Wednesday Volume 523 16 February 2011 No. 120

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 16 February 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 939 16 FEBRUARY 2011 940

one to which I referred. Britain is not in the lead on House of Commons Haiti—this is very much an American, French and Canadian lead—but we are, as he explained, giving Wednesday 16 February 2011 strong support through international and multilateral agencies, including the UN and the World Bank. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mark Lazarowicz: We certainly welcome the fact that British aid is helping the poor and most vulnerable in PRAYERS Haiti. We support that, but unfortunately, it is a different story just 100 miles north of Haiti in the Turks and [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Caicos Islands, to which the Department for International Development has just agreed to write an unprecedented loan of £160 million, which is much greater than any Oral Answers to Questions previous support for a British overseas territory. Surely the priority for DFID in the Caribbean should be meeting the needs of the poorest and most vulnerable in INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT places such as Haiti, so may I ask the Secretary of State— The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Speaker: Order. The question must relate to Haiti Haiti and only to Haiti. 1. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): What recent Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman refers to problems assessment he has made of the humanitarian situation some miles away from Haiti. However, if I may say so, in Haiti. [40971] he has a bit of a brass neck. We inherited a terrible mess in the area not far from Haiti to which he refers, and it is The Secretary of State for International Development thanks to the brilliant work conducted by the Minister (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Although the number of people of State that the British taxpayer has now given a in camps in Haiti has fallen by half to 800,000 since last guarantee, which hopefully will allow the place not far July, Haiti continues to face serious humanitarian challenges. from Haiti to sort out its problems without further cost to the British taxpayer. Caroline Dinenage: The President of Haiti famously said that it would take a thousand trucks a thousand Mr Speaker: We now know more about Haiti and days to clear the devastation, but the people do not have some miles away. a thousand days, because they are suffering disease and crime, and they do not have a thousand trucks. What India more can the international community do to tackle the problem? 2. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What his Department’s policy is on providing aid to India; and if Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is right to identify the he will make a statement. [40972] scale of the damage and of what is required to put it right. We are working directly on tackling the threat of The Secretary of State for International Development cholera, and working through the UN and the World (Mr Andrew Mitchell): From now on in India, we will Bank on some of the more serious aspects of what focus our support on three of the poorest states. Our needs to happen to bring the relief that is required . programme will change to reflect the importance of the role of the private sector and private enterprise. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): I advise you, Mr Speaker, and the House, that Philip Davies: India spends $36 billion a year on my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for defence and $750 million on a space programme. It has Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), the shadow one of the fastest-growing economies in the world and Secretary of State, cannot be here today because she is is developing its own overseas aid programme. Given on jury service. that we must cut public expenditure in this country, will As well direct assistance to Haiti, which we support, the Secretary of State accept that many of my constituents Britain has contributed more than $100 million through will think that such aid to India is now unjustifiable? multilateral organisations such as the World Bank and the European Union, as the Secretary of State said. Mr Mitchell: That is why our programme in India is Does he agree that it is important for the UK to in transition, why we will focus on three of the poorest continue to make substantial contributions to such states in the country and why, over the next four years, organisations if the world community is to provide the up to half the programme will transition into pro-poor scale of long-term support for reconstruction that Haiti private sector investment. That is the right way for us to requires? position our development work in the partnership with India, which is of course much wider than development, Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman is right to put it and which the Prime Minister very significantly re-energised that way. Britain was a key part of the immediate, in his major visit last year. emergency relief in the aftermath of those dreadful events in Haiti. There was generous support from across Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I congratulate Britain through the Disasters Emergency Committee the Secretary of State on continuing with the £280 million appeal, and we made a number of specific surgical each year to India. That is vital given that India has a interventions towards the end of last year, including the quarter of the world’s poorest people living within its 941 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 942 borders. How does he intend to focus the aid in those 5. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): On what date three states, particularly with regard to the health of he expects the next Friends of Yemen meeting to take young women? place; and if he will make a statement. [40975]

Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman is right that there The Minister of State, Department for International are more poor people in India than in the whole of Development (Mr Alan Duncan): We expect the next sub-Saharan Africa. He is right, too, that we should Friends of Yemen meeting to take place in Riyadh at focus on the poorest areas, and particularly on the role the end of March. I visited Saudi Arabia last weekend of girls and women. Over future years, we expect to be and was afterwards with the Foreign Secretary in Yemen. able to assist in ensuring that up to 4 million women We are continuing to work with both countries to agree have access to income through micro-finance and through a firm date for the next meeting. focusing particularly on livelihoods. We will also support, of course, the strong programme on education in India. Rehman Chishti: Given the turmoil in the region, About 60 million children have been got into school what is the Minister’s assessment of the situation in over the last four or five years, which is a tremendous Yemen and of the Friends of Yemen process? How will tribute to the work of the Indian Government, but it it stop the state failing and assist in an orderly succession would not have been possible without the intervention and economic progress following the commitment by of aid and support from Britain and elsewhere. the President not to stand at the next election?

Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): Does the Secretary Mr Duncan: Recent events demonstrate more than of State agree that it is worth recording that to lift the ever the importance of the Friends of Yemen process to poorest people in India out of poverty by $1 a day prevent state failure in that country. I welcome President would cost $166 billion a year, so it is appropriate to Saleh’s speech on 2 February, committing to follow the continue our transitional arrangements with India? The constitution of Yemen and not to seek re-election after International Development Committee will visit India 2013. Through the Friends of Yemen process, we will next month and we will want to see how DFID’s work to support political reform and the right of all relationship with the country, albeit with a relatively Yemenis to participate legitimately and democratically small amount in comparison with the challenge of the in their political future. problem, can deliver an accelerated reduction of poverty there. Mark Pritchard: Is it not the case that a secure and prosperous Yemen is very much in the UK national Mr Mitchell: I am grateful to the Chairman of the security interest? Will my right hon. Friend inform the Select Committee for that comment and also to the House what new measures have been put in place to Select Committee itself for going to look with care at ensure that those objectives are delivered? development in India and the operation of our programme there. He accurately identifies the scale of need. It is Mr Duncan: We have seen substantial progress on worth noting that the number of the Indian population many fronts since the New York Friends of Yemen living on less than 80p a day is 7.5 times the total meeting, and I particularly highlight the Yemeni population of Britain. That puts in context the basic Government’s adherence to an International Monetary nature of this need and shows why Britain’s partnership Fund financial reform programme and progress made is so important. towards completing their five-year development plan for poverty reduction. We are close to establishing a multi-donor trust fund for Yemen. The Riyadh Friends Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Is of Yemen meeting will continue the support of Yemen’s the Secretary of State aware of the claims made by the friends for political and economic reform in the pursuit Jubilee Debt Campaign and Jubilee Scotland that the of democracy, stability and prosperity. work of the UK’s Export Credits Guarantee Department has been funding work in India that is undermining Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I warmly welcome development and human rights? I declare an interest in the Minister’s visit to Yemen last week. I ask him to put that I was until recently a board member of Jubilee one item on the agenda of the Friends of Yemen Scotland. I ask the Secretary of State to investigate and meeting—namely, the redevelopment and refurbishment report back to the House on that matter. of the Aden hospital, which has been ongoing for a number of years. Good health facilities would be of Mr Mitchell: The hon. Lady will have heard what has huge benefit to local people in what is one of the been said about the Export Credits Guarantee poorest countries on earth. Department—that it is at the moment being looked at carefully to ensure that it supports our development Mr Duncan: We do not tend to get involved in large aims. She might also like to look at the trade White infrastructure projects, but health in Yemen is at the top Paper published last week, which specifically addresses of our agenda. I well appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s the role of the ECGD in development and in supporting close personal association with Aden, and I undertake British exports overseas. to give the matter a special personal look.

Friends of Yemen Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab): Although I acknowledge the link between poverty 3. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): and security, not least in Yemen, may I invite the On what date he expects the next Friends of Yemen Minister of State to confirm that DFID sees addressing meeting to take place; and if he will make a statement. poverty among the poorest people in the poorest countries [40973] as its supreme challenge and as being at its heart? 943 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 944

Mr Duncan: Yes, poverty reduction is at the core of used for extremist purposes? Will he take steps to stop everything that the Department does, but I urge the that and ensure that aid gets to the Palestinians who right hon. Gentleman to appreciate that no fragile need it most? country has ever achieved a single millennium development goal. Preventing state failure is much less costly than Mr Duncan: I do not share my hon. Friend’s conclusion. dealing with a failed state afterwards. We are very careful how we spend our money in the occupied Palestinian territories and have done our utmost Palestine to support the legitimate government of Salam Fayyad with, I think, great success. We would abhor any money 4. Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): What falling into the hands of extremists, and we do everything development support his Department provides to the possible to ensure that such an accusation can never be Palestinian Authority and to Israeli non-governmental verified or proved valid. organisations working in the west bank. [40974] Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): The The Minister of State, Department for International Minister will know that many in the House and beyond Development (Mr Alan Duncan): We provide financial continue to be deeply concerned about the desperate and technical assistance to the Palestinian Authority. In situation in Gaza. What efforts are the Government this financial year, our support will total £31.1 million. making to ensure that Israel lifts the blockade of Gaza, DFID also co-funds the UK conflict pool, which supports which leaves many dependent on UN aid? Given the five Israeli human rights NGOs operating in the west situation in Egypt, will the Minister update us on the bank. position at the Rafah crossing, and on what action will be taken to ensure that humanitarian aid can be delivered Mr Walker: I recently took part in a delegation to to those who need it most? Jerusalem and the occupied Palestinian territories of the west bank, and I refer the House to my related entry Mr Duncan: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary in the register. During the visit, we met many Israeli and all Ministers make our views clear on this matter. human rights organisations and NGOs involved in the Prime Minister Netanyahu and Tony Blair announced a peace process, some of which receive financial support package covering the west bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem from the UK Government. All of them were concerned on 4 February.Gaza measures included new reconstruction at moves by elements of the nationalist right to crack project approvals and a timetable for exports. We have down on and embarrass organisations in receipt of welcomed that, but implementation in practice will be overseas funding, no matter how legitimate— the key.

Mr Speaker: Order. I am extremely grateful to the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) hon. Gentleman, but this is Question Time. (LD): The Department’s work on conflict prevention and resolution is much appreciated. Can the Minister Mr Duncan: My hon. Friend refers to a proposed assure the House that this work in the middle east— panel of inquiry on the Israeli side, to look into the Palestine, Israel and elsewhere—will be continued in the funding of its NGOs. Our ambassador to Tel Aviv forthcoming years, and that the budget for it will be discussed the issue with the Israeli ambassador to the protected, and perhaps grown, even given the wider UK, Ron Prosor, shortly after the Knesset vote on the budget obligations? issue. Officials raised the matter with one of the two members of the Knesset who had pressed for such Mr Duncan: I absolutely share the views of my right hon. funding investigation. We do not want such investigations Friend. This is a crucial part of DFID’s agenda, and to impede the legitimate work of NGOs in the west essential to all the work we are doing in such a sensitive bank and elsewhere in the Palestinian territories. part of the world, so the answer is an unequivocal yes.

Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): In UN Women Agency light of the Minister’s reply, does he share the concern expressed by Norwegian Foreign Minister Støre about the Israeli Foreign Minister’s comments, which appear 6. Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland to delegitimise the work of brave NGOs such as B’Tselem West) (Lab): What plans he has to provide support for and Physicians for Human Rights? It is important that the new UN Women agency; and if he will make a the voices of those organisations, which are Israeli statement. [40976] Jewish but express a different view from the Israeli Government, should continue to be heard. 9. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What plans he has to provide support for the new UN Women agency; Mr Duncan: I think that I can give the hon. Gentleman and if he will make a statement. [40979] the assurance that he seeks. We are watching closely the treatment of the five NGOs concerned and we will do The Secretary of State for International Development our utmost to ensure that they remain free to do their (Mr Andrew Mitchell): The coalition Government strongly good work, even though some of their conclusions support the new UN Women agency, which has the might disagree with the those of the Israeli Government. chance to make a hugely positive impact on the lives of millions of girls and women in the developing world. I Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Is the Minister aware look forward to receiving its strategic results plan, that an increasing amount of aid to the Palestinian which will allow us to decide on funding by the British territories ends up in the hands of extremists and is taxpayer for future years. 945 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 946

Mrs Hodgson: I thank the Secretary of State for that the troubles in that unfortunate country there is a very encouraging response, and for the part he and his real risk of food security problems or starvation in the colleagues have played in the establishment of UN years to come. What is the Department prepared to do Women so far. When does he anticipate he will come to about that? a decision on funding for UN Women? Mr Duncan: I urge my hon. Friend to appreciate the Mr Mitchell: We expect to see a strategic plan from distinction between a continuing bilateral programme UN Women probably in June this year, and as soon as and humanitarian aid, which can be given as needs we see it, we will be able to make decisions about British must. We will continue to review the humanitarian support for the agency. I am sure the hon. Lady and needs of Sri Lanka and work through multilateral other Members will understand that I want to see the organisations as required. plan first, before committing hard-earned British taxpayers’ money to it. Sub-Saharan Africa (Midwives)

Tony Baldry: From the experience of the many visits 8. Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North my right hon. Friend has made across the world, does Ipswich) (Con): What support his Department is he agree that very often it is women who are the agents providing for the training of midwives and maternal for change in development? Just as UNICEF has helped health specialists in sub-Saharan Africa. [40978] to support the focus on children, so it is to be hoped that UN Women can help support women as agents for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for change and development. International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): With more than half of maternal deaths globally occurring in Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We sub-Saharan Africa, DFID funds the training of midwives cannot even begin to address development without and other health care workers through various channels— realising the centrality of girls and women in every [Interruption.] aspect of what we do, and we share his aspirations for the role of UN Women within the international structures. Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for having to interrupt the Minister. Far too many private conversations are Sri Lanka taking place. It is the height of discourtesy for Members to witter away, including from the Government Back 7. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Benches, when the Minister is trying to be heard. What recent assessment he has made of the humanitarian situation in Sri Lanka; and if he will Mr O’Brien: I am grateful, Mr Speaker. make a statement. [40977] DFID bilateral programmes directly support national The Minister of State, Department for International health sector plans of partner countries and non- Development (Mr Alan Duncan): The number of internally government organisation-implemented projects, and give displaced people in camps in Sri Lanka has declined support through multilateral organisations such as the from 300,000 in 2009 to 18,000 today. DFID has provided World Bank and the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, £13.5 million in humanitarian assistance since 2008, but Tuberculosis and Malaria. our bilateral aid to Sri Lanka will cease in March, except for a new demining programme valued at £3 million. Dr Poulter: I am sure the Minister is aware of data collected for the World Health Organisation that show Mr Sharma: Among those affected by the floods are disparity between the provision of maternal health services many people who were earlier displaced by the conflict in more rural areas and in the slightly better-funded and who had recently returned to their homes only to be urban areas in many countries in Africa? Will he outline displaced again. Even before the floods, these people what the Department will do to help to address that had been struggling to access much-needed protection problem? and assistance because of Government restrictions on humanitarian organisations’ access to the return areas. Mr O’Brien: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for What pressure is the Minister putting on the Government pointing out that important disparity.The UK Government to allow humanitarian organisations to have access to recently announced the framework for results on the former conflict areas, so that the suffering people reproductive, maternal and neonatal health, which directly there can be given the full help they desperately need? seeks to address how that disparity can be narrowed. I have seen for myself in northern Nigeria how DFID Mr Duncan: We will continue to press the Sri Lankan supports midwifery services, with a scheme to train Government to grant access to such areas for humanitarian 200 midwives who are then posted to rural facilities, purposes. More than 1 million people have been affected which is vital to ensure that the disparity is addressed. by the flooding. We looked very closely into the sort of support we should give, but the most immediate needs Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I am proud to are covered by Sri Lankan authorities and other donors, support Save the Children’s “No child born to die” so we are working principally through multilateral campaign, which seeks to make more life-saving vaccines organisations to give the help that is needed. available to the world’s poorest and most vulnerable children. The Global Alliance for Vaccines and Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The United Immunisation summit is to take place in the UK later Nations estimates that some 90% of Sri Lanka’s rice this year, and Save the Children is lobbying for the crop will be destroyed by the recent flooding. That Prime Minister to represent the UK at that summit. makes the Government’s decision to stop all aid with What steps will the Minister to take to make sure that effect from March quite worrying, because on top of all the Government are represented at the highest level? 947 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 948

Mr O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman is right; the Save Aid Transfers the Children campaign is one that we follow closely. The GAVI conference will be hosted in London and we can 11. Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): confirm that it will have the full support of my right What progress his Department is making on hon. Friend the Prime Minister, to show our commitment. transferring aid from middle-income states to developing countries in greatest need. Official Development Assistance [40981]

10. Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven The Secretary of State for International Development and Lesmahagow) (Lab): When he expects to bring (Mr Andrew Mitchell): We have a clear responsibility to forward legislative proposals in respect of the 0.7 per ensure that we target our aid where it is most needed and where it will have the greatest impact. I will shortly cent. target for official development assistance. [40980] announce to the House the outcome of our major root The Secretary of State for International Development and branch review of bilateral aid, which looked in (Mr Andrew Mitchell): The coalition Government have detail at each country. set out how we will meet our commitment to spend Chris White: Although I strongly support the 0.7% of national income as aid from 2013, and will Government’s decision to stop aid to China, can my enshrine that commitment in law as soon as the right hon. Friend explain what impact that will have on parliamentary timetable allows. his ability to engage with China on development issues? Mr McCann: Some may be reassured by the Secretary Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is right to say that the of State’s answer and some may even be convinced by it, coalition made it clear on day one that we would end all but I can tell him about a group of people who are not: aid to China and Russia, but we need to have a powerful his own loyal staff at DFID in East Kilbride who in and reinvigorated partnership with China on development August 2010 were told that there would be no mass loss issues, not only in the areas where we share deep concerns, of jobs from the Department, but last Thursday were such as on freeing up the trading system and on climate, told that a third of their jobs would be cut. Is it not the but in working in third countries. For example, Britain case that when this Government meet commitments, is working with China now in the Democratic Republic the truth and their commitments are strangers? of the Congo on a major infrastructure roads programme. We are doing that work together and it is extremely Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that effective and successful. all Departments across Whitehall are having to make economies because of the coalition Government’s dreadful economic inheritance from his party. DFID is not immune PRIME MINISTER from the cuts and will see reductions of some 33% in its administrative spend. I had the opportunity of speaking to all the staff at Abercrombie house just a few days ago The Prime Minister was asked— to make sure that that was understood. Engagements

Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I applaud the Q1. [40932] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): If he will Government’s commitment to aid, but can the Secretary list his official engagements for Wednesday 16 February. of State confirm that climate change adaptation funding, beyond the fast-start finance up to 2012, will be additional The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure to the overseas development assistance pledge? the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the following servicemen who have lost their lives in Mr Mitchell: As part of the Government’s fulfilment Afghanistan: Private Lewis Hendry from 3rd Battalion of our historic pledge, we have set out specifically how the Parachute Regiment and Private Conrad Lewis climate change funding will rise as part of the overall from 4th Battalion the Parachute Regiment, who died budget. last Wednesday; and Lance Corporal Kyle Marshall from 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment, who died Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op): on Monday. They were all brave and dedicated soldiers Will the Secretary of State congratulate the Government who were serving in Afghanistan for the safety and of Kenya, the Global Alliance for Vaccines and security of the British people. Our thoughts and deepest Immunisation and all its funding partners, which include condolences should be with their families, their loved the United Kingdom, on the roll-out of their programme ones and their colleagues. They will never be forgotten. of pneumococcal vaccine on Monday? It will save thousands This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues of children in Kenya and across Africa. We hope that it and others, and in addition to my duties in the House, I will be a rolling programme across the developing world. shall have further such meetings later today.

Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right John Mann: Like other Members, I associate myself to underline the tremendous success of the vaccination and my constituents with the Prime Minister’s tribute to programme. When we announce the results of the our fallen heroes. multilateral aid review, we shall show how Britain will One man who also served his country is my constituent give a real impetus to vaccination. As the Under-Secretary Doug Hunt who, with his wife Gladys, lives in has just said, we shall host the GAVI conference in Westwood care home, which is currently being fattened London in June and it will be opened by the Prime for privatisation by increasing its fees by £400—not Minister. £400 a year, not £400 a month, but an increase of £400 a 949 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 950 week. Would the Prime Minister like to answer Mr and The right hon. Gentleman asked me what is happening Mrs Hunt, who are listening now, show some leadership in our economy. We are no longer linked with Greece and have these Tory cuts removed, or would he like to and Ireland and those countries in the danger zone. We justify these increases to Mr and Mrs Hunt? have a situation where market interest rates have fallen. Our credit rating is secured. There are 218,000 more The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at the individual people in work than there were a year ago. Above all, case that the hon. Gentleman raises, but far from cutting what I would say to him is what the Governor of the the money that is going into social care, we have increased Bank of England said this morning: by £2 billion the money going into adult social care “There has to be a plan A… This country needs fiscal consolidation because we know how important it is. It is not right to to deal with the biggest budget deficit in peacetime”. draw a false distinction between care homes run by local authorities and those run by the private sector. Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman says There is good practice and bad practice in both, but as that we are doing so well compared with the rest of we have seen in our hospitals in recent days, we need a Europe, but we were the only major European economy change of culture in caring for our elderly to make sure in the last quarter of 2010 that had no economic growth they have the dignity that they deserve in old age. and where growth went into reverse. Let me ask him specifically about youth unemployment. His own former chief economist said this morning that he thought that Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): My they were wrong to scrap the education maintenance six-year-old constituent, Millie d’Cruz, is one of just allowance, wrong to scrap the future jobs fund and that 17 people in the United Kingdom to be diagnosed with they should have been building on it. I know that he the rare genetic disorder, MLD—metachromatic likes to make an industry out of saying that the future leukodystrophy. Unfortunately, the family must try to jobs fund was the wrong thing to do, but what did he raise £200,000 to send her for treatment in Holland, say before the election? He went to Liverpool and said even though the treatment may be available here in the that it was “a good scheme” and that he had been UK. Can the Prime Minister look into the case and “inspired” by what he saw. Why does he not listen to ensure that the family get the support that they deserve? young people and their families up and down the country and take real action to help them? The Prime Minister: I am happy to do as my hon. Friend asks. A big change is taking place in medicine, The Prime Minister: First, the economist from the where far more interest needs to be directed at genetic Cabinet Office whom the right hon. Gentleman has just data and genetically inherited diseases, as this is how we quoted also said this: will reduce disease and illness in the future. We are “I would not excuse the previous Government on this; they looking, for instance, at value-based pricing, whereby failed to wake up to the problem early enough.” we try to share between companies developing new What matters is whether work programmes are effective. treatments and the taxpayer the cost of developing I now have the figures for the flexible new deal, which them, which could be a good way forward to make sure was the absolute centrepiece of the last Government’s we get more treatments to more people more quickly. approach to this matter. Let me give the House of Commons the figures, because I think that they show Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the what has been going wrong. Of the 279,000 people who Prime Minister in paying tribute to Private Lewis Hendry took part in the flexible new deal, how many got a from 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment, Private long-term job? The answer is 3,800. It is not good Conrad Lewis from 4th Battalion the Parachute Regiment, enough. What we have been doing on welfare, education and Lance Corporal Kyle Marshall from 2nd Battalion and back-to-work programmes is not good enough. All the Parachute Regiment. All these men showed those things need to change. extraordinary bravery and dedication. Our thoughts are with them and their families and friends as they grieve Edward Miliband: What we actually discovered today for them. is that the right hon. Gentleman’s great new Work programme, which he is trumpeting as the answer to all We now know that inflation is rising, growth has the nation’s problems, will have 250,000 fewer opportunities stalled and an extra 66,000 young people are out of than were provided under the last Labour Government. work. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether he thinks We know that his view of social mobility is auctioning his strategy is working? off a few City internships at the Conservative party ball, but frankly he is going to have to do better than The Prime Minister: Of course today’s unemployment that. The truth is that he is betraying a whole generation figures are a matter of great regret, particularly in terms of young people. He is trebling tuition fees, abolishing of higher youth unemployment, but I have to say to the the education maintenance allowance and abolishing right hon. Gentleman that youth unemployment has the future jobs fund. Why does he not change course been a problem in this country for well over a decade, in and help those young people who need help up and good years and in bad. The level of youth unemployment down this country? actually went up by 40% under the last Government—an extra 270,000 young people unemployed. What we have The Prime Minister: First, let me answer the right to do is sort out all the things that help young people get hon. Gentleman on the Work programme, because this back into work. There is a welfare system that does not is important. For the last 20 years, in this House and help you get work, an education system that does not elsewhere, people have been arguing that we should use prepare you for work and back-to-work programmes the savings from future benefits and invest them now in that, under the last Government, simply did not work. helping people to get a job, and for 20 years the Treasury 951 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 952 has said no, including the time when he and the right Q3. [40934] Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) were This weekend, hundreds of people will arrive in Ripon sitting in the Treasury advising. Now, for the first time, to celebrate winning the Government’s pilot for under this coalition Government, we will be spending super-fast broadband in North Yorkshire, and to work the future benefits in order to get people training and out how we can connect the rest of the county in the into work. That will include, in some cases, spending up years ahead. What message would my right hon. Friend to £14,000 to get people, particularly those on incapacity give to delegates about the Government’s commitment benefit, a job. to rural broadband? The figures the Leader of the Opposition gives are wrong. The Work programme is the biggest back-to-work The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely scheme this country has seen since the 1930s. Instead of right: we have made a big commitment to that, with being cash-limited and patchy, like his schemes, it has £530 million going into broadband investment, and that no limit and can help as many people as possible from is absolutely vital, particularly for rural parts of the all of those different categories. He mentions internships. country, because we do not want them to be cut off I did a little research into his: he did one for Tony Benn from the information superhighway. I hope my hon. and one for the deputy leader of the Labour party. No Friend will advise them about the opportunities of wonder he is so left-wing, so politically correct and so super-fast broadband—the business creation and job completely ineffective. creation that it can mean right across this country. Edward Miliband: Can the Prime Minister tell us Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con) rose— whether he is happy with his flagship policy on forestry?

Hon. Members: More! The Prime Minister: The short answer to that is no. As I have said before in this House, it is a consultation Mr Speaker: Order. I want, and the House wants, to that has been put forward, and we have had a range of hear Mr Nicholas Soames. interesting responses to it, but what is important is that we should be making sure that, whatever happens, we Nicholas Soames: Does my right hon. Friend the increase access to our forests, we increase biodiversity Prime Minister agree that deregulation is an extremely and we do not make the mistake that was made under powerful weapon in economic reform? Is he aware that the last Government, where they sold forests with no the programme is not proceeding fast enough, and will access rights at all. he take personal charge to see that the whole process is hurried up? Edward Miliband: Even the right hon. Gentleman must appreciate the irony: he, the guy who made the The Prime Minister: I completely agree with my hon. tree the symbol of the Conservative party, flogging Friend. One of the problems is the huge amount of them off up and down this country. He says that they regulations—particularly coming out of Europe—that are consulting on the policy; they are actually consulting we need to put a stop to before they are introduced. My on how to flog off the forests, not on whether to flog off right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is doing an the forests. Is the Prime Minister now saying that he excellent job with his one in, one out scheme, so that might drop the policy completely? another regulation cannot be introduced until one has been scrapped, but I think we probably have to go The Prime Minister: I would have thought that the further and faster and be more ambitious in scrapping whole point of a consultation is that you put forward the regulation that is holding back job creation in our some proposals, you listen to the answer and then you country. make a decision. I know it is a totally alien concept, but what is so complicated about that? Q2. [40933] Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): Can I invite the Prime Minister to look ahead to Edward Miliband: Everybody knows that the right the summer of 2012, when we will welcome millions of hon. Gentleman is going to have drop this ludicrous overseas visitors to this country? What does he think policy. Let me give him the chance to do so. Nobody will be the abiding images that they take home with voted for the policy; 500,000 people have signed a them? Will they be images of a brilliantly, successfully petition against it. When he gets up at the Dispatch staged Olympic games? Will it be a fond memory of the Box, why does he say not that he is postponing the sale, warm welcome to London extended by the newly but that he is cancelling it? elected Mayor Livingstone? Or will it be a memory of the shocking images of homeless people all over the The Prime Minister: I think, once again, that the right streets of London because of his Government’s hon. Gentleman wrote the questions before he listened economic failure and harsh housing benefit cuts? to the answers, and I think the bandwagon has just hit a bit of a tree. The Prime Minister: I notice that the right hon. Gentleman could not keep a straight face when backing Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): Labour’s candidate for Mayor, but I have to say that, if May I take this opportunity to inform my right hon. the Member who represents Greenwich cannot speak Friend and, indeed, the House that the Public up for the Olympics, there really is a problem. This is Administration Committee is today launching an inquiry going to be a great festival, and something that everyone into the big society? Does he share my hope that as we who comes to our country is going to enjoy—and I look consider things such as volunteering, promoting charitable forward to welcoming them alongside Mayor Boris giving and decentralising public services, we will receive Johnson. positive evidence from all parts of the House? 953 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 954

The Prime Minister: I do, and I am sure that, like Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): The Prime Minister everything that my hon. Friend does, it will be wholly has drawn comparisons between care homes and hospitals supportive of the Government’s position. He makes a when discussing changes to disability allowance, which very good point, which is that the big society is about are out for consultation until Friday. Yet for those who, more than just volunteering or support for charitable for reasons of disability, spend not just their latter years groups; it is about opening up public services, devolving but their whole lives in care homes, this comparison power to the lowest level, and giving people the opportunity simply is not valid. Will he ask his Ministers to look to play a greater part in the lives of their communities. I again at this? would have thought that people from across the House would recognise that the big state approach has failed The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good and that it is time for something different. point. This is exactly what we have been looking at. The whole intention of the change that was announced in Q4. [40935] Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Is the the Budget and the spending review was to make sure Prime Minister’s upheaval of the health service that there was not an overlap in the way that we were resulting in longer or shorter waiting times? judging people in care homes and people in hospitals. I think that when he sees what is proposed in the welfare The Prime Minister: We want to see waiting times Bill, he will see that it meets his concerns. come down; that is the whole point of the reforms. I think that anyone who has watched what has been Q6. [40937] Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East happening over the past few days, where we have seen Falkirk) (Lab): Sadly, since I first asked the Prime the standards of care that some elderly people— Minister about human trafficking in September, he has [Interruption.] Well, I think that the country is also collapsed every Government initiative on the issue, interested in the standards of care that old people are including the excellent POPPY project, which rescues getting in our hospitals. This idea that everything is women from prostitution. Tomorrow, when I meet my right and rosy in the health service after what happened colleagues from the Portuguese Parliament who are under the former Government opposite has just been signing up to the human trafficking directive, where shown to be completely untrue. Do we need to change will I tell them that our Prime Minister has lost his the system and make it more related to what GPs and moral compass on the issue of human trafficking? patients want? Yes, we absolutely do. The Prime Minister: What the hon. Gentleman says is completely wrong. The Government are supporting Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): organisations that are helping on the issue of human Will the Prime Minister join me in praising the work of trafficking. We are committed to ensuring that we have the Conservative administration in my constituency, the best and toughest laws on human trafficking. I which has saved £1 million a year by cutting senior know that he works on this issue, as does my hon. management and bureaucracy and protecting front-line Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), as services—measures unfortunately opposed by the local have Members in previous Parliaments. It is not necessary Labour group on the council? to opt in to the human trafficking directive to give ourselves the strongest laws here in the UK. It is that The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important that we should be doing, and that that I am committed point, which is that we have made available all this to making sure we are doing. information. Now, local councils have to set out their expenditure on every item over £500, so people can see Q7. [40938] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): how much money is being spent on salaries, how much Labour-led Kirklees council is still obsessed with is being spent on bureaucracy, and how much could be top-down housing targets, leaving my constituents put into voluntary sector and other organisations. We worried that the beautiful green fields of the Colne and have given local people the tools to hold their local Holme valleys will be bulldozed—quite a few trees politicians to account, and that is a thoroughly progressive could be chopped down too. Will the Prime Minister step. confirm that the Localism Bill will give my constituents a real say in what developments go on in their area? Q5. [40936] Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Can I first put on record my thanks to the Prime The Prime Minister: I can give that assurance, but I Minister for meeting a small delegation from my also make the point that under the top-down targets of constituency on the whole question of unemployment the Labour party, house building in this country fell to in the Ayrshire area? Does he really think, however, its lowest level since 1923. The top-down, big-state that being part of the big society that he talks about solutions did not work. Through the new homes bonus means throwing youngsters on to the streets of the UK and by rewarding local authorities that build houses, we as a result of the cuts in housing benefit? are benefitting local communities that opt to have more homes and businesses, because that is part of the economic The Prime Minister: What we are doing in terms of development that we badly need. housing benefit is what was set out in the manifesto that the hon. Gentleman stood on, which is to say that we Q8. [40939] Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): should not be subsidising housing benefit for people to The overwhelming majority of my constituents believe live in houses that taxpayers themselves cannot afford. that the cuts to local government spending are not only That is the principle behind the welfare Bill, which will too fast and too deep, but cruel and politically be coming before this House shortly, and I look forward motivated. Will the Prime Minister tell the House why to it getting wide-ranging support. my constituents are wrong? 955 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 956

The Prime Minister: I tell the hon. Gentleman directly those on the Opposition Benches. What will my right that I think the cuts being made by Manchester city hon. Friend say to encourage better risk assessment to council are politically driven and too deep. Manchester avoid such unintended consequences? city council is having its grant cut by 15%—less than my council, for instance, which is being cut by 23%—and The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important yet it is cutting services by 25%. I notice that it still has point, which is that because of how this issue has been £100 million in bank balances, and that its chief executive handled, many people who face lower insurance premiums is paid more than £200,000 a year. I think that people in because of their risk profiles will have to pay more. I am Manchester will look at their council and say, “Cut out afraid that it falls to me to speak an eternal truth to the the waste, cut out the bureaucracy, start to cut the chief House of Commons: on the whole, women have better executive’s salary, and only then should you look at safety driving records than men, but as a result of that services.” judgment, they will not benefit from lower insurance payments. What that says to me is that we have to work Q9. [40940] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): After votes much better at risk-assessing and then stopping so for prisoners, we now have the potential for human much of the damaging regulation coming out of Brussels. rights legislation to give sex offenders the opportunity to come off the sex offenders register. Is the Prime Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The importance Minister aware that my constituents are sick to the of internships in helping young people to get on in life back teeth of the human rights of criminals and has been much in the news lately. Will the Prime Minister prisoners being put before the rights of law-abiding therefore take this opportunity to express his support citizens in this country? Is it not time that we scrapped for the Speaker’s new parliamentary placements scheme? the Human Rights Act and, if necessary, withdrew It is a cross-party initiative backed by the hon. Members from the European convention on human rights? for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) and for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) that will give The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks for many people from working-class backgrounds the chance to people in saying how completely offensive it is, once come to Parliament, get vital experience of political life again, to have a ruling by a court that flies in the face of and be paid a living wage; and—who knows?—they common sense. Requiring serious sexual offenders to may well be the politicians of the future. sign the register for life, as they now do, has broad support across this House and across the country. I am appalled by the Supreme Court ruling. We will take the The Prime Minister: I fully support what the right minimum possible approach to this ruling and use the hon. Lady says. This is a very important scheme. As opportunity to close some loopholes in the sex offenders shadow Cabinet members in opposition we worked register. For instance, we will make it compulsory for with the Social Mobility Foundation to give internships, sex offenders to report to the authorities before any and we will be doing it again as Cabinet members. It is a travel and will not allow them to change their name by very important initiative and I very much welcome what deed poll to avoid having their name on the register. I the Speaker is doing. can also tell my hon. Friend that a commission will be established imminently to look at a British Bill of Rights, Q12. [40943] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What because it is about time we ensured that decisions are investigation has the Prime Minister made into the made in this Parliament rather than in the courts. allegation that the IMF was bullied into toning down its assessment of the dangers facing the UK economy? Q10. [40941] Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Given the difference in tone between “Drink Responsibly” and The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly “Smoking Kills”, what action will the Prime Minister important point, which is that the IMF was reporting take in response to the heartfelt pleas of my constituent on the state of the British economy, and was arguing Rachel Jones, who wants to see much harder-hitting that we did have a structural deficit and that it was a labels on alcoholic drinks following the tragic death of problem. However, Labour attempted to gag the IMF her boyfriend, Stuart Cable, the former Stereophonics when it was in power, because the previous Government drummer? did not want to own up to the mess that they had got this country into. Even now, the Opposition are still The Prime Minister: I think we should be looking at denying the fact that they left us with a dangerous fiscal what action we can take through the tax system to deal deficit that is the cause of many of the problems that we with problem drinks, which we are looking at, and at face today. tougher minimum pricing for alcohol. That is where we should be putting our attention, rather than necessarily Q13. [40944] Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The looking at labelling. Many of the problems that we Prime Minister will be aware of people’s concerns have, such as people—particularly young people—pre- about the coastguard. This week a cross-party loading before they go for a night out, are related to deputation from Northern Ireland consisting of four deeply discounted drinks in supermarkets and elsewhere. MPs from this House met coastguard officials. Is the That is what we should deal with first. Prime Minister aware that the figures from Bangor coastguard station show 654 responses over this past Q11. [40942] Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): year? Does he think that one station could Thousands of younger women drivers in the UK face satisfactorily handle almost 10 times the current the prospect of massive hikes in their motor insurance number of calls, should Bangor coastguard station be premiums as the result of a perverse reinterpretation of closed or the service be reduced from 19 coastguard the EU gender equality directive, carried forward by stations UK-wide to an inadequate two stations? 957 Oral Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Oral Answers 958

The Prime Minister: I am very aware of this issue, and 10 years, of re-linking the state pension with earnings. I know that the hon. Gentleman will be speaking to the That is an absolutely vital step in giving people the Secretary of State for Transport about it. The point is dignity and security that they deserve in old age. this: the coastguard agency has to prove in the consultation that it wants to co-ordinate the number of offices that Q15. [40946] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): receive calls, in order to put more money and resources The Government are planning to ask the House to into the front-line service—the number of boats, rescue extend the control orders regime until it is replaced by facilities and helpers. That is the aim of the policy, but I terrorism prevention and investigation measures. I am fully accept that that has to be proved to people in order sure that the Prime Minister would not want the House to go ahead with the proposals being made. to act without having all the necessary information, so will he assure all hon. Members that we will have sight Q14. [40945] Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) of the TPIMs legislation before being asked to vote on (Con): At my surgery on Saturday, a constituent the extension? explained to me that, with an ill husband and a young family, she had been told that she would be better off The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important giving up her part-time job and relying on benefits. point. Obviously, this is a very big change that we are Will the Prime Minister assure this House that we will making from control orders to the new system, and I give people the incentive and the support to go into am sure that the House will be consulted properly, and work and end the culture of welfare dependency left by that proper prior sight of what is being proposed will be the Opposition? made. But he can get involved right now if he wants to, as the policy is being developed. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks about this issue in an absolutely correct way. The fact is that Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland for too long we have had a welfare system that pays West) (Lab): Mr Speaker, in 2008, your review into people—it gives them an incentive—not to go out and communication needs described speech therapy services work. The universal credit, which will be introduced as a “postcode lottery”, and, sadly, in 2010, a national through the welfare Bill, will mean that in every case, no survey of primary special educational needs co-ordinators matter how few hours someone works, they will always showed that 57% had never heard of the Bercow review, be better off in work and working more. That is absolutely and that services remain as inequitable now as they right and long overdue, and I hope that it will have were then. In the national year of communication, and support from right across the House of Commons. with “The King’s Speech” having done so much to raise awareness of this issue, will the Prime Minister clarify whether the Government are planning to implement the Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): In a week in recommendations of your review, and how they are which we have had revelations about the appalling level planning to do that when local authorities are facing of health care for our pensioners, what is the Prime such huge cuts? Minister saying to the elderly population of this country by proposing to change the inflation link for the uprating The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady will shortly see of benefits and pensions from the retail prices index to the Green Paper on special educational needs, in which the consumer prices index, which will cost present and we are giving priority to this area because, as I know future pensioners millions of pounds in lost income? from my own experience, getting hold of a speech and How is that fair? How does it protect the vulnerable? language therapist is often extremely difficult. Of course, as in every other area, there will be constraints in terms The Prime Minister: The first point that I would of resources, but I think we can do better by having a make is that the state pension, under the triple lock, will less confrontational system and making sure that more be linked with whichever is highest, but we are also resources actually get to the parents who need them and taking the step, which the last Government did not for who want to do the right thing for their children. 959 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Sex Offenders Register 960

Sex Offenders Register Finally, I can tell the House that the Deputy Prime Minister and the Justice Secretary will shortly announce the establishment of a commission to investigate the 12.31 pm creation of a British Bill of rights. It is time to assert The Secretary of State for the Home Department that it is Parliament that makes our laws, not the courts; (Mrs Theresa May): The sex offenders register has that the rights of the public come before the rights of existed since 1997. Since that time, it has helped the criminals; and, above all, that we have a legal framework police to protect the public from those most horrific of that brings sanity to cases such as these. crimes. Requiring serious sexual offenders to sign the I commend my statement to the House. register for life, as they do now, has broad support across the House, but the Supreme Court ruled last Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) April that not granting sex offenders the opportunity to (Lab): This is an important matter involving some of seek a review was a breach of their human rights—in the most serious crimes in society. I thank the Home particular, the right to a private or family life. Those are Secretary for supplying me with the statement within rights, of course, that those offenders have taken away the last half hour, but I must say that it is worrying that from their victims in the cruellest and most degrading the Home Office has again allowed information to be manner possible. given to the media before it has been given to the House. The Government are disappointed and appalled by The depravity and seriousness of sex offences, and that ruling. It places the rights of sex offenders above the harm and damage that they do to victims, mean that the right of the public to be protected from the risk of the systems that we operate to protect the public must their reoffending, but there is no possibility of further be paramount. We have an obligation to ensure that appeal. The Government are determined to do everything vulnerable children and other victims can be protected we can to protect the public from predatory sexual from such terrible crimes. As the Home Secretary knows, offenders, so we will make the minimum possible changes that is why the sex offenders register was established in to the law in order to comply with the ruling. I want to the first place. The law rightly requires people who have make it clear that the Court’s ruling does not mean that been convicted of such serious crimes to meet further paedophiles and rapists will automatically come off the registration requirements once their sentences have been sex offenders register. The Court found only that they served, in the interests of public protection and to must be given the right to seek a review. prevent further terrible crimes from taking place. The Scottish Government have already implemented The priority now must still be public safety, and the a scheme to give offenders an automatic right of appeal protection of our young and vulnerable people. Those for removal from the register after 15 years. We will victims of crime have suffered and continue to suffer implement a much tougher scheme. Offenders will be greatly because of the actions of sex offenders. We able to apply for consideration of removal only after know, too, that many such offenders can still pose a waiting 15 years following release from custody. In serious threat to the public. The court judgment to England and Wales, there will be no automatic appeals. which the Home Secretary has responded today itself We will deliberately set the bar for those reviews as high quotes the research finding that just over a quarter of as possible. Public protection must come first. A robust those imprisoned for such offences did reoffend. Those review, led by the police and involving all the relevant offences included some that were very serious, a large agencies, will be carried out so that a full picture of the number of which were committed many years later. risks to the public can be considered. Does the Home Secretary agree that, while of course The final decision on whether an offender should proper and fair processes must always be followed for remain on the register will be down to the police, and individuals through the courts, the protection of families not, as in Scotland, the courts. The police are best and communities up and down the country is paramount? placed to assess the risk of an offender committing She has said that the new system will be tough. Let me another crime, and they will rightly put the public first. say to her that it is vital to the safety and protection of There will be no right of appeal against the police’s children in particular, but also to that of other victims, decision to keep an offender on the register. That decision that the new system is extremely tough if it is to have the will be final. Sex offenders who continue to pose a risk support of the House. will remain on the register, and will do so for life if The Home Secretary said that Parliament should necessary. decide the level of protection that is needed, and that When we are free to take further action to protect the Parliament should set the laws. However, she has given public, we will do so. We will shortly launch a targeted Parliament very little information today about the way consultation aimed at closing four existing loopholes in in which the new system will operate. Will the new the sex offenders register. We will make it compulsory framework be enshrined in legislation? Will Parliament for sex offenders to report to the authorities before have an opportunity to debate the details? The Home travelling abroad for even one day. That will prevent Secretary will know that many Members of Parliament them from being free to travel for up to three days, as and members of the public will be very concerned about they are under the existing scheme. We will force sex the possibility that any new framework might enable offenders to notify the authorities whenever they are serious offenders to manipulate the system. It is essential living in a household containing a child under the age of that that is not allowed to happen, but it is also important 18. We will require sex offenders to notify the authorities for Parliament to have an opportunity to debate it to weekly of where they can be found when they have no ensure that it does not happen. fixed abode. We will tighten the rules so that sex offenders Will the Home Secretary ensure that the focus is on can no longer avoid being on the register when they public protection, rather than on the convenience or change their names by deed poll. rights of those who have been convicted of serious 961 Sex Offenders Register16 FEBRUARY 2011 Sex Offenders Register 962

[Yvette Cooper] minimal way to put this judgment into effect, but at ways to toughen up the sex offenders register regime—for crimes? Will she tell us how many offenders will be example, by the requirement that we want to introduce affected? Will she tell us what the level of the police for individuals on the register to have to notify when assessment will be, and what standards the police will they are going abroad for at least a day. That is a seek to meet as part of their review? toughening of the current system. Will the police be given additional resources to do The right hon. Lady asked about Parliament’s this? She will know that there is concern in the House opportunity to debate this measure. It will be introduced about the police’s resources and about whether they are through an order—a statutory instrument—so there stretched already as a result of the cuts the Government will be an opportunity to debate it. She asked about the are making. Will she say what additional resources the numbers who will be affected. That will be set out in the police will have, what additional resources they will regulatory impact assessment that will accompany the require and the number of people on whom they will be statutory instrument. She asked about the process of expected to carry out reviews as a result of the changes consideration that the police will go through. They will she is proposing? She will know that some police forces be talking to all other agencies that have an interest in have already expressed concern that as a result of the this area, so they will talk to the probation service, local 20% cuts they are facing, their need to respond and authorities, social services, youth offending teams and a their need to try to keep as many people in neighbourhood variety of other agencies to ensure that they have the policing as possible, many specialist units within police best possible picture of the individual concerned in forces are coming under the greatest pressure as a result order to make the best possible judgment. I am sure of the decisions she has made. What reassurance can that she will agree that the police are very clear about she give the House and the public that there will be no the importance of public protection. That is why I want increased risk to the public as a result of these changes the police to make these decisions; I believe that they and of pressure on the police? will put public protection first. They will examine a I welcome the Home Secretary’s proposal to consider series of issues, such as the seriousness of the offences other tighter measures on sex offenders, but does that originally committed and the age of the victims. They have any implications for the changes that she appears will address a range of issues when they are considering to be making in the opposite direction to the vetting whether a review should be upheld and whether the and barring provisions? She has also raised, as part of individual should stay on the register. her statement, discussion of a Bill of rights. We would The right hon. Lady asked about the ability of the welcome a debate about that, although wider issues police to deal with this. ACPO and the National Offender associated with written constitutions can also be debated. Management Service have been actively involved in However, I am concerned at the form that this putting together and shaping the policy. One of their announcement has taken, because it is, in itself, a major considerations has, of course, been its deliverability. We announcement and the House should have an opportunity are confident that the policy can be delivered, as is to have that debate and raise questions. ACPO. Like us, ACPO wants to ensure that we have the In conclusion, the Home Secretary will know that the toughest possible policy to protect the public. It is public would be horrified if the rights, or even the different from the vetting and barring scheme, where convenience, of people who have been convicted of very the problem was that lots of innocent people found serious crimes were to be put above the right to safety themselves on it and were subject to its requirements. and family life of the public and of vulnerable people This proposal is about the people who have been found and vulnerable victims. She will know that Labour guilty of heinous crimes and is about making sure that Members will not support any changes that will do that, we reduce the risk of reoffending to members of the and I hope that she intends not to do that. I look public. As I have announced in relation to the Bill of forward to her answers to the questions. rights, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Justice Secretary will make further announcements about that imminently. Mrs May: I can say categorically to the right hon. Lady that it is indeed the Government’s intention to put Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): the protection of the public first. Had she listened to my May I astonish my right hon. Friend by saying that I statement or read it beforehand, she would have noted think there is some merit in the Court’s decision, particularly that it says that in a number of places. We are appalled in the way she has interpreted it? Does not this case by the Court’s decision. I would far rather not have to illustrate the fact that rights are not absolute and that stand here saying that we have to make a change to the the rights of the victim have to be balanced against the sex offenders register, but we do have to make a change. rights of children and the public in general? The process We will do so in the most minimal way possible to of reconciliation is ultimately as much political as legal ensure that we do put public protection first, and that and Parliament should therefore always have the last we give the police and others the ability to ensure that word. Is it not a relief that this decision was taken by the public are protected from such serious and appalling the Supreme Court and not by the Court in Strasbourg? crimes as have been committed by individuals on this Does she agree that we should resile from that as soon register. as possible? The right hon. Lady asked quite a number of questions. She asked whether we are making the protection of Mrs May: My right hon. Friend tempts me down a families paramount, and I have said that we are. She route that it would not be appropriate to go down. On said that the system should be extremely tough and, yes, his first point, rights are not absolute. The article 8 right our intention is that it will be as tough as possible. That against which the judgment was made clearly is not an is why we have looked not only at what we can do in the absolute right. I am sure that many right hon. and hon. 963 Sex Offenders Register16 FEBRUARY 2011 Sex Offenders Register 964

Members—indeed, all of them, I hope—are as concerned Mrs May: I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, as I am when a court makes a judgment that puts the and it is absolutely our intention that we should make rights of a perpetrator above the rights of the public the scheme as tough as possible and make it clear that it and individual victims. In a similar area, I find it is about an ability to seek a review of a decision. We will incredible that we are not able to deport people who are frame it in the toughest possible terms and ensure that linked to al-Qaeda and who have terrorist intent in this the process is absolutely right, so that we reduce the country because the court says that their rights mean opportunity for it to be subject to any sort of judicial that we cannot deport them, but the court is not looking review once the decision is taken. at the rights of members of the British public. That is what we should be doing. Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): I support and welcome the Home Secretary’s statement, but may I ask Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I support the for a little more clarity? She said that the final decision Home Secretary’s views on the merits of the existing sex on whether an offender should remain on the register offenders register and her concern about the Court’s would be one for the police. Will that be a matter for the decision, but will she confirm that under section 4 of chief constable, as at present, or will it be one for the the Human Rights Act 1998 there is absolutely no police commissioner in future? obligation on her or the House to change the law one bit? All the Court did was to issue a declaration of Mrs May: It will be for a senior police officer, who incompatibility and section 4 makes it absolutely clear will be a chief constable or another senior police officer. that any decision following that is a matter for the It will not be a matter for the police and crime commissioner. sovereign Parliament. It would be entirely lawful for the House and her to say that the existing regime will Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): In the unfortunate continue without any amendment. event of somebody being released from the sex offenders register because of this judgment, does the Secretary of Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman makes a point State agree that it is imperative that the victim of the about the application of the Human Rights Act and the crime be informed of that variation? European convention on human rights and about Parliament having the final decision about what should Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting happen. In this case, Parliament will have the final point, and I am certainly willing to take it away and decision on what happens. consider it. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I welcome Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Does the Home Secretary’s approach to this as being purely a the Home Secretary agree that the right to respect for police matter. There has been a common misapprehension private life must not trump the safety of our children? that requirements to sign on the sex register are somehow Given the impossibility of tackling some offending court orders. They are not. They are not part of the behaviour of a sexual nature, even if reviews of notification sentence or the judicial process, and I therefore welcome requirements are granted, presumably she expects that the commitment to keep the matter firmly within the those reviews will insist that the notification requirements realms of police discretion. are maintained. Is it also her understanding that the police decision could be subject to judicial review? Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend, who brings his experience in the law to that point. It is absolutely right Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments that the police will deal with the matter and make the about the balance of rights. It is the case, I believe, that decision. the police decision could be subject to judicial review. It is absolutely right that the police will look at all aspects Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I, of cases and take every consideration into account too, welcome the rigorous approach that the Home when deciding whether a review should be upheld such Secretary is taking, and I say that as the Minister who that the individual no longer remains on the register. I took the Sexual Offences Act 2003 through Committee. cannot second-guess any decisions that the police will Does she agree that given the highly secretive and take, but they will be making every effort to ensure that manipulative behaviour of many sex offenders, it is they are, absolutely, looking properly at these cases to highly unlikely that the offence of which they were ensure that the decisions they take enable them to convicted is the only crime that they have committed? maintain public protection. Will she ensure in any review process that there is a clear onus on the offender to demonstrate beyond doubt that Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Home Secretary they are no longer a risk to the public? has struck exactly the right tone today, and it is heartening to hear both Front Benchers being very clear about Mrs May: I have a number of points to make to the where they stand on this issue. Protection of the public right hon. Gentleman. Throughout the House, we all is the most important consideration, but, in view of agree that Parliament needs to get the answer right for what the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington the sake of public protection. The police will be able to (Tom Brake) has just said, will the Government ensure take other offences into account when they consider that the appeal process is examined very carefully indeed whether an individual should remain on the sex offenders so that it is as robust as possible and there is not a legal register, and they will look as widely as possible at the challenge? That will mean proper consultation with behaviour of the individual in question, consulting as Parliament and a proper scheme, so that people are well wide a number of agencies as possible to ensure that aware that it is very tough indeed. they make the best possible decision for the public. 965 Sex Offenders Register16 FEBRUARY 2011 Sex Offenders Register 966

Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I welcome the about potential inconsistency of approach between different Home Secretary’s desire to tighten the loopholes in the police forces. Highly manipulative people moving around sex offenders register, and particularly her proposal to the country may find themselves on the sex offenders prevent sex offenders from avoiding registering by changing register in one part of the country, but a decision may their name by deed poll. I am sure she will be aware that be made to take them off it in another part. How will deed poll is only one way in which a person can change she ensure that consistency is applied to the whole their name. It is the most formal way, but not the most country? usual. Changing name by statutory declaration is quicker and easier. Perhaps she will consider that as another Mrs May: My hon. Friend obviously makes an important loophole that should be closed. point, but of course ACPO has been actively involved in putting the proposals together, as I said earlier, and it Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that will be for ACPO to ensure that its guidance to forces point. It is important that we examine the process of across the country is appropriately strong and followed changing a name by deed poll and tighten the rules so by all forces. that sex offenders cannot use them as a means of avoiding the need to register. He makes a valid point Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): My constituent, about statutory declaration, and we will certainly take it 17-year-old Ashleigh Hall, was murdered having been into consideration. groomed by a registered sex offender on Facebook. When the Home Secretary is examining the loopholes, Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): The Home Secretary will she ensure that all sex offenders are required to has said that the police decision on these matters will be register their online identities as well, and that any final. I hope she agrees that if one offender gets off the failure to do so is seen just as seriously as if they had sex offenders register, it is one too many. Will the victim failed to register the fact that they were living with be able to appeal against that decision by the police and young children? try to overturn it? Mrs May: The hon. Lady raises a valid issue about Mrs May: No, there will be no appeal mechanism. the use of new technology and the internet by sex offenders. If she would like to write to me about it, I will Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): I welcome be happy to look into it. the Home Secretary’s statement, the key phrase in which was that public protection must come first. We may Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): My constituents will compare that with judges who have instead ruled that welcome the taking-on of the Human Rights Act and paedophiles’ and rapists’ rights to privacy must come its replacement with a Bill of Rights, particularly as it first. What would she say to those out-of-touch judges was a manifesto commitment. Will my right hon. Friend in the Supreme Court who are now openly, proudly and reassure my constituents and the public that sex offenders provocatively saying that a paedophile’s right to privacy who have a right of appeal will not be removed from the is more important than children’s protection from those register if they continue to pose a threat to the public? who have committed evil sexual acts? Mrs May: The whole point of the review process is Mrs May: It is important that we balance the public’s that it will be down to the police to assess whether there right to protection against the rights of the individual, is a risk of reoffending. If there is considered to be a but as I said at the end of my statement, it is time that risk, the individuals in question will stay on the register. we asserted that it is Parliament that makes our laws. Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I thank the Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I Home Secretary for her statement. She highlighted in it congratulate the Home Secretary on adopting a much the difference in the approaches in Scotland and here at tougher approach than the Scottish authorities. Does Westminster. Will she reassure us that differences between she have any regrets that she did not overrule her different devolved Administrations will not lead to people officials and similarly reject the much weaker Scottish being able to be removed from the sex offenders register model for the retention of DNA profiles? because of different thresholds being applied in different locations? Mrs May: We have not in fact absolutely adopted the Scottish model in relation to DNA, and we have gone Mrs May: I reassure the hon. Lady that we will talk further than it. We have adopted protections for those to the devolved Administrations. What I have announced who are innocent, and that is different from the situation will cover England and Wales, but we will talk to that we are considering today, which is about people Scotland and Northern Ireland about the approach that who have been found guilty and are at risk of reoffending. we are adopting to ensure as far as we can that sex We must deal with public protection in that regard. The offenders do not move from one jurisdiction to another rules that we propose for the retention of DNA are to get around the rules. about enabling the police to have the tools that they need, but at the same time not putting the DNA of a lot Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I thank the of innocent people on the database. Home Secretary not only for the content of her statement, but for the fact that she has come to the House so Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I, like many quickly and that the statement was not leaked in advance. others, am appalled by the Court’s decision, but I Yesterday, when the Justice Secretary was questioned welcome the Home Secretary’s statement, particularly on the establishment of a commission on the Bill of the part about tightening the rules. One concern will be Rights, he said that it would be done very quickly. 967 Sex Offenders Register16 FEBRUARY 2011 Sex Offenders Register 968

Unfortunately, he was unable to answer my question on will have all the information on an offender that is when that commission will report. Until we have a available in a Parole Board hearing, from judges’ sentencing British Bill of Rights, I am afraid that the Home remarks on dangerousness, to pre-sentence reports and Secretary will be coming to the Dispatch Box to make the offender’s full record in custody, so that they can more such statements. make a thorough decision, so that the public are fully protected? Mrs May: I am tempted to point out to my hon. Friend that the statement may not have been leaked, but Mrs May: That is absolutely our intention. The police the Prime Minister covered one or two aspects of it in should have the fullest information possible on which to Prime Minister’s questions. base their decision on whether a sex offender should On the Bill of Rights, the Deputy Prime Minister and stay on the register. Indeed, I expect that when we lay Justice Secretary will imminently set out the arrangements the statutory instrument before the House, we will be for that commission and say how it will be formed, able to go into more detail on the sort of information which I expect will include an end date. that will be available to the police. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): My right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I assure Castleford (Yvette Cooper) asked about funding for the Home Secretary that my hon. and right hon. Friends specialist units, many of which were formed because of wholeheartedly agree with her statement. It is time to a failure in normal policing to find people on the assert that Parliament makes the laws, not the courts. It register, and because police forces did not talk to each is our duty as a House to protect the general public other. What guarantees can the Home Secretary give on from those who perpetrate such horrific crimes. If it is funding for such specialist units? the will of the House to strengthen our laws, instead of weakening them in the light of the Court’s decision, we Mrs May: Of course, how a police budget is distributed should assert the authority of the House. to the different departments of each police force is a When will consultation be held with the Northern matter for the chief constable. The hon. Gentleman will Ireland Executive? know what I am about to say because the Government have made this clear a number of times. Police forces can take a significant sum of money out of their budgets Mrs May: We will have discussions with the Northern not by cutting specialist units and visible policing, but Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Government shortly—we by dealing with procurement and IT, and through have held some discussions with the latter because they collaboration with other forces. It is not just me saying have taken some steps down this road already. These that; Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary says it issues will come to Parliament for it to decide. The too. commission on the British Bill of Rights, which was announced today, is a step that the Government are Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I welcome the Home taking to ensure that we bolster the ability of Parliament Secretary’s commitment to close the loophole that allows to set our laws. The previous Government introduced sex offenders to go abroad for up to three days without the Human Rights Act. I am afraid that they saw the notifying the police. The previous Government had problems that the Act created and did nothing—this since 1997 to close that loophole, but did not take such Government are doing something about it. action. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I welcome the Mrs May: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making Home Secretary’s statement, but how confident is she that point. I am just pleased that we could take that that the increasingly robust Supreme Court, and the action today to ensure that we closed that loophole and European Courts with their extraterritorial reach, will the others that I mentioned in my statement. not overrule her very firm and welcome announcement today? Is it not time to introduce a Bill of Rights very Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Home Secretary early indeed, rather than having a commission which has been absolutely right in setting her face against the may report sometime in the future— judgment, but will she confirm that it remains lawful to insist that sex offenders stay on the register for life? Although the measures she has announced are strong Mr Speaker: I call the Home Secretary. and seek to protect the public, she does not have to take them—it would be lawful for her to keep to the higher Mrs May: I see what my hon. Friend is getting at, but standard of keeping them on the register for life. it is right to have a commission to look into the British Bill of Rights. The purpose of my statement was to set Mrs May: We have already had one challenge on this out a way forward that meets the requirement set by the ruled on by the Supreme Court, and there is the prospect Supreme Court, which should therefore not be subject of others. We have no further right of appeal through to a further ruling by that Court. the Supreme Court mechanism, so we are introducing what we believe to be a tough set of measures that will Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): Will the victims address the issue. Of course, it will continue to be be not only told of the outcome of the decision, but possible for sex offenders to stay on the register for life. consulted before the decision is made? Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. I have appeared Mrs May: As I said in response to the right hon. in Parole Board hearings. Can the Secretary of State Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), we will consider what confirm that the police officers who will make decisions information is available to the victim and their role. 969 Sex Offenders Register 16 FEBRUARY 2011 970

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Residents in Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill my constituency are absolutely fed up to the back teeth Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order with human rights legislation and the way in which it is No. 23) being used to promote the rights of bad people over the rights of good people. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said that when the commission on the Bill of 1.8 pm Rights is established, an end date will be published. May I urge her to urge the Deputy Prime Minister and Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I beg the Justice Secretary to choose an early end date, which to move, we need so that legislation can be introduced in the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision House in this Parliament, so that the issue can be requiring certain prisoners due to be considered for early release to complete a relevant offender management programme, where resolved once and for all? available; to require courts to take regard of mental health problems in sentencing; to make provision regarding minimum Mrs May: Most Members of the House are fed up and maximum sentences; and for connected purposes. with the way in which decisions by the House are There are currently too many anomalies in sentencing. increasingly being overturned by the courts. I can reassure People are given sentences that are not always appropriate my hon. Friend that the Deputy Prime Minister and the to the crime they have committed, and sentences do not Justice Secretary know well of his interest in this matter. subsequently have regard to the progress that people As I said, we will ensure that we can take action to make during their time in prison. The Bill would introduce assert the rights of Parliament. new clauses to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 to address some of those anomalies, to ensure that courts have BILL PRESENTED greater freedom to impose the sentence that they deem necessary, and to ensure that there is greater incentive WELFARE REFORM BILL for prisoners to partake of rehabilitation programmes Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) so as to be considered for early release. Mr Secretary Duncan Smith, supported by the Prime I therefore propose to add three new measures to the Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of aforementioned Act. First, I would add new clauses to the Exchequer, Mrs Secretary May, Mr Secretary Clarke, warrant that early release from both indeterminate public Mr Secretary Lansley, Mr Secretary Pickles, Chris Grayling protection sentences and determinate sentences is incentive- and Maria Miller, presented a Bill to make provision for based, not automatic. Secondly, I would add new clauses universal credit and personal independence payment; to on maximum and minimum sentences. Thirdly, I would make other provision about social security and tax ensure that courts are given the right to have regard to credits; to make provision about the functions of the mental health problems when sentencing convicted persons. registration service, child support maintenance and the I shall speak first on the new conditions to be imposed use of jobcentres; and for connected purposes. on granting early release. Indeterminate public protection Bill read the First Time; to be read a Second time sentences have been a controversial measure since their tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 149) with explanatory inception. Under section 225 of the Criminal Justice notes (Bill 149-EN). Act 2003, where a person aged 18 or over is imprisoned for public protection but the court does not consider life imprisonment necessary, the convicted person may be imprisoned for a period of at least two years but less than life. The court sets a minimum period or tariff to be served before a prisoner can apply for parole. The measure was intended to be used sparingly but, presumably due to the inflexible requirements laid down by the Government, IPP sentences are being used more frequently than expected. I believe that not enough thought is put into determining a prisoner’s tariff and that because little focus is placed on putting these prisoners into rehabilitation programmes, there are thousands of prisoners on IPP sentences in our prisons who in many cases will be released without regard being given to the remorse shown or even to a prisoner’s rehabilitation. Because of amendments made to the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 by schedule 8 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, a person serving a sentence of imprisonment or detention for a term can be considered for early release after serving one half of that sentence. I believe that that needs to be put right. My Bill will add a new clause to section 255 of the 2003 Act to the effect that a person serving an IPP sentence shall have that sentence reviewed by the Parole Board at least every two years. Furthermore, all persons serving IPP sentences must have access made available to relevant offender management programmes. When determining whether to recommend a person for release 971 Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill16 FEBRUARY 2011 Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 972 on licence, the Parole Board should have regard to the final new clause of my Bill, added to the Criminal availability and completion of these programmes. It is Justice Act 2003, would mean that the courts could pay cost-effective to do this. greater regard to psychological or psychiatric problems On a daily basis, 5,659 people are serving an IPP diagnosed in a person who has committed a violent or sentence, of which 2,229 are beyond their tariff. On sexual offence. Under section 277, persons of 18 years average, these prisoners are serving 244 days beyond or older who commit certain violent or sexual offences their tariff. It costs roughly £30,000 to keep someone are given an extended sentence. However, in cases where incarcerated for 244 days. If we multiply this sum by a person has committed a serious crime and has 2,229, we get a figure of £68 million. By comparison, subsequently been diagnosed—I stress subsequently the cost of putting a prisoner through a rehabilitation diagnosed—with psychological or psychiatric problems, programme would be £5,000 at most, which, multiplied it is the feeling of many sentencers that an extended by 2,229, comes to £11 million as opposed to the period of licence would be more appropriate both for currently spent £68 million. Introducing this measure the individual concerned and for the protection of the would thus be cost-effective and, I believe, beneficial to public. In many such cases, the disposal of a hospital the protection of the public. order would be preferable, but that disposal is not currently available to sentencers. Equally, for prisoners serving determinate sentences, the Parole Board must be satisfied that they are of low In the Eriksson case decided on 26 November 2009, risk to the public before they are granted early release. that was precisely the finding of Mr Justice Saunders, Under section 244 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, who presided over the prosecution of a person who when a fixed-term prisoner has served the requisite stabbed and killed a man while she was suffering from a custodial period the Secretary of State shall release him debilitating mental illness. In his sentencing remarks, on licence. Since 2005, those serving four years or more Mr Justice Saunders said that this have come out after serving 50% of their sentence— “would clearly have been a case for a hospital order”, regardless of the progress they have made while in but that “that disposal” was “not open” to him. He prison. wished to pass a sentence that would provide an appropriate My Bill would add a further subsection to this section, level of protection for the public, although not one which would ensure that before releasing a person sentenced designed to over-punish because the defendant’s culpability to four or more years in prison, the Parole Board must was low, owing to her mental illness. He expressed great be satisfied that the individual is at low risk of harm to frustration that Parliament does not allow sentencers to the public and low risk of reoffending. These amending order an extended period of licence, which he called “an provisions would ensure that incentives for rehabilitation unfortunate omission” in sentencers’ powers. are rewarded, but it is just as important that the courts In that regard, I would add a new clause to section 277 be given greater freedom to impose the sentences they to the effect that in determining whether to impose deem fit and have regard to the individual circumstances extended supervision a court shall have regard to any of each case. psychological or psychiatric assessment that is carried To satisfy this requirement, I would add an additional out following the commission of the offence as well as new clause to the Act on maximum and minimum the likelihood of the person being involved in further sentences. This would mean that when sentencing a similar serious offending. I believe that these new clauses person to a determinate prison sentence, the court shall would make vital revisions to sentencing, would grant state the maximum time that should be served and also greater autonomy to courts to review the circumstances the minimum term. The stated minimum term must be of each case and would reward the progress made in less than half the maximum sentence but no less than prison. I accordingly commend them to the House. one third of that sentence. In passing sentence, the Question put and agreed to. court should, of course, have regard to the seriousness of the offence and it may request a pre-sentence report Ordered, from a suitably qualified employee of the relevant probation That Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Mrs Linda Riordan, Claire trust. The notion of introducing maximum and minimum Perry, Chris Evans, Hywel Williams, Jonathan Edwards sentences was included in the last Conservative manifesto. and Mr Robert Buckland present the Bill. I referred earlier to the importance of courts being Mr Elfyn Llwyd accordingly presented the Bill. able when passing a sentence to pay greater regard to Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on the individual circumstances surrounding a case. The Friday 15 May, and to be printed. (Bill 150). 973 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 974

Mr Byrne: The hon. Gentleman makes a point that is Opposition Day central to the debate, to which I shall return in substance in a moment, after giving way to the Minister. [11TH ALLOTTED DAY] The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling): For the record, will the right Youth Unemployment hon. Gentleman confirm that last month’s unemployment figure in this country was 2.498 million, and that this month’s is 2.492 million? 1.18 pm Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I Mr Byrne: The unemployment figures are getting beg to move, worse, not better. This morning I heard the Minister quibble on the BBC that somehow unemployment in That this House believes that the Government was wrong to cancel the Future Jobs Fund that would have created 200,000 jobs our country was stabilising, but the truth of today’s for young people; further believes that the Government’s economic figures is that private sector employment is dead flat, policies have slowed economic growth, raised youth unemployment and the number of announced redundancies is growing and created the highest graduate unemployment for over a decade; by the day. [Interruption.] The Minister of State, further believes that urgent action is now required to stop a Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member generation of young people being lost to worklessness; and calls for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb) carps from a on the Government to commission an independent assessment of sedentary position, but he would be better off reverting the Future Jobs Fund to report to Parliament before the Government’s Work Programme is implemented and to evaluate whether a to the advice that he gave to the Conservative party guarantee and requirement of work incorporated into the Programme before the election about the importance of taking would bring down youth unemployment in the short and longer further steps to help get young people back to work. term and limit steep rises in welfare payments. I am glad that we have been able to force the Government Chris Grayling rose— to come to the House to debate the employment figures—or, rather, the unemployment figures—published this morning, Mr Byrne: Before I give way to the Minister, let me because those figures will worry families, young and finish this point, as I want to put a question to him. old, up and down the country. The headlines from this As I said, the rise in the dole bill makes the deficit not morning’s numbers are bad enough—five quarters after easier, but harder, to pay down. Although the Chancellor the recession ended, unemployment is not going down likes to pretend that the welfare cuts are somehow but up; employment is not rising but falling—but the hitting shirkers not workers, will the Minister confirm details are, I am afraid, even worse. Private sector that once we factor out the lower uprating the truth is employment is flat, while the number of public sector that more than half the cuts in welfare spending are jobs is falling fast. It is becoming clear that the private hitting working families? sector is not creating jobs fast enough to absorb the redundancies that we know are coming down the line. Chris Grayling: As the one who is intervening, I think There are now more women on the claimant count than it is my job to ask the right hon. Gentleman questions. at any time since 1996. Will he confirm that one of the bits of good news this The consequences for young people are perhaps most morning is that, for the second month in a row, job serious of all. One in five of our young people are now vacancies in the economy have increased significantly? out of work; the number of unemployed has risen Does he agree that that is an encouraging development? again; we now confront youth unemployment of almost a million—the highest figure on record. That figure is a Mr Byrne: Any increase in vacancies is good news, wake-up call to this Government to get their act together. but 40,000 is not an enormous increase, and when The question we want the House to debate today is private sector employment is dead flat and public sector quite simply, what should the Government do next? redundancies are mounting, I am afraid that it poses serious questions about whether unemployment will As if we needed it, this morning’s figures are, if continue to rise over the next couple of years. anything, fresh evidence of the need for a plan B on economic growth. We have rehearsed the debate in the Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Does my right House plenty of times over the past year, and I do not hon. Friend agree that, worrying as the youth plan to do so again this afternoon. Suffice it to say that unemployment figures are, the complacency demonstrated the Government are cutting spending too far and too by the Government in debate after debate is even more fast. The recession having been over for a year, we worrying. We heard today from the Prime Minister that would expect to see unemployment now falling fast, youth unemployment has been a problem for a long and yet it is not. Longer dole queues make the deficit time, but the Government’s policies are making the not easier to pay down, but harder. The result is that situation worse. In my constituency, 1,100 people will working families end up paying the price. potentially lose their jobs as a result of Auto Windscreens going into administration this week. All we hear from Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): The right hon. the Government is complacency, rather than an admission Gentleman was part of a Government who presided that their policies are making this major problem worse. over a record rise in youth unemployment. As his Government’s policies clearly did not work over 13 years, Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is right to highlight his should he not, instead of carping from the sidelines, get constituency case, which has caused concern to families behind the policies of the coalition Government, who up and down the country. We saw figures today showing are offering a fresh start to young people in this country? that earnings growth is now about half the rate of 975 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 976 inflation. At a time when the jobs market is weaker, that as I do, that one of our errors was not to introduce the will contribute to a tighter and tighter squeeze on future jobs fund earlier and put more resources into working families over the coming months. that than into the new deal?

Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): May I Mr Byrne: We have learned many lessons from the tell my right hon. Friend that in my constituency, in the future jobs fund, and there are many successes on which first 10 years of the Labour Government, youth we can build. I will turn to that question in substance unemployment was halved? Then we had a recession, when I dwell on what we should learn from the past and of course it began to rise. Will not the Government’s 10 years. cuts to the Connexions service, Opening Doors—one of The key point, which my right hon. Friend underlines, our local facilities paid for by central Government—and is that the right strategy for the Government during the education maintenance allowance for students who are recession and the worst financial crisis since the 1930s, in the middle of two-year courses result in more young was not to sit by and do nothing, or to watch as people going on to the dole? unemployment went through 3 million not once but twice, but to act, to save jobs, to keep people in their Mr Byrne: My right hon. Friend is right. Unless we homes, and to keep businesses moving. hear something of substance from the Minister, I am afraid that her prediction is all too likely to pan out. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): When the squeeze on living standards is about to get The right hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that, tougher and tougher, one would expect action from the under a Scottish National party Government, only in Government to help. In fact, more than half the welfare Scotland is unemployment falling and employment rising. cut will hit working families, and by the end of the He will also welcome the fact that we introduced 25,000 Parliament £3.4 billion will be taken off benefits for modern apprenticeships in our budget. Can he offer any children—far more than the amount being taken off explanation of Labour in Scotland’s opposition to that? bankers. Putting aside the question of what kind of Government take more money off children than off Mr Byrne: The right approach in the Scottish bankers, if the Chancellor had done what he should economy—where GDP growth has unfortunately been have done, and implemented a proper bonus tax on the weaker than growth in the UK generally over the last banks, he would have about £3.5 billion to invest in jobs period—is to build on the success of the future jobs and growth, including in jobs for young people. That fund and put in place not 3,000 opportunities for the must be the substance of our debate this afternoon. future, but 10,000. That is the approach Labour will propose in the run-up to the coming elections. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): On the simple numbers, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm whether Let us address Labour’s record in office, a substantive youth unemployment was higher or lower at the end of point which has already been mentioned. When Labour Labour’s term in office, despite the golden economic came to office in 1997 some 656,000 young people were inheritance that it had? out of work. As our economy grew, we introduced a welfare to work programme that included creating Jobcentre Mr Byrne: Let me respond to that point in substance Plus and the new deal, and which made sure that three in a moment, and I will invite the hon. Gentleman to quarters of our young people who went on to jobseeker’s intervene again. Right hon. and hon. Members on both allowance were off JSA within six months. Setting aside sides of the House will want to ensure that we draw the those in full-time education—and we substantially increased right lessons from the past 13 years, as they have a the number of people in full-time education—that meant critical bearing on the programme that we want the that the number of unemployed young people fell by Government to put in place for the future. some 20%. Indeed, between 1997 and the start of the global financial crisis the claimant count among young There are real differences between Government and people fell by some 40%, and that was at a time when Opposition about the macro-economic approach that the number of young people in our country was rising; we should take. We also share some values. Many of us between 2000 and 2009 it rose by over 1 million. I think share a passion to attack poverty in all its manifestations. that Members will therefore forgive me for agreeing We believe that the poverty of some impoverishes us all, with the man who described the progress we made as not only because it affects the chances of many to lead “remarkable”, and who said: the life that they would choose, but because it denies many the chances, opportunities, free range and scope “There is no question that the UK has made significant progress in the labour market over the last ten years.” to contribute to our country’s progress. I happen to think that the Secretary of State shares that belief, That man was the Government’s welfare reform Minister, about which I feel passionately, as my constituency has Lord Freud. the second highest unemployment in the country and, as this morning’s figures confirm, the highest youth Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): If unemployment. I do not have to go far to see wasted the last Labour Government’s proposals and policies talent—I see it, and think about it, when I go to work were such a success, why were one in five 16 to 24-year-olds every day. That inspires the passion with which many of out of work at the end of their period in office? us think carefully about the programme that the country needs to get youth unemployment back down. Mr Byrne: This may not have come up on the hon. Gentleman’s radar, but there was the worst financial Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): If we are looking crisis since the 1920s at the end of Labour’s term in back on our period of stewardship and offering the office. During that crisis, Labour did the right thing by Government lessons, does my right hon. Friend conclude, acting to get people back to work, to keep people in 977 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 978

[Mr Byrne] Chris Grayling rose— their homes and to help keep business on the move. Mr Byrne: I will give way to the Minister in a moment, That was a policy and approach which the hon. Gentleman’s but first I want to talk about the recession. As this party should have supported. afternoon’s interventions show, it is perfectly natural for Government Members to want to pray in aid figures Rehman Chishti: The right hon. Gentleman says that from the beginning of 1997 and figures from the height those economic difficulties arose towards the end of of the recession. This point cuts to the heart of the Labour’s time in office, but the increase in unemployment debate we need to have this afternoon. When the recession started back in 2001, not near the end of its time in hit, of course unemployment and the number of young office. people out of work rose, but we were not prepared to stand idly by and simply watch that happen, because we Mr Byrne: The figures are very clear. Between 1997 remember all too clearly the lessons of the 1980s when and the start of the global financial crisis the number of youth unemployment in this country spiralled up to young people on the claimant count fell by 40%. 26%. Instead, therefore, we chose to act: we chose to expand student numbers and apprenticeships and the Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): The right hon. chance to work. That is why in the final two quarters of Gentleman and his party seem to blame the global our time in office youth unemployment was falling, not financial crisis for every ill, but figures I received from rising, and by 67,000 or 9% by the time we left office. the House of Commons Library this morning make it When the Minister intervenes, perhaps he will explain clear that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham why, all of a sudden, that has now gone into reverse. and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) said, youth unemployment has been rising since 2001, yet the global financial crisis Chris Grayling: I am puzzled by a couple of points, did not start until 2008. How does the right hon. and I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman can Gentleman explain that? answer them for me. First, he keeps referring to the claimant count. Can he confirm that on the claimant Mr Byrne: The facts speak for themselves. Between count measure youth unemployment is 75,000 lower 1997 and the start of the financial crisis the number of now than it was at the general election? He also talks young people on the claimant count fell by 40%. Because about the period before the recession. Why did the of the changes we put in place, the number of young OECD publish a report in 2008 saying it was profoundly people coming off JSA within six months was about concerned about youth unemployment in the UK because three quarters of the number going on. That is why it was rising here but falling in every other developed Lord Freud—the Government’s own welfare reform country? Minister—was right to say that the progress we have made was “remarkable”. Mr Byrne: I would expect the OECD to express concern about youth unemployment. Youthunemployment Damian Hinds: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman is a serious issue, which is why we are having this debate. recognises the value of international comparisons as We do not think the Government’s plan is adequate to well as time series comparisons, so does he acknowledge deal with the problem. That is why youth unemployment that in years before the onset of the global financial is not falling at present, but is going up, which is what crisis, such as 2005, the number of young people not in this morning’s figures said. employment, education or training in this country was higher than the OECD average, higher than the EU Youth unemployment in the final period of Labour’s average, higher than in France, higher than in Germany time in office, which was also a time of economic and higher than in the United States? difficulty, fell by 67,000 or about 9%. Now all of that hard work has been undone. Since we left office, youth unemployment has not continued to fall. It has not even Mr Byrne: The number of young people not in education, held steady; it has gone up and up and up. We cut youth employment or training was lower, not higher, when unemployment even in the face of the economic storm, Labour left office than when we came to office. Far too yet the current Government have failed to do so even often, Conservative Members pray in aid that number—a with the winds of recovery at their back. They have number that is pretty static—but fail to acknowledge watched it rise while the economy is growing. That takes that the number of young people in our country increased some doing. by 1 million between 2000 and 2009.

Rehman Chishti: On the effects of the previous Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Does my right Government’s policies, 279,000 people started on the hon. Friend recall that two years ago during the passage flexible new deal, yet near the end only 3,000 were on it. of the Education and Skills Bill, we sought to extend That shows that the policy was a complete failure. the school leaving and training age from 16 to 18 but Members now on the Government Benches opposed Mr Byrne: The hon. Gentleman forgets to mention that? How did that help youth unemployment at that that the flexible new deal was introduced in the middle time? of the recession when unemployment was high, so that is possibly not the best way to evaluate the success of Mr Byrne: My right hon. Friend is right to raise that getting people back into work. I am sure we will learn question, which underlines the dilemma so many young later precisely which elements of the new deal the people now confront. With this morning’s numbers now current Government are continuing with in their Work on the public record, it is clear that young people face a programme. summer of anxiety. If they do not make the grades to 979 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 980 get into college—and we know the number of college period of Labour’s term in office, youth unemployment places is now more limited—they will face a labour was falling fast. Unemployment can never be as low as market that is tougher than ever. That is a worry for Members want, but the question that confronts us is them and their families, and for older residents in this how to draw the right lessons from those overwhelming country who, having worked hard all their life, are now successes in getting people back into work and how to concerned about who will pay for the future. apply the lessons to the present crisis when one in five young people is not in work. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Does the right hon. Gentleman not understand that there is one significant Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): Perhaps I can help distinction in respect of the figures he is discussing, in the right hon. Gentleman by making a short intervention. that there was massive over-reliance on putting people Does he believe that the previous Government’s spending into the public sector through many of these programmes of £3.5 billion on programmes to get young people back as a result of the legacy of economic failure that we to work while youth unemployment rose was good have inherited? Therefore, there is naturally now some value for money? shrinkage in the public sector. That is the big difference. We have to create real jobs in the private sector for the Mr Byrne: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman long term. was in the Chamber at the beginning of the debate when we explained the simple point that during the Mr Byrne: I genuinely appreciate the point that the latter months of our term in office, when the recession hon. Gentleman is making and the argument he is was difficult, youth unemployment was not rising but rehearsing. Perhaps he could intervene again to let me falling. All that progress—the fall between the peak of know whether a job in the public sector is better than no youth unemployment and when we left office—has job at all. been undone in the months since May.The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but it is a fact. That is why earlier this Nick de Bois: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman week the former chief economist at the Cabinet Office, for his invitation. A job is very important to the individual, Mr Portes, told the Government bluntly that the challenge no one doubts that; but we are talking about dealing of youth unemployment is serious. He told The Times with youth employment by creating work in a real that the Government were failing to address the scale of sector that will last. That is the difference. We will only the problem. Without urgent action, he warned, hundreds deal with the problem when the private sector has the of thousands of youngsters face a bleak employment opportunity to deliver long-term sustainable jobs—however prospect throughout the rest of their lives. That is why well intentioned the programmes to which the right our motion calls on the Government to reflect again on hon. Gentleman referred. the lessons of the future jobs fund, to commission an independent evaluation, draw the right lessons, learn Mr Byrne: The hon. Gentleman exposes the dilemma from them, establish a more substantial programme for that now perplexes the Government’s entire back-to-work the future, and do it with urgency. programme. Figures issued this morning reveal that The future jobs fund is at the heart of the motion. private sector employment is dead flat, yet public sector Because we felt so strongly about the scourge of youth employment is falling fast. What has become clear from unemployment, a concern that is shared by many Members, those figures is that because the Government have put we were determined to make sure that as it began to rise the recovery in the slow lane, the private sector is not again after falling so far, something was in place that creating jobs fast enough to absorb the scale of redundancies would help. We set up the future jobs fund because we that are being announced. knew that one of the greatest lessons from the 1980s is that when young people are allowed to drift too far Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Before I became a from the jobs market they lose the habit of work, which Member I ran a centre for the unemployed during the is a curse that can stay with them for the rest of their 1990s, so I know how painful things are for people who lives. That is why we made substantial investment, are unemployed long term. The hon. Member for Enfield which at the time was supported by the Conservatives, North (Nick de Bois) referred to public sector jobs. Let to get 150,000—rising to 200,000—new jobs that would us make it clear: nurses and teachers have real jobs and last six months, 100,000 of them for young people and provide real service to our communities. 50,000 of them in areas of high unemployment. My right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) is right to compare and contrast Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): the recessions of the 1990s and the present. In my My right hon. Friend said that he thought that the constituency, unemployment was 100% higher during Conservatives supported the future jobs fund. In March, the recession of the 1990s, because the programmes— before the general election, the present Prime Minister came to Liverpool to visit Merseystride, a social enterprise Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I that employed many people through the future jobs understand the point the hon. Gentleman is making, fund. He described the future jobs programme as a but we must have shorter interventions. I am sure the “good scheme” and said that his Government would right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill has keep any good scheme. Why does my right hon. Friend grasped the point. think that the Prime Minister has backtracked on what he said when he saw that project? Mr Byrne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). As many of my Mr Byrne: I think the answer is simple: despite good hon. Friends are doing this afternoon, he underlines the intentions, the Prime Minister has let the Chancellor get point that right across the country, over an extended the upper hand. I am afraid that is a negotiation the 981 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 982

[Mr Byrne] programme in 2011-12, and 565,000 in 2012-13, but the Department admits that 250,000 more people, around Department for Work and Pensions has lost, which is 850,000, went through the existing schemes in 2009-10. why its back-to-work programme is being slashed with such dangers for the future. Chris Grayling rose— I pay tribute to Steve Houghton, who was the leader of the local authority in Barnsley and did so much to Mr Byrne: So there we have it—one more broken pioneer the future jobs fund that has worked so well promise. Next year, in 2011, the Office for Budget there. The Barnsley scheme is widely acknowledged to Responsibility forecasts that the claimant count will be be one of the best in the country; it has 600 places for 1.5 million, the same as this year—[HON.MEMBERS: up to 12 months, a mixture of long-term and youth “Give way!”] In a moment. unemployed and a good track record on getting people into work. Barnsley, like other parts of the country, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. One faces a future where that assistance is being pulled away. at a time. If Mr Byrne does not wish to give way, the Minister will have to accept it. I am sure he has noticed The challenge for our young people is that they now that the Minister wants to intervene. confront a triple whammy. Education maintenance allowance has been cut, tuition fees have been trebled Mr Byrne: I will give way to the Minister in a moment. and the future jobs fund is a thing of the past. Without The whole House wants an explanation of why the the chance to work, without the chance to study, what promise to get more people back to work has been are our young people supposed to do? Can Ministers broken by the Prime Minister, because the Department tell us? There is not even a big society for young people for Work and Pensions has lost yet another battle to the to retreat to. Three quarters of youth charities are Treasury. actually closing projects; 80% say that is because targeted support for young people is ending. The Office for Budget Responsibility says that the claimant count next year will be 1.5 million, the same, In January, the Minister of State, Department for by the way, as this year. The problem is undiminished, Work and Pensions, the right hon. Member for Epsom yet the help is being cut away—the Minister’s Department and Ewell (Chris Grayling), decided to act. I commend is projecting 250,000 fewer places. When the correspondent him for that. He introduced a work experience scheme. from the BBC checked the figures this morning, she was It was only for eight weeks, not six months, it did not told by a DWP official that she was right. So how is the pay the minimum wage and it did not cover people Government’s scheme the biggest back to work plan leaving higher or further education, but at least he was ever? Is not the truth that the Minister has been done getting the idea. A fortnight ago, we learned that he was over once more by the Chancellor? Let him explain. stepping up the pace—moving up a gear: at the Tory party’s black and white ball we had the spectacle of an Chris Grayling: The right hon. Gentleman should not auctioneer selling prized internships at top City firms to believe everything he hears on the television. It is absolutely the highest bidder. What started as a crusade against clear that the Work programme will offer places through poverty has in just nine months become an auction of contracted-out providers to more people than was the life chances for the wealthy. No wonder the young case under the previous Government, and there is not people of this country feel that they face a lottery, and one single person receiving JSA or employment and the Minister is selling the tickets. support allowance who wants and needs support through Five people now compete for every job opening, and the Work programme who will not get it. this morning we heard that things are not getting better. According to the Library, in more than 120 of our Mr Byrne: Will the Minister explain why a DWP constituencies, there are more than 10 people competing official confirmed to the BBC yesterday that 850,000 for every job. Those people would yearn for a ticket to places were available under a Labour Government, and the black and white ball. [Interruption.] We have just that that would fall by 250,000 under the present heard something very important: the Secretary of State Administration? is putting a ticket on the sale block. If there was something better to replace the future Chris Grayling: If the shadow Secretary of State jobs fund, we might more easily comprehend its abolition. wants a briefing on the Work programme from the After all, this is what the Prime Minister promised when DWP, we will be delighted to offer him one. I suggest he told the BBC on Sunday 4 October 2009: that he does not take his information from the media. “I want the new Conservative Party to be the party of jobs and opportunity and at the heart of it is a big, bold and radical Mr Byrne: That was not a straight answer to a simple scheme to get millions of people back to work.” question, which was why a DWP official confirmed the I am afraid that last night we learned the truth from the figures to the BBC yesterday and again this morning. BBC, when it reported: The conclusion that the House can draw is a point that was made by the Office for Budget Responsibility—that “The government’s new ‘work programme’”, there is not enough confidence that the Government described by the Prime Minister as the “biggest and have a plan in place to get people back to work. Indeed, boldest ever” plan to get people off benefits and back to the OBR has so much confidence in the Government’s work, plan to get people back to work that it is forecasting a “will actually help fewer people than the existing schemes that declining rate of employment for the rest of this Parliament. ministers are scrapping, the BBC has learned.” I do not claim that the future jobs funds was some The Department for Work and Pensions has revealed kind of celestial design. I am sure there are aspects of it that it expects 605,000 people to go through the Work that could be improved. As my hon. Friend the Member 983 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 984 for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) mentioned a which now number around 156,000. We must remember moment ago, it was labelled “a good scheme” by the the lesson of the 1980s. When youth unemployment was Prime Minister on his trip to Liverpool. The evidence allowed to soar, and allowed to fester for years, communities on which it was abolished was simply not there. were damaged for generations. As the Cabinet Office’s In my constituency we have the highest youth former chief economist put it this week: unemployment in the country. The leaders of my jobcentre “If the Government doesn’t act it will not only damage the on Washwood Heath road have consistently said to me employment prospects of young people now but hurt them for the that the future jobs fund was one of the best programmes rest of their lives”. they have ever administered. Overwhelmingly, they say, The motion that we have tabled asks that the Government the young people they send on the programme do not look again at the lessons of the future jobs fund, be come back and join the dole queue. In their first months ambitious about the programme that they put in place, the Government rushed out some hasty research on its and ensure that they learn the lessons from the 1980s. expense. This is what the Work and Pensions Committee We fear that a generation is being lost to the clumsy had to say about that scribbled bit of analysis: behaviour of the present Administration, so I call on the Government this afternoon to think again, to preserve “A robust evaluation of the FJF has yet to be undertaken…insufficient information was available to allow the the promise that this country should make to its young Department to make a decision to terminate the FJF if this people, to reconsider the action that they are taking to decision was based on its relative cost-effectiveness.” ensure that our children will do better and better than That is an extraordinary indictment of the Government’s us, and to think again before we confront once again a rationale. The report says that half of future jobs fund lost generation. graduates get benefits at seven months, but that is because the programme ends at six months. 1.58 pm The Government dispute the claim that the scheme The Minister of State, Department for Work and created real jobs. I am not sure what Jaguar Land Rover Pensions (Chris Grayling): Following Mr Speaker’s ruling would say about that and the places that it created on last week, it is clear that it would be utterly unparliamentary the future jobs fund, but surely the point is that when to accuse any other hon. Member of being a hypocrite. people do not have a job, any job is a good job. I therefore give an absolute assurance that I will not do so this afternoon. It is clear, though, that the Opposition Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Can my right Front-Bench team is suffering from a bout of collective hon. Friend suggest what Age Concern Wirral in my amnesia. We should be concerned for their welfare. I constituency might think of the slashing of the future looked up the symptoms of amnesia, and it looks like jobs fund—a scheme that was not only providing work an open and shut case to me. Amnesia is a condition in for my constituents, but helping intergenerational which memory is disturbed or lost. In some cases it is relationships in Wirral and looking after some of the described as almost total disruption of short-term memory. most vulnerable people with early onset Alzheimer’s? What other possible explanation could there be for what we have just heard? I can only think that the right Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) In a recession private sector jobs are thin on the ground. cannot remember his time in office, so let me remind the Anything that keeps young people closer to the labour House what happened. He and his party stayed in market, closer to the habits of work and closer to the power for 13 years. One of their great missions was to disciplines of having a job must be a good thing. The tackle youth unemployment. Their former leader, his lesson from the 1980s, when youth unemployment spiralled former boss, the former Prime Minister and Chancellor, to 26%, is that if we let young people get too far away the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath from the habits of work, they are scarred for generations (Mr Brown), made his maiden speech on the subject to come. back in 1983. When, 14 years later, he took office and became Chancellor of the Exchequer, he said that the problem was a “human tragedy”, “sickening” and “an Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): When we economic disaster”. He had a mission for change. looked into the future jobs fund in the Select Committee, it became clear that everyone who had experience of it, What happened? Nine years later, in the middle of as a young person in a placement or as an employer, one of the biggest booms that this country has seen—let viewed it as a real job that lasted for six months, with a us remember that that was at a time when the then real wage, and was closer to the workplace than anything Chancellor was saying he had abolished boom and that could be offered by work experience. That is why it bust—the youth unemployment rate had gone up compared was successful. None of the providers had a bad word with 1997. It was higher than it had been when the to say about it. They thought it was a very good scheme. Labour Government took office. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State rightly said from a sedentary position a few moments ago, that was despite the billions Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend, who chairs the Work and of pounds spent on the new deal. In total, £3.8 billion Pensions Committee, makes an important intervention. was spent on new deal programmes to get more people I hope her comments allow us to strike a note of consensus. into work, yet in the end youth unemployment had My final point is about the long-term costs. In all increased. recessions and in all recoveries, it is our young people who face the toughest challenge. That is especially true Mr Byrne: Will the Minister explain why his colleague of the fight that young women in our country now Lord Freud described the progress that we made in confront. Overwhelmingly, they are working in the public tackling youth unemployment, long-term unemployment sector. Overwhelmingly, it is they who are exposed to and unemployment in the round as “remarkable”? Was the cuts and the redundancies that have been announced, he deluded, or was he right? 985 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 986

Chris Grayling: Well, we are still waiting for an apology Chris Grayling: We are taking decisions in the interests from the right hon. Gentleman for his Government’s of the country. When I look back to 2005 and 2006, we record. If he wants to quote colleagues, let me quote always knew that Labour was making a mess of things, one of his, the right hon. Member for Birkenhead but we never imagined that they could do it quite so (Mr Field)—sadly no longer in his place—who is one of spectacularly. the wisest figures in the House. When the statistics were produced in the latter part of the past decade, he said of Toby Perkins: If you realised that they were making youth unemployment: such a mess of things, why did you agree to follow those “We made huge gains at the expense of the Tories in 1997… plans? Is it not the right hon. Gentleman who has the and now we are not just back to where we started, but in a worse amnesia? position.” That is not from someone on the Government side of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Members the House, but from one of the shadow Minister’s right should not be using “you”—I have no responsibility for hon. Friends. That was not the half of it, because after this and am certainly not guilty for the unemployment that things got worse. More money was spent on more figures. programmes to get more people into work, but youth unemployment continued to go up and up. If he wants Chris Grayling: We spent years warning the Labour to intervene, perhaps he can explain why that was. Government that their spending was getting out of control and that they were mismanaging our economy, and now we see the consequences of what they did. Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the Minister for his kind What are we to do about the mess they created? Let us invitation. Will he accept that between 1997 and the start by debunking some of the myths that they are beginning of the global financial crisis, the claimant peddling. To listen to them, one might think that it was count for youth unemployment fell by 14%? To return all the fault of the coalition. Only last night the shadow to my previous question, why did Lord Freud, the Secretary of State stated in a press release: Minister responsible for welfare reform and his colleague “Labour’s legacy was falling youth unemployment and a pioneering in the Department, describe our progress as “remarkable”? programme to get 200,000 young people back to work. The Tories Was he deluded? scrapped that programme and now youth unemployment has escalated to a record high.” Chris Grayling: I think that the right hon. Gentleman What a load of complete tosh. should listen to his right hon. Friend the Member for The programme to which the shadow Secretary of State Birkenhead, who said that in 2006 that youth unemployment referred is the future jobs fund. Listening to him, one was worse than when Labour took power, and it carried would think that we had scrapped that programme last on getting worse after that. By the time of last year’s May, but as we sit here today, young people are still general election, youth unemployment was still 270,000 being referred to placements through the future jobs higher than it had been in 1997, and still they remained fund. Although Labour’s attempts to support the in denial—they remain in denial to this day. The greatest unemployed had largely proved to be expensive failures, brass neck of all was that two months ago the previous we decided early on that we would not remove them Prime Minister had the effrontery to claim: until our alternatives were in place. If the right hon. “Tragically Britain is entering yet another decade of youth Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill is right and things unemployment.” are getting worse, even though all the programmes we inherited from his Government are still running, what Just what does the Labour party think had been happening on earth does that say about the quality of provision he for the past 10 years when it was in government? put in place? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman also does not remember that during the last disastrous years of the Mr Byrne: It says that this Government have put the Labour Government he was Chief Secretary to the recovery in the slow lane. That is why the figures we saw Treasury. For those who do not know, that is the person this morning show that private sector employment is in Government responsible for keeping spending under dead flat and public sector employment is falling. It is control. It was not we who built up the biggest peacetime clear that the Government now need a plan B for the deficit this country has ever known, but him. What did economy. It must start with a proper tax on bankers and he do to stop his Prime Minister promising to spend the Government must use the money to do something money he did not have and making promises to the to get young people back to work. unemployed that he could not keep? Of course, there was the notorious letter to his successor: Chris Grayling: I just do not think the right hon. “Dear Chief Secretary, I’m afraid to tell you there is no money. Gentleman is listening to what I am saying. We have left Kind regards and good luck!” in place the support programmes that his Government What characterised the period that he and his colleagues left to support young unemployed people, and as of have so conveniently forgotten is that the Labour party today they are all still there. As he keeps pointing out, spent more and more money and made less and less youth unemployment has risen, so what does that say difference. It is no wonder amnesia has set in. about the quality of provision he left behind? It says that it was not much good.

Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Will Mr Byrne: If the Minister was so dead against it, why the Minister explain why the Conservative party committed is the right hon. Gentleman leaving it in place until the itself to the previous Government’s spending plans end of March? Since the Government took over, youth when in opposition? unemployment has started to rise, even though the 987 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 988 economy has now been in recovery for five quarters. We The Conservatives supported it, so does he know of any were bringing youth unemployment down at a time of reason whatever why Labour cannot support an increase economic difficulty; since things have got easier, youth in apprenticeships in Scotland? unemployment has gone up. How on earth did the right hon. Gentleman achieve that? Chris Grayling: It makes no sense at all. I have a theory. The hon. Gentleman and I agree that Chris Grayling: What we know is that the programmes apprenticeships are by far the best way of delivering the right hon. Gentleman left behind were not fit for long-term, sustained career opportunities for young purpose. people, but the future jobs fund was introduced a few months before the general election, and it was designed Mr Byrne: Well, why did you keep them? to move a large number of young people into temporary placements. He will form his own judgments as to what Chris Grayling: I happen to think that youth might have motivated that decision. unemployment is a significant issue and would rather The reality is that, in early tracking—and I accept it retain for a few months a programme that is is early tracking—of outcomes from the future jobs underperforming while we prepare something better fund, the very first data showed that a substantial than do nothing at all. The right hon. Gentleman seems proportion, about 50%, of people who had been on the to think that we are doing nothing at all, but the truth is scheme were already back on benefits seven months that we are doing just the opposite. It was his party that after they started; and that did not take into account did nothing at all for a long period of time. the fact that in many areas local authorities had extended Let us deal with the argument about the future jobs future jobs fund placements by two or three extra fund once and for all. It costs around £6,500 per start—net months. In April, we will get a sense of the scheme’s real of benefit savings, just under £6,000. That is far more impact, but the first evidence suggests to me that it has expensive that Labour’s other programme for young not proved to be any more effective than previous new people, the new deal for young people, which costs deals or other similar schemes that cost much less around £3,500 per job, and several times more expensive money. than other elements of the young person’s guarantee. It is twice as expensive as an apprenticeship, which I Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): On that happen to think is of much greater value. Even when we point, do the Government honestly believe that for net off all benefit savings, the future jobs fund is still 50% of young people to be in work a full month after much more expensive than any other option that the their future jobs fund placements— previous Administration put in place, and it did not work. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Colleagues may disagree, but to me a future job is one Pensions (Steve Webb): That’s not what he said. that lasts and on which a young person can build a career and sustain an opportunity for a lifetime. The Pamela Nash: My point comes from the same statistics. future jobs fund did, and does, create temporary short-term Do the Government honestly believe that 50% of young placements, mostly through the public sector, where people being in full-time work a month later is a failure? young people did not end up getting the kind of sustained In our opinion, it is a great success for the fund. work experience and training leading to a long-term career. The grants that funded the future jobs fund Chris Grayling: If that were the case. In reality, we included no incentives whatever to move people into know that a number of placements continued for seven, permanent jobs. eight or nine months after being funded by local money, so the first indications are that the final outcome of the Mr Lammy: The Minister mentioned apprenticeships, future jobs fund will be no better than other employment and of course the whole House will know that there is programmes, but involve a much higher price. an ambitious target to deliver 50,000 apprenticeships over the next year. We are now eight months in, so can Mr Byrne: The Minister is helpfully rehearsing a he tell us how many new apprenticeships have been series of his uncertainties about the effectiveness of the delivered? future jobs fund. Why will he not therefore back the part of our motion which says that a proper evaluation Chris Grayling: The latest information I have received is needed before a further decision can be taken on what from my colleagues in the Department for Business, is put in place in the future? Innovation and Skills, who are responsible for this, is that apprenticeship vacancies are currently over-subscribed Chris Grayling: I fully accept that there is a difference by both employers and employees. We are making good between us. The right hon. Gentleman believes that the progress towards delivering on that target and will future jobs fund—six-month placements in the public obviously publish full figures in due course. I am confident and voluntary sectors—is the right approach. I happen that we are making inroads in the apprenticeship market to believe that apprenticeships—two years of training and creating opportunities for young people that will and the possibility of a longer-term career at half the last a lifetime, not just six months. price—is a better one. I am fully prepared to accept that that is a difference between us, but in reality our Pete Wishart: Will the right hon. Gentleman please approach—tens of thousands of extra apprenticeships, take no lessons from the Labour party on apprenticeships? which the Scottish Administration have also chosen Some 25,000 were offered in the Scottish budget last but, I am surprised to discover, the Labour party opposes week, but Labour, for some reason, voted against it. in Scotland—is a better route to follow. 989 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 990

Albert Owen: I, too, have supported apprenticeships the actual figure was 240,000, so I shall take no lessons over the past decade, and they have been a great success, from the Opposition about delivering promises on but companies in my constituency, and one in particular, apprenticeships. We plan to deliver, and are already well say to me that they cannot take on apprentices because on the way to delivering, 50,000 extra apprenticeships they are faced with a consumption tax rise of 2.5 percentage this year, 75,000 extra by the end of this Parliament and points in VAT. Is that not one reason why businesses are more apprenticeships for young people between 16 and not taking on apprentices? Indeed, the Minister is unable 18 years old. Those apprenticeships will cost about half to tell us how many additional apprenticeships there that of each future jobs fund placement, but they will have been in the past eight months. deliver the skills that last a young person a lifetime, and the opportunity to progress on to a secure career path. Chris Grayling: Does the hon. Gentleman honestly think that businesses in his constituency would have Alison McGovern: I thank the Minister for giving been better off with a 1 percentage point jobs tax rise, as way, because this is a truly important point. When I the previous Administration planned? That would have have asked parliamentary questions about targets for caused more of an increase in unemployment than the number of apprenticeships, the Government have anything else the Government could have done. told me that they no longer set such targets, so will the Minister make clear the status of the pledge that he has The right hon. Member made one point, however, just made? which is absolutely right and with which we absolutely agree. Youth unemployment is a major problem for our Chris Grayling: We fund a certain number of society and one that absolutely must be tackled. The apprenticeships, and there are 50,000 extra this year. failure to tackle youth unemployment with schemes They are being filled at the moment, as we speak. We that work contributes so much to many other issues that will fund 50,000 extra apprenticeships this year and we have to deal with on streets and in neighbourhoods 75,000 extra throughout the course of the comprehensive throughout the country. spending review. A few days ago BIS set out a clear goal Endemic worklessness is underpinned by an ever to increase the number of apprenticeships in this country more complex benefits system that traps people in to 350,000. We have been in office for nine months; the unemployment. Inter-generational poverty is fuelled by Labour party was in office for 13 years, and it consistently welfare dependency, involving generation after generation under-delivered on apprenticeships throughout those of people who have not worked. There is a lack of 13 years. aspiration, especially among young people who lack role models in a country where almost 2 million children Mr Lammy: The Minister has been extraordinarily are growing up in workless households. Worst of all, the generous in giving way, and I am very grateful, but he young people who escape welfare dependency and poverty has not been able to tell the House how many will still carry the economic scars of unemployment for apprenticeships he has delivered in the past nine months. years afterwards, in terms of lower wages and future I set up the graduate talent pool, which involved internships employment gaps. That is the harsh reality of Labour’s for graduates. Alongside the internships that were offered legacy for our young people. at the Conservative party event recently, how many internships have been delivered for our graduates in the Dame Anne Begg: I worry about the either/or in the past nine months? Minister’s equation. He says that the answer is either Chris Grayling: Let me tell the right hon. Gentleman apprenticeships or the future jobs fund, but it should be what we are doing to get young people into the workplace both, because the young people who go into apprenticeships for the first time. are not the same cohort who suffer the inter-generational One of the first things I received on entering government worklessness to which he refers. They need extra support, was an e-mail from the mother of a young woman who and that is where the future jobs fund has been very, had arranged a month’s work experience for herself but very effective. been told by Jobcentre Plus that she could not do it, because the rules, which the previous Administration Chris Grayling: I accept the principle but do not agree put in place, prevented her from doing so. We have with the detail of what the hon. Lady says. I shall come therefore changed things. on to discuss the Work programme and how I aim to use it to deal with the problem that she rightly highlights. We now encourage work experience. Through Jobcentre Plus, we will actively find work experience for young Opposition Members should remember that over the people, without their losing their benefits, and give years they made lots of promises about apprenticeships them the opportunity to solve the age-old problem but consistently under-performed on them. Our job is whereby, if someone cannot get the experience, they do to make sure we do not do that. not get the job, but, if they do not get the job, they cannot get the experience. Mr Byrne: The right hon. Gentleman surely accepts We have also strengthened volunteering opportunities that the number of apprenticeships increased from about for young people, and we will have Prince’s Trust 63,000 in 1997 to more than 250,000 by the time we left representation in every job centre, so that we can steer office. Surely that is a record of success in backing young people towards voluntary work and take advantages apprenticeships, and I am glad that it is a point of of the trust’s skills to help unemployed young people. consensus on both sides of the House. Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Is my Chris Grayling: I remember the right hon. Gentleman’s right hon. Friend as incredulous as I am at the Opposition’s former boss standing in this House and promising faux outrage? They are members of the party that, about 400,000 apprenticeships. When Labour left office, during 13 years of government, imported low-wage, 991 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 992 low-skilled people from eastern Europe—more than 1 Chris Grayling: We published those figures in December. million of them—and pushed thousands of young people I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman read the invitation into welfare dependency and on to the dole. They to tender for the Work programme. I will tell him, should be ashamed of themselves. however, that the number of people who went through contracted programmes in the last year of the Labour Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Government was well under 600,000, and that next There is collective amnesia among those on the Labour year’s projections for the Work programme are over Benches. One of the things they have also conveniently 600,000. As for my noble Friend Lord Freud, if he forgotten, which was revealed by one of their number, thought that the Labour Government were doing so the right hon. Member for Birkenhead, is that over the well, why does the right hon. Gentleman think that he course of those years nearly 4 million new jobs were joined us? created in this country, the vast majority of which went The Opposition were in government for 13 years, to people coming to the UK from overseas. The Labour during which they systematically delivered for this country Government completely failed to make a serious inroad a higher level of youth unemployment than they inherited. into the nearly 5 million people on benefits, or to get They spent almost £4 billion on new deal programmes, British people into what was once described as the goal much of it aimed at getting young people into work. of the previous Prime Minister—British jobs for British Even while all that money was being spent, we saw workers. youth unemployment grow between 2005 and early 2007 and rise steadily in the run-up to the recession. Mr Lammy: Will the Minister give way? Back in 2008, the OECD published a report raising concerns about what the British Government were doing Chris Grayling: No, I have given way enough, and I and stating that only in Britain was youth unemployment am going to make progress. [Interruption.] When Labour rising, while everywhere else it was falling. Members have some useful contributions to make, I So let us have no more accusations from Labour might give way again. Members about the coalition’s record. We have been in We now need to talk about what we are going to do office for nine months. We inherited from them 600,000 about this. The Work programme, which we will introduce young people who left school, college or university and this summer, will, I hope, go a significant way towards have never worked. We are moving ahead with plans dealing some of the problems to which the hon. Member that will make a real difference to those young people— for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) referred. We through the Work programme, through apprenticeships, have huge challenges in the labour market, with young and through the schemes we are introducing at Jobcentre people who face huge difficulties in their backgrounds. Plus level to help them into employment. For them, the Work programme will deliver specialist intervention after just three months in the dole queue— Joan Ruddock: Will the Minister give way? much earlier than it has ever been done before. It will be Chris Grayling: No, I am going to wind up now. a revolution in back-to-work support in Britain. It will The Opposition were in government for 13 years, and provide a level of personalised support that we have not they failed abjectly. They spent billions; they delivered seen before, because in order to survive in a payment-by- nothing at all. They left youth unemployment as a results regime, the providers will need to cater for the national challenge and a national disgrace—part of a individual. It is the kind of revolution we have needed legacy of chaos and failure from a Labour Government for years—the kind that was promised in Labour rhetoric who ran out of money and ran out of ideas. It is time but never delivered. that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill and other Labour Members recognised the damage Mr Byrne rose— that they did to this country, and time they realised that it will be a long, long time before the people of this Chris Grayling: I will give way once more, and then I country even start to consider the possibility that they am going to wrap up. might ever be fit to govern again. Mr Byrne: It is curious that the Minister’s colleague Several hon. Members rose— Lord Freud noted in his report: Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Before “The New Deals have been enormously successful”. I bring other Members in, let me just say that the Front He also said: Benchers have taken up quite a lot of time because of “The creation of Jobcentre Plus…is…seen as…a model for interventions. We now have an eight-minute limit on effective public service delivery.” speeches. Not all Members have to take all eight minutes, He further commented: and fewer interventions will mean that I can get more “The Government has made strong, and in some respects people in. I call Mr Chris Ruane. remarkable, progress over the last ten years.” I hope that those are lessons on which the Minister can 2.24 pm draw. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Thank you, There has been some dispute about the numbers that Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me so early in the the BBC published. Will the Minister now set out for debate. the House his assumptions for this year, next year and In 2002, the unemployment statistics for my county the year after about how many people will flow through of Denbighshire showed that out of its 34 wards, 50% of the Work programme? If he is disputing the figures, let the unemployment was in two wards alone—Rhyl West us hear it from him—what are they? and Rhyl South West. Rhyl South West contained the 993 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 994

[Chris Ruane] Chris Ruane: No—I am afraid that I might get my head bitten off. council estate where I grew up and lived for 26 years. Why did the coalition Government not take evidence? Many of those unemployed people were related to me. They could have come to my constituency and consulted Over the past nine years, it has been a personal crusade Ali Thomas and the young people taking part in these of mine to do something about that. In 2002, I established schemes, who were gaining confidence, experience, an unemployment working group, with people from the camaraderie and esprit de corps in their groups of 10 to college, the Department for Work and Pensions, Jobcentre 15, and feeling pride and joy in being able to plan their Plus, the police, economic regeneration bodies and the first holiday, take their first driving lesson, or gain a Welsh Assembly Government getting together around certificate from the local college, and in having meaningful the table to create jobs for people, including young work with a meaningful pay packet at the end of the people, in my constituency. week. I will be sending the Minister, who is still not In 2007, the DWP agreed that Rhyl could be one of listening, a DVD made by those young people about 15 city strategy pilots for the whole of the UK. Although their job placements. I hope that he will look at it and it is not a city but a town of only 27,000 people, Rhyl get back to me. was included mainly as a pilot scheme for 52 seaside When I stared those young people in the eye at the towns in the UK. Since then, we have made great strides presentations, they were full of pride and joy at their in putting young people back to work in my constituency. achievements—achievements that will be dashed by the The leader of the people who have administered the Conservative party. One of the main attractions to the future jobs fund for the Rhyl city strategy is Ali Thomas, young people in the scheme was that it was a proper job a dedicated professional in getting young people back with a proper rate of pay. They could be sacked if they to work. This is what she said about the Government’s did not turn up or if they were not motivated enough, decision to abolish the future jobs fund: and they had to be punctual. Their reward was the “The subsidy enabled employers to consider taking on long potential for a job at the end of the six-month placement. term unemployed people, many with multiple problems. They Shorter, cheaper, unsubsidised placements will not were able to do this because of the subsidy. The employers were have the same take-up or buy-in among young people. taking a risk with these young people but the subsidy made the risk worthwhile.” Such schemes that were introduced by the Conservatives in the past were pilloried and laughed at by the young She went on to say: people who attended them. YTS was called “young, “It wasn’t a one way street. Employers gained well motivated thick and stupid” by young people. They want no part young workers. Nearly 60% of those that completed the placement in such schemes. They want quality schemes like those scheme went on to gain long term employment with the employer.” introduced by the previous Government and abolished Apart from those 60%, a further 10% to 20% went on by this Government. into full-time education at the fantastic Rhyl college, The future jobs fund has the respect of the young built by the Labour Government—the first college we people who have participated, the employers who have have ever had, and a £10 million investment. A 70% to taken them on and the people who have administered it. 80% placement rate in full-time education or full-time The main reason given for its abolition was the cost. employment is not bad by anyone’s standards. The Government deemed £6,500 too much to pay to I ask the Minister, who is chatting away down there, turn around a young life. I ask Government Members what targets he is setting for his new Work scheme: 50%, who send their children to private schools how much 60%, 70% or 80%. I hope that he will intervene and tell they pay a year to turn their children’s lives around. me. He did not know the figures on the number of There is one rule for the rich and another for the poor. apprenticeships or internships but can he tell me his target for full-time employment placements of young Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): Thirty grand people on the schemes that he is going to put in place? for Eton. Chris Ruane: I am informed by my hon. Friend that it Chris Grayling: The Deputy Speaker does not want is £30,000 for Eton. Under the scheme, its cost £6,500 to extended interventions, so I simply refer the hon. Gentleman turn around a young life. But no, that is too much. to the invitation to tender for the Work programme, There are a million young people—and the number is which will give him some of the details he wants. rising—on the dole. What will be the cost if they fall into a life of crime? If that positive path is denied them, Chris Ruane: The Minister does not know. they might turn down a negative path. It costs £50,000 a From my perspective as a constituency MP, and from year to keep a person incarcerated. That is money down that of young people affected in my constituency, the the drain. decision to end the future jobs fund is nothing short of political spite. The Work and Pensions Committee report Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman said that the DWP give way? “should conduct a comprehensive evaluation of the effectiveness Chris Ruane: No, I would get told off. I am sorry, of the Future Jobs Fund and publish the results.” Mr Deputy Speaker, but I feel that I would. This obviously should have been done before the closure My local future jobs fund is administered by Rhyl of the FJF. That is common sense, but it was not done. city strategy and is one of the most effective in the country. It had a monthly target to put 320 people back Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Will my to work. It was bang on every month. It was so effective hon. Friend give way? that it had to hunt for another 100 young people to put 995 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 996 back to work, which it got through the WCVA. That have considered the big society, I would like to share effective partnership has been snuffed out by the with the House some examples of imaginative and Conservative party. A key part of the success of the proactive partnership working that I have witnessed on FJF in my constituency was that the funding was delivered the ground in Thurrock to give young people more to a local partnership. That minimised bureaucracy and skills. Thurrock trade school offers evening classes to red tape, which the Conservative party is always banging children aged 14 to 16 who want to learn a trade. It on about—there was no red tape or bureaucracy in the offers courses in carpentry, bricklaying, plumbing and FJF in Rhyl. That was welcomed by the employer. electrics. Young people attend two-hour classes over Shorter-term, unsubsidised schemes will not work. 12 weeks. The courses are sponsored by Morrison, a They did not work in the past, and they will not work in local building contractor, which provides tools and the future. mentoring to guide young people towards the opportunities that might be open to them through pursuing the training. Morrison has also engaged as apprentices people who 2.33 pm have been through the courses. Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): I am sure that The background to Morrison’s involvement is that it every Member of this House believes it is a tragedy that was awarded the housing maintenance contract by Thurrock so many of our young people are not in work, education council. As part of that contract, the council asked it to or training. Nearly two-thirds of unemployed 18 to invest in such training. That is a brilliant illustration of 24-year-olds have not done any kind of work since how imagination can be used to make use of commercial leaving school or college. That trend has accelerated partnerships to deliver outcomes for the benefit of the over a number of years; not just over the eight months entire society. That is the kind of thinking we want to of this Government, as the motion states. encourage as we build the big society. The example of The motion is right about the need for urgent action Thurrock trade school also illustrates the value of working to tackle long-term joblessness among our young people. with employers, because they will invest in the skills that However, the future jobs fund is not the answer, as the they need. We all benefit from such involvement. Minister has explained. It has been expensive and ineffective. Finally, we need to open the eyes of young people to What we need is support that delivers real skills and the opportunities that work-based training can bring. jobs, and that adds to the employability of young With that in mind, I commend another initiative to the people. With that in mind, I endorse the Government’s House: Thurrock’s Next Top Boss awards. Next Top commitment to investing further in apprenticeships. I Boss is another partnership scheme that is run by believe that the Work programme will provide personalised Thurrock council, the Thurrock development corporation help based on individual needs, through working with and a large number of private employers such as Procter private and voluntary providers. Ultimately, we need & Gamble, Carpetright and other big employers that more engagement with employers to equip young people operate in Thurrock. The competition is open to 17 to with the skills that will enable them to find work. 19-year-olds. The objective for the employers is to help So far, this debate has centred on what we do to help equip teenagers with the skills, confidence and contacts young people when they become unemployed. I would they need to enter the world of work. Competitors are like to talk about initiatives in my constituency that are invited to take part in events in which they can show all intended to prevent young people from becoming their skills, such as working with a team and responding unemployed. That means investing in skills training for to projects. The employers that participate can show the young people while they are of school age. In areas such vast assortment of careers that are available in their as mine, where comparatively few young people go on organisations. The incentive for the young people is that to university, such initiatives are extremely important if they compete for prizes, including gift vouchers, work we are to get the proportion of people not in employment, placements and even jobs. It is, dare I say it, “The training or work down further. Apprentice”, Thurrock-style. Central to its success is the involvement of local employers that are attracted to The first initiative is run by one of the new academies the opportunity to identify future apprentices for their in my constituency, the Gateway academy in Tilbury, workplace and to showcase the opportunities that they offer. which has gone out of its way to develop a strong focus on employment options and to offer advice to its pupils. I do not mourn the passing of the future jobs fund. I It has developed a curriculum that is tailored to the look forward to the Government’s reforms delivering needs of its pupils and to the job opportunities in the improvements in the opportunities available to young area. In addition, it has established a project called people. I hope that Thurrock’s big society examples will Gateway Connect, which uses a redundant industrial inspire other employers, councils, schools and voluntary workshop as a strong vocational learning facility to organisations, as they consider how they can contribute offer pupils work-based training and vocational to tackling joblessness among our young people. qualifications. Through that project, 18 pupils have been able to pursue vocational training and only two 2.40 pm are not in employment, education or training now that Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): I am proud to they have left. That shows the impact of such strong say that the future jobs fund was inspired by the review work-based projects. With that focus, the proportion of by the excellent leader of Barnsley council, Steve Houghton. pupils who become NEETs on leaving the school has I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, fallen from 18% in 2008 to a mere 4% in 2010. That Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) for his warm and fitting tribute makes the case for tackling this problem in schools, to Steve Houghton earlier in the debate. Barnsley was rather than waiting until young people are on the dole. one of the first councils to implement the scheme, There are other projects in Thurrock that are not which has made an important difference to many, not based on the school curriculum. In a week in which we only in my constituency but across the country. Since its 997 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 998

[Michael Dugher] Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that, right in the middle of a recession, the whole inception in 2009, the future jobs fund has given young point was for the public sector to provide some of those people and the long-term unemployed valuable jobs—in construction, for example—to keep people’s opportunities by creating real work, with real experience skills up, ready for when the private sector picked up? and real job prospects. In Barnsley, a third of those on the programme have already gone into jobs. It is hoped Michael Dugher: My hon. Friend is exactly right. that 200 people will be in employment before the funding Those 2,000 private sector jobs in my constituency regrettably expires in March. are coming from ASOS, the online fashion company—I The Government’s decision to scrap the fund—a do not see too many takers in the Chamber for its scheme that would have created up to 200,000 jobs for clothes, but we live in hope—but those jobs did not young people up and down the country—is sadly just happen by accident. The reason 2,000 jobs are coming another example of how they are letting young people to my constituency is that when Labour was in government, down. Ending the future jobs fund was one of the we built the facilities that will house those jobs. We built Government’s early decisions. Since then, the education the road that attracted the company in the first place. maintenance allowance has gone, tuition fees have been The public sector plays a big part in supporting private trebled, we are seeing cuts to Sure Start and the school sector jobs. building programme is being cut across the country. Tackling youth unemployment has been a challenge for Sajid Javid: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? all Governments, but thanks to initiatives such as the future jobs fund, youth unemployment fell by nearly Michael Dugher: No; I want to make some progress. 25,000 between February and April 2010. We want to see more private sector jobs, but the Since this Government were elected, there has been a Government need to move away from the mentality that massive jump in youth unemployment. Figures out says that public sector jobs are not, as the hon. Member today show that it has risen to a record high, with more for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) said, “real” jobs. In than one in five 16 to 24-year-olds now out of work—a many parts of the country, the choice is not between a rise of 66,000 people to nearly 1 million. In my constituency, public sector job and a private sector job; it is between a nearly 14% of the population are aged between 18 and job and no job. The criticism that too many of the jobs 24, yet that age group accounts for 35% of people were in the public sector—a criticism that I share—is claiming jobseeker’s allowance. We are facing a youth not a reason to scrap the scheme, but a reason to unemployment crisis in this country the scale of which strengthen it. It is an argument to expand it to include we have not seen since the 1980s. If the Government do more private sector businesses in those unemployment not act, this will not only damage our young people’s blackspots and to invest in industry. employment prospects, but affect them for the rest of The positive benefits of employment cannot be their lives. It is well documented that early spells of overstated. Most people cite a lack of confidence and unemployment for an individual, result in reduced skills as the reason for not finding work. Having a job is employment prospects and lower earnings over their good for people’s well-being and their physical and lifetime. Today, for every 100,000 people that this mental health. It provides them with an opportunity to Government put out of work, £500 million is added to prove themselves, giving them an identity, confidence the cost of paying jobseeker’s allowance, so theirs is not and self-worth—the pride that comes from having money even a strategy for reducing the deficit. in their pocket and the dignity of knowing that they The fundamental flaw in the Government’s Work have just earned it. Everyone knows that it is also easier programme is that there is simply not enough work. to get a job for those who already have one. They fail to understand that in parts of the country We saw the impact of previous Conservative there are still unemployment blackspots. Focusing on Governments in areas such as the one that I am proud job output may be fine in some parts of the country, to represent—a whole generation of young people growing where the economy may be expanding, but it will not up with little or no hope of getting a job. It is clear that work in more deprived areas such as Barnsley, where this Government have not learnt from those mistakes, there are still serious structural problems in the local and are once again letting young people down. There is economy and where simply not enough jobs are available. a growing consensus that the Government need a plan In my constituency, there are currently just over B to get the economy right—growth has stalled—but it 190 Jobcentre Plus vacancies for more than 2,500 people is equally obvious that they need a plan A to deal with claiming jobseeker’s allowance. That amounts to unemployment and, in particular, the lack of opportunities 14 claimants for every job vacancy. However, this for young people in my constituency and throughout Government’s approach is solely about getting people the rest of the country. into existing jobs. There is no policy for either job creation or the growth that would create those jobs, particularly in the weaker economies. 2.47 pm The Government have to think again, as our motion Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): It is worrying says. There is an overwhelming need for a job creation how many young people are unemployed at the moment. programme targeted particularly on those areas with We can bandy figures around all day, but the figure that the highest unemployment. The main criticism of the sticks with me is that one in five young people between future jobs fund is that not enough jobs were created in 16 and 24 are out of work. That is a worrying—indeed, the private sector. We all want to see more jobs in the horrifying—statistic, and is a tragedy for every one of private sector, and in my constituency we will have them, and for their families and the communities around 2,000 more jobs. them too. However, when we look more deeply it becomes 999 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1000 clear that this situation is, in part, the Labour legacy, as Mr Byrne: Will the hon. Lady give way? has been mentioned over and over today. The number of people who have been unemployed for more than Jenny Willott: I will not. 12 months has increased. This Government have not yet The future jobs fund was clearly not working in the been in power for more than 12 months, so we are way that it was supposed to. As with many of Labour’s clearly dealing with a legacy left by the last Labour programmes, the words and the theory were positive Government. As a result of Labour messing up the but the practice was poor. It was not properly designed economy, the Government are having to deal with a or monitored. It simply was not thought through. It did serious financial mess and the unemployment that goes not deliver sustainable employment for young people. alongside that. People have talked about complacency about the Instead, we need to create a skilled work force and youth unemployment figures. I have not seen complacency generate jobs for those skilled young people. Apprenticeships on either side of the House today—clearly people are make people more employable, potentially by the people seriously concerned—but if Labour Members were that by whom they have been trained, but also by similar concerned they could have done significantly more when businesses. CBI evidence shows that 90% of apprentices they were in office, rather than leaving a lot of young find employment or become self-employed immediately people on the shelf. Labour could have done more in after their training ends, which means that apprenticeships power to ensure that people had the opportunities that are clearly far more successful than the future jobs they needed. fund. The group that concern me the most are those who Mr Lammy: Will the hon. Lady give way? are furthest from the jobs market. For many of them, apprenticeships are inappropriate. They are a particularly Jenny Willott: I will not give way. Everyone will have vulnerable group, and in the past they have been particularly the chance to speak later if they wish. ill-served. We need to ensure that the Work programme As has been mentioned, unemployment among young will work, and that the Government learn the lessons people has gradually increased since 2002, and that was from previous programmes to ensure that those vulnerable during the good times, so clearly in the bad times it will young people are helped back into work. not be easy to get people back into work. It is now even I am glad to see that, under the Work programme, harder for the new Government to get them into work, young people will get help at a much earlier stage than as they have already been out of work for longer, and they do under the future jobs fund. They will be referred we know that the longer people have been out of work to the Work programme when they have been on jobseeker’s and the further they are from the jobs market, the more allowance for nine months, rather than 12 months as effort, money and time it takes to get them back into happens under the FJF. More tailored support will be work. However, the problem is that the future jobs fund available for those with the most severe disadvantages, was not working. It was created to ease youth and they will be referred after three months if they are unemployment and make the figures look better; it was not in employment, education or training. All the evidence not established to create long-term sustainable jobs. shows that we need to get in there as early as possible if Opposition Members have mentioned that many times, we are to have an impact. Even with all that evidence, but it is not that public sector jobs are not real jobs—of however, the previous Government did not quite achieve course they are—but rather, that the jobs created for the their aims, so we really need to ensure that we learn future jobs fund were not real jobs. They were short-term, those lessons now. six-month placements created for the purpose of the In addition, under the Work programme, the fees will fund; they were not jobs that were sustainable in the be structured so that providers will get more if they help long run. That has been borne out by the initial information those who are furthest from the jobs market and keep on what people have done after being placed by the them in work for longer. We hope that that will make a future jobs fund. About 50% of people were back on real difference to that group of people. Again, that is working-age benefits after seven months—one month something that the previous Government tried to do, after finishing their placement. Of those in a comparable but they did not go quite far enough. I hope that the group who found work through other programmes or coalition Government will learn the lessons from that found work for themselves, only 35% were back on and ensure that these measures are implemented. jobseeker’s allowance after seven months. Clearly, the future jobs fund has not been working. It is performing Following the demise of the future jobs fund, we all less well than the other programmes that the previous want to see much better, tailored support aimed at the Government put in place. needs of young people. We cannot afford to damage the career prospects of another generation of young people, Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Will as happened in the 1980s and early ’90s. We have to the hon. Lady give way? learn the lessons, particularly the ones that the previous Government did not learn from the work that they were Jenny Willott: No; I want to ensure that there is time doing. for as many people as possible to speak. The numbers are bad, and the individual stories are The future jobs fund is not cost-effective. It costs a heart-wrenching. I am sure that we have all had people lot, and that money could be better spent. In theory, it coming to see us in our surgeries who are at their wits’ was aimed at those who were furthest from the jobs end and absolutely desperate to find work. We need to market, but it seems that a large number of those ensure that another generation is not left behind, but people in placements were graduates. For example, about the Opposition’s proposals in the motion today are 20% of the people taken on by Birmingham city council simply not the way to do it. The future jobs fund has had at least one degree. not worked so far, and given that the number of young 1001 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1002

[Jenny Willott] Democrats who are prostituting every principle that they have ever stood for, and abandoning every young people unemployed for more than 12 months has been person in this country. increasing, why on earth do they think it will start The future jobs fund offered a golden opportunity to working now? It is time to adopt a new approach, to 200,000 people, but those full-time jobs will be wasted. ensure that we do not leave hundreds of thousands of They were much needed in communities such as mine. young people behind. Instead, we must give them the The future jobs fund was sowing the seeds of success, skills and the confidence that they need to build a future and it was proving successful to those young people. It for themselves and our economy. was giving young people who had never had a job before a much-needed break in life. They need and 2.54 pm deserve an explanation from the Government. They Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I would like to focus need to know why, immediately after taking office, the on the young people who have lost their jobs. They are Government abolished a great opportunity, perhaps real people, and I welcome this opportunity to discuss one of the last opportunities that they will be given for a on the Floor of the House of Commons the betrayal of long time. those young people. They represent the nation’s future, I am aware of the eight-minute limit on speeches, but they have been bruised, battered and neglected. Mr Deputy Speaker, but at this point a triple whammy They are not needed and not worthy—that is the message comes to mind: the attack on education maintenance the Government are pushing to those people. allowance, the increase in tuition fees, and the cancellation We have a serious problem, in that those young of the future jobs fund. People will not forget, and they people are in danger of becoming the lost generation. are asking now why the attack on young people continues Employment is a major social ingredient in anyone’s and where it will end. The number of unemployed life, and in modern, civilised society. It gives self-esteem young people has risen by 66,000, and the Office for and confidence. It breeds purpose in individuals. It is a Budget Responsibility predicts huge further increases in rung on life’s ladder, which can often be quite cruel. As the not-too-distant future. Everything in the garden is we debate this issue today, we see an increase of 66,000 not rosy for our young people or for our future. Every young people who are unemployed. 100,000 people who are out of work cost the Treasury The constituency statistics in the information from £500 million. We cannot, in any circumstances, return the House of Commons Library show that, in the to the days of the 1980s, when 26% of people were 100 worst-affected constituencies, there are 10 applicants unemployed. for every job vacancy. On average, across all constituencies, In my constituency, there are 14.3 applicants for there are five applicants for every job. In my constituency, every job vacancy. Unemployment in the region stands however, 14.3 people apply for every vacancy. Is it any at 9.6%, and 46% of working women in the northern wonder that our young people, our future generations, region are employed in the public sector. In my constituency, feel so let down and demoralised? They feel utterly the public sector employs 11,000 women—68% of working betrayed by the actions of this Government. Is it any women—and more than 50% of men. How dare any wonder that they are taking to the streets and demonstrating Member say in the House that public sector workers in their tens of thousands in every city against the deserve redundancy before anyone else? We are talking Government’s attack on young people? They are organising about teachers, firemen, policemen, council workers and giving voice to their views. As politicians, we should and cleaners. How dare anyone suggest that their jobs listen to their call for opportunities, for a chance in life, are meaningless because the private sector should rule? for dignity, for decency and for equality. That should be The attack on public services in my constituency will readily recognised by the Government. be unbelievably harsh. The creation of 200,000 jobs through the future jobs fund would have been immensely Sajid Javid: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? valuable. Moreover, 10,000 jobs would have been created in the north-east in the renewable energy, environmental Ian Lavery: No! [Laughter.] Go on, then. I apologise and emerging low-carbon technology sectors, and 15,000 for that. would have been created in social enterprises. That is Sajid Javid: I thank the hon. Gentleman for so graciously much-needed employment. The Government’s action in giving way. There is a lot that hon. Members on different abolishing the future jobs fund is an absolute disgrace: sides of the House can disagree on, but will he acknowledge, it was politically motivated and ideologically driven. perhaps in a bipartisan spirit, that some of the Government’s I will not forget 20 October 2010, when the Chancellor welfare reforms—for example, the introduction of the of the Exchequer announced the loss of 490,000 jobs. I universal credit, the increase in apprenticeships, and the shall not forget the triumphant, jubilant cheers from the move to ensure that people are better off in work than Government Benches. That made me sick to the pit of out of work—are a step in the right direction? my stomach. The people will not forget, and I will not forget. I am pleased to have been able to take part in the Ian Lavery: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his debate, and I support the motion wholeheartedly. intervention. I believe that we should wait to see the details of the universal credit. The devil is often in the detail. 3.3 pm The future jobs fund was abolished within days of the Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): It is a pleasure to election by the Tories. At this stage, I must offer my follow the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery). I personal view that I do not accept that this is a coalition hope that he will understand if I return to some of his Government. It is a full-blooded, blue-blooded Tory more outrageous comments a little later. First, let me Government, propped up by a few desperate Liberal say how pleased I am that we are debating youth 1003 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1004 unemployment: it is a major issue, and it is clear that kicks in—needs more training or help because he is not Members on both sides of the House understand the quite up to the job. At that point they will seriously need to discuss it. consider whether it would be better to lose that employee Before I came to the House, I derived real pleasure immediately, before the rules kick in and cause difficulties from being able to offer someone a job in our company. in future, than to invest more time in him. That is a I also understood the absolute nightmare of having to trade-off governed by excessively burdensome regulation. make someone unemployed in difficult times. I hope Such a restriction is not acceptable, and I am pleased that Members on both sides of the House have approached that the Government are loosening it to provide flexibility the debate with the shared goal of alleviating what are for both employers and employees. [Interruption.] If very difficult circumstances. I also feel, however, that the hon. Member for Preston (Mark Hendrick) wishes the debate should be put into context. It takes place to intervene, all that he need do is ask, rather than against a background of economic failure, a legacy of chuntering from a sedentary position. I should be more banks that were not supporting business, a massive than happy to take his intervention; otherwise I shall decline in manufacturing, and an essentially unbalanced press on. economy. There is, I believe, evidence that we will produce more Governments can take a wide range of measures to long-term sustainable jobs through apprenticeships. What ease the problem of youth unemployment, but in my evidence is there for this? I witnessed the hunger of view nothing is more important than enabling the economy those who wish to work and the appetite for recruitment to grow at a sustainable level so that business can in the private sector when I held a jobs fair in my expand, create those much-needed jobs and, indeed, constituency. It was put together without any cost to the flourish. That is why difficult measures are being taken: state, and we managed to engage with local businesses vital measures to deal with deficit control, and positive and those who were looking for work, either immediately fiscal measures to support investment. We are seeing or in the near future. We brought in the voluntary sector changes in employment law, export support for small too, so that those who wished to keep their CVs active and medium-sized enterprises, and a review of many of and engaged could do so. We brought more than the welfare schemes and benefits out there to encourage 40 companies together after a two-month period. Hundreds people to move from a life of dependence to one of of visitors turned up and companies such as Johnson independence. Matthey offered apprenticeships. That company is running a programme of apprenticeships which is not supported I am therefore somewhat disappointed by the fact by the state but which will offer sustainable, long-term that the debate is focusing almost entirely on the future jobs to some of those who successfully get through. We jobs fund. It was, I am sure, a project born of good had people willing to go to work in the voluntary sector, intentions, and I admit that there are good stories about such is their appetite to keep their CVs active. I admire it from various parts of the country. The fact is, however— them and their hunger. Above all, we should note that this brings me back to the hon. Gentleman’s speech—that at this jobs fair the jobs fundamentally came from the we were creating a large number of temporary jobs, private sector in the local economy, thus keeping local predominantly in the public sector, which did not offer jobs for local people. That is the future, which is why I a sustainable solution to the problem of youth believe that the combination of our enterprise economies, unemployment. I hope, indeed I know, that I speak for our welfare reforms and our support for apprenticeships Government Members when I say that any suggestion will lift us out of this situation and help tackle youth that we were disparaging public sector workers is utterly unemployment. unacceptable. The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, but he has had his say, his say was wrong, and the House 3.11 pm should not accept it. What is wrong, and what we do challenge, is the Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): I am temporary nature of many of those jobs. We intend to grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this important deliver permanent, sustainable jobs, and I believe that debate and to speak in favour of the motion, which is most of them will have to be in the private sector. If far from narrow. It goes much further than simply Members are not willing to take my word for it, as I am criticising the cancellation of the future jobs fund, sure some are not, let me tell them what the Confederation which would have created 200,000 jobs. The motion of British Industry said to the Work and Pensions states clearly our belief Committee. “that the Government’s economic policies have slowed economic growth, raised youth unemployment and created the highest “We are concerned the programme for the most part failed to graduate unemployment for over a decade”. deliver a long-term strategy to tackle youth unemployment. While there are undoubtedly some successes within the programme, the It is in that context that we need to have this debate. As CBI argued there needs to be better business involvement and a Members from all parts of the House have said, youth greater focus on long-term job sustainability with future programmes. unemployment is a significant problem in this country The Work Programme is the way to deliver this.” at this time. Given the economic figures that we are I am surprised that the Opposition have not raised seeing, particularly the most recent growth figures indicating some of the other measures that we have had to consider that the economy is shrinking and the revised figures to help employers take people on. It is beyond question from the Office for Budget Responsibility showing that that employers who feel restricted by the heavy hand of levels of growth are projected to reduce, it is incredibly all the employment legislation that has grown up over important to have this debate. the last decade will think twice not just about employing It is unfortunate that the future jobs fund and people, but about retaining them. They may feel that apprenticeships are being counterposed. The number of someone who has worked for the company for nearly a apprenticeships created by the previous Labour Government year—just before the employment legislation protection has been mentioned, and I would have liked Labour to 1005 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1006

[Katy Clark] have the kinds of poverty that are associated with unemployment. Many of the benefit changes being have done even more on that. I hope that this Government proposed by this Government will disproportionately will set about an ambitious apprenticeships scheme, but affect the unemployed, particularly the long-term we have not seen it yet. I assure the Government that if unemployed. I am thinking of policies such as reducing they do so, they will get the full support of Labour housing benefit for those who are unemployed for Members, because we fully recognise the value of 12 months or more— there are more and more of those apprenticeships in both the public sector and the private people. The number of 18 to 24-year-olds in Scotland sector. claiming jobseeker’s allowance for six months or more My constituency has a strong tradition of public has risen by 119% in the past two years, and the number sector apprenticeships in engineering and in organisations of these people out of work for 12 months or more has such as the Ministry of Defence. Individuals have been risen by 349%. So we face significant challenges. trained in the public sector and have worked in it for a We have heard criticism of the future jobs fund today, number of years, and have then gone on to work in but all the feedback I have received in my constituency, other parts of industry and in the private sector. We both from people using the fund and from those placing want to encourage these apprenticeships and we want people on to it, has been very positive. The motion calls the Government to take this on board. Labour Members for an independent evaluation of the fund. We need that wish to see policies that will develop our industrial and to be done, because the future jobs fund is one of the manufacturing sector, that will support apprenticeships few schemes that is delivering for young people. We and that will do everything possible to create employment need to do everything we can to give young people in the private sector. That is particularly important political priority, so I think it is a tragedy that the in constituencies such as mine, which faces a significant scheme is being cancelled. I call on this Government to problem of unemployment, particularly youth do more. They should not only support the future jobs unemployment. fund, but take other steps to give young people the My part of the world traditionally had a strong future they deserve. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, industrial and manufacturing sector, but those for letting me contribute to this debate. manufacturing jobs have gone over the course of many decades. In the 1970s, 17,000 people were employed by 3.19 pm ICI at Ardeer in my constituency; 7,000 or 8,000 jobs went in the 1980s at the Glengarnock steel mill; and Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): It is good to even when I was at school in the 1980s some 10,000 strike a bipartisan note in our debates, even on an miners worked at the Killoch pit in south Ayrshire. So I Opposition day motion, and I am happy to concur with come from a part of the world that has a strong and what a number of Opposition Members, including the proud industrial past, but which has been devastated. right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill The manufacturing base is now comparatively weak (Mr Byrne), have said about the scourge of youth and we are dependent on the public sector to replace the unemployment and that these are things we cannot wait jobs we had, so the 500,000 public sector jobs cut that to tackle. I am pleased and proud to speak in favour of the Government are proposing will have a disproportionate one of the key clauses in the motion—the bit that says, impact on areas such as mine. “urgent action is now required to stop…young people being lost My constituency has probably the worst youth to worklessness”. unemployment problem in Scotland. The statistics show I think we can all agree on that but I suspect we might that 20% of our young people between the ages of differ on something that I firmly believe—that the change 16 and 24 are receiving benefits, which is the highest of management in this country in May 2010 was an level in Scotland, and that 14.7% of our 18 to 24-year-olds important first step towards doing that. are claiming jobseeker’s allowance. The right hon. Gentleman’s Government left one in So it is very fair to say that the part of the world that five young people out of work. The sharp rise in I represent faces significant challenges, and it is the duty unemployment started in March 2008, but the sad truth of any Government to create policies that address those is that there was double digit unemployment among challenges and create the economic environment that young people according to the standard International will ensure that young people are able to get employment. Labour Organisation measure even in the good years—the There has been a significant increase in the number of years when the Government were borrowing to the hilt young people in my constituency going into further and and spending money like it was going out of fashion. In higher education over the past 20 years, which is to be an earlier intervention, I presented the right hon. Gentleman welcomed. However, further and higher education is with the international comparisons that he declined to not necessarily the best choice for every young person. comment on in detail, but perhaps he will do so later. It may be something to consider at a later stage, but Of course, Government programmes play a part in well-paid employment that gives hope for the future is all this. I do not think that anyone in the House is the best option for some young people. suggesting there should be no Government intervention We have heard tragic stories today of young people on youth unemployment—of course not. However, I who are unable to get jobs, and we know from experience say to the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris that it takes many decades to recover from a period of Ruane), who I am delighted has just returned to the high unemployment. All sorts of social problems are Chamber, that the piece of analysis that he presented associated with high levels of unemployment and youth concerned entirely the wrong question. We should not unemployment, and we spend many hours debating ask whether turning around a young person’s life is how to grapple with those. Such problems include crime, worth £6,500—of course it is. It is worth that and a and drug and alcohol misuse, and they arise when we whole lot more. 1007 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1008

Chris Ruane: Well do it then! Chris Leslie: In the city of Nottingham at this time last year, youth unemployment fell for five months Damian Hinds: The hon. Gentleman displays—I shall continuously, but this year it has been rising. The hon. not go on. Gentleman talks about growth and how central it is, but The important thing to ask is whether that £6,500 is does not he have some doubts that his Government are better spent on the fund or on something else that will not doing quite enough on the growth strategy? Could achieve the same result. It is vital to ask that question at he elaborate on that? any time, but particularly at a time when the Government and the country not only have no money, but have Damian Hinds: I do not have such doubts. I cannot minus money. comment in detail on Nottingham’s figures over the There are examples of the future jobs fund working past few years, but as we have been examining in this well. We have heard about what has been happening in debate, the problem of youth unemployment has not Birmingham and Merseyside and I am sure there are started in the past few months: it has been with us for a many other examples, but we have to examine whether long time and we have a structural issue. it was doing its job properly across the piece. I think I was talking about the buoyancy that is needed in the there were three main problems with the future jobs private sector. That starts with investment because when fund—the future problem, the jobs problem and the there is investment, businesses grow and take on workers, fund problem. For the future, it was not sufficiently including young workers. To encourage investment, we focused on people’s personal development; the jobs need to keep interest rates low. To keep interest rates involved were not the private sector jobs needed to drive low, we need a Government who take the nation’s the recovery; and its funding was simply not the most finances seriously. We also need to ensure that lending is cost-effective way of spending money. Those problems happening, and I am pleased that the Government are are quite apart from the onerous application procedures, taking a very robust approach with the banks on that. which were partly why so many of the jobs were in the Something that we need to work on more, but which public sector. will take some time, is ensuring that British firms are I welcome the new Government’s Work programme, not bogged down in regulation, dead-weight administration which will be more flexible, centred on the individual and an enormously complicated tax system. and, because of the payment by results element, will As well as a buoyant private sector, we need to make result in better value for money. As the Prime Minister sure that we have the right skills to take advantage of said a few hours ago in Prime Minister’s questions, it the opportunities in the market, both generally and has often been asked why we cannot use the money that targeted at specific sectors. When we talk about productivity, will be saved in future and spend it on those interventions we tend to focus on manufacturing, but the service now. That is exactly what the Work programme does. sector now accounts for two thirds of the private sector The expansion of apprenticeships is very welcome. and for much of the productivity gap that we have in Many hon. Members have mentioned that so I shall not relation to other leading nations. Services will continue say any more on it, but I do want to talk about the new to be important in future and we need to build up the enterprise allowance, which seems to be based on the skills base of our young people—not just their craft best features of the Prince’s Trust work mentoring skills but their interpersonal and communication skills. scheme, which I know a little about having formerly It is also right to have a targeted approach—a strategy been a Prince’s Trust business mentor. That fantastic for Great Britain plc. Our record on picking winners is programme gives young people who are starting businesses not unblemished, but we do need a strategy. We will access not only to finance but to support, mentoring never again make T-shirts cheaper than China, but and coaching to help see things through. I am delighted there are sectors in which we can excel. The trick is to that the Government are taking such a programme find sectors in which there is the coincidence of a forward. I hope that we will also see more development high-value, attractive growth market and something of microfinance through community development financial that Britain is uniquely well-placed to take advantage institutions and credit unions once the relevant legislative of, such as advanced manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, reform order is brought through. the creative industries, financial services, higher education Welfare reform is also vital to the whole picture—not and tourism. just the ambition but the intention and the plan to make Let me say a word on tourism, because my background sure that work will always pay in future. Programmes is in the hospitality, leisure and tourism sector. [HON. are only ever a part of all this, and I am glad that my MEMBERS: “Ah!”] I do not know why people are saying hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de “Ah.” That market is in long-term growth and remains Bois) mentioned that we need to broaden the debate. The a great export opportunity for this country. We are most important thing of all for youth unemployment— well-placed to take advantage of that market because of indeed, any unemployment—is the state of the economy our great heritage, our vibrant cities and our beautiful and our ability as a nation to take advantage of countryside. In that regard, I must say, on a local level, opportunities. We need a healthy physical and, just as that I am delighted that the South Downs national park importantly, human infrastructure. will be opening its doors in a few weeks’ time. There are three key elements to any overarching When it comes to tourism at Great Britain plc, the programme, which are interrelated. The first is having a marketing department is very good but I am afraid that buoyant private sector, the second is ensuring that the the human resources department still needs some work. incentives are there to hire and invest in home-grown workers and the third is ensuring that we have the right skills and capabilities across the economy to take advantage Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): This of key growth markets. is about the future jobs fund. 1009 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1010

Damian Hinds: Actually, this is about unemployment I have nothing against Jeremy Kyle personally, but I am and creating a vibrant economy in which people can be in favour of work and the discipline and pride that employed. If the hon. Gentleman reads every clause of come with it, which I used to think the Conservative the motion, he will discover that I am correct. party believed in. In the hospitality sector we find that at entry level, The future jobs fund has worked not just in Bentilee kids who have grown up in this country do not have the but in Abbey Green, and it has attacked a culture of same skill sets as some of their rivals from other countries. worklessness in some tough communities in the city. It It is not just about being able to make the best eggs is important for my city because Stoke-on-Trent is now benedict: it is about having the interpersonal skills I was on an economic journey, which the Labour Government talking about—greeting the customer, making eye contact, were helping. It lost its traditional industries, the pits smiling, offering to help and owning the problem of the and the pots. Mrs Thatcher did for the mining industry, customer. Those are the sorts of skills that we need to globalisation did for the steel industry and mechanisation build up. It is because of some of those gaps that some put tens of thousands out of work in the ceramics trade. employers, sadly, actively prefer to take on young people We are now on a journey of retraining, reskilling, who have not been educated in this country. That is a education and attacking worklessness. The collapse of huge shame. those industries ingrained a culture of worklessness in I am running out of time. I hugely welcome the Work many communities. People still had the idea that they programme, the enterprise allowance and the expansion could go to work in those traditional sectors without in apprenticeships. I equally welcome the review of needing education and training, and when those jobs vocational education and training and the fresh look we went, so too did a culture of workfulness. That filtered are taking at the national curriculum and our commitment down the generations and there was a problem with to improving education and benchmarking it against getting people to work. the very best in the world. I also welcome the fact that The current generation cannot go into the jobs of the Government are getting a grip on immigration, their fathers and forefathers. As the hon. Member for which is related to this, and the radical welfare reform. East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) said, we cannot make Most of all, I welcome the fact that the Government are T-shirts cheaper than China, nor can we make ceramics living up to their responsibilities to eliminate the structural cheaper than China in many instances, or steel. We deficit, to keep interest rates low, to get businesses therefore need to train people and give them skills, but investing and to grow the economy and create jobs. we also need to get them back into a culture of work, and that was partly what the future jobs fund was 3.28 pm about. My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): This and Arran (Katy Clark) explained very well how the is a very important debate, and it is a shame to see the fund got into communities and got people back into the Government Benches so empty, not least because the culture that they needed. number of unemployment claimants in Stoke-on-Trent The real problem with the attack on the future jobs Central was more than 250 higher in January 2011 than fund is that it forms part of a triple whammy attack by in December 2010. The good work done by the Labour the Government on young people. We had the withdrawal Government in stopping unemployment, preventing youth of the education maintenance allowance, which had unemployment and preventing the worst of the recession allowed many people to make the transition to education is being steadily undone. That was the Labour vision— and learning, which is very important in a city such as helping the least well-off through the toughest times. mine. We then had the rank stupidity of the teaching Now we face the morass of a noblesse oblige, laissez-faire budget for universities being slashed by 80%, thereby big society model that will do little for my constituents. imposing a £9,000 charge on tuition fees. We should not Part of the Labour approach was the future jobs think for a minute that not all the good universities in fund, which secured training and work for young people the UK will seek to charge £9,000. That leaves many of and slashed long-term ingrained unemployment. Many us wondering what on earth the Government have of my colleagues have spoken very effectively of how against young people. well the scheme has worked in their constituencies, and When those moves are combined with an economic I can say the same of my constituency and the broader policy of cutting too far and too fast, we see that the north Staffordshire area. The north Staffordshire future Government do not have a policy for growth. They have jobs fund put hundreds of people into work across a policy that looks after the banks and supermarkets Stoke-on-Trent, Newcastle-under-Lyme and Staffordshire but slashes business investment. Moorlands. A good example was to be found at Epic Housing, a Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): housing association in Bentilee in my constituency, a Will the hon. Gentleman give way? tough part of Stoke-on-Trent with ingrained problems of worklessness. Epic looks after 900 homes in the Bentilee area and put 26 people through the scheme, 10 Tristram Hunt: I would be delighted to give way to a of whom now have permanent jobs—six with Bentilee fellow north Staffordshire Member. Environmental Services and Training and four with the parent firm, Epic. Malcolm Burdon, the social enterprise Mr Timpson: Cheshire, actually, but I know we are team leader—something that I believe the Government fairly close to each other. You’llget to know the geography are in favour of—said: fairly soon. “In six months, the lads go from sitting at home watching Jeremy Kyle to getting up in the morning and coming into work. Will the hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to It makes them disciplined.” enlighten us on his party’s policy for growth? 1011 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1012

Tristram Hunt: My party’s policy for growth is to In proposing the motion, the Labour party is creating rebalance the British economy, and to invest in industry, a smokescreen—it is a red herring—to disguise the manufacturing and engineering, which are vital to the many years of failure to tackle youth unemployment. north Staffordshire economy. This Government give One in five young people are out of work, nearly 1 corporation tax cuts to the banks and the supermarkets, million are unemployed, and 600,000 who left education and end initiatives that help investment in science, under the previous Government are yet to find work. manufacturing and engineering. That record of abject failure and that legacy leave little Welfare bills and jobseeker’s allowance accounts are room for the Labour party to lecture the Government being added to by the undermining of the economic who are trying to sort those problems out, having taken recovery and the scrapping of the future jobs fund, on the worst public finances in living memory. which itself imperils the Government’s hopes of paying The future jobs fund was, I am sure, beneficial to down the deficit. The argument about the extraneous some young people, but was it cost-effective and sustainable? cost of the future jobs fund is economic nonsense. My Did it lead to permanent and sustainable employment right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), for our young people? The evidence tells us that it did not. who is no longer in the Chamber, mentioned the great success of the scheme. Government Members like to Dame Anne Begg: As an employer, would the hon. pray my right hon. Friend in aid at every single opportunity, Gentleman employ the person with two weeks’ work but on that point they would do well to listen to him. experience on their CV or the person with six months’ of work? Many of my colleagues wish to explain the success of the future jobs fund in their constituencies, but it would Mr Jones: It is incumbent on the Government to be unfair to leave my speech without a good old-fashioned offer not short-term help but long-term sustainable example of Liberal Democrat hypocrisy. In a letter help for young people. It is important for this Government dated 21 April 2010, the Minister of State, Department to make sure that we create a culture in which our for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury young people are ready for work, not force them into and Yate (Steve Webb), wrote: short-term work to try to prove themselves to employers. “We have no plans to change or reduce existing commitments Our youngsters must be ready for work. to the Future Jobs Fund. We believe that more help is needed for young people, not less.” The evidence tells us that the future jobs fund was twice as expensive as an apprenticeship. In some places, We now know how far those commitments go. particularly Birmingham, only 3% of jobs were in the Liberal Democrats say that they did not know what private sector and in most instances very few permanent the books looked like or what the conditions were, but jobs were created. Most young people, however, are the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and looking for permanent jobs. A grandmother who came Skills spent his life writing about the storm and the to my surgery a few weeks ago wanted her grandson to catastrophe and the crash and all the rest of it, so the have a sustainable, long-term future. situation was not exactly unacknowledged. That talk I would also like to explore the job market and the was either over-egging or dissimulation. culture behind it, which is very important. Throughout The youth unemployment crisis and the future jobs Government policy, we must promote the idea of getting fund policy points to three things: first, a series of our young people into employment and it must be a broken promises, denials and U-turns by this shoddy priority across Departments to reduce the barriers that Tory-led Government; secondly, the fact that they have prevent young people from getting work and take down no policy for growth or job creation, eggs Benedict and the barriers that prevent employers from taking young all; and thirdly, the perils of the Government’s vision of people on, because such barriers do exist. the big society. Labour believes in civil society working We also need to look at aspiration, which is with the state, but the Government believe in the withdrawal acknowledged, particularly by head teachers, as a problem of the state, which will have terrible results in the in my constituency. On a number of recent visits to communities that we represent. schools, I was told that many of their young people have two aspirations: one is to become a footballer and the other is to become a pop star. My lifelong knowledge 3.37 pm of my constituency tells me that during my lifetime we have probably bred three or four people who have Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I welcome the become professional footballers and made a living from opportunity to contribute to this debate on youth the sport. unemployment. As I am sure all hon. Members know, youth unemployment is a huge problem that needs to be Chris Ruane: Name them! tackled. We should try to avoid playing politics on such an issue, but, sadly, the motion serves to make a party Mr Jones: John Curtis, Peter Whittingham, Darren political point. Gradsby, Julian Alsop—there’s four. They have all done The future jobs fund is currently part of the policy, well at varying levels at the professional game. I can tell but the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) that Hunt) seems to think that it is the be-all and end-all, I cannot name anyone who has made it as a pop star. and a utopian solution to the problem of youth That is why I said that we need young people to have unemployment. He does not take into account the fact reasonable and achievable aspiration at all levels, which that it is part of an overall policy to tackle the huge does not seem to be the case at the moment. We have to problem of getting our young people into the labour be honest and recognise that people have different abilities market on a sustainable footing—I emphasise the word and different levels. That is the case in this House and in “sustainable”. the country as a whole. 1013 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1014

[Mr Marcus Jones] young people. At that time, more than a quarter of young people were unemployed. There was a generation We must ensure that those who can become doctors of young people with no jobs, no hope and no future. and those who go into the trades are valued. We must Some of those young people never recovered: some ensure that the work of young people on the checkout committed suicide; some turned to drugs and alcohol; or stacking shelves at Tesco is also valued. We must others ended up with long-term mental health problems. show those young people that they can make it by Even when the economy started to recover, those young working from right at the bottom up towards the top. people who had spent many years unemployed found it One good example of that is Terry Leahy who went incredibly difficult to get a job. Let us be honest: would from stacking shelves at Tesco to become its chief an employer prefer to take a 16-year-old fresh out of executive; he has been very successful in the business school, or a 26-year-old who had spent most of the world. We need to show young people that it is worth previous 10 years out of work with nothing to get up for starting at the bottom of the ladder and working their and nothing to do? The youth co-operative tried to stop way up, which can often be a fulfilling experience. the cycle of despair for unemployed young people, We need to ensure that employers have the right helped them to gain skills and set up their own businesses, culture, particularly for apprentices. As part of national gave them driving lessons and taught them how to use apprenticeship week, I last week visited a fine small computers, built their confidence and gave them a reason business called MES Systems in my constituency. It to get out of bed. Then we were closed by Tory cuts to employs two young apprentices who are doing fantastic the youth service. work; they are both excellent and well rounded young The Labour Government came along and introduced men. They were hindered, however, because the culture the Connexions service—careers advice plus. It provided makes it difficult for employers to give our young straightforward careers advice for young people and a people the necessary leg-up to get out and do things on dedicated service of support for young people not in their own. This company employed two youngsters, as I employment, education or training or those at risk of say, one of whom was perfectly able to fit and maintain becoming NEET. The Government funded other alarm systems under his own steam. Unfortunately, programmes that provided support, training and education however, he still had to go around with an engineer and to young people, including a summer programme for could not go out on his own in his van, as the company 16-year-olds from the New Opportunities Fund. There could not get access to insurance for him because he was an activity agreement, a learning agreement, and was too young. That is the sort of barrier that holds from the working neighbourhoods fund a range of companies back. From what the company told me, I projects, including bespoke projects aimed at the most have no doubt that it could take on more young people vulnerable young people, such as teenage parents and if it had access to that type of facility. young offenders. On the Work programme, I welcome the policies put What happened as a result of that support and such forward by the Minister of State, Department for Work programmes? From 1997 to the start of the global and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for financial crisis, youth unemployment fell by 40%, and Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). The integrated package more than half of young people were off jobseeker’s of support will replace an unclear, confused system that allowance within three months. Now we have a Tory-led lacks accountability. We will reduce the bureaucratic Government, and it is back to the future. All the support burden of the current system, and make it simpler for programmes are being slashed, the Connexions service, young people and employers to understand, increasing future jobs fund and EMA are going, youth services are the number of young people who get into work. It is on the brink of destruction, and youth unemployment important that we do not have a one-size-fits-all policy is at its highest since 1992. What are young people, for such young people. As the hon. Member for Stoke- especially those who need additional support because on-Trent Central and others have mentioned, things are of poverty, disability or low educational attainment, to not as they used to be: sons do not follow their fathers do? How will such young people compete with those down the pit, or into the car factories as used to be the who have more advantage? case in Coventry—[Interruption.] The hon. Member The Government have also cut completely the funding for Bassetlaw (John Mann) comments from a sedentary to v, the national young volunteers service, and vinvolved position, but in my area, which was heavily dependent provided fun, exciting, eye-opening volunteer experiences on manufacturing, thousands of jobs at some of the for young people, and one-to-one, tailored, maintained biggest manufacturing names in this country were lost support. Most of the young people engaged in the on his Government’s watch, so they do not have such a project were experiencing difficult social and economic proud record on that. circumstances. Volunteering enhances young people’s I reject the assertion in the motion about the future employability, gives them the opportunity to gain experience jobs fund, given the gravity of the problems faced by to put on their CVs, and allows them to get references the Government in tackling youth unemployment. Members and develop contacts to help them to get into full-time must work hard and take responsibility, across the work. It also enables them to give back to their communities House, to sort out the problem. I hope the Minister will and, perhaps most importantly of all, gives them confidence elaborate on how that work will be taken forward. and self-respect. The Government’s replacement for it is merely an eight-week summer programme for 16-year-olds. 3.46 pm On Sunday I had the honour of presenting the volunteer of the year award for Greater Manchester to Matthew, Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I want to speak a 21-year-old from Bolton. Matthew has multiple disabilities, about the support needs of unemployed young people. had no confidence and was doing nothing. His Connexions In the 1980s and ‘90s, I spent 10 years as a youth adviser referred him to get involved in vinvolved. He worker in a youth co-operative project for unemployed was offered a number of volunteering opportunities, 1015 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1016 which he took up. When his support worker visited him Young people are always the victim of recessions; a few weeks later, she did not recognise him. He has they are always the least able to cope. That is true continued to volunteer and is now training as a coach around the world now: in both wealthy nations and for disabled football. Matthew is on the road to getting a developing countries, young people are the victims of full-time job. He would not be if it were not for vinvolved. the recent global economic crash. It was true in 1992 as Most young people from advantaged backgrounds well, which was a recession I remember only too well. will achieve the transition to work easily, but those from We live in a changing world. It is no longer possible difficult backgrounds often find it less simple. Youth to be like my dad and fail at education but succeed in unemployment cannot be solved overnight. Therefore the world of work. We have a different economy, where we must provide support, not only in jobs but in positive skills are necessary not just for well-paid jobs but for all activity and action so that our current generation of jobs. That will continue in the future; our place in the young people will survive, have hope and have a future. global market has changed and we must recognise what that means for young people. 3.50 pm The existing culture of worklessness that other Members Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and have mentioned and which my neighbour, my right hon. Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): Scrapping the future jobs Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), has fund is a false economy for this country, because in done so much to research and question, arose from the saving a relatively modest sum in the short term the failure in the 1980s to plan for change. Because we Government are recklessly running up much greater failed to plan then for better employment, we have an costs for society in the long term. Those greater costs entrenched culture of worklessness. I hope that Ministers will come from poor mental and physical health, to in this Government will not make the same mistake. I which persistent worklessness is linked, and which will have certainly seen their commitment and I hope they have a long-term impact on the NHS and other social will build on it by changing course. services. There will also be greater costs for the economy. To make sure that young people, especially those on A whole generation of people will be unskilled and Merseyside and those I represent in Wirral, do not pay unequipped for work. That will be a much greater cost the price of the crash, the Government should slow for the economy because if we do not provide these down the cuts, and invest to save. We shall not fix the young people with the right skills and experience during deficit by forcing young people to remain on the dole. the downturn, we will lack the human capital to take The Government must rethink their plans for work advantage of the recovery down the line. experience schemes that bear too many of the hallmarks The future jobs fund was a serious response to the of the short-termism of YTS in favour of real jobs in crisis of joblessness. At its heart was the guarantee of the voluntary and social sector. We can support that paid work for those who have been unemployed for sector, which means so much to us, by investing in such more than six months. Underpinning it was the economic jobs, as the future jobs fund was doing. That is the rationale that investment in jobs now would prevent a lesson the Government need to learn. It is not by repeat of the lost generation of the 1980s. I was amused pandering to hard-line calls for cuts that we shall fix the earlier today to hear the Prime Minister describe the deficit, but by investing in young people for the future. Work programme as the biggest back-to-work programme 3.56 pm since the 1930s. That is not much of an achievement, Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): We have had a because there were no back-to-work programmes worth good debate. From both sides of the House we have the name in the 1930s. heard mounting alarm about the youth unemployment The analogy with the 1930s does hold in the following crisis that is battering every community in the land, not respect however. In the 1930s we had a Tory-led coalition least, as we heard, those in Thurrock, Cardiff Central, presiding over mass unemployment. The unemployed Enfield North, East Hampshire and Nuneaton. We were concentrated in the same areas that face the biggest learned today that the number of unemployed young challenges in creating jobs now. When the unemployed people has risen again and is perilously close to 1 million. marched to London from Jarrow and elsewhere, the The rate of unemployment among 16 to 24-year-olds, Government told them, “Sorry, but we can’t help you as which came down in response to Government initiatives the financial markets won’t wear it.” Does that sound from the summer of 2009, rose sharply at the end of last familiar? year to the highest rate ever recorded. My hon. Friend The FJF was a creative response to a crisis of youth the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) joblessness. Its abolition is to be regretted for a number is right to underline the fact that the rate of unemployed of reasons. It is a tragedy for young people in my new graduates is 20%. Not only is employment falling; constituency, which has 13 people chasing every vacancy young people are being deterred from education. My according to the most recent figures, and it is a tragedy hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) for the country. Unless we invest now in these young was right; for young people, this is a perfect storm. people, we will not be able to reap the benefits of the The Government should heed the warning, for example recovery which will flow at some stage down the line. from Brendan Barber, that there Investment is necessary now. Not investing in these “is a real danger of losing another generation of young people”. young people is a false economy. That warning is coming not just from Labour and the 3.54 pm trade unions. David Blanchflower, professor of economics at Dartford college, New Hampshire, formerly of the Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I will be very Monetary Policy Committee puts it thus: brief, because many Members on both sides of the “Our labour market problem is primarily a youth problem…The House have contributed to the debate and have made data shows that the coalition has sent the youth labour market excellent points. back into crisis.” 1017 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1018

[Stephen Timms] hoped, would be in work by the end of March. We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Ministers should certainly listen to the Recruitment and Central (Tristram Hunt) about 26 people being placed Employment Confederation. In the foreword to its report, in work through Epic housing association. There is a “Avoiding a lost generation”, the chief executive wrote: raft of achievements around the country, brightening “These young people risk becoming a ‘lost generation’ unless the prospects of young people for the future. action is taken by all those with a role to play.” The problem of youth unemployment is particularly The REC calls for a series of specific measures from serious at present because there is such a large cohort of Government and others. The message is consistent. The young people. The size of that cohort will decrease over Government need to act, but action from this Government the next few years, so there is a strong case for the future is what we are missing. jobs fund or something very like it, at least in the next few years. The Minister may not need to announce a What about the prospects for the coming months? We long-term initiative, but she needs to grasp the scale of are at the start of a massive cull of public sector jobs. the problem in the short term and come up with proposals The Office for Budget Responsibility says that more to tackle it. than 400,000 of them will be lost over five years. Others say it will be worse. The OBR told us that in the current It was the Churches report, “Unemployment and the financial year 5,000 jobs would be lost, but the Chartered Future of Work”, that made the case 14 years ago that Institute of Personnel and Development said the figure it was wrong in as prosperous a society as ours for large would be nearer 50,000—10 times as many. We see from numbers of people to be deprived for long periods of figures published this morning that the CIPD was right: the chance to earn a living. More than 250,000 of the 60,000 public sector jobs lost in six months. young people currently out of work have been unemployed for more than a year. As we saw in the 1980s and in the What about the coming year? The OBR says that early 1990s, long-term youth unemployment does untold 40,000 jobs will go, but the Conservative-led Local long-term damage. We cannot afford the Government Government Association says that local authorities alone doing what those previous Governments did—abandoning will shed more than 100,000 jobs next year. The OBR yet another generation of young people. Young people seems to have failed to grasp the magnitude of what is do not need warm words or sympathy. They need going to happen. action, and the time for action is now. There is no sign at all of the boom in private sector jobs that the Government promised to take up the 4.3 pm slack. The Office for National Statistics spelled it out this morning. Growth in private sector jobs in the past The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work quarter was nil. Nothing. Zero. With the Government, and Pensions (Maria Miller): I thank Opposition Members as Richard Lambert pointed out, having no growth for giving us the chance today to debate the record of strategy, we will not see a private sector job resurgence the previous Labour Government. It has been a lively any time soon. debate, which is perhaps unsurprising, given that the record of Labour is so fresh and bears the fingerprints We wish the Work programme well, but if there is no of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill work, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Mr Byrne), who opened the debate for the Opposition. said, it is not going to work. Now, in an extraordinary I shall deal first with his contribution, which was a about-turn on the promises that Ministers have made master-class in the selective use of statistics. about the Work programme, it turns out that it will help Let me clear up one or two of the right hon. Gentleman’s far fewer people than the programme that it is replacing. statements. He asserted that redundancies are going up. The scorecard published today by the think tank Reform In fact, redundancies are unchanged in the past quarter, sums up the position. For the Department, the DWP, it at 145,000—less than half the level during the recession— is a case of and the number of people on JSA is 20,000 lower than “promising too much and delivering too little”. at the election. The number of unfilled vacancies has The Government have scrapped the future jobs fund, risen by 40,000 this quarter to 500,000—the sorts of new which has been the focus of the debate. People in jobs that can make a real difference in people’s lives. Jobcentre Plus echo what we have heard in the debate. The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) Those in my area say that FJF was clearly a success, called for action, and that is what we as a coalition with up to half of those who were placed in jobs being Government are delivering. The Government are kept on by their employers after their six-month placement determined to make a difference to the lives of young ended, with still others going on to other jobs with the people, which means tackling the root causes of benefit of great experience on their CV. We heard from unemployment, not just dealing with the symptoms. several Members in the debate about the achievements That is why we are supporting a host of new measures, of the fund. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral including work clubs, Work Together, enterprise clubs South (Alison McGovern) mentioned people placed and the new enterprise allowance, to help unemployed with Age Concern Wirral supporting voluntary sector people move off benefits and into self-employment. capacity building. We are getting the Prince’s Trust into jobcentres so My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie that we can help build volunteering partnerships. That Hilling) was right to underline the importance of is why, for young people in particular, we are developing volunteering as a route back into work. My hon. Friend a far more flexible back-to-work model that gives Jobcentre the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) paid Plus managers the freedom to work with them and help tribute to Ali Thomas and her work at Rhyl city strategy. them get the support that in the past has been lacking. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Michael We are also launching a new work experience programme Dugher) spoke about 200 young people whom, it was to get young people into the habits of work, with two to 1019 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1020 eight-week placements targeting hard-to-help groups. Members were trying to bring out—is the role of the We are putting 18 to 24-year-olds who have not succeeded future jobs fund. We heard an impassioned speech from in finding a job after nine months into the Work programme, the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), who with early entry for the most disadvantaged. made sure that the House listened to his contribution, We have heard a host of contributions today and I but I must set one or two of his facts straight. He would like to pick up on one or two of the themes that asserted many points in his contribution, some of which have been mentioned. The hon. Member for Barnsley have already been refuted by colleagues. Just to make East (Michael Dugher) made an important contribution sure that he is clear, the coalition Government did not when he said that jobs play a pivotal role in our lives, abolish the future jobs fund; 75,000 people have started and I wholeheartedly agree. He will therefore be as on a future jobs fund job, and that figure will rise to angry as we on this side of the House are that youth more than 100,000 in the coming weeks. We have honoured unemployment grew by 270,000 under Labour’s all future jobs fund commitments. I hope that reassures stewardship. I hope he can support the programmes that the hon. Gentleman: we will make sure that young the Government have put forward to address the issues. people in his constituency continue to receive the support to which he referred. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Will the Minister The hon. Members for Stoke-on-Trent Central give way? (Tristram Hunt) and for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) raised a number of issues, particularly on Maria Miller: I will not, if the hon. Lady will forgive the importance of inter-generational worklessness— me, because we are very short of time. something that Government Members feel was not tackled My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie properly under 13 years of Labour. On the importance Doyle-Price) talked about the importance of employability, of re-establishing the culture of work, I am sure that which did not always come through in Opposition their constituents would not support a scheme—the Members’ contributions. She outlined the importance future jobs fund—that leaves half the young people of recognising the need to localise support for young whom it was designed to support on benefits seven months people and, in particular, to involve local employers in after they started on it. That is not the sort of success imaginative thinking to try to unlock the potential of that anybody would like to see for young people today. our youth. That theme was echoed by my hon. Friends My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) the Members for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) and for could not have put it better: it feels today as if Labour East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), both of whom bring has been trying to create a smokescreen to hide its true important experience to the debate as employers. My record of failure. Today, we have heard again about hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North talked about Labour’s legacy of failure: a failure to tackle the root the importance of permanent and sustainable jobs and causes of youth unemployment, with the number of about Labour’s failure to deliver a long-term, sustainable people in youth unemployment when they left office strategy for youth unemployment. By focusing on that 270,000 higher than when they entered, and a legacy broader element of the debate, he brought in the perspective that they tried to fix with a catalogue of short-termist of the employer. schemes that seemed to owe more to managing My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire unemployment figures and creating headlines than to talked about the productivity gap that we see all too trying to provide for the long-term futures of the young often in the market, a skills gap that the previous people whom we represent. Government simply did not address, and the importance Let us be clear: the future jobs fund has not delivered, of education in ensuring that young people are skilled and it does not deliver the long-term opportunities that up for the future job market. My hon. Friend the we, as constituency Members, want. The undeniable Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) made an fact is that about half of those who went into the future important point in the debate, as did Opposition Members jobs fund were back in the unemployment queues seven later, about the importance of ensuring that the most months later. The right hon. Member for East Ham vulnerable get the support they need to get into employment. called for action, and that is exactly what the coalition I can assure her that, through my work as the Minister Government are delivering. In contrast to Labour, we with responsibility for disabled people, and by pressing are focusing on long-term skills. forward with Work Choice, we will ensure that the Work programme is supplemented by particularly specialist support in that area. Sheila Gilmore: Is it not the case that youth unemployment fell below 700,000 only at the very end The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran of the period 1992 to 1997? It did not rise above 700,000 (Katy Clark), who is no longer in her place, made some again until 2007, when the recession came. So, if we are important points on apprenticeships. Indeed, I think comparing records, will the hon. Lady please get the she said that she would have liked her party to have record straight? gone further on apprenticeships. I can assure her that where Labour did not go, we will go. I hope that she will Maria Miller: I will absolutely get the record straight support us in that. for the hon. Lady. It is very simple. She may give the Albert Owen: Will the Minister give way? House a lot of stats, but I will give one stat back to her: 270,000 more young people on unemployment benefits Maria Miller: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, at the end of Labour’s 13 years in government than at I will not give way, because we have a lot to get through. the start. That is the fact that matters. It is important to use apprenticeships in the public In contrast— sector to transfer skills into the private sector. At the heart of the debate—this is the point that Labour Chris Ruane: Will the Minister give way? 1021 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1022

Maria Miller: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn I will not, because I have two minutes in which to finish. Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Long, Naomi Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Caroline In contrast, we are focusing on long-term skills and Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian sustainable jobs for young people—a real future for the Dowd, Jim MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan people whom we represent. There will be 50,000 extra Doyle, Gemma MacShane, rh Mr Denis apprenticeships this year, at about half the cost of Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona future jobs fund placements, and we will deliver skills Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid that will last a lifetime. The Work programme will Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana provide personalised support that has never been seen Eagle, Maria Mann, John before in this country—caring for the individual and Efford, Clive Marsden, Mr Gordon caring for individual needs. Elliott, Julie McCabe, Steve There will be work experience opportunities for young Ellman, Mrs Louise McCann, Mr Michael Engel, Natascha McCarthy, Kerry people and voluntary opportunities that make the difference, Evans, Chris McClymont, Gregg with people getting that first step on the employment Farrelly, Paul McCrea, Dr William ladder and that first job. There will also be a new Field, rh Mr Frank McDonagh, Siobhain universal credit that supports young people into work Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, Dr Alasdair and does not trap them in a lifetime of welfare dependency Flello, Robert McDonnell, John and underachievement. Flynn, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Labour spent £4 billion on its new deal projects, Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Alison much of which was aimed at young people, but we saw Francis, Dr Hywel McGuire, rh Mrs Anne unemployment among young people going up. That is a Gardiner, Barry McKechin, Ann national disgrace. The real change is happening right Gilmore, Sheila McKinnell, Catherine Glindon, Mrs Mary Michael, rh Alun now. We are not wasting any time. We are giving the Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh David young people of Britain the support that they need to Goodman, Helen Miliband, rh Edward reach their potential and to get the experience and Greatrex, Tom Miller, Andrew training that they need for long-term job opportunities. Green, Kate Moon, Mrs Madeleine We are going to set people up for life with the skills that Greenwood, Lilian Morden, Jessica they need. Griffith, Nia Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) This is not the time to turn back to Labour’s failed Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. policies of the past 13 years. I urge hon. Members Hain, rh Mr Peter (Easington) across the House to reject the Opposition motion and Hamilton, Mr David Munn, Meg Hamilton, Fabian Murphy, rh Mr Jim to support a more positive future for Britain. Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Question put. Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian The House divided: Ayes 237, Noes 317. Havard, Mr Dai Nash, Pamela Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Division No. 209] [4.14 pm Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Hermon, Lady Osborne, Sandra AYES Heyes, David Owen, Albert Abbott, Ms Diane Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Abrahams, Debbie Cairns, David Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Campbell, Mr Alan Hodge, rh Margaret Phillipson, Bridget Alexander, Heidi Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen Ali, Rushanara Caton, Martin Hoey, Kate Qureshi, Yasmin Austin, Ian Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hood, Mr Jim Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bailey, Mr Adrian Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Bain, Mr William Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Rachel Balls, rh Ed Coaker, Vernon Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Banks, Gordon Coffey, Ann Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Barron, rh Mr Kevin Connarty, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Bayley, Hugh Cooper, Rosie Jackson, Glenda Robertson, Angus Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, rh Yvette James, Mrs Siân C. Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Begg, Dame Anne Corbyn, Jeremy Jamieson, Cathy Rotheram, Steve Benn, rh Hilary Crausby, Mr David Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay Benton, Mr Joe Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Berger, Luciana Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Joan Betts, Mr Clive Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Shannon, Jim Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Sharma, Mr Virendra Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheerman, Mr Barry Blunkett, rh Mr David Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Sheridan, Jim Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Shuker, Gavin Brennan, Kevin Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq Simpson, David Brown, rh Mr Nicholas David, Mr Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Singh, Mr Marsha Brown, Mr Russell Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Bryant, Chris De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Buck, Ms Karen Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burden, Richard Dobson, rh Frank Lloyd, Tony Smith, Angela 1023 Youth Unemployment16 FEBRUARY 2011 Youth Unemployment 1024

Smith, Nick Watson, Mr Tom Gauke, Mr David Latham, Pauline Smith, Owen Weir, Mr Mike George, Andrew Laws, rh Mr David Soulsby, Sir Peter Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Gibb, Mr Nick Lee, Jessica Spellar, rh Mr John Whitehead, Dr Alan Gilbert, Stephen Lee, Dr Phillip Straw, rh Mr Jack Wicks, rh Malcolm Glen, John Leech, Mr John Stringer, Graham Williams, Hywel Goldsmith, Zac Lefroy, Jeremy Stuart, Ms Gisela Williamson, Chris Goodwill, Mr Robert Leslie, Charlotte Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wilson, Phil Gove, rh Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Tami, Mark Winnick, Mr David Graham, Richard Lewis, Brandon Thomas, Mr Gareth Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Grant, Mrs Helen Lewis, Dr Julian Thornberry, Emily Wishart, Pete Gray, Mr James Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Timms, rh Stephen Wood, Mike Grayling, rh Chris Lilley, rh Mr Peter Green, Damian Lloyd, Stephen Trickett, Jon Woodcock, John Turner, Karl Greening, Justine Lopresti, Jack Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Twigg, Derek Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lord, Jonathan Wright, Mr Iain Twigg, Stephen Griffiths, Andrew Loughton, Tim Vaz, rh Keith Tellers for the Ayes: Gummer, Ben Luff, Peter Vaz, Valerie Mr David Anderson and Gyimah, Mr Sam Lumley, Karen Walley, Joan Mark Hendrick Hague, rh Mr William Main, Mrs Anne Halfon, Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis NOES Hames, Duncan Maynard, Paul Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Jason Adams, Nigel Cash, Mr William Hammond, Stephen McCartney, Karl Afriyie, Adam Chishti, Rehman Hancock, Matthew McIntosh, Miss Anne Aldous, Peter Chope, Mr Christopher Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther Amess, Mr David Clappison, Mr James Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark Andrew, Stuart Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark Mercer, Patrick Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Baker, Norman Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Baker, Steve Collins, Damian Harvey, Nick Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Baldry, Tony Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Baldwin, Harriett Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Barclay, Stephen Crabb, Stephen Heald, Mr Oliver Morgan, Nicky Barker, Gregory Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Barwell, Gavin Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Beith, rh Sir Alan Davey, Mr Edward Hemming, John Morris, James Benyon, Richard Davies, Glyn Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, Philip Hendry, Charles Mowat, David Berry, Jake Davis, rh Mr David Herbert, rh Nick Mulholland, Greg Bingham, Andrew de Bois, Nick Hinds, Damian Mundell, rh David Binley, Mr Brian Dinenage, Caroline Hoban, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa Birtwistle, Gordon Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hollingbery, George Murray, Sheryll Blackman, Bob Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Murrison, Dr Andrew Blackwood, Nicola Dorries, Nadine Holloway, Mr Adam Neill, Robert Blunt, Mr Crispin Doyle-Price, Jackie Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Boles, Nick Drax, Richard Horwood, Martin Newton, Sarah Bone, Mr Peter Duddridge, James Howarth, Mr Gerald Nokes, Caroline Bradley, Karen Duncan, rh Mr Alan Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Brady, Mr Graham Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hughes, rh Simon O’Brien, Mr Stephen Brake, Tom Dunne, Mr Philip Huhne, rh Chris Offord, Mr Matthew Bray, Angie Ellis, Michael Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Brazier, Mr Julian Ellison, Jane Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy Bridgen, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hurd, Mr Nick Paice, rh Mr James Brine, Mr Steve Elphicke, Charlie Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Brokenshire, James Eustice, George James, Margot Patel, Priti Brooke, Annette Evans, Graham Javid, Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Browne, Mr Jeremy Evans, Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pawsey, Mark Bruce, Fiona Evennett, Mr David Johnson, Gareth Penning, Mike Bruce, rh Malcolm Fabricant, Michael Johnson, Joseph Penrose, John Buckland, Mr Robert Farron, Tim Jones, Andrew Percy, Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Featherstone, Lynne Jones, Mr David Phillips, Stephen Burns, Conor Field, Mr Mark Jones, Mr Marcus Pickles, rh Mr Eric Burns, rh Mr Simon Foster, rh Mr Don Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, Christopher Burstow, Paul Fox,rhDrLiam Kelly, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Burt, Alistair Francois, rh Mr Mark Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Burt, Lorely Freeman, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Byles, Dan Freer, Mike Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John Cable, rh Vince Fullbrook, Lorraine Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Cairns, Alun Fuller, Richard Lamb, Norman Rees-Mogg, Jacob Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gale, Mr Roger Lancaster, Mark Reevell, Simon Carswell, Mr Douglas Garnier, Mr Edward Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan 1025 Youth Unemployment 16 FEBRUARY 2011 1026

Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Thurso, John Military Covenant Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward Robertson, Hugh Tomlinson, Justin Robertson, Mr Laurence Tredinnick, David Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call Rogerson, Dan Truss, Elizabeth the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) Rudd, Amber Turner, Mr Andrew to move the motion, I should emphasise that a large Russell, Bob Uppal, Paul number of Members wish to speak in this debate, which Rutley, David Vaizey, Mr Edward is why a six-minute limit has been put on Back-Bench Sanders, Mr Adrian Vara, Mr Shailesh speeches. May I also ask for restraint from Front Benchers, Sandys, Laura Vickers, Martin so as to enable as many Back Benchers to speak as Scott, Mr Lee Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa possible? Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles Sharma, Alok Walker, Mr Robin 4.29 pm Shelbrooke, Alec Wallace, Mr Ben Shepherd, Mr Richard Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): I beg to Walter, Mr Robert Simmonds, Mark move, Ward, Mr David Simpson, Mr Keith That this House supports establishing in law the definition of Watkinson, Angela Skidmore, Chris the Military Covenant, in so doing fulfilling the Prime Minister’s Smith, Miss Chloe Weatherley, Mike pledge of 25 June 2010 to have ‘a new Military Covenant that’s Smith, Henry Webb, Steve written into the law of the land’; believes that this commitment Smith, Julian Wharton, James should not be diluted or sidestepped; and further supports service Soames, Nicholas Wheeler, Heather charities’ and families’ calls for a legally-binding Military Covenant Soubry, Anna White, Chris which defines the principles that should guide Government action Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wiggin, Bill on all aspects of defence policy. Spencer, Mr Mark Willetts, rh Mr David I start by adding my condolences to those properly Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Roger offered by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Stevenson, John Williams, Stephen Opposition earlier today to the families of Private Lewis Stewart, Bob Williamson, Gavin Hendry from 3rd Battalion the Parachute Regiment, Stewart, Iain Willott, Jenny Private Conrad Lewis from 4th Battalion the Parachute Streeter, Mr Gary Wilson, Mr Rob Regiment and Lance Corporal Kyle Marshall from Stride, Mel Wollaston, Dr Sarah Stunell, Andrew 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment. They will be Wright, Simon loved for ever by their families, and I hope that they will Sturdy, Julian Yeo, Mr Tim Swales, Ian be permanently honoured by our nation. Young, rh Sir George Swayne, Mr Desmond Zahawi, Nadhim The motion before us has a straightforward purpose. Swinson, Jo It aims to fulfil the Conservative party’s pledge to Swire, rh Mr Hugo Tellers for the Noes: introduce a new military covenant that is written into Syms, Mr Robert Mark Hunter and the law of the land. It will properly fulfil the Conservatives’ Teather, Sarah Jeremy Wright manifesto pledge to establish a tri-service military covenant. It aims to address the concerns articulated by the Royal Question accordingly negatived. British Legion and other service charities, and to set out in law the definition of the covenant so that there can be Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I now have to a legal basis for the principles that the Government announce the results of Divisions deferred from a previous must uphold in order to provide the forces community day. On the Question relating to immigration, the Ayes with the highest level of care and support. Inexplicably, were 474 and the Noes were 23, so the Ayes have it. the Government have already voted against an amendment On the Question relating to the terrorist finance in the Armed Forces Bill Committee that would have tracking programme, the Ayes were 484 and the Noes fulfilled the aims of today’s motion. were 5, so the Ayes have it. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Does the right hon. [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s Gentleman agree that the points that he is about to raise debates.] were debated in detail in that Committee, and that clause 2 of the Bill bears the words “armed forces covenant”?

Mr Murphy: The clause contains the words “armed forces covenant report”. The hon. Gentleman discussed these points in Committee, and I will expand on them a little later.

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving give way, because I am keen to interrupt him at the beginning of his interesting speech. We are grateful for his support for our proposal to bring the military covenant into law. If he casts his mind back over the past 13 years, can he remember any occasion on which Labour either put a proposal to do that in its manifesto or committed itself in any way, shape or form to putting any kind of military covenant into law? 1027 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1028

Mr Murphy: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Would that his keen sense of anticipation for my interesting speech. be the same Colonel Stuart Tootal who resigned his I have already said that, on reflection, we should have position as commanding officer of the Paras in disgust gone further towards taking the covenant out of the cut at the way in which his soldiers had been treated under and thrust of party politics—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] I the Labour Government? hope that all those on the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Benches who are now chiding us for not Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman knows that not to having done that will have the courage of their convictions be the case. Stuart Tootal made his position very clear and take this opportunity to vote for their manifesto at the weekend. commitment later this evening. I do not doubt the sincerity of Ministers’ words. I Many Members, of all parties, and most people in the have made that plain at each and every turn when I have country will be hoping that the Secretary of State will spoken from the Dispatch Box. However, there is real use today’s debate as an opportunity to reconsider the confusion and concern about their actions. The reason Government’s policy. This debate is important because for the growing anger is that they know that the the covenant is the unspoken contract between the Government’s actions are sometimes enormously unfair, nation and our services that guides us to serve with the and, in the case of defining the covenant in law, utterly utmost respect those who serve our country with confused. incomparable courage. As our country continues to Let me explain why I think that the Government’s change, those values should remain constant. There is a position is flawed. In the Armed Forces Bill, the tangible feeling up and down the country that that Government have provided for an annual report on the moral bond between the nation and the forces should covenant, explicitly using the term “covenant”. However, be strengthened. Ministers are choosing to overlook the fact that there is I want to make it clear from the outset that any no legally binding definition of the term to accompany criticism that I offer today is not mine alone. The Army its use, which means that Ministers can themselves Families Federation received 2,000 complaints about determine how it is interpreted. the Government’s cuts from its members by e-mail in five days, many of which expressed real concern. The Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): director general of the Royal British Legion, Chris In his evidence to the Public Accounts Committee last Simpkins, has said of the Government’s defence of their month, the most senior official in the Treasury, Sir Nick Armed Forces Bill: Macpherson, said that “The Legion is concerned that this looks like the beginnings of “there was a point in the middle of the last decade where the a Government U-turn.” MOD lost control of public spending.” In truth, if the Government fail to back today’s motion, Can the Minister explain what impact that has had on that U-turn will be complete. Vice-Admiral Sir Michael the military covenant? Moore, the chairman of the Forces Pension Society, has described the Government’s plan for the covenant as Mr Murphy: At the same time the hon. Gentleman’s “incredibly wet and feeble”, stating: party was demanding more spending on the Army, “It is flute music and arm waving. There is nothing of any more spending on the Navy, more spending on the substance, with just a couple of no-cost ideas”. Royal Air Force, more aeroplanes and more ships. When there was real concern about funding, his party Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): was demanding ever more spending. He cannot be in Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? denial about that. I would rather rely on the evidence of one of the hon. Mr Murphy: Bearing your stricture in mind again, Gentleman’s own Ministers in the debate on the Armed Mr Deputy Speaker, of course I will. Forces Bill. He was very clear, and the Secretary of State must be clear as well in terms of meaningful Andrew Bridgen: Does the right hon. Gentleman not commitment. The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, accept that for almost three years the last Labour the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire Government were in complete denial about the adequacy (Mr Robathan), the veterans Minister, said that the of Snatch Land Rovers to protect our troops in Helmand? Government had no intention of placing in law a legal Does that not constitute a breach of the military covenant? definition of a covenant.

Mr Murphy: We massively increased the number of Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Does the right hon. armoured vehicles going to Afghanistan, and that was Gentleman agree that the sense of responsibility enshrined the right thing to do. in a military covenant must also reflect care for service communities that are threatened with base closures? The former commander of the Parachute Regiment Does he agree that lessons could be learned from the in Afghanistan, Colonel Stuart Tootal, said at the weekend: United States, where there is a “transparent” commission “There is a real fragility of morale in the Armed Forces at the which considers base realignment and closure, and an moment.” Office of Economic Adjustment, which gives substantial It is regrettable that a Government so young should funds and support to closure-hit communities? find themselves in a position so undesirable. That is of concern to Members in all parts of the House. These Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman knows, as I think are real issues, which demand a more serious response everyone in Scotland knows, that we do not agree on than Ministers have given in the past few days and everything when it comes to the armed forces, but he weeks. makes an important point about the impact on wider 1029 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1030

[Mr Jim Murphy] Mr Murphy: The fact is that I am remarkably proud of much of what my Government did in office in societies and communities of any base closures. During support of the armed forces: we produced the service the last two years or so of the Labour Government, we personnel Command Paper and the first ever cross- considered the future of the firing range in the Western government strategy; we made improvements for Isles, and it was not until we had received a full impact dependants waiting on NHS waiting lists; we provided assessment of the impact on the community and the support for and investment in the NHS; we ensured fragile economy of the islands that it was decided to better treatment in the allocation of public housing; halt the closure. and basic pay went up in line with recommendations of In Committee, the veterans Minister said: the independent Armed Forces Pay Review Body in full “The covenant is a conceptual thing that will not be laid down for 11 years in a row. That is a remarkable set of in law.”––[Official Report, Armed Forces Public Bill Committee, investments, of which I am rightly proud. 10 February 2011; c. 21.] The whole country will be simultaneously grateful to Charlie Elphicke rose— the Minister and disappointed that he has made the Government’s position clear. It seems that the Government’s Mr Murphy: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, main line of defence is to attack a non-existent threat. but I do hope that he will at least seek to make the No one is arguing for a set of justiciable rights. No one argument against our motion. really wants to campaign for such a thing. The forces charities themselves said that they wanted Charlie Elphicke: I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s the principles defined in law—they did not want new desire to take a Maoist year zero approach to all this. statutory rights—and that is what our motion sets out Leaving aside the obvious exercise in shamelessness, he to achieve. In answer to the hon. Member for Colchester nevertheless left a £38 billion black hole in the MOD, (Bob Russell) in the Select Committee that considered which has made it much harder to look after our troops the Bill, the Royal British Legion’s director general said: in the future. “I understand the point about rigidity, specific definition and a detailed Covenant being included in law. I am not making that Mr Murphy: I know that for the hon. Gentleman’s point at all. What I am saying is that the principles of which a Covenant should take account should be clearly stated and party it is always someone else’s fault. The sacking of understood.” soldiers by e-mail was the Army’s fault, then it was the civil servants’ fault and by the end of the day it was the Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): Labour Government’s fault. The Prime Minister’s pledge was not made before the election in the heat of a campaign, but after it. In June Stephen Barclay rose— last year, he said that the Government would have “a new Military Covenant that’s written into the law of the land”. Mr Murphy: I give way again, but I hope that at least Given the clarity of that pledge, will my right hon. one Conservative Member will say whether they are Friend care to speculate as to why the Government going to vote to detail the principles involved in a would not fulfil that commitment? definition of the military covenant.

Mr Murphy: That is probably going to be the hardest Stephen Barclay: The right hon. Gentleman suggested question I am asked all day. Just why have the Government that Conservative Members were pointing the finger U-turned on this issue, given that it was not a pre-election elsewhere. Does he not agree with his parliamentary promise, but a post-election commitment? It is for the colleague, the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Secretary of State and his Ministers to articulate the Hodge), who, as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, reasons for their Government’s action. agreed with the following finding: I come back to the point about principle rather than “The Department has failed to develop a financial strategy statutory obligations. identifying core spending priorities”? The report in question also said: Stephen Barclay rose— “The Department’s poor financial management has led to Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con) rose— a…shortfall of…£36 billion”. Does he agree with his parliamentary colleague? Why Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con) rose— was the military covenant not part of his Government’s core spending priorities? Mr Murphy: I have a choice. I have already given way to the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman is confused. The (Stephen Barclay), so I shall give way to the hon. fact is that his party was demanding ever more spending Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke). on the armed forces in the midst of the recession and the financial crisis. Alec Shelbrooke: The right hon. Gentleman is talking about what happened in the past. Will he take the opportunity to apologise on behalf of the previous Alec Shelbrooke: Will the right hon. Gentleman give Government for sending our troops to war without the way? correct equipment in 2003 because he did not want to alarm his own Back Benchers that his Government may Mr Murphy: No, I have already given way to the hon. have already decided to go to war in Iraq? Gentleman so I shall make some progress. 1031 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1032

On the military covenant, the amendment to the whim of Ministers to decide in a report what is and is Armed Forces Bill that the Secretary of State and his not in the covenant. My hon. Friend makes a very friends were intent on rejecting said: important point. “The Secretary of State must by Order through Statutory The Government say that it is not necessary to detail Instrument establish a written Military Covenant (henceforth the military covenant, in principle, in law, because they referred to as “the Covenant”) which sets out the definition of the are already taking action. They mention the covenant in word “covenant”, used in Clause 2, line 6 of the Armed Forces Bill. The definition would set out the principles against which the the report and it was mentioned in the Armed Forces annual armed forces covenant report would be judged.” Bill Committee. All those involved in the debate today— except, perhaps, for you, Mr Deputy Speaker, because That is the amendment that the Government have found you are free from involvement in these debates—will so dangerous and refused to accept in Committee. That have received an e-mail from the Royal British Legion, is the amendment that they claim would create a whole which stated: set of new justiciable rights when it would do no such thing. “As the nation’s guardian of the Military Covenant, we would be very grateful if you could urge the Government to honour the Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Does Prime Minister’s welcome commitment last June to enshrine the Military Covenant in law. We do not understand why the Government my right hon. Friend recall that the deficit that the is now claiming that the commitment to produce an ‘Armed Government now blame us for was accumulated over Forces Covenant Report’ is somehow the same thing as enshrining nearly 30 years, so they are as responsible for it as the Military Covenant in law. It is not the same thing at all.” anyone? Does he agree that they should not have signed I urge hon. Members from both Government parties to up to a covenant that they never intended to carry out? listen to the legion’s voice and vote for the motion today. Mr Murphy: The fact is that prior to the financial collapse across the world and the banking crisis, we had The military covenant cannot be whatever Government pared down the debt. [HON.MEMBERS: “Oh.”] There is Ministers of the day deign it to be. It should be defined no point in that crowd on the Government Front Bench in law so that it is removed from the cut and thrust of moaning about this: throughout that period they demanded party politics. If the Secretary of State is true to his ever more spending on our armed forces. They cannot word, which I believe him to be, he should meaningfully deny that. define the covenant in law. What is needed is specific Returning to the military covenant— legislation to put the definition of the covenant on a legal footing. In the words of Chris Simpkins, the Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Will the right director general of the Royal British Legion: hon. Gentleman give way? “To suggest an annual covenant report would be as effective as a piece of legislation is nonsense and would be evidence of the Mr Murphy: In a second. So far, we have not had a Government doing a U-turn on their explicit promises.” single intervention from a Conservative Member who has said whether they are willing to back their own Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): manifesto commitment. I do not mean that as a negative The right hon. Gentleman has been talking for 20 minutes comment on the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) about putting his definition of the military covenant because I know he takes a keen interest in all these into law. Is he going to give us any form of definition matters. I will happily give way to him. before he winds up his remarks? Mr Brazier: I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of Mr Murphy: I know the hon. Gentleman understands State for giving way. He knows that I have raised with that it is not for me to give a legal definition of the Governments of different complexions issues from the military covenant at the Dispatch Box. It is for the treatment of the wounded to the state of married quarters. Government to define the principles of it in a legal In my 24 years here, representing a garrison city, I have sense, along with the armed forces and their families in never once had a serviceman or service family come to public consultation. [Interruption.] The Secretary of me and say, “This is all about producing a legal definition State’s Parliamentary Private Secretary is screaming of the military covenant.” What they want is to be at the top of his voice that there is no definition. If the treated decently and that is what the Government are Conservatives were in any way interested in the matter, trying to do. we could arrive at a definition of the armed forces Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman knows that I respect covenant on a cross-party basis, involving armed him and we try to find common causes, but it is the forces families across the entire nation. In truth, they manifesto on which he stood and in which his Prime have turned their back on their own manifesto, will not Minister made a commitment. listen to the British Legion and refuse to act on the issue at all. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend agree that various issues of Bob Russell: The shadow Secretary of State opened concern to military families will be included in the his comments with a tribute to three soldiers from the report on the military covenant and that the content of Colchester garrison. Some 3,000 of my constituents are that report should be determined by the external reference in Helmand province, and if any of them get to watch group and not by the Secretary of State? or read about this debate, I do not think they will be impressed with the contributions that are being made. I Mr Murphy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The urge Members on both sides of the House to show military covenant should not be whatever the Government respect. Playing party politics with our armed forces is of the day determine it to be. It should not be at the not what they want. 1033 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1034

Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman makes a very Committee that the Labour Government’s big failure important point. I have responded to each point raised on the duty of care was that they were unable to define in turn, and I will continue to do so. clearly what it meant. We are asking the Conservative party to maintain its manifesto commitment, and to vote for it. We will vote Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman raises an important for its manifesto commitment today, and the country point, but I listened very carefully to the British Legion’s will expect Conservative Members to do the same. campaign for the legal principle, and to its observations of the clear, glaring weaknesses in the current arrangements. Today’s debate also provides an opportunity for the Government to reflect again on their decision on the Several hon. Members rose— chief coroner’s office. It would give families who have lost those closest to them, often in tragic, painful and Mr Murphy: I shall make some progress before giving extremely difficult circumstances—the type of people way. whom the hon. Member for Colchester was talking about—the right to the best possible investigations and As I said, it is important that where we can, we military inquests into those deaths. On this day of all should build consensus, such as on support for the days, when the constitutional relationship between the operation in Afghanistan and on the treatment of those House of Commons and the House of Lords is being who return, but there is one matter on which it is considered, it is important that we listen to the House difficult to support the Government: the switch from of Lords on that important issue. retail prices index to consumer prices index for forces pensions and benefits. That is a highly charged and I turn to the wider of issue of Afghanistan and its emotional issue—rightly—but I shall make my case impact on the covenant. We have made it clear that we carefully, and I look forward to the Secretary of State will support the Government on Afghanistan whenever being equally careful and detailed in his reply. possible, as we did on Monday. I welcome their continued commitment to update the House on progress there, The impact of that switch will be felt by generations particularly in the diplomatic effort, which seems far of our bravest, from those who jumped from landing less advanced than the military campaign. craft on to the beaches of Normandy in 1944 to those facing the Taliban today in the Afghan desert sand. A Those injured in Afghanistan face enormous burdens corporal who has lost both legs in a bomb blast in and a life of dramatic change. That places a huge Afghanistan will miss out on £500,000 in pension and responsibility on the Government and politicians of all benefit-related payments, and the 34-year-old wife of a parties to support them, so that the country fulfils its staff sergeant killed in Afghanistan will be almost £750,000 responsibility to them. Public services, public servants, worse off over her life. charities, the private sector and Government must continually consider how best to support all our forces, There are only two possible justifications for that particularly those who are injured. We should try to policy. The first is that Ministers think that the support generate consensus on that at every possible opportunity. that forces personnel and their dependants currently receive is overly generous, but I have not heard any of them say that. The second possible justification is, of Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD): Why course, deficit reduction, which Ministers do pray in does the shadow Secretary of State think that the aid. However, that argument does not add up. The wording in the Armed Forces Bill, which reflects the impact of those measures will be felt long after the will of the country to honour the covenant, is not what deficit has been paid down and the economy has returned the people want? How does he think it fails to cover all to growth. The deficit is temporary, but those cuts will the issues that he is talking about? A lot of armed forces be felt for the rest of our forces’ lives. personnel and their supporters undoubtedly believe that it does cover them. Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con) rose— Mr Murphy: As I said earlier, the British Legion has been pretty critical and straightforward about that. The Mr Murphy: I will happily give way to the hon. problem is the word “covenant” being used but not Gentleman, who has great experience on these matters. given a legal definition, which allows Ministers and Does he support the Government’s policy on the RPI-CPI Governments of all parties to interpret and reinterpret switch? it in an annual report. That is why the principle of legal definition is important. Mr Wallace: The right hon. Gentleman said that we should reflect on the British Legion election manifesto Mr Hancock: We had the same problem when the last and its 15 or 16 demands. The manifesto never mentions Government refused to accept their duty of care the covenant, but it does mention lots of solutions to responsibilities. They did that because nobody could help the welfare of our veterans and current serving clearly define, in rigid legal terms, what a duty of care personnel. What part of the Government’s progress is was. he unhappy with in relation to the British Legion’s manifesto, and what parts of the manifesto would he adopt sooner rather than later? Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): We did. Mr Murphy: The hon. Gentleman has vast experience Mr Hancock: No, you didn’t. The hon. Gentleman, in such matters and I do not doubt his commitment, but who was a Minister and before that was on the Defence there is limited validity in him brandishing last year’s Committee, will remember from his experiences on the British Legion document when he does not accept what 1035 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1036 it says in its e-mail today—it makes it very clear that it is of one political party, but these permanent cuts undermine unhappy with the Government’s position and that it the Government’s claim to be honouring the military would like a legal definition of the military covenant. covenant. Sir Michael Moore, chairman of the Forces Of course we should work on a cross-party basis on Pension Society has said: this, and I would be happy to do so— “I have never seen a government erode the morale of the Armed Forces so quickly.” Dr Murrison rose— That is a worrying position—one that we all hope to see Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab) reversed. rose— The truth is that this Government have lost the courage of the conviction and conscience they had in Mr Murphy: I shall briefly give way to my hon. their manifesto. One day in June last year summarises Friend. this Government’s approach to the covenant. On 25 June Jim Sheridan: I concur with the hon. Member for 2010, the Prime Minister stood on the decks of the Ark Colchester (Bob Russell) that this should be a non-partisan Royal, surrounded by members of the Royal Navy, with debate, but my right hon. Friend is right to remind the Harrier jets as a backdrop, and promised a new military House that during the Labour years, the then Opposition covenant that was written into the law of the land. constantly criticised the Government on the lack of Parliament did not get a vote on the decision to scrap spending on protective equipment, as did the generals. the Ark Royal and Parliament did not get the chance to We understand why the politicians criticised the express its view on the grounding of the Harrier fleet. Government, but why did the generals criticise them, Today, however, Parliament has the chance to make its and why have they suddenly gone quiet in the short voice heard. We should say it loud and clear, fulfil the period since the election? Conservative party manifesto pledge and define the military covenant in law. Mr Murphy: I do not wish to reopen that debate, but my hon. Friend is free to make that point whenever he wishes to do so. 5.2 pm It is clear that to date, the Government’s policy on the The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): covenant and their policy on the RPI-CPI switch are Let me too begin by expressing our condolences to the policies without a patron. No Government Minister has family and friends of Private Lewis Hendry, 3rd Battalion defended them, yet Ministers expect Back-Benchers to the Parachute Regiment; Private Conrad Lewis, suspend their consciences and their sense of right and 4th Battalion the Parachute Regiment; Lance Corporal wrong to vote through a policy that they have not Kyle Marshall, 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment; backed. Private Dean Hutchinson, 9th Regiment the Royal Logistic Corps; and Private Robert Wood, 17th Port and Maritime The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): If Regiment the Royal Logistic Corps, all of whom have the change from RPI to CPI in relation to the armed died in action in Afghanistan. Every death is a personal forces is so iniquitous, will the right hon. Gentleman tragedy; they are not simply numbers, and their loss is give an unequivocal guarantee that Labour will reverse it? felt by families and friends. We in this House remember Mr Murphy: I remember being in the Government them all in our thoughts and prayers. and playing that game of saying to the Opposition, There is no doubt about the general desire in this “Name your next manifesto,” but it is a desperate tactic. country to improve and develop the armed forces covenant. It took me 10 years to use that tactic, but it has taken It encompasses those of all ages and social groups, the Defence Secretary only a few months. Today, he is at those with different politics and those with none. It does the Dispatch Box but will not even stand up for his own not and cannot exist in the abstract, however. It cannot policy. Let me give him another opportunity to do so. be a wish list separated from the economic reality in Does he think it fair that when the deficit is temporary, which we find ourselves. A covenant between the armed this cut should be permanent? I am giving him a chance forces and the British people cannot ignore the financial to articulate his own policy. predicament in which the British people and their Government find themselves. Dr Fox: This merely proves the economic illiteracy of The starting point of this debate has to take account the Labour party. Even when the deficit is going down, of the economic situation inherited by the coalition the total debt is going up and the debt repayment is Government and the state in which the armed forces going up. It will take a very long time, even when we are and the Ministry of Defence find themselves at the end into positive growth, to see the debt coming down. The of 13 years of Labour Government. In short, the issue Labour party knows no more about economics in for the Opposition, as set out in their motion, is one of opposition than it knew in government. credibility, so we should examine the credibility of Mr Murphy: This comes from the right hon. Gentleman Labour Members on the issues that the shadow Defence who, when in opposition, demanded more spending on Secretary described as important. absolutely everything; even in the midst of financial crisis, he was demanding more and more spending. If Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Will the this move is driven by deficit reduction, the Government right hon. Gentleman give way? should come forward with a temporary measure rather than a permanent change. Dr Fox: In a moment. Finally, the military covenant goes to the heart of the There are three charges that still hang around the relationship between the military, society and the necks of Labour when it comes to defence, the armed Government. It should never be the exclusive property forces and the military covenant. In 13 years of power, 1037 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1038

[Dr Fox] Clevedon that the Conservative Government would review the rules on awarding medals, particularly the proposed their response to equipping our forces was often too national defence medal, which has been supported by little, too late; their spending priorities were wrong; and nearly 200 right hon. and hon. Members in an early-day there was too much waste and inadequate budgetary motion. Earlier this week, however, the Under-Secretary control. of State for Defence, Lord Astor of Hever, stated in the We have learned from the Chilcot inquiry—an other place that the Ministry of Defence would not independent inquiry—that it was purely for political review the role or membership of the committee that reasons that the Labour Government failed to order would award the national defence medal if it is granted. enough equipment, including body armour, for troops That is a remarkable U-turn in one year. Will the in the lead-up to the Iraq war. They did not want to Secretary of State address that point and discuss it with send the message that they were preparing for war, and his ministerial colleague? the result was under-prepared, under-equipped forces sent into conflict. Dr Fox: I can give the right hon. Gentleman the news that we have completed the review on military medals, In 2006, they failed to send enough troops and equipment and today I signed off the report, which will be published, into Helmand province and were painfully slow at providing and no doubt discussed in the House, before Easter. He more capable armoured vehicles to counter improved will get a clear answer to his questions. explosive devices. That led to a number of high-profile subsequent resignations from the Army, as has been Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I pointed out. They went 12 years without a defence would like to judge the Secretary of State by his actions review, even though, according to numerous former rather than his words. What progress is he making Defence Ministers and service chiefs speaking at the towards the establishment of a Government-funded Chilcot inquiry, the 1998 SDR was never properly funded. post-traumatic stress treatment programme as promised They overstretched our armed forces by fighting two in the armed forces manifesto? wars on a peacetime budget. Dr Fox: In a moment I shall set out how we have Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab) rose— made progress on all the manifesto commitments. The hon. Gentleman will be pleasantly surprised. Dr Fox: I will give way in a moment. The Labour Government overspent and overheated Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Did the an equipment programme that contributed to a £38 billion Secretary of State know about the evidence given by black hole in the defence budget. In Labour’s final year officials who served the Labour Government that it was in power, the MOD saw a record overspend of £3.3 billion the ministerial decision to delay the SDR that made the in the equipment programme. In fact, we inherited an black hole that was left so big and the difficulty of equipment programme that has its top 15 projects getting matters in order so much greater? £8.8 billion over budget and a cumulative delay of 32 years. When we were fighting two wars, their idea of Dr Fox: We could spend a great deal of time detailing commitment to defence and our armed forces was to the failures of the previous Government. Labour Members appoint four different Defence Secretaries in four years, constantly talk about making changes as though we including one who served simultaneously as Defence were in a vacuum or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Secretary and Secretary of State for Scotland. Dover (Charlie Elphicke) said, at year zero. We are in a Labour left a situation in which 42% of service single very difficult economic predicament largely of their living accommodation in the UK, and 52% of overseas making, yet they talk about not only the military covenant single living accommodation, was in the worst grade on but almost everything else as if there were no financial a four-point scale—although in a speech that lasted half cost and as if we should not take what is happening in an hour, the shadow Defence Secretary did not once the economy into account when it comes to pensions mention the quality of accommodation for our armed and programmes in the Ministry of Defence. forces. With all that going on, Labour Defence Secretaries Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does my spent almost £250,000 on modern art for the Ministry right hon. Friend agree that in the short term, while the of Defence. As former Chief of the General Staff economic situation is so bad, top priority should be General Sir Mike Jackson said in his autobiography, given to the education of the children of those who have they fallen in action or who have been so grievously wounded “preferred to spend on abstract art money which might otherwise that their future earning power will never be restored? have directly benefited soldiers and their families. It may seem a small point, but to me it was so indicative of the cultural divide in Dr Fox: As I might have expected, my hon. Friend the MoD”. makes a very good point. In the programme for government, The list goes on. In this country, we judge politicians we listed a number of measures that will start the not by their words but by their actions. The Labour process of rebuilding the covenant, and I am pleased to Government had 13 years to put matters right; we have be able to set out to him those that we have already had nine months so far, and I will set out what we have accomplished. done already. As I have said on a number of occasions in the House, no decisions taken in the strategic defence and Mr MacShane: I am glad to give the Secretary of security review will have a negative impact on our State a moment to calm down from his election speech. mission in Afghanistan. In fact, we have already made On 11 January last year, he wrote to Mr Yeomans in great strides in improving the conditions for those serving 1039 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1040 on the front line. In our nine months in office, we have The Government are committed to improving health doubled the operational allowance that was paid under care for our service personnel and have committed an the previous Government to over £5,000. Labour could additional £20 million in the SDSR for this purpose, have done so, but did not. We have changed the rules on part of which will be used to deliver further enhanced rest and recuperation, so any lost days of leave—due to military mental health care services. I believe this must delays in the air bridge or any other operational be our priority because it is all too easy to see the requirements—will be added to post-tour leave. The physical wounds of war, but the unseen mental wounds previous Government could have done that, but they of war have too often gone undiagnosed and untreated, chose not to. We have also pledged to provide university and all our society demands that we do not allow a and further education scholarships to the children of mental health time bomb to be created. members of the armed forces who have been killed since 1990. The previous Government could have chosen to Chris Bryant rose— do so, but in 13 years they did not. The current Government have now included 36,000 service children as part of the Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab) pupil premium, recognising the uniqueness of service rose— life and its effect on service children and service communities. Labour could have done so, but did not in 13 years. Dr Fox: I give way to the hon. Member for Paisley John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab) rose— and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan). Dr Fox: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will tell us why Jim Sheridan: The right hon. Gentleman is explaining not. the promises or pledges in his party manifesto. Do they include his pledge to compensate Christmas Island veterans, John McDonnell: I want to concentrate on a more many of whom will be watching this debate and wanting serious issue, which I would like the Secretary of State an answer? to—[Interruption.] May I complete what I am saying? The Secretary of State has focused on the past Government’s Dr Fox: That was not a commitment in the Conservative record, of which I have also been critical, but last week manifesto, but Ministers will constantly review the issue, the current Government introduced an immigration as happened under previous Governments. fees order which I objected to, and which I see has been carried on a deferred Division today. The explanatory Chris Bryant: Will the Secretary of State give way? notes explain that it introduces for the first time the power for the Government to charge fees for the registration as British citizens of the children born to British armed Dr Fox: We have waited a long time, so I hope it’s a forces personnel serving abroad. It cannot be right that cracker. we are penalising the children and families of service personnel serving abroad on our orders. I ask the Secretary Chris Bryant: I want to ask the Secretary of State of State to liaise with the Home Secretary to ensure that about 160 Brigade. As he knows it is the Welsh brigade she exercises her discretion to waive these fees. based in Brecon. Secret discussions have been going on over the last few weeks about collapsing the brigade and Dr Fox: I am also aware of some of the implications joining it with the West Midlands, which would mean of that, and my officials have already had discussions there was no longer a Welsh brigade. Can he give an about the issue with my Cabinet colleagues. I will write absolute assurance that that will not happen? to the hon. Gentleman when I have some progress to report. Dr Fox: As the hon. Gentleman knows, there are ongoing discussions in the armed forces, but as he has Chris Bryant: Will the Secretary of State give way? heard me say on a number of occasions, I am very keen Dr Fox: Not at the moment. that we have United Kingdom armed forces and that we I have set out a number of areas where the Government maintain the footprint as widely as possible across the have already acted in just nine months. Some £61.6 million UK. If he wants to talk to me directly about that, I shall has been allocated in the current financial year for the be happy to meet him. upgrade of, and improvement programmes for, service Labour’s legacy means that there is not enough to do accommodation. That will include upgrading some 800 all that we would like to do, but we can make a start. service family homes to the top standard, with a further None of it alone will instantly rebuild the covenant, but 4,000 properties benefiting from other improvements it is a step in the right direction. In the difficult economic such as new kitchens and bathrooms. circumstances the coalition Government have inherited, Of course, in the current tight financial situation where all parts of society are making sacrifices, repairing priorities must be established. My welfare priority will the covenant will not be straightforward. The armed be mental health. We have accepted in full the mental forces are subject to the difficult decisions we have had health plan for service personnel and veterans set out in to make on pay, pensions and allowances across the report by my hon. Friend the Member for South Government. West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). That will provide a Neither the Prime Minister nor I came into politics to range of improvements in mental health care, including see cuts in the armed forces, but we have to deal with the increasing the number of mental health professionals reality of the legacy. Every Department has to make a from mental health trusts looking out for veterans and contribution to deficit reduction and the Ministry of introducing structured mental health surveillance inquiries Defence can be no exception. We have to put the into routine service medical examinations and all discharge economy on the right track for the sake of our national medicals. security. 1041 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1042

[Dr Fox] John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Is the Secretary of State saying that his party never The coalition agreement recognises that we have to made a commitment to enshrining the principles in law? do more to ensure that our armed forces and their If he is not saying that, will he set out why his position families have the support they need, and are treated has changed on this difficult subject? with the dignity they deserve. Some of what we need to do will cost money, and with budgets squeezed, we may Dr Fox: We are for the first time recognising the not be able to go as quickly as we want, but we will covenant in law. We are setting it out in law in the make progress where we can. The recent report on the Armed Forces Bill that the Secretary of State for Defence covenant commissioned by the Prime Minister from the will be required to come to the House of Commons, military historian Professor Hew Strachan suggests a and when we have published the tri-forces covenant, the number of ways to move forward. We are implementing House of Commons will be able to decide whether the some of them now and will announce in the near future Government have lived up to their part of the bargain. I the other recommendations we support. find it extraordinary that nine months into the new Government, when we are writing that into the law, we As Members know, the military covenant was conceived get complaints from the Opposition, who did not once as an expression of the mutual obligations that exist try to do so in 13 years in power. between the nation, the Army and each individual soldier. In consultation with service charities and others, The covenant will set out how we are supporting our the Government are rewriting the covenant as a new armed forces, their families and veterans in key areas tri-service document—the armed forces covenant—which such as health care, housing and education. It will be expresses the enduring, general principles that should the first time the existence of the armed forces covenant govern the relationship between the nation, the Government has been recognised in statute. For that, I think all and the armed forces community as a whole. It will fair-minded people would believe that the coalition include all three services, veterans, family members and Government deserve some credit. local communities, thereby broadening the scope of the covenant. We shall publish it in the spring. Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): Although I applaud what the Secretary of State is The reserve forces form an intrinsic part of the UK’s saying about his support for veterans and former members defence capability and thus the armed forces community. of the armed forces, may I draw to his attention the case The Ministry of Defence is responsible for ensuring of my constituent, Ann Dexter, whose son Richard that reservists are treated fairly and with respect, and Coombes is suffering from dire mental health problems that they are valued. In the drafting of the armed forces as a consequence of his injury on active service? The covenant, reserves have been considered equally alongside Ministry of Defence was ordered by a judge to pay him regulars. That will set the tone for Government policy £130,000 compensation but still, three years later, not aimed at improving the support available for serving all of that compensation has been paid. Will my right and former members of the armed forces, and the hon. Friend look into that case urgently and get back to families who carry so much of the burden, especially, as the family to explain why the Ministry of Defence has we remember today, in the event of injury or death. not paid the compensation that it was ordered to pay?

Dr Fox: I am very surprised that three years after it Charlie Elphicke: Does my right hon. Friend agree was ordered by a judge to be paid, that compensation that it is an extraordinary situation for the Opposition has not been paid. I will certainly look into the case that to call a debate on the military covenant, which by their my hon. and learned Friend mentions. own admission they cannot define, yet we have heard from my right hon. Friend a clear definition of the The Government alone cannot provide all the support covenant, which is being written into the law of the required so we are determined to strengthen the links land? with the charitable sector, which does so much good work, often unsung. In many ways those organisations are also heroes in our countries when it comes to the Dr Fox: It is surprising that the Opposition should be armed forces. Involving the charitable sector is the only so desperate for a definition of the military covenant in way we can make a reality of the armed forces covenant, law, yet fail to produce one themselves. It is just as because the duty of care is on all of us, not simply the absurd as their claim that they are trying to implement Government. the Conservative manifesto on the subject. I happen to From now on, however, the Government are obliged have the Conservative manifesto of 2010 in my hand to report progress on the covenant to Parliament annually. and I see no commitment whatever to writing the military That will ensure that this Government, and indeed all covenant into law. Indeed, we have gone further than future Governments, are held to account by Parliament. our manifesto commitment in the coalition agreement I made it clear last month on Second Reading of the by trying to take that forward. It is one of the elements Armed Forces Bill that the external reference group, that shows that the coalition Government were able to which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Ayr, work together to go further than either party had done Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), will also continue in the manifestos that we issued at the general election. to monitor Government progress. But it is about progress We need to ensure that progress is made, year on year. on the covenant on all sides, not just the Government’s. That is why we have brought forward legislation in the The covenant is not just between the Government and Armed Forces Bill requiring the Defence Secretary to the armed forces. It is a covenant with the whole of present an armed forces covenant report to Parliament society. That is why I find the external reference group every year. I hope to deliver the first of those reports in to be of such value. It will bring independence and the autumn. clear-mindedness. 1043 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1044

Sandra Osborne: When the Secretary of State refers Looking after people who are currently serving is to communities, does that include local communities only part of the covenant; the duty of care does not end where there are currently armed forces bases? What when active service ends. The community of veterans in about the contribution that they have made over the Britain is estimated to be around 5 million strong. The years, and what about the economic impact on those vast majority of men and women who serve make the communities of the closure of bases? transition to civilian life successfully. Many of the skills they learn in the armed forces are highly sought after, as Dr Fox: As the hon. Lady knows, we are spending a are their character traits: self-discipline, self-reliance great deal of time and effort getting the balance of the and leadership. However, for a small number the transition bases correct, primarily for our national security needs, is not so easy. Some find it difficult to get work or but we will also take into account the social and other struggle to fit in. Others may suffer more serious problems, impacts that the changes will have. The hon. Gentleman both physical and mental, as a result of their service, as from the Scottish National party who is normally in his the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has seat usually intervenes at this point. We are aware of the pointed out. Those are the people who most need our changes— help. First, we need to give people the help they need when Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP) rose— they leave. It takes time to turn a civilian into a soldier, Dr Fox: Wrong one. so we should take time to turn a soldier into a civilian. Our resettlement programme helps service leavers to The point is well made by the hon. Member for Ayr, navigate civilian life; everything from finding a job, to Carrick and Cumnock. We understand the problems benefits, education and retraining. We are making sure that we face, but it was inevitable when we had to make that it is focused on those who need it most. reductions under the SDSR that there would be changes to the basing. We are sympathetic to the local needs that For example, ex-service personnel now get more support she mentions. to study at university. The Department for Education is drawing up plans to create a new programme called Bob Russell: The Secretary of State will join me in “Troops to Teachers” to get experienced, high-quality mentioning a body that, as far as I recall, has not yet ex-service personnel into the teaching profession. In a been referred to—the reserves and Territorials, without country where it is often claimed that there are not whom our actions in Afghanistan would be all the enough role models, believe me there are plenty in the poorer. armed forces. Secondly, when a veteran falls on hard times, there Dr Fox: I realise that I might have a soporific effect should be somewhere to turn. The problems can result on Members, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman missed from debt, homelessness, addiction or mental illness my reference to the importance of the reserves. The resulting from their service. Such difficulties can occur Government are acutely aware of their importance and years after leaving the services, so we need a proper the part they play in the wider security of our country. partnership between all arms of government, national and local, and with the NHS. That means ensuring that Jim Shannon: Will the Secretary of State give way? veterans get fair access to local housing schemes, providing more money and more nurses for mental health and Dr Fox: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, as I working with the charitable sector to get the right rather ignored him a moment ago. support to the right people at the right time. Jim Shannon: I speak not as an Irish or Scottish Having worked as a doctor for some years with nationalist, but as a Northern Ireland Unionist. I know service personnel and their families, I have seen at first that the Secretary of State has already responded on the hand some of the difficulties and stress surrounding need to look after those with health and mental health service life. Many of the pressures are the same faced by conditions, but I have recently met people who had lost ordinary families up and down the country, but others limbs, whether legs or arms, so will he indicate what are unique. Those have to be dealt with sensitively and help will be available for those people, because they appropriately. have had the trauma of the physical disablement and of the resulting mental disablement? I am keen to hear Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): The what he will do to help those people. Secretary of State is being very gracious, and I do appreciate him letting me in. Dr Fox: Those who suffer traumatic amputations, and often multiple traumatic amputations, increasingly Will the right hon. Gentleman be a little clearer with get very high-quality care in this country, both from me about the definition of “military covenant”? In the what the military and the NHS are doing. [Interruption.] Bill Committee last week, the Under-Secretary of State Members on the Opposition Front Bench say that that for Defence, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire is thanks to the previous Government, and I acknowledge (Mr Robathan) said that he thought the military covenant their work on that front. With regard to the interface was a “conceptual” thing, a “philosophical statement”, between the NHS and other services, we are again and that it would have working increasingly to ensure that we get constructive “the same legal position as the service Command Paper”.––[Official action between them. Any Member who has visited the Report, Armed Forces Public Bill Committee, 10 February 2011; medical service or Headley Court will realise just what a c. 22.] high-quality service our armed forced get in this country. Is that the case? Can the Secretary of State give me his It is something of which the whole country, irrespective definition of the military covenant, so that he might of politics, should be proud. explain to his Minister what it is? 1045 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1046

Dr Fox: I have already set out that what my right hon. that he ran in his entire life. He would freely admit that, Friend says is true. There is a concept of what the as he crouched in the landing craft heading for shore, covenant means in terms of the relationship between with bullets pinging off the infrastructure, he was petrified the armed forces and the people of this country, and the of the doors opening. When they finally opened, his responsibility that the people of this country have not stomach turned over, and he went up that beach in full only to those serving in the armed forces, but to their kit faster than Linford Christie. He made it unscathed families and to veterans. As I said very clearly, however, to the top, but the next day he had most of his stomach we are setting out and will publish in the spring a blown out by a German shell in a field just beyond the tri-service covenant for the first time. It has to go beach. He suffered for it every day of his life for the next beyond the traditional covenant, which related to the 48 years. In return, he received a small pension from the Army; we are discussing the issue with the charitable Government and spent the rest of his life worrying sector and the armed forces; and we will publish that about losing it. He was grateful for the money. He spent new tri-service covenant in the spring. most of it on beer, if the truth were known, but he I am aware of the time constraints, Mr Speaker, so let enjoyed every pint. Was he worth it? Damn right he was, me just remind the House of the point with which I every penny, because without him and his mates, there began. This year, the £43 billion that the UK will spend would be a foreign flag flying over this Parliament— on debt interest payments—the debt that the previous assuming, that is, that this building existed at all. We Government left behind—amounts to more than the owe him, along with thousands of his comrades, a debt Ministry of Defence, Foreign and Commonwealth Office of honour. We must never forget that. and international aid budgets combined. If we did not The very same applies to our present-day forces. They have it hanging around our necks, how much more may be small in number, but when they put their lives could we do on service housing, health care or allowances? on the line we have a duty to look after them, and their Instead, we will get absolutely nothing back for that families. money. We cannot sustain that level of deficit and debt without losing our influence in the world or being Andrew Bridgen: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that forced to limit our foreign policy and defence options. If the military power of our great country has been, is and we learned anything as a country from the cold war, it always will be a projection of our economic power, was that the stronger our economy, the better our national which has been devastated by the mismanagement of security and the more we can do for our service personnel. the last Government? Labour’s economic policies created a national security liability that goes behind the hard end of national Mr Crausby: I will get to that point. security and impacts on how we treat our armed forces, their families and the veterans through the covenant. We do not expect our forces to join a trade union or Labour wants to, but cannot, wash away its legacy by allow them to go on strike, so they are entitled to be ignoring its actions while in government—a Government treated differently. My dad lay in that French field for of whom Opposition Members were a part. two days before he was found, but he was eventually flown back to the UK and put back together. When he There is no point in the people who left us broke recovered, he voted Labour, and he never missed the complaining that we are not doing enough. There is no opportunity to vote Labour in every election until the point in the people who had 13 years to deliver, but day he died. I make that point simply because this is not failed to, telling us that we have not done enough in a party political issue. Many of his comrades returned nine months. The shadow Defence Secretary is a very to vote Conservative, and Liberal, and other weird decent man, but he represents a party that failed in its things, as was their entitlement, and some did not duty to the armed forces. It has no creditability on the bother to vote at all. So it is shameful to turn the matter issues that should have been dealt with when the money of the covenant into a point-scoring party political was available in earlier years. issue, as the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire Because of the nation’s dreadful finances, we as a (Andrew Bridgen) did. Government are being forced to take some tough We all know that we are in difficult circumstances, decisions—including on allowances and on pensions. but I do not know what my dad would say about cutting We do not do so because we want to; we do so because soldiers’ allowances at the same time as Barclays pay we have to. We do so because, as the outgoing Labour their investment bankers 20% more—not to mention Chief Secretary to the Treasury actually said in his note, making Afghan veterans redundant by e-mail, which is “Sorry, there is no money left”. Perhaps it was a joking even worse than when John Major made Bosnian front-line matter for Labour, but it is deadly serious for the armed veterans redundant by post. I suppose that the MOD forces. has at least come up to date. The coalition Government are taking the difficult decisions required to deal with Labour’s legacy, and we Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Will the hon. will continue to rebuild the armed forces covenant. I Gentleman give way? wish we could go faster, but we will go as fast as we can. Opposition Members got us into this mess; this Government will get us out of it. Mr Crausby: For the last time.

5.33 pm Bob Stewart: John Major did not do that. I told Bosnian soldiers that they were made redundant personally Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab): My by waking them up in the morning and telling them as dad landed in France and ran up the beach on D-day. If they woke up, and then I gave them the paper. That was he was alive today, he would tell us that it was the fastest rotten. 1047 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1048

Mr Crausby: In any event, it was shameful. Whatever reserve the right in future years to come back and give my dad would have said about it, I assure people that it my assessment on this Government and future would not have been pretty. Governments when we have reports on the military The truth is that our defence expenditure is already covenant in this place. too low, and has been for years when measured against We have talked a lot about morale in the armed our foreign policy aspirations. The most important forces, and I will pinpoint one moment. I was excited in pound that we earn is the one that we defend our 2006 when the previous Government introduced the families and our country with whenever we are in operational allowance, and I pay tribute to them for danger. When we are at war, it should be the last pound that. I received it, and for the record, I donated it to the that we cut, and we must certainly never cut it from the Royal British Legion because I thought that was the people who are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice right thing to do as a Member of Parliament. However, for us. I also remember the horror when we discovered that, at Over the next few years, we will be spending countless the same time, the longer service separation allowance billions on aircraft carriers, on fighter planes, on unmanned had been cut by almost exactly the same amount. There aerial vehicles, on nuclear submarines and on nuclear was a great fanfare by Tony Blair about the introduction missiles; it will no doubt end up being very much more of the operational allowance, and yet the cut to the than the MOD’s current estimates. So what are we longer service separation allowance was made quietly. playing at in cutting a relatively small sum from our Although I fully support this Government’s doubling of armed forces’ children’s education? Last year in June, the operational allowance, I give the caveat that members our Prime Minister stood on Ark Royal and talked of our armed forces will be looking carefully at their about making formal commitments on matters such as payslips in future, such is the cynicism of many of them. education for military children and care for those injured We must be very careful on that point. on the battlefield. He said: Another example is the introduction of the new “I want all these things refreshed and renewed and written down in a new military covenant that’s written into the law of the payment system, the computerised joint personnel land.” administration system. It had many gremlins, but such He did not say, “I want an annual report.” is the way with computer systems. One of the biggest problems with that system, which really upset members Let me give the Prime Minister a tip, and perhaps the of the armed forces, related to the allowances. If somebody Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Defence will went from A to B, rather than being told what their take note: if he expects to retain any political or personal allowances were, they had to go and find out. It was a integrity in life, he must not make promises that he pool system and people were not notified of what their cannot keep. We can understand Liberals making promises allowances were. Like many of the benefits that were that they do not expect to keep, but the Tories should introduced, people were not automatically entitled to know better. them. That needs to change. The air bridge was mentioned in the opening remarks 5.40 pm of the debate. I experienced the problems of the air Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): It is bridge in 2006: being woken up five hours before the an absolute pleasure to follow the hon. Member for flight; getting stuck in Cyprus; not being able to ring Bolton North East (Mr Crausby), who has been an home to tell the family that one would be late; finally excellent member of the Defence Committee for several getting back two days later; missing some leave; and years. The moving story of his father reminded me of a having one’s rifle sent to Aldershot, one’s bag sent home T-shirt that we had printed when I commanded a bomb and one’s other kit sent elsewhere. I raised those concerns disposal squadron. On the front it said, “I’m a bomb in the Chamber and there has been some improvement, disposal officer,” and on the back it said, “If you see me but there are still major problems. I welcome the running, try to keep up.” Government’s move to ensure that any leave that one I start, of course, by declaring my interest as a misses as a result of those problems is added to the end serving member of the armed forces. It was an honour of one’s post-tour leave. Some say that should happen to serve in Bosnia and Kosovo, and I am grateful to the in that two-week period, but that is impractical. It previous Government for allowing me to serve in would be simply impossible for a commanding officer Afghanistan in 2006. I wish to make it clear that any in Afghanistan to man his various companies without limited experience that I have pales into insignificance knowing when soldiers may return. compared with that of those who are serving in Afghanistan Finally, I want to say a few words about the reserves. today. As a reservist, I was delighted that the Secretary of Much of the debate has been about whether the State mentioned the reserves in his opening remarks. Government should enshrine the military covenant in There was deep concern back in 2009 when, as reservists, law, or whether there should be a report on the military we were told out of the blue that there would be no covenant by law. I am not a lawyer and, to be honest, I more training for six months because of mid-year savings. do not know about that. As a member of the armed That decision was wrong, so I was delighted that the forces and like fellow members of the armed forces, I do then Government saw the error of their ways and not really care. What is important to me is not whether corrected it. However, that decision should never have we enshrine it in law. That is a process point which been taken. If we are to promote a one-Army concept, demonstrates how out of touch the House of Commons we cannot treat the reserves as second-class citizens. I is with our armed forces. What is important to me is would like a reassurance that such silly measures, which that this and future Governments are judged by what is target the Territorial Army and undermine the one-Army achieved—by the output of the military covenant. I concept, will not be introduced again. 1049 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1050

[Mark Lancaster] people’s futures can be destroyed when their dreams of serving their country are thrown away, after they have The Government’s move to recognise the military read about the decision in a national newspaper. covenant in a Bill for the first time is to be welcomed. The military covenant must not be simply a concept We can argue about the semantics, but as I said at the or a philosophy; it must be something that people can start of my speech, I and many other members of the hold in their hands and feel secure about. It must be armed forces will judge this and successive Governments something that we, as a country, stand up to and stand not on the detail, but on what is achieved. by. Our armed forces and their families need to know that, whatever Government are in power, we will stand 5.46 pm strongly by our commitments to them and that we will Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I am incredibly honour those commitments. As I have handed over pleased to follow the first two Back-Bench contributions veterans badges across my constituency over the past to this debate. I hope that my contribution will be of the few years, I have seen the pride that people still felt same incredibly high order, because it is that high level about their years of service. They felt that those were of debate that our armed forces want to hear from this the best years of their lives, and the times when they Chamber, not the yah-boo politics that we heard from were most alive. We must honour those people, and the Front Benches. make a commitment to them in law. If we are to have The military covenant is about the duty of care and only a report, there must at the very least be a commitment the principles of that duty.It must set out the responsibilities to a free vote on the covenant for every Member of the of the Government and the country to those who serve House. and have risked their lives, just as the father of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton North East (Mr Crausby) 5.52 pm did and as the hon. Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster) has done. The military covenant is Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): It is a privilege to about people who do not have a choice over where they follow the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), go or what they are called on to do—people who have who more than lived up to her own billing. She spoke no right to strike or raise objections; people who have with great passion and great insight. I was also amused no voice. The military covenant should give a voice to to hear the account from the hon. Member for Bolton those voiceless, and it must be enshrined in law. North East (Mr Crausby) of what his father had done Why must the military covenant be enshrined in law? on D-day. If anyone had asked my father what he had At the moment, our military is suffering from insecurity done in the war, he would have said, “Actually, I was a and instability. Morale is at an all-time low. Everyone in D-day dodger.” My father was wounded three times in the Chamber has talked to military families. They will Italy, but the events there never got the coverage that have had military families come to their surgeries who the troops in France did. The hon. Gentleman’s contribution are concerned about how they will weather the strategic was a fascinating one. My hon. and gallant Friend the defence and security review, the cuts in allowances that Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster) have suddenly come upon them and the job losses, gave us his insight into his own service, albeit as a whether they are civil servants, many of whom are reservist, and being called up to the front line. That was ex-military, or serving military personnel. There are extremely interesting. pressures and tensions everywhere across our armed My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for South forces. West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) is preparing a document The sacking of personnel by e-mail has sent shock on the military covenant, and I have recently been asked waves through the armed forces. The failure to follow what the covenant means to me. I was brought up to through on the training commitment to those young believe that the military covenant was the link between people—many were hours away from completing four soldiers and officers, and between the nation and those years of training to achieve a qualification that would soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines and their officers. have carried them through the rest of their lives—has Even more importantly, it is the link between the nation devastated families and young people. and the families, to whom the nation owes so much. I would like to pick up on a point that the hon. Member Why has the British Legion taken the unusual step of for Bridgend made, which is that the military covenant writing to Members of Parliament to ask that the stands way above party politics. Yesterday’s urgent question military covenant be endorsed in law? This is a matter showed the House of Commons at its absolute best. It of trust, but I do not think that we demonstrate a was about looking after the little people who do so tremendous amount of trust when we descend into much to defend this nation. I will expand on that in a making party political points about the military covenant. moment. I am sorry to say that the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have already become the parties of broken In 1996, I led Nottinghamshire’s own regiment, the promises and broken commitments—[Interruption.] I Sherwood Foresters, through what was to be my have to say that promises have also been broken by my constituency of Newark. We were essentially a peacetime party. army: we had come back from Northern Ireland and All of us have a duty to make the highest level of from Bosnia, but we were essentially a peacetime army. commitment to our armed forces, and we should be The burghers of Newark were polite, courteous and judged by our actions. We can all make a list of the enthusiastic. The town was glad to see us. things we have done and the things we have failed to do, Two years ago, the successor to that battalion, now but what we really need to do is think of the consequences sadly called 2 Mercian, paraded after its last tour in in our communities, because families can be devastated Afghanistan, where it had picked up a record number of by the decisions that come out of this Chamber. Young conspicuous gallantry crosses—more than any other 1051 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1052 battalion in the British Army. The town was mobbed. on both sides of the House stood up for those warrant There was standing room only. Women and children officers against the leviathan that the Army can be. were out on the streets. Union flags were being waved; That was the Chamber at its best, and the military regimental flags were being waved. The boys were covenant at its best, because we were looking after the overwhelmed by what they saw, and I was overwhelmed people whom we have a sacred duty to look after. I do as well. I could not believe it. This was the military not care whether that is written into law; the point is covenant put into practice. that we must get it right. We must honour these men, we What we must understand is that we are mere must honour these women, and we must honour their representatives of those people who were either marching families. That is a military covenant. or waving their flags. We must not make the mistake of believing that those kids off the streets of Newark, be 5.59 pm they serving in Afghanistan or clapping from the pavements, Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): understand or care about the semantics, the language It is an incredible pleasure to follow all the Back Benchers and the legalities which we use so much and find so who have spoken this evening, as their speeches have precious. What this is about is making sure that we shown the House of Commons at its best in terms of honour our men, our women, our fighters and their expertise and the passion with which Members have families. Whether it be in law or whether it be simply been speaking. talked about, as we are talking about it today, that is the important thing. I start by paying tribute to our forces and the sacrifices they make for our country, and by referring to the grief Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I do not of the families of those who have been lost. When I think that anyone in the House disagrees with what the recently went to Afghanistan with the Select Committee hon. Gentleman says, but does he agree that legislating on Defence, we visited a forward operating base—I for a military covenant would allow military families to believe this was the first time the Committee had done trust the Government to provide everything that he so—and the dangers faced by our soldiers on a daily mentions? basis were obvious and very humbling. Through the work taking place there and at Camp Bastion, together with the training of the Afghan army and police, we are Patrick Mercer: I do not know and I do not care. seeing real progress, but for me it was the professionalism What I do know is that when it works, it works superbly. of our forces that shone through. The best part of the I hope to say more about that shortly, but first let me visit came when we spoke face to face with members of explain how we have let our troops down and how the the forces. I was left in no doubt that they are extremely military covenant has been compromised. worried about their terms and conditions, and their Let me point out to all Members who were serving future pension arrangements, and that many did not here at the time that this week in 2006, on 14 February, feel that they were being treated fairly. I had similar we had a debate which my friends and colleagues on the conversations when the previous Government were in Opposition Benches will particularly remember. Troops office and I acknowledge that members of the armed were being committed to the Helmand valley in forces were not happy then either. We have to acknowledge Afghanistan, an area where, in 1880, a British brigade that much more can be done. The shadow Secretary of lost 1,000 men in four hours, and where a Russian State outlined what had been done, but we need to regimental unit lost 700 men over three days. We committed make more progress. troops to that area without enough guns, without enough In the House, we are rightly always hearing warm helicopters, without enough ammunition, and without words of appreciation for our forces, but they can ring enough bayonet power to do the job. That was the worst hollow if they are not put into practice in the military sort of compromise of the military covenant, and it was covenant and if promises are made and then not kept. not done by Ministers wittingly. Most of it was done by In the Armed Forces Bill Committee, the Minister career officers who did not understand that the military responsible for veterans said that the covenant is a covenant involves the people who will do the fighting, “moral obligation” and a “philosophical statement” not the talking and the theorising. That is what we must and therefore does not need to be spelled out in detail or get right. enshrined in law. That is, of course, the exact opposite My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham of the promise that the Prime Minister made on the Ark (Bob Stewart) mentioned the notice given to troops Royal—the “Ark of the covenant” perhaps. who were made redundant after Bosnia. I do not remember My constituency in the south-west of Scotland covers that, but I do know that in battalions such as the large parts of Ayrshire that are closely associated with Cheshire Regiment, whose reputation stands high, the the Covenanters, who stood for the preservation of news of that measure was given by the commanding Presbyterianism against all attempts to re-establish Catholic officer personally, because leadership was exercised. or Episcopalian Church government—that is perhaps That is the point. The military covenant is about the not the happiest of illustrations for our Front-Bench exercise of leadership by officers and Ministers, and by team of Murphy and Doyle to take on board. My point the families whom both represent. is merely that covenants are scattered throughout history, Yesterday, we heard about the most awful nonsense nowhere more so than in biblical times. They often that had occurred some time earlier. A major had given represented the most deeply held beliefs and were of life news by e-mail of the sacking of a number of warrant and death proportions. The adjectives most commonly officers who were serving all over the world. I appreciate associated with them were words such as “solemn” and that that was difficult to administer, but is notable that “binding”. It was seldom enough for them to be written an urgent question was asked, that the Speaker allowed in the hearts and minds; it was far better for them to be it to be dealt with in the Chamber, and that Members written on tablets of stone or in blood. 1053 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1054

[Sandra Osborne] health services and I look forward to the development of further services, but I repeat that a promise made The military covenant is no less a thing; it is not a should be a promise kept. mere service level agreement and it is more than a bundle of moral obligations or philosophical statements. 6.7 pm Moral obligations and philosophical statements do not Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I thank Back Benchers pay the bills for our service personnel or veterans, nor on both sides of the Chamber for having retrieved the do they give guarantees in legislation, which is the debate, as Hansard will record. The debate will be read promise that was made and the promise that should be by many service personnel and former military personnel kept. and, as I said in an earlier intervention, it does not go Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): down well to play party politics with our armed forces. My hon. Friend is making a tremendously impressive Having served on the previous Armed Forces Bill—now speech on this issue. The people of Barnsley, in my the Armed Forces Act 2006—and on the Committee constituency, have great regard for the armed forces and debating the current Armed Forces Bill, I pay tribute to they expect the Members they elect to this House to the previous Government for the many advances that reflect that fact in not only everything they say, but were made regarding the welfare and interests of our everything they do. Does she agree with that? serving personnel and their families. I have no recollection of the military covenant—now Sandra Osborne: Yes, very much so. known as the armed forces covenant—being mentioned We are fortunate that both the Armed Forces Bill in our deliberations on the previous Bill. That concept Committee and the Defence Committee contain Members has been brought about by the efforts of the Royal who have served with distinction in the armed forces, British Legion, to which I pay tribute. I also thank the for example, the hon. Member for Milton Keynes North Secretary of State for praising reservists and for reiterating (Mark Lancaster), who spoke with such authority. I that praise when I intervened on him, because that is have not served in the forces, so I am grateful that I have part of the one-Army concept. Serving reservists and had the chance to take part in the armed forces their families are sometimes left out of the debate. parliamentary scheme. As hon. Members will know, the The armed forces covenant will be enshrined in law scheme allows MPs to spend some 22 days a year with a when the Bill is enacted because those words will appear particular service. Surprisingly enough, in my case it in legislation for the first time and because the Secretary was with the Royal Marines and although it was in no of State will be required to come to the House each year way equivalent to the experience of actual service, it and make a report. I am pretty confident that any certainly opened my eyes to the reality of the job being Secretary of State who for whatever reason tried to done, as well as providing opportunities to speak frankly airbrush out matters of concern would be quickly picked and off the record to the rank and file. I commend the up, and quite rightly so, by any Member who thought scheme to hon. Members who might not be aware of such issues were being ignored. it—it is very useful, especially given that relatively few Members of the House have served with the armed Mr Kevan Jones: The hon. Gentleman says that the forces. covenant will be enshrined in law, but he attended the One issue that worries me about the Armed Forces Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill the other Bill is the narrow way it is framed in terms of specifying day when the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the the issues that should be included in the covenant. right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), Education, health and housing are very important, but said of the covenant: none of them comes under the remit of the MOD. That “As I have explained already, it will be a conceptual, philosophical is not an adequate list of the many issues that exist and, statement, and it will have about the same legal position as the service Command Paper”. as hon. Members have said, are by no means the only matters of concern. Pensions are of major concern and To say that it will be enshrined in law is complete not just in relation to the retail prices index/consumer nonsense. prices index debate: widows’ allowances are also of Bob Russell: I am not a lawyer; all I know is that the concern. The agreement on pensions is being changed Bill, which I hope will become an Act, refers to the retrospectively and members of the armed forces feel armed forces covenant. Should there be more than that, aggrieved about that because they joined the forces in or should there be less? I do not know, but I do know the belief that they would be guaranteed a decent that as the years unfold, that concept will be developed pension. Now they feel let down. I mentioned the and built upon. Not only the Royal British Legion but external reference group earlier because I think it is other charities are involved. We have heard about the important that we have a level of independence. I do external reference group, but in fact a breakdown of not make a party political point: I believe that Governments that group has shown that the majority of its membership of any persuasion have a vested interest in highlighting is within Government. It is more of an internal the areas that suit them and ignoring those that do not. reference group, with a few very important external For example, why have pensions not been included even people added on. though they are obviously a hot issue? Health care is extremely important and I was delighted Sandra Osborne: The hon. Gentleman will recall to hear that the Secretary of State is prioritising mental from the activities of the Bill Committee that the devolved health services. Combat Stress in my constituency does Administrations are involved in the external reference a tremendous job for people who suffer from post-traumatic group. So far, that is the only way in which they have stress disorder, including through cognitive behavioural been consulted on the Bill. Does he agree that such therapy. I strongly welcome the prioritisation of mental consultation is important? 1055 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1056

Bob Russell: I have every confidence that the devolved on arsenal land—but I am also proud to be a member Assemblies and elected representatives from the areas of the Thamesmead Town and Abbey Wood Royal that they cover will not be silent on the Bill. British Legion, and it is on behalf of my fellow members On Monday, members of the Committee visited the that I want to make just one point. Colchester garrison, Merville barracks. They witnessed The Conservatives said in their armed forces manifesto a virtually deserted barracks, because virtually ever that they would look into Lord Boyce’s armed forces soldier of 16 Air Assault Brigade is currently serving in compensation scheme review to see whether the reforms Helmand province. I should like to place on record my were improving things for veterans. I suggest that they admiration of, and thanks to, all soldiers in that brigade, also look at how the policies of other Whitehall including those from other nations who are attached to Departments, such as the Department for Work and it. I understand that three people from the Danish army Pensions, will affect the conditions for current and attached to it have lost their lives. future veterans. The scale of the reduction in benefits Members of the Select Committee also saw the modern following the switch from RPI to CPI will wipe out the housing there, which is single person’s accommodation, increases in lump-sum payments that the previous for which the last Government can take credit. I do not Government introduced following the Boyce review. agree with its being funded by a private finance initiative, Far from improving conditions for veterans, that change because it will cost the public purse more in the long will be a backward step and a huge blow to members of run, but it is the yardstick by which the provision of all the armed forces, war widows and their families, because accommodation for single military personnel will be they rely on pensions earlier than other public sector judged in future. However, the Committee also saw the workers. In their lives, members of the armed forces outside of some of the family accommodation. Although face the risk of injury—both physical and mental—and we did not go inside, it is accepted that some of it is not so rely on getting their pensions earlier, as do the as good as it should be. widows and widowers of servicemen and servicewomen Across the road, former Army housing, now acquired who are killed early in their careers. by a housing association, is having millions of pounds Those groups, and those on the war pension scheme spent on it from the public purse to provide additional and the armed forces compensation scheme, will experience rented accommodation for civilians. That accommodation a greater diminution of the relative value of their pension is welcome, but when an Army family living in their over a greater period. Because of the switch to CPI, a substandard house see public money being spent across 40-year-old squadron leader will lose £300,000 by the the road on modernising the most up-to-date housing age of 85, which is not right. We should not be telling available, they have to ask what the military covenant is those who have risked their lives for this country that doing. How can the Government find money to do up they must suffer a financial loss on such a scale for the houses for civilians, which of course I welcome, yet tell sake of reducing the deficit as quickly as possible. As we us that there is no money to modernise the housing of heard earlier, the deficit is temporary, but the changes people whose soldier husbands are serving in Afghanistan to the pensions of members of our armed forces and of and putting their lives on the line? That has to be other public sector workers will be permanent—the addressed. I am not making any party political point, year-on-year reduction in their pensions will continue because the families we met were not bothered about long after the structural deficit has been reduced. party politics as far as I could tell. They just wanted their Government to do something about the problem. I oppose in principle the switch to CPI from RPI, and I shall end by talking about education, which is one I am unconvinced by the Government’s argument that of the three subjects covered by the covenant under the the former is a better measure. The Government need to Bill, although others will flow from them. The pupil postpone that change and to rethink their policy for all premium has been mentioned, and I welcome the concept, public sector workers, but members of our armed forces but it has not yet been spelled out to me what the are a special case. They have served their country, often criteria will be for that money stream to come forward making huge sacrifices. That also applies to the wider for the children of military personnel. It will be one families of personnel. The military service of personnel thing to identify military children on Army, Navy and means that it is likely that they have been away from Air Force bases, where the majority of the children at their families for long periods. We talk about the right the local school will be from a military background. to family life in the House when we talk about ourselves, However, we know that increasing numbers of armed but serving personnel should also have that right. The forces personnel do not live on military bases. How will families of personnel worry every day about the injury the pupil premium find its way to young people from or death in service of their loved one, waiting for that such families? phone call or that message, which must be the most awful way to live. I welcome the Armed Forces Bill, and I believe that the armed forces covenant will be enshrined in the law Cutting the pensions of members of the armed services of the land. I do not want to argue about the legal is not the way to reduce the structural deficit. I believe semantics, but the Bill is a huge step forward and we that the deficit can be reduced by greater investment, should thank the Royal British Legion for all its work. and a solid strategy for growth over time in a society in which everyone who is able to work does so, and in 6.15 pm which we support those who cannot. I urge the Government to review that aspect of their pension policy and to Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): I am abandon their short-term thinking on the economy, so proud to represent my constituency, which has a long that members of the armed forces and their families do military history—the arsenal at Woolwich is on our not pay the price for the banking crisis, in which they doorstep, and the new town of Thamesmead was built had no part. 1057 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1058

[Teresa Pearce] regulations. When I was serving, they were my bible when it came to dealing with my soldiers and how I As the general secretary of the Forces Pension Society, should behave. Perhaps the tri-service military covenant Major-General John Moore-Bick, says, the armed forces will in due course become part of the Queen’s regulations. pension is “the bedrock of trust” on which members of Members on both sides of the House must try to do our forces rely. They know that they or their families whatever we can in these parlous economic times to will be taken care of in the event of death or wounding, look after our soldiers so that we will remember them. and they can trust that they will have a decent life after active service. We alter that bedrock of trust at our 6.23 pm peril, and to our shame. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): There have been Several hon. Members rose— some excellent and thoughtful contributions to the debate. I am pleased that the Royal Welsh Regiment has been Mr Speaker: Order. There are now only 20 minutes given the freedom of the borough in Blaenau Gwent left for remaining Back-Bench contributions, and several this weekend. Members still seek to catch my eye. Members are perfectly capable of doing the arithmetic for themselves, but I Last week, I asked the Leader of the House for a appeal to them to help each other. debate on the Government’s proposed changes to armed forces pensions. I have also tabled early-day motion 1367, which is now supported by 118 MPs from all 6.19 pm parties. I welcome today’s opportunity to raise the issue Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I will be as quick as of the military covenant. I can. I love the idea of a military covenant. Of course For service personnel and veterans in my constituency, our armed forces are a special case. They are a martial pensions are a key component of the military covenant. profession: people who join them do not do so to join a Unfortunately, they do not believe that a permanent nursery school; they know they are going to take risks move from the retail prices index to the consumer prices and they know they may lose their lives. As we know, index in calculating pension increases is fair, and neither they are in a unique profession, so we have to deal with do I. This change will slash the lifetime income of them uniquely. That is why we must look after them. I disabled servicemen wounded on active service. They repeat: we must look after them. have been targets of the Taliban and others; they should The military covenant is a work in progress. I agree not be targets in their retirement. with my hon. Friend the Member for Newark (Patrick I am proud of Wales’s contribution to Britain’s defence; Mercer), who is no longer in his place, and others who it has been long and distinguished. The Welsh Assembly say that it is the idea of the covenant that counts rather has an admirable record in providing for our armed than law. We feel strongly that the tri-service military forces. That is why armed forces personnel now get covenant being looked at now, as work in progress, special help through the Assembly’s homebuy scheme. could get better. I feel that the military covenant comprises It is good that the Welsh Assembly goes that bit three crucial aspects, which I will quickly run through. further for our armed forces. That, I believe, is in Mr Kevan Jones: What the Defence Secretary said contrast to the Government’s policy on pensions for the this afternoon, which was also said in recent proceedings armed services. on the Armed Forces Bill, is that a document called As my right hon. Friend the shadow Defence Secretary “the armed forces covenant” is being worked on now pointed out, the Opposition accept the need for pay and will be produced later this spring. If that is the case, restraint in public sector pay and pensions in the current and the Prime Minister is clear that the covenant should economic circumstances. However, a permanent move be written into law, why is it not part of the Armed to uprating pensions every year in line with CPI rather Forces Bill? When an amendment was proposed last than RPI does not recognise the unique condition of week to enshrine the covenant in law, why did the hon. military service and retirement. It will, for example, Gentleman’s party vote against it? mean that those invalided out, and widows who lose their partner at a relatively young age, will lose out—and Bob Stewart: The answer is I do not know, but I will big time. continue and I will be quick. The impact of the Government proposals on pensions What is crucial to whatever we call the military uprating are stark and startling. For example, a disabled, covenant is how we respect our soldiers when they are double amputee, 28-year-old corporal would lose £587,000 killed. As a boy, I remember watching my father’s by the age of 70. I do not believe that is fair, given the battalion come back. He was the only officer who had sacrifices made by our armed services and servicemen not been killed and I remember watching the bodies and servicewomen. Lyndon Moore, the secretary of the come off the back of an aircraft at RAF Khormaksar Nantyglo British Legion in Blaenau Gwent, supports in Aden. We have come a long way since then, and we me in standing up for servicemen, who, he feels, have must respect people properly. Secondly, the families been let down by the Government in their hour of need. must be looked after properly. When someone dies in I applaud the coverage of this matter in The Times and the service of our country, we have a duty as a Government in the Pensions Fit for Heroes campaign of the Daily to look after those families for the rest of their lives. Mirror in recent weeks. And my third point is that we have a duty to look after The Government have acknowledged that the e-mail those who are hurt badly for the rest of their lives, too. sackings were a dreadful mistake, and the Defence I am happy that the military covenant is going to be Secretary’s apology yesterday was a full one. However, part of the Armed Forces Bill. I like the idea of having a let us reflect on how it must feel to have one’s long-term report every year. I commend the idea of the Queen’s national service terminated by e-mail, especially when 1059 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1060 one has served the country with distinction. The When I was newly wed to a naval officer, I was told by Government must sharpen up their act so that that the wife of a more senior officer that the only thing I dreadful mistake does not happen again. could guarantee in my life as a Navy wife was that the I hope that in the short time left before the Budget, day my husband told me he would be home from sea is the Defence Secretary will make the case to the Chancellor the only day he would not be home. That sums up the for a rethink on armed services pensions uprating. We situation. Such changes of plan are unavoidable of need an informed discussion on how we devise CPI and course, but the MOD must work on its communication RPI. The International Association for Official Statistics skills. Families can often be seen as a bit of a nuisance, has said that there is a risk of loss of public faith in and they are often the last to find out when their loved official data. The public are sceptical about a measure ones will be home. such as CPI, which excludes housing costs. Service pensioners know that housing costs are a long-term element David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Will the hon. in their monthly outgoings, particularly for invalids and Lady give way? war widows. That is why CPI increases are so problematic for them, and that should be emphasised today. Caroline Dinenage: I would love to give way, but I will Service personnel should be assured that the change not do so as I am also thinking about other Members in pensions uprating from RPI to CPI will be as brief as who wish to contribute. possible. Surely the Minister does not want to penalise An unhappy family makes an unhappy service person. service families for ever and a day. If the Government We need to rebuild the trust of our armed forces, and if change their mind, it will be an important boost to we make a promise we must stick to it. Making promises service morale and will ensure that the military covenant that are achievable and then exceeding expectations is is credible. Importantly, it is the right thing to do. far better than seeking to enshrine things in law. The UK’s armed forces have been working at a sustained 6.27 pm rate for decades. Whitehall is lined with statues commemorating the valour of servicemen and women, Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I pay tribute to but what would be a far more fitting commemoration in the fantastic contributions that we have heard in the their honour is a tangible covenant that can respond to House today. In comparison, my speech will probably the changing needs of our armed forces and that keeps sound quite parochial, as I speak as a member of a its promises to them and makes them feel safer abroad forces family: my husband is a Royal Navy officer, so and more valued at home. perhaps I should declare an interest as I am one of the people under discussion. 6.31 pm We have heard comments about political point scoring and making promises that we cannot keep, and those Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I will try to be are the two issues on which I want to focus. The armed brief by asking the Minister to answer the questions of forces is not a homogenous mass or fighting machine, others, not points raised by me. but soldiers, sailors, airmen, wives, husbands, kids, mothers The director general of the Royal British Legion, and fathers. We are asking people not just to lay down Chris Simpkins, said: their own lives but to lay down the lives of those whom “We’re seeing various allowances paid to the armed forces they love most in the world, to protect our country and being reduced…If we then see that the Government isn’t prepared its interests. We must remember, every day in this Chamber, to give a legal commitment to an armed forces covenant I feel that that those are the decisions that we are making. may well be the straw that breaks the camel’s back and will have a I fully endorse the renaming of the military covenant very harmful impact on morale.” as an armed forces covenant. The many Navy members In case there is any doubt, he talked previously about of my constituency—it is a military constituency—have “the need to define and enshrine in law a set of principles in a often felt that “the military covenant” is an Army-centric military covenant.” term, and they like the fact that the Navy and RAF are Let me put some points made by serving armed included in the rebranding of the name. forces families. J. Winfield of Nottingham says: I want to reinforce the point made by some of my “Once again a new Government have got into power on the hon. Friends this afternoon that it is missing the point back of broken promises. For those of us in the military, we have and the sentiment behind the covenant to talk about seen a cut in take-home pay (not a pay freeze), an attack on our enshrining it in law. Forces families have heard it all pension scheme (against the charter) and basically a complete betrayal by this Government. When the economic climate improves before—[Interruption.] Hon. Members can chunter all they need not worry about compulsory redundancies as experienced they like, but I can talk only from personal experience. personnel will be leaving in droves. But let us remember ‘we are all Successive Governments have promised to take care of in this together’.” the armed forces and failed to deliver. Hilary Adams of London says: Forces families do not want special treatment. They “I’m constantly amazed that anyone in the Army is surprised just want a level playing field; they want the same when they get dumped on by Government. Haven’t you people treatment as everybody else and the same opportunities realised you’re nothing more than cannon fodder? They made a as non-service families. Sadly, forces families are no big PR issue of upping other perks to soldiers when they came strangers to having their hopes raised and then dashed. into power. It should surely have been obvious that they would For example, MODern Housing Solutions offered itself pay for that by taking it away from you elsewhere!” as a revolution in delivering maintenance and repairs Let me conclude by quoting some comments I have for forces accommodation. Everybody in married forces taken off one of the armed forces sites. As the Government was very excited about that, but it failed to deliver its Front-Bench team will know, these sites can use fruity promises. language, so I have edited the comments. 1061 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1062

[Huw Irranca-Davies] have the same reputation. Given the catalogue of anecdotes about the failures of previous Governments, it is “How many of you are actually aware that as we speak, the unsurprising that we face a sceptical audience in the Government are to steal from each and every one of you who armed services and their families. have served your country and earned your pension tens of thousands of pounds because they are to change the way the annual increase The debate has been about words—about legal status— is worked out?...I just like thousands of other soldiers, sailors and but our focus beyond today must be on action and airmen have done my time plus some more and now they have results. I pay tribute to the Secretary of State and his decided to change the goal posts. I stayed in and I am still in ministerial team; they have done a lot in a short time on because of the pension, not because I like being institutionalised…For operational allowances, mental health services, rest and me integrity is important; if you promise something to a person, recreation and education, but the covenant is about you keep that promise and give it to them. The next person to much more than welfare issues, which leads me to my come along does not necessarily have to get the same deal, this is the way life is. I was promised something, and I want it in the third and final point. same form I had become used to expecting I would receive it. I The covenant is just as much about our industrial honoured my side of the agreement, will they”— strategy, the size of the defence budget and the voice of he is referring to the Government Front-Bench team— the military in future defence reviews as it is about “honour theirs? I doubt it.” welfare issues. In future months, I shall be arguing not just for service pensions to be linked to the retail prices He said: index, for medals for submariners and the Arctic convoy, “I shall be next year, aged 43, forced into possible unemployment for damp-coursing in naval housing and additional because the option to remain serving isn’t there for me like many allowances for those who search for improvised explosive others. Perhaps if enough of us actually give a hoot, and took action he”— devices, as well as for those who dispose of them, but also for a larger defence budget in future years, support the Prime Minister— for exporting Royal Navy-designed ships and for military “may have second thoughts. Wake up, people, if you are entitled representation on the secretariat of the National Security to an Armed Forces pension you are going to lose tens of Council. Why? Because if the armed forces covenant is thousands of pounds over your lifetime. What really annoys me is that it seems many of you either don’t know this is going to to be realised, it requires funds. It requires that we make happen”— the right procurement decisions and that we have a Parliament that listens to and learns from the concerns speaking to his other colleagues— and day to day issues of service personnel. “or don’t give a damn. Please start to take action now before it’s too late. We are getting royally bent over and”— In that sense, the subject of the debate is a decoy. Despite wonderful contributions, it is a piece of theatre. I leave the rest to the imagination of the House. We know that the military covenant will be enshrined in If the Government do not honour that covenant law, but it will be the subsequent actions of the House given on the Ark Royal, what will they do? Servicemen on the broader, more fundamental issues that ultimately and their families are asking the House to honour the decide whether the covenant is worth the paper it is covenant. That is what the debate is about. written on. I urge the shadow Secretary of State to focus on that in future Opposition day debates. 6.35 pm Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I declare 6.39 pm an interest as I am attached to Royal Navy Reserve, Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): I King Alfred, Portsmouth. shall make three quick observations. If the covenant is I want to make three points. First, many Members about anything, it must be about human resources and have pointed out that the covenant and defence are not how we deal with people. First, will the Minister look at the turf of one political party or another; they are far the composition of the Defence Board? If that was the too important, and must be beyond political gain. Those board of a large international company, it would include of us in the Chamber today, and those of us who speak human resources representatives. It does not, other regularly on these issues, must work with our parliamentary than a human resources representative of one of the colleagues to build understanding and interest in the outside companies. contribution our armed forces make not just to security Secondly, the defence cuts go to 17,000 service personnel but to our entire way of life. and 25,000 civilian personnel. Will the Minister ensure We need deeper understanding of the challenges that that we do not end up making the military, which will our armed forces and their families face in doing their be on higher wage rates, perform functions that cheaper duty, and I am pleased to announce that this year, for civilian personnel had performed, and that the proper the first time, we will be holding a Trafalgar night in the resources are made available? Thirdly, will he consider House of Commons to showcase the contribution the whether, if the budget is not increased, he will be able to Royal Navy makes to our way of life. I am delighted withdraw British troops from Germany in 2020? Will he that the shadow Secretary of State has agreed to co-host bear in mind that military personnel deserve some that event with me. It shows how we can build depth stability in their life, and that making promises that he and breadth in our colleagues’ knowledge of defence cannot keep is not a good idea? and related matters. Secondly, I repeat a point made by the Secretary of 6.40 pm State. The covenant must be about actions, not just about words. We judge our service personnel in a binary Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): way. Did we win? Did we secure our objectives? Our We have had an excellent debate this afternoon, including armed forces invariably do so. As politicians we do not the speeches that we have just heard from the hon. 1063 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1064

Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) and That takes me neatly to the main thrust of today’s my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston debate—the Government’s approach to our armed forces (Ms Stuart). We called for the debate today to enable and to the military covenant. In opposition the Members to hold the Government to account for the Conservatives declared that the covenant was “shattered” promises that they made to our service personnel. The and they promised to rebuild it. That does not fit with Government said that the military covenant is shattered, the coalition Government’s record of action since they but they have failed to offer a clear plan to strengthen it, have been in office. Last week, on 10 February, a and they have broken their promise to write the covenant spokesperson for the RAF Families Federation, in evidence into law. to the Armed Forces Bill Committee, said: Numerous Members paid tribute today to our armed “At the moment, there is a real feeling within the armed forces forces and they are right to do so. None did so more that they are being battered from all sides.” movingly than my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton The Government must pause and reflect on those North East (Mr Crausby), who paid tribute to his comments. father. Our servicemen and women do difficult and The hon. and gallant Members for Milton Keynes dangerous work all over the world and we owe them a North (Mark Lancaster) and for Newark (Patrick Mercer) huge debt of gratitude for the sacrifices that they make spoke about their own service experiences. They both to safeguard our liberty. We must not forget our armed said that they do not know and they do not really care forces families, as the hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline whether the armed forces covenant is enshrined in law. I Dinenage) reminded us. Theirs is a huge sacrifice too, entirely respect that position, and I entirely respect their having their husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, service. My concern is that the Prime Minister promised sons and daughters spend many months away from that the military covenant will be enshrined in law, and home risking their lives. That puts a great strain on that the Armed Forces Bill, as drafted, does not do that. families, but their support is priceless. We owe them our The Conservative and Liberal Democrat manifestos sincere thanks, but we also owe them fair treatment. made wide-ranging pledges on covenant issues, but we There was great progress on support for our armed have heard little about how, in government, they will forces under the previous Government. We delivered a take those forward. The Government’s plan to link cross-Government approach to forces’ welfare. The Service public sector pension rises to the consumer prices index, Personnel Command Paper set out improved access to rather than the retail prices index, means that inflation housing schemes and health care, free access to further will hit service personnel and war widows hard, as my and higher education for service leavers with six years’ hon. Friends the Members for Erith and Thamesmead service, and extended travel concessions for veterans (Teresa Pearce) and for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) and for those seriously injured. We proposed strengthening explained. That change is fundamentally unfair on the the military covenant by enshrining the rights of our people who serve to defend our way of life, as my hon. service personnel, their families and veterans in law Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock through an armed forces charter. My hon. Friend the (Sandra Osborne) noted, which is why we have suggested Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) explained why that an alternative, fairer approach. measure is so important. What action have the Government taken on the covenant? The Prime Minister established a taskforce to seek out Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Will the hon. “low-cost, innovative policy options to help rebuild the military Lady give way? covenant”. The Government have said that they will ensure that Gemma Doyle: Iamhappytogiveway,butImaybe our brave soldiers will get the best, but can the Minister able to do so only once. really look them in the eye and assure them that that will happen, given that the Government have said that Christopher Pincher: I am obliged to the hon. Lady. It they want it done on the cheap? has been a pleasure to serve with her on the Select As I have mentioned, Labour have proposed enshrining Committee on the Armed Forces Bill and now on the the rights of our armed forced in law. Last summer, it Bill Committee. She mentioned enshrining the covenant looked as though the Prime Minister had adopted our in law, but she heard the evidence of General Mans, idea. He visited the aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal and who told the Committee on 8 February 2011: promised her sailors that “I don’t think there is a requirement to set down standards”. “Whether it’s the schools you send your children to, whether In the same Committee sitting she heard the evidence of it’s the healthcare you expect, whether it’s the fact that there Admiral Montgomery, who said: should be a decent military ward for everyone who gets injured…I want all these things refreshed and renewed and written down in a “I have detected no appetite for legally enforceable measures new military covenant that’s written into the law of the land.” within this covenant, none whatsoever.” Fast-forward eight months and what a change we Why are those gentlemen wrong and why is she right? have: HMS Ark Royal has been consigned to the scrap heap and the Prime Minister’s promise has not fared Gemma Doyle: Indeed, it has been a pleasure to serve much better. The Government have not enshrined a with the hon. Gentleman on that Bill Committee. As he military covenant in law, and nor do they propose to do and I have already discussed, there has been some so in the Armed Forces Bill. We have had much debate confusion over two separate issues. One is about a on this point in the Bill Committee, with Ministry of highly prescriptive covenant being written into law, and Defence officials tying themselves in knots, frankly, the other is about enshrining the covenant into law at arguing both that the covenant should not be laid down all, which the Armed Forces Bill does not do, but which in law and that the Bill will in fact enshrine it in law—it his own Prime Minister has said he wants to do. was quite a sight to behold. However, the Under-Secretary 1065 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1066

[Gemma Doyle] enshrine the military covenant in law. It is no wonder that the chairman of the Forces Pension Society has of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for South said: Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), who is responsible for “I have never seen a Government erode the morale of the veterans and is serving on the Committee, has finally armed forces so quickly.” admitted that the covenant will not be laid down in law. Our brave servicemen and women, their families and The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) our veterans deserve better. raised the concerns of the Royal British Legion. Its e-mail to MPs today stated: 6.49 pm “We do not understand why the Government is now claiming The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence that the commitment to produce an ‘Armed Forces Covenant (Mr Andrew Robathan): The British people and, indeed, report’ is somehow the same thing as enshrining the military a great many Members will have been puzzled by today’s covenant in law. It is not the same thing at all.” debate, because all parts of the House agree on the Neither the covenant, nor the principles by which we substance of the issues and on looking after the armed would understand it to operate, will be enshrined in law. forces, and we have heard from both sides how much The Government are not being honest with our armed people care about armed forces personnel, their families, forces. They promised a military covenant enshrined in veterans, the injured, widows and so on. So what we law, but what is being offered is little more than fuzzy have heard, I fear, is a synthetic debate about semantics— assurances and woolly platitudes. They should fulfil dancing on the head of a pin. We on the Government their promise, as our motion seeks to make them do, Benches are absolutely concerned about results, not and ensure that they offer nothing less than the unshakable about party political point-scoring. commitment and the cast-iron guarantee that our I shall turn my attention first, if I may, to the hon. servicemen and women deserve. Member for Bolton North East (Mr Crausby), who gave a very moving account of his father on D-day. The Furthermore, like service personnel and charities, we hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: we all, of whatever have concerns about the annual covenant report that age, owe a huge debt to those who fought in the second the Government plan to introduce. It is too narrowly world war on D-day and on other occasions. I have to defined and lacks the independence from Government say, however, that I am sorry he thought that people required to ensure that it is an effective tool for improving who went off after D-day and voted Conservative were the lives of members of our armed forces. It is to be voting weirdly; I have always thought that it was a bit welcomed that the Secretary of State will lay a report weird to vote Labour, but never mind. We agree also on before Parliament for debate, as the hon. and gallant defence expenditure, but if I may say so gently, we Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) mentioned, but cannot spend money that we do not have, and that is as it stands only health, education and housing are why we have to cut the defence budget. specifically cited as issues to be considered in that report. That is insufficient. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster) made, without doubt, Of course those issues are vital to service personnel, the best joke of the day. He also spoke sensibly from their families and veterans, but there are many other experience, including recent operational experience, and concerns that affect their daily lives. I visited Colchester I say to him, “Trust me. We will not forget the reserves.” garrison this week, along with other members of the The reserves review will report this year to me. Bill Committee, and the hon. Member for Colchester The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) started (Bob Russell) spoke with pride today about the 16 Air calmly and asked to be non-political, but then I found Assault Brigade currently serving in Afghanistan. The that, rather sadly, she turned tribal and became rather concerns raised with me on Monday were about cuts to party political. I do not doubt her sincerity, however, allowances, cuts to pensions and the difficulties faced and I assure her that I and Her Majesty’s Government by service family members seeking employment. As similarly care deeply for the armed forces. things stand, the Secretary of State would not be obliged to report on how those issues affect our armed forces. I My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Newark think that he should at the very least report on issues (Patrick Mercer) spoke from experience and, again, that fall within his remit. rather movingly, this time about the covenant manifested in Newark. I thank him for his contribution, and he is The Opposition have proposed that the scope of the right: we must, indeed, look after our people in the covenant report should be expanded to include issues armed forces. such as mental health care, pensions, benefits, employment Turning to the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and and training. The Government have rejected our proposals Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), I am sorry to say this, but in Committee in a clear indication that they want the “the Ark of the covenant” was without doubt the worst Secretary of State to decide which issues should be joke of the day. Again, however, I do not doubt her reported to Parliament. I would like to address many commitment to, and support for, the armed forces. My other issues, but time does not permit me to do so. hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) is Today’s debate has been an important opportunity to a great supporter of the armed forces and, indeed, of hold the Government to account on their approach to the covenant, and he made a sensible and knowledgeable our service personnel, their families and veterans. Our contribution. brave servicemen and women would be right to expect a The hon. Members for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa lot from this Government, given their pre-election rhetoric, Pearce) and for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) spoke but they are not being honest. They have U-turned on a about pensions, and again I do not doubt their sincerity. pledge delivered personally by the Prime Minister to We are deeply concerned about, and looking specifically 1067 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1068 at the issue of, widows and maimed personnel in terms Huw Irranca-Davies: Far from blogs, I also quoted of pensions. The hon. Lady referred to a 40-year-old Chris Simpkins of the Royal British Legion, who said: squadron leader and how much his pension might be “The British public has shown it sees” affected, but she should know that I have drawn a the role of coroner pension from the armed forces for more than 20 years, and although she may not think it, I have managed to “as vital in ensuring bereaved Service families can have confidence in the investigations of their loved ones’ deaths. We believe it is earn a little on the way as a Member, so we need to be fundamental to the inquest process and to the fulfilment of the realistic about the issue: we cannot exempt everybody Military Covenant”. from the change to CPI from RPI. People who think we The Minister should not respond to the blogs but to the can are totally in denial about the state of the public Royal British Legion. finances, which the previous Government left to us. We have to clear up that mess, and we have no other duty Mr Robathan: I will come to that if I have time at than to do so before we deal with other matters. the end. Angela Smith rose— My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) might qualify as almost gallant in Nick Smith rose— her role in the Royal Naval Reserve. I am grateful to her for what she said. She is absolutely right that this Mr Robathan: I shall give way to the hon. Lady, Government believe in action, not words—not spin, but because she sat through the debate and did not get in. results. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston Angela Smith: The Minister is being very generous. Is (Ms Stuart) made three swift points that seemed pretty it not the case, however, that the current Government reasonable. I would love to respond and wonder if she knew about the deficit before the election? On that could write to me about them. premise, why did they make the promise that they made to the electorate? I now turn to the Front-Bench contribution by the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy). Mr Robathan: We did not appreciate quite what an I expect that he now regrets having called this debate, awful state—[Interruption.] I could point the House to because he has not come out of it with any credit. Like innumerable references to, “When we open the books, the hon. Member for Ogmore, he quoted at length the we will find out what things are like.” We did not Royal British Legion. I have here the Royal British appreciate the awfulness. We certainly did not know Legion’s initial comments on the proposed armed forces that the MOD budget for the next 10 years was overspent covenant, dated 21 January—not four weeks ago—in by £38 billion. I am not sure what promise the hon. which it says that it broadly welcomes the proposals. I Lady is alleging that we are breaking, because I cannot am afraid that one can quote selectively at any stage, see one. and Labour Members are doing so. I am afraid that the hon. Member for West Nick Smith: Will the Minister give way? Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) regurgitated the arguments that we have heard in the Select Committee Mr Robathan: Yes, but I will make this the last time. on the Armed Forces Bill, and they had no more Nick Smith: The Minister hinted that he might be resonance. The Committee has made three visits—to able to make some progress on pensions for widows and the Nottingham reserves centre, to Colchester and to for people who have suffered injury. Can he give us Headley Court—and I am disappointed that of the six some more detail on that? Labour Members on the Committee, who make so much fuss about these things, three did not come on any Mr Robathan: I have had many discussions with of those visits. representatives of the War Widows Association and the Forces Pension Society, and we are looking at particular Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to cases and how we can perhaps take this forward. I move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). cannot make any concrete commitment, but I can assure Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. the hon. Gentleman that should we make any progress Question agreed to. or change, I will let him know. Main Question accordingly put. I thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) for his contribution. He, too, The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 318. has been in receipt of a pension for a few years—a Division No. 210] [6.59 pm bigger one than mine, but there we go. My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline AYES Dinenage), although not gallant herself, is married to a Abbott, Ms Diane Barron, rh Mr Kevin gallant officer. I am grateful for her contribution, in Abrahams, Debbie Bayley, Hugh which she spoke from her experience of service family Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Beckett, rh Margaret life. She is of course absolutely right: we have to look Alexander, Heidi Begg, Dame Anne after the armed forces, and that is what we pledge to do. Ali, Rushanara Benn, rh Hilary Anderson, Mr David Benton, Mr Joe I was rather surprised when the hon. Member for Austin, Ian Berger, Luciana Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), for whom I have always Bailey, Mr Adrian Betts, Mr Clive had a bit of affection, started to quote from blogs. I Bain, Mr William Blackman-Woods, Roberta think we all read blogs from time to time, but most of Balls, rh Ed Blenkinsop, Tom the stuff that is written there is not worth repeating. Banks, Gordon Blomfield, Paul 1069 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1070

Blunkett, rh Mr David Hain, rh Mr Peter Morris, Grahame M. Slaughter, Mr Andy Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hamilton, Fabian (Easington) Smith, rh Mr Andrew Brennan, Kevin Hanson, rh Mr David Munn, Meg Smith, Angela Brown, Lyn Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Nick Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Paul Smith, Owen Brown, Mr Russell Havard, Mr Dai Murray, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Bryant, Chris Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Stringer, Graham Buck, Ms Karen Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Stuart, Ms Gisela Burden, Richard Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Byrne, rh Mr Liam Heyes, David Osborne, Sandra Tami, Mark Cairns, David Hillier, Meg Owen, Albert Thomas, Mr Gareth Campbell, Mr Alan Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa Thornberry, Emily Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodge, rh Margaret Perkins, Toby Timms, rh Stephen Caton, Martin Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Phillipson, Bridget Trickett, Jon Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hoey, Kate Pound, Stephen Turner, Karl Clark, Katy Hollobone, Mr Philip Qureshi, Yasmin Twigg, Derek Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hood, Mr Jim Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Twigg, Stephen Coaker, Vernon Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Vaz, rh Keith Coffey, Ann Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Rachel Vaz, Valerie Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Walley, Joan Cooper, Rosie Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Watson, Mr Tom Cooper, rh Yvette Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Weir, Mr Mike Corbyn, Jeremy Jackson, Glenda Robertson, Angus Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Crausby, Mr David James, Mrs Siân Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Whitehead, Dr Alan Creagh, Mary C. Rotheram, Steve Wicks, rh Malcolm Creasy, Stella Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Lindsay Williams, Hywel Cruddas, Jon Johnson, rh Alan Ruane, Chris Williamson, Chris Cryer, John Johnson, Diana Ruddock, rh Joan Winnick, Mr David Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham Sarwar, Anas Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Seabeck, Alison Wishart, Pete Cunningham, Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Shannon, Jim Wood, Mike Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan Sharma, Mr Virendra Woodcock, John Danczuk, Simon Jowell, rh Tessa Sheerman, Mr Barry Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheridan, Jim Wright, Mr Iain David, Mr Wayne Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin De Piero, Gloria Kendall, Liz Simpson, David Tellers for the Ayes: Denham, rh Mr John Khan, rh Sadiq Singh, Mr Marsha Phil Wilson and Dobbin, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Mr David Hamilton Dobson, rh Frank Lavery, Ian Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Lazarowicz, Mark NOES M. Leslie, Chris Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lewis, Mr Ivan Adams, Nigel Bridgen, Andrew Afriyie, Adam Brine, Mr Steve Doran, Mr Frank Lloyd, Tony Aldous, Peter Brokenshire, James Dowd, Jim Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Alexander, rh Danny Brooke, Annette Doyle, Gemma Long, Naomi Amess, Mr David Browne, Mr Jeremy Dromey, Jack Lucas, Ian Andrew, Stuart Bruce, Fiona Dugher, Michael MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Eagle, Ms Angela Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bruce, rh Malcolm MacShane, rh Mr Denis Eagle, Maria Bacon, Mr Richard Buckland, Mr Robert Mactaggart, Fiona Efford, Clive Baker, Norman Burley, Mr Aidan Mahmood, Mr Khalid Elliott, Julie Baker, Steve Burns, Conor Mahmood, Shabana Ellman, Mrs Louise Baldry, Tony Burns, rh Mr Simon Engel, Natascha Mann, John Baldwin, Harriett Burstow, Paul Evans, Chris Marsden, Mr Gordon Barclay, Stephen Burt, Alistair Farrelly, Paul McCabe, Steve Barker, Gregory Burt, Lorely Field, rh Mr Frank McCann, Mr Michael Beith, rh Sir Alan Byles, Dan Fitzpatrick, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Benyon, Richard Cable, rh Vince Flello, Robert McClymont, Gregg Beresford, Sir Paul Cairns, Alun Flint, rh Caroline McCrea, Dr William Berry, Jake Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Flynn, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Bingham, Andrew Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Fovargue, Yvonne McDonnell, John Binley, Mr Brian Cash, Mr William Francis, Dr Hywel McFadden, rh Mr Pat Birtwistle, Gordon Chishti, Rehman Gardiner, Barry McGovern, Alison Blackman, Bob Chope, Mr Christopher Gilmore, Sheila McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Blackwood, Nicola Clappison, Mr James Glindon, Mrs Mary McKechin, Ann Blunt, Mr Crispin Clark, rh Greg Goggins, rh Paul McKinnell, Catherine Boles, Nick Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Goodman, Helen Michael, rh Alun Bottomley, Sir Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Greatrex, Tom Miliband, rh David Bradley, Karen Coffey, Dr Thérèse Green, Kate Miller, Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Collins, Damian Greenwood, Lilian Moon, Mrs Madeleine Brake, Tom Colvile, Oliver Griffith, Nia Morden, Jessica Bray, Angie Cox, Mr Geoffrey Gwynne, Andrew Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Brazier, Mr Julian Crabb, Stephen 1071 Military Covenant16 FEBRUARY 2011 Military Covenant 1072

Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Smith, Henry Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Smith, Julian Davey, Mr Edward Hemming, John Morris, James Soames, Nicholas Davies, Glyn Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Soubry, Anna Davies, Philip Herbert, rh Nick Mowat, David Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Davis, rh Mr David Hinds, Damian Mulholland, Greg Spencer, Mr Mark de Bois, Nick Hoban, Mr Mark Mundell, rh David Stephenson, Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Hollingbery, George Munt, Tessa Stevenson, John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Mr Adam Murray, Sheryll Stewart, Bob Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Stewart, Iain Dorries, Nadine Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Streeter, Mr Gary Doyle-Price, Jackie Howarth, Mr Gerald Newmark, Mr Brooks Stride, Mel Duddridge, James Howell, John Newton, Sarah Stunell, Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Nokes, Caroline Sturdy, Julian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Huppert, Dr Julian Nuttall, Mr David Swales, Ian Iain Hurd, Mr Nick O’Brien, Mr Stephen Swayne, Mr Desmond Dunne, Mr Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Mr Matthew Swinson, Jo Ellis, Michael James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric Swire, rh Mr Hugo Ellison, Jane Javid, Sajid Opperman, Guy Syms, Mr Robert Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jenkin, Mr Bernard Osborne, rh Mr George Tapsell, Sir Peter Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Gareth Paice, rh Mr James Teather, Sarah Eustice, George Johnson, Joseph Parish, Neil Thurso, John Evans, Graham Jones, Andrew Patel, Priti Timpson, Mr Edward Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tomlinson, Justin Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Tredinnick, David Fabricant, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, Mike Truss, Elizabeth Farron, Tim Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Turner, Mr Andrew Featherstone, Lynne Kirby, Simon Percy, Andrew Uppal, Paul Field, Mr Mark Knight, rh Mr Greg Perry, Claire Vaizey, Mr Edward Foster, rh Mr Don Kwarteng, Kwasi Phillips, Stephen Vickers, Martin Fox,rhDrLiam Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pickles, rh Mr Eric Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Pincher, Christopher Walker, Mr Charles Freeman, George Lancaster, Mark Poulter, Dr Daniel Walker, Mr Robin Freer, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Fullbrook, Lorraine Latham, Pauline Pritchard, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Fuller, Richard Laws, rh Mr David Pugh, John Ward, Mr David Gale, Mr Roger Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Watkinson, Angela Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Weatherley, Mike Gauke, Mr David Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Webb, Steve George, Andrew Lefroy, Jeremy Reid, Mr Alan Wharton, James Gibb, Mr Nick Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wheeler, Heather Gilbert, Stephen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robathan, rh Mr Andrew White, Chris Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Hugh Wiggin, Bill Glen, John Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence Willetts, rh Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Liddell-Grainger, Mr Rogerson, Dan Williams, Roger Goodwill, Mr Robert Ian Rudd, Amber Williams, Stephen Gove, rh Michael Lidington, rh Mr David Russell, Bob Williamson, Gavin Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rutley, David Willott, Jenny Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen Sanders, Mr Adrian Wilson, Mr Rob Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Sandys, Laura Wollaston, Dr Sarah Green, Damian Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee Wright, Jeremy Greening, Justine Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew Wright, Simon Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Yeo, Mr Tim Griffiths, Andrew Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Young, rh Sir George Gummer, Ben Main, Mrs Anne Shepherd, Mr Richard Zahawi, Nadhim Gyimah, Mr Sam Maude, rh Mr Francis Simmonds, Mark Hague, rh Mr William May, rh Mrs Theresa Simpson, Mr Keith Tellers for the Noes: Halfon, Robert Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris Mr Shailesh Vara and Hames, Duncan McCartney, Jason Smith, Miss Chloe Mark Hunter Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Karl Hammond, Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne Question accordingly negatived. Hancock, Matthew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (TODAY) Harper, Mr Mark Mercer, Patrick Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Order No. 15), Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria That, at this day’s sitting, (1) the Motion in the name of Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Sir George Young relating to Adjournment of the House (Today) Harvey, Nick Milton, Anne and (2) consideration of any Lords Messages that may be received Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—(Sir George Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Young.) Heald, Mr Oliver Morgan, Nicky Question agreed to. 1073 Military Covenant 16 FEBRUARY 2011 1074

DEFERRED DIVISONS Parliamentary Voting System and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Constituencies Bill Order No. 41A(3)), Consideration of Lords message That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Sir George Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): A message Youngrelating to Adjournment of the House (Today).—(Mr Heath.) has been received from the Lords on the Parliamentary Question agreed to. Voting System and Constituencies Bill. Under the Order of the House of 15 February, any message from the Lords relating to the Bill may be considered forthwith, without any Question put. The text of the Lords insistence on amendments 1 and 8, and reasons, is available in the Vote Office as Bill 152. A paper is also available in the Vote Office setting out the motion, which I now call on the Minister to move. Lords message considered forthwith (Programme Order, 15 February).

Clause 1

REFERENDUM ON THE ALTERNATIVE VOTE SYSTEM

7.14 pm The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper): I beg to move that this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their amendments 1 and 8, but proposes amendment (a) in lieu. Yesterday the House debated whether to oppose including in the Bill Lord Rooker’s amendments specifying that if less than 40% of the electorate vote in the referendum the result should not be binding. We have accepted an amendment in lieu. We do not accept that there should be a threshold in the referendum, and the amendment does not propose one. It simply states that the Electoral Commission must publish information about the turnout. If we were simply to oppose Lord Rooker’s threshold amendment again without this amendment, and were their Lordships to reject our position, the rules on double insistence would result in the loss of the Bill. We have tabled our amendment to avoid that eventuality. I explained in some detail yesterday why the Government disagreed with their lordships’ proposal, both on principle and on the basis of the practical difficulties identified by both the Government and the Electoral Commission in giving it effect. I said then that I considered those arguments compelling, and the House agreed. When the motion to disagree was voted on, it was carried by 317 votes to 247, a majority of 70. That was on the back of a conclusive rejection of the proposals for a threshold made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) on Report. I think that we made our view clear, and by a clear margin. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I understand the Minister’s point about the technical reasons for the Government’s amendment, but does he not owe it to the House to explain what he considers to be the benefits of the amendment if we are to vote on it? Mr Harper: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will give the details as I proceed with my speech. If he does not think that I have done so satisfactorily, he can intervene again. I should say at this point that, although I shall attempt to be generous in giving way, I also want to ensure that other Members have an opportunity to contribute to the debate, so I may not be quite as generous as I was yesterday. 1075 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1076 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Having studied the Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, amendment, I trust that the Minister will not spend because the threshold sets up an incentive for one side another 25 to 30 minutes going through all the stuff to campaign for people to stay at home. As democrats, about the Electoral Commission. We want to get down we should all be arguing for people to turn out to vote, to the real stuff. be it yes or no. That should apply no matter what side of the argument we are on, and Government Members Mr Harper: If my hon. Friend will allow me, I will have been very frank about the fact that we will be make some progress. campaigning on different sides. The House of Lords has now asked us to consider the Kevin Brennan: Will the Minister give way? matter again, after voting to reinstate the original provisions. It is only right, therefore, that I briefly report the Mr Harper: I have already given way to the hon. reasons that it gave for doing so, and explain why I do Gentleman. not believe that those reasons are sufficient to change the clearly expressed view of the House of Commons. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Only once. First, though, let me deal briefly with the suggestion made by the Lords that it was necessary for this House Mr Harper: Once was enough. Let me make some to consider the issue again because we had not given it progress. proper scrutiny. Several hon. Members rose— The House of Commons has debated the issue of thresholds on a number of occasions, and has voted Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. conclusively against the principle twice. We specifically Mr Brennan, the Minister has given way once and he considered the merit of Lord Rooker’s proposal. During has said that he is not going to give way again. the Lords debate, Lord Falconer suggested that I had misrepresented it, but I thought that I had made myself Mr Harper: I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker. clear when I said that his amendment sought to make A related point made in the other place was the the referendum result indicative should turnout fall argument that Lord Rooker’s threshold was appropriate below 40%, rather than ruling out implementing the because the question being decided in the referendum result altogether. My point was that this proposal is a was constitutionally significant. My argument is that threshold nevertheless, and I make no apology for making we are having the referendum because this is an important the case against it yesterday. issue—it is about how we are elected. It is not right that we make that decision, because the people should decide Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): The Minister how Members are elected to this House. has just referred to two occasions on which the House has debated thresholds. Both times, the amendments Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): under discussion had been tabled by me. I believe that What is meant by “the people”? Is there any size of thresholds are appropriate in the context of such matters turnout that the Minister would regard as not really as referendums. However, I accept that my amendments constituting a verdict of the British people? Is it not were defeated by the House of Commons, and that the sensible for a fundamental constitutional and political will of the House of Commons must prevail. The change such as this to have a minimum turnout threshold House of Lords should accept that too. to warrant and justify it? Mr Harper: Our system does not have a minimum Mr Harper: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s support. turnout threshold for elections and we do not have a I am sure that her clarion call will be heard at the other tradition of thresholds for the 10 referendums that have end of the building. been held in this country. Only one of those referendums This morning Lord Wallace made the important had a turnout threshold and its effect was to thwart the point that when a referendum poses a yes/no question, a clearly expressed will of the people. It may have been turnout threshold effectively makes every abstention a something I agreed with, but it meant that that issue no vote. A number of noble Lords supporting Lord festered for another decade. Rooker’s amendment suggested that that would not be the case with the kind of threshold that he had proposed. Kevin Brennan rose— Let me make clear that it would. Under his amendment, abstentions would still mean that a yes vote might not Mr Harper: I have already given way to the hon. be upheld. The amendment would still create an incentive Gentleman and I am going to make some progress. for those who favour a no vote to stay at home. Those There are some perverse mathematical effects of such who favour a no vote might well think that abstaining a barrier. As I said yesterday, this Lords amendment could create a low enough turnout to see off a yes vote. provides that if 39% of the electorate turned out the result would not be binding, even if 75% of those voting Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) were in favour of change, whereas if 41% of people (SNP): Is not one of the problems with their lordships’ turned out the result would be binding, even if far fewer threshold that it invalidates only one of the options—the people actually voted in favour of the proposal. In the alternative vote system? If the referendum turnout was first scenario, 30% of the electorate might have voted under the threshold, both the first-past-the-post and for change but be denied it, whereas in the second only AVoptions should, in fairness, be invalidated—if indeed 21% might need to vote for AV to see it implemented. we accept the principle of a threshold, which we should Why should that be the case? I have heard no arguments, not. If we do accept it, either result should be invalidated either in this House or in the other place, to explain how in such circumstances. that would be fair. 1077 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1078 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Kevin Brennan: Will the Minister give way? Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): As I said yesterday—I know that I do not carry the whole House with this first Mr Harper: I am not going to give way to the hon. sentence, but perhaps I will carry more of it later—I Gentleman. support the alternative vote and will be voting yes in the I know that some Members favour this Lords amendment referendum. However, the way in which the Deputy because this referendum is binding, but the Government Prime Minister has conducted this piece of legislation, have made it very clear that we want to offer the people or rather the way in which he has not conducted it, is the chance to make a decision. If they make that steadily putting me off the idea. It is an enormous decision, it would not be right for the matter to come shame that he does not have the courage to be in the back to this House and for us to say, “We have heard Chamber this evening even to represent his own view. I what you said and we are going to ignore it.” That say to Liberal Democrat friends who would like this would not be right, however much we might not like legislation to pass, that it would be a good idea to what the people have told us. We accept that when we progress in a slightly different way. stand for election and we should accept it in a referendum. There have been many misunderstandings about the nature of the threshold that Lord Rooker suggests Kevin Brennan rose— should be introduced, which their lordships agreed to by a significant majority earlier today. Some think that Mr Harper: I am not going to give way. the threshold would act in a way that other thresholds The key arguments against the threshold remain as have acted elsewhere—in other words, that it would compelling as ever. I have addressed some of the points make it impossible for the Government then to bring made by their lordships during their debate today.Although forward the alternative vote. That is expressly not what they are entitled to ask us to consider the matter again, it does and I am afraid that the Minister rather elided I do not believe that the points they raised change the his interpretation of the Rooker amendment yesterday balance of argument. evening. It is absolutely clear. As Lord Rooker said in this afternoon’s debate in the other place, “I have said Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): all along that if the turnout was less than 40%, the Does my hon. Friend not recognise that there is a House could decide to implement AV and I would not difference between an ordinary election and constitutional argue with that.” change? A common feature of many constitutions is The simple point that we are making is that because having thresholds for constitutional change. Just because this is not a fatal, kill-all threshold, but would mean we have an unwritten constitution, that does not mean that Parliament would have to think again, it puts the that we are absolved of any responsibility to show that decision in the right and proper place. Everyone who there is a reasonable threshold for constitutional change. supports the alternative vote has some version of a If there were only a 10% turnout in London, where threshold in their mind, whether it is 1%, 5% or 10%. there are no forthcoming local elections, would that really constitute a valid result? Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab) rose—

Mr Harper: I have two points to make. First, on my Mr MacNeil rose— hon. Friend’s last point, we are talking about a national Chris Bryant: I will give way in a moment. Of course referendum and the important thing is to get people to we do not expect there to be only 10% or 15% voting in vote across the whole of the United Kingdom. Secondly, elections and we do not expect that to be the threshold we do not have a tradition in this country of thresholds in elections later this year, but there will be a significant for referendums either. Ten referendums have been held difference between the turnout in England, Wales, Scotland and only in the devolution referendum in the 1970s was and Northern Ireland. I say to Government Members a threshold inserted—the rest of the referendums had who are concerned about how English people view the no such provision. He is being too pessimistic, because way in which the House transacts its business that if the people will engage with this question. However, it would votes of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland end up be wrong to thwart a clear decision—a yes vote—on the effectively rigging the vote across the whole United basis of the sort of mathematical formula that I have Kingdom because they are having other, substantial, just set out. It could have quite perverse results and give national elections on the same day, I think that will an incentive for people to stay at home. bring the decision into disrepute, and that is a problem. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con) rose— Paul Farrelly: Just before the Minister summarily sat down, he said that if there were a clear decision, it Kevin Brennan rose— would be wrong to thwart it in this way, but he did not define what he meant by a clear decision. Will my hon. Mr Harper: I am just going to deal with the point Friend ask the Minister to give the House a definition? the hon. Gentleman raised earlier. I am asking hon. Members on both sides of the House to disagree with Chris Bryant: I am afraid that I have been asking the amendments 1 and 8. In their place, we have proposed Minister to provide clear definitions and clarity for an amendment in lieu, which provides: some time but we certainly did not get much of that yesterday. My point is fairly simple. The amendment “Following the referendum, the Electoral Commission must— that has come from their lordships would not kill off (a) publish the most accurate estimate that it is reasonably the decision that might come through if fewer than possible to make of the turnout in each of England, 40% of voters voted in the referendum in May, it simply Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland”. means that Parliament would have to take cognisance Information on turnout is useful and important; a of the decision, so it would be an advisory referendum turnout threshold is not. rather than an implementing referendum. 1079 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1080 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Is it not sometimes be listened to. Whatever system we end up the case that the amendment was originally carried by with for the two Chambers, I would simply say that as in one vote in the Lords and was today carried by a most other countries in Europe that have a parliamentary majority of 62, including 27 Conservatives? Does not system, there will be a second Chamber with a particular that show the strength of feeling in the Lords about the concern for constitutional matters. necessity for this modification in the Bill? If the Bill had made progress as the result of pre- legislative scrutiny, with a Joint Committee considering Chris Bryant: I believe my hon. Friend was in the all of its proposals, or for that matter if there had been Chamber yesterday when we had an interesting moment. two separate Bills, one on the AV referendum and The Minister effectively advanced his own threshold another on parliamentary constituencies, I would agree argument, which was that winning by only one vote in wholeheartedly with the right hon. Gentleman. However, the House of Lords somehow did not really matter. I I believe that the Government have abused every single think their lordships listened to what he said and decided constitutional convention in driving the Bill forward, so that they would introduce a threshold of their own—a I am afraid I am not with him on this occasion. 60-vote majority—which they surpassed quite easily. I am grateful to the Minister for helping us win more Mr MacNeil rose— significantly in the House of Lords earlier today. I hope that his contribution this evening will do that again. Chris Bryant: And now for the hon. Gentleman.

7.30 pm Mr MacNeil: Surely if a threshold is in place, it is an incentive not to participate. I hope that the Labour Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): One of the key Front Benchers do not want to create such an incentive. arguments being made is that AV would mean that all Surely it is those who care who will vote. Those who are Members of the House would have 50% of the vote, or happy either way will probably not vote and will accept close to it, and therefore have legitimacy. Does it not whatever those who care deliver. If the threshold that follow that if there is a miserly turnout in the referendum, the hon. Gentleman wants were not reached, would it will not have legitimacy and the matter should come that not invalidate both first past the post and AV, not back to the House for us to debate whether the result just one of them? should stand? Chris Bryant: I knew the hon. Gentleman was going Chris Bryant: It is a particular irony for those who to make a silly point, because he made the same silly advocate the alternative vote, as I do, which in the point earlier. We have to have elections to this House, majority of situations will mean that an MP will have and they will either be under the first-past-the-post secured 50% of the vote— system or, if the referendum question is carried, under Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the AV. I therefore do not accept his argument. I also point hon. Gentleman give way? out to him that I believe there will be very different turnouts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland from Mr MacNeil Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that in England. That is why I have never supported holding the referendum on the same day as other elections Chris Bryant: I will in a moment. I am still dealing there. with this question. I know that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) is going to make a silly Kevin Brennan: To return to the amendment in lieu point, and I will let him make it in a couple of moments. that the Minister has proposed, does my hon. Friend It is suggested that we are advancing a system that agree that it effectively constitutes a direct insult to the guarantees that the vast majority of MPs will have other House, first because of its puerile nature and the 50% of the vote—some of us already achieve that—but fact that it is totally unrelated to the amendments from then it is said that that provision should be delivered on the other place, and secondly because of the Minister’s perhaps a 30% or 35% vote. cursory explanation of it, which gave the game away? Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): Will the hon. Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is, as always, spot on, Gentleman give way? and I will come to the Government amendment in lieu after I have made one significant point. Implementing Sir Alan Beith rose— referendums are fundamentally dangerous. All too often in other democracies, such referendums have been a Chris Bryant: I will give way to the right hon. Member way of circumventing the process of parliamentary for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) first, because democracy. That is a particularly dangerous way of he asked first. doing business under coalition Governments. I do not Sir Alan Beith: I am grateful. If the hon. Gentleman believe that implementing referendums is a good idea, loses the vote in the Commons tonight, does he think except for when there is a settled constitutional view the unelected House is then morally entitled to defy the that has been established on the basis of consensus, expressed will of this House? which is certainly not the situation with the AVreferendum. Everybody has a threshold in their own mind, but the Chris Bryant: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I truth is that the Government are proceeding as they are have advocated an elected House of Lords for a very because they know perfectly well that if they were to long time, and that is still my position. However, many introduce a stand-alone Bill to introduce the alternative people, including himself when he was on the Opposition vote, it would not be carried in the House or in the Benches, have argued that the sagacity and wisdom of House of Lords. That is the profound danger with the people down the other end of the building should way in which the Government are trying to proceed. 1081 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1082 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): I apologise that I whole. We are being asked to reject that provision. I am was not here at the commencement of these proceedings—I no longer going down the route of my original proposal, got caught short in the gymnasium. which one of their Lordships referred to as “the fatal I put it to my hon. Friend that it scarcely lies in the amendment”. I propose, for all the reasons that have mouths of the Conservatives to challenge the authority been so ably put forward this evening, to follow what of the other place when they were happy to see that the House of Lords said. authority used to the greatest extent on these provisions There is no reference to thresholds in this coalition just before the election when they vetoed their inclusion agreement—none whatever. None of the political parties from the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. expressed any genuine manifesto commitment to the alternative vote and no commitment whatever to the Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend is absolutely threshold. Given that the Bill purports to provide for a right. In addition, the Liberal Democrats and the fair electoral system with preference votes, one would Conservatives so respect the House of Lords that they have thought that its proponents would at least have the have decided to pack it with pliant Members so that decency and common sense to give the electorate a fair they can start getting better results in votes. I praise deal—[Interruption.] Yes, and the courage, as one of those Members of the House of Lords, including Baroness my hon. Friends says. I thought that the Liberal Democrats Trumpington, who has never voted against the Conservative believed in fairness and constitutional propriety, but I Whip, and who is notwithstanding a very splendid was mightily mistaken. woman, who today decided to vote for the amendment in the name of Lord Rooker. Mr Jenkin: Can we dispense with this argument that I support the alternative vote, but to me it is an even any kind of threshold somehow provides an incentive more important principle that the views of the British for the no campaign to campaign for people to stay at people, completely and definitively established, are enacted. home? The truth is that this is simply a test of whether That is why Lord Rooker’s threshold is appropriate. there are enough people motivated in favour of change to justify it. If enough people are not prepared to vote Finally, the Minister’s amendment in lieu has absolutely for change, why should it take place? That seems to me no value. It would mean merely that the process that is to provide the reason why a threshold should exist for already adopted by the Electoral Commission would be every referendum. Incidentally, when the Conservatives implemented. He knows that it is a chimera—the smile were in opposition, we voted for a threshold in every without the Cheshire cat. referendum.

Mr Cash: I entirely endorse the final remarks of the Mr Cash: I agree with my hon. Friend and point out hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—the that no European country other than France does not Government amendment in lieu is a load of rubbish. have a threshold. Over the generations, we in this House It is important to get across what is really going on have always regarded constitutional matters as of such here. In the context of the referendum, the Conservative fundamental importance as to require a free vote and to party is being led like a lamb to the slaughter. The rule out the sort of programming and guillotining that reality is that the referendum is entirely to do with we are seeing here. Yesterday, I had a mere two minutes Liberal party aspirations as expressed in the coalition in which to express the arguments on my amendment. agreement. I have here an extract from the right hon. I heartily dislike this Bill and I believe that its effect Member for Deauville—[Laughter.] I meant the right will be exceedingly damaging to the Conservative party hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws), who might as well and exceedingly damaging to our national interest. I have come from Deauville. He quotes the Secretary of strongly urge my hon. Friends to vote for the threshold State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. arrangements proposed by the noble Lords. I believe Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), as saying: that doing so would be in the interests of the Conservative “Our historic mission is to create a British Liberal party whose party, its individual members and its councillors who influence will be embedded in our politics through a reformed are soon coming up for local elections, as well as in the voting system – a Liberal party capable of dealing with both national interest of the electorate as a whole. other parties.” Other Members wish to speak, so I shall bring my The reality, therefore, is that what lies at the heart of remarks immediately to an end. The Government should this debate is not the rubbish that we have heard from be careful about what they wish for because it might the Minister on the Electoral Commission, but the glue come true. that holds the coalition together. I pay tribute to the noble Lord Rooker and the other Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): Lords and Ladies who made such magnificent speeches The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex this morning, which I had the privilege to witness. They (Mr Jenkin), who intervened a few moments ago, is of are right that the Bill provides for a binding referendum, course absolutely right. The Conservatives have voted and that the essence of the argument is that the Bill is a for thresholds in referendums whenever they felt it constitutional issue, because it proposes to change our suited them and whenever they thought it would be to constitution in a fundamental way for the first time. the disadvantage of a Labour Government. Indeed, I believe that 40% is a reasonable test. It is accepted Scottish devolution was delayed by 20 years because the by all the constitutional authorities—including, ironically, Conservative party voted for a threshold on the referendum Vernon Bogdanor, who was the Prime Minister’s own on Scottish devolution in 1979. tutor. This threshold of 40%, which has come down to It is appropriate that this motion should stand in the us in an amendment from the House of Lords, is name of the leader of the Liberal Democrats because reasonable and fair with respect to the electorate as a this entire Bill is about the Liberal Democrats. Anybody 1083 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1084 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill who has the opportunity should read the Nuffield study, sure that they will not direct their supporters to use “The British General Election of 2010”, which makes it their second preference against the Labour party, for absolutely clear in a masterly piece of research that the instance. In those circumstances, is it not reasonable to sticking-point on whether the Liberal Democrats would have a threshold, so that we can be certain that the go into a coalition with the Conservatives was whether British people have expressed a clear opinion? the referendum that we are debating this evening would be introduced by a coalition Government. What the Sir Gerald Kaufman: We do not know what the turnout Government are doing—I rarely agree with the hon. will be on 5 May. What we do know, in my constituency, Member for Stone (Mr Cash), but he is absolutely right is that we will murder the Liberal Democrats in the this evening—is rigging the British political system with local elections, whatever the threshold. My hon. Friend’s this Bill. The Bill was introduced, and is being railroaded point is relevant, because the issue is not whether one is through, to placate 8% of the House of Commons; for or against AV. The debate is not about that; it is 92% of the House of Commons do not want it. about whether we seek to appease a small minority of the House of Commons by rigging our precious electoral 7.45 pm system, which has served us well. Mr MacNeil: rose— Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): This is an Paul Farrelly rose— extraordinary occasion in that the unelected House of Parliament is, with absolutely no sense of irony, telling Sir Gerald Kaufman: I will give way in a moment, but the elected half of Parliament how to conduct a ballot. I want to proceed on this point. The simple principle is that in elections and referendums When I was shadow Home Secretary, I negotiated it is the people who turn up who decide the result, not with the then Conservative Home Secretary, Leon Brittan, the people who do not turn up. about a Representation of the People Bill—that is what In my brief remarks last night I recalled many election Bills dealing with the political system and elections in results in Bristol—I am sure you would have found this this country used to be called— which he was introducing. very interesting, Madam Deputy Speaker, had you been The dog’s breakfast that is before us this evening is a in the Chair—when the turnout had fallen below 40%. I misrepresentation of the people Bill, based on an obligation have since looked up a few more statistics. For the to placate the self-interest of the third party in the European Parliament elections in 2009, only 34% of the House. There is no doubt whatever about that. British public turned out to vote. I say in all candour to Mr MacNeil rose— Conservative coalition colleagues that I do not recall any of them saying at the time that that was not a valid Sir Gerald Kaufman: I will give way in a moment, but election result. In fact, I recall them saying that the I want to complete this segment of my argument, Conservative party had won that election. taking into account the limited time. This is a partisan Bill. All the Representation of the Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Is the People Bills that went through the House of Commons, hon. Gentleman not at all concerned that, having listened from when I first entered the House, were agreed between to the arguments he deployed last night, the Lords the Government and the Opposition—I negotiated with majority was 62 rather one? Leon Brittan even down to the threshold for retaining a deposit—but not now. The Conservatives do not want Stephen Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who the Bill. We are dealing not with the question of whether is my Political and Constitutional Reform Committee we are for or against the alternative vote; we are dealing colleague, for that intervention, but I think he can with the question of whether a fundamental aspect of predict my answer. What disturbs me about the response our British political system should be decided not on its from their Lordships last night is that it ignores the will principles, or on whether it is appropriate and admirable of the elected House. Our fellow Select Committee for the country, but on whether it suits the interests of a colleague, the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), minority party, which wants to go on having coalitions, got that balance exactly right. as that is the only way in which its useless Members The Welsh Assembly election in 2003 had a turnout would be able to sit on the Government Front Bench. of only 38%. I ask my Labour friend, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is an ally in arguing Mr MacNeil: The right hon. Gentleman referred to for a yes vote should we have the referendum in Wales, rigged referendums, but would a threshold not rig a does he really think the Government of Rhodri Morgan referendum by blocking a change that the majority of who were elected in 2003 had no validity because only those taking part wanted? 38% of his constituents turned out? Does the right hon. Sir Gerald Kaufman: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) point, but I do not necessarily agree with him. think the Labour administration of Manchester city council, elected on a 27% turnout in 2008, has no Paul Farrelly: The hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) legitimacy whatever? That same question could be asked quoted not the Member for Deauville, or even Trouville, of Sheffield with 36%, or Leeds—a Liberal Democrat- but the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws). Does Conservative coalition—with 35.7%. my right hon. Friend recognise that those of us who are more sympathetic to AV have legitimate concerns about Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): In its operation in practice because of the behaviour of the general elections the turnout is normally 70% or more. Liberal Democrats since the general election. They talk Is it right that that 70% of people should have their of five more years of the coalition, but we cannot be voting system changed by fewer than 40%? 1085 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1086 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Stephen Williams: If we were at a different point in When the Lords last voted on the proposal the the electoral cycle, we could be having this referendum majority was only one, but today it was 62—including on the day of a general election. We may well have a 27 Conservative Back Benchers and, in many respects referendum on future changes on the date of the next more important, Cross Benchers. They do not have a general election in May 2015. However, that is four and particular party view, but it is understandable that they a half years away, so we are having the referendum should be concerned that if there is to be a vote on a rather sooner, and everyone who is conducting the change to the electoral system there should be credibility arguments about this threshold knows that, other than in the turnout. The provision is not binding. The point in a general election, the turnout is likely to be lower has been made on a number of occasions: if turnout is than 40%. That is why I have quoted the statistics I have. less than 40%, it does not mean that there will not be another referendum. The Government and Parliament Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? can reconsider the position. What if turnout is less than 30%? Will we really work on the assumption that that Stephen Williams: The hon. Gentleman has made a gives sufficient credibility and is sufficient justification lot of interventions, and other Members wish to get in. for changing the electoral system? When an election is over—you will recall the first The Minister said that if there was a threshold, it general election I fought was against you, Madam Deputy would be an incentive for the no campaign. Surely it Speaker—and the result is in, the people have spoken. would be an incentive for the yes campaign. If the yes As democrats, none of us says the people have spoken people are so keen on change, it is up to them to but with a caveat; we sit down and accept the result. On campaign as hard as possible to persuade the electorate this occasion, I say that the voters should have the final of their case. The Government have put through most word in a referendum—the voters who turn up to of the measures in the Bill. They should show some vote—and on this matter their elected representatives generosity and consideration for the strength of feeling. should have the final word. They should not be so obstinate. [HON.MEMBERS: “Be nice.”] There would be no harm at all in the Government Mr Winnick: I am not going to beat about the bush. I showing a less obstinate spirit and recognising the strength am not in favour of the change. I am not going to of feeling both in this place and next door. pretend I am and put forward various reasons why the If there was a free vote in the House of Commons, Lords amendment should be accepted. If I had any this measure would be overwhelmingly rejected. doubts at the beginning—I must confess that at times I did consider the possibility of a change in the electoral Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): system—the way this Government have gone about The Government give as their reason for disagreeing: their business has certainly persuaded me to support “Because the outcome of the referendum should be determined the no campaign. by those who vote in it and should not depend on how many do An article in today’s Evening Standard by a former not vote.” editor of The Spectator makes a valid point about how I challenge that. I do not accept it. One of the reasons little interest there is in changing the electoral system; why I challenge the process is that we are under a there is very little enthusiasm for that. As I asked guillotine. During the whole passage of the Bill we have yesterday, where is the pressure? Where are the letters been guillotined. Their lordships are part of Parliament and e-mails? Where are the people coming to our surgeries and therefore used to be considered custodians of the and saying, “This is the most crucial issue of all”? It is constitution, so that we in our party passion might not important to bear in mind the fact that there would force through something that altered the balance of the have been no possibility of such a referendum if the constitution. I oppose the motion for that reason. Conservatives had a working majority; indeed, they would be arguing the opposite of what the Minister was The Bill is a major constitutional change. No one has saying. argued otherwise. It will change the voting system. We have almost universal suffrage. Everyone is entitled to I do not want to eat my words. On many occasions, vote. If they choose not to exercise— when I was sitting on the Government Benches, I said that the view of the elected Chamber should prevail. I do not deny that I said it, and I cannot say that I have Stephen Williams: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? drastically changed my mind. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has made the Mr Shepherd: I shall not, if the hon. Gentleman will point that the Conservatives were only too willing to forgive me. We have so little time and others want to allow the unelected Chamber to overturn the decision speak. of the Commons when there was a Labour Government. We have universal suffrage so if a proposition is put I have no desire to eat my words, but on a major to us, I shall take the older course of action, which the constitutional issue the Government should be willing hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) hinted to listen, even more so when we are talking about a at. Those who seek change from a settled position have voting system that has been in operation for a long time the right to advocate it in a referendum, but those who and there is so little evidence of a desire for change. As are not convinced about change are not negligible. They my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, are part of the equation and their very reluctance to Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) said, the only reason vote was normally taken, in an older tradition, as why the measure is being introduced is the coalition. acquiescence in the existing arrangements—that is, they There is no other reason whatever. There is certainly no did not step forward and seek change by the exercise of enthusiasm for it in the Conservative party, either on their vote. That was a profound and reasonable position the Back or Front Benches. to adopt. 1087 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1088 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Those who want change have the opportunity in a and reasonable position and in keeping with the traditions referendum to vote for it. Those who do not vote have of our constitution that referendums are advisory and not indicated consent, so the level of consent can be not binding, particularly when turnout is so low. very low indeed in the context of the universal suffrage The amendment that we are sending down to the of our country. Dismissively, the Government say that House of Lords is an insult to the other place. The the outcome is not to be determined by those who do Minister’s puerile explanation of it and the cursory way not vote. he dealt with the amendment that he is now asking us to vote for was a complete insult to our intelligence and 8pm that of the public. The question that I originally asked those on the I am afraid that when one lifts a stone in this place, Labour Front Bench was about the no figure at which procedurally what one sees underneath is sometimes they thought there was legitimacy in the number of quite unpleasant. Constitutionally, the Minister had to those who had voted. I am glad that the Labour Front- table an amendment, but instead of putting down a Bench team changed its view on that. I am grateful to serious amendment that attempted to meet the House the noble Lord Rooker for his amendment. I am grateful of Lords somewhere along the line of compromise, he to those Conservatives, many of whom I have served tabled the parliamentary equivalent of a colouring-in with and disagreed with over the past 30 years, who book; he had to fill it in with something and so produced stood up and were prepared to be counted. It is appalling this puerile and meaningless amendment. It is an insult that the constitution of Britain is held in the hands of to the other place and to our intelligence. They sit there so few people, determined by a golden image, the Liberal- on the Front Bench, hairy man and smooth man, Conservative coalition agreement. The measure does abusing our constitution. The Government should try not even reflect what was contained in that agreement, to meet the other place somewhere on the spectrum of yet we are meddling with our constitution. I urge the compromise. That would have been the reasonable thing House to accept what the Lords have said in their to do and in line with our constitution. reasoned thoughts. As someone who will vote yes to AVin the forthcoming referendum and encourage as many people as possible Kevin Brennan: Like my hon. Friend the Member for to vote, I think that the idea that this House should not Rhondda (Chris Bryant), I support AVand will vote yes even have the constitutional right to look at the outcome in the referendum. of the referendum if only a very small number of Hon. Members might wonder about the Minister’s people vote is an insult to democracy. desperate desire to sit down without explaining the amendment that he is asking us to send back to the Mrs Laing: The arguments of Lord Lamont and his House of Lords. He knows that in the other place colleagues in the other place are absolutely right, as was Members rightly think that this House has not properly everything the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton considered the matter, not least because he hogged all (Sir Gerald Kaufman) said this evening; I would repeat the time yesterday when he gave us an hour for debate. them in my remarks, but time will not permit me to do Now we have a mere hour to do the same, and many so. Sadly, those two rights are incompatible, because the hon. Members want the opportunity to speak. We still choice before this House this evening is no longer about have not considered the matter fully and had a full and AV referendums and thresholds. I hate AV and do not proper debate in the House. want this £100 million referendum. I have always been in favour of a threshold and have said so many times in Mr Straw: Picking up the point made by the hon. this House, but that is not the choice before us. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), does my hon. Friend Sadly, the choice before us is between a Labour accept that the coalition agreement, or the needs of the Government who ruined this country’s economy over Liberal Democrats, has undermined the traditional 13 years and a coalition Government between the relationship between this place and the other place? In Conservatives and the Liberals that will give the country every previous example that I can think of when we the stability it needs to recover from the dire economic were in government, there would have been a compromise situation. This referendum on a simple majority, which in such a situation. That was the case scores of times, is stated in the coalition agreement, is a high price to but Ministers lack any authority to grant a compromise. pay for that stability. I, for one, agree to pay it with a very heavy heart. Kevin Brennan: My right hon. Friend is right. I shall come to that point. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am slightly troubled by my hon. The Minister is still trying to obfuscate over the Friend’s remarks, because I was unaware that this had threshold and suggest that in some way it would negate been put down as a confidence motion. the proposals in the Bill. What is unusual about the proposed referendum is that the Government are making Mrs Laing: I appreciate my hon. Friend’s intervention. it binding. Normally under our constitution, referendums It is not a confidence motion, but sadly it is for some of have been advisory to Parliament, not binding in their us who have loyalty to the Prime Minister, because we outcome, and that includes the devolution referendums are Conservatives first and foremost and want to see the that were mentioned. The difference in threshold in the stable government that is now being provided in every Scotland and Wales Bill back in 1979 was that it required area other than constitutional development. We want to 40% of those voting to vote in a certain way. see that stable government and so must support our All the amendment does is say that if 40% of people Prime Minister and his coalition. For some of us, it is fail to vote in total in the referendum, Parliament done with a heavy heart, but that is the price that the should reconsider the matter. That is an entirely different Liberals have sought in order to improve their party 1089 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1090 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mrs Laing] conviction; they are doing it for personal, petty position, and I suggest that that is a ridiculous way of dealing political advantage. The right hon. Member for Manchester, with such a constitutional issue. Gorton is absolutely right that we ought to have a threshold, but it is too late. The Bill is at its end. Let us Mr Cox: We have but, I think, two minutes— just get on with the process of having a referendum and [Interruption.] One minute. ensure that the British people see it for what it is and do During the time in which this subject has been before not vote to change our constitution. the House, I have voted consistently but regretfully against the Government’s position. I cannot understand Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): With why we voted for thresholds in opposition and are the greatest respect to the hon. Lady, for whom I have voting against thresholds in government. I cannot great respect, I think that that is one of the saddest understand why a party—the Liberal Democrats—that contributions that she has ever made in this House. preaches constitutionalism does not appreciate that Earlier today, the Home Secretary came to the House constitutional protections and constitutional safeguards, and said that, in the making of laws in this country, such as minimum thresholds on fundamental— Parliament is superior to the courts, but here we are, going for the lowest common denominator—the survival 8.14 pm of a coalition Government. In reality, however, that One hour having elapsed since the commencement of cannot be so. Is the hon. Lady suggesting that, over this proceedings on the Lords message, the debate was interrupted issue, for which there is no appetite in the country, (Programme Order, 15 February). the Liberal Democrats would actually pull down The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already the Government? Is she suggesting that, in actual fact, proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83G), the Deputy Prime Minister would leave his gilded office That this that this House insists on its disagreement with the over such an issue? I suggest that he most certainly Lords in their amendments 1 and 8, but proposes amendment (a) would not. in lieu.

Mrs Laing: The hon. Gentleman is right; I do not The House divided: Ayes 310, Noes 231. disagree. He is right also about it being my saddest Division No. 211] [8.14 pm speech. I hated making it, and this is a dreadful situation to be in, but my suggestion was not about the Deputy AYES Prime Minister, but about the Prime Minister, who gave Adams, Nigel Burt, Lorely his word that there would be a referendum. I wish that Aldous, Peter Byles, Dan he had not, but he did. Alexander, rh Danny Cable, rh Vince Amess, Mr David Cairns, Alun Dr McCrea: The Prime Minister giving his word to Andrew, Stuart Cameron, rh Mr David the Deputy Prime Minister is one thing; what counts is Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Bacon, Mr Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair the Prime Minister’s word to the people of this United Baker, Norman Chishti, Rehman Kingdom. Our Prime Minister has no appetite or conviction Baker, Steve Clark, rh Greg for this legislation at all. This is a grubby deal simply to Baldry, Tony Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth keep a party happy, and to keep its Back Benchers Baldwin, Harriett Clegg, rh Mr Nick happy at this time, but on a major constitutional issue Barclay, Stephen Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey such as this, is that the way in which we run our Barker, Gregory Coffey, Dr Thérèse country? Is that the way in which we are supposed to Barwell, Gavin Collins, Damian make our decisions? On a previous occasion, the question Beith, rh Sir Alan Colvile, Oliver was asked, “Would the coalition collapse if this issue Benyon, Richard Crabb, Stephen were defeated?” The answer, if I can remember, from the Beresford, Sir Paul Crockart, Mike Deputy Prime Minister was no, so to try to suggest that Berry, Jake Crouch, Tracey it would collapse is not factual at all. If it were, I suggest Bingham, Andrew Davey, Mr Edward that it would be blackmail, and we cannot blackmail Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Glyn Blackman, Bob de Bois, Nick hon. Members of this House. Blackwood, Nicola Dinenage, Caroline What we are here to ensure is what we, by conviction, Blunt, Mr Crispin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan believe is best for the country, not the lowest common Boles, Nick Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen denominator. So, I ask this question: where is the pressure Bradley, Karen Dorries, Nadine coming from for this legislation or for AV?It is certainly Brake, Tom Doyle-Price, Jackie not coming from the Conservative party, or from the Bray, Angie Duddridge, James Prime Minister, because he takes the very opposite view. Brazier, Mr Julian Duncan, rh Mr Alan It is simply coming from a few members of the Lib Brokenshire, James Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Dems, who believe that, from now on in, they can hold Brooke, Annette Dunne, Mr Philip the country to ransom. They hope that, as far as governing Browne, Mr Jeremy Edwards, Jonathan is concerned, they will hold the balance of power in any Bruce, Fiona Ellis, Michael election that follows. Bruce, rh Malcolm Ellison, Jane Buckland, Mr Robert Ellwood, Mr Tobias The hon. Lady had better remember, and let us make Burley, Mr Aidan Elphicke, Charlie no mistake, that if the Lib Dems thought that, in order Burns, Conor Evans, Graham to keep their ministerial cars after the next election, a Burns, rh Mr Simon Evans, Jonathan coalition would be better with Labour, they would join Burstow, Paul Evennett, Mr David a coalition with Labour. They are not doing this out of Burt, Alistair Fabricant, Michael 1091 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Parliamentary Voting System and 1092 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Farron, Tim Jones, Mr Marcus Paterson, rh Mr Owen Sturdy, Julian Featherstone, Lynne Kawczynski, Daniel Pawsey, Mark Swales, Ian Field, Mr Mark Kelly, Chris Penning, Mike Swayne, Mr Desmond Foster, rh Mr Don Kirby, Simon Penrose, John Swinson, Jo Fox,rhDrLiam Knight, rh Mr Greg Perry, Claire Swire, rh Mr Hugo Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Phillips, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Freeman, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pickles, rh Mr Eric Teather, Sarah Freer, Mike Lamb, Norman Pincher, Christopher Thurso, John Fullbrook, Lorraine Lancaster, Mark Poulter, Dr Daniel Timpson, Mr Edward Fuller, Richard Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Tomlinson, Justin Garnier, Mr Edward Latham, Pauline Pritchard, Mark Tredinnick, David Gauke, Mr David Laws, rh Mr David Pugh, John Truss, Elizabeth George, Andrew Lee, Jessica Randall, rh Mr John Uppal, Paul Gibb, Mr Nick Lee, Dr Phillip Reckless, Mark Vaizey, Mr Edward Gilbert, Stephen Leech, Mr John Reevell, Simon Vickers, Martin Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lefroy, Jeremy Reid, Mr Alan Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Glen, John Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Walker, Mr Charles Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Brandon Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Angus Wallace, Mr Ben Gove, rh Michael Lidington, rh Mr David Robertson, Hugh Walter, Mr Robert Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Robertson, Mr Laurence Ward, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen Rogerson, Dan Watkinson, Angela Grayling, rh Chris Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Rudd, Amber Weatherley, Mike Green, Damian Long, Naomi Russell, Bob Webb, Steve Greening, Justine Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Weir, Mr Mike Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lord, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Wharton, James Griffiths, Andrew Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Wheeler, Heather Gummer, Ben Lucas, Caroline Scott, Mr Lee White, Chris Gyimah, Mr Sam Luff, Peter Selous, Andrew Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Hague, rh Mr William Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Wiggin, Bill Halfon, Robert Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Willetts, rh Mr David Hames, Duncan MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Simmonds, Mark Williams, Hywel Hammond, rh Mr Philip Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Roger Hammond, Stephen May, rh Mrs Theresa Skidmore, Chris Williams, Stephen Hancock, Matthew Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe Williamson, Gavin Hands, Greg McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry Willott, Jenny Harper, Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian Wilson, Mr Rob Harrington, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Soames, Nicholas Wishart, Pete Harris, Rebecca McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soubry, Anna Wright, Simon Hart, Simon McVey, Esther Spencer, Mr Mark Yeo, Mr Tim Harvey, Nick Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Young, rh Sir George Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mercer, Patrick Stevenson, John Zahawi, Nadhim Hayes, Mr John Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Bob Heald, Mr Oliver Miller, Maria Stewart, Iain Tellers for the Ayes: Heath, Mr David Mills, Nigel Stride, Mel Mr Shailesh Vara and Heaton-Harris, Chris Milton, Anne Stunell, Andrew Jeremy Wright Hemming, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Henderson, Gordon Moore, rh Michael NOES Hendry, Charles Mordaunt, Penny Herbert, rh Nick Morgan, Nicky Abbott, Ms Diane Brennan, Kevin Hinds, Damian Morris, Anne Marie Abrahams, Debbie Brown, rh Mr Gordon Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, David Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Brown, Lyn Hollingbery, George Morris, James Alexander, Heidi Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Holloway, Mr Adam Mosley, Stephen Ali, Rushanara Brown, Mr Russell Hopkins, Kris Mowat, David Anderson, Mr David Bryant, Chris Horwood, Martin Mulholland, Greg Austin, Ian Buck, Ms Karen Hosie, Stewart Mundell, rh David Bailey, Mr Adrian Byrne, rh Mr Liam Howarth, Mr Gerald Munt, Tessa Bain, Mr William Cairns, David Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Balls, rh Ed Campbell, Mr Alan Hughes, rh Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Banks, Gordon Campbell, Mr Ronnie Huhne, rh Chris Neill, Robert Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cash, Mr William Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newmark, Mr Brooks Begg, Dame Anne Caton, Martin Hunter, Mark Newton, Sarah Benn, rh Hilary Chapman, Mrs Jenny Huppert, Dr Julian Nokes, Caroline Benton, Mr Joe Chope, Mr Christopher Hurd, Mr Nick O’Brien, Mr Stephen Berger, Luciana Clappison, Mr James Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Mr Matthew Betts, Mr Clive Clark, Katy James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric Binley, Mr Brian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Javid, Sajid Opperman, Guy Blackman-Woods, Roberta Coaker, Vernon Johnson, Gareth Osborne, rh Mr George Blenkinsop, Tom Connarty, Michael Johnson, Joseph Paice, rh Mr James Blomfield, Paul Cooper, Rosie Jones, Andrew Parish, Neil Blunkett, rh Mr David Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Mr David Patel, Priti Brady, Mr Graham Corbyn, Jeremy 1093 Parliamentary Voting System and 16 FEBRUARY 2011 1094 Constituencies Bill Cox, Mr Geoffrey Jamieson, Cathy Sarwar, Anas Timms, rh Stephen Crausby, Mr David Jenkin, Mr Bernard Seabeck, Alison Trickett, Jon Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Shannon, Jim Turner, Karl Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Sharma, Mr Virendra Twigg, Derek Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Sheerman, Mr Barry Twigg, Stephen Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Shepherd, Mr Richard Vaz, rh Keith Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Sheridan, Jim Vaz, Valerie Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Shuker, Gavin Walley, Joan Cunningham, Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Simpson, David Watson, Mr Tom Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Skinner, Mr Dennis Whitehead, Dr Alan Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Wicks, rh Malcolm David, Mr Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Williamson, Chris Davies, Philip Lavery, Ian Smith, Angela Winnick, Mr David Davis, rh Mr David Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Nick Winterton, rh Ms Rosie De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Wollaston, Dr Sarah Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Straw, rh Mr Jack Wood, Mike Dobbin, Jim Lewis, Dr Julian Stringer, Graham Woodcock, John Dobson, rh Frank Lloyd, Tony Stuart, Ms Gisela Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wright, Mr Iain Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacShane, rh Mr Denis Tami, Mark Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Tapsell, Sir Peter Tellers for the Noes: Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thomas, Mr Gareth Phil Wilson and Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Thornberry, Emily Jonathan Reynolds Drax, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Dromey, Jack Mann, John Question accordingly agreed to. Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael Business without Debate Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE (TODAY) Ellman, Mrs Louise McCrea, Dr William Ordered, Engel, Natascha McDonagh, Siobhain That, at this day’s sitting, the Speaker shall not adjourn the Evans, Chris McDonnell, John House until any Message from the Lords has been received, any Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Committee to draw up Reasons which has been appointed at that Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison sitting has reported, and he has notified the Royal Assent to Acts Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne agreed upon by both Houses.—(Sir George Young.) Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Flint, rh Caroline McKinnell, Catherine BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (THURSDAY) Flynn, Paul Michael, rh Alun Ordered, Fovargue, Yvonne Miliband, rh David Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew That, at the sitting on Thursday 17 February, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an Gardiner, Barry Moon, Mrs Madeleine Act or on European Union documents), the Speaker shall put the Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) the name of Secretary Iain Duncan Smith relating to Pensions Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. and Social Security no later than three hours after their commencement Goodman, Helen (Easington) or at 6.00 pm, whichever is the earlier; proceedings may continue, Greatrex, Tom Munn, Meg though opposed, after the moment of interruption; and Standing Green, Kate Murphy, rh Mr Jim Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Sir George Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Paul Young.) Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian Gwynne, Andrew Nash, Pamela EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Hain, rh Mr Peter Nuttall, Mr David Hamilton, Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Hamilton, Fabian Onwurah, Chi Order No. 119(11)), Hanson, rh Mr David Osborne, Sandra Harman, rh Ms Harriet Owen, Albert INTERINSTITUTIONAL AGREEMENT Harris, Mr Tom Pearce, Teresa That this House takes note of European Union Documents Havard, Mr Dai Percy, Andrew No. 9193/10, relating to the functioning of the Interinstitutional Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Agreement on budgetary discipline and sound financial management, Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget No. 10346/10 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to a Commission Communication on striking the right balance between the Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen administrative costs of control and the risk of error, and Nos. 5129/11 Heyes, David Qureshi, Yasmin and 15759/10, relating to a proposal for a Regulation on the Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick financial rules applicable to the annual budget of the Union and Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Jamie corresponding Opinion of the European Court of Auditors; and Hodge, rh Margaret Reeves, Rachel supports the Government’s approach to ensure that, especially at Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Emma a time when households and governments across the EU are Hollobone, Mr Philip Riordan, Mrs Linda taking difficult decisions to balance their budgets, EU expenditure Hopkins, Kelvin Robinson, Mr Geoffrey must be subject to strict budgetary discipline and appropriate Hunt, Tristram Rotheram, Steve principles of sound financial management.—(Mr Dunne.) Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Lindsay Question agreed to. Jackson, Glenda Ruane, Chris Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing James, Mrs Siân C. Ruddock, rh Joan Order No. 119(11)), 1095 Business without Debate16 FEBRUARY 2011 Business without Debate 1096

EU BUDGET REVIEW Mobility Component of Disability Living Allowance That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 15285/10 and Addendum, relating to the EU Budget Review; supports the Government’s efforts to reduce the size of the EU 11.51 pm budget and deliver savings and value for money for taxpayers, including a substantial reduction in spending on the Common Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I rise to present a Agricultural Policy; and further supports its efforts to reprioritise petition on behalf of care home residents, children at expenditure to support growth and competitiveness and tackle special boarding schools, and others who are concerned climate change and global poverty and to protect the UK’s for their welfare. I welcome the presence of my hon. abatement, which remains fully justified due to distortions in EU Friend the Members for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne spending.—(Mr Dunne.) Begg) and for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), who Question agreed to. have also supported the petition. The petition declares Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Under the Order of the House of earlier today, the House is that the mobility component of Disability Living Allowance not to be adjourned until any message from the Lords (DLA) helps meet some of the extra costs disabled people can face getting around; further declares that the Government plans has been received and Royal Assent has been notified to to stop paying DLA to people living in residential care, which will any Acts agreed upon by both Houses. I therefore mean that many people no longer have the money to meet these suspend the sitting to await a message from the Lords. extra costs and face being trapped at home. When the House is ready to resume, the bells will be People will lose £49.85 a week or £18.95 a week, and it sounded. A warning notice will be put on the Annunciator will simply mean that they cannot get out. in the usual way. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons 8.31 pm calls on the Government to keep the mobility component of Disability Living Allowance for people living in residential care. Sitting suspended (Order, 15 February). I have more than 6,900 signatures on a petition in 11.50 pm similar terms. I think that that shows how strongly On resuming— people feel about the important issue of not being trapped in residential care. ROYAL ASSENT Following is the full text of the petition: Mr Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance [The Petition of care home residents and others concerned with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that Her Majesty has for their welfare, signified her Royal Assent to the following Act: Declares that the mobility component of Disability Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Living Allowance (DLA) helps meet some of the extra Act 2011. costs disabled people can face getting around; further declares that the Government plans to stop paying DLA PETITIONS to people living in residential care, which will mean that Proposed Sale of Zurbaran Paintings many people no longer have the money to meet these extra costs and face being trapped at home. 11.50 pm The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I wish to Commons calls on the Government to keep the mobility present a petition from residents of Bishop Auckland, component of Disability Living Allowance for people County Durham and the north-east, who believe that living in residential care. the Church Commissioners should not sell Auckland And the Petitioners remain, etc.] castle or the Zurbaran paintings. Bishops of Durham [P000887] have lived in Bishop Auckland for 900 years. Youcannot take the bishop out of Bishop Auckland. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): On a point of order, I believe that the Church Commissioners have seen Mr Speaker. I know how keen you are that Ministers the light in regard to the castle, but have yet to see the should make announcements to the House first. This light in regard to the Zurbaran paintings. Because the evening, BBC television news reported that the Government matter is so important, there are more than 3,000 were planning to abandon their consultation on the signatures to the petition. Forestry Commission land disposals. Sir, I wonder whether The petition states: you have received any indication that a Minister will The Petition of residents of Bishop Auckland, County Durham come to the House to make a statement, even at this late and the North East, hour, or if not tonight, tomorrow. Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Church Commissioners should not sell Auckland Castle or the Zurbaran Paintings. Mr Speaker: The short answer is no. Many matters The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons are subject to speculation and conjecture, even in our urges the Church Commissioners not to proceed with the sale. media—a fact of which the hon. Gentleman, on the And the Petitioners remain, etc. strength of nearly 14 years’ experience in the House, is [P000888] well aware. 1097 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Incinerators (Hertfordshire) 1098

Incinerators (Hertfordshire) So my question to the Minister is: should a county council undertake such a course when a Government Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House consultation is under way and may produce results that —(Mr Goodwill.) do now adjourn. are at odds with the course taken by the county council? In respect of both the council’s own consultation, which 11.54 pm was announced hard on the heels of a decision on Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): We come to possible locations for the site, and the Government’s a subject in which the media do have an interest, particularly consultation, which was still taking place when that in the county of Hertfordshire, because it is a subject of announcement was made, there would seem to me, as a wide concern to the residents of Hertfordshire and, in layman, to be obvious prematurity in the council’s particular, to my constituents. I am talking about the decision to narrow the choice of sites down to two, possible location of an incinerator on a site in Harper including the Harper lane site. lane. That is actually within the constituency of my That is not the only strange aspect of the process hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main), being followed by the county council, because in October who is in her place and is planning to intervene in this 2008 the council submitted an outline business case to debate, but the plan considerably affects my constituents, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs particularly those in the community of Radlett. that enabled it to obtain £115 million of private finance Waste management is a matter for Hertfordshire initiative credits. The Harper lane site was not the county council, as it is for other county councils, and it reference site for that bid, nor, as I understand it, was it has decisions to take on the issue. But how those in the plans of the four shortlisted bidders with an decisions are taken, the process that is followed and the energy-from-waste proposal. Notwithstanding that, Harper timing of decisions raise wider concerns, and these lane emerged, out of the blue, as one of two shortlisted concerns have been reflected in cases involving other sites last July. In June of this year, if not before, the local authorities up and down the country. For that county council is set to announce its preferred bidder reason alone, Ministers need to examine the way in and site. which local authorities take decisions on waste management. Up to that point, there will have been no opportunity To a layman, the process being followed in Hertfordshire, for public consultation about the emergence of Harper which has led to the selection of Harper lane as a lane as a site. Indeed, in the process that has been possible site, seems somewhat odd, if not bizarre. followed, the public could be said to have been kept in Last July, Hertfordshire county council announced the dark because there is essentially no public information that Harper lane was under consideration as one of two on why Harper lane was chosen as a second potential possible locations in Hertfordshire for a major waste incinerator site. It does not fit with the stated criteria of incinerator to be operated by E.ON. Notwithstanding Hertfordshire county council for a number of reasons, that, the council launched a consultation last November including the fact that the site is in the green belt and on a new waste plan. Thus, the consultation began has poor main road access, being located close to a some three or four months after the announcement of notorious traffic congestion blackspot. this possible location. The following was said on behalf of the county council at the time: There are also very serious environmental issues relating to the Harper lane site, which will become apparent in “We already have a Waste Plan for the county, but this is now due course. Local people have had no opportunity to out of date and needs to be reviewed. The new plan, which will cover the period 2011-2026, will set out the county council’s have their say on any of this. As a strong supporter of policies and proposals for the future annual treatment of three the Localism Bill and the localism principle, I am million tonnes of waste. This includes identifying areas that may tempted to ask the Minister how this all fits in with the have the potential to accommodate waste facilities as well as concept of localism. Of course, before a final decision safeguarding existing facilities.” on the location of the incinerator site can be taken, a That raises the question: what was the point of the separate planning process will have to be conducted by consultation undertaken by the council, given that it Hertfordshire county council and presumably local people had already announced that the Harper lane site was will then have a say. That will come only after the one of two possible locations for the incinerator? The county council has appointed a preferred bidder for the council had already narrowed its choice of site down to preferred site and presumably entered into some sort of just two in Hertfordshire. legal relationship with the preferred bidder. The question of where this all fits into the Government’s Doubtless, Hertfordshire county council will be strategy also arises, because last June my right hon. scrupulous in observing the requirements of the planning Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food process, but, to say the least, how can this appear fair to and Rural Affairs announced a major waste policy the lay observer and to interested local residents? Would review, which was to examine not they be entitled to conclude that the process is “what policies are needed to reduce the amount of waste generated flawed? Many residents all over Hertfordshire might and to maximise reuse and recycling, while also considering how want to ask whether there should be an incinerator at waste policies affect local communities, individual households all and whether incineration is the most environmentally and businesses.” friendly process in all the circumstances. Certainly, the The review is considering the role of energy from waste, assumptions being made about incineration in this case and I understand that its preliminary results will be seem to be unambitious when it comes to recycling and published by the Department in 2011. Yet by that time, waste minimisation in both of which Hertfordshire has Hertfordshire county council will be a very long way a good record. Let it be said that Hertfordshire is a down the road on implementing its plans and may even green council with a very good record on recycling and have appointed a preferred bidder to deal with its waste is very good at stimulating environmental awareness. incineration. The recycling and composting rate for Hertfordshire is 1099 Incinerators (Hertfordshire)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Incinerators (Hertfordshire) 1100 in excess of the national rate and Hertfordshire is on I visited the site in question about 18 months ago, or course to achieve a rate of recycling 50% of all household it might have been two years now—time is flying. I was waste by 2013 if not before. aware then of an aspiration to have an incinerator on the site. It is already a gravel working site and there is Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Is it possible that if recycling there. It is heavily utilised, and access for a number of people were unhappy with the application lorries is compromised. At that time, we were aware that and objected to it through the planning application there was concern, particularly because of the previous process, the planning authority could say no to it and Government’s landfill directives, about the great pressure that concerns could be addressed at that stage? on Hertfordshire to deal with its waste through a new incinerator. Mr Clappison: That is possible, but by that time What concerns me, like my hon. Friend, is the lack of Hertfordshire county council would already have a preferred transparency in the process. Whispers and rumours bidder and might have entered into a legal relationship abound that we must not upset a Minister in another with it, so it would, in a way, be judging its own cause in corner of Hertfordshire, or that some deal has been the eyes of local people. There would then be a question stitched up. If we are to give the lie to local people’s of whether it could take that decision and be seen to be worries, we need a transparent process that they can a disinterested party, which is very important to the buy into and have a degree of faith in. planning process. That is a very strange process to My hon. Friend mentioned a particularly important follow. aquifer. The whole of Hertfordshire is characterised by Up to this point, even before we reach any of those chalk streams, aquifers with a potentially very big drain considerations, there has been no opportunity for local on them because of the sheer number of people living people to have their say, no opportunity for full ventilation near them, and low rainfall. On top of that, not so long of the environmental issues at stake and no opportunity ago there was a big disaster at Buncefield, which has for the case against incineration to be put—the case in severely compromised another of our aquifers. That favour of more recycling and other environmentally watercourse is still undergoing monitoring for the long-term friendly ways of dealing with waste. Neither, it seems, impacts of PFOS—perfluorooctane sulfonate—as a result has there been any opportunity thus far for a consultation of the Buncefield disaster. We in Hertfordshire are on a full environmental impact assessment. Local people extremely concerned that the environmental impact of are aware of a number of serious environmental concerns anything else that goes on in our environmentally sensitive about the Harper lane site, including the fact that it will area must be taken into account. be on an inner groundwater source protection zone and Plenty of people in St Albans, and I know in my hon. the fact that it is a close neighbour of the Wildlife Friend’s constituency as well, say that the particulates Trust’s nature reserve of Broad Colney lakes and of coming from lorries travelling in and out of the Harper Hounds Wood. In the eyes of many local people, the lane site, the potential compromising of an aquifer and development would be highly damaging to the local the concern about pollution from lorries queuing through environment and could hardly be more unsuitable on Park Street village and into Radlett will compromise an environmental traffic and local infrastructure grounds. already congested area and add to the health concerns Local people have come together under the auspices that residents already have. Those concerns were profoundly of the Watling incinerator group, known as WING, to expressed when both of us were fighting the rail freight put the very compelling case against such a development, interchange. but should they not have already had the opportunity to We should ensure that the public do not have any hint put their case formally at an earlier stage to help shape that there is a stitched-up deal done behind closed decisions and to participate in genuine consultation, so doors. They should not have to have any worries about that the process appears to be one in which people have whether a different site has greater potential value to a had a chance to have their say? The process appears to council as housing development land, and whether the be open to the many questions being asked about it. council will therefore sacrifice what it sees as a scrubby bit of green belt somewhere else. The Harper lane site is important, and it already 12.4 am delivers a lot to Hertfordshire through recycling and Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con):I congratulate my gravel extraction. It gives a lot, and it does not need hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) to give any more. It is grossly unfair to expect one on introducing this important debate at this late hour. corner of the county, on the edge of my hon. Friend’s As he observed, the site in question is in my constituency, constituency and mine, to deliver so much more than but it is on the edge and much of the traffic and other others, without people having had any say about whether impacts will affect his constituency. it is the best place to put an incinerator, if we are to have My poor old constituency is in the same corner of the one at all. county that only recently was under threat from a rail I do not have a particular concern about incinerators freight interchange. One of the arguments against that per se. I used to have the waste portfolio when I was a was that fact that lorries access the Harper lane site, the district councillor, and I visited incinerator sites. They very part of the county that the county council said at are very well run if they are well sited, but I do not the time was particularly heavily congested and unsuitable believe that Harper lane is the site on which to put an for having more traffic. That was a really strong argument. incinerator. It is already a compromised site and a rat The half a lane of road available in the area is now one run, and it is heavily utilised by lorries. To have waste of the main rat runs to escape problems on the M25 going into the area to be incinerated as well would be a and M1. blow too far and cause further concerns about aquifers. 1101 Incinerators (Hertfordshire)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Incinerators (Hertfordshire) 1102

[Mrs Anne Main] different technologies, of which incineration is only one. There is no silver bullet, but incineration is one of I should like the Minister to address in his comments the many means available for meeting our renewable the potential for a delay in the scheme, should it come energy needs. through, in the interests of localism and because of My hon. Friend has used this debate to raise his concerns about the environmental impact. Local people constituents’ concerns, just as my hon. Friend the Member should not have to feel that it is another scheme being for St Albans raised her constituents’ concerns so ably. railroaded past them. They cheered when we had a The Watling incinerator group—a group of committed change of Government, because they felt that it was the local people—is understandably worried about how end of railroaded schemes. Now there is potential for a incinerators might affect local air quality and the natural scheme that is seen to be a done deal. environment, and about the health of communities in Let us have transparency, localism and a fair say for the vicinity of the proposed incinerator. I must emphasise the local community. Let us say that this is not the right that all modern waste incinerators are subject to stringent site for a number of environmental reasons. We need to pollution controls. Modern incinerators must comply explore those reasons, not pay lip service to them in a with the waste incineration directive, which sets strict dashed-through consultation, all in a bid to find a waste emission limits for pollutants. The Environment Agency site to consume what will probably be waste from other will not grant the permits required for an incinerator to areas, not just Hertfordshire. As my hon. Friend the operate if a facility is not compliant with the directive. Member for Hertsmere said, we do a pretty good job of recycling our waste in Hertfordshire. We do not need to Mrs Main: That is why I said I had not set my face import other people’s rubbish. against incinerators. I have visited some incinerator sites and I am aware of exactly what the Minister says. 12.10 am However, it is the location of the sites and the access to them, along with the lorries and the pollution that they The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for generate, that also need to be taken into consideration. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere Richard Benyon: I entirely accept the points that my (Mr Clappison) on securing a debate of such importance hon. Friend raises, and I am of a similar mind. to his constituents. I also congratulate him and my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on the Studies have failed to establish any convincing link passion with which they spoke. As I am sure they are between emissions from incinerators and adverse effects aware, this subject would normally come under the on public health. In 2009, the Health Protection Agency remit of my noble Friend Lord Henley, but I have none reviewed the existing evidence on public health and the less been very interested in the issues raised in this incinerators. It concluded, on reviewing the existing evening’s debate. This Government have pledged to be evidence, that any effect on people’s health from incinerator the greenest ever. That is not an aspiration; it is an emissions was likely to be so small as to be undetectable. imperative. We have also pledged to devolve decision It affirmed that adverse health effects from modern, making as much as possible from the central to the local well-regulated waste incinerators did not pose a significant level. It is in the context of those two pledges that I threat to public health. welcome the chance to respond to this debate and the This debate is also about communities, and we need concerns that have been raised. to meet the challenges at local level. My hon. Friends We need to rebuild our economy, and we need the will be aware that I am unable to comment on the new economy to be sustainable. It can be sustainable specifics of this particular application, as it is currently only if it is green, and a green economy is a zero-waste subject to a competitive tender process, and it would economy. That does not mean that there will be absolutely therefore be inappropriate for me to comment. What I no waste—we are realistic—but it does mean that resources can say is that vigorous debate within a community is are fully valued, economically and environmentally. It healthy, and necessary in order to ensure that the right also means that one person’s waste is another person’s choices are made in each community. resource. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere In these debates, we need to be alive to the facts that said, the Government are currently conducting a thorough all communities produce waste and that responsibility review of our waste policy. We are due to report in the must be taken for dealing with it in a way that best spring, so I shall not seek to pre-empt our findings balances the needs of the community and the environment. today. Nevertheless, the recovery of energy from certain Our aim is to allow those who are best placed to make wastes has a role to play in moving us towards a decisions to take them in a balanced and informed way, zero-waste economy. with as little red tape as possible. A reformed planning A green economy means generating renewable energy. system will be underpinned by the Localism Bill. This We have tough targets for that, with 15% of energy will create a less bureaucratic, more decentralised and required to be from renewable sources by 2020. We need more collaborative process and will help to build the big an energy mix to meet our energy needs and the need to society by radically transforming the relationships between reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Recovering energy central Government, local government, communities from waste is part of that. Waste can be a renewable and individuals. source of energy, offsetting the fossil fuels that would As my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere said, otherwise have been burned and reducing methane the Government are also undertaking a review of waste emissions from landfills. That offers a net climate change policy, which is looking at all aspects of policy development benefit. I have not forgotten that this debate is about and delivery in England, including the possible role of incinerators, but it is important to emphasise that recovering energy from waste and related infrastructure needs. energy from waste can be achieved by using many However, it has never been the intention that the review 1103 Incinerators (Hertfordshire)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Incinerators (Hertfordshire) 1104 should prohibit any particular type of technology or example, recycling rates are around 65%, alongside take any decisions that would have a direct impact on 33% energy from waste. The picture is similar in Denmark individual projects. The waste review will report in May and Sweden. this year. Hertfordshire county council will have to We are doing this not only because it makes sense but decide how this timetable impacts on the progress of its because it is the law. The waste hierarchy will shortly own plans, but I do not believe that its actions in any become UK law through the revised waste framework way undermine the waste review. directive. We have legal targets to keep waste out of landfill, and the Climate Change Act 2008 rightly sets To put us on the road to a zero-waste economy, we tough targets for every sector of the economy to contribute need to manage all our waste according to the waste to the UK-wide carbon budgets. The waste sector is no hierarchy. The hierarchy involves an environmental order exception. All those obligations will help our drive of preference for the outcomes of waste. After the towards growing a zero-waste, green economy. preferable options of preventing, reusing and recycling waste, there is recovery and, finally, landfill—the least I hope that my hon. Friends the Members for Hertsmere desirable environmental outcome. The order of the and for St Albans will continue to make their case hierarchy can be changed for individual waste types, if passionately on behalf of their constituents. They will it can be proved that that makes environmental sense find that they are able to engage in a process in which over the life-cycle of a product. Generally, however, the they will be listened to, and in which they will be part of hierarchy works, and that means keeping waste out of the decision-making process. That is what this Government landfill whenever possible. Gone are the days when we are about. We want them to be part of the process, do not worry about putting waste in holes in the ground. rather than feeling that they are having these developments We know that biodegradable waste rots in landfill, inflicted on them with no ability to say anything. giving off methane, which is a greenhouse gas more I congratulate my hon. Friends on the high quality of potent than carbon dioxide. My hon. Friend the Member the debate and on the passion with which they have for St Albans made some very good points about the raised this issue. I hope that I have gone some way impact on water in aquifers. That is fundamental to our towards explaining why we are confident that incinerators concerns about landfill. do not pose a threat to public health, and why our policy on incinerators is part of, rather than in opposition Following the logic of the waste hierarchy, it is reasonable to, our being the greenest Government ever. I hope I to ask whether, if we are burning waste, we need not have been able to assure them that, as a Government, recycle it. Worse, might we be providing incentives we are committed to giving power to communities such specifically not to reduce, reuse or recycle before recovering as those in their part of Hertfordshire. energy from waste? Those are valid concerns that the Question put and agreed to. Government’s waste review is setting out to address. But we know from other countries that recycling and 12.20 am energy from waste can co-exist. In the Netherlands, for House adjourned. 1105 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Deferred Divisions 1106

Deferred Divisions Duncan, rh Mr Alan Harrington, Richard Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Harris, Rebecca Dunne, Mr Philip Harris, Mr Tom IMMIGRATION Eagle, Ms Angela Hart, Simon That the draft Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Order 2011, Eagle, Maria Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan which was laid before this House on 24 January, be approved. Efford, Clive Hayes, Mr John Elliott, Julie Heald, Mr Oliver The House divided: Ayes 474, Noes 23. Ellis, Michael Healey, rh John Division No. 207] Ellison, Jane Heath, Mr David Ellman, Mrs Louise Hendry, Charles AYES Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hepburn, Mr Stephen Elphicke, Charlie Hermon, Lady Abbott, Ms Diane Burstow, Paul Engel, Natascha Heyes, David Afriyie, Adam Burt, Lorely Eustice, George Hillier, Meg Aldous, Peter Byles, Dan Evans, Chris Hilling, Julie Alexander, Heidi Cable, rh Vince Evans, Graham Hinds, Damian Ali, Rushanara Cairns, Alun Evans, Jonathan Hoban, Mr Mark Amess, Mr David Cairns, David Fabricant, Michael Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Anderson, Mr David Cameron, rh Mr David Farrelly, Paul Hollingbery, George Andrew, Stuart Campbell, Mr Alan Featherstone, Lynne Hollobone, Mr Philip Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Campbell, Mr Gregory Field, rh Mr Frank Holloway, Mr Adam Austin, Ian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Field, Mr Mark Hopkins, Kris Bailey, Mr Adrian Campbell, Mr Ronnie Fitzpatrick, Jim Horwood, Martin Bain, Mr William Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Flello, Robert Howarth, rh Mr George Baker, Steve Carswell, Mr Douglas Flynn, Paul Howell, John Baldry, Tony Cash, Mr William Foster, rh Mr Don Hughes, rh Simon Baldwin, Harriett Caton, Martin Fovargue, Yvonne Huhne, rh Chris Balls, rh Ed Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fox,rhDrLiam Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Banks, Gordon Clark, rh Greg Francis, Dr Hywel Hunt, Tristram Barclay, Stephen Clarke, rh Mr Tom Francois, rh Mr Mark Hunter, Mark Barker, Gregory Clegg, rh Mr Nick Freer, Mike Huppert, Dr Julian Barwell, Gavin Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Fullbrook, Lorraine Hurd, Mr Nick Bayley, Hugh Coaker, Vernon Fuller, Richard Irranca-Davies, Huw Beckett, rh Margaret Coffey, Ann Gale, Mr Roger Jackson, Mr Stewart Beith, rh Sir Alan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Garnier, Mr Edward Jamieson, Cathy Benn, rh Hilary Collins, Damian Gauke, Mr David Javid, Sajid Benton, Mr Joe Colvile, Oliver George, Andrew Jenkin, Mr Bernard Benyon, Richard Connarty, Michael Gibb, Mr Nick Johnson, rh Alan Beresford, Sir Paul Cooper, Rosie Gilbert, Stephen Johnson, Diana Berger, Luciana Cooper, rh Yvette Gilmore, Sheila Johnson, Gareth Berry, Jake Cox, Mr Geoffrey Glen, John Johnson, Joseph Betts, Mr Clive Crabb, Stephen Goggins, rh Paul Jones, Andrew Bingham, Andrew Crausby, Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Jones, Mr David Binley, Mr Brian Creagh, Mary Goodman, Helen Jones, Graham Birtwistle, Gordon Crockart, Mike Goodwill, Mr Robert Jones, Helen Blackman, Bob Crouch, Tracey Gove, rh Michael Jones, Mr Kevan Blackwood, Nicola Cruddas, Jon Graham, Richard Jones, Mr Marcus Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Alex Grant, Mrs Helen Jones, Susan Elan Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Mr Jim Gray, Mr James Kawczynski, Daniel Blunkett, rh Mr David Cunningham, Tony Grayling, rh Chris Kelly, Chris Blunt, Mr Crispin Curran, Margaret Greatrex, Tom Kendall, Liz Boles, Nick Danczuk, Simon Green, Damian Kirby, Simon Bone, Mr Peter Darling, rh Mr Alistair Green, Kate Knight, rh Mr Greg Bradley, Karen Davey, Mr Edward Greening, Justine Kwarteng, Kwasi Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben David, Mr Wayne Greenwood, Lilian Laing, Mrs Eleanor Brady, Mr Graham Davidson, Mr Ian Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lammy, rh Mr David Brake, Tom Davies, Glyn Griffiths, Andrew Lancaster, Mark Bray, Angie Davies, Philip Gummer, Ben Latham, Pauline Brazier, Mr Julian de Bois, Nick Gwynne, Andrew Lavery, Ian Brennan, Kevin De Piero, Gloria Gyimah, Mr Sam Laws, rh Mr David Bridgen, Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Hague, rh Mr William Lazarowicz, Mark Brine, Mr Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Brooke, Annette Dobbin, Jim Hain, rh Mr Peter Leadsom, Andrea Brown, Mr Russell Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Halfon, Robert Lee, Jessica Browne, Mr Jeremy Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Hames, Duncan Lee, Dr Phillip Bruce, Fiona Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Hamilton, Mr David Leech, Mr John Bruce, rh Malcolm Doran, Mr Frank Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lefroy, Jeremy Bryant, Chris Dorries, Nadine Hammond, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte Buckland, Mr Robert Doyle, Gemma Hancock, Matthew Leslie, Chris Burden, Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Hancock, Mr Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Burley, Mr Aidan Dromey, Jack Hands, Greg Lewis, Brandon Burnham, rh Andy Duddridge, James Hanson, rh Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Burns, Conor Dugher, Michael Harper, Mr Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian 1107 Deferred Divisions16 FEBRUARY 2011 Deferred Divisions 1108

Lloyd, Stephen Osborne, rh Mr George Stevenson, John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Lloyd, Tony Osborne, Sandra Stewart, Bob Walker, Mr Robin Lopresti, Jack Owen, Albert Stewart, Iain Wallace, Mr Ben Lord, Jonathan Paisley, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Walley, Joan Loughton, Tim Parish, Neil Streeter, Mr Gary Walter, Mr Robert Lucas, Ian Patel, Priti Stride, Mel Ward, Mr David Luff, Peter Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stringer, Graham Watkinson, Angela Lumley, Karen Pawsey, Mark Stuart, Ms Gisela Weatherley, Mike Mahmood, Mr Khalid Pearce, Teresa Sturdy, Julian Webb, Steve Mahmood, Shabana Penning, Mike Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wharton, James Main, Mrs Anne Percy, Andrew Swales, Ian Wheeler, Heather Mann, John Perkins, Toby Swayne, Mr Desmond White, Chris Marsden, Mr Gordon Perry, Claire Swinson, Jo Whitehead, Dr Alan Maude, rh Mr Francis Phillips, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wicks, rh Malcolm May, rh Mrs Theresa Phillipson, Bridget Syms, Mr Robert Wiggin, Bill McCabe, Steve Pincher, Christopher Tami, Mark Willetts, rh Mr David McCann, Mr Michael Poulter, Dr Daniel Tapsell, Sir Peter Williams, Roger McCarthy, Kerry Pound, Stephen Teather, Sarah Williams, Stephen McCartney, Jason Pritchard, Mark Thomas, Mr Gareth Williamson, Chris McCartney, Karl Pugh, John Timms, rh Stephen Williamson, Gavin McClymont, Gregg Qureshi, Yasmin Timpson, Mr Edward Willott, Jenny McCrea, Dr William Reckless, Mark Tomlinson, Justin Wilson, Phil McFadden, rh Mr Pat Redwood, rh Mr John Tredinnick, David Wilson, Mr Rob McGovern, Alison Rees-Mogg, Jacob Trickett, Jon Winnick, Mr David McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Reeves, Rachel Truss, Elizabeth McIntosh, Miss Anne Reid, Mr Alan Turner, Mr Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah McKechin, Ann Reynolds, Emma Turner, Karl Woodcock, John McKinnell, Catherine Reynolds, Jonathan Twigg, Stephen Wright, David McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Uppal, Paul Wright, Mr Iain McVey, Esther Riordan, Mrs Linda Vaizey, Mr Edward Wright, Jeremy Menzies, Mark Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Wright, Simon Mercer, Patrick Robertson, Hugh Vaz, rh Keith Young, rh Sir George Metcalfe, Stephen Robertson, Mr Laurence Vaz, Valerie Zahawi, Nadhim Michael, rh Alun Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Miliband, rh David Rogerson, Dan NOES Miller, Andrew Rotheram, Steve Mills, Nigel Roy, Lindsay Abrahams, Debbie MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Milton, Anne Ruane, Chris Begg, Dame Anne MacShane, rh Mr Denis Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Russell, Bob Bottomley, Sir Peter McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Moon, Mrs Madeleine Rutley, David Corbyn, Jeremy McDonnell, John Havard, Mr Dai Moore, rh Michael Sanders, Mr Adrian Reevell, Simon Hood, Mr Jim Mordaunt, Penny Sandys, Laura Ritchie, Ms Margaret Hopkins, Kelvin Morden, Jessica Sarwar, Anas Robertson, Angus Morgan, Nicky Scott, Mr Lee Hosie, Stewart Weir, Mr Mike Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Selous, Andrew Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Morris, Anne Marie Shannon, Jim Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Morris, Grahame M. Sharma, Alok Long, Naomi Williams, Hywel (Easington) Sharma, Mr Virendra Lucas, Caroline Wishart, Pete Morris, James Sheerman, Mr Barry Mosley, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Question accordingly agreed to. Mowat, David Sheridan, Jim Mulholland, Greg Shuker, Gavin Mundell, rh David Simmonds, Mark TERRORIST FINANCE TRACKING PROGRAM Munn, Meg Simpson, David That this House takes note of European Union Documents Munt, Tessa Simpson, Mr Keith No. 11048/10 relating to a draft agreement, No. 11173/10, relating Murphy, rh Mr Jim Singh, Mr Marsha to a draft Council Decision on the signature of the agreement, Murphy, rh Paul Skidmore, Chris and No. 11172/10, relating to a draft Council Decision on the Murray, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis conclusion of the agreement between the European Union and Murray, Sheryll Slaughter, Mr Andy the United States of America on the processing and transfer of Murrison, Dr Andrew Smith, Angela financial messaging data from the European Union to the United States for the purposes of the Terrorist Finance Tracking Program; Nash, Pamela Smith, Miss Chloe agrees that the programme is an extremely important tool in the Neill, Robert Smith, Henry global counter-terrorism effort, providing valuable contributions Newmark, Mr Brooks Smith, Julian to numerous high profile cases; and notes that the programme has Newton, Sarah Smith, Nick achieved an appropriate balance between counter-terrorism and Nokes, Caroline Smith, Owen data protection. Nuttall, Mr David Soames, Nicholas The House divided: Ayes 484, Noes 5. O’Brien, Mr Stephen Soubry, Anna O’Donnell, Fiona Soulsby, Sir Peter Division No. 208] Offord, Mr Matthew Spellar, rh Mr John Ollerenshaw, Eric Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline AYES Onwurah, Chi Spencer, Mr Mark Abbott, Ms Diane Afriyie, Adam Opperman, Guy Stephenson, Andrew Abrahams, Debbie Aldous, Peter 1109 Deferred Divisions16 FEBRUARY 2011 Deferred Divisions 1110

Alexander, Heidi Clark, rh Greg Francis, Dr Hywel Howell, John Ali, Rushanara Clarke, rh Mr Tom Francois, rh Mr Mark Hughes, rh Simon Amess, Mr David Clegg, rh Mr Nick Freer, Mike Huhne, rh Chris Anderson, Mr David Coaker, Vernon Fullbrook, Lorraine Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Andrew, Stuart Coffey, Ann Fuller, Richard Hunt, Tristram Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gale, Mr Roger Hunter, Mark Austin, Ian Collins, Damian Garnier, Mr Edward Huppert, Dr Julian Bailey, Mr Adrian Colvile, Oliver Gauke, Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick Bain, Mr William Connarty, Michael George, Andrew Irranca-Davies, Huw Baldry, Tony Cooper, Rosie Gibb, Mr Nick Jackson, Mr Stewart Baldwin, Harriett Cooper, rh Yvette Gilbert, Stephen Jamieson, Cathy Balls, rh Ed Cox, Mr Geoffrey Gilmore, Sheila Javid, Sajid Banks, Gordon Crabb, Stephen Glen, John Jenkin, Mr Bernard Barclay, Stephen Crausby, Mr David Goggins, rh Paul Johnson, rh Alan Barwell, Gavin Creagh, Mary Goldsmith, Zac Johnson, Diana Bayley, Hugh Crockart, Mike Goodman, Helen Johnson, Gareth Beckett, rh Margaret Crouch, Tracey Goodwill, Mr Robert Johnson, Joseph Beith, rh Sir Alan Cruddas, Jon Gove, rh Michael Jones, Andrew Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Alex Graham, Richard Jones, Mr David Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Mr Jim Grant, Mrs Helen Jones, Graham Benyon, Richard Cunningham, Tony Gray, Mr James Jones, Helen Beresford, Sir Paul Curran, Margaret Grayling, rh Chris Jones, Mr Kevan Berger, Luciana Danczuk, Simon Greatrex, Tom Jones, Mr Marcus Berry, Jake Darling, rh Mr Alistair Green, Damian Jones, Susan Elan Betts, Mr Clive Davey, Mr Edward Green, Kate Kawczynski, Daniel Bingham, Andrew David, Mr Wayne Greening, Justine Kelly, Chris Binley, Mr Brian Davidson, Mr Ian Greenwood, Lilian Kendall, Liz Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Glyn Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Kirby, Simon Blackman, Bob Davies, Philip Griffith, Nia Knight, rh Mr Greg Blackwood, Nicola de Bois, Nick Griffiths, Andrew Kwarteng, Kwasi Blenkinsop, Tom De Piero, Gloria Gummer, Ben Laing, Mrs Eleanor Blomfield, Paul Dinenage, Caroline Gwynne, Andrew Lammy, rh Mr David Blunkett, rh Mr David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Gyimah, Mr Sam Lancaster, Mark Blunt, Mr Crispin Dobbin, Jim Hague, rh Mr William Latham, Pauline Boles, Nick Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hain, rh Mr Peter Lavery, Ian Bone, Mr Peter Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Halfon, Robert Laws, rh Mr David Bottomley, Sir Peter Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Hames, Duncan Lazarowicz, Mark Bradley, Karen Doran, Mr Frank Hamilton, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dorries, Nadine Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lee, Jessica Brady, Mr Graham Doyle, Gemma Hammond, Stephen Lee, Dr Phillip Brake, Tom Doyle-Price, Jackie Hancock, Matthew Leech, Mr John Bray, Angie Dromey, Jack Hancock, Mr Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Brazier, Mr Julian Duddridge, James Hands, Greg Leslie, Charlotte Brennan, Kevin Dugher, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Leslie, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Harper, Mr Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Brine, Mr Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Harrington, Richard Lewis, Brandon Brooke, Annette Dunne, Mr Philip Harris, Rebecca Lewis, Dr Julian Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Ms Angela Harris, Mr Tom Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Browne, Mr Jeremy Eagle, Maria Hart, Simon Lloyd, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Efford, Clive Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lloyd, Tony Bruce, rh Malcolm Elliott, Julie Havard, Mr Dai Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Bryant, Chris Ellis, Michael Hayes, Mr John Long, Naomi Buckland, Mr Robert Ellison, Jane Heald, Mr Oliver Lopresti, Jack Burden, Richard Ellman, Mrs Louise Healey, rh John Lord, Jonathan Burley, Mr Aidan Ellwood, Mr Tobias Heath, Mr David Loughton, Tim Burnham, rh Andy Elphicke, Charlie Hendry, Charles Lucas, Ian Burns, Conor Engel, Natascha Hepburn, Mr Stephen Luff, Peter Burstow, Paul Eustice, George Hermon, Lady Lumley, Karen Burt, Lorely Evans, Chris Heyes, David MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Byles, Dan Evans, Graham Hillier, Meg MacShane, rh Mr Denis Cable, rh Vince Evans, Jonathan Hilling, Julie Mahmood, Mr Khalid Cairns, Alun Fabricant, Michael Hinds, Damian Mahmood, Shabana Cairns, David Farrelly, Paul Hoban, Mr Mark Main, Mrs Anne Cameron, rh Mr David Featherstone, Lynne Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Mann, John Campbell, Mr Alan Field, rh Mr Frank Hollingbery, George Marsden, Mr Gordon Campbell, Mr Gregory Field, Mr Mark Hollobone, Mr Philip Maude, rh Mr Francis Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Fitzpatrick, Jim Holloway, Mr Adam May, rh Mrs Theresa Campbell, Mr Ronnie Flello, Robert Hopkins, Kelvin McCabe, Steve Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Flynn, Paul Hopkins, Kris McCann, Mr Michael Cash, Mr William Foster, rh Mr Don Horwood, Martin McCarthy, Kerry Caton, Martin Fovargue, Yvonne Hosie, Stewart McCartney, Jason Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fox,rhDrLiam Howarth, rh Mr George McCartney, Karl 1111 Deferred Divisions16 FEBRUARY 2011 Deferred Divisions 1112

McClymont, Gregg Osborne, Sandra Simmonds, Mark Turner, Karl McCrea, Dr William Owen, Albert Simpson, David Twigg, Stephen McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Paisley, Ian Simpson, Mr Keith Uppal, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Parish, Neil Singh, Mr Marsha Vaizey, Mr Edward McGovern, Alison Patel, Priti Skidmore, Chris Vara, Mr Shailesh McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Paterson, rh Mr Owen Skinner, Mr Dennis Vaz, rh Keith McIntosh, Miss Anne Pawsey, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Vaz, Valerie McKechin, Ann Pearce, Teresa Smith, Angela Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa McKinnell, Catherine Penning, Mike Smith, Miss Chloe Walker, Mr Robin McVey, Esther Percy, Andrew Smith, Henry Wallace, Mr Ben Menzies, Mark Perkins, Toby Smith, Julian Walley, Joan Mercer, Patrick Perry, Claire Smith, Nick Walter, Mr Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Phillips, Stephen Smith, Owen Ward, Mr David Michael, rh Alun Phillipson, Bridget Soames, Nicholas Watkinson, Angela Miliband, rh David Pincher, Christopher Soubry, Anna Weatherley, Mike Miller, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Soulsby, Sir Peter Webb, Steve Mills, Nigel Pound, Stephen Spellar, rh Mr John Weir, Mr Mike Milton, Anne Pritchard, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wharton, James Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Pugh, John Spencer, Mr Mark Wheeler, Heather Moon, Mrs Madeleine Qureshi, Yasmin Stephenson, Andrew White, Chris Moore, rh Michael Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Stevenson, John Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Mordaunt, Penny Reckless, Mark Stewart, Bob Whitehead, Dr Alan Morden, Jessica Redwood, rh Mr John Stewart, Iain Wicks, rh Malcolm Morgan, Nicky Rees-Mogg, Jacob Straw, rh Mr Jack Wiggin, Bill Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Reeves, Rachel Streeter, Mr Gary Willetts, rh Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Reid, Mr Alan Stride, Mel Williams, Hywel Morris, Grahame M. Reynolds, Emma Stringer, Graham Williams, Roger (Easington) Reynolds, Jonathan Sturdy, Julian Williams, Stephen Morris, James Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Williamson, Chris Mosley, Stephen Ritchie, Ms Margaret Swales, Ian Williamson, Gavin Mowat, David Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Willott, Jenny Mulholland, Greg Robertson, Angus Swinson, Jo Wilson, Phil Mundell, rh David Robertson, Hugh Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wilson, Mr Rob Munn, Meg Robertson, Mr Laurence Syms, Mr Robert Winnick, Mr David Munt, Tessa Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Tami, Mark Wishart, Pete Murphy, rh Mr Jim Rogerson, Dan Tapsell, Sir Peter Murphy, rh Paul Rotheram, Steve Teather, Sarah Wollaston, Dr Sarah Murray, Ian Roy, Lindsay Thomas, Mr Gareth Woodcock, John Murray, Sheryll Ruane, Chris Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, David Murrison, Dr Andrew Russell, Bob Tomlinson, Justin Wright, Mr Iain Nash, Pamela Rutley, David Tredinnick, David Wright, Jeremy Neill, Robert Sanders, Mr Adrian Trickett, Jon Wright, Simon Newmark, Mr Brooks Sandys, Laura Truss, Elizabeth Young, rh Sir George Newton, Sarah Sarwar, Anas Turner, Mr Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Nokes, Caroline Scott, Mr Lee Nuttall, Mr David Selous, Andrew NOES O’Brien, Mr Stephen Shannon, Jim O’Donnell, Fiona Sharma, Alok Begg, Dame Anne Lucas, Caroline Offord, Mr Matthew Sharma, Mr Virendra Corbyn, Jeremy McDonnell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Sheerman, Mr Barry Hood, Mr Jim Onwurah, Chi Shelbrooke, Alec Opperman, Guy Sheridan, Jim Question accordingly agreed to. Osborne, rh Mr George Shuker, Gavin

267WH 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 268WH

More than 53,000 jobs were created in the city between Westminster Hall 2000 and 2005, which was a growth rate of 32%. Between 1998 and 2001, the city’s financial services sector increased by 30%, and it is now one of Europe’s largest financial Wednesday 16 February 2011 centres. In 2005, more than 17,000 new jobs were created. In 2006, private sector investment in the city reached £42 billion, which represented a 22% increase in such [MR ROGER GALE in the Chair] investment within a single year. That shift in Glasgow’s fortunes marked very significant progress and played a Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) vital part in helping to change Glasgow’s image of Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting economic decline and worklessness. In doing so, it be now adjourned.—(Mr Goodwill.) inspired confidence in the people of Glasgow, and it inspired investors to have confidence in the city. Of 9.30 am course, it also demonstrated that the famous Glasgow Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): Thank you resilience pays off. very much, Mr Gale. I am very pleased to speak here A debate about regeneration is about not only the this morning. This is my first Westminster Hall debate physical aspects of a place but its people. Glasgow has since I was elected as a Member of Parliament at the had a strong sense that the process of economic regeneration last election, and I am pleased that the subject is my and the accompanying process of cultural renaissance own city of Glasgow—the great city of Glasgow. I am that it experienced in the 1980s and 1990s should benefit sure that you will hear much of that this morning, all its citizens and not only those who were skilled and Mr Gale. able to make the most of those opportunities. Too Of course Glasgow is vital to the current economy of often, Glasgow was characterised as a city of two Scotland, and over the years it has also contributed a halves, and there was a real push to ensure that all the great deal to Scotland and the United Kingdom. Although people of the city benefited from any regeneration Glasgow has suffered many setbacks and difficulties process. Glasgow’s problems of ill health, poverty and along the way, I argue that the city has fought to deprivation were so deep-rooted that there needed to be overcome them with significant success. It is important a step change in how we tackled them. A vital ingredient that we understand the key ingredients of that success was the regeneration of some of the most disadvantaged and that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. communities, a number of which are in the east end of Instead, we must deepen and enhance the processes of Glasgow in my constituency. Long before the big society regeneration, so that we can benefit from them in the was ever heard of, Glasgow pioneered community future. development. The second city of the empire, Glasgow inspires great We are all aware of the mistakes that were made in pride and loyalty in its people: pride in the skills and the past when things were “done to” communities rather contribution made by working people to the economy, than “with them”, particularly in relation to housing. and loyalty to a city famed for its humour and resilience. Economic regeneration is at its best when we work with By 1870, Glasgow was producing more than half of people who have experienced the problems and have a Britain’s tonnage of shipping and a quarter of all the vested interest in finding the solutions, rather than locomotives being built in the world. Of course, our when we impose top-down reforms. That is best illustrated interest in shipbuilding continues to this day, as I am in the housing sector. Through housing stock transfer, sure Ministers know. In my constituency, Glasgow East, the city has been able to bring additional major spend we had Parkhead forge, which was a powerhouse of the into housing investment. That process not only involved steel industry. It was one of the biggest steel employers tenants in a completely new way but delivered a programme in the world—at one point, it employed 30,000 people—and of sustainable housing in Glasgow. In my previous role it made an enormous contribution to the war effort. as a Member of the Scottish Parliament, I was the The plant finally closed its doors in the 1980s. Minister with responsibility for housing in different I argue, with some regret, that that great contribution ministerial capacities, and I was substantially involved to Scotland’s economy has not been properly recognised in housing stock transfer. If anyone wants to hear me or rewarded over the years. There is a real sense among talk for half an hour about housing stock transfer, I am Glaswegians that our work and contribution was used very willing to oblige, but such talks are obviously not when times were good, but that we were abandoned in great demand at the moment. when change was under way, and we cannot let that Given the challenges facing Glasgow, it is important happen again. As a result of that abandonment, we to understand how we made progress. Glasgow city were left with a legacy of ill health, high poverty and council was instrumental in building a lasting partnership mass unemployment. That situation was particularly with the private sector, a partnership which continues to bad during the 1980s, when unemployment soared. this day. That partnership with the private sector will be There was a sharp decline in public services, urban the theme of my contribution to the debate, including decay set in and a cycle of worklessness and hopelessness how it is possible to get the public and private sectors to became embedded in too many communities and too work together. My real fear is that that partnership is many families. The next generation worked hard to being jeopardised at the moment. The experience that tackle that legacy through economic and social regeneration. we had in Glasgow of the partnership between public As I mentioned at the beginning of my speech, there and private is relevant to the discussions of today and were many successes along the way. As a result of the priorities that we set. economic diversification and increased investment in In Glasgow, the private sector understood the need to infrastructure, health and education, Glasgow achieved invest in education and the benefits that it accrues from a great deal. that investment. The private sector benefited enormously 269WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 270WH

[Margaret Curran] expertise on the football field, and I am sure that we will inspire interest in other sports when the Commonwealth from the developments in housing and in particular games are held. It is, however, also an opportunity to from housing stock transfer. For example, the £1 billion foster economic regeneration, most particularly in areas investment by Glasgow Housing Association has seen of the city that still need rejuvenation. More than 9,000 unparalleled improvements in housing throughout the businesses entered the bidding process for affiliated city. Perhaps the employment opportunities that arise contracts and subcontracts, and it is expected that the from such housing investment are not properly understood, games will create 1,000 jobs and stimulate £1 billion of but in fact 4,000 people were directly employed between infrastructure investment in Glasgow, most particularly 2006 and 2010 as a result of the investment in housing addressing our urge to ensure that the most deprived in Glasgow. Nearly half those people were employed areas benefit. In the east end of Glasgow the games are through community benefit clauses, which shows that of great significance, so will the Minister, in his response, public intervention works by creating sustainable focus on the games? We could perhaps learn things employment. Of the 2,000 people who were employed from the UK’s experience with the Olympic games, and through community benefit clauses, half of them were the UK Government could perhaps play a part in trainees or apprentices. Once again, that employment ensuring that the Commonwealth games are an important has had a real impact in the communities in which those success. people lived and worked. The Clyde Gateway is another important development We have experienced a bit of a jolt to the process of in the east end of Glasgow. It has been identified in the regeneration in Glasgow in recent years, since the Scottish national planning framework as Scotland’s top regeneration National party came to power. I would argue that project. It has the target of creating 21,000 jobs and during that time the partnership approach to regeneration 10,000 homes over two decades. It is vital to the success has been undermined. That is exemplified through the of Glasgow, but recently there have been some problems development of the Scottish Futures Trust. That trust with its funding. The SNP Government have taken was set up by the SNP Administration, and it was some action to address the concerns, but the role of meant to be part of a new approach to raising private Scottish Enterprise has, I think, been controversial in its finance, allegedly for investment. However, it has failed support of the gateway. We cannot afford to let the to commission the building of a single new school, and project slip, and some of my hon. Friends will perhaps funding for capital investment projects has fallen by £1 want to make more detailed reference in their contributions billion at the cost of 37,000 jobs in the construction to the progress, or lack thereof. Hopefully, we can industry. particularly focus on that in the coming months, as it is The SNP Government have refused point blank to key to the regeneration of Glasgow. Both the Clyde listen to the pleas of the business community in Glasgow, Gateway and the Commonwealth games are important and as a result of that cut in capital investment and to regeneration, particularly as they have a focus on and other cuts, the construction of school buildings has locus in addressing the issue of deprived communities, been scrapped and thousands of teachers and nurses as well as having a stake in Glasgow’s future. have lost their jobs. The “Salmond slump”, as it is now Glasgow is, of course, facing the double whammy of termed in Scotland, has also seen the cancellation of a Tory-led Government—hon. Members will have expected vital capital infrastructure projects such as the Glasgow me to move on to this topic. In debates such as this, I airport rail link. The cancellation of GARL has meant always want to be polite, so I will say this in the most the loss of 1,300 jobs. For the first time in a long time, generous personal terms, but I cannot resist making Glasgow unemployment figures have begun to fall behind political criticisms and I hope that the Minister will take those of England. what I say in the tenor in which it is meant. We have There is no doubt that the decline in investment seen some difficulties and challenges since the election under the SNP Administration has hit Glasgow hard. of the new Government, including the cancellation of In my own constituency, the number of new or refurbished the future jobs fund, which was doing so much to tackle schools between 1999 and 2007 was 14, so we had 14 problems of unemployment and particularly of youth brand new or refurbished schools in the east end of unemployment, where we were just beginning to grapple Glasgow in that time. Since the SNP came to power, not with some of the more deep-seated issues. We have seen one school in my constituency has been built or the cuts in public expenditure, and we have heard from refurbished—there has been no investment at all in the Government that when cuts are made in public schools. Recently Glasgow city council has had more expenditure, the private sector will step in to fill that than its fair share of budget cuts, as the council itself gap. I say assertively to the Government that that did will confirm. There has been a 3.6% budget cut, which not happen when the SNP cut expenditure. In fact, the is the highest cut for many years and above the national business community put quite a different case in Glasgow, average. where it said that when public expenditure is used wisely, it can assist private sector development, and we Glasgow is battling on, and there are still regeneration have seen the details of that in Glasgow and the real projects that matter enormously. I want to refer to two success of the model. of those projects that are of great importance—first, the Commonwealth games, and secondly the Clyde We have also seen a raft of cuts in housing benefit, Gateway. The 2014 games will be an exciting occasion, which has undermined that twin process of economic and there was great celebration in Glasgow when we and social regeneration. I would be the first at the won them. It is an occasion to celebrate sport in a city barricades saying that welfare reform is important, famed for its sporting achievements. As the Member of particularly because of the constituency that I represent. Parliament for the great football team of Glasgow I was a great supporter of the welfare reforms introduced Celtic, I expect everyone to be aware of our great by the previous Labour Government, but how reform is 271WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 272WH done is critical. The number of people on incapacity the Evening Times. I will continue to do that, because it benefit tripled under the previous Tory Government, is our job here to highlight the city’s strength and but fell during the previous Labour one. It is concerning potential. that this Government’s welfare reforms are perhaps People have many images and stereotypes of the city undermining regeneration. A particular example is the of Glasgow, and I never deny the problems that we face. Government’s decision to take away 10% of housing I have hopefully done some work to try to deal with benefit from someone who has been on jobseeker’s some of our city’s great difficulties, but it is also a city of allowance for a year. Even if that person is doing all great strength, promise and resource, and we have to that is required of them and is desperately looking for learn from not only its problems but its great successes. work, they will still lose their benefit. That not only has I hope that the Minister will listen and will take back a harsh impact on the family but undermines housing-led Glasgow’s message to the Government. That message is regeneration, because it affects funding for housing that they should think again about cuts in housing associations in Glasgow, which would be a desperate benefit in particular and that they should support our setback for our city. In all honesty, such a punitive, fight for jobs, particularly as we have seen the job crisis nasty cut reminds Glaswegians of the bad old days. We increase. They should recognise Glasgow’s contributions have had the higher education cuts that have come and work with us to support economic and social through the block grant, and investment in education, regeneration. particularly at university level, matters so much for a skilled work force, because it enables growth in key Mr Roger Gale (in the Chair): Four hon. Members on sectors such as life sciences and finance. the Back Benches wish to participate in the debate. The Chair chooses to give preference, when possible, to Centre stage in this discussion has to be unemployment. Members who have written to Mr Speaker to indicate The numbers have been creeping back up in Glasgow, that they wish to take part, so I propose to call Mr Greatrex particularly with the real concerns about the retraction next. It might be for the convenience of Members if I in the economy shown in the recent growth figures. In also indicate that I shall then call Ms Swinson, Mr Bain Glasgow in December, 15 claimants were chasing every and Mr Sarwar, in that order. If hon. Members would vacancy—in my constituency, the figure was 25. That is be good enough to confine their remarks to 10 minutes, deeply worrying for those individuals, families and that will enable me to call the Opposition Front-Bench communities, and it has an enormous impact in the city spokesperson at 10.30 am. as a whole. It is all very well telling people that they must go back to work, but there are no jobs to go to, which cuts the feet from under the policy. We cannot 9.49 am have welfare to work if there is no work, and it is Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ employment and the lack of it that lies at the heart of Co-op): I will endeavour to keep my remarks as brief as the regeneration debate. possible, so that other Members are able to make their For generation after generation, Glasgow has experienced points. surges in unemployment through profound economic I congratulate my parliamentary neighbour, my hon. shifts without the right action to protect its people and Friend the Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), to get its economy back on its feet, and it looks as on securing this important debate. She rightly spoke of though we are experiencing that yet again. I have no the history, character and legacy of the city of Glasgow doubt that the Government will respond by saying that and, importantly, of the city’s potential. I pay tribute to it is all the fault of the previous Government, and that her and the other hon. Members who are standing up there is nothing else that has to be done apart from for the great city of Glasgow in this debate. tightening our belts. That has been said to Glaswegians I speak as somebody who definitely does not represent before, and it is has been proved very wrong indeed, a Glasgow constituency. My constituents who live closest many times. I argue very strongly that the people of to Glasgow are not slow to remind me that they live in Glasgow understand that the banking crisis was the the Royal Burgh of Rutherglen. They might have Glasgow fundamental cause of the recent economic experiences, postcodes and phone numbers, but the River Clyde and there is great resentment that that sector is not forms a natural boundary between Rutherglen and the being made to contribute more to the solutions. Britain’s east of the city, although that natural boundary might debt was among the lowest in the G7, and the Tories not be respected in future by the Boundary Commission, actually argued that we should perhaps have gone further depending on the outcome of deliberations elsewhere in our plans for public expenditure. In reality, as Glasgow today. However, I suppose that that is a debate for a has shown, it is not “public sector investment bad,” as if much later hour. that were somehow a drag on the economy that stifles Although my constituency interest is not directly in private sector development; it is both the public and Glasgow, the fact that my constituency neighbours Glasgow private sectors working together in partnership that is gives me a strong connection with the city across the good and that matters. river. The southernmost part of my constituency shares I will draw my remarks to a close, and I thank hon. many characteristics with the east end of Glasgow, as Members for attending the debate. One of the first described by my hon. Friend in her speech. Due to that demands that I had when I became a Member of connection, my constituency has a direct interest in the Parliament came from Glasgow’s Evening Times, that regeneration of Glasgow, particularly through the Clyde other significant element of Glasgow life, which my Gateway project, which she mentioned and I will discuss hon. Friends know. The paper contacted me and insisted briefly. that my job here is to stand up for Glasgow and that I I realise that the Minister will get both a geography should make that one of my central claims, which is and a history lesson during this debate. I hope that the what I agreed to do—we always agree, I am sure, with Clyde Gateway is a fairly self-explanatory description 273WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 274WH

[Tom Greatrex] local authorities, which were keeping to their side of the bargain as founders of the regeneration company, but of the regeneration area. It takes in the area to either by the crass actions of Scottish Enterprise. side of the Clyde and east of the city, and includes the The once-in-a-lifetime opportunity has been left cruelly constituencies of my hon. Friends the Members for in limbo by Scottish Enterprise. Last week, after pressure, Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) and for Glasgow East John Swinney, the Finance Minister in Holyrood, managed on one side, and mine on the other. The Minister might to find the money to reinstate the sum cut from the be less familiar with the work of the Clyde Gateway budget for URCs for this year by creating an underspend urban regeneration company. I pay tribute to the work elsewhere, a juggling act of the type I am sure Treasury of Clyde Gateway, which has learned the lessons from Ministers are practising for March. sometimes less successful regeneration initiatives in other Clyde Gateway is still at the mercy of Scottish Enterprise. parts of the country. Clyde Gateway has actively involved A week later, Scottish Enterprise has still not confirmed and engaged communities since its establishment in late how much money will be redirected back into the 2007, and its priorities have been led by what local projects to which it committed, nor what the long-term communities say they need and want for the area. position is given its previous commitments to funding It is fair to describe this as a once-in-a-lifetime chance until 2016. Scottish Enterprise said in its business plan, to make a difference to some of the most deprived areas published less than a year ago, that it will of Glasgow and South Lanarkshire. The opportunity “continue to work…to deliver national regeneration priorities” has been created partly by the Glasgow bid for the Commonwealth games in 2014, as my hon. Friend such as Clyde Gateway, ring-fencing £12.5 million in mentioned, and partly by the construction of the final, 2011-12 and 2012-13 and maintaining funding until missing section of the M74 from Cambuslang in my 2016. constituency to join the M8. The improved transport As I am sure the Minister will understand, the continued connection and legacy sports facilities from the games ability to lever in private sector investment and commitment will make a massive difference to the area. At the same from potential employers depends on stability and time, an opportunity is at stake to do much more in confidence that plans will be delivered, not left in the relation to housing, industry and jobs—not only lurch. It is not good enough that, although John Swinney construction work but sustainable long-term jobs. was forced to restore the money cut from the budget, So far, only some of those benefits have come to Scottish Enterprise has failed to explain what that will fruition in the form of improvements in and around mean for Clyde Gateway next year. There is no sense of Rutherglen station, the opening in the past few weeks of what the position will be in the further two years for small business units in Stonelaw road in Rutherglen and which money was previously committed. an innovative arrangement with Campbell Construction We have heard in this debate and will continue to Group to ensure that the construction jobs and training hear about the importance of regeneration to many associated with the Clyde Gateway project are geared as communities in Glasgow. Clyde Gateway covers one far as possible towards local people. aspect of that regeneration in a specific area, but it is a The Clyde Gateway area on the side of the river that I crucial time for the east end of the city and the areas represent has a long and proud industrial history, but across the river in Shawfield and Rutherglen. If taken, history does not always get us far. It does not provide this opportunity can make a difference to many people. many jobs, keep local people in the communities where If it is missed, they will be cruelly let down. The area they want to live or help economic growth. Although has needed regeneration for far too long, as is obvious the pits have long gone and the Cambuslang Hoover to anyone travelling through it. Progress has been made factory has been closed for several years—some of the recently, creating hope, but there is now a danger that physical structure is still around—the steel works continue. due to the twisted logic of Scottish Enterprise, the There is huge potential to help regenerate what was opportunity could be lost. once and can again be a thriving economic base in my I realise that it is not the Minister’s direct responsibility, constituency. but I take this opportunity to place on the record my hope that Scottish Enterprise will do what it can to The potential is clear. Thanks to the work of Clyde make clear its ongoing commitment to Clyde Gateway Gateway, public support exists and some of the first so that crucial capital projects can progress. Failure to projects have been delivered. Visible progress has been do so will let down the communities in my constituency made not just in Rutherglen but in Bridgeton on the and other hon. Members’ in a shoddy and disgraceful other side of the river. The project has also gained the way. support of business organisations, Glasgow city and South Lanarkshire councils and, until recently, Scottish 9.58 am Enterprise, the regeneration agency in Scotland. Clyde Gateway has been an evolving success story, with huge Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I congratulate potential and the support—at least in words—of Ministers the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) in the devolved Administration in Edinburgh. on securing her first Westminster Hall debate on this It was therefore of great concern when in January this very appropriate topic, and on how she introduced it. year, without notice, consultation or explanation, Scottish She is well known for being dedicated to her constituency Enterprise announced that the budget of Clyde Gateway and constituents, and she captured the city of Glasgow’s and other URCs in Scotland would be cut by nearly past and continuing energy. half, which is well beyond the level anticipated or warned Like that of the hon. Member for Rutherglen and about and places in doubt the future of Clyde Gateway Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), my constituency is just and its ability to deliver some key projects. Many people outside the city of Glasgow, although it does not have felt utterly betrayed, not by Clyde Gateway or by their the same natural boundary. The town of Bearsden in 275WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 276WH my constituency is right next to Anniesland in Glasgow, biggest industries is tourism, but so many people I meet and Bishopbriggs in East Dunbartonshire runs into who say that they have visited Scotland have been only Springburn in Glasgow. It is fair to say that people in to Edinburgh and think that that is enough. We must the west of Scotland who live near the city are very and can do more to draw people across, even if it is only aware of whether they are within Glasgow city boundaries, for a day trip, so that they do not just think, “We’ll go to but the further away they live, the more solidarity they Edinburgh.” After all, the two cities are only 45 minutes feel with Glasgow. As a student in London, I recall apart on the train, and the west of Scotland has a sometimes feeling like an outpost of the Glasgow tourist wealth of activities and things to offer people that they board. When I said that I was from Glasgow, people would not necessarily get in Edinburgh. We should be would say to me, “Oh, that’s a dirty, horrible industrial promoting that more. city,” and I found myself putting those myths straight. As I have said, we have the world heritage site of the Although Glasgow has a proud industrial heritage, it Antonine wall. We also have the west highland way, is also a city with stunning Victorian architecture—indeed, which is one of the world’s greatest long-distance walks it was the UK city of architecture and design in 1999—and and which starts in Milngavie in my constituency. We an exciting mix of culture. It was the European city of have not properly exploited its economic benefits. Obviously, culture in 1990, which was in itself a great catalyst for there is a current economic benefit, but it could be so regeneration, similar to that which we have seen in much greater. The recent opening of a tourist information Liverpool recently. Glasgow is now very much a modern, centre in Milngavie was a welcome start to that process, vibrant and confident city, and people with an outdated but it speaks volumes that, until recently, this world-famous, view of it should visit in order to experience what it is long-distance walk did not even have a tourist point at like today.Many of my constituents work in Glasgow—the its start. It has not been given the priority that it should transport links are good—so the economic regeneration have for many years. of the city is important for the health, well-being and Another reason why we should attract more people prosperity of people living in East Dunbartonshire. to Glasgow is that—if I may be slightly biased—we are Glasgow has a wide hinterland. It is very much the focal a much friendlier city than Edinburgh has a reputation point for all of the west of Scotland in terms of economic for being. I am sure that if people come, they will want activity, which covers everything in the region, from the to come back and become ambassadors. Those of us bustling city centre to the tranquillity of the shores of who represent the west of Scotland in this place and in Loch Lomond. other Parliaments have a responsibility to be ambassadors, On regeneration, I want to touch upon a particular as the Evening Times rightly told the hon. Lady. We part of the hinterland, namely the town of Kirkintilloch need a renewed focus on tourism at all levels of government. in my constituency. It is celebrating its 800th anniversary The 2014 Commonwealth games provide a great as a burgh this year, and it is the focus of much opportunity to sell Glasgow, and they are also clearly a regeneration. I think that the hon. Member for Rutherglen huge boost for economic regeneration through the and Hamilton West will know a great deal about investment for building various facilities. We should Kirkintilloch’s initiative from his previous work for make sure that there are good links—I understand that East Dunbartonshire council. The initiative has brought this is the case—between the teams preparing for 2012 together a multimillion pound regeneration package, and 2014, but we should also use the expertise of including a new leisure centre, a new health centre and a Manchester, which had such a successful Commonwealth newly opened link road, which, as well as alleviating games in 2002. Beyond the boundaries of the city, some traffic problems, makes Kirkintilloch much more enlightened local authorities surrounding Glasgow have accessible to people travelling there from Glasgow. It the opportunity to do what some of those surrounding has helped to regenerate the town, which certainly Manchester did in 2002—own the Commonwealth games needed it—it is, perhaps, the part of my constituency and use it for economic, educational and cultural benefit that has been in most need of regeneration. That has by linking up with countries that may want to base their been successful and much of it has now been completed. training camps in those parts of the west of Scotland. The town has recently been allocated £361,000 for They could also create much more meaningful links town centre regeneration from a Scottish Government with local school projects and get the whole community fund. Therefore, although the hon. Lady has genuine involved. Moreover, the 2012 London Olympics and the criticisms of the Scottish Government, it is perhaps fair 2014 Commonwealth games even have the potential to to say—particularly because no representative of the encourage some countries partaking in both games to Scottish National Party is present—that the Government base their training camp for 2012 in and around Glasgow in Holyrood have done some things right. However, I and to return there in 2014, so there would be a relationship agree with her complaint about the cancellation of the over several years. Glasgow airport rail link. I do not now fly to London—I This is a Westminster Hall debate, so there is a take the train instead—but that was an important project general spirit of consensus, which has been well noted that would have been helpful had it not been cut. this morning. I will end, however, on a slight note of Kirkintilloch has a great deal of heritage—as I have discord. The hon. Lady is right that it is essential that said, it is celebrating its 800th anniversary. The Forth the public and private sectors work together and that and Clyde canal runs through it, and it has much that can be successful. I take slight issue, however, with Roman heritage. In fact, much of my constituency runs the suggestion that we have a low level of debt and that along the line of the Antonine wall, which not long ago it is not a major problem. The fact that we have more became a world heritage site. than a trillion pounds of national debt is a threat to That brings me to the issue of economic regeneration economic regeneration. The fact that we are spending and tourism. It is frustrating that we underperform in £120 million every single day in debt interest almost that area in the west of Scotland. One of Scotland’s makes me want to weep, because it makes me think 277WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 278WH

[Jo Swinson] the necessary discussions with the Scottish Government on the planning and financial issues involved in the about what else that £120 million could be spent on. We construction of high-speed track in Scotland. I hope can all think of things in our constituencies that would that the Financial Secretary and the Secretary of State promote regeneration and on which that money could for Scotland will encourage the Secretary of State for be well spent, but at the moment it is, effectively, just Transport not to leave that essential work in the slow dead money going on debt interest. lane. The Scottish Government also need to play a In the grand scheme of things, much needs to be done central role in increasing capacity, principally between to promote economic regeneration in Glasgow and Glasgow airport and the city centre, through the elsewhere, but I agree that tackling the deficit has to be reinstatement of capital funding for the Glasgow airport a key part of that. If we do not do that, we will not have rail link, which has—as my hon. Friend pointed out—the the environment that is essential for confident business potential to create 1,300 jobs in the west of Scotland. A growth, which will, ultimately, deliver the further further priority is the upgrade of major roads, such as improvements that we all want to see in Glasgow and the completion of the M74, because half of those who elsewhere. work in Glasgow live in constituencies outside the city’s boundaries—for example, that of the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire. 10.7 am Secondly, more has to be done to tackle Glasgow’s Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It is a historic underperformance in labour productivity, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Gale, particularly in the service sector. BAK Basel Economics in this important debate on the Glasgow economy. I benchmarked Glasgow against a group of 35 European congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow cities, and Glasgow averaged an annual growth rate of East (Margaret Curran) on securing the debate and 2.3% in productivity from 2000 to 2005, which puts it in on speaking with the experience of 12 years as a the top 10 cities. However, Glasgow lay in 33rd place in parliamentarian serving Glasgow, both in this House relation to measures of labour productivity in 2005, and the Scottish Parliament. She was also a champion which is relatively low in comparison with other major for social justice when she was a Minister in a previous EU cities. Thirdly, Glasgow’s economy needs to diversify Scottish Executive. in order to take advantage of the expansion in the renewables sector, of our universities as centres of scientific It is clear that, prior to the global economic downturn and other research excellence, and of high-value-added in 2008, Glasgow was on the cusp of a real economic manufacturing. renaissance. Between 1998 and 2008, there were more Glaswegians in work than ever before, while 30,000 jobs The life science community within the west of Scotland were created in business services—a 60% increase—and is home to 180 companies, including those in Nova more than 4,000 new jobs in the financial services park, Robroyston in my constituency. Those companies sector. Glasgow experienced strong retail growth in that range from major pharmaceuticals, to diagnostics, period, with 1,500 shops in the city centre, which even therapeutics, medical devices, contract researchers and now generate £2.4 billion per year in retail sales turnover. manufacturers, all of which jointly employ more than Glasgow also extracts real economic benefit from tourism, 80,000 people. However, continued business support as the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) from the Government is required to ensure that they has said. The current expansion in hotel capacity is key flourish in the coming decade. to attracting new events and to the hosting of a successful Glasgow is home to a quarter of the west of Scotland’s Commonwealth games in 2014. core energy sector businesses and many other energy Even in recent times, major companies have continued sector supporting businesses. Research undertaken by to invest in Glasgow’s biggest asset, its people, by the sustainable Glasgow initiative found that Glasgow announcing major recruitment programmes. In autumn currently emits around 4 million tonnes of CO2 per 2010, Vertex, a provider of customer management annum, which is linked to its energy use. The initiative outsourcing, announced plans to create 368 jobs, while proposes a series of measures to reduce those carbon 1,500 new jobs have been announced in the financial emissions, such as renewable energy systems, fuel switching sector by Barclays, Santander, esure, Morgan Stanley and energy management systems. and Odyssey Financial Technologies. There has also been a 75% increase in the leasing of office space in the Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): I am speaking city. as a Glasgow constituency Member rather than as an I would like to emphasise three points. First, investment Opposition Front Bencher. I very much welcome what in infrastructure is needed if Glasgow is to remain my hon. Friend has said. Does he agree that Glasgow is competitive in increasing its output in retail and business a perfect location for the new green investment bank services. The particular priorities are upgrading Glasgow’s proposed by the Government, given its track record not drainage and water catchment system to mitigate flood only in financial services, but in innovation and in risks, and improving transport networks. There is an having a connection with the renewable energy sector? overwhelming case for constructing a high-speed rail network from London through the major English cities Mr Bain: I am most grateful for that intervention. As to Glasgow and Edinburgh at the earliest opportunity. on so many other matters, my hon. Friend anticipates That is worth £20 billion in economic benefits to both the argument I was about to advance. She has pointed cities. The city council, the business community, the out why it is particularly regrettable that the creation of Scottish Council for Development and Industry, and the green investment bank, which could kick-start Labour Members are concerned about the lack of many renewable energy projects in Glasgow, has been momentum by the Department for Transport in initiating caught up in a game of Whitehall pass the parcel. As 279WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 280WH the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and From the outset, it is important to recognise the huge Skills revealed last week, plans for capitalisation are amount of regeneration that has taken place in the city unlikely to be published before May at the earliest. It is of Glasgow over the past 13 years. Within my constituency, still uncertain whether the green investment bank will we have seen tremendous regeneration next to the Clyde, have sufficient operational independence from the Treasury, involving the media Hub, the BBC, ITV, the Scottish and there is a wider need for capital for new innovatory Exhibition and Conference Centre development, the business start-ups. In addition, there is a strong argument Clyde auditorium and the science centre. I am pleased for investigating the case for a wider British investment to say that all that development is happening within my bank. constituency.There has also been tremendous development The city council has identified low pay as an area in the city centre. Sauchiehall street and Buchanan requiring urgent attention. In 2006, the average Glaswegian street have the second highest footfall of any UK city earned 2% less than the UK average, but thanks to the centre, second only to Oxford street in London. There adoption of a living wage policy—first of £7 an hour, has also been a huge amount of housing regeneration but rising to £7.15 an hour this year—by 150 businesses right across the city. However, sadly, that has stalled that employ 50,000 people in Glasgow, average earnings through the recession and as a result of these difficult are now 3% above the UK average. times. It would not be fair to leave out the records of the As the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire Scottish and UK Governments in recent months on (Jo Swinson) rightly pointed out, the 2014 Commonwealth assisting Glasgow in developing a strategy for growth. I games will provide a great opportunity to sell Glasgow regret to say that Glasgow has not been particularly not only nationally but globally, and will bring opportunity well served by either Government. The city council for the east end of the city. It is important to recognise experienced a cut in funding of 3.6% from the Scottish that Glasgow has had a tumultuous economic history, Government, which was 1% more than previously indicated and that the growth and development seen in recent and is the worst financial settlement since 2007. Despite years is extremely fragile, particularly in such a tough that, the city council has made job creation, particularly economic climate. All hon. Members present today for young people, a priority. It has invested in the understand that regeneration is driven by economic Commonwealth apprenticeship initiative, through which growth, be it a particular area or the nation as a whole. 241 companies took on 600 apprentices last year, and The regeneration that Glasgow enjoyed under 13 years the Commonwealth jobs fund, which aims to create of a Labour Government is at threat at its roots as a 1,000 jobs for young unemployed people across Glasgow result of inaction from the Scottish Government and a through a £6,500 subsidy per job. That is open to every new UK Government policy. However, as with all private and third-sector employer in the city. development and regeneration, cutting off support too However, it is clear that, at a UK level, the cut in early means cutting the lifeline to projects, which will capital and investment allowances is affecting manufacturing end before they have begun, squandering the initial exporters and harming Glasgow business. The UK investment and leaving communities back where they Government’s failure to continue the future jobs fund started. beyond the spring and the revelations this morning that Therefore, in spite of the current climate, it is important fewer people will proceed through the Government’s that we ask the Government to remember fragile areas work programme than under the initiatives of the previous such as Glasgow when they make cuts and choose Government add to concerns that the hard-earned progress where to invest. That includes cuts to initiatives such as on employment levels of the past 13 years will slip employment zones, and investment in projects such as backwards. As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow high-speed rail. The people of Glasgow have been forgotten East intimated in her remarks, incomes will also be in the past, when the closure of the shipyards left damaged by the Government’s proposals on housing generations unemployed, and I hope this debate will benefit, which it has been estimated will cost £10 million help to ensure that Glasgow is not forgotten again. to £12 million a year in lost spending capacity by the It is important to remember that regeneration is not poorest families and individuals in the city. only about the physical development of new areas through The Glasgow economy has the potential for continued Government and developers investing large amounts of growth in existing and new areas in the next decade, but capital, but giving renewed energy to existing systems it will require Government at all levels to exhibit a and supporting the local economy and local people, so sustained and credible strategy for growth, rather than that Glasgow can regenerate itself from within. One simply a plan for an over-hasty fiscal retrenchment that way that the previous Government began to achieve may cost jobs and damage Glasgow’s competitiveness. that was by supporting unemployed people back into work—an essential step to bring growth back into 10.17 am deprived areas is to increase employment. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I join my Despite investment in Glasgow in the last decade, colleagues in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member which has improved prospects for thousands of people, for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) on securing the the city still has one of the highest unemployment rates debate. During 12 years as an elected Member of both in Scotland and has been hit hard by the recession. The this House and the Scottish Parliament, she has announcement by the Government that they will scrap demonstrated her commitment to the city of Glasgow. I the future jobs fund, which created more than 1,100 jobs am delighted to stand side by side with her and every for Glasgow and 15,500 jobs across Scotland, is devastating. other Glasgow Member of Parliament to say that our The Government insist that their replacement back to first priority is and always will be to stand up for the work programme—when it eventually appears—will provide great city of Glasgow, which we are all proud to be from a more effective system for getting people back to work. and serve. However, in the news just yesterday, we heard that the 281WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 282WH

[Anas Sarwar] even a longer-term plan to link Scotland with the rest of Europe. When we add to that the recent announcement number of people expected to benefit from the scheme that British Midlands International is to stop its Glasgow in 2012-13 will be down by almost 300,000 on the to London service, we can understand the deep concerns number who benefited from the previous Government’s the Scottish business community will have when it finds programme nationwide. competing in the international market increasingly Labour’s employment zones, which were due to be challenging. Both Glasgow and Edinburgh city councils scrapped six months before the new work programme, have come together on this. I can assure you, Mr Gale, were also of great benefit to the city of Glasgow. I am that Glasgow and Edinburgh do not come together on pleased that the Government have done a U-turn on many issues, but they have on high-speed rail. Independent scrapping them six months before the new work programme research conducted for both councils has shown that a had begun. It is a shame that it took Labour party high-speed link could be worth up to £7 billion to the pressure from the Opposition Benches and Glasgow Scottish economy. What Glasgow needs in order to Labour MPs having to fight with the Government to grow is a long-term commitment from the Government make them do that U-turn. The Government should that high-speed rail for Scotland is a top priority, and have seen sense in the first place. that they will endeavour to make it happen at the same time it happens for the north of England. We have to recognise that with regeneration and unemployment, one size does not fit all. The Government Glasgow is a vibrant city and a great place to live, and need to demonstrate that they are paying attention to I wholeheartedly believe that it will continue to grow if areas with serious long-term unemployment problems we can create opportunities for the people living there. through plans to provide focused support to get people There is no real reason why, given the right support, in those areas back to work, particularly given their Glasgow cannot become an economic hub in its own plan to penalise the long-term unemployed with policies right and help to drive growth for the rest of Scotland. such as a 10% cut in their housing benefit. What Glasgow needs is continued commitment from the Government to ensure that those opportunities will Poverty and a lack of opportunity are huge problems begin to appear, and evidence to show that Glasgow has in my constituency, and the cuts to regeneration projects not been forgotten, as it sadly was in the past. such as the Glasgow airport rail link and the Clyde Gateway, coupled with cuts in employment programmes, only threaten to compound the situation. It is important 10.25 am to recognise that the people are willing to work, but jobs Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to must be available for them to fill. It is the growth of serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gale. I begin by Scottish business that will ultimately drive the creation congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow of the economy that Glasgow requires to regenerate East (Margaret Curran) on securing this debate, which itself. Therefore, in addition to supporting work programmes is of crucial importance not only to Glasgow and to and investing capital in Glasgow itself, the Government those who have a concern about and an interest in must be mindful of longer-term policy decisions that Scotland, but to the wider UK economy. I am pleased will affect Glasgow’s independent growth. That includes that she has been supported today by my hon. Friends supporting Glasgow’s growing sectors and ensuring the Members for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), for that it remains well connected. Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) and for Rutherglen and The Glasgow to Edinburgh improvement project will Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) and by my hon. Friend go a long way toward supporting Glasgow’s growth by the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), the improving connectivity between the two cities, reducing shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, who is speaking travel times and costs to businesses, and creating one in a personal capacity today. I also very much welcome central hub. Although strengthening Scotland’s internal the contribution from the hon. Member for East links is important, Glasgow will struggle to present Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). itself as a viable place for start-ups, or to maintain a What struck me about the debate is that my hon. good environment for growth, if it is not adequately Friends have made an important case that is applicable connected to the rest of the UK. The Scottish market not only to Glasgow, but to many other parts of the alone is not large enough to support very large businesses, UK. The key to economic growth and the success of particularly those in manufacturing, and international local economies is partnership. It is about not only what businesses will require strong links with London and government, the voluntary sector or individual the rest of the UK market before they will be attracted entrepreneurial spirit can do, but the partnership that to settling in Glasgow. That is why it is such a concern brings those things together. My hon. Friends have that the plans for High Speed 2 do not currently include discussed national UK Government investment in Scotland, an extension to Scotland. Under the present proposals, economic projects that link Scotland to other parts of journey times between London and Glasgow will be the United Kingdom, the clear benefit that public reduced by only half an hour if High Speed 2 terminates expenditure brings to Scotland and how such public in Manchester. With current proposals planned for expenditure relates to the private and voluntary sectors completion as far off as 2025, that prompts the question and to the social progress of people who live and work of how long Glasgow, and indeed the rest of Scotland, in the great city of Glasgow and the surrounding will have to wait before they benefit from an adequate community. rail connection to the rest of the UK. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East began Britain is already behind our European counterparts by pointing out that Scotland has a great manufacturing, in providing proper high-speed connections—the French cultural and social history, including shipbuilding, the TGV began operating more than 25 years ago. Scotland’s automotive industry and football—one of Glasgow’s growth will be actively disadvantaged if there is not great exports is Kenny Dalglish, who has brought great 283WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 284WH success to my part of the world. The key point is that the private sector, which is so dependent on recovery in that manufacturing history and support is where we Scotland, will suffer. It will be hit by not being able to need to build that partnership for the future. What I create the jobs that would have met some of that capital have taken from the debate is the issue of partnership. expenditure demand. My hon. Friend pointed to real Secondly—my hon. Friends have touched on this, and I challenges in her contribution and was supported by shall return to it—a strategy for growth is needed that other hon. Friends. The Minister needs to recognise involves the public sector, looks at key infrastructure that the front-loading will cause real difficulty. The cuts, projects and helps to develop the voluntary and private which are too quick, will exacerbate unemployment, as sectors. There is also a need—this is key to where the we have seen with the rise today. Government are currently failing—for that strategy, I am sorry that there is no one here from the SNP, but that partnership, that development, and that active I do not wish to intrude on private grief. I represent a government to focus on social fairness. Even at a time constituency in Wales. The nationalists in Wales, to give when there are challenges with the deficit, which we them their due, would have been here to argue their case have all recognised, the way in which the Government if the debate had been on the economy of Cardiff or implement their deficit reduction strategy can, as my Swansea. I am sorry that we have not had a contribution hon. Friends have touched on, damage social fairness from SNP MPs. They might have explained how they and the social fabric of our communities. would implement the draconian cuts at a local level. That is particularly important because—I do not yet Perhaps that is something that we will return to at a have the figures for Scotland—unemployment in the later date, perhaps even outside this Chamber. My hon. United Kingdom rose by 44,000 in the last month to 2.5 Friend may wish to raise this issue elsewhere and discuss million people. Particularly worrying is the rise of 66,000 the SNP’s lack of interest in this debate and in Glasgow. in youth unemployment, which has now risen to 965,000 The capital cuts and, indeed, the revenue cut, which, people between the ages of 16 and 24, which makes a cumulatively, is a 7% reduction in real terms in the total unemployment rate of 7.9%. When the Labour resource budgets of the Scottish Parliament, will impact Government left office in May last year, unemployment heavily on the ability of Glasgow to weather what is still was starting to fall and there were signs of growth after a difficult period coming out of a recession which, as a difficult period. Sadly, I have to report that unemployment my hon. Friend said, was not the fault of the people of will undoubtedly hit the city of Glasgow, as it will Glasgow East, yet they are the very people who will elsewhere in the United Kingdom. have to bear the real hardships caused by public sector My hon. Friends made the case that the Minister has reductions and the Government’s social policies. The to explain key policies that he has promulgated in the rise in VAT and cuts to housing benefit will be extremely House and now has to follow. Those policies are having difficult. The unfairness of those changes hit hardest and will have a severe impact on Glasgow’s economy. the poorest people in Glasgow, whom my hon. Friend We need to challenge them, as my hon. Friend the has represented for 12 years here and in the Scottish Member for Glasgow East has by securing this debate, Parliament. and look at alternatives. We must ensure that however There are some good news stories which should not we tackle the deficit, which we need to do in part—the be forgotten in this debate. Hon. Friends from both Minister knows that when I was a Labour Minister in sides of the Clyde have mentioned the Clyde Gateway the Home Office, the Department had plans to make project and the importance of progressing it. I want to £1.5 billion of savings, so it was something that we were support them from the Opposition Front Bench in their planning to do. However, the scale, pace, depth and endeavours to influence not only the Scottish Executive front-loading of this Government’s cuts are severely but the Westminster Government to ensure that it is a damaging communities in Glasgow and other parts of success. The project embodies the partnership that my the UK. hon. Friends have discussed today. It has the potential The budgets for the devolved Administrations—this to develop large areas of the east end of Glasgow plus is key to my area, Wales—show that the capital budget, Rutherglen and Shawfield in South Lanarkshire. It involves which impacts on housing, education and infrastructure investment of more than £62 million between 2008 and in Glasgow and elsewhere, is being cut by the Government, 2011, with Scottish Enterprise hopefully bringing forward and in Scotland that process is being supported by the £42 million to 2016. It will lever in private sector investment unfair application of the cuts by the Scottish National of up to £1.5 billion for private development, which will party-led Government. The £3.4 billion of capital spending create jobs and homes. in 2010-11 that was planned by the Labour Government The project is symptomatic of why the Government’s will be cut by this Government to £2.3 billion of capital approach to public spending is so wrong. The Clyde spending in 2014-15. The cut is from £3.4 billion Gateway scheme shows that public-private partnership this year to £2.5 billion in 2011-12, which makes a can create jobs, homes and social progress. It is not a £900 million cut in the capital programme. one-size-fits-all scheme, in which the public sector appears My hon. Friend mentioned that her constituency has to be the devil to all other aspects of society. The had no investment in schools thanks to the SNP Government are committed to reducing the public sector, Government in Scotland and that it faces difficult challenges not only to reduce the deficit but because they do not in respect of housing and infrastructure. Those issues like public spending and public investment as a whole. will be magnified tremendously by this Government’s I hope that the Minister will endorse and support the £900 million cut to the Scottish Executive’s budget. Clyde Gateway scheme, that the UK Government will Again, there are ways in which we can tackle deficit give it succour, and that that will also apply to the 2014 reduction, but that level of drop front-loaded in the first Commonwealth games. As my hon. Friends have said, year will hit Glasgow and other parts of the UK extremely the games will be a key economic generator and will put hard. The £900 million cut for Scotland will mean that the spotlight on Glasgow’s tourism potential. They will 285WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 286WH

[Mr David Hanson] in Edinburgh but in Glasgow. The growth and development of renewable energy projects, with the support that the be a showcase for the great skills of the people of UK Government can give, are real and positive things. Glasgow and for the city’s great attributes. They will My hon. Friends and I came to the debate with severe involve £1 billion of investment in infrastructure, 1,000 criticisms of Government policy. While needing to tackle additional jobs and 15,000 volunteers—the big society the deficit, the Government have gone too far, too fast. will be alive in Glasgow, irrespective of any Conservative However, we can work with the UK Government on party initiatives, which mean, in effect, a small state. I some real positives, as well as with the Scottish Executive hope that the Minister will touch on that proposal which, hopefully, will be under the control of the Labour today, recognise that it will result in economic growth party after May this year. We could build on the strengths and development in Glasgow, and support it. and the will of the people of Glasgow to develop their Despite those positives, the Government’s policies on own future by attracting new businesses and visitors, public spending and also on social issues will damage and by ensuring that the success of the Commonwealth the economy of Glasgow. My hon. Friend the Member games showcases that great city to the rest of the for Glasgow East picked up on various points. Linking United Kingdom. local housing allowance to the consumer prices index I am grateful for the opportunity provided by today’s will result in lower income for people locally. The cut to debate, which is the first that my hon. Friend the housing benefit ignores the fact that, in an area with Member for Glasgow East has secured in Westminster rising unemployment, long-term unemployed people Hall; I hope that it will be a success. I look forward to who are trying their best to find work, who are going to the Minister defending his draconian cuts but also, I interviews and sending out applications and who are hope, working with my colleagues to ensure that he can turning up at the Jobcentre but are still unable to secure mitigate those cuts and develop a strategy for growth employment will face a reduction in their income. for Glasgow into the future. My hon. Friend knows that if the people of Glasgow East find that they are unemployed and that their housing benefit has been cut, the money that they lose 10.42 am will not be spent in Glasgow. They will not be spending in local shops, supporting the local economy and voluntary The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark organisations, or creating local jobs with that resource Hoban): I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow in the east end of Glasgow. We add poverty to poverty East (Margaret Curran) on securing the debate. She by taking unfair cuts forward. struck me as passionate about her city, its people and their prospects. I commend that, and it will serve her Glasgow has a younger population compared with well in this place. the rest of Scotland, and, sadly, youth unemployment I have to disappoint the hon. Member for Rutherglen will disproportionately hit that area hardest. The future and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), but I am not sure jobs fund has been mentioned. It had the potential to that I need much of a history or geography lesson about create 200,000 full-time, paid jobs for young people up the city. I have visited Glasgow quite frequently, I have and down the country, and Glasgow would have had its met businesses in Glasgow and I am going to Edinburgh share. There will be real problems in the future because next month. [Interruption.] I know there is some fraternal of that cut. rivalry between the cities, but the hon. Member for I was pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) is in her place representing Glasgow North East mentioned the living wage campaign. Edinburgh and ensuring that the Glaswegians do not That is a big society issue: companies, voluntary get everything their own way. I understand some of the organisations and the council are agreeing to pay a challenges in the Scottish economy. Having been born living wage and working together because they recognise, and brought up in the north-east, I recognise from my without the Government telling them to be part of a big own region some of the trends referred to by the hon. society, that they have a partnership interest in the Members, such as the decline in shipbuilding, or in coal future of Glasgow. Many of the challenges are self-evident, mining, as mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. I see but the Government are adding to them by front-loading strong parallels. public expenditure cuts too fast and too deep. However, I congratulate other right hon. and hon. Members, Glasgow has real positives for future growth, such as including my hon. Friend the Member for East the Commonwealth games and the Clyde Gateway, Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), on participating in the which we should celebrate on a UK basis. debate and making the case for their constituencies. Another issue that has been mentioned today is tourism. Before I turn to the main text of my contribution, let I was struck by the strong representations to extend the me deal with four areas mentioned by a range of speakers. high-speed rail link along the west coast main line from First, it is vital for Glasgow to use the Commonwealth the current proposal, which would run from London to games as an opportunity for economic development. I the west midlands and through to Manchester. I use note the job creation initiatives around the games. Some that London to Glasgow main line, because I get off at lessons could be learnt from the London Olympics, not Crewe and go west. There is an argument for looking at only in the regeneration provided for east London but such investment over the long term, to ensure that we in how the games are a focal point for businesses to enhance the high-speed link. promote the benefits of London as a place of inward My hon. Friends pleaded for serious consideration of investment. I encourage people in Glasgow to work developing new industries in Glasgow and made a closely with the Olympic authorities in London to strong case for the green investment bank to be placed understand the opportunity to attract inward investment in the city, growing the financial services sector not only and to raise the profile of the city. 287WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 288WH

The Clyde Gateway, as with the spending for the have had many debates on such issues—is that the Commonwealth games, is a devolved matter, for previous Government set out cuts starting from April prioritisation by the Scottish Government, but I am this year that would have been only £2 billion less than sure that Scottish Enterprise will have heard the strong the cuts we have outlined. When he talks about front- messages from this morning’s debate. However, if MPs loading, he ought to think about the previous Government’s and others from Glasgow wish to see funding devoted plans and acknowledge that the cuts this year are only to that project, they must place pressure on the Scottish £2 billion more than in the plans we inherited. All parts authorities. of the UK, including Scotland, must bear their share of I will raise with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of the deficit reduction made necessary by what we inherited State for Transport the issues about the completion of from the previous Government. High Speed 2, which affects a number of areas of the Funding for the Scottish Government in the spending country not covered by the current route, such as the review reflects the Government’s commitment to invest northern part of England as well as Scotland. I will in infrastructure and to ensure that conditions for growth ensure that he is aware of the concerns expressed. are in place throughout the UK. The spending review On the green investment bank, I am afraid that increased capital funding in the UK by £2 billion compared Glasgow will have to join the queue of bidders for the with June’s Budget plans, which is more than what the headquarters. A number of parts of the country have previous Government had set out as their capital plans made representations through their Members for the for the new Parliament. I repeat, the right hon. Gentleman site of the headquarters. Green investment is a huge must be careful what he criticises: we have been more opportunity for economic growth and development. generous in our capital settlement than his Government Existing skills in local communities or in the universities had intended. We are keen to ensure that capital expenditure serving those areas can be used to promote renewable is used to protect projects with high, long-term economic energy and green industries. The issue affects all parts value and that spending is focused on investment promoting of the country but, at the time of the Budget, my right economic growth, including in transport, science, regional hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that growth, digital infrastructure and supporting the low-carbon at least £250 million from the green investment bank economy. Glasgow MPs need to challenge the Scottish will be spent in Scotland. We have not lost sight of the Government on how they will prioritise their budgets to important role such investment can play in stimulating deliver those objectives. These are devolved matters, economic growth. and the Scottish Government are accountable for the priorities they set and how they respond to the needs of As pointed out by the hon. Member for Glasgow Scotland. East, Glasgow was at the forefront of the industrial revolution and it remains one of the most important Margaret Curran: I take the point about devolved and innovative cities in the UK. It is Scotland’s largest matters, and we do pursue those. Housing benefit, urban economy, generating £13 billion gross value added however, is a reserved matter. Will the Minister confirm each year and supporting 400,000 jobs. As we heard, whether the Government are going ahead with the 10% the jobs are enjoyed by those living not only in Glasgow cut in housing benefit after a year to those receiving but in the surrounding areas, as part of the economy of jobseeker’s allowance? the west of Scotland. We want to work in partnership with the Scottish Mr Hoban: I will return to the issue of housing Government to promote our shared objective of increasing benefit in a moment. Let us be clear: the Scottish economic prosperity for all in Scotland and Glasgow. Government have not suffered disproportionate cuts. As mentioned, economic regeneration policies are largely Funding has been determined by the Barnett formula in a matter for the Scottish Government and their local the usual way. The percentage of Scottish Government authorities and agencies, which was evidenced by the total reduction in departmental expenditure limits for criticism made by the hon. Lady of the Scottish National 2014-15 is below the UK average—they are getting a party Government. I am sure she will take every opportunity better spending settlement than the rest of the UK. over the coming weeks to remind SNP Members of that Public spending per head in Scotland is substantially and to question their non-attendance today. above the UK average and is expected to remain so over Setting out the Government’s economic strategy and the spending review period. The Scottish Government its impact on Scotland—in particular, Glasgow—will have benefited from substantial increases in spending be helpful. We set out three strands last year: first, to since devolution. reduce the deficit inherited from the previous Government; If we are to promote strong and sustainable economic secondly, to increase economic growth, including by growth that is evenly shared across the country and rebalancing the economy throughout all the countries between industries, we need to tackle the debt and and regions of the UK; and, thirdly, to promote fairness deficit that we inherited. The Government are inviting for all. businesses to take part in a fundamental review into what each area of Government is doing to address the As my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire barriers facing industry. They have already acted to rightly pointed out, we have a deficit to tackle and we remove barriers to growth, and the growth review are spending £120 million on interest every day—we announced last year set in train an intensive programme spend more in interest than we do on schools. Clearly, of work to drive forward action on the Government’s we need to resolve that issue if we are to support priority areas. That relentless focus on growth will economic growth, keep interest rates low and protect continue to form the basis of the Government’s agenda jobs in all parts of the UK. for the rest of this Parliament. We started by focusing The reality that the right hon. Member for Delyn on planning, trade and inward investment, competition, (Mr Hanson) keeps trying to escape from—he and I regulation, access to finance and corporate governance. 289WH Economic Regeneration (Glasgow)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) 290WH

[Mr Hoban] Increasing fairness is a strand of our work, and that point was touched on by a number of hon. Members. The review will look at all sectors of the economy, We must be clear about the important reforms to welfare but we have first identified six key sectors: advanced set out by the Government. I recognise that there is a manufacturing; digital and creative industries; business degree of support for those reforms from Labour party and professional services; retail; construction; and health Members, but we clearly need to improve work incentives care and life sciences. Manufacturing is a strong part of and get more people into work. Too many people must the Scottish economy, and it has seen six consecutive make a decision about whether they can afford to go to quarters of growth. That is a helpful sign of the rebalancing work, or whether the system means that they are trapped of the economy. on benefits. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is setting out As the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, financial plans for the universal benefit, which will be introduced services is my specialist topic, and the importance of from 2016. It means that for new claimants, it will financial services to Glasgow has been mentioned a always be better to be in work than on benefits. That couple of times during the debate. In 2009, I visited sends a positive signal that people should take employment National Australia Bank at the Clydesdale branch in opportunities and will be better off if they do. That is Glasgow and spoke to management and businesses not just economically better off—significant social benefits from the west of Scotland. The financial sector is one of flow from people being in work. the most significant contributors to UK GDP and employment, and although London is the heart of that The future jobs fund was mentioned by a number of industry, there are important financial centres across hon. Members, and it is a convenient soundbite to say the country, including in Glasgow. Financial services that the fund has been scrapped. We should all recognise, firms in Scotland account for 9% of total UK employment however, that many of the jobs that were funded were in the sector. temporary and many were in the public sector and did not represent good value for money. That is why we are Financial services is one of the biggest employers in bringing forward the Work programme that will strengthen Glasgow. In 2008, 95,000 people were employed in support for those seeking to get into work. financial services firms in Scotland, and many of those The hon. Lady mentioned housing benefit. She will jobs were based in Glasgow. Major local employers recognise—as do a number of her colleagues—that the include National Australia Group, which I referred to bill for housing benefit increased significantly under the earlier, and Lloyds Banking Group. I know that Glasgow previous Government. There are some anomalies in has recognised the potential role that financial services how the system works and the way that it distorts can play in a growing economy. The £750 million joint incentives. That is why it is important to restructure public-private venture investment in the international housing benefit and engage in reforms. We recognise the financial services district could bring an extra 20,000 challenges that that will create, which is why additional jobs to the city. money has been set aside to help manage the transition. We often think of the strong tradition of businesses The hon. Lady also spoke about defence and that are based in Scotland, but we should not lose sight shipbuilding. She will know that some of the work on of the fact that many international financial services the new aircraft carriers is being done on the River that we associate with Canary Wharf and the City have Clyde, just as some is being done in Portsmouth just significant operations outside London. Morgan Stanley outside my constituency in the Vosper Thornycroft is in Glasgow, as are Deutsche Bank and Citibank. yard. The astute-class submarines will also be based in Those global businesses chose to locate some of their Scotland and there is a great deal of support for Glasgow operations to Glasgow, which shows that the benefit of from central Government. However, if we are to achieve having London as a global financial services centre the great goals of this Government to rebalance the spreads beyond the boundaries of the square mile. We economy, spread wealth and prosperity, create jobs and are doing as much as we can to ensure that the UK ensure that prosperity continues across the nation, not remains an attractive and competitive place for financial just in London and the greater south-east, difficult services to do business. decisions have to be made. We must tackle the deficit and find ways to remove some of the barriers to growth As well as measures for the financial services sector, in the UK. That is why the Government are committed we must ensure that the UK is a good place for inward to the growth review and to ensuring that we do as investment. In the Budget we announced plans to reduce much as possible to remove the barriers to economic the rate of corporation tax from 28% to 24% over the growth. next four years. We published a corporate tax road map Having claimed part of Merseyside and north Wales, that set out a significant programme of corporate tax the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) spoke reforms designed to restore the UK’s tax competitiveness, about the importance of partnership. It is important to including reform of the controlled foreign company recognise the way that Scottish local authorities have regime. The Government are responding to business worked with the private sector on a number of initiatives concerns about the instability and unpredictability of to support economic growth. We need to see more such the UK tax system while taking action where they can partnerships but we must also tackle some of the underlying to improve the UK’s competitiveness. We will work with issues that we inherited from the previous Government, our partners in the Scottish Government and elsewhere including the deficit and the national debt. Alongside to ensure that Scotland is an attractive place in which to tackling those things, we must lay the foundations for do business. increased prosperity across the whole United Kingdom. 291WH 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Infrastructure Planning Commission 292WH

Infrastructure Planning Commission making process for major infrastructure, whether that involves hospitals or whatever else being built in their area. 10.59 am The national policy statements are open to public consultation. While still in draft form and before the Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): It is a relevant national policy statement has been designated pleasure to see you in the Chair again, Mr Gale. The by the Secretary of State, the IPC can still consider the Infrastructure Planning Commission is examining an evidence, but the Secretary of State will make the final application from an American waste company by the decision. To date, the national policy statement remains name of Covanta to build an incinerator masquerading in draft form. The Select Committee on Energy and as an energy-from-waste plant in my constituency. Each Climate Change, of which I am a former member, has year, it will burn 585,000 tonnes of waste, which will be published its report on the six revised national policy sourced from Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire, statements. It has made 18 recommendations, the more Cambridgeshire and, frankly, anywhere in the country important of which is about the timing of the statements. that will feed the incinerator. On the basis that what The Committee calls for the national policy statements goes up must come down, it will do so on my constituents. not to be designated until the Localism Bill has been We do not buy the argument that the fly ash and the enacted, the abolition of the IPC has occurred and the emissions from the incinerator’s chimneys will be completely national planning policy framework and national harmless, because the particles are too small to measure infrastructure plan are operational and harmonised in the atmosphere. As it is too difficult to capture and with the electricity market reform process. measure the particles, it is not possible to say that what will be emitted from the incinerator will be harmless. The IPC has published the following statements: Not surprisingly, the proposal has met with furious “If the NPSs which apply to a proposal are adopted before the opposition in my constituency. Constituents, campaign point of decision making on a project, the IPC will make the decision. groups, local authorities and 24 town and parish councils—I can assure people that it is no mean feat for 24 town and If the relevant NPSs have not been adopted at the point of decision making on a project, the IPC will make a recommendation parish councils to work together on one issue—are all to the Secretary of State”. burning the midnight oil preparing written submissions urging the IPC to reject this diabolical application for I say to my right hon. Friend the Minister that this is a an incinerator. fundamental question. Given that the IPC hopes to conclude its own consultation by July and make a The examination will run until 15 July and the IPC decision in October, will he please inform us on which should reach its decision by 15 October. Before the IPC date the national policy statements will be designated? process existed, there would normally have been public examination, with cross-examination of witnesses. My To date, my constituents have been forced into constituents would have had the opportunity to express Kafkaesque engagement with a body that is to be and make known their views, probably via a public abolished, with no certainty about whether the national inquiry. The Secretary of State used to take the final policy statement guiding the IPC examination will be decision after having all the information in front of altered once the deadline for written submissions has them and did not have to accept the recommendations passed. If the national policy statements are altered and made by the planning inquiry or the inspector, provided designated after the existing public consultation period that they gave good reason. However, the previous has passed, will the Minister agree that my constituents, Government’s Stalinist approach to that democratic after having digested a 7,400-page document, will have process was the Planning Act 2008, which transferred provided their submissions on the basis of documents the final decision to a new independent body—the that are no longer relevant and therefore the IPC process Infrastructure Planning Commission. relating to the Covanta incinerator in my constituency must be abolished—scrapped—and begun again on the Evidence is considered by the IPC primarily in writing, basis of the relevant designated documents? How can a unless it chooses to hold an oral evidence session. Note process of public consultation exist if the information the word “chooses”. The IPC chooses, not local people. constituents are given is no longer relevant by the time Legally, the Secretary of State has no opportunity the IPC makes its decision? My constituents will have whatever to overturn the IPC’s decision. The IPC makes been providing consultation responses based on one set its decisions mainly on the basis of the relevant national of rules and the IPC will be making its decision based policy statement. These statements are open to public on another, which will enable the IPC to disregard consultation and to consideration by Select Committees completely the public consultation as it will no longer before approval by the Secretary of State. be relevant when the IPC makes its decision. Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): I congratulate my The consultation process as run by the IPC has been hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does she agree that woeful and undemocratic. Either the Government are wider issues are at stake? Not only on incinerators but wide-eyed localist or they are not. The IPC is not and is on a number of different planning applications, it is at odds with present Government policy. On Monday vital that local people feel engaged and have had their 17 January, at 10 o’clock on a cold morning in Bedford, say. Whatever the outcome might be, at least they have the IPC held a public hearing—nowhere near the had their say and put their case. Does my hon. Friend community where the facility is to be placed. Guidance agree that that is vital? was given to my constituents not to instruct lawyers and not to take legal advice. However, when my constituents Nadine Dorries: Absolutely. I will go into more detail arrived at the public hearing, they found that both the about how undemocratic the IPC process is and how local authorities and the IPC had brought their team of local people are completely excluded from the decision- lawyers along with them. The atmosphere was, to say 293WH Infrastructure Planning Commission16 FEBRUARY 2011 Infrastructure Planning Commission 294WH

[Nadine Dorries] The IPC timetable is very inflexible, short and tight. That is why people missed the registration point. If the the least, intimidating as lawyers played legal ping-pong timetable had not been so tight and inflexible, there with one another. Only the bravest of my constituents might have been room for adjustments and amendments felt able to stand up and contribute. They had been told where people had, for example, made errors with e-mails, before the hearing took place the issues they were not but there was absolutely none—everything was played allowed to discuss. One of those was noise, which is according to the IPC’s rules, with absolutely no actually one of the biggest considerations for my consideration given to the difficulties local people might constituents. have in engaging with this complicated and bureaucratic process. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The An unelected official in the IPC or the Department hon. Lady’s party and I opposed this whole process for Communities and Local Government should not under the last Government. It is being played out take a decision to impose a major infrastructure project exactly as we predicted—undemocratically; not taking on a local community when almost every man, woman into account local people’s views. Does she agree that and child is against it. The only representation those whatever system is put in place, and whatever the policy people have is via their elected representatives. statements or framework, it must take into account local views but must also be accountable to and amendable If, despite the objections of local people, the Government by Parliament? believe that it is vital in the national interest for an application to be approved, that judgment should be the responsibility of the Secretary of State in the relevant Nadine Dorries: I completely agree. I hope that when Department, and it should be reached only after a the IPC is abolished—the present Government have thorough examination of local people’s wishes. There committed to abolishing it and bringing the functions should be a thorough examination of the application, in-house—the fact that the Secretary of State will have and people should have the opportunity to attend meetings the final decision and that, hopefully, we will go back to and make their feelings known. Of course, people in my the previous system of public engagement and inquiries constituency may absolutely support the current project, means there will at least be a more democratic process. but I do not think that that is the case. The Secretary of Of course, that will need to be discussed in Parliament, State should halt the IPC process using the powers in and I hope we will take a vote on it. the Planning Act, so that all participants can contribute To return to that cold Monday morning in Bedford, to the process and so that a clear decision can be made. only the bravest of my constituents, as I said, stood up to speak at the meeting. All left it feeling that they had The process of finalising the national policy statements, not really had an opportunity to express their concerns on which the IPC would base a decision, will prejudice about the proposal. the application if it is carried out at the same time as the application is being considered. A legal process cannot The application document my constituents had to be deemed reasonable and fair if the goalposts are plough through to submit objections was 7,400 pages moved while it is being carried out. If the national long and was available online, so those who were not policy statements are designated during the IPC computer literate and did not have access to a computer examination process, any changes in the final versions were disadvantaged. There were a limited number of will not be reflected in the process that has taken place hard copies, people had to pay hundreds of pounds for up to that time. them and they were available only at certain locations. How is that democratic? The people who wanted to At present, I and the residents of Mid Bedfordshire respond to the documents could not even get hold of have no idea who will take the final decision or on what them. Furthermore, constituents’ initial representations basis they will do so. If the national policy statements were limited to 500 words, but the document they were are not finalised before the Secretary of state makes a responding to was 7,400 pages long. Why is that? How decision, any other matters taken into account in reaching can that be democratic? the decision will not have been subject to examination. Any recommendation made by the IPC on the basis of Only a limited number of hard-copy registration the national policy statements should be disregarded forms were available to those who did not have access to because they lack democratic legitimacy. Furthermore, a computer. People had to complete those forms to the IPC process relies on a limited number of rounds inform the IPC that they were going to object to or, of written submissions, which does not allow detailed indeed, support the proposals, although I imagine that examination of the key issues that matter to local most people wanted to object. Given the limited number people. of forms, however, those who wanted to let the IPC know that they were going to object could not even do Is the Minister aware that Mid Bedfordshire is largely that. flat? In fact, Bedfordshire is known for being flat until Those who made a submission online met a barrage one reaches the Dunstable downs. The incinerator is to of problems. For example, the registration process had be in the centre of Marston vale, so it can be viewed a cut-off date. Once that date had passed, some people from almost every vantage point in the constituency received e-mails telling them that they had not ticked a and will absolutely blight the view from all of them—it particular box on the very detailed form and that they can be seen from every raised point from Ampthill park had to resubmit the form, but the submission date had to the Millennium park. passed. It seemed that lots of tricks were employed to Is the Minister also aware that the constituency proudly minimise the number of objections so that the IPC and recycles more that 50% of its waste? Central Bedfordshire Covanta could say that there was not that much public council has worked hard to educate and inform people opposition. about the importance of recycling. If the incinerator is 295WH Infrastructure Planning Commission16 FEBRUARY 2011 Infrastructure Planning Commission 296WH granted planning permission, all that recycling, education My hon. Friend argued that the decision on where a and work will go to waste because everything will be fed piece of infrastructure of national significance should into this monstrous machine. be located should not be determined by an unelected As the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John body in defiance of local people’s wishes; I entirely McDonnell) said, the Conservative party predicted this agree. Projects such as major roads, reservoirs and problem with the IPC. However, I am running out of power plants are essential to our health and well-being time, so I would like to have a clear answer from the and to the nation’s economic future. They have a major Minister on a number of points. When will the national influence on society’s impact on the environment, helping policy statements be designated? If they are designated us reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and cut our during the process taking place in my constituency, and carbon footprint. They form the legacy that we leave the after my constituents have made their submissions, does next generation. It is right to have a regime to consider the Minister agree that the process should be stopped? those major applications, which recognises their larger- My constituents will have made their submissions on than-local aspect. the basis of information that is no longer relevant and It is worth observing that all the existing municipal considerations into which they will have had no input. incinerators in England contribute less in annual emissions Will the Minister please understand that we are not than bonfire night—a single night. It is worth putting talking about a group of nimbys in Mid Bedfordshire the matter in perspective. However, I believe that when complaining about something that will affect just a few the relevant decisions are made there should be—as people? The geographical lay-out of my constituency there are not with the decisions of the IPC—elected means that everyone there is angry about this issue. Members who are accountable. Unfortunately, we have Everybody is incensed about how dreadful this application inherited from the previous Government a system in is and about what a disaster it will be for Mid Bedfordshire which, ludicrously, the final decisions about when and if it goes through. where major developments should take place are made by the IPC, an unelected quango that is unaccountable 11.16 am to the public. I mean no disrespect to the people who The Minister of State, Department for Communities work there, who have been given a remit in legislation. and Local Government (Greg Clark): It is a pleasure to They discharge that remit, I am sure, to the best of their serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gale. I warmly ability, but they have been caught in a situation that is congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid fundamentally undemocratic. That is an astonishing Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) on securing the debate. deficit of democracy, and the arrangement must go. She spoke with her characteristic passion in representing her constituents. They are fortunate to be represented Nadine Dorries: The point about bonfire night has by one of the most tenacious campaigners in the House. been raised several times, almost as a smokescreen—if There is no cause that my hon. Friend takes up that she hon. Members will excuse the pun. The emissions from does not take up with verve, passion and the greatest an incinerator are constant and daily—they continue tenacity. In recent months, she has worked hard to raise day and night. The incinerator will burn for 24 hours a the profile of this issue in the House. She has organised day. Bonfire night is one night of the year. We took rallies in Mid Bedfordshire; she has written to me; we evidence from Professor Paul Connett from America, have spoken in person; and she has raised her concerns the world’s leading authority on energy from waste. The at Prime Minister’s questions—she has taken the matter emissions from the incineration are constant. Companies right to the top. Everyone should reflect on the vigour such as Covanta frequently breach their licences—the with which she pursues these matters. company is in court in the States at the moment. They I was pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for frequently release toxic emissions into the air. I grant Ilford North (Mr Scott) and the hon. Member for the Minister that if they kept to their licences and Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) in the Chamber. operated as they are supposed to, there might be merit That shows that the process that the IPC was set up to in the bonfire night argument, but history shows that operate under is a matter of cross-party concern. I hope such incinerators do not operate as they are supposed that the Government will have the support of the whole to, because they break the law almost daily and release House when it comes to abolishing the IPC in the into the atmosphere emissions that they should not. Localism Bill, which is currently in Committee, but The comparison with bonfire night cannot be made. which will return to the Floor of the House on Report and Third Reading in a few weeks’ time. It is useful to know that the issue goes beyond my hon. Friend’s Greg Clark: It is important that any facility that is or constituency. will be licensed, wherever it is, should stick to any terms I have listened carefully to my hon. Friend. For the and conditions of the licence. I am sure that Department reasons she set out, she will appreciate that it is not of Energy and Climate Change Ministers, who are in possible for me to comment on the merits of the incinerator. charge, along with our colleagues in the Department for If the national policy statements are not designated Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, of supervising before the decision is made, it would fall to the Secretary those issues, will reflect on what my hon. Friend has of State—that is shorthand for the ministerial team said and try to ensure that there is the greatest possible at the Department for Communities and Local confidence in the adherence to those conditions. Government—to determine the application. Given that We are determined to introduce reforms in the Localism today’s proceedings have a bearing on that process, it is Bill. I look forward, as I am sure my hon. Friend does, important that I do not prejudice my view of the to the day when it is passed. However, provided that the application. However, I have heard what my hon. Friend national policy statements on energy are designated as has said, and I will comment on each of her points. Let we expect, we anticipate that the application in question me take in turn the three general points that she made. will be decided by the IPC alone, without the possibility 297WH Infrastructure Planning Commission16 FEBRUARY 2011 Infrastructure Planning Commission 298WH

[Greg Clark] My hon. Friend raised an important point about the role of national policy statements and the likely timing of ministerial intervention. That is the system that we of their designation. She knows, having served on the have been bequeathed. An observer might ask, as my Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Friend does, why, if Ministers believe that there reasons why it is crucial, when we face a prospective should be democratic accountability, they do not scrap crisis in generating capacity, to get investment in that the IPC and the regime under which the planning capacity. The nuclear programme is important to that. application was submitted. However strong the temptation We have always said that we want to bring national may be, Ministers must obey the law. planning policy statements to the House as quickly as The law is at odds with Government policy, but we possible. live in a parliamentary democracy and cannot rule by My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for decree. There have been recent examples relevant to Energy and Climate Change has not yet responded to that. I think my hon. Friend is familiar with the case of the Select Committee, and it is for him to respond to its CALA Homes, concerning the revocation of the regional concerns about process, but it is the Government’s view spatial strategies, in which the courts determined that that we should get on as soon as possible and allow however clear the Government’s intention to abolish Parliament the chance to ratify those statements in the those strategies, we need to go through the parliamentary interest of energy security and, indeed, investment in process to abolish them, rather than anticipate that that important area of national life. However, there is abolition. The courts were clear on that. The fact that clearly a possibility that the statements might not be we took the decision that resulted in the court case designated, and then the decision in question would shows the Government’s desire to do as much as possible come to the Secretary of State. I do not want to raise my to implement our policy as quickly as possible, which is hon. Friend’s hopes and create an expectation that that important. However, for good reasons we are required will happen, because the opposite is to be expected. My to go through the House to pass legislation. When it right hon. Friend will respond to the Committee in due comes to abolishing not only the IPC but the current course. procedures for considering major infrastructure applications, We are in an unfortunate position. I commend my that is what we must do. We are constrained in that way. hon. Friend for the vigour with which she is pursuing My hon. Friend raised concerns that the process of the matter. She is right to make sure that her constituents’ pre-consultation has been defective. I have listened to voices are heard. Of course, even under the existing her carefully and will immediately take up with the IPC flawed system, the IPC has a duty to consider local all the points that she made. It is crucial that consultation people’s voices, and I shall, as I have said, pass on to it should be fair and open, so that people can give their her comments about the process to date. It is worth views even in a system that we both agree is flawed. It pointing out that the IPC has not yet made a decision. I should facilitate the meaningful involvement of all those hope that the debate is an opportunity to explain to my who want to be involved in the process. It is important hon. Friend’s constituents what I think she knows, that local people should be able to be heard in person being expert in the matter, about the constraints, and and demand an open hearing. The onus is also on any the requirements on the IPC for consultation and to organisation that carries out a consultation to ensure share our frustration—we would rather not be in this that its electronic procedures are widely accessible and world. I hope that the next time we discuss the issues, it compatible with the systems that users are likely to will be after the passage of the Localism Bill, and that have. Organisations should not have an inaccessible the IPC will be dead and buried and replaced by a system, which they should design with users in mind. I system that my hon. Friend and I—and, I think, the shall immediately get in touch with the IPC on the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington—want. That is points that my hon. Friend raised. a system in which major decisions of national importance are taken through a fast-track, streamlined procedure, The Planning Act 2008 specifies, as my hon. Friend with a Minister ultimately responsible to the House knows, a narrow range of conditions in which Ministers and, through the Government, to the nation, in charge can take decisions out of the IPC’s hands, which is our of making the decisions. difficulty. Those conditions include questions of national security and defence. Even if we wanted to stop the 11.30 am process, I do not believe the law would allow us to do so. Sitting suspended. 299WH 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 300WH

Pubs (Planning Policy) Similarly, it is perfectly legal under the planning system, overnight and without any consultation with the community, to turn the local pub into a Tesco, a betting shop, a restaurant or a café—businesses that do [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] not have the same community function and that are not a community hub in the same way that a pub is.

2.30 pm Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Does Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I am my hon. Friend agree that large supermarket chains are pleased to have secured this important debate and to see using pub buildings as a way of getting around the once again some of my pub supporting and friendly regulations that require them to have permission for an colleagues, who come from both sides of the House. It additional store. Often the pubs are quite large, bigger is important to remember that the matter affects each than something that a supermarket would otherwise and every one of us as constituency MPs. We are all require permission for. doing our best to preserve and support the great British pub, a wonderful institution that is of considerable Greg Mulholland: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. importance to our communities. I call it predatory purchasing. The supermarkets deliberately I am delighted once again to have the opportunity to target pubs because they are a soft touch. The Government be debating the subject with my hon. Friend the Minister, have said that they want to be a pro-pub Government, who is responsible for community pubs in his role at the and I am proud of that, but they also want to be a Department for Communities and Local Government. decentralising Government that believes in localism. As I hope that, like me, he sees the debate as being part of a part of that, they will have to show that such things are conversation between us and the all-party save the pub not acceptable without the community being consulted. group, one that will continue during this Parliament. That is happening because the planning system is weak, That conversation may sometimes happen here in and Tesco and the other supermarkets know that and Westminster Hall and sometimes in parliamentary or exploit it. ministerial offices, but due to our genuine interest I The scandal goes on. Pubs are being closed every hope that it will continue sometimes to happen in the week that are not only viable in terms of making a pub. profit, but are successful and profitable at the time of We had a well-attended debate a few weeks ago, in closure. Those closures often happen against the wishes which we heard that the British pub faces many problems. of the small businessmen and women who run the pub There is the problem of the pub codes of practice and and making a living from it. That is a scandal, and it their distortion of the beer tie; there is the problem of must be stopped. the supermarket ban, with unreasonably low prices and below-cost selling; and there is a problem with various John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): aspects of regulation. All those factors cause real concern. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate and on his ongoing work on the matter. Does he What is sometimes lost in our debates, perhaps agree that an examination of the planning regulations deliberately so, is the one thing could save the British and their potential weakness should extend to those pub, almost at the stroke of a pen but certainly at the bowling greens that are connected to pubs? Many are stroke of the parliamentary printing press as many of being sold off without consultation, leaving many bowlers these problems are covered by secondary legislation, with no place to practise their prize sport. and that is to strengthen planning law to recognise the importance that pubs play in our communities. At the Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Gentleman for moment, that is not happening. raising that point. The all-party save the pub group We are all aware of what successive Governments would be interested to talk to him, because such bowling have done, and I make no criticism here. I pay tribute to greens are often part of our heritage, and another the Minister’s predecessor, my right hon. Friend the community facility that is associated with the pub. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), who also took a genuine interest in the subject. It is easy Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I congratulate my to say positive things about the importance of the pub, hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I give an but until that is recognised in a meaningful way within example of the problem from my constituency.A successful the planning system, many of our efforts in trying to pub was recently threatened with closure because a protect and save our local pubs will be wasted. local housing charity had targeted it specifically for At the moment, we have the extraordinary situation housing. Thankfully, the pub and the community won that a free-standing pub—one that is clearly not connected the day, and the pub was saved. The pub was targeted to another building—that is not listed or in a conservation because the charity saw a loophole in the planning area and that has no other protection under planning system. It must be closed. I thank my hon. Friend for law, can be demolished overnight. That can be done raising the matter; it is an important point that we must without planning permission, never mind consulting press. the community, something that my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) highlighted Greg Mulholland: I thank my hon. Friend and near in his Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill, a constituency neighbour. He is absolutely right. As with private Member’s Bill that was supported by the all–party all successful pub closure campaigns, I congratulate group. I shall speak a little more about that later, and I him and his community on having the courage to fight am sure that my hon. Friend will want to contribute to that campaign. Sadly, given our weak planning laws, the debate. such campaigns are often not successful. 301WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 302WH

[Greg Mulholland] putting halts in the planning process. My hon. Friend is right. There is only one way in which we can determine The Government have said that they will take action whether a community wants a pub and that is to ask the on restrictive covenants, which I warmly welcome. I people who live in that community. Very few councils am sure that the Minister will say a little more about do that. As I will discuss later, the issue of viability is the Government’s proposals, but I understand that a very often not established, or it is simply established consultation will be held this year. I hope—I have no because the current owner claims that the pub is unviable. doubt—that it will lead to the abolition of this extraordinary The Minister may say that pub campaigners can practice, whereby the owner of a pub, whether it is a sometimes be a little over-sentimental. As a member of brewery or pub company, can slap on a covenant that the save the pub group, I refute that charge. Why do we says that it must never be a pub again, with the community not say more about pubs also being small businesses having no say on the matter. It is absurd. It is anti- that actually make an incredibly valuable contribution competitive and anti-community, and it must be outlawed. to the national economy, which is, of course, eroded I bring to the Minister’s attention one of the other every time a pub closes? The tax-take from those pubs is many tricks used. I call it the restrictive covenant by the also eroded every time one closes. Pubs are small businesses, back door. My hon. Friend the Member for York Outer with an individual, a couple or a family earning a living (Julian Sturdy) was lucky in his campaign, but we often and employing people in the local economy. The new see pub companies or individuals deliberately choosing economics foundation has suggested that twice as much to sell the pub for non-pub use even though they have as every pound spent in a pub goes directly to the local received viable market-value offers from those who wish economy, compared with half of that for every pound to continue running the pub and serving the community. spent in a supermarket. Often, as we have said before, There is nothing to stop that, but the effect is the same. supermarkets are replacing pubs. The community loses its pub even when someone wants to buy it. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. He hits on a We have some wonderful small breweries, and some very good point there. My local pub, The Coach and fabulous small pub companies are popping up, with real Horses, in Honley village has just reopened having been entrepreneurs taking on pubs throughout the country closed for three months. My hon. Friend was right to in small numbers. It would be a far greater number if talk about the employment opportunities. The pub the larger companies were not able to ignore offers from employs bar staff, the manager, the entertainment that the community or other pub companies. That problem it is bringing in on Friday and Saturday night, the must be addressed. In Otley, in my constituency, there cleaning staff and the catering staff. Whenever we hear was a pub called The Woolpack, which had served the about a small supermarket moving into an area, people community for many years and had considerable historical always talk about the employment opportunities. We merit. It was sold for non-pub use even though there need to emphasise the employment opportunities that were companies that wanted to buy it and run it as a pubs can bring to rural villages and remote areas. I pub. The decision to end that pub’s service to the should like to congratulate my hon. Friend on making community was entirely taken in the boardroom of a that point. company, which must be wrong. Often, such decisions are made even when the company or individual who Greg Mulholland: I thank my hon. Friend and fellow wants to continue to run the pub puts in a higher bid. Yorkshire MP for making that point. It is easy for That is because an organisation deliberately wants to people in planning applications—I have seen it as I am shut that pub—in the same way as restrictive covenants—so sure have other hon. Members—to present the pub as as to lessen the competition for the other pubs that it something that is of the past and that is no longer may have in that area. wanted by communities. They deliberately ignore points such as employment opportunities. They suggest that a Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): My hon. business that has served a community for 50 years or Friend hits on a key point. Very often, profitable pubs even 100 years and contributed to the economy should run into such a situation. Does he not agree that there be replaced by a set of flats that will make a one-off are many pubs that are not economically viable, and, in profit for a business, or a supermarket that will do some cases, they probably need to shut. The real scandal, things in a different way. It is so important that we however, is the closure of pubs that are profitable and do not lose sight of that point. could have a long-term future. The key issue is that local Let me outline the framework for pubs in planning communities should have a say as to whether such law and why, sadly, pubs have so little protection. Planning buildings are razed to the ground. policy statement 4, which applies to villages and local centres—already it is rather ambiguous because there Greg Mulholland: I thank my hon. Friend and look are pubs that are in areas that do not qualify—replaced forward to continuing to work with him on this issue. I planning policy statement 7. That was a change made know that our hon. Friend the Minister is listening to by the previous Government in December 2009 and was us. Let me be clear that no one is suggesting that those a cause for concern. PPS 7 was stronger and made genuinely failed pubs—those pubs that cannot make a direct reference to supporting the retention of local living and no longer have a community that wants facilities such as public houses. The new policy simply them—should not change. No one is even suggesting refers to planning applications affecting shops and leisure that there should be significant barriers stopping their uses, including public houses or services in local centres. conversion or redevelopment. I want to make that absolutely The Government are thinking of replacing that planning clear to the Minister, and I hope to convince him that policy statement with a new framework. I urge the there are ways in which we can do that by, for example, Minister, who is a genuine supporter of pubs, to ensure 303WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 304WH that when that statement comes out it includes a direct said, “Well, it’s nothing to do with us, because we didn’t reference to the importance of public houses so that close the pub, but actually now we want to build houses councils can take that into account. Without such a on it.” reference, councils will not do that. Then a battle ensued. The community conducted a vigorous and well run campaign, and they managed to Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): My hon. Friend will fight off the first planning application. They obtained be aware that in a former life, I was on the planning figures to show that the pub was profitable and viable, panel of Leeds city council. That was exactly the problem and so the first application was kicked out. However that the panel faced with a pub in his constituency that Chartford Homes was cunning and, frankly, it had an was closed down. Does he not agree that to give councillors awful lot of money—£1 million more than was clearly that extra power, such a reference is exactly what is sensible—tied up in the pub. So it transferred the ownership, needed in legislation? or at least proposed at that stage that the pub be taken over by a company called Westwood Care, its sister Greg Mulholland: I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour company with shared directors. Westwood Care then for that point. I was coming on to that exact case. To came back with the wonderful, cuddly proposal to turn some extent he is right, but the unfortunate reality is this historic building into a care home. that councils can, as things stand, adopt pro-pub planning Sadly, that proposal went to the plans panel of Leeds policies. The scandal of that case is that Leeds city city council. What happened next fits exactly with what council did not even seem to realise that it could and my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) should have adopted such a policy. has talked about. The members of the plans panel in Leeds felt that they could not refuse that application in John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Is it not the case that planning law. I am afraid that the main reason was that under the sustainable communities legislation passed in Leeds city council has no policies in place that recognise the previous Parliament, there are opportunities and the importance of pubs, so it is Leeds city council’s fault levers that are currently not being used? that The Summercross closed. The actions of Leeds city council can be compared Greg Mulholland: That is the case, yes, but there is with those of Bradford city council. Just up the road another issue that relates to The Summercross pub in from Otley is Ben Rhydding, a suburb of Ilkley. Bradford my constituency. I had a phone call from a legal officer city council stood by the community there and was at Leeds city council who said to me, “What is this prepared to take on the owner of the Wheatley, the Sustainable Communities Act and what relevance does local pub—in that case, it was Punch Taverns. The it have to pubs?” Clearly, there is a large job to do in council won and the Wheatley is now a popular and communicating with councils. Some councils are good—I thriving pub again. But Leeds city council is frankly will mention them in a minute—but some do not appreciate clueless when it comes to the protection of pubs and what is already there at the moment that could make a planning policy, and it needs to address that failing. difference. Existing legislation does not go far enough, It was incredibly frustrating during the planning process but if the guidance were clearer, it could make a difference. to hear the chair of that plans panel whispering to Let me briefly relate the sad story of The Summercross officers, “Pub viability is not a planning consideration, pub, because it is a classic example of the problem here. is it? We can’t consider that.” The chair also said, “The The Summercross was one of my local pubs in Otley. It only planning protection policies that exist are to do had been a pub since 1871 and it was the only pub of with rural villages, aren’t they?” Both those statements that name in the UK, so it represented a little bit of are incorrect and both were made in what is supposed British history. It had gone through the usual story of to be a quasi-legal setting. changes of ownership and successive tenants. Every Pub campaigners and other members of the local time the pub did well, the rent went up. Rather ominously, community in Otley saw planning officers present the it was bought by a London-based developer, but the developers’ own proposal. It was a PowerPoint presentation tenant who came in did a very good job of turning from the developers. The word that local people used around the pub and making it successful and profitable when they saw that presentation was, “Corruption.” again. It attracted the customers back by serving excellent They said, “Surely this can’t be right? It’s corruption.” I local independent beer. However, a deal was struck over said, “No, it isn’t corruption. There is no corruption his head, initially without his and his wife’s knowledge, there.” However, it is the farcical reality of the planning to sell the pub to a Leeds-based developer for a very process, which means that a set of planning officers can large profit—something like £1 million for that one sale. present exactly what the developer wants to do and The London-based developer, Phase 7 Properties, had make some comments on it. And what does the community bought the pub as a predatory purchase, seeing it as a get? They get three minutes to make a few comments. I potential development opportunity because of the weakness am afraid that the decision to close The Summercross in planning law. Scandalously, the landlord and landlady ignored the reality that it was a profitable pub. The were give a few weeks to clear out of The Summercross, figures to that effect were presented. Instead, the members which was their home as well as a small business, a of the plans panel said, “There’s nothing we can do in community pub and a popular live music venue. planning law to stop that.” I am afraid that that sort of A campaign was launched to try to save The thing is happening up and down the country. Summercross. However, the London-based developers, I want to issue a challenge to my hon. Friend the who went off with £1 million in their pockets after Minister today. I appreciate that this is a difficult issue owning the pub for just two years, said, “Sorry guv, in planning law. However, we all agree that there is some nothing to do with us any more. You’ve got to speak to moral ownership of a local pub by the local community. Chartford Homes in Leeds.” Then Chartford Homes Surely, if we believe in everything that we say, there 305WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 306WH

[Greg Mulholland] clearer advice from the Government, including from the Minister’s Department, about what councils can and must be such moral ownership. As my hon. Friend the should do in terms of listing pubs and about the criteria Member for Selby and Ainsty has said, the community for listing pubs. Sometimes, even though something is must have a right to have a say over the future of its clearly worth preserving, it does not actually tick the local pub, especially when the pub is successful and, as right boxes. I hope that that is another conversation in the case of The Summercross, other companies are that my hon. Friend the Minister and I can have, knocking on the door and phoning me to say that they perhaps over a pint of Leeds Best in the Garden Gate or want to take on the pub but are unable to do so because one of the many other pubs featured in CAMRA’s of the grubby deals that have gone on between two national and regional guides. developers behind the backs of the landlord and the I have said that I would discuss the good councils as local community. well as the bad, and it is incredibly important that I do The London-based developers, Phase 7 Properties so. My hon. Friend the Minister rightly said that councils Ltd, owned The Summercross and allowed a tenant to have a key role. Neither I nor the other members of the run it for two years. I do not think that it ever visited the save the pub group are saying that the Government can pub themselves, which it had an agent to run. Does it or should solve all those problems. I also want to make have the complete right, as the legal owner of the it clear that we are not saying that the Government building, to do what it wants over the heads of the should impose everything. As is suggested in the private community that, as I have said, must have some moral Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member ownership? I say that it does not have that right. That for Selby and Ainsty, it is more a case of giving local situation must be recognised, in a realistic way, in the councillors the powers, so that they do not feel that they planning process. simply have to give the nod to plans that they know, in their heart of hearts, are wrong. Nigel Adams: Does my hon. Friend agree that such a There are some very progressive councils. At the small change in planning law would also put a very moment, 40% of councils make specific mention of large tick in the box for the Government’s localism retaining pubs in their local planning policies, which is agenda? impressive. In addition, 20% of councils do not specifically mention pubs but none the less have strong policies on Greg Mulholland: It will not surprise my hon. Friend protecting community facilities in general. However, to know that I will discuss the Localism Bill very 40% of councils are bad in terms of providing protection shortly. As my hon. Friend the Minister knows full well, for pubs. They have no policy whatsoever that would because I have written to him about it already and will assist communities to retain pubs. I am ashamed, and I continue to do so, that Bill is a huge opportunity and hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey is the save the pub group must also see it in that way. It is a also ashamed, that Leeds city council is indeed one of huge opportunity to address these issues that we and the 40% of councils that do not have policies to protect our local councillors face day by day. We find that our pubs. There are many examples around Leeds and the views, expressed as elected representatives and councillors, surrounding area of how the council has simply let are rejected. Otley town council objected to the closure things happen, and we have lost important community of The Summercross pub, but its objection was regarded facilities as a result. by the plans panel as not being remotely of interest. So Merton borough council has a very positive policy on the Localism Bill is an opportunity, and I will go on to pubs: say that it is a positive thing but it needs to do an awful “The Council will not permit the redevelopment or change of lot more. use of established public houses to other uses except where: There are other issues. One that I want to touch on (i) The applicant can show that the public house is no longer briefly is the issue of pub interiors. I was very lucky and economically viable privileged to have been asked to launch the new book (ii) The applicant can show that reasonable attempts have been by the Campaign for Real Ale, “Yorkshire’s Real Heritage made to market the site as a public house [and] Pubs”, at the stunning Garden Gate pub in Hunslet, (iii) There is alternative provision within the local area.” which is in Leeds. Frankly, that pub is only there because of the campaigns by Leeds CAMRA and other people, Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): The hon. Gentleman and because the wonderful Leeds Brewery has now has mentioned on many occasions the lack of “viability” taken the incredibly courageous decision to buy it and as being one of the criteria by which community pubs make it its fourth pub as it expands its portfolio. The are allowed to close. Does he agree that there is a whole Garden Gate pub is not in my constituency. It is in the raft of legislation that should be enabled to ensure that, constituency of the right hon. Member for Leeds Central first, “viability” is enhanced and, secondly, that we do (Hilary Benn). However, I am sure that the right hon. not hide behind “viability” as an excuse? For example, Gentleman and I would be delighted to take my hon. live music in pubs is known to increase takings by about Friend the Minister there at some stage, because it is a 40% on average, and I hope that my recent “Rock the stunning example of pub interior design that has been House” project goes some way to increasing awareness preserved. of that. However, does he agree that the Minister must consider the whole raft of licensing issues that go along The reality is that only 2% of pubs in Yorkshire and with planning issues, to ensure that the concept of the Humber region retain their original interiors. Those “viability” does not become something to hide behind? pub interiors are part of our heritage. We would not see our castles or our stately homes being vandalised and Greg Mulholland: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for demolished in that way. There has been some great his work with “Rock the House”, which the all-party work done by CAMRA and English Heritage, operating save the pub group formally backs. We look forward to together, on this issue. However, there needs to be working with him, and to getting as many MPs as 307WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 308WH possible behind that initiative. He is absolutely right What should be done? I want to continue, and I want that licensing is another issue and, as the Minister has the save the pub group to continue, to be part of an cross-departmental responsibilities, I know that he will ongoing dialogue with the Minister. We seek to help, as be having conversations with Ministers in all Departments we were invited to do by the previous pubs Minister, the that deal with pub-related issues. The licensing regime right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John has certainly become over-bureaucratic and too expensive, Healey). We were happy to meet with him and his civil and he and I strongly agree that some of the changes servants. Some of our proposals clearly need to be that were made a few years ago have been detrimental looked at, and they might not necessarily do what we to the encouragement of live music. The wonderful think they will, but we want to work through them and annual Otley folk festival, which largely takes place in be part of that conversation to get to the end result that Otley’s public houses, is a celebration not only of folk I think we all want, which is to give viable, profitable music but of the public house, and is a great example of pubs some protection in planning law. the harmony that is there. So, what should be done? The Government have to Returning to the councils, Oxfordshire and Mid Sussex commit to closing the loophole on demolition, and I councils have positive policies, but it would help if the have been encouraged by what the Minister has said. Government provided more guidance, perhaps on what There have been positive conversations during the passage the policies should say. At the end of my speech, I will of the Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill challenge the Minister by saying that I hope that that between him and my hon. Friend the Member for Selby can happen in the new national framework. and Ainsty, and also with me. I am encouraged that the Minister has suggested that he and the Government are Now it is time to talk about the Localism Bill, which I minded to stop the scandal of pubs being demolished, am sure we all support, and which sounds like the sort but I have to use a phrase that has been used with of thing for which many of us have been campaigning me—do not be a half-a-job Harry. I know that the for many years. It is the kind of thing that can, and Minister would not want to be one, but if the demolition surely must, be used to stop this scandal of profitable, loophole is closed and nothing is done about people successful pubs being closed against the wishes of the being able to continue to turn a pub into a Tesco, a local community. Will it, though? I know that the betting shop or a restaurant overnight without planning Minister will talk about the proposed community right- permission, only a small gap will be plugged and the to-buy scheme, and let me make it clear that the all-party other scandal will not be stopped. group warmly welcomes that proposal and looks forward to considering its details and to working, hopefully, with the Minister and his team to ensure that the Nigel Adams: Given that an estimated 39 pubs a week scheme works. Unfortunately, although the proposal is are closing, and that CAMRA estimates that about a positive, it will not have a substantial effect in preventing third of those are demolished, we have an urgent problem. closures of profitable and wanted pubs, first and simply I appreciate my hon. Friend’s support for my private because unless the Government finally get rid of the Member’s Bill, but does he agree that the best route for absurd loopholes, whereby a pub can be demolished or offering protection for pubs would be for the Government turned into a café, restaurant, betting shop, payday to adopt an element of that Bill in the Localism Bill? loan shop or supermarket without planning permission, a huge number of pubs will still be at the whim of the Greg Mulholland: I absolutely agree. That is essential companies making those decisions. I therefore urge if the right to buy is not to appear tokenistic. I stress, the Minister to close those gaps not only on demolition however, that the issue is not only about demolition, but on change of use, because otherwise there will not and I urge the Minister to stop it being okay to turn the be many pubs for communities to try to buy. Red Lion or the White Swan into a Tesco, just because a deal is cooked up between a distant unaccountable pub Secondly, I think that the Minister has to accept that company and Tesco headquarters. That cannot be right, what is in the Bill is not a community right to buy; it is a because the community, never mind the small business right to try. I ask the Minister, again, to consider the person, has no say over whether it wants the pub to model in Scotland, which contains a genuine right continue. to buy. Here, there is a right to put together a bid, to trigger a delay—a moratorium—but there is not even There is a separate use class order, A4, for pubs, bars genuine encouragement for the owners, let alone the and other licensed premises, but it is currently perfectly obligation that I would like to see. Without that, how allowable to change that to one of various other use many communities will realistically be able to raise class orders—A1, A2 or A3, I think—and the Government perhaps hundreds of thousands of pounds from share could, very simply, stop those conversions without planning options, fundraising or local businesses, if at the end of permission. I am not talking about when a pub is no that period—the length of which the Minister has not longer viable or wanted and it might be a good idea to yet specified; CAMRA has suggested a very sensible six turn it into a solicitors office. All the Government have months—the owner might say, “Well, actually, I’m going to do is to say that there are no conversions from A4 to to sell to Tesco anyway, for slightly more”? As we have anything without planning permission being obtained already said, the pub company might want to get rid of through the normal process. If the pub is no longer the pub, because of competition between its pubs in the viable or wanted, it will change use within a reasonable area. If the proposal is genuine, that issue has to be and normal time period, as with all planning applications, considered, because otherwise not many pubs will be but the community should at least have the right to saved and the closure of profitable pubs against the comment. community’s wishes will not be prevented, which is I briefly wish to mention the wonderful work of Pub surely something that the Minister and the Government is the Hub and the Plunkett Foundation. No one suggests want to prevent. that it is possible for the Government to provide huge 309WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 310WH

[Greg Mulholland] of a community pub and whether such a definition is possible. We would need a proper study to see whether amounts of money to back up the community right-to-buy we could separate community pubs, which clearly have scheme, but there has to be better and clearer Government a community function, from a lot of bars and nightclubs, advice about the realities of setting up a community which do not. It would be exciting if that was possible, co-operative and putting a bid together. because it could lead to a different rateable value. As I would be interested if the Minister told us what one of my colleagues said, community pubs sometimes, progress the asset transfer unit has made on coming up but often do not, get sufficient payback from their with a genuine package of guidance and support for community work and the community role that they communities that wish to do that. play. My big idea, which I have shared with the Minister, is a moratorium. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I am delighted and I have taken the Government’s idea for a moratorium to support that point. All too often, the community and extended it. It would be possible and desirable to pubs my hon. Friend is referring to are the last standing have a moratorium before any permanent change of use community facility in the local area. All too often when or demolition. Six months would be a reasonable period I am in an area, I will see the former post office, the and would allow us to see whether other companies or former dairy and the former school house. It is right to individuals wanted to buy the pub. It is a scandal that separate community pubs from the rest of the trade there are often companies knocking at the door that because they have an additional role to play in the want to take on the pub, but they are simply not market. allowed to do so. Greg Mulholland: I thank my hon. Friend. I hope As the save the pub group has consistently said since that he will help me, CAMRA and the Institute for its formation, two things should happen in this six-month Public Policy Research, which is looking at this issue, to period. First, there needs to be a genuine, independent see whether that would be possible. Such a step would community consultation, which must be carried out by make it easier in planning law to do some of the things the local authority, as the planning authority. Some that we want. I hope the Minister and his team will developers put surveys through people’s doors with seriously consider that point and that it will be part of leading questions—we are all politicians, so we know the dialogue we have. about leading questions—and the answers are presented as the community’s view. People are asked, “Do you Even without such a change, it is possible, as I said, to think Otley needs more care homes?” or “Do you think require any change of use from A4 or any demolition to old people should have a good quality of life?”, and involve a moratorium that includes the three things I when they say yes, the developer says, “There you go. mentioned: allowing the pub to continue where there is Everyone wants a care home instead of a pub.” There a genuine business and making sure, if not requiring, must be genuine consultation to establish the will of the that the genuine, independent market value be considered; local community and the need for the pub. holding community consultation; and carrying out a viability test. There should also be a proper, independent viability test of the pub. Some councils have the courage to carry Finally on the suggestions from me and the save the out such tests, although it is mainly rural councils at the pub group, let me return to pub listings. We still have a moment. In the case of The Summercross, the developers’ few wonderful pub interiors, and I am glad to say that agents prepared a huge glossy document and presented there are a number in London, which it is worth going it to the plans panel, saying that it proved that the pub to see. They are important to tourists, who will walk was not viable. How can someone prove that a pub is into a pub such as The Mitre and realise that such not viable when it was trading profitably in the years things are unique to this country. We should be proud before? That is absolutely absurd. There must be an of that. independent viability study, which should, again, be carried out by the local authority, as the planning Nigel Adams: I, too, received a copy of the wonderful authority. There is also the CAMRA viability study, so book on Yorkshire’s heritage pubs, but was my hon. a model exists, and I hope the Minister will consider Friend, like me, not a little surprised that there were not suggesting it in guidance to local authorities when they more entries from Tadcaster, given that it is the most put their policies in place. In that respect, I hope that prominent brewing town in the country, as all Members Leeds city council and others will finally get round to present will agree? I hope that he will raise that with his doing that, so that 40% of councils are no longer friends at CAMRA the next time he sees them. without policies on pubs. My moratorium could work in two ways. The Minister Greg Mulholland: All I can say is that they have strict and I have discussed this, and I realise that he has views criteria. As my hon. Friend well knows, anyone travelling about how the moratorium could work, but I want to up the A1(M) will come to a sign pointing to Tadcaster give him two other suggestions. The six-month moratorium one way and Otley the other. One is a famous pub town could be part of the forthcoming national planning and the other is a hugely famous Yorkshire brewing and policy strategy, which could suggest what should happen pub town. There are some synergies there, and it is in the case of conversions from A3. It could also be probably appropriate for me to visit Tadcaster to see covered in supplementary guidance to councils that are some of its pubs for myself. putting together supplementary planning policies. As the Minister will know, councils have the power to Another suggestion that I have already raised with compile local lists of historically important buildings. the Minister, and which I know would take some work, At the moment, however, that power is toothless because would be to look at whether we need a separate definition it affords no extra protection. Will the Minister find a 311WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 312WH way to ensure that buildings that are put on these local I have a few questions for the Minister and, because lists by the good councils that recognise the importance this is a dialogue, I do not ask him to reply now. of pubs such as The Whitelocks in Leeds can be protected in the planning process? It is great to have them listed, Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con) rose— but listing seems to achieve nothing in the planning process. Greg Mulholland: Before I put my questions I shall Those are the main recommendations that the save give way to the hon. Gentleman, who represents Burton, the pub group is making for now as part of the conversation another famous brewing town. we are having. We will have a lively debate about the right way forward, but there is one thing the Minister Andrew Griffiths: I thank the hon. Gentleman for and the Government must not fall into the trap of bringing this important debate to Westminster Hall, doing. I sit on the coalition Government Benches and I and for recognising the importance of Burton. As he support what the Government are trying to do. Like the says it is the home of beer and Britain’s No. 1 brewing Minister, I do not want more regulation, and I certainly town. He talks with some force—and I agree with what do not want more regulation on pubs in the licensing he says—about the need to protect our community system—in fact, I want to see less. However, it is quite pubs. Does he also recognise that many brewers and wrong to suggest that giving communities the right to pub companies are trying to reverse the decline of pubs have a say over their local pubs and the important local by opening new pubs every day of the week? Marstons services they provide is regulation, because it is not; it is in my constituency has just opened The Dapple Grey in simply about ensuring that there is a proper process to Uttoxeter, which is thriving. I was in there a few days enable communities to have a say. That will not prevent ago and it was heaving with people. We need to allow pubs from being converted to alternative and positive pubs to grow and flourish, and the hon. Gentleman’s uses when their days as a pub are numbered because of viability test is the most important element of that. the area they are in or the local population. I agree with the Minister that we want competition Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Gentleman. We and a free market. As everyone in the pub trade and work closely together, because the all-party save the pub associated trades knows, however, there is no free market, group works closely with the all-party beer group, of because of the huge distorting impact of the fact that which he is the vice-chairman, and we look forward to half the pubs in the country are owned by the largest continuing with that. He is right to say that viability is a pub companies, which tightly control prices and dictate key issue. He is right to say that some pubs are opening; rents. That is a separate issue, and the Government are but sometimes that is used as an excuse to close other looking at it. However, entrepreneurs—the up-and-coming pubs that owners or pub companies want to dispose of small brewers and small pub companies—are delivering because of their huge indebtedness, some of which they great pubs, but they are not getting access to the market need to claw back to please their shareholders and because of the planning system. If the Minister wants foreign creditors. genuine competition, as I do, he needs to make it much The issue that the hon. Gentleman raised is important, easier for not only communities but entrepreneurs to but there was a case in Otley where a brand new pub get their hands on pubs. At the moment the Government opened—a wonderful little free house called the Old are not saying that. Cock—because it was not possible for Lee and Linda, who run it, to get one of the pubs owned by the pub Of course, the Minister will hear from the pub companies, company. They had to set a pub up in what used to be a developers and supermarkets, who want carte blanche café, and now offer a wonderful range of independent to do what they want with the community’s pubs. They beers that they could not afford to buy through the pub will tell him, “You must not do this; it is not in the spirit company. That is why I say to the Minister that there is of the free market. It is anti-competitive. It is regulation.” no free market or way to do that. The tragedy is that It is not. The Government have a clear ideological The Woolpack, which I have already mentioned, is a choice. Do they really want to empower communities to mere 50 yards from the Old Cock. If the system worked, have a say over local pubs, or do they want to back the Lee and Linda would have bought it, and would be developers, the giant pub companies and the supermarkets, operating that free house from its wonderful historic to let them do whatever they like with their pubs? It is as building. Instead, it has closed and is being converted. stark as that. I know what I believe in as a localist, a The Old Cock is a brand new pub. All I am saying is decentraliser and a real fan of pubs, and I hope the that we need to assess viability and first ask communities Government will choose the right way. whether pubs are still wanted. That would answer all The matter is linked, of course, to that of the big the problems that we agree exist. society, which is a huge issue. There has been a lot of As to my questions to the Minister, I want to nail him coverage of the big society this week. People say it is a down—not today—on whether he agrees with, and concept no one can disagree with: we want more power whether he and the Government will commit to, the for communities, and local people doing things for principle that no profitable and wanted pub should be themselves. The issue has been about the costs and permanently closed against the wish of the community, whether it is affordable. However, much of the big without that community having any chance of a say on society can happen without the Government spending a its future. To me, that is the overriding fundamental penny, and what I am talking about presents one principle that we must get to as a localist and decentralising opportunity for that. If the Government make the Government—and, hopefully, a pro-pub Government. right, bold decisions they can stop the closure of profitable I also ask the Minister to provide an assurance today, if pubs happening against the wishes of communities. he can, that the Government are committed to extending That surely is the big society at a local level. planning control to cover the demolition of pubs, as he 313WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 314WH

[Greg Mulholland] profitable, wanted pubs being closed willy-nilly every week. I am delighted that the Minister, and the Prime has suggested he is minded to do. Will he also seriously Minister, have said that they want the Government to consider doing the obvious thing and making an A4 use be pro-pub. I shall judge the Government on several class order subject to planning permission for any change issues: the reform of the beer tie, dealing with irresponsible of use? That would make a big difference and stop pricing in supermarkets, licensing, regulation and a conversions to Tescos, betting shops, restaurants and host of other things. Above all, if the Government are cafés with no community right to consult. to be pro-pub and save pubs throughout the country, Will the Minister consider that the forthcoming national they must put the rhetoric into practice and say, “Yes; policy framework should include not only the idea that not only are pubs important but the planning system retaining pubs is important—it must do that, and I am will say they are and will reflect that.” They must make sure he will ensure that it does—but the idea of a sure that finally, communities will get a say when someone six-month moratorium? That could say, as guidance says that they want to close the local pub. rather than diktat, that there should be a six-month period to allow other people to buy the pub and allow 3.29 pm for the viability test and the independent community Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): It is a great consultation. Will he seriously consider strengthening pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. the right to buy, at the very least to prevent an owner I congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds North West unreasonably refusing a bid from a community? Indeed, (Greg Mulholland) on securing this debate on an issue in my opinion that should also cover a bid from a small that is important and unites the House. I will start with brewery such as Wharfebank brewery in my constituency, a confession that I hope hon. Members will not hold which has just taken on its first pub. Perhaps the Minister against me: I am a teetotaller and rarely frequent local will consider that and work with us to try to strengthen pubs. However, I recognise their importance and the it and make it meaningful, so that communities feel it is central place that they occupy in many communities worth putting bids together. around our country. It is a matter of great concern that we have lost so many pubs in recent times and continue Justin Tomlinson: When new schools are built, local to lose them at an alarming rate. Between 25 and 40 authorities must put competition arrangements in place pubs around the country close every week, which is a to allow different organisations to bid. Those that bid source of great concern. are given huge amounts of advice and support, to turn The hon. Gentleman discussed the need for an ongoing enthusiasm into a practical and credible bid. I should be conversation about the issue. It is clearly important to interested to see what support could be offered to those return to that as the new Government develop their in the community who want to defend the community policy on this and a range of other matters. I thank him pub, to turn their enthusiasm towards finding the for his work on the issue. Hopefully, his questions to the considerable amounts of money and huge commitment Minister and the ongoing campaign with which he is that can be needed to make that a realistic dream. involved will have some impact on the Government and enable them to make policies that address the concerns Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Before I ask Mr that he outlined. Mulholland to respond to that intervention, I remind I share the hon. Gentleman’s concerns and was appalled the House that we should begin the winding-up speeches by the scandalous examples that he gave of the sharp at about 3.30. Perhaps I may ask that the hon. Gentleman practice in which certain unscrupulous, well-heeled business draw his remarks to a close. If no other hon. Member people indulge, leading to the closure of all too many of wants to speak—and no one has indicated a wish to do our community pubs. He is right to say that a local pub so—I want to call the shadow Minister at 3.30. is a small business that generates employment opportunities, particularly in the more remote communities in our Greg Mulholland: I am, Mrs Main, on my last question, country. Pubs are a valuable source of local employment. as the Minister will be relieved to hear. I shall send him I hope that hon. Members will forgive me for making a copy of my questions, to be helpful. a political point. I am concerned about the implications My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon of the massive cuts that the coalition Government have (Justin Tomlinson) must be a mind-reader, because my agreed to implement. In particular, the cuts of up to very last question to the Minister was to be on exactly 30% that local authorities face over the next four years, the point he raised. Does the Minister accept that the and cuts in other public services, will lead to the loss of Government’s asset transfer unit needs to examine, and almost 500,000 jobs in the public sector. According to considerably expand, the support it offers to communities research by PricewaterhouseCoopers, at least a further on the possibility of community buy-outs? That is 500,000 in the private sector will lose their jobs as well. essential, and if the Localism Bill is to bring about Hon. Members are looking at me; they may be wondering decentralisation, localism and the big society, it must what on earth that has to do with this debate. [HON. happen. It would not cost a huge amount of money—which MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] I will enlighten them: it has we cannot provide—but it can empower communities. absolutely everything to do with it. If people do not I appreciate your indulgence, Mrs Main, and that of have money in their pockets, the hospitality trade will the House. The subject is complicated and it needs to be inevitably suffer as a direct consequence. Not only the considered as a whole. As I hope I have explained, there hospitality trade but the leisure trade and many other is often scant real protection—and there are many service industries will be detrimentally affected by the loopholes in it—for the great British pub that we all, cuts supported by Government Members in the Chamber including the Minister, purport to support and value. during debates on the comprehensive spending review That must be changed. We must stop the scandal of and other spending matters. 315WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 316WH

Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Does the hon. apologise for missing the beginning of this debate; Gentleman agree that planning law should be strengthened? unfortunately, I was in a Bill Committee, but I came as You just mentioned that it should be. soon as I could. The hon. Gentleman is making a point about people not having money in their pockets. Is it Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I have not not therefore even more important that we deal with mentioned anything about planning laws, but I hope below-cost selling of alcohol in supermarkets— that Chris Williamson will respond to that.

Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. That is not the Chris Williamson: I was merely referring to the hon. subject of this debate. We are on winding-up speeches Member for Leeds North West, who discussed the need now. I request the shadow Minister to continue with his to strengthen planning laws to give local authorities remarks, which I hope will also address the topic of the greater powers over the closure of community pubs. I debate. support him on that. The point that I was making is that strengthening planning powers for local authorities Chris Williamson: Thank you, Mrs Main. They will amounts to greater regulation, so in certain circumstances, and they are. It is central to the future viability of pubs stronger regulation can be a force for good. It can be around the country that we recognise the implications beneficial in helping promote the campaign that he is of other decisions taken by the Government and the pursuing. Members who vote for them. The community-owned pubs programme has been Hon. Members have referred to the community right scrapped. The Government had set aside £3.3 million—not to buy. On the face of it, I have no difficulty with a huge sum, but significant—which would have gone a it—indeed, I think that it is probably a good thing and long way towards assisting many community pubs to will be beneficial in certain circumstances—but when remain open. The chief executive of the Plunkett we scratch the surface, it is a little bit of a pig in a poke, Foundation, which was charged with administering the is it not? No funding is attached to it. How will a fund, said about the decision to scrap the programme: deprived community where many are unemployed, have “This is devastating news for each community that had hoped modest incomes from low-paid employment or are losing to save their local as a co-operative. The government has turned their jobs as a result of the cuts to which I referred be its back on communities that were looking to take more responsibility able to exercise the community right to buy if the over their everyday lives.” people there do not have the wherewithal to do so? It seems that the Government propose to replace a Before the election, the Conservative party gave a meaningful Government initiative, which would have commitment on the community right to buy that the provided resources for practical action to save a considerable community would be given the right of first refusal. As number of community pubs, with a mere information I understand it, that commitment has now been withdrawn. leaflet, which will be distributed to local communities. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments That is no substitute for a properly funded initiative on that point. that would have gone a long way in saving community The hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen pubs. That was a mistake, and I would be interested to Bradley) made a point about supermarkets. I take the hear the Minister’s comments on it. He is quoted as Chair’s guidance that it was not directly related to the saying: topic, but it is important to acknowledge that competition “″Pubs don’t want state handouts. The new government is to from supermarkets is having a detrimental impact on give local communities new powers to save local pubs.” the viability of community pubs. Again, the Government However, as I have already pointed out, the Government’s have failed to take decisive action to tackle the minimum proposed power will be meaningful only in those price. They should have gone somewhat further to communities that are relatively well heeled and that address it. therefore have the wherewithal to provide the resources The hon. Gentleman discussed the need to strengthen necessary to exercise a community right to buy. planning legislation. I agree absolutely, but he slightly contradicted himself in the latter part of his speech. In Nigel Adams: Is it not the case that the previous his conclusion, he said that more regulation was not Government had 13 years to do something positive required; I think he said, “We don’t want more regulation.” about protecting pubs? People had money in their pockets He will correct me if I am wrong, but he said that then, but the previous Administration failed to do stronger planning powers are needed. I agree with him, anything. but what is that if not greater regulation? I accept that regulation can be a force for good in certain circumstances, Chris Williamson: I do not understand the hon. but over-regulation of the sector can be problematic Gentleman’s intervention. I have already made the point and a barrier, as can set-up costs, and those issues need that the previous Labour Government set up the to be addressed. I support his aims, but there is perhaps community-owned pubs support programme, which his a weakness in his argument. He might consider that, Government have scrapped. We did take positive action. because I know that he feels strongly about the issue I accept that too many pubs closed and that perhaps and has done a lot of good work to lead the charge more could have been done. We can always do more, but on it. we took appropriate steps and ensured that people in I am also interested to hear the Minister’s comments the public sector were in employment and that we kept about the regrettable decision to scrap the Labour unemployment lower than it would otherwise have been. Government’s proposed community-owned pubs support As I have already said, unless people have unnecessary programme, which would have provided resources to money in their pockets, the hospitality trade and community enable communities to save community pubs from closure. pubs will suffer as a direct consequence. 317WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 318WH

Nigel Adams: Will the hon. Gentleman enlighten community pubs, and on the excellent work that he Government Members on when that much-vaunted rightly does as part of the all-party save the pub group. policy was announced? I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) and the all-party beer group. Chris Williamson: The hon. Gentleman is trying to All such groups and bodies are important players in the make a cheap point, because he knows very well that it conversation that, as my hon. Friend the Member for was towards the latter end of the previous Government. Leeds North West has said, we are having, and I promise [Interruption.] him that we will continue to have it. It is an important issue. I appreciated the seriousness with which a number Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Will hon. of my hon. Friends intervened to raise examples to Members please not make remarks from a sedentary reinforce a number of my hon. Friend’s legitimate points. position? I would like to hear what Chris Williamson I will say this as gently as I can, but the shadow has to say. Minister, the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson), may not have quite caught the mood of Chris Williamson: Thank you, Mrs Main. The reality the debate to a nicety. It was not a partisan debate. If is that we took action. On another point, we took the people want to play it along partisan lines, I can point necessary steps to stop the economy going into a complete out that, in 13 years of the previous Government, the tailspin. I repeat the point that I have already made and situation developed, got worse and not much was done—an make no apologies for doing so: people need income in initiative 12 weeks before the general election was scant their pockets from employment, and the measures that and shoddy recompense. we took to keep unemployment lower than it would otherwise have been helped ensure that more pubs did The hon. Gentleman did, however, remind me of a not close. I regret to say that this Government’s measures story about John Costello, the former Irish Prime Minister. have taken away the direct support by scrapping the He had lost a general election and was driving with his community-owned pubs support programme. They are Attorney-General to the presidential palace to hand in also introducing new powers that only relatively affluent his resignation. Their car had to stop at a crossroad, on communities will be able to utilise, and are taking to which a fight spilled out from a public house. Costello economic decisions that will have a much bigger impact turned to his Attorney-General and said, “Do you on the future viability of community pubs, because know, I’ve never been in a pub in my life,” to which the unemployment will certainly increase and many more Attorney-General replied, “Well, if you had, we might pubs will close as a direct consequence. not be going to hand in our resignations now.” I do not want to take up much more time, because I do not have to confess—I think it is well known—that that would eat into the time for the Minister’s wind-up I occasionally use a public house. I have certainly assisted speech. my hon. Friend the Member for Burton in adding to the heaving numbers in a public house in Uttoxeter. I am Jason McCartney: I would be interested if the hon. conscious, from my own constituency as well as from Gentleman could name a single pub in Yorkshire that my visits around the country since my appointment, was saved by that scheme. Dozens of pubs closed in my that public houses are a key part of the community. We constituency during his Government’s last five years. have vibrant pubs in villages, in suburban areas such as mine, and in inner-city areas, some of which I see when Chris Williamson: I hope that the hon. Gentleman wearing my hat as the Minister with responsibility for will forgive me for not knowing the names of pubs in the Thames Gateway. Yorkshire. I am a Derby MP and, as I said at the outset Of course, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds of my contribution, I am teetotal and very rarely frequent North West has rightly said, changing circumstances pubs. Pub names are not one of my strong points. mean that, because pubs are businesses as well as I could not even name too many pubs in Derby, but I community assets, they will sometimes come under recognise the central role that they play in the local pressure and some will not be sustainable. I have mentioned community. the east end of London. I visited some old friends in I will finish by addressing the comments made about Poplar, where demand for pubs has declined due to the the big society. The notion that, somehow, the nebulous change in the demographic of its population, so not all concept of the big society will be the saviour of community its pubs are likely to survive. It is important to recognise—I pubs and that Ministers on the white charger of the big am grateful that my hon. Friend did—that we have to society will ride to the rescue is, in reality, a fantasy. In bring that balance into the equation. Equally, I think we my view, the big society is nothing more than a 21st-century have all come across the sort of cynical behaviour version of the Poor Law. If hon. Members view that as whereby viable public houses are sold, sometimes over the way to protect community pubs, I am sorry but they the heads of the tenants, the landlords or the community. will be sadly disappointed. My hon. Friend has quoted a number of examples and, during a Localism Bill Committee sitting, I referred to one in my own constituency. The absentee landlord of 3.45 pm The Broomwood pub, in Sevenoaks Way in Orpington, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for has deliberately run it down so that its value as an asset Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): It is is diminished, in order then to seek planning permission an absolute delight and pleasure to serve under you, to turn it into a McDonald’s. I am no more likely to Mrs Main. I also warmly welcome this debate and frequent a McDonald’s than the shadow Minister is to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds frequent a pub. It would certainly not have been a good North West (Greg Mulholland) on securing it, on the result for that community, and I think there is common constructive way in which he made the case for assisting ground between us on that point. 319WH Pubs (Planning Policy)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Pubs (Planning Policy) 320WH

Justin Tomlinson: That can also be the case before a to the consultation. That will also include planning for pub has even been built. In new developments—a lot of community and other leisure facilities. The linkage about my constituency is new development—space is allocated encouraging live music, for example, that my hon. Friend in the master plan for a community pub. The developers the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) referred to, is deliberately do not sell it—as is the case with our local absolutely right. That is why, separately, the Government brewery, Arkell’s—and they then try to come back and are proposing to reform the licensing law to make it say that the only demand is for additional housing. easier for live entertainment to take place without some of the bureaucratic licensing requirements, particularly Robert Neill: My hon. Friend is right. I shall refer to in smaller venues. I hope that that will add to viability, some of the planning proposals we are seeking to make, which is an important consideration here. which I hope will deal with some of those situations. Two matters are important in relation to the Localism The Government are seeking to approach the matter Bill. First, we are introducing neighbourhood planning, against the background of recognising that there must which will give neighbourhood communities a greater be a sensible balance and that, of course, it is sometimes chance to shape their area in planning terms. Communities legitimate to regulate to protect community interests. will be able to set policies for the development of their However, we are also dealing with businesses that need area, subject to the constraint that what they say must to be kept viable and remain attractive for investment, be in general conformity with the overall strategic policies so as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West of the local authority’s development plan, and that it said, it is important that we deal with the matter in will be subject to the national policy set out in the reasonable and proportionate way that does not build NPPF I referred to. Within those constraints, communities in inflexibilities that might discourage people from investing will be able to say what sort of developments—within in the public house trades. We must get the balance reason—are acceptable or not acceptable and where. right and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his That is an important tool, and I hope it will enable contribution to helping us do that. I would rather deal people to have greater protection. with the matter in a considered way than engage in Such an approach will also give communities greater grandstanding, because there are opportunities that will flexibility in expanding. Sometimes that is right because, come to us. for example, there might be a demand for additional Let me consider some of the points that were raised. housing in a village area. Incremental growth is not easy It is worth saying that the current national policy—planning to achieve under the current planning system, so there is policy statement 4—is perhaps not used as fully as it a greater pressure to convert the use of a public house could be. I accept that point, and outside this Chamber to housing. Our proposals will make it easier for a I will happily take up with my hon. Friend ways in neighbourhood to expand organically and therefore, I which we can ensure that local authorities are made hope, to still keep the public house in existence. aware of their existing scope. For example, PPS4—planning for sustainable economic growth—asks local authorities Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Will the Minister proactively to plan and promote competitive town centre give way? environments to support shop services and other things that have small-scale economic uses. That can be taken Robert Neill: Yes, of course. I think I know what the to include public houses. My hon. Friend indicated that right hon. Gentleman is going to ask about, although I some local authorities are doing that, and I applaud have to say that he has not been present during the them for doing so. Some of the public houses we have debate. referred to might be in conservation areas or might have a particular merit, such as listing and so on. There are Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I was just about to say other forms of protection. that the Minister is winding up. This is an hour-and-a-half When determining applications affecting premises debate and the right hon. Gentleman has not been here such as pubs, current policy also enables local planning for the entire debate. However, the Minister has given authorities to take into account the importance of the way. facility to the local community or the economic base in the area. However, I acknowledge that that is not doing Robert Neill: I have given way, but I hope that the enough to slow down the attrition rate of pubs. Therefore, right hon. Gentleman will be brief. we are determined to simplify the system. My hon. Friend is right: the national planning policy framework Mr Lammy: The Minister is aware that I have been is the appropriate vehicle for doing that. Since the Town concerned about these issues for some time. Will he say and Country Planning Act 1947, most planning policy a little bit more about the legal status of the neighbourhood has been dictated by guidance rather than through plan? He will be aware that The Oakdale Arms on primary legislation, which has tended to be enabling. Hermitage road, Tottenham is facing decimation in That is the route we intend to adopt. March, and there is real concern that the local community We are committed to taking the existing protections has not been involved. that it is appropriate to continue with, simplifying them, amplifying them where appropriate and publishing a Robert Neill: We have already set out the proposals comprehensive, single, streamlined national planning we are intending to make, and there should be a policy framework. We are aiming to do that by April referendum—an independent check—to make sure that 2012. We will start to consult on that later this year, and the neighbourhood plan, once it is in place, is in conformity I very much hope that my hon. Friends and the with other policies and that there is support from the organisations in their constituencies concerned about community. The details are available in a guide to the issue of planning and public houses will contribute neighbourhood planning, which is on the Department’s 321WH Pubs (Planning Policy) 16 FEBRUARY 2011 322WH

[Robert Neill] Renewable Energy (The Humber) website. When the right hon. Gentleman has looked at that, perhaps other hon. Members who are interested in 4pm the matter will have the chance to look at it. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): It is a pleasure As well as neighbourhood planning, there is the to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. community right to buy. That gives a fair chance for I would like to begin by thanking the Minister, who communities to bid to take over assets and facilities that has already provided a huge amount of support to the are important to them. Community right to buy is Humber MPs in our campaign to make the Humber a triggered by assets being listed, so it is an important renewable energy centre. He is already aware of much of power for community groups to take the initiative to list what I will say today and we are grateful for the support them. I do not pooh-pooh the community right to buy, that he has given. There are a couple of issues on which as the hon. Member for Derby North did. Potentially, it we would like to pin the Minister down, in the best is a powerful tool, and there are good examples where it sense of the phrase, as we try to move our campaign has already been taken on. We have published a consultation forward. document setting out details of how that scheme works. It will be underpinned by regulations to deal with the The campaign has support across the Humber and I process. That consultation ends on 3 May and as I said, assure you, Mrs Main, that the absence of other Humber I hope that hon. Members and interested groups will MPs is not due to lack of interest. My neighbour, the contribute to it. Some of the details that my hon. hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), is at a Select Friend the Member for Leeds North West fleshed out Committee hearing outside of Westminster today. My are exactly the sort of issues I promise him we want to hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness take on board during the consultation. (Mr Stuart) is away on parliamentary business, as is, I believe, the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin I understand my hon. Friend’s point about the Mitchell). However, this is a campaign that enjoys strong moratorium, and I would like to consider the matter in support across the banks of the Humber in north that context. The only query is whether too rigid a Lincolnshire and east Yorkshire. We are concerned primarily moratorium could itself create injustice in certain with doing what we can, as local MPs, with the support circumstances—for example, where the legitimate collapse of our local councils and businesses, to ensure that we of a business through commercial misfortune, as sometimes become a centre for offshore wind, and potentially a happens, triggers the need to realise assets quickly. It is centre for wave and tidal power and other renewable about getting the balance right. I would not want to energy opportunities, such as bioethanol. With your discourage people from investing in pubs, which might permission, Mrs Main—I have had contact with the happen if they thought they could not always get their Minister on this—my hon. Friend the Member for assets out again. However, there is more work that we Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) will speak for five minutes can and will do on that. of my time. On change of use, as was said, when used properly, there is already an ability to import viability into the Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair) indicated assent. test. Local authorities can remove committed development rights under the existing use classes order through what Andrew Percy: Thank you, Mrs Main. I will focus is called an article 4 direction. However, as part of our most of my comments on wave and tidal technologies reform of planning policy, we intend to consult more and the bioethanol industry. generally on reform of the use classes order. Again, I think that we all agree, across the House, that we there is an opportunity for that conversation to continue. want to ensure that the UK plays its part in the renewable Similarly, as my hon. Friend says, we have announced a energy sector and that we are not left behind as we have review into the use of covenants, which can be used to been in the past, particularly with onshore wind. Our prevent a fair playing field for communities when public campaign on renewable energy, as broad as it is, does houses are sold on. not extend quite as far as onshore wind. The Minister is On the question of demolition, I pay tribute to my aware of our particular issues with onshore wind locally, hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel but I just place them on the record again. As a country, Adams) for his private Member’s Bill. In the past, however, we have missed the boat on manufacturing for demolition has been excluded, but we are prepared to onshore wind and we do not want to fall behind with look carefully with my hon. Friend and other hon. the new technologies. Members at whether there is some means by which we Why the Humber? Well, apart from the fact that can, perhaps in the context of the community right to everybody knows it is the best area in the UK in which buy, extend planning control to the demolition of to invest, has the best people and is potentially represented community assets. That might be a means by which we by some of the best people—I exclude myself from that; can achieve a proportionate solution. I hope the door is I talk of course of my neighbours—in the past 10 years open to my hon. Friend in that regard. the area has not made the progress it should have done, I am sorry that there is no time for me to say more. and as other parts of the country have. We lost private However, I hope I have shown that we take the comments sector jobs in the past 10 years at a time when the of my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West in economy was growing, and we remain one of the poorest the spirit in which they were intended. I congratulate parts of the UK. We have, however, a great deal going him on what he has done. We will continue to have a for us too: deep sea ports, plenty of land for development, conversation on those specific points. an excellent motorway infrastructure that is not congested in the way that it is in other parts of the country, and a long history of manufacturing and manufacturing skills 323WH Renewable Energy (The Humber)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Renewable Energy (The Humber) 324WH on which to build. As I mentioned, we also have strong 1.2 MW,which will be installed by 2013. There the good support for this campaign from across the local area, news tails off a little. It is likely that the commercial including from some of our key stakeholders, MPs and scale machine will go to Scotland, because the renewable councillors, but also from local newspapers. The Scunthorpe obligation certificate scheme is more generous there. In Telegraph, the Grimsby Telegraph and the Hull Daily fact, Bob Smith the CEO of Pulse Tidal, tells me: Mail have been running their own campaign to support “The single biggest funding issue for us today is the market bringing more renewable energy projects to our area. pull—at present there is nothing to incentivise investors to support a tidal power project in favour of a wind power project—they Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I congratulate both receive 2 ROCs. Given that tidal is early in its development, my hon. Friend on securing the debate. On the matter of comparable to wind about 15yr ago, it is more expensive than wind, and higher risk. Hence no investor would put money into support, he also has plenty of support from Yorkshire tidal projects. With 5 ROCs in place for tidal, there is sufficient MPs, myself included. Offshore wind is important for incentive to bring investors to the sector.” my inland constituency, so that we do not have to have onshore wind farms dotted all over the beautiful countryside I know that there is a review of that scheme, but will it of the Colne and Holme valleys. It is also important consider the current disparity between England and because David Brown Engineering in Lockwood, Scotland? The scheme is currently in favour of Scotland Huddersfield, has a major contract to make the gears and we are at a disadvantage, so will the review recognise for offshore wind turbines. Hopefully the Humber will that? also play an important part in cutting our carbon I hope the Minister will consider the need for extra footprint, as part of the array of carbon capture and support for these emerging technologies, so that we storage that may go into the North sea, and bring jobs. remain at the forefront. We have had all that R and D. My hon. Friend has plenty of support not just in the We have successful projects up and running, but we risk Humber region, but across the whole of Yorkshire and losing them overseas and missing out, just as we did the north of the country. Thank you for this debate. with onshore wind technology. What are the Department’s plans for the longer-term Andrew Percy: I thank my hon. Friend for that glowing capital support for this sector? The marine development pledge of support for the Humber, and that demonstrates fund is being phased out. Will that be replaced and a point I will go on to talk about. The supply chain for what will be put in its place? There is a need for capital this industry will not be limited to the Humber—it will and revenue support to ensure that we do not miss out. I benefit UK plc. There will be jobs through the development am sure that we will get that, because I know the of the renewable sector across the whole of the UK in Government are certainly committed, but we seek a manufacturing. I know that he will be at the forefront of clear commitment from the Government on the future campaigning for those jobs to go to his constituency of of wave and tide. Colne Valley. What we seek from the Minister is continued support Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): On the point about in selling the Humber—I know he has responsibilities losing industries overseas, does my hon. Friend agree for the whole of England—and England, internationally. that, given our heritage of petrochemical skills and a We would also welcome support from the Government highly efficient agricultural base, it makes sense to have in terms of the pressure they can apply to ensure that a bioethanol base here in the UK? once agreements have been made, as they have been with Siemens, there are no glitches in the system. I also seek clarity about the framework in which we are operating. Andrew Percy: I will be coming on to talk about that I will turn to that point first, in relation to wave and exact point. As with the wave and tidal technologies, tidal technologies. where we have the skills base and the R and D, the same applies to bioethanol. I seek those commitments in In terms of R and D, the UK is at the forefront of relation to wave and tidal. My hon. Friend’s intervention these technologies and there are huge opportunities, not moves me beautifully on to bioethanol. only because we are an island, but because of the skills we have. There are massive opportunities along the The question, of course, is why bioethanol and why Humber, which is served by several other tidal rivers the Humber? My hon. Friend made the comments that including the river Aire, which I live next to, the Ouse, I would have made about the petrochemical skills heritage the Trent, and what we call the Dutch river, but which is in this country, so I shall not repeat them. We also have the Don to everybody else. It is estimated that marine mandated targets for biofuels, so whatever people’s power has the potential to bring approximately 10,000 individual views about biofuels are, the reality is that if jobs to the UK by 2020. we do not produce them locally in the UK, and specifically There is a project on the Humber at the moment, the in the Humber, they will be produced elsewhere, and the Pulse Tidal project, which is one of those great British jobs will be elsewhere. entrepreneurial technologies. It started in someone’s As with wind—and, potentially, wave and tide, if we garage. After 10 years of working in someone’s garage, are not careful—the UK has been lagging behind. In that has now developed into a machine that is operating 2008, France had 15 operational plants, Germany had on the Humber, just off Immingham dock. It was nine and the UK had one large and one small plant. funded 50% by the Government and 50% by private There is huge potential: as with wave and tidal technologies, funds, and has been operating successfully since 2009. It the predictions for the industry are impressive. It could cost £2 million to build, but the beauty of the project is be worth as much as £3.25 billion to the UK by 2020, that it used Corus steel and is maintained by another and could employ some 14,500 people. There is huge local company, Humber Work Boats. The next step of potential, in the Humber in particular, for the reasons the development is a commercial scale machine, rated at that I have outlined in respect of infrastructure. 325WH Renewable Energy (The Humber)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Renewable Energy (The Humber) 326WH

[Andrew Percy] I have cut down as best I can. With that, and with your permission, Mrs Main, I would like to hand over Two plants are coming to the Humber: Vireol will be to my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes. running an industrial-scale wheat-based production plant in Grimsby from 2013, which should produce about 44 4.13 pm million gallons of bioethanol a year. I am told that that is the equivalent—my science was never very good— Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) on securing this timely debate. It has Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I congratulate my come at a time when north Lincolnshire, in particular, hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I add my stands ready to take full advantage of the opportunities support to his campaign for the Humber, especially as I for jobs and growth. Many local companies, some of am a big supporter of wave and tidal. He makes a key which were previously involved in similar activities such point about bioethanol: it will be a huge economic as supporting our offshore oil rigs, are well positioned driver for our region if we get it right. However, I add a to take full advantage of the development of offshore note of caution, and would like to know what he thinks turbines. New training opportunities are being developed about it. Commodity prices are growing rapidly at by local colleges, training providers and businesses, and present— there is massive public support following a particularly successful focus on the industry, which my hon. Friend mentioned, by local newspapers the Grimsby Telegraph Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Interventions and the Scunthorpe Telegraph. should be brief. The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole wants to hear the Minister’s response. My hon. Friend has articulated successfully the role that tidal and biofuels—

Julian Sturdy: The intervention is about commodity 4.14 pm prices and the impact on food security. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

Andrew Percy: It is an important point, and I will 4.29 pm come to it. It is one of the criticisms—a misunderstanding, On resuming— in my view—of what is actually happening. I shall first finish with the plants that are coming to the Humber. Martin Vickers: I was praising the Grimsby Telegraph The effects of Vireol’s production of bioethanol will be and the Scunthorpe Telegraph, which is always a wise the equivalent of taking 60,000 cars off the road, and thing to do, especially as their reporter is present. Vivergo will produce at a plant in Saltend. My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole has My hon. Friend knows that we have not only in the articulated the future impact of tidal, wave and biofuel Humber region but across North Yorkshire—on his energy, but I want to highlight the region’s potential for patch—some of the most productive agricultural land placing the Humber at the centre of the offshore wind in the country, so there is huge potential locally to sector, not only in the UK, but in Europe and globally. benefit from bioethanol production. The concern he The area is ideally located. The Immingham and raises is one that many people raise, which is that we are Grimsby dock complex is the largest in the UK, measured taking land that could be used to produce food to feed by tonnage. Since the decline of the fishing industry, our cars instead. However, the process that will be used Grimsby dock has been seeking a new role, and offshore at the Vireol plant will produce as a by-product a wind could be the vital opportunity. Only a few miles high-quality animal feed, and there is a difference between away, Scunthorpe has steel production, and everything biodiesel and bioethanol. possible must be done to ensure that the various contracts The global annual production of the big four oil filter down to small businesses, many of which have seeds that are used for biodiesel is about 120 million been struggling in recent months. tonnes. To meet our 2020 target, 24 million tonnes The region has several examples of where short-term would have to be used for biodiesel. For bioethanol, it is investment could result in long-term growth and 1.7 billion tonnes of the big three grains, of which only regeneration. For example, the regional growth fund is 60 million are needed to produce bioethanol. There is a currently reviewing proposals, made in association with prediction that the UK could increase its production North East Lincolnshire council, to modernise, improve volumes up to about 20 million tonnes. That could be and update port infrastructure, which would provide done while ensuring food security, and, as I said, the for the construction of tailor-made facilities for the wheat-based process that will be coming to the Humber offshore wind sector. Such improvements, requiring produces a high-quality animal feed by-product, so it is investment of £1.8 million, would lead to real improvements a win-win situation. We already export wheat for animal within a planned 12-month time frame and to several feed or bioethanol production overseas. potentially major contracts being finalised, possibly I have two quick questions for the Minister on resulting in the creation of hundreds of long-term, bioethanol—I am conscious of the time. What in particular sustainable jobs. Such contracts would directly affect will he do to continue to support this important sector, investment and job creation, arising from the emphasis which has the potential to bring many jobs to our and support given to the Humber region. region? And when, specifically, will the Government One of the most exciting developments is proposed renew the 2020 targets, which are for 10% of our fuel by Able UK on a 300 hectares site close to East Halton production, so that the bioethanol industry can continue and North Killingholme. It could make northern to secure investment? Lincolnshire the capital of the offshore wind industry 327WH Renewable Energy (The Humber)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Renewable Energy (The Humber) 328WH and provide the potential for thousands of jobs over the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) make a powerful next decade or so. Many of those jobs will come fairly duo, and they are eloquent and dedicated advocates for soon with construction projects, and when linked to this the interests of their constituencies. They have worked country’s commitments to increase dramatically our hard to create a broad coalition on both sides of the environmentally friendly energy supplies, green technology House and of the Humber, and to bring together the has the potential to create many new opportunities. interests of the local authority, the business community The production of renewable electricity in the UK and the political representation in the Greater Humber has been growing by 11% per year since 2000, and the area. That will ensure that we take maximum advantage offshore renewables industry has been gearing up for of the benefits that undoubtedly exist. Contributions growth. The Crown Estate has announced the successful from other hon. Friends concerning how such opportunities bidders for each of the nine round 3 offshore wind can benefit their constituencies have also been encouraging, zones within UK waters, and that will occupy the and we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member industry for at least the next 10 years. It has been for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney), and about the brought to my attention that there may be some delay interest in bioethanol from my hon. Friends the Members to round 3, but I hope the Minister will allay those for Hove (Mike Weatherley) and for York Outer (Julian concerns in his reply. Opportunities for growth opened Sturdy). up to the area with the supply chain for the Humber This is a timely debate because we are looking at the gateway site—the Able UK development—and also potential for a huge regeneration in parts of the country with the massive round 3 Hornsea site that is within 12 that have been badly affected by economic decline over miles of Hull. When finished, it could generate up to many years. One of the most exciting aspects of the 14% of the UK’s total energy needs. renewable sector is the potential that it brings for economic I urge the Minister to give a cast-iron guarantee that prosperity in areas that have suffered badly. We must northern Lincolnshire and the Humber will receive put this debate in the national context. The Government Government support equal to that for other areas. are committed to a major roll-out of renewables, because Private enterprise stands ready to invest, but it cannot we believe that it will help to secure our long-term do it alone. We welcome the opportunities offered by energy interests, help tackle climate change and meet port development grants, but the earlier we receive our renewable energy targets for 2020 and beyond. It confirmation that the A160 into Immingham docks will will also deliver many green jobs across the United be upgraded, the better. I appreciate that that is not Kingdom, revitalising our manufacturing sector. within the Minister’s brief, but it is yet another opportunity The 15% target for renewable energy by 2020 is for me to mention the issue. challenging, but we are sure it is achievable. We are on There is also the seemingly never-ending debate about track for the first interim target of 4% renewable energy Humber bridge tolls. The Treasury review into the tolls by 2011-12, and we have 25 GW in the renewable is a major step forward, and we look forward to its electricity pipeline. We should look at the resources conclusion later this year. If the labour market is to around us—we have heard about how such resources function freely in the renewables industry—and other play out for the Humber. Around these islands we have industries—and allow local workers to take all opportunities 40% of Europe’s wind and some of the highest tidal available, we must consign the debate on tolls to history. reaches in the world. We are already global leaders in the offshore wind sector, with 1.3 GW of installed Potential investors and current stakeholders remain capacity. concerned about long-term financial commitments and the speed at which planning applications are implemented. This debate takes place against the background of In a report on the potential of the UK’s renewables the Government’s commitment to localism, and we sector, the offshore valuation group stated the requirement expect communities that accept renewable energy for new financing structures that complement the developments to receive distinct and specific benefits. fundamental features of renewable energy infrastructure We have mentioned the localisation of business rates, and are able to support the scale and speed of industrial and we are looking at other ways in which communities growth. That is necessary to secure the UK as a centre can benefit from hosting facilities on behalf of the for the global renewables industry. wider national interest. So far, the Government have done a lot, which is My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes discussed greatly appreciated by local councils and other offshore wind. The Carbon Trust has estimated that the representatives from the industry. Nevertheless, we cannot offshore wind sector could create 70,000 jobs by 2020. do it alone. There is the possibility to create a great Last week, I was delighted to announce the grant of number of job opportunities in an area that has been in consent for the Humber gateway offshore wind farm, recession for too many years, and I urge the Minister to which will generate enough clean electricity for 150,000 do everything in his power to help the area. homes. We put in place the offshore wind developers forum specifically to identify barriers. We are determined to drive that process forward as fast as possible, identify 4.34 pm potential barriers to investment and do what we can to The Minister of State, Department of Energy and ensure that they are dealt with and do not become Climate Change (Charles Hendry): It is a privilege to insuperable. We still need an acceleration in deployment serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, particularly and technical advances to realise the potential of offshore on a subject that I know is dear to your heart. I wind. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and UK manufacturing activity will be key to realising Goole (Andrew Percy) on securing this debate and on the economic potential offered by offshore wind across returning to a theme that he has become accomplished the whole supply chain, and I am confident that the in discussing in this House. He and my hon. Friend the offshore wind sector will grow substantially in the coming 329WH Renewable Energy (The Humber)16 FEBRUARY 2011 Renewable Energy (The Humber) 330WH

[Charles Hendry] Member for Brigg and Goole set out in opening the debate, we are looking at the renewables obligation, and years. We are determined to avoid mistakes that we have this issue can be part of that process, although as he will seen in the past, where although our waters contain understand, it is my colleagues in the Department for some of the largest offshore wind farms in the world, Transport who lead on those issues. the jobs and contracts go to mainland Europe or the far We are also committed to harnessing the benefits that east. In taking forward the next stage of offshore wind a successful marine renewables sector can bring to the development, we must ensure that those jobs come to UK generally and, within that, to the Humber area. the United Kingdom. The schemes to which my hon. Friend referred show We are the world’s leading market, and any company some of the thinking that is going on. This is a fast-moving that is keen to invest in the offshore wind manufacturing sector. As he has said, the struggle is in getting things to chain should be looking at Britain. The contribution a commercial scale. What we have seen in looking at the made by Siemens, and its determination to build in the schemes that were in place already—the marine UK, and the interest we are seeing from Gamesa, GE, development fund and particularly the deployment fund—is Mitsubishi and other companies shows the extent to that the bar was set too high to be relevant to the stage which Britain will be a global leader in this technology. that the industry is currently at. We are looking at making larger turbines than have We have examined how we take the technology further been developed before. They need to be more reliable and faster. Its development is an explicit written element than those used for onshore wind, and to have deep in the coalition agreement, which is at the core of what foundations and undersea cabling. That means that we are trying to do in the Department of Energy and they will be harder to transport than some of the Climate Change. The benefits go well beyond providing turbines used for onshore wind, and there is a strong us with secure, clean electricity, because there is an case for that manufacturing to be done locally to market. opportunity to build a new manufacturing sector in the I support the work that has been done on both sides UK, which will create new jobs and grow economic of the Humber and, indeed, in other parts of the opportunities both at home and globally. country to showcase the benefits of this technology for That will happen only if we ensure that we capitalise potential investors. It is also interesting to see the work on the hard work that the sector is doing already and that well-established local companies are doing to give ensure that the right foundation is in place on which to themselves a new direction. For example, Cosalt, which build success. We have established a marine energy was originally known as the Great Grimsby Coal, Salt programme, and we now want to ensure that small, and Tanning Company when it was founded back in dynamic companies have every reason to stay in Britain 1873, now provides engineering, safety and inspection by putting in place a network of marine energy parks services to the wind energy sector. That typifies the around the UK. That will enable us to take forward the economic development thinking in the area. There is no technology and ensure that those emerging companies doubt that such activity should provide a major boost want to develop in the UK, rather than, as we have seen to the British economy, and there is every reason for us too often in the past, taking their technologies elsewhere to hope that the ports along the Humber will be able to in the world. develop from that. We have brought forward the banding review for Of course, this issue is not just about wind power. renewables obligation certificates by a full year, so that One of the most exciting aspects is how the renewables we can provide much greater certainty to investors. The sector brings together in specific locations a raft of difference between different parts of Britain—the difference different technologies and the contributions that they between ROCs support in England and in Scotland—will can make. Biomass is part of that. In 2009, biomass feature in that, although of course the level at which electricity provided 87% of total renewable generation support is set in Scotland is a matter for the Scottish in the Yorkshire and the Humber region. There is no Government and the same applies in Northern Ireland. doubt about the significance of the contribution that it We can offer a real opportunity to take forward these can make. technologies in this country. Our objective must be to My hon. Friends spoke about the importance of remove barriers, to encourage investment and to ensure bioethanol and the leadership that Britain ought to be that we identify where the challenges are, so that the looking to establish in this sector. Bioethanol offers one potential throughout this country can be achieved. This of the few options in the short term for tackling greenhouse has been a short but important debate. The Humber has gas emissions and for meeting our renewable energy a very important contribution to make to the renewable targets in the transport sector. We are considering the energy future of this country, and I again pay tribute to opportunities that can be provided through eligibility to the Members of Parliament who are representing the benefit from the renewable transport fuel obligation area for the determination and assiduity that they have and the renewables obligation. As my hon. Friend the brought to its cause. 331WH 16 FEBRUARY 2011 Financial Mutuals 332WH

Financial Mutuals Mr Thomas: I end up at the same point as the hon. Gentleman, although I took a different journey to get to that point. I will come back, if I may, to the excellent 4.44 pm work he has been doing in chairing the all-party inquiry Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I into financial mutuals. am grateful to Mr Speaker for offering me the opportunity An expert think-tank based in the university of Oxford to have this debate. At the outset, I need to declare that set out in September 2009 how and why Northern Rock I have a mortgage with Northern Rock. I am privileged could and should be remutualised, ensuring that its to be chair of the Co-operative party and one of the debt to the taxpayer was paid down, creating a stable party’s 28 Labour/Co-op MPs. It is in that spirit and financial services provider and constraining it from with their support, but from the Back Benches, that I making the previous mistakes, while helping to secure a have sought the debate. more competitive retail financial services market. Yesterday, as the Minister will recognise, was business The next step, which the hon. Member for Cardiff as usual for banking. Barclays bank was carrying on as North (Jonathan Evans) hinted at, would be a full if Ministers had never been worried about its bonuses feasibility study examining in detail the financial, governance or its profits. This is also the week for yet another and leadership issues in respect of a remutualisation. re-launch of the big society. It is a concept in crisis, Will the Minister encourage such a feasibility study to unloved by many of the Minister’s colleagues and viewed be undertaken, either as a Green Paper examining the with profound scepticism by many people in the charity issues in all their complexity or, if the Treasury wants to world. What better time, then, for the Minister to offer maintain some distance, requiring UK Financial up a vision—and, crucially, the action to back it up—of Instruments to do that instead? In short, will he now the big society that is not an excuse for an attack on actively investigate the feasibility of the case for public bodies and hard-working public servants, but remutualisation? that instead leads to real change in an area of the In 2003, PA Consulting Group—not a body that one corporate world, financial services, where the whole would naturally think of as being on the left—published country has wanted a change in culture and behaviour? an interesting analysis of the relationship between the Despite a coalition commitment to help mutuals, profits of commercial banks and the market share of thus far in financial services there has been little of mutuals. In short, as mutuals gain market share—in note. Mutuals and financial mutuals in particular are other words, as competition between the various private proof that there is another way—that, important as the banks and their mutual competitors increases—bank public and shareholder-led private sectors both are, profits from the retail banking market come down. there is a way to combine the best of both traditions, to Potentially, that gives the Minister a significant opportunity drive enterprise, to foster ambition and to cherish to deal with the criticism that, under a Tory-led Treasury, community throughout our country. Financial mutuals, it is business as usual for the banks; he can promote building societies, friendly societies and credit unions greater competition through the growing mutual sector. were not responsible for the global financial crisis. They The biggest advantage that mutuals can offer is their do not have a culture of large dividends or excessive long-term view. They are not faced with the short-term bonuses, and they have much more, surely, to offer, but need to secure profits. Indeed, Nationwide estimates astute Government regulation will be required to foster that the mutual pricing benefit that it enjoyed between and encourage the sector. 1997 and 2007 because it did not have to put shareholders Both my parties—the Co-operative party and our ahead of members totalled some £3.7 billion. New sister party, the Labour party—were right to call for the research, using the published accounts of six shareholder- remutualisation of Northern Rock at the last election, owned insurers, shows that more than £2.2 billion was and I urge the Minister now to set out clearly the paid to shareholders in dividends. That is the dividend Government’s position on that issue. The Banking (Special drag—the loss incurred by all who seek insurance as a Provisions) Act 2008 allows state-owned banks to be result of buying from a business owned by shareholders. converted into mutuals. That could be by sale, merger That helps to explain why mutuals, which do not suffer with an existing mutual or the creation of a new entity. that drag, typically pay higher investment returns, provide The long-term ownership solution for Northern Rock better standards of service and pay more claims. should take into account some key principles. Taxpayers Treasury and Financial Services Authority orthodoxy should not be out of pocket as a result of the change. appears to be that corporate form does not matter, but Hard-working families and small businesses should be that what counts is what those various corporate bodies protected. The institution that emerges should be secure do for their consumers. Such a view is simplistic and not and responsible and add to the financial stability of the sufficiently considered to warrant the hands-off approach UK economy. The new organisation should act in the to corporate diversity that often appears to characterise long-term interests of its customers. the approach of the FSA and the Treasury. Let me be Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): The hon. clear: I do not advocate a mutual-only way, but robust Gentleman knows that I share his interest in the promotion diversity is important in ensuring real competition and of mutuality. I am therefore a little disappointed by this giving consumers a real series of options in the market. being couched in Labour terms. Does he not think it New capital rules being introduced in the wake of the would be helpful if the proposition put to the Minister global financial crisis may give rise to insufficient care were that there should be a proper review and examination being given to protecting and increasing the remaining of the opportunity of mutuality in relation to Northern strength of the building society movement. The FSA’s Rock, rather than it being asserted to him that that is new interpretation of the rules on capital may, over a the only option? We should be examining it as fully as number of years, bring about the end of friendly societies. we examine any other option. Both sets of draft capital requirements could profoundly 333WH Financial Mutuals16 FEBRUARY 2011 Financial Mutuals 334WH

[Mr Thomas] to lock in a new requirement to champion corporate diversity and, crucially, new structures to ensure that we damage the competitiveness of financial mutuals, and have people of sufficient calibre and status in the regulatory they do not reflect the fundamental difference between landscape to deal with building societies and friendly financial mutuals that are run for members, and the societies. Will the Minister support a requirement to basic banks or private insurers, which are run for promote corporate diversity in financial services when shareholder gain. bringing forward the Bills to set out new arrangements The European capital requirements directive is designed for the City? What action is he taking to ensure that to enable financial services businesses better to absorb mutuals will be the responsibility of those high enough losses following the introduction of the new Basel standards. in the pecking order to make a difference when needed? I accept that that is an important part of the response I turn to credit unions. The Minister will recognise to the global financial crisis; it focuses on improving the that there is widespread concern about high interest quantity and quality of capital, particularly what is rates for consumer credit and the activities of illegal called core tier 1 capital. Over the last 20 years, building loan sharks. I hope he realises the opportunity that societies’ capital reserves have been supplemented by properly managed credit unions can provide in meeting permanent interest-bearing shares. However, they will the needs of those wanting relatively small sums of not meet more demanding definitions for core tier 1 money at affordable rates. Access to credit unions in the capital. UK has been growing. For example, I understand that I recognise that building societies need to have access Wales has a credit union in every part of the country. to new ways of securing capital that are permanent and That is not the case in England, although things have that fully absorb losses. At the moment, the rules are been slowly improving in recent years. being framed with only one type of corporate form in mind—the private bank. They do not recognise the fact Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ that mutuals are structured and function differently, Co-op): My hon. Friend may be aware that access to providing value to their customers over the medium and credit unions in Scotland has improved of late. I hope longer term. If building societies are forced to adopt he will join me in paying tribute to Hamilton credit plc-like capital, they will have to adopt plc-like behaviour. union, which is developing financial services for children Building societies are trusted, safe and responsible precisely and young people to help get them into the culture of because they are not part of what “St Vince” calls the saving, so that in future they will be more financially casino economy. Surely it would be a mistake to force responsible. upon them a new type of equity capital that would import excessive risk-taking. Mr Thomas: I welcome the progress that has been I realise that there has been movement in the discussions made in Scotland, and particularly the work of the between building societies and the Government on this Hamilton credit union outlined by my hon. Friend. matter, but I ask the Minister what progress has been What action will the Minister take to champion the made—and, just as important, what has he done personally further growth of credit unions across the UK? to move things forward with his European counterparts? Mutuals make a vital difference by generating more There has been less progress in discussions with friendly competition in financial services, and they help to create societies. The FSA, revisiting its own rule book, seems more value for the consumer, as opposed to the shareholder. hellbent on clinging to a piece of legal advice that has I look forward to the Minister’s response to my questions. not been shared with the industry and which is at odds with every legal opinion that the industry has received. 4.58 pm It seems to be based on a ministerial view from the mid-1990s that the then Minister publicly acknowledged The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark was not intended for mutuals. Why cannot the FSA Hoban): It is a pleasure, Mrs Main, to serve under your share its legal advice with the industry? If its motivation chairmanship for the first time. is that it does not want to damage friendly societies, why I congratulate the hon. Member for Harrow West cannot a joint solution be found? If a solution cannot (Mr Thomas) on securing this debate. He roots his be found, mutual insurers would have to pay out a support for financial mutuals in the co-operative movement, significant proportion of the capital held in their which he represents in the House. Many on the Government organisations; the consequence of that could be that Benches would see financial mutuals as a coming together they had little or no working capital and would have to of communities to meet the needs of their members, shut up shop or demutualise. which may be an early articulation of the big society. I am grateful that Hector Sants attended the inquiry We should not forget the role that mutuals play in of the all-party group on building societies and financial providing financial services. They hold about 20% of mutuals, but frankly I doubt whether he has yet grasped UK retail deposits, and provide financing for 17% of the seriousness of the situation that friendly societies outstanding UK mortgages—including mine. They employ face as a result of his organisation’s proposal. Even 70,000 people and half of the UK’s population are now, I hope he will agree to an urgent review of the members of mutuals. The one member, one vote ownership FSA’s legal advice and step up efforts to find a solution. model sets mutuals apart from their plc peers, as it If he does not, and if the Minister does not intervene, enables them to focus solely on the needs of their consumers will have less choice, plcs will take greater members. It is unsurprising that mutuals frequently profits and customers will face higher charges. I would rank highly in surveys of customer satisfaction. As we welcome the Minister’s response. know, many mutuals operate in areas of economic and The Minister is responsible for ushering in changes to social deprivation throughout the UK. They provide financial services regulations. They offer the opportunity services that would be seen as sub-scale for big banks, 335WH Financial Mutuals16 FEBRUARY 2011 Financial Mutuals 336WH including as the small loans offered by credit unions Capital is a key issue for mutual insurers, too, which whose customers might otherwise turn to doorstep is why the FSA is considering the use of with-profits lenders. funds. It will be publishing a consultation paper on that shortly. I do not want to pre-empt the proposals that The hon. Gentleman made an important point about have been made today, but having extolled the virtues of access to credit unions. When I read the transcript of a the mutual model, it is reasonable to expect that mutual recent debate on high-cost credit, I was struck by the with-profits policyholders should expect at least as fact that one of the challenges is to increase access to favourable an outcome, if not a better outcome, than credit unions as an alternative to doorstep lenders. In a proprietary with-profits policyholders. It is important moment, I shall discuss some of the measures that we that mutual insurers ensure that they treat their with-profits will take. It is the importance of mutuals and the choice policyholders fairly, too. and diversity that they provide that drives our commitment to see them thrive and prosper. Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): The hon. The causes of the financial crisis have been stated Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) alluded to the many times, and I do not intend to rehearse them here. previous ministerial statement. He knows that it was a None the less, it is important that we learn from the statement that I made, but it related to the position of crisis and take steps to ensure that the same mistakes stock-owned companies. It deliberately excluded the are not repeated in the future. The Government want to position of mutuals, because it was an assessment of create a financial services sector that works differently what policyholders’ reasonable expectations were and it and is driven by different values, which is why we are was based on previous experience. Those factors have committed to implementing measures that will foster been erased from the way in which the FSA has taken diversity in financial services, promote mutuals and the matter forward, so will my hon. Friend agree to create a more competitive banking industry. revisit that area? The Government have established an Independent Commission on Banking to make recommendations on Mr Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an important both structural and non-structural measures to change point and it is one that he and I discussed before this the banking system and promote stability and competition debate. His argument, which he has expressed publicly, for the benefit of both consumers and businesses. A is that his statement was not intended to be applied to strong sustainable mutual sector, which has the ethos of all forms of with-profits funds. The FSA is aware of working in the interests of members, can support that. that view. None the less, it is important that this issue is treated very carefully. I am well aware that for many We must be realistic and recognise that the financial mutual insurers, their capital comes from with-profits crisis and the subsequent economic climate have posed funds. Without that with-profits fund, they would not many challenges for mutuals. Those challenges include be able to function in the way in which they do now. It is greater competition for retail deposits, more intensive also fair to say that for a proprietary-owned business, supervision and tougher capital requirements. I do not the with-profits fund belongs to its policyholders. We apologise for the tougher regulatory environment that have seen a number of firms go through a reattribution we are now in. Adapting to this new world has been, process in recognition of the fact that those funds and remains, a key challenge for financial mutuals as belong to the members of that fund. There is a challenge well as for the whole financial services sector. The there that we need to address and we need to be very Government are keen to ensure that the legislative careful about the impact of decisions on the ecology of framework is in place to enable mutuals to fulfil their the mutual insurer sector. role. There are number of changes to which we are committed Mr Thomas: As I suggested in my remarks, the FSA’s to help create a more equal playing field in financial position appears to be based on a particular legal services. Let me turn now to the point about capital that opinion that it has secured. Will the Minister ask the the hon. Gentleman rightly raised. We are committed to FSA to revisit that legal opinion, bearing in mind that achieving high capital standards across the financial all the other legal opinions that the industry has received sector, including for mutuals. At the same time, it is are at odds with that opinion? Will he also specifically right that we have capital requirements that are appropriate ask the FSA to share that legal advice with the industry, for mutuals. The Government seek to address that issue as part of the process of trying to facilitate a solution? in negotiations on the capital requirements directive. This is a matter that the Treasury and I take very Mr Hoban: The best route for resolving this is through seriously, and we are leading the debate on this in the response to the consultation paper, which the FSA Europe to ensure that the specific nature of mutuals is will publish later this year. It is for the FSA to decide taken into account while, at the same time, not whether or not it should disclose legal opinions, because compromising the quality of capital in the banking it is an independent regulator. The consultation paper is system. We expect a proposal from the Commission on an important way in which to resolve these issues. that later in the year. I was talking about the need to create a modernised I say to the hon. Gentleman that one of the driving legislative framework for mutuals, and capital is part of forces behind our reforms on capital is that we want to that. The Government are also implementing legislation ensure that financial institutions never again turn cap in to allow mutuals to modernise the way in which they hand to the taxpayer for financial support in a financial communicate with their members and to enable them to crisis. That is why it is important that all deposit-taking prosper. The Legislative Reform (Industrial and Provident institutions, regardless of their form of ownership, have Societies and Credit Unions) Order 2010 has been a access to loss-absorbing capital. long time coming. It will be re-laid before Parliament 337WH Financial Mutuals16 FEBRUARY 2011 Financial Mutuals 338WH

[Mr Hoban] We will also implement the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and Credit Unions Act 2010 once the next month and will introduce many quite basic, yet legislative reform order comes into force. That will far-reaching reforms that will enable credit unions to modernise the industrial and provident society name modernise and grow. and the powers available to update the legislation in the future. Other reforms include a consultation on the use Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Will the of electronic communications in the mutual sector. Minister give way? That consultation closed at the end of January, and we will lay an order shortly to enable mutual societies to Mr Hoban: I know that my hon. Friend, as chairman have the option of using electronic communications to of the all-party parliamentary group on credit unions, engage with their members, which would reduce their will have a great deal to say on this matter, but may I costs. just finish my point? I may even be able to answer his Before I go on to talk about the regulatory framework, intervention before he makes it. let me address the issue of Northern Rock. That issue One of the biggest changes will be to allow credit was raised in the Treasury Committee, and I am aware unions to admit corporate bodies to their membership. of the work that has been done on it by Kellogg college. Those new members will be able to deposit in and There is a degree of elegant circularity about remutualising borrow from their local credit union, which provides Northern Rock, given its antecedence. But of course the opportunities for investment and growth in communities. responsibility for managing the Government’s investment Alongside that, various deregulatory measures relax the in Northern Rock rests with United Kingdom Financial rules on age limits for memberships, year-end dates and Investments Ltd. UKFI gave evidence to the Select the ability to offer interest on deposits. These proposals Committee, and if the hon. Member for Harrow West should increase the appeal of local credit unions to the reads the transcript of that sitting, he will see that it is local community and increase their steadily expanding open to ideas about the remutualisation of Northern membership still further. Rock. The principal objective of UKFI is to promote and create value for taxpayers from its management of Damian Hinds: Many of us are waiting with excited our stakes in banks, but it also has to pay due regard to anticipation for the legislative reform order. What expanded financial stability and act in a way that promotes role does the Minister see credit unions potentially competition. Clearly a remutualised Northern Rock playing as a result of the changes in the legislative might help it to do those things. reform order both in a big society context and in encouraging enterprise because of being able to work Mr Thomas rose— with corporate bodies as well as individuals? Mr Hoban: Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, Mr Hoban: It would be a way for credit unions to I will just say that the taxpayer has a £1.4 billion stake make the greatest opportunity of this. We are trying to in Northern Rock, so any solution in terms of open up more possibilities for the financial and mutual remutualisation would need to identify a clear way in sector through a number of our measures. I go back to which the taxpayer would receive a return on that the debate about capital. One of the challenges that I investment. Furthermore, it is not clear how a large put to the building society sector and others is that if it Government shareholding in a mutual would affect had the opportunity to raise more capital, what would mutual status. it do with it. How would it benefit more people as a consequence of having that flexibility? I say to my hon. Friend that corporate members could include charities Mr Thomas: As I said in my opening remarks, I and voluntary groups, and their deposits could help absolutely acknowledge the point about the taxpayers’ credit unions to expand their base, so that they can lend interest in Northern Rock. However, rather than just more to local communities. There is an opportunity allowing the people at UKFI to sit there waiting for there for the voluntary service to help expand that base. ideas, will he write to them and specifically ask them to That will also help to create a much more viable credit conduct a feasibility study into the remutualisation of union sector. Like me, my hon. Friend will have had Northern Rock, addressing the taxpayer issue that he conversations with Mark Lyonette, who wants to make quite rightly mentioned as well as other wider issues? sure that we move the credit union sector on to a much Will he take proactive action on this issue? more stable and viable footing, enabling it to take deposits from others and pay interest on them. Mr Hoban: If the hon. Gentleman reads the transcript of the evidence given by UKFI to the Treasury Committee, Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister may he will know that remutualisation is very much on its be aware that in Wales everybody has access to a credit agenda. In conjunction with Northern Rock, it is about union. Has his Department made any study of the to appoint advisers to advise it on the disposal process. I policy of the Welsh Assembly in that regard? know that UKFI is looking at remutualisation. However, I have yet to see a proposal that demonstrates why Mr Hoban: That point about access to credit unions remutualisation is in the interests of taxpayers. Nevertheless, in Wales was made before the hon. Gentleman came we are open-minded on this issue, and we will wait to into Westminster Hall for the debate. We need to learn see a viable proposal emerge. the lessons. The Treasury is very open to new ideas and Regarding the regulatory framework for mutuals, we any thoughts that he has about why Wales has that will bring Northern Ireland credit unions within the degree of access to credit unions would be much regulatory structure that is in place in the rest of Great appreciated. Britain. That will enhance consumer protection and 339WH Financial Mutuals16 FEBRUARY 2011 Financial Mutuals 340WH ensure that those credit unions become part of the and soundness of institutions. That should be their Financial Services Compensation Scheme, which will driving force and I do not think that an objective on enable their members to appeal to the Financial diversity would fit within the new framework. Ombudsman Service. It will also enable those credit We want to see mutuals grow and thrive. We are unions to seek approval to enter new markets and introducing measures on legislative reform and new therefore help them to grow. In addition, we are looking capital levels, and we are offering greater support to the at the registration and regulation of industrial and mutual sector. Mutuals have a big role to play in the provident societies as part of our review of the regulatory future development of financial services, and this architecture. I know that that is a concern of the co-operative Government are keen to do all we can to ensure that movement and we will seek views on it shortly. they continue to provide an important service to The hon. Member for Harrow West raised the issue communities across the UK. of an objective on diversity for the new regulatory Question put and agreed to. structure. Again, that point has been raised with me before. My concern is to ensure that the new regulators, learning from the mistakes of the past, focus on what 5.14 pm matters—confidence in financial services, and the stability Sitting adjourned.

77WS Written Ministerial Statements16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 78WS

the levy board and I will continue to be guided by their Written Ministerial advice in future years until what should be a straightforward commercial negotiation can be taken permanently out Statements of the hands of Ministers. DEFENCE Wednesday 16 February 2011 Chemical Weapons Convention (Protective Programmes) CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey): The UK’s chemical protection programme is designed 50th Horserace Betting Levy to protect against the use of chemical weapons. Such a programme is permitted by the chemical weapons convention, with which the United Kingdom is fully The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media compliant. Under the terms of the convention, we and Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt): On 1 November 2010 the are required to provide information annually to the Chairman of the Horserace Betting Levy Board (“the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons HBLB”) informed me that the HBLB had been unable (OPCW). In accordance with the Government’s to approve a recommendation from the Bookmakers’ commitment to openness, I am placing in the Library of Committee as to the terms of the 50th levy scheme. the House, a copy of the summary that has been provided Under section 1(2) of the Horserace Betting Levy Act to the organisation outlining the UK’s chemical protection 1969, therefore, it falls to me to determine those terms. programme in 2010. I have considered the parties’ submissions, taking into account their representations on what target amount Defence Infrastructure Organisation would reflect the capacity of bookmakers to pay, what it is reasonable to expect bookmakers to pay and what the reasonable needs of horseracing are in all the The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): I circumstances. am announcing today that I intend to set up a new defence infrastructure organisation (DIO) on 1 April Under section l(3)(a) of the Act, I have decided to this year. We will now launch a consultation process determine a new levy scheme for the 50th levy period with the MOD trade unions. (running from April 2011 to March 2012), under which the following terms will apply: The new organisation will bring together some 7,000 staff currently working on construction, maintenance and The headline rate of levy will increase by 7.5% from 10% to 10.75% for licensed betting offices (“LBOs”) as well as for utilities management and the disposal of land and telephone and internet betting operators (including betting buildings across the Department. exchanges). By making these changes we expect to save about The “threshold” level beneath which LBOs pay an abated 2,500 posts by 2014 and some £1.2 billion over the first rate of levy will be reduced to £50,000. four years alone, without reducing the effectiveness or The levy will continue to be payable only in respect of profits reliability of the service we deliver. This measure will arising on bets placed in relation to British horseracing. make a significant contribution to the civilian staff The rate of levy for bookmakers who derive their gross reductions and efficiency measures set out last October profit from spread betting businesses will increase by 7.5% in the strategic defence and security review. from 2% to 2.15% The flat fee for on-course bookmakers will increase (in line This is the first such change emerging from the work with RPI) to £210, whereas those bookmakers standing of the defence reform unit under Lord Levene designed solely at point-to-point events, harness racing and/or trotting to overhaul the structure of the Department. It is a the flat fee will increase (in line with RPI) to £166. significant change, and demonstrates the radical approach The amount payable in advance by LBOs, telephone and to reorganisation and resourcing which we are taking to internet betting operators will continue to be calculated on ensure that we maximise the amount of the defence the basis of their liability under previous schemes—subject budget made available for the front line. I hope to to an uplift of 7.5%. announce further such changes in the near future. I estimate that this will produce levy proceeds of between £73.7 million—£80.8 million (with a mid-range figure of £77.25 million), and believe that terms outlined FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE above represent a fair deal for bookmakers and horseracing. General Affairs Council/Foreign Affairs Council I am today writing to the Bookmakers’ Committee, British horseracing and the Government-appointed Members of the HBLB to thank them for their submissions The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): The and explain my decision in more detail. I will also ask Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council that the HBLB finalise the operational details of the will meet in Brussels on 21 February. My right hon. scheme as a matter of urgency. Friend the Foreign Secretary will attend the Foreign With the determination concluded, I would like to Affairs Council. I will attend the General Affairs Council. re-state my disappointment that the relevant parties GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL (GAC) were not themselves able to come to terms and I would February and March European Councils strongly encourage them to develop a less adversarial Ministers will discuss follow-up to the February European relationship going forward. I have tried to be fair by Council, which covered energy, innovation and Egypt. listening to the advice of the independent members of Following the Council, the Prime Minister reported the 79WS Written Ministerial Statements16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 80WS outcomes to the House in his statement on the “EU Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH) Council and North Africa”. The statement can be found at the following link: We expect Baroness Ashton and Commissioner Fule to follow-up the discussion in last July’s FAC (which I http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2011/february/ reported in my written ministerial statement) of a reinforced statement-on-eu-council-and-north-africa. EU presence in BiH, by providing more information The conclusions of the February European Council about EU planning in this regard. The Government meeting can be found at: agree that there should be a reinforced EU presence in http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/ BiH, able to deploy deterrents as well as the incentives pressdata/en/ec/l 19175.pdf. inherent in the EU accession process. We will therefore support proposals for the development of an “EU They will also discuss preparation for the March toolbox” of positive and negative measures. We believe European Council. The formal agenda has not yet been that in parallel, the civilian executive (“Bonn”) powers published. However, we expect discussions at the Council need to be retained, that the conditionality for eventual to focus on: closure of the Office of the High Representative continue legislative proposals for economic governance in the eurozone; to apply, and that the executive mandate of the EU European Council decision amending article 136 of the military force, EUFOR Operation Althea, should be treaty on the functioning of the European Union and upheld. We will continue to insist on these points in EU intergovernmental arrangements setting up the European and wider international negotiation. stability mechanism. Sahel These were agreed at the December European Council, We expect Ministers to be presented with a draft see link: security and development strategy for the Sahel region, http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms data/docs/pressdata/ which they requested at the last October’s FAC. The en/ec/118578.pdf. murder of two French nationals in Niger in January Cohesion and the kidnap of an Italian in Algeria this month Ministers will review the fifth cohesion report and the underscore the severity of the terrorist threat in the ongoing public consultation. The report and details of region. Baroness Ashton reacted to the first event in the the public consultation can be found at: following statement on 19 January: http://www.europa-eu-un.org/articles/en/article_10584_en.htm. http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/sources/docoffic/official/ reports/cohesion5/index_en.cfm. Somalia The Government are in the process of forming a Baroness Ashton is expected to give an oral presentation response, which will be presented to Parliament in due of the outline of the EEAS’s Horn of Africa strategy. course. The strategy is expected to focus on regional and cross- cutting issues, looking in particular at the main causes FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL (FAC) of conflict and poverty. There will be a more substantive EU-UN discussion at the March FAC, where we expect the adoption of formal conclusions. Ministers will be briefed on informal consultations held in New York on 14 February between EU member Freedom of Religion states and the wider UN membership on the draft EU Following discussion at the 31 January FAC, we resolution on the “participation of the EU in the work expect conclusions to be adopted on the issue of of the UN”. “Intolerance, discrimination and violence on the basis EU human rights of religion or belief”. We believe these conclusions should send a strong statement of the Council’s concern Baroness Ashton will brief Ministers on the EU’s at instances of persecution or discrimination based on priorities for the forthcoming session of the UN Human religion and its commitment to upholding the right to Rights Council. These are likely to include securing freedom of religion or belief. Council adoption of strong resolutions expressing concern Iran: human rights at the human rights situation in Burma and the DPRK, and resolutions promoting children’s rights and freedom EU member states will discuss the deteriorating human of religion. rights situation in Iran, particularly following the unacceptable execution of dual Dutch/Iranian national EU Southern Neighbourhood (Egypt/Tunisia) Baahrami. Baroness Ashton released a statement on This is an opportunity for Ministers to follow-up the behalf of the EU on 27 January: February European Council debate on Egypt and Tunisia http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms Data/docs/pressdata/ and take stock of the recent momentous events. Baroness en/cfsp/118966.pdf. Ashton is visiting the region this week and will set out Middle East Peace Process her thoughts on the way ahead for the EU. A number of options for EU support to the region are being considered, Baroness Ashton is likely to provide an update on including election monitoring and a re-evaluation of preparations for the March Quartet meeting and report the European neighbourhood partnership (the EU’s on her recent visit to the middle east. There is also likely main vehicle for promoting reform in the region). We to be a discussion of the implications of wider developments want to see an ambitious package of support to the in the region for the MEPP. region, but would also like to see more conditionality The Foreign Secretary will also brief his counterparts attached to this assistance; as the Prime Minister emphasised on his visit to Tunisia, Jordan, Yemen, UAE and Bahrain. to Parliament on 8 February when he reported back on Related press releases can be found on the Foreign and the February European Council. Commonwealth Office’s website: www.fco.gov.uk. 81WS Written Ministerial Statements16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 82WS

Zimbabwe Commonwealth Office (FCO) is today publishing a There is a possibility of a short discussion of Zimbabwe, report of the non-policing costs handled by the FCO on following the adoption of renewed EU targeted measures. behalf of Her Majesty’s Government and the Catholic A full written ministerial statement on this will be laid Church during the Visit of His Holiness Pope Benedict before the House shortly. XVI to the United Kingdom which took place from 16 to 19 September 2010. Hungarian Presidency (Priorities) This was an historic visit, as the first ever official visit by a Pope to the UK, and an important milestone in the The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): Iam relationship between the UK and the Holy See. It was keen to keep hon. Members fully informed on the on a far bigger scale than a normal state visit: police European Union. I would therefore like to draw hon. estimates suggest that 500,000 people saw the Pope Members’ attention to a letter to the Chair of the either during events or along the Pope mobile routes. European Scrutiny Committee and note on the priorities Approximately 3,000 media representatives were accredited of the Hungarian presidency of the European Union, to cover the visit. The combination of official events, which have been placed in the Library of the House. pastoral events, through which the Pope engaged with Britain’s Roman Catholics, and meetings with the Church I have deposited a copy of the Hungarian presidency of England and with people of other faiths, made this a strategic framework, and a calendar of forthcoming visit that was out of the ordinary in every way. events from the presidency. The visit programme included both state and pastoral Legalisation Office elements. HM Government agreed with the Catholic Church that costs would be shared accordingly, with all the costs of the pastoral elements of the programme The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth met by the church. HM Government met the costs of Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): From 1 April 2011 the events which were entirely part of the state visit programme Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) legalisation and contributed to the costs of other events in relation office in Milton Keynes will only accept applications to measures necessary to meet HM Government’s received by post and will process all straightforward responsibility for the safety and security of the public applications within 24 hours (excluding postal times). and of the Pope. The Scottish Government also contributed Updated guidance on how to submit applications will in relation to these measures for the Scottish part of the be on the legalisation office website from 1 March. programme. A majority of customers already send their applications The report consists of: by post—they will see the turnaround time halved from 48 to 24 hours. A third of customers come to the office An exchange of letters and an agreement on division of costs for public events signed by Lord Patten of Barnes and in person—they will now need to submit their applications Archbishop Nichols prior to the visit. The second appendix by post. is not attached as it is a draft budget which is superseded by Ten per cent. of customers are businesses who currently the summary of expenditure attached to this statement have their applications processed within 24 hours. Business (referenced below) customers who submit large volumes of documents on A summary of expenditure made by the FCO on behalf of a daily basis can pre-register to have access to a drop-off HM Government and the Catholic Church. To date, all these and pick-up facility at Milton Keynes with the same costs have been met by the FCO. The bishops’ conferences of 24 hours turnaround. There will be no charge to customers England and Wales and Scotland on behalf of the Catholic for this service. There will be no change to the service Church have undertaken to refund its share of these costs by offered at the legalisation office at Centre Point in the end of February. central London which serves business customers only. This report does not include the estimated £3,800,000 for This change is driven by a desire to ensure that we costs paid direct by the Catholic Church. Neither does it cover any expenditure met by local authorities nor staffing can provide the most efficient service possible. At present costs incurred by other Government Departments. these three different service levels are offered all for the same price. This change moves to a single service level In addition to the costs outlined in the report the for a single price. Over time the changes may also Scottish Government also contributed towards the cost deliver efficiency savings by removing the costs associated of the Scottish part of the programme. with maintaining a public area. I am placing the report in the Library of the House. Legalisation is the official confirmation that the signature, It will also be published on the Foreign and Commonwealth stamp or seal on a UK document is genuine. The Office website (www.fco.gov.uk). legalisation does not certify the authenticity of a document The visit paved the way for further co-operation or give Foreign and Commonwealth Office approval of between the UK and the Holy See on a number of its content. Legalisation is usually required by foreign international issues where we share a common goal, authorities before they will allow a UK document to be including addressing the challenge of climate change, used for official purposes in their country. The legalisation promoting multi-faith dialogue, as a means of working office is the only competent authority in the UK to for peace in the world, and fighting poverty and disease. issue legalisation or apostille certificates in the UK. These were among the issues discussed both in bilateral meetings during the visit and at the working dinner with Pope’s Visit (Costs) the papal delegation hosted by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign The success of the visit was a testament to the close and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): co-operation and effective joint working by the Catholic I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Church, HM Government and many other organisations 83WS Written Ministerial Statements16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 84WS and individuals throughout the UK. I wish to place on We have today published an analysis of the 2009 record HM Government’s gratitude to all those who consultation by the four United Kingdom Health worked together to achieve that success. Departments which sought views on the possible regulation of practitioners of acupuncture, herbal medicine and traditional Chinese medicine. This factual report has Zimbabwe been placed in the Library and can be found on the Department of Health’s website at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Consultations/ The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Responsestoconsultations/DH_124337 Affairs (Mr William Hague): The EU has announced today its decision to roll over the Zimbabwe restrictive Copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote and appropriate measures. Following an in-depth assessment Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. the UK and its EU partners have unanimously agreed I can now set out how we intend to take forward the to the renewal of the measures for a further 12 months, regulation of herbal medicine practitioners and traditional while removing 35 people from the list of those subject Chinese medicines practitioners, specifically with regard to an EU visa ban and asset freeze on the grounds that to the use of unlicensed herbal medicines within their they are no longer involved in human rights abuses or practice. As this matter is a devolved matter in Scotland undermining democracy or the rule of law. and Northern Ireland we have had discussions with Although this amendment reflects the progress made Health Departments in the three devolved Administrations by the Government of Zimbabwe on economic issues which have been constructive and we are committed to and in delivering public services it also reflects our a unified UK-wide approach to the regulation of these strong concern that this has not been matched by equivalent practitioners. political and democratic reform. Essential reforms to When the European Directive 2004/24/EC takes full promote the rule of law, human rights and democracy, effect in April 2011 it will no longer be legal for herbal as agreed under the global political agreement, have not practitioners in the UK to source unlicensed manufactured yet been implemented. We are particularly concerned at herbal medicines for their patients. This Government the upsurge in political violence and intimidation in wish to ensure that the public can continue to have recent weeks. We have, therefore, extended the travel access to these products. restrictions and asset freeze applicable to the remaining In order to achieve this, while at the same time 163 people and 31 economic entities for a further 12 complying with EU law, some form of statutory regulation months. The arms’ embargo remains in place and EU will be necessary and I have therefore decided to ask the and UK bilateral development aid will continue to be Health Professions Council to establish a statutory channelled directly to the people of Zimbabwe through register for practitioners supplying unlicensed herbal the UN and non-state actors, rather than through the medicines. This will ensure that practitioners meet specified Government of Zimbabwe. registration standards. Practitioner regulation will be The UK and our EU partners emphasise our willingness underpinned by a strengthened system for regulating to revisit the measures at any time should there be medicinal products. This approach will give practitioners further concrete developments on the ground in Zimbabwe. and consumers continuing access to herbal medicines. In this context, we fully support the Southern African It will do this by allowing us to use a derogation in the Development Community and its member states in European legislation to set up a UK scheme to permit their effort to facilitate agreement amongst the parties and regulate the supply, via practitioners, of unlicensed in Zimbabwe on creating an environment conducive to manufactured herbal medicines to meet individual patient the holding of free and fair elections. needs. Britain remains a committed friend to the people of The Health Professions Council is an established and Zimbabwe. We gave our largest ever aid package to experienced statutory regulatory body which has the Zimbabwe last year and the DFID Secretary of State necessary experience to be able to successfully establish recently signalled that the UK would significantly increase and maintain a statutory register for practitioners wishing its development effort in Zimbabwe over the next four to supply unlicensed herbal medicines. Subject to years if there are free and fair elections and a reforming parliamentary approval, such practitioners who wish to Government in place. supply unlicensed herbal products will be required by law to register with the HPC. The four UK Health Departments will consult jointly HEALTH on the draft legislation once it is prepared. This will give practitioners and the public the opportunity to comment. Subject to parliamentary procedures we will aim to Acupuncture, Herbal Medicine and Traditional have the legislation in place in 2012. Chinese Medicine Until the new arrangements are in place the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) will continue to take appropriate compliance and The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): enforcement action where products are in breach of the The issue of whether or not practitioners of acupuncture, regulatory requirements. In line with the MHRA’s normal herbal medicine and traditional Chinese medicine should approach, the action taken will be proportionate and be statutorily regulated has been debated since the will target products which pose a public health risk. House of Lords’ Select Committee on Science and Guidance issued by the MHRA makes clear their view Technology’s report in 2000 recommended statutory that, where practitioners hold stocks of unlicensed products regulation for the first two of these groups. on 30 April 2011 that legally benefited from transitional 85WS Written Ministerial Statements16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 86WS arrangements under the European directive, the practitioner must be proportionate and effective, imposing the least can continue to sell those existing supplies to their cost and complexity consistent with securing safety and patients. confidence for patients, service users, carers and the The 2009 consultation also looked at practitioners of wider public. acupuncture. The practice of acupuncture is not affected I have today laid before Parliament a Command by the EU directive and, therefore, compliance is not Paper,“Enabling Excellence—Autonomy and Accountability required. I am confident that acupuncturists have their for Healthcare Workers, Social Workers and Social Care own voluntary regulatory measures in place which are Workers”(Cm 8008) setting out the Government’s proposals sufficiently robust. Additionally, local authorities in for how the system for regulating health care workers England have powers to regulate the hygiene of the across the United Kingdom and social workers in England practice of acupuncture to protect against the risk of should be reformed, to sustain and develop the high transmission of certain infectious diseases. Similar measures professional standards of those practitioners and to are also in place in Scotland, Wales and Northern continue to assure the safety of those using services and Ireland. the rest of the public. I am pleased to say that this decision resolves a The reforms, many of which are being progressed long-standing issue, to the benefit of both practitioners through the Health and Social Care Bill, will give and the public who use herbal medicines. greater independence to those who work in health care across the UK and social care in England, to their employers, and to the professional regulatory bodies; balanced by more effective accountability in how they JUSTICE exercise that freedom. We will seek to drive up standards for some groups of unregulated health and social care workers to improve Health Care Workers, Social Workers and service users’ experience through a system of assured Social Care Workers voluntary registration. Employers and commissioners will be able to give preference to workers on voluntary registers to ensure that they contract with suitably skilled The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): and qualified workers. In line with the Government’s Safe, respectful and effective care is essential and should overall social work reform programme, the proposals be what all users of health and social care services will also strengthen social work as a profession in experience. England. The vast majority of those who work in health and “Enabling Excellence—Autonomy and Accountability social care are committed individuals with a strong for Healthcare Workers, Social Workers and Social sense of professionalism who aspire to deliver the highest Care Workers” is available to hon. Members from the standards. However, where there is poor practice or Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper behaviour that presents a risk to the public, it is vital Office. that swift action is taken, whether by employers, or by national regulatory bodies. Ensuring a strong and effective system for regulating HOME DEPARTMENT health and social care professionals is one of the cornerstones of our strategy for delivering improved Access to Elected Office Consultation outcomes for people who use health and social care services. The current system of professional regulation helps to ensure this by setting high standards of education, The Secretary of State for the Home Department training, conduct and ethics and by taking action to (Mrs Theresa May): Today the Government are publishing remove unsuitable workers in the rare cases when things a consultation paper, co-produced with Equality 20251 go wrong. Regulation of health care workers and social and disability organisations, which seeks views on the workers therefore makes an important contribution to additional support which can be offered to disabled safeguarding the public, including vulnerable children people who wish to become elected representatives. and adults. We want to ensure that our democracy is diverse and However, the regulatory framework is also complex, that we have a political system which better reflects the expensive and requires continuous Government intervention people it serves. To this end, the coalition programme to keep it up to date. More generally, reducing regulation contained an important commitment to introduce is a key priority for the coalition Government. By additional support for disabled people “who want to freeing society from unnecessary laws, the Government become MPs, councillors or other elected officials”. aim to create a better balance of responsibilities between This commitment was borne from the recognition that the state, business, civil society and individuals, and to the 10 million and more disabled people in the UK are encourage people to take greater personal responsibility under-represented in public life. It also follows the for their actions. recommendations made by the cross-party Speaker’s While regulation of some professionals is vital to conference in January 2010 on how to improve the ensure high standards of care, it is only one component representation of women, disabled people and minority of a wider system of safeguards, controls and clinical ethnic people in the House of Commons. governance and ultimate responsibility for the provision In order to produce an effective strategy, we need to of high quality services must rest with employers and establish the practical support needed by disabled candidates those contracting with health and social care workers. to encourage greater participation in public and political We believe that the approach to professional regulation life. This consultation is an opportunity for us to seek a 87WS Written Ministerial Statements16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 88WS diverse range of views, from disabled people themselves codes of practice under the Data Protection Act. Changes will and others, on the measures which would make a real also be made to the terms of the Commissioner’s appointment difference. and tenure to increase transparency and protect against any potential undue influence. The consultation paper sets out a range of proposals Taken together, these steps—to be underpinned by a revised including the establishment of a fund to support disability- framework document outlining the day-to-day relationship between related costs. This will not, however, replace existing Government and the Information Commissioner—will result in a obligations for parties under the Equality Act 2010/ real and tangible enhancement to his independence”. Disability Discrimination Act 1995. In addition to helping break down financial barriers, the proposals are intended to address some of the wider obstacles faced by disabled people who seek elected office, for example introducing TRANSPORT measures to raise awareness and tackle attitudes which might discourage disabled people from putting themselves forward for election. Crossrail (Woolwich Station) The proposals will apply to: English local elections, Greater London authority (GLA) elections, English The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip mayoral elections, police and crime commissioners and Hammond): I am pleased to inform the House today of all candidates from all parts of the UK who are seeking a positive conclusion to discussions with Berkeley Homes elected positions at UK Westminster elections. We would on the funding of Woolwich station box. continue to work with colleagues in the devolved legislatures to help best practice from this strategy to be embedded In 2007, an initial agreement was reached between in the electoral practices for their elections. Crossrail Ltd, the Department for Transport, Transport for London and Berkeley Homes. This agreement stated The consultation will run for a period of 12 weeks, that Berkeley Homes would build the basic box structure until 11 May. A consultation document and instructions of a station at Woolwich and subsequently construct for responding can be found on the Government Equalities their own extensive mixed-use development above it. Office website at www.equalities.gov.uk and a copy has This would be done at Berkeley Homes’ cost and risk, been placed in the Library of the House. to the specification laid down by Crossrail Ltd, in a way A summary of the results of this consultation will be that ensured that the Woolwich station box did not add published on the Government Equalities Office website to the current cost of Crossrail. This agreement was within three months of the end of the consultation outlined to Parliament by the then Secretary of State period. for Transport in March 2007. 1Government’s advisory body on disability issues The Department for Transport, Crossrail Limited, Transport for London, and Berkeley Homes, have in recent months been working urgently to turn this initial agreement into a final, legally binding, agreement. JUSTICE I am therefore pleased to inform the House today that a final agreement has now been reached by all Appointment of the next Information Commissioner parties. This means that engineering work on Woolwich station box can now proceed and the benefit of Crossrail investment can be secured for the residents of Woolwich. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice In due course, fit-out of the Woolwich station box (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): My right hon. Friend the would be required to bring it to operational status. Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, Lord McNally, Government are clear that, in line with the 2007 agreement, has made the following written ministerial statement: no additional public sector contribution can be made “On 7 January 2011, the Government announced their intention available to fund the fit-out of the station box. Instead, to enhance the independence of the Information Commissioner the fit-out is conditional on receiving sufficient funding as part of a wider package of measures to extend the Freedom of contributions from developers and businesses operating Information Act. Additionally, I wish to announce to the House in the area. Berkeley Homes has an obligation to enter today that the Government will strengthen the role of Parliament into discussions with Department for Transport, Transport in the appointment of the next Commissioner in 2014. For this appointment, the Government will offer the Justice Select Committee for London, Crossrail Ltd and Greenwich council, in a pre-appointment hearing with the preferred candidate and will order to provide for the subsequent fitting-out of the accept the Committee’s conclusion on whether or not the candidate station box. All parties, including Berkeley Homes, have should be appointed. This will make the appointment process made clear that they understand and support this position. more open and transparent and enhance the independence of the I shall update the House as and when progress is office. made in relation to the private sector funding of the The Information Commissioner plays a vital role in promoting station fit-out. transparency and protecting the rights of individuals in relation to their personal data. The Government are fully committed to an independent Commissioner and the critical role he plays as a Informal EU Transport Council champion and protector of information rights. The Commissioner is already entirely independent in the decisions The Minister of State, Department for Transport he takes to enforce the legislation he regulates. However, the (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I attended the Informal Meeting provisions to be included in the (Protection of Freedoms) Bill will further enhance his day-to-day corporate and administrative of EU Transport Ministers, organised by the Hungarian independence. The Commissioner will no longer need to seek the presidency in Budapest and Gödöllo on 7 and 8 February. consent of the Justice Secretary on issues relating to staff appointments, The theme was: “TEN-T revision: towards a long-term, charging for certain services, or before issuing certain statutory well-balanced European transport network”. 89WS Written Ministerial Statements16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 90WS

In the plenary debates, I put forward the UK view I also discussed the transport aspects of transposition that the future TEN-T budget should take account of of the air quality directive with Mr Kallas. I pointed out the aftermath of the financial crisis and the need to put that, although we are fully committed to improving air recovery on a strong footing. EU funding will be limited quality, and we recognise the part that transport has to and should be focused on projects that deliver real play, we are keen to ensure that the air quality targets benefits to the network. Cost benefit analysis should are properly targeted at improvements in health, and inform funding decisions. Member states should aim to are consistent with our ambitious goals to reduce carbon do more with less, concentrating on projects that deliver and to create growth. the best value for money. We think that the current Basic Carbon Tool (Local Authorities) model should be followed, focusing funding on the core network, with some funding also available for the comprehensive network. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker): To complement the local transport In the debate on the role of PPPs, I pointed out that White Paper “Creating Growth, Cutting Carbon”, my PPP is only appropriate in selected circumstances, Department has been working on a basic carbon tool implementation can present challenges and requires a for local authorities to assist them in demonstrating the high level of commercial skills, and particular attention carbon benefits of transport interventions in their areas. needs to be paid to the long-term budgetary consequences of its use. I cited the M6 toll road and River Severn Today, I am pleased to announce the publication of the draft basic carbon tool for local authorities on my crossings as good examples of private investment enabling 1 major pieces of infrastructure to be constructed and the Department’s website . cost returned through tolling. I said that the UK The tool fully supports local authorities in making Government are open to tolling as an option for brand their own decisions about the carbon benefits of small-scale new alignments, with potential private sector investment, interventions and enables them to input their own but noted that we have ruled out the introduction of a assumptions and data from best estimates of take-up national road-user charging scheme (except in relation and effects for their areas. The tool also brings together to heavy goods vehicles). in one place central research on local transport and carbon, improves access to national transport data which In the margins of the event I was pleased to be able to can impact on emissions and simplifies carbon appraisal have a meeting with the vice president of the European guidance. Commission responsible for transport, Mr Siim Kallas, The tool can assist authorities in demonstrating the to discuss a range of current issues. carbon benefits of bids to the local sustainable transport During my discussion of airport security scanners fund, but it is for local authorities to decide what tools with Mr Kallas, I welcomed the Commission’s general and evidence best meet the criteria and objectives of the approach to the deployment of scanners. We now need fund in the context of their overall bids. to move quickly to amend existing European legislation My Department plans to publish the final tool in the to give airports the flexibility to deploy scanners effectively summer. and efficiently. The decision on whether to deploy security My officials have sent a letter to all local authority scanners should be for member states. We acknowledge chief executives inviting views on the tool. A copy of health, data protection and privacy concerns and believe this letter has been placed in the House Library. that these can be addressed through existing European 1The web address is: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/policy/ and national laws. carbon-tool/xls1/tool.xls

773W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 774W Written Answers to Electric Vehicles Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Transport what estimate he has made of the emissions arising from charging an electric vehicle through traditional power sources. [37842] Wednesday 16 February 2011 Norman Baker: Government research has estimated that, when calculated on a well to wheel basis, emissions arising from recharging an electric vehicle are up to 40% lower than those associated with a petrol equivalent; TRANSPORT and up to 30% lower than a diesel equivalent. This calculation assumes that the recharging is based on a standard UK grid mix. Airports: Security These reduction figures will automatically improve in line with improvements to the environmental performance Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport of the national grid. what advice his Department issues to security staff at airports on the x-raying of shoes. [40916] Northern Rail: Standards

Mrs Villiers [holding answer 14 February 2011]: Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Transport sets the screening requirements Transport pursuant to the answer of 8 February 2011, and the standards that must be applied to ensure that Official Report, column 146W,on Northern Rail: standards, those entering airside areas of airports are not carrying what information his Department holds on (a) punctuality or concealing a prohibited article. Requirements include and (b) cancellation of services on the (i) Seaton Carew the screening of shoes, in certain circumstances. and (ii) Hartlepool Heworth lines; and what data his For reasons of national security it is not possible to Department uses to monitor quality and timeliness of provide information on the detail of the guidance provided passenger rail services. [40675] on shoe screening either in terms of how and when shoes should be selected for x-ray screening, or in terms Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport does not of the screening process itself. hold punctuality and cancellation information at the level of detail requested. Network Rail provides a public performance measure British Chamber of Shipping: Secondment (PPM) of train punctuality for each train operator covering all of an operator’s services. Northern Rail John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for provide PPM, cancellation and other train performance Transport how many secondments to his Department information at regional service group level to the from the British Chamber of Shipping there have been Department for Transport. Seaton Carew and Hartlepool in each year since 1997; for what (a) periods and (b) stations are in the Tyne, Tees and Wear service group. jobs such secondments took place; what secondments Each of the five passenger transport executives (PTEs) of staff from his Department have been made to the assess the quality of delivery of stations and services British Chamber of Shipping; and for what (i) periods within their area at least every two months. Independent and (ii) jobs such secondments have been made in each auditors undertake service quality audits of Northern’s year since 1997. [40815] stations and trains at least once per year. All results are shared between Northern Rail, the passenger transport Mike Penning: There have been no secondments to or executives and the Department. from the central Department for Transport to or from the Chamber of Shipping since 1997. Railway Stations: Repairs and Maintenance From June to September 2006 and April to July 2007, two Maritime and Coastguard Agency personnel were Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for seconded to the Chamber of Shipping’s Technical and Transport how many railway stations in Devon have Labour Departments. been renovated as part of the National Station Improvement programme. [39255]

Departmental Security Mrs Villiers: Five stations in Devon have been identified by the industry for improvement under the National Stations Improvement programme. Improvements at Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Honiton station are currently underway and improvements which persons not employed by Government Departments at Newton Abbott, Exeter St David’s, Exeter Central or agencies hold passes entitling them to enter his and Plymouth are planned in the future as part of the Department’s premises. [39260] programme. Norman Baker: Passes may be issued to those who are Rolling Stock: Expenditure required to make frequent visits to specific Government sites, subject to the usual security checks. For security Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport reasons, it would not be appropriate to provide details how much the (a) East Midlands Trains, (b) Northern of individuals who hold such passes. Rail, (c) Cross Country, (d) First TransPennine Express 775W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 776W and (e) East Coast rail franchises have paid to rolling Details of the career history of our Director of Communications stock companies since the start of each franchise; and are available on IPSA’s website. I will not, however, be releasing how much of that money each rolling stock company details of the career history of the other two members of the has spent on rolling stock to be operated by each communications team as these members of staff do not form part of IPSA’s senior management and I consider this to constitute franchise. [41095] personal information which should be treated in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998. Mrs Villiers: The rolling stock companies own the rolling stock which is then leased to the operators Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, during the term of the franchise agreement. The details representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent of these agreements are commercially confidential between Parliamentary Standards Authority, how many the parties. communications officers the Independent Parliamentary Shipping: Suffolk Standards Authority employs. [39160] Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary Transport what assessment he has made of the (a) Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. causes and (b) safety implications of the recent collision between a recreational fishing vessel and a tanker off Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated 11 February 2011: the coastline in the Sole Bay area. [41053] As acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Mike Penning: On 9 February the 10 million charter Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking, how many communications officers are employed boat “Chloe-Paige”with two crew was struck off Lowestoft by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. by the 200,000-tonne “Zaliv Vostok”tanker while “Chloe- Paige” was anchored. Our communications team consists of three people. The Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the Marine Members: Allowances Accident Investigation Branch are aware of the collision and are in the process of gathering information from the owner/manager of “Zaliv Vostok”and “Chloe-Paige”. Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent South Eastern Trains Parliamentary Standards Authority, how many apologies the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Mr Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport has issued to hon. Members for wrongly rejecting claims if he will publish the performance data for each for expenditure incurred. [39154] relevant reporting period submitted to his Department by Southeastern Trains in respect of the review of the Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls continuation of the franchise before any decision is within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary taken on its renewal. [41214] Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated 11 February Mrs Villiers: As part of the work relating to the 2011: Southeastern continuation review I am considering what As Acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary information will be published. An announcement will Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary be made on the results of the continuation review in due Question asking how many apologies the Independent Parliamentary course. Standards Authority has issued to hon. Members for wrongly rejecting claims for expenditure incurred. IPSA does not keep a record of apologies it has issued for wrongly rejecting claims. We do, of course, apologise whenever INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY we have acted in error. STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Information Officers representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, if the Independent Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) will take representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent steps to ensure all communications between IPSA and Parliamentary Standards Authority, if he will request hon. Members for the purposes of clarification of a from the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority submitted claim are required to take place on the telephone. the career history of those people employed as [39158] communications officers. [39159] Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated 11 February Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated 11 February 2011: 2011: As Acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary As acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking if the Independent Parliamentary Standards Question asking for publication of the career history of those Authority (IPSA) will take steps to ensure all communication people employed as communications officers for the Independent between IPSA and hon. Members for the purposes of clarification Parliamentary Standards Authority. of a submitted claim is required to take place on the telephone. 777W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 778W

We have no plans to take such steps. Whilst we do provide offences which cause the most harm. Where drug factories support and advice to MPs by telephone, we do not believe that it pose a threat within a community, these will become a is appropriate or beneficial to make this the sole method of focus of police activity. communication for the purposes suggested. No formal assessment has been made of the effects of spending reductions for safer neighbourhood teams in relation to drug enforcement. We have sustained the investment in neighbourhood policing funding for the HOME DEPARTMENT next two financial years to ensure police crime commissioners (PCCs) inherit strong neighbourhood Crime: Drugs policing infrastructure. The exception to this is in London, where the Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for the Metropolitan police authority will have full autonomy Home Department (1) what steps she is taking to over this funding from 2011-12, in recognition of the reduce the manufacture of illicit synthetic drugs in the role the Mayor of London and the Deputy Mayor UK; and if she will make a statement; [40584] already play in policing. There is no need for visible and (2) what steps she is taking to reduce the number of available policing to diminish because of the spending illicit drug factories in local communities; and if she settlement, provided that forces focus on driving out will make a statement; [40585] wasteful spending and increasing efficiency in the back office that they can make. (3) what assessment she has made of the effects of spending reductions for Safer Neighbourhood Teams Driving Under Influence: Drugs on steps to reduce the number of illicit drug factories; and if she will make a statement. [40586] Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans her Department has to James Brokenshire: The Government take the issue of introduce equipment to test motorists suspected of synthetic drugs, including new psychoactive substances driving under the influence of drugs. [41213] (so called ‘legal highs’) very seriously. The manufacture and trafficking in controlled drugs of all classes need to James Brokenshire: Devices used for this purpose be tackled robustly in order to reduce the harm drugs must be of a type approved by the Secretary of State. cause to communities and the organised criminality We recently issued a specification for a device that could associated with their supply. be type approved for use at police stations and have On 30 November 2010, we introduced to this House invited manufacturers to submit devices to the type legislative proposals, in the Police Reform and Social approval process by the end of February. How soon Responsibility Bill, to amend the Misuse of Drugs Act devices might gain approval will depend on the response 1971 with provisions for temporary banning powers on of manufacturers and how well their devices perform in new ‘legal highs’. This will give the police and other law the rigorous testing regime. It will then be a matter for enforcement agencies the power to act, enabling them to individual chief officers of police to decide on purchase. seize these drugs and prosecute those who are selling them. Revenue and Customs: X-rays Those caught supplying or trafficking a temporary ban drug will be committing a serious offence and Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for the subject to a maximum of 14 years in prison and an Home Department what expenditure HM Revenue and unlimited fine. Where an individual is found in possession Customs incurred in operating X-ray scanners in of a temporary ban drug for personal use, police will 2009-10. [41051] have powers to seize and destroy it. Damian Green: The United Kingdom Border Force Evidence indicates that these synthetic drugs and new recorded an operating cost for ‘Scientific Aids’ of psychoactive substances are manufactured outside the £3.4 million in the financial year 2009-10. UK and that is why we need to concentrate the full force of the law at our borders to stop these drugs from getting into the UK. The UK Border Agency are undertaking effective enforcement action against those SCOTLAND criminal gangs who traffic these drugs across our borders, by seizing and destroying shipments of illegal drugs and Petrochemicals those ‘legal highs’ that are subject to an import ban under the Open General Import Licence. Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with INEOS On 1 January 2011, the Home Office launched a Grangemouth and PetrocChina on their agreement for three-month pilot to explore improvements to the current technology sharing in the field of petro-chemicals. forensic early warning system for identifying new and [41116] emerging drugs. As part of this pilot, we are introducing new forensic technology at the borders to support UK David Mundell: The arrangement, including the Border Agency with the identification of any new drug technology sharing agreement, was a commercial matter being imported into the UK. between the two companies. The Government fully Investigations into allegations of illegal synthetic drug support an open, market-based approach to the manufacture within the UK is a matter for the police, development of the downstream oil sector, and welcome who must prioritise resources towards tackling crime, inward investment that benefits UK companies, providing including drug-related crime, with a focus on those a platform for growth in the wider economy. 779W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 780W

JUSTICE include the annually managed expenditure (AME). Departmental AME spending is voted on through the Children: Maintenance supply estimates process. The MoJ is currently reviewing the AME requirement Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and will be working with HM Treasury to agree suitable how many cases at Bexley magistrates court have non cash funding to be voted on through the main involved child maintenance issues in the most recent estimate. period for which figures are available. [40555] Drugs: Sentencing Mr Djanogly: There were fewer than five financial applications made under schedule 1(2) of the Children’s Act 1989 (financial provision for children) at Bexley Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Family Proceedings Court during the period January if he will assess the comparative length of sentences 2010 to September 2010, which is the latest period for given to people convicted of (a) possession and (b) which data are available. possession with intent to supply of (i) cocaine, (ii) heroin and (iii) ecstasy; and if he will make a statement. Departmental Carbon Emissions [40552]

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Blunt: The Sentencing Council is currently developing how much his Department spent on carbon offsetting in a sentencing guideline on drug offences. An important each of the last three years; and to which companies part of that work is an assessment of current sentencing payments for carbon offsetting were made in each such practice to inform the guideline, which will be subject to year. [40518] public consultation before it is finalised.

Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) offsets Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice carbon emissions caused by official air travel. Not only what the average length of a sentence given to people does this mitigate environmental damage caused by convicted of (a) possession and (b) possession with aeroplane exhaust emissions, it helps focus the MOJ on intent to supply of (i) cocaine, (ii) heroin and (iii) alternate methods of travel and communication e.g. ecstasy was in the latest period for which figures are video conferencing. available; and if he will make a statement. [40553] The Department of Energy and Climate Change handles the tender process for all central Government Mr Blunt: The number of persons found guilty, sentenced carbon offsetting schemes as part of the UK Sustainable and the average custodial length of sentence at all Development Strategy. More information on this can courts for ‘possession of’, and ‘possession with intent to be found at: supply’, cocaine, heroin, and ecstasy, England and Wales http://www.defra.gov.uk/sustainable/government/publications/ 2009 (latest available) is shown in the following table. uk-strategy/index.htm Court proceedings data for 2010 are planned for Phase I of the Government Carbon Offsetting Facility publication in the spring, 2011. covers April 2006 to March 2009. The tender was won by Trading Emissions plc and its investment adviser Number of persons found guilty, sentenced and the average custodial sentence length at all courts for offences relating to ‘possession of’ or EEA Fund Management. In those years, the MOJ ‘possession with intent to supply’ Cocaine, Heroin, Ecstasy, in England spent: and Wales, 20091, 2, 3 Offence description Cocaine Heroin Ecstasy £ Having possession of a 2006-07 607 controlled drug: 2007-08 14,825 Found guilty 5,606 4,919 631 2008-09 14,956 Sentenced4 5,572 4,883 639 Of which: Phase II of the Government Carbon Offsetting Facility covers April 2009 to March 2012. The tender applicable Immediate Custody 240 323 26 to the MOJ was won by EDF Trading for spot purchases Other sentences5 5,332 4,560 613 and Essent Trading International SA for forward purchases. The MOJ has so far paid £14,248 for spot purchases Average custodial sentence 8.5 3.8 4.1 and £15,574.68 for forward purchases. length (months)

Departmental Public Expenditure Having possession of a controlled drug with intent Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to supply what assessment his Department has made of its Found guilty 1,640 1,190 197 4 requirements for annually managed expenditure in each Sentenced 1,670 1,205 203 financial year from 2010-11 to 2014-15. [41334] Of which: Immediate Custody 1,303 953 125 Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) Other sentences5 367 252 78 has now received a spending review 2010 funding settlement with HM Treasury, covering both resource and capital Average custodial sentence 36.6 37.6 25.8 departmental expenditure limits (DEL). This did not length (months) 781W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 782W

1 The following statutes were used for the corresponding offences: measure the Act’s overall impact on the prison population Having possession of a controlled drug—Cocaine as part of this assessment. However, we do know that Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 S 5.(2) as amended by Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 provisions in the Act have increased the number of Having possession of a controlled drug—Heroin those drug tested and referred into treatment through Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 S 5.(2) as amended by Criminal Justice the Criminal Justice System. and Public Order Act 1994 S.157 Sch.8 Building on this, the Government’s sentencing and Having possession of a controlled drug—MDMA (Ecstasy) Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 S 5.(2) as amended by Criminal Justice rehabilitation Green Paper and its Drug Strategy both and Public Order Act 1994 include commitments to encourage drug-misusing offenders Having possession of a controlled drug with intent to supply— into recovery based treatment. Cocaine Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, S.5(3) In prisons we will: work with health services to reshape Having possession of a controlled drug with intent to supply— existing drug treatment; establish drug recovery wings Heroin focusing on recovery and abstinence; and connect offenders Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. S.5(3) with community drug recovery services on release. Having possession of a controlled drug with intent to supply— MDMA In the community, we want sentencing reforms to Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, S.5(3) encourage offenders to engage with recovery based 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons treatment and tough community sentences. for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is Employment Tribunals Service imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are how many employment tribunals were cancelled less accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these than 24 hours before the scheduled sitting in the latest data have been extracted from large administrative data systems period for which figures are available. [40732] generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are Mr Djanogly: Listing of hearings in cases (including used. the cancellation, postponement or adjournment of cases) 4 The sentenced column may exceed those found guilty as it may be is a judicial matter. Once listed, ‘cancellations’ can the case that a defendant found guilty, and committed for sentence occur, for example, where the claim is resolved, settled at the Crown court, may be sentenced in the following year. 5 Absolute and conditional discharge, fine, community sentence, or withdrawn before the hearing is scheduled to take suspended sentence and otherwise dealt with. place; where a postponement request is made by one or Source: both of the parties and accepted by the tribunal; or Justice Statistics Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice. where the employment tribunal itself postpones the hearing on its own volition. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment he has made of the effects on the The following table shows all such cancellations over prison population of implementation of the provisions the course of the financial year 2009-10 that were of the Drugs Act 2005. [41033] effected within 24 hours of the scheduled sitting. The data provided are broken down to show cases that were Mr Blunt: An assessment of the Drugs Act 2005 was cancelled (including postponed) on the actual day of published in September 2010. It was not possible to the hearing, and on the previous day.

Settlements ,withdrawals and postponements notified prior to or on day of hearing Settlements/ Postponement by Postponement by Postponement by withdrawals tribunal claimant respondent Total cancellations

Notified day of hearing 1,240 239 1,458 19 2,956 Notified day prior to 4,072 1,649 8,028 271 14,020 hearing Source: Employment Tribunal Central database February 2011

Legal Aid efficiency of any significant reduction in fairness of dispute resolution arising from implementation of his Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice proposals; [40633] (1) whether he has discussed with ministerial colleagues (3) whether he has discussed with the Secretary of the findings in paragraph 27 of the impact assessment State for (a) the Home Department and (b) Communities of his cumulative proposals for reform of legal aid in and Local Government the findings in paragraph 27 of respect of the potential effects on (a) resource costs for the impact assessment of his cumulative proposals for and (b) transfer payments to other departments of any reform of legal aid in respect of the potential effect on significant reduction in fairness of dispute resolution levels of (i) social inclusion and (ii) criminality of any arising from implementation of his proposals; [40632] significant reduction in fairness of dispute resolution (2) whether he has discussed with (a) the Chancellor arising from implementation of his proposals. [40634] of the Exchequer and (b) the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills the findings in paragraph Mr Djanogly: Extensive discussions, at both ministerial 27 of the impact assessment of his cumulative proposals and official levels, have been conducted with other for reform of legal aid in respect of the potential effects Government Departments on a range of issues. These on levels of (i) economic efficiency and (ii) business discussions will continue as we finalise proposals. 783W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 784W

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for An impact on the incidence of mental health issues, Justice what discussions he has had with not-for-profit as a result of the proposals for reform of legal aid, has advice organisations on the likely effects on them of not been identified at this time. However, our consultation loss of funding streams from legal aid budgets; and if “Proposals for the Reform of Legal Aid in England and he will make a statement. [40670] Wales” closed on 14 February 2011 and we are in the process of considering the responses. If appropriate, it Mr Djanogly: I have met with a number of representatives will be addressed in our response paper and the associated from the not-for-profit organisations recently to discuss Impact Assessments and Equality Impact Assessments, the proposals for the reform of legal aid in England and which is planned to be published in the spring. Wales. Not-for-profit providers receive funding from a variety of sources including legal aid. However income from Legal Aid: Personal Injury and Negligence legal aid represents a minority of the funding of the not for profit advice sector. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of We are working closely with colleagues in other State for Justice what plans he has for future provision Departments who fund not-for-profit advice providers of legal aid to people in respect of (a) personal injury to identify how best to take a cross-Government approach and (b) clinical negligence cases; and if he will make a to this issue. I recently met with the Minister for Civil statement. [41009] Society, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd) to discuss Mr Djanogly: On 15 November the Secretary of State how this can best be achieved. for Justice announced the publication of a consultation on a package of proposals for the reform of legal aid. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The consultation proposes that legal aid ceases to be what estimate he has made of the cost to the public available for clinical negligence matters. purse of claims brought against Government Departments Most personal injury cases were removed from the and other public bodies by employees under no-win, scope of the civil legal aid scheme by the Access to no-fee contracts with their legal representatives. [40731] Justice Act 1999. Legal aid funding is still available for claims, including personal injury claims, against public The Attorney-General: I have been asked to reply. authorities alleging serious wrong-doing, abuse of position No estimate has been made of the cost to the public of power or significant breach of human rights. We purse of such claims. Insufficient data are available to have proposed replacing the existing “serious wrong-doing” support the making of a meaningful estimate. ground for funding, and replacing it with “negligent Most employment, and employment-related, claims acts or omissions falling very far below the required against Government are taken in the Employment Tribunals. standard of care” as a ground for funding these claims. Under existing procedural rules governing claims made Funding is currently available for any claim, including by employees before the Employment Tribunals, there is a personal injury claim, which has a significant wider no requirement to notify a respondent employer that a public interest. The current consultation proposes to conditional fee (no-win, no-fee) agreement (CFA) is in abolish the rule which brings back into the scope of place, unlike in the civil Courts. Legal representatives civil legal aid any case which has a significant wider will not divulge such an arrangement unless they are public interest. While the Government recognises that required to as, first, they have an obligation of public interest is an important factor, which should confidentiality to their clients;, secondly, knowledge of continue to be reflected in the Funding Code merits such will give negotiating advantage to their opponents; criteria for granting civil legal aid, we do not consider and, thirdly, Employment Tribunals are generally a no that it should be either a solely determinative factor in costs jurisdiction, where awards of costs are not made deciding whether legal aid should be granted, or a basis unless the claim or defence has been “frivolous, vexatious for bringing back into scope otherwise excluded cases. or otherwise unreasonable”. In the circumstances, it Funding is available for claims, including personal would not be possible to keep any sort of accurate injury claims, arising from allegations of abuse of a record of the incidence of such agreements in these child or vulnerable adult, or sexual assault. cases, or to make an assessment of their impact upon the outcomes of claims. We have proposed that these cases remain within the scope of civil legal aid. Funding is available for housing Legal Aid: Mental Health cases, as defined by the civil legal aid Funding Code, including for housing personal injury claims. We have proposed that housing personal injury claims are removed Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for from the scope of civil legal aid. Justice if he will discuss with the Secretary of State for Health the potential effects of the proposed removal Legal aid is also available for advice on applications of legal aid funding for face-to-face assistance with to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority. We financial entitlement matters on the incidence of have proposed that this advice ceases to be in scope for legal aid because the application is a straight-forward mental ill-health arising from such matters. [40672] one and assistance is available from the authority. Mr Djanogly: We have recently had discussions with The consultation paper: “Proposals for the Reform a number of ministerial colleagues regarding a range of of Legal Aid in England and Wales” is available at the matters affecting our respective Departments, including Ministry of Justice website at: the potential impact of the proposals for reform of http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/legal-aid-reform- legal aid. 151110.htm 785W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 786W

Legal Aid: Rochdale that would cease to operate without legal aid funding; and if he will make a statement. [40671] Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much his Department spent on the provision Mr Djanogly: The LSC hold legal aid contracts with of legal aid in Rochdale constituency in each of the last a number of not-for-profit organisations. However, this five years. [40635] information is being collated and I will write to the hon. Member as soon as it is available. Many not-for-profit Mr Djanogly: The information requested is not readily providers receive funding from a variety of sources available as for example payments to criminal barristers including legal aid. However income from legal aid cannot easily be broken down by the location of the represents a minority of the funding of the not-for-profit barrister or client. The information therefore could be advice sector. It is therefore not possible to determine provided only at disproportionate cost. with any certainty which organisations would cease to operate without legal aid. Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for We are working closely with colleagues in other Justice how many people in Rochdale constituency Departments who fund advice providers, to identify received legal aid in each of the last five years. [40636] how best to take a cross-Government approach to this issue. I recently met with the Minister for Civil Society, Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, is responsible for administering the legal aid scheme in Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd) to discuss how this England and Wales. can best be achieved. The LSC does not record the number of people who We published initial impact assessments and equality receive legal aid, but instead records the number of ‘acts impact assessments along with our reform proposals, of assistance’. One individual may receive a number of which considered the effect on the not for profit sector. separate acts of assistance, and one act of assistance We sought the views of not for profit organisations can help more than one person. during the consultation which ended on 14 February. The following table show the numbers of acts of The consultation response which is due to be published assistance delivered by legal aid providers with postcodes in the spring will feature accompanying full impact falling within the Rochdale constituency. assessments and equality impact assessments. Rochdale constituency—legal aid acts of assistance1 Legal Profession Financial year 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Civil Representation 377 363 305 303 364 what estimate he has made of the number of lawyers certificates issued per 10,000 head of population. [40840] Legal Help New 2,454 2,134 2,046 2,099 2,070 Matter Starts in Mr Djanogly: The number of authorised persons, Civil and who are often referred to as lawyers, providing reserved Immigration legal activities in England and Wales at 1 April 2009, as Crime Higher case 354 358 412 472 487 collated by the Legal Services Board, totals 140,124. Of volumes those approximately 113,000 were solicitors. The Office Crime Lower claim 5,132 4,762 4,923 5039 4,953 for National Statistics estimates that the mid-year volumes population of England and Wales for 2009 totalled Total 8,317 7,617 7,686 7,913 7,874 54,809,100. This equates to approximately 26 ‘lawyers’ 1 The figures do not include legal aid received via telephone advice, per 10,000 head of population in England and Wales. the Housing Possession Court Duty Scheme, telephone triage, or family mediation. National Offender Management Service: Qualifications Legal Aid: Social Security Benefits Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if Justice what proportion of all those employed at the he will estimate the savings that would accrue to the (a) head office and (b) regional offices of the National Exchequer from ceasing to provide legal aid for advice Offender Management Service have (i) a probation in relation to decisions about welfare benefits in terms qualification, (ii) a prison service qualification, (iii) of (a) total managed expenditure and (b) annually experience in probation work and (iv) experience in managed expenditure in respect of each department; prison service work. [41070] and if he will make a statement. [40858] Mr Blunt: Information about the qualifications and Mr Djanogly: There is no intention to make such an experience of individual members of staff is not held estimate; nor would it be possible to do so to any degree centrally. To obtain the information requested would of accuracy. involve identifying and contacting sources of information in many different locations and would thus incur disproportionate cost. Legal Aid: Third Sector Offensive Weapons: Prison Sentences Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether he has made an estimate of (a) the number of Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice not-for-profit organisations who rely on funding from (1) how many people were (a) convicted, (b) cautioned legal aid streams and (b) the number of such organisations and (c) given custodial sentences for possession of a 787W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 788W blade or an instrument in each year between 1991 and Mr Blunt: The number of persons cautioned and the 2010; [40862] number of persons proceeded against at magistrates (2) how many people were (a) convicted, (b) cautioned courts and found guilty and sentenced at all courts for and (c) given custodial sentences for possession of an offences relating to possession of an article with a blade article with a blade or point in each year between 1991 or point, England and Wales 1991 to 2009 (latest available) and 2010; [40863] are shown in the tables. (3) how many people were (a) convicted, (b) cautioned Data for 2010 are planned for publication in the and (c) given custodial sentences for possession of a spring of 2011. knife in each year between 1991 and 2010. [40864]

Persons cautioned, and the number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts and found guilty and sentenced at all courts for offences relating to possession of an article with a blade or point1, England and Wales 1991 to 20092,3,4,5 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 19966 1997 1998 1999 2000

Cautioned 704 1,055 1,282 1,292 1,512 1,302 1,629 1,976 1,663 1,758

Proceeded against 2,397 2,640 2,553 3,366 3,474 3,605 4,489 4,888 4,566 4,673 Found guilty 1,737 1,848 1,852 2,502 2,559 2,665 3,360 3,805 3,548 3,555 Sentenced8 1,729 1,847 1,853 2,501 2,558 2,666 3,360 3,804 3,564 3,562 Of which: Immediate custody 5114562375550536506 Other sentences9 1,724 1,846 1,852 2,497 2,553 2,604 2,985 3,254 3,028 3,056

2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20087 2009

Cautioned 1,652 1,805 1,746 2,374 3,154 3,503 3,460 2,589 1,641

Proceeded against 5,823 6,963 6,928 7,352 7,319 7,699 7,404 7,547 9,235 Found guilty 4,361 5,338 5,396 5,890 6,005 6,369 6,169 6,368 7,646 Sentenced8 4,364 5,326 5,399 5,908 6,002 6,334 6,166 6,453 7,678 Of which: Immediate custody 592 773 761 815 970 1,075 1,065 1,377 1,675 Other sentences9 3,772 4,553 4,638 5,093 5,032 5,259 5,101 5,076 6,003 1 Offences used: Criminal Justice Act 1988 S.139 as amended by Offensive Weapons Act 1996 S.3—Having an article with blade or point in public place Criminal Justice Act 1988 S.139A (1) & (5)(a) added by Offensive Weapons Act 1996 S.4(1)—Having an article with blade or point on school premises 2 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time the principal offence is the more serious offence. 3 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These are included in the totals. 4 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 5 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 6 In July 2006 this offence changed from being a summary to a triable either-way offence. 7 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July, and August 2008. 8 The sentenced column may exceed those found guilty as it may be the case that a defendant found guilty, and committed for sentence at the Crown court, may be sentenced in the following year. 9 Includes: Absolute/conditional discharge, Community Sentence, Suspended Sentence and Otherwise dealt with. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice

Offensive Weapons: Prison Sentences information those offences proceeded against which also included the possession of a knife or offensive Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice weapon. how many offences involving the possession of a knife Prison Sentences or offensive weapon resulted in a (a) caution, (b) absolute or conditional discharge, (c) fine, (d) community sentence, (e) suspended sentence, (f) immediate custody Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and (g) other disposal in each year from 1991 to 2011. (1) how many people were convicted of burglary and [40780] received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) Mr Blunt: Information collated centrally by the Ministry six months and (f) four months in the latest period for of Justice does not include the circumstances of each which figures are available; [40741] case other than where specified in a statute. It is not (2) how many people were convicted of sexual possible therefore to separately identify from this assault and received a custodial sentence of less than 789W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 790W

(a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) four months in year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest the latest period for which figures are available; [40754] period for which figures are available; [40742] (15) how many people were convicted of rape of a (3) how many people were convicted of grievous male and received a custodial sentence of less than (a) bodily harm and received a custodial sentence of less four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest period one year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the for which figures are available; [40755] latest period for which figures are available; [40743] (16) how many people were convicted of rape of a (4) how many people were convicted of rape and female and received a custodial sentence of less than received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest six months and (f) four months in the latest period for period for which figures are available; [40756] which figures are available; [40744] (17) how many people were convicted of sexual (5) how many people were convicted of assault on a male and received a custodial sentence of manslaughter and received a custodial sentence of less less than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) four months in one year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the the latest period for which figures are available; [40757] latest period for which figures are available; [40745] (18) how many people were convicted of child (6) how many people were convicted of attempted abduction and received a custodial sentence of less murder and received a custodial sentence of less than than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one one year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest latest period for which figures are available; [40758] period for which figures are available; [40746] (19) how many people were convicted of abandoning (7) how many people were convicted of forgery and children aged under two years and received a custodial received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) six months and (f) four months in the latest period for four months in the latest period for which figures are which figures are available; [40747] available; [40759] (8) how many people were convicted of fraud and (20) how many people were convicted of cruelty or received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four neglect of children and received a custodial sentence of years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) less than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, six months and (f) four months in the latest period for (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) four months in which figures are available; [40748] the latest period for which figures are available; [40760] (9) how many people were convicted of theft of a (21) how many people were convicted of wounding motor vehicle and received a custodial sentence of less or other acts endangering life and received a custodial than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, one year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) latest period for which figures are available; [40749] four months in the latest period for which figures are (10) how many people were convicted of theft from a available; [40761] person and received a custodial sentence of less than (22) how many people were convicted of causing (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one death by aggravated vehicle-taking and received a year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest custodial sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three period for which figures are available; [40750] years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (11) how many people were convicted of robbery and (f) four months in the latest period for which figures received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four are available; [40762] years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) (23) how many people were convicted of causing six months and (f) four months in the latest period for death by driving while unlicensed or uninsured and which figures are available; [40751] received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four (12) how many people were convicted of sexual years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) activity with a child under 16 and received a custodial six months and (f) four months in the latest period for sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, which figures are available; [40763] (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) (24) how many people were convicted of causing four months in the latest period for which figures are death of a child or vulnerable person and received a available; [40752] custodial sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three (13) how many people were convicted of sexual years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) six months and activity with a child under 13 and received a custodial (f) four months in the latest period for which figures sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, are available; [40764] (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) (25) how many people were convicted of causing four months in the latest period for which figures are death by careless driving when under the influence of available; [40753] drink or drugs and received a custodial sentence of less (14) how many people were convicted of sexual than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) assault of a female and received a custodial sentence of one year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the less than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, latest period for which figures are available; [40765] 791W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 792W

(26) how many people were convicted of (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) manslaughter due to diminished responsibility and four months in the latest period for which figures are received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four available; [40773] years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) (34) how many people were convicted of possession six months and (f) four months in the latest period for of a controlled drug and received a custodial sentence which figures are available; [40766] of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two (27) how many people were convicted of causing years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) four death by reckless driving and received a custodial months in the latest period for which figures are sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, available; [40774] (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) (35) how many people were convicted of criminal four months in the latest period for which figures are damage and received a custodial sentence of less than available; [40767] (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one (28) how many people were convicted of threat or year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest conspiracy to murder and received a custodial sentence period for which figures are available; [40775] of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two (36) how many people were convicted of arson and years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) four received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four months in the latest period for which figures are years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) available; [40768] six months and (f) four months in the latest period for (29) how many people were convicted of perverting which figures are available; [40776] the course of justice and received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two (37) how many people were convicted of common years, (d) one year, (e) six months and (f) four assault and received a custodial sentence of less than months in the latest period for which figures are (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one available; [40769] year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest period for which figures are available; [40777] (30) how many people were convicted of violent disorder and received a custodial sentence of less than (38) how many people were convicted of dangerous (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one driving and received a custodial sentence of less than year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one period for which figures are available; [40770] year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest period for which figures are available; [40778] (31) how many people were convicted of kidnapping and received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four (39) how many people were convicted of a firearms years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) offence and received a custodial sentence of less than six months and (f) four months in the latest period for (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one which figures are available; [40771] year, (e) six months and (f) four months in the latest (32) how many people were convicted of blackmail period for which figures are available. [40779] and received a custodial sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, (c) two years, (d) one year, (e) Mr Blunt: The number of persons found guilty at all six months and (f) four months in the latest period for courts for selected offences, by sentence breakdown and which figures are available; [40772] sentence length, England and Wales 2009 (latest available) (33) how many people were convicted of intent to is shown in the following table. supply a controlled drug and received a custodial Data for 2010 are planned for publication in the sentence of less than (a) four years, (b) three years, spring of 2011.

Number of persons found guilty at all courts for selected offences, by sentence breakdown and sentence length, England and Wales, 20091, 2 Length of sentence Over Over Over Over Over 1 year 2 years 3 years Less 4 months 6 months and up and up and up Found Immediate than and up to and up to to to to Over Other Offences guilty Sentenced3 custody 4 months 6 months 1 year 2 years 3 years 4 years 4 years disposals4

Burglary 22,973 22,758 10,026 2,153 961 1,890 2,259 1,685 653 425 12,732 Sexual 2,070 2,060 1,053 88 44 154 259 177 110 221 1,007 assault Grievous 6,463 6,440 4,147 56 113 808 1,320 627 409 814 2,293 bodily harm5 Rape 997 999 941 1 1 3 18 31 62 825 58 Manslaughter 219 219 202 — — 4 17 35 18 128 17 Attempted 919284— — ————848 murder Forgery 4,290 4,294 2,609 359 804 1,206 197 22 13 8 1,685 Fraud 16,732 16,638 2,778 970 364 681 475 159 63 66 13,860 Theft of a 852 851 236 140 41 25 24 4 2 — 615 motor vehicle Theft from a 5,899 6,122 1,959 974 305 346 226 69 29 10 4,163 person Robbery 8,644 8,663 5,155 121 147 739 1,313 1,040 773 1,022 3,508 offences 793W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 794W

Number of persons found guilty at all courts for selected offences, by sentence breakdown and sentence length, England and Wales, 20091, 2 Length of sentence Over Over Over Over Over 1 year 2 years 3 years Less 4 months 6 months and up and up and up Found Immediate than and up to and up to to to to Over Other Offences guilty Sentenced3 custody 4 months 6 months 1 year 2 years 3 years 4 years 4 years disposals4

Sexual 762 751 472 7 9 50 138 109 78 81 279 activity with a child under 16 Sexual 207 201 86 3 3 13 22 10 13 22 115 activity with a child under 13 Sexual 1,867 1,851 935 83 41 137 225 156 97 196 916 assault of a female Rape of a 656656———5254410 male Rape of a 932 933 885 1 1 3 13 29 57 781 48 female Sexual 203 209 118 5 3 17 34 21 13 25 91 assault on a male Child 55 56 16 — 1 4 6 3 — 2 40 abduction Abandoning 2 2 1 — 1 ————— 1 children Cruelty or 720 714 158 25 19 42 38 17 7 10 556 neglect of children Wounding or 1,886 1,884 1,626 12 8 29 131 291 341 814 258 other acts endangering life Causing 109 7— 1 2—13— 2 death by aggravated vehicle taking offences Causing 11101 — 1 ————— 9 death by driving unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured drivers Causing 13 13 11 — — 3 2 1 — 5 2 death of a child or vulnerable person Causing 353533— 1 2167162 death by careless driving under the influence of drink and drugs Manslaughter 8 8 4—————13 4 due to diminished responsibility Causing 225 233 218 3 5 14 51 41 29 75 15 death by reckless driving Threat or 417 397 182 20 28 33 50 21 6 24 215 conspiracy to murder Perverting 1,797 1,790 748 245 154 224 94 16 14 1 1,042 the course of justice Violent 466 461 268 8 9 84 133 28 5 1 193 disorder Kidnapping 427 426 310 — 8 31 70 58 41 102 116 Blackmail 176 177 132 1 4 11 33 24 24 35 45 795W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 796W

Number of persons found guilty at all courts for selected offences, by sentence breakdown and sentence length, England and Wales, 20091, 2 Length of sentence Over Over Over Over Over 1 year 2 years 3 years Less 4 months 6 months and up and up and up Found Immediate than and up to and up to to to to Over Other Offences guilty Sentenced3 custody 4 months 6 months 1 year 2 years 3 years 4 years 4 years disposals4

Intent to 6,349 6,394 3,701 102 114 478 1,031 879 591 506 2,693 supply a controlled drug Possession of 41,306 41,071 1,286 1,078 70 45 44 15 11 23 39,785 a controlled drug Criminal 39,550 39,497 1,800 1,636 50 44 41 14 9 6 37,697 damage Arson 1,461 1,449 549 43 24 48 128 101 90 115 900 Common 52,73852,8496,7875,6761,1018 2———46,062 assault Dangerous 3,386 3,483 1,309 224 250 615 220 — — — 2,174 driving Firearms6 1,850 1,852 827 52 31 98 123 122 44 357 1,025

Total 226,154 225,957 51,716 14,086 4,717 7,891 8,743 5,814 3,618 6,847 174,241 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed fortwoor more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 The sentenced column may exceed those found guilty as it may be the case that a defendant found guilty, and committed for sentence at the Crown court, may be sentenced in the following year. 4 Includes: Absolute/conditional discharge, Community Sentence, Suspended Sentence and Otherwise dealt with. 5 Grievous Bodily Harm offences form part of the offence group of malicious wounding offences. 6 Includes possession, certificate related and miscellaneous firearms offences. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Prison Service: ICT (2) in which prisons it is known that asbestos is present in the fabric of the buildings; and when the Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice asbestos was detected in each case; [41196] who in his Department signed off the contract for (3) whether asbestos was known to be present in the central procurement of IT equipment in prisons. [40954] fabric of Ford Open Prison on 31 December 2010; and whether the asbestos was damaged or disturbed as a Mr Blunt: The Quantum contract between the Secretary result of the recent disturbance; [41197] of State for the Home Department and Electronic Data (4) in which prisons work has taken place to remove Systems Ltd for the provision of ICT to HM Prison asbestos from the fabric of the building in each of the Services was signed by Claire Pelham, Director of Corporate last 10 years; what the cost of such work was in each Affairs of HM Prison Service on 29 February 2000. case; what work to remove asbestos from each Prisoners: Ex-servicemen previously identified prison with an identified asbestos presence is planned in each of the next three years; and if he will make a statement; [41198] Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether it is the policy of prison establishments to ask (5) what recent steps have been taken at each prison inmates at reception whether they have served in the establishment to (a) identify, (b) manage and (c) armed forces. [41020] remove asbestos from the fabric of the buildings; and if he will make a statement. [41199] Mr Blunt: Prison reception staff are not required to Mr Blunt: A comprehensive survey of the estate for ask newly arrived prisoners whether they have served in asbestos took place in 2002-03, and a programme to the armed forces. However, prisoners have the opportunity remove high risk asbestos was implemented following to discuss aspects of their background with staff during this review. the induction and assessment processes. Governors of more than 100 prison establishments have made resources Prisons: Visits available to support the Veterans in Custody Support scheme, which encourages veteran prisoners to disclose Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice their status, if they chose to do so. how much of the money paid to friends and relatives to assist them in visiting prisoners was provided for subsistence Prisons: Asbestos costs in the latest period for which figures are available. [40955] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what steps he has taken to identify the Mr Blunt: Financial assistance has been available to presence of asbestos in the fabric of prisons; and if he families to visit prisoners since the 1950s when it was will make a statement; [41195] run by the National Assistance Board on an individual 797W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 798W needs basis. The formal Assisted Prisons Visits Scheme Percentage has been in existence since 1970 and became part of the How many hours a day do National Offender Management Service in 2008. you watch TV for, on Currently the scheme has two rates of subsistence; a average? 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 rate where travel time is between five and 10 hours of £2.55 and a rate where travelling takes in excess often Don’t have a TV 0.4 0.5 0.5 0.5 hours of £5.10. It does not record attendance at concerts, and the In the financial year 2009-10 the total amount paid to data for museums and art galleries cannot be divided friends and relatives under the scheme was £196,000. between the two categories.

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Broadband: Devon Justice if he will estimate the administrative cost of reimbursing relatives of prisoners for prison visits by Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for girocheque in the latest period for which figures are Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent available; and if he will estimate the cost of making estimate he has made of the number of households in such payments by BACS. [40956] Devon with a broadband connection speed of less than 2mbps. [39256] Mr Blunt: The Assisted Prison Visits Unit made 59,501 girocheque payments in the year 2009-10 at an Mr Vaizey: The Digital Britain report (June 2009) estimated inclusive cost of £98,000. It is estimated that reported that 12-15% of the telephone lines in Devon payment by BACS could have an inclusive cost of were unsuitable for broadband at 2Mbps. £15,000 per year. Broadband Delivery UK is assessing current broadband A proposal is actively being pursued to upgrade provision at community level across the UK in its work current APVU systems. to deliver the coalition Government’s objective to facilitate universal broadband access of at least 2Mbps and achieve the best superfast broadband network in Europe by 2015. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Broadband: Wales Arts: Public Participation Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what areas of North Wales Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has are included in the pilot area for superfast broadband made of long-term trends in (a) visits to art galleries, announced on 10 February 2011. [41162] (b) visits to museums, (c) attendance at concerts, (d) attendance at musical theatre, (e) attendance at cinema, Mr Vaizey [holding answer 15 February 2011]: The (f) attendance at theatre and (g) television viewing. funding announced by the Chancellor will help bring [41038] superfast broadband to hard-to-reach areas and extend superfast broadband to Pwllheli and the surrounding Mr Vaizey: The Department assesses attendance trends areas of North Wales. at cultural events and television watching in the Taking Part survey. The information set out in the following Departmental Carbon Emissions tables is from the August 2010 published reports.

Percentage Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, In the last 12 Olympics, Media and Sport how much his Department months, have you spent on carbon offsetting in each of the last three been to a... 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 years; and to which companies payments for carbon offsetting were made in each such year. [40289] Film at a cinema 52.3 51.9 51.7 50.2 54.7 or other venue John Penrose: The Department has spent the following Play/drama 22.7 21.7 22.4 21.0 21.4 amounts on carbon offsetting over the last three years. Musical — — — 22.4 23.5 Museum/gallery 42.3 41.5 43.5 44.5 46.7 Companies to whom payment made Amount (£)

Percentage 2009-10 EDF Trading Ltd 84 Government Carbon 2,882 Offsetting Fund How many hours a day do youwatchTVfor,on 2008-09 Government Carbon Offsetting Fund 3,469 average? 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2007-08 Government Carbon Offsetting Fund 3,469

Never watch TV 1.4 1.4 1.5 1.8 Digital Economy Act 2010 Less than 1 hour 7.6 7.8 7.6 7.7 About 1 hour 11.8 11.9 12.3 11.6 About 2 hours 26.8 27.2 27.4 26.6 Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, About 3 hours 22.5 21.7 21.2 22.7 Olympics, Media and Sport what definition of the term About 4 hours 14.7 14.6 14.6 14.2 economically sterile traffic his Department uses; and About 5 hours or more 14.7 14.7 14.9 14.7 what plans his Department has to remove such traffic from networks. [41338] 799W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 800W

Mr Vaizey: The Department does not have a standard EU Electronic Communications Framework definition of the term “economically sterile traffic”, and does not have a policy dedicated to removing such Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, traffic from networks. Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he plans to take in respect of implementation of the EU Electronic Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communications Framework. [39557] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made of the cost to Ofcom of implementation of Mr Vaizey: DCMS is currently implementing revisions sections 3 to 16 of the Digital Economy Act 2010; and to the EU Electronic Communications Framework. The if he will make a statement. [41339] deadline for implementation is 25th May 2011. Following a public consultation which ran between Mr Vaizey: Ofcom is expected to incur one-off costs September and December last year officials are currently of £5.8 million, and ongoing costs of £5 million per analysing responses. annum as a result of its responsibilities under the Digital We will publish the responses to that consultation Economy Act. These responsibilities include monitoring and revised impact assessments In March and lay the and enforcement activities, devising a code of practice, statutory instruments that will enable legislative change and the establishment of an appeals mechanism. in April. These estimates can be found in the impact assessment which accompanied the draft statutory instrument on Sport cost-sharing for the initial obligations under the Digital Economy Act. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/business-sectors/docs/i/ Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has 10-1164-impact-assessment-cost-sharing-consultation.pdf made of the trends in long-term participation rates in each region for (a) football, (b) cricket, (c) rugby, (d) Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, volleyball, (e) netball, (f) swimming and (g) hockey Olympics, Media and Sport for what reasons his by age and sex. [41239] Department has decided to impose 25 per cent. loss of costs for implementation of sections 3 to 16 of the Hugh Robertson: The detail on participation in these Digital Economy Act 2010 on internet service providers. sports is contained in the surveys I referred to in my [41340] reply to the hon. Member on 7 February 2011, Official Report, column 11W. In addition, I understand that Sport England has already contacted the hon. Member Mr Vaizey: Placing part of the costs for the to offer their help in providing any further specific implementation of the initial obligations under the pieces of information that he would like. I will, of Digital Economy Act on internet service providers means course, answer any questions that he may have in this that they have a real incentive to adopt efficient and House, but hope that the Sport England contact will effective systems for issuing notifications and producing also prove helpful. copyright infringement lists. This apportionment of costs was consulted upon in Sport: Finance 2010. The consultation document, along with the individual responses and Government response can be found at Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, http://www.bis.gov.uk/Consultations/online-infringement-of- Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of copyright?cat=closedwithresponse 7 February 2011, Official Report, column 12W, on sport: finance, what proportion of the grant-in-aid received Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, by Sport England in each year from 2000-01 to 2009-10 Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made was spent in each region; and what estimate he has of the effects on consumer demand for internet broadband made of the proportion of such grant in aid funding of implementation of sections 3 to 16 of the Digital that will be spent in each region in each year from Economy Act 2010. [41341] 2010-11 to 2015-16. [41284]

Mr Vaizey: The impact assessment which accompanied Hugh Robertson: A regional breakdown of grant in the Digital Economy Act contains this information. aid received by Sport England is not held and to commission Assuming that internet service providers fully pass down this information would exceed the disproportionate cost to consumers the annual costs incurred by complying limit. with the initial obligations of the Digital Economy Act, it is estimated that the increased cost to consumers Television: Children would have a relatively small but permanent effect of reducing demand for broadband connection by between Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 10,000-40,000. Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made Background information and supporting evidence of the number of children with a television in their for this estimate can be found at bedroom. [40844] http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100511084737/ http:/interactive.bis.gov.uk/digitalbritain/wp-content/uploads/ Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State has made no 2010/04/Digital-Economy-Act-IAs-final.pdf estimate. 801W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 802W

DEFENCE Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether staff at the Defence Medical Services Armed Forces: Blood establishment have carried out any studies into the use of pathogen reduction technology for use on blood products to treat wounded armed services personnel; Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and what representations he has received on this issue. what recent steps he has taken to ensure the safety and [40696] security of blood supplies to members of the armed forces; and if he will make a statement. [40489] Mr Robathan: On the basis of the work conducted in 2009 by the Advisory Committee on the Safety of Mr Robathan: All the blood components received Blood, Tissues and Organs (SaBTO, a UK independent from NHS Blood and Transplant (NHSBT) are provided non-departmental public body run by the Department under a service level agreement, and as such, the blood of Health) into the reduction of risk of bacterial supplied to members of the armed forces will be as safe contamination of platelets, the Defence Medical Services as that given to any other NHS patient. We are not have not conducted any studies into the use of pathogen aware of any new recent steps that have been taken with reduction technology on blood products for the treatment regards to blood safety. of injured service personnel. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Astute Class Submarines how many soldiers received a blood transfusion as part of their medical care in the last 12 months for which Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for figures are available. [40490] Defence on what date long-lead items for the Astute-class submarines, including reactors, have been purchased or Mr Robathan: Members of the armed forces receive ordered to date. [40529] treatment in a number of NHS hospitals in the UK, as well as in hospitals abroad. This information is not held Dr Fox: The requirement for, and timing of, ordering centrally and it would be impossible to establish how long lead items varies between submarine class. many people have received a blood transfusion as part The dates that orders were placed for long lead items of their medical care, without interrogating individuals’ including reactors for the Astute Class submarines are medical records. This would entail gaining permission shown in the following table: to access medically confidential information on an individual basis and could be obtained only at Long lead items Dates ordered disproportionate cost. Boat 1-3 March 1997 Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Boat 4 December 2003, April 2004, what consideration he has given to the use of pathogen April 2005, March 2007 reduction technology in healthcare provision for armed Boat 5 April 2005, January 2008, forces personnel; and if he will make a statement. September 2008 Boat 6 August 2006, March 2010 [40694] Defence: Procurement Mr Robathan: In common with all new medical techniques and technologies, the Defence Medical Services will consider the merits of pathogen reduction technology Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for as appropriate. New technology will be subject to national Defence (1) what estimate he has made of the value of best practice and guidance, and only introduced once each industrial participation contract involving foreign licensed and demonstrated to be safe and effective. The firms in each of the last 25 years; [40318] Advisory Group on military medicine will advise the (2) if he will estimate the value of industrial surgeon general on the safety and efficacy of new participation by foreign firms in each region of the UK approaches to patient management. in each of the last 25 years; [40319]

Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) does whether (a) the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine not have industrial participation (IP) contracts. It is the and (b) the Ministry of Defence Hospital Units have MOD’s policy to invite IP proposals from foreign bidders considered the use of pathogen reduction technology when they are bidding for MOD contracts. However, IP for use on blood products; and if he will make a proposals are not considered as part of the evaluation statement. [40695] of a tender, either at selection or award. Individual cases of IP within contracts are not readily available, Mr Robathan: The Royal Centre for Defence Medicine could only be given at disproportionate cost and would and the Ministry of Defence Hospital Units are essentially be commercially sensitive. However, since 1987 the administrative units for the management of Defence cumulative value of IP arrangements is around £10 billion. Medical Services (DMS) personnel who work within This can be broken down as follows: the host NHS Trusts and are not responsible for the delivery of clinical care. The care given at each of these Value (£ million) sites, including consideration of pathogen reduction 1987 7 technology, is delivered in accordance with the clinical 1989 10 policies, guidelines and governance of the relevant NHS 1992 187 Trust. 803W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 804W

Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure Value (£ million)

1994 1,415 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for 1995 1,370 Defence pursuant to the reply to the hon. Member for 1996 1,635 East Lothian of 13 January 2011, Official Report, columns 1997 268 747-48W,on ex-servicemen: radiation exposure, on what 1998 43 basis the independent contractor was selected; what the 1999 427 name of the contractor is; what the monetary value of 2000 860 the contract is; on what date the report on health audit 2001 57 is due for delivery; and whether the contract was advertised 2002 624 for competitive tender. [40667] 2003 215 2005 341 Mr Robathan: Following informal contacts and meetings 2006 206 with a number of academic departments in 2009 and 2007 1,964 discussions with a range of stakeholders, including the 2008 124 British Nuclear Test Veterans Association, the Ministry 2009 227 of Defence (MOD) identified an option to conduct an 2010 398 independent health needs audit in February 2010. Total 10,378 The MOD statement of requirement detailed the need for external assistance to provide an assessment of the health needs of British nuclear test veterans and in Departmental Travel particular to look at: their experience and impact of major or significant illness; their experiences of NHS and social care services, including Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for access to, and availability of services and the service itself; Defence how much his Department spent on travel in common issues and themes from veterans’ experiences, outcomes each month since April 2010. [32382] and recommendations to improve health and care services for nuclear test veterans. Mr Robathan [holding answer 10 January 2011]: Stakeholders expressed a strong desire to undertake a Ministry of Defence monthly expenditure on travel study quickly. Oxford Healthcare Associates (now known since April 2010 has been as follows: as Miles and Green Associates) were identified as having the relevant levels of expertise and experience to undertake Expenditure (£ million) a study of this nature.

April 2010 16.0 Following a business case setting out procurement May 2010 14.5 options, the intention to place a single source contract June 2010 15.2 was advertised in the Defence Contracts Bulletin in 16 July 2010 and the contract was formally let on July 2010 17.2 26 August 2010. August 2010 13.9 September 2010 13.0 The value of the contract is £75,000 excluding VAT. October 2010 14.8 Miles and Green are due to present their findings in the November 2010 14.2 summer. December 2010 14.9 Hotels These figures include, for both service and civilian staff, the cost of travel and accommodation booked Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for centrally, the reimbursement of expenses incurred when Defence what the cost to his Department was of overnight using their own vehicle for duty journeys, most rail fares accommodation in (a) April 2010 and (b) each subsequent not booked centrally and some car hire costs. The month. [31696] figures also include expenses reimbursed to civilian staff for overnight accommodation, subsistence, taxi, bus Mr Robathan [holding answer 20 December 2010]: and underground fares, parking charges and road tolls, Ministry of Defence expenditure on overnight and most of their air fares not booked centrally. Costs accommodation since April 2010 has been as follows: of the MOD’s white fleet are not included as they are not recorded on a monthly basis; however, we estimate Expenditure (£ million) that white fleet contract and fuel costs averaged just under £4 million a month between April and September April 2010 3.2 2010. The figures also do not include all travel and May 2010 3.3 subsistence costs reimbursed to service personnel, but June 2010 3.8 we are currently improving the accessibility of these in July 2010 3.9 the interests of transparency. August 2010 3.3 By whatever means staff travel, they must do so in a September 2010 2.6 way that is the most economical in both money and October 2010 3.6 official time. November 2010 3.8 December 2010 3.4 I apologise for the delay in answering this question. 805W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 806W

These figures include accommodation costs paid centrally date; and with which companies such contracts have for both service and civilian staff and subsistence been agreed. [40542] costs reimbursed to civilian staff for hotel and mess accommodation and for staying with family or friends Dr Fox: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given for the purpose of undertaking official duty commitments. by the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and The figures do not include travel and subsistence costs Technology, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid reimbursed to service personnel but we are currently Worcestershire (Peter Luff), on 29 November 2010, improving the accessibility of these in the interests of Official Report, column 579W, to the hon. Member for transparency. Cambridge (Dr Huppert). I apologise for the delay in answering this question. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Nuclear Submarines Defence how much his Department has allocated to spend on the Trident replacement programme in each year between 2010-11 and 2015-16. [40543] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what type of reactor his Department plans to Dr Fox: Approximately £330 million was allocated to order for the Trident replacement submarines. [40545] the programme to replace the Vanguard submarine for the financial year 2010-11. This includes expenditure on Dr Fox: It is planned that the Vanguard replacement the Common Missile Compartment and on nuclear submarine will be powered by a pressurised water reactor, propulsion. The Initial Gate Business Case for the as was the case with previous classes. The precise assessment phase of the programme to replace the configuration of the reactor is under consideration as Trident submarines is currently being reviewed. part of the Initial Gate decision. However, we do not routinely publish figures for anticipated annual project expenditure, as to do so Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for would prejudice commercial interests. Moreover, in line Defence whether steel for the substantial construction with standard procedures, the programme will be subject of the hull structure of the first boat of the Trident to the normal Ministry of Defence annual planning replacement programme will be made as a long-lead round process. purchase prior to main gate. [40547] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Fox: Yes. The specialist high strength steel needed Defence whether he plans to seek Parliamentary approval for the hull structure for the first boat is included as a for long-lead orders prior to the Trident replacement long-lead item in the Initial Gate Business Case for the main gate decision. [40549] programme. This is due to the length of time needed for the mill run, that means that the order must be placed Dr Fox: I have no such plans. It is not normal practice prior to Main Gate in order not to put at risk the to seek parliamentary approval for such matters. The in-service date. Initial Gate approval is subject to the normal Ministry of Defence and Treasury process for category A Nuclear Weapons programmes.

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Trident Missiles Defence from which work streams the £750 million of savings to the public purse arising from the Trident Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for replacement programme identified in the Strategic Defence (1) whether he had discussions with his US Defence and Security Review will be made. [40531] counterpart prior to the sharing of information with the Russian Federation on UK-designated Trident D5 Dr Fox: The Strategic Defence and Security Review missiles; [40538] identified a total of £1.2 billion of savings and £2 billion (2) whether he has made an assessment of the of deferrals over the next 10 years. These savings are potential effects of the sharing of information between attributable to submarine production, the nuclear warhead, the US and Russia on UK-designated Trident D5 supporting infrastructure and improved efficiency at missiles on the operational status of the UK’s Trident the Atomic Weapons Establishment. nuclear weapon system. [40539] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Fox: Officials from the Ministry of Defence have Defence by what date he expects it will be necessary to regular discussions with US authorities on a range of reach a decision on the replacement or refurbishing of Defence issues. Where discussions relate to the D5 the UK nuclear warhead. [40540] Trident missiles they take place mainly under the auspices of the 1963 Polaris Sales Agreement (as amended for Dr Fox: As the Prime Minister informed the House Trident). on 19 October 2010, Official Report, columns 797-826, the strategic defence and security review announced the The US holds a stockpile of Trident D5 missiles from deferral of the decision to replace or refurbish the UK which the UK has purchased title to a number but these nuclear warhead until the next Parliament. are unspecified in the stockpile. There are therefore no UK-designated missiles. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Under the terms of the bilateral new strategic arms Defence what contracts his Department has agreed for reduction treaty (New START) limited information is work on the Trident replacement concept phase to shared between the US and Russia. Procedures for 807W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 808W transferring information have been in place since the Departmental Public Expenditure 1991 START treaty and have been carried forward and updated for New START. Such information exchange Mr McFadden: To ask the Secretary of State for between the US and Russia will have no detrimental Work and Pensions how much his Department has effect on the operational status of the independent UK spent on furniture since May 2010. [38534] deterrent. Chris Grayling: Since May 2010 the Department spent a total of £3.6 million on furniture; £3.3 million of which was supplied for a programme of works across WORK AND PENSIONS the Jobcentre Plus network in response to the economic downturn. Atos Origin The Department signed a 20 year PFI contract with Telereal Trillium in 1998 for the provision of fully fitted and serviced accommodation for which the Department Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work pays an all inclusive unitary charge. The £3.6 million and Pensions what the cost to his Department is of was for furniture not included within the contract price. meeting its contractual obligations to Atos Origin in each year of that contract. [37700] The total spend on furniture in 2009-10 was £8 million of which £7.4 million was in response to the economic downturn. The figure is net of a £3.5 million discount, Chris Grayling: The total cost of the DWP Medical which was negotiated with Telereal Trillium in delivering Services contract with Atos Healthcare, a division of the programme of works in response to the economic Atos Origin, is in the region of £100 million per annum. downturn. This estimate covers the total number of examinations undertaken across all benefits and also includes relating The scope of the services provided by Telereal Trillium to written and verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, include the provision of all accommodation in over administrative costs, investment in new technology and 1,000 buildings and services, which includes building other service improvements. maintenance, life cycle works, energy/utilities management and environment, internal reorganisation, porterage, Since the commencement of the current contract, the security, health and safety, furniture and equipment, spend with Atos Healthcare is shown in the following catering/security facilities and equipment, catering, waste table. management, internal and external cleaning, room booking service, and landscape maintenance. £ million All the figures include the costs of moving and installing 1 September 2005 to March 2006 73.3 furniture and other items, such as electrical and white 2006-07 60.2 goods. These costs can be disaggregated only at 2007-08 70.2 disproportionate cost. 2008-09 111.8 2009-10 99.1 Dichloromethane

The cost incurred in 2010-11 to 30 November 2010 Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work was £69.6 million. and Pensions (1) what assessment has been made of the risks to human health and safety from the use of Children: Maintenance products containing dichloromethane for (a) industrial or manufacturing purposes and (b) non- industrial and domestic purposes; and if he will make a Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for statement; [40217] Work and Pensions what plans he has to extend recognition of shared care parenting in the arrangement for the (2) whether his Department is considering the merits payment of child maintenance. [39771] of seeking a derogation from EU restrictions on the use of the chemical dichloromethane; and if he will make a statement. [40580] Maria Miller: The Government have recently published a consultation document—“Strengthening families, Chris Grayling: Dichloromethane is a widely-used promoting parental responsibility: the future of child solvent, which can have narcotic effects at high maintenance”; concentrations. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/strengthening-families.pdf Between 1989 and 2007, 18 deaths and 56 non-fatal The Government want to encourage parents to reach injuries relating to use of paint strippers containing this family-based arrangements for child maintenance which solvent were registered across Europe. There is now an will facilitate co-parenting and ongoing involvement of EU-wide ban under the REACH regulation on the both parents in their children’s lives. If parents can placing on the market of paint strippers containing this come to an agreement about shared care we would hope substance for consumers or untrained professionals which that they could also make a family-based arrangement came into effect from 6 December 2010. suitable to both parties. In the UK the rate of injury from the use of these The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission paint strippers is very low. The history of accidents (the Commission) is currently reviewing shared care involving this substance shows only five fatal accidents arrangements as it develops plans to move to the new in 18 years, and an average of just over one other injury child maintenance system in 2012. a year. Recognising that these paint strippers can be 809W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 810W used safely, and their importance for UK businesses, the Maria Miller: We are currently consulting on the Government intend to take advantage of a derogation reform of disability living allowance with the key proposal permitted in the ban to allow for the continued sale and of a new benefit, to be known as personal independence use of these paint strippers for trained professionals. payment, which will be introduced from 2013. The Department has made no such estimate because disability Disability Living Allowance living allowance and its successor are designed to recognise the extra costs associated with disability and are not based on diagnoses or condition. Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will assess the merits of extending the higher rate disability living allowance Employment: Asylum component to people in employment aged 65 and over. [40313] Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what measures he is taking to increase the Maria Miller: The Government have no plans to rate of employment of refugees; [41096] extend the higher rate mobility component of disability (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that the Work living allowance to people in employment aged 65 and programme’s prime contractors in each lot provide over. appropriate support to refugee customers; [41097] It is normal for pension and benefit schemes to (3) what steps he is taking to ensure that refugees on contain different provisions for people at different stages active benefits receive appropriate pre-employment of their lives. Disability living allowance and its proposed support; [41098] replacement—personal independence payment—are intended to help people who have the financial disadvantage (4) whether he has assessed the effect on the employment of being disabled early, or relatively early, in life and prospects of refugee customers of excluding refugees have had less opportunity to work, earn and save. from the categories of customer eligible for early access onto the Work programme at the discretion of Jobcentre There is a wide range of support available to disabled Plus; [41164] people over the age of 65 including state pension, pension credit and attendance allowance. In addition, (5) for what reason refugees are not included in the Access to Work scheme is also available to those aged 65 categories of customer eligible for early access onto the and over and can pay towards the equipment needed at Work programme at the discretion of Jobcentre Plus work, adapting premises to meet needs, a support worker, listed in the invitation to tender for the Work and it can also pay towards the cost of getting to work programme; [41165] for people who cannot use public transport. (6) what the employment outcomes were for refugee customers who gained early access onto Flexible New Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Deal and New Deal programmes in 2008 and 2009; and Pensions how many residents of Rossendale and [41166] Darwen constituency receive disability living allowance; (7) how many refugee customers gained early access and what the cost to the public purse was of such onto Flexible New Deal and New Deal programmes payments in the last 12 months. [40421] between 2008 and 2010; [41167] (8) what consideration he gave to continuing the Maria Miller: The latest available 12 months is the eligibility of refugee customers for early access when 2009-10 financial year. This information is shown in the the Work programme starts. [41168] following table. Great Britain, 2009/10—Rossendale and Darwen Chris Grayling: The Government are radically reforming Number/£ million the welfare to work system to provide an integrated Caseload (thousand) 6.3 programme of personalised help for people who are out Expenditure (£ million) 22.8 of work. The support package includes enhancement of Source: the provision offered by Jobcentre Plus, an improved DWP statistical and accounting data skills offer through the Get Britain Working measures and tailored support via the Work programme. This Parliamentary constituency expenditure data can be flexible system will offer the right support at the right found at the following URL: time to all people on benefits, including refugees. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/pc_expenditure.xls For the majority of refugees the flexible, personalised Further benefit expenditure data can be found at the services that Jobcentre Plus will offer, alongside the Get following URL: Britain Working measures, will meet their needs. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/ For those with significant disadvantages, early entry index.php?page=expenditure to the Work programme may be appropriate. Advisers will have the discretion to refer more vulnerable customers Disability Living Allowance: Cancer to the Work programme where it is clear that they would benefit from the type of assistance provided. Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for The term refugee covers a broad spectrum of individuals Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the with a wide range of differing needs. I therefore do not number of people with cancer who are eligible for believe it would be appropriate to refer all refugees to disability living allowance who will be ineligible for the the Work programme more quickly than other people personal independence payment. [39125] receiving benefit. 811W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 812W

We have asked bidders for the Work programme Chris Grayling: There have been no changes to the contracts, without being prescriptive, to develop innovative operation of the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and models of support. These must be designed to be flexible Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995 (RIDDOR) and specifically tailored to meet the needs of individual as a result of the spending review. customers and the local area. As part of the evaluation The proposed change, about which HSE is currently of process, the Department will consider bidders’ ability consulting, was recommended in the report by Lord to meet the diverse needs of different customers and Young,“Common Sense, Common Safety”. This report customer groups. seeks to focus regulations where they are needed most I am unable to provide the statistical information to create a new system that is proportionate and not requested in relation to the position of refugees under bureaucratic. Actions to implement the recommendations previous programmes such as New Deal and Flexible are being taken forward across Government in line with New Deal. This information was not systematically the timetable set out in his report. collected at the time and cannot be obtained retrospectively. Incidents reported under the regulations are selected for investigation using HSE’s published RIDDOR incident Housing Benefit selection criteria. There has been no change to these criteria although HSE is considering the modalities for Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for notification. Work and Pensions pursuant to the contribution of the Enforcement action in the event of an employer or Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State of 24 January other duty holder failing to report a death, injury, 2011, Official Report, House of Lords, column 778, on dangerous occurrence or case of an occupational disease the Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2010, is taken in accordance with its enforcement policy statement when he expects to commission the independent review (EPS). Again there has been no change to this. into housing benefit; whom he expects to undertake the review; what method he plans to use to identify the Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work review team; when he expects the review to report; and and Pensions what consultation he has undertaken on if he will make a statement. [39304] changes to the Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations 1995. [39647] Steve Webb: The Department is in the process of a procurement exercise with leading research organisations Chris Grayling: A formal, statutory consultation was for the evaluation and working on the final specification launched by HSE on 31 January 2011 seeking views on of the project. the proposed amendment to regulation 3(2) of the We will work to the Government Social Research Reporting of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Code to commission a team of independent, external Regulations 1995 (RIDDOR). The consultation closes researchers who will undertake the review and fieldwork on 9 May 2011. A copy of the consultation document elements of the project by early April. can be viewed at The Department anticipates emerging findings of the http://www.hse.gov.uk/consult/condocs/cd233.htm implementation of the new measures will be available by the spring of 2012. Interim findings will be available Jobcentres by the summer of 2012. Draft final findings will be available by the winter of 2012-13. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when he next plans to visit the jobcentre Housing Benefit: Greater London which serves Thirsk, Malton and Filey constituency; and if he will make a statement. [39836] Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many private rented homes in Chris Grayling: Since May 2010, the Department’s the (a) City of London, (b) London borough of Camden ministerial team has visited numerous constituencies and (c) London borough of Brent he estimates will be and jobcentres across the UK. affordable to housing benefit recipients following the implementation of his reforms to housing benefit. The Department’s ministerial team currently have no [38420] plans to visit the Thirsk Malton and Filey constituency, however, should any Ministers do so, they will look to Steve Webb: The number of affordable properties will visit the jobcentre there. depend upon the total number of properties available to rent in each area, for which forecasts are not available, Lone Parents: Earnings and the rent-setting decisions of landlords. Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Injuries, Disease and Dangerous Occurrences Work and Pensions what consideration he has given to Regulations 1995 the merits of introducing an increased earnings disregard for lone parents prior to implementation of Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Work other aspects of his universal credit proposals. [39752] and Pensions what assessment he has made of the effects of reductions in funding to the Health and Chris Grayling: The increased earnings disregards are Safety Executive on the effective operation of the Reporting an intrinsic part of the new universal credit and designed, of Injuries, Disease and Dangerous Occurrences alongside a single taper, to improve the incentives to Regulations 1995. [39646] enter work. 813W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 814W

Until the universal credit is introduced lone parents sets would come under the category ‘to buy furniture or will greatly benefit from the comprehensive, personalised household equipment’. Data are not available on the support provided by Jobcentre Plus and the new Work number of awards for each category. programme which will provide a flexible, personalised The number of crisis loans or community care grants approach to helping people back into work, and will initially awarded for the purpose of buying television aim to continue supporting people after they have entered sets over the value of (i) £500 or (ii) £1,000 in (A) City work. of Chester constituency or (B) Great Britain in each of the financial years 2005-06 to 2009-10 was extremely Pensions: Females low, being recorded as nil or negligible. Notes: Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. The information provided is management information. Our Work and Pensions if he will estimate the number of preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/ women in Newport East constituency who will be National Statistics but in this case we only have management affected by the change in timetable for the equalisation information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent of the state pension age. [41229] as Official/National statistics and there are some issues with the data, for example, the information given does not include applications Steve Webb: This information is not available. which were processed clerically and had not been entered on to the social fund computer system by the end of the relevant On the basis of the mid-2009 ONS population estimates, financial year. we estimate that around 1,500 women in the Newport 2. Data are available for initial awards only. No information is local authority area could be affected by the change in available on the number of awards of the type described which the equalisation of the state pension age. were made after review. 3. Exact numbers have not been given for data protection reasons. Poverty: Families ‘Nil or negligible’ means less than five. Source: Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Department for Work and Pensions Social Fund Policy, Budget Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with and Management Information System. service users to inform the development of universal credit proposals; and to what extent those proposals Social Security Benefits: Expenditure take into account the needs of low-income families. [39758] Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much was spent on each type of Chris Grayling: The Department is committed to welfare and benefits payment to people with an income involving customers at every stage of the design and of (a) £6,475 to £7,475, (b) £7,476 to £8,475, (c) delivery of universal credit. We have an ongoing programme £8,476 to £9,475 and (d) £9,476 to £10,000 on each of of customer insight work and have already held a the last five years; and if he will make a statement. number of focus groups with a broad range of benefit [39051] and tax credit customers (who will be the service users of universal credit), including low-income families. Maria Miller: Information is not available for all The ongoing programme of user-centred design activity, welfare and benefits by income level. The following which is being conducted jointly with customers, means table shows the available data on expenditure on benefits that the Department will continue to ensure that the in payment to people in households with gross unequivalised delivery of universal credit is designed around specific annual incomes within the bands requested. Estimates customer needs. are derived from the Family Resources Survey and are The research findings have not been published, as the based on a three year average to help take account of analysis is not yet complete. They are also covered by small sample sizes in certain income bands and statistical the policy advice exemption from publication. variation across the years. Use of survey data means that information is only available for the benefits shown. Social Fund: City of Chester Table 1: Benefit expenditure (in millions) by unequivalised annual gross income band, United Kingdom, 2004-05 to 2006-07 Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for Total £6,476 £7,476 £8,476 £9,476 (three Work and Pensions how many Social Fund (a) budgeting to to to to year loans, (b) crisis loans and (c) community care grants Benefit £7,475 £8,475 £9,475 £10,000 average) for the purpose of buying television sets over the value of (i) £500 and (ii) £1,000 there were in (A) City of Disability 100 150 200 150 9,361 Chester constituency and (B) the UK in each of the last living allowance five years. [40219] Child 50 50 100 50 9,840 benefit Steve Webb: Firstly, part of the question refers to State 1,800 2,050 2,650 1,650 55,730 figures for the whole of the UK—information regarding retirement the discretionary social fund for Northern Ireland is a pension matter for the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Pension 300 300 500 300 6,975 my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire credit (Mr Paterson). Attendance 50 50 100 100 4,253 In the case of budgeting loans, applicants are asked allowance to tick which of seven categories they need help for, but Incapacity 250 300 300 100 7,205 benefit are not asked to specify the items they require. Television 815W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 816W

Table 1: Benefit expenditure (in millions) by unequivalised annual Table 3: Benefit expenditure (in millions) by unequivalised annual gross income band, United Kingdom, 2004-05 to 2006-07 gross income band, United Kingdom, 2006-07 to 2008-09 Total Total £6,476 £7,476 £8,476 £9,476 (three £6,476 £7,476 £8,476 £9,476 (three to to to to year to to to to year Benefit £7,475 £8,475 £9,475 £10,000 average) Benefit £7,475 £8,475 £9,475 £10,000 average)

Income 250 350 450 300 10,165 Council tax 200 250 250 150 4,179 support benefit Winter fuel 100 100 100 50 2,159 Housing 550 650 850 600 16,319 payments benefit Council tax 250 250 300 200 4,081 Jobseekers 100 100 50 50 2,574 benefit allowance Housing 600 800 1,200 750 15,179 Notes: benefit 1. Estimates are derived from the Family Resources Survey and are based on a three year average to help take account of small sample Jobseekers 100 100 50 50 2,453 sizes in certain income bands and statistical variation across the years. allowance 2. All amounts are in 2008-09 prices. Information covers Great Table 2: Benefit expenditure (in millions) by unequivalised annual Britain only. gross income band, United Kingdom, 2005-06 to 2007-08 3. Shares of benefit expenditure by income band according to the Family Resources Survey have been applied to administrative data to Total derive a split by income band. Administrative data totals are available £6,476 £7,476 £8,476 £9,476 (three to the nearest million pounds, while information based on survey data to to to to year is presented rounded to the nearest £50 million. Benefit £7,475 £8,475 £9,475 £10,000 average) 4. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions Disability 100 150 200 100 9,745 publication ‘Households Below Average Income’ series. Note, however, living that unlike most incomes used in the ‘Households Below Average allowance Income’ publication, incomes here are gross and unequivalised. Child 50 50 50 50 10,176 5. The Family Resources Survey is known to undercount receipt of benefit certain benefits. This methodology assumes that this undercount is State 1,550 1,950 2,350 1,550 57,363 spread proportionally across income bands. For example, if 30% of retirement expenditure is in a certain income band, this assumes 30% of any pension undercount is also in that income band. This assumption may not be Pension 350 250 400 300 7,317 justified here given the relationship between overall income and credit reporting of benefit income. 6. Unequivalised gross incomes have been rounded to the nearest Attendance 50 50 100 50 4,413 pound sterling in order to assign all incomes to bands. allowance Incapacity 250 300 250 100 7,015 The relatively small proportion of benefit expenditure benefit directed at the low income bands specified is mainly due Income 250 300 350 300 9,509 to three reasons; firstly, there is a low proportion of the support population overall with gross unequivalised annual incomes Winter fuel 100 100 100 50 2,141 less than £10,000; secondly, a major factor causing very payments low incomes is non take-up of benefits and tax credits; Council tax 250 250 250 200 4,142 and thirdly, evidence suggests that the Family Resources benefit Survey has an undercount in terms of recording benefit Housing 550 700 1,000 750 15,689 receipt compared to administrative totals. benefit Jobseekers 100 100 50 50 2,455 allowance Work Capability Assessment: Carmarthen

Table 3: Benefit expenditure (in millions) by unequivalised annual gross income band, United Kingdom, 2006-07 to 2008-09 Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Total and Pensions (1) how many and what proportion of £6,476 £7,476 £8,476 £9,476 (three claimants of employment and support allowance in to to to to year Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire constituency Benefit £7,475 £8,475 £9,475 £10,000 average) have been found capable of work as a result of a work Disability 50 150 200 100 10,114 capability assessment since May 2005; [34378] living (2) what proportion of residents of Carmarthen allowance West and South Pembrokeshire constituency who Child 50 50 50 50 10,674 appealed against work capability assessments were benefit successful since May 2005; [34379] State 1,300 1,850 2,050 1,300 59,168 retirement (3) how many appeals against the outcomes of work pension capability assessments were made in Carmarthen West Pension 250 300 350 250 7,574 and South Pembrokeshire constituency in each of the credit last five years; and how many such appeals were Attendance 50 50 100 50 4,563 successful. [34380] allowance Incapacity 200 250 200 150 6,787 benefit Chris Grayling: Since the above questions all relate to Income 200 300 300 200 9,063 the work capability assessment (WCA) for employment support and support allowance (ESA) in the same geographical Winter fuel 50 100 100 50 2,320 areas, a single response addressing all the questions is payments given as follows. 817W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 818W

ESA was introduced in October 2008. Information Mr Lidington: The British flag has precedence. In all on WCAs held, their outcomes and subsequent appeals cases where it is deployed, the European flag is displayed is not available at the constituency level. Figures have alongside, not instead of, the British Diplomatic, Consular therefore been provided for the Carmarthenshire and or (in Commonwealth countries) Union flag. Our Pembrokeshire local authority (LA) areas, which cover Representation to the EU in Brussels displays the European the Carmarthen West and Pembrokeshire constituency. flag at all times, as do all our EU partners on their The number of fit for work decisions given at initial buildings. WCA in Carmarthenshire LA between October 2008 On Europe day (9 May), posts in EU and EU-applicant and February 2010, the latest data available, is 1,540 or countries display the European flag. Other posts may 42% of all new ESA claims received. In Pembrokeshire also display the European flag on Europe day where LA there were 680 fit for work decisions, representing this is normal local practice. 36% of all new ESA claims received in the same period. Of claims received between October 2008 and August Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 in Carmarthenshire, that were found fit for work Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the at initial WCA, 430 have appealed the WCA decision provisions of any EU treaty govern the flying of EU and had their appeal heard by July 2010. Of these flags from Government buildings overseas; and if he appeals 160 or 38% found in favour of the appellant. will make a statement. [40299] For Pembrokeshire, there have been 140 appeals, of which 20 or 15% found in favour of the appellant. Mr Lidington: There is no specific legal base in either The above data are taken from benefit claims data the treaty on European Union or the treaty on the held by the Department for Work and Pensions, functional functioning of the European Union which governs the assessment data sourced from Atos Healthcare and flying of an EU flag from Government buildings overseas. appeals data sourced from the Tribunals Service. The UK’s representation to the EU in Brussels displays the European flag at all times, as do all our EU partners All case load figures have been rounded to the nearest on their buildings. On Europe day (9 May), posts in EU 10 and percentages to the nearest percentage point. and EU-applicant countries display the European flag. Other posts may also display the European flag on Europe day where this is normal local practice. In all FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE cases, the European flag is displayed alongside, not instead of, the British Diplomatic, Consular or (in Burundi: Politics and Government Commonwealth countries) Union flag, with the British flag having precedence. Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent steps his Department has taken to support post-conflict Egypt: Elections reconstruction in Burundi, with particular reference to providing livelihoods for returning reintegrated refugees. [41029] Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will place Alistair Burt: The UK has provided strong political in the Library a copy of each unclassified item of and programmatic support to post-conflict reconstruction briefing given to Ministers on the outcome of the 2010 and the return of refugees in Burundi since the end of parliamentary elections in Egypt. [40131] the civil war in 2003. Mr Hague: Ministers received no briefing at unclassified The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has worked level following the outcome of the 2010 parliamentary closely with the international community to support elections in Egypt. Burundi in its return to stability.Through regular discussions in the UN Security Council, in particular around the During parliamentary elections in Egypt in November regular renewal of the mandate of the UN mission in and December, domestic observers, civil society Burundi, and through active participation in the Peace organisations and election participants raised serious Building Commission, the UK has promoted the protection concerns about arrangements in the run-up to and of the human rights of vulnerable citizens, including during the elections. These included refusal of access returnees, and emphasised the importance of instituting for international monitors, lack of access in many instances an effective transitional justice mechanism. Our offices for independent national monitors and candidate in Burundi and our ambassador based in Kigali have representatives to key parts of the voting and counting also encouraged the Government of Burundi to take process and reports of attempts to limit media comment the steps that we believe are essential in enabling Burundi on the elections. In a number of cases, reported voting to complete its post-conflict recovery. The Anglican irregularities and the harassment and arrest of opposition Archbishop of Burundi recently praised the support of candidates and their supporters amounted to serious the British Government for their engagement. interference in the electoral process. This called into question the credibility of some of the results. The Departmental Flags majority of the opposition parties and candidates refused to participate in the second round of elections, citing Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for these issues. We strongly encouraged the Egyptian Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what guidance his authorities to address those concerns. After the elections Department issues on flying the EU flag from (a) the UK and EU highlighted in public and in private embassies, (b) high commissions and (c) other irregularities in the electoral process including the absence Government buildings overseas. [40298] of independent monitors and limits to press freedom. 819W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 820W

The Government worked to support free and fair This expenditure was spent on a wide range of activities parliamentary elections in 2010. We called on the Egyptian designed to establish and cultivate contacts and included Government to amend legislation to ensure full meetings and events hosted for political and business compatibility with Egypt’s international obligations in delegations (including those in support of UK Trade this regard and to permit international observers to and Industry) abroad, to promote and defend wider visit Egypt during the election periods. British interests. All expenditure on official hospitality The EU also supported a coalition of Egyptian civil is incurred in accordance with the principles of Managing society organisations to monitor the presidential and Public Money and the Treasury handbook on Regularity, parliamentary elections. These non-governmental Propriety and Value for Money. organisations are also working to raise Egyptian voter awareness towards their political rights, train observers European Union Bill to be able effectively to monitor the elections, and to improve media coverage of the electoral campaigns Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State along internationally recognised professional and ethical for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many standards. Our embassy is also supporting a number of meetings Ministers in his Department have had with smaller projects with Egyptian civil society to assist hon. Members on the European Union Bill. [40124] their capacity building for the electoral process. Egypt: Politics and Government Mr Hague: Ministers have met or otherwise engaged with a number of hon. Members from all political Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State parties, on a range of issues relating to the EU Bill both for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contact prior to introduction and during Parliament’s consideration his Department has had with representatives of the of the Bill. This is consistent with the normal course of Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt; and if he will make a business, and as the Bill proceeds through Parliament, statement. [40211] Ministers will continue to engage with hon. Members in this way. Mr Hague: As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made clear, we continue to press the Egyptian North Africa and Middle East: British Nationals Government to give opposition groups a real role in the Abroad reform process, through a genuinely broad-based dialogue. The Egyptian Government has begun that Dialogue and as part of it, has met the Muslim Brotherhood in Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Egypt who are an important part of Egypt’s national Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his political mosaic. Department is taking to facilitate the safety of UK nationals in (a) Tunisia, (b) Egypt, (c) Jordan and (d) Our embassy in Cairo maintains working level contacts Yemen. [40681] with many government and opposition figures, including the Muslim Brotherhood. We have been in contact with members of the Muslim Brotherhood in their positions Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office as elected representatives in the Egyptian parliament. (FCO) produces travel advice for all countries which is We will continue to have contacts with those members kept under constant review. This includes information of the Muslim Brotherhood who are, or who are likely for British nationals on travel safety and avoiding problem to be, part of the political dialogue process in Egypt situations. FCO travel advice is available on the FCO and who have agreed to respect and work within that website as well as the FCO British Abroad Facebook process. and Twitter sites. The FCO has a strong relationship with around 400 travel industry partners as part of the Embassies: Official Hospitality ongoing Know Before YouGo campaign to help British nationals stay safe and healthy abroad. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for During the recent crisis in Tunisia, in response to the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what expenditure deteriorating situation, the FCO changed the travel was incurred for hospitality for the British embassy or advice on 13 January 2011 to advise against all but high commission in (a) Albania, (b) Macedonia, (c) essential travel to Tunisia. The FCO worked closely Serbia, (d) Mozambique and (e) Angola in the with travel industry partners to enable British nationals financial year 2009-10; and if he will make a statement. wanting to leave the country in line with our travel [37954] advice to do so safely. The advice against all but essential travel to Tunisia was removed on 4 February 2011, in Alistair Burt: In the financial year 2009-10 our British line with an improving security situation on the ground. embassies and high commissions in the countries listed In response to the unrest in Egypt, the FCO advises as follows incurred the following expenditure for hospitality: against all but essential travel to Cairo, Alexandria, Suez and Luxor. In addition, the FCO organised two £ Percentage of post government-funded charter flights for British nationals expenditure wanting to leave Cairo, on 3 and 5 February 2011. The Albania 4,199 0.8 FCO sent additional staff to both Tunisia and Egypt to Macedonia 15,458 1.7 reinforce our embassies on the ground. We continue to Serbia 43,278 1.2 monitor the situation in Jordan and Yemen. There are Mozambique 11,002 1.1 currently no travel restrictions in place in Jordan. We Angola 22,827 1.6 currently advise against all but essential travel to Yemen, and against all travel to the Governorate of Sa’ada. 821W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 822W

Sudan: Referendums The Prime Minister: The Government have ensured that there is enough money in the system to maintain Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for the network of Sure Start children’s centres. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance he The Government are working with local authorities has provided to Sudan following the recent referendum to enable voluntary and community sector organisations in that country. [41030] with a track record of supporting families to become more involved with running and delivering services Alistair Burt: We are committed to providing long within children’s centres. term support to the people of north and south Sudan. The Localism Bill is introducing a right for local We are providing significant humanitarian and development organisations and local authority employees to challenge funding this year to improve governance, address insecurity local authorities to contract out services. Where services and provide basic services. The Government are currently are contracted out, community groups, including parents conducting a review of all our bilateral and multilateral and other local people, can apply to run children’s aid, including our humanitarian emergency response. centres, or services within centres, themselves.

Trade Promotion General Practitioners John Healey: To ask the Prime Minister what the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for attendance list was for the 10 Downing street event for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many times GP pathfinders held on 26 January 2011; and with the then Foreign Secretary led trade delegations to (a) which organisations each attendee is affiliated. [41439] Brazil, (b) Russia, (c) India and (d) China between May 2005 and May 2010. [38790] The Prime Minister: Information on official and charity receptions held at 10 Downing street is published by Alistair Burt: The then Foreign Secretary, the right means of an annual list as soon as it is ready at the end hon. Member for Derby South (Margaret Beckett), of the financial year. visited China in May 2007 accompanied by a trade delegation. TREASURY There were no Foreign Secretary-led trade delegations to Brazil, Russia or India between May 2005 and May Departmental Temporary Employment 2010. Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the (a) total salary cost and (b) average salary is Tunisia: Politics and Government of staff employed on fixed-term contracts in his Department. [34534] Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he first Justine Greening: There are currently 76 staff employed received reports of unrest in Tunisia. [40210] on fixed-term contracts in the Treasury. The total of the basic salaries of those staff is £2,684,506, an average of Mr Hague: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office £35,322 per fixed-term employee. Minister responsible for North Africa and I receive EU Law regular reports from both our embassies in the region and officials here in London. In the case of Tunisia, our Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer embassy in Tunis reported in December 2010 on the how many EU directives are pending transposition into political developments that formed the backdrop to domestic legislation by his Department; and what the unrest and thereafter provided regular updates as estimate he has made of the cost of each such the unrest escalated. transposition. [27502] Mr Hoban: The EU Directives pending transposition into domestic legislation as of 14 January 2011 on which HM Treasury officials were engaged are set out in PRIME MINISTER the following table. Estimates made by this Department of the gross transitional cost to the UK of their Children’s Centres transposition (i.e. including costs likely to be incurred by private industry) are shown. No separate estimates Chris Ruane: To ask the Prime Minister what assessment of HM Treasury’s administrative costs have been made. he has made of the role of Sure Start centres in developing These estimates do not take account of any benefits the big society. [40988] that might accrue to the UK.

Title of legislation Estimated costs

Electronic Money Directive 2009/110/EC Estimated cost to the UK of implementation is £1 million.

Capital Requirements 2010/76/EU Transposition has been partially completed; the estimated cost to the UK of implementation of the remaining parts is nil/marginal. 823W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 824W

Title of legislation Estimated costs

Directive 2010/78/EU amending Directives 98/26/EC, 2002/87/EC, 2003/6/ The estimated cost to the UK is nil/marginal (the only anticipated EC, 2003/41/EC, 2003/71/EC, 2004/39/EC, 2004/109/EC, 2005/60/EC, costs will be HM Treasury and Financial Services Authority staff 2006/48/EC, 2006/49/EC and 2009/65/EC in respect of the powers of the costs). European Supervisory Authority (European Banking Authority), the European Supervisory Authority (European Insurance and Occupational Pensions Authority) and the European Supervisory Authority (European Securities and Markets Authority) European Directive 2010/73/EU (amendments to EU Prospectus Directive) At pre-consultation stage: no estimate has yet been made of the total cost of implementation of the Amending Directive. Directive 2009/65/EC Recast Undertakings for Collective Investments in £50 million Transferable Securities (UCITS IV) Directive 2009 Directive 2009/128/EC on the taking-up and pursuit of the business of Implementing measures are not yet agreed and so no estimate is insurance and reinsurance (Solvency II) currently available.

Excise Duties: Fuels Arm’s length bodies such as NDPBs, executive agencies and trading funds (along with Government Departments) Mr Carswell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer follow the Government Financial Manual (FReM). whether he has assessed the merits of allowing county Accounts Directions for NDPBs are issued by their and metropolitan councils to collect and retain fuel Secretary of State in line with their legislation, normally duty locally; and if he will make a statement. [41288] with the agreement of the Treasury. HM Treasury issues the Accounts Directions for Departments and agencies Justine Greening: Fuel duty is collected directly from (under the Government Resources and Accounts Act fuel producers and therefore does not distinguish between 2000) and trading funds (under The Government Trading different fuel consumers or geographic areas. The Funds Act 1973). Chancellor keeps all taxes under review. The NAO carry out their audits based on the requirements of the Accounts Directions. James Murdoch

Paul Farrelly: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what meetings in an official capacity (a) he (b) Ministers Revenue and Customs: Debt Collection and (c) officials in his Department have had with (i) Rupert Murdoch, (ii) James Murdoch, (iii) Rebekah Wade, (iv) individuals representing News International, Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (v) individuals representing News Corporation and (vi) pursuant to the answer of 17 January 2011, Official individuals representing BSkyB since 4 November 2010. Report, column 578W, on tax collection: debts, for what [34116] reason HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has published in the Official Journal of the European Community an Justine Greening: Treasury Ministers and officials invitation to tender for debt collection services which have meetings with a wide range of organisations and stipulates that during the lifetime of the agreement individuals in the public and private sectors as part of clients may wish to expand on core services and use the process of policy development and implementation. supplementary services to ensure that debt recovery is The Treasury publishes a list of ministerial meetings maximised; and if he will assess the implications of this with external organisations, available at: notice for HMRC policy on referring cases to private http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm sector debt collection agencies for door-to-door visits. [40674] Public Bodies: Accountancy Mr Gauke: The advertisement to which the hon. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Chancellor of the Member refers relates to a procurement being conducted Exchequer what guidance his Department issues to (a) under the EU Open procedure in respect of a cross Ofcom and (b) other arm’s length bodies on ensuring government framework contract and was published in that their accounting practices are in line with those the OJEU on 28 January 2011. This can be viewed at: required of (i) Government departments and (ii) the http://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NQTICE:30619- National Audit Office. [40792] 2011:TEXT:EN:HTML&src=0

Danny Alexander [holding answer 14 February 2011]: As the advertisement makes clear the intention is Ofcom is a public corporation. The Secretary of State to procure, through a single framework contract, a for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Secretary of comprehensive range of debt collection agency services State for Culture, Media and Sport issue an Accounts that would then be available to HMRC, other Government Direction (to date administered by BIS, but which now Departments and public bodies to draw upon should passes to DCMS) that determines the accounting practice the need arise. to be followed. As a Public Corporation, Ofcom accounts The current procurement exercise does not alter the under the Companies Act and follows International position with regard to door-to-door visits by HMRC Financial Reporting Standards (IFRS) in line with the staff that I set out in my answer of 17 January 2011, Government sector. Official Report, column 578W. 825W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 826W

Taxation: Aviation INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Fair Trade Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what information his Department holds for benchmarking purposes on aviation taxation regimes in (a) EU member 12. Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for states and (b) G20 countries; and if he will make a International Development what steps his Department statement. [41260] is taking to promote fair trade in developing countries. [40982] Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Central Suffolk Mr O’Brien: The Department for International and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) on 22 November 2010, Development is committed to the relief of poverty, and Official Report, column 83W. one of the most cost effective means is to promote open markets through a fair and strong multilateral trading system. DFID’s support to fair and ethical trade aims Taxation: Financial Services to double the number of Fairtrade-certified producers to 2.2 million and improve working conditions in global supply chains. Mr Meacher: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will estimate the likely yield to the Exchequer of Poverty Reduction a tax on financial trades (a) internationally and (b) within the UK alone for clearing house automated 14. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State payments system transactions at a rate of (i) 1 per cent., for International Development what steps his Department (ii) 0.1 per cent., (iii) 0.01 per cent. and (iv) 0.001 per is taking to ensure that development aid contributes to cent. [39955] poverty reduction in the developing world. [40984]

Mr Hoban: I refer the right hon. Member to the Mr Duncan: DFID is highly regarded as a world answer I gave on 16 September 2010, Official Report, leader in international development. Our focus on poverty column 1254W, to the hon. Member for West Suffolk reduction is designed to make a serious impact on (Matthew Hancock). attaining the Millennium Development Goals. The Bilateral and Multilateral Aid Reviews focus rigorously on securing value for money and transparency in all that we do. VAT: Alcoholic Drinks Poverty Relief Targets Karen Lumley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether EU member states may operate differential 15. Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for value added tax rates on the sale of alcohol through the International Development what steps his Department on trade and the off trade. [40493] is taking to assist African nations in meeting world poverty relief targets by 2015. [40985] Mr Gauke: Under the principal VAT directive, member states are only permitted to apply one standard rate of Mr O’Brien: DFID is helping African nations to value added tax which must not be less than 15%. achieve the 2015 poverty relief targets through results-driven Member states may also apply two reduced rates of cost-effective investments to create wealth, strengthen value added tax, but they are not permitted to apply a governance and security, save and improve the lives of reduced rate to alcoholic beverages. women and girls, and tackle climate change. We are committed to working transparently, and maximising value for money and impact. Africa: Young People LEADER OF THE HOUSE Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent assessment he Departmental Carbon Emissions has made of the humanitarian situation of children and young people in (a) Sudan, (b) Uganda, (c) the Democratic Republic of Congo and (d) the Central Philip Davies: To ask the Leader of the House how African Republic; and what steps he is taking to support much his Department spent on carbon offsetting in such children and young people. [41320] each of the last three years; and to which companies payments for carbon offsetting were made in each such Mr Andrew Mitchell: In Sudan one in 10 children die year. [40519] before the age of five, net enrolment in primary education is around 54% and Southern Sudan alone has over one Sir George Young: The Office of the Leader of the million children out of school. In Uganda, children and House of Commons is an integral part of the Cabinet young people have lost opportunities for education as a Office. result of two decades of conflict, and now risk being I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given today by unable to access the services they need because of a very the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate high rate of population growth. In the Democratic Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Republic of Congo (DRC) one in five children die Battle (Gregory Barker). before their fifth birthday and more than four million 827W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 828W children are out of school. The Central African Republic The agreement has recently been revised and sets out (CAR) has been affected by civil war for a number of a clearer process for evoking the final imposition of years. The UN estimates that 838,000 children need article 96 measures, which apply when fundamental humanitarian assistance and one in 10 children suffers principles are breached. The UK continues to work from acute malnutrition. with other member states and the European Commission Investing in children and young people is of critical to look at how to strengthen the implementation of the importance for a country’s future development. DFID relevant articles. is currently reviewing its aid programme to ensure UK The European Development Fund (EDF) has a aid represents value for money for the UK taxpayer, governance incentive mechanism built into its aid while bringing real benefits to the world’s poor and programmes to ACP countries, through which it provides accelerating progress towards the Millennium Development additional funding for commitments to deliver governance Goals. The conclusions of the Bilateral Aid Review reforms. (BAR), Multilateral Aid Reviews (MAR) as well as the Humanitarian and Emergency Response Review (HERR) Departmental Carbon Emissions will determine our response to the challenges faced by children and young people in these countries. Conclusion Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for of the BAR and MAR will be announced in the coming International Development how much his Department weeks, while the HERR will report by the end of spent on carbon offsetting in each of the last three March. years; and to which companies payments for carbon offsetting were made in each such year. [40517] Burundi: Reconstruction Mr Duncan: The Department for International Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for Development (DFID) spent the following sums on carbon International Development what recent steps his offsetting in each of the last three years: Department has taken to support the post-conflict 2007-08: £179,818 reconstruction process in Burundi; and what support he 2008-09: £219,243 has provided for returning reintegrated refugees in that 2009-10: £303,140. country. [41133] During 2007-08 and 2008-09, the Government Carbon Offsetting Scheme was administered by the Department Mr O’Brien: In the last four years, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) for International Development (DFID) has provided and the sums were therefore transferred directly to £5.8 million for post-conflict reconstruction and support them. In 2009-10 the payment was made to EDF Trading for returning refugees and internally displaced persons Ltd. (IDPs) in Burundi. UK support has enabled the refurbishment and construction of 143 schools and the repair of more than 13,000 pieces of school equipment. This has benefitted 35,000 students, of whom over CABINET OFFICE 4,000 are returning refugees, and 850 teachers. 170,000 returning refugees have been successfully reintegrated Childbirth: Enfield and one million IDPs were provided with better access to basic health care and rural and urban water facilities. Nick de Bois: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet With less than 50,000 refugees now remaining outside Office how many births there were at (a) Chase Farm Burundi, DFID’s focus has moved from providing Hospital, Enfield, (b) North Middlesex Hospital, humanitarian and post-conflict reconstruction support, Enfield and (c) Barnet Hospital in each of the last five to increasing the Government of Burundi’s ability to years. [41608] deliver better health and education services. DFID’s future support to Burundi and the East Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Africa Community, of which Burundi is a member, will responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have be announced upon the conclusion of the bilateral aid asked the authority to reply. review in the coming weeks. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Cotonou Agreement have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many births there were at (a) Chase Farm Hospital, Enfield, (b) North Middlesex Hospital, Enfield and (c) Barnet Hospital in each of Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for the last five years. [41608] International Development what steps he is taking to Figures for live births by hospital have been compiled from ensure that development assistance provided by the birth registration data. Information on place of birth is provided European Union under the Cotonou Agreement is linked by the informant at registration rather than by the hospitals to good governance within the African, Caribbean and themselves. Pacific Group of States countries. [40689] Live births occurring in selected hospitals, 2005 to 2009 Communal Mr O’Brien: The Cotonou agreement, which governs establishment 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 relations between the EU and the 79 African, Caribbean and the Pacific countries (ACP), is based on ‘good Chase Farm 2,864 3,004 3,039 3,124 3,134 governance’ and the fundamental principles of democracy, Hospital, Enfield rule of law and human rights. The violation of any of North Middlesex 3,333 3,330 3,489 3,466 3,240 Hospital, Enfield these principles can lead to a suspension of aid. 829W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 830W

Live births occurring in selected hospitals, 2005 to 2009 Average number of televisions per Communal household, UK establishment 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2002/03 2.4 Barnet General 2,718 3,298 3,241 3,163 3,235 Hospital 2009 2.4 Source: Living Costs and Food Survey, Office for National Statistics Government Departments: Pay

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT whether his Department provides guidance to departments on data collection on the pay of sub-contracted staff. Affordable Housing: Barking [41245] Margaret Hodge: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Maude: The Government do not require Communities and Local Government what funding his Departments to collect data on the pay of sub-contracted Department plans to provide for the provision of affordable staff, so no guidance has been issued. housing in the Barking Riverside development in the All companies, including those acting as contractors Thames Gateway. [40888] or sub-contractors to Government, are required to comply with national minimum wage legislation. Robert Neill: The first four plots developed at Barking Riverside will deliver 358 homes of which 167 will be Job Creation affordable. The building of these homes is supported by a National Affordable Housing grant of £24 million. Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Further affordable housing within future phases will Office how many and what proportion of jobs created be developed and supported through the HCA’s new in 2010 were (a) full-time and (b) part-time. [40630] Affordable Homes programme the principal product of which is affordable rent. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Audit Commission: Allowances responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2011: Communities and Local Government how much each As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I director of the Audit Commission claimed for (a) have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking hospitality and (b) other expenses in each of the last for the number of part-time and full-time jobs created in 2010 two years. [40994] (40630). The requested information is not available. However estimates Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the for the number of people in full-time and part-time employment are available from the Labour Force Survey. In the three months Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive to November 2010 the number of people in full-time employment of the Audit Commission to write to my hon. Friend was 21,159,000, down 43,000 on the year. In the three months to direct. November 2010 the number of people in part-time employment Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 16 February 2011: was 7,930,000, up 227,000 on the year. These estimates are seasonally adjusted. Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. The amounts claimed by Managing Directors for hospitality and expenses in the last two years are detailed below: Televisions £ Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Hospitality Expenses Office what data his Department holds on the average 2009 number of televisions in households in (a) 1981, (b) 1990, (c) 2000 and (d) 2010. [41285] Chief Executive Steve Bundred 1,557.60 1,445.47 Managing Director Audit Martin Evans 0 12.00 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Managing Director Finance and 21.60 1,362.59 Corporate Services Eugene Sullivan responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Managing Director PRS Peter Wilkinson 0 533.04 Managing Director Local Government 0 1,098.01 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2011: Gareth Davies As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Managing Director HR Tracey Dennison 78.21 394.19 have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Managing Director Communications 1,809.03 404.90 what data is held on the average number of televisions in households David Walker in (a) 1981, (b) 1990, (c) 2000 and (d) 2010. (41285) Managing Director Health Andy 83.25 583.80 The table provided shows the average number of televisions McKeon per household in the UK, in 2002/03 and 2009, the latest available. Data prior to 2002/03 are not available. These estimates are based 2010 on data from the Living Costs and Food Survey (LCF), an annual survey of approximately 5,000 households in the UK. Chief Executive Steve Bundred to 0 1,203.30 31 March 2010, Eugene Sullivan from These estimates, as with any involving sample surveys, are 1 April 2010 subject to a margin of uncertainty. 831W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 832W

Main office phone system and mobile phone contracts £ £ Hospitality Expenses 12 months to 31 January Managing Director Audit Martin Evans 0 0 2009 2010 2011 Total Managing Director Finance and 0 225.10 (a) Premium 55 69 46 170 Corporate Services Eugene Sullivan to 31 rate March 2010. Eugene became Chief Executive on 1 April 2010. (b) Directory 5117 inquiry services Director Finance Sonia Rees was 0 198.21 appointed Finance Director, a senior (c) Speaking 75 44 21 140 management team post, on 1 April when clock Eugene Sullivan became Chief Executive. Total 135 114 68 317 Managing Director PRS and Local 00 Government Peter Wilkinson. The MD, Community Centres: Finance Local Government role was added to this post in October 2010. Managing Director Local Government 0 168.10 Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Gareth Davies. Responsibility for this Communities and Local Government (1) how many post was moved to the MD, PRS in community centres have been (a) refurbished and (b) October 2010. built with assistance from funds from his Department Managing Director Audit Practice 0 45.00 in each local authority area in each year since 1997; Gareth Davies. This post was created in [40816] October 2010. Managing Director HR Tracey Dennison 0 46.70 (2) what sources of funding from his Department Managing Director Communications 180.65 35.00 community groups and local authorities may access to David Walker. This post was made fund the refurbishment of rebuilding of community redundant from September 2010 and centres and parish meeting halls. [40817] responsibility moved to the MD, Health. Managing Director Health and 0 241.46 Greg Clark: In 2009-10, 15 community groups received Communications Andy McKeon. The funding from the Department’s Communitybuilders MD, Communications role was added to programme and 24, so far, have received or will receive this post in October 2010. funding in 2010-11. A list of local authority areas where Hospitality registers and expenses for the Chairman, Board this funding has or will be made is shown as follows: members, the Chief Executive and Managing Directors are published Local authority areas in which community groups have/are on the Audit Commission website. These can be viewed here: to receive Communitybuilders funding http://www.audit-commission.gov.uk/legal/ freedomofinformation/publicationscheme/ 2009-10 hospitalityandexpenses/pages/default.aspx Bradford Camden City of Bristol Audit Commission: Expenditure County of Herefordshire Eden Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Exeter Communities and Local Government how much the Hammersmith and Fulham Audit Commission spent on calls to (a) premium-rate Islington telephone numbers, (b) directory enquiry services and (c) the speaking clock in the last 36 months for which Liverpool figures are available. [41008] Sheffield Southwark Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the Tameside Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive Teignbridge of the Audit Commission to write to my hon. Friend Torridge direct. Wirral Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 16 February 2011: 20010-11 Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. Bradford The Commission routinely bars premium rate calls for fixed Calderdale and mobile phones where technically possible. Some premium Camden rate calls are required for targeted business purposes, the main Cornwall one being for postal franking machines (£162 over the three years). The speaking clock is sometimes used to test lines externally East Lindsey where a guaranteed reply is needed. East Cambridgeshire For our main offices, all directory enquiry calls are routed to Harrogate our main provider Cable & Wireless service as this provides the Kensington and Chelsea most effective rate. Mobile phone calls to directory enquiries and Leeds the speaking clock are barred. Lewes The detail of the spending requested is provided in the table Newark and Sherwood below. However, information for home workers and small office users is excluded, as the detail is not readily accessible from the Newcastle upon Tyne service supplier for the total period. North Tyneside 833W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 834W

Northumberland Departmental Procurement Rotherham Scarborough Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Grant funding to local authorities is not ringfenced Communities and Local Government whether all new and as a result we do not track what it is spent on. contracts his Department has tendered over £10,000 Decisions to target funding on refurbishment of community have been published with associated tender documents centres or parish halls are taken at the local level and we on the Contracts Finder website since its inception. do not hold information on this. This could be provided [39217] only at disproportionate cost. Robert Neill: All new contracts over £10,000, a total of four, will be published in week commencing 14 February Community Development 2011. The Department has used ‘Contracts Finder’ to publish Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for tender documentation in respect of three requirements Communities and Local Government pursuant to the and has a further four live tenders that it will also be answer of 25 January 2011, Official Report, columns publishing in the course of week commencing 14 February 206-7W,on citizen engagement, what (a) new legislation 2011. has been introduced and (b) bureaucracy has been Housing: Taxation removed with the aim of building a Big Society. [40332]

Greg Clark: The Localism Bill, which was published Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for on 13 December 2010, contains a wide range of measures Communities and Local Government whether his to devolve more powers to councils and neighbourhoods Department has estimated the annual revenue to be and give local communities greater control over local raised from implementing a levy of 1 per cent. on the decisions like housing and planning. monetary value of all dwellings in England and Wales valued at £2 million or higher. [40654] The Department is reducing burdens and barriers that make it difficult for local authorities and individuals Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer taking action locally which help to build the Big Society. given to him on 14 February 2011, Official Report, We have reduced burdens and increased flexibility for column 538W. local authorities through dismantling the local performance framework and inspection regime, giving greater control Landlords: Coventry over use of their funding and through measures announced in our response to the Sustainable Communities Act. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Increasing transparency across Whitehall and local for Communities and Local Government how many authorities enables citizens to hold service providers to landlords in Coventry have applied for a selective licence account or open up services to new providers. to date. [41515] The Department is removing its capital clawback rights from accountable bodies that are either a public Andrew Stunell: This information is not held centrally. body or a body subject to an asset lock from four historic grant programmes (Single Regeneration Budget, Local Government: Conditions of Employment Urban Programme, City Challenge and Inner Area Grants). By removing capital clawback rights we are Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for freeing councils and voluntary and community sector Communities and Local Government whether he has organisations to use assets originally funded through any plans to revise the best value code of practice on these programmes in ways that best meet the needs of workforce matters in local authority service contacts in their communities. relation to the terms and conditions of (a) transferred We continue to tackle issues drawn to our attention workers and (b) new employees under outsourced contracts through DCLG’s “barrier busting portal”, most recently within local government. [41324] reaching agreement with the Department for Transport that their guidance on “special event” orders—which Robert Neill: The current guidance to local authorities had been incorrectly presented as necessary for street on handling workforce matters in contracting is part of parties—be withdrawn. a wider suite of best value guidance. The fitness for purpose of this guidance is under consideration within the Department. Council Tax Benefits Non-domestic Rates: Devon

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government what estimate he has made of Communities and Local Government how many residential the level of expenditure on council tax benefit in each properties in the South Hams district council area have local authority in 2009-10; and how much such expenditure been transferred from council tax to business rates in was incurred in respect of (a) pensioner and (b) working the last 10 years. [40233] age households in each authority. [38001] Robert Neill: A precise count of the number of residential Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply. properties that transfer from council tax valuation lists The information has been placed in the Library. to non domestic rating lists in the South Hams district 835W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 836W council area is not held, but the Valuation Office Agency benefit entitlement on the ability of registered social (VOA) has used its records to make the estimates shown landlords to (a) build family-sized accommodation in in the following table, which have been rounded to the all regions and (b) set rents at 80 per cent. of market nearest 10. value. [40573] Nearly all these movements between lists are as a result of seasonal holiday lets being treated as commercial Grant Shapps: The new affordable rent product will property during the summer and residential property allow social landlords to charge rents at up to 80% of during the winter. local market rents. When setting rents, it is expected that providers will, where possible, utilise the flexibility Estimated number of properties inserted in non domestic rating lists that were previously residential properties to charge rents at 80% of local market rents in order to maximise delivery of new homes, but landlords should As at April to March each year Number take into account a number of factors, including the 2000-01 40 proposed reforms of the welfare system. 2001-02 50 We will be publishing an impact assessment on the 2002-03 70 affordable rent model shortly. 2003-04 60 Our affordable rent proposals do not change the 2004-05 190 rights or rents of existing social tenants. Instead they 2005-06 100 will help increase the provision of new affordable housing, 2006-07 120 helping provide below-market rents to a greater number 2007-08 120 of households who would otherwise not have access to 2008-09 120 affordable housing. 2009-10 90 Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities North East and Local Government what definition his Department uses to determine under-occupancy in the social rented Mr Alan Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for sector. [40574] Communities and Local Government which Ministers of his Department have visited the North East since Andrew Stunell: For the purposes of English Housing their appointment; and what the (a) date and (b) Survey a household is considered to be under-occupying purpose was of each such visit. [31783] if they have two or more bedrooms more than they need as measured by the Bedroom Standard. Details of the Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Bedroom Standard, including the rules used to calculate gave to the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline the number of bedrooms needed, can be found in the Flint) on 21 December 2010, Official Report, column Glossary of the English Housing Survey Household 1308W. Report 2008-09 which can be downloaded from: The Secretary of State for Communities and Local http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for statistics/ehs200809householdreport Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), and members of Solar Energy: Planning Permission his ministerial team will be visiting this area of England in due course as part of a wider programme of visits. Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Regeneration: Newcastle upon Tyne Communities and Local Government how many large-scale solar photovoltaic schemes are the subject of a planning Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for application which has not yet been determined. [40894] Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 10 November 2010, Official Report, column Robert Neill: Information on undetermined planning 355W, on urban regeneration: Newcastle upon Tyne, applications for large-scale solar photovoltaic schemes what recent progress he has made in meetings to deliver will be available from individual local planning authorities a sustainable long-term future for the Byker estate. but is not collected by this Department. The Renewable [40717] Energy Planning Database, accessible via the Department for Energy and Climate Change’s website, includes data Andrew Stunell: My Department and the Homes and on solar photovoltaic projects but the statistics do not Communities Agency (HCA) have held further meetings include all live planning applications because of the with representatives from Newcastle city council, Your time lag in collecting data. Homes Newcastle, and the Byker Steering Group to establish a sound financial model for the estate. Our Standards Board for England: Furniture overriding priority is to ensure a sustainable outcome for Byker which achieves value for money and is affordable Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for to Government. The HCA is currently undertaking a Communities and Local Government how much the financial and technical assessment of the proposals and Standards Board has spent on office chairs in the last will shortly submit a recommendation to the Department. 36 months for which figures are available; and what the (a) make and model and (b) cost was of each type of Social Rented Housing chair. [41007]

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Robert Neill: The Standards Board for England has and Local Government what assessment he has made of spent £5,570.54 on office chairs since April 2008, as the likely effects of the proposed cap on household follows: 837W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 838W

The data are available on the CEFAS website at: Make and Unit model Quantity price (£) Total (£) http://www.cefas.co.uk/our-science/observing-and-modelling/ monitoring-programmes/monitoring-sites/liverpool-bay.aspx 14 April Herman 3 517.33 1,551.99 2008 Miller Mirra Task Chair Flood Control: Wales 8 Herman 1 733.55 733.55 December Miller Aeron 2008 Task Chair Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for 26 May Herman 2 657.00 1,314 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the level of 2009 Miller Aeron spending on flood defences in each parliamentary Task Chair constituency in Wales was in each of the last 10 years; 27 Herman 3 657.00 1,971 and what estimate she has made of the level of such July2009 Miller Aeron Task Chair spending in each such constituency in each of the next five years. [41240] I note that the Localism Bill legislates to abolish the Standards Board. Richard Benyon: Flood defence spending is devolved and in Wales is a matter for the Welsh Assembly Supporting People Programme: Liverpool Government.

Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Floods Communities and Local Government if he will assess the effects of the reduction in the supporting people grant to Liverpool city council on people in Liverpool. Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for [39706] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) residential and (b) industrial properties in each local Grant Shapps [holding answer 10 February 2011]: authority area were flooded by each source in (i) 2005 The Department has secured investment of £6.5 billion and (ii) 2009. [41091] for the Supporting People programme over the next four years, which equates to an average annual reduction Richard Benyon: The following tables give figures over the four years of less than 1% in cash term. recorded by the Environment Agency on the number of By rolling Supporting People funding into the main residential and industrial properties flooded (recorded formula grant, we have given councils the maximum by local authority area and by flood source) in 2005 and flexibility to meet their local needs in the best way. The 2009. formula grant system includes safeguards to ensure that 2005 flooding statistics no authority suffers a large reduction in funding. There Number of properties is therefore no reason why Liverpool city council should flooded need to impose large reductions on its spending for Source (if Supporting People services. Local authority Residential Business known) Cumbria CC 3,066 Fluvial/SW (mainly Carlisle City Council) ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Hampshire/West 110 37 Unknown Sussex London Borough of 39 0 Fluvial/SW Algae: Liverpool Bay Bexley Gloucester CC 2 0 Fluvial Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Worcester CC 4 0 Fluvial Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Stoke City Council 1 0 Fluvial assessment she has made of the level of algal blooms in Conwy/Gwynedd 45 Fluvial/SW Liverpool Bay; and if she will make a statement. [40953] Gwynedd/Anglesey 10 Fluvial/SW Carmarthenshire 5 3 Fluvial Richard Benyon: The Centre for the Environment, Pembrokeshire 11 2 Fluvial Fisheries and Aquaculture Science (CEFAS) is contracted Ceredigion 18 4 Fluvial by the Environment Agency (EA) to help England and London Boroughs 5 8 Tidal Wales comply with the requirements of the water framework Thames directive (WFD). Samples are received on a monthly Devon 69 43 Fluvial/SW basis from a number of sites around Liverpool Bay to Somerset 1 0 Fluvial identify and enumerate the whole phytoplankton Torbay 44 14 Fluvial/SW community. These results are then fed into various North Dorset 3 0 Fluvial assessment tools which the EA uses to assess the Cornwall 56 2 SW environmental status of all English and Welsh coastal London Boroughs 9 0 Fluvial and transitional waters. Northumberland 200 23 Fluvial Currently phytoplankton abundance is estimated every Newcastle 18 0 SW 30 minutes by measuring Chlorophyll fluorescence in North Tyneside 5 0 SW situ and can be linked to concurrent environmental and Durham 3 0 Fluvial nutrient data. 839W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 840W

2009 flooding statistics We are committed to protecting the access and public Number of properties benefits of the Public Forest Estate and the current flooded consultation on the future of the Estate in England sets Source (if out and invites views on our proposals to achieve this. Local authority Residential Business known) No further sales will take place under the rules agreed Cumbria CC 1,800 Fluvial/SW by the previous administration until the mechanisms South Lakeland 12 Fluvial/SW are in place to provide extra protections on access and (Cumbria) biodiversity. Hastings BC 36 4 Fluvial Gloucester CC 5 1 Fluvial Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Powys 54 1 Fluvial Food and Rural Affairs what estimate she has made of Derbyshire Amber 10 0 Fluvial the (a) redundancy costs and (b) costs of transferring Valley District (B) staff from the Forestry Commission to alternative owners Birmingham 1 0 SW or managers arising from her proposals for the transfer Herefordshire 1 0 Fluvial of Forestry Commission land in England. [38867] Cardiff 10 0 Fluvial Conwy 3 Fluvial/SW Mr Paice: The outcome of the current consultation Anglesey 1 2 Fluvial/SW on the future of the public forest estate in England will Gwynedd 12 Fluvial determine the impact for existing Forestry Commission Gwynedd 2 GW staff. There will need to be detailed consultation with staff representatives about implementation of any agreed Carmarthenshire 9 0 Fluvial proposals before an estimate of cost can be made. Pembrokeshire 3 1 Fluvial Bridgend 4 0 Fluvial Forestry Commission: Scotland Bedfordshire 19 SW Luton 8 SW Essex 21 0 SW Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for South Holland, 10 0 Fluvial Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Lincolnshire answer of 4 February 2011, Official Report, column Devon 20 17 SW 998W, on Forestry Commission: Scotland, if she will Somerset 26 3 Fluvial/SW place in the Library copies of the recent correspondence Torbay 4 3 SW between her Department and the Forestry Minister in Dorset 12 1 Fluvial Scotland. [40907] Wiltshire 2 0 Fluvial Hampshire 1 0 Fluvial Mr Paice [holding answer 14 February 2011]: We do not place copies of the correspondence in the Library in Bournemouth and 8 0 Fluvial Poole order to respect the confidentiality of inter-Administration Cornwall 74 0 SW communications. London Boroughs 203 17 Fluvial/SW Northumberland 7 1 Fluvial Forestry Commission: Staff Durham 9 16 Fluvial Durham 3 0 SW Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Redcar and 8 0 Fluvial Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many people Cleveland the Forestry Commission employs in (a) Thirsk and Middlesbrough 8 0 Fluvial Malton constituency and (b) England. [38972] SW = Surface Water GW = Groundwater Mr Paice: As of January 2011, the Forestry Commission Notes: employs 1,368 people (in both full and part-time positions) 1. Property data collected has not always been broken down as being either residential or business. across England with 61 staff based in Thirsk and Malton 2. Most inland flooding incidents are a combination of surface water constituency. and fluvial flooding. Forests Forestry Commission: Land Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy expressions of interest in purchasing land in England is on whether owners of former Forestry Commission put up for sale by the Forestry Commission have been land disposed of by sale should be entitled to charge received from (a) private buyers, (b) community or fees for use of the land by others. [38803] charitable bodies and (c) other public bodies since 6 May 2010. [39046] Mr Paice: Under the previous Government there were no restrictions placed on the new owners of former Mr Paice [holding answer 8 February 2011]: Expressions Forestry Commission-managed land preventing them of interest made direct to the Forestry Commission are charging for use of the land, other than for access on not recorded centrally. Land to be sold on the open foot where the land had been dedicated for access under market by the Forestry Commission is marketed through the provisions in the Countryside and Rights of Way its professional selling agents who invite potential buyers Act. to register their interest. 841W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 842W

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Region Wood Area (ha) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what average market price of timber from the public forest estate was South West Sleech and Pond. Lot 1 Sleech 14 in each year since 2000. [39131] England Wood South West Sleech and Pond. Lot 2 Pond 2 Mr Paice [holding answer 8 February 2011]: The England Coppice following table lists average price per cubic metre overbark South West Lot 1 Stowe Wood Coombe Valley 53 (the volume of wood including the bark) standing of England Woods timber sold from the public forest estate by financial South West Winsford 23 year since 2000-01. England South West Beardown 48 England £ South West Stonaford and North Hill, 65 Direct Standing Average all England Trebatha, Bodmin production1 sales2 sales South East Buscot and Badbury 168 2000-01 21.22 10.69 15.11 England 2001-02 20.21 9.64 13.70 South East Orlestone (Penfold Wood) 7.29 England 2002-03 19.56 7.88 12.24 South East Alice Holt (Wey Spinney north of 2 2003-04 19.14 6.78 11.07 England railway) 2004-05 18.52 6.72 11.13 South East Brassets Wood 19.88 2005-06 19.91 7.80 12.36 England 2006-07 20.06 9.11 13.59 South East Lot 1 Land at Christmas 0.23 2007-08 23.71 13.08 17.44 England Common (paddock) also known 2008-09 23.40 13.66 17.65 as Field at Queens and College Wood 2009-10 21.34 11.49 15.34 South East Lot 2 Land at Christmas 0.19 1 Direct production is timber harvested by the Forestry Commission England Common (footings of former and sold at ride side or delivered to customer’s premises. office) also known as Field at 2 Standing sales is timber sold as standing trees and harvested by the Queens and College Wood customer. South East Market Reading, (Latimer) 3.68 Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for England Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what land South East Sulham 98.30 England owned by the Forestry Commission is for sale. [40425] South East Rewell 281 England Mr Paice: The following table shows the Forestry South East Houghton 233 Commission England land that was identified using the England 2010-11 sales criteria put in place by the previous South East New sowed wood (Shardeloes) 2 Administration and where sales are agreed but not yet England completed. No further sales will take place until the North West Bigwood 29 mechanisms are in place to provide extra protections on England access and biodiversity. North West Dalton Park 79 England Region Wood Area (ha) East Midlands Compton Estate—Cold Oak 42 East Midlands Compton Estate—Horn Wood 24 York and Wadworth 94 East Midlands Compton Estate—Long Furlong 73 Humber (Easton) York and Arncliffe 173 East Midlands Wadworth—Wet Holt 6 Humber York and Thwaite Wood (Old Field Wood) 21 Humber Forests: Bedfordshire West Midlands Limburies 12 West Midlands Brookshill 30 Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for West Midlands Mansty, Cannock (Pillaton)—with — Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the access above arrangements are for Dedmansey Wood in South West West Midlands Madeley Heath Lot 1 Waltons 30 Bedfordshire constituency. [39867] West Midlands Buxton 8 West Midlands Madeley Heath Lot 2 Old Wharf 13 Mr Paice [holding answer 11 February 2011]: Dedmansey South West Bircham 20 Wood is leased by the Forestry Commission. The terms England of the lease prevent the commission from providing South West Lulworth Woods 255 public access to it. England South West Ashclyst 2 England Forests: Devon South West Hay Wood 53 England Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for South West Pt Grogley 4 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many acres England of forest land the Forestry Commission owns in (a) South West Lot 2 Rookery Wood, Coombe 6 England Valley Woods Devon and (b) Newton Abbot constituency; and where such land is located. [39254] 843W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 844W

Mr Paice [holding answer 9 February 2011]: The Grid reference Constituency Wood name Area (ha) Forestry Commission public forest estate in Devon extends to approximately 8,987 hectares, of which, 455 SY185990 Tiverton and Offwell 84 hectares is in the Newton Abbott constituency. This is Honiton owned by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food SX882766 Newton Haldon5 78 and Rural Affairs, and placed at the disposal of the Abbott Forestry Commissioners under section (3)1 of the Forestry SY211921 Tiverton and Morganhayes 68 Act 1967. Honiton SX900827 Central Haldon5 67 The following table lists the woods that comprise the Devon public forest estate in Devon. SS645085 Torridge and Winkleigh 65 West Devon Grid reference Constituency Wood name Area (ha) SX860956 Central Powderham, 63 Devon Cleave SS420020 Torridge and Halwill, 875 ST122159 Tiverton and Culm Davey 63 West Devon Clawmoor, Honiton Croftmoor SX820754 Central Haldon1 60 SX871870 Central Haldon2 724 Devon Devon SX664742 Torridge and Brimpts 58 SX655834 Torridge and Fernworthy 575 West Devon West Devon SY159961 Tiverton and Offwell, Farway 56 SX646771 Torridge and Believer 540 Honiton West Devon SX491864 Torridge and Lydford 54 SX527600 South West Plym Main 516 West Devon Devon Block ST003186 Tiverton and Huntsham 48 SS291198 Torridge and Meddon, 410 Honiton West Devon Summerwell, SY221969 Tiverton and Parehayne 47 Wooley Honiton SX913810 Newton Haldon4 350 SS330007 Torridge and Leworthy 47 Abbott West Devon SS695109 Central Eggesford 311 SY112918 East Devon Straightway 46 Devon SX925961 Exeter Stoke Wood2 44 SS373191 Torridge and Melbury Hill, 308 West Devon Powlers Piece SS636149 Torridge and Bithefin 43 West Devon SX431964 Torridge and Witherdon, 285 West Devon Westlake, Upcott SS644214 North Devon Shortbridge 42 SX881839 Central Haldon3 229 SX468715 Torridge and Birch Wood 39 Devon West Devon SY112918 East Devon East Hill 217 SS649419 North Devon Wistlandpound 37 SX938854 Central Sousons 215 SX677795 Central Stoke Wood1 35 Devon Devon SX592972 Central Berrydown, 208 SS404046 Torridge and Ltl Moor, Mdl 30 Devon Abbeyford West Devon Rolls, Westcott SX925960 Central Wadland, 188 SS547197 Torridge and Dodscott, 30 Devon Ashbury, West Devon Moreton, Deers Homing Down Hill SX904787 Central Oldridge 170 SX528666 Torridge and Olderwood 28 Devon West Devon SX825825 Central Canonteign 170 SS396061 Torridge and Cookbury 28 Devon West Devon SS700337 North Devon Gratton, 165 SX943815 Newton Black Forest 27 Sheracombe, Abbott Hunstone SS410054 Torridge and Bramble Wood 25 SX492843 Torridge and Burley Down, 151 West Devon West Devon Brentor SY059950 East Devon Straighway Head 21 SS353012 Torridge and Circuit, Rydon, 140 SX519963 East Devon Buckley 20 West Devon Merryfieid SX476827 Torridge and Langstone Wood 13 ST118074 Tiverton and Sheldon 137 West Devon Honiton ST189081 Tiverton and South Cleve 10 SX820754 Central Great Plantation 137 Honiton Devon SS404039 Torridge and Dunsland 9 SS804273 North Devon Molland Estate 129 West Devon SX401987 Torridge and Quoditch 106 SY331950 Tiverton and Whitty Hill 9 West Devon Honiton SY309948 Tiverton and Wyld Warr, 104 SX473828 Torridge and Asheltor Wood 9 Honiton Trinity Hill, Hole West Devon SX472666 Torridge and Denham 99 SX477831 Torridge and Coles Wood 9 West Devon West Devon SX469960 Torridge and Northcombe 93 SX559598 South West Hooksbury 9 West Devon Devon 845W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 846W

Forests: Public Finance Grid reference Constituency Wood name Area (ha)

SY331959 Tiverton and Forches 8 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Honiton Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate SX565604 South West Browns Wood 7 she has made of the net cost to the public purse of the Devon sale of (a) forestry woodland and (b) commercial woodland in her proposals for the future of the public forest estate; and if she will make a statement. [38970] Forests: Ministerial Statements Mr Paice: We are currently consulting on the proposals for the future of the public forest estate in England. No Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for decisions will be made until after the conclusion of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) consultation. oral and (b) written ministerial statements have been The Impact Assessment includes initial estimates of made by Ministers in her Department on (i) the the set cost of any sales to be comparable with those Forestry Commission and (ii) UK Forestry in each year that have taken place to date, which is approximately since 2001; and what title her Department assigned to 5% of the gross sale value. each statement. [40897] Forests: Timber

Mr Paice [holding answer 14 February 2011]: All oral Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for and written statements made by DEFRA are recorded Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the percentage in the Official Report. Separate records outside the change in the volume of wood supplied to the market current session of Parliament are not kept in the from the public forest estate in (a) England and (b) the Department and could be provided only at disproportionate UK there was in each year since 1999. [41082] cost. Mr Paice [holding answer 15 February 2011]: The To date, in the 2010-11 Session, there has been one following table gives the percentage change in wood written ministerial statement, ‘Public Forest Estate’, on production each year from 1999 to 2009. Figures for 27 January 2011, Official Report, columns 16-18WS. 2010 are not yet available.

Percentage change Percentage change Percentage change Percentage change England (green from the previous from 1999 UK1 (green from the previous from 1999 Calendar year tonnes) year baseline tonnes) year baseline

1999 1,379,000 4,853,000 2000 1,270,000 -8 -8 4,980,000 +3 +3 2001 1,205,000 -5 -13 4,749,000 -5 -2 2002 1,211,000 +1 -12 4,768,000 0 -2 2003 1,214,000 0 -12 4,934,000 +4 +2 2004 1,308,000 +8 -5 5,007,000 +2 +3 2005 1,255,000 -4 -9 4,680,000 -6 -4 2006 1,194,000 -5 -13 4,627,000 -1 -5 2007 1,248,000 +5 -9 4,693,000 +1 -3 2008 1,140,000 -9 -17 4,458,000 -5 -8 2009 1,291,000 +13 -6 5,213,000 +17 +7 1 UK includes Forestry Commission managed woodland (England, Scotland and Wales) and the Forest Service in Northern Ireland. Note: Percentages are given to the nearest whole number.

Irish Sea: Pollution Republic and these regions all have their own arrangements for monitoring and reporting on pollution in the Irish sea. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what assessment A number of UK statutory bodies have co-operated her Department has made since 2007 of the effect of since 2007 to ensure that the monitoring of pollution in polychlorinated biphenyls on the marine environment UK marine waters in the Irish sea is appropriately funded and carried out. The bodies involved are: in the Irish Sea; [41043] in England and Wales: Department for Environment, Food (2) which (a) statutory and (b) non-statutory bodies and Rural Affairs, Department for Transport, Department of have monitored pollution levels in the Irish Sea in each Energy and Climate Change, Welsh Assembly Government, year since 2007; [41221] Environment Agency and the Maritime and Coastguard Agency; (3) what estimate she has made of the cost to the in Scotland: Scottish Executive, Marine Scotland (formerly public purse of monitoring pollution levels in the Irish Fisheries Research Services), Scottish Environmental Protection Sea in each year since 2007. [41225] Agency, and; in Northern Ireland: Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, Department of the Environment in Northern Richard Benyon: The Irish sea is bounded by England Ireland, Northern Ireland Environment Agency and the Agri-Food and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Irish and Biosciences Institute. 847W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 848W

Small amounts of monitoring may also be done by Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the Loughs Agency which is a cross border body partly Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many pollution supported by Department of Agriculture and Rural incidents of each type there were on each river flowing Development. into the Irish Sea in each of the past 10 years. [41220] A number of non-statutory bodies also measure pollution Richard Benyon: The following table shows the estimated levels in the Irish sea, including marine institutes, universities, number of category 1 (major) and 2 (significant) pollution industries and non-governmental organisations. incidents that had an impact to water in a catchment The monitoring carried out by these bodies is brought that flowed in to the Irish sea. together and co-ordinated through the UK Marine Monitoring and Assessment Strategy (UKMMAS), which Number of category 1 and 2 has the goal of ensuring the cost-effective provision of incidents the information needed for policy and management 2001 182 decisions to deliver the UK marine vision of clean, 2002 140 healthy, productive and biologically diverse seas. UKMMAS 2003 127 has recently published Charting Progress 2, an assessment 2004 150 of the state of UK seas, which also includes assessments of the status of the Irish sea available at: 2005 115 2006 112 http://chartingprogress.defra.gov.uk 2007 93 The UK Government co-operate with the Irish 2008 90 Government in the framework of the OSPAR Convention 2009 105 for the Protection of the North East Atlantic through 2010 87 participation in its Joint Assessment and Monitoring Programme. Regular joint assessments of the status of Not all recorded incidents will have reached the Irish the various regions of the North East Atlantic are sea. Pollutants would have broken down before they made. OSPAR has recently published its Quality Status entered the sea. Report 2010, which includes assessments of the state of Not all of the incidents will have had a major or pollution across the North-East Atlantic, including in significant impact on the Irish sea. The incident level is the Irish sea. recorded on site which can be many miles from the sea. The monitoring of pollution in the Irish sea is funded Land by a number of government bodies in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Funds are generally Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for allocated on a national basis and support monitoring Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate across all the seas within each administration’s jurisdiction. she has made of the proportion of the net cost of (a) It is not therefore possible to distinguish the specific the proposed transfer to the charitable sector of land in amount of money allocated to monitoring pollution (i) the New Forest and (ii) the Forest of Dean and (b) levels in the Irish sea. the proposed disposal of Kielder Forest which will be Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCBs) are monitored in met from the public purse. [39281] the Irish sea under the Clean Seas Environmental Monitoring Programme. Levels are assessed in sediments Mr Paice: An impact assessment was published alongside and biota (shellfish and fish liver). the current consultation on the future of the Forestry Commission public forest estate in England. This gives PCB results were incorporated in the Clean and Safe an initial indication of costs for each of the policy Seas chapter of Charting Progress 2 which was delivered options outlined in the consultation, but does not consider in 2010. Results were also included in the Quality Status them in relation to specific sites. Report 2010 prepared by the OSPAR Convention for No decisions about the future of the sites mentioned the Protection of the marine environment of the North will be made until after the conclusion of the consultation. East Atlantic. These reports concluded, that despite these substances Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for having been banned, exceedances of the environmental Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment quality standards for PCBs at some sites are still being she has made of the likely effects on common land of observed within the Irish sea. the provisions of the Localism Bill. [41169] Richard Benyon: No formal assessment has been made Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for on the likely effects on common land of the provision of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will estimate the Localism Bill. Restricted works on registered and the mass of fertiliser washed into the Irish sea in each of certain other common land require the consent of the the last 10 years. [41216] Secretary of State under section 38 of the Commons Act 2006. The Localism Bill does not affect the requirement Richard Benyon: The monitoring of pollution in the for such consent. Irish sea is carried out by a number of organisations in Nature Reserves England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Various components of fertilizer are monitored, such Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for as: ammonia, nitrate, orthophosphate, and nitrogen but Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment no records are held centrally of the total mass of she has made of the long-term trends in visits to nature fertilizer discharged into the Irish sea. reserves. [41042] 849W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 850W

Richard Benyon: There are a number of different (a) have been bought since 1981, (b) have been sold statutory and non-statutory designations of nature reserve. since 1981 and (c) are scheduled for sale; and what the These range from informal designations made by nature (i) name, (ii) ordnance survey grid reference, (iii) local conservation bodies, through local wildlife sites and authority area, (iv) size, (v) price and (vi) date of local nature reserves, to the nationally designated National purchase or sale was in each case. [38689] Nature Reserve series. We do not hold information on long-term trends in numbers of visits to these sites. Mr Paice [holding answer 7 February 2011]: The Plantations public forest estate is owned by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and placed at Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for the disposal of the Forestry Commissioners under section Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which Forestry (3)1 of the Forestry Act 1967. Acquisitions and sales, Commission and Forest Enterprise-owned plantations including areas in the process of being sold, since 1997 of 50 hectares or more in Yorkshire and the Humber are given in the following table.

Grid reference Local authority Area (ha) Net price (£) Date

Acquisitions since 1997 Wombwell Wood—Community Wood SE379025 Barnsley district 52 0 30 September 2002 Upper Woodhead Farm—Community SE369032 Barnsley district 58 0 1 June 2010 Wood

Sales since 1997 Wraby Moors, North Lindsey, Brigg TA031105 North Lincolnshire 70 104,000 22 April 2009 Faceby (Bonny Cliff) NZ509019 North Yorkshire 62 40,000 1 December 2010

Being sold as part of the 2010-11 programme Arncliffe SE454990 North Yorkshire 173 — Sale agreed Wadworth SK556972 Doncaster district 94 — Sale agreed

Sewage: Railways Wareham Forest

Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she an assessment of the legality of authorisations granted has for the future of Wareham Forest; and what steps for train operating companies discharging sewage onto she plans to take to maintain current public rights of railway tracks. [40558] access, rights to recreational activity and levels of biodiversity. [39032] Richard Benyon: The discharge of sewage onto railway tracks is lawfully provided via an exemption from the Mr Paice [holding answer 8 February 2011]: The need for an environmental permit. This is set out in main block of Wareham Forest has been indicatively Chapter 4 of Schedule 3 to the Environmental Permitting categorised as ‘heritage’ on the map that accompanies (England and Wales) Regulations 2010. The discharge the consultation on the future of the Public Forest is exempt providing the operator: meets the rules of the Estate in England. We are committed to protecting the exemption; registers the exemption with the Environment public benefits that are currently provided by the Public Agency; and carries out the operation without endangering Forest Estate, including public access and biodiversity. human health or risking harm to the environment. The consultation sets out and invites views on the The Government carries out regular reviews of proposals for protecting these benefits. exemptions from environmental permitting to ensure the controls are proportionate to the risk posed. Wood: Licensing Squirrels Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much the timber was removed under felling licences from (a) Forestry Commission spent on controlling the size of Oxford West and Abingdon constituency and (b) the squirrel population on its estate between 2008 and Oxfordshire in each year since 2007. [38388] 2010. [39907] Mr Paice: The Forestry Commission records information Mr Paice: The Forestry Commission in England spent on felling licences and grant schemes (which may have approximately £102,000 during 2008-09 and £127,000 associated permission to fell trees) by local authority during 2009-10 on activities associated with the control area. Information by constituency could be provided of grey squirrel populations on the public forest estate. only at disproportionate cost. 851W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 852W

The following table gives details of the felling licences to do so. The Forestry Commission does not record issued in each district in Oxfordshire for each financial timber volume removals as a result of the licences it year from 2007-08. A licence, which is valid for between issues or felling permission given in association with two and five years, gives the landowner permission to woodland grant scheme agreements. fell the trees but does not place them under any obligation

Clear felling Cutting coppice Other felling1 Thinning Total Area Volume Area Volume Area Volume Area Volume Area Volume (ha) (m3) (ha) (m3) (ha) (m3) (ha) (m3) (ha) (m3)

2007-08 Cherwell District 1.2 977 — 2 — 15 4.9 191 6.1 1,185 Oxford District 0.1 16 — — — — — 5 0.1 21 South Oxfordshire 1 178 — — — 7 105.7 3,586 106.7 3,771 Vale of White 2.1 660 — — 0.6 88 104.8 2,909 107.5 3,657 Horse West Oxfordshire 4.6 546 0.6 114 0.5 80 9.1 381 14.8 1,121

2008-09 Cherwell District — 10 — 5 1 99 61.2 2,038 62.3 2,152 Oxford District — — — 5 — — 5.1 30 5.1 35 South Oxfordshire 0.5 10 — — 0.4 17 299.6 14,038 300.5 14,065 Vale of White 1.9 1,080 2 100 19.1 11,587 10.6 1,647 33.6 14,414 Horse West Oxfordshire 5.3 801 0.1 10 13 759 151.1 3,257 169.5 4,827

2009-10 Cherwell District 4.1 1,184 0.1 5 1.5 146 37.6 1,825 43.3 3,160 Oxford District — — — — — 10 — — — 10 South Oxfordshire 3.3 241 0.8 156 7.6 540 72.5 2,183 84.2 3,120 Vale of White 1.7 40 — — 0.7 41 11 235 13.4 316 Horse West Oxfordshire 2.7 1,327 4.8 150 5.1 1,131 371 11,354 383.6 13,962 1 Other felling includes selective felling, hedgerow trees and single isolated trees not forming part of a woodland.

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE obligation (RO) is currently the Government’s main mechanism for incentivising large scale renewable Biofuels deployment. The cost of renewables obligation support for this level of biomass generation is estimated to be in Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for the region of £0.5 to £1 billion in 2020 (2010-11 prices). Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he We are currently reviewing the level of support for all has made of the (a) prospects for, (b) funding requirements renewables technologies, and will consult on any changes for and (c) potential contribution of large-scale biomass to RO bands this summer. As part of that process, we developments to his Department’s energy strategy. have asked our consultants Arup to provide updated [40925] assumptions on potential deployment and costs for each renewable electricity technology. Charles Hendry: DECC’s renewable energy planning database (REPD) at: Chemicals: Teesside https://restats.decc.gov.uk/cms/welcome-to-the-restats-web- site Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy contains detailed information on biomass plant under and Climate Change if he will meet representatives of construction, in planning, and consented in the UK. the chemical industry from Teesside to discuss UK There are no large scale (>50 MW) dedicated biomass energy policy. [41079] plants currently operational in the UK, however, a 50 MW combined heat and power biomass plant is under Charles Hendry [holding answer 15 February 2011]: construction at Markinch, Fife. Four projects for large-scale The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change plant have received planning consent (805 MW total and all the ministerial team at DECC value the importance capacity) and six large-scale projects (1.2 GW total of the UK chemicals industry to the UK economy and capacity) are currently under planning consideration. helping to deliver a low carbon economy. DECC Ministers Modelling to inform delivery of the renewable energy and officials are already engaged with representatives directive target suggested that up to around 10 TWh of from the chemicals industry to discuss the impact of renewable generation in 2020 might come from dedicated DECC policies on their sector. Last September I met biomass generation, or biomass CHP (based on an with representatives from the Chemical Industries estimate of around 1.3 GW by 2020). This estimate is Association to discuss UK energy and climate change not based on specific size of plant. The renewables policies. 853W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 854W

Departmental Carbon Emissions Green Climate Fund

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Energy and Climate Change pursuant to his oral statement and Climate Change how much his Department spent of 13 December 2010, Official Report, columns 698-99W, on carbon offsetting in each of the last three years; and on the Cancun Climate Change Conference, what the to which companies payments for carbon offsetting membership of the board of the green climate fund is; were made in each such year. [40286] when he expects the fund to become operational; and how the fund will be capitalised. [41596]

Gregory Barker: Figures for the amount spent on Gregory Barker: The operational details of the green carbon offsets purchased through the Government Carbon climate fund, including its board membership and financing Offsetting Facility by Central Government Departments structure, will be considered by a Transitional Committee. are shown in the following table. This committee has been tasked with designing the fund and making its recommendations to COP 17 later this £ year. Terms of reference for the committee were annexed Financial year to the Cancun agreement. The timing of the fund Department 2007-08 2008-09 2009-101 becoming operational will depend on decisions taken at COP 17. Cabinet Office (including No. 43,129 44,595 0 10 Downing street) Department for Business, 258,578 351,532 0 Radioactive Waste Innovation and Skills (BIS) Department for Children, 3,965 2,208 0 Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Schools and Families (DCSF) and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the Department for Communities 2,338 2,657 0 and Local Government average quantity of radioactive materials released into the atmosphere from each (a) coal-fired and (b) nuclear Department for Culture, 3,469 3,469 0 Media and Sport (DCMS) power station in each of the last five years. [40680] Department for Environment, 450,481 550,541 0 Food and Rural Affairs Charles Hendry: Assessments published by the National (DEFRA) Radiological Protection Board, now a division of the Department for International 179,818 219,243 0 Health Protection Agency (HPA) in 2001 confirmed Development (DFID) that the radioactivity in coal and its waste products is Department for Transport 12,756 13,111 0 below the threshold value for regulation as a radioactive (DFT) substance. This remains the most recent and authoritative Department for Work and 27,641 27,365 0 report in respect of these discharges. It is available on Pensions (DWP) the HPA website at: Department of Energy and n/a n/a 611,670 Climate Change (DECC) http://www.hpa.org.uk/Publications/Radiation/ Department of Health 9,099 9,117 0 NPRBArchive/MiscellaneousNRPBReports/ Abstracts1996To2001/2001nrpbR327/ Foreign and Commonwealth 263,595 0 742,066 Office (FCO) Principal atmospheric discharges for 2006 to 2009 Government Equalities Office 000from operating nuclear power stations, and those (GEO) undergoing decommissioning, are provided in the following HM Revenue and Customs 55,429 69,098 0 table. The data are as reported to the Environment (HMRC) Agency and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency HM Treasury 8,808 11,892 0 and published in the annual publication, ‘Radioactivity Home Office 30,369 29,120 0 in Food and the Environment (RIFE)’. Copies of RIFE Law Officer’s Department 5,839 8,925 0 are available in the Libraries of the House and on the (LOD) Food Standards Agency website at: Northern Ireland Office 6,339 6,448 0 http://www.food.gov.uk/science/surveillance/radiosurv/rife/ (NIO) Ministry of Defence (MOD) 167,215 240,881 0 Data for 2010 are not yet available. Ministry of Justice (MOJ) 14,825 14,956 0 (including Department for TBq Constitutional Affairs) Site name/ radioactivity 2006 2007 2008 2009

Payments made to: Trading Trading Essent Berkeley Emissions Emissions Trading plc plc Inter- Beta 4.04E-07 2.53E-07 2.73E-07 5.10E-07 national Tritium 0.00386 0.00421 0.00469 3.39E-03 SA Carbon-14 1.66E-04 2.50E-04 2.82E-04 2.24E-04 1 Some Departments may have purchased offsets in 2010-11 to account for emissions which took place in 2009-10 and therefore have a zero entry for 2009-10. Bradwell 2 Includes Energy section of DECC from 3 October 2008. Beta 9.76E-06 4.13E-06 1.91E-07 2.08E-07 3 Includes Energy section of DECC from 3 October 2008. Tritium 0.00843 0.0226 0.00691 9.87E-03 4 Includes Climate Change section of DECC from 3 October 2008. Carbon-14 5.63E-04 0.00111 0.00116 6.24E-04 5 Includes Climate Change section of DECC from 3 October 2008. 6 Includes Act On CO2 Campaign. 855W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 856W

TBq TBq Site name/ Site name/ radioactivity 2006 2007 2008 2009 radioactivity 2006 2007 2008 2009

Chapelcross Argon-41 8.04 3.76 8.85 12.1 Tritium 121 85.1 68.4 95.1 Cobalt-601,3 — 5.23E-06 8.03E-06 7.55E-06 Sulphur-35 4.20E-05 2.7E-05 3.9E-05 Nil Iodine-131 4.06E-06 5.91E-06 7.03E-06 6.33E-06 Argon-41 Nil Nil Nil Nil Hunterston A Dungeness A Beta1 2.83E-07 3.8E-07 4.26E-07 4.40E-07 Beta1 1.97E-04 6.41E-05 5.21E-05 3.91E-05 Tritium 0.00197 0.00161 0.0013 0.00113 Tritium 0.181 0.219 0.0347 0.0238 Carbon-14 1.84E-04 1.81E-04 1.28E-04 1.17E-04 Carbon-14 1.93 0.243 0.00111 0.0301 Sulphur-35 0.047 0.00165 2.58E-04 9.87E-04 Hunterston B Argon-41 1280 Nil Nil Nil Beta1 3.40E-05 4.47E-05 7.08E-05 1.14E-04 Tritium 1.66 1.60 2.78 3.31 Dungeness B Carbon-14 1.68 0.540 1.31 1.32 Beta1,2 5.54E-06 1.34E-06 — — Sulphur-35 0.0222 0.0182 0.0436 0.0684 Tritium 2.99 4.46 8.1 9.06 Argon-41 20.6 5.9 12.4 12.7 Carbon-14 0.601 0.797 0.73 0.634 Iodine-1314 — 8.13E-05 4.0E-04 1.30E-04 Sulphur-35 0.0201 0.0366 0.0509 0.0957 Argon-41 13.6 20.9 12.8 24.4 Oldbury Cobalt-601,3 — 3.67E-07 3.14E-07 6.82E-07 Beta 1.39E-05 1.56E-05 2.94E-05 4.42E-05 Iodine-131 2.19E-06 1.03E-05 1.52E-05 1.68E-05 Tritium 1.72 1.31 1.59 2.05 Carbon-14 0.887 0.325 0.93 1.44 Hartlepool Sulphur-35 0.0412 0.0133 0.0546 0.0821 Beta1,2 4.32E-06 9.42E-07 — — Argon-41 19.6 5.2 19.3 29.1 Tritium 1.26 0.843 0.114 0.704 Carbon-14 1.47 1.66 0.0152 1.17 Sizewell A Sulphur-35 0.0198 0.0187 0.0025 0.019 Beta 2.23E-04 3.80E-06 E-06 1.90E-06 Argon-41 4.52 6.83 0.00104 6.12 Tritium 1.42 1.18 0.659 0.214 Cobalt-601,3 — 1.95E-06 4.0E-06 1.19E-05 Carbon-14 1.49 0.11 0.0464 0.0131 Iodine-131 2.29E-05 4.76E-05 8.9E-05 1.69E-04 Sulphur-35 0.143 0.015 0.00202 0.001 Argon-41 2130 Nil Nil Nil Heysham 1 Beta1 8.57E-06 1.91E-06 — — Sizewell B Tritium 1.04 1.18 0.47 0.785 Noble gases 3.05 — 2.87 3.92 Carbon-14 1.72 1.48 0.033 1.3 Halogens 5.33E-04 3.75E-06 — — Sulphur-35 0.0241 0.021 0.014 0.0194 Beta1 4.52E-05 5.00E-06 7.0E-06 5.00E-06 Argon-41 8.55 8.01 Nil 0.314 Tritium 1.23 1.18 0.598 0.714 Cobalt-601,3 — 4.42E-06 5.9E-06 5.55E-06 Carbon-14 0.169 0.295 0.333 0.297 Iodine-131 1.10E-04 8.99E-05 8.0E-05 7.96E-05 Iodine-1313 — 1.90E-05 3.6E-05 2.11E-04

Heysham 2 Torness Beta1 1.18E-05 2.76E-06 — — 1 Tritium 0.994 1.17 1.2 0.85 Beta 4.22E-06 3.34E-06 3.41E-06 5.57E-06 Carbon-14 1.27 1.52 1.7 1.4 Tritium 1.91 2.62 1.60 1.44 Sulphur-35 0.0149 0.01 0.013 0.0108 Carbon-14 0.688 0.880 0.841 1.07 Argon-41 11.8 8.84 6.6 17.8 Sulphur-35 0.0136 0.00873 0.00595 0.0097 Cobalt-601,3 — 6.94E-06 7.3E-06 1.35E-05 Argon-41 3.76 5.45 4.27 4.90 Iodine-131 5.39E-05 3.82E-05 5.8E-05 9.36E-05 Iodine-131 — 2.21E-06 2.08E-06 2.83E-06

Hinkley Point A Trawsfynydd Beta 8.39E-07 4.37E-07 4.99E-07 3.67E-07 Beta 2.69E-07 3.94E-07 5.0E-07 6.85E-07 Tritium 0.121 0.103 0.113 6.62E-02 Tritium 0.11 0.12 0.0959 0.0727 Carbon-14 6.87E-04 7.12E-04 7.31E-04 7.25E-04 Carbon-14 0.00296 0.00274 0.00213 0.00227

Hinkley Point B Wylfa Beta1 2.48E-05 6.24E-06 — — Beta 3.69E-05 4.84E-05 3.39E-05 4.22E-05 Tritium 6.52 0.902 1.48 2.55 Tritium 2.65 2.78 2.63 2.86 Carbon-14 1.32 0.472 1.11 0.908 Carbon-14 1.28 1 1.49 1.42 Sulphur-35 0.180 0.0670 0.12 0.106 Sulphur-35 0.161 0.13 0.154 0.172 857W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 858W

scales. The tariffs were set to deliver an approximate TBq rate of return 5-8% for well-sited installations. Site name/ radioactivity 2006 2007 2008 2009 Reference installation was based on 850kWhr/kWp per year for well-orientated UK PV installations—see Argon 41 14.8 14.4 22 17.9 ‘Quantitative Analysis of the Design of the Feed-in TBq = Terabecquerel—the international system unit of activity of a Tariffs’ at: radionuclide. 1 Particulate activity http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ 2 Not reported after 31 March 2007 elec_financial/elec_financial.aspx 3 Not reported prior to 1 April 2007 4 Not reported prior to1 June 2007 Note: Beta particles are high-energy, high-speed electrons or positrons HEALTH emitted by certain types of radioactive nuclei. The beta particles emitted are a form of ionizing radiation also known as beta rays. Blood: Donors Source: Radioactivity in Food and the Environment, 2006-09 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health TBq = Terabecquerel—the international system unit of activity of a (1) what estimate he has made of the (a) number, (b) radionuclide. number per 1,000 head of population and (c) proportion 1 Particulate activity 2 Not reported after 31 March 2007 of people who gave blood in each age decile for each of 3 Not reported prior to 1 April 2007 the last five years; [40841] 4 Not reported prior to1 June 2007 (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Note: blood donors per 1,000 head of population in each Beta particles are high-energy, high-speed electrons or positrons emitted by certain types of radioactive nuclei. The beta particles ethnic group in each of the last five years; [40845] emitted are a form of ionizing radiation also known as beta rays. (3) how many blood donors there were in each year Source: for which figures are available; [41045] Radioactivity in Food and the Environment, 2006-09 (4) how many blood donors of each (a) age group, Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs (b) sex, (c) socio-economic group and (d) blood type there are in each region. [41126] Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: The information has been placed in the Energy and Climate Change what minimum efficiency Library. standards his Department has set for solar photovoltaic projects to qualify for subsidy. [41309] Children: Television

Gregory Barker: FITs rewards generators in proportion Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to the amount of electricity generated so there is a what research his Department has (a) commissioned strong economic incentive to use efficient equipment and (b) evaluated on the potential effects of television and to site the installation optimally. viewing on the (i) metabolic rates and (ii) long-term A requirement of feed-in tariffs (FITs) is that installations health of children. [40842] under 50 kW, including solar photovoltaics, must use installers and products accredited under the Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not commissioned Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS), or research specifically on the potential effects of television equivalent, to be eligible for FITs. MCS gives assurances viewing on the metabolic rates and long-term health of about likely quality, durability and performance of children. installations. Solar photovoltaic installations of more In 2009, the Department set up an expert group to than 50 kW are accredited by Ofgem under a process review existing evidence on the impact of sedentary similar to the renewables obligation. behaviour, including screen time on overweight and obesity, and the impact on health and activity levels. Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for The group has drawn up draft recommendations on Energy and Climate Change whether feed-in tariffs for sedentary activities for all ages. These will be included solar photovoltaic energy vary by latitude. [41310] in updated Chief Medical Officer guidelines on physical activity, expected in spring 2011. Gregory Barker: No. Under the feed-in tariffs scheme, Cockermouth Community Hospital tariff levels were set through consideration of the technology costs and electricity generation expectations at different Tony Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for scales. The tariffs were set to deliver an approximate Health what his policy is on the rebuilding of Cockermouth rate of return of 5-8% for well sited installations. Community Health Hospital; and on what date he expects construction to begin. [40648] Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what information his Mr Simon Burns: The Department supports the national Department holds on the variation in (a) efficiency of health service in realising the potential of community and (b) payback periods for investment in solar services and recognises the health and wider benefits photovoltaic energy by latitude within the UK. [41311] community hospitals can bring to the local population. However, the re-development of the Cockermouth Gregory Barker: Under the feed-in tariff (FITs) scheme, community hospital is a matter for the local NHS in tariff levels were set through consideration of the technology Cumbria. Cumbria primary care trust can advise on the cost and electricity generation expectations at different current position of the development. 859W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 860W

Dentistry: Qualifications they can submit a policy proposal to the UK NSC. Further information is available on the UK NSC’s Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if website at: he will make it his policy to equalise the position of http://www.screening.nhs.uk/policyreview British and foreign citizens seeking to obtain access to discretionary recognition of qualifications for dental Food: Hygiene care professions; and if he will make a statement. [40809] Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many local authorities have launched Mr Simon Burns: We sympathise with dental care the Food Standards Agency national food hygiene rating professionals whose qualifications have not been approved scheme recommended in Lord Young’sreport, Common by the General Dental Council (GDC), but any extension Sense, Common Safety; [41201] of the limited powers the GDC has for discretionary recognition of qualifications would have significant resource (2) what progress has been made by the Food Standards implications for the council. It would be preferable if Agency in rolling out a national food hygiene rating these dental care professionals had the opportunity to scheme across local authorities as recommended in undergo additional training to meet the standards set Lord Young’s report, Common Sense, Common Safety; by the GDC. [41202] (3) whether the Food Standards Agency has launched Departmental Carbon Emissions the web-based database for local authorities to publish results of food hygiene rating scheme inspections recommended in Lord Young’s report, Common Sense, Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Common Safety. [41208] Health how much his Department spent on carbon offsetting in each of the last three years; and to which Anne Milton: The online search facility for the national companies payments for carbon offsetting were made food hygiene rating scheme being introduced by the in each such year. [40527] Food Standards Agency (FSA) went live on 1 October 2010. Mr Simon Burns: The Department offsets the carbon emissions resulting from our business air travel by The scheme was launched formally on 30 November contributing to the Government Carbon Offsetting Fund 2010 and, to date, 47 local authorities have started (GCOF). The GCOF aims to fulfil the Government’s to roll it out in their areas and are publishing ratings commitment to offset emissions attributable to all official online. This includes 28 in England, 18 in Wales and one and ministerial air travel in central Government. It is in Northern Ireland. By the end of June, it is anticipated available to all central Government Departments and that around 40% of local authorities in England, all provides a simple and cost-effective way to offset, as local authorities in Wales and around 70% of those in well as ensuring high environmental integrity. Northern Ireland will be operating the scheme. For the last three years, the Department paid: The FSA is encouraging and supporting as many more local authorities as possible to adopt the scheme. £ General Practitioners: Equality 2007-08 9,099 2008-09 9,117 2009-10 £0 John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether GP consortia will be subject to the general Payments were made to Trading Emissions plc. duties of the public sector equality duty under the Equality Act 2010. [41261] Food: Additives Mr Simon Burns: The Health and Social Care Bill will amend the Equality Act 2010 to include commissioning Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for consortia. Consortia will therefore be subject to the Health if he will assess the merits of providing routine general duties under the Equality Act 2010. screening for food intolerances to children from an early age. [41276] Genito-urinary Medicine Anne Milton: The UK National Screening Committee (UK NSC) advises Ministers and the national health Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health service in all four countries about all aspects of screening what steps he is taking to ensure that relevant commissioning policy and supports implementation. Using research expertise will be available for the provision of integrated evidence, pilot programmes and economic evaluation, it sexual health services by local authorities following assesses the evidence for programmes against a set of implementation of his proposed public health reforms. internationally recognised criteria. [40487] The UK NSC regularly reviews policy on screening for different conditions in the light of new research Anne Milton: On 21 December 2010, we published evidence becoming available. Where stakeholders of the “Healthy Lives, Healthy People: Consultation on the UK NSC feel that there is enough evidence published in funding and commissioning routes for public health”, a peer reviewed journals to consider screening for a condition copy of which has already been placed in the Library. 861W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 862W

The consultation makes proposals about the role of Both of these questions have been included each year local authorities (LAs) in commissioning comprehensive in both the General Lifestyle Survey (previously known open-access sexual health services using funds from the as the General Household Survey) and the Health ring-fenced public health budget. Survey for England. The ring-fenced public health grant will fund LAs to EQ5D. Five questions aim to establish the respondent’s general commission the integrated sexual health services they state of health and quality of life. In selected years, this has are responsible for. This means that it will fund those been included in the Health Survey for England. functions that are necessary for LAs to deliver their GHQ—12 questions aim to establish whether the respondent new public health responsibilities, including relevant has any mental health issues. In selected years, this has been commissioning expertise. These proposals are currently included in the Health Survey for England. subject to consultation which closes on 31 March. Warwick and Edinburgh Mental Wellbeing Score (WEMWBS). 14 questions aim to assess the respondent’s mental and overall In addition, a new sexual health strategy to be published wellbeing. This was included for the first time in the 2010 this year will set the broad future direction and priorities Health Survey for England and will also be included in the for sexual health. 2011 survey. A list of the questions included in the final three Health measures have been placed in the Library. The findings of the both the General Lifestyle Survey: Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/product.asp?vlnk=5756 what steps he is taking to ensure the impartiality of and the Health Survey for England: decision-making within local authorities in delivering www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/health-and- [40488] public health commissioning. lifestyles-related-surveys/health-survey-for-england are published online and are publicly available. Anne Milton: As set out in the Public Health White Paper “Healthy Lives, healthy People: Our strategy for public health in England”, directors of public health Health Services: Competition are to be employed in upper-tier councils and unitary authorities to lead local public health efforts and will Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State play the leading role in discharging local authorities’ for Health if he will ensure that competition in the public health functions. health sector is based on the quality of the supplier; and Directors of public health will be a statutory member if he will make a statement. [40860] alongside general practitioner commissioning consortia, local HealthWatch and other key partners on health Mr Simon Burns: In the new national health service, and well-being boards and as part of the local authority competition between providers will be a means, not an will play a key role in preparing the joint strategic needs end, to empower patients and staff, drive up responsiveness, assessment which will need to paint an objective picture outcome, improved quality and efficiency. of the health and social care needs of the local population. Our aim is for services to be commissioned from the The needs assessments will provide the basis for developing best provider(s) whether from the public, private or a joint health and well-being strategy, outlining how voluntary sector and for patients to have greater choice health and social care commissioners can meet the and control over their care. needs identified and should provide the overarching framework for local commissioning plans. Hospitals: Food Local democratic accountability to their local health populations, joint strategic working with other key partners and the focus on health outcomes aims to facilitate an Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for impartial and objective approach to public health Health what steps he plans to take to encourage hospitals commissioning. to comply with the Government Buying Standards for the public procurement of food and food services. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health [40836] whether his Department uses measures of health and well-being that involve self-reporting by individuals. Anne Milton: “The Operating Framework for the [40628] NHS in England 2011-12”, published on 15 December 2010, makes it clear that national health service Anne Milton: Self-reported measures of health and organisations are encouraged to consider the Government well-being are periodically included in a number of Buying Standards for food and catering when they are population-based surveys. The findings are used by the introduced at the end of March 2011. Department in developing and monitoring policy. The most frequently used measures on health and Hull and East Riding NHS Stop Smoking Service: wellbeing are: Correspondence General health and longstanding illness. These are primarily established by means of two main questions: Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Health How is your health in general? Would you say it was: very (1) how many unsolicited letters the Hull and East good/good/fair/bad/very bad? Riding NHS Stop Smoking Service has sent; and what Do you have any long-standing illness, disability or infirmity? the cost to the public purse, including postage, of sending Yesorno? such letters was; [41084] 863W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 864W

(2) whether the Hull and East Riding NHS Stop Paul Burstow: The Department has received, and Smoking Service attempted to ensure that the recent continues to receive, a large volume of correspondence letters it sent were not addressed to non-smokers. from stakeholders, and those living with this condition, [41163] on the definition and naming of chronic fatigue syndrome/ myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME). Anne Milton: Priorities are set by local national health During the Westminster Hall debate, on 4 February service Stop Smoking services for their own local 2011, I said that the World Health Organisation uses population. This is a matter for the City Health Care the composite term CFS/ME for this condition. This Partnership (CHCP), which runs the Hull and East was incorrect. Riding Stop Smoking Service on behalf of Hull Teaching The World Health Organisation classes benign myalgic Primary Care Trust (PCT) and East Riding of Yorkshire encephalomyelitis and post viral fatigue syndrome under PCT. I understand that my hon. Friend has already the same classification G93.3 ‘diseases of the nervous been in contact with the CHCP about this matter. system’; subheading ‘other disorders of the brain’. The report of the CFS/ME Working Group to-the Meat: Hygiene Chief Medical Officer, in January in 2002, suggested that the composite term CFS/ME be used as an umbrella Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Health term for this condition, or spectrum of disease. This (1) what estimates he has made of the cost to the term is also used by the National Institute for Health livestock industry in Wales of implementation of the and Clinical Excellence for their clinical guidelines. Food Standard Agency’s proposals for full cost recovery We do, however, intend to seek further advice on our of meat hygiene controls; [40819] classification and will update the hon. Member in due course. (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of the Food Standard Agency’s plans for full cost recovery of NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement meat hygiene controls at slaughterhouses on small and medium-sized abattoirs in Wales. [40820] Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to clause 262 of the Health and Social Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) has Care Bill, whether the functions of the NHS Institute consulted across the United Kingdom on proposals for will be incorporated into the Commissioning Board; full cost recovery by removal of current discounts, with and if he will make a statement. [40496] options for a phased introduction and a reduction in charges for low throughput businesses, and is committed Mr Simon Burns: The Department’s “Liberating the to reducing its own costs. NHS: Report of the arm’s length bodies review”(published 26 July 2010) looked to reduce bureaucracy and improve I am advised that on the basis of the information efficiency by better aligning the arm’s length bodies available prior to the consultation, the FSA estimated (ALBs) sector with the rest of the health and social care that full cost recovery for meat controls would cost the system. This is available at: Welsh meat industry approximately £2.2 million. In the www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ draft impact assessment, the FSA has assumed that PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_117691 slaughterhouses will absorb approximately one-third of The review found, in assessing the NHS Institute for the cost associated with full recovery charging and Innovation and Improvement’s current form and functions, farmers the remaining two-thirds. On this basis the that it did not satisfy the criteria to remain as an ALB, FSA estimates that slaughterhouses, including low as set out in the report. throughput establishments, will absorb approximately £0.73 million of the cost, and pass on £1.47 million to It was therefore decided to abolish the NHS Institute the livestock industry in Wales. The FSA will refine the for Innovation and Improvement as an ALB. The impact assessment in light of information received in Department is engaging with the NHS Institute for responses to the consultation. Innovation and Improvement to review and evaluate its remaining functions, with a view to determining whether 139 consultation responses have been received across opportunities exist for alternative commercial delivery UK, 20 in Wales, including 11 from Welsh slaughterhouses models, and whether or not to stop providing for certain of varying sizes, and FSA is in the process of considering functions altogether all responses prior to determining its advice to Government. The Health and Social Care Bill currently before Note: Parliament provides for the NHS Commissioning Board The FSA impact assessment has been published on the FSA to have a duty, in exercising its functions, to promote website at: innovation in both the provision of health services and http://food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/consultation/ approaches to commissioning them. This will enable the meatcharges1110eng.pdf NHS Commissioning Board to promote innovation as part of its role in providing national leadership for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis quality improvement in the national health service. NHS Outcomes Framework Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the Minister of State’s contribution on Emily Thornberry: To ask the Secretary of State for 4 February 2011, Official Report, column 327WH, on Health if he will include indicators on the incidence of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, what recent representations fragility fractures in older people in (a) the NHS his Department has received on the definition of CFS/ME. Outcomes Framework and (b) the Adult Social Care [41259] Outcomes Framework. [41280] 865W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 866W

Paul Burstow: On 20 December 2010, we published NHS: Market Research ‘The NHS Outcomes Framework 2011/12’, which will measure the overall progress of the national health Iain Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health service in delivering better health outcomes for patients. how much each (a) primary care trust and (b) strategic In the Framework, ‘Domain 3: Helping people to health authority spent on market research and opinion recover from episodes of ill health or following injury’, polling in 2009-10; and what estimate he has made of there is an improvement area which focuses on ‘improving such expenditure in 2010-11. [40957] recovery from fragility fractures’. The indicator ‘The proportion of patients recovering to their previous levels Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not of mobility/walking ability at (i) 30 days and (ii) 120 days’. held centrally. This indicator is replicated in the draft Adult Social Care Outcomes Framework to help align the unique NHS: Pensions contributions that the NHS and adult social care have in delivering outcomes for fragility fractures in older Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for people. Health what reports his Department has received from The draft Framework, on which we consulted from former NHS employees about administrative errors 16 November to 9 February 2011, also includes the associated with the processing of their pension in the indicator ‘the number of emergency hospital admissions last five years. [40962] for people aged 65 and older as a result of falls and injuries’, which is also relevant to improving outcomes Mr Simon Burns: NHS Pensions, the administrators for fragility fractures. of the NHS Pension scheme, received enquiries from former national health service employees about the non As with all measures in the draft Framework, inclusion payment of interest where it was due under the Scheme in the final Adult Social Care Outcomes Framework for regulations. An administrative exercise was undertaken 2011/12 is subject to the level of support received via to trawl and pay interest to members for all cases where the consultation from councils, people using the services it was due. and their carers, providers, user-led organisations and others. We will publish a consultation response this NHS: Private Sector spring setting out what people have said and how we have reflected this in the final Framework; as well as in our broader proposals to bring transparency to social Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Health care quality and outcomes. (1) what consideration he has given to allowing private health providers to take ownership of NHS property under his proposals for NHS reform; and if he will NHS: Drugs make a statement; [40494] (2) what consideration he has given to the transferral of NHS property to private health providers under his Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals for NHS reform; and if he will make a Health pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member statement. [40495] for Pudsey of 27 January 2011, Official Report, (a) column 468W, on the NHS: drugs, if he will assess Mr Simon Burns: On 6 January 2011, the Department the effectiveness of the unwanted and wasted medicines announced that the primary care trust-owned estate (b) campaign run by Brighton and Hove Link and the that is required to deliver the commissioned services potential of such campaigns to reduce (i) the quantity will be made available to first and second wave aspirant of wasted medicines and (ii) the dangers such drugs community foundation trusts. The Department is currently pose; and if he will make a statement. [40673] examining the implications for the management and ownership of the remaining estate following the dissolution Mr Simon Burns: We take the issue of waste medicines of primary care trusts in 2013. An announcement will very seriously. Local initiatives such as the one run by be made when this has been completed. Brighton and Hove Local Involvement Network, can play an important part in raising awareness of the issue The acute sector estate is owned by foundation and of waste medicines with local populations and health national health service trusts. The White Paper “Equity care professionals. and excellence: Liberating the NHS” proposes that the latter will become foundation trusts by 2013-14. These The Department commissioned the York Health reforms will not otherwise affect the property holding Economics Consortium and the School of Pharmacy at arrangements in the NHS acute sector. the University of London to carry out research to determine the scale, causes and cost of waste medicines Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in England. The report, ‘Evaluation of the Scale, Causes whether any limit will be imposed on the amount of and Costs of Waste Medicines’, was published by the private income a Foundation Trust can earn as a proportion researchers on 23 November 2010. of its overall income under his proposals for NHS The Department and key interested parties took part reform; and if he will make a statement. [40497] in a round table event hosted by the King’s Fund on 20 January 2011 to discuss possible actions that could Mr Simon Burns: The Government have decided to be taken forward either nationally or locally. Local use the Bill to remove the private patient cap, which is initiatives, such as the one in Brighton, will help to both arbitrary and unfair in its effects: giving extensive inform our future work programme on reducing waste freedoms to some trusts and imposing tight constraints and improving health outcomes. on others, based solely on the historical accident of how 867W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 868W much private income they earned in 2002-03. The commissioners and providers to work together in an Government are not persuaded that there is a case for area that is critical to delivering local Quality, Innovation, imposing a new limit in the Bill on the amount of Productivity and Prevention plans. These measures are private income a foundation trust can earn as a proportion critical for ensuring that the NHS maintains a strong of its overall income. The Bill would not change a financial position, to get the new system on the right foundation trust’s principal purpose of providing goods footing from the outset. and services for the purposes of the national health service in England. NHS: Standards

Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will ensure that NHS patients do not wait longer what safeguards he plans to put in place to maintain for treatment as result of the removal of the private quality of care in the NHS in the light of cost income cap for Foundation Trusts; and if he will make pressures; and if he will make a statement. [40500] a statement. [40501] Mr Simon Burns: The Operating Framework for the Mr Simon Burns: There is no reason to believe that NHS in England set out the Department’s plans for removing the cap would disadvantage national health maintaining and improving the quality of care. Specifically, service patients. A foundation trust’s principal purpose it says (paragraph 4.3, page 31) that will remain the provision of goods and services for the “as part of this NHS Operating Framework, we have developed a purposes of the NHS. The Bill proposes reforms that list of key indicators against which PCTs and clusters will be held would strengthen a foundation trust’s governance to account during 2011-12. The list is included as an annex to this NHS Operating Framework and brings together key performance arrangements. It would ensure greater transparency indicators to support quality, innovation, productivity and prevention and accountability to enable the governors and members efficiencies; indicators relating to new commitments and reform; to ensure that a foundation trust is managed in the best and clinically relevant indicators from existing measures”. interests of the public and its NHS patients. A copy of the Framework has already been placed in NHS: Reorganisation the Library and is available on the Department’s website at: Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/ Health what assessment he has made of the likely @dh/@en/@ps/documents/digitalasset/dh_122736.pdf status of the NHS as a protected state service under the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State relevant European directives under his proposals for for Health if he will assess the merits of maintaining NHS reform. [40657] process targets which have a relationship to health outcomes; and if he will make a statement. [40859] Anne Milton: As we develop the national health service reform proposals we are assessing where European Union Mr Simon Burns: The White Paper “Equity and Excellence: law will have an impact and what the position will be Liberating the NHS”set out how the Government would with respect to a health system that will remain funded introduce a new system of accountability for the national by the taxpayer and providing universal coverage, free health service based around the outcomes achieved for at the point of need. patients. As part of this, the first ever NHS Outcomes Framework was published on 20 December 2010. This Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State framework will be used by the Secretary of State to hold for Health how he will ensure that his Department’s the proposed NHS Commissioning Board to account proposals for health and social care reform will not for its role in overseeing the commissioning of NHS create a risk of loss of financial control; and if he will services. make a statement. [40861] It will be for the NHS Commissioning Board to Mr Simon Burns: The maintenance of financial control translate the national outcomes into outcomes and during transition and the effective design of financial indicators that are meaningful at a local level, and it control in the new health landscape will remain a key may choose to include process measures in the tools and objective as we implement the health reforms. levers it will have its disposal. Putting in place the right processes of care is critical to securing improved outcomes. The NHS Operating Framework 2011/12, published However, these should be determined by expert bodies on 15 December 2010, outlines the business and planning and healthcare professionals rather than politicians. In arrangements for the national health service over the line with this, the National Institute for Health and transition year 2011-12. It describes the national priorities, Clinical Excellence have begun building a broad library system levers and enablers needed to build strong of quality standards which will set out the processes foundations set out in “Equity and excellence: Liberating and structures of care that should be put in place for a the NHS”, and to maintain and improve quality, while particular care pathway in order to achieve high quality keeping tight financial control and delivering the quality outcomes. and productivity challenge at a time of significant change. The Operating Framework sets out how tight financial Nurses: Pay control will be maintained during 2011-12. Primary care trusts will continue to be required to invest 2%, of John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Health their budgets non-recurrently in order to create financial what assessment he has made of the effect of the public flexibility and headroom to support change. The marginal sector pay freeze on the payment of annual increments rate of tariff payment for emergency admissions above to NHS nurses who earn less than £21,000 per annum. baseline thresholds will be maintained, incentivising [40716] 869W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 870W

Mr Simon Burns: The starting pay for a qualified as a proportion of the number of live births in each nurse is £21,176 per annum full time equivalent. year since 2000. [37850] There is currently no national freeze on incremental Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. progression although there have been discussions between national health service employers and NHS trade unions The information requested falls within the responsibility on a National Enabling Framework to support local of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority agreements to guarantee no compulsory redundancies to reply. in return for suspending incremental payments. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Patient Choice Schemes have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what estimate has been made of the number of mothers who suffered from a post-natal mental health problem as a proportion Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of the number of live births in each year since 2000. (37850) if he will ensure that patient choice will continue to be The Office for National Statistics does not hold the information determined on the basis of clinical need rather than requested. price or competition law under his proposals for NHS reform; and if he will make a statement. [40498] Prostate Cancer

Mr Simon Burns: The decision to refer a patient for Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) national health service treatment is a clinical one and with reference to the report prepared for his Department, will remain so. Services will be commissioned according One to one support for cancer patients, what steps he is to the clinical needs of the population, but in a way taking to address the gap in the provision of one to one which allows service users appropriate choice of treatment support workers for men with prostate cancer identified and provider. in the report; [41094] (2) what steps he is taking to implement the national Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Health clinical audit of prostate cancer referred to in what the implications for patient choice are of lifting Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer. [41137] the competition exemption for the NHS under EU requirements; and if he will make a statement. [40499] Paul Burstow: ‘One to One Support for Cancer Patients’ shows that, in many scenarios, the savings that can be Mr Simon Burns: The use of competition in the achieved through improved co-ordination of care can national health service is not about establishing normal outweigh the costs of dedicated support roles. These commercial markets under price competition, and savings include reductions in emergency bed days, reductions competition is not an end in itself. in routine follow-up appointments, and reductions in The Government are focusing on using competition general practitioner visits. to enhance quality and choice in the system, in most The findings of the report are intended to assist local instances using NHS tariff or pricing arrangements. decision making and support the continued expansion For some services, where the delivery of care is essential in one to one support for all cancer patients, including (e.g. rural ambulance and emergency), competition will those with prostate cancer. It is for local national health be more limited—if it exists at all. service organisations to decide whether to invest in new one to one support roles, and we have welcomed the Our aim is for services to be commissioned from the recent announcement by Macmillan Cancer Support providers who are best placed to deliver the needs of that they will invest up £300 million to pump prime their patients and populations. Commissioners and additional one to one support posts over the next seven providers should also ensure that patients have accurate to 10 years. and reliable information, so that they can exercise more choice and control over their health care. We will build on ‘One to One Support for Cancer Patients’ to provide further evidence to support the Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS to develop new one to one support posts. We will Health by what mechanism patients will be able to highlight issues that service providers and commissioners choose any healthcare provider under his proposals for need to consider as part of work force planning. GP commissioning. [40656] Regarding the implementation of a prostate cancer audit, a process to select topics for an extended national Mr Simon Burns: We expect the ability of patients to clinical audit and patient outcomes programme will choose services to be extended through the introduction begin shortly. We will consult widely and consider all of any willing provider as part of the implementation of representations before decisions are taken in the autumn. the Government’s proposals on choice. The NHS Schizophrenia Commissioning Board will have overall responsibility for ensuring that commissioning consortia deliver a Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health choice of provider. Further details of how the choice what the number of diagnosed schizophrenics of each offer will develop will be given in the response to the (a) age group and (b) sex there were in each region in choice consultation in the spring. each of the last 30 years. [41127]

Postnatal Depression Paul Burstow: We do not collect this information centrally. However, the “Adult Psychiatric Morbidity in Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health England, 2007” survey does contain some of the what estimate he has made of the number of mothers information requested. This publication has already who suffered from a post-natal mental health problem been placed in the Library. 871W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 872W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS particular localities, for example, in rural communities, the agency will consider whether alternative arrangements should be made. Adult Education 1 Available at: http://readingroom.skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk/sfa/ Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for skills_funding_agency_-_guidance_note_6_final_-v2_.pdf Business, Innovation and Skills whether his review of informal adult learning will include consideration of Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) the transparency of and (b) mechanisms for Business, Innovation and Skills whether the process of allocating funding for informal adult and community reviewing and reinvigorating informal adult learning learning. [39601] will include a review of the funding process for informal adult and community learning. [40927]

Mr Hayes: In November 2010, “Skills for Sustainable Mr Hayes: In November 2010, “Skills for Sustainable Growth” announced that the adult safeguarded learning Growth” announced that we would protect the Adult budget of £210 million per annum for informal adult Safeguarded Learning budget of £210 million per annum and community learning would be protected and that for informal adult and community learning and that we informal adult and community learning would be reformed would re-invigorate and reform informal adult and in order to: community learning to support the big society and to help build the big society, through learning for personal foster learning and progression for individuals, families development, mental/physical health, digital inclusion, democratic and communities. Over the coming months we will engagement, family learning etc. work closely with partners to consider how public funding engage and motivate disadvantaged groups and create progression can be refocused and reprioritised for the people who pathways towards the wider learning continuum, including need the most help and have had the fewest opportunities. skills-focused learning and employment. I refer my hon. Friend to his question tabled on Over the coming months BIS will hold a series of 7 February 2011 (39061) which I answered today. policy round table meetings, including one with a specific focus on funding. We will work closely with a wide range of partners, including representative bodies, local Citizens Advice Bureaux authorities, colleges and other learning providers to consider how to address historical funding imbalances Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for and how best to fund informal adult and community Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has learning in future. had with ministerial colleagues on the future of citizens advice bureaux. [41032] Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) whether local Mr Davey: Government value highly the work of the authority adult community education services will be citizens advice service but funding for citizens advice exempt from the Skills Funding Agency’s minimum bureaux is not a matter for central Government but for local authorities who are better able to determine the contract value proposals; [39603] structure and level of funding of advice services in their (2) whether local authority adult community education area which meets local needs. The Government do not, services will be exempt from the Skills Funding Agency’s however, expect local authorities to respond to this minimum contact value arrangements. [40926] freedom by passing on disproportionate cuts to other service providers, especially the voluntary sector. Mr Hayes: We announced in “Investing Skills for Due to concerns raised by the hon. Member for Sustainable Growth” in November 2010 that a minimum Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) about funding contract level (MCL) was being introduced for the decisions by Birmingham city council and the threat 2011/12 academic year as part of our commitment to that decision might pose to the sustainability of the create a streamlined and more efficient FE system. In local citizens advice bureaux, I addressed those concerns an environment of declining budgets, it has become and the Government’s response in an adjournment increasingly difficult for small providers to operate without debate in Westminster Hall on 9 February 2011, Official realising the efficiencies of shared services or economies Report, column 129WH. of scale through collaboration or subcontracting. The Skills Funding Agency also needs to become more Citizens Advice: Finance efficient and streamlined. The Skills Funding Agency (SFA) published Guidance Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 1 Note 6 (16 December 2010), which gives further detail Innovation and Skills how much central Government on the implementation of a minimum contract level funding has been allocated to Citizens Advice in each of (MCL) for the 2011/12 academic year. Guidance Note 6 the last five years. [40365] provides a list of the types of college/training organisation/ employer that would be exempt from the application of Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation the MCL due to the specific nature of the contractual and Skills (BIS) provides core grant in aid funding to relationships that the SFA has with them. Local authorities Citizen Advice (CitA), the umbrella body for the Citizen are not automatically exempt from the introduction of Advice Service in England and Wales, and to Citizen the MCL. Advice Scotland. Core funding for the individual citizen Where there is a risk of specialist provision being advice bureaux is typically provided by their local authority, lost, or a significant impact on the choice available in not central Government. 873W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 874W

Over previous years BIS has also provided programme Further information could be provided only at funding to Citizen Advice under the financial inclusion disproportionate cost. fund (for face to face debt advice project) and to both Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 15 December 2010: Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland under the The Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation additional hours of advice (AHA) project. BIS also and Skills has asked me to reply to your question what steps (a) committed in the last spending review (SR07) to provide his Department, (b) its agencies and (c) the non-departmental programme funding to Citizens Advice Scotland to aid public bodies for which he is responsible have taken to comply in the development and roll-out of a case recording with the Guidance of the Office of Government Commerce on system (CASTLE) to be used across the bureaux network promoting skills through public procurement issued in 2009. in Scotland. The Insolvency Service Executive Agency of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills adheres to current guidance Citizens advice funding by following Office of Government Commerce (OGC) £ recommendations, liaising with Buying Solutions specialists. It Financial Additional utilises OGC framework agreements where possible and advertises BIS core inclusion hours contracts via the Official Journal of the European Union where funding fund project Total the whole-life value of the goods and services mandates this route. 2009/10 21,470,000 18,579,000 7,500,000 47,549,000.00 The Insolvency Service is now embedding the Cabinet Office’s 2008/09 21,470,000 17,949,000 2,500,000 41,919,000 ‘Principles of Good Employment Practice’ into its processes. In 2007/08 21,470,000 13,071,000 — 34,541,000 undertaking procurement activities, our trained procurement staff 2006/07 21,470,000 15,443,000 — 36,913,000 are mindful of small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) and 2005/06 23,605,000 — — 23,605,000 are members of the Chartered Institute of Purchasing & Supply (CIPS). Citizens advice Scotland The Insolvency Service recently contacted all our suppliers of Additional goods and services to encourage them to sign up to the Skills hours/credit Pledge. Core grant CASTLE crunch Letter from Geof Russell, dated 15 December 2010: in aid project project Total The majority of activity procured by the Skill Funding Agency 2009/10 3,124,000 238,000 — 3,362,000 (the Agency) is for education and vocational training rather than 2008/09 3,018,000 371,000 — 3,389,000 the provision of goods and services. All procurement of this 2007/08 2,916,000 100,000 — 3,016,000 activity will in future be undertaken through the Agency’s Approved College and Training Organisation Register (ACTOR). Through 2006/07 2,916,000 — — 2,916,000 this process the Agency ensures that providers that hold Agency 2005/06 3,024,000 — — 3,024,000 contracts are committed to developing the skills of their staff. This includes monitoring those organisations that have Investors in People or the Training Quality Standard (TQS). Through the Departmental Procurement procurement process the Agency ensures that organisations use skilled staff for the delivery of education and training and commit Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State to the continuous professional development of their staff. Furthermore, all trainers, verifiers and guidance suppliers are required to have for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps (a) his formal qualifications, in order to practise. Department, (b) its agencies and (c) the non-departmental In terms of the procurement of goods and service provision public bodies for which he is responsible have taken to the Agency uses collaborative procurement where possible. These comply with the Guidance of the Office of Government are purchased through pan-government frameworks, where the Commerce on promoting skills through public procurement evaluation criteria (and all references to skills requirements, provision issued in 2009. [31316] of apprenticeship places, and contract terms and conditions) are actually set by other public sector bodies. Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation Where the Agency does issue bespoke tenders, the goods and and Skills (BIS) adheres to applicable guidance published services tendering documentation has been updated to encourage its suppliers to support developing the skills of their staff, and by the Office of Government Commerce. where relevant, the use of Apprenticeships. The need to embed This Department utilises Buying Solutions and other skills and Apprenticeships is considered separately for each frameworks where possible. In such cases the responsibility procurement and, where relevant, the wording and evaluation for incorporating such considerations lies with the body criteria are strengthened. responsible for establishing the framework. Letter from Peter Mason, dated 19 January 2011: BIS’ facilities management service partners are I am responding in respect of the National Measurement contractually required to demonstrate active support to Office (NMO) to your Parliamentary Question tabled 15 December 2010, asking the Secretary of State, Department for Business, staff to improve their adult basic skills. This must Innovation and Skills, what steps (b) its Agencies and (c) the non include an initial assessment of staff and where found departmental public bodies for which he is responsible have taken not to meet the criteria the service partner must make to comply with the Guidance of the Office of Government available suitable arrangements for appropriate training Commerce on promoting skills through public procurement issued to assist them in attaining at least the basic level as part in 2009. of their individual training plans. NMO takes OGC Guidance into account when carrying out The Government’s skills strategy, published on its procurement activities and in its most recent large procurement exercise, the first since this particular guidance was issued, bidders 16 November, set out how BIS will also work with were explicitly scored on the extent to which they had a formal public sector bodies to encourage and support them to training plan for the development of their workforce. use public procurement as a lever to raise employers’ Letter from Gareth Jones, dated 24 January 2011: engagement with skills and apprenticeships. I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary I have asked chief executives of the Executive agencies Question tabled 13 December 2010, UIN 31316 to the Secretary to respond directly to the hon. Member. of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. 875W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 876W

Companies House’s contracts are awarded in accordance with are currently working through the model of how the all relevant procurement legislation but, because of the nature of proposals will operate in the 2011-12 academic year and our business requirements, there are very few services for which will have detailed discussions as the proposals develop. we contract where promoting apprenticeships are applicable. The Skills Conditionality consultation (which was a However, we have made full use of apprentice resource as part of our current Building Maintenance Contract. joint consultation led by both BIS and DWP) closed on 3 February. Both Departments are currently working Letter from John Alty, dated 10 February 2011: through the responses and, following the publication of I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office the Government’s response to the consultation, will be (IPO) to your Parliamentary Question tabled 13 December 2010, continuing to engage with the sector (including colleges asking the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation & Skills, what steps (b) its agencies and (c) the non departmental and training providers) as we work up detailed proposals public bodies for which he/she is responsible have taken to comply for implementation. with the Guidance of the Office of Government Commerce on Employment Schemes: Further Education promoting skills through public procurement issued in 2009. In line with central government guidance, the IPO use collaborative framework arrangements for goods and services wherever possible, Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for and in these instances the supplier selection (and other evaluation) Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding he criteria are decided upon by other public sector organisations plans to allocate to colleges for the purposes of providing when setting up the framework. Where the IPO issue bespoke training for those who have been out of work for six tender requirements, our documentation will reflect the guidance months or more in the 2011-12 academic year. [41139] by promoting skills and apprenticeships where relevant to the requirement. We have also specifically addressed this as part of our overall procurement strategy, along with other corporate Mr Hayes: As set out in Investing in ‘Skills for 1 social responsibility obligations. Sustainable Growth’ on 16 November 2010 the total Skills Funding Agency programme budget will be £3.4 billion Employment Schemes in 2011-12 financial year. As a part of the spending review we have had to look Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for hard at the rationale for funding adult skills training Business, Innovation and Skills (1) which colleges he and have been clear that we must do all that we can to expects to participate in the job outcome pilot scheme support people enter the labour market. This is why full in 2011-12 [41140] funding will be focused on people who are actively (2) whether funding for job outcome pilot schemes seeking work—recipients of jobseekers allowance (JSA) will be ring-fenced in the 2011-12 academic year; or employment support allowance (Work Related Activity [41141] Group; ESA (WRAG). (3) how many people he expects to participate in the It is not for us to attempt to plan the delivery of job outcomes pilot scheme in academic year 2011-12; further education and skills from the top down. Instead, [41143] our simplification agenda will set colleges and training organisations free to respond to local need, giving Jobcentre (4) whether the funding allocated to colleges under Plus and employers a key role in shaping both the the job outcomes scheme will be dependent on participants volume and content of provision for this group. We entering employment after training. [41144] expect that the availability of fee remission for those on JSA or ESA (WRAG) will itself make them attractive Mr Hayes: As outlined in ‘Investing in Skills for group for colleges and training organisations. In addition Sustainable Growth’, as part of our approach to simplifying we announced in the Skills Investment Strategy plans to the system, while ensuring it continues to deliver more incentivise delivery of training for people who are for individuals and employers, we are introducing outcome unemployed through the piloting of new job outcome incentive payments. In the 2011/12 academic year the payments for FE colleges and training organisations. Skills Funding Agency will trial this approach through 1 the introduction of a job outcome payment. I have http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further-education-skills/ docs/s/10-1272-strategy-investing-in-skills-for-sustainable- asked the chief executive of the Skills Funding Agency growth.pdf to write to you to provide you with further details about this pilot with a copy of the responses being placed in Higher Education: Admissions the House. Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation and Skills whether higher education institutions Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what discussions he charging more than £6,000 tuition fees for degree courses has had with the Department for Work and Pensions on from 2012 will be required to join the National Scholarship the operation of the job outcome pilot scheme in the Scheme. [40146] 2011-12 academic year; [41142] (2) what discussions (a) he and (b) his Department Mr Willetts: All universities that want to charge a have had with the Department for Work and Pensions graduate contribution above £6,000 will be obliged to on the implications of the job outcomes scheme pilot participate in the National Scholarship Programme (NSP). for that Department’s consultation on skills conditionality. Broad details were announced on Thursday 10 February [41145] and information was placed in the Libraries of the House. Mr Hayes: We have been working closely with both the Department for Work and Pensions and Jobcentre Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Plus on the operation of job outcome incentive payments. Innovation and Skills whether all higher education Both have welcomed the principle of the payments. We institutions charging more than £6,000 in annual tuition 877W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 878W fees will be eligible to join the National Scholarship areas ordered from ‘1’ (those wards with the lowest Scheme from 2012. [40212] participation) to ‘5’ (those wards with the highest participation), each representing 20% of UK young Mr Willetts: Yes. All higher education institutions, cohort. Students have been allocated to the neighbourhoods whatever they charge, will be eligible to join the National on the basis of their postcode. Those students whose Scholarship Programme, and those that want to charge postcode falls within wards with the lowest participation above the £6,000 threshold will be obliged to participate. (quintile 1) are denoted as being from a low participation neighbourhood. Higher Education: Disadvantaged More information and the latest figures for the Performance Indicators can be found at the following Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, link: Innovation and Skills what the purpose is of the access http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php/content/category/2/32/141/ performance indicators identified in paragraph 6.1 of the guidance to the Director of Fair Access; and what Human Rights and Transnational Corporations the definition is of (a) lower socio-economic classes and (b) low-participation neighbourhoods. [41318] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the outcomes were of his Mr Willetts: Following the recommendations of the meeting with the UN Special Representative on Human National Committee of Inquiry into Higher Education, Rights and Transnational Corporations on 10 January the Government asked the funding councils to develop 2011. [41250] suitable indicators and benchmarks of performance in the higher education sector. The Performance Indicators Mr Davey: At our meeting on 10 January, John Steering Group (PISG) was established on behalf of the Ruggie and I discussed the focus of the Department’s Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE). recent consultation on narrative reporting and the Membership of the group is drawn from Government Government’s intention to bring forward proposals shortly. Departments, the funding councils and representative Professor Ruggie also updated me on his work in relation bodies. Since 2002/03, the Higher Education Statistics to the draft Guiding Principles for the implementation Agency (HESA) has published the Performance Indicators of the UN ‘Protect, Respect and Remedy’ framework. I (PIs) HEFCE will continue to further develop the PIs conveyed the UK’s support for Professor Ruggie’s work under the auspices of PISG. in relation to this project. The indicators are designed to provide reliable information on the nature and performance of the National Regional Development Agency Transition higher education sector in the UK and a consistent set Programme Board of measures of this performance. This will contribute to a greater public accountability by the sector, as well as Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, ensure that policy decisions can be made on the basis of Innovation and Skills for what reasons the decision was consistent and reliable information. made to include representatives from One North East, The information on socio-economic classification is Advantage West Midlands and the East Midlands taken from the National Statistics Socio-Economic Development Agency on the National Regional Classification (NS-SEC). The classifications used are: Development Agency Transition Programme Board. [41313] 1. Higher managerial and professional occupations 2. Lower managerial and professional occupations Mr Prisk: A meeting of the regional development 3. Intermediate occupations agency chief executives selected the chief executives of 4. Small employers and own account workers Advantage West Midlands and East Midlands Development 5. Lower supervisory and technical occupations Agency as their representatives on the National Regional 6. Semi-routine occupations Development Agency Transition Board in July 2010. 7. Routine occupations The chief executive of One North East attends as One North East is the current ‘Chair of Chairs’ (the chief The performance indicator is the proportion of students Government liaison) for the RDA network. from NS-SEC classes 4 to 7 out of those from NS-SEC 1-7. Pharmaceutical Industry The low participation neighbourhood indicator has been produced using POLAR2 (Participation of Local Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, AReas). This method is based on the HE participation Innovation and Skills what meetings he or Ministers of rates of people who were aged 18 between 2000 and his Department has had with representatives of the 2004 and entered a HE course in a UK higher education pharmaceutical industry since May 2010; with whom in institution or GB further education college, aged 18 or each case; and what the (a) purpose and (b) location of 19, between academic years 2000/01 and 2005/06. It each such meeting was. [39136] draws on data provided by the Higher Education Statistics Agency, the Learning and Skills Council, the Universities Mr Willetts: On 16 June, the Minister of State, and Colleges Admissions Service, the other UK funding Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the bodies and HM Revenue and Customs. hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), The POLAR2 classification is formed by ranking attended the BioPharmaceutical Ministerial Industry 2001 Census Area Statistics wards by their young Strategy Group (MISG), co-chaired alternately by David participation rates for the combined 2000 to 2004 cohorts. Brennan of AstraZeneca and the Secretary of State for This gives five young participation quintile groups of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South 879W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 880W

Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley). MISG’s purpose is for I attended meetings of the Pharmaceutical Ministerial the Biopharmaceutical Industry and Government to Industry Strategy Group (MISG) and the Ministerial engage on strategic issues. The meeting was held at the Medical Technology Strategy Group (MMTSG) in Department of Health, Richmond House, Whitehall, November 2010. The meetings were held at the Department London. MISG members are shown in List 1. of Health, Richmond House, Whitehall, London. On 21 June, I attended the Ministerial Medical On 15 October, I visited the Pfizer Biotech Packaging Technology Strategy Group (MMTSG). MMTSG’s Facility at Havant and met Richard Blackburn, Managing purpose is for the Medical Technology Industry and the Director at Pfizer UK; Jim Neville, Site Lead at Havant; Government to engage on strategic issues. The meeting David Bevan, Head of Specialty Care Business Unit was held at the Department of Health, Richmond UK; and Lou Schmukler, Pfizer Global Senior Vice House, Whitehall, London. MMTSG members are shown President Packaging and Manufacturing. The purpose in List 2. of the visit was to open a state-of-the-art biotechnology In July 2010, the Secretary of State for Business, packaging facility in which Pfizer invested £26.3 million. Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), the Minister of State (Mark I met Dr Husseini Manji, Global Head of Neuroscience Prisk) and the Under-Secretary of State (Baroness Wilcox) Research at Johnson and Johnson on 23 November attended a Business Summit for Investors in the UK at 2010 to discuss UK neuroscience research. On 5 November Lancaster House which included a round-table meeting 2010 I met Brad Sauer, Executive Vice President of 3M at which the following life sciences companies were Healthcare to discuss 3M’s healthcare interests in the present: 3M (Garry Stapleton), Amgen (Jeremy Haigh), UK. On 18 January 2011 I met Patrick Vallance, Head Genzyme (Steve Bates), Johnson and Johnson (Colin of Drug Discovery at GSK to discuss issues relating to Morgan), Medtronic (Geoff Morris), Pfizer (Alistair research and collaboration. Strachan), Quintiles (Andrew Szanto), Sanofi-Aventis (Manjit Rahelu) and Takeda (Steve Coles). The purpose I met Ian Read, President and CEO of Pfizer on of the summit was to announce the UK’s Foreign 24 January 2011 at 10 Downing street when Mr Read Direct Investment Results for 2009/10, to highlight the informed the Government, in confidence, of Pfizer’s strength of the UK as an investment destination, and decision to close its facility at Sandwich. for Government to capture strategic investors’ views on On 7 February 2011 I visited Pfizer’s site at Sandwich. the UK offer to investors to guide future strategy I met Ruth McKernan (Chief Scientific Officer) and development. various Pfizer employees to discuss the proposed closure The Secretary of State led a trade mission to Brazil in of the Pfizer facility. September 2010 to promote UK business interests. GSK’s Senior Vice President in Latin America, Rogerio Ribeiro Also on 7 February 2011, I hosted together with my (based in Rio) participated. noble Friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Quality at the Department of Health (Earl Baroness Wilcox met with GSK in September to Howe), a meeting of the Senior Industry Group (SIG). discuss how intellectual property impacts upon the The SIG forum was established to complement the Pharmaceutical sector. Eddie Gray, President, work of the Ministerial Industry (bio-pharmaceutical) Pharmaceuticals Europe, and Jon Pender, Director of Strategy Group (MISG) and the Ministerial Medical Government Affairs, attended. Technology Strategy Group (MMTSG). The purpose In November 2010, the Secretary of State led a trade of the meeting was to discuss the Healthcare and Life mission to Russia to promote UK business interests. Sciences Growth Review. The meeting was held at the Michael Crow, GSK’s Senior Vice President Russia and Department for Business Innovation and Skills, 1 Victoria Developing Markets Eurasia, participated in the mission. street, London. Those who attended are shown in List 3. GSK signed an agreement with a company called Binnopharm for the local secondary manufacture of a On 8 February 2011, I hosted a roundtable with number of GSK vaccines. The Secretary of State attended Venture Capitalists and Ruth McKernan (chief scientific the signing, alongside GSK’s then Vice President and officer of Pfizer) to discuss the Pfizer site at Sandwich. General Manager for Russia, Fabio Landazabal. The meeting was held at the Department for Business As the Minister responsible for life sciences within Innovation and Skills, 1 Victoria street, London. BIS, I have had regular contact with representatives of On Wednesday 9 February 2011, the Secretary of the pharmaceutical sector on a range of issues including State and I met representatives of Pfizer as part of a on the long-term future for the sector and on related Local Economic Task Force formed in response to initiatives such as the Healthcare and Life Sciences Pfizer’s decision to close its facility at Sandwich. The Growth Review, as well as discussing issues with the meeting included representatives of Kent county council recently appointed life sciences business adviser, Chris and my hon. Friends, the Members for North Thanet Brinsmead at the Department for Business, Innovation (Mr Gale), South Thanet (Laura Sandys), Canterbury and Skills in London. (Mr Brazier), Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) Specifically, I met representatives of the ABPI (Richard and Dover (Charlie Elphicke). Barker), BIA (Nigel Gaymond ), ABHI (Peter Ellingworth) and BIVDA (Doris Ann Williams) in September at the The Secretary of State met Dr John Lechleiter, Chairman, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, 1 Victoria President and Chief Executive Officer of Eli Lilly and street, London. The purpose of the meeting was to Co. Ltd., Ramona Sequeira, Managing Director, Lilly engage with life sciences industry bodies on strategic UK and Rick Ascroft, Director of Corporate Affairs, issues which will help maintain the UK as a competitive Lilly UK on Thursday 10 February at the Department location for life sciences business and on its future for Business, Innovation and Skills, in London to discuss growth potential. Eli Lilly’s interests in the UK. 881W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 882W

List 1: Ministerial (Bio-Pharmaceutical) Industry Strategy Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Quality, Department Group Membership of Health (Earl Howe) Government Attendees Secretary of State for Health (co-chair) (Rt Hon Andrew Chris Brinsmead, Life Sciences Business Adviser Lansley MP) Michael Hunt, ReNeuron Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Rt Hon Jeremy Haigh, Amgen Vince Cable MP) Matthew Speers, UCB Minister for Universities and Science (Department for Business, Dr Mark Lloyd-Davies, Johnson and Johnson Innovation and Skills) (Rt Hon David Willetts MP) Simon Cartmell, OSspray Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Quality (Department Sue Middleton, GSK of Health) (Earl Howe) Bettina Fitt, GE Healthcare Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon) Nick Dusic, Pfizer Members Nick Burgin, Eisai David Brennan (co-chair), British Pharma Group (CEO, Astra Peter Ellingworth, ABHI Zeneca) Doris Ann Williams, BIVDA Richard Barker, ABPI Director General Nigel Gaymond, BIA John Young, American Pharma Group and Pfizer Ltd Richard Barker, ABPI Clive Dix, Chair BioIndustry Association (Chairman, Modern John Stageman, ABPI and TSB Biosciences plc) Aisling Burnand, Cancer Research UK Simon Jose, President, ABPI (General Manager and Senior Vice President GSK UK Ltd Joe Wildy, Director of Public Affairs and Policy, BIA Eddie Gray, British Pharma Group, President, Pharma Europe, Mark Wilkinson, NHS GlaxoSmithKline William Burns, European Medicines Group, Head of Post Office Mutualisation Pharmaceutical International Operations F Hoffman, La Roche Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Haruo Naito, Japanese Pharma Group, President of Eisai Co. Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has Ltd. had with representatives of the Post Office workforce Joint Secretariat on his proposals for Post Office mutualisation. [41563] Department of Health Mr Davey: Co-operatives UK are currently seeking British Pharma Group the views of all Post Office Ltd’s major stakeholders on List 2: Ministerial Medical Technology Strategy Group proposals for Post Office mutualisation. They will be Membership providing a report to Ministers in the spring with options Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health for a how a mutualised Post Office might work. The (Co-Chair) (Earl Howe) relevant unions have been actively involved in their Minister of State for Universities and Science, Department for research, and individual sub postmasters have also Business Innovation and Skills (BIS) (Rt Hon David Willetts participated, as well as staff of Post Office Ltd. I have MP) had no substantive discussions on this issue with any Industry trade unions or with Post Office Ltd since Co-operatives Colin Morgan, Regional Vice President, Johnson and Johnson UK began their work. MDD (Co-Chair) Simon Cartmell, Chairman, Osspray Ltd Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has Bettina Fitt, General Manager, UK and Ireland, GE Healthcare had with the National Federation of Sub-postmasters David Plotts, Vice President of Marketing, General Surgery, on mutualisation of Post Office Ltd. [41564] Covidien Herb Riband, Vice President External Affairs International, Mr Davey: Co-operatives UK are currently seeking Medtronic International the views of all Post Office Ltd’s major stakeholders on Philip Salt, Chief Executive, Salts Healthcare Ltd Post Office mutualisation. They will be providing a Gary Stapleton, Vice President EMEA, 3M report to Ministers in the spring with options for how a Doris-Ann Williams, Director General, BIVDA mutualised Post Office might work. The National Peter Ellingworth, Chief Executive, Association of British Federation of SubPostmasters has been actively involved Healthcare Industries in their research, however, I have had no substantive Tony Davis, Chief Executive, Medilink West Midlands discussions with them on this topic since Co-operatives UK began their work. Secretariat Department of Health Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Association of British Healthcare Industries Innovation and Skills when he expects to receive the List 3: Senior Industry Group outcome of the consideration by Co-operatives UK on the options for a mutualised Post Office. [41632] Attendees of meeting on 7 February 2011 Co-Chairs Mr Davey: We expect Co-operatives UK’s report on Rt Hon David Willetts MP, Minister for Universities and options for a mutualised Post Office to be presented to Science, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Ministers in April. 883W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 884W

Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, to UK current accounts through the Post Office network. Innovation and Skills whether he has received initial Post Office Ltd will make commercial judgments on findings from Co-operatives UK from its study on which products and services to deliver through the Post options for a mutualised Post Office. [41633] Office network, including proposals such as a weekly budgeting account. Within Government, HM Treasury Mr Davey: I have not received any initial findings has commissioned research exploring the options for all from Co-operatives UK from their study on options for customers to have the opportunity to benefit from a mutualised Post Office. I expect to receive their final direct debit discounts. report in April. Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Post Office: Bank Services Innovation and Skills whether he has taken steps to assist the development of new banking products through Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the Post Office joint venture with the Bank of Ireland. Innovation and Skills with reference to his Department’s [41105] document Securing the Post Office Network in the Digital Age, November 2010, what estimate he has Mr Davey: The Government believe that continued made of the cost of establishing a Post Bank. [41102] growth of revenue from financial services will play an important part in the Post Office network’s future Mr Davey: The cost of establishing a Post Office sustainability. The development of specific new banking bank would have three main components. First, the products through the joint venture between Post Office need for Government to capitalise Post Office Ltd (POL) Ltd and the Bank of Ireland is a commercial matter for to allow it to obtain a banking license and lend off of its the companies. own balance sheet. Second, exiting existing contractual arrangements relating to the provision of financial services Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, through the post office network. Third, operational Innovation and Skills with reference to his Department’s costs associated with setting up and running a new document Securing the Post Office Network in the financial services unit within POL. The overall cost Digital Age, November 2010, what assessment he has would depend on the remit and scope of operations of a made of progress on proposals for Post Office Ltd to Post Office bank. (a) develop new banking products with the Bank of We have concluded that funding for the Post Office Ireland and (b) extend access to credit union services. network over the spending review period will be better [41106] used maintaining and modernising the network to safeguard its future, ensuring that there will be no further programme Mr Davey: The Government are firmly supportive of of Post Office closures. the development by Post Office Ltd of new banking and financial products with the Bank of Ireland and of Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, stronger links between Post Office Ltd and credit unions. Innovation and Skills with reference to his Department’s Negotiations on the provision of new products and document Securing the Post Office Network in the services are a commercial matter between Post Office Digital Age, November 2010, what estimate he has Ltd and the companies and organisations concerned. made of the cost of capitalising a Post Bank. [41103] Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Davey: The Government have looked carefully at Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has the option of creating a state-backed Post Office bank. had with Post Office Ltd on extending access to high One of the main components of the cost of establishing street bank current accounts through the Post Office a Post Office bank would be the need for Government network. [41107] to capitalise Post Office Ltd (POL) to allow it to obtain a banking license and lend off its own balance sheet. Mr Davey: Ministers and officials have frequent The exact level of Government funding needed would discussions with senior management at Post Office Ltd depend on the remit and scope of operations of a Post on the future of the Post Office network, including on Office bank. We have concluded that funding for POL the Government’s ambition for the Post Office to expand over the spending review period will be better used further into financial services and extend access to high maintaining and modernising the network to safeguard street bank current accounts through the Post Office its future, ensuring that there will be no further programme network. of post office closures. Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of had with (a) HSBC, (b) Santander and (c) Northern the merits of introducing a weekly budgeting account at Rock on providing access to current accounts through the Post Office. [41104] the Post Office network. [41108]

Mr Davey: The Government set out their policy on Mr Davey: The Government welcome the recent the future of the Post Office network in the policy agreement between Post Office Ltd and Royal Bank of statement “Securing the Post Office Network In the Scotland (RBS) to allow RBS and NatWest customers Digital Age”, published on 9 November 2010. In this access to their accounts at post offices. Negotiations statement we were clear that we will support Post Office between Post Office Ltd and banks yet to reach agreement Ltd as it expands further into financial services through on providing access to current accounts at post offices the provision of new products and by increasing access are commercial matters between the companies concerned. 885W Written Answers16 FEBRUARY 2011 Written Answers 886W

Regional Development Agencies: Assets for Newcastle upon Tyne Central, what the indicative funding allocations for each regional development agency Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, were for 2011-12. [41333] Innovation and Skills what assets are held by each regional development agency in each region; what the Mr Prisk: I refer to the answer given on 20 December estimated value is of each; which organisation is responsible 2010, Official Report, column 1048W. The London for it; and what decision has been taken on future Development Agency has not yet been given an indicative disposal in each case. [39799] allocation. Vocational Guidance Mr Prisk [holding answer 11 February 2011]: I refer to the answers given on 7 December 2010, Official Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 245W and 28 October 2010, Official Business, Innovation and Skills whether the new all-age Report, column 458W. The RDAs submitted detailed careers service will be established on a uniform model assets and liabilities plans to BIS on 31 January. These across England. [40119] plans are currently being scrutinised, each disposal will be considered on a case by case basis. An estimated Mr Hayes: The all-age careers service will have three value of each asset cannot be disclosed, at this time, as core elements: online, helpline and community-based this information is market and commercially sensitive. services. The online service and the helpline will deliver on a national basis. Local community-based services Regional Development Agencies: Finance will be expected to meet national standards, but will have flexibility to tailor their services to meet local Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, need, including in response to schools, which will have Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 8 February responsibility for securing access for their pupils to 2011, Official Report, column 215W,to the hon. Member independent, impartial guidance.

5MC Ministerial Corrections16 FEBRUARY 2011 Ministerial Corrections 6MC Ministerial Correction The full answer given was as follows. Robert Neill: The Department has not made an estimate Wednesday 16 February 2011 of the number of domestic dwellings valued at £2 million or higher. This estimate would require figures on the individual value of all domestic dwellings in each area. Such data are not held by the Department. Estimating COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT the current capital value of individual domestic dwellings in each area would require a valuation/revaluation exercise. Housing: Prices The Coalition Agreement rules out a domestic revaluation in this Parliament. Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for The correct answer should have been: Communities and Local Government what estimate his Department has made of the number of domestic Robert Neill: The Department has not made an estimate dwellings valued at £2 million or higher in each (a) local of the number of domestic dwellings valued at £2 million authority, (b) parliamentary constituency and (c) region. or higher. This estimate would require figures on the [39167] individual value of all domestic dwellings in each area. [Official Report, 10 February 2011, Vol. 523, c. 391-92W.] Such data are not held by the Department. Estimating the current capital value of individual domestic dwellings Letter of correction from Mr Robert Neill: in each area would require a valuation/revaluation exercise. An error has been identified in the answer given to The Government have ruled out a domestic revaluation the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) in this Parliament, as outlined in the written ministerial on 10 February 2011. statement of 11 October 2010, Official Report, column 2WS.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 16 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 939 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Aid Transfers ...... 948 Sri Lanka ...... 945 Friends of Yemen...... 941 Sub-Saharan Africa (Midwives) ...... 946 Haiti...... 939 UN Women Agency...... 944 India ...... 940 Official Development Assistance...... 947 PRIME MINISTER ...... 948 Palestine...... 943 Engagements...... 948 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 16 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 77WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 86WS 50th Horserace Betting Levy...... 77WS Access to Elected Office Consultation...... 86WS DEFENCE...... 78WS Chemical Weapons Convention JUSTICE...... 87WS (Protective Programmes)...... 78WS Appointment of the next Information Defence Infrastructure Organisation...... 78WS Commissioner...... 87WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 78WS General Affairs Council/Foreign Affairs Council... 78WS JUSTICE...... 85WS Hungarian Presidency (Priorities) ...... 81WS Health Care Workers, Social Workers and Legalisation Office ...... 81WS Social Care Workers...... 85WS Pope’s Visit (Costs) ...... 81WS Zimbabwe ...... 83WS TRANSPORT ...... 88WS HEALTH...... 83WS Basic Carbon Tool (Local Authorities) ...... 90WS Acupuncture, Herbal Medicine and Traditional Crossrail (Woolwich Station) ...... 88WS Chinese Medicine...... 83WS Informal EU Transport Council ...... 88WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 16 February 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 871W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Adult Education ...... 871W continued Citizens Advice Bureaux ...... 872W Audit Commission: Allowances ...... 830W Citizens Advice: Finance...... 872W Audit Commission: Expenditure...... 831W Departmental Procurement...... 873W Community Centres: Finance ...... 832W Employment Schemes ...... 875W Community Development...... 833W Employment Schemes: Further Education...... 876W Council Tax Benefits...... 833W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 876W Departmental Procurement...... 834W Higher Education: Disadvantaged ...... 877W Housing: Taxation ...... 834W Human Rights and Transnational Corporations.... 878W Landlords: Coventry...... 834W National Regional Development Agency Local Government: Conditions of Employment.... 834W Transition Programme Board...... 878W Non-domestic Rates: Devon ...... 834W Pharmaceutical Industry...... 878W North East ...... 835W Post Office: Bank Services...... 883W Regeneration: Newcastle upon Tyne ...... 835W Post Office Mutualisation ...... 882W Social Rented Housing...... 835W Regional Development Agencies: Assets...... 885W Solar Energy: Planning Permission ...... 836W Regional Development Agencies: Finance ...... 885W Standards Board for England: Furniture ...... 836W Vocational Guidance...... 886W Supporting People Programme: Liverpool ...... 837W

CABINET OFFICE...... 828W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 797W Childbirth: Enfield...... 828W Arts: Public Participation...... 797W Government Departments: Pay...... 829W Broadband: Devon...... 798W Job Creation...... 829W Broadband: Wales...... 798W Televisions...... 829W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 798W Digital Economy Act 2010...... 798W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 830W EU Electronic Communications Framework ...... 800W Affordable Housing: Barking ...... 830W Sport...... 800W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued HEALTH—continued Sport: Finance ...... 800W Hospitals: Food ...... 862W Television: Children ...... 800W Hull and East Riding NHS Stop Smoking Service: Correspondence ...... 862W DEFENCE...... 801W Meat: Hygiene...... 863W Armed Forces: Blood...... 801W Myalgic Encephalomyelitis ...... 863W Astute Class Submarines...... 802W NHS: Drugs...... 865W Defence: Procurement...... 802W NHS Institute for Innovation and Improvement .... 864W Departmental Travel ...... 803W NHS: Market Research...... 866W Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure...... 804W NHS Outcomes Framework...... 864W Hotels ...... 804W NHS: Pensions...... 866W Nuclear Submarines...... 805W NHS: Private Sector...... 866W Nuclear Weapons...... 805W NHS: Reorganisation...... 867W Trident Missiles...... 806W NHS: Standards...... 868W Nurses: Pay ...... 868W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 851W Patient Choice Schemes ...... 869W Biofuels...... 851W Postnatal Depression...... 869W Chemicals: Teesside...... 852W Prostate Cancer...... 870W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 853W Schizophrenia ...... 870W Green Climate Fund ...... 854W Radioactive Waste...... 854W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 777W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 857W Crime: Drugs ...... 777W Driving Under Influence: Drugs ...... 778W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Revenue and Customs: X-rays...... 778W AFFAIRS...... 837W Algae: Liverpool Bay ...... 837W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Flood Control: Wales...... 838W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 775W Floods...... 838W Information Officers ...... 775W Forestry Commission: Land...... 839W Members: Allowances ...... 776W Forestry Commission: Scotland ...... 840W Forestry Commission: Staff...... 840W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 826W Forests ...... 840W Africa: Young People ...... 826W Forests: Bedfordshire ...... 842W Burundi: Reconstruction...... 827W Forests: Devon ...... 842W Cotonou Agreement ...... 827W Forests: Ministerial Statements ...... 845W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 828W Forests: Public Finance ...... 846W Fair Trade ...... 826W Forests: Timber...... 846W Poverty Reduction...... 826W Irish Sea: Pollution...... 845W Poverty Relief Targets ...... 826W Land ...... 848W Nature Reserves ...... 848W JUSTICE...... 779W Plantations...... 849W Children: Maintenance ...... 779W Sewage: Railways ...... 849W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 779W Squirrels...... 849W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 779W Wareham Forest...... 850W Drugs: Sentencing...... 780W Wood: Licensing ...... 850W Employment Tribunals Service...... 782W Legal Aid ...... 781W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 817W Legal Aid: Mental Health ...... 783W Burundi: Politics and Government...... 817W Legal Aid: Personal Injury and Negligence...... 784W Departmental Flags ...... 817W Legal Aid: Rochdale ...... 785W Egypt: Elections...... 818W Legal Aid: Social Security Benefits ...... 785W Egypt: Politics and Government ...... 819W Legal Aid: Third Sector ...... 785W Embassies: Official Hospitality ...... 819W Legal Profession...... 786W European Union Bill...... 820W National Offender Management Service: North Africa and Middle East: British Nationals Qualifications...... 786W Abroad ...... 820W Offensive Weapons: Prison Sentences...... 786W Sudan: Referendums ...... 821W Offensive Weapons: Prison Sentences...... 787W Trade Promotion...... 821W Prison Sentences ...... 788W Tunisia: Politics and Government ...... 821W Prison Service: ICT...... 795W Prisoners: Ex-servicemen ...... 795W HEALTH...... 858W Prisons: Asbestos ...... 795W Blood: Donors ...... 858W Prisons: Visits...... 796W Children: Television ...... 858W Cockermouth Community Hospital...... 858W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 825W Dentistry: Qualifications...... 859W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 825W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 859W Food: Additives...... 859W PRIME MINISTER ...... 821W Food: Hygiene...... 860W Children’s Centres...... 821W General Practitioners: Equality...... 860W General Practitioners ...... 822W Genito-urinary Medicine ...... 860W Health...... 861W SCOTLAND...... 778W Health Services: Competition...... 862W Petrochemicals ...... 778W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 773W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 807W Airports: Security...... 773W Atos Origin ...... 807W British Chamber of Shipping: Secondment...... 773W Children: Maintenance ...... 807W Departmental Security ...... 773W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 808W Electric Vehicles ...... 774W Dichloromethane ...... 808W Northern Rail: Standards...... 774W Disability Living Allowance...... 809W Railway Stations: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 774W Disability Living Allowance: Cancer...... 809W Rolling Stock: Expenditure ...... 774W Employment: Asylum ...... 810W Shipping: Suffolk ...... 775W Housing Benefit ...... 811W South Eastern Trains...... 775W Housing Benefit: Greater London...... 811W Injuries, Disease and Dangerous Occurrences TREASURY ...... 822W Regulations 1995...... 811W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 822W Jobcentres ...... 812W EU Law...... 822W Lone Parents: Earnings...... 812W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 823W Pensions: Females ...... 813W James Murdoch...... 823W Poverty: Families...... 813W Public Bodies: Accountancy...... 823W Social Fund: City of Chester...... 813W Revenue and Customs: Debt Collection...... 824W Social Security Benefits: Expenditure...... 814W Taxation: Aviation ...... 825W Work Capability Assessment: Carmarthen...... 816W Taxation: Financial Services ...... 825W VAT: Alcoholic Drinks...... 825W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 16 February 2011

Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .5MC Housing: Prices...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 23 February 2011

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 16 February 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 939] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Sex Offenders Register [Col. 959] Statement—(Mrs May)

Welfare Reform [Col. 969] Bill presented, and read the First time

Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill [Col. 970] Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [11th allotted day] Youth Unemployment [Col. 973] Motion—(Mr Byrne)—on a Division, negatived Military Covenant [Col. 1026] Motion—(Mr Jim Murphy)—on a Division, negatived

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill [Col. 1074] Lords message considered

Petitions [Col. 1095]

Incinerators (Hertfordshire) [Col. 1097] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Immigration [Col. 1105] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Terrorist Finance Tracking Program [Col. 1108] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Economic Regeneration (Glasgow) [Col. 267WH] Infrastructure Planning Commission [Col. 291WH] Pubs (Planning Policy) [Col. 299WH] Renewable Energy (The Humber) [Col. 322WH] Financial Mutuals [Col. 331WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 77WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 773W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]