June (see p. 1891). dealing with hearing the voice of a homicide victim. I quote briefly from it. It states— Hon. V. P. LESTER (Keppel—NPA) (11.09 p.m.): Forest recreation relies upon a "One of the most significant finite, shrinking and non-renewable resource problems identified by women's groups that is already at a premium within south-east and victim advocates in homicide cases Queensland. It is no wonder that any changes is—how does the jury hear the story of the to the way forests are managed and used dead woman? At present the hearsay rule cause serious concerns within the recreation makes it difficult for the court to admit community. But what if Governments were evidence of statements or complaints able to both protect the conservation values of which the woman may have made about forests and provide the diversity of recreation the accused. The hearsay rule is a experience the community desires? complex legal rule that means, in general, a witness may not give evidence of a The South-East Queensland Regional statement made outside of court for the Forest Agreement has caused concern within purpose of showing that the statement the outdoor recreation community because of was true." the potential changes to the public forest estate. But what is an RFA and how have Take the situation where a woman has been outdoor recreation groups contributed to the the victim of homicide. A matter of great decision that may well impact upon the way we concern to the women's task force related to use south-east Queensland forests for how that evidence gets before the courts. recreation? 3590 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

This Bill represents another step Mr LESTER: I did listen. I was here and I backwards for the people who rely on, use and listened with great interest. I have listened to enjoy south-east Queensland's Crown native the various speeches made in this Parliament forests. The Bill represents the Beattie by Government members regarding this deal Government's complete accession to the to close down the forests. While there has ideological whims of a few extremist minority been plenty of talk by Government members, groups. The Bill is essentially about the Beattie there has not been a lot of listening. Labor Government's drummed up excuse for a Mr Mickel interjected. regional forest agreement. It represents the culmination of a deal by a Labor Government Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Reeves): that is prepared to do whatever it takes to cling Order! The member for Logan will not interject to office—a deal that traded off the futures of from other than his allocated seat. thousands of timberworkers in south-east Mr LESTER: That is exactly the point I am Queensland, the futures of the rural and making about not listening. Government regional communities that depend on forest members do not know what they are talking industries, the industries that depend upon the about, and they interject when they are not in Crown native forests and the interests of those their correct seats. tens of thousands of people who use the Mr Sullivan: I was listening to you. forests for a whole host of recreational activities. It was a deal that traded off all that Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! and more. For what? For a handful of green Mr LESTER: Thank you for your preferences in a few metropolitan marginal protection, Mr Deputy Speaker. Despite all the electorates. People's jobs, people's livelihoods rhetoric, the people out there whose lives are and people's lifestyles were traded for votes going to be very much affected by the that those opposite desperately need to help Government's deal and this Bill will do nothing keep their sorry political hides on the Treasury to support what the Government is doing. The benches. graziers, the beekeepers, the native foliage The Beattie Government's deal is not a people and the recreational users do not regional forest agreement by definition or by believe the Government's hollow claims. They intent. Quite apart from the fact that it does do not believe them because the Government not meet the criteria set out in the National shut them out of the deal. It did not even show Forest Policy Statement, the policy that the them the decency of consulting with them and former Labor State Government and the will not give them a straight answer. former Labor Federal Government both A true regional forest agreement is based endorsed never involved all the forest on the principles established under the stakeholders. It did not involve the grazing National Forest Policy Statement agreed to by industry. It did not involve the beekeeping the State and the Commonwealth in 1992. industry. It did not involve the shire councils. It That policy sought to provide balance to what did not involve the timber towns. It did not has been an historically divisive and often involve the tourism industry. It did not involve emotive issue—the management of native the workers. The Government did not take any forests. notice of them and it did not keep its word on The policy established 11 goals to a lot of things it promised them, and the achieve that balance: the protection of Minister knows that. conservation values; the sustainable economic The policy did not involve the motorbike use of native forest and plantations; the riders. They came to see me specifically and harmonisation of the land use decision-making said that they had not been consulted at all, process between the State and the let alone listened to. It did not include the four- Commonwealth; the sustainable management wheel drivers, the horse riders or the hikers. of the private forest estate; the increase in the After all, these forests are for people—for total area of land dedicated to timber recreation. All it involved was just a few select plantations; the provision of reliable, high- interest groups that do not speak for the quality water supplies to forested lands; the community but speak only for the narrow exploitation of other economically viable forest interests of a few. Not only were those other activities including tourism, recreation, grazing stakeholders not privy to this deal; they were and mineral exploration; the expansion of job not even consulted. opportunities and the improvement of the skills of those working in the forest industries; the I listened to the Minister's second-reading fostering of community knowledge of speech when he introduced this Bill. ecologically sustainable management; the Mr Welford: You didn't listen. increased effort of research and development 5 Oct 2000 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 3591 for native forests; and the fulfilment of our As part of the Beattie Government's RFA international obligations. process, some aspects of State forests and Regional forest agreements were timber reserve land in south-east Queensland designed to achieve those goals, having were assessed. The recreation assessment regard to the assessment of: the was inconclusive and was not able to be environmental values of forests, including old sustained. The only real outcomes are a highly growth, wilderness, endangered species, questionable timber yield over the next 25 national estate values and world heritage years, the withdrawal of the Federal values; indigenous heritage values; economic Government's and community support and the values of forested areas and forest industries; Labor Government's commitment to the social values; and the principles of ecologically conservation movement for its support in the sustainable management. last election. There are claims of comprehensive RFAs were intended as a joint innovation consultation with stakeholders, yet the Minister between the State and Federal Governments acknowledged the lack of recognition of and to achieve these objectives. They are intended consultation with recreation interests. to run for 20 years or so to provide long-term Recreation was not represented on any of the security for everyone with a stake in the RFA committees and was refused participation forests. They were intended to provide for the when lobbying. In conciliation, the Minister establishment of a comprehensive, adequate authorised the establishment of the forest and representative reserve system, the recreation reference group and provided ecologically sustainable management and use $35,000 in funding. The end result was an of Crown native forests and the continued agreement between conservation and timber. development of viable and successful forest The SEQRFA was not welcomed by all industries. stakeholders as claimed by the Minister. Why These were the objectives or criteria that was it that the timber industry and the Federal coalition Government sought to conservationists were the only stakeholders to enshrine in the legislation so as to ensure sign the agreement? So much for ongoing, long-term security for all forest users consultation! and all forest values. They were criteria that we The Federal Government consistently all surely support. They were criteria that even refuses to accept the outcomes contained in this Beattie Labor Government claims to the Beattie deal for south-east Queensland support and claims to have provided for in the forests and will not contribute one cent towards trumped-up political deal that it now seeks to its implementation—and rightly so. This deal sell as an RFA. Yet, in another of Labor's great does not meet the RFA criteria and is not displays of hypocrisy, that legislation called the representative or consultative. Regional Forest Agreements Bill 1998 was blocked in the Senate by the Labor The introduction of this Bill establishes Government. goodwill with conservation. For the remaining stakeholders, and especially recreation The Opposition does not support the interests, it creates uncertainty over access Beattie Government's proposal for an RFA and and the principles of multi-use by our citizens. we cannot support this Bill. This Bill sets about The Bill as introduced provides for the introducing the Beattie Government's deal, legislative framework to set aside around which does not achieve the criteria for a true 425,000 hectares of State forest and timber RFA and which does not fulfil the wishes of the reserve land as protected areas under the wider community. Nature Conservation Act 1992. The Nature Conservation and Other For conservation, it doubles the current Legislation Amendment Bill 2000 does not protected area estate, at considerable satisfy the requirements of active recreation in expense to recreation. The directions report south-east Queensland. This includes the clearly enunciates under scenario F that areas various horse-riding disciplines, four-wheel of high recreational site significance—a driving, trail and mountain bike riding and combination of popularity, visitation, quality fossicking that currently enjoy the use of State and condition—in south-east Queensland's forest lands. Achieving security for the forest State forests is estimated at a loss of 50% of industry and protecting our outstanding natural horse-riding sites, 60% of four-wheel driving heritage is an important process and should and trail bike riding and around 30% of have been achieved under a genuine South- mountain bike riding sites. Recently, fossickers East Queensland Regional Forest have become aware of the proposed Agreement—SEQRFA—process but it was not. legislation and estimate a 60% loss of sites. 3592 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

These are some significant losses for the timber industry out into an ever-decreasing outdoor recreation in south-east Queensland— area of resource. It seeks to lock up the forest especially for an activity that is estimated to and throw away the key. The Crown native account for 41,597,029 participants in a 12- forests are public assets and all month period and which is growing. That Queenslanders and Australians should be substantially exceeds the combined entitled to use them. For the Beattie attendance at all the annual sporting events of Government to lock them up on the whim of a the Broncos, the Bullets, the Reds and the few minority groups is wrong. It is a decision Bulls. that has not been based on science. It is a Monetarily, the estimated yearly decision that has not been based on expenditure is in excess of $2 billion. This is community consultation. It is a decision that significant and is substantiated in the FRRG's will not benefit this State. June 1999 response to the south-east We will not legitimise what is little more Queensland regional forest agreement than another of Labor's grubby political deals. directions report. In the Minister's second- The Opposition cannot support this Bill. We will reading speech he declares that virtually all be opposing it all the way. existing recreational activities presently taking Dr WATSON (Moggill—LP) (Leader of the place on the land can be accommodated on Liberal Party) (11.29 p.m.): I rise to speak on one or more classes of protected areas, with the Nature Conservation and Other Legislation the final distribution of certain uses requiring Amendment Bill, which aims to deny decent careful assessment. Queenslanders access to activities which Surely the Minister also understands that should be encouraged, not discouraged. As regulations in Queensland are not in line with we know, horse riding is not allowed in national other States and do not permit domestic parks in Queensland. The only exception is animals in protected areas. In practical terms, where the National Trail, which runs all the way this means that a resident will not be able to from Cooktown in north Queensland to walk his dog in Daisy Hill State Forest without a Healesville outside of Melbourne, passes permit. Horse riding is not permitted in through a national park. protected areas, save those with recognised Mr Hegarty: Has the Minister ridden that trails such as the Bicentennial National Trail. trail, I wonder? Fossickers are excluded entirely. Dr WATSON: The Minister could not ride The FRRG was briefed that careful a bike, let alone a horse. assessments would be undertaken under the multi-use management planning system— What does this Bill have to do with horse MUMPS. Is it not true that recently this riding in national parks? Everything, because methodology was dropped for the purpose of clearly the long-term objective of the Nature the SEQRFA? Why is that? Is the Government Conservation and Other Legislation in a hurry to achieve results without due Amendment Bill is to turn more and more of process? Does conservation object to the use Queensland into national parks. of MUMPS as an objective process to I am not opposed to national parks. In accommodate other users of the public fact, I am in favour of national parks. They are estate? a magnificent resource and a wonderful way of The amendments to the Bill are quite protecting natural flora and fauna. They are simple and, in fact, assist the Minister in also a way of preserving part of our State for keeping his promises to recreation interests at the enjoyment of future generations, but last year's 4 July forum. What recreational putting 425,000 hectares of State forest and users want is: proper definition and inclusion of timber reserve land to protect the status is recreation in protected areas; the clarification moving too fast too soon. and inclusion of a definition of recreation; This Bill is very clear in some of its aims improvement of the definition of "ecologically and very vague in others. It states quite clearly sustainable use" to better justify alternative that within five years the area of land covered uses such as recreation; defined management by the Bill will have to be rezoned or change principles of a forest reserve; modification of tenure into one of five designations. Various the purpose of a forest reserve from an interim parts of that 425,000 hectares will become measure to a dedicated protected area; and either national park scientific, national park the elimination of the forest reserve sunset recovery, conservation park or resource clause. reserve, but the ultimate destination of every This Bill seeks to take away continued last hectare of that land is national park. access for recreational uses. It seeks to push Mr Welford: Not true. 5 Oct 2000 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 3593

Dr WATSON: We will get to that in a he gave them at Rocklea. That point was moment. As the Minister's second-reading made time and time again by representatives speech says— from every type of recreational user in "A capacity is available to prevent the Queensland. issue of any authority that could Mr Welford: Your idea of recreation is real compromise its ultimate dedication as a estate development. We know what you're up national park." to. That is the key part of the Minister's second- Dr WATSON: The problem the Minister reading speech and that indicates precisely has is that he does not understand how the what the significant objective is. vast majority of people use national forests in In the not too distant future—in some Queensland for legitimate reasons such as cases as soon as five years—ordinary, decent horse riding or motorbike riding or whatever. Queenslanders are going to be locked out of The Minister was prepared to make a places where they have traditionally been able commitment at Rocklea, but he failed to to enjoy activities such as horse riding. I deliver on that despite the number of received a letter from the secretary of the discussions departmental officers had with the Australian Trail Horse Riders Association of various groups, and then he did not have Queensland, Alison Arthur. The Minister has enough guts to turn up at Brookfield on 16 received some letters from a number of other July and face up to the fact that he was people, some of which he has not replied to, hoodwinking. but the important thing that Alison says in this Mr Wells: He has tonnes of guts. letter to me is this— Dr WATSON: He does not have any guts. "We do not welcome this Act, we are He did not have the nerve to turn up to the far from happy and extremely concerned Brookfield showgrounds on 16 July and that the Forest reserve has a sunset explain his actions. clause of 5 years and, within that time, it Mr Hegarty: Could he have got on a MUST be transferred to one of three horse at Brookfield? National Parks, Conservation Park or if still under lease, Resource reserve. Dr WATSON: He would not know which end of the horse to get on to. We do not believe this is in the best interest of the majority of Recreational The fact is that a sizeable part of the Users, nor the Forestry, as active 425,000 hectares covered by the Bill recreation will be extremely restricted, comprises two of the most popular horse riding consequently causing overuse of areas areas in the south-east corner—Brisbane which will cause degradation." Forest Park and, as the member interjected earlier, Daisy Hill State Forest. They are the The Minister, of course, did actually attend one most popular areas because they are the only rally that the recreation users had at Rocklea— sizeable horse riding areas for people living in Mr Welford: Greatly loved. Brisbane. State forests are the only public Dr WATSON: No, actually he is not greatly lands open for horse riders. There is no loved. He failed to turn up to the first one, evidence that any damage is caused by this which was held at Brookfield, and he also sport. In fact, horse riders provide valuable failed to turn up to the one on 16 July at the assistance in the management of large areas Brookfield showgrounds. I would have such as forests. Does the Minister agree with welcomed the Minister— that? Mr Welford: Did you go to that one? Mr Welford: I do. Dr WATSON: You bet I did. Dr WATSON: Then the Minister should encourage it. For example, many riders go to Mr Welford: It was about time you turned remote parts of the Brisbane Forest Park up to something. where bush walkers or park rangers rarely get Dr WATSON: I would have welcomed the to. They are often able to report back on Minister to my electorate. If he had come, he various matters that need attention such as might have actually learnt something. feral animals, damage to perimeter fences and Mr Welford: Not from you I wouldn't. illegal activities. Dr WATSON: What the Minister would Mr Hegarty interjected. have learnt is that there is a whole range of Mr DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr Reeves): recreational users who understand that the Order! The member for Moggill is on his feet. If Minister simply has not lived up to the promise the member for Redlands wants to make a 3594 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 contribution to this debate, there is ample bushwalkers will ultimately have access to the opportunity for him to do so. 425,000 hectares of south-east Queensland Dr WATSON: Horse riders are a help, not covered by this Bill. a hindrance, in the management of parks. In Mr FELDMAN (Caboolture—CCAQ) Brisbane Forest Park horse riders cause no (11.39 p.m.): We all watched in amazement environmental damage because they are the feats of our Olympic athletes over the past using tracks and trails maintained for fire fortnight or so. None was more aspiring to access. The argument that horse manure young horse riders of today—out there in their contributes to weed seed dispersion simply little pony clubs, out there learning to ride, out does not hold up when we consider that the there learning what to do and trying to enjoy main weed problem in Brisbane Forest Park is their sport—than the gold medal winning ride lantana. Anyone who knows anything about of Andrew Hoy on his horse, Darien Powers, horses knows that they do not eat lantana. and the other boys on their respective mounts There have been a large number of in the three-day endurance event. These little assurances made by the Labor Government clubs would be expecting a little bit of a that recreational users will not be adversely windfall out of the Olympic Games over the affected by the RFA and this subsequent Bill. coming months and years as their sport is In a press release dated 21 May last year the highlighted and given the credence that it Minister for Environment, Heritage and Minister deserves. It teaches people to go out and for Natural Resources acknowledged that there enjoy their environment, enjoy riding horses had been an explosion in demand by people and enjoy the responsibility that comes with living in the south-east for outdoor recreation the ownership of horses. opportunities in our national parks, council These little clubs would be expecting that reserves, State forests and other natural windfall for their recreational sport out of the settings. He went on to say that the efforts of the horses and riders in the XXVII Queensland Government is looking to expand Olympiad. However, what do they have to look the diversity of sustainable recreation and forward to from this Beattie Labor tourism opportunities, not reduce them. Government? They can look forward to I ask: how is locking up 425,000 hectares reduced areas of forest in which to ride, for future national parks supposed to expand perhaps even being locked totally out of areas recreation activities? It will not expand of forest. That is some platform of support for activities; it will reduce activities, because there this electorally sensitive Government. It is really only one activity allowed in national appears that it is more interested in rorting the parks and that is bushwalking. I enjoy electoral system than helping those people bushwalking but what about the people who whom it should be supporting in their sport. enjoy horse riding or mountain bike riding or On Tuesday morning, a desperate plea trail bike riding or even simply taking their dog was made to this Parliament by over 5,150- for a walk in the bush? None of those people odd recreational users of State forests for this will get a look-in in the future because this Bill thoughtless Minister for Environment to honour caters only to the interests of the extreme his commitment of no net loss of State forest greens. This Bill is very vague and hazy on a to recreational users by way of petition. The number of points. petition was tabled in this place on Tuesday In his second-reading speech delivered in morning. this House on 22 June, the Minister said that On Saturday I was out at O'Shea Road at this Bill was a significant step for nature a heritage trail at Wamuran and picked that up conservation and nature-based recreation in from the Environmental Access for Recreation Queensland. "Nature-based recreation" is an Federation—Anne Barlow and Lou Wolf, to be interesting term. I cannot know for sure one exact. That petition is just a typical reflection of way or the other because nowhere in the Bill is the anger that is out there in the community at the term "nature-based recreation" defined. In the moment about the closing down of access this Bill I think it means nothing more than to State forests for the pursuit of recreation. bushwalking. I call on the Minister, instead of There was a rather large and very volatile just sitting there and interjecting, to come group out there whom no doubt the Minister clean and define exactly what he means by probably did not want to meet—the same as "nature-based recreation". That is the point he did not want to meet the people at that the member for Keppel made a few Brookfield. This group are striving for a better moments ago. I call on the Minister to make deal from this Government for horse riders, for some real assurances, assurances enshrined four-while drive enthusiasts and for trail and in this legislation, that more than just mountain bike riders who form the association. 5 Oct 2000 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 3595

Recreational users of the State forest are The government keeps the forests another group who are now seriously accessible by maintaining tracks for contemplating marching on Parliament, or access by fire trucks, our sport largely only riding on Parliament, to protest at the closing requires access to these same tracks in down of their State forests for recreational order to ride horses. As you may be pursuits. aware, The Gap Pony Club is holding a Everyone has the right to enjoy the fun rally ride this weekend through pursuit of their recreational activity. With this Brisbane Forest Park, they expect 200+ Minister wanting to close down parts of the riders to attend. This is their way of fund Brisbane Forest Park to recreational users, I raising so their kids can continue horse ask him if he can identify some parts of that riding as a sport and in safety (off the forest that are going to be left suitable for roads) and by keeping them busy and out horse riders or other people to pursue their of trouble. What would happen to The sport or recreation. Gap Pony Club if for example their forest was closed up?" The Minister has refused to answer correspondence from this group requesting We know what would happen. That little club some advice, and he wonders why they are so and everyone in it would just perish, or the upset. If the Minister is not careful, it may be a children would have to travel miles, putting little bit more than milk that might be spilt on their parents to more and more expense and the steps of Parliament in the upcoming probably driving the children out of their sport. months. But then again, as one very upset The Minister would probably be responsible for rider said on Saturday, the smell of horse robbing a future gold medal winning athlete of manure is times preferable to the stench of the a place in history because of what he is doing policies of this corrupt Beattie Labor with the State forest. This Minister is denying Government. some child the right to grow up to enjoy the sport that they deserve to be able to enjoy. Mr Welford: Be charitable. Mr FELDMAN: I have tried to be The Minister thinks that this matter is a charitable to the Minister. joke. The Minister thinks that a lot of things are jokes. He thought that the kangaroos out at That brings me to a few sensitive little Toorbul were a bit of a joke, too. However, the matters that I would like to mention. I have a radio certainly showed that the Minister was letter from a Mr Mathers, which the Minister is wrong. I tell the Minister that some of those probably aware of, that came to him via the people wished that they had taken one of Honourable Wendy Edmond. It states— those buck roos and tossed it into his place, "My chosen sport is endurance too. riding, we ride distances of up to 160km in Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER (Ms Nelson- one day and some events much further Carr): Order! Could the member please stick to over several days. I not only rely on the the topic. use of Brisbane Forest Park for my training but I rely on the access to state Mr FELDMAN: I am. The Minister is the forests all over Queensland for my sport. topic. The letter goes on to state— The sport is not sponsored by big "The government has so far corporations but by individuals own efforts indicated that there would be no net loss and clubs that hold events and use the of forest access to recreational users. forests. What is to say the forest as we know it Unlike the horseracing industry we today is closed up, but to replace it the don't have the funding and support that government provides us with one of five industry enjoys, however, Australia is classified forests in north Queensland, recognised for endurance horses with obviously that scenario would be totally buyers from all over the world and in impractical but in line with what the particular the United Arab Emirates. The government is offering. Further, the Australian Labor Party (Queensland) promise of a forest reserve with a five year promotes a policy of jobs, many people sunset clause is guarantee of continued rely on this sport for their income, whether access. they are farriers, vets or horse breeders. I I have one request of Mr Welford. consider the government knows very little Will you state in Parliament there will be about this industry and the effect an increase of public land available to changing of the tenure to 'conservation active sport and recreational users estate' will have on the industry. throughout Queensland as a result of the 3596 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000

South East Queensland Forest "Please identify a recreational access Agreement." area for horse riding adjacent to Brisbane I think we will be waiting a long time before we Forest Park?" get that response. I have another letter from Can the Minister identify that for the writer of that same writer. It states— this letter, Mr Mathers? He says— "I am in receipt of the response from "In the interests of other forest users, Mr. Welford in relation to my letter sent to I will forward Mr Welford's response to 780 you on 14th August 2000 concerning the members of QERA, 2000+plus effect of the South East Queensland Queensland members of the Equestrian Forest Agreement on horse riding in the Federation of Australia, the 7659 Brisbane Forest Park. members of the Pony Club Association of Queensland and the 850 Queensland Let me say, I am extremely members of the Australian Trail Horse disappointed with his response. Riders Association." In the first instance, Mr Welford He goes on to say— requests I contact Mrs. Fiona Botham of "I will ask them to pass on the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service information to the many veterinarians, with any further concerns. The farriers, horse breeders and stock feed representations by the QPWS at the merchants in their districts to ensure that FRRG clearly indicate that there is a firm the horse riding-owner community at large agenda set down by the government, fully understands what this government is clear in at least two respects. Firstly, the proposing, and how, through its lame issue of the five year sunset clause on the approach to consultation through the Forest Reserve with little or no QPWS, will ultimately affect their consideration as to the impact on recreational right in their respective equestrian activities. Ask the Minister districts." about the background and why the State forests are being placed under the Mr Welford: Who wrote this? auspices of the Nature Conservation Mr FELDMAN: Mr Mathers. I will table Act ... we should rely on negotiation given both letters and the Minister's response. He the Directions Report indicated a possible goes on to say— 50% access loss under Scenario F. "I understand a set of amendments Secondly, the FRRG and the sub will be tabled when this bill is tabled for regional group consultations are really a debate in the next sitting of Parliament ..." facade. Ask the Minister to explain the However, he did not realise that it would be objective process currently being used to brought on at 11 o'clock at night and that it negotiate access. We were led to believe would be railroaded through, just as most that MUMPS (Multi Use Management sensitive Bills get railroaded through this place. Planning System) would be used to It would not surprise me if it is set to be evaluate the protected areas. Can he gagged as well. describe the objective process being used Mr Rowell interjected. and is he willing to be scrutinised to the government's commitment to 'high Mr Welford: Are you whingeing again? standards of accountability, consultation Mr Rowell: No, I am just saying some and ethics' (stated in its Seven Priorities facts to you, and they are not particularly document). good. Therefore, I am responding directly to Mr FELDMAN: Government members do you. not like facts and truth in this place. The last paragraph states— Whilst Mr. Welford did not answer the specific question in my initial letter he has "I understand a set of amendments confirmed that Brisbane Forest Park will will be tabled when this bill is tabled for be affected by your government's debate in the next sittings of Parliament proposed changes. He indicates 'it may on behalf of the recreational forest users be necessary to identify adjacent, less throughout Queensland. I implore you to sensitive areas to provide recreational consider them on their merits and in the access for horse riders'." light of your own government's commitment to 'Valuing the He actually says— Environment' "— 5 Oct 2000 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 3597 that will be the day— The point is that the Minister was caught "(and ensuring 'responsible and out and he was shamed into responding by sustainable access to Queensland's allowing these children back into an area that natural resources', which we support and they have enjoyed for the past 15 years. That adhere to) and the recreational interest of spear bore was tested twice by the council and the constituents in your district." passed. They used the water from that spear bore only for showering. They learn canoeing I will table those two letters and the Minister's on Second Lagoon. They have been doing response. I have seen first-hand exactly what that for over 16 years. They have been the Minister's response to people who care for rejuvenating those dunes and putting back the environment is. I saw his response initially into that environment. to the Bribie Island State School when it was Mr Knuth interjected. being locked out— Mr FELDMAN: That is true. I thank the Mr Welford: They were embarrassed by member for Burdekin. The Minister has made you. a joke out of what that community does with its Mr FELDMAN: They were not own land, time and money. Were he not embarrassed. The Minister should look at the shamed into doing something, those children correspondence. It was the Minister they were would not have enjoyed it this year as well. hunting for. It was the Minister who made it All of the pony club members, four-wheel almost untenable for them to look after the drivers, trail bike riders and mountain bike dunes at Second Lagoon on Bribie Island. riders will get locked out of these forests They had been looking after those dunes for through the inaction of this Minister and his 15 years. For 15 years they had been doing department. The Minister has received a something for the environment on Bribie petition with 5,155-odd signatures on it. The Island, yet the Minister was going to lock them signatories want to know exactly what he is out. He was going to charge them $3.50 and going to do to assist them. If he does not do require portable toilets, making it very anything, that little petition will grow, as will the expensive for the families to try to do anger of these people and as will the something that they had enjoyed for 15 years. heartache for the Minister's Government. All The school had gone out of its way to acquire they want is to be able to enjoy the tents, boating equipment and everything else recreational activities that they have enjoyed necessary to go out to that place and camp for the past— there, yet the Minister was going to lock them out. The Minister was caught out badly. He Mr Knuth interjected. was shamed. They are now going to be able Mr FELDMAN: They have enjoyed horse to enjoy it for one further year. Why does he riding ever since we have come to this country. not make a commitment for another 10 years That is how long they have been enjoying rather than just one more year? How about 20 horse riding all around Australia and years? Can they enjoy it for another 20 years? Queensland. They are now being denied the ability to ride over land they have ridden over Mr Welford: I'll tell you what, I'll give them all of their lives. It is a shame that this Bill is another 10 years if you give an indemnity about locking people out of enjoying against the health of the kids who go in that something that rightfully belongs to every polluted pond. There you go. I personally give Australian and every Queenslander. But that you that. Get your act together. You're a seems to be the path of the Beattie Labor disgrace. Government. It is locking people out of what Mr FELDMAN: What absolute rubbish this they enjoy. Minister talks. That spear bore was tested. Mr Knuth: Stopping fun. Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The Mr FELDMAN: It is stopping fun. This member for Caboolture! This is not relevant. I Government will be renowned for stopping fun ask the member to stick to the point. I ask the and for preventing people from enjoying their Minister to refrain from interjecting. weekend activities. This is a Government that Mr FELDMAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I does not like other people having fun. This am sticking to the point. We are talking about Government has fun at other people's the recreational use of a forest area that is expense. now a national park on Bribie Island and I am It is about time the Government realised talking about what this Minister has done to it. how many people it is affecting through the It is nice to see the Minister in the House. Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Happy hour has obviously finished. Amendment Bill. It has provided a sunset 3598 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 5 Oct 2000 clause of only five years. The people most able to outline to the Parliament exactly what affected—the recreational users—were not the position is for recreational users? Why has even invited to be a signatory to the South- he not been able to give them some certainty, East Queensland Regional Forest Agreement. some assurance, to gel with the platitudes that Everybody else got a bit of a look in, but not he has made at the meetings that he has had recreational users—no way. They represent with them in the past? No doubt he has been the largest proportion of all users, yet they unable to convince many of those recreational were not included in that agreement. They users that their interests are going to be were not even consulted by this department. protected through what is contained in this Bill Mr Schwarten: You've only got one that we are debating tonight. minute to go. In common with other members who have Mr FELDMAN: I have and I am going to spoken before me, I have had representations use every second of it. The Minister has not from recreational users, particularly horse riders and will not— and trail bike riders, who are uncertain as to Mr Welford interjected. their future in respect of the use of land. I do not have to go through the issue in depth to Mr FELDMAN: It is a joke to the Minister, point out to the Minister the reasons for their but it is not a joke to all of the people in those uncertainty. However, if he looks at page 9 of clubs. his second-reading speech he will see that he Mr Welford: You're the joke. refers to the fact that many of the issues Mr FELDMAN: The Minister is the joke. raised in the consultation phase of the Bill, He will be the joke at the end of the day, particularly by recreational groups, are matters because people will realise that he is having a for negotiation as part of the 10-year allocation joke at Queensland's expense. The people are process—uncertainty. It is heightened by a watching the Minister. They know exactly what later statement. He says— the Minister for the Environment is really like. "While virtually all existing He is locking them out and destroying their recreational activities presently taking recreational activities. They know well and truly place on the land can be accommodated what the Minister is like. on one or more classes of protected Time expired. areas, the final distribution of certain uses Mr SLACK (Burnett—NPA) (11.59 p.m.): I will need to be carefully assessed." rise to support the contributions made by the However, there is no guarantee there in Opposition spokesperson on Natural respect of what I was talking about earlier, that Resources, the member for Moggill, and the is, easily accessible localities for the people member for Caboolture. There is no doubt that who are currently using the parks. the State needs to put an adequate area of land into the reserve category, and the I assume that in the assessment process Minister and all other members of this House the Minister is going to look at the ecological would agree. There is also no doubt that there effects of its current use. That is fine to a point. is a requirement to make an adequate area of However, if the Minister is trying to assure land available in the criteria for judging a those people that they are going to have national park. The future protection of the access to areas that they currently have ecosystems in Queensland requires a access to, but at the time he does this reasonable area of land to be enclosed in that assessment he might remove that access. estate. I understand that the estate currently Obviously they would be concerned. stands at between 4% and 5%. Honourable members can understand that concern when the Minister has given them no Mr Welford: About 4%. assurances to date in terms of what they will Mr SLACK: The objective has always be able to access in the localities that are been to acquire a 5% representation of the convenient for them to access. State within that category. However, it also has to be recognised that adequate land needs to Talking about localities and convenience, be provided for recreational use, and it has to horse riding is a very costly exercise. Many of be provided in categories and localities that the people involved in horse riding are genuine are readily accessible to those people who people who are not wealthy but who love their wish to use it. horses. They love horse riding and they make sacrifices in other areas to accommodate that Mr Welford: I couldn't agree more. love. Any extra cost to them makes it Mr SLACK: I am pleased to hear it. If that prohibitive. It is almost prohibitive to many of is the case, why has the Minister not been them now, but the parents and friends of 5 Oct 2000 Nature Conservation and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 3599 young people in particular all help out so that generations and that it is ecologically they are able to continue with their hobby. sustained on their properties. That is one way I am fearful about what will happen with that the Minister can increase the national park respect to trail bike riding in particular. If the estate. Minister removes the access of trail bike riders To be fair, I think the Minister should do to recreational areas that they currently enjoy, that. I would imagine that he has given that those people will tend to break the law. They consideration, but whether he is prepared to are highly mobile, particularly the young put up the dollars is another matter. That is people. They will take to land that is not really what this really hangs on. The Minister is not meant for that purpose and, in doing so, break prepared to put up the dollars. He has tried to the law. That is something that we do not want push the Commonwealth into putting up the to see happen. I have seen instances of that dollars, but the reality is that it has always happening where there is not enough been the prerogative and the responsibility of recreational land. People have trail bikes or the State to acquire the land for national horses and they look to use public land. In parks. The Minister could compensate land- using public land they put pressure on the holders and retain most of the land in the form activities on that public land. At times it can in which it is currently being used, that is, for a even be dangerous to ride horses or trail bikes recreational purpose. At the same time he in certain areas. There is no question that would be expanding the national park estate. adequate recreational land needs to be Having said that, I am very concerned provided in areas which are easily accessible about the five-year transitional period that the to the people. Minister is talking about. There are instances in If the Minister wishes, as most of us do, to which that in effect puts a freeze on activities see that the national park estate is provided or demands on that land that have already for, there is a very good way in which he can been recognised. I am referring there, for acquire more land. If he is genuine, under the instance, to a case that I know of in the Miriam tree-clearing guidelines or the vegetation Vale Shire. In the future a road will be needed guidelines land-holders will have to set aside to connect the Agnes Water area—which, areas of vegetation that are under threat or incidentally, is the fastest growing area in endangered. I do not see why this Queensland—with Gladstone. That has always Government cannot come to some been recognised as a future requirement. arrangement with those land-holders, However, this Bill means that the reserves particularly the land-holders who have an area through which this road is proposed to go will of vegetation that is categorised by be transferred to the status of a five-year assessment as being an endangered area, so holding period. It was not set aside from that that that area of land can be claimed by the category initially to be used for that purpose in Government and put into a type of national the future. park estate at the expense of the community. Commonsense tells me and it should tell The Minister is expecting land-holders to the Minister that, where an area of land has provide a community benefit at their own been identified for a future purpose, it should expense. That is where the legislation is not come into the category of the five-year wrong—very wrong. The Vegetation assessment process. It should be set aside Management Act does not provide for land- initially to guard against the uncertainty that holders who will be adversely affected, and in comes with the future of a road development. I some cases, as the Minister knows, that will be am sure that there are other situations such as to the extent of hundreds of thousands of this throughout the State. There is no doubt in dollars—not just thousands of dollars. In my mind that there is a failure to provide for consultation with the land-holding this situation in the legislation before the organisations, the Minister should establish a House. In specific circumstances, the Minister way in which he can add that land to the should be able to provide for exclusion of land national park estate. that is earmarked for future development to I know that if many land-holders who have ensure that uncertainty is removed for local that type of land were compensated for it, they authorities—in this case, the Miriam Vale would proudly look after that land and keep it Shire. in its current state as their contribution to the I return to the issue of recreational land national park estate. They would know full well versus national park. There is no doubt in my that they were doing a service to the mind that in many instances where land has community in ensuring that that land is been included in the national park estate there preserved in its current state for future has been a lack of management of that land. 3600 Special Adjournment 5 Oct 2000

The local government investigation into the numbers and will do what it likes. It will pass resources allocated for national parks this legislation. highlighted that issue. There is no doubt that However, there are human elements to there has not been adequate fire control this legislation, and I have referred to them. In measures, adequate burning off periods and particular I mention people with stock grazing so on, to protect that estate in the long run. permits. They are dependent on those There are forestry roads and activities permits. I hope that this Government will show occurring within those areas which protect the some compassion in allowing permit holders to area. Once it goes into national park, unless continue to operate in the way they have. there are allocated resources, there is a risk of Most of them are operating in accordance with increased damage to the natural environment nature conservation practices. They are not by many things, including wildfires. That in abusing the land. Even if they were, I am sure itself is further reason why there should be there are rules and regulations the Minister adequate land set aside from the estate and can enforce to ensure that they do not abuse kept in the recreational area. This does not the land. It is light grazing, which does not take it out of the preservation area; it affect the land. In actual fact, keeping the maintains it in a preservation area for particular vegetation, undergrowth and grass down use. prevents damage to the natural ecology of the I have also had representations in relation land by severe fires and so on. to the legislation before the House from It is with regret that the Opposition cannot graziers with permits for cattle grazing. Many of support the Bill before the House because of those graziers are not big graziers, particularly the flaws contained in it. Those flaws relate to in Gin Gin, Bundaberg, Mount Perry and the uncertainty created by the legislation. That Monto, which is located in the electorate of the uncertainty should have been allayed by the member for Callide. They have small areas Minister to the groups who have made and have an additional area of forestry which representations, but it has not. they hold special leases for, whether it be leasehold or freehold, because that makes the Debate, on motion of Mr Hobbs, core area of their enterprise viable. Once this adjourned. additional area is removed from their income- earning capacity, they will be unviable. I would SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT hope that the Minister will take that into consideration when assessing and Hon. T. M. MACKENROTH (Chatsworth— implementing the effects of this Bill. At the end ALP) (Leader of the House) (12.15 a.m.): I of the day, there is no doubt that this Bill will move— pass through the Parliament. The Government "That the House, at its rising, do adjourn has the numbers. As I remember the Leader until 9.30 a.m. on Tuesday, 17 October 2000." of the House once saying, it does not matter how much we on this side of the House jump Motion agreed to. up and down and how logical our arguments The House adjourned at 12.16 a.m. are, the fact is that the Government has the (Friday).

G. A. NICHOLSON, ACTING GOVERNMENT PRINTER, QUEENSLAND—2000