Da´Il E´Ireann

Vol. 641 Wednesday, No. 4 14 November 2007

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

DA´ IL E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 14 November 2007.

Leaders’ Questions ………………………………1029 Ceisteanna—Questions Taoiseach …………………………………1036 Request to move Adjournment of Da´il under Standing Order 32 ………………1050 Order of Business ………………………………1051 Ministerial Rota: Motion ……………………………1063 Select Committee on Foreign Affairs: Motion ……………………1064 Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security: Motion ………………1064 Joint Administration Committee: Motion ………………………1064 Membership of Committees: Motion …………………………1067 Regional Fisheries Boards: Motion …………………………1067 Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 2007: Second Stage (resumed)……………1068 Ceisteanna—Questions (resumed) Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Priority Questions ……………………………1083 Other Questions ……………………………1096 Adjournment Debate Matters ……………………………1108 Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 2007: Second Stage (resumed)……………………………1110 Committee and Remaining Stages ………………………1121 Transport 21: Statements ……………………………1130 Visit of Uruguayan Delegation …………………………1146 Transport 21: Statements (resumed) …………………………1146 Private Members’ Business Child Care: Motion (resumed) …………………………1163 Adjournment Debate Health Services ………………………………1197 State Airports ………………………………1200 Services for People with Disabilities ………………………1202 Fire Services ………………………………1206 Questions: Written Answers ……………………………1209 1029 1030

DA´ IL E´ IREANN Deputy James Bannon: Will the Taoiseach tell that to the people of Longford-Westmeath? ———— Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: The Taoiseach De´ Ce´adaoin, 14 Samhain 2007. should take his head out of the sand. Wednesday, 14 November 2007. An Ceann Comhairle: Allow the Taoiseach to ———— continue without interruption.

Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar The Taoiseach: The people of Westmeath and 10.30 a.m. every other county acknowledge the improvements in the health service while understanding ———— the difficulties. I do not understand the question asked by Deputy Kenny. Paidir. Prayer. Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: The Taoiseach is making trouble for himself by not answering the ———— question. The Taoiseach: He says he is in favour of the Leaders’ Questions. reform programme, that he wants the discussions Deputy Enda Kenny: Since the general elec- and negotiations with the consultants and the tion, we have seen the true value of Fianna Fa´il non-consultant hospital doctors concluded and policies, with hospital wards closed, operations that he wants to see us move towards imple- cancelled, home help hours cut back, children’s menting reduced working hours for nurses. We dental services cancelled, suicide prevention want to see the paramedical talks resumed, to training cancelled and a ban on recruitment that conclude the agreement with pharmacists and to has directly hit frontline services in the health improve the hospital development programme. area. However, there is one area in the health We want to do all these things with fewer staff. sector that has seen no recruitment ban and that is the Office of the Minister for Health and Chil- Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Nothing has been dren. Since 2002, the cost of special advisers to done. the Minister has risen from \206,000 to \666,000. Deputy Seymour Crawford: Nobody can agree Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: It is sinful. on anything.

Deputy Enda Kenny: Will the Taoiseach The Taoiseach: We either want the Minister for Health and Children to be given an opportunity explain why this is so in the midst of the shambles \ over which he and the Minister for Health and to obtain best value for money within the 15 Children preside? How can he justify the value billion budget and with a staff of 120,000, and to for money this represents given what is falling reform the health system as we have been talking down around us? about, or we do not. Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Will the Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: People cannot Taoiseach answer the question? get four hours of home help. The Taoiseach: As we know, when Deputy The Taoiseach: Deputy Kenny continues in his Kenny last saw the inside of a Department there attempt to attack the health service. were 55 advisers assigned to the various Depart- ments whereas now there are only 34. Deputy Brian Cowen: He continues whining. Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Where did the Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Will the Taoiseach get that figure? Taoiseach answer the question? Deputy Enda Kenny: As with many other The Taoiseach: I will answer the question. issues, the Taoiseach either does not understand or does not want to understand. I will ask the Deputy Alan Shatter: It is a case of Govern- question again. Does an increase from \206,000 ment and managerial incompetence. to \666,000 in the cost of special advisers in the Minister for Health and Children’s office rep- The Taoiseach: It is regrettable that the enor- resent good value? If the Taoiseach did not mous amount of good service, work in the com- understand the question the first time, I hope he munity and all the other activities being carried does the second time. The Government calls to out by the HSE are continually attacked in this mind something Ronald Reagan said — it is like House. a baby’s alimentary canal in that it has a huge 1031 Leaders’ 14 November 2007. Questions 1032

[Deputy Enda Kenny.] The Taoiseach: Those in the HSE are working appetite at one end and no responsibility at the to bring in the reforms that are necessary. I do other. not accept this ongoing attack on the health service in which more than 1 million people a Deputy Alan Shatter: It is time we got to the year are receiving treatment. Hospitals are doing bottom of it. their best and we are spending \500 million a year on the capital programme. In many cases, includ- Deputy Enda Kenny: There is bureaucratic ing in respect of maternity and children’s cardiac bungling. Ministers can wipe their hands of that surgery, figures are never quoted in this House until they have to explain to somebody why an because people just look through reports, as we operation is cancelled, dental treatment is can- saw yesterday, find the negative and attack the celled, suicide prevention training is cancelled or service. The health service is staffed by highly it is not possible to obtain four hours of home competent people doing their jobs in a highly help. The Taoiseach has admitted to me in this competent way. We should be proud of them House that there is a bureaucratic bulge in the instead of always ridiculing them. administrative section of the HSE. The Govern- ment recognises that it went the wrong way in Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Does that setting up a structure that is overmanned and include the Minister? over-managed. I will ask the question again. Does The Taoiseach: I am the first to admit where the Taoiseach consider that the increase in costs there are problems, difficulties and shortfalls and to \666,000 in the Minister for Health and Chil- that we must set about addressing those. dren’s office represents good value? When will the Government start practising Deputy Alan Shatter: The Taoiseach has had what it preaches? The Taoiseach preaches pay ten years to do so. restraint but he is by far and away the highest paid world leader. He does not have a White The Taoiseach: Do Opposition Members House, he does not have the yachts, he does not expect that the Minister for Health and Children have the aeroplanes—— and other Ministers can sit in their Departments with no staff and properly manage a budget of Deputy E´ amon O´ Cuı´v: Is that what Deputy \52 billion? That is not possible. This Govern- Kenny wants? ment is committed to getting the best possible return on all the resources—— Deputy Enda Kenny: ——but he represents 4 million people as against 200 million in some Deputy Bernard Allen: What about staff? cases and 80 million or 50 million in others. When will he practise the pay restraint that he The Taoiseach: ——-to ensure taxpayers’ preaches? money is used efficiently and effectively to give the very best service that we can. Deputies: Hear, hear. Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Does the Deputy Enda Kenny: When will we see value Taoiseach think that is happening? for money in the \4 million that is now allocated to special advisers for Ministers whose salaries The Taoiseach: Where we are seeking reform are on a range from \250,000 to \270,000 and to do that, I would very much like if on some day \318,000 in the Taoiseach’s case? of the year, for one minute, we would get some support to give a better service to the public, The Taoiseach: I answered the Deputy’s ques- rather than the usual diatribe from the tion. The staff working for the Minister for Opposition. Health and Children are working to their full Deputy Michael Ring: Professor Brendan capacity and to the best of their ability—— Drumm is the real Minister for Health and Children. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: That is even worse. Deputy Alan Shatter: The Government should Deputy Brian Hayes: I would hate to see where be carrying out reform rather than talking about we would be if they were not working to their it. full capacity. Deputy Joan Burton: I will move to a different The Taoiseach: ——and are doing an excellent issue. I congratulate the Taoiseach and his Mini- job in helping the Minister to make the necessary sters on arriving to work in the Da´il today clean reforms in the Department. and dry at a time when thousands of Dubliners are out there walking through the rain to work. Deputy Seymour Crawford: They are closing Some years ago, at the beginning of November hospital wards. 2005, there was an extraordinary Government 1033 Leaders’ 14 November 2007. Questions 1034 media blitz when the Taoiseach and an array of Deputy Joan Burton: Where is the Govern- Ministers set out the plan for Transport 21. We ment on the public transport issue? were told this plan would modernise Ireland and all its major cities with regard to public transport. The Taoiseach: Transport 21 is thankfully Our young people have travelled the world and going extremely well. admired transport systems such as subways in the United States or the Far East, trams in Bordeaux Deputy James Bannon: Where is the Leitrim or the underground in Lisbon. to Sligo line?

Deputy Martin Cullen: There is the Luas in Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Everything is Dublin. rosy in the garden.

Deputy Joan Burton: Those people were to The Taoiseach: We took delivery of 100 buses this year and 50 have been introduced into come home and find, in the space of five or six service. As part of that process of introducing the years from 2005, public transport transformed in balance of 50 buses, we now wish to enhance the Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway. Here we are services to existing routes from Ballymun to in November 2007, it is a rainy day out there and Ballybrack, and introduce a new route, the 128, many women like me are having a bad hair day the north fringe buses going through Baldoyle, because there is no public transport. the Malahide road and Fairview. Deputy Burton asked about the Luas I prom- Deputy Willie O’Dea: The Deputy said it. ised. It opened about three years ago and 30 million people are travelling on it. Deputy Brendan Smith: The Government is to blame for the rain now. Deputy Martin Cullen: Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Burton, with- Deputy Alan Shatter: That was three years late out interruption. as well.

Deputy Joan Burton: Most people out there The Taoiseach: There are seven new Luas pro- are not interested in a jet or a yacht, they would jects in Transport 21. The construction of the line just like to see buses and trains and more Luas to the docks is well under way, as is the Cherry- trams. wood extension. The rail lines in Kildare and What has happened to the plan? The Minister upgrading of stations in some cases is under way. for Transport announced the extension of the Tallaght Luas line to Citywest is to be put back. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The overcrowded The Connolly to the Docklands Luas extension is trains with no extra carriages. essential to connect up the new Docklands station. I was there when the Taoiseach opened The Taoiseach: There are two metro lines, one the station; it is lovely, but there is no connection. going through the airport and Swords and the Such a connection is to be put back because of other going west. They are both at different technical difficulties. stages of development. The engineering and plan- We are being told the proposed new Luas lines, ning work for the underground station at St. not to mention the metro to the airport, are Stephen’s Green integrating the metro and Luas experiencing difficulties. All the completion dates is under way. The DART extensions in Dublin are going back by one to three years, slowly but and the track of the Kildare route is under way. surely. The Cork to Midleton commuter rail Most road programmes are well ahead of service has gone back by a year. Apparently tech- schedule. nical problems are holding up the Limerick Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: What about outside southern ring road. Even the Portlaoise train Dublin? depot, which was to be built and available around now, is still in man˜ana land. The Taoiseach: In the Deputy’s end of the Who in Government is competently in charge bailiwick, the Liffey Valley junction will be fin- of delivering the public transport this country ished for Christmas, way ahead of schedule. needs and deserves to get on with doing its business? Does the Taoiseach believe the Minister for Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: It will be like Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, is up to the Disneyland. job? Has the thought crossed the Taoiseach’s mind that the Minister may need the support of The Taoiseach: The main junction at the Red his Cabinet colleagues and that of the Taoiseach Cow will be finished next Christmas, about a year himself to deliver these projects? ahead of schedule.

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Burton is well Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Is it Christmas over her time. toys the Taoiseach is talking about? 1035 Ceisteanna — 14 November 2007. Questions 1036

Deputy Martin Cullen: That is ahead of being used on the Ballymun to Blackrock route schedule. and the introduction of the new north fringe route taking in Baldoyle, the Malahide road, Fair- The Taoiseach: Some of the main infrastructu- view, the city centre and Rathmines. I wish the ral roads, such as the Limerick to Nenagh route, chairman of the Labour Court and both sets of are well ahead of schedule. The project from negotiators well this morning. I hope they can Tyrrellspass to Athlone will be opened in the new resolve these issues because it is a wet morning year and work is under way on the Ballinasloe to and 60,000 commuters have had to make alterna- Athlone route. The third contract to bring it all tive arrangements. the way from Galway to Dublin, the Galway to Athlone-side of Ballinasloe route, is also under Deputy Joan Burton: They are walking. way. Work on 60 km of road to Cork is well advanced. The Taoiseach: I hope the dispute can be Work on the route to Waterford has been a bit resolved. It has been before the Labour Court slower but it is now under way. It is divided into and the Labour Relations Commission and a three contracts. There is one going to Carlow, decision was made by the Labour Court which which is almost finished, as well as the other two. normally people would be honour-bound to Should I continue? accept. I understand that sometimes that does not happen. In this case the management went Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Taoiseach is through arbitration and the full conciliation pro- great fun, he is great gas. cess in the Labour Relations Commission. Man- agement went to the Labour Court, where it won Deputy Joan Burton: My question concerned its case, and the workers decided to strike. That public transport. I would be the first to acknowl- is the position and they must resolve it. I hope in edge the National Roads Authority seems to have the interests of the company and the jobs both finally got its act together. The changes by the sides can resolve this issue as soon as possible. Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, regarding Bus E´ ireann has over 600 new buses and Irish funding procedures have helped. Not everyone Rail will accept delivery of 183 new rail cars in wants to or can drive a car into Dublin city centre, the next few years. Our rail fleet will then be the Limerick, Cork or Galway. youngest in Europe. If we want to do our business as a modern economy, where is the public transport? The inte- Deputy Joan Burton: It is also the smallest in grated signalling for the Liffey Junction line is Europe. still years away, and in taking the train from Maynooth to Connolly station, one finds the The Taoiseach: There are hourly trains to locals fondly call it “The Calcutta Express” Cork, as opposed to the twice daily service ten because people are jammed on trains and there is years ago. We are extending services on other such a lack of trains. routes and I hope people use those trains as orig- The Taoiseach mentioned an extra 100 buses. inally they were not running because of a lack of How many of those buses are in service and how use. The Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance is giv- many of those are replacements for clapped-out ing a huge amount of resources — \34.5 billion buses which were not replaced for about ten — to help and much of that will be going to public years? How much additional resourcing are we transport so people commute on it. getting? People want to use public transport but With Transport 21 and the western rail corri- it is impossible to do business or go to a job if dor, the new commuter services to Galway com- reliable public transport is not available. ing on stream and work on inter-urban roads Where is the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, under way, the Minister for Transport, the NRA on all this? He gave us flights of fancy on elec- and the other agencies are everyday making tronic voting and so on. Is he thinking away in further improvements. some ivory tower? We want public transport now. Has the Taoiseach confidence in the Minister’s Ceisteanna — Questions. capacity to deliver? He has already announced to my colleague, Deputy Tommy Broughan, that ———— eight out of 12 of the public transport projects in Transport 21 have had their completion dates Northern Ireland Issues. pushed back by at least one year. Is the Taoiseach aware of this and does he continue to have confi- 1. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach dence in this Minister? if he will make a statement on his participation in the meeting of the British-Irish Council in Belfast The Taoiseach: I apologise to the Deputy if I on 16 July 2007. [19876/07] did not mention the public transport end of the issue. There are more than 1,100 new buses at 2. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach Dublin Bus, including 100 new buses delivered if he will make a statement on meetings he has recently. The dispute centres on 50 of these buses had with other participants on the margins of the 1037 Ceisteanna — 14 November 2007. Questions 1038

British-Irish Council meeting in Belfast on 16 McGuinness. The Northern Ireland Executive July 2007. [19877/07] was also represented by a number of Ministers. We were also joined by representatives from the 3. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach administrations of Scotland, Wales, Jersey, if he will make a statement on his participation in Guernsey and the Isle of Man. the meeting of the North-South Ministerial This was a truly historic event. It was the first Council in Armagh on 17 July 2007. [19878/07] summit meeting of the council since the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly in May 4. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach 2007 and the first summit to take place in the discussions that have taken place with the Northern Ireland. It was also the first occasion on social partners arising from the conclusions of the which the eight heads of administration had the North-South Ministerial Council in Armagh on opportunity to meet together since the recent 17 July 2007 regarding the establishment of the elections in other member administrations. North-South consultative forum, first proposed in At the meeting, the council discussed how the the Belfast Agreement; and if he will make a BIC might develop its work, now that all eight statement on the matter. [19879/07] members are again represented by their respective administrations. We also discussed transport 5. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach if infrastructure links as well as other issues, includ- he will report on recent developments in ing the misuse of drugs, the environment, e- Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement health, tourism, the knowledge economy, on the matter. [20264/07] indigenous, minority and lesser used languages, social inclusion and demography. 6. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach if I led the Government delegation at the plenary he will report on his contacts with the political meeting of the North-South Ministerial Council parties in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a on 17 July in Armagh. This was the first meeting statement on the matter. [20265/07] of the NSMC since its restoration to full operation following the recent historic agreement in 7. Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach if Northern Ireland. The meeting was an important he will report on his contacts with the new British opportunity for me and my Government col- Prime Minister, Mr. Brown; and if he will make leagues to discuss North-South co-operation with a statement on the matter. [20266/07] the First and Deputy First Minister and Ministers from the Northern Ireland Executive. A number 8. Deputy James Bannon asked the Taoiseach of items were discussed, including cross-Border the steps he will take to maintain the British-Irish co-operation on roads, the proposed restoration relations fostered by Prime Minister Blair; and if of the Ulster Canal, the independent North-South he will make a statement on the matter. consultative forum and the North-South [20269/07] parliamentary forum. Other issues discussed included recent progress 9. Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in asked the and future potential for North-South co-oper- Taoiseach if he will report on the discussions he ation and the review of the North-South bodies has had with the new British Prime Minister, Mr. and areas of co-operation. That review has com- Gordon Brown, on the Irish peace process; and if menced and is due to be completed in the spring. he will make a statement on the matter. Since then, a number of NSMC meetings at sec- [20607/07] toral level have also taken place. The British-Irish Council meeting in Belfast 10. Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the provided an opportunity for my first formal meet- Taoiseach if he, his Department or anyone acting ing with British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown. on behalf of his Department made represen- During our meeting, we discussed the next phase tations to the Northern Ireland Minister for of the process in Northern Ireland and the wider Social Development, Ms. Margaret Ritchie MLA, relationship between Ireland and Britain. We in connection with her decision to withhold cer- agreed to meet regularly and to further develop tain funding under the conflict transformation co-operation on economic and EU issues as well initiative as a result of the refusal of the UDA to as review progress on the peace process in begin decommissioning its weapons; the nature of Northern Ireland. The relationship between such representations made; and if he will make a Ireland and Britain is very strong and I look for- statement on the matter. [26056/07] ward to maintaining and improving the partner- ship we have built in recent years. This meeting The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions with Prime Minister Brown was my only official Nos. 1 to 10, inclusive, together. meeting on the margins of the BIC summit. I led the Irish Government delegation to the I met Deputy First Minister McGuinness on 23 British Irish Council summit on 16 July in Belfast. July in Government Buildings. Prime Minister Brown led the British Govern- At the NSMC meeting, it was noted that the ment delegation. The BIC was chaired by First Irish Government would consult the social part- Minister Paisley and Deputy First Minister ners on the North-South consultative forum and 1039 Ceisteanna — 14 November 2007. Questions 1040

[The Taoiseach.] demnation of crime and criminality is also consultations will take place shortly. There were important, including the recognition of the initial consultations with the social partners on damage done to loyalist communities by those the establishment of a North-South consultative engaged in drug-dealing. The task now for the forum at their steering group meeting on 9 organisation is to deliver on these commitments October last. There will be further discussions in full, including through early engagement with with the social partners on this matter in the the Independent International Commission on near future. Decommissioning. This statement is significant I visited Derry and Omagh on Friday 2 and hopefully signals a further step towards the November. In the course of my address to the ending of all paramilitarism in Northern Ireland. Derry Chamber of Commerce, I emphasised our It is important that we remember at this time commitment to pursuing practical cooperation the victims and survivors of UDA violence, an with the Northern Ireland Executive through the organisation which carried out appalling atroci- North-South Ministerial Council, to the develop- ties during the conflict in Northern Ireland, just ment of the north-west region through the north- as we remember all those who suffered as a result west gateway initiative and to the development of the region’s transport infrastructure through the of paramilitary violence from whatever source. It budgetary allocations in the national develop- is my enduring hope that those days are gone and ment plan. I also met business and community that the era of paramilitarism is now being left leaders and we discussed a range of local issues. behind for ever. The Government has been clear Mayor Drew Thompson hosted a reception in that we want to see all communities benefit from the Guildhall, where I had the opportunity to the peace process. We will give our support to acknowledge the work done by Derry’s political those in loyalism who are genuinely working to leaders in advancing the cause of peace and in bring about positive change on behalf of their the establishment of the devolved institutions. I communities. also visited the Tower Museum to view an exhi- I welcome the report of the IMC which was bition on the history of Derry and I visited Foyle published on 7 November and which deals with Hospice which serves the community on a cross- paramilitary activity. The Government notes with Border basis. concern the IMC’s comments about the continu- On my visit to the Strule Arts Centre in ing violence and criminality of dissident republi- Omagh, I commended the Council for its work in can groups. I take the opportunity to condemn in bringing such a landmark project to fruition. It is the strongest possible terms the appalling attacks a project that will add greatly to the rich cultural on members of the Police Service of Northern heritage of the town. Ireland in recent days. The Garda Sı´ocha´na, in I met the First Minister, Dr. Ian Paisley, in co-operation with the Police Service of Northern Government Buildings on Saturday 3 November. Ireland, will continue to take any steps necessary We discussed a wide range of issues, including to counter the threat posed by these anti-demo- shared heritage issues and current political and cratic organisations. There is no place for viol- economic issues. ence and criminality in the future of Northern I met the Consultative Group on the Past, co- Ireland. chaired by Lord Robin Eames and Denis Brad- Since May, we have seen a remarkable trans- ley, in Government Buildings on Monday, 5 formation in politics in Northern Ireland and on November. While our focus must be on building this island. All the democratic institutions are a better future for everyone on this island, we fully operational, the Northern Ireland Assembly also need to address the human legacy of the con- and Executive, the North-South Ministerial flict. I fully support the work of the group. It has Council and the British-Irish Council, as the an important and difficult task and I wish it well people intended when they voted overwhelmingly in its work. for the Good Friday Agreement in 1998. Despite The question of the funding for the conflict transformation initiative in Northern Ireland is a the occasional political tensions, which can occur matter for the Northern Ireland Executive. The in any democratic system, they are now working Government’s position was set out on 10 August intensively for the benefit of all the people in a when the Minister for Foreign Affairs issued a spirit of co-operation and based firmly on the statement endorsing Minister Margaret Ritchie’s principles of peace and democracy. robust statement that paramilitary violence and As I noted in my reply, I visited Omagh ten criminality has no place in a Northern Ireland days ago. I express my sympathies again to the that is fast moving beyond conflict. people of Omagh and in particular to those who I warmly welcome the statement by the UDA were bereaved in the tragic fire of on Sunday last, in particular its acknowledgement 11 o’clock yesterday morning. It was a horrific that the conflict is over and its commitment to event for the community, those close achieving a society where violence and weaponry to the family and their friends. I wish to put on belong to the past. The commitments to stand- the record of the House the Government’s con- down the UFF in its entirety and to put all wea- dolences to and sympathy with the entire com- ponry beyond use are to be welcomed. The con- munity in Omagh. 1041 Ceisteanna — 14 November 2007. Questions 1042

Deputy Joan Burton: On behalf of the Labour strong and forthright statement in support of her Party, I join the Taoiseach in expressing our con- at a time when the issue was at its height a few dolences to those families bereaved by the fire in months ago. Obviously, there is ongoing contact Omagh, as well as to the town itself, which has with officials, as we have a number of senior suffered many different atrocities down the years. officials based in the North, and we have been I acknowledge the work of the Taoiseach and supportive of her. I do not wish to get into what Tony Blair in respect of the time, effort and com- happened within the Executive. Obviously, some mitment they have given to ensure the successful of her colleagues in the Executive took the issue restoration of the Executive and the Assembly. It to a vote. Peter Robinson said some very hard is visible to all that the relationship between Sinn things to the effect that she was acting outside her Fe´in and the DUP in the context of the Executive remit, but I do not wish to interfere with that. and the Assembly is working extremely well. The issue was dealt with. However, is the Taoiseach concerned that to Her stance was courageous and was in line with some extent, this has been at the expense of the the stance taken for years by the Government in SDLP and the UUP, which appear to be some- trying to reward those who are involved in trying what excluded? I also wish to raise the issue of to bring about peace while trying to be as firm as the sole SDLP member of the Executive, namely, possible towards those who are not. Some indi- the Minister for Social Development, Margaret viduals within the UDA and other loyalist groups Ritchie, MLA. I refer to the decision she took to have been trying very hard to co-operate, while withhold funding under the conflict transform- others have not and have been associated with ation initiative because of the failure of the UDA criminality. The Government has always taken to deliver on promises on decommissioning. Does the position to support those who have been try- the Taoiseach agree she took the correct stance? ing to make progress and bring matters forward. I believe she did so. I have concerns in respect of the dissident The Taoiseach may have seen a report in the groups. Colleagues and others will be aware that edition of The Irish Times published on 19 when I visited Derry two weeks ago, I made a October in which the Minister, Ms Ritchie, statement to that effect. A variety of splinter claimed she had come under some pressure from groups are extant, none of which is up to any the Department of Foreign Affairs to ameliorate good and collectively they continue to cause a her stance. What did this involve? Was it simply problem. The police officer who was shot on part of normal discussions or was she advised by Thursday, thankfully, was lucky to survive an the powers that be in the Department of Foreign attack with a shotgun. An attack this week has Affairs to alter her stance? Circumstances have left a police officer with serious injuries and I certainly shown that her position was correct. send our best wishes to him and his family. Two Now that a general standing down has taken arrests have arisen from that case. There is dissi- place in respect of more of the loyalist para- dent activity and while it may not be significant in military organisations, her stance has been vindi- numbers, enough Members will remember other cated. The Taoiseach should comment on this times, North and South, that showed how small matter. groups can make much trouble. While I do not What is the Taoiseach’s take on the present wish to give respect to the organisation in ques- position in respect of the activities of the Real tion by recalling its name, Members will remem- IRA and others who may have left IRA organis- ber its activities here a long time ago. There is ations? He is probably aware that a couple of a hard core group that is out to create as much shootings at policemen, as well as the horrific embarrassment, trouble, harassment and killing murder of Paul Quinn, have taken place in recent as possible, and the security forces must be weeks. That particular murder involved a degree extremely vigilant. of violence that most people had hoped had As for the murder of Paul Quinn, the intelli- passed. On Monday, Mr. John Grieve, who is a gence in this regard is that it was not paramilitary member of the International Monitoring Com- but pertained to feuds about criminality that were mission, suggested that he believed that those taking place. However, it is important that the who were involved in the attack included people significant efforts that are being made, North and who were members, former members or those South, will result in arrests in this case. I spoke who have associations with members or former to the Garda Commissioner last night about this members of the Provisional IRA. Is this consist- matter, as well as to Garda officers and the Mini- ent with the intelligence that is available to the ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. A Taoiseach and the Government? dedicated effort is being made to achieve arrests in this case. I am strongly behind such an effort The Taoiseach: I thank the Deputy for her sup- because, for obvious reasons, it is of major portive remarks. I spoke to Margaret Ritchie last importance to the Government in this case to try week. The Government, including the Minister to find the perpetrators of what was a horrendous for Foreign Affairs and me, has been supportive. and vile act. I only needed to read half the report While I did not issue a statement in the heat of on the incident. While there are many things I do the period, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, not understand, I find it hard to understand how Deputy Dermot Ahern, did so. He issued a very anyone living on this island or this planet could 1043 Ceisteanna — 14 November 2007. Questions 1044

[The Taoiseach.] rently operating in Northern Ireland on what do such things. For that reason and many others, would be considered to be the republican side, if I would like to see them serve their due sentence. we can give it that name, which I do not particularly want to. There is the Continuity IRA, the Deputy Enda Kenny: I join the Taoiseach and Real IRA and a new grouping that calls itself Deputy Burton in expressing the sympathy of the O´ glaigh na hE´ ireann. All three of these have the House towards the families of those who lost capacity to cause trouble and two of them are cer- their lives in the inferno in Omagh. I am sure the tainly involved in the present troubles. They are neighbours who heard the screams of those chil- small groups which do not contain any prominent dren will be haunted forever. It goes through you people from the past but consist of a younger when you see the picture in today’s newspaper. generation. The remarks by the Taoiseach shortly after the murder of Paul Quinn disassociated the pro- Deputy Enda Kenny: On a different matter, visional movement from that crime. Will the comments have been made by members of the Taoiseach comment on the remark by a member UUP and the SDLP that they do not see the of the IMC that this murder was committed by inclusive Executive as being politically sus- present or former members of the IRA or their tainable. Does the Taoiseach have a view on associates? Will he comment on the fact that that? Does the Government feel that if there is those who committed that murder were dressed an inability to make decisions within the Execu- in boiler suits and surgical gloves, which was the tive and the Assembly, voluntary coalitions may trademark of IRA punishment squads? be formed as time goes by? Does the Taoiseach In respect of the shooting of a PSNI officer in have any indication of the relevance of this to the Dungannon, does the Taoiseach feel there is a continuation of the Assembly? movement to return to this sort of activity among While this is a matter strictly for Fianna Fa´il dissident republicans? Does he have any infor- and the SDLP as parties, I note that the Minister mation to that effect? For everybody’s sake, we for Foreign Affairs seems to be heading up a sort do not want a drift back towards such actions on of charge on behalf of the party up there with any side. I support the remarks of Deputy Burton regard to organising for elections and so on. In about Margaret Ritchie. Her decision was the view of the much more serious requirement to correct one and it took courage to carry out. I implement the Good Friday Agreement in full, am glad the Taoiseach has reiterated that in the the Taoiseach’s view should be that the Govern- Government’s view, this was the right thing to do. ment must direct all its energies towards full and successful completion of the Agreement. Next The Taoiseach: I can only convey to Deputy year will mark the tenth anniversary of the Kenny the information I have been given and Agreement and it may be in the Taoiseach’s mind continue to be given by the Garda and the PSNI. to have an anniversary celebration for a success- The Garda has advised that there is no infor- ful Agreement in the hope that progress will con- mation available to suggest that the attack was tinue to be made towards implementing it in full. authorised or carried out by or on behalf of any paramilitary grouping. That is also, I understand, The Taoiseach: Deputy Kenny asked about the the position of the Chief Constable of the PSNI. SDLP, the UUP and the Northern Ireland Execu- I cannot say what some of these people might tive. In only six months extraordinary progress have been involved or associated with in the past. has been made. In recent weeks the first budget I have read reports of this, but I can only deal was completed, setting out a financial framework with the present situation. for next year and for the future. The programme The IMC has not reported formally on the for Govenrment has also been completed. I met murder of Paul Quinn. It has a process for doing Ms Richie this day last week when she was here that. It is open to it to set out its assessment of for a meeting with colleagues. We have had sev- the matter in light of the information available in eral meetings with different members of the its next formal report to the Government. I am Executive and British MPs. From what we can aware of the comments made at a press con- see, they are working extremely well together. It ference yesterday to the effect that the people is a great achievement. I should have acknow- who carried out this terrible act, whatever their ledged in my reply their success in putting past history, must be found and charged in together a programme for Government and set- accordance with the rule of law. That is what all ting out their budget. decent people want to see. There is a dedicated Members of the Assembly are also intensely and focused effort being made by the Garda, in involved in discussions in Europe. The President conjunction with the PSNI, to ensure that this is of the European Commission, Mr. Barroso, met done. The Garda has gone beyond the call of duty some members and was impressed with their col- on this case as its detective units are operating lective efforts to move issues forward. They have very intensely in the Border areas, which I been involved in discussions with the Treasury support. and here with the Ta´naiste on the north-west I cannot tell Deputy Kenny any more than that gateway initiative and other programmes. Next I am concerned about three dissident groups cur- month they will make an important visit to the 1045 Ceisteanna — 14 November 2007. Questions 1046

United States. Again, this will be a collective visit. commits itself to the development of cross- The image of members of all parties — including Border projects. Included among these are the the First Minister, who is a member of the DUP, Monaghan-Derry dual-carriageway link along the the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, N2-A5, the Ulster Canal and the bridge at Nar- and members of the UUP and SDLP — working row Water. Progress has been made on each of together inspires huge confidence. It is also help- these projects. I request that the Taoiseach share ful in terms of business and tourism. The Minister with us here this morning the progress made to for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Brennan, date and his expectations of each of these moving had a meeting with his Northern Ireland counter- towards specific work on the ground. part the other day to discuss tourism plans for the Can he elaborate on the commitments to com- next few years. Overall, they are working well plete — I use the word “complete” quite pur- together. posely because I acknowledge that some progress has been made in the telecommunications sector Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I join col- — the removal of North-South telecommunica- leagues in expressing sympathy to both the tions charges and bank charges? Each of these McElhill and McGovern families on the tragic are commitments within the programme for loss of the parents and children in the terrible fire Government. What has been done to remove in the town of Omagh yesterday morning. these charges across the board? Can the On what can only be described as the brutal Taoiseach advise the House on the responses the and savage murder of Paul Quinn in my constitu- Government has received through its various ency, I once again condemn this murder in the approaches to both the telecommunications com- strongest possible terms. I do so again here today, panies and the banking institutions, North and and in conjunction with my colleagues’ voices in South? Sinn Feín I once again call on people to provide any information they may have on this savage The Taoiseach: On the North-South elements attack to either the Garda or the PSNI. I join with of the national development plan, our new plan the Taoiseach in expressing the hope that those covers the period to 2013. It sets out a compre- responsible will be brought to justice at the earl- hensive overview of the all-island co-operation iest opportunity. and the proposals for enhancing co-operation in I acknowledge that the following does not a range of areas — transport, education, research apply to any of those who have questioned this and development and health. These include joint matter here this morning, but there are others investment in strategic projects that will be of who have used this terrible event in order to mutual benefit to both jurisdictions and a more undermine the political project on which we all effective use of the existing funding on an all- have embarked in creating a new dispensation island basis. It is also a good timely development across this island and there are also those who for us in North-South co-operation and there has would seek to demonise the entire republican been a comprehensive overview of that co- community of south Armagh. I reject both of operation. those intents and the people responsible for On the projects about which Deputy O´ Caolaín them. asked, the NDP identified key areas for joint The remarks of the IMC member yesterday are investment initiatives. Included in this is a new a statement and equate with speculation. Within strategic projects proposal to complete a high the remarks made, there was not one verified quality road network on the inter-urban routes fact. If the person responsible for those remarks linking the major population centres of Dublin, has specific information, it is important that he Belfast and the north-west, with particular present that information to either the Garda or development of the dual-carriageway standard the PSNI. road to Derry and Donegal, and remove the single largest impediment to the future development An Ceann Comhairle: I must remind Deputy of the Border counties. Both organisations, the O´ Caolaín that this is Question Time. NRA and its northern counterpart, and the Departments are working on that. When I visited Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I appreciate Derry and Omagh I met some of the relevant that. people to try to move it on. We are anxious to make as much progress as possible as quickly as An Ceann Comhairle: Question Time does not possible in the same way as we deal with a project involve imparting information. It involves seeking here. We have put together all our expertise and information. I really must remind Deputy O´ all our departmental officials to make that pro- Caolaín of that. gress, particularly on the road project. We have committed to examining the resto- Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I accept that. ration of the Ulster Canal as a joint project with Nevertheless, it was important to put those Northern Ireland. This was considered at the remarks on the record. meeting in July and it was agreed that the section In the programme for Government under the of the Ulster Canal between Clones and Lough “Peace and Unity” heading, the Government Erne would be restored. The Minister for Com- 1047 Ceisteanna — 14 November 2007. Questions 1048

[The Taoiseach.] The Taoiseach: I agree. Already, there has munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy O´ been a number of meetings on this issue and the Cuı´v, who has been taking the lead on that pro- Minister, Deputy O´ Cuı´v, has made a number of ject, has had a number of meetings since statements on it. The Government’s position, September on it. which we have maintained throughout the talks Now that the Northern Ireland Executive is up process, is that parity of esteem is essential and and running, it will benefit from the improved fin- all of these cultural, heritage and equality issues ancial package that was announced in April last are of fundamental importance. We have never by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon changed that position throughout the entire talks Brown. The package consisted of \35 million for process, from the multi-party talks right through the Executive over the next four years and sup- the Good Friday Agreement and since then, and port of \18 billion in capital investment for the we will continue to advocate that. period until 2017. That package also includes \1 I spoke to the Minister for Culture, Arts and billion, of which \400 million comes from our- Leisure, Edwin Poots, MLA. On a number of selves, to improve infrastructure and for the pro- occasions we have said that this is an issue on jects. In all the technical preparation and admini- which we want to see progress. I note the diffi- stration work, all our people have been advised, culties that have arisen over the past month or six on a North-South basis and in the Ministerial weeks, but our position remains that this is an Councils, to take the action necessary to move essentially important issue and should be dealt them forward as quickly as possible. with.

Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: The Taoiseach Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: On respect for the var- will recall—— ious institutions that have grown out of the Good Friday Agreement which, in turn, grew out of the An Ceann Comhairle: I must move on to Sunningdale Agreement 23 years ago, would the Deputy Quinn. Taoiseach share my view that in order for these institutions to consolidate, take root and win Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: May I ask a affection and support from all sides on this island, brief supplementary? and, indeed, the neighbouring island, we need to respect how they function and give them time and An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has had a space to breathe? good innings. In that respect, can he reassure the House that the Minister for Social Development, Margaret Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I did not get a Richie, MLA, did not come under pressure from second opportunity. It is a brief point. Iveagh House in the run up to the decision that she courageously took? I ask this because at the An Ceann Comhairle: There are only 11 SDLP conference a few weekends ago, which was minutes left. attended by Deputies Crawford and Mansergh, there was a certain sense among many of the Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: All I ask is to SDLP delegates that the level of support she felt be given the same opportunities as other she could expect was not evident and the level of speakers. pressure brought to bear upon her, through the diplomatic channels of Iveagh House and else- An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has had where, was less than helpful? All of us now would more than that. recognise that the principled stand that she took has, indeed, borne fruit in terms of the UDA Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: The Taoiseach announcement, which is welcome. will recall that one of the key outcomes of the St. Notwithstanding the statements by the Pro- Andrews talks was the commitment to ensure the visional IRA and the Sinn Feín leadership in language rights of Irish speakers within the Six regard to the murder of my namesake, Paul Counties area. The Irish language Bill for the Six Quinn, his father is reported in today’s news- Counties has been blocked in the Assembly. papers as stating that the leadership of Sinn Feín Does the Taoiseach agree that, nevertheless, this is aware of the identity of some of the per- remains an important commitment arising out of petrators. I welcome what Deputy O´ Caolaín said the St. Andrews engagement? In the light of the in this House, but similar things were said in obstacles that have been placed in the path of the regard to the murder of Robert McCartney, and passage of this legislation which requires the similar exhortations were made to the public by Taoiseach raising this matter with the British the leadership of Sinn Feín yet, effectively, co- Prime Minister, has he done so, will he do so and operation has not been delivered on the ground. what further help can he be in ensuring that the That was the tenor of the reported remarks of rights of Irish speakers and those who wish to use Paul Quinn’s father in today’s newspapers. our first language in the northern part of our Does the Taoiseach have a view on consolidat- island are confirmed in legislation and respected ing the institutions in Northern Ireland so that across the board? the larger community there can give full support 1049 Request to move Adjournment of 14 November 2007. Daíl under Standing Order 32 1050 to it and does not feel in any way threatened, as and that people can believe it is something else. it has done in the past? Likewise, if renegade It is in the interests of everybody that these former republicans who are known to their col- people are brought to justice. Names have been leagues in Sinn Feín are now engaging in the kind mentioned about groups and what business and of brutal criminality and murder we have seen, aspects of criminality they are into, but quite what comment does the Taoiseach have to make frankly I can only work on the basis of the infor- in order to ensure those unrepresentative and mation I have, all of which is in the public now criminal groups are exposed to the full rigour domain. The Garda is aware of that information of citizen scrutiny and reports to both the Garda and what others have said in other legislatures and the PSNI? and it is doing its best to bring this case to a successful prosecution. The Taoiseach: To return to the issue of Mini- ster Margaret Ritchie and the suggestion that An Ceann Comhairle: A number of Deputies there was some pressure from her, I cannot are offering but, unfortunately, the time has account for every conversation that took place expired and I have to move on. My apologies to with officials, but it did create some heated all of them. debates within the Assembly. Minister Robinson responded to the effect that the decision was in Request to move Adjournment of Daíl under breach of the ministerial code and that Minister Standing Order 32. Ritchie did not have the legal authority to carry it out. Deputy Quinn is aware the Executive met An Ceann Comhairle: Before coming to the on Thursday, 18 October and there were disputes Order of Business I propose to deal with a and misunderstandings about what had been number of notices under Standing Order 32. I will agreed at the earlier Executive meeting. Minister call on Deputies in the order in which they sub- Ritchie was supported by UUP Ministers and mitted their notices to my offices. I call Deputy opposed by the others. Bannon. It has been reported Minister Ritchie came under pressure to change her stance from the Deputy Joe McHugh: Can I make a point of Minister for Foreign Affairs. Whatever dis- order? cussions he had with her and others, in the heat of it the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, An Ceann Comhairle: No, unfortunately, we defended and praised her. When I spoke to her I have moved on. commended her for her actions. We have always taken a view on loyalists. Certainly for the past Deputy Joe McHugh: This issue is of national ten years we have helped them. We have even importance and I would appreciate it if there given funds to some of the organisations to help were a way of extending this debate to a later them to rehabilitate themselves and to move for- stage—— ward. The stance the Minister took was in line with the stance I have taken on these issues for a An Ceann Comhairle: We have moved on. decade or more. That has been our position. It did create a fair bit of rumblings and difficulties Deputy Joe McHugh: ——to discuss cross- within the Executive and obviously that is a Border security. matter for it. I do not have much to add to what I previously An Ceann Comhairle: Questions can be tabled said about Paul Quinn. We have received a to the Taoiseach. number of reports from the Garda and second- hand from the PSNI, and both of them match at Deputy Joe McHugh: This issue affects many this stage, that this action was due to criminality. people. I accept issues arise about where these people came from in the past, what they did previously An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is perfectly and the fact that the format of the killing had a entitled to table questions to the Taoiseach on resemblance to what happened in the past. That the matter. I call Deputy Morgan. has been in every newspaper in Northern Ireland in recent weeks. Our intelligence and information Deputy Arthur Morgan: I seek the adjourn- is that this was not the work of the provisional ment of the Daíl under Standing Order 32 to dis- republican movement and that it was not sanc- cuss the following matter of urgent national tioned or condoned by it or by the Sinn Feín importance, namely, that all oncology services in leadership. the north east, and at Our Lady of Lourdes The Garda is making an intense effort on this Hospital in Drogheda in particular, remain in matter in terms of questioning and it is going place until centres of excellence are fully func- beyond what it would normally do in how it is tioning so that the 1,000 patients attending Our operating on this particular event. That is known Lady of Lourdes Hospital weekly can avail of a by the community in Northern Ireland as well as reasonable level of service rather than having in southern Ireland along the Border. It is patients who are very ill, and in many cases dying, important because if these things are not resolved being forced into already overcrowded wards in they continue to grow legs. I appreciate that point Beaumont and the Mater hospitals in Dublin. I 1051 Order of 14 November 2007. Business 1052

[Deputy Arthur Morgan.] mittee of proposed approval by Daíl E´ ireann of hope the Ceann Comhairle will allow a debate on fisheries orders, without debate, agreed to? this important issue. Deputy Liz McManus: No, a Cheann Comh- An Ceann Comhairle: Having considered the airle. I object to the taking of 11d, without matter raised, it is not in order under Standing debate. This relates to fisheries orders, in part- Order 32. I call on the Taoiseach to announce the icular the postponement yet again of elections to Order of Business. the regional fisheries boards. With your indul- gence, I wish to make a point. In 2005 the then Order of Business. Minister of State with responsibility for fisheries, Deputy Gallagher, announced he intended to The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take No. 10a, postpone the elections of members to the fisher- motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary ques- ies boards. In December 2006 the Government tions; No. 11, motion re orders of reference of announced it would postpone yet again the elec- committee; No. 11a, motion re establishment of tions of members to the regional fisheries boards. Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy It is interesting to note that when this matter Security; No. 11b, motion re establishment of was debated by the committee on 13 December Joint Administration Committee; No. 11c, motion 2006 Deputy Eamon Ryan, who was the Green re appointment of members to committees; No. Party spokesperson at the time, described the 11d, motion re referral to joint committee of pro- second postponement as a shocking indictment of posed approval by Daíl E´ ireann of the Regional the Government’s inability to prioritise the envir- Fisheries Boards (Postponement of Elections) onment and wild fish stocks. He actually called it and Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial a cowardly act. We are now being asked by Licences) (Alteration of Duties) Orders 2007; Deputy Eamon Ryan, who is now the Minister No. 2, Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill responsible, to postpone yet again democratic 2007 — Second and Remaining Stages (resumed); elections to regional fisheries boards. What are and No.17, statements on Transport 21. we to think about that? Is this an even more It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in shocking indictment of the Government? Is it an Standing Orders, that (1) Nos. 10a, 11, 11a,11b, even more cowardly act by the new Minister that 11c and 11d shall be decided without debate; (2) for the third time we are being asked to postpone the resumed Second Stage and Remaining Stages democratic elections that should have been held of No. 2 shall be taken today and the following three years ago and will be delayed for another arrangements shall apply: the proceedings on the year? resumed Second Stage shall, if not previously It is important that we debate this issue. It is concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 4.30 not good enough, when we consider that wild fish p.m.; the proceedings on the Committee and stocks are at risk, that the Government, which Remaining Stages shall, if not previously con- pretends to prioritise the environment, is acting cluded, be brought to a conclusion at 6 p.m. by in a worse fashion than the previous Government. one question which shall be put from the Chair I believe we should prioritise the environment and which shall, in regard to amendments, but it is clear that we cannot depend on the include only those set down or accepted by the Green Party to prioritise the environment in Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Government. I feel strongly about this issue. It is Local Government; (3) the following arrange- an issue of democracy and environmental con- ments shall apply in regard to No. 17: (i) the servation. I ask that we have a debate on that statements of a Minister or Minister of State and issue in this Chamber so that we do not partici- of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael pate in what is a charade in terms of ensuring that Party, the Labour Party and Sinn Feín, who shall we deal with issues here and not somewhere be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 down in the bowels of this House in committee. minutes in each case; the statements of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes The Taoiseach: Perhaps the Deputy does not in each case; Members may share time; a Minister understand the proposal. The proposal is that it or Minister of State shall be called upon to make will go to committee and come back here on 5 a statement in reply which shall not exceed ten December. That is precisely what will happen. minutes; and (4) Private Members’ business shall be No. 27, motion re proposed child care subven- Deputy Liz McManus: That is my problem. tion scheme (resumed) to conclude at 8.30 p.m. An Ceann Comhairle: I am sorry. There can An Ceann Comhairle: There are three pro- only be one intervention. posals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 10a, 11, 11a,11b,11c and 11d, Deputy Liz McManus: Can I ask—— motions re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions, orders of reference of committee, An Ceann Comhairle: No, I am sorry. I must establishment of Joint Committee on Climate abide by Standing Orders. Change and Energy Security, establishment of Joint Administration Committee, appointment of Deputy Liz McManus: On a point of order, a Members to committee and referral to joint com- Cheann Comhairle. 1053 Order of 14 November 2007. Business 1054

An Ceann Comhairle: There can be only one intend to ensure there is a debate in this House intervention. That intervention has occurred. The or not? Taoiseach has replied and I will now put the question unless the proposal is agreed. An Ceann Comhairle: That is not a point of order. Deputy Liz McManus: I am entitled to make a Deputy Liz McManus: It is a point of order. point of order, a Cheann Comhairle. An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal agreed? An Ceann Comhairle: If it is a point of order. Deputy Emmet Stagg: It is not agreed. Deputy Liz McManus: It is a point of order. Question put: ”That the proposal for dealing The Taoiseach stated it will go to the committee with Nos. 10a, 11, 11a,11b,11c and 11d without and then come back to this House. Does he debate be agreed to.”

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 73; Nı´l, 63.

Ta´

Ahern, Bertie. Kelleher, Billy. Ahern, Michael. Kelly, Peter. Andrews, Barry. Kenneally, Brendan. Ardagh, Seań. Kennedy, Michael. Aylward, Bobby. Killeen, Tony. Behan, Joe. Kirk, Seamus. Blaney, Niall. Kitt, Tom. Brady, A´ ine. Lenihan, Brian. Brady, Cyprian. Mansergh, Martin. Brady, Johnny. McDaid, James. Browne, John. McEllistrim, Thomas. Byrne, Thomas. McGrath, Finian. Calleary, Dara. McGrath, Mattie. Carey, Pat. McGrath, Michael. Conlon, Margaret. McGuinness, John. Connick, Seań. Moynihan, Michael. Coughlan, Mary. O´ Cuı´v, E´ amon. Cowen, Brian. O´ Fearghaı´l, Seań. Cregan, John. O’Brien, Darragh. Cuffe, Ciarań. O’Connor, Charlie. Cullen, Martin. O’Dea, Willie. Curran, John. O’Flynn, Noel. Dempsey, Noel. O’Hanlon, Rory. Devins, Jimmy. O’Keeffe, Batt. Dooley, Timmy. O’Keeffe, Edward. Fahey, Frank. O’Rourke, Mary. Fitzpatrick, Michael. O’Sullivan, Christy. Fleming, Seań. Power, Peter. Flynn, Beverley. Power, Seań. Gallagher, Pat The Cope. Ryan, Eamon. Gogarty, Paul. Scanlon, Eamon. Gormley, John. Smith, Brendan. Grealish, Noel. Treacy, Noel. Harney, Mary. Wallace, Mary. Haughey, Seań. White, Mary Alexandra. Healy-Rae, Jackie. Woods, Michael. Hoctor, Maíre.

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. Doyle, Andrew. Bannon, James. Durkan, Bernard J. Breen, Pat. English, Damien. Broughan, Thomas P. Enright, Olwyn. Bruton, Richard. Feighan, Frank. Burke, Ulick. Ferris, Martin. Burton, Joan. Flanagan, Charles. Byrne, Catherine. Flanagan, Terence. Carey, Joe. Hayes, Brian. Clune, Deirdre. Hayes, Tom. Coonan, Noel J. Higgins, Michael D. Coveney, Simon. Hogan, Phil. Crawford, Seymour. Howlin, Brendan. Creed, Michael. Kehoe, Paul. Creighton, Lucinda. Kenny, Enda. D’Arcy, Michael. Lynch, Ciara´n. Deenihan, Jimmy. Lynch, Kathleen. 1055 Order of 14 November 2007. Business 1056

Nı´l—continued

McCormack, Pa´draic. Quinn, Ruairı´. McGinley, Dinny. Rabbitte, Pat. McHugh, Joe. Reilly, James. McManus, Liz. Ring, Michael. Mitchell, Olivia. Shatter, Alan. Morgan, Arthur. Sheahan, Tom. Naughten, Denis. Sheehan, P.J. O´ Caolaín, Caoimhghıń. Sherlock, Seań. O’Dowd, Fergus. Shortall, Ro´ isıń. O’Keeffe, Jim. Stagg, Emmet. O’Mahony, John. Stanton, David. O’Shea, Brian. Tuffy, Joanna. O’Sullivan, Jan. Upton, Mary. Penrose, Willie. Wall, Jack. Perry, John.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Tom Kitt and John Curran; Nı´l, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried. The Taoiseach: I agree with Deputy Stagg. We go to great lengths to avoid as many guillotines An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal for deal- as we possibly can, but I cannot understand what ing with No. 2, Second and Remaining Stages of we would discuss about this Bill until 6 o’clock. the Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 2007, agreed? Deputy Tom Kitt: Hear, hear.

Deputy Paul Kehoe: This is another guillotine The Taoiseach: It relates to the transfer of in this Daíl’s early days. At last week’s meeting responsibility for non-national roads and the of the Whips, we indicated to the Government national vehicle driver file to the Department of that we would not accept it. Transport. The only reason—— Deputy Tom Hayes: The Minister, Deputy Deputy Emmet Stagg: Guillotines at this stage Dempsey, will make a mess of it. That is the of the Daíl’s life are unusual. They deny the reason. House the opportunity to debate issues fully. There have been 691 guillotines in the history of An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is not in the House, 307 of which were during the previous order. The Taoiseach without interruption. Government’s lifetime. It is not a fact that guillotines are routine. Their use by this Admini- Deputy Brian Cowen: The Taoiseach is on his stration is excessive, accounting for 44% of all feet. Deputies should have a bit of respect. It is guillotines since 1921. We object to what has the same racket from over there all of the time. become the Government’s habit of ignoring the House. Deputy Enda Kenny: The Tańaiste is barking away all of the time. Deputy Mary O’Rourke: Off with his head. The Taoiseach: The reason is that advice from (Interruptions). the Attorney General’s office on the transfer indicated that this provision would normally be An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy O´ Caolaín with- done by an order. It would not usually come out interruption. before the House. However, due to recent cases, the Attorney General has stated that certain pro- Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: Regarding the visions relevant to the transfer of functions Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 2007, cannot be included in a transfer order and that it has become the pattern during the closing days we need primary legislation. We will debate until of any session for the Government to force 6 o’clock why something will now be done by through legislation with a guillotine attachment. statutory Act rather than by an order. The It is objectionable at any time, but to see it suggestion we would need so much time is imposed mid term is outrageous. I am not sure as ridiculous. to whether there is a precedent. An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal agreed? Members are entitled to the opportunity to participate fully in important legislation that Deputy Emmet Stagg: No. reflects on local government and that is being watched carefully by our elected colleagues An Ceann Comhairle: I must put the question. throughout the State. It is imperative that we do our business properly. The guillotine is Question put: “That the proposal for dealing unacceptable. with No. 2 be agreed to.” 1057 Order of 14 November 2007. Business 1058

The Da´il divided: Ta´, 73; Nı´l, 61.

Ta´

Nı´l

Allen, Bernard. Lynch, Ciarań. Bannon, James. Lynch, Kathleen. Breen, Pat. McCormack, Pa´draic. Broughan, Thomas P. McHugh, Joe. Burke, Ulick. McManus, Liz. Burton, Joan. Mitchell, Olivia. Byrne, Catherine. Morgan, Arthur. Carey, Joe. Naughten, Denis. Clune, Deirdre. O´ Caolaín, Caoimhghıń. Coonan, Noel J. O’Dowd, Fergus. Coveney, Simon. O’Keeffe, Jim. Crawford, Seymour. O’Mahony, John. Creed, Michael. O’Shea, Brian. Creighton, Lucinda. O’Sullivan, Jan. D’Arcy, Michael. Penrose, Willie. Deenihan, Jimmy. Perry, John. Doyle, Andrew. Quinn, Ruairı´. Durkan, Bernard J. Rabbitte, Pat. English, Damien. Reilly, James. Enright, Olwyn. Ring, Michael. Feighan, Frank. Shatter, Alan. Ferris, Martin. Sheahan, Tom. Flanagan, Charles. Sheehan, P. J. Flanagan, Terence. Sherlock, Seań. Hayes, Brian. Shortall, Ro´ isıń. Hayes, Tom. Stagg, Emmet. Higgins, Michael D. Stanton, David. Hogan, Phil. Tuffy, Joanna. Howlin, Brendan. Upton, Mary. Kehoe, Paul. Wall, Jack. Kenny, Enda.

Tellers: Ta´, Deputies Tom Kitt and John Curran; Nı´l, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg. 1059 Order of 14 November 2007. Business 1060

Question declared carried. Deputy Denis Naughten: At least one could debate it. Deputy Enda Kenny: I wish to raise a matter mentioned in this House several times by Deputy Deputy Joan Burton: During the last Govern- Naughten to do with a report produced in 2001 by ment the Taoiseach professed himself many times the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and to be committed to regulating and legislating for Children chaired by Deputy Jim O’Keeffe. management companies and agents of apartment Deputy Jim O’Keeffe in his report requested that blocks and housing developments. We are in a the issues raised in the report be debated in both declining property market where many new hous- Houses of the Oireachtas. The report was on the ing developments and apartment blocks in west compensation for victims of vaccine damage in Dublin are subject to management companies. the national vaccination programme. Deputy Despite the issue being debated here several Naughten has raised this several times, but it has times we are no closer to regulating management not been debated in this House. Victims of vacci- companies. Many young home owners pay up to nation have no bereavement entitlement because \2,500 per year to management companies that they were not in a position to work and therefore give bad service. They charge high rates and do had made no PRSI contributions. Could the little. The Taoiseach has said this area should be Taoiseach deal with that, even if he does not have regulated. It is one more constraint on a declining the information now? property market. In respect of the George Mitchell Scholarship Fund Act 1998 (Amendment) Bill, I note that it An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy must pose is intended to bring in legislation next year to a question on legislation. facilitate an increase in Ireland’s con- 12 o’clock tribution to the fund over the next Deputy Joan Burton: We have a promise from five years. While I support that, why the Taoiseach. is it necessary to introduce legislation to increase the State’s contribution when it already contrib- An Ceann Comhairle: I will have to impose utes? It might be possible to do this by ministerial Standing Orders. order and a debate on that. Deputy Joan Burton: The property services The Taoiseach: I will have the first matter regulatory authority legislation is on the list of investigated and see what was agreed in the Bills, but we are getting nowhere with it. What is report. The George Mitchell Scholarship Fund the Taoiseach’s view at this stage? When is his Act 1998 (Amendment) Bill is to increase the Government going to address this issue? There is contribution. It has been judged necessary to no regulation and young people buying homes have primary legislation. In many such issues, like are at the mercy of rogue developers who will not the item we just voted on, because of recent court put management companies on a proper footing. cases the legal position is that we need primary legislation. The old system whereby we would just The Taoiseach: The Law Reform Commission have an order is no longer sufficient. We will have published a consultation paper on multi-unit a great deal of minor legislation in coming years developments last December and it drew atten- and if we debate each one we will never get any- tion to a broad range of issues relating to the where. We will have a great deal of primary legis- governance and operation of such developments. lation to allow us to perform the function of an The issues include the manner in which company order. The order system is no longer considered law currently applies to property management appropriate by the courts. If there is any devi- companies. That paper was very comprehensive ation we need primary legislation, which makes and it makes it clear that the action to address the system more bureaucratic, lengthy, costly—— these problems will be required across several policy fields. We originally thought we could do Deputy Denis Naughten: It makes it more it simply through one Act, but that is not the case. accountable. The report stated that it would affect company law, consumer protection law and the develop- The Taoiseach: I do not agree, but I am not ment of regulatory structures. the courts. Due to the cross-cutting nature of many of the issues identified in the report, I asked that a high Deputy Denis Naughten: The system does not level interdepartmental committee be established work. We are not allowed to raise issues with to assist in the development of a coherent and regard to it. comprehensive response to the problems. A key task of that committee is to identify the legislative The Taoiseach: I do not see that an order listed and administrative actions to be taken in here for 21 days is any better than having primary response to the definitive recommendations for legislation which takes time and is far more legislative reforms, and to determine the time- costly. frame for that. 1061 Order of 14 November 2007. Business 1062

I am asked this question almost every week. I Quality Authority. It has been acknowledged on expect that report will be published by the end of all sides of the House that the failure to include the year, and I will then be able to say something the private hospital providers within the powers else on it. of HIQA is a fundamental weakness——

Deputy Joan Burton: Does that mean that the An Ceann Comhairle: What is the Deputy’s property services regulatory authority Bill is question on legislation? effectively on ice until this committee has reported? People are being left inlimbo regarding Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: The question property management companies. In a declining is about the deficiencies in the legislation on property market, we could do without people’s HIQA itself—— title to their homes being questioned due to the management company relationship to the owner- An Ceann Comhairle: To what promised legis- ship of common land in the vicinity of the prop- lation is the Deputy referring? erty. It is a difficult legal issue. Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I am referring The Taoiseach: The property services regulat- to legislation that will ensure that HIQA has the ory authority Bill was to provide for the establish- required powers to carry out its remit efficiently ment of a property services regulatory authority and effectively across the board, in both the to give effect to the report of the auctioneering public and private sectors. estate agency review group. I have tried to go far further than that and see if we can deal with prop- The Taoiseach: It has already been enacted. erty management companies in a comprehensive way. Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: No it has not. There are deficiencies. Surely—— Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: When? An Ceann Comhairle: The legislation has The Taoiseach: I have just answered that. Did already been enacted. The Deputy’s question is the Deputy hear what I said? for Question Time and is not in order.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: The Taoiseach Deputy Caoimhghı´nO´ Caola´in: That attitude will be out of office. achieves absolutely nothing.

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: I hesitate to ask the Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Sometime before Taoiseach a question because I know he is the last election, the postal services miscellaneous annoyed at being held to account in this place, provisions Bill was promised in this House. The but if he is not busy, perhaps he might—— European courts made a decision in the last few days which now affects positively the future of The Taoiseach: On a point of order, I have An Post and the postal services. Is it the given a comprehensive answer to the Deputy’s Taoiseach’s intention to restore that Bill to the acting leader. I am not entitled to do that under Order Paper? The way has now been cleared for Standing Orders, but I asked the Ceann Comh- it. We need to ensure that the haphazard closure airle if I could do so. I am only meant to answer of post offices and sub-post offices throughout questions on legislation during the Order of Busi- the country does not continue. ness. I was trying to be helpful to Deputy Burton, but having given a comprehensive answer, a The Taoiseach: The Deputy is correct. That Labour Party Deputy ignored what I just said. Bill was in the Da´il, but it was dropped when the That is what is irritating. idea of an ESOP for An Post was dropped.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: People are fed Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Has he anything up waiting. It has been going on for years. more to add?

Deputy Ruairı´ Quinn: The student support Bill Deputy Michael Ring: There was a joint was promised for this session. Students are ten motion in the Daíl last week. Will the Taoiseach weeks into term, but many of them have yet to go to America? We need a bilateral agreement get their grants and are on loans. When will this for our undocumented Irish. The legislation will Bill be published? be dealt with in the US in November, so will the Taoiseach go there to try to do something about The Taoiseach: I understand it will be pub- it? lished shortly, during this session. An Ceann Comhairle: This is not in order. Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: The current critical crisis in cancer care, especially in mam- Deputy Enda Kenny: On a point of order, the mography, has highlighted once again the inad- House agreed unanimously that it would pursue equate powers of the Health Information and the concept of a bilateral agreement with the US. 1063 Joint Administration Committee: 14 November 2007. Motion 1064

An Ceann Comhairle: It was a Private Select Committee on Foreign Affairs: Motion. Members’ motion and it was fully debated. Minister of State at the Department of the Deputy Ring openly contributed to that debate. Taoiseach (Deputy Tom Kitt): I move: We cannot debate it now. That the Orders of Reference of the Select Deputy Phil Hogan: When is it going to be Committee on Foreign Affairs be amended in implemented? paragraph (1)(a) by the deletion of ‘11 members’ and the substitution therefore of ‘13 Deputy Enda Kenny: The motion was members’. amended with the consent of the Government, which had a strong part to play on it. We do not Question put and agreed to. want to divide on this issue. The Taoiseach’s imprimatur is critical to the whole business. Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security: Motion. An Ceann Comhairle: It is not in order now. Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Tom Kitt): I move: Deputy James Bannon: The Health Infor- mation and Quality Authority published its (1) That a Select Committee, consisting of ´ report yesterday, which stated that 51 public thirteen members of Daíl Eireann, be joined with a Select Committee to be appointed by hospitals did not receive a top rating of excel- ´ lence. When can we expect legislation to enforce Seanad Eireann to form the Joint Committee public hygiene in our hospitals? This is affecting on Climate Change and Energy Security to consider, inter alia:- patients right across the country. (a) medium and long term climate change The Taoiseach: As I said to Deputy O´ Caolaín, targets and the key measures needed to meet legislation on HIQA, which is responsible for those targets; enforcing standards, has already been enacted. A (b) the role of the agriculture sector in health amendment Bill will be published next providing bio-fuel and biomass crops and year. consequential implications; (c) the levels of power supply which can Ministerial Rota: Motion. be generated from renewables or other new Minister of State at the Department of the power supplies; Taoiseach (Deputy Tom Kitt): I move: (d) the projected energy demand from That, notwithstanding anything in the Resol- transport and the implications for energy ution of the Daíl of 14th June, 2007, setting out security and emissions targets; the rota in which questions to members of the (e) such other matters as may be referred Government are to be asked, questions for oral to it from time to time by both Houses of answer, following those next set down to the the Oireachtas; Minister for Health and Children, shall be set and to report thereon to both Houses of the down to Ministers in the following temporary Oireachtas in advance of the conclusion of the sequence: post-Kyoto negotiations by the United Nations Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Framework Committee on Climate Change Food; (UNFCCC) and the associated EU 2020 bur- den sharing process. Minister for Foreign Affairs; (2) The Joint Committee shall have the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and powers defined in Standing Orders 83(1) to Employment; (9) inclusive. Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism; (3) The quorum of the Joint Committee shall Minister for Social and Family Affairs; be five, of whom at least one shall be a Member of Daíl E´ ireann and one a Member of Seanad Minister for Community, Rural and Gael- E´ ireann. tacht Affairs; Minister for Transport Question put and agreed to.

where upon the sequence established by the Joint Administration Committee: Motion. Resolution of 14th June, 2007, shall continue with questions to the Minister for Education Minister of State at the Department of the and Science. Taoiseach (Deputy Tom Kitt): I move: That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Question put and agreed to. Orders, the Standing Orders of Da´il E´ ireann 1065 Joint Administration Committee: 14 November 2007. Motion 1066

relative to Public Business are hereby amended Committees, including rules of coverage as follows: and archive access, (1) in Standing Order 99 by the deletion Provided, that in relation to broad- of paragraphs (1)(d), (1)(e) and (4); casting, the Committee shall: (2) by the adoption of the following as an (I) discharge the necessary monitor- additional Standing Order relative to Public ing arrangements for in-House televis- Business: ing and for sound and televised broadcasting of Daíl E´ ireann and its 101A. (1) There shall stand established, Committees; following the reassembly of the Daíl subsequent to a General Election, a Standing (II) review and modify the rules of Committee which shall be joined with a coverage for the televising of pro- similar Committee of the Seanad to consti- ceedings of Daíl E´ ireann and its tute the Joint Administration Committee. Committees; (2) The Committee shall represent the (III) determine rules of access in views of members on the provision of respect of the archive of proceedings of services for and by the Houses generally, and Daíl E´ ireann and its Committees; and may make recommendations thereon to the (IV) determine, subject to the consent Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (“the of the Houses of the Oireachtas Com- Commission”). mission, from time to time the fees to (3) Recommendations of the Committee be payable in respect of broadcasting of shall be subject to— proceedings of Daíl E´ ireann and its Committees. (a) the sanction of the Commission in relation to the financial implications of (d) Such other matters as may be such recommendations; referred to the Committee by the Com- mission from time to time. (b) the regulatory authority of the Com- mission or the Minister for Finance, as (5) Every report which the Joint Commit- provided by law; and tee may make shall be referred to the Com- mission and its Management Committee, (c) the requirement for efficiency and which may prepare a formal response to the economy in the use of Commission recommendations therein. resources and value for money consider- ations generally. (6) The Standing Committee shall consist of fifteen members of Daíl E´ ireann and shall (4) Without prejudice to the generality of include the Party/Group Whips. The quorum paragraph (2), the Committee may advise, of the Joint Committee shall be five, of and make recommendations by way of whom at least one shall be a member of Daíl report to, the Commission, on— E´ ireann and one a member of Seanad (a) Members’ Services, including: E´ ireann. The Joint Committee shall include at least one member of the Commission (i) secretarial and other facilities; (whether Deputy or Senator). The Chairman (ii) library and research services; and of the Joint Committee shall be a member of Daíl E´ ireann. (iii) legal advice services (within the meaning of section 4(2)(e) of the (7) The Joint Committee shall have the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission following powers: Acts 2003 and 2006). (a) power to appoint sub-Committees as (b) Accommodation and facilities, defined in Standing Order 83(3); including: (b) power to engage consultants as (i) the bars, shop and restaurants; defined in Standing Order 83(8); and (ii) the conditions or premises in (c) power to travel as defined in Stand- which members carry out their duties; ing Order 83(9). and (8) The Joint Committee shall have power (iii) security and access. to nominate persons to assist it in its deliber- ations; and such persons shall attend such (c) Communications Services, including: meetings as the Joint Committee may (i) education, media relations and determine. public information services; and (9) The Joint Committee shall report to (ii) broadcasting (in all its forms) of the Commission on its activities on an annual the proceedings of Daíl E´ ireann and its basis, by 31 December each year.’ 1067 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1068

[Deputy Tom Kitt.] graph (2) of the Orders of Reference of that (3) by the deletion of Standing Orders 102 Committee, which, not later than 5th and 103; and December, 2007, shall send a message to the Da´il in the manner prescribed in Standing (4) in Standing Order 112(c) by the deletion Order 87, and Standing Order 86(2) shall of “the Joint Committee on Broadcasting and accordingly apply. Parliamentary Information” and the substitution therefore of “the Joint Administration Committee”. Question put and agreed to. Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 2007: Question put and agreed to. Second Stage (Resumed).

Membership of Committees: Motion. Question again proposed: “That the Bill be Minister of State at the Department of the now read a Second Time.” Taoiseach (Deputy Tom Kitt): I move: Deputy Seymour Crawford: While the That the following members be appointed to Taoiseach claims this legislation is only technical, the Committee on Members’ Interests of Daíl it is of major importance. Since I entered the E´ ireann:— House, the one issue I have had to deal with more often is our road network. In the late 1980s and Deputies Noel Grealish, Peter Kelly, early 1990s, County Cavan, I recall, was known Pa´draic McCormack, Noel O’Flynn and as the pothole county. Jack Wall; I welcome the transfer of the two functions that the following members be appointed to the from the Department of the Environment, Heri- Committee on Procedure and Privileges:— tage and Local Government to the Department of Transport. One must be concerned, however, Deputies Seań Ardagh, Seań Barrett, if this is correct knowing the history of the Mini- Cyprian Brady, Thomas P.Broughan, Ciarań ster for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, for messing Cuffe, John Curran, Noel Grealish, Tom matters up. Hayes, Paul Kehoe, Tom Kitt, Dan Neville, I welcome the statement by the Minister for the SeańO´ Fearghaı´l, Rory O’Hanlon, Aengus Environment, Heritage and Local Government, O´ Snodaigh, Emmet Stagg, David Stanton Deputy Gormley, that the implementation of this and Noel Treacy; change will not involve a negative impact on that the following members be appointed to the funding for non-national roads. However, I ques- Joint Committee on Climate Change and tion his claim that the national vehicle driver file, Energy Security:— NVDF, system enables all vehicles and driving Deputies Bobby Aylward, Seań Barrett, licence transactions processed to be updated in Joe Behan, Dara Calleary, Simon Coveney, real time. When one drives down the M1, cars Ciarań Cuffe, Andrew Doyle, Martin Ferris, break the speed limit without any worry of being Michael Fitzpatrick, Seań Fleming, Phil caught. Up to a quarter of those who should have Hogan, Finian McGrath and Liz McManus; received penalty points did not have them imposed because they are not on the NVDF. that the following members be appointed to the When one considers the number of accidents with Select Committee on Foreign Affairs:— such drivers, one must ask what efforts are being Deputies Seań Ardagh and Tony Gregory. made to update the NVDF and ensure all drivers are brought into line. With the transfer of functions between Depart- Question put and agreed to. ments, the funding implications for non-national roads are serious. While the Minister for the Regional Fisheries Boards: Motion. Environment, Heritage and Local Government Minister of State at the Department of the claims the integrity of the funding will not be Taoiseach (Deputy Tom Kitt): I move: compromised by the transfer, the Minister for Transport will be in charge. I am concerned about ´ That the proposal that Daíl Eireann approve comments made by him when he opened the the following Orders in draft: Castleblayney bypass last week. (i) Regional Fisheries Boards County Cavan has 2,476 km of road, 108 km (Postponement of Elections) Order 2007, of which are national primary and secondary, the remainder consisting of county and regional (ii) Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial roads. It is also a county that has many drumlins, Licences) (Alteration of Duties) Order 2007, a topography that consists of heavy and wet copies of which were laid before Daíl E´ ireann underground soils which require much drainage on 8th November, 2007, be referred to the Joint and make road maintenance expensive. The Committee on Communications, Energy and Minister suggested county councils will have to Natural Resources, in accordance with para- provide 30% of the costs of funding from their 1069 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1070 rate base which will impose serious difficulties. tinue this process through this Bill. The purpose The Border region has had serious problems over of this Bill is to provide for the transfer of certain the years with lack of investment and a sub- functions connected with non-national roads and sequent lack of a rate base. I urge the Minister to the national vehicle and driver file, NVDF, from re-examine this suggestion for the Border region. the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Recently I was in County Donegal attending a Local Government to the Minister for Transport, pleasant function to record Deputy McGinley’s as announced by the Taoiseach last June. The Bill 25 years in the Daíl. There is a major problem also amends the Local Government Act 1998, to with the road network between counties allow the Minister for the Environment, Heritage Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal and Northern and Local Government to make payments from Ireland. While I agree tremendous progress has the local government fund to the Minister for been made through the St. Andrews Agreement, Transport in respect of non-national roads and it is important the Minister for Transport works the expenses incurred by maintaining the NVDF with his Northern Ireland counterparts to ensure records following the transfer of functions. the N2-A5 is upgraded, along with other cross- Section 2 enables the Minister to make regu- Border routes. lations in respect of the NVDF funding being Anyone travelling on the N3 from Dublin to transferred to him through amendment of the Donegal will know the poor state of the road Roads Act 1920. Section 3 allows for the vesting between Cavan and Enniskillen. Much of the of all ministerial consent provisions in respect of debate about the upgrading of the N3 has centred railway orders where the works involved are on the court cases over Tara. There is nothing to prevent the Government from providing the likely to affect public roads. I have experienced funds to bypass Virginia and Belturbet. It is the serious effect that railway orders can have on important that the Minister takes into account a locality. It is right that the Department of that little moneys have been spent by the Transport should be the lead Department in National Roads Authority in the past several administering these orders. Section 4 is a stan- years in counties Cavan and Monaghan. dard provision. When the Minister opened the Castleblayney It makes sense to transfer responsibility for bypass, it was pointed out much damage was non-national roads to the Department of Trans- done to the surrounding local roads during con- port which is responsible for overall transport struction. Engineers estimate it will cost up to \5 development. These measures will not affect the million to repair these roads. As the Minister will funding for non-national roads on which we will meet local groups on the matter shortly, I urge spend more than \600 million this year. That is him to provide funding for these repairs. Up to the benchmark from which we will move forward. \125 million was spent on the bypass. To leave Anybody travelling around the country can see the surrounding county and regional roads in a the benefits of investment over relatively few state of disrepair would be a failure to recognise years. The national roads and motorways have the problems the local people went through while made a significant difference to people’s lives. the bypass was being constructed. To finalise the That investment is guaranteed to continue. bypass, a road between Keady and the old N2 The NVDF plays a significant role in motorist needs to be completed. While the funding has and pedestrian safety and is vital to road safety gone to part 8, the funding must be put in place campaigns, in regulating drivers and vehicles. It as soon as possible. is suitable to transfer responsibility for the 2.4 I have not covered one tenth of the issues I million registered vehicles and 2.5 million wished to raise. While I welcome the Bill, I am licensed drivers to the Department of Transport. concerned by the failure of the Minister for Only five to seven years ago people queued for Transport on the driving test and other issues. I hours to renew their licences or tax their cars. wonder if he is capable of this job. The investment in technology and staff in the licensing and registration offices has paid divid- Deputy Cyprian Brady: I wish to share time ends, making it possible to access these services with Deputy Michael Kennedy. on the Internet. It was difficult for people to have Acting Chairman (Deputy Kathleen Lynch): Is to queue for four or five hours at the then Dublin that agreed? Agreed. Corporation office and cost money through loss of working hours. Deputy Cyprian Brady: Roads in general play The roads maintained by Dublin City Council, a large role in people’s lives, not least in getting previously Dublin Corporation, in some of the from one place to another in a safe and quick suburbs in my constituency are in bad condition, manner. After the 2002 general election, many of because of the major increase in the volume of the functions for road traffic and safety were traffic. Traffic continues 24 hours a day, seven transferred from the Department of the Envir- days a week as major shopping malls on the out- onment, Heritage and Local Government to the skirts of the city remain open all that time. Department of Transport. It makes sense to con- Sunday is probably one of the biggest shopping 1071 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1072

[Deputy Cyprian Brady.] North. The Minister has given an assurance that days in the week. This results in constant use this funding will not be affected by the transfer of which did not exist previously. responsibility from one Department to another. While the introduction of bus and bicycle lanes There are challenges such as new housing is welcome because they make a difference to the estates and this is particularly the case in my con- lives of commuters, some of their surfaces, partic- stituency of Dublin North where fine new roads ularly on the bicycle lanes do not last long. This exist on estates but roads can be more like is also due to the increase in traffic volume. This boreens outside them. This issue must be can be dangerous for cyclists when there is con- addressed and the challenge facing the Depart- fusion as to where a cycle lane starts and stops. ment is to ensure we do not have brilliant roads The Department could deal with this problem. for a couple of hundred metres in an estate and Many foreign registered cars have been substandard roads outside the estate. I feel the imported in recent years causing problems for the Government is prepared for this challenge. Garda and other motorists which the Department The extent to which the National Roads Auth- must examine. Significant strides have been made ority can be held accountable is a problem and I in registering vehicles and licensing motorists but know many Members have mentioned that it problems arise among motorists from outside the does not seem to respond to parliamentary ques- jurisdiction. In some cases the imported vehicles tions and so on. This issue must be addressed are in bad condition and are abandoned around because if we, as public representatives, are to do the city. That causes major problems for com- our jobs properly we must be able to get answers munities because the cars are vandalised and and find out what is being done and when it will sometimes set on fire. be done. Other speakers also referred to long- Many roads in the old areas of the city were term planning and, as someone with experience not made to take today’s volume of traffic and in local authorities who knows county councils have suffered greatly. There should be an audit are trying to formulate three and five year prog- of these secondary roads, some of which have rammes, I feel we owe it to local authorities to become major roads because of development let them know the funding they will receive over around the city. Improvements must be con- a five or ten year period. This would facilitate sidered seriously, and be effected. local authorities and the Department in co- I congratulate Dublin City Council, which operating on the delivery of roads of a high stan- works closely with the Department of Transport, dard for everyone. on developing roads in my constituency, partic- We should acknowledge that major work has ularly around Dorset and Parnell Streets. The Bill been done in the past five or six years such as the is welcome because it does not make sense for M1 motorway that runs through my constituency two different Departments to have responsibility to the Border. It is a fantastic road and the new for the road network. N2 through Ashbourne to Derry is a major benefit to motorists. I feel that combining the Deputy Michael Kennedy: I welcome the functions of non-national roads with those of opportunity to speak on the Local Government national roads will lead to greater efficiency and (Roads Functions) Bill. There are many advan- safety. tages to the proposal to transfer responsibility for There are many advantages to having the non-national roads and for the national vehicle national vehicle driver file, NVDF, under the aus- and driver file, from the Minister for the Envir- pices of the Department of Transport. There are onment, Heritage and Local Government, to the 2.4 million registered vehicles in the country and Minister for Transport. There is no rationale for 2.5 million drivers on a computerised system for continuing to have two Departments and two which the Department of the Environment, Heri- Ministers dealing with issues involving the road tage and Local Government had responsibility. network. The transfer of powers will bring greater This system is useful because it allows updates on efficiency, there will be a reduction in costs and a real time basis. The issue of unregistered drivers our citizens and road users will receive an and vehicles, as mentioned by my colleague improved service from local authorities. Deputy Cyprian Brady, is serious and affects There are many advantages with regard to every town and village in the country. Comments national roads and as the Minister for Transport from other citizens suggest that these vehicles are is responsible for national roads this will benefit not insured and that the drivers do not have everyone. I welcome the fact that the Govern- licences and this is something the Department ment will continue to provide sufficient funding must tackle quickly. Sooner or later there will be and we know that more than \600 million is a serious accident and ordinary, law-abiding promised for next year. That is a significant motorists will pay through higher insurance pre- amount and while we all have roads in our con- miums. The NVDF is important in the manage- stituencies that need upgrading and maintenance ment of our national motor tax and driving substantial progress has been made throughout licence systems and it has played a key role in the country, not just in my constituency of Dublin bringing about proper driver regulation and in 1073 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1074 supporting critical road safety standards. I feel example, the strike by some Dublin Bus workers that it is a step forward for the Department of has contributed to even worse traffic congestion Transport to be responsible for all matters relat- than normal in the city. Hopefully, this dispute ing to road vehicles. will be resolved now that it has been referred to There are challenges and I feel that the data on the Labour Court. penalty points on national vehicle driver file is While an improved public transport system is one such. One hears stories of points not being clearly required to discourage commuters from recorded and it is incumbent on us to ensure that using cars, the generally accepted solution to all who incur penalty points have them endorsed traffic problems is to build new and better roads on their licences. This applies equally to non- and, where possible, to bypass major centres of nationals who are currently not penalised. population. In conjunction with an improved rail- Dublin North has benefited significantly from way transport system, this is the ideal for the investment in roads and it is the fastest growing future. The development of new roads has been constituency in the country, if not Europe. The successful in many instances. However, several county council is planning to confer city status on projects are behind schedule. our county town of Swords in the next 15 to 20 In my county, work has yet to begin on several years as its population grows to 100,000. Having projects in respect of which commitments were two Departments deal with transport-related made. For instance, work was supposed to com- issues is not the way forward and I think combin- mence on the Castleisland bypass this year but ing functions under the Department of Transport has now been put back to 2008. For several years, is a progressive step. Oireachtas Members and other public representa- Reference has been made to railway orders and tives in the area have been campaigning for the the metro will come to Swords via Dublin Airport construction of this bypass. We encountered in 2013. The Department of Transport is respon- ongoing difficulties in our dealings with both the sible for delivery of the metro service so I feel it Government and the NRA. The NRA did not is essential that all issues involving railway orders consider it a priority, it claimed, unless directed be addressed by that Department. The DART is so by the Government. I spoke to people in to be extended from Malahide to Balbriggan and Castleisland whose lives and businesses are the same problems will arise in that case. impacted greatly by the traffic congestion. Motor- Yesterday I read an English report on rural ists frequently find that it takes half an hour to roads and they have similar problems with boy get through the town. racers making rural roads unsafe for law-abiding Thankfully, in the lead in to the election in May citizens to walk or cycle on. It is critical that we and following our representations, a political deal with the standard of rural roads here because commitment to proceed with the bypass was if we want proper safety we need proper surfacing given and agreed to by the NRA. In August, and signage. I believe that it is far more satisfac- however, Deputy Deenihan, Deputy Tom McElli- tory that a single agency deals with this. strim and I met representatives of the NRA who Nobody seems to take responsibility for the told us they were awaiting funding from the provision of park and ride services and, with Government. The former Minister, meanwhile, regard to traffic congestion in the city, it is vital referred all queries back to the NRA. The com- the Department of Transport takes responsibility mitment is there but it must be delivered upon. It for the provision of such facilities. The Depart- is of great importance to people in Castleisland. ment could work with local authorities on this My constituency colleagues and I meet the because at the moment I do not believe the issue manager of Kerry County Council on a regular is being addressed by any Department. If one basis, with his senior executive officials. There is Department is to be responsible for all aspects of major concern on their part about the lack of an transportation it is essential that responsibility for adequate infrastructure to facilitate investment in the provision of park and ride services be brought the area. I appreciate that north Kerry is not under the umbrella of the Department of alone in this. In areas that have suffered because Transport. of a lack of investment, a decline in farming and I commend this Bill to the House. the virtual wiping out of the fishing industry, it is vital to attract investment. The importance of this Acting Chairman: Deputy Martin Ferris has cannot be overstated, especially in peripheral sea- ten minutes to speak. I believe the Deputy seeks board counties. The infrastructure must be in to share time with Deputy Sherlock but we will place to facilitate that investment. However, see how we proceed. there is great concern on the part of the manager of Kerry County Council and his executive that Deputy Martin Ferris: I thank the Labour Party the funding required to develop road infrastruc- for affording me time to contribute to this debate. ture may not be available. While this Bill deals with a relatively minor I acknowledge that much has been done in matter, there are significant issues to be resolved recent years. The upgrade of the Killarney-Tralee in regard to roads and transport in general. For road from Ballycarty Cross to Tralee is welcome, 1075 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1076

[Deputy Martin Ferris.] we all support the principle and implementation as is the ongoing work on the Tralee-Listowel of a road safety plan, we must ensure that motor- road. However, access to the region must be ists with provisional licences are able to under- improved. Investment must be secured that will take a test in time for next May. It is incumbent compliment local industries, particularly in rural upon the Government to ensure this is the case. farming communities where farming is now only a There is a great need for funding for the main- part-time occupation. Such communities require tenance of what are variously called boreens, means of diversifying that allow people to remain back roads, non-national roads or local roads. A living and working in their areas. Infrastructure is recent survey showed that most fatal road acci- vital in this regard. dents occur on these types of roads. It is mind- Every Member has experience of putting ques- boggling that roads only suitable for travelling on tions about roads to the Minister for Transport at 20 km/h or 30 km/h have speed limits of 100 only for those questions to be referred to the km/h. This is absolutely ridiculous. The system NRA. However, ultimate responsibility for fund- must be overhauled without delay. The worst ing such projects rests with the Government. We tragedies contributing to the carnage on our are elected representatives and all of us do our roads have taken place in such circumstances. best for our respective areas. We must have more As a councillor, I argued for years that road of an input into these vital projects and we must safety and driver education should be included in hold the Government to account in providing the the school curriculum. Most drivers develop bad necessary funding. It must not continue to hide habits at a young age. Provision behind the NRA. The Government is ultimately 1 o’clock should be made to educate young responsible for failings in this area. people about good driving habits. There is a pressing need for the Tralee ring That is very important and I advocate that this speedily be made part of the school curriculum. road project to be completed. Austin Stack Park Another aspect I would raise are the com- is on course to be relocated to the former Ballyb- munity involvement and local improvement eggan racecourse, where the GAA hopes to con- schemes. These bring about tremendous work in struct an all-seater stadium with a capacity of the more rural and less noticed parts of our coun- 15,000. The road infrastructure must be in place ties. They should be continued and, if possible, to accommodate that level of people movement given 100% funding or something of a similar nat- and the associated traffic congestion. Although it ure. Ordinary people can contribute to such is included in the Government’s road programme, schemes. there is no certainty as to when the ring road will I am concerned that if one person objects to a be completed. It is of enormous importance to community involvement scheme on a road where Tralee. From Monday to Friday, morning and eight people are living, the process can be held evening, the traffic is absolutely congested. It has up. Something must be done about this and legis- to be seen to be believed. The town centre has lation should be introduced to deal with such a suffered as a result of this as retail units increas- problem. Neighbours may not like each other, ingly move out of town, thus eroding the heart of may fall out or have grievances going back 20, 30 the locality. or 40 years. Such people can stop a process that The proposal to bring large retail units to the would benefit an entire area. Any required legis- centre of Tralee by purchasing what is now Aus- lation should be introduced so that when a tin Stack Park and the John Mitchels GAA pitch majority of people on a road want work to be is welcome. The plans are in place and I under- carried out, it will be done without one person stand the planning application will be submitted holding up the process. in coming days. There is great potential for the town in this development. I cannot stress enough Deputy Sea´n Sherlock: The transfer of func- the necessity of completing the ring road to facili- tions to the Department of Transport seems logi- tate that. There is a Government Member in the cal and laudable in some respects. It can only be area and the Ceann Comhairle is also from north effective if it deals with a certain range of issues. Kerry. Areas such as north Kerry, south Kerry, I can only speak for my constituency of Cork East Clare and so on are crying out for this type of and for the general Cork area, where funding for investment. It is of great importance to local non-national roads has been absolutely derisory. economies in keeping people employed locally If this Bill is to mean anything, it must ensure and in preventing any escalation of emigration. funding is effective and will trickle down through The most recent issue to cause problems for the various divisions within Cork County Council the Minister for Transport was the announcement and its engineering areas. about the regulations governing drivers with pro- What we have seen to date is that roads prior- visional licences. If the original proposal had itised under Transport 21 receive funding, which been followed through, 400,000 drivers would is welcome, but non-national roads or secondary have been effectively put off the road within days, roads receive no funding whatsoever. The N72 with devastating effects on the economy. Thank- and N73 are particular examples. If we are to take fully, however, common sense prevailed. While Mallow, Mitchelstown and Fermoy, which are on 1077 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1078 those routes, one will serve the main tourist route of their house. It adds to the cost of building and between Waterford and Killarney and the other they do not see a return in terms of increased will serve the main route from Kanturk, west of lighting or improvements in the road surface out- Mallow and through to Dublin. side the house. The money is centralised within Mallow currently has hub-town status but we the county council and then divvied out through are not getting the trickle-down effect of financial the division. The northern division of a county incentives to create the northern relief road, council would compete with the southern division which is vital to a town like Mallow and its sur- for funding into specific areas. rounding areas in terms of its attractiveness for The entire area of Government policy as it per- inward investment and the creation of infrastruc- tains to roads must be looked at. If we are to ture around the town. enhance the quality of people’s lives, any effect We need a change in policy and funding for or change in the legislation must ensure this roads such as these. They are vital arteries for happens. towns such as Mallow, Mitchelstown and Fermoy, but they have become dangerous roads because Deputy Mary O’Rourke: I am very glad to of a lack of proper funding. To travel the road speak on this legislation. It is clear it is a technical from Mallow to Mitchelstown on a day such as measure, as we have been told by many speakers, today, in some instances one is taking one’s life in including the Taoiseach, this morning. Be that as one’s hands. Two lorries cannot pass each other it may, it affords us an opportunity to relate comfortably on some parts of the road without experiences about roads and deal with such stopping or slowing down to speeds of 5 km/h or matters through the Minister. 10 km/h. That speaks volumes about the Govern- The Bill is sensible but I have several issues to ment not investing properly in such infra- air. We know the NRA is responsible for major structure. roads and, by and large, it does a very good job Deputy Ferris spoke of community involve- with the highways. I speak in particular about the ment and local improvement schemes. There is ongoing work from Dublin to Athlone. That road almost a begging-bowl mentality in this regard for has been completed up to Kilbeggan and we now public representatives such as myself. I have to await completion of the Kilbeggan to Athlone go cap in hand to local area engineers to seek section and onwards to the west. I hope this will funding or to have certain roads prioritised within happen quickly. divisional engineering areas, which is completely The opening of the Kinnegad to Kilbeggan ludicrous in this day and age. If people pay road section of the route has brought about a signifi- tax and a development contribution for the build- cant difference in journeys from Dublin to ing of a house in a rural part of the county, I do Athlone. This does not necessarily relate to the not see why they should have to pay extra to have time taken, as I find when travelling it still takes a road included in a local improvement or com- the same amount of time for the journey no munity involvement scheme. These people should matter how many roads are built, but there is a have the same rights and entitlements as any great sense of safety and security. It is much eas- other citizen of this State to have the road outside ier to drive on a major national road, although their houses in an acceptable condition. there are toll booths. Travelling at the required The Cork to Limerick road also speaks vol- speed, it takes 35 minutes to get to Kilbeggan umes about Government policy, as we in Mallow from the toll booths. The Moate to Athlone and north Cork have been waiting for this stretch remains the same. northern relief road but are almost at the mercy Everybody in the land knows about the diffi- of Transport 21 and the funding streams of the culties of going through Moate. I hope such diffi- NRA. There is also the question of whether the culties will be eliminated from our travel arrange- NRA will get the requisite funding to be able to ments within six months. Listening to traffic create the Atlantic corridor between Cork and reports on the radio any evening, we are told Limerick, and whether a spur will be created for there are 30 minutes or 35 minutes delays on the the northern relief road. eastern side of Moate and 40 minutes or 45 These are policy issues as to how funding is minutes delays on the western side. It was never implemented at the local level but they have a intended that the town of Moate would be high- great effect on people’s lives. That is what we are lighted in that respect but that has happened speaking to in debating this legislation. Will a nonetheless. Traffic has built up on each side so change in legislation bring about a marked the quicker Moate is bypassed, the better. increase in the quality of people’s lives, as we In areas where bypasses and relief roads must ensure it does? assume such dominance, non-national and rural I spoke about development contributions and roads are overlooked but these are the roads the current funding of local government is com- most people travel on: they never see the major pletely inequitable. If a young couple applies for highways. All of us at our branch general meet- planning permission today, they will be levied at ings are asked about the conditions of these exorbitant rates for contributions on the building roads. We hear horrific stories about the run- 1079 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1080

[Deputy Mary O’Rourke.] ping centre. It is based on 5.5 acres of back gard- down state of the roads and the potholes in them. ens in the main streets in Athlone. It is amazing We should be able to proceed with the road prog- to stand in the shopping centre when it was once ramme for the national and major roads in tan- someone’s back garden. It is in the middle of the dem with county and non-national road improve- town, which is what shopping should be about. ments that will enable people in rural areas to go The British went daft for out of town shopping about their daily lives, bringing children to centres at one time, with people flocking to them. school, shopping and visiting elderly relatives. I never saw the sense of those. Shopping should Many of those things are done on roads of this be integral to the life of a town and inner-town nature. It is vital they are kept up to scratch and shopping centres are more exciting and attractive I am not satisfied sufficient funding is being pro- to townspeople and visitors. People have stopped vided for them, if the stories we are told and the going to out of town shopping centres. experiences we gain are any proof. Road safety and driving lessons should be on When I was first elected to Westmeath County the curriculum at second level. There is no better Council many years ago, the local improvement environment in which to learn about road safety schemes were given out to councillors in the area theory than school. Road safety could be part of and they could claim some of them — I claimed the CPSE course at junior certificate level and at two schemes. Deputy Ferris mentioned that a senior level driver theory could be studied. Rose- local improvement scheme can be held up if one mary Smith, the well known rally driver, is an person refuses to co-operate. There might be advocate of this idea. Driving should be a subject seven dwellings on a road and six occupants are the same as learning about banking, loans and enthusiastic about the scheme but the seventh, other areas. I have seen young women with high while he is enthusiastic, is in a row with someone marks in the leaving certificate who would not competing for the LIS and they cannot reach know how to get a home loan, a mortgage or agreement. When it happens it causes major dis- planning permission. There is a need, therefore, appointment. They are marvellous schemes and for practicality at leaving certificate level. were a great mainstay for local authorities, Developmental levies were mentioned. County although there is not as much concentration on managers and executives have gone mad for these them now. Environmental improvement schemes levies. Young couples who after much effort are similar but the local improvement schemes secure planning permission usually find it is con- were specific to particular roads and house- ditional on the dreaded developmental levy. holders. I hope sufficient money is available in I refer to the significant amounts being charged every local authority budget for the maintenance sometimes in rural Ireland. County managers and of rural and local roads. Once they are done they their colleagues are using this far too handy are taken over with a programme of work laid system of levies for their counties. I know they out to deal with them in the years ahead. are not misusing the money, but my point is illus- Investment by overseas companies depends on trated for example, by a case I came across the road network. We had a salutary experience recently where a development levy of \1,718.50 18 months ago in Athlone. At the time the bypass was charged to a man who lives on a rural road had not reached Kinnegad, and only the toll plaza to which nothing much will be done. He is was in place. By the time the industrialist had required to pay this amount in what is euphem- navigated Enfield, Kinnegad, Milltownpass, istically entitled a developmental levy. This will Rochfortbridge, Tyrrellspass and Kilbeggan, he come on top of whatever costs he has incurred was weary and he decided to go somewhere with on the plans, making a planning application, and much better access. In an economic and industrial going about getting his mortgage and starting his sense, it is important to use our road network to business. good economic advantage. I notice the IDA in its The Minister for the Environment, Heritage literature mentions that Athlone is on the major and Local Government and his deputy, the Mini- road from Dublin to Galway, which will soon be ster of State, who is present today, should pay complete. heed and speak to the county managers when There was a time when terror would grip the they have their annual get-together or whenever community in a town that was about to be they meet. They should tell them to ease off on bypassed because people felt no one would stop development levies that were never meant to be in the town. When we embarked on the Athlone of such a punitive nature that they would inhibit bypass, we went to Naas to see how it had coped a man from building his house. I saw this hap- with its bypass. The traders were delighted with pening recently. it and business had increased. In Athlone, despite This is equally true for industrial development. the bypass that most major trucks take, there is A small, good business in Athlone, which always traffic in the streets and it is still difficult employs 140 people, wished to construct a silo on to do business. its factory premises. There was nothing wrong Deputy Ferris mentioned town centres. We with the silo and the planning permission was recently opened a magnificent inner-town shop- coming. However, as an addition to the develop- 1081 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1082 mental levy, the applicant was informed in the because this is a small country. Everyone is planning permission that he would be obliged to pleased the land will be criss-crossed with a sig- install public lighting and footpaths on the entire nificant number of wonderful roads. I wish well road. The applicant has told me that he will be all those who will drive on them. However this unable to comply. The company in question is a will be no good if the ideals of life at rural, local subsidiary of a German firm, the budget meetings village or townland level are not equally nurtured of which are coming up. While he had no idea and brought forward. how much all this would cost, it would certainly I wish to raise a point regarding the NRA as it be a hefty amount. I believe the county planner performs its work. In my locality, Ascon are the simply said to himself that these rich Germans main contractors for doing such work and I am could afford this easily and could be milked for sure it is a reputable firm. It bypassed Rochfort- as much as he wished. However, it is an Irish sub- bridge, which was fine and the people there were sidiary that gives useful employment. very pleased because it is a small village that This is a heinous development in the wrong needed a bypass because the large trucks passing direction and will kill the cow that has been through were having a bad effect. However, while delivering some much-needed finance. If this con- so doing, many smaller jobs arose that it was tinues, it certainly will put off people from apply- obliged to perform to get the bypass through. I ing for permission or from putting themselves for- refer to felling trees, attending to drains, dealing ward as being eligible for various developments. with a man who made his backyard available to When I protested to the town clerk and the the company and similar matters. Those con- county planner, I was brushed off to an extent by cerned were assured that once clearance was a response asking whether the person in question given, such matters would be attended to. The wanted the permission. The planning system was people gave clearance and thereafter Ascon never meant to operate in that manner and I am moved on to the next village in which there were dismayed by such a development and the manner more things to be done. The people of Rochford- in which this is taking place. bridge were left waiting and wondering what had I revert to the Bill before the House and thank happened to the various points of view they had the Acting Chairman for her generosity in put forward and that Ascon had promised to allowing me to continue in this vein. However accommodate in its overall plan. one does not often get the chance to speak about I wish this Bill well. The Minister for Transport roads in a general sense. My main point today is should watch out to prevent the money being that this measure is logical and clearcut. dropped half way over and attention should be However, I note with some trepidation that the paid to rural and county roads. financial arrangements for the transfer are to be Deputy Terence Flanagan: I wish to share time completed by the end of November at which with Deputies Feighan, English and Kehoe. point the budgets will be reallocated, added to and taken from. Throughout my career in various Acting Chairman: Is that agreed? Agreed. Departments, I have often found that when this is done, a transfer does not mean that one Deputy Terence Flanagan: I welcome the achieves a full transfer or that one gets the full opportunity to speak on this Bill. Like my col- intended value. Often it is a chance to get a leagues on this side of the House, I believe there “schkelp” at the budget by suggesting that some should be a strong business case for transferring money can be taken from one area that no one powers from one Department to another before will notice in a transfer. I am sure the Minister changes take place. In most cases, the change for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, his staff should be for the better. However, given recent and colleagues will look out for such a move and developments within the Department, in part- will ensure they are not diminished in any way icular those pertaining to Aer Lingus and the and that half way between Merrion Street and Shannon debacle, as well as the mess made Kildare Street there will not be a not a drop-off regarding drivers with provisional licences and of a few million euro that would enable the the road safety programme, I am worried. budget to be cut and the value not to be The proposed changes do not make me confi- maintained. dent in respect of the implementation of the The Local Government Fund is the most roads programme. The Minister of State should important mechanism we have to fund local life reassure the House that there will not be a nega- in villages, towns and rural districts. It is neces- tive impact as a result of these arrangements. The sary to keep this in focus always. I refer to the proposed changes will transfer a considerable massive road-building programme that is now degree of financial autonomy from the Minister under way and which is being implemented as the for the Environment, Heritage and Local current mantra would say, on time and in budget. Government to the Minister for Transport. In It is equally necessary to ensure it does not lead view of the magnitude of the responsibilities per- to a lack of emphasis on non-national roads and taining to the local government fund and the regional roads. They should be complementary national vehicle drivers file, effectively the Mini- 1083 Priority 14 November 2007. Questions 1084

[Deputy Terence Flanagan.] gress in our recycling performance. These show ster is giving them away under an agreement that MBT capacity of between 900,000 and 1 mil- made in the programme for Government that the lion tonnes per annum will enable Ireland to meet non-national roads budget, consisting of the its landfill diversion targets under the EU Land- Local Government Fund and the Exchequer fill Directive while reducing the amount requiring grants would be transferred. further treatment to about 400,000 tonnes. MBT The Department of Transport is growing by the capacity of between 1.3 million and 1.4 million day. Given all that is taking place within that tonnes will enable us to meet the more challeng- Department at present, including Transport 21 ing programme for Government target of sending and all the additional work it entails, I question only 10% of all waste to landfill. whether the Department will be capable of As provided for in the programme for Govern- delivering all new projects on time and within ment, my Department is initiating a major inter- budget. national review of waste management policy which will in part focus on how best to advance Debate adjourned. the use of the full range of technologies available for waste management. I am confident that we Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at can rapidly move away from a position where 2.30 p.m. incineration is regarded as the only viable solution for waste management to one in which we Ceisteanna — Questions (Resumed). can exploit a much broader range of technologies to meet our targets in the most environmentally benign way possible. Priority Questions. Deputy Phil Hogan: The Minister mentioned ———— two incinerators on an RTE programme. Perhaps he did not mean to, but he mentioned that two Waste Management. incinerators would be sufficient. However, there 35. Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for are seven incinerators going through the planning the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- process at the moment. The Minister has ment if he will bring clarity and coherence to the obviously taken the view that incineration is no national waste strategy by stating whether the longer a problem. He could have instructed the number of incinerators to be built is two, four, local authorities to review their waste manage- eight or another number; if his preference for two ment plans to eliminate incineration as an option incinerators stands up to his assessment that 1.3 under the section 16 notice which he sent out dur- million tonnes of waste can be treated by MBT, ing the summer months, but he chose not to do in view of the fact that he has not explained the that. Will the Minister indicate how the MBT way he intends to increase MBT to that capacity; capacity of 1.3 million to 1.4 million tonnes will and if he will make a statement on the matter. be achieved? [28883/07] Deputy John Gormley: Let us be very clear Minister for the Environment, Heritage and about what was actually said. I listened one morn- Local Government (Deputy John Gormley): I ing to the Deputy’s party leader quoting me have not made any statement in regard to the directly, if you do not mind, as making reference number of municipal waste incinerators which to incinerators. What I actually said was that we may be developed. Such developments are would require thermal treatment for 400,000 matters for local authorities, in the context of tonnes of waste. The interviewer then came to the their statutory responsibilities under the Waste conclusion that 400,000 tonnes was the equivalent Management Acts, and for commercial decision of two thermal treatment plants, which it is. I was by the private sector. also accused of actually naming the locations of The Government’s policy in regard to waste the two incinerators as Carranstown and Cork. management is clearly set out in the programme Again, I did not do that. If the Deputy listens for Government. It is firmly grounded in a con- very carefully to what I said in an interview on tinuing commitment to the waste hierarchy with “Prime Time”, along with his colleague, Deputy a renewed drive towards the achievement of O’Dowd, he will hear that I outlined in some international best practice in the reduction, re-use detail how this could be achieved. If we start off and recycling of waste. There is a commitment to with a figure of about 3.2 million tonnes, which is meeting our national objectives and EU obli- the amount of waste we will have, this can be gations through an increasing emphasis on reduced if we achieve a recycling rate of 50%. technologies for mechanical and biological treat- The Deputy will agree with me that this is where ment, MBT, of a growing volume of municipal we ought to go and that we can achieve 50% waste. This will significantly reduce the future recycling. In fact, we can go much higher than need for incineration capacity. My Department that, particularly in towns such as Dublin. In this has carried out detailed projections of municipal way the amount of waste can be substantially waste up to 2016 taking account of continued pro- reduced. 1085 Priority 14 November 2007. Questions 1086

The figure the Deputy keeps repeating is 1.3 own party in Fingal County Council actually million tonnes. I am intrigued by this and I have voted for the incinerator in Poolbeg Peninsula. consulted my officials on this matter, because the figure I have mentioned consistently is 1.7 mil- Deputy Phil Hogan: Does the Minister want to lion tonnes. be reminded of what he said in the Poolbeg submission? Deputy Phil Hogan: I am referring to the amount of waste that will be treatable by MBT. Deputy John Gormley: That is the inconsistency that I have to deal with from members of Deputy John Gormley: The Deputy has, per- the Deputy’s party. I do not know where they are haps inadvertently, come across a figure of 1.3 coming from in the matter of waste management. million. I investigated in detail where the Deputy The figures are very clear. We can treat 1.3 mil- may have obtained this figure. It is the MBT lion tonnes through the MBT process. I have capacity that would allow us to go further in deal- been to Austria, where I saw how MBT can work. ing with waste as we would only have to send It is not a high-tech solution, as is often thought about 10% to landfill. The figures are available — it is actually quite low-tech. Black bag or grey and they have been well thought out. The bin waste is sorted and compostable materials are Department has done good work. When the removed. Recyclable waste is also removed as, international review is concluded we will have unfortunately, many people continue to put even more precise figures for the Deputy. recyclable waste into the grey bin. In fact, through MBT an effective recycling rate of about Deputy Phil Hogan: The Minister did not 80% can be achieved. That is the point of it. answer the question I asked. I have no difficulty These MBT sites should be situated at landfill about the figures he mentioned. What he said was sites, which is how it is done in Austria. After that 1.3 million to 1.4 million tonnes of waste separation of the components I mentioned, we would be treatable by MBT. That is what I am can obtain a refuse-derived fuel. That is the point referring to, not the total amount of waste we I was making in my interviews with regard to the have to deal with, which is 1.7 million tonnes. I 400,000 tonnes of waste for thermal treatment. accept that figure, although it may be closer to 2 When I mention thermal treatment I am talking million tonnes. I asked the Minister how he about co-firing or co-incineration. As the waste intends to do this. What system will be used? He can be used in cement kilns, I have already had has obviously thought this through. How much discussions with some cement factories about this. waste will be treatable using the MBT process? It makes sense and it is the way to go. How will it be done? People need to know what this process entails and whether it will be in the Sustainable Development Strategy. public interest. 36. Deputy Joanna Tuffy asked the Minister for The Minister has stated several times that the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- incineration is out of the question, but he has ment the steps his Department is taking to ensure done nothing to stop the plans from going that local authorities, in drawing up their next through the planning process. He has stated in county development plans, will specifically the past that they are a danger to health. That climate-proof those county development plans was mentioned in his submission to An Bord and, for example, allow no building on flood Pleana´la about the proposed incinerator at Pool- plains; and if he will make a statement on the beg. If he reads it he will see that the Green Party matter. [28711/07] stated that incinerators were damaging to people’s health. Deputy John Gormley: Development plans, prepared by local authorities under Part II of the An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is not Planning and Development Act 2000, provide the allowed to quote during Question Time, but I am over-arching strategic framework for develop- anxious to bring the Minister back for a final ment within their areas, ensuring that all develop- reply. ment is sustainable from an economic, social and environmental point of view. As such, the Deputy Phil Hogan: Surely I am entitled to development plan must offer clear guidance on bring the Minister’s memory back to reality in sustainable development policies and objectives, terms of what he said in the past, as he is now in both national and local, which address the full a position to do something about it. range of sustainability issues such as climate change, waste management, transport, urban Deputy Denis Naughten: Mature recollection. development, sustainable communities and the use of natural resources. Deputy Phil Hogan: I ask the Minister again to In June 2007, my Department published answer the question I asked. Development Plans: Guidelines for Planning Authorities. The guidelines state that it is impera- Deputy John Gormley: It is regrettable if the tive that the objectives and strategies set out in Deputy believes all those things. The Deputy’s development plans are compatible with the 1087 Priority 14 November 2007. Questions 1088

[Deputy John Gormley.] pensation to the land developers. That is not Government’s commitment to reducing energy good enough. There should be a mandatory consumption and modifying the impacts of requirement on councillors and county develop- climate change. Development plans should be ment plans not to rezone on flood plains. These consistent with the objectives of national initiat- issues are particularly related to climate change. ives that will address energy and climate change There will be much more rainfall in the future. issues, such as the National Climate Change There will be more extreme weather events. For Strategy 2007-2012, which builds on the commit- example, a few years ago Lucan experienced its ment to sustainable development set out in worst flooding in 100 years. That type of flooding Towards 2016 and the National Development might happen every 50 years or 20 years in the Plan 2007-2013. Moreover, the conclusions in the future. The Department has quoted studies which EPA state of the environment report and other state that there will be a 2% increase in evidence on environmental quality and trends temperature—— should inform the drafting of development plans and be reflected as appropriate in their objectives An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question and implementation. please. The guidelines state that flood risk should be considered at relevant stages of the planning and Deputy Joanna Tuffy: ——which will happen development process and the aim should be to irrespective of what we do about reducing our ensure that existing flood risks are either reduced emissions and such like. Therefore, there will be or addressed and that new development does not a real problem. individually or cumulatively give rise to new flood If the development plans drawn up in two years risks. My Department, in conjunction with the time include irresponsible rezonings such as those Office of Public Works, is preparing more com- in the past which promote urban sprawl, all the prehensive guidance on flooding and the planning Minister’s carbon targets will be cosmetic if he system with a view to its issue for public consul- will allow local authorities to continue to rezone tation and finalisation next year. without regard to the flooding and climate change The strategic environmental assessment carried consequences. What will the Minister do about it? out as part of the preparation and review of the development plan can help to bring environmen- Deputy John Gormley: I must agree with the tal issues into sharper focus during the consul- bulk of what Deputy Tuffy stated. Of course we tation process, and should improve the overall require responsible planning. I listened carefully sustainability of the plan-making process by facil- to what the Chairman of An Bord Pleana´la itating the identification and appraisal of alterna- stated. He was simply echoing what I have stated. tive plan strategies, by raising awareness of the The planners in local authorities are getting clear environmental impacts of plans, and by encourag- directions, namely, that at this stage it makes no ing the inclusion of measurable targets and sense to build on flood plains. indicators. As Deputy Tuffy will probably be aware, as Deputy Joanna Tuffy: I thank the Minister. Minister I can intervene — I do so reluctantly — The Environmental Protection Agency has called when what I might call “mis-zoning” takes place, for county development plans to be climate pro- and there have been examples of that. ofed. The Minister has stated what is in place at It is clear that the planners at local level would present in terms of guidelines, that to which one be remiss if they recommended building on a must have regard, what local authorities should flood plain. At this stage I do not think that any- promote, etc. The problem with all of that is it is one would do that. just too vague. There are no requirements on Where the difficulty arises is that there may be local authorities to ensure that climate proofing irresponsible councillors who decide, for what- is taken into account in drawing up and voting on ever reason, to proceed in this fashion and build county development plans. on a flood plain. All of the evidence, from the That problem was very much identified by the EPA and others, suggests this is foolhardy. chairman of An Bord Pleana´la at the end of last Indeed, Deputy Tuffy pointed out that in some week when he spoke about—— cases in parts of the country there has been a 20% increase in precipitation and the risk of flooding An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question has increased. Furthermore, as we build more, please. one finds that the hard surfaces mean there is less drainage and there is an increased danger of Deputy Joanna Tuffy: I am informing the Mini- flooding. For all of these reasons in my meetings ster that the chairman of An Bord Pleana´la iden- with local authority members we have stated that tified a problem. He stated that if councillors this is not the way to go. rezoned land on flood plains, for example, An Of course I can issue directives and I will be Bord Pleana´la might have to override those issuing planning directives. In fact, before rezonings on the grounds that it would be on Christmas I will issue new density guidelines flood plains and that there may be issues of com- which will take account of flooding risk. 1089 Priority 14 November 2007. Questions 1090

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We move on to Sunday Tribune this week showed quite clearly Question No. 37 in the name of Deputy Ciarań that the register is overestimated by 105%. Lynch. I take on board what the Minister is saying, that there is an extensive review under way at Deputy Joanna Tuffy: I had indicated. present. According to his Secretary General’s information to the committee yesterday, there An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I am afraid we are has been no change in the draft register figures. one minute over the time. In fact, it shows that the same problems will arise. Given that the census coincides with what is Deputy Joanna Tuffy: I had indicated already. happening — I take on board the point that a census takes place every five years but there has An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We are one just been one — and we are facing into the local minute over the time. There are six minutes allo- elections, there is the opportunity to sort some- cated for each priority question and we have used thing out. seven. The way we are going, that means we will Even with the new figures, where I believe not get to the last one. there is a drop of 32,000, the number on the register is still estimated to be 120,000 above the Register of Electors. number of voters in the country. If we take the 37. Deputy Ciarań Lynch asked the Minister recent constituency boundary reports, that for the Environment, Heritage and Local amounts to almost five Deputies on the basis that Government if he will correlate the census to the 25,000 people are represented by one Deputy. electoral register at a future date; the way he will Therefore, there are either five too many reconcile the major discrepancies between the Deputies or five too few Deputies, and this must draft register of electors and the census figures in be corrected. advance of the forthcoming local elections; and if There are three underpinning factors to do he will make a statement on the matter. with the register of electors — completion, accu- [28712/07] racy and security. Under any of those three criteria the current system is badly flawed. I Deputy John Gormley: In law the preparation acknowledge the Department is putting money of the register of electors is a matter for each into correcting it, but it is putting money into the local registration authority. It is their duty to same system and all that will create are more of ensure, as far as possible and with the co-oper- the same problems. ation of the public, the accuracy and comprehen- Could we not look at this in a visionary way siveness of the register. which has two aspects, that there is the system in The compilation of the register and the carry- which the register of electors is compiled and ing out of a census are different processes with there is the method by which individual citizens different statutory requirements. In addition, engage with it? The system needs a massive over- there are usually significant timing differences haul involving a move from a household regis- between the census and the register, with the cen- tration system to an individual registration system sus being carried out once every five years and and the creation of processes such as the use of the register being compiled on an annual basis. the PPS system, which the Minister supported in Therefore, care needs to be taken in making com- parisons between these separate processes. this House at an earlier time when he was sitting In working to compile the register for 2007-08, in a different seat. which is currently in force, registration authorities The Minister stated that he will put together a undertook and completed the most extensive national commission. Perhaps that makes sense registration campaign in decades. On the basis of because at present there are 34 local authorities the work undertaken, registration authorities trying to compile registers where there is no have achieved a significant improvement in the guarantee of standard, no measurement and no accuracy and comprehensiveness of the register core funding, and local authorities respond to this compared to previous years. in an ad hoc fashion. Would his Department now My Department has advised authorities that consider changing the system and engaging a pro- the approach this year should be to maintain and cess where the individual citizen is measured build on the progress they have made to date. through the PPS system for the exercise of his or Looking ahead, the programme for Government her franchise? contains a commitment to establish an independent electoral commission. The Commission’s Deputy John Gormley: Deputy Lynch raised a responsibilities will include taking charge of the number of interesting points. He is correct in stat- compilation of a new national rolling electoral ing that there is real inconsistency between many register. of the local authorities. I myself discovered that. Even in the compilation of the register, in Deputy Ciarań Lynch: It would appear that the whether it is available electronically and in how Minister is saying that everything seems to be it is conducted, there is little consistency. I agree okay, and such is not the case. An article in The there is work for my Department in that regard. 1091 Priority 14 November 2007. Questions 1092

[Deputy John Gormley.] Planning Issues. I hope many of these constructive suggestions 38. Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister being made can be fed into our idea for an elec- for the Environment, Heritage and Local toral commission. It takes it away from my Government the steps he will take to improve Department. I accept a loss of power is involved planning guidelines for planning authorities to but most Deputies at this stage agree this is a address the phenomenon of the social segregation most important issue and it needs to be addressed of immigrants in rapidly expanding new com- properly. The right place for that to be done is in munities; if he will review the present planning a separate, independent electoral commission. I guidelines; and if he will make a statement on the am drawing up proposals for the establishment of matter. [28885/07] an electoral commission, the details of which will be debated in the House. I hope the very good Deputy John Gormley: Development plans ideas mooted by Deputy Ciarań Lynch will be fed prepared by local authorities under Part II of the into that commission. Planning and Development Act 2000 provide the It must be acknowledged that some progress over-arching strategic framework for develop- has been made. There were huge discrepancies ment within their areas. It is mandatory for and over-estimations which are not acceptable. development plans to provide objectives, inter However, voting is not compulsory. People have alia, for the integration of the planning and sus- a right not to be on the register and not to vote. A tainable development of an area with the social, significant awareness campaign is required. Many community and cultural requirements of the area people believe they are automatically put on the and its population. register. As a practising politician, Deputy Ciarań The plans are also required to provide objec- Lynch will be aware there is great ignorance on tives for community services. Part V of the Act the matter. Many things need to be done and I requires, in addition, that planning authorities hope the Deputy can feed his ideas into the elec- include in their development plans a housing toral commission. strategy which must address the housing needs of existing and future population of the area Deputy Ciarań Lynch: The Minister reminded covered by the development plan. Guidelines me of the “Scrap Saturday” show when he issued by my Department in 2000 in regard to referred to getting registered. Pat O’Connor Part V of the Act state, inter alia: “The strategy found he was registered twice and voted twice in should encourage the development of mixed and some election. It was a running theme on that balanced communities in order to counteract show. undue social segregation.” In June 2007, my Department published guide- Deputy Phil Hogan: He was not registered lines for planning authorities on development twice. plans. The guidelines recognise the changing demographic and settlement patterns in Ireland Deputy Ciarań Lynch: From what I remember in recent years and state that development plans he voted twice anyway. must set a clear vision for development while I take on board what the Minister said and I acknowledging and factoring in the wider econ- welcome the fact that he intends to put some omic, social and environmental trends. direction on this matter. My question is when he The Government’s housing policy statement, intends to put the commission in place and Delivering Homes, Sustaining Communities, sets whether he intends to provide specific terms of out a strategy to put the building of sustainable reference regarding the direction in which he communities at the core of housing policy. The wants the commission to go. All the independent housing policy statement recognises that a sus- reports show that if we keep spending money on tainable neighbourhood is better able to support our current system we are throwing good money the social integration of different income groups after bad, because it will keep giving us what we and thereby provide a better means for new- got if we keep doing what we are doing. comers to integrate and participate fully in Irish society. Deputy John Gormley: Yes, I will produce I understand from my colleague, the Minister terms of reference. Because this is such an of State with responsibility for integration, that as important issue I would like an all-party approach part of the national action plan against racism, to be taken, in the same way as I sought an all- Planning for Diversity, the National Consultative party approach to the Green Paper on local Committee on Racism and Interculturalism has government. Many of Deputy Ciarań Lynch’s col- commissioned the Centre for Housing Research leagues sit on the consultative committee and do and University College Dublin to carry out the very good work. When drawing up the terms of first major scoping study on issues related to reference I intend to consult broadly with housing and intercultural neighbourhoods in members of the Opposition such as Deputy Ireland. The research will examine the possible Ciarań Lynch so we can get the most important implications of greater ethnic and cultural diver- aspects included in the terms of reference. sity for housing planning and provision and more 1093 Priority 14 November 2007. Questions 1094 specific accommodation issues. To oversee this us get integration right and let us get housing research, a broadly-based advisory group has densities right. been established, which includes my Department, Dublin City Council, the Reception and Inte- Deputy Denis Naughten: I acknowledge what gration Agency, the Equality Authority, the the Minister said in regard to what new communi- Northern Ireland Housing Executive, the Immi- ties coming from abroad bring to this country. grant Council of Ireland, South Dublin County However, is it not the case that Part V of the Council and the Vincentian Centre for Refugees. Planning and Development Act, which was The study is due to be published in January 2008. enacted seven years ago in 2000, dealt with the issue of economic segregation? Is it not the case Deputy Denis Naughten: I thank the Minister that in housing estates in places like Clonee, huge for his response. The difficulty is that he is talking ghettoes are developing? We need action on this about scoping studies and advisory groups. The issue now. What immediate steps is the Minister habit of the Government in the past ten years has prepared to take in terms of publishing guidelines been to produce report upon report and never on that specific issue? implement action. Is the Minister aware that of the children who are leaving schools in Dublin 15, Deputy John Gormley: Economic segregation one third of them are being replaced by children is already evident in many cases. from immigrant communities. There is a signifi- Deputy Denis Naughten: That is what Part V cant trend in parts of the country, especially in of the Planning and Development Act was sup- Dublin, for the phenomenon known as “white posed to address. flight”. If we drag our heels on this issue, will it not be too late, as ghettoes will already have Deputy John Gormley: In many cases econ- developed? What specific action does the Mini- omic segregation has very little to do with plan- ster intend to take to ensure that what is currently ning, it relates to the fact that many immigrants happening in Dublin 15 is not replicated around are willing to do work which Irish people no the country? We need action now, not in a couple longer want to do. If one goes to a filling of years. station——

Deputy John Gormley: We are already taking Deputy Denis Naughten: The Minister is avoid- action. I highlighted previously to the Deputy in ing the question. regard to Part V of the Planning and Develop- ment Act 2000 that what we wanted to achieve Deputy John Gormley: I am not. That is the was proper integration not segregation. The prob- situation. The Deputy is confusing a number of lems Deputy Naughten referred to were iden- issues. In terms of planning, the real issue is that tified as far back as the year 2000. We do not we provide good planning — planning has to be need to be alarmist about this issue. We have paramount — that services are properly provided seen good integration take place. and that the proper densities are put in place. I do not know whether Deputy Naughten list- That is the way to go. There is no way one can ened to the President speak on the “Late Late put up a “whites only” sign as part of the planning Show”. She acknowledged the great contribution process. That will not happen. people coming to this country are making. One can look at some of the schools in my constitu- Deputy Denis Naughten: I am not proposing ency where many immigrants have made a fantas- that but the Minister avoided it very well. tic contribution and enhanced our country. I refer, for example, to a student from Synge Street Social and Affordable Housing. who won the young scientist of the year award. If 39. Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for anything, immigrants are bringing up standards in the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- many schools. ment his plans to reform housing and local Too often we tend to highlight immigration as government legislation in order to provide more an issue that will result in doom and gloom, but Part V social and affordable housing; and if he that is not the case. We should see it very much will make a statement on the matter. [28886/07] as an opportunity. What we need are 3 o’clock proper housing estates which have Minister of State at the Department of the proper housing densities. I will issue Environment, Heritage and Local Government new guidelines in the run-up to Christmas. This (Deputy Batt O’Keeffe): A review of Part V of issue does not just involve the new communities, the Planning and Development Act 2000, under- it involves everyone. We must ensure the pro- taken by my Department in 2002 in consultation vision of schools, child care, proper infrastructure with a wide range of interested bodies including and transport links in new housing estates local authorities and representatives of the house because, otherwise, we will have the creation of building industry, professional institutes and vol- ghettoes, regardless of whether these people untary housing providers, concluded that greater come from other countries or were born here. Let flexibility in the operation of the Part V mechan- 1095 Other 14 November 2007. Questions 1096

[Deputy Batt O’Keeffe.] may propose to give money but the final decision ism was required. Measures to achieve this were is that of the local authority. Local authorities can contained in the Planning and Development give sanction. A preferred option for us is that (Amendment) Act 2002, which introduced a they would get completed units; that is important. range of flexible options for compliance with In fact, the overall acquisition of completed units Part V. represents 85% of the total number of affordable I am satisfied that the approach adopted has houses, which is a significant figure. In terms of had a positive impact on the operation of Part V the money that is now with the local arrangements. From a position where just 46 authorities—— homes were delivered under Part V in 2002, delivery has increased significantly since then, An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I want to fit in a with close to 2,200 social and affordable homes supplementary if I can. coming on stream under the Part V mechanism in 2006. In total, up to the end of June 2007, over Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I want to give the 5,300 social and affordable houses had been Deputy a comprehensive answer. In terms of the acquired and in excess of 5,000 units were in pro- money that is with local authorities, I have asked gress at that stage on foot of Part V agreements all local authorities for a report as of the end of with developers. 2006 on what happened with that money because I am satisfied that the Part V mechanism is they can use it to purchase and subvent afford- operating effectively, evidenced by its signifi- able houses. They can use it to purchase land to cantly increased delivery of both social and develop social and affordable houses. I intend to affordable housing. While I have no plans to monitor that. I have requested a report for 2006 amend the legislation, I will continue to monitor and will request a further one in 2007 but I am closely the workings of the Part V mechanism to satisfied that in 2007—— ensure they continue to meet the needs of the target groups for which they are designed. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Thank you, Mini- ster. I will take a brief supplementary from Deputy Phil Hogan: I cannot understand the Deputy Hogan. reason the Minister of State can be happy with the output under the Part V mechanism of the Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: ——real progress is social and affordable housing scheme when being made. 90,000 houses were built in 2006, 20% of that is 18,000 and the Minister got 2,400. First, why are Deputy Phil Hogan: I thank the Minister for we only getting slightly in excess of 2,000 houses indicating he will ask the local authorities for under the Part V mechanism when we should be explanations about all of the money in their funds getting much more based on the number of because the low level of output is surprising. Has houses built? Second, how much money has been the Minister done any calculations on what is collected by each local authority and what are likely to be the rollout of affordable housing they doing with it? nationally in 2007 and 2008?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I am pleased the Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: A total of 3,216 afford- Deputy asked me about the number of houses able homes were produced in 2006. That was 20% and the 20% because there has been misrepresen- up on 2005. Delivery in the first six months of tation of the facts regarding the 20%. One must 2007 was 5% up on 2006. A full year target has understand that it does not apply to a develop- been set for the delivery of 5,000 homes in 2007, ment of under five houses, a development on and we have a target of 17,000 for the period lands of 0.1 hectare or to housing on land not 2007-09. That is a high target but we are satisfied zoned for development purposes. Voluntary we can reach the target set out for us over those housing bodies are excluded and there are some three years. ten year planning permissions in force where the Part V delivery did not account for it. If there is Other Questions. delivery of, say, 75,000 housing units in 2007, An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Minister will 25,000 of those will be one-off housing and 10,000 have one minute and other Members one minute will be made up of social and affordable housing. for supplementary questions, which is open to There is also the voluntary aspect and other all Members. issues involved. It is important to state that the type of figures that have been bandied about are not inaccurate and the progress to date has been Private Rented Accommodation. significant. Does the Deputy want me to answer 40. Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the the question on the amount of money collected? Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government if his attention has been Deputy Phil Hogan: As of June 2007, \73.5 drawn to the fact that 239 illegal evictions were million was collected and is in the coffers of the carried out against tenants in the private rented local authorities. In many instances the developer sector in 2006; if he plans to bring legal protection 1097 Other 14 November 2007. Questions 1098 against eviction into line with international ing period for people faced with eviction or for human rights standards; and if he will make a those who, in the event of illegal eviction, must statement on the matter. [28620/07] wait far too long for redress from the PRTB? In many cases they cannot even manage to contact Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: I understand the figure the PRTB by telephone. of 239 relates to cases reported to the Threshold That so many illegal evictions occur means organisation and that it includes threatened landlords are not aware of their duties. Legis- terminations, the majority of which were fore- lation must be strengthened and more action stalled. I understand also that where an illegal must be taken to ensure such evictions do not eviction occurred the matter was referred to the occur and security of tenure is reinforced instead Private Residential Tenancies Board’s dispute of being put under threat, as is seemingly sug- resolution services. gested here. It is considered that the provisions of the Resi- Does the Minister of State know how many dential Tenancies Act 2004 are compatible with landlords are registered with the PRTB as a per- international human rights standards as, in draft- centage of the overall number? ing the legislation, particular account was taken of the provisions of the European Convention on Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The number of private Human Rights. The 2004 Act provides significant rented accommodations registered with the improvement to tenants’ security of tenure based PRTB has increased dramatically from a few hun- on a four year tenancy cycle and a significant dred in 2002 to approximately 200,000 in 2006. increase in the length of notice related to the dur- This is an important opportunity to clarify the ation of the tenancy landlords are required to matters of the Threshold commentary and the give to terminate a tenancy. Once a tenancy has 239 illegal convictions. Threshold agrees that, due lasted six months, it can only be terminated dur- to early intervention, most of the cases were ing the remaining three and a half years of the resolved. In 2006, illegal eviction cases accounted cycle for a limited range of specific reasons set for 1% of all cases received by the PRTB. To out in the Act. date in 2007, 56 of the 1,250 cases received by the The Act sets out the rights and obligations of PRTB related to illegal evictions. Anyone exam- landlords and tenants, including the right of ten- ining the new system sees that it produces ants to the enjoyment of peaceful and exclusive occupation of their dwelling. It specifies the cir- decisions, is fair to the landlord and the tenant cumstances and conditions under which a tenancy and is expeditious compared to court pro- can be terminated, which must be in accordance ceedings. with the provisions of Part 5 of the Act, including The PRTB is not under-resourced. Spending \ the form of termination of notice. The Act pro- on its services will be approximately 3.8 million, vides an effective means of redress through the in addition to which I have secured the funding PRTB in the event of illegal evictions. It takes a necessary for the board’s move to its new head- robust approach to illegal terminations, including quarters early next year. provision for the holding of emergency tribunals and for interim or interlocutory injunctions Local Authority Auditing. through the courts where necessary. 41. Deputy Phil Hogan asked the Minister for The PRTB has been effective in responding to the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- illegal terminations and implements a fast-track ment the reason local authorities are establishing approach in the resolution of such disputes. The board can also award substantial damages for new audit committees; and if he will make a state- stress and disruption where this is warranted. I ment on the matter. [28428/07] understand the security of tenure provisions in the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 are operating Deputy John Gormley: Expenditure by local \ well, and there is no proposal currently for authorities is projected to reach 9.5 billion in amendments to these provisions. It is a function 2007 and it is vital that the oversight of financial of the PRTB to keep the operation of the legis- management and control systems in these bodies lation under review and to make recom- reflects best practice. Section 5 of the Local mendations regarding any amendments it con- Government (Business Improvement Districts) siders necessary. Act 2006, which replaced the provisions in the Local Government Act 2001, provides a frame- Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh: It is good to hear work for the establishment by local authorities of the PRTB believes it has a fast-track approach audit committees with an appropriate structure and that everything is going well. It is a pity and remit. nobody else in the sector appears to believe that. Earlier this year, all city and county councils I do not believe, and I wonder if the Minister of were asked to set up audit committees and were State believes, that the PRTB is properly provided with guidance on their role, functions resourced to carry out its limited functions. If it and membership. I am pleased that progress in is not, what steps will the Minister take to ensure their establishment has been good. Some 15 city it is properly resourced and that there is no wait- and county councils have set up audit committees 1099 Other 14 November 2007. Questions 1100

[Deputy John Gormley.] directors as an authority serving a population of while arrangements for their establishment else- 250,000. where are being finalised. How often will the audit committees meet and The new audit committees will continue the will there be secretariats to support them? Are ongoing modernisation of the finance function of the committees necessary? local authorities. Improvements already in place include the change to full accrual accounting, the Deputy John Gormley: If we are to hold local professionalisation of the finance function and a government to account financially, they are greater emphasis on risk management. A new necessary. The Deputy referred to the significant costing system for local authorities will be role played by and the considerable expenditure implemented next year to ensure that services involved in local government. From the budget- provided by the authorities are costed on a con- ary process on which I have embarked, I know sistent basis. how important it is to have a proper local govern- The functions of an audit committee under the ment fund. new provisions are to review financial and We require efficiency at local government budgetary reporting practices and procedures level. When I was a councillor, I saw expenditure within a local authority, foster the development on items I considered to be extravagances. Each of best practice in the internal audit function, Deputy who has served on a local authority will have seen such expenditure and wondered why review auditors’ reports and special reports and the authority took that particular route. We can assess follow-up action by management, assess save money through the audit committees if they and promote efficiency and value for money, do their job properly. The idea must be con- review risk management systems and make such sidered and expanded upon. recommendations to the authority as the commit- I hope the House considers the new Green tee considers appropriate in respect of these Paper on local government reform. People are matters. An audit committee will have an inde- examining in detail the possibility of expanding pendent role in advising the local authority, but the audit committees’ role. I hope this aspect will it will not have executive functions. be addressed when we reach our conclusions in The new provisions allow for the inclusion of the Green Paper, which will be published shortly outside expert membership. They should gener- after Christmas. ally have five members, including at least three external members and up to two serving or Deputy James Bannon: All council members retired councillors. The chair of the committee on the finance or budget committees are account- will be selected by its members. In line with best able to their electorates. They have done a good practice, this will be one of the external members. job to a large extent and one would not accuse elected members of wasting funding. They have a Deputy James Bannon: Local government is an hands on approach to how their counties or cities essential element in any democratic state. It is the should be developed. How often does the Mini- machinery by which important services are pro- ster expect the new audit committees to meet? vided. Everyday when we get up and go outside our doors, we see the services put in place by Deputy John Gormley: It will depend on what local authorities, such as public lighting, road they are examining. The crucial difference is that infrastructure, water services, sewerage systems the committees will include external members. etc. Sometimes, if councillors were involved in decisions with expenditure implications, they An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Does the Deputy could not adjudicate on their performance prop- have a question? erly. I hope the committees will meet as often as necessary. When people are only in receipt of Deputy James Bannon: Each local authority expenses and work is not properly remunerated, has a local government auditor, director of finan- one cannot expect the same extent of work. cial services, a budget committee, finance com- I did not answer the Deputy’s question on the mittees etc. and each committee needs a sec- embargo. It is a separate matter, but it must be retariat. Are the new committees necessary? As addressed if we are to have functioning local additional staff are required to man the sec- government. I want greater staff numbers. I was retariats, will the embargo on local government surprised that the same number of people is staffing be lifted to accommodate their staffing employed in local authorities as in the early requirements? 1970s. Given the population increase since then, The public wants a better delivery of services. this must be addressed. As more committees have been established within the local government system, I question Environmental Protection Agency. whether Better Local Government is working. 42. Deputy Jan O’Sullivan asked the Minister There may be too many directors of services in for the Environment, Heritage and Local small local authorities. For example, an authority Government if local authorities, river basin dis- with a population of 35,000 may have as many tricts and the Environmental Protection Agency 1101 Other 14 November 2007. Questions 1102 will be enabled to recruit additional personnel to Deputy Joanna Tuffy: If the Minister is con- ensure that river basin management plans are sidering doing something about the staffing drawn up in time for their deadline of 2009 and embargo that is welcome. In an article in the cur- to enable these authorities to put in place rent council magazine, Council Review, Mr. Ray measures to ensure compliance of waters here Earle, a Dublin City Council manager of the with the water framework directive by 2015; and eastern river basin district project, said the if he will make a statement on the matter. Department believes local authorities have [28697/07] enough staff to deal with this issue. Mr. Earle said local authorities do not have enough resources 54. Deputy Paul Kehoe asked the Minister for and there is an embargo on recruitment. He said the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- staff levels are inadequate in all local authorities. ment his views on whether the Environmental This is a serious problem. The water supply has Protection Agency has adequate staffing and been polluted in places such as Galway. Some- resources to perform its function effectively; and thing was recently reported about that. The cryp- if he will make a statement on the matter. tosporidium bacterium has serious health con- [28430/07] sequences. This is a major area in which we must take action. In complying with the water frame- 73. Deputy Sea´n Sherlock asked the Minister work directive we have an opportunity to do for the Environment, Heritage and Local something about water quality. Ireland has a Government the action he will take to address major economic reliance on agriculture and tour- the need to allocate additional resources to the ism. If last year’s problems in Galway are Environmental Protection Agency with particular repeated it will cause problems for our tourism emphasis on the need for these resources for industry. The Minister must make a specific com- monitoring and enforcement activities by the mitment. I would like the Minister to say he will give local authorities more staff to do their work EPA in respect of IPPC and waste licensing; and in this area and that the EPA will have extra staff if he will make a statement on the matter. specifically related to this directive. [28702/07] Deputy John Gormley: I intend to provide Deputy John Gormley: I propose to take Ques- extra staff for frontline duties. One cannot arti- tions Nos. 42, 54 and 73 together. ficially divide capital investment from current The Environmental Protection Agency was spending. Once one invests in, say, a state-of-the- established in 1993 under the Environmental Pro- art sewage treatment plant, which we require to tection Agency Act 1992 and the range and com- comply with our EU commitments, one needs plexity of the functions it discharges have staff to run it. Ireland is ranked No. 1 in Europe increased significantly since then. The staffing, for implementation of the water framework financial and other organisational resources avail- directive and I made that a priority. It means that able to the agency have expanded commensurate by 2015 our water must be of good status. We with its increased responsibilities. The agency’s can achieve that and it is vital. I am co-operating \ budget for 2007 is just over 52 million and this closely with my counterpart in the North, Ms supports a staff of 295 following the sanction of Arlene Foster, because many of these river basin an additional 40 posts in 2005. A major extension districts span the Border and it requires that level to the agency’s headquarters in Wexford has also of co-operation. I agree with Deputy Tuffy that been approved. The staffing and other resources providing the EPA and local authorities with staff required by the EPA are kept under review by is a requirement. I must examine doing that in my Department, in consultation with the agency, the context of budgetary constraints. particularly in the light of any additional functions the agency may be required to discharge. Deputy P. J. Sheehan: Is the Minister aware of The necessary staffing to deal with water man- the serious situation in Bantry town river basin agement in river basin districts is drawn from the whereby all the sewage exits on to the tidal basin, relevant local authorities and a co-ordination commonly knows as the slob? Will Cork Country function is exercised by a designated co- Council be in a position to recruit additional per- ordinating local authority in each district. I am sonnel to ensure plans exist to remedy this and reviewing the overall employment position in the meet the deadline of 2009? Will the Minister local government sector, having regard to the invite—— need to deliver frontline services and achieve value for money within the parameters of An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That is beyond Government policy on public service employment the scope of the question. generally. As part of this review my Department is consulting the Department of Finance on the Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: It is beyond the scope current ceiling on local authority staff numbers, of Deputy Sheehan. which I have just mentioned, including impacts in increased servicing requirements and other obli- Deputy P. J. Sheehan: It pertains to the gations in the local government sector. environmental plans for 2009. 1103 Other 14 November 2007. Questions 1104

Deputy John Gormley: Deputy Sheehan knows because of the expertise needed externally? Will I have been a frequent visitor to west Cork and he issue a directive, a memorandum, or some Goleen, but it is a matter for the local authority. other indication to city and county managers on their position regarding the recruitment of staff Deputy P. J. Sheehan: The Minister should in this area? Their hands are currently tied on look at Goleen. staff recruitment, due to the embargo on the local government sector. Deputy John Gormley: I hope to visit again some time and I am sure Deputy Sheehan will Deputy John Gormley: My Department is cur- welcome me. It is a matter for the local authority rently in negotiations with the Department of in the first instance. I am happy to see what can Finance on this issue. I have highlighted the need be done. Under the water investment programme for extra staff in the critical areas of compliance over \4.5 billion has been committed and we and enforcement. These are my priorities for the must continue with that job because we require upcoming budget. There is a necessity for extra good quality water by 2015. staff in certain areas, such as the EPA, the national parks and wildlife section of my Depart- Deputy P. J. Sheehan: Did the Minister say he ment, as well as compliance and enforcement will lift the embargo on Cork County Council to areas of local authorities. Negotiations are enable it to get more staff to carry out that work? ongoing, but at this stage I cannot give a direct answer. Deputy John Gormley: I did not say I will lift any embargo, but there is a commitment to pro- Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: So the answer is no. viding frontline staff where required. We are working towards this for the EPA, my Depart- Deputy John Gormley: The answer is that ment, NPWS and some of the local authorities. negotiations are taking place and I am confident that we will get people, but I am not yet sure of Deputy P. J. Sheehan: If the Minister has not the exact numbers. I will be happy to get back to the will, he has not the way. the Deputy when I have the final figures.

Deputy Terence Flanagan: I, too, am con- Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: So there is no directive. cerned about the quality of our drinking water and rivers throughout the country. It was inexcus- Deputy James Bannon: Up to 30,000 tonnes of able that people in Galway had to boil their water waste are not accounted for each year in this for weeks. It took a councillor from our party to country. Can the Minister reassure the general drink a pint of water for the problem to be public that this waste does not escape into our resolved. It is inexcusable that many farmers and water supply system? What measures has he put factories get away with polluting water and we in place to counteract this possibility? need more policing. We need more frontline staff and it is important that the Minister employs An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That is extending more people immediately. To have to wait until the question a bit. 2015 for the water framework directive to be implemented and our water supply to be brought Deputy James Bannon: Is he aware of the into line with the rest of Europe is unacceptable. situation in south County Longford, where the Can the Minister reassure people that the water water supply could be contaminated by inad- they drink is of adequate quality? equate sewerage treatment plants in several villages there? Deputy John Gormley: Given the extent of the problems, 2015 is not far away. Our record on the Deputy John Gormley: I do not want to get implementation of the water framework directive into specific local authority areas. Members quite is second to none. I have established a contin- rightly have local concerns, but on a national gency fund under the water services investment level we are working towards achieving good programme so that local authorities can draw quality water throughout the country by 2015. It down funding if they have a problem with crypto- was mentioned that such a date is a long way sporidium or any other aspect of water quality. I away, but I would be happy if we could get full agree with the Deputy and I have said before that compliance by that date. The water services it is unacceptable in a modern, European country investment programme that I outlined shows that that people have to boil water. I am committed to significant investment is being made. It will con- ensuring we have proper quality drinking water. tinue for the foreseeable future. Through that investment, we will get better quality drinking Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: I would like some clari- water and better quality water for fisheries and fication from the Minister. He said there is an bathing. We hope to achieve a better environ- embargo in place but that he wants to have staff mental standard overall. recruited for this area. Can the Minister explain to the Chamber if the staff will be recruited by Deputy Paul Kehoe: I have no doubt the Mini- means of redeployment, or will they be appointed ster is aware of the great work being done at the 1105 Other 14 November 2007. Questions 1106

EPA headquarters in Johnstown Castle, County ution. These and other provisions of the 2004 Act Wexford. Many people are employed there are based on recommendations of an indepen- thanks to decentralisation, and it is a welcome dent commission on the private rented residential addition to County Wexford and its economy. sector. The commission carefully considered and The EPA is under severe space restrictions there. rejected all forms of rent control, which it found Can the Minister confirm when construction of to have generally been counter productive. the new extension will begin? I have no doubt he The Central Statistics Office rent index indi- is well aware of the space required, or that the cates that rents in the private rental sector have EPA has regularly been in contact with his increased by 12% in the 12 months to October Department about the issue. 2007. However, the longer-term trend is relatively moderate with an annual average increase over An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: This is a very the five years from October 2002 to October 2007 important question. of 2.4% per annum. Deputy John Gormley: Yes it is. I recently vis- It is a function of the PRTB to review the oper- ited the place and Ms Mary Kelly, director of the ation of the relevant legislation, particularly the EPA, pointed out to me the section that needed provisions relating to rent, and to make recom- an extension and the importance of it. I cannot mendations regarding any amendments con- give the Deputy a specific start date for the exten- sidered necessary. There are no proposals cur- sion. I told Ms Kelly that I recognised the import- rently to amend the provisions relating to rent ance of the EPA and the need to extend the levels. building, which I also emphasised to the Minister for Finance. Unfortunately, I cannot give the Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh: Threshold has Deputy a specific timeframe at this stage. stated that the poor were affected most by rent increases, particularly those dependent on social Deputy Paul Kehoe: Is anything holding up the welfare payments. Those people will be squeezed process for the extension? out of the private rental market, but there is now a smaller social housing stock, so this will create Deputy John Gormley: No. Several players are overcrowding and homelessness. Will the Mini- involved, including the Department of Finance, ster of State ask the PRTB to look again at the my Department and the EPA. I hope we get system of rent caps? There is an upward trend improvements in capital spending which would for rent, while the price of housing has dropped enable the EPA to continue its work, as well as substantially, sometimes by up to 30%. in current spending which would enable us to get What steps can be taken to ensure that those more front-line staff. Both of these are equally who are availing of rent allowances do not have important. Once we get more staff in, we will to top up in the black economy by paying cash to require more space. Sometimes when facilities landlords? These people are under pressure are provided, people are required to fill them. I hope we can make progress because the EPA is because there is no other accommodation avail- pivotal in guaranteeing better environmental able to them. What steps will the Minister of standards. State take to ensure that tenants are aware of their full rights for rent reviews under the 2004 Private Rented Accommodation. Act? 43. Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh asked the Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Rent is generally set on Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the open market. It has regard to the rents Local Government if his attention has been charged in equivalent properties in its area. If drawn to the fact that under the Residential Ten- people feel that the rent is excessive, then they ancies Act 2004, landlords are only permitted to have the right to refer the matter to the board, raise rents once a year; if his attention has further which has the right to order a reduction in that been drawn to the fact that rents rose by an aver- rent. However, only 1% of all cases referred to age 10% in 2006 with some people experiencing the PRTB in 2006 dealt with rent, which is an 20% increases; and the plans he has to rectify this interesting figure. If a cap was put on rents situation by introducing a new system of rent between 2002 and 2005, many of those in rented caps. [28621/07] accommodation would not have benefitted from Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The Residential Ten- the serious reductions that took place. In other ancies Act 2004 provides that rents in the private jurisdictions where caps were put in place, the rented sector cannot be set higher than the open experience has been that it has not worked in the market rate and that rent reviews cannot nor- interest of the person renting. mally occur more frequently than once a year. The Government is anxious that enough hous- Any tenant who considers that the rent sought ing units are available. Up to 700,000 new housing exceeds the market rate or who has a complaint units have been built in ten years which means about a rent review can refer the issue to the there is adequate availability of rented accom- Private Residential Tenancies Board for resol- modation. 1107 Adjournment 14 November 2007. Debate Matters 1108

Deputy Ciarań Lynch: The basis of the ques- Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: There is a system tion is the issue of standards in the renting already in place that anyone renting private market. While landlords can increase rents, there accommodation must be registered. If they are is no measure to increase property standards not registered, they are breaking the law. because of the absence of a licensing system. Local authorities operating the rental accom- Deputy Ciarań Lynch: On a point of order, that modation scheme have informed me that when is a registration system, not a licensing one. They tenants move from rent allowance to the rental are two different matters. accommodation schemes, the properties available to them are not up to scratch. There is a standard Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Accommodation that is in the rental market for rent allowance recipients. not up to scratch should be reported to the As Deputy O´ Snodaigh stated, the State is sub- Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB, sidising substandard properties and is party to which will ensure registration and that the prop- these rent increases. erty in question meets the required standards. If Does the Minister of State intend introducing those are not met, penalties can be imposed by a licensing system that will guarantee core the board. requirements of whatever rent is set? Is he aware that with the roll-out of the rental accom- Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh: That is if they modation scheme, properties being let out answer the telephone in the PRTB. through the HSE do not have the same standards as those properties available to rent allowance Deputy Ciarań Lynch: At the risk of being out recipients? of order——

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: The important issue An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I would not want raised by the Deputy is that of standards. The to encourage that. Department is anxious that the standard of accommodation is raised to improve the lifestyle Deputy Ciarań Lynch: ——and with respect to of those renting. Recently, I increased the the Minister of State, he is either being evasive amount of funding to local authorities to examine or he does not understand his brief. The point is rental properties and ensure they are up to that one system is registration and the other is scratch. There has been a significant increase in licensing. When the PRTB was established, it local authority inspections in 2006 with 9,835 deliberately avoided the licensing system. A inspections reported, an increase of 44% from licensing system manager may not be a role for 2005. I have allocated moneys on the basis of tar- the board but does the Minister of State intend get inspections from local authorities. Local auth- to introduce such a system? If I leave a dog at orities putting an emphasis on inspecting private boarding kennel over the weekend, it must be rented accommodation, ensuring it is up to stan- licensed for standards. However, it is not the dard, will be rewarded with more funding. There same for rented accommodation. The State is was a 50% increase in the amount of funding ploughing millions of euro through the rental given this year. accommodation scheme and rent allowance but The system of rent supports is a matter for the there is no set standard because of the absence of Department of Social and Family Affairs. An a licensing system. agreement was reached—— Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: Obviously, the Deputy Deputy Ciarań Lynch: With respect to the has not listened to the answer. It specifically Minister of State, when will he introduce a licens- states that it is a function of the PRTB to review ing system? Will he answer the question? the operation of the relevant legislation, particularly provisions relating to rent and to make Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: ——and an increase recommendations and amendments that are that will take from mid-2007 to June 2008. necessary. Deputy Ciarań Lynch: The Minister of State Deputy Ciarań Lynch: Will the Minister of should stop being a public relations man and give State put the script down for a second and answer an answer. the question? Written answers follow Adjournment Debate. Deputy Batt O’Keeffe: This will be an adequate amount of money as deemed in this arrangement. Adjournment Debate Matters. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I wish to advise Deputy Ciarań Lynch: I got no answer to my the House of the following matters in respect of question. I will keep my supplementary concise. which notice has been given under Standing Does the Minister of State intend to introduce a Order 21 and the name of the Member in each licensing system with regard to standards in the case: (1) Deputy Joe McHugh — if the Minister private rented sector? will outline the Government’s commitment to 1109 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1110 decentralisation throughout rural Ireland; the The matters raised by Deputies O´ Caolaín, Minister’s commitment to retaining existing State Breen, McEllistrim and McManus have been jobs in peripheral locations and his commitment selected for discussion. to providing additional jobs in these locations; (2) Deputy Olivia Mitchell — the imminent demise Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 2007: of the Feis Ceoil in the absence of a sponsor and Second Stage (Resumed). the need for Government support to secure its future; (3) Deputy James Bannon — the need to Question again proposed: “That the Bill be outline what if any, plans are in place, for a cohes- now read a Second Time.” ive policy to expedite the development of slurry Deputy Terence Flanagan: There are enor- generated electricity; (4) Deputy Deirdre Clune mous anomalies with the national vehicle driver — the need to ensure the regeneration of the file, NVDF. It is a database of national strategic Cork docklands area is facilitated through tax importance as it contains details of the 2.4 million incentives; (5) Deputy Leo Varadkar — noting registered vehicles and 2.5 million licensed driv- the local electoral boundaries have not been ers in the State. It is critical to the management of reviewed since 1998 and noting the massive the national motor tax and driver licence services, development that has occurred in many suburban including the optimisation of services for the areas and county towns in the interregnum, calls motoring public. on the Minister for the Environment, Heritage Recent disturbing reports in the media have and Local Government to appoint a boundary highlighted the impact of uninsured drivers on commission to redraw the local electoral bound- road deaths and safety. The Irish Times recently aries in advance of the 2009 local elections; (6) ´ reported 1,351 vehicles recorded as written off on Deputy CaoimhghıńOCaolaín — the need to the NVDF, were back on the road. Has the provide additional beds, isolation units and single Department of Transport led investigation into rooms to combat the continuing spread of infec- this matter been concluded? If so, what recom- tions in hospitals; (7) Deputy Tom McEllistrim — mendations were made? that funding be provided to the Kerry network of Will the Government introduce a new non- people with disabilities to employ a project coor- national driver file to maintain a record of pen- dinator; (8) Deputy Ulick Burke — to indicate alty points for those producing foreign driving the reasons for the delay in publishing the con- licences following motoring offences? I am conditions and guidelines for the implementation of cerned about the type of accountability that will the mid-Shannon tax incentive scheme arise in the building of non-national roads. Will announced in the 2006 budget; (9) Deputy Liz the Minister clarify who will be accountable if McManus — the need to ensure a full-time fire problems emerge in their construction? brigade in Bray, County Wicklow; (10) Deputy With the amount of funding being transferred Simon Coveney — to outline progress in the to the Department, I am disappointed the Mini- approval for long promised and much needed ster did not address local government funding. refurbishment works at St. Angela’s school, St. Many reports have been published on local auth- Patrick’s Hill, Cork; (11) Deputy Pat Breen — orities but there has been no reform. City and that the Government’s commitments in the State council councillors believe they do not have much Airports Bill 2004 will be delivered; (12) Deputy responsibility as it all lies with county and city Mary O’Rourke — if the Minister will outline managers. The National Roads Authority will not fully all the arrangements being put in place for be as sympathetic as the Department of the women from counties Longford and Westmeath Environment, Heritage and Local Government to who previously had been treated in Mullingar and the pleadings of local government. It is worrying who are now being told to present themselves to that the NRA is not accountable to this House the Mater Hospital in Dublin; (13) Deputy Tom and does not reply to parliamentary questions Hayes — whether the tax rebate system for diesel about funding for various projects. Does the costs for scheduled bus services will be revoked Minister plan to reform the way in which it as per a planned EU directive and if so, how long engages with Deputies and councillors? has the Government known about this directive; Although significant progress is being made on and if so, if an alternative system of funding will our national roads in my constituency of Dublin be set in place and what form it will take; and if North-East there are some bad roads with severe the Minister can make a statement on forth- potholes such as the stretch of the Howth Road coming plans for this; and (14) Deputy O’Dowd from Sutton Cross to Howth. I have reservations — with reference to the letter from the Taoiseach about the transfer of responsibilities to the to the Deputy, dated 8 November, to ask the Department of Transport but I hope I may be Taoiseach to state to whom his Department first proven wrong. disseminated the summary of radio and television news and newspaper headlines on the Shannon- Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: The purpose of Belfast-Heathrow controversy and the date of this Bill is to provide for the transfer of functions same and to ask the Taoiseach to make a state- relating to non-national roads and the national ment on the matter. vehicle and driver file from the Department of 1111 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1112

[Deputy Pa´draic McCormack.] The community involvement and local the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- improvement schemes are underfunded. This is ment to the Department of Transport. I am con- the case in my county and my Oireachtas col- cerned about the implications of this transfer. leagues speak about it. If the Department of Will the Department of Transport be able to deal Transport is going to look after everybody, as we with its new responsibilities? Will it fund non- are told, it should give more funding to these national roads in the same manner as the Depart- schemes. ment of the Environment, Heritage and Local The Government has often promised safety Government did? Some years ago the Govern- outside schools, an issue I have raised on many ment gave responsibility for national primary and occasions. If the Departments of Transport and secondary routes to the NRA but it is difficult of the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- to get a response from the NRA, which has no ment are serious about road safety they should responsibility to local or national representatives. be serious about it outside schools. Thousands of I oppose this further erosion of the powers of kids come out of primary school daily. When local government. Will we have any say in where these responsibilities are transferred the Depart- this money will be spent? Local authorities will ment of Transport should urgently carry out a hand over responsibility for all roads to the safety audit outside primary schools around the Department of Transport but what will happen in country, working with the local authorities. the Gaeltacht and CLA´ R areas where the Mini- I do not want to hear the excuse that the local ster seems to have personal choice in the allo- authorities fall under the Department of the cation of money for minor roads? There is no Environment, Heritage and Local Government. provision in Transport 21 for the maintenance or The Department must work closely with local upgrading of national roads. Where will the authorities. There is no point referring us to the money come from? NRA. When I put down questions to the Depart- Up to 25% of drivers who incurred penalty ments of the Environment, Heritage and Local points did not receive them because they did not Government, or Transport about the Enniscorthy hold Irish driving licences. Many of them hold or Gorey bypasses or the New Ross river crossing British or European registration plates and can I am told the NRA has sole responsibility for give two fingers to gardaı´. them. It is unacceptable that a Deputy cannot get some kind of reply from a Department which is I recently read a report in a national newspaper spending taxpayers’ money when a taxpayer about 1,351 written-off vehicles on the NVDF wants me to get that information. I urge the Mini- which were already back on the road. Has the ster of State to ensure that roads for which people Department of Transport concluded its investi- pay tax are kept in good order and that money is gation of this matter and will the findings be forthcoming for county councils. made public? It is estimated that 100,000 vehicles on the road are not insured. Do drivers of foreign Deputy Michael Ring: This is a serious step. registered cars without insurance get away scot The Green man has gone yellow by letting power free? Taking powers from the local authorities move from the Department of the Environment, and transferring them to a Department which is Heritage and Local Government to the Depart- hardly able to run itself is a step in the wrong ment of Transport. The environment and roads direction. were always connected with local authorities and this is a step in the wrong direction. Deputy Paul Kehoe: I welcome the oppor- The train service in the west is the worst in the tunity to speak on this important Bill which is country. I have been listening to Iarnro´ dE´ ireann robbing Peter to pay Paul. The Department of promise new trains for the past 20 years. The Transport is not able to handle what is on its desk trains are dangerously overcrowded every week- without having further responsibilities. People end. This is a health and safety issue and it is time who pay car tax expect their roads or lanes to something was done about it. Thirty years ago be in good condition at all times. I read in the when there was nothing in the country there was newspapers at the weekend that the Minister for a dining car on the train from Westport to the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- Dublin, now we cannot even have a trolley where ment will raise revenue by increasing road tax. people can get a cup of tea on a three and a half hour journey. What has gone wrong? We are Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Bicycles. going backwards and that is why we are taking these responsibilities from the Department of the Deputy Paul Kehoe: Where will that money Environment, Heritage and Local Government go? Will it stay in the Department of the Envir- and moving them in to the Department of Trans- onment, Heritage and Local Government or will port. Last week I asked the Minister for Trans- it go to the Department of Transport? Maybe the port how many people had provisional licences Minister of State at the Department of the Envir- for one, two or three years and he told me he onment, Heritage and Local Government, had no responsibility for this. When we put down Deputy Killeen, will include a reply to that ques- questions about roads the Minister takes no tion when he concludes the debate. responsibility for anything. If he did he would not 1113 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1114 be Minister for Transport but in any other juris- of the key factors affecting the reform of local diction would be out the door. I cannot under- government autonomy is funding and, post rates, stand why Ministers will not take responsibility. the major source of finance has been the local They talk about reform in the House but it is time government fund; revenue that is supposed to we had real reform and that Ministers were come from drivers’ licences and motor tax to be accountable. repatriated to local authorities. We have waited 20 years for the N5 from West- In the intervening years, while the Minister port to Castlebar and the Minister of State was took charge in other Departments, decentralis- there last weekend and had a joyous time. He saw ation was announced, certain services, including the traffic problems we experience the health service, were re-centralised and the 4 o’clock between Castlebar and Westport. After ten years of planning and fund- NRA was established. The latter has shifted more ing we were told by the National Roads Auth- money and responsibility from the Department of ority last week that a dual carriageway from the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- Westport to Bohola is possible, but I will be ment and represents a two-step procedure to drawing two old age pensions by the time such move all non-national roads into the remit of the projects reach Westport. We wanted the Minister National Roads Authority and from the remit of last week to announce funding for the N25 and local authorities. It is very unclear where funding N26 because it is needed. We are aware of the for local government will come from. Will the problems that exist and if the Government wants Department of the Environment, Heritage and to build a dual carriageway that is fine but we Local Government provide it from the local want the funding in place first. government fund or will we establish a new fund When we contact the Department of the Envir- from the Department of Transport? onment, Heritage and Local Government we will The Department of Transport is already be told the matter is the responsibility of the responsible for the national development plan Department of Transport. When we contact the and seems to be behind time and over budget on Department of Transport we will be told it is not every project. If this is to be the new framework the responsibility of the Minister for Transport, it is hard to be confident. The NRA chief execu- Deputy Noel Dempsey, because he is no longer tive has already acknowledged he will seek responsible for anything in this country. another \500 million from the Government, Some discussions are needed in this House and bringing his budget to \2.1 billion, to spend on one relates to the responsibilities of Ministers. roads projects in the national development plan. The Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Will the projects in the national development Mary Harney, is not really Minister as that posi- plan that seem to take precedence over all else tion is filled by Professor Brendan Drumm. The be topped up from local government, non- Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, will not take responsibility. County managers in national road funding as established? local authorities hold power but will not answer The port tunnel went over budget and com- letters, though it is specified in legislation that pletion of the N11 in Wicklow was delayed. they should. What will the Minister of State at People can say the delay was caused by many the Department of the Environment, Heritage factors but one reason was that money for it was and Local Government, Deputy Tony Killeen, do transferred. There are still ten miles of very about this? When we were forced off local auth- dangerous roads. They are unfinished and no orities the legislation stated that we would receive commitment has been made to address the issue responses from local authority managers and until after 2010. Primary regional roads were officials within a reasonable timeframe. I now funded as a priority in the context of the Depart- must contact the Ombudsman when I require a ment of the Environment, Heritage and Local response and it is time for a debate on local auth- Government’s overview of non-national roads. If orities in this House. this responsibility no longer lies with the Depart- ment of the Environment, Heritage and Local Deputy Andrew Doyle: Why must I follow Government, it seems all responsibility for the that contribution? roads fund has left that Department and therefore local government representatives and Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: It will not pose a officials will have no say in these matters. The difficulty for the Deputy. key to this issue is funding. If local authorities do not have funding they will not be autonomous An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Good luck. and will not be able to spend money on their roads. Deputy Andrew Doyle: The Minister for We are in the dark on this matter. This is alleg- Transport was Minister for the Environment and edly a technical transfer that is at the behest of Local Government in 1999 when I was first the Department of Transport, but it seems there elected to local government. I heard great pro- is more devil in the detail than is evident at the nouncements about local government reforms and, to his credit, some took place. However, one moment. 1115 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1116

Acting Chairman (Deputy Seamus Kirk): Iam in the standard the rural community deserves. I sorry to inform the Deputy that his time has believe that the proper home for those services is expired. the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Deputy Andrew Doyle: I am having difficulty My greatest concern, however, is a different familiarising myself with faces given the change one. In my time in the Department of the Envir- in chairman that has just occurred. onment I established a programme called Better Local Government — in the local government Acting Chairman: Time passes quickly. system it is sometimes referred to as the purple book. Many people subsequently sought to inter- Deputy Andrew Doyle: From where will local view me on the detail of that book. At the core authorities receive funding? Will there be one, of all the reforms was the proper funding of local two or three streams of funding? government. I sought to have a ring-fenced system of funding established, but it was resisted Acting Chairman: I call on Deputy Brendan by the Department of Finance, which abhors ring- Howlin and inform him that I will be calling on fenced funding because it sees itself as the collec- the Minister of State to speak at 4.15 p.m. tor general and dispenser general of the State’s fund. The notion that the Oireachtas would have Deputy Brendan Howlin: I will not need that the temerity to ring-fence any particular source much time because I am multi-tasking today and of funding for a specific purpose is something that will only make some brief points. grates on its nerves. I know how difficult it was I am anxious to make a contribution to this to establish this ring-fenced funding. legislation that was presented by the Minister yes- My concern about this proposal, logical as it terday as technical legislation, a minor matter so may seem and confident as I am that the Minister logical that it hardly requires debate. The for the Environment, Heritage and Local Taoiseach had the same view on the Order of Government is well intentioned in it, is that it will Business this morning and considered the subject strike at that ring-fenced funding for local so technical that it should be a matter of minis- government. We will soon see that the local terial diktat, rather than require the scrutiny of government fund, which is funded significantly this House. from the proceeds of motor tax, is being re-chan- I will focus on an aspect of this, touched on nelled through the Department of Transport. by Deputy Doyle, that causes me concern and on This weakens the argument that it is a local which I seek reassurance. On the face of it, bring- government fund. The bulk of local government ing all road systems under one Ministry seems a funding is from motor tax but a chunk of that will logical thing to do but there are some difficulties now go from the local government fund to the with this, one of which was well rehearsed by my Department of Transport. As a vehicle for colleagues on the Fine Gael benches and by delivering a funding mechanism to local govern- Deputy Ciara´n Lynch yesterday. Local auth- ment, the basis on which the local government orities have a wealth of experience relating to the fund was founded in the late 1990s is thus development of county roads and the difficulty undermined. was always the lack of money to bring about such I alert the Minister of State to this serious con- development. Local improvement schemes are a fantastic agent for dealing with roads that serve cern. I seek his assurances that the basis of fund- communities and families in isolated areas. The ing to local government will not be eroded, that Department of the Environment, Heritage and this is not the thin end of the wedge that will Local Government’s intimate knowledge of this eventually lead to a significant shift away from area and its integration with the local government this ring-fenced fund for local authorities. I am system makes it the obvious Department to deeply concerned that it may be so. deliver this type of small scheme. We have all seen what has happened in regard In my experience the Department of Transport to the administration of marine policy where it thinks on a grand scale in terms of metro and was seen as logical that all marine related activi- Luas systems, and motorways and smaller pro- ties should come under the remit of one Depart- jects tend not to be on its list of priorities. The ment. That has not worked, however, and we now Department of Transport does not think in terms have a situation where part of fisheries is in the of boreens and small local improvement schemes Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, nor access to individual households on the myriad inland fisheries are assigned to another Depart- of roads that exist in my county. The Minister of ment and ports and port development to a third State at the Department of the Environment, Department. It is a ludicrous way to go. Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Tony I seek the Minister of State’s assurance that this Killeen, comes from a rural county like mine, but provision will not undermine the local govern- if he visited parts of south County Wexford he ment fund. I am also concerned that this legis- could well get lost. One would not wish to be lost lation will undermine the delivery at local level of on some of those roads because, despite the best strategically important but low-key programmes efforts of Wexford County Council, they are not such as the local improvement scheme. 1117 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1118

Deputy P. J. Sheehan: I thank Deputy Howlin Concerns were also raised about the future role for sharing time. This is an important Bill that of local authorities and whether they would have will affect every road in my constituency of Cork less power under the new arrangements. The South-West. The wrong Minister is driving the position is clear. The Bill proposes no change in Bill through the House this last two days. Along the powers and functions of local authorities in with all my constituents, I want to know how this regard to the improvement and maintenance of legislation will improve 1 km of road in Cork non-national roads. Local authority powers are South-West. We do not even have 1 mile of not affected. national primary road but must make do with national secondary and non-national roads. We Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: How will they have the largest road network of any county. My deal with transport? county occupies one eighth of the territory of the State but we in Cork South-West have not had Deputy Tony Killeen: Several Deputies raised our rightful share of the cake for the past 30 or 40 issues about the level of funding for non-national years. Our rail service was decimated, the tracks roads. This year the fund is providing \520 mil- pulled up and the bridges knocked down and sold lion for this area. For 2008 and subsequent years, to a Third World country where I understand the it will provide the same level of funding plus an rail service has been running handsomely for the element of the annual increase in buoyancy in past 50 years. motor tax receipts. I was not a Member of the house at that part- Deputy Howlin and others highlighted the icular time but those who came before me were importance of various road schemes and the promised that the status of our road system in relationship between the Department of the west Cork would be upgraded to national primary Environment, Heritage and Local Government status. Some 50% to 60% of the regional roads and the local authorities. For example, issues have not seen a litre of tar or a shovel of chips in were raised about the local improvement scheme. the past 30 to 40 years for lack of funding. How There has been a substantial increase in funding in heaven can the Minister now wash his hands in this area in recent years. of this? He is like Pontius Pilate, washing his hands of responsibility and handing it over to the Deputy Brendan Howlin: That is because the Minister for Transport, a man who had no appe- Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government knows what these schemes tite to come in here to accept this legacy from the are. I am not sure the Department of Transport Department of the Environment, Heritage and does. Local Government. It is a sad reflection on ministerial policy to transfer blame from one Depart- Deputy Tony Killeen: Since the local government to another. ment fund was introduced in 1999, annual allocations have increased from some \6 million to Minister of State at the Department of the \30 million in 2007. This represents a 400% Environment, Heritage and Local Government increase in funding in that time. (Deputy Tony Killeen): I thank Deputies for Questions were also asked about the manage- their contributions to the debate on this Bill. ment of the local government fund. Deputy Before I address some of the points raised, I Howlin also spoke about the need for improved emphasise that the Bill is technical in nature. It local government and the ring-fenced system of provides the legislative framework to facilitate funding. I assure Deputy Howlin and others that the transfer of non-national roads and the the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and national vehicle driver file functions from the Local Government will continue to have Department of the Environment, Heritage and responsibility for the management of the fund. I Local Government to the Department of Trans- also confirm that the full proceeds of motor tax port. The transfer of functions will be effected by and driver licence fees will continue to be paid a transfer order to be made by the Government. into the fund. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, Drafting of the necessary transfer of functions made it clear last night that the integrity of the order is well advanced and the order will be made fund will be assured into the future. to coincide with enactment of this Bill. The local government fund will continue to Several Deputies raised issues in regard to provide significant funding to local authorities responsibility for non-national roads at national through general purpose grants. General purpose level. I clarify that responsibility for non-national grant allocations from the fund to local auth- roads is not transferring to the National Roads orities for 2007 totalled \948 million. This rep- Authority but to the Minister for Transport. The resents an increase of 8% over the record amount transfer of functions in this instance has nothing provided in 2006 and is an increase of some 180% to do with the NRA. Deputy Ring and others over the 1997 allocation. who are concerned about accountability to the Several Deputies raised issues in regard to Da´il and the possibility of NRA involvement can vehicle write-offs, penalty points and uninsured rest assured that these functions are merely com- drivers. I heard Deputies Tuffy, Naughten, ing under the remit of the Minister for Transport. Crawford, Cyprian Brady and Kennedy speak 1119 Local Government (Roads Functions) 14 November 2007. Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed) 1120

[Deputy Tony Killeen.] Deputy Gormley, will make an announcement about this yesterday, as did Deputies Flanagan shortly on motor tax. and McCormack today. There has been some I thank Deputies for their co-operation in facil- media coverage relating to vehicles that were itating early consideration of the Bill. Having deemed total write-offs by motor insurers but been a Deputy who has welcomed the oppor- which subsequently returned for use on the roads, tunity to speak on Second Stage on numerous with the obvious implications for the safety and occasions, I appreciate that it afforded Deputies well-being of both vehicle owners and other the opportunity to raise issues of real concern to road users. their constituents. Deputy Howlin, a former The arrangements covering the treatment and Minister, raised issues he would consider notification of write-offs are currently being important as a result of his experience in a examined by the RSA, the Garda Sıóchańa, and number of Departments and his concerns relating the Revenue Commissioners, which are respon- to the strong relationship between the Depart- sible for the registration of vehicles, and my ment of the Environment, Heritage and Local Department in its current role in respect of the Government and local authorities across a range national vehicle driver file. This examination will of issues. be concluded as soon as possible and any recom- I understand and have some sympathy with the mendations arising from it will be considered. concern expressed by some that functions would The national vehicle and driver file plays a be transferred to the NRA. I will clear up that critical role in the administration of penalty misconception because that is not the position. points. For persons who receive penalty points The functions are merely transferring to the but do not have a driving licence, mainly non- Department of Transport, where I am confident nationals, the facility exists on the NVDF to they will be dealt with as sympathetically as was create a skeleton record so penalty points can be the case with the Department of the Envir- applied and the notices issued. There are cur- onment, Heritage and Local Government and rently 122,000 such records on the NVDF. local authorities. We all wish this will be the case. Imposing penalties for road traffic offences on With regard to the integrity of funding, foreign registered drivers raises many legal, Deputies on all sides can be assured that the intention and effect of this legislation will be to organisational and procedural issues, which make leave the functions between local authorities and it very difficult for any one State to enforce such the Department directly. I appreciate the points penalties. For that reason, the Department of made by Deputy Sheehan and others on other Transport, which has responsibility for driver modes of transport, with railways being a case in licensing, is pursuing this issue at European level, point. We have cause to be somewhat happier British-Irish level and North-South level, where than Deputy Sheehan along the west with the mutual recognition and cross-Border enforce- impending opening of the western rail corridor, ment possibilities are being considered. but it is interesting to consider the developments Several steps have been taken in recent years and the significant move away from rail transport to reduce the level of uninsured driving. The which occurred in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. It Garda traffic corps has been substantially is imperative we move very strongly back in that expanded to improve compliance with all road direction. traffic legislation, including motor insurance I listened to the Minister for Transport, Deputy requirements. Legislation has also been put in Noel Dempsey, speaking about the significant place to extend the powers of the Garda to per- incremental increase in the number of cars on the mit the seizure of uninsured vehicles. In addition, roads, of which many of us are aware. An since the introduction of the penalty points interesting offshoot of this is the extraordinary system, 6,539 persons had received penalty points increase in the number of road journeys made by for uninsured driving up to the end of September people to and from work. The average distance 2007. It is also planned under the recently pub- people travel to work has increased in the past lished road safety strategy to establish a system ten years from about 7 km to a little over 15 km. to ensure current insurance details for all drivers The amount of travel people undertake relating can be accessed in real time by the Garda to to work has naturally increased exponentially as facilitate enforcement. the number of people at work has increased from A number of Deputies referred to motor tax. 1.1 million to 2.1 million, virtually doubling. In the 2007 budget, plans were announced to People must get to and from work. introduce changes to the current vehicle regis- Returning to the point made by Deputy tration tax and motor tax systems to take greater Sheehan, there is clearly a major opportunity to account of environmental issues, in particular provide transport for people, particularly from carbon dioxide emissions. The programme for dormer towns to centres of population and Government reaffirms the commitment to intro- employment. That issue has been worked on with duce measures to further weight VRT and motor some success along the western corridor. Despite tax in favour of cars with lower emissions. Work the difficulties outlined by Deputy Sheehan and on the matter is ongoing and a range of possible his long-lamented contention that there is no options is being considered. The Minister, national primary road in his constituency, 1121 Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 14 November 2007. 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages 1122 responsibility for roads across all the areas within Minister of State at the Department of the the Department of Transport will facilitate better Environment, Heritage and Local Government consideration of areas that do not have national (Deputy Tony Killeen): The Minister outlined primary roads. last night in his speech the rationale for the The imperative arises somewhat more from Government decision to transfer these functions. issues relating to the road safety and the enor- As I stated at the end of my summary on Second mous difficulty successive Governments have Stage, the functions relating to road safety, in faced in trying to address the number of deaths particular, are a matter of very grave concern, as and level of serious injury that occurs on our are the matters of having roads dealt with in one roads. That is an element of the transfer and a Department. That was the initial rationale for matter with which all of us wish the Department the decision. well. We encourage all our constituents and I thank Deputy Ciarań Lynch for going to the others to play an active role in achieving such trouble of trawling through the Bill and address- progress. ing issues of this nature. From my previous People can rest assured the Bill only provides experience with Bills, I have often found techni- the legislative framework for the transfer of these cal amendments, when put before us and con- two functions from one Department to the other. sidered, sometimes present issues of considerable People will not be dealing as a result of this legis- importance in terms of interpretation of legislation with bodies which are somewhat less lation, should the need subsequently arise in the accessible. courts or in other circumstances. We asked officials to take up this list of amend- Question put and agreed to. ments with the Parliamentary Counsel. My initial reaction, grammatically, was that this was a case Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 2007: of substitution. The strong legal advice we have Committee and Remaining Stages. received from the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel is that the term “as substituted” is not SECTION 1. used in this context and the terms used in the Bill Acting Chairman: Amendments Nos. 1 to 3, are more appropriate to the situation. inclusive, and 6 are cognate and amendment No. 4 is related. The amendments will be discussed Deputy Ciarań Lynch: I may press the amend- together. ment. I take on board the Minister of State’s response but the legal advice I have received tells Deputy Ciarań Lynch: I move amendment me these amendments are accurate. I accept this No. 1: has been through a lengthy drafting process and would consider withdrawing the amendment this In page 3, line 25, to delete “inserted” and evening if it was agreed to look at the issue on substitute “as substituted”. the next Stage so it can be debated and exam- These amendments are to tidy up some contex- ined further. tual interpretation of what is happening, replac- ing the word “inserted” with “as substituted” as Acting Chairman: Is the Deputy withdrawing a substitution is taking place. I am keen to be the amendment? informed by the Minister of State what approach his Department is taking on these amendments. Deputy Ciarań Lynch: If the issue can be raised Will they be accepted or is there a resistance to again on a later Stage. doing so? If there is such resistance, what are its grounds? Acting Chairman: We will be moving on to My motivation in putting these amendments Report and Final Stages after Committee Stage. before the House is to assist the Bill. Recently we Is the Deputy withdrawing amendment No. 1? witnessed that the intention of a Bill and the roll- out of an idea can be two entirely different con- Deputy Ciarań Lynch: Amendments Nos. 1 to cepts. My intention is to assist the roll-out of this 4, inclusive, and 6 are all the same, with the words and ensure the legislation as drafted and read is “as substituted” inserted. If the Minister of State clear for comprehension and interpretation. has legal advice, I would be prepared to withdraw the amendments this evening. I would prefer to Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: At the end of his argue the more substantive point in amendment speech on Second Stage, the Minister of State No. 5. seemed to assure us there is nothing to worry about and the legislation only facilitates the Deputy Tony Killeen: Just to clarify, the inten- transfer of functions from one Department to tion is to deal with all Stages this evening and another. He has made clear his good intentions the provision that would frequently arise, where and assurances that there will be no other effect. I would undertake to look at the amendments If that is so, what is the purpose of the Bill? Was before Report Stage, does not arise this evening the Department of the Environment, Heritage because we are proceeding directly to Report and Local Government not doing the job right? Stage. 1123 Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 14 November 2007. 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages 1124

Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: This comes back to the removed by section 2 remains with the Minister position this morning, when the Taoiseach said for the Environment, Heritage and Local he wanted to fast-track this Bill. I would like to Government. If I was to accept this amendment have seen the legal advice the Minister of State it would, de facto, restate superfluously that the has but because of the processing of the Bill that remaining powers of the 1920 Act under section is not possible. There is a deadline for the Bill 12(1) are left with the Minister for the Envir- this evening. I will not hold up the business of onment, Heritage and Local Government. It is the House over one word but it is an unfortunate unnecessary and not advisable in legislation for a precedent, as was stated this morning, that simple variety of reasons, not least clarity. amendments like this cannot be looked at and I assure the Deputy that I have checked this given time. and I am sure the remaining functions under the 1920 Act that have not been removed by this Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. section and transferred to the Minister for Trans- port still reside with the Minister for the Envir- Amendment No. 2 not moved. onment, Heritage and Local Government.

Section 1 agreed to. Deputy Ciarań Lynch: If the Minister of State understands my intention he will agree this is an SECTION 2. omission and the amendment would clarify it. If it clarifies the matter and the Minister of State Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 not moved. takes on board the need for clarification, we are in a catch 22 situation. If the amendment does Deputy Ciarań Lynch: I move amendment not create harm, why leave it out when difficulties No. 5: could arise if we do not include it? If the Minister In page 6, between lines 26 and 27, to insert of State can assure me that the intention of the the following subsection: amendment is covered in the Bill so we do not find ourselves back here in six to 12 months to “(4) Regulations made in whole or in part amend the legislation, I will take his word for it. under section 12 of the Roads Act 1920 which relate to matters other than those Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Now is the time referred to in subsection (3) and are in force to clarify exactly what functions will remain with immediately before or upon the coming into the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and operation of the Local Government (Roads Local Government. Many times in the past we Functions) Act 2007, continue in force and have had to amend legislation that has been may be amended or revoked in respect of rushed through because of deadlines imposed those matters by the Minister for the Envir- under EU regulations. What will the Minister’s onment, Heritage and Local Government.”. functions be for secondary roads and the register I would like a detailed explanation of this before of vehicles? I make a decision on it. My initial reading is that this was an omission from the Bill. The amend- Deputy Tony Killeen: To answer comprehen- ment clarifies the role and responsibilities of the sively I would need a copy of the 1920 Act, which Minister for the Environment, Heritage and I do not have to hand. I undertake, however, to Local Government and the intention of the Bill. provide the information for Deputy McCormack. Perhaps the Minister of State will explain this and I understand Deputy Lynch’s concern, that the give the legal advice he has received to the House impact of the change in section 3 might be to as to why this should not be in it. leave none of the 1920 powers with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Deputy Tony Killeen: Under section 12(1) of Government, but I have taken legal advice on the the Roads Act 1920, the Minister for the Envir- point and I have been assured that only the func- onment, Heritage and Local Government cur- tions specified for transfer to the Minister for rently has the power to make regulations about Transport will be transferred and all previous changes in vehicle ownership and the issue, functions held by the Minister for the Envir- inspection and surrender of vehicle registration onment, Heritage and Local Government are certificates. retained by him. The purpose of the amendment to section 2 is to provide a statutory basis for the Minister for Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Only a couple of Transport to make regulations in respect of the years have elapsed since the then Minister, who NVDF functions being transferred to him. If I is now the Minister for Transport, introduced a understand the Deputy’s concern, it is that the Bill before this House to abolish the dual man- remaining functions under section 12(1) currently date. He almost cried in the House, such was his reside with the Minister for the Environment, dedication to the task before him and his sincerity Heritage and Local Government. I am assured regarding how in future, all matters that had been the power to make regulations under the 1920 under the Minister’s control previously and for Act about all other elements that have not been which the Minister was accountable to the House, 1125 Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 14 November 2007. 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages 1126 would be answered and replied to in parliamen- Members rightly query the meaning of this tary questions in future. He was so devout in his development. Does it entail a diminution of the dedication to that particular concept that he entitlement of Members of the Houses of the almost made other Members cry too. However, Oireachtas to raise questions on any or all of as other speakers have noted, that is not what these issues? happens at present. I am worried about an emerging matter, Deputy Tony Killeen: I am grateful to Deputy namely, that the transfer of powers from one Durkan because his contribution has enabled me Department to another will eventually result in to find at least part of the answer to Deputy this House ending up as a kind of no man’s land. McCormack’s question, which might be helpful. Members will be talking to themselves, asking First however, I will respond to the point made questions of themselves and being informed the by Deputy Durkan. The point was also raised by Minister has no responsibility to the House and Deputies McCormack and Ring, as well as several that whatever matter is in hand is not part and others on Second Stage. parcel of those powers that were transferred to another Minister. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I heard them. I will repeat what I believe to be true as it relates to this issue. In recent days I received a Deputy Tony Killeen: It is important to bear in letter from the Ceann Comhairle, who is sincere mind that the effect of this legislation is to in his duty, telling me that an issue I raised was transfer functions from one Department to not appropriate and the Minister was not another and not to—— accountable to the House. However, he is Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Oblivion. accountable. A Minister is accountable to the House for any matter that he or she funds from Deputy Tony Killeen: ——one of the bodies of his or her Department’s budget to any subsidiary which Deputy Durkan is clearly a great admirer. body and in respect of the general policy applied I can assure him on that point. by that body thereafter. I have found a note on the 1920 Act. Under While the following example does not relate to section 12(1) of the Roads Act 1920, the Minister roads, it is highly pertinent. The Road Safety for the Environment, Heritage and Local Authority took responsibility to make a policy Government has power to make regulations statement in respect of the holders of provisional regarding changes to vehicle ownership and the driving licences. Obviously the Minister was issue, inspection and surrender of vehicle regis- embarrassed by the alacrity at which the policy tration certificates. In addition, the Minister for statement was taken and decided to pull the hand the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- brake and perform a hand brake turn on the ment will continue to have power to make regu- issue. lations pertaining to the issue of new motor tax discs in place of discs that have been lost or Acting Chairman: The Deputy should avoid destroyed and so on. The issue that was of major going off on tangents. concern to Deputy Ciarań Lynch centred on motor tax and the powers which, under section Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Acting Chair- 12(1) of the Roads Act 1920, resided with the man will find this to be a graphic example and if Minister for the Environment, Heritage and he allows me to finish he will be pleased with the Local Government. I am assured they will con- manner in which I intend to put it. tinue to be held by him. The Minister correctly made the decision as to how the system would operate in future. The Act- Deputy Ciarań Lynch: Unfortunately, the ing Chairman knows I am correct in this regard. explanation provided by the Minister of State in Having so done, Members are entitled to consider this regard is less than satisfactory. Assurances him to have correctly exercised his powers. differ from evidence and I wish to allow this However, what happened? I revert to the amend- amendment to stand. While I have withdrawn the ment. What will happen? There will be apologies others, this amendment should be put to the to the effect that the Minister is not accountable House. to the House. The Minister is accountable outside the House. He can speak at local or national Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: I am now even Fianna Faíl meetings or on RTE. He can speak more concerned since the Minister of State’s to the local or national newspapers. He can speak clarification of part of my question. It now to everyone. appears local authorities and their managers will be reduced to only having responsibility for issu- Acting Chairman: Deputy Durkan is wander- ing new tax discs to replace lost discs. What will ing from the amendment under discussion. be the destination for the money that will be raised from car tax in my county or any other? Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: However, this Will it be retained within the Department of the scenario is similar to the amendment in that it Environment, Heritage and Local Government? constitutes a transfer of powers to another body. Will it be ring-fenced for the provision of non- 1127 Local Government (Roads Functions) Bill 14 November 2007. 2007: Committee and Remaining Stages 1128

[Deputy Pa´draic McCormack.] Affairs. He can rest assured in respect of this national roads within counties? Will it go to the matter, which is of great concern to him. Department of Transport? Members have debated this legislation for a short time. It is Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: I am delighted, vague regarding what will happen. The key issue as will be the Minister. for Members concerns how funding will be provided for non-national roads under the remit of Deputy Tony Killeen: On the other point that local authorities in future. he raised on the local government fund or, to be more specific, on the motor tax and driver licence Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear. fees, they will, as heretofore, continue to go into the local government fund, which will be adminis- Deputy Pa´draic McCormack: Until now, the tered by the Minister for the Environment, Heri- local councillors, who have intimate knowledge tage and Local Government. of non-national roads within their counties, could direct where funds might be spent. As this func- Amendment put and declared lost. tion will be transferred to the Department of Section 2 agreed to. Transport, will it be removed entirely from duly elected members of local authorities? A difficulty SECTION 3. has arisen in the House that I foresaw when the dual mandate was abolished. At present, no Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: I move amendment Member is also a member of a local authority No. 6: although many have great experience in this regard. However, it is possible that in a few years In page 6, line 27, to delete “inserted” and the House will be filled with individuals who have substitute “as substituted”. never been members of local authorities. There- I will be in a position to withdraw this amend- fore, Members must take responsibility in ment and amendment No. 7 in order to move the November 2007 for what will happen in future if Order of Business on. The Minister can see that they allow this Bill to pass in the manner pro- the intention of amendment No. 7 is to rename posed without possessing full knowledge of what the citation of the relevant Acts. It encompasses will happen or whether the Department of Trans- the broader aspects of the Bill. What is the port will be answerable for expenditure to Department’s interpretation of that amendment? members of local authorities in future. I will raise another issue that has not been Acting Chairman: The Deputy may be antici- clarified as this probably will be the Minister of pating a later debate. State’s last contribution. What will happen to the money that the Minister for Community, Rural Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy E´ amon O´ Cuı´v, is able to throw out everywhere in Connemara and Section 3 agreed to. other CLA´ R areas for the construction of roads? Will this power move to the Department of SECTION 4. Transport and will some other Ministers be making such announcements on Galway Bay FM Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: I move amendment every day, rather than the Minister for Com- No. 7: munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs? Alterna- In page 6, between lines 43 and 44, to insert tively, will he still have a budget to give money the following subsection: ”(2) The Roads Act indiscriminately to any road he likes within his 1920, the Roads Acts 1993 to 2001 and section constituency, provided it is located within a Gael- 2(3) may be cited together as the Roads Acts tacht or CLA´ R area? What is the status of the 1920 to 2007.”. fund in question? Will it be transferred to the I ask the Minister for an explanation of the point Department of the Environment, Heritage and I mentioned earlier. Local Government? I raise this issue because some concerned constituents have already asked Deputy Tony Killeen: I thank Deputy Lynch me questions about how I could allow such legis- for raising this issue. We have taken it up with lation to be passed without having such matters the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. The clarified. Roads Act 1920 and subsequent amendments to it — not all of which were contained in Roads Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear. Bills, as some of them were in Finance Bills, as Deputies Durkan, McCormack and others will be Deputy Tony Killeen: On the last question, I aware — were not cited together in the Roads assure Deputy McCormack that the legislation Act 2007 which, if it was to be done, would have before the House has no negative implications or been the appropriate place to do it. The place- consequences for his constituency colleague, the ment of a citation is not something we can do in Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht a Bill of a technical nature such as this, since it 1129 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements 1130 would normally be done in a substantive Bill. to amendments from the Opposition side but on That opportunity was not taken in the 2007 Bill. this occasion, for the reasons I outlined, we were able to manage without them. It is helpful when Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. people make constructive statements or contributions. Section 4 agreed to. Question put and agreed to. Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment and received Transport 21: Statements. for final consideration. Minister for Transport (Deputy Noel Dempsey): The second anniversary of the launch Question proposed: “That the Bill do now of Transport 21 has just passed and I welcome the pass.” opportunity to update the House on the progress made and to assure Deputies that the Govern- Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: I do not wish to go ment remains committed to delivering the prog- over the ground I went over before, but I reiter- ramme in full. Many major projects, particularly ate that it is with increasing concern that I note on the national road network, are being com- a gradual and inexorable drift towards a lack of pleted on time and on budget. Construction is accountability in the matter of legislation which under way on many important projects, partic- confers or transfers new powers to different auth- ularly on railways and major inter-urban motor- orities. Ministers wish to hear or see no more ways, while others are at the statutory approval about it after the day the Bill is passed in the stage, at design and planning stage or at public House. It makes life extremely difficult for consultation stage. members of the Opposition in terms of account- Transport 21 is a major undertaking. It is the ability. One of the strengths or weaknesses of any first time a Government here has agreed a ten- Government is the degree to which it can be held year financial framework for any sector of our accountable by the Opposition. While Ministers economy and is also the first time a capital invest- may feel this is to their disadvantage, it is actually ment commitment of more than \34 billion has to their advantage. The more accountable a been made. Transport 21 identifies and prioritises Government, Minister or Department is to the the projects that will be completed within the ten- Houses of the Oireachtas, the greater the chance year period to 2015. There will be more to do of the Minister being a successful and authoritat- after that period has expired, and in the prog- ive one. ramme for Government we have committed to The Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, will be glad to know I was congratulating him on preparing a follow-on investment programme for his handbrake turn a few minutes ago before he the period after 2015. arrived back in the House — in an oblique way, Deputies will be aware of the details of the needless to say. It did at least assure everybody Transport 21 programme. What I would like to that the Minister was in control and responsible do now is to update the House on some specifics for what was going on and that he and nobody of the progress so far and provide an outline of else was to decide on policy. In this he is correct. the further progress that can be expected in the However, I would also like to see the Minister coming years. The inter-urban motorway prog- being accountable when we ask a question in the ramme, with which most people are familiar, aims House about such a matter. This also applies to to upgrade the five major inter-urban motorways all other Ministers and Departments. Inevitably, by 2010, and is on target for completion on time everyone in this House has a period in Oppo- and within budget. The first route, the M1 motor- sition and it is only when in Opposition that way from Dublin to the Border, was completed people really begin to understand how important earlier this year with the opening of the Dundalk it is to ensure that true democracy applies at all to Newry scheme. Work continues on the other times and that every Department, Minister and four routes, the N6, the N7, the N8 and the N9. Minister of State is accountable to the House. I Of a total of 738 kilometres on this inter-urban hope I and my colleagues do not have to revisit network, 313 kilometres are now open to traffic this subject, but I will enjoy doing so every time and 308 kilometres are under construction. All of there is an opportunity. Even when opportunities the remaining projects have passed the statutory are limited I will still be prepared to raise it. approvals process. Since the start of Transport 21, a total of 21 Minister of State at the Department of the national road projects have been completed, and Environment, Heritage and Local Government a further four should be completed by the end of (Deputy Tony Killeen): On behalf of the Mini- this year. Among these are a number of signifi- ster, Deputy Gormley, and myself I thank the cant projects such as the Dublin Port tunnel, the Members opposite and on this side for their con- Naas Road widening, the Mitchelstown relief tributions, particularly Deputy Ciara´n Lynch for road, the Mullingar eastern bypass, the Arklow putting much thought into his amendments. In to Gorey bypass, the Cavan bypass and, most the normal course of events I am well disposed recently, the Charlestown and Castleblayney 1131 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements 1132

[Deputy Noel Dempsey.] submitted next year. The emerging preferred bypasses. Progress on road building is continuing route for metro west was selected by the RPA at a very impressive pace and the NRA has 21 earlier this year, following extensive public con- schemes under construction at present. The sultation. impact of these new and improved roads is evi- larnro´ dE´ ireann is also making excellent pro- dent and anybody who has travelled around the gress on its preparatory work for the rail inter- country in recent times will testify to the vast connector between Heuston Station and the improvement in journey times. Docklands and it commenced public consultation Although we are only two years into the Trans- on the alignment earlier this year. port 21 programme, significant improvements in The preferred alignment for the Luas line from public transport are also already apparent. Earl- Cherrywood to the Bray area has been selected ier this year, the first new railway station in and the remaining Luas extensions, phase 2 of the Dublin city centre for more than 100 years was Navan line and phases 2 and 3 of the western rail opened at Docklands.The new station facilitated corridor are at planning and design or public con- the enhancement of services on the western sub- sultation stages. The RPA expects to be in a posi- urban line and led, in particular, to a significant tion to submit a railway order application for the increase in commuter services to and from Clon- Citywest extension before the end of the year. silla. January of this year saw the introduction Bus E´ ireann and Dublin Bus will take delivery into service by larnro´ dE´ ireann of all 67 new of 435 new buses over the next two years. Intercity carriages which it had acquired for oper- Approximately 266 of these will be deployed as ation on the Dublin to Cork line. The new car- replacement buses and 169 will be additional riages have allowed the company to introduce buses, increasing the fleet size and capacity of hourly clockface timetabling services on the both agencies. Already, Dublin Bus has 50 route, and this has proved very popular, with cus- additional buses in service, while Bus E´ ireann tomer numbers on the route increasing by more has 13. than 14% on last year. larnro´ dE´ ireann is now on I want to address some of the rather disin- target to carry more than 3 million passengers on genuous recent claims in the media that the the Dublin-Cork route in 2007. Transport 21 programme is suffering from New rolling stock for the other intercity routes insuperable delays due to the rescheduling of cer- will gradually be introduced into service over the tain projects. The huge scale of the Transport 21 next two years, starting with the Dublin to Sligo programme is such that adjustments to the time- services. The original plan to buy 120 scale for individual projects is inevitable. The esti- 5 o’clock railcars was expanded to 183. Some mated completion dates for some Transport 21 42 have been delivered to date and projects have changed since the original indica- the remainder will be delivered by the end of next tive timetable was published in November 2005. year. The Portlaoise train care depot, which will The original timetable was designed to set chal- provide maintenance facilities for the new rail- lenging targets for the agencies and was drawn up cars, will be completed early in the new year. in the Department at a time when many of the Construction work has begun on a number of projects mentioned were only at the very early important rail projects, the Midleton rail line, the planning stage. first phase of the western rail corridor, the Inevitably, within a programme of this scale, it Kildare route project and the Luas extensions to will be necessary to amend estimated completion Cherrywood and the Docklands. The expansion dates as projects develop. Final completion dates of the trains on the Tallaght Luas line is well for projects will only be determined when the underway and will be completed by mid-2008, planning process and contract negotiations have increasing capacity by 40%. Eighteen new trams been concluded. So far, it has been necessary to are on order and delivery will start by the end revise the indicative completion dates for some of 2008. of the projects because of circumstances arising Other major projects have not yet reached con- before construction, while other projects have struction stage but are progressing through plan- been delivered ahead of schedule. ning and approval stage. The projects completed ahead of schedule A railway order application has been made to include the N2 Ashbourne bypass, by four An Bord Pleana´la for the first phase of the Navan months; the N15 Bundoran to Ballyshannon line, from Clonsilla to Pace, and it is hoped that route, by three months; the N8 Mitchelstown the oral hearing will be held before the year end. relief road, by three months; the N21 Castleisland The Railway Procurement Agency has made to Abbeyfeale route, by three months; the N8 major progress on metro north. The preferred Rathcormac to Fermoy route, by eight months; alignment has been selected and issues raised in the N25/27 Kinsale Road interchange, by six public consultation have been addressed. The months; the N6 Tyrrellspass to Kilbeggan route, PPP procurement process is well underway and by six months; the N52 Mullingar to Belvedere the short-listed consortia will be invited to tender route, by one month; and the M1 Dundalk to for the project in 2008. Preliminary consultation Newry route, by three months. The Docklands has taken place with An Bord Pleana´la and a rail- railway station was also completed two years way order application for the project will also be ahead of the Transport 21 indicative timetable. 1133 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements 1134

The necessary revisions to the programme unavoidable reasons. The ten-year programme is timetable have arisen for a range of reasons on target to deliver the projects identified. I will including changes to the scope of the projects continue to ensure that every effort is made to arising from public consultation — I am sure complete projects in the shortest possible time- nobody in this House would want us to ignore the frame. The country needs this infrastructure views put forward and that has caused delays in quickly. some of the projects — planning issues which Transport 21 is not just about building new obviously cause delays, procurement issues and roads or public transport infrastructure. It is archaeological difficulties. However, I am confi- about improving the quality of life of our citizens dent that the implementing agencies can work and reducing commuter and travel times. Achiev- through these issues and that Transport 21 will be ing these aims will be the main benefits of Trans- delivered, in its entirety, within the ten years of port 21. I look forward to reporting to the House the programme. and the Committee on Transport on a regular Rescheduling the construction timetables of basis on the progress we achieve. certain projects has not impacted on the draw down of funds for the programme as a whole. As Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Ba mhaith liom mo Transport 21 provides a ten-year financial frame- am a roinnt idir me´ fhe´in agus mo chara, an work, we have the flexibility to advance funds Teachta Bannon. from projects which are delayed to those where there is the capacity to accelerate project deliv- An Ceann Comhairle: Is that agreed? Agreed. ery. This ensures the programme can deal with delays in some projects by accelerating others, Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: On the question of thereby ensuring the overall delivery of the credibility of Transport 21 and projects like the programme. metro, there is a need for accountability here in I am committed to ensuring that Transport 21 a way that is different to that proposed by the is delivered with absolute regard to value for Minister. I do not disagree with him on the issue money and industry best practice. My Depart- of protecting the interests of the State and of the ment has launched a rolling audit programme to public procurement process, but I would like to ensure best practice is followed and that all pro- see the Comptroller and Auditor General or jects are compliant with the Department of Fin- another person or body independent from the ance capital appraisal guidelines. political system audit these at a reasonable time Robust monitoring procedures are in place, so that it would not be merely a matter of taking assisted by specialist consultants. There is regular the Minister’s word — not that we would ever progress reporting to Government. Information disbelieve what he would say — and that all of is also available to the public on the dedicated this would be benchmarked. There were signifi- Transport 21 website, on individual agency web- cant overruns in previous road projects. I sites, in the Transport 21 annual progress report acknowledge the progress that has been made by and in regular newsletters. the National Roads Authority in changing the My predecessor, Deputy Cullen—— process and keeping an eye much more sharply on the expenditure, but this side of the House Deputy James Bannon: Do not speak of him would need independent benchmarking of this too often. issue. My colleague in the Seanad, Senator Donohoe, Deputy Noel Dempsey: ——and myself have is particularly concerned about the potential for consistently indicated that, in the interest of significant over-runs on the metro project. The achieving best value for money for the taxpayer, Minister has taken a particular position. I we will not release prematurely the costs of acknowledge the integrity of protecting the public Transport 21 projects. My position on this purse, but at the same time it is our job to make remains unchanged. However, it is my intention the Minister accountable and to have trans- to publish full information on the business case parency outside of the political system. Perhaps for major projects and the factors taken into this can be done through the Comptroller and account in making decisions on them in due Auditor General. I do not know who should do course. This will be done when there is no danger it but perhaps we can discuss the issue in a com- that it will have a negative impact on the State’s mittee meeting and follow best practice else- ability to get best value for money through the where. As a party in Opposition, we must ensure public procurement process. The basis for the that we have accountability and transparency as Government decision will be transparent but it early as possible in projects and we should be as will be handled in such a way as to avoid com- incisive as possible in regard to them. promising the State’s commercial interest and, by Another question I wish to raise is the vision extension, the interests of taxpayers who are pay- that is required for public transport, especially ing for this. under Transport 21. I have been travelling to this All in all, I am satisfied with the progress made House from Drogheda for almost 11 years. My to date in Transport 21, while acknowledging that travelling time is still the same if I travel by train there have been some delays for valid and although I accept the rolling stock is much better 1135 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements 1136

[Deputy Fergus O’Dowd.] Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: If it is not finished the and even though more people are standing, they Department misinformed the Minister on that are happier with the service which is running well issue. and is on time. I left the town of Drogheda at 6 a.m. and encountered significant volumes of Deputy Noel Dempsey: They thought it was traffic, which would not have been the case ten finished until I saw it. years ago. Previously, I could reach Leinster House in an hour and 15 minutes by car. Now I Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: So the Minister is would be lucky to get here in an hour and a half, changing it. That is fair enough. and the journey can take up to two hours if I This is a key issue. The Ceann Comhairle and leave home between 7 a.m. and 8 a.m. On that the Minister probably know more about this benchmark it appears Transport 21 is failing. matter than I do but, from my perspective, the I previously referred to park and ride facilities. Bill has been in preparation for many years and Deputy Kennedy and I agree that we need park it ought to be before the House where we will and ride facilities on the approaches to the city. give it due and proper consideration. It is neces- We need a faster delivery of such facilities on the sary to have the controlling interest of the Dublin northern approaches to the city that I use myself. transport authority with the regulatory powers to The Dublin Transport Authority Bill was address any issues that might arise in terms of promised years ago. My researcher informed me people fighting over their own patch. We need that Fine Gael proposed to set up a Dublin trans- direction, control and a vision and until we have port authority in the 1980s, but it was abolished that Bill, we will not have these things. We, on by Fianna Faíl. this side of the House, are very happy for the Bill to come before us as soon as possible. Perhaps Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: It was passed by when the Minister responds he can indicate what the Daíl. is happening in regard to the Bill. We need this authority to be in place and until it is here we will Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: The Labour Party not have a blueprint that can be acted upon to went back into power and abolished it. We need address transport issues, especially in Dublin. I to get a handle on Dublin transport. The Bill is hand over to Deputy Bannon. sitting on the Minister’s desk since it was finalised in April of this year. The Minister should shake Deputy James Bannon: I welcome the Mini- his head again so it can be seen on the cameras. ster. I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak on this important matter. Nearly every Deputy Noel Dempsey: I am just—— transport project due to be competed before 2010 under the Government’s \34 billion Transport 21 Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Minister will plan is already delayed or late, depending on get dizzy. which spin is put on it by the Minister. It is emphatically predicted to miss its due date. We Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: The reason I want the have evidence of that on several projects. The Minister to shake his head again—— Minister referred to projects in counties Louth and Westmeath. It would not take a genius to Deputy James Bannon: It is because of all the know the latter project would be finished well U-turns. ahead of the planned time. Anyone who knows Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: And handbrake the short stretch of road in close proximity to Bel- turns. vedere would realise that. So much for the Government’s mantra of “on An Ceann Comhairle: It would be a lot worse time and on budget”. That was the tone back at if we heard him shaking his head. the launch of Transport 21 which was accompanied by great fanfare. It is my bet the Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: I agree with you. The Taoiseach and the Minister wish to forget the reason I wanted—— catchphrase that must now be haunting them. With a puffed out chest and full of pride, the Deputy Noel Dempsey: How come the Deputy former Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, did not see me nodding my head in agreement described Transport 21 as “my brain child”. It is with him on the earlier point? more of a no-brainer if you ask me. The Minister does not need me to tell him the Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: We got a copy of the transport system is inadequate. That must have briefing the Minister received stating that the filtered through, even to him. We have seen a sig- legislative work on the Bill was completed in nificant number of U-turns on the part of the April of this year. By the way, that was the day Minister. He is spinning like a roth mo´ r at this he got into office when he was not told about stage. The national spatial strategy and the Aer Lingus. development of the regional gateways to slow the growth of Dublin have failed miserably. The Deputy Noel Dempsey: The Bill is not finished. Minister would be aware of that if he had his ear 1137 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements 1138 to the ground on this issue. Despite the national project is not included in Transport 21. The Mini- spatial strategy, apart from the Atlantic road cor- ster might comment on the developments that ridor and a few regional projects, all routes still have taken place since then. With all the huffing lead to Dublin. and puffing from the Fianna Faíl Deputies from In the previous national development plan the the region, I would like to know the truth about State was divided into two regions to ensure the that piece of infrastructure. maximisation of EU Structural Funds. Commit- The Midland Railway Action Group has done ments were given that the BMW region would incredible work on the reopening of the line but benefit disproportionately but this certainly did the lack of any real and meaningful Government not happen. Once again, projects in the Dublin support has hindered its efforts. The future and east region exceeded its budget. The BMW development of the midlands is very much depen- region has lost out. Spending on roads in the dent on the provision of a commercial airport in BMW region is down by \500 million on prom- the midlands. Abbeyshrule, which is in close ised funding with an overall investment shortfall proximity to where I live and has a small leisure of approximately \4 billion. airport since the early 1950s, with business ven- What has happened regarding the proposed tures attached, is an ideal site for this develop- upgrade of the N63 and the N55? They join ment. Transport 21 overlooked that valuable numerous other roads that are examples of where infrastructural asset and despite local community the Government has failed to provide a 20th cen- activity, nothing has materialised. I ask the Mini- tury infrastructure for the midlands. The N4 ster to consider the development of that airport motorway from Dublin to Sligo will provide an to commercial status because it would be essential motorway link to the midlands and the important for the opening up of the midlands and west and help to promote economic growth which for industry generally in the midlands. I wrote to is badly needed in this area. Some sections of the the Minister’s Department on several occasions route have been upgraded to motorway or dual regarding that important piece of infrastructure carriageway standards but the fact remains there for the midlands but to date I have received nega- is no timescale for the completion of the project. tive responses. The Minister might again consider Question marks remain over safety given the it because we are the only country in Europe number of bottlenecks that arise on this route. without an airport in its midland region. I would not like to think access to Sligo would Transport 21 may not be the Minister’s brain- be left in the hands of Iarnro´ dE´ ireann, whose child but since taking responsibility for it he has reaction to the breakdown on the route at the done little to advance its overall development. weekend was a total failure of customer care, The slogan, “A lot done, more to do” must haunt impinging on health and safety and showing an the Minister. There is a lot more to do and I unbelievable incompetence and disregard for the would welcome an update from the Minister on well-being of passengers. Serious questions on what will be acted upon in Transport 21. this incident need to be answered by the Minister and Iarnro´ dE´ ireann. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: I am delighted The midlands was totally overlooked in the to have the opportunity to make some comments proposals on Transport 21, with the resultant on Transport 21 around the time of the second omission of essential works on what are some of anniversary of its launch. The Transport 21 prog- the most dangerous roads in Ireland. These ramme was launched with great fanfare by the dangerous roads include the N55 between Minister’s colleagues, the former Minister for Athlone and Cavan, the N63 between Longford Transport, Deputy Cullen, and several of his min- and Roscommon and an appallingly bad stretch isterial colleagues including the Taoiseach, between Edgeworthstown and Armagh, which Deputy Ahern, the Minister for Finance, Deputy poses a serious threat to the safety of the public. Cowen, and the then Tańaiste and Minister for This route was referred to as one of the worst Health and Children, Deputy Harney, on 1 roads in the Thirty-two Counties. November 2005. At that time the Labour Party One of the greatest omissions in Transport 21 spokesperson on transport, Deputy Shortall, wel- was the Mullingar to Athlone rail link, despite comed the establishment of the ten year transport assurances to the contrary from a former Minister plan, particularly a number of its key proposals for Transport from Longford-Westmeath, who including metro north and west, the western rail got front page headlines prior to the general elec- corridor and the upgrading of the national inter- tion for promising thin air. Nothing has been urban road network and the Dublin rail inter- done to advance the reopening of that valuable connector. infrastructural asset for the midlands linking two A key concern of the Labour Party at that time of the gateway towns, Mullingar and Athlone, by was the ability of this Government to deliver on rail. In reply to my parliamentary question on the the many promises contained in Transport 21. Minister’s plans for the reopening of the line, he That concern was strengthened by the fact that stated that the strategic rail review did not recom- most of the promises in the Government’s earlier mend the inclusion of the scheme in the list of platform for change remained undelivered two new rail schemes or projects. He went on to years ago. It is hugely disappointing now that just emphasise what I already know, namely, that the two years later, those fears are coming to pass 1139 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements 1140

[Deputy Thomas P. Broughan.] construction period and now has a 2011 com- and there are major question marks over the pletion date. ability of this Minister and his Department of We continue to move backwards with this Transport to realise Transport 21 on time and in Minister in regard to project after project. For budget. example, construction starts on the M3 and M25 Last week I submitted a parliamentary ques- Waterford city bypass have been seriously tion to the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, on the delayed. We are aware of the position on the M3. serious slippage now widely reported on many Phase 1 of the M50 was to be completed this year Transport 21 projects. The reply I received con- but now will not be finished until late next year tained a litany of excuses from the Minister about at the earliest. It is an astonishing list of missed delays which pointed to the poor management of deadlines and delays to the original timeframe of Transport 21 by him, his Department and the Transport 21. Serious questions arise about the former Minister, Deputy Cullen. The majority of ability of the Minister and his Department to projects due for completion between 2006 and deliver the programme within the timeframe. The 2009 have been either seriously delayed or will programme rightly has a huge budget of \34 miss the original date of completion. According billion of public money given that our national to this Minister, the scheduled completion date transport infrastructure, including public trans- for metro north, for example, has now moved port, and the national rail structure has been back to 2013 to “take account of scope changes greatly in need of significant investment for made which arise from public consultation”. The many years. Tallaght to Citywest Luas extension “has been The Labour Party has long advocated a com- revised from 2008 to 2010 to accommodate a prehensive and rigorously planned long-term longer alignment than originally planned”. The programme of upgrading and maintenance of Connolly to Docklands Luas has also a revised Ireland’s national transport networks but with completion date of 2009 rather than 2008 because such serious investment in Transport 21, the of concerns of businesses in the International Fin- public must have full confidence that the prog- ancial Services Centre about the impact of con- ramme will be carried out in an effective and struction. efficient manner. Unfortunately, in the past two Even more disturbing is that the initiative to years we do not have evidence of that from this link the red and green Dublin Luas lines has been Minister in his Department. stalled, with no deadline for the completion of In the light of that litany of failure, in United that important project. I note the Minister did not Kingdom terms, with respect to one or two mention that in his contribution. According to the departments there, we might ask if this Minister Minister, Dublin Bus expressed serious concerns and his Department of Transport are fit for pur- about the impact the preferred Luas alignment pose. Can the Department carry out a fundamen- would have on its operations. The Minister went tal remit given to it by this Oireachtas? In the on to say that Dublin City Council is currently previous Da´il responsibility for the marine was undertaking traffic modelling work as part of its unnecessarily broken up and scattered through- examinations regarding the Luas city centre link out the Government, so to speak. Responsibility and the further extension to Liffey junction, line for ports and marine transport was added to an D. We have had a litany of excuses as to the already large new Department of Transport, with reason we have not moved on that important key a critical national mandate. Last night and today, development in Dublin city transport. The Mini- further sections of the Department of the Envir- ster’s response both to my parliamentary ques- onment, Heritage and Local Government have tion and here this evening is astonishingly vague. been removed from that Department into the The construction timetable for the Cork com- growing empire that is the Department of Trans- muter rail service to Midleton has been pushed port with responsibility for the marine. Since this back to 2009 at the earliest instead of 2008. As Minister has taken the reigns of that Department, the Minister said, the construction timetable has following the disastrous privatisation of Aer yet to be finalised. In County Laois, the Port- Lingus by his predecessor, Deputy Martin Cullen, laoise train depot will not now be completed until we have had the Shannon and the learner drivers 2008 instead of 2007 because of planning issues, debacles. We are now entitled to ask whether that according to the Minister. He also reports that Department is capable of delivering this huge delays due to tendering issues on the Limerick programme of vital national importance. southern ring road project have pushed its com- The Minister should provide a full explanation pletion date back to 2010. tonight of the overall management of Transport To refer to his own area, the Minister said that 21 by him and his Department since taking up the the completion date for part 1of the Navan rail role of Minister. Most people would understand link has been revised back to 2010 due to what that one or two projects might encounter unfore- he said is a later than planned submission of the seen difficulties in their implementation and the railway order application. How did that delay planning and consultation issues that arise but not occur? Furthermore, the Dublin city centre rail the number of projects I have outlined. For resignalling project, which was expanded to example, will the Minister tell the House whether include the Maynooth line, is resulting in a longer it is the case that the rail cars that I understand 1141 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements 1142 were bought from Japan and Korea for the new Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: The Tallaght Sligo rail line had to be shipped back for line was delivered to Connolly Station in the face additional safety repairs? The Minister may know of ferocious resistance from vested interests. about it. Perhaps he will enlighten the House. The Labour Party has long been on the record as advocating a DTA placed on a statutory basis Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Punctures. with the power to direct and implement policy across transport agencies and that is demo- Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: Recently, I sug- cratically accountable to the citizens of Dublin gested that the Joint Committee on Transport be and its environs, but what of the other regions? given a strong invigilation role in respect of the For example, should the Ceann Comhairle’s new road safety strategy. The same process region in the south west not have a transportation should apply to Transport 21. I will welcome the authority? Is there a role for a national transport Minister’s comments in that regard. authority to oversee the development of Trans- A key Government failure that has contributed port 21? to slippages and blockages in Transport 21, especially regarding the greater Dublin area, has The policy has been an abject failure. My con- been the ongoing fiasco surrounding the estab- stituency includes the largest urban development lishment of the Dublin transport authority. At the in the history of the State, but it has been waiting outset, the organisation was mooted as being for a new DART station at Clongriffin for more Transport 21’s key driver in many issues such as than four years. The unbelievable saga of the integrated ticketing and the green and red Luas building of a simple DART station typifies prob- link-up, but the plethora of transport bodies lems in transport. involved made implementing and co-ordinating A disturbing new trend involves the disposal of policy proposals difficult sometimes. valuable public lands owned by some transport In November 2006, the Government appointed agencies. Deputy Higgins has led the campaign the DTA team, which published a wide-ranging to oppose the sale of approximately 14.5 acres at report on the DTA’s recommended structures Ceannt Station in Galway for residential and and establishment progress. The team was led by commercial development. How can we promote the eminent head of the department of civil, an integrated and sustainable public transport structural and environmental engineering at Trin- system when we sell lands that could be used for ity College, Professor Margaret O’Mahony. We significant transport developments, particularly in believed that the Dublin and mid-east regions the growing city of Galway? were to have an effective driver of transportation change at last, but we are no clearer two years on Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear. about the composition of the DTA, when it will be operational and what its role will be. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: When Transport From speaking with different stakeholders 21 was established, it had clear deficiencies since becoming my party’s spokesperson, it is beyond the failure to establish the DTA. It was clear that no one in the transport sector is any wiser as to the Government’s plans for the organ- disappointing that inadequate provision was isation’s establishment. Since the group’s report, made for new buses and quality bus corridors. Of the Government seems to have changed its mind. particular regret to Deputies from the north side That a Minister announced the establishment of of Dublin was that plans to develop public trans- a major new agency, but floundered around for port facilities such as metro north for hard- years until the Government changed its mind and pressed commuters would take seven years to go rolled back is extraordinary. In the process, the on stream. While I made strong submissions on previous Minister, Deputy Cullen, lost the behalf of constituents, the metro will not pass group’s head. through my constituency. This is deeply regret- The Minister must explain to the House his table, as Coolock would have been the best route. plans for the development of the DTA. When will Nonetheless, my case was not accepted and the he introduce legislation, what will the DTA’s role metro will pass through an area to the west. be and what will happen to the Dublin Transpor- tation Office and the Railway Procurement Deputy James Bannon: There may be a crony Agency? There was considerable unease in the there. RPA when the DTA idea was pushed forward. Under the chairmanship of Mr. Padraic White, Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: I welcome the the agency delivered the two Luas lines on time. fact that the project will go to tender. I ask my It got the Government — I was about to say “you Fine Gael colleagues to declare where they stand guys on the Government benches” — through the on the metro north issue because there is some 2002 election by putting a rail car outside Da´il confusion regarding their party’s role. E´ ireann. The Ceann Comhairle may remember that as he was probably photographed there. Deputy Michael Kennedy: I am glad the Deputy said it. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Suspended in time. 1143 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements 1144

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: It seems a Fine Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh: Go raibh maith Gael Senator believes the project should not agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom paírt proceed. de mo chuid ama a roinnt leis an Teachta Gregory. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Deputy Kennedy should be careful. Fianna Faíl tried wooing An Ceann Comhairle: Ta´ se´ sin ceart go leor. previously. Deputy Aengus O´ Snodaigh: Bhı´ nuacht diu´ l- Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: We should build tach ag an Rialtas arı´s an tseachtain seo caite mai- metro north post haste. Swords is a major city of dir le Transport 21, an phlean mo´ r a d’fho´ graigh 100,000 people and it has one of the planet’s bus- an iar-Aire Iompair dha´ bhliain o´ shin. Leírıódh iest hub airports. While eminent journalists such don domhain ce´ chomh fada siar ata´ fora´lacha as Mr. McDonald of The Irish Times are running mo´ ra an Rialtas imithe. Nı´ bheidh sceím ar bith a campaign against the metro, there is a case to as Transport 21, nach mo´ r, crıóchnaithe taobh be made for it because it would provide vital istigh den am a shonraı´tear. Ta´ an Rialtas tar eís regeneration in and a transport corridor for the praiseach iomlań a dheánamh den phlean, os rud city’s north side. e´ go bhfuil se´ tite chomh fada siar. Ta´ athruithe For many years, people in the west of Dublin sonracha deánta ar mo´ rańdenada´taı´ crıóchnai- have asked for a DART line to Blanchardstown. the a leagadh amach dos na tionscadail mo´ ra. Why was the line not electrified and why must we B’fheídir go raibh an Rialtas beagaínıń ro- wait until 2009? Many citizens in Cork are disap- thapaidh chun an chaoi ina n-eíreo´ dh leo Trans- pointed that Transport 21 contains nothing for port 21 a chomhlıónadh a mholadh. Is do´ igh liom them. The Green Party, members of which are gur ar bhonn polaitıóchta agus toghchańaıóchta a not present, advocated a fixed line public trans- chuir an Rialtas an phlean seo faoi bhraíd an pho- portation system for Cork city. bail agus a ndu´ irt Airı´ go mbeidı´s in ann an phlean a thabhairt chun crıóch. In ainneoin an Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: They are hugging meíd a du´ irt an Rialtas ag an am, ta´ formho´ ran trees. phlean dı´rithe ar an ngluaisteań in ionad co´ rais iompair phoiblı´. Muna ndı´reoimid ar iompair Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: When will the phoiblı´, cuirfimid leis an plo´ du´ traćhta agus loiti- Cork Luas project be brought forward? meíreacht timpeallachta ata ag tarlu´ le tamall Many innovative ideas have been tabled. fada ar fud na tı´re. Nı´ cheart du´ inn bo´ ithre a tho´ - Transport 21 includes Irish Rail’s proposal for an gaíl do gluaisteaín prıóbhaídeacha amhaín. Le interconnector to link Heuston and Connolly deánaı´,taímid ag tabhairt cead do comhlachtaı´ stations, but the timeframe is 2015. The Minister prıóbhaídeacha bo´ ithre a tho´ gaíl ionas gur feídir told the media that he would bring the date for- leo dolaı´,no´ tolls, a bhaint uathu siu´ d ata´ ag u´ saíd ward by five years, but the project is falling one na bealaı´ u´ d. year, two years or three years behind like other In ainneoin an fa´smo´ r eacnamaıóchta a parts of the policy. In his response, will he explain chonaiceamar le roinnt blianta anuas, nı´lan to the House how he will fund the intercon- Rialtas tar eís airgead oibrithe na tı´re seo a chai- nector? I support the project, a good develop- theamh i gceart. Bhı´ Fianna Faíl i gceannas ar na ment that will become the backbone of the trı´ Rialtais is deánaı´.Bacho´ ir go mbeadh co´ ras Dublin public transportation system, as stated by iompair phoiblı´ againn a bheimid bro´ du´ il as. Ba the former Minister, Deputy Cullen, at Transport cheart du´ inn aíseanna taistil tapaidh, glan agus 21’s launch. eífeachtach a bheith againn. Nı´ cho´ ir go mbeadh se´ ro´ -dhaor — ba cheart don chuid is mo´ den An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy’s time has phobal bheith in ann ıóc as turasanna bunu´ sacha. expired. Da´ mbeadh a leitheíd de sheirbhı´s againn, bheadh i bhfad nios mo´ daoine sa´sta an cho´ ras Deputy Thomas P. Broughan: In the budget on phoiblı´ au´ saíd agus bheadh saol nıós fearr ag a 5 December, can we expect significant capital bhformho´ r. In ionad e´ sin, a´fach, ta´ praiseach funding for the interconnector’s development? againn. Ta´ an co´ ras ag titim as a cheíle faoin bru´ We will look for it. leanu´ nach ata´ a´ chuir ar. Nı´l daoine in ann dul ag I am disappointed with the delivery of Trans- obair no´ paístı´ a tho´ gaint ar scoil ar an gco´ ras port 21. Are the Minister and the Department fit iompair poiblı´ de bharr an easpa pleana´la a tharla for the purpose and can they deliver? To date, thar na blianta. Ta´ tionchar ro´ -mho´ r ag gluais- the situation has been bleak. We are fed up with teaín i bpolasaithe an Rialtais. Ta´ an Rialtas ro´ - excuses, disappointments and delays. The Mini- dhıógraiseach chun bo´ ithre a tho´ gaíl. ster’s job is to deliver. In line with the three strike Glacann gach eínne leis nach bhfuil co´ rais tais- rule, we want to see the Minister starting to til saor. Nı´ folaír du´ inn airgead a chaitheamh deliver. orthu chun a bheith cinnte go mairfidh siad thar na blianta. Nı´ fiu´ airgead a infheistiu´ san earnaíl An Ceann Comhairle: Glaoim ar urlabhraı´ iompair muna mbeidh saol fada ag an infrastruch- Sinn Feín, an Teachta Aengus O´ Snodaigh. tu´ r. Ta´ i bhfad nios mo´ daoine gafa i plo´ du´ 1145 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1146 traćhta, no´ ag fanacht do busanna nach bhfuil ag Ba mhaith liom dı´riu´ isteach ar cu´ pla rud eile, teacht, in ainneoin an caiteachas ata´ deánta. Leí- ar no´ sco´ ras iarnro´ id na tı´re seo. Nı´limid ag baint rıónn se´ sin go bhfuil an Rialtas tar eís caiteachas tairbhe iomlań as an eangach u´ d. Ba cho´ ir du´ inn micheart a dheánamh le tamall de bhlianta anuas. nıós mo´ infheistıócht a dheánamh san eangach Caithfimid athru´ a dheánamh. Ta´ seans fo´ sagan sin, ionas go mbeidh nıós mo´ traenacha timpeall Rialtas beagaínıń difrıócht a dheánamh. Ma´sfeí- na tı´re. Teastaıónn uaim go mbeidh gach ceantar dir linn dı´riu´ isteach ar roinnt de na smaointe ata´ i in ann brath ar cho´ ras iarnro´ id ata´ eífeachtach Transport 21, ba cho´ ir duinn feáchaint go haírithe agus poiblı´, seachas bheith as brath ar trucailı´ ag orthu siu´ d a bhaineann le co´ rais iompair phoiblı´. dul timpeall na tı´re. Ta´ a fhios againn mar gheall B’fheídir gur feídir linn iad a thabhairt i gcrıćh go ar an dainseár a bhaineann le trucailı´ ag tiomaínt hiomlań, gan bheith ag braith ar prıóbhaídiu´ .Ba trı´ bailte beaga. cheart du´ inn deánamh cinnte de go bhfuil metro Mar focal scoir, labhro´ idh me´ faoi na seirbhı´sı´ ceart againn, ata´ saor agus ar u´ ineíreacht phoiblı´ taistil scoile. Ba cho´ ir go mbeadh i bhfad nios mo´ ar no´ s Paris no´ Zurich. Nı´lco´ ras prıóbhaídeach, busanna ann do phaístı´ ata´ ag freastal ar scoile- ar no´ s Luas no a leitheád, a´ lorg againn. Ba cho´ ir anna ionas gur feídir linn impı´ ar tuismitheoirı´ a go rithfeadh an Staít na co´ rais seo ar fad, faoi ghluaisteaín a fha´gaint sa bhaile agus an dainseár comhlacht ar no´ sCo´ ras Iompair E´ ireann. Ta´ se´ lena mbuaileann paístı´ agus iad ag dul ar scoil in am du´ inn bheith in ann an ticeád ceanainn gach la´ a laghdu´ . Ba cheart go mbeidı´s in ann dul ceánna a u´ saíd an la´ ar fad ar gach uile chuid ar bus chomh laíthreach is a fha´gann siad an scoil den cho´ ras taistil phoiblı´ — an Luas, an metro, gach la´ chun a bheith to´ gtha abhaile slańsa´b- an DART no´ na busanna. Is scannal mo´ re´ nach haílte. Ta´ alań obair le deánamh. Nı´ creidim go bhfuil co´ ras den sho´ rt sin againn, ar no´ snaco´ rais bhfuil an Rialtas in ann an obair seo a dheánamh inalań cathracha eile. i gceart sa chaoi ata´ riachtanach san am amach Aithnı´m gur dhein an Rialtas beagań infheistiu´ anseo. i mbusanna na cathrach seo, ach nı´l go leor deánta go fo´ ill. Thaínig an meíd a dhein siad i Visit of Uruguayan Delegation. bhfad ro´ -dheánach chun difrıócht a dheánamh ar na fadhbanna traćhta ata´ againn. Ma´ taímid chun An Ceann Comhairle: Ba mhaith liom anois impı´ ar dhaoine a ghluaisteaín a fha´gaint ina dhi- ceád mı´le faílte o´ chroı´ a chuir roimh troscaire- adh, caithfimid an loingeas bhus a dhu´ bailt thar acht o´ Poblacht na hUragua ata´ sa Daíl inniu. oıćhe. Ta´ se´ sin riachtanach chun deíleaíl leis an Before proceeding with business, I wish on my fa´smo´ r ata´ tagtha ar mBaile A´ tha Cliath. Mar a own behalf and on behalf of the Members of Dail du´ irt me´ nıós luaithe, ba cho´ ir go mbeadh Bus E´ ireann to offer a ceád mı´le faílte — a most sin- A´ tha Cliath freagrach as na mbusanna go leír. Ta´ cere welcome — to a delegation from the formho´ r na ndaoine i gCorcaigh, Luimneach agus Republic of Uruguay led by his Excellency, Mr. aíteanna eile ag brath ar Bus E´ ireann — da´ bhrı´ Enrique Pintado, Speaker of the House of Rep- sin, ba cho´ ir go mbeadh i bhfad nıós mo´ busanna resentatives. I hope the delegation will find this ag an gcomhlacht sin. Nı´ fiu´ lańaı´ bus a shola´thair visit enjoyable and successful and that it will be muna bhfuil go leor busanna ann chun u´ saíd a to our mutual benefit. bhaint astu. Ta´ me´ tar eís roinnt stuif a chloisint le tamall anuas maidir leis na busanna nua. Ta´ Transport 21: Statements (Resumed). seans ann go bhfuil na busanna nua a cheannaigh an Rialtas dainseárach. Ta´ su´ il agam go ndeán- Deputy Tony Gregory: Ba mhaith liom faidh an Aire cinnte de nach bhfuil na busanna buıóchas a ghabhaíl don Teachta O´ Snodaigh as ata´ a´ u´ saíd ag muintir Bhaile A´ tha Cliath nıós ucht roinnt no´ imeád a thabhairt dom. Thaínig me´ dainseáraı´ na´ aon busanna eile. Chuala me´ le isteach chun ceist a chur ar an Aire, ach ta´ se´ deánaı´ go bhfuil fadhbanna mo´ ra ag baint le imithe anois. Nı´l fhios agam an fiu´ an ceist a chur, coscaín na mbusanna u´ d. ach de reír cosu´ lachta beidh an Aire Staít sa´sta Ta´ praiseach iomlańdeánta againn ar an M50 an meíd ata´ le ra´ agam a chur in iu´ l don Aire. o´ thu´ s deireadh. Nı´ cho´ ir go mbeadh do´ la air. Bhı´ I wanted to take the opportunity to draw the an mo´ tarbhealach ro´ -cu´ ng nuair a tho´ gadh e´ i Minister of State’s attention to one aspect of dtosach. Taímid ag deíleaíl faoi la´thair le leathnu´ Transport 21, to which the Minister has more or na bo´ ithre, ach ta´ se´ ag to´ gaint an iomarca ama. less admitted he is not fully committed, in spite Ba cho´ ir go mbeadh deifir ar an gcomhlacht ata´ of older absolute commitments by the previous ag deánamh an leathnu´ .Nı´ feídir le pobal Bhaile Minister. I refer to the extension of the Luas to A´ tha Cliath — no´ pobal na tı´re, fiu´ ,ce´ go n-u´ saí- the north side of Dublin along what is known as deann daoine o´ gach paírt den tı´r an M50 nuair a the Broadstone line, from the city to the Liffey thagann siad go Baile A´ tha Cliath — fanacht Junction. There is an absolute commitment to mo´ rańnıós faide. Ceńfa´th nach feídir leis an extend the Luas by 2012 on that old line, which gcomhlacht u´ d a chuid oibre a dheánamh 24 uair had been derelict for 70 years. There was some sa la´? Is tionscnamh mo´ r millteanach e´ seo, a uncertainty about this under the then Minister for bhaineann le saol eacnamaıóchta na tı´re. Ta´ Transport, Deputy Cullen, who later made it prıómh-mo´ tarbhealach na tı´re faoi snaidhm de clear that he was committed to it and that it bharr an praiseach a dheánadh agus ata fo´ s ann. would happen. 1147 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1148

[Deputy Tony Gregory.] the charge be reduced to allow a greater use. It Unfortunately, in Da´il replies to me the current will stop congestion in other areas and will signifi-

Minister stated that a commitment to the strategy cantly reduce CO2. as set out in Transport 21 remains, unless inde- I had the pleasure two weeks ago of attending pendent consultants confirm that there are strong the SDLP conference in Armagh. It was great to strategic transport and operational arguments listen to people up there telling us that the M1 that require consideration of an alternative use. motorway was a fantastic road. When I drove Given the Railway Procurement Agency has north of the Border I was on a single carriageway. already started its work to achieve this section of Everybody should recognise these improvements. the Luas for the north side of Dublin, and given For those on the other side of the House who the fact that the Broadstone line is the only major are not good at maths, I will try to break down public transport access route for the billion euro the \34 billion into simple language. Grangegorman development of the new DIT campus, I think the Minister needs to be educated Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: We will teach the on what is required for the regeneration for the Deputy about maths very shortly. north side of Dublin city centre. Providing a Luas along that line into the Grangegorman redevelop- Deputy Michael Kennedy: They have certainly ment area is absolutely critical. Any talk about got their facts wrong on the metro-north project. other strategic interests is a nonsense. I am Breaking down \34 billion equates to \9.4 million incredulous that the Minister would waste public per day over ten years. I think the Deputy might money in employing consultants at enormous understand that. expense to look at the possibility of an alternative strategic use for the Broadstone line. Anyone Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: It is difficult to who knows anything about the regeneration and understand how it is being spent. the renewal of the north side of Dublin city centre knows that public transport is absolutely Deputy Michael Kennedy: There will be 175 critical. million extra public transportation users, includ- I listened carefully to the Minister’s statement ing 75 million extra suburban rail passengers. The today when he spoke about the different commit- metro system will take us from the city to the ments under Transport 21, but he did not men- airport in 17 minutes, rivalling our counterparts tion this one. He did not mention the controversy in London and Paris. There will be 80,000 more that is raging outside. The Railway Procurement bus passengers per day, with 169 extra buses com- Agency, which was charged with the project, was ing on stream in the next few years. not even informed that consultants had been employed to look at a possible alternative stra- Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: That is called pie tegic use. I hope that the issues raised will be in the sky. It has not been achieved yet. It is brought to the attention of the Minister and that futuristic. he replies to them. Deputy Michael Kennedy: It is not pie in the I wish to conclude by congratulating the resi- sky. It is reality. dents of Drumcondra, who achieved the impossible in getting the RPA to realign its route for Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: The Deputy is suf- metro-north away from the most residential part fering from post-election stress. of Drumcondra and into open space. It was a ter- rific achievement and the residents deserve Deputy Michael Kennedy: Let us wait and see recognition for it. over the next couple of years. The Luas and the metro will be used by 80 million passengers; some Deputy Michael Kennedy: Ta´ me´ la´nsa´sta lab- 30 million people are already using the Luas. It hairt ar an a´bhar seo. I welcome the opportunity proves the point that people use good public to speak on this report on Transport 21. Never transportation systems, and I have no doubt that before in the history of this State have we had the metro will be the same. Creating park and such an ambitious programme for transportation. ride facilities is an important component of Spending \34 billion over a ten year period is sig- Transport 21. We must endeavour to keep cars nificant and it will revolutionise transportation from congesting our cities. If park and ride facili- modes for every citizen in this country. Most ties were provided on the outskirts of the city, reasonable people acknowledge the significant people would use public transport. progress that we have made in road construction. Deputy Broughan spoke about delays in his When travelling around the country, it is a speech. He is the first person to jump up and pleasure to use bypasses instead of getting stuck down when the public is not consulted, yet it was in different towns and villages. In my own con- interesting to listen to Deputy Gregory thanking stituency, the M1 motorway, the N2 and the port the Minister and the RPA for listening to the tunnel, which I use coming into town from people around Drumcondra—— Swords everyday, are marvellous roads. I would personally love to see greater car usage of the Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Fair play to port tunnel and I will suggest to the Minister that Fagans. 1149 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1150

Deputy Michael Kennedy: ——and for claiming the metro project should not happen is realigning the metro. That is the reason for the ridiculous. metro being a couple of months behind schedule, if it is behind schedule at all. Those who are nega- Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: My heart goes out tive in their criticism should recognise that the to the Deputy. Government would be criticised if it did not listen to people via public consultations. At the end of Deputy Michael Kennedy: To describe it as dis- this ten-year period, everyone’s quality of life ingenuous would be an understatement. It is rid- throughout the country will have become signifi- iculous to suggest we should tell the price the cantly better. Minister expects to those companies tendering Initially, the metro north line was only planned for the project. As an insurance broker, it would to go to Dublin Airport. I am proud I lobbied for make my job and that of my staff easier if poten- it to be extended to Swords. The metro project tial clients told us the price we could be up will be a vital component to Fingal against. 6 o’clock County Council’s plans to increase the population of Swords to 100,000 An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy’s time has and make it a city. I congratulate the role played expired. by Fingal County Council management and councillors in bringing the metro project to Swords. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Sadly, the Deputy The benefits of the metro will be recognised, will not be able to continue ridiculing Fine Gael. particularly with 19 minute travel times between the city and the airport when a similar journey by Deputy Michael Kennedy: I suggest the Fine bus can take up to two hours. When the metro is Gael Deputies opposite inform their colleague up and running, it will take 41,000 cars off the that the people of Dublin city want a metro trans- road, a major benefit, and carry 34 million pass- port system. engers annually. Deputy Pat Carey: Hear, hear. Many criticised the Luas service for its lack of capacity, but it has responded to this. There have Deputy Deirdre Clune: Senator O’Donoghue been major improvements on most of Dublin Bus has rightly questioned the potential costs of the services. That is not to say we do not want more metro project as no one quite knows what it will improvements. Transport 21 will deliver 170 extra entail. The metro is necessary for north Dublin buses and north Dublin, which has the fastest as the rest of the country becomes dependent on growing local authority area in the country, if not Dublin Airport, which is another debate. in Europe, needs a significant portion of them. When the Luas, metro and DART extensions are Deputy Michael Kennedy: Will the Deputy in place, along with extra Dublin Bus services, we muzzle Senator Donohoe and others? will have a magnificent public transport system. The economic benefit of such a transport Deputy Deirdre Clune: I will pass on the system to the greater Dublin region, particularly Deputy’s comments. to north Dublin, will be significant. Many new This is the second anniversary of the jobs will be created and services will be estab- Taoiseach’s announcement to build a world-class lished in north Dublin, allowing people to com- transport system for the 21st century on time and mute to north Dublin rather than the city. I look in budget. There have been criticisms of many forward to the RPA making its railway order next projects of Transport 21, some of which are year and moving a step closer to getting the behind schedule. tendering process in motion. I welcomed the launch of Transport 21 as it I take issue with a Fine Gael Party Senator who placed an important and large emphasis on public has been critical of the metro project. He has transport, particularly if we are to reduce our decried the metro project in debates in the overdependency on the car. Between 1990 and Seanad and on national television, claiming it 2005, fossil fuel consumption in the transport sec- should not be constructed. tor grew by 150% while energy efficiency in the sector only improved by less than 1%. The trans-

Deputy Deirdre Clune: He has raised the ques- port sector was responsible for 33% of CO2 emis- tion of its costs. sions. When considering carbon taxes, it is an area that must be considered. It is essential we Deputy Michael Kennedy: It is ludicrous to invest in public transport to give people alterna- suggest the metro project should not happen. tive commuting and travelling arrangements, as exemplified by the success of the Luas service. Deputy Deirdre Clune: He is not objecting to The Luas service is efficient and relatively inex- it; it is the costs he is questioning. pensive in moving large volumes of people. It needs to be extended to other parts of Dublin. Deputy Michael Kennedy: No one in the north It is a welcome development that the Cork- Dublin region does not want a metro. It is badly Dublin rail route has a train service on the hour, needed. To have prominent Fine Gael Members every hour, while the Dublin-Cork route has a 1151 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1152

[Deputy Deirdre Clune.] omic success or environmental sustainability. I train every half hour. Many were sceptical when hope the Minister for Transport will carefully it was announced. Those involved in it and work- consider his predecessor’s plans before accepting ing in Irish Rail say that it has increased passen- them as gospel. The present Minister, Deputy ger numbers which shows that people will use a Dempsey, has made excellent comments about quality product that is clean, on time and well the need for sustainable policies. However, we run. That is how one attracts customers. Parts of need a change of course. the motorway between Cork and Dublin due to When Transport 21 was launched I was sur- be completed in 2010, have opened, such as the prised at its lack of detail compared with the Mitchelstown and Cashel bypasses, and have Dublin transportation initiative final report of 14 reduced the journey time from five hours to three years ago or many other fine transportation docu- and a half or four hours. ments. The so-called “slow modes” of transport, There are three options for travel between cycling and walking were not mentioned. As a Cork and Dublin, a flight with Ryanair or Aer land-use planner I noticed too that there was Arann, car or rail, all equally attractive but com- almost no reference to land-use planning which is peting. This competition will improve services crucial to transportation. and hopefully reduce costs for travellers. Trans- I am enthusiastic about the references in the port 21 includes a Cork area strategic plan, programme for Government to multi-criteria CASP, which brings together the city and county analysis on future projects and by the establish- councils to develop a plan for the improvement ment of a national transport regulator and the of public transport until 2020. The Department of discussion about joining up land use and trans- Transport has accepted the plan. The main invest- portation, particularly in the greater Dublin area. ment in the plan will be the Middleton-Cork- Greater Dublin is no longer confined to Kildare, Mallow rail route which has been delayed. This is Meath and Wicklow but includes Cavan, Laois, frustrating because the road network is con- Offaly, Carlow and Kilkenny where there is a sig- gested. I am disappointed that the project is not nificant suburban sprawl. Unless the people in advancing at the pace we had hoped for because these new homes have access to high quality development of housing stock and businesses in public transport we are creating a mess that will the area hinges on it. Meanwhile, people living take several generations to sort out. in the area must put up with intolerable traffic I have grave concerns about rail transport. We and congestion. are going backwards in respect of rail freight. Green routes form another part of the CASP, While most European countries increase their rail serving the city centre from between eight and networks to transport freight we are decreasing ten nodes. These will be dedicated bus routes but ours. There was almost a 50% reduction in the will also improve pedestrian and cycle access volume of freight carried by rail between 2005 around the city. The concept is good and the and 2006, according to the International Union of Department of Transport has delivered funding Railways, going from 1.8 million tonnes to but the bus capacity has not increased. People 970,000 tonnes. That is a crisis for the rail net- will be attracted to a service that, like the Luas, work and we must do something to alter that. The is on time and efficient. The bus capacity does not new Minister will consider these issues carefully exist on those routes, which is a serious defect. In but we must do a U-turn on rail freight. This many cases the bus service remains as it was five comes at a time when our carbon dioxide emis- years ago. People do not use the buses which sions from the transport sector are up by 160% defeats the purpose of the routes. from 1990 levels and road transport accounts for The Minister said that Transport 21 will involve 96% of these emissions, according to the EPA’s 425 new buses, of which 169 are replacements and report in 2005. I am sure the Minister is well 256 are additional. Cork will receive 32, also div- aware of developments with regard to the discon- ided between replacement and additional buses. nection of lines at Foynes and the North Wall rail This is not enough. If the ambitious plan of the jetty in Dublin and the proposed closure at North Minister and Taoiseach is to succeed the infra- Esk in Cork. I am concerned that if we keep strip- structure must be put in place. It is fine to ping this country of its rail freight infrastructure develop green and bus routes but the Minister we will soon be beyond the point of no return needs to put the buses on the route, even to the with no alternative to road haulage. extent of having over capacity to attract com- This is not necessarily the fault of the Minister muters. I urge the Minister to consider that or his predecessors but the most damning issue is because the routes are not as successful as they that Irish Rail did not make a submission to the should or could be. Department of Transport’s Statement of Strategy 2008 — 2010. What was Irish Rail doing that pre- Deputy Ciara´n Cuffe: I am not convinced that cluded it from making a submission suggesting Transport 21 is a plan for the sustainable rail had a role to play in the future of transport development of transport. The Green Party is in Ireland? Many people are aware that Ireland concerned that placing 80% of the capital invest- is the only country in Europe where railways are ment over the next several years in roads is not not used after 11.30 p.m., despite the hundreds of the right way to promote social cohesion, econ- millions of euro invested. Cork’s freight yard is 1153 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1154 slated for closure in January 2008 and Irish Rail’s use the capital earned to build decent new gar- regional managers seem to be turning away busi- ages north, south and west of Dublin — where ness as to court business would, apparently, incur people live, where drivers live and where people disfavour higher in the company. What is going want bus routes to start at 5 a.m., 6 a.m. and 7 on at Irish rail? Perhaps this approach can be a.m. It seems crazy that buses are parked on some traced to the negative sentiments expressed by of the most valuable land in Dublin much of the Irish Rail’s CEO, John Lynch, under the previous time when that land could be put to far better Minister for Transport. It is time to chart a use. We probably do need some residual capacity change in course and the first step is to make close to the centre of Dublin but leaving dozens proper use of the \4 million invested in a high of acres of land covered in buses close to the specification container fleet purchased in 2002. middle of the city is a mistake. I would retain the Grass is now growing under the wheels of those facility at Broadstone because, as Deputy Tony container wagons at the Limerick depot and Gregory mentioned, we need to reinstall the rail something must happen in this regard. The use of link that was there until the middle of the last demountable units means all key products can be century. carried in containers and container compatible We must provide more buses as Dublin Bus has units and I urge the Minister for Transport, been stuck in a rut with around 1,000 buses oper- Deputy Noel Dempsey, to examine in detail what able each year for the past decade. Some can be done in this regard. improvements have occurred in this regard and I I wish to spend a moment on the issue of inte- would give the extra buses to the company. If grated ticketing because with it in mind I pulled Dublin Bus delivers the right routes that is well out my old Dublin Transport Initiative, DTI, final and good; if it cannot deliver the right routes per- report from 1994. There seems to be a wide- haps we should allow the private sector its fair spread belief that the issue of integrated ticketing share of the market. This is a matter for another has been around for five or ten years but on page day. 139 of the DTI’s final report from 1994 there is There are some fine elements in the prog- mention of integrated fare structure and ticket- ramme for Government and in Transport 21 but ing. I would like to take the CEOs of Irish Rail, I want to put it on public record that we cannot Dublin Bus and the Railway Procurement meet our climate change targets while spending Agency, RPA, by the scruffs of their necks, kick- the vast bulk of capital funding for transport on ing and screaming, to London. I would give each new roads. A slight change of heart is required of them an Oyster card and a day to see how it and we must run climate change policies across works. I would then bring them back, give them every Department, particularly the Department six months to implement such a scheme in Dublin of Transport. I look forward to a change of heart and if they did not achieve this I would fire them. in transport policies. It is quite simply outrageous that integrated ticketing has been an issue for 13 years without such Deputy Olivia Mitchell: It is a little ironic that a system being put in place. If the jobs of these this debate, which was probably arranged to allow CEOs depended on delivering an integrated tick- the Government congratulate itself on transport eting system in Dublin they would have done so improvements that were promised under Trans- ten years ago. Their jobs do not depend on this port 21, is taking place against today’s back- so we must drag them, kicking and screaming, ground of no public transport on many of into the 21st century — or perhaps into the mid Dublin’s streets. to late 20th century, since which time cities It is almost eight years since the liberalisation around the world have taken integrated ticketing of Dublin’s bus market was promised and this is as a sine qua non of a decent public transport still the only solution if we are to have a con- system. sumer focused service in the city that gives value Regarding Dublin’s bus service, I was glad to for money. I do not know the rights and wrongs hear an Taoiseach express sympathy with the of the current dispute at Dublin Bus but I think commuters left walking in the rain this morning. it is unforgivable that the convenience of a couple Even Deputy Joan Burton admitted to having a of drivers should supersede the interests of pass- bad hair day due to the difficulties in finding a engers who in many cases do not have the well- bus this morning. The bus drivers simply want to paid, secure jobs held by the drivers. These pass- start their routes at the Harristown depot, rather engers must get to work on time in the place they than the middle of town, and this seems a reason- are needed by their customers, not in a place of able request. I am sure the drivers also have their choosing. This situation is unforgivable and unreasonable requests in this matter but I find it will continue until the monopoly is broken by reasonable that one should start one’s route in competition. This applies to monopolies in every the suburbs where commuters are and where sector, not just the bus market. many of the bus drivers live. Other elements are As part of Transport 21 we were promised a also required, however, such as a regulator for Dublin transportation authority and that part of Dublin Bus and that is part of the solution. its function would be the liberalisation of the If I had my way I would sell off the bus depots market. This promise was watered down by the in Ringsend, Summerhill and Donnybrook and then Minister for Transport, Deputy Martin 1155 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1156

[Deputy Olivia Mitchell.] the Government has a blank cheque to spend \34 Cullen, until the kind of competition he promised billion. Given the way the plan is structured, it is was not worthy of the name. I hope the current impossible for us or anybody else to benchmark Minister will right this wrong done in advance of spending. The Minister can spend as much as he a general election in the interest, I suppose, of likes without any public monitoring or formal ensuring peace with the unions. There is no scrutiny. It is a joke. As I said before, the excuse excuse for this and the issue will go on and on that costing information cannot be imparted for until competition is introduced to all areas of commercial reasons is unacceptable. The com- public service. petitive tendering system is devised precisely to Transport 21 was welcomed by all as a ten year, produce the best price for the job. It has never multiannual funding programme. However, the before been used to prevent the publication of welcome was overshadowed by a complete lack a budget. of transparency on costings, how timetables were In the case of the proposed metro, we do not devised, where priorities were accorded and how even have a ballpark figure to the nearest \1 decisions were made on what should be included. billion. That is ludicrous. We do not know if any- These reservations were not merely Opposition body can say whether this project represents whinging or sour grapes but reflected real con- value for money. We do not know at what price cerns relating to the apparent total absence of any it becomes untenable or unsustainable or whether robust, independent analysis of the relative anybody has even decided at what level that benefits of the various projects and how priority should be set. Is it good value at \2.5 billion, \4 was accorded to them. billion, \6 billion or \8 billion? Will we ever The planning alone of huge projects such as the know? How many Luas lines could we purchase interconnector and the metro runs to hundreds of for the price of a single metro line? Is there any millions of euro and mistakes in such projects can point in asking for some type of public debate preclude other projects. Such errors have far- even at this late stage? The cost is important, not reaching implications that go beyond the merely to mention the cost of the congestion that will financial. be caused in the interim period and during the The Transport 21 document, when it was construction phase. launched, did not inspire confidence, consisting In any case, any costings or evaluations that only of a two-page list of projects and one map. may have been done are now redundant because There were more people involved in launching it of the passage of time. The metro project is now than there were pages in the document. The real so far behind that any ballpark figure that may disgrace, however, was the revelation that it have been offered is irrelevant and we have would involve the expenditure of \34 billion of moved to a completely different ballpark. It is taxpayers’ money. It was an insult to the tax- extremely doubtful that the construction of the payer, who will foot the bill, that there was no metro will commence much less finish, within the information available to the public. It was a lifetime of Transport 21. The same applies to matter of further concern, meanwhile, that no many projects throughout the State. The Minister further information was available from the and Taoiseach regularly talk about projects com- Department. It was simply a list and could not be ing in on time. They seem oblivious to the fact called a proper transport plan. that they come in on time simply because the I have no doubt that much work went into the appointed time keeps changing. In recent months, individual projects, but the list itself has not been for example, the Department’s website revised subject to alternative project evaluation, cost outwards the timetables of 11 of these major pro- benefit analysis or any type of financial appraisal. jects. In addition, by keeping costings secret, the In short, projects were chosen not on a sound fin- Government manages to put forward the spin ancial basis or because they were part of a com- that projects are also being completed within prehensive, co-ordinated and integrated transport budget. Nothing could be further from the truth. plan but simply on the strength of their lobbying Given that almost every public transport pro- agency, whether that was the RPA, Dublin Bus, ject is now running late, there is an absolute Irish Rail and so on, or because of the activity of necessity to ensure that other capital transport a local lobby group in the run up to a general projects are slotted in to take up the slack. If the election. Dublin Port tunnel, probably the most construction of the metro will not commence expensive project ever and the most useless in until after the ten-year Transport 21 project has terms of value for money, must give us some expired, the enormous resources earmarked for sense of the dangers of stand-alone projects that that project should be used for other transport are not part of an integrated and co-ordinated initiatives. The availability of \34 billion for transport plan. The dangers of projects going transport projects in the course of ten years ahead based only on the lobbying of interest equates to progress. However, \34 billion to be groups is that we can end up with the wrong pro- expended over 20 years equates to chaos. jects, using the wrong mode of transport, on the Viable projects must be brought forward. For wrong routes and with the wrong priority. example, I call for the construction of a Luas line For the tax paying public, unfortunately, the in my own area of Rathfarnham and Knocklyon. lack of transparency and accountability means There are many projects throughout the State 1157 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1158 that are ready to commence and could be slotted additional suburban rail journeys. Metro north into the plan. In terms of the roads programme, will allow commuters to travel to the city centre for instance, the roads that connect the inter- in 17 minutes. The plan will accommodate 80,000 urban routes should be prioritised. That is the additional bus journeys per day and 80 million way to go if we are serious about regional Luas and metro journeys per annum. There will development. It is no use continuing the orbital be seven new Luas projects. routes out from Dublin and leaving it at that. Our falling competitiveness and faltering econ- Deputy Olivia Mitchell: When will those omy is due in no short measure to the Govern- ambitions be realised? ment’s failure to tackle traffic congestion in the past ten critical years. That congestion has Deputy John Curran: It is important that increased the cost of going to work, reduced the everybody grasps the scale of the project. Deputy volume of business done in any one day, reduced Mitchell may laugh but there is no doubt that it the number of deliveries, pushed up wage is happening. The realisation of an ambitious pro- demands and impacted hugely on people’s quality ject will always involve issues and difficulties. We of life, especially in cities. We still have a chance must bear in mind that some of the delays that to rescue the economy if we learn from the mis- have been mentioned arose as a consequence of takes of the past ten years, but only if the political people exercising their democratic rights in will exists to do so. respect of the planning process. In regard to It is vital from the perspective of the economy many of these projects, including some in my that capital projects, particularly public transport area, a public consultation process has com- projects, that are productive and sustaining in the menced and progress is being made. Some pro- way that much of the house building activity in jects in my area included in Transport 21 are at recent years was not, are brought forward to take the planning stage, others are at public consul- up the slack and to afford employment to the tation and others still are under construction. skilled workers who will be made redundant as a Deputy Cuffe spoke earlier about land use and consequence of the slowed housing market. Thus, transportation. It is important to bear in mind transport projects are important not only in them- that Transport 21 not alone provides transport selves but are also of benefit to the economy gen- solutions to existing communities but opens up erally. We must proceed with the expenditure of and affords new areas of development, partic- the funding allocated for transport projects, so ularly in my area of Dublin. The Adamstown and many of which seem to be falling behind. Clonburris strategic development zones are examples. Deputy John Curran: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Before I refer Adamstown is a new area being developed specifically to Transport 21, I will respond to which is serviced by mainline rail and Dublin Bus. some of the points made by Deputy Mitchell. Her A couple of hundred housing units have been reference to a “faltering economy” could not be built and before any were occupied, the train further from the truth. station was built and operational. That is the way we must go forward. People speak about Trans- Deputy Olivia Mitchell: Is it not faltering? port 21 and what it is providing. Not alone is it serving our existing communities but the plan is Deputy John Curran: The growth in our econ- for it to serve new communities in future, which omy in the past decade has underpinned and I welcome. afforded us the opportunity to embark on such My constituency of Dublin Mid-West has the an ambitious project as Transport 21. Deputy main population centres of Clondalkin and Mitchell referred to delays in several projects Lucan, and metro west is a very welcome before suggesting that we go back to the drawing development there. At this stage metro west has board and start the process all over again. We gone through the initial public consultation and a cannot go back there. preferred route has now been selected. Metro Historically, we have not had the opportunity west links Tallaght, Clondalkin, Lucan and to allocate sufficient investment in public trans- Blanchardstown to metro north and out to port services and infrastructure. Transport 21 is Dublin Airport and beyond. For people living in the first major initiative that encompasses several Clondalkin and Lucan, the metro is not just about types of transport, including metro, Luas, roads, the connection to the airport, far from it. Dublin Bus and so on. Members from all sides For too long, we have considered facilities welcomed this initiative. Transport 21 is a project revolving around Dublin city, and this is where to which more than \30 billion was allocated and some of these projects come into their own. which was to run from 2006 to 2015. There have People living in Clondalkin and Lucan use other been time delays on certain projects but the scale areas, such as the hospitals and third-level of those delays is being exaggerated to an unfair colleges in Blanchardstown and Tallaght and degree. shopping facilities in Liffey Valley, Tallaght and Transport 21 envisages 175 million additional Blanchardstown. It is important that we look in public transport journeys, including 75 million future at where people are travelling to and work- 1159 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1160

[Deputy John Curran.] impression that projects are coming in on time is ing. Not all routes should necessarily lead to to be untruthful. The reality is the Committee of Dublin city. Public Accounts, chaired by a member of the Some previous speakers referred to integrated Opposition, has time and again come to the same and co-ordinated services as if they are not hap- conclusions in recent years. pening or were not being planned. Going through During leaders’ questions this morning, people public consultation and what is happening on the queried if Dublin Bus has extra bus capacity or if ground, it is precisely what is happening in my it has replacement buses. Last year Dublin Bus area. The metro and Kildare route project inte- got 100 additional buses. Approximately a dozen grate at Fonthill, which is the key element of the of these buses are on a route in my area, the 151. development in bringing together these services. To be fair to Dublin Bus, it did something which Park and ride facilities will also be provided. was novel and a bit of a challenge by running the People have stood up here and stated that buses on the quality bus corridors rather than there is no integration among services but we are through housing estates. They run from Adams- not seeing evidence of this on the ground. The town to Grangecastle to the city centre and the Tallaght Luas line will also integrate with the pro- IFSC, and they are making much better journey posed new metro west. There is a significant level times than before. In excess of 25,000 passengers of integration and people are choosing, when are now using that bus on a weekly basis, a sig- contributing here to the debate on Transport 21, nificant number. to blatantly ignore what is happening on the As we consider the sprawl outside Dublin city, ground. one area I would see as being slow and weak in I will refer to the M50, which is mentioned development has been park and ride facilities. almost every day on the news. The Red Cow We have put in QBCs, we have rural buses and roundabout, as we formerly knew it, is effectively the Dublin Bus service, but we do not have gone, replaced by a building site for an inter- adequate park and ride facilities for people com- change. The works are causing problems for ing from ten or 20 miles away, who have to drive people living in the area, such as myself, family right into Dublin city. That is a pity. The Luas and friends, along with others who travel through service has a park and ride facility at the Red the junction every day. However, we can see Cow, which is well used. We should provide such improvements. It will certainly not be complete services in the short term, although Transport 21 in 2007 but a substantial piece of the Red Cow is planned to run for a decade. site will be completed early in 2008, offering significant alleviation at one of the worst bottle- Deputy Liz McManus: I am very glad to have necks this country has seen on a daily basis. the opportunity to speak in this debate as today This is not isolated, and I would return to the saw the first meeting of a new Oireachtas Com- point of acting in a co-ordinated way. As soon as mittee on Climate Change and Energy Security. the Red Cow is finished, the previous junction at I welcome the establishment of the committee, of Newlands Cross is marked for improvement. The which I am a member. I note in the committee transport projects we are embarking upon are terms of reference that we are to consider the integrated and closely related. projected energy demand from transport and the Much has been made of the fact that costings implications for energy security and emissions are not available for metro west. I agree with the targets, a very worthwhile aim. Ministers arguing against showing its total cost. The reality is that setting up a committee will We cannot give away a competitive advantage by not solve the problem we have regarding a frag- indicating how much money we have. Tendering mentation of responsibility within Government companies will know the ballpark figures but if and how Ministers will co-ordinate efforts to we are to be truly competitive, we cannot give the reduce carbon emissions and tackle climate total cost away in advance. We should seek best change while ensuring we do not run into deep value for money for the taxpayer. difficulties relating to future energy Others have stated it is Government spin that requirements. reports projects are coming in on time and within I will give an example. I tabled a priority ques- budget. That is rubbish as the Government does tion to the Minister for Communications, Energy not report this. Such matters have frequently and Natural Resources relating to the carbon come before the Committee of Public Accounts, emissions from transport. That question was which is chaired by a member of the Opposition. transferred, without consultation with me, to the In recent years that committee has found trans- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and port projects, and particularly road projects, have Local Government. The Minister for the Envir- come in on time and ahead of budget. They are onment, Heritage and Local Government is not coming in considerably differently in the past responsible for energy but he is responsible for three years than they were four, five and six climate change. The Minister for Transport is not years ago. responsible for carbon emissions but he is respon- It should be acknowledged that this is not sible for transport. Government spin. For people to stand up in this House and state that such spin is just giving the Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: That is right. 1161 Transport 21: 14 November 2007. Statements (Resumed) 1162

Deputy Liz McManus: It is an unholy mess. and Wexford at a great disadvantage. That is unacceptable. Statistics show the south-east has Deputy Fergus O’Dowd: Hear, hear. not kept up economically with many other parts of the country. It is a hidden problem. We must Deputy Liz McManus: The result of this is I do ensure we are in the loop created by the outer not get answers to the questions I raise, which I orbital road or we will fall far behind. This is a must do as a public representative paid a fairly drum I will beat at every opportunity. decent salary to come into the House to scrutinise People in Wicklow would love to use public what the Government is doing. transport but it simply does not exist for them. There is a DART line and a rail line from Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear. Rosslare but that line is way down the list of priorities for rail development. A railway line Deputy Liz McManus: The issue I raised is runs alongside Avoca village. For very little serious. This is frustrating but it is not within my money, the station could be opened to allow power to resolve the problem. I ask the Ceann people to commute to Dublin. The train stops in Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to Rathdrum but not in Avoca and people in Avoca consider this issue. Today, I found I was ruled constantly demand the re-opening of the station. out of order in putting down a priority question On Monday night people were petitioning me yet relating to An Post, being told the Minister had again on the matter. I appreciate Deputy Roche no responsibility for postal services. The question has raised the issue and I hope we can work I asked was about policy and it is not good together on it but it makes no sense that people enough for the Ceann Comhairle to throw this in Avoca have no option other than travelling to back at me on the basis that the Minister has no work by car. responsibility in the area. Whatever about the One pensioner I know was extremely frus- Minister for Health and Children and our com- trated by the restrictions put in place by the bus plaints about her transferring questions to the service. A bus to Arklow leaves Avoca at 11 a.m. HSE, at least she accepts the questions. and returns at 1.45 p.m. This gentleman is very About a third of our carbon emissions come sick and must go on a daily basis to his doctor. from transport so it is a huge issue. It is not some- He cannot do that within the timeframe and tells thing like electricity generation where we can find me that people are always hitch hiking on the easy alternatives. It is a major aspect of transport Avoca to Arklow road. That does not make sense policy. When we debate Transport 21 or any and is certainly not a safe alternative for those issues relating to transport, we must bear in mind who need access to their local town. the energy requirements of policies that depend primarily on the use of the car over everything If there is to be sustainable development, it else. Transport 21 had all the hallmarks of the must be social as well as environmental. At health strategy produced by Deputy Michea´l present there is a concentration on flagship pro- Martin before the 2002 election. It was a wish list jects the Minister or the Taoiseach can open with and the reply to a question from Deputy great fanfare, such as the port tunnel project. Broughan makes clear that the reality is different Usually these have gobbled up huge resources, from the aspirations in the strategy. There are gone way over budget and taken longer than delays in a range of projects and the Minister for planned. Meanwhile improvements that could be Transport has admitted that he has not lived up made in public transport for a much better return, to all the aspirations. I remember one of the and for access to it for those on low incomes for Minister’s predecessor’s undertaking that the much less are not being made. That is one of my metro would be delivered for the airport within a major regrets about transport policy. I hope the two or four year time frame. Minister will consider his failure to live up to his The Luas lines are still unconnected, a monu- aspirations in this document and reconsider what ment to the lack of joined up thinking in Govern- is important. ment. Luas is coming to Cherrywood, however, just over the border from Wicklow. Luas in Deputy Michael McGrath: I welcome the reality is led by developers not by the public opportunity to contribute to this discussion on good. The community in Bray came together, led Transport 21 on its second anniversary. It is sig- by business interests, and fought hard for the nificant that for the first time in the history of the Luas extension to Bray, although it was disap- State, an overall transport plan has been pub- pointed that the Green Party did not fight the lished by the Government for the period 2006 to good fight when it had the chance when preparing 2015 embracing public expenditure of in excess of the programme for Government. Thankfully the \34 billion. extension was agreed in principle by the We have seen dramatic improvements in recent Government. years in our transport infrastructure as a result of We have another battle on our hands. The our economic growth and the number of vehicles outer orbital route, which is not in the document on the roads multiplying. There has been conges- but is part and parcel of NRA planning, will tion but anyone travelling in recent years will extend from Drogheda to Naas, leaving Wicklow have seen those improvements. 1163 Child Care: 14 November 2007. Motion (Resumed) 1164

[Deputy Michael McGrath.] and further calls on the Government to We must prioritise investment in public trans- extend application of the existing subvention port. I am delighted there is now an hourly scheme up to 31 December 2008 to end the service on the Dublin to Cork route. In a full cal- current uncertainty. endar year, this will carry more than 3 million passengers, a remarkable achievement, with the Debate resumed on amendment No. 1: public responding to the improved quality of To delete all words after “Da´il E´ ireann” and service and the 67 new railway carriages in place substitute the following: on that route. I also welcome the Government’s commitment “notes: to carry out a feasibility study for light rail for — the success of the Equal Opportunity Cork, particularly in the context of the review of Childcare Programme (EOCP) in estab- the Cork area strategic plan that is lishing a child care infrastructure in 7’oclock currently under way. The national Ireland from a very low base, creating spatial strategy designates Cork as a over 35,000 child care places, which sup- gateway city so I hope the study will start in the port not just parents in accessing near future. The major development that will employment, education and/or training, take place in the city over the next decade under but also provide many young children the docklands development plan makes invest- with the benefit of early years ment in a light rail system in Cork a serious con- education; sideration. I acknowledge the planned re-opening of the — the role within that programme of the Cork to Midleton railway line, which will open staffing scheme, which over eight years up a significant area for major commercial and provided a total of \174 million in sup- residential development and improve public ports for the running costs of com- transport links to Cork city. munity based not-for-profit services in disadvantaged areas; Debate adjourned. — that the staffing scheme was originally awarded to such groups for a limited Private Members’ Business. period, in order to allow them become self-sustaining where this was possible; ———— — that following this period, a number of Child Care: Motion (Resumed). such groups in very disadvantaged areas were awarded staffing continuation The following motion was moved by Deputy funding to the end of the EOCP, to Alan Shatter on Tuesday, 13 November 2007: allow them continue to reduce the fees charged to disadvantaged parents. A That Da´il E´ ireann, condition of this funding was the calls on the Government to radically mod- development of tiered fees, to ensure ify the new proposed child care subvention that the benefit of the grant aid went to scheme that the Government intends to the disadvantaged parents it was become fully operational from 1 July 2008, intended for. This also ensured that as this scheme: community services did not unfairly compete with private services for — will impose intolerable financial press- middle and higher income parents; ures on many parents by increasing the expense of child care; — that a value for money review was conducted of the EOCP in 2006-07, which — will force some parents to leave consulted with all stakeholders, includ- employment and become dependent on ing community child care providers, social welfare payments; private child care providers, parents, — threatens to cause the closure of many and Government Departments. While not-for-profit cre`ches throughout the largely positive regarding the scheme, it country; called for the current method of funding to be replaced with a less ad hoc and — presently renders it impossible for such more transparent system, which would cre`ches to recruit new staff on a perma- more effectively target funding to dis- nent basis; and advantaged groups. The community child care subvention scheme (CCSS) — undermines the prospects of returning has been developed to provide this to the workforce or the obtaining of framework; essential training and education by parents presently working in the home — that the staffing scheme will cost over who wish to resume employment; \37 million in 2007, whereas \153 mil- 1165 Child Care: 14 November 2007. Motion (Resumed) 1166

lion has been secured for the CCSS and early years education for their chil- over the three-year period 2008-10 dren; and starting with \47 million in 2008; and — the steps taken to ensure that this tar- — in addition to this targeted support for geted funding benefits the most dis- disadvantaged parents, universal sup- advantaged of children, who would not port is available to all parents towards otherwise have access to such services.” the cost of child care through child benefit and the early child care sup- — (Minister of State at the Department plement, and the latter alone costs over of Health and Children, Deputy \400 million in a full year; Brendan Smith). welcomes: An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Two minutes remain to Deputy O´ Caolaín. — that on the announcement of the new scheme in July 2007, it was also Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: I repeat that announced that the current level of the community child care subvention scheme is funding to services would continue to fundamentally flawed. As I stated last evening, July 2008, to allow the collection of data which would allow costing of improve- we should be moving towards the universal pro- ments to the subventions under the vision of preschool child care. The mooted scheme, and that a series of regional scheme moves us in the opposite direction seminars were held where this was out- towards a two-tier structure that mirrors our lined to community child care grossly inequitable two-tier health service. We in providers; Sinn Feín have set out our vision of how the State should address the vitally important issue of child — that the large majority of groups have care. We believe the Government should work to already returned this data, and the achieve a set of goals within a definite timeframe. Office of the Minister for Children has The goals include supporting the provision of the started to collate and analyse it in order best care for all children; enabling all parents to to advise the Government in regard to reconcile their child care needs with participation any changes or improvements which in the labour force, education and training; may be introduced, as promised last enabling all parents to exercise their choice of July; care for their children full-time up to one year of — the initial analysis of this data suggests age; enabling all parents to access affordable child that, under the new scheme, even with care for their children; establishing universal no subvention, the price charged to State provision of preschool for all children from non-disadvantaged parents will be sig- the age of three to five years; and establishing a nificantly below the market price of universal provision of early childhood care and child care, largely as a result of capital education based on the best international models. grant aid and the not-for-profit nature In the interim, Sinn Feín has called on the of the services in question; Government to introduce a range of measures — a number of services, which already had that include the harmonisation of maternity leave a strong focus on disadvantage and had on an all-Ireland basis by increasing maternity implemented the tiered fee structure, leave from the current 26 weeks paid leave and have contacted the Office of the Mini- extending unpaid maternity leave to 26 weeks. ster for Children to say that, having got the information required from parents, An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy’s two they will now have an increased level of minutes have expired. grant aid from July 2008, regardless of any future improvements; and Deputy CaoimhghıńO´ Caolaín: Sinn Feín also — the recent reiteration of the Office of advocates the introduction of paid paternity leave the Minister for Children that this and payment in respect of parental leave. Sinn analysis will be completed early in 2008, Feín fully supports the Opposition motion and and that enhancements based on the urges the Government to think again, to listen to data will be presented to Government child care workers and parents and to return to well in advance of next July; the drawing board and design a scheme that is worthy of Members’ consideration and of the endorses: important need they seek to address. — the Government’s approach to sup- plementing universal supports to all Deputy Mary Upton: I wish to share time with parents such as child benefit and early Deputies Ciarań Lynch and Sherlock. child care supplement, with additional supports to parents who would not An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is that agreed? otherwise be able to afford child care Agreed. 1167 Child Care: 14 November 2007. Motion (Resumed) 1168

Deputy Mary Upton: I welcome the oppor- ensure they are workable and are allowed to tunity to speak on this debate. Like my col- work. What is the logic behind providing a state- leagues, many of my constituents have been in of-the-art child care facility and then failing to touch with me to express great concern regarding provide the funding to run it? This is precisely the Government’s proposals and the new what has happened in one child care facility I vis- arrangements that are supposed to benefit ited in Ballyfermot. The Star is a superb facility parents who are in need of child care facilities. for which wonderful people are ready to work. While one would have hoped that any new While its opening ceremony was conducted with Government amendments to the current system much aplomb, it appears that its only purpose was would prove beneficial to parents, unfortunately as a photo opportunity for a Minister. the opposite is the case. The new proposals will The consequences of the new proposal will have several serious disadvantages for parents include segregation, isolation, exclusion, poverty who have been able until now to avail of a traps, the loss of jobs because community child reasonably-priced child care service. care facilities will not be able to fund the staffing The acquisition of affordable quality child care required and damage to the early learning of remains one of the principal challenges facing all children. parents and young and first-time parents in particular. The proposed amendments to the current Deputy Ciara´n Lynch: I thank the Leas- system will certainly lead to many parents being Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak forced to give up work or being driven away from on an issue that is of increasing concern. I also opportunities to return to education. The only acknowledge the contacts and correspondence parents who will be eligible for subvention assist- that I have received from community child care ance under the new Government proposal will be groups from throughout the southern region. The those in receipt of social welfare or family income proposed restructuring of the community child supplement payments. care provision will result in a radical change of For such parents, especially single parents and the existing scheme. An independent examin- those on low incomes, the new system will act as ation shows that additional charges will be placed an incentive to go back on social welfare, thus on parents, additional operational costs for com- creating a new poverty trap for them. The munity child care providers must be recouped removal of access to affordable child care for such locally and a reduction in services and possible parents is a retrograde step designed only to closure of some child care facilities will arise from create an environment in which those who this measure. Furthermore, it will reduce the endeavour to improve their lot are penalised and social flexibility and mobility that is built into the may find themselves back in the revolving door of the social welfare system. This benefits no one: service at present and which I consider one of its not the parents, the children, the community nor key aspects. Were this to be lost, it would under- the State. Moreover, there is no provision in the mine completely the concept of community child new system for access to subventions for grand- care in the broad conception of what constitutes parents, for example, who have their grand- a community. It will also make it practically children in child care and early leaning facilities. impossible to maintain those standards that have Frequently, such children come from very diffi- been developed in recent years and the proposal cult backgrounds and early intervention and posi- deliberately sets out to undermine them. tive child care is an absolute necessity to provide The irony in this regard is that the funding that them with a decent opportunity. has been made available at both national and Another problem has been highlighted by European level has facilitated the emergence many of those who have spoken to me on this from the Dark Ages of child care in Ireland. issue, namely, the segregation of children. The Child care facilities in the communities are now only children who will be entitled to avail of com- in a no-win situation whereby they will become munity cre`che facilities will be those whose victims of their success due to the social mobility parents are in receipt of social welfare benefits. fostered within them. The Government’s pro- As other parents will be required to pay, it not posals contain two fundamental flaws, which are unreasonable to assume they will move their chil- also mirrored in its amendment before the House. dren to private child care facilities. Once again, If one examines the operation of community child the net result will be the creation of a two-tier care, the biggest group is the mid-tier group, system. Only those in receipt of social welfare which is being removed. Had the sector been payments will be forced to send their children to examined properly, it would have been discerned community child care facilities, while other that most service providers are now included parents will avail of private child care facilities within the tier that will be penalised. Second, and the social mix that is so important for child- although the Government claims it is investing hood development simply will be removed from \153 million in the sector, that sum is mere pie in the system. the sky. As one must be in the classification one Rather than cutting out those who most need category to draw down the aforementioned \153 support, the Minister should examine the services million under the new funding structure, that sum and facilities that are available at present and is a nonsense. 1169 Child Care: 14 November 2007. Motion (Resumed) 1170

The Government would have been better off Deputy Margaret Conlon: I wish to share time had it left the system as it was and simply invested with Deputies Dooley, Curran, McDaid, Flynn, a few pounds more. The system was not broken Fitzpatrick, Scanlon, Moynihan and White. but required improvement. In effect, the Govern- ment proposes to create what local providers are An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is that agreed? calling a ghettoisation of the service. It will drive out working parents on low incomes who will be Deputy John Curran: How many minutes do penalised by no longer being able to avail of com- we each have? munity child care in their localities. I commend those in this sector who are conducting this cam- An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Three minutes paign. The measure of its success is demonstrated each. by the manner in which the Government is becoming watery on the issue. This will be Deputy Margaret Conlon: I welcome the reflected in the Chamber tonight by the number opportunity to speak in support of the amend- of Fianna Fa´il Members who will perform a ment to the motion. We have made huge progress Pontius Pilate act on the Minister on this issue. in the provision of child care facilities over the past few years. I wish to place on record my Deputy Sea´n Sherlock: If the Government’s recognition of the necessary role played by the proposals succeed, there will be dire con- many community and private providers of child sequences for the provision of not-for-profit child care. Both have a significant role to play. It is care and the significant contribution made by this important to note that 80% of child care services sector to our communities will be rolled back. do not receive any subvention. Under the EOCP, Any changes to the subvention structure under targeted support was provided through the staff- the national child care investment programme ing support grant scheme whereby community- that result in a reduction in staffing levels will based not-for-profit child care providers with a mean a reduction in funds available to pay staff strong focus on disadvantage were awarded grant in many community-based child care centres. This aid towards their staffing costs to allow them to possibility contradicts the commitment in the offer reduced rates to disadvantaged parents. national development plan to provide an Nobody in this House would disagree that we additional 28,000 child care places and 8,000 jobs must seek to tackle disadvantage in all aspects of life. I am proud of the efforts made by this in child care. It could be argued that this subven- Government in tackling disadvantage, partic- tion is being introduced in reverse. That is to say, ularly in the area of child care. It has facilitated the highest rate of subvention is being suggested many women who wish to return to the work- for parents who are in receipt of full social wel- place while at the same time providing a valuable fare. If a parent stops receiving social welfare and learning and social environment for children, who takes up employment that parent’s subvention for must always come first. Over the last few weeks child care is reduced. This reduces the incentive there has been much misinformation and political to take up employment. point-scoring in this area and it is important that The Government, through its actions, is contra- factual information is given to the public. The dicting its own stated policy. At present, com- EOCP ends next month and the community child munity child care facilities serve a mix of families care subvention scheme is being introduced from reflective of the local community. If this subven- January. This will continue to support community tion scheme is implemented according to the cur- child care services to enable them to provide rent proposals, community child care facilities affordable child care to disadvantaged parents. may be seen as centres at which only the children Contrary to Opposition claims, the scheme has of social welfare recipients are facilitated. This is an allocation of \153 million, an increase of 16% contrary to any social inclusion remit. How will , which is ring-fenced over the next three years. working families on marginal incomes who are That is a clear signal from the Government that not entitled to any form of State support have we are not going to walk away from our commit- access to affordable child care? Community child ment to child care. The Minister introduced a care facilities which have been in receipt of staff- transitional period until July 2008 so that this ing grants since 2002 will now be obliged to con- Department can analyse the information received sider increasing their fees as a result of these from service providers. There is a need for this measures. Where is the commitment to quality data in order to ensure openness and trans- child care centres and to the benefits of early parency in the delivery of the scheme. From the childhood education and socialisation? Where is outset, the Minister clearly stated he would ana- the commitment to the volunteers all over the lyse the data and take into consideration any country who have given of their time, and are still emerging issues so the scheme would be doing so, to find sites, apply for funding, fill in implemented in such a way as to ensure the opti- forms, set up services and become employers? I mum outcome for parents and children who avail call on the Government to rethink its proposals of community child care facilities. That commit- and let com