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Charles H. Older (Part 1 of 2) The American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews The Museum of Flight Seattle, Washington Charles H. Older (Part 1 of 2) Interviewed by: Eugene A. Valencia Interview Date: circa 1960s 2 Abstract: In this two-part oral history, fighter ace Charles H. Older is interviewed about his military service during World War II. In part one, he describes his experiences as a fighter pilot, including his time with the American Volunteer Group and with the United States Army Air Forces in the China-India-Burma Theater. Topics discussed include his service and training history, his missions in Burma and China, and his thoughts on various aircraft. The interview is conducted by fellow fighter ace Eugene A. Valencia. Biography: Charles H. Older was born on September 29, 1917 in Hanford, California. He joined the United States Marine Corps as an Aviation Cadet and completed his flight training in 1940. Initially assigned to Marine Fighting Squadron 1 (VMF-1), Older opted to resign his commission in order to join the American Volunteer Group, then forming in Burma. He served with the AVG until the group disbanded in July 1942, after which he returned to the U.S. and joined the Army Air Forces. For his second combat tour, Older returned to China and served as group operations officer and deputy commander of the 23rd Fighter Group. After the end of World War II, Older joined the Air Force Reserve and went on to serve with the 452nd Bomb Wing during the Korean War. As a civilian, he pursued a law career and in 1967 became a superior court judge in Los Angles, California. In the early 1970s, he served as the presiding judge in the Charles Mason trial. Older passed away in 2006. Biographical information courtesy of: Boyce, Ward J., ed., American fighter aces album. Mesa, Ariz: American Fighter Aces Association, 1996. Restrictions: Permission to publish material from the American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives. Transcript: Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services 3 Index: Personal background ....................................................................................................................... 4 Marine Corps flight training ........................................................................................................... 5 Assignment with VMF-1 and joining the American Volunteer Group .......................................... 6 Training with the AVG ................................................................................................................... 7 Operational logistics ....................................................................................................................... 8 Thoughts on aircraft capabilities ..................................................................................................... 8 AVG discipline and combat readiness .......................................................................................... 10 Intelligence reports on Japanese aircraft ....................................................................................... 10 Thoughts on pilots......................................................................................................................... 11 Ferrying Curtiss P-40E Warkhawks from India to China ............................................................. 12 Capabilities and tactics of Japanese forces ................................................................................... 12 Service with the U.S. Army Air Forces ........................................................................................ 14 Experiences with various aircraft.................................................................................................. 15 Differences in aerial tactics ........................................................................................................... 16 4 Charles H. Older (Part 1 of 2) [START OF INTERVIEW] 00:00:00 [Personal background] EUGENE A. VALENCIA: Colonel Older, may I ask where you were born, sir? CHARLES H. OLDER: Hanford, California. EAV: Hanford. For goodness sake. Then you are a native. CHO: Yes. EAV: Did you live there through your first— CHO: No, I moved away from Hanford when I was quite young and came to Los Angeles. EAV: May I ask the size of your family at that time, sir? CHO: Well, I have one brother and Mother and Father. EAV: I see. Did you go to high school and grade school here, sir? CHO: Yes, I went to Beverly Hills High School. Went to grade school in Los Angeles and Beverly Hills. EAV: And college in this area? CHO: Yes, undergraduate at UCLA and law school at USC. EAV: May I ask what your hobbies were during this time, sir? CHO: Oh, the usual sports. Astronomy. I used to make telescopes as an amateur. My brother and I did that. Swimming, hiking, camping. EAV: Were you involved in any sports or college activities, student body work—this sort of thing? CHO: I was student body president in high school. College, nothing particular that I can remember. EAV: [unintelligible 00:01:35]—were you [sound of tape recorder being adjusted]—before you went into the military? 5 CHO: Just part-time jobs. EAV: May I ask what they were? CHO: Oh, I worked vacations. Department stores, things like that. 00:01:59 [Marine Corps flight training] EAV: When did you decide to first go into the military? CHO: Well, I was taking ROTC at UCLA and finished the four-year course there, but I didn’t start thinking about flying until about the last year of college. Then I applied for Aviation Cadet as a Marine cadet and took the elimination training at Long Beach, then went on to Pensacola. EAV: Well, that was the time you could make a selection before you went in as a cadet. CHO: Yes. EAV: When I went through, you were—top ten, they said, that sort of thing. When was your first flight, sir? CHO: My first ride in an airplane was about 1936, but my first flight where I got to handle the controls was in 1939. EAV: Now, that was during your flight training at— CHO: Yes. EAV: …Los-Al? CHO: At Long Beach. EAV: Did you have any particular humorous incident during that time? CHO: [pauses] I’ll be dead if I don’t recall. [laughs] EAV: May I ask what the most interesting experience during your flight training might have been? CHO: Well, I suppose your first solo flight is probably the thing that comes to mind immediately. Oh, we had—I had many interesting experiences at Pensacola. It was a great flight training school. I suppose the next greatest thrill after the first solo would be the first time I soloed in an F4B-4. EAV: That must have been something. I—that was just a little bit before me, but… 6 CHO: That was more like flying than anything I’ve ever been in since. EAV: At that time in the Marine training, you went—or specialized in fighter aircraft, fighter tactics, rather than seaplanes. Is this true at that time, sir? 00:04:15 CHO: Well, we didn’t specialize in Pensacola, except—well, it—yes, you are right. At that time, they cut out the seaplane work. I think it was my class, was the first class where they cut out the seaplanes, and you went to Squadron 5 fighters instead. [Assignment with VMF-1 and joining the American Volunteer Group] EAV: Did you—after graduation where did you go, Colonel? CHO: Then I was assigned to VMF-1 at Quantico. EAV: And how long were you there before you went with the AVGs? CHO: Well, I started in VMF-1 in April of 1940, and I went with the AVG in—I left the Marine Corps in July 1941. EAV: Well, with VMF-1, that gave you considerable fighter training. CHO: Yes. We spent seven months on maneuvers with the fleet in the West Indies, Guantanamo, Virgin Islands, working off the carriers. And then we came back to Quantico, and about that time, the contact man for the AVG—or one of them—came around. Actually, he was a contact man for the Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company, which was the company with which we had our contracts when we went over with the AVG. We had a one-year written contract. EAV: Yes, sir. CHO: And CAMCO was the name of this company set up by William Pawley. EAV: I was reading where the executive officer was—order was signed April 15th, ‘41, authorizing the induction. Did you go over on the Jagersfontein? CHO: No, I went over on the Zaandam, which was later sunk off Brazil by the Germans. EAV: I’ll be darned. Did you arrive with the first group, Chuck, at—bear with me in pronunciation—Kyedaw? K-Y-E-D-A-W? It indicated in the book it was the first assembly point 7 of the AVG, where General Chennault [Claire Lee Chennault] indicated that they had bad food, bugs, and rotten climate. CHO: [laughs] Well, the first assembly place was at Toungoo, T-O-U-N-G-double-O, which is about 120 or 30 miles north of Rangoon. EAV: I understand that there were ten resignations, he said, when he finally met with the AVGs for the first time. He had to accept ten resignations because of the climate, food, and bugs. CHO: Well, there were some boys that got a little discouraged and decided to come home for one reason or another. 00:07:14 [Training with the AVG] EAV: Chuck, we also read with great interest that the General said that he had his kindergarten, which consisted of a 6:00 a.m. class, for about 72 hours of ground school before flying started with the AVGs. Recall any incidents? CHO: Yes, we had ground school every morning starting when it was still dark. And the reason for having it so early was because it gets so hot in Burma later on in the day that you can’t fly the airplanes. You can fry an egg off the wings. And so you had to do your flying either in the early morning or late afternoon. So we had our ground school even earlier so we could get that out of the way and get in the air. EAV: Mostly tactics, this sort of thing? CHO: Primarily tactics and intelligence, as little as they knew about disposition of the Japanese forces and the types of equipment they were flying. The performance characteristics of the Jap fighters, as far as they knew them, and of course, our own performance characteristics. EAV: Yes, sir. It also indicated that a great deal of time was spent in transitioning some pilots who were torpedo and bomber pilots into fighters.
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