Wednesday Volume 700 8 September 2021 No. 43

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 8 September 2021 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2021 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 285 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 286

Mr Jack: I think the hon. Gentleman is requesting a House of Commons meeting, and I would be happy to meet him. As he knows, the ferry service between Rosyth and Zeebrugge Wednesday 8 September 2021 ran from 2002 to 2018, but from 2010 was not a passenger service. We would want any service that comes forward to be economically viable. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Misuse of Drugs Act and Health Outcomes PRAYERS 2. Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] (SNP): What recent assessment his Department has made of the effect of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 on health outcomes in Scotland. [903221]

Oral Answers to Questions 9. Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): What recent assessment his Department has made of the effect of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 on health SCOTLAND outcomes in Scotland. [903228] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland The Secretary of State was asked— (Iain Stewart): The recent drug deaths in Scotland are Ferry Services: Scotland to Europe an absolute tragedy. The majority of the levers to tackle drug misuse are devolved to the Scottish Government, 1. Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West Fife) including health, education, housing and the criminal (SNP): What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet justice system. We are keen to work with the Scottish colleagues on the potential merits of creating direct Government to tackle this tragic issue and to share ferry services from Scotland to mainland Europe. [R] lessons throughout the United Kingdom. [903220] Martin Docherty-Hughes: I wonder why the Minister The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): and the Government refuse to base their policy on Let me start by saying that the Scottish athletes of evidence such as that from Portugal, Canada and Team GB have returned triumphant from the Tokyo Switzerland, where drug consumption rooms save lives. 2020 Olympic games with a record total of 14 medals, We cannot help people when they are dead; DCRs save surpassing the 13 medals won by Scottish athletes at lives. both the London and Rio Olympics. At the Paralympic games, the Scots of ParalympicsGB won an impressive Iain Stewart: There is not a unanimous view on the 21 medals. I congratulate every athlete who competed. I efficacy of drug consumption rooms. The Minister for also congratulate the Scottish football team on their Crime and Policing, my hon. Friend the Member for victory in Vienna last night. North West Hampshire (Kit Malthouse), recently had I regularly discuss a wide range of topics with Cabinet discussions with his counterpart in the Scottish Government colleagues, including transport and the Union connectivity and it was made clear that we are open to any new review. There are of course merits to any direct ferry evidence about drug consumption rooms, but they are services from Scotland. I understand that discussions not the single solution to the problem. This requires a for a new service to mainland Europe have been taking holistic approach. We are very happy to work with the place for some time. Scottish Government to explore all the different options. Douglas Chapman: I endorse the comments of the Joanna Cherry: There is plenty of evidence on the Secretary of State on the Olympic and Paralympic efficacy of drug consumption rooms. I am sure that my teams, and the tartan army result last night; I am colleagues who have worked on the issue would be absolutely delighted with second place in the group at happy to discuss it with the Minister. Portugal faced the moment, but let us go on to be first and get some of the highest rates of drug deaths in Europe at qualification. the turn of the century, but it radically reversed the The Secretary of State will be aware of recent dismal situation through decriminalisation and a public health export figures in the wake of Brexit, the need to reduce approach. The Scottish Government have used their lorry miles to help us get to net zero and the current powers to commit to the public health approach. The HGV driver crisis that make up the hat-trick of events question for the Minister is whether his Government that would seem to make the need for a ferry service will use their reserved powers to amend the Misuse of from Scotland to mainland Europe almost self-evident. Drugs Act and enable the measures that worked in However, there are barriers, including the commitment Portugal, such as drug consumption rooms, to happen. of Border Force to provide the resources and personnel The Scottish Government have done their bit. Will his to support that new route. Next week, we celebrate Government do theirs? London International Shipping Week— Iain Stewart: I have discussed the specific matter of Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but we have to get drug consumption rooms at some length with the hon. through the list of questions. The Secretary of State is and learned Lady’s colleague, the hon. Member for going to have to answer the hon. Gentleman as best he Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), so I am well aware can. [Interruption.] of the arguments for them, but there are arguments 287 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 288 against them. As I said in response to the hon. Member has a positive story to tell about them. The other thing for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes), that he failed to mention is that the legislation that we are happy to look at new evidence. In England and makes drug use a crime often traps vulnerable people in Wales, we have Project ADDER, which is showing a vicious cycle of poverty and crime. With that in mind, some promising early signs of being effective in combating will this Government finally commit to reviewing the drug misuse. I strongly urge the hon. and learned Lady’s 50-year-old legislation that is the Misuse of Drugs colleagues in the Scottish Government to take up our Act 1971? offer to extend that to Scotland. Iain Stewart: As I said to the hon. Lady’s colleagues, Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): In the last year for we constantly discuss these matters with our counterparts which figures are available, 1,339 lives were lost in in Scotland. We have made very serious offers, as I say, Scotland as a result of drug misuse, the worst number to extend Project ADDER, which looks at drugs misuse since records began in 1996, yet we got no solutions in a holistic way. There is evidence to show that that is from the SNP or from Nicola Sturgeon in her programme working. I strongly urge the Scottish Government to for government yesterday. Scottish Conservatives have take up that offer. Particularly on drug consumption put forward plans for a right to recovery Bill. Does the rooms, as I say, if there is new evidence there, we will Minister agree that the Scottish Government should consider it. engage with us to bring forward these proposals? Mhairi Black: In what world do you get to claim to be Iain Stewart: I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend and taking an issue seriously while in the same breath commit his colleagues have come up with an excellent policy in to change absolutely nothing? If the logical arguments this area, and it would be to the great advantage of will not convince, then maybe the financial ones will. people in Scotland that the Scottish Government take Crimes linked to drugs in Scotland cost £750 million a up the proposals that it contains. year to investigate and prosecute. Experts tell us that that money could be better spent. If the experts, the Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Scottish Government and even the Scottish Conservatives The Scottish Affairs Committee conducted the most can now agree that health needs to be the main approach, extensive inquiry ever undertaken into drug use in Scotland, why not the Minister? taking evidence from practically everybody with an interest and a stake in this issue. We concluded that we need every tool in the kitbag to address the scale of this Iain Stewart: I think the hon. Lady takes a very problem, from an increased resources position to adopting partisan view on this. We have put forward some very evidence-based solutions with best practice from concrete suggestions. I remind her that the vast majority international examples that have worked, such as drug of powers in this area lie with the Scottish Government, consumption facilities and decriminalisation. Why did and her Government have been in power for 14 years, so the UK Government reject nearly all of our conclusions perhaps they should spend a little bit more effort focusing and recommendations? on tackling some of these social issues rather than obsessing about independence, which no one wants. Iain Stewart: I understand that the report from that Committee, which I think was done in 2018, was not a Strength of the Union unanimous one and the Committee divided on it, which illustrates the fact that there is not the unanimity of 3. Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): What view on the proposals to which the hon. Gentleman recent assessment his Department has made of the refers. As I say, we keep an open mind on this as regards strength of the Union. [903222] fresh evidence that shows that policies work. My colleagues in the Home Office have discussed this with their counterparts in the Scottish Government and those 4. Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): What recent discussions will continue. assessment his Department has made of the strength of the Union. [903223] Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): My hon. Friend maybe aware of the sterling work done by my friend—albeit The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): not an hon. Friend—the Mayor of the West Midlands, My assessment continues to be that the United Kingdom Andy Street, on the misuse of drugs and controlling it. is the most successful political and economic union that To what degree does the Scottish Office liaise with the the world has ever seen. It is the foundation on which all regions of England to communicate with Scotland about our citizens and businesses are able to thrive. The United best practice? Kingdom Government are committed to protecting and promoting the strengths of our United Kingdom. Iain Stewart: I am happy to say to my hon. Friend that I discuss matters throughout the United Kingdom, Stephen Flynn: The helping hand of the Union has and if there are good, innovative practices in a particular left Scotland with no oil fund. It sees our renewables area it is of course wise to share that and encourage projects pay the highest grid charging levies in the other parts of the United Kingdom to follow suit. entirety of Europe. In 2015, we saw the scrapping of plans for a carbon capture and underground storage Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP): plant in Peterhead, so I am simply seeking reassurance The Minister says that there is no consensus as to drug from the Secretary of State that the Acorn project will consumption rooms, but, as has already been said, be one of two clusters to receive backing from his every country that has trialled safe consumption rooms Government next month. 289 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 290

Mr Jack: As the hon. Gentleman knows, that is Mr Jack: As I have said before at this Dispatch Box, under review. We want Acorn to be one of the tier 1 that is a matter for the Cabinet Office, and I suggest the projects, and we are pressing for that. I think he should hon. Gentleman raises it at Cabinet Office questions. press for his colleagues and his Government in Scotland to support the oil and gas industry. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Will the Secretary of State update the House on the scale of the Patrick Grady: How is the Union strengthened by the additional financial resource that Scotland received as a increasingly divergent franchises on these islands? Scotland’s result of the covid pandemic? Does he agree that it is Parliament was elected in May with an electorate including the strength of the UK balance sheet that allows the 16 and 17-year-olds, refugees and EU nationals, while UK Government to support every part of the United his Government’s Trumpian Elections Bill wants to Kingdom in times of crisis? suppress and restrict voter turnout. Surely that only increases the legitimacy and mandate of the Scottish Mr Jack: I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. Parliament and the Scottish Government, and makes The strength of support was over £14 billion during the this place even more detached from voters in Scotland. covid crisis, and the furlough support helped 900,000 jobs in Scotland at the height of the pandemic, which is Mr Jack: I think the coalition with the Greens shows nearly a third of the Scottish workforce. very clearly to everyone that one thing that the SNP failed to achieve in May was an outright majority. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): May I join the Secretary of State in congratulating our Olympians and Paralympians on their wonderful medals haul in Tokyo? David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and May I also congratulate the Scottish football team on a Tweeddale) (Con): “Shameful” and “disgrace” are words marvellous result last night? However, he knows, as all that Nicola Sturgeon likes to bandy at her opponents, Scots do, that it is the hope that kills you, so let us not but they truly apply to her announcement yesterday celebrate too much. that while Scotland continues to have some of the worst covid rates in Europe, she is diverting resources into Our shared social security system is vital to underpinning another divisive independence referendum. Will my right our Union, but by the next Scotland questions the hon. Friend confirm that the focus of this Government Government will have made the largest ever overnight will be to work constructively across the United Kingdom cut to social security for those in work by removing the to defeat covid, save jobs and restore our economy? £20 from universal credit. Citizens Advice Scotland says that more than half those people are worried about being able to buy food. At the same time, the Government Mr Jack: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. have broken another promise and want to increase Our focus is on rebuilding our economy. Our focus is on national insurance with the highest tax rise in 40 years. restoring our NHS. I think most right-minded Scots The Joseph Rowntree Foundation says that about would agree that using civil service resources to design a 150,000 working families on low incomes in Scotland prospectus for independence is the wrong thing to be will pay an average of £100 extra in tax while losing doing at this time. £1,000. What advice does the Secretary of State give those families on low incomes on where they should cut John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) £1,100 from their family budgets? (Con): Over the summer, new data published by the SNP Scottish Government showed the Union dividend Mr Jack: The uplift in universal credit was always to be worth £2,210 a person in Scotland. Does the intended to be temporary—it was to help claimants Minister agree that those figures simply confirm the through the economic shock and financial disruption of benefit of Scotland remaining at the heart of a strong the pandemic—and we now have the kickstart programme United Kingdom? and a multibillion-pound plan for jobs. I understand it is difficult to break a manifesto promise, and the Prime Mr Jack: I absolutely would agree with my hon. Minister was clear that he was doing that in raising Friend. I would add that the recent “Government national insurance, but he also had a manifesto promise Expenditure and Revenue Scotland” reports in August to address social care, which, since Tony Blair said he showed that the deficit last year for the Scottish budget would address it in 1997, has not been done. was £36.3 billion. That is more than the Scottish Government spend on education, housing, transport, Ian Murray: There is no money going into social care, culture and health. but we will leave that for a different time. Last week, Labour’s shadow team visited Orkney and its European Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): We know Marine Energy Centre. It has facilities such as the most that for the past two years, the Government have been powerful tidal turbine in the world, which results in its spending taxpayers’ money researching public opinion having excess energy that it cannot get back to the in Scotland on the state of the Union. For two years, I mainland. At the same time, the Scottish and UK have been trying to get answers as to what that research Governments are backing the Cambo oilfield. With says. For two years, the Cabinet Office has refused, COP26 coming to Scotland, should the Secretary of including appealing to the court of law and bringing in State not lead by example, refuse Cambo and reform outside consultants to fund its case. Is it not time, if the the outdated transmission charge regime while providing Secretary of State believes so much that the Union is funding for a new large-capacity interconnector between such a wonderful thing, for him to tell us what he has Orkney and Shetland and the mainland? That would found out about what Scottish people think about the bring huge benefits and innovation to the islands and state of the Union and publish this research? power large parts of Scotland from renewable resources. 291 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 292

Mr Jack: On Cambo, all our North sea oil licences to the pandemic. As the Prime Minister has stated, we are factored into the 2050 net zero plan. Discussions are will consult the devolved Administrations before finalising ongoing on the interconnector. It is partly devolved, the scope of that inquiry. with Ofgem and others involved. However, leaving that to one side, I take the overall view that there will be Mr Dhesi: Throughout the pandemic, one of the multiple uses for oil and gas for years to come—people most dangerous impacts has been not just that of the must understand that—and we may as well get oil virus itself, but the impact it has had on our NHS in domestically rather than import it. preventing life-saving operations from taking place. In Scotland, the situation has been made even worse through Transport Connections: Scotland and Rest of UK the Scottish SNP Government’s under-investment in the NHS, with over 450,000 people languishing on 5. Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) waiting lists prior to the pandemic, and that figure has (Con): What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet now risen to more than 600,000. Will the Minister work colleagues on improving transport connections between to ensure that the covid public inquiry in Scotland will Scotland and the rest of the UK. [903224] look into other aspects of the NHS? The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack): Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight I have regular discussions with Cabinet colleagues who that the impacts of the pandemic are felt in many areas are as excited as I am to ensure that we strengthen and in other parts of the health service, and there is a transport connections across the United Kingdom. We need to catch up with that backlog of missed operations recognise the importance of transport and how it is and treatments. I am absolutely delighted that, yesterday, vital to economic growth, job creation and social the Prime Minister set out very real progress and steps cohesion. That is why the Union connectivity review to make that happen, with additional spending in the was commissioned. I look forward to the publication of NHS right across the United Kingdom. the final report later this year. Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I am very sorry to tell Andrew Jones: The family, business and cultural links the House that Scotland now has one of the highest between Harrogate and Knaresborough and Scotland covid rates in all of Europe, with eight out of 20 hotspots are growing, but, for them to grow further, they will across Europe being in Scotland, according to the World need better connectivity. The east coast main line is at Health Organisation. Instead of learning the lessons of the heart of that. Will my right hon. Friend therefore the last year, the SNP Government have wasted the welcome the investments being made in that line and summer months with the virus spiralling out of control. highlight its importance in the Union connectivity review While the covid rate soars, the First Minister announced that he just mentioned? this week that Scottish civil servants will be tasked with drawing up arguments for Scottish independence. In the Mr Jack: Yes. The Government are determined to Minister’s discussions with the Scottish Government, level up every corner of the United Kingdom, bringing has he discussed the issue of Scottish civil servants communities across the country closer together. We being diverted from crucial covid-19 response work to recognise that infrastructure projects are important to plans for another independence referendum, and can he growing our economy, because wherever we create confirm that this will form part of the covid-19 inquiry connectivity, we create economic growth. into the Scottish Government’s failures? Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Iain Stewart: I am very happy to agree with the hon. (SNP): Fine words. So by which year will the high-speed Gentleman. Whether it is on learning the lessons from rail line be extended to the Scottish border? covid and making sure that our public services can catch up or whether it is on tackling drug abuse and a Mr Jack: Which high-speed rail line does the hon. whole range of other public service and social issues, Member have in mind—High Speed 2 going north or that should be the primary focus of the Scottish Galashiels coming south? He should wait for the outcome Government, not obsessing with another divisive of the connectivity review—which I must say the SNP referendum. did not engage in. Not only that; the SNP Government’s Transport Minister, rather irresponsibly, told his civil Free Trade Agreements: Opportunities for Scotland servant officials that they could not engage with Sir Peter Hendy or give him any data. When we then offered 7. Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): What recent £20 million for feasibility studies, they declined it. assessment he has made of the effect of new free trade agreements on trading opportunities for Scotland. Public Inquiry: Handling of Covid-19 in Scotland [903226] 6. Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): What 10. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What recent recent discussions he has had with Scottish Ministers assessment he has made of the effect of new free trade on the public inquiry into the handling of covid-19 in agreements on trading opportunities for Scotland. Scotland. [903225] [903229] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Iain Stewart): An inquiry into the devolved aspects of (David Duguid): This Government have already struck the covid-19 response was an SNP manifesto commitment, trade deals with more than 68 countries as well as the and the Scottish Government have now set out their EU worth £744 billion a year. This will create new next steps. The UK Government have committed to a markets for Scotland’s exporters, including our world- statutory inquiry into all key aspects of the UK’s response leading food and drinks sector. The Department for 293 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 294

International Trade team based in Edinburgh is also Mr Speaker: Order. Before we come to Prime Minister’s helping Scottish businesses thrive and grow internationally. questions, I point out that the British Sign Language Last week, I was delighted to meet the new DIT director interpretation of proceedings is available to watch on for Scotland heading up this team, and I look forward Parliament Live TV. to planning further engagement with her and her team.

Scott Benton: Scotland’s businesses will be among the PRIME MINISTER main beneficiaries of the trade deals we have already secured around the world, with our historic agreement The Prime Minister was asked— with Japan boosting trading opportunities for over Engagements 500 Scottish businesses alone. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that we will now be able to use our new Q1. [903340] Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab): If he will status as an independent trading nation to promote the list his official engagements for Wednesday 8 September. very best that Scottish industries have to offer to the world? The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson): This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further David Duguid: I completely agree with my hon. Friend: such meetings later today. he is absolutely right. This Government are working hard to strike new trade deals around the world that will Mick Whitley: In the run-up to the last election, the benefit key business sectors and consumers across Scotland Prime Minister said that “clearly it is wrong” that and across the whole of the UK. We are opening new hundreds of thousands of people are forced to rely on opportunities for iconic Scottish and British industries food banks to survive. Research released by the Trussell to thrive overseas. Trust today shows that one in six people fear that they will almost certainly have to use a food bank in just four Bob Blackman: As the Government negotiate new weeks’ time as a result of the Government’s decision to free trade deals around the world as global Britain, and axe the £20 uplift to universal credit. That is more than the new agreement with Australia removes the 5% tariff 500 families and 1,000 children being forced into food on the export of whisky to Australia hot on the heels of poverty in my constituency of Birkenhead alone. Will the tariff-free period of five years with the United the Prime Minister concede that the cut to universal States, does my hon. Friend agree that the advantage to credit is wrong, and will he change course? Scotland of negotiating together with the United Kingdom The Prime Minister: Of course I am very grateful to for free trade deals makes the case for the United everybody who helps with food banks, and they do a Kingdom to be together as one country? fantastic job.What this Government have done throughout the pandemic is to put the most protection for those David Duguid: On that final point, I could not agree who need it most across society, and I am proud of what more. It is hugely welcome to see the removal of the 5% we have done by uplifting the living wage, and proud of tariff on Scotch whisky in the agreement in principle the arm that we put around the whole of the British between the UK and Australia. That will help Scottish people. whisky distillers to continue to expand exports to Australia, which have almost doubled over the last decade, making Q7. [903346] Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con): Australia our eighth largest market by value. Will my right hon. Friend offer me an answer for my constituents of the future, as they sit around a tepid Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): With radiator powered by an inefficient and expensive air all these free trade deals, I wonder whether the Minister source heating unit, worrying about the payments on can detail what the losses are to the seafood industry the electric car that they did not want either, while they through Brexit, and what compensation it has received watch the growing economies of the world going hell through the UK Government. What are the current for leather building new gas and coal-powered stations? losses to the hospitality industry because it cannot They will be asking me, “Why?” Will the Prime Minister access EU labour, and what are the total losses to the please commit to solutions that are technologically Scottish Food and Drink Federation because of shortages possible to reduce Britain’s CO2, rather than uncosted caused by the HGV lorry driver crisis? commitments that—I am sorry—we will be hearing a lot of at COP26? David Duguid: I did not quite catch all of that, but I The Prime Minister: Not only has the price of batteries did catch the words “fishing” and “HGV drivers”. On fallen vertiginously, as has the cost of solar power, but I fishing, I would not be surprised if I talk to many more can tell my hon. Friend and the people of Thanet South people in the fishing industry than the hon. Gentleman that they have huge opportunities. The cost of wind does, and I will take my advice on the situation in the power in this country has fallen by 70% just in the last fishing industry from them, rather than from Opposition 10 years. What I think the people of Thanet want to see, Members, or indeed Twitter and the rest of social and I am sure my hon. Friend exemplifies it, is a spirit media. On HGV drivers, as my right hon. Friend the of Promethean technological optimism. Secretary of State has already said, we recognise this issue. This is not a Brexit issue, otherwise we would not Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I want be seeing the exact same problem right across Europe, to ask the Prime Minister about the promise he made to and in fact right across the world. The UK Government the British people to have already put measures in place to help increase, “guarantee that no one needing care has to sell their home to pay improve and speed up the recruitment of HGV drivers for it.” in this country. Does that guarantee still stand? 295 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 296

The Prime Minister: What this plan for health and Keir Starmer: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Prime social care does is deal, after decades, with the catastrophic Minister’s plan is to impose unfair taxes on working costs faced by millions of people up and down the people; my plan is to ensure those with the broadest country, and the risk that they could face the loss of shoulders pay their fair share. I know Conservative their home, their possessions and their ability to pass on Members do not like that. The truth is that the Prime anything to their children. This Government are not Minister’s plans do not do what he claims. People will only dealing with that problem but understand that in still face huge bills. Many homeowners will need to sell order to deal with the problems of the NHS backlogs, their homes. He is not denying it, when he could have you also have to fix social care. We are taking the tough done. The Prime Minister has failed the only test he set decisions that the country wants to see. We are putting for himself for social care. It was in the manifesto—another another £36 billion in. What I would like to know from manifesto promise, Prime Minister. the leader of the Labour party is: what is he going to do tonight? Silence from mission control and his— The Prime Minister indicated dissent. [Interruption.] Keir Starmer: It is no good shaking your head. And who is going to pay for the cost of this failure? Working Mr Speaker: Order. If you do not want to hear the people. Under the Prime Minister’s plan, a landlord Prime Minister, I certainly do, and I cannot hear him. It renting out dozens of properties will not pay a penny is not acceptable. Prime Minister, have you finished? more, but their tenants in work will face tax rises of hundreds of pounds a year. A care worker earning the The Prime Minister: I just want to ask the Leader of minimum wage does not get a pay rise under this plan, the Opposition whether he is going to vote for our but does get a tax rise. In what world is that fair? measures tonight. The Prime Minister: Actually, the Institute for Fiscal Mr Speaker: I know the House has been away, but it Studies has confirmed that this is a broad-based and is still Prime Minister’s questions. progressive measure. The top 20% of households by income will pay 40 times what the poorest 20% pay; the top 14% will pay half of the entire levy. The right hon. Keir Starmer: I noticed that the Prime Minister did and learned Gentleman talks about his plan. Well, I not stand by his guarantee that no one will need to sell have been scouring the records for evidence of the their house to pay for care. Let me explain why he did Labour plan, and I have found it. In 2018, the current not. Under the Prime Minister’s plan, someone with shadow Minister for Social Care, the hon. Member for £186,000 including the value of their home—that is not Leicester West (Liz Kendall), joined forces with Nick untypical for constituents across the country—who is Boles and Norman Lamb to promote a new dedicated facing large costs because they have to go into care will health and social care tax based on national insurance. have to pay £86,000. That is before living costs. Where Where is she? I can’t see her in her place, Mr Speaker. does the Prime Minister think they are going to get that She said that this was to be the country’s “Beveridge £86,000 without selling their home? moment”. Is the Labour party really going to vote against the new Beveridge moment tonight? The Prime Minister: As I think everybody understood in the long statement yesterday, this is the first time that Keir Starmer: Mr Speaker, let me tell you what an the state has come in to deal with the threat of these ambitious young Member for Henley said in 2002 in catastrophic costs, thereby enabling the private sector—the this House: financial services industry—to supply the insurance “national insurance increases are regressive”—[Official Report, products that people need to guarantee themselves against 17 April 2002; Vol. 383, c. 667.] the cost of care. What we are doing is lifting the I wonder what happened to him. If the Prime Minister floor—lifting the guarantee—up to £100,000, whereby is going ahead with this unfair tax, can he at least tell us nobody has to pay anything, across the entire country. this: will his plan clear the NHS waiting list backlog by We still have to hear from the Opposition what they the end of this Parliament—yes or no? would do to fix the backlogs in the NHS and fix social care after decades of inertia and inactivity. What would The Prime Minister: I think the whole House, indeed the Leader of the Opposition do? the whole country, can appreciate that we at least have a plan to fix the backlogs and we at least understand that the only way to fix the long-term underlying problems Keir Starmer: The Prime Minister’s plan is to impose in the NHS and the problem of delayed discharges is to an unfair tax on working people. My plan is to ensure— fix the crisis in social care as well, which Labour failed [Interruption.] My plan is to ensure that those with the to address for decades. We are going ahead and doing it. broadest shoulders pay their fair share. That is the What I have just understood from the right hon. and difference. [Interruption.] learned Gentleman—out of that minestrone of nonsense has floated a crouton of fact—is that he is going to vote Mr Speaker: Order. I say to both sides that I need to against the measures tonight. They are going to vote hear the question. I also need to hear the answer. If against plans to fix the backlogs and to fix social care. there are some Members who do not want to hear it, I Vote Labour, Mr Speaker, wait longer. am sure that their constituents want to hear it. It is not good to shout down either side when they are either Keir Starmer: It was a yes/no question. You either asking or answering a question. Please, our constituents clear the backlog or you don’t. The Prime Minister are interested. I want to hear, and they will want to cannot even say that he will do that. So there we have it: hear. Keir Starmer. working people will pay higher tax, those in need will 297 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 298 still lose their homes to pay for care and he cannot even backlogs and we would not finally be dealing with say if the NHS backlog will be cleared. [Interruption.] social care. This is the Government who take the tough He gesticulates, but they are all breaking their manifesto decisions to take this country forward. promises and putting up taxes for their working constituents for this? Tax rises are not the only way he is making Hon. Members: More! working people worse off. Some 2.5 million working families will face a doubly whammy: a national insurance Mr Speaker: You will get a little more if you listen to tax rise and a £1,000 a year universal credit cut. They Mr Jones’s question. are getting hit from both sides. Of all the ways to raise public funds, why is the Prime Minister insisting on Q8. [903347] Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): Does hammering working people? my right hon. Friend agree that while the recent extension of the grace periods for the movement of goods between The Prime Minister: We are proud of what we have Great Britain and Northern Ireland is welcome, it does been doing throughout the pandemic to look after not yet amount to a permanent fix of the Northern working people. We are proud of the extra £9 billion we Ireland protocol, which Lord Trimble suggests is inimical put in through universal credit. I think people in this to the Belfast agreement? Will my right hon. Friend House and across the country should know that Labour confirm that, in the continuing negotiations, the wants to scrap universal credit all together. We believe Government will draw the attention of the EU to in higher wages and better skills, and it is working. That the positive advantages of mutual enforcement, as is why we are investing in 13,500 work coaches and advocated in the recent excellent paper by the Centre for £3,000 a year for 11 million adults across this country to Brexit Policy? train under the lifetime skills guarantee, and it is working. For the first time since 2019, after years and years of The Prime Minister: Yes, and I thank both my right stagnation, wages are rising for the lower paid. Labour hon. Friend and the Centre for Brexit Policy for their believes in welfare; we believe in higher wages and analysis. It is good that the interim period has been higher skills and better jobs. extended, because clearly, the protocol, as it is being applied by our friends in the EU, is not, in my view, Keir Starmer: Higher wages and higher skills, the protecting the Belfast/Good Friday agreement as it should in all its aspects. We must sort it out. Prime Minister says.How out of touch he is! [Interruption.] Conservative Members laugh. What do they say to Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): Rosie, because Rosie is the sort of person that this Yesterday, without consultation, the Prime Minister impacts on? Laugh away. A single mother working on announced plans to impose a regressive Tory poll tax the minimum wage in a nursing home, she got in touch on millions of Scottish workers. The Joseph Rowntree with me. She will lose £87 a month due to the universal Foundation estimates that around 2 million families on credit cut—a huge amount to her. She will now also be low incomes will now pay an average of an extra £100 a hit with a national insurance tax rise. She has asked for year because of the Prime Minister’s tax hike. Yet again, more shifts and she cannot get them. She is unable to the Tories are fleecing Scottish families, hitting low and get further help with childcare. What does the Prime middle-income workers and penalising the young. A Minister—what does the laughter—say to Rosie? former Tory Work and Pensions Secretary called it a This is a Government who underfunded the NHS for “sham”. A former Tory Chancellor has said this is the a decade before the pandemic, took £8 billion out of poor subsidising the rich. A former Tory Prime Minister social care before the pandemic, and then wasted billions has called this “regressive”. Prime Minister, is it not the of pounds of taxpayers’ money on dodgy contracts, case that this Tory tax hike is once again balancing the vanity projects and giveaways to their mates. They cut books on the backs of the poor and the young? stamp duty on second home owners, gave super tax deductions for the biggest companies and now they are The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman says telling millions of working people that they must cough there was no consultation. Actually, I much enjoy my up more tax. Is this not the same old Tory party, always conversations with representatives of the Scottish putting their rich mates and donors before working Administration. One thing they said to me was that people? they wanted more funding for the NHS. I am delighted that we are putting another £1.1 billion into the NHS in The Prime Minister: Very sadly, Mr Speaker, what Scotland, while all they can talk about is another you are hearing is the same old nonsense from Labour, referendum. That is a clear distinction between us and because they want to scrap universal credit. I have every the Scottish nationalist party—about what are the real sympathy for Rosie and I admire her and families up priorities of the people of this country. and down the land, but the best thing we can do for them is have a strong and dynamic economy. As I Ian Blackford: That was no answer to the question, speak, our economy is the fastest growing in the G7, because the facts are that this is a tax hike on the poor because we have had the fastest vaccine roll-out and the and on the young. You should be ashamed of yourself, fastest opening up of any comparable country. Never Prime Minister. forget that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would We now know the economic direction of this toxic have kept us in the European Medicines Agency; he Tory Government: we are going to see furlough scrapped, attacked the Vaccine Taskforce; and if we had listened universal credit cut and more tax hikes for the low-paid. to Captain Hindsight in July, we would not have the Let us be in no doubt: this is the return of the Tories’ fastest growing economy in the G7—we would still be austerity agenda. It is austerity 2.0. On this Prime in lockdown. [Interruption.] It is true. If we listened to Minister’s watch, the United Kingdom now has the him today, we would not be trying to fix the NHS worst levels of poverty and inequality anywhere in 299 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 300 north-west Europe, and in-work poverty has risen to carers as well, since they will no longer have the anxiety, record levels this century. More Tory austerity cuts will for instance, that their elderly loved ones could see the make this even worse. loss of all their possessions. What we are also doing for Scotland deserves better. There is clearly no chance carers is making sure that we invest, now, half a billion of a fair covid recovery under this Prime Minister and pounds in their training, in their profession to make under this Westminster Government. Is it not the case sure that they have the dignity and progression in their that the only way to protect Scotland from Tory cuts jobs that they deserve. and the regressive tax hikes is for it to become an independent country, with the full powers needed to Q11. [903350] Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Ind): Einion and build a fair, strong and equal recovery for the people of Elliw Jones from Mynydd Mostyn dairy in my constituency Scotland? have created a real buzz by offering a self-serve milk facility on their farm for the local community. Sadly, the The Prime Minister: Well, I do not think that that is local council has served them with an enforcement the right priority for this country or for the people of notice, which has led to almost 9,000 locals signing a Scotland. I will just remind the right hon. Gentleman of petition in support of them. Does my right hon. Friend the words of the deputy leader of the Scottish Government, agree that businesses that have done their best to survive who welcomed it when the Labour Government put up and diversify over this horrendous last year should be NI by 1p to pay for the national health service. He—this supported and not threatened by the local authority as is a guy called John Swinney—said: they do all they can to grow their business? “I am absolutely delighted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has now accepted that progressive taxation is required to invest in The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the health service in Scotland”.—[Scottish Parliament Official planning is a devolved matter, but what I can tell him Report, 18 April 2002; c. 8005.] and the House is that we have provided business with I mean, get your story straight! This is more cash for over £100 billion of support throughout the pandemic, people in Scotland; it is more investment for families in including 1.5 million bounce back loans to small and Scotland; it is good for Scotland and good for the whole medium-sized enterprises such as the one that he describes. of the United Kingdom. Q2. [903341] Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): At a time of Q9. [903348] Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stamford) widespread concern about the HGV driver crisis, I have (Con): The growing populations of Grantham and been contacted by a number of drivers from Stamford require a long-term integrated healthcare strategy. Ceredigion who believe that the decision to increase Can the Prime Minister confirm what action the their hours will fail to solve the problem. It is clear to Government are taking to implement regular reviews of them that a long-term solution requires improved healthcare provision to meet the future needs of my working conditions, action on the 2018 Government constituency? report on parking spaces and driver facilities, and measures to reduce waiting times at distribution The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is quite right; he centres. Will the Prime Minister consider those is a great advocate for the people of Grantham and proposals, and to what timescale are his Government Stamford. The Health and Care Bill will ensure that working to fix the crisis? there are integrated healthcare partnerships, bringing together local authorities and local healthcare, but there The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for is more to be done, and that will be done in the forthcoming giving me notice of his question. We are working White Paper. with industry to get more people into HGV driving, which is a great and well-remunerated profession, by, Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): Yesterday’s for instance, ramping up vocational test capacity and social care plan forgot family carers, yet we are the funding apprenticeships for people training to be lorry millions wiping bottoms and washing and dressing our drivers. As the House heard earlier, the career structure loved ones, whether they are elderly or disabled, ill or of HGV drivers is affecting countries throughout the dying. We carers just want a fair deal, so will the Prime European Union. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman Minister raise the carer’s allowance? Will he guarantee take up his proposals directly with my right hon. Friend proper breaks for carers? Will he change employment the Secretary of State for Transport. law so that we can balance caring with work? Will he ensure that there are enough professional carers to help, Infrastructure for Businesses: Weymouth starting with a new visa for carers? We carers have a lifetime of ideas to improve our loved ones’ care, so why does the Prime Minister keep ignoring us and taking Q15. [903354] Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): What carers for granted? steps he is taking to improve infrastructure in order to attract more businesses to Weymouth. The Prime Minister: I certainly acknowledge, and I think the whole House acknowledges, the massive debt The Prime Minister: This Government are committed that we owe to unpaid carers such as the right hon. to levelling up the whole country, and Dorset is no Gentleman. Up and down the country, we thank them exception. I am delighted that the local growth fund in for what they are doing. What the plan means is that Dorset has contributed £98.4 million to 54 projects there will be a huge injection of support, both from the since 2015, and I understand that Dorset Council has private sector and from the Government, into caring also made a bid through the levelling-up fund to improve across the board. I believe that that will support unpaid access at Weymouth station. 301 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 302

Richard Drax: As a former soldier, I know that time is so will he please set out his understanding of the plight never wasted on reconnaissance. May I ask my right of the working poor, and explain what he meant when hon. Friend to come and get some good Dorset sea air, he said that they should visit Weymouth and see the infrastructure for himself? “see their wages rise by their own efforts”? Until we improve it, we cannot attract the investment, jobs and prosperity that we so desperately need, in an The Prime Minister: I think everybody sympathises ancient seaside resort that needs a bit of love, attention with people who are on low incomes, whom we have and Government money. tried to protect throughout the pandemic. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor brought forward a package The Prime Minister: I can think of nothing nicer than that was recognised around the world as being almost a trip to Weymouth, which I think was the favourite uniquely progressive in the way it directed funding and watering hole of George III—or so I am told by the support to the lowest paid and the neediest. That was Lord Chancellor. I will do my utmost to oblige my hon. quite right, but we are also now trying to ensure that we Friend. have a high-wage and high-skilled jobs-led recovery, and that is what is happening. I am proud to be a Conservative Prime Minister who is seeing wages for Q3. [903342] Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) the lowest paid rising at their fastest rate for many (Lab): A constituent of mine spent hours waiting to get years. through to someone on the Government-issued telephone number for non-British nationals in Afghanistan. Distressed James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): This is, I think, and fearful for his family, he was relieved when he the first opportunity for the whole House to thank all eventually spoke to someone. However, when the person those who have played a role in rolling out the superb he spoke to thought he had hung up, he overheard them vaccine programme over the past six months or so, laughing and saying to a colleague, “We are having to ranging from the whole of the national health service to lie to people; we are giving them false hope; the whole the military. If I may, I should like to make particular thing is a complete scam.” Is it the Foreign Secretary, mention of the Order of St John—St John Ambulance—of the Defence Secretary, the Home Secretary or the Prime which I have the honour to be an honorary commander. Minister who is responsible for this scam? All parties in the House with an interest in St John will have an opportunity to thank its volunteers personally The Prime Minister: I think the whole country should if they would like to do so at a reception that I am be proud of what we have done to welcome people from hosting on the Terrace straight after PMQs today.Perhaps Afghanistan. Operation Warm Welcome continues, and you, Mr Speaker—and the Prime Minister and others—will as I speak, we have already received more than 15,000 honour us with your presence to thank the thousands of people from the Kabul airlift, the biggest exercise that volunteers who have done such superb work over the this country has undertaken. However, I am sorry to last six months. hear about the particular case that the hon. Lady has raised. May I ask her to send it directly to me, and I will The Prime Minister: I will indeed join my hon. Friend take it up? in thanking St John Ambulance for everything it has done. The volunteers have been fantastic and I have met Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): We have thousands many of them over the past 18 months who have done of illegal immigrants arriving on our shores every single an absolutely astonishing job. I do not think that I can month. When are we going to take some direct action, come to his reception, but I am sure it will be very well and send the boats straight back? attended. May I also take this opportunity to urge everybody in the country who has not yet had a vaccination and who is eligible for one to get it as soon as they can? The Prime Minister: I share the indignation and the frustration of my hon. Friend at the cruel behaviour of Q5. [903344] Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): Given the the gangsters, the criminal masterminds, who are taking Education Secretary’s net approval rating among Tory money from desperate, frightened people to help them supporters of minus 53, can the Prime Minister get to undertake a very, very dangerous journey across the his feet, put his hand on his heart and promise the channel. This is a perennial problem, but my right hon. country, this House and his own supporters that his Friend the Home Secretary is dealing with it in the best Education Secretary is the right person for the job and possible way, which is to make sure that they do not is up to the job? leave those French shores. We depend to a large extent on what the French are doing, but clearly, as time goes The Prime Minister: I think the whole House will on and this problem continues, we are going to have to recognise that the Education Secretary has done a heroic make sure that we use every possible tactic at our job in dealing with very difficult circumstances in which disposal to stop what I think is a vile trade and a we had to close schools during the pandemic. Never manipulation of people’s hopes. forget that the job of teachers and parents up and down the land would have been made much easier if Labour, Q4. [903343] Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) and the Labour leadership in particular, had had the (Alba): According to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, guts—and if the hon. Gentleman had had the guts—to my constituency is the fourth most affected by the cut say that schools were safe. in working tax credit and universal credit. It is impacting on families who are working in multiple Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): Does jobs. A thousand pounds may only just cover the cost my right hon. Friend agree that our constituents, including of a single roll of wallpaper in the Prime Minister’s flat, mine in Hertford and Stortford, should come forward 303 Oral Answers 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Oral Answers 304 and see their GP if they have concerns about their The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises a very health, and that his statement yesterday should give important point. I will study the detail and ask the them assurance and confidence that this Government Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local are there for the NHS and that the NHS will be there for Government to take up the matter directly. them in their time of need? Q10. [903349] Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime Minister: Yes. That is why we are putting A working graduate who earns the average wage or in another £36 billion under the measures we are putting under, such as a newly qualified nurse, will face a forward tonight, and I am absolutely astonished that marginal tax rate of almost 50% under the plans the the party of Nye Bevan has confirmed today that it is Prime Minister is bringing in today. Is this not yet not going to vote for that. We want GPs to be seeing the another example of the Conservative party asking those right people at the right time, and we want to fix the on lower incomes to pay more so that his privileged waiting lists. That is the objective of the measures that friends have to pay less? we are bringing forward. The Prime Minister: No. As I have said, households in the top 20% of income pay 40 times more than the Q6. [903345] Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): poorest. And pay for nurses is exactly what this measure Funding for organisations helping vulnerable or hard- funds, which is why it is so astonishing that the hon. to-reach citizens with the EU resettlement scheme is Gentleman and his party are determined to vote against due to end at the end of this month. My own it tonight. constituent tried to get assistance from the local citizens advice bureau in March, but the funding cuts Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): This Friday meant that it could not help him. He has been unable my private Member’s Bill, the Asylum Seekers (Return to get support from the resolution centre either, and to Safe Countries) Bill, will have its Second Reading. has now been refused settled status. Can I ask the The intention is that an asylum seeker who comes to Prime Minister what practical support will be provided this country from a safe country will be returned to that to EU citizens still navigating this system, and what he country. The Bill would end the problem of people would advise my constituent to do to ensure that he has coming across the channel. Will the Prime Minister the right to stay in his home of 47 years? urge his colleagues to vote for the Bill on Friday?

The Prime Minister: I am of course sorry to hear The Prime Minister: Wehave introduced the Nationality about the troubles that the hon. Lady’s constituent is and Borders Bill, which will make it no longer possible experiencing, but I remind her that under the EU settlement for the law to treat somebody who has come here scheme we have helped almost 6 million people to illegally in the same way as someone who has come here settle in this country, which is double the number that legally. It is high time that distinction was made, and was expected at the time of the Brexit referendum. That that people understand there is a price to pay if they is a tribute to the compassion of this country and its come to this country in an illegal fashion. willingness to help those who come here and make their lives here. Several hon. Members rose—

Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): St Francis tower in Ipswich Mr Speaker: Order. Can I just say that there is some has been a beneficiary of the building safety fund. disappointment that we did not get through the list? I However,Oander and Block Management, which manage appeal to the party leaders to see whether we can speed the building, have shrink wrapped the entire tower and up so that we can hear from those Members who might it will be on the building for up to 12 months. Many otherwise miss out. desperate tenants are living in darkness for 12 months, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, and bars have been put on the windows so that they can Mr Speaker. barely be opened. Does the Prime Minister agree that, yes, this vital Mr Speaker: No. Points of order do not come now, work needs to take place but that we need balance and they normally come after the urgent question. You that we need to do this quickly for the lives and mental know that better than anybody. You are the expert. You health of the desperate people in that tower right now? are Mr Protocol. You know better than me. 305 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Covid Vaccine Passports 306

Covid Vaccine Passports “We do know that 60% of people who have had two jabs will not become infected with the Delta variant and therefore cannot infect someone else, although 40% will and can.”—[Official Report, 12.37 pm 6 September 2021; Vol. 700, c. 75.] Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD) The 40% figure highlights one of the biggest dangers of (Urgent Question): To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the whole idea: taking people into large social gatherings Office, if he will make a statement on the Government where they think they will be safe from infection but in plans for covid vaccine passports. fact they are not. The Minister will know that there will The Minister for Covid Vaccine Deployment (Nadhim always be some who cannot be vaccinated, so if entry to Zahawi): Our vaccination programme has given this nightclubs or events is to be dependent on demonstrating nation a wall of protection against this deadly virus. vaccination, those people will be excluded. So can he Data from Public Health England estimates that two doses tell the House: what assessment have the Government of a covid-19 vaccine offers protection of around done with regard to their duties under equalities legislation? 96% against hospitalisation and that our jabs have A study by the Night Time Industries Association found prevented over 100,000 deaths,over 143,000 hospitalisations that 69% of its members view the introduction of vaccine and around 24 million infections. It is this protection passports as having a negative impact on business, and that allowed us to carefully ease restrictions over the 70% said they were not necessary for opening their past few months. However, we must do so in a way that business. Why are the Government not listening to the is mindful of the benefits that both doses of the vaccine experts in the industry? When will nightclubs and other can bring. businesses be told how will they be expected to check On 19 July, the Prime Minister announced that the vaccine status of their patrons? What legal authority will they have to do that and what will the consequences “by the end of September—when all over 18s will have had the chance to be double jabbed—we are planning to make full vaccination be for them if they do not do it? the condition of entry to nightclubs and other venues where large On 12 July, the Secretary of State for Health and crowds gather. Proof of a negative test will no longer be sufficient.” Social Care told the House: We will be confirming more details in due course.1 “As we move away from regulations, there will no longer be a This approach is designed to reduce transmission and legal requirement for any establishment to have covid vaccine serious illness. It is in line with the approach we have certification”.—[Official Report, 12 July 2021; Vol. 699, c. 32.] taken on international travel, where different rules apply When did that change and why? depending on whether someone has had both jabs. I would like to end by urging people to come forward to get the jab. Some 88% of people have had one jab and Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for the right hon. more than 80% of people aged 16 and over have now Gentleman’s questions and I will attempt to address had the protection of both doses. It is the best way to them. I will begin by saying to the House that no one in protect yourself, your loved ones and your community, this Government, and certainly not this Prime Minister—it so please come forward and join them, and make our is not in his DNA—wants to curtail people’s freedoms wall of protection even stronger. or require people to show a piece of paper before they enter a nightclub. The reason we are moving forward on Mr Carmichael: First, thank you, Mr Speaker, for this is that we have looked at what has happened in allowing me to ask this urgent question; as Big Brother other countries, where nightclubs were opening and Watch brings its campaign against vaccine passports to then shutting again, and opening and then shutting Westminster today, it is certainly timely. again, and we want to avoid that disruption and maintain The introduction of vaccine passports will have enormous sectors that can add to people’s enjoyment of life and practical implications for the literally thousands of dance, as was the case for the Chancellor of the Duchy businesses across the country that will be required to of Lancaster. We want them to be able to do that gather and to hold our data. It is on those aspects that sustainably. the answers are most urgently required from the The reason behind the end of September date, which Government—this must not be “in due course”, as the the right hon. Gentleman asked about, is that by then Minister has just said. The deadline for the implementation all 18-year-olds and above will have had the chance to of this scheme is now just three weeks away. We must have two doses. not, however, lose sight of the fact that a scheme of this sort opens the door to a major change in the relationship The right hon. Gentleman was quite right when he between the citizen and the state. Never before in peacetime quoted what I said to him at the Dispatch Box a few have a Government in this country controlled, in this days ago: 60% of people who are doubled vaccinated way, where we can go and with whom, and what to do. will not be infected and therefore will not spread the If the Government have concluded that this now has to infection, but 40% may do. The view of our clinical change, at the very least this House must have a chance experts is that the additional relative safety of people to make its voice heard and its views known. So when having to be doubled vaccinated before they can enter a will we get the vote that the Minister promised us before nightclub does begin to mitigate super-spreader events, the recess? which could cause us, in effect, to take a decision to The case for vaccine passports is riddled with close nightclubs, which we would not want to do. inconsistencies. Nightclubs have been open since July The right hon. Gentleman asked about the disruption and, notwithstanding recent events in Aberdeen, they to business; as he will know, this is a tried and tested have been relatively safe. If they are safe today for solution that has been used extensively throughout the people to enjoy responsibly, what do the Government Government’s events research programme. It requires expect to change between now and the end of the month? venues to check or scan the NHS covid pass, in the same On Monday the Minister told me at the Dispatch Box: way as nightclub bouncers check ID before entry. 1.[Official Report, 9 September 2021, Vol. 700, c. 4MC.] 307 Covid Vaccine Passports8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Covid Vaccine Passports 308

[Nadhim Zahawi] The NHS covid pass application currently allows individuals in England to either input a negative test The right hon. Gentleman asked about the equality result or complete a vaccine record. That is important impact assessment. I assure him that we conducted a for those who cannot, for legitimate medical reasons, full equality impact assessment and consulted widely to take the vaccine. Will the Minister explain why the understand the potential equality impact of covid status Government plan to drop the negative test option? Will certification. We spoke to ethicists and representatives they improve and keep available the NHS covid pass of disabilities, race and faith groups. The system allows application or will it be replaced or outsourced? both digital and non-digital proofs, to help to ensure Let me be crystal clear: we cannot support any potential access for all. Constituents who do not have a smartphone, covid pass scheme for access to everyday services. Can for example, can confirm their vaccine status by calling the Minister categorically assure me that no one will be 119 and getting proof via email or written letter. required to have a covid vaccination pass to access As I say, this is not something we do lightly; it is essential services? something to allow us to transition this virus from This Government have dithered, dawdled, and, as pandemic to endemic status. We are coming towards the some have said, dad danced away the summer. They winter months, when there will be upward pressure of have not planned or prepared, and they have not provided infections because of the return to school and winter. the reassurances or presented a clear path forward. UK Large gatherings of people, especially in indoor venues businesses have had a hell of an 18 months during this such as nightclubs, could add to that. The mitigation difficult pandemic. They need a proactive, supportive against that, to allow us to transition the virus from Government, and it is about time that Ministers worked pandemic to endemic status, is the booster programme towards that aim. that I hope we will embark upon later this month, after the final recommendations from the Joint Committee Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for on Vaccination and Immunisation. her opening words and for urging those who have not had a vaccine to come forward and be protected. She Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con): What a asked a number of important questions relating to this load of rubbish. I do not believe that my hon. Friend measure, including what it will achieve. She will know believes a word he just uttered, because I remember him that double vaccination was important for people to be stating very persuasively my position, which we shared able to travel, and the implementation of that was at the time, that this measure would be discriminatory. largely successful. We need to go further to make sure Yet he is sent to the Dispatch Box to defend the indefensible. that we recognise other vaccines from other countries We in this House seem prepared to have a needless fight around the world. Those vaccines need to be recognised over this issue. It is completely unnecessary. We all agree by the WHO, our regulator and other regulators to that people should be encouraged to have the vaccine, make it even easier for people who are double vaccinated and I again encourage everybody to do so, but to go to travel to the United Kingdom. The NHS in England, down this route, which is overtly discriminatory, will be Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland stands ready to utterly damaging to the fabric of society. continue that joint work, as does NHSX in terms of the technology. Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, The hon. Lady asked about people’s access to essential who has made his view clear to me on many occasions. settings, which is incredibly important. I can assure her It pains me to have to take a step like this, which we do that some essential services will not require people to not take lightly, but the flipside to that is that if we do show covid vaccine certification. They include settings not and the virus causes super-spreader events in nightclubs that have stayed open throughout the pandemic, such and I have to stand at the Dispatch Box and announce as public sector buildings, essential retail, essential services to the House that we have to close the sector, that would and, of course, public transport. be much more painful to me. She also asked what certification will achieve domestically. Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab): I thank I hope that, combined with the vaccination programme, the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland the booster programme and all the work that we have (Mr Carmichael) for bringing this important topic to done around education, we will be able to transition the House. this virus, post winter, from pandemic to endemic status. The reason for this very difficult decision is that it I associate myself with the Minister’s opening remarks allows us to sustain the opening of the economy,including regarding vaccine uptake. It is incredibly important that the nightclub sector, without having to flip-flop, go people take up the vaccine where possible, and I reiterate backwards and close down sectors because of super- that from the Opposition Dispatch Box. spreader events. The chief medical officer, Chris Whitty, We are weeks away from implementation, but while tells us that in absolute terms. As I said earlier, if people Ministers were relaxing over the summer, there was no are double jabbed, only 60% will not be infected by the clarity from the Government about these plans. Businesses virus and therefore not spread it, but 40% could be remain anxious. Our priorities are clear: to protect the infected. In relative terms, putting that downward pressure NHS and our economy. We absolutely cannot be faced on infection rates is important in that journey towards with an unmanageable winter crisis for both. My first transition from pandemic to endemic. question to the Minister is really simple: what does he think this will achieve? How and when will the UK Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): I have to Government decide which businesses must implement say that I agree with the Chairman of the Public vaccine certification, and will they rely on low-paid staff Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, at venues to act as public health officials, and what my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg). support will they be getting? The Minister set out earlier this year that this policy 309 Covid Vaccine Passports8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Covid Vaccine Passports 310 was discriminatory. He was right then and that remains NHS in Wales, Northern Ireland and, of course, England. the case. It is a discriminatory policy. The vaccines are He raises an important point about essential services. In fantastically effective at reducing hospitalisation and the process of parliamentary engagement and scrutiny, death. They are very much less effective in reducing we will be able to share the detail of that in due course. transmission of the Delta variant. This is a pointless policy with damaging effects. I am afraid that the Minister Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I is picking an unnecessary fight with his own colleagues. pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister, who is I say to him that the Government should think again. defending a policy that I do not think his heart is truly The Leader of the House has been clear that we do not in. May I ask him a technical question? If a fake vaccine believe—the Government do not believe—that this policy passport is used, who will bear responsibility? Will it be is necessary for us to meet here in a crowded place. Let the venue, the person who checked it, or the individual us not have one rule for Members of Parliament and who used the fake passport? Who will police it? Will we another rule for everybody else. Drop this policy. be asking our local police, our local authority or some other agency? Nadhim Zahawi: My right hon. Friend asks about my previous position. I addressed it a few days ago from Nadhim Zahawi: My right hon. Friend asks an important this Dispatch Box. Back in January and February, we question. When I or a Minister from the Cabinet Office did not have the level of evidence on the Delta variant, stands at the Dispatch Box and shares the detail of the which he mentioned. That variant is far more infectious—it implementation, we will address that issue in full. requires only a few particles of Delta for a person to be Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): infectious. Let me repeat the data that I cited earlier: The Night Time Industries Association and others have 60% of people who are double vaccinated will not be expressed concerns about the practical implementation infected by Delta and therefore will not spread it, but of this policy. As the Minister has highlighted, those 40% could be infected and then spread it. questions remain and need to be answered quickly. Will As for the policy being discriminatory, there will, of the Minister also publish clear guidance on which events course, be exemptions—for example, in exceptional and venues will require a covid passport? There will also circumstances where a clinician recommends vaccine be increased costs for businesses at a time when they are deferral, where that vaccine is not appropriate, and recovering, so will they also be getting extra funding, where testing is also not recommended on clinical grounds. and when will that be announced? Then there are those who have received a trial vaccine, including those who have been blinded or given a placebo Nadhim Zahawi: Absolutely,we will issue clear guidance as part of the formally approved covid vaccine trials in about venues. Nightclubs are a particular concern when the United Kingdom. it comes to evidence from other countries of super-spreader This is not something that we enter into lightly, but it events, but, absolutely, we will do that. is part of our armoury to help us transition over the winter months from pandemic to endemic status. I hope Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Isn’t to be able to stand at this Dispatch Box very soon after the super-spreader event the spread of illiberal, that and be able to share with the House that we do not discriminatory and coercive policies from this Dispatch need to do this any more as we will be dealing with the Box? virus through an annual vaccination programme. Nadhim Zahawi: It pains me to have to stand at the Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I pay tribute to Dispatch Box and implement something that goes against all those involved in the vaccination programme. It has the DNA of this Minister and his Prime Minister, but been extraordinary. In Scotland, we have 4.1 million we are living through difficult and unprecedented times. adults with a first dose and almost 4 million with a As one of the major economies of the world, our four second dose, which means that north of 90% of all nations have done an incredible job of implementing adults have had at least one dose. It is a fantastic result the vaccination programme. This is a precautionary across the UK since last December, but the pandemic is measure to ensure that we can sustainably maintain the not over. Lives are still at risk and the pressures on the opening of all sectors of the economy. NHS are very real, so we in Scotland are introducing a Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I almost feel vaccine passport, but, broadly, it will be limited to sorry for the Minister because he really is struggling to nightclubs, outdoor standing events with more than defend this policy. However, he has failed to answer the 4,000 people and any event with more than 10,000 people. fundamental question posed by my right hon. Friend While the rules in England may be slightly different, I the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) hope that they are as proportionate as that. about this deeply illiberal, discriminatory and unnecessary May I go back to the issue of essential services? It is policy: will this House get a vote on the implementation not enough simply to say that a person will not need a of covid vaccine passports—yes or no? vaccine passport to get an essential service. It has to be any setting where a person’s attendance is unavoidable— Nadhim Zahawi: There will be appropriate parliamentary shops, public transport, medical services and education. scrutiny, as I have said today and in the past. We need the confirmation that no setting where a person’s attendance is unavoidable will require a vaccine Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): I fear that my hon. passport. Friend is on a sticky wicket. Let me point out to him that, if people have had covid but have not had any Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman vaccinations, they will not get the passport that he is for his excellent citation of the vaccine success in Scotland. proposing and therefore will not be allowed into nightclubs. NHS Scotland has done a tremendous job, as has the We are a proud, liberal party in that we believe in 311 Covid Vaccine Passports8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Covid Vaccine Passports 312

[Karl McCartney] Nadhim Zahawi: I agree with my hon. Friend that there is a very strong libertarian argument and not one freedoms; whatever happened to a laissez-faire attitude? with which I would disagree. This is a difficult and Nightclubs have been open since July. My hon. Friend important decision. As he says, we are still not in a place has not closed them yet. There is no need for a vaccine where I can stand here and say, hand on heart, that we passport. have transitioned this virus and that it is no longer a pandemic. That is why we are having to take this Nadhim Zahawi: That is an important question. My decision. I slightly disagree with his latter point; public hon. Friend is quite right that nightclubs have been buildings should obviously remain accessible and open open since July. The end of September date was chosen to all without these passports, because there are relative deliberately to allow over-18s to have the opportunity measures that we can take to allow us the additional to be double vaccinated. On people who may have had protection as we head towards the booster programme. covid and not had the vaccine, there is evidence—for example, on the beta variant—that it can be much more Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Mr Speaker, I am harmful to people unless they get vaccinated. I urge feeling sheepish about earlier; my apologies—touché. people who have had covid and recovered to get the This is just nonsense. I am 100% in favour of vaccination vaccine, get double jabbed and get protected. and 100% opposed to vaccine passports. There is no legal definition of what a nightclub is, as opposed to a Mr Speaker: Let us hear from the former voice of the place where other people might be bouncing up and DJs of the north—Jeff Smith. down, and shouting at one another across a Chamber in Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): Thank a room of 500 people. There is no legal definition that you, Mr Speaker. As somebody who worked in nightclubs the Minister is going to be able to rely on. The Government for 25-plus years, let me tell the Minister that this is a will effectively be turning bouncers on the door into recipe for chaos on the doors of nightclubs. As my hon. legal officers, who will be deciding whether somebody Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema has had a placebo or not. This is for the birds. We can Malhotra) said—and as I said to the Minister the other relieve the Minister of all his pain; he just has to say day—the Night Time Industries Association has said that he has thought again and he is not going to do it. that this will cripple the industry. This industry has been Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful to the hon. Member massively hard hit and it relies on walk-up trade; this is for his question. Bouncers will not have to decide if going make it impossible for nightclubs to run. someone has had a placebo or not, because anyone who Let me ask the Minister two questions. First, how has been on a trial will be deemed to be vaccinated and does he define a nightclub, as opposed to a late bar with will receive their certificate. a DJ playing music? Secondly, there is no rationale for this—as the hon. Member for Lincoln (Karl McCartney) Chris Bryant: Even though they’re not? said, nightclubs have been open for weeks—so why close them now? Why require vaccine passport for Nadhim Zahawi: I said this at the Dispatch Box nightclubs, as opposed to other crowded indoor venues, before recess. Actually, the Secretary of State took to such as the Chamber and the voting Lobby of the the World Health Organisation a plea to the rest of the House of Commons? world that people in trials should be considered fully vaccinated, whether they have had the placebo or otherwise, Nadhim Zahawi: That is an important question. As I in order to encourage them to come forward for vaccine said earlier, part of the trials gave us the confidence that trials. I repeated that today. It will not be an issue for we can do this and do it well. These passports have nightclub bouncers. already been implemented for international travel and other countries in Europe have them for nightclubs. We Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): The think this is the right thing to do to help us transition measures presented by the Minister todayare unsupportable the virus from pandemic to endemic status. We will be because they are bereft of any rationale. I ask him to coming forward with the details for parliamentary scrutiny think carefully about whether this Government wish to in due course. take powers that were deemed to be emergency powers and make them the normal powers of a Government in Mr Speaker: I call the voice of pirate radio—Michael a free society. I, for one, think that that is extremely Fabricant. unwise and that there is no case for this. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Thank you, Nadhim Zahawi: I agree with my hon. Friend that the Mr Speaker. Although I understand the libertarian times that we are enduring are not normal. This is a argument regarding this policy and the very good points measure that we are having to take. As he will hear from put forward by the right hon. Member for Orkney and our chief medical officers in England, Scotland, Wales Shetland (Mr Carmichael), is it not the prime duty of and Northern Ireland, this is a mitigation to allow us to any Government to protect their own population, whether continue to transition this pandemic over the winter in peace or war? And in many ways, are we not in a months and not have to reverse our policies. I say, with unique war with this virus? The passport is easily available. a heavy heart, that I would much rather stand here and I have it on my iPhone now, although it shows my date take from colleagues arrows in the back—or in the of birth, which I would rather it did not do. I certainly front—than come back to this House and have to close agree, by the way, that if we want equality, we should be down nightclubs because the virus has caused a super- using these passports to get access to this Chamber, spreader event. I do not want to have to explain that to because it is also a crowded place. Will not the vaccine the whole industry, because it would be much more passport also encourage more people to get double detrimental to businesses to have to open and shut vaccinated? them, and open and shut them again. 313 Covid Vaccine Passports8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Covid Vaccine Passports 314

Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) in Vauxhall is having to open and shut, and open and (Lab): The Minister cannot underestimate how much shut again. The reason for this policy is to sustain their freedom has been limited for those with medical exemptions. ability to trade, and hopefully trade profitably. I have heard from some of my constituents that they feared even leaving the house. The idea that they will see Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): I think those freedoms limited again is abhorrent, so how can we all agree that vaccine take-up among the young is the Minister ensure that the medically exempt will not essential. What additional incentives can you offer the have further restrictions on their freedoms because of young people I work with on Hurst Farm, a social his vaccine passport plan? housing estate in Matlock, to take up the vaccine? Nadhim Zahawi: Young people have been coming Nadhim Zahawi: We have spent a lot of time, energy forward in droves to be vaccinated. We have walk-in and resource on ensuring that those with medical centres all around the country where people do not even exemptions, who have underlying medical conditions, have to book an appointment. There have been many were prioritised in both category 4 and 6 of phase 1 of different ideas for incentivisation of young people. The the vaccination programme, as the hon. Member will great incentive, I hope, is to protect themselves, their recall. The Joint Committee on Vaccination and families and their community, but also to enjoy the Immunisation has gone further for the immunosuppressed. freedoms that come with double vaccination. As I said earlier, there will be exemptions from this particular set of rules for people who, for whatever Mr Speaker: Can I just say that I will not be giving reason, cannot be vaccinated or cannot have a test for any incentives? When the hon. Lady said “you”, it medical conditions. meant me, and I definitely do not want to do that. Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con): Will my hon. Friend John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): As the Minister has confirm that the duration of these passports, whether indicated, many countries are already introducing checks they are passed by the Government or it is done by a in hospitality and entertainment venues, and a large vote, would only last as long as it is considered that the number of our own citizens are visiting them on holiday, United Kingdom was in a pandemic state, not an endemic showing vaccine passes issued free by Her Majesty’s state, in terms of the disease? Will he also set out when Government and having already undergone checks at that transition happens so that we can judge and understand airports. I have been arguing since February for the it for ourselves? introduction of vaccine passes in order to save venues and jobs. To ensure that they can stay open, will he now Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s cut through the hysteria and get on with it? thoughtful question. There is great difficulty with knowing at what stage we feel confident that the virus has transitioned Nadhim Zahawi: Yes. from pandemic to endemic. We have now entered a Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): On Sunday, I period of equilibrium with the virus because of the joined dozens of volunteers for a thank you event with success of the vaccination programme. The upward Medicare Pharmacy for the 58,000 jabs that it has pressure on infections is obviously schools going back. delivered to local people this year. What more, though, The downward pressure on infections will be the booster can the Minister do to encourage—I stress the word programme and mitigating policies like the one we are “encourage”—those who are still to have their jab to debating. The Government certainly do not see this as a come forward and do so? long-term power grab to restrict people’s liberties. Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): I feel I work. He has been a champion of the vaccination should try to help the Minister by thanking him for the programme and I am grateful to Medicare Pharmacy. regular briefings on vaccination uptake over the recess, We continue to have pop-ups at universities and walk-ins which was very helpful to me in terms of encouraging a around the country, and incentives to young people to number of people from the BME communities to take get vaccinated. We also continue to redouble our efforts up the vaccine. However, this policy is not going to to keep the vaccine evergreen for those who have not yet work in Vauxhall. A number of businesses that have had their first dose. been hampered over the last 18 months want to get back. A number of those businesses are fearful of the Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): Last week, I looming rent increases for private commercial tenants. spoke to a constituent who is a widow with four children A number of businesses are fearful about the backlog of and has been working for the NHS on the frontline business rates that they have to pay. We are now probably throughout the pandemic. One of her children has a going to ask those same businesses to pay to implement range of very complex needs that can only be met by this policy. I want to go back to the issue raised by my full-time residential care, and there is only one setting in hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema the entire country that can meet his particular needs. Malhotra): what funding will be available to those She has been told that it cannot take him because of a businesses and when will they receive it? shortage of care staff, and that the particular difficulty in recruiting at the moment is the requirement for care Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s staff to have had two jabs. As the right hon. Member for kind words about the engagement that we have maintained Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is no longer in his throughout the vaccine deployment programme. We place, highlighted, the vaccine does not prevent infection will continue to do so, by the way, as we enter the or the spread of covid. So why, given the crisis in booster programme, which, in some weeks, will hopefully recruitment of care staff, do we still have this requirement break all records that we set in phase 1 of the vaccination for two jabs when it is not effective and is depriving programme. I think what is more detrimental to businesses vulnerable people of the care they need? 315 Covid Vaccine Passports8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Covid Vaccine Passports 316

Nadhim Zahawi: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I roll-out, so will he please protect our civil liberties and wish to reiterate that what she said is inaccurate in the say no to vaccine passports? sense of the vaccines not preventing infection. Sixty per cent. of people who are double-vaccinated will not be Nadhim Zahawi: I hope that when my hon. Friend infected and therefore cannot spread the virus, but 40% pauses and reflects on what we will be bringing forward, can. This is an important measure. We have a duty of she will see that it is that it is much better for the care to those most vulnerable in care homes in ensuring nightclub industry to be able to open sustainably while that the staff are double-jabbed, and they have until we get through the next few months. The winter months 11 November to do that. are going to be tough and challenging not just for covid but also for flu. It is a far better option to listen to the Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con): Make no mistake: clinical advice of the CMOs and implement something vaccine passports will create a two-tier society with the that is difficult for me to do, and goes against everything hospitality industry having to police an unethical policy I believe in, but nevertheless is the right thing to do. that will hammer its recovery. Given the Government’s own words that we need to live with this virus, will my Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con): We have a whole hon. Friend confirm how long vaccine passports will be summer’s worth of data from the events research in place—if passed by this House? programme that shows how organisers of events such as the British grand prix at Silverstone in my constituency had to meet extreme costs to put in the planning and the Nadhim Zahawi: We will set out in detail in due checking of vaccine passports at the gate. Before this course exactly how the vaccine pass will work for domestic policy is put to a vote in this House, will my hon. Friend use: for example, in nightclubs. commit to publishing the data on the cost to business of vaccine passport checks through the events research Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister programme, so that we can be fully apprised of the cost for all the hard work he does and for answering these of this policy? very difficult questions. It would seem that each region of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Nadhim Zahawi: My hon. Friend’squestion is important Ireland has differing versions of the system in relation and is one that we will be looking at. Suffice to say, as I to offering vaccine passports, and that confuses people mentioned earlier,the events research programme certainly whenever they read or hear it in the national news. gave us the confidence that people can deal with this What discussions have taken place with regional measure relatively easily. In the way that a nightclub Administrations on this issue? Are there any plans to bouncer can check ID, they can check covid vaccination standardise each region to have a one-size-fits-all UK status. strategy that people can understand and follow? Holly Mumby-Croft (Scunthorpe) (Con): Like many Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s across the House, I am instinctively wary of this idea. excellent question. I am very proud, as are the Ministers Will my hon. Friend give me a clear answer to a specific from the devolved Administrations, of the work we question: will right hon. and hon. Members receive a have done collectively on the vaccination programme, vote? For the avoidance of doubt, I am talking about a which we will continue to do for the booster programme. vote and not scrutiny of the policy. As he heard earlier, this is a devolved matter but we try to co-ordinate wherever possible and do the right thing Nadhim Zahawi: I have said that there will be together. parliamentary scrutiny around this, and we will be coming back and setting out in detail what that looks Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con): I congratulate the Minister like. and all those involved in the vaccination roll-out on Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con): I am four-fifths of over-16-year-olds now being double- flabbergasted, depressed and annoyed that we are even vaccinated. This Government have worked night and discussing this matter. It is absolutely wrong on a day to ensure that we have the testing capacity to test fundamental level. Putting to one side the practical over 1 million people a day, and many millions more implications of how it will be policed, more important with lateral flow tests as well. Surely a nightclub full of are the general data protection regulation implications people who have tested negative is safer than a nightclub of bouncers having medical data in their hands. What of people who are double-vaccinated. are we doing in regard to the data? Nightclubs have been open for over two months. Is there any data to Nadhim Zahawi: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s support this policy, because I do not think there is? championing of the vaccination programme. He raises an important point. One of the issues around lateral Nadhim Zahawi: The very strong advice from the flow tests is the risk of people fraudulently inputting chief medical officers—we have heard from our colleagues their test result, but also those are for a single excursion in Scotland, too—is that this will be an important whereas being double-vaccinated means that people can mitigating measure. It is something we do not do lightly. go and enjoy nightclubs as many times as they like. I completely understand my hon. Friend’s sentiment and emotion on this. In terms of the data presented, it Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): May I, on bended will be limited simply to the vaccine status and the knee, implore my hon. Friend to summon all his courage name of the individual. It can be on a smartphone, but and say no to vaccine passports to protect our civil if someone does not have one, it will be physical or liberties? He has been so courageous in the vaccine by email. 317 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Point of Order 318

Point of Order Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Further to that point of order, I reiterate and support what the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and the right hon. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) Mr Speaker, you will know that, last week, the Foreign have said. Last week, I had, as others have, constituents Secretary told the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs contact me on behalf of people who they served with in that he would be making sure that all MPs had direct Afghanistan. Last week, there were gun attacks on the responses to all the emails that we had sent to the houses of some of the people to whom the hon. Member Foreign Secretary, the Home Secretary and the Defence for Rhondda referred. I sent three urgent emails and Secretary about Afghans and those friends and relatives have hand-delivered letters this week. I do not want to of our constituents who have been caught in the situation embarrass anyone—it is not about that; it is about in Afghanistan. You will know, Mr Speaker, because getting the answers. May I just say that I would really you were in the Chair, that the Prime Minister repeated appreciate, as others would, having immediate, urgent that on Monday.He said that we would all have responses answers on those issues, because for these people it is a by the end of the day, and the Foreign Secretary then case of life or death? It is really important. Let us see if repeated that commitment later that day. Unfortunately, we can get the answers from Ministers. that just has not happened. In so far as there has been any response at all from the Government, it has been a Mr Speaker: It is quite right for Members to raise this single email from a junior Minister in the Foreign Office matter; it is very important. The fact is that commitments that says that we can go and look at a website. were made by the Government to deal with the issues and respond accordingly. MPs have a duty to pursue on I know that you, Mr Speaker, have said repeatedly behalf of constituents’ cases that are brought to them. that Ministers have to give proper, substantive answers, Wemight have been discussing this matter if the Opposition and I just hope that you might be able to speak to day had not been pulled. Given that it has, let me just Government Ministers. So many of our caseworkers, say to those on the Government Front Bench that it is for Members in all parts of the House, are in tears every not acceptable to make pledges that are not carried out, day because they are having so many cases brought to and in fact, if this continues, it may be that we need an them. On Monday, I mentioned three people out of the urgent question to discuss why we are not getting responses. 143 cases I have raised, one of whom has been shot, one That is not from one side; it is from both sides of the of whom has been raped and one of whom has been House.Ministers should reply to MPs.They are accountable tortured. We are all facing these things. I wonder whether to this House. I expect Ministers to reply accordingly there is anything you can do in your powers to make to MPs. sure that we get proper answers. We cannot just abandon BILL PRESENTED these people.

SOCIAL SECURITY (UP-RATING OF BENEFITS) Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): Further Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) to that point of order, very unusually I completely Secretary Thérèse Coffey, supported by the Prime concur with the hon. Gentleman. It is really unfair on Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Amanda our staff, let alone our constituents, that we cannot give Milling and Guy Opperman, presented a Bill to make them answers. This is the first time since I have been provision relating to the up-rating of certain social in the House that I have not been able to give them security benefits payable in the tax year 2022-23. the sort of answers that I would expect a Minister to Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time give. I have been a Minister myself in many different tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 158) with explanatory Departments, and I know this is difficult for the notes (Bill 158-EN). Department, but it is fundamentally also difficult for the families and loved ones and our staff, who cannot Mr Speaker: We now come to the ten-minute rule give them the truth. Bill. I hope your mum is ready, Jonathan. 319 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Multi-Academy Trusts (Ofsted 320 Inspection) Multi-Academy Trusts (Ofsted Inspection) that all schools will become academies. I am not against trusts expanding, but, where they are encouraged to do Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order so, it must be for the right reasons. No. 23) Numerous funds have been created to encourage 1.26 pm MATs to expand such as the regional academy growth fund and the trust capacity fund, but they have often Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con): I beg resulted in trusts expanding beyond their means, and to move, there is no formal way of assessing whether they are That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend section 5 of the best placed to expand. As the evaluation of the regional Education Act 2005 to provide that Ofsted may inspect the academy growth fund found, one MAT took on 10 schools governing bodies of Multi-Academy Trusts. in a year despite a previous annual growth rate of only Mr Speaker, you have may heard me mention only a two or three. There must be fairness, transparency and few times that I used to be a teacher and trade union accountability, because, as it stands, there is a glaring representative, but having proudly worked in academies inconsistency. in London and Birmingham—I also have a partner who works in the sector—for over eight years before entering Schools, including individual academies, and children’s this place, I firmly believe that the most important thing social services are inspected by Ofsted and the Care we can achieve is to give our children the very best Quality Commission inspects hospital trusts, so why are education. In my mind, there is no greater task that we multi-academy trusts not inspected, too? I worry that have as MPs, and there can be no better investment than that loophole risks creating a new group of education in our children’s futures. authorities that are unaccountable to teachers, parents and pupils. To have a fair and consistent system, MATs I know that as a teacher and a Conservative, I am a and their leadership teams need to be accountable in the bit of an outlier. There are not too many of us around, same way as teachers. although I am delighted to count my hon. Friends the Members for Bassetlaw (Brendan Clarke-Smith), for MATs at their best have been instrumental in turning Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) and for around failing schools. Having previously been placed North Devon (Selaine Saxby) among our ranks on in special measures, Whitfield Valley Primary Academy these Benches. in Fegg Hayes in my Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove The Conservatives’ record on education since 2010 is and Talke constituency is now rated “good” by Ofsted, a proud one. The proportion of schools rated as good and with “outstanding” leadership, since becoming part or outstanding by Ofsted has risen from 68% in 2010 to of the Inspirational Learning Academies Trust in 2015. 86% in 2020. Between 2011 and 2019, the attainment While that is a fantastic example of what trusts can gap between disadvantaged children and their wealthier achieve, sadly too many are not performing well. The peers narrowed by 13% at age 11 and 9% at age 16. In root of the problem is the accountability regime. 2019, 82% of year 1 pupils met the expected standard Over the years, there have been calls for change. for reading, compared with just 58% when the light-touch I thank the previous Education Committee, which in a phonics check was introduced. 2017 report found that there was a gap in assessing the The great Govian and Gibbian reforms have been key performance of MATs not fulfilled by either Ofsted or to that improvement, as a result of which almost 2 million regional school commissioners. In 2018, Ofsted trialled more children are now in good or outstanding schools a new approach to inspecting academies that involved a than in 2010. At the reforms’ heart has been the academy number of inspections of individual academies from a and free school programme, which has freed schools MAT taking place over a period of up to two terms. from local authority control, given parents more choice Following those inspections, Ofsted would visit the and granted schools more control over their curriculum, MAT’s head office to evaluate its effectiveness as a budgeting and staffing. Through those changes, we have whole. That move towards assessing the trust itself been able to drive up standards across the country. rather than simply looking at individual academies was Since 2010, the Government have invested in academy a shift in the right direction. However, as it stands, trusts to be the vehicle of school improvement. Over accountability measures remain heavily focused at school half of children are now educated in academies and level and do not reflect the top-heavy leadership style of 42% of schools are now academies.Some 84% of academies many MATs. are part of multi-academy trusts, or MATs, and as of To harness the power of MATs properly, we need to August last year, there were 1,180 MATs, covering look at their overall performance. I stress that my Bill is 7,680 academies between them. Of those, 70% oversee not about creating another layer of bureaucracy or six schools or fewer, and 38% run two or three schools. more hoops for teachers to jump through. It is about There are also a small number of big beasts that oversee adding accountability for the trustees of multi-academy 20 schools or more. trusts, and in my mind there should be no extra work Parents and teachers must have confidence in the for teachers. Through my Bill, the remit of Ofsted leadership of academy trusts. Over the years, various inspectors would be extended so that they must consider: scandals have appeared in the papers, such as trusts the achievement of pupils across schools covered by the paying for the lease of a new Jaguar for their chief multi-academy trust; the success of the multi-academy executive, trusts paying thousands for first-class travel trust in reversing educational underperformance; and and high-class hotel rooms, and even trusts paying for the quality of leadership, financial management and transatlantic flights. We regularly hear of trusts’ chief governance of the multi-academy trust. Bringing MATs executives getting huge salaries of £100,000 or £200,000— under the Ofsted inspection regime would ensure that and, in some cases, close to half a million pounds. I am they are playing their full role and, crucially, allow those a big supporter of the drive for academisation and hope truly doing excellent work to be recognised. 321 Multi-Academy Trusts (Ofsted 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 322 Inspection) As the “Lost Learning” report that I co-authored Business of the House (Today) with Onward and the New Schools Network earlier this Motion made, and Question proposed, year argued, we should be using multi-academy trusts That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall put the Questions “much more aggressively as the engine of school improvement”. necessary to bring to a conclusion proceedings on the Ways and Means resolution relating to the Health and Social Care Levy at We could hold them to account through the provisions 7.00pm, if not previously concluded; and those Questions shall of my Bill and assess them on their ability to turn include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker around underperforming schools. Inspections of MATs which may then be moved.—(James Morris.) would allow us to reward those that are well-performing 1.35 pm and incentivise the best MATs with generous funding to Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): We will be take on struggling schools. There could be no clearer debating an important issue today, and if the debate need for that, especially in the wake of the pandemic. had been on a Finance Bill, it could have gone until any If levelling up is to mean anything, it must mean that hour. I appreciate that we are debating a Ways and children in places such as Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove Means motion, but given the interest in it, the time and Talke can get the education that they need to go on could have been extended. Will the Minister explain to university, the skills they need to go on to an why he decided that the debate would stop at the apprenticeship, and a chance to make the most of their moment of interruption? talents and achieve their potential, no matter where in 1.36 pm the country they go to school. To do that, we need to Dame Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I rise to express unleash the power of the best trusts to transform children’s sympathy with the point made by the hon. Member for lives around the entire country. Ultimately, that is what Wellingborough (Mr Bone) about this dribbling out of the Bill is about. Budget announcements. These days, we have trinity In the wake of the pandemic, the Bill is needed now Budgets, not one Budget: we have Ways and Means more than ever. I am delighted that it has the support of motions when it suits the Treasury. The change of a broad selection of hon. Members from all sides of the behaviour on fiscal issues, Budgets and tax announcements House. I commend it to the House. in which the Government are indulging does not lead to decent policy making, and nor does it help Parliament Question put and agreed to. to hold the Government to account. Rather than the ongoing dribbling out of Budget and tax proposals Ordered, when it suits the Government rather than the House, let us get back to having one fiscal event and one Budget That Robert Halfon, Emma Hardy, David Simmonds, when the Red Book is published so that we can properly Dame Meg Hillier,David Johnston, Layla Moran, Brendan hold them to account. Clarke-Smith, Miriam Cates, Ian Mearns, Lee Anderson, Gareth Bacon and Jonathan Gullis, present the Bill. 1.37 pm Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Is there not another Jonathan Gullis accordingly presented the Bill. point? We already have remarkably weak control over Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on taxation and expenditure in this House. It is one of the Friday 28 January 2022, and to be printed (Bill 159). things that we do worse than nearly any other legislature in the UK or anywhere else in Europe and the rest of the world. Most other countries have a proper budget when they decide both expenditure and taxation at the same time. Surely the two should go together. What we have here, most extraordinarily, is a motion that was put on the Order Paper only yesterday, without any forewarning of a debate today. Surprise, surprise, as is the convention under our Standing Orders, nobody other than a Government Minister can table an amendment to increase or vary a tax or duty. We are therefore a completely hamstrung Parliament in which the Executive have excessive control over us. We should have had proper time to debate the motion and proper forewarning, but yet again, the Government are taking everything into their own hands. Question put and agreed to. 323 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 324

In order to pay for a significant increase in spending Ways and Means in a responsible and fair way, the Government have announced a new 1.25% health and social care levy Health and Social Care Levy based on national insurance contributions. This Ways and Means motion enables the Government to introduce Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I inform the the levy and temporarily to increase national insurance House that Mr Speaker has selected amendment (c) in contribution rates until it takes effect. the name of the official Opposition. I remind the House that, under the terms of the business of the House order Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): Will my of today, the amendment will be moved formally at the right hon. Friend tell the House how much the end of debate. 1.25% increase in national insurance will cost the NHS on top of its current payroll? 1.39 pm Jesse Norman: My hon. Friend will be aware that The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): public sector bodies have been adjusted for in the numbers I beg to move, that have been published, and therefore the numbers That provision may be made for, and in connection with, the that have been published are net of the impact on the following— public sector. (a) the imposition of a tax on earnings and profits in respect of John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I understand which national insurance contributions are payable, or would be payable if no restriction by reference to pensionable age were that for a couple of years this tax revenue goes to the applicable, the proceeds of which are to be paid (together with NHS, not to care, to get the waiting lists down. By how any associated penalties or interest) to the Secretary of State many will the waiting lists be reduced, and what is the towards the cost of health and social care but where expenses plan for using this money to actually cut them? incurred in collecting the tax are to be deducted and paid instead into the Consolidated Fund, and Jesse Norman: Of course, it is impossible to say in (b) increasing the rates of national insurance contributions for advance what the impact will be, but I would direct my a temporary period ending when the tax becomes chargeable and right hon. Friend to the remarks of the Institute for applying the increases towards the cost of the National Health Fiscal Studies where it said that Service. “based on detailed analysis to be published later this week…this Supporting health and social care in the aftermath of could be enough to meet the pandemic-related pressures on the a pandemic and amid the worst health crisis for 100 years, NHS.” laying the long-term basis for social care for generations I think that is a fairly— to come—there are few if any greater peacetime challenges for any Government, and that is why it is an honour to Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Will the Minister give be opening this debate today. way? As the House will know, yesterday the Prime Minister Jesse Norman: No. I have already taken a few, and I announced a plan to tackle the NHS backlog, put the will go on a bit further, if I may, and then I will take adult social care system on a sustainable long-term some more interventions. [Interruption.] Well, the hon. footing and end the situation in which those who need Gentleman has had a fairly substantial go at points of help in their old age risk losing everything to pay for it. order already, and I welcome his later intervention. The Government’s plan will make a difference to the The levy will apply UK-wide to taxpayers liable to lives of millions of people across this country, and it class 1 employee and employer, class 1A, class 1B and will be funded with a record £36 billion investment into class 4 self-employed NICs. However, it will not apply the NHS and social care. where taxpayers pay class 2 NICs or class 3 NICs. It will be introduced from April 2022, and then from April Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): What 2023 the levy will also apply to those working over the estimate has the Minister made of the impact of these state pension age. As my hon. and right hon. Friends measures on the ease or indeed the difficulty of securing will understand, it takes time for Her Majesty’s Revenue continuing NHS care? and Customs to prepare its systems for such a major shift. That is why, in 2022-23, the levy will be delivered Jesse Norman: That is an extraordinarily wide-ranging through a temporary increase in NICs rates of 1.25% for question, and there are many ways in which impacts one year only. All revenues generated by this increase could be assessed. My right hon. Friend will be aware will be ring-fenced and paid to NHS England, NHS that the Government will be bringing forward a social Scotland, NHS Wales and the equivalent in Northern care Bill, and there will be a Budget at which this Ireland. measure, fiscal measures in general and the wider consideration of the fiscal position will be considered. Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): Does In the documents published in relation to today’s debate, the Minister not recognise the burden he is placing on there is of course a sustainability analysis of the impact smallbusinesses,manyof whichtheGovernmentcompletely of the measure on different parts of the country, by excluded and failed to support during the pandemic, in background and socioeconomic income, and there is their now having to pay this extra levy, as opposed to also a substantial plan published by the Government in making a fair taxation system that falls on those who relation to the Health and Care Bill. can pay the most? Several hon. Members rose— Jesse Norman: The hon. Lady will be aware that, because of the employment allowance, the bottom 40% of Jesse Norman: If I may, I will just proceed a little bit businesses will pay nothing and the next 40% will pay further, and then I will be happy to give way. an average of £450. So this does not fall heavily on the 325 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 326 bottom end of businesses, and of course it comes in a The third reason why a levy based on NICs is the context in which the Government have provided over right approach is that it has worked elsewhere. France, £400 billion of support to business and to the nation as Germany and Japan have all increased social security a whole in the course of fighting the pandemic. In that contributions to fund social care provision. Finally, the sense it is, and it has been recognised to be by reputable question of how to fund health and social care is one independent commentators, a broad-based approach. that applies to a whole nation. NICs are set on a From April 2023, once HMRC systems have been UK-wide basis, and the levy therefore provides a clear updated, a formal legal surcharge of 1.25% will replace UK-wide solution. the temporary increase in NICs rates, which will return Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) to their previous level. Again, this revenue will be (Lab/Co-op): Would the right hon. Gentleman put on ring-fenced in law for health and for social care only. As the record for the House the consequentials for public the Chancellor stated yesterday, this levy is no stealth bodies that are employers? They would normally be tax. That is why the exact amount that each employee expected to pay this, but I understand there are some pays will also be visible as a separate line on their mitigations. Perhaps he could explain that, because in payslip. Finally, the levy will be administered by HMRC, the time we have had we have not been able to get to the and collected by the current reporting and collection bottom of it. procedures for NICs—pay-as-you-earn and income tax self-assessment. Jesse Norman: The overall fiscal approach is set out in detail in the document that has already been referenced Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I want to by the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts). ask the Minister: how much money is actually going to We will be presenting a Bill in due course, which will get to local authorities to deliver social care at the have further explanatory notes and a tax information frontline? Can I refer him to paragraph 36 of the and impact note associated with it, and of course we Government’s document, which we got yesterday? It have a Budget in which the wider fiscal position will says that £5.4 billion in adult social care will be provided become clear, so the House is not going to be short of from this levy, but that will be spent on the reforms that information about how this will land. are in the document. It also says that all the other Finally, if I may, I will just remind the House why this pressures on social care that local authorities have now, levy is so important. As the Prime Minister and the demographic and otherwise, will be paid for from council Chancellor set out yesterday, the levy will enable the tax and the social care precept, which is council tax by Government to tackle the backlog in the NHS. It will another name. So are we expecting the pressures on provide a new,permanent way to pay for the Government’s social care to be funded not from this document, but reforms to social care, and it will allow the Government actually from further rises in council tax? Is that the to fund our vision for the future of health and social honest situation? care in this country over the longer term.

Jesse Norman: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): I and I am also very grateful to him for actually reading thank the Minister for giving way. I have two points. He the document, which many of his colleagues may not talks about the Government’s vision for health and have done, and he is absolutely right to draw attention social care, but with their obsession with outsourcing, to that section. What the levy does, of course, is to that does not match the Scottish vision for health and provide a very substantial form of funding for social social care. This is a devolved area. Why is the Minister care. The question of the capacity of local authorities, not using tax, which the Scottish Government control? which is of course a matter of great interest to Government We have already been slagged for three years in this and an area that we have supported significantly in the place for putting a penny on income tax bands to fund last year or two, will be considered in the Budget in the health and social care in Scotland. Why is he hitting normal course of things. Scottish taxpayers again, and taking power away from the Scottish Government? If I may, I will now set out why a levy based on national insurance is the best way to raise the funds Jesse Norman: Nothing could be further from the needed for the Government’s plan for health and social truth. All parts of the UK need a long-term solution to care. The first reason is that there is already a clear fund this health and social care position sustainably, precedent. Indeed, in 2003 the then Labour Government including Scotland and the Scottish Government. Scotland’s increased these same NICs rates by 1% specifically to own Audit Scotland has said that more money is needed put more funding into the NHS. Within the NICs in the Scottish social care system, and an independent system there is, as Members across the House will review of adult social care said that more money needs know, already a long-standing ring-fenced proportion to be provided. Of course, there is a Union dividend of receipts directed to the NHS. from that policy, in that Scotland, Wales and Northern The second reason is that this is a fair method. Ireland will benefit by an average of 15% more than is Businesses will play their part. In fact, the largest 1% of generated by their residents. That is £300 million a year businesses will contribute 70% of the revenue. However, on average. existing NICs reliefs and allowances will also apply to The Government have acknowledged that this policy the levy. That will mean, as I have said, that 40% of all involves a breach of the manifesto. They have done so businesses will not be affected due to the employment directly, they have done so plainly, and they have done allowance. When it comes to individuals, those earning so honestly. But I would put it to the House that, in a more will pay more. Conversely, at least 6.2 million deeper sense, this measure serves to redeem a promise people earning less than the NICs primary threshold and discharge an obligation. It is a profoundly Conservative will not pay the levy at all. thing to do, to provide for future generations without 327 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 328

[Jesse Norman] of months later this bombshell on work to fund social care is a broken promise. It is unfair, and it is a tax on increasing our borrowing, without increasing spending, jobs. and in way that is sustainable and grips a nettle that for too many years has been ignored by the Labour party. Dame Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): My hon. Friend With that in mind, I commend the motion to the House. is making the right sort of points. Government Members do not like it, but they need to listen to it. Does she 1.52 pm agree that when the Prime Minister signed the guarantee on the tax lock in the 2019 general election campaign, Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): There are two tests he also told the country that he had an oven-ready plan for the package announced yesterday. First, does it fix for reforming social care, prior to the pandemic? He social care? Secondly, is it funded fairly? The answer to cannot have signed the tax lock, as well as having a plan both those questions is no. It is a broken promise, it is for social care, if one of those things was not exactly unfair, and it is a tax on jobs. At the general election less true. than two years ago, the Prime Minister said to voters: “Read my lips, we will not be raising taxes on income or VAT Rachel Reeves: I would go further than my hon. or national insurance.” Friend: neither of those things were true, because the The Chancellor of the Exchequer—I am not sure where Government have no plan for social care and we have a he is today—went further and solemnly said: tax increase. The sad truth at the heart of this so-called “Our plans are to cut taxes for the lowest paid through cutting health and social care levy is that it will not deliver on national insurance.” social care for at least three years from now, and even The Government have broken their legally binding promise then it is uncertain when the Government might allow on international development, they are breaking it again some money to trickle down. Under the Prime Minister’s on the triple lock, and the country is now littered with plan, many will still face the threat, as my right hon. and Tory broken promises torn from the election manifestos learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition set out of all Conservative Members—promises that they made today, of selling their home to fund care. Many of those to their constituents and their country. Promises used to with a house worth £186,000—that includes many count for something; today the Tory word, and guarantees constituents of Conservative Members—will still have from the Prime Minister, count for absolutely nothing to sell their home to fund £86,000, within the cap. That at all. is before the costs of living in a care home. How does the Minister expect his constituents to pay for care Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con) rose— without selling their home? I will happily take an intervention from him— Rachel Reeves: I will take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman, and perhaps he can tell us what he put Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con) rose— on his election leaflets. Rachel Reeves: Perhaps the hon. Member for Thirsk Paul Holmes: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way, and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) will explain what he put and I remind her that the Conservative party won on in his manifesto to his constituents. the basis of its election manifesto, and the Labour party Kevin Hollinrake: I was delighted to sit on the Housing, lost. In the interests of fairness and for the people of Communities and Local Government Committee—the this country who voted for her party, will she outline to Chair of the Committee is in his place now—during its the House what the Labour party’s plan is to fix social joint inquiry with the Health and Social Care Committee. care, because so far we have heard nothing? Some 24 Committee members, 12 of whom were Opposition Members, recommended a solution based Rachel Reeves: I will come on to that in a moment, on national insurance. The shadow Secretary of State but that sums it up. You went into the election with a set for Health and Social Care also proposes a solution of promises, and now you are breaking them one by based on national insurance. Why does the hon. Lady one. now say that that is the wrong option, and what is her Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order— plan if it is the wrong option? [Interruption.] Hon. Members should resume their seats. Rachel Reeves: We should be looking at all forms of This is an emotionally charged debate—I fully appreciate income, not just income from people who go out to that—but as Mr Speaker has pointed out, Members work. A landlord who rents out a number of properties must not use the word “you” unless they are referring to will pay nothing, whereas his tenants in work will. That the Chair. Please remember that. is not fair, and that is why we cannot support the motion this evening. The Minister told us three important Rachel Reeves: I will clarify: Conservative Members things today. are breaking their promises one by one by one. The Government will claim that that is all down to the Jesse Norman: Will the hon. Lady give way? pandemic, but in March this year—a year into the pandemic—theChancellorpromisedthatnationalinsurance Rachel Reeves: I would be very happy to. would not go up. He said, “this Government are not going to raise the rates of income tax, Jesse Norman: The hon. Lady has accused the national insurance or VAT…Nobody’s take-home pay will be less Government, who have published a plan, of having no than it is now”.—[Official Report, 3 March 2021; Vol. 690, c. 256.] plan, when in fact the Labour party has absolutely Another Tory promise up in flames. That was not nothing to offer on this topic. On the question she before the pandemic; it was a year into it, and a matter raises, the Resolution Foundation said in its report that 329 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 330 the cap will offer support that will recognise higher care costs but without any guarantee that they will get costs in different parts of the country, and the increased additional money to fund care. This is not a plan to fix generosity of the means test will have relatively more social care. impact in lower-wealth regions, in the north-east and There is no plan for care workers, who were underpaid other parts of the country. and undervalued before the pandemic—before being sent out on to the frontline by this Government without Rachel Reeves: With all respect to the Minister, I the personal protective equipment that they needed. asked how he would suggest that one of his constituents Some £8 billion was cut from social care by Tory with a house worth £186,000, and no other savings, will Governments in the years before the pandemic, ignoring pay £86,000 for their care without selling their home. It the rising demand, with care workers paid less than they is clear that he does not have an answer to that question, can live on. This Government are not interested in because there isn’t one. bringing employers and unions together for a positive plan for the future of social care. They are not interested Jesse Norman rose— in making the care sector a career of choice, with decent pay and conditions and proper investment in skills. Rachel Reeves: The Minister has had a chance and he We know that half a million care workers are needed did not manage it. I will take an intervention from my by 2030. There were 100,000 vacancies in social care hon. Friend. before the pandemic. That is only set to increase, with the GMB predicting 170,000 vacancies for care workers Chris Bryant: Seventy per cent. of my constituents by the end of the year—one in 10 jobs unfilled. Labour’s own their own home. The average house price in my plans will prioritise older and disabled people, shifting constituency is £98,000. My constituents on lower than the focus of support towards preventive early help, and average wages in the country will be asked to contribute our guiding principle will be “home first”, because that more in national insurance. Is it not manifestly unfair is what the overwhelming majority of people want. that they will still have to find £86,000, and the only place they will find that is out of the £98,000, so as to Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): Just a second ago at the fund millionaires in south-east England to pass on the Dispatch Box, the Minister referenced a plan. He was whole of their inheritance to their children? asked repeatedly by those on the Government Benches how this money will be spent, and in response to every Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend makes the point very one of their interventions he said, “Wait for the forthcoming well. People will still have to sell their homes to pay for White Paper. Wait for the forthcoming Bill.” Is this not care under these plans. There were three important the biggest blank cheque that this Government or any points— other have ever asked us to pay, and would it not be irresponsible for us to do so without their telling us how Jesse Norman: Will the hon. Lady take an intervention? they are going to spend it?

Rachel Reeves: I have already taken an intervention Rachel Reeves: The truth is that the Tories are all tax from the Minister, and he did not answer the question. and no strategy. When it comes to the NHS and social [Interruption.] Okay, I will take the intervention on the care, last year the public clapped them; this year the basis that he answers the question that I and my hon. Tories tax them. There are far too many outstanding Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) have questions, with no detail published yesterday. What asked: how on earth does someone pay £86,000 when other tax rises on working people are set for further their house is worth £98,000 or £186,000? Let’s have the down the line, given that the Prime Minister refused to answer. rule them out yesterday? Will council tax have to rise to make the sums add up? How will the Government Jesse Norman: I am surprised that the hon. Lady did relieve the burden on councils and care homes? Again, not recognise the point about geographic impact that I there was no detail on that yesterday, and there is no made in my last intervention, but let me just point out detail today. that the Government have published a Build Back Better Mike Padgham of the Independent Care Group said: plan, which contains specific case studies of the impact “It’s not clear how the money is going to…the front line.” of this measure. That is where she should look for an That means that providers will be squeezed, and working answer to her question. conditions and pay impacted. This just does not add up.

Rachel Reeves: The Minister is wasting the House’s Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) time, because he is not answering the question. (Lab): We all recognise the significant crisis in the social care system, but is that not just another broken Conservative There were three important points in the Minister’s manifesto promise? They pledged to approach this in a opening speech. The first was that it is impossible to say manner of cross-party consensus. The manner in which what the impact of these proposals will be on waiting they are bringing forward these out-of-the-blue taxation lists. The second was that spending for local authorities measures on some of the poorest working people in this will be considered in the Budget. There is no detail at all country does nothing to build that consensus; it just about what money local authorities will get, and we are broadens the gap that we know many families face in being asked to vote for a tax increase without a plan to meeting the costs of social care. fix social care. The third point the Minister made, in answer to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend is exactly right. The my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Conservatives walked out of cross-party talks in 2010, Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier), was that councils will and despite offers from my hon. Friend the Member for pay this levy as employers, so they will face increased Leicester West (Liz Kendall), they have never resumed. 331 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 332

[Rachel Reeves] Katherine Fletcher: I would be interested if the hon. Lady would let us know at which point “massive global So much for the plan; what does this mean for ordinary pandemic” appeared in any of the commitments made people funding it? The Chancellor’s tax on jobs does during the 2019 general election, and whether the Labour not just let down those needing care or working in the party would continue to have unfunded promises for care sector; it is a tax on all those in work. As daily which we would have to borrow from the market or covid cases continue to climb, the only shielding that whether they would continue to kick the can of a gnarly the Government are interested in is protecting the wealthiest problem down the road. Constituents of mine have few from paying more tax. As I said, a private landlord been worried about social care all summer. It is a owning and renting out multiple properties will not pay problem that people have ducked for generations. We a penny more, yet their hard-working tenants who work are doing it in a way we can afford. for a living will be hit hard. It is deeply unfair. Rachel Reeves: I am not sure what the constituents of Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): South Ribble will make of that, but I know what they Does my hon. Friend agree that the question on everyone’s will think after seeing less money in their pay cheques mind is, “When is my operation going to happen?” The time after time because of decisions by this Government. Health Secretary does not seem to be able to answer There are choices, and they are difficult ones. This that basic question. When will the waiting list be over? Government are choosing to tax ordinary working-class When will we stop having to wait for crucial operations? people. Labour would ask those with the broadest shoulders—the wealthiest in our communities—to pay Rachel Reeves: That is exactly the question that all more. This Government make a different choice; they our constituents ask, but as the Minister has failed to can justify that to their constituents. say today when the backlog will be cleared, we have to wonder whether this plan adds up, and when any money Several hon. Members rose— at all will be available for social care. Rachel Reeves: I will give way to the Chair of the The incomes of working people just are not of interest Select Committee. to this Government. I asked the excellent staff of the Library to examine the impact on a typical worker in Mr Betts: I bring my hon. Friend back to paragraph constituencies such as mine in Leeds West, the Minister’s 36, which I asked the Minister about, which seems in Hereford, and the Chancellor’s. Let us imagine that absolutely key. There is no clear money coming from our worker is a new police constable—a single mum the levy to social care. That is what the Government with two children, earning £26,000 a year. She rents her said. I think the Minister said it would all be revealed in home in the private sector. She is eligible for universal the spending review. Paragraph 36 states: credit. What have this Government done for her? “The Government will ensure Local Authorities have access to [Interruption.] Hon. Members laugh, but they will not sustainable funding for core budgets at the Spending Review. We be laughing when constituents come to their surgeries expect demographic and unit cost pressures will be met through and ask why this Government are taking money away Council Tax, social care precept”. from them. On top of all the other hits that working families are going to get, can they expect an above-inflation rise in Katherine Fletcher (South Ribble) (Con): Will the their council tax next year to pay for the Government’s hon. Lady give way? failure to fund social care properly? Rachel Reeves: No, I think the hon. Lady should Rachel Reeves: I think many councils and the people listen to this. What have this Government done for that who work for them and provide social care at a local worker and her family? The Chancellor has frozen her level will be incredibly worried about what they are pay this year. The Chancellor has frozen her income tax hearing from this Government, which is that council personal allowance. The Chancellor is taking £20 a costs are going to go up while they are getting no week away from her and her family in universal credit, additional money. and her council tax bill has gone up by £80. Now the Chancellor is coming back for more and asking for Jake Berry: Will the hon. Lady give way? 1.25% of her income in national insurance. Why do this Government keep coming after the same people time Rachel Reeves: I will give way again in a moment, but after time, asking ordinary working-class people to pay I have taken a lot of interventions—a lot more than the more of their incomes? Minister. If we add it up, the total cost to that worker and her In contrast, who has been shielded by the Chancellor? kids—this is all of our constituents—will be an extra Which types of income will be paying no additional tax £1,234 next year. That is not just a one-off. Analysis after today? They include those who get their income from the New Economics Foundation shows that 2.5 million from financial assets, stocks and shares, sales of property, working households will be hit by the Tory double pension income, annuity income, interest income, property whammy of cuts to universal credit and an increase in rental income and inheritance income. Well, fancy that. their national insurance. Put that on your leaflets at the I do not doubt that the champagne glasses were clinking next election. in Mayfair last night toasting the Chancellor, but not in Mansfield, not in Middlesbrough, not in South Ribble Katherine Fletcher rose— and not in Thirsk either. Some 95% of the revenue the Government plan to raise from this tax bombshell Rachel Reeves: I will give way to the hon. Lady. I will comes from employment. What a contrast. be interested to hear what she is going to say to her constituents at her surgery. Several hon. Members rose— 333 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 334

Rachel Reeves: Let me just make this point. possible time. Businesses create jobs and will drive our What a contrast. Yesterday, Amazon reported an recovery. Labour is a party that is pro-worker and additional £1.9 billion-worth of sales, but it is paying proudly pro-business, too. I am proud of the decisions only £3.8 million more in corporation tax, with much of that the former Prime Minister and the former Chancellor its profits diverted to Luxembourg. Yet with the changes made that brought down waiting lists to their lowest announced yesterday, a graduate on a typical entry-level ever level—targets that have never been met under salary will now pay a marginal tax rate of almost 11 years of Tory Government. We want business to 50%. And not a word from the Chancellor or any of his succeed, to invest more, to employ more, to pay more Ministers about any of that. Politics is about choices and to create more wealth. and there are other ways to raise this money. The These are still precarious times, with many businesses Chancellor wants the country to believe that— in all our constituencies not yet back to full capacity [Interruption.] Sales on property or on financial assets and others considering how they are going to repay the such as stocks and shares—there are no additional loans taken on during the pandemic. What do the taxes on people who get their incomes in that way, but Chancellor and the Minister think the effect of this tax plenty of additional taxes on ordinary working-class rise on jobs will be? That has not been set out. It could people. mean an attempted squeeze on wages and conditions, The Chancellor wants the country to believe that this even higher prices for customers, or the scaling back of is the only way to do it, but the point is that it is not. recruitment and growth plans. It will affect people and The Prime Minister and the Chancellor have deliberately it will affect the Exchequer, too. It is a false economy. chosen to go after those who are working hard for their The Chancellor and the Minister do not need to take money. Labour understands—I understand—how hard my word for it. The British Chambers of Commerce people work for their wages. I do not believe that the described it as: Chancellor considers the lives of people outside this “a drag anchor on jobs growth” place in any detail before he takes decisions like this. and believes it will The Government, as was mentioned earlier, are rushing “dampen the entrepreneurial spirit needed to drive the recovery”. this through without publishing a proper analysis of the impact on jobs, on different parts of the country and on Make UK says it is different incomes. They are not even allowing proper “ill-timed as well as illogical”. amendments. Members will know that we are limited in The CBI says that it how we can amend the motion this evening. That is why “will directly hurt a business’s ability to hire staff at a time when we have put forward what we can: an amendment businesses have faced a torrid 18 months.” calling for an assessment of this tax on jobs—an assessment that the Chancellor is unwilling to provide. The Federation of Small Businesses says that “this increase will stifle recruitment, investment and efforts to Several hon. Members rose— upskill”. They are joined by the trade unions. The TUC says it is Rachel Reeves: I will give way just twice more: to my wrong to hit young people and low-paid workers hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) and then to the hon. Member for Sevenoaks “while leaving the wealthy untouched.” (Laura Trott). We agree with businesses and we agree with our trades unions, too. They are right. This is a tax on jobs. Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): In my It is a tax on the economic recovery and we will not constituency and in my hon. Friend’s constituency next support it. door, we have many people right at the start of their Let us go back to the key questions that need answering. working lives paying, as she says, nearly 50% in tax after Will this plan deliver what is promised for our health this change and very high rents in the private rented and social care sectors? No. Will it clear the NHS sector. They effectively have no disposable income. Their backlog by the end of this Parliament? No—and the dreams of ever owning a home are being destroyed by Health Secretary says no. Will it give social care the Conservative Members. Does she not agree? resources it needs for the next three years? [HON.MEMBERS: “No.”] Is there a plan to reform social care? [HON. Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend speaks well of what MEMBERS: “No.”] Will it create more and better paid our constituents in Leeds North West and Leeds West jobs in the economy? [HON.MEMBERS: “No.”] Is it fair will be facing with that double whammy of universal across the regions? [HON.MEMBERS: “No.”] Will people credit and the national insurance increase, in addition be prevented from selling their homes to fund their to the other tax increases from this Government. I will care? [HON.MEMBERS: “No.”] Will this tax bombshell take a final intervention and then I will start to wind up. help our economic recovery? No. Is it the last tax Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con): I thank the hon. increase in this Parliament? No. This whole thing is Lady for giving way. There is an obvious precedent for unravelling. No wonder that Ministers are in a desperate this national insurance rise to raise money for the rush to get it through. The Chancellor is absent today. national health service, which is from 2003. Were Labour Perhaps he has gone for a swim. wrong to raise national insurance for the national health Covid has tested the people of our country like service in 2003? nothing else in any of our lifetimes. After the last year and a half the country deserves a much better future, a Rachel Reeves: We had a clear plan to bring down recovery that enhances and enriches all our lives and in waiting lists, a plan that this Government are sorely all parts of the country. Social care is a huge challenge lacking. The economic circumstances are different, too. and there are other challenges coming too. We need to The Government’s tax on jobs comes at the worst do things differently. Labour’s test is simple: does it fix 335 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 336

[Rachel Reeves] the Treasury could have done is to seek to cut expenditure in other areas, yet I have no doubt that if it came the problem and does it do it in a fair way? The answer forward with any proposals of that nature, the Opposition to both of those questions is no. That is why Labour would have fiercely resisted that as austerity all over will vote against this unfair,job-taxing, manifesto-shredding again. We have to understand that on the current tax bombshell this evening. projections, there are many unfunded commitments, including, for example, keeping our railways going, Several hon. Members rose— going for net zero, additional funding that will be needed for school catch-up and so on. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. As Members can see from the Annunciator, there is a Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): Given the right hon. five-minute limit on all Back-Bench contributions. We Gentleman’s experience on the Treasury Committee, will start with Mel Stride. does he not agree that a tax hike of this scale could—if it was necessary—be much more fairly and equitably 2.17 pm carried out if the tax burden was spread across a Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): I rise to welcome, number of different taxes, rather than 100% of the broadly, the motion. It seems to me that social care is burden being landed on one single, narrowly based tax? one of those issues that parties of both colours have Mel Stride: I will come back to the hon. Gentleman’s grappled with for many years, yet now we are at last at point, but let me just stick with the options. The second the point where a Government have the courage and are option was to lean into growth, to assume that we could sensible enough to actually come forward with some grow our way out of this problem. We have just had a realistic proposals. As to the breaking of manifesto huge contraction of the economy. We are not yet back commitments, no party ever wishes to do that, but up to the pre-pandemic level, although the Bank of listening to the Opposition it seems to me as if the England thinks that we may arrive at that point some global pandemic never occurred, as if the economy time towards the end of the year, and we have many never shrank by the greatest level since 1709 during the headwinds to growth ahead of us, not least the bottlenecks great frost of that year, as if millions of jobs were never in supply chains, the labour shortages that we have imperilled, and as if this Government never had to step witnessed in certain areas, and many other issues. in fiscally in a way that probably no Government outside wartime have ever had to do, and with such positive The third thing that the Treasury could have done is effects. to borrow more money, and that is probably what the Opposition would have done in this situation. Despite When it comes to the honesty or otherwise of what the fact that the Bank of England now seems to feel the Government have done, I think they have been that there is more money—I suspect that the Office for upfront, very clear and very honest in making it clear Budget Responsibility will confirm that around the that they have broken that commitment, unlike, I have time of the Budget— because the economy is doing a to say, the less straightforward way in which, repeatedly bit better than we expected, probably to the tune of in this debate, the Opposition and the shadow Chancellor about £25 billion, it would be a very brave Chancellor have ducked the fundamental question: what is the who started to borrow yet more and more, knowing Opposition’salternative plan? In response to an intervention that one day it is possible that the markets might turn by my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Laura around and look at the United Kingdom and decide Trott), the shadow Chancellor, when asked why Labour that they no longer have confidence to lend to us. That had supported an increase in national insurance in would be a very dark day. 2003, said, “Well, we had a plan.” I humbly remind her that that was 18 years ago. What we need to see now is a John Redwood: Will my right hon. Friend give way? plan from the Opposition, as well as the criticism. Mel Stride: I will not, actually, because I am very low Chris Bryant: The right hon. Gentleman and I have on time. known each other for a very long time. I just hope that That is the sword of Damocles that hangs regularly he could explain to my constituents why it is right that over the head of our Chancellor, so that leads us to practically everybody in the Rhondda would have to taxation. If we look at taxation and the amounts involved sell their home to meet the £86,000 cost, whereas next to here, there are only three taxes that we could consider. nobody would have to do so in his constituency. About two thirds of all tax is raised through income tax, national insurance and VAT. We then ask ourselves, Mel Stride: First, the hon. Gentleman’s knowledge of “What criteria are we going to apply to the tax measures my constituency is obviously rather deficient, because I to test whether they are the right ones or not?” There expect that mine shares many characteristics in common are at least two. One is that we should look after the with his. I do not dispute the fact that any major fiscal least advantaged in our society—the lowest-paid—and move, such as putting up national insurance and bringing the second is that we should look after those who are in this levy in this manner,will have associated complexities the youngest, who have borne the greatest brunt of the and difficulties. My pledge to the House is that the economic consequences of the pandemic. Treasury Committee will, I am sure,after private discussion, decide that we wish to look more closely at a number of Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): Will the right hon. the issues that are being raised in this debate, including Gentleman give way? the one that he mentioned. Let us be honest about the options that were available Mel Stride: I will not—I am very short on time. We to the Treasury. How could we have squared the circle are looking to the younger generations, to some significant and funded £10 billion-plus a year? The first thing that degree, to fund predominantly the needs of elderly 337 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 338 people and social care. If we look at those taxes, income plan announced yesterday are already drawing criticism tax rises would have been very progressive—there is no from all sides—from The Daily Telegraph, the Daily Mirror, doubt about that. We would have had to have about the Cabinet and Back Benchers. twice the level of increase that we are looking at with national insurance to have raised the same amount of Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): My money.I think we need—the Minister made this point—a hon. Friend is making a number of very important UK-wide solution to this, not one based on income tax, points. An anonymous member of the Cabinet is quoted where, of course, elements of income tax are devolved in The Daily Telegraph as being very critical of this policy: to other nations across the United Kingdom. “If you get all your income from investments and property you If we put up VAT, that would be hugely regressive, don’t pay a penny but if you work your guts out for minimum particularly at the level of income received rather than wage you get clobbered.” expenditure. That would therefore have been wrong. We Can my hon. Friend hazard a guess as to what the are also up at 20%, I think—near the upper limit of Tories have against taxing unearned income? where VATshould be, given the distortionary consequences of going further. Alison Thewliss: I would be very curious to know why That inevitably leads us to national insurance, just that is. I was going to read out that very quote, because what Labour was led to in 2003. The original proposal, even three former Conservative leaders, including a it seems to me, failed both of my tests. If we just put up former Prime Minister and three more former Chancellors, national insurance, it would have been regressive. It have spoken out against this move. To complete the would have hit the poorest hardest, but what is right quote that my hon. and learned Friend mentioned, this about the Chancellor’s approach is that he has extended person, an anonymous member of the Conservative it to those beyond the state retirement age and those party, said: receiving income by way of dividends. That critical “Putting up National Insurance would be morally, economically move makes this, in general, the right approach. and politically wrong.” There are many issues that the Committee will no They went on to say: doubt look at. One of them is that a regrettable consequence “After all that’s happened in the last 18 months they can’t of the increase in the employer’s national insurance rate seriously be thinking about a tax raid on supermarket workers and nurses so the children of Surrey homeowners can receive is that it will exacerbate the so-called “three people bigger inheritances.” problem”, whereby the different tax treatment of the employed, the self-employed and those receiving income Well, yes indeed they are. through their own company will be widened, with consequences for IR35. I am out of time, but I support Dr Whitford: Is it not the case that the talk is about this motion today. making life better for social care staff, but actually, they are exactly the people who will lose £1,000 a year in the universal credit cut and will now face this extra cost? 2.25 pm Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): I would Alison Thewliss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. like to start by giving the UK Government some They are the people who can least afford it and who credit: they are absolute masters of illusion and have worked the hardest through this pandemic, who deflection. Trying to get them to simply answer a question this Government should be thanking, not taxing. is like pinning jelly to a wall. Their Ministers are We are being asked to vote today on measures that astonishingly unperturbed by going out to argue for the Institute for Fiscal Studies has described as “better policies that entirely contradict the cast-iron promises than doing nothing”, which is about as charitable an they made when they stood for election. We on the analysis as is possible of this policy. Scottish National party Benches are clear that raising national insurance is a blunt tool to fund social care, John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) likely to disproportionately hit young people and lower (Con): Will the hon. Lady give way? earners. Our SNP amendment (a) would have forced the UK Tory Government to come clean on the distributional Alison Thewliss: In a second. Very few people would impact of this policy. dispute the need for action on health and social care in We would love to be able to amend the motion more England. However, an increase to national insurance broadly, but as the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris contributions is not the fairest way to go about it. I Bryant) pointed out, we have limitations on our ability would be interested to know why the hon. Gentleman to do so this afternoon, which is hugely frustrating. Our thinks it is fair for his constituents. amendment therefore covers the impact by age, because we know that young people will be affected worst; by John Lamont: The hon. Lady made reference to the income, because we know that national insurance is IFS. She will know that the IFS has noted that over the regressive and will hammer lower earners; by wealth, past 10 years the health spend in Scotland has grown by because those with unearned incomes stand to be the 1.2%, whereas in England it has grown by 3.6% on a big winners and the key political motive here appears to like-for-like basis. Surely it is astonishing that she would be for the Tories to bail out their well-heeled voters vote against £1 billion of extra investment for Scotland’s against losing their inheritance; and by place of residence, NHS. because this is a UK tax for an English policy crisis and, within England, the Resolution Foundation is clear that Alison Thewliss: What the hon. Gentleman fails to this policy will benefit the south-east the most. It is of understand is that we are starting from very different no surprise to me that the UK Tory Government’s points. He does not acknowledge that, and he does not national insurance hike and the “back of a fag packet” understand it. 339 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 340

[Alison Thewliss] the strongest terms. The Federation of Small Businesses has called the national insurance hike The response from equality and anti-poverty groups “anti-job, anti-small business, anti-start up”, has been absolutely damning. The Women’s Budget pointing out that the increase to national insurance will Group has said: “stifle recruitment, investment and efforts to upskill and improve “We believe there is a fairer way to fund social care. This is productivity in the years ahead.” because, as they currently stand NICs are more regressive than income tax—with a lower threshold at which payments start, and Dame Angela Eagle: Is the hon. Lady worried that a higher rate threshold beyond which employees pay a lower the Government appear to be increasing taxes at a far rate.” earlier stage of the economic recovery from the pandemic The Resolution Foundation has described the policy as than similar economies? “generationally unfair”. Paul Johnson of the IFS has said: Alison Thewliss: The hon. Lady is absolutely correct. “Remains the case pensioners will pay next to nothing for this The Government have learned nothing from the austerity social care package—overwhelmingly to be paid by working age that caused so much damage with the last crash. They employees”. are about to repeat their mistakes, and those on the lowest incomes will be hammered most, again. LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): The Institute of Directors has called the hike “political There are many ways in which this policy could have opportunism” and has highlighted the tax on dividends, been made progressive, one of which would have been which will hit sole traders and small company directors, to look at the upper threshold for national insurance, many of whom were completely and unjustifiably excluded which has not been addressed. A young graduate will from UK Government support during the pandemic. It now have a marginal tax rate higher than a rich Conservative really does rub salt in the wounds. on the Government Benches. Matt Rodda: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent way on that excellent point. In my constituency in point. For young people who have perhaps struggled Reading, many of the same families will be affected; she through this year, who have graduated and who are is wise to point that out, and I reiterate that point. It going out into the world of work, it is a real hammer appears that the same very hard-working groups of blow to their prospects. people, many of whom are key workers or are with Many families are already facing a historic £1,040 cut small businesses, are being affected disproportionately to their annual incomes and are staring down the barrel by this unfair tax rise. At the same time, it is not solving of impending cuts to universal credit and working tax the fundamental problems with social care. credit. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has described the new levy as adding “insult to injury”. The New Alison Thewliss: Absolutely. It does nothing to resolve Economics Foundation has calculated that 2.5 million either issue, and it makes it all the harder for people working households will be affected by the £20 a week who have suffered so hard during the pandemic and cut to universal credit and the increase in national been excluded from support to get back on their feet insurance. On average, they will lose out by £1,290 in and bring money back into the economy. It makes no the next financial year. Working households are doing economic sense whatever. their very best to put food on the table and support Of course, the unjust effect of the national insurance their children, and this cruel UK Tory Government caw hike will be compounded in Scotland because the Prime the legs from under them. Minister is proposing that Scottish tax contributions be used to fund England-only policies. My constituents Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con) rose— and people across Scotland are generous people, and I am sure that very few of them would begrudge the Alison Thewliss: If the hon. Gentleman can explain principle of funding the NHS and fixing social care why that is fair to the families who have been working after the pandemic, if indeed they had any faith that so hard, I will be glad to give way. this Government were capable of fixing anything. But as things stand, the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish Mr Baker: I wonder whether the hon. Lady has stand to be taxed twice: first for the health and social popped out to the Vote Office and picked up the care system that they actually receive from their own distributional analysis that the Government have published, Government, and then for the NHS and social care in which shows the impact across the deciles of income in England, for services that they do not have access to, this country: it just does not bear out what she is saying. where money more often than not appears to be squandered I encourage anybody out there to pick up that analysis on dodgy contracts and cronyism scandals. and have a look. We know from the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and other Tory Brexit legislation that we Alison Thewliss: I have seen a different analysis from cannot trust Government Members to respect our hard-won the New Economics Foundation; I urge the hon. Gentleman devolution. I am not reassured in the slightest by all the to look at it, because it gives a very different picture talk yesterday from the Prime Minister about directing from the one that the Government are presenting today, money raised from the new levy into health and social which is why we need more analysis of the policy before care services in Scotland. the Government go forward with it. The policy will also have an impact on our recovery Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) from the pandemic. Businesses, which have weathered (Ind): The hon. Lady is making a very important point. such a challenging year, have spoken out against it in Is she aware of any discussions having been held between 341 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 342

Treasury Ministers and SNP Scottish Ministers or Labour Alison Thewliss: We already spend more per head on Ministers in the Welsh Government? It seems to me that the NHS than is spent in England. We already have the British Government are using a UK-wide tax to better services in Scotland than in England. This policy fund English priorities. is an entirely regressive form of taxation that does nothing for the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and does Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely nothing for mine. correct on that front. These are not our priorities; we already have these services in our own nations. Dr Whitford: Scotland already spends 43% more per head on social care, which allows us to be the only Several hon. Members rose— nation that delivers free personal care and has extended it to people under 65. That was why we raised the extra Alison Thewliss: If Conservative Members will just 1p on tax, for which Scots are already paying and from calm down for a little minute, I will try to bring them in which they are already gaining. That should be controlled at some point. I want others to get in to make their by the Scottish Parliament. speeches—gie’s peace. Alison Thewliss: My hon. Friend speaks the absolute It is not for the Prime Minister or anybody else in the truth. There is a huge contrast between what the UK Government to direct how devolved budgets are Government propose and what is already being delivered spent. The Ways and Means resolution ties the money in Scotland. to NHS Scotland, not to our democratically elected Scottish Parliament and Government—a further Some have said, “What’s your alternative?” Well, undermining of decision making, showing a lack of fixing England’s social care crisis is not for the SNP to understanding of how services are provided in Scotland. decide, quite frankly. Having heard evidence when I sat Wehave had no assurance from the UK Tory Government on the Select Committee on Communities and Local about the extent of the Barnett consequentials that will Government some years ago, I know that successive be generated from the spending. I seek clarity on that UK Governments have failed to act and have ignored today. the evidence as difficulties mounted. Now the Prime Minister has come to this House in haste, shamelessly SNP Members cannot support measures that are so using covid as cover. manifestly unfair to our constituents and whose financial consequences amount to a pig in a poke. The Resolution Kevin Hollinrake: Will the hon. Lady give way? Foundation has pointed out that while health spending may go up, spending on other areas such as local Alison Thewliss: I will, because we served on the government has gone down compared with pre-pandemic Communities and Local Government Committee together. plans. [Interruption.] Local government, of course,provides a significant proportion of the social care that Tory Kevin Hollinrake: I am very grateful. In respect of the Members, who would do better to wheesht and listen sufficiency of Scottish social care budgets, there is now than to chat away in the corner, claim to care about. an 11-week wait in parts of Scotland for discharge from hospital into a care home. Is the hon. Lady honestly Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con) saying that she does not need extra resources for Scottish rose— health and social care?

Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman has done more Alison Thewliss: The hon. Gentleman should look at talking than listening in this place. It would be useful if the comparative figures in his own constituency. I am he sat down. not saying for one second, and I would never say, that The spending cuts will have an impact on Barnett everything in Scotland is perfect, but we are making consequentials. It would be just like this UK Tory good progress on that, and we intend to make more Government to appear to give with one hand while progress. picking Scotland’s pockets with the other. A new Tory The social care funding announced by the Government poll tax that punishes those on the lowest incomes is may in the end amount to as little as 20% raised by this being forced upon Scotland by a Government we did tax hike, and not even for a few years. The British not vote for. Association of Social Workers has said that this raises more questions than answers, and that it needs the Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) funding for services right now, not at some point in the (Con) rose— future. The early analysis across the board today demonstrates that the sheen is already coming off this Alison Thewliss: If the hon. Gentleman wants to policy.In contrast, the SNP has used its time in government explain that to his constituents, I would be very glad to to introduce health and social care integration, self-directed hear it. support and the Carers (Scotland) Act 2016. We have health and social care partnerships on the ground working Andrew Bowie: The hon. Lady is making a serious away to deliver more integrated services to our constituents. speech with lots of very pertinent points, many of Free personal care has been available in Scotland for which I disagree with, but the fact is that we have come adults aged 65 or over since 2002, extended in 2019—as to the crux. This action by the Government will actually was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for deliver more than £1 billion of extra funding to Scotland’s Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford)—to people of all ages national health service. The real reason SNP Members who require it. Yesterday the Scottish Government’s oppose the motion is that they would rather Scotland’s programme for government set out the timetable for NHS were poorer than that Scotland benefited from establishing our national care service, the most significant being a part of this United Kingdom. That is the fact. public service reform since the creation of the NHS. 343 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 344

[Alison Thewliss] had looked at income tax, which, as we heard from the Chair of the Treasury Select Committee himself—my This is a Westminster power grab on devolved healthcare right hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel and the democratic institutions of Scotland, Wales and Stride)— would be much less regressive. Northern Ireland. The Government are taxing our people to pay for their chaotic mishandling of health and Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): social care in England. They are undermining our recovery My constituency has similar house prices, and I know by putting a tax in employers. They are punishing that my constituents share these concerns. As for the working people on low pay by cutting their universal point about income tax, the advantage of taking this credit and hiking taxes on their meagre wages. This is tax from national insurance is that the cost is shared no Union dividend, as the Prime Minister likes to claim; between workers and businesses, but smaller businesses it is a Union dead end, and the people of Scotland must will not pay, for reasons that the Minister has already have the choice to take the fastest road out of here to given. Is this not a better way of sharing cost across independence. business and employees, which will actually affect lower earners in our constituencies less than the income tax 2.41 pm alternative? Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): Let me Jake Berry: I thank my hon. Friend for making that start by congratulating the Government on grappling point, but I do not agree with her. I do not think that we with what I think is a very difficult issue—actually, it is have to consign ourselves to one tax to deal with this probably “the” issue for our generation to deal with—of issue. It is perfectly possible to put up income tax, which how we ensure that older people have dignity in their is a much fairer way of taxing people across the income old age, and how we deal with an ageing population. scale, and, of course, picks up wealthy pensioners with However, I do not believe that the way in which we are very large pensions, picks up dividend income, and proposingtodoit,throughnationalinsurancecontributions, picks up rental income, which was mentioned from the is the correct way. Opposition Front Bench. It picks up all of our income, There are three reasons why I think this will be while at the same time allowing us to look at different particularly damaging to areas such as the one that I ways to tax business. I have said before that I think we represent. First, ours is an area with low incomes. The should have an online sales tax—an Amazon tax, as it is lower a person’s income, the more that person pays, as a called—which the Treasury has previously said could proportion of that income, in national insurance release about £2 billion. That is not enough, but we contributions. The national insurance rate on incomes could increase employers’ NI only, and we could increase above £50,000—before these changes—is just 2%. So corporation tax. This problem needs to be tackled with those on the lowest incomes pay the most proportionately a cocktail of funding, not just one tax. But if we are to in national insurance contributions. use just one tax, I do not believe that NI is the correct Secondly, ours is an area with low property values. one. An £86,000 cap on contributions, or even a £100,000 asset floor, may be right for other parts of the country, Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Will the right but in my constituency, where the average property hon. Gentleman give way? price is £170,000 or £180,000, by the time people hit that damping floor of £100,000, they would have had to Jake Berry: No, I will not. I have already given way pay the equivalent of 50% of their property value in twice. care home fees. I congratulate the Government on trying to look at some of the concerns that many colleagues in northern Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): I thank constituencies have about low income, high unemployment my right hon. Friend for raising an important issue, and low property values, and I congratulate them on with which I too have been grappling since yesterday’s raising the floor to £100,000. I think that that goes announcement. Does he agree that it would be wonderful some way towards dealing with the issues that concern to hear from the Government that they may consider many of us, although, certainly from my point of view, looking at regional disparities in house prices when it does not solve them. setting the floor? What also concerns me greatly is that this tax is not Jake Berry: What a brilliant suggestion—one that I actually a health and social care tax; it is a Trojan horse was about to make myself. I think that the Government for an NHS tax. The Government themselves say that in should think about both the £86,000 contribution and the first few years of this tax, nigh on 100% of it will go regional house prices when considering that damping towards supporting the NHS. That is quite right, in that floor. the NHS does need more money, but if it is an NHS tax, Thirdly, ours is an area with historically high which will be hypothecated and listed on pay slips, we unemployment. National insurance, as we have all called should call it that, rather than calling it a health and it during election campaigns, is in fact a jobs tax. It is a social care tax. disincentive to the creation of new jobs, and those When the time comes to move the money from the already in work will see, for instance, pay rises suspended NHS to health and social care, what Government of as the wage bill goes up for employers just for employing any political hue are going to cut £12 billion from the people in their businesses. That is why I think that NHS budget? If we create an NHS tax, we have an NHS national insurance is the wrong tax to use for the people tax forever. It will never go down; it can only go up. No in my constituency. They are hit just as hard by this party is ever going to stand at an election saying, “I’ve appalling social care issue as people anywhere else, but, got a good idea. Vote for me—I will cut the NHS tax.” I for us, I would have much preferred it if the Government think there is a huge danger for us in creating such a 345 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 346 hypothecated tax and listing it on people’s pay slips. It is 2003? Can she say what happened to NHS productivity fundamentally un-Conservative, and in the long term it as a result in the decade that succeeded it? I can, and it will massively damage the prospects of our party, because wasn’t pretty. we will never outbid the Labour party in the arms race of an NHS tax. Dame Angela Eagle: We had the Wanless report, rising real wages and a buoyant economy, and we did a As a Conservative, I believe that the way to fund lot of work with civil society and communities before public services better is to grow the economy, to make the we introduced the rise. We did not just pull it out of a cake bigger. This change makes the cake smaller, because hat like a rabbit. It led to a 6% increase per year in it is a jobs tax—and not even that: those who live in a funding for the NHS, not the 3.5% that this measure low-wage,low-property-price,high-unemploymenteconomy will lead to. will get a smaller slice of it at the end of the day. They will have both a smaller cake and a smaller slice. Sammy Wilson: The Member has outlined the effect I hope that the Government will take the opportunity on the vulnerable and on employment. Would she accept to think again. I welcome the new money for the NHS, that this is going to affect young people hard as well? but throwing other people’s money down a bottomless People who cannot afford to purchase a house are going pit does not become a good idea if we put the NHS logo to be taxed to ensure that people who have an asset are next to it. If we are going to fund the NHS, if we are protected. going to give it more money, before the Government ask the House and us as Members of Parliament to Dame Angela Eagle: The right hon. Gentleman makes approve that, they should show us the plan. We cannot an important point, especially given the effect on those measure the NHS by what goes into it; we have to young people who are having to repay their student measure it by what comes out at the other end. loans, which takes their effective marginal tax rate close For those reasons, with a heavy heart, I will not be to 50%. We have to look at the fairness of that. supporting the Government this evening. This is not a plan to reform social care. A mere 15% of the extra £36 billion raised in the next three 2.49 pm years is earmarked for social care and the mechanisms by which that will be dispensed are unclear, but vital to Dame Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I look forward any prospect of an improved outcome. Indeed, they are to seeing the right hon. Member for Rossendale and so unclear that the Minister could not give us any Darwen (Jake Berry) in the Division Lobby tonight. insight into them during his opening remarks. This new What we witnessed yesterday was a Budget in all but money will not be available until 2023 and it will therefore name. It was a Budget sprung on this House with not help a single family struggling now with the catastrophic minimal warning and leaked to friendly newspapers cost of paying for their loved ones to access social care. over the weekend, but with scant detail being made It is far from certain that the NHS will not simply available to Members of this House in a statement full swallow up all the money allocated from the tax increase of the deliberate obfuscations that have come to define to try to tackle the backlogs in the NHS caused by this most slippery and unreliable of Prime Ministers. Government cuts and exacerbated by the effects of the And today the Government are attempting to bounce it covid pandemic. through the House before their own Back Benchers rise This new money will not make up for the huge cuts up in revolt. Some things are abundantly clear, despite that this Government have been responsible for making the Government’s attempted sleight of hand. This to the social care system in the past 11 years. Age announcement cynically breaks a guarantee personally Concern estimates that 1.5 million people in need of signed by the Prime Minister at the last election that he care have been denied it as a result of the 7.5% per head would not put national insurance contributions up. cut in funding that this Government have delivered That was one of two solemn manifesto pledges that he since they were first elected in 2010. The burden has tore up yesterday, which makes me ask why anyone fallen on family members and unpaid carers, many of should believe what any future Tory election pledge whom have had to put their lives on hold to deliver care says, ever again. to loved ones with little or no support. The huge cuts to While proclaiming that they are the party of low local authorities over the same period have stretched taxation, the Conservatives have ushered in the largest the care system beyond breaking point, yet the Prime tax rise in generations and now preside over a country Minister had nothing to say about any of that yesterday. with the largest percentage tax take in peacetime, but it is not a fair tax system. It continues the shift in tax Imran Hussain (Bradford East) (Lab): Will my hon. liabilities away from those who make their income from Friend give way? owning assets to those who work. It exacerbates the three-body problem with self-employment, encouraging Dame Angela Eagle: No, because I would run out of evasion, and it leaves wealth largely unscathed. It will time. exacerbate the unfairness and inequality that scar our This is not a plan for social care, even though the society and that have been highlighted by the covid Prime Minister is claiming that it is. The system needs pandemic’s unequal effect on the poor and vulnerable. fundamental reform, but this is tinkering at the edges. A This tax hike has been presented by the Government as real reform of social care would involve wholesale change an historic move to fix the social care system, but in from top to bottom. It would deal with those who reality it is nothing of the sort. require care now, not ignore them and their needs as the Government have done. There is nothing for them in Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): If the Prime Minister’s announcement. A real reform would the hon. Lady is so against this increase in national have a plan for care workers and their future, with insurance contributions, why did she vote for one in training, career progression, decent pay and an end to 347 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 348

[Dame Angela Eagle] Those three things were more money, more capacity and a plan. I have been involved in health politics for zero-hours contracts, to low minimum wage remuneration, 15 to 20 years, and every single review that I have seen to 15-minute appointments with no pay for the time it the NHS conduct has said that it needs more money, takes to drive from one client to another and to fragmented more staff and a plan. That has happened under Labour contracts that wreck lives. Governments and under Conservative Governments. At the moment, there are 112,000 vacancies in the So if we are going to go ahead with this plan, which I care sector, and staff turnover is 34% a year. That support, we need to ensure that it goes with reform and indicates the need for fundamental reform. The pay for innovation too. working in an Amazon warehouse or a supermarket is Catherine West: With his wealth of experience in higher than the pay for caring. Surely that is wrong. The health politics, does the hon. Gentleman accept that we covid pandemic and the shameful betrayal of care workers do not know, because the Secretary of State for Health and those who require care, which unfolded during the and Social Care has not outlined it, how many of the first wave of covid-19, told us all we needed to know people on waiting lists will actually be seen and dealt about the ramshackle nature of a system that this with, and that this is a bit of blank cheque? Government have allowed to teeter on the verge of collapse for the past 11 years. Paul Bristow: We will not approach the backlog unless The Prime Minister’s announcements are totally we have the money and capacity to fund it, and that inadequate to the scale of the task, if there really is a needs to go hand in hand with what I said about plan to fix social care. All that those who work in care innovation, new pathways and new ways of working. I got out of his statement was a tax rise and no pay remember talking to someone who told me that we had increase. Those trying to access care now got nothing. three years’ worth of innovation in the NHS in just Those trying to provide domiciliary care were not even three months because of the pandemic. New ways of mentioned, and nor was the growing army of carers. working and new pathways were adopted. Protecting the assets of those needing to access care for Every time we talk about innovation in our NHS and long periods is not a substitute for fundamental reform new pathways—the accelerated access review, the of the system; it is not a plan for social care. It is a sign “Innovation Health and Wealth” report and a new life that the Government are dodging a long overdue and sciences strategy all talk about innovation and new necessary reform. The Prime Minister’s so-called plan ways of doing things in our NHS. But those new ways breaks election promises. It is half-baked, inadequate of doing things need to be spread at pace and at scale. and unjust. There is no excuse not to do it now. If it works in one part of the NHS, it will work in another. Culturally, the 2.57 pm NHS needs to grasp the nettle and spread that innovation and new ways of doing things so that we can get Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con): I rise as a member productivity and outcomes for patients. Now is the time of the Health and Social Care Committee to support to do it. this measure today, and as I do so I would like to direct Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Mr Betts: The Health and Social Care Committee, of Members’ Financial Interests. I sit on the Health and which the hon. Gentleman is a member, estimated last Social Care Committee, and only yesterday morning in autumn that there was a £3.9 billion funding gap in the Committee we heard from two patients who talked social care. I assume that he agreed with that report. clearly about the delays that they faced in accessing care Can he explain, therefore, how this levy will deliver in the NHS. The first was a lady called Shirley Cochrane, £3.9 billion a year for social care? I have not seen any who sadly had an aggressive form of breast cancer. figures showing that at all. During her time on an NHS waiting list, waiting for treatment, she felt alone and said that she was not Paul Bristow: Having no plan will not provide the listened to and did not get the attention she needed. The £3.9 billion, and Labour Members have indicated today second was a gentleman called James Wilkinson. He that there is no plan. had myocarditis, a condition that I know a little bit This is a significant tax increase. I am a Conservative, about myself, having had that condition in the past. so I do not like tax increases, but I also understand that While waiting for aortic valve replacement surgery, he an enormous thing happened between the manifesto had the surgery cancelled three times. and now. There has been a global pandemic, and Labour Members seem to have missed that fact. We need to Weface an enormous challenge.In that same Committee, shorten waiting lists, we need to do something about it we heard from the Health Foundation, which talked and we need to correct it. about the enormous sums that would be needed to solve this backlog. It also talked about the number of consultants, Several hon. Members rose— NHS staff and nurses that would be needed to increase capacity in our NHS. Opposition Members need to Paul Bristow: I have given way twice, and I would like understand that, if we are going to face up to the to continue because I want to make another important enormous challenge that our NHS and social care point. system is facing, it has to be paid for. It cannot just be This tax, this levy, needs to be accompanied by borrowed. If they have a better way of paying for this, reform. The Health and Care Bill is in Committee, and they need to outline it now. it is really important. The way incentives are geared When the lady from the Health Foundation was within the system is one reason we can power through giving evidence to our Committee yesterday, she said elective waiting lists. We pay for care through a system that three things were needed to resolve the backlog. of tariffs. I urge Ministers and others to think carefully 349 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 350 about how we pay for elective procedures in our NHS, across the country.Weare repeatedly asking our constituents because any system of tariffs needs to ensure that to pay increased council tax, often for care services they hospitals are paid properly for carrying out procedures. are not receiving, when the services they do receive are There need to be proper incentives for hospitals to carry being cut to shreds. That is the reality. out hip, knee, cataract and hernia operations, which are As representatives of both parties in the local government the majority of the backlog, as well as treating cancer, sector said to the Select Committee on Housing, heart conditions and everything else. If we are not able Communities and Local Government, we cannot sort to find the right levers within our NHS system to ensure out the funding problems in local government without that we power through those elective procedures, we sorting out the funding problems in social care. That is will not be able to solve some of the more serious the reality. operations at the end. We are in the middle of a Select Committee inquiry, Innovation tariffs, for example, would also help by and we will be taking evidence from Ministers. I hope encouraging new ways of doing things. We cannot have they will start to explain to us how the care plan will a system where, financially, trusts and our NHS are not solve that problem. The Housing, Communities and incentivised to do the things they need to do to be more Local Government Committee and the Health and productive. They should not pursue short-term financial Social Care Committee have received estimates that the measures when we really need incentives to make sure funding gap for social care alone is between £2.5 billion that they do the right thing. and £4 billion a year, which does nothing to restore I will be marching through the lobby to support the services to the level they should be at or to address the Government today, because this is really important. real problems of low pay, which will eventually destroy the service because it will not be able to recruit people Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab): Will the as alternative jobs, such as at Amazon, pay so much hon. Gentleman give way? more. That is simply the reality. Paul Bristow: I have given way a few times. How much money will come from the levy? Paragraph 30 is the only bit that talks about money: £5.5 billion over We must grasp the nettle of NHS reform, backed three years. The gap is between £2.5 billion and £4 billion with finance so that our NHS staff have the bandwidth a year, yet we know the £5.5 billion has to fund: the cap to deal with the needed reform. That bandwidth is and floor system, which will be at least half of it, maybe capacity and money. If that does not happen, we will more; and the £500 million for workforce training, borrow more and spend more in the long term and this which is welcome. The money goes nowhere near funding ever-lasting round of more staff, more money and more the current gap, let alone bringing about any improvements plans will go on and on. or bringing people into the social care system who are I urge hon. Members to support the Government’s currently excluded. It just does not do it. motion today. The Government have said they will 3.4 pm “ensure local authorities have access to sustainable funding for core budgets at the spending review”. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): It is All will be revealed in the spending review, but the key pretty obvious that there has been a major funding bit is that the Government say they expect crisis in local government over the past 10 years. Local “demographic and unit cost pressures” councils have had bigger cuts to their budgets than any other part of the public sector, around 30%. will be met “through council tax, social care precept”. Imran Hussain: My hon. Friend is right to highlight We have had 5% council tax increases year on year, and the importance of local government, unlike the Minister, a lot of it has been to fund social care, so we are going who barely acknowledged its existence. Does he agree to get above-inflation council tax increases again, are that the last decade of ideological austerity and cuts by we? If we say national insurance payments are regressive, this Government has meant that local government budgets council tax is now regressive, too. That is the reality. have been slashed by up to 50%, directly contributing to this crisis? Kevin Hollinrake: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr Betts: I have made my position clear on the extent Mr Betts: Yes, I will give way, because I think the to which local government has been unfairly cut compared hon. Gentleman will ask me about the Select Committee’s with other parts of the public sector. 2018 report. Am I correct? Across the piece,local councils of all political persuasions have done a brilliant job of protecting their communities Kevin Hollinrake: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely over the past few years. They have done it by giving right. As always, he is making some very good points. I priority to social care, but that has still meant real-terms thoroughly enjoyed my time with him on the Select cuts due to the demographics, with more older people, Committee. with people with learning disabilities living longer and We did two reports on social care, and we made a with increased costs and demand for children’s social recommendation in 2018 to fund social care through care—demand for the latter two has gone up faster than the national insurance system. Does the hon. Gentleman the demand for elderly care over the past few years. still support that recommendation? In protecting social care, there have still been real-terms cuts. There are 1 million more elderly people not getting Mr Betts: Yes. However, may I just say to the hon. care who would have received it in the past. Other Gentleman that it was a slightly different recommendation services, such as parks, libraries, buses and highway from what the Government are proposing now? I have safety, have all been cut by up to 50% in local authorities our report here, just by chance—I thought I might be 351 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 352

[Mr Betts] insurance contributions. Many people will feel aggrieved about the position on that; a constituent has written to asked the question. We talked about the rate at which me angrily saying, “I am 68. I stopped paying NICs at national insurance would be paid—this was to cover the 65 and now you are asking me to pay them again.” That points that the right hon. Member for Rossendale and is a fair point, but this meets the challenge of, “Why Darwen (Jake Berry) made about low-paid areas. We should we subsidise pensioners at the same time as we talked about paying right the way up the income scale. are increasing NICs on the young?” Again, it is easy to We talked about extending it to pensions and unearned attack but difficult to come up with an alternative. income, and about it not being paid for by the under-40s, The point about London and the south-east is an who have been really badly hit by this pandemic, and we easy point of attack. Someone can buy a pleasant house ought to be doing our best to protect them. In paragraph 95, in my constituency for less than £100,000 but that we also made the important point that people should would not buy them a shoebox in London. Are we not have to sell their homes to pay for social care and actually subsidising people who own million-pound proposed instead houses in London? They can spend 30 years in a care “that a specified additional amount of Inheritance Tax should be home and can pay a very small proportion of that, levied”. because they can leave £900,000 to their children. We all agreed to that. That system is a lot fairer; people All these attacks can be made, but what is the alternative? would pay according to the value of their home and it That is what I ask the Labour party. They will not be a would not be that people in constituencies such as the credible alternative Government unless they come up right hon. Gentleman’s, where house prices are relatively with a plan. I will happily give way to any Labour MP low, end up paying a bigger percentage of the value of who says, “Right, I do not want to increase NICs. I their home to fund care than people in areas with higher shall increase income tax.” house prices. I stand by that recommendation. It is a different proposal from the one the Government are Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): I am struggling to now putting forward. understand the argument made by those on the Government I want to come back to the point for the Minister. Benches. In 2016, £350 million per week was promised There is a crisis in social care, and we have all got that; to the NHS once we left the European Union. We have we all have constituents come to us begging for social left the EU, but what has happened to the £18 billion? care. They are really concerned about having to sell Should the NHS not automatically expect that money, their home, but sometimes it is about not being able to given that on 1 January we left the EU? get into a care home or get the care at home they need. Most social care should be delivered in the home where Sir Edward Leigh: It is very nice to be intervened on people live. The reality is that there simply is not a by somebody who has no chance of forming a Government. proposal in this so-called “plan” to give local authorities I am afraid that all this talk of a wealth tax or a tax that money that is needed to both fund the existing gap on dividends does not even begin to meet the problem. and to extend social care to the many people who have If we have a wealth tax, what happens in respect of two been denied it because of the cuts in the past few years. old-age pensioners who have almost no income and just Furthermore, the alternatives will be: bigger rises in have a capital asset? Is it fair— council tax—the Government have almost signalled that in this report; or further devastating cuts to other Jake Berry: Does my right hon. Friend accept that services received by most of our constituents, who do this may be a fairer system if those in receipt of a not get social care but have to pay for it. This is a recipe pension but not working were asked to contribute to it for disaster. Eventually, when it works through, everyone in some way? Let us consider the position of people will see that there is no plan for social care here, because who are going to work in Tesco in Haslingden—it is in there is no funding for social care that will deliver the the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for sort of social care system we all want to see. Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe), but on the border with mine—and are struggling to buy school shoes for their 3.11 pm kids or pay their mortgage. Why should they pay so that Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): For a low-tax a relatively well-off pensioner does not have to? Conservative, it is relatively easy to attack this measure— indeed, I could spend my entire five minutes doing so. I Sir Edward Leigh: May I say to my right hon. Friend could quote the fates of previous conservative Governments, that he gave one of the best speeches this afternoon? It whether led by President George Bush in America or was thoughtful and incisive, and at least he is trying to John Major here,who have put up taxes dramatically—John develop an alternative argument. The Government—this Major did so in a recession—and been punished at the is the problem with being in government—are faced polls. It is relatively easy to attack this measure but with a crisis now and they have to find the money now. much more difficult to provide an alternative.The manifesto Regretfully, nobody has come up with a better plan point need not be laboured. Labour produced a manifesto than this. I am no toady to the Government, and I say with all sorts of spending promises in 2005 and, arguably, to them that I do not think they can solve these problems they had more chance of foreseeing the global crash in by our constantly becoming a tax-and-spend party, as the markets that followed during that Parliament than that is simply not going to wash. we ever had in foreseeing a pandemic. So I do not think Wehave been spending money like there is no tomorrow. the manifesto attack holds water. I know there is a pandemic on, but the furlough scheme I declare an interest, as it has always been a principle is riddled with corruption. I know from massive anecdotal that once someone reaches pensionable age they get evidence in my constituency that many companies are their state pension and do not go on paying national ripping us off left, right and centre. So the Government 353 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 354 have to have more of a vision that they articulate: that Gentleman and I agree—he is a former Chair of the we accept that there is a pandemic, that the NHS is in Public Accounts Committee, and I have the honour of crisis and that we have to do something about care being the current Chair—is that it is vital that we homes, but we do have a plan to control public spending. measure the effectiveness of every pound of taxpayers’ I know that the Chief Secretary agrees with me, but he money spent against delivery for citizens and taxpayers. may not want to leap to the Dispatch Box to say that This proposal fails woefully on that. now, especially as a reshuffle is imminent. This is another headline from the Government with There are innovative solutions we can use to try to no detail attached. Parliament has been bounced, but encourage people to take more control of their healthcare. even the Prime Minister’s party and Cabinet were not John Major was hardly a fanatical right-wing Conservative, involved in the decisions about how the money is to be but he offered tax relief to pensioners who took out raised and what it will be spent on. It is clearly an healthcare—we have never even considered that. The announcement without a plan. There is no plan, other argument could be made that rather than having arbitrary than to put money into the NHS for three years. We all limits such as £86,000, we could base this on the value recognise the need there,but the message is being deliberately of the house. So there are alternatives available. muddled. Where is the plan for care workers? Nothing. I wish to articulate one thing before I sit down, and it Where is the plan for skills for care workers? Nothing. relates to state insurance. I am trying to develop an Where is the plan for a stable market? There are alternative plan in the future. We know what Germany 25,000 or so care providers or residential care properties does and we know that it has an excellent system. Lord in the UK, mostly small, private providers. Their market Lilley argued yesterday in a paper, and the Dilnot had been shaken to the core before covid, but covid has commission argued, that there is an alternative to all really wracked them hard, and there is no support, plan this. The Government dismiss private insurance or promise—anything—for them. What about the money straightaway. It is true that private insurance companies for local authorities? I completely associate myself with will not take over this burden alone, because they the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield cannot foresee how many people will be very frail and South East (Mr Betts) earlier and a number of stay in care homes for a long time. But why can we not Conservatives yesterday, including my constituency have a system by which we underwrite private insurance? neighbour, the hon. Member for Cities of London and The state would offer insurance. Once someone is of Westminster (Nickie Aiken). There is also no plan on pensionable age, they would enter the scheme. There domiciliary care; more of us will receive care in the would be a modest charge on their home, based on the home than in institutions. value of the home. The premium, on average, would be This proposal is about protecting the capital assets of covered by the Government, not by the person. On the wealthiest. I am a London MP, and this proposal average, it would be £16,000 a year and it would be the will protect a lot of people in London who are like me: a covered by the Government, but that individual would homeowner in London with a wealthy asset for whom have that peace of mind. That is an innovative scheme. £86,000 is a small percentage of the home I own. The It was suggested by the Dilnot commission. I do not right hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake understand why the Government have simply just ruled Berry) made an excellent speech highlighting the real it out and said, “We have looked at private insurance challenge in this respect. I worry that the Government and it simply will not wash.” are using this proposal as another opportunity to try to Many of us will be supporting the Government buy votes in London for the next London mayoral tonight—I know it is a bit of a cliché to say, “With a election. Nothing seems to stop them in their ability to heavy heart”. We will be doing so because we recognise attack our London Mayor and try to buy people in. We that the NHS is in crisis. However, we say to the have to make sure we have a policy for the whole Government: “When you just pump more and more country. money into a socialist construct like the NHS, you get There are not even any targets for the NHS funding lower and lower productivity. So we want to look at that is going in. The Minister came to the House and outcomes. We don’t want to just accept this argument rattled through his speech at pace without answering that we are in an arms race with the Labour party, any of these important questions. It is important that because they will always offer more than us.” So we we tackle the NHS backlog, but with £12 billion a year want some answers from the Government on serious on a base NHS budget of around £150 billion—of plans for the future and on controlling waste and low course, during the pandemic it has gone up by around productivity in the NHS. We want to know how much £60 billion—that is still going to be a challenge. We of this money will actually go into the care home need to make sure we are getting outcomes and we need system. We can then vote for the Government with an to measure them. The Secretary of State for Health and easier conscience. Social Care himself admits that he does not know whether tackling the backlog will be possible in three 3.19 pm years; I think it will be a huge challenge. Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) Let us look at the challenge on finances. By 2038, (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. compared with 2018, there is a projected 90% increase Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), who in costs for adult social care for those aged 18 to 64 and made a thoughtful speech, but I have to take issue with a 106% increase in costs for adults over 65, so of course him about the Labour Government pumping money something needs to be done. The Public Accounts into the NHS and it going nowhere. Which party set Committee has looked repeatedly at the social care targets for things such as A&E waiting times and the market, of which the Department of Health and Social reduction of waiting lists and achieved them while in Care has responsibility for oversight. That includes government? The Labour party. Where the right hon. looking at skills and the supply of places, but it has 355 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 356

[Dame Meg Hillier] It is absolute, complete and utter tosh. At the end of the day, our constituents look to us for guidance and to try woefully failed—it has failed on drug prices and on to solve their problems. They do not really care where making sure that the market and the workers in it are we come from in life and what we end up doing; at the skilled up properly. Of course, there was also the woeful end of the day, that is what they want us to do. failure on personal protective equipment, where the Public Accounts Committee concluded, in—of course—a Several hon. Members rose— cross-party report, that care homes had been “thrown to the wolves” because of what happened. Sir Mike Penning: No, I am not doing to give way, because lots of other colleagues want to speak and The inequality really bites. As others have highlighted, every time I give way, I get an extra minute—and I have wealthy pensioners on good private pensions will not just lost half a minute by saying that. pay an extra penny. That includes those who have retired early because of the Osborne pension reforms. We can say to ourselves, “Is this perfect?” No, it is Senior civil servants and so on who are able to retire at not. Is this going to help? Yes, it is. Are more people 55 on a full pension can then work again, and they may going to pay more in taxation? Have we broken a pay money on their new earnings but not on their manifestocommitment?Yes—andGovernmentsinprevious pension. They are earning way more in their pension Administrations have done that for years, and that than the minimum wage and will not pay an extra penny happens when the public expect us to act on something from that. that has come literally out of the blue. What has come out of the blue? Covid. Wehave had to borrow unbelievable In my constituency, we have more private renters amounts of money to keep people’s, jobs, incomes and than homeowners and more people who rent socially livelihoods going. We cannot keep doing that, so we than either of those two options. They do not have have to turn around and say, “Is there a way?” assets that need to be protected; they need the insurance We heard from the Chair of the Treasury Committee to get good social care. They do not have income from that there are myriad other ways to deal with this issue. assets that they will ever benefit from. Of course, many Wehave also heard the minutiae of how national insurance of the people who do own their own homes have contributions come into it, but at the end of the day it interest-only mortgages. A whole generation is coming seems that national insurance is probably the way to do through—generation rent—without an asset, worrying it. I have one criticism. In my constituency, we still have about whether they can afford to pay into a pension and more than 12,000 council properties. Many of those unable to afford today’s rent. This proposal just hammers residents want to buy their property on right to buy. that generation to the benefit of people like me—as I They cannot do so because the maximum discount move through my 50s towards retirement—who have an means that the mortgage is still too large. Having just asset. This proposal does not work. There is no plan. over an £80,000 cap is not fair nationally. It is really difficult if someone has a property below that level. In 3.25 pm parts of the country, £86,000 will buy such a property, Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con): This is but in my constituency, that money would buy a quarter a massively important debate on a subject that comes of a one-bedroom flat. That has to be wrong, so we into our constituency surgeries every week—it has done need to look at how we address the issues that were since the day I came into this House, and did when I raised by colleagues earlier. was working for Sir Teddy Taylor all those years ago. I have one further thing to say. Frankly, anybody This is not new. What is new is a Government attempting watching this debate, especially the earlier engagements, to address it. I sat on the Opposition Front Bench for would have been disgusted by what they saw—partisanship, four and a half years as a shadow Health Minister. chips on the shoulder, class war, this war, that war. Previous Governments have looked at this issue and People do not give a monkey’s about that. They want us tried, but at the end of the day, to be really honest, to come here and do a job, which is to help them and Conservative and Labour Governments have kicked the their loved ones. It is about time Opposition Members can down the road. So for once, we are trying. Is it got off their butts and did it. perfect? No, it is not going to be perfect. I will come in a moment to a couple of points that I agree with my 3.29 pm colleagues on. Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab): Yesterday, What we cannot do is keep borrowing. Markets are the Prime Minister said that universal social care would low; we can keep borrowing. We could go to that be too expensive. That is exactly what the Conservatives wonderful private finance initiative market that previous said about the NHS in 1945 when they voted against it Labour Administrations went to and that we are still 21 times. They have argued that since and they will do paying for now. Lord Darzi came up with a fantastic so again if given the chance, as we heard from the right plan for how to deal with elective surgery in the market hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) without having over-capacity in the NHS. The only who, just minutes ago, described the NHS as a “socialist problem was that contracts were issued that meant that construct”. these companies were being paid even though they were A universal need demands a universal and freely not doing the operations. So nothing is perfect and accessible solution. None of us knows with certainty everybody wants to try. what will happen in our lives. Through disability, illness It is very easy to be in opposition and throw the can and old age, many of us will come to rely on social care across—that is what Oppositions do—but when the if we do not do so already. The care we receive should crunch comes, these are the hard decisions. I am a fiscal not be a lottery based on wealth and postcode. We Conservative and a working-class Tory, so I love all this should all have the security of knowing that there will class rubbish that keeps being thrown across the Chamber. be someone to look after us no matter what. The 357 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 358

NHS is there for all of us if and when we need it from mum brings home less than the minimum wage? How the cradle to the grave. It has long been time for the many more disabled and elderly people will be confined social care system to provide the same. to their homes, unable to live the kind of life they want? We need a national care service funded by progressive Anything less than a national care service, funded by a taxation, including a wealth tax. The Prime Minister’s tax on the wealthy, not low-paid— plans could not be further from that. Even the free market Adam Smith Institute condemned them as “morally Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I call bankrupt”, saying that the Government was asking Bim Afolami. “poorer workers to bail out millionaire property owners.” That comes just weeks before the Chancellor will plunge 3.35 pm hundreds of thousands of families into poverty with his Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): It is a universal credit cuts. pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham Mr Deputy Speaker, you would struggle to design a East (Nadia Whittome), but I must disagree with her more unfair and economically illiterate social care policy that the Government are kicking the can down the if you tried. Less than £1 in every £6 of the money road. We are doing precisely the opposite by trying to raised will go to social care in the first three years of the tackle what is a very difficult problem, as everybody has plan. It is a triple whammy that the Government are already described. As many Members have said, politics presenting us with today: nowhere near enough money; is about choices. Ultimately, the choice is this: either we not ringfenced for social care; and low-paid workers are put more money into the social care system and borrow funding it. extra; or we decide not to tackle the problem, and allow Why is it that Amazon is paying only 7.5% of its it to continue and continue. I wholeheartedly support income in tax while a graduate on a standard starting the Government in trying to tackle what has been a very salary is expected to give up around 50%? Let us be difficult problem for a very long time. clear what this is really about; it is about protecting the I thought it would be useful to address in my remarks inheritances of the very wealthy.What is the Government’s some of the criticisms of the plan that need pushing excuse for raising taxes on struggling people and for back on rather strongly. Many speakers have said that it breaking their manifesto pledge? It is covid-19. We have would be better to use income tax, not national insurance. heard it again and again today. I have seen at first hand, I disagree, because national insurance is paid by both as have my former colleagues in Nottingham, how individuals and employers; it is a broader-based tax, social care was in crisis well before the pandemic, and which raises more money. And guess what? By having a this Government cannot use covid-19 as a cover for broader-based tax, everybody is going to benefit. It is 11 years of Tory failings, and they cannot use it as an not bad to have a more broadly-based system, where excuse to take money from those who have been on the everybody in the country is going to benefit. frontline and not from the billionaires who have profited Certain Opposition Members have said that a wealth from the pandemic, increasing their wealth by more tax on the wealthy, in and of itself, will somehow fix all than a fifth. the problems. I am afraid that we are dealing with When I use the word “plan”, I am being generous. billions of pounds—£12 billion, £13 billion or £14 billion— This is not a plan. It does nothing to fix the system that and no wealth tax in the world has been designed to is broken at its core. A constituent emailed me about yield anything like that amount, so that would not deal her experience. She is a care worker in the community. with the problem. Her wages have not increased for four years. She does Many Members have suggested that this levy does not get any travel expenses, pension contributions or not deal with social care at all. The point is that it deals sick pay. She works extremely long hours to make ends with both health and social care; they are linked. Therefore, meet and often earns less than the minimum wage once by accelerating money in the next 18 months to two years she factors in travel and expenses. At the same time, her to deal with the backlogs that have developed in the mum is terminally ill and has been waiting for five health system due to covid, we actually help to deal weeks to get support. She wants to be with her mum in with the social care problem. Then, as is very clear in her final weeks, but she is doubtful that she will be able the documents, from October 2023 more money will to afford to get time off. Sadly, disgracefully, her story is flow more directly into the social care system, so the not unusual, because our social care system does not levy deals with both these things. work for those who rely on it or for those who are It is worth addressing the point made by many colleagues employed in it. on the Government Benches—including my constituency Instead of grappling with these deep-rooted problems, neighbour, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel this Government are yet again, as the right hon. Member Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning), and others—that this is for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) admitted, somehow unfair because certain parts of the country, kicking the can down the road. Instead of giving our such as my own, have higher house prices and others care workers the pay rise that they deserve—[Interruption.] have lower house prices. That is an observable fact. Will Government Members be quiet while we talk about However, there are many problems with doing something the service that care workers have given during the much more complicated. First, it would be difficult pandemic? They deserve a pay rise, but instead Members somehow to change a system on the basis of fluctuating on the Government Benches will be voting tonight to house prices in every county, region or district council. make sure that care workers are paying so that their It is also difficult to come up with those differences wealthy donors do not have to. when, yes, certain areas have higher house prices, but How much longer must my former colleagues in the then there are also higher costs for social care in different care sector wait for change? How many more families parts of the country.It is much better to have a broad-based will be consigned to poverty because their care worker system that is broadly the same across the country, 359 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 360

[Bim Afolami] will never get the opportunity to buy a house; to hit the self-employed struggling to get back on their feet, many although I am in agreement with certain hon. Friends of them ignored by this Government during the pandemic; that the Government should look at all possible options to hit employers struggling to get their businesses back in detail as we look to implement the tax. on track who now face a tax on jobs; and to hit the I turn to the idea about which I have heard so much low-paid battling to keep life and limb together who from Opposition Members: that this tax is somehow will end up subsidising others whose assets they can not progressive, but regressive. They think that if they never hope to match. keep repeating that, it will make it true. I took a look at Only last year, the Government were boasting about companies. Let us think about big companies versus raising the national insurance threshold and now they small companies. The smallest 40% of companies will are squeezing the very same people. What happened to pay nothing extra as a result of this measure. The next the promise to raise the threshold to £12,500 by the end 40% will pay, on average, about £400 more. The smallest of this Parliament? This is money to pay for two things: businesses are really not going to be paying a lot of first, to subsidise those who hope to inherit large properties national insurance. from elderly relatives; and secondly, to cover for the Let us turn to individuals and consider the richest disastrous cuts in the NHS over the period the Tories individuals. Somebody who earns a very high amount—let have been in office. Even on their own reckoning, only us say £1 million a year—will, by my maths, be paying about £5.3 billion of this tax grab will ever make it to £12,500 extra as a result of this measure. A basic rate social care. We were promised that a plan was ready, taxpayer pays something like £3.40 a week. I am afraid that it was a priority, that the PM would get cracking to say to the Opposition that this is a progressive, fair within his first 100 days, and that it would fix the crisis and broad-based way of dealing with the problem. in social care once and for all—none of it true. In addition, we need to think about outcomes. Members Age UK estimates that there are about 1.5 million on both sides of the House have made the fair point people in need of help with daily living who do not get that the money, in and of itself, does not deal with the it. This tax rise will not address those issues. It will not problem. Yes, we need better pay for carers. Yes, the help people needing help with washing, dressing, eating system needs to be better. Yes, we need to be sure about and taking their medicines. This is a broken tax promise: what we are getting with the money. Yes, there needs to a penalty for those who took a chance on voting Tory at be reform. We should study all that, and work with the the last election. On social care, it is a fiction and a Government over the next few weeks and months as the deception from people whose promises will never again White Paper comes out. I will be supporting the be given any credence. Government in the Lobby this evening. 3.39 pm 3.44 pm Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) want to begin by congratulating the Government Whips (Con): I very much welcome the fact that the Government on bulldozing this proposal through with such great are taking action to properly fund social care and the haste. They have done their job today.They have prevented NHS in this country. As my right hon. Friend the a Back-Bench rebellion. They have used their own Back Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) Benchers as cannon fodder. It will not be the charlatan said, previous Governments and previous Prime Ministers in No. 10 who pays the price for broken promises and have recognised the challenge of funding social care tax rises that hit the young and the low-paid; it will be and the NHS, but it is this Prime Minister and this those Tory MPs hung out to dry: some of them unexpected Government who are taking the brave step of bringing victors in 2019, and some of them quite good MPs, but forward concrete proposals to address it. with small majorities. When the emails and the messages We have heard much over the past few days and the of complaint start flooding into their offices, and when past few hours from those on the Scottish National the refusals ever to vote Tory again start to hit home, it party Benches about how horrified they are by these will not be the occupant of No. 10 who has to suffer—he proposals to increase funding for Scotland’s NHS. will have flitted on to his next fantasy—but those who Astonishingly, they seem to oppose the billion pounds are betraying the very people who voted for them. They of extra funding that Scotland’s NHS will benefit from will be left to pay the price. this year. It is astonishing. I just do not understand how they can possibly explain that to their constituents and Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con): I am very grateful justify such an irrational decision. for the hon. Gentleman’s concern about our future job prospects, but I would much rather be standing for a party that is willing to invest in the NHS, to be the party Alison Thewliss: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? of the NHS, and to try to fix the problems in social care. I would much rather have those job prospects than be a John Lamont: I am happy to hear from the hon. Back-Bench Labour MP who stands for nothing, has Member why she has made that choice. no plan and has weak leadership. Alison Thewliss: As the hon. Gentleman well knows Steve McCabe: Well, that was a wonderful intervention. and as has been made clear to him in the remarks I The hon. Gentleman has not only been hung out to dry; made, funding for the NHS is not the issue here; the he has been brainwashed in the process. issue is raising taxes disproportionately on the backs of This is a measure built on deception. There was a his and my poorest constituents. I would be interested promise of no tax rise or national insurance rises, yet to hear what he will tell his constituents when they come this is a tax rise to hit young workers; to hit people who to his surgery about it. 361 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 362

John Lamont: These proposals will result in Scotland’s extra funding from the UK Government to help address NHS and services that our constituents use getting a that and to tackle the social care crisis, the SNP says no. billion pounds extra each year to help deal with the The SNP says no to extra funding for Scotland’s NHS. backlog of treatment, the GP shortages and the whole catalogue of other issues that Scotland’s NHS is dealing Dr Whitford: Rubbish. with. It is nonsense to pretend that social care is not an issue in Scotland as much as it is in the rest of the John Lamont: The hon. Lady says “rubbish”. Should United Kingdom. Indeed, the SNP Scottish Government I say “rubbish” to my constituents who have had their in Edinburgh has called for action on social care in the operations delayed time and again and those who cannot past. They have said that they intended to increase get access to a GP in their surgery because of decisions investment in social care in Scotland, but they have also made by the Scottish Government, who blame a lack of been clear that their plans required extra resources. resource and repeatedly blame the UK Government for Their planned reforms not funding them enough? Here we have it: £1 billion “can only be delivered with increased investment.” more coming to Scotland and the SNP says no. It is Their independent review of adult social care said typical SNP grievance politics. It is not about solutions or making the lives of our constituents better; it is “more money will need to be spent on adult social care over the long term.” about grievance, grievance and more grievance. The NHS in all four parts of the UK needs significant Further to that, Audit Scotland recognised that “more investment to tackle the lasting effects that covid-19 has investment is needed”. The Scottish Government admitted had on services and we must work as one United in their August 2021 consultation that the proposals for Kingdom to tackle the collective challenge. a new national care service were not yet funded. It is also true that the SNP Scottish Government have Dr Whitford: In Scotland, as I said earlier, we not prioritised investment in the NHS during their time already spend 43% per head more on social care. If the in office. As I referenced earlier, the IFS has noted that, hon. Gentleman is moaning about Scotland, he can in the last 10 years, spend on health in Scotland has perhaps imagine the problem here. Scotland has a increased by just 1.2% as a proportion of total expenditure plan: the Feeley review, the national care service, a compared with 3.6% in England on a like-for-like basis. human rights approach and extending free personal Therefore, despite all the spin we hear from SNP Members, care and free provision to all home care. What we are Scotland’s NHS needs this extra investment. not happy about is the idea that suddenly the Prime Some in the SNP have been complaining that the Minister will meddle in a completely devolved area of policy is some sort of attack on the devolution settlement. health and social care, and we will have the same That is utter, utter nonsense. It is true that devolved outsourcing and fragmentation that England has struggled Administrations will be required by law to spend their with since 2012. share of the revenue raised by the levy on health services in 2022-23 and, from April 2023, on health and social John Lamont: Nothing in this plan undermines the care services. It is also true that some elements of the devolution settlement. This plan provides our constituents new revenue will be spent directly by the UK Government with more investment for NHS services across Scotland. for the benefit of all four nations, including on purchasing What the hon. Lady seems most upset about is this vaccines to help defeat the virus. However, there is no United Kingdom Government delivering that resource requirement for the Scottish Government to implement for something that the Scottish Government had previously the same policies as the UK Government. The devolution asked for,and she admits that, which is frankly astonishing. settlement is protected. So the SNP is really going to It is beyond belief that the SNP opposes these proposals, oppose this extra funding coming to Scotland’s NHS which would raise much-needed extra resources for the and social care services. NHS and the social care sector in Scotland. Scotland, I very much welcome the announcement. It has been Wales and Northern Ireland will benefit by an additional a tough decision for the Prime Minister and the £2.2 billion a year as a result of the levy and an Government, but it is the right decision. More funding equivalent increase to dividend tax rates. for our NHS and social care services should be welcomed There is a clear Union dividend from this policy. by everyone in the House. It baffles me completely why Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, taken together, the SNP so strongly opposes it. will benefit around 15% more than is generated from their residents, equivalent to around £300 million a 3.52 pm year. The hon. Ladies and Gentlemen on the SNP Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): This national insurance Benches shake their heads. How on earth can they increase is a point of no return for the Tories. It is an justify opposing this extra money coming into Scotland? unfair way to raise the money needed for our NHS and Scotland will receive £1.1 billion in extra funding over social care, with those who earn the least and the young the coming year. paying for those who are already well off. It is the We must ask why the SNP is so opposed to this extra biggest single tax increase in 70 years, which will see the money coming to Scotland and our NHS. That is highest level of tax paid in the UK in peacetime, and as certainly what my constituents in the Scottish borders my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East are asking. They have witnessed the remarkable job that (Mr Betts) pointed out, the Government’s own document our NHS heroes have been doing during the covid-19 says there is more to come in council tax increases. We pandemic, but they also recognise the massive challenges have already had increases and precepts imposed on now facing Scotland’s NHS: delayed operations, GPs council tax. When the Tories got caught out because under pressure, rural health services being withdrawn they cut 20,000 police officers, they put a levy on and waiting lists growing and growing. Yet, when offered council tax to pay for police officers and this year they 363 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 364

[Clive Efford] sold her house during the time of the last Labour Government. I had another family member who had a put on a 3% levy—£600 million—to go into social care. bad back, but did not want to bother the NHS at the They have had their hands in people’s pockets for time; unfortunately, it was a lot more serious than that. several years now and they have not taken them out. We do not want that to continue indefinitely. Particularly Let us be clear: the claim that the Tories are the party after a pandemic—and this is why I asked my question of low taxes and a small state is over. The argument in to the Prime Minister earlier—we do not want people the future will be about how we invest in public services holding back their concerns and their needs from their and how we value the workers who work in them. GPs and the NHS, with this feeling that they should not People earning as little £10,000 will pay the increase. bother them because it is under so much stress. People who can afford to pay more, such as hon. I am so pleased that the Government are grappling Members on these Benches, should not rely on them to with these really long-term intractable problems. It is pay increased taxes: they should be asked to pay their important and it has a real impact on our lives—all of fair share. People who have to count every penny to our lives.But exceptional circumstances require exceptional survive on a daily basis—to buy food and to pay rent, measures and hard decisions. They are difficult decisions travel costs and household bills—have to budget day by for all of us on the Government side of the House who day to live and they will have to tighten their belts, but believe—and our beliefs have not changed—that taxes those of us on higher incomes who could pay more and should be as low as possible, that services should be whose lives will not be changed by this increase will not available to all, but that the state should do as little as have to tighten our belts at all. possible because people do things for themselves better My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly than the state. There is no easy answer, and I welcome Oak (Steve McCabe) pointed out one of the areas that the difficult decisions that this Government are taking. will suffer most. It is those areas where the Tories talk Tolead is to choose, and that is what we are doing—making about levelling up that will be the hardest hit by this tax difficult decisions. increase. What of their local economies, with the tax the I commend the comments of my right hon. Friend Government are taking out of those economies that the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), the Chair will not be there to be spent in local businesses? There is of the Treasury Committee, who evaluated the alternatives. no levelling up in this tax the Tories are imposing, and Alternatives such as austerity and spending cuts are not there will be less money to circulate in those economies. welcome and would also be criticised. There is increased It is not fair that those people we clapped during borrowing. This Government put their hands around covid—care workers, delivery workers, shop workers, this nation during the pandemic and spent £400 billion postmen and postwomen, and many more who kept our to protect people’sjobs and livelihoods.However,increased economy going during difficult circumstances—will be borrowing also has a profound effect on the lives of asked to pay a disproportionate amount through this individuals, because it has a profound effect on the tax increase. economy and its future prospects. I absolutely reject the There is no going back for the Tories from this day proposition that this is the end of conservatism, or that forward. Whatever happened to the pledge the Prime this means our principles have changed, because it does Minister made in 2019 that no one would have to sell not. Because we are responsible, pragmatic, realistic, their home to pay for care and that he would co-operate and willing to lead, I believe people will understand. If across the House and discuss the way forward on how we say to people that there is a need and we are going to to deal with the issue of social care? That is yet another address it, but that there is no cost, they will know that broken promise from this Prime Minister. If a person is is not true, nor is it honest. property rich and cash poor, how are they going to be As Conservative Members have said, we want innovation able to avoid having to sell their homes? The £86,000 is and a determination that the NHS does not become the a Kensington cap. Outside London, in many areas the insatiable beast that swallows up funds indefinitely, and cap is far too high and will lead to people losing their we must keep a grip on that. It is important that that homes. goes hand in hand with innovation and reorganisation There is no plan for social care in what the Government to make this work, and to make it as efficient as possible have announced so far. The Tories have behaved here for all people in this country, and across the United today as if these problems had just been created and Kingdom. had just emerged because of the pandemic, but nothing I welcome these measures. They are not easy, but this could be further from the truth. The waiting list was is the job we are here to do, so I welcome the Government’s 2 million before the pandemic hit, and they took £8 billion initiative and their implementation of them. out of social care. Where was all the hand-wringing and all the concern about social care and the NHS back 4.1 pm then? They are using the pandemic as cover for 10 years of cutting public services and underfunding our national Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab): Many who voted health service. How are they going to explain to their for Brexit in the hope of securing £350 million a week constituents that they are being forced to pay this for the NHS, or who voted for the Conservative party in increase to pay for 10 years of Tory neglect? the belief that taxes would not be raised, must feel very disillusioned. Today, just nine months since leaving the EU, and after another Johnson broken promise, they 3.57 pm are being taxed to pay for health and social care. In Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): I am recent months, the Prime Minister has broken promises sure that, like many constituents, many of us across this on the foreign aid budget, on his commitment that there House have personal experience of the need for these would be no checks on goods moving between Great measures. In my family, a much-loved family member Britain and Northern Ireland, and on the triple lock on 365 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 366 pensions. We all understand the impact of the pandemic, care system we have, and yes, the enormous backlog of but it should not be used as a shield to mask the Prime cases that has arisen must be tackled. Therefore, of Minister’s broken promises. His promise to fix social course more cash is needed. care once and for all predated the pandemic. Indeed, we I fundamentally believe in incentivising and rewarding have waited more than two years for the plan, which the hard work, in allowing people to keep more of the Prime Minister promised the nation in his first speech money they earn, and that people know better than the was “already prepared”, to materialise. state how to spend their own money. A low-tax economy The 2019 manifesto also committed the Conservatives is a buoyant economy, and I hope that when this is all to deliver a social care plan through consensus and with over, we can revert to proper Conservative economic cross-party support. People are asking what happened policy. Any MP would say that healthcare features to that consensus. Instead, the Prime Minister is pushing uppermost in their inbox. The struggles to access a GP, this grossly unfair tax through Parliament, allowing as the waiting lists, the cancelled operations, the waiting little time as possible for proper scrutiny—the kind of times in A&E and the quality of care are all raised with scrutiny that improves legislation. Because of the us day in, day out, and they have very human consequences. Government’s woeful mishandling of the pandemic, It may be that this is more of an issue in Telford than allowing the NHS and care workers to face the biggest elsewhere. We have a particularly challenged hospital crisis in their history, with the NHS in the depleted state trust and clinical commissioning group, and some very to which it was reduced after successive Tory Governments serious problems have arisen during my time as MP. stripped £8 billion from the service, much more money The trust is now in special measures, it is facing a police is now needed for health and social care. investigation into maternity deaths, and there has been With waiting lists predicted to reach 13 million, even a constant revolving door of highly paid senior managers with this money it will take the health service years to who do not seem to be able to grasp some of the catch up. The working public are now expected to challenges.Wehave a GP super-surgery with 60,000 patients stump up more money for Tory mismanagement of that has long operated telephone triage. Even pre-covid, health and social care, and working-class and middle-class people could not get the phone answered, so they have workers will bear the 10% national insurance tax hike. no option but to go to A&E and face huge waits. It is The Prime Minister’s plan boils down to this: using the fair to say that it is completely understandable that taxes of young and low-paid workers without assets to Telford residents will always put the NHS as their No. 1 protect the assets of wealthy people. Raising regressive concern. Wehave also had grand transformational schemes national insurance, which takes money from the pockets devised by hospital management to spend £600 million of the lowest-paid workers, many of whom have been of Government money. They have had seven years of on the frontline of the pandemic, is not the way to fix thinking about it, and they still have not been able to our social care system. I hope that the Prime Minister put a shovel in the ground. will listen to the many rational voices in business and I have never been one to believe that throwing cash at industry, including the British Chambers of Commerce, a problem will provide a solution. We have a duty to which said that his plan will be ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent wisely, and that “a drag anchor on jobs growth” waste and bureaucracy are stripped out. We need to as firms emerge from the pandemic and furlough winds make clear that what we are approving today is no down. blank cheque and that we expect trusts, CCGs and their We need a national and fair effort to deal with the management to work to put patient care and the patient crisis in social care, and a plan that goes far wider than experience first. That has been lacking. I know that just looking at funding. Weneed to address the recruitment from my experience and my constituents’ experience. and retention crisis in health and social care, which is They are so often treated as a nuisance or with contempt. the most urgent issue at present. It is vital that any That must stop, and this money will help that to happen. long-term plans are included alongside immediate measures. I want my constituents to have far, far better patient We must properly value those in our health and social care than they currently receive and I know they want care workforce, not tax them to the hilt. to see extra cash spent. They will expect improvements, and I caution that this is not the time to be removing the 4.5 pm A&E or other local services from Telford. Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): I thank the Prime Minister, The motion before us today is a much-needed first the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Health step that I welcome fully. I congratulate my right hon. and Social Care for bringing forward this proposal. It is Friends the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the a bold decision—a difficult decision—but it is the right Health Secretary for being bold, for being ambitious for decision at the right time. our future and for being willing to embrace the big challenges that others have failed to seize. They have my Initially, I really struggled with this concept. When full support, and I hope that all Members on the the Prime Minister stood up to deliver his statement Government Benches will also be able to support our yesterday, I did not expect to feel able to support it, but leaders. by the time he sat down, I could. That is not just because the PM has excellent rhetorical skills; it is down to the simple and obvious fact that most people want 4.10 pm better health and care provision. Most people understand LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): the challenges created by covid and the devastating When I first heard that the Prime Minister was going to impact on the NHS. Most people want to see money come forward with a plan for social care, to tell the spent on the NHS, and they expect everybody to make a truth I am so desperate for any improvement in social contribution—and so they should. Covid has brutally care that I even considered voting for it. Even until exposed what a fragile and struggling health and social yesterday I would have considered voting for it. As the 367 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 368

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle] This is also about the lack of a plan for social care. There is no plan for social care. In fact, we have been details came out, however, I was not only disappointed asked for a begging bowl, but we have not really been but completely devastated, as will be many of my told how the money is going to be spent. How are we constituents. Not only does the plan fail to deal with going to recruit social care workers, who are currently any of the real issues in social care, which I will come on paid miserable wages for 15-minute appointments and to in a second, but it is actually just a tax hike pretending no travel time? How are we going to reform the sector to deal with health and social care. In reality, at the so that is not fragmented between people? How is this beginning it is not even linked to that, and later on there going to improve someone’s grandmother’s care home is some vague promise that it might trickle down to or someone’s brother’s care worker? It is not, because social care if we are lucky. this does not deal with that fragmentation, it does not This is a tax rise that will hit the youngest, the poorest integrate social care into the NHS, which we desperately and the hardest working in our communities the hardest. need, and it does not relieve the burden on councils. At It exacerbates the crisis in intergenerational justice that the moment, the truth is that council tax has to subsidise we have in our society at the moment. Far too many social care time and again. People complain about the young people feel that the ladder is being whipped up roads, their parks or youth services being shut, but behind them by an older political generation that is the reality is that it is because the Government have not currently in power. I think that is sometimes unfair, dealt with funding social care properly. They have put because actually the issue is class-based and wealth-based, the burden on councils and council tax, which was but this will exacerbate that feeling. A young graduate never designed for social care, and this does not deal with student loans will be paying a marginal tax rate of with that fundamental problem. When people complain almost 50%, which is more than many people on £90,000 about their bins or potholes, I say to them, “It is not and vastly more than someone whose earnings are from your council’s fault. It is the fault of this Government, property, shares or other forms of wealth. failing to deal with that drain on your council.” There are other options. The Government had other This levy will not aid us one bit to close the gap that options. They could, of course, have lifted the lower has been growing. That gap will continue to grow under rate of national insurance into the higher rate. Most this Government. So holding my nose and desperately people do not realise—most hard-working people, of sad, I will unfortunately be voting against this, not course, do not earn £50,000 or more—that those earning because I think that we need no action, but because this more than £50,000 pay only 2% national insurance. action is the worst of all worlds. That could easily have been made 12%, or now included the additional for everyone. That would have provided 4.17 pm £14 billion in one stroke and not affected any hard-working Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I want to begin by person in our country. It would have already raised thinking through what Labour would do if it were in more than this non-existent plan. They could have power. [Interruption.] I am very grateful that the hon. looked at a wealth tax for people who have wealth Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) higher than £5 million, an amendment that I and other has just outlined some of the things that he might do. If colleagues tabled for today; capital gains reform to I understand the Labour Front Benchers correctly, I bring it in line with income tax, for example; or making think they suggested that they would use stamp duty or inheritance tax fair so it is based on what you receive, various transaction taxes on assets. I am grateful that not necessarily on what you give, so that those in large Ministers are here, because I think that they know, as I families can receive a fair amount while ensuring that know, that there is no way that the money needed would everyone pays their contribution. be raised—[Interruption.] I am grateful that the Minister None of those options were considered. Why? Because says, “Correct”. It says in the document that not enough this Conservative party is paid for by developers, landlords money would be raised from stamp duty and transaction and the very people this tax will not touch. It is a party taxes on assets. It is fanciful, and the hon. Gentleman’s not of capitalism, but of extraction: extracting the proposals are likewise, I am afraid. wealth from hard-working people and small and medium- We would need to change one of the big taxes. Would sized businesses, and redistributing it to landlords and Labour Members put up VAT from 20%? Of course capitalists who work in the stock market and in the they would not because it is regressive. It is a bad idea. City, not in the factories that run our country. It is already too high and it already hits everyone, so they would not put up VAT. Would they put up income Dr Andrew Murrison: I always listen very carefully to tax? I think they would get the same advice that these what the hon. Gentleman has to say. Why, then, does he Ministers have had from the same officials. I think they think that Gordon Brown did something remarkably might be advised that we are already in a position where similar to what my right hon. and hon. Friends are income tax is rather too dependent on the decisions of a proposing—on that occasion, in 2003—for exactly the small number of top earners. This is the sort of evidence same reason: to raise the spend on our national health we have had at the Treasury Committee for a very long service and care services? Was he wrong? time, so I think that we would find that, actually, they were not able to put up income tax. Lloyd Russell-Moyle: Because then, wages were growing So where would that leave Labour? That would leave and the economy and working people were doing better, it with the big tax that has always, as the document and now they are not. We are coming out of a pandemic. points out, been used to fund health and social care: Everyone has suffered and suddenly putting a tax on national insurance contributions. I think that Ministers, small and medium-sized businesses and on working if they were from Labour, would be presented with a people is the very last thing we need to do. distributional analysis like the one I have here, which 369 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 370 our Ministers have. Labour Ministers would look at it of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister; at one and see that actually, distributionally, it is really only point I think he said that they went against everything the top two deciles who are net losers. Deciles from the that he stood for. Wehave heard hon. Members say—there bottom through to No. 8 are either gaining or, in the are quotes on the internet from former Ministers and case of the eighth decile, right there in net overall, Cabinet members—that they hate raising taxes, but do neither gaining nor losing. I think that what Labour not see how they cannot vote for it. Tonight, colleagues would do if it was in power is what it did last time it was will say, with a good heart, “I just must,” because we all in power and needed money for the NHS: it would put know that we cannot let NHS waiting lists get to where up national insurance contributions. they are going as a result of the pandemic. Well, I know My constituents in Wycombe are very reasonable that too, but this I also know: we are going to have to do people. While knocking on doors in Marlow Bottom things differently. just last Saturday, I discovered constituents who recognise We have to rediscover our confidence as free market that we have suffered an enormous pandemic that has Conservatives and the radical reforming zeal of the done so much to damage the public finances and people’s 2010 Parliament and the big society. We have to show lives, as other hon. Members have said. But where are people that we can secure a bright, prosperous and free we going? That is the second point that I want to touch future that provides for their needs in their old age, but on. This is what I think Labour would do in power, and without coming back to higher taxes every time there is that is the problem—sorry, Ministers. a squeeze on the public finances. Down that road is If we look, as I am sure colleagues have done, at the ruin. We all know that eventually socialists run out of future debt trajectory for the United Kingdom produced other people’s money. by the Office for Budget Responsibility, we can see that I am sorry, Ministers, but I cannot vote with the our public finances are in an unsustainable state. I could Government tonight. Some of us have to be seen to easily give quotations—they are in my pocket—but if I stand for another path. recall correctly, the OBR’s 2018 report describes debt getting to about 260% by about 2057 and says something Several hon. Members rose— like, “Of course, policy would have to change by then.” Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Peter I have always taken that to be a euphemism for “Of Grant is next, and then the time limit will be reduced to course, we would have to default on our age-related four minutes. spending promises.” That is the consistent finding of the Office for Budget Responsibility on our long-term 4.23 pm public finances. Sooner or later—in all our lifetimes, Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): I am pleased to hopefully—we will find that the state cannot afford the contribute to this debate. As I listened to the hon. promises that it has made to older people. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) just now, the words That is the problem that we face today. It is not about that kept going through my mind were “Union dividend, the national insurance contribution rise planned today, Union dividend”—we are tied to a nation whose public which I believe is a levy that the Labour party would finances are in a mess, unsustainable and in a dreadful adopt if it were in power; the problem is that we have no state. better ideas than putting up taxes to raise more money Before I come on to the regressive nature of the for public services. Government’s proposal, I want to touch on just how far Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My hon. it falls short of the promises that the Prime Minister Friend makes the powerful point that this is what Labour and others made in order to get elected. They have would do in power. Why are we doing it as Conservatives? claimed that they have a plan to reform social care in England. It is obviously not for me to dictate what that Mr Baker: That is the fundamental problem that I plan should be, but if they have one, perhaps the Minister face today, because I believe that this is just the beginning will tell us what changes, if any, there will be in the of the generational crisis of our inability to fund the balance of resources between the NHS and social care. promises that have been made progressively for more What changes, if any, will there be to the arrangements than 100 years, since the National Insurance Act 1911. I to manage each individual’s needs as they make the have talked about it ad nauseam, particularly in relation transition from health to social care? What changes, if to a Bank for International Settlements paper that sets any, will there be to the balance in the provision of care out charts showing that all western welfare states, and for the elderly between residential and non-residential? indeed Japan, are in the same boat. Some of the cuts to What changes, if any, are planned to the balance of age-related spending that would need to be made to responsibility between the state and the family? balance the books are just implausible. There are no easy or right or wrong answers to any of We are in a dreadful position. Historically, when this those questions, but although I do not have the answers, country has been in a dreadful position economically I know that there are questions. The Prime Minister and socially and on a trajectory towards ruin, there has does not. I do not believe the Prime Minister even proven to be only one party capable of rescuing the recognises that any one of those questions must be situation, and of course it is the Conservative party. At faced up to before he can claim to have a plan, or even some stage in our lifetime, the Conservative party will the first hint of a plan, to deal with the position that we have to rediscover what it stands for, because I have to have, or some of us have, in social care. say that at the moment we keep doing things we hate The second major problem is that, even if the crisis in because we feel that we must. social care in England could be fixed with money alone, My hon. Friend the Minister for Covid Vaccine this proposal would not deliver anywhere near enough, Deployment stood at the Dispatch Box today and explained and most of the “not enough” is not going to social that vaccine passports go against his instincts and those care. A lot of it will go to benefit the families of some 371 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 372

[Peter Grant] way that honours the Scottish Government’s manifesto promises, and decisions being foisted on us in a failed care recipients—some, but not all; and guess which attempt to cover up the fact that the British Government some?—leaving precious little to actually improve the do not keep their promises, to the electorate or to service. To claim that anyone voting against this tax anyone else. hike today is voting against meaningful improvements If one of the Prime Minister’s heroes had been here to social care is simply untrue, and those who are today, he might well have observed that never had so preparing to make those claims on their Twitter accounts many promises been broken in such a short time to the know that what they are about to tweet is not true. detriment of so many and to the benefit of so few. I am in favour of increased funding for our health and social care services. If necessary, I will support fair 4.28 pm and progressive tax increases to fund them, and I will pay my share of those taxes quite happily. However, I Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con): This area of social will not support this proposal, because it is not fair and care has not had a happy history in respect of political it is not progressive. It discriminates against younger point scoring, and, unfortunately, we have seen plenty people with average incomes in favour of older people of that today on the Opposition Benches. However, it is with much higher incomes. It discriminates against people unacceptable for us to play Russian roulette with people’s who earn their money through their own hard work in life savings when it comes to social care. One in seven favour of people who earn their money through the people are going to be affected by this. Just because simple fact of having had plenty of it to begin with. It their loved one died of dementia rather than cancer, discriminates against my constituents in Glenrothes their life savings are being entirely wiped out. That is and Central Fife and in favour of those in places such not right, but it is right that we are doing something as the Prime Minister’s constituency, where, according about it, and I am glad that we are seeing some element to the Government’s own statistics, the average income of cross-party consensus on the model. It is the Dilnot per person is nearly £10,000 a year higher than what my model, and the Health and Social Committee, of which constituents have to get by on. I am a member, put it forward as a proposal. It was The Government have claimed—we have heard this supported by the Liberal Democrats when we were in in a number of Conservative contributions—that they government with them, and to a degree, I think, by the already know which of the UK’s nations will contribute Labour party. So at least we are moving forward slightly most to this tax hike, and which will benefit most. They in that regard. The real question now is how we pay for have claimed to have conducted an analysis which shows this. There has been a lot of confected indignation on that it is not regressive in terms of different income the other side of the House to cover up a lack of a plan. groups. Although our SNP amendment was not selected, National insurance is imperfect in many ways, but, as I expect to see the Government honour the spirit of that Tony Blair said: amendment, not by the end of the year but by the end “If we want sustained investment in the NHS over a period of of the week. I expect them to publish the analysis that time, we are going to have to pay for it.” we have asked for—or is this another case of their He suggested that national insurance was the fairest claiming to have all the information until they are asked and best way to do it. I agree with him, even if members for it, when we suddenly discover that it does not exist? of his own party do not seem to. Paul Johnson from the The final substantial objection to the Government’s Institute for Fiscal Studies says that proposal is that it is designed to grab powers away from “overall much needed reforms to social care are being introduced the democratically elected Governments of three of the and unavoidable pressures on the NHS are being funded through partners in this Union, and place them in the hands of a a broad based and broadly progressive tax increase. That is better Prime Minister who has no mandate to do this even in than doing nothing.” England. I have no issue with anyone allocating additional It is incumbent on Opposition Members to really look resources to Scotland, but I have a big issue with signing at themselves and to understand whether they think up to a regressive tax hike with no guarantee whatsoever real change is needed. If it is, they need to come up with that the Barnett consequentials will not be siphoned off a better alternative. Otherwise, they need to walk through as a result of some later Budget decision. Any guarantees the Lobby with Members on this side of the House who that we get from the Government today will be as are taking difficult decisions on behalf of our constituents. worthless as the promises that they made in their manifesto These are not easy decisions. They are not decisions in 2019. that can be explained away by saying that we are not Let me be clear: the SNP will continue to honour its doing this in a broad-based way when we are, or by manifesto commitments. Any Barnett consequentials making things up about this not being progressive when coming to Scotland as a result of increased spending on it is. We are taking these difficult decisions because that health or social care in England will be passed on in full is what the Conservatives do in a moment of crisis. to health and social care services in Scotland. But My colleague on the Select Committee, my hon. within that overarching guarantee, who do the Government Friend the Member for Peterborough (Paul Bristow), think has the mandate to decide exactly how Scotland’s was right to say that reform was needed. This is an health and social care funding is allocated? I doubt that awful lot of money that we are putting into a system there is a single person, even on the Tory Benches, who that is very broken. A third of social care staff leave honestly thinks it is right to assume that, because a every year and there are 120,000 vacancies in the sector. particular way of allocating funding might be right in We will need to up the quality of provision and to England, it is automatically right in the other three UK inspect it properly. We will need to ensure that the nations, where health and social care are organised in a integrated care services that are being put in place are completely different way. There is all the difference in assessed by the Care Quality Commission. We will also the world between allocating funding to be used in a need to ensure that local government is held to account 373 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 374 on the standards of care that it provides. These are all On the smoke and mirrors around the NHS settlement, important reforms. We need to ensure that social care is I spent most of my career in NHS management and I truly part of the NHS, so that a nurse can take a year to was part of the great improvement in health services go and work in the care service and then come back into under the last Labour Government. If we are really a hospital. These reforms will all be necessary to ensure going to start delivering on this, it will require a massive that we deliver on our high ambitions for change. We clinical and managerial effort to transform the legacy of are taking steps to make that change. We will ensure the pandemic and austerity in the health service, and to that the options available to families are of high quality change those waiting lists. and that they will not take away their life savings. We Politicians like to talk nicely to managers in private are taking difficult decisions, and the Opposition need conferences and then take pot shots at them the rest of to look at themselves and decide whether they are doing the time, but clearing the waiting lists is a massive the same. managerial and clinical challenge. The clerical and clinical validation of that list to help people move through the 4.32 pm care system will be a massive task, and they need Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab): For too long, support. successive Governments of all stripes have failed to The Prime Minister has a majority of 80 MPs. It is in grasp the nettle on social care reform. In fact, we have his gift to deliver a policy that could truly stand the test mostly failed to acknowledge that there was a nettle at of time. Having bitten the bullet and picked the fight, he all. That is largely because this burden overwhelmingly seems determined to squander the opportunity with the falls on women, and our voices have been silent. I will solution before us today. I urge him and the Government not rehearse all the debates that we have had, but this is to think again. He should seek to build the consensus this time to start something better. that could exist in this House on doing something truly When he came into office, the Prime Minister promised lasting after the terrible pandemic we have all been that he had “a plan” to fix social care in England. It is through. now clear that he did not. But—I say this with all sincerity—he has since started one, and he has brought 4.36 pm it to this place at some political risk. This is worthy of a sliver of credit in itself. But having brought these plans Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con): The question of forward, we now need an honest and thorough debate how to deal with the worsening social care problem has here and across the country about their merits and been put off for too long. Indeed, the Labour party deficiencies. Yesterday I said that the Prime Minister shunned its responsibility when in government and may have broken the dam, and he looked slightly confused. refused to make the difficult decisions to put social care That is because he thinks he has now fixed the problem. on a sustainable footing. The trio of the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Peter from Loughborough said in an email to me that Health Secretary looked very comfortable with themselves it is yesterday. They are very wealthy men. They seem to have heard something, but this has not fixed it. They “long overdue to try and fix the social care problem. Governments of both parties have pushed this into the long grass time after need to understand that behind the dam there is a time and it cannot be put off forever.” torrent of questions, costings and aspirations, none of which the Government seem prepared to acknowledge. The Conservative manifesto pledged to build cross-party consensus on an answer to solve the problem. Clearly, This motion does not represent a sustainable plan. this has not been possible. It has therefore been left to Instead, what we have is a shoddy push to nod through this Government to make the tough decisions, which I these changes without even paying lip service to the scrutiny know the Prime Minister has not made lightly as the that they need. Millions of families are hoping for Conservatives are the party of low tax. something else, and we must not give them false hope. That would be cruel and unnecessary. There is only one longer-term solution that we will need to inch our way Dr Whitford: I welcome the hon. Lady’s reference to towards in the coming months and years, and that is a the aim to create cross-party consensus. We have heard universal system based on the same NHS principles of that said repeatedly. I am the health and social care fair taxation based on the ability to pay and according spokesperson for the SNP, and the Labour spokesperson to need. Crucially, like the last Labour Government, we and I did not receive so much as an email. To say that need to start moving people with us on the journey to consensus could not have been built is wrong. It could that solution. Pitting people and generations against have been built, and we could have had discussions each other and talking solely about tax rises is a narrative before yesterday. that is now infecting our debate. It needs to stop. Today is my birthday—[HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] Jane Hunt: That is not my understanding. Maybe it is Very kind. I was once in my 20s, and my message to the case, I am not sure. [Interruption.] Forgive me if it young people is that they will get older. A young woman is the case. talked movingly on the BBC yesterday about her struggles The Government have made proposals to raise much- with social care, and she said that everyone is one needed funds to deliver on important commitments accident away from social care. We have to remake the such as upskilling the social care workforce, strengthening social contract for a new generation. the adult social care system, tackling the elective backlog Reform is too late for my mother, who is in her 80s, in the NHS as it recovers from covid-19, funding a and it is too late for me in my mid-ish 50s. It cannot be 3% pay rise for our fantastic nurses and implementing a too late for my children, which is what I need to explain cap on adult social care costs. These aims all have to them, rather than talking of generational warfare. widespread support across the country. 375 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 376

[Jane Hunt] having been given to the nature of the outputs. Clearly, in their desperation to do something about this, the I could mention many cases that have been referred Government have decided that a tax is the best form of to me over the years of elderly people who are afraid to defence. come out of hospital because they know they are not It is also clear that in England at least this debate is well enough to live independently but are afraid to not even in the foothills of where it needs to be about its move into the care system because of the cost. health and social care integration. In Scotland, we In yesterday’s speech on social care costs, the Prime embarked on that journey several years ago. There is Minister said: some irony in the fact that on the day the UK Government “from October 2023 no one starting care will pay more than finally announced their plan to lace up their running £86,000 over their lifetime, and no one with assets of less than shoes on this, the Scottish Government in Edinburgh £20,000 will have to make any contribution from their savings or were announcing in their “Programme for Government” housing wealth—up from £14,000 today.”—[Official Report, plans to go beyond health and social care integration 7 September 2021; Vol. 700, c. 155.] and forge ahead with a national care service. The Office for National Statistics states that between What this measure reveals most of all is the mismatch 2014 and 2016, the most up-to-date figures I can between policy and resources, and the shortcomings of find, the average inheritance was £11,000 per person, the fiscal settlement for devolution. We saw that through which fits in well with what we are trying to develop so the pandemic. We still do not know whether this is to be that people are enabled to leave something for their Barnettised or hypothecated. We do not know how family. much is to come to health and social care, and by what Finally, alongside this additional funding, we need to means. The answers to those questions matter, because look at the overall finances and management of the if the devolved settlement is to be respected, the spending NHS to identify where savings can be made, so that decisions should be taken by the Government who are money is put where it is needed most—frontline services. directly elected and directly accountable to Scottish That is particularly true in respect of waste generally. voters. The suspicion has to be, given the lack of detail For example, GP statistics show that 173,165 people did on that, that this is yet another power grab, with the UK not attend their appointment last year,costing £5.1 billion. borrowing and claiming that borrowing as the so-called Those are some of the things we need to look at. “Union dividend”. However, I will support this measure tonight, for the In the time I have left, let me say that the most reasons I have set out. iniquitous aspect of all is the impact that this move has on the lowest earners in society, the youngest in society 4.40 pm and those who have least in the way of assets of their Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP): It is a standard own. They are being asked to forgo their earnings, for trope from Conservative Members that public services an objective with which few can quibble, in order to in general, or the performance of the Scottish Government protect the assets of those who already have the most. in particular, in some way fall short of what happens at This Government have removed the freedom of movement Westminster. We heard earlier from the hon. Member for young people across Europe, are seeking to for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont), disenfranchise them at the ballot box and now expect who seemed to spend more time complaining about the them to pay for a social settlement that few have the Scottish National party than he did talking about the means to do and few can expect to benefit from. This is NHS and social care. no country for young people at the moment. Despite some of the Damascene conversions that 4.44 pm have clearly taken place among Conservative Members overnight, a number of truths and realities in this Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con): debate should make for deeply uncomfortable feelings It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Gordon among Conservative Members. By levying this tax, they (Richard Thomson), although I did not always agree are not only breaking a manifesto pledge not to increase with what he said. NI and increasing the tax burden disproportionately on I have spoken in this place on multiple occasions the youngest and least well-off, but doing so in order to about the need for a long-term plan that addresses play catch-up with the health and social care landscape social care in this country, so I welcome the Government’s in Scotland. solution. I have direct experience of the problem of I listened carefully to yesterday’s statement and intently social care funding: prior to being elected to this place, I to Conservative Members talking earnestly about the was the finance leader of a large upper-tier authority need for health and social care integration. I even and we spent more than two thirds of our budget on listened carefully to that call when it came from Members social care provision, so I am all too aware of local who had, in ministerial office, been in a position to do government upper-tier authorities’ issues with funding something to drive that integration agenda forwards. social care and the challenge that the Government have What was startling for me was the gradual revelation faced in addressing the issue. throughout the course of the statement that there was As we continue the recovery from the covid-19 pandemic no plan. There was no planned assessment of impact or and learn its lessons, it is clear that we can no longer plan for how the moneys raised would make their way ignore social care. By introducing this reform to social through the NHS and ultimately to social care. Leaving care after decades of inaction, we will change the lives aside the unfairness of the means by which these moneys of thousands of families who are struggling to afford are to be raised and the Prime Minister’s utterly bogus quality care and having to make difficult decisions in rhetoric about “Union dividends”, we are being asked the most vulnerable of circumstances. In finally addressing to applaud the scale of the inputs without any thought this long-standing issue, we will improve the quality and 377 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 378 availability of social care for those who most need it, Where is the carefully costed, detailed plan of what while ensuring that it is most affordable and helping to will be spent on the NHS backlog and invested in our relieve the continuous pressure on the NHS. social care system? One must not be funded at the cost We now cannot ignore the backlog created by the of the other. There is a better way to deliver for a social heroic work of our NHS in rightly prioritising the care system that was already in crisis before the pandemic— treatment of covid-19 patients.I welcome the Government’s and that is not an excuse for the broken manifesto plan to address the backlog immediately through the promises of 2019. This is a system that was already in new health and social care levy, which will allow us to crisis and already in need of investment. increase hospital capacity to 110% and create 9 million Liberal Democrats have repeatedly called on the new appointments. I am sure I am not alone when I say Government to hold cross-party talks to find some that many of my constituents have contacted me to consensus on the best plan to fix social care. The express concerns about hospital waiting times, and I Government have had plenty of time. We know that it know that colleagues from all parties will have constituents can be done. When the Liberal Democrats were in who are pleased to hear about the Government’s government, we built a cross-party agreement through commitment to solving this problem through the levy. the Dilnot commission, as mentioned by the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), and Fundamentally, I am a low-tax Conservative, but as the Care Act 2014, based on the values of the NHS. We the Chairman of the Treasury Committee, my right legislated for it, but after the 2015 election, the Conservatives hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), ripped it up. Instead, they are now pressing ahead with said earlier in the debate, the Government have few a scheme that places a huge burden on low earners levers with which to address this issue. As the Prime and small businesses. Has it completely escaped their Minister said yesterday,a global pandemic was in nobody’s notice that many of those who will be hit hardest by plans. The £407 billion that the Government have spent this tax hike are the frontline NHS and social care to support businesses and families has been vital to workers? keep people safe and the economy afloat during these really difficult times. Then there are the other public sector workers—police and fire officers. As for business, this comes at the worst We should focus on the impact, not just on the possible time. When, as the Federation of Small Businesses additional resources. The necessity of our response to points out, firms are still struggling, trying to recover the global pandemic has brought many changes in the from the impact of the pandemic, what do the Government way things are done in this country. I hope that, along do? They end support, stop furlough and then hit them with the increased resources, there will be increased with another bill, while many of them are struggling to ambition to do things bigger, better, quicker and more get out from under the debt that the pandemic has efficiently, rather than just continually chucking money created. Added to that, so many families are now facing at things. The extensive support schemes offered by my a cut in universal credit. Government were never intended to continue indefinitely. It is abundantly clear to me and to the Liberal As we emerge from the pandemic, it is right that we Democrats that this Government, this Prime Minister look at real-world funding options for the reforms that and this Chancellor are out of touch with ordinary are so clearly necessary. families, small businesses, frontline health and care staff and what they face on a daily basis. As I have said, the 4.47 pm pandemic is no excuse for breaking promises. This is a moment in our history when the people in this country Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): Like, I am most need a Government on whom they can depend sure, many people on both sides of the House, I came and who are as good as their word. here today desperate to support a plan that would see What about the people whom this so-called plan is investment in a system that has been set up to provide supposed to help? Where is the respect, beyond that for care not just for us and all our loved ones but for a certain proportion of the population? We will all start everyone in this country. This is a problem that we all paying for this new arrangement in April 2022, but it want to see fixed for the 1.5 million people who are not will not come into effect until October 2023. What receiving the care they deserve; for the staff who work about the people who are in care now or who will enter long hours, underpaid, with 120,000 jobs left unfilled; care in the intervening 18 months? As for the cap, for the unpaid carers; for those caught in the backlog of £86,000 is still a lot of money. This country deserves NHS waiting lists that threatens every day to deny them better. life-saving treatment in time; and for all of us who might one day need the system that we were brought up to believe was there from cradle to grave. It is therefore 4.51 pm a huge disappointment that this so-called plan does not Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I welcome the do any of that. Government’s commitment to this investment to speed What we have is not a strategy that will fix our NHS through the backlog that we have had since the pandemic and social care—the long-awaited oven-ready plan that and to invest in social care. For too long, social care has the Prime Minister promised us on the steps of Downing been left in the “too difficult to solve” box. Well, we Street. Perhaps it would now be more appropriate to come here to do the hard things as well as the easier, talk about the naughty step and to consider what this and that is what this Government are doing. so-called plan will mean for the young people, the In spite of the warm words that have been spoken by lowest-paid and the small businesses that will be hit Opposition Members, it is absolutely clear to anyone hardest, because this is a tax hike for the low-paid and listening today or yesterday that, whatever is proposed, young people, which the Government promised there they will oppose it to the extent of even voting against would not be. people getting urgent NHS treatment or care. 379 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 380

[Mrs Natalie Elphicke] amnesia. There were extensive waiting lists at record high levels even before the pandemic. Those levels are The proposal of additional money comes on top of even higher now. The Tories cut 17,000 beds from the unprecedented investment in the NHS, approaching NHS before the pandemic struck. The way that the £40 billion by 2023-24, but today’s welcome further Government are betraying and misleading the nation is boost for the backlog and social care does need paying astonishing. for. No one on the Conservative Benches likes tax rises, Two constituents recently wrote to me about their and I certainly do not. It is essential to look at the dismay at the way in which the Government are dismantling burden of taxes overall and to commit to reducing that the health service, and I have to agree. The Government over time. None the less, I recognise and accept that, if have exploited the chaos of the pandemic to advance we fail to take the tough decisions now, the longer-term their agenda of privatisation with minimal public economic consequences will be even greater in the future. knowledge. There has been more outsourcing of NHS Along with these changes, I hope that my right hon. services to private companies. Public money is spent on Friends on the Front Bench will consider how we can contracts, rather than being spent directly on the NHS. move away from the burden on council tax with a social Should the Health and Care Bill pass as written, in care precept and make sure that we continue to modernise April we will enter a new phase, where the NHS will be and make every pound and penny count on the frontline. broken down into dozens of smaller units that will have I would like to take a moment to reflect on what that private companies on their boards, including American NHS investment through successive Conservative health insurance companies seeking only profit. The Governments has meant for the people of Dover and deputy chair of the British Medical Association wrote Deal. It has meant that we have: a brand new state of last year: the art hospital, the Buckland Hospital; a groundbreaking “rather than finding a moment of clarity in this crisis to reinvest Harmonia dementia village, the first of its type in the in a publicly provided health service and build for a better future, entire country, which has been delayed by the pandemic the Government has doubled down on its failures, choosing to but is now expected to be open in the spring next year; a throw huge amounts of money at scores of private firms…rather pilot centre for a new approach to wounds at the Queen than rebuilding the health and care system and empowering those with the greatest expertise.” Victoria Memorial Hospital at Deal; a new training centre for GPs and nurses in east Kent, serving our What we are left with is a fragmented healthcare system entire area; and even a new dentist provision. The that is a skeleton of what it once was, with workers market is also responding to this investment and underpaid and exhausted, and social care neglected. commitment to healthcare and to the people of our Now the Prime Minister wants all taxpayers, including country, with older people’s housing being built by the most financially insecure, to pay for his mistakes—this McCarthy Stone in the centre of Dover at this very Government’s mistakes. It is shameful. It is a betrayal of time. However, the pandemic backlog is causing real the NHS and a betrayal of the British people, and it is distress, as is the failure to grasp the nettle of social something that the Opposition will certainly not accept. care. I see that in my inbox, as we all do. I therefore strongly welcome this funding, this new approach and 4.58 pm this commitment to tackle the issue. Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): I welcome the extra The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) funding that is going into tackling the backlog of cases asked about election leaflets. Well, in mine I committed in the NHS. Dartford has been particularly badly hit, to better healthcare, and I know that it is this Government with Darent Valley Hospital this week having perhaps who are funding and delivering that for the people of its busiest week in many years as it tries to deal with the Dover and Deal. backlog. I ask the Treasury team, working with their colleagues in the Department of Health, to ensure that 4.55 pm the extra money that will be invested in the national health service gets through the treacle of bureaucracy Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): We have heard— that can quite often affect extra funding for the national mainly from Opposition Members—about the grave health service, so that it can reach the frontline without issues with and concerns about this NHS tax, which will being siphoned off in various directions on its way be detrimental and cause more hardship, especially to through. I welcome the fact that the Government have young people and poorer people in our society. We have had the courage to deal with this issue. We can argue heard about the cuts to local authorities and universal about whether the plans are the correct plans, and credit, and now the increase in national insurance, whether we are funding them in the right way or the which will hit poorer people in our society. How can wrong way, but it would not be a very wise argument to that be right? say that we should carry on kicking this can down the Let me turn my focus to the Government’s progressing road. It is very welcome that we are confronting this efforts to privatise the NHS. NHS privatisation has problem head on and dealing with the issue. been a creeping threat for the past decade.The Government It is slightly surprising that we have not seen much make a song and dance about valuing the NHS every support from Labour. I could help my hon. Friend the election time. This includes their broken promises to Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) in understanding build 40 new hospitals and to spend £350 million on the what the Labour party’s plan would have been had they NHS every week if we left the European Union. The been in power for the past 11 years. The Labour party Prime Minister has consistently pulled the wool over had a plan for how to deal with social care in its 2015 the trusting public’s eyes, abusing their loyalty to the manifesto, which says that extra public funds were country’s most beloved asset. He is fixated on the needed, which I think we all accept, that a cap on pandemic, yet somehow the Government seem to have contributions to social care should be imposed, and, 381 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 382 crucially, that it could be funded by a social care levy. years’ time. It is paid more by people who earn more. It That was the position the Labour party took in 2015. It does not hit wealth, but there other taxes that could was so happy with that policy that it had it again for its have been used to do that. The Scottish Government manifesto in the 2017 general election. So that is exactly already took action in 2018 by adding a penny to all our how the Labour party would have approached this tax bands so that we had more money for health and situation: with a social care levy.That is what is proposed social care. We do not just provide free prescriptions; we by the Government, and it is therefore slightly surprising are the only UK nation that provides free personal care, that we have not seen more support. As my hon. Friend and in 2019, that was extended to those in need below said, we saw Gordon Brown come to the Dispatch Box the age of 65. That is something to which other nations in a Budget and increase national insurance by 1%. He within the UK should be aspiring. It allows people to did not mention it in his Budget speech—we all found stay at home and to have greater independence, and that out about it in the Red Book afterwards—but that was is how we should be looking on it. The Feeley review, his approach then. which the Scottish Government commissioned, asks us We have consistently seen the Labour party supporting to turn it around, to stop seeing social care as a burden exactly what the Government are proposing to do today, and instead to see it as a way of allowing the people but instead of Labour Members supporting it, we have affected, whether due to disability or age, to still be part received the class attacks referenced by my right hon. of our society. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike We object to the undermining of devolution, because Penning). That shows that they have learned nothing it is the Scottish Parliament that has responsibility for from the last few general elections. They have learned the strategy of health and social care. Our health and nothing from their experiences of dealing with working-class social care landscape is quite different. Not only do we people. They do not understand that working-class have free personal care; we also still have a unified, people actually have aspirations—aspirations to own public NHS. We have been integrating with social care their own house and to save some money where they since 2013, so to say that suddenly we will hand that can, and not to have that house, and everything else, control over to the Prime Minister—I am sorry, but that pretty much, that they own taken away from them if will not wash. The national care service proposal from they happen to need social care at the end of their lives. the Feeley review recognises that we already pay the It is trying to ensure that those aspirations are met that living wage and we pay for overnight sleepovers. What has ensured that the Conservative party has made far we actually need for social care in all four nations is to more progress with working-class people than the Labour develop social care as a career, so that people stay there party, which has simply lost contact and lost connection and commit to it. It is not just a job that someone does with the people that it used to serve. I am therefore until they can get on the checkout at Tesco. It is a simple surprised that Labour Members are not supporting fact that above all other careers, care is delivered by this, and they should perhaps reflect on that decision. I people, for people. That is where any plan should start. again pay tribute to the Government for having the If there is focus on the workforce, we may end up with a courage to deal with one of the most difficult issues that care service that we can be proud of and that will faces British politics today. deliver for all constituents.

5.6 pm 5.2 pm Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Political parties in Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): I am this country set out with manifestos at general elections pleased to follow the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth with a general intent to try to implement them. There is Johnson), because I do welcome the fact that this debate usually a number of rules. If a party thinks it will win, it is happening and that there is an attempt to find a has the shortest manifesto possible, and if a party is in solution to something that absolutely has been kicked opposition, it will usually have an endless manifesto down the road. However, I am very disappointed that with lots of promises to try to attract people. The truth despite the rhetoric there was no attempt at cross-party of the matter is that what comes along is events, and a contact or to achieve consensus and agree a long-term pragmatic, sensible Government have to respond to solution. events. I also feel that this proposal is regressive. It will hit We have had one big event, the pandemic. Nobody lower-paid people, including the key workers we were said, “You didn’t have the furlough in the manifesto”, clapping for just 18 months ago. It will hit the younger because how could we have foreseen that? The jobs of generation, who have been hit from multiple directions 7 million, 8 million, 9 million people were protected to and will not have the benefits that we have been lucky get through the pandemic. Nobody said, “You cannot enough to have in our lifetimes. It will stifle recovery give grants”, or, “You cannot spend £400 billion.” We because it is simply a tax on jobs. Like previous social live in a funny country where the Prime Minister can security cuts driven by Tory austerity, it will take money spend £400 billion getting us through a pandemic, but out of local economies and remove spending power. God forbid he try to put wallpaper up in his flat in That means increasing poverty—the single biggest driver Downing Street, which of course the Cabinet Office of ill-health. would not pay for. In Scotland, that will impact on our aim to have a The reality is that the Government have been pragmatic wellbeing recovery from covid. That is why we object to and sensible, and the consequence of the pandemic is this measure and why we object to the Prime Minister that we have a higher debt level, and that changes the saying that he will direct how the spending is used. parameters of what the party that is governing can do. Income tax would have been a fairer method. It is paid We want to implement our manifesto promises dealing by wealthy pensioners, as I will probably be in a few with care. We need to get the backlog of the NHS down. 383 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 384

[Sir Robert Syms] daughters—and increasingly their sons—who are killing themselves with eating disorders and cannot get the Many people in my constituency have been quiet, waiting help that is needed. I do not want to score points, but I for their operation and their opportunity to get back to do want to get it right. normal, and we need to give them support. That is what There are rightful questions about who will bear the we are trying to do. brunt of what is undoubtedly a necessary evil. My real The simple truth is that we are in a different world fear is that for small businesses who in recent years have from the one we had in 2019. This Government are taken on the burden of paying statutory sick pay to treating the world as it is, and that means tough decisions staff, increased wages under the minimum wage and are and unpopular decisions. I would not be surprised if we paying more to ship their products to Northern Ireland fell behind in the opinion polls, but the reality is that we due to the disgraceful Northern Ireland protocol, what are doing what the British people expect us to do, which seems like a small increase may put them off hiring is to govern and deal with the problems we face. I that new staff member. That is a real concern, and when support this Government, not because I agree with that is weighed along with fact that big businesses with everything that they do, but because I am proud of the their expensive accountants can find a loophole to fact that they take tough decisions. That is what prevent them from paying what they can well afford, it Governments are meant to do. They are meant to take seems that the middle class will again be the ones feeling challenges head on. the squeeze. I therefore share the concerns of my right We are dealing with the NHS backlog. Who can tell hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy how quickly we will get it shifted? Of course we need Wilson), who highlighted the unfair nature of this more staff, but we are seeing in figures out recently that blanket tax. the backlog is already starting to fall. Let us hope it is cleared quickly. We are starting to deal with some of the Whatever method is used to raise money—I need this care issues. Is this proposal a silver bullet for dealing to be heard clearly—this money cannot be diverted by with them all? No, it is not. Is it enough money? I way of the Barnett consequential to any other Department, wonder, because there is a list of Government priorities as moneys have been in the past. We need to reform our that may mean some funds may be diverted before they health and social care or we will lose the NHS, but, in get to care. The Government are trying their best to Northern Ireland, the funding make-up means that deal with people’s concerns. funding cannot be ring-fenced. As my right hon. Friend said: We all have constituents whose parents have worked hard all their life to buy a home; we see the unlucky “Northern Ireland will benefit by about £420 million per year ones when mum or dad has Alzheimer’s and goes into a by this increase in National Insurance but there is no indication home and they see the proceeds of a life’s work disappear. that the Executive”— If that person is in a home next to someone fully funded the Northern Ireland Executive— by a local authority, it is quite right and proper that we “will be required to spend it on the purpose for which it was should pay at least some regard to their hard work and raised since the Government cannot ringfence money”. recognise the things they did not have—perhaps holidays or horseracing or gambling—because they wanted to Before the debate, I spoke to the Minister for Care to buy a home. seek assurances, and she will seek those assurances The Government are roughly on the right track. I from the Treasury. Since the relevant Minister is not hope that we will get back to a more tax-cutting agenda here at the moment, I put these questions to the acting as the years roll by. I am very hopeful for the deficit this Ministers on the Front Bench. Can that money for year because we are growing quite rapidly, we seem to Northern Ireland be ring-fenced? Will all future moneys be getting control of spending and we have had to take that come to Northern Ireland for this purpose also be some tough decisions with tax. I am confident that ring-fenced? That is what we need to know. We cannot when we come to face the British people, I will hold my have a system whereby—as has happened on multiple head up high because we are tackling the issues that my occasions—this salvation funding for the NHS is used constituents care about. for putting, for instance, an Irish language or Ulster Scots sign up on a street. How do we ensure that the money goes on reform and is not used by others to 5.10 pm promote their political goals and aspirations? Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): We are all aware that the NHS is the pride of the UK, and we are We undoubtedly need to take the bull by the horns similarly aware that there is a grim possibility that it and swallow the pill for the increase. However, we will may become our biggest loss. I am therefore very much never be forgiven if in five years’ time we are still in the focused on health issues. That loss would be because of same position. What guarantees do we have that the historical underfunding as well as the unseen pressures sacrifice of every single employed person, every single that covid has placed on every facet of the NHS, from pensioner and every single business owner will bring dentists, physios and surgeons to waiting lists, assessments about the necessary change and not be lost in the ether and operations. of politics at Stormont? Many are willing to make the sacrifice for care—not anything else—and we need binding I will not take the path of some others and seek to legislation in place for us to believe that any guarantee score political points because that is not what I am given will not be waylaid by political machinations. about. I am will think of the constituent who, at the age of 53, came to my office almost immobilised having The future of the NHS is worth the change to legislation. waited four years for a hip replacement. I will think of Let us get it done. I want to see something happen from the parents desperate to get respite for their disabled which we can all benefit across the whole United Kingdom, children. I will think of the mums watching their and I need that to happen for us in Northern Ireland. 385 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 386

5.14 pm the output we so badly need, and which indeed is vital if we are to turn this around in two years’ time and use Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): this money for social care. May I congratulate the Government on dealing with unfinished business? Since 1948, we have pooled our There is some concern about the extent to which the risk for the management of the consequences of poor money that has been announced for this will distort the health except for things such as dementia and the general social care market, and I would be interested in Ministers’ frailty that for some of us attends old age. This could be views on that. Will the industry load hotel costs, and a historic moment in which we sort that out, and I will will it front-load charges up to the £86,000 cap? How most certainly be enthusiastically supporting the will that incentivise the domiciliary care market, which Government tonight. It is grossly unfair that certain could turn out to be extremely positive? How will it conditions should be excluded from our provision, and affect the current 40% cross-subsidy from fee payers to I am so hopeful that this will finally, after 70 years, local government-funded customers? How can it grow a complete the job begun by our predecessors. vibrant insurance product market that will cover the delta—the £20,000 to £100,000 difference—and what I am disappointed that Labour Members should have will be done with actuaries and underwriters to that taken the line they have, because I recall their doing end? something really rather similar in 2003 with national insurance contributions, presumably because Gordon Can I finish by saying that all of this depends on Brown and Tony Blair at that time decided this broad-based improving productivity in the national health service? It tax was the fairest and most equitable way of dealing is a challenge that has evaded many over seven decades, with this and, crucially, of raising significant amounts but one that must be grasped if we are to complete this of money. We can debate whether the money was then and ensure that we do indeed set the foundations—and well spent, and the statistics and figures suggest that I am confident we will—for proper social care. We need, that was not the case at least for the rest of that decade, for example, to drive down sickness absence, which is and productivity in the NHS only started picking up in very high in the national health service. We need more the following decade. Nevertheless, in raising sufficient service work to be done by professions allied to medicine. funds for spending on something we all agree is vital, We need more artificial intelligence, data analysis and Gordon Brown and Tony Blair made the right call in robotics.Weneed to crack down on variations in healthcare 2003, and I find it dispiriting, saddening and disheartening and to have zero tolerance for practitioners who diverge that Opposition Front Benchers should on this occasion from it. We need to cut treatments and procedures of decide, for their own purposes, not to support it. marginal benefit. We need early switching to generics. We must stop the revolving door between social care Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab): I notice and the acute sector—something I am afraid the industry from the right hon. Member’s entry in the Register of exploits to its advantage. Over time we must revisit the Members’ Financial Interests that he makes income via disastrous doctors’ contracts that I am afraid have rentals, as many people in this House do. Does he think meant, over the past several years, that people like me at it is fair that, in what has been presented to us today, the peak of our powers are retiring early or going part rental income for landlords is completely not within the time, grossly reducing productivity in our national health remit of any take for this levy, so there will be care service. workers in South West Wiltshire who are paying this on the income they make being care workers while it will 5.20 pm not be paid by landlords with rental income? Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): Over the course of the pandemic the UK has amassed a record Dr Murrison: I am grateful for that intervention, number of billionaires—171. Their wealth has rocketed because additional rate taxpayers, who I think make up by more than £106 billion and in total now stands just about 2% of taxpayers in this country, will be paying a shy of £600 billion, up nearly 25% since May 2020. It is fifth of the whole receipts for this measure and 14% of safe to say that the super-rich class has not had financial taxpayers will be providing half of it. That is progressive, worries over the past 18 months. Unlike millions of which is presumably why Gordon Brown and Tony people across the country, they do not have to worry Blair, all those years ago, decided to levy this on national about putting food on the table, paying the rent, or the insurance. I am extremely grateful to the hon. Member cost of caring for elderly relatives. One might think that for raising and underscoring that point. instead of hitting the living standards of our heroic key However, I do have some concerns, as Ministers workers, that super-rich class would be asked to pay would expect me to have. One of those concerns was more when the NHS and social care system is in desperate expressed by our right hon. Friend the Member for need of funding, but that is not how it is under a Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry), which is that this Conservative Government. is a one-way tax, because there is no way that in the This national insurance hike will hit low-paid and future we are ever going to attack a tax hypothecated to young workers the hardest, while doing absolutely nothing health and social care. In some eyes it represents a to tax the wealth of the super-rich. It will cost a band 5 flawed tax, since as Conservatives we of course always nurse in Coventry more than £250, and the marginal tax want to remove as little money as possible from the rate of a recent graduate, once student loan repayments pockets of all of our constituents. are included, will now be close to 50%. That is another There is also a traditional disconnect in healthcare attack on the living standards of the working class and between money in and services out. We found that in the young, from a party that for 11 years has let the 2003, and the challenge for the Government today, rents of my generation soar, as student debt rockets and which I am fully confident they are up for, is to turn the wages stagnate. That does not come in isolation. Next money they have announced yesterday and today into month the Conservative party plans to cut universal 387 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 388

[Zarah Sultana] The Government will not like this, but we also need to look at the immigration rules. I know that there are credit by £20 a week—the biggest overnight social security already exemptions for highly skilled doctors and nurses, cut in the history of the welfare state. That move will but we need more than that across the whole health push 500,000 working-class people into poverty. sector, and that help will come only through immigration. Yesterday, the Conservative party announced that it What about targets? Constituents deserve to have specific would break the triple lock on pensions, robbing retirees targets set. We need to know how those are going to be of nearly £350 a year at a time when pensioner poverty triaged according to need, as I assume they will be, and is already at a 15-year high. This Government are how they will be reported on. hammering working-class people, raising taxes on workers Then we have social care—what are we going to do while cutting their safety net, and doing nothing to rein there? Can we really afford to wait for a White Paper? in the vast wealth of the super-rich. They pretend they No, I do not think we can, but what could we do? We are one nation, but today they show that they only could legislate now. We could mandate proper pay—pay represent one class—that of billionaire donors, super-rich that is fair for the quality of work and the professionalism property developers, big landlords and fossil fuel barons. provided. Wecould develop a proper,professional system. Yes, the NHS and the social care system desperately We could fund local government properly. We could need more funding. Our care system needs to be police the quality of the commissioning, as we might transformed into a national care service, modelled on under the new Health and Care Bill, which is going our amazing NHS and free at the point of use for all, through Parliament. Again, we could change the but that must be funded by a wealth tax on the super-rich, immigration rules, and we could also look at properly not by an income tax on the poor. supporting carers who are looking after relatives at home, removing extra burden on the NHS. 5.23 pm All this is possible, but without a plan and without Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): There is, accountability, how can we look the taxpayer in the eye without doubt, agreement across the House that funding and say, “If you pay, we will deliver”? is necessary for health and social care. The challenge is in how we fund that, how we spend it, and how we ensure that the Government are held accountable for 5.27 pm their promises. I will not repeat the powerful words of Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab): my right hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and There were many elements of the speech by the hon. Darwen (Jake Berry) and my hon. Friend the Member Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) that I for Wycombe (Mr Baker). They spoke truth to power, wholeheartedly agreed with, on the definition of good and I hope the Government were listening. They raised social care and in particular the reporting mechanism a second issue—indeed, this has been raised by others: for the money that is raised as a result of our decision is there a proper plan? We have a document; it is called tonight. She made some very important points. “the plan”. For me, a plan is something that sets out clearly not just ambition—that is there aplenty—but I want briefly to say what an unusual first week back specifically what will be done, when it will be done by, it has been. Yesterday, we debated the Elections Bill and who will be doing it, and how the Government in this basically voted on compulsory ID cards. I feel that is case, and the NHS, will be held accountable. What will very much against the grain of who we are. It has be the reporting mechanism? I fear I see none of that. If always been nice to know that we can pop out to the I am asking taxpayers to pay a very substantial sum, I shops or down to the polling station without photo ID, think that is the least we owe them. and I think that some of the things we debated yesterday about photo ID go against that very liberal notion of Under this proposal, 80% of the pot will go to the who we are. NHS backlog and 20% to social care, which will be split between sorting out the woeful provision that we have Likewise, we had the debate about compulsory now and the cap. I suggest that our priorities here are vaccinations. Again, I feel that there is something very wrong. Yes, there is a backlog, but social care should illiberal in that, particularly in forcing certain people, in not be second class. It should not be dealt with second, certain workplace conditions, to do it. I feel that that is after the backlog is fixed; it needs fixing now. To be another essential debate about who we are. I am the honest, to talk about fixing the mechanism by which we daughter of complete Anglophiles; I grew up with share the cost between state and individual as the “This is England”on the coffee table at home. Sometimes priority seems wrong. If we do not have a social care I feel that we have forgotten who we are. system that actually delivers, there is nothing to pay for, In 2009, the satisfaction rate for the NHS was 80%, the and there is nothing to debate about how we fund it. I overall best figure ever since the measure was introduced believe that the Government must change that priority. in 1983. When this Government came in in 2010, that What, then, could the Government do? With regard started to drop, and it has now dropped by more than to the backlog, they could look not just at longer-term 16%. We know that the waiting list is up to 13 million, plans—we do not have time for that when it comes to but as the hon. Member for Newton Abbot said, we recruitment—but at how we are going to get retired have no recording mechanism and no mechanism for doctors and overseas-qualified doctors back. The knowing exactly what the money will go on. That point Government could do that; they could change the was very well made. bureaucracy that stopped that happening during We also know that the Federation of Small Businesses the pandemic. They could look at how we can change has real concerns that the measure might stifle recruitment the way we work flexibly across the different specialisms. right now. The TUC is very worried about young people That can be done, it has to be done, and it should be and their employment prospects, questioning whether the focus. this is the right moment, when we do not know whether 389 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 390 the recovery is sustainable. I am bitterly disappointed as of people being better cared for, getting through the a vice-chair of the Local Government Association and backlog and helping our constituents to be able to see a former council leader—I know there is one on the GPs when they wish to. Government Benches—that nothing has been spelled out on how we are going to help struggling councils. All 5.33 pm of this could very well go straight into a waiting list. There are no targets and there is no promise, so I worry Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): I know that local government will be ripped off and that the there have been partisan words flying across the Chamber £3.9 billion gap will never be filled. today, but one thing that unites everyone across the House is a commitment to try to tackle the issue of The measure is coming forward at a time when we social care so that our children are still not having to know the people who will feel its impact the most, as the deal with it in generations to come. I would like to start right hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake by thanking all our NHS workers who have been a part Berry) said, happen to be in that care system. The irony of tackling the really difficult challenge over the past is that they will have to pay even more to work in a 18 months. Their dedication to fighting covid, keeping failing system, where many are not paid the living wage. us safe and keeping the NHS working at this difficult Many councils cannot afford to pay the extra living time must be commended by us all. I also want to thank wage,which makes such a huge difference to that workforce. our care workers. I have to mention my cousin Natalie I am sure those on the Treasury Front Bench will make and my great aunt Elaine, who have been fantastic, those deliberations when they have a chance. I am sure working throughout the pandemic. I have said it now. they have been working on this all summer, but it does They will be watching at home. feel a bit rushed— I am really proud that, after years of it being kicked down the road, it is the Conservative party that is finally Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank my grasping this issue and saying that we are going to hon. Friend for giving way and I agree with much of tackle social care. Tosome extent it has been disappointing what she has said to date. She may or may not know to hear Labour criticise with no viable alternative. I that in Northern Ireland today a leading gas supplier want to try to be more constructive. One of my concerns announced a 35% price increase. That will put significant is about the speed at which these proposals have been financial pressure, particularly on the— presented to us. We know that urgency is needed to tackle this issue. In a sense, it is fantastic that the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): Government want to act swiftly, but having seen these Order. I am not sure whether the hon. Lady has been in proposals only yesterday, we have had limited time to for much of the debate,but it is important that interventions scrutinise them effectively and to consult our constituents are very short because there are a lot of people who and find out what their concerns are about these proposals, have put down to speak who may not get in. and to feed that into Government. I really hope that Government will engage with us as this passes through Carla Lockhart: That will put significant pressure on to the next legislative stages. the low paid and the squeezed middle. Does she agree The speech that really struck me today was from my that the increase in national insurance contributions on right hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen top of that will have an impact on them, even making— (Jake Berry). I kind of wish I could copy and paste his speech and turn it into my own, because it really did address many of the points that I wanted to make. The Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have to stop the first one I want to touch on is the relativity of house hon. Lady. prices and how the maximum floor for care will have an impact. My hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Catherine West: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Harpenden (Bim Afolami) made a decent point about The hon. Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) is needing a simple system, but unfortunately, when looking making a really important point about the unknowables. at that limit and relative house prices in areas such as We do not know by how much our gas and electricity my Bishop Auckland constituency, where the average bills will go up in the next year. We do not know house price is about £120,000, seeing constituents potentially whether firms will take fright and stop hiring people. lose a huge percentage of their only asset—an asset that One thing we do know is that council tax will go up, they have worked their entire lives for to pass on to their because there was nothing in the announcement for children—is something that I am finding incredibly councils. We know a few things are not going to get hard to justify, when people in other areas of the better. We know a few things could get better and might country who have worked equally hard would lose a not get better. It does seem to be a bit of a risky move. much smaller percentage of that asset. In conclusion, we have had a very strange return to It is good, however, to see the floor lifted from Parliament. Sometimes I get very surprised by the £23,000 to £100,000. That is to be commended, but still, Government. I think sometimes Ministers do, too. I there is an issue about the ultra-wealthy who will also hope there is urgent work between the Ministry of have the cost of their care capped, and who can afford Housing, Communities and Local Government, the to pay more than the £86,000. I hope that that will be Department of Health and Social Care, and the Treasury addressed. I also have concerns about national insurance to really make this work. It is likely to go through. I do being used as the tool for this, like many other colleagues not think there are quite enough rebels like the right who have spoken today. hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen—he is shaking My main concern is the fact that we have not had a his head. Please try to make it work. In taking such a great deal of time to consider these proposals and to risky decision right now, we can at least get the dividend consider alternatives, as my right hon. Friend the Member 391 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 392

[Dehenna Davison] be right that 95% of this tax bombshell comes from those in employment. Let us be absolutely clear: this is, for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) said. The article unfortunately, a tax on jobs and on our economic by Peter Lilley proposing a state-backed optional insurance recovery from the pandemic. system not only is a free market approach to tackling It is incredible how ruthless the ideology of the this, backed up by the state, which is well needed, but Conservatives can be, yet when the facts are staring goes to the Conservative principle of personal responsibility them in the face and it makes financial sense, the Tories that I think every Government Member supports. simply cannot countenance taxing their own. It is very A quote by Mike DeWine, the former Governor of simple and I will spell it out very clearly: those with the Ohio and a US Senator, struck me: broadest shoulders should bear the greatest responsibility. “Governing is about making tough decisions, but it’s also Even the ultra free marketeers on the Government about figuring out a better way to do things.” Benches have voiced concerns about the policy. I am so proud that the Government are making this Weneed to consider more progressive taxation measures, tough decision. I hope that by working together, we can such as a wealth tax to ensure that the wealthiest pay find that better way of delivering on our social care their fair share. Let us be really clear about what has pledge, but unfortunately,for the reasons I have highlighted happened in the past 18 months: Britain has created a today, I will be abstaining on this today. However, I will record number of millionaires and billionaires during work alongside colleagues to try to make it the best it the coronavirus pandemic. Their wealth has surged—the can be for all our constituents, for the country and to combined wealth of billionaires in this country grew ensure that our economy can bounce back in the best more than 20%. Instead of raiding the pockets of the possible way. lowest paid and of small and medium-sized enterprises, who may struggle to afford it, why are the Government 5.37 pm not closing the tax loopholes and targeting the tax Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab): I find it incredibly havens? ironic that the Government scrapped the chance today We also need an assessment of the impact on jobs, to debate the removal of the universal credit uplift—perhaps but we have not heard about it from the Government because they did not want to be exposed for taking today and so far they have resolutely refused to do one. money away from the some of the poorest in society—to We need jobs to get out of this crisis into growth and get instead offer up a debate about disproportionately hitting more tax coming in. We also need a full, comprehensive some of the lowest-paid people in our country. social care plan that is properly and fairly funded and The double whammy of a national insurance hike integrated with the NHS; a system that looks after and a universal credit cut shows the complete disdain everyone in our country from cradle to grave; and, most that the Government have for the working population. importantly, a proposal that does not pit one generation Far from being the supposed party of aspiration, they against another that is less wealthy. The plan is unjust seem to be nothing more than they have always been— and badly timed, and it will not fix the social care crisis. the party of the 1%—and they are not even trying to hide it with this regressive tax grab. Instead of sitting in 5.41 pm front of the House today to front up this disastrous decision, the Chancellor seems to have gone AWOL. Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con): It is a pleasure to Maybe he spent the day in Sherwood forest as a reverse follow the hon. Member for Ilford South (Sam Tarry), if Robin Hood, robbing the poor to give money to the only because he asked what we would say to the people rich. in his constituency who have been struggling. It seems a As we have repeatedly heard from so many people in strange time to ask that question when the Government the House today, a staggering 2.5 million families across have just spent £400 billion helping individuals and the country will be hit by this huge national insurance businesses through a tremendous crisis, keeping the tax rise as well as the £20-a-week cut to universal credit. show on the road and making sure that our economy In constituencies such as mine, which has people who can recover, that jobs grow and that we have a way of are among the lowest paid in the country, this devastating life we can continue with. I feel that the timing of his news will mean that in many cases, people will be points was somewhat ill-judged. pushed further below the poverty line. What do the It has been interesting to be in the Chamber today, Government have to say to those people or to the because we seem to have covered all the reasons that we struggling small and medium-sized enterprises and should not do something. It seems that all the ways in businesses that have battled through the pandemic? which we are doing something are imperfect. I feel we What am I supposed to say to the people in my have captured the political paralysis that has surrounded constituency—the public sector workers—who have been social care over the past couple of decades. It is incredibly hit by wave after wave of pay freezes, and now the difficult to do anything in this area, because it requires Government want to hit them again with a national tough choices and a punt into the dark that may or may insurance increase? What about those families who are not work—we can never be sure. already stretched to breaking point, who will now be We often speak in this Chamber as if we are certain, forced to sell their homes and plunder their life savings as if we are positive and as if we know where things will to pay for the £86,000 of social care? The silence from go, but sometimes we have to say, “We think this is the the Government on that point in particular today has best way forward and we hope it works.”To acknowledge been deafening. that the Prime Minister and the Government are doing This week, the TUC made it crystal clear that it is something today on the NHS backlog and on social completely unacceptable to hit the young and low-paid care is to admire their bravery. To govern is to choose, workers while leaving the wealthy untouched. It cannot and that is what the Prime Minister is doing. 393 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 394

We have heard some tremendous speeches about the There are never any good options for raising taxes, alternatives to taxation or to systems, but we have been but I happen to think that raising taxes on having a job having this debate for so long. When I look my suffering should possibly be at the bottom of the list when we constituents in the eye or when they come to our look at new areas of income. We have spent billions on surgeries and say that the system does not work, we furlough, keeping people in jobs. That has been borrowed cannot sit there and say, “Okay, but I’m going to engage from future generations, and will be paid back. We have in an academic exercise for another decade until we find kept people in jobs. We have kept the economy going. perfection.” Sometimes we have to acknowledge that We have kept the show on the road. We have avoided the the best way forward is to take a chance. economic death spiral of mass unemployment while we Today is a massive step in the right direction. We are have all these additional rising pressures on spending on investing £12 billion per year over the next three years public services, including, of course, social care—the to try to ensure that any damage done by the global very problem that we are here to fix. There are, I think, pandemic to our NHS is no longer a problem and that other less bad options. My right hon. Friend the Member we can reach 110% capacity. We are also grasping the for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) suggested a nettle of social care reform. However,there is an intriguing cocktail of taxes and levies. Normally, I instinctively paragraph in the health and social care plan: paragraph 9, avoid complexity in taxation— which states that “the Government will ensure this money is well spent and goes to Jake Berry: But not cocktails. frontline care in England, increasing efficiencies and using reforms to drive up productivity.” Ben Everitt: No—not cocktails! I think that there is an acknowledgment, particularly We have to recognise that the simple option is not among Conservative Members, that NHS funding cannot always the right one, and I look forward to the debates go on becoming a black hole. There is a need to ensure that will follow as this policy evolves. that outcomes and productivity are improved. Look at As for the quantum and the period over which the the lessons of the pandemic, particularly from the revenue is spent, I must ask whether it is enough to fix Nightingale hospitals, which went up in 10 days through the care sector. The hon. Member for Sheffield South the combination of logistical support from the Ministry East (Mr Betts), the Chairman of the Housing, of Defence and the NHS—it was unprecedented. Communities and Local Government Committee, referred We saw in the vaccine roll-out that when we bring to the previous report of the Health and Social Care additional expertise into the NHS, we can achieve amazing Committee, which required an additional £3.6 billion things. for the sector. Are we going to get that, and is it going to My “nudge” today is that I do not think we can go through at the right time? We need to solve the continue to assume that more and more money will broken economics of running a care home, which mean solve the problems that we have. Equally, however, I will that providers must fund the services off the back of not look my constituents in the eye and say, “I did not private clients to subsidise the clients who are referred try.” However tough some of the decisions are that we by local authorities. I think we need a big conversation have to take, I will back our Prime Minister and I will about that as well. back our Government, because our constituents need Let us turn to how the money is spent. The additional to see our country get better, and that is what we are funding must be supported by meaningful reform. We trying to achieve. must address the issue of funding allocation, and the allocation of responsibility within the sector. Currently, the system is set up to incentivise referrals. The system 5.45 pm is split between local authorities, care providers and the NHS. Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Dehenna Davison: Does my hon. Friend agree that we Bolsover (Mark Fletcher), who made a typically thoughtful need a wide spread of provision to ensure that we have and energetic contribution. There was much to agree the best possible outcomes for social care patients? with there. My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland Ben Everitt: Absolutely. We need more providers in (Dehenna Davison) quoted the words, “To lead is to the market, but the market needs to be functioning for choose”, and here we have no easy choices. Indeed, in that to take place. our job we often have tough days in the office, and nights when we lose sleep thinking about a vote, a My hon. Friend made a very good point earlier about decision, the options and the choices that we have in another aspect of how the money is spent. The £86,000 front of us. However, in this speech I am going to look cap needs to be met and tweaked with a regional house on the bright side. I am going to try to be optimistic, price element to recognise the fact that houses are worth and pull out the good things from the situation and the more in some areas than in others. hard choices that we face. One good thing is that owing In conclusion, I will vote for this. Our job in this to the timing of this, I only lost one night’s sleep, but I place is to make good laws, and we need to do that at am going to be very positive about the policy itself as every stage. This is a tricky problem. The Government well. I am going to choose three things that I want to are right to grasp the nettle and reform social care. The improve, and I am glad that the Chief Secretary to the fundamental problem that we face is that the assumptions Treasury is here to listen. Those three things are how that we are basing our entire welfare system on were the revenue is raised, the quantum and the period over made in the 1940s when people went into work in their which it is spent, and how it is spent. teens, retired when they were 60 and lived until they 395 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 396

[Ben Everitt] I think the shadow Chancellor suggested that this could be funded by charges on the sale of land, property were about 65. Now, they are living much longer lives and shares, but the truth is that combined revenues and retiring earlier. That is the funding issue that we from all stamp duties on land, property and shares face. comes to about £15 billion, which is nothing like enough to pay for what is needed. So national insurance is the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I fairest option. Gordon Brown was right, on this one must gently point out that colleagues may think that occasion, that it is the most regressive option— they are helping each other out by making interventions, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): but at this stage they are going to prevent other colleagues Order. from getting in. 5.54 pm 5.50 pm Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): It has Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): My hon. Friend been a pleasure for us to sit here for the past four hours the Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher) rightly said and exercise by seeking to catch your eye, Madam that to govern is to choose. One of the reasons for the Deputy Speaker,no doubt contributing towards alleviating result of the last general election was that voters knew our future social care needs. that this Government were more likely to make the In the next 20 years the population of England alone difficult choices that were needed. The choices we have will increase by 10%. The number of over-75s in England to make are not always between the good and the will increase by 60%, which is an extra 2.7 million perfect. Many of them involve choosing the less bad people. In 2020-21 there were 1.9 million inquiries for option. As a Conservative, I believe that raising taxes is social care in England. The system is creaking. A third certainly a bad option. It clearly breaches a manifesto of my constituents are over the age of 65. pledge, and it is both economically and morally wrong. This tells us that we need to act now, and I applaud It is economically wrong because higher taxes will dampen the Government for taking decisive action now. I have growth and prosperity in the longer term, and it is concerns about the action we are taking, but we need to morally wrong because it means taking money away act now and the Government are acting now. from those who have worked hard, to be spent elsewhere. I have three concerns about this particular measure. That needs to be kept to a minimum. First, we have a health and social care levy that will, in However, if raising taxation is a bad option, surely its initial existence, go towards health. I am concerned the alternative—not acting—is far, far worse. Not acting about when we take that money out of the NHS and would mean allowing the backlogs that have built up in put it into social care. We know how difficult it was to the NHS through the pandemic to continue. That would convince people that a temporary lift to universal credit put people’s early diagnoses at risk and delay treatments was just temporary. How on earth are we going to further, clearly endangering lives. It would mean not challenge the equivalents of Marcus Rashford when it reforming social care, despite there being almost universal comes to the NHS and persuade people that it is not a agreement that that reform is long overdue. Government cut but was always the plan for a period of time before after Government have promised to take this on, to moving the money into social care? There does not reform social care and to put it on a sustainable footing seem to be any guarantee on that, and I am concerned financially. There have been endless reviews, but each that it will be politically difficult for any Government to time they have ended up in the “too difficult” box. do so. How many of us can go for a week without getting an Secondly, I am concerned about the intergenerational email from a constituent about social care, whether it is unfairness that could be seen in this measure. Along about the quality of social care, access to social care, with others here in the Chamber, I have advocated a top-up fees, their ability to pay or the fear that they will measure that looks for retired people who have a nest have to sell everything they have worked hard and saved egg to pay more for the service they use, rather than for all their life? That is why something needs to be expecting the younger cohort, through national insurance, done. If we agree that action is needed and that we need to have to pay for it when they do not have a home of more money to be spent on the NHS to clear the their own. backlog and reform social care, the only decision we The German model was built because of the regional have to take is how we pay for it. imbalances of reunification, and the Germans considered In the long term, borrowing to pay for this is not a this model and made a provision that everybody would sensible option. There are very few taxes that can raise pay in, workers and employers—the retired had to pay anything like enough money to meet the challenges we both parts—and no one would have to pay more than face. Of course this could be put on VAT, but that is ¤138 a month. That took the political heat out of the clearly a much more regressive option that would place system, and it uses the private insurance market for a disproportionate burden on the least well off. There delivery. People are incentivised to look after their have been various fanciful ideas from some Opposition parents in their own home, and they can take money Back Benchers that basically suggested that someone from the insurance fund to do so. I would like to look else should pay for it, or that there was a hidden pot of further at that model. money that could be raided. It is not there! The fairest If that does not work for the more catastrophic way is to have a levy on national insurance contributions, situations, what about the noble Lord Lilley’s proposal sharing the cost between employees, employers, the of taking a charge against the property, so that a premium self-employed and those who get income from dividends, is paid out—he estimated about £16,000—and on death so that those who earn more pay more. the charge is released from the sale of the property? 397 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 398

Both plans look more towards the people using the increased and the immediate response of those in positions service having to pay into it. Those who are older would of knowledge or responsibility in our health services is see the fairness of that, because it is their children and to say that the funding is not enough. It is dispiriting grandchildren who have to pay the national insurance. and it is irresponsible to the taxpayer. It is not acceptable Thirdly, I am concerned about the overall tax take. that the leadership of the NHS shies away from even the We will have to rein in public spending, as this has to most modest of productivity targets. It is not right that, stop. We need to allocate money towards the NHS with by the British Medical Association’s own calculations, strict criteria on where it will be spent, because it cannot more than half—70,000—of the 134,000 people involved be right that a 27-year-old graduate who is paying back in general practice are non-clinical administrators, and their tuition fees is seeing 42% of their pay go towards yet so many of my constituents find it so hard to get an tax. That is not what Conservatives set out to do; we set appointment. out to give people the opportunity to build dreams. I wish to see reform of social care that eliminates the That said, we need to act now and I recognise that the excessive cost risk for families. I recognise that a private health service needs an injection of funding. I will be insurance market for these risks cannot exist without supporting the Government, but I want to see my three significant state intervention and that, for a period at proposals developed before it is too late. least, taxpayer support is required as care services are reformed. As of today,we have promises but not guarantees for reform. I am placing considerable faith in these 5.58 pm reforms being implemented by 2023. The Government Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): Like and the NHS must deliver. my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman), the Chair of the Select Committee 6.2 pm on Transport, I will be supporting the Government on this measure. In so doing, I will be breaking a pledge in Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con): Increasing the Conservative party manifesto at the last general taxes is not something I take lightly, and it goes against election. That is not done lightly, and I do it for two much of my belief, and of many Conservative Members, mean reasons. in the need for a low-tax, high-wage economy. But the First, the £400 billion cost of covid has created a gap realities we now face of increased pressures on our in the country’s balance sheet that cannot be ignored or health and care system mean we cannot stand still; we wished away. It has to be dealt with, and it is fiscally must invest more in these services. Hundreds in Stoke- responsible for the Government to produce today’s on-Trent South have contacted me previously about the measures. Secondly, as hon. Members have said, we need for more investment in social care and the challenges have deliberated on the reform of social care for more they face in accessing healthcare and medical treatment. than a decade, with every day of delay creating more I am not willing to go on ignoring these calls. For far risks for families. I want reform, and it is best done by too long—decades—social care has been starved of the this Government at this time. real investment it needs. However,there will be consequences from these increases No decision to invest more to the scale required is in tax rates—they will hold the economy back. Public going to be easy, and money must come from somewhere. services require a thriving economy to fund them. In What we have arrived at is probably the least-worst turn, a thriving economy requires people to be inspired option. The approach taken will ensure that this burden to create, take risks, invest capital, make profits and is spread as broadly as possible, so that all those with grow their businesses, skills and talent. As Conservatives, earned income streams must contribute, and protections this is something we understand. It is capitalism and are in place to protect those on lowest incomes. I also competitive markets that deliver. I would like to hear a welcome the suggestions in the guidance that health little more from our Government about how good the services, local authorities and other public services will power of free markets is and a little less boasting about be compensated for these additional costs, as I know the latest ways in which they are spending taxpayers’ there was significant concern about the potential money. implications for these services of those additional costs. With taxation rates already at highs for the past If we are to put this huge investment into improving 60 years, for Conservative Members to describe themselves health and social care, we must also see reforms that are as “low-tax Conservatives” means that they need to be needed to ensure that money goes directly to the frontline supporting efforts to reduce public expenditure. Every of improving services in Stoke-on-Trent. We must see a departmental Minister should right now, ahead of the further integration of services so that patients are truly Budget, be raising the bar for investment decisions and put first, with all local health and care partners fully casting out those projects that fall short. Each Minister committed to delivering the improvements needed, should be taking an axe not just to obvious waste and supporting one another to reduce pressures and ensuring inefficiency, but to meaningful slices of expenditure that people receive the right healthcare at the right time. that reflect an over-bloated state rather than an essential We must also see the money spent better, cutting out public need. That applies to all Departments, including waste and outdated practices where they exist. the Department of Health and Social Care. I hope that the Health and Care Bill passes through The NHS is a great hallmark of British society, but it Parliament as swiftly as possible to bring about vital is not a religion. It is an organisation of people to reforms. Investment must be about the creation of a achieve a social purpose. As an MP, my role—our better funding model for social care that improves quality role—is not to deify the NHS but to hold it to account and reduces the burden on families. I also want Ministers for its effectiveness in achieving that social purpose. It is to focus on ensuring that we develop the insurance so dispiriting when taxpayer funding for healthcare is market to help to protect those whose property values 399 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 400

[Jack Brereton] and Local Government Committee. There were 24 Members on those two Select Committees, 12 of are on the lower end of the scale, such as people in whom were from the Opposition Benches, and we strongly Stoke-on-Trent, because we need to make sure that recommended a solution based on national insurance. people in such properties receive the same protection as We can of course argue about some of the detail of the those in other parts of the country. national insurance proposal, which has been changed in We must also address the huge issues we are seeing in some positive ways over recent days, but simply to access to health treatments and GP services, which have dismiss it out of hand for political purposes is irresponsible. dramatically worsened during the pandemic. It is not I understand that the shadow Minister for social care, good enough that my constituents in Stoke-on-Trent the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), has South have to wait inordinately long times for the also proposed a solution based on national insurance. It treatment they need and cannot get GP appointments. does not make sense simply to say for political purposes We must tackle the backlog at the Royal Stoke and get that the proposal is wrong— primary care fully back to pre-pandemic levels. But we need to go further. Social care is a key part of addressing Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) the pressures, but so is primary care, which must be (Lab) indicated dissent. properly invested in. We must see the development of new integrated healthcare hubs in north Staffordshire, Kevin Hollinrake: The shadow Minister on the Front including the development of the second phase of the Bench can shake her head, but that is the reality behind new Longton health centre in my constituency, the first the proposal. The Chair of the Housing, Communities phase of which will open in the next few weeks. and Local Government Committee, the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), said clearly that he The improvement of both social care and primary still supported a solution based on national insurance. care will mean that secondary care is better supported, ending the scenes of services overwhelmed that we see I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke- frequently today at our local hospitals. In north on-Trent South that this solution is the least worst Staffordshire, our health services face wider challenges option, but we can develop better solutions down the because of the legacies of the burdens caused by Labour’s line. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for PFI disaster, and the hospital was not built to the Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) that the German capacity needed. Many such pressures continue, and solution is better. In Germany, they came together although much progress has been made, we must continue across party lines, based on the national interest, to to see the level of investment that we need in health solve this issue. It was very similar in respect of employer services in Stoke-on-Trent. and employee. The key benefit of the German solution is that when a person comes to be defined as in need of care, instead of the local authority allocating care, they 6.6 pm can choose to take a monthly cash payment, so they can Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): It is a pay a relative, a neighbour or whoever to care for them. pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for A person can be cared for by the people who know Stoke-on-Trent South (Jack Brereton). I absolutely agree them the best, who understand them the best and love with him that the Government’s proposal is probably them the most, which must be better than some of the the least worst option. stories that we hear about care providers who give a pretty poor service, with a 15-minute package now and When it comes to this debate, I feel saddest for the then. many constituents who have come up to me in recent years and said, “When it comes to the big issues—the This must be a better solution, but I have one concern. issues of national interest—why is it that you lot can’t I understand why the scheme has been brought forward work together and come up with a solution?” Clearly, like this, using national insurance. It is because it is this issue is of huge national interest and has been quick and easy, and we need the money today, but the debated in this House many times over recent decades. I concern is about hypothecation, which many Members have been involved in debates dozens of times in the six have mentioned. This was a social care levy, but already years I have been here. I blame colleagues from either some of it is going to the health service. That is our side of the House—from both the Labour and Conservative understanding at the start. Hypothecated taxes simply parties. Whether it is the “death tax” or the “dementia do not work, and we see that time and again. It would tax”, people have come forward with proposals only to be better to develop this into a proper social insurance be rubbished by the other side for political purposes. system with not-for-profit providers, so that it does not go into the private sector, but instead the money could The reality is that this issue is one of many challenges be paid in on a proper hypothecated basis to deal with that we are going to face over the next few decades. the long-term problem of social care. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, if we do not change our tax system, our debt-to-GDP ratio will be 400% of GDP by 2060, because of pension, 6.10 pm healthcare and social care costs. We must sort out this Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con): It is a pleasure issue on a cross-party basis so that we have a long-term to follow a typically well-informed speech from my hon. solution. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin The reality is that we have had cross-party consensus. Hollinrake). As I have said several times in the past couple of days, I I stood for election to be a Member of this Parliament have taken part in two Select Committee inquiries on because I want to be part of a party and Government the issue, the most recent a joint inquiry by the Health who strive to improve the lives of all of our constituents. and Social Care Committee and the Housing, Communities I am Conservative because I believe in being pragmatic 401 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 402 and realistic, not stuck in ideological thinking, but does not refer to 1.5% or to how much will be spent on willing to find solutions to seemingly intractable problems social care. It just says that we are bringing in a new tax. and, more importantly, making sure that those solutions We are doing that, though, without having the detail. If are fit for the times in which we find ourselves. As other this was a Budget, the Chancellor would stand up and hon. Friends have mentioned, I will not shy away from make a powerful speech, and there would be an immense making difficult decisions, which our constituents elect amount of applause on that day for what he said. us to take. People would then read the Red Book, for five days they When Labour was in power, it failed to fix the roof would unpick the Budget, and then we would vote on when the sun was shining. Now the pandemic has the Ways and Means motion. clouded our bright skies, but we are determined to grip I am very unhappy with today’s procedure. Although this issue and to fix the social care crisis once and for I support the idea of more money for the NHS and I all, as we promised. What are we promising to do with have no objection to it being done through national the NHS and social care levy? This £12 billion average insurance, I absolutely object to saying that this has annual investment over the next three years means that anything to do with the Health and Care Bill, because we will invest the largest amount of any Government to that has not been through the House. Social care should upskill the social care workforce, strengthen the adult be paid for separately. We should have the Bill and social care system, tackle the elective backlog in the debate it, it should go through Committee stage and NHS as it recovers from coronavirus, fund nurses a 3% through the Lords, and then it should be paid for. I have pay rise as the independent pay review body recommended, no idea which clever-clogs in No. 10 thought it was a build resilience for future pandemics, ensure that the great idea to mix these two things up. Social care is one NHS has the resources it needs throughout this Parliament, of the most important things—if not the most important— and, finally, implement a Dilnot solution to cap social that this House will have to decide on. It should be done care costs. separately and properly. In addition, we promised to deliver 50,000 more nurses, The Opposition should be working with us. They 50 million more GP appointments and build 40 new have scored so many political points today. My hon. hospitals. The Conservatives are the party of the NHS Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Ben and it is frankly unbelievable that the Labour party will Everitt) said it: last night was one of those nights when not vote this evening to give the NHS the funding that it we do not sleep because we are worrying about how to needs. vote. Should I vote for this because I want to support This £36 billion investment to reform the NHS and the Prime Minister? Should I vote against it because I social care is a responsible, fair and necessary plan. do not agree with the principle? Or should I do nothing Many of my constituents in Guildford, Cranleigh and because I think it is a good idea and a bad idea at the our villages will be feeling a sense of relief today for the same time, because the Government have mixed the two genuine anxiety they feel. We know that the pandemic things up? I will make my decision after having listened has created an enormous backlog in the NHS, with to the shadow Minister and the Minister; as of now, I more than 300,000 now having waited over a year for have no idea what I am going to do tonight. non-urgent care. We know that our constituents have wanted a plan for social care for decades, as many 6.17 pm colleagues have mentioned today. Importantly, we know that our constituents understand fairness, which is why Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con): It I will be supporting the Government today. is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone). 6.13 pm I am in absolutely no doubt that we need to raise the money to enable the NHS to recover from the pandemic. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a great It would be wrong to raise this money through more pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for borrowing. We should not expect our children and Guildford (Angela Richardson), who set out her position grandchildren to settle the debt at some time in the very clearly. future; we need a plan to pay for it now. I have to say that this is the first time in all my time in The criticisms of this motion come not so much from Parliament that a Ways and Means motion has been the fact that the Government are choosing to raise the debated all day. It seems to me that this has been more money, but more from the way in which it is being like a general debate on the NHS and social care. I raised. Those criticisms centre around one concept: the remind the House that Parliament says: idea of fairness. As we have heard in this debate, fairness “A ways and means resolution is needed to authorise the is extremely important for Conservatives.If the Government … creation, extension or increase of taxes or other charges Ways are to be the force for good that they should be, we need and means motions are most commonly put to the House for agreement immediately after second reading”. to ensure that our policies are as fair as possible—that benefits and costs fall in a fair and equitable way across In other words, there is a Bill that we discuss; it is laid the population. I accept that there is some unfairness out there. There should have been a social care Bill. We around using national insurance to raise the levy, but in should have had that Bill and been able to debate the order to raise the cash required, we must use a broad-based principle of it and then immediately afterwards voted tax. A VAT rise would have a disproportionate impact on the Ways and Means, but we have got this mixed up on those with low incomes and using income tax would with giving more money to the national health service. not incur a contribution from businesses. Of course, A Ways and Means motion to increase a tax in order businesses very much benefit from health and social to pay more money to the health service is quite acceptable. care, as huge numbers of people would have to leave the I mean, we are creating a new tax. The motion today workforce if those services did not exist. 403 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 404

[Miriam Cates] our money. It is money earned by people working their socks off to provide for their family, their friends, their On reflection, I think that using national insurance to employees and for the health and prosperity of this raise this levy is a fair way to proceed, especially given country, and we cannot abuse that. that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has made sure I entirely support what my right hon. Friend the that dividends and working people of pensionable age Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) said, are included. I support the motion today because we in a superb speech, when he referred to a Trojan horse. have to acknowledge that politics is not about striving If I can paraphrase, we, as Conservatives, are introducing for perfect solutions. It is about finding the best solutions a new tax that will never, ever be withdrawn because, possible within the financial, practical and moral constraints come election time, we would have to say,“Okay,remember that bind us all. However, although the money raised everybody—that was a one-off tax, so it is now going through this motion will be a start, it will not be and billions of pounds are being withdrawn from the enough. national health service.” I think I can see where the We have to accept that health and care costs are many Opposition will go with that and what will appear on times higher now than they once were. I echo the their literature in 2024. comments of my hon. Friends the Members for Wycombe With regard to promises made in manifestos, can we (Mr Baker) and for Milton Keynes North (Ben Everitt) not think just a little more carefully about what we say? on this point. When the welfare state was born, life No one could have predicted the pandemic—I am deeply expectancy was about 65. Many people left school in sympathetic to the Government on that point, because their early teens and entered the workplace. In the 1940s, of course we could not. But perhaps we should say that an individual might well spend fewer than 20 years of we aim to do something rather than that we promise to their lives not working. Now people can spend more do something, because circumstances change, and when than 40 years of their life not working. Simply put, one Government take over from another they change during our working lives we must now pay a lot more the whole thing anyway, and then, if we win again, we —double, or perhaps more—in taxation, pension have to change it once more. contributions and insurance to fund our decades of economic inactivity. We cannot escape that fact. Throwing money into the national health service black hole is not the solution. The sad fact is that So in raising any additional money in future we must parties of all colours over many years have failed to be far-sighted, inventive, creative and look to other tackle the NHS issue. We need radical reform both of countries, as other hon. Members have said. In addition the NHS and, of course, social care. I am not saying to taxation, we could look to build on the success of our that we should change the care free at the point of automatic enrolment model for workplace pensions or delivery—not at all; I am saying that there is plenty of consider some form of contributory insurance scheme. room for reform. Most of those I have spoken to who But we must also be clear that there are alternatives to work in it absolutely agree. It is a matter of political ever-increasing bills for health and social care, so I hope courage to actually get on and do it. to see extensive consideration of local, community and capability approaches in the White Paper. We must not We are Conservatives. A pandemic, appalling though forget the crucial role of the family. How can we help it is, creates opportunities. Where is the vision of the families to look after their own relatives’ wealth for Singapore-style, low-tax economy attracting the world’s longer and with appropriate support? best to this country to generate the wealth and prosperity that we need? To generate the revenue we need, we lower I acknowledge and understand that there are criticisms taxes—that is proven. We do not raise them, because if of this motion, but doing nothing is not an option. we do, all we do is damage our economy and have less When it comes to finding a pragmatic solution to such a money to spend on the things we need, like social care difficult and urgent issue, I am convinced that this is a and the NHS. fair approach for now.

6.20 pm 6.24 pm Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I totally sympathise Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): One thing that concerns with those on the Front Bench and I have huge respect me is that I saw some polling earlier this week showing for the Treasury Minister who is in his place, but I am that only about 25% of the population know that social concerned, as a Conservative, at the direction of travel. care has to be paid for. That in itself is something we As we have heard, taxes are at their highest for 60 or need to address through a certain level of engagement. 70 years—and this under a Conservative Government. If a lot of the people who are dismissing and opposing For me, and I think for many of us and people around the national insurance rise truly understood and the country too, the alarm bells are ringing. I do not like comprehended the devastating consequences of out-of- being bounced into this decision. I think someone control social care costs, they might think differently. mentioned sleepless nights. Well, we will not have any Where are we right now? We are in a situation where because the decision is being made tonight, having been we have spent £400 billion since the start of the pandemic. told about it only 48 hours earlier, and we still need to We have waiting lists growing and spiralling out of hear a lot more from the Government about how this is control as a result of the pandemic. Weall have constituents all going to work. who are waiting in pain for hip and knee replacements My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) and more serious operations. We have constituents, talked about the lack of money as our population gets including mine, who are not able to see their GP face to older and the continual demands on the public sector face and all the consequences of that. That needs to be increase. He is absolutely right. We cannot go on just addressed urgently. My constituents should be able to spending the taxpayer’s money willy-nilly. This is not see their GP face to face when they need to do that. 405 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 406

We are in this appalling situation, and I take issue care costs. Yet again, a Conservative Government are with the dismissive way that Opposition Members have taking the difficult decisions that others have avoided. spoken about many of the individuals who could benefit My remarks today will focus on fairness and the nature from the social care cap, referring to them all as millionaires of health and social care demand. in Surrey. The people I know who have been clobbered First, on fairness, somehow the political debate in by social care bills are not millionaires in Surrey; they are this country—fuelled by those on the Opposition people who have worked hard their entire life, paid Benches—focuses on fairness as only one thing: the tax on what they earned and at the end of their life, they need for the better off to pay more. That is definitely an have something to show for it. It is not just bricks and important element of fairness in society, and we see that mortar; it is a home that they love and that they raised with these proposals, with the top 14% of earners their kids in. Not unreasonably, they want to pass that paying half of this new levy. It is not the only measure on to their kids. When their mental and physical health of fairness, however. The other important way to decide is deteriorating, to see everything they have worked hard whether a society is fair is to think about what someone for whittled away in a matter of years is utterly depressing gets back compared with what they put in. We do not and morally wrong. I am proud to support a cap that talk enough about the fact that a small number of addresses that, and I make no apology for doing so. people pay many, many times over what they get back In terms of the manifesto point, I stood on a and that some people pay almost nothing and get manifesto—we all did—and there was a pandemic straight everything paid for by others. Hon. Members on both after we had the election. This is an extraordinary sides of the House have talked about the challenge for situation, and probably nothing has happened since the those on low incomes and the proportion that will be second world war that has had such a dramatic effect on taken from their income by a tax rise, but it works both cost and spend. We spent £400 billion. People make this ways. Those same people, relative to what they put in, inaccurate comparison with George H.W. Bush and get a lot back when they seek health and social care “read my lips”. Over the summer, I had a few days off, services. and I read a very long book about George H.W. Bush. He did not have a pandemic happen a year after he A person from a middle-income family could pay stood for election. It just simply did not happen. It is significant amounts in tax over many decades and buy like writing a manifesto in 1938 and then realising that their home but then see that home and nearly every thousands of Spitfires have to be built because the penny of what they saved taken off them to pay for second world war is starting. The money has to be social care. They could live next door to someone who raised somehow, and to say, “We cannot possibly do has paid perhaps no tax or a low rate of tax and gets that, because we cannot change the manifesto we stood everything paid for them. They end up in exactly the on a year ago”, would be absolutely absurd. same boat, with nothing to show for what they saved, despite the huge difference in what they put in through What are we dealing with right now? We are dealing taxes. That is simply not fair. In this case, people on with a situation where we have a cap of £86,000. We lower incomes will continue to benefit from essentially need to know more. We need to know more particularly free social care; they are just being asked to contribute a about those with £20,000 to £100,000 and how their little bit more, and inevitably a little bit more will be care costs will be subsidised. We understand that the spent on them. That is fairness, too. councils will help with that. I need to know more about how that will work in practice. I sympathise with my I turn to demand for health and social care, and a hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna point that perhaps will not be popular on my side of Davison) and others who represent areas with hard-working the House. I am a Conservative and do not want the constituents where house prices are very different from Government to pay for everything on behalf of everybody, those in London. We need to know more about that. but the facts of health and social care spending are Ultimately, we have seen the Prime Minister speak on fundamentally different from those of other areas of this issue, and we have seen his passion. He is right to be spending. In real terms, what it costs to run an education passionate about this. The easy thing for him to do system, prison service or public transport should be would be to use the pandemic as an excuse to push this broadly stable—if anything, it might go down—but issue into the long grass, but he has not done that. He every time we treat someone successfully in the NHS, has done the difficult thing and grasped the nettle. I am one of two things happens. Either the condition becomes proud that he is our leader and our Prime Minister. He chronic or comes back and we have to treat them again is doing that. What else was in the manifesto? Sorting or, if it does not come back, they live longer and out social care. No one should suggest we push that into become ill with another condition. That is an unalterable the long grass. The Labour party does not want to reality, and it will happen more and more as we improve decrease international aid, it wants us to make the our healthcare services. universal credit increase permanent and it wants us to A heart attack is a good example. We have improved spend £16 billion on this and that. Labour never says no enormously the number of lives we save when someone to a pay increase. I know what will be in my manifesto: has a heart attack, but that means more people live with you voted against— chronic heart conditions that result from their heart attack, or they may live longer and end up with another Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): condition—perhaps cancer or dementia—and we have Order. to pay for that on top. [Interruption.] I join Opposition Members in saying that that is not a bad thing. We have 6.28 pm not failed because we have spent more money on people’s Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): I health and social care. It is not a negative—we are begin by joining others in applauding this Government providing a greater public benefit—but ultimately, over for finally tackling the social injustice of catastrophic time, even if we tackle all the inefficiencies and challenges 407 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 408

[Dr Kieran Mullan] much more efficient on the whole in using those funds. Wemust avoid, as manyMembers have said, that convenient in healthcare spending we see in the NHS and get all political mistake of allowing all the money to disappear those things right, we will still need to spend more on into an NHS black hole with nothing to show for it. health and social care. That is why I welcome the However, having learned the lessons of the better care proposal. fund, we have to ensure that those additional national We need to start separating the discussion on tax and insurance costs do not consume the extra funding. I spend for health and social care from that on other have heard Ministers’ assurances about this, but the areas of public spending, and the step we are taking to care sector has heard many times of new funding that create some hypothecation, which is similar to that seen has been cancelled out by deductions from other budgets, in other countries through insurance, does that. People so we need absolute clarity that this will find its way to can therefore understand that we have not failed because the frontline. we have spent more and that we all need to spend more The second point I would like to highlight is that this to ensure that we get the continued public benefit of does not just affect the elderly. About two thirds of living longer, with health and social care supporting us social care costs are for working age adults and children, to do that, so that we can spend more time with our and the NHS is barely involved in many of those cases. friends and families. However, the costs can be eye-wateringly high, so we I will support the motion and encourage Members on need to make sure that as we direct those funds, as my both sides of the House to engage more thoroughly hon. Friends have highlighted, they are getting to where with the challenges of rising costs in health and social they are required. care. This is not just about waste, efficiency and all these The third lesson, which has been mentioned by a other things; it is actually in the nature of delivering couple of Members, is about how the market responds. better health and social care for a population. We have a thriving market for social care in this country, including charities, the private sector and local authorities. We know many of those organisations will see the 6.32 pm £86,000 as a very tempting target: the sooner someone David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) spends their £86,000, the sooner the state steps in. We (Con): The key issue for me is not so much with raising need to ensure that we have learned the lessons of what the funds—there are no perfect solutions for that—but has happened with the involvement of some businesses, with the spending of them. I am more than happy to particularly in the children’s social care sector, and look my constituents in the eye and say “I voted to raise make sure this is not seen as simply an opportunity to taxes” if I can demonstrate that we have something to rip off the taxpayer. show for it. Those of us with a local government Finally, may I urge Ministers to review the operation background will know that the social care sector has of the fair access criteria and the rules that underpin been crying out for a sustainable financial settlement them? The rule of provide for one and provide for all, for at least two decades. which was clarified by a subsequent judicial review for The fair access criteria that were implemented by a the London Borough of Harrow, forced the retrenchment Labour Government in 2003 precipitated a financial of local authorities in adult social care towards serving crisis in a sector that was already under pressure by only the most critical needs of people in our constituencies. removing local authority discretion over services and failing to provide the funding for the new model, and Mark Fletcher: My hon. Friend is giving an excellent charging policies and council tax precepts have proved speech. One thing he has touched on, but perhaps not unable to bridge that gap. As a chairman of a social expanded on, is the efficiencies that local government services committee in those days, I looked my local has found. Are there any particular lessons that he residents in the eye while imposing Labour’s charging thinks are relevant to the NHS as we move forward? policy for social care on them, so I welcome the Government’s courage in bringing forward a proposal Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): that looks both realistic and workable. Order. We really are pushed for time, and this is not fair on those who are winding up. Ben Everitt: Does my hon. Friend, with his local government background, think that this policy will fit David Simmonds: Concluding rapidly, Madam Deputy within a wider local government finance reform agenda? Speaker, that is a very important point. We need to recognise, as many constituents are surprised to discover, David Simmonds: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct that as a matter of law very strict eligibility criteria to highlight that wider reform agenda. I know we are restrict what they can access. We need to ensure, as we anticipating more detailed proposals from the Government reform the sector, that we free up local authorities to use in due course, but it is clear, as he will know from his these resources to meet the demographic challenges. local government experience, that if we in this House are serious about fixing social care—much of which is 6.38 pm not about the elderly, but about working with adults Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) and children with disabilities—we must learn the lessons (Lab): It is customary when closing a debate to say that from the sector of several decades of change. we have had a good debate, and indeed we have, but First, we must reflect on the lessons of the better care what has been most striking is how inadequate a basis fund, which taught us that councils have been the it has been for a change of this magnitude to the efficient delivery partner. Even when the sole focus has tax system of our country. I intend to come back to been to relieve pressure on the NHS, councils have been that point. 409 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 410

We have heard a number of extremely sharp and It is usual for major fiscal events in the House to be insightful contributions, including from my hon. Friends timetabled in advance. Indeed, this week the Chancellor the Members for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle) and put us all on notice of a comprehensive spending review for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome), who talked and an autumn Budget at the end of next month. It is very powerfully about how what has been set out does also usual for major fiscal events to be accompanied by nothing to improve the working conditions facing social independent and thorough scrutiny by the Office for care workers, many of whom will now themselves be Budget Responsibility. It is usual for those forecasts to facing a tax rise. I would just like to say that it is be published alongside the Government’s plans, so that wonderful to see my hon. Friend the Member for all Members of the House can understand, in detail, Nottingham East back in her place in this House. what they are voting for and how it will affect the public We have heard contributions from the Chair of the finances, the livelihoods of our constituents and the Public Accounts Committee, my hon. Friend the Member success of the economy. for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier), The OBR’s typically thorough work back in March and the Chair of the Housing, Communities and Local produced a report with more than 130 charts and tables, Government Committee, my hon. Friend the Member but the flimsy document produced by the Government for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who asked very yesterday had just three. I recall when some Government important questions of Ministers. We did not get answers Members were sticklers for the rights of this House, and to those questions, and I hope the Chief Secretary will sticklers for procedure and proper time to debate and address the really important points that were raised. I consider changes that will have a huge impact on our will touch on those a little later. society and the shape of our economy. It seems that those days are long gone. The change we are being We also heard from my hon. Friends the Members asked to vote through tonight is not being introduced in for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), for Eltham this extraordinary form because that is right for the (Clive Efford), for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin), for country. The House knows that. It is because it is the Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle), for Bristol right approach for the Prime Minister: announcement South (Karin Smyth), for Lewisham East (Janet Daby) on Tuesday, vote on Wednesday, and perhaps a reshuffle and for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West). later this week—Back-Bench rebellion averted. That is They covered a range of different points, but they were no way to run a country. all clear that this does not represent a proper plan for the NHS or for social care. It is, instead, a broken Let us be clear about what is happening. This House promise. Two and a half million working households is being asked to approve, with almost no notice, an will be hit by the Tory double whammy of cuts to extra £11.4 billion of taxation on workers and businesses, universal credit and an increase in national insurance. and an extra £600 million of dividend taxes—95% of the new revenue is to come from taxing jobs and earnings. Understandably, I have focused on contributions from When this Government need income, they do not turn Labour Members, and I am sad that, except for a few first to those with assets, stocks and shares and property, Conservative Members—notably the right hon. Member or to those with the broadest shoulders who can afford for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry)—many of a little more. No, they turn to working people: to those those who bravely stated their reservations over the who work hard to earn their income, and their employers. weekend to the Sunday newspapers have been strangely They break a solemn promise that every Government silent this evening. I hoped we might have heard from Member made to the people of this country. That is a whichever Tory MP said that putting up national insurance choice, and it is not a choice that the Labour party would be “morally and economically wrong”, and that: would make. … “It kicks in at a low level If you get all your income from Two other major questions emerge from the contributions investments and property you don’t pay a penny, but if you work your guts out for minimum wage you get clobbered.” today. Where is the Government’s actual plan? We need a real plan for social care, not a few numbered paragraphs I could not agree more. and a handful of case studies. Labour’s priority would be to give older and disabled people the chance to live Kevin Hollinrake: That point about rental income has the life they choose, shifting the focus of support towards been made on a number of occasions. If someone holds prevention and early help. Let us not forget in this place their properties in a limited company and they take that around half of the social care budget supports their profits through dividends, those dividends are working-age adults with disabilities. They are far too taxed to include the social care levy. Will the hon. Lady often overlooked in discussions about social care, and put the record straight and accept that that is the case? the Government’s announcement does nothing for them. Alongside a strong and skilled social care workforce, Bridget Phillipson: It is ludicrous that a landlord will Labour would deliver a new deal for care workers to be paying not a single penny more, but their tenants—many create a well-motivated and properly rewarded workforce, of them perhaps working in the NHS or social care—are with clear support for unpaid carers—the very people about to be clobbered by a tax rise. Some 95% of what is who got us through the last 18 months, whom we clapped to be raised from this measure will come from working and claimed to care about. There is absolutely no sign people and businesses. What the hon. Gentleman says is of that plan here today or in the documents published simply not right. I understand that one former Cabinet yesterday.The document that the Government published Minister used perhaps more colourful language this yesterday is strikingly poor on the practicalities of afternoon, and I will not test your patience, Madam delivery, not just for social care but for our NHS too. Deputy Speaker, by repeating exactly what they said. Our national health service was chronically overstretched Safe to say, however, that he or she is not a fan of this long before the pandemic hit. We entered the pandemic Tory tax hike. with over 100,000 vacancies. By March this year, there 411 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 412

[Bridget Phillipson] system. Typically, around one in seven must pay over £100,000 for care, with bills falling indiscriminately on were 5 million people on waiting lists for NHS treatment— some of the sickest and most vulnerable in society. waiting longer for cancer care, longer for vital surgery, The Government’s response, the plan we have debated longer for mental health support. What we have been today, means an investment of £36 billion in the health given today is not a plan; it is the promise—another and social care system over the next three years. Patients promise—of a plan to follow. The Minister could not across the country will benefit from the biggest catch-up even tell us what the impact would be on waiting times. programme in the history of the NHS. The social care He could not tell us what it meant for local authorities system will finally be reformed, ending unpredictable on the frontline. He could not give us details of how and catastrophic care costs faced by thousands and public sector bodies are expected to meet the cost. It is making the system fairer for all. I gently say to the not a plan; it is just a tax rise. shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury,the hon. Member Much of today’s debate has focused on whether it is for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), the right sort of tax rise. Sometimes it is easy to focus who said a moment ago that this is not the right time, on the fiscal aspects and forget the economic aspects. that many times in this House people have highlighted Our recovery is still fragile. Businesses are under enormous the urgency of acting both on the covid backlog and on pressure. We all know it; many are yet to fully reopen, social care. and many are not yet operating at full capacity. Yet the Chancellor has been putting up council tax, he is slashing Jake Berry: My right hon. Friend has helpfully said universal credit, he is freezing income tax thresholds—he that one in seven—I believe that is what he said—people is sucking demand out of our economy at the worst currently in the care system pay over £100,000. Could possible time. he just say in absolute numbers how many that is, in any The shadow Chancellor, my hon. Friend the Member given year or period he chooses? If he does not have the for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), set out powerfully what information with him tonight or cannot get it from the these measures mean for working people, but this is a Box, can he write to me with that information and put a series of hammer blows for firms, too. Small businesses, copy in the House of Commons Library before we have struggling to get back on track after a terrible 18 months, our next debate? have been clear, in the words of the Federation of Small Businesses, that this is “precisely the wrong moment” to Steve Barclay: I am glad my right hon. Friend highlights be putting up the cost of taking on and retaining staff. that point. Let me address it in two ways, because it The FSB estimates that these changes could mean an goes to the crux of his remarks in the debate. We have extra 50,000 people out of work. set out, as was referred to even by critics of the Government, the illustrative analysis of the impact of this from a This is the wrong process to agree the wrong tax at distributional point of view,with lower-income households the wrong time. It will not deliver what is promised for being the largest net beneficiaries. We have also said our health and social care sectors. The Health Secretary that we will say more on that, because it will evolve by cannot even tell us whether it will clear the NHS backlog 2023, when those of state age who are working come in this Parliament. It will not give social care the resources within scope. Obviously, the distributional analysis will it needs in the next three years. There is not a plan for change. reform of social care. This tax rise will not create more and better-paid jobs in the wider economy, it is not fair Let me take head on my right hon. Friend’s central across the regions, it will not end people having to sell concern, which was that his constituents in Rossendale their homes to fund their care, and it will not help our and Darwen, because of lower housing costs, will be economic recovery. The Prime Minister cannot even disproportionately impacted. First, if one looks at London, guarantee that it is the last unfair tax rise of this the Evening Standard, for example, is concerned that Parliament. Tonight, we are not voting for a plan to fix 14% will pay the lion’s share of the cost because that is social care. There isn’t one. We are voting on the third where the highest concentration of higher tax payers Tory tax rise on working people, and we will oppose it. are. For his constituents, one key aspect of the reform is that, through the cap, it ends the unpredictability of costs. If I look at the north-east of England, the Resolution Foundation found that only 29% of individuals aged 6.48 pm over 70 have sufficient eligible assets that they will not The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Steve Barclay): receive any state support. The point is that the uplifting Let me first thank hon. and right hon. Members for in the means test, which my right hon. Friend the their thoughtful and constructive contributions to today’s Chancellor set out, again benefits those parts of the debate. country he was championing. Yesterday, the Prime Minister set out a series of Jake Berry: Will my right hon. Friend give way? necessary steps to tackle the covid backlogs, reform adult social care and bring the health and social care system closer together on a long-term, sustainable footing. Steve Barclay: I have just given way and addressed my As the House well knows, the pandemic has put right hon. Friend’s points head on. Let me, in turn, unprecedented pressure on the NHS. The number of address head on the points raised by the shadow Chancellor, patients waiting for elective surgery and routine treatment the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves). in England is now at a record high of 5.5 million. If left In the shadow Chancellor’s speech, she said that she unchecked, that could reach 13 million, an issue of opposed the levy despite, as a number of Members concern across the House. At the same time, this country pointed out, the previous Labour Government taking a is facing a long-standing challenge to the social care similar approach in 2002-03, because she supports taxing 413 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 414 wealth. The problem with that is that only a broad-based for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), who highlighted tax base, such as income tax, VAT or national insurance the impact on business and the fact that businesses, with contributions, can raise the sums needed for such a 1% of the highest turnover, will cover 70% of the cost. significant investment. Again, that was a point made by critics of the Government, including my good friend, Mr Betts: I think the right hon. Gentleman probably my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker). knows which point I am going to raise. I am very It could not be raised by taxes on wealth. Currently interested in the impact on local authorities. Out of the £6 billion is raised from inheritance tax, £8.7 billion £36 billion that will be raised over three years, how from capital gains tax and £12.3 billion from property much extra money will go to local authorities after the transaction tax. Indeed, that case was demolished by costs of the “cap and floor” system have been taken the Chair of the Treasury Committee, my right hon. into account? How much extra money over three years Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), as will go to local authorities out of the £36 billion? well as by my hon. Friends the Members for Dudley South (Mike Wood) and for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Steve Barclay: I listened very closely to the hon. Hollinrake), who highlighted that to raise the revenue Gentleman’s speech, because he is a very informed and required requires a broad-based approach. knowledgeable commentator on these issues. He rightly pointed to paragraph 36, where we are being very clear Peter Grant: On the subject of cases being demolished, about the role in terms of demographic and unit pressure. one of the cases that the right hon. Gentleman’scolleagues As he well knows, part of the discussion at a spending have made great deal of play of today is that of the review is to look at local government pressures in the fictional Yusuf in the Government’s own document. round. That is in the context that local authorities are According to the Government, Yusuf’s care home costs getting an additional £2.2 billion of funding. I remind are £700 a week. They claim that under the current the House, in terms of the adult social care flexibility system they would have had to spend £293,000 before that was allowed for councils this year, that out of the they reached the current cap. The Minister will be 152 local authorities, less than two thirds actually used aware—I hope he can count—that in order to spend that flexibility. That is part of looking at these issues in £293,000 at £700 a week— context. Let me come to the central point put forward by the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I Scottish National party, which was very well demolished would like the hon. Gentleman to put his question. by my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont). All parts of the United Peter Grant: What percentage of people going into a Kingdom need a long-term solution to fund health and care home have any chance of still being alive in nine social care. The Scottish Government’s independent years’ time? review of adult social care recently noted—[Interruption.] I am quoting from their own review. I thought they Steve Barclay: One of the features of the Dilnot would want to hear that. It stated that proposals—Dilnot has been very frank about this—is “Scotland’s ageing demography means that more money will need that his costs ramp up over time. That is why the initial to be spent on adult social care over the long term”— funding is £5.4 billion, but obviously, the social care and its recommendations to the Scottish Government element will increase. I will come to the case put forward are that this would by SNP Members, who seem bizarrely not to want the “require a long-term and substantial uplift in adult social care Union dividend that is offered and to not be seeking funding.” that additional funding. Let me finish on the Opposition In fact, in 2002, John Swinney said that a 1% increase amendment— was “progressive taxation…required to invest in the health service in Richard Thomson: Will the right hon. Gentleman give Scotland”.—[Scottish Parliament Official Report, 18 April 2002; way? c. 8005.]

Steve Barclay: I will come to the points on devolution Alison Thewliss: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept and happily give way at that stage, but let me just deal that that was 18 years ago and that things have changed? with the Opposition amendment, which requests a Since that time, national insurance has not been reformed distributional impact assessment. As we have covered, in any way to protect the poorest, as income tax has that has been set out today. The Government have been. already published a document on the impact of our health and social care plan on households, looking at Steve Barclay: Obviously, what SNP Members regard the impact of the new spending and the levy, with a full as progressive has changed. The point is that if they distributional analysis being published at the Budget disagree with this, they can adjust their Barnett and spending review. consequentials, spend that and reprioritise their spending As for the impact on businesses, businesses will play accordingly. Indeed, likewise, the hon. Member for their part in funding this plan. However, existing national Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)—I insurance contribution reliefs and allowances will also hold him in great affection and he speaks very powerfully apply to the levy. This means that 40% of all businesses in the Chamber—said that these are “English priorities”. will not be affected due to the employment allowance, Clearing the covid backlog and addressing the challenges and it allows eligible employees to reduce their national of social care are not English priorities. They are United insurance liability by up to £4,000. Again, that point Kingdom priorities, they are this Government’s priorities, was brought out by my right hon. Friend the Member and they are the people’s priorities. 415 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 416

[Steve Barclay] Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Davies-Jones, Alex Law, Chris This levy will enable the biggest catch-up initiative in De Cordova, Marsha Leadbeater, Kim the history of the NHS, a comprehensive long-term Debbonaire, Thangam Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma solution to the social care challenge and a significant Docherty-Hughes, Martin Lewis, Clive long-term investment that will directly improve people’s Dodds, Anneliese Linden, David Doogan, Dave Lockhart, Carla lives. Dorans, Allan Long Bailey, Rebecca Those are things that I think my hon. Friend the Member Doughty, Stephen Lucas, Caroline for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) values, and I hope he Dromey, Jack Lynch, Holly will support them. Duffield, Rosie MacAskill, Kenny The Prime Minister said yesterday: Eagle, Dame Angela Madders, Justin Eagle, Maria Mahmood, Mr Khalid “You can’t fix the covid backlogs without giving the NHS the Eastwood, Colum Mahmood, Shabana money it needs; you can’t fix the NHS without fixing social care; Edwards, Jonathan Malhotra, Seema you can’t fix social care without removing the fear of losing Efford, Clive Maskell, Rachael everything to pay for social care”.—[Official Report, 7 September Elliott, Julie McCabe, Steve 2021; Vol. 700, c. 155.] Elmore, Chris McCarthy, Kerry This plan addresses those problems. I commend it to Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain the House. Evans, Chris McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Farry, Stephen McDonald, Stuart C. 7 pm Fellows, Marion McDonnell, rh John Debate interrupted (Order, this day). Flynn, Stephen McFadden, rh Mr Pat Fovargue, Yvonne McGinn, Conor The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary Foxcroft, Vicky McGovern, Alison for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Foy, Mary Kelly McKinnell, Catherine time. Gardiner, Barry McLaughlin, Anne Amendment proposed: (c), in line 10, at end add Gibson, Patricia McMahon, Jim Gill, Preet Kaur McMorrin, Anna “, provided that the condition in paragraph (2) of this resolution Girvan, Paul Mearns, Ian is met. Glindon, Mary Miliband, rh Edward (2) The condition in this paragraph is that the Chancellor of the Grady, Patrick Mishra, Navendu Exchequer has, no later than 5 April 2022, laid before the House Grant, Peter Monaghan, Carol of Commons: Green, Kate Moran, Layla (a) an assessment of the impact of these measures on jobs and Green, Sarah Morgan, Stephen businesses, and Greenwood, Lilian Murray, Ian (b) a distributional impact assessment of these measures on Greenwood, Margaret Murray, James different income groups and regions.”.—(Bridget Phillipson.) Griffith, Nia Nandy, Lisa Question put, That the amendment be made. Gwynne, Andrew Newlands, Gavin Haigh, Louise Nicolson, John The House divided: Ayes 243, Noes 335. Hamilton, Fabian Norris, Alex Division No. 62] [7 pm Hanna, Claire O’Hara, Brendan Hanvey, Neale Olney, Sarah AYES Hardy, Emma Onwurah, Chi Harris, Carolyn Oppong-Asare, Abena Abbott, rh Ms Diane Butler, Dawn Hayes, Helen Osborne, Kate Abrahams, Debbie Byrne, Ian Hendrick, Sir Mark Oswald, Kirsten Ali, Rushanara Byrne, rh Liam Hendry, Drew Owatemi, Taiwo Ali, Tahir Cadbury, Ruth Hillier, Dame Meg Owen, Sarah Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Cameron, Dr Lisa Hobhouse, Wera Paisley, Ian Amesbury, Mike Campbell, rh Sir Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Peacock, Stephanie Anderson, Fleur Carden, Dan Hollern, Kate Pennycook, Matthew Antoniazzi, Tonia Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hopkins, Rachel Perkins, Mr Toby Ashworth, rh Jonathan Chamberlain, Wendy Hosie, rh Stewart Phillips, Jess Bardell, Hannah Champion, Sarah Howarth, rh Sir George Phillipson, Bridget Beckett, rh Margaret Chapman, Douglas Huq, Dr Rupa Pollard, Luke Begum, Apsana Charalambous, Bambos Hussain, Imran Qaisar-Javed, Anum Benn, rh Hilary Cherry, Joanna Jardine, Christine Qureshi, Yasmin Betts, Mr Clive Clark, Feryal Jarvis, Dan Rayner, rh Angela Black, Mhairi Cooper, Daisy Johnson, Kim Reed, Steve Blackford, rh Ian Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Darren Rees, Christina Blackman, Kirsty Corbyn, rh Jeremy Jones, Gerald Reeves, Ellie Blake, Olivia Cowan, Ronnie Jones, rh Mr Kevan Reeves, Rachel Blomfield, Paul Coyle, Neil Jones, Ruth Reynolds, Jonathan Bonnar, Steven Crawley, Angela Jones, Sarah Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Creasy, Stella Kane, Mike Rimmer, Ms Marie Brennan, Kevin Cruddas, Jon Kendall, Liz Rodda, Matt Brown, Alan Cryer, John Khan, Afzal Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Cummins, Judith Kinnock, Stephen Saville Roberts, rh Liz Bryant, Chris Daby, Janet Kyle, Peter Shah, Naz Buck, Ms Karen Davey, rh Ed Lake, Ben Shannon, Jim Burgon, Richard David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Sharma, Mr Virendra 417 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 418

Sheerman, Mr Barry Thomson, Richard Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, Jane Sheppard, Tommy Thornberry, rh Emily Duddridge, James Hunt, rh Jeremy Siddiq, Tulip Timms, rh Stephen Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Hunt, Tom Slaughter, Andy Trickett, Jon Eastwood, Mark Jack, rh Mr Alister Smith, Alyn Twigg, Derek Edwards, Ruth Javid, rh Sajid Smith, Cat Twist, Liz Ellis, rh Michael Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Smith, Jeff Vaz, rh Valerie Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkin, Sir Bernard Smith, Nick Webbe, Claudia Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenkinson, Mark Smyth, Karin West, Catherine Eustice, rh George Jenkyns, Andrea Sobel, Alex Western, Matt Evennett, rh Sir David Jenrick, rh Robert Spellar, rh John Whitehead, Dr Alan Everitt, Ben Johnson, rh Boris Starmer, rh Keir Whitford, Dr Philippa Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Dr Caroline Stephens, Chris Whitley, Mick Farris, Laura Johnson, Gareth Stevens, Jo Whittome, Nadia Fell, Simon Johnston, David Stone, Jamie Williams, Hywel Fletcher, Katherine Jones, Andrew Streeting, Wes Wilson, Munira Fletcher, Mark Jones, rh Mr David Stringer, Graham Wilson, rh Sammy Fletcher, Nick Jones, Fay Sultana, Zarah Winter, Beth Ford, Vicky Jones, Mr Marcus Tami, rh Mark Wishart, Pete Foster, Kevin Jupp, Simon Tarry, Sam Yasin, Mohammad Fox, rh Dr Liam Kawczynski, Daniel Thewliss, Alison Zeichner, Daniel Francois, rh Mr Mark Kearns, Alicia Thomas, Gareth Tellers for the Ayes: Frazer, rh Lucy Keegan, Gillian Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Jessica Morden and Freeman, George Kruger, Danny Thompson, Owen Colleen Fletcher Freer, Mike Lamont, John Fuller, Richard Largan, Robert Fysh, Mr Marcus Latham, Mrs Pauline NOES Gale, rh Sir Roger Leadsom, rh Dame Andrea Adams, Nigel Burns, rh Conor Garnier, Mark Leigh, rh Sir Edward Afolami, Bim Butler, Rob Ghani, Ms Nusrat Levy, Ian Afriyie, Adam Cairns, rh Alun Gibb, rh Nick Lewer, Andrew Aiken, Nickie Carter, Andy Gibson, Peter Lewis, rh Brandon Aldous, Peter Cartlidge, James Gideon, Jo Lewis, rh Dr Julian Allan, Lucy Cash, Sir William Glen, John Loder, Chris Amess, Sir David Cates, Miriam Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Logan, Mark Andrew, rh Stuart Caulfield, Maria Gove, rh Michael Longhi, Marco Ansell, Caroline Chalk, Alex Graham, Richard Lopez, Julia Argar, Edward Chishti, Rehman Grant, Mrs Helen Lopresti, Jack Atherton, Sarah Chope, Sir Christopher Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Atkins, Victoria Churchill, Jo Green, Chris Loughton, Tim Bacon, Gareth Clark, rh Greg Green, rh Damian Mackinlay, Craig Bacon, Mr Richard Clarke, Mr Simon Griffith, Andrew Mackrory, Cherilyn Badenoch, Kemi Clarke, Theo Griffiths, Kate Maclean, Rachel Bailey, Shaun Clarke-Smith, Brendan Grundy, James Mak, Alan Baillie, Siobhan Clarkson, Chris Gullis, Jonathan Malthouse, Kit Baker, Duncan Cleverly, rh James Halfon, rh Robert Mangnall, Anthony Baker, Mr Steve Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hall, Luke Mann, Scott Baldwin, Harriett Colburn, Elliot Hammond, Stephen Marson, Julie Barclay, rh Steve Collins, Damian Hancock, rh Matt May, rh Mrs Theresa Baynes, Simon Costa, Alberto Hands, rh Greg Mayhew, Jerome Bell, Aaron Courts, Robert Harper, rh Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Benton, Scott Coutinho, Claire Harris, Rebecca McCartney, Jason Beresford, Sir Paul Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Harrison, Trudy McCartney, Karl Berry, rh Jake Crabb, rh Stephen Hart, Sally-Ann McVey, rh Esther Bhatti, Saqib Crosbie, Virginia Hart, rh Simon Menzies, Mark Blackman, Bob Crouch, Tracey Hayes, rh Sir John Merriman, Huw Blunt, Crispin Daly, James Heald, rh Sir Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Bone, Mr Peter Davies, David T. C. Heappey, James Millar, Robin Bowie, Andrew Davies, Gareth Heaton-Harris, Chris Miller, rh Mrs Maria Bradley, Ben Davies, Dr James Henderson, Gordon Milling, rh Amanda Bradley, rh Karen Davies, Mims Henry, Darren Mills, Nigel Brady, Sir Graham Davies, Philip Higginbotham, Antony Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Braverman, rh Suella Davison, Dehenna Hinds, rh Damian Mohindra, Mr Gagan Brereton, Jack Dinenage, Caroline Hoare, Simon Moore, Damien Brine, Steve Dines, Miss Sarah Holden, Mr Richard Moore, Robbie Bristow, Paul Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollinrake, Kevin Mordaunt, rh Penny Britcliffe, Sara Docherty, Leo Hollobone, Mr Philip Morris, David Brokenshire, rh James Donelan, Michelle Holmes, Paul Morris, James Browne, Anthony Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, John Morrissey, Joy Bruce, Fiona Double, Steve Howell, Paul Mortimer, Jill Buchan, Felicity Dowden, rh Oliver Huddleston, Nigel Morton, Wendy Buckland, rh Robert Doyle-Price, Jackie Hudson, Dr Neil Mullan, Dr Kieran Burghart, Alex Drax, Richard Hughes, Eddie Mumby-Croft, Holly 419 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 420

Mundell, rh David Spencer, rh Mark Bhatti, Saqib Fell, Simon Murray, Mrs Sheryll Stafford, Alexander Blackman, Bob Fletcher, Katherine Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew Blunt, Crispin Fletcher, Mark Neill, Sir Robert Stevenson, Jane Bowie, Andrew Fletcher, Nick Nici, Lia Stewart, rh Bob Bradley, Ben Ford, Vicky Nokes, rh Caroline Stewart, Iain Bradley, rh Karen Foster, Kevin Norman, rh Jesse Streeter, Sir Gary Brady, Sir Graham Fox, rh Dr Liam O’Brien, Neil Stride, rh Mel Braverman, rh Suella Francois, rh Mr Mark Opperman, Guy Stuart, Graham Brereton, Jack Frazer, rh Lucy Parish, Neil Sunak, rh Rishi Brine, Steve Freeman, George Patel, rh Priti Sunderland, James Bristow, Paul Freer, Mike Paterson, rh Mr Owen Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Britcliffe, Sara Fuller, Richard Pawsey, Mark Syms, Sir Robert Brokenshire, rh James Garnier, Mark Penning, rh Sir Mike Thomas, Derek Browne, Anthony Ghani, Ms Nusrat Penrose, John Timpson, Edward Bruce, Fiona Gibb, rh Nick Philp, Chris Tolhurst, Kelly Buchan, Felicity Gibson, Peter Pincher, rh Christopher Tomlinson, Justin Buckland, rh Robert Gideon, Jo Poulter, Dr Dan Tomlinson, Michael Burghart, Alex Glen, John Pow, Rebecca Tracey, Craig Burns, rh Conor Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Prentis, Victoria Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie Butler, Rob Gove, rh Michael Pursglove, Tom Trott, Laura Cairns, rh Alun Graham, Richard Quin, Jeremy Truss, rh Elizabeth Carter, Andy Grant, Mrs Helen Quince, Will Vara, Shailesh Cartlidge, James Gray, James Raab, rh Dominic Vickers, Martin Cates, Miriam Grayling, rh Chris Randall, Tom Vickers, Matt Caulfield, Maria Green, Chris Redwood, rh John Villiers, rh Theresa Chalk, Alex Green, rh Damian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Wakeford, Christian Chishti, Rehman Griffith, Andrew Richards, Nicola Walker, Mr Robin Churchill, Jo Griffiths, Kate Richardson, Angela Wallace, rh Mr Ben Clark, rh Greg Grundy, James Robertson, Mr Laurence Wallis, Dr Jamie Clarke, Mr Simon Gullis, Jonathan Robinson, Mary Warburton, David Clarke, Theo Halfon, rh Robert Rosindell, Andrew Warman, Matt Clarke-Smith, Brendan Hall, Luke Ross, Douglas Watling, Giles Clarkson, Chris Hammond, Stephen Rowley, Lee Webb, Suzanne Cleverly, rh James Hancock, rh Matt Russell, Dean Whately, Helen Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Hands, rh Greg Sambrook, Gary Wheeler, Mrs Heather Colburn, Elliot Harper, rh Mr Mark Saxby, Selaine Whittaker, Craig Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca Scully, Paul Whittingdale, rh Mr John Costa, Alberto Harrison, Trudy Seely, Bob Wiggin, Bill Courts, Robert Hart, Sally-Ann Selous, Andrew Wild, James Coutinho, Claire Hart, rh Simon Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Craig Cox, rh Sir Geoffrey Hayes, rh Sir John Sharma, rh Alok Williamson, rh Gavin Crabb, rh Stephen Heald, rh Sir Oliver Shelbrooke, rh Alec Wood, Mike Crosbie, Virginia Heappey, James Simmonds, David Wragg, Mr William Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Skidmore, rh Chris Wright, rh Jeremy Daly, James Henderson, Gordon Smith, Chloe Davies, David T. C. Henry, Darren Young, Jacob Smith, Greg Davies, Gareth Higginbotham, Antony Zahawi, Nadhim Smith, rh Julian Davies, Dr James Hinds, rh Damian Smith, Royston Tellers for the Noes: Davies, Mims Hoare, Simon Solloway, Amanda Maggie Throup and Dinenage, Caroline Holden, Mr Richard Spencer, Dr Ben David Rutley Dines, Miss Sarah Hollinrake, Kevin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollobone, Mr Philip Question accordingly negatived. Docherty, Leo Holmes, Paul Donelan, Michelle Howell, John Main Question put. Dorries, Ms Nadine Howell, Paul The House divided: Ayes 319, Noes 248. Double, Steve Huddleston, Nigel Dowden, rh Oliver Hughes, Eddie Division No. 63] [7.14 pm Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, Jane Drummond, Mrs Flick Hunt, rh Jeremy AYES Duddridge, James Hunt, Tom Adams, Nigel Bacon, Gareth Duguid, David Jack, rh Mr Alister Afolami, Bim Bacon, Mr Richard Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Javid, rh Sajid Afriyie, Adam Badenoch, Kemi Eastwood, Mark Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Aiken, Nickie Bailey, Shaun Edwards, Ruth Jenkin, Sir Bernard Aldous, Peter Baillie, Siobhan Ellis, rh Michael Jenkinson, Mark Allan, Lucy Baker, Duncan Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jenkyns, Andrea Amess, Sir David Baldwin, Harriett Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jenrick, rh Robert Andrew, rh Stuart Barclay, rh Steve Eustice, rh George Johnson, rh Boris Ansell, Caroline Baynes, Simon Evennett, rh Sir David Johnson, Dr Caroline Argar, Edward Bell, Aaron Everitt, Ben Johnson, Gareth Atherton, Sarah Benton, Scott Fabricant, Michael Johnston, David Atkins, Victoria Beresford, Sir Paul Farris, Laura Jones, Andrew 421 Health and Social Care Levy8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Health and Social Care Levy 422

Jones, rh Mr David Pow, Rebecca Williamson, rh Gavin Zahawi, Nadhim Jones, Fay Prentis, Victoria Wood, Mike Jones, Mr Marcus Pursglove, Tom Wragg, Mr William Tellers for the Ayes: Jupp, Simon Quin, Jeremy Wright, rh Jeremy Maggie Throup and Kawczynski, Daniel Quince, Will Young, Jacob David Rutley Kearns, Alicia Raab, rh Dominic Keegan, Gillian Randall, Tom NOES Kruger, Danny Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Lamont, John Richards, Nicola Abbott, rh Ms Diane Doogan, Dave Largan, Robert Richardson, Angela Abrahams, Debbie Dorans, Allan Latham, Mrs Pauline Robertson, Mr Laurence Ali, Rushanara Doughty, Stephen Leadsom, rh Dame Andrea Robinson, Mary Ali, Tahir Dromey, Jack Leigh, rh Sir Edward Ross, Douglas Allin-Khan, Dr Rosena Duffield, Rosie Levy, Ian Rowley, Lee Amesbury, Mike Eagle, Dame Angela Lewer, Andrew Russell, Dean Anderson, Fleur Eagle, Maria Lewis, rh Brandon Sambrook, Gary Antoniazzi, Tonia Eastwood, Colum Lewis, rh Dr Julian Saxby, Selaine Ashworth, rh Jonathan Edwards, Jonathan Loder, Chris Scully, Paul Bardell, Hannah Efford, Clive Logan, Mark Seely, Bob Beckett, rh Margaret Elliott, Julie Longhi, Marco Selous, Andrew Begum, Apsana Elmore, Chris Lopez, Julia Shapps, rh Grant Benn, rh Hilary Esterson, Bill Lopresti, Jack Sharma, rh Alok Betts, Mr Clive Evans, Chris Lord, Mr Jonathan Shelbrooke, rh Alec Black, Mhairi Farry, Stephen Mackrory, Cherilyn Simmonds, David Blackford, rh Ian Fellows, Marion Maclean, Rachel Skidmore, rh Chris Blackman, Kirsty Flynn, Stephen Mak, Alan Smith, Chloe Blake, Olivia Fovargue, Yvonne Malthouse, Kit Smith, Greg Blomfield, Paul Foxcroft, Vicky Mangnall, Anthony Smith, rh Julian Bonnar, Steven Foy, Mary Kelly Mann, Scott Smith, Royston Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gardiner, Barry Marson, Julie Solloway, Amanda Brennan, Kevin Gibson, Patricia May, rh Mrs Theresa Spencer, Dr Ben Brown, Alan Gill, Preet Kaur Mayhew, Jerome Spencer, rh Mark Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Girvan, Paul Maynard, Paul Stafford, Alexander Bryant, Chris Glindon, Mary McCartney, Jason Stephenson, Andrew Buck, Ms Karen Grady, Patrick McCartney, Karl Stevenson, Jane Burgon, Richard Grant, Peter Menzies, Mark Stewart, rh Bob Butler, Dawn Green, Kate Merriman, Huw Stewart, Iain Byrne, Ian Green, Sarah Metcalfe, Stephen Streeter, Sir Gary Byrne, rh Liam Greenwood, Lilian Millar, Robin Stride, rh Mel Cadbury, Ruth Greenwood, Margaret Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stuart, Graham Cameron, Dr Lisa Griffith, Nia Milling, rh Amanda Sunak, rh Rishi Campbell, rh Sir Alan Gwynne, Andrew Mills, Nigel Sunderland, James Carden, Dan Haigh, Louise Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hamilton, Fabian Mohindra, Mr Gagan Syms, Sir Robert Chamberlain, Wendy Hanna, Claire Moore, Damien Thomas, Derek Champion, Sarah Hanvey, Neale Moore, Robbie Timpson, Edward Chapman, Douglas Hardy, Emma Mordaunt, rh Penny Tolhurst, Kelly Charalambous, Bambos Harris, Carolyn Morris, David Tomlinson, Justin Cherry, Joanna Hayes, Helen Morris, James Tomlinson, Michael Chope, Sir Christopher Hendrick, Sir Mark Morrissey, Joy Tracey, Craig Clark, Feryal (Proxy vote cast Hendry, Drew Mortimer, Jill Trevelyan, rh Anne-Marie by Chris Elmore) Hillier, Dame Meg Morton, Wendy Trott, Laura Cooper, Daisy Hobhouse, Wera Mullan, Dr Kieran Truss, rh Elizabeth Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Mumby-Croft, Holly Vara, Shailesh Corbyn, rh Jeremy Hollern, Kate Mundell, rh David Vickers, Martin Cowan, Ronnie Hopkins, Rachel Murray, Mrs Sheryll Vickers, Matt Coyle, Neil Hosie, rh Stewart Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Villiers, rh Theresa Crawley, Angela Howarth, rh Sir George Neill, Sir Robert Wakeford, Christian Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Hudson, Dr Neil Nici, Lia Walker, Mr Robin cast by Chris Elmore) Huq, Dr Rupa Nokes, rh Caroline Wallace, rh Mr Ben Cruddas, Jon Hussain, Imran Norman, rh Jesse Wallis, Dr Jamie Cryer, John Jardine, Christine O’Brien, Neil Warburton, David Cummins, Judith Jarvis, Dan Opperman, Guy Warman, Matt Daby, Janet Johnson, Kim Parish, Neil Watling, Giles Davey, rh Ed Jones, Darren Patel, rh Priti Webb, Suzanne David, Wayne Jones, Gerald Paterson, rh Mr Owen Whately, Helen Davies, Geraint Jones, rh Mr Kevan Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Mrs Heather Davies, Philip Jones, Ruth Penning, rh Sir Mike Whittaker, Craig Davies-Jones, Alex Jones, Sarah Penrose, John Whittingdale, rh Mr John De Cordova, Marsha Kane, Mike Philp, Chris Wiggin, Bill Debbonaire, Thangam Kendall, Liz Pincher, rh Christopher Wild, James Docherty-Hughes, Martin Khan, Afzal Poulter, Dr Dan Williams, Craig Dodds, Anneliese Kinnock, Stephen 423 Health and Social Care Levy 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 424

Kyle, Peter Pollard, Luke Winter, Beth Tellers for the Noes: Lake, Ben Qaisar-Javed, Anum Wishart, Pete Jessica Morden and Lammy, rh Mr David Qureshi, Yasmin Yasin, Mohammad Colleen Fletcher Lavery, Ian Rayner, rh Angela Zeichner, Daniel Law, Chris Redwood, rh John Leadbeater, Kim Reed, Steve Question accordingly agreed to. Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Rees, Christina Lewis, Clive Reeves, Ellie Resolved, Linden, David Reeves, Rachel That provision may be made for, and in connection with, the Lockhart, Carla Reynolds, Jonathan following— Long Bailey, Rebecca Ribeiro-Addy, Bell (a) the imposition of a tax on earnings and profits in respect of Lucas, Caroline Rimmer, Ms Marie which national insurance contributions are payable, or would be Lynch, Holly Rodda, Matt payable if no restriction by reference to pensionable age were MacAskill, Kenny Russell-Moyle, Lloyd applicable, the proceeds of which are to be paid (together with Madders, Justin Saville Roberts, rh Liz any associated penalties or interest) to the Secretary of State Mahmood, Mr Khalid Shah, Naz towards the cost of health and social care but where expenses Mahmood, Shabana Shannon, Jim incurred in collecting the tax are to be deducted and paid instead Malhotra, Seema Sharma, Mr Virendra into the Consolidated Fund, and Maskell, Rachael Sheerman, Mr Barry (b) increasing the rates of national insurance contributions for McCabe, Steve Sheppard, Tommy a temporary period ending when the tax becomes chargeable and McCarthy, Kerry Siddiq, Tulip applying the increases towards the cost of the National Health McDonagh, Siobhain Slaughter, Andy Service. McDonald, Stewart Malcolm Smith, Alyn Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing McDonald, Stuart C. Smith, Cat Resolution; McDonnell, rh John Smith, Jeff That the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Prime McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Nick Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary McGinn, Conor Smyth, Karin Sajid Javid, Steve Barclay, Jesse Norman, John Glen McGovern, Alison Sobel, Alex and Kemi Badenoch bring in the Bill. McKinnell, Catherine Spellar, rh John McLaughlin, Anne Starmer, rh Keir HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE LEVY BILL McMahon, Jim Stephens, Chris McMorrin, Anna Stevens, Jo Presentation and First Reading McVey, rh Esther Stone, Jamie Jesse Norman accordingly presented a Bill to make Mearns, Ian Streeting, Wes provision imposing a tax (to be known as the health and Miliband, rh Edward Stringer, Graham social care levy), the proceeds of which are payable to Mishra, Navendu Sultana, Zarah the Secretary of State towards the cost of health care Monaghan, Carol Tami, rh Mark and social care, on amounts in respect of which national Moran, Layla Tarry, Sam insurance contributions are, or would be if no restriction Morgan, Stephen Thewliss, Alison by reference to pensionable age were applicable, payable; Murray, Ian Thomas, Gareth and for connected purposes. Murray, James Thomas-Symonds, rh Nick Nandy, Lisa Thompson, Owen Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time Newlands, Gavin Thomson, Richard tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 160) with explanatory Nicolson, John Thornberry, rh Emily notes (Bill 160-EN). Norris, Alex Timms, rh Stephen O’Hara, Brendan Trickett, Jon Business without Debate Olney, Sarah Twigg, Derek Onwurah, Chi Twist, Liz DELEGATED LEGISLATION Oppong-Asare, Abena Vaz, rh Valerie Osborne, Kate Webbe, Claudia Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Oswald, Kirsten West, Catherine Order No. 118(6)), Owatemi, Taiwo Western, Matt Owen, Sarah Whitehead, Dr Alan PENSIONS Paisley, Ian Whitford, Dr Philippa That the draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Administration, Peacock, Stephanie Whitley, Mick Investment, Charges and Governance) (Amendment) Regulations Pennycook, Matthew Whittome, Nadia 2021, which were laid before this House on 21 June, be approved.— Perkins, Mr Toby Williams, Hywel (Scott Mann.) Phillips, Jess Wilson, Munira Question agreed to. Phillipson, Bridget Wilson, rh Sammy 425 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Cambridgeshire and Peterborough 426 Independent Commission on Climate Cambridgeshire and Peterborough authority and local councils as well as many companies Independent Commission on Climate and voluntary organisations are doing to protect all of this is crucial. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Led skilfully by Baroness Brown, the Cambridgeshire do now adjourn.—(Scott Mann.) and Peterborough Independent Commission on Climate published an initial report in March 2021, with a series of 31 recommendations for local and central Government. 7.29 pm The recommendations were grouped into four key themes, Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): It is a pleasure covering transport, buildings, energy, and peat. The to have the opportunity to bring to the House a subject commission will publish a second report, which I am that affects every one of us. On the back of a particularly told is due next month, covering other important themes scorching few days and a summer where we have seen such as waste, water, business and industry. As trade unprecedented weather events in mainland Europe as unions have rightly argued, the requirements for a just well as across the wider world, no one is any more in transition are critical—there must be social justice alongside any doubt that we have a problem. Most acknowledge environmental justice—as is the role of nature in helping that our actions as human beings on this planet have us to adapt and mitigate the impacts of climate change. played a significant part and that we have a very direct Their conclusions on these issues will be important in interest in addressing those behaviours if we are to guiding actions from a range of local organisations, but survive in future. will also need support from Government, and I shall With United Nations summits on both the climate return to that point. and nature emergencies in the next few months, it is That first report highlighted the scale of the challenge. particularly timely to be looking at what we can all do The region is particularly vulnerable to the impacts of in our own areas. My purpose in bringing this debate climate change, with low-lying topography, some of the tonight is to highlight what I consider to be the excellent UK’s highest quality farmland, but it is farmland that work being done in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough has been worked hard over many years, complex systems and to press the Government to listen both to the of water management, and flood and very real drought recommendations and the requests that flow from them. risks. Worryingly, emissions in the Cambridgeshire and I am sure the Minister is in listening mode. This is no Peterborough area are 25% higher per person than the partisan intervention; we all need to be working together UK average, so there is much to be done. on these issues. It is what the public wants and expects, It is easy to be dismayed by the scale of the challenge, and while there are differences in view and legitimate but it is also important to recognise work already in differences in how some of these goals will be achieved, place. It will not surprise the Minister if I reference it is striking that almost all political persuasions are work being done by local councils, including the excellent contributing locally. From the school climate protests, Cambridge City Council. While Councils provide initially on Fridays a couple of years ago, which were leadership, it is the wide range of organisations, businesses fantastically well-supported in Cambridge and quite and individuals working together that will make the inspiring, through to the explosion of interest triggered difference. I was proud, but not surprised, to read that by the Extinction Rebellion-led protests, awareness has the commission’s survey of local residents showed a risen substantially,and the political parties have responded, strong appetite for climate action. Many have signed up and rightly so. to a Cambridge climate change charter, developed by The first directly elected mayor of Cambridgeshire the admirable Cambridge Carbon Footprint, as we all and Peterborough, James Palmer,was an often controversial work to make Cambridge net zero by 2030. figure, and I do not think that he would mind me saying Let me return to the recommendations of the report, that he was not too unhappy about having that reputation. which are extensive. For example, on transport, the Between us, we had perhaps predictable areas of commission recommends that all new residential and disagreement, but on establishing the Cambridgeshire non-residential developments in Cambridgeshire and and Peterborough Independent Commission on Climate, Peterborough with parking provision be fitted with he made an important and bold move. Persuading charging points for electric vehicles, and that buses and Baroness Brown, renowned for her national work with taxis should be net zero by 2030. That is quite a short the Climate Change Committee, to chair it gave added sentence, which, in itself, is a major and costly task. I do gravitas to a highly impressive panel charged with the not underestimate what we are asking, particularly of work. Its first report earlier this year came shortly taxi and private hire drivers, who have been hit hard by before Mayor Palmer was replaced by my friend, Dr Nik the pandemic. Johnson, the new mayor of Cambridgeshire and I find it baffling that we have still been allowing Peterborough, and I am delighted that Dr Nik has homes to be built—we have plenty of these in and picked up the recommendations with enthusiasm. around Cambridge—without electric charging points. I We are fortunate in Cambridge and Cambridgeshire recall being shown around some of those new developments to live in a truly beautiful region of the UK, with by developers last year and making that very point. We fenland, nature reserves, peatland restoration projects, have known for years that electric charging points are and more, but as the impacts of climate change become needed. I find it staggering that the oh-so-profitable more apparent, it is clear that we must act to protect housing development sector needs to be made to do those things that make Cambridgeshire and Peterborough these things. so special. Our environmental assets not only enrich The market does not deliver. It needs regulation and our lives and, we hope, the lives of future generations, intervention. It needs intervention in the electricity but provide habitats for wildlife, clean air, and the basis distribution system. It is too hard to get these systems of our local food supply. The work that the combined connected at a cost-effective price, so will the Government 427 Cambridgeshire and Peterborough 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Cambridgeshire and Peterborough 428 Independent Commission on Climate Independent Commission on Climate [Daniel Zeichner] which we were not able to do before. That is why I am so pleased that the Greater Cambridge Partnership is putting review arrangements for network access and connection the infrastructure in place to be able to makes this a charges to allow rapid take-up and delivery of local reality, because, as I suspect you know too, Madam decarbonisation projects? Lack of capacity is now a real Deputy Speaker, people will only use the bus if the bus constraint, so will the Government support operators is reliable and on time, and that means prioritisation. to invest more in the distribution network to head off This investment will also support the commission’s future capacity constraints? recommendation that all buses become low carbon, and The commission recommends that the combined is part of an ambitious combined authority vision to authority decarbonises housing by adopting a net zero transform the public transport offer, and connect the standard for new homes, and improving funding and too many parts of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough incentives for home retrofitting. It also advises that new that suffer significant deprivation. properties have better drainage systems and flood There is so much more to be said on each of these defences—again, short sentences, but big challenges, issues. As I have already alluded to, on farming and and I am just summarising. peat soils the combined authority is supporting a The commission recommends that the combined partnership that is drawing together local farmers and authority creates a local energy plan, considering options academics to understand and develop effective changes. for hydrogen production with Government support. I This has stimulated private sector investment in a urge the Minister to look at the recommendations for collaborative approach and will provide local input to the spending review from the all-party parliamentary the Government’s lowland peat taskforce. The combined group for the east of England, which I co-chair with the authority also has a target of doubling the amount of hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), because rich wildlife areas and green space across the area, in there is a real opportunity here for the east as a key line with the Commission’s recommendation—another driver of the wider UK economy. subject worthy of a debate in itself. On peatlands, the commission recommends investing I said that I would highlight the work that Cambridge in climate change mitigation and biodiversity enhancement City Council is doing in response to the commission’s schemes for the fens. That in itself is worthy of a debate report. I pay particular tribute to some of the lead in its own right, with great work being done by a range executive councillors involved—the leader,Lewis Herbert, of partners on the fen restoration projects through Fens with Rosy Moore, Katie Thornburrow and Alex Collis. for the Future. It is very welcome that Cambridge has been awarded a silver sustainable food award and continues to reduce Now, commissioning a report is one thing; taking on food waste through eight new food hubs. It was a board the recommendations is quite another. I think we delight to visit Cambridge’s community farm, Cambridge are all familiar with excellent reports containing CoFarm, recently to see people working together to recommendations that languish on the shelf for years. provide food for these hubs. The council has also recently We do not have time for that. This is a serious piece of secured £1.7 million from the Government to install work. I was delighted to hear that the combined authority heat pumps and solar panels at local swimming pools—a has committed to act on all of the commission’s measure that will reduce emissions from the council’s recommendations. biggest source of energy.On top of this, in 2018 Cambridge As well as committing to reducing its operations to City Council was the first council to require all new net zero by the end of 2030, Dr Nik has appointed licensed taxis to be low emission vehicles. So we are Councillor Bridget Smith, leader of South Cambridgeshire making some progress, but I strongly believe that the District Council, to a lead role championing climate Government need to do much more to equip our local and the environment. A report commissioned by a leaders with the tools to tackle the climate and nature Conservative, implemented by a Labour Mayor, working emergencies. Weurgently need better funding for greening with a Liberal Democrat council leader—it can be our public transport system and investing in retrofitting, done. and more new green homes such as the Passivhaus council homes scheme announced for Cambridge just a The combined authority is undertaking a review of few weeks ago by executive councillor Mike Todd-Jones. its local transport plan in the context of the commission’s recommendation, with a focus on active travel and low Looking briefly beyond Cambridgeshire and carbon solutions, and is bringing forward proposals to Peterborough, I am grateful to the House of Commons reform bus services. As a former shadow Transport Library for drawing my attention to the recently published Minister and lifelong bus enthusiast, I can say that this report by the Association of Directors of Environment, is another sentence worthy of a whole debate in itself. Economy, Planning and Transport entitled “Recognising The reimagining of our bus system will be central to a local authorities as key partners in the Net Zero Strategy”. more sustainable future. I am pleased that the authority In this report, it says very clearly: has recently been successful in advancing to the next “Empowering local authorities is not a ‘nice to have’, it is stage of bidding under the Government’s zero-emission essential to delivering long-term, sustainable emissions reductions buses competition, which would kick-start the for local places.” transformation of the local bus fleet serving the Cambridge I wholeheartedly agree. area. Manylocal authorities across the country are undertaking However, I cannot help noting that the achievement pioneering and innovative work to address the climate of a 10-minute frequency for buses in Cambridge will crisis. The Local Government Association estimates only take us back to the situation when the last Labour that 230 councils have declared a climate emergency, Government supported buses more generously. The real and Climate Emergency UK believes that 81% of councils challenge will be to get that frequency to work reliably, have a climate plan. Whether it is Telford and Wrekin’s 429 Cambridgeshire and Peterborough 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Cambridgeshire and Peterborough 430 Independent Commission on Climate Independent Commission on Climate Labour council building a publicly owned solar farm have a clear and urgent climate and biodiversity challenge. that powers over 800 homes or Mayor Sadiq Khan’s We can only have a chance of making progress if we ambitious climate plan for London, local authorities have the consent of the majority of the people, and I across the UK are doing their bit, and so it is time for think we have that. That is why it is so important that the Government to do their bit. Polly Billington of the whatever our differences, mainstream politicians can UK100 network of local authority leaders across the work together on this key challenge. Local politicians country committed to tackling climate change has said are up for it. The question is: are the Government that local authority leaders hold the key to net zero, but prepared to play their role? “two key hurdles remain”. She argues that one of these hurdles is that the Government simply do not have a plan for reaching net zero, saying: 7.45 pm “The reality…is that the UK’s current rules do not enable local … The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth authorities to do what they need to get to Net Zero locally Put (Anne-Marie Trevelyan): I begin by congratulating my simply, the UK government won’t be able to achieve what they want to do unless they work with local authorities and change the friend, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) rules”. on securing this important debate this evening. I take a moment, if I may, to recognise the excellent work done Frankly, on all these issues, the Government have by Baroness Brown and the commission in producing been too slow. I have been closely involved in the the report of the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough passage of the Environment Bill, which has been repeatedly Independent Commission on Climate Change. The report delayed and is still making its way slowly through is testament to the drive and ambition that local areas Parliament—too slowly. The initiative we ought to be have in supporting the country’s transition to a cleaner, seeing from the Government simply is not there. For greener future, and I know that across the UK, our example, on housing retrofitting, the stop-start nature local areas have already made great strides towards this of Government programmes means that the market is future, including Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, unable to retain talent and skill. I ask the Minister: will which are demonstrating that in spades. the Government commit to funding retrofitting incentive schemes in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough over a This Government recognise the important role that longer multi-annual period, and will they devolve more local areas play in helping drive progress towards our control of such schemes to suit the characteristics of national climate change commitments. As you are now the area? I fear I know the answer. I suspect that we will aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, the report makes a run into the usual problem: which Department is number of recommendations to the Cambridgeshire responsible? This debate has shifted from one Department and Peterborough Combined Authority and to central to another—a problem in itself. Government. While sadly I do not have the time to address each recommendation in turn, I commend these I have another ask. Local authorities in the Cambridge first four areas, which in and of themselves demonstrate area have planning policies in place to encourage high the enormous challenges we face as a country. We will standards for energy efficiency and water usage in new have a close look at the peat area, which is of particular development, and are seeking to go further in their note to me as I have a large area of peat in my constituency, emerging plans.Lack of water supply and the environmental too. It is something that we need to work on in a impact of water abstraction is a key concern of residents considered way to make good progress. in the Cambridge area. Our chalk streams are a real worry. The Government’s heat and building strategy is The recent National Audit Office report “Local expected soon. Will the Government support government and net zero in England”identifies £1.2 billion Cambridgeshire councils as they seek to adopt higher in grant funding available this financial year for local standards to respond to the specific climate issues in the authorities to act on climate change and notes that that area? Will the future home standards be implemented? is a sixteenfold increase on the previous year. In addition Otherwise every home built now without low-carbon to this grant funding, the local energy programme of measures becomes a much more expensive future retrofit the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial cost. Of course, inevitably there is the issue of resources, Strategy is providing direct support to local enterprise and ADEPT and many others have also called on the partnerships, local authorities and communities in England Government to step up investment and support for to play a leading role in decarbonisation and clean local authorities. Again, I suspect I know the answer. growth. The programme was announced in 2017 as part of the clean growth strategy. Sadly, a lack of data from the Government has also proved a barrier to local authorities. A substantial area Almost £22 million has been invested to date via the of UK lowland peatlands is found in Cambridgeshire programme, including £13 million in funding for five and Peterborough, yet their emissions are not currently local energy hubs across England, including one in the recorded in the UK emissions inventory. This is a clear greater south-east region that provides direct support to area where the Government can support local authorities the Cambridgeshire and Peterborough area. For example, with the tools and insight they need to make effective the hub has funded several community organisations to plans. I have spoken at some length and have only been develop locally owned energy projects, including a project able to touch on some very broad points. I have tried to for three villages—Great Staughton, Perry and highlight how people across the political spectrum have Grafham—to transition to renewable heat through a been working together, although of course not everyone ground or water source heat pump. is always so keen. There have been complaints from Last week, the hub worked closely with the some Conservatives on the combined authority who do Cambridgeshire and Peterborough Combined Authority not like some of the proposals, but the good news is that to host the first event of the race to zero carbon tour. the vast majority of mainstream opinion agrees that we The tour will continue across the UK in the run up 431 Cambridgeshire and Peterborough 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Cambridgeshire and Peterborough 432 Independent Commission on Climate Independent Commission on Climate [Anne-Marie Trevelyan] I thank the hon. Member once again for securing the debate. I reiterate that the Government are committed to COP26 and aims to share those local stories of to supporting local areas in the transition to net zero. decarbonisation with business, local authorities and Weunderstand that local areas are key to the Department’s communities. wider efforts both to decarbonise our country and The Government are also providing specific sectoral create a cleaner, greener future for us all as well as support to other areas, including a suite of measures to adapting to those climate impacts already with us and help local authorities to decarbonise heat and buildings invest in resilient solutions to protect both lives and through higher standards in planning and construction. livelihoods. The report will help as a guide for so many For example, the local authority delivery phase 2 scheme, of those climate-vulnerable countries that I am visiting which aims to improve the energy efficiency of low-income and working with as the champion on adaptation and households, has awarded more than £79 million to the resilience for COP26. These are issues that affect us all. energy hub to cover upgrades to homes in all 141 local From Cambridge to Kathmandu, these challenges are authorities covered in the south-east. Further details on with us now, and communities, counties and countries the immediate actions that we will take for reducing are having to get to grips with how they become more emissions from buildings, as well as our approach to the resilient while they move to clean energy. I thank all key strategic decisions needed to achieve a mass transition those who have worked so hard on the report, which to low-carbon heat across the UK, will be outlined, as will be a huge resource not only for the area but in the hon. Member said, in the heat and buildings strategy, helping others who want to find ways through this which will be published in due course. complex maze to reach a place where we can transition I hope you will agree, Madam Deputy Speaker, that so that all those whom we support live in a cleaner, some excellent work is already under way to support greener way that ensures that their families can have a local areas in reaching net zero. Further plans for the safe planet for the future. role of local authorities in meeting net zero will be Question put and agreed to. outlined in the net zero strategy, which is currently under development—the hon. Member will be pleased to hear that it is keeping me very busy—and due to be 7.50 pm published before COP26. House adjourned. 85WH 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 86WH

I would like to set out briefly some of the key Westminster Hall humanitarian challenges, before going on to talk about some of the grave violations of human rights that have Wednesday 8 September 2021 been reported. I want to focus on women and girls because, like in so many other conflicts and crises around the world, women and girls are disproportionately [GERAINT DAVIES in the Chair] impacted. We must find a way to end the heartbreaking and unimaginable horrors that some women and girls Tigray have had to endure and continue to face in the form of gender-based violence and sexual violence. [Relevant Documents: Tenth Report of the International Development Committee of Session 2019-21, The The first issue that arises in conflict is the risk of humanitarian situation in Tigray, HC 1289, and the injury or death. People fearing for their lives and those Government response, Session 2019-21, HC 554.] of their families flee areas of conflict. An estimated 2.1 million people have been displaced by the conflict. 9.30 am In Tigray,many people have fled rural areas, and thousands of displaced people are being hosted in communities in Geraint Davies (in the Chair): Good morning and large urban areas. These communities are themselves welcome. Bore da. Before we begin, I encourage Members already stressed by the effects of conflict, shortages of to wear masks when they are not speaking, in line with food and water, and a lack of access to essential services. the current Government guidance and what the House People are not always safe once they have fled. The of Commons Commission has prescribed. Please would unpredictable nature of conflict means that fighting Members also give each other and members of staff often erupts unexpectedly. People have to flee fighting space when seated and when entering and leaving the more than once. The effect on their lives and livelihoods room? Members should send speaking notes by email to is devastating, sowing the seeds of problems that will [email protected]. Similarly, officials should endure for years. communicate electronically with Ministers.Without further ado, it is my great pleasure to invite Sarah Champion to Access is another major problem. The conflict has move the motion. prevented humanitarian agencies from reaching people in need. They have been unable to access areas to deliver Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): I beg to move, vital supplies, while the lack of access has also made it That this House has considered the humanitarian situation in much more difficult to assess need. The latest situation Tigray. report from the United Nations Office for the Co-ordination As ever, it is a pleasure, Mr Davies, to serve under of Humanitarian Affairs says that no trucks have entered your chairmanship, and also to see so many Members Tigray since 20 August. Since 15 July, only 321 trucks here, which shows the significance of not just the debate with humanitarian supplies have entered the region, but what is happening in Ethiopia at the moment. providing only a fraction of the assistance needed by the 5.2 million people in need. The reality is that 100 trucks The situation in Tigray is truly horrific. This could be a day are required to meet the demand. a debate about conflict prevention, regional stability or foreign policy in the horn of Africa, but it is the It is true that there have been some improvements in dreadful humanitarian situation and the terrible conditions access, and at the time we were preparing our report it the people in Tigray are having to endure that must be looked like agreements had been secured, but the situation our focus today. That dire situation motivated the is not yet good enough to meet the needs of the people International Development Committee, which I chair, affected by the fighting. Parts of Tigray remain problematic to produce a short report. I am grateful to the Government to this day, with fighting still disrupting access routes for their response to the report, and I look forward to and belligerents on all sides failing to recognise permissions hearing more from the Minister shortly. granted to humanitarian agencies. I pay tribute to the Let us be clear: it is conflict that has driven a worsening extraordinary work the humanitarian agencies are doing humanitarian situation in Tigray. Against a backdrop in the face of terrible difficulties and huge personal of deteriorating political relationships between the regional risks. Tragically, some humanitarian workers have been Government in Tigray and the federal Government in killed. Worse, it seems that they have been deliberately Addis Ababa, the Ethiopian national defence force murdered. started security operations in Tigray in November 2020. Thousands of people in Tigray have not had the The Tigray regional security forces have fought against access they need to food and water. Over 400,000 people it, retaking the Tigrayan capital of Mekelle in June. are suffering catastrophic levels of hunger and more Local militia and unidentified troops are involved. Eritrean than 4 million—around 70% of the population—are troops are fighting in Tigray and are alleged to have experiencing high levels of food insecurity. Combatants committed human rights violations and abuses. have blocked food aid from reaching its destination, it I do not want to dwell too long on the causes and has been looted by soldiers and there are reports of the nature of the conflict, save to note two things. It is food silos being contaminated. clear that there have been abuses by all parties to the Beyond these immediate life-sustaining needs, the conflict and that all parties are using propaganda and conflict has brought about a collapse of essential services. misinformation to advance their cause. All the time, it is Communication was cut off in the early part of the the people who suffer—people whose lives were already conflict, there have been power shortages, markets have difficult; people whose livelihoods were under threat closed, the internet is down making bank transfers from climate change and the worst desert locust infestation extremely difficult, banking has been disrupted and for decades; people who were already hosting populations essential services have collapsed, but to talk simply of a displaced by previous conflicts in the region. collapse of essential services would be to hide the 87WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 88WH

[Sarah Champion] mental trauma. It may well be years before health systems are recovered to the point where women and shocking and awful truth that schools, hospitals and the girls will be able to get the support that they need. means of production have all been deliberately and It is important that the world bears witness to what is systematically targeted, vandalised and destroyed. Where happening in Tigray, and the international system must schools have not been vandalised, they have been occupied do all that it can to bring the perpetrators to justice. I either by the combatants or by displaced people seeking commend the work being done by the UN and the some kind of refuge. Ethiopian Human Rights Commission to investigate. I With markets closed and limited access for food ask the Minister to try to allow access to the African deliveries, finding adequate nutrition is a real problem. Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights. At the An estimated 45,000 children under five are suffering moment, it is suffering difficulties trying to get in and from malnutrition, while health centres are reportedly carry out its investigation. It is vital that evidence of running out of stocks. It gets worse because farmers, human rights violations and abuses allegedly committed where their farms and machinery have not been vandalised, by all parties in Tigray is secured and investigated are unable to plant crops. Only 25% to 50% of cereal properly.It is important for the victims that that happens. production will be available this year. Soldiers are reported It is important as a warning to others. to have beaten people they have seen ploughing fields, In the Select Committee’s report, we said that and harvests have been destroyed and livestock looted, “the situation in Tigray is an early test of the UK’s commitment all in a part of the world that was already severely to the principles and approach of the UK as a ‘force for good’ as stressed by changes in climate and the effect of desert set out in the Government’s Integrated Review.” locusts. There is a real prospect of famine and the It still is. We recognised the Tigray crisis as creation of yet another cycle of aid dependency, in a “a test of the FCDO’sdesire to combine ‘diplomacy and development’ part of the world that has suffered so much in the past and to establish an integrated approach to conflict and instability. and that had hoped to leave this sort of problem behind it. Failing this early test could damage the credibility of the UK’s Then we turn to the atrocities: the mass killings and new strategy.” the chilling sexual violence. We know there have been My Committee welcomes the Government’s response massacres, including the cliff-top killing of 25 to 35 civilians and their acceptance of the key points that we made near Mahbere Dego, the killing of 160 people in Bora about ending conflict and preventing it from spreading, village in southern Tigray and the massacre of 100 people ensuring that humanitarian needs are met, finding a in Aksum in November by Eritrean soldiers. We know sustainable political solution and supporting a process there have been extra-judicial killings. In March, Médecins for reconciliation. I welcome the work of Nick Dyer, sans Frontières staff witnessed young men being pulled the UK special envoy for famine prevention and off buses and killed. humanitarian affairs, and the support that the Government We know that women and girls have been raped. In have provided to humanitarian agencies working in February, a young mother was abducted and over 11 days Tigray, but let us be clear that the biggest challenge in repeatedly raped by 23 soldiers, who at the end of her UK development policy is that the cuts to overseas ordeal forced a rock and nails into her vagina. Twelve development assistance are likely remain for the remainder women, five of whom were pregnant, were raped in of this Parliament and very much longer. The tests that front of family members, including their children. We the Government have set for the return to 0.7% are, know that some women have been held captive and potentially, impossibly hard to meet. repeatedly raped by soldiers and militias. The Government’s response claims that Mark Lowcock, the UN Under-Secretary-General “HMG has been at the forefront of the international response for Humanitarian Affairs, acknowledged this after a throughout the conflict”. Reuters investigation found that women and girls as UNOCHA reckons that the current gap in funding for young as eight were being targeted. It is brutal, the situation in Tigray is $170 million. There is a very dehumanising treatment. That the perpetrators cause real risk that the Government’s wholly unnecessary cuts these terrible acts to be witnessed by family members to ODA will undermine our response. suggests they intend the effect to be terrorising, and Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I pay tribute clearly points towards the use of rape and sexual violence to my hon. Friend for securing the debate and for her as a weapon of war. comprehensive description of both the scale and the Since February, 1,228 cases of sexual and gender-based brutality of the conflict, but one issue that she has not violence have been reported, yet we know that for every referred to is the potential use of chemical weapons by rape and sexual violence case that is reported, there are the Ethiopian forces, on which I tabled a written question many more that are not. The UN Population Fund to the Minister in June. I understood from the response estimates that there might be 22,500 survivors of sexual that the Government were seeking to verify the truth of violence who will seek clinical care this year. Let me those allegations, but is my hon. Friend also concerned note at this point that the UK Government have slashed about those reports, and does she agree that they should funding to UNFPA by an astonishing 85%. I dread to be part of the issues that the Government are seeking to think of the impact this will have on women and girls in address? humanitarian crises like that in Tigray. We know a lot about what the survivors of atrocities Sarah Champion: I thank my hon. Friend for his and sexual violence need to recover. Sadly, we also intervention. He is absolutely right. The problem that know that with much of the healthcare system in Tigray we have is the verification. I saw the pictures of the in tatters, there is little prospect of the survivors getting chemical attack. I have no doubt from seeing those the support they need. The stories emerging via these pictures that that is what happened, but unless we are organisations are horrifying. Many of the survivors will able to get people on the ground to capture that data go on to suffer long-term debilitating physical and and are then able to verify it, it is incredibly difficult to 89WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 90WH encourage the Government and the international Development Committee on so ably leading this debate community to take a more robust response. That is why and on all the work that she and her Committee do. I it is so important that we, as parliamentarians, keep join her in praising hugely the humanitarian actors who raising the issue of access to gather data and to get the are in harm’s way in Tigray today. evidence to hold people to account, and keep it on our I went with Bob Geldof, who probably knows more Government’s agenda-. about the situation in this part of Africa than most I have several questions that I hope the Minister will people in Britain, to see the Foreign Secretary some be able to address. First, how will the cuts in the UK’s months ago at the start of the crisis. I was extremely ODA affect Ethiopia and in particular the humanitarian impressed that the Foreign Office and the Foreign Secretary situation in Tigray, and what does being were absolutely on top of what was happening. With so “at the forefront of the international response” much else going on, there is a danger that public attention mean for the UK’s response to the current shortfall in on what is happening in Tigray, so eloquently described funding? Secondly, what steps will the Government take by the hon. Lady, is missing. There is not enough public to put pressure on belligerents to end the fighting, and attention. I urge the media to ensure that attention will the Minister also press the UN to act on the issues increases greatly. There is a lot else going on. of rape and hunger being used as weapons of war? There is a massive deterioration in the position on the Thirdly, will he update the House on the deployment in ground. At least 7 million people need urgent assistance. Tigray of experts from the preventing sexual violence in The position was set out yesterday on the BBC website, conflict initiative,and what assessment have the Government which reported that 150 people had starved to death. made of the impact of aid cuts to programmes such as That really matters to us in Britain. In 2011, the the United Nations Population Fund on supporting development programme in Ethiopia was the biggest survivors of sexual violence in the long term? anywhere in the world. It is a big country and there have Fourthly, what steps has the Minister taken since the been huge development gains in health and education, Government’s response was issued in July to prioritise particularly among girls, and in the rights of women. Tigray, and what recent discussions has he had with aid There has been enormous progress in that respect. agencies, the UN and other actors in the region? Fifthly, Britain has huge strategic, commercial and security has the delivery of aid improved significantly since the interests there. Ethiopia, for example, is pulling troops Government published their response to our report, out of Somalia at the moment, which creates space for and what are the next steps if the delivery of aid is to be al-Shabaab to do its evil work there. There are huge further improved? Sixthly, what steps is the Minister flows of desperate people across the border in Sudan, a taking to put pressure on the Ethiopian Government fragile country where millions of people are displaced. and regional authorities to improve access and The whole thing destabilises the region. Ethiopia is communications? Seventhly, how concerned is he about being pulled apart by the conflict. Liberation movements the safety of humanitarian workers in Tigray, and what and alliances are growing in strength. At the best of can be done to better protect them? times, Ethiopia is a very fragile democracy with 110 million Finally, what is the Minister’s latest assessment of the people. A major collapse there will have far more impact conflict spreading in Ethiopia, and what impact is the than Syria, Libya or Yemen, and we need to bear that in fighting in Amhara, Oromia and other parts of Ethiopia mind. having on the work of the UK Government in Tigray? So what should we seek? First, we need to seek a Will people displaced by those conflicts depend on the cessation of fighting on all sides. Secondly, we need same pot of money as the people in Tigray? humanitarian access, which is grossly inadequate at the The last month has been dramatic and traumatic in moment. It needs to be led by the international community, equal measure, but with attention focused on Afghanistan drawing on British expertise, and by the United Nations it is easy for the crisis in Tigray to slip from our and the World Food Programme, which is doing an collective consciousness. Even without Afghanistan, Haiti enormous amount of good work there at the moment. may have pushed Tigray off the news cycle, and we hear However, its funding has been cut from £21 million last precious little day to day about what is happening in year to £9 million this year, and that needs to be put Ethiopia. The reports are there if we look for them but, right. We need to recognise that people are starving to as a real crisis, it does not get the level of attention it death in Tigray and that there is massive violence, as set should. It is clear that the violence in Ethiopia has out by the hon. Lady, so I will not repeat that. Britain spread, and the risks we identified of conflict spreading has a big strategic interest. Whether we care about further are still very real. development or not, Britain has a huge strategic interest In closing, let me just say this: we must not lose sight in this part of the world, especially in Ethiopia, where of the situation in Tigray. The level of human suffering millions and millions of taxpayers’ money have been and the risk of conflict spreading demand it. spent on the ground to massive and real effect. That is why this debate matters so much, and why the issues Geraint Davies (in the Chair): I thank the Chair of the that we are discussing are so important. International Development Committee. We have nine Geraint Davies (in the Chair): Thank you for your speakers, which, according to my mathematics, means brevity. I invite Navendu Mishra, who is a member of that they have about four and a half minutes each. I the International Development Committee, to contribute invite Andrew Mitchell to speak first. to the debate.

9.46 am 9.50 am Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): It is a Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab): Thank you, pleasure to serve under your benign sway today,Mr Davies. Mr Davies. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship. I congratulate the Chairman of the International I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham 91WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 92WH

[Navendu Mishra] International has said that could amount to a crime against humanity and has also described it as just the (Sarah Champion), my colleague on the International tip of the iceberg, given the mass killings that followed. Development Committee, for securing the debate at a The charity has also heard shocking reports of gang critical juncture for millions of Tigrayans. I also note rapes of people held in captivity,which they have described the briefings from Oxfam, Amnesty International and as sexual slavery, as well as clear examples of sexual Protection Approaches. As we have heard today, the mutilation of survivors,which is a crime under international escalating tensions in Tigray are deeply concerning and law. the international community must act urgently to put The toll on all citizens in the region has been unbearable. pressure on the Governments of Eritrea and Ethiopia Since the beginning of the conflict there have been and the Tigrayan authorities to bring an end to this widespread and systematic campaigns of destruction latest conflict, which has now lasted almost a year and and looting, including the theft of farm animals, which cost thousands of lives. has significantly affected harvesting across Tigray, The UK Government must do all they can to de-escalate compounding the famine and starvation of the population. the rising tensions, investigate the reported war crimes It is clear that the UK Government cannot delay and put pressure on all sides to allow non-governmental action any further. We must not lose sight of this crisis organisations to access the thousands of Tigrayans who and the fate of thousands of Tigrayans while the eyes of are the victims of this conflict. Their lives remain at risk the world are on Afghanistan, and we must continue to and they will continue to suffer unless urgent action is add pressure to allow organisations such as the African taken to permit vital aid to enter the region. Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights to have More than 400,000 people in Tigray are experiencing access to Tigray to investigate the situation further and famine-like conditions. To put that in context, that is carry out a thorough assessment of the impact of this more than the rest of the world combined. Furthermore, conflict. the Red Cross has estimated that almost 6 million The charity, Protection Approaches, which works to people in Tigray and the neighbouring regions of Afar tackle all forms of identity-based violence and mass and Amhara are going hungry, while an additional atrocities, has rightly stated that the UK Government 1.7 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance have a legal obligation to prevent further conflict in the as a result of the conflict. It is clear that we are witnessing region under the 1948 convention on the prevention a humanitarian crisis unfold before our eyes in Tigray. and punishment of the crime of genocide. I am a proud member of the International Development It is also a matter of national interest and, left Committee. Earlier this year we urged the UK Government unchecked, the financial and human cost will be enormous. to intervene in the crisis to bring a swift end to the Much would be in keeping with what Tigrayans have conflict and help facilitate humanitarian access. Since already called for, which is a commitment to a negotiated then, there has been a deterioration in the humanitarian end to the war. The UK should help facilitate that. situation, while the ability of non-governmental Failing to support them in that endeavour would lead to organisations and aid organisations to access the region an ongoing conflict that will cost tens of thousands has diminished. For example, Oxfam told Members of more lives. this House that aid organisations are struggling to transport the 100 trucks a day of food supplies that are required into the region. It is vital that the UK Government 9.55 am apply pressure to ensure that there is unfettered, unimpeded Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Thank you for calling access to Tigray to enable that lifesaving aid to be me, Mr Davies. I declare my interest as co-chair of the delivered to thousands of citizens. all-party parliamentary group on Eritrea. I thank the Given our historic relationship with the region, we hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) not should do all we can to help. Amnesty International has only for securing the debate today and her graphic raised concerns that attacks and mass killings have speech, but for chairing the pre-briefing, which the continued unchecked since the conflict started in November APPG on Eritrea co-hosted yesterday. 2020, with crimes against humanity taking place on We must do all that we can to fulfil our international both sides, between the Ethiopian and Eritrean obligations to prevent mass atrocities of the nature Governments and Tigrayan rebels. Worryingly, a report occurring in Tigray. Christian Solidarity Worldwide this week by The Daily Telegraph revealed that, since reports on worrying indications that atrocity crimes—war July, soldiers occupying parts of Ethiopia’s Tigray region crimes, crimes against humanity and possible genocide— have been involved in what has been described as an may have occurred and could still be under way in ethnic purge of native people, who are being thrown Tigray. In the words of a priest from the Catholic into concentration camps and massacred by the dozen. Eparchy of Adigrat, interviewed at the height of the Witnesses in the northern city of Humera, near the occupation, border with Eritrea, have claimed that soldiers from “They want to annihilate Tigray. By killing the men and boys, Amhara province have been conducting Taliban-type they are trying to destroy any future resistance…They are raping door-to-door searches for ethnic Tigrayan people, the and destroying women to ensure that they cannot raise a community result of which is that thousands of residents have been in the future. They are using rape and food as weapons of war.” forced into makeshift detention centres. By June 2021, researchers at Belgium’s University of Such scenes followed reports, which have since been Ghent had documented 10,000 deaths and 230 massacres, corroborated by the UN, of Eritrean troops systematically with many more incidents yet to be fully investigated. killing hundreds of unarmed civilians in the northern No one, anywhere, should be targeted on account of city of Aksum over a two-day period in November their religion or beliefs, yet in Tigray clergy and worshippers 2020, which saw open shooting in the streets. Amnesty have been targeted and killed in large numbers. 93WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 94WH

According to a statement in February from the employees kinds of stories and testimonies that we have already of Mekelle diocese and the administrators of 45 monasteries heard, because Ethiopia looked like a bit of a success and churches, almost every monastery and church and story several years ago. It was quite a stable country, religious school in Tigray has been bombed by drones food security was increasing, and Prime Minister Abiy or heavy weapons. was awarded the Nobel peace prize. Unfortunately, it is “Alot of clergymen, deacons, congregation members of Sunday not the first time in recent years that the Nobel Committee schools, religious students and children, especially those clergymen seems to have jumped ahead of itself slightly and given who were on religious service, were massacred like animals.” awards that, in hindsight, it maybe should have taken a The indiscriminate bombing and destruction of ancient bit more time to think about. churches, mosques and other religious institutions, and I echo the thanks of right hon. and hon. Members to the extensive looting of irreplaceable historical artefacts those who supported the Oxfam briefing yesterday, and manuscripts, appear to be part of a multifaceted which was incredibly helpful. It informed a lot of what campaign that involves cultural cleansing. Not only do we have heard today. We have heard the statistics again: those actions violate international humanitarian law it is estimated that 2 million people have been internally but, according to the Rome statute, intentionally directing displaced, with 61% facing acute food insecurity. Some attacks against religious buildings and historic monuments 600,000 are already over the threshold into famine, and can also constitute a war crime. another 2 million are on the brink of what the Oxfam In 2019, the Government published a good policy rep who spoke to us yesterday described as the risk of paper, “UK approach to preventing mass atrocities”. In catastrophic hunger. As we have heard, there are multiple, places such as Tigray now we need to see actions to complex and overlapping causes, which require multiple, match the strong words from that document, such as: overlapping interventions—the huge displacement, the “The UK supports the deployment of all appropriate tools lack of infrastructure, the destruction of roads and available to the UN in dealing with potential atrocities and bridges, which simply makes getting aid to where it is conflict such as sanctions (diplomatic, travel bans, asset freezes, needed almost impossible, and the communications arms embargoes, and commodity interdiction), and is a strong blackout, which has come up time and again in the advocate for securing accountability and justice for atrocities briefings and evidence. It is a military tactic that is committed.” completely undermining humanitarian relief, which should “Development/programmatic support aims to foster environments be delivered, over and above whatever is going on in where atrocities are less likely to take place—by addressing the terms of conflict. root causes of conflict and drivers of instability, through tackling corruption, promoting good governance, improving access to There is dreadful use of hunger as a weapon of war, security and justice, and inclusive economic development.” and we have heard stories about the deliberate destruction I hope that in his closing remarks the Minister will of crops and livestock. There are particular concerns elaborate on how those words are being applied now to around ethnic tensions and tribal loyalties, which have the UK’s approach to the conflict in Tigray and the fuelled the conflict and political division. The right hon. wider region, not least to help de-escalate tensions. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) spoke about I also note the recommendation of the Select the serious risk of regional overspill, the influence of Committee on International Development for atrocity Eritrea, and the displacement of over 60,000 refugees prevention training. In addition, the Truro review, a into Sudan already. manifesto commitment of this Government, states at I want to touch briefly on the situation in Oromia. I recommendation 7: have a very active constituent who is originally from Oromia and who is part of the Oromia Support Group, “Ensure that there are mechanisms in place to facilitate an immediate response to atrocity crimes, including genocide, through which has identified extra-judicial killings going back activities such as setting up early-warning mechanisms to identify to October 2018. Of the more than 2,000 victims,1,612 were countries at risk of atrocities, diplomacy to help de-escalate identified as being from the Oromo group. The Oromia tensions and resolve disputes, and developing support to help Support Group and its colleagues are calling for an with upstream prevention work. Recognising that the ultimate inclusive dialogue between all the factions, with a view determination of genocide must be legal not political and respecting to ending any domination of one group over another. I the UK’s long-held policy in this area, the FCO should nonetheless will send the Minister the information that I have, and I determine its policy in accordance with the legal framework and encourage him to look at it very carefully indeed. should be willing to make public statements condemning such atrocities.” There is a challenge here for the Government. How Colleagues can be assured that, as the Prime Minister’s will they live up to the standards that they have set for special envoy for freedom of religion or belief, I am themselves in being proactive about atrocity prevention? working closely—indeed, daily—with the FCDO in order to How will they use their convening powers and diplomatic ensure that we implement this and all 22 recommendations influence? If they want to be a soft power superpower, of the Truro review in full by their required completion will they start by properly supporting agencies on the date of July 2022. ground? We must support multilaterals, the United Nations and NGOs such as Save the Children, which, in very difficult circumstances, are maintaining a direct 10 am presence. What will be the impact of the aid cuts? Time Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): It is a pleasure and again in Westminster Hall, we hear practical, real-life to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and I examples of the effects of that completely unnecessary congratulate the chair of the International Development cut. It is having an impact practically, in terms of what Committee, the hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah can be delivered, and it is having a diplomatic effect as Champion), on securing the debate. It is so important well, because it undermines the UK’s stance on the to keep this issue on the table in the face of so many world stage. There is a need to work with all the other global challenges taking place today. It is so agencies and partners and to recognise the Government’s concerning, disappointing and worrying to hear the obligations under international law. 95WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 96WH

[Patrick Grady] I also ask that other donors do not turn away from Ethiopia because of the conflict. People living in war-torn One of the most sobering questions that was posed areas are often the most in need. I want us to continue yesterday was: what if this is not the worst? What if the with our aid programme. We need to target the aid and worst has yet to come? Too often we have stood by, we need to require transparency. If possible, we should when we should have learned the lessons of the past. use it as a lever to bring about peace, but we should The UK has to assess, it has to intervene, and it has to continue it. work with others and make sure that we avoid even As a very long-standing friend of Ethiopia who has further and more rapid deterioration. stood in this Chamber and the main Chamber and 10.4 am defended Ethiopia as a friend, when perhaps it was questionable to have done so, I call on all the parties Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): As the there to resolve this conflict very quickly and peacefully. chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for Ethiopia and Djibouti and somebody who has visited Ethiopia Geraint Davies (in the Chair): Thank you so much for many times,I congratulate the hon. Member for Rotherham your words. I will be calling the Front Benchers at (Sarah Champion) on securing this debate and the very 10.28 am. We are keeping good time, so without further moving way in which she described the terrible situation ado, over to you, Helen Hayes. I look forward to in Tigray. I thank her for her and her Committee’s hearing from you. continued interest in Ethiopia. I also thank the Minister for his willingness to provide briefings and attend meetings 10.9 am regularly on this subject, and for his ongoing involvement. Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I asked an urgent question on 14 June, and sadly the Thank you, Mr Davies. It is a pleasure to serve under situation, if anything, has deteriorated since, but it need your chairmanship. I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend not be this way. As has been alluded to, Ethiopia is a the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) on securing great country. It claims to have been the origin of this important debate. coffee. Lucy, one of the world’s oldest human beings— 4.4 million years—was found there.It has been independent November will mark one year since the onset of for longer than any African country. I am not quite sure violence in the Tigray region of Ethiopia. It started in of the claims about the Queen of Sheba, but I do know retaliation to an attack on the Northern Command by that Ethiopia is one of the west’s oldest Christian the Tigray People’s Liberation Front. This is a complex civilisations. That is one of the tragedies: Christian and conflict, with many different actors on the ground, but Muslim populations, sizeable as they are in Ethiopia, the reports of the conflict have consistently included have lived peacefully together. More than 80 tribes and evidence of mass executions, the targeting of Tigrayans probably as many languages have managed to co-exist by ethnicity, the destruction of crops, livestock and peacefully since the overthrow of the Derg in 1992. machinery, and the use of rape and sexual violence as a I am told that Ethiopia has enjoyed world-record weapon of war. It is estimated that tens of thousands of growth in the past 15 years; certainly, it is one of Tigrayan women and girls have been raped since this Africa’s outstanding success stories in that sense. It conflict began. really is ironic that trouble has flared since the appointment The conflict has led to a humanitarian disaster in of the outward-looking, modernising Prime Minister, Tigray,and non-governmental organisations are continuing who, as has been said, won the Nobel peace prize for to report difficulties getting into the region. The latest making peace with Eritrea after a very long-standing reports indicate that Tigray is still facing siege-like dispute, but the rumblings of discontent started before conditions, and a recent UN aid convoy was held at a he took office and have sadly increased since. checkpoint for two days, after which only nine of the Ethiopia has suffered recently because of the unusually trucks were allowed to proceed. Some 5.5 million people warm weather. The attack of locusts and, of course, are facing crisis levels of food insecurity, and 350,000 are covid have not helped. It is important to recognise that at catastrophic risk. There are sickening accounts of millions of people in Ethiopia each year depend on Tigrayans being held in prison camps near the Sudanese food aid. I am really rather struck by what World Food border, with reports from Sudan of corpses floating Programme people have said this week: up to 7 million down the Setit river, clearly identifiable as Tigrayans people are in dire need of food assistance in northern and showing signs of torture. This conflict contains the Ethiopia alone. Their food stocks in Tigray are running hallmarks of ethnic cleansing and genocide, and there perilously low, and they need $140 million to expand are reports of the use of white phosphorus, which, their northern Ethiopian response. although not classified as a chemical weapon, delivers appalling injuries. I will not go into the details of the conflict, which the hon. Lady covered ably, but I will ask a few questions. In addition to the problems with humanitarian access, As far as the Minister knows, has the conflict spread as it has been very difficult for journalists seeking to report far as Lalibela—a town I visited on my last visit to on the situation in Tigray.Some extremely brave journalists Ethiopia? It really would be tragic if it had got that far. have continued to do so, often placing themselves in Could the United Nations be doing more, beyond helping grave danger and facing an aggressive smear campaign refugees, which is a very important thing for it to be for their work. I pay particular tribute to Nima Elbagir doing? Could the African Union be doing more, especially and Lucy Kassa—brave women who have done so in speaking to the Tigray People’s Liberation Front and much to bear witness to the atrocities in Tigray. Eritrea, to make sure its troops are all withdrawn from Despite the horrors unfolding in Tigray, this conflict the country? During the urgent question, the Minister has remained under-reported and under-prioritised by said he had diverted aid to Tigray. Did that have any the international community. I secured an Adjournment effect, and if so could that practice be repeated? debate on Tigray in March, and at that time, five months 97WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 98WH into the conflict, with 10,000 women and girls at that the Ethiopian Government had subjected women and point reported to have been raped, that was the only girls to sexual violence, rape and sexual slavery. If we debate to have taken place on the issue in any western are committed to ending sexual violence against women Parliament. I have constituents with loved ones in Tigray in this country, we have to be equally committed to who are in fear for their lives, and constituents working helping women and girls in other countries. with NGOs in Ethiopia, seeking to deliver aid to Tigray. For women with family in the region, such as my The response to the conflict from the UN so far has constituent who contacted me in March, the war has been insufficiently resourced, and there is an urgent made contacting their loved ones even more difficult. need for additional capacity. In this context, it is also They are worried—petrified—for their loved ones. concerning that the Government of Ethiopia appear to Tragically, the isolation has made it so much harder for be withdrawing from the international community, with humanitarian aid to get through to the people who need reports that as many as half—about 30—of their it the most. Food has run out in many regions of Tigray. international embassies are to close. As the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield I hope that the Minister will set out today what the (Mr Mitchell) highlighted, more than 150 people died UK Government are doing to secure a stronger response of starvation last month alone—that should shame us from the UN and ensure that the attention of the as a country. There can be no mistake about the level of international community is focused on Tigray. What are human suffering being a direct result of the conflict, the Government doing to increase the mobilisation of which shows no sign of a peaceful resolution any time UK-funded aid to support UK nationals delivering soon. humanitarian assistance? What are the Government Like other right hon. and hon. Members, I too ask doing to secure a peace process to prevent this conflict the Minister what additional support the Government from escalating further, across Ethiopia and the horn of will be offering to address this serious issue and to help Africa? Will the UK Government prioritise trauma bring an end to the conflict. Will the Government use support and healthcare services for women and girls their relationship with the Ethiopian authorities to ensure who are survivors of rape and sexual violence, as a that Ethiopia’s Government protects the affected first-order priority of their humanitarian response? And communities and brings an end to human rights abuses will the Minister finally recognise the catastrophic and the gender-based violence? implications of cutting international aid at this time? The conflict in Ethiopia risks a humanitarian catastrophe 10.16 am potentially as serious as the famine of the 1980s, and Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): It is a pleasure to be there are other, equally pressing priorities across the back under your chairship, Mr Davies, and to be back world, including the 18 million people in need of in the real Westminster Hall. I congratulate my hon. humanitarian aid in Afghanistan. In the current context Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) of cuts, each time the Minister stands up and says that on securing this important and timely debate. I agree the Government are committing additional resources to with many Members that the eyes of the world are not a humanitarian emergency, it prompts the question: at on Tigray as they should be, so this is an important time the expense of which other humanitarian priority is to put on the record what is happening there right now that additional aid being delivered? This simply cannot and to hear from the Minister about our response. be justified in the face of such unfolding horror. I share the distress and sadness displayed by so many colleagues this morning about what we are still witnessing 10.14 am in Tigray. It is a truly heartbreaking situation. At the time of Live Aid, we were so proud that as a country we Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): It is a stood up together to support the people of Ethiopia in pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, their time of crisis. We want to do the same again. We and to be back in Westminster Hall—I almost got lost want to know what is happening in that region. We feel this morning. I, too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend the a great bond, as well as having constituents—as I do—who Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) for calling have family members in the region. for this important and timely debate and for her opening remarks highlighting the need to ensure that the issue The UN Secretary-General has said that stays on the agenda. With the 24-hour news cycle, it is “a humanitarian catastrophe is unfolding before our eyes”. so easy for major issues, issues of this scale, to be The Foreign Secretary took his eye off Afghanistan, but pushed down. With constant refreshing and updating, I hope to hear from the Minister that that is not the case one could almost forget what is going on, so it is with Tigray. I was heartened that the Foreign Secretary important for us in this Parliament to keep this issue on mentioned Tigray in briefings held during the recess, so the Government’s agenda and to look at what clear I am glad of this opportunity for a Minister to lay out action and response our Government will be leading to what is happening in the British Government. I also help the situation. have some questions. The situation is nothing short of a humanitarian On 4 November 2020, armed conflict broke out in crisis—the war that erupted last year and the horrific northern Ethiopia between the regional and federal human rights abuse. Just this week, there have been Governments in the country’s Tigray region. That conflict reports of thousands of men, women and children has since spilled over into the neighbouring Amhara being forced into concentration camps and of door-to-door and Afar regions. Reports indicate that clashes continue ethnic purging of the Tigrayan people. The International in northern Ethiopia, involving Ethiopian, Amharan Development Committee highlighted the gendered nature and Tigrayan forces. Hundreds of thousands of people of human rights abuses in Tigray, with sexual violence a have been displaced in Afar and Amhara, and more key feature of such abuse. Last month, a report by than 2.2 million people are now thought to be displaced Amnesty International revealed that forces aligned to in Tigray, many to neighbouring countries, as has been 99WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 100WH

[Fleur Anderson] It seems that all eyes are on Afghanistan. That is understandable and, perhaps, as it should be. However, mentioned in the debate, including Sudan. It is estimated this debate reminds us that there are people in need of that more than 6 million people across those areas are help and support throughout the world, and the war in affected by the crisis and in need of assistance. The Tigray is one such place. The hon. Member for Tewkesbury scale of the humanitarian crisis is staggering. (Mr Robertson) referred to the historical connections More than 5 million people in Tigray require immediate and relationships that the UK has with Ethiopia. We humanitarian assistance. At least 54 organisations are should be able to use those and use our influence. I hope providing aid and services. I join with other Members in the Minister can tell us what can be done. paying tribute to the brave humanitarian workers on I declare an interest as a chair of the APPG for the ground right now. However, there are significant international freedom of religion or belief. Since the gaps in assistance,which disproportionately affect Ethiopian war in Tigray began last November, over 52,000 people women and girls, who have virtually no access to livelihoods have died and an estimated 1.7 million have been displaced. and often live in insecure environments. The harvests A report on persecution.org states: are failing right now, and the harvests of November and “On March 10, 2021, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken December are likely to fail as well—there has been no testified before the US Congress about the ‘ethnic cleansing’ ability to plant—so the crisis is getting worse. Verification occurring in Ethiopia, particularly in the Tigray region. In early on the ground is needed. November, Ethiopian Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed announced military operations against the region’s ruling party, the Tigray For months, Ethiopian troops, aided by Eritrean People’s Liberation Front, which he accused of attacking a federal soldiers, have tortured, sexually assaulted, killed and army base. Despite official denial, the Eritrean military, as well as displaced Tigrayan civilians.The Tigray People’sLiberation forces from an adjoining region, Amhara, have been participating Front has also perpetrated human rights abuses and has in the offensive and committing war crimes.” looted a United States Agency for International Those crimes have been illustrated by other Members Development warehouse. The United Nations Office and I do not intend to repeat them. They are horrific to for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian affairs reported listen to and cause me great grief when I hear them. on 19 August that, while access in large areas inside The report continues: Tigray is now feasible and secure, other areas remain “According to witness reports, egregious human rights abuses, inaccessible. The extended delays in the clearance of such as rapes and mass killings, are being perpetrated by the humanitarian supplies, with lorries going in but not various actors involved in the conflict… As so often the case, coming out again to replenish their stocks, is a major Christians are often caught in the crossfire as ethnic and political issue right now. OCHA says that it is 50% short of the conflict accelerates. This year Ethiopia rose from 39th to 36th on funding needed to respond now. the Open Doors World Watch List of countries with the most When did the Foreign Secretary last speak to the persecution. This change was due an increase of violence against Christians. In addition, Christians were discriminated against in Ethiopian Government to make these points? Has the the distribution of government aid during the COVID-19 pandemic.” Prime Minister spoken to his Ethiopian counterpart? International Christian Concern reported in September What steps are the UK Government taking to ensure 2020 that 500 Christians had been killed since June the protection of civilians, including women and girls, 2020. In late November 2020, approximately 800 people from sexual and gender-based violence in particular? were killed near the St Mary of Zion church in the Will the Minister ensure that aid is prioritised for this northern Tigray region. crisis and do everything in his power to press the Ethiopian Government for an increase in funding, the The situation is dire for Christians, people of all faith cessation of fighting and unfettered humanitarian access? and those of none. The fact is, no one is really safe in The road through the Amhara region is now closed. the Tigray region. The debate highlights the need for What is happening with that? What about the resumption the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office of essential services—water and sanitation, power,banking to offer more help to address the reality of living life in and communications? Weneed to challenge the Ethiopian war-torn Tigray. Children are living in fear, with no Government on the rhetoric being used against the educational or vocational prospects, with insufficient humanitarian community, which is endangering aid food, and family units are decimated. It is so important works in the region—many of them British. The targeting to have families, yet they are dispersed, attacked and and arresting of Tigrayans in Addis Ababa must cease. violated. The eyes of the world must be on Tigray and urgent Less than 10% of the required humanitarian cargo, action must be taken. 2.2% of the necessary operational cash and 28% of fuel has been able to reach Tigray since 12 July. Only Geraint Davies (in the Chair): Last but not least from 320,000 hectares of farmland were planted out of 1.3 million the Back Benches, the indefatigable Jim Shannon. hectares available, with a maximum of 13% of typical agricultural yields expected, further exacerbating food 10.21 am insecurity. So much needs to be done. I know that we in Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to the UK can always play our part, but we need confirmation be back in the real Westminster Hall, as the hon. from the Minister that that is happening in every way. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) said, and to be Only 25% to 50% of the normal cereal production part of this debate. I thank the hon. Member for will be available this year, as the agricultural planting Rotherham (Sarah Champion) for setting the scene. We season has been missed in many parts of Tigray because have all said it and we all mean it: she is a champion on of food stock depletion. Only 131,000 people received these issues and speaks out. Whenever I see her name food assistance between 19 and 25 August; it was 547,000 down for a debate I am attracted to speak on that in the previous week. An estimated 1.7 million people matter, because I share her concerns and those expressed are facing food insecurity in the Afar and Amhara by everyone today. regions because of the spillover of the Tigray conflict. 101WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 102WH

I understand that the Minister will outline the steps I have a number of concrete questions for the Minister. the Government have taken, and I welcome those steps. As I said, I always seek to be brief. What discussions However, my question is simple: can we do more? The and what success have the UK Government had in their answer from everyone here is, “Yes, we can.”Can we offer talks with the Ethiopian and Eritrean Governments more support? Can we uplift aid? Can we use local about a ceasefire and about achieving humanitarian churches and NGOs to ensure that the aid gets through access? What emergency food aid will the UK commit to those who need it most? Minister, can those churches to, particularly as winter is approaching? So many and NGOs be used? If possible, either today or in people are at the really grave risk of starvation, and we the future, please tell us what can be done. Will we stand could see a globally significant tragedy. by and watch, or will we be able to say that we did what What assessment has the FCDO made of the risk of we could? the instability in Tigray spreading to other regions I conclude with this, Mr Davies. I implore the Foreign, within Ethiopia, but also to other countries within the Commonwealth and Development Office and the Minister wider region? This could be the focal point of a far to review the scenario and to source additional support wider crisis than even now. The UK has authorised to feed these children, help these people to plant the £65,000-worth of military exports to Ethiopia since crops and ensure that there is at least some hope of a 2018. That is not huge, but it is surely not appropriate. future for these people. That is what we all ask for today. Can the Minister assure us that there will be no further arms exports to the region? That is surely the last thing Geraint Davies (in the Chair): Over to Alyn Smith. If that the region needs. On accountability, there have you could keep your remarks to about 10 minutes, that been war crimes committed in this conflict. What discussions would be helpful. Thank you. has the UK been part of—within the UN in particular, I 10.26 am suspect—to ensure the accountability of war criminals in the region? We must hold them to account. Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP): Thank you, Mr Davies. It has always struck me that nobody ever criticised a Tigray is going to need support on many things going speech for being too short, so I always endeavour to forward, and where the UK Government make steps keep my remarks brief. It is a genuine pleasure to wind towards meaningful contributions, they will continue to up the debate and to follow so many consensual speeches. have SNP support. This issue is too important for a I also congratulate the chair of the International party political knockabout. Development Committee,the hon. Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), for bringing this very important 10.30 am issue up the agenda. We cannot lose sight of the tragedy that is unfolding. Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ The first casualty of war is truth, and that is certainly Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the case in Tigray. There has been wrongdoing on all Mr Davies. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for sides, and it is difficult to calculate what is actually Rotherham (Sarah Champion), the Chair of the happening on the ground. There have been some very International Development Committee, for securing this strong contributions to this debate. I was particularly debate and for the work she and her Committee have struck by the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member done on this matter. I also thank everyone else who has for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady), who gave us the contributed today, and particularly my hon. Friends the context: that the situation in Tigray is a reversal of the Members for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi), for Putney progress that had been made. It did not need to be like (Fleur Anderson), for Dulwich and West Norwood this. There has been good, constructive aid spent. There (Helen Hayes), for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), has been progress made. What we are now seeing is a for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) and others. I also want tragedy, in which we are genuinely witnessing sexual to thank all other Members, because what has been violence and starvation being used as weapons of war, clear today is the level of concern; the comments made while the world is watching. by the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) and the hon. Members for Tewkesbury The scale, as we have heard, is quite staggering: (Mr Robertson), for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), for Glasgow 900,000 Tigrayans are starving; 5 million are on the North (Patrick Grady) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) brink of starvation and experiencing chronic food insecurity; have all illustrated the horrific reports we are getting an estimated 15,000 cases of rape in the last seven from Tigray and the wider concerns of this House. months have been calculated by Amnesty International; and there are 2.2 million displaced persons so far, with As the SNP spokesman, the hon. Member for Stirling many more in grave danger. (Alyn Smith) said, this is not a party political issue; this This has been a very consensual debate, and I am is about concern for the people of Ethiopia and Tigray, glad to hear it, because this is not for party political and about our wider humanitarian and human rights knockabout. However, where we in the SNP do very responsibilities. That is why the Labour Front Benchers strongly diverge from the UK Government is in our and I have repeatedly raised this issue with Ministers deep sadness at the walking away from the 0.7% aid and had many discussions with the Minister, as well as commitment. We cannot do more with less. We see that with the Ethiopian Government and other parties directly. in Tigray; we see it elsewhere. The cut is a reversal of the I commend all those humanitarian and human rights UK’s good work on international development, as we agencies doing remarkable work on the ground and, as have heard, and we regret it deeply. Particularly with so has also been mentioned, the journalists reporting in many former Department for International Development very difficult circumstances, whose reporting is so crucial personnel being based in Scotland, in East Kilbride, we for us to understand what is going on in situations such feel that very personally. We would again urge the UK as this. Attempts to intimidate and threaten them have Government to reverse course on those cuts. been deeply disturbing. 103WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 104WH

[Stephen Doughty] He said he wanted to take her to the hospital in one location, but the armed forces who committed the abuses I have been absolutely horrified by the allegations of were administering it, so he had to seek support at abuse on all sides: the reports of ethnic cleansing, another location, where she did in the end receive religious persecution, attacks on women and children, medical help, but only after months of trauma. That is torture and war crimes—some of this stuff is simply utterly horrific. Women often have no way of receiving horrific. As ever in these situations it is the civilians who help for the consequences of these actions. suffer. The tragedy is that we are yet to see full human The area is also experiencing wider famine conditions, rights investigations and actions on those who have because of the impact of locusts, climate change, covid perpetrated these crimes, we have yet to see full and other diseases. The pressures of this current conflict humanitarian access and we have yet to see a sense of come on top of all those other issues, because this was humanity break through the fog and the horrors of this already an area with significant challenges. In terms of war. the wider humanitarian situation, 5.2 million out of I share the concerns expressed by many Members 6 million people living in Tigray are now in need of about this becoming a forgotten crisis—we have all humanitarian assistance and 13.6 million people are been deeply concerned about what is going on in estimated to be food insecure across Ethiopia as a result Afghanistan, but we must recognise that crises and of the conflict, as well as the wider circumstances. tragedies are happening in so many other places, whether According to OCHA, that is in Yemen, across the Sahel, in Ethiopia or the “only 25% to 50% of the normal cereal production will be disturbing events we have seen in Guinea in recent days. available this year”. We as a House and, I hope, the Government are keeping I will ask some questions about the situation facing a full awareness of all these situations and taking action people who have been internally displaced and refugees. wherever appropriate. There are now 2 million internally displaced people I want to touch on some of the comments that have according to USAID, with nearly 50,000 refugees arriving been made. My hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich in South Sudan since November 2021. There is a spill-over and West Norwood spoke very powerfully in the of internally displaced people into the Afar and Amhara Adjournment debate earlier this year about the sexual regions as well. We have heard from many Members violence we have seen, which I will come on to later. The today about the challenges of getting humanitarian shocking figure that an estimated 10,000 rapes had assistance into the region. One of the reports from happened is simply horrific. All sides have been accused OCHA said that only 10% of the 3,500 cargo trucks of war crimes and crimes against humanity.The Secretary- carrying lifesaving materials had been able to enter the General described the situation in Tigray as “hellish”, region. The USAID chief, Samantha Power, was very and that very much bears out what we have heard today. clear when she said: Thousands have already died; 4.4 million people are “This shortage is not because food is unavailable, but because now in phase 3 or above of the integrated food insecurity the…Government is obstructing humanitarian aid and personnel, phase classification, with 1.7 million facing food insecurity including land convoys and air access”. in the Afar and Amhara regions as well, and 400,000 people I am interested in the UK Government’s comments on in famine-like conditions. We all remember that tragedy her remarks. of the early 1980s and the consequences of human-made There are reports that EDF soldiers forcibly entered conflict for civilians, which led to absolutely devastating World Food Programme and UNICEF offices and famine. destroyed communications equipment belonging to those It is very important that we focus on the experiences two agencies. What does the Minister have to say about of ordinary people living in Tigray, especially women those recent events, and who does he view as responsible and girls who are facing the consequences of this conflict. for them? The Amnesty International report on sexual violence I mentioned the refugee situation, and I am particularly was particularly damning about the sadistic brutality concerned for the 24,000 Eritrean refugees. Because of being inflicted on women by people on all sides of this the previous conflict, there are many refugees in the conflict, with rape and sexual violence used systematically region already. The Mai Aini and Adi Harush camps in to torture and dehumanise women and, in some cases, the north-western zone have been cut off from assistance children; women being kept as sex slaves; women being and apparently have not been reached since mid-July. It subjected to genital mutilation—an act that is, horrifically, has been reported that both those camps have run out often conducted in front of family members to impose of food and the refugees are facing violence and intimidation further psychological damage. Of course, women and by armed groups. What assessment has been made of girls are at risk even if they survive these attacks, the situation of refugees and IDPs, the numbers, the because only 53% of health facilities have clinical capacity needs and the attacks? There were disturbing reports of for management of rape and sexual violence, and only people being forcibly relocated from refugee camps one in 10 health facilities overall are functioning, many earlier in this crisis. What has happened to them? What of which are controlled by—or at least access to them is assessment has been made? What has been the involvement controlled by—those who have been committing crimes. of Eritrean or other irregular forces in attacks in that In the Amnesty International report, the father of a region? 10-year-old child who was raped in November 2020—I In the last couple of days we have seen some pretty will not go into the details as they are simply too horrendous information from the UN about the Semera- horrific to read out—said Abala corridor,which has been inaccessible since 22 August, “he was not able to get his daughter—who suffered terrible and that 200,000 litres of fuel are required for the physical and psychological damage—to the hospital for four and humanitarian response, which is not available. Cash, a half months”. needed to pay for services locally, has not come in the 105WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 106WH levels needed to provide those services. UNICEF reported We have a huge responsibility. We have a particular that 100,000 people face severe or acute malnutrition relationship, friendship and history with Ethiopia through this year. our aid programme, and the world has a responsibility The acting humanitarian co-ordinator in Tigray, Grant to protect civilians in such crises. This House and the Leaity, said British public have a keen interest in the situation in “all parties to the conflict must allow and facilitate the rapid and Ethiopia; we all want to see a prosperous, secure and unimpeded passage of impartial humanitarian relief to avert inclusive Ethiopia, but sadly that seems very far from this…catastrophe.” the present situation. He is very stark in what he says about risks of famine and significant levels of mortality.Weheard from colleagues Geraint Davies (in the Chair): The Minister has about about reports of 150 people allegedly having died directly 15 minutes if he allows two minutes for the Chair of the of starvation. That report is from the Tigrayan People’s International Development Committee to respond. With Liberation Front and cannot be independently verified, luck, there might even be time for a couple of interventions. but it tallies with the figures we have heard from the UN Over to you, Minister. and other agencies, which have spoken of 400,000 people already living in famine-like conditions. 10.42 am I will end by asking the Minister some specific questions. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Yesterday, the WFP announced that it faces a funding Commonwealth and Development Affairs (James Duddridge): gap of $426 million for its operations across Ethiopia, Fantastic. Thank you, Mr Davies, for providing plenty to meet the needs of 12 million people in 2021. The US of time. I know that there is lots of interest in this issue increased its funding to the WFP by $149 million in across the House, and it is quite right that we review it. June. I wonder what the UK will do specifically to This is a great opportunity both to update the House on support agencies such as the WFP. We have also heard what is happening and to answer questions directly, and about women’s programmes that have been cut. I am more than happy to take interventions throughout. We have been clear that the decision to cut the aid The horrific conflict in northern Ethiopia has now commitment from 0.7% to 0.5% was completely wrong, entered its 11th month. To make matters worse—to and that is exemplified in situations such as this. I know reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton that the Minister does not want to answer this question Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) and others—I am concerned directly, but I will ask him again: is our total support to about it spreading not only within the region but across Ethiopia going up or down this year? He has spoken the rest of Ethiopia. I will go into more detail on about giving £42.7 million, plus £5 million for refugees contacts and activity, which are very much at the forefront in Sudan—obviously that is welcome, with the focus on of what is happening in the Foreign, Commonwealth Tigray—but if the total support for Ethiopia is going and Development Office—I was in a meeting with the down, that money is being diverted from other needs. Foreign Secretary last week reviewing all this. As the There are many needs elsewhere in Ethiopia, so that is hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen deeply concerning. I worry that we will find ourselves in Doughty) mentioned, the Foreign Secretary spoke to a situation similar to Afghanistan, where cuts simply Prime Minister Abiy last month, and not a day goes by have to be reversed. We need to be putting resource in when I do not engage in this issue, either directly or because the needs are so great. through other intermediaries, whether they be other I have mentioned access issues. Have the Government countries, regional players or organisations. This is not raised the road access issues for fuel and food trucks in just a concern for the United Kingdom; it is a concern recent days? There seem to have been particular problems across the continent and for international bodies. in the last few weeks. The Security Council report May I address the issue of money? I know that there mentioned that Turkey and Sudan have been attempting is a debate about the 0.5% and 0.7% commitments, but to act as mediators, and other regional powers have also the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth nailed been attempting to act as mediators in the conflict. it when he referred to Samantha Power. The real issue is What is the Minister’s assessment of those regional and not money and resource in Ethiopia; it is getting access. international efforts? Is the UK offering any particular I will go through some of the detail and the numbers on diplomatic and good-offices support to attempt to reach that access. The next stage will be moving from conflict a peaceful settlement between the parties? to mediation, when I am sure there will be resourcing I understand that the Foreign Secretary spoke to issues, and the points being made now will perhaps be Prime Minister Abiy in early August. Has there been more relevant. I will not focus on the broader debate; further contact with Prime Minister Abiy, Ethiopian hopefully hon. Members will recognise that there is a Ministers and other parties to the conflict since that more immediate problem of access. time? I welcome that the Foreign Secretary did that, and Let me get into some of the detail and update the I am sure that the Minister himself has been in contact House on what has been happening. The Tigray People’s with people, but it would be useful to understand who Liberation Front continues military action, which is and when. Have we identified anybody for Magnitsky-style going beyond Tigray into the Amhara and Afar regions. sanctions yet? The US Department of the Treasury That is extending the remit and the nature of the imposed sanctions on the chief of staff of the Eritrean suffering. We have consistently called on all sides to defence forces for alleged crimes in Ethiopia. Have we stop the fighting. It is horrific to have to listen to the issued any sanctions? I know that the Minister will not stories of what is happening, but it is clear that rape, speak about potential sanctions, but have we issued sexual violence and famine are being used as weapons any? What role have we been playing at the Human of war. Reference was made to chemical weapons. It is Rights Council? What discussions have we had with the difficult to establish definitively what is being used, but UN High Commissioner for Human Rights? it is clear that civilian populations are being targeted, 107WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 108WH

[James Duddridge] Sarah Champion: The director of Oxfam in Ethiopia yesterday raised the fact that because the internet is which in itself is against international humanitarian down—deliberately—it was almost impossible to get law. If someone’s child, mother or family dies, how they money transfers, which deeply hampers its process. May die may be technically relevant, but their being targeted I echo his plea for the Minister to try to get at least a is the offensive thing that we need to stop happening. window of the internet up so that money transfers can Humanitarian agencies are realistically facing what I occur? would describe as a de facto blockade of aid into James Duddridge: I will investigate the specific issue Tigray.Toavert further humanitarian catastrophe beyond of internationals working together to make sure that the atrocities we have already seen, we call on the money comes through. I am in touch with Ethiopian Ethiopian Government to allow unfettered access and Ministers, including the Finance Minister, and I will start restoring essential services. I will go into a bit more raise that issue with him. That is a slightly separate detail in a second. problem from the one that we are discussing. Eritrean forces are, alas, once again in Ethiopian sovereign territory in significant numbers. They must Jim Shannon: In my contribution, I referred to churches withdraw, and their failure to do so will lead to a further and NGOs who are active in the Tigray region. If we escalation in this conflict, which simply is not needed. have such groups operating there, is it not possible to The position that both parties are taking is not helpful. co-ordinate our relief efforts alongside those people I have been asked about mediation. There have been a and groups to ensure that when it comes to getting to number of mediation attempts, and there is a lot of the people who need it, they can work in partnership? discussion. I will not go into the detail of some of that That is just a thought. It is important to use all the mediation, but it is fair to say that it is not currently avenues that we can. working, so different things need to be tried in different ways. James Duddridge: It is a good thought. It is something that we are doing and will do. I will certainly discuss Since November, more than 2 million people have with our envoy for freedom of religion or belief, my been displaced across Tigray, and 450,000 have been hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), displaced just in Afar and Amhara in the more recent how to make it as effective as possible. The networks are conflicts. Basically, everything has broken down. Ninety really useful to validate informally before we see what is per cent. of hospitals and health centres are not working. happening on the ground. There are no banking facilities and no electricity. Communications are down, which makes it very difficult Stephen Doughty: On the point about communications, to verify some of the stories. If things open up, which the Minister is aware that our own CDC and also we encourage, no doubt we will find out more and it will Vodafone have invested substantial amounts in the new feel worse. Ethiopia telecommunications partnership. Opening up telecommunications to people in Ethiopia is obviously Florence Eshalomi: On communications, I highlighted a good thing for all the people, but, given the issues with that I have constituents who are very worried about money transfers, internet access and telecommunications their families. If the Minister is saying that communication being cut off, is there not an incongruity here? What will has broken down, is there anything more the Government we do through those investments to ensure that we get can do to help Members who are trying to get that telecommunications open in Tigray properly? crucial information for their constituents? James Duddridge: Various Members have talked about the size of the population of 120 million. My hon. James Duddridge: There are things at the periphery Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), that can be done, but the heart is about building that the able chair of the all-party group, has talked about a access in the fullest sense of the word. Early in the nation of optimism. This is one of the gems at the heart conflict, we were even finding evidence of satellite phones of our east African strategy. It would be a bastion of from aid organisations being taken and used for other stability if we could build out and not have to resolve purposes, further breaking down communication. There problems. Telecommunications is an essential good. It are some parties that do not want open access to allows people to trade and allows cash transfers, so the communications—they want to finish the conflict, as investment is right. It is a long-term investment that we they see it—on both sides. have talked about for years and will be deliverable going On supplies getting through, there is a need for more forward. It does seem incongruous to talk of Ethiopia than 100 trucks every single day to get in. That is a as a place of optimism and investment, but we simply massive logistical effort, even if everybody were behind have to get back to that place when we get beyond this it. Since 12 July, only about 10% of the required aid has because that is where development happens. been able to get through, so UN warehouses in Tigray There are echoes of the ’80s and Live Aid—we did a are not being restocked: they are empty. Most people brilliant job, and Ethiopia has done a brilliant job in are not eating, effectively, or are not eating enough. bringing itself up. When there has been a natural crisis, There is no private sector provision, so even if one has it has needed help, but it has also been able to help itself. money there is nothing to buy. Displaced individuals We need to reset and get back to that position, but we are relying on host communities who are already suffering. are so far from that point at the moment. The lack of goods means that prices have gone up fivefold, and community resilience is eroding to the Mr Mitchell: The Minister is right about the massive point of tipping over to an even more serious and British taxpayer investment and the huge results that systemic problem. have been achieved. Will he follow my earlier comments 109WH Tigray 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Tigray 110WH and give Members an undertaking that he will look Geraint Davies (in the Chair): Please leave enough personally at the funding for the World Food Programme, time at the end. which is absolutely at the critical edge of the humanitarian crisis? Will he look at its funding this year to see what Fleur Anderson: I have a very short question. The more can be done to meet the need? Minister referred to high-level conversations; has the Prime Minister spoken to Prime Minister Abiy? James Duddridge: I will. I am already in communication with David Beasley and have discussed food provision James Duddridge: I do not know, so I do not want to in Ethiopia with him. He is an influential figure in the say yes or no and mislead. This is very much on his region. Today, my initial issue is getting access: it is not desk, but I do not have a kind of tick-tock of his getting food. Until we sort that, no amount of money interactions. The situation is dire and horrific, but there or WFP extra resource will do it, but there will be a is a nation and a positive relationship we can get back point at which we need to do that and we need to be to. We have a long-standing and deep friendship with ready, so I pledge to have another discussion with David the people of Ethiopia. Our development partnership Beasley to take the issues forward. has made a major contribution to lifting people out of I am concerned to hear reports of press, NGOs, civil poverty and to political and economic reform, and had society and churches being targeted. We will confirm increased prosperity in that country. I talk today about whether that is happening. If people are being arrested the horrific incidents with great sadness, but we should based on their ethnicity, clearly there needs to be stringent aim to get back to where we were, progress with that following of international human rights rules. I want to nation and put it back on a more positive path. reassure hon. Members that we are fully engaged at all levels—locally with those groups and at the United 10.57 am Nations through Lord Ahmad. Sarah Champion: I thank every Member who has Nick Dyer has also been to Ethiopia twice since spoken, for both the tone and the content. I thank the November with the envoy on famine prevention, and Minister, who I know is deeply committed to this area. has had access to Tigray. British embassy staff have The problem is that this is not going to go away. It is visited on multiple occasions. I spoke yesterday with important for us all to keep it on the agenda of the our chargé and new development director to get updates. Minister and of the international community. The risks That is a very normal thing, although I would have we have highlighted are dire. I cannot see an easy way done that in preparation for this debate—as I say, not a for them to be resolved without international intervention, day goes by that I am not doing something on this. That to get all the parties round the table and discuss a is not to say we are doing enough, but it gives hon. long-term solution. The threats to the broader region Members an idea. are profound. It is good that President Obasanjo was appointed on I would like to raise one thing with the Minister that 26 August to look at issues in the horn. That is another came up in the debate: atrocity prevention. It was the way of pushing mediation of various descriptions. We one thing in the Committee’s report that the Government are doing a lot through the G7, through discussions pushed back on. I would like to request a meeting with with all counterparties. Notwithstanding the fact that the Minister to discuss that. money and food are not the immediate issue, we are still the second largest donor to Ethiopia. James Duddridge: I agree. I note the work that has On sexual violence, there is some good news. My hon. been done on that, but there is still more to be done, and Friend the hon. Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), a more nuanced solution. I will arrange a meeting with who is no longer in his place, led a debate on that officials to work out a better way forward following the following his intervention on the Select Committee. We Committee’s report. are now deploying two individuals based on the scoping mission into Mekelle. Sarah Champion: Thank you. Question put and agreed to. Fleur Anderson: Will the Minister give way? Resolved, That this House has considered the humanitarian situation in James Duddridge: Very briefly. Tigray. 111WH 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Co-operative Purchase of Companies 112WH

Co-operative Purchase of Companies a stake and an opportunity to shape the manner in which the business they had purchased was operated. 11 am Such employee buy-outs can hardwire resilience and productivity into our economy by preserving productive Geraint Davies (in the Chair): Before we begin, I businesses and giving employees greater motivation and encourage Members to wear masks when they are not incentive through their stake in the organisation. speaking, in line with current Government guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. Please That is particularly important where jobs and the also give each other and members of staff space when local economy are dependent on a small number of seated, and when entering and leaving the room. Members larger employers in areas such as manufacturing, where should send their speaking notes to hansardnotes@ the collapse or downsizing of those companies has a parliament.uk. Similarly, officials should communicate disproportionate impact on local communities. When electronically with Ministers. large companies fold or shrink, and in cases of potential closure, most often due to conjunctural reasons or 11.1 am succession issues, employee buy-outs give people a viable Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to move, option for saving businesses and jobs. That this House has considered co-operative purchase of companies We can learn much from Italy and the so-called by employee groups at risk of redundancy. Marcora law, named after the former Italian industry It is always a pleasure to see you in the Chair,Mr Davies. Minister Giovanni Marcora, who established the worker As a Labour and Co-operative Member, I am delighted buy-out system more than 30 years ago, to divert the to have secured the debate, which provides a vital money spent on unemployment to retain jobs and continue opportunity to discuss a co-operative way to secure economic activity. The Marcora law gives workers the economic recovery after the devastating effects of the right and, most importantly, the financial support to pandemic, and to build a UK economy that is more buy out all or parts of an at-risk business and establish inclusive and more equal than before. it as an employee-owned co-operative. Workers are The symptoms of inequality that have plagued our given the opportunity to rescue profitable parts of businesses economy for too long were there for all to see a long or the whole of profitable businesses. The legislation in time before the first pandemic lockdown was implemented Italy does that by giving those workers at risk of redundancy in March 2020. In one of the world’s richest economies, their unemployment benefits as a lump sum in advance too many families have been struggling to put food on to use as capital for the buy-out, as well as access to the the table, and the pandemic has highlighted this inequality. necessary support and advice to make it successful. I commend all the wonderful people who have worked, The results speak for themselves.Hundreds of businesses and who continue to work, relentlessly and tirelessly previously at risk of closure have been preserved as during all the severe challenges of the pandemic, in worker co-operatives, with an economic return of more order to make sure that our communities function. than six times the capital invested by the funding However, those wonderful workers take home some of mechanisms. In Italy, between 2007 and 2013, ¤84 million the lowest wages. As Robert Owen, the founder of the was made available for worker buy-outs, generating co-operative movement, who was born on 14 May 1771 ¤473 million and saving more than 13,000 jobs. in Newtown, Powys, in beautiful Wales, said: Marcora law buy-outs benefit hugely from their “The lowest stage of humanity is experienced when the individual co-operativeorganisation,whereemploymentissafeguarded must labour for a small pittance of wages from others.” and fair workplace conditions are guaranteed. The The economic inequality in the UK has cost lives economic and financial performances of co-operative during the pandemic. It is detrimental to our economic buy-outs are often superior to those of traditional growth, and it ensures that the UK remains fragile and businesses. vulnerable to economic shocks. Although those issues UK Co-operative party polling indicates that the were the symptoms, the underlying causes are just as public support co-operative buy-out innovation, with clear. Narrow ownership of our economy has resulted 64% believing the economy would be fairer if employees in the problems.Too much power and wealth is concentrated could buy their business if it was at risk of closure or in the hands of a small number of investors, shareholders sale. The Co-operative party has long championed the and executives. As a result, decisions are often made in impact that Marcora lawcould have in widening ownership the interests of the rich and powerful, rather than of our economy and reducing inequality, by giving promoting the interests of communities,workers,consumers workers a real stake and a practical opportunity to be and the environment. part of how their businesses are run. The public agree. According to polling conducted by the UK Co-operative party as part of its “Owning the As a Labour and Co-operative MP, I believe the UK Future”report, only 10% of people believe that the economy Tory Government should give serious consideration to prioritised sharing wealth fairly before the covid-19 introducing Marcora law-type provisions into UK law. pandemic, and nearly seven in 10 believe that our They can do that by introducing provisions to give recovery is an opportunity to give communities more of workers rights to take a stake in their workplace by a say in how business and the economy can operate, implementing a statutory right to own, supported by which is exactly what is needed—a widening of ownership, financial assistance and advice from the Government. so that we give a greater voice to people who work for, New legislation should also be introduced to give use and are affected by businesses that shape their lives employees adequate opportunity to request ownership and our economy. One way in which we can do that is during business succession, alongside an early warning by giving employees the opportunity to buy out and resource capable of informing workers in advance of operate companies at risk of closure. The companies insolvency, or when viable businesses are at risk of would be run as co-operatives, so that each worker had disposal. That would give employees the ability to assess 113WH Co-operative Purchase of Companies8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Co-operative Purchase of Companies 114WH the scope for acquisition, time to prepare a co-operative buy out their businesses? Will he investigate the successes business model and an opportunity to bid for a business of the Marcora law in Italy and bring forward an that is at risk of shrinking or closing. equivalent provision for employees in the UK? What Not only will the employee buy-outs save jobs and actions is he undertaking to increase the size of the businesses, but their transition to a co-operative model co-operative sector.? with help to hardwire the principles and values of In conclusion, as we look forward to moving on from co-operation into our economy. A co-operative business the worst days of the pandemic, we are presented with a model gives workers a stake and a voice in how their unique chance to do things differently in our economy. business is run, and economies with a greater percentage Going back to business as usual will not be good of co-operatively owned businesses have been shown to enough—not when the economy that existed before the be more equal, more productive and more resilient. pandemic did not work for so many people. The UK Co-operative communities are more equitable and have Government have an opportunity to build a fairer economy a narrower gap between rich and poor. Co-operatives that works in the interests of communities, workers, widen ownership and ensure that the businesses on consumers and the environment. Learning from the which workers, consumers and communities depend innovation and success of the Marcora law in Italy is operate in the long-term interests of their workers, not one way of doing that, by giving workers the legislative those of long-distance shareholders. and financial means they need to take a greater stake in By existing to provide a service for members, rather their business and the economy. The buy-out of at-risk than generate profits for investors, co-operatives that companies by employees would crucially widen ownership. have formed when businesses are bought by employees It would safeguard businesses and give workers greater are essential to create a better economy that puts people control in the future and a real voice in the decisions before profit. A larger co-operative sector is a sign of a that affect them. The opportunity is here, as is the different economy, where purpose and participation are support and appetite from the public and workers to valued above profit maximisation. A UK Marcora law continue the spirit to work together that emerged during would not just maintain individual businesses but, through the most difficult days of the pandemic. the implementation of co-operative ideals, help the UK The UK Government should rewrite the rules governing shift to a fairer and more democratic economy. our economy so that co-operative values are given the On his election as leader of Welsh Labour, my dear opportunity to flourish and grow. I know the Minister friend Mark Drakeford, the First Minister of Wales, is a very magnanimous person, so I urge him to embrace appointed a Minister with specific responsibilities for the co-operative sector, implement Marcora law and, as the co-operative sector, Lee Waters, the Labour and my good Hywel Francis, the former MP for Aberavon, Co-operative MS for Llanelli. In May, the Welsh Labour used to say, “Get on the right side of history.” Government were overwhelmingly re-elected on a radical Geraint Davies (in the Chair): I, too, give my best left-wing manifesto, which pledged to provide greater wishes to Karen Wilkie and Sylvia Jones. It is appropriate support for worker buy-outs and, with the co-operative that we have this debate 250 years after the birth of sector, seek to double the number of employee-owned Robert Owen. With magnanimity, over to the Minister. businesses in Wales. Perhaps the Prime Minister should take the lead from Mark and appoint a UK Minister for 11.16 am co-operatives, and include doubling the size of the UK’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, co-operative sector in the next Tory manifesto. Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): It is a I would like to thank all the amazing co-operators in pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. the UK Co-operative party for continuing to strive to It is a privilege to respond to the hon. Member for work together in pursuit of Robert Owen’s values and Neath (Christina Rees) and I congratulate her on securing beliefs. A special mention goes to my friends on the Wales the debate. She asked about a Minister for the co-operative Co-operative council. Our wonderful assistant general movement. That is indeed the Economic Secretary to secretary, Karen Wilkie, has retired after 22 years of the Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury tireless work championing co-operative values. I thank (John Glen). I believe he is the longest-serving Economic our long-term and long-suffering secretary,K. C. Gordon, Secretary to the Treasury. The reason for that is partly who has worked so hard to keep us in co-operative because he is magnanimous and looks at the economy order, and I thank a stalwart of our movement, Sylvia as a whole, beyond the macro down to the human level. Jones, who will be 88 years young in December, and has That includes the value that he and the Government been a member of the Labour party since 1963 and a place on the co-operative movement. Co-operatives bring member of the Co-operative party since 1967, has won something different from other forms of businesses to many awards, and became the first ever female chair of the landscape and communities of the country. They the TUC on 6 May 1979. have a clear focus on serving their communities’ needs. May I ask the Minister to answer some questions? As I speak, Members will hear about the work that he Has he or his Department conducted an assessment of and the Government are doing. the benefits of the existing co-operative sector to the To answer the specific question about an assessment, UK economy? If he has done so, will he publish the we have not done one and do not plan to do so, but we results and place a copy in the House of Commons do value co-operatives and have done much to support Library? If he has not, will he consider carrying out them. I will cover that in my speech, so that the hon. such an assessment? What consideration has he and his Member for Neath can hear of the work that we have Department given to the potential benefits of employee been doing. She has raised the issue a number of times buy-outs for at-risk businesses? What plans do the UK with the Economic Secretary, and it is right that we are Government have to increase employee buy-outs through here today to listen to her points about the movement greater legislative support? Will the Government give that she supports. There are clearly staunch advocates more financial support to those employees looking to of workers’ co-operatives across the House. 115WH Co-operative Purchase of Companies8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Co-operative Purchase of Companies 116WH

[Paul Scully] deeper understanding of what is causing the companies to fail in the first place and of whether transforming We want to see the co-operative sector grow. We see them into worker co-operatives would really resolve co-operatives in the employee-ownership model as being those structural issues. That knowledge is really important, good for workers, local communities and businesses. because providing funding to businesses that are That is why we have introduced a series of measures in unsustainable is a poor use of taxpayer money. recent years to support and promote the sector. One It is clear from this debate, however, that we are example is the Co-operative and Community Benefit united in our desire to protect jobs and employers from Societies Act 2014, which cut the legal complexity involved the impact of the pandemic long into the future, so I in running a co-operative. Alongside that legislation, we will briefly touch on our work in this area. First of all, increased the amount of withdrawable share capital a let me remind Members that the Government are providing member can invest in a co-operative from £20,000 to extraordinary levels of financial support to individuals £100,000, which has given a number of societies greater and businesses affected by covid-19. In fact, by the end flexibility to raise capital from individual members. of this month, the furlough scheme will have helped to The hon. Lady asked about reviewing the legislation. pay workers’ wages for a year and a half, supporting We do not plan to undertake a review of the 2014 Act, over 1 million employers and more than 11 million jobs. buttheGovernmentareopentoreceivingcredibleproposals In addition, at last year’sspending review,the Government for its reform. I encourage the sector to ensure that it built on the Chancellor’s plan for jobs by giving the continues to engage with officials from Her Majesty’s Department for Work and Pensions an extra £3.6 billion Treasury on suggestions in that area. We have also rolled to deliver labour market support. That includes funding out a variety of tax reliefs to support organisations that for the Government’s new three-year restart programme, choose an employee-ownership structure. Like any other which will provide intensive and tailored assistance to business, co-operatives have been able to benefit from over 1 million unemployed people to help them find work. the Government’ssupport during the pandemic, including Last year, the Government launched the £2 billion the furlough scheme and business loans. kickstart scheme,which is rolling out hundreds of thousands I turn now to the hon. Lady’s proposal that we of new, fully subsidised jobs for young people across the introduce a policy similar to Italy’sMarcora law.Although country.Over 50,000 positions have already been created, there are currently no plans to introduce legislation of and the number of young people supported by the that type, we are always open to receiving proposals scheme will continue to rise as we approve more bids that support co-operatives and employee-owned firms. and as more employers recruit kickstart participants. The Economic Secretary and community representatives, Wealso recognise that large-scale layoffs can pose enormous along with the hon. Members for Harrow West (Gareth challenges to affected communities, which is why in Thomas) and for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin), are such circumstances we deploy the rapid response service looking to discover what more can be done to boost the of the Department for Work and Pensions, which provides sector’s ability to raise capital, following the green shares immediate and personalised support to mitigate the Bill last year. impact of redundances. In June, the Economic Secretary spoke about a wide Undoubtedly, the failure of large businesses can have range of issues relating to co-operatives and mutuals very significant consequences for local economies.However, with the hon. Member for Neath and other members of it is equally true that the closure of a much-loved pub or the all-party parliamentary group for mutuals. As I long-established village shop can be a major blow to understand it, the Marcora law was mentioned during areas, with the loss of jobs and vital community assets. those discussions. It is only right, however, that we For that reason, at the Budget, the Government announced acknowledge the need to take a pragmatic approach to the £150 million community ownership fund. The scheme the issue. First, there are clear differences between the operates in a similar way to the Marcora law. It allows Italian and UK economies, which could mean that the community groups to bid for up to £250,000 of match positive impacts of a Marcora law might not be as funding from the Government, enabling them to take strongly felt in this country. The unemployment rate over valuable and viable local assets at risk of closure. is one of those differences. The most recent UK We are currently assessing first-round bids, and we unemployment figure from the OECD was 4.7%; by believe that this money will save jobs, protect services contrast, the Italian unemployment level stood at 9.3%. and help to keep the spirit of co-operative entrepreneurship There is clear disparity between those numbers. alive around the country.Successful bids will be announced That is not all. In addition to the UK’s comparatively later this autumn. low unemployment rate, we are rolling out unprecedented I will end by reiterating my thanks to the hon. Member levels of job support to get even more people into work. for Neath for her thoughtful contributions today and to The upshot, according to the latest OECD data, is that the co-operative movement as a whole for its work. I UK workers are less likely than Italian workers to be hope that I have illustrated that the Government are unemployed for sustained periods of time, so it is far both committed to supporting worker co-operatives from clear that a Marcora-style policy here would deliver and determined to protect those at risk of unemployment the same levels of welfare savings for the taxpayer as it as a result of company failure. My ministerial colleagues does in Italy. As Members may be aware, those savings and I are keen to continue the conversation with are sometimes cited as a reason to introduce the policy co-operative representatives as we work together to secure in this country, as we have heard. these vibrant and innovative organisations’future success. Secondly, we need to learn more about the productivity Question put and agreed to. implications of such a policy. In short, we have to be sure that employee-led buyouts under the Marcora law 11.24 am really are long-term solutions. That means gaining a Sitting suspended. 117WH 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 118WH

Rough Sleeping we need to treat rough sleepers and the homeless as humans with individual needs, not as statistics. Take substance abuse. Councillor Fran Oborski, who is the [CHRISTINA REES in the Chair] treasurer of a homelessness charity, emailed me about 2.30 pm how many rough sleepers have substance abuse issues— something that is often not helped in hostels or temporary Christina Rees (in the Chair): I remind hon. Members accommodation—and said that we need to improve to wear masks when they are not speaking. This is in access to rehabilitation services for those who want or line with current Government guidance and that of the need them. House of Commons Commission. Please also give each other and members of staff space when seated and Someone who used to be homeless and who now when entering and leaving the room. Members works with rough sleepers emailed me to say that the should send their speaking notes by email to speed with which services want people to make progress [email protected]. Similarly, officials should only adds to their problems instead of solving them. communicate electronically with Ministers. Given the pressure the services are already under, they cannot address the traumas rough sleepers have faced. Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): I That point is echoed by the Salvation Army, which beg to move, points out that we need more funding for support That this House has considered ending rough sleeping. services to tackle the root causes. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, “Everyone In” brought people off the streets, but it Ms Rees. It is a joy to be back in Westminster Hall with did nothing to repair trust between many rough sleepers colleagues after what has felt like a very long time. and authorities—councils, services and Government. While it looks a bit sparse, and I appreciate that there is Someone who simply goes by the name London Homeless a lot going on in the Chamber, I know that ending Info emailed me to say that they are sceptical about the rough sleeping is important to many Members across aims of councils, charities and services. We will not the House. I am grateful to have been granted this solve the rough sleeping crisis without addressing that debate to bring it up the agenda. issue of trust. How do we do that? That is what we all Here we go again: we are debating how we end the want. How do we break the negative cycle of people blight of rough sleeping. The pandemic has shown us returning to the streets and failing in those services—and, that the will and capacity to radically change policy is more to the point, those services failing them? there, albeit in an emergency. “Everyone In” was without The liberal approach would be to empower those doubt a success. It was a phenomenal response to an forced to sleep rough, not to dictate—as is often international health crisis, but it is not a sustainable unfortunatelythecasecurrently—narrowpathwaysdesigned response to a national rough sleeping crisis. That is by others. People going through tough times should be what I want to focus on. The pandemic has shown that able to decide for themselves what support they want, there are systemic problems preventing us from grasping and the state should then be ready to respond. I appreciate the nettle and getting to the root causes of rough that that is no easy task and actually flips the entire sleeping and homelessness. system on its head, but if we actually listen to rough I do not dispute that “Everyone In” was remarkable, sleepers we know what they want. and I applaud the Minister and the Government for Gemma, who was sleeping outside Joe & The Juice their efforts. During the pandemic, 355 people in Oxford on Oxford Street last year, told the Mayday Trust: were brought off the streets and out of hostels into safe “Living in a hostel is no life. It doesn’t help me with my accommodation. Now, 215 people are in settled housing. depression. The atmosphere feels like a graveyard in there.” It is becoming clear that we need to turn our minds to a long-term, permanent solution. Insight from the CHAIN Richard, who was begging on Victoria Street, said: database tells us that in 2021, at the height of the “I’m being told I have to go to a hostel; I really don’t want to pandemic and the “Everyone In” campaign, London go. I know I will relapse. Everyone there takes drugs. I’m trying to saw more people returning to rough sleeping than it had stay sober but they are forcing me to go.” in the last four years. That is about one third of the Talk about a rock and a hard place—someone gets rough sleepers that were on the streets. Why, when we themselves on their feet and is told that they have to put had the successful programme, was that happening? themselves in a position that will send them backwards. We have to ask those who were affected. There is a The answer to rough sleeping is not just more money, gentleman called Mr T, who spoke to the Mayday Trust more emergency accommodation or more housing, last year as part of their “Wisdom from the Pandemic” especially social housing. We have to look beyond the work. From Westminster tube station, just metres from statistics. All of that is important, but when we are where we are now, he said: commissioning the services, we need to change our “They gave me a room in a hotel. It was miles away. I was mindset. We are commissioning with, not just for, people. lonely, everyone I know is here. I didn’t know what was going on, We need to provide them with unconditional and how long I was going to be there, so I came back here.” personalised support. The “Everyone In” campaign may have worked, but it We also need to appreciate, Ms Rees, that a rough did not work for everyone. We need to learn from these sleeper could be us. They could be our friends or our experiences. family members. Their stories highlight that often what Councillor Ben Martin, cabinet member for housing causes someone to become a rough sleeper is a series of at Swale Borough Council, told me that his experience events that compound—family breakdown, job loss, ill is that rough sleeping must be about the individual, not health. We cannot think of rough sleepers as an other. the symptoms, and about their hopes and dreams, not They are us. We need to give them the autonomy and their problems. To fundamentally end rough sleeping, respect that any one of us in this room would want. 119WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 120WH

[Layla Moran] Councils need to be given sufficient time to bid for money, and then to spend it. Giving them two to Aspire and Oxfordshire Homeless Movement do four weeks to bid for the rough sleeping accommodation something like that. They treat the person as an individual, programme, which requires that properties are purchased with coaching, and catch them just before the point of and occupied within the same financial year, makes it rough sleeping. After Adeline reached out to them, she almost impossible for local authorities in the south-east says, she has to be successful. Surely some common-sense tweaks to “now found a part-time live-in role, complemented by my freelance that bidding process could achieve better value for the graphic design work, and sleep well and safe. This experience money that is coming in. made me realise that anyone can become vulnerable at some point There are more lessons that we need to learn, but at in their life”. the heart of a renewed strategy must be that the rough I dare say that, after the pandemic, more and more sleeper is an individual. They should be part of the people of a background that most of us here might process, not have policies imposed on them. I have recognise—perhaps even more than before—are ending heard too many stories of the bad experiences some up in this situation. people have had with councils, rogue landlords and service providers. I fundamentally believe—I genuinely The Mayday Trust has done lots of work to develop a do, which I do not often say—that this Government new approach called the person-led, transitional and want to improve the situation, but I urge them to put it strength-based response, or PTS. That gives people the high up on their priority list because 2027 is not that far ability to choose the support that they want at a time away. The pandemic has been challenging, but it has that works for them, working with someone who coaches also provided an opportunity to see what can work. I them through and helps them find the right pathway. say grasp this nettle and use this opportunity. Upcoming research from the New Economics Foundation In conclusion, I have a few simple questions. The shows a correlation between being treated with dignity Minister will be surprised that I have not mentioned and respect and a person taking positive actions. We all this yet, but when will we scrap the Vagrancy Act 1824? want those positive actions to happen, because that is I have been banging on about this for over four years. how we end the rough sleeping crisis. That kind of Six months ago, the Secretary of State said that it is approach—trusting people with their own decisions—helps happening. Please can we have an update on some to build trust between the individual and the state. timelines? When will we give councils certainty and As the Local Government Association, Crisis, Shelter long-term funding for rough sleeping programmes? Will and others have said, we urgently need a renewed, the Minister come back to the House with a renewed, detailed, cross-departmental strategy for how the detailed and thought-through strategy for how we are Government plan to meet their commitment to end going to end rough sleeping for good, recognising the rough sleeping by 2027. I say that knowing, of course, changing circumstances that we are in? that the Minister takes a particular interest in this We need to give rough sleepers support, but I urge the matter. However, we are very concerned that, to end Minister to consider that the plan must also give them rough sleeping, we need all Government Departments control. What we are doing is not working, particularly to join up in their thinking. Without a new strategic for the last few, who will be the most difficult to win approach, the Government will not meet this manifesto round. We need to start building a strategy that reaches commitment. The Government have broken three of out to them now if we are to be successful in just over those so far. Will this one be next? five years’ time. With a combination of intervention The Government are not short of expert through programmes like Housing First, prevention recommendations from local government, the sector through better mental health and financial support and and elsewhere to draw on. Crisis, which has an event through social house building, and empowerment through after the debate that I want to plug to all Members, is a system that works with the individual, we can do this. absolutely right to urge the Government to adopt the I believe there is cross-party support to do it. I thank all Housing First approach to permanently end homelessness those who are here today and I look forward to the for those with the most serious needs. Should the Treasury Minister’s response. be listening, if the priority is to rebuild our finances after the pandemic, then it should prioritise the analysis Christina Rees (in the Chair): We do not need to published by Crisis today, which shows that Housing concern ourselves with time limits. First is cost-effective. For every £1 we put in, we get £1.24 back because we are reducing dependencies on 4.44 pm services. It is win-win. Can the Minister tell us if there Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): It is a have been any discussions with the Treasury and the pleasure to serve under your chairship this afternoon, Chancellor ahead of the spending review about rolling Ms Rees. I congratulate the hon. Member for Oxford out Housing First across England? West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) on securing the The Government are making things harder by cutting debate on this crucial issue. the universal credit uplift and freezing the local housing I was elected in December 2019 with a pledge to end allowance. Shelter has suggested a model of “protect, rough sleeping on the streets of Hastings and Rye, prevent and build” for this strategy, which I hope the which is a pledge I intend to keep. As constituency MPs, Minister is considering. Shelter, the LGA and individual we will all have had experiences of meeting and hearing councillors have told me about the need to fix local from those who have unfortunately fallen into homelessness authority funding in this area. There should be ongoing, and rough sleeping. The distress and desperation that dedicated funding for councils to tackle rough sleeping individuals in that position experience is hard to hear and prevent homelessness in the first place. and challenging to overcome. 121WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 122WH

The Government have committed vast amounts of 2.48 pm investment since the last general election to support Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is work to eradicate rough sleeping, and to support those always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, who find themselves homeless. In the 2021 Budget, the Ms Rees. I congratulate the hon. Member for Oxford Chancellor pledged a further £676 million, which included West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) on calling a debate a rough sleepers’support scheme of £221 million. Hastings on this very important issue. has benefited from that investment in eradicating rough sleeping, and I thank the Government for that. In one of the richest nations, in 2021, we are still debating the issue of people who are left with no home As welcome as the funding is, I have discovered and no choice but, night after night, to sleep in shop something that is equally important in tackling the doorways and, day after day, to sit in them, pained with issue, and that is collaboration. When I was first elected loneliness. The deal that the Government have talked and made tackling rough sleeping one of my top priorities, about around homelessness should not be transactional I was struck by how many organisations were already but relational. This is the reality of people’s lives. They working on this: councils, churches, faith groups, large are not numbers—they are people who need attention national charities and individuals doing their bit here and focus. and there. What was evident, though, was the disjointed We see homelessness services rush around, but when approach to providing support to those who most needed they go away somebody’s life can feel very isolated. it. It was clear to me that there needed to be more That is why we have to talk about people and the stories collaboration and joined-up thinking. that they hold. We look at our constituents in this situation. I talk to my homeless constituents very regularly Thanks to the fantastic work of Homeless Link, in and I know that they are looking to live out a fulfilled east Sussex we now have more of a joined-up approach. life. We need to move the language on and talk about Following a meeting last year, we have set up a forum people in our community. These are people who—let us aimed at preventing homelessness and mitigating the face it—have been failed by a society that has not risk factors of rough sleeping. It includes local charities, protected them and failed by a system that has not churches, organisations, local authority officers and provided for them. They are homeless not only because homelessness support representatives from all over, they have complex lives, but because they have no home. particularly those who are involved in housing and It is not rocket science. There is a simple solution: just health support. The forum meets on a regular basis, provide somewhere safe, somewhere personal and which means that all those concerned with tackling the somewhere to make a new beginning—somewhere not issue can meet to discuss progress and next steps. By to be isolated, but to be connected. working together, they are beginning to end the pandemic of rough sleeping in our area. The Government have The evidence on Housing First, as hon. Members played a crucial role, in providing funding and impetus have already said, shows that if we give somebody their to eradicate rough sleeping. Combined with the own place and give them the help they need and the collaboration of those on the ground, that is now hope they need, there is no cause for rough sleeping. delivering results. Nicholas Pleace, an academic in my city, at the University of York, has evidenced the impact, and today we are I agree with the hon. Member for Oxford West and hearing about a crisis furthering that evidence. There is Abingdon that another crucial aspect in tackling rough no need for delay, more pilots or more time to be spent sleeping is the Housing First policy. Piloted in 2017, the on this; we know that Housing First works. policy has supported and helped countless people, and What the Government did during the pandemic was was the foundation for the Government’s approach to right. There was the fear that covid would sweep through those sleeping on our streets during the covid-19 the homeless communities and so people were given a pandemic. It is the principle of helping those with the safe place. In York, that meant staying at an aparthotel, most complex needs not just with housing and support in hotel rooms with en suites and kitchenettes—microflats. for long-term accommodation needs, but to tackle the For the first time, somebody could be fully independent. causes of their rough sleeping, whether they be mental They had a resettlement opportunity, an opportunity to health issues, drug or alcohol misuse, unemployment or be on their own, to be in a stable place, to cook their family and relationship breakdown. Providing that own meals, to live their own lives and—yes, while restricted wraparound care and support, rather than just a roof and locked down—to start rebuilding their lives with over someone’s head, is the best way to tackle rough the services that were provided. Some had been on the sleeping and ensure that people do not end up back on streets for years. Others had been in and out of hostels— our streets. going through that rotating door. Suddenly they had the start they needed. Of course, behind that, we have That is why collaboration is so important in our seen charities step in, and I have to say that the charities approach to this issue. We need individuals and in York are utterly outstanding in the work that they do. organisations from all areas to provide that wraparound I met with a homeless person just a few months ago. support and work together to tackle the issue. That It is somebody I know really well and have talked to includes volunteers, local authorities and other often since I have been an MP. He told me how he now organisations. I conclude by asking the Government to has a job and now has pride. Others, because they have ensure that we focus not only on funding, but on done so well, are placed in their own accommodation. policies such as Housing First and the collaboration The initiative taught our services something really they instil in those working on the ground. Funding and important: if people have the right spaces, the right collaboration are the two crucial ingredients we need to opportunity and the right chance, which so many of us make a success of our pledge to eradicate rough sleeping take for granted, they can break the cycle—they can by the end of this Parliament. break through. 123WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 124WH

[Rachael Maskell] We need to ensure that the right stock is being built. We do not have enough of it. I want to encourage the However,the funding has ended. Of course, the funding Minister in all he does to seize this moment; to see this did not just go on housing; it also brought in a new as the time, after such a successful programme, to drive collaboration around the services that could be making forward resettlement housing, to give people that chance. people’s lives so different. For the first time, these I know that the leaders in York’s voluntary sector who people saw a dentist. They saw a GP. They had their oversee the homelessness project recognise the failure of needs addressed. They had people to talk to. They had the system in which they have to work. They want to services to help them to address some of their financial work and see the outcomes that all of us in this debate challenges and to show them how to navigate through long to see. the very complex world in which we live. I thank those Winter is coming. We have a chance to end rough organisations that have been working in that area and, sleeping once and for all. We know what has worked in in particular, organisations such as Kitchen for Everyone this pandemic, and we can do it again. It saves money York. They go out week by week, providing food and and it saves lives. I trust that the Minister will have the friendship to our homeless community. ammunition he needs to make this happen. However, with the funding ended, people are yet again on our streets. Let us just imagine if the initiative 2.58 pm were a permanent offer. People would be moving into Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) independent living instead of enduring years going in (Con): Diolch yn fawr, Ms Rees. It is a pleasure to serve and out of hostels. How much that would save the state! under your chairmanship, and I am delighted that the The step process of hostels to shared housing just does hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla not work. It does not work for the people involved, it Moran) has secured this debate. This is actually the does not work for the communities, and it does not third time I have taken part in such a debate: I called the work—let us face it—for Government. first two, so I am hoping it is third time lucky when it The answer must be Housing First. I speak regularly comes to what I hear from the Minister. with the Salvation Army and Changing Lives in York Before I talk about the wider issue of ending rough and I thank them, too, for what they do. They also sleeping, it is really important that we consider what the understand that they need a Housing First model and Government have done so far.This year alone, £750 million are desperate to see it. They believe it will save money, has already been put in to tackle rough sleeping and and not only save lives but rebuild them. homelessness, in particular the £203 million investment Tragically,however,we have not got the accommodation through the rough sleeping initiative—double what it we need. This is where I want to support the Minister to was last year. None of us can be in any doubt that the make these arguments because once again, in my city, Government are determined to end rough sleeping. the wrong housing is being built. The obscenity of We saw that with the “Everyone In” initiative during luxury apartments shooting up everywhere—not lived the pandemic, when national Government, local in, but sold as assets and second homes—when York is government and charities came together to collaborate, full of inadequately housed families and individuals, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye sofa surfers and rough sleepers, screams of a failed (Sally-Ann Hart) pointed out. But even when probably system. We have a planning Bill before us, and we need 90% of rough sleepers were housed during “Everyone the right homes to be built to meet the needs of my In”, the remaining 10%—the most entrenched rough community. sleepers—were still on the streets in the city. However, it is going to get worse in York. The cost of As the MP for the Cities of London and Westminster, living has shot up through this pandemic. The cost of I know full well the impact of rough sleeping on our housing—eye-watering sums—has gone up at the fastest streets. My constituency has the largest number of rate in the country. It is already a lower broad rental rough sleepers in the country—more than the next three market area, and therefore has a lower local housing boroughs in London combined. That shows how acute allowance, because of the broader area with which it is the issue is in Westminster. However,it is equally important associated; it does not even meet the cost of housing in to point out that only 3% of those on our streets have a the city. So many homes and council homes are still connection to Westminster, which shows that this is a being sold but we are not seeing a replenishment, and national and international problem on the streets of therefore we do not have the housing that our city Westminster. needs. It is completely out of joint. It is impacting our Having been responsible for rough sleeping strategy economy too: we cannot recruit people with the skills and services in Westminster for 10 years or so until I that are needed because they cannot afford to live in our came to this place, I know about the brilliant work that city; we cannot recruit social care workers who cannot the rough sleeping team at Westminster City Council do afford the accommodation in York either. day in, day out and night in, night out. They work with We need to talk about a new generation of resettlement partners such as St Mungo’s, which provides the outreach housing in the social housing mix—one that comes with service. Again, the outreach workers are out every single a price tag that talks about the support services that are night of the year—on the coldest and hottest nights, required too. There are so many communities across including Christmas. I pay tribute to those brilliant our constituencies that need resettlement, whether that outreach workers, with whom I have been out so many is people coming out of the criminal justice system, times over the last decade. refugees coming right now from Afghanistan—incredibly Why were 10% of rough sleepers left on the street? It vulnerable people—or perhaps those people about to was not a case of not having somewhere to go, because lose £20 a week from their universal credit, who will lose there was a room for every rough sleeper on the streets their home as a consequence. of Westminster, as there is tonight. Tonight there will be 125WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 126WH

500 beds available in this one borough alone, which is authorities across the country, is that we all believe in incredible. However, why are we still seeing people on one thing: we can, by working together, tackle rough the streets? It is because the vast number of people on sleeping and resolve it for good. our streets have mental health and addiction problems. Many hon. Members have mentioned the issue of From my experience, and as I am told by St Mungo’s funding. As I said, this Government have probably put and Westminster City Council’s outreach teams, these more into rough sleeping than any other Government people are some of the most damaged and vulnerable for decades—that is the right thing to do—but it is people in our society, and they need and deserve our about longer-term funding. I know from being responsible help. When they have such entrenched problems, however, for commissioning services in Westminster that we need to it can take years to build up trust with them. They will know as much as possible years in advance. It is does often refuse help, as I have seen. I have lived in the Cities not necessarily work to have a funding stream for a of London and Westminster for 25 years, and in year; we need at least three years. We need to be able Westminster for more than 20. During the “Everyone to commission services, and if we are to tackle the In” programme, we saw the 10% on our streets. I live in long-term reasons why people find themselves on the Pimlico, and they were there when we would come out street, we need those services to be there for at least to go shopping every day. They were so ill, and it is three years.Again, my plea to the Minister is for longer-term because of drugs and drink and the mental health issues funding. that they are suffering. If we do not come together on this matter, we will How do we go about helping people who refuse time continue to see people on the streets night in, night out. and again to be housed, even on the coldest days of the At the latest count, there were 171 rough sleepers in year? When I was responsible for rough sleeping at Westminster, which is much lower than in previous Westminster, I took out the Minister responsible for years, showing that we are working together and that rough sleeping on the coldest day of the year. He was the “Everyone In” strategy has had a longer-term effect. shocked to find people still sleeping on the street. When The vast majority of those still sleeping on the street do we have our cold weather plan, we open up churches, not tend to be British; they tend to be from eastern synagogues and other community halls, with no questions Europe. Wealso need to look at how local authorities—not asked. We do not even have to ask for people’s names. just in London, but across the country—can work with We just want people to come in and be safe—we want to people who do not have any recourse to public funds, save their lives. which is an ongoing issue. Any local authority or charity Even on the most dreadful nights of the year, people that works in rough sleeping would tell us that. still refuse to come in. Why? That is what we have to I pay tribute to the brilliant organisations that I have tackle, which is why I have been working together with mentioned, including Hotel School, a scheme set up by the brilliant people at Crisis, as well as the equally the Passage and Jeremy Goring of the Goring Hotel. brilliant people at St Mungo’s and The Passage, on They understand that if we are to help people off the repealing the Vagrancy Act 1824. When I asked the street and turn their lives around, tackle their mental Secretary of State in February in the House of Commons, ill-health and addiction issues—the reasons why they he said that the Act are on the street—and give them a place to live, they “should be consigned to history.”—[Official Report, 25 February also need skills and the ability to find a job. Hotel 2021; Vol. 689, c. 1138.] School, which is based in my constituency, is about I am forever hopeful that that will happen one day, doing that. It brings together hotels such as the Goring, and perhaps the Minister can enlighten us, but we are the Ritz and others to provide real training, and jobs working to replace the Act. From what the Government afterwards. I would love for the Minister to join me on a are saying, we think we have won the argument but visit to Hotel School in the near future, so that he can what do we replace the Act with? We need to have a new see what the private sector and charities such as the approach—an assertive outreach approach—whereby Passage are doing together. we have the mental health and addiction services available I have probably gone on for quite a long time now, on the street. We used to have mental health services on Ms Rees, but as you can probably tell I am passionate the street, but they have now gone. We need them back, about this subject. If I do nothing else in my time in and we need a health-led approach. We have heard Parliament, I hope that I can secure the repeal of the about Housing First; we have the housing, the hostels, Vagrancy Act and, equally importantly, its replacement the temporary accommodation and the move-on with the legislation, services and approach that will accommodation. It is about persuading the people who tackle rough sleeping once and for all. I really think we refuse to come off the street with that offer and about can do that, and from what I can see—and I have seen a tackling the reasons why they are on the street. Any lot of Governments in Westminster in my time in this expert in outreach would tell us that it is about tackling role—if any Government can do it, it is this Government. those causes. I am proud to be involved in and a member of the Kerslake Commission, for which St Mungo’s is the 3.10 pm secretariat. I have seen the first draft of the report, which is coming out in a couple of weeks’ time. It is one Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): of the most collaborative pieces of research on homelessness It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cities of and rough sleeping that I have ever seen, and I hope the London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken), and I thank Minister will welcome the abundance of recommendations her for bringing her insight and expertise to this debate. coming his way in the next couple of weeks. What I have I also thank the hon. Member for Oxford West and so far learned from taking part in the Kerslake Commission, Abingdon (Layla Moran) for securing this important which was UK-wide and involved charities and local debate. 127WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 128WH

[Patricia Gibson] be shared across the UK as each part of the UK works to eliminate this social scourge—this social blight. It Having somewhere to call home, somewhere to sleep does not matter where it is working. Whatever works is and somewhere we can feel safe is the very least that what matters, and we should all be sharing the best each of us should hope to secure in our lives. We all practice that we are using to tackle this issue. have a duty to work together to eradicate the scourge of Progress has been made on rough sleeping and rough sleeping. As has been said, there has been good homelessness. I am sure we all welcome the renewed progress and the pandemic prompted a renewed focus focus on that, which the pandemic prompted, but we on the issue, but of course there is always more to be must look at the fabric of our society and how we build done. A sensible, partnership approach between the a more inclusive society, so that we can envisage a time third sector,local authorities and the Scottish Government when homelessness and rough sleeping become part of meant a move away from night shelter provision and led our past. At its heart, tackling rough sleeping and to the “Ending Homelessness Together” action plan, homelessness is fundamentally about the kind of society and that work has benefited from £50 million of additional that we want to build. If tackling this issue is about funding. anything, it is about asking ourselves what kind of In Scotland, rough sleeping is at a record low and country we want to live in. Dealing with it requires frontline teams offering support to those who might concerted effort around supporting tenancies, the welfare need it, particularly during the pandemic, have done a system, and supporting families who are struggling sterling job. The priority of keeping people safe and through these times in the range of ways I have indicated. housing those with no settled home in emergency We can never be comfortable with homelessness and accommodation was a public health imperative during rough sleepers in our communities and on our streets. the pandemic, which is why the Scottish Government We must all work together to address this issue and awarded £1.5 million to third sector organisations to ensure that it is no longer part of our society; we must assist them in their work of securing accommodation envisage a future in which it does not happen. Rough for that emergency provision. However, we must continue sleepers and homelessness are hard evidence, if we need that as we move through recovery, as the hon. Member it, that our support systems have failed or are inadequate. for Oxford West and Abingdon and others who have We must have systems that are comprehensive and spoken have indicated. To that end, the Scottish flexible to assist those most at risk. Supporting people Government have launched their “Housing to 2040” in their tenancies allows them to go on to live full, strategy—a renewed commitment to ending rough sleeping productive lives and to contribute to their community. and homelessness for good. We will all be better off for that. I look forward to The emphasis must be on prevention of rough sleeping, hearing the Minister’s response on the further progress and that means that the necessary support structures we can make on co-operation across the United Kingdom, must be in place to support people in their homes. That so that we can work together to solve this. means working with third sector organisations, landlords, local authorities and a range of other services to support 3.16 pm those at risk of homelessness, for whatever reason. As Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): It is a pleasure was mentioned earlier, some of those who sleep rough to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, I may have complex needs and may require a lot of think, Ms Rees. I congratulate the hon. Member for support in a lot of ways. As a society, we have to be Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) on securing prepared to help them through that. this vital debate and speaking consistently and passionately But all that work is taking place against a much more about the need to end rough sleeping. I also praise hon. challenging background, and it would be remiss of me Members from both sides of the political divide for not to mention the policy of no recourse to public talking about the value of the third sector and volunteers, funds, which leaves some people with no access to basic whether it is Crisis, Shelter or local charities, and advocating essential services, putting those affected at real risk of the need for Housing First and making sure it is housing insecurity and homelessness. We cannot implemented using a sustainable model. I thank the underestimate the impact that removing the £20 universal hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster credit uplift will have on households who are already (Nickie Aiken) for her consistent campaigning for the struggling and teetering on the financial edge. The repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824. Of course, there will Scottish child payment is the Scottish Government’s be advocates of that in the Opposition. I look forward attempt to target support at the most financially challenged, to the Minister’s answer on that subject. but that will be wiped out by the abolition of the Before the pandemic, people sleeping rough on our universal credit uplift. I urge the Minister to use his streets was a visible sign—a shameful sign—of failure influence and good offices to encourage the United for Governments and society. That includes the many Kingdom Government to think again on that policy. people that the hon. Member for Cities of London and The freeze on local housing allowance rates from Westminster referred to. On my walk to my flat last April will push people further into poverty and increase night, I saw that visible sign: people have started to the risk of homelessness for many. The Scottish reappear, rough sleeping in alleyways and doorways. Government’s discretionary housing payment spend is After a decade of austerity before the pandemic, we around £82 million for 2021-22. That is an important have twice as many rough sleepers as we had 10 years investment used by councils to safeguard tenancies and ago; that is a fact. Tragically,976 homeless people—human prevent homelessness. Alongside that, the much-hated beings—lost their lives in 2020. bedroom tax has been fully mitigated in Scotland, helping Not having shelter and the necessary wraparound 70,000 households to sustain their tenancies, but of services that hon. Members have referred to is literally a course challenges remain. I hope that best practice will matter of life and death. The hopes and aspirations that 129WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 130WH we all share just disappear without those wraparound First, however, does not seem to be part of the services. More than 2,500 people slept rough last autumn. Government’s—or,should I say, of the Treasury’s—stated The figures cause considerable debate and give policymakers mission to “Build Back Better”. Instead, the response and service providers only a snapshot of the level of to housing during the pandemic and as we transition need at any given time. I hope the Minister can elaborate out of it seems to be a story of half measures, repeating on how the Government intend to provide more accurate mistakes similar to some of those of the past 10 years, and robust figures in the future. I know that Crisis has with the austerity to which my hon. Friend the Member been advocating for that for some time. for York Central (Rachael Maskell) referred. When covid-19 hit, the Government promised councils If I look at some of the Housing First pilots, our that they would do “whatever it takes”. Local authorities metro Mayors are leading the way, whether it is Andy were asked by Ministers to ensure that those sleeping on Burnham in Greater Manchester, Steve Rotheram in our streets or in high-risk accommodation were supported Liverpool City Region or, indeed, Andy Street. Those into safer accommodation. It seemed to take a national pilots have been successful. I declare an interest, in that and international health pandemic to gain the focused I used to work for Andy Burnham, but he talks about political will to provide shelter and tackle homelessness, an 87% tenancy sustainment rate, and Andy Street uses but I pay credit to the Government and all the supporting similar figures. I know that they have certainly been agencies in the third sector for doing so. Councils and speaking to the Minister. I hope that they help. Indeed, partners up and down the country, including in my own I hope that Treasury Ministers can see the light, and patch—Cheshire West and Chester and Halton councils— that investment in people and Housing First would should rightfully be praised for all their work in getting create an overall cost saving over time. I wish the people off the streets in extremely challenging circumstances Minister well with that argument. for us all. We need to look more at the underlying problems of Despite that work, I fear that the Government have rough sleeping. The hon. Member for Cities of London quietly started to roll back the support of the “Everyone and Westminster referred to that. There is a need for In” programme—a move highlighted by Dame Louise mobile, flexible mental health services, but of course Casey, who resigned from her post as the leader of the they have been cut, particularly in the last decade. There Government’s rough sleeping taskforce. She is the very is an interdependency there. same person who helped successfully to reduce rough We must also ensure strong investment in building sleeping under the previous Labour Government some council and housing association homes. Social house time ago. Shelter says that now almost three quarters of building has almost ground to a halt under Conservative the people helped through the “Everyone In”programme— Governments. The number of homes for social rent almost 30,000 people—have not moved into settled built in England stood at just under 6,700 in 2019-20, accommodation. Minister,we require a sustainable solution. compared with almost 40,000 in 2010-11. The Government Meanwhile, the freeze of the local housing allowance risk that figure being further reduced by the scheme that and the end of the eviction ban mean that many more provides half of those homes under their long-awaited people risk being pushed on to the streets, as workers in planning reforms, which may come somewhere down rented accommodation still relying on furlough or currently the line. The Minister, who, like me, came into politics in arrears risk losing their home. shaped by experiences in a housing association, knows Homelessness is not inevitable. The Government’s that socially owned homes provide a real foundation for manifesto stated that they had the ambition to end stability for growing families. Social housing is affordable. rough sleeping by the end of this Parliament, but the The Government’s ambition is to build 300,000 homes refusal to address some of the fundamental causes of a year—I think we built around 244,000. However, the homelessness—the interdependency of public services only time we have had a successful house building that refer to mental health services and social services, programme—way back in history,back through successive for example—means that we could be getting back to Governments—was when social housing was a fundamental business as usual, with people starting to appear back part of the mix. It was not the only element—market-led on the streets.I hope that the Minister and the Government housing always leads the way,and that should be regulated can prove me and others wrong. more effectively—but we need to step things up on social housing. Rachael Maskell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Reforming our broken private rented sector will also his speech, but does he also recognise that over the be key if the Government want to get serious and pandemic, charities have had an extremely difficult time prioritise preventing rough sleeping and homelessness. with funding? Across the board, charities have £10 billion The Government could have used the Queen’s Speech to less now than they had at the start of the pandemic. We drive through the long-awaited reforms of the private are likely to see significant cuts in local authority funding, sector and abolishing section 21. I hope that the Minister too. That is the biggest threat to the ability to resettle will confirm exactly when that will happen—the day people safely. and the month—in his response. I look forward to that reply. Mike Amesbury: My hon. Friend is exactly right I mentioned seeing, last night while walking home, about that interdependency, not only of the state, whether the visible signs of a re-emergence of people sleeping regional or local, but of charities. I am sure that the rough on our streets. It is somebody’s son, daughter, Minister will refer to it when summing up. sister,grandfather or gran huddled in a doorway,sometimes Housing and people—the hon. Member for Oxford hidden down an alley, but without a roof over their West and Abingdon referred to people being at the head to call home. The right to shelter and a good home heart of this—should come first. That should be the should be a basic human right for everybody, regardless foundation on which to build better lives. Housing of whether they have access to public funds, which was 131WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 132WH

[Mike Amesbury] the vaccine Minister. Some people said it was the first time they had seen Health and rough sleeping Ministers a point well made by the hon. Member for Cities of attending meetings together. Let us hope that in the London and Westminster. My plea to the Minister and future we develop the appreciation that homelessness the Government is to ensure that “Everyone In”continues and rough sleeping are about not just the absence of a and becomes a permanent feature of that ambition to home, but the health requirements that go with that. end rough sleeping for good. 3.28 pm Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): Not far from Shipley, in Leeds, St George’s Crypt provides crisis The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, accommodation for people rough sleeping and has built Communities and Local Government (Eddie Hughes): It a number of houses on a similar model, providing is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees, wraparound services. The houses are low carbon. It has but more importantly, it is a pleasure to see you not just been able to get assistance from the social investment at 6 o’clock in the morning at the gym, which is where I sector. What more can be done to provide asset funding am more used to seeing you. to organisations to build this sort of housing to move Christina Rees (in the Chair): Too much information people on from rough sleeping into that type of there. accommodation? Eddie Hughes: My apologies, Ms Rees. Eddie Hughes: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his I thank the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon intervention. That sounds like an innovative method of (Layla Moran) for securing the debate. We may be few providing houses. We have our flagship rough sleeping in number in Westminster Hall, given that other important accommodation programme, with the intention to provide things are going on in the Chamber, but we are all up to 6,000 new homes by the end of this Parliament. committed to the cause. Generally, this has been a Significant progress has already been made.The programme largely unpolitical debate—sometimes the hon. Member is not simply providing the capital for the homes and for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) and the the fabric of the buildings, but the support that I think SNP draw us more towards the political element of the we have all recognised is so important. We would be discussion, but perhaps that is no surprise. It feels to me kidding ourselves if we were to expect people who have that in this room we have a bunch of people who are previously had chaotic lifestyles to immediately sustain committed to this cause, regardless of political affiliation. a tenancy. That is a nice place to be. We have half an hour, and although it is not my Several Members have mentioned Housing First. The intention to use all that time, a slightly less formal hon. Member for Weaver Vale (Mike Amesbury) mentioned approach might be warranted in the discussion. For graciously the various Mayors who have been involved example, the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon in the programme. I was delighted when Andy Street mentioned Aspire in her opening speech. One of the became Mayor, as the first thing he did was to convene things I find critical in my role is that we do not make people to address homelessness and rough sleeping in services and do things to people, we do things with the west midlands. At the time, I was working for them, and an important part of that is to speak to those YMCA Birmingham, a charity supporting previously people who have experience of the rough sleeping system. homeless young people. It seemed like a really emblematic I believe 30% of Aspire staff are in that position. It is moment for him to take that lead. This is not a political incredibly important that it is not just a bunch of civil point. Andy Burnham has also done incredible work—not servants or MPs in London creating the policies, but least, I am sure, because his campaign had the political that we are making sure that we take account of the support of the hon. Member for Weaver Vale to help people on the ground who know what they are talking secure that position in the first place. To push the about. non-partisan theme, I am hoping to meet up with Andy Burnham at the Conservative party conference, of all On the issue of support at a time that works, as a places, to discuss how we might continue to work together. Minister, during the summer I had the opportunity to go out and about round the country, and I went to However, the Housing First scheme is not perfect. Fairmount Lodge in Shipley. Through the rough While I am a keen, enthusiastic supporter, I would not sleeping accommodation programme, a building that like it to be held up as a completely perfect scheme. For was originally built in the early 1900s is now converted example, there were reservations from some housing into one-bedroom and two-bedroom flats, and co-located associations over committing property to the scheme. in the building is the local support service, so that Subsequently, now that some have engaged and seen people can access care at the time they need it. There is how the scheme works, I think they are warming to it a concierge on site 24 hours a day, to protect the flow in and, after that initial delay, are coming forward with and out of the building so that inappropriate people are more properties. As it is a housing-led project, it obviously not coming in. Care and support is brought into the site needs to ensure that it has the homes before it can put from other groups, such as drug and alcohol abuse people in them and provide them with support. support organisations, so we are not sending people out Through things like a combination of the rough to appointments that we expect them to attend all the sleeping accommodation programme and the rough time. sleeping initiative, we get a good element of the same Members have mentioned the “Everyone In”programme, sort of principle. I fully appreciate that keen advocates which provided, for example, the opportunity to make of Housing First will talk about fidelity—the purism of sure that people saw dentists or GPs for the first time. its approach—but we can still achieve giving somebody We held events where I have been joined by, for example, a home and providing them with support. 133WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 134WH

Layla Moran: On the rough sleeping initiative, I to me that it feels like we have barely had the previous would seek a point of clarification, and I think that Queen’s Speech, and already the hon. Member for Weaver many council officers would also be desperate for a Vale is talking about the next one. We have reviewed the clear answer on this. Councils received letters from the Act, and are considering what action to take. We do not Government saying that, because of the rough sleeping want to get rid of an Act and find that there is an initiative, they should end all “Everyone In”programmes, unintended consequence; some useful element that we and, in particular, the use of hotels. Meanwhile, they have thrown in the bin, but which we in this room would have heard elsewhere from Government that the “Everyone not be keen on losing. In” scheme is still ongoing. With regards to long-term funding: the upcoming That has caused huge amounts of confusion, not spending review is something way above my pay grade. least in my own area in Oxford, and other councils have However, it is something that I am contributing to as also contacted me, desperate for an answer. My question somebody who has experienced the vagaries of waiting is: has “Everyone In” now stopped completely, or are for funding settlements in order to employ staff, and, councils still allowed to use money to put people in unfortunately, as someone who has even had staff leave hotels, or was that letter not saying the right thing? because they felt their position was insecure. We would all accept that, like the rest of us, the Chancellor has Eddie Hughes: I would say that “Everyone In”continues; been through a pretty dramatic 18 months. We are we still have people who are in emergency accommodation. moving into a more settled position thanks to the However, we also need to appreciate that “Everyone In” success of the vaccine rollout, and the economy seems is not a sustainable approach. It was fantastic that, to be getting back on its feet. Hopefully, the Chancellor during the height of a pandemic, we were able to move feels suitably reassured and is able to give us a couple of people into emergency accommodation, but the type of years’ funding to provide that certainty. accommodation that many of those people were moved With regards to a refreshed strategy, I am delighted into is, by its very nature, not something we would to have spent a considerable amount of time discussing expect people to stay in for a sustained period. with Ministers in other Departments what they need to I make no apology for constantly referring to my contribute to help us reach the ambition of ending time with YMCA, but we would have had a range of rough sleeping during the lifetime of this Parliament. accommodation. With off-the-street accommodation, We have seen some fantastic schemes, such as work we had a 72-bed hostel, but would then move people done with the Ministry of Justice on the accommodation through a system where they were supported in and settlement of prisoners when they come out of accommodation until, eventually, they were in a position prison—a very delicate time to ensure that they do not to perhaps gain employment and support a tenancy on automatically reoffend and go back in. their own. We still have people in emergency accommodation; I Patricia Gibson: In the interests of working together do not think that councils will be pressured to get and learning from one another—which is very important people out because, for some reason, it is coming to an on an issue like this—regarding the Minister’s end. The pressuring we are doing over moving people understandable comments about the unintended on is around moving them to more stable, permanent consequences of the abolition of the Vagrancy Act, he accommodation, which is appropriate to their needs. may wish to look at the Scottish example. This Act has been abolished in Scotland for decades. He may wish to Layla Moran: The problem with the step process, look at how that has worked, and see if it can be applied though, is that those people who do not want to go into to England. a hostel do not get on to that first step, and therefore remain on the street. In light of that, what steps can the Eddie Hughes: I thank the hon. Lady for that Minister take to try to encourage local authorities—or intervention. Under no circumstances do this Government even provide for local authorities—to release housing have a monopoly on good ideas, so I will be happy to for Housing First? have a look at that. Eddie Hughes: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention, but I would suggest that the question is Rachael Maskell: The Minister has raised the issue of slightly more nuanced. If, for the sake of argument, I people leaving the criminal justice system. I have been was running a hostel that people did not want to come particularly concerned that many of the reasons why into, I would be questioning why that was the case. As I women, in particular, end up in the criminal justice have moved around the country, I have seen excellent system are due to the fact that they have been exploited examples of accommodation which people feel is safer, on the streets, and they do not have a safe base. Within more secure and more appropriate than sleeping on the his programme, would he look at some of those issues street. If the hon. Lady has examples of hostels where so that we see a more preventive programme in place to she thinks that people do not feel that degree of comfort, protect women? I would be happy to work with her and look at that with my team. We should be ensuring that all accommodation Eddie Hughes: I thank the hon. Lady for that of this type,for particularly vulnerable people,is appropriate. intervention. I have had some discussions with the To run through some of the other things the hon. former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member Member for Oxford West and Abingdon said regarding for Maidenhead (Mrs May), on this subject. It is a scrapping the Vagrancy Act, my hon. Friend the Member theme that I will continue to come back to. for Cities of London and Westminster reminded us My hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye what the Secretary of State said previously: we do have (Sally-Ann Hart) touched on a theme that is incredibly quite a busy legislative programme. It is almost amusing important: it is not just about the Government doing 135WH Rough Sleeping 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Rough Sleeping 136WH

[Eddie Hughes] them to reconnect with family and friends in their country of origin is an appropriate solution to the stuff. There are an awful lot of organisations in this problem, and we have done that in some cases. field—sometimes they are almost bumping into one I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate another. The idea that she might convene those people today. It has felt warm and non-partisan, and I am sure to secure a collective aim, so that they are all working our collective discussions will continue in the months together efficiently and effectively,is an incredibly important and years ahead. With regard to the point made during one. She also touched on the problems of family and the opening speech about this Government’s commitment relationship breakdown; one of the areas for which I to end rough sleeping, it is clearly absolute. We are am responsible as a Minister is the Supporting Families committing significant resources to it and working incredibly programme, for which I am an incredible enthusiast and hard, with experts and councils and councillors up and advocate. During the summer I have seen councils putting down the country. I think that our collective effort will that programme into action across the country. Early help us to achieve that goal. interventions to support people who are experiencing multiple difficulties, trying to ensure that the family 3.48 pm stays stable, provide an incredibly important contribution. Going back to York Central, the charities there are Layla Moran: First, I warmly thank all hon. Members outstanding. Having worked for one, I fully appreciate who have contributed to the debate today. As many the work they do, and I admire and respect the work have said, and as I know, there are other Members of that the hon. Member for York Central does in this the House in all political parties who feel as strongly as field. We have seen some incredible work, such as the we do. I agree with the Minister that there is not a paper transformation fund, which is money we have given to between us on where we want to end up; however, there charities so they can transform their provision. It sometimes is a genuine debate to be had about how we get there. seems to be the most efficient spend, because for small The support for Housing First is welcome, but equally charities, every pound counts, so when they get some welcome is the Minister’s acceptance that nothing is money from the Government they make sure they spend perfect, nothing is a panacea. In some parts of the it effectively. Amen to the charity field. country—in the south-east, for example, where there I am looking forward to going out for a walk around are only 255 Housing First places—we need to work the streets with my hon. Friend the Member for Cities out how we can unlock that housing. I am genuinely of London and Westminster, or “TwoCitiesNickie” as I concerned about the planning Bill and the impact it will think of her because of her Twitter handle, although have on councils’ ability to deliver the policy. It feels a I appreciate that is inappropriate here. We will be going little like one hand of the Government does not know out to have a look around. Strangely, I thought I what the other is doing. We need to make sure the completely understood the rough sleeping sector and actions are joined up. I have other concerns about the those who provided support, but my view was from the planning Bill—that is just one of them—but they are west midlands. Then I came down to London. My hon. not a matter for this debate. Friend represents an area that has three times as many Regarding the Vagrancy Act, I thank the hon. Member rough sleepers as the next two boroughs in the list. That for Cities of London and Westminster (Nickie Aiken) gives us a keen appreciation of the problem. It has been for the work that she and others do on that. I am a real pleasure for me to benefit from her experience hopeful that we will get a positive result in the next few and to visit organisations such as the Passage with her years, but—to push the Minister gently on this—I do to see the excellent work that they do. I am looking not believe that new legislation is needed. The example forward to going out with her next week at night for a from Scotland and the legal advice obtained by Crisis look around so that I can understand first-hand the and others show that there is already provision in law, service provision available. and in large swathes of the country local police have I am very happy to learn from whatever is going on in decided not to use the Vagrancy Act at all. That shows Scotland. It is great to hear about the success that there that already in England the Act is not needed. I understand has been—prevention is key, clearly. I want to touch on the precautionary principle, but it has been proved that a couple of points that the hon. Member for North we do not need it, so just get rid of it. Ayrshire and Arran mentioned. No recourse to public I will end by asking the Minister for a favour. I funds sometimes can be a catch-all phrase that does not mentioned that trust is an important part of this work. apply to the people we are talking about. During the An innovative charity,the MaydayTrust, which I mentioned summer I visited other organisations, and saw people in a few times, has come up with a programme that I London, for example, who employ their own solicitor to genuinely believe is the answer to that final 10% we have help people regularise their immigration status and then been talking about today. Will he consider meeting me secure funds. I appreciate that sometimes navigating and the trust, so that we showcase that important work? that system is not easy—it is complex, which is why the Question put and agreed to. Home Office is offering surgeries to help people navigate Resolved, their way through what can be a very difficult process. I would also make a minor political point: sometimes, it That this House has considered ending rough sleeping. is impossible for us to regularise people’s immigration status, and sometimes they do not have the support 3.51 pm networks they would need in this country, so helping Sitting suspended. 137WH 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 British Council 138WH

British Council used to subsidise its other work, which is otherwise funded by Government grants. Have the Government 4 pm tried to help? Yes and no. An immediate shortfall in Christina Rees (in the Chair): Before we begin, I funding was met through an additional non-official encourage Members to wear masks when they are not development assistance grant of £26 million, which was speaking, in line with current Government guidance very welcome. What was less welcome for the British and that of the House of Commons Commission. Please Council was that most of the additional grant was give each other and members of staff space when seated counterbalanced by a cut in ODA grant funds of £80 and when entering and leaving the room. Members million. It is quite literally giving with one hand and should send their speaking notes by email to taking away with the other. [email protected]. Similarly, officials should communicate electronically with Ministers. Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD): I Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): I beg to congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important move, debate. Would she agree that, especially since the broken manifesto pledge on 0.7%, we are beginning to see that That this House has considered British Council closures. this Government’s actions do not match their words? It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, When the Government say they want to be a world Ms Rees. The British Council is the oldest and, for a superpower, this example of the British Council funding long time, one of the most important cultural institutions is yet another proof point that what they say and mean in the world. It has had and continues to have enormous is not what they do? influence. I am sure the Minister knows this, and I do not want to use my time to give him a history lesson. However, we are having this debate because the Foreign, Wendy Chamberlain: I thank my hon. Friend for her Commonwealth and Development Office seems to have intervention. Yes, I agree. I would argue that the integrated forgotten about the British Council’s value with its review was published at the start of the year and that refusal to provide financial support, so I will briefly work was ongoing, but the decision on the Department remind him of the British Council’s initial purpose. for International Development was taken before that Founded in 1934, the British Council was created in review was published. That, alongside the cuts to the response to a changing global stage: the United Kingdom British Council, demonstrates that the Government are was losing its traditional forms of influence, extreme not aligned with the view of global Britain seen by my ideologies were on the rise around the world and there hon Friend, myself and others. was a global economic crisis. Those problems may not A series of loans has also been agreed, but on commercial sound unfamiliar to the Minister and others here today terms, requiring the British Council to submit business as he and his Cabinet colleagues seek to re-establish the plans to be agreed by the FCDO. Ordinarily, as we UK as a global power outside the EU, respond to know, the British Council is incredibly economically extreme ideologies at home and abroad, as we have successful, but the reality is that the loans have been devastatingly seen over the last few weeks, and tackle needed to fill a hole made by the pandemic. Business the economic and social implications of the pandemic operations are not currently normal. None the less, and the climate crisis. Clearly, the British Council remains business plans were submitted and in effect the loans as relevant today as it has ever been. If the Minister became contingent on cost-saving measures that needed disagrees, I will be interested in hearing him explain that to be put in place. What do cost savings and less income later. mean? That does not promise a strong British Council This Government like to talk about us being a global presence in 100 countries. It is not a bolstering of our Britain. In fact, the integrated review of security, defence, soft power presence. It means cuts to services and development and foreign policy earlier this year was staffing—I met some staff online earlier this week—and named “Global Britain in a Competitive Age”. In the cuts to Britain’s presence around the world. review, we were told the UK would become one of the Already we have seen office closures, with more to most influential countries in the world, and a key aspect follow in coming years. Closures span the world from of this is our role as a soft superpower. The review Belgium to the United States and from Australia to explicitly highlighted the important work of none other South Sudan. They include all the Five Eyes countries. than the British Council, noting that it In other countries, cuts mean there will be no staff, with “operates in over 100 countries”. operations happening remotely. The problem is that the British Council does not. It just cannot. Why? Because, frankly, the Government have Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op): I thank prevented it from doing so. the hon. Member for securing this crucial debate. I Like many organisations, the British Council has chair the all-party parliamentary groups on Kosovo, suffered during the pandemic as its commercial operations, North Macedonia and Montenegro. All those countries which usually provide most of its income, have been face British Council closures. The programmes that severely hit. As of July, teaching revenues were back to they run are vital to those countries. The Prime Minister only about 50% of pre-pandemic levels, representing a of Montenegro came here in July and met me in Parliament. loss of hundreds of millions of pounds over the course We talked about the importance of the British Council of the year. It is predicted that income from commercial in development work in Montenegro and about the operations will not be back to pre-pandemic levels until bilateral exchange. Without that, and with the office 2023. That is absolutely devastating. moving to Belgrade, development and our work in vital In a usual year, the British Council can provide an Balkan countries that are in that phase of development income of several million pounds more than it needs to will be severely impacted on. Britain will lose out in our run its commercial activities, and that surplus is effectively relationship with them. 139WH British Council 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 British Council 140WH

Wendy Chamberlain: I thank the hon. Member for his Soft power is important. My colleagues and I see the contribution and for his work with the all-party groups, benefits of the UK’s being trusted and respected around which are important as they are cross-party. Criticisms the world. Our education system is outstanding, and we of the Government’s British Council closures come not want international students to come and benefit from it. only from the Opposition Benches, but from across I want students from around the world to come to the Parliament. In relation to the Balkans, the British Council University of St Andrews in my North East Fife is a part of how we demonstrate to our European constituency. The British Council helps to support that friends and neighbours that we want to continue in a aim, engaging with the Turing and Erasmus programmes, close partnership despite having left the EU, which I science, technology, engineering and mathematics and many other Members disagree with. scholarships, technical placements and assistance with Devastating cuts have already been made. The choices applications. have been made by the Minister and his staff. The cuts Those students bring countless benefits to us at a are the result of cutting ODA spending, a policy hated local level, not only to our local economic circumstances, across the country that my hon. Friend the Member for but with their experiences and knowledge. Speaking as Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) referred to, a member of the Scottish Affairs Committee, we should and hated across this House, as I mentioned, including remember the importance that international students in the Minister’s own party. Perhaps, this is the inevitable have in Scotland in particular, which we picked up in outcome of merging the Department for International our inquiry. Their fees are no doubt part of that. Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Tourism contributes £106 billion to the British economy which is something we warned about last year. That was and supports 2.6 million jobs. We cannot recover without also done in the name of cost savings, but it is as yet it, particularly in North East Fife, so we need to encourage unclear whether any savings have been made from that visitors to our shores. Despite current temperatures, I decision. Perhaps the Minister will let us know when am yet to meet a tourist who says they came to the UK information on the merger will be made available. for the good weather. People come for our history and I understand there is also an expectation at the Treasury to experience our culture. They go to Stratford to learn that all Departments will have to reduce their spending about Shakespeare, they go to the pub just about anywhere, by 5% at the next review. The British Council has they want to experience our vibrant arts and theatres already gone through so much hardship, has already and, at least in North East Fife, they definitely want to had to agree to a reduction in spending of more than have a round of golf. Of course, all those good things £185 million over the next five years, and is already exist independently of the British Council, but its presence looking at making 20% of its staff redundant here in around the world, teaching English, sharing our culture the UK and across the world. Further cuts will put and demonstrating that we are an open and welcoming pressure on the future of the British Council itself. Will nation, plays a significant role. the Minister provide reassurance that he will fight to We also need trade deals. We need to export our maintain his Department’s budget, and will he consider goods and services, be it Scotch whisky or cutting-edge ring-fencing the current level of grant funding that the science, technology, engineering and maths knowledge, British Council receives? but what country is going to make a trade deal with a Our soft power is rooted in who we are as a country. country it does not trust? What does it say to the It is central to our international identity, and its strength countries we want to work and trade with if we turn our cannot be taken for granted. Those are not my words, backs on them and withdraw our institutional presence? but those of the Government’s own integrated review, What does it say about our commitment to tackling published just months ago. It is absolutely remarkable climate change if, as reported today, this Government that the Government pay lip service to the importance are considering doing away with agreements around of the British Council while simultaneously undermining climate change when they look at trade deals, such as it. I urge the Minister to address that in his speech. that with Australia? Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): I The biggest challenges we face today do not affect us congratulate the hon. Member on securing this debate. alone and cannot be solved by us alone. We face a She was in a meeting online this week with me and climate crisis; we face a growth in extreme ideologies members of the Public and Commercial Services Union. around the world. The world is a less safe, less stable I should refer Members to my entry in the Register of and less prosperous place, and retreating solves nothing. Members’ Financial Interests. Is she as concerned as I For better or worse, we have already retreated from the am that the business plan is going forward and the European Union—I firmly believe it is for the worse—but whole redundancy exercise is being done in secret? We we still need to work together to respond to global really need a bit more disclosure, and we need more health crises, to house and support refugees coming parliamentary scrutiny as to how the restructuring is from Syria, Afghanistan and other places, to tackle being carried out. cross-border crime and terrorism, and to make the shifts required to respond to the climate crisis. Wendy Chamberlain: I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I was pleased to join him earlier this week. Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): I was One thing that struck me from the meeting was the approached by constituents concerned about the lack of longevity of some of the staff there, how long they had clarity on plans for the evacuation of British Council worked for the British Council, their passion and dedication employees from Afghanistan, and I wrote to the Home and how the current actions and what was happening Office, the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence. were undermining how they felt about their organisation. I received responses from the Home Office and the I agree that it is very important that we have a degree of MOD but, despite the Foreign Office’sbeing the sponsoring transparency, particularly for a non-departmental public Department for the British Council, I did not receive a body such as the British Council. response from it; I still have not. The clear advice from 141WH British Council 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 British Council 142WH the MOD, however, was that British Council staff were educational opportunities and cultural relationships. It not eligible for the Afghan relocations and assistance is an arm’s length body of the Foreign, Commonwealth policy scheme. In the main Chamber on Monday, the and Development Office. It has a core mission to promote Foreign Secretary questioned whether that was really English-language education, arts and culture across the the case. Nobody has a clue what is going on. Does the globe, and it does a fantastic job of that. It delivers key hon. Lady agree that that is shoddy treatment of British soft-power benefits to the United Kingdom, and it is a Council employees in Afghanistan, and that the crucial part of our overseas presence, operating in over Government need to think again—and quickly? 100 countries. The British Council’s own figures show that, in 2019-20, it reached 983 million people. Wendy Chamberlain: I absolutely agree. To hear that We recognise the British Council’s considerable British Council employees are not considered eligible contribution to promoting our influence and values for the ARAP programme is devastating. Not only that, overseas. It is important to acknowledge, however, the but I understand that the MOD and Government guidance devastating impact of the covid pandemic on British to those nationals who could not be evacuated from Council operations. As the chairman has said a number Kabul airport has been that they should make their way of times, the organisation went from producing almost to third countries. We know that in Iran, for example, £1 billion of revenue to producing virtually zero overnight. the British Council is a proscribed organisation. I am It takes a lot to recover from that. sure there will be contractors who have worked for the At the peak of the pandemic, over 90% of the British British Council making their way there who have no Council’s teaching and exam centres were forced to knowledge of that proscribed status and who could find close. The hon. Lady referred to the fact that we have themselves in very difficult circumstances, were they to provided the council with additional financial support make it across the border. in an extremely challenging fiscal climate. We are facing We need to restore our ties with countries in the EU, the worst economic contraction in over 300 years and a both for relations between ourselves and to act together budget deficit of close to £400 billion. However, to elsewhere. Rebuilding trust, using our soft power and, depart slightly from the bonhomie, I politely suggest in fact, doing all those things that the British Council that the hon. Lady’s remark that we were refusing to does are key to that. It is staggering to hear the Prime provide financial support to the British Council is frankly, Minister talk as he does of his “global Britain”ambitions. on every level, inaccurate. Despite these unprecedented I am not sure whether he has read his own review, economic circumstances,we have allocated over £600 million because again and again, be it on girls’ education, which to the council since the pandemic hit. The hon. Lady has seen cuts of up to 40%, the BBC, which is continually may not be aware of that figure. undermined, or the British Council, it seems this Government are more concerned with eroding the sources Chris Stephens: I thank the Minister for giving way. of our soft power than with strengthening them. Global Can he tell us today what the conditions are for that Britain needs the British Council. It is extremely short- £600 million in terms of loans? sighted to require such drastic cuts to be made to it now, in response to an extreme event, when its long-term Nigel Adams: I can certainly go into some more detail presence is so valuable to our standing in the world. on the financial settlement. It included a 2021-22 spending review settlement, in 2020, that totalled £189 million. I would be remiss—I thank the hon. Member for That is a 27% increase. Furthermore, £150 million of East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald)—if I did not use the settlement is composed of ODA, while the non-ODA this opportunity to acknowledge the work done by allocation of £39 million is triple that of the 2020-21 British Council staff in response to the situation in baseline. In addition to the settlement, we are providing Afghanistan. I understand that all directly employed loan support, which the hon. Member for North East staff and contractors are now out of the country—that Fife referenced. That is up to £245 million and includes might be news to the hon. Member—but that a decision a £100 million loan to support restructuring efforts and will shortly be made about previous contractors. I know to rebuild commercial surpluses. that staff at the British Council have been working around the clock to provide assistance, and I thank Chris Stephens: Will the Minister give way? them for that. Can the Minister, as previously requested, provide an update about the status of this group, their Nigel Adams: I will come on to the point made by the eligibility for ARAP—because if our understanding is hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens). correct, and they are not eligible, that is very concerning— The hon. Member for North East Fife suggested that and what assistance will be provided to them and others the British Council had to provide a business plan to in reaching the UK via third countries? secure a loan. I am not entirely sure that a business plan requirement is a particularly heinous thing to ask of the 4.15 pm British Council. I would be grateful if any hon. Members could point me to a bank or any lender that would The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams): I thank the hon. provide a loan without at least politely asking what that Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) for money would be used for. We worked very closely with securing this important debate on the British Council’s the management and board of the British Council to global presence. I will take my mask off; that would come to this arrangement on the loans. We have worked probably help. I am grateful for the interventions of very hard with them; they have done an incredible other hon. Members. I am also conscious that I need to amount of work, and I pay tribute to Stevie Spring, the give the hon. Lady a couple of minutes, if she would leadership and the interim chief executive. like that, to sum up. The hon. Lady has already said that the British Chris Stephens: I thank the Minister; he is being very Council plays an absolutely crucial role as one of the generous. There are problems with the restructuring, UK’s international organisations for cultural and and the outcome is that some of the industrial relations 143WH British Council 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 British Council 144WH

[Chris Stephens] rapidly expanding its digital services in response to the covid crisis. As an example, a year after the pandemic from the British Council need to be improved. Is the forced us into lockdown last March, there were over Minister’sDepartment scrutinising how the British Council 80,000 students learning English online with the British is carrying out the restructuring? Would he be prepared Council. There were nearly 10 million visitors recorded to meet me and PCS representatives to hear our concerns? across its online English language platforms, which is an incredibly impressive transformation in a short time. Nigel Adams: I am more than happy to meet the hon. The British Council has also continued to deliver its Gentleman or any hon. Member here today to discuss excellent cultural programmes and events digitally during the British Council. We discussed it in the main Chamber the pandemic. It launched its Culture Connects Us quite recently, and I am more than happy to do so programme—a digital online campaign about the value again. Members are very welcome to come into the of culture for international connections and exchange. I FCDO and meet me and our soft-power team, who personally had the pleasure of taking part in an online work incredibly closely with the British Council. Clearly, session with leading figures from the UK and Japanese changes such as staffing are operational matters for the cultural sectors as part of the UK and Japan season council itself. We understand that it is working incredibly that the British Council headed up. hard to restore its commercial operations and to maximise There is no doubt that the British Council can maintain its revenues. It is a particularly difficult time. impact through digital delivery. I understand what the While we have had to make difficult decisions across hon. Member for North East Fife says, but we will all Departments and in other areas, we are increasing continue to support the council to invest in this area. It the money we are providing to the British Council. has a proven track record now of maintaining impact Never has there been a clearer endorsement by the through digital delivery. We are confident that investing Government of the British Council and the important further in that will serve to enhance its offer. soft-power role it plays. However, the unprecedented The changes to its presence are necessarily accompanied impact of the pandemic has forced the Government to by further measures to streamline and enhance the take tough but necessary decisions about the British council’s governance structures. We have agreed with Council’s global presence. It has reinforced the need for the council a new set of key performance indicators and the council to do more to adapt to a changing world. As targets, and measures to update the council’s charitable the interim chief executive of the British Council said at objectives to focus on its core mission. I am delighted the time, the British Council will stop spending grant-in-aid that Scott McDonald, who I met online prior to funding in 11 countries and will deliver grant-in-aid appointment and have since met physically, has now programming through offices for a further nine countries. taken up his role as chief executive of the British Let me re-emphasise that decisions on presence were Council. I have no doubt that he, alongside the exceptional taken only after a thorough assessment alongside the chairman, Stevie Spring, will provide the strong leadership British Council of how the council’s priorities link with needed to put the British Council on a steady footing the Government’s foreign policy objective, as set out in for the future. the IR, as well as how the British Council can achieve the I am conscious that we are nearly at the two-minute greatest impact. stage, Ms Rees.Tosummarise, we are absolutely committed In the debate in the main Chamber, some said that to ensuring the future success of the British Council. the British Council can make a meaningful impact only We have provided a strong rescue and reform package with an office in-country. That, frankly, is incorrect. I to support it through the pandemic and to enhance its said in June that it would be a strategic mistake to judge governance structure. It is important that the British the impact of the British Council in a digital world by Council can make the most impact in a changing world. its physical presence. This crisis—the pandemic—has It will continue to operate in over 100 countries and the changed the way we all operate, and the British Council FCDO will ensure that it can continue to play a leading has done an excellent job. role in promoting UK soft power and all our integrated objectives. Wendy Chamberlain: We returned to Westminster this week and to business as usual—in 2019, when I was Christina Rees (in the Chair): Unfortunately,in 30-minute elected as an MP, I did not really know what normal debates the Member in charge does not have two minutes was—and I am sure everybody here has really benefitted at the end to respond. I am sorry for the disappointment. from a physical presence. I absolutely understand that the British Council needs to look at different ways of delivering its services, but does the Minister agree that Wendy Chamberlain: It is my first Westminster Hall sometimes you absolutely cannot beat face-to-face contact debate. and being there physically? Nigel Adams: The hon. Lady could make a two-minute Nigel Adams: I do. In an ideal world, that is the case, intervention. but there are services that can be delivered digitally. Since the pandemic, the British Council has done a Christina Rees (in the Chair): I will put the question. brilliant job of turning around its business model. It is Question put and agreed to. 145WH 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 146WH

Plastic Waste suggestions, such as better education on how to recycle and the need to do so; more consistency in approaches across local authorities, with many citing confusion 4.30 pm when moving from one area to another; preventing Christina Rees (in the Chair): Before we begin, can I recyclable materials from being sent abroad; and introducing encourage Members to wear masks when they are not deposit return schemes. I will go into that later. speaking? That is in line with current Government After the three or four debates about incinerators guidance and that of the House of Commons Commission. that I have held in this place, the Minister will know Please also give each other and members of staff space about my passion to ensure that they are properly regulated. when seated and when entering and leaving the room. When one opened in my constituency, on a visit there I Members should send their speaking notes by email to witnessed recyclable waste being put into the incinerator. [email protected]. Similarly, officials should I know the Minister is well aware of my interest. communicate electronically with Ministers. I call Elliot The second question asked what steps should be Colburn to move the motion. taken to reduce the amount of plastic waste being Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con): I produced in the first place. Suggestions included banning beg to move, single-use plastics, especially for food products; using That this House has considered reducing plastic waste. incentives, legislation or both to assist transition away It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, from plastic packaging; and holding businesses accountable Ms Rees, and a pleasure to be back in a fairly busy for the plastic that they produce. What stood out for me Westminster Hall. Thank you to all colleagues for expressing in that question was the word “reduce”. We often speak an interest in today’s debate. I would also like to thank about recycling and reusing, both of which are, of the many organisations and charities that have, I am course, much better than landfill and incineration. sure, been in touch with all right hon. and hon. Members Nevertheless, we must remember that at the peak of the to prepare briefings, particularly the Conservative waste hierarchy, the best thing that we can do is reduce Environment Network. the amount of waste that we produce in the first place, Reducing plastic waste is a mammoth topic to tackle. so that must be our aim. I fear our short time today will allow us only to scratch Finally, people were asked about how we can use the surface. I would like to begin by outlining why this is technology to reduce the amount of plastic that is such an important issue to discuss. It is a topic often produced and to deal with the plastic that is within the raised with me by residents of Carshalton and Wallington. circular economy at the moment. Suggestions included I am sure colleagues here todaywill share similar experiences using technology to find alternatives to plastics, particularly from their constituencies. I had the pleasure of visiting when it comes to packaging; investing in technologies Culvers House primary school in Hackbridge recently such as biodegradable or compostable plastic; new after pupils had written to me about plastic pollution technologies to look at labelling, in order to track the and why they were so passionate about it. They thought life cycle of plastics and use that as an education more could and should be done. I am very grateful for technique; and using plastics in more innovative ways their insight. for house building, roads, pavements or construction— We all know the harm that the scourge of plastic images from around the world that I am sure many pollution causes our environment, but it is worth going colleagues have seen before. Indeed, it has been a pleasure over some of the numbers, because they make stark for me to meet many businesses, charities and organisations reading. Plastic waste in the UK continues to grow, with that are looking at developing new technologies or that more than half of all plastics ever manufactured being have such technologies, which they are trying to use as a made in the past 15 years. An estimated 5 million tonnes way to deal with this issue. Although there is no silver are used every year, nearly half of that being packaging bullet, and I am sure that everyone would agree that alone. Plastic waste harms our natural environment if it there is no one solution or one thing that we can offer, is not recycled, lasting centuries in landfill or, if discarded the new technologies out there certainly give us a chance as litter, polluting our oceans, rivers and soils, and the to make a considerable impact. creatures that rely on them. Plastic production and waste contribute to climate Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): Like change. Current projections show that, if the strong me, the hon. Member was, and presumably still is, a growth of plastic usage continues as expected, emissions councillor. Between 2010, when I was a councillor in of greenhouse gases by the global plastic sector will Camden, and the start of the pandemic, there were account for 15% of the entire global annual carbon £16 billion-worth of cuts to local government, and the budget by 2050. Again, that barely scratches the surface Environment Agency saw its Government funding slashed of the scale of the issue, but it gives an indication of the by nearly two thirds. The direct result of that underfunding challenge we face and the action that must be taken. is that councils have struggled to deal with plastic waste I want to say a big thank you to the Chamber effectively, and there has not been enough monitoring engagement team at the House of Commons for their and enforcement of the rules. As a fellow Member of amazing work in engaging with the public ahead of Parliament and a current councillor, does the hon. today’s debate to find out people’s priorities. I thank the Member agree that reducing plastic waste relies on local more than 500 people who took part in that survey. I councils and bodies such as the Environment Agency will go over some of the headline figures that came out having the resources that they need to do so? of that piece of work. People were asked what measures should be taken to Elliot Colburn: I am grateful to the hon. Member for ensure that plastic waste is recycled, rather than sent to that question, and she raises a very important point. landfill or incinerators. Respondents came back with many The only thing I would observe is that some councils are 147WH Plastic Waste 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 148WH

[Elliot Colburn] measures, and I remember a measure that was introduced by the coalition Government: the plastic bag tax. He doing incredibly good work and increasing their recycling was talking a moment ago about personal responsibility. rates, and they all face similar pressures. I am sure she Will he urge the Minister to increase the plastic bag levy will go more into her argument in her speech, and I to encourage people to take greater responsibility in thank her for her contribution. their shopping habits? I thank the people who shared their views and information and engaged with the Commons Chamber Elliot Colburn: The 95% cut figure is proof of the engagement team in advance of the debate, because success of the plastic bag tax. It has obviously worked, what has come out loud and clear is the call for action so I urge the Minister to do as my hon. Friend suggests. on tackling plastic waste. Indeed, action is being taken. I have a strange sense of déjà vu here. The hon. There are things that I want to acknowledge, and some Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) measures that I want to praise before I go any further, mentioned my time as a councillor. Indeed, this was the such as the restriction on supplies of plastic straws, first topic I ever spoke about as a councillor, when we stirrers and cotton buds, and the ban on microbeads. I were discussing it during a full council motion almost welcome the consultation that is coming this autumn on three years ago. The point I made then still stands: banning more single-use plastic items,and the Government’s without buy-in from people at large, with all of us commitment to prevent all avoidable plastic by the end playing our part, lasting change will be difficult. Those of 2042. I welcome the requirement for large retailers survey responses from members of the public point to to charge 10p for a single-use plastic carrier bag. The some really important things that need to be done, 95% reduction in the use of plastic bag sales since 2015 particularly on education and ensuring that transitions is very welcome indeed. and changes are as simple possible for people to make. I welcome the measures in the Environment Bill, such Later this year, I hope to do my part in that by hosting a as putting charges on single-use plastic items, ensuring local event to coincide with COP26, during which I that producers take greater responsibility for their waste, hope to have a session on the changes we can make right establishing consistent approaches to recycling across here, right now to reduce the amount of plastic waste England, tackling waste crime, enforcing litter offences, that we contribute. and delivering on the manifesto pledge to ban the The central message I will leave behind is the need to export of polluting plastic to non-OECD countries, look at the circular economy and always keep one eye among many others. I welcome the plastic packaging fixed sharply on the top of that waste hierarchy. If that tax, which will come into force from April 2022, and the is done right, we can bring businesses and individuals fact that we are leading the Commonwealth in fighting along with us—not as some kind of burden or punitive against marine plastic pollution through the Blue Planet measure, but as a positive contribution to our environment, Fund. Those are very welcome measures, but there is to the world that we live in, and to the creatures with always more that can and should be done to tackle this which we share it. huge issue. Something that I would pick out immediately is the push for an all-in deposit return scheme, which Christina Rees (in the Chair): I will move to wind-ups would capture up to three times more plastic than an at 5.8 pm, so you will probably have about four minutes on-the-go system does. each, but I might have to reduce that. I call Geraint Davies.

Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. He 4.42 pm refers to the deposit return scheme, which we hope will Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Thank be introduced in the next couple of years. Does he have you, Ms Rees. It is good to switch places—I was in any thoughts about the possibility of a novel solution the Chair this morning. I thank the hon. Member for using digital technology—for instance, to capture the Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) for bringing plastic crisp wrappers that litter our streets and countryside? the debate on this enormously important matter to the Chamber. Elliot Colburn: I thank my hon. Friend for his People may know that the United Nations predicted intervention. That is an incredibly important thing, that by 2050, there would be more plastic in the sea than which the Government should definitely look at, and I fish. The problem we face is that plastic is simply too urge the Minister to take that away. The deposit return cheap, which is why it is thrown away. The reason for scheme described applies only to plastic bottles, and we that is essentially that 6.5% of global GDP is used to know that there are opportunities and examples from subsidise fossil fuels, creating cheap plastic. China is around the world of where that can be expanded to now putting more subsidy into fossil fuels than the include much more, so that is definitely something that United States, the EU and Russia combined, which should be looked at. means plastic is too cheap. It is incumbent on us to take Although it is important that the Government take leadership to reduce subsidies and to tax plastic so that action and that businesses take on more responsibility, the price goes up. We know from simple taxes such as old habits die hard, as the saying goes, and our biggest the carrier bag tax that that has an effective impact on challenge is potentially changing our own individual behaviour. It is all very well preaching that people behaviour. should use less plastic, but people need fiscal drivers to make the change. Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) Meanwhile, the landfill tax is significant, and although (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the I would not argue against that, local authorities have debate on this important issue. He has outlined many been driven towards building more and more incinerators. 149WH Plastic Waste 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 150WH

I will be involved in a meeting next week—possibly with dealing with litter and household waste, so I would the Minister—about the Edmonton incinerator, which argue that the bulk of the proceeds of extended producer generates 700,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year at a responsibility should be used to help councils keep our time when 85% of the plastic that Camden throws away streets cleaner and to ensure that more of our household is recyclable. We need a carbon tax, and although one is waste is recycled. coming for plastic made of less than 30% recyclate, we A second key proposal in the Bill is the deposit return should do better than that. Indeed, the tax itself will be scheme for drink containers. In its 25-year plan for the £200 per tonne, compared with the EU tax of £685 per environment, the Department for Environment, Food tonne. and Rural Affairs points out: We need to drive up those costs to switch producers “Millions of single-use bottles jostle their way around the and consumers. Frankly, if I went to Costa Coffee and oceans, carried on the currents even to the remotest and most could get a cheaper coffee in a china cup than in a fragile Pacific atolls.” takeaway cup, I would stay indoors to drink it. We need I appeal to the Minister, as I have done on previous to think carefully about that and take tough action. It is occasions, to make progress as quickly as possible on all very well having a 25-year environment plan, but both EPR and the DRS, given the urgency of the that is simply too long to wait. The Government’s target situation and the impact of these drink containers. is for zero avoidable plastic waste by 2042, and for zero Lastly,I turn briefly to the subject of oxo-biodegradable avoidable waste generally by 2050. Yet on current projections plastic. I have been briefed by Symphony Environmental, we know that by 2025 we will have breached the Paris which is an export success story and employs a number 1.5° threshold ambition to address climate change. Plastic of my constituents. It considers that policy makers both waste is generating incineration waste, which is causing here and in the EU are not basing their approach to massive problems in terms of emissions, and that is in oxo-biodegradable plastic on the scientific evidence. It addition to the waste in our oceans. Alongside that strongly denies, for instance, that its d2w product emits there is a lot of evidence that these fumes do not just microplastic when it breaks down. I ask the Minister to change the climate but affect people’s health, because engage with Symphony Environmental and consider ultrafine particulates breach the filters. the research it cites—for example, from the Laboratory In a nutshell, I am calling on the Government to up of Microbial Oceanography in France—before taking a their game in terms of taxation, timing, enforceable decision on whether to introduce the ban envisaged in targets and the deposit return scheme, and to let businesses article 5 of the EU single-use plastic directive. and consumers know that the cost of plastic will go up Weneed to reassess our attitude to plastic fundamentally in the future and that the best advice, in terms of their if we are to deal with the appalling damage it can do to pocket and of climate sustainability and the local our oceans, and the eyesore it can create in our streets environment, is to look at other forms of packaging and parks if it is thrown away irresponsibly. We need to and so on. For instance, the cost of clothing would not break away from the linear “take-make-consume-dispose” be pushed down by the fact that we are all wearing model, which assumes that resources are abundant, plastic clothing and breathing in particulates and so on. available and easy to dispose of. Our commitments on climate and nature simply cannot be met unless we 4.46 pm move to a more circular economy by reusing, repairing and recycling much more than we do now. We set Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): The covid ambitious goals in our 25-year environment plan, and emergency has demonstrated how vital plastic is, forming the Environment Bill will turn them into binding targets. the primary component in billions of items of personal The question for the Minister is: are we on track to protective equipment and other medical equipment used deliver the change we need to meet those targets? to fight the virus and save lives. It is versatile, low cost and durable. However,it is that strength—that durability— that has led to increasing public concern about plastic 4.50 pm littering our neighbourhoods and polluting our seas. Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Green) (Lab): I am Plastic will always be a part of our economy and our grateful to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington daily lives, but we urgently need to reduce our reliance (Elliot Colburn) for securing the debate. I have received on it and also make sure that more of the plastic that we many letters and emails from constituents of different do use is reused or recycled. ages—both young and old—who want to see urgent This Conservative Government are doing more than action taken to reduce waste, which is a serious threat any of their predecessors to address the issue. We were not only to animal and marine life but to us and our one of the first countries in the world to introduce an environment. The children of Chilcote Primary School extensive ban on microbeads in personal care products. in my constituency wrote to me during the lockdown, Our charging scheme, as we have heard, has led to a and the message is absolutely clear: take action now and dramatic reduction in plastic bag use, and the Environment save the planet. I am in the process of going round to Bill contains groundbreaking proposals for further action. schools and doing that. That includes extended producer responsibility, to The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington make the companies benefiting from plastic packaging said that the first issue he spoke on in the council was pay the full cost of disposal. That will give them an the environment. When I first became a councillor in incentive to consider the impacts that their products 1999 in Birmingham, there was a councillor who used have after they have been used by consumers. I hope to speak on environmental issues, and people used to that the Minister will also put pressure on the takeaway laugh at him. Twenty-two years on, we are still talking sector to play its part in reducing plastic waste and about recycling and the action that is needed. If we are tackling litter. Local authorities are at the sharp end of to take this seriously, we must bring forward the actions 151WH Plastic Waste 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 152WH

[Tahir Ali] and local people want to see massive corporations such as McDonald’s and Tesco taking responsibility for the that are needed to save the planet and the children of litter that flows from their stores. Covid has not helped— Chilcote Primary School, and all other schools in my masks like the ones we are wearing around the room are constituency and across the country, because it is about often found on the streets. The Government have hugely their future. We will then hand over to them the baton increased the fines that can be imposed for littering, but and they will look after the planet in the way that they we need to see regular prosecutions to create a serious want for future generations. We do not want those deterrent. children to be in this position 20 years on, still talking I am proud that Stroud is the greenest constituency in about it and debating the action that needs to be taken. the greenest county of Gloucestershire: we are already Microplastic pollution is a risk to animals and humans punching above our weight. One of our volunteer groups, alike, and it is now abundantly clear that radical action Stroud District Action on Plastic, works with individuals, needs to be taken. The Government maintain that the businesses, schools, clubs and other community UK is a world leader in tackling plastic pollution, yet organisations to reduce their plastic footprint. The group progress remains painfully slow. The UK is still one of was accredited by Surfers Against Sewage in 2020. We the largest producers of plastic waste in the world. have zero-waste environmental shops, such as Greenshop Much of it is exported abroad, but that does not diminish in Bisley, Waste Not, Want Not in Berkeley, Loose in our responsibility. It would be a nimby approach—not Stroud, Stroudco food hub, the Stroud Valleys Project in my back yard—to say, “Let’s offload it to someone shop and the Shiny Goodness health store and Beeswax else.” Wraps in Nailsworth—I could go on, but I would Not so long ago, I saw a documentary about the probably be told to be quiet. slums in India—the name of the biggest slum escapes What are our asks? There is no question in my mind my mind. It was amazing to see not only how they that the Conservative Government are working incredibly recycled every element of an object that could be recycled, hard in this area. The Environment Bill gives a range of from plastics, Coke bottles and whatever else, and turned new powers, and our creation of the Blue Planet Fund them into goods that could be resold, but the way that will help developing nations to tackle marine plastic community came together. If that can happen in a slum pollution, so action is not just here with restricting in a third-world country, as a developed nation we need plastic straws. We have heard the list of things that we not only to learn lessons but to set the standards to have done. make progress on this important issue. Once again, I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this important One of my constituents works for an organisation debate. called City to Sea, which is calling for the ban on plastic plates, cutlery and polystyrene cups to be considered even more swiftly than we are doing with our autumn 4.54 pm consultation, and brought in as a matter of urgency. I Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con): It is a pleasure to support that, and I will press for it. The Government’s serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. I thank my proposed deposit return scheme is excellent, but it can hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington and should go further with the all-in system that we (Elliot Colburn) for instigating today’s debate. have heard about. It would capture 23 billion drinks containers a year, while the limited system would capture I may be found regularly in Stroud balancing food on only about 7.4 billion. I recognise my hon. Friend’s my baby’s head, having already stuffed my pockets and suggestion that technology could be used better too. I her sling full of my purchases as I join millions of hope Stroud’s successes will spur many others on. people who refuse to pay 10p for a carrier bag. Such shopping/baby juggling was unthinkable even five years ago, but the Government’s determination to bring about 4.59 pm meaningful change has led, as we have already heard, to a 95% cut in plastic bag sales in major supermarkets Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I since 2015. When I start worrying about the scale of the am delighted to participate in this debate on reducing issue of plastic pollution, I think about the change of plastic waste. A recent report from Greenpeace, called behaviour on carrier bags, because it gives me hope. By “Trashed”, highlighted the shocking truth that the UK golly, do we need hope on plastic pollution. generates more plastic per person than any other country The UK is a world leader, but it is estimated that 5 in the world except the USA, with supermarkets and million tonnes of plastic is still used here every year, and major consumer brands being the largest sources of nearly half of that is packaging—8 billion drinks containers plastic packaging. Wemust improve that shameful situation. include plastic, and they end up landfilled, incinerated Half of all plastics ever manufactured have been or lost in our precious environments. Plastic waste lasts made in the last 15 years, and every year some 8 million centuries in landfill, pollutes soils, rivers, wetlands and tonnes of plastic waste escape into the oceans from oceans, harms the creatures that inhabit them and weakens coastal nations, equivalent to setting five full binbags of our environmental infrastructure that is essential not rubbish on every beach around the world. Millions of only for ecosystems but for our future. animals are killed by plastics every year, including birds, Closer to home in Stroud, littering and fly-tipping is fish and other marine organisms. Nearly 700 species, a constant feature of correspondence, casework and the including those that are endangered, are known to be local council’s work. As my hon. Friend mentioned, affected by plastics. Nearly every species of seabird eats children are really exercised by the issue and I regularly plastics. However, most animal deaths are caused by receive letters from schools. Our farmers have reported entanglement or starvation. Seals, whales, turtles and livestock being harmed by ingesting plastic rubbish, other animals are strangled by abandoned fishing gear 153WH Plastic Waste 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 154WH or discarded six-pack rings. Microplastics have been sales since 2015 shows what can be done. There are found in more than 100 aquatic species, and in our food good measures in the Environment Bill, we have a chain. world-leading plastic packaging tax coming in from The Scottish Government were the first to introduce April next year—£200 per tonne on plastic packaging the charge for plastic bags, and have banned personal that does not have a minimum threshold of 30% recycled hygiene products containing plastic microbeads and content—and we are leading, with other Commonwealth plastic-stemmed cotton buds. The work being done to countries, on the Blue Planet Fund, so we are working ban single-use plastic cutlery, plates, straws, and food internationally as well. However, there is more to do, and drink containers is very important, tackling some and my hon. Friend the Minister will be the first to of the most environmentally damaging single-use plastics. champion us to go further and faster—I know how However, clearly more must be done at UK and much she cares about this issue. international level to tackle the issue. Scotland aims to The House of Commons Library briefing paper states match the EU ambition for all plastic packaging to be that in 2017 the UK was recycling 41.5% of our plastic economically recyclable or reusable by 2030, signing the waste. However, we were behind Spain, Sweden, the New Plastics Economy global commitment, led by the Netherlands and Germany. In particular, we are behind Ellen MacArthur Foundation, showing a real commitment Lithuania, which appears to be recycling about two to a circular economy for plastics. thirds—66%—of its plastic. Perhaps the Minister will COP26 is a pivotal moment when this serious issue go to Lithuania to see whether we can learn anything can and should be tackled across the international from them. community.It offers an opportunity to make real progress I, too, am excited about the deposit return scheme, in dealing with the damage plastic causes to our world, which one or two colleagues have mentioned. That is our climate, our natural habitats and our population really needed. Like every colleague on the Government systems. That opportunity must not be squandered. Benches who has spoken, I urge the Government to go The Break Free From Plastic movement found that for the all-encompassing all-in option, which would Coca-Cola, PepsiCo and Nestlé were the three largest capture 23 billion plastic containers every year, rather plastic polluters in the world in 2020. These corporations than the more limited on-the-go option, which would must be held accountable for the shocking plastic waste capture only 7.4 billion containers. That is the first extra that infects our communities and takes centuries to thing that we could do. decompose. We must not let them off the hook. We Secondly, we must make recycling instructions clearer. need concerted international action to effect real and I am sure that my wife and I are not the only couple in positive change; we need to consider what carrots and the country who stare endlessly at items of plastic sticks can be used to persuade producers to reduce trying to work out whether we can recycle them—it is plastic waste. COP26 presents that opportunity to take very small writing and not clear. Perhaps the Minister action and ensure real accountability, and we must use will make us have really clear, large and easy-to-see it to seek to influence producer behaviour in a instructions on products, so that we all know which bin comprehensive and holistic way, so that we can say we that stuff should go in. are doing all we can to address the scourge of plastic I am also pleased to hear that we will make progress waste on our world. I urge the Minister not to let that with local authorities all having to recycle more items. opportunity pass by, and look forward to hearing what With plastic, I understand that from next year every plans she has to make sure that is firmly on the agenda. local authority in England will have to recycle plastic Failure will not be forgiven by future generations. bottles, including clear drinks containers, HDPE—high- Consumers want action, and now is the time for the density polyethylene—milk containers, detergent, shampoo international community to listen to consumers and and cleaning product containers, and plastic pots, tubs finally take real action to address the issue globally. and trays. That is good. Will we go further? Will we include more? We should not lack ambition. 5.2 pm In addition, there is what we can do personally—we will all of us, absolutely, want to hold the Government’s Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): It is feet to the fire on this, but we can all recycle more a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. ourselves. We can use more items for life. It is excellent There are two important reasons why this debate matters that many shops, large and small, get that. I visited a so much. First, plastic pollution is killing more than 1 new small business, the Good Life Refill shop on Leighton million birds per year—that is a shocking figure. I have Buzzard High Street, where people can refill, as in the just come from a Royal Society for the Protection of name. Tesco is also doing great things—Leighton Buzzard Birds reception. In addition, more than 100,000 sea has one of the stores where we can recycle considerably mammals and turtles—those majestic creatures of the more plastic than in other stores. Those are some good sea—are dying every year from eating, or getting tangled local examples but, please, we need to keep going on in, plastic waste. We are making the biodiversity crisis this. Our constituents really care about it, younger worse. Secondly, plastics are currently contributing 1% people in particular. of global carbon emissions, but projections show them rising to 15% of the global carbon budget by 2050 if we do not take action. That is absolutely the wrong direction. 5.7 pm The UK has not been idle on this issue: we have Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve banned microbeads, restricted the supply of plastic under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. I thank the hon. straws, stirrers and cotton buds, and we are consulting Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) on banning single-use plastic plates, cutlery and polystyrene for securing a debate that we are all invested in—so are cups. The 95% reduction in supermarket plastic bag our constituents, clearly. 155WH Plastic Waste 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 156WH

[Dave Doogan] The Scottish Government led the way in October 2014 with the plastic bag charge, with England following The UK Government simply must do more to combat after. Scotland is again leading the way. We have already the plastic crisis. They must seek to match the Scottish banned personal hygiene products containing plastic Government’s significantly more ambitious targets and microbeads, and plastic-stemmed cotton buds. In this achievements. Protecting Scotland’s natural environment parliamentary Session, the SNP will take action to ban is a key priority for the Scottish Government and single-use plastic cutlery, plates, straws, balloon sticks always has been, which is why we are bringing forward a and so on. Those are some of the most environmentally circular economy Bill to encourage the reuse of products, damaging single-use plastics, and we will ban their to reduce waste and to increase recycling. That comes manufacture and supply in Scotland. My hon. Friend on top of all our other actions since 2007. the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia We are good at recycling in Scotland, but we want to Gibson) went through the entire list, and I have touched get even better.The recycling rate in my Angus constituency on some of the imminent improvements in Scotland. is 59.1%. That is not quite the 66% of Lithuania, but if They will be supplemented by an ambitious deposit the Minister wants to come somewhere slightly more return scheme. expedient than Lithuania, she is more than welcome to I urge the Minister to listen to Members from her see what we do in Angus. own party, if not to me, and to have the most ambitious deposit return scheme. The one that we are to introduce Consumers need confidence that the trouble they go in Scotland next year will incentivise the recycling of to in order to recycle does not result in their commodified not only single-use plastic drinks containers, but cans recycling turning up in mixed-plastic bales to be shipped and glass bottles. Scotland is leading the way, and I very somewhere far away and end up smouldering on a much hope that the UK Government will follow in this roadside somewhere, as we saw in Turkey. That does not context and many others. It is incumbent on Ministers instil confidence in consumers to do the right thing. and the Government to ensure that this is delivered on. This crisis must receive renewed attention from the UK May I, in a conclusion that is hopefully not too Government, not least because the UK is estimated to confusing, speak up for plastics, as some right hon. and produce 5 million tonnes of plastic waste every year, hon. Members have done? I do not fancy a life without nearly half of which is packaging. plastic. I do not want to get on an aeroplane without plastic; According to National Geographic, half of all the I do not want to get ill in a world without plastic; and I plastics ever manufactured was produced in the past really do not want to clean up after my 12-year-old 15 years, as others have said. That is clearly and profoundly Golden Retriever in a world without plastic. Plastic is unsustainable. Without oversharing, I must mention my not the villain here. We must minimise its use in a way fondness for Mr Kipling’s lemon slices. I am too fond of that is consistent with our climate objectives, but focus them, and it is unfortunate that they come in a plastic on the post-consumer regime. The operative word in the tray, inside a plastic sleeve, inside a cardboard box, held plastic waste crisis is “waste”, and I urge the Government together with—I hope—a water-based glue, although it not to waste any more time. might be a plastic-based glue. That is not okay, and it is done in pursuit of a competitive edge. 5.12 pm Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to The growing use of plastic is a feature of competition, serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. I thank the largely in food production, a shift to ready-made produce, hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot and the growth of the food service sector. Legislation Colburn) for calling this debate and providing the House has not been anywhere near keeping pace with changes with the opportunity to address our collective responsibility in the market. As the hon. Member for Swansea West to preserve our planet and protect our environment. (Geraint Davies) mentioned, plastic packaging is not cheap. It may be relatively cheap in monetary terms to The scourge of plastic waste is evident in communities produce, but it is not cheap in environmental and across the country, thanks to a lost decade of Tory generational terms. austerity. It is piling up on high streets, on street corners and in our green open spaces. It is also exported, as we There is a technological and a cultural dimension to have heard, to some of the world’s poorest countries, this crisis. Culturally,we need to move to greater awareness where what is supposed to be recyclable material ends of our purchasing decisions, to drive producers to change up in landfill, polluting our oceans, or even being their practices, but we need the legislation to back that shipped back to Britain for us to deal with. This is a up. There will always be plastic waste, and we need to very real problem, and it requires speedy, comprehensive halt those bales of mixed plastic being shipped out and and properly funded solutions. dealt with somewhere else; we need to deal with our The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington mess here. In our regime, it is “Out of sight, out of will know, as will the Minister, that many of the agencies mind.” That is the UK’s position and it is incorrigible. that should be tackling waste and pollution are underfunded We need a technical vision, too. We need to see and understaffed. The Environment Agency has struggled beyond the current challenges and find a route out of to tackle waste crime and monitor waste exports because them. This might seem a little abstract, but I want to of the cuts to its budget and staff numbers. Colleagues touch on the production of Concorde, the supersonic across the Chamber have mentioned the issues with passenger aircraft. It is no exaggeration to say that the local authorities, which are struggling to deal with engineers and technicians who designed that aircraft waste effectively. had no idea how they were going to do it when they The Government’s plan to eliminate all avoidable embarked on it. We need to recover some of that plastic waste by 2042 is years behind schedule and appears ambition and eagerness to confront the challenges in to contain only weak proposals. Britain’s plastic waste front of us. crisis is being kicked into the long grass. That plan 157WH Plastic Waste 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 158WH reflects what we all know to be true: the Government I have questions on a couple of policy areas. The lack ambition and drive,and are failing in their responsibility primary aim of the deposit return scheme is to increase to preserve our planet and protect our environment. the recycling rates for drinks containers, and to reduce Talking of the environment, I am very pleased to see the littering. That is great, but the Government are considering progress that the Environment Bill is making in the whether to restrict the scope of the scheme to covers other place. It is important legislation that, at every only drinks containers under 750 ml in size. That is an stage, Labour has attempted to strengthen, improve and issue. We have heard the stats on how the scheme could empower. Regrettably, the Conservative party and be improved if there was an on-the-go option. Extended Government voted against and defeated every single producer responsibility is another area. The Government amendment of ours, including our plans for tackling are right to recognise that it needs a major overhaul. plastic waste. Will the Minister commit today to delivering EPR for The Environment Bill’s provision for a deposit return packaging by 2023? I have asked a number of questions, scheme is limited to certain materials, rather than creating and I look forward to the Minister’s response to each a framework that could be broadened to include more and every one. types of plastic or bioplastics. The Bill’s waste and resource efficiency measures are too focused on the Christina Rees (in the Chair): I call Minister Rebecca end-of-life solutions to waste and recycling; much more Pow. Would you please leave a couple of minutes at the emphasis is needed, in a real cyclical economy, on the end, so that Elliot Colburn can wind up? production side, and on encouraging the reduction of waste in the first place. 5.18 pm The country is crying out for real leadership from the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Government. We require proper action now. That action Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): will take many different forms. One important one is Thank you, Ms Rees. It is a pleasure to have you in the building a narrative out in the community. UK Chair. I am really pleased to be in this very important supermarkets produce approximately 800,000 tonnes of debate in Westminster Hall. As colleagues know, I take plastic waste every year, so how are we empowering the whole issue of plastics very seriously indeed. I thank customers to do away with plastic waste? We heard my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington from the hon. Member for Stroud (Siobhan Baillie) (Elliot Colburn) for bringing the issue to us. Clearly, about the use of slings and juggling with babies, but we there is an awful lot of synergy in the room on the issue, also need to work on other issues, to get everybody to as there is from the public. I get a lot of letters from do the same thing. schools, as we all do. It is good that there is so much Although this is a devolved issue, it is important for interest in this agenda, which we take very seriously in all parts of the UK because plastic waste in our waterways Government. and our seas does not stop at national borders. Could My hon. Friend mentioned that the issue is not just the Minister outline what recent discussions she has had about what we do with waste at the end; it is about not with the devolved Administrations on a four-nation producing it in the first place, and I will touch on that. response to tackling the plastic waste crisis across the That is why we have a lot of targets. We have already set countries? targets to reduce the amount of waste sent to landfill to May I suggest that the Minister arranges a meeting 10% by 2035, and an overall target of zero avoidable with the Welsh Environment Minister at the earliest plastic waste of any kind by 2042—a point touched on opportunity? The Welsh Labour Government have led by the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies). the way on delivering bold policies to tackle single-use That does not mean that we will wait until then; we have plastics. Wales is now recognised as the second most a raft of measures in place to tackle the issue long successful recycling country in the world. The Minister before that. The Government are moving on the issue, does not need to go to Lithuania or even Scotland—she which I am sure hon. Friends and hon. Members will could come to Wales first. There is much for this understand, because we are moving towards a recyclable, Government to learn from the Labour Government in reusable, compostable era, with all plastic1 waste hopefully Wales, and there is no time like the present to start being of that nature by 2025. We are committed to doing so. transitioning to a circular economy. Back in 2019, the resources and waste strategy set out Geraint Davies rose— a plan for resource efficiency and a circular economy, which included the ambition for all plastics to be biodegradable. It is clear that environmental damage Rebecca Pow: I will not give way, because I think I caused by single-use bags would be somewhat mitigated have answered the hon. Gentleman’s question, and if there was a requirement for them to be biodegradable. I want to get through the many points that have been Will the Minister provide us with a progress check on made. what the Government are doing to stop plastics, including We have already introduced one of the toughest bans plastic bags, that are not biodegradable, from entering on microbeads and microplastics anywhere.2 We have circulation? had the 5p carrier bag charge—now the 10p charge. As has been highlighted, that has cut down dramatically on Ahead of the debate, I received a very helpful briefing the number of single-use plastic bags being used by from Wildlife and Countryside Link—I pay tribute to supermarkets. We have extended it to small producers. I it for all the work it does to shine a light on the love the image of juggling the baby and not taking a issues. The briefing acknowledged recent Government bag. I have done the same, but I always take my Somerset announcements, but they do not go far enough and do Willow wicker basket with me. Everyone should have not tackle the problem. one—support local traditions. 1.[Official Report, 13 September 2021, Vol. 700, c. 6MC.] 2.[Official Report, 13 September 2021, Vol. 700, c. 6MC.] 159WH Plastic Waste 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 160WH

[Rebecca Pow] working with other global partners to implement our obligations under the Basel convention and the OECD We have also restricted the supply of single-use plastic decision on waste. We have a robust system, run by the straws, stirrers and cotton buds, and we will go much Environment Agency, for compliance and tackling any further than that shortly, because we are consulting on illegal exports of plastic. It is doing increasingly focused banning single-use plastic plates and cutlery,and polystyrene work on that. At a national level, I am sure the shadow drinks containers. In that consultation, we will ask Minister will be pleased to hear that we are committed whether there are similar things that we should be to tackling waste crime, mandatory electronic waste working towards. I know that there is an awful lot of tracking and the overhauling and improving of the pressure relating to the EU single-use plastic directive, carrier, broker and dealer regime. We are moving on but we will be addressing all that and more. Indeed, we with that very shortly. This was mentioned in the are tackling a whole lot of other issues that have not Environment Bill as well, as she knows.Our comprehensive even been tackled yet by that directive. For example, we electronic waste tracking system will help regulators to are looking at textiles, because a lot of textiles produce identify illegal and non-compliant activity. microfibres. There is an awful lot that we are working What next? Many councils are already doing great on. work on recycling. We are determined to learn more, Innovation and research have been touched on. We and to ensure that every household can recycle easily, as have established a £100 million package for research my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire and innovation to deal with the issue of plastic waste. (Andrew Selous) mentioned. We have myriad different That includes £38 million through the plastics research systems, but clarity will be key, as well as guidance, and innovation fund and £10 million through the resource because the Environment Bill requires a core set of action fund to innovate in recycling and in tackling materials to be collected by every council, to make litter, which was touched on by my right hon. Friend the recycling easier across the board. Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers). Talking We will seek powers under the Bill to introduce the of science, she touched on oxo-biodegradables, an issue deposit return scheme that so many hon. Members that has been raised with me and that I have had mentioned. It would apply to drinks containers of multiple meetings about. As a result of a call for evidence on materials—not just plastic—including packed plastic this, and the review by the Hazardous Substances Advisory bottles. That has been very successful in other countries, Committee on oxo-biodegradable plastics, we are minded as we have heard. We have consulted on the all-in-one to consult on a ban on those materials. That is the latest and on-the-go systems, and we are analysing all that update that I can give her on that. information. Plastic pollution is not just a problem for our country. On the digital DRS system, we have a lot of trials That is why we have worked to support the Global running on technology, because we have to harness Ghost Gear Initiative, the Commonwealth Clean Ocean that. There could be real opportunities there for systems Alliance and the tide turners plastic challenge badge, in busy places such as transport hubs—railway stations helping hundreds of thousands of young people tackle and so forth—as well as shops. I know Scotland has plastics in their communities. Through the £500 million been working away on the deposit return scheme. I Blue Planet Fund, we are investing in, among other think it has already been delayed and a review is under things, the Global Plastic Action Partnership. way, so we will watch how Scotland proceeds with We are ready to go further, and that is why we are interest. We have the extended producer responsibility calling for a new global agreement to co-ordinate action scheme, introduced under the Environment Bill. That on marine plastic litter and microplastics. Just as we has a special focus on plastic packaging, because it is had in Paris for climate change, we believe we need an the most littered item. We will ensure that companies international agreement on these types of plastic pollution. that place plastic packaging on the market will cover The majority of UN members are already on board, so the costs of disposal, rather than passing it on to the when we come together at the UN Environmental Assembly taxpayer, which is what happens at the moment. next February, I hope that other nations will join in In addition, from April next year, the plastic packaging with this. tax will impose a charge of £200 a tonne on plastic packaging with less than 30% recycled content. It is Geraint Davies: Will the Minister give way on that? estimated that that will lead to 40% more recycled plastic used in packaging by 2022-23, which will cut Rebecca Pow: Very briefly. carbon emissions by 200,000 tonnes. I think all hon. Members and friends will agree that that will be significant; Geraint Davies: Is the Minister sympathetic to the it will make a big difference to our moving in the right EU’s idea of a carbon border tax, whereby we tax direction, and it will happen very shortly. imports of plastic? The implication is that the cost of My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and plastic would go up and consumption would go down. Wallington mentioned incineration. In October 2020, we legislated to include a permit condition for landfill Rebecca Pow: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. I and incineration operators, which means that they cannot heard what he said in his speech. All issues are being accept separately collected paper, metal, glass or plastic discussed. It is not something that we are particularly for landfill or incineration unless it has gone through focusing on right now. some form of treatment process first and that is the best The export of plastics was touched on by the hon. environmental outcome. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Tahir Ali) and I hope this demonstrates how many measures are by the shadow Minister. We have committed to banning under way and will be coming forward shortly to help the export of waste to non-OECD countries, and we are us to reach all those targets and to tackle this issue, 161WH Plastic Waste 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Plastic Waste 162WH which I think we all agree is a scourge. We must do (Andrew Selous) gave us some good international examples. something about it, but we genuinely are moving at I would happily join him on a trip to Lithuania, if he is great speed in the right direction. offering. I hope that Mr Kipling has listened to what the SNP spokesman, the hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan) said; I would hate him to have to reduce his intake of 5.28 pm Mr Kipling’s cakes, as they are fantastic. I thank the Elliot Colburn: I thank all right hon. and hon. Members Minister for her reply, and the action she and the for taking part in what has been a really good debate. Government are taking. I know all right hon. and hon. The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) Members here and across the House will continue to spoke about the cost of plastic; my right hon. Friend hold the Government’s feet to the fire over this issue, the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) and I am sure the Minister welcomes that. I also thank mentioned the need for councils to do more. The hon. the Commons Chamber Engagement team and those Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Tahir Ali) spoke who took part in the survey for helping us to prepare for about leaving a good future for our children, and my today’s debate; it has been very informative. hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Siobhan Baillie) Question put and agreed to. spoke about how changes in behaviour on bags have Resolved, given us hope. The hon. Member for North Ayrshire That this House has considered reducing plastic waste. and Arran (Patricia Gibson) spoke powerfully about international responsibility and working together, and 5.29 pm my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire Sitting adjourned.

27WS Written Statements 8 SEPTEMBER 2021 Written Statements 28WS

purpose of providing stability to the football pyramid. Written Statement Moreover, the Government have not received representations indicating a potential bid for the Near Wednesday 8 September 2021 Live Package if a tender were to be run. We also note one concern raised about consumers potentially facing higher prices in the absence of a DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT competitive tender process. We have carefully considered this point and concluded that the risk of higher prices is low and outweighed by the significant public policy Sport Broadcasting Update benefits that would be delivered by providing stability to the English football pyramid. We expect broadcasters to keep the costs of their packages at current levels, as a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, result of the renewed broadcast deal on existing terms. Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): The Finally, in response to a question that was raised by one Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport wrote stakeholder,I can confirm that the “fair dealing”exemption to the DCMS and Business, Energy and Industrial in copyright law will not be affected by the Exclusion Strategy Committees on 2 August to set out the final Order. decision on making an Exclusion Order under the Having carefully considered the representations made, Competition Act 1998, regarding the Premier League’s the Secretary of State for BEIS has concluded that there domestic broadcasting agreements. This followed the are exceptional and compelling reasons of public policy open letter sent to the Premier League informing them to make the proposed Exclusion Order. I can therefore of Ministers’ “minded to approach” and inviting confirm that, subject to the Premier League formalising representations from interested parties. This approach their financial commitments to the football pyramid sought to guarantee around £1.6 billion of funding for with the Government, as set out in my written ministerial the football pyramid, including for grassroots football, statement on 13 May, the Government will bring forward women’s football, and lower league clubs. secondary legislation to make the Exclusion Order. On 13 May 2021, in a written ministerial statement to The Exclusion Order will disapply UK competition Parliament, I confirmed that officials at DCMS had law to allow the Premier League and the relevant broadcast written to the Premier League, and to Sky, BT, Amazon rights holders to agree to extend the Premier League’s and the BBC as the current holders of the Premier UK broadcast agreements on substantially their current League’s UK broadcast rights. This informed them that terms to the 2022-23 and 2024-25 seasons, without the the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Premier League carrying out a competitive tender process. Strategy, my right hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), was minded to make an Exclusion If the Premier League’scurrent UK broadcast agreements Order under the Competition Act 1998, allowing the are renewed for seasons 2022-23, 2023-24 and 2024-25, Premier League to renew its current UK broadcast the Premier League has committed to: agreements with relevant broadcast rights holders for a guarantee existing levels of financial support for the football three-year period without carrying out the normal tender pyramid for four years from 2021-22 to the end of the process. Such an Exclusion Order would be a temporary 2024-25 season. This includes solidarity payments, parachute measure to provide stability for the football pyramid payments,youth development funding and funding for grassroots coming out of the pandemic, guaranteeing around football at existing levels, worth over £1.5 billion over the three-year rights cycle; £1.6 billion for the game. This funding would spread across the pyramid including grassroots football, women’s maintain at least this level of funding even if its international broadcast rights decrease in value when they are re-tendered football, funding for lower league clubs, and long-term individually over the next year into 2022, and to increase the income for clubs to plan for the future. This is crucial level of funding if its international broadcast rights exceed given the losses sustained by football during the pandemic, their current value; and with around £2 billion lost by the Premier League and provide a further minimum £100 million in solidarity and its clubs alone. good causes funding to the end of the 2024-25 season, in roughly equal shares, to the National League, women’sfootball, The Government invited interested parties to make League One and Two clubs, grassroots football and cross-game representations before a final decision on the Exclusion initiatives. This would make a significant financial contribution, Order was taken. Of the 15 representations submitted, including doubling the support for the non-league system, most were supportive of the Exclusion Order because and providing crucial financial support for the women’s of the stability that would be provided by renewing the game. broadcast agreements. The Secretary of State for BEIS This Exclusion Order is a temporary measure in and DCMS Ministers acknowledge the concern that response to the pandemic. The normal tendering process was raised in one representation about the inclusion of is expected to be followed for the subsequent broadcast the “Near Live Package” of broadcast rights in the rights period following the 2024-25 Premier League renewed agreements. However, we have concluded season. that subdividing the rights packages could disrupt the [HCWS271] current arrangements,which would undermine the intended

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 8 September 2021

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 294 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 294 Misuse of Drugs Act and Health Outcomes ...... 286 Infrastructure for Businesses: Weymouth...... 300 Public Inquiry: Handling of Covid-19 in Scotland. 291 Strength of the Union...... 288 SCOTLAND...... 285 Transport Connections: Scotland and Rest of Ferry Services: Scotland to Europe ...... 285 UK ...... 291 Free Trade Agreements: Opportunities for Scotland...... 292 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 8 September 2021

Col. No. DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 27WS Sport Broadcasting Update...... 27WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 15 September 2021

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 700 Wednesday No. 43 8 September 2021

CONTENTS

Wednesday 8 September 2021

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 285] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Covid Vaccine Passports [Col. 305] Answer to urgent question—(Nadhim Zahawi)

Social Secutrity (Up-rating of Benefits) [Col. 318] Bill presented, and read the First time

Multi-Academy Trusts (Ofsted Inspection) [Col. 319] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Jonathan Gullis)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Business of the House (Today) [Col. 322] Motion—(James Morris)—agreed to

Health and Social Care Levy [Col. 323] (Ways and Means) Amendment—(Keir Starmer)—on a Division, negatived Motion, on a Division, agreed to

Cambridgeshire and Perborough Independent Commission on Climate [Col. 425] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Tigray [Col. 85WH] Co-operative Purchase of Companies [Col. 111WH] Rough Sleeping [Col. 117WH] British Council [Col. 137WH] Plastic Waste [Col. 145WH] General debates

Written Statement [Col. 27WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]