BRITISH-IRISH INTER- PARLIAMENTARY BODY COMHLACHT IDIR- PHARLAIMINTEACH NA BREATAINE AGUS NA hÉIREANN _________________________ TWENTY-SIXTH PLENARY CONFERENCE 24 and 25 March 2003 Kilkenny Ormonde Hotel, Kilkenny _______________________ OFFICIAL REPORT (Final Revised Edition) (Produced by the British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association) IN ATTENDANCE Co-Chairmen Mr Brendan Smith TD Mr David Winnick MP Members and Associate Members Mr Harry Barnes MP Rt Hon Andrew Mackay MP Mr Henry Bellingham MP Mrs Rosemary McKenna CBE MP Mr Johnny Brady TD Mr Andrew Mackinlay MP Rt Hon the Lord Brooke of Sutton Mr Michael McMahon MSP Mandeville CH Mr Kevin McNamara MP Mr Alistair Carmichael MP Senator Martin Mansergh Senator Paul Coghlan Dr John Marek AM Dr Jerry Cowley TD Mr Michael Mates MP Mr Seymour Crawford TD Rt Hon Sir Brian Mawhinney MP Dr Jimmy Devins TD Senator Paschal Mooney The Lord Dubs Mr Arthur Morgan TD Mr John Ellis TD Senator Francie O’Brien Mr Damien English TD Mr William O’Brien MP Mr Jeff Ennis MP Ms Liz O’Donnell TD Mrs Margaret Ewing MSP Mr Jim O’Keeffe TD Mr Donald J Gelling CBE MLC Senator Mary O’Rourke Mr Brian Gibbons AM The Lord Glentoran CBE DL Mr Séamus Pattison TD Mr Dominic Grieve MP Mr Chris Ruane MP Mr John Griffiths AM Mr David Ruffley MP Senator Brian Hayes Mr Alex Salmond MP Mr John Hume MP Mr Joe Sherlock TD Ms Helen Jackson MP The Lord Smith of Clifton Ms Cecilia Keaveney TD Mr Iain Smith MSP Mr Tony Killeen TD Mr Jamie Stone MSP Mr Séamus Kirk TD The Lord Temple-Morris Mr Conor Lenihan TD Mr Gareth Thomas MP Dr Dai Lloyd AM Deputy Michael Torode Mr Steve McCabe MP Mr Murray Tosh MSP OFFICIALS Joint Clerks Ms Alda Barry, British Clerk Mr Jim Mulkerrins, Irish Clerk Secretary to the Body Mr Colm McGrady Delegation Clerks Scotland – Mr Craig French Wales – Mr Peter Kellam Committee Clerks to the Body Committee A: Sovereign Matters Mr Colm McGrady Mr Huw Yardley Committee B: European Affairs Mr Mike Clark Ms Marianne Bolger Committee C: Economic Mr Colm McGrady Mr John Whatley Committee D: Environmental and Social Dr Christopher Johnson Ms Marianne Bolger Secretariat Mrs Veronica Carr Miss Amanda Hay Brigadier John Oborne OBE Media Adviser Mr Mike Burns British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association Mr Simon Burrowes – Editor Mr Anthony Day Ms Ann Maxwell Mr Simon Nicholls Mr Andy Philip Ms Carina Rourke BRITISH-IRISH ADOPTION OF PROPOSED INTER-PARLIAMENTARY PROGRAMME OF BUSINESS BODY The Co-Chairman (Mr Brendan Smith TD): I ask Co-Chairman Winnick to move the adoption of the pro- posed Programme of Business. The Co-Chairman (Mr David Winnick MP): Iso COMHLACHT move. IDIR-PHARLAIMINTEACH NA BREATAINE AGUS NA Programme of Business agreed. hÉIREANN TWENTY-SIXTH PLENARY RECENT POLITICAL DEVELOPMENTS CONFERENCE The Co-Chairman (Mr Brendan Smith TD): It would be helpful if Members who wish to speak in the debate, and who have not already given their names to the Clerks, Monday 24 March 2003 would do so as soon as possible, or otherwise indicate to the Chair that they wish to speak. The Steering Com- mittee proposes to limit speeches to four minutes, with The Body met at 9.40 am. 10 minutes for the opening and winding-up speeches. The proposed amendment to rules is the third item on the Programme of Business. The amendments were agreed by the Steering Committee at its meeting last night, and PLENARY BUSINESS copies of the proposed amendments have been placed on the document table. Members who wish to table The Co-Chairman (Mr Brendan Smith TD): Wel- further amendments should do so before the end of this come to the twenty-sixth plenary conference of the British- morning’s meeting. Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body in Kilkenny. I have some brief announcements to make. First, I remind everyone Mr Jim O’Keeffe TD: I beg to move to turn off pagers, bleepers and mobile telephones, and to put all newspapers aside. Secondly, I remind Members That the Body reaffirms its support for the Good Friday Agreement, which was democratically endorsed by the people of that the proceedings of the Body do not attract parlia- Ireland, both North and South; believes that the full implementation mentary privilege. of the Agreement is necessary to ensure peace, stability and I am pleased to inform the Body that Mr Alistair sustainable political institutions in Northern Ireland; welcomes the intensive efforts of the two Governments, in consultation with Carmichael MP has been nominated to replace Mr Lembit political parties in Northern Ireland, to secure rapid and full Öpik MP. I welcome Mr Carmichael to the Body. implementation of the Agreement, including the restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland; calls upon all parties In accordance with rule 2(a), the following Associate involved to redouble their efforts to achieve a successful outcome to Members have accepted the invitation of the Steering this process; and looks forward to the prospect of the Agreement Committee to assume the powers and responsibilities of being fully operational and in place before the Assembly elections Members for the entire sitting: Henry Bellingham MP; on 29 May. Dominic Grieve MP; Steve McCabe MP; Chris Ruane MP; David Ruffley MP; Alex Salmond MP; Gareth It is clear that both Governments have been engaged in Thomas MP; Brian Gibbons AM; Michael McMahon intensive discussions with each other and with the parties MSP; Jamie Stone MSP; Deputy Michael Torode from in Northern Ireland since the suspension of Northern Guernsey; and Senator Paul Coghlan from Seanad Éireann. Ireland’s devolved institutions in October 2002. These discussions have been fruitful, and they culminated in the I should inform Members that a group photograph will recent talks at Hillsborough Castle. It is clear that sub- be taken at 3.30 pm in the rose garden in Kilkenny Castle. stantial progress has been made and that it has been possible The sunshine has been organised for the photograph. to bridge or substantially close the gaps in several key areas. At this stage, although all parties have not signed up to every detail, there is nonetheless a shared understand- ing of the steps needed to achieve the required acts of completion on all sides. 1 Monday 24 March 2003 Recent Political Developments 9.45 am parliamentary level. It has worked on the basis of complete equality and will continue to do so in the future. We have The two Governments have consistently aimed to pro- made a contribution towards strengthening the relations vide clarity and certainty and to set down the obligations between the two Governments. After the two general and commitments needed to restore full confidence and elections in 1992 when the Anglo-Irish Inter-Governmental trust. The Prime Minister and the Taoiseach will return to Council met for the first time with new Ministers, of the Northern Ireland in early April. I expect that they will five Ministers in the room, three — both British and Irish publish their detailed proposals at that stage. — were former Members of the Body and were on Christ- The discussions at Hillsborough have once again ian name terms. It is important to remember that fact as demonstrated the parties’ ability to engage in the process those Ministers then carried out their all-important work. in a serious and committed spirit. The will to achieve Mr O’Keeffe mentioned decommissioning and the the full and effective implementation of the agreement is fact that there was no place for weaponry of any kind. In strong, and I hope that all parties will continue to work addressing that issue, it is sometimes almost impossible towards that goal. not to veer to one side of the argument. I have made The Assembly elections will now take place on 29 speeches in the Body and elsewhere that could be May. The idea behind the short four-week postponement construed to have been very Green, pro-Nationalist and is to give the parties the opportunity to consult fully on almost pro-Republican. However, more recently, I have and assimilate the detail of the Governments’ proposals made speeches that could be construed in the opposite prior to the commencement of the election campaign. way. If one places the emphasis on one side or the other, The postponement will also provide the parties with the it simply reflects the situation at that time. If one side necessary opportunity to discuss those proposals with makes a gesture, the other side does likewise, but that their colleagues and others. can be frustrating, as they often do not give enough. It is almost five years since the agreement was signed. With regard to decommissioning, I do not believe that During that time great progress has been witnessed in the IRAposes a danger to the peace process. It has Northern Ireland. Positive changes occur daily. The core contributed to the peace process for some years, and if it principles of the Good Friday Agreement are taking root, had not participated, we would never have been able to both in deed and in mindset. An examination of the way begin the process, let alone get to where we are today. that issues are being discussed reveals that previously However, having given the IRAcredit for that and for contentious issues are increasingly being treated on a some of its recent pronouncements, I say that it cannot consensual basis. Decommissioning is one of the issues have it both ways. Sinn Féin cannot claim the benefit of — it is not the only one — that is being discussed. There a constitutional position and a role in a process and in is no place in any future arrangements for paramilitaries of Government while at the same time being closely any hue or illegal weaponry of any kind.