Vol. 181 Thursday, No. 16 10 November 2005

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Thursday, 10 November 2005.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1333 Order of Business …………………………………1333 Social Welfare Consolidation Bill 2005: Motion ………………………1346 Shot at Dawn Campaign: Motion……………………………1346 Ferns Report: Statements ………………………………1346 Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005: Committee and Remaining Stages ……………1380 Adjournment Matters: Dublin Port Tunnel ………………………………1386 School Opening Hours ……………………………1390 1333 1334

SEANAD E´ IREANN and will be taken without debate. No. 3, state- ments on the Ferns report, will be taken at the ———— conclusion of the Order of Business until 1.30 p.m, with the contributions of all Senators not to De´ardaoin, 10 Samhain 2005. exceed 15 minutes and the Minister to be called Thursday, 10 November 2005. upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of the statements. We have set ———— aside more time to discuss the Ferns report next week depending on what happens today. No. 4, Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005 — Com- 10.30 a.m. mittee Stage, to be taken at 2 p.m. and to con- clude not later than 3.30 p.m. There will be a sos ———— from 1.30 p.m until 2 p.m. Paidir. Prayer. Mr. B. Hayes: I am grateful to the Leader of the House and party leaders for putting No. 2 on ———— the agenda so swiftly and agreeing this matter unanimously before Armistice Day, ensuring that a strong signal is sent from this House to the Brit- Business of Seanad. ish Government. An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Yesterday, the British Government outlined its Senator Finucane that on the motion for the proposals to deal with a sensitive matter that has Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to been part and parcel of the ongoing peace dis- raise the following matter: cussions for four years, namely, the “on the runs”, those who were convicted or not convicted of ter- The need for the Minister for Health and rorist offences in both jurisdictions in the past 35 Children to outline the financial and manpower years who are no longer in Northern Ireland or assistance which the Health Service Executive here. This is a sensitive issue that has been will be providing for the new radiotherapy unit flagged since the Weston Park talks and which at the Limerick Regional Hospital and whether had to be addressed. those who attend for radiotherapy treatment as public patients will receive appropriate finan- When we deal with it, however, we should be cial assistance from the Health Service well aware of the considerable pain it will cause Executive. for the victims of terrorist violence on all sides of the equation in Northern Ireland and here. Both I have also received notice from Senator Browne Houses should send a strong signal to the para- of the following matter: militaries that they have a responsibility to let The need for the Minister for Education and back into Northern Ireland those many hundreds Science to clarify the current position concern- of people they banished over the past 35 years ing the opening hours of primary schools and who are afraid to return. Could the Minister for access by children to the school building before Justice, Equality and Law Reform come into the the formal opening time. House to make a statement on this matter? The British Government has proposed a tri- I have also received notice from Senator bunal that would, in each case of a person on the Morrissey of the following matter: run who returns to Northern Ireland, find him or The need for the Minister for Transport to her guilty or not guilty and then free the person specify the European directive under which on licence, whereas our Government has pro- vehicle heights may be unilaterally reduced by posed an eligibility board to determine if an indi- an EU member state, without consultation, in vidual will be pardoned. The two Governments light of the ongoing public debate about access have different approaches and I would like to to the Dublin Port tunnel. hear why the Government has chosen this route I regard the matters raised by the Senators as as opposed to the informal criminal route which suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and would at least attach guilt where no conviction they will be taken at the conclusion of business. had initially occurred. The House should look at this matter in the next two weeks.

Order of Business. Mr. O’Toole: Sir Reg Empey made clear yes- Ms O’Rourke: The Order of Business is Nos. terday the views of the loyalist and Unionist com- 1, 2, 3 and 4. No. 1 is a procedural motion to allow munity in the North on politicians elected to the for the taking of the Social Welfare Northern Ireland Assembly or to Westminster (Consolidation) Bill 2005 on Tuesday, 15 from Northern Ireland having speaking rights in November 2005 and will be taken without debate. this Parliament. We should discuss this idea in the No. 2 is a motion on the Shot at Dawn Campaign cold light of day. I am completely opposed to it. 1335 Order of 10 November 2005. Business 1336

[Mr. O’Toole.] Mr. McCarthy: I am about to do that. Unlike However, I wish to distinguish between my views the cavity block, I am a bit full. on this issue and opposition to Sinn Fe´in. I wel- come Sinn Fe´in’s involvement in national politics An Cathaoirleach: On the Order of Business, but there are serious issues that need to be Senator. addressed. I ask the Leader to allow Members go on the record on that, not in a polemical fashion Mr. McCarthy: A number of advertisements but in a way that outlines how politics works. are being run in this morning’s newspapers by the Members are representative of the people who Department of Agriculture and Food. They call elect them to Parliament, and they are respon- on those who are involved in any way with the sible for their area. I would like a debate on the poultry trade to register and advise them of their problems this would create in the community in obligations under the Diseases of Animals Act Northern Ireland, without people rushing in to 1966 and registration of poultry flocks audit 2005. take up a pro or anti-Sinn Fe´in position. It is a It also advises those who are involved in rearing question of parliamentary representation and the turkeys for local consumption, especially coming way it should work. up to the Christmas season. I accept fully the I want to raise also an issue that has given me need to have a register of these people in the face cause for concern. In the past week the OECD of the serious threat of avian influenza but I am report was published, and we made reference to it concerned about two issues. The first is that we here in the House, which states that Irish housing may have over-regulation when this issue passes. stock is probably 15% over-valued. If we take Second, I do not want a repeat of what we saw that as a starting point and recognise that a Euro- recently where the Revenue Commissioners pean directive comes into play in January which examined cases involving people who had will cover issues such as insulation requirement invested in insurance policies. In many cases the in houses and the fact that in the greater Dublin maturity of the policies did not match the penal- area we have built approximately 225,000 cavity ties they received because some of the money block houses in the past eight or nine years, none invested in those policies was found not to be of which will complies with the directive that will subject to the routine tax regulations. The Rev- be issued from Europe in January. Apparently, enue Commissioners looked into those insurance builders are looking forward to a period of grace in which they will not have to comply with that policies and then penalised people. I would be directive until, say, the end of 2007 if they have very concerned that the Revenue Commissioners already applied for planning permission. This would use this register to delve into cases where measure will consign thousands of young couples people have small land holdings and very small to buying houses which will not be unsaleable but poultry enterprises for local consumption and go will be the last to be sold. To put it simply, it after them, so to speak, in the same manner in means that from January of next year every house which they went after the people with insurance that comes on the market will have to get a rating policies. for insulation, and I assure the House that is the Another aspect of the advertisement that sur- way the market will work. I would like to have prises me is that people are advised to get the a debate with the Minister for the Environment, application form for registration either from the Heritage and Local Government as to how we Department website or the local agricultural can approach that issue. office. Not everybody is competent in terms of e- I would also like to know the reason Dublin is mail and using the Internet and not everybody the only area in the country where cavity block has access to it. I repeat the point I made in the housing continues to be built. I thought it ended House recently on publicjobs.ie. The most recent in the rest of the country 30 years ago. In simple Garda recruitment campaign was only accessible terms, it is almost impossible to insulate a cavity to potential applicants through publicjobs.ie. That block house except with a very expensive wall was a significant recruitment drive in that for the cladding, which destroys everything within the first time it included non-nationals but I thought house. This is a serious issue which will affect the it was a little restrictive. The least that should next generation. It is a problem we are facing now have been done was to allow the dual method of but which we have been aware of for the past hard copy and on-line application. The avail- eight years. I want to know the reason for that. ability of on-line application is to be welcomed but we must be cognisant of the fact that not Mr. McCarthy: I thought Senator O’Toole was everybody has access to it. a brick; now he is a cavity block. Is the statement made yesterday by Deputy Liz O’Donnell in the Lower House official Govern- An Cathaoirleach: On the Order of Business, ment policy? I am a little fed up with dual Senator. If the Senator does not want to contrib- Government and Opposition roles from some ute on the Order of Business he should resume members of the Government in the Lower House his seat. in particular. 1337 Order of 10 November 2005. Business 1338

A Senator: Hear, hear. I had not intended to speak about the matter of the churches but I will now that it has been Mr. McCarthy: I would like to know if Deputy raised. My party, the Progressive Democrats, has O’Donnell was speaking in terms of official always adopted the position that on matters of Government policy. this nature we can express our personal views. We are not bound by a party Whip. Mr. O’Toole: We have seen it before in—— An Cathaoirleach: Senator Dardis—— Mr. B. Hayes: It is creeping in here too. Mr. Norris: It is very healthy. Mr. Norris: Good for her. Mr. Dardis: The question has been raised and Mr. Dardis: It would be appropriate for us to I think I am entitled to answer it, a Chathaoirligh. have a full debate on the situation in Northern Ireland. There has been a reluctance, because of Mr. Norris: Yes. events, to discuss the matter here but we have a good record in the House and in this period of Mr. Dardis: My view is that all the churches relative calm we probably should discuss it and should be the same as the farming organisations, the reasons for that are twofold. The first is the the trade unions and any other body in this coun- matter raised by Senator Brian Hayes and the try. They should have access to these Houses to other is the one raised by Senator O’Toole. We put their views. We accept or reject their views all regard it as distasteful to see people on the and we move on. That is what is being done by run being given a concession whereby they can the various committees of these Houses. I accept return but we must accept that this was part of the right of the churches to make their represen- the Agreement; there are many parts of the tations here provided they do it openly. There Agreement that each group of people found dis- must be accountability in any organisation, be it a tasteful but to which they nevertheless signed up. church or otherwise, and collective responsibility I am prepared to accept it on that basis but applies with regard to the matters that caused so Senator Hayes made a good point about people much pain for so many people in dioceses who were forced out of the country by the actions throughout the country. of paramilitaries, and that aspect should be exam- ined carefully. If those people wish to come back Mr. Finucane: The House will debate the Ferns to their communities they should be able to do report later today and Members will have an so. There is another dimension to it and that is opportunity to raise these issues but I listened to with regard to people who were killed and whose Archbishop Martin yesterday morning and he bodies were never found. The paramilitaries on gave a very responsible type of interview. The both sides have a serious obligation to do what- church is trying to respond to the crisis in which ever they can to ensure that the loved ones of it finds itself and in that regard it is not right to those who were summarily executed can be kick its members while they are down. They recovered. should be given a reasonable chance. They are With regard to the matter raised by Senator trying to respond to what happened in the past. O’Toole about members of the Northern There are many responsible members of the Assembly speaking in this House, these issues church. have been discussed by the committee on Seanad In 2000, BreastCheck was rolled out for the reform and also by the All-Party Committee on east coast. There is now an excessive waiting list the Constitution and the views are in the public nationally for mammograms. Cancer is a major domain. I share the Senator’s views on the issue cause of fear for people. but the Seanad is a possible vehicle whereby I ask that the Ta´naiste and Minister for Health there can be an audience for those people, and and Children, Deputy Harney, consider rolling that is different from being represented here this out earlier than 2007. The funding is there on because the question of representation without a national basis, we have a buoyant economy and taxation remains a valid one. we must deal with this issue as soon as possible. The other matter I want to raise is the World Senator Glynn has mentioned that men are Trade Organisation talks and the curious position often forgotten in this regard. Something should taken up by Commissioner Mandelson, who be done on a national basis about prostate cancer, appears to have sold the past before we even got which has become an increasing area of concern. into the talks. Farming accepted a very painful A very simple test will resolve that situation. The CAP reform package on the basis that it would Minister could examine this area and show some position the Union for the talks and now they enlightenment. appear to have been sold down the river to some extent. That issue must be discussed on the floor Mr. Mooney: I join with Senator Brian Hayes of the House. in welcoming the agreement by all Members on 1339 Order of 10 November 2005. Business 1340

[Mr. Mooney.] must prepare for a new regime and try to give it the motion to be taken without debate regarding some advice. the Shot at Dawn Campaign. It is a worthy motion and the alacrity with which it was agreed An Cathaoirleach: Briefly. by all sides is to be commended. I thank Senator Brian Hayes for his gracious reference to my Mr. Norris: I will be as brief as I can, however, question on that matter before the British-Irish we run to 45 minutes every day. I have a motion Interparliamentary Body. He too has a question on the Order Paper suggesting we recognise this and I hope we will reflect the pain of the families fact. It has been opposed by some people of those who were shot at dawn. It is significant although there is general agreement. that this motion is before the House in a week when, for the first time, the Irish tricolour flew An Cathaoirleach: On the Order of Business. alongside the union jack in Derry in a shared ceremony of remembrance. It included relatives Ms O’Rourke: That has nothing to do with us. of the youngest soldier to be killed in action, Private John Condon, from Waterford. It was a Mr. Norris: I could not speak more directly on very emotional experience for them. the Order of Business. This is the tenth anniver- This opens the wider debate on Northern sary of the murder by the Nigerian authorities of Ireland, which I support. It opens an important Ken Saro-Wiwa and eight other Ogoni activists dimension in the improving relations between who were protesting against the environmental Britain and Ireland, the two communities in devastation of the region by Shell Oil. I was a Northern Ireland and the two communities north member of the foreign affairs committee when and south of the Border. It is a significant event Des O’Malley was Chairman, and he was a good which is to be welcomed and encouraged. I ask Chairman. When we planned to visit Nigeria the the Leader that this House consider having one Nigerian authorities told us to apply through minute’s silence each year on Armistice Day in Shell for a visa. In the case of the Corrib gas pipe- the context of the warmer and closer relations line and the Shell to Sea people we have again and the breaking down of prejudices between the been lickspittling. We must examine operations communities and to recognise the high casualty such as Shell, which has devastated the envir- rate and the pain suffered during the First onment. While it has a cosmetic campaign of World War. environmentally friendly advertisements and invests in organisations such as National Geo- Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. graphic, it is a dangerous company. I agree with Senator O’Toole about building industry standards, which this House should Mr. Mooney: Perhaps this is not the correct examine. To balance that, I am proud of the 700 time but I intend to write to the Committee on Irish building workers and Niall Mellon who went Procedure and Privileges to consider if this is the to South Africa at their own expense to build proper procedure, and I will be guided by it. houses in the townships for the South African Once again the world has woken up to another deprived. atrocity in Amman. As foreign affairs spokes- person I ask the Leader, and I believe that I Senators: Hear, hear. speak for the House, to convey the sympathy of the Irish people to King Abdullah and the people Mr. Norris: We can be proud of those types of of Jordan on another atrocity in what was tra- Irish people in the building industry. ditionally a safe haven despite its close proximity to Iraq. There had never before been this type of An Cathaoirleach: Ten Senators are offering atrocity in Jordan and this House should con- and only ten minutes remain so I ask Senators to demn it. be brief.

Mr. Norris: I support Senator Mooney. We Mr. Morrissey: This morning the people of should have a debate on the Middle East. Up to Galway woke up to another unofficial strike by 70 people may have been tragically killed in workers in Bus E´ ireann. While this Government Amman. I have stayed in that hotel, as have many is investing unprecedented amounts of money in Irish delegations. Another 35 people were killed a ten-year transport plan, much of it in public today in Baghdad. It is clear that Bush and Blair transport, we should discuss bus deregulation. My are on the slide. They are responsible for this. party has always said that reform must come with They walked us into it but we must prepare for a investment. Bus capacity problems can be solved situation when a more intelligent government by subcontracting to the private sector, which may take office in both jurisdictions. I am glad receives no subsidy for its operations or bus Blair was defeated in the House of Commons yes- purchase. terday. I am glad the American Republican Party I agree with Senator O’Toole’s comments on has started to lose governorship races but we building regulations. Homeowners have been 1341 Order of 10 November 2005. Business 1342 refused the \3,000 first-time buyer’s grant Government to co-operate with Mr. Justice because of the materials used in some Dublin Barron’s inquiry? This is overdue and I would apartments. I want to see what redress those welcome the leaders taking the initiative. It would people have through HomeBond. We must have the support of all Members of this House. address the issue of quality in the building industry. Dr. Henry: I observed last week that there has Mr. Coghlan: It is time we heard the Minister been no satisfactory resolution to the election in for Communications, Marine and Natural Ethiopia, where there are many Irish Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, on his 11 o’clock observers. Some of them contacted communications strategy and the roll-out of me to impart the perception in that broadband of which there has been much talk. country that there is not much international We should not forget that some people are interest in what is happening there. Many awaiting a basic telephone service so they can members of the opposition have been imprisoned conduct normal business and contact the emer- without trial and lives have been lost as the gency services. armed forces use their weapons against unarmed citizens on the streets. Given that Ethiopia is one Mr. Dardis: The Black Valley. of our priority countries in sub-Saharan Africa, will the Leader agree to a debate on this as soon Mr. Coghlan: This is a classic example of priv- as possible? This House could be influential in atisation leaving rural communities behind such ensuring Ethiopians are aware that other states as the people of the remote but beautiful Black have a strong interest in the situation there and Valley near the Gap of Dunloe at the foot of Car- are concerned about what is happening. We rantuohill and the MacGillycuddy Reeks in should urge the Ethiopian Government and County Kerry. opposition to try to resolve this dreadful situation peacefully. An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator seek a debate? Ms Cox: Will the Leader arrange a debate on the issue raised yesterday by Senator MacSharry Mr. Coghlan: The Cathaoirleach would agree in regard to recruitment agencies? The Employ- that this is discrimination and must be redressed. ment Agency Act 1971 is under review by the I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to come Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employ- before us on the matter. ment, under the direction of the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen. It is important to clarify that Mr. J. Walsh: I support Senator Dardis in his recruitment agencies in the main do not discrimi- call for a debate on Northern Ireland. That is the nate against any workers and are condemnatory most appropriate way to discuss the issue of of exploitative practices. people on the run and of speaking rights in the Da´il. Much of the Good Friday Agreement has Mr. Finucane: Senator Cox should declare she yet to be implemented including the inter- has an interest in this matter. parliamentary co-operation it envisaged. While I have no difficulty with No. 2 on the Order of An Cathaoirleach: Senator Cox should be Business, why we are petitioning the British allowed to continue. Government with regard to British army soldiers rather than Irish-born soldiers, which would be Ms Cox: I am happy to declare my interest if more appropriate? British soldiers are a matter that is appropriate. for the British Government. Mr. Finucane: The Senator is obliged to declare Ms O’Rourke: They were members of the Brit- her interest. ish army. An Cathaoirleach: She is not obliged to do so. Mr. J. Walsh: It is a good precedent. A report came before this House and the Oireachtas Joint Mr. Finucane: The Standing Orders of the Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and House state she must declare such an interest. Women’s Rights on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and other atrocities where there was a An Cathaoirleach: The Senator should be high suspicion of collusion by British security allowed to continue without interruption. Time is forces. Will the leaders examine that and bring a being wasted. joint motion before this House calling on the House of Commons to pass a resolution seeking Ms Cox: I am happy to declare any interest I a public inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan have in this area. I am not trying to do anything bombings because of the failure of the British inappropriate. 1343 Order of 10 November 2005. Business 1344

[Ms Cox.] Mr. Feighan: On a point of order, how many In the case of a person who is paid \8 per hour Members raised their hands late? by an agency, \3.50 goes to the Government in tax, PRSI and VAT while \2 is generally the An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant. I call amount taken by the agency as its fee. It is appro- the Leader. priate that we should have a debate on this issue to consider the legislative elements that should be Mr. Feighan: It is relevant. The Cathaoirleach included to ensure this important industry will be said several Members were too late in indicating free to defend itself. In the context of such a their wish to speak. debate, I will fully declare my interest in this matter. An Cathaoirleach: The only issue that is rel- evant is the rule we introduced to the effect that An Cathaoirleach: I announced earlier that ten the Leader must respond after 30 minutes. Senators wished to contribute. Others have since indicated a desire to speak but time will not allow Mr. U. Burke: The Cathaoirleach called me me to accommodate them. and I wish to speak.

Mr. McHugh: Will the Leader ask the Ta´naiste An Cathaoirleach: There is no time. I call the and Minister for Heath and Children to address Leader. the anomaly in the home help industry whereby workers in Sligo and Leitrim are treated differ- Ms O’Rourke: Senator Brian Hayes referred to ently from those in Donegal in regard to contracts No. 2 on today’s Order Paper and also spoke of of employment and holiday pay? This should not the pain for victims in the context of the situation arise given that there is one overall authority, the of the “on the runs”, an issue that has been much HSE. There is also an issue in terms of when discussed since the Weston Park talks. He called workers in different counties get paid, whether on for the House to send a clear signal to the para- a fortnightly or monthly basis. militaries in regard to the people who were ban- I am aware there are time constraints but I ished from the North and are still afraid to return. wish to put an important issue on the record. Yes- He also calls for a debate on the different terday, the New Zealand ambassador and a del- approaches envisaged by the two Governments, a egation from the New Zealand rugby team came special tribunal versus an eligibility board. to Donegal to commemorate the legendary Dave Senator O’Toole referred to Sir Reg Empey’s Gallagher, the captain of the original New opposition to the possibility of Northern poli- Zealand rugby team in 1905. He was born in—— ticians gaining speaking rights in the Oireachtas, a view with which he agrees. He also commented An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the on the OECD’s evaluation that Irish housing Order of Business. stock is overvalued and referred to the cavity block system of building. That system is no longer Mr. McHugh: It is relevant. permitted but apparently persists in some parts of Dublin. An Cathaoirleach: It is for the Chair to decide which matters are relevant. Mr. O’Toole: It persists in all areas.

Mr. McHugh: He was born in Ramelton. Ms O’Rourke: The Senator calls for a debate Letterkenny rugby club did more for tourism in on this in the context of the EU directive that will forging a link—— come into effect in January 2006. Senator McCarthy refers to the obligations on those in the poultry trade in regard to registration An Cathaoirleach: That issue is not relevant. of stocks and expresses concern that the Revenue Senator Ulick Burke has been called. Commissioners might use this information to go after small enterprises. The Senator also raised Mr. McHugh: My question is relevant. the possible inaccessiblity issues that arise in regard to the publicjobs.ie website. I received a An Cathaoirleach: I have called Senator Ulick letter from a would-be public service job appli- Burke. cant, a non-national, who experienced difficulties because he has no access to a computer. He hopes Mr. McHugh: I am a GAA supporter like the a local public school will assist him in this regard. Cathaoirleach but I wish to commend Letter- Senator McCarthy also asked about Progressive kenny rugby club on the important work it has Democrats policy, given the statements of one done in this regard. Member of that party in the other House. Senator Dardis called for a debate on Northern An Cathaoirleach: I call the Leader to reply. Ireland, particularly the situation of the “on the 1345 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1346 runs”, and called on the paramilitaries to assist Ms O’Rourke: They were of all nationalities. grieving families in locating the remains of loved The Senator also suggested that we consider ones. He suggests this House might be a suitable sending a joint motion to the House of Commons forum for some level of contribution from on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and Northern politicians. He also called for a debate other issues. That is a fair point and I will discuss on the WTO talks. The Senator observed that it with the Senator. Progressive Democrats Members have always Senator Henry spoke about Ethiopia and the been free to express their points of view. Finally, imprisonment of people without trial. She asked he demanded accountability from all churches. for a debate on the subject given that Ethiopia is Senator Finucane referred to Archbishop one of the so-called model countries to which we Martin’s excellent interview of yesterday and contribute aid. I will try to arrange that, even if observed that people should not be kicked when only for a short period. Senator Cox spoke about the forthcoming review of the 1972 recruitment they are down. This holds true for the entire agency legislation and the need to debate it. debate. He calls for the BreastCheck programme Senator McHugh raised the disparity in salaries to be rolled out on a nationwide basis before 2007 for home helps in Sligo, Leitrim and Donegal and and that more be done to raise awareness among the different times when wages are paid. He also men of prostate cancer. referred to Dave Gallagher who captained the Senator Mooney referred to the ceremony in original New Zealand rugby team in 1905. Derry, at which the Irish tricolour flew alongside the union jack, which was attended by relatives An Cathaoirleach: That was ruled out of order of the youngest soldier to be killed in the First as it was not relevant to the Order of Business. World War. He asked that in future we have a minute’s silence to mark Armistice Day. He also Ms O’Rourke: A plaque was unveiled to him conveyed his sympathy to the people killed and in Ramelton, and rightly so. injured in the bombings in Jordan, which was always regarded as a relatively safe environment. Order of Business agreed to. Senator Norris called for a debate on the Middle East, particularly the situation in Bagh- Social Welfare Consolidation Bill 2005: Motion. dad. He raised the need for closer monitoring of Ms O’Rourke: I move: companies such as Shell and observed that it is the tenth anniversary of the death of Ken That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Saro-Wiwa. He also praised Niall Mellon and the Orders, in the case of the Social Welfare Con- other builders who have gone to South Africa to solidation Bill 2005 - build houses for poor people there. (a) Report Stage shall be taken on Tues- Senator Morrissey spoke of the unofficial Bus day, 15 November 2005; and E´ ireann strike in Galway and the need for bus (b) Fifth Stage shall be taken immediately deregulation. Senator Coghlan referred to the after the conclusion of the proceedings on need for the residents of the Black Valley to get Report Stage. adequate telecommunications facilities. The Black Valley is at the foot of Carrantuohill, the most beautiful place in Ireland in the Senator’s Question put and agreed to. estimation. Shot at Dawn Campaign: Motion. Mr. Coghlan: It is a widely held view. Ms O’Rourke: I move: ´ Ms O’Rourke: It is beautiful. That Seanad Eireann calls on the British Government to respond positively to the Shot at Dawn Campaign which seeks a pardon for Mr. Coghlan: There should be a debate and the those British Army soldiers who were executed Minister should attend. for military offences during World War I; and calls on the Government to continue its efforts Ms O’Rourke: Senator Jim Walsh called for a to raise the matter with the British debate on Northern Ireland. The Senator queried Government. the term used in the motion, “which seeks a par- don for those British Army soldiers who were Question put and agreed to. executed”. When one joined the army at the time, one became a member of the British army and that is the term used. Ferns Report: Statements. Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Mr. B. Hayes: Many of the soldiers who were Equality and Law Reform (Mr. B. Lenihan): Iam executed were not Irish. glad the Seanad is holding a debate on this 1347 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1348

[Mr. B. Lenihan.] The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law important report. First, I wish to pay tribute to Reform has finalised his proposals for the estab- those who came forward to speak to the inquiry lishment of a commission to investigate the hand- to outline the appalling abuse they suffered. ling of complaints and allegations of child sexual Their fortitude in recalling the past and bringing abuse against clergy operating under the aegis of it to light has done a great public service for the the Roman Catholic archdiocese of Dublin. Due people of this country and for the Government to the sensitivity of the subject and because of the and Parliament. They laid the facts in public view child protection implications, the Minister also and allowed the tribunal team to produce a fine consulted with me about the drawing up of these report which outlines what we must do in the particular terms of reference. future to prevent the repetition of this type of In addition to the inquiry into the Roman conduct. Catholic archdiocese of Dublin, paragraphs (vii) The courageous people who spoke about their and (viii) of its terms of reference empower me experiences have offered both the inquiry and the to refer to the commission any Roman Catholic country a disturbing but crucial insight into the diocese in the State that has not established the nature and scale of the problem and the lasting structures or may not be operating the pro- trauma it can generate. We must remember that cedures set out in the 1996 guidelines, or any the events that occurred in Ferns have affected similar document, satisfactorily. Paragraph (viii) the families of both the victims and those against also empowers me to refer to the commission the whom allegations were made. I hope that, in this question of whether any particular diocese is not debate, the feelings of all those people are taken satisfactorily implementing the recommendations into account. of the Ferns report. I also pay tribute to Mr. Justice Murphy and In any event, I intend to request the com- his team. It is accepted on all sides that they have mission of inquiry to check and assess this issue done an excellent job. The report is of a high following the completion of the work of the intellectual quality and is practical and sensible in Health Service Executive. It is important that the its conclusions. It carefully outlines the nature people are given the assurance that the recom- mendations of the Ferns report have been and purpose of the inquiry the team was asked to implemented, not just by the Health Service conduct. The report contains an interesting Executive, in which I have great confidence in review of the relevant literature on the subject of this matter, but also by the commission of inquiry. child sexual abuse. It also deals with the legal and I will ask the commission to confirm this in an managerial structures not only of the diocese of authoritative manner upon the conclusion of the Ferns but also of the relevant health and police Health Service Executive’s work. I am not saying authorities. I will not invoke any of the many other powers The Government accepts the recommendations granted to me if required to do so. In such an of the report in full. The Government, and I on event, I will notify the tribunal of any diocese its behalf, condemned in the strongest possible which falls within the terms of reference. terms the abuse of authority by those who per- The Health Service Executive has been petrated these acts in the diocese of Ferns and requested to make contact with the individual those who failed to prevent and deal with those bishops in the Roman Catholic Church as a who perpetrated these acts. This was a gross der- matter of urgency, to monitor child protection eliction of duty in the protection of children. The practices and ensure compliance with the recom- Government and the country are appalled, mendations of the Ferns report. I have also shocked and dismayed at the extent of these alle- requested the Health Service Executive to launch gations. However, our duty in the Oireachtas and a nationwide publicity and awareness campaign in the Government is to ensure that proper child on child sexual abuse. The National Children’s protection practices are in place and operate to Office will assist the executive in ensuring the the highest achievable standards. campaign targets, and is relevant, to children and I have taken a number of steps to ensure that young persons. the recommendations are implemented by all the I welcome the statement by the church auth- bodies concerned and by the wider community. I orities that they intend to introduce an inter- have requested confirmation from the Episcopal agency review group, along the current Ferns Conference that the recommendations of the report model, in all areas. This is one of the Ferns report will be implemented both collec- crucial recommendations of the Ferns report. The tively and individually. I have also requested con- interagency review group is a simple device firmation that the framework guidelines are in where the bishop, or more often his delegate, place in all dioceses. Archbishop Brady, in must liaise on a regular basis with the relevant response to my letter, indicated to me that the representatives from social services and An individual bishops will communicate with me and Garda Sı´ocha´na. Such review groups must exist liaise with the Health Service Executive at local in every diocese. Members will often have heard level. the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law 1349 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1350

Reform explore the intricacies of Canon Law in restrain a named individual from having unsuper- this area. The key practical solution to this is that vised access to children. This is a far-reaching all information must be shared with the civil auth- recommendation but I agree with its principle. orities at the earliest stage possible. However, it requires some elucidation which will The interagency review group’s function is that take place with an appropriate amendment to when any information points a finger of sus- child care legislation. picion, the assessment of that information is not I have already announced a national review of made through Canon Law but is brought to the compliance with the children first guidelines by attention of the relevant civil authorities. They, State bodies and NGOs, to be driven by the in turn, will make an assessment about it with the National Children’s Office in partnership with all bishop ordinary or his representative. If this relevant Departments. The children first guide- system is not in place, we will be having these lines were published in 1999 and it is essential the arcane discussions about Canon Law for some Government can stand over its own procedures time to come. A practical device on the ground is in protecting children. needed to ensure information is assessed at the Several recommendations contained in the earliest possible stage and appropriate action is Ferns report fall within the specific responsibil- taken. This was the key recommendation of the ities of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Ferns report. From reading the report, one sees Reform. The report recommends the Legislature how that particular agency assisted Bishop Walsh should consider the introduction of a new crimi- in his apostolic administration of the diocese of nal offence relating to engaging in conduct that Ferns. creates a substantive risk of bodily injury or sex- I have requested the Health Service Executive ual abuse to a child or failing to take reasonable to convene meetings of this group and to record steps to alleviate such risk. This is not an offence and maintain its records, in line with the inquiry’s that will be directed at the perpetrator, which is recommendations. The Health Service Executive already on the Statute Book, but an offence is to report as soon as possible after initial meet- directed at an individual creating a substantive ings with the bishops have been held and liaison risk of bodily injury or sexual abuse to a child. arrangements have been put in place. The This is a far-reaching proposal but the Govern- Department of Health and Children embarked ment and the Minister for Justice, Equality and on an in-depth study of the Health Service Execu- Law Reform have accepted it in principle. An tive’s powers regarding third party child sexual appropriate amendment will be introduced on abuse. This will be followed by legislative pro- Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill to posals as required. address this recommendation. Two distinct legal issues were raised by the The report recommends that legal aid, irrespec- Ferns inquiry. The first was whether the Health tive of means, be available to both complainants Service Executive had the power to investigate and priests against whom allegations are made any case of third party child sexual abuse. Prior where the cases are not determined by the crimi- to the publication of the report, I was concerned nal courts. Members who have read the report that there would be any doubt about the powers will have noted that few cases lead to a criminal of the executive in this regard. Some doubt was conviction or even proceedings. In many cases, cast upon it by a careful reading of the report. I the Director of Public Prosecutions may not be immediately sought the advice of the Attorney satisfied that the quantum of proof available is General on this point. He advised me that it falls sufficient to pass muster in a criminal trial. There within the executive’s statutory remit to investi- may also be an unwillingness on the part of wit- gate such matters. That said, further clarification nesses to put themselves through the trauma of is required and legislation will be introduced to full-scale criminal proceedings. Whatever the ensure this. However, I do not want Senators to reason, not all of these matters end up in the be under the illusion that we do not have that criminal courts. An appreciable number has gone power at present. before the civil courts. As Senators are aware A second recommendation of the report sur- from the report, there were settlements for undis- rounded the question of what concrete action the closed sums in various cases. The report wisely Health Service Executive can take following an took the view that those who wish to invoke civil inquiry where the abuse was alleged to have been proceedings should get every assistance from the perpetrated by a third party. Where such abuse State in doing so. Hence the recommendation on takes place within a family context, the ultimate legal aid. The Minister for Justice, Equality and option is to take the child or children into care. Law Reform accepts the recommendation in However, when the abuse has been alleged to principle but he believes it requires further exam- have been perpetrated by a third party, there is ination. In particular it is not clear whether it can no effective sanction available to the Health be restricted to victims of clerical sex abuse as Service Executive to address the matter. The distinct from victims generally. He is examining report recommends that in such cases, the execu- the legal aid provisions with a view to giving tive should have power to seek an order to effect to this recommendation. 1351 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1352

[Mr. B. Lenihan.] protection guidelines to education, sporting and The report also made recommendations that other sectors. documents relating to child sex abuse should be The purpose of Children First is to create a cul- given legal privilege. This recommendation is ture where mandatory reporting takes place. To under examination by the Department of Justice, some extent it has addressed the problems which Equality and Law Reform in consultation with gave rise to the calls for mandatory reporting. the Attorney General. The Oireachtas also enacted the Protections for The report contains a number of recommend- Persons Reporting Child Abuse Act 1998 which ations relating to Garda procedures. The Minister has allayed people’s fears of being sued. In view for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has for- of the comments and observations made in the warded a copy of the report to the Garda Com- preparation of the White Paper and in consul- missioner who will consider it and take on board tations with the Attorney General, it was clear its recommendations. The Government has that there were complex legal issues which decided to refer the report to the Director of needed further consideration. Public Prosecutions to see if any other matters We must be careful about the use of the term relating to criminal proceedings may arise. “mandatory reporting”. Everybody would agree Responsibility for services for the care and pro- with the principle that reporting should be tection of children rests with the Health Service mandatory and that there should be a culture at Executive. The services available to children who every level, whether in the school, workplace or are victims of sexual assault, and to their parents, wherever adults interact with children. Where include professional services such as medical and there is a suspicion of abuse it should be manda- nursing, social work, child and adolescent psy- tory to report such suspicions. Those who call for chiatry, clinical psychology and family support mandatory reporting do not just call for that, services. For adults who suffered abuse as chil- however, but for the creation of a specific statu- dren, the national counselling service is now well tory offence, a criminal offence on the part of established throughout the country and is in a those who do not report. Many professionals position to make every assistance available. argue that in creating that offence those who have In 1998 a working group to review child abuse an urge to confide information will become more guidelines was established to prepare revised reluctant to do so. A perusal of the Ferns report guidelines aimed at improving the identification, shows just how many complainants do not want investigation and management of child abuse. An Garda Sı´ocha´na to become involved. If a The revised guidelines, Children First, the regime of mandatory reporting is introduced to national guidelines for the protection and welfare criminalise those who do not wish under any cir- of children, were published in 1999. Approxi- cumstances to report there will be problems. That mately \9.5 million has been provided for the is one of the complex issues that has given rise to implementation of these guidelines. The HSE has a reluctance to introduce mandatory reporting. used this additional funding to create the infra- The report does not recommend mandatory structure necessary to support full implemen- reporting to that extent but goes close to it by tation of the guidelines. This has included the recommending a specific offence. The Minister appointment of implementation officers, training for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is to bring officers, information and advice officers and forward proposals to criminalise any person who additional social work and administrative staff. A “wantonly or recklessly engages in conduct that national review of these guidelines is under way. creates a substantial risk of bodily injury or sexual The first Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily abuse to a child”. That offence would criminalise Logan, was appointed by the President in the principal of a school, a bishop or another December 2003. The Ombudsman for Children senior officer of the church who stood by while has a function set down in legislation to advise abuse was taking place. In the Ferns report, of any Minister on the development and co-ordi- course, the brave principal did not stand idly by. nation of policy relating to children. One of her While the debate on mandatory reporting has crucial functions is to deal with complaints made resumed with the Ferns report the report contains by or on behalf of children and to promote the within its recommendations a possible solution in welfare and rights of young persons. the creation of the offence of reckless disregard. The publication of the Ferns report brings the That sets a standard with which professional debate on mandatory reporting into focus. A people working in this area would not be draft White Paper on mandatory reporting of uncomfortable but which preserves the necessary child abuse was prepared in 2000 and was circu- element of confidentiality for the victim, who lated to all Departments. There have been signifi- must take centre stage in our consideration. cant developments since the preparation of the I and the Government would like the culture White Paper, for example, investment in the of mandatory reporting to be established but not implementation of Children First and child pro- on a legislative basis. People are now more read- tection services, the appointment of advice ily prepared to report concerns about child abuse officers in the HSE and the extension of child to the relevant authorities and to pursue those 1353 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1354 authorities to ensure that the complaint is dealt that person. Employers must check references with. I do not see the advantage of criminalising and exercise great care. A handful of those an individual for keeping their word to another referred to in the Ferns report have emerged with individual who does not want a complaint to be a criminal record, and none would have had one taken any further. Enough damage has already at the time of their relevant employment. We been done to such an individual without their should be careful not to see Garda vetting as a being concerned that the person they have panacea for this particular problem. entrusted with information could be the subject The State has a duty as part of any robust child of criminal proceedings. It is a difficult issue and protection system to ensure that the basic facility my mind is open but that is my provisional is available. Computer technology is available to conclusion. the Garda Sı´ocha´na, of which the PULSE system Garda vetting is a subject which has been can- is a good example. The vetting unit accesses vassed in recent years. The vetting unit itself was information from this unit and makes it available. only established a few years ago and in the initial The establishment of a vetting unit is only a basic rollout applied to the area of unsupervised access beginning to the development of a robust system to children in the health sector and some limited of child protection. The legislative structure will categories in the education sector. I have been have to be examined further down the road. The concerned about this for some time. In 2004, I implementation group is progressing the recom- persuaded the then Minister for Finance to sanc- mendations of the working group on Garda vet- tion the additional staff required to provide a ting, examining in particular the exact sequence comprehensive service to all employers seeking of the phased roll-out. The report of the working information about employees who will have group can be viewed on the Department’s unsupervised access to children, as well as to vol- website. untary organisations in the same position. The The working group on Garda vetting investi- Minister made the necessary sanctions prior to his gated possible changes to law. The issue of soft departure in July 2004. information, which falls short of a criminal con- I announced in September of that year that the viction but points the finger of suspicion at an Garda vetting service would be made available to individual, arises here. In many jurisdictions, data all sectors and appointed an implementation banks and registers of this type of information are group comprising representatives of the various being amassed. Difficult legal issues surround the Departments and containing the chief executive collection and dissemination of this type of infor- of the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty mation, the indemnification against disclosure to Children, Mr. Paul Gilligan. I am grateful to and the maintenance of a national criminal record the implementation unit for the work it has done. system by the Garda Sı´ocha´na. These matters are The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law being examined by the Department of Justice, Reform decided that the unit should be Equality and Law Reform as well as my decentralised to Thurles where the building has Department. been secured and where the new staff will com- The working group on Garda vetting recom- mence duties in a matter of days. mended that the Department of Education and The next focus will be on expanding the oper- Science and the Department of Health and Chil- ations of the vetting unit from its current levels dren could explore the possibility of the develop- on a phased basis. The education sector is of part- ment of non-Garda, employment related vetting icular importance in this regard where our initial registers to provide information on those pre- target is to ensure that from the new academic viously dismissed, suspended, moved or made year all new entrants into the sector obtain the redundant from posts for harming children or vul- negative clearance from the vetting unit. Follow- nerable adults in the health and education sec- ing that, all the existing staff in the Department tors. Priority has been given to the extension of of Education and Science will have to be vetted. the Garda vetting services, but discussions on Difficult questions can arise about those who these proposals must take place between relevant work voluntarily in schools, are involved in the Departments. This could result in legislation. management of schools or assist with sporting There are complex legal issues involved, partic- activities and all these matters are now under ularly on the release of so-called softer infor- detailed examination in the Department with a mation such as allegations and complaints. We view to the full implementation of the scheme. must work out legislation carefully in consul- Garda vetting is also important in the child care tation with the Attorney General. An implemen- sector, for youth organisations and voluntary tation group is examining recommendations and organisations generally. They too are liaising with will put forward proposals. the implementation group to examine how uni- The Ferns report has had a major effect on the versal vetting can be extended in the particular country as a whole. My job, as well as that of the sectors. As a word of caution, the fact that a per- Government and of the Oireachtas is to protect son has not committed a criminal offence does those within our society who cannot protect not provide a guaranteed clean bill of health for themselves. This is also the job of local communi- 1355 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1356

[Mr. B. Lenihan.] report such events and receive proper treatment ties and the whole of society. Shortcomings have when, rather than if, similar events occur in existed in this regard in the past, but with the future? measures I announced as a result of the Ferns I was recently asked on radio if I thought the report and the developments that have occurred report would be the end of the matter, and I under successive Governments over the past 15 replied that it definitely would not be. As long as years, we have gone a long way in protecting our there are human beings, there is a danger of such children. We cannot be complacent and must con- cases arising. The challenge for parliamentarians tinually strive to put in place better safeguards to is to ask how to deal with these matters when, ensure that the levels of abuse outlined in the rather than if, they arise. Will we really learn report can never recur. from the Ferns report? The recent inquiry into In the words of the Ferns inquiry team it is the Dublin archdiocese will make even more essential that “there will be mechanisms and pro- grim reading. cedures in place which will enable victims The arrogance of the church authorities is promptly to report the abuse in the confidence breathtaking. When people reported the abuse to that they would be believed and the certainty that the relevant church authorities, be they the appropriate action would be taken to terminate bishop or vicar general, they were dismissed, the wrongdoing”. It is the Government’s duty to despite an act of bravery that none of us can ensure that proper child protection practices are imagine. I read in The Irish Times yesterday a in place and in operation. This is a key element report of a lady abused by a priest in Dublin. of the objectives that must be met to ensure that When she informed the relevant church auth- the shocking and appalling events described in ority, she was forgiven for tempting the priest the report are addressed fully and, as far as is initially and told to forget about the incident. humanly possible, prevented from happening in I heard an interview recently with a teacher, Fr. the future. James Grennan, involved in the Ferns diocese In a debate of this type on the Ferns report, my who was a school manager. The interview function is to outline the position of my Depart- restored my faith in human nature, which could ment, other Departments and the Government. come into question on reading the Ferns report. Senators will avail of this opportunity to air other Fr. Grennan emerged well from the report from issues that strike them in the report. I do not seek what was a difficult situation. It is easy for us now to confine debate to what I have discussed in my to argue that Fr. Grennan’s actions were correct, introduction. It is important from the Govern- but he may have taken a different action, or inac- ment’s point of view to place on record the practi- tion, at the time. The children in his class cal action that is being taken. The report will give presented him with devastating news and his chal- rise to a substantial national debate on other lenge was to react to it. His position was compro- issues and I look forward to hearing the com- mised as his boss was the priest abusing the ments of Senators. children. Deputy John Gormley yesterday spoke in the Mr. Browne: I apologise because I must leave Da´il about the issue of separating church and after I speak, as the Joint Committee on Health State in schools. As a former primary teacher I and Children, of which I am a member, is meeting agree with his statement. I have severe reser- for a presentation by the MRSA and Families vations about the church still playing an active group. The Ferns report is truly shocking. Unfor- role in primary schools. We are in a multicultural tunately, every institution of the State is seen to society, and even when I taught three or four fail miserably in it — the Department of Edu- years ago there were children from many differ- cation and Science to some extent, the old health ent religious backgrounds in my classes. One of boards, the church authorities, the political estab- my pupils was a Jehovah’s Witness and when I lishment and even the Garda. Nobody can look taught religious education she was sent to the on the Ferns report with any sense of joy or pride, library to read, although she was free to stay in as every group involved has serious questions to the class if she wished. There were insurance answer. implications for this case. In future, if a child from It is important to put on record that clerical a different religious background leaves the class sexual abuse accounts for a minority of sexual when religious studies are being taught, for abuse overall. Most sexual abuse occurs within example, and an accident occurs, there may be an families or within a wider family circle. The interesting court case regarding who is respon- impression should not be given that such abuse sible for the child in question. only takes place in churches or specifically by the I have reservations about children automati- Roman Catholic Church. We should all ask, while cally being confirmed at 12 years of age. This is a acknowledging that these events occurred, difficult sacrament to understand and a child whether such acts are still occurring or will occur should not receive it just because of his or her in the future. What steps are being taken to age; if a person is 12 years of age and ready, he ensure that people do not have to wait so long to or she should receive it. This is equally true if a 1357 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1358 person is 20 years old or 25 years old before he been a systemic failure. They have let down the or she feels ready. ordinary, hardworking and decent priests who do The church should be moving away from a good work in parishes and with families at times hands-on approach in primary schools. We must that are invariably difficult. They are not getting allow for the fact that we are a multicultural the acknowledgement they deserve. It is very easy society. I am not advocating that the church has to be critical of priests but I feel sorry for them no role in schools as its role is needed. Were it as people only approach them when they want not for the church, lands and buildings would not something. One rarely hears of someone calling have been available to us in many cases. into a priest to see whether he is okay. They are However, we must move on. Many priests are so usually called upon at times of bereavements, stretched in terms of man hours that they do not funerals, weddings or christenings but are forgot- have any time to put into schools and have opted ten after the event again. They have very lonely out of becoming chairmen on boards of lives. As a practising Catholic, I would have no management. problem in priests being allowed the option to Priests should not automatically be the chair- marry. From what I hear of problems in the men of boards of management. It is often the case church, this is only the tip of the iceberg. There now that priests decline this position because they will be more stories similar to that of Bishop do not want the responsibility and the position is Eamonn Casey, stories of priests having relations being given to parents or teachers. This is healthy. with people, which would contravene Canon Otherwise, there would be a clear conflict of Law. However, most ordinary people would be interests, such as occurred in Ferns, where unfor- quite happy for priests to have relationships if tunate allegations of sexual abuse against a parish those involved were consenting adults. priest, a man who happened to be the board of The church must face up to significant issues. management’s chairperson, were proved true. In It has fallen from a very high moral position in theory, when there is a problem in a school, one society and will eat humble pie in the coming should go to the board of management but how months and years. This is a pity as we are wit- could one do so if the person complained about nessing a large decline in the number of people is its chairperson? We must be cognisant of this going to mass and holding to the Christian faith, and take appropriate steps. which is not good for society. I am a member of I once attended an interview for a job, which I the Sub-Committee on High Levels of Suicide in thankfully did not get as I honestly did not want Irish Society and there is a clear indication that, it. I answered questions put to me and an old par- as faith in Ireland has diminished, suicide rates ish priest who was a member of the board asked have increased. I will not link the two but faith is me about my views on a recent statement by the a factor and it is important that society has a faith. Pope about the Catholic ethos. I resented that This news is turning people away from the question as I was going for a job in a school not church, which is not necessarily good. The church a seminary. If I could get across a Christian ethos should come clean and take the appropriate steps in my classroom, I was not doing a bad job. If I to ensure that we will have a healthy church in had wanted to become a priest I would have gone the State. It should not bury its head in the sand. to a seminary or elsewhere. There was much arro- Does the Minister of State have any infor- gance on the part of priests in the past when they mation on instances of sexual abuse in other arrived at schools and barged into classrooms to churches or religions in the State? This is not just ask children questions without knocking on doors applicable to the Roman Catholic Church. Other or checking with teachers. This practice is on the religions have grown significantly in the State. way out but priests must realise that the days of Recently, the Taoiseach reported an Islamic their having significant power are over. school to the Minister for Education and Science Many priests are doing fantastic work but a for teaching too much religion and not concen- handful have unfortunately given the priesthood trating enough on the rest of the curriculum. Are a bad name. The church authorities have serious procedures in place to monitor the rise in new questions to answer and I am unconvinced that religions to ensure this does not happen therein they will take on board all of the issues raised and that we are not here in ten years time making by the Ferns report. The inquiry into the Dublin the same statements about them? archdiocese revealed that Fr. Ivan Payne received The Minister of State’s speech was quite good £30,000 from the then archbishop, Cardinal and his background as a barrister was evident. Desmond Connell. When RTE was about to pub- Concerning specific timeframes, the Minister of lish a story on money from the archdiocese being State spoke about new legislation being intro- used to pay off a victim, the archbishop’s reaction duced on foot of the Ferns report and an under- was to threaten to sue RTE. He subsequently taking to carry out an in-depth study of the pulled out of this action but he strikes me as not Health Service Executive’s powers followed by being in a position to listen and learn. legislative proposals as required. Will this be one The church authorities have much to learn month, six months, a year or two years away? from this episode, in which there seems to have Guidelines were previously issued but it is the 1359 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1360

[Mr. Browne.] The fact that teachers must teach religion is an implementation of guidelines that is difficult. issue. Some primary school teachers refuse and Guidelines on child safety were introduced in the as far as I know they are entitled to do so. It can mid-1980s but we find ourselves debating this cause problems locally. Senator Norris raised the issue in 2005, which clearly proves the guidelines issue of teachers of different sexual orientation did not work. Changes to the Protections for Per- having difficulties in schools. That issue must also sons Reporting Child Abuse Act 1998 and the be addressed. It should not be held against some- Sex Offenders Act 2001 have been recommended one applying for a job in a school. I have severe but they have still not been made. The Minister reservations about being asked questions on a of State referred to a number of amendments to religious ethos at a job interview. That is not the the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 but we need to role of a teacher and it is time that society establish a clear timeframe in respect of when moved on. they will be debated and new legislation will be published. Mr. Glynn: Whoever coined the phrase that The ultimate responsibility of the State is to fact is stranger than fiction was indeed a wise per- protect its citizens, particularly the vulnerable. son. The Ferns report makes horrendous reading. The Ferns report proves that the State, including The fact it is not a pro-active measure but a reac- the Department of Education and Science, Garda tive measure makes it all the more horrendous. I authorities and the then health boards, and the have always held the view that Christianity is a church authorities failed those who were most good concept. Like the song, it is a good song. vulnerable. We must learn how to move forward. We are discussing the singers, not the song. I was amused when I listened to Deputy There can be no hiding place in society for O’Donnell speaking in the Da´il about the bad people who abuse children, whether they are deal that was struck by the State in 2002. Fine priests, doctors, nurses, nuns, brothers, vets, Gael raised the issue of the outgoing Minister for swimming coaches or sports coaches of any kind. Education and Science, Deputy Woods, striking One of the better aspects of this report is the fact a deal with the religious orders at the time. While that a number of young people came forward and told of their experiences. When one discusses I might understand his haste in terms of enabling children in this context, one means people who compensation to be paid to victims of sexual have had their childhood stolen. That of itself has abuse, a wider view was needed to ensure the serious implications because not alone did it State and taxpayers got a good deal and religious cause severe mental suffering to the victims, but orders were not let off the hook in terms of fulfil- also to their families. We must also consider the ling their responsibilities. Could the Minister of families of the accused, who did not send them State clarify how much this deal has cost the State out to perpetrate those gross indecent acts. so far? Many of the victims have found their way into It has been my experience that, in other the psychiatric services. A number of them are instances of children being abused in institutions part of the parasuicide or suicide statistics. Many — not necessarily by religious orders — the of them entered relationships in adult life that redress process has been slow. People are called broke down because of the background of abuse. before the redress board and offered a sum of We must stand up in this forum and say “Well money, which they can either accept or reject. If done” to the victims because as Senator Henry they accept it they are paid straight away. can confirm, and as I learned from my training, However, there can be a long delay. I am aware one of the first steps in the right direction from of one case of a lady who was dying from cancer. an experience such as this is to be able to con- While I telephoned repeatedly and explained her front the experience and talk about it. medical situation to the board, there was no rush The most annoying revelation of the report is to pay her. She had obviously waited 30 or 40 that despite the facts, the church tried to brazen years for this payment, perhaps even longer. It is it out in many cases. That is totally unacceptable. important that, after establishing the redress I can state that prior to this being made known, I board and paying compensation to victims, every- was informed by my brother in Canada that the thing is done as quickly as possible bearing in situation there and in the United States is what mind the long period involved in seeking the we have here now. As Senator Browne pointed compensation. out, evidence suggests that certain abuses have I welcome the Ferns report. It is a wake-up call taken place in other denominations. It also con- to everybody involved. We must take cognisance tains a clear message on considering who should of it, especially in terms of the management of have access to children, whether they are primary schools. The church authorities must teachers, caretakers or cleaners. I need only reflect on their exact role and, given their remind the House of the example from across the decreasing numbers, I am sure many of them water of the two little girls murdered by Ian would be willing to move away from the primary Huntley. How did he slip through the net? He did sector and concentrate on their religious role. so and he had a track record that was not shining. 1361 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1362

Somebody slipped up. There can be no hiding By 1980 Bishop Herlihy recognised there was place whatsoever for someone who abuses a psychological or medical dimension to child sex- children. ual abuse. His decision in 1980 to send priests, in I agree with Senator Feighan that every strata respect of whom allegations of abuse were made, of society must be examined in the context of to a psychologist was appropriate and broadly in child abuse, whether it is hospitals, colleges or accordance with the understanding then evolving. convents. Any place where children are, inside or What was wholly inappropriate and totally inex- outside of the home, must be monitored and plicable was the decision of Bishop Herlihy to examined. If abuse is taking place, the appro- appoint as curates priests against whom alle- priate action must be taken. What a pity we are gations had been made and in respect of whom a discussing reactive and not pro-active measures. respected clerical psychologist had expressed his It would be marvellous if we were discussing pro- concerns in unambiguous terms as to their suit- active measures. ability to interact with young people. Bishop The one word that looms large in this debate it Herlihy disregarded the professional opinion of “trust”. Trust was breached by people in whom it people who were well placed to make such a diag- was placed. I remember from my time in the nosis and recommendation. Equally inappropri- primary school sector when a teacher was dis- ate was Bishop Herlihy’s decision to ordain men covered to be abusing. What happened? Was the who were clearly unsuitable into the priesthood problem addressed? It was not. Comparable to a when he knew, or ought to have known, of their draughts board, the piece was moved to another propensity to abuse children. square. In the view of the Ferns inquiry — it is also the Much of what the Minister of State said is wel- view of Roderick Murphy SC, now Mr. Justice come. We should compliment those who com- Roderick Murphy, as expressed in his 1998 report piled the Ferns report. I will be as measured as I on child sexual abuse in swimming — where a can on this occasion. I have a particular aversion credible allegation of child sexual abuse is made to child abusers, rapists and people who abuse against an employee, or other persons acting and beat up old people. I will not call the individ- under authority, it is the responsibility of the uals involved “people”. I do not think “animal” employer or superior to require the employee to is an appropriate word either. I suppose my limi- step aside promptly from any post or position in tations in the English language preclude me from which he has access to children. This is not rocket finding the right terminology to describe them. science but common sense. Regretfully in this case and in other cases, common sense was far The Ferns inquiry identified more than 100 from common. Bishop Comiskey accepted that allegations of child abuse made between 1962 and this principle was equally applicable to the exer- 2002, against 21 priests operating under the aegis cise by a bishop of his authority under Canon of the diocese of Ferns. Six of the priests died Law in respect of priests of his diocese. Further- before any allegation of abuse was made against more, it was recognised that in the case of them. Three more died subsequent to the alle- diocesan clergy stepping aside from a position in gations being made. The nature of the response which there was unsupervised access to children, by the church authorities in the diocese of Ferns it necessarily entailed stepping aside from the to allegations of child sexual abuse by priests active ministry entirely pending the investigation operating under the aegis of that diocese has of the allegations. In my time as an officer of the varied during the past 40 years. These variations Midland Health Board it was the case that if a reflect in part the growing understanding of the person was deemed to have committed an inap- medical professions and society in general of the propriate act or a gross unprofessional act, he or nature and consequence of child sexual abuse she was suspended on pay pending an inquiry. and, in part, the different personalities and man- That person was not permitted to continue to per- agement styles of successive bishops. form professional duties. I fail to see the reason In certain circumstances, “mismanagement” this did not happen in this case as it is well-estab- rather than “management” is a more appropriate lished practice in general employment. term. Between 1960 and 1980, it would appear The report sets out in detail the difficulties that Bishop Donal Herlihy treated child sexual experienced by Bishop Comiskey in securing the abuse by priests of his diocese exclusively as a removal of diocesan clergy under his aegis from moral problem. He penalised the priest in respect particular posts held by them. In almost every of whom the allegation was made by transferring case, significant periods elapsed before the bishop him to a different post or a different diocese for could persuade the priest in question to vacate a period of time but then returned him to his his position and undergo the assessment and former position. treatment suggested by the bishop. In no case did That was an outrageous situation. If ever there the bishop persuade or compel the priest con- was an example of whistling past the graveyard cerned to stand aside from his priestly ministry. — in this case the graveyard was on both sides of This is a clear example of a policy of procrasti- the road — this is it. nation. The inquiry does not underestimate the 1363 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1364

[Mr. Glynn.] Dr. Henry: I wish to share my time with difficulties encountered by the bishop but it Senator Norris. expressly criticises his failure to stand aside from the ministry those priests against whom alle- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: That is agreed. gations had been made and in respect of whom information was or should have been available to Dr. Henry: I welcome the Minister of State to the bishop. This information was available and I the House. I cannot say I welcome this report question the reason decisive action was not taken. because it is utterly appalling. Senator Glynn is Subsequent to the appointment of Bishop correct to say that the effects of child sexual Walsh as apostolic administrator of the diocese of abuse on a person last forever. I do not think Ferns in April 2002, more effective steps were repayment can do them lasting good but the taken to ensure the protection of children. I com- recognition that wrong was done to them does mend the bishop concerned. All outstanding alle- seem to be the one thing we can do. While I wel- gations of child sexual abuse were reviewed by come the Minister of State’s decision to investi- the administrator in conjunction with a new gate the Dublin diocese, I regret to say I do not advisory panel. In addition, the bishop appealed think Ferns and Dublin are the only places with to members of the public to come forward to the serious problems. diocese, the Garda and the health board with Under the Constitution the churches in this information about any allegation or suspicion of country are permitted to order their own affairs child sexual abuse not previously made known or and that is as it should be. However, when the which had been disclosed and had not been satis- authorities within the church neglect their duties factorily investigated or dealt with. There was a to the most vulnerable people in their flock, we very significant response to that appeal. There must speak out and take immediate action. were clearly two situations. One bishop was doing Attention has been drawn to the situation of the his job, carrying out his ministry as ordained power of the bishops within the church. It is time while another clearly did not. to question whether it is right that this power There can be no hiding place for anybody who should stand over an area as serious as education. has not discharged their responsibilities to the A survey on the views of the Irish public on people who will be our leaders tomorrow and will education was undertaken in 2004 by the Depart- be tomorrow’s parents, politicians and carers. ment of Education and Science. It is surprising This is to do with the formulation of the person- that approximately 60% of the people within that survey said they would welcome interdenomi- alities and persona of those young people who national education. Some would prefer religious will be the pillars of society in the years ahead. education within the school but a very high per- Anybody who did not take the appropriate action centage would prefer no religious education to protect the most vulnerable in society, our chil- within the school. This issue needs to be dren, has a very serious question to answer. There addressed separately from the report. Sacramen- can be no hiding place for them from the full rig- tal duties can be carried out outside school time. ours of the law. Religion can still be taught in schools and it is In April 2002, 11 priests against whom alle- now on the examination curriculum. Within the gations of child sexual abuse had been made were Church of Ireland and the other reformed still alive; three have been excluded from the churches, sacramental education takes place out- priesthood by direction of the Holy See and seven side the school. I hope this will be a subject of have stood aside from the active ministry at the future debate. request of Bishop Eamonn Walsh. The eighth I strongly support Educate Together, an organ- priest is advanced in years and is in retirement. isation which should receive much more financial The Garda Sı´ocha´na and the health board are support from the Government than is currently advised from time to time as to the whereabouts the case. By promoting multidenominational edu- of the priests who have stood aside and the cir- cation, it caters to the wishes of a large section of cumstances in which they live and this is an the community. Educate Together urgently important provision. The Garda and the health requires more State aid. board are satisfied that the arrangements made One of the most serious aspects of the Ferns in respect of those priests provide an appropriate report is the section dealing with former Mon- measure of child protection. This speaks for itself. signor Ledwith, who we learn later was involved The church has had many crises in the past. It in the sexual abuse of children. This is significant was mostly under attack from without; on this because for the ten years between 1985 and 1995, occasion it is attacking itself from within. I thank the then Monsignor Ledwith was President of God for those good priests, nuns and brothers Maynooth College, the most important Irish insti- and above all, for those who are good bishops. tution for the training of priests. This begs the We should all spare a thought for them. The question as to what type of training on sexual Ferns report deals with the exceptions rather than matters priests studying in Maynooth at the time the rule, for which we should be thankful. received from this man. 1365 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1366

I listened with dismay to the Vincent Browne Health Board was not in a position to investigate programme last night as a moral theologian from gross abuses against children, I was having con- Maynooth appeared to suggest, as he did in an siderable difficulties with it regarding a book on article in The Irish Times earlier in the week, that women’s health published by the then Depart- the bishops may not have understood that child ment of Health. On the basis that the part of the sexual abuse was a crime. It is beyond belief that book dealing with breast feeding also featured a he should make this suggestion or suggest that small section on contraception, the health board Vatican II was somehow responsible for making decided it was unsuitable for distribution, not- sexual sins a form of emotional aberration. I withstanding the fact that it was produced by a query that anyone should teach theology of that Department. Rather than preventing adult nature nowadays. women who could make decisions for themselves With regard to Monsignor Ledwith, I was dis- from reading a book, the board should have been mayed to read the response of the bishops to addressing what was happening to children who whom complaints were made by six senior sem- had been disgracefully abused. inarians, as they are described in the report, as well as the senior dean of Maynooth College, Fr. Mr. Norris: I am grateful to Senator Henry for Gerard McGinnity. Cardinal Daly, one of the sur- sharing time with me. This is not a pleasant viving bishops, indicated in his statement to the occasion or one on which anybody should gloat. inquiry that it was entirely untrue that any sem- While nobody relishes the distress of a great insti- inarian had mentioned homosexuality to him in tution such as the Roman Catholic Church, it is connection with Monsignor Ledwith. He also important that matters such as those addressed in stated it was not credible that he would have the Ferns report be exposed. I express my sym- ignored allegations of homosexuality when he pathy on this occasion to the many decent priests was already investigating the issue in Maynooth and members of religious orders and to the few College. The Cardinal added that if the issue had good and decent bishops, including Bishop Willie been raised with him, Monsignor Ledwith would Walsh, a remarkable and saintly man, Bishop never have been appointed President of Eamonn Walsh in Ferns who appears to be doing Maynooth College. a good job, and Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Unfortunately, I have found that the Cardinal’s the Dublin diocese, a decent, honourable and memory is not always clear. As a former member fair man. of the National Forum on Peace and Reconcili- The Ferns report is devastating. The kinds of ation, I recall that the late Tom Fox asked the comments being made and the attitude shown by Cardinal whether the Roman Catholic Church the Roman Catholic Church demonstrate that the had not been foolish to forbid Roman Catholics church has not changed — let us be honest in this to enter Protestant churches, even for funerals, regard — and that the issue goes to the top of its baptisms or weddings. In reply, the Cardinal hierarchical structure, which the report examines. stated he could not remember those times. I am It gives me no great pleasure to cite as an 20 years younger than the Cardinal Daly yet I can example the late Pope John Paul II who, follow- remember them. Bishop Casey cannot remember ing the departure of Cardinal Groer of Vienna any of the events in question either but he has his from his position as a result of a series of accu- own problems. sations of molestation of seminarians which later proved to be correct, wrote a letter to the Cardi- Mr. B. Lenihan: I believe the bishop does nal to console him while maintaining a stony sil- remember them. ence towards the victims. The current Pope is sheltering a person — he enjoys diplomatic Dr. Henry: I do not believe Bishops Herlihy immunity in the Vatican — who established a and Comiskey should be the only individuals seminary in Mexico and is wanted by the auth- singled out for criticism. The issue must have orities there. Events such as these indicate where been discussed with all the bishops when it first the source of the trouble lies. arose because they took out insurance at the time If one examines the appointments made in the to deal with it. Catholic Church over the past 25 years, one finds On the Health Service Executive and legislat- that people were appointed to senior positions on ive changes required to ensure third parties can the basis of their rigid orthodoxy in doctrinal take a more active stance, it is unfortunate that matters and their reactionary attitudes towards legislation passed by this House relatively modern developments in the understanding of recently precludes people from being more human sexuality. While no church has ever told active. I encourage the Minister of State to ensure the truth about human sexuality, the worst legislation is introduced as soon as possible mak- offender in this regard is the Roman Catholic ing provision for the crime of wilful Church. endangerment of children. It is important that this Chamber highlight two The Minister of State will have a little laugh of the conclusions reached in the report, both of when he learns that at the time the South Eastern which I will cite. On page 22, the report states: 1367 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1368

[Mr. Norris.] blasphemy against everything that Christianity or “The Expert Group was unanimous in its view any other religion would hold dear. It is a very that homosexuality is not a factor in increasing painful matter. the risk to children”. This is not what the church I never realised that I had encountered Fr. is saying. It is trying to dislodge everything by Sea´n Fortune. However, I recently saw a clip organising a witch-hunt against gay people, from a programme on which I had appeared — including in seminaries in the United States. The “Prime Time” or some such thing. I was second conclusion is made on page 36, which attempting to make a dignified case for changes states: “The Expert Group was unanimous in its to the criminal law on homosexual behaviour but view that the vow of celibacy contributed to the was vehemently abused by a person in a Roman problem of child sexual abuse in the Church”. collar who, with a smirk on his face, did his very I honour Deputy Liz O’Donnell for her cour- best to put me back in my box. It was Fr. Sea´n ageous speech in the Da´il yesterday and regret Fortune, who at that very time was routinely that she was subjected to sniping partisan attacks attacking children. from other parties, including the Labour Party, We must address this. I say again to the Mini- which should know better. The Deputy made an ster that he should examine the equality legis- important statement. Both Houses have a lation. We have surely gone beyond the time responsibility in this matter. It has been stated when decent people like me cannot be teachers. that the Catholic Church does not have a special It is, of course, a question of behaviour. If some- position in Ireland and is neither above the law one displayed a gay rights poster or tried to talk or exempt from its provisions. That is most defin- to unprepared young children about such compli- itely not the case because the Houses recently cated issues, that would be wrong, and those passed legislation giving the church exempt responsible would deserve to be reprimanded and status. Will the Minister of State please ask his disciplined. However, that should not happen colleagues to re-examine this issue, particularly in merely because of people’s lifestyles. regard to the equality legislation, on which the Among what I found most shocking, which various churches approached the Government clearly contradicts the notion that the hierarchies and were granted exemptions from its operation? were unaware of the abuse, is the fact that, in As a result of this decision, decent people like me 1984 in the United States, there was the case of can be fired from their jobs by the managers of Fr. Gilbert Gauthe in Lafayette, Louisiana, which schools — priests — simply on the basis of their received a great deal of publicity. A committee sexual orientation. This is not tolerable and I am was established by the church and produced a no longer prepared to be part of a group whose document entitled, The Problem of Sexual Moles- citizenship is defined as second class. tation by Roman Catholic Clergy. Meeting the I find it astonishing that while people such as Problem in a Comprehensive and Responsible me are considered unfit to teach children, others Manner. The first matter on the agenda was to who serially molest children in the most noxious take out insurance. I find it morally devastating way escaped punishment, although their crimes that the response to the knowledge that children were known. Senator Henry is correct on this were routinely being attacked was to protect matter as I also heard the Vincent Browne prog- material assets. That does not seem to me a very ramme last night. At least Father Twomey was spiritual way of handling the matter. being honest when he stated his belief that the In the executive summary of the Ferns report, bishops did not consider child sexual abuse a the authors refer to Bishop Herlihy, saying that crime. How extraordinary. On what planet were he penalised a priest in respect of whom an alle- the bishops living? gation had been made by transferring him to a I was also astonished to read Father Twomey’s different post or diocese. I would not call that article in The Irish Times and have written a let- penalising him, I would call it rewarding him. We ter to the newspaper examining his piece because now know that when people were found to be at he appears to argue that Vatican II and liberal this evil work, they were transferred to a place and progressive priests and theologians were where they happily went to play again, doing responsible for child abuse. If one looks at those exactly the same thing. involved in these cases one will not find one pro- gressive or liberal theologian among them. An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s time is I do not wish to go through all the cases, but almost over. they are horrendous. Boys left bleeding went to their mothers too ashamed to explain what had Mr. Norris: The behaviour is inappropriate. I happened, after which they committed suicide; it have great respect for many of the traditions of is awful. One priest, when hearing a young girl’s all the various churches. People say that only 4% catechism, stuck his tongue in her ear and fiddled or 5% of abuse cases relate to the clergy, but that with her. I wonder whether those people believed is statistically anomalous, since for that to be rep- in God at all. Even if I had that impulse, I would resentative of the general population, one would be terrified to act upon it, and I regard it as a have to have 200,000 priests in the country, and 1369 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1370 we do not have that many. There is a particular importantly, we owe a great debt of gratitude to problem in this case, and I commend to the Mini- the retired Supreme Court judge, Mr. Justice ster the courageous words of Deputy O’Donnell. Francis D. Murphy, and to Dr. Helen Buckley There is still a great deal of doublespeak. One and Dr. Laraine Joyce. Their work, particularly of the problems of the Roman Catholic Church the non-statutory inquiry, has been outstanding. in particular is that it has both a political and a I was glad to hear that victim representative spiritual face. It is not appropriate that the Papal groups, for example, the One in Four organis- Nuncio should be the doyen of the diplomatic ation, have welcomed the report. Such groups corps here. Neither is it appropriate that Cardinal have not always universally welcomed action Ratzinger should issue statements instructing taken to uncover past events and it is testimony democratically-elected politicians what way they to the work of Mr. Justice Murphy and his team should vote on certain matters concerning sexu- that those who need to be served feel so served ality, a matter about which the church has always by the report. lied. Those many honest voices within the church The accounts of what happened to victims of who tried to tell it the truth were ruthlessly mar- clerical abuse form the dark heart of the report. ginalised. I have only one more point to make. What can we say to them, and how can we begin to address their needs and what they have been An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has exceeded through? We cannot do so. However, they can at the time. least know this much now: we hear their stories, believe them, and commit ourselves to doing all Mr. Norris: One must be equal in such matters. we can to prevent this ever happening again. I do not believe that there is quite the same Abuse is a singularly awful phenomenon, and its degree of sexual molestation in the Anglican effect is devastating for all involved. Why do Church, for example, but there is a devastating women not report domestic violence or, if they history, which has never been examined, of viol- do, later withdraw their complaints? Why do we ent physical abuse of children in Protestant see reaction by a family as a unit to terrible schools, including those that had expensive destructive acts? We know that it is the wrong boarding sections. People’s lives were destroyed, thing to do and often the unit knows that it is and no one ever opens his mouth, since it is wrong. However, society has failed people and almost as if the Protestant churches were a victims suffer. reserved matter, like the white deer in Mallow I spoke of the difficulty of striking a balance. deserving special protection. However, I feel strongly about my next point, Let us have this debate right across the board, which should be taken in a broad context. I am examining all such matters. Let us tell the truth personally inclined to overreact to abuse when but protect all citizens. We must re-examine those dealing with those who abuse others. malign provisions in the equality legislation, I have, however, great sympathy for the many which go against everything to do with the good priests who have now themselves become concept. victims of the church’s action and inaction because they perceive the hierarchy has failed Mr. Minihan: I welcome the Minister of State them. to the House for this important debate. During a It is particularly difficult to analyse such ter- series of statements such as this, striking a rible abuse when it comes to the church, an balance is difficult. On the one hand, we have all organisation so trusted, respected and revered in the selfless and significant work done by the Irish society. We must remember, as must the church in Ireland over the centuries. On the church, that it is subject to the law of the land. other, we have the most awful treatment of vul- When I was in the Army, I was subject to military nerable children at the hands of some members law but that never took precedence over State of the clergy and a failure on the part of the insti- law and the same applies to Canon Law. There tutional church to deal with it. To appear to con- must be no ambiguity on this point. centrate or focus on either element can be con- I have a deep respect for the clergy. I was edu- strued as, deliberately or otherwise, cated at the Farranferris diocesan college in Cork, underestimating the importance of the other. In a sister college to St. Peter’s in Ferns. While I the few minutes available to speakers, it is diffi- boarded there for five years, I was not aware of cult adequately to address the two. any impropriety. I have nothing but gratitude for However, we must not forget that we are the priests and would never undervalue the work speaking about what happened in Ferns. The of the men and women who educated me and report reveals more than 100 allegations of child many others by attacking the institutions of the sexual abuse made between 1962 and 2002 church. against 21 priests. I need not recount the horrific Having said that, the fact that a church in 1987 details therein. However, the stories behind those took out insurance to protect the financial assets numbers are as awful as they are criminal. Diffi- of individual dioceses and seemingly took no pre- cult as it is to read them, as a society we are a ventative action to curtail or preclude what was great deal better for their having been revealed. happening is deeply disturbing. As a result, the In that regard, we must commend the Govern- betrayal of the trust given by people to the church ment for establishing the inquiry in 2003. More must have some consequences as we look to the 1371 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1372

[Mr. Minihan.] It is easy to say that we should remove the future. While we should not throw out the baby church’s authority from our schools. This may or with the bath water, the special relationship that may not be appropriate, but in saying so, let us existed between the Catholic Church and the be honest and acknowledge that for many years, State must be looked at now in an objective and it suited the State and society to stand back and unemotional manner. We must work towards a have no responsibility in the provision of school point of appropriate connections between the management. The State delegated its responsi- State, professionals competent in these awful bility for years in the education, health and wel- areas and the church. There must be a newly fare of the less fortunate in society. defined and constituted act of partnership We should all hang our heads in shame when between these three groups. The clergy, bishops looking back — the church, the State and society. and church do not comprehend the complex We did not listen, care or intervene. The State issues surrounding clerical abuse. Part of the and society are not exonerated in this report and problem in the past is that the bishops felt they must bear some guilt. were capable of dealing with that abuse but they were wrong. The move from protecting offending Mr. Feighan: I welcome the Minister of State priests means embracing a partnership approach to the House for these difficult statements on the and working with professional partners, special- Ferns report. We should thank Mr. Justice ists in dealing with abuse and abusers. Murphy and his team for a thorough report. That The State in many instances was no better report caused deep anger. The graphic accounts, equipped or no more effective at dealing with which I did not particularly want to read, and the abuse and allegations of abuse in the past. Never- actions of perpetrators, particularly Fr. Fortune, theless, the findings of the 2003 working group on leave me speechless. These people enjoyed a lot child protection, chaired by management consult- of trust and were in positions of responsibility. ant, Miss Maureen Lynott, spelled out what is We have talked about teachers, trainers of foot- needed. This debate must be issue driven and ball teams and boy scout or girl guide leaders must not revolve around individuals or individual being vetted by the gardaı´ but there were many cases. We must adopt a professional approach. It priests in the Wexford area who abused their is unhealthy and unacceptable for a church to position feeling they could get away scot free. make its own decisions in these matters. In the It reminds me of the bad old days. Only 20 past it engaged in a process in a state of fear of years ago, Britain was the dumping ground for exposure and repercussions. Compounding the Ireland’s social problems. Thousands of young church’s inability to deal with this awful phenom- women took the boat to England for an abortion. enon were organisational deficits. Many people People knew when a young girl went to England believe that Archbishop Brady is the CEO of the to spend time with her aunt what was happening. church in this country. That is not the case, each Generations of children never knew their fathers bishop is supreme in his own diocese, answering because they were separated and had gone to only to Rome. This is a structural deficit, an work in Britain, coming back at Christmas and on organisational flaw that would not bear up in any special occasions. Law breakers used to be told other sector. The church must address this by gardaı´ that they would be prosecuted if they problem. did not go to Britain. That was compounded We must more forward and ensure a better, some years ago when a judge said he would send safer future for children. This will depend on edu- a young offender to prison if he did not go to cation, awareness and support. Moving forward Britain. There was a time when we could not get does not mean ignoring the past but learning contraception in this great country of ours, when from it. How do we, as a society, learn from this we had to cross the Border to Enniskillen to get experience? Abuse warps families, communities it. We have a lot to answer for. and organisations. Education, awareness and sup- We should thank the service and the people in port must permeate all of these, not just to deal Britain for putting up with our problems for many with and prevent abuse but as a means of years, and perhaps we should apologise to Britain preventing the destructive repercussions of abuse for the way we have used that country as a dump- — addiction to alcohol or drugs, depression and ing ground. suicide. Abuse is a terrible phenomenon so Homosexual acts were illegal in this country thoroughly destructive that it is impossible to deal and homosexuals were treated as second-class with all the facets in a way that does them justice citizens. They were not allowed teach and most in a few minutes. of them had to go to the United Kingdom. In We must remain balanced. We must look for- terms of what defined Ireland at the time, there ward while acknowledging and learning from the was a close relationship between the church and past. There are major repercussions for the the State and people who were all-powerful. church, State and society. It is easy for us to criti- People were licking the altars of the church, so cise the church for what it did and failed to do to speak. They could be seen following religious but can we honestly do that and ignore what the processions in every small town yet they were State and society did or failed to do? If we want doing people harm. I am not talking about the honesty in looking at the past, we must equally majority of them but some of them were acting have honesty and truth in the present and future. in that way. That was the way life was then. 1373 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1374

When I was about 12, I remember my mother, tician it is my responsibility to seek the truth but who was a very quiet, inoffensive lady, taking me from a human point of view I almost do not want aside, as I am sure did most mothers at the time, to know what the truth has in store. We must all and saying, “Watch out for him”. The people she ensure these events do not happen again but was talking about were not sex offenders but we every case must be investigated. were warned to steer clear of certain people. I do I pay tribute to all those who outed those who not believe, however, that any parent told their committed these evil deeds. I hope we can move child that a certain priest was a sex offender. It on and that the systems will be put in place to just did not happen. We have grown up but per- ensure they will never happen again and that, haps we have much to learn in that regard. most importantly, our children will be protected. The Catholic Church has been rocked by these Senator Norris was correct when he said that allegations and the churches have a lot to answer boards of schools and so on were discriminatory for. We all know they did not respond in the cor- in the way they approached minorities and people rect way. They kept their heads down, just as did with a homosexual or lesbian background. It must people in society, when they should have taken be recognised now that because people are homo- the lead. Once again, as a society we did not con- sexuals does not mean that they pose a risk to front our problems. We shoved them aside and young people. We have grown up as a society in that is what the Catholic Church did, which was that regard. wrong. Whatever needs to be done, I know the Mini- There are very good priests. Members of the ster of State will ensure that the proper safe- missions were in my town two weeks ago when guards will be put in place. I am very concerned this story broke. They were very frank and apolo- about what may come out in the future but we getic and said this should never happen again. In must deal with it and ensure these abuses never times of crisis I always find that people have the happen again. capacity to forgive but they also have the capacity to get on with life and ensure these abuses never Ms O’Rourke: We normally say we are glad to happen again. The missionaries said that when be hear to speak on a particular motion but I am this news broke they discussed it when they went not glad to be here. I thank the Minister of State home. They wondered how they could face the and his officials for coming to the House but this people at the missions that night but when they is a dreadful day for Ireland. This is an issue we arrived at the missions the place was virtually full. must face up to but the ritualistic comments we There was an enthusiasm and a forgiveness on make do not have any meaning in a debate such the part of people. They understood and they as this. went away with a pep in their step. What hap- The Minister of State, in his submission, out- pened was wrong and action should be taken lined clearly the various items of legislation against the perpetrators but we have to move on already in place since the 1990s, the appointment because there is also much good in the church. of the children’s ombudsman and various other What happened in Artane and other industrial matters which will form the bedrock of more schools was wrong and we are right to expose legislation, directives and intervention. However, those issues. I commend the marvellous work at least we moved in the 1990s, not knowing the done by Mr. O’Gorman of the One in Four awfulness of what was going on in the Ferns area. organisation. The members of that organisation I suppose we had an inkling but we certainly did have been very proud and brave but we have let not know the enormity of its awfulness. them down. As Senator Minihan said, they have I read the Ferns report on the day it came out been let down by the State, local politicians, and it was shocking. If one set out to write a novel gardaı´, the Departments of Justice, Equality and containing the miseries in the report, one could Law Reform, Health and Children, and Edu- not do it because one’s mind could not compre- cation and Science, and, most importantly, the hend that people in responsible positions would church. Transferring abusers from one post to behave in that awful way. They treated young another, or leaving them in positions of authority, people as play-things to be used and then dis- was wrong. There was a view that they were carded because they wanted to fulfil their above the law and there was a wilful neglect of pleasure at that time. young people. Our responsibility for the future is We all know there are very good priests, bro- the protection of young people. That responsi- thers and nuns but it is appropriate to repeat it. bility lies with the State. The Government and all There are such very good people who are in utter political parties have that responsibility, and that pain as a result of these revelations. At the same must be recognised by all of us. time, there are many of them who are not. The Many of the instances of abuse investigated in Ferns inquiry is about the church, the gardaı´, the the Ferns report relate to the 1960s and 1970s but community and the public at large because in I cannot believe some of them relate to 2002, many cases there was a reluctance to push for- which is only three years ago. Perhaps we have ward with the claims. There was a major reluc- not grown and we have much more to learn. I tance to report the matter to gardaı´. The judge welcome the fact that there will be an investi- and his team are to be commended but we must gation in the diocese of Dublin but I fear what understand that this was a small area and people might come out of that investigation. As a poli- may have been related to or known the gardaı´, 1375 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1376

[Ms O’Rourke.] In the past I have dealt closely and harmoni- but we have gone past all of that now. If there ously with Educate Together, the multidenomin- was to be one recital it would be bad enough but ational school organisation. Pupils of those the report recites so many abuses over such a schools receive religious instruction outside period. school hours but within the school environment. While the Department of Justice, Equality and This is a good system and I call on the Minister to Law Reform and the Department of Health and give decent funding to the multidenominational Children will act through legislation, there are schools. Educate Together has told us it has insuf- many other ways to help. One is the ficient funding to run as it hopes. It is clearly non- 1 o’clock Stay Safe programme for schools, denominational, democratic, accountable and which I instigated. I do not wish to open. I give these examples to show how one boast, but to explain it. In 1991, as Minister, I had Department could begin to put its own house in a thorough conversation with the INTO, the chief order in a non-legislative way rather than giving psychologist and the then Secretary of the us platitudes. It should promptly compel every Department of Education. I was vaguely aware primary school to teach the Stay Safe programme that things were happening amiss. We created the and give proper funding to Educate Together. Stay Safe programme but it is not taught in every The church must show a human face. People primary school. In the Da´il this week the Minister go to a priest when they are in trouble but the for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, in relationship often lacks warmth. I spoke in this House on the heinous way the church treats div- response to question, said she would like parents orced people. A churchgoer who divorces and to come to like and respect the programme, to marries again cannot obtain a church blessing. which I say “fiddle-de-dee”. According to the church one is living in sin, Stay Safe should be taught in all schools. It although one is living by the law of the land, if replaces what Senator Feighan said mothers used not that of Rome. The church treats a divorced to teach their children about not talking to or couple as pariahs and outside the Pale, and there going anywhere with strangers. It empowers is no warmth. I repeat the awful story of a couple primary school children to keep themselves safe. that was refused a marriage blessing by three The curriculum was drawn up securely and I am churches. Father Brian D’Arcy of the Vincentians astonished that it is not taught in every school. agreed to bless the couple’s marriage after the We should not wait until people come to like the civil marriage ceremony. If the order priests, who programme. How silly. are subject to Canon Law but not the orders of When we introduced the programme there was the local bishop, can give such a blessing, why uproar in many bishoprics. One Saturday after- should all churches not do it? It is unforgiving for noon two bus loads of people came from County a church to refuse to bless a second marriage. Cork to my house where I was holding a clinic. People find the pomp of the church off-putting. They brought huge posters calling me all sorts of The priests march up and down, take their hats names. I received several letters from bishops and on and off, shift their vestments and blow incense. parents saying the programme should be can- celled and that I was on the road to sodomy. I It is patriarchal and unwelcoming. The church is was not on the road to sodomy but others were. all-male. It allows female servers — how marvel- Many of these people are still walking proud in lous — because they are in an ancillary, subservi- society because of their importance. ent role. They trot up and down and hand items to the priest. The recent furore over the Mater Hospital can- cer drug tests in which women taking the drug were advised not to become pregnant centred on Mr. B. Lenihan: There were no servers until the use of the word “contraceptive”. Are we liv- recently. ing in the real world? I wonder if the bishops think people do not understand the word “contra- Ms O’Rourke: It was a huge breakthrough. ception” or do not use contraception. Thankfully, One is pleased to see little girls serving at the the Mater Hospital saw sense and the cancer tri- altar. I hope they have always been safe. als are going ahead. That small issue showed the One wonders about chastity. I am aware of huge distance between the church and the people studies that say that celibacy is not a factor in it represents. Surely the day is gone when one child molestation by the clergy but I wonder could not utter the word “contraception” in case about that. one was damned forever. I do not offer any excuse for such behaviour There has been much talk about education. but I wonder whether it would be better to have Many primary schools have opened up their married clergy. One must also wonder whether boards of management and have a lay chairman. the situation would have been different if there However, few people want the job, which is laden were women priests. Women get parish council with responsibility, in-fighting over appointments roles or take responsibility for gathering money and parental complaints. It is inaccurate to say and other good deeds. They are also permitted to that every school board has a priest as chairman. administer the sacrament of communion. It is not On the contrary, many priests do not want to be a great deal. When there is more involvement by chairman of a school board. the laity in the running of church affairs, even 1377 Ferns Report: 10 November 2005. Statements 1378 setting aside the question of female clergy, it will whatever resources and expertise are necessary be a better day for the church. to examine this matter. Such an approach might This report is not the end of the road. Senator represent an initial step in finding some answers Feighan spoke about the inquiry to take place to the tragedies endured by so many families. If into events in the diocese of Dublin. I understand the incidence of abuse is seen to have been a the commission of inquiry that has been set up factor in such tragedies, we must pursue an inves- will have the power to call for investigations into tigation. other dioceses if evidence in this regard becomes There is no doubt that there has been some apparent. I am sure such evidence will emerge degree of denial and cover-up in the past three and that this will be an ongoing process. I would decades. The report mentions cases where some- be delighted to say that everybody has had a rude body was assigned to “keep an eye on” a priest awakening as a consequence of the revelations in who was known or suspected to have sexually Ferns and that nothing similar will occur in the abused a child or children. In one such instance, future. The reality, however, is that there will the person assigned this responsibility was not always be good and evil in every aspect of life. informed of the reason the priest in question Those forces have been in contention since the required supervision. There was always some- beginning of time. Will this be a fairy story in body withholding information. I concur with which good will triumph and no more evil will be Senator Henry’s observations regarding the com- perpetrated? I do not believe so because such an ments last night on a television programme that outcome is not realistic. other clergy may not have known of the activities The struggle must go on and the Ferns report of their abusive colleagues. I cannot understand represents a significant rebuff to the forces of evil how adults of academic standing could be within the church. An important issue is the unaware of what was involved in child sexual chasm in accountability in that a person who does abuse. It seems clear there was some level of not get redress from the church in Ireland must endeavour among the hierarchy to conceal what then go to Rome. It is a long way from Rome to was happening. here, and an arduous route for those who have All of us must commend Fr. Gerard McGinn- raised legitimate issues here to seek judgment ity. His efforts to assist the young seminarians and redress. Many of us are Catholic and it is who asked for his help exacted a great personal good that we can express our worries and fears in cost. His efforts were stamped on at every junc- a forum such as this. This State is republican in ture by those, including some in the highest ranks ethos and, as such, it should demand that every of the hierarchy, who wished to prevent any person be treated equally. investigation of his concerns. Individual bishops and other religious people decided that abusive Mr. U. Burke: I welcome the publication of the priests should be moved around to other minis- Ferns report and compliment those responsible tries. Fr. Sea´n Fortune, for example, was sent to for its compilation. The Minister of State, Deputy a new position in Westminster. He might not be Brian Lenihan, is to be commended on taking a known there. No report was sent to the new proactive stance in the aftermath of its publi- bishop who had taken him into his diocese about cation. It is hoped that the inquiry into events in the background and the circumstances under the Dublin diocese will be completed in 18 which he was transferred. That was endemic months. What of the other dioceses, however? throughout the country. Let nobody be fooled that abuse is not wide- spread. One might contend that some small dio- Mr. B. Lenihan: It was routine. ceses have had only one or two cases, as pub- lished, but the hidden reality is that there are far Mr. U. Burke: Indeed. I saw it occur myself more. Those who believe abuse is or has not been when a religious person who was head of a boys’ widespread are deluding themselves into a false school in England was taken back into a diocese sense of security. in this country in the full knowledge of the fact As a consequence of such abuse, the lives of that there were certain difficulties. The nature of many young people have been destroyed. Victims the difficulties should have been obvious to any- may get on with their lives but there is no denying body. However, they were put aside. The person the hurt and pain they must endure. Nobody who was brought back to minister in a parish. As soon has not experienced it will ever understand such as he arrived the same thing recurred. He was pain. Any person reading the fourth chapter of taken from one parish and put into another, the report can only respond with revulsion and obviously where somebody could keep an eye on anger. him. When people in authority in the church have I have formed a particular idea after reading the attitude that a person can be moved from one the report. Will the Minister of State investigate place to another where somebody can keep an the relationship between abuse, from whatever eye on him, it demonstrates an unwillingness to source, and suicide? Why is suicide such a major face the reality that something should have been affliction in this State? Those most likely to die done with him initially. through suicide are young adult males. There There has been much discussion about the must be some connection with the incidence of boards of management of schools. I hope the child abuse. I ask the Minister of State to allocate Minister of State, along with the Department of 1379 Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005: 10 November 2005. Committee and Remaining Stages 1380

[Mr. U. Burke.] An Cathaoirleach: I agree but I hesitate about Education and Science, will immediately initiate a mentioning people. complete reappraisal of what has happened with these boards in the past. We must learn from the Mr. U. Burke: I yield to your ruling, a mistakes. There is no longer a place for the dicta- Chathaoirligh. In one instance an eminent person torial position of the religious on the boards of was clearly put in place because he was a personal management. Usually the parish priest is con- friend. Again we see the “safe hands” attitude. sidered the only person capable and worthy of We are talking about the failure of the Depart- the position of chairman of the board of manage- ment of Education and Science and the failure of ment of a national school. Something must be the Garda in some instances. The health board done about this. was probably one of the statutory bodies that did Consider the structure of the boards of man- vindicate itself to some degree. However, in all agement of schools. I was once a member of a instances what screams from the report is the fact board of management. There were always those that people were in denial. They refused to accept on the board who were known as “safe hands” to what happened. People in authority pushed the represent the trustees or the bishops. These were matter sideways to ensure it was forgotten. model people who were put there for a reason. I complimented the Minister on taking a pro- They would not rock the boat in the event of active attitude towards this report. His work to difficulties arising. date is commendable. However, I ask him and According to the report, a cleric was taken the Minister for Education and Science to take from the staff of a vocational school and put on immediate action with regard to the boards of the board of management of a national school in management. What is happening with these the parish to which he was transferred. That was boards, and what happened previously, cannot be irresponsible and the person who did it should allowed to continue. There must be a reappraisal have to answer for it. of the boards. I urge them to do whatever is necessary to Mr. B. Lenihan: He was put in both positions investigate the link with suicide, particularly with but he was removed immediately from the regard to the group I mentioned. In addition, it is vocational school. important that the vetting which has been men- tioned so often in the past few days is Mr. U. Burke: Yes. implemented for all, both religious and lay per- sonnel, who are involved at any level with chil- Mr. B. Lenihan: That reinforces the Senator’s dren. Ultimately, it is inevitable that the churches point. will lose out dramatically for a period. That is evi- dent from the younger generation and it is no Mr. U. Burke: The bishop was asked to remove wonder. him from the board of management but failed to In the communications the bishops have with do so. the Minister they must be up front in providing Some of the psychiatric and psychologists’ information. I am certain that this is latent in all reports in the Ferns report are unbelievable, the other dioceses, probably proportionate to the particularly the contribution and statements of populations. When one considers that this applies Dr. Ingo Fischer to the inquiry. They lack any to 3% of the religious, how much more does it degree of credibility. apply to lay people? There is something there and it must be removed. It is a cancer in our society An Cathaoirleach: I do not know if it is fair to and I hope all the resources necessary will be pro- comment on persons. vided by Government to remove it.

Mr. U. Burke: He is mentioned in the report. An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Lydon. The Senator has 15 minutes. An Cathaoirleach: He is not in a position to reply. Mr. Lydon: With just a minute available, might it not be more appropriate to wait until next Mr. U. Burke: I will refrain from using names. week? He is not the only one. The only reason I mention him is that I had the pleasure of attending a sem- An Cathaoirleach: I agree. inar at which he was present many years ago. I Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at wondered if it was the same man, given the total 2 p.m. lack of responsibility, as portrayed in this report, in his efforts and endeavours. He is mentioned in the report. Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005: Committee and Remaining Stages. Mr. B. Lenihan: No allegation is made against him in the report, a Chathaoirligh. NEW SECTIONS. Acting Chairman (Mr. U. Burke): Amend- Mr. U. Burke: That is correct. ments Nos. 3, 4 and 6 are consequential to 1381 Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005: 10 November 2005. Committee and Remaining Stages 1382 amendment No. 1. Amendments Nos. 1, 3, 4 and it is operated in other countries. This is significant 6 may be discussed together by agreement. because there are a large number of leasing com- panies in this country with operators based in Mr. P. Burke: I move amendment No. 1: Ireland. The Minister of State must carefully con- sider these interlinked amendments. It makes no In page 3, before section 1, to insert the fol- sense to deal with one and not the others. lowing new section: “1.—In this Act— Minister of State at the Department of Trans- ‘the Act of 1993’ means the Irish Aviation port (Mr. Callely): I thank Senator Paddy Burke Authority Act 1993; not only for his comments on the floor of the House but for the concerns he has expressed on ‘the Act of 1998’ means the Air Navigation these issues outside the House. I understand why and Transport (Amendment) Act 1998.”. he tabled these amendments. I welcome the Minister of State at the Depart- The amendments arise from concerns about ment of Transport, Deputy Callely, to the House. the detention and sale of aircraft for non-pay- On Second Stage I said that we have no problem ment of airport, air navigation and communi- with this important Bill’s speedy passage through cation charges. Ireland has taken a policy decision the House. However, some concerns, of which I not to impose the provisions of the revised Euro- am sure the Minister of State is aware, have control convention on joint and several liability emerged, particularly regarding how Eurocontrol in the case of unpaid Eurocontrol en route will affect Irish-based companies and operators charges. This Bill does not incorporate the pro- in the aviation industry. These amendments have visions in Annex 4 of the revised convention. A been tabled to ensure the Bill gives an under- number of questions have been raised on the taking to Irish-based operating and leasing powers of detention and sale of aircraft contained companies. in earlier Acts, in particular the Air Navigation I congratulate Eurocontrol on the tremendous and Transport (Amendment) Act 1998, and job it does. Worldwide, it has over 2,000 staff and whether the provisions of those Acts accord with co-ordinates 35 national aviation authorities, in the policy on liability now being adopted. addition to joint aviation authorities. It co- I have received advice on this matter from ordinates hundreds of airports and airlines rang- officials who have already commenced a consul- ing in size from a single aircraft to medium-sized tation process with various interested parties. Fol- companies, such as Aer Lingus and Ryanair, to lowing the process I may bring forward amend- enormous international fleets, such as Air France, ments to existing legislation in this area. To assist KLM, Lufthansa and British Airways. It also co- the discussion today I propose that, with the ordinates other aircraft, both private and military, agreement of the House, subject to the analysis the European Aviation Safety Authority, NATO, being complete any such amendments would be the European Space Agency, the European Com- proposed on Committee Stage in the Da´il and the mission, the International Civil Aviation Auth- Bill reported back to the Seanad. I will be happy ority and many more. It is a huge undertaking for to keep Senators Burke and Wilson informed of the agency’s 2,000 staff who process 25,000 flights developments so they are fully au fait with the daily. It is an enormous effort to track these proposals. flights, many of which go through different air- Ireland is one of the eight states of the 35 spaces and route charging systems. Bringing all members of Eurocontrol still to ratify the conven- this together requires great diligence on behalf of tion. The revised convention cannot come into the staff. force until all member states complete their ratifi- The amendments I have tabled are to put the cation procedures. In order to complete our own Irish-based aviation industry operators on an ratification procedures my Department is anxious even keel with their counterparts in other coun- to have the Bill on the Da´il Order Paper at the tries. On Second Stage, I noted that, as the Bill is earliest possible date. I will ask officials to com- presented, there would be an unfair advantage to plete the consultation quickly and report to me operators working in other states. When one con- as soon as possible. I hope there will be no delay siders the number of leasing companies and oper- in the passage of the Bill through both Houses. ators working out of Ireland, these amendments must be carefully considered. Mr. P. Burke: I am not clear if the Minister Aviation companies operating in Ireland are at of State promised to introduce amendments on a disadvantage in how Eurocontrol will charge or Committee Stage in the Da´il. put a lean on an aircraft. In some cases, the oper- ator of the aircraft may also be its owner. Mr. Callely: It depends on the consultation. However, in most cases aircraft operators lease craft from leasing companies. A situation could Mr. P. Burke: The Minister of State says he arise where an operator would run up large bills has initiated a consultation process with various with Eurocontrol. If the operator fails to pay, operators in the airline industry. Eurocontrol can ground the aircraft and pursue the leasing company, the ultimate owners of the Mr. Callely: My departmental officials have aircraft. This is unfair when compared with how done so. 1383 Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005: 10 November 2005. Committee and Remaining Stages 1384

Mr. P. Burke: I also have had extensive consul- ments Nos. 2, 5 and 7 may be discussed together tation with various operators in recent days and by agreement. there is great concern on their part, whether they be airline operators or leasing companies. They Mr. P. Burke: I move amendment No. 2: are worried about the fact that, for example, an In page 3, before section 1, to insert the fol- Italian airline became insolvent owing Eurocon- lowing new section: trol \17 million, which is an enormous amount of money. If a person was allowed to run up that “1.—In this Act— debt to a bank there would not be much sym- ‘the Act of 1993’ means the Irish Aviation pathy for the bank. I do not have much sympathy Authority Act 1993; for Eurocontrol, who do not enforce the law efficiently. If Eurocontrol can ground an aircraft ‘the Protocol of 1997’ means the Protocol in to secure payment of the charges it does not have the Schedule to this Act.”. to go after the other assets of a company. The I intend to withdraw these amendments but I company can go into liquidation and there is no would like to hear the Minister of State’s views great need for Eurocontrol to pursue it. on them. The protocol was agreed by various If departmental officials have an extensive con- companies in 1997 and involved issues such as the sultation with operators they will be made aware open skies agreement. The views of the Minister of aspects of the Bill that might militate against of State may be relevant for another Bill. the interests of Irish operators. Our priority is attracting and keeping jobs and business here. Mr. Callely: I indicated during the debate on There are a number of very large international Second Stage that Articles 5 to 9 of Annex IV leasing companies operating out of Shannon and to the revised convention refer to the issues of they are worried that the law will work against attaching the en route charge as a lien on the air- them. I welcome the Minister of State’s plans for craft, making the operator and owner jointly and a consultation period. I will give the Bill my bless- severally liable. It enables detention and sale of ing to go to Committee Stage in the Da´il, though aircraft to enforce recovery. Ireland is under no I appreciate there is a problem getting the Bill compulsion to legislate for creation of liens or onto the Order Paper for the Da´il. This is an joint and several liability as to the owner and important issue for jobs in Ireland and people in operator of the aircraft. The State has not made this industry. I received a call from Mr. Sea´n provision for this in the published Bill. Hehir this morning, one of many callers, who is By not introducing the creation of a lien and managing director of AIG which insures many joint and several liability, Ireland cannot be said aircraft for leasing companies. He is worried not to be discharging its obligation under the new about this legislation. Eurocontrol convention. It is a matter of choice for a contracting party to introduce domestic law to this effect. We are not providing for the Mr. Callely: Senator Burke raised this when I creation of liens or joint and several liability in last spoke in this House on the issue. Senator this Bill. The provisions of Articles 5 to 9 of Wilson was in contact with me this morning on Annex IV to the revised convention will not have the subject of the amendments to ask exactly any force in Ireland. I have been advised that it where we were in the process. I hope the House is unnecessary to expressly include a reservation will appreciate that I do not want to pre-empt in the Bill relating to these articles. I am pleased how we enter the process. to hear that Senator Burke is withdrawing the The Bill will provide the backdrop to the con- amendments. sultation process. I hear what Senator Burke has said and am aware of other similar issues that Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. have been brought to my attention. I will ask my officials to enter into those consultations with an Section 1 agreed to. open mind in the context of the Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005 and report to me as Amendment No. 3 not moved. quickly as possible. I am not in a position to give any guarantees today. It would be wrong to do so Sections 2 to 4, inclusive, agreed to. as I do not wish my officials to go into consul- tations with one hand tied. We should approach Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 not moved. the consultations in an open and transparent fashion and my officials will keep Senators Burke Section 5 agreed to. and Wilson briefed as far as possible. Should Schedule agreed to. amendments be tabled I will keep the Seanad informed on how we proceed. Amendment Nos. 6 and 7 not moved.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Title agreed to.

Acting Chairman: Amendments Nos. 5 and 7 Bill reported without amendment and received are consequential to amendment No. 2. Amend- for final consideration. 1385 Dublin Port 10 November 2005. Tunnel 1386

Question proposed: “That the Bill do now The Irish Aviation Authority, as our commer- pass.” cial State-sponsored body, does a good job in the provision of safe, orderly and efficient air navi- Mr. P. Burke: We do not usually take Commit- gation services in Irish-controlled airspace and in tee and Report Stages together, as amendments regulating the safety standards of Irish civil avi- could be tabled again on Report Stage if one was ation. In fulfilling its role across a range of oper- not happy with the passage of the Bill in question. ational and technical regulatory functions, the The Minister of State in this case wishes to get IAA operates to international safety standards the legislation on the Order Paper in the Da´il. He and procedures laid down by various organis- has undertaken to put forward the Bill on Com- ations. The Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill mittee Stage in the Da´il and promised that a con- 2005 will further strengthen the IAA in its func- sultation process will occur. tions and roles. The legislation can be likened to when one I will take this opportunity to put on the record rents a car. Speeding fines and parking tickets of the House my appreciation to the IAA’s chief could be run up but the rental agency could be executive officer, Mr. Eamonn Brennan, his man- left with the bill. Such a situation will disadvan- agement team and each and every one of the tage Irish operators, and I hope the Minister of IAA’s employees. Heavy emphasis is placed on State will do all in his power to examine the issues its team spirit as everyone plays a fundamental relating to my amendments. I thank the Minister and pivotal role. In light of the recent death of its of State for the manner in which he has dealt with chairman, I will take this opportunity to salute the Bill, and his knowledge of the legislation and and pay particular tribute to Mr. Donal Geaney the aviation industry. I thank his advisors for for the significant work he undertook. I sympath- their assistance and wish the Bill well. ise with his wife Ann and his family on their loss, which was ultimately sudden. Mr. Wilson: I thank the Minister of State for I thank the Acting Chairman, the House’s coming into this House on many occasions in past administrative and support staff and the few weeks, particularly those visits relating to the Members. On behalf of the Minister for Trans- Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005. I thank port, Deputy Cullen, and myself, I thank the him and his officials for the work put into this Department’s officials back at the ranch, for want important legislation. I thank Senator Burke for of a better description, and those who have joined his positive contribution on Second and other me here, Mr. Kevin Doyle and Mr. Fintan Towey. Stages of this Bill. I also thank the other speakers I hope that what we have done today will allow who contributed from all sides of the House. I Ireland to ratify this important convention at the wish the Bill a speedy passage through the other earliest possible opportunity. House and I agree with Senator Burke in hoping that his concerns will be considered in the Da´il. Question put and agreed to.

Minister of State at the Department of Trans- Acting Chairman: When is it proposed to sit port (Mr. Callely): I thank the Acting Chairman again? and all Members in the Seanad for their co-oper- ation in ensuring the successful passage of the Air Mr. Wilson: At 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 15 Navigation (Eurocontrol) Bill 2005 through the November 2005. House. I thank the many Members who spoke on Second Stage. I have noted the various points raised by Adjournment Matters. Members and assure them that these issues will receive my attention. I appreciate from a business ———— perspective the manner in which Senator Paddy Burke has expressed his concerns and reser- Dublin Port Tunnel. vations with one aspect of the Bill. I am sure Senator Burke will support the view that my Mr. Morrissey: I thank the Minister of State at officials should enter consultations with the Bill the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, for approved, but bearing in mind the concerns addressing this matter. I have raised this issue a raised by Senator Burke and others. It is number of times over the past two years and do important that consultations are entered into with so again due to the ongoing public debate con- the Bill in hand. cerning an impending height restriction on large Senators Burke, Dooley and Wilson have vehicles. I wish to put on record the contents of raised other issues along with the matter of liens Mr. Pat Kenny’s radio interview with the senior and liabilities. I will give the Senators an under- Dublin City Council engineer, Mr. Michael taking to keep them fully informed of the devel- Philips, on 6 October regarding the Dublin Port opments as we proceed. It is important that I tunnel. acknowledge the very constructive manner in which this House has gone about its business on Acting Chairman: The Senator should refrain this issue and its accommodation in passing Com- from naming someone who is not present to mittee Stage today. defend himself. 1387 Dublin Port 10 November 2005. Tunnel 1388

Mr. Morrissey: Much misinformation has been and dimensions for vehicles in the European put into the public arena. For example, comments Union. The purpose of this directive is to support to the effect that there are 9,000 trucks travelling the Single Market in road haulage. It does so by in both directions on the quays were made in that requiring member states to accommodate and interview. We are speaking about how many allow motor vehicles complying with the specifi- trucks will be accommodated in the tunnel and cations for weights and dimensions set out in the taken off our streets but the most senior people directive to circulate throughout the territory of involved do not know how many trucks there are, the European Union. A member state cannot giving a figure of 18,000, which is twice as many prohibit the use in its own territory of such as is the case. Most bizarrely, the engineer went vehicles from another member state. While on to say the reason we have 5.3 m. bridges on member states may introduce separate standards our motorways is not to accommodate trucks but for domestic transport operations, such standards road surfacing over the years. Have Members do not affect the right of international transport ever heard anything so outlandish? operations complying with the EU directive to It was said that these trucks are not allowed operate. anywhere in Europe except Spain and the United The directive sets a limit value on vehicle Kingdom. I recently visited Helsinki, where a new height of 4 m. This means that a member state port is being built in Vuosaari. A tunnel from that cannot reject or prohibit the use in its own terri- port will transport all of the newsprint and paper tory, either by international or national traffic, of products used in this country, possibly even the vehicles up to and including 4 m. in height. It may paper from which I am reading. This tunnel has do so for vehicles of a greater height. I am aware an operational height of 5 m. However, senior of the debate on the height of so-called “super- politicians and engineers here say these trucks are cubes” and ordinary heavy goods vehicle. If we not allowed anywhere. make a recommendation in this area, the issues It is a numbers game, namely, how many trucks to be considered are the impact it will have on there are, but this should not be the case. The the Irish road haulage industry and, equally, how goods in those trucks generate thousands of jobs it would be enforced. in this economy, many of which are in manufac- In October 2004, the Minister for Transport, turing. We have a declining manufacturing base Deputy Cullen, announced that the operational due to our competitiveness and peripherality. The height of the Dublin Port tunnel would not be argument is bogus if it is based on numbers of changed. Therefore, the Dublin Port tunnel will trucks because it is quality not quantity that be completed as planned with an operational counts in this instance. I do not mind whether the height of 4.65 m. My local newspaper Northside figure is 180 or 280 trucks. The real point is what People received correspondence about me and is in those trucks, and bears little relation to our the Dublin Port tunnel. I wish to take this oppor- trumpeted manufacturing ability, peripherality tunity to clarify to Members of the House and the and competitiveness. newspaper’s readers that the contractual arrange- In respect of the potential limitations, under ments are for the Dublin Port tunnel to be com- what section of the Road Traffic Act 2004 or pleted in December 2005. We estimate that the other legislation can a Minister act unilaterally period of operational and safety tests will take without consulting our EU partners? There is no approximately 12 to 16 weeks, after which we will maximum height restriction on trucks in this be in a position to formally open the tunnel to country. The trucks we are discussing have been traffic. The tests are to ensure that appropriate licensed by the Department of the Environment, supports will be in place, whatever the volume of Heritage and Local Government for approxi- traffic in the tunnel at any given time. It would mately 15 years. Senior people involved say the be remiss of me to change those dates because trucks have only been here since 2000 and they that is the contractual arrangement. If overruns do not want them any more but this is not the occur I will seek to reduce them and try to have case. Much misinformation has been put into the the tunnel opened as quickly as possible. The public arena, which is why I wish to set out these operational height of the tunnel, when complete, few facts. I also wish to move the debate on by will be greater than the height limit applicable in determining which legislation allows the Minister most other EU member states and the height to act unilaterally. limit set in Directive 96/53/EC. I apologise for submitting this as an Adjourn- Dublin City Council and the NRA have made ment matter. I know that the Minister for Trans- known to the Department their view that the port and the Minister of State have attended Dublin Port tunnel will facilitate almost all of the often but we do not have enough wide-ranging heavy goods vehicles currently using Dublin Port. debates to cover all of these points. I await the The Dublin Port Company and the National Minister of State’s reply. Institute of Transport and Logistics each carried out a vehicle height survey, both of which indi- Minister of State at the Department of Trans- cate that between 0.6% to 1.7 % of heavy goods port (Mr. Callely): I thank my good friend and vehicles entering and leaving the port exceed 4.65 colleague, Senator Morrissey, for raising this m. I do not know when those surveys were car- issue. I take it the Senator is referring to ried out. I will ask my Department to inform Directive 96/53/EC relating to maximum weights Senator Morrissey on that if he so wishes. 1389 School Opening 10 November 2005. Hours 1390

I also researched this issue, simply by making priate communication. I understand we were direct contact with some of the main players in burned in the past, I was not at the Department the Irish market. I understand that cab height at the time. We should first establish and clarify does not count, the trailer height is taken into the domestic situation and resolve the complex account and curtain trailers are referred to as “su- issues. I am considering a Department report on percubes”. Concern exists on the impact the the outcome of the consultation process with the directive may have on the haulage industry in public and interested parties, and it is my inten- terms of costs, competitiveness, job creation or tion to make a decision on the matter before the losses, changing trends in haulage and whether end of the year. In the event of a decision to one double-stacks the pallet or whether they must introduce any restriction on height or weight, it be carried singly. These issues must be taken will be necessary to continue interaction. More into consideration. importantly, if change occurs to the directive it Senator Morrissey raised the important point will be necessary to consult with the European of weight. We must examine not only the impact Commission before the necessary statutory of height but also that of weight. We received a instrument can be made. For the benefit of the number of views on the issue of safety, including House and Senator Morrissey, such consultation from the Garda Sı´ocha´na and Iarnro´ dE´ ireann. is obligatory under Directive 98/34/EC on techni- One can understand their position but we must cal standards and regulations. I assure the seek clarity on whether safety issues surround the Senator that will be adhered to. As he knows, I height or weight of vehicles. The question of go about my business in the correct and proper whether there should be a maximum vehicle manner. height is a complex issue. A range of factors of national importance such as business competi- School Opening Hours. tiveness, rail safety, environmental and quality of life issues, protection of existing infrastructure, Mr. Browne: I welcome the Minister to the and the need for certainty in planning for future House. I appreciate the fact she has come in per- infrastructure investment must be taken into son to the House and taken time out of her busy account in considering this matter. Those are only schedule to deal with this Adjournment matter. some of the factors involved and that is why it is Both the Minister and I were teachers before a complex issue. entering politics. A lady came to my office I have some knowledge of this issue, as Dublin recently and told me her daughter attends a Port is close to my constituency. The airport and school in Carlow town. The school day starts at one of the main arterial routes into the city are 9.20 a.m. but the school has now introduced a rule also located in my constituency. I also have many that the children cannot access the building until friends in business and I am familiar with the 9.15 a.m. This may be tolerable in May, June and movement of goods and heavy goods vehicles. September when the weather is good but it Shortly after arriving at the Department I presents difficulties in the winter months. I announced that I would not make any decision on appreciate the question of who is in charge and the re-introduction of a maximum vehicle height, the liability of teachers and principals may be a which was 4.25 m., until the views of all interested grey area in this context. In most schools many parties had been considered. Last December, I staff members arrive early in the morning and published a consultation paper outlining the cen- would have no difficulty with the children tral issues relating to vehicle height and invited accessing the classrooms, especially on a bad interested parties and the public to submit their morning. views on the issues. A total of 46 submissions I ask the Minister to clarify the procedure in were received from corporate entities, represen- the case of a school where formal classes begin at tative groups and individuals. The responses to 9.20 a.m. When are children entitled to enter the the public consultation process confirm the dif- building, especially on a wet day? Are schools fering sectoral viewpoints held on the matter. permitted to introduce local by-laws? For Given the level of engagement with organisations instance, a boys’ school next door to the school in and the public at large, the suggestion that no question has a different set of rules. I left teaching consultation took place is not correct. I have been three years ago and since then teachers are payed in regular contact with the IRHA and the for lunchtime supervision. This may have had a umbrella group—— knock-on effect. I appreciate the Minister coming to the House to clarify the matter. Mr. Morrissey: What about consultation with EU partners, not consultation within the country? Minister for Education and Science (Ms Hanafin): I wish to thank the Senator for raising Mr. Callely: That is a must and of course we this matter and I agree that it is a grey area. I will apply EU regulations and are happy to do so. We take the opportunity to outline what is stated in keep in regular communication and consultation the rules and the supervision arrangements, with the EU. which may be of help to the Senator. In accord- On the question of whether we should intro- ance with the provisions of the Education Act duce a maximum height in Ireland it would be 1998, the board of management and principal foolhardy of us to proceed without having appro- teacher of individual primary schools have the 1391 The 10 November 2005. Adjournment 1392

[Ms Hanafin.] vidually and collectively to provide a duty of care responsibility for the day-to-day management of at all times towards the children in the school in their schools. In fulfilling their role in this regard which they teach, including periods of they are required to take appropriate steps to supervision. ensure the safety of both pupils and staff. In 2003, following agreement between my The rules for national schools specify that a Department and the relevant interests, my school shall be open to receive the pupils not Department issued circular 29/03 to all primary later than 9.30 a.m. The typical timetable for a schools on the subject of grants available to school day comprises five hours and 40 minutes, schools for supervision of pupils. This circular broken down between periods of secular instruc- outlines the position on the provision of funding tion, religious instruction and break times. The for supervision in schools on the basis of an esti- first 20 minutes of the school day are spent on mated need of 37 hours supervision per annum assembly time which is defined as the period per whole›time teacher equivalent or a minimum when all teachers are working with children in of 122 hours per school, whichever is the greater. their classrooms, checking homework, providing It may be of interest to the Senator to know that additional instruction and other teaching and in determining the number of hours which should learning activities. All pupils are expected to be be allocated to schools, the need for supervision for a period of time outside of the normal class in the school for the commencement of assembly contact time was taken into account. This allo- time. The rule states the starting time as no later cation also takes account of the nature and extent than 9.30 a.m. but does not specify a starting time. of supervision required, the age range of the In accordance with the Safety, Health and Wel- pupils and guarantees the levels of care and fare at Work Act 1989, it is the responsibility of supervision provided to all pupils. individual school management authorities to have As Senator Browne noted, the degree of super- a safety statement in place in their schools. The vision required of school authorities varies with statement should identify potential hazards, the circumstances, including the age of the child. assess the risks to health and safety and put The existence and scope of the supervision appropriate provisions in place to safeguard the required can be controlled by effective communi- safety and health of employees and pupils. The cation with the parents, involving, for example, safety statement should be reviewed on a reg- written notes of acceptance by the parents that ular basis. pupils are not to arrive before a certain time. The overall responsibility for the day-to-day When deciding on its policy on this issue, a board management of school supervision rests with the of management would normally take into account principal teacher. The terms of circular 16/73, the time at which pupils availing of school trans- which was issued to all schools, continue to apply, port arrive at the school, for example. The rules namely that the principal teacher should organise set out the latest time at which a school shall supervision for the order and general behaviour open. The rules and the Safety, Health and Wel- of the pupils during school hours. In particular, fare at Work Act, set out the duties regarding she or he should organise and participate in the supervision and the supervision scheme allows for effective supervision of the pupils during breaks, teachers to be paid outside of those school hours lunch breaks, assembly and dismissal. and which would include the early morning times The rules then oblige teachers to take all as referred to by the Senator. I hope this clarifies reasonable precautions to ensure the safety of the situation. pupils and to participate in supervising pupils Mr. Browne: I thank the Minister. when the pupils are on school premises, during school time and-or on school activities. Accord- The Seanad adjourned at 2.55 p.m. until ingly, there is a responsibility on all teachers indi- 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 15 November 2005.