Transcript: Interview

Angus Robertson MP on the Scottish Referendum

16 July 2014

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2 Angus Robertson MP on the Scottish Referendum

Question

I’m Francis Grove-White, government and media relations officer at Chatham House. I’m here with Angus Robertson MP, the ’s Westminster Parliamentary Group leader, spokesperson for foreign affairs and defence. We just came out of a roundtable discussion on the foreign policy implications of the Scottish referendum. Perhaps I could begin by asking you, Angus, what role you think an independent Scotland could play internationally?

Angus Robertson

The first advantage for Scotland being an independent state just like any other normal country is that we will have elected our parliament and our government, so we will be pursuing the policies that the people actually wish to see pursued. For me, it’s extremely important that we’re able to determine the optimal foreign policy, defence and security policy, and international development party. This is outlined in quite a lot of detail in the ’s white paper on independence and is easily downloadable on the internet.

In terms of Scotland’s role in the international community: first off, we live in an interdependent world, so playing our part constructively as neighbours and allies is absolutely at the top of the list. Our most important partners are the rest of the United Kingdom and then, in a European Union context, we are very keen to play an active and positive role, which is in marked contrast to that which we often see from Westminster politicians. Very keen to work in an international, foreign and defence context with our NATO allies as a non-nuclear-hosting conventional state. So in effect pursuing the same policy as Norway or Denmark.

In international development, we are very, very keen to enshrine the 0.7 per cent target, something of course the United Kingdom signed up to in 1970 and has still not fulfilled that as a commitment. So we’re very keen to do that from the off.

So in conclusion, determining our own government; determining the policy that we actually wish to see; being an active partner, a good citizen, both in terms of foreign policy, European policy, defence, international development policy.

I think one really important note in all of this is understanding where is Scotland. We are a northern European country and we must address the big challenges that we face in northern Europe in our own backyard, and the biggest changes are environmental. Those are the changes in the Arctic and high north, the impact on all of us in northern Europe. The UK has not taken this issue seriously. It will be absolutely at the top of the list for Scottish government ministers in a sovereign Scotland.

Question

You touched there on the intention to seek membership in international fora such as NATO and the European Union. Do you foresee any difficulties arising when it comes to joining these institutions, not least given the timescale of 18 months between the referendum itself and the proposed date of Scottish independence in March 2016? 3 Angus Robertson MP on the Scottish Referendum

Angus Robertson

We vote on the 18th of September this year, 2014, but the intention is not to declare independence unilaterally. Scotland will remain within the UK for another 18 months, until 2016, when Scotland will emerge from the UK as a sovereign state. In those intervening 18 months we will be working with our friends in the rest of the UK about our interrelationship post-sovereignty, but also how we manage that transition for both of us within the context of all international organizations and bodies that we’re part of. There’s no interest in a discontinuity in membership, whether for the European Union for economic reasons or for NATO in a security context, for any gap in membership for either Scotland or the rest of the UK.

There are administrative changes that will be required for both of us in all of these international organizations but we’re confident, given the conversations that we’ve had, that we’ll be able to manage the transition in that timescale. The UK government’s own legal adviser on this very question has said that the timescale is realistic. Given that it’s in our interests, we will manage it.

That there will be differences of view along the way, I have no doubt, but it seems to me that after making a decision in favour of yes and sovereignty, it is in all of our interests that we take a grownup approach. We want the best for one another. The difference is that we will be governing ourselves from closer to home. We will continue to live in the same island. We’ll continue to have the same head of state. We want to continue using the same currency. In many respects the social union that we all enjoy, share and value will remain as it is. It’s about changing the way we govern ourselves and the architecture around that, and it seems after a yes decision there will be a grownup approach to making sure this all works as best as it can.

Question

We’ve talked about what you feel Scotland would stand to gain from independence. I wonder if you think there are any areas in which Scotland might lose out following separation from the rest of the UK.

Angus Robertson

I think there’s a downside to all decisions. I’m perfectly happy to concede that with a yes vote there is a potential downside, and that is an independent Scotland will be responsible for the decisions that it takes, and quite naturally one doesn’t always make the right decision. So the downside of the responsibility is you may make the wrong decisions. 4 Angus Robertson MP on the Scottish Referendum

However, I would say on balance, with responsibility and understanding that the challenges one faces closer to home – because after all, the people best placed to make decisions about where they live surely are the people who live there – given all that, I think on balance we will make better decisions across the piece. Will there be decisions along the way that are suboptimal? Possibly, probably. Do I think that’s a reason for voting no? No, I don’t. You would never tell anybody else don’t be responsible, don’t make decisions, don’t try and chart the optimal course for yourself, your family, your community, your country. That’s what this is all about.

I think it’s a profoundly exciting and historic opportunity for us in Scotland. Yeah, people can choose to look at the glass and say it’s half-empty. You’d be hard pressed to find a country in the world which has as much going for it as Scotland does, and so that’s why I’m not prepared to accept the proposition that we are uniquely too weak, too poor, too stupid, to manage what everybody else does successfully. I think we’ll do just fine and it will be to the benefit of people in the rest of the UK too that Scotland is responsible for itself, makes better decisions, is more economically successful, is more socially just. That is better for the whole of this island than continuing to operate in the political system that is not delivering for Scotland and arguably is not delivering for many people in the rest of the UK too.

Question

What do you see as being the consequences of a no vote? After such a result, what would be the SNP’s long-term ambitions?

Angus Robertson

With any democratic choice, of course there’s a possibility of either outcome. I’m firmly of a view that we will vote in favour of Scottish independence, there will be a yes vote. People will grab this historic opportunity of a lifetime and vote in the box for yes, because it’s an optimistic, forward-looking option.

Is it possible that there is a no majority? It’s possible. I would just observe that not a single political party in Scotland is now saying they’re in favour of the status quo. They all say there needs to be change. So the one thing that seems assured out of this referendum campaign, quite apart from having a really important discussion in Scotland about how we want to be governed, how we want our public services delivered, our sense of ourselves in the UK and Europe and the world – all of which has been a positive – I think we will look back, regardless of the result, and say that people concluded that the status quo is not sustainable.

What that means in concrete terms I think will depend on the actual result, in terms of the percentages. Most of the UK parties have at different times made all kinds of promises. We famously, infamously, remember the Conservatives urging voters in Scotland to vote no to devolution in 1979 and made a promise to bring something better along. Well, we had Thatcherism for 18 years and that was not better, and we had no devolution under the Tories. So you’ll forgive us for our cynicism about promises from Westminster politicians who seem to just want to buy us off – please vote no and we’ll bring something along better. They haven’t produced any detailed plans whatsoever. 5 Angus Robertson MP on the Scottish Referendum

However, I think there is a realization that the status quo is not sustainable, that the best way to ensure that we have the normal tools of every other normal country is to vote yes in the referendum in Scotland on the 18th of September this year.

Question

So in the event of a no vote, we might be looking at another referendum in 10 or 15 years’ time?

Angus Robertson

I think that Scotland’s independence is inevitable because of the shortcomings in the political system in the UK. The SNP has played its part in helping deliver greater autonomy to Scotland. The choice in this referendum is, are we in favour of Scotland becoming an independent country? That will give ourselves 100 per cent decision-making power. The other parties are suggesting they’re not in favour of the status quo anymore but they’ve not provided the detail of what that actually means.

I think in the event of a no vote, which is not actually what I think will happen, but were it to be the case, I think everybody accepts there is going to be an extremely high percentage of people in Scotland who actually want Scotland to be independent. In those circumstances, there has to be soul-searching and head-scratching in Whitehall about what one actually does. The fact that people made all kinds of prophecies about autonomy killing the SNP or Scottish nationalism stone dead – well, it’s a funny stone dead to be providing the only majority government anywhere in the UK, which is the SNP administration in the , forming the Scottish government. That’s very far from stone dead. The opinion polls show that we’re polling in the mid-40s at the present time, which is one of the strongest showings for any political party anywhere in Europe. So we’re doing something right.

So regardless of the referendum result, we’re not going away. There are a great many people in Scotland who want our country to be governed better, more democratic, delivering for people, so we don’t have the level of social division that we have in the UK, so our economy can compete both at home and internationally. None of these things will go away. The choice will be whether we choose to have the whole toolkit to get on with the job of sorting out all these deficiencies and put ourselves in a better situation or, in the context of a no vote, whether the Westminster parties will agree that there should be greater autonomy for Scotland. But we would have to wait and see, and past record doesn’t give me a lot of hope on those matters. All of which are reasons why I’m embracing a yes vote on the 18th of September.

Question

Angus Robertson MP, thank you very much.