Vol. 801 Tuesday No. 25 11 February 2020

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions Housing: New Homes...... 2143 Housing: Social Homes for Rent...... 2146 Victorian Mills...... 2148 Hate Crime: Anti-Semitism ...... 2150 Transport Infrastructure Statement...... 2152 Fisheries Bill [HL] Second Reading...... 2167 Wuhan Coronavirus Statement...... 2225 Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Bill [HL] (Law Commission Bill) Second Reading...... 2234

Grand Committee Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (Commencement No. 14) Order 2019 ...... GC 1 Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2020 ...... GC 9 Public Bodies (Abolition of Public Works Loan Commissioners) Order 2019 ...... GC 17 Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 2020....GC 22 Northamptonshire (Structural Changes) Order 2019...... GC 28 Considered in Grand Committee Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2020-02-11

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2020, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 2143 Oaths and Affirmations [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Housing: New Homes 2144

House of Lords Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my registered Tuesday 11 February 2020 interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. What are the Government going to do 2.30 pm about the crisis of planning permissions being granted but not a brick being laid? At the last check, there were well over 250,000 applications with nothing Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Portsmouth. happening on those sites. If you have land and have received planning permission to build homes, but you Oaths and Affirmations do not take action, surely the Government should do something. If nothing has happened in 12 months, surely the Government should find somebody to build 2.35 pm houses on these big sites.

Baroness Mobarik took the oath, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. Baroness Berridge: The noble Lord is correct that, once planning permission is granted—which can take about two years—it is in everyone’s interests, including Housing: New Homes the developer and the local community, that the site is built on. Last year, we saw more than 375,000 grants Question of planning permission. The noble Lord is aware that in 2018 Sir Oliver Letwin was asked to review whether 2.37 pm there was a hold-up of what is called the build-out Asked by Baroness Neville-Rolfe rate. His main conclusion was about the absorption rate of bringing large numbers of units into the local Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment how they intend market. He recommended that we diversify the type of to further their aims of (1) building 300,000 new units on each site, so they can be put on the market in homes each year for the next five years, and (2) making smaller groups, appeal more widely and not affect the the planning system simpler. market price.

Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, we have delivered Lord Krebs (CB): My Lords, the Minister will be more than 1.5 million new homes since 2010, with last aware that many new houses are being built in flood-risk year seeing over 241,000 net additions—the highest areas. Between 2001 and 2014, 250,000 new homes level delivered for over 30 years—but there is much more were built in such areas and currently the number to do. We will review everything from planning reforms being built in them is increasing year on year. Many of to housing zones, backed with more than £44 billion these houses are being built against Environment Agency of support, over five years. To make the planning advice. Although some are protected by hard flood process simpler, we will publish a planning White Paper defences, does the noble Baroness agree that two measures in due course. These actions, taken together, will see us should be crucial to all new building developments; deliver 300,000 homes yearly by the mid-2020s. namely, the installation of sustainable urban drainage systems and, secondly, the removal of the automatic right to connect to often overloaded Victorian drains? Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con): My noble friend’s Answer confirms that increasing the availability of housing is a complicated matter with many facets, two Baroness Berridge: The noble Lord is correct to of which I probed. It is vital to look forward, to have a raise this issue, given the effects of the recent storm. clear strategy and to deliver on it, and not to twist and Many communities are today living with the effects of turn. Does the Minister agree that policy on building flooding in their properties. However, it would be and planning needs to go with the grain of economics unrealistic to ban all development in flood-risk areas and take proper account of incentives to the private because around 10% of England and parts of London sector, including to smaller builders? Does she also are viewed as being at high risk. These decisions need agree that one important factor on which UK to be taken locally and carefully, and the Environment Governments will be judged is their success in meeting Agency is one of the statutory bodies that needs to be voters’ aspirations to own their own home? consulted on planning.

Baroness Berridge: My noble friend is correct that Baroness Thornhill (LD): My Lords, one of the economics and the prompting that the Government tools the Government are using is the housing delivery can give this sector are important. That is why local test. I believe it is designed to put even more pressure authorities must now have a five-year land supply as on councils to deliver even more development and I part of their reporting requirements. Within that, they can see where the Government are coming from. However, have to identify small and medium-sized sites, because the regime is forcing councils in already built up and we have recently seen a decline in the number of small congested urban areas to accept applications for large and medium-sized enterprises. We need to encourage tower blocks ranging from 20 storeys to, in Croydon those businesses and make funding available to them, for example, 65 storeys in height. Do the Government because they are so important, particularly in training accept that these developments are very unpopular the next generation of the workforce and apprenticeships. with the public and do they recognise that these concerns 2145 Housing: New Homes [LORDS] Housing: Social Homes for Rent 2146

[BARONESS THORNHILL] Housing: Social Homes for Rent are justified? Such buildings will impact on the townscape Question and the built environment, and certainly on quality of life. The jury is still out on the quality of family life on the 61st floor of a major tower block. 2.46 pm Asked by Lord Shipley Baroness Berridge: The noble Baroness raises an To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans important issue that will be part of the planning they have to increase the number of social homes White Paper: how do we involve communities in the for rent. planning process and is guidance to consult before a planning application sufficient, or should there be Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I beg leave to ask the consultation before that? The housing delivery test Question standing in my name on the Order Paper mentioned by the noble Baroness is one of the tools and remind the House of my registered interest with the Government are using to hold local authorities to the Local Government Association. account for the part they play in delivering the number of houses needed in their local communities—and they are best placed to know that. The good news is Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, this Government’s that in 2018, two-thirds of local authorities had indeed priority is to boost the housing supply. We remain delivered to the correct threshold under the housing committed to increasing social housing, with £9 billion delivery test, but we have promised to review it after in the affordable housing programme delivering around 18 months, which I believe will be in August of this year. 250,000 new affordable homes, including homes for social rent. We have fully supported local authorities to build by removing the HRA borrowing caps and Lord Baker of Dorking (Con): My Lords, does my setting a long-term rent deal, and are committed to noble friend recall that the last time a Conservative renewing the affordable homes programme. Government built 300,000 houses a year was under Harold Macmillan, when Ernie Marples built them Lord Shipley: My Lords, I thank the Minister for for him? He found that private housebuilders were not her reply,but I point out that social rented housebuilding capable of building at that rate because they had to has decreased over the last year, and only 6,287 new depend on investment by local authorities and housing social rented homes were delivered in England in associations. Would she welcome that in this target? 2018-19. Despite increases in housebuilding overall, social rent made up only 2.5% of all homes delivered Baroness Berridge: My noble friend is correct about in England in 2018-19. Of the affordable homes delivered, the rate of housebuilding, but given that we completed to which the Minister refers, only 11% were for social 241,000 builds last year, there is evidence that such a rent, while 51% were for affordable rent and 37% for figure can be delivered. Housing associations, councils intermediate tenures, including shared ownership. and small and medium-sized enterprises, as well as Do the Government accept that the housing crisis will self-build and custom-build, all need to be part of this, never be solved unless more homes for social rent with a particular emphasis on small and medium-sized are built? sites. Some 10% of the land in a plan must be of less than a hectare in size, so we need to use all those Baroness Berridge: The Government accept that means to deliver the 300,000 homes a year that this councils and housing associations need to play their country needs, because 90% of young people want to part in building the number of homes we have outlined— own their own home. there are 4.14 million homes in this country that are housing association or local council owned—and that Lord Cunningham of Felling (Lab): My Lords, seven is why the Government have reintroduced the grant years ago the Government made a commitment, setting for affordable homes, with a minimum of 12,500 social a target to build 160,000 public sector houses by 2020. rent homes within the affordable homes programme. That target has not been met. Given that the Government That is in addition to local authorities now having the are, among other things, encouraging public sector borrowing cap removed, so that they can build more, bodies—hospitals, schools and local authorities—to particularly on those small and medium-sized sites surrender what is termed “surplus land”for housebuilding, that I have outlined. why have they made such a mess of reaching that target? Baroness Greengross (CB): My Lords, the number of people aged over 65 in the UK—many of whom Baroness Berridge: My Lords, there is now a longer need and deserve social housing—will rise by over 40%, timeframe for the target of 160,000 homes to be to more than 16 million, in the next 17 years. The delivered from public sector land use, but 51,000 homes number who have four or more diseases is expected to have been delivered under that. It has not been for lack double by 2035. The fact that two-thirds are unable of effort by government departments. There have been to invite a wheelchair user into their home is absolutely complications in releasing some of the land, and some appalling. The government consultation on mandating of the land has been repurposed by departments. For accessible and adaptable housing was promised in instance, the Department for Education has used some the autumn, but we are still waiting for it. Will the land for schools that is then not available for housing. Minister confirm when that consultation will start? It will take longer, but the Government take seriously We have now been waiting for eight months since the their responsibility to meet that target. initial announcement. 2147 Housing: Social Homes for Rent [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Victorian Mills 2148

Baroness Berridge: I am grateful to the noble Baroness Victorian Mills for her question. A specific question I asked of officials Question was about accessibility for older people and disabled people. However, I may disappoint her by saying that 2.53 pm all I can tell her is that we will consult shortly on raising the minimum standards for accessible housing Asked by Baroness Pinnock in all new homes. The revised National Planning Policy Framework in July 2018 strengthened policy in this To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans area. It is the responsibility of local authorities, which they have to bring back into use empty Victorian know the demographics of their area, to include in mills in the Pennine area of the North of England. local plans the amount of housing that they need for older people and adults with learning disabilities. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, many (Con): My Lords, England’s mills are the engines of of the social homes for rent referred to by the the original northern powerhouse. With 2 million square noble Lord, Lord Shipley, are built under Section 106 metresof unusedfloorspace,thereisenormousopportunity agreements by developers with local authorities. My to repurpose these historic buildings for residential, noble friend will know that, once development has commercial and community use. We will capitalise on started, quite often the developers, using a so-called this, combining Historic England’s expertise with the viability assessment, then wriggle out of the commitment Government’s£4.5 billion home building fund. Forty-five to build social homes. Is my noble friend aware of this places identified as eligible to apply for the Government’s loophole? What action are the Government taking £3.6 billion towns fund are also located within the to close it? northern powerhouse, providing further opportunity to level up through returning the north’s industrial heritage to viable productive use. Baroness Berridge: Noble Lords have previously raised this issue in debates on this topic. Social housing in this country comes from the budget in the Baroness Pinnock (LD): I thank the Minister for affordable housing programme and the borrowing that her reply and for the meeting we had last week to local councils can now do, and, yes, under Section 106 discuss this. Historic England reports that there are agreements. There has been a problem with developers more than 500 former textile mills in the Pennines then saying that they are not economically viable. In region that are disused and falling into disrepair. the plans I have mentioned, there are now requirements These are iconic buildings,and manyare listed. Conversion that landowners and site purchasers will know the will bring many benefits; for example, an estimated likely costs up front, so they will know the types of 120,000 apartments could be put into these mill buildings. affordable housing provision they have to provide and This would, at the same time, preserve a source of the levels of it. They will know that up front, before civic pride. Will the Government commit to housing they buy the land, so they cannot then come back to funding to kick-start their regeneration? the council and say, “Oh, we purchased the land for a different sum of money, and it is now no longer Baroness Barran: I thank the noble Baroness for her economically viable”. I hope that that will close Question. She is right to highlight the potential of the loophole. these buildings and the important place that they hold within their communities. I have already touched on Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl): My Lords, I note with some of the big funding streams that will be going into some caution the noble Baroness’s confidence about this area; we hope that the combination of skills that private sector housing. From my knowledge of places organisations such as Historic England bring, in such as Tower Hamlets, I know that huge development partnership with local authorities and those major has not necessarily yielded a social rent market in any funding streams, will result in a number of these meaningful way. What are the Government doing to buildings being redeveloped. ensure that her department is working with the housing associations, which have a long, honourable history of The Lord Bishop of Leeds: My Lords, there are creating quality housing for social rent purposes? I some wonderful examples of how old mills being declare my interest as on the register. rejuvenated and given new life, such as Salts Mill in Saltaire and Manningham Mills, although there is a Baroness Berridge: Both councils and housing vast amount of empty space there. If they were icons associations can bid to the affordable homes programme of the old northern powerhouse, they are now becoming for that money. Housing associations now have the icons of dereliction. Does the Minister agree that if benefit of a 10-year secure, £2 billion-worth of funding; nothing is going to happen, then it would be better to they have never had that, under any Government. knock them down? I do not favour that, but there They should be able to plan to deliver the homes that needs to be a strategy that allows these wonderful we need. We recognise that, particularly for those at buildings to be brought back into life, to be given a risk of being homeless and for particular families, we sort of resurrection. need to increase the number of homes available for social rent. We want to see a new generation of council Baroness Barran: The right reverend Prelate is right: housing, built both by housing associations and by the pattern of development and disrepair is very uneven. local councils. It often reflects the strength of the local economy, 2149 Victorian Mills [LORDS] Hate Crime: Anti-Semitism 2150

[BARONESS BARRAN] apartments, work spaces and canal-side moorings, which in some areas permits commercial redevelopment with much more to come. Will the Minister take back and in others makes it much more challenging. With the lessons from Brierfield Mill that the way to carry our arm’s-length bodies, we are exploring how to out successful projects of this kind is for them to be address the areas that the right reverend Prelate is promoted and carried out by the local authority,working concerned about. together with local businesses and local people, and for the Government to provide the necessary funding Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab): My Lords, these for it to happen, but then to strictly avoid the time-wasting are such interesting questions, and there is such a and energy-sapping temptation to micromanage the diversity of interests around the House. I once taught project from Whitehall or even from the LEP? Anglo-Saxon literature. “Beowulf” is full of allusions to decrepit buildings left behind by the Romans. This Baroness Barran: The Government are keen on seems as endemic a feature of the British landscape as devolving power to the regions and this type of partnership its history. There are five hundred and something of and community engagement is exactly what we are these mills still standing, asking for something to aspiring to. happen to them. The tourist industry comes to mind—our industrial heritage is an important part of our history that it could well incorporate—but could priority be Hate Crime: Anti-Semitism given to those mills that stand in places which do not, Question at the moment, attract that many visitors, to give them a focal point that could create a little bit of energy 3.01pm from the touristic side and in terms of our heritage? Asked by The Lord Bishop of St Albans

Baroness Barran: There is a lot of energy going into To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps these issues. The noble Lord is right that tourism is an they have taken to address antisemitic hate crime. important beneficiary of these mills’ regeneration. As he will know, the Government have just developed a Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, the Government new tourism deal. All these issues will be considered as are committed to combating all forms of antisemitism. part of it. Our cross-party working group ensures that we are alive to Jewish community concerns and can respond Baroness Eaton (Con): My Lords, I have spent a effectively, alongside the advice of the noble Lord, great deal of my life living in an area of textile mills. Lord Mann, as our independent adviser. We have Can the Minister suggest how we overcome the challenges spent nearly £860,000 this year on projects tackling presented by the original use of these buildings; for religiously and racially motivated hatred, including example, where oil from the woollen industry has almost £150,000 to tackle anti-Semitism online. impregnated the floors and the fabric of them? The Lord Bishop of St Albans: I thank the noble Baroness Barran: My noble friend raises a point Baroness for her Answer. According to the Community about how previous usage impacts on the ability to Security Trust, the number of anti-Semitic instances regenerate. This is true across a range of historic and has risen for each of the past four years. It is a growing industrial heritage buildings, not just mills. Again, problem. We in the churches have been exploring with Historic England can provide a lot of expertise in this Jewish groups any role that we may have played in the area, but I am aware that this is a matter of concern. past with any stereotyping. Recently, the entire College Sadly, as a result of arson, in the last decade there have of Bishops of the Church of England signed up to the been more than 100 fires in the Bradford mills close to IHRA definition of anti-Semitism. Education will be my noble friend’s home, but we are working with the key. I am grateful for what the noble Baroness has fire and rescue services to address this. said, but can she tell us not only about the funds but which projects and resources Her Majesty’s Government are making available so that we can address, through The Earl of Clancarty (CB): My Lords, will the education, the stereotyping and the troping of Jewish Government replace the money we have received up to people to address this scourge. now from the EU for heritage projects, without which mill conversions will be significantly more difficult? Baroness Berridge: I am pleased to note that the right reverend Prelate said that the bishops have adopted Baroness Barran: The details on that are not yet the definition. In 2016, this Government were the first fully worked out but the noble Earl will be aware of to do so. The Department for Education specifically the shared prosperity fund which is looking to address teaches on the Holocaust in schools through programmes a number of areas of previous EU funding. such as lessons on Auschwitz and the work of the UCL Centre for Holocaust Education. It is the only Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, Brierfield Mill, a compulsory named topic in the history curriculum. large grade 2 listed building in east Lancashire, now We agree that the effective teaching of pupils can help known as Northlight, is being redeveloped as a joint them understand the possible consequences of anti- venture between Pendle Borough Council—I declare Semitism. I am sure that the right reverend Prelate is my interest—and a local development company, with taking his experience back to the many schools that a £32 million project of investment in leisure, arts, the Church of England runs in our country. 2151 Hate Crime: Anti-Semitism [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Transport Infrastructure 2152

Lord Mann (Non-Afl): I refer to my declaration in code of conduct in this House? If anyone falls short of the register of interests. As well as the bishops, six their commitments, swift action can be taken by the football clubs—Chelsea, West Ham United, Newcastle relevant authorities, up to and including expulsion United,Bournemouth,BrightonandCrystalPalace—have from the relevant House, Parliament, Assembly or all adopted the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism. local authority. Does the Minister agree that if it is good enough for the Church and football clubs, then it should be good Baroness Berridge: I thank the noble Lord for his enough for employers, trade unions, universities and suggestions. In relation to the Cabinet Office, I am other institutions of civil society? sure that officials are listening to today’s debate and will act upon it. The code of conduct is for the Baroness Berridge: I agree with the noble Lord. He authorities here, but the noble Lord will be aware that will be aware that the relevant Ministers have written the APPG has been asking all MPs to sign the declaration; to local authorities and universities asking them to 641 out of 643 have signed the definition. Unfortunately, adopt this definition. Noble Lords will be aware that I two sitting MPs and seven Sinn Féin MPs—who do answered this question on behalf of the Department not take up their places—have not signed. for Education not many months ago. The rate of take-up is not what the Government want. There is Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, we have now a proposal that information about those universities just marked the 75th anniversary of the liberation of and local authorities which have not signed up to the Auschwitz, but this shocking report referred to by the definition will in some form be made public. right reverend Prelate shows that levels of anti-Semitism have never been higher. I fear that we have not learned Lord Pickles (Con): My Lords, I draw noble Lords’ the lessons of the past. What will the Government do attention to my declaration of interests and associate right now to stem this tide of what the Home Secretary myself with the question asked by the noble Lord, herself has called Lord Mann. Given that anti-Semitism is often an “this shameful stain on our society”? open gateway to violent extremism, does the Minister think that now is an appropriate time for the Government Baroness Berridge: My Lords, I have outlined some to incorporate anti-Semitism into their Prevent strategy? of the actions that the Government are taking. However, it is for all of society to take responsibility: families, Baroness Berridge: My Lords, I am unfortunately communities and faith groups. Yes, the Community not aware of whether that has been proposed although, Security Trust figures are the highest on record; they as noble Lords will know, we have recently reviewed match the Home Office figures, which show that a the Prevent strategy. I will take my noble friend’s greater proportion of religiously motivated hate crime suggestion back, write to him and put the letter in the is against the Jewish community. The Government Library. have now announced funding of half a million pounds to take 200 university students to Auschwitz so that Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB): My Lords, anti- they can then go back to their campus and educate Semitism is evil and should be combated in every others. possible way, but will the Minister make it clear that the Government are equally committed to tackling Transport Infrastructure hate crimes against all communities, even those of non-Abrahamic faiths? Statement 3.08 pm Baroness Berridge: My Lords, the Government abhor all hate crimes committed on the basis of religion or of TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department lack of religious belief. In relation to the legislative for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con): My framework in this area, I am pleased to tell the House Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a that, due to the of prevalence of these offences online, Statement made in the other place by my right honourable the LawCommission is currently looking at the Malicious friend the Prime Minister. The Statement is as follows: Communications Act and will shortly be announcing “With permission, Mr Speaker, there are all sorts of a consultation on hate crime legislation to see whether reasons why the city in which we now sit is the most it sufficiently covers all religious groups. There are productive region in the whole of Europe—the time peculiarities in relation to the legislation when a religious zone, the language, the agglomeration of talents and, group is also a racial group. above all, the mass transit system that every day conveys millions of people efficiently and affordably, Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, with tubes and 8,600 buses, into the central activities I agree with others in this House that anti-Semitism is zone in the morning and out in the evening, like the an evil prejudice and that we must do everything to respiration of some vast undersea coelenterate. drive it out. Will the Minister agree to speak to the As that public transport network has expanded in Cabinet Office Minister Chloe Smith to look at the the last 150 years it has brought hope and opportunity possibility of changing the nomination process for all and job prospects to people growing up in every part public elections, to require candidates to confirm their of this city and beyond, and it is the ambition of this opposition to anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and all Government to employ that same utensil—fantastic other race and hate crimes, as well as changing our transport infrastructure—to unite and level up across 2153 Transport Infrastructure [LORDS] Transport Infrastructure 2154

[BARONESS VERE OF NORBITON] above all, we can improve the quality of life and the country. Of course there is far more to do in improve productivity, and make places more attractive London—frankly, the present mayor needs to be shaken to live in and to invest in. But we cannot make these from his complacency—but there is even more to do improvements in isolation from one another, because across the nation as a whole. Whether you are stuck in we will only be doing half the job. We will not fix the a jam on the A303 or on the outskirts of Lincoln, great musculoskeletal problem of UK transport. whether you are trying to get from Warrington to Yes, we must fix the joint between the knee bone Manchester or toiling across the Pennines by rail, you and the thigh bone—and the shin bone and the ankle know that this country is being held back by our bone. And yes, we must fix the arthritis in the fingers inadequate infrastructure. and the toes. But we also have to fix the spine. Our So in the next few weeks this Government will be generation faces a historic choice: we can try to get by setting out more details of a transport revolution, with the existing routes from north to south and because we all know the potential of transport to consign the next generation to overcrowding and standing change your life and the life of your town or city, up in the carriages, or we can have the guts to take a and we know that efficient transport can clean the air decision, no matter how difficult and controversial, and cut pollution and get cars off the road. We can that will deliver prosperity to every part of the country. simultaneously reach our ambition of net zero by This will take 50 minutes off the time to Glasgow. 2050, shorten your commute and give you more time When it comes to advocating HS2, it must be said with your family,increase productivity and bring business that the task is not made easier by HS2 Ltd, the and investment to left-behind communities. That is companyconcerned. Speaking as a Member of Parliament why we are embarking on a massive programme of whose constituency is on the route, I cannot say that investment in local transport, starting with a record- HS2 Ltd has distinguished itself in its handling of breaking £5 billion of new investment in buses and local communities and, as everyone knows, the cost bicycles. forecasts have exploded. However,the poor management That investment will mean bus passengers across to date has not detracted from the fundamental value the country seeing a dramatic improvement in their of the project. daily journeys, with more than 4,000 brand-new buses— The review recently conducted by Douglas Oakervee, zero-carbon British-built buses—on the roads of places copies of which will be placed in the Library of the like Ashfield, Barnstaple, Southampton, Manchester House, leaves no doubt of the clinching case for and many more towns and cities besides. There will be high-speed rail. A vast increase in capacity,with hundreds more services, especially in the evenings and weekends, of thousands of extra seats, making it so much easier simpler, cheaper and more convenient ticketing, and for travellers to move up down our long, narrow properly designed priority schemes to speed passengers country,means not just more capacity but extraordinarily past the traffic jams. It is an investment that will also faster journey times. Passengers arriving at Birmingham mean cyclists enjoying hundreds of miles of brand-new Airport will be able to get to central London by train separated lanes, with ‘mini-Hollands’ blooming like so in 38 minutes, which compares favourably with the many tulips in towns and cities right across the country. time that it takes to get from Heathrow by taxi, a point That £5 billion is just the start. My very good friend that I just draw to the attention of the House. But this the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be making a full is not just about getting from London to Birmingham announcement on this in next month’s Budget, and I and back considerably faster than the Piccadilly line. have no desire to steal his thunder, but I can signal It is about finally making a rapid connection from the today that we are taking forward transformative West Midlands to the northern powerhouse to Liverpool, investments: road improvements from Cornwall to the Manchester and Leeds while simultaneously permitting A1 north of Newcastle; from south Salisbury to south us to go forward with Northern Powerhouse Rail Ribble; from Cheadle to Chiverton; dual carriageways, across the Pennines, finally giving the home of the roundabouts, bypasses, underpasses—and those are railways the fast connections that it needs—and none just the roads. of this makes any sense without HS2. We have already set out plans to explore new The Infrastructure and Projects Authority considers investments in the rail network across the north— that this first phase can be delivered for its current developing proposals to reopen the Fleetwood line in projected cost of £35 billion to £45 billion in today’s Lancashire and the Ashington-Blyth rail line in the prices. The designs have been improved immeasurably north-east, improving track and platform capacity at thanks to the tireless contributions of campaigners, Middlesbrough station, and installing new signalling including the right honourable Member for Chesham at Harrogate, one of North Yorkshire’s busiest stations. and Amersham, who I do not think is in her place. If Further south, I can today announce that we will be we start now, services could be running by the end of upgrading the Bristol East junction—a major pinch the decade. point in the rail network of the south-west that limits So today the Cabinet has given high-speed rail the access to the Brunel-designed Victorian splendour of green signal. We are going to get this done and, to Bristol Temple Meads station. ensure that we do so without further blowouts on This transport revolution is local, because it must either cost or schedule, we are today taking decisive be local. We can unite and level up across the country, action to restore discipline to the programme. I will be with fantastic local improvements—better rail and less appointing a Minister whose full-time job will be to congested roads, beautiful British-made buses that are oversee the project. A new ministerial oversight group cleaner, greener, quieter, safer and more frequent, and will be tasked with taking strategic decisions about it. 2155 Transport Infrastructure [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Transport Infrastructure 2156

There will be changes to the way that HS2 Ltd is congestion that causes so much pollution; and where a managed. In line with Mr Oakervee’s recommendations, new generation of cyclists pedal safely and happily to we will be interrogating the current costs to identify school and work in tree-dappled sunlight— where savings can be made on phase 1 without the costs and delays associated with a detailed redesign. Noble Lords: Oh! So that the company can focus solely on getting phases 1 and 2a built on something approaching time and Baroness Vere of Norbiton: —in tree-dappled sunlight budget, I will be creating new delivery vehicles for on their own network of fully segregated cycle lanes, both the grossly behind-schedule Euston terminus and as we did in London. phase 2b of the wider project. This Government will deliver a new anatomy of British transport—a revolution in this nation’s public However, before those designs are finalised and transport provision and a sign to the world that, in the legislation introduced, we will also present an integrated 21st century, this United Kingdom still has the vision plan for rail in the north. Informed by an assessment to dream big dreams and the courage to bring those from the National Infrastructure Commission, it will, dreams about. I commend this Statement to the House.” in line with the findings of the Oakervee review, look [Applause.] at how we can best design and integrate rail investments across the north, including Northern Powerhouse Rail 3.22 pm between Leeds and Manchester. I have just spoken to Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, that has rather the Mayor of Greater Manchester, who has warmly spoilt my opening lines. I was of course going to thank welcomed this project, which I committed to supporting, the Minister for repeating the Statement, and also to I seem to remember, during my first days in office. suggest that if it were not for the conventions of the I want the plan to identify the most effective design House I could congratulate her, knowing that there and sequencing of all relevant investments in the would be a natural instinct to follow that with a round north. For example, with many in the north crying out of applause. The trouble is, there was actually a round for better east-west links instead of improved north-south of applause. I am afraid that my response will be ones, which we have heard many times in this House, nothing like as entertaining. some have suggested delaying or even cancelling HS2 in order to get Northern Powerhouse Rail done more Noble Lords: Oh. quickly. I want to say to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House that this is not an either/or proposition. Both Lord Tunnicliffe: No, it is an impossible bar. Perhaps are needed, and both will be built as quickly and the noble Baroness would consider writing for the cost-effectively as possible. To ensure that this happens, Spectator. we will—working closely with northern leaders—explore I welcome the Statement—not for what it says, options for creating a new delivery vehicle for Northern which I will go through with some care—but for what Powerhouse Rail. We will also start treating HS2 it does not say, because the essence of this Statement is north of Birmingham, Northern Powerhouse Rail and that it does not say “HS2 is cancelled”. That is, frankly, other local rail improvements as part of one integrated the only substantial point it makes. I want to make it masterplan: high-speed north. very clear—to avoid all doubt—that Labour supports HS2, Labour supports northern rail and Labour supports Something has to change. Those who deny this, the whole concept of a fully integrated, nationally who say that we should simply build 2b and Northern owned railway system owned by the public and operated Powerhouse Rail according to the plans currently on for the whole nation. the table, are effectively condemning the north to get I will try to point out where the hard commitments nothing for 20 years. That would be intolerable. As we are in this Statement—so it will not be a very long draw up this plan, therefore, we are not asking whether speech. I was involved in the improvements at London it is phase 2b or not 2b— Transport and subsequently TfL, from the King’s Cross tragedy in 1987 until today. I am very proud of Noble Lords: Oh! my involvement in that and of the people who worked with me. I did not expect to be praised by the Prime Baroness Vere of Norbiton: That is not the question. Minister in a Statement about northern rail, but I The question is how we can bring a transport revolution thank him very much. As one who has spent most to the north sooner. Together, this revolution in both waking moments over the past 12 years trying to screw local and national transport has the potential to be more money out of the Government, I am very pleased truly transformative for the entire country. Yes, it is that the Prime Minister has not forgotten his London ambitious—but ambition is what we have lacked for roots and ends up saying not only how wonderful the too long. Two centuries ago, our ancestors could have mass transit system is but that there is more to do in been content with breeding faster horses. Instead, they London. Can I take that as a commitment for more invented the railways. They created the transport network money and, if so, how much and when? I find no other on which the United Kingdom rose to economic pre- possible interpretation given the general speech. eminence. They looked to the future of transport and The next commitment is, like most of the commitments made it happen, and today it is our duty today to do in the Statement, pretty fluffy. The Prime Minister the same. Let us bring about a future where high-speed goes on to say that we are trains glide between our great cities; where electric “being held back by our inadequate infrastructure and so in the buses convey us cleanly around our towns; where next few weeks this government will be setting out more details of self-driving cars roam along roads that are free of the a transport revolution” 2157 Transport Infrastructure [LORDS] Transport Infrastructure 2158

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] That might reasonably be interpreted as a commitment When is the “next few weeks”? I thought about that to deliver the first phase, for between £35 billion and phrase. A few weeks is sooner than a few months and £45 billion, by 2030. Will the Minister please confirm more than a few days. Could we settle, say, on the end that that is a hard commitment? of March? Can the Minister give us a commitment on Further on, on page 12, we now know what the when this will happen? We know in this House that decisive action is going to be to bring this project to Ministers sometimes slip from commitments unless boot: we are going to appoint a Minister. Let us hope they are very clear, so I hope that she will be able to that he or she is a near relative of the Almighty. There give us a date. will be a The first spending commitment is the record-breaking “Ministerial oversight group … tasked with taking strategic £5 billion of new investment in buses and bicycles. decisions”. Can the Minister indicate a timeframe for that? It At least we will know who to blame if it all goes could be anything from a year to 50 years; it has to be wrong. set against the fact that, since 2010, the Government have inflicted cuts of £645 million a year in real terms The Statement goes on to say: on bus services, with 3,300 routes cut or withdrawn “There will be changes in the way HS2 Ltd is managed”, and fares soaring by two and a half times average and from page 13 we know what these are: the company wages. Just how immediate a commitment is this? Is it will be divided in two—at least that is what I think it over 10 years? Is it over five years? Is it over an even says. It says, shorter time? “so that the company can focus solely on getting phases 1 and 2A I then ploughed on to see whether there was anything built on something approaching on time and on budget, I will be of substance and found nothing more until I got to creating new delivery arrangements for both the grossly behind- schedule Euston terminus, and phase 2B of the wider project.” page 5 of the printed version of the Statement, at which point the Prime Minister said that Am I right in assuming that HS2 Ltd will be divided in two? “that £5 billion is just the start”. I love these phrases: “just the start” means there is Now we come on to the really important question: more. Does the Minister agree that that means that are these hints and words an equal commitment for there is more than £5 billion? Will this be set out in the the whole project? Is this Statement a commitment for Budget? the whole project—phase 1, phase 2 and the northern rail? There is a little hint at the end of page 13 where The Statement then goes into a whole series of road the Prime Minister says, improvements—you will notice that there is no “Northern Powerhouse Rail between Leeds and Manchester, commitment to any particular project; there is no which I committed to supporting during my first days in office.” money; there is no deadline. On the next page, it talks about Once again I ask: is this Statement a commitment to all of HS2 and the northern rail project? “new investments in the rail network across the North” and then repeats three schemes which have already The Statement often says very little, except that, been announced, once again with no deadlines and no “we will … explore options for creating a new delivery vehicle for budget. The paragraph concludes with one of the Northern Powerhouse Rail. And we will start treating HS2”— singular commitments in the Statement: At that point, I think that the Statement changed “I can today announce that we will be upgrading the Bristol things slightly from what has been said previously. I East junction”. think it suggested that the two halves of HS2, north What a delight that that is picked out to be in the and south, phase a and phase b, have been divided into midst of this splendid speech. two but will now be in one company called High Speed North. I hope that the Minister is capable of working I could not find anything of substance on pages 7 out how that is going to streamline the project and or 8, but then I got to page 9. There, the Prime deliver it. Minister slags off the management of HS2: The next two pages are blank of comment. Then “Speaking as an MP whose constituency is on the route I the Statement ends with: cannot say that the company has distinguished itself in its handling of local communities. The cost forecasts have exploded. But the “This government will deliver a new anatomy of British poor management to date has not detracted from the fundamental transport”. value of the project.” But what do they actually commit to? Five billion What is he going to do about the management? At no pounds for buses and bicycles, with no programme or point in the speech that I read does he make any timetable; a commitment to build phases 1 and 2a at recommendations about that. between £35 billion and £45 billion by 2030; at best an Page 10, once again, contains absolutely nothing in implied promise to do phase 2 and northern rail, with terms of commitments. When we get to page 11, we no figures, no timescale and no detail; and upgrading are beginning to creep up to a commitment. It starts in Bristol East junction. This is the most vacuous Statement the middle of the page: I have ever heard repeated in this House. To thrive, the north needs a hard, measurable commitment; this “The Infrastructure and Projects Authority considers that this first phase can be delivered for its current projected cost of Statement does not meet that test. £35 billion to £45 billion in today’s prices … if we start now, services could be running by the end of the decade.” Baroness Randerson (LD): My Lords, I feel sorry Then, on the next page, he says: for the Minister, having to repeat all that. But what the “So I am giving high speed rail the green signal.” Statement boasted in juvenile, rhetorical flourishes it 2159 Transport Infrastructure [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Transport Infrastructure 2160 lacked in detail on all fronts. It reminded me of one of were not enough hard commitments: I felt that the those exercises that teachers give primary school children Statement was full of very hard commitments. The to expand their vocabulary. But it lacked detail, and commitment to HS2 draws a line in the sand and transport is all about detail. removes any doubt about whether the project will go Like the noble Lord, I went through the Statement ahead. It means that phase 1 can continue at pace and carefully and was struck by the fact that the first thing that the Bill for phase 2a can come back to your this Government apparently committed to was net Lordships’ House, because I know there is work to be zero by 2050, and the first thing they are going to do is done on it. We will be pushing the western leg towards build lots of new roads. Everyone who knows about Manchester and look at the eastern leg and other transport knows that if you build a road, it gets full of northern areas, where we are looking at connections cars immediately. We will still have cars from today on into Northern Powerhouse Rail too. A very quick the roads in 20 years’time. The electric vehicle revolution infrastructure plan for rail in the north will be carried will not come that quickly and we cannot reach net out to make sure that that entire structure works well zero if we go on with large-scale road-building projects. together. If it does not, clearly HS2 will not be as What was said about east-west rail links is good, beneficial as it would otherwise be. but it needs to go way beyond the few examples here. I shall stay with HS2 and then move on to buses in There is a lack of detail on buses beyond a nice big, due course. The noble Lord mentioned governance shiny figure. I ask the Minister to provide us with and accountability. That is key to the way we approach more detail on the buses, because we can have the bus HS2 and the way we interact with HS2 Ltd in future. revolution a great deal more quickly than we can have This is not necessarily to denigrate the current the railway revolution. We could revolutionise our management of HS2 Ltd: over successive managements buses within a couple of years if we had the money there have been a series of failings, as I am sure a and the legislative framework to do it. number of noble Lords will agree. We want to draw a I was very pleased, of course, to hear that HS2 is line under this and start a new relationship between it not going to be cancelled, but again disappointed and and the department, representing the taxpayer to make really frustrated by the fact that there are just a few sure that we get the best result. hints of how this will go ahead in the future—a couple This new Minister—poor thing—will have an incredibly of avenues have been closed off, but there is no detail important role to play. They will hold HS2 to account on how it will work or how the future will be better and report to Parliament every six months on its than the past. “We are going to change it, we are going progress. Furthermore, we will encourage a culture of to have a Minister”—with all due respect, it is not transparency and accountability,as stated by the Secretary ministerial control that has been lacking, but good, of State some time ago. That is particularly important. solid day-to-day project management. However, we There will be members on the board of HS2 Ltd from will obviously have to wait patiently for some time still both the DfT and the Treasury to make sure that to get the detail that we need. taxpayers’ money is spent as effectively as it possibly I say to the Minister that this is a very grandiose can be. We will also ask the IPA to report on progress series of visions but, in reality, people need certainty every year. There will be a step change in the governance and consistency. They need to know the details of of HS2 going forward. what will happen and, given the scale of the ambition I apologise if I did not explain the delivery in this announcement, it is way beyond the capacity of arrangements well enough. HS2 Ltd will continue as the Department for Transport to deal with. Work will currently on phases 1 and 2a and there will be separate have to be done across government. I will give just one delivery arrangements for Euston and phase 2b. The example of what needs thinking about. If you are to schedule for phase 1 is 2029 to 2033; the ambition is to have all these new buses—one hopes they will be get trains on the track by the end of the decade. electric or hydrogen, but in the short term we are probably talking about electric—we will need to totally Beyond HS2, there is the issue of buses. I have a reinvent the electricity grid to cope in certain parts of personal love of buses. Being the Buses Minister, I the country. The Minister looks doubtful: I have just obviously welcome this funding of £5 billion over five come from a lunchtime event where experts in the field years. Noble Lords have said that there is no detail. confirmed that we need a massive increase in our There is a reason for that: we wanted to show local electricity capacity in parts of the country. There are authorities and bus operators the scale of our ambition lots of questions for her to answer. for buses. Historically, buses have known roughly what they were going to get, but this is a step change in Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My Lords, I have four ambition. We wanted to get that message across so minutes to answer as many of those questions as that our national bus strategy, which we will develop possible. at pace over the coming months, will set out how this investment can best be spent. There will be investment Lord Tunnicliffe: If the Minister consults the in capital and in revenue but until we have the national Companion she will see that she can extend the 20 minutes bus strategy I cannot say for certain exactly where all as necessary to reply fully. this money will go. Another reason I cannot say this for certain is that, Baroness Vere of Norbiton: With the leave of the as we look at integrated transport systems going forward, House, I will certainly do that to answer the questions the most important thing to think about is place-based as fully as I can at this stage. I was slightly disappointed funding. Often funding based on places is not single- that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, felt that there modal. There might be some bus funding from one 2161 Transport Infrastructure [LORDS] Transport Infrastructure 2162

[BARONESS VERE OF NORBITON] have been a bit more space for some of the core issues pot and some cycling funding from another pot, but a that need to be addressed. One is the speed proposed certain place will bid and, rather like with the TCF, it for HS2. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Young, that will offer a cohesive and integrated plan for improving HS1’s speed is hugely slower than that proposed for local transport. We cannot just say, “Here you go, HS2, which is far faster than any other high-speed rail Barnsley, have an extra £1 million.” It must be more system, apart from that in China. Can the Minister thought through than that. That will come out of how comment on why this important issue has been omitted we look at the framework for the national bus strategy from the Statement, particularly given that the cost of and how we integrate the strategy with getting local the proposed speed is so high? If it was somewhat authorities to step up in partnership with their bus slower, the savings could be used for some of the other operators, which is essential, to make the best use of projects set out in the Statement. the money. I wanted to talk about this very important issue and Baroness Vere of Norbiton: The noble Baroness will that same partnership. We do not need new legislation be well aware that we had an extensive debate on HS2, to do this. We already have the Bus Services Act, its speed and all the various elements. These issues which has partnerships in it. Where partnerships exist, have been well debated and the Government agree the ridership of buses goes up significantly. Bristol has with the spirit of Oakervee. His report discusses speed seen amazing gains, as has South Gloucestershire, among many other things. Indeed, there were 60 because the local authority has a really good partnership conclusions in the report, and it would have been with the bus operator. The local authority puts in impossible for the Government to discuss every issue place bus priority measures, steps up and says, “I will in it. We will respond in full in due course and that will give you your buses and services.” That will come to cover the issue of speed. However, we are not minded fruition over the coming months. We will work closely, to slow the train down. Phase 1 has been designed as we have already started to do, with local authorities with speed in mind and it is not going to be redesigned. and bus operators to make sure that they are ready to There is therefore no need to reduce the speed. seize this level of ambition. It must be collaborative. Cycling is at a very similar stage to the bus strategy Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): My Lords, in that we need to consider the means by which we can the problem was that the Statement was the least get it to the most needed places, alongside other professional and most hyperbolic pile of nonsense funding, if that makes sense. from a government spokesperson—not the noble I think I have answered all the questions. If not, I Baroness. It was an appalling abuse. It read like a will write. Telegraph column, so we know who might have written some of it. There are two big problems with HS2. 3.44 pm First, it is extremely damaging to our environment. Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, I was We are losing 108 ancient woodlands, five wildlife Secretary of State for Transport in 1996, when we gave refuges, 39 nature reserves and 33 protected sites. The the go-ahead for HS1—the fast link between St Pancras project is also a huge emitter of CO2 . Does the and the Channel Tunnel. It was opposed by local MPs Minister agree that, as a result of that and the extra and challenged through the courts. People said it was road extensions and plans proposed in the Statement, too expensive and it was challenged on environmental the Government will be unable to meet their CO2 grounds. People said we should spend the money on reduction targets? local lines instead. Today, not a single Member of your Lordships’ House would argue that HS1 was not Baroness Vere of Norbiton: The Minister does not the right decision to take. Will it not be the same in agree. I take it that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, is 25 years’ time about HS2? not a fan of the Prime Minister, but the sort of words she uses are somewhat inappropriate. On the substance Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I thank my noble friend of her question about the environment and ancient for his question, which was not a plant. Last Friday I woodlands, noble Lords have had the opportunity to went on HS1 and had the honour of being in the cab. discuss those issues in significant detail. HS2 is committed It was amazing, although they did not let me drive the to no net loss of biodiversity. We believe that it is an train. I drove the simulator afterwards. It was striking important part of achieving net zero emissions by that when you are in the cab and looking down the 2050. Lost wildlife habitat will be replaced and, as I track, it is beautiful, it is straight and it works. There is have said in your Lordships’ House, on the stretch little clutter and you can see that it is modern. Barrelling from London to Crewe 43 ancient woodlands will be along at 140 miles per hour, you think, “I could go a affected, but only 20% of each. That is out of a total bit faster, actually”. I went from St Pancras to Ashford, of 52,000 ancient woodlands. I see the noble Baroness, an area that has been revolutionised. The development Lady Young of Old Scone, who will say, “But that is there has been amazing. I agree with my noble friend; salami slicing”. That is the thinnest slice of salami, HS1 was a great boon and HS2 will be, too. which will not make even half a breakfast.

Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab): My Lords, there has Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, I declare been comment on the lack of detail and substance in an interest, as in the register, and as a former Transport the Statement. If a little less time had been expended Secretary, of which there are quite a few in this House. on corny analogies and flowery phrases, there might Does my noble friend recall that over 40 years ago, 2163 Transport Infrastructure [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Transport Infrastructure 2164

Germany developed an elaborate system of bus-type mention of Sheffield, the fourth-largest city in England. vehicles which travel by rail as well as road? I welcome Can the Minister confirm that there will be an eastern the part about buses but our roads are very crowded, leg rather than linking Manchester through Leeds to and there is still a big network of completely disused the north, and that that leg will go through the east rail tracks in this country.Will my noble friend undertake Midlands, South Yorkshire and then through Leeds, that this technology, which is quite well advanced, will so that we can have some benefit to a county which also be included in our great transport revolution? has a population greater than that of Scotland?

Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I thank my noble friend Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I absolutely understand for raising that issue. It is of course critical that where the noble Lord’s desire to get improved connectivity to tracks already go into major towns or cities—some Sheffield. Indeed, we want improved connectivity between might be Beeching line closures—the opportunity for all the major cities in the north, which is why we are reopening those lines may not take the form of heavy doing the integrated plan for rail for the north. rail; there are many new and innovative ways. I know that the one my noble friend referred to is from Lord Haselhurst (Con): My Lords, as the completion 40 years ago, but nowadays there are some lightweight, of the HS2 project will lead to a dramatic slashing of low-cost alternatives to building heavy rail, which journey times between Manchester, Birmingham and could effectively, and with good value for money, get London, does the Minister agree that it would be people to where they need to be. sensible, at this stage, to make more effort to promote Manchester Airport and Birmingham Airport as points Lord Berkeley (Lab): My Lords, a long time ago the of entry into this country, attractive to all categories Government made a commitment that, before of visitor? This would take some of the pressure off construction started on HS2, they would produce a the London airport system, as well as contributing to new cost-benefit analysis and business case. That was levelling up the economy of our country, as the confirmed to me in a letter from the noble Baroness, Government are set upon. Lady Sugg, when she was Minister, on 18 December 2018. Has that cost-benefit analysis and business case been published, and if not, when does she expect it to Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I thank my noble friend be, and can she confirm that it will be published before for that question. One of my first visits, when I was permanent construction starts and the formal go-ahead Aviation Minister, was to Birmingham Airport and is given? that is precisely what they said to me: once HS2 is up and running, the journey time to London will be Baroness Vere of Norbiton: Yes, the noble Lord, slashed. For example, if you live in north-east London Lord Berkeley, will be well aware that we are due a or close to Euston, you will be able to use Birmingham final business case, which will set out the benefits and rather than a London airport. costs for the phase. The notice to proceed will be published alongside it. Lord Grocott (Lab): My Lords, I strongly support the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Young, that Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I can find no mention yesterday’s pessimists about HS1 are today’s enthusiasts in the Statement regarding HS2 and the north-east of for HS1. The same point can be made about the first England. Can the Minister confirm that there is no London-to-Birmingham railway, which was ferociously change in the plan in relation to that? That is, HS2 opposed on cost and other grounds. Since it was built rolling stock will run on conventional track north of in 1838, it must represent, though no one can calculate Leeds, joining the east coast main line just north-east it, the most phenomenal return on capital of any of that city. As I raised when we debated HS2 a couple project ever constructed, which we could not possibly of weeks ago, to be successful, that link to Newcastle do without. I ask the Minister, given that the Victorians upon Tyne, where I live, needs four tracks on the east built the first London-to-Birmingham railway in five coast main line as opposed to the current two. Will the years, with picks, shovels and wheelbarrows, if it is too Minister confirm that the Government would be willing much to expect a better completion date. I think the to look closely at the case for expanding the number of one she offered was somewhere between 2029 and tracks north of Leeds? 2032, or something like that. If she gives an option, it will be the latter of those dates. Can she not be firmer Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I will certainly take that and speed it up a bit? point back to the department. The parts of the track that the noble Lord mentions will all be part of the Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My Lords, Members integrated plan for rail for the north, which will be an across the Government would very much like to speed important, if fairly short, project to make sure that this up, but a process needs to be gone through and HS2 works with NPR and all the multibillion pounds this is a highly technical line. The noble Lord is quite of rail investment that we are already putting into the right, and I mentioned during the recent HS2 debate north. It would be absolutely wrong for us to undertake that four lines went under construction within 10 years such a massive and costly project unless we squeeze back in the 1830s and 1840s. Many considerations every single benefit out of it that we can. must be gone through to build these lines and, nowadays, we have far more concern about the environment than Lord Blunkett (Lab): My Lords,there were six mentions we have ever had before, and about stakeholder and of Manchester and, quite rightly, mentions of both community engagement, and making sure that local Liverpool and Leeds in the Statement, but not a single communities feel happy about the construction. 2165 Transport Infrastructure [LORDS] Transport Infrastructure 2166

Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, in the prologue, the carriages? Companies such as Hitachi and Bombardier long before we got to the dappled trees, my noble have been mentioned. Are the contracts going to be friend referred to Lincoln. I am glad that she recognised given out in Britain? the congestion outside that great city. Can I infer from that that Lincoln will be high in the order of priorities Baroness Vere of Norbiton: The right reverend Prelate as our roads are improved? refers to an issue that is raised fairly frequently. I think that we can all agree that phase 1 will go ahead Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I thank my noble friend straightaway because enabling works have already taken for his local question about Lincoln. I do not have place. Part of the integrated plan for rail will look at statistics to hand about our roads investment in Lincoln. ways of getting the benefits of this new railway more I am fairly sure there will be something, and I will quickly, and it may be—I am not prejudging this at write to him. all—that construction starts in several places at once, as well as at different points, in order that it can join up. To me that seems quite sensible, but I am sure that Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab): My Lords, first, someone technical will tell me that it is not. However, I thank the Minister for the letter of 4 February that it is our ambition to get the benefits more quickly and she wrote to all Peers who took part in the debate on to keep the costs as low as possible. We will certainly 23 January. I certainly found it very helpful and look at all the eventualities when it comes to that part encouraging, although not all her noble friends did. I of the railway. will raise a question that was touched on by her noble friend Lord Haselhurst. The Minister says that, if the On the construction of the rolling stock, this does project goes ahead, HS2 will create a long-term carbon not need to be considered for some time yet. Of course alternative to domestic flights or driving, and that it would be very good if the trains were built in HS2 can play a key role in achieving the transition to Britain, but I happen to know that the HS1 trains were carbon net zero by 2050—something that I wish the built in Japan and that they function very well. But, Green Party would occasionally take seriously. The again, we cannot prejudge that and it will be some Prime Minister’s Statement says that: time before that contract is awarded. “Passengers arriving at Birmingham Airport will be able to get to central London by train in 38 minutes, which compares Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab): My Lords, can favourably with the time it takes to get from Heathrow by taxi”. the Minister give us some assurances about the Presumably we are not now going to have a third management changes at HS2? I worked first with HS1 runway. from an environmental point of view and then with Crossrail. I have been appalled by HS2’s environmental illiteracy. Can we make sure that in the future phases Baroness Vere of Norbiton: My Lords, the third of this development, the company that replaces HS2, runway at Heathrow is a private development. If it or its reconfiguration or whatever arrangements are falls within the criteria of the airports national policy made, is required to use its best endeavours to avoid statement, it will go ahead. going through ancient woodlands and other sensitive sites? About half of the sensitive sites that are being Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, I give a perspective trashed by this development were not even identified from the hills in the middle of the Pennines. I am by the company when it carried out its reviews, and interested in knowing that we are going to have more that is negligent. tree-dappled sunlight. Wewelcome the trees; the sunlight Perhaps I might also make the point that as far as might be beyond even the present Prime Minister. I the 52,000 ancient woodlands are concerned, it used just point out that those of us who live in the corridor to be one woodland, but it has been so split up and between east Lancashire and Skipton in the Aire Valley hacked into small fragments that now there are only in Yorkshire are not bothered about having high-speed 52,000 small pieces of it. If we keep on doing that, we rail. We want our railway back: the 11 miles between will not have any at all. Colne and Skipton. We would be quite happy for the trains to go at a normal speed, but please can we have our railway back? Baroness Vere of Norbiton: I hope to be able to put the record straight. I do not propose that there will be changes to the management of HS2; rather, changes Baroness Vere of Norbiton: The noble Lord is a will be made to its governance. As I explained earlier, doughty campaigner on this matter. We have heard his the DfT and HMT will be on the board and there will message and, as he knows, we are working on it. be a new Minister. I will ensure that I mention to the new Minister, whenever she or he takes up their role, The Lord Bishop of Durham: My Lords, perhaps we that stakeholder engagement and ensuring that might return to the north-east. The noble Lord, environmental stakeholders are included as part of the Lord Shipley, and I, along with many others, have process is absolutely essential. argued previously that this infrastructure should have begun in the north and the south at the same time. In Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, this is the review, can we please ensure that we are working a hugely welcome announcement as far as the economy not just south to north but north to south? This would of the West Midlands is concerned. While I understand help speed up the process. Can the Minister also that the Statement needs to make a lot of references to answer a question on the production of the trains and the northern powerhouse, it makes no reference to the 2167 Transport Infrastructure [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2168 issue of east-west links in the Midlands. The Minister the United Nations Fish Stocks Agreement—UNFSA— will know that it takes almost as long to go from and become a global leader in fisheries management Leicester to Derby or from Leicester or Derby to as befits our island nation. Birmingham as it does to go from Manchester to The Bill’s objectives for sustainable fisheries Leeds, so this is a real issue. Can she assure me that in management ensure a UK-wide framework to manage the work that is being taken forward, the links within the fish that live in UK waters. We have worked closely the Midlands will be given full consideration? with the devolved Administrations in developing this framework to ensure that our approach fully respects Baroness Vere of Norbiton: The noble Lord is right the devolution settlements, while recognising that we and we intend that the work on the integrated plan for have a shared responsibility to protect our marine rail should include the Midlands and the north. Of environment and to support a thriving industry across course, the department is engaging with Midlands the UK. The Bill provides the powers to manage and Connect because of its interest in the Midlands rail support the recreational sea fishing community too, as hub, which would certainly lead to improvements in well as the commercial sector. east to west connectivity. We are well aware of the First and foremost, this Bill confirms in law our issue and we are working on it. commitment to environmentally, economically and socially sustainable fishing. Healthy fish stocks are the basis of a thriving and profitable fishing industry. We Fisheries Bill [HL] must therefore ensure that we apply science-based Second Reading management approaches both to the benefit of the environment but also, crucially, to the long-term profitability of our fishing industry. 4.04 pm This Bill takes and reforms the EU’s sustainable Moved by Lord Gardiner of Kimble fishing objectives and commits to a new, ambitious set of UK objectives, which are in the Bill. These include That the Bill be now read a second time. a climate change objective, to ensure that the impacts of the fishing industry on climate change are minimised TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department while ensuring that fisheries management adapts to a for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner changing climate; objectives to further the collection of Kimble) (Con): My Lords, as we are an island of scientific evidence across the Administrations and nation, our seas are integral to our history, economy to take the precautionary approach to fisheries and culture, so it is a great privilege to open this debate. management in the absence of such evidence; and the A rich diversity of fish and shellfish provides us with national benefit objective, which seeks to ensure that a nutritious, valuable food and employment. I recognise benefit to the UK is felt as a result of UK boats at the outset the dangers of this harvest: seven lives fishing stocks from UK waters—the first time such a were lost in 2019, and I pay tribute to the bravery of requirement has been included in our legislation. those at sea and their families. The Bill requires the Government and devolved Together with the Agriculture Bill and the Environment Administrations to set out in a joint fisheries statement Bill, this Bill creates a strong and legally binding how we will together contribute to the achievement of framework to deliver this Government’s ambition to the objectives. Our intention is for all policies that leave the natural environment in a better state than we achieve the objectives to be included in the joint inherited it. It is crucial that we are successful. The fisheries statement. There is, however, a provision in Government’s vision is to build a sustainable fishing the Bill to allow the Secretary of State to set out industry, with healthy seas and a fair deal for UK reserved or non-devolved policy in a Secretary of fishing interests. This Bill is a key step towards delivering State fisheries statement. that vision. The Bill includes the requirement to produce fisheries Fisheries management is complex and requires management plans, alongside the devolved responsive, science-based policy-making. Data on fish Administrations where appropriate, delivering on our stocks must be gathered and analysed. The safe levels manifesto commitment. These plans will set out on a of exploitation of those stocks must be considered, as stock-by-stock or fisheries basis our plans for achieving well as the allocation of those resources and the the sustainability of those stocks. The plans go further granting of rights to use them. On top of this are than we have gone before in relation to stocks, for technical rules on matters ranging from the use of which assessing sustainability is much harder. Many types of fishing gear to minimum landing sizes of of these are valuable shellfish stocks. The plans commit species—all required to allow the harvest of our fish us, in those circumstances where we do not have the while avoiding damage to stocks and the environment. scientific data to assess their health, to develop the The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 ensures scientific evidence base on which we will then be able that the existing legislative framework to manage our to do so. The fisheries statements and the fisheries fisheries remains in place after the transition period. management plans will be legally binding. Along with earlier pieces of fisheries legislation, this The Bill also extends the powers of the Marine Bill gives us the powers needed to manage our fisheries Management Organisation and the devolved more effectively in future, ensuring that we can meet Administrations to protect the marine environment, our international obligations under the United Nations strengthening them so that they can be used to restore Convention on the Law of the Sea—UNCLOS—and and enhance, as well as conserve, the marine environment. 2169 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2170

[LORD GARDINER OF KIMBLE] Administrations, at their requests, need powers to Secondly, the Bill creates the powers that the UK amend the highly technical regulations governing rules needs to operate as an independent coastal state and such as the size of fishing nets or the grading of fish, fulfil our international obligations. From 2021, the and to amend measures so that we can control aquatic UK will be an independent coastal state, able to animal disease. control who can fish in our waters. Wewill be responsible Beyond this, the Bill creates new schemes to help for setting annual total allowable catches of fish species fishing fleets thrive across the UK. These include within our waters. For stocks that are shared with broadening grant-making powers, creating powers for other coastal states such as the EU and Norway, we England and Wales to tender some of the additional will negotiate to agree fishing quotas. Currently, the quota received after we become an independent coastal EU distributes quotas between its member states using state, and establishing a new scheme to help the fishing a principle called relative stability, which provides a industry comply with the landing obligation in England. fixed percentage of quota based on fishing patterns from the 1970s. This gives an unfair share of quota to The Bill also makes a technical correction to the UK fishers, not reflective of what is found in UK Welsh devolution settlement by extending the competence waters, and so we will negotiate to move towards a of the National Assembly for Wales in relation to fairer, more scientific method for the allocation of fisheries in the Welsh offshore zone, from 12 nautical shared stocks. miles to 30 nautical miles at its greatest extent. The Welsh Government previously devolved Executive The Bill will put in place the powers we need to responsibilities in this area. operate as an independent coastal state by allowing us to set fishing opportunities and to determine which These new powers for the four fisheries administrations vessels may enter our waters. Any decisions about ensure that the fishing industry across the UK can be giving vessels from the EU and any other coastal supported appropriately. However, in some areas, it states access to our waters will be a matter for negotiation. makes sense to continue having a common approach. This Bill provides the framework to enable us to The Bill creates common approaches where the implement whatever is agreed internationally.For example, Government and the devolved Administrations have it ensures that should we negotiate access to our agreed this is necessary—for example, a joint approach waters, vessels from other coastal states will have to to managing the access of foreign vessels through hold a licence. This is equitable and ensures a level licences given by the single issuing authority. playing field between UK and foreign boats. I am pleased to say that the Delegated Powers and Enforcement in UK waters is a devolved matter, Regulatory Reform Committee published an exceptional and each fisheries administration is responsible for and highly positive report relating to the powers contained control and enforcement in their waters. In England, in the previous Bill. We await its report into this Bill the Marine Management Organisation has assessed, with considerable interest. It should be noted that and continues to assess, the levels of enforcement there are no additional delegated powers contained in capacity required for fisheries protection and the options this Bill, beyond the extension of some powers to the for best delivering this. It is undertaking a significant devolved Administrations, at their request. It is important increase in the number of personnel and surveillance that we are clear to your Lordships and the other place assets relating to fisheries protection, with a sizeable on precisely what these powers are about, why some of increase in support, much of which is already in place. them are extremely technical and why it is important We are committed to continuing to work closely with that we take advantage of them as we have more our neighbours to ensure the sustainable management technological advances. Where we have legislated within of shared fish stocks. devolved competence, we have sought legislative consent Thirdly, the Bill introduces powers to make reforms from the devolved legislatures. Our objective is to to our fishing industries across the Administrations, ensure that the fishing industry across the UK is while respecting the devolution settlements. Many of supported and can thrive under the governance of the the regulations that form the common fisheries policy relevant fisheries administration. will be retained as part of UK law, providing legal The Bill puts sustainability at the front and centre certainty to fishers at the end of the transition period. of our future fisheries management policy. It sets us It is right that while the Bill gives us the powers to on a path to building a sustainable and profitable move away from this law, we make evidence-based fishing industry, with healthy seas and a fair deal for changes. UK fishing interests.Importantly,it respects and enhances The management of fisheries is devolved and this the devolution settlements, giving the devolved legislatures Bill respects that. Officials from the devolved more powers and responsibilities than they have ever Administrations have been closely involved in the had. It will allow us to control access to our waters by development of the provisions in the Bill. I am pleased foreign fishing boats, and, for the first time in 45 years, to say that the Bill reflects this joint working by to place equitable rules on them while they are in our legislating on behalf of the devolved Administrations waters. in some areas, at their request. In most cases, the A sustainable harvest of our waters is our objective. powers provided are equivalent to those provided for The objectives in the Bill make the direction of our the Secretary of State in the Bill, within the devolved future policy abundantly clear. The future of our Administrations’ competence. fishing fleet is intrinsically bound up with the vitality The dynamic nature of our fisheries, and the of the marine ecosystem. There are noble Lords here importance of keeping pace with scientific developments, who have considerable experiences of fisheries, some mean that both the Government and the devolved as former Fisheries Ministers. Seafaring and fishing 2171 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2172 the seas have a very long history, and many in the agree. However, there is a worrying lack of detail over fishing fleets feel that they have not been cared for. the Government’s plans regarding maximum sustainable This is an opportunity for us all to ensure prosperity yield. The common fisheries policy has disappointed for this important British industry. I emphasise that in relation to the protection of fish stocks, but we will this will be possible only if we are, above all, wise need more detail from the Minister to be confident custodians. that the new regime will present a genuine step forward. I beg to move. As part of that, we will explore mechanisms for the Government to provide periodic reports to Parliament on the impacts of their new fisheries regime. 4.19 pm We also see in the Bill that the Government have Lord Grantchester (Lab): My Lords, I thank the inserted new commitments on climate change. This is Minister for his introduction to this important and great news. However, there is no mention of how strategic Bill. fishers will be assisted in cutting down on the use of harmful plastics or adopting the use of greener In the region of 470 days has passed since the technologies, both at sea and during processing. Nor Government published the first version of their Fisheries is there any statutory commitment for the sector to Bill, back in October 2018. The then Secretary of meet net-zero emissions. The challenge is that the Bill State, Michael Gove, spoke of how the Government needs to bring across aspects of the commitment of was finally putting our hard-working fishers and hard-up public goods in other Defra Bills into this framework. coastal communities first after years of them being There are areas where we would like to see real progress ignored and undermined by the workings of the common over the course of the next decade, and I certainly do fisheries policy of the EU. However, as the Conservative not want us to look back on this Bill as a missed Party found itself in trouble and its numbers in the opportunity. Commons began to fall, this Bill was mysteriously stalled before Report. It never made it to your Lordships’ We are not alone with such concerns. While they House—meaning that we are now looking at acknowledge the progress made since publication of implementing an entirely new fisheries regime on an the first Bill, groups including the Marine Conservation accelerated timetable. That hardly provides the due Society and Greener UK have called for the toughening consideration to bring the clarity that UK fishers and tightening up of the Bill’s measures on climate urgently require. change and ecosystem sustainability. We stand ready I am sure we will hear some of the same rhetoric to work with those organisations and others to facilitate from the Minister today, but we are all serious about those debates.It is encouraging to see that your Lordships’ improving the prospects of the UK’s fishing industry sub-committee report on discards has been well receive and coastal communities. The Minister shares this and that the Government have included new mechanisms commitment—he has demonstrated that in his in the Bill to tackle this. Amendments will be tabled in correspondence and briefing to Peers, for which we are Committee to examine how this will work. We certainly most grateful—but Labour needs to be sure that this welcome the increased responsibilities of the Marine Bill does all that it needs to do to have confidence in Management Organisation. the Government’s proposals. Having promised to cut the much-derided red tape I certainly welcome the more collaborative approach of Brussels, the Government have produced a second that has been adopted with the devolved Administrations. iteration of the Bill that has somehow become more We have not always seen such a productive approach cumbersome. The fishing industry needs the Government in relation to Brexit legislation. The priority now is to to understand that many regulations must be much instil the further confidence that devolved Ministers clearer, more viable and realistic, in tune with the will be able to play their role in shaping the delivery of evidence from those who have to abide by them. After the new regime, with the inclusion of their priorities. all, that was the promise made so frequently and forcibly during the campaigns. As was the case with the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill—and as we will see with the Agriculture Despite 40 pages having been added since the first Bill and Environment Bill when they reach this House— Bill, the document omits other important topics. While the Government have chosen to amend the legislation we accept the need for a new licensing regime and a following the recent election. Following some of the new power to set annual fishing quota opportunities, criticisms of the original Bill, many of these changes there is very little information on the interplay between are welcome. However, some need to be enhanced the two. Will a boat need a licence to secure quota, or further. For example, we recognise and appreciate the will having quota be a precondition of receiving a clarity provided by the new Clause 1. This replicates licence? How will the quota regime operate? What will and adds to the number of principles and objectives happen with regard to the UK’s share of UK quotas which underpin the common fisheries policy that has on 1 January 2021? With Britain now an independent governed access to British waters in previous decades. coastal state, will the Government unilaterally take However, the clause does not include the necessary back 100% of the quota on day one, before redistribution, objective to land fish from British waters at British or will they adopt a phased approach? Will Ministers ports if it is to bring prosperity back to coastal seek continued access to non-British distant waters communities. where some of the UK fleet has such an interest? Several other aspects of the Bill do not quite meet While the Bill introduces offences for illegal fishing, Labour’s hopes and expectations. The Minister will we do not yet know what enforcement will look like on tell us that the Bill has sustainability at its heart, and I the ground—or, rather, on the open seas. Recent media 2173 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2174

[LORD GRANTCHESTER] contradict each other. Clause 1(2)(a)(i) clarifies the reports suggest that the Government are bolstering first of those—the sustainability objective—as meaning the number of both boats and personnel, but I know that activities must be of colleagues, including my noble friend Lord West of “environmentally sustainable in the long term”. Spithead, who want more detail; indeed, he has put down a Question on the Order Paper for tomorrow. But in paragraph (a)(ii) there is a commitment to The Bill lacks detail on how fishers will be protected “achieve economic, social and employment benefits and contribute to the availability of food supplies”. and conflict avoided. This will need to be tested long before the joint fisheries statement and the Secretary I believe that is at odds with the preceding statement of State’s fisheries statement. In Committee, we will be in sub-paragraph (i). Sustainability and economic benefits probing the Government’s plans to ensure that a fair are not easy bedfellows, and the Government will have quota is allocated to small boats, facilitating the creation their work cut out to ensure that the Bill produces both. of new jobs at sea, in ports and in the food supply I am sure we will return to this subject in Committee. chain. There will be amendments to ensure that a The Bill sets out the need to produce both a joint majority of catch in UK waters is landed at UK ports, fisheries statement and fisheries management plans. that UK-registered boats have the first option to take As with everything, planning ahead is essential both up further quota, that the Government retain a strategic to secure economic investment in equipment and to reserve of quota to assist with achieving maximum preserve stocks. But under the procedure rules, we sustainable yield and that foreign vessels cannot undercut read that the fisheries policy authorities may, at any UK boats on safety or employment standards. The time, prepare and publish a replacement joint fisheries Minister referred in his opening remarks to the dangers statement or amendments to a joint fisheries statement. faced by those at sea. Recognising this, we call for the I am sure there will be good reasons for this, but I fear raising of standards and not an undercutting of UK that it will not lead to security for our fishermen. It is livelihoods. also unlikely that chopping and changing the JFS will I very much hope that the Minister and his colleagues lead to sustainability. in the Commons are willing to work collaboratively on There is no timeframe in the Bill for the preparation this legislation. It can be improved and, whatever the and implementation of fisheries management plans. I changed circumstances in the other place, it is clearly ask the Minister whether there is an anticipated timetable in the interests of our fishers that the Government when all species will be covered by individual FMPs. It approach this process with a commitment to work is essential to sustainable fishing that these plans should with your Lordships’ House. We will be tabling a be in place as quickly as possible. number of amendments, some of which we have already suggested to the Minister and his departmental officials. The joint fisheries statement must be reviewed every I very much hope that the responses to those amendments six years from the day on which it is first published. So throughout Committee stage will be constructive and far, so good. But the reports on fisheries statements that, whether through government or opposition and fisheries management plans must be published amendments, we will ultimately send a much-improved every three years, for each subsequent three-year period. Bill to our colleagues in the House of Commons. There will, of course, be only one overarching joint fisheries statement, but there will be a fisheries management plan for each species of fish to be caught 4.28 pm in our waters. Those two are inextricably linked, so I Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD): am curious as to why different timeframes have been My Lords, I thank the Minister for his informative specified. Perhaps the Minister would care to comment. introduction to this important Bill and for his time I am also concerned that a fisheries management and that of the Minister of State for fisheries. I also plan will refer, among other criteria, to a “geographical thank those organisations who have sent me information, area”. Fish are not like cows or pigs in being able to be and in particular the House of Lords Library for its corralled into a specific area; they are completely free briefing, which was comprehensive and excellent. creatures. Of course they will have their preferred It would be completely dishonest of me to pretend spawning grounds, but we are beginning to see that the that I am an expert on fishery matters but, luckily, we pattern of fish movements is changing. Cod are moving do have an expert on our Benches in my noble friend further north, as climate change begins to warm the Lord Teverson, so I will leave all technical matters to waters further south. Mackerel are being caught by him and deal with those matters which I am able to the pelagic fleets and are no longer making their way comprehend—I have warned him of this. down to Cornwall in what was the traditional mackerel- I welcome this Bill, which is a definite step in the fishing season. I am, therefore, intrigued as to how right direction of returning control of our fishing fisheries management plans will specify geographical waters to the UK. Sustainability is everything. I believe areas for some species of fish. Perhaps the Minister this Bill moves us in the right direction of helping to could clarify this point in his summing up. preserve fish stocks and build up those in danger of I am somewhat addicted to television documentaries being depleted. But I have grave concerns about the that deal with real people in real situations. “Helicopter way in which sustainability is enshrined in the legal ER”and “Saving Lives at Sea”are among my favourites. process of the Bill. I have, therefore, been watching the six-week series As we have heard, there are eight objectives at the about fishing around the coast of Cornwall. This is beginning, which at first glance look sensible but on fascinating, dealing for the most part with the lives of more careful examination appear, in some cases, to those who own or work on vessels under 10 metres. 2175 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2176

Each weekly programme begins with a series of clips I welcome the licensing of foreign vessels. This is of fishermen around Cornwall, generally fishing for essential to ensure that the total allowable catch is not different species. But the message is the same: young exceeded and our own fishing fleets are able to prosper, men with families are struggling to make a living from but it is also important that TACs are set at a level that their traditional career—and it is a career. We see is supported by ICES scientific advice, not set higher young men following in their fathers’ footsteps, learning due to pressure from the large pelagic fleet owners. the trade from them, working alongside them, borrowing There is a great deal of technical detail and some from them, and saving to buy their own boats and loopholes in the Bill, which we will return to in Committee. start out on their own. But this is a rough and hard I shall finish by raising Clause 23(6), which allows the trade. Secretary of State to set a catch or effort quota of For me, one of the most poignant scenes was the zero, or to replace a quota already set, provided that harbour front at Mousehole one evening in the middle this is done before the end of the relevant calendar of winter: there was not a light from a house to be year. What will happen if the Secretary of State adjusts seen. All were either holiday lets or second homes. The a quota down to below the amount of fish already fishermen were housed up on the hill outside the town taken in that year, thus making the catch over quota? in social housing, which was all they could afford. The What will happen to the unlucky culprit who has average wage was £15,000; the average house price fished according to his or her quota but then suddenly £300,000. The fishermen’s cottages on the quayside, finds himself in breach of the legal limit? I look which they would previously have occupied, were now forward to the Minister’s response. well out of their price range, snapped up by those who visit for their annual holidays or the odd week. This 4.38 pm cannot be right. We are a nation of coastal waters. Up and down the country, we see local people engaged in Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, I suggest essential work that is not highly paid being priced out that the Fisheries Bill to which we are giving a Second of their villages by second-home owners and holiday Reading today is no more than a picture frame without lets. While the tourist trade is an important part of a picture. What that picture will be—the detailed many rural and coastal economies, it really is time the shape of Britain’s new post-Brexit fisheries policies— Government grasped this nettle and did something remains as shrouded in mystery as ever. I note that I about a tourist tax and second-home owners. Sorry, am the first person speaking in this debate who has that is the end of the rant. even recognised that quite a lot of this will have to be thrashed out in negotiation with the European Union There is a vast difference between the pelagic fishing and Norway and cannot just be decided unilaterally fleets and the smaller vessels under 10 metres that by us—although we will of course have a much bigger operate inshore and off the coasts of our country. I say than we had before we left the EU. Moreover, as have seen some very interesting adaptations to boats with other aspects of post-Brexit legislation, the detailed that have had the end cut off in order to bring them implementation and filling-out of that picture is very under the 10 metre rule. Those fishermen operating on much conferred in wide-ranging powers for the Executive, such vessels represent 79% of the fleet but hold only with only a pretty vestigial role for Parliaments and 2% of the quota. Some 20% of the vessels are the large Assemblies. pelagic fleet, which receive the vast majority of the Thirdly, while I note what the Minister said about quota. There is a desperate need for fishing quotas to fisheries being a devolved subject, and due account of be redistributed to bring a much fairer share to the that having been taken, there is not a lot about how smaller fishers who are struggling to make a living. the devolved Administrations in Edinburgh, Cardiff The UK’s fishing quota is owned or controlled by just and Belfast are to be brought into policy-making for a five families. I ask the Minister to give assurances sector of great importance to their economies and that these inequalities will be effectively dealt with in electorates—of proportionally greater importance, the Bill. incidentally, than it is to the English economy. There is concern that a legal maximum sustainable That is quite a long list of gaps that I hope the yield for each stock, which was a commitment in the Minister will fill when he replies to this debate. With Conservative manifesto, will not be achieved if scientific regard to filling in the details of that picture, I have evidence is not used to determine what an individual not the slightest intention of asking the Government stock’s MSY should be. Since there is currently no to divulge their negotiating position in the talks, which fail-safe mechanism for ensuring that the total allowance will probably get under way in March—even if they catch is not exceeded, just how will the MSY be knew what it was, which I rather doubt. I will be arrived at and how will it be monitored and policed? neither surprised nor particularly disappointed if the Minister says that at this stage he will not go into that When it comes to the Marine Management detail. But it is important to go into those negotiations, Organisation granting licences to foreign fishing boats which will inevitably be tough and difficult, with a set to fish within British fishery limits, I fear that, for me of realistic and realisable objectives, not just a collection at least, the Bill causes confusion. The MMO will of slogans and mantras—which is all that has been grant licences but only for use outside of the devolved unveiled in the past three and a half years. We should Administrations’ waters, but boats licensed by the also be prepared to reach compromises along the Scottish Minister will be valid throughout all UK way, since an all-or-nothing approach would be all waters. Can Minister explain just how this will work too likely to inflict damage well beyond the fisheries in practice? sector itself. 2177 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2178

[LORD HANNAY OF CHISWICK] so as fisheries are such an important subject for them. It is not rocket science to suggest that any decent The alternative, to have a kind of running battle deal will have to cover three crucial elements. The first, between the devolved Administrations and the UK and most sensitive, will be access by other parties to Government, will only feed the fissiparous tendencies fishing grounds lying within our exclusive economic already undermining the unity of the United Kingdom. zone and territorial waters. Secondly, there will need So it is a complex picture, but I see no reason why to be shared arrangements for fish stocks in those our fishing industry should not emerge quite a lot waters, particularly the North and Irish Seas and the better placed than it is now, so long as we do not insist English Channel. The third crucial item will be the on negotiating overreach and do not play about with tariff and phytosanitary control arrangements applying fancy ideas of linkages with other sectors, of the sort to both our exports and imports. If we gave total that were put forward recently by the Taoiseach when priority to one of those three, or excluded one of them he suggested some kind of linkage with financial from consideration, the results would not be as we services. That would make a balanced fisheries deal on wished. the three crucial decisions that I have suggested far Access to waters is a hugely sensitive issue. It is not more difficult to reach, and it would be a mistake if we a new one, nor did it first arise in the context of our went down that road. membership of the European Union or the common fisheries policy. In 1964, when the Government of the day decided to extend Britain’s territorial waters from 4.49 pm six to 12 miles, we negotiated the London Convention, Baroness Byford (Con): My Lords, it is a great privilege which gave what were called historic rights to continue to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Perhaps I to fish in our waters to a number of European countries. should be more upbeat than he was, but he has wide At that time, it is important to remember, we were not experience and knowledge which I certainly recognise. a member of the EU, and the common fisheries policy This is an important, positive Bill; it has many did not exist. That has to be borne in mind, because challenges and, as the noble Lord said, it is a complex that history will be on the table when we come to picture, so there are no easy solutions. But I welcome negotiate. It will not decide how we handle it, but it the Bill and the changes made to the original Bill needs to be taken into account. That is not just a legal debated in the Commons over a year ago. At the end issue—I am not making a legal point here at all—but a of December this year, the UK will no longer be political issue: what is pragmatic and practical. I believe constrained by the common fisheries policy, which I that an all-or-nothing approach to that issue will work believe has failed to protect fish stocks, the seabed or to our disadvantage. its marine life. There is then the hugely important issue of shared As others have said, the Bill gives the UK powers to management and conservation of stocks. That must establish a sustainable approach to the way in which be a shared responsibility with the EU and with Norway, fishing will be allowed in future years. But successful given the inconvenient tendency of fish not to know changes can be achieved only by the devolved when they are crossing a boundary. In the earlier years Administrations working closely together. The Bill of the common fisheries policy, that issue was badly creates a common approach, preserving the right of mishandled and stocks were grievously damaged, with UK vessels and any licensed foreign vessels to fish decisions taken that rode roughshod over scientific across our four zones in United Kingdom waters. The advice. That must not happen again, and I recognise Bill sets out detailed objectives, and I am pleased, like that it is one of the aims of the Government in this others, to see a climate change objective in there as legislation, which I welcome. We must not slip back well. It requires joint fisheries statements, fisheries into that period where the politics of allocating shared management plans and reports to be laid and reviewed. stocks gained over the science. Neither, again, should I will turn directly to the practice of discarding. we take an all-or-nothing approach. Only two weeks ago we had a debate on the EU Select The third element is the trade in fish and fish Committee’s reports on the EU fisheries landing products. Over the 47 years that we have been in the obligation, in which the Minister acknowledged that EU, we have benefited, of course, from zero tariffs, the landing of undersized fish had increased, but not zero quotas and common phytosanitary rules. They by the amount that was anticipated. The National have covered our exports and our imports of fish and Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations is pleased to fish products, both wild and farmed. Those exports see in the Government’s proposals a discard prevention have grown exponentially during that period. They are charge scheme, recognising the importance of reducing pretty substantial now, as they were not when all this discards. It will give a truer picture and truer data of started. That gives the possible outcome on access to the fish stocks that are collected and whether they are fisheries markets great importance, and we should not landed in a proper way rather than just thrown over delude ourselves that, if we acted in a way that led to the side. We need to know about the fish stocks’ the loss of those continental markets, we would be long-term ability to reproduce. able to replace them quite easily, because that is not I take this opportunity to put on record the valuable the nature of this highly perishable product. work done by the then Fisheries Minister, Richard On devolution, I will merely say that every aspect of Benyon, when he introduced the fisheries landing scheme. our new fisheries policy will directly or indirectly Further improvements have been made in this Bill. involve the devolved Administrations, so it will be Last year Mr Benyon was asked to review the highly important to build them from the outset into the protected marine areas, which I think will add substance negotiating and implementing process—all the more once we come to debate this in Committee. 2179 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2180

In becoming an independent coastal state, the United Lord, Lord Hannay, rightly pointed out that there are Kingdom will have the power to set catch limits for all big shares of quota at stake for other EU states and a vessels. Foreign boats wishing to fish in UK waters big share of markets for us. We need to watch that the will have to follow UK rules, abide by catch limits set needs of sustainable fisheries do not get traded away and, I hope, be required to have remote electronic for other trade-deal requirements monitoring equipment on those vessels. I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify this when he The Bill is an unprecedented opportunity to responds. demonstrate that, in totally rethinking how we manage our fisheries, we can ensure a sustainable future for the Clause 44 creates new measures to help the Marine marine environment, the fishing industry and coastal Management Organisation to protect marine ecosystems. communities, as the Minister said. Current fisheries Back in 2008, a POSTnote commented that, at that policy, of course, is in no way sustainable. Government stage, no UK body had the responsibility of creating assessments have shown that we are not on track to new marine conservation zones; nor were targets set meet the commitment to reach good environmental for the area to be covered at that time. In this Bill, status and healthy seas by 2020. That is particularly so amendments to the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 for fish stocks, shellfish, birds and benthic habitats. confer powers to make by-laws and orders relating to Last year, only 59% of UK fish stocks were fished at the exploitation of sea fisheries resources. I ask the or below sustainable levels, down a whole 10% on the Minister: will that include the awful practice that has previous year. North Sea cod stocks have declined to gone on for many years of bottom-trawling, which has critical levels, due to lax setting of quotas and failure devastated parts of the seabed? I also ask the Minister: to manage effectively. North Sea cod has lost its if data is available for all areas around our coasts, are Marine Stewardship Council certification, with an those shores fully mapped? If so, how far out to sea impact on valuable market share. This is bad not only does such mapping information go? In looking at the for the fish and the environment but for fishers and 12-mile limit, have the Government considered, with fishing communities. regard to the seabed and marine conservation, whether it should be regarded in a similar way to the way we The UK Government are currently challenging the have planning on land? It is all too easy to forget what global community to increase protection of the world’s is under the sea because we do not see it, whereas we oceans to 30% by 2030. If we are to do that without see it on land. being laughed at, we need to demonstrate world-leading The Bill is of great importance. Those involved in fisheries management and to measure this by recovery catching fish work in rough seas and in some of the of nature and recovery of stocks. The Bill is a welcome most demanding circumstances. Indeed, my noble friend improvement on the Bill in the previous 2017-19 Session, said that, tragically, seven of them lost their lives last but it is very much a framework Bill, whose year. The fish caught and returned to UK shores bring implementation raises many questions. The noble Lord, additional jobs to local communities and provide us Lord Hannay, called it a picture frame without a with good nutritious food. While, as has been said, picture and I very much appreciate that analogy. I most of the fish caught by UK fishermen is actually hope the Minister can give us some assurances about exported to the European Union and other areas and painting in the picture frame at the end of this debate, the proportion consumed in the UK is very low, I look and I shall raise some of the issues on which I think to the Bill to enable us, through extra quotas, to eat further answers are needed. more of the fish that we catch in this country than has I welcome the new climate-change objective in the been possible in the past, and that the fish landed will Bill. We must ensure that it is about not just low-carbon be sold and consumed directly through UK markets. fishing technology but the importance of recovering Fishermen will be looking to the Bill to bring certainty fish populations and restoring marine habitats, such for their future. Catches taken must be decided on the as kelp forests, deep sediments and coastal seagrass best scientific data available, stocks protected and meadows, as effective natural solutions to tackling the fishing licences granted on actual known stocks, rather twin emergencies of climate change and biodiversity than on historic agreements. together. ln our desire to see healthy seas around our shores and more widely, we must not forget the continuing My second anxiety concerns future trade deals with need to tackle plastic waste. Whether we are fishermen, the EU and other states, where the Government are individual recreational fishers or simply people who saying that fisheries negotiation will be a separate care about our oceans, the Bill is surely a step in the annual bilateral agreement. I thoroughly endorse that right direction. There will be much to do but I welcome approach: we must avoid the overall UK-EU negotiation and support it. sliding into a link between access to UK waters for the EU states and other states and access to EU markets for us. 4.55 pm The Bill is very much a framework Bill, leaving a lot Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab): My Lords, this to the devolved Administrations and secondary legislation. is a really historic Bill. For the first time in 50 years, we I urge the Minister to let us see the secondary legislation can design our own fisheries policy; it will be one of in draft before it is laid or, even better, produce the few silver linings of Brexit, if we get it right. It will co-management arrangements involving all key be a real test of the Government’s approach to the stakeholders to ensure that the painting in of the UK-EU negotiation. There will be lots of pushing and picture that secondary legislation will represent suits shoving between now and December, and the noble all stakeholders. 2181 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2182

[BARONESS YOUNG OF OLD SCONE] of inspections at sea, which are vital, has stayed completely Many of the objectives listed at the beginning flat. Can the Minister tell us the exact scale of additional of the Bill are to be applauded: the sustainability resources for monitoring and enforcing under the new objective, the precautionary principle, an approach arrangements, at least in England, if he cannot speak that involves ecosystems, the climate change objective for the devolved Administrations? and the importance of science and evidence-based The major feature of the Bill is that it is a high-level decisions. However, somewhere in the mix we need a framework—the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, legal duty on relevant public authorities to achieve about it being a picture frame with no picture is rather these objectives and be accountable by publishing good. There are lots of stages that will follow the Bill specific regular reports on their achievement of the and many a slip between cup and lip. The devolved objectives, not just on their activities. Administrations will be in the driving seat in many The Conservative manifesto promised cases and we need to see what proposals they will “a legal commitment to fish sustainably”, bring forward to paint this picture. The negotiation of but in the Bill there are no legally binding targets or a joint fisheries statement will, I suspect, be fraught timeframes for bringing unsustainable fisheries stocks and there is no guarantee that the joint fisheries policy to sustainable levels. I am sure the Minister will say statement will achieve the objectives outlined in the that there will be fisheries management plans, but Bill or by when. there is nothing in the Bill to say when these plans will The national authorities have a “get out of jail free” be made, what they will cover and when the actions card. The Bill specifies that they can disregard the outlined in them will be achieved. I will talk about that policy statement where evidence changes. That might in a moment. be regarded as admirable flexibility but it risks meaning There needs to be a legal commitment in the Bill that the fisheries objective will take priority, especially not to fish above independent, scientifically recommended, where the interests of the UK fishing industry are at sustainable levels. Even the rotten old common fisheries stake. It can shout at the expense of fish stocks and policy set catch limits in article 2 to be within maximum biodiversity, which of course cannot shout. sustainable yield by 2020. In the Bill we simply have an Fisheries management plans will be important and aspirational objective to achieve a healthy biomass of much will hang on them, but they are optional. The stocks, a rather woolly objective that is neither legally only requirement on authorities in the legislation is to enforceable nor subject to any deadline, to be taken issue a statement explaining how they intend to use forward by way of a policy statement that the Bill says fisheries management plans. I suspect they will not can be disregarded in a wide variety of circumstances. come out with a statement saying that they do not All that represents a potential regression in environmental think they will use fisheries management plans much. standards. However, they could, given the way the Bill is framed. There is also no firm commitment to ensure that There must be a legal requirement for authorities to the stocks we share with other countries are managed introduce fisheries management plans where stocks sustainably. The Bill needs to set an objective for the are currently fished above sustainable levels or for Secretary of State in his or her negotiations with the data-deficient stocks. There are no timescales for laying EU and other countries to be directed by clear out or achieving the plans. We need statutory timescales. sustainability criteria, including a commitment to agree National authorities have a similar “get out of jail catch limits in line with scientific advice. We need to free” card on fisheries management plans, which could learn from past situations such as the interminable mean caving into socioeconomic pressures at the expense disputes over mackerel between the European Union, of environmental protection. Norway, Iceland and the Faroes, which resulted in I started off thinking that this was rather a good 35% overfishing and loss of MSC status for that catch. Bill but, having thought about it for some time, the We share over 100 stocks with the European Union, so fact that it leaves so much unanswered is worrying. It an effective, evidence-based process is important. needs to be a tougher framework and I hope the We used to call those the mackerel wars. I turn now Minister can assure us that the Government’s manifesto to other potential wars. I regret that the noble Lord, commitment to sustainable fishing can truly be guaranteed Lord West of Spithead, is not in his place—I am sure through the mechanisms outlined in the Bill, especially he would have relished this. We need to think about where the devolved Administrations are concerned. monitoring and enforcement of our new approach, We need that to work for the benefit of fish ecosystems, which the Minister touched on in his introduction. I the fishing industry and coastal and fishing communities. hope the cod wars will not return; the circumstances are different now that territorial waters have been 5.06 pm delineated, but can the Minister say exactly what resources—by way of ships, technological kit and Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB): My Lords, I support monitoring offices—the Government envisage either the Bill for many of the reasons already given and will to have been recently provided or to be provided in not repeat them. However, there is one point for which future? I thank the Minister: the evident hard work undertaken In his response to the committee report of the by his department in seeking co-operation with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on the landing obligation devolved Governments in the drafting and framework six months on, the Minister of State cited some interesting of the Bill. figures on Marine Management Organisation inspections There are three matters, however, on which I should annually since 2016. Inspections of onshore vessels like briefly to touch. First, as reflected in the debates and premises have greatly increased, but the number on the withdrawal agreement Act, it is essential that 2183 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2184 the devolved Administrations are involved in a meaningful talks with the EU, Ministers will keep in mind that and systematic way in the negotiations. I am sure, in famous definition of a cynic in one of Oscar Wilde’s the light of the assurances given by Ministers then, plays: that this will happen. However, it will be important to “A man who knows the price of everything and the value of check from time to time that it is happening. It would nothing.” not be good for the future of the union if we went into It is indeed the case that the intrinsic value to the negotiations when there was not the greatest possible United Kingdom of these small but indomitable degree of consensus between the devolved nations, communities can never be assessed simply on a given their responsibilities proposed under the Bill. spreadsheet. Secondly, it is important that every attempt is made The Bill we are debating today sets out a new to reach a consensus on the position that the United framework for managing our fisheries in a sustainable Kingdom Government will take on their negotiations way as the UK emerges as an independent coastal with the European Union and any other states or state after over 40 years of being inside the EU’s organisations. It would be a serious matter if the common fisheries policy. It also details welcome plans Secretary of State was put in a position where he had for how the UK will take into account the impact of to exercise the powers under Clause 23 to force the climate change on the health of the ocean and indeed devolved Administrations to alter their policies, unless our entire planet. The Scottish Government are unlikely every possible attempt had been made to reach a to show a great deal of appreciation, but it must be common negotiating position. drawn to their attention that the Bill also gives important Thirdly—apointmadebythenobleLord,LordHannay, new powers to the devolved Administrations to help and the noble Baroness Lady Young, whom it is a conserve and enhance the marine environment, and privilege to follow—the Bill is lacking much detail, conservation is of course enormously important. particularly regarding how the policies are to be agreed When I first spoke on this subject some three years between the various Governments and legislatures. It ago, I acknowledged that some compromises might would be far better, sooner rather than later, to spell have to be made in the interests of the fishing industry’s out the mechanisms that are intended to be deployed sizeable export trade—70% of the catch goes to European to try to reach consensus, to say what is to happen if markets. However, it is unfortunate that some EU there is not consensus, and to do everything possible to countries seem to want the UK to concede that their reach common policies. Furthermore, it may well be access to our fishing grounds should remain very that the fisheries sector and the way it emerges from much as it is at present. Setting out their template for the frameworks will have an effect on the internal talks, their negotiator, Michel Barnier, has said that he market. Therefore, I suggest that it is important that wants to uphold EU fishing activities and that any we address the issue now and see what the picture is, agreement should rather than leave it until months or years later. “build on existing reciprocal access conditions.” No doubt many of these issues will require discussion This clearly cannot be the case, as the Bill removes the in Committee but it is important that they are grappled EU’s automatic right to fish in our waters. It is to be with now, because they go to the maintenance and hoped that the Government will stick to their commitment strength of the union. for annual negotiations to be held, resulting in improved quotas for our boats and the licensing of access for 5.10 pm foreign fishing vessels to the United Kingdom. These would be based not on historic quotas but on scientific Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con): My Lords, it is data about sustainable catch levels. It is a system refreshing and a great pleasure to follow a distinguished strongly supporting conservation, which has already former Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, who been put into practice by Norway, Iceland and the has a reputation for justice and fairness. I hope that Faroes. At the same time, the Government have to the Minister will consider his wise words with care. bear in mind, during the talks, that any barriers and There is no doubt that the negotiations between the tariffs erected because of UK divergence from EU Government and the European Union to secure the regulations and standards would be bad news for future of the United Kingdom’s fishing industry after those who need to get their fish and other seafood we leave the common fisheries policy are one of the produce swiftly to the available markets. trickiest and most challenging aspects of the trade There is also the problem that the EU is insisting talks now beginning. They will require cool heads all that negotiations should be inextricably linked to the round and, on the Government’s part, a steely wider trade talks. The Government are adamant that commitment not to let down our fishing communities. this will not be the case, and rightly, in my view. We are Hopes and aspirations in this iconic industry are high, dealing with a situation on which an expression has from Peterhead to Cornwall, and what a blow it would been made by no less a person than Barrie Deas. He be if they were dashed by some financial trade-off. issued a statement of powerful wording, which he sent That is not to mention the political gift such a perception to me this morning. He said: would be to some, who would seek to ruthlessly exploit “We have a once-in-a-generation opportunity to secure a it to further damage the union, as their eventual aim is better deal for the UK fishing industry and revive coastal communities to destroy it altogether. across the country. The Government must not backdown on their In stark economic terms, the UK fishing industry promises to UK fishermen. If it does, many of the objectives that may be responsible only for around 1% of GDP but it the Fisheries Bill is aiming to achieve will be impossible”. has an emotional hold on the hearts of this island He is chief executive of the National Federation of nation. In this respect, I hope that during the forthcoming Fishermen’s Organisations. 2185 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2186

[LORD SELKIRK OF DOUGLAS] critical to the future continued regeneration of the Speaking previously, I stressed the totemic nature ports I have referred to, but our fishing industry of the United Kingdom’s fishing industry and spoke remains some way off a final agreement in terms of of the sheer spirit and bravery shown over the years by resolving the imbalances in fishing quota allocations, those who work at sea, as well as the dangers faced. As most notably from an Irish Sea perspective. an example, at Eyemouth, down the coast from where We also want to see the ending of the annual I live, a starkly poignant granite memorial depicting a reallocation of quota from UK fishermen, especially broken mast commemorates that Black Friday when, those from Northern Ireland, in favour of their colleagues on 14 October 1881, a terrible storm took the lives in the south of Ireland under the so-called Hague of 189 men from the port and left 267 children without Preference. Yesterday evening I had an opportunity to their fathers. talk to the Minister and I mentioned the voisinage Last week, the Prime Minister chose to set out the agreement that was originally a gentlemen’s agreement Government’s vision of its post-Brexit future economic between the old Northern Ireland Parliament and the relationship with the EU amid the splendour of the Government in Dublin. It enabled fishermen from Painted Hall of the Old Royal Naval College in County Down to fish in Dundalk Bay but, because of Greenwich. He spoke of the United Kingdom being a Supreme Court judgment in Dublin in 2016, it had “on the slipway”, recalled our “seafaring ancestors” to be suspended. The Irish Government have since put and claimed we are now embarking “on a great voyage”. the voisinage agreement into legislation. I say this to We must hope that all those who ply their trade in our the Minister: we do not want that agreement dismantled historic fishing communities around the United Kingdom in any way, because good relations have now been will still share that same spirit of optimism and of new resumed and fishermen are continuing to ply the Irish beginnings once the trade talks with our European Sea in pursuit of their best endeavours. Now, with a neighbours have concluded. future Irish Government who it is hoped should be in place in the next couple of weeks, I hope that the good relationship with the previous Minister will continue 5.17 pm with the noble Lord the Minister. Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl): My Weshould recall that securing a new fisheries agreement Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord between the UK and EU is not about inventing the Selkirk, and my contribution will do so from a Northern wheel. Other independent European coastal states, Ireland perspective. I live in County Down, and three most notably Norway, have fisheries agreements with principal ports associated with the sea fish sector are the EU. Last week, we heard about the EU’s ambition in County Down: Portavogie, Ardglass and Kilkeel. for the new fisheries agreement with the UK. It includes Two of those, Ardglass and Kilkeel, are among the an aspiration for a more detailed agreement than the top UK ports. In a Northern Ireland Assembly report Norway-EU agreement. Given the huge implications of 2015, which is the last known record, the value to that the UK-EU fisheries agreement will have for the the local economy of the fish landed was £20.8 million. success of this Bill, it would be useful to learn what the Yesterday evening, I had an opportunity to talk to UK has in mind. the Minister about issues that appertain to the sea fishing sector in Northern Ireland. I am reminded by Reference has already been made to the previous our fishermen and their representatives of a phrase incarnation of the Fisheries Bill, which was addressed that has been used throughout this process, which in late 2018 in the other place, and to a House of neatly sums up the position that the fishing industry Lords EU Committee report that provided the basis finds itself in today. That is: nothing is agreed until for this legislation. One of the biggest changes is that everything is agreed. Like noble Lords who spoke it delivers on the Government’s manifesto aim to earlier, I agree that this Bill is a framework and that manage our fisheries at their maximum sustainable much has to be coloured in with what the devolved yield levels under a wider ecosystem-based approach Administrations come up with, and with what happens to fisheries management. This is obviously very important, in the negotiations between the UK Government and and the application of MSY levels to fisheries management the European Union. So, with the UK’sformal departure has been the subject of extensive debate since they from the EU, the Fisheries Bill we are discussing today were adopted by the EU at the World Summit on is an important stepping stone in the process. Sustainable Development in Johannesburg in 2002. For some, MSY is a conceptual theory that has little As we have been reminded by Boris Johnson, his applicability to an ocean environment that is subject predecessor and others, the UK will be an independent to constant change—change that has been accelerated coastal state and as such we should be able to unleash by climatic change. So it is important that the Bill is the potential of the fishing industry. For 47 years it shaped in a way that allows it to evolve and does not was subjected to the management of the common provide for unachievably hard MSY targets. fisheries policy, which some within the fishing industry believe was mismanagement. We are told that the Bill Another feature that local fishermen have raised will deliver a legal guarantee that the UK will leave the with me is a fairer share of fishing opportunities. They common fisheries policy at the end of the transition suggest that they would like to see, as part of the period in December 2020. Nevertheless, the reality is management framework outlined in the Bill, a quota that, before the potential referred to by the Government allocation system that is appropriate for Northern can be realised, the UK and the EU have to use their Ireland. What is suggested for England might not “best endeavours” to agree a new fisheries relationship necessarily work in Northern Ireland. Fishermen in by the middle of this year. This agreement will be Northern Ireland should not be penalised, because 2187 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2188 they have taken all the—let us say—outstanding resilience became Lord Chief Justice, a senior Law Lord and a measures over the last number of years and have been very distinguished judge. I did not know it at the time, able to deal with discards, by-catches and the landing but he had advised the Attorney-General that none of obligation. They introduced and got patented some these would succeed; in other words, that in every case, areas of gear changes, which it would be useful for the the defence would fail. In pursuance of his policies in Minister to have a look at. relation to the appointment of the judiciary, shortly While the fishing industry welcomes Prime Minister after that the Lord Chancellor appointed Tom Bingham Johnson’s commitment that there will be no checks on as a judge, and therefore he was no longer available to the trade of seafood and other products from GB to defend the cases. I was appointed to defend these cases Northern Ireland, it looks forward to hearing how the and, sure enough, Lord Bingham’sprophecy was fulfilled Government will deliver on that commitment—in to the letter. I was glad afterwards to know that he had particular with seafood brought to Northern Ireland advised that before I had begun at all. for primary processing before being returned in its One of the last of the cases was an extraordinary entirety to GB. case about the common fisheries policy’s application Last night I raised with the Minister the issue of to the waters around the Isle of Man. It showed me allowing non-EEA fishermen to continue to work on that the provisions of the common fisheries policy did County Down boats. In fact, they work on other boats not come naturally to the Government of the United throughout the fishing industry in the UK. So far, in Kingdom as something to be observed in every detail. spite of our best endeavours, the Home Office has not As time has gone on under that policy, that hesitation come forward with a legal formula to enable them to has been demonstrated as growing. Anyhow, we are to continue to do this work. In many instances, our local come out of the common fisheries policy soon and the fishing industry could face tie-up without the expertise question is: what will replace it? As has been said, that of these people. The Northern Ireland fishing industry is really what makes the picture in this Bill. Until we faces a compromised position, because back in 2016 know that, it is very difficult to know exactly what will the Irish Government provided a legal framework to happen. Of course, it is right to be prepared for what enable these non-EEA crew to fish in Irish waters. will happen, whatever it be, and we need a structure to They can move from one Irish-registered vessel to replace the common fisheries policy. another, so our local fishing industry in County Down, I agree with a good deal of what has been said which relies largely on fishing in the Irish Sea, feels already about the law, and I will not repeat it. I want to compromised. say one thing on what the noble Baroness said about I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments legal enforcement of the policy statements mentioned in response to the issues I have raised and to participating at the beginning. I rather think it is implied that the in Committee on the Floor of the House. I hope that policies to be adopted are to be in accordance with the Bill will lead to the continued regeneration of these objectives. Precise legal provisions may not be coastal communities. Other noble Lords have mentioned needed to require that, but I certainly think it is the issues raised by environmental organisations about implied at present. the need for greater sustainability and reflection of climate change. While that is referred to in the Clause 12 appears to require that fishing in the Bill, they want to see consideration given to binding territory of the United Kingdom should require a commitments not to fish above independent, scientifically licence. It is a very reasonable requirement for every recommended sustainable levels. To allow an industry fishing boat to have a licence. But the clause specifies such as fishing to grow, develop and nurture, we have that not only will fishing boats be required to hold a to adopt a balanced approach to all this. licence but that they must be in accordance with international law and international agreements to which In conclusion, I look forward to working with the the UK is a party. I can see the force of that, but I do Minister and noble Lords across the House to develop not see how that kind of thing would be decided in a an enhanced Bill that will bring benefit to fishermen, discussion on the high seas. Take the territorial waters particularly those I know in County Down fishing of the North Sea: the enforcing boat might come villages. along and the skipper of the fishing boat could say, “I’m here for a purpose recognised by international 5.28 pm law.” Can you imagine how that would be resolved? Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, I Alternatively, they might say, “I’m here by virtue of an begin by associating myself with what the Minister agreement or arrangement to which the United Kingdom said about the dangers encountered by those who go is a party.” I do not know how well equipped the to sea, especially those who go fishing. In my connection fisheries protection vessels will be, but I imagine that with Trinity House, I come across some of these from they may be hard put to test that kind of thing. I time to time. would have thought it might be wiser to require that, if a boat is coming on that account, it gets a licence My first connection with the common fisheries before it comes. I am sure it would be much easier for policy was shortly after I became Lord Advocate in the enforcing authority to look at a licence than to try 1979, when a number of cases were brought by the to find out what international law was defending the Commission against the decisions of the previous incoming fishing boat. Government. In accordance with the proper practice, the new Government found themselves defending these Although not dealt with in this Bill, the arrangements decisions. The decisions had been referred to one of for selling the products of the sea to Europe are the leading silks of the day,Tom Bingham, who ultimately extremely important. That is certainly true in some 2189 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2190

[LORD MACKAY OF CLASHFERN] our maritime resources towards the long-term health parts of Scotland, particularly the north-west, where I of our fisheries and the communities that depend on happen to know the ports of Kinlochbervie and Lochinver, them. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Young, which lie on each side of the distinction between my noted, fisheries monitoring and enforcement will still title and that of my noble friend, the chief of my clan. be key to the exercise of our sovereign control and to Lochinver and Kinlochbervie are both quite small, achieving the bold ambitions set out in this legislation. but they attract a great deal of seafood, which is sent What additional investment do the Government intend by road to many parts of Europe. These small to make? communities very much depend upon that. Therefore, As many of your Lordships will be aware—because the last thing I would like to see is that kind of I have mentioned it—2020 marks the 400th anniversary arrangement being damaged in the result. I mention of the sailing of the “Mayflower” from Plymouth, a that not as part of the Bill, but as part of the negotiations, commemoration of which I am a patron. This momentous which will be, without any doubt, difficult to conclude voyage set sail from Devon because of the sophistication satisfactorily. One can see the desire of the European of local fishermen who ventured for months, from nations to get what they can out of it, and we must be small ports such as Teignmouth and Kenton, over the careful about that. vast north Atlantic, to catch and salt cod in enormous I strongly support what was said by the noble and quantities. It was much due to the efforts of these learned Lord, Lord Thomas, about the involvement of modest West Country folk, who established seasonal the devolved Administrations. Without getting into encampments on the east coast of North America, too much detail, I have to say that that could be pretty that we achieved the early English settlement of difficult if the fundamental policy of the devolved those distant shores. The trading relationships they Administration is not in accordance with the present operated were complex and cross-border, combining situation. One can see the difficulty of that, and I hope fishermen from Devon, fish from the Grand Banks of that what my noble friend said in opening will be true: Newfoundland, salt from the Bay of Biscay, wine that the co-operation of the devolved Administrations from Bordeaux and consumers on the coasts of the in working out the detail of this will be forthcoming Mediterranean. As the Government head into trade and helpful. negotiations with Europe and the United States, I hope that they will take lessons from this history, not 5.37 pm least the need to work closely with our neighbours and to care for our fish stocks. Earl of Devon (CB): My Lords, I am not a fisheries expert; other than sporting a beard worthy of Captain With respect to these negotiations, as the noble Haddock and managing medieval manorial interests Baroness, Lady Ritchie, noted, the political declaration on the foreshore of the River Exe, I am a novice. I am committed the UK and the EU to use their best thus grateful to the Minister for his introduction and endeavours not only to conclude but to ratify a new to many other noble Lords for their expertise. fisheries agreement by 1 July 2020. This seems a little ambitious. Can the Minister describe the progress of My law firm represents clients with commercial sea those negotiations? fishing interests and I know a number of local inshore fishermen in and around the Exe. I have been able to As to the new fisheries objectives, the bycatch objective discuss this legislation with them. While happy to be is laudable. Minimising wastage is essential to the free of the common fisheries policy, and the havoc it sustainability of our fisheries. In pursuing this objective, wreaked upon our fishing industry and our marine we must take account of the peculiarly mixed nature environment, their consensus is apprehension that their of certain UK fish stocks, which makes for a higher remaining livelihoods and coastal way of life may be rate of bycatch compared with others. We must be sold down the river in forthcoming trade negotiations. cautiousaboutburdeningUKvesselswithwell-intentioned The industry is also nervous that departure from the objectives that render them uncompetitive. We must CFP will result in new systems that will cause uncertainty also ensure that the fisheries management plans not and delays. It seeks assurances that investments made only become compulsory but are localised in their in equipment and quota will not be undermined by requirements. What may be good for the North Sea administrative delays. Banks are currently reluctant to fleet may not be good for the south-west, where conditions lend to fishing enterprises, and continued uncertainty are so different. How will the Government ensure, will only make this worse. post CFP,that quota is allocated more smartly,providing benefit to the fish and the fishers? As a Devonian, I am aware of the importance of the fishing industry to the local, regional and national I note that the recent debate on the EU fisheries economy. Devon is proud to host a large proportion of landing obligation concluded that compliance with England’s fishing fleet, and in Brixham it has England’s the discard ban has been impossible to evaluate, through largest fish market by value—approximately £40 million a lack of data. The consensus in favour of remote per annum. electronic monitoring in UK waters is shared by fishermen, Fishing has been core to the county’s economy for but they are concerned that this must apply to all centuries. My home was built by an admiral of the vessels fishing in UK waters, not just those landing in Western Fleet during the Hundred Years’ War. Much UK ports. A level playing field is essential. of his time was spent defending English waters from The UK is a champion in the area of fisheries marauding vessels from Brittany and Iberia. I hope that technology. At the universities of Plymouth, Falmouth this will not be a task for the Earl of Devon in future, and Exeter, the south-west boasts world leaders in and that we can settle peacefully the fair allocation of marine and environmental engineering and sciences. 2191 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2192

How will the Government harness that expertise to waters when, on joining the EEC in 1973, free access ensure that we accelerate productivity, increase to our surrounding waters was granted to the other sustainability and build the competitive advantage of European nations. The situation was worsened by the our fishing fleet? Also, what plans do the Government severe contemporaneous decline in fish stocks on account have to develop skills in fishing and in the onshore of the overfishing. Now, in the words of our Prime processing of fish for the food industry? Minister,Boris Johnson, Britain will “take back control” The climate change objective is an important addition. and have full jurisdiction over its “spectacular marine Given our location at the end of the Gulf Stream, UK wealth”. He has asserted that: fisheries will be impacted more than most by rising sea “We will make sure we don’t trade away Britain’s fishing rights temperatures. Does the Minister have data on the carbon as they were traded away… in the early 1970s.” footprint of the UK’sfishing fleet, and do the Government The Prime Minister has given voice to a common have specific targets to address it? Is the Minister sentiment that has been expressed enthusiastically by aware that offshore fishing vessels from Brixham are fishermen and their representatives. When it becomes currently forced to steam all the way up the channel to independent of the European Union at the end of the Holland for all but the most basic maintenance, because transition period, Britain will be surrounded by an there is no facility in the entire south-west peninsula exclusive economic zone—an EEZ—over which it intends with the capacity for such work? It surprises me that to assert its fishing rights. The zone will extend as far after more than 500 years of offshore fishing, we have as 200 miles from our coastline, when it is not constrained lost the ability to repair our own fleet. The Minister by the proximity of an adjacent coastal nation. In that will be aware of recent progress towards reopening the case, a median line will separate the British zone from shipyard at Appledore. Are the Government able to that of the neighbouring nation. support that endeavour and reverse this terrible decline in local shipyard services? The concept of an exclusive economic zone, which was established to protect the fishing rights of Iceland, Finally,can the Minister acknowledge the importance now redounds to Britain’s advantage. It is enshrined in of the continental market for UK-caught fish? The the United Nations Convention on the Law of the vast majority of the fish landed in Devon are sold Sea. Geography has endowed Britain with an exorbitantly across the channel. The Brixham market uses state-of- large zone in comparison to the zones of other European the-art online auction technology to ensure the fastest fishing nations such as France, Germany,the Netherlands, and most efficient sale of the daily catch. Given the Belgium and Denmark, whose EEZs are limited by the inherent perishability of fish, any delay in transportation median lines. will impact sales dramatically, and any increase in border checks will destroy this important regional The outrage at Britain’s pre-emption of fishing industry. I realise that Mr Gove thinks a degree of areas to which other nations have traditionally had cross-border friction is a price worth paying. However, access is now palpable. It threatens to have a detrimental there is no point in securing the right to fish our own effect on the forthcoming trade negotiations. Already, waters only to destroy our ability to sell the fish that the granting of a European passport to our financial we catch; otherwise, it will be fish fingers for tea, for services sector has become conditional upon our granting everyone, every day. fishing rights to other European nations. However, any concessions to those nations are liable to enrage British fishermen, who are looking forward to greatly 5.45 pm increased fishing quotas. Viscount Hanworth (Lab): My Lords, the Fisheries There is also a potential for conflict among the Bill has huge potential to cause trouble among the nations of Britain over the control of fishing rights. nations of the United Kingdom and with our European The Fisheries Bill declares that the management of neighbours. What is written on the face of the Bill is, fisheries is a matter that is devolved to the regions of in the main, unexceptional. Indeed, the environmental the United Kingdom. Hitherto, a consistent UK-wide precepts are laudable. In the words of a letter from the approach to fisheries has been maintained because all Minister, the Bill will be a major step forward in the the fisheries administrations have been required to Government’s vision comply with European law, which has imposed the “to build a sustainable fishing industry with healthy seas”. common fisheries policy. In consequence of our leaving We will be moving away from a common European the European Union, that constraint will no longer fishing policy that has been vitiated by the competitive apply. bidding among the European fishing nations for quotas Clause 18 of the Fisheries Bill of Session 2017-19, that determine their allowable catches. The quotas which has become Clause 23 of the current Bill, gives have invariably exceeded the levels recommended by the Secretary of State the power to determine the scientists; the common understanding is that they quantity of fish that may be caught by British boats. have been consistently breached and widely ignored. Although the Secretary of State must consult with the Even when the quotas have been observed, the practice devolved Administrations in determining this quantity, of discarding fish that are undersized or in excess of the UK Government views the determination of fishing species-specific limits has subverted policies aimed at opportunities as a reserved function. However, both conserving stocks. the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government The competitive animosity of the nations bidding have disagreed strongly with this. Given the spirit of for quotas has been fuelled by the grievances that the disagreement and grievance against Westminster that British brought to the negotiations. The British fishermen prevails among Members of the Scottish Parliament, were still smarting from their exclusion from Icelandic one can imagine that this will become a major point of 2193 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2194

[VISCOUNT HANWORTH] understandable that fishing communities are nervous contention. Scottish parliamentarians will be backed of the same thing happening again as we exit. That is by a powerful fishermen’s lobby, which will point to whythe National Federation of Fishermen’sOrganisations the fact that over 60% of the UK catch is landed by welcomed the Prime Minister’s speech on 3 February, the Scottish fishing fleet. in which he reiterated his commitment that: More must now be said about the attitudes of “There would be annual negotiations with the EU, using the fishermen and their organisations. It is clear that the latest scientific data, ensuring British fishing grounds are first and fishermen expect there to be large increases in the foremost for British boats.” allowable catch. In a briefing from the Scottish Fishermen’s This is a promise that must be kept—a promise that Federation, we are told that it expects to see an immediate has particular significance for Scotland. and significant uplift in the quantity of fish available to its fleets. It expects, moreover, that this will be Scottish boats in 2018 were responsible for 64% by followed by further year-on-year gains. Although the volume and 58% by value of all UK landings. While fishermen and their representatives tend nowadays to fishing makes a relatively small contribution to our pay lip-service to the nostrums of conservation, their overall GDP, it is disproportionately important for words and deeds show that in practice they are likely often fragile coastal communities. For example, fishing to resist any resulting restrictions on their activities. In is a significant part of the local economies of the particular, they bridle at the injunction that fishing Western Isles and Shetland. According to the Scottish opportunities should be limited by the maximum Fishermen’sFederation, more fish are landed in Shetland sustainable yield, the MSY,of fish stocks. The MSY is alone than in the whole of England, Wales and Northern the maximum rate at which the fish can replace themselves Ireland. Also, Scottish towns such as Peterhead—which under conditions of human predation or harvesting. invested £45 million to create one of the largest and If the harvest exceeds the MSY for any length of time most modern fish markets in Europe—are heavily then the fish will be destined for extinction. reliant on fishing. The objective of fishing at the MSY was incorporated Let us not forget the political significance of fishing into the rules of the European common fisheries policy. for the union. A majority of Scots need convincing However, certain exceptions have been allowed. One about the benefits of leaving the EU, and fishing is an of the principal documents states that, if fishing at the area where the potential benefits are perhaps most MSY would imply very large annual reductions of immediately apparent and where the UK Government fishing opportunities that seriously jeopardise the social can demonstrate they are delivering for Scotland. and economic sustainability of the fleets involved, The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation has described then a delay in reaching that objective would be acceptable. the move to independent coastal status as offering a This is profoundly illogical. Any such allowance can “sea of opportunity”, and it is hard to disagree. As a have arisen only as a consequence of fraught negotiations. member of the EU, the UK was allocated around 40% Fishing above the MSY will jeopardise the survival of of total allowable catch in UK waters. For the purposes the fish and of the industry. Attempting to fish at the of comparison, the equivalent figure for Norway is MSY is also dangerous because of the likelihood of around 85% and for Iceland 95%. Moreover, EU exceeding that level inadvertently. quotas are based on historical fishing patterns established Nevertheless, a recent briefing from the National nearly 30 years ago. They take no account, for example, Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations has militated of the impact of climate change, which has seen stocks against the imposition of any constraint based on the of fish such as cod, hake and tuna moving further MSY. It seeks the allowances that are recorded by the north. European common fisheries policy. It is clear that, if they are to achieve some of the more reasonable It is sobering to consider the combined impact of objectives of the Fisheries Bill, the Government will the CFP on a place such as the Western Isles since the have to stand firm against the onslaughts of numerous UK joined the EU: the number of vessels has reduced parties. by one-fifth; the number of fishermen has fallen by nearly one-third. So, Western Isles fishermen are already looking to secure fresh opportunities. To take one 5.52 pm small example,seasonal bluefin tuna are found increasingly Lord Dunlop (Con): My Lords, it is a pleasure to in UK waters—and it is a valuable fish. So, the Western follow the noble Viscount and to support the Bill, Isles see an opportunity to develop its own rod and which enables the UK to be, in the Prime Minister’s line fishery,strengthening its tourist offering and increasing words, local economic resilience. “an independent coastal state from the end of this year, controlling Currently there is no UK quota for tuna and the our own waters”. UK, as an EU member, has not had its own seat at the While the Bill is not directly about the negotiations to International Commission for the Conservation of come with the EU, it provides the legal framework for Atlantic Tunas. The prize in prospect is clear: to the future of fisheries management and is therefore increase the quota opportunities and to ensure that inextricably linked. they are spread more widely and fairly, playing a part I want to focus my remarks on the importance of in coastal community regeneration. I hope the licensing the Bill to Scotland, which has already been mentioned regime encourages new entrants and avoids additional on several occasions. After seeing their interests fishing opportunities becoming overly concentrated in subordinated in the 1970s to other priorities in the a few hands. I hope the Minister will address this issue UK’s negotiations to enter the Common Market, it is when he winds up. 2195 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2196

It is of course self-defeating to create new fishing and the UK has responsibility to establish quotas for opportunities for British boats without access to markets. the purpose of complying with an international obligation The EU proposes that provisions for fisheries should of the UK to determine fishing opportunities. How “build on existing reciprocal access conditions, quota shares and quota is then allocated within the UK is governed by a the traditional activity of the European Union fleet.” well-established concordat agreed in 2012 between the However, access to waters is not the same as access to UK Government and the devolved Administrations. markets. The UK is party to the UN Convention on This appears to work well. the Law of the Sea and, according to the excellent In conclusion, I welcome the Bill. It paves the House of Lords briefing: way for new economic opportunities. It will improve “Coastal states have exclusive rights to the natural resources, fisheries management, making it more sustainable and including fish, in their exclusive economic zone.” environmentally friendly. In the negotiations to come, The UK should therefore have the opportunity to the UK Government must stand firm and the United negotiate annually reciprocal water access with Norway, Kingdom’s status as a normal independent coastal the Faroe Islands, the EU and others. After all, this is state should be non-negotiable. how Norway, a member of the European Economic Area, negotiates with the EU and how the EU negotiates 6.02 pm with every other third country. We should move on from quotas based on historical patterns to zonal Lord Krebs (CB): My Lords, as the Minister so attachment, calculating shares using best science clearly set out in his introduction, sustainability is at of where fish are today, not where they were 30 to the heart of this Bill. The Defra briefing Sustainable 40 years ago. Fisheries for Future Generations tells us: None of this means that EU vessels should or will “Underpinning everything will be our commitment to sustainability—supporting future generations of fishermen and be denied access to our waters, but relative opportunities allowing our marine environment to thrive.” need to be more balanced and managed over time—not least to allow the EU fleet a period of adjustment to Clause 1 of the Bill, as we have heard, sets out the avoid dislocation and to give our fishing industry time fisheries objectives, the first of which is sustainability. to expand its onshore infrastructure to cope with new If this is what the Bill really delivers, in a world where opportunities. scientists estimate that in the order of two-thirds of the world’s fish stocks are overfished and in which, as When it comes to market access, trade in fishing the noble Baroness,Lady Young of Old Scone,mentioned, products is not a zero-sum game. The EU exports as only 59% of UK stocks were fished at or below much fish to the UK as it imports from the UK: over sustainable levels last year, who could object? However, £1 billion of trade in each direction. It must surely be I will argue that the Bill may not be all it seems. in the interests of both parties to avoid restrictions on When you look at the Bill in more detail, you begin trade or the introduction of tariffs. to question whether or not it will deliver on this My final point concerns devolution, which is an sustainability promise—but first I must digress. important aspect of the Bill. Our withdrawal from the “Sustainability” is, unfortunately, one of those words EU has often strained relations between the UK used by too many people to mean too many different Government and the devolved Administrations.However, things and therefore runs the danger of becoming the discussions among the Administrations about fishing almost meaningless, unless we define our terms. It was are an example of best practice. As the Law Society of not always like this. The term was coined with a very Scotland’s Bill briefing says: specific purpose by the German forester and land- “We welcome the recognition given by Defra of the importance owner Hans Carl von Carlowitz, whose treatise on of engaging with the devolved administrations and legislatures Nachhaltigkeit, the German word for sustainability, and the collaborative approach taken by the Bill.” appeared a year or so before his death in 1714. Von This is reflected in the arrangements in the Bill for a Carlowitz was concerned about the rapid deforestation joint fisheries statement and for individual fisheries of western Europe to provide wood for buildings, management plans. The provisions in Clauses 14 ships and fuel. He set out the principles by which and 16 that require UK Ministers to secure the consent forests should be managed for their long-term viability of devolved Ministers in exercising their licence for future generations. Nowadays, however, the term is regulation-making powers are also examples of a used for a much wider range of objectives. For example, collaborative approach. the UN’s 17 sustainable development goals, descended Clause 23, which has been mentioned, gives the from the 1987 Brundtland report, range from ending Secretary of State a power to set poverty and hunger to securing economic growth, justice and gender equality. “the maximum quantity of sea fish that may be caught by British fishing boats” So, what does the Bill mean when it talks about sustainability? Does it really mean securing the long-term and health of fish stocks and marine ecosystems or does it “the maximum number of days that British fishing boats may mean something vaguer and more general? I am sorry spend at sea.” to say that, as it stands, the Bill does not guarantee the When making a determination under Clause 23, the long-term health of either our fish stocks or our Secretary of State is under an obligation via Clause 24 marine environment. Why do I say this? The clue, as to consult the devolved Administrations, but their has been said, lies in Clause 1(1). This clause lists eight consent is not required. This seems to strike the right objectives of the Bill, but contains a fundamental balance. International relations are a reserved matter category error by listing sustainability as merely one of 2197 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2198

[LORD KREBS] resulted in an increase in efficiency—catch per unit the eight. If the Government really meant sustainability effort—of between 300% and 400% in recent decades. in the von Carlowitz sense, there would be just one It seems an ineluctable consequence that, if we are to objective: sustainability; the other seven would be fish at sustainable levels, the fishing industry will in subordinate to this as a means of achieving sustainability. the future have to shrink. There will have to be fewer Noble Lords may think that I am making a rather fishermen, each operating a more efficient vessel. Do technical—even academic, as suits my background—and the Government acknowledge that one element of abstruse point. However, when we move to Clause 1(2), sustainability in the future will be a smaller fishing the alarm bells start to ring loud and clear. This is industry? where the Bill declares its hand. I refer to a point touched on by the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, 6.09 pm my noble friend Lord Hannay and the noble Baroness, Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, I do not want to Lady Bakewell. In this clause, the sustainability objective embarrass the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, but I thought is defined not merely as ensuring that fish stocks are that was an excellent speech. It reminded me of an sustainable in the long term, but also as ensuring important point about the drafting of legislation. As economic, social and employment benefits. the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, may This is precisely why, under the common fisheries recall, when one asks any administration to adhere to policy, so many stocks have been overexploited. The a series of duties or objectives, the more one adds in, argument for going beyond the scientifically recommended the greater is the difficulty in the administration thereof. quotas is that, by adhering to these quotas, the livelihoods And, indeed, the Bill before us is different from the of fishermen and communities are put at risk. In other Bill as introduced in the other place, and has further words, in the trade-off between the different elements objectives. Until the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, drew of sustainability, short-term gain has taken precedence our attention to it, I had not noticed that even the over longer-term pain. By fishing more now, fishermen sustainability objective has more than one objective have good livelihoods today, but their descendants will within it. There is a heaping up of objectives, which is not have this tomorrow. I therefore ask the Minister, in why either we would have to put into the Bill some his reply, to explain to us how the trade-off between kind of hierarchy of objectives—as noble Lords will these elements of sustainability in the Bill will be recall, that has been done in relation to other calculated, and to assure us that short-term interests regulators—or the Government and the fisheries will not be placed ahead of the longer-term objective administrations would have to proceed to a joint fisheries of ensuring that fish stocks are there for future generations. statement that provided clarity to all concerned about In short, can the Minister commit to a legally binding their balancing of the several objectives at an early obligation not to exceed the scientifically recommended stage. The noble Lord helped us greatly by what he levels of quota? said about that. However, the problems do not end there; the noble I share with the noble Earl, Lord Devon, the fact Viscount, Lord Hanworth, has already referred to that I am no fisheries expert, but I do have to declare this. The fisheries management plans covered in Clauses 7 an interest: my wife’s company in Brussels is a partner to 11 of the Bill are designed, as Defra’s briefing on to an agency that has UK Fisheries as one of its the Bill says, to clients. I would not want anyone not to recognise that “achieve maximum sustainable yield for all stocks.” I have that interest to declare—although I have received One of the standard textbooks of ecology that I have no briefing particular to me in that respect, and what I used for teaching undergraduates at Oxford says that say is not derived from that. “a fixed quota strategy at the MSY level might be desirable and I share with many of my noble friends a feeling, reasonable in a wholly predictable world about which we have expressed admirably by my noble friend Lord Dunlop, perfect knowledge. But in the real world of fluctuating environments that expectations about our establishment as an and imperfect data sets, these fixed quotas are open invitations to independent coastal state from the beginning of next disaster.” year are, justifiably, high. They ought to be high. If The Peruvian anchovy stock was the world’s largest leaving the European Union is intended to deliver single fishery from 1960 to 1972; it was managed by significant economic benefits to the United Kingdom, MSY quotas and collapsed in 1972, taking 20 years to they should be visible—hopefully,dramatically visible—in recover. Does the Minister have a view on whether relation to the fishing sector, perhaps before any other. MSY is indeed the measure through which to manage How is that to be achieved? I shall focus on two quota? There are alternatives that are well known in points. One is about how the Bill takes account of the the fisheries science literature. interests of the fishing industry and secures them. The I wish to raise a couple of final points, one of which second comes back to what the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has already been mentioned—namely, the importance referred to earlier—something in which I am interested of data. The only way to get real data on what is being by virtue of our previous discussions on the Trade Bill taken out of the sea, as other noble Lords have said, is and other legislation—and that is the question: how to have remote electronic monitoring or CCTV cameras shall we here go about scrutinising and contributing to on board all fishing vessels. Why is that not part of the the exercise by the Government of their prerogative deal? powers to make treaties? My very final point is something that has not been On the first point, it is not clear how the Government mentioned before: fishing vessels are continually increasing will consult, beyond consulting the other fisheries in efficiency. One estimate in the literature is that the administrations. Devolution is a central factor here, introduction of GPS and sonar on fishing vessels has but all those administrations must understand how to 2199 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2200 balance a range of interests. We need to see in the Bill Government enter into with the European Union, and how those interests can be taken on board. For example, other bilateral agreements. Clearly, we shall not issue a what Schedule 1 says about consultation on joint negotiating mandate for the negotiations, and I do not fisheries statements is, essentially, that the Government seek one. None the less, we have a legitimate expectation can consult pretty much anybody they regard as an that those treaty negotiations with the EU,and bilaterally interested person simply by publishing the document with other coastal states, will be based on a joint to the general public. Nothing more is required. In our fisheries statement that we have examined and considered, discussions on the Bill, we must require more. We and that the Government will give Parliament, along must require the Government to take specific account with other interests,a substantial opportunity to comment not only of the scientific evidence but of the views of on the Government’s understanding of what their those who can bring that evidence to bear. They objectives should be—in the same way as I hope we should also take on board the views of the various shall, in due course, be able to do in relation to other fishing sectors—not only those of people who, rightly, treaty negotiations. The Government should at least expect more quota and a greater share of the allocation tell us what their objectives are, so that we can contribute, of catch in coastal zones and in our own territorial and hope to hold them to account for their achievement, waters, but also the interests of the distant waters or otherwise, of those objectives. fleet. Last year, I had the privilege of being on the That said, expectations are high. The Government “Kirkella”, a trawler out of Hull, with two crews have brought forward a Bill that, as I think the noble overwhelmingly based in Hull and Humberside, that Viscount, Lord Hanworth, said, looks pretty good on sails great distances. As the Minister rightly said, the the face of it; when I went through it, much of the resilience of the fishing fleet is much to be admired. structure seemed entirely logical. It is just that, when it They travel a great distance to bring back fish—in comes to the actual substance beyond the structure, their case, generally cod—for us to consume here. we need to put much more into it to make it work. Their interests, as well as those of the coastal fishers, must be taken into account. 6.19 pm That brings me to my second point, about treaties and agreements. We are proceeding on the basis that, The Earl of Caithness (Con): My Lords, I join the in an ideal world, in July we will arrive at a fisheries Minister and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay agreement that will, presumably, give us a greater in paying tribute to our fishermen, who carry out an share of the catch and quotas in UK territorial waters, amazing job in extraordinary weather. Those who our exclusive economic zone, and the European Union have been tossed around in a force 8 gale and run for will just say, “Fair enough—that’s not how it’s been in shelter when the fishermen are working hard in that the past, but clearly that’s how it’s going to be in the same gale know the sort of conditions that they have future, and we’ll leave it at that”. However, there is no to work in. Safety at sea has of course considerably evidence that the EU will leave it at that. My noble improved, and I am delighted by that. When I was friend quoted the draft negotiating mandate presented Fisheries Minister, I was very involved with safety by the European Commission, which, I remind noble because of some very sad accidents. I particularly Lords, proposed that fisheries should remember Albert McQuarrie bringing in the Safety at Sea Act, which all the fishermen wanted except when “build on existing reciprocal access conditions, quota shares and the traditional activity of the Union fleet”. it came to actually implementing it on their boats and it took up space. The reward that my friend Albert The Commission has moved from that draft in the McQuarrie got for all his hard work was that he lost past few days and, significantly, replaced the words his seat at the next election. “build on” with the word “uphold”. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, will know more about that than I do, This is undoubtedly a hugely critical area for but it is a hardening of the Commission’s position, not relationships between the UK and the EU, and for the a softening. Government. As my noble friend Lord Lansley has just said, we start from totally different poles. The We are trying to separate market access from access Government quite rightly, as our own state, want to go to waters. They are different things. In an ideal world, in one direction, but the EU will resist tooth and nail access to waters would be subject to one agreement moving away from any benefit that the common fisheries and market access would be as liberalised as we could policy has. We were misled to some extent when we possibly make it, with zero tariffs and zero quotas. joined the EEC; the rules regarding fisheries were That, doubtless, is our ambition. But let us imagine changed before we joined. That is the lesson for how that we were in a bilateral agreement—with Norway, careful we are going to have to be in our negotiations for example—whereby the Norwegians had access to with the EU. However, there are opportunities, as my our markets but we did not have access to their waters. noble friend Lord Dunlop said. He mentioned the Would we say, “Fair enough—those are entirely separate Western Isles, and my noble and learned friend things and we won’t regard them as even remotely Lord Mackay mentioned Kinlochbervie and Lochinver. interconnected”? But they are interconnected, and I will of course mention Thurso as being a critical they will be interconnected in the minds of European landing port, and a critical point from which the EU Union negotiators. It would be unrealistic for us to gets a lot of its fish. There is a stream of traffic and, imagine otherwise. when you know that that stream of traffic is going to In terms of treaties, Clauses 23 to 25 are pretty come, you get ahead of it on the A9 coming south; critical. There is a legal structure governing everything otherwise, you are going to get stuck behind it all the else, which is terrifically important, but it could all be way to Inverness before you have a chance of overtaking overruled by the nature of the agreements that the the fish lorries. 2201 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2202

[THE EARL OF CAITHNESS] called them “grandfather rights”, but either way they Enforcement is critical for the Bill. I join the noble are long-established rights. I am thinking particularly Baroness, Lady Young, in asking the Minister to be a of the fishing boats designation orders in 1965 for bit more forthcoming about what the UK fishery France, Belgium and Ireland, which give certain boats administrations are planning for in the wayof enforcement from those countries the right to fish in our waters, at sea. We are going to have a new line between us and particularly when they are going to the Isle of Man’s the EU. If the EU is aggrieved by the deal that will be territorial waters, where they have a separate arrangement. done with it later this year, a lot of those boats are I do not think that in the Bill those rights have been going to test our resolve and our enforcement at sea to extinguished. Could the Minister confirm whether the highest level that they can. If my noble friend those grandfather rights have been extinguished? What could be more forthcoming, that would be helpful. discussions has he had with the Isle of Man and the On the proposed fisheries agreement with the EU, I Channel Islands to make certain that no grandfather agree with my noble friend Lord Lansley that this is rights will continue forward under the present legislation? something that Parliament ought to look at. It intersects While we are on grandfather rights, can the Minister with the Bill in a number of areas. He mentioned be absolutely certain that he is not inadvertently creating Clause 23, but I am also thinking of Clauses 7 and 12. new grandfather rights should there be a break-up of In a number of areas, what is going to be agreed in the United Kingdom—which I certainly would not July and in the trade deals cuts right across the Bill like to see—that would cause us problems in future? and could undermine a huge amount of what it is The Bill is absolutely going in the right direction trying to do. I am not trying to tell the Minister how to and my noble friend has my support, but I hope he negotiate or what his negotiating brief should be, but will be able to fill in some of the details of the picture when we get to a certain point before this becomes a that badly need to be painted. statutory instrument, Parliament really ought to be in a position to debate it and look at its relevance to 6.28 pm the Bill. Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): My Lords, it Talking of enforcement, I would also like more is a pleasure to follow the noble Earl, Lord Caithness. information about how we are going to monitor by-catch. I know that he cares very deeply about the natural I listened with interest to the debate that the noble world. Lord, Lord Teverson, had the other day, and what I I would like to put the Bill in a political context. We did not listen to I read. Clearly, this is another area have to remember that “taking back control of our where we need much more information in order to be fisheries” was one of the rallying cries of the Brexit accurate on the data. As the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, campaign. The promise that by leaving the European has just said, it is about getting that data. And it is not Union we would develop more sustainable food, fishing just about our data; it is about making sure that the and farming systems was what convinced many people EU is doing the same thing. We find far too often that like me that Brexit would open up a brighter, greener people are working on different bases and do not have future. The Conservatives recognised this in their the right scientific information. manifesto, which made big promises on the environment I turn to the devolved Administrations. I am delighted and getting Brexit done. The challenge is now to meet by the close working relationship that seems to have those promises in the legislation before your Lordships’ been developed on fisheries, but there are a couple of House. aspects that worry me. Under Clause 17, Scotland is We Brits have a natural affinity with the seas around able to license a foreign boat, but Clause 17(2)(a) says us and the creatures that inhabit them. Many people that boat is not allowed to fish in waters outside are shocked to learn of the impacts that the industrialised Scotland. What happens if the Scottish authority licences fishing industry has had: destroying marine ecosystems, a foreign boat and it strays into English waters? Whose depleting fishing stocks and killing some of the sweetest responsibility is that? Would it not be better for all the and most intelligent life forms on the planet. In UK fishing authorities to work together on licences so that waters thousands of marine animals, including harbour there is a common pool of the foreign boats that are porpoises, dolphins, whales, seals and seabirds, die licensed as well as the UK boats? every year as a result of incidental capture and drowning On Clause 33, I am concerned that the power for in fishing gear. Recent estimates of the annual UK devolved authorities to help fisheries might lead to fisheries death toll include over 1,500 dolphins and an intra-UK state war. I hope this can be avoided, and porpoises, 400 to 600 seals, and a concerning and I hope that by working with the devolved authorities increasing level of entanglements of humpback and minke we will all do roughly the same thing, but it would be whales. These problems can be solved in this Bill, but sad if one devolved Administration used state aid in at the moment the words do not match the ambition in a way that was detrimental to the rest of the UK. the Conservative Party manifesto. Given the problems that we could have among the I do not want to pick a fight across the Chamber— devolved Administrations, and between the devolved although I probably will—particularly with such charming Administrations and the fishermen who will be seeking Peers as the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, and the noble to get the maximum catch that they can, is there not Earl, Lord Devon, but there is, for example, no UK an argument that there ought to be some sort of quota on bluefin tuna, because it is a threatened mediation or arbitration service to help in that respect? species and we are waiting for stocks to recover from I end on a point that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, past overfishing. Illegal fishing of bluefin tuna is quite mentioned. He called them “historic rights” and I a problem: there is a lack of enforcement, and that is remember that, when I was Minister for fishing, we something we have seen in the Bill. 2203 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2204

“Uncompetitive?”Well, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, From briefings that we have received from the industry, said, perhaps we need a smaller fishing industry. We it appears that the new mechanism for regulating cannot exploit the seas for short-term gain if that means catches is much more acceptable than the old common a poorer quality of life in future for more than just fisheries policy concept of “relative stability”. This is a fish. I note that the mottos of the noble Earl, Lord Devon, hopeful sign. However, the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, are, “What is true is safe”—to which I subscribe pointed out where the criteria that we are adopting fall completely—and “Where I have fallen, what have I short of what might be required for true sustainability. done?”, which I am afraid I will have to have explained to me. The fact that in Clause 1(6) there is to be a requirement Proper monitoring and enforcement of the fishing to record all catches, including bycatch, should—as industry are necessary and should begin with modern was mentioned by my noble friend Lady Byford—give electronic systems such as CCTV cameras on fishing a far more comprehensive and acceptable record on vessels and sea-to-plate traceability. That would help which to base policies. Furthermore, it is supported by people who eat fish products to be confident about fishermen. I believe that we all recognise that in the conditions and the minimisation of environmental fishing industry, when an edict comes down from on impact. Retailers, too, could be sure that no dolphins high—as currently happens—it is usually not something were harmed in their products. with which fishermen will meekly comply.The challenge As the noble Baroness, Lady Young, mentioned, for the new policy is whether it will trigger a change in the Bill falls short of the commitment to fish sustainably. the culture of some of the more belligerent elements in There is no legal commitment in it. The sum of the the industry, and whether there will be a sufficient parts of the Bill do not amount to a legal commitment number of responsible fishermen to set a new tone of any kind. Many of the ingredients are present, but that will encourage others to comply. the Bill reads as though someone started with a lot of My noble friend Lord Selkirk of Douglas reconfirmed ambition and promise and then someone else went the general idea proposed in regulation to reflect the through it with a red pen, which sadly has enfeebled it. pattern that has been developed in the Norwegian I offer to work with noble Lords across the House, fishery over the last 20 years, and the noble Baroness, including the Minister, to turn the wishy-washy parts Lady Ritchie, mentioned that we should look for an of the Bill into something strong, with legal mechanisms, improvement in what has been developed there. However, to make good on those promises on Brexit and in the until we have a little more detail on implementation Conservative manifesto. If, however, the Government and monitoring, it is hard for us here to know how resist important amendments, your Lordships’ House successful it will be in protecting vulnerable species. might be well justified in insisting that the amendments are written into the Bill. A legal commitment to fish One area where devolved rights seem to be a very sustainably is now, unquestionably, the will of the contentious issue is quotas. A number of noble Lords people. who have spoken find, as I do, that the different elements in the Bill paint a very confusing picture. In 6.33 pm Clause 2, the Bill very properly says that all must agree The Duke of Montrose (Con): My Lords, it is a great on policy in a joint fisheries statement. However, when pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, we get to Clause 23 we see that it will be up to the particularly when she is encouraging the Government Secretary of State to set out the quantity of fish that to carry out their manifesto. I welcome the chance to may be taken or the number of days that boats can be examine this legislation so early in the parliamentary at sea. Having spent many days—like many earlier Session, as it will be a prime illustration of the speakers—in your Lordships’ Energy and Environment Government’sapproach to relationships with the devolved Committee debating the uptake of the EU’s new discard Administrations. Many of the powers that will now policy, it would be interesting for me to get some come back to the UK involve devolution. indication from the Minister about what criteria the On the repatriation of fishing, in October 2017 the Government are thinking of using in this judgment. Joint Ministerial Council reached an agreement that In Clause 25 it is the national fisheries authorities there would be a need for a legislative framework for who appear to be responsible for distributing fishing regulation as we leave the EU’s common fisheries opportunities to fishing boats. I am grateful to my policy. Here we begin to see what that would mean. noble friend Lord Dunlop for explaining what will Can the Minister say when the final meeting of the govern the distribution of quotas among the four Joint Ministerial Council that addressed the Bill took Administrations. Does the Minister not think that it place, and how much agreement was achieved? would be helpful for some reference to this mechanism The tone of the Bill strikes me as incredibly optimistic to be mentioned in the Bill? Otherwise, we are left with in comparison with the norms of most of our legislation, very little indication. but perhaps it is impossible for it to work otherwise. Many clauses call for consultation, and there is to be How different national fisheries authorities should an appeal or dispute resolution process for the charges conduct their own distribution is, quite appropriately, on discards—but, interestingly, not on the allocation not addressed in the Bill, but an exception is made of licences or on many other issues. As my noble and when it states that the Secretary of State should have learned friend Lord Mackay emphasised, the presumption power of regulation over any sale of English catch has to be that everyone will remain co-operative and quota. Can my noble friend the Minister indicate ready to agree. If, however, they do not, we are in whether in England, or even in other authorities, sales unknown territory. to foreign vessels will be in the hands of the fisheries 2205 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2206

[THE DUKE OF MONTROSE] five largest quota-holders control more than a third authorities, or will it be merely an opportunity for of UK fishing quota. Around half of England’s quota individual fishermen to dispose of the catch as they is ultimately owned by Dutch, Icelandic or Spanish wish? interests. I have found, as I am sure have others, that It is welcome that one of the objectives of the Bill is the deeper one goes into this, the more complex the to bring social and economic benefits to any part whole subject is. of the United Kingdom, but I think we can all agree On the basis of the above, I am concerned to see that the real issue for our fishermen will be the deals that Clause 27 promotes an annual auction of fishing that the Government make to secure a reasonable level rights. If the Government are looking at this approach of income for their industry. as a method of generating revenue, surely a more equitable method would be simply to increase the levy 6.40 pm currently attributed to the Sea Fish Industry Authority rather than effectively sell off a chunk of quota annually Lord Mountevans (CB): My Lords, I note my maritime to the detriment of the great majority of the fleet, not interests recorded in the register, particularly as a least those who do not have the financial reserves to council member of Maritime UK, which brings together enter into an auction race and those new entrants the UK’s major maritime trade associations, and as a where it has been recognised that a major impediment trustee of Seafarers UK, the leading national maritime to their ability to enter the catching sector is the cost charity.Both organisations are concerned for the economic of quota. Such an auction would without doubt serve and social welfare of the UK’s coastal communities, only to benefit already wealthy operators at the expense not least fishing communities. of other fishermen. and would ostensibly be open to I shall not rehearse again the numerous positive resale or lease under the proposed rules, further features of the Bill, which your Lordships have heard underpinning the current imbalance in allocations. about already, other than to say that I support it. It is In addition, Clause 27(3)(n) states that the regulations an enabling Bill, and I am sure that many in the House may include provision for will look forward to working with the Minister to “the payment of compensation to a person who holds but does achieve its desirable goals and others that have been not use rights sold in accordance with the regulations.” suggested. In much the same way as UK fishermen are regularly The Bill and what will follow offer a unique opportunity disenfranchisedbythequotaheldbyslipperskippers—those to address the severe challenges facing the under 10 metre who have been awarded quota but lease it out rather fleet. This once-vibrant sector of our fleet used to than fish themselves—and quota traders, anyone other supply fresh fish, employment—often in areas where than genuinely working fishermen holding quota should few, if any, alternatives were present—and a sense of arguably do so only on a “use it or lose it” basis. worth. There is a historical disparity in allocation of quota, in the form of fixed-quota allocations, which On access to our waters by EU fishing vessels from has seriously disadvantaged the smaller sector, which, January 2021, it is of paramount importance to the despite making up 80% of the UK fleet by number, fishing community that, whatever arrangements the has access to less than 2% of our national allocation. I Government finally come to with the EU, the absolute welcome the aims of Clause 25, which seeks to utilise red line for the UK’s inshore fleet is that the 12-mile social, economic and environmental criteria when fisheries limit is made sacrosanct. This move, together allocating quota rather than continue to rely only on with the increasingly urgent need to develop, in the the highly controversial historical rights as a basis for words of Michael Gove, Chancellor of the Duchy of allocation. I agree with the Fisheries Minister, George Lancaster, world-leading fisheries management linked Eustice, who made clear in evidence to a parliamentary to a fairer and more equitable allocation of quota, committee recently: would do much to begin to rejuvenate many of our coastal communities and the small-scale fishermen “As we depart from relative stability and have new fishing opportunities coming in, I do not think it makes any sense at all and women who support them. to compound the injustice of the FQA system.” The Bill and the welcome accompanying debate If I might make one suggestion to the Minister, an around the UK fishing industry afford a once-in-a-lifetime easy win for the under 10 metre sector would be for opportunity for government and society to address him to intercede to ensure that delays in granting the some of the challenges that I and other noble Lords Coastal Producer Organisation the same rights and have noted. The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, noted the privileges as other producer organisations in the country dangers of this calling. In the past 10 years, 94 fishermen are dealt with by the Marine Management Organisation. have died off the UK, 529 have suffered serious injury The under 10 metre fleet could then benefit from and 210 fishing vessels have been lost. tailored quota management in the same way as the As noted by the noble Lords, Lord Grantchester over 10 metre fleet currently enjoys. This could be and Lord Lansley, we must not overlook the importance profoundly beneficial to the fortunes of the small-boat and value of our distant-waters fishermen who fish sector. the north Atlantic waters of the Barents Sea, Greenland Staying with quotas, it is clear that, in real terms, its and the Faroe Islands. In the context of the negotiations effective privatisation has led to increased consolidation with the EU, it is vital that the UK retains access to to the detriment of the small-scale fleet, which simply these waters. At the same time, these countries will does not have the resources to compete with far better- want continued access to the UK market for their fish resourced corporate bodies. There are some alarming exports. But as far as I can see, their interests are not figures out there: a recent investigation found that the addressed in the Bill. This may be appropriate, as the 2207 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2208

Bill seeks to address the opportunities of an independent —and you get a really wicked problem. Therefore, the state.Can the Minister say that their interests—essentially, chance in the UK to write new framework legislation continued access to the waters of Arctic Norway, is hugely exciting. In the tragedy of the commons, the Greenland and the Faroe Islands—will be assured? normal way to try and resolve the issue might be to Their major concerns can be summarised as follows: a form multilateral approaches. We are here doing the statutory requirement to consult industry, including opposite; we are going to use unilateral policy, and the distant fishing fleet, in agreeing fisheries statements there are challenges in that. or in respect of bilateral or multilateral fisheries agreements; including in the Bill reference to the objectives Of course, we have talked about the negotiations and processes for UK participation in the future that we had with the European Union, but the best management of fisheries in the so-called northern way we can go forward, I think, is to take more time to external waters,and ensuring that the competent authority create exemplary policy in this area. If we are to be secures continued UK access to fisheries in respect of unilateral about it, let us write gold-standard, world-class those non-EU coastal states with which the UK enters legislation and hope that that then promulgates itself bilateral trade agreements. into other parts of the world where it is much needed, I draw the attention of the Minister and the House and that includes within the European Union because—let to a forthcoming report from Liverpool John Moores us be honest—the CFP is failing, for two important University to be published by Seafarers UK. This reasons. The first is that maximum scientific yield is follows the study, Fishing for a Future, which Seafarers disregarded. The scientists spend lots of time poring published in 2018. That wide-ranging study covered over data and trying to estimate in this horribly changing multiple aspects of the industry and helped raise awareness world what a safe yield might be for fisheries stocks. of the safety, welfare and social issues affecting many Then a political horse trading takes place on top of of the UK’s small-scale coastal fishers and their that, in which case the maximum scientific yield values communities among government and other policymakers. are then disregarded and a new maximum quota is set I commend the report, the final draft of which I hope I whichtakesintoaccountsocioeconomicfactors—meaning have seen. jobs in the near term in countries, places and regions Since I have the attention of a well-informed and of countries where politicians care about the jobs. We very engaged Minister, I want to conclude with mention already see that the CFP is failing on that basic test of of some of the study’s recommendations. On the need whether it can successfully manage the tragedy of the for access to affordable credit, a proposal is made for a commons. It has resulted in overfishing. In the UK national credit union offer. A second proposal is for now, 40% of our stocks are deemed to be overfished. financial education for those employed in the “share That is up from 30% just a year ago, so something fish” community; here, as with those employed in the clearly is not working; and this is after successive rounds gig economy,government clearly has a key role.Regarding of reform of the CFP. We have a chance now to get it PAYE, tax and national insurance, we recommend right. Another fundamental failure, apart from the that charities, third-sector organisations and government MSY-plus-plus model that was adopted, is the relative departments initiate interventions to support fishermen stability, the model by which we grant access to quota. where support and guidance with form-filling, assessments That has been done on the basis of a historic catch, et cetera is required. To modernise share fishing, it is which now no longer has any bearing on the modern recommended that the larger-scale fleet more widely fishing fleet or indeed the actual availability of fish in introduce employment status in its sector and that, our waters, so being able to move away from that and within the smaller-scale fleet, a debate is had on the to develop a much better system is a real prize. value of moving from a share fishing model to one based on co-operative principles. Finally, a national EO Wilson, a famous conservationist, once said plan for the development and sustainability of small-scale that the problem with humanity is that we have Palaeolithic fishing is proposed. This would need specific action to brains, medieval institutions and godlike technology; I support the financial resilience and business success of think this definitely applies in the fishing sector. The small-scale coastal fishers. godlike technology, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and others have mentioned, has basically made us capable of extracting resource from the marine 6.50 pm environment in ever more efficient ways. We are literally Baroness Worthington (CB): My Lords, it is a pleasure hoovering masses and tons of biomass out of our to speak in this debate and to follow so many learned oceans and into commodity supply chains. The bucolic noble Lords and the excellent points they have made vision of a small fishing fleet leaving a harbour, getting in relation to this Bill. I agree with many who have said a lovely fresh catch and bringing it back to shore, that this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to introduce which we all then enjoy and eat, is not the reality of new framework legislation to address the management the industry today. It is hugely industrialised, hugely of our fisheries. concentrated in its power and hugely influential in its Fisheries management is the ultimate tragedy of lobbying. There is a tragedy of the incumbents that is the commons. We have a collective resource, yet it is in writ throughout the sector, and they will put pressure everyone’s individual interests to exploit it to maximum on all the people involved in this new system to ask for economic yield in the short term to the detriment of a greater quota and more access to immediate cash in the long term; a number of noble Lords have pointed the short term. I am sure that in those negotiations the out that this is true fisheries. Add to that that in the ¤500 million being taken by overseas vessels out of marine environment it is almost impossible to carry UK waters will be front and centre in their minds outeffectiveMRV—monitoring,reportingandverification about how this should be managed. 2209 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2210

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] us in both restoring carbon and drawing it down, As a society, we must really think about what we are while providing good, fresh protein sources for our doing in granting a quota. We are giving a right to a people. Locally caught fish are some of the best forms common asset that belongs not just to us but to future of protein that we could possibly imagine. They have a generations. There is an intrinsic value in what we are very low carbon footprint, and we are much better doing. We are taking something of great worth and eating local fish than importing meat from overseas. giving it to the private sector to exploit. We should ask We have a possibility here of bringing life back to for far higher standards in that transaction. Think our oceans, stimulating our local communities, helping about what we are asking now in the common agricultural with climate change and stopping the fishing industry policy—there is another Bill in another place going from making it any worse. That can all be achieved through the same process, trying to reinvent a framework with the right framework legislation. I have been involved piece of legislation that can show the world how we do in another form of framework legislation on climate this sustainable management of our commons correctly. change, from which I learned that to make a Bill There, we will establish a principle that no public successful and to make the legislation truly framework, money should be spent without public good coming you need clear targets in legislation, a clear timetable back in return. By granting quota and giving grants—I that holds the Government to account, and independent note that the Bill enables the continuation of grants—we advice. This Bill does not contain any of those things, have to apply strict criteria that this public money is I am afraid, so it misses that important opportunity to being spent for the public good. I see no reason why learn from what we know has worked in other sectors. we should not treat the fishing industry the same way This Bill is that famous empty picture frame. We need as we treat the agriculture industry, in moving us to fill it with a wonderful picture and a vision that will forward into a much more sustainable management bring money and life back to our oceans and will help system. show that there is some benefit to us becoming unilateral, The other thing, which many noble Lords have in a time in the world when I think we need much more mentioned, is the use of MRV in technology. The multilateralism. But that is another discussion. godlike technology cuts both ways. It obviously enables us to catch and find fish far more effectively, but it also 6.58 pm enables us to keep an eye on what we are doing in this Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): My Lords, tragedy of the commons. There has to be much more we are at a historic moment where the UK is in transit in this Bill that signals to the fleet that we will use to leaving the European Union, and we need to negotiate MRV to oversee this management process, to ensure new arrangements in that process. We are leaving the that we see fish come back into our oceans and a common fisheries policy and there will be major changes, return to the time when our oceans were abundant with, I hope, not unexpectedly high expectations, as with life. That is what we need to get back to, both for other noble Lords have referred to. This is a framework the short term and for the longer term. How will we Bill, and much of the detail, by necessity, will be set use MRV to ensure not just that we are policing what out in subsequent regulations. is happening in our waters but, if we sell off quota to overseas fisheries, that we know what they have caught It is generally understood that fish stocks are a if it is not landed in the UK? What will be the shared resource. After all, they do not swim around reciprocal reporting arrangements so that we can make with union jacks on their fins. An extra complicating sure that our quota is genuinely sustainable and not factor is the warming of the waters, and the fact that continuing this pattern of business-as-usual overfishing fish stocks are moving further north out of UK waters. and all the problems that brings? The Bill is based on the 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zone agreed under UNCLOS—the UN Finally, another thing that we ought to think about Convention on the Law of the Sea—which allows us strongly is the fact that our oceans, in terms of climate to exploit resources from the water and the seabed. change, are a natural sink of carbon. They can help us The 200 nautical mile limit is modified by median lines in meeting our carbon budgets in the sense that they drawn between inhabited areas, occupied islands and store carbon and lock up carbon in our waters. I might mainlands. For the UK, the median lines define the table a probing set of amendments in relation to this limits in all areas to the south, which is France; to the Bill, but I see no reason why we cannot think now east, the North Sea countries; and to the north, Norway about some of the methodologies we could introduce to the north-east and the Faroes to the north-west. Yet that would encourage fishermen, the fishers and stewards in fact in only two places do we reach 200 nautical of our coastal communities, to be rewarded for doing miles. the right thing in terms of climate change. That might mean a return to much more coastal fisheries,a low-impact I was very taken by the accounts of the court cases aquaculture—returning to bivalves as a key source of shared with us by my noble and learned friend protein, which locks up carbon; seagrass plantations; Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I do not know if he and the preservation of seaweed beds. We must think remembers one in 1983, with the arrest of the Danish carefully about the effect of bottom trawling on our skipper and Member of the European Parliament, deep sink of carbon on the floor of the oceans. It is a Kent Kirk, who was fishing in the 12-mile limit and much less studied issue, but our seas store more carbon was eventually referred, after his arrest in South Shields, than the rainforests, and by allowing fishing to carry to the European Court of Justice. on unrestrained we are losing carbon sinks and adding My interest in fisheries derives from my student to a possibly unmonitored and unreported source of days learning the international law of the sea from the climate damage. This sector has huge potential to help legendary Pat Birnie, who was also the legal adviser to 2211 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2212 the Government at the time, from my time in Maryport almost everything. I would welcome greater emphasis as a parliamentary candidate, through to representing on the fact that the Government do indeed intend to the Essex coast as a Member of the European Parliament meet their international obligations under UNCLOS. and then, for a time, being MP for Filey. There is an How will the UK access the market, given that we issue I have come across in all those scenarios, which I currently sell 50% of the UK quota to the EU? Given thought the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, put very the high price that fresh fish raises, which a number of eloquently, which is the plight of the inshore fishermen. noble Lords alluded to, and the fact that fresh fish can That is not something that has ever been a problem be taken rapidly by lorry—typically to French markets under the common fisheries policy: it could easily be aimed at the restaurant trade there—it is very important resolved by our Government and I hope the Minister that we keep this flexible, quick trade open. If it is and the Government will now take the opportunity to interrupted, we must recognise that the value of landings resolve this issue. I am also interested in the issue of may drop. Does my noble friend the Minister agree bycatch, particularly the issue of salmon as bycatch to that seeking agreement with the EU in all things in the main catch of shellfish, and I hope that that can be fisheries, including markets and access, is important, resolved. I was not entirely satisfied by the responses however complex the negotiations might be? in the briefing we received prior to the Bill being published. I am mindful of the fact that the implications of breaches of any such agreement can be serious. We The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, referred to sustainability. should learn from past experience. When the Faroes, He would like to see Clause 1 relate entirely to which are not in the EU, broke a quota agreement on sustainability, but I believe it is very important—indeed, mackerel, the EU blocked all fisheries imports from crucial—that sustainability must be based on research. the Faroes. What happens to that part of the UK’s That is why I welcome the scientific evidence objective. current quota that is owned by EU fishermen in the I also welcome the fact that the Government are Netherlands and other EU countries, notably herring, committed to continuing the work of ICES—the plaice and sole quotas? These species are often caught International Council for the Exploration of the Sea— under the UK quota, using UK-flagged vessels, and which is based in Copenhagen but relies heavily on landed directly into the Netherlands. Who should have research input from the UK. The Government have rights of quota ownership in the new situation under said they will continue to fund this, but my understanding the Bill? Will the UK reallocate all quota which is is that it is currently funded up to 50%, in our case, by owned—in other words, already bought—by UK-based the European Union. How will that research continue but foreign-owned fishing companies? What will the to be funded? solution be to each of these issues, which are, after all, I believe that where we have gone wrong in the past, linked? which has led to overfishing, is that we have not relied enough on the research that has been handed to One fact I have not heard raised this evening is that Fisheries Ministers. There is a very real concern, which most Danish fisheries, and certainly most Danish fishing my noble friend the Duke of Montrose referred to, companies, are owned by the Norwegians, which is that conservation is being left entirely to the fishing how they manage to get into the single market and the industry to uphold. I hope my noble friend the Minister customs union. That is often overlooked. will reassure us on this point. I am mindful of the There are number of omissions in the Bill that I will history; notably what was referred to as the black fish pursue in Committee. In particular, why were discards scam, in which, over a three-year period between dropped as an objective in Clause 1, and why is there January 2002 and March 2005, 17 fishermen were no mention in Clause 1(4) of endangered species? brought to court and found to have illegally landed Sharks and ray reproduce more slowly than most mackerel and herring at a Shetland factory in Lerwick. commercial fish and are therefore deemed to be vulnerable This was a £63 million scam, leading to a fine of and perhaps worthy of protection. There is lots to almost £1 million, so I hope we will not see the likes of explore in Committee, but I give the Second Reading a that again. warm welcome. I welcome the Second Reading of the Bill. During its passage I would like to explore a number of issues. 7.07 pm The first goes to the heart of fisheries policy post Brexit: how will the UK access fish stocks and how Earl Cathcart (Con): My Lords, it is a pleasure to will our erstwhile EU partners have access to those follow my noble friend Lady McIntosh. When I was stocks in our waters? The Government oversimplify about nine or 10, my father took me from our home things by saying that claiming our waters is their on the River Dart in Devon to Brixham harbour to priority, because that is only part of the issue. Is it not watch the fishing fleet leaving port on the tide. There the case that the UK will potentially lose some useful were dozens and dozens—it seemed like hundreds to areas outside UK waters where we currently fish, but me—of trawlers fanning out to sea to their favourite potentially gain exclusive access to less useful areas? fishing spots. It is a sight that I have never forgotten. While almost all the economically significant stocks Of course, we will never see the like of that again, are in the UK exclusive economic zone, there are others because since joining the Common Market, the size of that we fish in the waters of other EU member states. our fishing fleet has reduced to only a fraction of what it was. Indeed, in the last 20 years 750 vessels—about UNCLOS requires the UK to participate in a half—have gone out of business. This has had a management based on the straddling fish stocks devastating effect on the way of life and jobs throughout agreement, which means that we need to negotiate UK harbours. 2213 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2214

[EARL CATHCART] The closest I have ever got to seeing one was in New The common fisheries policy has been called the Zealand, which is seen as having one of the most EU’s most unpopular and discredited policy, leaving successful systems that works well for producers as the UK with only about 40% of the fish caught in its well as conservation. It has complete control of its own waters. The Bill is about recovering the responsibility continental shelf, which helps, but strangely enough for the management of our fishing waters, which was its industry is totally concentrated. In fact, we would lost to Brussels when we joined the Common Market. find it completely unacceptable in this country because I support the Bill, which is also supported broadly by there are no fishing coves with small boats; it is all the fishing organisations. Under international law, dominated by large vessels with tradeable quotas that from 1 January 2021, the UK will become an independent everybody bids for annually or triennially—I cannot coastal state and, as far as the EU is concerned, a remember which. Because of that, those few boats can separate country. As such, the UK will determine who be controlled very strongly by the authorities, and it is may fish in UK waters and under what conditions, just in the interests of the three or four producers not to as the EU will determine if UK trawlers may fish in keep an eye on each other—and the problem, actually, EU waters and under what conditions. It will work is recreational fisheries, which I am pleased to say both ways. come under this Bill. It is interesting that in money terms EU catches That model is absolutely inappropriate for the United from UK waters are worth about five times as much as Kingdom, but we should not forget that we have a what our fleet catches in EU waters. One can understand very disparate industry here. Some in the industry why the EU wants a 25-year settlement based on the make a shedload of money in this country. We all current quota system—in order,it says, to avoid economic think of these sectors—which I know in Cornwall and dislocation for its continental fishermen and their others will know on the west coast of Scotland, the communities. What a pity that Brussels was not just as east coast of England and, I suspect, Northern Ireland— concerned to avoid economic dislocation for our fishermen where fisheries are a really hard living. However, the and their communities when we joined the common big companies make a lot of money, so we should not market. think too sentimentally about a large proportion of I have no doubt that the negotiations will be difficult, this industry in terms of money and volume. Good but what if no agreement can be reached by January luck to them; I am not against that, but there are 2021? Under international law, the UK and EU fleets certain things which come from that. We think of will be able to fish only in their own zones until an fisheries in terms of the products we eat for our supper agreement is reached. This happens from time to time or have with chips, but the shellfish industry is also when there is an impasse in the annual negotiations incredibly important to the UK—going out with pots between the EU and Norway—both fleets are restricted and all those other things are important as well. It is a to their respective zones until agreement is reached. very varied industry. As my noble friend Lord Dunlop said, last week the Scotland is very different from England as well. I Prime Minister said that any agreement on fisheries was slightly surprised by the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, “must reflect the fact that the UK will be an independent coastal who I think said that the Shetlands lands more fish state from the end of this year, controlling our own waters.” than the whole of England. I may be wrong, but I Interestingly, he has proposed annual negotiations, think Peterhead is the largest fishing port in the UK like those between the EU and Norway, to ensure that by far, followed by Fraserburgh, then Lerwick and “British fishing grounds are first and foremost for British boats.” Scrabster. However, Newlyn and Brixham are not far That is a good starting point. This Bill is about taking behind, certainly compared to Lerwick, but they are back control of our fishing waters. Quite what will be very different industries looking at different things. given away is anyone’s guess, and I am sure that the negotiations will be tricky. Already the EU is trying to We on these Benches are looking for four principles link fishing with finance. But there are high expectations, in this Bill. The key one is sustainability. The noble as has been said, from the fishing communities that a Lord, Lord Krebs, has said that that must be defined deal will be reached which will ensure a reinvigorated better, and I accept that entirely. The amendments I and vibrant fishing industry with a sustainable future. have been thinking about do not do so sufficiently, so I By that I mean fish stocks, but I will have to read the look forward to his intervention. excellent speech of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, again. The second principle is looking at how the inshore I just trust that the fishing communities will not be too fleet—particularly the fleets with boats under 10 metres— disappointed. are dealt with. Exactly as the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said, ironically it was completely in 7.12 pm our power to give that sector as much of our total Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, one thing that I quota as we wanted. To give George Eustice, the have come to learn about fisheries is that, the more Fisheries Minister, his due, he started to reallocate you learn about it, the more you do not understand it. some of that quota to the under 10 metre or inland fleet It is absolutely true; if there is one sector where the over the last couple of years. That is an important area. more you know, the more you do not know, this is it. Another important issue for these Benches, which I Following on from that, it is very easy for us, quite do not think has been mentioned, is transparency. rightly, to criticise the common fisheries policy—I This is a national resource, yet there is little transparency have been one of its fundamental critics in the past—but about how quota is divided up and who owns what no fisheries policy is perfect. Nowhere in the world among the producer organisations. We talk about can you find a perfect fisheries regime. statistics of foreign-owned British flag vessels, but no 2215 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2216 one has an exact percentage of what quota they have. be a matter for judicial review and the Government Much of this area is not easily understood, and we would lose. I am concerned that having a stated objective would like to see a dose of transparency about the would be a potential threat to other regions that the industry—this is not to threaten commercial confidences mobility is no good for. However, I am not trying to in any way, but we need to understand how a lot of stop that mobility because, in Plymouth, Scottish vessels these mechanisms work. There is an incumbency at are important for a lot of the fish processing. I am just the moment; it is not necessarily just for the future. concerned about having equal access as an objective. The final principle for us, coming back to what the Another issue in the Bill is the stock management noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, is that we plans, which, as proposed, are a fiction. As we know, should never forget that this is a national resource. We some 80% of our precious stocks swim outside our are talking about the UK taking back control; this EEZ, and quite a few of the spawning grounds for should be a resource that is nationally ours as citizens. those stocks are also outside it. It is therefore impossible We should take care over how it is distributed and to have a credible fisheries plan—the noble Lord, looked after. Lord Hannay, mentioned this—just for one’s own territorial waters. That does not work around the I will go through a couple of things in the Bill. To United Kingdom. I should be interested to hear from come back to something said very well by the noble the Minister what will happen to what has been the Lord, Lord Krebs, the objectives at the beginning of relatively successful regional management of the common this Bill are seriously muddled. There is the sustainability fisheries policy, with agreements on regimes for the objective, yet most of that is about a socioeconomic North Sea and the western waters. Will we try to objective. I would not be averse to maybe having a continue those? We must try to make them work first separate socioeconomic objective. The sustainability before we go down the route of national plans, which objective must be the prime objective among all the need to be produced as a result of the overall plans in others. We have confusion with eight, potentially nine, those fishery areas. Otherwise, the national plans cannot objectives, and that is almost impossible. Organisations work and I do not see that sequence provided for in such as Ofgem in the energy area have a number of the Bill. objectives that can become confused. We need to indicate which objectives are the most important and Another issue is data, which has been mentioned by which are not. The sustainability objective needs to the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. There must be more stand by itself and the rest should be shifted elsewhere. transparency within producer organisations. They effectively run the business and sort out quota, which The socioeconomic aspect is important, but there has huge value, but they are pretty opaque organisations. are other ways to solve that issue other than going for There should be a public duty to have much more short-term non-sustainability. We can fund fleets—the transparency in their actions, allocations and how EU does that—and there are ways in which we can they are run. A lot of that is there to some degree finance people not to fish, if necessary, to protect our already, but it would be a lot healthier for what is a national resource. It would not be perfect, but it is a national resource if there was more transparency. way in which to do it. There have been decommissioning schemes in the past, and one of the main reasons why I am delighted that the landing obligation remains all fleets have reduced in size is nothing to do with the in the Bill and that the Government still see it as common fisheries policy specifically but because we important. However, as has been said in previous are much more efficient in how we operate our fishing debates and mentioned by a number of Members, if vessels. Of course we are. They innovate with larger the landing obligation is to remain, we must have vessels, larger nets, bigger engines and all the technology remote electronic monitoring. One cannot have non- that allows them to fish more intelligently. Therefore, discarding regimes that work without it. That obviously fleet sizes are going to come down. The biggest example needs to apply also to foreign vessels that come into of that was when sail was replaced by steam. The our waters. As has been stated by, I think, the noble whole of the south-west fishing fleet halved in a matter Baroness, Lady Worthington, there also must be a way of years. It is around technology. in which we can access the data from foreign vessels that land abroad in order to have joint management. The objective on equal access also concerns me. It sounds reasonable and means effectively that wherever The Bill is necessary. The marine environment is vessels are registered—in Scotland, Wales, England or under pressure. Fisheries must become sustainable, at a particular port—they can fish where they want. not just in the long term but in the short term—and That is my understanding. My concern is because the that is possible. The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, industry is highly concentrated and wants to concentrate who is a valuable member of the committee that more. It has large returns and big financial resources. looked at this area, was right to say that maximum The Bill proposes a method by which quotas can be sustainable yield may not be the right measure and is auctioned, tendered or used, but what is to stop additional something that must be looked at. That area gets concentration and for those vessels to come to other complicated. parts of the UK and start to take away other stocks The Bill is needed, but we must put that painting that are relied on by other regions? I can imagine a that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, talked about into situation whereby there was an auction for a quota in the picture frame before the legislation leaves this the south-west and Scottish vessel owners said, “Yes, House. Understandably, a lot of downstream regulation we will try to buy that up”, but the Government said, in terms of technical measures and so on has to be “No, we want that for the south-west”. Given the done by secondary legislation. However, we have to current objective, I would say that that situation would get the Bill right. I am not sure about banning foreign 2217 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2218

[LORD TEVERSON] how much influence we can have, not over the detail of landings by UK vessels. I have talked to the industry the trade negotiations but over the essential priorities about that and it takes away part of their commercial that we have all outlined today. Meanwhile, there are a ability.Now that we will have the friction of phytosanitary number of details in the Bill where we would like to controls on land borders—although they will still be see some improvement, some of which I will set out. in operation at ports—such a ban would make it even First, a number of noble Lords raised concerns more difficult to keep our markets open in the European about the loose commitment on maximum sustainable Union. It is an interesting concept, however. yields in the Bill, although that looser wording seems The Bill is important. We agree on a number of nevertheless to have the support of the fishers’ areas, particularly on the landing obligations and on organisations. However, we know from our experience getting the objectives right, and we very much look with the common fisheries policy that warm words forward to Committee. without distinct obligations are all too easily circumvented. We would therefore like to see that wording tightened up, although I am rather chastened by the contribution 7.28 pm of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who said that “maximum Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I sustainable yield” might not be the best terminology in thank the Minister for setting out the purpose of the the first place. I am sure we can debate that as we go Bill so clearly, and for organising some helpful briefings forward. We agree that there is a case for quotas to be with officials beforehand. As many noble Lords have set below maximum sustainable yield to allow a period also admitted, I have been—and am still—on a steep of stock and marine habitat regeneration, and this learning curve, but we battle on. As my noble friend coming period would be the ideal time to do this as Lord Grantchester made clear, although the Bill has new fishing opportunities come online. However, at been a long time coming, we welcome its intent and the very least, we would expect to see a binding legal many of the modifications made since the original commitment running through the Bill not to fish version was published. We all want to see a more above scientifically agreed sustainable levels, applicable sustainable fishing regime, with scope for our declining to all the players responsible for oversight of the fishing stock to be replenished, and we all want to see fishing allocations.As the noble Baroness,Lady McIntosh, a better deal for UK fishers to have access to our own said, we expect to see delivery of real investment and territorial waters. As with many of the Bills we will support for our scientists. If ours are to be the most deal with in the coming months, our divergence from sustainable fisheries in the world, we need the best and the Government is on the detail rather than the principle, most trusted science in the world. but before I get into the detail I shall make a more However, as my noble friend Lord Grantchester general point about consistency. made clear, our scientific data is of use only if it is We will shortly consider the Agriculture Bill and backed up by proper enforcement. As we discovered the Environment Bill in quick succession. These three with the rollout of the discard ban and our wonderful Bills together make up a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity debate on the Lords committee report on it, there is to transform our environmental footprint and clean far too little real evidence of whether it is working. up our air, water and land to create a green—and That is why, along with several noble Lords this evening, blue—renaissance. Delivering on our Paris agreement we support the use of compulsory surveillance technology obligations and our new ambitions for COP 26 will be on board boats, and an increase in inspection and key, as will robust targets and measurable outcomes. enforcement vessels. We welcome the Government’s In this respect, it is welcome that tackling climate proposal in the Bill for charging those who land over-quota change has been added to the Bill’s objectives. But we or unauthorised fish, and we think that will help to need something more than an aspiration to minimise address this matter. It will also help to address the the adverse impacts of fishing. We need to agree the complexities of mixed fisheries, but we can explore current carbon footprint of the UK fleet, and we need that further in Committee. We will want to explore a statutory commitment to deliver net zero emissions these things in more detail as the Bill progresses. within a defined timescale. It is vital that these three Secondly, we would like to see the majority of the Bills are consistent in their aspirations, targets and new fishing quotas that will come on stream being timescales. I therefore hope that when the Minister allocated to the smaller boats and fleets. As several winds up, he will be able to confirm that a process of noble Lords said, the current fixed-quota system has cross-referencing between the Bills is taking place to not been updated since the 1990s and is outdated and ensure that policy priorities do not slip through the unfair, with quotas increasingly consolidated in the cracks or suffer from conflicting narratives between hands of a few rich families. We therefore believe that the Bills. the smaller fleets should now be given preference, As many noble Lords said, much of the detailed particularly as they tend to use less damaging gear and future for UK fishers will be dealt with elsewhere, in create significantly more jobs per tonne of fish landed trade negotiations, rather than in the detail of the Bill. than the larger-scale sector.Weare particularly concerned As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said—he has been that a tendering process for new fishing opportunities, quoted several times—it is a picture frame without a as envisaged in the Bill, will preclude those small picture.It is therefore a real concern that our sustainability operators unless quota is set aside for them. A number objective could be traded away for other priorities or of noble Lords talked about the olden days and how subsumed under more pressing economic interests. We they remember them, and I suspect that most of the will need to address and bottom out that issue as the great British public, when they thought we were getting debate goes on, and we will need to understand quite our fishing waters back, expected that advantage to be 2219 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2220 given to smaller fishing fleets rather than the larger, statement could provide something more proactive in more industrial fishing boats. It is what we want and I taking negotiations forward. I like the idea that it think it is what the public would want. We will also ought to happen now, rather than later. Maybe we can want to ensure that where foreign vessels are licensed explore that further. to fish in our waters, they have to abide by the same Finally,we want more information about the proposed safety and surveillance standards as we demand of transition to these new arrangements, including, for our domestic vessels. example, on points that noble Lords have raised about Thirdly, we expect to see specific measures to help the status of existing quotas, which have historically regenerate our struggling coastal communities. My been purchased by foreign vessels. Will they still apply noble friend Lord Bassam’scommittee last year produced on 1 January next year? I am conscious that I have not an excellent report showing that seaside towns are done justice to all the points made, but I look forward some of the most deprived in the country. They have to working with noble Lords on their many good the highest rates of unemployment and lower wages, suggestions as the Bill moves through the House. This and many suffer large outflows of younger workers. is a vital Bill for the future livelihoods of UK fishers They urgently need new and sustainable businesses in and the future health of our marine environment. It is their locality to give them hope. I agree with the noble important that we all play our part in getting it right, Baroness, Lady Bakewell, that affordable housing has and I look forward to the debate. to be in that mix as well. The Bill could provide an impetus for regeneration, providing new jobs in 7.40 pm commercial and recreational fishing at sea, and support services on shore. However, it will happen only if the Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, I thank all socioeconomic concerns identified in the Bill are turned noble Lords for their contributions to the debate. I say into something positive. I was rather taken by the from the outset that so many points have been made point made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that that it would be impossible to answer them all, even if those socioeconomic concerns should perhaps be set I persuaded the Chief Whip to give me an hour. I have out somewhere else in the Bill. We can certainly explore taken all the points on board, but I cannot answer that in more detail. That is why we will propose every one during my reply. I regret that, but that is amendments to require the majority of the catch where we are. caught in UK waters to be landed in UK ports. We There are around 12,000 people employed in the may have a difference on that, but we can talk about it UK fishing fleet and the UK seafood sector employs in more detail. That could provide the crucial sea 33,000 people in total. The Bill provides the powers to change that makes our ports and harbours live again continue to support this important sector, which is and turns around the fortunes of many of those intrinsically bound to our island heritage. One of our communities. experts in this House, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, quite rightly said that it is such a varied industry. I was Finally,as the Minister pointed out, this is a framework pleased that the noble Lord raised shellfish. The noble Bill, and it leaves many of the questions about the Baroness, Lady Worthington, mentioned a national future of the UK fleet unanswered. As such, it will resource. Absolutely it is. A number of your Lordships provide little comfort for the fishers, who have to await mentioned that we have some of the best scientists in the outcome of the trade talks still to take place. the world on this matter, and we should be proud However, it seems ironic that the Bill seems to describe of that. a process for allocating quotas just as complicated as the much-derided common fisheries policy. Again, I I return to my noble friend Lord Cathcart speaking agree that a little more transparency would not go of his early memories of fishing fleets at Brixham. amiss where that is concerned. The Bill also gives the Indeed, some of your Lordships have spoken of what Secretary of State considerable powers to vary the has happened in the intervening period. The noble terms of the fisheries management plans and the Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, referred to a licence allocations. Therefore, while several noble Lords number of Defra Bills. In conjunction with the welcomed the collaboration with the devolved nations Environment Bill and the retained EU law that will be which led up to the framework Bill before us, it is also in place from 2021, this Fisheries Bill is key to ensuring vital that there is a degree of ongoing generosity and that we manage our fisheries in a sustainable and diplomacy in ensuring that the particular interests of coherent way, respecting the devolution settlements Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland continue to be and, as has been mentioned before, supporting our properly reflected. Several noble Lords, including the coastal communities.In the interconnection, the proposed noble Lord, Lord Dunlop, and the noble Baroness, office for environmental protection will have a role in Lady Ritchie, described the disproportionate impact scrutinising all environmental law, including that which on fragile, localised communities, so it is not just a relates to fisheries and marine conservation. case of the four devolved nations; more specific and A number of your Lordships raised this, but we delicate negotiations will need to take place. The noble have worked extremely closely with the devolved and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, described very well Administrations to establish fisheries objectives for the particular dexterity needed to balance those different the whole United Kingdom, for which we will set needs, particularly when they are so disparate. We policies in the joint fisheries statement. The noble want to ensure that there is proper consultation and Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, parliamentary scrutiny of the powers given to the and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised this. These Secretary of State. I was very taken by the proposal of policies will focus on key areas of fisheries management, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that the joint fisheries both to protect the environment and to enable a 2221 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2222

[LORD GARDINER OF KIMBLE] fisheries agreement in place by 1 July 2020. This will thriving fisheries industry. It is important, in the allow us to negotiate as an independent coastal state Government’s view, that each of the objectives is for access and fisheries opportunities. I know we all applied in a proportionate and balanced manner, need a reality check, but some of your Lordships have when formulating policies and proposals. We have suggested that they almost will these negotiations not therefore committed to the joint fisheries statement to be successful. It is our job always to ensure success explaining how the objectives have been interpreted in these negotiations. and proportionately applied. This provides an additional The noble Earl, Lord Devon, and the noble Baroness, guarantee that we will not implement policies that Lady Young of Old Scone, noted that discussions with promote one objective at the expense of delivering the EU on the structure and frequency of negotiations others. have begun. We expect negotiations to begin in the On the devolved Administrations, I was very pleased first week of March, once the EU’s mandate process is by what was said by the noble and learned Lord, complete. We expect them to be conducted between Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, the noble Lord, sovereign equals on the basis of mutual respect. Lord Hannay, and my noble friends Lord Selkirk and As was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, Lord Dunlop. Defra considers its relationship with the and the noble Lords,Lord Mountevans and Lord Hannay, devolved Administrations to be vital. The noble Viscount, meetings have been held with Norway and the Faroe Lord Hanworth, gave what I thought was a rather too Islands. Initial discussions focused on future fishing pessimistic analysis of how we have been conducting partnerships. Informal talks have also taken place business with the devolved Administrations. We have with Iceland and Greenland. This emphasises the bona worked extremely closely with colleagues in the fides of the United Kingdom Government, as well as a Administrations on a range of marine fisheries matters, recognition in all parts that these are shared stocks, so including during the annual negotiations. This Bill has we have to work collaboratively. been much improved as a result of the input of each of the Administrations. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to the regional fisheries management organisations. The UK I had the privilege of representing the United Kingdom will join those organisations after the transition period in the 2018 fisheries negotiations, and I can attest to and will continue to collaborate with other coastal the closeness with which we worked with the devolved states where there are shared interests in fisheries. Administrations—through the night, I have to say. There will be no gap in membership, which is very This work was an example of that. I was pleased that important. I should also say that through these bodies my noble friend Lord Dunlop raised Scotland, but I and our membership of ICES, the international body would say this also for Wales or Northern Ireland. which advises on the status of fish stocks, we will Our work has been very close. It is why, for elements continue to contribute our own scientific data to help that need resolutions that are more difficult to manage, set catch limits. UK data is and will continue to be the Government are developing a memorandum of collected by the world-leading Cefas. understanding with the devolved Administrations. This was a matter my noble friend Lord Caithness particularly The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, raised. It will enshrine co-operative ways of working, asked about scrutiny. Powers contained in the Bill and a mechanism for escalating and resolving disputes, require public consultation before they can be used. In should they arise. addition, 11 of the 15 powers require the affirmative procedure. The fisheries White Paper sets out our Consultation with the devolved Administrations commitment to working in greater partnership with was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, industry and stakeholders, and we have already started and my noble friend Lord Dunlop. International fisheries to deliver on that by working with industry and the arrangements are a reserved matter under the devolution Sea Fish Industry Authority to develop improved settlement. On that basis, the Secretary of State has management for shellfish and to consider the reform the responsibility for setting the quota but, again, the of inshore fisheries. devolved Administrations are always consulted. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, asked The noble Baronesses,Lady Bakewell and Lady Young, whether the joint fisheries statements would be legally asked about timetables. The timetables for producing binding. The joint fisheries statement is legally binding fisheries management plans will be set out in the joint for the four fisheries administrations, which again is fisheries statement and will go out to public consultation clear. as a part of that process. The joint fisheries statement must be adopted at least 18 months after the Bill I think I heard the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, say receives Royal Assent. that no speaker before him had raised the issue of negotiations. I made it clear in my opening remarks The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, talked about that access to our waters will be a matter of negotiation. quota. After 1 January next year, quota will be a As all noble Lords have referred to, this Bill is the matter for negotiation as an independent coastal state. framework to enable us to implement whatever is We have been clear that any additional quota we agreed internationally. I say also to the noble Lord, negotiate may be distributed in England through a Lord Hannay, and my noble friend Lord Selkirk that new method and we are working with the industry on the UK has always said that it is seeking to put in this. place new arrangements for annual negotiations on The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble access to waters, with the sharing of fishing opportunities Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, talked about based on fairer and more scientific methods. The UK transparency.The Bill will provide greater transparency and EU commit to use best endeavours to have a on how we manage and allocate quota in the United 2223 Fisheries Bill [HL] [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Fisheries Bill [HL] 2224

Kingdom through the Secretary of State’s determination I agree with my noble friend Lady Byford and the of UK fisheries opportunities, which will be laid before noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, that we must cut Parliament. Furthermore, we will continue to work down on the use of plastic. We are committed to with the other fisheries administrations and the industry protecting the marine environment, and tackling marine to revise the UK quota management rules. We have litter is a matter that we need to address both domestically already published details on how we receive quota in and internationally. the UK through the FQA register and we will continue On climate change, raised by the noble Lord, to do so. LordGrantchester,andthenobleBaroness,LadyWorthington, there are new grant-making powers for environmental A number of noble Lords raised the issue of the conservationwhichcoverclimatechangefurther.Emissions under 10-metre fleet. The Government recognise the from fishing vessels count towards national emissions importance of the fleet and the actions we have already and are part of the national plans to address them over taken helped it land 36,000 tonnes of fish in 2018. We the longer term as part of the Climate Change Act. should also not forget that some under 10-metre vessels My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked why we have have sold their quota, while other fishermen have sold removed the discards objective. While of course we are their quota for larger boats and have bought boats of committed to ending wasteful discards, discarding is a under 10 metres. symptom of bycatch, and this objective aims also to On quota allocation, raised by the noble Lord, address the root causes of the issue. That is why it is Lord Teverson, we do not need new powers in the Bill now called the bycatch objective. My noble friend except for where we may tender for quota. Perhaps I Lord Caithness asked about bycatch monitoring. Clause 1 may write to him in further detail about this because on bycatch will require fisheries administrations to the subject is quite complex and I really ought to try to introduce policies that will deliver an improvement in make progress. I was asked by my noble friend the the accuracy of the data available on catches. Duke of Montrose whether there will be a guarantee My noble friend Lord Caithness asked about the that additional quota will not be sold to foreign vessels. licensing of foreign vessels in Scotland. The fisheries In England, we will consider how best to use any administrations have agreed that the MMO will act as additional quota in a way that maximises support for a single issuing authority and issue licences to foreign coastal communities. We will consult on the proposed boats on behalf of the four fishing administrations. As approach enabling the industry, coastal communities regards the plans on targets, these will set out the steps and the wider public to have their say. The noble that the UK fisheries administration will take to achieve Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked about the determination the objectives of the Bill. However, many of our fish of quota at a lower level than has been fished, which is stocks are shared with other coastal states, which covered in Clause 23. If necessary and appropriate, means that we cannot unilaterally commit to time-bound the Secretary of State can replace a determination targets for their restoration. This may well come up in during the calendar year, as is the case now, but if Committee, but the Government are clear that this is fisheries exceed their quota limits, they may be subject an issue that we need to deal with on an international to sanction. basis and we must not prejudice our own fishing interests on the back of it; we need to work collaboratively. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, asked whether maximum My noble friend Lord Lansley raised fishing data, sustainable yield is the best measure. MSY is the as did other noble Lords. We are a strong advocate of standard internationally recognised measure in, for collecting data to support the sustainable management instance, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. of fisheries. Grandfather rights will be extinguished However, in our view, MSY used is isolation is not automatically, but the Crown dependencies will license sufficient to ensure the true sustainability of our fisheries. foreign vessels in their waters. We are in discussions That is why we have proposed the development of with the Isle of Man and the Crown dependencies. fisheries management plans, which will allow us to My noble friend Lady Byford talked about the take a wider-ecosystem approach. A number of noble seabed. Some 25% of the UK seabed is currently Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie protected by marine protection zones and the UK marine of Downpatrick, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and strategy includes a framework for assessing its health. Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and the noble Lord, I should also say to the noble Baroness, Lady Young Lord Grantchester, also spoke about MSY.Due to the of Old Scone, that we have included new powers in the international nature of fishing and fish stocks, which Bill to enable the Marine Management Organisation span national boundaries, MSY for many stocks can and Welsh and Scottish Ministers to protect and conserve be achieved only through international negotiations the marine environment. and relies on the good will and shared ambition of other parties. That is why the EU as a whole has not Again on the issue of discards, in England the met the 2020 target. It is also why achieving MSY by discard prevention charging system is intended to 2020 was a target for the EU as a whole and did not work to help in this, and I am most grateful to my apply to individual member states—precisely because noble friend Lady Byford for mentioning Richard many stocks cover broad geographical areas. This Benyon in that regard. demonstrates how critical it is to seek to achieve MSY The Bill provides the powers to introduce the remote through negotiations with other coastal states, and we electronic monitoring—REM—of fishing vessels at will use our negotiating power as an independent sea. We continue to explore the potential use of REM, coastal state to seek to achieve sustainable fishing at which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and the international level. my noble friend Lady Byford, alongside other monitoring 2225 Fisheries Bill [HL] [LORDS] Wuhan Coronavirus 2226

[LORD GARDINER OF KIMBLE] The clinical advice about risks to the public has not and enforcement tools, as a cost-effective and efficient changed and remains moderate. As of today, eight way of monitoring fishing activity. In future we will be people in England have tested positive for coronavirus. able to specify the requirement that foreign vessels All are receiving expert care from the NHS, which is wishing to fish in our waters have to comply with the well prepared and equipped to deal with this situation. conditions of access. Contact tracing of the first four cases has been undertaken My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of rapidly and is now complete, while tracing for the Clashfern spoke about Clause 12. This replaces a latest four cases is ongoing. This contact tracing itself similar provision in the Fishery Limits Act 1976. Its identified five of the cases—a tribute to the skill and aim is to recognise that boats may enter UK waters for tenacity of Public Health England staff—as well as purposes such as navigation or in cases of force majeure finding five further British nationals in France who recognised by the UN convention. also tested positive for the virus. They are now receiving treatment, and the Foreign Office is following up with The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, raised the voisinage consular support. agreement. The UK Government remain committed to the voisinage arrangement and to protecting continuing On Sunday,105 more British nationals and dependants co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic. from Hubei province landed safely at Brize Norton. Methods for the allocation of the Northern Irish They are now in isolation facilities at Kents Hill Park quota will be for the Northern Ireland Executive to in Milton Keynes and receiving all the necessary medical consider and manage. The Prime Minister has been attention. I pay tribute to the Foreign Office and the clear that beyond the limited changes introduced by MoD, as well as Milton Keynes Council, Milton Keynes the protocol, there will be no changes to trade between hospital and my own team, for their hard work and Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland efficiency in ensuring that this all went smoothly. This remains part of the UK customs territory. is, of course, in addition to those now reaching the end of their isolation on the Wirral. The noble Earl, Lord Devon, and a number of other noble Lords raised the issue of trade. Of course, I turn to the efforts to contain the outbreak in we absolutely wish to trade. The political declaration China. The Foreign Office is advising against all travel sets out as an aim a zero-tariff and zero-quota FTA, to Hubei province and all but essential travel to mainland and we are working to ensure that. China. Last week we issued new advice to all travellers returning to the UK from China, Hong Kong, Macau, The noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, asked about Malaysia, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and Thailand. grant-making powers that will allow us to support the That advice is clear: if you develop symptoms of reorganisation, development and promotion of cough, fever or shortness of breath, you should call commercial aquaculture and commercial fishing activities. NHS 111 and immediately self-isolate for 14 days, even There were all sorts of other questions on the further if the symptoms are minor. If you have returned from support that we will have in the Bill. I am afraid that Hubei, you should self-isolate and contact NHS 111, many other points were raised—I have gone through even if you have no symptoms. at the briskest gallop I could—but at this stage I look forward very much to a collaborative endeavour with My officials discussed the incubation period with your Lordships on the further stages of the Bill. For the World Health Organization this morning. The today, I commend this Bill to your Lordships. current evidence shows that a 14-day incubation period remains appropriate. We will continue to monitor emerging evidence closely with our international partners. Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House. As I said last week, dealing with this disease is a marathon, not a sprint. The situation will get worse before it gets better. We will be guided by the science. Be in no doubt: we will do everything that is effective Wuhan Coronavirus to tackle this virus and keep people safe. We are Statement investing £40 million in vaccine research and working with international efforts on therapeutics. Today I can 8.02 pm announce to the House the immediate launch of a capital facility to support any urgent works the NHS TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department needs for coronavirus response, such as the creation of of Health and Social Care (Baroness Blackwood of further isolation areas and other necessary facilities. North Oxford) (Con): My Lords, with permission, I Finally, there are actions that each and every one of will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable us can take—simple but effective steps such as washing friend the Health Secretary regarding the ongoing hands and using tissues. We will take all necessary situation with the Wuhan coronavirus. The Statement precautions to keep the public safe. I commend this is as follows: Statement to the House.” “I have laid an instrument before the House to confirm the power that we have taken to isolate those 8.06 pm at risk of spreading the virus, and if necessary to keep them isolated as part of our belt-and-braces approach Baroness Thornton (Lab): I thank the Minister for to protecting the public. The powers are proportionate repeating the Statement. Of course, our thoughts are and will help us slow down transmission of the virus with those who have been diagnosed with coronavirus and make it easier for NHS and public health staff to and are in quarantine. I place on record these Benches’ do their jobs. thanks to our NHS and public health staff. 2227 Wuhan Coronavirus [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Wuhan Coronavirus 2228

On the specific issues of quarantine arrangements, confirm that the devolved states will follow suit? We we understand the approach the Government have would not want Gretna Green suddenly to have a taken, particularly to deal with anyone who seeks to reputation for the wrong reasons, with people trying break the quarantine. We understand why the Secretary to remove themselves to somewhere that the regulations of State has invoked the regulations; he is entitled to do not apply. It seems sensible in the United Kingdom do so under the Public Health Act, and we offer our to make sure that there is consistency among the four support for that. Quarantine arrangements must be states. seen to be necessary, proportionate and in accordance What safeguards are in place for those conducting with the law. Their enforcement, including with powers the quarantines and isolation to ensure that they are of restraint where necessary, must be fully transparent. kept safe, along with the patients, and to prevent them The rights and freedoms of the quarantined evacuees contracting the virus? must be fully understood to ensure that they are treated with dignity and respect. The media coverage I note also the regulation that came into force at the so far certainly suggests that that is exactly the case. end of January, ensuring that no charge is to be made Tomaintain public confidence in these arrangements, or recovered from overseas visitors who may have to the framework must be understood and scrutinised by be diagnosed with, or treated for, coronavirus. We Parliament. With that in mind, I ask the Minister believe that that is right, but how is this information when we in this Chamber will deal with the regulations being disseminated to healthcare bodies? I see nothing laid. The progress of this virus is rapid; there seems to at all about it on the department’swebsite. The regulation be rapid change from day to day. We are due to break appears for parliamentarians via Hansard, but I can next week and it seems that 24 February may be too see nothing else anywhere that might help inform late, because it is moving so quickly.What arrangements hospitals and other bodies. are the Government making for us to deal with the Today’s Statement from the Secretary of State, the regulations in this Chamber? department’s daily 2 pm statement, and the report I feel that I need to declare an interest in the from the Chief Medical Officer all talk only about register: I am a member of a local clinical commissioning those travelling from a number of Asian countries—which group. Perhaps the Minister could tell the House what the Minister read out in her repeat of the Statement—and clinical commissioning groups and trusts are being who have come from those countries in the last 14 days. asked to do in terms of making plans in the coming This is echoed in the department’s advice to healthcare months if this turns into a pandemic. Can she assure professionals. So, despite being updated daily—and the House that local plans are robust and fully resourced? the number of patients was up to date as at 2 pm Are we confident that the 111 helpline has sufficient today—these Statements do not reflect the fact that capacity to deal with increased calls? Will the community some of the eight UK-based cases contracted coronavirus health trusts that are tasked with visiting suspected in France, or possibly even in the UK. patients, and will have to visit people’s homes to carry Today on radio and television, we have heard a out swab tests, be given extra resources to build up the number of experts from China, from John Hopkins capacity to be able to carry that out properly? University and from UK universities all talking about Finally, will the Minister update the House on the possibility of substantial transmission. Indeed, the international efforts to share research intelligence and department has confirmed that this is a high-consequence attempts to find a vaccine, as well as the likely timescale? infectious disease, with all the concerns and constraints I understand that there is a summit of the World that go with it, which include being Health Organization today. On behalf of the Official “often difficult to recognise and detect rapidly … ability to spread Opposition, I thank all our NHS staff and reiterate in the community and within healthcare settings … requires an our hope that the Secretary of State will continue to enhanced individual, population and system response to ensure it keep the House fully informed. is managed effectively, efficiently and safely”. We now have cases in York, in Brighton and its Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, I begin my remarks area, and in the specialist receiving hospitals in London from the Liberal Democrat Benches by echoing those and Newcastle, in addition to two GP surgeries in thanks to all staff who are involved, not just on the Brighton that have been closed for cleaning. There are front line but in the large amount of planning that is local concerns in Brighton about a community centre, going on. We would also like to thank the patients and some schools appear to be making the decision to who have self-isolated in calmness, accepting what has allow children not to come in, after two people were happened and moving a long way from home, and told to self-isolate. But there does not appear to be any those who after flying back from abroad have quite formal advice being offered to councils, councillors, contentedly gone on elsewhere. The advantage of social schools, prisons and other public bodies.Can the Minister media, television and radio is that we can hear how explain why the Statement seems to take no account of they are managing. what is happening in the UK at the moment? What I note that the Secretary of State has declared that advice is being given to local councillors, schools and transmission of coronavirus is a serious and imminent other bodies about early planning for their area, what threat to public health, despite the fact that the current they should do if a person may have coronavirus, and situation remains moderate. The regulations for England what happens once they are diagnosed, so that they are only—to isolate and hold those at risk of spreading ready in the event that there are cases in their area? the virus—is, I hope, a last resort. So far, that has not I specifically want to mention the role of councillors been necessary, but we on these Benches understand here. Elected members are often at the heart of their that there may be occasions when it is. Will the Minister communities, and an informed councillor can calm 2229 Wuhan Coronavirus [LORDS] Wuhan Coronavirus 2230

[BARONESS BRINTON] consultations remains below baseline levels and the worries, particularly at the school gate, if they can say rate of ICU and HDU admissions and hospitalisations that they have been briefed. These days, briefings do remains low, which is an encouraging background not have to happen face to face; there are mechanisms for us. through technology for people to be brought up to The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, also asked about date. those who are vulnerable. This is factored into the Finally, in Brighton, it has been reported in the NHS 111 algorithm, where we advise individuals to local media that a number of people with cancer and call should they have any concerns, as part of the other long-term conditions are understandably worried public health advice. I take on board her point about about what they should do. They are asked to make those individuals who may be useful for community sure that they have their annual flu jab, but at the communications with councils, schools and others. moment there seems to be no specific advice for people Obviously, the first place for advice is Public Health regarded as vulnerable patients. Public Health England’s England, but there may be activity which I do not have very helpful flow chart on the management of a suspected in my brief, so I will come back to her on this. case runs through very sensibly what to do with the We have cascaded very detailed information through patient, but nowhere does it suggest to ask the patient the NHS about coronavirus—what to look out and whether they have any vulnerable people in their family what actions to take—which has come from the Chief or their contact, nor can I find any advice, anywhere at Medical Officer and those leading the response, to all, about what primary care doctors should be saying ensure not only immediate response and preparedness, to vulnerable patients in their area—I am thinking but also on what actions can be taken by healthcare particularly of Brighton, at the moment—to make professionals to protect themselves. sure that they feel comfortable about this. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked about These are concerns that could, I suspect, be resolved vaccines. She will know that we have pledged £20 million with effective planning. However, it seems that, at the for the new vaccines to combat this. Every day that we moment, there is a bit of a lacuna, and I hope that the slow down sustained transmission is a day closer to Minister will be able to help fill the space. development of that vaccine. Developing a new vaccine is not necessarily a quick process; I think it will be in Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: I thank the months rather than weeks, but we will put every effort noble Baronesses for those important questions and, into making sure that we can take part in that. like them, I thank NHS and PHE staff for their Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked extraordinary work over recent days, and those patients about the differential advice regarding travel from who have acted so responsibly in self-isolating. In Wuhan and travel from other Asian states and about doing so, they have slowed the transmission of coronavirus where that stands at present. The Scientific Advisory in the UK and protected many, including those who Group for Emergencies and UK Chief Medical Officers are particularly vulnerable. I also thank both Benches have given that advice, on those who have travelled for their support of these regulations, which hopefully from mainland China and the other nations that I will not be needed, but should they be needed, could stated versus those who have travelled from Wuhan, play a crucial role going forward. based on evidence now available on sustainable I wish to clarify that these regulations will apply transmission. Should there be person-to-person only to coronavirus. They will be in force for two years transmission at a different rate, it would be kept under and will be triggered only in the instance of a serious review and the advice would change. or imminent threat to public health by a person not I hope that I have responded to most of the questions. complying with public heath advice and therefore Should there be further questions, I am happy to putting themselves and/or others at risk. respond in writing. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked about the devolved Administrations. These regulations apply only 8.21 pm to England, but we are in touch with the devolved Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, I do not Administrations, and they will consider this. Obviously, want to overreact, but this is a very dangerous condition, CMOs are acting in concert, and we think that the and prevention starts at home. The average age in this devolved Administrations will want to take this forward. House is 70. We therefore form part of the most The question of the scrutiny by Parliament is one for vulnerable group, the group most susceptible to viral duty managers, but we have come back to the House infections. Bearing in mind the pressures on Members with this issue on a number of occasions and we are to attend, should not the House authorities be preparing very committed to keeping the House updated on this advice for us on what action should be taken to avoid and will continue to do so. cross-infection within the House, including, in the On the point about how the NHS is being kept event of an infection breakout in London, the wearing updated and prepared, we have announced the capital of face masks on these premises, not only for self- arrangements today to ensure that the NHS can be protection but also for the protection of other people prepared for different isolation measures, but the NHS in the House? is always ready to provide world-class care, with expert teams in every ambulance service and a number of specialist hospital units that can respond to this. I am Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble pleased to report that the latest data from PHE indicates Lord is quite right that each of us has a role to play in that, in the past week, flu activity has once again preventing the spread of infection. At this point, decreased, against all indicators, the rate of GP the advice is that, if you have travelled from any of the 2231 Wuhan Coronavirus [11 FEBRUARY 2020] Wuhan Coronavirus 2232 infected areas or have been part of the contact tracing, Birmingham, Newcastle and Southampton will come you should self-isolate. Should you have any of the online shortly. I hope that reassures the House about symptoms associated with coronavirus—a cough, fever the capability already available within the NHS. or shortness of breath—you should stay indoors and call 111, even if the symptoms are mild. Outside the Lord Lansley (Con): My noble friend’s appreciation question of whether you have had any contact or of what is being done in contact tracing and the travelled to the affected areas, the advice from the urgency that has been invested in that and other Chief Medical Officer is that effective handwashing aspects of containment of the disease is welcome. I and the “Catch It, Bin It, Kill It” concept—to use share the appreciation that there is across the House tissues when you sneeze or cough and to throw those for that. tissues away—is the most effective way of limiting the passing on of infection, and each and every one of us I am sure my noble friend agrees that the effort put has a role to play in doing that. However, I am happy in now to try to contain the virus is not disproportionate, to pass on to the House authorities the point the noble even if it includes the powers under the new regulation, Lord has made and ask for communications to be sent because it buys us time. She referred to buying time for from Public Health England with the most up-to-date research into a potential vaccine. I have not seen any information. reference to other antiviral treatments that might be identified and be of use. For example, if a new flu-like virus was circulating we could use our stockpiles of Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): My Lords, I Tamiflu. Have any viral treatments been explored for thank the Minister for bringing the update to the this particular virus? House. Among all those people to whom we owe a debt, we should particularly single out the chief medical Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: As ever, my officers, led by Chris Whitty, who is an epidemiologist noble friend is astute on this issue. Contact tracing has and therefore has an in-depth understanding of the been hugely effective, particularly for the 1,466 passengers science. We should also thank the owners and crew of, and 95 staff who arrived in the UK on direct flights and all those on board, the “Diamond Princess”—a from Wuhan between 10 and 24 January. All those British-owned vessel—who are working with the Japanese have now passed through the incubation period and authorities and doing all they can to contain the none of them was a confirmed case. Of the remaining outbreak that has occurred there. cases that we have found, a number are linked to One of the difficulties—this was alluded to by the contact tracing. We should be very proud of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, who is not in her effectiveness of our system. place at the moment—is that in the early stages this is On the question of antivirals, work and research is like the common manifestation of any other viral ongoing in regard to a particular HIV retroviral which disease. Therefore, self-isolation and being responsible has been used in this measure. That is being considered. by staying away from people is everyone’s responsibility There are three projects which aim to advance the with all such infections. Unfortunately, some turn out vaccine candidates into clinical testing as quickly as to be coronavirus. Are the diagnostic kits for Covid-19, possible. We are also looking at some correspondence which I think is now its official name, available to from both diagnostic kit manufacturers and potential adequate numbers of hospital laboratories which are end users, and we are considering whether we can also under public health supervision? Are those diagnostic improve the diagnostic kit. kits available across all four nations of the United Kingdom? Are they linked to Colindale so that there is good co-ordination of the way in which the diagnostic Lord Patel (CB): My Lords, it is always a pleasure procedures are undertaken? to correct the former Secretary of State for Health. This virus is RNA in its genetic makeup. H1N1—the previous pandemic that we were worried about when Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble we stockpiled the antivirals—had a DNA genetic make-up. Baroness is quite right. We are aware that there are Some antivirals work better with DNA than RNA, British nationals on board the “Diamond Princess” in although the Minister was correct to say that there are Japan and that six more people have tested positive for several antivirals currently being tested to see whether coronavirus, none of whom is a British national. We they will work against the coronavirus. As far as a have offered consular assistance to those British vaccine is concerned, it takes a long time to develop a nationals—we have been in touch with the “Diamond vaccine; when you develop one, it takes even longer to Princess”—including one who is in hospital. Weobviously see whether it is effective. pay tribute to the work being done in trying to contain Last time we discussed this, I said that the Government the situation there. I identify myself with the thanks were taking a proportionate action to contain the and tribute paid to the work of the CMOs, who are virus in the United Kingdom. I believe that to be so doing an extraordinary job right now to make sure even today. However, we might be on the knife edge of that the UK is prepared. a pandemic. If a pandemic is declared, the whole We are one of the first countries in the world to attitude to how we contain this changes. It becomes have an effective test; it is working well. Now that the much more draconian, to stop the movement of people, protocols have been sent to the devolved Administrations, isolate the index cases and identify the contacts.Currently, testing centres in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Cardiff and asking the Members of this House to wear masks Belfast have started testing already. Labs in Cambridge, would only make the public panic and ask why we are Bristol and Manchester have started testing today and protecting ourselves when they are not being protected. 2233 Wuhan Coronavirus[LORDS] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2234

[LORD PATEL] Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The travel It can be a good measure, but we have to wait to see advice, as it stands, is against travel to Hubei province, how things develop. I would like to hear reassurance and against all but essential travel to China. There is from the Minister that there are plans in place, so that no advice against other travel. People should be reassured if this becomes pandemic, the Government will take that there is no problem there. the draconian action that is required. We are fortunate that, apart from the Chief Medical Lord Hope of Craighead (CB): My Lords, perhaps I Officer Chris Whitty, who is a first-rate epidemiologist, could follow up on that very subject. This afternoon we have Professor Piot, who discovered the Ebola the set of barristers’ chambers to which I belong virus, and Jeremy Farrar,chief executive of the Wellcome advised any of its members who had returned from Trust. They have better knowledge on containing any of the named countries to self-isolate, irrespective pandemics than anyone else in the world; I hope the of whether they were showing symptoms. I think that Government will use their expertise. is because it is so difficult, at the beginning, for the symptoms to emerge to a point at which somebody Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: The noble realises that they have reached the stage of being able Lord has demonstrated, far more eloquently than me, to transmit the disease. This set of chambers has taken why we have more expertise in public health, and in rather an extreme measure; maybe others are doing particular in infectious diseases, than many other nations; the same. Do I gather that that is not yet the CMO’s we of course share our expertise through the WHO advice? On the other hand, would the CMO be considering with Professor Piot, Professor Jeremy Farrar and our whether the advice should be not just to self-isolate if own Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty. We operate symptoms develop, but for people returning from such using the best scientific evidence and advice from places to self-isolate anyway as a precaution? SAGE, which is currently advising the risk level of moderate. We keep that under constant review and are Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: I am sorry not complacent in any way. Through the preparations that I had not noticed the noble and learned Lord, that we are putting through the NHS and all other Lord Hope—who is of course also an excellent legal parts of the system, we will be prepared for whatever mind— sitting right behind the noble and learned situations might emerge should there be more sustained Lord, Lord Judge. We are very grateful for the transmission in the UK. We will take the measures precautionary measures being taken by a number necessary to protect public health. The steps that we of individuals and organisations. However, the have taken so far have been proportionate and appropriate; advice from the Chief Medical Officer and SAGE is they also demonstrate that the Government will act as proportionate. At the moment, the available evidence necessary to make sure that we protect public health. is that transmission while asymptomatic is very unlikely. That is why the advice stands as it is: where the risk is Viscount Waverley (CB): My Lords, these are indeed highest and where transmission is sustained, people worrying times, with self-isolation a necessary measure should self-isolate immediately on return—which means to control transmission. In the spirit of informing on return from Wuhan and the rest of Hubei province. government, in the context of borders, is the Minister On return from other areas where transmission is less aware that mandatory forced isolation is contrary to sustained, people should self-isolate on the arrival of provisions in the Portuguese constitution? This might symptoms. become relevant when protecting our shores in future risk management efforts, to which she referred. Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmendments) Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford: I believe Bill[HL](LawCommissionBill) there are some legal specialists in the Chamber. I note Second Reading the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, sitting at the front on his Bench, who may be able to answer more effectively than I can. However, I believe that the 8.37 pm regulations as they have been drawn up are legally Moved by Lord Keen of Elie appropriate and proportionate. As I have said, they apply only to coronavirus, are in force for only two That the Bill be now read a second time. years and are triggered only by a serious and imminent threat to public health and where a person has not The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of complied, or will not comply, with public health advice Elie) (Con): My Lords, the sole purpose of this Bill is and is therefore putting themselves and others at risk. to pave the way for the Law Commission’s sentencing This is well in line with other legal measures. code, a consolidation of legislation governing sentencing procedure in England and Wales, as well as sentencing Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB): My Lords, will the procedural law as it applies to the Armed Forces. I Minister give more information on people, including reiterate that the task before us today is to consider parliamentarians, attending conferences and functions this necessary first step in the long-awaited consolidation in various parts of the world? Is there a risk of picking proposed by the Law Commission. Noble Lords will up coronavirus at airports and on long-haul flights? have the opportunity to discuss wider issues relating to Many of your Lordships attend conferences and one the substance of sentencing and release legislation in noble Lord has asked me to relay this question. due course. 2235 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2236

During proceedings on the Bill in the previous provisions of sentencing law as it applies to the Armed Parliament we heard manyexamples of highly experienced Forces, to ensure that the sentencing code can apply lawyers and judges spending too much time trying to Armed Forces sentencing law as clearly and consistently disentangle which law applied to particular offenders. as possible. That challenge is made no easier by having to deal Further pre-consolidation amendments limit the with multiple changes to the statute book, which may provisions of primary legislation that can be amended determine what sorts of disposals are available in by statutory instrument so that the sentencing code particular cases. can contain more precisely targeted powers than is the It was with this in mind that the Government case under the current law. Other pre-consolidation agreed in 2014 that the LawCommission should undertake amendments reflect the recent coming into force of a project designed to consolidate the law relating to provisions in the Crime and Courts Act 2013. sentencing procedure. The resulting sentencing code Some further technical amendments that were not aims to assist judges and legal professionals in identifying tabled in the last Parliament have now also been and applying the law, thereby reducing the risk of incorporated into the Bill. These amendments broadly error, appeals and delays in the sentencing process. It fall into four categories. First, a minor drafting change should also enhance the transparency of the process has been made to Clause 5(3) of the Bill to accommodate for the general public. However, for the sentencing a drafting change to the commencement clause in the code to work effectively, some technical changes need sentencing code Bill itself. This will make clear, in the to be made to legislation that will be consolidated in context of legislation to be consequentially amended the code. by the sentencing code, to which offences the amendments In broad terms, the current Bill before the House apply where a person has been convicted over time of does two things. First, it brings about something that two or more offences. This change does not affect the we can call the “clean sweep”, which does away with way that the code will apply to a person convicted of historic layerings of sentencing legislation. Secondly, an offence but is necessary to make clear that those it makes various pre-consolidation amendments needed amendments apply only in relation to offences for to tidy the statute book and make it ready for the which a person is convicted after the commencement ultimate consolidation process. of the code. A key cause of the current complexity in sentencing Secondly, the Bill now includes some additional procedural law is the need for courts to refer to historical pre-consolidation amendments that will correct anomalies sentencing provisions to ensure that sentences passed in references in existing legislation to provisions that are in accordance with the applicable sentencing law at will be rewritten in the sentencing code, so that the the time of the offence. The clean sweep mechanism in resulting references to the code in existing legislation Clause 1 attempts to remedy that complexity by removing are correct. the need to identify and apply historic versions of the Thirdly,the Bill now makes provision at paragraph 133 law. As a result, the current law of sentencing procedure of Schedule 2 to provide that where powers that are to as enacted in the sentencing code will apply to all be included in the sentencing code which are subject to offenders convicted after its commencement. Importantly, different parliamentary procedures are exercised in the the clean sweep is subject to exceptions to protect the same instrument, the highest level of parliamentary fundamental rights of the offender. These exceptions procedure of the various powers will apply.For example, ensure that when an offender is sentenced under the where provisions that are subject to negative resolution sentencing code, they will not be subject to a greater procedure are included in the same instrument as penalty than was available,or to a minimum or mandatory provisions that are subject to affirmative resolution sentence that did not apply, at the time they committed procedure, affirmative resolution procedure will apply their offence. to the whole instrument. That is necessary, as the code Then there are the amendments and modifications will consolidate a number of different powers to make of sentencing legislation contained in Schedule 2 to subordinate legislation that do not currently deal the Bill. These are referred to in Clause 2. These consistently with cases where powers that are subject pre-consolidation amendments are generally limited to different levels of parliamentary scrutiny are exercised to correcting minor errors and streamlining sentencing in the same instrument. procedural law. They are a standard measure that often Finally, paragraph 134 of Schedule 2 provides the precedes a consolidation Bill. It should be emphasised Secretary of State with the power to state the effect of that none of the pre-consolidation amendments makes savings or transitional provisions on the face of the changes to existing offences and penalties, nor do they sentencing code where uncommenced provisions in introduce any new sentencing law. the code are brought into force. For example, if the The Government have made some changes to the Government wished in the future to commence a Bill since it was most recently considered in the last provision in the code only for offences committed on Parliament. These are the result of the ongoing work or after the date of commencement, commencement of the Law Commission, working with parliamentary regulations could amend the code to state that date on counsel, on readying the sentencing code Bill for its face. This should help provide courts and legal introduction. The pre-consolidation Bill now includes advisers with the full benefit of the clarity that the a number of technical amendments that were tabled code will bring. by the Government ahead of the scheduled Third I finish by reiterating the Government’s gratitude Reading in the last Parliament. These include pre- to the staff of the Law Commission, and indeed to consolidation amendments that seek to tidy up a few parliamentary counsel, for their exceptional efforts 2237 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[LORDS] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2238

[LORD KEEN OF ELIE] I am not—I would get this done first and then look at and continuous expertise and energy throughout the the sentencing decisions which will arise when we sentencing code project. It is a formidable achievement. consider that Bill. I beg to move. The committee of the House which I had the honour to chair examined the proposed Bill and was 8.46 pm enthusiastically in support of it. Members of that committee are here to speak, and those who for different Lord Judge (CB): My Lords, this process has been reasons cannot be here have asked me to convey on moving at a speed that would attract the unrestrained their behalf their continuing support. What is surprising admiration of an indolent sloth—and an indolent and disappointing is that the proposal has received the sloth has no interest in the administration of justice in wholehearted support of Parliament, yet we have had England and Wales. to wait. I am not blaming anybody for this, but here is As the Minister set out, this process began in 2014. the fact: the Bill was introduced into this House on In fact, even before that judges had been trying to 22 May. It completed all its stages up to Report. It was persuade the ministry to let a code be created. The ready to go, and it was lost when Parliament was final report on the draft code became available in prorogued. There were more significant consequences November 2018. As the Minister has said, it has been of the Prorogation of Parliament, but this was one of a work of astonishing complexity—a prodigious effort them. Then the process started in the next Session, by the Law Commission, led for this work by Professor and again the Bill was taken forward. Everything was David Ormerod. Unsurprisingly, it has been greeted in sight, the cup about to be grasped. A number of enthusiastically,rightly,by anyone with any real experience small amendments were introduced by the Government of the problems, not of sentencing decisions as such— at that stage which were sensible, so that the Bill would although any judge who passes sentence will tell you be ready for enactment, but it was torpedoed by that those decisions are difficult enough—but of Dissolution—again, the Dissolution process had rather sentencing technicalities; statutory pitfalls; optimistically greater consequences than this. drafted regulations; regulations that are drafted, come into force and disappear after three or four Now we are here a third time. The amendments months; and, with no disrespect to Parliament, general suggested by the Government again make good sense; parliamentary tinkering with the sentencing processes. they serve to improve the Bill. I did my own cross-check, This has resulted in a morass of confusion. but I ran out of energy just because we need a sentencing Every Government, of all colours, going back years, code. So I sought the advice of Professor Ormerod, have added their own ingredients and then left it to the who was able to assure me that he was prepared to give courts to sort out the puzzle. Sentencing decision is, his blessing. If he had not, I would have complained—not however, not a game. Every single case involves a to him but to the Government. A particular point to defendant, and from time to time people forget that raise is that amendments should be commenced which, every case involves a victim. The sentence matters to whenever possible, follow the “clean sweep” model the victim, too, and it should be right. In every sentencing and, again, reduce to extinction the risk of retrospectivity. decision—of which there are tens of thousands every A second is that any new legislation can be made year—the first question is: “What are the powers of compatible with the code. That, I earnestly urge should the court?” The second question that should be asked happen. is: “What are the legislative requirements and constraints There is a solitary advantage in us having to address that apply to this case?” The decision of the court these issues again: it will give the House the opportunity should always be lawful, but too often, because the to hear from my noble and learned friend Lady Hallett, relevant law is obscured by technicalities and legislative who will be making her maiden speech. She is a very confusion, it is not. This is unacceptable, it is inconsistent long-standing friend. There are many things that could with the rule of law and it has been besmirching our be said, but I want to highlight this: she was the judge system for years. A remedy is urgently needed and this to whom I turned to conduct the harrowing inquest sentencing code, the Bill and the processes that we are into the tragic consequences of the murderous terrorist now reviewing will provide the desperately needed attack in London in July 2005. We will all remember remedy—not because it is needed by lawyers but because the transport disaster which resulted in so many deaths. there are daily miscarriages of justice. It is a miscarriage I know her well enough; I have heard her say that she of justice for a court to pass a sentence that is unlawful. would be the first to extol the fortitude and courage of Those miscarriages result directly from the chronic the families of the victims and the survivors who state of our legislation. appeared before her at that inquest. But she will not I will make two further points. First, the code and say it, so I will. The sensitivity of her approach to each Bill simultaneously avoid any retrospective increase in individual human tragedy encompassed in that long, sentencing: the date of the commission of the offence sad catalogue of murder can, even at the risk of is the starting point for the sentence. Secondly, it embarrassing her, be highlighted. provides for a degree of flexibility, so that as new legislation creates further crimes—as happens constantly More to the present point, she was until a few —it can all be worked into the code, so that we do not months ago the vice-president of the Court of Appeal have to come back in 10 years’ time and say, “Ten Criminal Division, much of whose work involves dealing years have gone by and we need another code”. We with appeals against sentence which would have been shall soon be looking at the counterterrorism Bill. quite unnecessary if the legislation had not been That can be fitted into this code. If I were in charge—and impenetrable and the proposed code in force. 2239 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2240

This is the third time in a few months that this issue before a panel of 13, followed the rudiments of a trial has been addressed. Even the journey of an indolent sloth as in a civilian court. Regimental courts martial, on eventually reaches a sluggish conclusion. Can we not the other hand, before five or three officers, were much have any more sloth-like behaviour? Can we have urgent easier to summon and consequently more popular attention so that, third time lucky, we will be quick? with authority.They were, however,much more informal. Witnesses did not give evidence on oath, and severe 8.54 pm and unusual punishments were meted out. An example was the wooden horse. This instrument, invented by Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD): My Lords, I am the Inquisition, resembled a carpenter’ssawhorse standing looking forward very much to the maiden speech of on four legs, save that the crossbar was not flat but a the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett. Like triangle, the upper point of which was suitably shaved myself, she is of a police family and a veteran of the to a sharp edge. The convicted soldier had to sit criminal Bar, although she subsequently rose to dizzying astride the horse on this edge for the prescribed period, heights that I never attained on the Bench. We need her elevated in the air, often with weights tied to his legs to contribution at this time, and no doubt in the future. increase the pain and add to the injury. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said, Records were generally not kept, but a fragment the Bill was pored over in the last Parliament. I have has survived from 1722. Within a five-week period, little to add generally, save to welcome it as a precursor seven prisoners were sentenced to the wooden horse, to the sentencing Bill. The Leader of the House in some for insolence to an officer, others for going another place has promised us that Bill in this Session. out of camp. Another punishment popular with these I assume that the sentencing Bill will introduce the regimental courts martial, also recorded in this excellent sentencing code, and I too congratulate the Law 1722 fragment, was running the gauntlet. The prisoner Commission and parliamentary counsel for the years would be lashed by a company of soldiers drawn up in of expert work that they have done in producing it. two files through which he would be slowly marched, I am grateful to the Minister for his letters of an officer in front of him with his sword pointed 23 October and 5 February. In his first letter, he backwards and another behind with his sword pointed informed me that work was continuing to include forward. It could be lethal. Another case is recorded in Armed Forces sentencing law in the code, and the new that fragment where the prisoner was found to have provisions in this Bill do indeed include tidying up absented himself from guard duty, his punishment pre-consolidation amendments. As chair of the being to have his neck and heels tied together. Association of Military Court Advocates, I naturally have an interest in this area, and my comments will be In the army, flogging was standard. One sentence directed to that. recorded in 1750 was 600 lashes for being absent without leave. In 1777, one Elijah Reeves received 500 The Law Commission, in paragraph 3.23 of its lashes for visiting a whorehouse that had been declared report, had decided that, by reason of pressure on off limits. Military justice very slowly improved, but resources,it was unable to draft the necessary amendments there was always resistance to change. Flogging was to the sentencing code to apply it to the service jurisdiction not abolished until 1881, despite campaigns against it within the timeframe of this project. It also pointed throughout the earlier part of the century, led by out that the application of the code to the service parliamentarians such as John Bright and Joseph Hume. jurisdiction could be achieved by way of the next The military always argued that it was essential for Armed Forces Act, which must be passed before the officers to have the power to flog, end of 2021. It noted the ongoing review of military justice, the report of which will no doubt be published “to curb the natural passions of men”,—[Official Report, Commons, 16/2/1880; col. 1167.] shortly. Is it now intended that the sentencing code will be brought to bear on courts martial in the as the Tory MP Colonel John North put it. sentencing Bill, or will the Government wait for the As for the informality of these proceedings, a Bill review report and for the Armed Forces Bill to be was introduced in 1805 to require that the evidence brought forward in 2021? given in a regimental court martial should be on oath. I thoroughly approve of the “clean sweep” principle, In the debate on that Bill, Lord de Blaquiere, a supporter, not least in connection with service criminal law. Service told the Commons that he had law and procedure have been built up piecemeal. I “seen a man sentenced by a regimental Court-martial to receive want to make some comments about an important one thousand strokes, for an offence, which, on board a ship, procedural issue which in my view has gathered barnacles would not have been punished with more than a dozen lashes”.— [Official Report, Commons, 12/3/1805; col. 860.] and needs to be challenged in the light of the Law Commission’s report. It is the current sentencing role Sir John Wrottesley, on the other hand, a major in the of a court martial panel, against which I have argued militia as well as an MP, opposed the Bill, arguing that on previous Armed Forces Bills. I take my text from “petty fogging attorneys” would always be lying in the Law Commission’s report itself, paragraph 1.16 of wait to interfere with military justice. which states that As a pettifogging attorney myself, I recall moving “the law governing sentencing procedure is complex, difficult to amendments to the 2006 Armed Forces Bill, one of locate, and difficult to understand, even for experienced judges which proposed that members a court martial panel and practitioners.” should, as in the United States, be drawn from other The services, as represented in Parliament, have ranks as well as officers. Another proposed amendment always been proud and protective of the military was that members of a court martial panel should be justice system. In history, there is not much to be mixed, drawn from all three services instead of solely proud of. In the 18th century, general courts martial, from the prisoner’s service. These amendments were 2241 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[LORDS] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2242

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] It goes without saying that it is right that those opposed by the Minister, Lord Drayson, strongly convicted of a criminal offence are punished for that supported by a noble and gallant Lord who later, in a offence. It is important that victims see justice being touch of banter outside the Chamber, told me that my done. A custodial sentence can serve as a deterrent amendments were outrageous and asserted, with the and protect the public from those who pose a serious approval of two other noble and gallant Lords from threat. However, the objective of sentencing should different services, that I should be shot. also be that the offender may on completion of their There have been significant improvements over the sentence be rehabilitated and leave their criminal behaviour years, despite such resistance. However,both the services behind them. and the Ministry of Defence have insisted up to now Yet it is in this final area that we seem to be having that sentencing should be the responsibility of the court most difficulty. The prison population in England and martial panel—its decision being, of course, by a simple Wales was 83,430 in 2019. In 1900 the prison population majority. Under the current law, the role of the judge was around 17,400; over the next 90 years it doubled advocate at the sentencing stage is merely to advise to around 40,000 and over the past 30 years it has panel members of the extent of their sentencing powers, doubled again. It is projected to continue to grow to rather like a clerk to the justices. Under Section 160(4) 85,800 by 2022 and at that rate we will hit around of the 2006 Act, the judge advocate has a casting vote 100,000 in England and Wales by 2030. The average only in the event that the panel is equally divided on cost per prison place in England and Wales is £40,843. sentencing. He has no vote, of course, on the issue of There are fewer than 100 prisoners serving whole-of-life the finding of guilt or innocence. I remind your Lordships sentences, so while we are locking more people up we of the comment of the Law Commission that the law are also letting more people out. Last year 69,622 prisoners is incredibly complex and difficult to understand, even were released from prison. Reoffending rates are 48% for experienced judges and lawyers. One wonders at for all adults released, rising to 65% for those serving the faith placed in a court martial panel to get a sentences shorter than 12 months. A survey published sentence right, particularly when it may be dealing, under by the Ministry of Justice last year put the economic Section 42 of the Act, with a most serious crime, all and social cost of reoffending at £18.1 billion. Where the way up to rape, manslaughter and murder. have we gone wrong and what can we do to put In the civilian courts, where a person has been it right? convicted of manslaughter, I have known sentences of Prevention would be best. We know that fewer than life imprisonment, but also sentences of lesser severity, 1% of school pupils have been permanently excluded all the way down to an absolute discharge. How can a from school in the general population, but in the court martial panel deal with that? Remember that, prison population they account for 42%. We know unlike a much more experienced bench of magistrates, that 2% of children have been taken into care in the whose powers of sentencing are limited to two years’ general population but they form 24% of the prison imprisonment, the officers on the panel, save for the population. We know that 64% had used illicit drugs president, may well be new to the job. For many, before entering prison, that 46% had alcohol problems perhaps the majority, this will be the first and last time and that 40% have mental health problems. We know they are called upon to sit in judgment. Surely it would that 62% of prisons are currently rated as overcrowded, be more sensible to leave sentencing as the responsibility with cells intended for one person often used to house of the judge advocate, assisted by the panel on any two. We know that many prisoners are locked in their service issues that may arise. cells for all but a few hours of each day. I have no doubt that I shall return to this point when we consider the sentencing Bill in this Session, I suggest another reason why prison is failing to be or the armed forces Bill in the next. As we await as effective at rehabilitation as we wish: while we have anxiously the findings of the current review, I wish strengthened a little our belief in judgment and demands this Bill a fair passage. for retribution, perhaps with the advance of social media and the web, at the same time, perhaps with the 9.04 pm decline in religious belief, we have weakened a little our understanding of and belief in concepts such as Lord Bates (Con): My Lords, I rise as testament to forgiveness, mercy, grace and redemption. Redemption: the grace of the open speakers’ list offered by the Whips’ the belief that though you have done something terribly Office that a non-lawyer should be able to speak on a wrong, at the end of your punishment and displaying Law Commission Bill, in a debate in which will take remorse there is afforded to you a second chance to part two former Lord Chancellors, a former Lord Chief start afresh and make a positive contribution to society. Justice and a Deputy President of the Supreme Court. I also stand between your Lordships and the very In his book No Future Without Forgiveness, the welcome maiden speech of a former High Court judge. Nobel laureate Desmond Tutu wrote the following: I am speaking because I read the written evidence “Forgiveness is taking seriously the awfulness of what has provided to the Special Public Bill Committee on this happened when you are treated unfairly. It is opening the door for measure by the Prison Reform Trust, which welcomes the other person to have a chance to begin again. Without forgiveness, resentment builds in us a resentment which turns into the Bill but remains hostility and anger”. “concerned that Parliament risks missing a vital opportunity to scrutinise the impact of the current sentencing framework on If all that sounds a bit too woolly for my noble and outcomes in the criminal justice system.” learned friend on the Front Bench, let me pray in aid a With your Lordships’ forbearance, I want to test for a Conservative Lord Chancellor who said in the House few moments the effectiveness of those custodial sentences. of Commons: 2243 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2244

“It is because I am a Conservative that I believe in the rule of is the system as a whole that makes this country a law as the foundation stone of our civilisation; it is because I am a desirable place to invest, to do business and to litigate, Conservative that I believe that evil must be punished; but it is and it provides access to justice for all our citizens. also because I am a Conservative, and a Christian, that I believe in redemption, and I think that the purpose of our prison system This is not the time to list the problems that beset and our criminal law is to keep people safe by making people judges, magistrates and practitioners. The Bill aims to better”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/1/16; col. 149.] address just one of them. The idea is simple, as noble Those were the words of my right honourable Lords have heard. It is to streamline the sentencing friend Michael Gove in 2016, someone who in the process; it is not about outcomes. It is the sentencing intervening years has demonstrated the benefits of process that affects hundreds of thousands of cases political redemption. each year. The aim of the Bill is to make it quicker and When my noble and learned friend responds to this easier for a sentencing judge and practitioners to find debate, can he say whether the purpose of prison is the relevant sentencing provisions. still to keep people safe by making people better? If so, As your Lordships have heard, at present sentencing when will we have an opportunity to scrutinise the provisions are extraordinarily complex. Experienced effectiveness of the Government in doing so? Custodial judges and lawyers struggle to interpret them even sentences have an important part to play in keeping when, in the Court of Appeal, there is rather more the public safe and ensuring justice is seen to be done; time than is available to the sentencing judge in the but an over-focus on longer sentences resulting in an Crown Court, who may have nine other cases in her ever larger prison population without an equivalent busy list that day. The provisions are scattered among focus on redemption and rehabilitation may only serve several statutes, and in the case of one defendant to ensure that those people leave custody bitter but not different statutes may be in play. necessarily better. Back to that busy judge, who has a list of 10 cases —one of them involves four defendants, one of whom is under 17, one was 17 at the time of the commission 9.11 pm of the offence and is 18 at the time of sentence, one may attract the dangerousness provisions, and one Baroness Hallett (CB) (Maiden Speech): My Lords, may be lucky to get away with a suspended sentence as a barrister for 27 years and a judge for 20 years, I and possibly a community penalty. I cannot tell your am accustomed to speaking in public, yet I confess Lordships how many statutory provisions would be that I find the task before me now somewhat daunting—a involved in the judge trying to work out how to feeling that has been exacerbated by the relatively long sentence the four—and do not forget that she also has wait today. The good news from your Lordships’ point nine other cases to deal with that day. The scope for of view is that, as every hour passed, I deleted yet error is huge. another passage from what I had intended to say. As vice-president of the Court of Appeal Criminal My feelings of trepidation stem from the knowledge Division until last October, I promise your Lordships that becoming a Member of this noble House is both that I lost count of the number of unlawful sentences an honour and a privilege. I am extremely grateful to put before us, costing time and money to rectify and, those who played a part in my appointment and to my in the process, causing unnecessary distress to the supporters, especially my noble and learned friend victims of crime, who were uncertain of the sentence Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, who left his passed on the perpetrator of the crime against them sick bed to be with me on the day of my introduction. and who were extraordinarily, and obviously rightly, I shall do my utmost to prove that their trust in me is angry when we were forced to quash a sentence because well placed. it was unlawful. I am also extremely grateful to the staff, to officials and to noble Lords and Baronesses who have proved When Professor David Ormerod QC first announced so helpful and welcoming since my arrival. I should that, as a Law Commissioner, he intended to embark also like to thank my noble and learned friend Lord Judge upon a codification of the sentencing process, many and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for their kind experienced criminal lawyers—and I confess that I remarks. If I had to leave the justice system—which I was one of them—thought it was an impossible task. did because of an Act of Parliament and I was getting But with the help of parliamentary counsel the Law too old—I can think of no better place to be. The Commission has done it, and after much consultation, justice system will, however, remain close to my heart. the code has been greeted with acclaim by the informed My father, as noble Lords have heard, was a police legal community. officer, who taught me at an early stage the importance It is worth repeating that, if enacted, the code will of the justice system. I am proud to have played a part not: alter any maximum sentences currently available in it, particularly as I was told more than once that for offences; subject any offender to a harsher penalty people from my background, especially women, could than could have been imposed at the time of the not cut it as lawyers. offence; or affect the release dates as currently set. I shall therefore follow with interest steps taken to Those are all matters that may have to be considered ensure that the justice system of this country remains on another occasion, as will the point about the principles one of the best in the world. A fully functioning and of sentencing, rehabilitation, deterrence and the like. properly funded justice system is essential to a healthy But that is not for today. democracy.We have the excellent business and property This Bill is about process. It will, at a stroke, simplify courts, but they are only part of the equation; we must sentencing, save unnecessary distress, money, time and not allow other parts of the system to crumble. It effort, and it will not cost any money. I know of no 2245 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[LORDS] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2246

[BARONESS HALLETT] Secondly, I agree with the Law Commission that it criminal lawyer or judge who objects to it. On the has to protect the principle of retrospectivity and contrary, they are impatient for it to be enacted. They particularly that you cannot be sentenced at a higher have been disappointed twice; there is no reason for level than the sentence that applied at the time you them to be disappointed a third time. committed the offence. It preserves that in the Bill and it is right to. The House is going to come back to that 9.17 pm issue in the Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Bill that was published today.The effect of that Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab): I speak for the Bill is, for no doubt good policy reasons, to transform whole House in congratulating the noble and learned the time before release for terrorist offenders on Baroness, Lady Hallett, on her absolutely excellent determinate sentences from half way through the sentence maiden speech. The House has got a taste of what is to and automatically to two-thirds of the way through, come. For me it is a huge personal pleasure to follow and then with the approval of the Parole Board only. her in this debate. I have known her for very many years. She is one of quite a small number of people A question arises as to whether that changes a who have been profound change-makers in the law, sentence after the commission of the offences. I am and without any fuss. As she said, she was an advocate aware of cases, particularly that of Uttley in the for 27 years; she did not mention that she was the House of Lords in 2004, which suggest that it is chair of the Bar. As it happens, she was the first relevant to focus on the maximum in the sentence, and woman chair of the Bar, but that makes no difference only if the new sentence is higher than the maximum to the fact that she was among the best of them. She would it be retrospective. I have anxieties about that, was a judge who was in effect in charge of criminal because a statute is being passed that will unquestionably sentencing for a long period of time in the Court of increase significantly the time that people spend in prison. Appeal. She is testament to the stupidity of the judicial The principle of preventing retrospectivity is that you service arrangements that forced her to retire too should not, after the event—maybe by a statute driven young, and testament to the inadequacy of the judicial by public opinion—change somebody’s sentence for appointments arrangements in that she did not become the worse. It should be the courts, in accordance with the Lord Chief Justice. One of the things about the law,that fix the sentence, not public opinion subsequently. noble and learned Baroness is that she knows just as But that is a debate for another day. much about human beings as she does about the law. I My third point is again one that the noble and learned am absolutely sure that the best is yet to come. Lord, Lord Judge, has already made. The intention of I move to the Bill. I, like all other noble Lords who the sentencing code is that it is to be one statute to have spoken in this debate, commend this short but which judges can refer in order to determine what the important paving Bill towards a sentencing code. The sentence is. That works only if in years to come, effect of this Bill and the Bill it paves the way for will amendments to sentencing abide by the principle of the be very significant to the performance of the criminal sentencing code. It is worth drawing attention to the justice system. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, fact that substantial changes were made to sentencing and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett, in 1991, 1993, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007, have explained the current position. As a result of a 2008, 2009, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2019. I say in random test in 2012, the Law Commission made available parenthesis that even Brexit did not stop the change in to us the statistic that 36% of sentences are unlawful. sentencing. It is extremely unlikely that that pattern That does not mean that they were just too long as will not continue after the sentencing code is passed. judgments, but that they were passed contrary to the In order for the code’s principles to be given effect, terms of the statute allowing them. We are a country four principles need to be adhered to. First, any changes that prides itself on the rule of law. If over a third of the in sentencing should be made by changing the terms sentences that are passed are unlawful, there is something of the sentencing code, not in a new document. Secondly, wrong with the law and we need to change it. if any changes do not come into force straightaway, There is unanimity among those who practise in the they should be put into Schedule 22 to the sentencing criminal justice system, whether advocates, prosecutors code so that people can see that it is one which has or judges, that there should be change. As the noble not come into force straightaway. Thirdly, any new and learned Lord, Lord Judge, has pointed out, this arrangements should maintain the principle of the Bill and that which it paves the way for has been, as the clean sweep,and fourthly,anycommencement information Prime Minister would say, oven-ready since May 2019. should be included in the Bill. Only if the principles of Some time will pass before this paving Bill gets through the sentencing code are adhered to as we go forward and thereafter—and only thereafter—does the sentencing will the very brilliant work of Professor Ormerod and code come. I strongly urge the Government, as the his team take us through into the future. noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, has done, to deal I strongly support this Bill and I hope that it with this as quickly as possible. It is something on becomes law, and that the sentencing code which is to which Parliament agrees; there is no reason for delay. follow it becomes law as quickly as possible. I will mention three specific points.First, I congratulate the Law Commission on its work, particularly the 9.26 pm clean sweep principle,which allows the courts to adjudicate Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, it gives what the right sentence is based on one statute only, in me the greatest possible pleasure to follow the excellent effect the sentencing code when it comes. I congratulate maiden speech of the noble and learned Baroness—which, the Law Commission on coming up with a principle as of course, having known her for some time, I expected sensible and simple as the clean sweep. to be of the highest quality. 2247 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2248

This Bill forms part of the extremely valuable the judiciary and said, “I have had experience of many consolidation procedure. For a short time, I had the countries and of employment law in many countries. honour of being the chairman of the consolidation The unique feature of the United Kingdom is the committee, but I was saved from continuing in the role absolute honesty of the judiciary.” It is an extremely by being appointed Lord Chancellor. I discovered precious quality, and I honestly am not absolutely that, of all the committees which serve Members of certain that it is fully appreciated in every quarter as it both this House and the other place, the difficulty of should be. convening a quorum for the consolidation committee It is extremely important that the status and was the probably the highest. That suggests to me that remuneration of the judiciary,including pensions, should the process of consolidation is not as precious, or match that very big quality. It is not that they are paid perhaps as fully understood, as it should be. That is for honesty, but they are employed and continue to be because, unless we have reasonable consolidation, our employed because they are honest. Sometimes some statute book will become less and less intelligible. statutory instrument comes along and their termination I had the honour of being a member of the Scottish appears, but it is nothing at all to do with any fault in Law Commission for a time, and like the noble and them. It is simply what some mistaken people in the learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, I was the past have brought in as the ultimate age for service. Minister for the Law Commission during my time as This is an extremely important matter. I certainly Lord Chancellor. I think that it was a marvellous believe that that quality is in a way preserved by this institution which was set up by Lord Gardiner, with a Bill, which will help honest judges get the answer that certain amount of query from some lawyers, as is is right. usually the case if you make an improvement, and the result has been absolutely excellent. One of the features 9.33 pm of the Law Commission as I knew it was that it usually had the services of a parliamentary counsel, then Lord Hope of Craighead (CB): My Lords, it is an detached from the ordinary office in Whitehall. I honour for me to follow the noble and learned Lord, suspect that the parliamentary counsel involved in this Lord Mackay of Clashfern—my former devil-master, Bill was seconded to the Law Commission. from whom I learned so much. I take this opportunity to congratulate the noble and learned Baroness, In the past I have had a little experience of the Lady Hallett, on her excellent speech. She demonstrated relationship between the Law Commission and Her very well what the House is gaining by her membership, Majesty’s Government. One of the features of the because of her remarkable and deep experience of criminal law of England and Wales is that it is principally criminal law at every level, from the Bar right up to the statutory law and not all of it is absolutely at the peak very high level she reached on the Bench. Her remarks of modernity. In fact, it is extraordinary how old some about the difficulties that sentencing judges face, which of the essential provisions that are in day-to-day use she observed so well from her position in the Court of are. When I was concerned in these matters, there was Appeal, are extremely valuable in the context of the a move to codify the criminal law. A certain office of debate we are having. state had responsibility for the criminal law and was reluctant to see anything of the kind happen—but I have no hesitation in welcoming the Bill, and I am somehow the Law Commission managed to start a delighted that it is being sponsored by the Government. procedure for codifying the criminal law.It was eventually As chairmen of the Law Commission, I have known able to excise a bit that seemed reasonably attractive to only too well for decades, that it is not easy for Law the office in question—but, so far as I know, it never Commission Bills to make progress in Parliament. got any further. Parliamentary time is often at a premium and, without sponsorship from the Government, it would be difficult— We have here an example of modifying and probably impossible—for any progress to be made at modernising the process for sentencing, as has been all. We must be grateful to the Government, not only pointed out. We are not able today to give effect to my for being willing to sponsor the Bill but for being noble friend Lord Bates’s sentiments, which I very willing to find time for it, at the third time of asking, much share. It is not part of this Bill, which is concerned only six weeks into the new parliamentary Session. only with the sentencing process. It deals with it in a This is, of course, only the first stage of the further very effective way; it could not possibly do it simply by process which will, we hope, end up with the approval a consolidation Bill. This pre-consolidation Bill is able of the code itself. I hope, as others have said, that the to make the corrections that, when fitted in, will bring progress made so far in this Session—let us ignore the in a sentencing code that will be absolutely excellent. I fits and starts of the previous ones—will be maintained, hope—I feel certain this will be the case—that there and that rapid progress will be made to get us to the will be many fewer unlawful judgments from now on. stage at which we may be able to consider and approve Even judges can make mistakes, but the chances of the code itself. mistakes in this situation are very much reduced. It is very easy in a debate of this kind to be drawn The noble and learned Baroness pointed out in her into a broad discussion of sentencing policy, as the maiden speech how much she values the judiciary of noble Lord, Lord Bates, demonstrated in his entertaining this country.As it happens, I was coming from Inverness and fascinating speech. If I had freedom to do so, I last night on a plane that was a little later than it might would say something about the disturbing, inevitable have been if the weather had been different, and I was creep in the level of sentences: up and up they go, talking to a gentlemen who was much in business and without any obvious benefit. However, I will leave somehow knew my line of life. He began to talk about that all aside because, as has been said already, the 2249 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[LORDS] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2250

[LORD HOPE OF CRAIGHEAD] This is a supremely well-drafted and very carefully Bill, as its long title makes clear, does no more than put together Bill, and I offer it my full support. lay a sound basis for the enactment of the sentencing code itself. I paytribute to the LawCommission and parliamentary 9.40 pm counsel for the immensely impressive and painstaking Lord Adonis (Lab): My Lords, it is a great pleasure work put into the schedules, particularly Schedule 2. I to join in congratulating the noble and learned Baroness, did my own research when comparing this Bill with its Lady Hallett. She made what has been, in my time in predecessor, in June of last year. I was looking for the House, the briefest but most authoritative maiden what used to be paragraphs 90 and 92 of Schedule 2, speech. I can see why she has such an impressive which I commented on at Second Reading last time. record as a judge. We are extremely fortunate to have They dealt with the transfers of community orders her in the House for the future. and suspended sentences from England and Wales to Clearly, the arguments for this Bill are overwhelming. Scotland under the Powers of Criminal Courts They have been made by the Minister, the noble and (Sentencing) Act 2000. I could not find them, because learned Lord, Lord Judge, and all other noble Lords the numbers had changed. I was rather startled to find who have spoken. We look to the Minister to facilitate that what were paragraphs 90 and 92 had moved to the passage of this Bill so that we can get on with the paragraphs 101 and 103. As I looked further into the substantive Bill. It says something about the complexities schedule, I found another nine new provisions, including that we are dealing with that it takes a prior Bill to get paragraphs 133 and 134, to which the Minister has to the consolidation Bill to bring about the reforms already made reference. It is to be admired that, although that we want. This further demonstrates the need for the Bill was becalmed in the summer, work to make these pieces of legislation. My noble and learned sure that the schedules were absolutely up to date did friend Lord Falconer said that in a sample of sentences, not cease; I am sure we will all benefit from the work 36% were found to be unlawful, which is truly shocking. that has been put in. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett, said, I will say no more about the problems that sentencing for a nation that prides itself and exhibits itself to the judges and magistrates face; it is a morass of confusion, world in respect of the rule of law and setting high as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said. standards, that is not acceptable. However, I want to draw attention to one point. In his I hesitated to speak, because these points are agreed celebrated book The Rule of Law, the late Lord Bingham among us, and because this is a debate dominated by of Cornhill identified eight principles of the rule of very experienced judges and lawyers. However, fortified law that he thought we should bear in mind. The first by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, who was this: took us into courts martial in the 18th century, and the “the law must be accessible … intelligible, clear and predictable.” noble Lord, Lord Bates, who talked about the wider The law which magistrates and judges should be required principles of sentences and outcomes, I will make a to administer should be accessible, clear and intelligible. few wider remarks. To the lay person coming into this It is absolutely plain from the noble and learned field, the fundamental issue is not the operation of the Baroness’s speech that that is very far from the case, law—although clearly that needs to be improved—but and indeed that we are in serious risk of failing to the outcomes. To anybody looking at this from the observe the rule of law in the situation as it is at the outside, the fact that in the last 40 years the prison moment. I mention that just to underline the point population has doubled, the average length of sentences others have made—I am referring in particular to the has significantly increased, and concern about crime noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, and recidivism has not improved in society, proves and his impressive speech—of the urgency to make that we are out of step. I hesitate to say it in this progress with the Bill to the stage which we all wish to company, but Scandinavia and other countries have reach. lessons to teach us on how to manage crime in society. Finally, I pay tribute to the care which has been We are way out of step with those societies in the taken in the drafting of Clause 1(3) and (4), which are numbers that we incarcerate and the lengths of sentences. designed to ensure that those convicted after the code The question must be asked—and if not in this debate, comes into force will be dealt with according to the there needs to be an appropriate time—what are we most up-to-date law, and also the corollary: that the going to do about it? Are we going to let this continue? convicted person is not dealt with by the imposition of I look at most of the things we did when I was a a penalty of any kind that is more onerous than that member of the same Government as my noble and which applied when the offence was committed. Perhaps learned friend Lord Falconer with great pride. In most there is a difference in the uplifting and administration areas of public policy, we left things better at the end of a penalty which the court has imposed, which may than at the start, but I do not look back with any pride be a riposte to the point made by the noble and at the fact that we had a larger prison population at learned Lord, Lord Falconer, on the Bill he referred the end of our time than the beginning, nor that we to. If the judge is not required to increase the sentence, had a criminal justice system that evidently was not but only to deal with the way that it is administered by working better. My noble friend recited a long list of changing terms of parole and so on, one might not statutes which have been passed, making the point think that that is the case, but we are not really that the law on sentencing has changed virtually annually concerned with that here, because every effort is being in the last 30 years. What struck me as I listened to the made—and should continue to be made—to ensure a debate and read the material relevant to it was that clean sweep in both these respects. very few of those statutes have taken a wide-ranging 2251 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2252 and comprehensive view of sentencing. All of them, 9.47 pm except perhaps the Criminal Justice Act 2003, have Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, been incremental reforms to sentencing, in response to I will be relatively brief for a number of reasons. First, issues of public concern and often not dealt with in it is late. Secondly, this Bill has had a unanimous the best context. They have not been properly co-ordinated welcome and support from around the House; and, and have added to the complexity of the statute book, thirdly, we debated this Bill in almost identical terms which the noble and learned Baroness referred to. on 12 June last, and again we have had an excellent They have all had the effect of ratcheting up, bit by bit, debate in which a number of brilliant speeches have the prison population and the length of sentences. powerfully made the case for the Bill. The question I wish to put into the debate—I came I too welcome the noble and learned Baroness, here partly to form views as to how we might tackle Lady Hallett, to this House and congratulate her on the problem—is: how are we going to address this her excellent maiden speech. I have admired the noble wider issue? The noble Lord, Lord Bates, did it by and learned Baroness for many years as an incisive reference to wider moral principles, which I fully respect, advocate, as an extremely distinguished judge in the and he referred to Michael Gove’s speech. However, High Court and the Court of Appeal, as a forward- we are legislators—we should obviously be guided by looking chair of the Bar Council, as an effective moral principles but we also need to have regard to treasurer of my Inn, the Inner Temple, and in many how we can change the law—and we need an opportunity other roles. She expressed concisely and brilliantly, to get to grips with the issue of sentencing and its with all her vast experience of the Court of Appeal relationship to crime and public confidence in a Criminal Division, the reasons why this Bill is so comprehensive way. I am not sure how we can do welcome when she described the crazy complexity of it—clearly, this Bill is not the appropriate vehicle—but the existing statutory provisions and expressed the we need a process which gives a comprehensive view of view that this Bill and the sentencing code will, at a sentencing at large. stroke, simplify sentencing. The Bench’s loss is of course our gain and we look forward to the noble and I thought I had an answer as I listened to the noble learned Baroness’s future contributions to the work of and learned Lord, Lord Judge, referring to the committee this House. he chairs. That committee is not directly relevant to this issue but it prompted the thought in my mind Perhaps I may add a few words from the perspective that, as we are currently looking for new subjects for of these Benches. First, we are completely committed Select Committees of the House—ad hoc committees—to to the mission of the Law Commission to ensure that examine, it would be fit and proper for the issue of the law is as fair, modern, simple and cost-effective as sentencing at large to be examined comprehensively possible. This Bill is essential to that mission and in an by a Select Committee of this House. Perhaps the area that is central to our law and liberties. We have noble and learned Baroness, in the new duties she is heard accounts from speakers from the noble and going to undertake in this House, could play a prominent learned Lord, Lord Judge, onwards—including from part in that, given that she has more experience in this my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, on military field than anyone. law in particular—of anomalies in existing sentencing law; its fiendish complexity and inaccessibility, to judges We have a duty to society at large to undertake this and counsel, let alone to the public and defendants exercise at some point. It may be that doing it in who most need, and are entitled, to understand it; the parallel with the sentencing code being put on a statutory passing of unjust and unlawful sentences,with a frequency basis in the legislation that follows this would be an that defies belief; and the delays and cost caused by opportunity to do so. There is certainly no body in bad sentencing. Parliament or the country that is more fit to undertake The Bill has at its heart the Law Commission’s this exercise. I put the thought to the Minister and stated aim other noble and noble and learned Lords that the time “to codify the law, eliminate anomalies, repeal obsolete and has come for us to seek to address what should happen unnecessary enactments and reduce the number of separate statutes.” to sentencing policy and to give our advice to Parliament But I add a few notes of plea and of warning. First, and the public at large. the code will work well only if future sentencing The facts are stark: we have a prison population changes are not only incorporated into the code, as the that has doubled, we are seriously out of step with Bill promises, but are themselves kept simple. It has international opinion and best practice, and the prison not just been difficulties of understanding that have estate is in a scandalous state. Given the reports of the made sentencing law inaccessible. There have been too prison inspectorate that come forward month after many complex variables in the substance of sentencing month, if any other field of public service—I have law, as to when and under what conditions particular significant experience of education but one could look sentences may or may not—or must, or must not—be at any of the others—was addressing reports of this passed. These have made it very difficult for lay people kind, we would close down those institutions immediately. and lawyers to understand the courts’ powers and the Obviously, we cannot close down prisons because we rationale for them. have to have places where we can incarcerate criminals. Secondly, I applaud the clean-sweep provisions. It is However, the time may have come when we need to essential that everyone understands what sentences take a comprehensive view of this issue and a Select can be passed by the courts, and I agree that the best Committee of this House might be the way to take reference date for that understanding is the date of it forward. sentence. That is subject to the exception outlawing 2253 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[LORDS] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2254

[LORD MARKS OF HENLEY-ON-THAMES] shall benefit greatly from her wise words in future— retroactive sentences imposing penalties that would especially, I hope, when we consider legislation such as not have been available at the date of the offence. This this, which deals with sentencing issues. principle was described in the Explanatory Note, and Like others, I am delighted that the Bill is back by the Minister at Second Reading last year, as ensuring before us; I am only saddened that it has taken three “that the clean sweep does not contravene the general common goes to get here. However, this Second Reading debate law presumption against retroactivity”.—[Official Report, 19/6/19; is somewhat better, perhaps, for having waited to come col. GC 15.] round this third time. We have certainly heard a wider I agree with what the Minister said today: this principle range of speeches than we did the first time, some is necessary to protect the “fundamental rights” of the touching on the grisly impact of sentencing in courts offender. The principle was then rightly described by martial, with a learned discourse from the noble Lord, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope—and effectively Lord Bates, on the statistics—grisly statistics, one repeated today—as incorporating a requirement might say—of our judicial system and of law and “that the convicted person must not be dealt with by the imposition order in this country. of a penalty of any kind which is more onerous than that which he would have faced when the offence was committed.”—[Official We have also had the advantage of hearing the Report, 19/6/19; col. GC 19.] noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, make a powerful As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of speech advocating better-paid judges.He should probably Thoroton said, we will consider that principle further become the chief negotiator for the judiciary as it in connection with the Bill concerning changes to seeks to improve its pay and conditions. There was release dates, published today, which we will debate also a bid by my noble friend Lord Adonis for a later this month—and I share the noble and learned sentencing Select Committee. He is lucky, because the Lord’s anxieties. usual channels are on our Front Bench tonight, and I Thirdly, those drafting legislation would be doing am sure that my other noble friend will have taken lawyers and lay people alike a kindness if they used careful note of that bid. less cross-referencing. Definitions reading that “phrase A We very much welcome the Bill, as we did last time. in Act B shall have the meaning ascribed to it in Weknow that the justice system faces extreme challenges: Act C”, should cease to be a feature of our statutes. the decimation of legal aid has reduced access to Simplicity and clarity are all; codification is part of justice for those who need it most; the courts are the battle but, alone, it goes nowhere near achieving a facing budget cuts and are also, sadly, haemorrhaging statute book that is readily intelligible to the public. experienced staff. The Government have been pushed And that is what we must aim for, particularly in a by voluntary organisations, campaigners and MPs to society where computer literacy is now happily widespread, review the workings of the family courts, as they are so that statutes can be easily researched by many, and failing survivors of domestic violence. In the face of also where citizens’ access to legal representation and that, and more, we must get sentencing right. I welcome advice has been substantially diminished by extensive the Bill in that regard, as we did previously. We too cuts in legal aid. want to put on record our thanks to the Law Commission Finally, as has been said, this Bill will not of itself for its work, and to all the other stakeholders who improve sentencing policy. The Minister in opening have contributed to the years of research and consultation made the point that it makes no changes to substantive that have brought the Bill before us, and which will sentencing law; nor does it. From these Benches, we inform the consolidation Bill that will follow it. will continue to argue for a sentencing policy: that The profession has welcomed the Bill. In its briefing, puts rehabilitation at its heart; that will involve more the Bar Council referred to existing sentencing law as community sentences,with improved and better-resourced a patchwork quilt, and urged the introduction of the supervision of community sentences and supervision sentencing code without further delay—quite right. during and following custodial sentencing; and that That patchwork is derived from three statutes, including will reduce prisoner numbers, improve the prison regime the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 and introduce a presumption against ineffective short and the Criminal Justice Act 2003. I think I may have sentences. These themes were addressed by the noble been responsible for one of those pieces of legislation, Lords, Lord Bates and Lord Adonis, in their welcome but I shall not apologise for that; it was my duty as a broadening of the ambit of this debate. Home Office Minister. We want to see a penal system dedicated to helping The Law Commission estimated that there had offenders turn their lives around—so also cutting been at least 14 major Acts covering sentencing in the reoffending. Perhaps those are matters for another past 40 years—and my noble and learned friend Lord day, but they will nevertheless bear consideration Falconer read most of them out. At least one of them throughout our consideration of sentencing. We will repealed legislation that had created sentences only six argue for the development of the code, when it comes, months before. The point about de-layering is well in that direction. meant, and well met. The Law Commission wrote that the law on sentencing procedure was 9.54 pm “extremely difficult to locate, interpret and apply, even for an Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab): My Lords, I take experienced lawyer or judge”. great pleasure in joining in the general congratulations The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett, gave a to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett, on good example of that, which illustrated the sheer her excellent maiden speech. The words I jotted down mind-boggling complexities that confront judges when immediately were “Brevity welcome”. It was a powerful they have to unravel and locate the different sources speech, and made with great concision. I know that we for a sentence. 2255 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2256

What hope, then, is there for a lay person? Apparently would correct that assertion and suggest that what she very little, we are told, as it can be “practically impossible” had done was to trigger a statutory limitation introduced for someone to locate and understand parts of the law. by the Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993, To illustrate the complexity of the current system, the which I suggest is really something quite different. commission gives two very good examples. At one point, it points to a maximum fine that can be unlimited The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, implied but you have to read about it somewhere else. The that we were experiencing déjà vu all over again. There second example is about the effect of commencement is an element of that, no doubt, but nevertheless the dates recorded separately from the provisions that time that has elapsed has allowed this Bill to be they apply to, concealed in secondary legislation. improved, a point made by the noble and learned It is well evidenced that the case for change is Lord, Lord Hope. So while I regret the delay that has overwhelming because of the frankly alarming number occurred, that time has not been entirely wasted. We of wrongful sentences that are passed—the estimate is can therefore look forward, with the universal approval in the region of 36%—and the cost of delays and appeals. of all sides of the House, to introducing much-needed The complexity of the current layers of law comes at a reform to the English law on sentencing procedure. It high price. Beyond lengthy procedure and the public gives me particular pleasure as a Scottish lawyer to be purse, there is a human aspect. The impact on those introducing these measures. sentenced, on witnesses and, particularly, on victims and their ability to trust in our justice system is immense. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, inquired about the position of the sentencing code in the Armed This can be described as a Bill of two parts. The Forces.It is intended that it will apply to the Armed Forces. clean sweep, as it has been called, is the more novel I make one point clear: we are talking about the sentencing part. We appreciate the detailed work done on the code Bill, not the sentencing Bill as anticipated in the possible human rights implications of the sweep and Queen’s Speech. I want to make that absolutely clear. its retroactive remit, particularly on our rights under Article 7 of the ECHR. I welcome the exemptions that My noble friend Lord Bates, and the noble Lord, have been identified and included in Schedule 1. Clause 1 Lord Adonis, raised wider questions about prisons, includes a regulation-making power to allow the Secretary the impact of sentencing, crime, rehabilitation and the of State to specify other provisions that the clean purpose of prison, and I quite understand their wish sweep will not apply to. It would be helpful if the to address these matters going forward. However, Minister could outline today in what circumstances while I acknowledge the importance of the points they that power might be used. Is the intention for it to be a raised, they are not for this Bill and I do not intend, at back-up in case any exemptions have been missed out this time, to take them any further. of Schedule 1? The clean sweep that we are legislating for is a The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and one-off so there are key questions about how we the noble Lord, Lord Marks, referred to future intend to retain the benefits of the exercise and prevent amendments to sentencing. Clearly it will be imperative, layers of new law developing once again. Is it the in taking forward further legislation on sentencing Government’s intention that where amendments are after the code is in place, that we ensure that Parliament made to the code, they will also be commenced so that abides by the principles of the code, so that it remains they apply to everyone convicted after that date regardless effective and workable. It would be of no benefit to of when their offence was committed? anyone if we were to render such an important code Previously the Law Commission said that the best effectively redundant by misadventure or inappropriate estimate of the financial benefit that the sentencing future amendments to sentencing. code would offer was savings of some £250 million over the next 10 years. What plans do the Government Further points were made by the noble Lord, have to put any savings back into the justice system to Lord Bassam of Brighton, about the power to carry fund desperately needed legal aid and improve overall out further amendments. That power is essentially access to justice? there in case there has been any oversight in what is an extremely complex area, or if there is any change in With those comments, we very much welcome the sentencing law between Royal Assent for this paving Bill. We welcome the additions to it, particularly those Bill and the passing of the sentencing code Bill. It is that we asked for regarding the Armed Forces. We included essentially for those purposes. wish the Bill well on its journey through Parliament. The savings that might be made by introducing the 10.01 pm sentencing code have not been costed. We will have to wait to see what savings can be made, but, as the noble Lord Keen of Elie: I thank all noble Lords for their Lord observed, the Law Commission itself expects contributions to the debate. I join other noble and some savings to be made. noble and learned Lords in thanking the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett, for her maiden speech There were wider contributions from noble Lords, and her contribution to the debate. I welcome her to which I readily acknowledge, but at this stage—and at her place in this Chamber. I fear, however, that I must this point in the evening—I would like to repeat the contradict her upon one point made in her maiden thanks already expressed to all those who have contributed speech. She said that she had left the judiciary because, to this work, both at the Law Commission and within and I quote, “I was getting too old.” With respect, I parliamentary counsel. I also acknowledge that, across 2257 Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts)[LORDS] Sentencing(Pre-consolidationAmdts) 2258

[LORD KEEN OF ELIE] Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee the House, there is a recognition of the need for clarity of the Whole House. to be introduced into this complex area of the law. I finish, therefore, by thanking all noble Lords for their contributions, and I commend this Bill to the House. House adjourned at 10.07 pm. GC 1 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment GC 2

Grand Committee communities a break, reduce the number of victims, protect the public and save the costs of dealing with Tuesday 11 February 2020 the crimes. The monitoring will be continuous and delivered via electronic ankle tags, providing assurance with 3.30 pm compliance. If alcohol is detected, or attempts are made to avoid the monitoring, the offender can be returned to court. These requirements may not be imposed on Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment dependent drinkers or alongside an alcohol treatment of Offenders Act 2012 (Commencement requirement. They are only for adult offenders. No. 14) Order 2019 Harnessing innovative technologies such as alcohol Considered in Grand Committee tags can not only punish offenders but help turn their lives around. This legislation plays an important role in a wider package of reforms of community penalties 3.32 pm that the Government plan to bring forward in due Moved by Lord Keen of Elie course, which will ensure that community sentences can offer an appropriate level of punishment while That the Grand Committee do consider the Legal effectively tackling underlying drivers of offending. Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (Commencement No. 14) Order 2019. The alcohol abstinence and monitoring requirement was introduced by the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Secondary Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. This legislation Legislation Scrutiny Committee, Session 2019 (special creates a new requirement within the Criminal Justice attention drawn to the instrument) Act 2003 that can be used where a community order or suspended sentence order is imposed. The 2012 legislation requires the order to be piloted before it can be rolled The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of out. This requirement has been met. There have been Elie) (Con): My Lords, I begin with a short apology two pilot schemes: one in London, initiated by the for the delay in commencing. The purpose of this Prime Minister when he was mayor, and the other in draft instrument is to enable the Secretary of State to Humberside, Lincolnshire and North Yorkshire. These make the alcohol abstinence and monitoring requirement pilots have shown us that this new measure will be available across England and Wales. welcomed by criminal justice partners. This legislation gives the court a new tool directly to address alcohol-related offending. As part of a The two AAMR pilots were run respectively by the community sentence, judges and magistrates will be Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime in London, and able to impose a ban on drinking alcohol for up to by the police and crime commissioners and the 120 days, and we will monitor this using continuous Humberside,Lincolnshire & North Yorkshire Community electronic monitoring, which is referred to as alcohol Rehabilitation Company. I appreciate that the absence tagging. I am grateful for the comments made by the of published findings was criticised by the Lords Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. I am pleased intend to address them below and in the course of this to say that findings from the pilot in the north-east debate. have now been published and I am happy to be able to highlight some of them during this debate. Some Alcohol-fuelled crimes put a huge strain on front-line 1,500 orders were imposed during the pilots. services. Problematic alcohol consumption is associated with crime, particularly heavy or binge drinking and The pilots had significant differences in how they violent crime. The latest published figures from the were run, but the compliance rates are very similar, Crime Survey for England and Wales, in 2018, estimated which gives us confidence in the utility of this measure. that in 39% of violent incidents the victim believed the Compliance was very high indeed—the figure for the offender to be under the influence of alcohol. Alcohol- requirement itself was 94% for both pilots; and for related crime is estimated to cost the taxpayer up to abstinence from alcohol it was 98% in the London pilot £13 billion per year. Public Health England estimates and 97.4% in the Humberside pilot. That is the percentage that the total social and economic cost of alcohol-related of monitored days that were free from both alcohol harm was £21.5 billion in 2018. and interference with the equipment. There was significant AAMRs have a punitive effect on offenders by use of the order in the sentencing of violent offences restricting their ability to drink alcohol while the in the pilots. In London, 45% of requirements were for requirement is in force. In addition, the pilots have violent offences, and in the north-east 31% were for shown us the potential of this measure to address the domestic abuse offences. purposes of sentencing more widely.Where the criminal This measure is welcomed by those on the front line. behaviour is driven by alcohol, an alcohol ban has the Indeed, as the Humberside police and crime commissioner potential to reduce crime and provide the opportunity Keith Hunter said: for reform and rehabilitation. Through enforcing “The period in which the offender is tagged will give rehabilitation abstinence, AAMRs are designed to mitigate offending agencies a real opportunity to work with the individual and get behaviour which is driven by alcohol. Where alcohol is them to recognise and change their behaviour, hopefully for good. driving or triggering criminal behaviour, the AAMR I would like to see these orders available nationally as a standard will interrupt it and should give individuals and feature of the Criminal Justice System.” GC 3 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment GC 4

[LORD KEEN OF ELIE] fifthly, that it can be imposed only together with a Sentencers in the London pilot were frustrated that community order or suspended sentence; and finally, they were unable to impose the order on offenders that a breach of the requirement is punishable by a who fell outside the pilot area. sentence for that breach. Reports from the pilots demonstrate that offenders The Committee has heard from the Minister that also recognised benefits. They were generally optimistic there have been two pilots. The London pilot ran from about the requirement and felt that it had a positive 2014 to June 2018, while the Humber, Lincoln and impact on their lives, particularly around their health, North Yorkshire pilot—which I shall call the northern well-being and offending behaviour. In the north-east, pilot—ran from after the 2017 election until April last 81% of those surveyed at the end of the requirement year. There were different methodologies. The London reported that they thought they would drink less or no requirements were imposed on a stand-alone basis, alcohol when the tag was removed. whereas the northern pilot imposed the orders together The scrutiny committee commented on a lack of with community orders, while monitoring and fitting information about rollout of the new measure. We of the tag was carried out by probation staff. In plan to begin the introduction of the order later this addition, the northern pilot included domestic abuse year. Our intention is to take a similar approach to offenders whereas the London pilot did not. that used for the successful rollout of location monitoring The only question that warrants the Committee’s and so avoid disruption to the core electronic monitoring attention at this stage is whether enough evidence has service. We will balance an incremental rollout that been gleaned from the two pilots that alcohol monitoring allows us to respond to learning from early deployments requirements are or will be effective to justify Parliament’s and further findings from the pilots if necessary,alongside commencing the section now and rolling out alcohol opportunities to prepare stakeholders and inform monitoring requirements. Your Lordships’ Secondary decision-makers appropriately, with ensuring that the Legislation Scrutiny Committee clearly concluded that tool is available across England and Wales as quickly there was not. Central to its view was that the results as possible. We estimate that when the requirement is of the northern pilot had not been published, although fully rolled out and in use nationally, in around 2023-24, we have heard from the Minister that they have been some 2,300 people will be sentenced to these orders now; that was predicted for this month. But published each year. This will mean that approximately 400 orders or not, it follows from their recent nature that the will be active at any given point in time. results cannot have been publicly evaluated. The order’s requirement imposes an alcohol ban of The Ministry of Justice sought to justify its position up to 120 days, while continuous monitoring provides in its Explanatory Memorandum at paragraph 7.3, assurance regarding compliance with the sentence of which bears reading because, I suggest, it is unconvincing. the court. We believe that the introduction of this It says that the evaluation of the northern pilot measure strengthens the community sentence response to alcohol-related offending and is a powerful message “is not due until February 2020 but sufficient learning has been that we are tackling this issue. We should not lose time shared with the department, through ongoing involvement with the pilot and its evaluation, to indicate findings consistent with, in introducing a new measure which means that our and complementary to”, courts can directly address a driver of crime and stop the drinking of those who cause misery, damage and the London pilot, and that: fear by their behaviour, for up to four months. We “In addition, the department conducted a proof of concept strongly believe it is in the public interest to introduce for using the alcohol monitoring technology for suitable offenders this measure. I beg to move. released on licence. This has provided considerable insight into how alcohol monitoring can support the management of risk and rehabilitation. On this basis, we consider that we have a good Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, evidence base around the utility and practice” there is widespread agreement that a great deal of of alcohol-monitoring requirements crime is related to and fuelled by alcohol. Indeed, “which has informed our plans for England and Wales roll-out.” Members of your Lordships’ House have been saying for many years, in debate after debate, that much What the Ministry could not assess was the impact offending in this country is related to excess alcohol of alcohol monitoring requirements on reoffending. and drug abuse, so the passage of Section 76 of the Indeed, paragraph 29 of the committee’s report quoted LASPO Act was unsurprising. There is also widespread the department’s response to Questions. It said: agreement that we all should support measures to “Reoffending findings will be available well in advance of reduce the consumption of alcohol in relation to crime, commencing roll out and will inform the delivery of AAMR. and thus alcohol-related crime. However, it is our view that the findings we already have from the” The alcohol abstinence and monitoring requirements, which I shall call simply alcohol monitoring requirements, pilots use electronic tagging technology to ensure that offenders “indicate that AAMR is an effective sentence option. It is the reduce or eliminate alcohol consumption for a period. department’s intention to assess impacts much more substantially, The essential elements for the application of Section 76 including to inform the better targeting of resources to address of the LASPO Act are: first, that the offences concerned alcohol harms, when we roll out AAMR.” are alcohol-related; secondly, that during the period of The reality is that assessing the effect on reoffending the order the offender will take no alcohol, or alcohol will have to await medium-term evaluation of the reduced to a specified level; thirdly,that the consumption behaviour of offenders who have been placed under of alcohol will be electronically tagged; fourthly, that these monitoring requirements. The Government appear the period of the requirement will not exceed 120 days; to have accepted that in their impact assessment. GC 5 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment GC 6

3.45 pm the proposal interesting, it seems premature as the House currently has very little means of assessing whether the MoJ’s assertions are I suggest that the problem is that there are two obvious overly optimistic.” reasons why the pilots may give little indication of the long-term effect of alcohol monitoring requirements. I simply ask the Minister: why the rush to judgment? The first is that these requirements impose, or will impose, The point of piloting, provided for in the enabling a short-term break—it is significant that the noble and legislation, was to give us the information to decide on learned Lord used that term—or short-term reduction the merits and effectiveness of alcohol monitoring in alcohol consumption. In other words, they run for a requirements before they were rolled out. I suggest limited period only, during which time the offender is that implementation without that information is not reducing or eliminating alcohol intake. The pilots tell what the legislation intended and is wrong in principle. us nothing about the likelihood of such an offender resuming excessive alcohol consumption after that Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister break; that is particularly true where the break or for his explanation of the order. I concur very strongly reduction takes place without treatment or guidance with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Marks. from probation officers or other agencies that can help The documentation produced about the order makes the offender. There is also no evidence concerning the it clear that the proposals are meant to punish the effect of resuming alcohol consumption on reoffending, offender by ensuring that they do not consume alcohol. except for the general elements we know—for example, However, as has rightly been said, there is little to back that much crime is alcohol-related. that up. What will be the role of the probation service Secondly, the reason why the requirements may be in supporting those involved, given the pressures on said to work is that they enforce the break or reduction the service to which the noble Lord referred? For that in alcohol consumption. That is precisely because matter, what is the role of the NHS? If one of its electronic tagging is effective. Let no one kid themselves patients is involved, will doctors or general practitioners that the 94% compliance rate—it is 97% in the north—is also be involved and invited to support individuals the result of an offender deciding to go without drink. through the period during which the order applies? It It is not. It is a result of the offender being tagged and would seem sensible for another professional who knows knowing that they will be caught drinking alcohol and the person in question to offer support, in addition to sentenced for breach in the event that alcohol is consumed. the very overstretched probation service. These results are not the consequence of voluntary It is clear that, while the proposal is seen in the abstinence. One can conclude that it is more likely in impact assessment as the event of these requirements being in place that the “punitive as well as rehabilitative”, unwilling short-term abstainer will resume consumption there needs to be clear evidence that adequate support when the enforced break is over. That is as true of the is available for those going through the process.Otherwise, merely weak abstainer, rather than the unwilling one. it may be simply the temporary response to which the I stress that this concern is heightened by the state noble Lord, Lord Marks, referred, without any guarantee of the probation service.As we know,it is under-resourced of a significant impact on future conduct. The objectives and, frankly, in crisis—if not chaos—according to all described in the impact assessment’s limited explanation the reports on its current functioning, so support for of the proposal, which says that AAMRs offenders with past alcohol-related offences is not “are meant to punish the offender by ensuring they do not good enough. If it is not good enough, these monitoring consume alcohol during the period in which the AAMR is in requirements will be unlikely to help. force”, The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee believe may be attained, but the long-term situation does not that it is seem to be addressed by anything alongside this order. I therefore invite the Minister to say what discussions, “inappropriate for the House to be asked to decide on further if any, have taken place with the Department of Health roll-out before information on the reoffending rate is available.” and Social Care on what support can be given to I agree. patients of general practitioners who are in this position. The impact assessment mentions other uncertainties. Without that support, the chances of an enduring response In paragraph 46, under the heading “Risks and Sensitivity are somewhat limited. Analysis”, it says: “The analysis in this IA has a very high degree of uncertainty Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab): My Lords, I do not because it is heavily based on assumptions where there is limited information”. want to be repetitive, but I will add a couple of extra thoughts. No one has spoken against the principle of I interpose that the greatest uncertainty is that to these orders, or of this legislation. The concerns are which I have spoken: the effect on reoffending rates. more about the adequacy of the rollout process, The impact assessment goes on to set out two further particularly the information that has been made available. uncertainties, I note that the legislative framework was passed in “in particular about how sentencing behaviour might change if 2012 and, as the Minister said, the final rollout across AAMR were rolled out, including potential changes in the the jurisdiction will not be until 2023 or 2024. That is a combination of requirements given.” very long time between the passing of law and order Those are also good points. legislation and rollout across England and Wales. The The committee’s conclusion was almost as severe as piloting of such orders is a very good idea if it is done any that one reads from committees at this time: well and the data is independently evaluated and shared “the House is being asked to approve the programme on the basis with the public, professionals and so on. However, if of very limited information. This is unacceptable. While we find the pilots, followed by incremental rollout, go on for GC 7 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment GC 8

[BARONESS CHAKRABARTI] noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said, the primary too long, it creates a different legal and punitive regime legislation was enacted in 2012. The pilots were completed for people across the jurisdiction, with the potential only last year. For how many more years are we to under Article 14 for arguing that people are not being analyse the data before we commit to rolling out what treated equally in sentencing and rehabilitation. Does appears on the face of it, and on the basis of the pilots the Minister have thoughts on what good governance already carried out, to be a very successful programme? looks like and the appropriate balance between On the issue of resuming alcohol consumption, experimentation and piloting new orders, on the one raised by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, yes, that is hand, and equal treatment in sentencing across the always a risk, but there are two benefits. First, there is jurisdiction, on the other? the immediate benefit of taking someone off alcohol In the light of previous contributions, I am sure the for a period after they have committed an offence, one Minister will say whether he now thinks that the concerns that may well have been induced by excessive alcohol addressedbytheSecondaryLegislationScrutinyCommittee consumption. Secondly, there is the potential for them have been met. As the noble Lord, Lord Marks, said, to learn from the experience that they do not wish to thecommentsaboutlimitedinformationbeing“unacceptable” imbibe alcohol to excess in future, in order to modify are very strong. I also hope that the Minister will their behaviour. However, I accept that you cannot respond to what my noble friend said about the tension guarantee that. whereby such an order is described as being both a The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised the question punishment and a rehabilitation measure in the context of medical assistance. Let me be clear: an order of this of abstinence. It is hard to see how telling offenders kind will not be made where an individual is alcohol that their abstinence is a punishment is going to achieve dependent. It is difficult to see how you could bring in voluntary abstinence and rehabilitation at the end of and use doctors in the context of someone who is not the relatively short enforced abstinence. alcohol dependent but is being taken off alcohol for I am also interested in the choice of pilot areas, 120 days because of a violent crime committed under from the point of view of equal treatment and Article 14, the influence of alcohol. I find it difficult to understand particularly given that there is such a long period what their contribution would be. On the other hand, before national rollout. How are areas chosen for such in cases where someone is alcohol dependent, provision pilots? Is the same methodology applied to both datasets is made through the Community Sentence Treatment to aid evaluation? Is there an independent element in Requirement Programme for Health and Justice partners the evaluation? Many of the comments seem to come to work together to deal with such dependency, be it from enthusiastic stakeholders and the offenders them- on alcohol or drugs. selves, many of whom said that they would drink less at At the end of the day, we have to bear in mind that the end of the process. With respect, they would say that, we intend to roll out this programme on the basis of wouldn’tthey?Whatisthenon-profit-driven,independent the probation areas, so we will learn even as we roll out element that does not involve those who are monitoring the programme between now and 2023 how effective it the orders, or the offenders themselves? is being. But we have already seen the results of the original pilots,and I suggest that they really are impressive. 4 pm In the circumstances, we consider that now is the time Lord Keen of Elie: I am grateful to noble Lords for for us to respond to the issue of alcohol-related offending their contributions to this debate. I will address a and alcohol-related violent crime by taking the steps number of the points that have been raised. First, the proposed in the order. It is in these circumstances that results of the second pilot in Humberside were known I commend the draft instrument— to the ministry as it brought forward this order. The results have now been published and they are quite Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames: My Lords, before compelling. We are talking about a compliance rate the noble and learned Lord sits down, is it intended well over 90% in both pilots. Indeed, it was 98% in the that the alcohol monitoring requirements be imposed case of the London pilot and 97.4% in respect of as a generality in the first stages of the rollout, together Humberside. They were carried out over different with rehabilitative requirements, so that the probation periods and applied in the context of different offences. service will be involved, or is the stand-alone imposition That gave us a spectrum of results, but all were very of alcohol monitoring requirements likely, as in the encouraging. Of course, we should consider not only London programme? It seems to me that there may be the immediate importance and impact of the orders— a substantial difference in the effect on future behaviour. because they stop people taking alcohol for a period of up to 120 days—we should like to be informed whether there is an ongoing impact. In the Humberside Lord Keen of Elie: My understanding is that the pilot, about 81% of those who had undergone such an monitoring will not be carried out by or related to the order were contemplating either stopping taking alcohol probation service; it will be carried out independently. or reducing their alcohol intake at the end of the But clearly, the justice system will have an overall period. It was clearly having an impact, therefore, on picture because, where someone is in breach of the people’s intentions—but they were only intentions, of order, that individual will be brought back to court. course. May I just clarify a point I made earlier? The period As regards reoffending, it will take time to go 2023-24 is when we intend to reach steady state and to through that process. As the noble Lord, Lord Marks, have completed the rollout. The rollout itself is intended himself said, that is something for the middle term, to take place over the next 12 months. I hope that not something we can immediately analyse. As the assists noble Lords. GC 9 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun GC 10

Lord Beecham: What does the Minister envisage the As part of its response to the gravity of these role of the probation service to be under this new findings, the Treasury imposed an asset freeze in January arrangement? 2016 on Lugovoy and Kovtun by making a freezing order under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. A second order was imposed in January Lord Keen of Elie: Clearly, probation staff will have 2018 which expired at the end of 18 January this year. access to the monitoring data and will therefore use it The order that I am commending to the House was to inform their supervision of individuals who are therefore put in place to ensure there was no gap in the under licence, for example. freezing measures that have been enforced against Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun since 2016. Lord Beecham: Has the matter been discussed with Under Section 8 of the Act, the duration of a the probation service, and does it have the resources to freezing order is limited to two years. Since 2018, as do this? It is very stretched, and this will be an additional required by Section 7 of the Act, the Treasury has kept responsibility,presumably.The question therefore arises: the order under review. In May 2019 the Treasury can it meet it? reviewed the facts of the case against the relevant statutory criteria and concluded that the criteria continued Lord Keen of Elie: There is no suggestion that it will to be met in respect of both individuals. not have the resources to address this matter. It will Prior to the expiry of the 2018 order, the Treasury receive data in circumstances where there will be some again reviewed the facts of the case and decided to 400 active monitoring requirements at any one time. make a new order to maintain the asset freeze against That, I respectfully suggest, is not an overwhelming these two individuals. The Treasury believes that making imposition in addition to the demands made upon the a new order is an appropriate and proportionate measure probation service. to take. The relevant conditions required to be met, as set out at Section 4 of the Act, are still being met. In Motion agreed. this case, these are that “the Treasury reasonably believe that … action constituting a threat to the life or property of one or more nationals of the United Kingdom or residents of the United Kingdom has been or Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun is likely to be taken” Freezing Order 2020 by a person or persons resident in a country or territory Considered in Grand Committee outside the UK. The freezing order is one of a limited number of 4.08 pm measures available to the UK authorities to act directly Moved by The Earl of Courtown against Lugovoy and Kovtun. We continue to believe that it acts as a deterrent and a signal that the Government That the Grand Committee do consider the Andrey will not tolerate hostile acts on British soil and will Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2020. take firm steps to defend our national security and rule of law. The new order maintains a robust approach Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Secondary on Russia, in line with our Russia strategy,and maintains Legislation Scrutiny Committee unity of approach with the United States, which also sanctions these two individuals. Continued close The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, first, I co-ordination is a vital part of our joint effort in would like to draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact countering the Russian threat. that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee Were we not to maintain asset freezes against Lugovoy described this order as an “instrument of interest” in and Kovtun we would risk sending a damaging signal its third report of 30 January. The order was laid before that the consequences of murder in the United Kingdom the House on 17 January under the “made affirmative” are limited and timebound if you choose to evade the procedure and came into force on 19 January.It maintains UK justice system by remaining overseas.Not maintaining a freeze of any funds or assets that the two individuals asset freezes against these individuals would be likely hold in the United Kingdom or with any United to be perceived as the UK softening its stance towards Kingdom-incorporated entities, denying them access Russia. Furthermore, it would risk signalling to the to the UK financial system and prohibiting UK persons Russian state that the UK is looking to normalise from making funds available to them. relations. This would be contrary to and directly The order was made because in 2016 an independent undermining of Her Majesty’s Government’s consistent inquiry, chaired by Sir Robert Owen, concluded that message that there can be no change in UK-Russia Mr Alexander Litvinenko was deliberately poisoned relations until Russia desists from attacks that undermine in 2006 by Lugovoy and Kovtun through the use of international treaties and security. polonium-210. The inquiry also concluded that there The current bilateral relationship is not the one we was a “strong probability” that Mr Litvinenko, an want. We continue to remain open to a different and ex-KGB and ex-FSB officer and critic of the Russian co-operative relationship, but this depends on Russia Government, was murdered on the order of the FSB—the stopping its destabilising activity, which threatens the Russian domestic secret service—and furthermore that UK and its allies. We engage with Russia on a guarded the killing was “probably approved” by then head of basis, defending UK national security where necessary the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev,and by the Russian President, while ensuring we address the global security issues Vladimir Putin. of the day. GC 11 Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun[LORDS] Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun GC 12

[THE EARL OF COURTOWN] The only explanation offered in the Explanatory In summary,the Government believe that maintaining Memorandum is in paragraphs 6.2 and 7.3. Paragraph 6.2 asset freezes against Lugovoy and Kovtun is an states: appropriate and proportionate measure to take and “The Treasury believe that this Order will be an effective that not to do so would run counter to the national deterrent to prevent similar activities being undertaken again.” interest. I hope noble Lords will join me in supporting Paragraph 7.3 states that the order. I beg to move. “Parliament will not tolerate activities of this sort, and constitutes a deterrent to these persons and others from undertaking similar activities in the future.” Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab): My Lords, I hear Do the Government seriously suggest that the GRU the noble Earl, but I hope he will understand that I am or the other elements of the Russian secret service will not wholly convinced by the case he has deployed for be deterred by an order of this sort? The facts clearly continuing the order in respect of the two Russians. suggest otherwise. Indeed, I question whether it serves any useful purpose. I cite the Salisbury outrage, when the GRU sent We are dealing with a freezing order in respect of two men in the hope of murdering Mr Skripal. In those two people, prohibiting persons from making effect, they murdered an ordinary British citizen through funds available for their benefit. In my judgment, it is their negligence in discarding that vial. Remember, unlikely that the pair are dreading the result of this those GRU agents purported to have an interest in debate. medieval ecclesiastical architecture. They said that I ask three key questions. My first question is: why they thought that Salisbury cathedral was an appropriate now? The short answer is of course that this is the place for them to visit in this country, so they visited it second order made against the two men following the to continue their interest in such architecture. It was Owen report in January 2016. The order has expired absolute nonsense. They came here with a firm purpose. and must now be renewed. The question must arise: at There was clearly no deterrent in that case. It was what point will this two-year cycle end? What criteria Mr Putin who, in his press conferences and elsewhere, did the Treasury use in looking at the case for its tried to laugh off—almost—the evidence, saying in continuation? Are we to anticipate that this two-year effect that all traitors may well suffer the same fate. We continuation will go on ad infinitum? also know that a number of Chechen opposition people The Government have clearly put much effort into have been killed in France in the same way. Where is the order’s renewal, as shown by the timetable I just this deterrent effect that the Treasury found so convincing? mentioned and some of the many committees that Tobe fair,in paragraph 12.1, the Treasury concedes that: have looked into it. The instrument was made on “The continued listing of these two names is likely to have 17 January. It was laid before both Houses. A Motion negligible impact.” to approve has been made. It has been before several The use of “negligible impact” probably overstates the similar committees. There are also the English votes effect. for English laws certification, the Secondary Legislation So, why are we here? Could not someone in the Scrutiny Committee, the Joint Committee on Statutory Treasury have looked at the facts of the case and what Instruments, the Delegated Legislation Committee and happened afterwards and have said, “Look, stop. This so forth. It is a pretty formidable series of consideration. order is no longer justified”? Are we going to consider I wonder whether it smacks a little of a job creation the charade of extending these two years indefinitely? exercise and whether the Treasury is doing its job Finally, I want to ask about the Magnitsky clauses properly in asking whether there is value for money in in the 2018 Act. Why are they not now put into effect? what we are doing. For example, before or after the The clauses relate to asset freezes and visa bans. Had order made on 19 January, was any effort made—if we they been in effect, they could have been used in this consider this so important—to persuade other countries case. I accept that the Government say that an SI will to follow suit in respect of these two Russian gentlemen? be put down to bring forward the Magnitsky clauses. They argue that they were restrained by EU membership. 4.15 pm That is nonsense on stilts. There is no such restraint by The second question I pose is this: why are we here EU membership. If there were, why have the Baltic at all? Has anyone in the Treasury, for example, asked countries—also EU members—had Magnitsky clauses the basic question on behalf of law and on taxpayers’ of this sort, on the same lines as legislation in Canada behalf: is this expenditure worth while? Is it worth the and the USA and that being considered in Australia? effort of time and finance? I put this question to the The EU did not in anywayrestrain this.The Government’s noble Earl: is there a scintilla of evidence that the two argument is wholly without merit. I pay tribute to all men have any assets in the UK on to which the those who, on a cross-party basis, led by Andrew Treasury might latch? Is there any possible way in Mitchell MP,persuaded the Government, rather against which any financial institution within this country’s their will, to put forward those Magnitsky clauses. The jurisdiction is likely to offer any loans or any form of Government’s best argument is that they are doing financial help to these two men, who are GRUoperatives? this because they are doing it. I only wish that someone Are they likely either to seek or be given any such help, had the nous and courage to say, “Enough is enough. given their lack of creditworthiness? Otherwise, surely We should stop at this point”. this is a pointless exercise. As we know, Russia will not extradite any of its nationals, let alone those like these Baroness Kramer (LD): My Lords, I believe that on two gentlemen—that is, operatives of the Russian secret balance it is necessary to renew the order, simply state engaged in a clandestine mission. because not to renew it would send the wrong message, GC 13 Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun GC 14 but I agree with many of the comments made by the considered to be very successful individuals who are noble Lord, Lord Anderson. I spoke on this issue back not short of the ready,and therefore have the opportunity in 2018—I will not repeat the whole of that speech, as through various mechanisms to exploit financial services. that would be to test the patience of the Committee. I If the order is to mean anything, there must be some used that opportunity to paytribute to Marina Litvinenko, enforcement capability to it, and I am inquiring whether who fought so hard against the Home Secretary of the there is. day for the public inquiry that should have come I noticed that the debate that we had in 2018 was in almost automatically but did not. The reality is that, February, towards the end of the month. To reinforce because of the many delays, Andrey Lugovoy and the point of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, that this Dmitri Kovtun had years in which to move out any is not really a deterrent of any sort, the attack on the assets that they had in the UK or within the scope of Skripals happened on 4 March that year, days later. the UK. From the moment that the order was established, That says everything about the weakness of the deterrent it was unlikely that it would have any personal impact effect. It would be incumbent on the Treasury to on them, but at least it sent some sort of message. rewrite its note in the light of the Salisbury poisonings. At the time, I asked the Minister of the day to be We need to pay great respect in understanding the sure that all assets were encompassed by the various suffering not only of the Skripals but of Dawn Sturgess, definitions, including crypto-assets, and I received an who died as a consequence. assurance that they were. Is there an ongoing mechanism I also wondered—I ought to know the answer to to make sure that, as new financial mechanisms develop, this but do not, so I am simply inquiring—whether the they are covered and automatically caught by the same orders now apply to the two individuals identified order? That would be a useful discipline to have in as being involved in the Skripal poisonings, Colonel these instances. Anatoliy Chepiga and Dr Alexander Mishkin, both of I was also concerned to know to what extent these the GRU. If this is a principle, it ought at least to be two individuals would be able to make use of Crown more broadly applied. I very much agree with the dependencies and overseas territories, many of which noble Lord, Lord Anderson, that we need to implement do not have a public register that would enable any the legislation passed in both Houses. civil society person to identify whether they were A more robust response to the poisoning of Litvinenko making use of financial services capabilities in those and the attempted poisoning of Skripal is fundamentally locations. Without that, the UK or the enforcement necessary. Will we wait for a third or fourth poisoning arm, presumably the Metropolitan Police, would need before we start looking at more senior figures within to initiate an investigation into assets in the names of the Russian establishment? Clearly, all the people we the two individuals and into any shell companies that have mentioned who face freezing orders were under they might be involved in or any other kind of entities orders from far more senior people. It is a great that were making use of those Crown dependencies weakness in our position not to have recognised that and overseas territories. I am not sure how active that much more clearly and to have considered whether, if process is and whether we are serious about making we believe that constraining people from using UK sure that these two individuals are at least excluded financial services has an impact on their behaviour, from UK-related financial capacity. making that work up the chain will be a lot more I also asked about property ownership. As the useful than simply applying it to the individuals who Minister will be aware, we have public registers of we have been able to identify but who are, frankly, in beneficial owners, but not yet in the case of property, every case, pretty small fry. although I believe that that process is in train. I very much hope that he can assure me that the necessary 4.30 pm monitoring is in place to ensure that neither of those individuals, or the shell companies that they use, has Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, it is not the managed to get around the system by using the loophole intention of the Labour Front Bench to oppose this of the absence of beneficial ownership. order nor to rehearse the merits of the case. However, as a matter of principle, I would like the Minister to Lord Anderson of Swansea: Surely the argument explain why he had to use the “made affirmative” put forward by the noble Baroness would have some procedure. When a two-year order is about to expire, merit if one had any suspicion that those two individuals the one thing you know is that you would have had had any form of asset—be it property or finance—or two years’ notice of that. It is not clear why a perfectly any possibility of obtaining a loan, given their lack of normal order could not have been made. This procedure creditworthiness. should be used only in emergency circumstances.

Baroness Kramer: I think it is understood that those The Earl of Courtown: I thank all noble Lords for two individuals at some point had assets in the UK. their contribution to this short debate. I will do my Hence my frustration that the long delay and the best to cover all the points raised but should I miss any public inquiry meant that they had every opportunity out, I will write to noble Lords. The noble Baroness, to remove those assets. We cannot guarantee that they Lady Kramer, asked how the asset freeze affects real used them, but they certainly had the opportunity. I property—land, buildings et cetera. She also mentioned fear that, with the way that various shell companies cryptocurrencies, which she had referred to in the work, it is not as simple as looking at one individual’s previous debate, two years ago. Under an asset freeze, creditworthiness: there are many other ways. I assume all funds and economic resources must be frozen. No that these two people, within their own context, are funds or economic resources can be made available, GC 15 Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun[LORDS] Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun GC 16

[THE EARL OF COURTOWN] constrained by the European Union. I pose the same directly or indirectly, to a designated person or for their question again: do the Government have any suspicion benefit. To do so may be a criminal offence. Funds at all that these two individuals mentioned have generally mean financial assets and benefits of every any assets, or any other form of property or whatever, kind. Economic resources—this relates to the noble in the UK? If not, this is surely a totally pointless Baroness’s point about property—generally refers to exercise. assets of every kind, tangible or intangible, moveable or immoveable, which are not funds but which may be used to obtain funds, goods or services. This includes, The Earl of Courtown: As the noble Lord is well but is not limited to, property. As confirmed in the aware, “shortly” is a term often used in this position previous debates, crypto-assets are also covered by this. from the Dispatch Box. I cannot give him any more details on that at the moment. He also raised another Baroness Kramer: I do not want to create a problem point which he had already raised in his earlier speech; for the noble Earl, because this may be outside his I will come to that. general scope, but where there is no public register of Another point raised by noble Lords was on the beneficial interests, the problem is that civil society GRU in the UK and what we have done about that. As groups—which do a lot of the monitoring on behalf I mentioned, there was asset freezing following the of us all—cannot see through to identify whether Salisbury event, but we have exposed the role of the there is abuse. In those particular circumstances, the GRU in the despicable attack on Salisbury. We have only way to find out whether somebody has acquired exposed its operatives and the methods it used. The property in the UK, which will be under various other actions of the GRU are a threat to all our allies and we names, shell companies, and whatever else, is by active have shared the information with them. Wehave stepped intervention by UK enforcement authorities. Until we up our collective efforts to disrupt and dismantle the get the public register, that is limited. That was the GRU networks in this country, with the expulsion of question I was trying to focus on. these Russian members. The Earl of Courtown: The noble Baroness’s point The noble Lord also asked whether there was any is basically about transparency. I do not have any evidence of these individuals actually owning assets in information on that issue to hand, but I will write to the United Kingdom. Her Majesty’s Treasury has the noble Baroness. received no information about frozen funds in respect of designations in place against Kovtun and Lugovoy. The next point was about a link between the 2018 However, the asset freeze continues to deny those order and the Salisbury event. As noble Lords are individuals access to the UK financial sector. Beyond aware, the murder of Alexander Litvinenko and the the financial impact, this order is part of a package of attack on Salisbury are part of a pattern of Russian measures which send a clear message that such illegal aggression over the past decade, which includes its acts will not be tolerated. actions in Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine, and campaigns of reckless and irresponsible cyberattacks. We took a In the absence of bringing the killers of Litvinenko range of measures following the attacks in Salisbury, to trial in the UK, the Government believe that it is including co-ordinating the expulsion of 153 Russian important and appropriate to maintain these measures intelligence officers, the largest mass expulsion in history. against the two individuals—including the asset freeze, We continue to believe that, in conjunction with the the European arrest warrants and the Interpol red other measures which the Government have taken in notices—as a deterrent against others conducting such response to the murder of Alexander Litvinenko, this unacceptable actions in future. We continue to believe freezing order sends a message to others who might that this freezing order sends a message to others, who consider committing similar acts in future that the UK might consider committing similar acts in future, that Government will not tolerate such action. After the the United Kingdom will not tolerate such action. Salisbury attack, four Russian individuals were sanctioned Despite the poisoning of Sergei Skripal in Salisbury in under the Chemical Weapons (Asset-Freezing) and March 2018, we cannot discount the possibility that Miscellaneous Amendments Regulations 2018 for their the 2016 and 2018 orders have had a deterrent effect roles in transporting and using a toxic nerve agent— on the Russian state, or indeed on other states. Novichok—in Salisbury in March 2018. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked at the beginning The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, raised a number of his speech at which point these orders will end. of issues relating to his thoughts on whether it was Under Section 7 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and worth while going through this exercise. Obviously, Security Act 2001, the Treasury is required to keep a Her Majesty’s Government feel that it is, but he also freezing order under review. In accordance with this mentioned the Magnitsky sanctions and asked why we obligation under Section 7, in May 2019 Her Majesty’s were not introducing the asset freeze under them. The Treasury conducted a review of the facts of the case Government have announced their intention to establish against these individuals. The Home Office and the UK-autonomous global human rights Magnitsky-style Foreign and Commonwealth Office were consulted as sanctions, as he said. These will be coming forward part of that review,which established that the then-existing shortly, once we have left the European Union—which freezing order was an appropriate measure to maintain. I imagine we have. The new freezing order will lapse two years after it is made, as set out in Section 8 of the 2001 Act. Her Lord Anderson of Swansea: How shortly is shortly? Majesty’s Treasury will continue to monitor the evidence Since the 2018 Act, the Government have had two and review the facts of the case against these two years in which to implement this. They are not in fact individuals while the order is in force. GC 17 Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Public Bodies Order 2019 GC 18

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the from the National Loans Fund to local authorities made affirmative procedure. Section 10 of the Anti- and other specified bodies. The PWLB operates within terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 requires that a policy framework set by Her Majesty’s Treasury and freezing orders under it are made using this procedure. delegates the practicalities of lending to the UK Debt The procedure allows for immediate action followed Management Office. by debate in the next 28 days. If Parliament does not It is important to note that, since 2004, all borrowing agree the order, the asset freeze falls away. Freezing decisions have been devolved to the local authorities orders under the Act are designed for situations in under the prudential regime. The commissioners no which events require an urgent response and/or in longer assess applications and retain only a ceremonial which there is a risk of asset flight. The original 2016 role, serving in office so that central government lending order against Lugovoy and Kovtun was made one day complies with statute, rather than serving any executive after Sir Robert Owen’s inquiry reported, concluding purpose. The recruitment of commissioners for these that the two individuals had deliberately poisoned posts has predictably become more difficult as the Litvinenko. The Treasury continues to believe that the role has diminished over time. Were the board of conditions for making the order set out in this Act commissioners to become inquorate, the PWLB would remain satisfied. be unable to lend or collect repayments. This would have substantial repercussions on local authority Motion agreed. budgets and financing plans, jeopardising essential capital works. Public Bodies (Abolition of Public Works 4.45 pm Loan Commissioners) Order 2019 These critical concerns will persist while the governance Considered in Grand Committee arrangements of the PWLB continue to go unreformed. This draft order will put this essential lending function 4.41 pm on a secure statutory footing, giving local authorities Moved by The Earl of Courtown the reassurance of a lending function, and so supporting their delivery of value-for-money, long-term capital That the Grand Committee do consider the Public investment initiatives, strengthening the Government’s Bodies(Abolitionof PublicWorksLoanCommissioners) commitment to levelling up. Order 2019. As is usual for this type of legislation, the draft Relevant documents: 2nd Report from the Joint order has been put to the SLSC, the JCSI and the TSC Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2019, for scrutiny. None of the committees requested the 3rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny enhanced scrutiny procedure available under the Act. Committee,Session 2019, 1st Report from the Secondary Further, the SLSC report states that Her Majesty’s Legislation Scrutiny Committee Treasury demonstrated that the proposals will clarify “the governance framework and improve accountability by making Ministers directly accountable to Parliament for” The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, the draft order, which is being introduced under the Public PWLB loans. Bodies Act 2011, abolishes the office of the Public Finally, I wish to thank current and former Public Works Loan Commissioners and transfers their power Works Loan Commissioners for the services that they to lend and all other functions to Her Majesty’sTreasury, have rendered, on an entirely voluntary basis, to the including interests in land, liabilities, property and all benefit of the citizens of this country. I commend this other rights. This draft order does not affect the instrument to the Committee. I beg to move. essential role of the Public Works Loan Board as a lender to local authorities. Instead, it will resolve Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I remind the Committee ambiguities in the governance and accountability that I am a vice-president of the Local Government arrangements of this vital body to ensure that it can Association. continue to support local capital investment across the This is an appropriate measure for all the reasons country. the Minister set out. Indeed, the responses to the As noble Lords may be aware, the PWLB was formal consultation indicate broad agreement. In formalised by an Act of Parliament in 1817, and has paragraph 7.14 of the explanatory document, there is supported local authorities in England, Scotland and a reference to annual reporting to Parliament, which Wales through major historical events, from the sounds as if it is going to be enhanced. I suggest that Napoleonic Wars and the formation of Trafalgar Square when the Government report to Parliament, they comment to our recovery from two world wars, as well as on whether they see the level and nature of borrowing the construction and maintenance of essential infra- causing any concern, generally or specifically, in relation structure projects. By funding public utility and sanitary to a single council. It is important that local councils improvements, conservation of harbours and housing do not turn into property companies, with council developments, the PWLB has created employment services becoming an ancillary function. That would prospects and enhanced the quality of life for our citizens be a very rare event, but it is something one has to over generations. guard against. It is reported in the media that councils Over the years, the role and legal basis of the have spent around £5.5 billion in property acquisitions PWLB has transformed. It is now a statutory body of over the past three years, with a quarter of that being up to 12 independent commissioners that issues loans invested in the retail sector. Issues arising include GC 19 Public Bodies Order 2019 [LORDS] Public Bodies Order 2019 GC 20

[LORD SHIPLEY] It is important for us to have much more independent whether they may have paid more for the property reporting from the Treasury if it is to take over this they have acquired than the market value. Is there any role in name as well as in fact. Parliament ought to be evidence of local authorities borrowing from the Public much more aware of these matters—not because we Works Loan Board and paying over the odds for what should be interfering with local authority decisions in they are purchasing? single cases, but if there is a general change where we Secondly, it is important for the Government to are seeing some real concerns, it is important that report on whether there is a danger of assets declining Parliament should be warned of it because it could in value. We have recently seen some of the problems have serious effects in a number of local authorities that there are with retail shopping centres. I find it that are seeing their purchases as a mechanism for entirely understandable that a local council might supporting both the government resources that they wish to invest in its own retail shopping centres or in get and their own local rates. property within its own borders, but I find it harder to I hope that we can have an undertaking from my understand why some councils are investing in places noble friend that the Treasury will look with great care a very long way from their immediate responsibilities in its report and think seriously about enabling Parliament in their area. to take some interest, not in individual decision-making Finally, there is social housing. As Members will but in the overall issues thrown up by local authorities’ know, last year, there was a 1% increase in the interest investment from borrowings from the Public Works rate for loans from the Public Works Loan Board. I Loan Board. am interested to know what the Government think the impact of that is on the ability of local councils to Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, the Labour Front build social housing. Most Public Works Loan Board Bench does not intend to oppose these statutory borrowing now relates to social housing. The removal instruments but the essence of the case for getting rid of the borrowing cap on housing revenue accounts of the commissioners is that, essentially, they do not was welcome, but the rise in the Public Works Loan do anything and taking them away will have no impact Board interest rate may have negated some of that or a benign impact. That is quite an attractive argument, positive impact. How do the Government plan to until it alerts one to the question of how these loans judge the correct level of interest rate that encourages are actually managed and controlled. the building of social housing? So, my first question is: can the Minister flesh out a bit more how loans to local authorities are managed Lord Deben (Con): My Lords, I follow the noble and controlled? I realise there is a letter from John Glen Lord, Lord Shipley, on the first of his points. It is a that may answer this question but there is a crucial great pity to abolish things that have been going on for difference between a letter that floats around among so long, but if we are going to do it, it is perfectly Peers and a record in Hansard. Local authorities will sensible. I am not really arguing about that. However, be reading this debate—poor souls—and a clear statement there is an opportunity here to make sure that there is by the Minister in the record is worthwhile, so can he better understanding about some of the decisions that explain how loans to local authorities will now be are made. managed and controlled? I declare an interest because one of my businesses Secondly, I come to the exact point that was made advises companies on sustainable development in the previously. I do not know, but it sounds as though it is sense of building. Obviously, we see what the market true that some local authorities have been taking loans for development is; it is very noticeable that, on quite a and investing their money in property, perhaps as a number of occasions, developers have decided that the straightforward business exercise to support their price being offered for a particular development has other incomes. If the answer to that is yes—it seems been too great but a local authority has been prepared that it is—is this practice legal, or at least is it seen as to pay that price. It may be that the local authority is undesirable? In the light of the fact that it has been clever enough to be cleverer than the developer, but in debated in other places, has it now been stopped? the one case, it is quite a difficult profession, and in the My next question is: whywere interest rates raised—last other case, it is an ancillary activity and sometimes autumn, I believe—from 1.8% to 2.8%? I do not know one notices a certain belief by the local authority that the system, so does this apply to current loans or just it knows better. I am not saying that that is always true to new ones? but I suggest, as the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, rightly said, that it is a question we have to ask. My worry is that, with the very serious downturn in The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, I thank noble Lords shopping, particularly in the kind of malls that have for their contributions and questions. been bought by local authorities, it must be true—it is My noble friend Lord Deben asked how Parliament not a question of asking whether it is true—that quite will be kept informed. I may have to write to him with a number of local authorities have spent above the the exact details on that issue, but I will take it back to odds and now hold significant assets that may be the department and try to get some clarification on it. worth considerably less than they actually paid for First, I will deal with the point made by the noble them. To give them some uncharged advice, if I may: it Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and explain how loans to ain’t going to get any better. This is not an area where authorities will now be managed and controlled. The sensible people would invest, except in circumstances statutory instrument does not change how loans are where they really did have a plan for the future that is managed or controlled. The purpose of the statutory very different from others. instrument is to resolve to administrative risk around GC 21 Public Bodies Order 2019[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Scotland Act 1998 Order 2020 GC 22 the recruitment and maintenance of a quorate board In his intervention, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, of commissioners, as I said earlier. There is no change asked for an explanation of how loans to local authorities to existing debt or to lending terms.Day-to-day operation will now be managed and controlled. Decisions over of the PWLB will continue to be managed by the Debt whether to borrow and how to spend borrowing are Management Office. No action is required by local devolved to individual local authorities. Each council authorities. The Government consulted on this change must appoint a qualified finance officer and have in 2016 and found widespread support. regard to statutory guidance published by MCHLG and CIPFA. This is called the prudential regime, as I Lord Tunnicliffe: With respect, that does not answer mentioned earlier. As decision-making is local, the the question. To be fair, I gave him a few hours’ notice PWLB does not ask what loans are for. If there is of it. Subsequent questions suggest that it has not anything more I can add on that, I will write to the gone exactly right—that this money has not been used noble Lord. for general purposes. I cannot take a view on that The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also asked unless I know how the Debt Management Office does about the interest rate being raised. There is a statutory its job. For example, what criteria does it use? How limit on the total amount of PWLB loans that can be much direct control does it have, or is it a big bag of outstanding at one time. Some local authorities money? I know that I should know that, but given the substantially increased their use of the PWLB in 2019. number of portfolios I have, please forgive me for not If PWLB borrowing had reached the statutory limit, it knowing the answer to my own question. would have effectively been unable to issue new loans. That would have been very disruptive to local authority The Earl of Courtown: I understand that the noble capital plans. To ensure that lending continued to be Lord is for ever on his feet on a wide range of issues. I available, the Government legislated to increase the am probably putting the cart before the horse. If we go statutory lending limit from £85 billion to £95 billion to the cart, I will come on to aspects of the management and raised the interest rate on new loans by one of the governance relating to these loans. percentage point. In making this change, the Treasury The noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Tunnicliffe, restored rates to levels available in 2018. The cost of and my noble friend Lord Deben referred to property PWLB loans has fallen significantly over the past decades, investments being made by local authorities. Decisions even accounting for changing policy margins. on borrowing and spending capital are devolved to The noble Lord, Lord Shipley,asked about the impact local authorities. They pick capital projects in line on social housing. By ensuring that the PWLB can with local priorities and choose how to pay for those continue to lend, the rate rise supports social housing projects, including whether to borrow. Where local delivery. authorities borrow,they must have regard to the prudential On whether Her Majesty’s Government should have framework—as set out by CIPFA and MHCLG, or oversight, in general, it is right for decisions to be the respective devolved Administration—to ensure that made locally by the elected council. Most borrowing is they borrow prudently. spent on schools, roads and waste services. I commend this instrument to the Committee. Lord Deben: If I may say so, the phrase “to ensure that their borrowing is prudent” covers a multitude of Motion agreed. sins. My issue is not that local authorities should not be able to borrow or to make their own decisions, but if they make a number of decisions that mean that Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions there is a change in the way in which the Public Works to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 2020 Loan Board is being used, does my noble friend not think that that issue should be raised in Parliament, Considered in Grand Committee not just left to the local authorities? 5.05 pm 5 pm Moved by Viscount Younger of Leckie The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, my noble friend makes a good point. I will come to that issue in a That the Grand Committee do consider the Scotland couple of paragraphs and will point it out when we get Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish to it. Ministers etc.) Order 2020. Under the prudential system, local authorities should not look to take on disproportionate levels of financial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry risk, especially when that is funded by additional of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Viscount borrowing. On the point raised by my noble friend Younger of Leckie) (Con): My Lords, I thank noble and the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Shipley, Lords for the opportunity to debate this order, which the Treasury is concerned about local authorities investing is part of the Government’s ongoing commitment to in commercial assets that do not directly serve policy devolution. I will begin by providing background to objectives, especially when these investments are financed the order, which is made under the Scotland Act 1998. by debt, including from the Public Works Loan Board. The 1998 Act devolved powers to Scotland and legislated The National Audit Office is currently reviewing the for the establishment of a Scottish Parliament. The issue and intends to publish a report into this activity Scotland Act 2016 was the second major update to the in the coming weeks. We will continue to keep this settlement, making amendments to the 1998 Act and situation under review. delivering the cross-party Smith commission agreement, GC 23 Scotland Act 1998 Order 2020[LORDS] Scotland Act 1998 Order 2020 GC 24

[VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE] pay for food and clothing and to help towards travel which was established following the 2014 Scottish costs, thus removing some of the initial pressure of independence referendum. As a result of the 2016 Act, starting a new job. a wide range of powers, including welfare powers, has Young people will have a three-month window from now been transferred to the Scottish Government and receiving an offer of employment to apply for the Scottish Parliament. benefit. Upon receipt of a job start payment application, Scotland Act orders are used to implement, update the Scottish Government anticipate that it will take or adjust Scotland’s devolution settlement. The order 21 working days and a further three working days for before the Grand Committee today is a Section 63 payment to be made. Care leavers will be able to apply order, which provides for functions to be shared by for an additional year compared with other young Scottish Ministers concurrently with a Minister of the people and will have to be out of paid work only on Crown. This is commonly known as executive devolution. the date of the job offer, rather than for the previous Section 63 orders are Orders in Council and are subject six months, to be eligible. to approval by affirmative resolution in both Houses The job start payment is expected to be introduced of this Parliament and the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, in spring 2020. This is of course dependent on the this order was approved by the Scottish Parliament on order being made. Job start payment will be administered 4 December last year. by Social Security Scotland, the Scottish Government’s I will now turn to the instrument itself and explain benefit delivery agency. Any costs associated with exactly what it does. The Scottish Government have delivering the payment will fall solely on the Scottish committed to introducing a grant, known as job start Government. In the Scottish budget 2020-21, announced payment, for young people aged 16 between 24 who on 6 February, £2 million was allocated to fund the have been out of paid employment for six months or benefit expenditure for job start payment. more and who make an application. The Scottish The UK Government do not view the order as Government do not currently have the executive controversial and are fully supportive of the Scottish competence to provide assistance to this cohort of Government’s plans to support young people to retain young people to help them retain employment. This employment through the introduction of the job start order is therefore required to enable the introduction payment. Indeed, we take no issue with the Scottish of the Scottish Government’s job start payment. Government using their budget to support young people To be clear, the order only gives Scottish Ministers in this way, in addition to the support provided across the necessary powers and does not set policy.Furthermore, the UK by the UK Government within reserved the powers of the UK Government will not be reduced competence. as a result of the order as the functions are simply The order demonstrates that the UK Government being shared with the Scottish Government. My right remain committed to strengthening the devolution honourable friend the Secretary of State for Work and settlement and shows Scotland’s two Governments Pensions has agreed to share the function of making working well together. I commend the order to the arrangements to provide assistance to this cohort Committee, and I beg to move. concurrently with the Scottish Government. The order will achieve this by amending the Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD): My Lords, I thank Employment And Training Act 1973 to make certain the Minister for that introduction and explanation. As existing powers for the Secretary of State exercisable he said, this is a relatively small measure, it is not concurrently by Scottish Ministers. Section 31 of the contentious and it is clearly the wish of the Scottish Scotland Act 2016 created exceptions to the reservation Government, so in that sense we do not need to detain of the subject matter of the Employment And Training the Committee for long. I commend the basics of the Act 1973 in order to give the Scottish Parliament grant, accept that there are circumstances in which certain powers in this area. However, those exceptions young people might find it difficult to get work if they did not extend to providing assistance to retain have been unemployed for a long time, and accept that employment to this cohort of young people. The this would be a benefit, but is there any accountability amendment is therefore required to enable the introduction for this money, or is it simply cash in hand for young of the job start payment as without it, Scottish Ministers people to do with as they wish? would not have the necessary powers. My second point concerns perhaps a more general I will now explain what the Scottish Government characteristic of the Scottish Government’s campaign intend to do with the powers transferred through this to secure control over social security and welfare order. I previously explained the nature of the grant. payments in Scotland—they proceed very slowly and In targeting young people, the Scottish Government with some timidity in implementing them. We know are targeting the people who need support most. Evidence how big the welfare bill is, and the Minister has put a suggests that the unemployment rate for young people maximum figure of £2 million on this measure. I know is higher than for those over 25. The unemployment that this is a very small cohort of people and that is rate for young people in Scotland was 9.1% from probably as much as it deserves; nevertheless, against October 2018 to September 2019, compared with an the big picture of welfare and social security it is a overall unemployment rate in Scotland of 3.9%. The very modest measure. When we compare that with the proposed payment will consist of a one-off cash payment profligacy with which the Scottish Government have of £250, or £400 for young people who have children. managed to nationalise, at great expense, significant This will help with the initial costs associated with sections of the Scottish economy—shipyards that cannot entering and remaining in work. It could be used to complete ships, airports that do not run planes and GC 25 Scotland Act 1998 Order 2020[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Scotland Act 1998 Order 2020 GC 26 trains that do not run at all—one would like to think said: 9.8%, which is three times higher than that in that they might be a little more ambitious in saving England and a rise of 0.8% in the year to July 2019. money on those projects and using it for more radical Does the Minister have any thoughts about that? Do welfare benefit measures in Scotland. the Scottish Government have any other plans in hand Many of us had hoped that the Scottish Parliament that are more meaningful than a £250 grant to ensure and the Scottish Government would use the transferred that these youngsters have a more successful entry into powers to show how Scotland and its needs are different, adulthood? If I may again borrow the words of the and possibly to develop different ways to deliver welfare noble Lord, Lord Bruce, should the Scottish Government and social security peculiar to those needs, but in ways perhaps be a little more ambitious in seeking to reduce that also might influence delivery methods in other young people’sunemployment in Scotland? Nevertheless, parts of the UK. It is disappointing that the Scottish we agree to the order. Government do not seem able to show a great deal of imagination and vision. While one would of course Viscount Younger of Leckie: My Lords, I thank the not object to the transfer of these powers and to the Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, processes whereby it is co-determined—I guess that and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for their points means that each decision is sanctioned by the appropriate and questions. I will do my best to answer them. The Minister in the UK Government—it is nevertheless first question to address is about accountability for worth putting on record that the Scottish Government this money. A young person receives the £250 cash in need to show a little more vision and imagination if hand; the point is to allow the young person to spend they really want to demonstrate that their campaign to the money in the way they feel is right. It is designed to get these welfare powers was worth the effort. go on travel or food costs to help them in their early days in work. However, they could easily decide to 5.15 pm spend it on a PlayStation or something. That is the Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, truth. The only answer I can give is that there is trust I also thank the Minister for outlining this modest, that once young people have the job they will decide to minor order. We are happy to support it, given that its spend the money wisely. whole purpose is to enable Scottish Ministers to help young people who have been out of work for six Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: That may answer months or more by giving them a £250 grant to help the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. I them take up a job. That is pretty important because, meant what accountability do the Scottish Government as the Minister said, the unemployment rate for those have in setting up this scheme that they are choosing aged under 25 is higher than for older people. Having the right people and that the pot is being handled supported the order’s aims, I have a few brief questions efficiently. I recognise that this is not an issue for this for the Minister. government department, but the Minister might know from discussions. He might want to write, if it is not First, could he outline what consultation, if any, within his knowledge. took place, particularly with the young Scottish people who will be affected by this? Secondly, and I guess this Viscount Younger of Leckie: The noble Baroness will have a technical answer, why is it necessary to have makes a good point. I will need to write. On how a whole statutory instrument for what seems a very wisely the £2 million is being spent by the Scottish minor issue? Why was it not included in the Scotland Government, the assumption is that the £250 grants Act 2016? It seems even more minor than I thought will go to the right people at the right time for the right when I first read it. If the expenditure is still a joint reasons. I will write if we can get some more information responsibility, it is giving only a little bit to Scotland on that point. and it seems extraordinary that it needs all this. I am delighted to be here with colleagues this afternoon to Lord Bruce of Bennachie: Do the Government have deal with it, but it is hard to understand why it needs a any plans to monitor this? It may well be a very good whole SI. idea and prove to be very effective, and that is fine, but Thirdly, given that the Minister said the figure it may be found that it is just cash in hand and is not would be £2 million for the total pot, does he happen really used for good purposes. It is presumably worth to know how the Scottish Government propose to doing some systematic modelling. It may not be an raise the money to fund this? Fourthly, to his awful lot of money, but simply handing out money for knowledge—I understand this is not his responsibility— a purpose without seeing whether it is used for that are the Scottish Government planning any evaluation purpose seems not entirely right. to ascertain the scheme’s effectiveness? Before the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, got in first, I was going to ask Viscount Younger of Leckie: I feel sure that we about accountability for this expenditure. Lastly, should should be able to get some information for the noble a young Scottish person be awarded this £250 grant, Lord. I asked these questions as part of my briefing, is there any risk that they would lose access to any but I will see what more I can get. That leads on nicely UK-wide funding? to take note of the points the noble Lord made about As I said, we welcome any initiative that helps the Scottish Government. He made the point that it is young people into work, but do the Government have a modest measure that lacks imagination and vision. any explanation for how an SNP Government are The only thing to say is that I have noted that. I think overseeing such a horrendously high level of youth it is a fair point, but I should be careful not to criticise unemployment? According to the Scotsman, the figure the Scottish Government. Again, if there is something is even higher for this age cohort than the Minister I can put in writing on that I will certainly do so. GC 27 Scotland Act 1998 Order 2020[LORDS] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 28

[VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE] Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, asked whether Moving on, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked UK Ministers sanction decisions. The answer is no. why there is an order for such a minor provision and Scottish Ministers will have discretion as to how to use why it was not in the Scotland Act 2016 in the first the power once it is shared. It is just that UK Ministers place, which is a fair question. The intention to develop also retain the competence. the job start payment first appeared in the SNP manifesto I hope that covers all the questions. I thank the noble in April 2016 and the Scotland Act 2016 completed its Baroness, Lady Hayter,and the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, passage through the UK Parliament in March 2016. for their support in principle for this. The 2016 Act devolved the competence to legislate for new benefits, but only for benefits which were not Motion agreed. connected with reserved matters. The relevant powers relating to assisting persons to retain employment are reserved under the Scotland Act 1998 under the job search and support reservation. The message is that it Northamptonshire (Structural Changes) just missed the cut, if that is the way to put it. Order 2019 The noble Baroness also asked where the money for Considered in Grand Committee the job start payment is coming from. The Scottish Government announced their budget last week and 5.27 pm committed money from the Scottish Consolidated Fund. I cannot say which source of money goes to which Moved by Viscount Younger of Leckie expenditure. The Scottish Consolidated Fund comes from a range of sources, including the block grant That the Grand Committee do consider the from the UK Government, Scottish taxes and borrowing. Northamptonshire (Structural Changes) Order 2019. That includes the Scottish tax-raising powers as well, Relevant document: 4th Report from the Secondary which, as the Committee knows, the UK Government Legislation Scrutiny Committee, Session 2019 gave the Scottish Parliament. The noble Baroness asked whether I am concerned that the SNP Government are not properly addressing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry the high level of youth unemployment. She made an of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Viscount extremely good point. I am concerned that my colleagues Younger of Leckie) (Con): My Lords, this order was in the Scottish Government are more focused on laid before the House on 28 October. The Secondary constitutional conflict and their own agenda for Legislation Scrutiny Committee published its report independence than on using the powers that they have on 4 November. The good people of Northamptonshire to address the issues that people in Scotland badly then had a significant wait before yesterday’s debate need to be addressed and which they care about. That on this order by the Second Delegated Legislation is not just youth unemployment but failings in education, Committee in the House of Commons. I understand healthcare and a range of other devolved responsibilities. that the order was welcomed and was considered fairly I suspect that the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, swiftly. Lord Bruce, would probably agree with me on that front. Let me start by setting out the background to The noble Baroness asked what consultation exercises this order. Your Lordships may recall that just over the Scottish Government have undertaken. To be fair two years ago my predecessor, my noble friend Lord to them, they ran a public consultation on the proposed Bourne, informed this House that the then Secretary format and the key eligibility criteria of the job start of State had concerns about financial management at payment between 16 January and 9 April 2019. The Northamptonshire County Council and whether it analysis of 96 responses showed that the majority of was failing to meet its best value duty. Your Lordships individuals and respondents believed that the job grant, may also remember the reports in the press relating to as it was then called, met policy intent. this story. An inspector was appointed under powers The noble Baroness also asked what support was in given by the Local Government Act 1999. place for unemployed young people across the UK. I would like to quote directly from the report of The people receiving the £250 would not lose out on that inspector: the benefits that they might receive in addition. There “To change the culture and organisational ethos and to restore are existing UK-wide benefits that support unemployed balance, would, in the judgement of the inspection team, take of people while they search for work. Young people may the order of 5 years and require a substantial one off cash also be able to access funds from other sources to injection. Effectively, it would be a reward for failure. Even under a Directions regime, it is not considered likely that councillors support them with some of the costs associated with and officers would have the strength of purpose to carry through applying for and starting a new job. These include the such a long running programme of recovery potentially crossing flexible support fund, which is not just for young two electoral cycles. In the meantime, it would be the people of people. It is offered by jobcentres across the UK at the the county who would suffer. A way forward with a clean sheet, discretion of work coaches, who have the flexibility leaving all the history behind, is required.” and discretion to make awards that will enhance the The independent reviewer recommended that local employment prospects of the claimants and other government in Northamptonshire should be reorganised customers with whom they are engaged, if there is a into two unitary councils, one covering the areas of Corby, need. The difference is that, unlike job start payment, East Northamptonshire, Kettering and Wellingborough the flexible support fund does not specifically apply to and another covering Daventry, Northampton and young people; it extends further. South Northamptonshire. GC 29 Northamptonshire Order 2019[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 30

The order before us today creates just this new start I also want to highlight the other ways the councils for local government in Northamptonshire, which has expect the proposal, if implemented, to improve local been described by the councils themselves as a government. These are by: offering more coherent “once in a generation opportunity to develop and transform geographic units for aligning infrastructure, housing services so they are modern, financially resilient and future-proof, and environment services to help drive growth; enabling learning from national best practice and making informed decisions a clear point of contact for residents at their relative about the future.” councils to access all council services; delivering advantages This order, if approved and made by Parliament, will in health and well-being by enhancing social care and provide for the establishment of two new local government safeguarding services through closer connection with areas. For each new area a new unitary council related services; improving education and skills provisions; will be established; they are to be known as North improving community safety; and finally, delivering Northamptonshire Council and West Northamptonshire estimated cost savings of £12 million per year as a Council. The order also provides important transitional result of the reorganisation, which will be achieved within arrangements, as is usual in such cases. In particular, two years of the establishment of the new councils. provision is made to replace the district council elections Let me say a little more about the future finances of in May 2020 with elections to the new unitary councils, these new councils. The commissioners have ensured which will be shadow authorities until 1 April 2021. that the county council’s finances, while still fragile, will be a stable platform on which to establish the new 5.30 pm councils. The councils have worked hard through the Turning to the detail, I will now speak of the implementation process to get a firm grip on the costs process behind local government reorganisation. On and benefits associated with their unitary proposal. I 27 March 2018 the then Secretary of State, Sajid Javid, understand the programme currently estimates that issued an invitation to all eight Northamptonshire investment of £43.5 million is required to deliver the councils to submit a proposal for local government local government reorganisation and transformation restructuring. The invitation set out that the proposals it seeks to deliver. This investment will in part be should meet our long-standing criteria that restructuring, funded by £18 million of business rates pilot funding. if implemented, should improve local government, be This investment programme is expected to yield savings based on a credible geography, and command a good of some £85.9 million annually, which will be available deal of local support. On 31 August 2018, seven of the to invest in sustaining local services. This is a significant eight authorities submitted a proposal for two new figure and it will be for the councils to carefully unitary councils. I thank all the councils for the way in monitor and report both future financial progress and which they have worked together to develop this proposal, the progress that has been made towards delivering for the significant work that has been undertaken to modern and sustaining local services. I am clear that prepare for its implementation, and for the support the two new unitary councils have a credible geography that the commissioners have provided. The then Secretary that meets the second criteria. of State, James Brokenshire, decided that this proposal The third criterion focuses on the quality and extent meets our criteria for unitarisation and the additional of support for the proposal. I am pleased to say that requirements set out in the invitation. the proposal has a good deal of support. Over 67% of Taking the first criteria of improving local government, the 5,831 respondents to an independent consultation, a significant factor was a consideration of children’s carried out on behalf of the councils, agreed that the services, particularly because they have been identified number of councils should be reduced. In addition, a as a matter of concern. The then Secretary of State for representative residents’survey demonstrated that absolute Education commissioned a report by the Northampton- majorities of all residents, across the county and within shire children’s services commissioner on how best to each proposed unitary area, agreed with the proposal. ensure continued improvement of children’s social As noble Lords would expect there was also a statutory care, should there be a reorganisation of local government consultationontheproposal,whichreceived386responses. in Northamptonshire. The commissioner recommended Responses from businesses, members of the public, that there should be a children’s trust to cover the parish councils and community organisations to that whole area. Retaining a shared children’s social care consultation were more mixed. However,the consultation function through establishing a children’s trust will demonstrated that seven of the eight councils in the provide continuity in children’s social services across area, all public sector partners and the local enterprise the two new counties. It will provide a stable platform partnership support the proposal for two unitaries. As to accelerate service improvement so that vulnerable referred to previously,local partners see this reorganisation children and families get the help and protection as an opportunity to review services and ensure that that they need and deserve. Significant progress has they meet the needs of local communities. been made with the establishment of Children First This order implements the proposal and reflects Northamptonshire and I welcome the recent appointment local preferences. It provides for arrangements to manage of the chair, Ian Curryer. the transition to the new unitary councils, including the establishment of joint committees and shadow Another vital local government service is adult social authorities to drive the implementation. Evidence from care, and the decision was also made on the basis that previous unitarisations suggests that elections to a work continues to be taken forward to integrate adult shadow authority can help establish legitimacy, effective social care and health services. I am pleased that local leadership and better long-term decision-making to health and council leaders have agreed a draft plan ensure smooth transition to the new arrangements. involving the creation of community hubs. The Secretary of State decided to modify the proposal GC 31 Northamptonshire Order 2019[LORDS] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 32

[VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE] that would previously have been the remit of district to delay implementation to April 2021 and establish councillors. That would enable a local element to be shadow authorities, with elections to those shadow retained in local governance. I will leave it there and authorities in May 2020. This is to ensure that the new hope that the Minister will have some sort of response councils would be in the strongest possible position to to it. deliverhigh-qualityservicestothepeopleof Northampton- The second element is the size of the two unitary shire from the outset. councils and the number of councillors they have. One The May 2019 district council elections in has got 93 and the other has 78. In my experience, that Northamptonshire were previously postponed to May is quite a large number. The Explanatory Memorandum 2020. The order provides that those May 2020 district states that there will be a boundary review for those council elections are cancelled. This is to avoid confusion wards before the next local elections in 2025. Are the for residents in being asked to vote for councillors for Government thinking about reducing the number of the new councils and councillors for a district council councillors, because that is what a boundary review that will be abolished 11 months later. District councillors could achieve? On balance, having fewer councillors will therefore remain as elected members of their might improve governance but, on the other hand, it district council until their council is abolished. Some increases the size of wards and makes it more difficult will serve for six years. forwardcouncillorstoundertaketheirlocalresponsibilities. Finally, I would just like to mention my personal Is that in view? experience. My own council will soon be the new My next point is a general one about when there unitary Buckinghamshire Council. I am looking forward are 93 councillors—even 78—and only 10 of them are to exercising my democratic rights on 7 May in electing actual decision-makers.They are in the cabinet; they make councillors to that new authority. I am also most the decisions for the council. That leaves another 83; encouraged by the recent local government reorganisation they can do scrutiny, but they are not taking decisions, in Dorset. While it is the first time that I have taken which is what local people expect them to be doing. one of these debates in my newish role within the Apart from the annual budget, the local plan and, department, for my officials this is of course business perhaps, an annual children’s plan, there is not much as usual. I am pleased to report that the implementation that every councillor has to take decisions on. There phase for this reorganisation is well under way. I have has to be a rethink of the roles and responsibilities of full confidence in the local area implementing the councillors who are not in a cabinet. It can make unitarisation by April 2021. I therefore commend this councillors feel remote from decision-making. As ward order to the Committee and I beg to move. size makes people feel remote, councillors feel remote if they are not in the cabinet. In my experience, remote Baroness Pinnock (LD): I remind everybody of my decision-making fuels discontent and we should take entry in the register of interests, as a councillor in note of that. Kirklees in West Yorkshire—a unitary council—and Paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum, as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. which the Minister referred to, outlines the benefits of The order enacts decisions made in response to the the new structure: financial calamity that befell local government in “aligning infrastructure; housing and environment services to Northamptonshire through its county council. It was help deliver growth; advantages in … health and wellbeing; clearlyimperativethatactionwastaken;itismyunderstanding improved education and skills provision”, that change had to be made. However, I would like to though I have to say that the responsibilities of local comment on and perhaps challenge some of the decisions councils regarding education are very limited these that have resulted from the decision to reorganise local days. The levers that they have to change anything are government in Northamptonshire. minimal, so I would not have referred to education in First, it seems that we as a country are in danger of that way. Does the Minister agree that there could be taking the “local” out of local government. I say that an alternative to achieving that aim, which I think will as somebody who serves a very large ward—not the come up in the next few months in a number of ways? largest in the country, but one of the largest—at a A constructive collaboration, formalised between districts unitary level and understands the demands on the and the county, could achieve the same aims without three councillors who serve a population of 16,000. the upheaval of a structural reorganisation. This would From my experience, it means that some of the very be an upheaval, and it takes a long time—several local issues become less important to councillors, who years—for councils to get on their feet and begin have to deal with high-level strategic decisions, but delivering strategically, not operationally, the services remain very important to local people. When you have that they should. a big ward, there is a tension between the strategic and the local. If we are not careful, local people often miss 5.45 pm out. That is more so with large wards serving rural The second point I want to make about the benefits communities. of the reorganisation is on the projected savings of I do not know the county of Northants very well, £12 million per annum. Such figures are always produced but I guess that some of its wards will be significantly by the protagonists of the reorganisation. My knowledge rural in nature. In my experience, this creates a potential of reorganisations tells me that that saving might not disconnect between decision-makers and the people be the case. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny they serve. There is potential for the Government to Committee highlighted that it hoped the House would, give additional powers to parish and town councils, so “seek a commitment from the Minister to review whether the that they can take up some of the very local responsibilities benefits and savings have been met.” GC 33 Northamptonshire Order 2019[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 34

I hope the Minister will be able to commit to such a be a very good argument, was about whether there review, because it will inform future changes, which is should be fewer councils. That is not the issue. The important. issue is why should we have two councils rather than Another point I would make about the changes is three or one. That is the first question. I find the about the children’s trust, which I understand will process very peculiar. be set up for a very good reason: so that there is The second thing that seems odd about it is the continuity in children’s services in the whole county of decision that the historic county of Northamptonshire Northamptonshire. I have had one experience of a should be treated differently from the historic country children’s trust and it was not particularly helpful or of Cornwall. I am not suggesting that either is the positive. It becomes dominated by children’s services right answer, but it seems that you have to have a officers and the accountability factor of local governance, reason for it. When I had to deal with Sir John Banham’s as exemplified by local councillors, gets lost. I would report, one of the things I found very difficult was that like the Minister to give some thought to that, although a number of the proposals did not seem to tie up with maybe not to respond today. other proposals; it was therefore quite difficult to The consultation was interesting. It seems that people present them to the House of Commons because the were saying, “We’ve got failure. We need to change. other place, quite naturally, asked why it was that the This’ll do.” That is how it came out when I read it. proposals for this place were based on these arguments They were accepting a fait accompli, really. and the arguments were overturned in the proposals Change was, of course, inevitable. We had to have a for some other place. fresh start, given the financial failure of the large That leads me to question whether we have any idea council in the area. We have had a review, but I wonder about what we are trying to do. What is the Government’s whether anybody has ever reflected on how that failure view of local authorities? If we are going to do them happened. Someone somewhere must have known; piecemeal because of a disaster, I understand that we surely action should have been taken at that stage, have to do it quickly—I will not hold up the proceedings before failure happened. It is no good for local people any longer than I have to in asking these fundamental who rely on services. Where was some intervention? questions; I certainly will not suggest that one is not There seemed to be a failure somewhere in local content with this—but it does not seem to be very governance. good business. It does not seem to be a sensible way Finally, I would point out that England has the to proceed. fewest elected representatives of all the major European That leads me to my third point, which is simply countries, and when compared to the United States of this: we have had some quite successful changes in America. The direction of travel is to reduce them local government. If I remember rightly, the original here. I worry that we are reducing the number of changes in 1974, which were Conservative ones, were elected representatives to the detriment of local democracy. largely bad because they were based on the principle Again, I think that will fuel discontent. If people do of having a whole lot of councils, many of which were not feel that they know who is taking the decisions, not viable. For example, in my county of Suffolk, we and where, it does not help anyone; it makes people should have had two unitary authorities: the old county cynical about local government. Having been a council of east Suffolk and the old county council of representative in local government for a large number west Suffolk. That would have been sensible. Instead, of years, that is the last thing I would want to happen. we had eight district councils and a county council. It However, I understand the need for the order, and I is a very large area, much bigger than Northamptonshire, support what is going on. and it was not a sensible thing. Ever since, there have been attempts for councils to work together. That is Lord Deben (Con): My Lords, I query the process. now happening. East Suffolk Council is an amalgamation Having been the Secretary of State responsible for of two district councils. It is true of Mid Suffolk local government reorganisation, I find this process District Council and Babergh District Council and of extremely peculiar. The Secretary of State asked the the western district councils, which are now working principal councils in Northamptonshire to decide how they together because that is the only way in which they can wanted the future to be,but he said that Northamptonshire provide proper services at a proper price. could not be a single unitary and if it were going to be I do not particularly like neatness. It is the enemy of three unitaries, they had to find some extremely good civilisation. I do not like the concept of being neat for reasons for it. What we have here is a series of the sake of it, but I do like rationality, and my problem commissioners proposing a particular answer and the here is that I see no rationality behind this. It looks to Secretary of State thanking the commissioners for all me as if there was a failing county council, it was a their work and presenting local people with a choice disaster, we put in some people to hold the place that is not a choice. I am not happy with that as a together and now let us get some answer, which we will procedure. have, but let us not be too careful about whether we Then we discover that we are supposed to think have a philosophy behind it. What sort of numbers that the local people will be thrilled about it because should we be dealing with in the historic county of there were 300-odd responses to a statutory consultation Northamptonshire? Somebody should have said, “What from a population of something like 700,000. We also about a unitary authority?” That is one answer. I am had a number of businesses and others who thought it not suggesting that it is necessarily right, but should it was a frightfully good idea. One of the questions that not have been a question that was asked? Would it was asked—this is fascinating—which was thought to have been significantly more expensive? Then you GC 35 Northamptonshire Order 2019[LORDS] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 36

[LORD DEBEN] 6 pm would not have had to have a children’s trust. I am a This is particularly relevant in the case of Cumbria. bit worried about the need for a children’s trust but I am a supporter of unitary authorities.Local government nobody thinks that you have to have any other, in Cumbria would be a lot better if we did not have countywide, for what is not an enormous county and this confusing duplication with the county council one that is quite a reasonable shape. and six district councils and the national park. I tell I have stayed behind because I want to know what you this as someone who represents Wigton in Cumbria: the Government’s philosophy is. I know a number of I get people coming to me all the time with particular the Minister’s civil servants from my own history—they issues and they do not have a clue about who is have been around for quite some time—and I always responsible for what. That is very bad for democracy. want to know why we decide on a particular answer. I am a strong supporter of the idea that, if we want This decision is not based on a “why”; this decision says a more vital local democracy, unitaries are the way that we are doing it because it is the easiest, quickest, forward. simplest way—and pray to God it works. I am not sure that that is government. In the case of Cumbria, there could be two unitary authorities—a northern one and a southern one—but the geographical logic of the southern authority would include Lancaster and Morecambe to create a Morecambe Lord Liddle (Lab): My Lords, I declare an interest Bay authority, which was considered 50 years ago. It as a county councillor in Cumbria, and some of my would stretch from the city of Lancaster—I declare an remarks are going to relate to Cumbria in the context interest as the pro-chancellor of Lancaster University— of what the Government have decided on Northampton- round the bay, including the South Lakeland area, shire. I agree with many of the general points that the Kendal and Barrow-in-Furness. The problem is that noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lord, Mr Berry apparently told our local government leaders Lord Deben, have made, but I am rather concerned that this was ruled out completely and that the that the Northamptonshire model is being seized on Government could not possible consider something by Ministers as something that they can go around that crossed a county boundary. That is an illogical the country imposing on people, whatever they think. rule for Ministers to adopt in trying to create a logical The cause of that suspicion is that Mr Jake Berry, the local government structure. Minister for the Northern Powerhouse, summoned the leaders of the councils of Cumbria to see him and Thirdly, I have some reservations about the idea of basically told them that the only option for the way a trust to deal with children’s services. The Minister forward was two unitary authorities in Cumbria—a mentioned adult social care as well, but it was not county of some 500,000 people but obviously a vast clear to me whether the two unitaries would be responsible geographical area—and that that was basically the for adult social care or whether, again, it would be Government’sintention. I realise that the noble Viscount, removed from the council’s responsibilities and put in Lord Younger, may not be in a position to answer my some independent hands. I do not know how a trust questions, but I would be very grateful if he would would work. There are lots of issues to do with children’s commit to send me a letter in answer to the points I services that require democratic accountability and am about to make. debate. I am concerned about what some people will First, what is the current position on ministerial call the privatisation of these services; I do not believe powers in relation to local government reorganisation? that it would be privatisation unless the Government As I understand it, there was a provision in the Local imposed that, but it is not a democratically satisfactory Government Act to allow the department to impose arrangement to have an independent body on matters schemes on areas but these powers have now lapsed. I of such sensitivity. am not sure whether I am right about that, so I want Finally, again in relation to Northamptonshire and to know what the statutory power is at present and Cumbria, why did Mr Berry tell our leaders that a whether the Government are considering—because I condition of this was that we had an elected mayor? know that there is talk of a devolution White Paper What is the Government’s policy on having an elected later in the year—taking on the power to reorganise mayor for the whole county—that is, not having one local government even if there is not unanimous for each authority, but having an elected mayor to agreement? I rather gathered from what the Minister cover the two unitary authorities? Where has this idea said that although seven of the eight authorities said come from? What is the logic of it? Why is that they would accept the two-unitary structure in thought to be an essential part of effective local Northamptonshire, it was not necessarily unanimous government reorganisation? I should say again that I of all the authorities. I do not know what the position am not against elected mayors. Having an elected is there. So, the first question is: where do we currently mayor has done London enormous good. Mr Street in stand on ministerial powers and on the Government’s Birmingham and Mr Burnham in Manchester are intentions for the future, given the Prime Minister’s playing a good role. I am not against elected mayors in laudable desire to make local government work better principle, but I do not see why they have automatically as he sees it and to devolve power? to be part of a scheme to revitalise local democracy Secondly, do the Government have rules about what and have a more sensible local government structure. they regard as the minimum size of a unitary authority? I am asking for the principles that led to the Again, there is talk of the normal rule being a population Northamptonshire reorganisation to be more clearly of 300,000, but is that a rule or is it just a thought stated and for the Government to be a little clearer when people are looking at these questions? about whether they see these principles to be of general GC 37 Northamptonshire Order 2019[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 38 relevance and how they would apply in the Cumbria two years; we made them in 18 months. This is not a case. I would be grateful for an explanation of those bad news story; it is a good news story. That is why I points by letter from the Minister. would support Northamptonshire all the way. I would be concerned about children’s trusts. What Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con): My Lords, I Mr Berry said recently about Cumbria is concerning. apologise for being slightly late. I was stuck in a It concerns me because if we take children’s services committee. I declare an interest as a vice-chairman of and adult care services out of local government, what the Local Government Association and president of is left? In local government over the past 10 years, we the National Association of Local Councils. Probably have shown how efficient and effective we can be. Just more importantly, I am a member of Wiltshire Council. because there might be one difficult apple—not a bad For 10 years, I led a unitary authority and for the six apple, but experiencing difficulties—it does not mean years before that I led a county council, leading it and that the system has to change. In both children’s and its four districts in to a unitary authority. So I know adults’ services, it is important that there is democratic quite a lot about unitary authorities.I agree wholeheartedly accountability locally. We have seen what happens in with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that this is a mess. the health service when there is not democratic For many years, since I started in local government accountability. Please do not do that to us for children’s about 25 years ago, I have hoped that government and adult care services. would grasp hold of this and look at the reorganisation of local government so that we were more similar and I could go on a great deal, but I will not. sensible and would therefore have a stronger voice Northamptonshire has been through a very difficult with central government because we would not be so time, and this is its chance to step up to the mark and complex in the way we do business. deliver the services that its people deserve. I wish it all I know a little bit about Northamptonshire, and I the best. wish it well in the future. I think this is the right thing for that county, although personally I agree with the Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, noble Lord, Lord Deben: I would have had one single I refer to my relevant interest as a vice-president of the unitary authority. Northamptonshire is about the same Local Government Association. I thank the Minister size as Wiltshire—about 500,000 people—which, in my for explaining the order. I agree with many of the experience, is about right, although I always said that points made by every Member here. Like my noble if somebody gave me another 200,000 to 300,000 people, friend, I am generally a supporter of unitary authorities. I would take them. I would have become much more I think they are the way to go, generally speaking. efficient and been just as local. The noble Baroness, However, this is quite a sad day in some ways. We are Lady Pinnock, and I have talked about this in not here because councils have come together and the Chamber a number of times. There is no reason decided that this is what they need to do for their for a unitary authority to become divorced from its county. They have not had discussions and worked out communities. People in Wiltshire will tell you that that this is the best way forward. We are here because Wiltshire Council is now much closer to its communities. of complete incompetence and bad management at It takes work, planning and a system to do that, but it Northamptonshire County Council. This unitary can be done. It can also work much better with its authority decision has then been imposed on people. parish and town councils and start to look at devolution As we have heard, they could not have one unitary downwards. We talk a lot about devolution from central council—I do not know why, but they could not—and government to local government, but we forget the they could not have three. It had to be two. That is people on the ground. The people to deliver playgrounds, very disappointing. parks and gardens, swimming pools and things like I know the area really well. I lived and worked in that are towns and parishes. They do not cost the central the east Midlands for a very long time. I like taxpayer any money, because that is local precepting. Northamptonshire a lot. The town of Northampton It is easy for a town or parish to have a scheme, ask got its charter in 1189. It has a beautiful town hall. local people for the money, and be challenged on The town was incorporated in 1835. The county itself whether it has delivered it with the money it has got is wonderful. As has already been said, it has a very from local communities. I do not worry about size. compact shape and great road and rail links. There are The other issue about size is that county councils great businesses there. Dr. Martens is in Wellingborough. now deliver more than 85% of the services across the The county also has Weetabix, Barclaycard and Carlsberg county area. We are probably talking about 13% to —all really good businesses. It is the home of the 15% of the services, so why are we not thinking about motor industry, with Silverstone and the Rockingham a million? It would not worry me, providing that each Motor Speedway. These are Premier League businesses of the unitary authorities is big and strategic but looks with a Sunday league county council working for at how it can be local as well. That is possible. Cornwall them. It is dreadful that we are where we are today. and Wiltshire are doing this very successfully. They are Corby is another great town, with a great history in also saving the money. I am sorry to say to the noble the steel industry. We may not all remember, but it was Baroness, Lady Pinnock, that it does not take long. In 40 years ago that the steelworks closed. Some 10,000 Wiltshire I was bothered, as every leader who changes people lost their jobs in one fell swoop. However, the a local government system must be, that local services local community, the local authority and the councils would take a dip. I assure the Committee that every came together, and they reinvented themselves. performance indicator in Wiltshire got better when we I am also disappointed in the names of these went to unitary and did so straight away. It did not two councils: North Northamptonshire and West dip. Not only that, we expected to make the savings in Northamptonshire. They are terrible, dreadful names. GC 39 Northamptonshire Order 2019[LORDS] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 40

[LORD KENNEDY OF SOUTHWARK] I start by setting out our high-level policy: what are Where have the historical county names gone? I we trying to do in local government reorganisation? I mean names such as Northamptonshire, Kettering, hope to allay some fears. The Government are open to Wellingborough, Corby and Daventry. We must also innovative, locally led proposals that will improve remember that we can have all the new names and services, enhance accountability and deliver financial structures and we can dismantle what has gone before, sustainability.Any proposal considered under the Cities but unless the structure is sound, the funding is stable and Local Government Devolution Act process will and the officers and members understand the challenge require unanimous consent from all councils.Alternatively, before them, this will solve nothing at all and we will the Secretary of State may issue a formal invitation for back here again in a few months or a few years’ time. proposals. Two circumstances will be considered in issuing 6.15 pm such an invitation. The first is where the following two Northamptonshire County Council failed the conditions are met: there is a local request for an communities of Northamptonshire completely. A lot invitation, and that request demonstrates that local of good people tried to deliver, but a failure of political opinion is coalescing around a single option that is leadership was at the centre of this disaster. I thank reasonably likely to meet the existing publicly announced the staff and the people who worked hard in the criteria for unitarisation. The second circumstance is councils. In particular, I pay tribute to Councillor Tom where it is considered that this action would be appropriate Beattie, the long-serving leader of Corby Borough given the specific circumstances of the area, including Council. Corby was very much against this reorganisation. the long-term sustainability of local services. We are If Tom had been the leader of the county council it clear that any change to council structure should not would not have opened a brand-new, glitzy county be dreamed up or imposed by Whitehall, but led by council office—with Sajid Javid opening it—for it to councils and local people. Councils are much better go bust only a matter of weeks later. It was absolutely placed to develop proposals that suit the unique needs ridiculous. He would never have got us into this mess of their residents and businesses. That is the overarching in the first place. policy, which noble Lords have no doubt heard before. Having said that, the order creates two new local authorities. I wish them well as they progress from Lord Deben: I am sorry to press my noble friend on shadow authority status in May to taking over full this, but this proposal does not meet any of those things. responsibility for all services in April 2021, but we First, it was not unanimously accepted by the local need to take a serious look at what happened. There councils. Secondly, it was the Secretary of State who was a complete failure of leadership, which we must said what they could and could not agree to. There was try to avoid in other councils. As other noble Lords no opportunity for innovative proposals; indeed, they asked, why can there not be one unitary county council? were told precisely that there could not be innovative We seem to have been forced into this as the only option, proposals. It is that that worries me. It is not that there which is not a good way to do it. I believe in devolution is not a philosophy; it is that in no single case have I and unitary authorities, and I believe that local people found that philosophy being followed. My noble friend, should have some status in that. I will leave my remarks the former leader of Wiltshire Council, pointed out there. I look forward to the Minister’s reply. that Wilshire works perfectly well and so does Cornwall. Why was Northamptonshire not given the choice to have a single unitary authority? It is that that worries Viscount Younger of Leckie: I thank the noble one. We are not keeping to what we said was our policy; Lords who took part in the debate, which has been not I therefore wonder whether we really have a policy. only interesting but informed. It has also been somewhat philosophical, particularly in the remarks made by the Viscount Younger of Leckie: I hear what my noble noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. friend says, but I do not agree with him on this. There The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, the noble Lord, are several reasons for that. Of course he will expect Lord Liddle, and my noble friend Lady Scott referred me to say that; I will say it. We see a fresh start for the to the children’s trust. I absolutely take note of their people of Northamptonshire. It will provide new councils comments. All I can say is that I will take these concerns in which local people can have confidence, providing back as I am not in a position to answer them; perhaps effective, modern and sustainable services. Like the these views are of a more philosophical sort. noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, I thank the leaders of the In the same breath, let me say in response to the eight—not seven—Northamptonshire councils and the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that a letter will be delivered commissioners for the leadership that they have shown to all noble Lords who took part in the debate, perhaps to take us to this point. to put a little more meat on the bones of that particular On the lack of unanimity and there being one council comment relating to the children’s trust, but also to —Corby—that was not entirely on board, it has answer his questions. In fact, I will attempt to answer consistently shown great strength of purpose in nearly some of those questions during my closing remarks, supporting things, so when we say that it is not entirely but I suspect that I will not answer them in full. unanimous, Corby was behind many of the issues. Perhaps this is me being a bit philosophical, but Perhaps a letter is required to give a little more information this subject leads to endless debate. Everybody has on that. their own view on how local services are best met and One of the most important things in this process is how local authorities and local councils come together consultation. The local consultation described the best. I understand that. I have my own views; obviously, majorities in favour as overwhelming, with 74% support they are the views of the Government. overall and 77% and 70% in West Northamptonshire GC 41 Northamptonshire Order 2019[11 FEBRUARY 2020] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 42 and North Northamptonshire respectively. I do not Northamptonshire councils to follow best practice—as, want to be drawn in on the names—I do not think that for example, in the unitary Wiltshire Council, led by my I can comment on that—but I take the noble Lord’s noble friend Lady Scott, if I may spare her blushes. point on the names that were given. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, spoke and expressed concerns about process. My guess is that a letter will Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Where are West better satisfy him, but the start of the process was the Northamptonshire and North Northamptonshire? They independent inspector. The proposal made follows are dreadful, dreadful names. The Government could exactly the inspector’srecommendation. The consideration certainly have done something about that. Northampton behind the inspector’s recommendation was that a got its charter in 1189. They are dreadful, dreadful new start was needed, with two new councils. In the names. Something much better should have been done. inspector’s view, two unitaries best met this aim and the criteria for unitary local government: improving Viscount Younger of Leckie: I think that I heard local government; a credible geography with a population “dreadful” at least four times. I say, perhaps as a substantially in excess of 300,000; and a good deal of reassurance—although I do not think that it will wash support. That penultimate figure perhaps answers the with the noble Lord—that the names have been chosen question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. To locally. Admittedly there was no competition, but they clarify, the figure is substantially in excess of 300,000. were chosen locally rather than being imposed on them. A unitary county would risk being seen as replicating I shall go further on the consultation. The and rewarding a failing county. Northamptonshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, spoke about Cumbria and Healthwatch Northamptonshire support a reduction with great passion, for obvious reasons. The position in the number of councils. They both welcome the closer in Cumbria is all about a devolution deal. It is for integration possible as a result of having to engage Cumbria to decide whether it wishes to have a devolution with fewer authorities, and agree that this is a positive deal; initial discussions are continuing. Major deals opportunity for change to secure a sustainable future. have involved a mayoral combined authority.If Cumbria The Northamptonshire police and crime commissioner wished to have a mayor deal with a mayoral combined is supportive and stated that the authority, it would point to a simplification of current “creation of unitary authorities would bring about clarity for the local government structures: establishing unitary councils. public and present opportunities for greater co-ordination, realisation We know that there are different local views about of efficiencies and simpler partnership working.” unitary structures for Cumbria. As I am sure the noble Finally, the Northamptonshire County Association Lord will tell me, discussions are continuing. We will of Local Councils reported that an overwhelming want to hear more from the local area in this respect. majority of town and parish councillors supported the The noble Lord made points about the elected principle of unitary authorities being established. We mayors. The idea of elected mayors arises in major should not dismiss the opinions of local people in this devolution deals where substantial powers and budgets respect. This allows me to pick up a point made by the are devolved over a functional economic area. An noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, about taking “local” elected mayor is seen as providing a strong single point out of “local government”. I point out to her that the of accountability for the exercise of those powers and new parish and town councils are in the process of for managing those budgets. That elected mayor can being established, including in Kettering, Northampton be a combined authority mayor if there is more than and Wellingborough—note those names. I welcome one authority in the functional economic area, or if and encourage this as an important way to strengthen that area comprises a single unitary council or an local democracy and enable decisions to be taken to elected mayor of that council. reflect the needs of local communities. I do not agree entirely with the noble Baroness that the local is being Lord Liddle: I would take that point if the elected taken out the process. In my view, we still have some mayor had substantial powers and there was a substantial very robust local democracy. devolution of the budget. As I understand it, in my I will pick up another point made by the noble county—I could be wrong and I am quite happy to be Baroness about the role of councillors in the cabinet corrected by the noble Lord’s officials—Mr Berry is system. I think her point was that only 10 were making talking about a devolution deal that might give Cumbria decisions, as opposed to the other 93—sorry, 89; my £10 million a year. That is a very small amount of money maths is bad. It will be for the new councils to determine compared with the county council’s revenue and capital the role of councillors and to ensure that all councillors budgets, never mind the other district councils. I think can take a full role in representing their residents and that our net revenue budget is more than £400 million; ensuring an effective local democracy. the districts must have another £80 million. We have a Furthermore, as to the size of wards, for the election LEP, of course, which is already in place and deals with in May 2020, each ward, which are county electoral economic development. I do not quite understand divisions, will have three members. For the next election whether the Government are saying that, if there is a in May 2025, we expect the independent boundary reorganisation in areas such as Cumbria, the mayor commission to undertake a full electoral review. It is will replace the LEP. I was against the abolition of for the commission to decide the number of councillors regional development agencies—it was a mistake for and the size of wards. Experience shows that the the coalition to do that—but the emphasis then was new unitary councils establish strong and effective put on local enterprise partnerships. Are we now, arrangements at parish and community levels, to add hardly a decade later,shifting on to mayors as something a little more to what I said. We would expect the new completely different? GC 43 Northamptonshire Order 2019[LORDS] Northamptonshire Order 2019 GC 44

Viscount Younger of Leckie: That just proves that ruling things out before people get the chance to decide. there are different views; the noble Lord will have his They are setting a rigid framework and saying, “You views and other noble Lords will have theirs. Setting can have that or nothing at all”. That is not letting up mayoral authorities is not a case of one system fits local people decide, and that is the basic problem. all—it comes down to the ongoing discussions that are taking place. My understanding is that the mayors Viscount Younger of Leckie: I take note of what the would not replace the LEPs, but I do not want to noble Lord has said. Actually, it falls in line with what prejudge the negotiations. There are going to be different I said at the beginning, which is that a letter is due. I setups. As the noble Lord will know, there are already will do my best to set out our approach in more detail, different setups in existing mayoral authorities.Regarding because there is sense in what we are doing. This is not the figures that have been mentioned, a substantial a scattergun approach and nor is it chaotic. deal would be one on the size and scale of that for I want to answer a question raised by the noble Greater Manchester or the West Midlands. Lord, Lord Kennedy, concerning Northamptonshire and the new arrangements. He asked: why not one 6.30 pm or three unitaries, rather than two? The inspector Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I used to keep saying recommended that a two-unitary solution was best these things when the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, was because a one-unitary council was perceived as replicating the Minister: the idea is that these things just evolve, and rewarding the failing county council, and three but it always looks like a confused mess to me. Local was seen as not meeting the criteria on credible geography government looks like a real mess in England outside with councils of adequate size. of London. It is all over the place and I really do not think this is good. I know it is not the Minister’s fault, Baroness Scott of Bybrook: I urge the Government but the department is not clear on what it is trying to to look again at the issue of consulting. I fully agree achieve. I remember discussions with the noble Lord, that it is about consulting local communities, local Lord Lansley, who lives in Cambridge. He described people. I have a problem when we take too much all the tiers of government in his county—and next door, notice of those district and county authorities that are there was just one tier. It is just shambolic. still there. With the greatest respect, they are trying to protect themselves,their officers—which is understandable Viscount Younger of Leckie: I cannot agree with the —their members and their authority. Their views are noble Lord. Surely, he would agree that there is good sometimes challenged by that. It should be local sense in talking to the locals to work through the communities that make the decision, not the local issues and to get their buy-in to what they want, within authorities within them. the parameters I have set out. I cannot see the problem with that. Already, a format is evolving: that this is the Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I promise that this will wish of local people all around the country, particularly be my last comment. The argument that we could not up north, where 37% of people are under the aegis of have a unitary authority for the whole county because mayoral authorities; that this is actually what local it would be seen as rewarding the county council that people want. has failed is rather weak. There was a failure of This is not so much a philosophical thing, but as political leadership. The way to deal with that is to the noble Lord will know, we have announced the remove the people and not let them stand again. Not devolution White Paper. This is an opportunity to going forward with the one-council option because it reflect and review. I do not know what is going to be in could be seen as a replica of the failed county council it or what will come out of it, but we are going to look is a weak reason. at all aspects of local government in the White Paper, which will be produced in due course. I hope it will Viscount Younger of Leckie: I pledge to write on help to allay the noble Lord’s fears. It might answer that point and to tie it in with the point made by the the question of my noble friend Lord Deben as to why noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. I have not addressed the Northamptonshire is treated differently from Cornwall. review of savings made. In my letter, I will attempt to There is no one-size-fits-all solution. For example, give the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, a response on discussions are going on in North Yorkshire about that matter and address the point raised by the noble York being a unitary. Cornwall, as we know, is treated Lord, Lord Liddle, on the position of ministerial powers. differently. It is important to come back to the point That comes down to giving a coherent view of how that this has got to be driven by local people deciding ministerial powers juxtapose with local ones. what they wish. I hope that that is helpful and that I have addressed the many points raised. As I said, a letter will be Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Again, I would agree coming that fully addresses the points that were made. with that statement, but the problem is that it is not Once again, I thank noble Lords for their contributions. the case. The Minister says that local people can decide, but they are given only one or two options. The Motion agreed. Government are not letting them decide; they are narrowing down the options to a specific number and Committee adjourned at 6.38 pm.