Da´Il E´Ireann

Vol. 588 Thursday, No. 4 1 July 2004

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DA´ IL E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Thursday, 1 July 2004.

Requests to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 31 ……………… 981 Order of Business ……………………………… 982 Sustainable Communities Bill 2004: First Stage …………………… 997 Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 (Prescribed Research and Development Activities) Regulations 2004: Referral to Select Committee ………………………… 997 Treaty of Amsterdam: Motion…………………………… 998 Equality Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Order for Report Stage …………………………… 998 Report and Final Stages …………………………… 998 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage ……………1024 Ceisteanna—Questions Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism ……………………… Priority Questions ……………………………1062 Other Questions ……………………………1071 Adjournment Debate Matters ……………………………1084 Barron Report: Statements ……………………………1084 Adjournment Debate Vandalism of School Property …………………………1122 Orthodontic Services ……………………………1124 Water and Sewerage Schemes …………………………1128 Industrial Accidents ……………………………1130 Questions: Written Answers ……………………………1133 981 982

DA´ IL E´ IREANN ral Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to inter- vene to prevent such an exorbitant increase in ———— energy costs.

Deárdaoin, 1 Iuíl 2004. Mr. Sargent: Iarraim faoi Bhuan Ordu´ 31 go Thursday, 1 July 2004. gcuirfear Daíl Eireann ar Athlo´ chun ceist phraínnneach don tı´r ar fad a fhreagairt agus a ———— shoileíriu´ ,se´ sin cathain a bhainfear amach sta´das oifigu´ il don Ghaeilge mar theanga oifigu´ il san Chuaigh an Leas-Cheann Comhairle i gceannas Aontas Eorpach agus uachtarańacht na hE´ ireann ar 10.30 a.m. ar son an Aontas Eorpach direach thart, agus ceń fath na´r iarr an Rialtas riamh ar an gCoimisiu´ n ———— Eorpach sta´das oifigu´ il a thabhairt don teanga naísiu´ nta, agus an phlean ata´ ag an Rialtas anois Paidir. sta´das oifigu´ il a bhaint amach. Prayer. Mr. Eamon Ryan: I seek the Adjournment of ———— the Daíl under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter of national importance, namely, to clear up Request to move Adjournment of Daíl under the confusion that now exists on the future of the Standing Order 31. proposed metro for Dublin given the conflicting statements we have from the Taoiseach who An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Before coming to seems to believe we cannot afford the project and the Order of Business, I propose to deal with a the Minister of Transport who seems to believe it number of notices under Standing Order 31. I is still on track. propose to call on the Deputies in the order in which they submitted their notices to my office. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Having considered the matters raised, they are not in order Mr. F. McGrath: I seek the Adjournment of the under Standing Order 31. Daíl under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter of national importance, namely, the decision by Order of Business. the Department of Education and Science not to grant the \5,000 necessary to fund a July pro- The Tańaiste: The Order of Business today gramme for 15 severely disabled pupils at Enable shall be as follows: No 17a, motion re Referral to Ireland, Sandymount and the urgent need to pro- Select committee of proposed approval by Daíl vide services for children with disabilities. E´ ireann of Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 (Prescribed Research and Development Dr. Cowley: I seek the Adjournment of the Activities) Regulations 2004; No. 19, motion re Daíl under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter proposed approval by Daíl E´ ireann for a Council of national importance, namely, the lack of sup- Directive on a specific procedure for admitting port for people and families suffering from third country nationals for purposes of scientific autism, the lack of rights based legislation, the research, back from committee; No. 28, Equality lack of non-means tested medical cards for spec- Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Order for Report, Report ific family members suffering from autism, the and Final Stages; No. 27, Residential Tenancies passing off of responsibility between the Depart- Bill 2003 — Report Stage (Resumed) and Final ment of Health and Children and the Department Stage; No. 29, statements on the Report of the of Education and Science in supplying services Committee for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for autistic children and the lack of occupational on the Barron Report. therapists, speech therapists and respite care for It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in sufferers of autism and their families. Standing Orders, that (1) the Daíl shall sit later Mr. Connolly: I seek the Adjournment of the than 4.45 p.m. tonight and business shall be inter- Daíl under Standing Order 31 to raise a matter rupted not later than 7 p.m; (2) Nos. 17a and 19 of national importance, namely, the unjustified shall be decided without debate; (3) Report and application by the ESB for an electricity price rise Final Stages of No. 28 shall be taken today and of up to 13% coming in the wake of ESB price the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously rises totalling 24% since 2000 resulting in a cumu- concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1 p.m lative increase of almost 40% in the past three by one question which shall be put from the years, the company’s facile pretext of growing Chair, and which shall with regard to amend- international oil prices which are actually falling ments include only those set down or accepted by after reaching record levels recently, the energy the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law regulator’s meek acceptance of such excuses prior Reform; (4) the proceedings on Report Stage to approving the ESB application, the disastrous (Resumed) and Final Stage of No. 27 shall, if not effect of such electricity increases on the competi- previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion tiveness of small businesses and to call on the at 3.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be Minister for Communications, Marine and Natu- put from the Chair, and which shall with regard 983 Order of 1 July 2004. Business 984

[The Tańaiste.] Yesterday a report commissioned by the Irish to amendments include only those set down or Congress of Trade Unions and SIPTU was accepted by the Minister for the Environment, received by every Deputy and Senator. That Heritage and Local Government; (5) the pro- report exposes the utter folly of the Govern- ceedings on No. 29 shall, if not previously con- ment’s determination to break up Aer Rianta. cluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. and The Government’s plan set out in the State Air- the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the ports Bill is not a plan but a wreckers charter. statements of the Minister for Justice, Equality That is what it amounts to. The public and the and Law Reform and of the main spokespersons workforce will be the real losers. Committee for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Stage of this Bill is to be taken at noon today and Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that the taking of Report and Final Stages is sched- order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; uled for next week. In light of the report from (ii) the statement of each other Member called SIPTU and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; will the Tańaiste withdraw this Bill and indicate (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) the Mini- clearly that the proposition within it will be aban- ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform shall doned by Government? Unless that is done very be called upon to make a statement in reply clearly and absolutely, we will oppose the Order which shall not exceed five minutes. of Business. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal Mr. R. Bruton: It was enough to make a cat for the late sitting agreed to? laugh to hear the Minister of State describe the committee’s attempt to have hearings as an Mr. Rabbitte: I regret that I must oppose this attempt to politicise the issue of decentralisation. proposal. I will also oppose each of the other four This is the man who brought decentralisation into proposals unless the Tańaiste can give an under- the political arena in a way that is almost unpre- taking to the House, following the outrageous cedented. misrepresentation on radio this morning by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, A Deputy: Talk of Parlon country. Deputy Parlon, that the Select Committee on Fin- ance and the Public Service will have the support Mr. R. Bruton: It was cowboy politics to which of the Government parties to scrutinise and we were treated. Decentralisation was introduced examine the proposals on decentralisation. in this House under cover of the budget. There Deputy Parlon told the nation this morning has been no strategic plan, human resource plan, that the proposal put to the committee would regional context or spatial plan context within have involved politics before the local and Euro- which this is being developed. When senior civil pean elections. However, the motion put to the servants, rightly, through their union, brought the committee was to allow for a two-day examin- matter to our attention, the Minister for Finance ation after the elections, sometime in June or accused them of manipulating the media to try to July. The Minister of State’s comment is a gross block the measure. This is a political project, misrepresentation of what happened. which has been driven through the Daíl without This is a major decision. Given that the scrutiny. The Tańaiste and those who back her on Government took up a position and put its the Government benches have contrived to Deputies through the division lobbies to oppose obstruct a sensible assessment by the Oireachtas the committee scrutinising, monitoring and exam- of these proposals. This approach of “act now and ining the proposals for decentralisation, given the think later” will damage the State. We will dam- extent of disquiet throughout the public service age our public service through the decentralis- about the damage being done to governance, the ation model. implications for civil servants and their families In respect of Aer Rianta, we are being asked and the need for a rational, voluntary application to trust that the Minister responsible will break of a sensible proposal on decentralisation in line up the company and then decide whether there with balanced regional development, and given was a reason to do so. That approach to politics the seriousness of this, I greatly regret that the Labour Party will call a division on each proposal and to Government is out of the Mad Hatter’s before the House this morning, unless the Tea Party. Tańaiste makes clear that such scrutiny by the The same type of approach was taken by the committee will be facilitated by the majority of Minister responsible when he said there was no Government members of that committee. overrun on the port tunnel works. It was to cost \220 million and when the cost came in at \715 CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I fully concur with million the Minister says there is no overrun. This Deputy Rabbitte’s point of contention. As a is not an acceptable way to do business. It is time member of the Committee on Finance and the we respected the House, the citizens of this State Public Service, I raise my objection on a separ- and the public service, and that we do business ate matter. under the scrutiny we should have in this House. 985 Order of 1 July 2004. Business 986

Mr. Sargent: We are dealing with the proposal mittee examining this matter. There was no on the late sitting of the Daíl. It appears the instruction from the Government to the commit- Government has heard the points made at the tee, to the best of my knowledge—— doors during the elections. If the Government is serious about allowing this issue to be debated Mr. Connaughton: Tom did not hear that. and, as Deputy Richard Bruton said, it is one the ´ Government brought into the public arena, it CaoimhghıńOCaolaín: The Whip applied it. should allow it to be debated in this House. It is (Interruptions). appropriate to oppose the late sitting in the hope ´ that the Tanaiste will come back, as she did on a The Tańaiste: That instruction certainly did not previous occasion, and inform us that she will come from the Government, I assure Deputy allow a debate in this House on decentralisation Rabbitte of that. It is a matter for the committee, and extend the time allocated with that in mind. and the committee should look at it. This is a matter that is being debated outside In regard to the other items, the Equality Bill, this House at length. It has an impact on people, the Residential Tenancies Bill and the Barron who are not getting an answer in the public ser- report, on which the House was anxious to have vice to what will happen when they volunteer to a discussion, they are important Bills which we remain where they are, as it is claimed they will want to get through before the summer recess. be able to do? The answer has not been forth- That is why it is necessary for the House to sit coming as to what will happen to them. It is until 7 p.m. this evening. appropriate that this issue is debated in the House, as is it is being debated widely throughout CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: What about the State the country. Airports Bill, the wreckers charter?

The Ta´naiste: Are we dealing with all the Mr. Rabbitte: Is that a commitment from the Order of Business items or with item No. 1, which Government as distinct from the Tom Parlon is 17a, given that many issues have been raised? country party?

Mr. Rabbitte: We are dealing with item No. 1. The Ta´naiste: I have just told the Deputy.

The Ta´naiste: In regard to decentralisation, I Question put: “That the proposal for the late said in this House — I think it was last week or sitting of the Da´il be agreed to.” perhaps the week before — that I favour the com-

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 60; Nı´l, 44.

Ta´

Ahern, Michael. Kitt, Tom. Ahern, Noel. McCreevy, Charlie. Brady, Johnny. McDaid, James. Brady, Martin. McDowell, Michael. Browne, John. McEllistrim, Thomas. Callanan, Joe. McGuinness, John. Carty, John. Martin, Michea´l. Collins, Michael. Moynihan, Donal. Cooper-Flynn, Beverley. Moynihan, Michael. Cregan, John. Nolan, M. J. Curran, John. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. de Valera, Sı´le. O´ Fearghaı´l, Seań. Dempsey, Noel. O’Connor, Charlie. Dempsey, Tony. O’Dea, Willie. Dennehy, John. O’Donnell, Liz. Devins, Jimmy. O’Donoghue, John. Ellis, John. O’Donovan, Denis. Fitzpatrick, Dermot. O’Keeffe, Batt. Fleming, Seań. O’Keeffe, Ned. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. O’Malley, Fiona. Glennon, Jim. O’Malley, Tim. Grealish, Noel. Parlon, Tom. Hanafin, Mary. Power, Peter. Harney, Mary. Power, Seań. Haughey, Seań. Sexton, Mae. Jacob, Joe. Smith, Brendan. Keaveney, Cecilia. Treacy, Noel. Kelleher, Billy. Wallace, Dan. Kelly, Peter. Walsh, Joe. Kirk, Seamus. Woods, Michael. 987 Order of 1 July 2004. Business 988

Nı´l

Boyle, Dan. McGrath, Paul. Breen, Pat. McHugh, Paddy. Broughan, Thomas P. Mitchell, Gay. Bruton, Richard. Mitchell, Olivia. Burton, Joan. Morgan, Arthur. Connaughton, Paul. Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda. Connolly, Paudge. Murphy, Gerard. Costello, Joe. Naughten, Denis. Crawford, Seymour. Neville, Dan. Cuffe, Ciarań. O´ Caolaín, Caoimhghıń. Deenihan, Jimmy. O’Shea, Brian. Durkan, Bernard J. Penrose, Willie. English, Damien. Perry, John. Ferris, Martin. Rabbitte, Pat. Gilmore, Eamon. Ring, Michael. Healy, Seamus. Ryan, Eamon. Higgins, Joe. Ryan, Seań. Howlin, Brendan. Sargent, Trevor. Lynch, Kathleen. Shortall, Ro´ isıń. McCormack, Padraic. Stagg, Emmet. McGinley, Dinny. Timmins, Billy. McGrath, Finian. Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Nı´l, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried. enue Commissioners were able to cost a number of other tax breaks for those investing in a num- An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Are the proposals ber of other areas, such as multi-storey car parks for dealing with Nos. 17a and 19 without debate and holiday homes. Costings are critically agreed? important. It is important to spell out what constitutes real research and development. I would like Mr. R. Bruton: I do not know if the regulations to have seen such detail. relating to the Taxes Consolidation Act have Have the recommendations of the Joint Com- been circulated. I have not seen them. It is mittee on Justice, Equality, Defence and strange that we are being asked to Women’s Rights on the proposal regarding third 11 o’clock approve the referral of the regulations to the select committee with- country nationals and the issue of scientific out having seen them. I am not profoundly research been circularised? I do not have a copy objecting but this is bad procedure. of the report from the committee on its deliberations. We are now being asked to adopt this Mr. Rabbitte: Is the Tańaiste now telling the proposition without debate and without sight of House that the Government parties will facilitate the committee’s deliberations. This is the examination of the decentralisation pro- unacceptable. gramme by the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, about which we spoke earlier? The Tańaiste: In 1997 the standard rate of cor- poration tax was 40% and we collected \1.8 The Tańaiste: With regard to Deputy Bruton’s billion. We are now collecting more than \5 query, this matter was discussed in the context billion, having reduced the rate to 12.5%. Capital of the Finance Bill. We do have a copy of the gains tax was 40% in 1997 and—— regulations for him. It is to provide for a tax credit for research and development. Mr. J. Higgins: That is completely misleading. In reply to Deputy Rabbitte’s question, I have There has been an increase in economic activity. spoken to the chairman of the joint committee This is a myth. and he tells me he will be delighted to facilitate an early discussion of the said matter. The Tańaiste: Deputy Higgins should listen to ´ the facts. Capital gains tax was 40% and we col- CaoimhghıńOCaolaín: I object to the taking lected \100 million in 1997. By 2001 the take had of Nos. 17a and 19 without debate. While sup- gone up to \800 million. There are the figures. portive of research and development, we have not been circularised with the details. It is claimed on CaoimhghınO´ Caolain: The Tańaiste should the Order Paper that these were laid before the ´ ´ House yesterday but I have not received a copy. answer the question. There are no costings or indications of cost. We know already from the Minister for Finance that The Tańaiste: This is sensible innovative policy neither the Department of Finance nor the Rev- that delivers economic success. 989 Order of 1 July 2004. Business 990

Mr. J. Higgins: This is voodoo economics. It is wide of the mark. It is important that we not pass PD nonsense. a Bill by using a guillotine, which will result in significant hardship for many people. CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I know the Tańaiste is in the Taoiseach’s chair this morning. Does that An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The question oblige her never to answer a question? is——

The Tańaiste: The Deputy should look at the CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: A Leas-Cheann facts. Comhairle——

Question, “That the proposal for dealing with An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I thought the Nos. 17a and 19 be agreed to”, put and declared Deputy had already spoken. carried. CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: No, I have not. This is An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal No. 27. for dealing with No. 28 agreed? An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy said CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: We are being asked to he was objecting to it. accept a guillotine on this Bill. The lead-in to the summer recess is dotted with guillotine after CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I wish to object to it. I guillotine on Second, Report and Final Stages of am doing so now. That was the Equality Bill. We several Bills. This is unacceptable. On principle, are now dealing with the Residential Tenancies I object to the passage of the Equality Bill 2004 Bill. I object to the guillotine being applied. I par- by means of guillotining the debate on Report ticipated briefly in the course of the debate on and Final Stages. I ask the Tańaiste to revisit Report and Final Stages last evening. The that proposition. remaining amendments may be addressed within the timeframe provided but the issue is the prin- The Tańaiste: No, it is important that we get ciple of the application of the guillotine. The the equality legislation through. debate should be left open to accommodate full participation. That is the issue. It may be that, CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: Absolutely. It is also with the co-operation of the House, the Bill will very important that it is debated properly. be proceeded with expeditiously but the imposition of the guillotine is objectionable in principle. Mr. J. Higgins: If we reduce equality we may get more equality. The Tańaiste: Deputy O´ Caolaín is being very difficult this morning. I suspect he did not take Question, “That the proposal for dealing with his Weetabix before he came in. No. 28 be agreed to”, put and declared carried. CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I had an extra bowl. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal for dealing with No. 27 agreed? The Tańaiste: In an ideal world we would pre- fer not to have to use guillotines but it is the only CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: It is not agreed. effective way for the Government to get its legislative programme through. Mr. Gilmore: I am among those Members who are most anxious to see this Bill enacted. I had Mr. Neville: Why? been asking for it for four years before the Government published it, I asked for it to be Mr. J. Higgins: Some of the Ministers should brought to Second Stage and I have been asking take more Weetabix. for the Report Stage debate since last February when Committee Stage was concluded. The The Tańaiste: Deputy Higgins should take guillotine is being applied because the Govern- more porridge. ment delayed in bringing the Bill to the House for Report Stage. The Labour Party opposes the Question, “That the proposal for dealing with use of the guillotine on this Bill on principle. It is No. 27 be agreed to”, put and declared carried. being used because of the Government’s delay in bringing the Bill to Report Stage. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal for dealing with No. 29 agreed? Mr. Sargent: This Bill is becoming more important as the years go by and more and more Mr. Boyle: I wish to make a small point. people depend on rented accommodation. I ask the Government to think long and hard about the An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the Deputy guillotine. It does not allow enough debate to get objecting to the proposal? to the bottom of the question of when a fair rent is being charged. The Government seems to equ- Mr. Boyle: I would like to point out a res- ate market rent with fair rent and that can be ervation. 991 Order of 1 July 2004. Business 992

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy may vices from Shannon Airport to Europe in particu- only speak if he is objecting to the proposal. lar, no plan will save it because it faces serious difficulties. Will the Deputy remind me of his Mr. Boyle: I am objecting to it in principle. The last question? two and a quarter hours which have been put aside allows only one speaking slot for the Tech- Mr. R. Bruton: The Government recently indi- nical Group. The time slots will finish before a cated it would introduce another round of bench- second Technical Group speaker will be reached. marking between 2005 and 2007. The ESRI has I ask that a second slot be accommodated. indicated there are serious question marks about the way in which this was conducted on the last The Ta´naiste: Is the Deputy talking about the occasion. It is appropriate that the House would debate on the Barron report? scrutinise this before the Government takes this course again. Mr. Boyle: Yes. The Tanaiste: That would be a good idea The Ta´naiste: The House would have to sit ´ beyond 7 p.m. if that were to be case, but if con- before the benchmarking group is put together. tributions are short there may be time for an The Joint Committee on Finance and the Public additional speaker. The opening slot is 15 Service, of which the Deputy is a member, might minutes in length. That is a fair amount of time. have an input into that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the proposal Mr. Howlin: The Tańaiste is aware of the publi- for dealing with No. 29 agreed? Agreed. cation this morning of the non-life profits of insurance companies of \747 million, with profits Mr. R. Bruton: Would the Tańaiste confirm the of \385 million in the area of motor insurance. position on the requests by the Public Offices These profits come before the operation of the Commission to have additional powers to investi- PIAB legislation and the legislation from the gate the tax affairs of Deputies? It was reported Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in today’s newspapers that the Government has that is going through the Houses. We can expect decided not to accede to a request for additional the profit margins, therefore, to be considerably powers. higher this year. What legislative proposals will It is clear that Fianna Faíl backbenchers would the Tańaiste bring before the House as a matter like to see the rationale of the State Airports Bill of urgency to ensure such enormous profits are published before we finalise it. Will the Govern- distributed properly to premium holders so that ment agree to that sensible approach on behalf of young motorists in particular can have affordable these Fianna Faíl backbenchers to ensure this Bill motor insurance to allow them to get to work and is based on a sensible foundation? to allow rural areas to continue to function? On the Government’s recent commitment to introduce another round of benchmarking, will The Tańaiste: As the Deputy is aware, motor this be the subject of discussion in the House or insurance premiums have fallen by an average of will the Government again proceed without any 22%. The most effective way of driving them scrutiny or assessment of the measure? down further, given that the Civil Liability and Courts Bill will be enacted before the recess and The Tańaiste: On the request from the Public will have a major impact, is through greater com- Offices Commission, the first time I became petition in the market. A number of players have aware of this was when I read about it in my applied to IFSRA for a licence. Even if I wanted newspaper this morning so I am not aware of the to, I am prohibited under EU Single Market nature of the request. There was certainly no dis- legislation from introducing any price control in cussion of it at Government level. insurance. The rationale behind the State Airports Bill is to introduce competition. We should look at Mr. Howlin: What about competition? some of the remarkable things that have been done in the new EU member states in the last The Tanaiste: More players have applied to 12 years. They are an example of the vigorous ´ come into the market. Next month I will meet introduction of competition to ensure growth in their economies. We seem to face significant with some interested parties in London. resistance here every time—— Mr. Stagg: Competition must not be working Mr. R. Bruton: Did they have a strategic plan very well. The penalty points have not helped to before they introduced competition or did they lower premiums either. just proceed blindly? The Tańaiste: It is working, prices are coming The Tańaiste: The plan is to attract more down. There has been a fall of 22% in one year people to travel through our airports, particularly and we have not yet completed legislative reform. Shannon. We can have all the plans in the world There will be further substantial decreases in the but if we do not have more passengers and ser- next 12 months. 993 Order of 1 July 2004. Business 994

Mr. Sargent: I do not know if the Tańaiste derived from them. Are there any plans for legis- heard the report on “Tonight with Vincent lation dealing with investment funds or any other Browne” last night on people entering the prison area regarding employment so we can discuss system as alcoholics and leaving it as drug addicts. how the county with the longest border with Obviously, greater attention should be paid to the Northern Ireland has not had a single job created reform of the service but no publication date has as a result of the peace initiative? been given for the Prison Service Bill. Is there any suggestion of a publication date? The Tańaiste: It is not possible to say when the On the State Airports Bill, what hold does the education legislation will be before the House. Tańaiste have over Fianna Faíl backbenchers that On employment, every county in Ireland has sub- allows them to oppose it when they are speaking stantially more people working according to the in the House and then to vote for it? Does she 2002 census as opposed to the 1996 census. There have a particular trick? are more than 1,000 foreign workers on work permits working in County Monaghan. The Deputy Mr. Durkan: Ventriloquism. must be talking about agency-led activity because there are many people at work in Monaghan. The Tańaiste: I did not listen to “Tonight with Vincent Browne” last night and I do not think we Mr. Stagg: At the start of this session, the should take our policies from any journalist, no Government promised to publish 19 Bills. To matter how good he might be. I presume the pro- date, it has published six of them. What are the gramme was about conditions in prisons which I expected publication dates of the following Bills: am not sure will be affected by the legislation the land Bill; the Abbotstown sports centre auth- which is designed to put the Prison Service on an ority Bill, an interesting one; the maritime safety independent, statutory footing. Bill; the education and science Bill; the employ- On the State Airports Bill, we have a pro- ment permits Bill; the building societies Bill; the gramme for Government. On three occasions the Civil Service regulation (amendment) Bill; the Government has endorsed the commitment in the health and social care professionals Bill; the programme and we are implementing it. criminal justice Bill; the disability Bill;——

Mr. Rabbitte: Will the Tańaiste clarify the Mr. G. Mitchell: The restaurant bill. remarks made by the Taoiseach yesterday that Mr. Stagg: ——the prisons Bill; the Comhairle the Government has decided against the metro (amendment) Bill; and the driver testing and and the remarks made by the Minister for Trans- standards authority Bill? We were promised that port that he intends to go ahead with it? We are all of these Bills would be published during this now deporting 300 or 400 workers who have session. However, the only Bills published are six acquired valuable skills and, despite the fact that other Bills which were not on the list I have read we need further rail track and infrastructure, we out. When will the Bills on that list be published? are sending them back from whence they came. Routes like the Kildare service desperately need Mr. Rabbitte: I suggest that “soon” is the best additional railway track. What is the Govern- answer. ment’s policy and is legislation being introduced? The Tańaiste: The Deputy will be happy to The Tańaiste: The Minister for Transport hear that this morning I finalised some amend- intends to bring proposals on a metro to Cabinet ments to the employment permits Bill. It will be soon, probably after August. The views of the published in September. More drafting is awaited Taoiseach and the Minister are compatible. The from the office of the Attorney General. I assure Taoiseach was talking about the grand plan for the Deputies opposite that they will all like the the metro which cannot happen quickly for logis- Bill, particularly Deputy Howlin. I have taken on tical and financial reasons. The Minister for board many of his suggestions. Eleven Bills were Transport’s proposal is to start on a metro for published and advised by our very efficient Whip. the greater Dublin area but that has not yet been There are five other Bills. agreed by the Government and no funding has been identified for it. Mr. Stagg: Which September? There are only six on the list. Mr. Crawford: It was announced this morning that assets will be counted as income for the self- The Tańaiste: The comhairle and disability employed applying for education grants. When Bills will both be published together very shortly. will the Higher Education Authority The building societies Bill has been cleared by (amendment) Bill be introduced so we can dis- the Government and I believe it will be published cuss this issue? shortly. I am sure the Deputies opposite have all I appreciate the Tańaiste has made it clear she the answers. I dealt with the prison services Bill would like to get away from the employment and the House knows the position on the investment area of her portfolio. When one looks Abbotstown Bill. at the figures for job creation in Monaghan in the last seven years, there is not much joy to be Mr. Rabbitte: Do we? 995 Order of 1 July 2004. Business 996

The Ta´naiste: Yes. Obviously the existing Ms Lynch: On the one hand she says we should infrastructure needs to be put on a proper foot- pay less tax and on the other she says we will ing. That Bill is due this session, but post the have to pay by stealth tax—— summer. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy Mr. Rabbitte: We can all go for a swim. should use other ways of raising that matter.

Mr. McCormack: When will the Road Traffic Ms Lynch: ——and the stealth tax is going back Bill, as published, come before the Daíl? When into the coffers of the Government. will the Minister for Education and Science bring before the Daíl the additional lists of schools to An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: On the energy be included in the Residential Institutions Bill, which is promised legislation. Redress Act 2002? This has been promised a long time. I put down parliamentary questions on this subject early this year and I was assured the list The Tańaiste: The promised legislation will be of additional schools would be brought before the published later this year. As the Deputy is well House before the summer recess. Many people aware, it does not affect that about which she is who were abused are waiting to have their cases talking. On the question of tax, the average heard because the schools in question are not on industrial worker is taking home 80% more than the list. was the case seven years ago. Even discounting what the Deputy calls stealth taxes, workers are The Tańaiste: The Road Traffic Bill will be still 60% better off. Lower taxes is but one of the dealt with in the autumn session. The other mat- factors that helped our economic success. Edu- ter is on the Cabinet agenda and was discussed cation is another factor and there are many other last week. One slight change is required to be factors. It is a good Government of which the made. It will probably be finalised next week. Deputy’s party was once a member. Subject to correction, I did not realise it was the subject of legislation; I thought it could be done Ms Lynch: Regardless of what are they taking by regulation. If I am mistaken, I apologise. home, what they have to pay out afterwards is the difficulty. Mr. McCormack: It is by regulation. Mr. Durkan: Since the legislative programme The Tańaiste: I understand it will be finalised was published at the end of April, beginning of next week, certainly within the next fortnight. May, a list of approximately ten Bills awaiting Committee Stage have been joined by a number Mr. McCormack: There is only one week left. of others in the meantime. What plans does the The Tańaiste: I do not think it requires Daíl Government have to progress them? Top of the approval. list is the Bill with musical connotations and one which might resonate with the Government par- Ms Lynch: In light of the Tańaiste’s answers ties after the people have made the decision in to earlier questions about the fact that her stated the local elections, the whistleblowers’ Bill. I will policy is that people would pay less tax and the not list all the other Bills on the list but I can Progressive Democrats taxation policy is the if required. cause of all our joy and the reason the economy is in such a boom will she say how she can stand The Tańaiste: The sooner we can all move on over a further price increase being applied for by in the House today, the sooner some of the legis- the ESB? lation will go through. They are all matters for the different committees, as the Deputy is aware. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy should ask a question on promised legislation. Mr. Durkan: The Tańaiste should make provision for them. Ms Lynch: It is the energy Bill. Mr. Costello: I refer to the defamation Bill Mr. McCormack: The lack of energy Bill. which was promised last year and the year before. It is listed in the joint manifesto. The Minister Mr. Howlin: The lethargy Bill. for Justice, Equality and Law Reform seems to Ms Lynch: If the ESB had not had to pay \100 change his mind about the press council and million to the Exchequer in the past two years whether it should be on a statutory basis or other- and had been allowed keep this money, then it wise at every conference he attends. When is the would not now be looking for a further increase. defamation Bill due? There have been reports How can the Tańaiste stand over that? from the Law Reform Commission and from the newspaper industry on the matter. There are con- An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy ferences every second week on the subject. Is it should ask a question on proposed legislation. proposed to establish a statutory press council? 997 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 998

The Tańaiste: The legislation is due early next Enterprise and Small Business, in accord- year. It is important legislation to which we ance with paragraph (1) of the Orders of should all give serious consideration. Reference of that committee, which, not later than 7 July, 2004, shall send a message Ms Lynch: We would love to consider it. to the Daíl in the manner prescribed in Standing Order 85, and Standing Order 84(2) The Tańaiste: It will even apply in Cork. shall accordingly apply.

Aengus O´ Snodaigh: The railway safety Bill Question put and agreed to. seems to be stalled in the House for quite a number of years and does not seem to be making any progress. What is the reason for the delay in pro- Treaty of Amsterdam: Motion. gressing this Bill? It is an important Bill. Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Ms Hanafin): I move: The Tańaiste: I am delighted to know the Deputy is interested in railway safety. I am That Daíl E´ ireann approves the exercise by informed the Bill has been ordered for Report the State of the option, provided by Article 3 Stage. of the fourth Protocol set out in the Treaty of Amsterdam, to notify the President of the Council that it wishes to take part in the adop- Sustainable Communities Bill 2004: First Stage. tion and application of the following proposed Mr. Sargent: I move: measure: That leave be granted to introduce a Bill a proposal for a Council Directive on a spec- entitled an Act to require the drawing up and ific procedure for admitting third-country implementation of a strategy to promote sus- nationals for purposes of scientific research tainability among local communities; to make a copy of which proposed measure was laid provision for the inclusion of targets and indi- before Daíl E´ ireann on 6 May, 2004.” cators in the strategy; to make provision for councils to implement the strategy in their area; to make provision in respect of the powers of Question put and agreed to. electors in relation to the implementation of the strategy; and for connected purposes. Equality Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Order for Report Stage. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is the Bill Minister of State at the Department of Justice, opposed? Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O’Dea): I move: “That Report Stage be taken now.” Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Ms Hanafin): No. Question put and agreed to.

Question put and agreed to. Equality Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Report and Final An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Since this is a Stages. Private Members’ Bill, Second Stage must, under An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Amendment No. Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members’ 1 has been ruled out of order. time. Amendment No. 1 not moved. Mr. Sargent: I move: “That the Bill be taken in Private Members’ time.” Mr. P. McGrath: I move amendment No. 2: In page 6, lines 43 and 44, to delete all words Question put and agreed to. from and including “, but” in line 43 down to and including “employed” in line 44 and in Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 (Prescribed page 7, lines 1 to 4, to delete all words from and Research and Development Activities) including “in” in line 1 down to and including Regulations 2004: Referral to Select Committee. “persons” in line 4. Minister of State at the Department of the This amendment was moved on Committee Taoiseach (Ms Hanafin): I move: Stage. It refers to those whom persons can employ. It revolves around the tricky question of That the proposal that Da´il E´ ireann approve who one can employ in one’s home. The Minister the following Regulations in draft:— of State will disagree but the legislation places Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 (Prescribed restrictions on those who can be employed in the Research and Development Activities) home. As we all know, the greatest abuse of Regulations 2004,copies of which were laid employees probably involves domestic servants in draft before Da´il E´ ireann on 30 June, and those working in family homes, such as au 2004, be referred to the Select Committee on pairs and foreign nationals. We need to ensure, 999 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1000

[Mr. P. McGrath.] no exemptions are countenanced with regard in as far as possible, that no restrictions apply to to employment. such employees and they are not excluded from I urge the Minister of State to adopt the amend- terms of employment. I hope the Minister of ment to bring the legislation into line with the State will accept the amendment, even at this late stage. directives we are trying to transpose.

Aengus O´ Snodaigh: As Deputy Paul McGrath Minister of State at the Department of Justice, stated, this is a simple but important amendment Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O’Dea): I reject to section 3 which amends section 2 of the the notion that the Bill in any way breaches the Employment Equality Act. It is intended to directives. All three directives recognise that ensure that employers cannot discriminate there may be difference in treatment based on a against domestic workers. Despite the changes genuine occupational requirement, which is pre- made in the Seanad, the Government provision cisely what we are dealing with here. The 1998 amending section 2 of the Employment Equality legislation provided for difference in treatment Act still includes a blanket provision enabling with regard to employment in the home. There employers to discriminate against prospective are a number of significant differences in the pro- employees applying for work in a person’s home posed legislation. This Bill considerably narrows for the provision of personal services. the exclusion and, as a result of an amendment I In practice, this change will enable employers accepted in the Seanad, the provision covers to reject job applicants because of their personal access to employment only. prejudices, which is not acceptable. Exemptions Representations have been made that people must be justified as rationally connected to the employed as domestics, particularly people from work or the service and be reasonably necessary. abroad, are treated appallingly in some private Respect for private and family life is not a justifi- households. That is not permissible under the cation for a blanket ban measure to enable this legislation as the exclusion relates only to access category of employers to engage in discriminat- to employment. ory practices. The Minister has pointed out in Nobody could logically argue that in terms of other contexts that he needs to plug legislative providing services of a personal nature, as are loopholes. In the case of our equality laws, an clearly and widely defined in the legislation, we increasing number of loopholes are emerging. should introduce legislation effectively to compel This legislation, if passed, will allow people to dis- people to act against what everybody knows to criminate legally. be their best interests. Let us take the example of No exemptions similar to those the Minister an elderly woman seeking to employ somebody proposes in the text of the Bill appear in the for personal services, including health care. If, for directives to which we are trying to give effect in obvious reasons, she wanted to employ a female law, and no precedent in this area of jurispru- but was compelled by law to give equal consider- dence has been set by the European Court of Jus- ation to a male to do the job or allow any male tice or the European Court of Human Rights. who wanted to apply for the job to take a case The Human Rights Commission made a point on for discrimination against the potential employer, this aspect of the legislation stating: I would become the most ridiculous figure in Clause 3 of the Bill proposes to amend the politics. existing exemption of domestic employment Following the results of the recent local and from the application of the Employment European elections, many independent commen- Equality Act 1998 by excluding from the pro- tators opined that one of the problems was a view tections under the recruitment of “persons that individual Ministers were interfering too employed in another person’s home for the much in personal lives, for example, by introduc- provision of personal services for persons residing a smoking ban, a penalty points system and ing in that home where the services affect the an obligation to carry a driver’s licence. If I were private or personal life of those persons”. to introduce legislation which impinges on the However the Bill does now provide for protec- family home and forces an elderly woman in the tion for domestic workers against discrimi- circumstances described to give equal consider- nation within employment. ation to a male, thus allowing any male to bring Neither the Race Directive nor the Frame- a successful action against her on the basis that work Employment Directive permits exemp- she discriminated against him, I can imagine what tions to the application of the binding elements view the media would take when the matter came of the Directives in relation to employment in to a head. We would be laughed off the stage. a private household. [The proposal is, there- The amendment proposes the deletion from fore, in breach of the directives] The references the definition of “employee” for the purposes of in the non-binding recitals to the Directives to the Act of 1998 of the exclusion in respect of per- respect for private and family life relate only to sons employed in another person’s home to pro- the provision of goods and services and not to vide personal services to persons living in that the area of employment. In other words, while home where they affect private or family life. The limited exemptions may be justified in the pro- term “personal services” is defined in the Bill in vision of goods and services, it is explicit that the following terms: 1001 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1002

‘personal services’, in relation to such ser- is correct because he fears being made a figure vices provided in a person’s home, includes but of fun. is not limited to services that are in the nature I will stand up for what is right. The amend- of services in loco parentis or involve caring for ment relates to employment rights. When legis- those residing in the home. lation is amended it should be ensured the best This exclusion replaces much more broadly-based course is taken, which is to make sure the two exclusions in the Employment Equality Act and directives that are being transposed fully into strikes a balance between the equal rights of per- Irish law and all their provisions are fully adhered sons to private and family life and the equal treat- to. Respect for private and family life is not a ment of employees. On Committee Stage in the justification for a blanket ban. The Minister of Seanad, I introduced an amendment to the pro- State outlined one example but there are many vision, which further qualified the exclusion to other examples of potential discrimination based clarify, in case anybody was in doubt, that it on the various grounds. We are tying to ensure applies only in so far as access to employment there will be no discrimination in future and that is concerned. This exclusion, as amended, is very is why the amendment has been tabled. narrow and clearly meets the rigorous standards set down in all three of the directives, which allow Mr. O’Dea: I do not want to be misrep- for difference of treatment based on a genuine resented. I did not say I was refusing the amend- occupational requirement. ment because I was afraid of what the media The clearest example I can give, as already would say. Having made the case against the mentioned, of access to a job which could be amendment, I mentioned incidentally that the restricted on the basis of this exclusion is the case media would make fun of us if it was accepted of employment of a carer to look after an elderly because it is so bloody ridiculous. On Committee woman in her home. It would be inconceivable Stage Deputy Moynihan-Cronin referred to that a job of this nature would be open to all com- another amendment as political correctness gone ers regardless of their gender and the wishes of mad. For instance, an elderly woman who wants the potential employer. Having reconsidered the somebody to care for her will advertise the job. matter, as I promised I would on Committee An 18 year old body builder could take a success- Stage, I cannot accept the amendment. ful action against her for discrimination because he was not considered for the position. That is Mr. P. McGrath: While none of us would have political correctness gone mad. difficulty accepting the case the Minister of State It is wrong to state there is blanket ban. The set forth regarding an elderly person who may exclusion has been considerably narrowed since require a personal carer, it is my contention that the 1998 legislation and it was further narrowed the definition in the legislation does not restrict as a result of the debate in the Seanad. It is con- it to the terms of that specific example. The fined to cases involving personal services. I take definition of personal services the Minister of Deputy Paul McGrath’s point but the difficulty is State cited states they “include” but are “not lim- that if I accept the amendment I will open the ited to” services that are in the nature of services door for cases such as that I outlined. There may in loco parentis. In other words, personal services be a case for distinguishing between caring ser- can cover basic services provided by domestics vices and a broader category of services but the and au pairs.Anau pair provides a service in loco definition as drafted is better. parentis and his or her main function is to look We cannot provide in legislation for every after children. Under the legislation there will be scenario imaginable, otherwise we would write restrictions on who can apply for such positions legislation forever and no Bill would be passed. and, therefore, the legislation is incomplete, We have struck the correct balance. The which I why I tabled the amendment. exclusion has been considerably narrowed by None of us have difficulty with the cases out- amending the 1998 Act. It has been further nar- lined by the Minister of State but the legislation rowed to cover only access to employment. “Per- is not restricted to such cases. That is where lies sonal services” is defined clearly and, at the end the difficulty. The definition is wider than the of the day, legislation cannot cover potential Minister of State acknowledges, and if it were scenario and equality officers will be called on to restricted to the examples outlined by him none adjudicate on personal services cases. I have of us would have a difficulty. every confidence in the equality officers to make the right decisions. Their record to date suggests Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I support Deputy Paul they have been responsible in their interpretation McGrath and disagree with the Minister of State. of the 1998 and 2000 Acts. On the Order of Business, the Ta´naiste said the Government does not make legislation at the Amendment put and declared lost. behest of the media and we should not depend on the media. The Minister of State thinks Oppo- Amendment Nos. 3 and 4 not moved. sition Members or himself will be figures of fun in the media if we pass this legislation and it is a Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin: I move amendment sad day if he is not willing to proceed with what No. 5: 1003 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1004

[Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin.] teacher and it is a shame for the profession to lose In page 9, to delete lines 12 to 17 and substi- that kind of experience. I know other legislative tute the following: measures are changing those ages, but that does not change the compulsory nature of retirement. “(c) Subject to such exceptions and con- It is just shifting the goalposts in terms of age. ditions as may be prescribed, it shall not be On Committee Stage Deputy Moynihan- lawful for an employer to require an Cronin asked the Minister of State to look at this employee compulsorily to retire from his or again, but have we gone past the point of no her employment on reaching a particular age return? Is he now unable to re-examine this or if on reaching that age the employee is able will he be magnanimous and accept the amend- and willing to continue in employment.”. ment, making it easier to change this in the We had a lengthy discussion on Committee Stage future? There is a fair case for this amendment but, for the sake of the elderly, I tabled the because experience carries much weight. The amendment again. While I am not in favour of Minister of State tabled an amendment on Com- the Government going down the American route mittee Stage which placed a great deal of empha- in general, it should do so on this issue. The US sis on experience and this amendment is in keep- has an anti-ageism law and a similar law should ing with the concept of experienced people being be introduced in Ireland. If one is aged over 66, competent to do a job. one is not necessarily finished. Many people work into their 80s and make a positive contribution. Mr. O’Dea: We discussed this at some length It should not be prescribed in law that people on Committee Stage. There are two types of must leave employment upon reaching retire- employee in the country — those employed in the ment age. public sector and those employed in the private I went through the case for the amendment on sector. The legislation which has just been passed Committee Stage and I told the Minister of State deals with the situation in the public sector and I would reconsider it. However, the provision is effectively removes the compulsory retirement unfair and we will regret it because the elderly age for those entering the public sector after a have a great deal to contribute to society. The certain date. Government will seek to amend this legislation As for the private sector, I do not disagree with again in the near future. the logic of anything Deputies Moynihan-Cronin and Paul McGrath have said about the value of Mr. P. McGrath: I support the amendment. experience. Just because someone has passed a The State went through a phase when retirement certain age, he or she is no less able to do his or ages were prescribed for various professions but her job than he or she was the day before reach- that was amended in legislation relating to the ing that age. I accept that logic. However, a public service, which was passed by the change of this magnitude would have widespread Oireachtas recently. The retirement age for socio-economic implications and I could not take gardaı´, psychiatric nurses, teachers and so on has the responsibility for introducing that change in been raised. Deputy Moynihan-Cronin is seeking this Bill. I do not have the authority of the to abolish the retirement age provisions. Government to do that. There is a great deal of merit in the amend- It should be borne in mind in the context of the ment. For example, gardaı´ must compulsorily general debate that if one removes the compul- retire at 57 years. Gardaı´ can retire on full pen- sory retirement age and it then becomes the prac- sions after serving 30 years and this means many tice for people to work beyond what was the com- can retire at between 50 and 52 years. A number pulsory retirement age, there will still be many of gardaı´ remain in the force despite meeting the people who will want to avail of their right to 30 year requirement and they do an excellent job. retire at 65. People think it is just a matter of a However, when they reach 57 years, they are for- person either retiring or not retiring at 65, but if ced to retire. They still have a great deal to offer we have a situation where people generally work and they have tremendous experience. past 65 and are expected to do so by their We should consider this issue carefully. One employers, then life would not be quite the same can send a group of young gardaı´ to do a job for those who want to retire at 65. which requires physical fitness but a mature garda Section 34(4) of the Employment Equality Act accompanying them could be much more ben- 1998 provided that: “Without prejudice to subsec- eficial in completing a job satisfactorily than all tion (3), it shall not constitute discrimination on the young gardaı´ put together. There is a role for the age ground to fix different ages for the retire- people who are senior in their positions and, if ment (whether voluntarily or compulsorily) of they are able to work, they should be given that employees or any class or description of opportunity. Retirement should not be forced employees.” Accepting this amendment would upon them. require the deletion of section 34(4) and, while Teachers are also forced to retire at a given the framework employment directive does not age. I know someone who retired yesterday who require it, the question of removing section 34(4) is full of life and would love to continue teaching, was raised with the social partners and relevant but he was forced to give up his job because he Departments. While recognising that the labour had reached a certain age. He is an excellent force is getting older and that the participation of 1005 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1006 older workers should be facilitated, a consensus way to ensure that those with disabilities are emerged in consultations that this issue goes employed and we must make it difficult for some- beyond employment equality policy and has one not to employ such people if they are able to broad socio-economic and industrial relations do the job. In the legislation the Minister of State implications. uses the phrase “impose a disproportionate bur- I remind Deputies that in 2000 and 2001, the den on the employer”. What is a disproportionate Equality Authority convened and chaired an burden on an employer? If someone employs two advisory committee charged with examining the people, then a relatively small expenditure can be issue of ageism and putting forward an equality a major burden, while a proportionately higher agenda aimed at implementing equality for older figure would be a burden on the employer of ten people. This committee was composed of older people. Obviously the figure is higher again for a people’s organisations and the social partners. It multinational company or a State employer. examined in some detail a range of issues involv- The emphasis should be on making it possible ing older people in work, including retirement, for those with disabilities to be employed if that and it recommended the removal of the upper is at all possible. Instead of the term “impose a age limit of 65 from the Employment Equality disproportionate burden” we should use “grossly Act 1998, which this Bill does. The committee unreasonable”. That is playing with words but it made no recommendation on compulsory retire- conveys a much stronger message to the ment ages other than to acknowledge that the employer, who must make a case for not right to retire at the age of 65 or earlier is a hard- employing a person with a disability rather than won entitlement in some categories of employ- someone else. The phrase “grossly unreasonable” ment and ought to be preserved. is much stronger than the wording in the legis- In both the public and private sectors compul- lation and conveys a different message to those sory retirement age is a feature of many types of with disabilities. employment, which has been set over time, and in many cases after negotiation and collective Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I propose amendment No. bargaining. In the case of private sector employ- 9 since amendment No. 7, which was related, has ment, the removal of existing arrangements and been ruled out of order. I strongly welcome the agreements on compulsory retirement ages is a change the Minister of State has matter first for discussion between the social part- 12 o’clock made to the original formulation of ners. As for public service employees, excluding this section in regard to determining those in commercial state bodies, the recently what constitutes a disproportionate burden in enacted Public Service Superannuation respect of the duties of employers to take (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 removes the measures to ensure access to employment for compulsory retirement ages for new entrants. I people with disabilities. The purpose of amend- cannot accept this amendment. ment No. 9 is to ensure the public sector and large employers play a leadership role in regard to Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin: I now know the access for disabled workers in accordance with reason the Minister of State will not accept this their greater means. Large employers and the amendment, namely, the widespread implications public service have greater means than small of it presumably mean that, if this provision were employers. No employer should be able to get accepted, it would cost companies money. I know away with inflating his or her cost calculations advisory committees and social partners advocate because they do not want the bother of adapting this and that but we are here to make legislation. their employment environment to ensure accessi- Those bodies are here to advise us and not to bility for disabled workers. make legislation. We are making a mistake in In pushing these amendments, I could quote this regard. from the Human Rights Commission, the Equality Coalition or even the Equality Auth- Question, “That the words proposed to be ority. Each has made reasonable representations deleted stand”, put and declared carried. in this regard which take into account article 19 Amendment declared lost. of EU directive 76/207 that provides that member states shall actively take into account the objec- Acting Chairman (Mr. McGinley): Amend- tive of equality between men and women when ments Nos. 6, 8 and 9 are related and will be formulating and implementing laws, regulations, taken together. administrative provisions, policies and activities in the areas referred to, that is, statutory duties. Mr. P. McGrath: I move amendment No. 6: We should go much further and that is why I recommend this amendment. In page 12, lines 35 and 36, to delete “impose a disproportionate burden” and substitute “be Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin: I support Deputy grossly unreasonable”. Paul McGrath’s amendment, which would send a We had a long debate on this provision on Com- stronger message to employers in regard to the mittee Stage and I do not propose to delay the employment of those with disabilities. The excuse House. We must be careful with the employment many employers use for not employing those with of people disabilities. We should go out of our disabilities is that there are cost implications. If 1007 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1008

[Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin.] The directive gives some guidelines as to how the small employers, in particular, have a difficulty term “disproportionate burden” will be defined with this, they should get some assistance. Private in particular cases, and I have carried that into Members’ Business this week concerned the dis- the legislation. There were a few other items in abled person’s grant from local authorities, the the legislation, to which Deputy O´ Snodaigh difficulties and the value that money provides for referred, which could enable the employer to people with disabilities. mount a defence and I have taken them out. I The Government should look at the situation have refined it in so far as I possibly can. In of small companies. I have no sympathy for large addition, there are positive obligations on the companies, which only use cost implications as an employer in section 16 of the 1998 Act to take excuse. Many small companies find that the cost reasonable measures. implications of perhaps redesigning an office or In regard to the question of clarity, on Commit- otherwise prevents them from employing those tee Stage Deputy Paul McGrath suggested that with disabilities even though they might want to some independent standard setting, such as would do so. Some assistance should be made available be provided by a code of practice, should be con- for those small companies so that they are in a sidered to guide that which would constitute position to employ people with disabilities. appropriate measures required of employers. Under the Equality Authority strategic plan for Mr. O’Dea: In regard to what Deputy Paul 2003 to 2005, a key activity to be undertaken is McGrath said, a disproportionate burden will the development of a statutory code of practice vary depending on the circumstance of each case. on reasonable accommodation. This work is part We cannot write legislation to cover every of a broad programme by the authority in regard eventuality. We are dealing with the obligation we are putting on employers to provide facilities to reasonable accommodation for people with to enable them to employ people with disabilities disabilities, all designed to promote understand- or to enable people with disabilities to work in ing and awareness of the issues and how they that environment. apply in practice. Any law we pass must be subject to the Consti- In addition, the National Disability Authority tution. There is a written Constitution in this has statutory powers to draft codes of practice on country which governs the laws we make. The standards in services for people with disabilities. Supreme Court decides what aspects of that Con- I expect this area to be further developed in the stitution mean. The Supreme Court decided in context of the new measures proposed in the the past that the biggest obligation one can put forthcoming disability Bill. In that context, I have on an employer to spend money or to incur cost arranged for the National Disability Authority to to provide such facilities for people with disabilit- see me next week for a broad ranging discussion ies was nominal cost. It was a minimalist decision on the forthcoming disability Bill and this is one and one which was much criticised, but it was the issue I have put on the agenda for detailed dis- decision of the Supreme Court which said that cussion. I thank Deputy Paul McGrath for his was what the Constitution meant. suggestion in that regard.

Mr. P. McGrath: How recent was that? Mr. P. McGrath: On the basis of the commitment given by the Minister of State that these Mr. O’Dea: That was in regard to the Equal guidelines will be brought forward, I am prepared Status Act 2000. The position, in respect of the to withdraw my two amendments. employment equality legislation is that we have now been enabled to go beyond the Supreme Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Court decision because of an EU directive which overrules its decision. The question we must ask Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 not moved. is how far does it allow us to go. If one says that the incurring of extra cost is not to create a dis- Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I move amendment No. 9: proportionate burden on an employer, that is a more generous provision than the Supreme Court In page 12, between lines 44 and 45, to insert allowed, namely, nominal cost. Nominal cost is a the following: nod in the direction of costs and if one cannot “(d) With respect to a determination made make the necessary changes for literally nothing, under subsections (b) and (c) that the burden one does not have to make them at all. Now there imposed would be disproportionate, such a is an obligation. One must go to the point where conclusion may only be drawn on the basis one is putting a disproportionate burden on one’s of a calculation of the net cost to employers self. That is a much more generous test. However, after public funding and other available the question is how far do we go. assistance has been deducted.”. The interpretation in Deputy Paul McGrath’s amendment would take the matter further. The advice I got from the Attorney General’s office Amendment put and declared lost. because of the difficult legal system here is that it is best to stick to the wording of the directive. Mr. O’Dea: I move amendment No. 10: 1009 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1010

In page 13, line 16, to delete “Nothing” and national human rights law. As such, we should substitute “In relation to discrimination on the accept the amendment. basis of nationality, nothing”. The Equality Coalition had the following to say Further to the amendment to this provision, regarding the statutory positive duties which we which I proposed and which was accepted on are trying to promote. It pointed out that the Committee Stage, I have now moved the preced- Equality Bill does not include any sections ing additional amendment to this provision. As I amending the EEA or the ESA to incorporate a indicated on Committee Stage, the purpose of the positive duty to promote equality directed at pub- exclusion under paragraph (a) of section 10 is to lic sector employers and service providers. This permit the lawful operation of the work permits omission runs contrary to Ireland’s obligations regime, as provided for under the Employment under the Good Friday Agreement which require Permits Act 2003. The original provision included equivalent human rights and anti-discrimination in the Bill appears to be open to some misunder- protection, North and South. standing in this regard and, in consequence, a Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 simplified and more explicit provision was substi- imposes equality duties on public authorities and tuted on Committee Stage. implementation is overseen by the Equality Com- To clarify fully that the scope of the provision mission of Northern Ireland, a statutory body. is limited to discrimination on the basis of Compliance with these duties is secured through nationality only, and for consistency with wording the publication of equality schemes, which dem- used in the Bill concerning amendment of the onstrate to the commission’s satisfaction how the Equal Status Act 2000, I propose the insertion to public authority will promote equality of oppor- this additional text. It is simply a technical tunity between certain different individuals and amendment to improve what I proposed and groups. The Equality Authority has called for the what was accepted on Committee Stage. introduction of a parallel system here. In addition, it has called for the authority to be in a Amendment agreed to. position to monitor implementation of the statutory duty through the evaluation of action plans. Mr. O’Dea: I move amendment No. 11: Making these positive duties mandatory and statutory is in line with best practice. It is also in In page 14, line 49, to delete “deleted” and line with our duties and responsibilities under the substitute “repealed”. Good Friday Agreement to bring equality laws in This amendment is consequential to section 21, line with those in the Six Counties, so there will proposed by Deputy Paul McGrath on Commit- be equal laws in both states in this country. tee Stage, which I accepted. Sections 14 and 21 are connected in that both are being replaced by Mr. O’Dea: This matter was discussed at some section 8, inserting new section 14A into the Act length, particularly on Second Stage. When I list- of 1998. Therefore, I move that section 14 be ened to the speeches on Second Stage, I was amended as proposed. I am tidying up the word- amazed and had to consult my advisors to see if ing and effectively accepting an amendment that all other countries in Europe had such a positive was proposed by Deputy Paul McGrath on Com- duty in their legislation. I was surprised to dis- mittee Stage. cover that not one of them had, with the possible exception of Northern Ireland. The directives Amendment agreed to. themselves do not oblige any state to bring in positive duties in this regard. The directives are Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I move amendment in permissive form — they state that nothing shall No. 12: prevent individual states from introducing these In page 16, to delete lines 18 to 20 and substi- positive obligations. We have a provision in the tute the following: 1998 Act whereby positive discrimination is permitted for certain limited categories of people, “Nothing in this Part or Part II shall ren- namely, those over the age of 50, members of the der unlawful measures maintained or Traveller community and some others. The pro- adopted with a view to ensuring full equality posed amendment would make it much more in practice between employees, being posi- extensive because it permits positive discrimi- tive measures which employers must nation across all eight or nine grounds. take—”. As regards section 75 of the Northern Ireland The purpose of this amendment to section 22, Equality Act, my interpretation is that the Good which amends section 33 of the Employment Friday Agreement requires the Government to Equality Act, is to make positive measures a duty take steps to further strengthen the protection of rather than a protected option. We now have an human rights in its jurisdiction. The measures opportunity to introduce positive duties on public brought forward would ensure at least an equiv- sector bodies to promote equality. Although the alent level of protection of human rights as will new directives do not create any specific obli- pertain in Northern Ireland. It is not true, gations on member states in this regard, general however, to state that the Good Friday Agree- obligations to promote equality already exist in ment requires an equivalence of equality pro- the 1976 equality directive and under inter- visions North and South. In particular, the com- 1011 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1012

[Mr. O’Dea.] work properly and achieve something in practice. mitment to create a statutory obligation on public The Good Friday Agreement obliged this State authorities to carry out their functions with due to provide at least an equivalent level of protec- regard to the need to promote equality of oppor- tion of human rights as pertains in Northern tunity was made only by the British Government Ireland. That does not mean we have exactly the under the Good Friday Agreement. same equality provisions and deal with equality In any case, my understanding is that the legislation in exactly the same manner as it is Northern Ireland equality legislation is currently dealt with in Northern Ireland. All legislation being reviewed. A detailed review is being car- comes up for review occasionally. ried out to see whether those positive obligations Deputy O´ Snodaigh stated that section 75 of created in section 75 of the Northern Ireland the legislation in Northern Ireland is working legislation are working in practice. I understand very well, but I understand there are differing the review will be completed shortly, so the opinions as to whether it is making a real differ- Government’s preferred option is to await the ence. This is precisely why a detailed review has outcome of that review. As far as I know, that is been ordered. My understanding is that the the only legislation in the EU, which imposes results of that detailed review will be to hand very such positive obligations. We will await the outcome of the review to see how it is judged to be shortly. In the circumstances, it is more advisable operating in practice, whether in effect it is mak- to await the outcome before we take new steps in ing a real difference, what should be done and this jurisdiction. how it could be better implemented. We are awaiting the outcome of that wide-ranging review Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I take it from the Minister before taking any further steps in this regard. of State’s last point that if the review finds the legislation is working well and is a positive aspect Aengus O´ Snodaigh: The Government is of equality law, he will return to the House with awaiting a review but its attitude is regrettable new legislation to give effect to that in this because the review might be completed by the jurisdiction. end of the year, thus enhancing the protections and statutory duties involved in section 75 of the Mr. O’Dea: If, as the Deputy states, the review Northern Ireland Act. That means we will still be is positive, the Government will give serious con- lagging behind because the equality and human sideration to it. rights provisions of the Belfast Agreement state that what is required is to ensure at least an Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. equivalent level of protection of human rights as will pertain in Northern Ireland. Mr. P. McGrath: I beg the Acting Chairman’s Whether Germany or Poland have such statu- indulgence briefly. On Committee Stage, the tory duties is not necessarily relevant in this case. Minister of State tabled an amendment, which This is a duty and responsibility, which we, as citi- related to taking into account a person’s experi- zens of this State, have taken on board. The ence when considering him or her for seniority Government has a duty to implement it to ensure purposes. that an equivalent level of protection is afforded. In this respect, I am seeking the statutory duties Mr. O’Dea: We will deal with that presently. that have worked well so far. I realise that the Northern Ireland equality legislation is currently Mr. P. McGrath: Does the Minister of State being reviewed but, while there is always room have a further amendment on the issue? for improvement, it has been working well so far. The reason for the review is to see whether it Mr. O’Dea: No. can be enhanced, in addition to the fact that a review process was built into the legislation. All Mr. P. McGrath: It relates to section 23. legislation is reviewed on an ongoing basis, so there is no reason another review cannot begin once one has been concluded. It is a pity we are Mr. O’Dea: We are coming to it now. It is the delaying the introduction of such statutory duties. next amendment we will deal with. It is an issue Does the Minister of State agree that statutory I agreed to re-examine. duties can be positive? If there is a review in the North, and whether or not any other country has Mr. P. McGrath: That is correct. I want to dis- such statutory duties, it should make no differ- cuss it now because it relates to this section. ence if such duties can enhance human rights and There is a huge anomaly in section 23 about the equality agenda. We should be taking the lead which I am glad the Government Chief Whip is in this respect. It will be interesting to hear in the House to hear. whether or not the Minister of State agrees that statutory duties are positive. Mr. O’Dea: It is the subject of discussion under the amendment we are coming to, if the Acting Mr. O’Dea: Of course I agree that positive Chairman wishes to formally go through the statutory obligations are good, provided they process. 1013 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1014

Acting Chairman: Is it acceptable to the Will the amendment proposed by the Minister Deputy that the issue be discussed on the of State rectify the anomaly to which I referred amendment? in order that Members of this House, who recruit people with obvious experience, can place them Mr. P. McGrath: Arising from the deliberations on the appropriate level of the pay scale commen- of the Equality Authority almost two years surate with their experience? What is happening ago—— at present is grossly wrong, is militating against the quality of employees we employ and will Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin: Which amendment cause further difficulties in recruiting the clerical are we dealing with now? assistance staff we so badly need and who need to be able to act competently on our behalf. I Acting Chairman: We are proceeding to hope the Minister of State will clarify the posi- amendment No. 13 in the name of Deputy O´ Sno- tion. He promised he would examine the matter daigh but Deputy McGrath has raised a point on and revert to us on Report Stage. Therefore, I the section. hope he has all the answers for us and that the good news will emanate from him to everyone in Mr. P. McGrath: This issue has serious reper- the House. cussions, particularly for Members of the House ´ and the staff they recruit. Until almost two years Aengus O Snodaigh: I move amendment ago, when a person was recruited as a clerical No. 13: assistant in Leinster House or across the Civil In page 17, line 29, to delete “unlawful” and Service, his or her age was taken into account. substitute “lawful”. For example, at 18 years of age a person started on the base salary of \18,700. Prior to the change, The purpose of this amendment is to prevent the unfair remuneration of workers with a disability if a person came into the House aged 21 or 24 at a lower rate of pay. Section 35(a)(i) would years or older, he or she received progressively allow for discrimination on pay towards persons higher salaries. This was based on the fact that with a disability in that it would allow an older people would have previous experience employer to offer a lower rate of remuneration which was taken into account to put people at a for a disabled person if, by reason of disability, higher incremental point on the clerical assistant the amount of work done by the employee during scale. a particular period was less than the amount of It is my understanding that, based on the inter- work done, or which could reasonably be vention of the Equality Authority, if the Acting expected to be done, during that period by an Chairman or I now employ a person aged 30, 35 employee without the disability. It states that the or 40 years old as a clerical assistant in the House rate must be at least or above the national mini- and that person has a great deal of experience mum wage, but we should not legislate for dis- working in another office, is highly trained or crimination, as could happen in this regard. We possibly has a degree, he or she must still be should ensure that we delete such a reference so \ recruited at the bottom level of 18,700. That is that nothing in this part of the Bill would make it unacceptable and I am sure the Minister of State lawful for employers to discriminate against dis- is aware of the difficulty it is causing Members in abled people. their efforts to recruit staff with experience who can competently do the job we require them to Mr. O’Dea: I undertook to explain and deal do. If one gets a person who is more mature and more specifically with the point raised by Deputy able to deal with the kinds of queries we have, it Paul McGrath. The purpose of amending section is not possible to recruit them at that starting 34 of the 1998 Act may be explained as follows. salary. On Committee Stage, I moved an amendment to We discussed this issue on Committee Stage section 23, with a consequential amendment to and the Minister of State said he would examine section 3, to clarify that, for the purposes of it to see what could be done. The greater anomaly section 34(7) of the Act, relative seniority of is that in the case of two people recruited to our employees recruited at the same time may be group within three weeks of each other — one determined having regard to their respective ages before the change occurred and one after — the at the time of their recruitment because their person who was recruited before the change got length of service is equal and provided this is on to a higher point on the scale than her col- accepted in a collective agreement in place. The league who was recruited three weeks later. The provision is in compliance with article 6 of the net effect is that two women are doing the same framework employment directive and the amend- job very competently but one is receiving \100 ment was agreed. However, I promised to come less per week than the other. This goes against back to this and to explain more fully what will the spirit of what is contained in the legislation be the effect of the proposal. The effect of this when we refer to equality, equal work, access to amendment is to provide for the continued val- work, being competent to do the job and so on. idity of age provisions relating to the determi- That provision must be re-examined and nation of relative seniority where they have been changed. agreed collectively by employers and employees. 1015 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1016

[Mr. O’Dea.] In other words, what the section says in the We are talking about their relevance from the example advocated by Deputy McGrath is that if point of view of relative seniority and only when a person comes into this House at the age of 18 they have been the subject of a collective agree- seeking a job as a secretary and is employed as a ment. It is recognised that issues arise in the secretary, one is prevented by law, under the employment of staff and it may be impossible to specific terms of section 34(6) from paying her determine relative seniority based on length of less than another person who comes in on the service. This can arise where a number of staff same day and is twice her age, and probably has are recruited at the same time to the same cate- much more experience. gory of post or employment. In such cases a tie- breaker may be required as seniority is often used Mr. P. McGrath: Is that not the nub of the to agree rosters, allocate overtime and decide problem? which employees can take leave first and so on. Mr. O’Dea: Yes. Where the tie-breaker agreed between staff and employers in the context of a collective Mr. F. McGrath: We are faced with a situation agreement is based on the relative ages of the where because the issue is outlawed by law one employees at the time of recruitment, it is appro- cannot reward a person for his or her experience. priate to exclude such agreed arrangements from Hence we are again stuck with the problem where unlawful discrimination under the Act. By it will be extremely difficult to recruit staff. The allowing such tie-breakers, where they exist, to Minister of State knows the kind of person we continue to be lawful is irrelevant to the question need as secretary. Such a person has to be a Jack- of what recruitment or promotion criteria can be of-all-trades. He or she has to be competent as a taken into account by an employer. Such criteria secretary, has to be able to do research, deal with can include experience, training and so on. customers, clients and Departments, schedule Employees’ pay and pension rights are set by timetables and so on. These are not just clerical their terms and conditions of employment and assistants. their length of service and will be unaffected by This is a major problem. If, for example, the relative seniority and how it is determined. person we are looking for is put into a legal office, On Committee Stage, Deputy Paul McGrath that office will be able to pay them a great deal asked if the amendment proposed was relevant to more than they would get on the starting salary section 4 of the Houses of the Oireachtas Com- here of \18,700. This leads to difficulties in mission Act 2003. The answer is no. Section 4 of recruiting staff in Leinster House. The position is that Act makes provision, inter alia, for the rates not as bad in the provinces yet, but it will catch of pay, conditions of employment and superannu- up in a short time. ation rights of persons providing secretarial ser- Can section 34(6) of the 1998 Act be amended vices to the Houses of the Oireachtas. These or is there something we can do to alleviate the issues are completely separate from and unaffec- difficulty? Let us be honest, it is about helping ted by questions relating to how relative seniority, ourselves, helping the House to do its work better based on the length of service, is determined. and helping us to employ the clerical assistants In the context of the amendment to section 23 who will be competent to do the job for us. As we lose some of our senior people and wish to of the Bill and for the sake of added certainty as replace them we will not get people with the to its intention, a consequential amendment was experience necessary. Because section 34 of the made on Committee Stage to section (3A)(3) of 1998 Act is so perfect that one cannot discrimi- the Bill, amending section 2 of the Act of 1998 to nate on age grounds, surely it can be amended to define collective agreement. The advice I got is allow experience to count for incremental pur- that the problem adverted to by Deputy Paul poses. We have to be able to say that if a person McGrath is caused by section 34(6) of the 1998 comes in here with the relevant experience it Act, which prohibited rates of remuneration to enables that person to climb the ladder in terms be based on age. It gave a three-year lead-in per- of remuneration. We will not solve this problem iod. If rates of remuneration were based on age, today. I suggest the Minister of State and his staff differing according to a person’s age, one had look at the matter with a view to bringing forward three years in which to phase in equality. After a solution to get over this obvious difficulty. there years one had an absolute obligation under section 34(6) of the 1998 Act to outlaw discrimi- Mr. O’Dea: I am glad to inform Deputy nation in terms of remuneration based simply on McGrath I have the same secretary as I had 22 age. Section 34(6) reads: years ago and she has learned a great deal on the job. She is much wiser now than when she started. Where immediately before the relevant day [that is the implementation day] arrangements Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin: Could the Minister of are in force in any employment for age-related State replace her? remuneration, it shall be a sufficient compliance with this Part and Part II if those Mr. F. McGrath: If she left, the Minister of arrangements are brought to an end within the State would have to take on a person on a salary period of 3 years beginning on the relevant day. of \18,700. 1017 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1018

Mr. O’Dea: I understand there is a difficulty. boards. They did not have to start at clerical Deputy McGrath mentioned an amendment to officer grade again on \18,700. The fact that they provide for different rates of remuneration based had gained experience here was taken into on experience as evidenced by age. On the account when their salaries were allocated. Is it seniority issue we have permitted a very limited not ironic that while the purest example, which is amount of discrimination in the case of an here, involves a straightforward salary scale unusual tie-breaker where persons are recruited which starts at \18,700, State agencies being paid to the same post on the same day but happen to for from the public purse have a different system? be different ages, and the whole arrangement has I acknowledge the Minister of State says he will to be subject to a collective agreement. If we go consider the matter and will be able to come up further and allow exceptions for people to be with something with his officials. Will he examine remunerated, seniority only determines when one the issue as a matter of urgency as it is causing can take leave and so on. If it is to be extended several problems? It is an issue which must be to the area of pay — I understand the problem addressed quickly. which Deputy McGrath has identified and it is a real problem — the difficulty is that we would be Aengus O´ Snodaigh: Will the Minister of State in breach of the terms of the directives. address the concerns I raised through amendment If Deputy McGrath and I simultaneously No. 13? On the issue to which Deputy Paul acquire a vacancy in our offices for a secretarial McGrath referred, a simple solution would be to assistant and I take on a person of 20 years of age bring people in at a higher grade with a greater while Deputy McGrath takes on a person with level of remuneration. more experience at the age of 40, the system permits him to pay that person more. The converse Mr. O’Dea: I have asked my officials to send is that the system permits my secretarial assistant me a report on the matter, which I will discuss to be paid less, and that is in breach of section with the Chief Whip and the people who run the 34(6) of the 1998 Act. That section could be Houses of the Oireachtas. If Deputy Paul amended as there is no legislation that cannot be McGrath wishes to raise the matter with me again amended. However, it has to be amended within in due course, I will tell him what has happened. the terms of the EU directives. This is a real problem and I am pleased Deputy McGrath has Mr. P. McGrath: If the officials want clarifica- brought it to our attention. I may not have con- tion, I can give them names. centrated on it sufficiently on Committee Stage in the Seanad but now I understand it perfectly. Mr. O’Dea: On Committee Stage, I rejected I will discuss the problem with the Chief Whip the Fine Gael amendment which Deputy O´ Sno- and my officials to see whether there is any way daigh has moved as amendment No. 13. As I said around it. Whatever about the legislation, we previously, the amendment would remove an must be conscious of the terms of the equality intentionally enabling provision from the 1998 directives. Act and replace it with an inflexible and dogmatic approach. Section 24 involves a strengthening of Mr. P. McGrath: While I do not wish to labour the provisions in section 35 and provides added the point further, it is crucial. If the EU directive safeguards to ensure that different rates of has not taken into account the relevant experi- remuneration may be paid only by reference to a ence of two people of different ages, there is lesser output of work in a particular period. something radically wrong. How do we cope in We have discussed the provision in the 1998 our own circumstances given that we have long- Act on disability as a discriminatory ground. We service increments? Does it mean we are dis- have discussed how section 16, which is also being criminating against the rookie in his first year if strengthened by the Bill, requires employers to the older codgers like the Minister of State and accommodate the needs of people with disabilit- me who have been Members of this House for a ies in the workplace and places a more onerous long time are paid more because of our experi- requirement to introduce appropriate measures ence? Many would say we are doing the same job. to achieve this. Where an employee continues to be unable to participate in employment without Mr. O’Dea: The increment is based on length further accommodation above and beyond the of service, not age. scope of section 16, section 24 allows an alternative arrangement to be entered into subject to Mr. P. McGrath: Is it not experience really? important safeguards. These safeguards limit the basis on which a different rate of pay may be pro- Mr. O’Dea: No, length of service. vided relative to the output in a given time. In no case can a rate less than the minimum wage Mr. P. McGrath: Can somebody who was doing be paid. the same job in a different sector have the experi- As I said on Committee Stage, this provision is ence from a previous job taken into account? A not intended to punish people with disabilities, it further remarkable point comes to my mind that is made with the specific purpose of encouraging some of the secretaries who left us here went to employers to employ more disabled people. In work in State agencies, hospitals and health the real world, if an employer is faced with an 1019 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1020

[Mr. O’Dea.] Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. able-bodied and disabled candidate for a job, which requires a certain degree of physical ability, Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I move amendment his or her natural inclination will be to consider No. 14: that the able-bodied person will be more pro- In page 17, line 45, after “by” to insert “the ductive. If the employer must pay the same salary deletion of section 37(1) and”. to either candidate, why would he or she not choose the able-bodied person? I am sure an The purpose of the proposed deletion of section employer would be able to invent all manner of 37(1) is to protect workers from unnecessary dis- excuses because no one will admit that he or she crimination by religious institutions on the did not employ a person on the ground of dis- ground of religion or any other ground. Section ability. The provision in question is intended to 37(1) of the Employment Equality Act 1998 pro- encourage employers and give them an incentive vides that a religious institution may give favour- to employ people with disability. able treatment to prospective employees of a par- Discrimination on these grounds is recognised ticular faith: as necessary in the EU directive itself. I admit . . . where it is reasonable to do so in order to that section 35 of the 1998 Act dealt with this area maintain the religious ethos of the institution, but its provisions were a little loose, ambiguous or and broad. Certain unscrupulous employers might have been enabled to abuse legislation (b) it takes action which is reasonably neces- drafted in such vague and general terms. We have sary to prevent an employee or a prospective tightened up the provisions immeasurably and employee from undermining the religious ethos provided that discrimination of this nature can of the institution. only occur in employment where output can be However, what exactly constitutes a reasonable measured over a particular period. This is far justification for such discrimination remains from being the case in every employment. The unspecified. A religious institution seeking an criterion is very specific. I have asked for the excuse to terminate or refuse to hire or promote legislation to be drafted to ensure that an an employee because, for example, the person is employer cannot discriminate in jobs in which gay, divorced or West African, could too easily specific outputs cannot be measured over a par- point to vague provisions as justification. ticular period. Such jobs constitute probably the I have written to the Minister on this matter majority of positions now, although that is on foot of concerns raised with me by the Irish another day’s work. Senator Terry of Fine Gael National Teachers’ Organisation, whose material pointed out on Committee Stage in the Seanad I included with my letter. The Minister will also that provision had not been made for a minimum be aware that the Equality Authority’s recom- wage, which we should have noted ourselves. I mendation No. 30 recommends that the provision accepted her amendment and thanked her as it of section 37(1) on religious ethos should be was important to include that safeguard. amended to ensure it is not a source of discrimi- I reassure the House that this is an enabling nation on the grounds of sexual orientation or provision, which is made not to punish disabled family status in particular. persons but to give employers the proper incen- The religious institutions already have suf- tive to employ them. If we provide that an ficient protection. Therefore, this section is employer must pay a disabled or able-bodied unnecessary, besides being potentially harmful. employee at the same rate even in occupations For example, section 16 of the Bill provides that where output is measurable over a particular per- nothing in the Act shall be construed as requiring iod and it is manifest that a disabled person will any person to recruit or promote an individual to produce less through no fault of his or her own, a position, to retain an individual in a position or it is logical that the employer will hire the able- to provide training or experience to an individual bodied person. Employers would be able to make in relation to a position, if the individual will not a range of excuses on grounds of experience, etc. undertake or, as the case may be, continue to The provision is an enabling one. We have accept the conditions under which those duties reduced exclusion to the maximum possible are, or may be required to be, performed. For extent to make it very narrow. It relates only to these reasons, I believe the deletion of section occupations in which output can be measured 37(1) is necessary to strengthen the Act to pro- over a period and in which it is demonstrable that vide a genuine guarantee of equality and freedom the output of the disabled person will be less than from discrimination in employment by religious that of the able-bodied person. In those circum- institutions. stances, an employer might be encouraged to take on two people with disabilities where a disabled Mr. O’Dea: I received a copy of Deputy O´ Sno- person’s output is half, although they will not be daigh’s correspondence to the Minister for Jus- paid at a rate less than the minimum wage. tice, Equality and Law Reform and he kindly I ask the House to accept the section as it enclosed a copy of the correspondence he stands. It is being introduced to aid people with received from the INTO. Having examined the disabilities not to punish them. correspondence and noted the difficulties the 1021 Equality Bill 2004 : 1 July 2004. Report and Final Stages 1022

INTO has with the section, I think its fears are Section 69 of the Act of 1998 is amended misplaced. by the addition of the following subsection On Committee Stage Deputy O´ Snodaigh after subsection (6): referred to concerns the INTO had about section ‘(6A) Where an employer fails to have 37(1) of the 1998 Act, a provision not subject to an equality action plan (irrespective of amendment in the Equality Bill 2004. I under- whether he or she had been required pur- stand these concerns relate to the application of suant to this section to have such a plan) the provision beyond the general provision with it shall be presumed until the contrary is regard to occupational requirement and that it is shown in any proceedings under this Act not confined in scope to the religious ground. I that the employer has failed to take such responded to these issues when the Bill was steps as are reasonable to protect the debated in the Seanad. However, in line with employees of such an employer from dis- undertakings I gave to the Seanad and the com- crimination.’.”. mittee, in the meantime further consideration has been given to the provision. I am satisfied that The purpose of this amendment is to require the present wording of the provision, which pro- employers to take positive action on racism. We vides for two distinct forms of conduct for specific discussed this on Committee Stage. I asked for reasons, is integral to the overall balance and the Minister’s reply on this matter to be for- cohesion of the provision and the circumstances warded to me but I did not get it, although I did in which the religious ethos of an institution may get replies on two other issues. I would now like be maintained and protected. to hear what the Minister has to say on the issue. The distinction made in section 37(1) is I intend to withdraw one amendment as a result between permitting more favourable treatment of of one of the replies I received. I understand the one person compared to another under para- non-sending of the reply was an oversight and do graph 37(1)(a) on the one hand, and on the other, not wish to be critical. taking action to prevent a person from undermin- However, as I said on Committee Stage, now ing such an ethos under paragraph 37(1)(b). In that we have more foreign and permit workers the former case, discrimination is permitted by than ever, if employers are more proactive on reference to the religion ground and must be racism, we will have a better working envir- defended by reference to the religion or non- onment for employees. If employees were aware religion of the person discriminated against. In that their employers were active on the issue, this the latter case, the religious ethos of the employer would reduce the incidence of racism in the work- may give rise to a need to take action to prevent place. Employers should not sit back and wait to another person, regardless of that person’s be forced by the Equality Authority to take religion or non-religion, from undermining this action on racism. It is an issue we must face up ethos. to. Although we did not believe it would happen, Strict tests apply to the application of the unfortunately, it takes place every day. exemption in section 37(1)(b). First, the discrimi- Many of our foreign workers work hard, like nation must be essential for the maintenance of our former emigrants, to send money home to the religious ethos of the institution and, second, their families and should be allowed to work it must be reasonable in order to avoid undermin- without suffering the type of racist insults they ing that ethos. These are not subjective tests, receive in the workplace. I urge the Minister to which would apply on the simple say-so or require that employers be more proactive on opinion of the institution concerned. They are racism in the workplace particularly now that balanced, objective tests, which can be adjudi- there are so many foreign workers in the country cated upon by independent third parties such as who need to be protected from the racist equality officers, the Labour Court or, in some minority. circumstances, other courts. I have had complaints from foreigners working Section 31 of the 1998 Act was inserted to per- here. It is difficult enough to work in a foreign mit discrimination by religious bodies in certain country, with language barriers, etc., without hav- circumstances. These provisions are not affected ing to tolerate racist remarks in the workplace. by, the provisions of the equality directives, the This does not help their situation. The Minister transposition of which is the purpose of this legis- of State may not accept this amendment but will lation. Article 4.1 of the framework employment he and his officials examine the issue of racism, directive mirrors the provisions in section 37(1) particularly as it occurs in large workplaces? It does not seem to occur so much in the smaller and it is not proposed to amend this provision in workplaces because they are more intimate the Bill before the House. places in which to work. I urge the Minister of State to research the issue and do something Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. about it. Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin: I move amendment Mr. O’Dea: I am in broad agreement with No. 15: Deputy Moynihan-Cronin. We must deplore In page 19, between lines 22 and 23, to insert what is a minority situation. Racism does not the following: occur everywhere but I too have come across inci- 1023 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1024

[Mr. O’Dea.] are hereby made to the Bill; that Fourth Stage is dents of it. It must be condemned in the strong- hereby completed; and the Bill is hereby passed.” est terms. The difficulty with this amendment is that Question put and agreed to. nowhere in the directives is it envisaged that there should be a compulsion on employers to Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: Report Stage establish equality plans. In the 1998 Act the (Resumed) and Final Stage. Equality Authority is given the right to ask employers to establish such plans on certain Debate resumed on amendment No. 51: occasions and is also given the right to establish them itself. The difficulty with this amendment is In page 27, line 41, to delete “market” and that compulsion is not envisaged. If we accepted substitute “fair”. the amendment in its present form, effectively, it —(Deputy Morgan). would mean that indirectly there would be compulsion because irrespective of what anybody said An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We are resuming then, the employer literally would have no on amendments Nos. 51 to 56, inclusive, 60a and defence. The presumption goes against the 159. Deputy Morgan moved amendment No. 51 employer. and Deputies Cuffe and Gilmore spoke on it. I I take on board what the Deputy said. I have a call the Minister of State to give his comments fairly detailed reply on this and I will arrange for on it. a copy of it to be sent immediately to the Deputy. This is a matter that must be examined in some Minister of State at the Department of the detail. Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Mr. N. Ahern): I have spoken already on the group of amendments before us. In regard to An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: At it is now amendment No. 53, I undertook to reconsider 1 p.m. I will have to put the question, but prior this amendment relating to the notice of change to doing so I understand the Minister of State of rent, as I appreciated Deputy Gilmore’s objec- indicated his intention to accept Opposition tive in tabling the amendment. A view that there amendment No. 25. Can I get confirmation from should be no need for any notice to be given him on that? before a rent reduction comes into effect is understandable, and that might be so in many Mr. O’Dea: Yes, amendment No. 25 is an cases. However, it is also possible that the tenant Opposition amendment in the name of Deputy might not be agreeable to the amount of the Moynihan-Cronin on behalf of the Labour Party. reduction and would wish to take a case to the It is a useful amendment and it will tenancies board in this matter and given that 1 o’clock enhance the legislation considerably. possibility I do want to accept that amendment. I I sincerely thank Deputy Moynihan- understand the motivation behind it, which is to Cronin and her advisers, some of whom I know, ensure that rent reductions come into effect as for their ingenuity in putting forward this amend- quickly as possible. It is conceivable that in the ment. I am delighted to accept it. case of a downwards rent review a landlord may be in no hurry to issue the written notification Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin: I thank the Minister and, thus, activate the decrease. of State for that. I oppose amendments Nos. 54 and 55. A rent review may mean a decrease or an increase, Mr. O’Dea: I thank all Deputies and Senators particularly in the current market conditions, and for their constructive and informed contributions it is not therefore in the interests of tenants to to this debate. The Bill is now a far better one wait 56 days for it to become effective. than the one we started with. That is due in great I do not intend to accept amendment No. 60a measure to the positive contributions of Oppo- in the name of Deputy Cuffe. It allows for annual sition Deputies. I take this opportunity to thank rent increases at the rate of inflation plus up to 5%. It is in conflict with section 19 in Part 3, my officials for the sterling work they have done, which prohibits rents greater than the market often late at night when amendments came in rate. The rent provisions in the Bill are based on late, in preparing the legislation. They have done ensuring that the rent charged to any tenant does a tremendous job. Equality law here has been not exceed the going market rate for the type, enhanced immeasurably by what has been done standard and location of property involved. The by the Government side, my officials and by the measure proposed by Deputy Cuffe would not be contributions of the Opposition. compatible with this approach. Moreover, as it allows the charging of rents above the market An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: In accordance rate, it is unfair to tenants at a time when market with the order of the Da´il I must put the follow- rents are declining. In some cases it might seem ing question: “That amendment No. 25 and the like a logical move, but in the current climate amendments set down by the Minister for Justice, when rents are decreasing, it would not be fair to Equality and Law Reform and not disposed of tenants when they would expect a greater supply 1025 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1026 of rental accommodation to translate into lower Amendment put and declared lost. rents. That is happening in many, if not all, areas of Dublin. Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 53: One of the functions of the board is to advise In page 28, line 25, before “pursuant” to on any legislative amendments that to it seem to insert “which is greater than the existing rent”. be necessary, particularly in regard to the operations of Part 3 dealing with rent setting and rent reviewing. If the board at any stage into the Amendment put and declared lost. future is of the view that market rent is being manipulated, it will advise me or the Minister of Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 54: the day that this aspect of the legislation is not In page 28, line 29, to delete “28” and substi- working as intended and action can be taken at tute “56”. that stage.

Mr. Morgan: I will respond briefly to a number Question, “That the figure proposed to be of valid points raised by the Minister of State and deleted stand”, put and declared carried. Deputy Gilmore in regard to amendments Nos. 54 and 55 in respect of the term of notice. I Amendment declared lost. believe landlords think about this before they do it. Giving notice of 28 days, particularly in cases Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 55: where rent is increasing, has the potential to In page 28, line 38, to delete “28” and substi- break the back of a tenant. This difficulty could tute “56”. be addressed by, the landlord giving additional notice. I accept that in the current market we may shortly begin to move towards a decrease in rents, Question, “That the figure proposed to be but there is not overwhelming evidence of that at deleted stand”, put and declared carried. present. Given the points I made earlier, which I will not repeat, in terms of tenants’ significant Amendment declared lost. monthly rent payments, on balance, an additional period notice would be valuable. Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 56: Regarding the issue of what we call a book of In page 29, to delete lines 4 to 8 and substi- quantum, the Minister of State spoke about the tute the following: market rent possibly decreasing and, therefore, if the book of quantum was in position, it would fall “24.—(1) In this Part ’fair rent’, in relation behind and would be an imposition on the tenant to the tenancy of a dwelling, means the rent as opposed to a benefit. I do not really accept which is in accordance with the book of that because the board could cause the book of quantum which has been drawn up by the quantum to be reviewed fairly regularly, perhaps Residential Tenancies Board, having regard initially on an annual basis and eventually every to—”. few years would probably suffice, as the private rented market settles down. That is the thrust of Question, “That the words proposed to be what we should be trying to do here, namely, to deleted stand”, put and declared carried. have the European model where people would not necessarily aspire to own their own homes Amendment declared lost. and they could live in rented accommodation when that market has settled down. People would An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Amendments have a good relationship, at least in legal terms, Nos. 57, 57a, 58, 58a, 59 to 60, inclusive, 60b,61 with their landlords and could expect to spend all to 63, inclusive, 63a, 64, 78 and 79 are related. of their days in their rented accommodation. I am Amendment No. 58 is an alternative to amend- disappointed that the book of quantum in par- ment No. 57a, amendments Nos. 58, 59, 61 and ticular is not being accepted. 64 are cognate, amendment No. 58a is an alternative to amendment No. 59, amendment No. 61 is Question, “That the word proposed to be an alternative to amendment No. 60b, amend- deleted stand”, put and declared carried. ments Nos. 63 and 63a are alternatives to amendment No. 62. Amendments Nos. 57, 57a, 58, 58a, Amendment declared lost. 59 to 60, inclusive, 60b, 61 to 63, inclusive, 63a, 64, 78 and 79 will be taken together by agreement. Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 52: In page 27, after line 47, to insert the Mr. McCormack: I move amendment No. 57: following: In page 30, between lines 25 and 26, to insert “(3) In any proceedings under this Act, the the following: burden shall lie on the landlord to show that “27.—Where a landlord terminates a ten- any increased rent is not greater than the ancy prior to the expiry of the non-protec- market rent for that tenancy at that time.”. tion period, he or she shall provide the ten- 1027 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1028

[Mr. McCormack.] is passed but when the Minister commences Part ant with a written explanation of the reasons 4 of the Act. In other words, existing tenants, of for the termination.”. whom there are approximately 150,000 in the private rented sector, will effectively be placed on Mr. Gilmore: These amendments relate to the a six-month probation when Part 4 comes into conditions of tenancy laid down in Part 4, which effect. Section 27 states: “In this Part ”continuous deals with the issue of tenure. The formula being period of 6 months“ means a continuous period proposed by the Minister of State is that after a of 6 months that commences on or after the rel- period of six months’ tenancy, a tenant will qual- evant date.” The relevant date is defined in ify for a four-year right of tenancy provided that section 5 as the “date on which Part 4 is com- the landlord does not need to recover that prop- menced”. On the day this Act, under its present erty within the period for any of the reasons terms, comes into effect, every tenant in the coun- stated in the Bill. At the end of the four years, try will go back on probation for a period of six however, the tenant has no further rights and months. The clock will start ticking for the six must, under the legislation, go back on a six months and if the landlord is satisfied at the end month probation before becoming entitled to a of the six months the tenant may get a four year further four year right of tenancy. tenancy. The Labour Party does not agree with that I propose that the term “the relevant date” approach to security of tenure. Our view, as should be replaced by “28 May 2003”, which was expressed on Committee Stage, is that the formal the date the Bill was published. That is the nor- security of tenure should be such that after a pro- mal practice. In a Bill introducing new rights, for bationary period, about whose length we can example, the rights usually apply from the date argue, a tenant becomes the tenant and remains from which the Bill is published. In any Bill, such such as long as the property remains rented prop- as company or planning legislation, which erty and for so long as the tenant complies with changes the nature of a contract between two the tenancy agreement. The landlord has rights people the operative date is the date of publi- to seek to terminate the tenancy if, for example, cation and not the date on which the relevant he needs the property for his own use or if he is Part commences. The effect of amendment No. disposing of it for some other type of use, as pro- 60 would be that existing tenants would know vided for in the Bill. The arrangements are in that their position is secure and they would not place through the Residential Tenancies Board find themselves, six months after commencement for the adjustment of rents, etc. The arrangement of the Act, being given a notice to leave by their should be analogous to an employment contract landlord. whereby one has a probationary period and remains in continuous employment for as long as Mr. McCormack: Assuming the amendments there is employment for one and under which are not accepted by the Minister, what will hap- there is a mechanism by which disputes can be pen if a landlord terminates a tenancy after five resolved. Similarly, a tenancy agreement should months? Will all the rights a tenant has built up hold for as long as the property is being let for be eliminated? If that is the case I will support residential purposes and the terms of the tenancy the amendment, which would reduce the trial agreement are complied with. period to three months. Any landlord will be Some of these amendments, which are pro- watchful of new tenants and the first three posing to delete certain subsections, comprise an months will tell the story of a tenant’s legitimacy attempt to establish a continuous tenancy or conduct. Anything that cannot be found out in arrangement. Others, however, address the spec- the first three months will not be found out in ifics of the four year arrangement. Let me draw six. If the amendments are not accepted will the attention to some flaws in what is proposed. landlord retain the right to terminate a tenancy Amendment No. 58, which is in my name, seeks after five or five and a half months, and for to replace the six month probationary period with what reasons? a three month probationary period. There is no reason a landlord would not be able to determine Mr. Cuffe: I find myself in disagreement with within three months or sooner whether the tenant both the Minister of State and the Labour Party is paying the rent regularly, honouring the ten- on the fundamental issue of rights of tenure. The ancy agreement, respecting the property and not Government is proposing that there be a cut-off causing a nuisance to neighbours. I do not know date every four years and that no tenant should what the landlord will find out about a tenant in have rights to a period longer than four years. months four, five and six that he or she will not Under the Labour Party proposal, once a tenant have found in months one, two and three. There- is in residence for three months he or she may fore, the probationary period should be reduced remain for life. The fairer solution is a happy to three months. medium between the two. Amendment No. 60 seeks to delete “the rel- I propose that tenancy rights increase evant date” and substitute “28 May 2003”. This incrementally. A landlord will know much more was the date of publication of this Bill. The Mini- about a tenant after three years than after three ster is proposing that, once this Bill is enacted, months. There are many circumstances in which the four year tenancy will begin not when the Act a landlord may wish to plan in advance for a per- 1029 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1030 iod of weeks, months or years as to when he or mission was obliged to make a judgment call, hav- she might like to have a vacant property. For ing examined the question at great length, to instance, a landlord might have a child who in a come up with a reasonable balance between the couple of years time will go to a college close to different interests of landlords and tenants. where the dwelling is situated. A reasonable way I hear the argument about the need for a pro- to proceed would be to tell the tenant that the bationary period, whether it should be six months use of the dwelling would be required in two and whether there should be a probationary per- years time, rather than invoke the family member iod the second time around. This was the com- clause. This would give people on both sides an mission’s recommendation as the best way to element of certainty. introduce a measure of security of tenure so that Allowing rights to accrue incrementally would a landlord would, in practice, be happy to allow help all those involved. An elderly person could a tenant to occupy a dwelling on an ongoing basis. be told at the age of 60, 70 or 80 that he or she We are trying to ensure that both sides have trust must leave in 16 weeks’ time. That is not fair. It and faith in the system so that they can enter a is fair to allow rights to increase incrementally so new era. We have seen how counter-productive that after renting for five weeks a tenant must be the current long occupation lease system is under given one week’s notice to leave, after five the Landlord and Tenant Acts. We have all come months he or she must be given a month’s notice across cases where, theoretically, people have and after five years a year’s notice. That gives rights after 20 years but, in practice, landlords more of an element of certainty to both sides and have found some reason to oblige them to move is a fairer way of proceeding. to another apartment or house as the 20 year The Government’s proposals do not go far limit approaches. An absolute theoretical right enough and the Labour Party’s proposals go too can act as a block and work against a tenant. far. The Green Party’s solution is contained in The four year upper limit in the Bill prevents amendment No. 63a. legal significance attaching to the fact that a particular tenant has occupied a property for a long Mr. Morgan: I am glad I did not speak before period of time. A tenant may be in occupation Deputy Cuffe because he would have disagreed but have no legal right. The landlord can, with me also. I now have the privilege of dis- comfortably, go on renting the property to the agreeing with him and supporting the Labour tenant as long as it suits both sides. Party position. The Sinn Fe´in position is con- Theoretical rights are of no use if they do not tained in amendments Nos. 58, 59, 61, 62 and 64. The six month period is too long. A number of help in the real situation. We are trying to achieve the Sinn Fe´in amendments refer to reducing the a balance in the Bill that will lead to real run-in period to three months. A key element is improvements for tenants who wish to achieve the settling down of the tenant and landlord as greater security of tenure. Landlords are in the quickly as possible, and three months should be business of letting property and making money, more than enough time to do that. not in the business of evicting people for no Amendment No. 62 deals with the review after reason. If the new regime ensures they get market four years. This is a disconcerting element to put rent, be it from a new or old tenant, and if the into the Bill. We all agree with the general thrust tenant has proved himself, why would the land- of the Bill but some of the sections jar signifi- lord be in a mad rush to get rid of a good tenant cantly. There is no need for a review after four who has respected the property? Why would he years. When people have established their ten- jump into the unknown and get rid of a tenant ancy they should be allowed to get on with their with a proven track record and introduce some- lives in the knowledge that they may remain in one who might turn out to be a messer? It does their dwellings so long as they behave themselves. not make sense. Landlords want business and What more could be asked of anyone? Even money and we are introducing a system that is settled loyal tenants will look forward to their balanced. I do not want to accept any amend- four year review with concern and trepidation. ments that move away from that. Such a review is unnecessary and I hope the Mini- A tenant has no rights unless he or she has ster of State will not require it to be made. been resident in a dwelling for more than six months. If he or she is there for five and a half Mr. N. Ahern: We discussed this matter at months, the landlord can give due notice to him great length on Committee Stage. This was one or her to leave without a reason. A person only of the core recommendations of the commission secures his rights after six months. Amendment and I am reluctant to move away from it. The No. 57 states that a landlord terminating a ten- issue could be debated either way. We know the ancy within that six month period must provide situation in Ireland and there is little point in the tenant with a written explanation of the talking about what happens in other countries. reasons for termination. That conflicts with the We are trying to change the situation in Ireland core recommendation of the commission that and the question is how that is to be done. It there should be a six month qualifying period at would be easy to take either side of the argument the start of each tenancy during which the land- and to say that six months is too long or too short, lord would be free to terminate without having to depending on who one represented. The com- give a specific reason. 1031 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1032

[Mr. N. Ahern.] of the commission, which did a superb job, partic- Amendment No. 79 seeks to delete section 42, ularly the chairman, but a compromise coming which provides for the right of termination without of discussions that involve parties with dif- out providing a reason in the first six months. The fering interests does not always make the best same point applies; it is in conflict with the legislation. Our job is to legislate for what works recommendation of the commission. It recom- and I do not think this four-year provision will mended this format to introduce a security of ten- be workable. ure measure in such a way that landlords would Of all of the amendments we are taking be happy to allow a tenant to occupy the dwelling together, however, the one I ask the Minister of on an ongoing basis. The operation of the initial State to reconsider, even at this late stage, is probationary period provides the acceptable basis amendment No. 60 which provides that, for exist- for allowing the subsequent three and a half years ing tenants, the clock should have started on their security of tenure. six months on the day the Bill was published. It The Bill may not be perfect but it is a huge was never the intention of the commission or the improvement on the situation as it was. We must, Minister of State that, as soon as this Bill was however, be reasonable to both sides. For years passed, every one of the 150,000 tenants in this landlords were able to terminate at any time with- State would go on six months’ probation and, out specifying any grounds. The new system will within that six months, the landlord could evict be a huge step forward for tenants. Under the him without giving a reason. new set-up, tenants, unlike landlords, will be able to terminate at any time without giving any Mr. N. Ahern: They can do that now. reason, provided they give due notice. The landlord, once the six-month period has passed, can Mr. Gilmore: Ironically, we are passing legis- get the property back, but only under specified lation purportedly to give tenants additional reasons. It may well be that in ten or 15 years, rights but the unwitting effect in the immediate we will have moved into a new, more European term will be that, when enacted, the State’s ten- situation, but we must recognise from where we ants will have fewer rights for six months than came and how we will move forward in they had beforehand. partnership. I will not be accepting amendments Nos. 57a, Mr. N. Ahern: That is not the case. 58, 58a, 59, 60b, 61 and 64 because they all make the same point. This was one of the core recom- Mr. Morgan: I have acknowledged the good mendations of the commission and I do not want elements of this Bill and welcomed the thrust of to move away from that. That applies to the it. The Minister of State, however, has made it other questions. clear that he will not accept these amendments, Deputy Cuffe’s amendment No. 63a would even though this six month review every four reduce the tenant’s security of tenure. It depends years will only cause disruption and unease. on the situation on completion of the qualifying period but could reduce the secure tenure from Amendment put and declared lost. three and half years to 36 days, or six days if the qualifying period was reduced to a month, as the Mr. Cuffe: I move amendment No. 57a: Deputy sought in another amendment. I under- In page 30, line 26, to delete “6 months” and stand what the Deputy wants to achieve, but the substitute “1 month”. way Part 4 has been structured makes it impossible. The more we reduce the qualifying period, the fewer rights the tenant will have. Question, “That the word and figure proposed to be deleted stand”, put and declared carried. Mr. Gilmore: On Deputy Cuffe’s concern with the approach being taken by the Labour Party to Amendment declared lost. security of tenure, why should a tenant not have tenancy for life if the landlord continues to rent Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 58: the property? Why would the landlord want to In page 30, line 26, to delete “6” and substi- change after four, eight or 12 years? If he is a tute “3”. good tenant and the rent is sorted out by way of the residential tenancies board and is the market rent, and the landlord is happy to continue to let Question, “That the figure proposed to be the property, why should the sitting tenant not deleted stand”, put and declared carried. have the first call on it? Amendment declared lost. The difficulty with a fixed-term arrangement is that it would encourage landlords to discontinue Amendment Nos. 58a and 59 not moved. tenancies. The four years will come to an end and the landlord will think he must serve notice on Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 60: the tenant because otherwise he would acquire additional rights. It will create insecurity. This is In page 30, lines 27 and 28, to delete “the a compromise that came out of the deliberations relevant date” and substitute “28 May 2003”. 1033 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1034

Question, “That the words proposed to be In page 30, between lines 28 and 29, to insert deleted stand”, put and declared carried. the following: “28.—Any annual rent increase shall be Amendment declared lost. capped to a 5 per cent increase over the rate of inflation in that year.”. Mr. Cuffe: I move amendment No. 60a: Amendment put.

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 44; Nı´l, 52.

Ta´

Breen, Pat. McGinley, Dinny. Broughan, Thomas P. McGrath, Finian. Bruton, Richard. McHugh, Paddy. Burton, Joan. Mitchell, Gay. Connaughton, Paul. Mitchell, Olivia. Connolly, Paudge. Morgan, Arthur. Cowley, Jerry. Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda. Crawford, Seymour. Murphy, Gerard. Cuffe, Ciarań. Naughten, Denis. Deenihan, Jimmy. Neville, Dan. Durkan, Bernard J. O´ Caolaín, Caoimhghıń. English, Damien. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Ferris, Martin. O’Shea, Brian. Gilmore, Eamon. Penrose, Willie. Gormley, John. Ryan, Eamon. Gregory, Tony. Ryan, Seań. Harkin, Marian. Sargent, Trevor. Healy, Seamus. Shortall, Ro´ isıń. Higgins, Joe. Stagg, Emmet. Howlin, Brendan. Timmins, Billy. Lynch, Kathleen. Upton, Mary. McCormack, Padraic. Wall, Jack.

Nı´l

Ahern, Michael. Kitt, Tom. Ahern, Noel. McDaid, James. Brady, Johnny. McEllistrim, Thomas. Brady, Martin. Martin, Michea´l. Callanan, Joe. Moloney, John. Carey, Pat. Moynihan, Donal. Carty, John. Moynihan, Michael. Cregan, John. Nolan, M. J. Curran, John. O´ Fearghaı´l, Seań. Davern, Noel. O’Connor, Charlie. Dempsey, Noel. O’Donnell, Liz. Dempsey, Tony. O’Donoghue, John. Dennehy, John. O’Keeffe, Batt. Devins, Jimmy. O’Keeffe, Ned. Ellis, John. O’Malley, Fiona. Finneran, Michael. O’Malley, Tim. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Parlon, Tom. Glennon, Jim. Power, Peter. Grealish, Noel. Power, Seań. Hanafin, Mary. Sexton, Mae. Haughey, Seań. Smith, Brendan. Jacob, Joe. Treacy, Noel. Keaveney, Cecilia. Wallace, Dan. Kelleher, Billy. Walsh, Joe. Kelly, Peter. Woods, Michael. Kirk, Seamus. Wright, G. V.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Cuffe and Durkan; Nı´l, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher.

Amendment declared lost. Question, “That the figure and word proposed to be deleted stand”, put and declared carried. Mr. Cuffe: I move amendment No. 60b: Amendment declared lost. In page 30, line 30, to delete “6 months” and substitute “1 month”. Acting Chairman (Mr. Kirk): Amendment No. 61 cannot be moved. 1035 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1036

Amendment No. 61 not moved. “being from—— (i) the commencement of the tenancy, Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 62: or In page 30, lines 35 to 41, to delete all words (ii) the relevant date, from and including “being---” in line 35 down whichever is later.”. to and including “or” in line 41 and in page 31, to delete lines 1 to 4 and substitute the Question put: “That the words and figures pro- following: posed to be deleted stand.”

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 55; Nı´l, 37.

Ta´

Ahern, Michael. McEllistrim, Thomas. Ahern, Noel. Martin, Michea´l. Brady, Johnny. Moloney, John. Brady, Martin. Moynihan, Donal. Callanan, Joe. Moynihan, Michael. Carey, Pat. Mulcahy, Michael. Carty, John. Nolan, M. J. Cregan, John. O´ Fearghaı´l, Seań. Cuffe, Ciarań. O’Connor, Charlie. Curran, John. O’Donnell, Liz. Davern, Noel. O’Donoghue, John. Dempsey, Noel. O’Keeffe, Batt. Dempsey, Tony. O’Keeffe, Ned. Dennehy, John. O’Malley, Fiona. Devins, Jimmy. O’Malley, Tim. Ellis, John. Parlon, Tom. Finneran, Michael. Power, Peter. Glennon, Jim. Power, Seań. Grealish, Noel. Ryan, Eamon. Hanafin, Mary. Sargent, Trevor. Haughey, Seań. Sexton, Mae. Jacob, Joe. Smith, Brendan. Keaveney, Cecilia. Treacy, Noel. Kelleher, Billy. Wallace, Dan. Kelly, Peter. Walsh, Joe. Kirk, Seamus. Woods, Michael. Kitt, Tom. Wright, G. V. McDaid, James.

Nı´l

Breen, Pat. McGinley, Dinny. Broughan, Thomas P. McGrath, Finian. Bruton, Richard. Mitchell, Gay. Burton, Joan. Mitchell, Olivia. Connaughton, Paul. Morgan, Arthur. Connolly, Paudge. Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda. Cowley, Jerry. Murphy, Gerard. Crawford, Seymour. Naughten, Denis. Deenihan, Jimmy. Neville, Dan. Durkan, Bernard J. O´ Caolaín, Caoimhghıń. English, Damien. O´ Snodaigh, Aengus. Ferris, Martin. O’Shea, Brian. Gilmore, Eamon. Penrose, Willie. Gregory, Tony. Ryan, Seań. Healy, Seamus. Shortall, Ro´ isıń. Higgins, Joe. Stagg, Emmet. Howlin, Brendan. Upton, Mary. Lynch, Kathleen. Wall, Jack. McCormack, Padraic.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Nı´l, Deputies Durkan and O´ Snodaigh.

Question declared carried. In page 31, line 7, to delete “6” and substitute “3”. Amendment declared lost. Question, “That the figure proposed to be Amendments Nos. 63 and 63a not moved. deleted stand”, put and declared carried.

Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 64: Amendment declared lost. 1037 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1038

Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 65: Acting Chairman: Amendment No. 66, in the name of the Minister, arises from Committee pro- In page 31, between lines 11 and 12, to insert ceedings. Amendments Nos. 67 to 71, inclusive, the following: 73, 88 to 90, inclusive, 105 and 132 are related, “(5) It shall not be lawful to take action amendments Nos. 70 and 71 are alternatives to for the primary purpose of avoiding the amendment No. 69. Amendments Nos. 66 to 71, application of this Part.”. inclusive, 73, 88 to 90, inclusive, 105 and 132 will be discussed together by agreement. This amendment, which was recommended by Threshold, was debated on Committee Stage. Its Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 66: purpose is to ensure there would be a general anti-avoidance provision in the Bill. In page 32, line 16, after “concerned” to insert the following: Mr. N. Ahern: I appreciate the general objec- “and, in the case of paragraph 4, 5 or 6 of tive behind the amendment but it is not neces- that Table, contains or is accompanied by the sary. I would not consider general avoidance pro- statement referred to in that paragraph”. visions to be the way to go. It is 2 o’clock preferable to close off specific loop- Mr. Morgan: I wish to speak in particular to holes. While the Deputy’s proposal is amendment No. 69. Some of the other amend- a prohibition, it is worded in very broad terms as ments in this group are relevant because parts of it states, “on any action for the primary purpose this section contain excuses a landlord could use of avoiding the application of this Part [4]”. It is to evict a tenant. The Minister of State’s amend- felt that the wording is too general and is in con- ment greatly improves the existing section 34. I flict with section 25. It is not necessarily the way am concerned about the table to which my to go. amendment refers in section 34 which states: I intend to propose a specific anti-avoidance measure, which involves an amendment to The dwelling is no longer suitable to the section 34, to address potential scope for abuse of accommodation needs of the tenant and of any some of the grounds for a valid termination of a persons residing with him or her having regard Part 4 tenancy. The explicit outlawing of the var- to the number of bed spaces contained in the ious avoidance devices as they come to light is dwelling and the size and composition of the the most effective way of ensuring the security of occupying household. tenant provisions operate as intended. If a family or couple living in a first or second I recognise what the Deputy is trying to do. In floor apartment have a baby, could that be future, it may be the case that both landlords and regarded as reason enough to evict them under tenants try to avoid or work around some of the the terms of that table? I fear that it could and measures being put in place simply because they therefore seek to delete this sentence. If the Mini- do not like them. Every appropriate effort has ster of State thinks otherwise I would appreciate been made to close off such opportunities as we his elaboration of the point. find them. We all know in the real world that until legislation is in place to prevent it, people Mr. N. Ahern: I oppose amendment No. 69. may be innovative and try to find other ways of The grounds listed in the table to which the doing it. All we can do is undertake to monitor Deputy refers are as recommended by the com- the situation. It is one of the specific functions of mission and accepted by the Government. Their the board, under section 152, to monitor and deletion would have a negative impact on the report back on any requirement for amending supply of accommodation available. If the legislation if there is any effort made by either Deputy is concerned about the potential for side to circumvent the rules. While I understand abuse, my amendment to section 34 could help what the Deputy is trying to do, a vague catch-all allay his concerns. Overcrowding is contrary to housing policy but that does not encompass the anti-avoidance measure is not necessarily the way situation the Deputy describes. Overcrowding to go. It is better to try and identify problems and refers to a change in the composition of the take specific measures to address them, which is household subsequent to the commencement of what we are doing. the tenancy that renders the dwelling unsuited to that household’s accommodation needs. A child Mr. Morgan: Are amendments being dis- or two of that age will not seriously affect the cussed together? accommodation needs. We could not be seen to condone serious overcrowding, which is deter- Acting Chairman: No. We are only discussing mined by rules and regulations, but one extra amendment No. 65 but the Deputy can speak on baby would not be a legitimate ground for it if he wishes. eviction. The grounds specify “bed spaces” as opposed Mr. Morgan: No. Ta´ bro´ n orm. to bedrooms so there is no question of requiring a bedroom per occupant. The number of bed Amendment put and declared lost. spaces in a dwelling is easily established. If a land- 1039 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1040

[Mr. N. Ahern.] (ii) the tenancy to which the notice lord terminates a tenancy by citing this ground, a related had not otherwise been validly tenant who considers the dwelling to be suitable terminated by virtue of the citation in is free to dispute the validity of the termination. the notice of the ground specified in The landlord would then have to prove that the paragraph 1, 2, 3 or 6 of this Table. dwelling is not designed to accommodate the number of people residing there. A landlord who 5. The landlord intends to substan- tried to do that would not necessarily succeed tially refurbish or renovate the dwell- because the dispute would go to the board and a ing or the property containing the case such as the Deputy describes would not be dwelling in a way which requires the pursued very far. If, however, several adults came dwelling to be vacated for that pur- into the dwelling and created serious over- pose (and, where planning permission crowding, that would not be condoned. is required for the carrying out of that refurbishment or renovation, that per- Amendment agreed to. mission has been obtained) and the notice of termination (the ‘notice’) Amendment No. 67 not moved. contains or is accompanied, in writing, by a statement— Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 68: (a) specifying the nature of the In page 32, to delete lines 22 to 24. intended works, and (b) that the landlord, by virtue of Question, “That the words proposed to be the notice, is required to offer to deleted stand”, put and declared carried. the tenant a tenancy of the dwelling if the contact details requirement is Amendment declared lost. complied with and the following conditions are satisfied— Amendment No. 69 not moved. (i) the dwelling becomes available for re-letting, and Acting Chairman: Amendment No. 70 cannot be moved. (ii) the tenancy to which the notice related had not otherwise Amendment No. 70 not moved. been validly terminated by virtue of the citation in the notice of the Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 71: ground specified in paragraph 1, 2, 3 or 6 of this Table. In page 33, to delete lines 10 to 22 and substitute the following: 6. The landlord intends to change the use of the dwelling or the property “family and the notice of termination (the containing the dwelling to some other ‘notice’) contains or is accompanied, in writ- use (and, where planning permission ing, by a statement— is required for that change of use, that (a) specifying— permission has been obtained) and the notice of termination (the (i) the intended occupant’s identity ‘notice’) contains or is accompanied, and (if not the landlord) his or her in writing, by a statement— relationship to the landlord, and (a) specifying the nature of the (ii) the expected duration of that intended use, and occupation, (b) that the landlord, by virtue of and the notice, is required to offer to (b) that the landlord, by virtue of the the tenant a tenancy of the dwelling notice, is required to offer to the tenant a if the contact details requirement is tenancy of the dwelling if the contact complied with and the following details requirement is complied with and conditions are satisfied— the following conditions are satisfied— (i) the dwelling becomes avail- (i) the dwelling is vacated by the per- able for re-letting within the person referred to in subparagraph (a) iod of 6 months from expiry of within the period of 6 months from the period of notice required to expiry of the period of notice required be given by the notice or, if a dis- to be given by the notice or, if a dispute pute in relation to the validity of in relation to the validity of the notice the notice was referred to the was referred to the Board under Part 6 Board under Part 6 for resol- for resolution, the final determination of ution, the final determination of the dispute, and the dispute, and 1041 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1042

(ii) the tenancy to which the of this Act, as continuous occupation by notice related had not otherwise the accepter under the one tenancy.”. been validly terminated by virtue of the citation in the notice of the Mr. McCormack: Will the Minister of State ground specified in paragraph 1, explain the purpose of this amendment and what 2 or 3 of this Table.”. it seeks to achieve?

Amendment agreed to. Mr. N. Ahern: It is a technical amendment to section 35 and is consequential on amendment Mr. McCormack: I move amendment No. 72: No. 71 which uses the term “contact details requirement”. An explanation of “contact In page 33, between lines 22 and 23, to insert details” must therefore be included in section 35 the following: on foot of the change to section 34. The term “35.—The purported termination of a ten- “contact details requirement” relates to the tenancy by a landlord under section 34 shall be ant providing within 28 days of receipt of the deemed to be null and void ab initio where notice of termination and thereafter keeping up evidence is adduced to show that the termin- to date a means by which the landlord can make ation arises from a complaint by the tenant, contact to offer him or her continuance of the or other action by the tenant made to secure previous tenancy. This applies where a landlord his or her rights as a tenant.”. has asked a tenant to leave because his or her family is moving into the house or something similar and the situation changes. In a change of Amendment put and declared lost. the landlord’s circumstances the tenants would have first refusal if the tenancy became available Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 73: again. There is an obligation on the tenant to In page 33, after line 48, to insert the keep in touch to enable him or her to avail of the following: first refusal option. “(5) In paragraphs 4(b), 5(b) and 6(b) of Amendment agreed to. the Table the reference to the contact details requirement being complied with is a refer- Acting Chairman: Amendments Nos. 74 to 76, ence to the following requirement being inclusive are related and will be taken together complied with, namely, a requirement (which by agreement. shall be specified in the statement concerned) that the former tenant notify in Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 74: writing the landlord— In page 35, line 13, to delete “A” and substi- (a) within 28 days from the service of tute “Subject to subsections (2) and (4), a”. the notice of termination concerned, or, if a dispute as to the validity of the notice There was considerable debate on Committee was referred to the Board under Part 6 for Stage about the position of family members resolution, the final determination of the where the death of the sole person who is the dispute, of the means by which he or she tenant occurs during the existence of a Part 4 ten- can be contacted by the landlord so that ancy. I agreed to try to amend the provision to the offer concerned can be made to him or give family members who are not joint tenants her, and the right to continue in a Part 4 tenancy in the case of established relationships. I am pleased to (b) as soon as practicable after any such propose amendment No. 76 which enables change occurs, of any change in the means spouses, partners and adult offspring or parents (as so notified) by which the former tenant who were residing with the tenant to elect to can be contacted for that purpose. become tenants and to continue a Part 4 tenancy (6) If an offer such as is referred to in where the death of the tenant occurs. There was paragraph 4(b), 5(b) or 6(b) of the Table is much discussion on Committee Stage about this accepted (within such reasonable period as and this amendment should not pose any consti- shall be specified for that purpose in the tutional difficulties. offer) by the former tenant concerned (the Amendment No. 74 is a technical, consequen- ‘accepter’)— tial amendment. Amendment No. 76 has been framed so as not to impact on the position regard- (a) the resulting agreement is enforce- ing leases under the Succession Acts. The posi- able by the accepter (as well as by the tion will continue to be that a deceased tenant’s offeror), and successors will inherit the rights and obligations (b) occupation by the accepter under of any lease governing the tenancy. As a general the tenancy created in favour of him or her principle, where a dwelling is being let to more on foot of that agreement shall, together than one occupant it is advisable that some or all with his or her occupation under the for- of the occupants enter into the tenancy as joint mer tenancy, be regarded, for the purposes tenants in order that their position will be unaf- 1043 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1044

[Mr. N. Ahern.] another property be regarded as a person who fected by the death of a member of the has been cohabiting for six months? The status of household. persons to which Deputy Morgan referred not- When we discussed this issue on Committee withstanding, how will cohabitation be defined? Stage, Deputies called for security for established relationships. The amendments provide for secur- Mr. Gilmore: Amendment No. 75 in my name ity in the case of established, family-type relation- reflects what I proposed on Committee Stage, ships, rather than homosexual or other relation- when I highlighted that while joint tenants were ships. I have, therefore, taken on board specific protected, the families of tenants were not. I wel- requests made on Committee Stage that the come that the Minister of State has moved some- spouses and families of tenants in established, what in the direction of my proposal. There are, family-type relationships be offered protection. however, a couple of exemptions. The definition While further changes may be made in future as does not include a sibling of a tenant. It is not regards other relationships, I am not taking other uncommon for a number of members of a family, matters on board now but doing specifically what brothers or sisters, to live together, particularly in was asked on Committee Stage. circumstances where they work in the same area. Older siblings also frequently share accom- Mr. Morgan: I welcome amendment No. 76 and modation. the security it provides for other occupants who In addition, the amendment does not provide are also family members in the event of the death for gay relationships, as the Minister of State of the person whose name is on the tenancy. I am highlighted. I am curious that he appears to have curious, however, about the Minister of State’s gone out of his way to exclude gay people from final remarks and the condition set out in the the protection of the legislation and even high- second last paragraph of amendment No. 76, lighted their exclusion. paragraph (3)(ii), which extends the Part 4 ten- The formula used in amendment No. 76 is that ancy to “a person who was not a spouse of the Part 4 protection will be extended to “a person tenant but who cohabited with the tenant as hus- who was not a spouse of the tenant but who band and wife in the dwelling for a period of at cohabited with the tenant as husband and wife for least 6 months ending on the date of the tenant’s a period of at least 6 months ending on the date death”. I am curious as to the reason the term of the tenant’s death”. I presume it should read, “cohabited with the tenant as a partner” was not “husband or wife”, as to be both would be an used, as it would have been much more in tune achievement. with society in this age of equality, or at least of attempts to achieve it. Mr. McCormack: Anything can happen. What caused the Minister or the commission to fail to recognise those who are in gay relationships? Why were they excluded? The Minister of Mr. Gilmore: If this were redrafted to read, “a State specifically stated that he omitted this person who was not a spouse of the tenant but group. Why? Will he revisit the matter? In this who cohabited with the tenant as a partner for a day of enlightenment, I am amazed such a pro- period of at least 6 months ending on the date of vision was not included. As matters stand, if one the tenant’s death”, it would cover all cir- partner in a gay relationship of either sex resides cumstances. in rented accommodation dies, the other will be forced to move out. Amid the trauma of a Mr. Morgan: Only one word is required. bereavement, the person will be discriminated against because of his or her sexual orientation. Mr. Gilmore: The Minister of State mentioned That type of thinking belongs to the 18th, not the in passing that he was not extending this protec- 21st, century. tion to gay relationships. Perhaps he will inform the House of the reason. It is strange he went out Mr. McCormack: I welcome the Minister of of his way not to so provide. State’s movement, if that is the correct word, on this matter since Committee Stage. The amend- Mr. N. Ahern: Perhaps I spoke for too long. As ment brings practice into line with that which the Deputy was returning to the House, I assume applies to local authority rented housing, where I continued to speak to allow him time to resume the sons or daughters of a tenant who dies will his seat. not be evicted and may assume the tenancy, provided they live in the house. The amendment Mr. Morgan: It is Deputy Gilmore’s fault. moves in this direction by giving the children of deceased tenants Part 4 tenancy rights. Mr. N. Ahern: If I could turn back the clock, Will the Minister of State clarify the practicalit- perhaps I would have stopped my contribution ies of establishing that persons have been sooner. cohabiting for six months? Who will adjudicate on this matter? Will it, too, go before the board? Mr. Gilmore: Was the Minister of State afraid Would a person who stays in the dwelling irregu- the other Deputies present did not share my lib- larly, comes and goes, or is also resident in eral instincts? 1045 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1046

Mr. N. Ahern: Deputies were very forceful on legislation will have precedence if somebody this issue during the long debate on it on Com- decides to pursue a case? If the Minister of State mittee Stage. We have moved a long way to is not prepared to make the amendment we seek address their concerns. The reason I may have now, will he consider examining this issue before gone beyond what was necessary in my previous the Bill is taken in the Seanad? contribution was to give the Deputy an opportunity to contribute on the issue. I was not trying Mr. Morgan: He will be slaughtered there. to make a particular point. The fundamental issue is that we should Mr. N. Ahern: No. encourage everybody to register as joint tenants because it would give them protection. The Mr. Gilmore: It is a bridge too far for the Mini- debate on this matter on Committee Stage arose ster of State. because a person who had not registered as a joint tenant encountered problems when the Amendment agreed to. registered tenant died. If people register spouses, partners, friends and others as joint tenants, they Amendment No. 75 not moved. would not be affected by a subsequent death. This is how the matter should be approached. Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 76: People in such scenarios should register their In page 35, to delete line 15 and substitute partners, friends and siblings as joint tenants as the following: they would then have protection. The debate on Committee Stage centred on families, and “(2) Where the 2 conditions specified in members of my party as well as Opposition subsection (3) are satisfied—— Members stated that the section, as drafted, was (a) subsection (1) does not apply, and not acceptable. We have tried to address that. (b) the Part 4 tenancy concerned, With regard to the other scenario, the law may accordingly, continues in being, subject to well change in next few years and if it does, the the other provisions of this Chapter, for section will be amended, but my amendments the period for which it would otherwise address the issues raised. have continued in being had the tenant concerned not died. Mr. Morgan: I am at a loss to understand why three words “husband and wife” cannot be (3) Those conditions are—— deleted. As Deputy Gilmore stated, it should (a) the dwelling, at the time of the death read “husband or wife” in any event but I do not of the tenant concerned, was occupied wish to nail anybody to the cross for a simple by— typo. If the phrase “husband and wife” was substituted by the word “partner”, everybody could (i) a spouse of the tenant, live happily ever after, irrespective of their sexual (ii) a person who was not a spouse of orientation or the type of relationship in which the tenant but who cohabited with the they are involved. Is that feasible even at this late tenant as husband and wife in the dwell- stage? I do not intend to trip up the Minister of ing for a period of at least 6 months end- State on this but inserting the word “partner” ing on the date of the tenant’s death, would reflect modern society. I commend him on amendment No. 76 because it improves the Bill (iii) a child, stepchild or foster child considerably. However, the phrase “husband and of the tenant, or a person adopted by wife” is unnecessary and unfortunate. the tenant under the Adoption Acts 1952 to 1998, being in each case aged 18 Mr. Gilmore: I would be happy to take an oral years or more, or amendment if the Minister of State is agreeable. (iv) a parent of the tenant, Mr. N. Ahern: A provision was sought to cater and for married and unmarried couples and the (b) one or more than one of the forego- amendment addresses that. The position on other ing persons elects in writing to become a relationships may change in the future but that is tenant or tenants of the dwelling. different. Other relationships can be looked after if the individuals involved get people in as joint (4) This section is subject to Chapter 6; tenants. I do not wish to make further without limiting the generality of this subsec- amendments. tion, subsections (2) and (3) are not to be read as derogating from the operation of Mr. Gilmore: How will the Minister of State Chapter 6 in circumstances where a person referred to in subsection (3) is a multiple ten- square this provision with the equality legislation, ant (within the meaning of that Chapter) of given that, under that legislation, it is illegal to the dwelling concerned. discriminate against a person on the ground of sexual orientation? He proposes to provide for (5) Irrespective of the number of instances such discrimination in the amendment. Which of the application to the same dwelling of 1047 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1048

[Mr. N. Ahern.] (5) In paragraph (b) of section 34 ‘4 subsection (2) (by reason of a series of deaths years from the commencement of the ten- of tenants), the Part 4 tenancy concerned ancy’ shall be substituted, in subparagraph shall not continue in being any longer than it (ii), for ‘4 years mentioned in section would otherwise have continued in being had 28(2)(a) in relation to the tenancy’, and the first of those deaths not occurred.”. that paragraph (b), as it is to be read and have effect for the purposes of this section, Amendment put and declared carried. is set out in paragraph 2 of the Table to this section. Amendment No. 77 not moved. (6) Section 42 applies to a further Part 4 tenancy under section 45 as it applies to a Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 78: further Part 4 tenancy under section 41. In page 35, lines 32 to 41, to delete all words TABLE from and including “being---” in line 32 down to and including “notice” in line 41 and substi- 1. A further Part 4 tenancy may not tute the following: be terminated by the landlord save in accordance with section 34 or 42 “being for the period of 4 years from its commencement”. 2. (b) irrespective”.

Question, “That the words and figures pro- Amendment agreed to. posed to be deleted stand”, put and declared carried. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Amendments Nos. 82 to 87, inclusive, are cognate and will be Amendment declared lost. taken together.

Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 79: Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 82: In page 36, to delete lines 1 to 9. In page 38, line 10, to delete “6” and substitute “3”. Question, “That the words and figures pro- We debated several similar amendments and the posed to be deleted stand”, put and declared House will be aware of the intent of these carried. amendments.

Amendment declared lost. Mr. N. Ahern: I oppose these amendments to reduce from six months to three months the Acting Chairman: Amendments Nos. 80 and 81 qualification period. We discussed similar amend- are related and may be discussed together. ments previously. I regard this as one of the core principles of the legislation. Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 80: In page 36, line 32, to delete “previous such Question, “That the figure proposed to be tenancy” and substitute “further Part 4 tenancy deleted stand”, put and declared carried. that preceded it”. These are two technical amendments, which have Amendment declared lost. been tabled on the advice of the parliamentary counsel, who is concerned there may be potential Amendment Nos. 83 to 87, inclusive, not for ambiguity in these two sections. moved.

Amendment agreed to. Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 88: In page 41, to delete lines 36 to 41 and substi- Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 81: tute the following: In page 37, lines 13 to 23, to delete all words “(c)(i) in case the ground cited is that from and including “The” in line 13 down to specified in paragraph 3 of that Table, the and including “irrespective” in line 23 and sub- thing mentioned in that paragraph is not stitute the following: done within the period specified in that “For that purpose the following modifi- paragraph, cations of sections 33 and 34 (in Chapter 3) (ii) in case the ground cited is that speci- also apply. fied in paragraph 4 of that Table, the occu- (4) In section 33 ‘section 34 or 42’ shall pation by the person concerned does not be substituted for ’section 34’, and section take place within a reasonable time after 33, as it is to be read and have effect for the service of the notice of termination or, the purposes of this section, is set out in in circumstances where such a requirement paragraph 1 of the Table to this section. arises, the landlord does not comply with 1049 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1050

the requirement to make the offer referred not comply with the requirement to make to in that paragraph, the offer referred to in that paragraph.”. (iii) in case the ground cited is that specified in paragraph 5 of that Table, the Amendment agreed to. thing mentioned in that paragraph is not done within a reasonable time after the Mr. McCormack: I move amendment No. 90a: service of the notice of termination or, in In page 45, line 28, to delete “70” and substi- circumstances where such a requirement tute “100”. arises, the landlord does not comply with the requirement to make the offer referred to in that paragraph, Mr. N. Ahern: I do not propose to accept the amendment. I inserted the 70-day maximum (iv) in case the ground cited is that notice period on Committee Stage because I did specified in paragraph 6 of that Table, the not want a long notice period to be used to thing mentioned in that paragraph is not prevent tenants from qualifying for the protection done within a reasonable time after the of Part 4. Landlords have consistently argued that service of the notice of termination or, in the qualifying period of six months was too short circumstances where such a requirement and should be increased to a year or, at a mini- arises, the landlord does not comply with mum, nine months. The longer the qualifying per- the requirement to make the offer referred iod, the more conducive it is to terminating ten- to in that paragraph.”. ancies before any rights can accrue. Giving a tenant a long period of notice of termination is a Amendment agreed to. way around a qualifying period which is perceived by landlords as too short, and in many Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 89: respects this amendment is in conflict with In page 42, line 32, after “do” to insert “or, amendments tabled earlier. as appropriate, permit to be done”. The careful choice of a 70-day limit allows a tenancy which is terminated in the first six months to last a maximum period of approxi- Amendment agreed to. mately eight months because, as originally drafted, a landlord could give notice a week or Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 90: two before the end of the six months. We In page 42, to delete lines 35 to 41 and substi- included the 70 days as a maximum period, so the tute the following: maximum now is six months and 70 days. I oppose the amendment because it would be “(c)(i) in case the ground cited is that reverting to nine-month tenancies. This is not a specified in paragraph 3 of that Table, the coincidence. We chose 70 days carefully because thing mentioned in that paragraph is not there was a loophole in the Bill as drafted. I ask done within the period of 3 months after the the Deputy to reconsider and withdraw his dispute in relation to the validity of the amendment. notice of termination is finally determined, (ii) in case the ground cited is that speci- Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. fied in paragraph 4 of that Table, the occupation by the person concerned does not An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Amendments take place within a reasonable time after the Nos. 92 to 98, inclusive, are related to amendment dispute is so determined or, in circumstances No. 91 and amendments Nos. 93 to 98, inclusive, where such a requirement arises, the land- are alternatives to amendment No. 91. Amend- lord does not comply with the requirement ments Nos. 91 to 98, inclusive, are to be taken to make the offer referred to in that together. paragraph, Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 91: (iii) in case the ground cited is that specified in paragraph 5 of that Table, the thing In page 45, lines 39 to 41, to delete all words mentioned in that paragraph is not done from and including “is” in line 39 down to and within a reasonable time after the dispute is including “Table” in line 41 and substitute the so determined or, in circumstances where following: such a requirement arises, the landlord does “is— not comply with the requirement to make the offer referred to in that paragraph, (a) in the case of a termination by the landlord, the period mentioned in column (iv) in case the ground cited is that speci- (2) of Table 1 to this section opposite the fied in paragraph 6 of that Table, the thing mention of the duration of the tenancy mentioned in that paragraph is not done concerned in column (1) of that Table, and within a reasonable time after the dispute is so determined or, in circumstances where (b) in the case of a termination by the such a requirement arises, the landlord does tenant, the period mentioned in column 1051 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1052

[Mr. N. Ahern.] I acknowledge the Minister of State has moved (2) of Table 2 to this section opposite the significantly in the direction I was seeking but 56 mention of the duration of the tenancy days is still a bit long for someone who is a tenant concerned in column (1) of that Table”. for only two years. However, I acknowledge the Minister of State listened to the Committee Stage I direct Deputies’ attention to the fact that the debate and that he has responded on Report word “year” after “3” in the second-last line of Stage. I accept his amendment. the first column of table one in amendment No. 92 should be in the plural. It is just a typo- Amendment agreed to. graphical error. Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 92: Mr. Morgan: I am glad the Minister can amend the Bill on the floor of the House when he likes. In page 46, to delete lines 1 to 9 and substi- That is good news for me. tute the following: “TABLE 1 Mr. N. Ahern: Deputies will recall a lengthy Termination by Landlord debate on Committee Stage about the application of the longer notice periods to tenants who are Duration of Tenancy Notice terminating as well as to landlords. I agreed to (1) Period look again at the notice periods applying to ten- (2) ants and am now proposing amendments Nos. 91 and 92, the effect of which is to reduce, where the Less than 6 months 28 days tenancy has lasted three or more years, the notice 6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days period applying to terminations to 56 days. In the 1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days original Bill it was the same for both. 2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days This means the maximum notice a tenant will 3 years or more but less than 4 years 84 days be required to give will be 56 days and notice 4 or more years 112 days periods will now apply once a tenancy has lasted two or more years. The first amendment replaces TABLE 2 section 66(2). We are also reversing the order of Termination by Tenant the two columns so that the tenancy duration is read first, followed by the period of notice Duration of Tenancy Notice required. As this change departs from a recom- (1) Period mendation of the commission that was based on (2) fairly detailed consideration and discussion of the appropriate notice periods that should apply to Less than 6 months 28 days both parties, it is as far as I can go in response to 6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days other proposed amendments. The 56 day 1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days maximum notice period is a substantial reduction 2 or more years 56 days from the original provision of 84 days after three ”. years and 112 after four. Amendment agreed to. Mr. Gilmore: I raised this issue on Committee Stage and the Minister of State will recall that, in Amendments Nos. 93 to 98, inclusive, not the original text of the Bill, tenants would have moved. been required to have given the same period of notice to a landlord when they proposed to leave Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 99: a house or flat and terminate the tenancy as a In page 47, line 3, to delete “7 days” and sub- landlord would have been required to give to stitute “24 hours”. them. I pointed out that the relationship between landlords and tenants is not an equal one and that I bring the attention of the House to section 68(2) seeking equal notice periods was not appropriate. which states: On a practical level, it was also inappropriate Where this section applies the period of in the original text of the Bill that a tenant would notice to be given by the notice of termin- have been required to give a landlord three ation is— months’ notice of his or her intention to leave if he or she had had a tenancy for four or more (a) 7 days, if the tenancy is being termin- years. That would have been excessive if someone ated by reason of behaviour of the landlord was moving jobs, as he or she might only have to that poses an imminent danger of death or have given an employer a month’s notice while serious injury or imminent danger to the fab- having to have given a landlord three months’ ric of the dwelling or the property containing notice. Such tenants might have been caught for the dwelling. two additional months’ rent after moving some- How on earth could anyone be expected to hang where else had they been transferred by their about for a week when there is, by reason of the employer, for example. behaviour of the landlord, an imminent danger of 1053 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1054 death? One is supposed to hang about the place equality of treatment between landlords and ten- for another week although there is imminent ants. It is a notice period of terminating a ten- danger of death. I am trying to amend this to 24 ancy. It does not mean the tenant must stay. It is hours because if my family or that of the Minister a legal term. of State or any other Deputy were in a situation Deputy McCormack asked what the section where the landlord posed an imminent danger of was all about. It specifies the shorter notice per- death or serious injury, we would want to get our iods applicable where the termination of the ten- skates on. The legislation refers to a full week. I ancy by the tenant is due to the landlord’s failure hope the Minister of State considers this again. I to comply with the tenancy obligations. Where will hear what he has to say. If it is not of concern the landlord has been notified of the breach and to him, it is to me. has failed to remedy it within a reasonable time, the notice to be given by the tenant is 28 days. Mr. N. Ahern: I do not accept the amendment. Where a breach by a landlord of a tenant’s Seven days is the minimum notice period which right to peaceful occupation involves behaviour must be given to tenants who have engaged in that poses an imminent danger of death or serious serious anti-social behaviour and I consider it injury or danger to the fabric of the dwelling, the appropriate to maintain equality of treatment. notice period is seven days. I hope the situation Accepting what the Deputy said, it may not be an about which Deputy Morgan talked will not arise equal situation but it is better in legal terms to but in legal terms, it is best to include the pro- maintain an equality. I do not know if the type of vision. If it arose, I am sure the tenant would not situations referred to by the Deputy would arise, be legally forced to stay. It is, however, a situation but if they did, the person would not be com- which could technically arise and that is why it is pelled to stay there. I recognise it might be his or provided for in the Bill. For technical, legal her main place of residence but, in legal terms, it reasons, it is recommended that it is left as it is is best to retain the equality provision. from an equality point of view.

Mr. McCormack: I am puzzled as well. If the Mr. Gilmore: I understand what the Minister tenancy is being terminated by reason of the of State is doing here. A tenant with two years’ behaviour of the landlord that poses an imminent tenancy would have to give 56 days’ notice to the danger of death or serious injury or landlord if he or she was leaving. However, if the 3 o’clock imminent danger to the fabric of the tenant believes the landlord is about to kill him building, what would the landlord or her, the tenant will only be required to give have done? Will the Minister of State give an seven days’ notice which seems fair on the face example? If the landlord was off his or her of it. Much of this Bill has come from consider- rocker, for example, and threatened to assassin- ation by the commission. Obviously, the com- ate the tenant, what does the Minister of State mission has done much work on the standards of have in mind when he wants to give seven days’ dwellings, rents and so on. I confess I have not notice in that case? come across a case of a tenant having been killed by his or her landlord nor has anybody come to Mr. Morgan: The Minister of State talked my clinics to tell me he or she thought his or her about anti-social behaviour but that is not to what landlord was going to kill him or her. People have my amendment refers. My amendment refers to told me a few other things their landlord threat- imminent danger of death or serious injury. We ened to do or that they suspected their landlord need to be clear about that. We are not talking might do, but killing them is one I have not about anti-social behaviour or some such non- come across. sense; we are talking about imminent danger of Did the commission report to the Minister of death. Is the tenant supposed to hang about this State that there is a high incidence of this of dangerous premises for a full week? which we have not been aware? Why is this pro- The Minister of State said he does not know if vision included at all? If it is for legal reasons and such a situation would arise. If there is no ques- if the Attorney General’s office has said to the tion of such a situation arising, why is this pro- Minister of State that there must be a provision vision in the Bill? It is in the Bill because we all in the Bill to provide for the eventually that a know such a situation could arise. It is a laudable landlord might threaten to kill a tenant, will he part of the Bill and I do not have a problem with share with us the logic of the learned gentlemen it other than expecting a tenant, who is in immi- who provided that advice? What type of protec- nent danger of death or serious injury, to hang tion would the tenant get by giving seven days’ about for a week to see if it might happen. I do notice as opposed to 56 days’ notice? Are land- not believe this is being realistic. This is quite dis- lords who intend to kill their tenants prone to graceful and mad. reflecting on it for more than one week? Why is it seven days’ notice? Mr. N. Ahern: I hear what the Deputy is say- Deputy Morgan’s amendment is good because ing. While it is provided for in the Bill, I do not he has highlighted one of the more daft pro- believe it will apply too often. We are talking visions in the Bill. This is a long Bill and some- about legal terms. I believe the provision was times provisions appear in the drafting which inserted at the request of Threshold to ensure have not been fully thought out. This is one which 1055 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1056

[Mr. Gilmore.] bail out and head over to a relative or neighbour needs to be pruned out of the Bill because it is a and I am sure any tenant in that situation would bit laughable. do the same. However, the provisions of the Bill mean that Mr. McCormack: It needs to be explained. We the tenant still is legally obliged to pay rent for are getting to the nub of the issue, namely, the the seven days during which he is not there. If the reason for the inclusion of this provision in the landlord is a lunatic or if the fabric of the dwelling Bill because it seems a bit foolish. Perhaps there or property containing the dwelling is in immi- is a logical reason which is escaping Members on nent danger, the poor old tenant still has to pay this side of the House. Will the Minister of State for it. Last week, in the course of a minor spat explain whether the commission or the Attorney between us, Deputy Gilmore mentioned General asked for this provision to be included in occasions when one has to roll up one’s sleeves the Bill? How did it arise? I must take it there is and get stuck in. This is mundane stuff but some logical explanation for a provision such as occasionally we come across a priceless piece this being included, namely, that somebody could like this. be threatened with death. Perhaps it may only be a figure of speech but sometimes landlords say, Mr. Gilmore: The Deputy has risen to the “I will kill that frigger if he is not out of this place occasion. in two days.” Would that be considered a threat of death? Mr. Morgan: The odd time we come across a wee gem like this, which one could not make up. Mr. N. Ahern: It came about because of the Children in a school playground could not come provisions in section 67 which states that seven up with stuff like this, yet it is in the Bill before days’ is the minimum notice period which must us. The seven-day period makes no sense. It be given to tenants who have engaged in serious makes absolute sense, however, that the anti-social behaviour. Threshold was one of the maximum period should be 24 hours. The Mini- groups which suggested that we should have an ster of State has told us that it is the law, there equivalent, balancing provision for landlords. We probably is no such case but it is being left in the may have made changes to the last section but legislation anyhow. Thank God for a bit of hum- one of the overriding principles is to try to have our and craic now and again, but if this situation equality of treatment, although accepting the ever arose it would provide neither craic nor point that it might not always be a fair or an equal humour. It would be deadly serious. It is unfortu- world. This provision was included as a balance nate that the Minister of State is not prepared to to section 67. accept a practical amendment.

Mr. Gilmore: What is the tenant supposed to Mr. N. Ahern: One can take these provisions do? Is he or she supposed to hide in the and try to twist them around. wardrobe? Mr. Morgan: I am not twisting them. Mr. McCormack: Ronnie Drew and the “Seven Drunken Nights”. Mr. N. Ahern: Should anything like that occur, the gardaı´ are there. They have a job to do and Mr. N. Ahern: We are talking about legal anything of a criminal nature will be dealt with terms. If such a situation arose and if it was as by them. bad as the examples given, nobody would force the tenant to stay. Mr. Morgan: They cannot be found when they are needed. Mr. Gilmore: The tenant would have to go on the run. Mr. N. Ahern: The provision basically gives seven days to either party to dispute the alle- Mr. N. Ahern: We are talking about a legal gations. The board is there to adjudicate so is it provision.Nobody will force the tenant to stay reasonable to expect people to do all this in one there. We are talking about a legal provision but day? The provision gives the board seven days it has come about as a provision to balance during which to adjudicate. Some people can be section 67. very inventive in thinking up situations. This provision will give people the opportunity to state Mr. Morgan: The Minister of State said the ten- that someone is making a false allegation against ant would not legally be forced to remain there. them, and the board will adjudicate quickly on I am sure that is a mighty relief to the tenant. It such claims. If such a situation arose, the truth is certainly a mighty relief to me, and I am very would quickly become obvious. Some of these glad to hear that the poor, unfortunate tenant matters, depending on how one twists them or who is in imminent danger of death or serious looks at them, may not make sense. Equally, injury would not have to remain there. I would however, if there was a false allegation, the pro- 1057 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1058 vision gives people seven days in which to make first four weeks. A longer period would, there- a complaint to the board. In that way the board fore, be fair and reasonable. I do not think land- can decide whether the complaint is valid or lords could complain overly about it. should be set aside. Mr. N. Ahern: I do not consider that the Mr. Gilmore: If the tenant was still alive after amendment is appropriate. The Deputy is speak- seven days, would that be proof that it was a ing about a tenancy that has just been completed false allegation? or may have just started. Section 76 provides that a dispute about the rent applying to a terminated An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: This is getting tenancy may not be referred to the board more into a Committee Stage type of discussion. than four weeks after the tenancy has ended. I understand the situation where somebody has Mr. Morgan: For the safety of tenants I am just moved in and perhaps was not too wise. sorely tempted to put the amendment to a vote, but I will not. I will let it go. Mr. Morgan: It could end over the dispute.

Mr. McCormack: Shoot the messenger. Mr. N. Ahern: Yes, but the time to have an argument about the rent is when one is in the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. tenancy. Perhaps the Deputy has chosen the An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Amendment No. wrong section for his amendment. He is talking 101 is an alternative to amendment No. 100, so about extending the period in which to dispute both may be discussed together by agreement. the rent after the tenancy has ended, but that does not make sense. It would be foolish to end Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 100: up with a Bill that stated the period for referring a dispute over rent was only 28 days in the case In page 51, line 13, to delete “28” and substi- of an existing, ongoing tenancy, but was 56 or 60 tute “60”. days for a tenancy that had ended. That sounds This amendment is in respect of a dispute over almost as strange as the previous amendment we the amount of rent that has been paid. The tenant discussed. Section 76 concerns tenancies that will be required to go to the board within 28 days have ended. I know that disputes may arise about of the termination of the tenancy. I propose that rent, but the time to sort them out is during the that period should be extended to 60 days tenancy or within 28 days of it ending. I do not because 28 days is a bit tight. Sometimes, a tenant see any need to extend that period for a tenancy may consult members of his or her family, get that has ended. The section does not refer to advice, and may require time to make up his or ongoing tenancies. her mind. I consider that 60 days is a more reasonable period. Mr. Morgan: In page 51, line 10, section 2 refers to cases in which a tenancy has been Mr. Morgan: Amendment No. 101 seeks to terminated and there is a dispute as to the extend the period within which a tenant may amount of rent. That is exactly what my amend- appeal to the board, from 28 to 56 days in cases ment addresses. Is the Minister of State confused where there is a dispute over the amount of any about that because I did not understand his com- rent that had been agreed to, or paid, by the for- ments? He did not appear to understand the mer tenant. In such cases, the unfortunate tenant intent of my amendment because it is in the cases may well be so occupied trying to secure accom- to which I referred — when a tenancy has termin- modation for his or her family that he or she may ated and the tenant is trying to find other accom- not have an opportunity within the 28-day period modation or is in temporary accommodation to make a submission to the board. My amend- pending another long-term tenancy — that this ment, therefore, seeks to increase the period to issue arises. The former tenant may be under 56 days. I chose to double the 28-day period pro- extreme pressure and may not have time to make vided for in the Bill, although I do not disagree a submission to the board in such circumstances. with Deputy Gilmore about the four additional That is why I am seeking a longer term because days, which are neither here not there once it gets it is very reasonable and straightforward. up to that sort of period. The 28-day period is a big deal, however, because it might not be long Mr. N. Ahern: Why would such people not enough. One can imagine someone being in dis- have done this months earlier, when they were pute and having to get the matter sorted out. tenants? During a row with the landlord he or she may be trying to find alternative accommodation under Mr. Morgan: Perhaps because the row is about all sorts of pressure, including moving furniture. the amount of money the landlord retained. Appealing to the board under such circumstances could be well down the list of priorities in that Mr. N. Ahern: That is a different issue. 1059 Residential Tenancies Bill 2003: 1 July 2004. Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage 1060

Mr. Morgan: Is it? I do not think so. Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 103: Question, “That the figure proposed to be In page 51, line 34, to delete “all”. deleted stand”, put and declared carried.

Amendment declared lost. Question, “That the words proposed to be deleted stand”, put and declared carried. Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 101: Amendment declared lost. In page 51, line 13, to delete “28” and substitute “56”. Mr. Gilmore: I move amendment No. 104: I will concede the four days to Deputy Gilmore In page 52, between lines 3 and 4, to insert and will withdraw the amendment. the following: Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. “(a) whether the rent at the commencement of a tenancy was or was not greater Mr. McCormack: I move amendment No. 102: than the market rent,”. In page 51, between lines 22 and 23, to insert We are dealing with section 78, which lists the the following: various matters that may be referred to and “77.—Either or both parties to an existing examined by the board for resolution. One of the or terminated licence to occupy a dwelling issues which should be entitled to be referred to may, individually or jointly, as appropriate, the board is whether the rent, at the commence- refer to the Board a licence agreement relat- ment of the tenancy, was or was not greater than ing to a dwelling so that the Board may the market rent. A tenant can go to the board if determine whether— he or she feels that the current rent is not the market rate and similarly a landlord can go to the (a) it is a licence, or board if he or she wants an increase in rent. (b) determine whether it is a device by In all this, the point of reference is the market which the landlord was seeking to deny the rent. However, because of the manner in which tenant of his or her rights under this Act.”. this Bill is being commenced and because the rights established in this Bill will not come into I would like to hear the Minister of State’s operation until it has been commenced by the response to the amendment. Minister, many tenants currently in rented accommodation may well want to dispute that the Mr. N. Ahern: As I indicated in the course of rent set at the beginning of their tenancy was not the Committee Stage debate, I do not propose the market rent in the first place. It should be to accept this amendment on the basis that it is unnecessary. The provisions in section 84 will possible to have that issue examined by the ensure that decisions made by the board to reject board. dispute referrals will have to follow a rigorous analysis of their applicability to this legislation. Mr. N. Ahern: I thought we discussed this matter on Committee Stage and inserted it at that Mr. McCormack: Is the licence agreement stage. Paragraph (b) of subsection (1), which was referred to here a licence or can the board deter- amended on Committee Stage, clarifies that the mine that it was only a device used by the land- amount that ought to be set as the initial rent is lord hoping he or she could deny the tenants their a matter which may be the subject of a dispute to rights? Is it for the board to define that issue? the board. I thought that clarified the point the Deputy made at that stage. Mr. N. Ahern: There is well-established case law in the area of licensing versus tenancy Mr. Gilmore: I stand corrected. We did indeed arrangements and the board will be required to do so and I apologise for taking up the time of the have regard to this law when deciding whether to House on an amendment which was dealt with on accept a dispute referral. Work currently being Committee Stage. undertaken by the Law Reform Commission to review landlord and tenant law may also have a Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. bearing on this matter. If the letting has the characteristic of a tenancy, unless one of the Mr. N. Ahern: I move amendment No. 105: exclusions in section 3 applies, the letting will In page 52, after line 48, to insert the come within the scope of the Bill, regardless of following: what the landlord may seek to call it. This will be the case and it requires no amendment. “(p) an allegation that an agreement referred to in section 35(6) has not been com- Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. plied with,”. 1061 Priority 1 July 2004. Questions 1062

Amendment agreed to. while maintaining a balance. I pay tribute to the officials in the Department for the work they Mr. Morgan: I move amendment No. 106: have done, some of whom have been involved in In page 53, line 23, to delete “28” and substi- it for many years and have put a significant part tute “56”. of their life into this issue from the time of the commission. This is about the period of time that ought to be given in disputes for resolution or appeal. A per- Question put and agreed to. iod of 28 days is not nearly enough time for what might be a major dispute between the landlord and the tenant. In such circumstances, one could Ceisteanna — Questions. expect communication and attempts at reconciliation between the parties, but after 28 days have Priority Questions. gone by, without a submission being made to the board, the whole issue falls. A longer period ———— would be more useful. Abbey Theatre. Mr. N. Ahern: I am opposed to this amend- 1. Mr. Deenihan asked the Minister for Arts, ment. It does not make sense. A period of 28 days Sport and Tourism if a survey is being carried out is more than ample time in which to take a on the Carlton site by the Office of Public Works decision to refer a dispute to the board about the regarding its suitability for development as a new validity of a termination notice which has been location for the Abbey Theatre; if so, when such received. Apart from the seven day notice period, a survey will be completed; if such a survey shows to which we referred earlier, for serious anti- that the site is not suitable for development, when social behaviour, 28 days is the minimum notice he will be in a position to examine other possible period specified in Part 5 of the Bill. It would not venues; and if he will make a statement on the make much sense for dispute referrals about the matter. [19623/04] validity of terminations to come before the board after the notice period had expired and the ten- Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. ancy is over. There is always a danger over a O’Donoghue): The resolution of the issues sur- longer period that a person will forget to take the rounding the redevelopment of the National necessary action. In all walks of life, people leave Theatre, are complex. As I have previously everything to the last moment. The time to dis- informed the House, the Government authorised pute an issue is when one is within that period of me last year to invite expressions of interest by notice in order that something can be done about way of public invitation from the private sector it. If one leaves it until the period is over, it does in participating, on the basis of a public private not fully add up. partnership, in the capital redevelopment of the Abbey Theatre in and/or around the vicinity of Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. the site of the existing theatre. My Department, with the Department of Fin- An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: As it is now 3.30 ance and the Office of Public Works, has been p.m., I am required to put the following question working to implement that decision. As An in accordance with an order of the Da´il of this Agreed Programme for Government commits the day: “That amendment No. 168 and the amend- Government to ensuring the development of the ments set down by the Minister for the Envir- Abbey, I maintain regular contact with all of the onment, Heritage and Local Government and not parties involved and ensure that the Government disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, that is kept fully abreast of all developments. I circu- Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is lated my last progress report to my colleagues at hereby passed.” this week’s Cabinet meeting at which Ministers Mr. N. Ahern: I advise Deputies of two further again affirmed their support for the redevelop- typographical errors in amendments Nos. 109 ment project. and 176. It has been accepted that at whatever location is eventually selected for the Abbey, the new An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Perhaps the Mini- building must satisfy the following requirements ster of State would give a note to the Clerk. if it is to be compatible with the status, profile and functions of a national theatre: to be a signa- Mr. N. Ahern: The Chair mentioned that we ture development, representative of a national are accepting amendment No. 168. I thank all the theatre in the 21st century; to be in an appropri- Deputies, particularly party spokespersons, for ate civic setting and form part of the overall their work and contributions on the various urban regeneration represented by the O’Connell Stages. Hopefully this will be good and valuable Street integrated area plan and the north-east legislation for the tenants we are trying to serve inner city plan; it must have three significant 1063 Priority 1 July 2004. Questions 1064

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] timescale that would be involved in acquiring enlarged auditoria for the Abbey, the Peacock properties there. The problem with the Carlton and a third multipurpose space, a dedicated edu- Cinema site is that it is embroiled in legal issues cation and outreach facility, a publicly accessible at present and it is not known when these issues archive, restaurant-bar, improved public areas, will be resolved. In addition, it is not known if our disabled access for audiences and artists, and best proposal would be attractive to the developer. In practice theatre production facilities. those circumstances the Office of Public Works For the Abbey and Peacock to function will be examining alternative sites in the city. efficiently, effectively and without compromise, When the Office of Public Works has reported their basic functioning must not depend on move- back to me it is my intention to go back to the ment of goods and people by mechanical lift. In Government with the alternatives put forward. essence this means that the stages of both the At this point I do not intend to rule in or rule Abbey and Peacock theatres must be positioned out any site for the theatre except to say that all at ground level. In addition, both theatres must the options, which the Office of Public Works put have easy access, also at the same level, to the forward will be carefully considered. I am anxious scenery store and the prop store. It is agreed that the theatre would be located in the city and between the management of the Abbey and the that we would be in a position to map the way OPW that there is a requirement for a ground forward this year given that it is the centenary of floor footprint that is considerably larger than the theatre. now exists. The larger ground footprint is non- negotiable if the redevelopment is to achieve its Mr. Deenihan: Will the Minister agree the objectives. timescale is important and that this must not I am advised that redevelopment of the Abbey become a long running saga like the National Sta- at its existing location would entail the acquisition dium. Will the Minister clarify what timescale he of adjacent properties — a process which would envisages for the Office of Public Works to report be likely to prove very costly and problematic definitively on its preferred site to house the regarding timescale. Accordingly, my Depart- Abbey Theatre? ment and the OPW are now actively considering other possible alternative locations for the Mr. O’Donoghue: I am anxious that we should redevelopment. This exercise will include an be in a position to make some announcement in assessment of the suitability and availability of this the centenary year of the Abbey. Therefore, the Carlton Cinema site for this purpose. The it is important that the Office of Public Works Deputy will be aware of the legal issues arising in would come back to us at the earliest possible connection with that particular site. opportunity so that I can outline the way forward. I am currently awaiting a report from the OPW I am anxious, as is the Deputy, to ensure we have some news on where we are going with the thea- on these issues and assure the Deputy that I tre this year. remain determined to have decisions taken on the redevelopment of the Abbey Theatre in this its centenary year. Film Industry Development. 2. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Arts, Sport Mr. Deenihan: Given that the centenary of the and Tourism; his views on whether high pro- Abbey is on 27 December decision time is rapidly duction costs are a deterrent to foreign filmmak- approaching. I am pleased the Minister has, more ers coming here to make their films; the con- or less, today given a definitive response on the sequences of this for the film industry here; and suitability of the present Abbey Theatre site and if he will make a statement on the matter. has ruled it out and also that he took my advice [19826/04] on getting the Office of Public Works to carry out 4. Mr. Deenihan asked the Minister for Arts, an assessment of the Carlton Cinema site. In the Sport and Tourism his views on recent statements event of the Carlton Cinema site not being suit- from leading film producers, carried in media able the Minister indicated that other sites are reports in recent weeks, that Ireland is losing its being looked at as well. Will he advise the House attractiveness to international film production ´ of those sites? Colaiste Mhuire in Parnell Square companies due to increased costs and to and Grangegorman were mentioned. Will the increased competition abroad; the measures he Minister confirm if these sites are being actively will take to restore Ireland’s competitiveness as a assessed as regards their suitability? I am sure the destination for film production; and if he will Minister will agree it is important that a con- make a statement on the matter. [19622/04] clusion be reached on a new site for the Abbey Theatre as soon as possible and preferably before Mr. O’Donoghue: I propose to take Questions 27 December 2004. Nos. 2 and 4 together. The market for international film finance is Mr. O’Donoghue: The difficulty, as outlined, is global and extremely mobile, with financiers care- that there is a problem in regard to the cost of fully weighing up what competing locations have acquisition of properties adjacent to the present to offer. Final decisions are usually based on a Abbey Theatre. There is also the question of the mix of factors rather than on one particular 1065 Priority 1 July 2004. Questions 1066 factor. In this context, I am aware of the concerns dollar. I have no control over fluctuations on the expressed by the Irish film industry about the money markets. competitive implications of wage costs that are The Irish Film Board provides a considerable high compared to some competing locations and level of assistance to incoming producers as well of the current euro-US dollar exchange rate. as to the indigenous film industry. Its record is However, I am also aware of the positives that very strong. On occasion, I meet the chairman of Ireland offers, including good locations, qualified the board to discuss the future and I have over and experienced personnel, the fact that English the last year and more been in regular contact is widely spoken, and a positive approach to the with people involved in the industry generally industry by Government. with a view to advancing the cause of Irish film. I am satisfied that the Government has met its The best news the industry has received in many responsibilities regarding maintaining the attract- years was the extension of the section 481 relief iveness of Ireland as a film location. In particular, into 2008 and the increase of the cap to \15 mill- in his last budget speech the Minister for Finance, ion. These measures are regarded by the industry Deputy McCreevy, announced that the section as the most important lift it has received in a very 481 tax incentive, which gives tax breaks to those long time. The industry anticipates and I am con- investing in Irish film production, will continue fident that the benefits will be seen in the near until at least 2008, with the amount that can be future. raised increasing from \10.48 million to \15 million from 2005. Mr. Deenihan: I am sure the Minister will agree The Irish Film Board is charged with the there is cause for serious concern and action. development of the Irish film industry and with Surely, the fact that no feature film has been shot marketing Ireland as a location for international in Ireland in the first six months of 2004 makes productions. The board provides a range of sup- its own statement. There must be a reason for this ports and assistance to producers and is indepen- circumstance. Neil Jordan and Morgan dent of Government in day-to-day terms. I was O’Sullivan, two of our most eminent film pro- able to provide an increase of 10% in the board’s ducers, have said that Ireland is no longer an funding in 2004. It is up to the industry to address attractive location in which to make films which those factors within its control that are con- highlights the need for corrective action. sidered to render Ireland less attractive for film Is the Minister aware that New Zealand, Hun- production. gary and the Isle of Man have improved upon Ireland’s incentives? The global film industry is Mr. Wall: The newspaper reports that Ireland becoming more competitive while Ireland is is being shunned as a production base for major being matched by countries many of which have films and that costs have rocketed for those films, raised the ante to compete for film productions. which are in production, are of deep concern to It is a serious scenario. us all. Has the Minister had a meeting with the When Deputy de Valera was Minister, she Irish Film Board on this matter? What action has established the Kilkenny group which reported in the Minister’s Department taken to assure major 1999. Developments in film industry work prac- film industry players that the section 481 tax tices and the impact of the rate of exchange con- incentive has been restored and that we want stitute only a small part of the problem. Will the major productions to come here? “Saving Private Minister revisit the report and perhaps reconvene Ryan”, “Braveheart” and films of that scale have the group, which previously suggested major sol- been of major benefit to the economy and to utions to review events in the film industry over employment levels within the industry and among the last five years? actors and actresses. While the Minister mentioned section 481, a What meetings have taken place, what action significant problem has been the uncertainty gen- has the Department taken since the budget and erated around it over the last year. The wrong what has the Irish Film Board done since it was signals were sent to the film industry. While the given the boost for which the Minister must be section has been restored, nothing more has hap- congratulated? What has been done to reverse pened to incentivise the Irish film industry. We the shunning of Ireland by the major movie giants cannot take this serious difficulty lightly. I under- and production teams? stand the only major film which will be shot in Ireland this year is the “The Honeymooners” Mr. O’Donoghue: It is not correct to say the which compares poorly with the level of pro- Irish film industry is being shunned. Ireland is an duction of a few years ago. extremely attractive location for incoming film producers and productions. As Deputy Wall Mr. O’Donoghue: I disagree with Deputy pointed out, Ireland has hosted some serious and Deenihan. The outlook for the Irish film industry major films in recent years and I anticipate that is bright. The extension of the section 481 relief we will do the same in the not-too-distant future. to 2008 will massively encourage incoming pro- While wage costs appear to be a difficulty, the ducers. The definite incentive of the increase in matter must be dealt with by the industry itself. the amount which can be raised under the relief There is very little one can do about exchange from \10.48 million to \15 million from the start rates and the value of the euro against the US of 2005 could not send a stronger signal to the 1067 Priority 1 July 2004. Questions 1068

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] not aware have come into play and have not been international film community about Ireland’s fully considered by the Minister. intention to develop the industry and our desire to attract inward investment. Mr. O’Donoghue: I will not speak of a demise We can only control those things, which are because I do not believe there is one. I would like under our remit and maintain the highest stan- to watch how the new incentive develops over the dards in those areas in which we have power. We coming year. The current section 481 incentive is can expect the industry to go from strength to progressive and competitive. I spoke with people strength. While it is true that concern was from the Disney organisation during the course expressed about wage costs and the exchange rate of discussions on the renewal of section 481. They between the euro and the US dollar, these are impressed on me the need to renew the incentive factors over which I have little or no control, and to provide certainty. I have done that by unfortunately. Through section 481, we have extending the provision until 2008 and by increas- incentivised like no other Government in the his- ing the cap on the amount that can be raised. Let tory of the State. us see how this progresses. I expect the Deputy will find it progressive and that we will see a con- Mr. Wall: Given its importance to the film siderable number of major films made in Ireland industry, will the Minister lead a trade mission to in the not too distant future. the USA in conjunction with the Irish Film Board to talk to the heavy hitters such as Disney to Tourism Industry. create interest in Ireland and attract the major 3. Mr. Gormley asked the Minister for Arts, players? We have a workforce which is as knowl- Sport and Tourism his views on whether the April edgeable as any in the world when it comes to 2004 overseas travel figures from the Central producing major films, and actors and actresses Statistics Office suggest that a gap is widening who are well able to support international stars. between persons who are leaving here to go We also have the tax incentives which seem to abroad when compared with the relatively make the difference. Now is the time to put smaller increase in visitors to Ireland; the remedy Ireland back in the film market. What is being he will put in place to address the issue; and if he done to communicate with the heavy hitters and will make a statement on the matter. [19926/04] ensure that Ireland is put back in its rightful place Mr. O’Donoghue: Internationally, more people among the main players in film production? are taking holidays and doing so more often. Over the past ten years or so, there has been Mr. O’Donoghue: Now that the Irish film extraordinary growth in the short urban break industry has been placed on a sound footing with market as an international phenomenon. Irish the renewal of section 481 up to 2008 and the people are not immune from these trends. increase in the cap on the amount that can be \ \ Owing to the phenomenal increase in Irish raised from 10.84 million to 15 million from the prosperity in recent years, the increased avail- start of 2005, it is appropriate that we seek to ability of competitive access to foreign markets market Ireland on whatever stage we can. In the and the increasing number of those who own for- circumstances, I intend to try to organise a trade eign holiday homes, Irish people are travelling mission to the western side of the United States abroad in greater numbers and with greater fre- of America with a view to promoting Ireland as quency. I do not necessarily regard this as a nega- a destination for film production. I am anxious to tive phenomenon because, looked at globally, we meet the larger production companies to assess find that the reverse side of the coin is that an their interest in coming here. I will take up increasing number of overseas visitors are visit- Deputy Wall’s suggestion and try to move on it ing Ireland. soon. The latest CSO visitor figures for 2004 show Ireland continuing to perform strongly in a highly Mr. Deenihan: I suggest the Minister speak to competitive international market. The number of the Disney organisation during his visit as it has overseas visitors to Ireland in the first four expressed grave concern about the attitude it months of this year increased by more than 7% found within the Irish industry recently. I remind compared with last year. The latest Revenue fig- the Minister that Ardmore is empty at present ures for 2004 are also positive, with overseas visi- and the only film of any significance that will be tor earnings increasing by more than 5% in the made here this year is “The Honeymooners”. first quarter of this year compared with 2003. Other countries are successfully upping the ante These early results are in line with the growth and it is time for the Government to review what targets set by Tourism Ireland and Fa´ilte Ireland others are doing in the international film market. for the year as a whole and, in relative terms, Will the Minister revisit the Kilkenny report compare favourably to the performance of some and its recommendations? Will he reconvene that of our competitor destinations. group and seek its advice on the situation and a The overall number of inbound visitors con- way forward? Section 481 is not the reason for tinues to exceed that of outbound visitors. That the demise of our film industry, although it con- said, it is apparent from CSO figures in the recent tributed to it. Other factors of which people are past that Irish visitors abroad spend, in total, mar- 1069 Priority 1 July 2004. Questions 1070 ginally more than overseas visitors spend here. times called. People feel that public transport, That increase in outward spend is because more eating out, car hire, etc. do not provide value for Irish people go abroad more often. money. Is that a factor and is the tourism policy To get a more accurate picture of trends across review group examining the issue? The issue tourism, the tourism and travel survey to which arises both anecdotally and in actual responses the Deputy refers needs to be considered in con- from those who holiday here. junction with the CSO’s household travel survey. Has the Minister information as to why Irish The agency’s tourism and travel survey does not, people who go abroad spend more when abroad? for instance, include domestic tourism. The latest With regard to the 14% increase in expenditure available figures from the household travel sur- on domestic trips, has he qualitative data on what vey, covering 2003, show expenditure by Irish domestic tourists find attractive about staying at people on domestic trips growing by 14% to \971 home? What is it they like about Ireland as a million, compared with 4% growth in expenditure holiday destination? by Irish people on international trips. Even making allowances for inflation, this represents a sig- Mr. O’Donoghue: It is encouraging that the nificant increase in expenditure. While Irish domestic market has increased so significantly. people may now spend more on international The 14% increase is remarkable given the current trips, the CSO survey clearly indicates that dom- level of competition on the international market. estic tourism is benefiting disproportionately We have stressed the issue of value for money from the increased spending power of the Irish over the past two years and this has paid divid- population. ends. For example, the Irish restaurant associ- Taking the two CSO surveys together, it would ation introduced a very successful value for appear that our tourism sector is winning market money menu for visitors. The Irish car rental share, both at home and internationally, in the market is as competitive as one will find any- face of the stiffest competition ever in this sector. where and value for money offers are provided In that context, we need to maintain our focus, by almost all our major outlets and many of our get the product right, get the message out, give medium and smaller outlets. All this is extremely real value for money and ensure we continue to encouraging. This is reflected in the figures. The deliver on the promise. It is important for the fact that the domestic market increased by 14.3% Irish industry to realise that the more frequently is a tribute to the response of the industry, and I Irish people travel abroad, especially within the hope this response continues — it is important eurozone, the more conscious they will be of rela- that it does. tive value for money. It is essential our industry With regard to people who travel abroad on continues to focus on increasing its competi- holiday, the Irish economy has improved in leaps tiveness. and bounds in recent years, people have more Looking at 2004, the two tourism agencies, disposable income and, as a con- Tourism Ireland and Fa´ilte Ireland, are rolling 4 o’clock sequence, more people take holidays out a comprehensive range of programmes and abroad. The figures in this regard activities in conjunction with the industry and were up 4%, but we must take that figure against overseas trade to build on the momentum gener- the 14% plus increase in the domestic tourism ated to date and achieve their ambitious targets market, which is, to say the least, most of more than 4% visitor growth. Their pro- encouraging. grammes are supported by an unprecedented The implementation group, which is overseeing level of Exchequer investment in tourism services the implementation of the policy review group, is through my Department, especially for marketing progressing with its work. It is due to report to purposes, totalling well over \110 million this me in August of this year. That report should be year. interesting and should give us further indicators. As for the medium to long-term future of the If there is further information on data or statistics sector, significant progress is being made in Deputy Gormley requires, I will be only too advancing the recommendations of the report of pleased to communicate them to him. the tourism policy review group through the tourism policy implementation group chaired by Mr. Mr. Gormley: The Minister touched on two John Travers. The ultimate goal is to ensure that areas, eating out and car hire, and said services in Ireland’s competitive position is optimised to those areas are improving. However, there is one take full advantage of the expected upturn in area where there has not been an improvement, international tourism over the next decade. namely, that of public transport. Anyone who has travelled by train to Cork or elsewhere will have Mr. Gormley: I thank the Minister for his seen tourists on the train and, more likely than interesting reply. Does the Minister agree that not, it will have been packed. The standard of our many Irish people, some of whom may have for- public transport is appalling and it gives a poor eign holiday homes — perhaps the Minister will image of this country. Is this an issue about which let us know how many, if he has the figures — the Minister is concerned? choose to holiday abroad because they feel they get better value for money? It is the same old Mr. O’Donoghue: In regard to public transport, story of this being “rip-off Ireland”, as it is some- in recent days in Dublin in particular the avail- 1071 Other 1 July 2004. Questions 1072

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] experience. This is an area the Minister ought to ability of public transport has increased beyond examine if we are to attract growing numbers to recognition, something everyone will greatly wel- this country. May I have a more detailed response come. There is further room for improvement in from the Minister on this issue? our public transport system, of that there is no question. When I spoke about 14% growth, I was Mr. O’Donoghue: The replies to Deputy referring to expenditure. Gormley’s interesting questions are more appropriate to the Minister for Transport. In general Question No. 4 answered with Question terms, the question of access to the regions is of No. 2. immense importance, in particular if we are to see a greater degree of regionalisation of the tourism Other Questions. industry. In that context, improving the service, the rolling stock and rail links is of immense ———— importance. We have seen benefits from the regional airports and their development is provid- Tourism Industry. ing rich dividends to the regions. For example, developments at Knock, Galway, Kerry and other 5. Mr. Cuffe asked the Minister for Arts, Sport airports are proving to be extremely beneficial. and Tourism his views on whether the \89 million However, about 350,000 cars are rented every net outflow of expenditure in the January to year by visitors to this country. Therefore, the March 2004 travel period represents a worrying private car market should not be underestimated trend for the Irish tourism sector in view of the in any way. However, I take the Deputy’s point huge coverage given to Ireland by the EU Presi- that it is important we continue to improve pub- dency; and the steps that are being taken to lic transport. ensure that this outflow does not increase further. [19748/04] Mr. Deenihan: To some extent Question No. 33. Mr. Boyle asked the Minister for Arts, 10 is related to these questions. Ireland received Sport and Tourism his views on whether the April considerable exposure, as indicated in Question 2004 overseas travel figures from the Central No. 5, during our Presidency of the EU, but that Statistics Office suggest that a gap is widening does not seem to be having a positive impact on between persons who are leaving Ireland to go our tourism industry. What initiatives to address abroad when compared with the relatively this did the Minister raise with his European smaller increase in visitors to Ireland; and the counterparts during our Presidency? Is the Mini- remedy he will put in place to address the ster at liberty to inform us of what was discussed issue. [19746/04] or to outline how our Presidency of the Union during the past six months benefited Irish Mr. O’Donoghue: I propose to take Questions tourism? Nos. 5 and 33 together. I refer Deputies Boyle and Cuffe to my earlier Mr. O’Donoghue: There is a detailed question, answer to Question No. 3, which addressed the Question No. 10, on this matter which I think we same topic. will reach. It might be fairer and more expansive for the Deputy if we concentrated on this issue at Mr. Gormley: The Minister answered two that point. questions. In his reply to my last question, he referred to the issue of public transport. I would Acting Chairman (Mr. Carey): Is the Deputy like to go into this in more detail. When tourists prepared to wait until we reach that question? arrive here is it not the case that many of them do not opt for car hire but depend on public Mr. Deenihan: Yes, that is fair enough. transport to travel around the country? This applies not only to overseas tourists but to those National Lottery Funding. of us who want to travel around Ireland and have 6. Mr. Connolly asked the Minister for Arts, to do so on public transport. The state of our pub- Sport and Tourism the annual levels of expendi- lic transport is a major factor. Will the Minister ture in counties Cavan and Monaghan, respect- agree that investing in public transport is not only ively, from the national lottery; the levels of lot- good for the country in terms of facilitating pro- tery-funded grant aid disbursed annually; the per decentralisation as opposed to relocation, but amounts of this funding returned to counties it is also important for our tourism market? Cavan and Monaghan; and if he will make a state- Will the Minister stress to the Minister for ment on the matter. [19719/04] Tourism the importance of the need to get this right? If the Minister travels abroad to Italy or Mr. O’Donoghue: In regard to the disburse- France, he will find state-of-the-art transport ser- ment of national lottery funding, my Department vices. He could board a train and travel from A administers the lottery-funded sports capital pro- to B relatively quickly, on time and in comfort, gramme, which provides facilities for sporting and yet in this country that is not possible. If one tries for voluntary and community organisations at to have a meal on one of our trains, it is an awful local, regional and national level throughout the 1073 Other 1 July 2004. Questions 1074 country. The programme is advertised on an addition to this, my colleague, the Minister for annual basis. Community Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy I am providing in tabular format grant allo- O´ Cuı´v, recently announced top-up funding to cations since 1988 to counties Cavan and Mon- some of those projects which I funded under the aghan under the programme. The vast majority 2004 sports capital programme, specifically those ´ of the overall funding since its inception has been located in CLAR areas and those in RAPID areas which were endorsed by their local RAPID allocated since 1999 and, as I relayed to the \ Deputy in my reply to his Priority Question No. area implementation teams. A further 108,000 has been allocated to Cavan and \24,000 to Mon- 31 on 25 May last, the allocations to Cavan and aghan through these top-ups. Monaghan are in line with what those counties Overall, I am satisfied that counties Cavan and might expect if funding were strictly on a per cap- Monaghan have been treated fairly and ita basis. adequately in the levels of national lottery fund- In regard to the 2004 sports capital programme, ing disbursed through the sports capital pro- on 7 May last I announced funding allocations gramme, funding which has made a major differ- totalling \50.8 million to 717 projects, including ence to the range and quality of the sports \925,000 to 14 projects in County Cavan and facilities in those counties and in every other \996,000 to 17 projects in County Monaghan. In county in Ireland.

Sports Capital Programme Allocations to Cavan and Monaghan 1988-2004

1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997

Cavan 118,086 0 6,349 12,697 0 0 347,908 25,395 27,934 168,875 Monaghan 222,204 330,132 12,697 76,184 0 0 326,323 24,125 29,204 241,250

Total 21,379,849 1,737,002 2,161,094 1,943,829 1,676,689 5,721,440 13,963,310 3,685,414 9,084,976 11,829,514

1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Total

Cavan 121,895 333,941 452,027 591,698 691,200 580,000 925,000 3,478,005 Monaghan 83,803 248,869 502,181 615,823 1,233,000 485,000 996,000 4,430,795

Total 7,554,942 25,382,064 45,496,874 56,179,561 78,779,400 53,352,500 50,800,000 390,728,458

that the sports capital programme has been kind Mr. Deenihan: Does the Minister agree that to counties Cavan and Monaghan. I have visited questions like this will continue to appear on the both counties on a number of occasions to see Order Paper until an audit is carried out of all developments there which are progressing well. facilities throughout the country to determine the I recently sanctioned the construction of a new need and identify the black spots to ensure that swimming pool in Monaghan town. My Depart- national lottery funding can be targeted at those ment was also responsible for sanctioning funds areas of greatest need? As a Kerry person, I under the ACCESS programme for an arts centre recognise and continue to welcome the increased in Carrickmacross. There have been a number of allocations to the county since the Minister took other developments in Cavan and Monaghan office. Prior to that, Donegal benefited consider- under the aegis of my Department. It must be ably. I am sure we understand that from the per- said that my Department does not have a large spective of Deputies Connolly and others it budget but, in so far as I was in a position to assist appears that counties like Cavan and Monaghan Cavan and Monaghan, I certainly did so. are not getting a fair share of such funding. There On the audit of national lottery funding, I am is a later question on a national audit. When does satisfied to proceed with it where the sports capi- the Minister consider a national audit will com- tal programme is concerned. In that respect, an mence? Will it commence in the near future? expenditure review is under way. I hope this will When Fine Gael gets back into power with our be completed shortly and that we will then pro- Labour colleagues, we will be very much directed ceed to carry out the audit and put in place a and influenced by the findings of such a national strategic plan to map out the way forward. I sup- audit and we will invest such money in areas of pose Deputy Deenihan would not mind calling greatest need and where there is a lack of facili- for a national audit of expenditure in every ties. That is the way to go in the future. Department.

Mr. O’Donoghue: Counties Cavan and Mon- Mr. Deenihan: Absolutely. aghan have certainly not been ignored by the Government. I suppose it is easy to zone in on Mr. Wall: Have many applicants for national one area and forget others. I have already said lottery funding, not specifically those in Cavan 1075 Other 1 July 2004. Questions 1076

[Mr. Wall.] Sport and Tourism if he will consult the Depart- and Monaghan, failed to draw down funding they ment of Education and Science with a view to were allocated? What mechanism is in place to making the proposed and long-delayed nation- ensure that, in such instances, there is an investi- wide sports facilities audit include facilities which gation into the reasons for not drawing down are operated by or are available to schools, in funding? What can be done where people may light of the significant increase in obesity and have problems generating the extra funds recognised lack of sports facilities for schools, as required or where they simply do not draw down revealed in a recent INTO survey. [19754/04] the funding? 34. Mr. McCormack asked the Minister for Mr. O’Donoghue: There have been several Arts, Sport and Tourism when the national audit instances where funding was not drawn down. of local sports facilities will commence to ensure Figures released on the day of the sports capital a more effective targeting of new facilities at programme announcement may look great on locations at which they are needed; and if he will paper but the reality is that some organisations make a statement on the matter. [19742/04] never get around to drawing down the funds. Mr. O’Donoghue: I propose to take Questions There are misconceptions regarding the sports Nos. 7 and 34 together. capital programme. One glaring misconception is It is my intention that the proposed national that grants, once announced, will be paid regard- audit of local sports facilities be carried out in less of whether the necessary criteria are met. conjunction with the development of a sports This is not the position. Irrespective of how a facilities strategy. As the Deputy will appreciate, decision on a grant is arrived at, the payment can completion of a review of the sports capital pro- never take place unless the criteria to which the gramme is a necessary precursor to the develop- grant is subject are complied with. These criteria ment of overall strategy in this area. As this involve issues such as matching funds, planning review is now in its final stages, I intend to set up permission, where appropriate, foreshore licences an inter-agency steering group to oversee the and by-laws. project. Unfortunately, several instances arise in which One of the immediate tasks for this group will the criteria are not fulfilled and therefore the be to oversee the commencement of the national grants are not paid. On occasion, we have written audit of local sports facilities. Part of this work to various clubs and organisations to state we will be to decide on the type and location of facili- were subjecting them to a sunset clause whereby ties to be included as part of the scope of such we would have to say goodbye to them if they did an audit. It will be a matter for this group when not take up their grants by 31 December. In such established to decide on the scope in light of all cases, the clubs or organisations suddenly become the requirements set out. more active than they were previously and one It is worth noting that the Irish Sports Council’s finds that, in some instances, they then fulfil the most recent statement of strategy, recognising the criteria. However, as I stated, there are instances need to engage young people in sporting activity, in which the criteria are never fulfilled. However, sets out as one of the key objectives the need to it must be remembered that most of the organis- increase opportunities to participate in sport at ations and clubs with which we are dealing are local level, particularly for school-aged children. voluntary and it is perfectly understandable Last month, I launched the Irish Sports Council’s therefore why documentation, etc. may not be Buntu´ s programme, a national initiative targeting forthcoming. In general, most clubs do everything primary schools designed to give children a fun, they can to comply with the criteria. but high-quality, introduction to sport. I have no doubt that the facility needs to cater Mr. Wall: Are they given every opportunity? for school-aged children will comprise one of the key issues to be considered in the sports facilities Mr. O’Donoghue: They are given every strategy, the development of which will heavily opportunity. influence the scope and requirements of the national audit of sports facilities. Mr. English: Would it be in order for a club purchasing equipment to change its mind and opt Mr. Gormley: Question No. 7 makes reference for a different model or type of equipment if it to the significant increase in obesity. Clearly, an were the same price? approach similar to the inter-agency one is required to tackle this problem. Bearing in mind Mr. O’Donoghue: If a club has been allocated that yesterday was the deadline for submissions funding, it is open to the club to apply to the to the Department of Health and Children on this Department and provide a valid reason it wishes worsening problem, does the Minister agree that to change direction regarding that funding. The if we are to deal with it, we must make children Department and I are as flexible as we possibly play more sport at school? Is it the case that it is can. not just a question of facilities but also of attitude in that we must change the attitude to sport so it Sport and Recreational Development. will not be regarded as a waste of time in schools? 7. Mr. Sargent asked the Minister for Arts, Perhaps our approach has focused too much on 1077 Other 1 July 2004. Questions 1078 competition. Those who are good at sports are lem. Young people are now less fit and less active allowed to participate in them and are provided than they were ten years ago. with the necessary facilities while the rest are sim- There will have to be a major refocus on how ply not encouraged to do so. Is it the Minister’s national lottery money is spent. A community intention to again require the participation of all which is prepared to provide a sports facility on in sport? school grounds, whether primary or secondary, should be given preference. Such a facility could Mr. O’Donoghue: There are more than encour- be used by the school during the day and by the aging signs to the effect that we are treating sport community during the evening. Time constraints more seriously. The funding available for sport and weather make it impractical for a teacher to has increased significantly to \110 million from a walk children to a sports facility half a mile or a base of \17 million which obtained when the issue mile away from a school. In future, when money of sport was on the Cabinet table in 1997. There is being provided for sports facilities, preference has also been tremendous expenditure under the should be given to communities, clubs and organ- sports capital programme. There has been expen- isations which are prepared to build facilities on diture of \370 million on 3,500 different projects or adjacent to school grounds. That would be a since 1998. However, there is still a long way to good start but it is not happening. go. Facilities at national school level, for example, leave a lot to be desired in many cases. The con- Mr. O’Donoghue: Since 1998, more than 3,500 struction of physical education halls is a matter of projects in every city, village and parish in the \ urgency in many cases, particularly in the context country have seen development and almost 270 of the new physical education curriculum in million has been spent. national schools. It is important for us to recognise that Mr. Deenihan: It was mostly spent on competi- resources only stretch so far and that where there tive sport. is a choice between providing a PE hall and a classroom, the classroom will be chosen. Mr. O’Donoghue: If one adds the amount allocated under the swimming pool programme the However, my Department has shown a willing- \ ness to become involved in joint ventures with total comes to 350 million since 1997. It is not the Department of Education and Science to con- an insignificant sum. In fact, it is the first serious structing PE halls, for example, whereby the com- expenditure on sports facilities in the country. I munity can utilise the halls when the school is not accept that we have a long way to go. I am under no illusion about the fact that facilities in schools doing so. We might usefully progress this initiat- are, for the most part, inadequate. This is partic- ive in the context of the audit of sports facilities ularly the case in primary schools. However, we in recent years and the strategic plan that we are trying to build up the base and we have made will develop. a considerable amount of progress in a very short We have made progress but, in truth, we still space of time. have a long way to go to deal with the issue of The facilities I have mentioned are, for the obesity, take children away from their Playsta- most part, utilised by schools and the volunteers tions and put them on the playing fields. in the clubs and organisations concerned encourage participation by schools. We always look ben- Mr. Deenihan: While I agree with the Minister evolently on applications which would result in that funding for sport has been increased, I do schools and the community benefiting from not believe it has been directed at physical edu- sports facilities. Resources are finite. Under the cation at both primary and secondary levels. In sports capital programme, the amount available 1991, I carried out a national survey of all primary in any given year rarely exceeds \22 million. That and post-primary schools in the country. I dis- is a vast increase on what was available, even covered that 75% of primary schools in Kerry, for seven or eight years ago when very little was example, had no PE hall. A recent survey by the available. INTO confirmed that 70% of schools did not have PE facilities, so matters have not improved Mr. Wall: I would welcome this audit and the in the last 13 years. Most of the PE halls in sooner it is done, the better. I acknowledge that schools in Kerry have been converted into considerable funds have been provided through classrooms and schools do not have the facilities the national lottery for sports facilities and that to put the new PE curriculum in place. In this matter is not entirely the problem of the addition, teachers do not feel confident to take Department. Nevertheless, lottery funds have on the new curriculum. Inservice courses of two been spent in areas which have major social prob- or three days will not provide this confidence. We lems but no link appears to have been made have a major problem in our primary and post- between providing sports facilities and helping primary schools. those communities. It is imperative that an audit We are sitting on a medical timebomb. Some be done as soon as possible. years ago, when I forecast that we would have a I do not know the solution to this problem. I major obesity problem I was accused of exagger- am familiar with the application forms for lottery ation. It is now obvious that we have such a prob- funding and I know they take account of various 1079 Other 1 July 2004. Questions 1080

[Mr. Wall.] 19. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Arts, aspects of social inclusion and so on. Neverthe- Sport and Tourism the progress made with regard less, communities which experience social to the provision of a new building for the Abbey exclusion are often not involved in the provision Theatre; and if he will make a statement on the of lottery funded sports facilities. The proposed matter. [19702/04] audit will show up these black spots. Mr. O’Donoghue: I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 and 19 together. Mr. O’Donoghue: Deputy Wall is right. There I refer the Deputies to my earlier reply to are, unquestionably, blackspots throughout the today’s Priority Question No. 1. country and in disadvantaged areas. In that respect, we have tried to prioritise such areas through the RAPID and CLA´ R programmes. We Mr. Wall: I welcome the Minister’s earlier have seen considerable developments in recent assurance that the new Abbey Theatre building times, not least in the Acting Chairman’s own will be in the city. None of us could envisage the constituency, in areas which might be described Abbey Theatre being anywhere else. If the as vulnerable or disadvantaged. Participation Carlton Cinema site is not available it is rates in the areas concerned where we have seen important that the theatre remain within the these developments have been quite high. The boundaries of the city. Government is committed to continuing to invest in areas of disadvantage in order to build up the Arts Funding. necessary facilities, because there are gaps. 9. Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Arts, We have only begun to take sport seriously. Sport and Tourism the results to date of the cul- We did not have a Cabinet Minister for sport tural relations committee funding supporting until 1997, we had no statutory Sports Council Irish artists working abroad; if these proposals until a few years ago and we had no proper sports have been successful; if he, on the recommend- capital programme until 1998. In 1997, our budget ation of the CRC, will continue such funding; and for sport was \17 million while today it is \110 if he will make a statement on the matter. million. We had no budget for a sports council [19736/04] but the Sports Council’s budget is now \30 million. We had no programme for elite athletes and Mr. O’Donoghue: With effect from January we now have a carding system. We had no 2002 responsibility for the cultural relations com- measurements for high performance athletes and mittee transferred from the Department of For- we now have. Sam Lynch, the oarsman, has said eign Affairs to the then Department of Arts, that while a few years ago his biggest worry was Heritage, Gaeltacht, and the Islands. It is now, of how he would pay his hotel bill, he can now worry course, under the aegis of my Department. about rowing. Our sports men and women now Since its establishment in 1949, it has advised know that the Government and people are on support for cultural projects with a view to behind them. enhancing Ireland’s image and reputation abroad It is true that there are huge gaps and that we and promoting friendly relations and a mutual have a long way to go. If we all recognise that, knowledge and understanding with other coun- Government and Opposition can work together tries. The CRC has played a vital role in promot- to build up facilities with a view to ensuring ing Irish arts and artists internationally. greater participation, that more women become In the context of my statutory responsibility involved in sport, that more young people come under the Arts Act 2003 to promote the arts both away from the Playstations and onto the playing inside and outside the State, I am in the process fields and that we have a healthy sporting society. of reviewing the mechanisms and the basis of Sport is endemic in Ireland. We are all interested funding used to promote and support Irish arts in it but we did not invest sufficiently in sport internationally with a view to formulating a new for the simple reason that we did not have the strategic approach that will galvanise Irish arts in resources to do so. Now we have more resources an international context, and is flexible, respon- and we will treat it more seriously. That is true of sive, and efficient enough to meet the needs of every party in the House. today’s fast moving world. Proper promotion of arts and culture can make a positive contribution to enhancing Ireland’s image abroad, and our Abbey Theatre. relationships with other peoples and with key 8. Ms McManus asked the Minister for Arts, people in other countries. Such promotion also Sport and Tourism the position with regard to the helps to protect cultural diversity and cultural redevelopment of the Abbey Theatre; if rede- identity in the context of globalisation. The arts veloping the theatre on its current site remains must also be promoted internationally for their his preferred option; if an announcement on the own sake. Irish artists can, by performing and future of the Abbey Theatre will be made prior exhibiting abroad, develop and enhance their to December 2004, the 100th anniversary of the artistic talents, find new markets for their work founding of the Abbey; and if he will make a and open doors for other Irish artists who may statement on the matter. [19727/04] follow later. 1081 Other 1 July 2004. Questions 1082

Mr. Wall: What is the timescale for the pro- In the face of the common challenges facing the posals the Minister will make and what part will tourism sector across Europe, I requested Fa´ilte the CRC play? Artists have benefited from its Ireland to organise a major international con- involvement in the past. Is demand for this fund- ference on tourism as the centrepiece of Ireland’s ing increasing and is there a world-wide scene for tourism programme for the Presidency. The Irish artists? What types of artists are involved or event, entitled “Charting Tourism Success”, was does the CRC receive applications from all dis- held in Dublin Castle and was very well attended ciplines? by policy makers and industry practitioners across Europe. A diverse panel of distinguished Mr. O’Donoghue: The term of the office of the speakers provided valuable insights and set out current Cultural Relations Committee was to some fresh ideas on how to meet the challenges expire earlier this year but we extended it until facing the sector. the end of 2004. The issue is how we will proceed In the sports field, Ireland successfully from here. It is important to recognise that the launched the European Year of Education Arts Act 2003 provides for the first time for a role through Sport and has worked closely with the for the Minister in the promotion of Irish arts on Commission and other member states in estab- the international stage. Whatever mechanism we lishing a clearer framework for subsequent Presi- use when replacing the Cultural Relations Com- dencies initiating action in the sports arena. mittee, we will ensure that it is in a position to A meeting of Troika Sports Ministers, as well use the resources available to promote Irish arts. as a joint meeting of Sport and Education Mini- Traditionally, the committee was a branch of sters, was held in January. Matters addressed the Department of Foreign Affairs and was used included the need to promote the educational and to build good relations with other countries. Now social values of sport; developing a better part- the remit will be much broader because it relates nership between the worlds of school and sport; to the effective co-ordination between my sport as an instrument in improving multi-cultural Department, the Department of Foreign Affairs dialogue and in promoting peace; and the key and the new committee. I hope the new mechan- role of sport in the area of cardiovascular health ism will be up and running later this year when and combating obesity, especially among the CRC’s remit will finish and that it will be an children. innovative and invigorating body which will be a On the arts and culture front, three separate success in assisting me, as Minister, to promote events were held in Ireland with the aim of Irish arts on the international stage. enhancing European co-operation in the field of culture, particularly in the area of linguistic diver- Mr. Deenihan: How many artists are supported sity, music and the digitisation of cultural content. by the Cultural Relations Committee? The ques- The feedback from those who attended these tion related to the support of Irish artists working events has been very positive and I am confident abroad but there are also Irish students studying they will lead to greater mutual understanding abroad who are finding it difficult to cover the and co-operation among the 25 member states. costs of fees and maintenance. Will the fund be The digitisation conference which I opened in extended to include them? Dublin Castle on Tuesday was one of the final Mr. O’Donoghue: My Department has com- events of the Presidency. missioned a report on the way forward and I hope In terms of advancing the agenda on cultural we can discuss it in the near future. I do not have co-operation at European level, the Irish Presi- the exact number of artists who have been dency achieved progress in a number of areas, assisted by the Cultural Relations Committee but including securing consensus on a Community the allocation this year by the committee amounts action programme to promote bodies active in to \700,000. It has helped artists in theatre and the field of culture at European level; securing dance, film, music, visual arts, literature and the decisions on the extension of the Culture 2000 Imagining Ireland conference. I hope the new and media programmes to the end of 2006 which body will be in a position to allocate substantially will allow the necessary time to debate and more but one never knows. achieve consensus on the next generation of programmes in this field; securing political agree- EU Presidency. ment to the continuation of the EU involvement with the European Audiovisual Observatory; sec- 10. Mr. Kehoe asked the Minister for Arts, uring political agreement on a proposal to allow Sport and Tourism the matters that he has pur- new member states to participate in European sued with his European Union counterparts dur- Capitals of Culture programme; and securing ing Ireland’s Presidency of the European Union; agreement on the designation of the cities of and if he will make a statement on the matter. Luxembourg and Sibiu for the European Capital [19713/04] of Culture event 2007 and the cities of Liverpool Mr. O’Donoghue: Across my portfolio, a wide and Stavanger for the European Capital of Cul- variety of events and initiatives was organised ture event 2008. and advanced as part of my Department’s Presi- In more general terms, Ireland’s Presidency of dency programme. the EU has proven to be an invaluable oppor- 1083 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1084

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] National Concert Hall. tunity to showcase all that is best about our coun- 11. Mr. O’Dowd asked the Minister for Arts, try. In this regard, an extensive cultural pro- Sport and Tourism the proposals to improve the gramme was organised and supported by my accommodation available to the National Concert Department which has encompassed a variety of Hall; and if he will make a statement on the mat- cultural links, tours and exchanges between Irish ter. [19704/04] artists, Irish festivals and artists from the new member states. The centrepiece of this pro- Mr. O’Donoghue: I refer the Deputy to my gramme was the “Day of Welcomes” on 1 May reply to Question No. 59 of 25 May 2004. to celebrate the historic enlargement of the Union. This day long carnival involving towns Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate. and cities across Ireland proved an enormous success both locally and internationally and was an Adjournment Debate Matters. outstanding tribute to the generosity and warmth of the Irish welcome. In terms of building good- An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to advise will throughout Europe, particularly in the new the House of the following matters in respect of member states, it was an overwhelming success. which notice has been given under Standing Obviously, such positive images of Ireland and Order 21 and the name of the Member in each the Irish people in celebratory mood, which were case: (1) Deputy Joe Higgins — the need to raise broadcast throughout Europe and the world over with the Minister the concern over the case of a the May weekend, provided a major boost to our person (details supplied); (2) Deputy Pat Breen image as a tourism destination. Almost 1,000 — the need to ask the Minister the current posi- journalists, radio and TV crews from across the tion with regard to the Quilty Scariff and Feakle world were in Ireland for the weekend and tele- sewerage schemes; (3) Deputy Neville — ortho- vision coverage of the events was beamed into dontic services in the mid-western region; (4) more than a billion homes worldwide. Deputy Costello — to ask if the Minister will The cultural programme’s tours to and from investigate the causes of a major fire in a Shell the new member states continued right until the depot in Dublin Port on 27 June 2004 and ensure end of the Presidency. These events have proven that proper health and safety measures are in particularly successful in building strong ties with place in the port at all times; (5) Deputy Rabbitte our new EU neighbours which will serve us very — the urgent need for the provision of protection well at the enlarged negotiating table. and security for St. Anne’s Primary School, Fet- tercairn, Dublin 24; (6) Deputy Cowley — to ask Mr. English: I thank the Minister for his com- the Minister whether he feels the decision not to prehensive answer. It was like “This Is Your renew the licence of North West Radio by the Life” for the past six months. Did the association Broadcasting Commission of Ireland is a travesty between alcohol and sports sponsorship arise dur- of justice. ing any conversations? The Minister outlined the The matters raised by Deputies Rabbitte, benefits of sport, one which is that it acts as a Neville, Pat Breen and Costello have been selec- deterrent with regard to alcohol and drugs. Do ted for discussion. our colleagues in Europe share the view that the association of sport with alcohol in advertising is Barron Report: Statements. a problem? Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Mr. O’Donoghue: A Troika meeting was held (Mr. McDowell): I express the Taoiseach’s regret which was extremely useful in terms of advancing that he is not able to be present in the House the cause of sport in the European Union. The today for these statements. He initiated this pro- new treaty, which was successfully negotiated by cess following a meeting with the Justice for the the Taoiseach and his team, has provided for Forgotten group on 22 April 1999 and he remains sport for the very first time. The question of alco- deeply committed to the victims and their famil- hol and sport is something, which obviously needs ies and the search for the truth surrounding these to be addressed as does the question of alcohol terrible atrocities. As Attorney General at the and drugs. I have often said that no sport is the time, I was centrally involved in these devel- enemy of any other sport but sport has enough opments and can testify to the commitment of the enemies, including alcohol and drugs. In that con- Taoiseach to getting to the truth of that series of text, the European year of education through terrible events. When I was on the Opposition sport can be of immense importance since for the benches, I was aware of the Justice for the For- first time, meetings of sports Ministers will be on gotten group and assisted on an all-party basis a formal basis under the new treaty. We should with a group of Deputies from all sides of the be in a position to advance sport and take on the House in an effort to promote the group’s cause enemies I have described. at a time when it did not have that many friends. We did not set out specific measures or discuss The Dublin and Monaghan bombings left an specific ways to tackle alcohol, however the indelible mark on the people of Ireland. They did underlying trend or objective is to use sport to not simply affect Dublin and Monaghan. Those tackle such issues. who were so cruelly blown away on that day and 1085 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1086 many of those who suffered such terrible injuries, able regret that the report found inadequacies came from all walks of life and from all over the with the Garda investigation. country. Since that time, there have been profound The Independent Commission of Inquiry into changes in Garda structures, criminal justice the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, whose sole legislation, available technology and the level of member was at first, the former Chief Justice, the co-operation between police services. Although late Liam Hamilton and later Judge Henry Bar- there is obviously concern and disappointment ron, began its work in early 2000. It was asked to about what the Barron report says about the undertake a thorough examination involving fact- Garda investigation, we should not lose sight of finding and assessment of all aspects of the Dub- the fact that in the course of the past 30 years the lin and Monaghan bombings and their sequel, Garda has proved vital in preserving the security including the facts, circumstances, causes and per- of the State and some of its members have been petrators of the bombings; the nature, extent and called on to pay the ultimate sacrifice in that adequacy of the Garda investigation, including regard. the co-operation with and from the relevant par- Mr. Justice Barron found no evidence that any ties in Northern Ireland and the handling of evi- branch of the security forces in Northern Ireland knew in advance that the bombings were about dence, including the specific analysis of forensic to take place. I place on record my appreciation evidence; the reasons no prosecutions took place, and that of the Government for the work carried including whether and if so, by whom and to what out by the late Mr. Justice Liam Hamilton, Mr. extent the investigations were impeded; and the Justice Barron and their team. I also thank Mr. issues raised by the “Hidden Hand” television Justice Barron for the assistance he gave the documentary broadcast in 1993. Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, This was to prove a difficult and time-consum- Defence and Women’s Rights, which greatly ing task. The events being examined took place appreciated his help. 30 years ago and many of those who were cen- On 10 December last, Mr. Justice Barron’s trally involved at that time are since deceased. report into the bombings was referred to the Accessing records both inside and outside the Oireachtas and both Houses asked the Joint jurisdiction proved difficult and, in some cases, Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and was simply not possible. In particular, arising Women’s Rights to consider whether the report from the non-availability of records in Northern addressed all the issues covered in its terms of Ireland, the scope of Mr. Justice Barron’s report reference, the lessons to be drawn and any was, as he described it, limited as a result. actions to be taken in light of the report, its find- Mr. Justice Barron drew conclusions relating to ings and conclusions and whether, having regard the terms of reference given to the commission. I to the report’s findings and following consul- do not propose to go into all the conclusions in tations with the inquiry, a further public inquiry his report in detail, save to say that the report into any aspect of the report would be required sheds a great deal of light on what happened on or fruitful. that day, why it happened, who was responsible The referral of Mr. Justice Barron’s report to and the actions that ensued. the joint committee provided a very useful con- Key among Mr. Justice Barron’s conclusions text for detailed consideration of his report and was that the Dublin and Monaghan bombings for further submissions by those who contributed were carried out by loyalist paramilitaries, most to the work of the commission or were the subject of whom were members of the UVF, primarily as of comment in the report. I am glad so many sub- a reaction to the prospect of a greater role for the missions were received and many of those who Irish Government in the administration of North- were the subject of the conclusions in the report ern Ireland arising from the Sunningdale agree- availed of the opportunity to meet the joint comment. It was also concluded that these loyalist mittee and put their points of view. The Taoi- seach appeared before the joint committee on 25 groups were capable of carrying out the bombings February last and I appeared before it on 10 Feb- without help from any section of the security for- ruary to respond to questions on points of ces in Northern Ireland, although it is likely that interest. individual members of the UDR and RUC either participated in or were aware of the preparations Mr. F. McGrath: Many people did not show the for the attacks. Mr. Justice Barron further con- joint committee the courtesy of turning up. It is a cluded that the Garda investigation failed to disgrace that a former Taoiseach did not turn up. make use of the information it obtained and that the State was not equipped to conduct an Mr. McDowell: Anybody who heard the testi- adequate forensic analysis of the explosions, one mony of those who lost loved ones or were consequence of which was that potentially vital injured in the bombings, some of whom are still clues were lost. suffering from horrific injuries to this day, could As I stated at the time of publication of the not fail to have been moved by their harrowing Barron report, it would not be possible for me to stories. Following 17 May 1974 the lives of those account for the course of a Garda investigation affected by the bombings were never the same some decades ago but it is a matter of consider- again. Rarely, if ever, have such distressing 1087 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1088

[Mr. McDowell.] The joint committee also considered external accounts been heard in the halls of this issues relating to the identity of the perpetrators Parliament. and whether there was collusion. Many of the I am glad the inquests into the deaths of those submissions, and Mr. Justice Barron’s statement, who were killed in the bombings have, at last, to the joint committee allude to the high level of been held. The coroner apologised to the families collusion operating in Northern Ireland. There is for the delay in holding the inquests. This apology a significant amount of material in the Barron was welcome because I have no doubt that the report which could suggest a link between some absence of inquests contributed significantly to of those suspected of having a role in the bom- the sense of abandonment of the families. At the bings and the security forces in Northern Ireland. inquest hearings, the families had a further The joint committee considered this issue at opportunity to remember their lost loved ones length and received both oral and written sub- and recall the circumstances of their deaths. I missions from representatives of victims and rela- hope this experience has helped in the healing tives groups, legal representatives and other process. organisations. Most of these submissions relate to The joint committee reported back to the the issue of co-operation by the British auth- Oireachtas on 31 March 2004 and since then orities with Mr. Justice Barron’s independent Members of this House have had an opportunity commission and the joint committee. to consider its findings. I will address some of the The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland issues raised in the joint committee’s report and wrote to the joint committee and gave his per- the conclusions it reached. The Government has sonal assurance that information was provided in not yet considered the report in advance of the the fullest possible manner, consistent with his House having an opportunity to express its views responsibilities to protect national security and on the matter but it will do so in light of the views the lives of individuals. Notwithstanding this reply, however, on the question of whether there expressed by Deputies in the debate today and should be a further investigation or inquiry on the the inquest jury’s findings. identity of the perpetrators and the issue of col- The joint committee expressed views on a wide lusion, the joint committee considers that a public range of issues as requested in its terms of refer- tribunal of inquiry in Northern Ireland and-or ence. These require careful examination and will Britain is required and represents the best oppor- be considered by the Government in due course. tunity to be successful. The joint committee also considered the very dif- Before any inquiry would proceed, the joint ficult questions about whether a public inquiry committee has recommended that what is into any aspect of the report would be required required, in the first instance, is a Weston Park or fruitful. style inquiry of the kind carried out by Judge It broke down the issues of concern to it into Peter Cory. The House will recall that following internal issues which could be resolved within this agreement reached between the British and Irish jurisdiction, namely, the reason the Garda inves- Governments at Weston Park in 2001, Judge tigation was wound down, missing documentation Cory, a retired Canadian Supreme Court judge, in the Garda organisation and the docu- was appointed to undertake a thorough investi- mentation, if any, missing from my Department. gation of allegations of collusion between British The joint committee is of the view that a com- and Irish security forces and paramilitaries in six mission of investigation pursuant to legislation, cases. The aim of the process was to determine which has been passed in this House and is cur- whether there is sufficient evidence of collusion rently before Seanad E´ ireann would be an ideal between state security forces and those respon- way to deal with the issues pertaining to this juris- sible for the killings in each case to warrant a diction. In particular, the joint committee hopes public inquiry. such a commission would resolve these issues in Such a Cory-type investigation, according to a speedy and effective manner, while fully the joint committee, should be conducted on the respecting fair procedures and natural justice. If basis that the judge conducting the investigation the Bill is enacted into law, the commission would should be of international stature, the investi- have powers of compulsion to send for papers gation would have the powers to direct witnesses and so forth and would not, therefore, be in the for interview, compel the delivery of docu- position of a non-statutory, voluntary inquiry. mentation and inspect premises — statutory pow- I am aware that reservations have been ers not available to Judge Cory, time limits expressed by Justice for the Forgotten about the should be agreed for the commencement, dur- suitability of this type of inquiry for a matter of ation and conclusion of the investigation, the this nature. Deputies will, I am sure, express their judge conducting the investigation could recom- views on this in the House. The alternative being mend further action, including whether a public sought is a public tribunal of inquiry. One must inquiry in either jurisdiction should be held, and consider whether such an inquiry would be sig- the relevant Government would be obliged to nificantly better or worse than a commission of implement any recommendation within a defined inquiry established under the legislation currently time limit. The Government will consider this before the Houses. recommendation carefully, although a Cory-type 1089 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1090 inquiry would be non-statutory and, thus, would Over recent years, considerable progress has not have powers beyond those available to Mr. been made in securing peace and stability on this Justice Barron. island but we still have a considerable way to go. The question of dealing with the events of the However, the position is infinitely better than in past 30 years in Northern Ireland is difficult. In the dark days of the Troubles when the agenda this jurisdiction, we asked Mr. Justice Barron to of a great number of people on the island was to examine a number of further cases destroy human life as a way of making political 5 o’clock and he recently sent his report to the points. Sadly, a few people still cling to that mad Taoiseach on atrocities that were view of the world whereby they can advance the attempted or perpetrated before 1974. These cause to which they adhere by killing other include the 1972 and 1973 Dublin bombings and people. However, there are a tiny minority. The other bombings and incidents. It is intended that ongoing work of Mr. Justice Barron is helping this report, which I have just seen, will also be people to understand and come to terms with referred to the Oireachtas and will also be that past. published. Mr. Justice Barron will report later this year on Mr. P. McGrath: I welcome the opportunity to other events perpetrated after 1974, including the contribute to the debate. I express my sincere Seamus Ludlow case, the Dundalk bombing of sympathy to all the families of the victims of the 1975 and the Castleblayney bombing of 1976. The bombings. These terrible atrocities were carried Government’s primary concern in carrying out out 30 years ago but the damage then and since this work has been for the victims of all these has been incalculable as families continue to live outrages and their relatives. The excellent work with that terrible day when their loved ones were of the former Ta´naiste, John Wilson, in preparing blown away. the report of the Victims Commission provided a Mr. Justice Barron appeared before the sub- basis for responding to the needs of those who committee on the Barron inquiry, of which I was suffered such loss and who, over the years, were a member, on 10 December 2003 and stated, largely forgotten. “The Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 17 May The Government has established a Remem- \ 1974 remain the most devastating attack on the brance Fund Commission and will provide 9 civilian population of this State to have taken million over the next three years to acknowledge place since the ‘Troubles’ began.” It was the the loss that people suffered and to provide for greatest atrocity in the State’s history and nobody the ongoing medical needs of victims. Appli- has been brought to justice for it. cations for receipt of funding have recently been The sub-committee examined various aspects invited by the commission. Through the fund, it of the Barron report. On the first day of hearings is also being arranged to provide a substantial we received submissions from various people contribution to the Northern Ireland memorial whose loved ones were murdered that day, which fund. are listed in the report. I refer to three people There are lessons to be learned from all this. The Government will consider the sub-commit- representing different age groups who made pres- tee’s recommendations, take account of the con- entations. The first is Derek Byrne who was a tributions to this debate and action will be taken. young man at the time. The sub-committee’s final I thank all those who co-operated with Mr. Jus- report stated: tice Barron in compiling his report and with the Mr. Derek Byrne told the Sub-Committee joint Oireachtas sub-committee in its deliber- how at the age of 15 he was caught up in the ations. They have made a valuable contribution blast of the Parnell Square bomb. He was pro- to the search for truth. The committee carried out nounced dead on arrival in Jervis Street its work diligently and with great care and I pay Hospital and placed in a morgue. It was only tribute to the Chairman and members of the sub- when he later woke up that the hospital auth- committee for the work they did, the sensitive orities realised he was alive and brought him to way they conducted proceedings and the careful the operating theatre to treat his injuries. He way in which they avoided broad brush solutions stated: “I am still attending hospital. The as they examined the realities of what they had stigma of the bombings is the scars I carry. to deal with and faced up honestly to the com- When I was a teenager I was refused entrance plexities involved. into night clubs and discotheques and still to I pay special tribute to the work of the the present day you have a stigma attached to members of Justice for the Forgotten who have you...” so ably represented those who suffered so much as a result of the atrocities that were perpetrated That young man’s presentation to the sub-com- on them. I know this has been a difficult and leng- mittee was touching as he outlined his terrible thy process for them as I have been privy to their memory of the bombings and the ongoing diffi- dealings with the Government over the past five culties it created for him. years. I am glad that, over recent years, my The second person is Mr. Tim Grace, a man Department has been able to assist the group fin- whose life was shattered at the time. He had ancially and that this support will continue recently married and had a baby son. His wife through the remembrance fund. went to town that day. The report states: 1091 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1092

[Mr. P. McGrath.] He went on to inform the sub-committee that Mr. Tim Grace asked us to reflect on the fact the report generally indicated that there was a that it was by total chance that his wife was high level of collusion in Northern Ireland at the killed: “During the day and in the afternoon, I time of the bombings. The issue of collusion came looked after the baby for my wife. She had before us and Mr. Justice Barron stated clearly been suffering from flu during the week. The that it was his opinion that it was more than likely baby was teething and she was not in the best that there was collusion. We dealt with that issue form so I said to her that she should take the over a long period and various submissions on the car, go into town and have a look around. She matter were made to us. We can look at what Mr. went into town and parked the car in Gardiner Justice Barron said, which I quoted, but there is Street, just around the corner from Talbot also the testimony of another witness. Mr. Sean Street. She was obviously killed on the way Donlon, the former Secretary General of the back at 5.30 p.m. when the bomb went off. The Department of Foreign Affairs, was assistant sec- elements of chance are, as I pointed out, retary on the Northern Ireland desk in 1974 and colossal.” he was very close to Northern Ireland affairs at the time. His response to the question of whether This case involved a man and woman starting out there was collusion in the Dublin-Monaghan in life and we can all identify with what he has bombings was: “I would certainly, with the pass- been through. age of time, use the word ’probability’ rather than The third person was a more elderly man, Mr. ’possibility’ when it came to collusion.” We must Edward Roice, whose daughter was killed. The look at his judgement very carefully as he was in report states: the thick of it at the time and was aware of what Mr. Roice urged the Sub-Committee to was happening. address the feelings of neglect which he and We also received a comprehensive report from other victims of the bombings have suffered. the Pat Finucane Centre, which also reported to “It has gone too far, as the other speakers have Mr. Justice Barron. The findings of that report said. The Dublin and Monaghan bombings are point clearly to a group of people operating in like dirty words to some higher ups. The atti- Northern Ireland, which had close links to the tude is to ignore it and maybe they will forget security forces and which was more than likely about it. But we will never forget.” involved in the bombing. The suspicion of collusion is very strong and needs further review. These are examples of the testimony given at the The committee decided that a number of issues sub-committee hearings. had to be examined. Internally there was the mat- I commend Deputy Ardagh, who chaired the ter of the Garda inquiry, and the Minister for Jus- sub-committee and did exemplary work as he tice, Equality and Law Reform has outlined the guided members through the hearings. I pay trib- Bill which, when enacted, we felt would be the ute to the staff of the sub-committee, particularly best mechanism with which to examine the Garda Mairead McCabe, the clerk to the committee, and inquiry and missing documents. Although certain the legal advisers who assisted us. Even though people have reservations about it, we should give we went through a difficult time and we worked the legislation the chance to show it is effective remarkably hard, we almost reached unanimity before condemning it. It is the way forward. on the report. One or two members had reser- The next issue, which caused some controversy, vations but it was well received across the board. was whether the Government of the day did what Members received a letter from the Justice for it should have done. Did it handle the issue sensi- the Forgotten group yesterday which commended tively and follow through on the reports? Mr. Jus- the findings of the sub-committee. I am glad the tice Barron was quite critical of the Government group endorsed our report. We were asked to of the day, saying it had not addressed the matter examine the Barron report from different points with adequate concern. The report states that one of view and not to re-investigate it. We went of the complaints made related to the importance through the findings of the Barron report, the Mr. Justice Barron was attaching to the question adequacy of the Garda investigation, the missing of whether the Irish Government of the day had documentation, the role and response of the failed to show adequate concern and that an Government of the day and the composition of opportunity should have been afforded to allow the bombs. We also had a huge number of sub- a response on this issue. missions. Many members of that Government addressed On the perpetrators of the terrible crime, which the committee. One of them, who was in the eye killed 34 people, we refer back to what was said of the storm at the time, was the Minister’s prede- in the report. Mr. Justice Barron stated categori- cessor, former Deputy Pat Cooney. The sub-com- cally that the inquiry was satisfied that the per- mittee noted that the atmosphere and political sons principally responsible for carrying out the landscape was very different 30 years to what it bombing attacks on Dublin and Monaghan were is today. As Mr. Cooney said, the ambience in loyalist paramilitaries. This was the view of the which the Barron report was produced was: security forces on both sides of the Border at the time and most of the information available to the . . .light years removed from the fraught and inquiry pointed in that direction. frenetic times of 1974. The burnt out British 1093 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1094

Embassy was still standing as a stark reminder Governments could lead to a Weston Park-style that democracy could very quickly become agreement. It is the only way forward and is what anarchy. Atrocities were being committed, we should seek. I intended to say a few more mainly by the Provisionals, mainly in the things, but I do not want to delay the House North, on a distressingly regular basis. Some of further. those atrocities spilled over here. I think Dr. FitzGerald mentioned the murder of our col- Mr. Costello: I commend the chair of the all- league and predecessor, Senator Billy Fox. party Oireachtas sub-committee, Deputy Ardagh, on the excellent manner in which he chaired it Senator Fox was murdered six weeks before the and the secretariat which did such fabulous work. Dublin-Monaghan bombings. Mr. Cooney went It was not an easy report to compile, but it was on to say: done expeditiously and efficiently. I also com- Armed robberies on post offices, banks and mend the groups and individuals who appeared mail vans were commonplace. Demonstrations before the sub-committee. In particular, I pay and agitation were being fomented and agi- tribute to Justice for the Forgotten. It is difficult tators bussed in. There were hunger strikes and to appreciate how much work has been done by unrest in the prisons. It was a very fraught time. that voluntary organisation over the years and The contemporary context has always to be how we could have reached this stage without kept in mind when considering the task that that work. The group represented by Desmond J. Judge Barron had to contend with. Doherty gave its expertise and information. The Pat Finucane centre from Derry did extraordi- That gives us a small flavour of what was hap- nary research work in difficult circumstances and pening at the time, when the State was under British Irish Rights Watch gave us good advice attack. I recall going to meetings addressed by on the matter. We were ably supported by those Mr. Cooney and one had to run the gauntlet of organisations which had a direct interest and demonstrators outside who were verbally attack- involvement in and had been working for years ing those attending such meetings. It was a very — some for well over a decade — in this area. difficult time. The background to this matter has been well When Mr. Justice Barron came to the commit- rehashed in the context of the Northern problems tee on 10 December, we asked if he felt that criti- and the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in 1974 cism of the Government of the day was a little which, combined, were the greatest atrocity in the harsh. He said: history of the State. It was preceded by two other One of the problems we faced was that in bombings in 1972 and 1973, which the Minister doing an independent inquiry we had to stand mentioned, and further inquiries. I am glad Mr. back from the people we were dealing with. Justice Barron has reported on those two bom- That was a consideration. Looked at from the bings because there is a link in regard to the per- point of view I believe that the Deputy who put petrators of, and collusion in, those bombings in the question is looking at it, maybe it was 1972, 1973, 1974, the other bombings which took unfair. place in 1975 and 1976 and the killing of Seamus Ludlow. It will be interesting when we are able In that response Mr. Justice Barron told the com- to put the full picture together. mittee that perhaps his condemnation of the The 1974 bombings were the greatest atrocity Government of the day was, in hindsight, some- in the history of the State. The horror stories of thing he would have looked at further. the victims — the survivors — were seared into Why did we not bow the pressure from various the consciousness of all members of the sub-com- sectors to ask for a public inquiry? I referred earl- mittee. Their testimony was very powerful. None ier to the fact that the best way to deal with the of us would have expected the degree of grief, inquiry within our jurisdiction was by way of the suffering and courage expressed by those who new legislation, which is presently in the Seanad. appeared before us. Over the years there was a We felt strongly that if we were to make progress lack of counselling or support services from State with material outside the State and we got expert agencies for the victims — the survivors. Not only advice on this matter, we could not do so by way that, the financial contribution which had been of a public inquiry. When Mr. Justice Barron made over the years in terms of any form of com- sought documents from the North he simply was pensation was paltry. not afforded the opportunity of getting those I remember the time of the bombings. I was a documents. young teacher in my first year in Loreto College It is important that there are further inquiries in North Great George’s Street. One of my into this matter. The committee’s view was that students was injured in the bombing. If the bomb- the only way forward was to have a Weston Park- ing had taken place an hour or so earlier, there style agreement between the Irish and British could have been a far greater catastrophe with Governments. In that way a Cory-style inquiry hundreds of students streaming down North could be set up which would have access to var- Great George’s Street to Parnell Street to catch ious documents and could then decide whether a buses home. further inquiry was required. That is possible. Over the years there has been a lack of focus The friendship between the Irish and British on and public interest in this atrocity. At this 1095 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1096

[Mr. Costello.] An investigation is also required into why so point, I do not believe anyone can comprehend many crucial and relevant documents appear to why. It was lost in the litany of suffering, deaths be missing from Garda files and from the Depart- and bombings in Northern Ireland. It was put to ment of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Those the back of people’s minds and was never dealt crucial investigations need to be conducted at an with by the State or the body politic until the early stage by this Government. The next step for 1990s with the “Hidden Hand” programme, the the Minister, the Taoiseach and the Government formation of Justice for the Forgotten, the anni- is to set up those commissions of investigation as versary meetings, the anniversary masses in the quickly as possible and I would like to see them Pro-Cathedral and other meetings which took established in early autumn. place. We also remember the extent of State sus- An issue which we perhaps did not properly picion and hostility to any form of organisation address in having this debate and which needs to that remembered the atrocity. The early meetings be dealt with is the recommendation that a resol- were always attended by a strong presence from ution should be passed by both Houses of the the special branch which often questioned people Oireachtas adopting the recommendations of the who attended and tried to warn off the public sub-committee. I do not know how we can do that from becoming involved. It was a sad period in because we are having statements today, but per- terms of the State’s response to this atrocity haps it can be done by way of a motion. That which affected so many lives dramatically. would be a preliminary step before transmitting Eventually people were listened to. John that resolution to Westminster to ask the British Wilson, the former Ta´naiste, was the first person Parliament to do likewise, namely, accept the to be made responsible for conducting an investi- findings of the Barron committee and the recom- gation. He recommended the inquiry established mendations of the sub-committee on Justice, under the late Mr. Justice Hamilton and, follow- Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights as the ing his death, Mr. Justice Barron. It resulted in a way forward. Those recommendations need to be comprehensive report which was published last implemented in this jurisdiction and in the year and which gave rise to the Oireachtas sub- United Kingdom. committee being established. I do not want to We proposed that a public inquiry should take dwell on the findings of the Barron investigation as they have been well rehashed. It was a good place covering Northern Ireland and Great report and it went as far as he could go on a vol- Britain because we felt that was where the real untary basis and with the powers at his disposal. meat of the investigation had to take place. We It laid the path for further progress. could not conduct an investigation or public The establishment of the Oireachtas sub-com- inquiry in this jurisdiction in a meaningful fashion mittee enabled it to take a comprehensive look at because we could not compel witnesses from the findings and submissions made, to bring the Northern Ireland or Great Britain to attend here. various people before it and to come up with We proposed a Weston Park-type introductory recommendations for a way forward from that investigation, which would have much the same research. I was a member of that sub-committee role at the Cory investigation, of proposals for and I believe it did a good day’s work, although public inquiries into a number of matters, includ- I would be expected to say that. However, the ing the killings of Pat Finucane, Rosemary sub-committee put together a coherent, practical Nelson, Superintendent Buchanan and Superin- package of proposals which showed a step by step tendent Breen. I understand the Taoiseach is way forward to achieving the objective. about to establish such a process here as an indi- The sub-committee started out by saying it cation to the British Government that he and his believed a public inquiry into the perpetrators of, Government colleagues are serious about the and the collusion in this atrocity was necessary. It cases of people from Northern Ireland who were did not shy away from making the hard decision. assassinated, where there is some evidence to However, it showed how that could be achieved indicate that their deaths came on foot of actions and how steps could be taken in this jurisdiction taken in this jurisdiction. That is a necessary step. and in Northern Ireland-Great Britain to do so. The powers that we are proposing as regards In the first instance, work has to be done to find the Weston Park proposals are in excess of what out why the Garda investigation ended so were granted to Judge Cory who has powers of abruptly. The investigation was all over by the compellability, can direct witnesses for interview summer of 1974 yet this atrocity had taken place and also has power to seize or require docu- in May 1974. Normally such an investigation mentation to be produced before him. There is remains open in a meaningful way for many years also an obligation on the relevant government to if it has not been concluded. There is a proposal implement any recommendations that are made. that a commission of investigation be established The difficulty, however, is that it can only come to look into that matter. The commission of about by agreement and that will only happen if investigations legislation, which I hope will pass the Taoiseach is able to persuade the British through both Houses of the Oireachtas by next Prime Minister to establish such a process. We week, would be an appropriate mechanism for are quite convinced that this would lead to a full- doing that. blown public inquiry. 1097 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1098

In the event that the British Government does Acting Chairman (Mr. Glennon): Is that not co-operate and does not establish a Weston agreed? Agreed. Park-type investigation or a subsequent public inquiry, there is a provision in the proposals that CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: Saddam Hussein is in the committee and the Government should go to the dock in Iraq today and I welcome that such a the European Court of Human Rights to seek tyrant has been made answerable for his crimes. relief for the failure by the British Government However, how many British Prime Ministers, to act on an extraordinary matter that required Secretaries of State and senior army and police an inquiry. The totality of that package means officers should also be in the dock for their war that we can proceed in a practical way with a crimes around the world, particularly here in our reasonable opportunity of obtaining results. I own country? Thirty years on, victims of the Dub- hope we will be able to achieve that effectively. lin and Monaghan bombings still seek truth and justice. The agents of the British Government The sub-committee came up with other recom- who colluded in the bombings and their political mendations, apart from those directly related to masters in Whitehall have yet to be subjected to the findings I have mentioned about proceeding a inquiry, let alone prosecuted for war crimes. further with the inquiry into the Dublin-Mon- They, too, should be in the dock. aghan bombings. There was an extraordinary, The British Government follows debates in the hands-off role by the Minister for Justice, Daíl closely through its representatives who are Equality and Law Reform and the Government almost permanent fixtures in Leinster House. The as regards what should have been the most British Government’s refusal to co-operate with serious investigation ever to have taken place in the inquiry of Justice Barron, with the hearings this State. It seemed that the Garda Sıóchańa of the Oireachtas sub-committee, or with the operated without any great involvement by the recently concluded inquests, speaks volumes. Executive. The sub-committee recommended Their Secretary of State in the Six Counties, Paul that while the Garda Sıóchańa is entitled to inde- Murphy, recently wrote in The Irish Times that pendence in its investigations, the Government he is interested in listening to victims of the and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Troubles. Yet, the same Mr. Murphy turned Reform should at all times be informed of a down an invitation from the Oireachtas sub-com- serious investigation. No serious matter that is mittee to attend its hearings. The Northern being investigated should be allowed to disappear Ireland Office, the Police Service of Northern off the face of the criminal investigatory map Ireland and the North’s forensic science depart- within a short space of time, as if it never existed. ment were each invited to send representatives In addition, the informal basis on which the Cabi- and give evidence at the inquests but refused to net sub-committee on security seemed to operate do so. This followed their refusal to attend the at that time certainly needs to be examined Oireachtas joint committee’s hearings. Their sil- carefully. ence and non co-operation exposes their guilt. There is one final recommendation that should I share the anger and frustration of the sur- be examined and which the Minister for Justice, vivors and the bereaved of Dublin and Monaghan Equality and Law Reform could address with his at the British Government’s stonewalling, but I colleagues in Europe. Since we have experienced am equally exasperated by the meek acceptance difficulties in opting directly for a full-blown pub- of this by the Government here. We have repeat- lic inquiry in this jurisdiction because of the diffi- edly seen the Taoiseach shrug his shoulders and culty in getting witnesses to come forward, there deem as inevitable the silence from the British should be some inter-jurisdictional co-operation side. That is not good enough. — a protocol or agreement — to provide mutual Worse still, we have seen this used as an excuse recognition in EU member states so that where a to refuse a public inquiry in this jurisdiction. I civil public inquiry is established in one juris- must question the determination and drive of this Government in pursuing the British Government. diction, it could also be recognised in another. If Regrettably, the dedication and commitment such a protocol were established, all the difficult- necessary is lacking. The inquiry should be held ies that gave our sub-committee such headaches and the British Government’s representatives could be surmounted quite easily. The Minister should be summoned to attend it, along with for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should those who, we understand, will have a contri- advance that proposal with his EU opposite bution to make. If they refuse to come, let the numbers. empty seats expose their position globally. I am glad that we are having this debate and I The report of the sub-committee under dis- am also glad that the Justice for the Forgotten cussion was a disappointment. I may be the first group seems, by and large, to have accepted and to say so this evening, but it is the case. When the commended the findings of the Oireachtas sub- report recommended a Cory-type investigation in committee. I hope its recommendations will be the North, it stated that the judge conducting the implemented in full. investigation could recommend further action, including whether a public inquiry in either juris- CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I wish to share time diction should be held. Yet, in Mr. Justice with Deputies Gregory and Sargent. Barron’s report, the sub-committee had more 1099 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1100

[CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín.] the Forgotten group are not unreasonable people. than enough evidence to call, in its own right, for They accept in the group’s statement that an a public inquiry covering both jurisdictions. effective investigation of collusion by British However, the majority of the committee failed to security forces in the 1974 bombings, an investi- do so. Therefore, I acknowledge the minority gation conducted in Ireland, will require the par- view of the sub-committee member, Deputy ticipation and full co-operation of the British Finian McGrath, who rightly held out for a full Government. The debate is no longer about public inquiry, for which courageous stance I whether a further inquiry is needed, rather it is commend him. about the form that inquiry should take. The The establishment of the Barron inquiry rep- group’s preference is for a voluntary binding resented a measure of long-overdue progress but agreement between the Irish and British Govern- we have now reached another impasse. Until the ments to pursue an effective human rights investi- British agree to co-operate, the recommendation gation into the bombings. This, they say, could be for an inquiry in the North will be a dead letter. held under the aegis of and in accordance with Another key recommendation of the sub-commit- the Good Friday Agreement. This seems to be a tee was a commission of investigation in this State very reasonable proposition, so what is the into the inadequate Garda investigation, inci- problem? dents in Dublin at the time of the bombing which What is the obstacle to having one effective pointed to collusion and the now notorious miss- and efficient public inquiry held in this State with ing or destroyed Garda files and other docu- the full support of the Irish and British Govern- mentation in this State. ments, which could jointly take steps to ensure That investigation should be set up immedi- that all relevant evidence, documentation and ately on enactment of the Commissions of Inves- persons would be made available to that inquiry? tigation Bill. It should examine the issue of infil- I call on the Government to initiate such a public tration of the Garda Sıóchańa by British inquiry and announce a firm timetable for action, intelligence which, it is widely accepted, took to engage with the families and agree the struc- place. Moreover, its extent and how far up the ture of a properly constituted human rights ladder it went are relevant to the Dublin and inquiry. Surely, the Taoiseach can meet the Brit- Monaghan bombings. Successive Governments, ish Prime Minister specifically on this issue and, if apart from the defensive commentary which will necessary, demand Mr. Blair’s full co-operation. be offered, have sadly failed to ensure that the After all, hardly a day goes by without the British survivors and families of the victims of the Dublin Prime Minister condemning terrorism somewhere and Monaghan bombings secured truth and jus- in the world. Why, therefore, does the British tice. Some 30 years later it is a binding responsi- Government have a difficulty with this issue? bility on us all to ensure that is achieved. Is it because the single worst act of terrorism in this State may have been perpetrated by agents Mr. Gregory: I affirm my commitment to the of the British Government and carried out with campaign of the families, relatives and victims of the collusion of members of the British security the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in their forces? The reluctance of the Irish Government search for the truth about the single worst atroc- to pursue with the British Government the need ity in the history of the Northern conflict. We owe for a full public inquiry must also be questioned. it to the families and the memories of those who Why are the main Opposition parties, namely died to bring closure and finality once and for all Fine Gael and the Labour Party, so reluctant to to this issue. It is the duty of the Government to demand this course of action? I am intrigued by take the necessary steps to ensure this happens. the reticence of all the established political par- Having listened carefully to the Minister’s state- ties to pursue the most logical course of action. Is ment and those of the Fine Gael and Labour there a reluctance to cause serious embarrass- Party spokespersons, there seems to be a distinct ment to the coalition politicians in power in 1974 lack of political will to unambiguously support or to senior Garda figures with very grave the request of the relatives and victims of the responsibilities in the matter, or the Anglo-Irish Dublin and Monaghan bombings. relationships of today? The most recent policy statement from the Jus- I am aware that this issue will not go away tice for the Forgotten group, dated 19 June this because for many years I have seen the commit- year, ends with the following appeal: “We urge ment and determination of relatives and victims the Oireachtas to call for and the Government to to pursue this until finality is achieved. The recent establish in this State nothing less than a public inquests, part of which I attended, will only serve tribunal of inquiry into those grave matters which to strengthen the resolve of the families. I trust require immediate investigation.” the Government will not cop out on this issue but rather will facilitate the Justice for the Forgotten Mr. F. McGrath: Hear, hear. group in its members’ search for truth.

Mr. Gregory: It seems that finality can only be Mr. Sargent: The term “fight against terrorism” achieved by a public tribunal of inquiry in this is one we hear much about from the Taoiseach State. Nothing else has any hope of bringing clos- and the British Prime Minister, Mr. Tony Blair, ure to this issue. Those involved in the Justice for not to mention President George W. Bush. 1101 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1102

However, such words ring hollow in the ears of The Green Party, Comhaontas Glas, supports relatives and victims of the Dublin and Mon- the Justice for the Forgotten group’s call for aghan bombings. The interest in the bombings is nothing less than a public tribunal of inquiry to recent when one considers the commemorations follow through on the findings of the Barron which have taken place. The first was organised report and the Oireachtas sub-committee report. by two elderly citizens and it was some years later There is a need for this inquiry to be held in that the State felt embarrassed enough to get Ireland, not just because many of the witnesses involved, and even then, it took a long time. are elderly but because many of the witnesses, On the 17th anniversary, my colleague Ms such as the former Taoiseach, Mr. Cosgrave, and Patricia McKenna circulated a letter to all the former Minister, Mr. Cooney, need to be Deputies and Senators, which received very little close to the inquiry because they have many ques- response, not to mention attendance at the com- tions to answer. Justice for the Forgotten does memoration. I pay tribute to her, as someone who not support the Oireachtas committee’s recom- lost out in the European Parliament elections, as mendation that an investigations commission, a a consistent, determined and inspiring champion private process, be established and points out that for justice and peace who remains determined to the Human Rights Commission has expressed assist the Justice for the Forgotten group in find- deep concerns as to the suitability of such a coming justice and truth. Patrcia McKenna attended mission where abuses of fundamental human the recent 30th anniversary commemoration in rights are involved. I could relate, but time does Monaghan at a time when one could have for- not permit, the press release from February 2004 given a Dublin MEP candidate for forgoing in which that is stated. events outside her constituency. Such is the level Given that co-operation from the British auth- of her commitment and interest in the issue we orities, which is a necessity, seems not to be forth- are debating. coming to say the least, the decision by the Justice The Green Party commends Mr. Justice Bar- for the Forgotten group to take a case to the ron’s report and the findings of the Oireachtas European Court of Human Rights is fully justi- committee on the Barron report. The horrific fied and based on sound argument. First, there is events of 17 May 1974 are still an open wound a prima facie case that the UK, through its secur- for many who are looking for closure. Mr. Justice ity forces, colluded in the Dublin and Monaghan Barron has properly turned the spotlight on those bombings and, second, the UK, by failing to co- events of 30 years ago and his report, in which he operate with the Barron inquiry, the Oireachtas found it “probable and more than likely that committee hearings and the inquests, has there had been collusion between members of the breached its obligations to co-operate with RUC, the UDR and UVF bombers”, needs to be inquiries into loss of life as set out under Article followed through. Answers are still needed and 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights. they are out there. If there is anything the Irish Government can do to facilitate this, it has a bounden duty to do so. The lack of co-operation by British authorities The issue of the remembrance fund, estab- in Mr. Justice Barron’s inquiry, which extended lished in early 2003, to provide funding for vic- to the Oireachtas sub-committee when neither tims of the Troubles in this jurisdiction is one I Northern Ireland Secretary, Mr. Paul Murphy, have often raised during the Taoiseach’s ques- nor his two predecessors would accept invitations tions. The money from the fund has been a long to give evidence before the sub-committee, has time coming. I understand from the Justice for necessitated Mr. Justice Barron withholding the Forgotten group that the limited terms set judgment on whether that collusion involved down to qualify for the fund, siblings being British military intelligence. We need a definitive excluded, mean that 17 of the 37 victims’ families answer to this. involved in the bombings and the earlier Dublin We all need a definitive answer to the question bombings will not qualify. This fund was not just of the Garda Sıóchańa’s unprofessional behav- about money; it was about acknowledgement. I iour at the time. Why were its investigations urge the Government to reconsider its terms. wound down in 1974 without following up certain leads? Why have official Government files gone Mr. B. Smith: I am glad to have the opportunity missing from the Department of Justice, Equality to make a contribution on the final report of the and Law Reform and the Garda Sıóchańa? Why Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence were there years of Government neglect of all and Women’s Rights into the report of the Inde- these issues? pendent Commission of Inquiry into the Dublin That the Dublin City Coroner’s inquest and Monaghan bombings of 17 May 1974. That adjourned for nearly 30 years is a poignant sym- we are debating this report in the second half of bol that not only were the bombings horrific, the 2004 is clearly a terrible indictment of our public suffering and neglect imposed for a generation by administration system. It is regrettable and it is successive Governments on the victims and famil- unacceptable that these awful tragedies of 30 ies of those bombings has also been horrific. years ago were not comprehensively investigated Much of the information being revealed 30 years at a much earlier time. later at the inquest was information available in I recall the Taoiseach, when speaking at the 1974. joint committee, repeatedly using the words 1103 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1104

[Mr. B. Smith.] on so many and also the absolute futility of “pain, loss and abandonment”. Those victims and violence. the families of victims have every reason to The essential aim of any inquiry must be to get believe the State abandoned them for many years to the truth. In its report, the joint committee has and they have had to endure such pain and loss. put forward practical proposals and I hope the The former Ta´naiste, John Wilson, as victims Government will agree to those recommend- commissioner, recommended in 1998 that a ations. The business is unfinished. The least these private inquiry should be undertaken into the victims deserve is that the truth is achieved and Dublin and Monaghan bombings. Like the Mini- that justice is administered. ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I Some time ago I requested the Taoiseach to strongly commend his work as, victims com- include the Belturbet bombing of 1972 in the missioner. Then the Government appointed the Barron report. I was pleased the Taoiseach former Chief Justice, the late Mr. Justice Hamil- acceded to this request. I understand that Mr. ton, to examine all the circumstances of the bom- Justice Barron’s consideration of the Belturbet bings. Subsequently, Mr. Justice Henry Barron bombing, along with other terrible events, includ- took over the completion of this inquiry and its ing the murder of Se´amus Ludlow, will be work. I compliment Mr. Justice Barron on a very reported this week. Two young people were detailed and thorough report and commend the killed in Belturbet on that fateful night and, work of Deputy Ardagh and all the members of unfortunately, nobody has ever been brought to the sub-committee. justice for those terrible murders. Today’s gener- The Justice for the Forgotten group has been ation has a chance to put the murder, the may- exceptional in its painstaking work and deserves hem and the killings behind us. One small tribute great credit. Mr. Greg O’Neill, solicitor, and we could pay to the thousands of victims of the other members of its legal team have been very Troubles since 1969 is to ensure that the people impressive in outlining the circumstances of these of this island never again face that type of law- awful tragedies, the subsequent neglect in pursu- lessness and complete disregard for human life. ing meaningful inquiries and, above all, the need The political leaders in the Six Counties who to get to the truth. are not living up to their responsibilities should In his evidence to the joint committee I recall realise that the overwhelming majority of the that the Taoiseach referred, in particular, to the people of this island have demonstrated their commitment and the dignified way in which rela- desire for our country and island to be at peace tives of the victims and victims of the bombings and to be a place where human life is treated as put their case. I fully endorse the Taoiseach’s sacred. That mandate was conferred on all of us comments. From my dealings with the Justice for with the approval of the Good Friday Agreement the Forgotten group and also with relatives of the in referenda both North and South. victims, I realise the terrible pain and suffering I commend the work of the Taoiseach and the that has been inflicted and the great dignity with Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in which those people have put forward their own their efforts to achieve the truth in regard to the case. desperate tragedies that are the subject of our deliberations this evening. What is important is Mr. Justice Barron’s report is comprehensive not the name of an inquiry, but an inquiry, and it is obvious to us all that the work was thor- whether private or public, that gets to the truth. ough. We were all conscious that maximum, not The mechanisms and procedures recommended minimal, co-operation from the British auth- in the report of the joint committee should be orities at all levels would be essential to get to accepted by the Government. As other speakers the truth. One telling comment from Mr. Justice have said, more answers are needed and the Barron states: decisions to enable us to get those answers should Correspondence with the Northern Ireland not be delayed. I hope the Government will move Office undoubtedly produced some useful on those recommendations at the earliest poss- information, but its value was reduced by the ible date. reluctance to make original documents available and the refusal to supply other infor- Mr. Neville: I welcome the opportunity to con- mation on security grounds. While the Inquiry tribute to the debate on the Barron report and fully understands the position taken by the commend the sub-committee on the great work British Government on these matters, it must by all its members under the excel- be said that the scope of this report is limited 6 o’clock lent chairmanship of Deputy as a result. Ardagh. Those of us who were not members of the sub-committee looked in on its I believe those comments of Mr. Justice Barron proceedings on a regular basis. The statement by clearly demonstrate that the necessary co-oper- Deputy Paul McGrath on the suffering and diffi- ation was not forthcoming from the British auth- culties experienced over the years by the families orities. I wish to refer again to the work of the of the victims was heart rending and moving. The joint committee. Listening to people who gave exposure of the suffering and difficulties by the evidence to that committee brought home to us sub-committee constituted a great service in help- repeatedly the terrible pain and suffering inflicted ing us to understand the great hurt felt. 1105 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1106

While it is one thing to read and debate the Irish and British people and, in particular, hurt felt by the families of the 33 people who died between the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister. on the fateful night of 17 May 1974, the human The negative impact of the unco-operative British aspect of the tragedy is brought to light when one approach has, been mentioned on several hears the testimony of families and victims who occasions by members of the sub-committee who were injured and still carry the scars. The testi- pointed out that it cannot be overstated in the mony on the terrible events which took place in context of the completion of all aspects of the South Leinster Street, Talbot Street and Parnell report. Street in Dublin and in North Street in Monaghan In its report, the sub-committee stated that it exposed the psychological trauma which con- had heard nothing in the course of its hearings to tinues to be suffered by so many. It should be detract from Mr. Justice Barron’s conclusions remembered that while today we are dealing with that the Garda investigation failed to make full the Barron report, there are many other victims use of the information available to it at the time, and families who were traumatised over the 30 that the State was not equipped to conduct foren- years of the difficulties experienced in Northern sic analysis and that no proper chain of evidence Ireland. was maintained. The sub-committee recom- The Barron report came to a number of con- mended that a commission of investigation clusions. It concluded that the Dublin and Mon- should be established under the legislation in this aghan bombings were carried out by two groups area currently before the Houses to investigate of loyalist paramilitaries, one based in Belfast and why the Garda investigation was wound down the other in the Portadown-Lurgan area. Most, and to examine why the Garda failed to investi- though not all, of those involved were members gate specified leads. The sub-committee went so of the UVF. According to the Barron report, the far as to suggest that in recognition of the trauma, bombings were primarily a reaction to the Sun- which can be caused to victims by the perception ningdale agreement while the loyalist groups of a poor investigative process, major Garda which carried out the bombings in Dublin were investigations should be subject to periodic capable of doing so without help from any section review. of the security forces in Northern Ireland. This, The Barron inquiry encountered difficulty in however, was not deemed to rule out involvement locating all of the relevant files it believed were in by individual RUC, UDR or British army this jurisdiction and the sub-committee considers members. that the question of missing documentation is The report states that the Garda investigation one, which must be resolved. Accordingly, the failed to make full use of the information it sub-committee has proposed that a commission obtained and that certain lines of inquiry which of investigation should be established to investi- could have been pursued further in this juris- gate the identity of the files or documentation diction were not followed up. A number of those which is missing, the reason for this circumstance, suspected of the bombings were reliably said to whether they can be located and whether systems have had relationships with British intelligence or recently put in place can prevent the recurrence RUC special branch officers. of this problem. The Barron inquiry examined allegations that On page 52 of its report, the sub-committee the Garda investigation was wound down as a advances the idea of an agreement between EU result of political interference but no evidence member states to lend recognition to civil public was found to support this proposition. It also con- inquiries to ensure they have the power to gather cluded that there is no evidence that any branch evidence and compel witnesses in other juris- of the security forces knew in advance that the dictions. The sub-committee considers that the bombings were about to take place. While the possibility of holding a further inquiry into the inquiry further concluded that there are grounds identity of the perpetrators of the bombing and for suspecting the bombers may have had assist- the issue of collusion requires further and exten- ance from members of the security forces, the sive consideration. In advocating this consider- involvement of individual members in such ation, the sub-committee recognised that many of activity does not of itself mean the bombings the witnesses reside outside this jurisdiction. were officially or unofficially state sanctioned. Accessing original documentation in the United As alluded to by Mr. Justice Barron, the lapse Kingdom and Northern Ireland is also considered of time has greatly diminished the usefulness of vital to the success of any further investigation an inquiry such as the one he carried out. In or inquiry into these issues. The sub-committee addition, the failure of the Taoiseach to secure favours the establishment of a public tribunal of the co-operation of the British Government inquiry in Northern Ireland and/or Great Britain, meant the inquiry did not have a substantial the terms of reference of which should be based amount of vital information available to it. Per- on those of the Cory inquiry. haps the single greatest failing of the Barron Failing this, the sub-committee believes Ireland inquiry process was the consistent failure to should take the United Kingdom to the European secure British co-operation which is disappointing Court of Human Rights for its failure to put in when one reflects on the special relationship place an appropriate investigation. The sub-com- between the Irish and British Governments, the mittee recommended that a resolution of both 1107 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1108

[Mr. Neville.] Justice for the Forgotten was ably represented Houses of the Oireachtas be passed endorsing its by, Mr. Cormac O´ Du´ lachaín and the group’s sol- report and that Westminster be invited to pass icitor, Mr. Greg O’Neill. I pay tribute to Ms a similar resolution. I would appreciate it if the Bernie McNally, the chairperson of the group and Minister in his response to the debate would com- Ms Margaret Irwin its campaign secretary. Lest ment on this last recommendation. anybody thinks Justice for the Forgotten did not I pay special tribute to the Justice for the For- think highly of the Oireachtas committee, a gotten group, which was established after the recent press release from the group on its broadcast of the 1993 television programme, response to the recommendations of the joint “Hidden Hand”. The group has done a service to committee said it “commends the findings of the the people it represents and those whose lives Oireachtas committee on the Barron Report”. were taken. It has prompted the excellent report Various qualifications are made to this but the which the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, essence of the press release — from discussion I Defence and Women’s Rights presented through understand this to be true — is that Justice for its sub-committee to the House. the Forgotten commends the work we did and feels we did a good job within the parameters Mr. Ardagh: It was a great privilege to chair available. the all-party Oireachtas sub-committee on which I wish to mention Judge Peter Cory. When we sat Deputies Paul McGrath, Finian McGrath, wanted him to attend the committee as a witness, Costello, Hoctor and Peter Power and Senator he had pneumonia so instead of him attending Walsh. A finer group of parliamentarians would the committee we conducted our meeting by tele- be very difficult to find in any parliament in the conference. Although a man of mature years, he world. was an impressive witness. He provided a great It was also a privilege to be part of the lives of insight into how he worked as a result of the Wes- the relatives and victims of the Dublin-Monaghan ton Park talks. He explained how he went about bombings for eight to ten weeks. There is no his investigation and provided much useful infor- doubt that the whole country was moved by what mation, which found its way into our report. Charlie Bird on RTE described as the raw emo- I am not here to defend, explain or advocate tion that came out during the first day of hear- recommendations of the report. It stands on its ings. Deputy Paul McGrath today read some merits. I am interested in hearing the views of the excerpts from those hearings. Everyone in the Members and seeing what action the Govern- country was moved by the horror that happened ment will take on it. The committee has been of and by the tragedy that continues to this day. service and has done its job. Responsibility for As the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law progress now lies with the Members and Govern- Reform said, the Taoiseach was the catalyst for ment as they see fit. the Barron report and the hearings of the joint I am delighted the Commissions of Investi- Oireachtas committee as, following a meeting on gation Bill will, hopefully, pass through all Stages 24 April 1999 with the members of Justice for the by the end of this session. Certain recommend- Forgotten, he promised action on the issue. This ations in our report will be better enabled, by the was followed by, John Wilson’s Victims Com- passing of that Act. The Minister for Justice, mission and his recommendation that an indepen- Equality and Law Reform has been most helpful dent commission be established. to the committee and put in place provisions that The late former Chief Justice, Mr. Liam will help to bring about the recommendations of Hamilton, initiated that independent commission the report. If it was not for his interest in the and he was followed by Mr. Justice Henry Bar- issue, the Commissions of Investigation Bill ron. Neither I, nor most Members knew Mr. Jus- would not be as advanced as it is. tice Barron but he came to the committee to The Garda Sıóchańa Bill, which is expected to explain items in the report we did not fully under- come before the Houses in the autumn is an stand. I have never met a more incisive or intelli- integral part of what we believe is needed as a gent person. I understand he has just completed result of our examination and investigation into his report on the 1972-73 bombings and the Mini- the Dublin-Monaghan bombings. We wish that ster said he has seen those reports. legislation success. I note from the letter we have just received In chapter three of our report we recommend from Justice for the Forgotten that a Government a number of actions on which there has not yet announcement is imminent on the establishment been much discussion. I hope the Government of a public tribunal of inquiry into the murders sees fit to consider some of them. The Minister of RUC officers Breen and Buchanan. Deputy O´ has addressed some of them through actions he Caolaín rightly criticised the British Government is taking in the Garda Sıóchańa Bill. However, and officials in the Northern Ireland Office for matters relating to forensic science, retention of not attending the hearings of the Oireachtas com- documents, support for victims and their families mittee and not meeting Mr. Justice Barron. I etc. have not yet been addressed. Not only in the hope the leadership of the republican movement investigation into the Dublin-Monaghan bom- will co-operate fully with the public inquiry into bings do victims need support, but in many other the Breen and Buchanan murders. areas. I am aware the Minister thinks along the 1109 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1110 same lines and hope he will be able to provide or the Border areas may not realise the state of the resources to improve matters in this regard. war we were in at that time, with terrorists from It was a privilege to be involved in the inquiry both sides of the political and religious divide process and the production of the report. I wish carrying out all sorts of savagery and claiming the House and the Government success in ensur- that they were attacking legitimate targets. For ing that relatives and survivors of the Dublin- instance, Mr. Archie Harper, one of the victims Monaghan bombings get finality as soon as of the Monaghan bombing was a good friend and possible. near neighbour of mine. It is only by the grace of God that other members of his family were not Mr. Crawford: I welcome the opportunity to in his car. It could have been his daughter, Iris, comment on the Barron report and the commit- who spoke at the committee, or his grandson, or tee’s findings on it. I pay tribute to Deputy both. However, his cousin, the late Senator Billy Ardagh and his vice-chairman, my colleague Fox, a Member of the Oireachtas, died as a result Deputy Paul McGrath, on their tremendous work of an IRA bullet on 11 March only two months and that of their colleagues on the committee. earlier. This not to resurrect old wounds but to Those Monaghan relatives and survivors who put that whole tragic period of our history into attended were impressed by the inquiry and context. I condemned then and still do any use of valued the opportunity they were given to put bombs or arms to deal with issues where democ- their stories on the record. I sympathise with the racy and co-operation is the way forward. families of the victims of those tragedies. The I well remember trying to talk to a local poli- bomb explosion, which occurred at North Road tician in 1969 at the start of the last serious round in Monaghan and the three bomb explosions in of Troubles in Northern Ireland and the Border Dublin on 17 May 1974 resulted in the deaths of region and advising him that with our entry into 33 people, including one expectant mother. They the EEC, as it was then known, the Border would also resulted in many serious injuries. Some of disappear in time. However, his only answer to my best friends were among those injured. The me was, “Who would get the thanks for that?” people injured carry those injuries as a burden for Some people who are now thankfully embracing their lifetime. There is not only the issue of the democracy often forget or do not even want to victims but also the grief and human hardship suf- know the commitment of others to our peaceful fered by the families and friends of all those who process. died. While it is my understanding that the vic- I record my welcome and thanks to Monaghan tims of these atrocities and their relations County Council, under Councillor Seań Conlon received some compensation shortly afterwards, from Sinn Feín, and its sub-committee, under the the fact that no one was brought to justice for chairmanship of my colleague, Councillor Mary these desperate atrocities means there is no clos- Carroll, for the recent memorial service and com- ure to the case, and that is unacceptable. memoration of the victims of the Monaghan From my early days of involvement in farm bombing at which President Mary McAleese organisations at county level starting in the mid- unveiled a fitting memorial tower. This means a 1960s and at national and European level from great deal to the family members and the victims the 1970s, I have worked tirelessly, often behind in that they are at least remembered by their local the scenes, to build up good working relation- town and people. ships between people involved in farming and the food industry on both sides of the Border. The People from Omagh and other places where current cross-Border involvement of co-operat- people experienced atrocities attended that ser- ives and private companies in the food industry is vice, and that helps in the healing process. The fruit of that type of co-operation. Omagh bomb, as a result of which 29 people were Since my election to this House I have been killed, including the mother of unborn twins, is involved in the British-Irish Interparliamentary another example of where there is still no closure. Body and other groups. We have come a long While a good deal seems to be known about what way since the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agree- happened and who carried out the deed, the ment and the more recent agreements up to the people concerned are still not behind bars. I men- Good Friday Agreement leading to a much better tion this only to instance how difficult it is, even relationship and understanding between the two with the advent of much more modern tech- countries. We must use this new relationship nology, to bring well, organised terrorists to jus- especially at Taoiseach and Prime Minister level tice. Mobile and other telephone calls can now to secure a realistic and workable agreement that be traced as a matter of form, yet justice has not could allow a new investigation or inquiry poss- been done. ibly based, as the committee suggests, in North- The Barron report came to a number of con- ern Ireland or Great Britain where the relevant clusions including that the Dublin and Monaghan people would have to attend and the inquiry bombings were carried out by loyalist para- would also have the power to compel delivery of militaries based in Belfast, Portadown or Lurgan documents etc. or perhaps in all three using the Sunningdale It is important to remember that these atroci- Agreement as an excuse. The Barron report also ties took place more than 30 years ago. Many states that the loyalist group who carried out the young people or those living away from Dublin bombings in Dublin was capable of doing so with- 1111 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1112

[Mr. Crawford.] Aengus O´ Snodaigh: The format of these state- out the help of any section of the security forces ments is totally inadequate. My colleague, in Northern Ireland, although the report did not Deputy O´ Caolaín, had asked the reason the rule out the involvement of individual members Government did not present the motion, which of the security forces. The report also concluded was the logical thing to do. The sub-committee of that the Garda investigation failed to make full the Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and use of the information it obtained. That is Women’s Right recommended that the resolution regrettable. be passed by the Daíl and Seanad and also by the One must remember the pressure gardaı´ and British Houses of Parliament. Rather than having other people were under at that time. I remember statements on this issue, we should be debating a that time well. I attended the funeral last Friday motion and agreeing on it because the logic is of my uncle who was 92 years of age. He was that all sides of the House should be in agreement buried in the same plot as his son who died at on a motion on this issue. 36 years of age in 1977. I remember that clearly One question I would like answered is why because he was a very close friend of mine; he such a motion was not presented. Is the Govern- was closer to me than either of my two brothers, ment still considering preparing a comprehensive and I do not apologise for saying that. His motion to be passed by the Houses of the brother-in-law could not attend that funeral Oireachtas and then presented to the British because of the danger to his life. Those were the Government for its endorsement in the British times we lived in then. The security forces, North Parliament? The Irish Government needs to tell or South, would not dream of allowing him attend us its intentions on this aspect of the commit- that funeral because of the danger to his life sim- tee’s report. ply because he was in a job he took up simply The committee also recommended that the because it was a job, and not for any other reason. Government consider taking a case against the We sometimes forget the background to this British authorities to the European Court of whole process. Human Rights seeking to compel them to co- I want to see this issue brought to fruition. I operate with the investigation on this aspect of welcome the proposals brought forward by the the report. It is sad and disgraceful that the Jus- justice committee in that context and I realise the tice for the Forgotten group is taking such a case difficulties contained in those proposals, but we rather than the Government. However, I urge the must get agreement. The Barron report was set Government to fully support it with all the neces- up in the hope that the Government would seek sary resources, including financial resources, the co-operation of the British authorities with required to engage in such a court challenge in the Chief Justice’s examination, but we failed to Europe. It is also disgraceful that the families feel get that. Perhaps under the new relationship so let down by this Government that they feel it between Mr. Blair and the Taoiseach we can get necessary to consider legal action against it over some co-operation but unless we get agreement its failure to establish a public inquiry. I hope that information and documentation will be made they take such a case and win so the Government available, it will be the same situation as that will then be compelled to take the logical step of which pertains in some of the other inquiries cur- establishing an inquiry. rently sitting. Those inquires were organised and In 1974, the then Government and the Garda pushed for by certain people, yet when it came to were fatally compromised in respect of the Dub- giving information to those inquiries, they failed lin and Monaghan bombings. During Jack to produce. We all know that. This inquiry can Lynch’s time as Taoiseach up to 1973 and after- only be set up, and finality brought to this situa- wards, British agents were very active in this tion, if we can get agreement that the necessary State. They included the Littlejohn brothers, information will be given. I hope that whatever English criminals who were hired by British intel- this country can do in terms of the Garda investi- ligence to act as agents provocateurs. They also gation and so on will be done as quickly as poss- included British spy John Wyman, who infiltrated ible. In that way the Northern Ireland or United the Garda special branch with the aid of a senior Kingdom authorities cannot use that as an excuse. special branch employee, Patrick Crinnion. While I have total sympathy for all those affected by all four were arrested, the full extent of the Brit- the various atrocities. I remember the time when ish operations in this State in that period has some of these actions would not be condemned never been fully revealed. in council chambers. Thank God we have come a When challenged on this issue at the time, Jack long way from that. We must move forward and Lynch denied having any knowledge of it and try to encourage others to move forward with us later claimed he had forgotten about it. However, in a positive way. there are surviving Ministers from that Govern- ment, particularly the then Minister for Justice, Aengus O´ Snodaigh: I wish to share time with Dessie O’Malley, who could answer questions on Deputy Connolly. the period, on the infiltration of the Garda Sıóch- ańa and on the operations of British agents in Acting Chairman: That is agreed. this State. 1113 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1114

Mr. Crinnion and other Garda agents system- In effect, our intelligence, for what it was atically supplied the British with information on worth, let us down and the report strongly sug- republicans but this process was actually formal- gests that grounds existed for believing that the ised during the term of the Fine Gael-Labour bombers received assistance from Northern Party coalition between 1973 and 1977. British Ireland security force members. The suggestion intelligence became the Garda source of infor- that the RUC special branch and British army mation on loyalists although it was British intelli- were reluctant to compromise relationships with gence that was directing the operations of loyal- some of the suspected bombers is deeply dis- ists, especially operations in the Twenty-Six turbing, especially to the relatives and families of Counties. the victims. Information flowed from the Garda through The “loss” — I question the use of this word official channels, as agreed by the two Govern- — of vital documentation, which is “missing in its ments, and unofficially through British agents in entirety” according to the report, from the the Garda. Obviously the role of the Garda in Department of Justice would provide us with suf- protecting this State from British and loyalist ficient grounds for an inquiry. A vast amount of attacks was therefore fatally and deeply compro- information, running to over 60,000 documents, mised but it was following the lead of its political was suppressed by the British authorities, from masters, the likes of the then Taoiseach, Liam which they supplied a mere ten pages to the Bar- Cosgrave, the Minister for Justice, Paddy ron inquiry. What was contained in the other Cooney, and the Minister for Posts and Tele- 59,990 documents? Surely this knowledge is of graphs, Conor Cruise-O’Brien, who in the wake relevance and should be provided. of the massacres in Dublin and Monaghan The Sunningdale agreement, which led to the blamed republicans for provoking loyalists and establishment of the North’s first cross-party warned people in the Twenty-Six Counties not to Administration, or power-sharing Executive, pro- support republicans. vided the pretext for the bombings. Co-operation It is important to put on record the political was forthcoming on both sides of the Border in context of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the matter of safehouses and general backup which lies at the root of the failure by successive and assistance. Governments to vindicate the rights of the sur- According to Mr. Justice Barron, Garda inves- vivors and the bereaved and at least 14 others tigations were inadequate and characterised by a who died in this State as a result of direct British distinct lack of zeal in pursuing certain lines of military operations or collusion with loyalists. inquiry and co-operating with the RUC. Why was Despite this, the truth about collusion will emerge there a lack of purpose in pursuing the matter? and I commend all relatives and survivors who Even a single murder would be pursued vigor- have campaigned for justice. ously for many years, not to mention 34 murders. A report that was compiled on the basis of miss- Mr. Connolly: The 17 May 1974 is a day that will be remembered by people in both Monaghan ing forensic records, missing files and photo- and Dublin for all the wrong reasons. It will be graphs of suspects is utterly incomplete and must remembered particularly by, the relatives and be found wanting. friends of the 34 innocent people who lost their Nothing less than a full cross-jurisdictional lives on that day. It is a day that will be remem- judicial public inquiry similar to the Lord Saville bered for being the day of the worst atrocity ever inquiry into Derry’s Bloody Sunday killings will perpetrated on the island of Ireland, not merely be sufficient to assuage public concern. Such an in the period of the dark Troubles in Northern inquiry into this most heinous chapter in our his- Ireland but down the centuries. tory would require the full and unqualified co- Thirty years after that day, the Barron report operation of both jurisdictions. Our Government has been issued. It provides us with the most has already indicated its opposition to a full damning indictment of the inactivity of successive judicial inquiry since it feared that it would Irish and British Governments in apprehending become as expensive and long-running as the the perpetrators. In the immediate aftermath of Saville inquiry. I wonder if expense is the only the Dublin and Monaghan atrocities, the contrast thing our Government is worried about. The between our security measures and those of the same Government happily sanctioned tribunal United States in the wake of the events of 11 Sep- after tribunal year after year, yet it questions tember 2001 could not have been more stark. their value for money. We are talking about 34 There were no helicopters to track the bombers, lives. Should we put a price on lives? I have a no closures of sea ports or airports and no road- feeling we have a Government that knows the blocks until the perpetrators had well and truly price of everything and the value of nothing. A disappeared into their lairs. In addition, the State nice, quiet commission of inquiry with a “Do not was not equipped to conduct an adequate foren- disturb” sign on the door will provide no answers. sic analysis of the explosions, leading to the loss The Government and all the parties in this House of vital clues. This was due to the appalling lack should know that. of appreciation of the importance of preserving The relatives and families of the dead are the crime scenes and of prompt collection and aggrieved to learn that the Government will analysis of evidence. shortly announce a public inquiry into the hein- 1115 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1116

[Mr. Connolly.] O’Doherty group and Mr. Mike Mansfield. They ous murders of RUC officers Breen and had a major influence on my decision to support Buchanan. They feel doubly aggrieved that the the call for a public inquiry. We also considered Government will hold this public inquiry while the professional issue of Garda obstruction and it continues to resist the most thorough and far- missing files. We considered the argument about reaching investigation of mass murder on a mass- the cost of the inquiry. A time limit could be ive scale. A fully cross-jurisdictional judicial pub- placed on an inquiry and a cap on legal costs. lic inquiry into our State’s worst-ever atrocity is There has not been a proper investigation and much needed. I commend the relatives, friends there are too many outstanding issues. and lobby groups that have brought this particu- My greatest concern was collusion. The evi- lar episode so far and who have not given up after dence presented to the sub-committee showed 30 years. that the bombings could have been an act of war. If security forces and death squads from another Mr. F. McGrath: I welcome the opportunity to jurisdiction are working together, which I believe address the Da´il on the Barron report and the to have been the case, this must end. One cannot Dublin and Monaghan bombings. I particularly have a peace process unless one deals with those welcome this opportunity as a member of the sub- situations. Cost should never be a factor when committee of the Joint Committee on Justice, dealing with this matter. It is a separate issue. Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights. This was the greatest mass murder in the State Some of the speeches made today on the since the Troubles began. Some 34 people, Barron report and the Dublin and Monaghan including a pregnant woman, and a still-born bombings were a distortion of the facts and a mis- child were killed on that day. There are too many representation of what really happened. I wel- outstanding issues and these can only be come the opportunity to challenge the cosy con- addressed by a full public tribunal of inquiry. sensus, which seems to be emerging. We should Many of the families are elderly so we should look at the facts. The victims are unhappy and move quickly. Too many people are dragging are demanding a public tribunal of inquiry. They their feet on this issue. feel totally let down. Let us accept that before we Almost 30 years have passed since the Dublin go into the detail of the debate. I suggest that and Monaghan bombings occurred and it has Members read the last paragraph of the victims’ taken the bereaved families and survivors more statements, which deals with these issues. than a decade of active campaigning to reach the I was a member of the sub-committee and I point where the Barron report has been pub- regret that I had to take a minority view of some lished and the joint committee’s public hearings of its findings. I regret my opposition to the sub- completed. The goal of a public tribunal of committee’s final report on the Dublin and Mon- inquiry has still to be achieved. The Yorkshire aghan bombings because I believe that a full Television documentary “Hidden Hand — The inquiry under the Tribunals Act 1921 represents the best way forward for everyone. I listened for Forgotten Massacre” claimed that the Garda weeks to the families and heard their views. I investigation into the bombings was wound down came to the view that the only way to deal prop- after 12 weeks. The Barron report confirms this erly with them and to get to the truth of the mat- to be the case and, even more disquieting, finds ter was through a full public inquiry. I felt there that the Monaghan investigation was, to all was no alternative and that we had a duty to intents and purposes, wound down after seven restore confidence in the security forces, both in weeks. The families and survivors know, as a mat- this State and in the North. I also felt that the ter of public record, that there was an unex- public must be satisfied. I listened carefully to the plained collapse in the Garda investigation. Mr. victims and I heard their voices asking the sub- Justice Barron accepts that collusion, in some committee to support them. We also looked at shape or form, did occur. He expresses the belief the idea of the inquiry’s power of investigation. that former RUC sergeant, Mr. John Weir, is a They can be very wide, even abroad. credible witness and was in a position to corrob- Mr. Justice Barron made a good report but that orate many of Mr. Weir’s claims from other was phase one. We considered the serious issues sources. of collusion. We then faced the nightmare that I believe that the farm of Mr. James Mitchell, the Government of the day had failed to show the RUC reservist, at Glenanne, County Armagh, the concern expected of it. That is something for was used to organise the Dublin and Monaghan which we must accept responsibility. Successive bombings. While I also accept the credibility of Governments have let the victims down. The Mr. Colin Wallace and Mr. Fred Holroyd, I Government should put its hands up and accept believe that the judge should have attached more that and not present a different spin to the weight to the documents made available to him, House today. such as letters and lists of loyalists compiled by The sub-committee received very credible oral Mr. Colin Wallace and the notebooks of Mr. Fred and written submissions from people and groups Holroyd. These are important issues. such as the Pat Finucane Centre, Mr. Sea´n I support the families and the victims in Donlon, Mr. Colin Wallace, Mr. Nigel Wylde, demanding that the issue of collusion by the Justice for the Forgotten, the O’Neill family, the security forces of the United Kingdom in the 1117 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1118

Dublin and Monaghan bombings be subjected to patience. If a member of my family had been a international scrutiny and adjudication. I support victim of the bombings I would not be as patient the sections of the sub-committee on the Barron as many of those people. report, which found that there are significant When we talk about victims we are talking internal issues within the State which must be about all victims of the Dublin and Monaghan investigated and that the issue of collusion must bombings, but we should also be respectful of now be fully and properly investigated. These are other victims. Some of the major political parties two recommendations, which I support. sometimes appear to be selective about who they I also have concerns that the information made regard as victims. When I talk about victims of public by the Barron report, the sub-committee the Northern Troubles I am talking about the hearings and the inquest findings establish a 3,800 people who were killed over 30 years. I am prima facie case that the United Kingdom, not selective. Catholic, Protestant and dissenter through its security forces, colluded in the Dublin are included in my broader view. and Monaghan bombings. This is in direct breach In the debates in this House we sometimes lose of article 2 of the European Convention on track of ourselves. It is essential that we listen to Human Rights. It has taken 30 years for the the victims, their families and their legal team, necessary information to emerge to enable a case and support them totally by answering their call to be presented based on factual material as dis- for a full public inquiry. tinct from suspicion and speculation. My other concern is that the United Kingdom, by failing Mr. Durkan: I welcome the opportunity to to co-operate with the Barron inquiry, the sub- speak on this important issue. I compliment the committee hearings and the inquest, has breached Chairman and members of the committee who its obligations under article 2 of the European examined this and the witnesses who came for- Convention on Human Rights to co-operate with ward. It behoves us all to extend our sympathies inquiries into loss of life. many times over to the victims, their families and I am not just blaming the British for this. I those who have campaigned to get to the truth blame some of our own people also. It is that has been so elusive. unacceptable that a former Taoiseach would not I listened with interest to some of my col- attend sub-committee hearings and that people leagues who became very loquacious about the with high profiles in political life do not show European Convention on Human Rights and breaches of it. There were many things that hap- respect to an Oireachtas sub-committee. The pened on this island in the past 30 years that Government of the United Kingdom has failed to repeatedly breached not only the European Con- act in a manner consistent with its international vention on Human Rights but every other pre- obligations to assist in the vindication of the right cept ever thought, read or written about. They to life. It has shunned the inquiry procedures, did not start with the Dublin and Monaghan bom- which exist to protect and vindicate the right to bings, they happened throughout the country, life. These are crucial and important issues. and the sad thing is that all of this happened to The public inquiry should be given two other pursue a cause of one kind or another. If the additional powers. It should have the power to cause was good enough, it was deemed fit to do gather and publish further evidence of which it whatever was necessary to bring about the great- becomes aware relating to collusion in the bom- est atrocity possible to justify one’s existence and bings and a discretion to inquire into any signifi- to point out in some odd way that this was they cant matter concerning the bombings which it way to solve what was wrong. considers to be warranted in the public interest. I was driving around Dublin on the evening of Some of my colleagues who are directly those bombings. I was at Parkgate Street and, like involved have been selective in picking infor- many other people, I was confused. Then the sto- mation from the statement of Justice for the For- ries began to emerge of the broken bodies, the gotten. In the last paragraph of that statement, dead, the mutilated and those who would have to Justice for the Forgotten urges the Oireachtas to carry the scars for the rest of their lives. People call for and the Government to establish in this were asking what had happened, who did it and State nothing less than a public tribunal of inquiry why. Now we know why. It was done to retaliate. into those grave matters, which require immedi- That is the saddest part of our history, one retaliate investigation. It could not be clearer. I hope ation after another, tit for tat killings, bombings the Minister and the Government are listening to and stabbings. There are those who disappeared this debate. My nightmare is that we will have completely whose bodies have never been found another debate about legislation, that the matter and who to this day await for someone to give will go on and on and that the families will have them justice, just as the families of the forgotten to wait and wait. victims on this occasion are trying to do. We must prioritise the needs of the victims. I Everyone remembers where they were on that welcome information which is given to people day but I wonder how many people recognise and I thank those who made detailed submissions how fragile the security of this State was at the to the sub-committee. It was difficult for all the time. We would wake up in the morning won- victims and families and I commend their brav- dering what would happen next, when the fuse ery, integrity and humility. I also commend their would be lit that would set the whole country on 1119 Barron Report: 1 July 2004. Statements 1120

[Mr. Durkan.] Mr. McDowell: When I hear that my stomach fire. That was the climate at the time. When Dub- heaves, as it does when I see some people come lin and Monaghan were visited with these events into this House who were not even born when and our people were killed in such an outrageous some of these events took place and lecture us and vulgar way to demonstrate someone’s reac- about their theory of history. I want to hear an tion, did we ask ourselves at the time if we were explanation and an apology regarding the child doing the right thing, if we were pursuing the who was blown up on Lord Mountbatten’s boat, right tactics? Did we have the right idea in our or to his family, but I hear instead of memorials minds? Does everyone who speaks today remem- erected in County Leitrim. I hear someone say it ber and recognise the conditions that prevailed at was right to look through binoculars and blow that time? People mention the former Taoiseach that boat to pieces when there was a child on it. and the former Minister for Justice. I remember Whatever the differences with Lord well that they found it difficult to gain access to Mountbatten, his family and what they stood for meeting halls across the country to exercise their in history, there was child on that boat and he right to free speech because of the activities of was blown to pieces by people who were later certain people. commemorated and honoured by the so called In case anyone wants to know from where I republican movement in Ireland. An explanation and an apology is due. come on this subject, I was involved, along with I heard some of the remarks made here this other Members of this House, in the campaigns evening about honourable people who stood by on behalf of the Guildford Four, the Birmingham democracy in this State when people were trying Six and the Maguire family. We pursued those to blow democrats to pieces. I agree with Deputy cases because we believed something was wrong Finian McGrath that we cannot be selective and that justice had not been done. We were about people and about victims but there must be right. That does not necessarily mean, however, many, many people who, if they were unfortunate that we should attempt to wash away the awful enough to hear Deputy O´ Snodaigh’s contri- atrocities that were committed, sometimes in the bution to this debate, would have their wounds name of Ireland, sometimes of our flag and some- torn open by the low, callous disregard of history times in the name of those who want to take and the wholly undemocratic attacks on decent revenge against us. Let it be a salutary lesson for people who stood for democracy in this country. us all that, as we move forward in this time of I will not go any further except to say that my international atrocities, one atrocity begets mind went back to a former Member of this another and it is not so easy to divest ourselves Oireachtas, Gordon Wilson, whose daughter was of responsibility at the end of the day. blown to pieces in another atrocity that was carried out about which I do not hear people calling Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for inquiries or tribunals to decide if that was (Mr. McDowell): Parts of this debate were excel- right or wrong. He did not just become a victim, lent and other parts were not. The parts that were he extended the hand of friendship from Ennis- not excellent were those where people have killen to the people of this State. Against all the clouded their minds and obtruded on to our con- grain of what might be expected of someone in sciousness some selective aspect of history about his position, he came down to participate in the which they want to make points, while washing democratic life of this State. He spoke to the their hands of their responsibilities for other people on the political front of the organisation things which people who were very close to them that had killed his daughter and he tried to estab- did which were on a scale equivalent to or worse lish from them the prospects for peace in this than some of the atrocities we have discussed country. His virtues and his memory are a far ´ this evening. more attractive sight than Deputy O Snodaigh I believe the Birmingham Six were innocent. I trying to destroy the reputations of people like also want to say that people were blown to pieces Lynch and O’Malley and others who stood up for in Birmingham and I have never heard anyone the rule of law in this country when it was very come forward and say they want truth and difficult to do so. While I agree with one remark made by accountability about who blew up those innocent Deputy Finian McGrath, I have to disagree with people that evening in that pub. Let us remember another remark when he used the phrase “Garda that there are two sides to many stories and sanc- obstruction” in the context of the timonious humbuggery in this House, such as that 7 o’clock recent inquiry. There was no Garda I have heard attacking people like Jack Lynch obstruction; the Garda Sıóchańa co- and Des O’Malley, saying that they were anti- operated completely with the inquiry. If there are republican when they stood by and defended this documents missing, it is not due to any deliberate Republic against vicious thugs who remain act of the Garda Sıóchańa or any will on the part unconvinced that killing people in the name of of the Garda Sıóchańa to obstruct the pro- Irish unity is wrong. ceedings of this House. I have listened carefully to this debate and such Mr. F. McGrath: What does this have to do of it as merits being remembered and acted upon with the Dublin and Monaghan bombings? I will bring to the attention of the Taoiseach 1121 Vandalism of School 1 July 2004. Property 1122 tomorrow morning. I will be meeting him in the Mr. McDowell: ——was carried out on foot of context of Northern Ireland affairs. It was proper other information which became available to the that this House should consider the report of the murderers from some other source. One group of sub-committee and that the Government should people will be able to enlighten us on that. have an opportunity of hearing what its Members As to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, I had to say about it before taking any further have listened to this debate-—— action on foot of it. I have noted and have considerable sympathy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: So the Minister will with the recommendations of the sub-committee. address it. I know the Taoiseach, if he could have been here today, would say what I am saying, namely, that Mr. McDowell: ——very carefully. As I indi- the Government will now carefully examine how cated to the House at the beginning, I will bring to implement the roadmap laid out by that sub- to the Taoiseach tomorrow all the portions of committee which behaved responsibly and today’s proceedings and all the views that have decently in this matter. been expressed. The Deputy may rest assured I will conclude by re-echoing a point made by that nothing that was said today will be forgotten. Deputy Ardagh. As part of the Weston Park agreement, the Government will shortly establish Adjournment Debate. yet another public tribunal of inquiry. This inquiry is into the death of two RUC officers who ———— came, unarmed, to Dundalk Garda station to try to improve the security situation on this island. Vandalism of School Property. As they travelled north, they were encountered by, an active service unit of the IRA. Their car Mr. Rabbitte: I thank the Leas-Cheann Comh- was hit by, a hail of automatic gunfire. One of airle and his office for permitting me to raise the them came out of the car, unarmed, waving a urgent matter of the vandalism at St. Anne’s pri- white handkerchief. His assailants rushed up, mary school at Fettercairn in my constituency machine-gunned him to the ground and then shot where local parents and teachers fear for the scale him in the head on the road. of damage that may be caused to the school over One of the points arising from that incident is the summer months if it is not secured against the whether there was collusion by any member of depredations of local youths. the Garda Sıóchańa with that ambush. One group Damage costing \32,000 has already been of people know intimately whether there was col- incurred in the year so far and the school has lusion with that ambush and they were those who been broken into on three separate occasions carried out the ambush. When that tribunal of even since a public meeting to address the issue inquiry is established, I look forward to the full, was held on 21 June. Valuable school property is unambiguous, truthful and total co-operative at risk and the capacity of local gardaı´ to protect involvement of the people who carried out that the school is very limited. Windows and doors murder on that day because they are the people have been broken, rooms trashed, classrooms who can tell us whether or not they had collusive flooded and there has been damage to the inad- information from the Garda Sıóchańa or whether equate perimeter fencing. For whatever reason, that atrocity—— the school has become the target of a small number of local youths who are out of control. CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: The Minister has now The campus also accommodates an Obair spoken for five minutes and has not once men- office, two community pre-schools, one VEC tioned the inquiry into the Dublin and Mon- office for adult education and a computer room. aghan atrocities—— A report prepared by the local Garda has led to a proposal put to the Department of Education An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Order, please. and Science for the installation of steel shuttering Allow the Minister without interruption. The on the inside of windows at a cost of \80,000. Minister should conclude. Unfortunately, the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, responded to me on 25 June stating, CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: He is blinded by his “As the funding available under the 2004 summer anti-republican bile. Will the Minister address the works scheme has now been allocated, it is not issue of the inquiry into the Dublin and Mon- possible to consider this application in the current aghan bombings? year.” Teachers and parents fear that this leaves the school very vulnerable. Given the three An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy O´ break-ins since 21 June, the likelihood is that sig- Caolaín is out of order. nificant damage will be done to the school in the interim. Accordingly, I am pleading with the Mr. McDowell: ——or whether that Minister of State to authorise the works recom- atrocity—— mended by the board of management. I accept that this phenomenon of anti-social CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: Will the Minister activity is a complex one and that there is a role address the issue? for other agencies, especially the Garda Sıóchańa. 1123 Orthodontic 1 July 2004. Services 1124

[Mr. Rabbitte.] The normal procedure is for management auth- However, the failure of this Government over orities to report the matter to the local Garda, seven years to implement the 1997 decision to which is best placed to provide practical advice afford divisional status to Tallaght Garda station, and support to the school authorities and to make which would have brought additional manpower, recommendations as to how best to mitigate the vehicles and extra resources, means that Fet- potential risk to the school. tercairn cannot be adequately policed. The destruction of classrooms is regrettably a Mr. Rabbitte: They have done that. phenomenon not restricted to Fettercairn. For example, Scoil Santaín in my constituency has Mr. B. Lenihan: I am aware of that. It is the endured similar destruction while awaiting refur- understanding of the Department that the Garda bishment. A roof has been repeatedly damaged, Sıóchańa in Tallaght has a crime prevention windows kicked in, a boiler damaged and most officer on the staff who works with the manage- recently, an electric cable ripped down and reck- ment authorities in this matter. If the Garda lessly left lying around as a hazard to schoolch- recommends equipment which cannot be pro- ildren. Such wanton destruction is costing the tax- cured from normal funding sources, an appli- payer a lot of money. These schools must be cation for contingency funding can be made to secured through adequate perimeter fencing, the school building section of the Department. shuttered windows and, where feasible, contract The problems at St. Anne’s must be resolved security to be hired in for the most critical hours. and advice from the Garda on all security issues Where, as in the case of Scoil Santaín, refur- presenting at the campus will be considered in the bishment has been approved in principle, it Department. It is open to the school’s manage- should be authorised to be carried out without ment authorities to apply under the 2005 summer further delay. works scheme, details of which will be announced later this year, for funding to implement any I sincerely hope the Minister of State will not costly measures the Garda may recommend to reiterate the sentiments in the letter sent to me address long-term security measures which may last week. Parents and teachers are generally be required at the school. fearful that serious damage costing tens of thousands of euro will be the result if the school is not Mr. Rabbitte: The damage will be done by secured. It gives an indication of how grave the then. The Garda has already made its report. situation is that neither the teachers nor the parents think the employment of a local man in some Mr. B. Lenihan: Has it been furnished to the kind of community employment scheme to pro- school principal? vide security is acceptable. They believe he would be at risk from those local youths. Mr. Rabbitte: Yes. I suggest it would be possible for the Depart- ment to authorise the contracting in for the criti- Orthodontic Services. cal hours of a contract security service. Other- Mr. Neville: Thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comh- wise, the cost of the damage which will ultimately airle, for allowing me to raise this important mat- be charged to the taxpayer, will greatly exceed ter, namely, the orthodontic service in the Mid- what is proposed by the school principal in a sub- Western Health Board, in particular the recent mission to the Department. I ask the Minister of report on the service submitted to a meeting of State to give us some hope this evening. the health board on 4 June 2004. The orthodontic service in the mid-west region has been in diffi- Minister of State at the Department of Health culty for some time, while the orthodontic service and Children (Mr. B. Lenihan): I thank the generally, which has been discussed on numerous Deputy for raising the matter as it affords me an occasions by the Joint Committee on Health and opportunity to outline to the House the position Children, is a disgrace and a scandal as a result regarding the severe difficulties the school com- of developments since 1999. Prior to that date, munity of St. Anne’s primary school in Fet- an excellent service had been developing but was tercairn is experiencing as a result of wanton destroyed by politicking in the dental community. vandalism. In a report by Dr. David Spary, consultant The Minister for Education and Science is fully orthodontist at the Burton Hospitals NHS Trust, aware of the circumstances at St. Anne’s primary Burton-on-Trent, the orthodontic service in the school in Fettercairn, Tallaght, following rep- mid-west region was described as being of an resentations he received from his colleagues, excellent standard until 1999. Since then, access Deputies O’Connor and Conor Lenihan. He can to the service has declined due to staff retention well appreciate the concerns of the school com- difficulties and patients are experiencing long munity in question at the wanton vandalism of delays for assessment and treatment. The report school property. There can be no place in a civi- recommends a range of measures needed to lised society for the wanton destruction of prop- address this, including a revised grading system, erty. It is of the utmost importance that the per- the restoration of the training system linked to petrators of such destruction are apprehended the dental hospital and the appointment of and face the full rigours of the law. another specialist post. The Mid-Western Health 1125 Orthodontic 1 July 2004. Services 1126

Board sought a meeting with the Department of who progressed to achieve a registrable qualifi- Health and Children to discuss the report and I cation. It may have been perceived as a problem ask the Minister of State to clarify whether it will by the SAC that clinics were being filled with take place. unqualified, poorly trained personnel. Dr. Spary Mr. Ted McNamara, the orthodontic consult- is convinced, however, that this is not the case. ant in the mid-west region, set up a treatment Dr. Ian Dowling stated that the national ortho- facility in 1985. Non-consultant grade dentists dontic service is in crisis. This crisis has been were appointed and trained to carry out ortho- created by the incompetence and dishonesty of dontic procedures. Three dentists completed the Department of Health and Children and the higher specialist training leading to a higher greed of the dental health schools in Cork and qualification in orthodontics in the department. Dublin. In March, the Joint Committee on Health Following an application to the specialist advisory and Children invited the Minister for Health and committee, SAC, in orthodontics of the Royal Children to discuss the orthodontic service, College of Surgeons in England, the department specifically the recommendations of the previous was visited in 1987 and the post was passed as joint committee on orthodontics. The Minister suitable for training. has refused to meet the joint committee. Dr. Spary stated he had good reason to conclude that the quality of treatment provided dur- Mr. B. Lenihan: I am replying on behalf the ing the period prior to 1999 was excellent. He Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mar- noted that he had seen a large number of study tin. The provision of orthodontic treatment to eli- casts taken during this period of patients who had gible persons in the Mid-Western Health Board treatment within the department. In addition, one is the statutory responsibility of that board in the trainee was awarded the gold medal by the Royal first instance. The Minister is aware of the waiting College of Surgeons, Edinburgh, and her cases list for orthodontic treatment in the Mid-Western were published in the British Journal of Ortho- Health Board. He notes that some improvements dontics. The award of this medal, according to have been made in the service. For example, Dr. Spary, reflects highly not only upon the between December 2001 and March 2004, the trainee in question but also on the standard of assessment and treatment waiting lists in the teaching she received. He also had an opportunity board have been reduced by 999 and 404, to discuss the situation with the president of the respectively. The Department and the Mid-Western Health Irish Dental Association, who described the work Board have worked hard to get more children done in the department during that time as a into orthodontic treatment and their efforts have ‘blue ribbon service’. Dr. Spary also notes that he been rewarded. In December 2001, the chief had an opportunity to discuss the service with the executive officer of the Mid-Western Health general manager of the acute hospital services Board informed the Department that 1,593 chil- who confirmed that no complaints were made dren were receiving treatment in the board. At about the service at that time. the end of March 2004, the chief executive officer In 1999, the Department of Health and Chil- informed my Department that 1,827 children dren stopped training orthodontic specialists in were receiving treatment. This means an the mid-west and did not replace the service. additional 234 children are obtaining treatment in Since then, waiting lists in the region have the board’s orthodontic service. increased. A dispute has arisen concerning who The Minister has taken a range of measures to should be on the waiting list. The Department has improve the orthodontic services both nationally stated that people should not be on a waiting list and in the Mid-Western Health Board. The grade if no service is available to treat them. It is a dis- of specialist in orthodontics has been created in grace that people in need of treatment are being the health board orthodontic service. The removed from a waiting list for this reason. creation of this new grade will attract orthodon- The continuation of orthodontic services at a tists to work in the health service on a long-term level equivalent to that in 1998 is being prevented basis. by a reduction in the number of personnel work- In 2003, the Department and the health boards ing in the orthodontic department in Limerick. funded 13 dentists from various health boards for This appears to have been caused by a withdrawal specialist in orthodontics qualifications at training of approval of training posts, which in turn makes programmes here and at three separate universit- it much less attractive for dentists to work in the ies in the United Kingdom. These 13 trainees for department because they have no chance of the public orthodontic service are additional to receiving training to the level of master of ortho- the six dentists who commenced training in 2001. dontics. The position may, however, have been There is, therefore, an aggregate of 19 dentists in improved recently by recognition of the grade of specialist training for orthodontics. orthodontic specialist. Furthermore, the commitment of the Depart- There is no doubt that the model for the pro- ment to training development is manifested in the vision of orthodontic treatment established in funding provided to both the training of specialist Limerick was highly successful. It produced a clinical staff and the recruitment of a professor high number of well trained specialists and a good in orthodontics for the Cork Dental School. This quality training programme for some trainees appointment at the school will facilitate the 1127 Water and 1 July 2004. Sewerage Schemes 1128

[Mr. B. Lenihan.] Mr. B. Lenihan: This funding is enabling development of an approved training programme boards to provide both additional sessions for leading to specialist qualification in orthodontics. existing staff and purchase treatment from The chief executive officer of the Southern private specialist orthodontic practitioners. The Health Board has reported that the professor Mid-Western Health Board was allocated an commenced duty on 1 December 2003. In recog- additional \451,000 from this fund for the treat- nition of the importance of this post at Cork Den- ment of cases in this way. tal School the Department has given approval in A total of 1,827 patients were obtaining treat- principle to a proposal from the school to further ment in the board at the end of March 2004. substantially improve the training facilities there Orthodontics is unique in that the treatment per- for orthodontics. This project should see the con- iod for a child is between 18 and 24 months, and struction of a large orthodontic unit and support each year thousands of children with varying facilities and will ultimately support an enhanced needs are placed on assessment waiting lists. This teaching and treatment service to the wider presents challenges for services delivery and will region under the leadership of the professor of continue to do so. orthodontics. However, the Minister’s aim is to continue to make progress and to develop a high quality, Mr. Neville: If the excellent regime in place in reliable and sustainable service in the Mid-West- 1999 had been left alone, we would not have a ern Health Board and all the other boards for waiting list. children and their parents.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Neville is Mr. Neville: Will the Minister of State respond out of order. to the committee? He will have been promoted before that happens. Mr. B. Lenihan: The Deputy will have heard the statistics on the waiting lists in the health Water and Sewerage Schemes. board. Mr. P. Breen: I thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving me the opportunity to raise this issue. We Mr. Neville: We know what has happened to are all aware of the difficulties encountered by Triona McNamara since 1999. people as they try to secure planning permission to build houses in rural villages and towns and we Mr. B. Lenihan: Orthodontic initiative funding \ are all conscious of raw sewage entering our riv- of 4.698 million was provided to the health ers and seas. It is in our interest that our seas are boards in 2001. This has enabled health boards protected for future generations. to recruit additional staff, engage the services of The Quilty, Scarriff and Feakle sewerage private specialist orthodontic practitioners to schemes have been grouped and are located in treat patients and build additional orthodontic sensitive areas in County Clare. Quilty, which facilities. Under this initiative, the Mid-Western \ includes the village of Mullagh, is an excellent Health Board received an additional 513,000 in fishing and tourist spot on the Atlantic coastline. funding. Many tourists visit each year. The Minister of In June 2002, my Department provided \ State will be familiar with the area as he has many additional funding of 5 million from the national relations there. It is a shame that both local treatment purchase fund to health boards specifi- people and tourists must deal with the sight and cally for the provision of orthodontic treatment. smell of raw sewage. The Quilty scheme has been approved for Mr. Neville: Would the Minister of State like some time and the only reason it is being delayed to put money on that? is Clare County Council is awaiting a foreshore licence which was applied for on 18 November Mr. B. Lenihan: The treatment purchase fund 2003. It is unfortunate that the application is also provides the best of value for money. delaying the Scarriff and Feakle schemes. These two schemes were in the part A process for a con- Mr. Neville: Does the Minister of State main- siderable time but were approved by the county tain that? council last December. An application relating to the schemes is before the Department of the Mr. B. Lenihan: Yes. I wish Oppositions Environment, Heritage and Local Government Members would wake up, realise how the health and approval is being sought to go to tender. service can be reformed and stop chasing the The current situation regarding the Scarriff last trolley. scheme, which includes the village of Tuamgraney, is unacceptable. The present facility Mr. Neville: I am referring specifically to is located at Druidsboro in Scarriff, adjacent to orthodontics. the docks, which is the site of construction works for the upgrade and extension of the marina by An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is out Waterways Ireland Limited which has responsi- of order. bility for inland waterways. It is proposed that the 1129 Industrial 1 July 2004. Accidents 1130 treatment effluent will be discharged into the Funding has also been provided under the ser- Scarriff river. viced land initiative to bring additional residential The schemes, when implemented, will remove sites on stream as rapidly as possible to meet septic tanks and private waste water treatment housing needs at a number of locations through- systems from a substantial number of houses and out the county, including Gillogue, Clarecastle, this will have a significant environmental benefit Clonlara and Tulla. A large number of towns and for all three towns. Many applications for villages in Clare are benefiting from the drive to schemes are being held up by the planning pro- bring our water and sewerage infrastructure up to cess. Even where lands are zoned for the purpose, a modern standard. they cannot be built on because planners regard With regard to the Quilty, Scarriff and Feakle the applications as premature. A sewerage schemes, they are included in the investment pro- scheme was undertaken at Sixmilebridge some gramme and have been approved to go to con- times ago and it has benefited the town greatly. struction. Tender documents for the schemes, Significant building is taking place, which is a which are being advanced as a grouped design- boost to the local economy. build-operate project, are awaited in the Unfortunately, in recent times the number of Department. schemes being undertaken has slowed. It is unacceptable that, because a foreshore licence is Mr. P. Breen: The council says the Department awaited for the Quilty scheme, the other schemes is holding up the schemes. are also delayed. I am delighted that my colleagues from Clare, Senators Daly and Dooley, Mr. B. Lenihan: Once these are received from are present to give me support on this issue. Clare County Council and approved, the council The delay in these schemes is, in turn, delaying will be able to invite tenders for the schemes. Our other schemes, particularly the Labasheeda, function in Government is to provide funding for Cooraclare and Carrigaholt group scheme. I hope the schemes and that has been done. I assure the the Minister of State will respond regarding the Deputy I have listened carefully to what he has foreshore licence, which is creating the problem, said and I will advise the Minister for the Envir- and that the Minister for the Environment, Heri- onment, Heritage and Local Government to take tage and Local Government will fast-track the account of the issues raised by him. I will also schemes. Perhaps the Minister of State will have ensure the examination of the tender documents good new given that his colleagues are present. takes place as quickly as possible, once they are received in the Department to advance these Mr. B. Lenihan: I am replying on behalf of the schemes. Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Industrial Accidents. I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I note the substantial interest of Senators Daly and Mr. Costello: My matter relates to a fire in an Dooley in it. I will first outline the major invest- empty Shell depot at Dublin Port last Sunday. ment being made by my colleague, the Minister The fire lasted three hours and the Dublin fire for the Environment, Heritage and Local brigade had to use specialist equipment to quench Government, in improving water services infra- it. Local people heard an explosion prior to the structure throughout the country and, particularly fire. The depot had been used to store tar and in Clare, under the national development plan. bitumen for road surfacing. It is located near oil Last May, the Minister published the water ser- and petrol storage tanks and the Irish Ferries vices investment programme 2004 — 2006, which dock. It is fortunate the fire took place when the comprises 869 schemes at different stages of dock was quiet, as normally many people and cars development, with a total investment of \5 travel to and from the ferries while a small num- billion. Almost 150 new projects worth \556 mill- ber of people work in the vicinity. ion have been added to the programme since last However, extensive damage was caused and a year. It is the most significant milestone yet in the pall of thick, black, acrid smoke stretched across push to bring our water services infrastructure up Dublin Bay and the docklands. This is a serious to world standard. matter. Irish Shell indicated it would conduct an The total allocated to County Clare under the investigation, but that is not adequate. We must latest phase of the programme is \194 million, a have an independent, external body conducting substantial investment that extends to 44 individ- the investigation. We cannot simply have the ual schemes. It includes major sewerage projects people in whose depot the fire started being for Ennis-Clarecastle as well as Ballyvaughan, wholly responsible for the investigation. Corofin, Doolin, Kilkee, Kilrush, Carrigaholt, That is why I put down this motion — to call Labasheeda, Cooraclare, Shannon town, Broad- on the Minister to ensure that an investigation is ford, Ennistymon, Liscannor, Miltown Malbay conducted by him or under his auspices. Then we and Spanish Point. It also includes major water can be sure of finding out the cause of and threat supply schemes for Ennis, Newmarket-on-Fergus from the fire in order to put the proper health and the Lisdoonvarna extension to Ballyvaughan and security provisions in place to prevent such a and Fanore and the west Clare regional water fire happening again. We can then be sure that supply scheme. those working, travelling or living in the area can 1131 The 1 July 2004. Adjournment 1132

[Mr. Costello.] commenced and the fire was quickly contained be safe. The residential areas of Dublin are and brought under control. Damping down and encroaching upon the port area and while there cooling operations continued until the area was may be nobody living in the port there are people made safe. Dublin Fire Brigade personnel have living near it. Large numbers of people also work been trained to deal with this type of incident in in and travel through the port. a safe manner and at no time during the incident There is a huge amount of petrol and oil, very were any of the fire fighters in danger. There was inflammable fuel, stored in the docks and if a fire no injury to anyone at the fire ground nor at any catches in one empty depot and travels to one of stage was there a danger to the public. That is those massive tanks of fuel a huge disaster could a tremendous tribute to the professionalism and take place. Such a disaster would not just thre- efficiency of the fire service in Dublin. aten the local environment but the livelihoods of Dublin City Council, including Dublin Fire many people in the area and the city of Dublin. Brigade, have regular meetings with Irish Pet- We have a potentially serious problem on our roleum Importers Association and the Dublin doorstep and we need to be cognisant of this Port Company to review fire safety in Dublin warning, which shows what might happen if there Port and to ensure there are sufficient measures were a serious explosion or fire here. available in terms of procedures, fixed and What steps does the Minister intend to take to mobile equipment, and other resources to deal ensure there is a proper, full, thorough, compre- with incidents in the port. The fire brigade, in hensive and independent investigation into this? conjunction with the IPIA and the Dublin Port What steps will he take to ensure something like Company, carries out detailed pre-planning for this does not happen again? foreseeable incidents as well as regular exercises. The incident in question will be discussed and Mr. B. Lenihan: I thank Deputy Costello for debriefed in the near future between the parties, raising this matter. I am replying on behalf of my and any lessons learned, whether in terms of a colleague, the Minister for the Environment, need for improved procedures, equipment, or any Heritage and Local Government. Like Deputy other matter, will be promptly acted upon. I Costello and other citizens of Dublin I was very reassure the Deputy that those procedures are concerned by the incident. I express my appreci- already in place. ation of the professional and efficient response of Regarding health and safety requirements at Dublin Fire Brigade to this incident, which Dublin Port, it is a matter for the companies ensured that the fire came under control quickly involved, in the first instance, as well as the Dub- and the possibility of a major incident was lin Port Authority as licensing authority, to averted. That is a tremendous tribute to the pro- ensure that all health and safety requirements are fessionalism of the fire service in Dublin. in place and the Minister of the Environment, The initial call to the fire brigade was received Heritage and Local Government has no strict at 15.19 and the brigade immediately mobilised statutory function in the matter. two water tenders, one foam tender, one turn- However, the Health and Safety Authority, table ladder, an ambulance and a district officer. Shell and the Dublin Port Authority initiated a An additional two water tenders were mobilised, joint investigation into the incident on the day it with a further water tender and the foam support occurred, which is currently ongoing. I can con- unit being mobilised shortly afterwards. The first firm that international consultants have also been fire brigade appliance arrived at the incident at brought into the investigation at the company’s 15.23, within four minutes, and on arrival found expense. Following this investigation and the they were facing an oil-bitumen fire extending debriefing with the fire brigade, the co-operation approximately 1,000 m2 and engulfing three bitu- of all concerned will be sought to consider the men tanks. The fire produced large amounts of lessons learnt from this incident and to endeavour black smoke with flames about 60 feet high. to ensure, as far as possible, that a similar inci- Dublin Fire Brigade initiated the pre-deter- dent will not occur again. mined response for this type of incident, which involved setting up water and foam monitors. The Da´il adjourned at 7.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m With these monitors in place the foam attack on Tuesday, 6 July 2004. 1133 Questions— 1 July 2004. Written Answers 1134

Written Answers. I understand that the national conference centre, NCC, steering group met on 21 June last and ———— considered the reports of the NCC financial and economic standing/technical ability panel and the The following are questions tabled by Members NCC site assessment panel. In line with the for written response and the ministerial replies recommendations set out in the two reports, I am received from the Departments [unrevised]. informed the steering group has taken decisions as to the qualification of candidates and their sites Questions Nos. 1 to 11, inclusive, answered and has so advised the Office of Public Works orally. which will notify candidates accordingly. In the meantime, as I informed the House on Tourism Review Report. 25 May last, the Office of Public Works and its 12. Mr. McCormack asked the Minister for advisers are continuing to work on the prep- Arts, Sport and Tourism the recommendations of aration of the very detailed documentation the tourism review report which have to date required before that next stage can be initiated. been implemented; and if he will make a state- In addition, consultants have been engaged by ment on the matter. [19694/04] the OPW to undertake a public sector benchmarking exercise, as required by the Department 29. Ms Burton asked the Minister for Arts, of Finance’s interim guidelines for the provision Sport and Tourism the number of meetings there of infrastructure and capital investments through have been to date of the Tourism Action Plan public private partnerships. I am told this is likely 2003-2005 implementation group; the actions to take some weeks to complete. taken as a result of these meetings; and if he will The timeframe prepared following the Govern- make a statement on the matter. [19735/04] ment’s decision to secure the provision of a Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. national conference centre, and which envisaged O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. that a final decision from Government could be 12 and 29 together. secured in the autumn, was an indicative time- The high level tourism action plan implemen- frame, based on the information and assumptions tation group, which I appointed to advise on and available at the time. The procurement process drive forward the recommendations made by the that was subsequently undertaken is, as one tourism policy review group, has had five meet- would expect for a project of this scale, necess- ings to date. The first meeting of the group was arily complex. In addition to the procedural in February 2004 and its next meeting is sched- requirements of the PPP process itself, the uled for 19 July 2004. development of the detailed design and contract In line with its terms of reference, the imple- documentation is demanding, with details requir- mentation group will report to me on a six ing careful scrutiny and consideration. monthly basis. As I advised the House on 25 May As I previously informed the House, it is now last, the first report of the group is due in August unlikely that the procurement process will be suf- and will outline its work to date and set out pro- ficiently advanced to facilitate a Government gress in implementing the action plan. I under- decision in the autumn and while I would hope stand that the intention is that the first report will to be in that position before the end of the year, include an activity update on the actions recom- given the complexity of the process, I am reluc- mended by the tourism policy review. tant to be categorical. My priority is to have this project brought to a conclusion at the earliest National Conference Centre. possible date . However, it is important that the relevant procedures and guidelines pertaining to 13. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Arts, Sport the process are closely observed and that nothing and Tourism if the report to the chairman of the is done that might jeopardise its successful national conference centre steering group by the conclusion. assessment panel considering the four submissions for the provision of the national con- Crime Against Tourists. ference centre is complete; if he has received a copy of this report; the latest situation with 14. Mr. Coveney asked the Minister for Arts, regard to the development of the conference cen- Sport and Tourism his views on the level of crime tre in view of this report; and if he will make a directed against tourists here; the response of his statement on the matter. [19728/04] Department to crime against tourists; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19695/04] 27. Mr. Ring asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if he will be in a position to make a Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. decision with regard to the provision of a national O’Donoghue): We have no official statistics on conference centre before the end of 2004; and if crime against tourists. From anecdotal reports he will make a statement on the matter. and the general feedback received by the tourism [19705/04] agencies, there would not appear to be any significant incidence of such crime in Ireland. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Last year, the tourist victim support service, O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. TVSS, dealt with some 357 cases of crimes against 13 and 27 together. 1135 Questions— 1 July 2004. Written Answers 1136

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] Tourism Industry. tourists, as against 344 in 2002. I understand the 16. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, majority of the cases, 188, were in regard to theft Sport and Tourism if he has satisfied himself but, regretfully, some 22 cases involved violence. regarding the competitiveness of the Irish tourism These 22 cases should be seen in the context of industry; and if he will make a statement on the well over six million visitors to Ireland in 2003. matter. [19769/04] I deplore any incidents of crime against tourists, who are a vulnerable group away from their 39. Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Arts, Sport home country and without a network of family or and Tourism his views on the fact that continuing friends to support them. Like me, most Irish price rises across many sectors of the tourism people have a natural repugnance for crimes industry serve as a deterrent to visitors coming against those who are guests to our shores. It here; his further views on the rise in the price of offends against the fundamental traditions of wel- a pint, in view of the potential negative impli- come which are a deep rooted cultural character- cations for the hospitality industry here; if he will istic of our people. The establishment of the raise the possibility of introducing price controls TVSS was, in itself, an expression of that concern. in the drinks trade with the Department of Fin- In the past, I have called on the wider tourism ance; and if he will make a statement on the mat- sector to give greater financial support to the ter. [19734/04] TVSS and I again repeat that appeal. I applaud 80. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, and support the excellent work of the tourist vic- Sport and Tourism if he can, directly or through tim support service and I am encouraged by the bodies or agencies under his direction, take steps support and close co-operation it continues to to ensure that the tourism industry here remains receive from the Garda Sıóchańa. Faílte Ireland \ competitive; and if he will make a statement on contributes some 25,000 a year towards the run- the matter. [19910/04] ning costs of the TVSS. 81. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, Irish Genealogical Project. Sport and Tourism if he has satisfied himself regarding the competitiveness of the tourism 15. Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for Arts, industry with particular reference to the ability to Sport and Tourism the position in regard to the compete with other tourism locations throughout Irish Genealogical Project, commenced in 1990 the world; and if he will make a statement on the with a view to completion by 1994; if the project matter. [19911/04] is now complete and comprehensive in its coverage of all relevant genealogical information; and 82. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, if not, the reason therefor. [17506/04] Sport and Tourism if he has taken steps, directly or indirectly, to maintain the competitiveness of Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. the tourism industry; and if he will make a state- O’Donoghue): Responsibility for the Irish ment on the matter. [19912/04] Genealogical Project passed from the Depart- ment of the Taoiseach to the Department of Arts, Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands in October O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. 1997. The Irish Genealogical Project’s primary 16, 39, 80, 81 and 82 together. aim is to include all church and civil records up As I have indicated many times since my to 1900. The number of records involved is in appointment as Minister for Arts, Sport and excess of 20 million. To date, 76% of church Tourism, I share the concern of most people records and 40% of civil records have been inde- involved in the tourism industry regarding the xed by the 35 designated Irish Genealogy Lim- decreasing levels of satisfaction, evident in visitor ited centres. attitude surveys, about the value for money The rate of inputting of records was consider- offered by the overall tourism experience in ably facilitated by the assistance of participants in Ireland. One of the strongest messages from the aFA´ S work experience programme. The number tourism policy review group was that restoring of participants on this scheme has decreased con- competitiveness is the major challenge facing the siderably in recent years, resulting in a slower tourism sector and that the industry itself must rate for the inputting of records. I understand offer better value to its customers if it is to maxi- from the project managers that they expect 90% mise the opportunities for future growth. of church records will be completed by the end The review group confirmed that there is no of 2007. Due to the prioritising of the indexing of immediate, single or easy solution to addressing church records, a target date for completion of concerns about competitiveness and listed some civil records has not been determined. ten specific actions that require responses from The IGL website provides for a central sign- both the private and public sectors. Its recom- posting index link which gives basic information mendations covered a broad range of actions and and directs inquiries to the relevant county included proposals in regard to taking responsi- centres. In the case of nine centres, the detailed bility for restoring competitiveness, inflation, database can be accessed by the user. This facility benchmarking, customer relationship manage- is being expanded to comprehend all county ment, management capability, high standards for locations. competitive advantage and training. 1137 Questions— 1 July 2004. Written Answers 1138

My role is to work, in so far as it lies within my of the vehicle registration tax, VRT, repayment power, towards ensuring a coherent action plan is scheme, which contributes to the development of implemented quickly and effectively. To this end, a critical tourism product and stimulates a com- I have established the high level implementation petitive environment within the car rental sector. group to advise and assist in driving forward and monitoring the recommended actions set out in Question No. 19 answered with Question No. 8. the report. The first report of the implementation group is due in August and we will have to await European Cultural Identity. that report before we can assess the impact of the 20. Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for Arts, action plan on competitiveness and value for Sport and Tourism if his attention has been money. drawn to a call from over 80 artists and cultural I made my views on the drink prices issue quite leaders from across Europe for a strengthened clear in a public statement on 26 May in which I European cultural identity; his views on the sig- called on brewers and the licensed trade to natories’ belief that the EU serves primarily an seriously consider the potential negative impacts economic and monetary purpose to the detriment of proceeding with drink prices which would only of a European cultural identity; if he has received exacerbate our existing competitive disadvantage and replied to the letter; and if he will make a in this area. While the issue of price control is a statement on the matter. [19738/04] matter for the Minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment, at this juncture I would not be in Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. favour of going back down the road of price con- O’Donoghue): I assume the Deputy is referring trols. Public debate and consumer pressure may to a communication addressed to the President of be a more efficacious way of dealing with this the European Commission recently from a group type of issue. of artists regarding the importance of culture in the European Union. My office has not received Swimming Pool Projects. this correspondence. I am pleased that the new 17. Mr. Deenihan asked the Minister for Arts, constitution continues to recognise the import- Sport and Tourism when Ballybunion health and ance of our common cultural heritage as well as leisure centre will proceed to tender stage; and if the cultural diversity of member states in a newly he will make a statement on the matter. enlarged Europe. [19741/04] Tourism Promotion. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): Kerry County Council has submit- 21. Mr. P. Breen asked the Minister for Arts, ted to my Department the contract documents for Sport and Tourism the implications for tourism a new swimming pool in Ballybunion. This docu- promotion of the decision to invest moneys from mentation has been examined by my Depart- the International Fund for Ireland in the Border ment’s technical advisers, the Office of Public counties; and if he will make a statement on the Works, and is now under consideration in my matter. [19689/04] Department. 25. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if the \4 million in funding Tourism Industry. provided from the International Fund for Ireland 18. Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for for new tourism facilities and community centres Arts, Sport and Tourism the number of tourists will have an impact on tourism promotion in Bor- to Ireland who rent vehicles whilst on holiday der counties; and if he will make a statement on here; and if he will make a statement on the mat- the matter. [19737/04] ter. [19692/04] Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. O’Donoghue): I am informed by Fa´ilte Ireland 21 and 25 together. that the number of overseas holiday visitors using The International Fund for Ireland is an inde- a hired car while in Ireland in 2003 was 799,000. pendent international organisation established by With an average occupancy of just over two visit- the British and Irish Governments in 1986 and ors per hired car, this represents an estimated administered by a joint secretariat, the Irish 383,000 car hire transactions. Due to the signifi- element of which is provided by the Department cant contribution made to the car hire sector by of Foreign Affairs. My Department, with Fa´ilte the American market, the number of overseas Ireland, contributes to the fund’s tourism visitors using hired cars in Ireland has declined programme. since 2000. However, there is evidence that the On 18 June 2004, the International Fund for recovery in the sector is continuing in 2004, and Ireland announced that the board had approved with North American visits ahead of 2000 for the funding of almost \4 million to support approxi- first time during the first four months of this year, mately 20 community based reconciliation and the prospects for the sector are encouraging. job creation projects throughout the southern The Government is supportive of the car rental Border counties. While these projects will, in the sector and has demonstrated this by the operation main, be funded under the regeneration of 1139 Questions— 1 July 2004. Written Answers 1140

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] ing group is to ensure that all the legal, financial, deprived areas programme and the economic planning and procurement requirements are met development programme, some of them have a in an efficient and timely manner so that actual significant tourism dimension and will thus play construction work can get under way by the tar- a vital role in attracting an increased number of get date of July 2006. The chairman of the steer- visitors to the Border area. The fund’s tourism ing group reports regularly to me on the group’s programme, with its focus on tourism projects deliberations. that demonstrate a capacity to create employ- The IRFU and FAI have reached agreement ment and encourage cross-Border and cross-com- on formation of a special purpose vehicle under munity activities which are economically and the Companies Act to deliver the project and the environmentally sustainable, has made an legal formalities to give effect to this are nearing important contribution to the tourism infrastruc- completion. A project manager has been selected. ture of the Northern Ireland counties and the The text of a formal grant agreement between my southern Border counties, and to tourism market- Department, on the one hand, and the IRFU and ing and human resource development initiatives FAI, on the other, is being finalised and will soon in the region. be ready for signature.

National Stadium. Tourism Industry. 22. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Arts, 23. Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the position in regard to dis- Sport and Tourism the projected tourist numbers cussions, negotiations or consultations he has had to Ireland from European Union states for the with the representatives of the various sporting 2004 season; and if he will make a statement on bodies in regard to the national stadium; and if he the matter. [19688/04] will make a statement on the matter. [19770/04] 26. Mr. Hogan asked the Minister for Arts, 24. Mr. Perry asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the projected North American Sport and Tourism the progress made to date tourist numbers for the 2004 season; and if he will with regard to the Lansdowne Road stadium make a statement on the matter. [19685/04] refurbishment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19709/04] 36. Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism his views on the latest CSO 32. Ms Lynch asked the Minister for Arts, statistics on tourist numbers to Ireland for the Sport and Tourism if the formal grant agreement first quarter of 2004; his further views on whether between his Department and the IRFU and the the numbers demonstrate a significant recovery FAI for the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road in numbers visiting Ireland from abroad; the has been finalised; and if he will make a state- efforts his Department is making to attract an ment on the matter. [19730/04] increased number of tourists from other Euro- pean countries specifically; and if he will make a 37. Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Arts, statement on the matter. [19726/04] Sport and Tourism the latest contact he has had or report he has received from the Lansdowne 38. Mr. Murphy asked the Minister for Arts, stadium project steering group, constituted to co- Sport and Tourism the amount to be spent in ordinate the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road; 2004 promoting Ireland as a tourist destination and if he will make a statement on the matter. abroad; and if he will make a statement on the [19729/04] matter. [19715/04] Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. O’Donoghue): I propose to take Questions Nos. 22, 24, 32 and 37 together. 23, 26, 36 and 38 together. The Government decided on 27 January 2004 Government investment in support of tourism to provide financial support for a joint IRFU-FAI this year will be well over \110 million. Of this, project to redevelop Lansdowne Road stadium. I almost \70 million will be spent in general sup- arranged for the establishment of a project steer- port for the marketing and promotion activities ing group to oversee its delivery by the two sport- of the State tourism agencies, including the larg- ing bodies. Since then, my Department has been est ever provision for the tourism marketing fund working with the IRFU and the FAI within the of \31.5 million. This represents a strong endorse- forum of the steering group and bilaterally to ment of the performance of the two agencies and ensure implementation of the decision. the tourism industry generally in delivering value The Lansdowne stadium project steering group for this substantial Exchequer investment. is chaired by the Secretary General of my Depart- On the basis of such a significant Exchequer ment and comprises representatives from the investment, Tourism Ireland and Fa´ilte Ireland Department, the Office of Public Works, the are rolling out a comprehensive range of pro- IRFU and the FAI. It has held six meetings. grammes and activities across all product niches There is regular contact between the parties and markets to help realise the ambitious target involved to ensure that all aspects of the project of 4% growth in visitor numbers again this year. are progressing smoothly. A priority for the steer- Key to achieving this target will be Irish tourism’s 1141 Questions— 1 July 2004. Written Answers 1142 performance in two of our most important mar- positive growth in our key tourism markets, kets, continental Europe and North America. particularly in terms of winning market share Last year, visitor numbers from continental against stiff international competition. I am confi- Europe were at record levels. The North Amer- dent that, if the industry maintains its focus on ican market also performed strongly in the after- promoting and delivering a value for money tour- math of the war in Iraq and the SARS crisis. In ism product, Ireland can continue to outperform 2003 we had 6.3 million visitors to our shores, of its nearest competitors into the future. whom almost 2.5 million came from either continental Europe or North America. Question No. 24 answered with Question In revenue terms, these two markets account No. 22. for over 50% of our overseas earnings. This year, Tourism Ireland has once again focused its mar- Question No. 25 answered with Question keting programme on those segments of the con- No. 21. tinental European and North American markets which offer the greatest potential. Close to 60% Question No. 26 answered with Question of its marketing budget is being deployed to tar- No. 23. get 6% and 8% growth in numbers from continental Europe and North America, respectively, Question No. 27 answered with Question in 2004. The early indications from these markets No. 13. have been positive and provide grounds for optimism for the remainder of the year. Sport and Recreational Development. For the first four months of 2004 the Central 28. Ms O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Arts, Statistics Office has reported an increase of 22% Sport and Tourism if he has received a copy of in the number of North American visitors to the Football Association of Ireland’s technical Ireland. This performance compares very favour- development plan for player development over ably with a growth rate of 8% in all outbound the next five years; the level of support the travel from the United States to Europe in the Government will provide to the FAI for the first two months of the year. The 2003 perform- implementation of this plan in order to enhance ance for the same period was weak due to the the football community here; and if he will make Iraqi situation but there are strong grounds for a statement on the matter. [19733/04] optimism regarding the North American market Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. generally this year. This is good news for the O’Donoghue): I have received a copy of the plan regions and for those sectors of the industry in question which has just been published by the which rely heavily on US business. Football Association of Ireland. I welcome the The Central Statistics Office has reported an association’s comprehensive plans for the future increase of 4.5% in the numbers of continental of its sport and ongoing commitment to the European visitors to Ireland in the first four development of football in this country. In par- months of 2004. As European economies begin ticular, I recognise its efforts in providing quality to recover, tourism demand will increase and opportunities for participation for more young Ireland is competitively well positioned to take people in their own communities countrywide. full advantage of this upturn. Scheduled air access Last week, I announced an allocation of \2 mill- capacity from continental Europe to the island of ion from the Irish Sports Council to the FAI for Ireland is higher this summer than last year, 2004 aimed at supporting its technical develop- which augurs well for continued growth from ment plan with a special emphasis on partici- Europe over the peak months. pation in soccer at under age level. The accession of ten new member states to the This brings to \6.3 million the total allocated EU may also produce tourism dividends in the to the FAI since the introduction in 2001 of the future. These countries represent an EU popu- special budgetary measure for the encouragement lation increase of nearly 20% and generated out- of greater under age participation in the four \ bound travel spending of 8.2 billion last year. major field sports. The investment supports the These figures suggest that there is market poten- council’s strategic objectives of increasing oppor- tial for Irish tourism and, over the last four years, tunities to participate in sport, particularly for Ireland has experienced steady growth, albeit school aged children. Under the national lottery from a low base, in visitor numbers from eastern funded sports capital programme, which is admin- Europe, most notably Poland, the Czech istered by my Department, funding is allocated Republic and Hungary. to sporting and community organisations at local, In line with our programme for Government regional and national level throughout the coun- and the recommendations of the tourism policy try. The programme is advertised annually. Two review group, Tourism Ireland has initiated a sports capital grants of \225,000 in 2003 and review of continental European markets to iden- \100,000 in 2004 have been allocated to the FAI tify what is required to realise significant towards the provision of equipment required for increases in the numbers of tourists Ireland its development programmes. attracts from these markets. Barring major exter- The sports capital funding allocations since nal shocks, all the indications this year are for 1998 to projects classified as soccer projects, 1143 Questions— 1 July 2004. Written Answers 1144

[Mr. O’Donoghue.] financial support of \69.84 million to the GAA including the FAI’s regional development towards the redevelopment of Croke Park. I do centres, Eircom League clubs, district junior and not share the contention that there is an outstand- schoolboy leagues and clubs and some municipal ing commitment to provide additional funds for community soccer facilities are as follows: 1998, this work. In the context of the development of a \0.89 million; 1999, \4.10 million; 2000, \6.92 State financed national stadium at Abbotstown, million; 2001, \8.62 million; 2002, \19.98 million; special funding proposals were made in April 2003, \9.17 million. On 7 May I announced pro- 2001 to the GAA on the basis of its intended visional funding allocations totalling \50.8 mill- usage of the completed stadium’s facilities. This ion, of which \8.05 million was for soccer projects proposal lapsed with the Government’s decision under the 2004 sports capital programme. I will not to proceed with the development of a shortly make further announcements under the national stadium at Abbotstown. 2004 programme in respect of funding for pro- Earlier this year I met with officers of the jects of major significance which, while meeting GAA and discussed with them the provision of local needs, will also add considerably to the additional funding for Croke Park. Following a national and regional sporting infrastructure useful exchange at that and previous meetings, necessary for increasing levels of participation the organisation understands that the Govern- and improving standards of performance. ment is well disposed to support the GAA. The My Department and the Irish Sports Council important contribution made by the GAA to will continue to work closely with the governing Irish sport is well recognised in terms of the sup- bodies of sport, including the FAI, in the pro- ports it has received through various funding vision of appropriate facilities and programmes channels operated through my Department. For aimed at increased participation, the raising of instance, over \156 million has been allocated in standards of performance and the achievement of capital and current funding in the five years up to excellence in top level national and international 2003 between the sports capital programme and sport by our leading sports men and women. funds provided through the Irish Sports Council. Most recently, grants announced under the 2004 Question No. 29 answered with Question sports capital programme have included an allo- No. 12. cation of \21 million to assist 260 local GAA projects. Interdepartmental Committees. 30. Mr. P. McGrath asked the Minister for Question No. 32 answered with Question Arts, Sport and Tourism if officials from his No. 22. Department are involved in interdepartmental Question No. 33 answered with Question committees with the Department of Education No. 5. and Science with a view to increasing the availability of music and art education at second level; Question No. 34 answered with Question and if he will make a statement on the matter. No. 7. [19712/04] Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. Irish Festival in China. O’Donoghue): The provision of music and art 35. Mr. M. Higgins asked the Minister for Arts, education at second level is, in the first instance, Sport and Tourism if he will report on the Irish a matter for the Department of Education and Festival of Arts and Culture held in China; the Science. My Department’s officials are not details of the Chinese festival to be held here; the involved in interdepartmental committees in this purpose and aims of each festival; and if he will context. Separately, I am considering the estab- make a statement on the matter. [19725/04] lishment of a special committee under section 21 of the Arts Act 2003 to advise the Arts Council Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. on the question of art and education. O’Donoghue): The Irish Festival in China, which was formally opened by me in Beijing on 9 May Sport and Recreational Development. 2004, comprised a total of 27 performances and events from 22 performing groups and leading 31. Mr. O’Shea asked the Minister for Arts, artists and two exhibitions. The festival in Beijing Sport and Tourism his views on whether the was included as part of the Meet in Beijing Festi- Government will fulfil its commitment to the val in May, at which Ireland was the featured GAA to grant it \38 million for the redevelop- guest nation. Many of these events transferred to ment of Croke Park; if his attention has been Shanghai, where the entire festival finishes on 3 drawn to recent comments from the GAA pres- July with the closing of an exhibition of contem- ident that the organisation was paying \6 million porary art from the Irish Museum of Modern Art. a year in interest to service the debt incurred dur- Our programme in China also included a number ing the redevelopment project; and if he will of artistic collaborations and residencies involving make a statement on the matter. [19732/04] Irish and Chinese artists. Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. As extensively reported in the Irish and Chi- O’Donoghue): The Government has provided nese media, the festival was a great success with 1145 Questions— 1 July 2004. Written Answers 1146

Chinese audiences. The events were well understanding between our two peoples and attended and many sold out. should assist in the ongoing development of posi- The festival in Ireland of Chinese arts and cul- tive cultural, economic, trade and social relations ture encompasses many art forms and includes between our two countries and to raise awareness several Chinese artists in residence. It will open of Ireland within China as part of the Govern- at the Galway Arts Festival with the China Con- ment’s Asia strategy. It is hoped, also, to develop servatory of Music and the Beijing Academy of lasting relationships between Irish artists and Dance in July. Details of the programme are organisations that will hopefully encourage con- attached for the Deputy’s information. The cul- tinuing artistic dialogue between Ireland and tural exchange is intended to lead to a greater China.

Chinese Cultural Programme — Provisional Schedule for 2004

Programme

China Conservatory of Music Galway Arts Festival, Thursday 15 July Earagail Arts Festival, Letterkenny, Friday 16 July

Diversions Festival, Temple Bar, Sunday 18 July Beijing Academy of Dance Galway Arts Festival, Friday 16 and Saturday 17 July Siamsa Tı´re, Tralee, Sunday 18 July The Helix, Dublin, Wednesday 21 July

Chinese Film Festival Irish Film Institute, Dublin, 24-30 September. Films to be confirmed

Peking Opera of Beijing National Concert Hall, Dublin, 1 and 3 October. Pre-show talk confirmed

Exhibition of Peking Opera Costumes NCH foyer as above

Exhibition of Contemporary Art — a collaboration between IMMA, opens 13 October to January 2005. IMMA and Shanghai Art Museum

Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre European Capital of Culture, Cork Opera House. 28, 29 and 30 October

Shanghai Percussion Ensemble European Capital of Culture Cork Town Hall — Thursday 4 November Glo´ r, Ennis — Saturday 6 November Dublin date — Wednesday 10 November; promoted by Improvised Music Company and venue/date to be confirmed

Beijing People’s Arts Theatre The Helix, Dublin — 4, 5 and 6 November

Visual Arts in Residence IMMA, October — dates to be advised by Beijing Municipal Government cultural office

Writers in Residence October — dates to be advised by China Writers Association

Dancers in Residence October — dates to be advised by China Dancers Association

Question No. 36 answered with Question skilled workers outside the EU; the categories No. 23. and the countries which will be eligible under this scheme; if she has plans to amend the existing Question No. 37 answered with Question scheme; and if she will make a statement on the No. 22. matter. [19885/04] Tanaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade Question No. 38 answered with Question ´ and Employment (Ms Harney): While I do not No. 23. at this stage see a need for any new scheme, my Department is closely monitoring labour market Question No. 39 answered with Question developments following EU enlargement. No. 16. Depending on our experience of the enlarged labour market and an assessment of our future skills Work Permits. needs, I will be prepared to consider if a more 40. Ms Enright asked the Ta´naiste and Minister formal programme of permanent migration for for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the highly qualified personnel from outside the Euro- details of any new scheme for work visas for pean Economic Area is necessary. 1147 Questions— 1 July 2004. Written Answers 1148

[Ms Harney.] cal spread. This particular aspect will, in general A working group set up under Sustaining Pro- terms, be retained in the future. The full organis- gress, including representatives of employer bod- ational and establishment details of the new ies and unions, recently concluded that such a Reserve will be determined in the course of the programme is not necessary at this time. I will be ongoing detailed implementation process. Plans guided by the emerging evidence from the labour within each brigade for the amalgamation of FCA market. Both the working visa/work authoris- units in line with the proposals outlined in the ation and work permit facilities continue to be steering group report will ensure that better train- available for such higher skilled recruitment ing and other facilities will be provided to needs as cannot be satisfied within the enlarged members of the Reserve Defence Force. No EU. decisions have yet been taken on the location of Pension Provisions. proposed newly amalgamated units but the military authorities have advised me that all proposed 41. Mr. N. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for amalgamations will provide an optimal envir- Defence if consideration will be given to the onment for personnel in the relevant areas to par- entitlement of a person (details supplied) in take in the new enhanced Reserve Defence County Cork to a disablement pension from his Force. Department. [19860/04] Members of the FCA are already seeing the Mini