Minnesota Youth Gang Research Project Minnesota Historical Society

Tape 63 Interview with Z 18 year old Hmong American Saint Paul MOD (Men of Destruction)

Interviewed by Kate Cavett Hand in Hand Tuesday August 25, 1998 Dakota County Juvenile Detention Center

.05 KC: Introduce yourself to me? Z: (name) Project KC: What name can I use for this interview? I never use anybody's real name. What name can I use? Z: Um .. .just my name, ya know. KC: One of the purposes of using another name is to not have you be identifiable, to keep your confidentiality. Z: Z. Society KC: Z. As in the letter Z? Ok. How old are you? Research Z: I'm 18. KC: And what's your cultural background? Z: Hmong. KC: How old were you when you first becameGang aware of organizations or gangs? Z: Ah ... nine. Historical KC: Where were you living then? Z: Where was I livin? St. Paul. Frogtown. KC: How did you become awareYouth of gangs? Z: Ah ... what do you mean, aware of gangs? KC: You were nine when you first heard about gangs. What did you hear about? What did you see? Z: Urn .. .jus lot a violence, crimes, shooting, robbing, stealing. KC: It interested you? Minnesota Z: I guess. When I was 9, yes. I thought it was alright ta do it, so I joined a gang. 1.56 Minnesota KC: What gang did you join? Z: Back then I was, ah .. .let's see ... with the TCG. KC: What does TCG stand for? Z: True Crip Gangsters. KC: True Crip Gangsters. What did you have to do to join the TCG? Z: Ah, did a little initiation, prove to them that I was all this an that. Got in, went in ... got into a fight. Urn, did lot a ... dirt. Had ta like fight with one a the other members of the gang, thas

all. KC: How old were the rest of the TCG's? Z: TCG's were little ... bout couple years older than I was, bout 13, 14. An then, um .... the rest were like 18 an 17, back then. 3.10 KC: So as a TCG, kind of what was life like? What kind of stuff did you do as a nine year old? Z: Ah, went an stole cars, got in trouble, thas .... go shoplift an got in trouble for dat, too. Never went ta school. Got put on probation an so on. KC: Were you on probation at nine years old? 3.45 Z: Ah .. .1 think at 11. Yes, cuz I never went ta school. KC: So you were put on probation for not going to school? Project Z: Yes. KC: Why didn't you go to school? Z: Cuz, I was wanting to be with my friends an go have fun. An, go .... cuz, I thought school was boring. School wasn't my interest, then. My interest was jus goin out an have fun. KC: Did any of your friends go to school? Z: Ah, not really. The majority of them, they went truant with Societyme, never went ta school. Stay home party, whatever, or else go out an go playResearch video game at the arcade or somethin. KC: So you started, I'm guessing, did you start using drugs at about nine years old then? Z: Ah, no. Around when I was 12. I started usin drugs, started smokin cigarettes an then started alcohol an then started the marijuana an so, thas it. KC: So, you hung around them for aboutGang three years before you started smoking or drinking? Z: Yes. KC: Long time. That was a long time. HowHistorical long were you a TCG? Z: Um ... bout four years or so, thas it. KC: Why did you decide toYouth flip to a different gang? 5.3-- Z: Cuz, ah .. .1 had got locked up an came out an heard that there was no more TCG's. So, I went an hung around with another crowd an then jus went.. . .1 became another gang member. Started claimin another set. KC: Where did you get Minnesotalocked up? Z: I was locked up at a group home, for not goin ta school. KC: DidMinnesota you start goin ta school? Z: When I was in the group home, yes. But, ah .. after that I never went ta school. When I came outa the group home, I never went ta school. KC: So what was the new organization that you joined? Z: I was ah .. with the JWT's, White Tiger family. KC: Junior White Tigers? 6.31 Z: Yes. Junior White Tiger an White Tiger. KC: How long were you a Junior White Tiger?

Z: For about ... .let's see ... a year an a halfta two years. An thas when I got in trouble again for ah ... stealin a car. KC: Did you do it? Z: Yes. Got sentenced six months to Totem Town, three months to Totem Town. KC: When were you in Totem Town? Z: Back in '94. '94, '95. KC: Which ... you were in Cl, right? Z: Yes, I was in Cl. KC: So, when you got out of Totem Town, did you stay with the Junior White Tigers? Z: Yes. The next day I had a went out an had a party an I went an stole another car. An, I got into a high speed chase with the police for about 30 minutes or so, an then finally got into a car accident an thas where .... around my house. I hit twoProject parked cars. Broke my ... ah ... stemum, I didn't break it, but I fractured it. An, um ... thas when I went back inta Totem Town the next day, becuz I had stole a car. KC: You're shaking your head .... what's that about? Z: It's jus ... .! can't believe things I done back then was so stupid now I think of it. KC: Why did you do them? Z: Excuse me? Society KC: Why did you do them? Research Z: Cuz I wanted ..... ta drive an go pick up some girls or somethin. Thas why. KC: So a big deal was to impress the girls. Z: Ah .... not really ... guess you could say that, yes. KC: And were the girls impressed with gangsters?Gang Z: Ah .. .! guess. Yes, you could say that. They were .... when ... yes. KC: You went from Junior White Tiger to beingHistorical a full White Tiger? 9.11 Z: Ah, yes. Youth KC: Did you have to get beat in there? Z: I got to a little fight with my enemies. Then, I got in a fight with some TMCs an thas how I got in. Got into .... the White Tigers. KC: What kind of things did you do as a White Tiger? Z: Parties an smoke, Minnesotadrink. Um .. an go around .. basically walkin around the projects an I was livin in McDonough an basically we was watchin over our territory. TMC was on the other side,Minnesota we was on this side. Whenever they come ta our side, we get into a little fight with em, or shooting with them. KC: Would you be strapped? Z: Not me, but like .. some a my boys, yes. KC: How come you wouldn't be strapped? Z: Cuz then I didn't ... ah .. .! wasn't really interested in guns yet. KC: So how long were you a White Tiger? Z: Bout.. .. until I was around 16. Like ... 3 Ih, 4 years or so, 5 years, so. KC: Then you left and went to another gang?

Z: Ab .. .let me see, yes. Thas when I...everybody had been locked up an so then, we had split up an went our own direction. Thas when I .. .I became a leader of a Junior Crips an then after that I became a Hmong Pride. 11.25 KC: You became the leader of Junior Crips? Z: Yes. KC: So, JC? Z: Yes. KC: How long did JC exist? Z: JC existed for about a year or so. Everybody, ya know, we ruled Roosevelt home, Maplewood East, Minneapolis, Frogtown. Basically. KC: How many were there in Junior Crips? Project Z: There was a lot. I'd say 30 ta 40 people. KC: And you were the top dog? Z: Yes. KC: So how did you form your own organization? Z: Um .. J dunno.jus, I see people that...let's see, I dunno jus people that I hang out with. Ya know, I hang with them, they hang with me an then we becomeSociety good friends an then we go recruit people an after ..... jus keep on recruitin people.Research KC: Did you recruit people from other organizations? Or, did you recruited younger kids, kids off the street? Z: Ab ... younger kids off the streets. KC: Was there a Senior Crip organization?Gang Z: Ab .... no, jus us. KC: So, was it Asian Crips? Historical Z: Yes. KC: But you call it Junior Crips?Youth I mean is it known as Asian Crips, now? Z: Yes. It's known as 357AC from California. KC: So .... you're grinning. Are you going to tell me this, or do you not want to? Z: I had some relatives in California an they had their own AC down there, so he said for us to start our own set up here in Minnesota. So, when they come up here we would jus form AC. AnMinnesota then..•. we form our own set up here in St. Paul an Minneapolis. 13.58 KC: WouldMinnesota you initiate people into your own set? Z: Yes. KC: What was the initiation? Z: Made em go do somethin, like go .... go steal somethin, go rob, go fight somebody. Go break into a house or somethin. Thas, basically it. KC: And it sounds like you would recruit people from the whole Metropolitan area? Z: Yes. KC: So how long did you remain an AC? Z: Jus a year an then everybody decided ..... then I met some a my other boys from back in the

old days. We jus formed Hmong Pride. Thas when we had a lot a trouble with TMC. KC: So, you're missing you old homies, you jus leave Asian Crips to some new leadership and you form Hmong Pride? Z: Yes, we... we form Hmong Pride. An, the rest they went an become AC's an I jus stuck with the Hmong Prides. KC: Was there kind of a split in philosophy or a split in leadership? Z: Split in leadership? What do you mean by that? KC: Well, some people wanted AC to go in a different direction than you did, so you divided ..... some people went to Hmong Pride and some people stayed AC? Z: Yes, thas how it went. Some stay with me, some went with AC. An thas when AC went their own way, they went with 612 an TCG's started ta form again, so thas when AC hung around with them, an then Ijus stuck around with the Hmong Pride,Project the MOD's. KC: So, the TCG's that had disbanded before, kind of became Hmong Pride? Z: No they had ah.. started another TCG gang up, too. So, there was .... TCG went an hung around with 612 an AC. An, Ijus basically stuck with Hmong Pride an MOD. KC: MOD is? Z: Men of Destruction. 16.45 Society KC: So, Hmong Pride and MOD were allies? Kind Researchoflike M & M's and White Tigers are allies? Z: Yes. Thas how it was. KC: When you were with Asian Crips, were there any females in the organization? Z: Ah ... yes there was. They from ah.... LAC. KC: Lady Asian Crips? Gang Z: Yes. KC: What was the initiation for the females inHistorical Lady Asian Crips? Z: Ta, I dunno ... .! dunno, becuz I wasn't in charge a that. Ijus, basically recruited guys, people off the streets, not ladies.Youth KC: But recently, we know that the girls that were recruited into the Asian Crips, were sexed in. So, I guess the question is: to become a girl involved did you have to be sexed in back then? Z: Ah, no. Back then, no. But, from what I know now, yes. KC: Do you know what made that change? Z: Ah ... no. Minnesota KC: How many girls were Lady Asian Crips back then? Z: BoutMinnesota 10,20. KC: How many AC's were there then? Z: Bout, a lot. Urn .. KC: 30, 40? Z: 20, 30 people or somethin like that. I never kept count of people. KC: So, you're an OG. You've started a couple organizations. 18.35 Z: Yes. KC: How did you go about starting Hmong Pride?

Z: Ah .. me an one a myoId friends from back then, from TCG, we had talked ta each other an then jus formed Hmong Pride an we had talked about it for weeks an then we finally decided that. .. to drop the Junior Crips, AC, all that an then jus form Hmong Pride. An, so I dropped everything. I jus became part a the Hmong Pride ..... KC: So what was the symbol ofHmong Pride? Z: Jus .... Hmong Pride .... HP. KC: HP? Z: Yep. KC: How did you go about recruiting people into Hmong Pride? Z: People, we didn't...it's like me an my friend who we ... um... we formed that Hmong Pride thing, we basically did a lot a, ya know what I'm sayin, fighting an all that. An then people started hearin about us. Um... an then people wanted ta be with us, Projectso then... thas when a lot a people started bein with us. 20.04 KC: What was Hmong Prides speciality? I mean it seems like the different Asian gangs have different specialities as far as how they make their money. Z: Specialities? KC: Specialities, like some gangs do gun stuff; store robberies;Society some gangs do a lot of car jackings; some gangs .... somebody in the gang mightResearch sell some drugs. Did Hmong Pride have a speciality? Z: Well, most of us worked. An the rest they jus like robbed houses, go pawn things at pawn shops or sell em off the streets or somethin. Thas how it was. People steal things, sell if off on street... to each other... to other gangs,Gang who wanna buy em. Like systems .... people.. .like other people who don't got jobs, they like go steal system an sell it to other gangs, like $150, 50 bucks, 80 bucks, somethin like that. Historical 21.07 KC: How did you get to beYouth EJJ? Z: How I got ta be EJJ? When I was a Hmong Pride back in '95. Yes, in '95. When we had jus started it, um . .I had um.. we been enemies with TMC for a long time an we like .. TMC like come to our territory, we go over there, not me but like my homies, home boys, whatever, they go over there ta Maplewood East an start shooting at them. They shoot at us, whatever. An, then one day ..Minnesota um. .I was downtown with one a my boys an we was comin outa the arcade, I went to a restroom, an they had followed me, me an my boy to the restroom. An thenMinnesota urn ... when my boy left outa the restroom I was still in the stall an I guess, I came out they put a gun to my head, they say - well say your (unclear) Hmong Pride. An they jus started talkin all these ..... stuff ta me an jus like got me pissed off. An I was like, they wanna shoot me, shoot me right there an then. An they didn't shoot me. So then the next day I went back downtown, brought a little handgun with me ... pistol with me. They inta the bus shelter, I was walkin down there, I saw them, I jus.... like well say your claim, an then they say ACK, TMC, so then Ijus pulled out the gun, I started shootin at them, whatever, cappin on them. An, then they pulled out there own, we got into a little shooting down there. An then I took off, they took off, whatever. An then, I guess, later on I got caught with the gun.

They had came ... a warrant came to my house, found the gun, whatever. An then thas when I got locked up. KC: Did they get caught, too and locked up? Z: Uh uh. I think it was the police didn't um... check on it that well, ya know what I'm sayin. Police had um ... ya know what I'm sayin,jus been in a rush, they didn't..wasn't do in theirjob, ya know what I'm sayin. The gun was right in front a one a the dude's pants, in front a his belt. An police didn't check em very well, so they got away, so I couldn't say nothin about it. KC: You couldn't say.... hey, he's got a gun in his belt? Z: Nope. KC: Why not? Z: Cuz, it was like .. .I took off, they took off .. like two, three days later,Project I got picked up on Christmas morning, Christmas morning. I tried ta tell em, when it wasn't no use. Cuz it was past. So, they coulda, ya know what I'm sayin, hid the gun, threw the gun away. KC: Except they came and found your gun, they might of found his. Z: They wouldn't, they didn't find his. They found mine. KC: Who came and picked you up on Christmas morning? 24.3- Society Z: Sergeant Snyder an ah .. Ramsey County Sheriff ResearchJohn an Bob. They came in that morning, I was still sleepin. I woke up an I saw them, park in front a my house an then they jus came in .. so like that had somethin ta get me ... a warrant, somethin ta get me, so they came in, they asked me where was the gun, they gave me a couple chances, I told em.. .I finally told em that the gun was under the bed, so they Gangfound it an thas when I got charged with possession of firearm to 2nd degree assault. I was put on EJJ an I had urn .. 72 months hangin over my head. KC: What was your juvenile sentence? WhatHistorical did you have to do as a juvenile? Z: Juvenile I did .. .I serve two years in Iowa. KC: Where in Iowa? Youth Z: Clorinda KC: How was that? Z: It was alright at first, but then um... they jus.. .it wasn't...it didn't feel right ta be away from home for that long. But, I got use to it. Did my time down there, learned some lessons down there. Jus came backMinnesota home tryin ta be straight. 26.01 KC: WhatMinnesota did you learn in Clorinda? Z: Some things that urn .. wasn't real .... some was, learn how ta control my anger, all that. Um.. start thinking, realizin that bein in gang ain't right no more. Ain't worth bein locked up for. So, learn lot a things. Learn, lot a things. Learn how ta find a job, write a resume, applications an so one. Do a lot a stuff, sports. I was involved with cross country, soccer, baseball, ya know. Ya know what I'm sayin, jus... somethin that I learned down there. KC: Were there other Asians kids down there? Z: Yes, there was one a my cousin, he was a TMC. He was down there, too. An one a my ah ... old home boys big brother was down there.

KC: So you got over being angry at the TMC's? Z: Yes. I was like, it's not worth it no more. So, Ijus started listenin ta people, taking people's advice. Um .. cuz it wasn't worth it. Basically, it wasn't worth two years a my life down there, while I coulda been home with my family doin a lot a things. KC: How did they teach you that? That's something that we're looking at, how do we work with kids and help kids get out of it? What was it that they did that made you open your eyes and decide to learn it? Z: Thing is, if you want somebody to change you gotta give em time an you gotta ... you can't rush em, you can't be like orderin them. You gotta be polite, ya know what I'm sayin, be nice to em. Thas how I learned ta change, becuz I wouldn't like it or anybody wouldn't like it if somebody said - change, change, change, ya know what I'm sayin. You can't jus change right there an then, ya know what I'm sayin, takes time, ya know whatProject I'm sayin. You gotta be ... .I was put away from my house for two years, I learned ta, ya know what I'm saying, start communicating with people, gettin ta know people, ya know what I'm sayin, staff an ... I could talk to them about my problems. An they will understand jus, jus that you can't force nobody ta change. Ya gotta give em time, whatever, ya know. KC: So the fact that they were respectful an they kept working with you and coming back is what made the difference? Society Z: Yes. You get. .. get a little freedom like, ya knowResearch what I'm sayin. Ya get ta wear your own clothes, your shoes, whatever. Ya know what I'm sayin, go out, have fun, go watch a baseball game, or somethin. Ya know what I'm sayin, get staff, ya know what I'm sayin, they ... start talkin ta me, how am I doing? Whatever. KC: Were there any gang groups or anythingGang like that, that helped you examine the values of the gang and what you were getting out of it? Z: Ah ... .I don't understand that. Historical KC: Did you have any groups where you talked about what life was like in the gang? 29.33 Youth Z: Did I have any groups that .... KC: Did you have groups while you were down there? Z: Yes. We talk about consequences, all this an that. That um ... the victims, victims (unclear) an justify all this an that, we learn .. .I learn a lot basically when I was down there. It's jus that people learn things,Minnesota but if they don't use it, apply it then it won't work. An, there still in that mind frame that they still wanna gang bang, all this an that, then ain't no use a goin down there,Minnesota learning. But, jus think that when you were young, like when I was young, I was bein hardheaded, goin do this an that, but .... when you get, as you get older an you start learning, you start realizing that it's not worth it an thas somethin for people, ya know what I'm sayin, to understand, that when we're younger we still wanna have fun, all this an that. But, when we get older, it's time ta take care a business. KC: How long have you been out of Clorinda? Z: Urn ... almost a year, now. KC: How has your life been? How has it been different than it was before? 30.57

Z: Well, I been .. .! been tryin ta stay outa trouble, I been workin, ya know. Keep myself busy. I'm involved with programs, ya know what I'm sayin, that help me out. Positive support groups, ya know like ... my case workers, ya know what I'm sayin like people who usually come to you an ... they whenever you need some problems .... ya know what I'm saying, you can talk to them an ... an basically, I was with this one program for almost five years now. An, the other program, I volunteered becuz I needed help so Ijus... volunteer. KC: Which programs have you been in? Z: Well, Wilder South East Asian, thas the one I volunteered to ah ..... an (unclear) been with me for 4,5 years, now. An he very understandable, he knows who I am, he can trust me, I can trust him. Ty, Tigerson, I talk to him, when I first met him, I didn't trust him. I thought he was jus, ya know what I'm sayin, one a them people who jus come in, talkin it over with .... but, I got to know him better, he understands where I'm cominProject from. An, I understand where he's cornin from, an .... now, jus basically we got a close relationship, now, we can talk to each other about anything. KC: Does that really help those men in your life to be able to go and talk to? Z: Yes. It's jus .. .I'm glad that they're there to ah . .1isten to me when I need help. An, give me some advice, when I need help. 32.47 Society KC: Do you meet with them on any kind of a regularResearch basis? Z: Yes. I use to urn ... call em two times a week, or else on the weekend, like a Friday. Every Friday I call em, an let em know how I'm doing. Otherwise they come to my house an come meet with me an my family an talk about problems. How I been doin thas all. KC: Sounds like you been doin really well.Gang Z: I been doin very well, jus for this incident I'm in that .... .! feel that I didn't do nothin wrong. KC: And the reason you're in jail now, is justHistorical an incident where you ran into your old girlfriend and she told some stories. Z: Yes. She gave some falseYouth statement to the police, thas why I'm here. KC: How long have you been here? Z: Four week now. KC: So how is that affecting your job? Z: Ah, I got fired. Actually, I didn't get fired ...... yeah, I did get fired, basically. You could put it like that. Yes, I gotMinnesota fired for it, cuz I came ... .I got picked up by the police. KC: How do you feel about this? I mean, it sounds like you've been workin hard to get your life backMinnesota together. Z: I dunno, it's jus ... um . .it'sjus that when I go back home, Ijus gotta go find another job. Thas all I could do. I can't go back an say I was picked up becuz a this an this. I jus gotta continue on with life an go find other jobs anyways. 34.30 KC: When do you go to court for this, so you can clean it all up? Z: Ah, I go to court this Wednesday or this Thursday. So, I should be go in home on house arrest. KC: Why on house arrest?

Z: Um .. depending on trial. So, ifI .. .ifum... this trial, this hearing . .ifum. .I'm not found guilty, yeah I go home on house arrest. An then go home on house arrest an wait for another court trial. KC: How come another court trial? Z: I dunno, they want me .. .1 dunno, there's like, I dunno it's jus hard. Two is plenty, it's jus like .. .1 think they wanna find me guilty or not guilty. There not done investigating yet. 35.30 KC: Have you been seeing any of the other old friends in Hmong Pride? Z: Oh, I sees them around. It jus, I talk to em I say - waz up? How they doin all this an that, but ... when I get done talkin to them, it's jus like, I gotta go do somethin, I gotta go to work. An so - I'll see you all later. An they jus like, they don't, they don't say nothin. Maybe when I'm not around they talk behind my back like ... yeah, he's ... he's not Projectfaithful, he's not resp ... whatever. I don't care no more. KC: It's been my understanding in the Asian gangs, if you needed to get out because you got married; or because your family was going to disown you; or because there was a ... the law said if you affiliated you'd get in more trouble, that they just let you go and respect that. 36.40 Z: Thas how .. .it still is like that, too. You get married you out ofSociety it. Ifyou're .... you jus wanna get out, then you jus gonna have to go through a littleResearch some, some .... little talk with the people there. KC: Did you go through the talk? Z: I went through talk with some people. They were like, you ain't gonna hang around with us, be true to us, then don't be hangin withGang us or kickin with us no more. Jus like, alright. Some people, jus like .... they wanna kill me an stuff, but .. .I dunno. KC: Why do some people wanna kill you? Historical Z: Jus becuz I don't um . .I'm not with them to help them out, somethin like that. KC: Who did you have to goYouth and talk to? Z: I talked to a lot a people. Jus basically all the Hmong Prides people. KC: Did you like ask them to call a meeting so you could go talk to them and tell them why you couldn't hang out? Z: Ah .. .Ijus, not I didn't...itjus likewe ... there's a place where they hang out, ya know what I'm sayin, at the park, whatever.Minnesota An I jus go there, I jus like - hey, I'm over with. An they jus like, thas cool, ya know what I'm sayin, jus don't be clairnin our set; don't be talkin about us; don'tMinnesota have us in your mouth, whatever, our name in your mouth no more, thas all. KC: You started that organization. How did that feel, when they said that? Z: I dunno. I don't really care. Cuz, it's somethin that I started an .. helped start. It ain't nothin, now. I don't feel nothin. Jus feel like, I dunno what ta say. I dunno how you explain it, it jus don't mean nothin to me no more. I jus learn how to get over with .... with it. 39.08 KC: Was it hard at any point? Z: Sometime, yeah. I still like, I wanna be with em all this an that, but.. .. but always thinkin about my consequences about bein with em.

KC: Sounds like that when you were at Clorinda it was a very life changing experience for you. 39.37 Z: Yes, it's jus that I'm glad that I was down there, cuz I almost got killed before I was down there. Got into a little war with TMC so an so, ya know what I'm sayin. Got shot in my chest, bullet ended out a my back. An got shot in my knee .... my calf an .... KC: How long before ... you must have been hospitalized? Z: Yes. KC: When did this happen? Z: It was long time ago. KC: Where you a Hmong Pride then? Z: Yes, back in '95. KC: So you got shot in the chest and in the knee. Project Z: Yeah. KC: Whew, where did it happen? Z: It jus.. .1 don't even remember no more. 40.40 KC: Did that help promote the anger towards TMC? Z: Yes. Society KC: You started telling me about your chemical use.Research How often would you smoke marijuana? Z: Back then I smoked every ... bout, every night. Gettin high every day. Twenty-four, seven. KC: So basically you'd be smokin all the time. You'd wake up and you'd start smokin, you were smokin all the time? Z: Yep. Gang KC: Did you drink all the time, too? 41115 Historical Z: I'd drink here an there, I'm not alcoholic. KC: When you'd drink, howYouth much would you drink? Z: Probably about six, seven cans, thas it. KC: How many, would you smoke blunts. Z: Couple blunts, two blunts most. Two or three blunts. KC: Two, three blunts at a time? How many could you smoke in a day? Z: A lot. Minnesota KC: Eight? Ten? Z: We'dMinnesota smoke ounces, pounds, whatever. KC: So in other words, like every hour you'd smoke a couple blunts an just keep yourself high all the time. Z: Thas how it was back then. KC: How many years did you do that? Z: Ever since I was bout 13, 12, somethin like that. Smokin joints an then I met people who smoked blunts an then started smokin blunts. An then got use to it, smoke it every day, every hour on the dot. KC: So for about five years you were just plain high all the time?

Z: Thas basically how it was. KC: Are you still back to smokin now? Z: No. I quit that stuff like when I was locked up in Clorinda. 42.37 KC: And you're on probation. Who is your probation officer? Z: Back then it was Tony Vang. KC: Who is it now? Z: Ah .. KC: Joe Arborson or Lon Keng? Z: (unclear) KC: Ok, I'm not gonna talk to him. I was just...cuz most ofthe Asian kids are on the same ... so you have your own special probation officer? Project Z: Yes. KC: Congratulations. What did you get out of the gang? What purpose did it serve for you? Z: Why did I get into a gang? KC: What did the gang give you? Being in the gang. Z: All it is now with the gang ... back then, jus wanna be popular. Be famous, basically. Be known that you're Mr. Hardcore so nobody come an mess wichSociety you, whatever. KC: Were you popular and famous? Research Z: Back then, yes. I'm still is, little bit. KC: So you still have a reputation? 44.02 Z: Yes. Gang KC: Are you proud of it? Z: Nope, not no more. Back then, yeah. I beHistorical like ... I be walkin around be like everybody know me an nobody wanna, ya know what I'm sayin, come an mess with me no more. So, I don't worry about that. Youth KC: How did you family react to all your gang involvement? Z: My family. My rna, she ... she would like tell me that my friends, whatever, they ain't worth it, they jus gettin me in trouble, but I never took that advice. 44.45 KC: Where were you born?Minnesota Z: St. Paul, Minnesota. Ramsey Hospital. KC: SoMinnesota you were born in St. Paul, so your family'S been here for a long time? Z: Yes. They came to the United States in the 70's, during the Vietnam War. KC: Did they ever disown you when you got real involved? Z: My mom kicked me outa the house, but I'm like ... kick me outa the house, I be gone for months an months an when I came back they be like, come stay home. Then when I get locked up , they would like come out. KC: So they've always been able to support you though it? Z: Urn ... not really. 45.40

KC: Not really. Z: My mom don't like what I been doing, but sometime she deal with it. Sometime she get tired of it, she jus like ... kick me outa the house. An I be like sure I be ... .I jus be gone out playin for like weeks an weeks an never come home. KC: One of the questions I asked you friend that I saw a couple weeks ago was, I know there's a lot of concern in the Hmong community about all the kids in gangs. What can be done? What do parents need to do? What could your parents have done? 46.3- Z: For this, just that parents don't understand how us youth feels. Ya know they say that they know how we feel, but they don't in reality. An they sometimes, they some people like, their parents be like blaming them for their little brothers or their older brothers actions an they get tired of it, so they be like - hey, you're always blamin me, or youProject never listen to me or understand where I'm comin from then. Screw ya all then. An thas where people start goin to the gangs, becuz it's like people .... youth, the gangs, ya know what I'm sayin, we're all in the same predicament, we understand where each other coming from an thas ..... an then we talk it out, ya know what I'm sayin. Start havin feelins for each other, started carin or each other like - yeah, I know where you're comin from, you're sayin your mom's like this, like that. An sayin, jus come with us, we would, whatever. SocietyI jus wanna say, ya know to parents ... they can't. .. ya know .. they shouldn't jumpResearch on their kids like that, ya know what I'm sayin. Like, I knew a lot a parents, they jump on the kids for every little thing that they do wrong, an thas not right. Ya know what I'm sayin, give a little freedom too, least...ya know what I'm sayin, be on the phone, go outside, ya know what I'm sayin. But, it's like the parents don't even want them go outsideGang or talk on the phone. Thas how people get tired, kids, youth (unclear) we can't even talk on the phone or we can't go outside, what the heck, ya know what I'm sayin. I might as wellHistorical run away an join a gang. Go live with, ya know what I'm sayin, these people, whatever. An then there's OG's that, ya know what I'm sayin, they rent apartments, houseYouth ... people who got problems, they go live with em an thas when people start comin an sayin, why we have gangs?, why gangs doin this, doin that? But, ya know what I'm sayin, it really falls back on the parents, too, ya know what I'm sayin, for not tryin ta understand where we comin from, basically. KC: You describe it well. It sounds to me like parents are too strict. 49.10 Minnesota Z: Thas true. Thas true, basically they're jus being strict, ya know what I'm sayin, like I Minnesotaknow a lot a people an they're sayin ..••• they'lIlisten to their parents that they won't go outside, but ... they won't even go outside, but what you spose ta do in the house, twenty-four/seven, you jus gonna sit in your room doin nothin. Listen to •... it gets bored, it gets old. They wanna call some friends up an talk to em, how they doin, too, ya know what I'm sayin. But, it seems like the parents don't even let them talk on the phone, so thas how gangs start, runaway start, people start do in a lot a things. Thas why the worlds like this in the Hmong community. KC: Do you have younger brothers and sisters? Z: I have a younger brother.

KC: Is he affiliated? Z: Ah ... right now he startin to be in the wrong crowd, yes. KC: Can you redirect him? Can you spend the time with him so he has something to do and yet doesn't go get in the gang? Z: I do, I do spend some time with him when I'm at home. Talk to him, ya know what I'm sayin, jus as long as he don't go an get in trouble, don't go steal, go shoot nobody. I don't have no problem with it. He can smoke cigarettes, he can do whatever, but jus as long as he don't go out there an be with the wrong crowd. Thas all. KC: You refer to mom, was dad at home? Z: Ah, my mom ... .I live with my mom only. My dad, he deceased, ya know what I'm sayin, so it's like .. .I'm the oldest child, so I look out for my little brother. KC: How old is your little brother? Project Z: He's only 14. He's pretty big now, he's six feet tall, bout 150 pounds. 51.09 KC: Whoa. Z: He's taller than I am, I'm only 5'9",5'10". KC: That's very tall for Hmong. Z: Yes. I don't know how got to be ... he use ta be little fat, chubbySociety little kid. He use ta be a good boy, now he's jus like he's all tall, he changed.Research He's taller than I am, he's um .. he'sjus, I dunno. He's still good boy. I tell em go to school, he go ta school, ya know what I'm sayin. He listen to whatever I say. I give em respect, he give me respect, ya know what I'm sayin. I give em ...• Iike I said, my ma, I know my mom yeUs at him. I be like, mom don't yell at him, ya know what I'mGang sayin, jus talk to em .• Ya know what I'm sayin, thas ... thas how people should work it out in their family. Talk it out, instead a yellin at each other, for somethin stupid. ThasHistorical how people get angry at their parents, they don't give a care, so they jus screw you ofT, so I'm gonna do whatever I want. 52.23 Youth KC: You've been though a lot. It sounds like you've got some really good advice to give kids. Z: Yes, I...I plan two years an I work, ya know what I'm sayin, further my education an go to college. An, ya know what I'm sayin, workin in social .... work with youth an become a youth worker. I mean, help the youth out, ya know what I'm sayin, the Hmong community. Thas what I wanna be whenMinnesota I .... KC: That's great. I think there's a new organization called CHAD? Z: Yes.Minnesota KC: Isn't that young people helping young people? Z: Yes. KC: What do you think of that organization? Z: I was involved with that group, but I got a little incident with them thas why I'm here. With the Vice President an one a them board members, so thas why I'm here. KC: That's why you're here, here? Z: Yeah. KC: So, other than the Vice President and one of their board members, what do you think of

them? Z: They're pretty alright. Jus that...ta be truthful, some ofthem are helpful, but the rest they jus like crooked. I'll tell you that right now. KC: What does that mean? Z: They tell people, young kids, to go, ya know what I'm sayin, ta school, whatever. But, when they offjob, then they go do, ya know what I'm sayin, what's not right. An I know it, becuz I was with em. 54.11

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