University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

Sid Dawson Memoir

D323. Dawson, Sid Lawwell, J. Richard Moyer, William J. Reynolds, Captain Thomas J. Memoir 26 pp.

STEAMBOATS AND INLAND RIVERS This memoir consists of four separate interviews with individuals who have lived and worked on the Ohio River. Reynolds discusses running a showboat; Lawwell recalls the 1913 Manchester, Ohio flood and his grandfather Captain Prather; Moyer recalls the 1913 Dayton, Kentucky flood and the 1917 ice flood; and Dawson, the leader of the Riverboat Ramblers Band discusses showboat bands and music.

Interview by John Knoepfle, 1957 OPEN: released by John Knoepfle

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1957 University of Illinois Board of Trustees Dawson Memoir

Captain Thomas J. Reynolds (7 pages) J. Richard Lawwell (4 pages) William J. Moyer (6 pages) Sid Dawson (7 pages)

These interviews were conducted by John Knoepfle in 1957 as part of the river tape collection. The interviews are catalogued under the name of Dawson Memoir.

COPYRIGHT 1989 SANGAMON STATE UNIVERSITY, SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS

All rights reserved. No part of this work may be reproduced or transmitted in any form by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopyingand recording or by any information storage or retrieval system, without permission in writing from the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9243. Preface

Thismarnxscript isthepmkctof atap recorded interviewccfflducted by Jahn -fie in 1957. Maqaret Ikeder transcry.ihd the tape ard Dr. EMepfle edited ard reviewed the transcript. Tkie and other interVi~w8in a series on steamboslts & inland rivers were pmdwed under the auspices of the Public Library of Cincinnati d Hamilton County, Qhio and Sangm State Universiw, Springfield, Illinois.

This collection of fmr memoirs consists of Captain Thama~tJ. Reynolds, who is captain of the ~iramCollege Shmkat Majestic ami discusses the running of a shcrwboat; J. Richard Lawwell, aodiscusses t.h@1913 Mand'lehter, Ohio flood and his grandfather, Captain Frather; William J. Eaoyer, who discusses the 1913 Dayton, l&ku&y flood; and Sid Dawson, who is the leader of the RivdtRamblers Band and discusses shadmat musicians and music, Jahn -fie was born in Chhtiin 1923. He obtained his FLD. in literature from Saint Lwis University in 1967. Dr. Knoepfle is presently a professor of English at Sangamrm State University. He was nanwd Illinois mthor of the Yeax in OCMXX, 1986. ~ohnand his wife Peghave one daughter and three sons, 1953-1955 while working as pmlu--dimor of an educational station, WCEIVrV, Cincinnati, Dr. Knoepfle praposed a project on steamboats and inland rivers. These river rmmh are a result of the msec& collected durm 1954-1960.

Rsaders of the oral history memoir should bear in mjnd that it is a twansCrip'k of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and editor mght to preserve the informal, comemati- sttzyle that is hiherent in such historical scxlrces. Sangman State University and the Rzblic Library of Cincinnati and Hamiltcr~CcrwYty, CUlio are not mspnsible for the factual accuracy of the mmir, nor for vim qre8sed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It my xlot be re- in whole or in part by my means, electronic or mechanical, without pdssion in writing fram either the Oral History Off ice, Sang- State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62794-9243 or the CUyrsltor of Rare Books and Special Collections of the Public Library of cinchti and Hamilton County, Ohio, 45202-2071. Capbin Thanas J. Reynolds, Cincinnati, Ohio. David Amold and June Ashweiler, Interviewer.

Q: [Dave Amold] We are aboard the Hiram College Shawboat Majestic at the foot of Market Street, Public Wharf, Cincinnati, Ohio, (Whistle blm) We have here with us the Captain of the Majestic, Th- J. Reynolds of West Virginia. Say hello, Cap. A: Hello.

Q: Well you get no more than yau bargain for. Qptain, haw my years for you in shhtirag?

Q: And haw mny years have you been with the Hiram College bunch?

Q: Hcrw do you like workhq with the college kids? A: Fine.

Q: Do you think they put on sham like they used to in the old days? A: A good bit like the old days.

Q: Haw about the crcrwds, do they change mch? A: Well no, not too mu&, same better I guess it is.

Q: Captain, ycru used to run this boat all by ycnuself, that i~ your family used to he the &w and you used tc, do sane of the directing and acting, that's right isn't it? A: Yes.

Q: What are sane of those old &CTWS you used to do, I;ure of the city and sclare of those oldies?

A: Yes, Lure of the City, St. Elmo, East Lynn, all those old plays.

Q: Ned Albert. God old shows. Your first boat wa& what andwfiat Y- did you start out? A: It was the Illinois, I don't the year. Camin Thamaa J. Reynolds 2

Q: That burned down in Foster, WntucsCy, right? a: Yes. Q: Was that whim you built your first boat, the America? A: %tgs right, built the mica after that.

Q: Yau built this boat when? A: Built this in 1923. a: Aria what happened to the Americzl? A: Sold it to my brother. Q: I see. Is it still afloat 2lrrywhere?

A: No. It's on the Green River, they built a summer hare out of it. (pa-) Q: Cap, tell us what it used to be like hck in the days there were a lot of showhats on the rivers. What were sane of the names of them? Cotton Blosscnn?

A: Cotton Blossom, Sunny South, Greater New York, Frenclh's ~msation, fcrurteen in all.

Q: That's a lot of hts. DO YOU happen to -what happened to mst of those?

A: Yes, they either sank or tore up in a wind storm.

Q: You were tell- us a mament ago about the professional actom you had on, maybe ytru have rxm significant incidents you might liks to relab or about your family in the shuw? I lnmw that you have told ma elysmne pretty humorous ones, perhaps you can mmabr scrme of t.hOseraaw? A: Well my Emily tmk Wte a part in the shw and the actors, I had so many of them I don't bc1w much about them now, Q: I see. I would like to introdtuce naw our business mger June Ashweiler, who has been with the Hiram College grwrp for five seasons ard ahe perhaps would have sane light to thrclw on this and maybe she can get Cap to talk about the old days. J: [JLuhe Ashweiler] Hello. Qp just said he had a lot of good ones and a lot of bad stories. I mrmbr once he wzla telling me sawthing abut Wing the slm times when mlewuuld ccrme dawn to the river and bring potatoes and things likk that along to pay for the &m. Is that right, Cap? A: Yes, that's right, Captain Thcrmas J. Reynolds 3

J: Is mt all you have to say abmt it?

J: We had to hep the ahowhoats going me way or araother, didn't we?

A: HardthEs. J: In hard times people would bring dam potatass and chi- too sametkes, didn't they? Axl butter, aqthirq just to get on the ht. Theyhadto~andseethesh~tshawhonewayor~er. A: That was in Howerlsday. J: I see. Well Cap, you have a long lh, it was your daughter that used to play the calliope. A: Yes, Catherine. J: Yaur daughter CaUlerine played the calliape and your son Tcrnmry did %med.ancing. Thetwoof thermdidsamsdancingontheboat?

A: T2mt's right he did dancing, dnmaning, atrything you wanted hhto do* J: He was also advance man tw, wasn't he? A: Yes, advanceman.

J: In other words Caps1 family took care of the whole &mw? A: Thatlsright.

J: Hewekept his boat go- for along time naw. How do you keep it going this way and kaep it in such good amlition? A: Well working with Hiram Cbllege I guess. J: I guers I ask for that one. What do you think abut these college kids, Captain? Do~runtheahc~waswellasacaneofthe professional groups do?

A: They do a very gdjob of it, yes.

J: Does #e mnplete format of the shm keep SQmewhat the same? Did the old sham have the Wodlrama, the czuady sales, the vaudeville acts much the same as we do ncrw?

A: That's right, the same way. J: I mad scme stories abut the vaudeville acts baing spliced into the m&lcdmm. Did yau wer do it that way? A: Wall yes we did. We would run an act of the play ard an act of vaudeville. To change curtains ycru Imcrw. Captain Thcrl~sJ. Reynolds 4

J: Oh I sea, in Mxem. We have an act, we call it now, every onceInawhileinbe~a&lyW@change~tWmorethan erbout three or four -. So that's what you used those vaudeville inthatwaythen? Hmlongisthecalliopebeenonboplrdncw?

A: About thizty-four years. J: About thirty-fan years. Is this the biggest one on the river? A: Yes, it's the biggest one and the last one that Nichols made in Cinchti.

J: In Cinchti, Ohio? It was made right here. Do they make ~li~any longw, Cap? A: Not that I how of.

J: -use we have tried to get parts for aurs and we have had a rough th~do- it.

A: Tkis the only calliope on the Qhio River.

J: Made by Nichols. I guess the Avalon still has one. A: They don't have it. J: They don't have it any longer?

A: I heard they got rid of it, I don't )acrw.

J: We can hear this calliope for what is it five miles, Cap? A: Supposed to hear it four miles all away m. J: Fcrurmiles all away around. It tabs a lot of pressure, doesn't it?

A: Eighty pmds. J: Eighty pounds of steam amhq out of those keys. Takes a lot of muscles to play it too, doesn't it?

A: That's right. (chuckles) Laok at this boy right here, see those big muscles? J: Cap's son, Johnnie rww plays the calliope on the bat dong with David Arnold whcnn you vxm talkirYg with before, It takes tww of them tohold-keysdcrwnthesedays.

Q: ollld just tall her we do twice as gcd a job that way don't ycu see* FOUThmdsarebetttwthan~. A: Neither one of thean can play a tune by themselves, (chuckles) That bsau dl. Q: Needless to say we resent that, Cap, I have heard saw stories abut samthes you tied up in high water saneplace and got studc in the mud. Is that story true?

Q: You must have been there? A: Iwas there, Givemanother one.

Q: Another me. Did you ever have any rsal serious trrruble with any of your professional actors, It seems to me me thing that we have elimhatd in the college group because it is mre or 1- cox]9enial.

Yes, I had a bit of trouble with them drinking. John Rmepfle, Intaxiewer.

A: I was born m the Ohio River at lhnzhester and have a nunber of recollections of the 1937 fld, but not in Mmchester, at Cincinnati. My reoollections at Manchester are of the 1913 flood. I was very young at the thbut I do recall that our hmne on Second Street in Ma.nd1~st.6~hmme qletely engulfed by the flood. That the entire fdlyhadtome cut of the second story Wherewehadmwed and they enptied into the mwbats and [were] taken to the country for the duration of the flcd. I also dlthere were two floods 1913 ancl the terrible lrress whia was the result of the flood and having to clean out the hame and so on. MygmqpmnbwereW. W. m-ather~~~alsoresidentsof -tar and ny grandfather was knam as Captain Fmther. He med, rss aur Emily did, fml&n&ester to incht ti h~the perid following the Civil War am3 lxein~a pilot or captain of a river s~andwasinthetradeontheahio~~.He~rpsconneztedwith a timare and he had a small boat which he called the Katie Prather which he plied up and dam the Ohio peddling t'~nware. He &start at Cincirnati with a load of thmre, go up the Ohio to the Kana-, up the &mawha to Charles- peddling his timare. After the disposing of his lwd, would take on a load of crockery and then methe cmcbry back dmthe Ohio. So that was his bushfor a mmbm of years, I don't know hcrw many exactly. The Katie Przther was named after his youngest daughter Katherh who had Eow. daql~ters, one of whm was my mother and a son. So there was a very close tie there with the name in the family. In later years he sold the Katie Fmther & went inm mt was knom as the ~ssiontrade. He -the boat would go up and dawn the river picking up poultry and livesto& of various kinds to bring to the dsionmarkets in Cincinnati. There ie a very interesting story about the Katie Prather that has becam more or less, mch of, the lore of the Ohio. It is said that the Katie Rather had a load of turkeys to pick up on the Ohio Bsush Mdthat~ecrewheaddqthe~~fm~Ohio;it was elround Thanksgiving tb. A: Brush Creek entered the Ohio just abwe ManChester and it's a fairly good sized stream at its muth where it enters the river and it was navigable to small bats for ~amedistance. So this farm where theyweretopidcupthetwkeyswaslocateduptheBrush~and there was a riffle that had to be navigated In order to get to this farm. They found that the Brush Creek was falling and they just rrranaged to get over the riffle, So what they did, they got up this farm and picked up their crates of turkeys and headed back dawn as fa& as they could becaw they knew they might have scnus difficulty. They got to the riffles and lo and Wold the water had fallen to a pint where they Udn't quite get war, So the crew of the Katie mther, hcrwwer, was equal to the situation as the story unfoK Theyhadama~that~~~able~meetthemanycircumS~ which are encountered on the river. So he ordered the crew to take the turkeys out of the crates. Which they did and he then ordered them to f~tmthe feet of the turkeys to the deck of the bat and at a cxmmW he ordered the boat to go full speed ahead, he shot a blundabws aver the heads of the turkeys, they at- to fly and escape fm the shot, of course, and it was just enough to lift the ntie Prather wer the riffles of the Wruah Creek and they gat dmto the moand dcrwn river to cinchti and got their produce to mket h the pmpr th. Nuw that is the stary, as I say, of the Katie Przlthar.

Q: An amazing tale, A: ZWI of course we hear many stories like that associated with the riverand~.~crmet~ycslwonderwhethertheyare~or~etherthey were not true. The Katie Prather I knuw was a registered boat and my grandfa- was the captain. I happened to ask Fred Way abut the stmy one time and Fred immediatley began to laugh and tell ma that he knew of the story, that it had been on the river many, many years and that all the oldtimas knew it. In fact the Waterwa Journal had printed it not ts>o long ago. So I think, I'm -7Fsure ere is a basis of fact and it my be of course stretched to sane degree but that is the story of the Katie Prather that has been told to me and that many, many rivermen knm abut. Willh5. Mnyer, April 7, F't. Thoms, IGerrtucky. John Knopfle, Interviewer.

Q: Mr. Mqer lived near the river in Dayton, Kentucky during the 1913 flood 2md during the ice jam dchfollawed a few years later, and he is going to talk about thase events. A: In~1913floodI~habcRzt~thirdgradeh~laru3.we lived on Lmer Third. The back end of crur house actually opened up on the river; although tpe were a good three or four hundred feet froan the river, we ddlook out aur ba- right down over thmqh crur field into the river. We spent-, many a day on the river because we had a came and we liked it. Dxrw the 1913 flood inm me of the thingsthat~nmmbr,thatthewatergotuptowithin~~of the eaamd floor of ow house. Q: How high was the water then? A: The river up to about sixty-nine point sane cdd feet. It didn't quite hit- seventy. Q: Was that in winter of the year? A: That was in the sprm, I don't recall exactly the date but it was in the early spring of 1913. Itmtrying to think of sane of the thm that ware most vivid that. I remembr the aftemards rather than the beforehand because going to school why we wasn't interested h the river and after it got up right in the front of the hausewndkeptusfrrrm~inthatway,wecouldalways-inthe backway. EUt after it once got smnmded why yawere tram. Dad always had a barge he always kept dmin the back lots and whmser high water wlaild came up why that was our ace in the hole, to get anythhg out that we had forgotten; all the heavy stuff always went out first, the piano. In those days we didn't have furnaces, no cellars, it vras a big blast stove. A squm,cne, it at in one ram and heatsd the whole house. And that was st~llup I Icnclw. It was in early spring and &id had gat- ozrt all the heavy Azrniture arrd mrved all the other furniture upatairs and just a week before that ny ycrung86tb~wasbarn, Wellthewaterkeptcconingupandcmning up ard md got a litttle worried. Finally when it got about three feet m the first flwr and he was transporting b21& aml foato get gmoxie~and so forth in a boat or a john boat we czllled than in thase ths, thoea great big flat things. could pt an enommls amcRznt of people or weight on Wmm. They got a l~ttlebit womied so hetodkmandmyyoungestbrotheroutoverthebackroof, the klm roof, was zlbout like a swmer kitchen we had, and got dmin the johnboat~took:~uptcrwn,mymotherandmyy~e~tbr0ther qtam to my aunts. I vividly remrhr that thing when it as all aver, walkirag into our house, and emqbdy in that neighbo~tmd,they called it IXxtchtOwn at that tb, I don't bcw there maybe were a lot of Dutch people living up there. Mn&t of the grown people all had hip boots On, WqpmCrwner and 1'11 forget Dad bought US, lrry ycrungerbrotherandrymrther, Imerrtionedhewasthreeyearsyc~uager thanIwas, apairof kneeboots. Wewentduwnwithhimafterthe =tars wmt dcrwn, and skqping into that house and seeing the plaster off the walls and off the ceiling and mud about W llnches thi& all aver the place where you used to have yaur txqxts and furniture and so forth. It was mrt of a sickening fdirug. But it didn't seem to bother Dad or any of them, any of the people dmthere, all got busy, cleanedup, got the hose out and txmhbd it down and got themess, ~wecleanedthethinguparkl~dofcoursehadtoleaveitdryout.

[email protected] the things I might xnention, too, when people durn there hew that they were going to have a flood they would prepare Wir hause. They took mmythbq out of it and bore hales in the floor to ksep it fram buckling; they'd prop up all the windows, take off the dm. Just let the water have a full sway of the hcruse, so no buckling or arrythingwmld take place. Thenwhen it was over, why you would scrub it up anl all yourwater run dcwnthmgh those holes undermath, you hadnocelleirsandtherewasnothinginthere, onlyDaddidhavea dirt cellar and one back he always used for storage for Esuits and vegetables; he was in -the fruit vegetable business. We used to have bslsrels arad barrels of apples and pkcbas and things of that so*dcrwnthem, buS.yazkraawweg&that out first. mt was about the situation of the 1913 flcd so far as I rermb~. 1917 that was a differant story, I was around Wve then, and I ~q~~to~lthatmorn~and~u~lsnosignofany water corrungup. It had the ice gorge, gorge and up in the rives, there uras talk &out it. No radio or anything in them days, vhy it was extras out wery hour or so in the day that would give yau information. That I s the only way you Wdwer get arry informtian as to atwas happening on the river there atside of ohserving it.

Q: Was that the Penny press? A: No that was the old Cammzial Tribune and of course the present Emuhzr, F~~tand~imes~tarthatwWeusedtahavefaur ppers3. ffiEE UsadFbeTE mming paper, the Ccaanercial Tribune. It was al- the irer. BR all of them was caning artery once in a while with in% orma lon on the river, and arry ice stories,

I nmenber it WEIS just a solid mass of ice, it was lh one chunk of ice would caoe up ard slide up on top of another and then freeze, anothermswmldgetmuptopof thatandclhbAhigherandfreeze them. Ismcalcasoficabiggersquarathanthismomanlmaybeit wasn't&tethgtbigbPltmbejngayoungsterwmWorm times higher than I was. But danr in back of an plaoe there was Wt arclwof oldbaqes inthe river abaut ahuckd foot fmmshore and between the barges anl the shoreline that river froze just lib a lake. It was mm0t.h as glass, and boy, we kids used to have a wrmderful time skathgonthElt weryevmiqafter sdxml. That That was the time, I wasn't there at the time, but that was the time when, what's her name . . Ruth (Leland), when one day~Ni~ wasfound. IHcallmdtalkingabcutit,asthoywarestanditlgdown there watching aare of this ice W mbble going dcwn and there was a house on top of a house cmbg dam the river sticking up Md fmzm intheiceMavlere~abaskatcnthereMdthqrcauldhearcrying fmn a little baby. They went cut and cne of the mn went cut ard grabbed the basket and got bade safely. There was a little baby girl. They were never able to fhd that child's pcmts and the Niamms had nfyverhadanychildrensctheyadaptedhar, raisedherardtadayshe is married and has a couple of dlildren. She ms a product of the 1917 ice g~rgeand fie. That was abut the situation that I think that I remcmtar. I mmthr see$ picturplr, but later on here, had to be durirq the war when the river fmze over and of course we were dawn them then but we wasn't living near the river, End of side One, Tape One

A: People have all mwed in the last thirty years, lxmty years--mre rapidly right along. In thosa days why it was nothing to spnd an hour and a half or two houm wallung Emone end of tam to maybe Dayton dam to Newport and go to a store or to see samebody. You would ttinke an afternoon stroll. If you were rich enough to have a horse and bzlggy then yau wmld get out the hggy hitch up the harse&ndtakearidethatway. Manyatimewewmtonthestreetcx to visit pecrple right out here in Delhi zlrd back in Chimati, well that was an all day jaunt. Nm it is twmQ or thirty minute drive frcanyaurh~tothem

Q: Of coume that's thirty mbutes at the risk-ofyour life. A: Oh yes. Sid Dwsm, Colmhus, Ohio, John Khoepfle, Interviewer.

Q: This is the bandrocan of the Grand View fnn and I am talkhq to Sid Damwho is the leader of the River&& Ramblers. He has been on the Missouri and Mssissippi on the Galdenrod and a few other steamboats and I hope he will be able to carry the ball fmhere.

A: I don't really knaw where to begin. I suspect that being a St. buhm or bing raise3 in very early childhood in St. I~uis,like everyone else that grew up duwn tA-iem came in pretty cl- contact with riverboats either thmqh actually working with them or just actually seeing thean on the river. My first recollection of the s-tswere the early excursions, and I can't -the name. it nas either the mi& or the &pitol. mpsycru will -, in aboPxt 1935. Q: It's still mming I think? A: Yes I think it's still dcrwn in Dallas, or no itfain Texas mnadmxt Galveston, I qpe. At any rate that was the forerunner actually of the Admiral wluch is the big exmion boat in St. Lmis tcday. About the most vivid recollection I have of the, which one was it, the President or the Capitol on th s- Line? I Jxxmabm seeing Fate Marable playing calliape I was about eight old, smmkhhq like that, I was pretty young. Playing with the plugs in hfs ears abaPrt 7:30 or eight o'clock in the maming, hurrying all the people on far the daily, they had an all day excursian I think and an evening d~.That w2ls I beliwe just before Fate, when did he die, in 1939 or 1938? Well, he was, as I was saying, playing on this bat and1 sawhhvery~lyinthemo~,Iknaw, Iwasprettyyamg. It ms prt of actually what later was the beginning or inspiration for this id= of the Riv-t Ramblers. I rmn the fact that Fate Marable and wlsequmtly other people we worked with azld both Frank and I played with what I guess wculd be one of the greats of riverbat jazz, Billy Jackson. He was called or cansidered the khg of riverboat jazz. Billy's heyday in the twenties, 1926 and 1927. I -1 illy saying it was an all day job. They used to start out in the rimming and they played, well like at nmth, a couple of hmm, and they played in the afternoon for dancing in the salons or saloons. They called them saloons, didn't they? Q: 'Ibis was on the bat? A: Yes, on the boats canhg out of St. bais, and out of New Orleans, Cinchti & Maphis. Then they did the evaning session and then the night dam*. All and all the bandls would work about ten or mvehours a day.

Q: It was a pretty grueling operation?

A: Yes, well the pattern that ~~JEYset then is pretty much follmd by the fwrmraining excursion boats today, in that, when they hit a port the band marches on the gangplank and plays. Mnre or less ballyhoos the attraction of the emrsicm on the boat and so on, they take the 1- -18 at. They might hit, for -let I mmabr playhg in ReWirg, Mhmsota on the me trip I mde on tba Gordon C. Greene we went up as far as Minneapolis, I got off in -Mumeapolis. We gat off at Redwing rnnd played on the gangplank and got back on, and the people gat on ad we took them up to Minneapolis. Then I suppose the bat brought them back, mt I got off in Minneapolis. I anyreal interest in riverbats fhtcame fram a man by the nan~of Wendell W. Garr3ner who lived in ny hcrmetawn of Feqmm, Missauri, a suburb of St. Louis. Wendell Gardner had I don% haw, he passed away a few years kick, but I grew up with his son, his S(M~and I, in fact we are still very close friends, had one of the largest collections of steamboat pictures. Ferhaps you have come acrcss his name? Q: Yes. A: In fact he had a very highly valuable and fine collection of steadmat pictures. Wendell had been at me tima a riverboat pilot eu#l had served in various functions an rivdmats, He hew Samuel Clatsns, Mark Win, very, verywell. Hewas fmDavenport. Of axuse that was upriver frmn -, Mark Wints original hametclwn. Q: Did Wendell have eury stories about . . . A: Yes, he had an endless store of stories, It's pretty haxd to rembx any actual details in the stories of fires and going a ground and various things. I recall more than mything, since I didgrcrwup practicdlly neighbors and practically in his ham as nwh as in my am, his walls ware lined with pictures of all the variou6, the Clabmmt, and most of the old packets, the Ea 18, the Eagle Line. So totakeusdcrwntotheriveran~yada-tdeal to see, themA Fords, it was in themiddle thirties. Go dam and lookat~oldboatsand~to~of~captains,captain Billy, orne of them I renmbr very well. In fact I think Captain Billy is still running the Goldenrod if I'm not mis.takan. Q: The Mhmri side is pretty foreign to m, E3rcept that I have taped nmllke Caphh Wisherd who worbd out of Missouri. He brought the St, Paul aver here. A: Wl, my personal feelings abut the riverbats were that they were htnmVental, aln#>st as much as anythhg else. In fact I would say mom than anything else Fn spreading jazz or mre or less the gospl amurd, Louis Armsm~lg played his first major engagement on one of the riverboats with Fate Marable's band. Fate Marable was undoubtedly me of the finest or best known of all the riverboat sia Dawwn 3 jazzmen. He had fine orchestras. Very elabcaate, very lqe and well I just aid, daborate orchestras, violins and ev-, the whole wor)rs. Rs I say Louis Armstrong first came upriver out of New Orleans. His first time away frcon hame was on the riverboats playhg well as far as St. Louis and I think he wmt further up to ~venport. Bix Ebiddhde, he is renamed and an inspiration for dl jaz~lllen today, in fact all popular musicians, actually learned and got hie first experience frwm hearing the riverbozt jazz hrds when they hit Davenpmt, Iawa.

Q: Yau were playing a Bei- favorite them, weren't you?

A: We do play quite a few of them. Wxtclaure it nut for the riverboats pabbly Bix quite possibly would never have hmed to jazz as hfs medium of apmssim* gain my crwn personal expriaces bsyond the trip with the Goyrlon C. Gmme were abut 1944 or 1945, I don't mall which, I played an mgag-t on the Goldenrod slmhcwk, the old melodrama. I don't e,they mre doing Orphan Ndl m or sumthing. Itveseen a gmat mmhr of these melodramas of came they am quite aver done and the heuranier the better. ?he audience encourages and hollers.

Q: Saw mein St. Lnuis, I suppose? A: That's right on the Goldenrod. In fact, Jahn, if you go down on the levee in St, Louis, see a mile or so of abut old river paclcets and evm sate s-ers still in existence. In fact I saw one about, it's been a few years ago, going upriver, a fine old s-er still chuggm alq. I don't recall the nam of it, Fultan or -thing. I do believe, I think they are still in -exlsteme, I don't know for Wt pw2308e.

Q: There are still stme big sterm&ed tclws cm the Ohia aperating, and the la is a tramdous taw. That's on the upper river, but the packets are gone ncrw. I think the Gordon Gmme was the last of than* They used the Gordon, they used the Gordon in the Kentuckian, if you s2lw thepiE,

A: No, I didn't see it. Q: They had a taw on the outside. You cuuldnttsee that, of ccrurse: they took her out of retirement as a restaurant.

A: Well I played on the, ray first of course was m the Gordon C, Gmenehxt Ulen on the Goldsnrod. Then lateronth9 S. S. &~uqlas ikEfZi jazz gmup fmn St. Ms. As far as I know ik is still there, itwasatewematadockand ' isdoneupverymuch,likt3 ula 01a early rie- WZZkZmtedeclr lamps ups bell and f- and mt have yau. A very pichzresque, dressed boat. ~1atertheFortGae~crhacrtuallyturnedauttobe~ite a 9.We took the For-?+g&ly on mre or less a percenbge hsis lust for the fun of playing on the river. A bunch of us who lhdthe river sort of felt strongly attracted to the fact that jazz ard the river scat of went had in hard all the way thrcnzgh the history of New Orleans jazz. SO we went cn the -Fort &tqe with the Sid Dawsm 4 idea of playh~maybeme or two- arrdall of a sudden cnrernight it was almost a national success. The St. Lmis Dispatch ran a large spread on it in the sunday rot-ogravure. The peaple of TodEl Magazine ran Wt a three pge thing of jazz m the dss ssippi. Which was hprtant 3n that the Mississippi was so awfully hprtant to jazz. It was the one thhq that brought, in other words, it bmught the folk music considerad the only original Amrican art form or a contribution to the art fom upriver where it cmld be heard by so very many people. Evmtually fram St. Lmis it spread b Kansas City and Mcago and of course to New York and then dl wer the world. So especially a£ter the peaple of Toda and the -pDst Dispatch, then *y we played to capacity m. dmtmt couldn't take the vast mtmber of people and the ship's achitect just happesaaatobeapassenger, dacustmergatupandmadequitea stink abwt the boat was going to capsize unless people s- dappM their: hands and stamping their feet in time to the music. So fmm than on the Fort Ga e, that was the last dseexc-jept for once when it broke 1~388- 4ts moor* in a storm ard a considerable mount of damage ;in 1951, I Miwe that was.

Q: YQU were on there in the forties I guess. A: Well 1949 and 1950~~the late forties and it was shortly after thatIgottheidea, whenIhewIwouldbefo~mycrwngraup,a gmmp to travel, if you wanted to leave St. Ws, I couldn't think of a better idea than with the RivatRamblers, so comequmtly our uniforms were that of the old river&& captains. Q: I can see on here the lapels . . . A: Thatle essentially huw the Riverboat Ramblers started but it could begin beawe I had quite an imp-& rivE&ats, in fact about the mt fun I ever had was playing an the river. I did another stint althmgh this was not a riverhoat w. I had a bad wlzen I was college at Lake of the Ozarks on an -ian bt. We played, in fa& we were on the lake practically all afternoon and all night and we had abart five hours in between in whi& to sleep and eat and so, up until about 1951, I had practically lived on the water of sane sort or Elnoher. Q: That's -. A: FBsmtially that is the whole story.

A: Wlthere is so much and I have a lot of pictures an3 things but I just don't, it's so hard to Jmmlbr so much of th2it yar kncrw*

Q: WhEaI did ycru go to college? A: University of Missouri. I was an mlish major thee. Joumalim. Sid lXw&on 5

A: Yes, I imagine it's quite interesting. I wish I could mnmbr mare. I've been on somatry boats. On the Galdesllrodwe had our publicity stills mde. In fact one of them is around, the wheel that's on display on the Goldenrod and they are taken on the gangplank, we are mmhhg dcrwn the -lank and everytlhg. If we had mom the, I don't have them with rre, they are dcrwn at the hotel. If you will leave yaur address with me 1'11 sand yau a set of them, you might get a kick out: of them. One of them is pretty good, you an see Eads Bridge in the badqmmd and sme packet, I don't remmber the Mms of it m. It was docked diEctly bahind it. Q: Wlgood. We'll take it off at this the.

of side Two, Tape Ons