DIALOGUE PAKISTAN 2020
DIALOGUE PAKISTAN 2020
Comprehensive report
The PIPS acknowledges the services of Ahsan Hamid Durrani for developing this report from the dialogue proceedings and his participatory observation. The Institute is also thankful to Safdar Sial for reviewing the report and extracting key findings and recommendations.
Pak Institute for Peace Studies (PIPS), Islamabad
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DIALOGUE PAKISTAN 2020
CONTENTS
Key findings & recommendations ...... 3
Executive summary ...... 9
Inaugural session ...... 15
Keynote address of Khaled Ahmed ...... 15
Keynote address of IA Rehman ...... 20
Dialogue 1: Future of parliament, constitution and democracy ...... 23
Dialogue 2: State, society and religion ...... 27
Dialogue 3: Have we won the war against terrorism? ...... 33
Dialogue 4: Is our environment conducive for creative expression? ...... 39
Dialogue 5: Economic instability and governance: Is 2020 the year of hope? ...... 45
Dialogue 6: Youth, student unions and emerging political trends ...... 53
Dialogue 7: Political and strategic landscape of South Asia: Is the region ...... 57
in a permanent state of change?
Dialogue 8: Freedom of expression: Where does the problem lie? ...... 63
Dialogue 9: Women’s rights movements: Is there any hope for end ...... 67
of gender discrimination? ......
Dialogue 10: Dialogue among institutions: Needs and possibilities ...... 71
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KEY FINDINGS & RECOMMENDATIONS
✓ It is inevitable that dialogue be promoted in an environment that is open and not subject to any curbs. Indeed, it is the lack of communication and dialogue that has been at the heart of most conflicts and discords that have been persisting on the level of state and society in Pakistan. For one, the prevailing extremist ideology in the country needs to be confronted not [only] through the use of force but also by engaging all elements of the society in dialogue and by taking their concerns and grievances into consideration. Secondly, dialogue is not only limited to verbal conversation; practical steps are an important element of dialogue, in the absence of which the dialogue is futile.
✓ The relationship between the state and society is the key to a peaceful and prosperous Pakistan. This relationship should be based on constitutionalism, inclusivity, service delivery and related democratic norms and governance ideas of a modern nation-state instead of confines of a security state. What is the role of ordinary Pakistani people in governance except that they are only able to cast vote?
✓ The federation must pay heed to the problems faced by marginalized provinces instead of ignoring them. Dialogue should be initiated with the people of Balochistan and [erstwhile] tribal areas. Dialogue is reaching a consensus despite having a difference of opinion. This consensus is not eventual rather a part of the process of mutual understanding.
✓ Pakistan’s social contract or Constitution needs a revisit and reforms. Modern realities, new generation, changing economic order, and various definitions of individuals and people and their rights and limitations have to be taken into consideration, which we have failed to do so far. Constitutional provisions should be compatible with the ground realities. Similarly, the Constitution though talks about some civil rights but fails to address all the important socio-cultural rights of a human being. For one, the right to education was acknowledged after a long time,
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which is also in shambles. It doesn’t even talk about the health of the ordinary people. It doesn’t recognize the equality of women. It fails to protect the minorities.
✓ Constitutional reforms should empower the federating units instead of the federation. There are murmurs about rolling back the 18th amendment, which could be detrimental for the country’s future. Instead, discussion should be about making the local governments fully functional and empowered.
✓ Democracy has lost its soul in Pakistan and is confined to the process of election only. It is doomed to fail further if the judiciary, politics and media are not allowed to work freely. The persisting authoritarianism in political parties has also not allowed the democratic culture to flourish, which has also contributed in what we say the lack of political resistance to undemocratic forces. ✓ Diversity needs to be acknowledged and celebrated both by people and the state. Diversity and uniformity/unity are two different things and should not be equated. People can coexist with multiple identities and still be united on national issues. Various identities – religious, ethnic and cultural/linguistic – are like a bouquet. It should be cherished and people should be allowed to live with their identities.
✓ Parliament has become inconsequential in Pakistan’s polity due to multiple factors. For one, it has failed to bring home the bacon because the governments have not been given enough time to function, legislate and deliberate upon issues directly related to the country. Parliament is weak because it has not defined its priorities and scope. It has concentration of power and should try to devolve it to local governments. It should focus on a comprehensive constitutional revamp by initiating a national dialogue.
✓ Religion is an integral part of Pakistan’s identity therefore its responsibility cannot be left to any one group. Pakistani state and law have been under the influence of [Islamic] jurisprudence and under pressure of religious circles. Nonetheless, the state’s policy for religion and religious actors has nurtured a unique trend of religious political behaviors, which have remained more problematic and less helpful. Another problem we are faced with is that our intellectual canvas for religion is very narrow. Our religious identity is sectarian and class-based.
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✓ The coexistence of religion and politics has been, in general, very uneasy. Basic governance, which is a social notion, has also been affected by ideological debates. It is said in our religious references that a system based on Kufr (disbelief) can sustain but cannot sustain based on injustice. This means that socio-political order shouldn’t be integrated with the religion. Theological debate in a political order gives rise to confusion in the system.
✓ Pakistan needs to revisit its approach in dealing with the religious seminaries, or madrassas. For example, it is not easy to implement the package introduced for madrassas by the government. The biggest hurdle in madrassa reforms and addressing fundamentalism in Pakistan is communication gap.
✓ During the Swat operation in 2009 and in particular after the APS attack, there has been observed a change in the military doctrine and response thus contributing in a decline in terrorist violence. Yet, though the number of terrorist incidents has nosedived sharply during the past few years, but that doesn’t mean that we have completely won the war against terrorism. Besides keeping the pressure on against the militants, the next level is to fight this war ideologically as well as to curb the financial and other channels of support for the terrorists. Extremists may have weakened, but they are yet to be defeated. Civilian institutions should own and take control of the war against terrorism and extremism.
✓ While this region has produced several great littérateurs, artists, musicians and others with creative acumen, at present the problems pertaining to creative expression in Pakistan are on the rise. Still, despite tough and unhelpful conditions, literature and art can do wonders. Peace and tolerance are also directly linked to art and literature and forms of cultural and personal expressions. But sadly we are becoming a country where there is least appreciation for art and literature from both the state and society. Efforts should be made on the level of state and society to develop society’s intellectual construction that not only understands but also values and appreciates art and literature and those associated with them. The economy of art and literature also needs to be assessed and invested in.
✓ If we want to strengthen our relationship with our land and history, we need to keep alive and cherish our culture and heritage. Departments on ancient civilizations such as Mohenjodaro and Meahrgarh should be established in universities to facilitate research and study of our history and heritage and transmit it to next generations.
✓ Economic prosperity is vital for the stability of Pakistan. Pakistan should assess and
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acknowledge it economic problems and try to find indigenous solutions. An elitist economy is far estranged from people’s needs and wishes and also politically flawed. The rates of population and economic growth in the country are heading in opposite direction. Pakistan needs to do stringent efforts to increase production, ensure effective, equitable use of wealth and resources, and widen the tax base.
✓ Investment in the social infrastructure of is needed to make the production of wealth possible in Pakistan. People need to be provided affordable education, healthcare system, accommodations, and cheap resources of travelling, and until such a system is established that conveniently allows the citizens these necessities, our predicament will not alter.
✓ Political activism of youth is diminishing in Pakistan and youths are increasingly feeling being left out of the policy processes of the country. We need to create political space for the youth. It is the most necessary thing to do. This space can be nurtured in any form whether it is student unions or trade unions.
✓ Restoration of student unions is not the problem of youth on campuses alone but of the rights and freedom of larger youth groups at community level. Scope of unions is wide-ranging as it nurtures critical thinking, which then spills over to rest of the society outside the walls of the campuses. Therefore, the issue of student unions should not be attributed to campuses only; it’s an issue of the society at large.
✓ Pakistan needs to improve relation with its neighbors including India. In particular Pak-India relations have consequences for the whole of South Asia and wider region. Relations between nations are by communication and negotiations, a lack of which certainly leads to rigid positions and protraction of conflicts. Nations have been learning effective ways of communication and dialogue, including trade, to avoid war and prosper, and Pakistan should also master that art.
✓ Pervasiveness of controlled narratives undermines freedom of expression in Pakistan. The tradition of dissent is nowhere to be found even in the political parties, which should in fact be the custodians of democratic ideals. Indeed, freedom of speech and expression are largely missing in all walks of life and segments of society in Pakistan, including at homes. The problem is larger and cannot be confined to media only. Social media is providing some space to mainly youths but has its own consequences.
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✓ Similarly, the space for media is swiftly shrinking. The dissenting programs on TV channels are being shut down. How can democracy be strengthened with media in shackles?
✓ Women in Pakistan have always been treated as inferior creatures and have been stripped of their due rights. They are neither granted the rights the modern nations have granted to their women, nor the ones their religion offers. However, things have started to change though, yet slowly. For one, apart from some recent legislation, some religious leaders’ support for women’s rights movements is also promising. The talk of sexual violence and relations, although considered a taboo, needs to be made possible and not too arduous a task to undertake.
✓ Serious efforts are needed to develop a functional and trust-based working relationship and cooperation among the state institutions. As the tensions between state institutions are deemed as a grave hurdle in the way of democracy and state-building processes in Pakistan, the Constitution, which clearly defines roles and responsibilities, should serve as the baseline for initiating a dialogue among the institutions.
✓ Pakistan is deemed as an ideological state, but its religious-ideological affairs have largely been left at the mercy of people, mainly clergy and religious groups. That has also contributed, among other factors, in the prevalence of violent extremism and militancy. Majority of Pakistanis, in general, and religious communities, in particular, prefer Shariah, or Islamic law, to the Constitution and democracy, which has not only divided the society into segments but also created structural barriers in the state’s enforcement of law and its writ. Sooner or later the state will have to confront constitutional and ideological outliers.
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EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Fifty-eight (58) leading experts/speakers from politics, media, civil society, military, religious studies and academia gathered under one roof to discuss, deliberate, and dialogue the most pressing issues of the day. This was Dialogue Pakistan 2020, organized by Pak Institute for Peace Studies (PIPS) in Islamabad. The platform was launched in 2019 with its first series of dialogue on critical issues confronting Pakistani state and society.
Dialogue Pakistan 2020 was held at Hotel Margala, Islamabad on January 25, 2020, wherein issues linked to state, society, religion, constitutionalism, future of parliament, regional political landscape, freedom of expression, women rights, and student unions were exhaustively discussed by eminent scholars and experts. The event remained jam-packed and included a total of 10 dialogue sessions that continued throughout the day.
The event started bright and early at 9am with the welcome remarks of PIPS director Mr. Amir Rana, who thanked the distinguished guests for their participation. He reaffirmed PIPS commitment to fostering a culture of dialogue in the society, while upholding democratic values. In his introductory remarks, Mr. Ahsan Hamid Durrani gave a brief overview about PIPS, its objectives and the concept behind Dialogue Pakistan.
In the inaugural session titled The Need for Dialogue in Today’s Pakistan, Mr. I.A. Rehman, former chairman Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), said that in order to relinquish the clouds of despair that have blanketed the country, it is inevitable that dialogue is promoted in an environment that is open and not subject to any curbs. His keynote address revolved around, but was not limited to, the issues of human rights, decaying democratic values in Pakistan, constitutionalism, culture, independent reasoning, and societal values.
Mr. Khaled Ahmed, veteran journalist and columnist, said in his keynote address that democracy, in other words, advocates for the prevalence of free speech, and that the latter
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needs to be made possible both at the national and international levels. He stressed that, for Pakistan to progress, the federation must pay heed to the problems faced by marginalized provinces instead of ignoring them. He also emphasized the need to shift away from isolationist approach towards an inclusive and friendlier approach for the neighboring regional countries to reap the full economic potential for Pakistan.
During the first dialogue of the day titled The Future of Parliament, Constitution and Democracy, Barrister Mirza Shahzad Akbar, Special Assistant to the Prime Minister on Accountability and Interior Ministry and Chief of the Assets Recovery Unit (ARU), stated multiple factors are responsible for a weakened parliament and fledgling democratic norms and ideas in the country. He lamented how certain institutions and classes were blamed and targeted for the sorry state of affairs in the country, but indeed it is something that the entire society and all institutions are responsible for. Shazia Marri, a PPP leaders and member of National Assembly, said that diversity needs to be acknowledged and dialogue made an unavoidable prerequisite. She also said that the role of parliament is equal to none, which, seriatim, begs supremacy and accountability. Dr Abdul Malik Baloch, former CM Balochistan, and Mr. Afrasiab Khattak, former senator ANP, said that a country where lawlessness prevails, it is necessary that we try our best to shift from being a security state to a welfare state for which brave and robust steps needs to be taken. Mr. Khattak said that Parliament has become inconsequential in Pakistan’s polity and that lawlessness is the new law of the land. Renowned constitutionalist, Mr Zafar Ullah Khan, stressed the importance of shifting away from a security state to a welfare state by propounding for a new social contract to move forward. Mr. Abdullah Dayo, Program Manager at Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung (FES), moderated the session.
In the second session titled State, Society and Religion, Dr. Dietrich Reetz - Associate Professor of Political Science, Centre for Modern and Oriental Studies Freie University Berlin – pointed out the lack of communication between religious seminaries and rest of the society as one of the major impediments in achieving social harmony. Dr. Qibla Ayaz – Chairman, Council of Islamic Ideology – argued that since the 1980s, sensationalism has found its root in religious tendencies rendering the human aspect in religious practices insignificant. Former Chairman of Council of Islamic Ideology and former DG Islamic Research Institute, Dr. Muhammad Khalid Masud argued that our society was introduced to modernity in the colonial era owing to which modernity was always viewed with suspicion.
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It is due to this suspicion that we were unable to adopt the human values of modernism and only considered technology as modernism. Deputy Director Al Sharia Academy Dr. Ammar Khan Nasir stressed that when religious leaders feel left out of the polity, they take to streets. He opined that the true teachings and spirit of Islam is not being followed in our country. Director PIPS Muhammad Amir Rana moderated the session.
In the third session titled “Have We Won the War Against Terrorism?,” speakers underscored that that the prevailing extremist ideology in the country needs to be confronted not through the use of force but by engaging all elements of the society through a dialogue and by taking into consideration in earnest their concerns. Speaking in this panel, Director National Initiative Against Organized Crimes (NIOC), Mr. Tariq Khosa expressed his fear over the prevailing ideological extremism in Pakistani society. Former National Security Advisor, Lt General Nasser Khan Janjua expressed satisfaction over the current security situation of the county with a hope that things will further improve with time. Former DG FIA Mr. Tariq Parvez opined that number of terrorist incidents have nosedived sharply during the past few years but this doesn’t mean that we have completely won the war against terrorism. We still need to fight this war at the ideological level coupled with choking the financing of terrorism inside Pakistan. Senior journalist and author Nasim Zehra believed it was not wise to declare victory over terrorism. She said Pakistan also needed to assess the internal factors involved in the unrest and terrorism. Senior journalist and security analyst Mr. Zahid Hussain termed the relationship between state and society as the key to a peaceful and prosperous Pakistan. He said that Pakistan has suffered huge losses due to terrorism. The session was moderated by Dr. Jochen Hippler, Country Director, Friedrich-Ebert-Stiftung (FES).
In the fourth session titled “Is Our Environment Conducive for Creative Expression?,” renowned poet Iftikhar Hussain Arif said that problems pertaining to creative expression in Pakistan are on the rise for which the prevalence of dialogue is an utterly important prerequisite. He argued that our region has produced one of the most progressive littérateurs and artists of the world. Literature and art, the panelists vehemently argued, can help promote peace and tolerance. Ghazi Salahuddin, renowned analyst and writer, lamented that the prevailing situation in our country is worse than that of Zia Ul Haq’s era as the hope is rapidly fading away. Celebrated columnist and writer Yasir Pirzada maintained that creativity thrives more under duress. Speaking in the panel, Director of
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Ajoka Theatre Shahid Mehmood Nadeem opined that avenues of creative expression are not provided rather crafted and that we need to continue our work while remaining hopeful. Executive Director of T2F Foundation Mr. Arieb Azhar opined that the public at large contributes more to censorship than the state, hence resulting in the choking of discourse. Director General of Pakistan National Council of Arts, Dr Fouzia Saeed, celebrated the session.
The 5th session discussed “Economic Stability and Governance: Is 2020 the Year of Hope?” in terms of the future of economic trends in Pakistan. Ziauddin, former editor Dawn, said if Pakistan doesn’t take prompt actions, its economic conditions will only worsen. For that Pakistan needs to acknowledge its problems and work towards finding their solutions. Dr. Kaiser Bangali and Afshan Subohi said that our elites don’t feel that they belong to the country and also lack a clear vision for this country. Rafiullah Kakar said that failure of accountability is the failure of politics. One of the main problems we are faced with is that we are politically disorganized which is the cause of most of the chaos prevalent in the country, he opined. Senior journalist Zaighum Khan facilitated the session.
Most in the session on “Youth, Student Unions and Emerging Political Trends,” argued that student unions be allowed to function at educational campuses but with certain considerations. Dr Ammar Ali Jan, an academic turned activist, vehemently argued that inequality breeds conflict in society. He argued that while state is trying to curb the freedom of expression, the young generations are finding their voice through movements like Pashtun Tahaffuz Movement (PTM). Youth activist Ahsan Hamid Durrani opined that it is imperative to debate and understand the framework, structure and mandate of student unions. He said that young people are increasingly feeling left out of the policy processes of the state. He also lamented the lack of seriousness on part of government to provide young people a platform to participate in the decision-making processes at the state level. Youth and social development consultant Iqbal Haider Butt also discussed the role of young people in national development and shed light on the role of student unions in campuses. Secretary General of Islami Jamiat Talaba, Mr. Umair Raja, maintained that a proper code of conduct should be put in place to regulate student unions.
The seventh session of dialogue had its focus set on “Political and Strategic Landscape of South Asia: Is the Region in a Permanent State of Change?” Aziz Ahmed Khan,
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former ambassador, stressed that Pakistan needs to improve its relation with India, and that although talks with the [Afghan] Taliban are not unproblematic, we need to engage them in healthy discussions and bring them on one table. Amir Rana, Director PIPS, argued that the Indo-Pak conflict has consequences for the whole of South Asia. He further said that the meeting of the leaders of India and Pakistan during the upcoming SAARC summit will prove extremely inevitable for the pervasiveness of smooth and sound relations between the two countries. Professor at School of Politics and International Relations at Quaid-e-Azam University Dr. Zafar Nawaz Jaspal opined that compared to Pakistan, India’s strategic posture is more aggressive. Economic prosperity is vital for the stability of Pakistan. In this regard, senior journalist Khaled Ahmed asserted that Pakistan must come out of the competition mentality with India and focus on its internal issues. Journalist and anchorperson Munizae Jahangir moderated the session.
In “The Debate on Freedom of Expression; Where Does the Problem Lie?,” senator Mir Hasil Bizenjo argued that pervasiveness is granted only to one narrative throughout the country to which all political parties and intellectuals, irrespective of their kind, have followed blindly. Mazhar Abbas, senior journalist and renowned political analyst, and Shahzada Zulfiqar, President Pakistan Federal Union of Journalists, asserted that the tradition of dissent is nowhere to be found in the political parties, which should be indeed custodians of democratic ideals. Munizae Jahangir mourned the absolute absence of freedom of speech and expression in all walks of life. She further said that lack of space for the youth and journalists coerces them into taking to social media to posit their concerns and thoughts which, in turn, becomes grave for them. Khursheed Ahmad Nadeem, senior analyst and columnist, argued that free speech has been brushed under the carpet by the state, and that if Pakistan is to become a truly democratic country, free speech needs to be made more of a norm.
In the 9th session titled “Women’s Rights Movements: Is There Any Hope for an End to Gender Discrimination?,” Dr Samia Raheel Qazi, President International Muslim Women Union, said that women in Pakistan have always been treated as inferior creatures and have been stripped of their due rights. She accentuated that it is the need of the hour that they be given the space that they deserve and are given voice as the Constitution of Pakistan guarantees them. Romana Bashir, member Punjab Commission on Status of Women, said that there have been movements purporting at guaranteeing the rights of women and ensuring that they are given enough opportunities. She appreciated the fact
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that religious leaders have also supported their work, which, she argued, is a big change. Kishwar Naheed, a veteran poetess and activist, argued that a great many movements have been created against women, but they have fought and ascertained the provision of their due rights to them. She suggested that the talk of sexual violence and relations, although considered a taboo, needs to be made possible and not too arduous a task to undertake. This session was moderated by Dr. Fouzia Saeed, Director General of Pakistan National Council of Arts (PNCA).
The last session focused the theme of “Dialogue Among Institutions: Needs and Possibilities,” wherein luminary experts in defense, politics and journalism addressed the audience. Senior journalist and executive editor of Naya Daur Murtaza Solangi moderated the session. Justice Ali Nawaz Chauhan, former chairman National Commission on Human Rights Pakistan and ex CJ Republic of Gambia, spoke about the lack of coherence between institutions that reflected a lack of serious efforts in that regard. Lt Gen (retd.) Amjad Shoaib argued that one reason why the Parliament has failed to bring home the bacon is that governments have not been given enough time to function, legislate and deliberate upon issues directly related to the country. He further said that to say that it is the army that gets to decide the foreign policy of the country is absurd, and that it only issues unbinding recommendations upon the request of the government. Farhatullah Babar, former senator and current Secretary General PPP, held the military establishment responsible for the lack of dialogue among institutions, and maintained that it is utterly significant that civil supremacy be made stronger and more possible. Mr. Javaid Abbasi, a senator from PMLN, stressed that although the Parliament may be responsible for its tardiness and for not adhering to their role, it will not be inaccurate to say that it has not been allowed to function and has always been subject to the infiltrations of the military establishment. He also said that political parties need to keep the spirit of democracy and dialogue alive by giving them preference over personal politics within their own setups. Mr. Saleem Safi, senior anchorperson and journalist, concluded the session by arguing that we have a social contract in the shape of our Constitution which needs to be taken earnestly and for whose growth and prevalence dialogue is a necessity. He further argued that there ought to be no interference within institutions, and that even media is not aloof of it. Putting forth a recommendation, he said that the creation of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission is a prerequisite to help find reasons behind some of the most daunting challenges we are confronted with.
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INAUGURAL SESSION
Khaled Ahmed (keynote address)
Just as governance is by consent, relations between nations are by communication, a process of give-and-take that brings them on a minimal joint agenda. Communication is possible if the parties are able to accommodate each other through a “flexibility of response”. If the parties are rigid in their outlook they can hardly agree on a common agenda. Since states are wedded to the myth of sovereignty they are not supposed to allow it to be violated. Yet, without suppleness of the negotiating mind there can be no agreement. And lack of agreement will likely lead to conflict.
The mind is less likely to be “accommodating” if it lacks flexibility. And the mind is likely to be rigid if it is ideological. Ideologies in history were geared to the realization of the utopian state. Most religions evolve into ideologies that control conduct as foundation of a utopian society. Human societies have aspired to utopias and have given rise to firmly controlled settlements. In our times, nationalism too serves as a pillar of this idealization of the state. It creates inflexibilities of communication that will not help in avoidance of conflict.
The world has steadily progressed away from utopia to avoid inflexibility of communication within and without. It has evolved away from the Platonic utopia based on an idealization of Sparta, the regimented warrior state. Today, democracy has embraced the “demos” that Plato denigrated. Democracy has been possible today through by rejecting the Athenian utopia that the philosophers aspired to. Today, states are busy in dialogue within and without – within while talking to the opposition in a democratic system of governance and while talking to other states.
Ideological states are less amenable to communication and dialogue used in order to seek any minimal grounds for coexistence and cooperation. They either suffer defeat or break up through popular disenchantment. If victories were once possible if one showed firm adherence to ideology, defeats too grew out of an inability to be flexible in communication with the adversary. Since “flexibility” – interpreted as “bending” – was seen as defeat, conflict was the order of the day and moist nations saw war as the only way of making social progress. War, based on incapacity or inability to communicate, was aspired to by rulers if they were to last in power.
In order to survive as a system of viable states, there were efforts made in the past to lay down rules of state behavior within which the states could actually talk to each other
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instead of going to war. But “talking” as a means of mutual “accommodation” was always found difficult since the process clashed with the “sovereignty” of the state. Finally, this concept of sovereignty had to undergo reform through an international system created to avoid war. Sovereignty was partially surrendered to allow the global system in which states wished to survive through avoidance of war. The state was on the way of conversion from the warrior state to a trading nation. Trade became the most effective way of “communication” between states and avoidance of war through dialogue. In this process nations given to trading were at an advantage.
It developed that nations given to trading soon got the upper hand in the international system instead of the warrior nations. The “flexible” mind of the trader, constantly indulging in bargaining instead of adhering to “principles”, made the state strong even in the battlefield because the trader nation’s ability to “fund” defensive wars. The trader looks for “advantage” through constant bargaining instead of obeying the dictates of “national honor”.
If states need to communicate with each other in the spirit of accommodation, they equally need to communicate with flexibility within themselves to avoid civil unrest and regional intra-state conflict. If communication with the political opponent is based on derogation instead of accommodation the state will remain subject to internal discord and enfeeblement. Ironically, the dialogue of derogation depends once again on “principles” whose violation is “criminal behavior”. The constitution, written with the intent to bring the people together, is then used to acquire “inflexibility of dialogue” leading to a breakdown of law and order.
Dialogue was not greatly admired when the state was primitive and survived only through conflict. Growth and Prosperity were achieved through “conquest” and “enslavement”. Today, there is a global trading order called multilateralism where “national pride” helps less than a trader’s deftness to clinch “advantage”. Honor-based societies are not meant to succeed in this global order. This order is non-utopian and professedly full of flaws and injustices; but states can survive in it if they are well equipped with economic wisdom and are free of ideologies that glorify rigidities of state behavior.
Today, “a balance of terror” can also lead to normal communication between states. This is achieved through mutual assurance of “destruction” in case it is used as an option. In some cases this is achieved through the development of nuclear weapons. When two states in adversarial relationship achieve the status of nuclear powers they have to stop thinking of conflict and settle down to a dialogue of “normalization” which means open borders and free trade. This has to happen because the status quo between them gets frozen and the “revisionist” state committed to change of borders and territories is compelled to give up its claims under the threat of international isolation and disapproval.
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The recalcitrant nuclearized “revisionist” state runs many internal risks too. Compelled to use “nonstate actors” against the adversary nuclear state it tends to share its sovereignty with elements considered “terrorists” by the international community. Training these nonstate actors as terrorists puts the sovereignty of the state at risk. If the agenda of these “actors” differ from the agenda of the state then “internal risks” emerge that tend to divide and weaken the revisionist state from within. The revisionist state therefore tends to become unstable which is seen by the international community as a threat to the world.
Becoming like Pakistan
Pakistan was supposed to become like India if it wanted to survive. Ex-Foreign Minister of India Yashwant Sinha used to point out that India fought its war with China in 1962 and still had territorial disputes with it; yet, he said, China was India’s largest trading partner. Today Mr Sinha is not a part of the BJP as he once was. And, ideologically, instead of Pakistan following India, India is becoming like Pakistan.
Pakistan refuses to budge from its revisionist track. It keeps on fighting sub-nuclear wars with India and hurting its economy. It has disputes with India, but so has Bangladesh; but Bangladesh is non-revisionist and doesn’t challenge the big neighbor, as Pakistan does India. Look at the figures: foreign exchange reserves in Pakistan were $15 billion in October 2019; Bangladesh foreign exchange reserves were $32.93 billion in 2018. The GDP growth rate in Bangladesh was expected to be 7.20 percent by the end of 2019. In the long-term, the Bangladesh GDP growth rate is projected to trend around 6.80 percent in 2020. Pakistan’s reserves $10 billion (if you exclude private accounts) in October 2019 and it was in the IMF’s oxygen tent for the coming years, given its indebtedness.
Despite being in America’s anti-China camp, India trades nicely with China, its largest trading partner, their bilateral trade set to cross $100 billion in 2019. India's Ambassador to Beijing says - while inaugurating an Indian oleoresin extraction firm's third manufacturing facility in China – India is set to expand its business in the Chinese food market.
Pakistan didn’t listen to Mr Sinha – today India too doesn’t – and its defence budget is 3.6 percent of its GDP; but according to World Bank figures for 1988 to 2003, Pakistan's military expenditures represented 25–29 percent of central government expenditures and 6–7 percent of gross national income. On the other hand, Indian Defence budget is 1.6 percent of its GDP while Bangladesh’s is 1.4 percent of its GDP.
Things were “normal” once. In 1948, Pakistan's trade with India formed 56 percent of its exports and 32 percent imports. In 2018, the bilateral trade of Pakistan and India was merely 2.76 percent and 0.35 percent of their global trade, respectively. Pakistan in 2018 banned even the border trade with India after India annexed Kashmir by removing Article 370 of its constitution.
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Another Pakistani economist laments: “We spend 20-25% of our federal budget on defence, which is one of the highest in the world as a percentage of our GDP. This is close to the $1.5 billion dollars’ revenue earned by the army-owned corporations. Pakistan spends 30 percent of its budget on debt-servicing. It collects 10-11 percent of its GDP, but its non- development expenditure, of which defence is the biggest chunk, is eating Pakistan alive.”
When Imran Khan became prime minister of Pakistan he called on his Indian counterpart Mr Narendra Modi to “normalise” relations (another way of saying Forget Kashmir) because Pakistan wanted to trade rather than fight. But Mr Modi was busy getting rid of Article 370 and annexing the disputed Kashmir even as Khan got together with his army chief General Bajwa to open the Kartarpur Sahib shrine of Baba Guru Nanak to Indian visitors.
What happened in the Valley was hair-raising enough to shock the world – otherwise willing to ignore the annexation – and drag Pakistan back into its national reflex of challenging India. India also kept firing across the Ceasefire Line or Line of Control (LoC) in Kashmir routinely killing Pakistanis living right on the edge of LoC. Soon, both Khan and Modi faced their own separate challenges from the economy, one going into the IMF tent, the other getting hit from low growth and weakening political strength in the Indian provinces.
Khan in Islamabad has failed to get the world to support his plaint about the abrogation of Article 370; not even the so-called Islamic world is willing to stand with him on the Kashmir dispute. Yet Pakistan feels less challenged today on the eastern front than on the western boundary called the Durand Line. Once considered Pakistan’s “strategic depth” Afghanistan has emerged the most unpredictable counter in Pakistan’s foreign policy game-plan. India is there in Kabul and is thick additionally with Iran not too friendly these days with Pakistan because of Shia-killing that Pakistan can no longer stop.
Pakistan army has seen the new situation develop after dealing for years with the Afghan Taliban ensconced on its territory and their Pakistani hangers-on who eventually fled into Afghanistan and today remain a bigger challenge than even India although India is better able to call the shots in Kabul these days. Once the Americans leave the Kabul government will fall to hand over to the Taliban and their Al Qaeda and ISIS soldiers. Mercenary in temperament they will milk both India and Pakistan but will endanger Pakistan more with their ideology which blends dangerously with Pakistan “weak” territories abutting the Durand Line.
Pakistan, planning to hold the next summit of the defunct regional trading bloc SAARC in Islamabad in 2020, must convince India that through trade and opening of borders for free movement, the dispute of Kashmir can be laid to rest.
Talk to the terrorized!
The recent standoff between the ruling Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) government of
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Imran Khan and the Supreme Court of Pakistan has served to highlight the “problem areas” of governance that only a dialogue can remove. That Prime Minister Khan is aggressive and near-abusive about his opposition is accepted on all hands, but he has also come up against the wall of past trespasses of the Pakistani state that he must remove through dialogue.
There is the opposition being punished through National Accountability Bureau (NAB) that few would endorse as a normal watchdog against corruption. The hit-or-miss way NAB is handling the cases it has brought against the opposition leaders must be put to an end. Then there are provinces with deep historical grievances that must be addressed before the trouble Pakistan has on its borders becomes too big to handle. The education sector in Pakistan must be scanned to know why Pakistan has failed to achieve the transfer of technology that India enjoys to become strong on manufacture.
The people living in erstwhile “tribal areas” deserve to be heard seriously about their problems. Pakistan has two fundamental flaws: the first relates to the instability that hounds most Muslim states; and, the second, non-centralisation of the state – somewhat like Afghanistan – that prevents Pakistan from becoming a “normal state”.
This takes us back to the first decade of Pakistan’s independence when it was decided to retain its “tribal areas” in hopes of “saving” the “culture” of their inhabitants. (The “tribals” regretfully were then sent into Kashmir as invaders.) Today, after 72 years of the evolution of the state, almost 60 percent of Pakistan is without normal writ of the state. In 2017, after the much-delayed “merger” of the tribal areas of the north into the “frontier” province of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, problems still remain from the warlord-driven past and must be resolved through dialogue with such organisations as Pakhtun Tahaffuz Movement (PTM).
The tribal areas of the north – called “agencies” – were open to infiltration because their borders were open. The state allowed Afghan Taliban and Al Qaeda to plant their camps there. Local Taliban joined them and established their own rule that ultimately clashed with Pakistan‘s state sovereignty. The control enjoyed by these elements was facilitated by lack of infrastructural development that practically ousted the writ of the state from there.
The tribal areas were “federally” administered but there were some like the valley of Swat administered by the province of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. In time, Pakistan lost its writ in these territories too to terrorists like Osama bin Laden and Aiman al-Zawahiri who lived freely there contracting marriages – euphemism for copulation – with many local wives. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi the founder of the Islamic State went to Iraq from this tribal badland marrying a couple of times on the way. Warlord Fazlullah ruled over Swat till his mayhem was brought to an end by an invasion of his “state” by Pakistan Army; but not before he had fled to Afghanistan.
Closer to Peshawar, warlord Mangal Bagh became the ruler of Khyber Agency after killing
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those who resisted him. He got his income by imposing heavy fines – for not praying five times daily at the local mosque, for instance - on the local inhabitants and began recruiting his army. The syndrome that surfaced in Khyber was the same as appeared in North-South Waziristan and Swat: intimidation followed by “empowerment” of those abandoned by the state of Pakistan as soldiers and suicide-bombers of Islam.
The “tribal” province of Balochistan has been restless since 1973 when Pakistan had to “invade” it to put down “rebellion”. The province was backward in all respects: there was no police, no normal courts and no law and order in the province except in Quetta the capital. In June 2019, three districts of Balochistan were converted into ‘A’ areas (with police) from ‘B’ (without police) areas. In 1990, Balochistan abandoned the jirga system and had to wait till 2019 to have police on its territory. Pakistan discovered gas in the province and wastefully “piped” it to households in the rest of the country till it was quickly exhausted.
In reaction, there was an uprising of the Baloch which was brutally put down till the judiciary became concerned about its “disappeared” people. Like the tribal areas, Balochistan’s borders too are open to penetration. Today it is the “tribal” western border that is vulnerable, not the “non-tribal” eastern one. Pakistan needs to dialogue with the Baloch “liberation” organisations that demand rights but are being hunted down.
The feudal region of Sindh province, ruled by the “wadero” aristocracy, is also without a normal writ of the state needed to uplift the poor masses living without adequate health and education facilities. Since the “wadero” politicians get elected to Sindh assembly through their captive votes in the interior and live in Karachi, the dirt-poor masses are frequently subject to famine-like conditions. The region of Thar in Sindh has its children dying of starvation simply because it is inhabited by almost half of the Hindu population of Pakistan.
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I.A. Rehman (Keynote address)
Mr Khaled Ahmed has very comprehensively explained the factor owing to which Pakistan is facing instability and inequality, and why there is a need for dialogue in our society. I want to address this gap from an institutional perspective. Reviewing Pakistan’s foundational structure and its role is very important because most of the problems rise from here. We have claimed that we are an Islamic Republic of Pakistan. What do we mean by Islamic? Apparently this means that no law shall be enacted in the country that is repugnant to the injunctions of Islam. Nevertheless, who will decide what is Islamic and what is not? Do Muslims have a unanimous Islamic political order as an example? I want to quote the 1938 address of Allama Iqbal in which he envisaged the creation of a separate Muslim state. Why was there a need for it? He said that there is a need for a separate Muslim state because Islamic jurisprudence has been in a state of stagnation for the past 500 years. He believed to end that stagnation and also put an end to Arab imperialism over the Islamic jurisprudence. But what actually happened is that when Zia Ul Haq took power, he decided to continue the status quo. We have shut the doors on Ijtehad and have, at the same time, remained aloof to the discourse at global level. General Zia established the Federal Shariah Court and suspended the constitution for 10 years. Even after that, the problems continued. Federal Shariah Court dismissed the laws enacted by government on the grounds that they were repugnant to the injunctions of Islam. This needs to be deliberated upon through a dialogue to ascertain what is according and what is repugnant to Islam. The second word in the name of our country is “Republic”. What do we mean by it and are we a Republic? The purpose of creating a new country in 1947 was to establish a new order. But the first 9 years saw the enforcement of British Act 1935 in Pakistan. During this time, all the features of a Colonial era were adopted, which are now deeply rooted in our society and are highly undemocratic.
It is now said that we are functioning under the 1973 constitution; which I believe, is a fallacious argument. The country is still serving under Zia’s constitution. When India’s constitution was made, Dr Ambadkar, who was a part of the process, admitted that the said constitution didn’t represent 70% of the Indian population. At least they admitted that. We, on the other hand, are not even honest about it. 80% of the elements of our constitution are taken from the British Act 1935. Only 20% of it is original. What is there for a common person in the constitution? It doesn’t guarantee the basic rights and social security of common people. It doesn’t recognize the equality of women. It fails to protect the minorities. The constitution talks about some civil rights but fails to address all the important socio-cultural rights of a human being. The right to education was acknowledged after a long time, which is also in shambles. It doesn’t even talk about the health of the ordinary people.
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In Pakistan, the provinces are not autonomous. The constitution says that people will be a part of the governance. What is the role of ordinary people in governance except that they are only able to cast vote? Can it be expected from an ordinary person to assume power in this country? Parliament has reserved seats for technocrats, religious scholars but none whatsoever for laborers who constitute the majority of population of Pakistan. Today the constitutional reforms are being discussed but only to strengthen the federation. The federation will decide the proportion of resources for the provincial units. There are murmurs about rolling back the 18th amendment. Also that the power to develop the educational curriculum should be taken from provinces and given to the federation so that a uniform curriculum is devised. How can this be done? How can we ignore the identities and cultural & traditional sensitivities of a people? This is our fundamental problem.
The culture that we have imposed here is falling like a house of cards. The culture prevailing in a society is a reflection of all of its attitudes. Democracy cannot flourish in this country because it has a culture of domination. This culture doesn’t recognize the equality of men and women and doesn’t treat the rich and poor alike. How can our true culture exist if we don’t teach our children in their mother language? Therefore, the major problem in Pakistan is that of our foundations, which needs to reviewed and discussed through a dialogue. The foundational structure of our state should be redefined and its scope should be ascertained. The definition of citizenship should be clarified. The concepts of human rights and culture should be discussed.
We talk about strengthening democracy but the space for media is swiftly shrinking. There is no freedom of expression. The dissenting programs on TV channels are being shut down. How can democracy be strengthened with media in shackles? Pakistanis enjoyed more freedom in 1947. When the rights of the majority of people are being violated then how can democracy nurture? Problems have arisen because up till now we haven’t ascertained what kind of state do we want. This needs to be debated that what we mean by an Islamic state. The paradigm of national security should be completely redefined. If someone gives his/her opinion on issues, then this shouldn’t be made a national security issue. All these things need to be discussed through an open in which should be inclusive of ordinary people. This will be the first step towards identifying Pakistan’s course.
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DIALOGUE 1:
THE FUTURE OF PARLIAMENT, CONSTITUTION AND DEMOCRACY
Abdullah Dayo (moderator) large seems to have no appetite for living under an order. The social contract has clearly failed here. State and citizens are bound Among many other factors behind this is the lack together by a social contract which of coherence between the constitutional clauses maintains the relationship between and ground reality of Pakistan. Modern realities, these two entities. Pakistan also new generation, changing economic order, and has a social contract with its various definitions of individuals and people and citizens. A constitutional document their rights and limitations have to be taken into exists as a result of this contract. consideration, which we have failed to do so far. The question is whether this There have been considerable amendments in our contract is effective and its constitution but they need to be debated openly. existence is being accepted. This Dr Abdul Malik Baloch question arises because as a citizen I’m not being exempted Today, you can see democracy in Pakistan but it from paying taxes and I’m fulfilling has lost its soul. In our country, conducting all the responsibilities of a citizen. elections is understood as democracy, which too, is Even then I have to take care of shrouded in uncertainty and in most cases gives rise to a new crisis. The crisis brought by the my educational expenses, get recent elections is unstoppable. Political treated from private hospitals for environment is unpleasant. Due to political my health problems, and rely on suffocation, movements like Pashtun Tahaffuz private security for safety. What is Movement (PTM) are swiftly moving the country the state doing for me? Where is towards a big crisis. In the debate of Pakistan’s the social contract? Another democracy, everything can be discussed except for question interlinked here is that those aspects which can actually pave the way for how can a democracy flourish our course correction and direct us on the path under a weak social contract? towards real progress. It is imperative to change the identity of this country from a security state to Zafar Ullah Khan a welfare state. It is also important that people’s It’s not that only the state’s will is respected and their rights are protected. We indisposition towards a contract is once went to India where our delegation members, the problem but also the society at while comparing Pakistan’s constitution to that of
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India, remarked that ours is better Parliament has concentration of power. When that than our neighbor’s. This can be power is not decentralized to the local true but we are unable to see any governments, the onus lies on the parliament. This implementation of it. Social way the governance is effected, the problems of contract is doomed to fail if the ordinary people compound. Unfortunately, we live judiciary, politics and media are in the grey area. Whether democracy exists or not, not allowed to work freely. the balance between priorities and authority is always upset. Abdullah Dayo Gaping the constitutional loopholes is the first step Why is politics so much stigmatized towards the redressal of problems. Constitution is in Pakistan? Politicians can be not a holy scripture. Countries around the world blamed for this perception but in keep amending their constitutions. We should do reality it is constructed. What is the the same. 18th amendment was a good milestone reason that politicians have such a however we have failed to implement it. Any damaged reputation while people further amendments within this system will be taking unconstitutional measures futile. All these matters must be preceded by a are still held in high regards in our national dialogue. Political parties should come society? together and discuss these matters in the Barrister Shahzad Akbar parliament. More importantly, we need this dialogue at the societal level. Matters discussed at I condemn every such action that the societal level have the potential to be is undemocratic, whether it is implemented. Martial Law or a semi-Marital Law. However, in the debate on Abdullah Dayo constitution, we should also be Ms Shazia Marri, you belong to a political party and discussing the loopholes in our you are also the member of the National Assembly. constitution which have actually How much have the political parties valued the given rise to many problems in our parliament? When there is a need for legislation, country. Many things are in need instead of a debate in the parliament, it is enacted of a redefinition. There can be no through an ordinance. How serious are the political second opinion on the continuity of parties themselves for a healthy democracy? democratic process but the failure of a democratic system cannot be Shazia Marri blamed on a single factor. Various Parliament is a supreme institution. Nevertheless, it factors come into play. When the is true that political parties don’t use it properly. only important factor in a system is Laws are passed through ordinances. Although the power, then the most disciplined of constitution permits ordinance but there are certain the players will be dominant. conditions for that. Here the session of parliament Parliament is weak because it has is postponed to the other day just to pass not defined its priorities and scope.
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ordinances. about suspending the 18th amendment. I fear that if this happens, then small provinces will express Afrasiab Khattak severe displeasure. Some people of the tribal areas Pakistan has a constitution but and Balochistan are of the opinion that their ethnic practically it is governed by cleansing is underway. The solution to the lawlessness. The interference of problems of small provinces must be sought. non-political forces in our system Dialogue should be initiated with Balochistan and has led us to where we are today. [erstwhile] tribal areas. Our state is ready to Throughout our history, the dialogue with Afghanistan but it’s not ready to talk periodic derailment of democracies to the people of Balochistan and tribal areas. has crippled our system. Martial Q/A Session Laws never had any justification. No matter how worse the situation Question gets, political process cannot be Listening to the discussion of the political toppled. It is surprising that after representatives here made us realize about their so many pitfalls we still haven’t helplessness. Some of them lamented that political learned our lesson. Even now some parties have surrendered. In such situation, can we people are paving the way for expect anything better? If political parties consider justifying a Martial Law, even themselves so helpless, then why are they sitting in though the democracy today only the parliament? And my second is that why can’t exists in the name. Fascism is we see new political leadership in the country? knocking at our doors. Pakistan can [continue to] exist on the Question foundations of a federal democratic state. We didn’t accept this back in Since our independence we are divided into 1971 owing to which the country different nationalities. When can we become a disintegrated into two parts. If we single nation? were wise enough, we would have Question made Hamood Ur Reman Commission Report a part of our What is national interest? This needs to be defined curriculum. Had we learned because it seems if this is the root cause of many anything, the aforementioned problems. And secondly, in my opinion, the 1973 report would have been taught in constitution is full of contradictions. Article 19 talks Kakul Academy. Mistakes are used about freedom of expression. However, the to learn [lessons] but we don’t succeeding articles undermine that. want to learn. The underlying Dr Abdul Malik Baloch causes of the country’s breakdown are internal. Equal representation As far as the emergence of young political should be given to all in the leadership is concerned, it is inevitable that they National Assembly. There is a talk will come forward. Student unions are banned. If
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young people are given a chance live with their identities. to come forward, then Shazia Marri opportunities will be presented to the children of the elites. Those The existence of diverse identities is not a problem politicians who have done the but taunting others on it is. It is thought that by politics of resistance belong from a merging identities the federation will become grass root political background. strong. In doing so, the provincial units feel threatened which in result makes the federation Zafar Ullah Khan weak. It is also noteworthy that when a specific One can find authoritarianism in group demand its rights based on its identity, they the political parties of Pakistan. are tagged as playing a card. It’s a matter of They have structured their system winning or losing. The power of units is the power in a such a way that cannot sustain of federation. Every political party advocates for resistance for long. By using amendment in the constitution. At least articles parliament, all these issues can be 62,63 should be abrogated, which were enacted by solved which our politicians are a dictator. Or it should be restored to the way it lamenting. But they haven’t dared was in 1973. it. The political leadership that Barrister Shahzad Akbar came in 2018 was the one that had left the politics or country in times We need to create political space for the youth. It of hardship. Now they are in the is the most necessary thing to do. This space can parliament. The political faction is be nurtured in any form whether it is student directionless. They don’t have a unions or trade unions. Youth inclusion in politics clear and concrete vision to govern doesn’t necessarily has to come through student the state. unions. Political activism of youth in Pakistan is diminishing. Youth are better equipped to The constitutional articles which understand the problems of their country and are talk about rights have been made in a better position to give policy cumbersome with various recommendations. Give them the space and interpretations and conditions. opportunity to do so. No one can impede freedom They need to be reviewed. Apart of speech. Every government tried their best to from that, it was asked that when curtail the freedom of media but failed. Our will we become Pakistanis. This experience suggests that when restrictions were approach is not right. Solidarity imposed on TV channels, more vociferous dissent and unity are different things that started on social media as the journalists shifted to can coexist with multiple identities. YouTube channels which have a wider reach. Various identities are like a Political parties should also strive for creating space bouquet. It should be cherished within their ranks. and people should be allowed to
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DIALOGUE 2:
STATE, SOCIETY AND RELIGION
Muhammad Amir Rana by the government. Same is the case with every (Moderator) other institution that deals with Madaris who have no idea how the Madaris actually function. Religion plays a vital role in our Extensive research is being carried out in Pakistan society in two important ways. First, and abroad to understand the structure of it is the bedrock of our societal structure and influences the power Madaris. During this research, Madaris are being dynamics and political order of the reached out to include their point of view. The country. Secondly, the state’s policy fact is that there is no dialogue with Mardaris in for religion and religious actors has Pakistan. Dialogue is a key to solving problems nurtured a unique trend of religious and it should directly be conducted with the parties in politics. To talk on this concerned party. In essence, the biggest hurdle in topic, I would like to invite Dr Madaris reforms and addressing fundamentalism Dietrich Reetz, Professor of Political in Pakistan is communication gap. Science at Centre for Modern and Oriental Studies, Freie University Dr Ammar Khan Nasir Berlin. Professor Reetz has pointed towards a very Dr Dietrich Reetz important fact that the biggest impediment in resolving any issue is lack of communication. Pakistan’s religious structure and Religion is an integral part of Pakistan’s identity dynamics are very complicated. As a therefore its responsibility cannot be left to any researcher who has studied the one group. Educational discourse is another thing religious institutions of both India in which usually one segment’s role in prominent, and Pakistan along with studying the however, in its formation, the needs and religious movements of Malaysia, possibilities of a society cannot be ignored. The Indonesia and South Africa, I think usage of the term “religious segment” is also very Pakistan needs to revisit its contested, since there is no single group that can approach in dealing with the represent religious segment of our society. Public religious seminaries (Madaris). This at large considers those people leaders who are issue needs to be analyzed in the actively visible in the society. Real intellectuals contextual manner, not through who do research and are farsighted are meagerly superficiality and hearsay. For represented in our society. These scholars have example, it is not easy to implement extensively worked on the topics of modern states the package introduced for Madaris
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and political order, of which the practical steps are an important element of public at large is not aware. As a dialogue, in the absence of which the dialogue is result, people who have superficial futile. The biggest hurdle in the educational knowledge and are sensational have process is the selection of boundaries. If the assumed the face of the religion in opposition assumes that its job is to only criticize, our society. then nothing constructive will happen. Before starting a dialogue in a repressive environment, it Dr Muhammad Khalid Masud is better to first understand that environment. In the 21st century, religion has Dialogue is reaching a consensus despite having a again assumed an important place in difference of opinion. This consensus is not the world and is being debated eventual rather a part of the process of mutual everywhere. Therefore, if the debate understanding. is related politics or ethics or In the religious teachings, the word “Khitab” is constitution, the discourse is being used which means dialogue. Fatwa is also a seriously associated to the religious discourse in which interaction is held with people. aspect. During the past two We need to return to basic teachings of our centuries, the ideology of Positivism religions. Modernism and religion couldn’t develop was dominant in the societies, which a healthy relationship between them. Since our out-spaced the religion. Its impact society was introduced to modernity in the was seen in every discourse. Colonial era owing to which it was always viewed Societies which are not abreast with with suspicion. It is due to this suspicion that we the progressive trends still view were unable to adopt the human values of religion through the lens of modernism and only considered technology as Positivism. This perspective also modernism. Similarly, the coexistence of religion needs to be changed. and politics has been very uneasy. Basic “Dialogue”, in its definition and governance, which is a social notion, has also purview, is going through various been affected by ideological debates. It is said in phases. Dialogue on religious our religious references that a system based on discourse, in the past, was held Kufr (disbelief) can sustain but cannot sustain under the influence of Positivism in based on injustice. This means that socio-political specific limits. This philosophy has order shouldn’t be integrated with the religion. now changed. One of the problems Theological debate in a political order gives rise to with our society is also that it is not confusion in the system. conducive for religious dialogues. Dr Qibla Ayaz What ought to be said isn’t being said. What ought to be heard, isn’t Since 1980s, a social change in Pakistan was being heard. It is also noteworthy to observed in which sensationalism found its roots mention that Dialogue is not only in the society. Over the last two years, as the limited to verbal conversation; Chairman of Council of Islamic Ideology, I have
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observed that the society believes in rising middle class? things on its face value. Our Dr Dietrich Reetz perception about religion stems from the appearance of a person. The This question pertains to the whole world and is true spirit of religion is cooperation, being debated continuously. We try to sincerity, helping others, and comprehend religion from it individuals and kindness. The Holy Quran has laid institutions. It is important to understand it from huge emphasis on these things. the social perspective. Apart from being religious, Allah commands us through His holy scripture to provide things to other these groups are also a part of this society. In human beings. Smiling, giving South Asian context, various factors come into someone time and helping others play in the mass mobilization of people in the are teachings of every religion, name of religion. Social structure is dependent on including Islam. Such people have it. Religion is used to solve the problems of poor existed in religious segments who governance. Religion and religious parties are preached the ethical and human always counted upon in the Martial Law regimes. values to the society. But an After the Cold War, identity politics became a overview of our society reveals that global phenomenon. Religion, history and culture the religious spirit has faded away. One can get a very clear idea of how are being used as references in the complex our society thinks from the sort of problems of society and economy, across the questions that the Council receives globe. It is the responsibility of the politicians to through the Citizen Complaint Portal refrain from fanning identity politics in the times of Government of Pakistan. For of adversity and focus on the issues from a example, there are suggestive realistic perspective. queries like “Council should ban the fashion of trimming beards,” or Muhammad Amir Rana “Council should enforce segregated Why is religion being used as a tool for non- arrangements for females in uniformity in the society? Whether it’s on the educational institutions,” among sectarian grounds or on the political front, we others. don’t see a constructive role of religion. Muhammad Amir Rana Dr Ammar Khan Nasir Dr Dietrich, do you believe that the If you see religion from the perspective of its prominence attained by religion in teachings, it’s a very different thing which sub-continent cannot be observed in preaches peace and prosperity. However, when it other parts of the world? Does it have to do something with the DNA dawns on a society, it morphs into a completely of this region, or the socio-political different shape. Its reason is the diverse historical structure, or is it because of the and traditional factors along with the
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contemporary needs which inform society? Does he feel like a stranger? the religious as well general Dr Ammar Khan Nasir conditions of a society. The debate of role of religion in a society is This notion that the students of madrassas are usually framed through the actions strangers to society or are unaware of the outside of religious groups. For example, if a world is the result of lack of understanding about religious political party fails to play a Madaris. It was certainly a case in the past but constructive role in a society, an now things have changed. Particularly in this era argument is made that religion has of social media, young people take interest in socio-political issues and have their opinions. no place in politics. This is a However, it is possible that feeling of dilemma which gives rise to many estrangement might be found in the young problems. In a state whose Madaris students of far flung rural areas, foundations are built on the identity nevertheless, it cannot be generalized. The said of religion, it is contradictory and at perception about Madaris has been constructed the same time not possible to by the Western media. relegate religion from its politics. Second problem pertains to the Question religious groups. Compared to the Recently the film “Zindagi Tamasha Hai” was sent past, their space in the societal to the Council of Islamic Ideology for a review. Do realm in now shrinking. Now their you think it’s the mandate of the Council to do single most challenge is to defend such a thing? their position in mainstream society. Dr Qibla Ayaz Since the colonial era, religious groups are no more stakeholders in Giving its opinion on films is not the mandate of the state affairs. Therefore, all of the Council. Since the government asked us, their efforts are concerted to revive therefore we decided to take it up. However, it their relevance. However, in this won’t be a decision rather an opinion. Power of struggle, the spirit of religion and its making a decision lies with the government. ethically constructive role is being Question compromised. What is the role of religion in society and politics Question on the global level? Why is its nature of relationship different in Pakistan? My question to Dr Ammar Khan Nasir is that how does a madrassa Question graduate, after spending so many Our state itself promotes sectarianism. How can years in seclusion, feels when he we blame others? If a person submits an comes out and interacts with the application to CDA for constructing a mosque in
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Islamabad, he is asked about the that, principles of modern state and Islamization sect for which the mosque is being created more complexities. Dr Muhammad Asad built for. Appointments in Council of ascribes Islamization to Westernization. Another Islamic Ideology and Ruet e Hilal problem we are faced with is that our intellectual Committee are being made on canvas for religion is very narrow. Our religious sectarian basis. How can we expect identity is sectarian and class based. If someone a constructive face of religion in this thinks or speaks differently, he/she is branded as case? someone who aspires to create a new sect or class. Dr Khalid Masud Dr Dietrich Reetz Study of religious norms in Pakistan is incomplete without studying its This is true that when religions come under the historical perspectives. Shariah lens of society, its various aspects should be always held a special place in the studied thoroughly. Religious narratives are polity of Pakistan. Religious groups undergoing transformation in different countries. considered themselves above the Religious dimension has been very prominent in law. They didn’t allow the state to the American society. Under Trump interfere in their internal matters. administration, new perspectives and influences State and law have been under the of religious identities have surfaced. Politicians influence of jurisprudence. Although use political rhetoric against each other on religion and state were separated religious identity basis. A debate on religion through Legal Positivism in the should include the discussion on the factors and Colonial period, religious laws were implications of transformation of religious saved as personal laws. Apart from narratives across the globe. Islamic banking is an that, when Pakistan was founded, a emerging system. It has granted a religious law was enacted which defined ethical footing to the Capitalist banking system. It Muslim as a person who believes in is a common practice in the developed countries, Shariah. All of this had impact on having diverse societies, to lend support from the Pakistan after its formation. After ethical foundations of religion for statecraft.
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DIALOGUE 3:
HAVE WE WON THE WAR AGAINST TERRORISM?
Dr Jochen Hippler (Moderator) civilians sitting in a hall engaged in dialogue be considered to be in a safe environment? Or does If we look into the repercussions of there have to be security personnel guarding terrorism during the past 8 years, civilians for the environment to be considered we will realize that there can be safe? In traditional terms, does the presence of seen considerable improvement. security personnel everywhere not give the During 2019, close to 350 died due impression that the environment is a victim of to extremism, and although these insecurity? figures, when looked at in the global context, appear grave, but when Tariq Parvez done so in Pakistan’s [context], The war against terrorism hasn’t been won yet: appear satisfactory as compared to to reach this end will require traveling a lengthy the past’s. Amidst such road. The number of terrorist attacks and deaths circumstances, my question is that was extremely high. The conditions of today have has this improvement become to a great degree stabilized and an improvement possible because of the of around 90 percent has been observed. When implementation of pertinent policies in 2009 extremists took over Swat, they would and political agenda by the state? Or say that Islamabad is merely 100 kilometers far: because the problem still persists this created an air of restlessness and people but its impact severity has for now though that situations couldn’t be brought under been minimized? My second control. That restlessness was rooted out. During argument is that the term ‘War on the past few years, not only has there occurred a Terror’ isn’t clear. This was decline in extremism, but every year has been introduced by the US and appears better than the previous one: this is an indicator more like a fight against armies and of the fact that we are headed to the right people. Terrorism is a concept and direction. This, without a shadow of doubt, is a doesn’t have any material existence result of the political process and policies that that can be relinquished. Is this war have of late been implemented. But what cannot bringing an end to terrorism? be ignored is the fact that in the past year alone, Another thing that needs to be shed there took place 229 terrorist attacks, which light upon in countries and societies makes it 4 per week, wherein 350 have been is the explanation of ‘security’. Does killed (1 person per day). Despite the evident it mean stopping killings? Can
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improvement over the past in term Baghdadi grabbed hold of the lead ropes, and of [incidents of] terrorism, terrorists even the US was satisfied with the fact that Sunni have not failed to prove that they extremism will no more surface. After three years can make matters worse. Last year, in 2013, a horrific scene was created. North Waziristan, once a terrorists’ Why did terrorism return to Afghanistan and Iraq? base, was where the most terrorist Simply because the US and the rest of the world attacks took place, while 20 districts announced victory before the right time. In the of Balochistan were also affected. context of Pakistan, I shall say that although we Extremists may have weakened, but have amassed victories, it is not high time we they are yet to be defeated. called it a win. I think that to claim that the War on About the experience of Iraq, it is inevitable to Terror has been won is similar to say that after Zarqawi’s death when it was giving the terrorists the opportunity thought that Sunni extremists had been defeated, to come to the fore with more the Iraqi government set about suppressing any intensity than before. Take the Sunni political mobility during the time, so much example of Afghanistan. In 2001 so that a major part of the Sunni leadership and 2002, we and the US thought wasn’t allowed to take part in elections. After that the Taliban had been defeated, weakening extremists, trying to suppress Sunni’s that they were nowhere to be seen, political rights was a grave mistake, and was as if that they had shaven their beards extremists were invited to reappear on the scene. and were hesitant in coming out in The question I would want to ask here is that the public in their getup. But in aren’t we doing the same by trying suppress the 2004, the Taliban returned depicting Pashtun Tahaffuz Movement? great power: the primary cause behind this was that the US had Finally, to conclude, I want to put forth a few thought that the War on Terror had things. I have already made clear that it will be been won and that it was about time extremely premature to say that the War on they diverted their attention to Iraq. Terror has been won. The second thing I want to The Taliban gained strength slowly, shed light upon is the fact that the lead ropes of and the US is now forced to come to the War on Terror need to be handed over by the terms with them. The same security agencies to the civilian institutions. There happened in Iraq. In 2006, Abu was a lot of noise before and the need was that Musa Zarqawi was killed following military leadership took control of Swat and tribal which terrorist attacks in the country areas. But the actual war against terrorism can decremented. The US and entire only be fought by the civilians, and for this world thought that the back of purpose, the latter’s capacity ought to be Islamic State had been broken. From improved and incremented, including of the police 2006 to 2010, terrorism weakened and judiciary. The third important thing to be year-by-year. Then, Abu Bakr al- taken into account is that apart from extremism’s
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militant side, its others aspects too there taking place decrement in the number of need to be tended to. Extremist terrorist attacks. ideology should be countered, its The question that arises here is that how come funding stopped, and normalcy the graph of terrorism declined? I believe that brought into the lives of the people after the APS attack, there has been observed a living in terrorists’ former bases. change in the military ideology owing to which Tariq Khosa matters have changed for good. There are three angles of the topic of terrorism in Pakistan: Until we accept our mistakes and Mullah and his ideology, armed extremists for speak the truth, we won’t be able to whom the state cleared the way, and the army. progress. Dr Jochen Hippler put The improvement that came about after the APS forth his concerns about the term attack owes its existence to the change in military ‘War on Terror’. It is true that owing doctrine. Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kiani said in Kakul in to this term, the entire focus and a speech that the biggest challenge for Pakistan concept of countries’ internal comes from within and not from India. After this security and their structure tilted change in doctrine, an operation was carried out towards militancy. The issue of in Swat. Gen Raheen Sharif targeted these extremism is one of ideology and is elements within their base, North Waziristan. linked to multiple factors including Military courts were built. The Karachi operation societal. When there is a mistake in took place. These robust and serious steps the direction of the state’s policies, brought about a decrement in extremism. By way elements of terrorism and extremism of constitutional amendment, FATA’s merger into rise to the top. Therefore, the term KP was a great step. But mistakes are still being War on Terror is confusing, unclear, committed. The people that have been affected and wrong. My second point is that by military operations are yet to be compensated if Pakistan has become a security and rehabilitated. Pashtun Tahaffuz Movement state, it is because of the state’s that comprises mostly of people belonging to policies. During Gen Zia ul Haq’s these areas need to be listened to, otherwise it tenure, society was intentionally too will prove problematic. made to fall prey to extremism whose repercussions we are still Extremism can only be defeated if the ideology grappling with. We don’t have an and mindset behind it is defeated, and for this, unambiguous paradigm for national both civilian and military institutions need to security. The state needs to be unite. I asked the army chief last year as to forced into adopting a model of whether or not terrorists entering Punjab after human development. The social these operations will find shelter there, to which organization needs to be worked on he said that since January they and the civilian anew, and until we take these steps, government had decided that the game of proxies terrorism will continue to haunt will no more be tolerated. This decision was taken society and peace therein despite not as an aftermath of the Pulwama attack but is
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the state’s own policies apropos not only in Pakistan but in the entire world. which there can be no compromise. Pakistan became a hub of extremism in the The roots of extremism don’t lie in 1990s, and extremist elements from Middle East the same place for them to be and other countries entered Pakistan. The fabrics exterminated at once, for attention of terrorism in Middle East are in many ways needs to be paid towards different similar to those in Afghanistan. We were part of aspects and in different directions. A all that happened in Afghanistan and also claimed soldier can claim that he has beaten that we broke the Soviet Union into pieces. After terrorism, but the reality can be the US came, extremist elements within began different than that. Gen Janjua once mobilizing themselves inside Pakistan. 5000 said this in a gathering, to which I soldiers were killed in a decade. And after a long said that he as a soldier can claim struggle, extremists were weakened, but the this, but this victory is far from being elements still persist. achieved. If the US-Taliban talks turn out successful, it Zahid Hussain won’t mean that war there has come to an end. Whatever happens in Afghanistan will, like it has President Bush after the 9/11 in the past, bear upon Pakistan. Besides, attacks set about the War on Terror sectarian extremism in also a serious domestic without thinking about its meaning issue that is proving extremely fatal. and its repercussions. The war, Afghanistan was made a victim of, Naseem Zahra was actually vengeance. It could Before 1979, Jihadi ideology was prevalent in have been possible that those several Muslim countries and so did its parties. responsible for the 9/11 attacks hid But now that a new phase has set about, this there, but the war couldn’t take the ideology has crossed its limits and has become path it was destined for. After 9/11, international. Soviet ideology was considered however, the world is less safe. anti-Islamic. During this time, Jihadists from all If we talk about extremism in over the world came to Pakistan via Afghanistan. Pakistan, we see that there are both They were trained and assigned tasks, and then internal and external causes behind surfaced proper Jihadi organisations; and for this, it. All that happened in Afghanistan we were not forced. affected Pakistan as well. Since
1980s, Jihad and armed extremism became part of the state’s policies,
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DIALOGUE 4:
IS OUR ENVIRONMENT CONDUCIVE FOR CREATIVE EXPRESSION?
Dr Fouzia Saeed (Moderator) Areeb Azhar
The main question of this session The question we are discussing today is one far- is whether or not the environment off. Baba Buley Shah wrote a poem titled Chup Kar in Pakistan is conducive for K Karen Guzara Nun wherein he complains about creative expression, and if not, the suppression of truth. Therefore, it is a problem what are the challenges we are adhering to all societies and times. But there does confronted with? exist a difference between the past and today: that in the past the problems for creative expression Yasir Pirzada were from the institutions that were It is true that a peaceful representatives of the state or were its environment is required for subordinates, but it is different now, and, besides creative expression wherein an state oppression that continues to exist, a kind of artist can freely demonstrate his sponsorship is imposed by society that is extremely art. But art doesn’t really only frightening. Before mouthing a word, whether or require such an environment and not the environment is conducive and appropriate can also be expressed in an has to be known beforehand. When questions are oppressive environment. We see raised on social media, fear and complexities are that despite tough and unhelpful given rise. And this incompatibility is not only conditions in the past, literature necessarily because of the religious communities and art have done wonders, and but owing also to many other communities that that too of the kind that hold find themselves entangled upon the basis of immense value: one example of identity. Social media is oftentimes pressurised to a this is the literature of Russia that degree that discussions on certain topics disappear. was put forth amidst tough times. This aggravates the impediments to creative Creative environment is never expression. conducive, and so it shouldn’t be Shahid Mehmood Nadeem hoped for. If art has an objective of its own and is free, then trying Creation means chalking out novel ways, and it is to find perfect conditions for it is in different times that art manifests itself in the futile. State guardianship bears most beautiful of ways. Ajoka Theatre was founded upon its objectives and freedom. in 1984. That was the time when media, politics, art, and everything else related to these were
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restricted. The concept of street Shahid Nadeem said that when during times of theatre surfaced and became oppression messages can still be put forth; and famous during the same time. If examples were posited from the past too. But if we creation has in it passion and look into it deeply, we realise that those were also freedom, it can propagate its times of movements. Hope was alive, and it was so message at all times. Oppression even during Zia’s time. But there appears to be no teaches people new ways of hope today. There is another graver problem that expression. Figurative/symbolic the state has altered society’s mental make-up. literature emerged during the time Nowadays, when people come up with any artistic of Zia. It was also a time when, work while oppression is prevalent, nobody bothers failing to put forth our opinion, we to take interest. This proportion is gradually would use the works of literary lessening. Stalin was discussed: his time has been figures to voice our concerns. criticised by the Western countries a lot. When the Humour can also be a way to Russian minister for information would go and express earnest thoughts. When attend international conferences, he would be the Swat operation took place, asked questions. He was once asked as to what stage dramas were held there, benefits did the revolution render as there whose tales, although old, depicted seemingly didn’t surface anybody like Chekhov and criticism for the extremism of the Tolstoy. He responded by saying that although time. It is not always important to they didn’t produce any Chekhov or Tolstoy, but render messages in words overt to what had actually happened was that if in the past people, which can decipher things, five thousand people read Tolstoy, five lac people albeit in symbolic terms, given read him now. Hence, society’s intellectual their environment. construction bears importance that understands and appreciates an artist’s work. We have our own Dr Fouzia Saeed Ghalib and Mir, but how many people read them? I want to ask Ghazi Salahuddin as What respect will be attached to art and literature to whether or not a perpetual in a country where there are no libraries? I believe environment of oppression put into it is important that the reasons behind why art and place by state proves negative and creative expression become derogatory need to be grave. We saw when censorship paid attention to. State’s narrative can be a reason; was imposed during Zia’s time, religious ideology can be responsible; education is artists thought that when the time flawed and there is no freedom in educational comes, they will restart their work. institutions. Even if art surfaces in such a society, But even when Zia’s time did come what good will it be of? to an end, the air had thinned so Iftikhar Arif much that there was no need for Zia to be there anymore. I want to begin by saying that no literature can be considered respect worthy until it has its roots Ghazi Salahuddin attached to people and their issues. The literature
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of the Left is criticised on the mental devotedness aren’t made the primary grounds that it is a temporary one; subject and light is shed upon the on-going events but a temporary literature that and priorities are defined based on them. People amasses people’s praise and need to be voiced. People’s issues are the first and attention is better than the one foremost thing and no literature should ignore that is external and whose impact human welfare. It is true, as has already been can only be visible in the long run. discussed, that on the societal level appreciation Russian literature was discussed for literature and art is declining which is also very here. I want to mention that only painful. To fill this gap, the presence of a the Russian literature that was progressive political force is a necessity. If this isn’t appreciated in the West became active, this gap can then neither be filled by popular [here], and it was mostly writers, and nor by the media or any other person the one that was against the or institution. Russian revolution. On the other Shahid Mehmood Nadeem hand, the literature that takes the side of Russian revolution is known When we talk about creative expression, we need to very few people owing to the to understand that we cannot keep it tied to certain fact that it was not made popular. laws and priorities. The role of the artist is to keep The latter is a literature of quality the need for a movement alive in society. Reaching and volume. the depth of issues and finding their solutions are The literature that was written in society’s collective responsibilities and aren’t things the second decade of the twentieth an artist should be expected to undertake. An artist century was different. The art that isn’t supposed to tell you what justice and was created after it was under the patriotism are and how can hope be defined. If influence of ideologies. In our artists cannot teach people the manners of country, a literary figure would also expression, they cannot be artists in the truest be considered a thinker. The sense of the term. And although artists find it hard literature that has been produced to put forth their message, but advent of social in the Indian Subcontinent is media has made it easier for them to do so, and greater in quantity than those of the need for making several organisational other countries, but we neither arrangements isn’t felt anymore. Now, millions of read our writers nor know them. people can be accessed from the comfort of one’s Our writers have set their priorities home. Last, creative expression should never come right, and this is what is good to an end, however weak a shape it exists in. about them. When there’s chaos prevalent on your land and you are Areeb Azhar faced with innumerable problems, I would want that we also talk about the art that is then it becomes significant that presently prevalent in our society. The institutions one’s personal disclosures and that, besides having influence, promote art in
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society are below par. A major with people. Is the environment of the country share of our youth has the conducive for this? Painting classes are being potential to posit art, but they have relinquished in our educational institutions; music not been provided enough has been banned. There are very few elite opportunities and nor are their institutions left where they still remain intact. What efforts appreciated. The economy does future have in store for the ordinary creative of art also needs to be assessed. If artists and what do you think should be done to a skilled artist creates something protect their space? from the comfort of their home, Yasir Pirzada how far does their work reach, how do they earn their bread, and This is again a problem of societal consciousness. whether or not they get the Keeping art alive and eliminating the impediments satisfaction from it that could force in its way require that the societal structure and them to continue their work? consciousness are mobilised for it and their relationship strengthened. Resistance against bans Yasir Pirzada cannot be made possible without society’s help. Creative expression can take place Artists need to make their art lively, the need for amid oppression too, but it can be their art felt, and this will, in turn, help make the the other way around. There are environment conducive. In the Pakistani society, societies within the world where talking about the fundamental rights that hold the there is no freedom and whose value of being the society’s soul and spirit is literature we have heard nothing disliked. The artists and poets who make ground about: South Korea is one such realities the subjects of their work are disliked example country we know nothing because it is believe that they are controversial about with regards to it literary people. works. In Gulf countries, there is abundance of wealth but there Areeb Azhar cannot be found any freedom of Making the environment conducive for creative expression which is why they have expression is first and foremost state’s not produced art of value. When responsibility. Through curriculum and education societies become so congested, institutions, an environment can be created that artists disappear. In Pakistan, attaches value to art, heightens it, and ensures young artists use social media. The resistance in case there are bans imposed. An artist expression that is taking place here does what his abilities allow him too. When an is in many ways intriguing. environment of oppression is imposed, pessimism Dr Fouzia Saeed takes over gradually and art’s freshness withers away. Resultantly, the literary works aren’t There is a kind of creative produced that are produced in an environment expression that comes from fraught with freedom. experts and is of value, and then Shahid Mehmood Nadeem there is another that is concerned
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If the societal consciousness’ level Iftikhar Arif isn’t too high, I would say artists th shouldn’t step back. If you find After the 18 Amendment, matters pertaining to problems, you should give them culture and education were handed over to the tongue in a manner that is provincial governments. This could have been an decipherable for society. The tone effective step, but it couldn’t be taken any practical and rhetoric ought to be changed advantage of. Provinces still look towards the in oppressive times. centre, whereas the latter believes that these are now the provinces’ problems to deal with. If we Ghazi Salahuddin want that our relationship with our land and history strengthens, we need to keep alive our culture. State’s role is extremely important Only then we will be able to take pride in our and central. For one, when a culture and tradition. There is only one detailed pressure group exerts pressure to book available on the Mehrgarh civilisation. Gul help get a movie banned, it is the Naseer Khan, Azad Jamaldeeni, and Mubarak Qazi state that can step in, relinquish were poets of imminence, but their complete works the group’s pressure, and impose are yet to be published. Neither does the provincial its writ. Also, economic minister for culture do anything and nor does the development is also deeply related centre take any interest in it. What’s more ironical to creative expression, and the is that the Mohenjodaro’s monuments are only the state can ensure that. If worsening, and people are replacing the old bricks people’s economic conditions are with newer ones. We are a nation that relinquishes suitable enough, they will pay heritage. Departments about these civilizations attention to art, give it time, and should have been established in universities to attach value to it. State needs to facilitate research and study of our history and understand that art also helps in heritage and transmit it to next generations. The the furtherance of scientific public institutions established for the preservation development. Science fiction is a and protection of ancient monuments have been profession that developed nations set-up in Islamabad, and each time they organise appreciate and further. Art opens an event, they invite foreigners and elites: common avenues of thought and invention. people are ironically not aware of it. If we cannot think long-term, we need to at least ensure that our Dr Fozia Saeed country is safe enough for artists to address the fundamental human Towards the end of the session, I would like to add issues. What we, instead, see is a few points: one can have interest in fiction, art, that books get banned here: how and literature only if they are introduced to these, many people actually read books to in a good way, in their childhood. But if from the begin with? Amid such onset they are taught hatred for it that will for circumstances, it is our certain manifest it in later stages of their lives. responsibility to raise our voice. If When another country or organization awards any we relinquish fiction, how can of our artists, we begin criticising them instead of consciousness be awakened? taking pride in their achievement. Therefore, it is important that educational institutions build
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students’ interest in these things impediments. If a youth prepares anything of from the beginning. Furthermore, it value, makes a film, the mechanism required for its is not only oppression that publication and furtherance is not there. Hence, impeded art’s growth, institutional publication of art only becomes possible via issues too can become grave connections.
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DIALOGUE 5:
ECONOMIC INSTABILITY AND GOVERNANCE: IS 2020 THE YEAR OF HOPE?
Zaigham Khan (Moderator) our better economic performance during the time was solely because of that. To curb the effects of Before setting about a dialogue communism, Pak-US partnership was flourished. about the present economic In the 1965 War, fatalities were inflicted. By situation, we need to talk about 1970s, our economy had become shallow on the reasons for why we are where we inside after which the gap between the rich and are. Our rate of production was the poor only widened. A few families began [once] 6 percent, but during the having monopoly over the economic structure. past few years, the growth rate Situations of civil war surfaced, and the country remained 4 percent. As of now, the experienced divides. The then PM Zulfiqar Ali rate is 2.4 percent. This means that Bhutto was perceived from two varying angles: our per capita growth rate is zero. If one, his role was positive; two, his role remained we look into the increase in our harmful. I believe that he took some very population, it is double than those of important steps, gave our country a Constitution, our neighbouring countries, whereas strengthened the economic structure, established with regards to economic growth, the nuclear plan at a time when nuclear energy we lack behind by 50 percent. Till was considered to be an alternative to imported 1980s, we had efficient institutions, fuel. We became part of a war during the 1980s but they have weakened now. The during which the country received aid of around institution of governance is also very $50 billion. When Gen Zia ul Haq died, nobody fundamental, especially in the could know as to where did all the money go. developing countries, where it is a When Benazir Bhutto came into power, the prerequisite for economic government had to knock at the IMF’s door. improvement. Amartya Sen stresses During the time, the concept of free market vehemently upon the need of economy dominated and the private sector political economy. strengthened the results of which were negative. Zia Uddin The latter trend still continues.
The economic model we adopted Zaigham Khan over the past seven years is headed I ask Dr Kaisar Bangali if Pakistan is all the more towards a wrong direction. In the prepared for free market economy. We consider first two decades, our country our economy failure to be precisely because of depended entirely on the US, and
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neoliberal economy, but have we gas to lit our stoves only and could not devise a actually become part of this setup? comprehensive, more productive plan for it. Now, Similarly, during Ayub Khan’s times, gas is diminishing gradually and after a decade the concept of crony economy Sui may become barren. There is a complete lack surfaced: this concept has been of vision, and in particular during the past 40 criticised. I nevertheless believe that years, we have not critically evaluate our policies Gen Zia ul Haq’s step of bringing the and their outcomes. We squander money politicians into business and carelessly, thoughtlessly, and waste the public’s businessmen into politics was a money via initiating ‘white elephant projects’. novel phase of crony economy. For example, half of the sugar industries’ Nobody has thought of escaping from the IMF’s owners sit in the government while grip. We take loans and spend them without the other half are part of the proper planning, and when pockets are empty we opposition. How do you relate again go to IMF and other lenders. International governance with economy? monetary organisations not only issue loans and take interests, but they also take a political price Dr Kaiser Bengali in return. On the other hand, our political elite is Pakistan’s problem is that it didn’t always receptive to lend our political sovereignty. have a vision from the very Situations have become such that a country like beginning. What should be done, the KSA tells us not to attend the Kuala Lampur and which direction should we be summit, and we are forces to succumb to such headed were some of the basic demands. questions that remained Afshan Sabohi unanswered. The most primary reason behind this was that The elites of this country don’t feel that they owe resources were there but these were people’s trust. They in no way trust the political not properly utilised; nor was a clear setup of the country. I agree with Kaiser Bengali programme put in place. Gas has that there’s a lack of vision, and the elites don’t been extracted from Balochistan want to know anything about it. If/when we don’t over the past five decades, and this know a word about our problems, how can we was the kind of gas that was of expect them to be solved. The little information quality and didn’t require a lot of available pertaining to our problems isn’t digging. It could have been used to trustworthy. Until we understand our country and establish industries making plastic. make ourselves aware of its fundamental realities, The spaceships that enter space we cannot expect improvement and growth of have 80 percent of their material any kind. made of plastic. We could have been Rafi Ullah Kakar among the biggest suppliers of plastic to the world. But we used the When we talk about economy we say weak
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governance is responsible for its accountability, we only take into account the [poor] plight, which is largely true. latter two areas, but ignore the first. The failure But while talking about weak of the processes of transparency and governance, it is significant that we accountability manifest itself when the look into what this term means and relationship between citizens and their political what are various aspects of its representatives break. This can happen because manifestation in Pakistan. Failure of of the weak nature of the political parties and, the political action compounds the mainly, because of needless military intervention. problems, and hence its effects are When an artificial system is imposed, the evident on governance too. The sacredness of vote is compromised and people failure of political action is in fact a cannot elect representatives of their choice. An failure of the accountability process. artificial leadership that isn’t answerable to the There are three primary factors masses is imposed, and it is because of this that behind political failure in Pakistan: the whole chain of governance and accountability One, despotism and military breaks. One other reason behind this failure is the intervention; two, the very structure very structure of the federation. This structure of our federation; and three, doesn’t let a particular party to overtly carry institutional character and its issues through developmental projects for a province or similar to, just as was discussed, area. For example, coalition politics usually crony capitalism and other such prevails in Balochistan where horse-trading societal and cultural institutional continues to remain as an active aspect of making issues. political alliance and governments. Amid such circumstances, even if some one among The relation of military intervention Mahmood Khan Achakzai, Dr Abdul Malik, and with weak governance and how this Sardar Akhtar Mengal is made the PM once, they intervention bears upon won’t invest in their province if they ever want to transparency and accountability be elected again because doing so wouldn’t be of need to be discussed. Transparency any benefit to them. The third reason behind our and accountability are initially done political failures is crony capitalism that has through the voting and, practically, already been talked about. Gen Zia ul Haq it works on three levels: the first opened avenues for businessmen in politicians deals with the relation between and for the latter in businesses, and hence a common people and the elected political mafia was developed. People not fit for members; the second relates the politics entered the parliament. Ideological politics elected members with the and politics of decency were undermined. So, per bureaucracy; and the third rests se, these are the three primary reasons why the within the bureaucracy such as how process of transparency and governance have the Ministry of Education works with been affected as a result of which our economic teachers for various purposes. When is in tatters. we talk about transparency and
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Zaigham Khan Balochistan wouldn’t have been less developed today than Dubai. The present government had included ‘effective governance’ as a [Coming] back to the topic of governance and key element in its slogan of ‘change’. economic policies, I would argue that we have It thought that if the leaders are been dictated by the IMF over the past 4 pious and trustworthy, all of the decades. Economic policies have changed in country’s problems will be solved. almost all countries, but we are yet to experience But now that close to 3 years have any solid advance. Loans, in lieu of lessening, are passed, its performance hasn’t been incrementing. Whether it is the PML-N, the PPP, satisfactory. It is true that corruption or the PPP, economic policies continue to remain and accountability are among the unchanged. The problem of corruption isn’t only third world’s primary problems. The Pakistan’s but also of the developed countries. It question that looms large is whether can, however, be controlled, and one way of or not this government knows the doing it is to ensure the independence of true meaning of accountability and judiciary, media, and the robustness of the transparency. Is it not true that for parliament. In all civilised societies, corruption is accountability and transparency, the curbed by these institutions, and not through the strength of democratic process, rule institutions like we have NAB. The methods we of law, and for institutions to remain have adopted to end corruption are doomed to within their respective domains are fail. Economy is a complicated topic, and unavoidable prerequisites? I ask as perpetually asks for a responsible system. We to how would you assess the entire should see how those countries, who had initially situation. tried to advocate and strengthen capitalism, have now lost their trust in it. This isn’t to say that Zia Uddin they’ve relinquished it, but have been trying to Before addressing this question, I give it a second thought. Of late, samples of its want to talk about the example of novel features and countenance have surfaced Sui gas put forth here. Gas was including progressive capitalism and decent discovered in Balochistan in 1952. capitalism. World Economic Forum posited a Dubai and Abu Dhabi were sketch titled stakeholder capitalism. backward areas at the time, but In Pakistan, economy has been made to comprise when oil was discovered there, the of the private sector that doesn’t have in it a latter’s people, who didn’t have sense of ownership apropos the country. It sends homes to live in, began roaming all of its earnings abroad through money around is Mercedes cars. On the laundering. Therefore, it is important that the other hand, those in Balochistan dependence of the centrality of the economic who used to ride on donkey-carts structure on the private sector is ended and a still continue to do so. Had political system in established that doesn’t rely on this will and a viable vision been there, sector wholly.
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Zaigham Khan group doesn’t relate with the country and its problems, and uses all economic ideologies for its I ask Kaiser Bengali as to how much benefits. The US beat the Soviet Union in does corruption bear upon economic Afghanistan. Had that not happened, we would growth? With regards to controlling now have been a communist state. A country that corruption, India on the global index falls on the 80th position, Pakistan on runs without a vision of its own in sight doesn’t 120th, while Bangladesh takes the have any policies of its own. Personal benefits of 146th position. This means that India a certain group usually run the show. We has a better system of controlling shouldn’t even be discussing as to what economic economic mishandling, but that policies has the party in power adopted, for Bangladesh is worse than us in this neither does it have any policy of its own and nor regard. But if we look into the has it done any homework. The IMF’s programme figures of economic growth, India has been implemented which runs the state of and Bangladesh are progressive at a affairs. The PM’s speeches are contrary to the pace rapid than ours. Amid such reality and to the ground realities. The things facts, how can we elaborate upon required for economic betterment are varying, the relationship between corruption but nobody seems to be interested in that. and economic growth? Afshan Sabohi Kaiser Bengali Change has come about, but it is not one that First of all, this is merely a one can appreciate. Our economy has received a ‘speculation’, and there doesn’t exist backlash. I don’t concern myself with any of the solid data to support it. Certain political parties, but there wasn’t as much people are sent some questions and insecurity before as there is now. The division of are asked to put forth their answers wealth is a problem in Pakistan, but a bigger based on which figures are put into problem is the production of. It was felt around place. I too have been part of such four years ago that the elites and businessmen an agency whose members would had actually gotten serious, and the main reason be sent questions and would be behind this was CPEC. An investment of around asked to respond to them based on 30 billion PKR was made in infrastructure, and the which, later on, an index would be shortage of electricity brought to an end. But prepared. Therefore, I don’t attach none of it could be observed during the past two any value to any corruption index. years. Those who could invest have stopped There is a concept prevalent in investing. Pakistan that says that corruption falls when a martial law is imposed There can be many reasons behind the worsening and increments when a civilian of economic conditions. Capitalism’s one quality is government is in power. that it only becomes active and renders result when an environment of competition is created. Elites control the economy. This
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In Pakistan, such an environment is Dr Kaiser Bengali not feasible since the system is Pakistan’s economy is on a ventilator. None of us based more on patronage than will talk about maintaining the ‘status quo’. When merit. budget deficit is beyond control and the rate of Zaigham Khan imports higher than that of exports, signs of the economy’s being on a ventilator will be apparent. Where do you see Pakistan’s I have a few suggestions for bringing about economy in the coming ten years, betterment in the country’s economic conditions. and what are the steps we need to Firstly, a ban should be imposed on the import of take to ensure economic growth? all futile products. When you go to a Zia Uddin supermarket, you will find plenty of imported products, which have little use and utility. Dogs If we continue with the present and cats’ food and hygiene products are also system, no change can come about. imported from other countries, and all of this is Investment in the social imported using the dollars lent to us. Secondly, infrastructure of Pakistan has industrial market should be encouraged instead of become the need of the hour. service market. For a country of the size of People need to be provided Pakistan, it is better that people instead of putting affordable education, healthcare money in the property and stock markets invest system, accommodations, and cheap in such a sector that can contribute in the proper resources of travelling, and until production of wealth and generate employment such a system is established that opportunities. Thirdly, state needs to cut its futile conveniently allows the citizens expenditures. When our income decreases, we these necessities, our predicament lessen our household expenditures, and this is will not alter. China helped millions what state too needs to do. There are certain of people living above the poverty state institutions from whom around 10 trillion line, not because it abided by PKR can be cut off. The biggest cut can come capitalism, but because it ensured from the defence sector, where there are many the provision of fundamental expenditures apart from those required to make necessities to its citizens, such as with regards to warfare. For example, if we travel education and skills. When from Lahore to Peshawar, we will see that after globalisation emerged, its society every 20-25 kilometres, there is a cantonment. was all the more receptive to meet These cantonments were built in the nineteenth it. China had prepared a social century during the British Raj when fear of the infrastructure worth trillions of army of the Tsar of Russia was prevalent. These dollars. And it is through investing in aren’t needed now. In short, our economy is the social infrastructure that the suffering because there lay upon it futile and production of wealth becomes unproductive expenditures. If economy is weak, possible. wars cannot be won.
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Afshan Saboohi needs to be organised in such a way that there develops a relationship between citizens and The predicament of our economy is policymakers and that helps revive the legacy of such that for a common man to live the parliament. Second, reforms need to be has become arduous. If this brought about in the state’s existing federal situation prevails, people will soon structure and new provinces could be made. take to roads out of frustration. A Political parties should try to put an end to the pertinent economic structure lacks, practice of delegating [development] funds to and the channels that can lead us to members of the national and provincial prosperity through ways of their own assemblies. Third, land reforms need to be made are not there. It is evident about the advancements in, and although people don’t think present government that it lacks the it to be a prerequisite, it is among the needs of ability to being things back on track the hour. Last, military’s businesses need to be and make the economy flourish. brought under a rule or procedure because Rafi Ullah Kakar army’s monopoly in many departments is increasing that, in turn, creates problems for I believe that until we improve the others. If this is not done, the country’s economy political economy, we cannot will suffer, overt competition brought to an end, achieve some appreciable feat. and the element of monopoly prevalent Therefore, certain things are everywhere. necessary. First, the political setup
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DIALOGUE 6:
YOUTH, STUDENT UNIONS AND EMERGING POLITICAL TRENDS
Sabookh Syed (Moderator) society. But a comparison with India suggests that Indian student unions have a strong and In the past, it was a general notion mature voice, which is lacking in Pakistan. What that youth participation in the do you think is reason behind that? politics of Pakistan is negligible. However, in the recent years, this Ammar Ali Jan has changed significantly. Vibrant Whenever the state pursues a policy of control, it, youth movements have emerged first and foremost, controls the means of from the backward areas of Pakistan communication. A conducive environment for with demands for their rights. Do critical thinking is curtailed. Some young people you think that social media was a do talk about the problems but under the catalyst in this situation? supervision of the state. This is a one-way Iqbal Haider Butt channel in which only a particular narrative is being peddled. Lack of communication in a I completely concur with this society leads to negativity and polarization. A argument. Emerging social changes severe form of frustration was found among the have triggered anxiousness in the young people of erstwhile FATA and Balochistan, people that they wanted to vent out. which couldn’t be assessed and responded. Now Social media has provided that movements like PTM are emerging as a result of platform for the youth to talk about this frustration giving voice to these young their problems, which paved the way people. Across the country, students are for powerful youth-led movements mobilizing to express their frustration with the to emerge. It has politically system. So, instead of heeding to their outcry, galvanized the youth. Even Pakistan state is making this a law & order issue. Social Tehrik-e-Insaf’s ascendance to media has given a virtual space to these power can be credited to the social youngsters, however, they won’t matter much media in Pakistan. unless they mobilize on the ground. Fascism is Sabookh Syed rapidly spreading across the globe, impacting every society. Countering it requires a strong Recently the student unions in mechanism, which we are currently lacking. Pakistan have surfaced with emerging political trends. Its reason is the myriad of problems in our
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Sabookh Syed Ahsan Hamid Durrani
Creative expression is usually Student unions are an integral part of a attributed to young people but in democratic polity. Their significance cannot be Pakistan it is seen that some youth understated. However, before starting a debate organizations are becoming a hurdle on the restoration of student unions in Pakistan, in it. Youth of some ideological we need to deliberate upon the framework, scope organizations are seen to be and mandate of the proposed student unions. involved in this. Organization with Pakistan is witnessing a demographic shift. About one ideology strives to hinder the 64% of its population is under the age of 30. progress of another organization While young population in the Western countries with differing ideology. Why is this is declining, ours is growing at a fast pace. It is the case? need of the hour that policymakers prioritize Umair Raja youth development. There is a clear generation gap between politicians and the young people of The reason is historical. Before Pakistan. Which is why the political elite is 1984, when there was no ban on apathetic to the problems faced by young student unions, an environment of generation. democratic competition existed. However, after the ban was Sabookh Syed imposed, this democratic process It has been experienced time and again that ceased to exist. In such a scenario, student unions promoted violence and gun various student unions took control of the institutions where they had a culture on campuses. How can we give them freedom in such cases? strong footprint. Punjab University and Quaid e Azam University are its Ammar Ali Jan two examples. Therefore, this is not due to the tensions between various Violence and gun culture is prevalent in every student groups rather due to the segment of our society. If you compare the rate suppression of democratic culture in of incidences of violence in the pre ban era to the educational institutes. In an open post ban era, you will come to know that the rate democratic environment at has increased. Despite the ban on unions, campuses, these tensions can be frequent clashes are being reported in the reduced. campuses. We need to differentiate between unions and student organizations. Unions Sabookh Syed functions under a set guideline and SOPs. On the other hand, organizations have held the Other than student unions, do we campuses hostage because they are not have any framework to support youth inclusion in politics? accountable to anyone. From top to bottom, our educational institutes are highly politicized. An
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argument is made that the Proper regulations and by-laws are mandatory for restoration of unions will badly affect student unions. This way, students will be bound the education in institutes. I want to by them. We have proposed a framework to the ask that since the time the unions provincial government of Punjab which is being have been banned, how much has reviewed. Supreme Court has issued a verdict on the education quality improved? We the non-politicization of student unions, which is are even behind Sri Lanka in literacy the right thing to do. rate and education quality. Student Umair Raja unions promote a culture of critical thinking which is highly needed, Looking at the current situation of our country, more than ever, for our society. we cannot decide anything for certain. One cannot suggest abolishing democracy just Sabookh Syed because of the current state of affairs in our Ideologically every party agrees that country. When unions were functional, Quaid e student unions should be restored. Azam University and Punjab University were It is also a demand made by most of among the top 200 universities of the world. the youth. What is then the reason Since the ban on the unions, education quality that the ban on these unions cannot has sharply deteriorated. be lifted practically? Q/A Session Iqbal Haider Butt Afrasiab Khattak The debate around the existence or Young people’s concerns are not taken into ban on student unions is very consideration by our state. Their genuine binary. If young people can cast a demands are viewed with suspicion and instead vote in elections, then they have of capitalizing on their potential, they are being every right to practice this in their questioned. lives at campuses. An important question that needs pondering is Mazhar Abbas about the nature of these unions. What was situation when these If unions are restored under a process that entails unions were banned and how are strong by-laws, then probability of violence can things right now? India has banned be significantly reduced. student unions in some of its states. Ahsan Hamid Durrani This needs to be studied. Those advocating for the restoration of State should involve young people in the decision- student unions must also come up making processes by giving them a seat at the with a concrete proposal on its decision making table. Russia is considered to be framework. an autocratic state. Even its President, Vladimir Putin, has a youth council which meets him Ammar Ali Jan frequently and advises him on youth affairs. The
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PTI government has constituted a organizations based on violent ideologies should youth council but hasn’t convened a be banned from taking part in student unions. For single meeting of that council yet. As this, it is important that a dialogue is held among far as the framework of the student various student organizations. unions is concerned, it is not the Ammar Ali Jan responsibility of young people to devise the framework. The Restoration of student unions is not the sole government should take the lead problem of youth on campuses but of the rights and take young people’s input in the and freedom of youth group at large at process. community level. Scope of unions is wide-ranging. It nurtures critical thinking, which then spill overs Dr Ishtiaq Ahmed to rest of the society outside the four walls of the Student Unions should be restored. campuses. Therefore, the issue of student unions But as discussed earlier, there should not be attributed to campuses only, it’s an should be a viable framework in issue of the society at large. place to regulate them. However,
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DIALOGUE 7:
POLITICAL AND STRATEGIC LANDSCAPE OF SOUTH ASIA: IS THE REGION IN A PERMANENT STATE OF CHANGE?
Munizae Jahangir (Moderator) conducive. But despite this, things were moving at a slow pace until the Mumbai attacks in 2008 My first question is about Indo-Pak after which relations between the two countries relations. Aziz Khan is with us here got extremely strained. Ever since the BJP has who remained Pakistan’s come into power, there has been no proposal of ambassador to India during any sort of negotiations. And now that Kashmir’s Musharraf’s era from 2002 to 2006. independent status has been brought to an end, He can expertly tell us as to what Pakistan’s behaviour has changed, and India, on factors are responsible for the the other hand, is also not willing to negotiate. unsmooth Indo-Pak relations for India fires bullets across the LoC every now and which we blame India and India then to which Pakistan responds to a certain blames us. degree with wisdom. India uses the card of Aziz Khan terrorism and this is how it has gotten many countries on its side. We have very limited Indo-Pak relations have always been options that we can use, such as making the subject to ups and downs. I was international community pay attention towards fortunate that when I was appointed the matter and making the world aware as to the as the ambassador, both countries suppression of the rights of people living in the had decided to talk and had agreed Indian Occupied Kashmir. upon reciprocal cooperation. The issue of Kashmir was central to our Munizae Jahangir part of negotiations, and this was at When Indo-Pak relations are discussed, Kashmir time widely discussed and there also and terrorism continue to remain issues widely occurred some progress pertaining talked about. Just as Aziz Khan said, Pakistan has to it via back channels that had very limited options. Is it really so or can other become popular as Musharraf’s ‘four steps be taken? point formula’. However, situation changed after a while. I think that Khalid Ahmad Manmohan Singh was serious in his It is true that the role Pakistan has played in the desire to negotiate with Pakistan, past as to the issue of Kashmir has not been but this matter was not simple received cordially internationally, and it continues there. The political environment for to be criticised. Both the countries are equipped the then government was not with nuclear weapons, and it is on this basis that
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Pakistan used to send non-state procrastination as to terrorism and extremism. elements to Kashmir owing to which We had asked China for political cooperation with it lost the support of international regards the issue of FATA, and when China said community. After India provoked that it will not use its political influence in the Article 370, the world is in coming meeting of the organisation, we went to incertitude as to the atrocities the US so as to get some relief. Asian countries committed against human rights, but believe that the region’s problems have been at the same time it doesn’t want aggravated because of Pakistan and India. There Pakistan to make active its non-state exists a complexity on the policy level in Pakistan elements again. The international in terms of balancing relations with China and the community stands at an end US. If we look towards the Middle Eastern opposite to ours in its quest to end countries, we realise that India has access there, terrorism and extremism from our and amid such times, China and CPEC’s country using [the instruments like] importance increments. And this is a complexity the FATF. And amid it all, the role of that neither India and nor any other Asian China is primary. China had country is confronted with. pressurised us for the Lal Masjid Munizae Jahangir operation, and this is true regardless of our not talking about it. There is The issue of diehard nationalism is prevalent both an international demand apropos the in India and Pakistan. Does there exist a removal of non-state elements possibility of advance from this position? Student because of which certain steps are movements are being organised in Pakistan that being taken. Osama bin Laden lived demand a shift in the state’s priorities. India too in Pakistan for a few years. has such movements. Is it possible for both International community noted these countries to come out of their circles? things. Dr Zafar Jaspal Munizae Jahangir I first want to make it clear that it is not only If Pakistan continues to remain in Pakistan responsible for strained Indo-Pak the FATF’s grey list, what relations. If a country, considering itself superior, consequences will it have for Indo- oversees all matters like a ‘security guard’, then Pak relations and what does it the other country cannot do anything normal. require us to do? Modi’s government thinks itself to be a security guard and considers Pakistan as inferior to it. BJP Muhammad Amir Rana won the elections of 2014 and 2019 using anti- I agree with Khalid Ahmad that Pakistan slogans. Therefore, Pakistan alone Pakistan is now trying to improve its shouldn’t be blamed. The second very important image internationally. The aspect is that warmongering in India overhauls international community, including the one in Pakistan, and this is evident from the China, doesn’t want to tolerate any budget they allocate for defence. And regardless
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of whether or not we want it, we are Afghanistan during the Taliban’s era. Do you think pushed towards war. All of the Pakistan can still influence the Taliban? And, if world’s powers sell their modern Pakistan plays its role and make the US happy, weapons to India, which has access what will India’s reaction be? to the defence markets of the US, Aziz Ahmad Khan Russia, and France. Pakistan, on the other hand, is forced to be part of One thing is clear that the Taliban are quite defence preparedness. Why does different than they were in the past. Today there the world not ask India as to why is also a different setup. I say this to Afghan does it spend a major part of its authorities and believe that the US too needs to budget on buying weapons of mass understand that today’s Taliban are different, destruction? In lieu, when matters novel. Therefore, saying that we can have any of this region are discussed, Pakistan influence upon the Taliban would be inaccurate. always remains the subject of It is, however, true that we enjoyed mutual discussion. When, a few days ago, relations in the past and played a role that even Alice Wells came to Pakistan, she the Taliban accepted, but it is not the same blamed CPEC and considered a anymore. They consider themselves an certain bloc responsible for all of the independent part of Afghanistan and still hold region’s problems. I believe that considerable operational power. They want to Indo-Pak conflict is not a regional take decisions on their own. Pakistan can talk to problem but an issue that is them and tell them as to what is in their interest. aggravated by political tensions We may be the nearest to them, but they will prevalent throughout the world. have the final say. As far as the propositions are When there’s a talk with South Asian concerned that India enjoys influence in countries, it is expressed and Afghanistan and that Pakistan’s role in the Afghan accepted, albeit not in clear words, peace process may have impacts on the Indo-Pak that global powers play a biased, relations, I don’t believe any of it holds any truth negative role in the Indo-Pak in them. Afghanistan has a different problem. conflict. Therefore, we shouldn’t The Afghans also know as to what does India consider Indo-Pak relations to be an want, and that in this regard, their own country is issue of these two countries only, their priority. There are two things central to but one that is interfered in by Indo-Pak conflict: their accusing us of terrorist global powers too. activities and our standing firm on the issue of Kashmir. After changing Kashmir’s status, Indians Munizae Jahangir didn’t know that Kashmiris would oppose it as Aziz Khan, the US demands that much as they did. The situation has become more Pakistan comes to terms with the of a test for India. I believe that India won’t be Taliban because it believes that changing its decision and will continue keeping its Pakistan still has some influence army in Kashmir. This is not an issue less upon them. You worked in challenging for Pakistan, for India considers
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Pakistan responsible for the invested in its human resources which is a sign of resistance being made and is the economy’s growth. Pakistan has, on the other perpetually creating tensions along hand, relied on non-state elements. the LoC. Munizae Jahangir Khalid Ahmad If India and Pakistan come to terms with one India has come forth with a new and another and make the environment conducive for different strategy, and is spending talks and trade, what options will Pakistan have heavily militarily. Pakistan feels that left for it? What are the limits that shouldn’t be it needs to respond. But times have crossed, and what steps would we be required to changed. India has a bigger take that would go in our support? economy than ours and can afford Muhammad Amir Rana to do what it does, whereas we are not in a position and strong enough Whether it be a situation of war or of normalising to follow suit. Their entire military relationships, Pakistan has very limited options, expenditure amounts to 1.2 percent although in the days to come there are of the GDP, while ours does to 3.6 opportunities that can help improve relations percent of our entire national between the two countries and melt the ice. One production. If India takes its military is the opportunity of the US’ bringing both the expenditure to more than 3 percent countries together for the Afghan peace process, of its economy, its common man will and the other is that of the SAARC conference not suffer. But if we continue with provided Pakistan succeeds in holding it here spending so much of our national which will allow opportunities for talks and can production, common citizens will break the negative air. There are some continue to suffer. Pakistan needs to challenging international matters that bear upon stop competing with India and Pakistan’s foreign policy brought into discussion instead needs to pay attention to its by the FATF. One such is the establishment of a economy and have the benefits of transparent system for the stoppage of financial its citizens atop its list of priorities. aid of terrorism. Pakistan, under the aegis of the Bangladesh has more to complain organisation, only undertakes the steps that are about India than we have, but they declared binding upon it, although internally the haven’t let their economy fall and structural change with regards transparency is have taken decisions that were in inevitable. Pakistan is also taking action against their favour. They trade with India, the banned organisations. Members of the FATF and have a GDP growth rate better believe that Pakistan is, this time around, serious than our and India’s. The primary in taking action against the non-state elements. thing, therefore, is economy. There The organisation requires practicalities for which will come a time when we will be Pakistan has been trying. But there is required succumbing to paying attention to the formation of a transparent structure on the our internal matters. India has grass root level which we do not for now see. We
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also lack capabilities. Q&A Session
Munizae Jahangir Question
Iran is one of Pakistan’s important Pakistan’s meaning isn’t merely Imran Khan, just neighbours. We say that we will as India’s isn’t Modi. Then why we focus much ensure impartiality in its case. the individuals and ignore societies of both During the times when we need the countries, including for bilateral talks? US’ cooperation, is it possible for us Aziz Ahmad Khan to remain impartial? Also, what impacts will it have for Pak-Iran It is true that there is a need for opening up talks relations? between the civil societies of both the countries, and when situations are normal, it does happen. Dr Zafar Jaspal However, the government is the ultimate impediment in this process that issues visas and While we talk about the topic of makes relations feasible. Pakistan is ready to ease impartiality, we ought not to be the visa issuance process and ensure the apologetic, that is that if we are intermingling of the two countries’ citizens, but impartial, it has its limits. When India doesn’t like it. Recently, a group from India Qasim Sulaimani was killed, groups wanted to come to Pakistan to visit the Katas Raj in Pakistan said that since Iran Mandir, and despite the fact that Pakistan had supports Pakistan’s stance on pledged to issue them visas, the Indian Kashmir, we should also stand with government refused. Iran in opposition to the US, Khalid Ahmad although Pakistan did protest his death. Impartiality and normalising There is a process of relations before talks relations don’t mean that they don’t normalise without which dialogue cannot be have any limits to them. Iran trades possible. The two countries need to talk to one with India and has rendered it a another on the governmental level, open avenues port. Saudi Arabia conferred its for trade, ensure free movement, and it is when highest award on Modi. Every all of these happen that civil society will march country prioritises its interests. The towards the process of dialogue. If propaganda same holds true for Pakistan. These prevails and facts continue to be snubbed, then countries’ proxies create problems in people alone cannot make dialogue successful. Pakistan. We should, like other Dr Zafar Jaspal countries, make decisions given the circumstances. Being apologetic in It is true that the role of governments is primary, one’s quest to be impartial isn’t but the civil society too doesn’t need to lay off its favourable. role. It needs to continue with its talks albeit on a small level. Both the countries are equipped with
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nuclear weapons, and if the Khalid Ahmad prevalence of propaganda and Things often aren’t in reality how they appear to hatred flourishes, situations will keep be. Before the Lal Masjid operation, some on worsening. Therefore, the civil elements from the mosque had abducted 14 society should help normalise people from Chinese massage parlours based in relations. Islamabad. The authorities of the mosque had robust relations with the leaders of al-Qaeda and Question Afghan Taliban. Pakistan cannot dare say Pakistan protests the Indian anything about what is happening in China, treatment with Indian Muslims, but although not much is known about that either. why doesn’t it say anything about Dr Zafar Jaspal what is being done to the Uyghur The issue of Kashmir cannot be compared with Muslims of China? the issue of the Muslims of Uyghur. Kashmir is a Aziz Ahmad Khan disputed territory that the whole world accepts, and Pakistan is its evident partner. The issue of Pakistan enjoys good relations with China is different. Foreign policy cannot be China, and it is because of this that determined on religious lines. The issue with there exists a sensitivity that isn’t Pakistanis is that affairs are judged on religious breached. But Pakistan can to a and, in some cases, on sectarian lines. We limited degree talk about the shouldn’t interfere in other countries’ issues as Uyghurs’ plight. doing so can give rise to tensions between the two countries.
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DIALOGUE 8:
THE DEBATE ON FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION: WHERE DOES THE PROBLEM LIE?
Ghazi Salahuddin (Moderator) community, it is considered by the latter as an attack on religion. If the rule of law and We shouldn’t be talking about organizational process are tardy, the war class whether or not our environment is supremacy will continue and the right of freedom conducive for freedom of of expression will suffer the most in the process. expression, for everybody believes that the problem of freedom of Ghazi Salahuddin expression exists in our society. The Power has to abide by truth, but if it cannot stand main question that ought to be the latter or doesn’t listen to it, does its addressed here is that what are the constitutional value remain intact? reasons that cause this plight? Mir Hasil Khan Bizenjo Khurshid Nadeem Power marked with lawlessness doesn’t require This is actually a problem linked to any legitimacy. If the parliament’s voice can be power. The more power a person curbed, what to then speak of individual ones? has, the more they try to safeguard There should be no confusion about the fact that it and thus have quest for more. freedom of expression doesn’t exist in our society. State is dominant and wants to limit When of late the parliament was voting for or the role of individual and society. against the Army Act, an activity that was Resultantly, it dislikes freedom of broadcasted live, the parts in favour of the act expression out of the fear that its were being identified and properly shown, but role and value in society will also when those who were not in favour of the act eventually be discussed. Similarly, were being identified, news channels were on the societal level, the greater muted. The state doesn’t only use power in an power a sector has the more it tries opprobrious way but is also aloof of its to be superior to the rest of the consequences. sectors and tries not to let the issue of freedom of expression be brought Mazhar Abbas to the table. Addressing the issue of national interest is considered by the In Pakistan, more laws were made to curb state as an infringement upon its freedom of expression than for anything else. At authority. On the other hand, if a times, when these laws are proposed, even question is raised about the religious politicians and legislators are kept in dark until
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eleventh hour. During the previous has overtly asked people not to read newspapers government, such a law was being and not to watch TV. proposed without its minister for Shahzada Zulfiqar information knowing a word about it. Had that bill been passed, writing I belong to Balochistan, a province that you can books would have become tough for consider lying outside Pakistan. All that has been people. Every law passed after 1947 said here or can be said is impossible in pertaining to media and journalism Balochistan. Internal issues are growing, which, curbed their growth and put coupled with the neighbours’ undue interference limitations to it in lieu of create innumerable problems. But none of this is safeguarding their freedom. The last worthy of being discussed. As many as 24 such law was passed in 2016 titled journalists have fallen victim to target killing in PECA that was meant to ‘control’ the the province, since 2008. Despite hardships, social media bloggers. Over the past politicians do have space, albeit little, but media few years, a tradition has been set has been put behind bars. Restrictions and of lifting people without letting prohibitions on journalism are not imposed only anybody know about the abductors; by a particular institution, but political parties as nor was there a set principle about well. Also, student organisations attack media the punishment for these people. A houses when they broadcast any news that journalist was arrested because he bothers the former. was declared transgressor, for allegedly having committed Ghazi Salahuddin unconstitutional acts. A magistrate Journalism is confronted with a lot of limitations. was released despite severe charges Does it mean that media is extremely powerful? of sexual violence, but the journalist couldn’t be. Roedad Khan would say Munizae Jahangir that the policy that Media is powerful because it has access to every broadmindedness wouldn’t be person across the country and plays a role in allowed to flourish was made from perception-building. Journalists have been the get-go. PEMRA is helpless targeted in the past, and they continue to be without whose prior knowledge TV targeted more often today. At least 60 journalists channels are closed down. During are undergoing charges of terrorism. There have the past 11 years, different channels been several journalists who were charged with were issued around 650 mostly sedition upon rendering news, although this ‘funny’, in particular those issued to charge is extremely dangerous that not only entertainment channels. changes people’s lives and makes them jobless, Investigative journalism is always but also forces them to leave the country. The faced with a certain war. The PM number of news items that are curbed on a daily
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basis is not known to anybody. persists, a time will come when the parliament There doesn’t remain a single will end up advocating dictatorship. department in the country where Khurshid Nadeem there can be carried out independent reporting. Throughout The problem of freedom of expression is faced Pakistan’s history, judiciary and not only by one sector but has weakened as a army have been two main power social value. Everybody—be it a politician, a players. Given their widespread role journalist, a scholar, or an ordinary person—who and influence, how can it be possible dissents with the orthodox opinion is confronted that they aren’t discussed? When with this problem. There is always an opinion journalists leave mainstream media prevailing that the Pakistan society has entered owing to frustration and take to that stage of non-movements that Arab countries social media and YouTube, PECA had entered before the Arab Spring. Society is bothers them there too. Young gradually undergoing the process of change and journalists are told that if they want understands as to how and in what ways it can to do journalism, there are certain develop, what are the things that can be things they cannot say and can only compromised upon. advocate the narrative that has been sanctioned by the state. Journalists Mazhar Abbas now believe that they should openly Contrary to Khursheed Nadeem’s belief, I believe be told as to where do the limits of that resistance is extinct. It is put into place by freedom of expression and sedition labours, students, politicians, and journalists. The set about and where do they end so number of journalists now is more than it was in that they can decide if they actually should pursue journalism. the past, but dictators have had to bow down before their resistance. Nowadays, when talking Mir Hasil Bizenjo about politics, journalists make sure that they More democracy will make place for don’t do so at the press club, for it is there and in more freedom of expression, for newspapers’ offices that they feel the most they both go hand in hand and are insecure. Politicians’ predicament is such that it impeded from the same place. In was they who passed a law against freedom of such circumstances [rife with curbs expression titled PECA at the parliament. We can’t on freedom go expression], the name even four politicians who came out irony is that political parties and opposing it or thought as to what sort of a law intellectuals have turned a deaf ear to it. Political parties either was being passed. PECA not only creates compromise for their insignificant problems for journalists but also for political personal benefits or are scared of workers, social media activists, and common the inherent perils. There doesn’t people. All centres of resistance are silent, nor appear any hope. If the situation can there be seen any discomfort for it.
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Shahzada Zulfiqar Q/A Session
There exists no consciousness for Question resistance in political parties, nor do Freedom of expression is not suffering only by the they have in them elements that hands of a particular sector, but also by those of aren’t uncomfortable with this the channels’ owners. There are several civilian silence and dare dissent. Political mafias talking against whom is considered workers aren’t as selfless as they forbidden, and this happens under their watch were in the past to come out upon and per their policies and benefits. Furthermore, their leaders’ voice, and this the there exists exploitation in the field of journalism latter too know. The very structures but media doesn’t seem to be able to talk about of journalism and politics have it. Why? changed. Everyday talks against PECA, but no resistance has thus far Munizae Jahangir been seen. We can’t turn a blind eye to the problems that Munizae Jahangir exist within the profession of media, but improvement has of late happened. Those who I believe that the requisite spark for work in it protest on a small scale that does yield resistance is present. Every circle benefits but also bothers the owners. But the plays its part while residing within its value of protests and resistance cannot be domain. The slogans chanted in the brushed under the rug. If this continues, there recent students’ movements need to will occur drastic improvement. To think that if be paid attention to. The students of there cannot be abrupt results of protests they Gilgit Baltistan talked about Baba shouldn’t be carried through is a very negative Jan, and those of Balochistan raised way of thinking. questions pertaining to the missing persons. The youth posits their Khursheed Nadeem opinion about their backwardness and demand that democracy be The spark for resistance is very apparent in the strengthened. The major and youth. There are a lot of forums within the significant sectors of the society may country where such things are discussed, and be silent, but the youth wants to none of this will go to waste. It is now the break this silence: and this is the ray responsibility of political parties to bring them of hope that we need. under a proper structure so that they can be taken advantage of.
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DIALOGUE 9:
WOMEN’S RIGHTS MOVEMENTS: IS THERE ANY HOPE FOR AN END TO GENDER DISCRIMINATION?
Dr Fouzia Saeed (Moderator) deprived of the rights that their religion grants them as well. Right to education, health, and We should first talk about where we, justice need to be struggled for unfalteringly, and as a society, started our journey, it is necessary that women indiscriminately where have we reached and where become part of this struggle. Until women we are headed. Afterwards, we will protest, they will be treated similar to how they talk about the issue of women have been and are treated. In the modern rights, i.e. whether or not there has societies, women’s struggle for rights shouldn’t be been some improvement in women perceived in a negative way. I was part of a rights. platform organised in Beijing in 1995, and even Samia Raheel Qazi there we didn’t explicitly the 12 points proposed, for this, we believe, isn’t the solution. Some of When the issue of women rights is the West’s laws can be in contradiction with our discussed, it is important that men society and culture, but with little amendments, as well as young women of they can be made that implementable. If we talk universities are also invited. Women about the movements launched for women rights, in Pakistan have always been I believe that resistance has been by and large victimised and deprived. The most beneficial, although there is a lot to be done yet. significant of all issues here, however, is that regardless of the Dr Fouzia Saeed differences of ideologies that exist Romana Bashir, do you see any hope in the among women, they have always (near) future? Also, what are the factors based on struggled for their rights reciprocally. which it can be said that we can ensure the I belong to a religious family but I provision of women rights? have been part of every forum demanding women rights. I have Romana Basheer taken part in protest with Asma Jahangir. In Pakistan, all women are Pakistan has had a history of voices raised for being discriminated against, and so women rights, but in the recent past, there has it is important that they keep their been observed an increment in resistance. ideological differences aside and Challenges still exist, but change has become struggle for their rights. apparent. Only until recently, no legislation was Furthermore, our women are aren’t done related to women’s issues, but certain laws granted the rights that women of have been made now that strengthen our the modern states enjoy, and are struggle. Now, state can be held responsible for
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our problems and those responsible well. Quaid e Azam rendered a clear message by can be questioned. Women also making his sister part of the struggle for know as to which doors should they independence. He once went to Peshawar for a be knocking at, for the pressure that meeting where he was told not to let his sister sit can be exerted now couldn’t be with him on the stage. Quaid e Azam responded exerted in the past. Honour killing by saying that if she is told not to sit on the wasn’t considered a crime in the stage, he too won’t, for he believed everybody past, but now there exists legislation should be granted equal opportunity to play their against it that has helped in part in this struggle. In 1929, a law was proposed decrementing it to a certain degree. in Allahabad that said that a girl has to be at least In 2014, an apt step was taken by 16-year-old to be married, and although all the government of establishing Muslims objected but Jinnah didn’t, and openly commissions in all provinces for announced his support for the law which was women rights that ensure that then passed. In Pakistan, we are still fighting for discriminatory behaviour isn’t abided the rights of young girls. The rights that were by in governmental policies. granted to women after partition are ones that they won for themselves. They took to roads and To strengthen our weakening built pressure for legislations, and it is this legacy economy, the number of women in that goes forth. For now, the collective markets and offices has increased. consciousness of this patriarchal society has not There were certain departments been able to agree upon the fact that women where gender discrimination was deserve no less than men do. In 1983, a struggle extremely apparent, but women set about for granting a woman’s witness changed their fate for good. They complete value and not half of a man’s, and it still now use media ever so confidently continues. If laws are not changed, we can’t to gainsay political and economic expect the society to change. Strong sectors activities. We also see women within the country are always hell-bent upon side- leaders emerge on the horizon. It lining the women. should be understood that there is a long history of sacrifices behind this. Our biggest, most fundamental issue is that of The results are that we are repression. This is not only limited to matters contacted by religious clerics who related to women, but is part of the entire want to make the protection of environment. The fact that it bears upon women women rights part of their sermons. more than it does upon any other segment of the society is a different thing. We can’t talk about Kishwar Naheed this issue overtly. Standing extremism and Relinquishing gender discrimination discomforts is considered good and named is for now an obscure reality. We tolerance. It could also be possible that the need to be grateful about the fact reason why most matters aren’t discussed is that that the system we were granted as it is considered to be contrary to our culture. If a result of the partition gave women we don’t discuss problems, how will we be able to the right to vote otherwise we would know their perplexities and how will a relationship be needing to struggle for that as based on understanding be developed among
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different segments of the society pertaining to women despite desperately wanting holding varying opinions? Therefore, to do so. This is a limitation that bounds them. it is important that we rid our society But as far as general legislation is concerned, of repression of any kind. women’s role has been visible. The women that are part of the Dr Fozia Saeed parliament aren’t interested in supporting legislation for their Can you name some factors and indicators based gender. And since a major part of on which it can be said that space for women in them are there based not on merit Pakistan is widening? but on personal affiliations, they lack Romana Basheer the requisite capabilities. They neither want to ask women about I believe that the department of education is the their problems, and nor do they play biggest indicator to suggest that women in an active role in any legislation Pakistan are progressing. The number of girls being done in their favour. studying in Pakistan’s educational institutions is more than that of boys. A bill was proposed in the Samia Raheel Qazi parliament advocating that the percentage of girls Our system is in reality based on in institutions should be equal to boys’, and I was oppression. When lawlessness is on the one who opposed it the most, saying that the rise, the society doesn’t get the more boys should take admissions, and that if rights that it deserves. Men in more girls are qualifying, it shouldn’t be objected. thousands are presently faced with The educational standard of girls is better than the problem of joblessness and boys’. In the departments of health and justice, searching for jobs, but to no avail by they can be seen in great numbers. and large. Women are in particular Kishwar Naheed confronted with problems, but the facts that the state’s priorities don’t The successes that women can be seen achieving have space for them and that justice in Pakistan is a work of their own. I will reiterate is lacking are problematic. If this that our society hasn’t changed, and that its base gets solved, women too will not find is extremely patriarchal. It should also be seen it hard to ensure that they are that the rate of crimes perpetrated against granted their due rights. women is incrementing. The opposition’s psychology is in full swing and worries women. Somebody talked about the role of The latter are coming out, but this doesn’t mean female parliamentarians, and that they are also being able to play their part because I have been one too, I will and test their skills. They are paying a heavy dare dissent with this and say that price for this progress in the society. women’s role is extremely limited and a majority of them have to Dr Fouzia Saeed abide by their respective parties’ An air is blanketing the society that portrays that leaders. Therefore, they can’t take a women are making space for themselves. To me, single step for legislation of any kind the most pleasing indicator is that mothers want
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their daughters to live successful problems they are faced with emerge from within lives. Similarly, mothers-in-law are their homes. Girls’ leaving jobs or not receiving also supporting their daughters-in- any education is because their families impede law. They help them by attending their growth. How can this problem be solved? their kids and supporting them in education. When a crime is Kishwar Naheed perpetrated against girls, their It is true that when women are supported by mothers fight for justice in police their families, they are all the more confident and stations. Our traditional familial not worried about the problems on the outside. structure is changing for good. Therefore, it is important that steps are taken on Mothers are realising that their both the government and institutional levels to daughters’ lives can be better than help alter negative perceptions that exist within theirs. our families. Similarly, it is also important that Q/A Session crimes perpetrated against women without their homes are also curbed, for fear and harassment Question are some of the issues because of which families are reserved. Is it not that the main reason behind the problems women are faced with Question is that of cultural and out-dated traditions because our Constitution What is being done for the rights of the women of and religion don’t sanction tribal areas, for our majority is still unaware of discriminatory behaviours? their problems? Romana Basheer Dr Fouzia Saeed Out-dated traditions and cultural This is both a collective and an individual impediments pass through a process struggle. Women were stopped from casting their and strengthened by different votes in Dir, but they came out in numbers and factors. It is the responsibility of used their right to vote. Becoming part of the educational institutions to introduce collective struggle is more efficient and has students to modernity. There exists widespread consequences, and where there this gap which is why we are occurs discrimination against women and if the engulfed by out-dated traditions. latter possess understanding, they need to step to the fore and demand justice and rights. Question Competent men need to raise the issues women of their respective areas face. It is not necessary Women are suppressed the most in that a change set about from a big movement, the familial setups. Most of the for any resistance however small yields results.
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DIALOGUE 10:
DIALOGUE AMONG INSTITUTIONS: NEEDS AND POSSIBILITIES
Murtaza Solangi: structure. Pakistan has a state, meaning that it has a structure, but neither is it clear and nor Larry Diamond, a professor at people and institutions have learned to abide by Stanford University, believes that the limits set by the Constitution. Here, you will democratic values are decrementing find a state within the state, and governments throughout the world. This further within the government. Therefore, need is being implies that democracy is confronted felt to discuss this issue. with dangers not only in one particular country but across the Pakistan is an ideological state, but its religious globe. The tensions between state affairs have largely been left at the mercy of the institutions are deemed as a grave people, mainly clergy. That has also contributed, hurdle in the way of democracy’s among other factors, in the prevalence of growth within Pakistan. Little efforts militancy and terrorism. Most among the religious have been made to make them live community, at least in ideological terms, in harmony with one another. disregard the Constitution and democracy, which Chairman Senate Mian Raza Rabbani has further divided the society into segments. For of late talked to the COAS about this instance, there are people who, after giving zakat issue. But the question is when (compulsory charity), don’t give taxes, while there there is a constitution, a social are also some who give taxes but consider giving contract in written form with clearly zakat insignificant. Amidst such times, the writ of defined roles of institutions, then the state cannot be profoundly enforced. We are what necessitates further dialogue? neither a secular state nor a religious one. It was, Another question that follows suit is although, necessary that the Constitution was about the efficiency of these acted upon, albeit reluctantly. dialogues. In developed countries, there is an administrative
structure at the highest level that keeps all the Justice Ali Nawaz Chauhan institutions harmonised and intact and ensures Before the emergence of Islam, a their functioning within set parameters. In negotiating committee had been set Pakistan, we don’t have any such administrative up in Hijaz called Hilful Fuzool. It structure. The few committees and bodies that came into existence because the exist are futile and powerless. The role of the state didn’t have a proper, organised president is always that of ascertaining solidarity
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and unity, but our president does interact with institutions but with people, which is nothing. Top politicians of the why addressing the problems concerning people’s country can be heard saying that the lives is a prerequisite. The governmental policies bureaucracy doesn’t function too need to be addressed. properly. If they consider Acting upon the Constitution is obligatory upon themselves so weak, how can they everybody, but there still exist differences of rid the hostility that exists among opinion despite there being a proper explanation institutions? of the rules and procedures. Therefore, it is Until affairs are brought under an necessary to give ear to everybody if the problem administrative structure, their is to be solved, and until we do so and try to complexities will persist. Corruption understand people, differences of opinion will not has been haunting Pakistan since its take us anywhere. It should be understood that formation, but robust efforts to help those who are responsible for tending to security get rid of it are yet to be taken. affairs may hold an opinion alien to other people. Heated debates take place and noise It is, however, important that everybody’s opinion is created, but no administrative is taken into account. reforms have been introduced. It is widely believed that politicians’ biggest and Murtaza Solangi most important rival is the army, but there do exist some misconceptions regarding it. It is We hear daily that there should be a often, wrongfully, said that the army makes dialogue among institutions, decision about the foreign policy of the country. between politicians and army, All the army does is to put forth its opinion, which between judiciary and political is both its right and duty. Whenever an important forces, and between the media and issue is raised regarding foreign affairs, a letter is the government. I would like to ask sent from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to the General Amjad Shoaib why is the GHQ from where a statement is required to be need of dialogue being felt when we issued. That particular letter is then forwarded to already have a constitution in place. the concerned think-tanks in the GHQ. A note is What Pakistan should do to come written, and after the COAS signs his name to it, out of the on-going mess? it is sent to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. General Amjad Shoaib Afterwards, the army doesn’t even ask as to whether or not its recommendations are acted Dialogue isn’t a necessity only upon. among institutions, but for the entire society where exist a lot of issues Every time there arise differences of opinion, the that need to be brought to the table parliament has to have the final say. (such as bar councils, trade unions, Unfortunately, governments don’t value the teachers, and civil society’s parliament, and discussions pertaining to foreign representative institutions). We don’t policy and defence affairs don’t take place there,
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and nor do efficient discussions workers of Blackwater: this was a security issue happen on economic policies. The in which we needed to play our part. Modi came country is under immense debt, but to Pakistan during the PML-N’s government nobody within the parliament dares without undergoing the requisite procedure. ask as to why is the debt Before coming here, he had blamed Pakistan for skyrocketing and how can it be done all of Afghanistan’s issues, and so he shouldn’t away with or at lease decremented. have been allowed to land on Pakistan’s soil. Furthermore, the details of his meeting with the During the previous three then PM are also unknown. If all of these things governments, matters related to are discussed in the parliament, nobody will foreign policy were discussed only object. If there exists any difference of opinion in twice: once during the PPP’s the country’s more important issues, it shouldn’t government, when after the US be considered a curse. There are often different attack on the Salala check post a stakeholders involved and each is entitled to hold declaration based on 11 points was their own opinions. Their help or dissent shouldn’t issued following which Hillary Clinton be considered as interference. Regarding the had to apologise; and for the second national policies, the collective consciousness time during the PML-N’s should be taken into account instead of the government, when the issue of individual one. This is what is called dialogue. whether or not army personnel were to be sent to Yemen was taken up Our main problem is that of governance, and that to which the parliament didn’t agree. needs to be solved promptly. Land mafias and When decisions are taken in the extortionists have made peace a forlorn reality in parliament, the world respects them, Karachi. And in lieu of finding the main causes and no institution within the country behind the problem, security agencies were told dares dissent. I often ask the to curb crimes, which helped in achieving politicians to share with me one security, but cannot solve the issue altogether. such instance where they wanted to Dialogue isn’t done where it is needed: for take a particular decision with instance, doctors and lawyers are not conversed regards to the foreign policy of the with. Therefore, it is necessary that we country but were stopped by the unbiasedly try to find out as to what are our main army. We shouldn’t put our failures issues and who is responsible for them. in somebody else’s basket. If the Dr Khalid Masud parliament is truly made supreme, nobody can put impediments in its General Shoaib talked in detail about why do we way. need to have dialogue. The question is about its absence. The main problem is that in the modern The politicians, not by the army, states, the issue of peace is based on warlike took the Memogate issue to the concepts, more so since the present states came court. During the PPP’s tenure, an into existence is an air of war. The peace ambassador would issue visas to the
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institutions established in at some point in the future. universities follow suit. This is a Whom in institutions should we have dialogue fundamental problem that we need with? I want to make it clear that dialogue is to come out of so that policies aren’t needed with a few of the army’s generals whose framed around conflicts but based framework I will also posit. The first step should wholly upon the concepts of peace, be that of coming out of this decade’s biggest lie: accepting the latter as a perpetual that ‘we are on the same page’. reality. This also implies that a paradigm shift has become General Shoaib said that problems should be inevitable. One issue that Pakistan addressed in the parliament. It is true that has is that of governance, and we parliamentarians have in them a lot of flaws, but need to understand that neither even when they use their right to ask the army does it require an ideology, nor do questions, the latter doesn’t respond. Does the there exist any differences of parliament not have the right to ask that since it opinion. brought the National Command Authority into place, the points made under it ought to be put Farhatullah Babar forth before it? Why is the parliament not being The definition of the Pakistani state granted these rules for the past 4 years? The has been put forth and explanation Supreme Court said that the laws of the National regarding its institutions and their Command Authority aren’t to be kept secretive. I scope is also there, but, dread that it could be that under these rules, an unfortunately, we don’t have a individual’s finger will be set on the button that single state here. One exists only on makes war inevitable. General Shoaib also said paper, while the other in reality. The that nobody knows anything about the latter is the one that is armed and conversation between Narendra Modi and Nawaz dominant upon the one that’s there Sharif. The country’s PM isn’t trusted. The on paper. There is a need for judiciary made a decision in the Memogate case. dialogue between the two. But how The army should clearly say that the decision is will this happen? The one with arms not acceptable to them. bans TV channels for an unspecified Dialogue is needed, and it has been for a long amount of time, makes some time. It’s been 72 years, and we’ve been pained a newspapers unavailable in some lot. The truth should now be faced. It was said areas: PEMRA and the Ministry of the COAS is the country’s backbone. I don’t want Information don’t know a word to comment upon whether it is so or not, but I about all of it. The scenario of the will say that the backbone of the country has country is such that although there been broken. Therefore, I suggest that a can be seen a civilian set-up in the commission be established where basic questions driver’s seat, the car is actually been can be raised and to which everybody should be driven by somebody else. This car is answerable. The reason behind the prevalence of doomed to meet a horrific accident
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terrorism and those who framed its when has it been allowed to function. Had it been framework should be unearthed. functional, we wouldn’t be talking about the need What happened in Kargil is yet to be for dialogue today. known. Why are the tribal areas still If we don’t bother facing the reality today, the not open for common visitors future will be replete with despair and dread. We despite their being merged into the admit that politicians have not played their part KP? How will the parliament be honestly, and that the parliament has not been strengthened when the person who used properly, but we shouldn’t turn a blind eye asks how was the army chief allotted to the other side of the picture in saying so. If the 90 acres’ land is warned and blamed PM of the nation is doubted and a sort of via a tweet for bringing about incertitude is built against the parliament, then tensions between institutions? Is who is to be trusted and how are we to progress? dialogue possible amidst such an environment? The situation has now become such that the governmental institutions are not in harmony with Barrister Javed Abbasi one another; the issue of the state institutions is The issue of governance was bigger. Those responsible interact neither within discussed in detail here. Tensions the parliament nor outside it. There exists a lot of and unsmooth relations among unpleasantness within the executive branch of the institutions should be discussed as government. If situation became so grave, how this is the country’s most daunting will dialogues become a possible reality? Solution issue. Mian Raza Rabbani, ex- to all these problems exists in the Constitution. chairman senate, and a Supreme Articles 41, 50, 95, and 175 ought to be Court judge have expressed the fact implemented: these were added to the that institutions are distancing from Constitution after thorough contemplation. each other and that they need to I also believe that our political parties have failed engage in dialogue with each other. to give parliament the value that it deserves by The need for dialogue is immense, not addressing key issues there. It is a but there seems no possibility of it. prerequisite that political parties revisit and We have, unfortunately, not been reappraise their behaviours. Dialogue should kick- able to relinquish the habit of start from this forum. It should be decided that blaming one another. There does both governmental and state institutions should exist a Constitution, but it is not act upon the Constitution and grant it the being valued. The Constitution supreme value that it merits. established three institutions of the state, but the reality is that both the Saleem Safi judiciary and the army have weakened the parliament. It is often It was rightly said that there is a need for said that the parliament is not dialogue in the country. Situation has become so playing its role, to which I ask as to tense that if this step is not taken, then God
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forbid we may start indulging in doesn’t only mean that no coups are imposed. internal conflicts. Constitution and Are our political parties as democratic as those in social contract are two such a democracy ought to be? Every institution that documents upon which everybody has some power under its belt misuses it to the can agree. If this way is not extreme. When the judiciary was strengthened, adopted, then those carrying power the then chief justice made himself famous, but will become dominant over the rest. did nothing to reform the country’s judicial The prevalence of democracy system and processes.
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