Pope Joan Discussion

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Pope Joan Discussion H-Women Pope Joan Discussion Page published by Kolt Ewing on Thursday, June 12, 2014 Pope Joan Discussion August 1996 Query From Caroline Nachman [email protected] 16 August 1996 Hello, I was recently informed of a 9th century pope, a woman named joan, who masqueraded as a man while she held office. There is a musical called "Pope Joan," whose creators insist that she really existed, it is not just legend. I would like more info on the subject. Thank you. >From Kimberli Pollard-Smith [email protected] 19 August 1996 Regarding Pope Joan--there is a bio coming out this fall on her. Unfortunately I don't remember the author or the publisher, but possibly a uc press title. >From Carolyn Brewer [email protected] 19 August 1996 It appears there really was a Pope Joan. Her biological sex was discovered when she gave birth to a child during a procession of some sort - after which I believe she was executed. There was a film on the TV recently in which her story was told - but it was included in a whole pile of other information about women in the church and I don't recall the title. Rumour has it that the biological sex of a newly elected pope has to be checked to make sure that it doesn't happen again. To do this I understand the pope-elect had to stand on a mirror. I suspect there are different examination procedures today!! >From Diana Paton [email protected] 19 August 1996 I don't know about empirical sources on Pope Joan, but take a look at Caryl Churchill's play Top Girls. Pope Joan is one of the characters. >From Patricia Lorcin [email protected] 19 August 1996 Lawrence Durrell's Pope Joan (1962) is a translation of Emmanuel Roydis' "life" of Pope Joan based on the legend that Pope John VIII was a woman. As well as being a good read, the preface might provide you with clues to further sources. Good luck. >From Jo Ann McNamara [email protected] 19 August 1996 Citation: Kolt Ewing. Pope Joan Discussion. H-Women. 07-20-2015. https://networks.h-net.org/node/24029/pages/31462/pope-joan-discussion Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License. 1 H-Women There was no such person and there never could have been such a person since popes were connected to the family politics of Rome far too intensely for an unknown person to achieve much status. The real scandal of the period (thought I personally consider it false witness) was the sexual politics of the leading women of Rome who did, in fact, seem to have had a dominant voice in the appointment of one or more popes due to their high social standing. For an account of the "Pope Joan" story as a product of the late eleventh century misogyny see Cesare OnofrioLa Papessa Giovanna (Rome: Romana Societa Editrice, 1979). For the context in which it evolved see my article, "Canossa" in Render Unto Caesar, edited by Sabrina P. Ramet and Donald Threadgold, (Washington: American U Press, 1995). >From Kathryn Wagnild Fuller [email protected] 19 August 1996 I don't have any biographical information on Pope Joan but she was among the women featured in Caryl Churchill's play "Top Girls" that came out in the early 1980s. >From Irene Stuber [email protected] 20 August 1996 In my various readings for Women of Achievement and Herstory, the authenticity of Pope Joan appears to have been an accepted part of Catholic folklore until the Reformation when the new religions took a much harder view of women and women's place. (Note the many pre-Luther paintings, etc of the trinity with Mary.) The Catholic Church then became more hard-line and began to denigrate women's place in society in keeping with the protestant philosophies of Luther, Knox, etc. My sources on this got lost with my hard drive crash of a couple of years ago so I'm going by memory. Church histories rather than women's history books should be consulted since so many of the latter are distant cousins to secondary sources. The legend of Pope Joan giving birth is obviously a male tale addition since any woman having given birth knows that such an occurrence is pretty fantastic. Only a man without experience around real women would think that giving birth is that simple. (And how did she GET pregnant without someone saying something? There weren't many doors in those days.) The proofing of a Pope's sex is not, however,far fetched in light of the Roman Catholic Church tradition of accepting that there was indeed a woman pope or person with somewhat female genitalia. >From Jo Ann McNamara [email protected] 21 August 1996 I'm sorry to do this again, but I can't say it loud enough. There was never a Pope Joan. It is unthinkable that the Catholic Church would even have accepted a woman as a priest let alone a pope. The story and the pregnancy cannot be separated. The pregnancy is the whole point of the story. It is a scurrilous tale that seems to have begun circulating late in the eleventh century. Naturally, it is set vaguely in some earlier period, usually prior to the mid-tenth century, probably to take advantage of other scurrilous stories circulated by imperialist chroniclers about the papacy before its "cleansing" by the German emperors. Those contemporary stories, however, concern the womanizing exploits of Citation: Kolt Ewing. Pope Joan Discussion. H-Women. 07-20-2015. https://networks.h-net.org/node/24029/pages/31462/pope-joan-discussion Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License. 2 H-Women various popes, particularly their putative liaisons with Roman noblewomen. The story rises out of an atmosphere of intense misogyny surrounding the investiture conflict and the imposition of celibacy on the clergy. Its purpose seems to be to warn the clergy that any impingement of females on the clerical precinct would have direst consequences. The "sexing of the popes" is another canard that seems to arise from a mistaken proto-archeologist's interpretation of a marble latrine chair found in the vicinity of the Lateran palace. I cannot imagine why feminists want to perpetuate this story or why any historians would for a moment accept a tale so completely lacking in authenticating sources. >From Maria Elena Raymond [email protected] 22 August 1996 I've noted with interest Jo Ann McNamara's emphatic denials that a person named "Pope Joan" existed. Just as Jo Ann has stated she can't believe feminists would want to perpetuate a story without any substantiation of any kind...I would like to know of substantiation showing she *didn't* exist...and I would like more reference that Jo Ann's own article...*with all due respect to Jo Ann* and her work. As a journalist, and an historian, I would like more than one source of proof...either way. FWIW, Maria Elena >From Jo Ann McNamara [email protected] 23 August 1996 The d'Onofrio book I cited in my first message is the best survey of the subject. The proof that this never happened is that no such thing appears in any contemporary source--indeed, no later source has enough specific information about the time of the so-called papacy or even the papal name that the putative Joan masqueraded under. My own article is only a background piece in regard to this subject where I use the story as evidence for the misogynistic atmosphere of the investiture period. The papacy is the world's oldest and best record keeper and they do keep track of every pop since Peter (though the first and second century entries have always been looked at with a bit of skepticism). It is also the world's oldest political football. The period in question is full of scandal concerning fornicating popes, heretical popes, simoniacal popes--nobody is doing a whitewash. The amusing thing about urban legends is that they cannot be disproved. No one has ever demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the New York sewers are not haunted by ravening alligators. No one has ever proved that inquisitive aliens do not regularly abduct nubile human women. But that does not give us license to invent history. >From Paul Halsall [email protected] 23 August 1996 Can Maria Elena *prove* that anyone *did not exist*? Rapunzel for instance, or Cinderella? The epistemological implications of arguing that historians not only have to show reasons for holding opinions, or for certifying facts, but also be willing to *disprove* any given suggested statement about the past are sufficient to bring about an immediate end to the historical enterprise and its immediate replacement with faux-mythmaking. Citation: Kolt Ewing. Pope Joan Discussion. H-Women. 07-20-2015. https://networks.h-net.org/node/24029/pages/31462/pope-joan-discussion Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License. 3 H-Women Pope Joan did not exist because the circumstances of the origin of the myth [discussed by the way, in some detail on Mediev-l a year or so ago, and available viz Alta Vista Searches of its archives] are known and explicable. >From Larry Ingle [email protected] 23 August 1996 I am no authority on the alleged "Pope Joan," but I do know that it is impossible to prove a negative.
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