University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

James Ault Memoir

AU54. Ault, James Memoir 13 pp.

STEAMBOATS AND INLAND RIVERS Ault, riverboat musician, recalls his experiences as a musician on board riverboats on the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers: music and songs performed, bands and musicians, working conditions, and the cargo transported on the boats.

Interview by John Knoepfle, 1956 OPEN: released by John Knoepfle

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1956, University of Illinois Board of Trustees James Avlt Memoir

COPYRIGIrT @ 1988 SANGAMON STATE UNIVERSITY, SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS.

All rights reserved. NO part of this work may bc reproduced or transmilled in any form by any means, clectronic or mechanical, including photocopying and recording or by any information storage or retrieval system, without permission in writing from the Oral History Orl'icc, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois 62708,

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield Table of Contents

Working on the Ebats .

Bmds a,...... Musicians ...... Wages ...... Ear& ...... Roustabout Music ... Freight ...... Upper Ohio...... Spo11S@rs......

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield Preface

This manuscript is the product of a tape recorded intemiew wnducted by John Knoepfle on August 1, 1956. Ma.rgar@t Reeder transcribed the tape and Dr. Knoepfle edited and reviewed the transcript. This and other interviews in a series on steanibats ad inland rivers were produced under the auspices of the Public Library of Cincinnati and ~amiltonCounty, Ohio and Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois.

In this mmoir James Ault discusses his river experiences as a musician on river boats in the 1920s. He reflects on the different bands, their wages, and roustabout music. John Knaepfle was born in cincinnati in 1923. He obtained his Ph.D. in literature fram Saint Louis University ir*1 1967. Dr. Knoepfle is presently a professor of Ekglish at Sangamon State university. He was named Illinois Authar of the Year in October, 1986. John and his wife Peg have one daughter and three sons, During 1953-1955 while working as prodtucer -director of an edumtional television station, Wm-TV, Cinchti, Dr. Knaepfle proposed a project on stemboats and inland rivers. These river memoirs are a result of the mearch collected during 1954-1960. Readers of the oral history mir should bar in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the intewiewer, narrator and editor sought to preserve the informal, comersational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sahgamon State University and the Public Library of Cincinnati and Hamilton County, Ohio are not responsible for the factual amacy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The marmscript may be read, guoted and cited freely, It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or m&mical, without prmission in writing fm either the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, springfield, Illinois, 62794-9243 or the Curator of Rare Eboks and Special collections of the Public Library of Cincinnati and Hamilton County, Ohio, 45202-2071.

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield James Mt,August 1, 1956.

John Knoepfle, Intenriewer.

Q: I'm at the haw of IW. James Ault, on Dale Road in Norwood. Mr. Ault was a musician on a number of steamers Fn the 19201s.

A: The first time, I was in the music business a mmibr of years before I ever worked any of the boats. I thhk the first time I ever worked on any stcaner, though, was up as far as 1928, 1928. The Island Queen and that was just a matter of up and dmthe river to the Island, that was going nowhere. In 1929 I did some work on the Greme he; that was when they were running the Chris Green@ and the Tan Greene. We Were frmn Cincinnati to W1eston. They carried freight on the lower deck and the season was strictly a passenger business tm along with the freight. For entertaimmt they frequatly had a few fellows that played music on the boat, and I made mrmerous trips on both of the bats at different times. Usually about a faur or five piece orchestra and what we did working out of Cinchtihere on those trips just about played the saw on the boats, same type of music as we played for dances around here. Why that was to sane extent was the people that usually took those trips in the summer were, oh, quite a few schmltea&ers. Seemed to draw them for ~ndiana,Michigan, upper Ohio. They'd read literature at fhe travel agencies and they'd think, I1Well,I would 1% to take a river trip.I1 Well they liked a lot of the older typ of nusic, the older tunes, but once in awhile there would be scrme young people on the boat and they would want to let their hair down so sps& so we would play a little jazz, mix it in. But on this prti-ar trip we just more or less played the average pop music of the days at that time. In 1929, February of 1929, I had a trip to New Orleans on the, back in those days it was called the Cincinnati, and the crew was made up of people frm all along the river here that were fm different lines, in other words it was just a get together to make the trip People frmn the Greene hed people frwn the old L and C he, sane of the people fmthe Coney Island cmpny. Pilots and such, sarrre of the other help on the boat. That again was the txse, playing the music on that trip to New Orleans and back was a wepretty much like the Greene Boat; it was wealthy people who could afford the trip taking a winter vacation so to speak. So we played pretty much what we call now society music, in other words tunes from nusical &es and thhgs of that type. We didnlt play tm mch wild mic or anything like that. In other words in the music business you have ta tailor y~uxr style of playing, if you cm tailor it, to fit the mion. Depending on where you are and who you are working for, what they want. I know fm what my experience through, spsakhg of the Island Queen, they used to make trips in the spring & fall amthe season

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield James Ault 2

would clase here. They would normally, originally they usd to go all the way dawn to New Orleans. They'd rrake stops on ~e my dm. mybe Louisville for a muple of days. Ttnlo or three days, at smaller towns, just one night, sametimes they would pick up three ttrwns in one night. Evansville was good for two or three nights. Get on dawn to Maphis, stay thm maybe a week, and get dmto New Orleans fhally, and stay a month or two. This was back in the 1920's and usually when any of the bands that would be playing at that th, when they would get dawn to New Orleans we would still play practically the same style they played up here. In other words they wouldnlt change, that was the way the band played. Of course the regular New Orleans bands would play the style that they were accustmed to play*. A lot 09 ths the people would, there were excursion bats working out of New Orleans, in fact the Capitol was dmthere, There was a colared band on the boat, either a ten or twelve piece hnd, and they played typical of hm the bands played, the 1-e colored bands. B& a lot of times people would, instead of taking that excursion around the harbr of New Orleans, would cane over and take the Island Queen excursion which was a different boat to ride on, a different band to listen to, and like I say, it was a little different style than what they were accustmned to listen to. Even on the way down, like in Memphis the bands played pretty much in Maphis liked they played up here. In other words, with people hearing tunes an records aid radio, I mean maybe they didn't get sane of the latest tunes quite as fast as mey did, but in other words, the same type tunes predominated, We didn't go in for a lot of gut bucket or New Orleans jazz or anykhhg like that. Not that we didn't want to play that style, but like I say, we were trying to fit the occasion where we were working. There was a case, speaking about boats along the river, the steamer Avalon now, I can't remaker what the old name was but that htused to work out of Louisville. See a lot of times these boats changed names maybe three or four times. Q: I think it was the Idlewild or sonaething?

A: Yes, that could have been. There was a band out of Lmisville, they used to cane, it was an exmion boat, they would go up the river out of Lmisville abut ten mile, 1 forget where they went naw. But I dethat boat several times just to, &cause they were &doing afternoon trips and we were only doing evening trips, Just to hear the band and meet the fellows and there again was a case of the band on the at. I can't remabar the fellms' names any more. But is was an eight piece hnd and there again they played about the same style that they would be doing for dances if they were playing in Louisville. The only time that I would hear any, oh, so called riverbat jazz would be like a lot of tiztles same of the boats that were 'wor3&q at of St. Lnuis, the Stmckfm Lines, when we'd run into one of those boats, like maybe playing the same town, like Mesrpshis we'll say, and they were running an exmim and we were running an excursion, a lot of time they would yun an afternoon and we weren't, why we would go and hear the band. A lot of times they would have pretty mch of a jazz band on those boats, but more of the style that was known as riverbat jazz. I used to go uver and bands, like at different spots like that, when I got a chance to. Most of the

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield Jam125 Ault 3

Ix>ats that worked the Ohio was more or less bands that, typicdl ball= bands, because there were a lot of ball- barn h those days and it was strictly ball- bands and a lot of tkwhen the ballrcmm season wouldnlt be going so great, they'd be do* wark on the hts on the river. Smne of the bats that didn't go in for big bands like the old Queen city that ran fmhere to ~ittsbmghfor awhile, they would have only maybe three pieces. It was stylish, samething to keep the people happy or have Ulem sing along with the band. Usually in a three piece graup we used to be drums, piano and sane horns, saxophone or sanething like that. Four pieces well could be drums, piano and then two of almost anything. Like a Sax and tnmpt. Wzt the Greesle Line lhI spke of before, that was usually a four or five piece band. I can remember one time, though, when things were a little slow we took some extra fell- along just for the trip. We had an eight or nine piece band at that particular the. That got to be a pretty good deal. Wzt that's wkn I noticerd about bands that I had occasion to run into and work with along the river was, like I say, you played more or less the same style that you played at dances. In fact I, more or less, was for the older mad because people makjlng those trips as a rule were older people arad they dim't want a lot of loud jazz . When we were working these tramp trips down the river on the Queen and such that was more or less younger people. I mean the typical cmwd that you get along on an excursion. We were playing more jazz on those occasions tbm we would working on these pleasure cruises. Because we weworkirq then for people that wanted to let their hair dmand cut a rug, so we would play that style for them. Although mixed Jcn with the pop tunes of the day too. I got away fmm working on sane hats for awhile and wmt back I think it was in 1933, worked of course on the Island ~~ some more that spring and that fall. That time they didn't go al.1 the way to New Orleans. They were only go* as far as Memphis. It was tm cmpetitive dmaround New Orleans, so they just went as far as Memphis, We usually tmk oh four or five weeks to get dm, leisurely. I lnean like I say stop in different places an the way down. Then we would end up staying at Memphis mywhere fm five to tendays. Thenwewoulddothesan~thingcmhgbackup, Wewere gone for maybe swen or eight weeks in the fall and that was again playing for a younger crowd. We would mix up the style of rraxslc we played. We'd play a lot of jazz and a lot of pop music, mixed up. Because if they heard tunes that the radio pragrams and played records that they wanted to hear they'd ask for it arid we would play it for them. Where a lat of those colored bands that I used to hear on some of thMississippi boats, they played things that strictly were more their style and not tm many so-alled pap tames. There were stme gd that I ran into at different tk. I couldn't tell you off-hand the names of sane of those ban& arrymore, but I knm there were sane good men in sans of those bands that gradually m on up and got into better bands and became top flight naen in their field on their respective instruments.

Q: I know that Sat&uno came up on the lmits.

A: Yes, that was before my time on the bt, They say according to history, I've met him and talked to him a good may years ago, I

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield James Ault 4

haven't ran inta him recently. I hear his records and everytkIng now, though, and see him on shm. That was dong about 1925 or 1926. 1925 I would say he mme up. Of course he would work on excxusion boats, in New Orleans proper. He never made my of the trips caning up on the boats, but he would do exc=ursion boat trips around the harbor of New Orleans because that's bsm going an for a long time dawn there. What did I say the nane of one old boat 'was? The Capitol, yes. There were -other bts besides that. Speaking of Tnrmpet, this don't -in to river especially, although he probably had sane of it in his early days, he was fmDavenport, Iowa, was Beiderbecke. He was around here in 1924 and a little bit of 1925; he worked a couple of spots around cinchti, but he didntt do any Ark on the river around here. I do think he did on the Mississippi in his early days before he came over this way, wha he was working around Indiana and this part of Ohio. He worked armnd here about a year or year and a half in different spots before he went up to ~etroitand joined the Goldkette Ewd. Of course frmn the Goldkette Barad he joined the Whiteman Bmd and that Is about as nu& as I rn ramker of him. still have sane of those old records of his. Q: They are probably collectors itaw now?

A: Smne of them maybe. 1 used to have a lot more records than 3: have now. But I used to lend them out to people, fmlishly that didt.l1t take care of than. You didn't think of them as collectors itms then. I just don't lend them out any more. I haven't play& a lot of them for a lolag time, but every once in a while I get a notion and 1'11 spin a few. Takes me hck. Q: I know there was a man named Sy Rhinehart in Lnuisville, did yau know anything abcrut him? He used to work on the Louisville exmion bats. A: I only recall that I heard the name. I don't mnmbr if I met hh or not; if I did it was quite awhile back. The name strikes some response.

A: Sy Rhb&art, A lot of times I didn't get a chance to mtthose people; they were working at the same the that I was, Unless they were doing an afternoon excursion and I wasn't and I happen& to be there. A lot of times we would be doing an afternoon excursion and then we would have people mne over to visit us. That's the way you would get to meet people from the different bts.

Q: mtkind of a schedule would a musician have on one of those boats?

A: Well, which type bat, you mean the tramp trips on the Island Queen, a regular dance schedule, or the excursion boats?

Q: Well, bath ways.

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield James mt 5

A: On bats like the Island Queen, that was running these dm-, it was more or less on a schedule similar to a regular dance; it wuld be like eight to twelve, four hours, eight thirty to twelve khirky or nine to one. A lot of times we were mmix~,picking up one small tm, then anather small tmn, then another small tam, it was workd out in such a my we'd start at eight, pi& up the fir& kwn, half hour later pick up the next town, half hour later pick up the hext tm, and paddle around a bit and finally along about twelve drop the first tam off, a half hour later drop the next town off. In other words they each got in approximately four hours. That was the usual times for those things. Eight to twelve, eight thirty b twelve thirty or nine to one. Now that held true on mst of the exmion boats. Of course the dance boat, there was an afternoon sightseeing trip; the band usually had to do sane playing. That was usually one of those two to five things probably, one ta five or two to five. WIG you didn't play all that time, you would play a little bit to break the monotony but it wasn't so mu&, those afkmmn things, wasn't so much to listen to the music; it was more sigktseeing but you had to go along and break the routine a little bit, bmthe monotony. On the boats though that, the psenger boats, that were takFng people on these trips to Charleston, to Huntington, Poht Pleasant and such places as that, ad wen like the Elta Queqdoes naw on dmthe Kentucky Lake, lrolsic is just an incidental thing like they may have saw rrmsic on the boat. That evening, after the evening meal if the people are in a mood they'll play map two or three hours. No set th,just when werybodty is in the mod. Smnetimes they will get cuswthat feel like dancing and other times they'll just want to sit around and listen, other times they'll want to sing and you play old tunes that they'll sing along with you, Eut thwe was no set hour or mything of that type and usually it broke up, if you started about eight thirty you may work not steady but to ten m,somtbws eleven; sanetimes you didn't start until he, you would work until about elwen. Three hours would be a long thfor sawthing like that. Q: Well 1929 must have bea hard years for musicians; can you tell me what kind of wag- musicians were mkiq then?

A: A lot depended on where you were working out of. I couldn't say what the bands on the bats along the Mississippi were making. If *they were on tmr and hittirq a lot of places, they mre or Less it was a wage, a Wination of a wage that fit most lccals, so to speak. In other words, what I mean by that, is if a group worked at of st. Iauis on excursions and strictly were always in that jurisdiction, they had to get St. Louis scale, whatever it was in those days. If they worked out of New Orleans and New Orleans only, that prevailed. Now the way it us& to work for us on the Island Queen, although we were out of this jurisdiction as soon as we left Cinchti, itwas usually Cinchti bar^& on the Island Queen and the Cincinnati local made a rate which wasn't as high as if we worM in tam here and yet it was high enough that it would satisfy all the various locabs whose jurisdiction would be in Louisville, Evansville and such places, Paducah. I Wdsay roughly back in those days that that particular trip on the Island Queen, that thing only paid twenty or mty-five

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield dollar a week, m d board. That was back around that the, and even during the depression, 1931-1932-1933, f don't think the price came up wen there, I don't think the price came up bgtond tbat twenty-five, thirty dollars a week until along about 1934 or 1935. I think it came up to around forty-five, fifty-five, I think, finally well, like the Queen on their trip when they had the ~losionup in Pitkdmqh. Back in the 1940's wages were arad in pretty good shape and I mean a fellow, a sideman, not a leader but a sideman, could- himself usually seventy-five bucks a week, and baxd at that time. Getting back to the passenger boats though, that was mre or less a flat rate, like whm we used to male Mardi Gms trips, thwe would be a flat rate guaranteed for you for the trip, T figured an eighteen day trip, eighteen days to get there and back plus three or four days you could stay in New Orleans, and ordinarily you may make fifty dollars, rn and board. You ate with passengers and had a good room. On those passenger boats the meals were good and yau had a good ~-wmand on boats like the Quea which wasn't really quipped for passenger service, you had -e right in more or less witb the crew and eat whm they ate and eat the food they ate, and it wasn't luxurious by my means, but these other boats, the Green@ Line, the foodwaswonderful, thebesttheyr=ouldobtainmdtheranswere always nice, and it was just nu& better traveling mnditions. The summer season an the Greene Line, &l bands they used to we, there used to be either fifteen or twenty dollars, roam and board. Of course that was back in the 1920ts,the late late 1920ts, and the depression, early 1930's. The bands who worked on the exccugions, though, they'd be making anywhere, it sdlike the color& bands never seemed to make as mch money as sane of the other bands that worked out of hem. Like along the Mississippi they would get Wan for cheap wages, In other words maybe fifteen or twenty dollars a week and their rmn and board. Of course that was a big item because they didn't have to worry about their food, didn't have to worry about a place to sleep. The money was just spending mney to them. So wages, you didn't, up until it got into the 1940 Is, you didn't make much money on those tptrips. Q: Life is a little better now? A: Oh yes and of course wages did finally ccane along and then tm the various Locals, instead of trying to give breaks to than lib eey did create, back in the 1920's and 19301s,to create sane work when there was a lot of ather jobs to choose fm, ampetition, the boats, the campanies had to start paying more money because the people would go sanewhere else and work. Plus the 1-1s of the various cities would demand better pay. So it finally started mnhg up paying a Little batter than it did before.

Q: We never established what you played on the bats? A: Bck in those days, well when I first played on the Mts, n'y first professional inswt I played, was banjo. Backwhm banjo was popular me fhtthe. I guess it was dong about 1929, 1928 or 1929 when banjo was starting to die out at that time and guitar was coming in, I thought, Well, should I swiW over or stay with it,

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield stay wi~guitar?" I switched over to saxophone. In fact smie of those trips I was telling you about like on the Greene Line I was play* sax then. The trips to New Orleans I was playing sax arrd on the Quem playing sax. Well then later on I still played sax, I have one left. I used to have a set of them. f switched aver to and that's what I play even now but I guess ftve ken playing tmmpt, since about 1935-1936. Q: Were there any particular &hations of hnds that your remmkr names?

A: You mean that I was with?

Q: Yes, that you were with. A: A that use to be popular amund here an3 also do saw of those trips to, working the Coney Island yeason, plus these trap trips, these trips up and down as far as New Orleans. Scmaeth up as far as Pittsburgh, Art Hicks, I worked with He had a mar band around here and also was well known up and dmthe Ohio and Mississippi. Srmraetimes he would get to, Art Hicks, he had a pretw nice band. There was (pause) trying to Wink of Wt other band that I, well, Billy Shaw used to have a and we did shilar, about the sane type work Hicks was doing only a year or two later. Billy Shaw, he had the barid, a fairly popular one around these parts, Wasn't too well lolawn dmthe river muse like I say we would only get there every once or twice a year. I think Sbaw, 1 *Worked with him, thhk we did about two seasons of those type trips that he had. Oh I think up in 1940 I think it was, 1940 or 1941, I made a trip to, a tramp trip, I was on the Queen again, the Island Queen. We went as far as Memphis that time, &-there about eight days. That band was run by Herman Kershner. That was back in the days when he had bands; now he has a spt dcswntmn just doing piano work by himself. He has the Piano Lounge duwntawn in the Keith's Theatre building on the first floor on Walnut Street. Eht he used to run bands and I worked, I played trumpet in his band, sme sax, and I used to score far the bard, arrange for the band. That's what I've been doing for a goad many Y-, -awing. Q: You are with WLW-Radio, Cincinnati, new mttyou? A: I was with them up until last Octobw, was with them, lacked about a month hsing henty-one years. Just when I thought the job was going to be steady. No, I'm not doing that type work nm muse the field is limited amund here as to writing for bands, so I just more or less gradually edged out of the business. Q: Cincinnati has left a lot of good things go. A: There are sdme good potential msicians here in town right now. There is one trmnbone player I know, he is doing sane selling. He for my money is one of the top ten in the countxy* He could go out with various mtname bands like Jerry Anthonyc But what it wdd cost him to make those trips plus wing tu keep his hmup here with his

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield family, you just don't make it. If he made two hundred bucks a week, he still couldn't cwne out. So he's sitting making far less arad picking up what scraps of jobs he m. Anather trmibone player, in fact he used to be on one of those old Bix Eki- records, he is working over at Beverly Hills, and Bill Rank he is one of the good top men in the country. There are some good trmpst players amml town, same god sax men, a lot of good talent here Fn town. Wzt raw than go out and beat their brains out on the mad nw, they are just sitting here and doing sanething else.

Q: Wander if this fellaw Rank is in Mississippi nw? A: No, I tell you his connection, haw he happened to make mds with Beiderbecke. Rank was playing tmnbne with Whiteman and when Beider33ec)re join& Whiteman, all the time he was with Whim, I should say, wen when he was making records wm under his awn narrae, he was usually using men out of the Whitman kald at that time. But when he made records in Wcago before he wmt with Whiteman, thm it was fellows fm around here or fellows fmm aver around Imihma U or fellows fm Chicago. The men on saw of those records usd to vary a little bit although the name was always the aame. But got so there when he was making records in New York and the time he was with Whiteman, most all the time it was Rank on trmhne, Bill FWk. Usually Tnrmbauer on saxophone and usually the pianist out of the Whiteman band, and bass. George Wettljng, the drummer used to always be on those mrds. So there was a the -t: lilt@them. Rmk plays very good to this day. Plays real good. Q: I would like to ask you same offbeat questions. f krrm as a musician you would have had a sharper ear for any of the sing- the roustabout did. I knm they sang a lot at their work.

A: Even on the boats working the Ohio River there would be, seems like there would bs like a gang of them three or four assigned to one job. Seems like they'd, by this pattern, this rhythm shall we say of whatever they would sing, they would seem 4x1 get the work done quicker and better. Like do the work along @ in the with the lrrusic they were singing. A lot of times they'd would make up safe* pertaining to the work they were doing. They'd sing llTkLis old job is sure hard but it s got to be done. You know they would put it to some little melody of their own or cmrrpose it as they went along. A lot of those things that they used to do wee just spur of the nmment things, The ideas came to them, that Is it. Usually the me fellow would set the pattern and the other two or three would join ir~and add to it.

Q: You don't rambr any of the lines or mything offhand, do you? offhand , no. Q: I am kind of interested in how they gat those h.tS loaded, A: In what way how they got them loaded?

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield James Ault 9

Q: What kind of freight was carried on and aff and how, where?

A: Well, I guess that would depend on the locality, I've seen along the Mississippi loads and loads of bales of cotton which was a big commodity and was sanething they handled plenty of. On the Ohio here the hats that would haul freight, it was almost anytkbq. Reight, period! In other words there would be harc-hi\mre, stoves, furniture. Q: mare did they get the stoves Em, up mound Imntan? A: There was quite a few stove manufacturers here in Chcinnati and they would ship out of here, maybe on the way up the river, if we had maybe two hundred stoves, weld drop sane off at Porkmouth to the wholesaler up mere, drop same off at Huntington, and take some over the Charleston. They were usuaJ.ly, if not =fa- here, at least manufactured sanewhere in fndiana close by and hauled here by truck and then carried the rest of the way by boat because it was cheapw transportation. I renmker the Greene Line us& to have them, on the old Chris and Tam Greene, they used to have the contract to haul all the new Fords and Chevs to ---up the river towns. So we would stop dropping them off anywhere, usually they OOULd get, I don't remahr the actual count, maybe as him as twenty cars. They'd find places for them on that both deck and they would dmp them off at Portsmouth. They drop some off at Ironton, and same at ~unt-n. There for about three or four years they were mkhq a big deal on hauling those. They weren't be* driven up to those places; they were hauled up on the boat.

Q: Guess the roads were too bad at that th, maybe? A: That could be.

Q: They just drove them off the boats onto the W boats up there,

A: That Is right. Then whoarer the dealer was that they were assigned to, he would cmne dmand have people drive them on up fm there. But I don't Maw where the Fords cme fmm here; the Chws were assembled here even then. The Fords mst have been assanbled smmhere close by. Because we used to hauL Fords aud Chevs. Otherwise the freight consisted of, oh I said and such as that. A lot of those up the river towns used to get their wholesale grocwies frmn these big wholesale grocelry houses in Cinchti, We used to carry a lot of crates and cartons of wholesale grmaies, cereals, canned goods and things of that m. Of course there was a lot of times, at sane of these &l landings where the bat wmldn't ordinarily ever make a stop unless it was a scheduled thing, the farmer maybe had called in admade ~~tsfor the boat to stop there at the landing and pull up to this landing on the Ohio and put on same caws or sorne pigs or sanething and brjng it on dmta the market here. In other words they were going to the stockyards here in Cincinnati and a lot of times those famters used to haul their cattle in, corning into Cincinnati. That would be like on the trip coming back dawn.

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield Q: I've been told that the rousters used what they called a chain bar. Two long handles joined by chain and they would haul Ulings in those &in bars. Did you ever see them do that? A: No, I don't recall that. Usually, I mftsay it wasn't &me, but usually it was just strictly brawn in loading or unloading, 1 mean if it was a big item two or three rnen handled it, if it was a &l item, maybe weighing fifty to seventy-f ive put&, they would get it up on their shoulder and haul it away. Strictly picking it up and toting i-t so to speak. TRat's a tennthey used to use, tote. Q: That's right. These terms crop into the epe&. A: Is there a word like that in the tune Wid Man River.'' Tate that barge. Tate that bail. I don't remember the words but the word tote is in there. But that Is characteristic. I We heard that expression used a lot of times.

Q: IX you have any particular recollections that stand out in your mind Wtthat upper river? A: The upper Ohio? Q: Yes.

A: I went up numerous times as far as Point Pleasant. And of course up the Kmawha there, but beyond there, I've gone up to Marietta several times, Wheeling, but I don't mrmbr much about that because I didnitmake many trips up that far, maybe one or two.

Q: I foqet you'd probably be playing whm you were going up through there tm, wouldn't you?

A: A lot of tkwhen we were going fmone city to another during the daytime with nothing to do when we would be getting there, I would get my self a nice shady spat and watch the scenery* The Ohio had sane nice scenic spts. I would say the upper Ohio is mch more scenic than the lower part of the Ohio, I think.

Q: I have heard that. I have been through the upper myself. A: Of course speaking of scenic the Mississippi surely has ndhq to offer you. The lmer stretch of the Mississippi is just Emncwhere. Q: The old wide water?

A: Once k'~awhile you can see across, the Wp of the levee you can see tops of same houses of the -11 towns that you passed. Of course a lot of the, Natchez and su& as that is built up on a bluff, so is Memphis. Amy fmm the river and up so the water mttget to it. Strictly nothing scenic about the lmer Mississippi. I've never been up the upper Mississippi. They say that is very nice. But the uppw Ohio in fact I think is very beautiful. Never get tM of looking at it.

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield James Ault 11

Q: I have nwwmade it by water, bUt I would like to scrmeday. I drove up through there last year.

A: It1s just like other scenic spots. IBm thraugh the Srmkies, I 've been there several times. Still don't know if I would make a special trip or not but if I were close would probably drop myself around and go through it again. It's sanething you Like to see over and aver again. Spedking abut over and over again, A lot of these peaple, I would say a lot of old school teachers, used to make these amner trips on these boats. Lot of times they would be back the next year. Some of them would make it three or four tb. If they made a trip one time up the river, the next year they would make it dmon one of the other boats. Like Cincinnati to LouisviLle. A lat: of those people enjoyed it. It was quiet and restful. I'm speaking of the passengers. Quiet and restful and if you wanted to get a good rest that was sure one way to do it. I know us lrrusicians on those type trips, all we had to do outside of the playing at night, was lay around eat, get fat and lazy.

Q: One of the captains told me they would all get the pilothouse and the die of heart attacks trying rivefbnks.

A: (chuckles) They could do sanething like that.

Q: Well, fine, f think you have given me a nice tape, Mr. AulL And you'll be down there with the others. A: Like I say, I didn't have too much actual bat eprience on the Mississippi, that's a different thing, working steady afer there, I mean they may have played different sounding music than we did, Wzt my only contact was like I say was going dmthere ocx=asionally and playing a few nights at sane of those towns, We played the same like I say there that we did up here.

A: Yes, we did good business. That was usually all thought auk time. They hew ahead of thhow those things workd. Those tramp trips on the Queen. They were usually sponsored, each night would ke sponsored by the mican legion or a group of spollso~,something. The fireman or police groups in these different cities and tams were real great at sponsoring those; sometimes the police and the firmen would go together. Sa~etjmesit would be like an American mion group, somethles Veterans of Foreign Wars, smthes a civic group of scnne sort. But each night, it wasn't a haphazard thing, those people were selling tickets, like I'm speaking now about the Queen and excursion boats. Those pea)?le would be out weeb ahad of time selling tickets, because wer the guarante in the amount that the boat cost them, in other words they had to guarantee the cmrpany a certain amount, and over that they made sane money and the boat mde still smne extra momy aver that, but they had to get out and sell enough tickets to make scltnethhg for themselves. In other words they were trying to

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield build up their W, the police or fixemen thing, were try* to build up their retirement, or samething like that.

Q: You just dedme about scrll\ething, because we did that aut of high aAool. I had ny first date on the Queen and it was one of the most miserable nights I ever spent in my life. (&uckles)

A: Speaking of the Queen a lot of fraternities and sororities would sponsor a lot of those, I remmhr that tm. A lot of t* it would be saw big business. Sane big carpany that would sponsor sawthing. Q: Well guess the Avalon follclws pretty much that pattern even now. A: Yes, of cause, the fellow that is running that business, running the Avalon, he was publicity man for years with the Coney Island people. He always made the advance trips up d dawn the river and set these dates, found out who was going b sponsor that particular dance. He did that for years and years. Incidentally he was am old time rrmsician himself. He had a band amurrd town back in the 1920's. I am trying to thM of his name.

Q: His name was Meyer, I believe? A: Yes, Meyer, I'm trying to think of nicknam he had. Well, maybe, Woody Meyer? ? He had a band back in the 1920's around here. It wasn't a top flight band, but he did wark and then whm he got in this publicitq business he seemed to take to that. Like I say for fifteen maybe twenty years he was gobup there for the Queen. So he is probably follming up the same, has ken, sine he's =over the Avalon a mnnber of years ago, probably follmhg the same procedure as he used to do far the Queen. In other words contacting the same people. Only he covers- temitoxy. He'll probably go the upper Mississippi and he may go into the CLlmberland River and the Tennessee River, I don't know.

Q: They'll go anywhere on the Avalon. A: The only requirment on those bats that you will naturally if you have a business there. You always get men who have license that can take you on those rivers because if your regular men can't do it, you hire people wherever you are going that have license to mar that. Q: They are getting rarer and rarer, and older and older. A: Yes, most people they are breaking in now, scrme of the old-timers are going in, working the towboats.

Q: They don't ~~ with a license. A: Pilots still have to have licenses. They can't get. up in that house unless they do. Q: That's an odd thing, they don't need the kind of license a man would have needed if he was smpilot.

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield James Ault

A: Probably not but you still have to know your riva,

Q: Oh there is no question about that. A: Which is only one of many of the requirawnts. I can back, oh a lot of times we would hit of these trips in the spring when the water would be high, the river Wdbe high, and they'd have to haw conditions, in other words, hau high the water was, hm high bridges were, that they could calculate, muse a lot tims they would take top of, maybe the pilothouye off, the trirranings, the ornaments, luwer the stacks back to get under a orbin bridge, and they1d have it all worked out because they hew the heig-ht of the bridge, that was part of their business, they would know haw high the water was by the gwerrrment reports, so they figured hm m&t they would have to lower those stacks. Scrme of them were made to bad back and they would take sorrae of the ornaments off the tcQ of the pilothouse. I would stand up on the top deck sanetimes it would be like we were missing by abut one or two feet. But they hew they could do it. Q: I remaker once the Quem went uder the bridges here like that with the stacb back. I= quite a thrilling thing to be ttp there and watch that.

A: There was one thonce this was down the river, we were dmoh at least araund Paducah, I can't remmhr if we were go* there or caning fmthere, but we had to get to this next towh and the river was cahg up. So they figured they could beat the rise and get under this certain bridge they had to get under before they were going to be held there and not going to b able to get under. So they figured well we think we can do it if we get there qgick enough. That was a case of missing it just by about a foot but they can do a lot of calculations you how. Course they figured when they came back up a few weeks later the water condition would change. I don't remember anytime that we were ever ~~[[~letelystopped. But they got awfully close sometimes.

Q: Well fine, and I thank your for having taking the the out to make this tape.

End of Tape One

James Ault Memoir -- Archives, University of Illinois at Springfield