Thursday Volume 527 12 May 2011 No. 156

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 12 May 2011

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Mrs Spelman: Whatever I said has resulted in a very House of Commons rapid departure by the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon). The waste review will look at waste in the round. We Thursday 12 May 2011 recognise the difficulties that incineration can cause locally, which is why we strongly support these decisions being made at local level. The House met at half-past Ten o’clock Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise; this is nothing to do with the Secretary of State. A Member must not leave PRAYERS the Chamber before his or her question has been concluded, whatever other pressures there might be.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): Recycling under the last Labour Government increased threefold, but this Government’s continued delays over the waste review have deprived British business of the certainty that it Oral Answers to Questions needs if it is to use resources in a smarter way and improve its reuse and recycling of materials. This is damaging for the economy and for the environment. Can the Secretary of State guarantee that the waste ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS review will enable business to make up the ground lost as a result of Government delay? Can she also guarantee that it will provide the right regulatory framework to The Secretary of State was asked— enable businesses to invest in these areas?

Departmental Waste Review Mrs Spelman: The hon. Gentleman wrongly credits his party with being at the centre of the improvement in 1. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): What recycling rates. The fact is that local authorities have recent representations she has received from local achieved this, and the majority of them are Conservative authorities on her Department’s waste review. [55086] controlled to boot. Perhaps we can also nail this myth about delay. Our business plan makes it clear that the The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and waste review, which was launched in June last year, will Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My ministerial be published in June this year. This is not a question of colleagues and I have met a wide range of local authority delay. The hon. Gentleman will have to wait just a short representatives to discuss our review of waste policy in while to see the importance that the Government attach England. Eighty local authorities, and a range of to undertaking a thorough review of waste, which includes partnership groups, responded to our call for evidence picking up some of the mess that the previous Government and many have participated in subsequent discussions left behind. with Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs officials, emphasising the diversity of local Allotments circumstances. 2. Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) Mrs Glindon: Can the Secretary of State tell me what (Lab): What recent discussions she has had with the DEFRA is doing to help local authorities to crack Secretary of State for Communities and Local down on persistent fly-tippers in rural and urban areas? Government on allotments. [55087]

Mrs Spelman: Responsibility for dealing with fly-tipping 8. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): What is also a matter for the Department for Communities recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State and Local Government, and I am sure that the hon. for Communities and Local Government on allotments. Lady is aware that, over time, the fines have been [55094] increased. The Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 makes provision for penalties The Minister of State, Department for Environment, for fly-tippers, and I want to make it perfectly clear Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): This Government from DEFRA’s perspective that it is a practice that we strongly support the need for more growing spaces to be abhor, and that we seek to catch and prosecute those made available for people to grow their own fruit and who perpetrate it. vegetables. Assertions that we would scrap the duty placed on local authorities to provide plots for growing Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): Given food to persons resident in the area are entirely false. that the South West Devon Waste Partnership has DEFRA officials and I are working with the Department decided that Plymouth is the right place for its energy- for Communities and Local Government to develop from-waste facility, will the Secretary of State please try further initiatives to release land that could be used for to persuade Devon county council, in its forthcoming allotment sites. consideration of an application for a commercial waste incinerator in south Devon, that we certainly do not Bridget Phillipson: I thank the Minister for his answer. need two incinerators so close to each other in the area? Four thousand people in my area currently have an [Interruption.] allotment or are on a waiting list for one. Can he 1335 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1336 reassure me that he will not support any measure that our needs—that is the result of their policies. Of course would scrap legal protection for allotments, and that he we are developing our own proposals. The Foresight will bring all possible pressure to bear on his colleagues report was produced under this Government and we in the DCLG? stand by it. It is a very comprehensive report and we will, of course, be responding to it with a series of Mr Paice: The short answer is yes. The longer answer proposals to put British agriculture back where it belongs— is that my colleagues in the DCLG have already made back on its feet. public statements to make it clear that there are no plans to weaken the protection for allotments. British Food Exports

Mr Speaker: I call Mr Dave Watts. He is not here. We 4. Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): What steps she is move on to Question 3. taking to support British food exports. [55089]

British Food Industry The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): DEFRA 3. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What steps she is leads on a number of initiatives to support British food taking to support the British food industry. [55088] exports, such as working with industry to develop export certification schemes for non-EU markets. A recent The Minister of State, Department for Environment, success has been certifying dairy products for export to Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The Government India. We are working with the food industry, and take the British food industry extremely seriously. We across government, to maximise the growth potential have established the industry-led taskforce on farming through overseas trade. That commitment is clear in the regulation; we have also invested £13.6 million in recently published UK trade and industry strategy. collaborative research and agreed an action plan to increase fruit and vegetable production; and we will Sajid Javid: I thank the Minister for his answer. Two publish the groceries code adjudicator Bill shortly. of my constituents run a very successful pet food company, Furthermore, on 26 January I wrote to all Departments First Class Foods Ltd. They are trying to tap into setting out the Government’s commitment that, subject international demand, but they face a significant obstacle to no overall increase in costs, they will source only food in China because, surprisingly, we do not have the that meets British or equivalent standards of production. relevant export licence. Will he help to bring good, Robert Halfon: Nazeing village, in my constituency, is wholesome, tasty British pet food to Chinese cats and a UK centre for greenhouse farming, and that is especially dogs by addressing this issue? true of the farm of Mr Franco Pullara. He is hoping to build a new plant to produce biogas, which will provide Mr Paice: I shall resist all the obvious temptations in him with renewable heat and power, but the rules are a that question. I am aware of First Class Foods in my minefield. What further assistance can the Minister hon. Friend’s constituency. The difficulties of entering provide to support such farming projects, and will he the Chinese market are not confined to pet food; it took meet Mr Pullara to discuss it? us three years to make the necessary import arrangements in respect of breeding pigs. However, my officials are Mr Paice: I am very much aware of a number of working with the Chinese Government and, in particular, growers in my hon. Friend’s constituency who are pre- their General Administration of Quality Supervision, eminent in glasshouse production, and I would be very Inspection and Quarantine to find a way forward so happy to meet this particular constituent. My hon. that his company can export good quality pet food to Friend is aware that the Department of Energy and China. Climate Change is undertaking a review of the feed-in tariffs for biogas production. Obviously we will have to Fish Discards await the outcome of that, but I hope that we can remove any other barriers to enable his constituent’s 5. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): What recent development to take place. discussions she has had with her EU counterparts on fish discards. [55091] Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): The UN’s Food and Agriculture Organisation forecast last The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for month that global food production will have to rise by Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): 70% by 2050, and that goes alongside the twin challenges Since the ministerial meeting I attended in Brussels on 1 for government of reducing agriculture’s greenhouse March, discussions have progressed at official level. gas emissions and ending food waste, which costs British Officials attended an event on 3 May with other member families an estimated £5 billion a year. Why then, four states, industry representatives and other interested parties, months after the publication of the foresight report, where the discussion about a discard ban continued. I have the Government produced no plan to increase consider that any move towards a discard ban must be sustainable food production? Was the president of the backed up by genuinely effective, enforceable and affordable National Farmers Union not right to indicate that a measures, driving more selective behaviour towards reducing Department without a plan for food means a Government what is caught in the first place. without a grip on the vital issue of food security? Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the Minister for his Mr Paice: That is a bit rich, given that the Labour answer. He will certainly have my support and good Government spent 13 years running down our agricultural wishes, and those of my Front-Bench team, in making industry so that we now have to import to cover half progress on that particular action. When he does so, 1337 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1338 will he also raise with the European Union and with to ensure that it does remain so. I was dismayed to hear John West Foods Ltd that company’s performance on tuna recently about the decision of the handline fishermen in discards and tuna fishing generally? Some 49,000 people the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and I want all fishermen have signed a Greenpeace petition calling for improvements to try to get into accredited schemes like this one, which in that performance, and John West remains the only shows that they are not only fishing sustainably but retailer and producer not to have taken action in the accessing the market at a premium price. We want to United Kingdom. make every effort to sustain the MRC accredited scheme.

Richard Benyon: I entirely understand the right hon. Fishermen Gentleman’s point. It is worth applauding companies such as Princes that have moved over to line-caught tuna only. Many other multiples and supermarkets now 6. Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): sell only tuna that has been caught by sustainable What steps she is taking to support fishermen. [55092] means from sustainable stocks. I entirely endorse what the right hon. Gentleman said. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): Before I answer the question, I want say that all Members Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I are in awe of the hon. Lady’s courage in standing up for congratulate the Minister on the negotiations about her constituents and the industry she loves so soon after discards, which is a wholly unacceptable practice. The the tragic loss of her husband Commission seems to be moving towards a quota for 15 years. Will he spare a thought for the Coble fishermen Fishermen are facing significant challenges, particularly in Filey who have no quota, want to fish cod at the in the English under-10 metre fleet. Forthcoming domestic moment, but are unable to do so under the current and European reforms offer the opportunity fundamentally regime? to change things and put the industry on a sustainable footing in the longer term. In the meantime, along with Richard Benyon: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. financial support available through the European Fisheries We have to work off track records and historical fishing Fund, the Marine Management Organisation is working effort. I understand the many concerns of fishermen in with industry effectively to manage the current system, the non-quota areas. They want to be part of a reformed to secure additional quota through swaps and to keep policy and I will certainly consult my hon. Friend and fisheries open as long as possible. Members of all parties to make sure that we take forward a long-term policy that has sustainability at its Sheryll Murray: I thank the Minister for those kind heart. words. I have a special interest in this subject as a custodian Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): How of an under-10 metre trawler. The impact assessment will the Minister assess the success of the catch quota accompanying the consultation on the reform of fisheries trials that have been going on in Scotland and England? management arrangements in England has not considered Does he foresee an extension of that effort to tackle key sensitive assumptions. Will my hon. Friend test the discards? sensitivities and risks for the impact of fixed quota allocations on under-10 metre vessels that, for various Richard Benyon: When I was in opposition, I visited reasons, move between ports located in different ICES— the hon. Lady’s constituency and talked to fishermen International Council for the Exploration of the Sea—areas. who were very concerned about having cameras on Will he also assess the impact of fluctuations in fuel their boats as part of this scheme. Those concerns have prices? now, by and large, dissipated and fishermen across the country are joining similar schemes. We have signed a Richard Benyon: I think the law of unintended declaration with France, Germany and Denmark, saying consequences is more prevalent in fisheries management that catch quotas should be at the heart of a reformed than in anything else I have encountered. I want to common fisheries policy. That is really good news. I make sure that our reforms for the under-10 metre applaud the fishermen in the hon. Lady’s constituency sector work. That is why we developed a consultation, and elsewhere; there will be no cod discarded from building on the sustainable access to inshore fisheries boats fishing from her constituency in the catch quota that was started by the last Government. I hope that we scheme this year. can put inshore fisheries on a sustainable footing. I will look at anything that stands in its way, so I will consult Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Is the Minister aware officials on what my hon. Friend has said and get back that the 200 fishermen in the Cornish mackerel handliners to her. association have decided not to continue their certification with the Marine Stewardship Council because they Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ judged that the costs clearly outweighed the benefits, Co-op): I am sure that the Minister will know of reports particularly bearing in mind that the MSC appears to this morning about of the Commission’s proposals which have become more business-led and supermarket-driven are to be issued in July, referring to longer quota in its standards, allowing some high-impact trawler-based periods. I hope that he will use his good offices in the methods to achieve certification? negotiations to ensure that no EU-wide conditions are applied that do not take account of local conditions Richard Benyon: Marine Stewardship Council and practices. It is important for the sustainability of accreditation is a highly respected brand globally, and fisheries throughout UK waters for local practices not must remain so. We must do all we can to work with it to be disregarded. 1339 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1340

Richard Benyon: I respect the hon. Gentleman’s country back at the centre of government. May I encourage knowledge of the issue. He is absolutely right. One of him, our hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John our problems in British waters is that we have, by and Glen) and all other Members present to persuade their large, a very mixed fishery, and the top-down system constituents to engage with the new rural and farming management has not taken that into account. We are network? It will provide an opportunity for people to pushing for some form of at least sea-based and perhaps have direct access to Ministers, and I hope that every more local control and management of our fisheries. I Member will take advantage of that. agree with the hon. Gentleman that at the heart of a reformed fisheries policy is the need for local factors to Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I welcome the be allowed to play a role, and that many of them should Department’s effort to engage with rural communities, be controlled by member states or more locally to which is obviously important in the south-west, but is ensure that we have the right and most sustainable the Secretary of State aware of the growing fear that the policies. Department is beginning to represent the interests of food producers and farmers at the expense of those of Access to Ministers food consumers? What steps is she taking to ensure that consumers are involved in departmental decision making 7. John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): What steps she is as well? taking to increase the level of access to Ministers and engagement with departmental decision making for Mrs Spelman: I do not recognise that distorted view farming and rural communities. [55093] of what the Department does. If I were to list just a few of our achievements over the last 12 months, they 13. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What steps would point strongly to the breadth of our remit . For she is taking to increase the level of access to Ministers instance, I helped to secure agreement on biodiversity and engagement with departmental decision making in Nagoya, the Minister of State, Department for for farming and rural communities. [55099] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and (Mr Paice), helped to secure the ban on illegal timber Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Our new rural logging and ensure that the ban on commercial whaling communities policy unit is building links with a wide was retained, and we will shortly produce a natural range of organisations representing and supporting rural environment White Paper, the first for 20 years. That communities. We are also encouraging the development should give a strong assurance to all Members and of a new rural and farming network enabling people everyone we know who cares deeply about the protection from different parts of the country to advise Ministers of the environment. directly on farming, food and rural issues. Forests and Woodlands John Glen: I thank my right hon. Friend for that helpful reply. 9. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What steps her Department is taking to encourage greater community One of the challenges facing rural communities is the involvement in the running of local forests and sense of isolation that results from poor access to woodland. [55095] broadband and voice calls. How will my right hon. Friend ensure that Ministers address the problem of The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and rural communities’ feeling of apartness from government Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I recently had in regard to lack of access to online means of the privilege of planting a tree with the Friends of communication? Kingfisher Country Park, the Tree Council, Keep Britain Tidy, BTCV and local tree wardens to mark the milestone Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend is right to raise this of 100,000 trees planted as part of our big tree plant. point. Those living in rural areas with no access to Since the launch in December, we have helped local broadband are at a digital disadvantage, which is why communities and civil society partners across the country the coalition Government have committed £530 million to plant trees where they live and work. to assisting the roll-out of superfast broadband to those areas. That is particularly important to farmers, who Mark Pawsey: I thank the Secretary of State for her are expected to file their forms on line, but it is also reply. In January 2000, ownership of Brandon wood in important to children, who are nowadays expected to my constituency passed from the Forestry Commission file their homework on line. to the Friends of Brandon Wood and became the first community woodland in England. Since then, volunteers Graham Evans: Does the Secretary of State agree that have worked hard to provide a network of footpaths for one of the most damaging characteristics of the last all-weather and all-ability walking throughout the woods, Government was their apparent distance from issues and local schools have been involved. Will the Minister affecting people living in rural communities such as ensure that the Independent Panel on Forestry fully mine? Can she reassure my constituents that people considers the benefits that can arise from local ownership living in the countryside will be given every opportunity of woodlands such as that of Brandon wood? to ensure that their voices are heard directly when it comes to rural policy making? Mrs Spelman: I am sure Members know this, but I should perhaps point out that my hon. Friend has a Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He degree in estate management, and his constituency is has given the Conservatives strong backing from 2009 therefore very blessed given its appetite for engagement onwards on the need to put the rural heart of the in community forestry. Brandon wood is one of the best 1341 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1342 examples of community forestry, and I suggest that my “More consistent reporting of emissions should help investors hon. Friend should pass it directly to the IPF, because make better use of such data”. that panel is open to all members of the public, and part Does the Secretary of State therefore agree with me and of its work will involve going around the country. He the 60,000 people who have taken the time to join has an excellent opportunity to commend this example Christian Aid’s campaign that consistency can be achieved to the panel. only if the scheme becomes mandatory?

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Does the Secretary Mrs Spelman: We cannot pre-empt the outcome before of State agree that one of the best ways of getting local the consultation, but institutional investors want this people further involved in woodland management would information in order to be able to make a more accurate be by progressing the wood fuel strategy? Responsibility assessment of companies. Most big companies already for that now lies with her colleagues in the Department report their greenhouse gas emissions, but this is the of Energy and Climate Change of course. Several months perfect time for the hon. Lady and her colleagues to ago I had a meeting with the Minister of State, Department take part in the consultation, so that views may be of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for ascertained. Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), at which it was agreed that the programme could be doubled, but that it Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Although was important that both Departments work together we all want to encourage companies, particularly big on this because it is important that both demand and companies, to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, supply are matched up and incentivised. does the Secretary of State agree that there is a risk of over-burdensome regulation, particularly on small and Mrs Spelman: The hon. Gentleman is right to point medium-sized enterprises, which will result in only a out the potential of wood fuel as part of a portfolio of very small reduction in carbon emissions? renewable energy sources. We work very closely with our colleagues at DECC on this matter. We share a Mrs Spelman: The coalition Government are committed vision for the role of renewable energy, and I will to relieving the unnecessary burden of red tape on all of address the wood fuel strategy with my DECC colleagues. business, but we understand that pressures can be particularly burdensome on SMEs. If my hon. Friend Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I doubt that looks at the proposals in the consultation, he will see the Secretary of State will be aware of Nottinghamshire that these concerns have been taken account of, and I police’s efforts to clamp down on antisocial behaviour am sure that if he participates in the consultation and in one of my woodlands in Sherwood, but does she further reinforces the views he has expressed in the agree that opening up woodlands to members of the Chamber, it will all add weight to the outcome of the public for the right use serves to drive out such antisocial consultation. behaviour? Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): May I start by saying Mrs Spelman: I can well imagine the problems. I how unhappy the Opposition are, along with the National suspect that every Member has some woodland in their Farmers Union, that DEFRA questions have been castrated constituency, so we will all know that that environment to a mere 45 minutes, although I understand the can, from time to time, attract the unwelcome attentions Government’s desire to give more time to their stellar of those who perpetrate antisocial behaviour. It is therefore parliamentary performer, the Deputy Prime Minister? all the more important that people in our communities In opposition, the Conservative party promised to are vigilant and active in the right use of woodlands “bring forward the date that the largest companies are required to and green spaces, so that, as far as possible, we stamp report on carbon emissions”, out the antisocial behaviour that spoils them for everyone. yet the consultation the Government published yesterday gives companies an option to do nothing. We heard Carbon Reporting earlier this week that the hawks in the Treasury and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are 10. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): What holding up Cabinet agreement to the UK’s fourth carbon plans she has to bring forward proposals for mandatory budget. Is there a Cabinet split on carbon reporting carbon reporting by businesses. [55096] as well?

The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Mrs Spelman: We must set the record straight, for the Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Yesterday, my sake of all hon. Members. It was the official Opposition noble Friend the Under-Secretary, Lord Henley, launched who asked for the Deputy Prime Minister to be given a public consultation seeking views on whether or not a 15-minute slot, which had to come from one of the regulations should be introduced to make it mandatory longer sessions of oral questions. If one analyses the for some companies to report their greenhouse gas number of questions that Opposition Members have emissions. I commend Christian Aid for raising awareness tabled, one will see that the answer lies in their own of this issue in Christian Aid week, and I hope that that hands. A glance at the Order Paper will confirm that will also serve to raise awareness of our consultation twice as many Members on the coalition Benches tabled among members of the public and encourage them to questions to DEFRA. engage in it. Mr Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State has made Pamela Nash: I thank the Secretary of State for her her point, but she must quickly answer the question on answer. Just yesterday, Lord Henley stated: the Order Paper, and then we will move on. 1343 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1344

Mrs Spelman: The question on the Order Paper concerns Caroline Lucas: I thank the Secretary of State for her woodland cover and encouraging communities to plant answer, by which I am not entirely reassured. Does she more trees. I think I have made it clear how—[Interruption.] know that in my constituency, in Brighton and Hove, As for carbon reporting, the consultation contains four standards for nitrogen dioxide are regularly exceeded at options for companies to engage in carbon reporting. 20 sites across the city? Much of the pollution—as well The consultation was launched yesterday, and this is the as its costly health consequences—is caused by traffic. time for people to express their views on the options in Will she therefore absolutely guarantee to defend the the paper. regulations on air quality that set health protection standards should they come under threat from the Red Diesel insidious red tape challenge?

11. George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): What Mrs Spelman: The air quality directive is a piece of discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the European legislation. Therefore, it is not involved in any Exchequer on the effects on British farmers of planned red tape challenge. I share with the hon. Lady a desire EU changes to rates of duty on red diesel. [55097] to improve air quality, as it has enormous benefits for the environment and for human health. The fact is that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for air quality demands at a European level are very ambitious Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): and we are working closely with local authorities, The Secretary of State has not discussed this issue the Mayor of London and others to do all we can to directly with the Chancellor, but officials have been in improve air quality. contact with the Treasury. The Commission’s proposals Zoo Inspectors will not affect the ability of member states to set a lower duty on the off-road use of diesel as vehicle fuel. However, 14. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): the UK does not support a mandatory pan-EU carbon How many inspections have been carried out by her tax, and nor does it support the Commission’s proposal, Department’s zoo inspectors since May 2010; and if which would require 27 member states’ unanimous she will make a statement. [55100] agreement before it could be adopted. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, George Freeman: I thank the Minister for that reassuring Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): According to answer. The EU draft proposal to remove the tax exemption our records, from 1 May 2010 to 9 May 2011 DEFRA’s on agricultural red diesel sent shockwaves through farming nominated zoo inspectors carried out 59 inspections. communities in my constituency and across British This is a matter for local authorities, however, and sadly agriculture. After a decade in which the Labour party they do not always inform us when inspections take put up duty on red diesel four times, may I urge him to place. make the strongest representations across Whitehall and show that it is we on the Government Benches who Mr Cunningham: I thank the Minister for that answer. are standing up for the rural economy? Can he give me the figures for the inspection of circuses as well? Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend is to be applauded for standing up and campaigning on behalf of farmers Mr Paice: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, there has in his constituency. They need to know that they have been a lot of speculation about circuses. There have got a Government obsessed with keeping them competitive been recent press reports that the Austrian Government against a lot of international and domestic challenges. have been taken to court for their attempt to ban wild The Government recognise the value of farmers in animals in circuses, so our Government can hardly producing food, protecting the environment and being recommend something that might not be legal. I can the guardians of ecosystem services, and they now have assure him, however, that the proposals we will bring a Government who are on their side. forward shortly will be tough enough to ensure that animal welfare in circuses is properly protected. Red Tape Challenge Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): It has 12. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): been reported, and suggested by the Minister, that there What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary will be enhanced inspections rather than a ban on wild of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the animals in circuses. Labour’s consultation showed that environmental regulations considered for possible 94% of respondents favoured a ban. The petition in The revocation under the red tape challenge. [55098] Independent attracted nearly 15,000 signatures in the past week, and crucially on 3 April DEFRA briefed The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and that it favoured a ban as well. Another month, more Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I want to make it drift and no announcement: is it dither, delay or No. 10 clear that there is no intention of relaxing existing levels that is preventing the Secretary of State from showing of environmental protection. As a former MEP, the some leadership? hon. Lady will be well aware that most environmental legislation emanates from European directives, and their Mr Paice: The hon. Gentleman obviously did not complete removal would not be possible. Nevertheless, listen to the answer I just gave. Whether we like it or it might be possible to improve their implementation not, this court case is going on in Europe and therefore arrangements. The red tape challenge should therefore the British Government could not bring forward a be embraced by all as an excellent opportunity to gather proposal—although I am interested to hear that he ideas on how we can regulate better. would—that might well prove shortly to be unlawful. 1345 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1346

Topical Questions the natural environment—in forests and wild places. The number of school visits is collapsing under the T1. [55111] Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): If she will present Government. What is the Secretary of State make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. doing with her Education counterpart to boost the number of trips that children make to the green The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and environment? Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My Department’s priorities are to protect the environment, support farmers Richard Benyon: If the hon. Gentleman can curtail and strengthen the green economy.On Monday, I launched his enthusiasm for a few weeks and wait to see what is in a report on climate resilient infrastructure with Lord the natural environment White Paper, I think he will Krebs and Simon Kirby of National Rail at the remodelled rejoice that this Government get outdoor learning. The Blackfriars station, along with my right hon. Friend the Department is working very closely with my right hon. Minister of State, Department for Transport. This dry Friend the Secretary of State for Education and others, spring—the second in succession—which we are closely and is engaging with great visionaries such as Kate monitoring, reminds us all of the need to adapt to the Humble and others for whom this is a passion, which increasing frequency of extreme weather events. we share. Mr Spellar: I thank the Secretary of State for that reply. She mentioned climate, so may I ask why she is T3. [55113] Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) delaying bringing forward legislation on water and why (LD): Early this morning, my right hon. Friend the she is even considering compulsory water metering in Secretary of State committed to publishing the waste areas where there is no water shortage? In this month of review in June. It is obviously going to be a landmark the Chelsea flower show, has she considered the impact document for the United Kingdom, so will she commit of this water tax on gardeners or even talked to her to bringing it to the House for debate? Health colleagues about the benefits of gardening for body and soul? What do this Government have against Mrs Spelman: It is important that all DEFRA’s allotment holders and gardeners? publications are laid before the House; we go to great lengths to keep the House informed of all our activities. Mrs Spelman: There were a number of things there. The waste review is, as the hon. Gentleman says, a As part of our achievements in our first year in office I landmark publication, and we look forward to publishing would count the implementation of most of the Pitt it shortly. We will make it widely available to hon. review, so there has been clear progress in implementation. Members. The water White Paper is due later this year, and I just mentioned how closely we are monitoring the water Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): In view situation. I am very concerned that it is already having of the forthcoming European Commission conference an irreversible impact on agricultural production and I on the LIFE+ programme to protect biodiversity, will have convened a meeting of all stakeholders next week the Secretary of State give me an assurance that officials as it is very important that we take this matter extremely in the Environment Agency and Natural England will seriously. work right across the UK to make sure that we can get the maximum funding from that programme, particularly T2. [55112] Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) for the proposal that I am working on in Stoke-on-Trent (Con): The Department has spent many millions of to improve access to natural resources and to keep pounds buying up some of our best farmland next to biodiversity? the Ouse washes to provide extra habitat for birds. The Littleport and Downham internal drainage board has expressed grave concern at the increased flooding risk Mrs Spelman: I share the hon. Lady’s passion for the to homes and other farmland. This action undermines protection of biodiversity and the enhancement of food security and is not a good use of public funds at a biodiversity where there has been biodiversity loss. I am time of austerity. Will the Minister agree to meet me sure that every sinew will be strained by every member and a local delegation to discuss that, and will his of the DEFRA family to make sure that the United Department now publish a detailed assessment of the Kingdom does well out of any resources that are being costs associated with it so that we can assess it made available through the European Union so that we properly? can benefit by putting those resources where they will make a difference—with the protection of biodiversity. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): T4. [55114] Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The short answer is yes. Our policies have to balance When my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney nature conservation against our commitment to food (Mr Cameron) and I were campaigning long and hard security. I want to know how established schemes that against the introduction of compulsory horse passports— have been running for many years are working, and the identification cards for horses—legal advice to DEFRA development of the scheme that my hon. Friend talks was that Ministers had three options. The first was to about dates back almost a decade. I want to make sure seek to extend the EU derogation on the subject for a that we are getting things right, so I appreciate his further 10 years, the second was to bring in a minimal raising that point. regime so that horses at abattoirs would have to have some kind of documentation, and the third was an Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The all-singing, all-dancing, bells and whistles option, requiring Minister will know that children learn best when they every zebra, donkey, horse and pony in the land to have are out of the classroom. Often they learn very well in an ID card. Will the Minister re-examine that legal 1347 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1348 advice from 2005 to work out whether it might be on fisheries and marine issues, we work as one and possible to make horse ID cards voluntary rather than agree, as we did, on nearly everything so that at the end compulsory? of the day we work towards sound policies on food security, conservation and protecting valuable ecosystems. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, I will continue to do so. Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Iamvery much aware of my hon. Friend’s passion for this issue, Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the Minister. I some of which I share. The advice I have received is that am trying to help Back-Bench Members, but in topical the decision that the previous Government unsurprisingly questions we must have single, short, supplementary made to develop the most bureaucratic and regulatory questions and short answers. option is irreversible, but I am more than happy to look at it again. T6. [55116] Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con): British dairy farmers such as Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): Graham Tibbenham from Weybread in my constituency Notwithstanding the Minister of State’s previous defiant are struggling to be paid a fair price for their milk by answer, could the Secretary of State find it in her heart British supermarkets. I am sure that the Minister would to praise The Independent for its campaign to ban wild like to help. What can his Department do? animals from circuses? Perhaps she will join the 10,000 people who have already signed the petition that the Mr Paice: I know the dairy industry, and many newspaper is running by signing it herself. sectors face great difficulties, particularly with regard to price. The Government are about to publish proposals— Mrs Spelman: Every Member of the House can find we trust with all-party support—for a groceries code it in their heart to do that—of course they can. We have adjudicator, which we hope will go a long way towards all read newspaper reports about the terrible suffering helping with that. There are measures, too, going through of Anne the elephant, and I am very glad that she is the EU with regards to contracts. We do not think that being spared and has a new, far more enjoyable home. they are the sole answer, as some do, but we think that However, the report in The Independent clearly states they are a step forward. that the Austrian Government have been taken to court by a German circus company because of a breach of Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East the EU services directive. It would be irresponsible of Cleveland) (Lab): The Protection of Badgers Act 1992 any Government—I hope he is not saying that he would states that a badger cull can be carried out only between do this if he were part of a Government—to recommend May and September. Given that any change to the Act something that is under legal dispute. would require secondary legislation, which could be introduced only after 1 October, will the Minister say T5. [55115] Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): whether there will be a badger cull this year? Yesterday at the Westminster youth fête, I was delighted to join other hon. Members in signing the Red Tractor 4 Mr Paice: The hon. Gentleman is aware that we Wheels manifesto. I know that the Government and my published a consultation last autumn and, as I said to right hon. Friend are committed to supporting UK the National Farmers Union annual general meeting, it farmers and to giving consumers information about produced a number of challenges that we need to work environmental quality and assurance. How will they through. We will make an announcement about a total support the initiative? package of measures to combat this awful disease as soon as we possibly can. Mr Paice: The Government strongly support the Red Tractor initiative, and I am sorry that I could not attend T7. [55117] Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) yesterday’s event, as I was at an event elsewhere in the (LD): I draw the attention of the House to my entry in country. However, I understand that it was a great the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. success. As my hon. Friend well knows, we have distributed The Minister has kindly agreed to meet a delegation a circular, and we hope to introduce Government buying from the Brecon and Radnor NFU, which will want to standards, as we will require all parts of central Government know what representations his Department have made to buy food produced to British standards which, in on behalf of upland farmers in negotiations on the most cases, will mean Little Red Tractor standards. common agricultural policy. Perhaps he would like to rehearse his answer. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In the past, there has been exceptional pressure on the fishing industry at Mr Paice: I look forward to meeting my hon. Friend’s sea, which has spread to food production on land. In farmers next week, and I will give them a longer answer. particular, the problems are coming from China, which However, the short answer is that the Government is buying up a lot of food products. Has the Minister published their own uplands review a couple of months had discussions with Ministers in other regions, particularly ago. As for the CAP, we have reservations about the the most recent Minister of Agriculture and Rural Commission’s initial proposals to top-slice pillar 1 payments Development in Northern Ireland, to agree a strategy for less favoured areas. We do not think that that is the and policy to address that issue? best way forward, because it would be much more bureaucratic. We think that they are best funded from Richard Benyon: I look forward to building again the pillar 2, but it is a very early stage in the negotiations good relationship that I had with devolved Ministers and we will have to see what works. However, we from all kinds of different parties in the different parts recognise the sensitive difficulties, including of remoteness, of the United Kingdom to make sure that, particularly for farmers in upland areas. 1349 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1350

ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE Friend write to me, placing a copy in the Library, describing examples of where parishes have increased The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the number of weddings, with good preparation and the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, after care, and will he encourage the archbishops to was asked— ensure that there is more of the same? Voting Preferences Tony Baldry: I assure my hon. Friend that the archbishops, bishops and indeed all the Church of 1. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): If the England believe strongly in marriage and want to encourage Electoral Commission will amend its guidance so that couples to consider getting married in church. There is only a vote cast that indicates a positive preference for now a website, www.yourchurchwedding.org, which offers a candidate is counted as a valid vote. [55121] information on how prospective couples can get married in a church and provides a ceremony planner for them Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): The Electoral to design their own service. Every church wants to Commission informs me that its guidance to returning welcome couples who wish to get married in church, officers for dealing with doubtful ballot papers is based and I am certainly happy to write to him as requested. on the statutory rules for elections and case law in this area. The decision to accept or reject a ballot paper lies Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Last week in with the returning officer. Westminster Hall there was a very clear debate on families, in which the issue of marriages came up in Mr Hollobone: In the recent local elections in the particular. I have been approached about the matter of borough of Kettering, one seat was decided by one vote, price and fees. Will the hon. Gentleman give some and the ballot paper in question had no, no and no indication of whether the Church would be prepared to against the three candidates from one party and no consider lower fees, because as we all know, the price for other marks. That was counted as a positive vote for the marriages is becoming exorbitant? three candidates from the other party. Will my hon. Friend advise me on which aspect of legislation we need Tony Baldry: The hon. Gentleman missed the chance to change to correct that injustice? only the other day to consider in Committee the occasional Mr Streeter: My hon. Friend was kind enough to fees for the Church of England. He will find that the fee show me a likeness of the offending ballot paper earlier paid to the church for conducting a marriage is actually this week, and I have considerable sympathy for the very modest in comparison with the overall costs. We point he makes. However, the situation is covered by are very keen to ensure that no one should feel in any rule 47(3) of the Local Elections (Principal Areas) way deterred from getting married in church as a result (England and Wales) Rules 2006, with which most hon. of the fees that are payable. Members will be very familiar. It states that a ballot paper shall not be deemed void if an intention that the vote shall be for one or more candidates clearly appears. ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE He may wish to take up his laudable campaign to change the rules with the relevant Minister. The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission, CHURCH COMMISSIONERS was asked— Voter Registration The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, was asked— 3. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): What steps the Weddings Electoral Commission is taking to increase voter registration among hard-to-reach groups. [55123] 2. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): The commission’s increase the number of weddings performed by the public information campaigns are targeted at groups Church of England. [55122] that are less likely to be on the electoral register. The commission also sets standards for electoral registration The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): officers, provides them with guidance and materials to The Church of England’s weddings project is a package increase electoral registration, and provides targeted of training and resources now being used in two thirds support where underperformance is found. The commission of Church of England dioceses and is designed to has recently announced that it will take specific steps encourage and promote the local parish church as a with the 45 electoral registration officers in Great Britain choice for weddings. It follows recent changes introduced who have not met the standards for a number of years. by the Church to broaden the choice of church venues available for couples wishing to marry. Robert Halfon: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the reasons for low voting numbers is lack of literacy Andrew Selous: We have strong Government support and people being unable to read the forms? In my for marriage and 90% of young people say that they constituency, we have problems with literacy. What is he want to get married, yet the number of marriages has doing to increase the powers of the Electoral Commission halved since 1972 and it is at its lowest since 1895. As to help those with literacy problems so that they can this is a serious issue of social justice, will my hon. register to vote? 1351 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1352

Mr Streeter: My hon. Friend is right to raise the 12 tribes of Israel and is home to a yew tree that is problems confronting those with literacy challenges. estimated to be several hundred years old. Does my The Electoral Commission uses a number of media, hon. Friend agree that the protection of such trees is including radio and TV, in its targeted campaigning to extremely important in maintaining the historic settings do its best to reach everyone. It also produces a range of of our great churches? information in an easy-read format, which can be found on its website, but following my hon. Friend’s interest Tony Baldry: It is fantastic that Holy Trinity, Stratford, in this important matter I will certainly speak to the has planted 12 new yew trees, but my hon. Friend Electoral Commission to see what more can be done. highlights the fact that a number of older yew trees, designated as ancient or veteran, have not had adequate Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Can I statutory protection. The Church of England is determined raise a matter very dear to your heart, Mr Speaker, to do all that it can to ensure that every yew tree in our about how we involve more people in the work of churchyards is properly protected. Parliament through electoral registration? Will the hon. Gentleman look at the ways in which some pilot funding Fiona Bruce: It is excellent to hear from my hon. could be secured to assist those in the parish and town Friend that ancient yew trees are being preserved and councils of Kidsgrove in my constituency with setting protected in that way, but even with best practice no tree up a youth parliament in order to make young people will last for ever. What is being done to introduce new aware of how our parliamentary democracy and electoral trees to our churchyards so that future generations system work? might enjoy that attractive part of our churchyard heritage? Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission is very keen to increase electoral registration and engagement in Tony Baldry: I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend democracy. I will certainly take forward the hon. Lady’s that on the eve of the millennium the Conservation very interesting suggestion to the commission, and we Foundation charity presented churches throughout the will write to her with what I hope will be a positive country with some 8,500 young yew trees, propagated response. from trees estimated to be at least 2,000 years old. We are now asking churches that planted millennium yews to record their growth and condition on Biodiversity day, which is on Sunday 22 May. I hope, however, that a CHURCH COMMISSIONERS number of churches up and down the land will follow the example of Holy Trinity, Stratford, and consider planting 12 new yew trees to represent either the 12 tribes The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church of Israel or, indeed, the 12 apostles. Commissioners, was asked— Churchyard Trees Biodiversity in Churchyards 5. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): What 4. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): What steps the Church Commissioners are taking to encourage steps the Church Commissioners are taking to ensure churches to develop and foster biodiversity in churchyards. that ancient trees in churchyards are protected. [55124] [55125]

8. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What steps the Tony Baldry: The Church of England, through its Church Commissioners are taking to ensure that own environmental campaign “Shrinking the Footprint”, ancient trees in churchyards are protected. [55128] along with Natural England is supporting an application to the Heritage Lottery Fund by the charity Caring for The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): God’s Acre to extend its work encouraging and supporting Ancient yews are defined as trees older than 250 years churchyard biodiversity schemes nationwide. and possibly as much as 5,000 years old. Yew trees were felled on a huge scale for English longbows between the Mr Gray: North Wiltshire has some of the finest and 13th and 16th centuries. The yew tree has been an oldest churchyards anywhere in England—one thinks important part of historical religious practice, and in of Malmesbury abbey, St Bartholomew’s in Wootton Britain the Celts and Romans thought it to be associated Basset, St Mary’s in Calne—and dozens of tiny, ancient, with immortality, regeneration and protection from evil. hidden churchyards miles from anywhere. What can the In large numbers of cases, the ancient yew trees in Church Commissioners do to encourage greater biodiversity churchyards are significantly older than the churches in them while preserving their peaceful, quiet charm? occupying the surrounding land. Many yew trees trace their history back to sacred groves and other such Tony Baldry: The Wiltshire living churchyards project significant sacred places of earlier civilisation. There has 45 participating churchyards, helped and supported are eight sites of ancient yew trees recorded in Warwickshire by the Wiltshire Wildlife Trust, Wiltshire Churches and 12 in Cheshire. Together and Social Responsibility in Wiltshire. As my hon. Friend tells the House, Wiltshire has a unique and Mr Speaker: We are much better informed! rich diversity of landscape, and there are annual seminars at which Wiltshire living churchyards awards certificates Nadhim Zahawi: I thank my hon. Friend for that for continued wildlife management. The Bishops of answer. As well as being the final resting place of the Bristol and of Salisbury and the Church locally are great bard, William Shakespeare, Holy Trinity church determined that churches throughout Wiltshire should in Stratford-on-Avon has 12 yew trees representing the be opportunities to celebrate biodiversity. 1353 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1354

Gift Aid identification when selling lead and to photograph each person when their identity is checked, and a requirement 6. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): How much the on scrap yards to report suspicious activity or persons Church Commissioners received through the gift aid to local police forces. scheme in the past 10 years. [55126] It is difficult to underestimate the damage that this is doing. The number of claims— Tony Baldry: Church of England parishes recovered £82 million in gift aid from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Mr Speaker: Order. It would be very difficult for me Customs in 2009, which is the last year for which we to underestimate the comprehensiveness of the hon. have data. Over the past 10 years, we believe that the Gentleman’s reply, which I think I can safely say is Church has recovered a total of nearly £713 million unsurpassed in the House. from parish donations; this excluded donations made at cathedrals. Women Priests and Bishops Jeremy Lefroy: I welcome the recent measure in the Budget to allow donations up to £5,000 for which 9. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) declarations have not been made to have tax recovered (LD): What recent assessment the Church Commissioners on them. What measures are the Church Commissioners have made of the financial consequences for the Church taking to ensure that parishes take up this welcome of England of (a) women priests and (b) women bishops. opportunity? [55129] Tony Baldry: That provision in the Budget was very Tony Baldry: The General Synod of the Church of welcome, as was the provision for the small donations England legislated to make special financial provision gift aid scheme, because each year, in addition to using for the 441 clergy who resigned from ministry between planned giving envelopes, people put into the collection 1994 and 2004 as a result of opposition to the admission plate some £58 million of loose change, and the scheme of women to the priesthood. The total cost of that to will be of considerable assistance in recovering tax on the Church Commissioners was £27.5 million plus a that money as well. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. further call of £2.4 million on the unfunded pension The Church has to make the best possible use of funds scheme. The draft legislation to enable women to become that are given to it in meeting social need and ensuring bishops makes no financial provision for those who that churches can be places of community resource. might leave should it in due course pass into law. That also means their being places not just of worship Simon Hughes: Now that the last remaining people but for the widest possible community use, whether it be who had a long-term philosophical commitment to for cafés, concerts, crèches or other uses for the community opposing women in the ministry appear to have left the as a whole. Church of England, may I urge the Church Commissioners Lead Theft to move with all speed to do what the vast majority of Church of England members want, which is to make 7. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): What steps sure that women can become bishops, as well as priests, the Church Commissioners are taking to reduce the at the earliest available date? level of lead theft from church buildings. [55127] Tony Baldry: My views on this matter are well recorded. Tony Baldry: Last year, churches in Manchester had As the right hon. Gentleman will know, this matter is more lead theft than in any other area of the UK, with a now out with the dioceses. I am sure that the Archdeacon significant number of insurance claims being made. of Southwark, who is a strong campaigner on this issue, Metal theft, particularly the theft of lead from church will keep him informed. The dioceses are reviewing the roofs, is the most serious problem facing the maintenance matter and will vote on it in the near future. If they vote of the historic legacy of church buildings, with Wakefield in the affirmative, the matter will go to the General cathedral being the most recent case. The Church recently Synod. This matter is being dealt with as speedily as is sent a report to the Home Office in which it makes possible. recommendations for the greater regulation of the scrap metal industry. Mr Speaker: I apologise to the Leader of the House and the shadow Leader of the House, but the House Mr Nuttall: What advice, if any, has the Church must hear from Mr Brian Binley. Buildings Council been able to give churches to advise them on how to help to deter thieves? Tony Baldry: The Church is giving all possible advice PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION to churches about effective deterrents, including what they should do regarding wireless roof alarms and other things. Frankly, though, it is a broader issue than The Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission was that. The Church Buildings Council is of the view that asked— the regulation of scrap yards is fundamental to reducing National Audit Office the level of metal theft. It is all too easy for roofs to be stripped of lead one night and the lead to be sold for 10. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): cash the next day. We want cash transactions for lead to What recent assessment the Public Accounts Commission be made illegal, a requirement for scrap yards receiving has made of the effects of the UK’s fiscal situation on lead or traders selling it to be licensed specially for that the work and budget of the National Audit Office. activity, a requirement to show documentary proof of [55130] 1355 Oral Answers12 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 1356

Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough): In response to the Audit Office generates about 11 times its cost in savings? UK’s fiscal situation, the National Audit Office’s strategy Was the commission therefore wise to create a reduction? for the three years from April 2011 set out plans to save Should the NAO not be given its usual allowance of 15% in nominal terms and 21% in real terms over that resources to allow it to save more money for the general period. In exploring the strategy in November, the public? commission considered the effect of the cost reductions on public spending and on the NAO’s work on the use of resources by public sector bodies. The commission Mr Leigh: Normally, I agree with my hon. Friend, concluded that the cost reduction proposals were sound, but the NAO cannot be exempt from the pressure on and it approved the NAO’s budgets for the three-year the budgets of all Departments. It is vital that the NAO period. leads by example. Under the guidance of the commission, it is doing as many reports as possible, more economically Mr Binley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that and more speedily, and is saving more money for the answer. However, does he recognise that the National taxpayer. 1357 12 MAY 2011 Business of the House 1358

Business of the House failed to support marriage, unfairly penalised middle-class parents, and done “almost nothing” to address the breakdown of families. 11.36 am What about the greenest government ever pledge? Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Will the Leader This week, a leaked letter revealed that the Business of the House give us the forthcoming business? Secretary is arguing for a lower carbon reduction target than that recommended by the Committee on Climate The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Change. May we have a statement on whether the Prime Young): The business for next week will be: Minister is going to accept or reject that target? MONDAY 16 MAY—Motion to approve the 15th report On Sunday, the Deputy Prime Minister said about 2010-2012 of the Standards and Privileges Committee his own Government’s NHS reforms: (HC 1023), followed by general debate on the middle east, north Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan. “I am not going to ask Liberal Democrat MPs…to proceed with legislation on something as precious and cherished as the TUESDAY 17 MAY—Motion to approve a Ways and NHS unless I personally am satisfied that what these changes do Means resolution relating to the Localism Bill, followed is an evolutionary change in the NHS and not a disruptive by remaining stages of the Localism Bill (Day 1). revolution.” WEDNESDAY 18 MAY—Remaining stages of the Localism So now we know that the Deputy Prime Minister, who Bill (Day 2). originally backed the Bill, actually thinks it is disruptive, THURSDAY 19 MAY—Motion relating to the BBC World when will we see the significant and substantial changes Service, followed by motion relating to rural broadband that the Prime Minister has repeatedly promised the and mobile coverage. The subjects for both debates House? were nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. Will the Leader of the House explain why we have The provisional business for the week commencing still not seen the higher education White Paper, when a 23 May will include: bit of it was announced on the “Today” programme on Tuesday rather than in Parliament? The Universities MONDAY 23 MAY—Opposition Day (16th allotted Minister got himself into a terrible mess with his idea of day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. well-off students paying for off-quota places at university. Subject to be announced. I suppose that with internships having been sold off at a TUESDAY 24 MAY—General debate on matters to be Tory fundraiser, one could see that as the logical next raised before the forthcoming Adjournment, as nominated step for social class mobility. Downing street, however, by the Backbench Business Committee. was not amused, and said so. It stated: Subject to the approval of the House, colleagues will “We are not quite sure what he was trying to say but it wasn’t wish to be aware that the House will meet at 11.30 am very helpful.” on this day. So while the Minister was forced to come to the House Colleagues will also wish to be reminded that subject to deny the rumour that he himself had started, the to the progress of business the House will rise for the House waits in vain for a coherent policy. Whitsun recess on Tuesday 24 May 2011 and return on Tuesday 7 June 2011. May we have a statement on free schools, now that nearly nine out of 10 applications have been turned down? A disappointed Downing street source—they Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the Leader of the have been very busy dumping on Ministers this week— House for that reply. May I begin by expressing our admitted that free schools had not been a success and deep sadness at the untimely loss of our dear friend and said: colleague, David Cairns? He was a lovely man, he was a principled man, he was a fine Minister, and he will be “I guess you’d give Michael a six out of 10”. missed by all of us greatly. It is not just Cabinet Ministers who have been done Will the Leader of the House tell us when we will over. What does the Leader of the House make of the have a statement on the shortfall in funding at the Downing street source who, talking about the Prime Ministry of Defence following the strategic defence and Minister’s dismal performances at Prime Minister’s security review? The Defence Secretary told the Defence questions, said: Committee that he would make a statement after the “It’s just not working. We’re not winning enough. The Flashman elections, and Members from all parts of the House are image is very damaging and we need to address it before it anxious to hear the outcome. When will the Armed becomes an accepted stereotype”? Forces Bill return to the House so that the Government can honour their commitment, as we have been urging As the House saw yesterday, it is far too late for that them to do, to enshrine the military covenant in law? already. May we have an urgent statement from the Home Finally, may we have a debate on the state of the Secretary to explain what she plans to do following the coalition? It has been a shambolic week for a dysfunctional humiliating defeat of her proposals for police commissioners Cabinet, with the Prime Minister and his deputy now in the other place yesterday? openly arguing with each other just 12 months after May we have a debate on the Prime Minister’s broken they took their coalition vows. Perhaps that was why, election pledge to make Britain the most family friendly smarting from electoral defeat, the Business Secretary country in Europe? This week, the Centre for Social finally gave vent to his feelings over the weekend when Justice, the think-tank founded by the Secretary of he described the Prime Minister’s party as State for Work and Pensions, said that the coalition has “ruthless, calculating and thoroughly tribal.” 1359 Business of the House12 MAY 2011 Business of the House 1360

[Hilary Benn] House painted a rather dismal picture of the Government, but one must ask this question: if we are doing so badly, We could have told him that, but has it really taken him why is he not doing better? a whole 12 months to notice it? If so, does not that Perhaps on the next Opposition day, we can hear degree of naivety prove that he is, after all, part of the from some of the right hon. Gentleman’s colleagues. greenest Government ever? The hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) said that Labour’s disastrous adventures in Scotland last Sir George Young: May I begin by endorsing what the week were the result of 30 years of “arrogance and right hon. Gentleman said about David Cairns? He was complacency” and that “Labour deserved to lose.” Last a decent, able man, and it is a tragedy that he has been night, in a spectacular own goal, the shadow Culture taken from his friends and from the House at such a Secretary was forced to rewrite a speech that admitted young age. that Labour was seen as a The Secretary of State for Defence will want to keep “party which overspent without delivering sufficient value for the House informed of the latest position on the Ministry money”, of Defence budget. On the Armed Forces Bill, as I before warning that on the current strategy, the Labour think I have said before, we want the House to have the party would lose the next general election. military covenant before Third Reading. Work is continuing All that confirms that while there are some lively on finalising the covenant and it will be placed before debates between the two parties in the coalition, they the House relatively soon, and shortly after that we will are nothing compared with the civil war in the Labour have Third Reading. party. As far as the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill is concerned, we are of course disappointed by the Several hon. Members rose— defeat in the House of Lords, because the election of police and crime commissioners is part of the coalition Mr Speaker: Order. As usual, a great many hon. and agreement and was part of the Bill that was passed from right hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye, but I this House to the other place. It is regrettable that the remind the House that there is another statement to other place has decided to take the steps that it has. The follow, and then two debates under the auspices of the Bill will, of course, return to this Chamber, and I hope Backbench Business Committee, so there is a premium that when it does we will have the support of the on economy, both in questions and indeed in answers. shadow Policing Minister, the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), who made it very clear in 2008 that Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): May we have a “only direct election, based on geographic constituencies, will debate on the practice in some councils of funding the deliver the strong connection to the public which is critical.” salaries of full-time union officials with taxpayers’ money, I hope that Labour Front Benchers will therefore join to consider whether Members of this House believe us in seeking to overturn the amendment made in the that that is an appropriate use of taxpayers’ funds? Lords. The shadow Leader of the House asked for a whole Sir George Young: I commend my hon. Friend on the series of debates on a range of subjects. I have just initiative that he is taking to use freedom of information announced that there will be an Opposition day on requests to find out more about the resources that are Monday week, so he can choose to debate any of the being allocated in that direction. At a time of financial subjects that he mentioned. restraint, I would expect all employers to ensure that such facilities are put to their proper use. However, at On the fourth carbon budget, the right hon. Gentleman the end of the day, it is up to the employer on the one should not believe everything he reads in the press. We hand, and the trade union on the other, to agree to an are committed to announcing before the end of next amount of time and then to see that that is not exceeded. month the target for 2023 to 2027, and I anticipate that we will make a statement quite soon and that the draft Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): The last statutory instrument will be laid before the House in time I had the honour to be in the Chamber to listen to good time for it to be debated. the late Member for Inverclyde, he made a passionate We debated the NHS on Monday in Opposition time, defence of the rights of gays and lesbians in Uganda. when a rather weak attack from them was easily seen off We hear that tomorrow, the Ugandan legislature might by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for discuss a further oppressive piece of legislation on Health. the rights of gays in Uganda. May we have an urgent The higher education White Paper was dealt with in statement from the Government on what they are doing an urgent question by my right hon. Friend the Minister to follow his words urging them to make representations for Universities and Science. It will be published before to the Ugandans about ceasing the hateful rhetoric that the summer recess. they deploy against gay people, and to ensure that we stand up for their human rights, as he would have done? The shadow Leader of the House then asked about the coalition. I note that yesterday, the Deputy Prime Sir George Young: I commend and agree with what Minister said: the hon. Lady says, and I pay tribute to the campaign “We will stand together, but not so closely that we stand in that David Cairns championed. I agree that what is each other’s shadow.” happening in Uganda is an important subject. It might It is manifestly obvious to anyone that the Deputy be appropriate for her to apply for a debate in Westminster Leader of the House and I could never stand in each Hall, so that a Foreign and Commonwealth Office other’s shadow. As ever, the shadow Leader of the Minister can indicate that the Government share her 1361 Business of the House12 MAY 2011 Business of the House 1362 concern, and outline the action that we might take Sir George Young: Speaking for myself—and, I am with the appropriate representatives of the Ugandan sure, for a large number of other hon. Members—I will Government. be actively engaged in my constituency over the Whitsun recess, which I certainly do not regard as a two-week Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): After holiday. Also, speaking from memory, I think that this years of failure to make the Barrow crossing at Downham year the House will be sitting for longer than the Market safe and wasting money on a proposed footbridge previous year. If we look overall throughout the year, it that nobody wants, may we have a debate on Network is certainly not the case that since the general election Rail’s accountability? we are sitting for fewer days than before.

Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right that Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): May Network Rail’s corporate governance structure is supremely we have a debate on power line technology devices that difficult to follow. We have a commitment to make it are used across the land to connect computers in homes? properly accountable to its customers, and at the moment The 2006 regulations that govern the use of such devices we are examining the structures and incentives of the set no maximum interference levels. However, as their industry to see how best to enable that. I hope that that usage is becoming more prevalent, organisations such helps her, but in the meantime, I can only suggest that as the Civil Aviation Authority are becoming concerned. she redoubles her correspondence with Network Rail to Can the Government address this issue? see whether there is an appropriate solution to the position at Downham Market. Sir George Young: I understand that my hon. Friend’s wish has been granted and that he has won an Adjournment Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): More evidence debate on the subject next Wednesday. has been reported this week of the growing crisis in the private care homes sector. Private care homes are desperately Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): seeking more funding from local authorities, but they Can the Leader of the House—if he is paying attention— have had their funding cut by central Government. May tell us when the Scotland Bill is likely to return for its we have a serious debate on the future of all aspects of remaining stages? When it comes back, will he also long-term care, including funding, growing privatisation, ensure enough time to debate and secure the extra which has caused a lot of the problem, and the risk to economic powers that the Scottish people voted for the elderly people in those care homes? with the overwhelming re-election of a Scottish National party majority Government last week? Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the funding problems for private care homes. He will know that we have asked Andrew Dilnot Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman will have to chair a commission that is shortly to report on the heard that I have not announced further debate on the long-term structure of funding for residential and nursing Scotland Bill between now and the Whitsun recess. I home care. I anticipate that once that report is in the anticipate that we will be addressing it thereafter. It is public domain, the House will want to debate it. The the coalition Government’s intention that there should hon. Gentleman may have heard on the radio this always be adequate time on Report to debate important morning that certain parts of the country have seen a issues. I hope to make enough time available for proper 4% increase in spending on adult services, and we put consideration of the Scotland Bill, including the issue an extra £2 billion into social care in the public expenditure that he has just touched on. announcement. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): More Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): On than 300,000 people have signed the petition to save the Monday, all Warwickshire MPs met the Coventry and Leeds children’s heart unit, yet right hon. and hon. Warwickshire local enterprise partnership. I was extremely Members have not had the chance to debate the review impressed with the work that the LEP is doing to of services that started under the previous Government. engage with local businesses to promote growth and job Will the Government please make time available in the creation. Will the Leader of the House provide Government timetable for all Members to express their views on this time for a debate on the work of local enterprise important issue? partnerships and how we can best support them? Sir George Young: The next opportunity, at Health Sir George Young: I was pleased to hear of the questions, will be on 7 June—the issue was also raised at initiative of the MPs for Coventry and Warwickshire. I business questions last week by my hon. Friend the draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the written ministerial Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), albeit in a statement issued today on local enterprise partnerships—he slightly different context. I do not know whether the may have already seen it—that announces a new £5 million hon. Gentleman, together with others who feel strongly start-up fund for LEPs. That would be a valuable topic on the matter, have approached the Backbench Business for the House to discuss in Westminster Hall. Committee to see whether it would allocate time for a debate on this important subject, which I know has Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Although generated a lot of concern in many parts of England. we always have our constituency duties during recesses, why on earth are we breaking up for two weeks? This Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Sense, science House did not meet for three weeks over Easter. How and experience prove that the killing of badgers does many places up and down the country break up for two not reduce bovine TB. When can we debate the weeks for what is described as Whitsun? Government’s indifference to animal suffering and their 1363 Business of the House12 MAY 2011 Business of the House 1364

[Paul Flynn] Sir George Young: The Government are committed to reducing the amount of carbon emitted by buildings, determination to prostrate themselves before their trigger- and energy performance certificates are an important happy farming friends, so that they can walk all over part of that initiative. Holiday lets are exempt if they them in a mass, futile slaughter of these beautiful, are let for more than four months a year. I understand defenceless creatures? the point that my hon. Friend makes, but landlords will benefit from reduced energy costs if they bring their Sir George Young: I represent a rural constituency properties up to standard, so I hope that they will see where people’s view of badgers is slightly different from the other side of the coin. the one that the hon. Gentleman enunciated. Also, we have just had Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Despite my questions, at which I understand the issue of badgers writing to the Minister of State, Department of Health, was raised. the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), tabling questions and having an Adjournment debate, Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): Today is national nurses he has refused to publish the document outlining the day. I am particularly pleased to support the campaign proposals to privatise my local trust. May we have a as my mother gave over 40 years’ service to the NHS as debate on ministerial accountability so that we can raise a children’s nurse. Will my right hon. Friend consider these important matters? making parliamentary time available for a debate on the welcome recent increase in the numbers of nurses, health Sir George Young: There is no way that a hospital can visitors and midwives in the NHS, along with the valuable be privatised. That simply cannot happen. As the hon. role that nursing staff play in the NHS in my local Gentleman knows, he had a debate in Westminster Hall community hospital at Ilkeston and, of course, across on this issue to which my right hon. Friend the Health the country? Minister responded. I understand that correspondence is now taking place between the two of them. At the Sir George Young: I commend my hon. Friend—and heart of the issue is how the hon. Gentleman’s hospital her mother—for her commitment to the national health can meet the standards necessary to become a foundation service. Today is indeed international nurses day, which trust and the need to explore the various options, including is held on the anniversary of Florence Nightingale’s merger with another trust. I will draw his remarks to birthday. My hon. Friend reminds the House that there the attention of my right hon. Friend and he will write are now 200 more nurses, midwives and health visitors to him. working in the NHS since the general election. Opposition Members may say that they trained them, but they also Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Will the Leader have to be paid for. We have provided extra resources for of the House ask whether we can have an oral statement the NHS that Labour would not have provided. Today on the recent United Nations report on the 40,000 civilian is an opportunity to raise the profile of nurses and deaths caused by the Sri Lankan Government in the encourage more people to think of nursing as a career, recent conflict? as well as to pay tribute to the compassion, commitment and leadership that nurses show day in, day out. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend, who is chairman Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): of the all-party group on Sri Lanka and to whose work Yesterday we launched the United Nations decade for I pay tribute, reminds the House of the atrocities on reducing road injuries and fatalities. We are also approaching both sides in the recent civil war in Sri Lanka and the the 30th anniversary of our successful campaign to publication of the UN report. It would be appropriate introduce mandatory seatbelt legislation. The most likely for him to apply for an Adjournment debate—perhaps way worldwide for young people to die is on the road in in Westminster Hall—to look at the implications of a car crash. When can we have a debate that highlights that report and identify any action that it would be this important subject? appropriate for Her Majesty’s Government to take.

Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman may have Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Yesterday Members seen the written ministerial statement yesterday, which debated the Education Bill. However, the debate was was aimed at making better use of the police’s resources incomplete because the admissions code had still not and focusing on really dangerous driving, as opposed to been provided, despite the assurances given by the less dangerous driving. He rightly reminds the House Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. that, I think, 2,222 people were killed on our roads last Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb) year. I hope that he will apply to the Backbench Business that it would be available in time for Third Reading. Committee for a debate on road safety so that we can May we have a statement to assure the House that in consider these issues at greater length. future we will not have debates when large and important parts of background information that are relevant to Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Will the Leader the Bill have not been provided? May we also have a of the House grant us a debate on the fact that from statement about when we will see the admissions code, 30 June, properties used as holiday lets will require which is so important to Members in debating our energy performance certificates under new guidance education policy? issued by the Department for Communities and Local Government? The change will increase the cost of regulation Sir George Young: I will refer the hon. Gentleman’s for thousands of small businesses across the UK remarks to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State —something that I would have thought Ministers would and get an answer to his question on when the admissions have opposed. code will be published. I also say in passing that I think 1365 Business of the House12 MAY 2011 Business of the House 1366 we provided adequate time for discussion of the Education his age no less than three times. As the minimum age for Bill, and I note that, in Committee, the Opposition standing for election was reduced to 18 to encourage spokesman said: more young people to get involved in politics, does the “I…thank the Government and Opposition Whips for the Leader of the House agree that his coalition partners orderly way they have organised our business.”––[Official Report, should not attack younger people for wanting to serve Education Public Bill Committee, 5 April 2011; c. 993.] their community? May we have a debate on how we The Government do not in any way want to obstruct might further encourage young people to take part in discussion of that Bill. our democracy?

Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): Sir George Young: I am very much in favour of young May we have a debate on the recent recovery of salmon people standing for local government. The Deputy Leader stock in Scottish rivers, so that we can debate the of the House tells me that a 19-year-old in his constituency importance of the subsidy to Scotland and the effect was recently successful, as was a 21-year-old in my own that its withdrawal would have on those stocks? constituency. The more young people who stand for local authorities and, indeed, for this place, the better. Sir George Young: The reason that I pause is that I am not sure whether responsibility for salmon is a Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): For nearly devolved matter—[Interruption.] It is devolved; I see a four years, I worked with the NHS and saw at close nod from the Opposition Benches. Sadly, therefore, quarters the huge bureaucracy in the connecting for I cannot organise a debate on salmon in Scotland, but health programme, in the national programme for my hon. Friend has drawn attention to a more generic information technology, in strategic health authorities point about resources flowing from Westminster to the and in primary care trusts. May we have a debate on the north. Perhaps there will be an opportunity to debate progress that has been made to reduce Labour’s bureaucratic that when the Scotland Bill returns. legacy and to increase the numbers of clinicians, which is what our constituents really want? Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): May we have a debate on the coalition agreement? I think that the country has Sir George Young: My hon. Friend reminds me that a right to know exactly what state that document is now the number of doctors has increased by 2,478— in. The Health and Social Care Bill is now at a pausing, [Interruption.] They may have been trained, but they listening and reflecting stage, the Police Reform and had to be paid for by somebody. At the same time, more Social Responsibility Bill was severely reformed by the than 3,500 full-time equivalent managers have been cut. Lords last night and, on Tuesday, we had the debacle That is in stark contrast with what happened under of the statement on off-quota higher education places. Labour, when the number of managers increased six If the coalition document were brought to the Floor of times as fast as the number of nurses. the House, both Government parties could table amendments to it and we could debate in public exactly Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): what is happening to the agreement and understand it May I ask the Leader of the House for a debate on the in greater detail. assistance that we are able to give to constituents who are detained abroad? One of my constituents, Mr Joseph Sir George Young: On the various issues, we had a Nunoo-Mensah, a respected surgeon at King’s college debate on the national health service on Monday, and I hospital, is currently being detained in Dubai, having indicated a few moments ago that we would be seeking been charged with making a hand gesture at another to reverse the decision of the House of Lords on the motorist. I understand that Mr Nunoo-Mensah, who Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. The coalition strongly denies the charge, cannot leave the country is in good shape; we are getting on with strong, decisive, until after his hearing, which could be weeks or even united government, which is what this country needs. months away. Meanwhile, he has patients here in the UK who need his expertise. I would be grateful if the Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Leader of the House would be gracious enough to raise To mark the anniversary of the general election and the this matter with his colleagues in the Foreign Office, formation of this Government, may we have an urgent who I would prevail upon to do all they can to ensure debate on the achievements of the past 12 months and that my constituent’s hearing is held as promptly as the many promises on which we have already delivered? possible.

Sir George Young: It might be expecting too much for Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s the Opposition to allocate the next Opposition day for a concern about his constituent. If he has not already whole-day debate on the successes of the coalition done so, I will contact the Foreign and Commonwealth Government. We have cut the deficit, we have capped Office to see what consular assistance can be made immigration and we have frozen the council tax, etc., available to this UK citizen in the distressing circumstances etc. The Localism Bill will be debated next week, and its in which he finds himself. Report stage might provide an opportunity to talk about our successes in that field. Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): For the past two weeks, uncontrolled moorland fires have been Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): burning in my constituency of Belmont and Darwen. During the local election campaign, an 18-year-old Will the Leader of the House agree to a debate on candidate in my constituency was subjected to relentless whether the ban on controlled moorland burning is attacks about his age by his Liberal Democrat opponent. increasing the prevalence of uncontrolled fires? Specifically One letter sent to residents made negative references to on the fires burning in my constituency, will he join me 1367 Business of the House12 MAY 2011 Business of the House 1368

[Jake Berry] Sir George Young: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has indicated that he would welcome such a in praising the courage of the firemen from Lancashire debate. We have made provision for constant cash per and Manchester who have been fighting them day and pupil to be topped up by the pupil premium, so, against night? the background of the difficult decisions that the Government have had to take, education has had a Sir George Young: I endorse entirely what my hon. good deal. Friend has just said about the emergency services combating the serious fires in his constituency, and indeed in Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): May we please others. I cannot promise him a debate in Government have a debate on the Ministry of Justice’s 2011 compendium time, but in the light of what has just happened, this of reoffending statistics and analysis, so that the fact strikes me as an appropriate subject for debate in that prison works can be highlighted? The report contains Westminster Hall or for an Adjournment debate in this proof that those who serve longer sentences are less Chamber. likely to reoffend than those who serve shorter ones.

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Two weeks Sir George Young: I can tell my hon. Friend that we ago, I asked the Leader of the House whether we could will shortly be introducing a legal services and sentencing have an urgent statement on the Government’s intention Bill, at which point it will be possible to debate this to scrap the Equality Act 2010. In the recent meeting of matter at greater length, as well as looking at the the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, the relative effectiveness of shorter sentences, about which Business Secretary said that that was not the Government’s some criticism has been made. intention, and that a correction would be placed on the Red Tape Challenge website, which is suggesting that Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): There is support on the Act will be scrapped. Given that no such correction both sides of the House for the proposed £600 million has been placed on the website, may we have an urgent Mersey Gateway bridge. It was given planning permission statement on the Government’s intention in relation to last year, and we were told that a decision on funding the Equality Act? would be made by the end of last year. That decision has still not been made, because of issues relating to the Sir George Young: I understand that this issue could funding package. Would it be possible for the Leader of be raised with the Home Secretary at the next Home the House to arrange for a statement from either the Office questions. In the meantime, I will see whether she Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Transport Secretary can write to the hon. Gentleman to address the issue to explain the delay? The longer this goes on, the more that he has just raised. the cost of the bridge rises.

Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): On Monday, Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s the Home Secretary set out proposals to cut police concern about the delay in constructing the bridge. I bureaucracy that would save up to 2.5 million hours of will share the concerns he has just expressed with my police time, the equivalent of 1,200 officers. May we right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport have a debate on those proposals, to discuss what else and ask him to write to the hon. Gentleman indicating a the Government could do to ensure that, despite the time scale for the construction of this bridge. difficult decisions on public spending, our constituents do not see a decline in visible policing? Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Will the Leader of the House assure me that there will be enough time Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend within the remaining stages of the Localism Bill to for reminding the House of the speech that my right discuss the empowerment of local authorities further to hon. Friend the Home Secretary gave on Monday about protect our green belt land from inappropriate development, the steps we are taking to decrease bureaucracy in the which affects my constituency of York Outer? police force. I understand that the measures will release the equivalent of some 1,200 police officers, and she Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend indicated that more was to come. She also made it clear for that. We will be debating the Localism Bill next that week. Any proposal for development in the green belt is subject to stringent tests, and planning policy guidance “the days of the bureaucrats controlling and managing the police note 2 explains the key policy: a presumption against from Whitehall are over”, inappropriate development on green belt land. We are and I am sure that my hon. Friend will welcome that. committed to maintaining the green belt, and it says so in the coalition agreement. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): The Deputy Prime Minister keeps reminding the House Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): May we have that the flagship pupil premium policy of the Lib Dems a debate on car manufacturing in the UK? This year, is delivering for pupils in the poorer areas of the country, Ford is celebrating its centenary of manufacturing in but my understanding from schools in my constituency the UK and more than 30 years in my constituency, is that they are gaining no net benefit from the measure. where the engine plant produces more than 1 million May we have a debate on the effect of the pupil premium engines a year. It is also producing the new eco-engine, on those poorer areas? and more than one third of all cars that are Ford- manufactured in the UK have an engine that is produced The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): in the UK—in either Bridgend or Dagenham. We have That is a very good idea. an increased number of engineers, increased manufacturing 1369 Business of the House12 MAY 2011 Business of the House 1370 and an increased number of apprenticeships to celebrate are being made for informal meetings between the in Bridgend. May we have a debate so that this can be Committee and coastguards outside this House. So I recognised, at a time when we are negative about am not sure that it is exactly correct to say that members manufacturing in this country? of the Select Committee have been denied access to coastguards. My understanding is that informal meetings Sir George Young: Owing to the eloquence of the are being arranged. hon. Lady we have almost had that debate. She will be pleased to hear that manufacturing output increased by Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Martin some 5% in the first quarter of the year. I entirely Penny, the principal of Stratford-upon-Avon college, endorse every word that she said; manufacturing is and his team are passionate about giving young people important to this country’s future, and I hope that the the tools to gain and maintain jobs in the private sector steps we have taken in the Budget will encourage inward through apprenticeships. My right hon. Friend may investment and the production of yet more eco-friendly have heard the way in which the Secretary of State for engines at the plant in Bridgend. Work and Pensions set out an agenda for tackling youth unemployment this morning. May we have a debate Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Given the interest in about this serious and important issue? the subject of bank lending to small and medium-sized enterprises and the forthcoming Independent Commission Sir George Young: I would welcome a debate on the on Banking report, may we have a debate on that issue? important issue of youth unemployment, where we inherited a substantial figure—I believe it was 1.4 million. My hon. Friend may have heard today’s announcement Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will know that of £60 million to get more vulnerable young people into under Project Merlin a specific commitment was given work, and he will know that we are committed to to increase lending to SMEs—I believe the figure was 250,000 more apprenticeships over the next four years some £90 billion—and we are very anxious that that and radical reforms to transform vocational training. should be maintained. I am sure that when we have the I would welcome such a debate, but I am afraid that I ICB’s final report there will be an opportunity to discuss cannot promise the time for it immediately. this matter at greater length. It is important that SMEs have continued access to bank lending so that they can Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Parents in my invest in the future. constituency have come together to work to set up a free school in Sandymoor. This exciting development will Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ bring a much-needed boost to local school choice and it Co-op): May we have an urgent Government statement has my full support. May we have a debate on the on the disgraceful situation in which coastguards in importance of providing top-quality advice and support Stornoway and Cornwall are being barred from giving to aspiring free school founders, so that we can help to evidence to the Select Committee on Transport next make their efforts just that little bit easier? week about the impact of the Government’s proposals on coastguards? If the people who know about coastguard Sir George Young: I am delighted to hear that parents services are being barred from giving evidence to the in my hon. Friend’s constituency are planning to set up Committee, surely that reduces any suggestion of confidence a free school and I welcome the support that he is giving in this policy. them. It is important that those interested in setting up free schools have access to advice and support, which is Sir George Young: My understanding is that the why the Department for Education has funded the New Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member Schools Network, an independent charitable organisation, for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) is coming to give to offer support to individuals and groups such as those evidence to the Transport Committee and that arrangements he mentioned. 1371 12 MAY 2011 Vocational Education 1372

Vocational Education are taking qualifications that have little or no value. That is because: the system is overly complex; after years of micro-management and mounting bureaucratic 12.14 pm costs, it is also hugely expensive; and there are counter- The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): productive and perverse incentives that steer students With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to a make a into inferior courses. In short, the damaging system of statement on the next stage of this coalition Government’s vocational education that we inherited is failing young radical reform programme to make opportunity more people and must be changed now before the prospects equal. I should like to outline our response to Professor of generations of young people are further blighted. Alison Wolf’s groundbreaking report on vocational Securing our country’s future relies upon us developing education. In her work, Professor Wolf stresses the our own world-class education system, from which young importance of fundamental reform across the board to people graduate with not only impeccable qualifications improve state education, and I would first like to update and deep subject knowledge, but the real practical and the House on our progress towards that goal. technical skills they need to succeed. This Government It is a year to the day since the new Department for support high-quality vocational education not just for Education was created to raise standards for all children its utility; vocational education is valuable in its own and narrow the gap between rich and poor. In that year: right. It is part of the broad and balanced curriculum we have introduced a pupil premium—£2.5 billion of that every pupil should be able to enjoy. It allows young additional spending on the poorest pupils; we have people to develop their own special craft skills, to extended the free provision of nursery education for all experience the satisfaction of technical accomplishment, three and four-year-olds and introduced free nursery and to expand what they know, understand and can do. education for all disadvantaged two-year-olds; we have As my hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, launched the most comprehensive review ever of care Skills and Lifelong Learning has repeatedly and eloquently for children with special needs; we have overhauled argued, we need to elevate the practical and treat vocational child protection rules to ensure that social workers are education not, as it has been seen in the past, as an better able to help the most vulnerable children; we have inferior route for the less able, but as an aspirational allowed all schools to use the high-quality exams which path for those with specific aptitudes. That is why we the last Government restricted to the private sector; we are taking immediate steps to rebuild the currency of are ensuring that spelling, punctuation and grammar vocational qualifications. are properly recognised in exams; we have recruited As recommended by Professor Wolf, we have reinstated Simon Schama and Niall Ferguson to restore proper several qualifications which lead to professional success, narrative history teaching; and we are doubling the for example, certificates in electrical engineering and number of great graduates becoming teachers through plumbing, which we know are highly valued by schools Teach First and doubling the number of great heads and colleges, and are admired by employers. Because we becoming national leaders of education. know that the current set of qualifications does not We have also created more than 400 new academies, meet all needs, we will work with awarding bodies and tripling the number we inherited and creating more others to ensure that more high-quality courses are academies in 12 months than the last Government did available for students of all levels. in 12 years. I can confirm to the House today that we Because we know that the current league table system have now received more than 1,000 applications from does not reward the progress made by students of all schools wishing to become academies and more than abilities, we will reform league tables to recognise the 300 applications to set up free schools, many from great achievements of the lowest and highest-achieving. And teachers such as the inspirational head teacher, Patricia because we know that not all qualifications are equal, Sowter. and the former Downing street aide, Peter we will further reform the league tables to guarantee Hyman. that vocational qualifications are given a proper weighting. Those achievements have been made possible by the Their value will no longer be inflated in a way that united strength of two parties with a shared commitment encourages students to pursue inappropriate courses, or to social mobility working together, and I wish to take overlooked in a way that unbalances achievement. this opportunity to underline my thanks, for the part Because we know the current funding system creates they have played in pushing this programme forward—to perverse incentives, we will reform it. At the moment, the Deputy Prime Minister, to my right hon. Friend the schools and colleges are incentivised to offer lower-grade Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon qualifications that are easier to pass because they get Hughes), to the Minister of State, Department for paid on those results. That must end. The dumbing-down Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central of the past has got to stop if the next generation are to (Sarah Teather), who has responsibility for children and succeed. Students should choose the qualifications they families, and to my right hon. Friend the Member for need to succeed, not those that bureaucracies deem Yeovil (Mr Laws). It is my personal hope that we will appropriate. all be able once more to make use of his talents in the However, while choice in the qualifications market is country’s service before too long. crucial, there are certain inescapable facts in the labour We will be building on the momentum generated by market that no student can ignore. Employers rightly our reform programme by today accepting all the insist that students be properly literate and numerate. recommendations in Professor Wolf’s report on vocational They remind us that there are no more important education. She found that although there are many vocational subjects than English and maths. As Professor great vocational education courses and institutions providing Wolf’s report lays bare, huge numbers of students leave excellent vocational education that are heavily education without proper qualifications in those areas, oversubscribed, hundreds of thousands of young people making it increasingly hard for them to secure jobs. 1373 Vocational Education12 MAY 2011 Vocational Education 1374

This Government will put an end to that by ensuring We devote a great deal of time to higher education, that all 16 to 18-year-olds who were unable to secure at but much less to improving opportunities for young leastaCinEnglish and maths at GCSE will continue to people who do not plan to go to university. I have long study those subjects through to age 19. advocated redressing that balance and it is now an The best performing education systems not only offer urgent imperative in view of the Government’s changes a strong grounding in the basics such as English and to higher education. maths, but ensure a good general education that cements As I said when the report was published, I find much the ability to reason, to assess evidence, to absorb to welcome in Professor Wolf’s vision for higher-quality knowledge and to adapt to new opportunities. In this vocational education. I agree with some aspects of what fast-changing world, few 16-year-olds know exactly what the Secretary of State has said today, particularly the they will be doing at the age of 21, let alone when they commitment to ensuring that every young person reaches are 25, 35 or 45, so we need to ensure that every a decent level of proficiency in English and maths 18-year-old has followed a broad programme of study before they leave school and that all programmes of and has a core academic knowledge that provides a study lead to progression. I also welcome efforts to secure foundation from which to progress. That is why simplify the system and qualifications in vocational Professor Wolf backs our English baccalaureate as a education to make it easier for young people to navigate springboard to future success in a rapidly changing their way through. world and stresses that it gives students the maximum Professor Wolf recommends the adoption of multiple freedom to choose between academic and vocational measures of school performance, echoing the moves we pathways throughout their life. made in government towards a balanced school report We know that the most prestigious vocational pathways card approach. The Secretary of State has accepted that require a rounded school education as preparation. today, in speaking of his promise to reform league Professor Wolf’s report underlines that some of the best tables to create new performance management measures vocational education in the world exists in our private in addition to the English baccalaureate. I will give sector apprenticeship programmes. The best are massively careful consideration to the measures he brings forward, oversubscribed. BT typically has 15,000 applicants for but I gently warn him that his plans to measure students 100 places each year. Rolls-Royce has 10 applicants for at the top and the bottom already sound complex. Is he every place and Network Rail is similarly oversubscribed. not in danger of recreating in another form a complex There is far greater competition for some of these target regime of the type of which he complained so courses than there is for places at Oxford or Cambridge. frequently when he was in opposition? Will not teachers’ hearts sink when they hear that there are to be more We want to ensure that all employers get the support targets? Will they not question whether he is delivering they need to offer high quality apprenticeships. The on the autonomy to get on and teach that he promised Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong them? Will he give us an assurance that he will consult Learning is working to reduce the bureaucracy that teachers before dropping any new performance management employers face and to ensure that every penny spent by measure on them, as he did with the English baccalaureate? Government and employers on apprenticeships can be used to the very best effect, including by studying best Even with a range of measures in force, Professor practice with similar schemes around the world. Wolf’s report rightly warns of the consequences if a single performance measure becomes dominant. Let me Professor Wolf emphasised the need for clear routes quote from her report, which said that there for progression, but also for greater flexibility within “remains a serious risk that schools will simply ignore their less them. She was right to do so. We will consider what academically successful pupils. This was a risk with the old five further programmes of study are needed, alongside the GCSEs measure; a risk with the English baccalaureate; and will general educational component, to give 16 to 18-year-olds be a risk with a measure based on selected qualifications. It needs the broad education they need. to be pre-empted.” For more than a century, there have been numerous, Rather than pre-empt this risk, however, did not the failed attempts to reform vocational education. It is Secretary of State pre-empt the Wolf report by presenting now more important than ever that we finally bring an his English baccalaureate as the “gold standard” for end to the two-tier education system that has scarred schools? our country for too long. Professor Wolf’s report, together Schools are clearly seeing it that way. Why otherwise with wider reforms like the fantastic university technical are we seeing music, RE and arts teachers being made colleges being pioneered by Lord Baker, sets out a clear redundant right here, right now? Why otherwise are we map of what we need to do. I am delighted that Professor seeing students under pressure from schools to switch Wolf has agreed to continue to provide regular and subjects halfway through their courses or to take courses ongoing advice to Government as we implement her that they do not really want to do, diminishing their recommendations. I cannot think of anyone better qualified choice? This is becoming the dominant headline measure to help us offer young people the genuine and high-quality against which all schools and students are judged. The technical education they have been too long denied. I Secretary of State needs more convincing answers on commend this statement to the House. how he plans to stop that happening. More broadly, has not this highly prescriptive league Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): I thank the Secretary table measure, and its arbitrary subject selection, already of State for his statement. I am pleased that he has damaged the deliverability of Professor Wolf’s vision by managed to join us today. We touched on many similar relegating vocational learning to second-division status themes yesterday in an enjoyable and lively discussion. I in the public mind and in the minds of schools? The hope that, in preparing his statement today, he has had Secretary of State mentioned a two-tier system, but is time to catch up on it. that not precisely what this Government are creating—an 1375 Vocational Education12 MAY 2011 Vocational Education 1376

[Andy Burnham] young people. Unless they change course quickly—on curriculum reform, the careers service, EMA and university elitist, two-tier system in which parents have fewer fees—the Government’s legacy will be a lost generation rights on admissions, making it more difficult for them of young people. to get their children into good schools? The parent voice is diminished. Creative and practical subjects are Michael Gove: I thank the right hon. Member for crucial to the quality vocational education that Professor Leigh (Andy Burnham) for his response, and welcome Wolf advocates, but they are already a devalued currency him back to the Dispatch Box, on day release from his in our schools because of the Secretary of State’s actions. other job as Labour’s election co-ordinator. May I say Where is the creativity in his English baccalaureate? how much we on the Government Benches are enjoying Student choice has been affected by the subject choice the progress he is making in that job? From Dartford in the bac. and Dover to Aberconwy and Pembrokeshire, from I say again to the Secretary of State that it is time he North Lincolnshire to Southampton, Conservative thought again about the English baccalaureate and councillors who won last Thursday are delighted with allowed more breadth, flexibility and choice so that it the progress he is making, and so are we. The longer he caters for the talents of all students? A school system stays in that role, the happier all of us will be. that works for everyone cannot be designed around the requirements of the Russell group. With 103 Members May I also welcome the fact that, when the right hon. calling for RE at the very least to be added to the Gentleman returned to his part-time role as shadow baccalaureate, is it not now time for another of the Education Secretary, he found time to endorse many of Secretary of State’s famous U-turns? our recommendations? I welcome the support he has given to our aims of improving numeracy and literacy The deliverability of Professor Wolf’s vision is also and ensuring that students over the age of 16 who have affected by some of the Secretary of State’s actions in not secured GCSE passes in English and maths have an other areas. Professor Wolf rightly stresses the importance opportunity to acquire appropriate qualifications in of a quality careers service to inform young people those subjects. about their options—surely even more important in world where young people are struggling to make their The right hon. Gentleman asked a good question way. Yet as we speak, the careers service in England about multiple measures and the importance of ensuring is simply melting away. We welcome the vision of an that we do not create an accountability system that is all-age careers service, but we ask again today: where is too complex, but as he himself acknowledged and as the long-promised transition plan to deliver it? That is has been pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member yet another example of the Secretary of State’s trademark for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart), the Chairman incompetence. of the Select Committee, there must be a golden mean between having so many targets that teachers are pulled Given that careers advisers are being made redundant in different directions, and having only one target that now, how will the Secretary of State secure the quality distorts the performance of all schools. I believe that of service that Professor Wolf demands? Yesterday, we the balanced basket of accountability targets that we sought to amend his Bill to give young people a guarantee are introducing reflects what teachers believe—namely, of face-to-face guidance in our schools. At a time when that all students of all abilities need to have their youth unemployment is at a record high and access to achievements recognised, that the autonomy should be further and higher education is becoming more difficult, over how schools teach and how the school day is is not the web and telephony-based service proposed organised, and that in return for greater autonomy by the Government completely inadequate to the scale there should be sharper accountability. of the task? Talking of sharper accountability, the right hon. The Government mouth platitudes about social mobility, Gentleman referred to the English baccalaureate. He as the Secretary of State did today, but they are seemed to suggest—or, at least, seemed to want to lead systematically kicking away the ladders of support that the House to believe—that Professor Wolf was unhappy help young people to get on in life. More young people with it. On Saturday 12 March Professor Wolf wrote in in further education colleges on vocational courses are The Guardian: receiving education maintenance allowance than those in school sixth-form colleges, and they need that money “Andy Burnham… is quoted as saying” to buy equipment for their courses. Will not the scrapping that she had said there was of the EMA hit those young people disproportionately “a ‘serious risk’ that the English bac will lead to schools ‘simply hard, and, again, make Professor Wolf’s vision hard to ignoring’ less academically able students. This misrepresents what deliver? Colleges and students are four months away I said.” from the start of the academic year, and are still none the wiser about what they will receive under the Secretary She also wrote: of State’s replacement scheme. Not for the first time, “For the record, may I also note that the English bac subjects he has taken a successful policy and turned it into a would normally absorb less than 80% of a teaching week. Both it shambles. Is it not time to listen to no less an organisation and many other ‘academic’ clusters are therefore perfectly compatible than the OECD, and reinstate the EMA scheme? Without with my recommendations for curriculum balance for 14 to 16-year-olds.” it, how will the Secretary of State’s commitment to raising the school leaving age become a reality? Professor Wolf deserves better than to be traduced in Professor Wolf’s report raises issues that go to the that way by the right hon. Gentleman. heart of the need to secure the prosperity of our country The right hon. Gentleman also referred to careers and a decent future for our young people, but by their advice. Let me politely point out to him that the person actions the Government are taking hope away from our appointed to lead on social mobility for the previous 1377 Vocational Education12 MAY 2011 Vocational Education 1378

Government, Alan Milburn, said that we should move Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): away from the failed connection system and adopt a Professor Wolf might not have thought that the English new approach, giving baccalaureate on its own could distort and harm outcomes “Schools and colleges… direct responsibility for providing for the poorest in our schools, but I have to say that the information, advice and guidance”. Chairman of the Select Committee feels that it could. Moreover, Professor Alison Wolf pointed out in evidence However, I welcome what the Secretary of State has to the Select Committee that the “problem with careers said today about building a balanced score card. Can guidance” had been the model that the right hon. we work to create a consensus across the House that Gentleman prefers: a model that was stuck in the past, what we need is an assessment and accountability with “one poor teacher” being expected to know about framework that gives equal weight to the progress of everything. That, she said, had been supplanted by a every child? We do not want too complicated a set of more modern measure enabling skilled careers advisers targets, but we need a system that works, allowing and “proper, online, updated information” to provide schools to get on with it and deliver for everyone. students with the right answers. I am afraid that, not for the first time, the right hon. Michael Gove: That is a very good point. It is rather a Gentleman has been found out in his old Labour ways. shame that the view of some Labour Members—which He has been in office for 200 days. During that time he is not shared by my hon. Friend—is that working-class said that our academies programme would be divisive, children cannot achieve academic excellence. [Interruption.] but more than 1,000 great teachers have embraced it. I am afraid that that is the view of Opposition Front He said that free schools would generate poverty and Benchers. Labour Members therefore feel that this is dislocation, but the best and brightest in Labour are somehow an unfair and elitist measure, but I think that now embracing their radical appeal. Today he has said it is an aspirational measure. My hon. Friend is absolutely that the coalition Government have got it wrong on right: we need to ensure that all the abilities of all vocational education. Given his record, I am delighted children are recognised, whatever their background. to find the right hon. Gentleman sitting opposite me Labour Members need to return to the aspirational today. educational model that we saw under Lord Adonis, the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) and the Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I former right hon. Member for Sedgefield, which was congratulate my right hon. Friend on his statement. I sadly abandoned three years ago. am particularly pleased about the apprenticeships. The fact that young people in my constituency are now able Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I welcome Professor to apply directly to Rolls-Royce and Toyota for Wolf’s report, which has also been welcomed by the apprenticeships is a major step forward. Association of Colleges. I note two points in particular: the suggestion that maths and English education should Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. be continued for youngsters over the age of 16 who are Having had an opportunity to visit Rolls-Royce just on vocational courses and who did not achieve grade C over a month ago, I can confirm that the apprenticeships at GCSE, and the suggestion that vocational studies in it offers are highly sought after, and that students from schools should be limited to 20% of the curriculum, all over Derbyshire and the east and west midlands with 80% devoted to traditional subjects. Will the Secretary recognise that it is precisely that kind of high-quality of State make those statutory requirements, or will they private sector apprenticeship that we should facilitate. have only advisory status?

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Like many others, I gave evidence to the Wolf inquiry. I Michael Gove: On the continuation of the study of approve of much of the report and consider it to be a maths and English after the age of 16, we will, in the breath of fresh air, but I remind the Secretary of State context of raising the participation age, explore legislative that he made his statement on a day on which we heard and other options to ensure that all children have the that a million young people are unemployed. We know opportunity to follow those paths,. On the related question that only 6% of kids aged between 16 and 18 obtain of the 80:20 split, Professor Wolf says that to ensure the apprenticeships, and only 36% go on to higher education. maximum chance of progressing along academic and Given the tremendous challenge posed by the participation vocational pathways, there should be an academic core rate moving to 17 and then 18, may we have Wolf up to the age of 16. She also argues that it is a good mark 2, 3 and 4? thing for all students to experience some practical learning. That is not prescriptive; it is a guide, and one of the points she makes is that university technical colleges, Michael Gove: As ever, the hon. Gentleman shows which have a longer school day and school week, can why he was seen as such a distinguished Chairman of have a full academic core as well as a significant additional the Select Committee. He is right to point out that the layer of practical learning on top. record of the last 13 years is not nearly as bright or as promising as Opposition Front Benchers would have us believe, and to suggest that we need more work from Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): Before coming to the Professor Wolf and others to ensure that our vocational Chamber today, I addressed a business breakfast on the and academic education systems keep in touch with the edge of my right hon. Friend’s constituency and mine. 21st century. That is why I am so delighted that Professor Is he as concerned as I am about the finding in the CBI Wolf will remain an adviser to the Government to survey published this week that 40% of firms are not ensure the implementation of the report and, indeed, satisfied with the basic literacy of school and college the succeeding measures that we hope to take. leavers and that more than a third are not satisfied with 1379 Vocational Education12 MAY 2011 Vocational Education 1380

[Jonathan Lord] system, which has been extremely successful in delivering these kinds of reforms to very hard-to-reach young basic levels of numeracy? Does he believe that the people? measures he has announced today will help to reverse that sad state of affairs? Michael Gove: My hon. Friend has campaigned for a better deal for poorer students ever since he first came Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his to this House, and I agree that we must look at international question. He speaks very effectively for the businessmen models of good practice. The university technical colleges of Surrey, who are doing so much to provide opportunities that this Government are committed to introducing for young people, and I have to say that he is absolutely provide a new model that caters for students of different right: one of the major complaints from employers is aptitudes, and I believe we can learn a lot from some of that there are bright, intelligent, get-up-and-go young the best practice in the United States. people who, sadly, have left the school system without the numeracy and literacy required to fit into almost Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary any modern role. There is no more important task for of State said in his statement that the purpose of his this Government than to get those basics right, and I radical reform programme was to make “opportunity am grateful to the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy more equal”. Does he accept, however, that it is difficult Burnham) for acknowledging that in the first part of his to realise that aim while local authorities are not being response. treated equally? For example, in my local authority of Luton there are 3.1 pupils per family, compared with Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): May I test the English average of 1.9. Does the Secretary of State the Secretary of State’s commitment to poorer students? agree that, for Professor Wolf’s review recommendations Will he give a guarantee today that poor students in St to be successful, he must fund the measures properly? Helens will get more money and support than under the old system? Michael Gove: IamnotsurewhatleversIhaveatmy disposal to ensure that other parts of the country can Michael Gove: Yes. enjoy the same family size as Luton is blessed with. On the broader point of making sure there is funding for Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Luton, as the hon. Gentleman knows, Luton is blessed Does the Secretary of State agree that it is a sign of the with many excellent schools, such as Denbigh high last Government’s failure to improve education that school, which Dame YasminBevan leads, and the Barnfield more than 250,000 children left school last year without group of academies and studio schools. I look forward a C grade in GCSE maths and English? to visiting Luton shortly, when I will have an opportunity to talk to head teachers there. I hope I might also have Mr Speaker: Order. The short answer is no, and let an opportunity to talk to the hon. Gentleman about me repeat to the hon. Gentleman what I have already what more we can do to help continue the success had reason to say to him several times: questions must stories in his constituency. be about the policy of the current Government. I have made that point to him before, and he has breached the Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): requirement several times. He will not do so again. De Vere catering academy in my constituency offers dozens of aspiring young people the opportunity of a Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I want to follow on high-quality, employer-led apprenticeship. Will my right from the question of my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Friend say a little more about what is being done St Helens North (Mr Watts). Riverside college is a to ease the path for other employers to follow its lead? really good college in my constituency, but it has faced major funding cuts from the Secretary of State’s Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very good Government. Given that he has just guaranteed increased point. There is cross-party commitment to apprenticeships. funding for students in St Helens, will he also give the Unfortunately, however, while they are well intentioned same guarantee to students in my constituency of Halton? and justifiable in themselves, some of the bureaucracy surrounding the way in which the Skills Funding Agency Michael Gove: As soon as word gets out that we are has supported apprenticeships, some of the requirements engaging in one-to-one negotiations across the green that have been placed on apprenticeship frameworks, Benches, I expect that the Chamber will rapidly fill up, and some recording responsibilities of employers in even though there is a one-line Whip. I would repeat the respect of the individual learning record, have together point I made to the hon. Member for St Helens North added up to a significant burden that means that many (Mr Watts) to all Members: thanks to the coalition small and medium-sized enterprises in particular find it Government’s commitment to the pupil premium and expensive or burdensome to take on an apprentice. My to our reforms of 16-19 learning, the most disadvantaged hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, Skills students will receive more money. That is all thanks to and Lifelong Learning and my right hon. Friend the our commitment to social justice. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills are taking forward a programme to reduce that bureaucracy, Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): May I welcome and I hope it will be welcomed on both sides of the my right hon. Friend’s statement, and place on record House. my thanks to Professor Wolf for her excellent report? Will my right hon. Friend say a little more about the Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): As the Secretary delivery of these very important reforms? In particular, of State is well aware, modern business needs people has he looked closely at the US community college who can make, do, create and invent things, as well as 1381 Vocational Education12 MAY 2011 Vocational Education 1382 people who can analyse things, and even if Professor were not appropriate for them. We know that employers Wolf is right that her recommendations are compatible and universities welcome the courses in the English with the English bac if 20% of the curriculum is made baccalaureate, but some of the courses that had an available for those kinds of skills to be developed, the inflated value in league tables in the past, under the Secretary of State knows—as we all do—that, in practice, Government of whom he was a part, were not valued by this is not happening in some schools. Will he therefore employers or by higher or further education institutions. consider the following request, which I have made before: My hon. Friend also made a point about GCSEs and that he add to the English bac at least one qualification A-levels. We are working with Ofqual to make sure that that is about making, creating or doing, such as in every GCSE awarding body is appropriately rigorous, electrical engineering or making music? and we will work with universities to ensure that A-levels are even stronger. Michael Gove: I take on board the hon. Lady’s point. I think the intention behind her request is admirable, and it is reflected in what Professor Wolf says. However, Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Does my right it would be wrong for me to prescribe what additional hon. Friend agree that focusing narrowly on one measure qualification or course might be appropriate to encourage of school performance, particularly five A* to C grades people to acquire those practical skills. One of the for GCSE—I personally insist on those including maths points Professor Wolf makes is that there are many and English—creates perverse incentives for schools courses of study, or pursuits at school or beyond, that and encourages them to focus on borderline C and D might not necessarily lead specifically to a qualification grade students to the detriment of other students? but can provide people with the skills required. It is crucial that we support qualifications that are robust Michael Gove: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the and, where possible, invest in developing them to reflect head. Ultimately there will never be a single perfect what employers need, but we must also ensure flexibility accountability measure. The one he mentioned on floor and autonomy so that schools can do the right thing for standards has helped us to raise attainment in schools, their students. but one measure does not fit all. I therefore welcome his support for developing a more sophisticated way of Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I particularly analysing attainment, so that students with lower ability warmly welcome the announcement that 16 to 18-year-olds but real commitment can be recognised, and in particular who do not achieve a C grade in English or maths will so that schools that take students with low levels of continue to study those subjects. Further to the question previous attainment and transform their outlooks can asked by the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin be properly recognised and applauded. Shuker), how quickly will the Government be able to take action, so that we can end the practice under the previous Government of hundreds of thousands of Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I welcome Professor children leaving school without the requisite qualifications? Wolf’s report and the Government’s response. I was on the Education Select Committee that discussed the baccalaureate and was left in no doubt that Professor Michael Gove: My hon. Friend reminds us of the Wolf thought it was consistent with her interest in dreadful fact that only about 50% of students manage ensuring a proper academic basis to the measurement to leave state schools with five good GCSEs including of pupils’ performance. Does the Secretary of State English and maths. That means that hundreds of thousands agree that the baccalaureate will enable pupils to of young people simply do not have the opportunity to make sensible, informed choices and give them the move on to the jobs they deserve. confidence to implement those decisions when opportunities I see that the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) arise? is present. One of the great things he did when he was an FE college principal was develop courses that ensured that students could very quickly resit GCSE English Michael Gove: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. and maths, or follow courses that would lead them, in Hon. Members on both sides of the House listened due course, to acquiring a broadly comparable level of attentively to his question. We should pay particularly literacy and numeracy. I want to work with great FE close attention to him, given the role he has played in principals, as he once was, to ensure we get the right further education. We know—every nation knows—that courses for the right students. if students can reach a solid academic level by the age of 16, they will be in a strong position to choose which Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): I academic and vocational pathways they can move between wholeheartedly support the move to abolish equivalence later. Having a solid academic core creates no tension. for low-quality qualifications, which has effectively In fact, it is an absolute precondition to success in been a mis-selling scandal to young people for more vocational education. than 10 years now. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure that low quality GCSEs and A-levels Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Over the past are also not counted in our league tables? year, I have visited numerous manufacturing and engineering firms across Pendle that are keen to expand and recruit Michael Gove: My hon. Friend has been a fantastic more, where managers have told me that they are not campaigner for rigour in state education, and she is satisfied with the levels of literacy and numeracy among right that, as Professor Wolf points out, many qualifications job applicants. Does my right hon. Friend believe that were mis-sold to students on the basis that they would today’s proposals, along with some of the other measures lead to progression. The right hon. Member for Leigh outlined by the Government—for instance, for university talked about students being coerced into courses that technical colleges—will help to address this problem? 1383 Vocational Education 12 MAY 2011 1384

Michael Gove: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Personal Statement I know that east Lancashire has no better champion, and in particular that he speaks up effectively for young 12.53 pm people and businesses in his constituency. We can help Mr David Laws (Yeovil) (LD):I thank you, Mr Speaker, by ensuring that there are the opportunities for those for giving me this early opportunity to respond to the young people who in the past might not have had an Standards and Privileges Committee report on my expenses. education fit for their talents to succeed in English, I am also grateful to the Parliamentary Commissioner maths and the world of work. for Standards and his staff for their thorough and professional handling of this inquiry following my self- referral. The inquiry has found that I broke a number of important rules. I take complete and personal responsibility for the mistakes I made, and apologise without reservation to the House and my constituents. The commissioner found that there was a conflict between my personal interest in privacy and the public interest in openness and accountability. He concluded that I should have immediately resolved that conflict in the public interest, and I agree with that judgment. I have made it clear since this matter first became public that my motivation was solely to protect my privacy, and not to benefit in any way from the expenses system, and I am pleased that the commissioner has clearly supported my view about my motivation and that he has stated that there is no evidence that I made my claims with the intention of benefiting myself or those close to me. The commissioner has also concluded that if I had kept to the rules, including by correctly designating my main home, my total expense claims would have been considerably higher than they were. This is not, as the commissioner made clear, an adequate justification for breaking the rules, but it demonstrates that there was no adverse consequence for the taxpayer. This last year has been a difficult one for me, and I am grateful for all the support I have received, particularly from my constituents in Yeovil, who have been extremely generous in their understanding, tolerance and encouragement. Each of us should be our own sternest critic. Everyone in this place wants to see the reputation of the House restored after the past few disastrous years. If by my actions I have contributed to further undermining the House’s reputation, I can only apologise without reservation. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. 1385 12 MAY 2011 1386 Points of Order Backbench Business 12.55 pm [27TH ALLOTTED DAY] Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Further to my earlier question, Review of Parliamentary Standards Act could you provide me with some advice? Is it in order for a Minister to ask his Department not to provide him 2009 with information to avoid having to pass that information on to an MP seeking to clarify something that affects 12.57 pm his constituency? Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): I beg to move, That it be an instruction to the Committee on Members’ Mr Speaker: The short answer is that Ministers are Allowances established under Standing Order No. 152G (Committee responsible both for how they provide information, and on Members’ Allowances) that it review the operation of the for what information is, or is not, available to them. Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 and make recommendations, However, the hon. Gentleman has registered his point giving due consideration to ensuring: forcefully on the record. (a) value for money for taxpayers; (b) accountability; Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of (c) public confidence in Parliament; order, Mr Speaker. I want to register my disappointment that the House has been denied the opportunity to (d) the ability of Members to fulfil their duties effectively; thank and congratulate the Prime Minister on his reported (e) fairness for less well-off Members and those with families; decision to seek the withdrawal of 450 British troops and from Afghanistan. That decision could be taken this (f) that Members are not deterred from submitting legitimate month. It clearly suggests, first, a withdrawal from the claims. Government’s over-optimism and, secondly, a determination I thank hon. Members on both sides of the House for to recognise the futility of the present operation and to their support in crafting today’s motion and ensuring bring our soldiers home to the safety of our shores. that it was tabled and supported. I also thank you, Mr Speaker, for supporting Back Benchers in having Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman’s guileful if slightly their voices heard in this place, and the Leader of the inappropriate use of the point of order procedure to House for his robust defence of the functions of the register his political point is further evidence of why he House and for making it known to the external bodies is the acclaimed author of a tome entitled, “How to be that deal with our expenses that we are keen for the a Backbencher”. system not to impede the work that MPs do on behalf of their constituents. None of us wants to be discussing expenses, and it is sad that we have to, but given that the expenses system has caused so much trouble over the years, and the current expenses regime continues to raise concerns for many Members and for democracy at large, it is our duty at least to consider a measured, sensible and calm way forward in which we can review the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 to consider whether it is achieving the goals set for it. I want to make clear, therefore, what we are aiming to do today.The motion is about considering ways of cutting the cost of Parliament to taxpayers in the long term, and about giving MPs’ time back to their constituents, rather than allowing them to be waylaid by bureaucracy beyond what is necessary for accountability. It is also about reviewing whether Parliament can be a place open to people from all backgrounds, including less well-off ones. Irrespective of our own personal positions—in many cases—it is important that Parliament does not become a place where only wealthy people can serve and thrive without damage to their public reputation. The motion is part of the process of cleaning up our politics. It is right that this debate should be held in Back-Bench time, because the terms and conditions of Members of Parliament in serving their constituents and doing their duty within a democracy are rightly for this place to determine rather than for the Government to take the lead on—unless, of course, the taxpayers’ purse is affected. Then the Government must take a very robust position. Let us be clear: it is Parliament that holds Government and the Executive to account, not vice versa. That is why I want to thank the Chairman of the Backbench 1387 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1388 Act 2009 Act 2009 [Adam Afriyie] duties of holding the Executive to account, representing their constituents and picking up issues, but they are Business Committee, the Leader of the House, the constantly being harangued over issues regarding which, shadow Leader of the House and others for recognising one might argue, they should not necessarily be under that this is an issue that should really be raised, as it is pressure. being, in Back-Bench time. I shall not go through the litany of the crimes of the Today’s motion says that MPs take their responsibilities current system, much as I would love to. Anybody seriously. What does it do? It instructs an existing reasonable and anybody who knows how this place Committee to review the Parliament Standards Act 2009, operates—the people who voted us into this place last as amended in 2010. It not only instructs the Committee May clearly recognised that the people being elected to review the Act, but asks it to make recommendations here were people who wanted to serve—will know that to the House about any changes that it thinks might the overwhelming majority of Members are desperate need to take place, giving due consideration to the just to get on with their job and to perform the duties important issues about which we are all concerned, for which they were elected. I hope that this motion is such as accountability. carried today so that we can have a calm look at whether the 2009 Act is performing the function that, Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I with all the good intentions and good motivation in the congratulate the hon. Gentleman on all the hard work world, it was intended to achieve. that he has undertaken over many months on this very My heart goes out to the new Members who came in important issue. There is now a person in the Independent in 2005. Many were elected on a ticket saying that they Parliamentary Standards Authority called the compliance abhorred the expenses crisis, and they were right to officer, and as a consequence of my having a very small campaign on that ticket— logo on my website—a tiny little thing with “Labour” on it—I received two recorded delivery letters and was Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): It was 2010. summonsed to respond within a certain time. When I phoned, I asked why they did not just lift the phone to Adam Afriyie: That is right; I meant the 2010 intake. me and say, “Look, this is against the rules. Why don’t My heart goes out to them, because they have been as you remove it?” It was the way that it was done. The meticulous and careful as they can not to overclaim and bureaucracy involved in that process needs to be considered, not to make erroneous claims; I know this because I along with many other things. know many of them personally. In fact, 92% of people here are not claiming what they are entitled to claim, Adam Afriyie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for just so they can be as careful as possible, yet every eight mentioning that. I noticed just the other day that 40 hon. weeks their names are run through the press, which Members have been reported and may well be investigated presents any claim at all as being in some way illegitimate. for some very minor and seemingly almost irrelevant I do not entirely blame the press for that. In some ways, matters. I have seen newspaper coverage of Members’ it might be the workings of the 2009 Act that are being criticised for claiming £3 here and £4 there. It perpetuating that perception, which in the majority of seems to me that the public standing of this place is not cases is not a reality. necessarily enhanced by some of the practices in place at the moment, and that is why we need calmly to take a Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The hon. step back and review the situation. We need to review Gentleman is making a very thoughtful and considered the 2009 Act and ask whether it is improving and speech. Does he agree that there is now a worry that restoring the integrity of Parliament and its hon. Members IPSA is straying into areas where it was never intended through its operation. to go? For example, two colleagues who have recently Clearly, some disgraceful acts happened in the past been injured had great difficulty in getting IPSA to and no one is condoning that. We needed to make allow them to claim taxis to come to the House, although changes and I welcome the progress that has been made, they were not allowed to use public transport. At one but we must now calmly review the Act, its operation point, a member of IPSA asked them why they were and the current arrangements. going to work. We cannot have people who are there to regulate expenses deciding when Members of Parliament Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The should or should not be able to come to the House. hon. Gentleman is making a very good speech, but is it not a fact that the vast majority of Members in this Adam Afriyie: The hon. Lady raises a key point that House never did anything wrong and never broke any is at the heart of our democracy. In a parliamentary rules—I am talking about more than 600 of us—but democracy, Members are elected in order to make or have been rewarded by having our job of serving our change the laws. Parliament is sovereign in our nation constituents and checking on the Executive made much within the way that our unwritten constitution works. more difficult? My job here is to serve my constituents One has to ask whether it is right for an external body and call the Executive to account, and I am finding it to be able to determine the way in which Members of much more difficult to do that under the new rules. Parliament, who are elected by the public, do their work. It is not just a question of the level of remuneration, Adam Afriyie: That is the observation of many Members, as we understand that and accept the need for independence. I think. I have to say—I hope I will not get a hiss for I think most people are comfortable with that. If such a this—that the media and those who really understand body determines the way in which we do our work, how this place works are beginning to recognise just however, tough questions must be asked about the how difficult it is becoming for Members of Parliament arrangements. I hope that as the Committee carries out on both sides of the House who want to go about their the review some of these questions will be raised. 1389 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1390 Act 2009 Act 2009 There is an opportunity for the Committee calmly to Adam Afriyie: From my observations of the system in consider not only the current difficulties—the level of Scotland in particular, and the system in Wales, I think accountability and whether it is full enough, whether there are certainly some virtues in the way they operate. receipts need to be published and all those detailed I have also conducted a review of 27 different systems issues that affect us on a day-to-day basis—but the around the world, including those in Canada, Denmark, constitutional position. It might also consider some of some of the Scandinavian countries and particularly the issues to do with tidying up the omissions and other Germany, and it is clear that they take a very different small errors that we made in our haste as we rushed to view of how expenses and remuneration systems should make the changes, which we were right to do. operate for members of their Parliaments. That was not a scientific review, but there were certainly Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I welcome the some very clear patterns. In Germany they have said it establishment of the Committee. Will my hon. Friend would be utterly ridiculous to lumber the taxpayer with confirm whether the membership of the Committee has the cost of receipting tiny claims, because the cost been determined yet, and if it has not, whether he would be disproportionate to the benefit to the taxpayer. would be prepared to serve on it? It seems to me that he That is something that a review would need to consider, would be an ideal candidate. but I do not wish to pre-empt where it might go. It would need to take evidence and take a very careful look at comparisons from around the world. One or Adam Afriyie: My interest in this issue has been on two other nations have what are called sessional indemnities the public record for many years, and I would be very and different, very simple arrangements for office happy to play a part in any Committee established for accommodation and housing for their members. That is this purpose, but naturally such a Committee should something we need to look at. have no special privileges. I hope that it would be set up A key area that I hope the review will look into is the in the same way as other Committees are established, situation of Members who are not of independent but of course I am interested in this issue and would like means—those who do not have large outside incomes, to do my best to try to assist Parliament and hon. trust funds or inherited wealth, and those who did not Members of all persuasions in doing their jobs without have incredibly successful businesses or professional unnecessary obstacles being placed in the way. careers before arriving here. In many ways, I think we Let me make some quick observations on some of have to consider whether the expenses system is penalising the stresses and strains. I make these observations not such Members for not being wealthy. There is a danger necessarily to make judgments at this moment but that if, as I have said, 92% of Members are not claiming simply to flag up some of the areas that cause concern, what they are entitled to claim, this place will become a and which any future review might wish to consider. place only for those who are wealthy. The first such area is cost. One of the mandates for the The motion simply asks the Committee to conduct a Committee is that it must have due regard to the need review of the 2009 Act. I hope there will not be dissent for value for money for the taxpayer. The budget for today. This issue of expenses is incendiary, but it is our IPSA seems quite high, and was certainly significantly duty in this place to act without fear or favour in the higher in the first year than that for the previous year’s interests of democracy, our constituents and the taxpayer. arrangements. That is something we need to look at. A calm, methodical review of the 2009 Act is a very Those costs might be appropriately high; it might be important step, and is part of the process. right that it is very expensive to operate what should be a relatively simple system, but any review must look Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): Does the hon. into that. Gentleman agree that it is critical that the House should Secondly, we have to consider the impact that the uphold the fundamental importance of independence 2009 Act is having on the time that MPs have available in these matters, which is absolutely crucial to restoring to perform their duties. There is no doubt, from my own public confidence after all the scandals? experience and that of hon. Members who were here before 2010, that the level and work load associated Adam Afriyie: It is my personal view, and that of with the expenses systems and such matters has escalated many Members, that it would be a very strange day if enormously.Literally days are taken away from constituents we were to start determining our pay or rations once as the time of Members and their staff is taken up. again. I do not think that anyone wants to head in that There is an enormous level of stress associated with the direction, and I have not heard of many people wanting IPSA system, and we need to take a calm look at the to do so. The independence of the body setting the level impact that is having on our democracy and on Members’ of remuneration is a good thing. Whatever any review ability to represent their constituents. sets out to do, it must ensure that that independence is maintained. Indeed, it could even be enhanced. With those remarks, I urge Members to support the motion. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Let us have a calm and sensible review of where we are. (PC): The hon. Gentleman is making a very thoughtful speech. Like many Members in Wales, I have joint 1.15 pm offices with Assembly Members and I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s point about stress. The stress for staff Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I of dealing with expenses for Westminster is far higher want to paint a picture of two different parliamentary than the stress of dealing with expenses for the devolved expenses schemes. One is bureaucratic, difficult to Administrations. Does he think IPSA should look at understand and administer, expensive to run and universally the systems in Scotland and Wales and see whether we loathed by those whom it seeks to serve. The other is could adopt a similar system? relatively inexpensive, easy to understand and universally 1391 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1392 Act 2009 Act 2009 [Pete Wishart] problem is the mind-numbing bureaucracy of the thing. I do not want my staff sitting there on the phone to accepted by those whom it seeks to serve. It might IPSA Towers. I do not want them wading through the surprise some to know that both those schemes currently quadruplicate reconciliations that are required. I want exist in the UK. The first is our good friend IPSA, and them to work to help my constituents; that is what they the second is the scheme that operates in Scotland are there to do. Why are they wasting their precious without fuss, issues or any difficulty whatever. time, which should be spent on my constituents, on that A year on from IPSA’s creation, we are here again mind-numbing useless bureaucracy? It is time that we discussing its many and manifest failures, while the addressed that question properly. system in Scotland works without any issues or difficulty. The Scottish system and IPSA have one thing in No one cares to hear about it, and even the press are common—one that we all want to see: transparency. bored with it. They lost interest in the tea and biscuits That is what it should be about; transparency is the key stories years ago and they have gone on to other things, to the way forward. The system used by the Scottish but it was not always like that in Scotland. In the early Parliament is even better, because receipts are put on days of the Scottish Parliament there were a number of each MSP’s website and are available at the click of a alarming stories, but nothing on the scale of what mouse, so we achieve transparency without the massive happened in this House. Initially, the Scottish Parliament difficulties caused by the bureaucracy of filling in all more or less copied in full the parliamentary scheme those forms. from this place, but then there were difficulties, so it IPSA has had a chance to try to resolve those issues. patiently, constructively and conscientiously fashioned Unfortunately, I missed the debate secured by the hon. a new system, which has worked. That system has the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) before Christmas. support of MSPs and the public, who know it is fair I do not think that I have yet congratulated him on and transparent, and the press no longer have any securing this debate, and on his diligence in pursuing particular interest in it. the issue. After the first debate, IPSA was charged with One way of illustrating the difference between the the task of getting some of those difficulties in order. two systems is by looking at them through the eyes of There have been some improvements, which we are all the staff who have the misery of dealing with them on prepared to welcome, but the culture and the institution our behalf. I share an office with a Member of the are still very much in place. There has not been a Scottish Parliament. We share staff and our office manager cultural shift in the way in which IPSA deals with MPs’ looks after our office issues for us jointly, so she is expenses, so we are right to try to pursue the issue along responsible for paying all the bills and making sure that the lines that the hon. Gentleman was prepared to all the offices work effectively. When she does the expenses suggest. Let us see if we can look at the 2009 Act again work for the MSP, it is over in minutes: the direct debit to try to get something different. for office supplies—done; a few receipts for the travel We do not need to look too far afield, although I required—finished. But then we almost hear her groan would be fascinated to learn about other international of anguish when it is time to turn to the MP’s expenses. examples. We need look only 500 miles up the road to With a heavy heart, she draws down the IPSA website find a system that functions perfectly well, supported by again and the hours of misery start. Is it the four hours those whom it serves and by the public, and without any to be spent on the travel reconciliations for last month, issue or interest from the press whatsoever. We do not or the trying to sit through the quadruplicate reconciliation need to reinvent the wheel; we just need to strap a that IPSA requires for travel that causes the misery? Is it Caledonian one on to the House and get on with it. the endless phone calls to IPSA Towers, trying to understand That is what we should do now, as we have an opportunity and decipher the new, panicky rewrite of some of the to try to resolve this. When the issue of expenses came rules? Or is it the stress of possibly getting a claim before the House a couple of years ago, we strongly wrong—of something going into the wrong column or suggested that people should take a look at the Scottish category and the claim being returned or, worse, refused system. That proposal was rejected in favour of IPSA, and opened up for the ritual press humiliation that and the House probably realises that it made a dramatic comes when those expenses are published every two and drastic mistake in going down that route—but months? there is still time to try to achieve a change. Let us not do something radically different. Let us just do something David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): that works, and something works just up the road. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that having an IPSA-type body is a good thing for MPs, but that it is so over- 1.22 pm bureaucratic that it stifles what we are here to do? Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I congratulate Speaking from personal experience, I think that if it my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) were not for Philip from IPSA having come around and on tabling the motion, and on the diligent work that he helped out many of the Members who are present has done on behalf of Parliament and the taxpayer. I today, we would all be in a world of pain. have been asked to chair the MPs’ side of the committee liaising with IPSA, and we have done our honest best in Pete Wishart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making recent months to try to put MPs’ views to IPSA. Our that point, which gives me the opportunity to say that meetings are courteous and lengthy. We have covered there is nothing wrong with the staff who work for the entire ground but, at the end of the day, many of IPSA, most of whom are courteous and very helpful. our suggestions are simply not acted on. The motion They do all they can to try to resolve some of the will provide further impetus to IPSA to listen to Parliament. difficulties and issues that confront us and our staff day Everyone accepts that we must have an independent in, day out. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the body that sets the overall levels of remuneration, but we 1393 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1394 Act 2009 Act 2009 still have a fantastically bureaucratic system that employs What is the way forward? So many of the problems 70 staff and which costs upwards of £6 million just to with which we deal in public life are utterly difficult and do the expenses of 650 people. It is an absurdly bureaucratic intractable, as we know when we deal with the NHS, system that must be reviewed, not for our sake but for social security and the economy, but there is a simple the sake of the taxpayer. solution staring us in the face on this issue, and there It is perfectly possible to devise a system that can always has been. Although the old expenses regime was command public confidence and result in a much lower much criticised, when it began it was not an expenses cost to the taxpayer. Our first priority is cutting the cost regime but an allowances regime, effectively providing a to the taxpayer, who has to pay for all of this. It is an flat-rate allowance. As long as it remained a flat-rate expensive way of doing things. Secondly, we want to allowance, it worked. It began to go wrong when it minimise the possibility of fraud and error. As we have became the expenses regime. The moment that we began seen with social security, one of the best ways to do that to ask MPs to maximise their so-called expenses by is to simplify the system as much as possible. Thirdly—this submitting receipts, we ensured that sooner or later a point was made by my hon. Friend and others—we Member of Parliament would end up in prison, which is want to open Parliament up, and ensure that it is an what has happened. If it had remained a flat-rate allowances attractive place for people of all types, from all regions, system, we would not have had all the issues that we of all levels of income, and all the rest of it, who want to have had. come here. I cannot prejudge what the Committee will do, but it I mentioned all regions, because disincentives are is worth putting a marker in the sand, because we have built into the current system. For instance, is being a made the point continuously in the regular liaison committee Member of Parliament, with our existing expenses regime meetings with IPSA. People nod their heads, but our and the way in which families are still treated, an points are ignored. I just hope that if the evidence from attractive option for a lady GP working in Newcastle the new Committee supports my point of view, and if upon Tyne? I do not think so. We should encourage in the matter returns to the House, the new Committee particular women with families who want to serve as will not be ignored. If it makes a sensible proposal that Members of Parliament, which means that we must has been worked through for many months, with hearings have an expenses regime that understands Parliament of witnesses who have expressed their views, and offers and the fact that many people who come to the House a proposal to the House, I hope that at that stage the are not just coming to London for an occasional business Government will not try to block it once again, just as trip. It is often a life sentence, as people have to spend successive Governments have always blocked every sensible half their time in a constituency that may be a long way resolution on the grounds that it is not acceptable to from London, and the other half in London. Younger public opinion, they are not ready, and all the other Members of Parliament with young families, in particular, issues. I think that public opinion is ready. All members want to be with their families, so ultimately we need an of the public I talk with say, “Why can’t MPs just be expenses regime—we have to keep repeating this—that allowed to get on with it? They should be paid a proper is not too bureaucratic, which is attractive, minimises salary and left to live their lives.” fraud and error and cuts the cost to the taxpayer. The present system does not do that. Some people claim that IPSA has made progress, but We have those meetings in our liaison committee, but its latest reforms almost make the situation worse, because we have no power whatsoever. We can make suggestions it is getting more involved in the family life of MPs. We on all the points that are made to me in e-mails and are paid extra if we have children, and a slightly increased letters from colleagues, but ultimately we can still be allowance when the children are between certain ages. ignored. There has been some progress, particularly on What happens when the children grow up, which they how we run our offices. The way in which IPSA originally always do? There are all those sorts of issues. We are tried to set up the expenses regime for MPs’ offices was going down the same track as our social security system, absurd. It was ludicrously bureaucratic, but we have with more interference in people’s private lives. Frankly, made progress, and MPs can increasingly use the IPSA how an MP lives their private life is none of IPSA’s debit card to ensure that the money they need to run business, nor anyone else’s. All we have to accept is that their offices does not go through their personal bank all MPs have to live some of their lives in London and accounts. The fact that MPs were forced to subsidise some of their lives in their constituencies. their offices from their bank accounts was almost a I have always thought, as was said time and again in throwback to the 18th century, when Ministers had the liaison committee, that the obvious solution was to to pay for government from their own personal bank build on the old London weighting allowance, which accounts. The situation was ridiculous, and we have was a flat-rate, taxable allowance. If it is flat-rate and made progress. taxable, it is not the business of the Inland Revenue and We have also made progress on travel, but there is no possibility for fraud or error. I am not accommodation remains a bugbear. I hope that the suggesting that we can move to such a system immediately, motion will be approved today and we can make progress. as many MPs have now made arrangements for renting Let us be quite honest about this. MPs’ accommodation and should be allowed to continue with that very has been the kernel of the problem for the past 30 years. bureaucratic expenses regime, with receipts and all the It has proved difficult because successive Governments rest of it, if they wish to do so. However, MPs must have have not wanted to bite the bullet. My hon. Friend some opportunity to opt out of that bureaucratic system originally tabled another motion for the Order Paper, and into a flat-rate, taxable allowance system. Otherwise, but I understand that there were Government sensitivities we will create perverse incentives. We also said in the about allowing it to go through. However, it would have committee that the more rules we have, the more perverse maximised pressure on IPSA to reach a reasonable incentives there will be. For example, there is a perverse settlement on accommodation. incentive for MPs who have been paying for their second 1395 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1396 Act 2009 Act 2009 [Mr Edward Leigh] I understood the intricacies of Balkan politics when I was the British commander of forces there much better homes with mortgages to rent those homes out and than I understand the intricacies of trying to get a claim then rent themselves a flat, at greater cost to IPSA. How from IPSA. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who is a does that help the taxpayer? It is ludicrous. parliamentary hero for what he is trying to do. His I very much hope that the Committee will be set up, determination is in the highest traditions of this House. take evidence and come back with simple solutions that We need a simple, fair and honest system that is cheaper ultimately protect the taxpayer. That is what we are for the taxpayer—if that is possible—and allows us to about. It should also ensure that MPs have the maximum do our jobs properly. I fully support the need to review amount of time to hold the Executive to account, which the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. I am not sure is why we are here. We are not here to have our staff that IPSA should go, but I am sure that the system spend hours every week enmeshed in some bureaucratic should be reviewed as soon as possible. expenses regime. The only reason for our existence is to hold those people on the Front Bench to account in an 1.38 pm independent and satisfactory way. I have to say that John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): My constituency is IPSA is still not there yet. I hope that, with the Committee one of the furthest from the sea, so the next debate on being set up, we will finally make progress, cut the cost fisheries has no real relevance for jobs there—we merely to the taxpayer and do the job we were elected to do. eat the product—but I put it to the House that that debate is of far more consequence to my constituents 1.33 pm than wasting parliamentary time on the self-indulgent obsession of some MPs with the expenses system, which, Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): As one of the youngest along with pay, should be determined by an independent Members of the 2010 intake, I remember sitting in body away from this House. That is what should remain. the Members’ centre a few days after my election and listening to a young lady—much younger than me, surprisingly—who was speaking on the telephone and 1.39 pm trying very hard to arrange accommodation for herself Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I, too, will not in London. She happened to be a member of the detain the House for long. I entirely agree with the hon. Opposition. Each time she spoke with an estate agent, it Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) that there are was clear that she could not do it, and after two hours many other things we could be discussing, but we must she gave up. I quickly soused that— not lose sight of the fact that many hon. Members on both sides of the House are forced, as a result of the Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Sussed. You overly bureaucratic IPSA system, to spend hours and souse a herring. hours dealing with something that should be relatively straightforward. Bob Stewart: Souse a herring—are we not moving on Before becoming a Member, I, like my hon. Friend to that debate in a moment? the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), was in I quickly sussed that the expenses system was not private practice, and my organisation had an expenses working very well. I have spent most of my adult life in system that was simple, clear and straightforward. If public service, but I have also been in business in the someone paid something out of their own pocket for private sector. In those jobs, there was a very clear which they needed reimbursement, they produced the principle that if one spent money doing one’s job, one receipt, took it to the cashiers at the accounts department, should be properly recompensed. It was simple and and they checked that it was in order and paid a cheque effective. It seems to me that IPSA makes difficulties in recompense. when it should not do so. I am lucky, because my I appreciate that the affairs of Members are far more constituency is close to Westminster and I can travel complicated than that, but in essence the procedure home each night—22 minutes from Victoria station to ought to be fairly simple, yet it is difficult to conceive of Shortlands—except when we have an absurdly lengthy, a more complicated system than our current one. I trust late-night sitting, when I am told I am allowed to go to that when the existing Committee is re-established, the a hotel. Members should rest assured that on such membership will find time to look at all aspects of the occasions I do not cost the taxpayer any money, because expenses scheme but, in particular, two matters that I I get out my army camp bed and kip in my office, think are of specific concern. illegally. It is a damn sight easier that trying to check First, no distinction seems to be drawn between into a hotel at 12.30 at night. expenses of a capital and of a revenue nature. The revision has addressed that to an extent by providing a Helen Jones: Especially on what IPSA allows. new allowance for new Members, and that is great for Members who are elected in the future or as a result of Bob Stewart: Exactly. a by-election, but the new scheme will be of no benefit It is clear that IPSA puts colleagues off claiming a to Members elected, like myself, in the 2010 general lot. My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam election, many of whom face having to purchase capital Afriyie) noted that 92% of Members do not claim what items out of budgets that were set for revenue. they are entitled to, which I think is pretty dreadful. If That leads me to my second point, the publication of they do not claim it, that means they are paying for it expenses figures on an eight-weekly basis. This provides from their salaries, and we are not that well paid, a constant feed of information for the newspapers, considering some of the commitments that we are not which not surprisingly then use it to form league tables. allowed to claim for. Again, not surprisingly, if someone has paid a large 1397 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1398 Act 2009 Act 2009 amount out in that eight-week period, they will go year ago; the definition of London; and the merging of straight to the top of the league table. It will be all over the budgets for constituency office rental and for general the newspapers that they are “Top of the league table,” office costs. yet they will have done nothing wrong. In fact, over the There has been an increase in the staffing budget, whole year their expenses may well come bottom of the although it still does not take account of the costs of table, but people will remember and focus on the fact the pension contribution that was passed on to MPs’ the Member was top for that period. budgets a year ago, or of the additional work load that We are not comparing like with like if we issue figures dealing with IPSA places on Members and on their for such a short period, so I hope that when the Committee staff. That situation will leave a number of MPs having is re-established, it will find time to look at those two to go back to the contingency fund again this year in matters. order to continue to employ the staff they already have 1.42 pm and need, and that really does strike me as unsatisfactory. Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I welcome the There is now greater use of the payment card, but opportunity that the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam that is not an unalloyed blessing: it is still not available Afriyie) has given us—I, like others, think he made a for all costs—as I understand it, it can be used for very thoughtful speech—to assess what progress has business rates but not for office rent, and for stationery been made in addressing the concerns that were last but not for photocopiers; and reconciliation is still far debated here in December. too time-consuming. I can say from personal experience that accounting for train travel takes much longer than Like the hon. Gentleman, I strongly support an under the old system, when I have to take account of independent and a transparent system, because publication finding the tickets, going on to the IPSA website, typing is the best safeguard and there can be no going back on in destinations repeatedly, copying everything and then that at all. I know that that view is shared across the posting off the form having made the details available House, but I do share the feeling of Members that, online. despite the outcome of the recent review and the progress that we have made, which I want to touch on, dealing What would really help and, I think, deal with a lot of with IPSA takes up far too much time. Time, whether of frustration is either, if more details could be obtained Members or our staff, has an opportunity cost, and that from the credit card company to satisfy IPSA or, if means we have less time to do our job. IPSA could just agree with the House of Commons travel office that buying a ticket through the office First, we ought to recognise that setting up IPSA was would provide the assurance that it was us who bought a very big task. Parliament asked for it to be done in a it, and that it was a ticket between Westminster and our very short space of time, and Professor Sir Ian Kennedy constituency or back. I use that as an example, because and his senior colleagues, who have been unfailingly it should be a relatively simple thing to do, and I think it generous in the time they have given to listen to us, would take away a lot of the frustration that has been himself acknowledges that IPSA did not get everything expressed in today’s debate and before. right. I agree with the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who said that IPSA The second issue I wish to raise is about what is staff continue to be unfailingly courteous and as helpful allowed and what will be approved, because IPSA has as they possibly can be in trying to assist us, but the realised sensibly that there is a balance to be struck in concerns that bring us back here today are not about relation to increasingly prescriptive rules. IPSA has them but the system itself. come face to face with the way in which we do our job, I said in December that if we asked Members, “Is with Members saying, “What if? This is what I do. Is it IPSA helping you to do your job?”, we would find that okay?”, and it has thought about the issue and realised the answer was overwhelmingly no. That was certainly sensibly that we can either have an increasingly long reflected in the survey of parliamentary Labour party rule book, with an increasingly lengthy “frequently members that we undertook in submitting evidence to asked questions” page on the website, or let Members the review, and frankly that ought to be the test. We exercise their judgment, in the context of the rules as should not be spending any more time than is necessary they are laid down and subject to the sunlight of publication. on discussing the matter, particularly when it ought to The review has moved more in the direction of the be a relatively simple task. latter, but may I offer some advice to the Committee The issue is about making sure that we as Members that we are going to establish on the work that it is have the means that we need to do the job. “Expenses” going do? There is still a process in-between through is a terrible misnomer, because it is about the means to which a Member may choose to exercise their discretion do the job. They include staff, loyal and incredibly and IPSA may second-guess that when deciding whether hard-working, who support us in our work and without to approve a claim. We are betwixt and between a more whom we could not manage; an office; paying the sensible approach. telephone, electricity and stationery bills; the travel Thirdly, we have heard today about how Members costs between Westminster and our constituencies; and, feel the system treats them in individual cases and on as the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) case work, and I hope that the review will dig into the rightly said, the cost of having to live and to work in detail and draw on the experience of the liaison committee, two places, which is in the nature of the job of being a so that the issues which the hon. Member for Gainsborough Member of Parliament. raised might be looked at. On the review, we should acknowledge the progress Fourthly, there is the question of value for money, that was made on, for example, support for MPs with something that the Speaker’s Committee for the family responsibilities—in relation both to travel and to Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is looking accommodation; a start-up budget for new MPs, learning at. Indeed, as Members will know, the National Audit from the experience that our new colleagues faced a Office is carrying out a value-for-money review. 1399 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1400 Act 2009 Act 2009 [Hilary Benn] acknowledged that and put some of those things right, particularly as regards enabling us to do our jobs properly. Finally, I say to the hon. Member for Windsor that I The Government, and all Members, are concerned about welcome the transformation in the motion before us ensuring that the system helps rather than hinders. from that which was on the Order Paper yesterday. If As the right hon. Members for Oxford East (Mr Smith) we have learned one lesson, it is that legislating in haste and for Leeds Central said, it is important that we have on this matter can create difficulties. an independent body that oversees the expenses system I support the motion because it seems to be a very and how it operates. We must also have a transparent sensible way forward. We should take the opportunity system. As the right hon. Member for Leeds Central to review the effectiveness of the system that Parliament said, it is the sunlight of transparency that helps to established, and we should assess progress as well as ensure that it works properly. identifying what more needs to be done. I, for one, look forward to the result of the Committee’s work. Adam Afriyie: My hon. Friend is talking about the Brandeis doctrine; Brandeis was a Supreme Court judge 1.49 pm in the early 1900s. The review will also need to look at what subsequent academics have said about this. Sunlight The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark is a great disinfectant, but it is conditional on the Harper): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for information that is provided being comparable and on Windsor (Adam Afriyie) on securing the debate and on it being, disaggregated, so that not only grouped claims his revised motion, which the right hon. Member for or information are published. It is also conditional on Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said he can support, and the information being standardised, and any review will which the Government can also support. Setting up a need to look into those issues. Committee to carry out post-legislative reviews to see how legislation actually takes effect is something that Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. This is a we are always being urged to do in the House, and it is good opportunity to leap forward to a point I was going welcome. It will provide Members with the opportunity to make later, which was mentioned by the hon. Member to put forward facts and the Committee with the for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) when he opportunity to take evidence and then to come back to talked about the publication of data. I know that it can the House with its recommendations for consideration. be uncomfortable for hon. Members when information I thank my hon. Friend for his thoughtful and measured is published, but we are going to have to get used to it, speech, which was referred to by Members on both and there is no going back. sides of the House. My hon. Friend makes a good point. There is a My hon. Friend’s motion is very sensible in focusing debate to be had, and these are matters that IPSA can on the important things—value for money, accountability think about. There are ways of publishing information and public confidence. It also refers to the need to that make it comparable and deal with the league table ensure problem, but also make it very matter of fact and not “that Members are not deterred from submitting legitimate claims.” very interesting to the press. There is an argument that I want him to clarify one part of his speech because I if we publish the information in real time as we go am not sure that I heard it correctly. I think he said that along, and do not save it up and publish it in lumps—the 92% of Members do not claim for things for which they point made by the hon. Member for Perth and North are legitimately allowed to claim, but I would be grateful Perthshire—it becomes normal, matter-of-fact, routine if he could confirm that. I have not seen that data business that is not of interest to the media. I think it is published, and I would be grateful if he could provide fair to say that it has become much less interesting to some detail. the national media; we do not tend to see the front page stories any more. I know, however, that individual hon. Adam Afriyie: I certainly will. This is based on the Members often have to deal with local newspaper stories evidence that I have received and that the 1922 committee where their papers drill down into particular claims demonstrated some time ago—that is, that 92% of hon. that, in isolation, take a fair degree of explanation but Members are not claiming for all the categories for are perfectly reasonable claims for carrying out their work. which they are entitled to claim. That would need to be examined; I make no judgment on it right now. Adam Afriyie: I conducted a review of regional and local newspaper publications. The evidence is pretty Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for conclusive. The bimonthly publication we looked at had clarifying that, which is very helpful. about 28 million readers. We found that 97% of local As my hon. Friend and the right hon. Member for newspaper stories were negative towards MPs, and Leeds Central said, several things have happened since 63% of the stories made unfair or misleading comparisons we last debated IPSA in December. At that time, IPSA between MPs and their claims. A lot of this was generated had not carried out its review of the scheme, and many by the way in which the information was being provided Members took the opportunity of that debate to put on to the media under the current scheme. Again, that is record their specific concerns not only about the operation something we will look at. of the scheme but its rules. One or two Members have done that today, but in December the comments were Mr Harper: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. This is much more focused on individual circumstances. IPSA an opportunity to acknowledge that, as other Members has listened to some of those concerns. As the right have said, he has done a lot of analytical work. Depending hon. Gentleman said, it recognised when it set up the on what the House decides about who serves on the scheme that it did not get everything right in terms of Committee, I am sure that his research will be of great its rules and the how it operated. To be fair, it has help as it carries out its work. 1401 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1402 Act 2009 Act 2009 Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I would add Mr Harper: The Comptroller and Auditor General that it is not just about the local media; the BBC in the makes it clear that all the NAO’s work will be independent north-east has taken the approach of doing league and evidence based. The answer to the hon. Lady’s tables rather than any analysis of the information. Even question is that it is for Members to provide the NAO though I have tried to FOI the expenses of the journalists with that evidence. The NAO has a brief to look at the on the “Politics Show” in the north-east, the BBC has public sector as a whole; as its masthead says, it is refused to release them, and I now have an appeal with “Helping the nation spend wisely”. If Members feel, as the Information Commissioner. If this is about public a number have said today, that there is a problem not money and transparency, should not other bodies such just with the bureaucratic system, but with the time as the BBC also have their expenses published? spent administering it by them and their staff, who are employed at public cost, they should take the opportunity Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman is trying to draw me to furnish the NAO with that information. I might be into a much wider debate about public transparency, going a little beyond my remit here. I do not know how but this is not the right time for that. He will know that detailed the questionnaire will be. There might not be a there are ongoing discussions between the BBC and the specific question about this matter, but I suspect that National Audit Office about various issues, and I am there will be. If Members provide this information, sure that they will carry on. I am not going to take his the NAO will be able to take it into account. It is no invitation to dwell on those issues today. good the NAO just looking at the scheme and the direct costs incurred by IPSA. If, because of the way I want to return to the annual review that IPSA IPSA is operating, it is putting an extra burden on undertook. I think it is fair to say that it made some our offices, which are funded by the taxpayer, the NAO changes to the scheme and has made it better and easier should take that into account. The hon. Lady’s point for Members to operate. As my hon. Friend the Member is therefore very helpful, and Members should give for Windsor said, it has effectively given us more discretion the NAO as much information as possible, so that it about judging what things are relevant to our parliamentary can write a sensible, evidence-based report with duties and carrying out our responsibilities. That then recommendations. No doubt those recommendations raises some other questions, which is welcome. My hon. will then be considered by the Public Accounts Committee, Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), who as is the usual process, and the Committee that we are chairs the liaison committee, acknowledged the progress setting up. that has been made on office costs and on travel, although he acknowledged that there was work to be The Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, done in other areas of expenses. It is worth saying that which was passed in the last Parliament, amended the there has been progress, although I know that many Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 to give IPSA a general Members think that there has not been enough and duty to behave in a cost-effective, efficient manner, and needs to be more. to support MPs to carry out their work efficiently, Members referred to value for money, which is specifically cost-effectively and transparently. IPSA therefore has a mentioned in the motion. It is worth setting out a little statutory duty to do what it does transparently and more detail. The right hon. Member for Leeds Central independently, and cost-effectively. The NAO report referred to the NAO report. My right hon. Friend the will help to advise IPSA on whether it is complying with Leader of the House has received a letter from the the duties it has to carry out under the law that set it up. Comptroller and Auditor General setting out the details of that. The NAO is going to carry out a study of IPSA, Mr Leigh: Will the Minister assure that House that and the report will be produced before the summer when all this excellent work has been done and the recess. Committee makes its recommendations, the Government An interesting fact of which Members should be —I know that he cannot give any absolute promises—will aware is that the NAO is going to survey all serving seek to give us a fair wind so that we can implement Members of Parliament asking about their experience them? of IPSA and the expenses scheme. It is moving quite swiftly on the study. It is going to send out questionnaires Mr Harper: As with all reports from Committees of this coming Monday—16 May—allowing us a fortnight this House, the Government will look carefully at the to respond before the Whit recess, and it has asked for recommendations. I do not think that my hon. Friend Government support in encouraging Members to would expect me, given that the Committee has not participate. I do not think, having listened to the debate, even been set up, let alone started its work, to give talked to several of my colleagues and heard what the assurances that the Government will carry out its every right hon. Member for Leeds Central said about his recommendation. The Government will of course study conversations with the parliamentary Labour party, its recommendations. If its recommendations are about that Members will need much encouragement to send process, the scheme and how IPSA operates, they will back their responses. They should take this opportunity be for IPSA to consider. Only if they are recommendations to focus on how well the scheme is working, including for legislative change will they be for the Government to value for money and ease of use, so that the NAO can recognise. Every Member who has spoken in this debate take that into account. has confirmed that they are in favour of an independent and transparent scheme for paying our costs. Clearly, Helen Jones: It is encouraging to hear that the NAO even if Members thought that there were issues, they will survey Members. Will the NAO’s value-for-money would not immediately want the Government to rush audit include the cost of the vast amount of time spent into legislating. The right hon. Member for Leeds Central by Members and their staff doing work that was previously said wisely that when this House legislates on such done elsewhere? matters in haste, it often comes to repent it. 1403 Review of Parliamentary Standards 12 MAY 2011 Review of Parliamentary Standards 1404 Act 2009 Act 2009 [Mr Harper] Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes the position very clear. A structure has been set up with the Speaker’s The Government will look carefully at the considerations Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards that the Committee makes, and I hope that IPSA will Authority, which heard evidence from IPSA this week look carefully at them. If the review is carried out in and questioned it about its estimate. More work is being that spirit, I think that it will be very productive. done to deal with the hon. Gentleman’s point about cost-effectiveness and IPSA’s budget to ensure that at Mr Andrew Smith: I want to underline the importance this difficult time for public expenditure, IPSA is as of the point that the Minister has just made. Will he efficient and cost-effective as possible. However, it would assure us that the Government’s response will scrupulously be a mistake if we immediately leapt away from an and absolutely uphold the independence of IPSA? independent, transparent system, which is what the Government, the Opposition, and every Member who has spoken in this debate supports. We cannot have an Mr Harper: Yes; I have said that several times and it is independent system and simultaneously give it instructions important. Although this House has many new Members, to on how to do its job. it is important that we remember why we got to this position. We have to ensure that we move things forward, The Government look forward to the Committee’s and focus on independence and transparency. We have work and give a commitment that we will look at its had debates recently on our pay, and the consideration recommendations with great care. I will obviously not of our pay will be moved across to IPSA in the not-too- make any commitments about what we will do until we distant future. Its independence is important so that have seen the report. The Committee should do a people have confidence. The Committee, when it is set thorough job and we look forward to its report. We also up, will have to remember that the recommendations it look forward to seeing what the NAO has to say. I think makes about the scheme and the operation of the that that is a sensible way forward. On that basis, the scheme will be made to IPSA. Government are very relaxed about the motion in the name of the hon. Member for Windsor.

Mr Charles Walker: Does the Minister accept that 2.8 pm when we legislate in haste, as we did in 2009, such legislation sometimes has to be revisited and amended Adam Afriyie: I am delighted that the Committee is with the benefit of hindsight? being set up. I expressed an interest in that Committee. It is time for us to have a calm, careful look at the Mr Harper: I made a distinction in my remarks. 2009 Act, as amended in 2010. I hope that all hon. Clearly, if the Committee, or indeed the National Audit Members, in a non-partisan fashion, will support me Office, makes recommendations about value for money and the House in establishing this Committee. We must and cost-effectiveness in the way IPSA operates, IPSA ensure that the review is thorough, that it is consistent will pay attention to them, as with all its recommendations. with decisions that have been made, and that the It may be that the Committee makes recommendations recommendations are robust in defence of the taxpayer about legislative change. However, we do not want to go and in the pursuit of openness and accountability for back to a system in which the Government—heaven Members. Above all, we must ensure that this place and forbid—or the House start to micro-manage the details parliamentary democracy function correctly, and that of the scheme. We have an independent system with the schemes that are put in place for Members support transparency, and it is important that we stick with that. the work that they do and, preferably, are a lot less The Committee needs to bear that in mind. There will costly than they are at present. I urge Members to be two important audiences for what the Committee support the motion. recommends. In the same way that we should not legislate Question put and agreed to. in haste, we should not re-legislate in haste and change Ordered, things further. The Committee needs to bear that in That it be an instruction to the Committee on Members’ mind when it considers this matter, and should not Allowances established under Standing Order No. 152G (Committee immediately leap to the conclusion that we have to on Members’ Allowances) that it review the operation of the change the entire structure of the system. Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 and make recommendations, giving due consideration to ensuring: Mr Leigh: There is a third audience: the taxpayer. (a) value for money for taxpayers; Ultimately, nobody is independent of the House of (b) accountability; Commons, because the House of Commons is not for (c) public confidence in Parliament; us, but for the people—we represent the people and the (d) the ability of Members to fulfil their duties effectively; taxpayer. If serious recommendations are made and (e) fairness for less well-off Members and those with families; IPSA ignores them, the House of Commons has a right and to vote on its estimates and to reduce the amount it (f) that Members are not deterred from submitting legitimate spends on administration. claims. 1405 12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1406

Fisheries imposed on them by politicians. To add insult to injury, those laws are supposed to be about conservation. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Before I call Zac Goldsmith, may I suggest that I am minded to Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am very glad to hear increase the time limit to 10 minutes, or possibly 12 minutes, what the hon. Gentleman says about fishermen, because depending on how long the opening speeches last? Scottish fishermen in particular have spent a great deal of time and effort to try to have measures introduced to minimise discards. However, the current CFP works 2.10 pm against them in many ways. Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I beg to move, Zac Goldsmith: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Fishermen all around our coast are trying That this House welcomes the Fish Fight campaign; and calls on the Government to vote against proposed reforms of the EU very hard to avoid this appalling waste, and I have yet Common Fisheries Policy unless they implement an ecosystems-based to meet a fisherman who supports the current rules, so approach to fisheries management, end discards in relation to all I echo what he says. fish and shellfish with derogation only for species proven to have a As all Members will know, reform of the CFP is high survival rate on discarding, require that all fish and shellfish complicated and hugely contentious, but whatever reforms are harvested at sustainable levels by 2015, ensure the involvement of fishers and other stakeholders in decision-making processes are agreed, they must include a discard ban. We know and enable the UK to introduce higher standards of management that there are alternatives. For example, we could replace and conservation in respect of all vessels fishing within its territorial landing quotas with catch quotas so that by-catch that waters, taking into particular account vessel size and environmental would otherwise be discarded had to be landed. The impact. UK has already been piloting a scheme for cod involving The motion has been tabled my hon. Friends the six vessels in England and 17 in Scotland, and results so Members for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), far suggest that it is working. Discards of cod are down for Clacton (Mr Carswell) and for St Ives (Andrew to, I believe, between 1% and 7%. In addition, fishermen George), the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North are using more selective gear and managing to catch (Joan Walley) and myself. I thank the Backbench Business more valuable fish. Committee for allowing us an opportunity to have this very important debate. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I entirely support the The motion is about the scandal of fish discards. Up hon. Gentleman’s point. I do not wish to sound pedantic, to half the fish caught in the North sea are thrown back but I hope he agrees that when we talk about fish into the water either dead or dying, as a direct consequence discards, we are primarily talking about the discard of of perverse EU common fisheries policy rules. Members dead fish. There are many fisheries in which the poor will know that there was an overwhelming public reaction fish, although they are no doubt traumatised, can be following Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall’s Fish Fight slipped back into the sea. Many of them are juveniles campaign. More than 600,000 people signed petitions and capable of further growth. calling for an end to discards, and many of them wrote to their Member of Parliament calling for immediate Zac Goldsmith: I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s action. Their concerns are clearly mirrored here in point, and in fact the motion suggests a Parliament, where the second most supported early-day “derogation only for species proven to have a high survival rate on motion since the general election calls for a discard ban. discarding”, In addition, we have a Minister responsible for fisheries so that would include the type of catch that he mentions. and a Prime Minister who have both recognised the In addition to the pilots in our own waters, a discard absurdity of the current rules. ban has been operating since 1987 in Norway, where The time is right for a debate of this type because over-quota or unwanted species are landed for a guaranteed CFP negotiations are at a crucial stage. The European minimum value and sold to the fishmeal industry, with Commission is to make formal proposals in June or the proceeds used to reinvest in and support the fishing July, and decisions are to be taken some time in October, industry. To make a discard ban easier, we will have to so now is our chance to give the Government a mandate do everything we can to help fishermen access and use to take the strongest possible line in those negotiations. more selective gear so that they can avoid the unwanted It is difficult to know exactly how many fish are being fish in the first place. thrown away, because records are not kept and discards Consumers also have a clear role. A significant percentage are not monitored. However, the EU estimates that of fish are discarded because there is no market for in the North sea, between 40% and 60% of the total them, and the Government can boost that market through catch is discarded. The research of the Department for their vast procurement programme. We spend £2 billion Environment, Food and Rural Affairs more or less each year on food for the wider public sector, and that is backs up that figure. In other UK fisheries, the total is an obvious tool that the Government can use. However, probably even higher. For instance, in the west of Scotland there are obviously limits to what a Government can do area, the Scottish Government believe that as much as to shape a fashion, and it is worth mentioning non- 90% of the total cod catch is discarded. Partly because Government initiatives such as “Hugh’s Mackerel Mission”, of that horrendous and mind-boggling waste, the European which is intended to help stimulate new markets for less Commission’s own scientific advisers estimate that popular species. It is a valuable campaign, and I urge 72% of assessed EU species are now overfished. Members to support it. It is grossly unfair that so often the fishermen get the Discards are the most visible flaw in the CFP regime, blame for that madness, because most of the discards but they are only part of the problem. In addition, the are the inevitable and unavoidable consequence of decisions motion calls for radical decentralisation, and I wish 1407 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1408

[Zac Goldsmith] which number fewer than 1,500. It is staggeringly unfair, and if we were able to organise ourselves in the way that briefly to focus on that. One of the key demands from we chose within those 12 miles, we would be able to our fishing communities, and in particular from the recognise the madness of that system in law. under-10 metre fleet, is that we assert our control over It is an obvious observation that the smaller vessels what are wrongly described as our sovereign waters—the are restricted in where they can go and what damage 12 nautical miles surrounding our coastline. I say “wrongly” they can do, simply because of their size. The tools that because whereas the British Government can legally they use do not compare with those available to the impose whatever rules and regulations they want within industrial factory fishing vessels, some of which have those waters, from six to 12 miles out those rules will lines that would stretch from Parliament to Brighton, apply only to British vessels. It is clear that higher and purse seine nets that are big enough to swallow two standards are a good thing, but only if they are fair and millennium domes—which is a nice thought in some we have an even playing field. That is categorically not respects. the case in our waters. Whereas the interests of the smaller fishing communities For example, in 2004 the UK banned pair-trawling are necessarily aligned with conservationists and consumers, for bass within 12 miles of the south-west coast of the tools of destruction used by the mega-trawlers are England, to protect dolphins and porpoises. Although fundamentally incompatible with any kind of sustainable our own fishermen adhered to the law, the ban did future. That has finally been recognised at EU level, in absolutely nothing to prevent French and Spanish trawlers word if not in deed. The new EU Fisheries Commissioner, from continuing to catch bass in those waters, which Maria Damanaki, has said: was both wrong and unfair. If those rights for foreign vessels are to be retained, it seems to me that they “We…believe, based on scientific information, that small-scale fisheries are more sustainable and have a lower environmental should come with an absolute and non-negotiable obligation footprint…Small-scale fisheries are also…more friendly to to adhere to our own rules. That is why the motion employment, and this is a key issue. We also recognise that demands, among other things, that any reforms of the small-scale fisheries are very important for the survival of coastal CFP must communities, for their identity, culture, history and way of life.” “enable the UK to introduce higher standards of management Hear, hear to that, but let us see that finally translated and conservation in respect of all vessels fishing within its territorial into law. It is time for a clear and forceful policy waters”. distinction between the interests of the small-scale, That is an absolutely fundamental issue. If we reassert more traditional fisherman, and large-scale operations. our control over those waters we will not only provide welcome relief for our smaller boats against the onslaught Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Is it possible for us of the factory fishing vessels, but we will be able to to have small-scale fishing out to 12 miles, and to ban establish an intelligent, ecosystem-based management factory fishing within, or am I being slightly naive in system and ensure the health of our fisheries indefinitely. this modern age? Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Does the hon. Gentleman feel that it was a Zac Goldsmith: I can only tell my hon. Friend that I mistake almost 40 years ago when the fishing grounds would like to see a system biased in favour of the were used as a bargaining chip for entering the European small-scale, traditional fisherman, but that is an academic Economic Community, as it then was? What will he do discussion until we reassert our control over those 12 miles. to ensure that his Government reverse that and give us When we have done that, we can raise standards. Lobby 200-mile control rather than 12-mile control? groups that represent the fishermen who use smaller vessels are very much in support of his message. Zac Goldsmith: The hon. Gentleman has anticipated my concluding remarks, so I will ask him to hold on for Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Does a few moments. my hon. Friend agree with me about the current restrictions If we were able to reassert control over our waters, on the 6 and 12-mile limits? The 0 to 6-mile limit is we would also be able to set the rules on science. With restricted to UK fishermen only, but in the 6 to 12-mile the active involvement of those who depend more than zone, we share access with vessels from member states anyone else on the viability and health of our marine that have historical fishing rights. environment—the fishermen themselves—we would be able to get the policy right. That would also allow us to Zac Goldsmith: My hon. Friend makes an accurate do something even more important—to recognise in observation. That was exactly my point in my opening law and in our regulatory regime, finally, the difference remarks. The zone between 6 and 12 miles is described between smaller, traditional fishing vessels and their as sovereign or territorial waters, but we are unable to giant industrial competitors. It is an absolute mystery to apply our rules to foreign vessels, which is deeply unfair. me why successive Governments have always chosen to I know that she will speak on that issue with much view the latter, the so-called fishing lobby, as the true greater experience than I could ever hope for. voice of fishermen. More than three quarters of the UK fleet is made up Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): I of vessels of 10 metres and under, which represent congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this measure about 65% of full-time employment. Under the previous before the House. Like his constituency, my constituency Administration, the 5,000 or so 10-metre and under can hardly be described as coastal, but we have both vessels were given just 4% of the national quota, compared had a large amount of correspondence on this subject. I with the staggering 96% that was given to bigger boats, believe that that is informed not only by concern for the 1409 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1410 environment and our fishing industry but by an instinctive It is my contention that it is impossible to deal dislike of wasting food, which is very deep in the adequately with the problem of discards as long as the national psyche. CFP remains, because it is the major cause of discards.

Zac Goldsmith: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Mr MacNeil: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is In normal circumstances reform of the CFP would be aware of a European consultation paper on the CFP. regarded as a nerdy issue, of interest to very few, but The paper admitted the failure of the CFP and that the fish discards have caught the public’s imagination, for areas where it worked were those under national control. all the reasons that he identifies. No one likes the idea of Surely if people want the CFP to continue, they should waste, and no one welcomes the obliteration of our allow national control to 199 miles, and apply the CFP marine environment. People also instinctively recognise between 199 and 200 miles—a minimal ribbon. The that this is also about fairness. CFP has failed and will continue to do so, but there are I shall conclude shortly, because I know that there is no milestones by which we can correct the CFP in great demand among hon. Members to speak. For all future. We will bumble on for years with the CFP unless Ted Heath’s “pure brilliance”—his words, not mine, European Governments get their acts together and get as no one will be surprised to hear—he was wrong to rid of it. surrender our fishing rights as a price worth paying for our entry into the European Economic Community. I Austin Mitchell: I hope that that becomes part of absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan Scottish National party policy and that it is implemented an Iar (Mr MacNeil) about that. However, we have an by the new SNP Government in Edinburgh—it certainly opportunity to empower our brilliant fisheries Minister needs to be. I hereby renew my application to become to right some of those historical wrongs. We can end the SNP fisheries spokesman. My previous applications discards, restore control over that key 12-mile zone, and over the years have been consummately rejected. set rules that allow both our fishing communities and The important point is that the CFP allocates catches our marine environment to survive and flourish. I strongly by quota to fishing vessels in mixed fishing grounds, urge all hon. Members to support the motion. which waters around the British coast are. As long as we control catches by quotas, there will always be discards, Several hon. Members rose— because fisherman who put to sea for haddock or cod will catch species that are not in their quotas. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I should let the House know that the amendments in Mr MacNeil: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the name of the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan one other main problem with the CFP is the single-species (Dr Whiteford) have been selected. She may move them stipulation, which often applies to the species that are later. most under threat? That causes distortions in the catching Before I call Mr Austin Mitchell, I remind the House of other species and leads to discards. There are better that I have extended the limit to 12 minutes. models than the EU model, such as those in Norway, Iceland and the Faroes. The CFP model is the worst of 2.24 pm the lot. That is why those countries will have nothing to do with Europe. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) Austin Mitchell: I agree, absolutely—this speech is both on his record on conservation issues and on securing becoming a duet between me and the Scottish National this important debate. It is marvellous that the grumbles party, which is an interesting state of affairs. The problem and grievances of Members about the Independent that the hon. Gentleman points to is that simplistic Parliamentary Standards Authority have subsided so solutions will not work. The problem with Hugh Fearnley- much that we have time for a full-length debate on this Whittingstall’s proposals is that they are simplistic. The matter. I hope that all the hon. Members for inland EU has responded to them with another simplistic fishing ports who are round about me in the Chamber solution, which will not work either. It took the Norwegians are gathering to give us their ports’ views on the CFP. 20 years to develop their techniques, and they did it in Fishing rarely gets such an opportunity for a serious very different fisheries, with an emphasis on conserving debate. We are usually squeezed in at the end of another the young, immature fish. Norway’s job has therefore serious discussion, but today we have time, and I hope been much easier, but it has taken it 20 years to eliminate all fishing Members use it. discards. We have had 10 years of working to reduce Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall certainly did a useful discards, in which they have been reduced by 50%. That and important job, but we should draw attention to the has happened partly, it has to be said, as a result of iniquities of the CFP, which causes the problem of decommissioning, but also because of other measures, discards in the first place. The CFP puts marine wildlife, such as square-mesh panels, which were developed by seaweed and all forms of sea life into the European the industry as a means of conservation. constitution. It is the first constitution to include seaweed, marine life, algae and all the other things. That is a great Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Does my hon. achievement in constitution making: “We hold these Friend agree that the Norwegians’ use of temporary truths to be self-evident. Marine life has a right to be real-time closures of areas when by-catch becomes excessive part of the European constitution, to be dealt with only has served as an incentive for fishermen to use more by European vessels!” That is Stalinism at sea—the last selective gear? Does he also agree that selling fish caught vestige of the Stalinist state—and it is being imposed illegally, without quota, through fishermen’s sales on the waters around Britain, where it has been most organisations—where the fishermen are entitled to only damaging. 20% of the revenue to cover the costs, thereby avoiding 1411 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1412

[Barry Gardiner] knowingly handed power down to the nation states—or, in the case of fishing, to the regional advisory councils. wastage and maintaining incentives to use selective gear The North sea RAC is doing a splendid job. If the by channelling profits back into fisheries—has been a power to manage stocks was conceded to it, it could key measure in achieving what he describes? eliminate discards. However, it is not doing that because in the final analysis, the EU will never hand over the Austin Mitchell: I agree, absolutely. We have a lot to necessary powers to allow the RACs or nation states to learn from the Norwegians, but the point is that the deal with the problem adequately. In those situations, Norwegians control their own waters in the 200-mile discarding will continue because, under a discard ban, limit around Norway, just as we should control the what is a fisherman who catches fish that are not on his 200-mile limit—or the median line—around the British quota supposed to do with them? It is inevitable that he coast, but we do not. Therefore, we cannot enforce such will chuck them overboard, if he can do so unobserved. measures. That is the problem with all these arguments. We cannot monitor every ship by satellite or closed-circuit The television programmes that Hugh Fearnley- television; that is just impossible. So this is an impossible Whittingstall did were fantastic. The great innovation—the plan and it will not work. great gimmick—of landing discards at Hastings and That is why I was loth to give my support to the throwing them to the crowd on the beach, because early-day motion. There is a continuous conflict between landing them would have been illegal, was marvellous, the conservationists, whose aims I admire, and the because people took those fish home and cooked them. needs of commercial fishing. We see this in the marine I wrote to Fearnley-Whittingstall and suggested that he conservation areas. There is now an argument to make should hire a cruiser and follow the fishing fleet around, them areas in which there is either no fishing or very picking up the discards and serving them as expensive restricted fishing, but we must not turn the waters meals to a wealthy clientele on the North sea coast. around the British coast into a patchwork quilt, with That kind of experiment would have been useful. However, some areas where fisherman can catch and some where his solution is simplistic; therefore, it will not work. they cannot, or with different quotas for different areas Following Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall’s pressure on involving limits on species. It is appalling that there is a fisheries policy—on which I again congratulate him—the proposal to ban fishing in the experimental areas that EU has put forward another simplistic solution. What are being set up. We cannot do that. it is doing—I suspect rather cynically—is setting out the problem, throwing it back to the nation states and Barry Gardiner: Does my hon. Friend acknowledge telling them to solve it with a ban on discards, which that the 2006 reorganisation of the Manguson Stevens will not work and cannot work. The Minister cannot Act in the US required the end of over-fishing by 2010? solve the problem, so we are in deadlock. The EU In fact, the National Marine Fisheries Service has now proposes measures that will not work and forces them heralded the fact that that has taken place in US waters. on the nation states, which cannot enforce them because That policy’s success was due to the requirement for of the common fisheries policy, and nothing happens, new annual catch limits in every fishery, and the which is likely to remain the outcome. establishment of strict scientific guidelines on the limits The British reduction of discards by more than of sustainability, within which annual catch limits could 50% over 10 years was achieved through square-mesh be set. panels, video observation of the fishermen, closing grounds in-season and cod recovery plans, which were Austin Mitchell: That is so. We have set up our marine submitted by the fishermen and approved by Department conservation areas, and I support them, but I do not for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. They were all support them as a means of restricting the opportunities painstaking, laborious techniques, but they have worked. for fishing. That is the only way to do it, not through a simplistic I suppose that I had better bring my remarks to a ban, because fishermen will continue to discard. conclusion, enthusiastic as I am to go on for hours, preventing all the other Members who want to raise Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): There have been matters from doing so. I shall simply say that the fishing lots of European ideas to enable the cod recovery plans. industry has the greatest and the closest interest in However, on many occasions scientists put forward proper conservation, because it has an interest in the regulations and suggestions when fishermen were saying sustainability of stocks. It wants the stocks to be there that there were schools upon schools of cod in the sea. to hand on to the next generation of fishermen. That is Therefore, there is perhaps a difference between the why it was always important for us to have 200-mile scientist and the fisherman when it comes to who knows limits to protect our fishing, in the way that Norway, best. Iceland, New Zealand, Australia, America, Canada and many other nations have been able to do. We Austin Mitchell: That is certainly true, and again, it cannot do that now, however, because Ted Heath foolishly illustrates the difficulties that we face. One attempt that handed these powers over, just like that, without argument, Europe has made—the cod ban—has proved disastrous to Europe. The fishing industry wants sustainable catching for enforcement and protecting stocks, not to mention as well as conservation measures, and it is the only body avoiding discards. That is control from the centre. What that can enforce them and ensure that they work, because we need in the EU now is a policy to address that, yet it is in the interests of the fishermen to do so. power is being taken away from the Council—at least we have an opportunity to put up a fight against any Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Although the industry proposals in the Council, and to bargain and improve might have the desire to be involved in conservation our position in negotiations—and transferred to the measures, would the hon. Gentleman agree that, as a Commission. However, the commissioners have never result of the quotas and the ridiculous policy on discards, 1413 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1414 there is no incentive for fishermen to take that long-term unless and until there is buy-in from the fishermen. I view? Anything we can do to align the stewardship attended one of the Finding Sanctuary consultations incentives with the incentives for the industry would be with my husband, and we were asked to give details of extremely welcome. where the fishermen worked so that the marine protected areas would not prevent them from earning. I am Austin Mitchell: I agree. That is a very important shocked to be told by those very same fishermen today point, and well put—said he, unctuously. This comes that those very areas are now identified for closure or back to my point that the only way of enforcing these restriction. measures is if the industry enforces them itself, because Socio-economics must be a major factor when marine it is the only one who has such an interest in them. At environmental measures are introduced. The discarding the moment, the regulations work in a contrary direction, of fish is a wicked waste of nutrition. I congratulate but if they could work with the grain of the industry, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall on bringing the issue to and if the industry could be involved in formulating the the attention of the public and to that of the European measures, we could get a proper, effective conservation Commission. In the early 1990s, south-west fishermen measure that would work. That is the aim, and we covered Royal parade in Plymouth with plaice to illustrate should not look for measures from Europe. We should the waste caused by the quota, but 20 years on we are aim for a handing down of power to the industry, so as still talking about the problem. There are anomalies to to involve it in creating sustainability and pursuing its a discard ban. Lobster and crab survive capture. Crab own interests. pots are not size-sensitive, yet if all the babies were landed, it would lead to the extinction of the species. 2.39 pm I think that 2015 is a realistic target to ensure we fish Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): For the sustainably. British fishermen do not intentionally set second time today, I declare a special interest as the out to catch baby fish; they continually adapt their nets custodian of an under-10 metre commercial trawler, with square mesh panels and separator grids to avoid although she is not fishing at present. May I also thank catching small fish or the wrong species. I understand all hon. Members for the support and kindness they that only two days ago discussions at a meeting north of have shown me following Neil’s death? It is a great the border centred around introducing a trial of a net to comfort to me and my children that so many people reduce discards in the nephrops fishery. I have been told have been thinking of us. that it would take only half a day to adapt an existing I am very grateful to the Backbench Business Committee nephrops net to this design. Fishermen cannot avoid and to my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park capturing unwanted fish and, in my constituency, they (Zac Goldsmith) for securing this debate. Europe’s fish sometimes find their nets full of undersized red gurnards. stocks are shared out according to Council regulation Those are non-pressure stock and, according to the 2371/2002, which must be reviewed by 31 December 2012. Marine Conservation Society, the data have shown an This is the third review we have seen. I will not dwell on indication of their stability in recent years. We need to the history, although I will go back over a little of it. In find a use for these fish, however. 1972, the UK accession to the European Economic Scientists and environmentalists will often talk about Community agreed equal access to a common resource. fish without considering the fishermen. Many people In 1976, the UK declared a 200-mile limit or median forget that a fishing skipper needs expertise in a number line, even though we had by then ceded control of of fields: engineering, fish biology, navigation and weather fisheries to the EEC. In 1983, the total allowable catch— forecasting, as well as the usual requirements for running TAC—and quota system was agreed, along with the a small business. Imagine how soul destroying it is to principle of relative stability, which is a mechanism of tow gear for hours, haul in a net and find the cod-end sharing out the European TAC among the member full of the wrong species, then throw them back and states according to their historical record of fishing. return to port with a massive fuel bill and no money to That agreement was reviewed in 1992 and the fishing pay for it! It angers me when I hear scientists dismiss industry was looking for some change, but it never out of hand the fishermen’s assessment of the stocks. came. In 2002, we were given a promise of change, but The fishermen—and some fisherwomen; we have at still TACs and quotas continued, with this Minister’s least one in Cornwall—are experts and should be treated Department and, more recently, devolved Administrations as equals. responsible for the domestic quota management. So much Let me move on to deal with fishing within territorial regulation has been heaped on fishermen over the past waters. According to paragraph 2 of article 17 of the 40 years that is it any wonder UK fishermen feel they basic regulation, fishing activity is restricted in waters have been served a very bad deal? I agree with their view. up to 12 miles from the baseline under the sovereignty There are several parts to this motion. An ecosystems- or jurisdiction of member states to local fishermen or based approach to fisheries management is sensible, those from other member states with historic rights—until and I am pleased the Minister is already looking at the end of 2012 when the limits that have been in place marine protected areas. However, I have grave concerns for 30 years could be abolished. that despite in excess of £4 million being spent since I believe that abolition of this protection would be a 2009 on consultation, my local fishermen in Looe and move too far. We have a referendum lock in place for Polperro feel that the information that they have supplied new EU treaties, so why not have a referendum if the has been completely ignored by Finding Sanctuary and protection of our sovereign territorial waters is threatened? Natural England. Scientists, environmentalists and I believe the 12-mile limit should be reserved for small fishermen should work together, but to make this work inshore UK vessels that are unable to migrate to fishing fishermen must be confident that they are equal partners. grounds further from their home ports. These vessels I hope that the Minister will confirm that no marine support coastal communities. Small vessels—even small protected area will be imposed upon the south-west trawlers that operate with a single trawl, many fitted 1415 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1416

[Sheryll Murray] I assure Members that I have tried a variety of fish in my time. Perhaps at this point I should pay tribute to with rockhopper foot ropes and vented trawl doors to my local fishermen. When my husband came home with avoid damaging the sea bed—have a lower impact on a fish for me, it was usually a damaged fish that he could the marine environment than more powerful vessels or not put on the market for sale. Since his death I have vessels towing two nets at the same time. received carrier bags full of fish, and I now have a huge Under 10-metre vessels have been disadvantaged by amount in my freezer. I thank the fishermen in my the UK system. The underestimation of the quota came constituency for considering my family in that way. to light under the last Government, who failed to resolve Several assumptions have been made on page 13 of the problem. We now find that the very vessels that the impact assessment that accompanies the recently caused the least amount of damage to the stocks are published consultation document. May I ask my hon. struggling to survive. Friend the Minister whether his Department has conducted a sensitivity analysis to test the effect of those assumptions Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I praise my on under-10-metre vessels? hon. Friend not just for the knowledge and expertise Let me end by thanking my hon. Friend for the way she brings to this debate, but for the dignified way in in which he has approached his brief. Having been which she has spoken. I speak as an MP for landlocked involved in fisheries for almost 30 years, I have dealt area, and we are lucky that a number of fresh fish sellers with quite a number of fisheries Ministers, and it is come daily into my local villages in Colne Valley and really refreshing to have a Minister who cares about the West Yorkshire. We also have Fairtrade shops, so we marine environment, fish stocks, and—most important know what kind of chocolate or coffee to buy. Will my to me—the fishermen themselves. I wish him well in the hon. Friend advise my constituents on what kind of negotiations over the coming months, and hope that he accreditation marks they should look out for if they can secure a deal in the Council to secure the real want to make a knowledgeable purchase of sustainable change for which the industry has been calling since fish products? 1983. I hope that all Members will join me in supporting the motion, and that the Minister will have the backing Sheryll Murray: Yes, the Marine Conservation Society of the House in seeking the outcome that we all want accredits species of fish caught in an environmentally to see. friendly way—pole fishing for tuna, for example, or mackerel handlining, which is particularly important in 2.52 pm the south-west. I understand from a question put to the Minister earlier that there is cause for concern in Cornwall Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ about the cost of accreditation for mackerel handline Co-op): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for fishermen. South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), who brings a great deal of expertise and experience to this and other Andrew George: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for fisheries debates as well as to DEFRA parliamentary acknowledging the point I put in a question this morning. questions dealing with fisheries issues. I do not have the For Marine Stewardship Council accreditation, the same amount of personal experience. Indeed, I believe 200 Cornish fishermen who benefit from this particular that I was one of the only three Members who spoke fishery have to pay £12,000 plus VAT a year in registration during a fisheries debate in Westminster Hall in December costs. In addition, they see that a number of rather whose constituencies did not contain fishing fleets; the high-impact fishing methods used elsewhere have also others were the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac received accreditation, which they view as altogether Goldsmith) and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow downgrading the significance of MSC accreditation. North East (Mr Bain). I note that many more such Members are present Sheryll Murray: I thank my hon. Friend, who has today. That may demonstrate the power of television in great expertise in that subject. I applaud the way in focusing attention on the issue of discards, which those which the Minister is trying to resolve the matter, but who are involved in fisheries issues have been discussing ask him to take a further look at the impact assessment for many years. My hon. Friend the Member for Great accompanying the present consultation. Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) mentioned the action that has been taken by fishing fleets around the United Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Earlier in Kingdom. That too has been happening for many years, her speech, my hon. Friend mentioned the marketing of although it is in danger of being overlooked in the fish. Is it not important for us to seek innovative ways of debate. It is assumed that the issue has only just come to marketing them? The humble mackerel is really a tuna. public attention and that people are now suddenly Should it not be called the north Atlantic tuna? I know caring about it, but that is far from being the case. that in my hon. Friend’s constituency the pilchard is in I congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park reality a Cornish sardine and that the pollack has been on tabling the motion and initiating the debate. He has renamed a colin, but surely we should consider other hit on an issue that many of our constituents have innovative ways of putting unpopular fish on the slabs raised. However, we should not see dealing with discards of fishmongers, or at least into some form of fishfinger as a panacea for all the problems connected with fisheries, that people would want to eat. especially as we head towards the period from July onwards when the Minister will be discussing reform of Sheryll Murray: Marketing necessities in the United the common fisheries policy. Kingdom certainly include the need to attract the British In the fisheries debate in December, I said that about housewife to other species of fish as well as just the 10 years had passed since I worked at the former traditional cod and haddock. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and the 1417 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1418 same arguments are being made now as were made then is the fault not of the fishing fleets or the communities about the pressing need for reform of the common whose livelihoods depend on fishing, but of the regime. fisheries policy. It therefore needs to form part of the changes to that regime. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): My hon. Friend A move towards multi-year quotas, which the report says that there were calls for reform many years ago, but of the draft I read this morning seemed to suggest the nothing has substantively changed. I think we should Commission was proposing, is an important part of the abolish the CFP and return to having national fisheries, changes needed, so I encourage the Minister to keep it but in any case is it not time that we got rid of the word on his agenda for the negotiations. It is frustrating that “reform”? It is used by Front-Bench spokesperson after once a year in December people have to sit through the Front-Bench spokesperson as a get-out for doing nothing night to set the agenda for the next year, while industries in reality. and people—sometimes working in remote parts of the country—whose livelihoods depend on the industry are Tom Greatrex: I share some of my hon. Friend’s left not knowing what the position will be a few months frustrations about the lack of progress over many years. hence. That does not help them to make long-term Often in European discussions, issues get traded off decisions about investment in their vessels or about how against each other; certain issues that should have been to pursue their economic interests. We hope that the dealt with are not addressed, as other issues are seen as July discussions will provide an opportunity to address more pressing concerns. Fisheries have suffered as a this situation, because it is not healthy, sensible or result. Perhaps because I am slightly younger than my sustainable. hon. Friend, or perhaps because I am a little naive in Will the Minister bear it in mind that, as I said in this respect, I am more hopeful than he is that the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions earlier, documentation from the Commission and some of the we cannot have imposed on everybody an inflexible comments from the commissioner may give us cause to regime that is unable to adapt to local circumstances? think that we have a serious chance of getting decent There are a number of fisheries around the UK coast in reform of the CFP on this occasion. which fleets fish for mixed catches, and a strict regime We will certainly have further discussions on this on them could have unintended adverse consequences. topic, but it is right to offer the Minister who will We have to ensure therefore that there is the appropriate handle it in Europe our encouragement. We all understand flexibility for local management within whatever that the negotiations will be very complex, as they will improvements are made to the CFP. I share others’ involve various different states and lots of different frustrations with the CFP over recent years. Reform interests. One of the consequences of the increased remains necessary, and discards are part of the problem. interest in discards and other issues is that that has It is heartening that this issue is getting much more provoked the commissioner into saying some interesting attention than even a few months ago, but it is not the things recently. While just saying things is not necessarily only issue. CFP reform and moving to multi-year quotas an indication of future action, there is now an opportunity, and greater sustainability will be in the interests of and we would be foolish not to try to take it. everybody involved in the industry. They are also in the interests of a number of my constituents who have Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): Is it not recently discovered a shared interest in this issue because noteworthy that the commissioner has referred to the of the discards campaign. We need to ensure that this is sheer scale of the public outcry and demand for action at the forefront of the agenda in the negotiations that in the United Kingdom, and does that not point to the the Minister will take part in over the next few months. I need for us to sustain this admirable campaign—I sincerely wish him all the best in that, and I hope that congratulate all those who have been leading it—and to many Members will support him in taking this agenda broaden it to other European countries? forward. 3.3 pm Tom Greatrex: My right hon. Friend makes an important Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I do not intend point, which I alluded to when talking about the power to take up my full time allocation, as I want to make of the television documentary and the campaign. only a few points. First, however, I pay tribute to my I want to address the wider issue of CFP reform, as hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac well as discards. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan Goldsmith), who brought this motion before the House, (Dr Whiteford) must know a lot about the discards and to my hon. Friend the Member for South East issue, as some of the fleets in her constituency have Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), who spoke eloquently and tackled it in innovative ways, such as through employing informatively. She brings to the House the benefit of different nets. As that shows, fishing fleets have taken her and her family’s expertise and experience in Cornwall. action, but we must address discards within the context As many Members will know, Sherwood is a land-locked of the CFP as a whole, and there are other important constituency in the middle of Nottinghamshire, but my issues that will also need to be taken seriously in the constituents know what is right and what is wrong—and negotiations. this is clearly wrong. Only the European Union could The hon. Member for South East Cornwall and my dream up a policy under which trawlermen can bring hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby talked back to land only a small proportion of the fish they about sustainability. That is not solely the preserve of catch and must throw the rest overboard. It does not scientists and conservationists; sustainability is also make any sense ecologically, economically or morally. inherently in the interests of the fishing communities, We have to consider the reason for these discards, but for far too long they have, effectively, been given however. They are the result of the quota system introduced perverse incentives not to act in a sustainable way. That by the EU, which measures the fish brought back to 1419 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1420

[Mr Mark Spencer] important issue is the marine ecosystem and the duty and responsibility we all have to ensure that it can land. If possible, we should consider a system that function in an ethically sustainable way. We must put measures the fish as they are brought on to the boat, the environment at the heart of all that we do so that we rather than when they are landed back at the port. have a sustainable ecosystem for our marine waters. I am not an expert in fisheries, but the comparisons with agriculture strike me. Is it possible to consider a Mr Spencer: I absolutely agree and I pay tribute to system similar to the one that operated in the sugar the hon. Lady for her work as Chair of the Environmental industry with sugar beet, with an A, B and C quota. Audit Committee. We need to ensure that future generations The fish would still be taken to market, but their value have access to fish as part of their diet. Fish make up an would be much lower, to encourage them to be brought important part of the diet. Omega 3 is important and back to land. people need it as part of a healthy diet. Unless we get this right at this moment, fish stocks will not be available High grading is a system whereby fishermen go out, for future generations. That will be a sad indictment of catch the fish and try to retain those of the highest us as politicians and of the decisions that we make. value. That is causing a problem in that the small-value My final comments are to the general public. Consumers fish are thrown overboard. In terms of the fish stocks, are powerful and retailers listen to consumers. I encourage however, they are quite high value, because they are members of the public to challenge their retailers— often the young and small fish that will go on to grow supermarkets and fishmongers—to tell them how their and be the future stocks. fish is caught and harvested and how many discards Bob Stewart: This seems nonsensical to me. Surely we there are. Several retailers, including Sainsbury’s and cannot design a system whereby any fish are thrown Marks and Spencer, have done some work on making back. Once a fish is landed, it is damaged, and if it is good progress on this front. I hope that we can find a put back it will probably die. Whatever system we solution. design must be sensible, ensure that all fish are landed Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I would add Waitrose and aim to preserve fish stocks. We should not just put to that list of supermarkets, and I declare an interest some back and keep some. because I used to work for it. It sponsored a very good film called “The End of the Line”, and I would like to Mr Spencer: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. We note the brilliant work done by the person who put that also need to find new technologies, and there are film together in kicking off this discussion, ahead of the technologies available that sieve fish and pass the smaller Fish Fight campaign, several years ago. Will my hon. ones through the nets so that they are not captured. Friend join me, and other hon. Members I am sure, in encouraging consumers who feel strongly about this Kelvin Hopkins: I broadly support what the hon. issue, many of whom have written to us, to be part of Gentleman is saying, but is not the problem not that the solution, albeit a small part? If everyone who has individual fishing boats are catching too much fish but sent us an e-mail about this also changes their fish-buying that too many fishing boats are fishing? Overfishing can behaviour and attempts to influence their friends and be regulated only by a nation managing its own fishing family to change theirs, they can become a small part of waters and what is landed from the sea. That can be the solution just as much as by urging us to be part of it. achieved only with a national approach to fishing. Mr Spencer: I wholly agree with my hon. Friend. The Mr Spencer: The hon. Gentleman is correct. Standing Countryside Agency ran a campaign some time ago in this place, with history around us, I wonder what with the strapline “Eat the View”, which encouraged such characters as Drake and Nelson would have thought consumers to think about where their food came from of the way in which this country has given up its because its production directly affects the world around territorial rights to our waters. I cannot imagine a us. What we look at, what we see and how the world circumstance in which Drake would have tolerated French produces food is directly affected by how and where we and Spanish ships coming 12 miles off the shore of purchase food. I encourage consumers to hold retailers England and done nothing about it. to account—to challenge them and make sure that they We need to take control of our waters. All this are doing the right thing not only for us but for future happened when I was at primary school— generations and future food production in general.

Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): 3.11 pm With Drake? Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I am Mr Spencer: Of course, I was not at primary school very pleased to be a sponsor of the motion and I with Sir Francis Drake, but I was at primary school congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac when the European Union came up with the schemes Goldsmith) on introducing it. I congratulate him also that gave away our territorial rights to our waters. That on drafting a motion that mentions not only discards was a great shame, but we need to consider it in the light but what we fundamentally need to do to achieve the of where we find ourselves today. We need to consider aims and objectives that have been mentioned by my how we can take it back and find a system that is hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North morally acceptable and better for our oceans. (Joan Walley), among others, of putting sustainability and our environment first in our fisheries policy. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): As a sponsor Something that has always struck me about fisheries of the motion, I am grateful to have the opportunity to policy is that, whatever concerns one has about the put on the record how important I think it is. Surely the motives and actors involved, it resembles what is sometimes 1421 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1422 described in political theory discussions as the tragedy ecosystem-based fishing regime should be part of a new of the commons. If eight farms surround a common common fisheries policy. The question of discards is a and one farmer decides to keep pigs, which eat the world issue for fishing. The average estimate of discards beech mast from the common and get very fat, that from catches across the world is about 8%, but it is works very well for that rational farmer who does very certainly far worse in Europe, and that is a result, as we well. So then another rational farmer decides to keep have heard, of aspects of the CFP as it stands. Let us pigs too, thinking that those pigs will also get fat from consider the prawns and shrimps that we eat on our eating the beech mast on the common—and they do. table. For every tonne of shrimp that is landed, probably But then another two farmers also decide, quite rationally, 10 to 15 tonnes of fish have been discarded. That is to keep pigs, thinking that the beech mast comes every across the world—it is not just in Europe. It is unlikely year and is not a finite resource. After three or four that many people would accept a non-sustainably sourced more farmers have the same rational idea, all the pigs prawn on their plate if they were aware of the overwhelming die because there is not enough beech mast for them all. numbers that died to bring that prawn to their plate. Whatever the rational concerns of fishermen, fishing Discards are an important issue not only in the EU fleets and, indeed, policy makers about fish stocks and but across the world, not just because the fish could be how fisheries work, unless there are policies that go used but because we are damaging species by changing beyond relying on the rational instincts of people who breeding populations and ecosystems. are involved in these issues, and unless policies regulate The motion asks the UK Government to develop a the industry so that it is genuinely sustainable overall, package of measures beyond which it would be impossible tragedy will inevitably result. to go in considering whether to endorse a new EU It is commonplace to say that the world is extremely fisheries policy. overfished, but we also know that about 90% of all the cod that are caught have never had a chance to breed. I Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): The hon. Gentleman do not think that it requires a great deal of analysis to is absolutely right. I generally welcome the motion and recognise that if 90% of the breeding population is will be happy to support it, because it is absolutely removed before it can even begin to breed, that population necessary that we have a different approach to the will not last long. common fisheries policy. I wish to draw the House’s Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Only attention to a report produced many years ago by a a fortnight ago, I went across the Clyde to Arran to see House of Lords Committee, which highlighted the need at first hand a no-go area, which has already achieved to apply science and technology— results beyond everyone’s expectations. Does my hon. Friend agree that there will be plentiful fish, but only on Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. the basis that we allow breeding grounds where there is The hon. Gentleman is making an intervention. If he no fishing? wishes to draw the House’s attention to something, he can make a speech, but he cannot do so in an intervention, Dr Whitehead: My hon. Friend anticipates what I so we will leave it at that. was going to say. Any ecosystem-based fishing policy has to relate to precisely the question of no-fishing Dr Whitehead: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his areas. I appreciate the difficulties of enforcement and intervention. If he wishes to intervene again briefly, I the problems that that represents, but under the Marine will give way. and Coastal Access Act 2010 we have developed the potential of no-fishing areas and have already seen Neil Carmichael: That is extremely generous of the results in limited fishing areas, which create a haven hon. Gentleman. Does he agree that the House of where species can start to rebuild breeding stocks and Lords report was absolutely right to highlight the need then repopulate other areas. That is an important part for science and technology and draw our attention to of an eco-fishing analysis. the systems used in Norway? Zac Goldsmith: I want to echo that point. The most successful marine protected areas around the world are Dr Whitehead: The answer to that very pithy intervention protected with the co-operation of fishing communities, is yes. As we move towards a new EU fisheries policy, it and the biggest beneficiaries, beyond the fish, are fishermen is absolutely vital that we remove ourselves from all the themselves. In Costa Rica, Japan, Spain and so on, baggage of previous fisheries policies, which, since the there are lots of successful stories of marine protected first one was introduced in 1983, have never contained an areas, which have boosted fishermen’s income and increased environmental, conservation or sustainability component. biodiversity, which is crucial. A few things have been added—rather like adding Dolby sound to Philips cassettes to try to make them work Dr Whitehead: The hon. Gentleman underlines a better—but basically the policy was designed simply to point that I wish to emphasise. The tragedy of the stop countries squabbling about who should fish where. commons is a good example of regulated assistance for In relation to what I said about the tragedy of the rational activity that benefits people who are trying to commons, that merely divides the commons between make a living and acting rationally in so doing. With different people to carry on fishing in the same way, the assistance of those no-fishing zones, there are substantial rather than moving the debate forward. consequences beyond those zones, as there are benefits It is essential that we have an EU fisheries policy that for all concerned. is fit for purpose for the world we now live in. That is Yes, it is true that we should end discards, but if we the bottom line of the debate. That includes ending do so that will not by any means solve the problems. discards and introducing technology that ensures that The motion goes much further and proposes that an what is caught approximates most closely to what is 1423 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1424

[Dr Whitehead] We have inched our way forward, but the EU is like the United Nations when it comes to treaties: trying to intended to be caught, for example by using different reach an agreement across states requires tremendous nets. It includes looking at science to secure the best diplomacy as well as the campaigning skill and zeal of way forward for reducing the collateral consequences of many people in order to ensure that messages are properly fishing. It includes no-fish zones, which my hon. Friend understood, and that there are constructive proposals the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) referred as well as attacks on and criticisms of the existing to. scheme’s failures. It is an ambitious package of measures. Nevertheless, In order to make such changes, there are a number of it seems to me that it must be our starting point if we essential elements. First, we need to get right the are to have fisheries that are fit for the 21st century. If management framework of the common fisheries policy, we continue with fisheries that are fit for the 19th century, and it helps that we have moved the debate on in this the fish will have disappeared by the time we are not Chamber from where it was five or six years ago, when much further into the 21st century. I wish the Minister my beloved coalition colleagues used to take the rather good luck in his endeavours, which I hope will be different view that we could unilaterally withdraw from fruitful. It is encouraging to hear the difference in tone the policy. The whole debate became a legal argument, from the EU Commission, and if we can build on that which meant that we never had the right kind of tone, on the Fish Fight campaign, which I, too, congratulate environment— Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall on bringing to the public’s attention, and on the head of steam that has built up to Kelvin Hopkins: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? recognise that we have to make a step change, not a Andrew George: I will in a moment, because I know gradual change in fisheries policy, we will find that these that the hon. Gentleman is simply going to go back over debates have been worthwhile, and that the Minister’s that debate, and I just want to make this point to him. success in achieving such changes on behalf of Europe We did not have the environment that we needed to be will have been a triumph, indeed. able to have the kind of constructive debates that we 3.25 pm now have about the management, technical and other measures that are required and can be delivered, although Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is a great pleasure it takes some time. Because we could not legally withdraw to follow the hon. Member for Southampton, Test from the common fisheries policy while remaining in (Dr Whitehead), who was absolutely right to conclude the EU—it was technically impossible, and no one was by emphasising the importance, if we are to move proposing that we should withdraw entirely at that forward effectively, of reducing the need to discard any stage—we could not make that kind of progress. dead fish into the sea. We need a more sophisticated package of measures, rather than the same blunt response Sheryll Murray: Does my hon. Friend accept that six to the blunt instrument of quotas, which caused the years ago his party’s policy was one of regionalisation problem in the first place. of the common fisheries policy, and that securing the I congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park regional management that his party was promising was (Zac Goldsmith), before he leaves the Chamber for a no probably as extreme and impossible to deliver as national doubt well-deserved comfort break, on having brought control? forward the issue and on his persistence in raising it. I am proud to be a co-sponsor of the motion. Andrew George: Having given a warm tribute to my hon. Friend, I hate to find myself in significant disagreement I also pay warm tribute to my hon. Friend the Member with her. She is right that the Liberal Democrats have for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) for having argued that we should have a more regionalised basis brought her great knowledge to bear and, in significantly for the common fisheries policy; we have been consistent difficult circumstances, raising the issue. She has warm in that for the past 20 years. We have been not only support across the entire House for her contribution, consistent, but right and effective, in that the regional and the House very much appreciates her widely advisory councils have now been established. acknowledged knowledge and expertise on the subject. The view of the coalition Government—we are in I was born and brought up in west Cornwall in my complete agreement between the parties—is that we constituency. My family had a fishing boat, but my need to strengthen the regional advisory councils to father was primarily a market gardener, so I have some become regional management committees, in order to experience of the issue, although far less than my hon. give fishermen, along with other stakeholders, significant Friend. Many members of my family are engaged in the power. With that power comes responsibility. If the industry around the coast of my constituency, and I do fishermen themselves are making the decisions about my best to keep in contact with them in order to the future management of their stocks and the framework understand the pressures of the industry, but that certainly within which they operate, they will be the losers if they does not compare to my hon. Friend’s expertise. fail to make any progress. We have succeeded in that A number of essential elements are required to move fundamental principle. We are making that progress, the issue forward and to make significant progress in and the next reform will see us move the agenda forward addressing the concerns that have rightly been highlighted significantly and positively. as a result not of only the Fish Fight campaign but of the many other campaigns that went before and highlighted Sheryll Murray: My hon. Friend mentioned the regional precisely the same issues. I hope that the current process advisory councils. That is precisely what they are—advisory, of reform, and the debate about the reform, of the so no attention has to be paid to what they decide. That common fisheries policy leading to 2013 will be more is not exactly what I remember his party promising six successful than the last. years ago. 1425 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1426

Andrew George: This is turning into a more partisan Sheryll Murray: Will my hon. Friend give way? debate than I intended. Andrew George: I am sorry to say no to my hon. Kelvin Hopkins: It’s your own fault. Friend, but I will not give way again, because of the time. Andrew George: I know; I blame myself. I apologise I have mentioned decentralisation. My hon. Friend for having drawn myself into the very cul-de-sac that I the Member for South East Cornwall rightly emphasised was saying was the reason why we failed to make the importance of being able to extend the inshore progress before. management limit to 12 miles, so that only those with a As a result of the regional advisory councils, we were historical entitlement from other fishing nations can able to develop measures such as the Trevose ground fish between the 6 and 12-mile limits. closure, around the north coast of my constituency, It is important for fishermen and scientists to work each spring, which ensures that large numbers of vessels together. That is increasingly happening, and it works are not going in and plundering the stocks in that area. well in other European countries. In successful fishing We have seen a significant improvement in the health of nations such as Norway and Sweden, fishermen and several species following that measure. The proposal scientists work hand in glove all the time. That improves was originally made and instigated by local fishermen, efficiency and effectiveness, and they have developed but rolling it out required international agreement. techniques that have taken them ahead and left us behind. The more we encourage a culture that enables Barry Gardiner: I seek to bolster the hon. Gentleman’s fishermen and scientists to work together, the better it position, not to attack it. Does he agree that if we are to will be, because more trust will be established between have truly ecosystem-based management of stock, it the two, and there will be better assessment of stocks. must be based not on regional advisory councils but on We need to develop more effective methods of assessing regional management? stocks, because fishermen often rightly criticise the basis on which quota decisions are taken. Andrew George: The hon. Gentleman emphasises my A number of measures have been identified by point. We need to move from advice to management. Government and the fishing industry to help avoid We have a far too centralised common fisheries policy discards in the first place. I have mentioned management and, as we have been saying for decades, we need to methods such as temporary closures, for example in the decentralise it. Trevose ground, which can be very effective. In a question The fundamental problem, as many hon. Members to the Minister this morning, I mentioned the worrying have said, is the blunt instrument of the quota system. decision of the Cornish mackerel handliners not to As the hon. Member for Southampton, Test implied, pay their annual subscription of £12,000 to the Marine we do not want to replace that overnight with the blunt Stewardship Council because they do not believe that response of stopping all discards. That could have immediate the benefits of membership are justified by the cost. catastrophic consequences. We need to move to a situation They have also identified that another fishing method, where there is no need for discards of dead fish from the trawling and seining of mackerel in Scotland, is trawlers. accredited by the MSC. They question that, because theirs is low-impact fishing and other types have a much Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I want higher impact. to reinforce my hon. Friend’s point. In the Northumberland I look forward to the Minister’s response, although I coast fishery, where most of the boats are day boats that may not be able to stay, because I have a train to catch do not travel far out, an immediate ban on discards at 6 o’clock. The hon. Member for Richmond Park would prevent people from catching other species. At has secured a very important debate, and I hope that, the moment, a lot of haddock are being caught because whatever basis we do it on, we shall decentralise the they are plentiful. We could not stop all the boats from management of our fishery stocks. fishing completely because of the number of haddock they are catching. 3.40 pm Andrew George: I thank my right hon. Friend, who is Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): It is assiduous on this issue and helps to emphasise the a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for St Ives particular problems for day boats and inshore fisheries. (Andrew George). I congratulate the hon. Member for There is also a problem with the illogicality of throwing Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) not just on bringing back dead fish. No one quite understands the benefit of the debate before the House but on his wider ongoing that. The only possible scientific benefit is that other efforts to bring attention to the need for sustainability fish might feed on those fish. As all those involved in in international fisheries. I know that he has played a fisheries management will understand, the problem is key role in the Fish Fight campaign, bringing the scandal that to apply an effective fisheries management policy, of fish discards to public attention, and I commend him one needs to be able to distinguish between intended for his efforts. and unintended by-catch. Of course, a lot of the by-catch I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s recognition that is of a high marketable value. One has to query what under the current rules, fishermen have no choice but to would be the ultimate impact if one said, “We’ll stop all dump fish, and that the underlying problem is the discards and you can land and market all the fish you systemic failure of the common fisheries policy. I have catch, regardless, because we feel sorry for you and the privilege of representing some of the UK’s most don’t like to think of you throwing back dead fish.” We fishing-dependent communities, including Peterhead, cannot simply adopt, overnight, a ban on discards. Europe’s largest white fish port, and Fraserburgh, Europe’s 1427 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1428

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford] We need a greater role for regional management, and that is happening in fishing communities not only in leading shellfish port. Thousands of my constituents Scotland, but in other parts of the UK and Europe. We work in fishing-related jobs, whether onshore or offshore, also need longer-term management plans and meaningful in the processing sector and in other related industries. stakeholder involvement. That is the way forward, and I Fishing is at the heart of the identity of the communities hope the Government press that agenda in the ongoing around the Banffshire and Buchan coast, and for years and forthcoming European negotiations. people in those communities have expressed their anger, It is important to recognise that discarding is a frustration and exasperation with the CFP and the particularly big problem in mixed fisheries, where the disgrace of fish discards. Many of them have said to me rules and regulations simply do not reflect the reality of how glad they are to see the issue finally getting the the eco-system. widespread public attention that it so deserves. Having tabled my amendments, I wish to make it Sheryll Murray: The hon. Lady’s amendment (a) would clear that I am in full sympathy with the spirit behind insert “practices that encourage”, but does she not the motion and that the amendments are intended to agree that that would weaken the motion, because a strengthen its wording and reflect the fact that discards motion for an end to “practices that encourage” discards are a symptom rather than a source of the problems, is weaker than one that calls for an end to discards? If which rest squarely with the CFP. To end discards, we she genuinely wants a strong motion, she should accept need to end the practices that encourage discards, and that her words do not need to be included. there is no real shortcut to that. In no way do I want to dilute the strong signal that the motion and the debate Dr Whiteford: I do not accept that. I tried to make the will send, but I hope that we will foster a more nuanced point that discards are not the problem, but the symptom understanding of why discards occur and the range of of the problem. There is no simple solution to discards measures that are needed to end them. We have had and no one reason for them. positive signals from the European Commission that it Perhaps the best way to explain that is with concrete recognises the problem, but we need a lot more than examples. Fishermen who fish for prawn, megrim or rhetoric. We need practical solutions. monkfish off the west coast of Scotland are very likely to pick up by-catch of cod, haddock or whiting, which Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am one of is a protected stock. As the fish mix freely and do not those in the House who have campaigned long, and so understand the EU CFP, they do not present themselves far unsuccessfully, to ban the atrocious practice of the in the quantities and combinations required by the discard of dead fish, with all the waste involved. From catch composition rules. That is the nub of the argument. the hon. Lady’s experience of her important fishing That is only one reason for discarding, but it is by no community, can she tell us how much better it would be means the only reason. There are a range of reasons. for her local fishermen if the practice were banned? The most obvious one, perhaps, is lack of quota and the quota problems that hon. Members have highlighted. Dr Whiteford: It is very important that the UK Another common problem is that vessels can catch fish Government avoid having the Commission make a knee-jerk below the minimum landing size. There is a real danger response to the problem that could cause damage to in landing juvenile fish that have not yet reproduced. certain stocks and jeopardise the livelihoods of fishermen Creating a market for those fish would be detrimental who have already made huge sacrifices to put the industry to the long-term sustainability of the stock. That is why on a sustainable footing. We only have to go to the ports a blanket ban on discards is too simplistic a solution, of the north-east to see that the white fish fleet has although I do not wish to undermine or diminish the basically halved in the past 10 years, and that is a huge need to end or reduce discards. High grading—when sacrifice that the industry has made in order to be fish of no or low market value are discarded when sustainable. We need to avoid the same top-down solutions caught—is another good example of a damaging side that we have had from the EU hitherto, and we need effect of the current regulations. I shall not repeat the solutions that come from the industry itself and from points that other hon. Members have made on that. the communities that are most directly associated Just as there is no single reason for discards, there is with it. no single solution. Rather, a variety of measures are necessary. As the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Mr MacNeil: I understand that in 2009 the value of Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) pointed out, Scotland discards was about £33 million—about a third that of has been at the forefront of bringing to an end practices the white fish that was landed. However, since 2008 the that encourage discards. The Scottish Government, industry efforts that the Scottish National party Government and other stakeholders have worked together to make have taken have seen discards decline at a greater rate the Scottish fishing industry the most conservation than in any other country in the EU. conscious in the world. Currently, more than 50% of Scottish fisheries by value are now certified, or are in Dr Whiteford: I thank my hon. Friend for making the process of being certified, by the Marine Stewardship that point, and I hope to address it in my speech. Council, including 90% of the pelagic sector. Today’s debate gives us impetus for a different approach The hon. Member for St Ives addressed the issue of to fisheries management. We want to avoid, rather than smaller versus larger boats. There is no doubt that the replicate, the one-size-fits-nobody approach that has pelagic vessels in the Scottish fleet are huge, but they characterised the CFP for several decades and had a catch some of the most sustainable fish stocks in the devastating impact on the communities that I represent EU. In addition, those boats are tied up in port for and our marine environment. many weeks at a time and fish sustainably. They find a 1429 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1430 market for their fish and have a viable business, which is country in Europe to introduce such a scheme. When at the heart of a sustainable industry. This cannot be skippers encounter a high abundance of cod, they are about artisanal fishing only, because communities and encouraged to notify the Marine Directorate and the thousands of jobs in small businesses in local economies Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency, and the relevant depend on commercially and economically viable fishing. area is closed for three weeks at a time. That not only helps to protect the stocks, but helps to improve the Zac Goldsmith: I merely wanted to take the opportunity, accuracy of the science, which is often called into question. before the hon. Lady’s speech comes to an end, of Other important initiatives have included banning acknowledging her amendments and recognising why high grading in the North sea and the pelagic sector, she wants to include those words in the motion. I hope and the use of jigging machines in the pelagic sector to she agrees that the inclusion in the motion of the enable catches to be sampled before the nets are lowered. derogation, which was a last-minute inclusion, goes The catch quota has been mentioned. It was not without some way to assuring her that we are calling not for a controversy when it was first introduced, and many blanket ban on discards, but for a qualified ban. people were sceptical about it. However, although nobody would claim that it is a full solution to the problem in Dr Whiteford: I am extremely grateful to the hon. itself, applications to take part in the scheme are now Gentleman for clarifying that. I appreciate the efforts exceeding the places available. It is clear that its success that he has made to accommodate the practical issues is starting to win over those who doubted its efficacy in that face our fishermen, who are currently in difficult the early stages. economic times. The common fisheries policy is well past its sell-by date. Minor tinkering is no longer an option. We badly Andrew George: I am sure that there is nothing to be need a well-managed industry working on a regional gained from generating a dispute when fishermen share basis with long-term planning, and with fishermen—the the same objective of achieving a sustainable industry. key stakeholders in the industry—fully brought into the The amount of fish that Cornish mackerel hand-liners heart of the process. If Ministers can deliver such a catch is equivalent to what one purse seine can catch in system in the European Union, they will be performing just one week. There may be issues with by-catch or a great service to those who have for a long time called other things, but the hon. Lady will surely understand not just for an end to discards, but for an end to the people’s concerns about the impact of fishing on that system that causes them in the first place. I commend scale compared with the low impact of the hand-lining the motion to the House. method. 3.54 pm Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Dr Whiteford: Clearly that is fishing on a very different (Con): I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee scale. The fishermen whom I represent are providing an on selecting the motion and my hon. Friends the Members important food source. This is not an either/or issue; for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) and for South rather, there is room for everybody, small producers and East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) on convincing the large producers alike. There is enough to go round—enough Committee to discuss it. This has been a useful and fish in the sea, shall we say? helpful debate. I also welcome the decision to hold the I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Mike debate in the main Chamber. Many of us were concerned Park, the chief executive of the Scottish White Fish that the main fishing debate was not held here last Producers Association, who just last week was awarded December, and I hope that that can be put right later the WWF’s 2011 global award for conservation merit in this year. I also hope that the Government will support recognition of his efforts to promote sustainable fisheries. the motion, so that we can send a clear, unanimous I am sure that Members across the House will want to message on discards back to the European Commission. join me in congratulating Mr Park on receiving such a That would strengthen the hand of the Under-Secretary prestigious international award. It is a well-deserved of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my recognition of his leadership and a testament to the hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) efforts of everyone in the Scottish fleet who has worked when he negotiates with what I perceive to be our so hard to put the industry on a different and more European competitors. sustainable course. The award is also a tribute to the I have campaigned on the issue of bringing our work of WWF Scotland, which, in confounding the fishing waters back under UK national control, and on stereotypes of conservationists being pitted against the issue of discards, in my constituency for the past the interests of fishing communities, has engaged with 10 years as part of my campaign to sit on these green the industry constructively, recognising that sustainable Benches. During the past decade, I have spoken to the fisheries must be about sustainable livelihoods for fishermen academics at Plymouth university, the local fishing industry and sustainable, thriving fishing communities. I commend and the many experts who work in those agencies that WWF Scotland for that. make Plymouth one of the major marine scientific Some of the innovative and pioneering measures that research global players. They say that, by bringing UK have had such a dramatic and demonstrable effect in waters back under national control, we can conserve reducing discards in Scotland offer practical ways forward fishing stocks and potentially discourage the large Russian in the wider European context. The use of selective and other foreign factory ships and industrial trawlers fishing gear is perhaps the most obvious way to reduce that come into our waters and do so much damage to unwanted by-catch, and is a key way to prevent discards. our fish stocks and our fishing industry. Since 2007, a voluntary system of real-time closures has I want at this stage to pay a real tribute to those been in operation in Scottish waters as a means of people who, as the nursery rhyme goes, “put the little protecting concentrations of cod. Scotland was the first fishes on our little dishes”. Fishing is one of the most 1431 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1432

[Oliver Colvile] to the CFP was a last-minute act; the six countries of France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg and dangerous industries in our country. Our fishermen go Italy put it in at the last moment. This country was so to sea each day, in all kinds of weather, day and night, keen to join the European Common Market, as it was in winter and summer, to put Britain’s No. 1 traditional then, that Geoffrey Rippon, who was leading the whole signature dish on our plates. It is ironic that, only debate and our negotiations with our European competitors, recently, the House has been served a very real reminder agreed that we would sign up, much to their surprise. At of just how dangerous fishing is. I want to express my the time, few envisaged that Austria, which I remind own personal tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Members has no coast, would also have the South East Cornwall, whose husband died in such opportunity to vote on the CFP when it joined the tragic circumstances a few weeks ago. I also want to European Union in 1994. thank my hon. Friend the Minister for coming to a packed funeral, where the local fishing communities on Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman makes a classic, both sides of the Tamar river came together to pay tremendous point: Austria has a say but Scotland does tribute to one of our top fishermen. The Minister’s not. Does he understand why I might be a Scottish attendance made a real impact, and may I take this nationalist? opportunity to thank him for buying me a drink afterwards as well? Oliver Colvile: I do not, as it happens. What I will say However, I do not need to be reminded that sacrifices to the hon. Gentleman is that this situation becomes a such as Neil Murray’s are a regular occurrence among bargaining tool for other bits of policy which can be the peninsula’s fishing communities. Anyone who walks played around with. down the Barbican in my constituency will see a large Over the last few days, I have been inundated with wall covered in memorials to Plymouth fishermen who e-mails and letters from people calling on me to support were killed trying to feed us on a regular basis. The last this motion and Channel 4’s Fish Fight campaign, and I time I went out on a boat, it was shortly after a force 7 suspect that a large number of other hon. Members gale and I have to admit that I was a little bit ill on have too. I give my support very enthusiastically. The several occasions. I learned that anyone who is able to idea that fishermen, who do such a dangerous job and get their boots off in time once they have fallen overboard are not particularly well paid, are fined for landing fish will probably survive for about three minutes before which do not fit a specific regulation and are thrown almost certainly dying either by drowning or of the back into the water, is a total scandal. I welcome the cold. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will speak Government’s commitment to fight for changes to the to our hon. Friends in the Department for Transport to size of nets, but I hope that the Minister will press our ensure that no more lives will be lost because of policy European competitors to reform the CFP further, to changes relating to our coastguards. allow us to decide which fish are taken out of our seas I am not going to pretend that I am as well informed and who takes them out, and to stop this discarding on this issue as others, including my very good and hon. policy. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall, who has demonstrated her excellent understanding of the issues 4.2 pm that face the industry. I am aware, however, that fishing Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to is a totemic issue in the south-west, and that it focuses speak in the House on this issue, and I commend and attitudes towards our membership of the EU. One of thank the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac the biggest mistakes that Britain made in joining the Goldsmith) for securing the debate. Fishing is a very European common market in the first place was to sign important factor to my constituency and although I up to the common fisheries policy. It was designed to extended this invitation to the Minister last year, I again make European fishing grounds a common resource by invite him to visit the fishermen in Portavogie to get a giving access to all member states. better idea of what that means. I am sure that he will be anxious to take up that invitation and I look forward to Mr MacNeil: I hear what the hon. Gentleman is his visit. saying about the initial mistake, but surely that mistake As we know, the fishing industry might not be a big has been compounded, decade after decade, by successive contributor to the gross national product, but it has a Conservative, Labour and coalition Governments who big effect on some villages. Back in 1985, 260,000 fishermen have done absolutely nothing to correct the error that in the European Union caught some 8 million tonnes of was made almost 40 years ago. fish, and at that time, more fish were imported than exported. Things had changed by 2007, in that the catch Oliver Colvile: I do not disagree, but I hope that we was down and the number of people involved in the now have an opportunity to turn the tide as far as that fishing industry had reduced—that was a concern. The matter is concerned. EU fleet has 97,000 vessels of varying sizes. Fish farming The stated aim of the common fisheries policy is to produced a further 1 million tonnes of fish and shellfish help to conserve fish stocks, but I believe that in the and it employed another 85,000 people. So fishing is current form it is a wasteful policy which damages the clearly an important sector in parts of the United environment and our fishing industry. It determines Kingdom—it certainly is in the area that I represent. the amount of fish that each national fleet can catch. I commend the hon. Member for South East Cornwall Employment in the industry has declined dramatically, (Sheryll Murray), who is no longer in her place, on especially here in the United Kingdom, and, despite making a valuable contribution to the debate. She has reforms, fish stocks have continued to fall. I have always many friends in Northern Ireland and she is oft in our understood that the requirement for Britain to sign up thoughts and oft in our prayers. Fishing represents no 1433 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1434 more than 10% of local employment in any region of is close to my heart. It is a pleasure to be here today to the EU, but in some areas, including the one I represent, speak and co-operate with my English, Scots and Welsh it is a very important factor. Fishing features highly in counterparts to ensure that this unfair practice, which the employment available in my area and in the village does not allow our fishermen to catch our fish in our of Portavogie, so it is important that Community funds sea, is brought to a close. This is a United Kingdom have been made available to fishing as a means of notice of motion, representing all the regions of the encouraging regional development. UK. In my opinion, the Irish sea has fish enough for I also commend the hon. Member for Banff and our boats—an opinion backed up by the Fish Producers Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on the amendments she tabled Organisation as well by as the Trawlermen’s Association. and I am glad that they have been selected, because they The Minister will, I know, take this matter on board, would add to the motion and they make a valuable put the work in and stand up tall to ensure that that the contribution. fishing industry within the Province will not be subjected Fresh fish sales have fallen, while demand for processed to a process that will mean no fishing industry at all in fish and prepared meals is growing. There has also been five years’ time as a result of European regulations. a shift towards more supermarket sales rather than Something bred into people in our fishing villages will restaurant sales. Employment has fallen over this period, no longer be an option due to EU interference. That is mainly due, in my opinion, to European policy. That is what some of the fishermen are telling me. why I am particularly pleased to speak in the debate. We need a sustainable fishing industry.When I contacted Rather than there being a fall in availability or demand, one fish producer organisation, its representative reiterated it is quite clear that the demand remains. to me that quayside prices, increasing overheads—especially The EU is the world’s second largest fishing power fuel costs, to which a new “green” tax has recently after China. I put a question about China to a DEFRA contributed another 2p a litre—as well as the plethora Minister this morning. China seems to be batting up of fishing regulations all challenge fishing vessel operators fish all over the world, putting pressure on our own and are leading fishermen at least to consider throwing industry. More than 2 million tonnes of fish products in the towel. were exported in 2006, but more than 6 million tonnes One of the main problems faced in places like Portavogie have to be imported to meet EU needs. The competitiveness in my constituency is that most of the men worked on of the EU fish industry has also been affected by our the boats and the women worked in one or two fish own bureaucracy and the fact that our fishermen are factories, but those factories have recently closed. Things simply not allowed to fish, so cannot provide the fish are changing on the sea and on the land as well. Jobs are needed for the supermarkets. hard to find. Young people who relied on fishing in the With fuel costs so high, the end price is higher than past are now going into the civil service—which is also for countries not within the EU, which also compounds facing cuts. If the fishing industry has to bear any more the problem. We are constrained by red tape yet we have pressure, there is every chance that more fishermen will to compete with those who are able to fish as much as leave their boats. There comes a point at which the they want. It is hard to be competitive with people who sustainability of the industry comes into question. have freedom to expand their business as they desire In 2010, we in Northern Ireland ensured that we were and as the need dictates, as opposed to being so restricted. at the forefront of innovation. That has been seen in the delivery of state-of-the-art new pelagic trawlers that I recall that a Member spoke earlier about the Spanish represent the pinnacle of Europe’s fishing industry, in armada. Well, the Spanish come regularly to plunder the significant investments in the onshore processing the Irish seas and other coasts around Great Britain. It sector, and in investment in several more modern prawn sticks in the craw of many of us when we see that happening. trawlers. All that represents a vote of confidence in the It is clear that something must change—and that future of this home-grown, privately owned industry. something is the common fisheries policy. However, I am informed by local industry organisations that Europe does not see that the regulations need to be UK fisheries Ministers tell the industry that fisheries relaxed—indeed, it sees quite the opposite. It is so management decisions must be based on the best available concerned with the so-called “scientific” reports that science, and so they should. Although we continue to say there are no fish reserves that they will curb fishing have certain issues with the science, especially with completely, which will undoubtedly kill off any chance regard to the abundance of cod in the Irish sea, it is not of fishermen in Northern Ireland or elsewhere in the so much the science that presents us with a problem as United Kingdom being able to make a living. The EU the European Commission’s interpretation of it. Many wants to cut the size of fleets and the time fishermen of the Commission’s TAC proposals have less to do spend at sea. It is important to try to get a balance. with negative science than with the delivery of a political The Commission says there are still too many vessels aspiration. In the Irish sea, the science states that stock chasing too few fish, and that ecological sustainability has increased by 8% in the past two years. must take precedence over economic or social factors. There are many other issues with which time does not In other words, just because a community has traditionally permit me to deal, such as cod recovery. What is clear, depended on fishing, it does not mean that it can however, is that the opinions of fishermen and fish continue to do so. That is key issue for me as the elected producers must be listened to and acted upon. I hope representative for Strangford. It is particularly hard to that the motion will bring that about. The actions of the take when I am consistently assured by fishermen that Faroe Islands and Iceland of late have shown that the they can see schools upon schools of fish in the sea, yet EU is not in control of fisheries. It must adopt a they are not allowed to touch them. sensible approach and take account of the views of I have spoken on this policy before, wearing other those who are on the seas every day and whose livelihood hats. I am a member of Ards borough council and a depends on stock replenishment. They know the seas member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, so this issue better than any flown-in scientist ever could. 1435 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1436

[Jim Shannon] It is clear that discarding must stop. We must end the practice of returning to the sea fish that will not survive. The long-term cod recovery regulation that was agreed Discarding fish is not only a moral and environmental in November 2008 contained a commitment to reviewing issue; it is a needless waste of valuable economic and the plan after three years. I ask the Minister to ensure food resources. It also results in considerable amounts that that review now begins. The industry was encouraged of data being lost to scientists, who are trying to calculate to hear recently from DEFRA officials that the review fish stocks accurately in order to inform fisheries should be “fundamental” in nature and should not, as management. the Commission has previously suggested, examine the As has been emphasised throughout our debate, implementation of the 2008 regulation. Such a fundamental discarding is not caused by bad behaviour by fishermen. review should be delivered as a matter of urgency, and I It has been forced upon them by a series of unworkable hope that the Minister will respond to that point when EU regulations. When calculating annual quotas, the he sums up the debate. European Commission assumes that a very large percentage Recent media coverage has highlighted concern about of the catch will be discarded back into the sea, but it the level of discards among European fishing fleets. Let has no idea of the actual proportion. Various estimates me stress that that concern is shared by locally based have been made, but they have always had a wide commercial fishermen. As other Members have pointed margin of error. Because the discards are not measured, out, they are not ignoring the problem by any means. we have no idea how much dead fish is thrown back into They want to sort it out: they want a balance as well. It the sea. European fisheries are currently regulated by should be borne in mind that much discarding is a result total allowable catches or TACs, but they do not in any of EU regulation. I have received numerous e-mails way put a cap on catches. They measure and place a cap from environmentalists and concerned constituents asking on landings of fish at port; what is measured is not the me to ensure that there is an end to the senseless waste amount of fish that are killed, but the amount of fish of fish and the ignoring of fishermen’s voices. As every landed at the port. The system therefore serves to Member has said today, it is a scandal, a shame and obscure the scandal of discards. immoral for fish to be thrown back into the sea when The vast majority of discarding occurs in mixed they could be used. fisheries. That is because the current regulations are While fishermen in other areas continue to explore unable to cope with mixed fisheries. The main control ways of reducing discards of cod and to monitor of activity is single-species TACs, but that is overlaid their positive results through, for instance, the CCTV with other, complicated regulations, such as catch and catch quota trials in the North Sea, Northern compositions, days at sea and effort control. These Ireland fishermen working with fisheries scientists have complicated regulations do not mirror the contents of delivered their own results, and, as other Members have the ecosystem. Fish do not swim around in shoals mentioned, the results are similar in Scotland. However, neatly made up of exactly the same proportions of the the work will not stop there. A project aimed at a different species as laid down by the Commission. The further reduction of discards of whiting and haddock is fish are not co-operative; they are caught in very different already being planned. Fishermen are clearly leading abundances and combinations from day to day. As a the charge, but the fear persists that the European result, the requirement to discard to meet the rules is Commission will interpret their results—together with created. the year-on-year reductions in landings of cod that are In pursuit of solutions, there has been a great deal of due to reductions in the amount of cod that fishermen innovation and experiment. The Scottish fishing industry are permitted to land by Europe—as evidence that has led the way, such as through the development of fewer and fewer cod are left in the Irish sea. Let us selective nets to let unwanted fish go and “real time ensure that the evidence base is in favour of fishermen closures” to avoid catching such fish in the first place. and what they do. Although a lot of good work has been done at the local The current policy is not good for fishermen or for level in many parts of Europe, what has been lacking the sea. It is long past time that the House and its are Commission initiatives to address the regulatory Members took decisive action to deal with the situation faults underlying the mixed fishery problem. and to secure the right of fishing folk to fish the sea, There is widespread agreement that regional control make their living and raise their families without the is the way forward. Central control from Brussels has unnecessary interference of the EU. I firmly support failed. The regional advisory councils or RACs are a the motion, and heartily congratulate the Members significant step in the right direction, but they are only a who have enabled us to debate it. I look forward to the first step. They must develop into decision-making bodies, Minister’s response, and to supporting him in Europe and common fisheries policy reforms must include allowing when he does his best for the fishing industry and the the current list of initiatives to be developed and translated United Kingdom. into local regulations that best fit local circumstances. All the stakeholders in European fisheries must strive 4.14 pm for that. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I congratulate We must have science-based, long-term management the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) plans that provide a secure and sustainable future for on tabling the motion, and congratulate the Backbench fishing communities throughout Europe and for the Business Committee on allowing it to be debated on the environment. The current regulations that force fishermen Floor of the House. Fishing is an important subject, working in a mixed fishery to discard must be changed, and it is important for us to debate it on the Floor of such as by allowing fishermen to match quotas with the House rather than, as happened last December, in catches through an improved, transparent system of Westminster Hall. quota transfers. 1437 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1438

If we have better regulation that is determined at a Kelvin Hopkins: Indeed. I was going to say that I more local level and science-based, long-term management agreed with every word of the hon. Gentleman’s speech. plans, we can make our fishing industry sustainable for It was a very good speech. I should also compliment the both fish and fishermen. If I may conclude by amending hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), a quote by a former eminent Member of this House, we who moved the motion, which I hope we can all must be tough on discards, and tough on the causes of support, and the hon. Member for South East Cornwall discards. (Sheryll Murray), who made a brave and wonderfully informative speech. I felt that I was being educated 4.19 pm about the fishing industry while listening to her. It is a rare privilege for us to have someone with her expertise Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure in the Chamber. to speak in this debate. Luton is land-locked and nowhere I believe that we are considering reform—we have near a fishery, but I have a passionate interest in and tried it before, and no doubt incremental changes will concern about fishing and fish stocks. Indeed, the first continue to be made—but we will not win the battle question I asked of the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s against overfishing until the CFP is history. As I have Question Time concerned the common fisheries policy—he said before in the Chamber, I think that the Government said that he had expected the question to come from his should give notice that at some point Britain will seek a side of the House, rather than mine. However, I have derogation from the CFP if it is not abandoned altogether. been pursuing unashamedly the abolition of the CFP, Our nation has possibly the largest coastline and fisheries and if not that, we should at least give notice that we in the EU, and decisions are being made about our plan to seek a derogation for Britain, because the fact is fishing industry and livelihoods by land-locked nations that our seas have been overfished. We have had possibly such as Hungary, the Czech Republic and Austria that millions of tonnes of discards—certainly hundreds of have no particular interest and can be easily bought off thousands. in any European Commission vote. It is impossible to monitor what is done by fishing vessels from other countries. The only way to overcome that problem is to get back Britain’s historic fishing Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): As a member of the waters within the 200-mile limit—the median line. British European Scrutiny Committee, does the hon. Gentleman vessels could then fish in those areas, French vessels not agree that as well as this having splendid motion it is could fish in French areas and Spanish vessels could equally important, whatever the consequences of the fish in Spanish areas. They could have their own fishing vote, that we ensure we apply our own sovereignty if the grounds the same as we do. The contrast, of course, is Government, the European Commission, the European with Norway, where there are no discards and no Union and the European Court of Justice are not overfishing, all vessels and landings are monitored and prepared to heed the message that the House sends out? there is no problem. It manages its fish stocks properly. We must assert our sovereignty and override the European legislation where necessary. Sheryll Murray: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that Norway does not have such mixed fisheries as we Kelvin Hopkins: I personally agree very strongly with do in UK waters, so the conservation measures that the the hon. Gentleman, but we might have some difficulty Norwegians pursue often would not work in the mixed persuading a majority of the House to agree with us. I fisheries in UK waters. believe that the European Commission and the European Union will not shift until they have the sense that Kelvin Hopkins: I defer to the hon. Lady, who obviously Britain is serious about wanting to abandon the common has an advantage over me in having knowledge of the fisheries policy or seek a derogation. detail of fishing. However, I am confident that if there was less fishing in British waters, there would not be a problem with shortages and overfishing, and that the Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): My need to disaggregate fishing would not be so great if hon. Friend will know that I am quite a strong pro- there were plenty of fish, no overfishing and no diminution European, but fishing gets me nearer to his camp than of fishing stocks. I might normally be. My constituency is right in the middle of England, nowhere near the sea, but my The general point, however, is that member states constituents care about this issue. They certainly care ought to be able to manage their own fishing waters and about discards and about the quality of the sea and of protect them from the depredations of other nations. I the fish in it. Why can we not get an agreement that have been reading in the Library that there is a multibillion works for this country within the European Union? Let pound industry in pirate fishing across the world. I am me remind my hon. Friend that before the European sure that we are a law-abiding country and fishermen Union existed, it was a total dog-eat-dog mess. It might know that their catches are monitored, but can we trust not have been dogfish, but it was dog eat dog and it was other nations to do the same even within the EU? There worse than it is now. is the suspicion that other nations do not monitor their landings and their catches like we do, and it would take a long time for me to be persuaded that some of those Kelvin Hopkins: Going back to what happened before nations do it as well as we do. the common fisheries policy might not be the best idea. We are now living in an age in which we are more Oliver Colvile: Is one of the problems not that although sensible about these things and I would like to think we are very good at imposing and policing regulation, that we would have an industry that was properly regulated places such as Spain are not as good because the by our Government on behalf of our consumers and regulators are some way away from the ports? our fishermen. 1439 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1440

Mr MacNeil: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond latest device from Europe to get their hands on the fish Park (Zac Goldsmith) on securing the debate along from our seas—I am speaking particularly of Scotland? with other hon. Members. I admit that I was not one of The internationally tradeable individual transferable those who signed the early-day motion because I do not quotas will mean the slow buying off of fishing rights sign early-day motions. There was a clause in it about for future generations by big industry fishing, which using enforced temporary closures to manage fisheries would mean that future generations on the Scottish of which I could not have approved because such practices coast might see fishing happening around the coast but have led to problems in my constituency, with the would have no right to go near it. This is one of the under-10 metre fleet lurching from crisis to crisis because most dangerous aspects of the approach, which is new of temporary closures here and there. I am delighted today from the European Union, and it must be resisted that this wonderful motion does not contain that clause, by all quarters of this House at all costs. so I can give my full support to the intentions behind it. It is fair to say that discards are a disgrace. My hon. Kelvin Hopkins: I agree absolutely with the hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) has Gentleman. I have the BBC news sheet in my hand, previously related to the House the success of Project which is headlined, “EU fisheries reform would ‘privatise 50% and I will not steal her thunder because I am sure oceans’.” Things will be handed over, no doubt, to she will speak about it again, but I wanted to say that we Spanish and French fishermen who will have long-term can learn from some really good examples around the quotas and who can do what they like outside our British isles of how to do something about discards. As control. the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) has This is not about nationalism. It is about every nation said, this is about addressing local regulations. Fishermen being responsible for managing its fisheries. The only in my part of the world often catch far more than the way to guarantee that they will be managed properly quota they are allowed but will land only what they are will be for each nation to know that it has to look after legally allowed to land. Sadly, the discards—the smaller and husband its own stocks and fishing industry. If fish—end up going back into the sea. Fishermen need people know that they can cheat by stealing fish from to secure the maximum price for their fish, so they pick other countries, possibly not even doing discards, doing only the best and the rest sadly go to waste. We need to secret landings and cheating the system, I have no get around that problem. I do not blame them for doing doubt that they will do it. that because that is their business and that is all they are allowed to do. Unlike during world war two when fish Just recently, the British public have shown themselves was the only major foodstuff that was not rationed, our to be strongly incensed by any kind of cheating. Members total allowable catch is going down nowadays. of the House, some of whom have suffered the penalties of the law, have known the anger of the British people. I I said I would keep my comments short, but I want to think that the British people can be just as angry about talk about the common fisheries policy. The hon. Member cheating on fishing, and the only way to overcome that for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) was right to suggest is to re-establish national fishing waters for all nations that we should have control of our fisheries. Constituents in the European Union and for each nation to manage find it very difficult to understand that countries with its own fishing stocks, its own fishing industries and the no sea or fishing whatever should have an equal voice to fishing boats that fish within those waters. that of the United Kingdom on the common fisheries policy. I wonder whether the Minister would consider Billions of pounds of fish have been lost to Britain. afresh working with colleagues in the European Union Being in the common fisheries policy has not only had and saying that the CFP does not work at all so we need an economic cost to Britain but has been an environmentally to start again. What matters is not the politics of fish damaging experience. One does not necessarily want to but the fish, fishermen and constituents. To that end, I push for a nationalistic view, but the reality is that we suggest that we should scrap the current Fisheries Council have been ripped off by the common fisheries policy and reconstitute it to include only countries with fishing and we have a massive balance of trade deficit with the fleets in the European Union. Frankly, if countries such rest of the European Union. I would like to think that as Austria can use their place on the Council as a the motion could go someway towards helping to redress bargaining chip for other European negotiations, that that balance. short changes our country. I am doing this not because I am a little Englander, or even a big Englander or a big Britisher. I care about fish Mr Sheerman: Is the hon. Lady seriously suggesting stocks, and I care about the fishing industry and about that we should take all international agreements, whether making sure that the marine environment is protected they are European or international—at a time of threat for the long term. The only way to do that is by having from global warming, when we need sustainable solutions countries manage their own fisheries. for our oceans and seas, which must be reached through co-operation—and say that everyone can do as they 4.29 pm like? Is she suggesting that we should say that Iceland can hunt whales and everyone else can catch what they Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Thank like? you for your patience with me, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was contributing to the debate on education in Dr Coffey: That is not what I am suggesting at all. I Westminster Hall, which I helped to secure, and being am suggesting that the artificial Fisheries Council is in two places at once is not an ability that I can making policy, but that some of the member states on it establish. I have enjoyed the debate that I have listened have no interest in fishing whatever and therefore simply to so far and I intend to read the report of it as soon as trade their votes for influence over other arrangements. it is available later tonight. I appreciate that my suggestions are radical, but is this 1441 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1442 not a debate for ideas? Of course, I am not the Minister—I sophisticated sonar to track the fish and extraordinarily am not the person who has to go to Brussels to do the advanced gear and nets to catch those fish. That is why negotiations—but if someone keeps walking down a this debate is important. street and falling into a hole and does not change their At the heart of the motion is the demand that CFP route they will for ever be trying to get out of the hole. reforms adopt Speaking for myself and other hon. Members present, I think that something we can do as new politicians is say “an ecosystems-based approach to fisheries management”. that if fisheries policy has not worked and stocks are Some people may misinterpret that as putting the benefit not recovering we should try something new. of the fish before the benefit of the fishers, but without I say to the hon. Member for Huddersfield sustainable fish stocks there is no sustainable fishing (Mr Sheerman) that rather than limiting ourselves to industry. The history of our coastline, sadly, bears working only with the European Union we should work witness to that, as fishing communities from Stonehaven with non-European Union countries—Iceland, Norway to Newcastle, from Grimsby to Cornwall, have declined or other neighbouring countries—to tackle the wider over the past century. challenges. I want to pay tribute to the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) for pressing the issue both inside Mr Sheerman rose— and outside the House, and to the GLOBE secretariat, whose work on a global oceans recovery strategy has Dr Coffey: I appreciate that other hon. Members been under way for the past two years as part of the wish to speak, so I am afraid that I will not cede the International Commission on Land Use Change and floor to the hon. Gentleman. Ecosystems, which I chair. I refer to my entry in the Let us develop the debate by considering what we can Register of Members’ Financial Interests in that regard. do locally.The creation of inshore fisheries and conservation The Minister has co-operated with the GLOBE authorities is a useful step in the right direction, but commission, and I am delighted that he will respond to they must take fishermen with them. I did a PhD in the debate. I am sure that he will wish to be constructive, chemistry, so I accept that evidence is available. Science as always. shows that if there is evidence, one can propose a theory Last night I attended the launch of Project Ocean at around it. Often, people have an argument about whether Selfridges. The Prince of Wales opened proceedings, that theory is right, and one must continually build followed by a private party attended by Elle Macpherson, evidence. An important part of that evidence should be the folk rock band Noah and the Whales—[HON.MEMBERS: the knowledge and understanding of the fishermen who “Whale!”] It is not my normal Wednesday evening fish those waters every day. It is frustrating when fishermen activity, and I have no doubt that I was invited only to say that there are plenty of fish out there, or they are add a bit of glamour to the event. How extraordinary told that they can fish for cod, when the cod were there that fish discards have now become so sexy. I pay tribute three or four months ago but it is now too late. to Selfridges and to the work of the Zoological Society Fishermen have to be involved, and science has to be of London. I pay particular tribute to the work of involved. Sadly, fish have become subject to politics. Professor Jonathan Baillie and Professor Alex Rogers Regrettably, every year we seem to have a crisis about of Oxford university, not only for the sound science that quotas, and I am pleased that my hon. Friend the they have brought to Project Ocean and their work on Minister fought the fight to get more fish for our CFP reform, but for helping to popularise it in this way. fishermen, so that our ever diminishing industry manages to stay alive for another season. I hope that we can end Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- this ridiculous quota swap and give fishermen a guarantee op): I am terribly disappointed that I was unable to see of a sustainable future. my hon. Friend adding glamour at the event he referred I was a little surprised by reports that fishermen are to. Would he give some message to my constituents, going to be paid to fish for plastic, rather than fish—that who are particularly concerned about discards, on how is one of the ideas coming from the European Union— Project Ocean will deal with that problem and what it which would be rather disheartening for our inshore can add? fleet. I will not give another analogy, but I imagine that the fishermen with whom I am in touch would say that Barry Gardiner: I am very pleased to do so. There are if all that they have to do is fish for plastic, they might three key areas of discards, which are often not well as well put their boats aside. understood: over-quota discards, which are calculated I shall bring my comments to a halt, because I believe to be about 22%; undersized discards, which are calculated that there are plenty of people who have great experience to be about 24%; and non-commercial discards, which of fishing. I do not pretend to do so—I speak only for a are calculated to be about 54% of discards. I will deal small number of fishermen in my constituency, but they with each of these in turn, but first I want to talk about are culturally and socially important. If the United the importance of the ecosystems-based approach. Kingdom loses the battle for fish, it will be a sad loss for The ecosystems-based approach is fundamental to our country. sustainable environmental management. It establishes a strategy for the management and sustainable use of 4.37 pm natural resources by considering them in the context of their role in the entire ecosystem. The current EU Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): One hundred common fisheries policy and the EU marine strategy and fifty years ago, in 1861, using wooden boats and framework directive already commit the EU, in principle, primitive technology, UK fishermen caught 12 to 15 times to this ecosystems-based approach. The tragedy is that more cod in the North sea than they do today with that has not been reflected in practice. 1443 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1444

[Barry Gardiner] throughout the year. The Government estimate that over-quota species account for about 22% of English True ecosystems-based fisheries management would and Welsh discards. require systemic reform through the introduction of a The introduction of catch quotas in place of the regionalised management framework. A regionalised current landing quotas would make fishers accountable management system within Europe would divide the for their total catch, rather than for what they land, EU fisheries into management regions according to thereby eliminating the legal catch and discard of over-quota ecosystems, rather than nations, as my hon. Friend the fish. The current CFP also prohibits the landing of Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) suggested. quota species below a certain minimum landing size— Unfortunately, fish do not carry passports about their MLS—to ensure that they are not caught before reaching person. They do not know when they are travelling maturity, thus preserving the reproductive capacity of from one nation’s waters into another’s. Therefore, one the stock. In practice, however, many under-sized fish must look at the ecosystem and not simply the national are still caught and simply discarded at sea. An estimated boundaries. 24% of discards are quota species below legal MLS, so too small to land. The introduction of minimum catch Kelvin Hopkins: My simple point is that nothing will sizes in place of minimum landing sizes has been successful happen in terms of the proper management of fisheries in Norway in incentivising the use of selective gear in without self-interest—the self-interest of the member fisheries and minimising the catch and mortality of states and of their fishing industries. If a simple regional under-sized fish. and scientific basis is used, that essential self-interest An estimated 54% of English and Welsh discards are will not be built into the system. of non-commercial species caught as by-catch. Stimulating the creation of new or stronger markets for under-utilised Barry Gardiner: I am glad that my hon. Friend makes sustainable species such as dab and coley in UK fisheries that point, because that is exactly what I wish to challenge. could result in the elimination of unnecessary waste, It seems to me that we can assure the fishing industry greater profits for fishers and a reduction in fishing and fishers that there is real self-interest in promoting pressure on other more popular and over-exploited this approach. species. We need to be careful, however, that that policy does not encourage the creation of markets for species Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Will the whose population could not support a sudden increase hon. Gentleman give way? in harvesting. There is currently no obligation to conduct regular Barry Gardiner: No, I am already pressed enough for stock assessments for most non-commercial species in time. EU waters, as they are not subject to quota restrictions, so there is little understanding of the impact that increased Certain decision-making powers would be devolved fishing of them would have on their stocks and on the to regional management bodies, in consultation with wider ecosystem. The first priority of any policy that local stakeholders, in order to tailor the application aims to eliminate discards and improve demand for of central policy objectives for EU fisheries to the under-utilised species, therefore, should be to mandate specifics of each ecosystem. A fully regionalised regular stock assessments for all species, with a view to management system would include the following introducing management plans, including catch quotas, features: quotas allocated on the basis of ecosystem for all species caught in EU fisheries. regions in order to manage fishing pressure according At the Johannesburg world summit on sustainable to the necessities of the different ecosystems; regular development in 2002, the EU committed to achieving a scientific assessment of all marine species, not just fish maximum sustainable yield for all fish stocks by 2015 at stocks, within a given eco-region to establish the impact the latest, but in 2010 it estimated that 72% of its of fishing on the ecosystem as a whole; quota allocation fisheries remained overfished, with 20% fished beyond on the basis of eco-regions with different licences used safe biological limits, risking the wholesale collapse of in different ecosystem regions and no transfers between those fisheries. the regions. The EU marine strategy framework directive requires The discards in the North sea are between 40% and that all EU fisheries achieve good environmental status 60% of total catch, while in other European fisheries, by 2020, which includes the attainment of sustainable such as that for west of Scotland cod, they can total as fishing levels for all stocks. The European Commission much as 90%. The vast majority of fish discarded requests scientific advice for the establishment of overboard of course die. In an effort to limit fishing to fisheries management plans on the basis of sustainability, sustainable levels, EU regulations under the common but the European Council is under no obligation to fisheries policy prohibit the landing of commercial species adhere to that advice when agreeing total annual quotas above a given annual quota. However, in practice this for stocks. The result is that the European Council often results in the discarding of thousands of tonnes of sets total allowable catch limits that are on average saleable fish—the over-quota discards—as fishers are 34% higher than the scientifically recommended sustainable forced to cast overboard their excess or non-target catch limits. before landing, so as not to contravene EU law. Ensuring that all fish and shellfish are harvested at The result is a policy that fails to prevent fish mortality sustainable levels is an absolute prerequisite of the above levels deemed biologically sustainable. That is a future profitability and survival of EU fisheries. By particular problem in mixed fisheries—the majority of requiring the delivery of that target by 2015, we will EU fisheries—where fishers will catch more than their ensure that the EU fulfils its international and domestic landing quota for one species as they continue fishing commitments to achieve sustainable fisheries and end for others that swim with it, in order to maintain fishing overfishing. 1445 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1446

A legal requirement to end overfishing of all fish and Several hon. Members rose— shellfish by 2015 will necessitate the following key measures: first, rendering scientific advice binding, thus preventing Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The quotas from exceeding biologically sustainable limits; wind-ups are going to start at half-past 5. Seven people and secondly, introducing stock assessments and wish to catch my eye, so if they speak for a shade under management plans for all fish and shellfish, including six minutes, that means that everybody will get in. I will non-commercial species that are currently unmanaged, rely on your generosity for that. I call Eric Ollerenshaw. in order to establish sustainable limits for harvesting. Co-management is an approach whereby Government 4.52 pm authorities involve local communities and other stakeholders in management decision making, monitoring and Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): surveillance. The approach aims to encourage co-operation Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will try to keep to my and a shared sense of responsibility, and it has been limit. shown to improve compliance with regulations as well I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the as to improve the effectiveness of management measures, Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) on securing because it draws upon community knowledge to address this debate, particularly for the way in which it has been local socio-economic and ecological issues. conducted and the experience that has been brought to The establishment of regional advisory councils is it. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal cited as a key success of the 2002 CFP reform, because (Dr Coffey), I do not claim to be an expert in this field, they have served as forums for stakeholders to inform but I do represent the town of Fleetwood. This year policy implementation at the regional level, but they marks 175 years since its foundation, and for all those have no decision-making powers. years it has been synonymous with the fishing industry. Small-scale and artisanal fishing represents a vital Indeed, in the 19th century Fleetwood was at the end of link between the industry and historical coastal fishing the west coast main line, principally to enable fish communities, and often utilises lower-impact methods— landed there to get to Billingsgate as fresh as possible. more environmentally sustainable methods of fishing Being new to the fish world, as I call it, I have had to that draw on local traditional knowledge. A future learn at first hand the stories and legends from fishermen. common fisheries policy must reverse the balance of Believe me, some of those are long and involved, but I incentives by allocating access rights to fisheries on the sat there listening patiently. As other hon. Members basis of environmental sustainability, so giving priority have said, the hurt that they feel at the tragedy that they to vessels that utilise selective gear and low-impact have endured through the devastation of their once-proud methods of fishing. By enabling the UK to introduce industry is very apparent. higher standards of management and conservation Fleetwood, more than most, has seen its fishing for UK and foreign fishing vessels within its inshore industry destroyed in the 20th century. The port is now fisheries, without recourse to the European Commission, down to a few dozen registered boats with perhaps two we would regain powers to determine and manage our or three boats landing fish, mainly shellfish. The crazy coastal marine ecosystems and the livelihoods that depend irony of the history of fishing in this country is illustrated on them. by the fact that Fleetwood’s success still lies in fish The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar processing. Hundreds of tonnes of fish now arrive in (Mr MacNeil) spoke of the importance of ITQs— Fleetwood by truck from every port in England because individual transferable quotas—and the problems that of the large scale of Fleetwood’s fish processors, which will arise from them. Under this proposal, which is are still on the docks, but the docks do not land any probably the most dramatic in impact of any EU proposal, more fresh fish. That is what we have come to. It is skippers would be guaranteed shares of national quotas difficult to explain the impact that this decline in fishing for periods of at least 15 years, which they could trade has had over the years on the morale of a town where among themselves—even, if the relevant national most people claim descent from the original dozen Government agrees, with fleets from other countries. fishing families around whom it developed. These intricacies This is already practised on a smaller scale in several go back years. Indeed, with the good advice of the hon. EU member states, including the UK, but it has been Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), for which taken much further in other countries. I am very grateful, I am still dealing with compensation A global survey published three years ago showed claims that go back to the Icelandic cod wars. that fisheries managed using ITQs were half as likely to Like other Members, I thank my hon. Friend the collapse as others, which is one of the reasons why the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) on Commission is so enthusiastic about them. However, the record for her advice. She has been unstinting in her the blanket nature of its proposals gives rise to serious help, and in sharing her knowledge and passion for the concerns, and I echo those that the hon. Gentleman subject. She has taught me a great deal. expressed. Ecologically, ITQs diminish overfishing and This debate is rightly focused on discards, an issue seek to protect the sustainability of fishing in the area that has united fishermen and the public like no other concerned, but experience shows that they can give rise issue in recent years. It is incredible that from primary to the privatisation of fisheries. That is a very serious school children through to politicians, everybody sees point, which the Minister has to take on board. the sense of the argument about the scale of the discarding, the moral condemnation of it, and the economic wrongs Mr MacNeil rose— it has created. As an ex-history teacher, I compare it to prohibition, because it is a policy that has been so Barry Gardiner: I have no more time left, so I cannot counter-productive in terms of its original aims that it give way to the hon. Gentleman. will go down in the history books. I fully support the 1447 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1448

[Eric Ollerenshaw] sign early-day motions, but I felt compelled to support his recent motion on fish discards, because the way in motion, given that discards in the North sea alone which we kill unnecessarily and throw back fish on an equate to some 500,000 to 800,000 tonnes a year. That industrial scale is an absolute scandal that, as many is waste on an incredible scale. Members have said, has continued for far too long. Discarding is also wrong because there appear to be We should recognise that this is not a new problem. solutions, and I am pleased that the Government have The environmental consequences of the common fisheries supported some of those. My hon. Friend the Member policy have been recognised and argued over for more for Richmond Park mentioned the pilots for cod quotas, than 20 years, as my hon. Friend the Member for South which have prevented discards. My hon. Friend the East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) said. I remember speaking Member for South East Cornwall mentioned the intricacies about the scandal of fish discards as long ago as 1999 of net size, which again have prevented discards. I have when I was a candidate for another party. looked at the 50% scheme in Brixham, which has received We should note, though, that some modest progress widespread praise. All those solutions have presented has been made over the past decade. The volume of fish incentives to fishermen, as conservation is in their interests. discarded was actually reduced from 2002 to 2008. I believe that this campaign has demonstrated, once However, with some estimates suggesting that we are and for all, that fishermen and the public understand still throwing away more than half of all the fish caught, the need for managed conservation. I hope that the it is clear that we are still only scratching the surface and success of the pilots and the public support will provide that significant changes are required. the Minister with backing when he goes to Brussels. He Three key factors are driving the practice of discards: might not achieve the scrapping of the common fisheries the lack of a market, the quota system and the problem policy, which many of us want, but he will now go of undersized fish. On the first of those, DEFRA armed with the support of this House and of a country estimates that more than half of all the fish that are united in a demand for real reform. discarded are those for which there is currently no As hon. Members have said, discards are just the tip market. That is not the fault of the CFP, but it is the of the iceberg of things that have wrecked the fishing largest single area in which we could make a difference. industry. Fishermen in my constituency are fighting for One of the most important outcomes of Hugh Fearnley- realistic compensation for the increasing areas of Whittingstall’s “Hugh’s Fish Fight” series was the call Morecambe bay being filled with wind turbines, with for, and the beginning of, the creation of demand for the support of the Department of Energy and Climate other fish species. When I recently visited Falfish, a fish Change. It has amazed me that there is no statutory processor in my constituency, it reported a significant compensation, and that every fisherman has to fight increase, for instance, in demand for pouting. Although individually for compensation. At the same time, as the far smaller than cod, it has a similar texture and can hon. Member for Great Grimsby reminded us, marine be used as a substitute. We all have a role to play in conservation zones are spreading, the Department for creating a market for currently unfashionable fish— Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is on the fishermen’s consumers by being more adventurous, the industry backs, fishermen are involved in consultation, and they and processors by doing more to market less popular are fighting for compensation and quotas. One sometimes fish and the Government through projects such as their wonders what time a fisherman has left actually to go Fishing for the Markets scheme. fishing, in between all the demands placed on them. The other causes of fish discards relate to the CFP. We are getting to the point where so many Departments DEFRA figures estimate that 22% of all discards are have a slice of our seas that perhaps we need a Secretary fish for which there is no quota, and that 24% are of State for the seas. Perhaps I would not be as radical undersized. I have to say that I think that last figure as my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal, but understates the problem, because it is calculated on something major needs to happen if we are to alter the weight rather than the number of fish. Addressing decline that we have seen, and the casual treatment, by those two problems is where we need meaningful change. previous Governments of all parties, of the great seas around us. My hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood As I have said, the problem with the CFP is that we (Mr Spencer) talked about farmers. I have always wondered have talked about it for a long time but nothing has how we can manage to protect the environment in changed. If one thing has really been clear over the past national parks successfully, and to sustain real business 20 years, it is that the most successful policy innovation in which farmers are a fundamental part of saving that has taken place when national Governments have been environment, when we cannot manage to do that out free to experiment with new ideas and approaches. We at sea. have a bit of a problem with the structure and culture of The Fish Fight has brought together fishermen, the EU, because it does not lend itself to an evidence-based processors, retailers, consumers and—dare I say it?— policy approach. All too often, policy development politicians of all parties, as we have seen today. Its becomes a mere negotiation and the outcome is a policy success may well be the signal that we can finally start based on the lowest common denominator rather than on the long road back to protecting one of our greatest one informed by the power of ideas. The EU is currently resources: the seas that make these islands to which we considering another round of CFP reform, and we will all belong. soon find out whether it is now fit for purpose or whether important issues such as fisheries policy require 4.58 pm a quality of thinking and reasoning that is simply George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I beyond institutions such as the EU. add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member Another problem is that a one-size-fits-all policy for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) on securing this cannot cover such a wide area. The hon. Member for debate on the important issue of fish discards. I rarely Brent North (Barry Gardiner) said that fish do not 1449 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1450 carry national passports or recognise national borders, All hon. Members understand the importance of fishing but they do not carry EU passports or recognise EU to our local economies, but I represent Brixham, which waters either. lands the highest-value catch in England. That represents more than £17 million for our local and national economy. Mr MacNeil: It is also misleading to talk as though That is real jobs, not just at sea but on land, and a very fish all behave in the same way. Iceland talks about valuable export market. migratory fish, straddling stocks and non-migratory I thank the fisheries Minister for his recent visit. He is fish, so the idea that all fish are the same is highly now aware of Project 50%, which is being carried out in misleading. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has Brixham, to which many hon. Members have paid given me the opportunity to make that point, because I tribute. I should like to recognise the work of Darren did not have a chance when the hon. Member for Brent Edwards, the net designer, and scientists at the Centre North (Barry Gardiner) was speaking. for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science. Shaun Gibbs, who presented the results of Project 50% George Eustice: I thank the hon. Gentleman, and I to Maria Damanaki, and other trawlermen, have fitted could not agree more. It is true that fish do not recognise cameras to their trawlers to monitor catches, so that we national waters, but it is important that we have a can get away from the existing quota system. They are tailored local solution to protect our ecosystems. We taking part in the International Council for the Exploration should not get bogged down in whether waters are of the Sea area 7e sole catch quota trial. national or European. That is why, like the hon. Member for Brent North, I am attracted to the idea of breaking I also recognise the work of south-west fish producers, up the current structure of the CFP and putting in place who are working with the Government through the a regionalised management system. It could retain the Fishing for the Markets project to look at how to common objectives of protecting the ecosystem, having achieve better sales for unusual fish, such as pout, sustainable fishing and minimising discards, but the whiting, gurnard and dragonet. I hesitate to give anyone delivery of those common objectives would vary in cooking advice—my family certainly do not miss my response to local realities. cooking back at home—but all one has to do with I wish to say a little about some of the conclusions gurnard is stick it in the oven with a bit of butter and that we can draw from successful experiments that other rosemary. Nothing else is required, and it is absolutely countries have come up with. First, Norway has found a delicious. I commend gurnard to the House! way of dealing with the discards caused by fish caught Fisherman in Brixham and surrounding areas have over quota by allowing fishermen to land those fish but made extensive efforts to reduce discards—all hon. paying them only a fraction of the market price. Let us Members will recognise that—but we can imagine their consider that. Secondly, Norway and Scotland have frustration. They have reduced their fishing effort and both had success with real-time closures, with areas taken part in a series of trials to reduce discards, at being closed to fishing when there is a problem with great personal cost, and improved the sustainability of excessive by-catch. That creates an incentive for the the mixed fishery in the English channel, only to find industry to use netting gear that reduces by-catch, so let that Dutch fly-draggers that have fished more than their us consider that, too. quotas and destroyed their fishing grounds in the North Thirdly, our fishermen in the south-west are involved sea are coming over and having the same impact in our in a really successful project, Project 50%, which has waters. That is extremely demoralising for our fishermen. brought together fishermen and scientists to develop The CFP is undoubtedly outdated and unsustainable, new fishing practices that have dramatically cut fish but we must be careful in how we implement measures discards. Let us consider that, too. Finally, Cornish on discards. I was reassured that the wording of the fisherman led the way by having the first no-take zone motion was altered so that we recognise that not all within European waters, so that there is a sanctuary for species that are thrown back into the sea die. My hon. spawning fish. We should also consider that. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll If we are serious about developing a sustainable Murray), who is very experienced, drew attention to the approach to fishing, we need to change the basis on fact that if we landed all the crab that we catch, crab which quota is allocated. Rather than simply basing it would become extinct, which is an important point. We on some historical formula or rights, we should reward must also recognise the efforts made in the lobster good fishing practices by giving the most sustainable fisheries, which now notch rather than land buried, fishermen the most quota. That could act as a powerful egg-bearing lobsters, which has greatly increased fish incentive. Those who adopt good fishing practices that stocks locally. Therefore, we need to be careful in how substantially reduce by-catch will be allocated more we talk about discarding, and look at all the alternative quota, as will producer organisations that are the most measures that have been outlined, which I hope the successful at creating markets for unfashionable fish Minister will consider. species, whereas producers who turn a blind eye to the I know that the Minister works tirelessly on behalf of need to reduce discards and continue as if nothing has our fishing industry, but we would also like to see some changed will face losing some of their quota. fairness. I am in the difficult position of representing If we adopt such solutions, we can improve the CFP both the under-10 and the over-10 metre fleets, which and dramatically reduce our fish discards. clearly have different needs, as we all recognise. However, if we are to have fairness, their efforts must not be undermined by foreign vessels. I am sure that all Members 5.6 pm would ask the Minister to press home the point in Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate Europe that this is the only way forward. However, I my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac know that many other Members wish to speak, so with Goldsmith) on his tireless efforts to reduce fish discards. that I will take my seat. 1451 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1452

5.10 pm Members with a lot of experience will recall that Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I, too, marine fisheries licences are required by all UK vessels congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Richmond fishing for profit. They were introduced in 1992 as a Park (Zac Goldsmith) and for South East Cornwall method of enforcing EU regulations for sustainable (Sheryll Murray) on securing this debate. May I also fisheries management. Captain Brigden and Carrick associate myself with the comments of my hon. Friend council made representations to the Government of the the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver day in 1993, and secured an exemption for boats under Colvile) about our hon. Friend the Member for South 10 metres fishing under sail or oar. This meant that such East Cornwall? boats would not require a marine fishing licence to fish, and the exemption covered the boats of the Truro oyster In the limited time available I would like to support fishery. Now, the EU is reviewing the exemptions that the part of the motion that talks about necessary reforms have been granted to the fishery, and possibly others. to the policy affecting small-scale fishermen. I would like to share with the House the example of a group of What would be the impact of ending the licence fishermen in my constituency which I hope will underline exemption for the Truro oyster fishery? Fishermen would all the valuable contributions that we have heard from have to meet the substantial one-off costs of applying across the House—something that, in itself, underlines for a marine fisheries licence. The cost depends on the the fact that we need to make more decisions here in the size of the vessel, and for the average 28-foot oyster UK about our fishing fleet. fishing boat, it would be about £4,500. This would be in addition to annual fees and local fees. This overhead I represent a maritime constituency. Ensuring that we would put many oyster fishermen out of business, so manage our marine environment and support sustainable this EU measure would have the perverse outcome of fishing is vital to me and my constituents. We have putting out of business some of the most highly skilled perhaps the most sustainable fishery in Cornwall, at the and sustainable fishermen in Europe. Fal river oyster fishery, which is officially known as the Port of Truro oyster fishery. It is the last oyster fishery Learning to fish for oysters by hand and under sail in Europe harvested under sail, by Europe’s last commercial takes many years to master. The fishermen work very sailing fleet. We have native oysters in the River Fal, hard in the winter and most have other seasonal work which have been harvested in more or less the same, during the rest of the year. In a good year, the fishery highly sustainable fashion, without the use of mechanical can provide a reasonable living for the experienced men power, for more than 500 years. who are prepared to put in the time and effort in all weathers in order to make a sustainable living. The Bylaws introduced by the Truro Corporation back in extra licence fees will put an end to centuries of oyster the 19th century protect the Fal’s beds from over- fishing on the Fal. exploitation by limiting harvesting to non-mechanical means. That means relying on wind and tide, with The renaissance of locally produced and traditional sail-powered working boats towing the dredges across foods has been a great source of satisfaction for many the beds in a fashion known as “drift”. Many of the historic people around the country. Locally grown food is also vessels used have been on and off the water for more healthier food. In October, Falmouth hosts the oyster than 150 years, and are used for fishing in the winter festival, which helps the whole community to celebrate and racing in the summer. Further up the river, hand-rowed our heritage and sense of place, as well as attracting punts are used with the same dredges. Any oyster that is tourists from all over the world. Just last year, Rick smaller than the statutory two and five-eighths of an Stein opened an oyster bar in Falmouth. So the oyster inch in diameter is discarded and returned to the river fishery makes a wider, significant contribution to the bed to grow on. After the oysters have been harvested, local economy of Falmouth and Cornwall, and contributes they are purified and sold all over the world. They are to the reputation of Cornwall as a producer of high-quality very popular in France, although more than 10,000 oysters food. I urge the Government to ensure that decisions are consumed during the immensely popular annual about the licensing of our small vessels are taken in this Falmouth oyster festival, which is held each autumn. country, to ensure the highest levels of environmental The number of licences issued by the Port of Truro protection and sustainable food production for our harbour authority fluctuates each year, but in the 2010-11 country. season, 45 licences were applied for by 32 separate people. There were 12 sailing boats and six punts fishing 5.17 pm over the past winter. A licence is needed for each dredge. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I The season runs from October to March, with fishing should like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for strictly limited to between 9 am and 3 pm each weekday, Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) for highlighting this and 9 am and 1 pm on Saturdays. The most recent important issue. For many years now, the common statistics show that during the 2009-10 season, some fisheries policy has blighted coastal towns such as those 750,000 million oysters were caught. in my constituency around Morecambe. It might surprise Typically, oysters are sold by fishermen to buyers at hon. Members to know that, although I represent a 25p an oyster. Buyers sell them on to shops, which sell seaside resort and coastal town, I have learned from them for about £1 an oyster. Despite the cost to hon. recent discussions with the Department for Environment, Members who enjoy eating oysters, the fishermen make Food and Rural Affairs that I represent very few fishermen. a modest income. I hope that hon. Members can see But let us be clear: my predecessors would have been that, through the measures taken in Cornwall, we have able to say that they represented hundreds, perhaps managed to keep this sustainable fishery. There is a even thousands, of them. This illustrates the economic proactive relationship between the harbour authority decimation of fishing that this policy has created, and, and the oyster fishery to manage and improve the even in communities like mine, it has been accepted. For nursery beds for future years. years we complained, in my view rightly, but our complaints 1453 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1454 fell on deaf ears in Brussels and we lost this important Thirdly, my hon. Friend the fisheries Minister has form of employment. We have now accepted this and launched his own consultation on the future management moved on. of the domestic fisheries in England. This contains However, my hon. Friend raises the important some positive proposals. It is encouraging that DEFRA environmental issue that remains outstanding. It would appears to accept that fishing stocks are a national be quite wrong to empty our coastal waters of fish resource and that no third parties have acquired any because of these quotas. It is so sad to see fishermen proprietorial rights. throwing tonnes of fish into the sea because it is illegal The final development since last autumn is that the to land them under EU rules. I do not blame the Lowestoft industry continues to decline. The fishermen fishermen themselves; they are trying to make a living are allowed to catch fewer fish; they have extra costs to against a difficult backdrop. I blame the common fisheries bear; and it is an increasingly difficult struggle for them policy and the European Commission. It is hard for to carry on. Only last month, the Europa café in the fish me to believe that the Commission is ignorant of the market, which has served breakfasts to fishermen for environmental vandalism that it has unleashed on our decades, was forced to close due to a continuing decline waters. The fact is that it does not even care. in business. Given that the EU does not want to make the situation It feels as if an ambulance is now on the way, but I better, it must fall to us in this country to do something worry about whether the patient will be alive when it about it. We must demand a significant reform or, reaches the scene of the accident. The sands of time are better still, the scrapping of the common fisheries policy. running out for Lowestoft fishermen. I support the Call me old fashioned, but I would like to go back to motion. It is important that none of us sits back and the time when only British and Irish vessels could fish in rests until a fishing regime that has almost destroyed the the Irish box. When that rule was abolished, Spanish British fishing industry is itself discarded and thrown industrial trawlers mounted their ruinous campaign overboard. against our fishing stocks—a campaign that has arguably moved to the coast of Africa and ruined the livelihoods Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con) rose— of fishermen in places such as Somalia. Many believe that that has turned Somali sailors to piracy. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): The hon. Gentleman will have to finish his speech at half-past 5. In summary, my view remains that the British fishing fleet has been treated badly. My community has lost an important industry, but we must not allow fish stocks to 5.22 pm be destroyed for future generations. I was proud to sign Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Thank the early-day motion tabled by my hon. Friend the you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am delighted to speak in this Member for Richmond Park, and I am delighted that debate; I could not get out of the Finance (No. 3) Bill this has become a debate for the whole House to participate Committee until 4 o’clock. I congratulate my hon. in. My sincere hope is that we stop this great environmental Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) crime before its effect cannot be undone. on securing the debate and I also pay tribute to a great friend, my hon. Friend the Member for South East 5.20 pm Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), who has huge experience of the fishing industry. She has been able to return to the Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I am grateful to my House in hugely difficult circumstances; our hearts very hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac much go out to her. Goldsmith) for seeking this debate and to the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. It is important My hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and for me to speak in it because the future of the fishing Redruth (George Eustice) said that he had talked about industry is of crucial importance to Lowestoft in my this issue back in 1999. I was then fighting for the constituency, where fishing has a long and proud record. Conservative party, while he was fighting for another party. I recall saying to him afterwards, “Do see the Last October, I secured an Adjournment debate on light; come over to the Conservative party.” I do not the future of the inshore fishing fleet on these coasts. know whether it was all due to me, but he obviously did The crisis facing the industry at that time and the see the light and came over to the true cause. solutions remain the same, so I will not repeat them, as they are on the record. There have, however, been four I was elected to the European Parliament and sat on significant developments since last October. its Fisheries Committee for some 10 years. In all that time, I opposed the common fisheries policy. Let me First, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall’s Fish Fight campaign explain why. The CFP is a little bit like communism: it is has brought into the nation’s living rooms the scandal a wonderful idea in principle, but in practice it just and obscenity of discards. As a result, our inboxes have does not work, as I shall explain. If we have a common been full. The nation has spoken; it will no longer put resource in Europe, every country thinks that some up with this practice. animals are more equal than others and are entitled to a Secondly, it is clear from her speech on 1 March that greater proportion of the fish. Commissioner Maria Damanaki understands the problem I will name some of those countries. Spain is one of and appreciates that drastic action is required. She said: them; it goes all around the world looking for fish, “Let’s be honest, if we continue this it is like treating a serious fishing off Africa and goodness knows where, causing illness with aspirin”. an awful lot of problems. We must face up to the reality. There will be vested interests opposed to the commissioner We need our fishermen to be able to sign up to a policy as she seeks to reform the common fisheries policy next to get rid of discards and to manage fisheries. If they year. Our Members of the European Parliament need believe that managing their fisheries sustainably will to give her the support she needs and deserves. provide the fish for them to catch, they will sign up to it. 1455 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1456

[Neil Parish] 5.28 pm Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): I I am sure that that is very much what the Minister will congratulate the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac be aiming for. However, if a common fisheries policy Goldsmith) on his great efforts and the fine words with means that we sustain our fish stocks but some other which he opened the debate, and I congratulate the nation then comes in and steals them, will we be inclined Backbench Business Committee on its wisdom in granting to adopt such conservation measures? such an important debate. It has reflected the huge Fishermen have to go out to sea and deal with the interest shown by the more than 674,000 people who vagaries of the weather, and then they have to deal with have already signed the Fish Fight petition, and the the vagaries of the common fisheries policy. There is, others in our country who want to see a radical change for instance, the nonsense of “quota species”, which to the EU common fisheries policy. means that those who catch too many of a particular species must throw healthy fish overboard. When big Labour Members recognise the strong consensus, boats throw discards into the sea, they often putrefy on both in today’s debate and in the wider Fish Fight the sea bed, which can have huge consequences. campaign, that now is the time for EU fisheries Ministers to turn fine declarations of intent into a clear programme We must take a sensible attitude, and I am delighted for change. The common fisheries policy must be made that the Government are doing so. Now is the time to fit to meet the challenges of protecting the biodiversity say to fishermen, “Let us have a look at the way in of our seas and oceans, placing the sustainability of the which you fish. Let us ensure that when you bring your fishing industry on a long-term footing, and securing fish back, you are able to sell it.” Many Members have greater regional management of EU fisheries waters, made the point that we need to eat more species of fish and we must introduce an ecosystem-based approach to in this country, but there is another point to be made, fisheries, to tackle the root causes of the immoral waste and I have made it in the House before. During the of fish currently discarded at sea. period of the common fisheries policy, much money has been wasted when boats have been decommissioned Mr MacNeil: As I am sure the hon. Gentleman and new boats have been built with larger engines that recognises, one of the problems with the CFP is that may enable more fish to be caught. When fish are nobody is in charge, so there is horse trading between landed that are not fit for human consumption, they competing interests. Unless that changes and somebody can be made into fishmeal and fed to farmed fish. That is put in charge—as is the case in Norway, Iceland and may not save a vast amount of money, but it will give the Faroes—the problem will not go away. Unless the fishermen some incentive to land those fish. introduction of regional management leads to such Another point that has been made today is that until problems being addressed, we will be in exactly the we stop discarding fish, the scientists will not know same mess as we have been under the CFP. what is actually being caught, so we will not know what the stocks are. That is a central part of the argument for Mr Bain: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. the banning of discards. The UK and other states that are in favour of reform I also think that the argument between large and must build alliances—such as with the southern European small boats must be settled. We cannot allow big companies countries, who have in the past been resistant to change—so to buy up huge amounts of quota and then force out that there is genuine momentum and a sense that reform many small fishermen. Those fishermen must have a is being, and will continue to be, pursued by all 27 member livelihood. We must face up to the reality: it is a case of states. In 2009, Scottish fishing vessels discarded almost the haves and have nots, when what we want are sustainable 28,000 tonnes of fish, representing a quarter of the fisheries. entire whitefish catch in Scotland. That demonstrates the seriousness of the need for reform. Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? I commend the contributions to the debate of my Neil Parish: No, I will not, because I have not much hon. Friends the Members for Great Grimsby (Austin time left. Mitchell) and for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who I have had 10 years’ experience in Europe, where have over the years been consistent in their trenchant many warm words have been spoken by commissioners critiques of the CFP. My hon. Friend the Member for in the past about discards. There have been improvements Great Grimsby has also been a huge champion of the such as the provision of better fishing tackle and Project fishing industry in his years as a Member of this House. 50% in Devon, but the Commission and Europe must I also commend the contributions of my hon. Friend be driven hard to make absolutely certain that we secure the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom change—that we stop discarding fish, and all the fish Greatrex), who referred to the need for the introduction that are landed are either eaten by humans or made into of long-term quotas, my hon. Friend the Member for fishmeal to feed farmed fish. Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), who talked about There is a limited resource of fish in the world—there the need for fish stock sustainability, and my hon. are no two ways about it—and we are consuming more Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner), fish than are being bred in the seas. If we do not act, we who talked passionately about the need for an ecosystem will destroy our own resource and our own ecosystem. I approach to fisheries. wish the Minister great success in Brussels. He must It was particularly good to see the hon. Member for take not only his briefcase but a handbag and a concrete South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) in the Chamber, block, because he will need them when he is negotiating. and to hear her speaking with such passion and authority It is necessary to negotiate very hard in Europe in order about this subject, to which her community and family to get anywhere. I look forward to the Minister’s coming have contributed so much. I also commend the remarks back with everything that we want. of the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer), who 1457 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1458 talked about the need for catch quotas, the hon. Member supporting the stronger involvement of fishing communities for St Ives (Andrew George), who referred to the need in the management of quotas and fisheries waters. for a package of reforms and a framework of change, However, we believe that a stronger impetus is required and the hon. Members for Banff and Buchan to deal with the root cause of the scandal of discarded (Dr Whiteford), for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport fish and by-catch: the delay in the introduction of an (Oliver Colvile), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Suffolk EU-wide ecosystem approach to fisheries management. Coastal (Dr Coffey), for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric The Commission has established that 88% of EU fisheries Ollerenshaw), for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), stocks are being fished beyond sustainable levels, and for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), for Truro and Falmouth that 30% are near to collapse. The introduction of (Sarah Newton), for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David ecosystem management in this cycle of CFP reform is Morris), for Waveney (Peter Aldous), for Tiverton and obligatory under the EU’s integrated maritime policy Honiton (Neil Parish) and for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid). and is strongly linked to the marine strategy framework They referred to the social and economic importance of directive’s overarching commitment to the achievement the fisheries in their communities, and the moral imperative of good environmental status. It is strongly supported for action that this time will result in reform. They put by the Commission’s green paper on CFP reform, and their arguments with great vigour and force. has proven successful elsewhere in restoring fishing Global fish and seafood consumption is increasing. stocks in large-scale fisheries in California, the north-east The US consumes almost five times more fish than a of the United States and parts of Australia. century ago, and China is consuming almost five times The introduction of ecosystem management would more seafood than in the 1960s. It has been estimated balance environmental, social and economic concerns that capture fisheries contribute up to $240 billion per and involve a range of policy changes, including the year to global output in direct and indirect economic introduction of financial incentives to reduce the pressure benefits. The United Nations Food and Agriculture on stocks of species nearing over-exploitation; further Organisation found in its report, “The State of World action on ocean acidification, which particularly threatens Fisheries and Aquaculture 2010”, that the fishing industry shellfish stocks; the regional management of fisheries supports the livelihoods of about 540 million people, or waters; fishing area closures; the incentivisation of new 8% of the world population. Yet concerns about biodiversity technology to monitor what is being taken from the sea and the condition of our marine environment have and landed on fishing boats; and the use of more grown. OCEAN2012 has estimated that half of the fish selective nets and fishing gear to reduce levels of by-catch consumed in the EU comes from waters outside the EU, of younger fish and other species. The multiple small through distant-water fleets and a growing reliance on trawl nets now used to catch prawns in the North Sea, imports. for instance, have led to a 50% reduction in discarded fish. In 2004 the Food and Agriculture Organisation estimated As my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North that discards amounted to 7.3 million tonnes or 8% of pointed out, in Norway the use of minimum catch sizes total global fish catches, although on another definition has proven successful in reducing levels of discards and of by-catch, it might involve in excess of 20 million fishing of undersized or juvenile fish. However, tonnes per year. At last June’s EU Fisheries Council, OCEAN2012 has recommended an alternative approach: Commissioner Damanaki set out the case for the most the introduction of a minimum marketing size that sweeping changes to the CFP since its inception. Those would still constitute a strong disincentive for the sale changes were based on an assessment that the current of juvenile fish. It also raises the significance of applying system, as last reformed in 2002, was top-down, short- new bans on discards and by-catch to EU fishing fleets termist in its effects on the fishing industry and weak in operating in third countries or distant-water fisheries. its protection of at-risk species. In particular, the system Key to the success of such a system of fisheries of total allowable catches, which was introduced in management would be the greater involvement of the 1983 for each commercial species of fish and which was fishing industry in devising such schemes at a regional subdivided into quotas for individual member states, level and reporting on their effectiveness and compliance, has proven grossly inadequate. It led in 2008 to the together with improved monitoring of ports. As well as permitted TACs being on average 48% higher than a prohibition on discards at EU level, however, over-fishing scientifically assessed sustainable levels. must be addressed. Simply permitting all caught fish to The CFP is also unresponsive to changes in fisheries be landed and sold without proper enforcement may practice, because it is linked to the relative proportions lead to the catching of undersized fish, with the further of species fished as long ago as the 1970s. In mixed depletion of fish species that could thereby emerge. In fisheries it is hugely wasteful and leads to the discarding the past, however, with cod, fisheries closures have led of unacceptable levels of whitefish in order to comply to displacement of fishing to adjacent areas, so any with the quota rules after one species quota has already successful package of fisheries closures this time would been exhausted. Across the EU, nearly half the whitefish require the active involvement of the fishing industry. and up to 70% of flatfish are discarded. Recently, and There is support across many member states for the particularly in her statement this March, Commissioner principle of introducing rights-based management of Damanaki has pursued a new settlement that will build fisheries as a means of tackling overcapacity, although upon catch-quota trials that have proven successful in there is understandable hesitation about introducing a substantially reducing discard levels in Scotland and scheme of individually transferable quota rights that Denmark among pelagic fisheries. There is also the prospect could see large-scale companies exert excessive dominance of an extension to other fisheries, including demersal over the market. mixed fisheries, in the second year of any new CFP. The Opposition welcome the lead that successive Dr Whiteford: Does the shadow spokesperson share Governments and devolved Administrations have provided my concern that the privatisation of our seas through in extending the use of longer-term catch quotas and individual transferable quotas would inevitably over 1459 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1460

[Dr Whiteford] needs to know the difference between what one wants to change but cannot and what one wants to change and time lead to concentration and consolidation in the can, and to focus one’s energies on the latter. If I industry in such a way as to undermine these efforts in focused my energies on the former I might satisfy some the longer term and hugely damage fishing communities? of the hon. Gentlemen who have contributed today, but I would not deal with the problem that faces our marine Mr Bain: There is a real danger of that occurring, environment, our fishermen and the coastal communities which is why I would refer the hon. Lady to the speech they support. given by Commissioner Damanaki in Berlin in March. I might not be a rabid Eurosceptic, but I am no friend She reflected on and took on board the concerns that of the common fisheries policy. However, it is not the the hon. Lady has expressed and we wait to see how fact that it is common that is the problem—it is the they will be phased into the reform proposals that are to policy that is wrong. As we have heard—the hon. Member be discussed in July. for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) made this point very The EU needs a common fisheries policy and it well—fish do not respect lines on maps. Many of the requires one that meets that challenges that the present stocks that our fishermen exploit spend part of their policy has failed so abjectly to address. With a strong lives in other countries’ waters. Our fishermen have motion passed by this House today, concerted action by always fished in other countries’ waters in the same way the European Commission and member state Governments, as other countries’ fishermen had historic rights to fish we can turn intentions into deeds worthy of the cause in our waters before our accession to the European raised in the Fish Fight campaign. Let us work for an Economic Community in 1972. I could spend a lot of ecosystem approach to fisheries, let us introduce a time discussing that, but I was 11 when it happened and regionalised structure to the common fisheries policy, I prefer to deal with the here and now—with what I can let us establish long-term catch quotas, and let us provide do and what we can achieve. incentives for new nets and new technologies. By those A point that has been made by several hon. Members means, we will tackle the root causes and end the on both sides of the House is that we have to look at scandal of discarded fish that has so appalled so many this issue in terms of an ecosystem approach. Whether people in this country. we were in the EU or not and whether we were in the CFP or not, we would need a shared legal framework to 5.42 pm manage our fish stocks. Our focus should be on getting The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the common framework right, which means getting rid Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): of unnecessary and over-detailed regulation and managing I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow North East stocks on a regional or sea-basin basis. It means giving (Mr Bain), who speaks for the Opposition, for continuing fishermen clear entitlements to fish stocks and giving the bipartisan approach on these matters. The relationship them a stake in the long-term health of those stocks. is challenging but it is vital that we continue what happened under the last Government and recognise Mr MacNeil: Will the Minister give way? that we are dealing with an industry in crisis and a marine environment that desperately needs the smack Richard Benyon: I am quite pressed for time and the of firm decision making. It is great to have his support. hon. Gentleman has had quite a lot of air time, but if I welcome the debate and I believe that it firmly there is time later I am sure that the House would be places the Backbench Business Committee in touch delighted to hear him make his point again. with issues that are of concern to our constituents. I Getting the common framework right means integrating welcome the contributions and hope to respond to fisheries management with other marine environmental many of the points later. I particularly pay tribute to my policies and applying the same principles of the sustainable hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Zac use of marine resources both within and outside EU Goldsmith) for the way in which he introduced the waters. Of course, it also means making sure that we debate and I hope that we can all support the motion have a reformed CFP that does all it can to eradicate tonight. discards. I welcome the fact that the EU Fisheries The debate comes at a crucial time. The conscience of Commissioner sees this issue as a top priority, as I think the nation has been moved by the sight of perfectly she does. I make that point to my hon. Friend the edible, quality fish being thrown into the sea, dead. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris). That is an abomination in a hungry world, I am sure At the meeting I attended on 1 March, the commissioner everyone agrees. That is the power of television. Most said that her predecessor had had a similar meeting five of us knew that it was happening, but few of us had years previously at which everyone around the table had seen it—it was happening over the horizon—but it has said how outraged they were with the process and now been brought into people’s homes and they are nothing happened. I am not prepared to allow my outraged. What if half the lambs we slaughter in this successor to be here saying that something needs to be country had been dumped on the side of the road? done in five years’ time. Something does need to be There would have been riots on the street. Now people done and I am committed to working with the Commission know what is happening and that is a tribute to those and other member states to achieve discard-free fisheries. who brought the matter of discards to the public Let me make a few things clear. The outrage that consciousness. people feel about discards is shared by the Government The debate also comes at a crucial time because there and Members on both sides of the House. Our actions is a window of opportunity to reform the common are not prompted by the Fish Fight campaign, but they fisheries policy. I have been a Minister for only a year, are enhanced by it and we welcome it wholeheartedly. but my assessment of the art of government is that one We are tackling this issue through the reform of the 1461 Fisheries12 MAY 2011 Fisheries 1462

CFP, but we are not waiting for that reform. As has country. I am grateful for the commitment that fishers, been said, important progress has been made with catch all users of the marine environment and everyone who quotas, and the trials that were instigated by the previous cares about it have shown in operating through that Government have been extended by us. The hostility of bottom-up approach. fishermen to having cameras on their boats has been I am not saying that everyone is going to be happy, largely negated and they are now queuing up to get into but I will work night and day to make sure that what we these schemes. Hostility from other member states for achieve recognises the importance of socio-economic that method of fishing management has largely disappeared activities—there could be unintended consequences if and we have signed a declaration with the Governments we do not do so—and the fact that if fishing is displaced of France, Germany and Denmark to see that that is to other areas it could be damaging. I am therefore introduced. Project 50% has also brought huge benefits determined to make this work. I want to make absolutely in reducing discards. certain that we do not lose our derogation, and my I want to see a high-level objective of working towards understanding from the Commission is that that will discard-free fisheries in the new CFP with member not happen. states accountable and responsible for working to achieve I place huge weight on our under-10 metre consultation. that, managing what is caught rather than what is I am passionate about the fact that the inshore fleet landed. There is a lot of focus on imposing a ban on does a great deal for coastal communities and social life fishermen discarding at sea. I can support a ban and I in coastal Britain, and I want it to have a sustainable will be pushing for one—it is semantics whether we talk future. Sustainability is as important for fish stocks as it about an end to discards or a ban—but only if it is is for jobs onshore, and I will work hard to make sure backed by genuinely effective, enforceable and affordable that our proposals are workable. measures that encourage fishermen to be more selective I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Rutherglen and about what they catch. That is crucial, and that point Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), who made a thoughtful has been made by many hon. Members today. The last contribution. I shall grasp his thread of optimism, as I thing we want is to transfer a waste problem at sea so like what he said about multi-annual plans. I want to be that it becomes a waste issue on land. How horrendous the last Minister who has to go through that ridiculous it would be to bury fish because there was no market for charade every December in which we sit through the them, or simply to ban the symptom of the problem, night negotiating. I am delighted that we achieved a rather than the cause, criminalising fishermen in the relatively good result last December and that the process. We must remember that a ban would be wrong Government, working with the devolved Governments, for some species that can be returned to the sea alive. I argued on the basis of sustainability on every occasion. pay tribute to the Members who tabled the motion for However, it is an absurd system. Multi-annual plans being willing to change it, and I make the point that take power away from politicians, which is why some sharks, skate and rays, many of which are critically countries do not want to lose the present system—they endangered in EU waters, can often survive after being like the patronage it gives them. I want to work on caught, as can many species of shellfish. multi-annual plans and end the horse trading that we As well as providing fishermen with mechanisms to have to go through. reduce discards we are tackling the problem in the UK I am conscious of time, so I shall pay tribute to the through our Fishing for the Markets project, and several contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for (Mr Spencer), whom I refer to the WWF/Industry Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), spoke about Alliance, which builds on the Fish Fight campaign by the 54% of discards for which there is no market. The taking the fight to my fellow Ministers in Europe, project seeks to find markets, which is extremely important. knocking on their door and saying that it wants change. In the few minutes remaining, I shall turn to some of The hon. Member for Southampton, Test the points that have been made this afternoon. My hon. (Dr Whitehead) also made a good speech. I refer him to Friend the Member for Richmond Park made a very the work of the Princes international sustainability good speech in introducing the debate, and he mentioned fund, which currently values the north Atlantic tuna the importance of a regionalised approach, which is fishery at $70 million. If it was fished sustainably, it absolutely key. In discussing ecosystems, we are talking would be valued at $310 million, a massive increase. It is about a sea basin approach—in some cases it is more only by understanding that kind of difference in valuing local—in which we can manage fish. People talk about our fish, rather than valuing them dead as we do at the an abundance of fish at certain times of the year, but moment, and valuing the potential social and economic they may not be abundant if there is not co-ordinated impact that we will bring about that huge benefit. I pay action, which is why an ecosystem-based approach is tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives important. (Andrew George) for mentioning the Trevose box. He is The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) right to point out that fishermen do so much to address made a familiar speech, and the points that he made sustainability themselves. were eloquently countered by the hon. Member for I want to give my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) and by my hon. Friends. Richmond Park a few minutes to respond to the debate I pay particular tribute, as I did this morning, to my and so will conclude my remarks. The Government hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll share the priorities expressed by the motion. I can Murray), who made a courageous and powerful speech. reassure the House that those will remain at the heart of I give her this absolute, determined pledge. I want the our thinking as we press strongly for a reformed CFP Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 to be a beacon of and continue to address discarding in the UK fleet. I how to do marine conservation. I want people around am fully behind the intentions of the motion, although the world to come and see how we do things in this I am not sure that it reflects the full scope of the 1463 Fisheries 12 MAY 2011 1464

[Richard Benyon] Business Support (Lancaster and Fleetwood) Government’s ambitions for CFP reform. We have an intensive diplomatic effort ahead to negotiate the reform Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House we need, and we must get the detailed measures right, do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.) including those on discards. We can do that only by working with our fishing industry to develop effective 5.58 pm measures. I welcome the tabling of the motion and the spotlight that the Fish Fight campaign has shone on the Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I current CFP’s failings at a time when we have a once-in- am grateful for the opportunity to talk about my a-decade opportunity to overcome them. constituency. It is always a pleasure and an opportunity to give Ministers more information about the needs of 5.56 pm the area, as I am sure it is a pleasure for them to hear it. I want to focus on the experiences and needs of businesses Zac Goldsmith: I start by again thanking the Backbench there, and say a little about the economic development Business Committee for making this debate possible. that is also needed. We have heard some superb contributions from Members across the House, and every speech added something By way of background, Fleetwood is an old fishing unique, which was very important. I also want to thank port that is celebrating its 175th anniversary this year; I the shadow Minister and the Minister for their supportive am almost repeating what I said in the previous debate. comments and for staying throughout the entire debate, The fishing fleet has seriously declined over the past few taking notes furiously and responding to the various decades, to the point that, although a few dozen fishing points that were made. That is not always the case in boats are registered at Fleetwood, only three boats such debates, so I appreciate it. actually now fish from the site. Until recently, Stena Lines ran a ferry route from Fleetwood to Larne in I wish to offer particular thanks to the Fish Fight Northern Ireland; it withdrew the route back in December. campaign, which was mentioned again and again throughout the debate. There is a direct link between its Fish processing is the main industry, and the campaign outside Parliament and this motion in Parliament. internationally famous Fisherman’s Friend is also a It is a perfect example of hundreds of thousands of large employer. Transport links are poor, however. people mobilising their representatives in Parliament According to the Association of Train Operators, Fleetwood and moving an issue that not many people find interesting is part of one of the largest urban areas in the country to the top of the political agenda, for now at least. I pay without a direct rail link, something that I raised— tribute to those campaigners, who have done a superb job. The debate probably would not be happening, and 6pm certainly not with such a motion, without their involvement. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). The motion is ambitious. I will not repeat all the arguments used at the beginning of the debate because I Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House will run out of time, and kill the motion myself in doing do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.) so. If it is passed with the support of the House, which I think it will be, we will see an absolute commitment to Eric Ollerenshaw: I raised the issue of a direct rail ending discards and a new regulatory regime that recognises link in a Westminster Hall debate a couple of weeks the difference between small, traditional fishermen and ago, and the only other transport link is a single-lane their industrial competitors. Crucially, we will see the road, the A585, from the motorway. The overriding beginning of a process in which we will regain control story, as everyone in Fleetwood will say, is that the town over those crucial 12 sovereign miles. In my view, nothing has suffered significantly in recent years, largely as the is possible without that. It is a central part of the use of the port has declined. motion. I once again thank the House and the Backbench Lancaster, at the other extreme of the constituency, is Business Committee. also an old port city, and it has a great heritage. Its medieval castle includes the only example left in England Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Does the hon. of anything that was built by John of Gaunt, and its Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) wish to tourist potential is strong. Lancaster university is ranked move her amendments? No? We shall therefore decide in the top 10 by The Times, it has a large campus and its on the motion before the House. research is driving many business developments in the Question put and agreed to. area. What Lancaster lacks is a large modern department Resolved, store, meaning that its retail business pales in comparison with places such as Preston, which is increasingly taking That this House welcomes the Fish Fight campaign; and calls business away. I hope that a proposed development, on the Government to vote against proposed reforms of the EU Common Fisheries Policy unless they implement an ecosystems-based known as Centros, will resolve that in the next few approach to fisheries management, end discards in relation to all years, so long as English Heritage can overcome some fish and shellfish with derogation only for species proven to have a points of detail which have held up the project. high survival rate on discarding, require that all fish and shellfish We also have a large rural area, with small hill farms are harvested at sustainable levels by 2015, ensure the involvement and various other businesses established around the city of fishers and other stakeholders in decision-making processes and enable the UK to introduce higher standards of management boundaries, but again there is a problem with a lack of and conservation in respect of all vessels fishing within its territorial rural broadband, particularly in the hills surrounding waters, taking into particular account vessel size and environmental Lancaster, so the question is: how do we help business impact. and the private sector in Lancaster and Fleetwood to grow? 1465 Business Support (Lancaster and 12 MAY 2011 Business Support (Lancaster and 1466 Fleetwood) Fleetwood) Much of what is needed is the same as what businesses However, in the interim period local businesses are need all over the country, and I will start with the very uncertain about how the new regime will work. generic, throw in some local examples and then move The Lancaster chamber of commerce—and it is not on to some more constituency concerns. The outcome alone—says that it needs more clarification on what of Project Merlin, to get the banks to lend more—an support there will be, who will deliver it, and how to extra £11 billion this year compared with 2010—is access it. Once Business Link regional services close, obviously welcome, but perhaps one of the biggest people wonder what vehicle will be used to keep businesses complaints that I still receive, from small businesses informed of what support is available. They need to especially, is that they continue to struggle to secure know more about the mechanisms that will be available finance from the banks, whether new capital or just an to support and encourage new businesses, to assist overdraft extension. In many cases there is simply a lack potential high-growth businesses and to encourage business of good customer service, with bank managers and development in areas of deprivation, and about how decision makers not being available. the interrelations between the various councils, regenerations For example, Mr lain Bailey, a small businessman and Government bodies is to develop. There is still based in Lancaster, says that he still struggles to engage work to be done, especially as our LEP has only just productively with his bank when he needs to; that started to be set up. I urge the Minister to ensure that “many businesses feel banks have left us all adrift”; there is as much communication as possible with local businesses, and particularly local chambers of commerce, and that it is simply over the next few months so that the various communities “up to the businesses themselves to sort things out!” can begin to plan properly for the future. My local chamber of commerce, Lancaster chamber According to the Library, 42.2% of the population of of commerce, in its most recent members survey on Lancaster and Fleetwood is employed in the public finance and banking, received a number of disconcerting sector—the 37th highest proportion in the UK. As cuts comments. Here are just a few examples from individual are made to public spending, the Government’s agenda businesses in Lancaster. One said: for growth in the private sector will be disproportionately “Our bank is very unhelpful at the moment and have no leeway important in constituencies such as mine, and I want to and appear to be too inflexible.” ensure that we get our fair share of resources and that Another business person said: all that can be done to encourage private sector growth “I was refused a formal overdraft increase but allowed excess at in my area is done. punitive cost.” The regional growth fund is a big opportunity for A further business noted: businesses, an opportunity for individual companies, “Even though we had a business account with our bank for and a help in regenerating whole area. In the north-west over 25 years they refused to even give us an answer when we we have welcomed the Government’s recognition of the applied for a loan.” distinction between the south-east and the east and the And finally, one more business explained: rest of the country, and the fact that the regional “I asked to increase my overdraft to help ease cash flow but growth fund’s priority is our kind of area. The first our bank forced us to reduce it by £10,000 instead!″ round of successful regional growth fund bids lists an It is clear that in some cases the banks are still not impressive number of jobs that the supported first living up to their end of the bargain, so perhaps the round schemes will help to create or maintain in the Minister will let me know where we are on bank lending, wider north-west. and whether there is any mechanism that will allow However, my concern about the first round process is businesses, or perhaps MPs acting on their behalf, to that a lot of the criteria are determined by European report ongoing problems for his Department to follow subsidy rules, which in effect means that support for up. large companies can be offered only to particularly I welcome the end of the Northwest Regional low-employment or deprived parts of the country.Assisted Development Agency, and the new local enterprise areas in the north-west include Liverpool, St Helens partnership structure should lead to more targeted, and parts of Manchester. The other parts of the north-west specific and relevant assistance for places such as Lancaster are missing. For example, a major manufacturer based and Fleetwood. One problem with the Northwest Regional in Lancaster that employs 150 people wanted to expand, Development Agency involved the fact that, for many and was looking into the possibility of bidding for of us in the region, the view rapidly developed that the regional growth fund money to do so. It was determined north-west began and ended in Manchester and on that it could provide 50% more jobs through its expansion. Merseyside. Sadly, I will have to return to that theme However, its turnover was above the threshold for assistance later, but if I do nothing else today I hope to make it outside the special assisted areas, and it was effectively clear to the Minister that that is definitely not the case. hamstrung in terms of accessing regional growth fund I also think that the new local enterprise partnership— money. I remind the Minister that this is about the LEP—structures can lead to more direct input from possibility of new jobs. local businesses, and that can only be good for ensuring Those rules have thus resulted in most of the resources that schemes are of real practical value. In Lancashire of the first round regional growth fund bids going to we have taken slightly longer than some other places to big city areas such as Manchester and Liverpool—precisely get our LEP agreed, but I thank the Minister’s Department the situation that I had hoped the break up of the for its help in finally enabling us to bring the various RDAs was going to help to avoid. We accept that this parts of Lancashire together. I put on record my personal will help my constituents, many of whom either already thanks to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) commute to Manchester each day or would be prepared for his efforts in trying to ensure that Lancashire finally to do so. However, I hope that phase 2 of the bidding got a Lancashire-wide LEP. process will include more support for north-west companies 1467 Business Support (Lancaster and 12 MAY 2011 Business Support (Lancaster and 1468 Fleetwood) Fleetwood) [Eric Ollerenshaw] Edinburgh now, while the areas around London argue about where their terminus will be. The point is clear: outside Manchester and Liverpool—companies that High Speed 2 is vital in the long term for business in my can show that they can provide the extra jobs and area, and in my constituency in particular. growth that I understood were this Government’s priority. The other helpful development is the proposed northern Perhaps that would be more likely to happen if more hub, which will allow faster and more frequent services bids were accepted from small and medium-sized between the cities of the north and bring an estimated enterprises, but the return on investment required for a £4 billion of benefits to the region. That will be good successful regional growth fund bid has in some ways for business and for job creation. In particular, the limited applications from that sector. SMEs often do electrification of the line from Preston to Blackpool will not have the resources to compile the data required for be a major help to the growth of business in my area. entering into the bidding process—at least not on their I am also pleased that the Department for Transport own—and so we come back to support for businesses in has finally agreed that the M6 to Heysham link road terms of information and guidance to help them through should go ahead. It has been on the drawing board for the bidding process. 50-odd years. When it is finally built, it should lead to That brings me on to the related subject of enterprise better communication to the port of Heysham, which zones. I broadly welcome the Government’s creation of will help businesses and attract new businesses on both enterprise zones. They have the potential to bring much- the Morecambe and Lancaster sides of the River Lune, needed investment into areas that need jobs and and along the M6 corridor. regeneration. They also have a key role to play in closing the north-south divide and rebalancing the economy, David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): which is a major aim of the Government. Of the Does my hon. Friend agree that the new link road will 11 zones that have been announced, the two in the create pockets of investment in my constituency and in north-west are in—you’ve guessed it—Manchester and his constituency next door? Liverpool. Although I welcome those zones because they will drag business northwards and create hubs of industry that neighbouring areas can feed off, I am Eric Ollerenshaw: Absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend concerned that, yet again, it is the big cities of the for his support in working with the chamber of commerce, north-west that will get the immediate benefit. I hope the county council and Ministers to help them see the that more original locations will emerge when the remaining importance of that scheme, which promises much for 10 enterprise zones are allocated, possibly helping areas business. further north than Manchester. An enterprise zone on The transport links to Fleetwood remain poor. I have the Fylde coast, for example, would be welcome, because raised with Ministers that although there is about four it would help to provide jobs not only for my constituents and a half or five miles of railway line in Fleetwood, in Fleetwood, but in the wider areas of Blackpool and unfortunately, there are no trains on it. There is a plan, Fylde, as well as providing new business orders for local with the support of the council, to get that development, businesses. which needs capital of about £6 million. I will come Transport infrastructure is also necessary for businesses back to those figures in a minute. to thrive. The coalition has done well in that area so far. My last general point is that I fully support the plans After years of underinvestment in our transport network to reduce the amount of red tape that businesses have to under Labour, in just one year there has been a lot of fight through. We need economic growth, and it is only good news for the north-west, and for my constituents right that we should make it as easy as possible for in particular. The renewal of the west coast franchise businesses and entrepreneurs to start up companies and offers extra capacity for the overcrowded rail services create the jobs that are so badly needed. That is the on that route. In the longer term, High Speed 2 offers greatest area in which businesses have asked me for more capacity, speed and choice for journeys to London support and talked about their hopes from the coalition. and, ultimately, Scotland. It might also open a direct The Government’s war on red tape—the red tape link to Heathrow and the channel tunnel. challenge, I think it has been branded—is welcomed by Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): As usual, all businesses. I know that many previous Governments my hon. Friend is making a passionate case for his have talked the talk, but I hope this Administration will business community. He makes an important point finally walk the walk. I am particularly hopeful of that about high-speed rail. Is he aware that evidence from because I know that the Minister has that type of other countries shows that the success of a high-speed background and has personal experience. I am sure that line often depends on the degree of connectivity to the he will put his full weight behind the deregulation drive. termini of those lines from areas such as his? We should Those are the general issues, but I also wish to do all we can to encourage businesses to make their mention one or two specific local examples to demonstrate voices heard in the current high-speed rail consultation. the problems. The first is that of a company called Nitratec, which is based in Fleetwood and supplies Eric Ollerenshaw: My hon. Friend makes a significant trucks and trailers both new and used for the UK and point. High Speed 2 is critical to the north-west and to export markets. It asked me to visit last year. It was Yorkshire. We should talk about it as a line that will go having a particular problem in getting help to access from London to Manchester and from London to export markets, particularly in some less usual export Leeds, and eventually from London to Glasgow and destinations. For instance, it was keen to grow into from London to Edinburgh. As hon. Members may Africa and Kurdistan. As it happened, I was able to put know, I have said in other places that I do not see why it on to the British embassy in Iraq via a couple of we do not start building south from Glasgow and contacts, and I understand that that side of things is 1469 Business Support (Lancaster and 12 MAY 2011 Business Support (Lancaster and 1470 Fleetwood) Fleetwood) now going well. The lesson is that perhaps we could still I need to give the Minister time to reply. I should like be doing more to help companies understand where him to reconsider regional stock exchanges, and I should they can go to get assistance if they want to export like him to consider enterprise zones being part and goods or services. In that instance, it was just a fluke parcel of every university campus, to enable universities that I had contacts in the particular area where the to develop innovation. Most of all, I look for some company wanted to develop, but why should a business assistance from the Government, or for them to put that has such potential have to rely on the chance nature pressure on banks to provide that much-needed assistance, of its MP’s contacts? so that we get the growth we need. Increasing exports is, of course, a major policy plank for the UK. I note that only yesterday, the Foreign 6.19 pm Secretary told the House that if we could increase the number of small and medium-sized enterprise exporters The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong in this country from one in five to the EU average of Learning (Mr John Hayes): I am extremely grateful for one in four, the extra exports from Britain would more the chance to respond to this debate, and I congratulate than cancel out the trade deficits that we have experienced my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood in recent years. I hope that more can be done to help (Eric Ollerenshaw) on securing it. My last dealings with companies get on the right track. Fleetwood directly were around a decade ago, when, as I shall give another example. Paul Banks is a constituent shadow fisheries Minister, I visited that splendid town of mine who has a start-up business in Lancaster called and stayed at the North Euston hotel, which is, of Image Alchemy. It is highly innovative, as I saw when I course, part of the Mount, which is perhaps the jewel in visited him a couple of months ago. His potential for the crown—if I might put it that way—of Fleetwood. further growth is extremely high, and Lancaster university’s How appropriate that we should today have this environment centre has recently “adopted” him, marking Adjournment debate following a debate on fishing, his business out as worthy of support. His new prototype which forms such an important part of Fleetwood’s system was an immediate hit at a recent German trade history. As I recall from my time as shadow fisheries fair and a fair at the national exhibition centre in Minister and from information I have gained somewhat Birmingham, and order inquiries came pouring in. To later, 1,000 people are still employed in that industry, get the system to production he needs to get finance, mostly in fish processing. As my hon. Friend said in his which could mean the immediate creation of five new excellent speech, many more people are, I suspect, employed jobs in the community. producing Fishermen’s Friends, which I understand are Mr Banks has funded the new product with his own particularly popular in Japan. money, but he has struggled to access local and EU John Ruskin said that the first test of a truly great funding designed to help expand small start-ups such as man is his humility. I do not aspire to be a truly great his. The bureaucracy that he has encountered in seeking man, but I do aspire to humility, and I should say at the a small five-figure sum has bogged him down with outset that I could never know as much as my hon. repetitive form-filling, but the rewards if his expansion Friend about his constituency, nor speak with the passion can be aided are potentially huge. The key point that I about it that he has demonstrated today. He comes wish to underline is the small sum needed to get the to the House with a long and proud history in local company launched. We need to make it easier for such government, and already, he has brought an energy, businesses to find funding, especially when the sums enthusiasm, commitment and, if I may say, an expertise needed are so small. to his dealings in this place as the representative of his Another example is a scheme called the fish park in splendid constituency. Fleetwood. One of the plans for the regeneration of I shall try to respond to as many of the points that Fleetwood was to develop a sea and shellfish processing my hon. Friend raised as I can, although he will appreciate park, providing a new unit for the already resident that time is short. He knows how deeply the Government company AM Seafoods and various other units for are committed to encouraging renewed economic growth some 20 SMEs. The industry is already worth some and the new jobs and businesses that will spring from £135 million and 660 jobs to the local economy, but the that, and I draw his attention to the work done leading enhancement and modern premises could mean the up to today and the announcement on youth employment addition of 150 new jobs in a town that needs private made this afternoon by the Prime Minister and Deputy sector growth. Prime Minister, with which I was pleased to be involved. A partnership between Wyre borough council, Lancashire They announced new policies for encouraging more county council and AM Seafoods is in place, and the apprenticeships, which is a subject dear to my heart, plan is to split the costs 50:50 between the private and and for work placements and experience as a means public sector. The public sector amount required is of moving people from economic disengagement to £6 million. The point that I am trying to make is that engagement. the sums needed in areas outside the major areas of That will resonate in Fleetwood, as my hon. Friend deprivation are quite small, but the resulting employment suggests, but ensuring that we take advantage of the would be quite large. In my postbag and my surgeries, capital that lies, sometimes unused, among those who virtually every fortnight I hear of a new business, whether are currently disengaged, is a challenge for the whole small or large—although the businesses in my area are country. The investment infrastructure to which he drew not huge—that has the same problem. Through innovation attention also means investing in human infrastructure. or expanding on existing orders, they could provide the That is a central pillar of the Government’s macroeconomic extra jobs that the economy needs, but at the moment plans. It would be impossible to recalibrate the economy there seems no way for them to get assistance with that to make it more sustainable if we did not make that growth, and certainly not from the banks. kind of investment, as he properly said. 1471 Business Support (Lancaster and 12 MAY 2011 Business Support (Lancaster and 1472 Fleetwood) Fleetwood) [Mr John Hayes] Government have made considerable efforts to get the banks to meet the demand for credit from viable SMEs. Just as the Government have been honest with the Under the Project Merlin agreement, the banks have British people about the scale of the deficit and its committed to make available £190 billion of new credit implications, we must now accept that the struggle for in 2011, of which £76 billion will be for SMEs—a growth will not be without its setbacks. For example, I 15% increase on the £66 billion lent in 2010. Clearly was particularly saddened to hear from my hon. Friend Banks still need to make commercial decisions, and it is of Stena Line’s recent decision to close its service between not for the Government to intervene in these. In view of Fleetwood and Larne, although I understand that the that, I would encourage any businesses having difficulties service operated at a loss for some time. with their bank to continue to engage with the bank to Having said that, just as we accept bad news, we try to resolve the issue. should celebrate good news—better tidings, if I can put My hon. Friend also made the important point that it that way. Only the other day, I was heartened to read we need an independent review of such matters when in the Blackpool Gazette, which is always on my bedside things do not go right; and indeed, an independent table, as one might imagine, that my hon. Friend had reviewer has been appointed to monitor the banks’ formally opened the delightfully named Strawberry Gardens appeal processes. He will publish an annual report on pub in Fleetwood. I gather that that is the first pub to be the effectiveness of those processes. The appeal process opened by the new and even more inventively titled Fuzzy that we have set up is sensitive to the very sound points Duck brewery, which has been set up in his constituency. that my hon. Friend made. He can feel absolutely I can assure him of my best wishes for their success. assured that this Minister, in this Department, along The creation of a small business such as that one with my hon. Friends, will ensure that small businesses illustrates a fundamentally important point, as my hon. get the backing that they need and deserve. Friend said, for small businesses are the bedrock of our My hon. Friend also talked about business mentors economy. Businesses in Lancaster and Fleetwood are and advice. It is critical that we establish a network of primarily small and medium-sized enterprises, and the experienced business mentors offering practical advice issues they face are typical of those experienced by to existing businesses and people who want to start a companies across the country over the past few years. business. We are setting up a new business coaching for SMEs account for more than 99% of private businesses, growth programme to enable new small businesses with and about half of all jobs. I do not need to tell you that, high growth potential to realise that potential. We are Mr Deputy Speaker, given your background and your also refocusing the Solutions for Business range of commitment to that sector based on personal and family products, so that they are better focused on helping experience. firms grow. As my hon. Friend suggested, I, too, have a background We are also establishing local enterprise partnerships. in business, having been a businessman in the IT industry We expect the new LEPs to be able to provide help to before coming to this place. I fully appreciate his points small firms, both with advice and by bringing together about regulation and tax, and in particular about the useful partnerships that will allow the sharing of good need to invest in small businesses—and, for that reason, practice across the private and public sectors. That the importance of banks getting behind those businesses, increased coherence will help my hon. Friend’s constituency, to allow them to form and to grow. as it will others, in the ways that he requested. As set out What, he might ask, are we doing to help with all in the White Paper, local enterprise partnerships will that? Well, we will enable better access to both debt and play diverse roles, reflecting the differing local priorities equity finance. We will ensure that we have a predictable in different areas. These will include ensuring that both tax system that rewards endeavour. We will also reduce planning and infrastructure investment support business red tape and ensure that the support that we provide needs, and working with Government to support enterprise, SMEs is delivered in the most effective and efficient way innovation, global trade and inward investment. He will possible. I hope to return to one or two of those points also know that we announced 11 enterprise zones in the in more detail, but I want to emphasise access to Budget. They will be hosted by LEPs and will bring finance in particular, as that was a central part of my together a wide range of tools and incentives in an hon. Friend’s speech. As he said, the flow of credit to unashamedly pro-growth way, giving power back to viable SMEs is essential for supporting growth; and local communities and businesses. indeed, that is the core priority for this Government. My hon. Friend has done a service to this House in We recognise the problems faced by small firms that do highlighting the important issues facing his constituency. not have adequate security to obtain finance. That is They reflect those facing constituencies up and down why we have decided to continue the enterprise finance this country. He can be assured that this is a Government guarantee until 2015, to unlock up to £2 billion of who are pro-business, pro-enterprise, pro-growth, pro additional lending to SMEs. The latest figures show his constituency and pro-him. that 18 businesses in my hon. Friend’s constituency Question put and agreed to. have so far been offered and have drawn down EFG-backed loans worth over £2 million. The EFG scheme is of course intended to complement 6.29 pm rather than replace mainstream bank lending. This House adjourned. 493WH 12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 494WH

such as Japan and Hong Kong, and France and Germany Westminster Hall were not included in the comparison. However we look at the issue and however it is sliced and diced, we are performing worse than we should as the sixth largest Thursday 12 May 2011 economy in the world. As well as our current standards not being good [ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] enough, our historical standards have also been poor. The problem is deep and historical. According to a CBI survey, 40% of people in the UK do not have basic BACKBENCH BUSINESS skills, compared with 34% in the US, 28% in France and 22% in Germany, yet the political debate in this country Education Performance has been dominated by the idea that our standards are rising year on year, despite the fact that we are clearly Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting not producing enough rigorously educated students to be now adjourned.—(Bill Wiggin.) fill available jobs. Schools are producing strings of A* students, when there would previously have been a 2.30 pm smattering of As. According to Durham university, a Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): I am maths A-level grade E in 1988 would now be a C or even delighted to have secured this debate under the auspices higher. of the Backbench Business Committee. Underlying many There is still a persistent failure in basic qualifications, of the key questions facing us, such as where our future with 45% of students not achieving a GCSE in England growth will come from and issues about youth employment, and maths at grade C or above. The economic impact of is our country’s education performance, and how it all that is clear, and I see it in South West Norfolk, compares with that of our international competitors. where companies struggle to recruit skilled engineers There has been much soul-searching around the world and graduate business managers, and we have a shortage about education performance, so when Germany did of teachers in critical subjects such as maths. Between badly in the programme for international student assessment 1997 and 2007—the boom years for our economy—the tables in 2000, it upped the academic standards in many number of jobs increased, but the majority were taken of its technical schools to address the issue. Other by people from overseas, many of whom filled our skill countries have delayed specialisation, and the US has gaps. Employers consistently say that they are not satisfied introduced new policies in teaching. In Britain, there is with the quality of people leaving school and university— not enough soul-searching, either in politics or in the 71% are unhappy with language skills, and half of all wider education community and establishment, about universities have remedial courses in English and maths our performance. to bring students up to standard. I have spoken to I want to talk about how our results compare academics at Cambridge university, Greenwich university internationally, the impact of that, and the main causes. and throughout our university sector who say that our I have identified two. The first is the false choice that is education system is not delivering people who are ready often presented between quality and quantity in our to learn and able to think for themselves. That is a education system, which has led to a decline in standards, crucial problem. and the second is our process-orientated system, which Some people say that it is inevitable that if we have does not rely on the student driving it. I also want to more people in our school system, send more people to talk about how we can start to move towards the university, and have higher participation, standards will high-quality mass education system that should be our decline. They claim that there is a trade-off between goal in Britain. mass education and standards. I have heard it said There has been much coverage of the hourglass economy. during the past year that some students are not suited The number of high-skilled jobs has grown by 30% in to such education and are not up to it because they are the past 10 years, and the number of medium-skilled not academic. I think that belief is holding our country jobs has declined by 10%. There is an increasing return back, compared with other countries, and has driven an to education throughout the global economy, and if the unwelcome change in our school system. 20th century was a human capital century, surely we Encouraged by the crazy equivalence in league tables will see an acceleration of that in the 21st century. and UCAS points, media studies has been given the The US was very successful in the 20th century, same value as mathematics in our league tables. I studied having universal high school education and increased both subjects, and I know that they are not equivalent. college access, but it has acknowledged that the quality That has hastened the flight from academic subjects, was not there, although the quantity was. There has particularly in comprehensive schools in this country. been a catching-up with that in the UK, where participation Employers and universities are absolutely clear about has increased at high school and university level, but what they want: they want maths, languages, science, unfortunately quality has fallen. We see the evidence for and people who can think and analyse. Nevertheless, that in the PISA league tables. Although flawed, as all fewer and fewer people are studying those subjects, and international comparisons are, they at least represent there has been a fall in the number studying GCSE students sitting the same test in each country. They languages from 79% to 44%. There was a fall in the show that Britain has dropped to 28th in maths, 16th in number studying core academic subjects at A-level from science and 25th in reading. Some people will cite 60% to 50% between 1996 and 2010. TIMSS—the trends in the international mathematics That is a uniquely British phenomenon. It is not and science study—which shows that the UK came happening elsewhere. In fact, academic standards elsewhere seventh, but we were still behind the Asian elite countries, are being tightened, so at the end of high school in a top 495WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 496WH

[Elizabeth Truss] Russell group university, because that is specifically prohibited. Students are being misled about the kinds US state such as Massachusetts, students will be studying of subjects that will help them get ahead in life. maths, science, humanities and languages. In France, all This debate is not only about the sort of subjects that students studying for the French baccalaureate study people study, but about the way some subjects are maths, French and foreign languages. In Japan, 95% of studied. A combination of modular examinations and 18-year-old students are studying maths, sciences, languages bureaucratic intervention has damaged the intellectual and humanities. We are an outlier. Indeed, the Nuffield integrity of many subjects at A-level. I frequently hear Foundation produced a report that showed that we are academics in universities complaining that students do unusual in not requiring maths from 16 to 18, and that not have a holistic view of the subject, and that they is feeding through into our school system. Unfortunately, have been taught a pick-and-mix of various elements we now have primary school teachers—I have seen this and therefore do not have the deep understanding and in classrooms—who do not understand maths concepts, practice that they need to move to a higher level. and are unable to communicate those concepts to the next generation. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): Before the hon. Lady leaves the topic of subject Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) choice, I recently visited many schools around the country, (Con): My hon. Friend makes interesting international and the strong message coming across from young comparisons. Does she have any data for China and people was that they become interested in, and start India, the two great economic superpowers of the 21st thinking about, what they want to do quite early—perhaps century that she rightly heralds? The great changes as early as year 6 of primary school or the first year of being made in schools in those countries, and their secondary school. By the time they receive what they passion for what my hon. Friend would regard as hard regard as good advice, it may be too late to have an subjects, is equally important, and augurs badly for the influence on the subject choices that they need to make state of our education system. to achieve their aspirations. The hon. Lady makes an important point; it is about starting early and not Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is right, and I believe underestimating pupils’ competence. that the Shanghai region of China is included in the study that I mentioned. The appetite for education in Elizabeth Truss: I agree completely with the right some of those countries—as shown by the thousands of hon. Gentleman. Too often, limiting choices are made applications for the Indian Institute of Technology—shows early in a student’s educational career. I support the a cultural attitude towards education that will help English baccalaureate because if that becomes a more drive those countries in the future. general qualification, people will not limit their choices In Britain, we hear the idea that introducing new early on. The lesson from other education systems subjects is somehow modern, or that it is inclusive to seems to be that delayed specialisation is a good thing, different types of people and that is what is wanted by and that too much early specialisation has a damaging employers in the broader world. That is simply not the effect. I oppose the suggestion that GCSEs be taken case, and the accusation that it is somehow retrograde earlier, for example, as I think that would be damaging. or old fashioned to want those core subjects is wrong. We can see the subjects studied by our international competitors. The reason why those subjects are taken is Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): The hon. Lady that an in-depth study of an academic discipline provides makes a thoughtful speech. On early specialisation, and a level of rigour and the ability to analyse and think, given the point made by the right hon. Member for which prepares a person for any kind of job. Technology Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), does is changing rapidly, and we do not know what skills and she believe that selection at age 11, for example, is a abilities we will need in 20 or 30 years’ time. Studying an good idea? academic discipline to a high level gives a person that vital ability to think and learn. Such study is not an Elizabeth Truss: I would not personally have such a elitist or minority pursuit. If it were, how come 95% of system, but existing grammar schools do very well, and students in Japan already study in that way? Why do to abolish the most successful schools would be a mistake; many emerging countries aspire to study those subjects? we should improve the other schools instead. My point The system in Britain actively encourages students to is about how wide a choice students are given in each study subjects that provide little return. I was pleased to school. I am all for freeing up schools and enabling hear the announcement earlier by the Secretary of State them to select should they so desire. A school in my for Education that some of those qualifications will be constituency, for example, wants to select the 20% of removed from the league table, but I think we should go pupils who find school hardest. That is a good thing, further and also remove low-quality GCSEs and A-levels because it will put a group of learners together to study that are not equivalent to the more rigorous core subjects. and achieve academic qualifications. I am in favour of Our system hampers young people’s chances of going more flexibility, although I am not in favour of imposing to university, particularly our country’s top universities. mass-selection across the education system. Computer programming can be studied at Oxford, but I was speaking about examinations and how they it requires maths, not an A-level in information and have changed. One of my concerns is that in trying to communication technology. A student is 20 times more ensure that examinations are fair for all students, a lot likely to study A-level law if they attend a sixth-form of use of judgment has been removed. For example, college as opposed to a private school. If they take that rather than having multi-step questions in which a subject, however, it will not help them to study law at a student has to think about where they want to get to, we 497WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 498WH have one-step questions that ask for a simple response. The other point to make about Britain is that a study That has damaged the ability of young people to think, from Chicago showed that we have the largest differential be flexible and solve problems. between the teaching qualifications of teachers teaching Our system has also diminished the role of teachers, low-income and high-income students. We are actively who, for too long, have been forced to jump through giving worse teachers to low-income students compared hoops. We have a textbook regime; many textbooks are with other countries. The present Government have designed by exam boards and are essentially “how to” made excellent progress in reforming the supply side of guides on how to pass the exam, rather than engendering our education system—opening up academies, developing a deep knowledge and interest in the subject. I speak to the free schools programme and reforming the teaching a lot of teachers who spend their weekends preparing profession. I would like further reforms, including an lessons for the week ahead and essentially reinventing abolition of national pay bargaining. I would like teaching the wheel in subjects that have been taught for decades, to become a really well-respected profession, and would if not centuries. Teachers in other countries often use a like teachers to lead on some of the issues that I have respected textbook that enables students to study in been talking about. their own time, rather than only in the classroom. One However, the reform that we look to across our of our problems is that not enough responsibility for education system cannot be just about Government. study is given to the student; instead, it is passed to the We have been through 25 or 30 years of education system. The student is seen simply as a cog in the wheel, reforms that Governments have tried to drive from the or a sausage in the factory. A process that focuses on centre. That has happened under both Labour and getting through the exam encourages students to value Conservative Governments. It has shown that a wand education as a piece of paper, rather than as a way of cannot be waved by central Government. There must gaining and developing capability. be a change in education culture in this country, and I am an ardent free marketer, and in answer to the that must involve many institutions and people. One question by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin reason why I was so keen to have the debate today was Brennan), I generally support freedom. However, I question to open up the discussion, not just in Parliament but at our current set-up of examination boards, which is not national level, about what sort of education system we a free market but an oligopoly of three organisations in aspire to. a system. The innovation mentioned by those exam We need to end the mindset that trades off quality boards often involves innovating a race to the bottom and quantity. It is possible to have a high-quality, high- to put easier qualifications into schools. The system quantity education system. Countries such as Japan also involves an incredible amount of regulation from and Germany show that. Germany shows that it is Ofqual, which I have criticised in the past and which possible to reform a system that has previously educated consumes a lot of public money. There is a strong just the elite so that it becomes a much more broadly reason for us to look again at the examination system based system. The Germans are doing well on that and at how it can be better delivered. If we are to have basis. The English baccalaureate is a good start to national standards for exams such as the Ebac, and if focusing on the core subjects. We need to widen the we are to regulate exam boards, does it make sense to number of people taking it. Reporting it on a points have those three exam boards in their current structure? basis would be a good idea. Reporting how every student The issue of textbooks urgently needs to be addressed. does proportionally on the Ebac would be a good idea. We are one of the only countries in the world with this I would like that to be extended to A-levels, so that we exam board structure, and where textbooks are set by get rid of the divide in what A-levels students are the exam board. In my view, that is a conflict of interest. studying in different types of schools. It would be better if independent bodies produced There is a strong case for removing low-value textbooks that students could study, and with which A-levels and GCSEs from the league tables. I said they could take responsibility for their own learning. earlier that I thought that there was mis-selling of some I mentioned subject choice. I want particularly to vocational qualifications that were given the same address the issues relating to low-income students, because value as other qualifications. We are lying to students if one of the worst aspects of our educational performance we say that those qualifications are of equal weight and is how much we let down low-income students compared worth when they are not. All we are doing is putting with other countries. The OECD particularly highlighted our universities in a very difficult position, because that in its report; 77% of the performance in UK they are not getting the necessary applications. We are schools is down to socio-economic background. That is not getting people ready to enter the top universities the second highest percentage after Luxembourg. because they simply have not studied the necessary On the point about subject choice, someone at a subjects. private school or grammar school is twice as likely to study A-level maths as someone at a comprehensive Simon Hughes: I will intervene just once more; I have school, and three times as likely to study a modern come here specifically to hear the hon. Lady. Will she language. Students at comprehensives are seven times accept that another thing that might help—consensus more likely to study media studies than students at appears to be growing on this—would be for all schools private or grammar schools. What we have is essentially to have to publish information about their successes in a reintroduction of the secondary modern in our school widening participation and access? That would enable system. That huge segregation is a big problem. I have people to know where young people go on to from a met bright students who are studying subjects such as school—what they do after 16 when they have those psychology and media studies. Realistically, they will choices. Once we start showing that to the wider world, not have the opportunity to go to Russell group universities. people will start challenging those schools that have a We need seriously to address that. poverty of ambition and a poverty of aspiration. 499WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 500WH

Elizabeth Truss: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for is about having people who are cultured and enlightened, his intervention. I agree that transparency is the way and having a social country in which we live at peace forward. I would like every school to find its 10 brightest with one another in a culture of respect and tolerance. pupils and suggest to them that they apply to the top At individual level, there is no question but that education universities—Oxford and Cambridge and the Russell is the passport to a bigger choice in life and to social group universities—so that we monitor how many people mobility, that magic phrase that we often hear now. For are applying from each school. I plan to write to every me, nothing else fits the bill as well as education. school in my constituency, asking them how many Educational performance is about preparing not only students from their school applied to Oxford and for university, but life. My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge and encouraging such applications next year. South West Norfolk said that there is a risk of imbalance There are six secondary schools in South West Norfolk. between vocational and academic choices. Trying to say I am sure that there are six secondary schools in many that one degree is worth the same as, or a similar other hon. Members’ constituencies, and that is something amount to, another perhaps suggests that not going to we can all do. university means that one has failed in life. Far from it; My dad is an academic, so I was strongly encouraged we need people to develop all their talents in whatever in that direction, but many students at the Leeds way they can. comprehensive that I went to did not have aspirations in I genuinely believe that every child has talents that that direction and, frankly, a lot of teachers were not can be nurtured through school and later in life, but very supportive of those aspirations, perhaps because every child needs a good foundation in reading, writing they had not been to such a university themselves or and mathematics to allow them to succeed. There is no because they did not have any knowledge of them. one more disadvantaged than the voter I met in the There is a culture that needs to change, particularly in streets of my constituency the other day, who said that our comprehensive schools, so that those universities he could not read. He had struggled all his life to find are seen as a place for the brightest students in the work that did not involve him using his hands. I am not country, not just those who fit into a social perception. saying that he did not have a valuable skill, but how I have already talked about reforming the examinations much more he could have achieved! For instance, he system so that we stop the tail wagging the dog. It is could have set up his own business or something similar. important that we understand what subjects ought to Frankly, even Wayne Rooney and David Beckham need be examinable at that level, and ensure that the quality a good educational foundation if they are not to be holds, rather than allowing a system of downward reliant solely on their lawyers and accountants and are innovation, which is what we have seen in the past few to get the best out of them; they need to be conscious of years. that. I hope that this is the start of a debate. I am very I will not rattle off a lot of statistics. My hon. Friend pleased to see so many hon. Members here on a Thursday has already given us some good evidence, and I know afternoon. That shows the interest in the subject. Other that others are prepared to do so. Instead, I shall take countries have shown that it is possible to have a high-quality the House on a bit of a personal journey. I do not mass education system. We can do that here, but we pretend that my educational history is typical. I did my need a lot of things to change, and it is about time we first O-levels when I was 13; I then did some A-levels changed them. and finished my schooling in the constituency of the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg). 2.57 pm I went to university and then changed universities; I effectively stopped attending one and moved to another Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a because I could not cope with the way of learning at the pleasure to speak under your chairmanship for what I first. I then went on to do a PhD. I do not pretend that think is the first time, Mr Rosindell. I congratulate my that is typical, but during that journey I found out that, hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth in a way, standards have changed, and that is unfair on Truss) on securing the debate. I was delighted to support those who are slightly younger than me. That leads me her in securing it, and I thank the Backbench Business on to the challenges that the country is struggling with Committee for allocating the time. 20 years later. I know of them as a result of my science I will start with a quote that might ruffle your feathers, education. Mr Rosindell: “Education, education, education.”Perhaps I am old enough to have taken O-levels; I took them a that is the one thing on which I agreed with the former bit early in 1986. When I went on to do A-levels, I Prime Minister, Mr Blair—how important education is happened for whatever reason to do physics for a year. in our country. It is very important that we give our I was working with students from the lower and upper youngsters the best chance in life, to allow them to cast sixth forms, doing a combined kind of crash course. their net further and wider, so that they can reap a rich When I was with one group—I should keep up to date; catch in life and become big fish in a big pond, not we now call them year 12 students—I was often told, minnows in shark-infested waters. “Oh, Thérèse, you’ll have to do an extra half hour Education performance matters for our country at because year 12 does not need to learn that any more, different levels. At macro level, it is about preparing but you can add that topic during your extra learning people to be innovative, and making them ready for out of class.” That happened quite regularly throughout business and work—ready to be our future doctors, my physics A-level studies. nurses and teachers. It is about creating people who are Some might argue that I took a harder A-level, but flexible and skilled—people who will do the everyday that is not strictly fair. I genuinely believe that the jobs, as well as the ones that involve scanning the world year-on-year debate about A-levels, O-levels or GCSEs for new wealth to come to this country. At micro level, it not being as difficult as they used to be gives rise to a 501WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 502WH false argument about standards. I do not want to make grab the university course in year one. It is not that they this into a generational slanging match. I would not say were doing a remedial year, but they needed a foundation that those studying physics 20 years ago were any year at university. They could then continue. Some brighter than the youngsters doing it today, but the courses were perhaps not really four years; they were opportunity to stretch the learning, to stretch the three and a half years with an extended research project imagination, may now be constricted. The differentiation, to make up the time. As a consequence, students now with more children getting A and A* grades, is the spend four years at university, and with fees going up, result of youngsters today having to learn a lot less. that means more money being spent on university courses. Frankly, if children now have to learn their times tables It would be honest to ask whether A-levels are at the only up to three, when before they had to learn them up right standard for entry to university, so that we ensure to 12, it does not surprise me that more children now that we do not leave the universities with the challenge get their sums right. of making up the gap. The Russell group universities have done a great service to schools and teachers—and, Mr Mark Field: I am sorry to interrupt my hon. most importantly, students and parents—with their Friend’s journey. As she is a Liverpudlian, it must have brochure “Informed Choices”, in which they give a list been a magical mystery tour. Although I agree with of subjects. The facilitating subjects are maths, English, much of what she says, I am not sure that she is correct physics, biology, chemistry, geography, history and about the exam system. There has been an utter debasing languages, classic and modern. The Russell group believes of the results system over the past 20 years in GCSE that those building blocks allow students to go on to do and O and A-level exams. The results are now largely almost any subject. I accept that those who want to do a discredited, and there needs to be an urgent rethink. As degree in art need to study art, and that it would the hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth probably help those who want to do music if they have Truss) said, someone who got a grade E in an A-level studied a bit of music on the way, but for most degrees, exam only a decade and a half ago could now receive a it almost does not matter what subjects have been taken mark as high as grade B. That does not allow great at A-level; students simply need the ability to think and confidence in the system. There has been a debasing of to analyse, as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member the system, and we need to consider it afresh. for South West Norfolk.

Dr Coffey: I fully accept what my hon. Friend says, Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I am not but I am trying not to turn this into an inter-generational sure whether my hon. Friend was in the Chamber slanging match. There is nothing worse than getting yesterday when the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy these wonderful results in August and then, all of a Burnham) said that he had no idea where the subjects sudden and from whatever quarter—not from politicians that made up the English baccalaureate could possibly but from others—people say, “Oh well, standards are have come from. Would the list from the Russell group getting lower.” I imagine that that is really hurtful to university be a suitable response? those receiving their results because, frankly, they are doing the best they can with the course and the exams Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend is right. I hope that the that are set. It is not their fault, and I agree with my right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has read hon. Friend that we need to challenge the education the brochure; I shall be sure to send him a copy. I do not establishment and the Government. doubt that some of the softer subjects mentioned, such That brings me to another part of my speech. We as media, photography and business studies, are popular. should not be ashamed to challenge the education I see them when I visit sixth forms in my constituency, establishment, and even ask it to pause and reflect, in and I accept that they are valid A-levels. I do not decry order to improve educational standards and performance. them, but we need to get the message across to students The Government are already doing that with elements that such subjects will not necessarily lead them to the of the English baccalaureate. We saw it also with the wider choice of career and life to which they may aspire. acceleration of academies under the previous Government. It may take them down a narrow career path, and they I note that academies have longer school days, and that should be fully aware of that. they build other activities into their school day; school is no longer a half-past 8 to 3 o’clock existence, with Kevin Brennan: Given what the hon. Lady has said, pupils then being sent out. Academies allow a much does she think that I wasted 10 years of my life teaching wider existence; they are building an education for the A-level economics? entire person, not just slotting pupils into classes. I accept what my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of Dr Coffey: I would not say that the hon. Gentleman London and Westminster (Mr Field) said, but I do not had wasted any of his life, although if he had had the want to attack the young people or teachers of today, right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath because they are already in the system. It is our role to (Mr Brown) as a pupil, we might be in a better place challenge it and to get it changed. today. However, I studied a bit of economics at university, Stepping back a little further, I am sure that many and I can assure hon. Members that I did not do A-level Members who went to university did three-year degree economics beforehand. As to whether someone teaching courses. I did my BSc in three years. Just as I was business studies at school will have ever run a business, I finishing my PhD, I saw that many universities were do not know, but that may well be a possibility with starting to move to four-year courses, and that is now Teach First and Teach Next. almost the standard; the degree is now called MSci. Although not many universities will say so, the reason Elizabeth Truss: When I speak to economics academics for the change is that when students had finished their at university, it is interesting that they often say that A-levels, they did not have enough of the curriculum to they would rather that people did mathematics than 503WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 504WH

[Elizabeth Truss] need—indeed, we collectively need—a good supply of well-educated, well-motivated and engaged employees economics as a precursor to the subject. There is a at every level. They need not only the ability to learn, question about what level we are studying subjects at, but the basic core skills to make their way in the world. and that is particularly true of law. One thing that As a former governor of a secondary school, I care economics— deeply about the school system and the service that it provides to society. I want to ensure that we always Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Order. I remind the recognise and applaud schools’ efforts. hon. Lady that she should make brief interventions The Government have made great headway in the rather than a second speech. short time they have been in post. I particularly welcome today’s statement from my right hon. Friend the Secretary Dr Coffey: My hon. Friend was perhaps going on to of State for Education on Professor Wolf’s report. say that we should never forget mathematics as one of However, there are other good things to celebrate, including the core subjects. the £2.5 billion for the pupil premium, the emphasis on Kevin Brennan: In defence of economics, I should say vigorous and rigorous academic attainment, the that it is a rigorous academic subject, and mathematics encouragement given to schools to go for academy is an extremely important skill to bring to the study of status and the fact that we are attracting more good it. However, when a subject is left out of prescriptive graduates into the teaching profession. We also recognise lists such as the one the hon. Lady mentioned, we can the value of high-quality vocational education. understand why that can be insulting to some people—not I want to focus on three issues. The first is the role of to me, but to those who study it. the head teacher in improving education performance. It is universally recognised that good schools have good Dr Coffey: I understand that point. The hon. Gentleman head teachers. An energetic, dynamic head teacher really will know the famous joke that there are different kinds sets a school’s ethos. Their energy can drive forward of economists: ones who can count and ones who improvements, and they set the framework in which the cannot. However, I think the Russell group is trying to school functions. help students and parents in choosing options. That can One key aspect of that framework is discipline across be early in someone’s life—we have talked about children the whole school, which is as much about the staff as it aged 11, and some people have talked about even younger is about the students. If a head sets out clear and high children. If people are not careful, they can narrow expectations of the staff, that can quickly filter down their choices later in life, which would be a shame. The into the student body. The consistent application of Russell group is doing people a good service by making school rules means that everyone knows precisely where sure that they fully understand the choices they make. they stand. If that ethos is instilled in staff and students We are talking not about people making poor choices, from day one, it can avert the problems that students but about people deciding not to do certain subjects in may otherwise have had later in their school careers. the full, conscious knowledge that that will restrict them later in life. Teachers, too, have to set down clear guidance for behaviour and stick to it. Whether that guidance relates The hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) to uniform policy, behavioural standards or classroom mentioned selection. I am not suggesting that we return etiquette, it must be consistent. A flaky approach to to selection, but I do praise efforts to differentiate and discipline undermines students so that they do not to ensure that people reach their full potential. One know where they stand from one day to the next. If school I attended was a grammar school; it was not a schools get their approach right, that can dramatically particularly flash grammar school, but it produced improve their performance. We must recognise and Lord Birt, Roger McGough and Brendan Barber, who accept that the head teacher plays a vital role in that. have all gone on to do extremely well in their chosen fields. Mr Mark Field: I entirely agree. In our time as The Government have an opportunity to put the Members of Parliament, all of us will have visited United Kingdom—particularly England and Wales—back schools, and the single most important difference between at the top of the class. We need an A* and we need well-performing schools, which have positive results “education, education, education”to be the Government’s and a positive attitude among parents, and less well- mantra. I am confident that we can carry on this performing schools is the leadership of the head teacher, journey, but I hope that we will accelerate and that the as my hon. Friend rightly said. Does he not agree, three R’s will no longer be a dirty word, but the founding however, that clamping down on paucity of aspiration, blocks of a successful education. which was mentioned earlier, and having zero tolerance for it, is an important part of that leadership? 3.13 pm Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) Stephen Metcalfe: Absolutely—I agree 100%. I picked (Con): Thank you, Mr Rosindell, for calling me to on discipline as one aspect of the framework that a speak in this vital debate. It is a pleasure to speak under head teacher can put in place in a school, but aspiration, your chairmanship. energy, drive and ensuring that all staff want to get the I want to focus on the improving performance of maximum out of every pupil they come into contact schools in our education system. I speak as a parent, an with are also vital. There are other things, but I wanted employer and a former governor of a large secondary to focus particularly on discipline. school. As a parent, I know that it is vital to us all that Unfortunately, a good teacher does not always make our children make the most of the opportunities they a good head teacher, because the two roles require very have and meet their full potential. As an employer, I different skills. I therefore want to ask the Government 505WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 506WH to examine a system that would allow for greater movement of each and every student, makes the most of their across the senior management team. I am aware of talents and helps them to find their true vocation and senior managers—members of a school’s top team—who motivation. For some, that may be a rigorous academic may have had excellent pastoral skills and data manipulation university or higher education experience, but for others skills, but who have been promoted to the role of head it will be high-quality vocational work, other employment only to find that they did not have the entire skill set to or apprenticeships. We must find some way of judging do the job. whether schools are making the most of the potential Unfortunately, the school and the individual are then they are given. Although competition can drive up left with few options. There is always the nuclear option standards, it is not the be-all and end-all. We must of going down the competency route, but that is a remind schools that it is not about being better than the painful experience for the individual and the school, school down the road, but about being better at making and it normally results in someone who was a highly the most of the potential of the people in their care and skilled professional leaving the service, which means delivering on it. that we have lost a good teacher, their skills and their We must accept that the potential that pupils come commitment. Just because someone cannot be a good through our education system with each year will vary. leader and a head in a school, that does not make them It is highly unrealistic to expect a good school to deliver a bad teacher. I would therefore very much like to find a year-on-year improvements in exam results. Surely we flexible system that would allow someone to recognise must accept that different cohorts—year groups—have that they are perhaps in the wrong role. different potential and therefore different outcomes. If we do not and we end up in the trap of expecting exam Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Is my hon. Friend aware results to be higher and higher every year, people, that in Australia, after someone has been in a job for 10 rightly, will begin to lose faith in the system because it or so years, they are entitled to a year or six months off? does not reflect real-world experience. I think that that is true in most walks of life. It is We are not saying that students are any brighter now certainly true in most professions, including teaching. than they were 10 or 20 years ago. Although there have The state provides for that by taking a section of salary been improvements in how we deliver education, it is to ensure that the person is paid throughout the period. unrealistic to expect that to go on and on. If a school The benefits to a teacher are that they have a break and consistently achieves good results, one or two poor an opportunity to go elsewhere, perhaps into industry performances do not necessarily mean that it is failing. I or whatever, and they come back refreshed. It also ask that we expand how we compare and judge schools means that everybody is in a position to act up in in a way that looks at every pupil and their performance another position to gain experience of being a head and experience in the school. We could use the contextual teacher or head of department, which is fantastically value added measure more often, and educate the public valuable. about its potential value to create greater understanding in society, so that parents and pupils can better understand Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Order. I remind the what a particular school can deliver. hon. Lady that interventions should be brief. She is not Thirdly, a good experience across the whole education on my list to speak. I would have considered putting her system is important. I am fortunate in my constituency on my list if she had asked me to do so, but a long to have six secondary schools all of which are performing speech should not be dressed up as an intervention. or about to perform very well under excellent leadership— vigorous, dynamic and energetic. The one concern that Tessa Munt: Forgive me. is repeatedly expressed to me is that when schools receive their year 7 pupils, it takes time to prepare them Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): You are forgiven. for the rest of their school career in secondary education. They have to bring them up to speed, which can sometimes Stephen Metcalfe: I am aware of the system my hon. last well into the second year of secondary school Friend mentions, and she is right that it is along those education. That is not unique to my patch. There are lines, but it is about more than that. reasons for it, including issues about communication When an individual recognises that they have entered between primary and secondary school, but we must a role that they cannot fulfil properly, they are trapped. put greater emphasis on the importance of primary If we adopted a system that allowed them to move back education so that we attract the best teachers into the to their original role or transfer to a similar one, without early years. losing their skills in the profession, it would create a I suspect that when a teacher is training and looking system that could allow more movement in senior at where they want to place themselves within the management, which would ensure that we got the right education system, those with more rigorously challenging people in leadership positions more quickly. As we academic degrees will look to teach in secondary schools. accept, good leadership leads to good schools and we We need to bring some of that excellence into the whole want to ensure that the right people are in the right of our education system. There are many excellent roles. teachers and heads in our primary system, but that does Secondly, we must remember that education is about not mean that we cannot do more. I would like to think the students, not about the school, and we have touched that we can make primary education as attractive as upon that. Performance tables and comparisons among secondary. schools with similar backgrounds can be useful and We also need to encourage more collaboration among help to drive improvement in performance, but we must primary schools. Many primary, infant and junior schools not forget that at the heart of it lies the student. We all are quite small, and we need to encourage them to work want to create a system that maximises the full potential more closely with their secondary schools and other 507WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 508WH

[Stephen Metcalfe] science and reading. There are issues about its methodology and about the new entrants that were not in previous schools in the system, to see if the intimacy and familiarity studies, but I will not dwell on them. I share the concern that they enjoy as a small school can be maintained of the hon. Lady and others that we clearly still face a while benefiting from the ability to share resources, staff very big challenge. and perhaps even head teachers. The recruitment and The hon. Lady referred to Shanghai, which is a part retention of good head teachers is particularly a problem of China that was not in the previous PISA table in for small schools. I would like to think that we can find 2009 and that went straight in to the current table at a way to encourage local education authorities and No. 1, which is what they used to say on the top 40. It is schools to work more closely across the whole education now top of the PISA league table for maths, science and system to see if we can deliver a better experience for all reading. Clearly, there are lessons that we need to learn students. from that part of the world. Education is one of the most important gifts we can give our children. A good education that suits an individual’s Kevin Brennan: Let me caution my hon. Friend on strengths and talents will help them to make the most of this matter and recommend that he read the article in a life full of opportunities. It falls to all of us to ensure The New Yorker, which asked whether help had been that we do what we can to help schools to deliver that given to those taking the tests in Shanghai. improving educational performance. We must recognise the vital role that they play in the future prosperity and Stephen Twigg: I will read that article. success not only of our country, but of our children. Whenever we discuss test scores, there is always this argument about whether people are being taught to the 3.27 pm test. Of course there are other pieces of research that show rather different outcomes. I know that this has Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): been referred to in previous debates, but the trends in I apologise for being late for this important debate and I international mathematics and science study, which does congratulate the hon. Member for South West Norfolk not cover English or reading, looked at scores in years 3 (Elizabeth Truss)on initiating it. I also congratulate the and 9 between 1995 and 2007. In terms of progress in hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who I both mathematics and science, the United Kingdom assume went to St Eddie’s in my constituency, and the was towards the top of the most improved countries in hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock the world. (Stephen Metcalfe). The starting point of my contribution is the importance Elizabeth Truss: I mentioned TIMSS earlier. Part of of us all taking seriously the available evidence and data the concern about TIMSS is that it is based on the about education performance. It may be legitimate self- curriculum of a particular country. It is not a standardised criticism for all of us, wherever we stand in terms of our test that people sit across countries in the way that PISA parties or on the issues discussed today, to say that we is. Moreover, France and Germany did not take part in all have instincts and prejudices. We all went to school, that study. We were still trailing all the Asian tigers, many of us have children at school and we all have such as Japan and Hong Kong. schools in our constituencies. Understandably, those things, as well as our political philosophies, inform our Mel Stride rose— outlook on school policy, but we need to supplement those instincts and prejudices by looking at the data Stephen Twigg: Allow me to respond to the hon. and evidence. Lady and then I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he still wishes to intervene. Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): The hon. Gentleman From the information that I have in front of me, I can rightly points to the importance of evidence when see that the hon. Lady is correct in what she said about comparing countries, so is he a little concerned that we Germany and France. As for Japan, we performed were not listed in the 2003 PISA results because schools better in science and mathematics in year 3-4 and year did not provide the requisite amount of information? 8. I accept her point about the validity of different Does he welcome the fact that this Government will forms of comparative research. None the less, on TIMSS, make it mandatory for schools to provide such information? we were ahead of Japan and the United States. I know what she will say to that. What I am measuring is the Stephen Twigg: The hon. Gentleman anticipates the improvement on the absolute score. After the improvement, next part of my speech. I absolutely share his concern. we are still slightly behind Japan, but in that period we In fact, I was Schools Minister at the time—I do not improved faster than Japan, although from a lower base. know whether he intervened on me with that knowledge— and I remember the difficult conversations we had to Mel Stride: Is it not the case that our apparent have. The subsequent judgment was that the figures, for improvements in the TIMSS can to some degree be both 2000 and 2003 I think, were invalid because there attributed to the fact that the cohort of countries that were not sufficient schools. All we have to compare is we are looking at in each year has changed and that a 2006 with 2009. number of non-OECD African and Asian countries The hon. Member for South West Norfolk spoke have entered in more recent times, thus slightly flattering about PISA before I came into the Chamber. I apologise our figures? for missing what she said. The Secretary of State has spoken about the PISA outcomes on a number of Stephen Twigg: I do not believe so. I am relying on occasions. Clearly, we must all share his concern about the particular table in front of me. In each case, it how low down the PISA league table we are for maths, examines a country that was in the 1995 cohort and the 509WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 510WH

2007 cohort. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman’s Elizabeth Truss: In response to the hon. Member for criticism is valid. The hon. Lady’s implied criticism is a Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), we are not arguing that fairer one because I was relying on the improvement. the standards have necessarily gone down, but rather She is right to say that, if we look at the absolute score that the standards in other countries are going up for Japan, it is, in every case, slightly better than ours, faster. That is the key issue. but we have made a greater improvement in that period. Interestingly, the United States is behind us on not just Kevin Brennan: In one study. improvement but the absolute score in every case. Elizabeth Truss: From a whole series of studies, including Mr Mark Field: In the midst of this battle over TIMSS. evidence—I accept that evidence is important and that getting the figures right does matter—surely the hon. Stephen Twigg: I am not sure whether TIMSS shows Gentleman does not disagree with the assertion of my that, but I want to move on. When the hon. Lady spoke hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth about China, she mentioned the cultural attitude to Truss) that there is a problem. We are going down the education, and that is clearly a factor. We know that in league table, although perhaps not by as many places as our own country from the data for achievement by might have been predicted. More importantly though, ethnicity. Chinese and Indian children consistently there is a lack of rigour in the choice of subjects that the outperform all other sections of the population in tests average student is taking for A-level. We are not looking and exams, even when they are from the poorest families, at academic subjects in the way we were in the past, and as measured by free school meals, so there clearly are that is in stark contrast to many of our most important cultural factors. economic rivals in the 21st century. In my remaining time, I will say a little about progress over time and highlight some successes in Liverpool. I Stephen Twigg: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that will say a little about the factors that shape success and intervention. At the end of the hon. Lady’s speech, she then something about learning from elsewhere. I want said that there is no contradiction between a high-quality to say a bit about Teach First and about the US and and a high-quantity education system, and that is something Swedish experience of chartered schools and free schools with which I passionately agree. I do not necessarily respectively and then finish by saying something about agree with everything that she said in constructing that Ebac and the surrounding debate around measuring argument, but I certainly believe that we should be achievement. aspiring to that. Let me take up something that the hon. Lady said Between 1997 and 2010, we saw a significant and that has also been said by other Government Members. improvement in the scores in the key stage tests—the We face a real challenge in changing the attitude of SATS—A-levels and GCSEs. The national improvement many state comprehensive schools to getting their brightest in the five A* to C measure was from 32% in 1997 to kids into Oxbridge. As someone who went from a 55% in 2010. I wanted to use that fact to pay particular comprehensive school to Oxford—okay, it was quite a tribute to the schools in Liverpool, which improved by a long time ago, as the hon. Gentleman will know—I more significant margin—from a miserable 24% in 1997 relied on a particular teacher who mentored and encouraged to 53% last year, which was just two points below the me. He studied philosophy, politics and economics at national average. Linked to that, because of the success Oxford and I was doing A-level economics. Without that those children and young people have had in their him, I am not sure whether I would have made that GCSE results, more of them are staying on at school or application. I do not think that that situation has changed college after the age of 16. Nationally, there has been an as much in the subsequent 25 years as I would like. It is improvement from 64% in 1997, just below two-thirds, not just about Oxbridge, but if we are rightly to criticise to 79% last year, just below four-fifths. Again, in Liverpool, Oxbridge for the comparatively low numbers of state there was much more significant improvement, from school kids getting in, part of the challenge is for the just over 50% in 1997 to 78% last year. schools as well as for Oxbridge. There is a very important debate to be had about why those rates are changing. I agree with the hon. Member Kevin Brennan: We are all in danger of confessing our for South West Norfolk that improving educational educational backgrounds. I also went to a comprehensive performance is not just about Governments waving a school and ended up studying PPE at Oxford. That just magic wand. We will always have a debate about resources. shows how predictable MPs are. Resources are not the focus of today’s debate, but spending is clearly a factor. There is also a debate to be Stephen Twigg: Did my hon. Friend study A-level had about the appropriate accountability measures and economics? I will return later to that issue. However, improving educational performance is actually about what happens Kevin Brennan: Yes, I studied A-level economics and at the school level and the local level. We know that, got an A in case anybody asks. Cambridge Assessment because we know that schools with very similar intakes sent me an article this week about the PISA studies in that have very similar amounts of money spent on them which Andreas Schleicher, who is often cited by the perform very differently from each other. Improving Secretary of State as his hero, seemed to suggest that educational performance cannot be only about the context there is no evidence of decline in English pupil performance. or the amount of money that is spent, although clearly both those things matter. Stephen Twigg: I think I will move on from this part I agree with the hon. Member for South Basildon and of my speech, partly because a lot of Members want to East Thurrock that the head teacher in a school is participate in the debate. critical. The quality of leadership around and below the 511WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 512WH

[Stephen Twigg] However, the evidence about the impact on standards of those schools is mixed. There have been a number of position of head teacher is also important. Governors studies in New York that suggest there has been real are important, too; the hon. Gentleman referred to his improvement in the charter schools compared with own role as a governor. All those positions are also non-charter schools and that in particular some of the vital. poorest children from ethnic minorities have done better Let us consider what we can learn from elsewhere, than they might have done otherwise. On the other because it is important that we examine all the evidence hand, the Center for Research on Education Outcomes available. I have praised the Government for the expansion at Stanford university published a report in 2009 that of Teach First. One of the earliest decisions that I had suggested that there is a much more mixed picture to make when I became a Minister in 2002 was about across the US, including significant state-by-state variation. whether we should support a programme that was That suggests that the extra autonomy granted to those initially called Teach for London, but eventually became schools may in itself bring benefits—but there are clearly the Teach First programme. We can learn a great deal other factors at play in addition to that extra autonomy, from the Teach First programme. which help to determine whether those schools are successful or less successful. The hon. Member for South West Norfolk—or perhaps it was one of her colleagues—spoke about the attractiveness In some ways, the picture in Sweden is quite similar. of teaching in some of the toughest schools and how The Swedish free schools are popular with parents. One the best teachers often may not want to teach in them. piece of research that I looked at showed higher grade As I say, Teach First began in London before expanding point averages in free schools compared with those to other parts of the country and the whole basis of the achieved in other Swedish schools. It has been suggested programme was to place some of the brightest graduates that in an area with a concentration of free schools, from some of the top universities in some of the toughest there was a wider positive impact. On the other hand, inner-city schools in London as teachers. other significant studies that I looked at earlier today suggest that there has been a general worsening of Some of the examples of teachers who have gone performance in the Swedish school system in recent through the Teach First programme are truly remarkable. years, so that it is perhaps the case that the free schools Moreover, the number of teachers who went through have not delivered the national system-wide improvement the programme and stayed in the education world rather in Sweden that their proponents originally anticipated. than following other careers that are probably much Furthermore, there is real concern in Sweden—this is better paid has been another truly remarkable achievement. different from the experience in the US of the charter Research by Manchester university shows that schools school system—that the gaps in terms of socio-economic in challenging circumstances where Teach First graduates achievement have widened in the country. Admittedly, are first placed have seen a statistically significant those gaps in Sweden have always been much narrower improvement in their GCSE results and that there is a than the gaps in the UK, so I still think that we have a positive correlation between the degree of improvement lot to learn from Sweden and from some of the other at GCSE level and the number of Teach First graduates Scandinavian countries. Nevertheless, we still need to in a school. tread with care on both sides of this debate, because I Teach First is a great programme and a great example have heard both advocates of the Government’s proposals of learning from another country, because it was modelled and critics of them somewhat overstating the case for or on a scheme in the US that enjoys strong cross-party against by citing evidence from the US and Sweden. As support. Whatever else happens in the field of education I said, the evidence from those countries is decidedly policy, we should all continue to support and encourage mixed. the further expansion of the Teach First programme. There is a very difficult debate to be had about how Having said that, I should add that there is a need to we measure how well schools are doing—and, indeed, be cautious when we are studying school reform movements how such measurement can itself have an impact on in other parts of the world. When the case is made for what happens in schools. That is really the debate about the Government’s policy on free schools and academies, Ebac. That is a very difficult debate; I do not think that great emphasis is placed on the experience of the US it is easy or straightforward at all. The hon. Member for charter schools and the Swedish free schools. In preparation South Basildon and East Thurrock said something that for today’s debate, I have looked at some of the evidence I passionately agree with—that we should make the from the US and Sweden, and I think that it is fair to contextual value added the key indicator of schools. He say that the evidence from both countries is mixed. then added a very important caveat by saying that we I think that the Secretary of State for Education and must also find a way to make CVA understood. I the Minister who is here today have both referred to a remember that when I was a Minister I said, “Why can’t US programme called KIPP, which is the Knowledge is people see that the value that this school is adding is Power Project. I had an opportunity to visit KIPP actually far more significant than the raw score?” But schools in New York and Texas some time ago and I people did not look at the value that was being added. was hugely impressed by what was being achieved in They looked at the raw score. those schools. KIPP schools are a great example of how The dilemma that all of us who care about education some of these new, more autonomous schools in the US policy face is how we best measure schools and how we are delivering, particularly for children from some of ensure that that measurement does not distort choices. I the poorest backgrounds. There is no doubt that both am concerned about Ebac, but that is not because I am the US charter schools and the Swedish free schools are not passionate about history, geography and modern hugely popular with the parents of the children who foreign languages; I am passionate about all three of attend them. those subjects. However, I am not convinced that making 513WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 514WH them compulsory for all children, which could happen Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): May I suggest that as a consequence of the Ebac, or emphasising them Members try to restrict their remarks to something in over other subjects, is necessarily the wisest way to the region of 10 minutes? If that happens, there is a encourage more children to have a passion for, and chance that everyone can be called and have a chance to therefore to learn, foreign languages, history and geography. contribute to the debate. The jury is out. We need to look at that issue further. As a Minister, I had some responsibility for the work 3.51 pm that we did on modern foreign languages after they were made optional. I had mixed views. In the end, I Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) think that it was probably right that they were made (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for optional. What we sought to do was to encourage South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on securing this primary schools to take up modern foreign language extremely important debate. I shall try to make my teaching. We have seen a big expansion in such teaching comments even briefer than you have asked us to, in our primary schools in recent years. I hope that that Mr Rosindell. The debate has been very interesting and will result in primary schoolchildren having a passion we have touched on a lot of issues to do with aspiration, for foreign languages and that they maintain that passion but I just want to say a little about education for as they go on to secondary school. That was the thinking excellent pupils, a matter about which the Minister and behind encouraging language teaching in primary schools. I had a brief exchange on the Floor of the House only yesterday. I can understand the desire of a new Government It is, I think, in a bid to dampen some of the political who are in a hurry to do something quick on Ebac, but furore over tuition fees that fresh debate has recently I worry that it is effectively being introduced retrospectively. emerged over access to our best universities. As everyone As I said in the Education Bill debate yesterday, there has been admitting which university they went to, I are schools in my constituency that are getting year should say that I, too, was at Oxford but, as I had the 10 pupils who are midway through the year to change misfortune—at least in the eyes of the hon. Member for subjects so that they do Ebac subjects, because the Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan)—of coming from a grammar school thinks that it will be measured by the performance school, I did not do a Mickey Mouse subject such as in those subjects. I am not convinced that that will PPE, but read law—[Interruption.] Yes, I know, it has either prepare those children well for the world of work been downhill all the way from there. or give them a passion for those subjects that they have been told they must switch to. It has been suggested that the Government would grant permission to charge more than £6,000 a year in I will finish by referring to the other thing that I agree fees only to universities willing to widen their intake, with the hon. Member for South Basildon and East and suggestions of measures to avoid penalties have Thurrock about—the importance of recognising that included lowering grade offers and taking background progress takes time. The political and educational cycles into account when handing out places. We all know are not exactly the same. When the Minister responds to that, in practice, that could mean preferring a less-qualified the debate, he will say that of course the Government pupil from an inner-city comprehensive over a student want to see progress. We were the same when we were in with top grades from an independent school. It is not government. clear how that might objectively be regarded as fair or We all want that progress for good reasons; it is not evidence-based, but I suspect that it was hoped that the only to gain political kudos, but because all of us are airing of such plans might take the sting out of any passionate about children and young people being able accusations that the new fees system was making our to do well at school, so that they are fully equipped and higher education system too elitist. have the best possible chances later in life. However, we I have long contended, and will continue to, that our often expect change in schools to happen too quickly. education system cannot be elitist enough. For far too We set hurdles that cannot be crossed. As the hon. long, the British attitude has been one of slight Gentleman said, schools cannot necessarily improve embarrassment and discomfort at the notion of high every year, because they have a different set of children performance, excellence and the pursuit of academic each year. That is not an excuse for failure; it is just a rigour. I am not sure that the rest of the world feels the recognition of reality. same, at a time when the likes of India and China are When we assess how well schools do, let us look at relentlessly pushing forward in global league tables. The subjects beyond English and maths, but let us not lose two economic superpowers of this century have the that vital core of literacy and numeracy. Let us look at a pursuit of excellence and academic rigour at the heart school’s progress over the previous five years, and let us of their thinking. look at value added—at how well particular children do The domestic access-regulation plans have also betrayed at age 16 compared with how they do at age 11. an expectation that politicians seem to have had in I very much welcome the opportunity I have had to recent years that our higher education system should participate in this debate, and I apologise for taking a somehow miraculously make up for the lack of genuine bit longer than other Members. However, as I am the attainment by children in their primary and secondary- only Member on the Opposition Back Benches today, I school years, particularly in the state sector. If universities can assure everyone that everything I have said is on fail to take in students who are not up to the mark, we behalf of all Labour Back Benchers. It is vital that we blame not a child’s upbringing or education but the regularly debate education because, in spite of our real university itself for being too exclusive. policy differences, we all know that education is vital if The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen we are to be a successful economy and a fairer society Twigg) and I were almost contemporaries at Oxford, with greater social mobility. and he will remember the outreach efforts that our 515WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 516WH

[Mr Mark Field] Yesterday, I spoke briefly in the House about the importance of looking after the special educational colleges made almost three decades ago, which have needs of the most gifted children in the state sector, in continued—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman went the same way as we strive to help children who are less up in 1985 and I went up in 1984, so it was almost three gifted, because all too often their needs are ignored. My decades ago. Even at that time, tremendous efforts were words provoked an e-mail later that afternoon from a made by the student union and, more importantly, by teacher in Norfolk: colleges via their tutors, to open up access. It is worth “What a breath of fresh air it was for me, as a retired educator, putting that on the record. to hear your intervention. My wife and I are both graduate I do not believe that universities have an innate bias teachers who have experienced at first hand the consequences of an absence of special provision for the brightest of our pupils, to towards students from independent schools, but our top the serious detriment of their educational development and realisation institutions are international leaders with worldwide of their full potential, not to mention that of wider society. The reputations for excellence, which they aspire to maintain. needs of the talented must be formally brought under the SEN In their admissions policies, they most pride themselves purview and schools and Ofsted should be expressly required to on recruiting the brightest and best globally. If the give as much attention to these needs as to those of lower brightest and best have a tendency to come from a achievers.” particular sort of school, we might be wise first to I ask the Minister to give greater consideration to that examine the deep shortcomings of the state sector. issue. We want to retain the most gifted students in our That the private education sector has so flourished in state schools, bring them to their full potential and use recent years is a mark of how many parents have lost them as exemplars for other students, so that a golden faith in the state’s ability to deliver their child a rigorous, thread of aspiration is sewn through each and every thorough and excellent education. When articulate, active school, as has been suggested by a number of other parents turn away, local state schools lose the key Members. stakeholders that have traditionally helped to drive I am the product of a grammar school, and I remember improvement. As a result, the poorest and most vulnerable various episodes when I was there that allowed me to children suffer, and they will not be helped by the state’s aspire to the university place to which my parents could facilitating places for them at the best universities if never aspire, and also to running my own business, they do not have the tools to make use of such places. becoming professionally qualified and eventually becoming a Member of this House. We must push pupils upwards Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I cannot make a and not hold back their talents. lengthy intervention, but my mind has been shifted I finish this brief contribution by returning to a somewhat, on the topic that my hon. Friend is addressing, theme that runs through so many of my speeches, but by a visit to King’s college London, one of the universities which nevertheless is important to drive home once in his constituency. I urge him to visit the medical again. Our wont in recent years has been to tinker with department there and see for himself the fantastic work our educational system to engineer particular social being done with state school students with lower grades outcomes, but the attitudes of our competing nations who are enrolled on the extended medical degree. They could not be more different; my hon. Friend the Member struggle not with the science but with some lifestyle for South West Norfolk covered that matter skilfully factors which, with additional support, they are able to and in great detail. It is that sense of being in a highly overcome. competitive globalised world that will, and should, remain an important element of all our thinking. One need look only at the high number of highly skilled school Mr Field: I very much accept that. I have visited leavers and graduates, not just in India and China but in King’s college on a number of occasions and get on Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore, to understand very well with the authorities there. Funnily enough, a that the world is not waiting for Britain to churn out the lot of the evidence suggests that medicine is one of the brightest and best any more. very few subjects in which a lot of the comparators about school performance and expected academic In my 10 years as a local MP, I have regularly visited performance at degree level break down to a certain primary and secondary schools and higher education extent. I suspect that King’s had that very much in mind establishments to talk to students. Contrary to the when it set up its very innovative and important programme. negative image of young people sometimes portrayed in the media, I am always impressed by students’ sharp It seems to me, however, that the relentless focus of and inquisitive minds. Our country is brimming with the Minister, who I know has a passion for driving up talent, including here in our inner cities. That talent standards, should be on giving state sector students the exists to be developed and can compete with the likes of tools they need to compete on a level playing field with India and China in the decades ahead, but that will their peers in the independent sector, and I admire a lot happen only if we pursue excellence relentlessly and of the work that he is doing in that regard. He instinctively equip our young people with the tools to take on their understands the damage that has been done in recent peers. We do everyone a disservice by suggesting that years by the levelling down of standards and opportunities there are shortcuts in this world. to the lowest common denominator that has so entrenched underachievement. I particularly praise him for his emphasis on phonics, which is an essential learning 4pm tool. Given my experience of day-to-day life with a Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): It is a pleasure to three-and-a-half-year-old son, I can entirely vouch for serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I congratulate what the Minister has said on that matter. In some my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk respects, however, the Government could be more radical (Elizabeth Truss) and her colleagues on securing this in promoting choice and competition in the state sector. debate. 517WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 518WH

I will not comment further on standards and international honest with students and their families—by taking such comparisons, because those points have been well made. subjects, students set themselves on a vocational route The decline in standards in certain subjects and the in life. decline in the study of foreign languages at GCSE level, In Stourbridge, just 25% of students now take history to less than 50%, are worrying. The problem has many at GCSE level, and fewer than 20% take geography. I do causes. not believe that only 25% of children in my constituency The first thing that strikes me from my experience as are academically gifted enough to be challenged a school and university governor is that our expectations intellectually and be candidates for top universities. of students at independent and academically selective The prevailing culture militates against improving state schools are very different from our expectations of educational performance. Too many of us have talked students educated in the state comprehensive sector. As in euphemisms about education. We have doled out politicians, we regularly congratulate our schools for excessive praise for mediocre performance, and we have increasing the percentage of pupils who pass five GCSEs eroded competitive sport by declaring no winners and withaCgradeorabove,including in English and prizes for all. Instead, we should stress that gain without maths, yet for those of us who aspire to send our own pain is rare. Hard work, study, the pursuit of excellence children to independent schools or pray that they get and the productive use of time, including leisure time, into state academically selective schools, that is an should be imbued in all our children, as they are imbued uncomfortable, almost hypocritical situation to find in the children at our independent and academically ourselves in. selective schools. We celebrate that standard, yet if it were applied to our own children, we would be aghast. For students in The last of the myriad roots of the problem that I independent or academically selective schools, the standard shall address is the restrictions on schools involved in is nine or 11 A grades, and we ask how many are A*. contracts between schools and teachers, which I trust There will be a smattering of Bs, but not many. That the academies and free schools will help overcome. division is intolerable. One would not expect the same Under the present system, it is virtually impossible for standards in non-academically selective schools as in poorly performing teachers to be removed; at best, they the independent and selective sector, but it is reasonable are recycled to another school. As has been said, we all to expect them to be far closer than they are. know that the important thing is quality of teaching and leadership by the head. I am pleased that the In my view, the league tables have contributed to the Education Bill will address that problem. problem in a couple of ways. I recognise that there must be some externally validated way for parents to compare Other hon. Members have mentioned the length of local schools, and I am mindful of the words of the the school day. When I was first selected in Stourbridge, former Minister, the hon. Member for Liverpool, West I wondered what was happening when I saw children in Derby (Stephen Twigg), about how difficult such problems school uniform milling around the streets at 3 o’clock, are to solve. However, the obsession with C grades has halfway through the afternoon. Then I realised that led to far too much teaching emphasis on children who their day had ended. That was compounded when I are borderline D-C achievers. toured schools and found that in the middle of the school day, children were playing football, netball and In addition, it is a statutory requirement for all other such worthy pursuits and studying drama. children with special needs—not only statemented, but on school action—to have individual learning plans and In independent schools, such things are studied between a huge amount of support. I argue, as did my hon. 4 and 6 o’clock and on Saturday mornings. Of course Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster children taught in independent schools do better: they (Mr Field), that too many schools put far more effort get hours more educational teaching work a week. It is into children of lower ability than into stretching more no surprise that they come out with better grades and academic children, who are on course for at least a B, so have time to pursue more academic subjects, as well as that they get A grades in the right subjects. access to all the other pursuits that make up a good, rounded education. They are there for longer. It is The second problem to which the league tables contribute almost as simple as that. is that too many children are encouraged to start studying vocational subjects at a young age, for no other reason I am mindful of the time; I want to speak for only than to boost their schools’ league table rankings. An 10 minutes. I end with a plea for pupil referral units. I ambitious boy aged 14 from one of the secondary am a great believer in opportunities for late developers schools in my constituency told me, while doing work and children who go off the rails early in life, because I experience for me, that he liked history. When I asked am one such. I think that I am the first speaker in this him what GCSEs he was doing, I was surprised to hear debate who did not go to Oxford. I am sure that there that history did not feature among them because he had are some good PRUs, but provision in my area is patchy, been encouraged to take leisure and tourism instead. they are not given enough priority and they can be seen He was a bright boy. That is an example of how average as dumping grounds. schools, obsessed with league table rankings, have piled I know of one PRU in the black country where there into BTEC qualifications. is absolutely no discipline and no boundaries, which are That is the start of a slippery slope, as has been said. precisely what children who end up in PRUs require. I At age 14, many children, especially from families that suggest that that is an area where we need to encourage have never benefited from higher education, make GCSE passionate voluntary sector providers to participate. We subject selections that narrow the choices available to must not forget about those children. The same could them at A-level and finally divert them into a further be said for looked-after children, who also face many education college or new university. I am not dismissing hurdles. We must ensure that voluntary providers are BTEC and other such qualifications, but we must be encouraged to come in. There are so many other things 519WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 520WH

[Margot James] academic subjects—human biology, maths and so on—and all those who have taken it are now involved in further that we could discuss in this debate, but I end by education and going on to careers in sport and all sorts congratulating those hon. Friends who helped secure it. of other fields. I hope to hear so much more from other Members and hon. Friends. Kevin Brennan: The hon. Lady is making an interesting point, but is there not a slight contradiction in what she 4.9 pm is saying? She is saying that developing imaginative types of qualifications can stimulate the interest of Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I young people to go on and study and succeed in what congratulate colleagues who helped secure this important other Members have called the core subjects. debate, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) and for Suffolk Penny Mordaunt: There is a role for those types of Coastal (Dr Coffey). We often talk about budgets, subjects, but I do not think that we do young people any structures and strategies, but we do not discuss performance service at all by pretending that they are equivalent enough. It is a key issue for my constituents in Portsmouth. qualifications. They serve a particular purpose. One We have heard some great speeches that have taken us reason why the boxing club and the GCSE were set up over the globe, but I hope that Members will forgive me was to address a particular problem facing the individuals for concentrating on my constituency. involved. It has led to them going on to do other things, We have some serious challenges and low educational but it is not an equivalent GCSE to a language, maths performance in Portsmouth, although it is slowly improving. or those other core subjects. We do our young people a To name one of the many challenges, we have particular disservice if we pretend that it is. It is important, problems in primary education, which means that a lot however, to pay tribute to some of the work that has of children going into secondary school education have been done in that area. a 5% or less chance of getting a GCSE. Although we Another point—I shall not dwell on this, but it is have very good services for high special educational key—is that there is a lack of aspiration. That is a needs, we do not, in my view and in that of Ofsted, have consistent theme that I hear from secondary head teachers. good provision for medium to low needs or, indeed, for It is one of the biggest long-term problems that they gifted children either. Someone with dyslexia or a pragmatic face. What can be done about it? I welcome the rigour language disorder really struggles to get the help they that is being put back into the curriculum. I am particularly need. There is very little support for parents in getting pleased about the focus on the fact that spelling, punctuation access to the services that their children need. There is and grammar matter in GCSEs. I endorse what previous also a reluctance to intervene in particular cases and to speakers have said about incentives for choosing particular have a focus on and a drive to get the services that a high-return subjects. Part of that is better careers advice particular child needs. for young people when choosing those options. In one case with which I am dealing, for example, a We need to do better for those with a special educational young lad who is due to take his GCSE options next need. Every child must get the support they need. I am year has never been to a secondary school. He has a dealing with the case of a very bright girl who has very low special educational need that could easily be dyslexia. She is four years behind the reading age that addressed and sorted out through a number of options, she should be at, but her case is not considered critical including a travel grant. It is a scandal that it has now or in need of any intervention by the local authority. We taken more than two years—we are approaching the need to be smarter about how we provide those services. end of the third year—for any solution to be put on the Some services are just not available, or they are supposed table for that family. to be available but are not being provided in schools. A lot of children in Portsmouth have a challenging Needs are dismissed and it is very difficult for parents to home life. A lot of our schools do amazing things in get some clout and make sure that the services are supporting such children, but one message that I want delivered. to get across today is that although intervention, behavioural Another area of great concern in Portsmouth is that support and all the things that those children need, such about 50 children are not in a school—not because they as being taught life skills, are important, they are no have been excluded, but because nowhere can cater for substitute for enabling them to follow an academic their needs—and are being home taught, but not through path. Sometimes and all too often, they are a substitute. the choice of the parents. A lot of those parents themselves We have to do much better for children from those have a learning disability but zero support. There is no kinds of backgrounds who do not necessarily have a support from the local authority to help them teach strong parental advocate. their children. In fact, if they admit that they are As an aside, we have discussed media studies and teaching their children at home, they are struck off the other softer subjects, and I agree absolutely with Members list to get a school place. That is a real problem. who have said that they are not equivalent and that we We need to look at the flow of funding. I am dealing do young people a disservice by pretending that they with a case in which a child has a high dyslexia need and are. However, I should like to mention the Heart of has to have a specialist, full-time teacher who is accredited Portsmouth boxing academy, which has piloted a GCSE by CReSTeD—the Council for the Registration of Schools in boxing. It has been a hook for getting children who Teaching Dyslexic Pupils. Only one school in the city would otherwise never be in school to attend lessons. provides that kind of service, and it is in the private Until recently, 400 pupils a year in Portsmouth spent sector. It would cost the local authority less to send the more than three months of the school year out of child to that school than to try to bring in extra facilities school. Pupils who study the GCSE get a taster of more to one of its own schools. Where it makes sense for that 521WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 522WH happen, I think we should allow funding to flow and to I have heard since becoming a Member of Parliament is follow the pupil—even if they do not have a statement—if that, in the last year for which figures are available, of there is a clear, well-documented special educational the 80,000 children who qualify for free school meals, need. I have a quick plug: on 8 June, I will ask the only 40 achieved places at Oxford and Cambridge, House whether I can table a Bill to address some of which is down from the princely figure of 45 in the those issues. previous year. That is simply not good enough. Finally, we need much more vision in Portsmouth for I have listened with great interest to the debate about our young people. We have some tremendous opportunities the programme for international student assessment in the city. We are surrounded by high-tech industry. We figures and trends in international mathematics and have an MP who is a member of the British Astronomical science study statistics and so on. Of course, the problem Association. We have a university that is in the top five is that there are lies, damned lies and statistics. The in the country for astrophysics and cosmology. Not Government will rightly point to what they see as a only do we build aircraft carriers and Type 45 destroyers, diminishing level of education performance over the but we build spaceships at Astrium. We also have the past decade, and the Opposition will start to unpick Navy. I would very much like to see a university technical those figures and say that they are unfair comparisons. college set up in the city in the near future. As the shadow Minister may tell us in a moment, I Speaking of vision for the city, I would like to end by accept that there is an issue with the 2000 PISA figures paying tribute to all those who work and volunteer to having a cohort of just 32 countries and the 2009 educate children in Portsmouth. I am very grateful for figures having a cohort of 65 countries. Of course, such their time, effort and energy in helping me to put factors make comparisons difficult. However, the together a vision for our city. I need to ensure that they Government make a good point that, of those new are properly supported—if not by education expertise countries coming into the later figures, many of them in the local authority, then by expertise and support are outside the OECD and are therefore lowering the from elsewhere. The Department should be responsive average standard involved. to their needs. As their MP, I will play my role in debates such as this and in providing practical support Kevin Brennan: I may or may not make the point on the ground. about the figures when I speak, but does the hon. Gentleman accept that the OECD itself has said—not just me—that we cannot make the comparison between 4.20 pm the 2000 figures, the 2003 figures and the latest figures Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): It is a pleasure to for the reason my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, speak under your chairmanship for the first time, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) mentioned earlier: the Mr Rosindell. I am afraid that I have to inform my hon. inadequate size of the sample. Given the hon. Gentleman’s Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) Oxbridge education, he would not want to make that that I am another Oxford graduate and, to compound mistake. her concerns, that I went to the same college as my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster Mel Stride: From one Oxbridge man to another, I (Mr Field)—although, of course, he was there much accept that that certainly is the case with the 2003 later than me, which is why he is looking so much more figures, where the lack of information provided by UK youthful and fresh. and English schools meant we were not included in the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South league tables. Although there was a paucity of data in West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on securing this extremely 2000, we were included, as the hon. Gentleman will important debate. Education is one of the most important know. Therefore, some level of comparison is justified if policy areas considered by our Government. It is important we go back to that year. to the individual because a high level of educational achievement correlates to higher earnings, a lower propensity The Minister of State, Department for Education to be unemployed, better health outcomes and, indeed, (Mr Nick Gibb): My hon. Friend is making a good greater longevity. As she eloquently pointed out, in a point about the PISA surveys. Of course, Ministers and world that is increasingly dominated by global competition civil servants were not slow in coming forward in trumpeting and where knowledge-based industries are king, education the fact the 2000 PISA figures were so high. is also important to the economy. I shall illustrate that point. In 1978, 6.5 million people Mel Stride: I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for worked in manufacturing. That figure is now down to helpfully reminding me of that. I am sure that the 2.5 million. The scope for less-skilled jobs in our economy shadow Minister will address that comment in due has diminished considerably. As my hon. Friend pointed course. out, in a recent survey, the CBI indicated that some 40% Whether we have gone up or down a bit in such of the UK’s population could be classified as low skilled surveys is not the main point, as a number of hon. compared with just 22% in Germany. That is a serious Members have said. At the end of the day, as I shall problem for the economy. demonstrate, being average or around average is simply Many hon. Members have mentioned social mobility. not good enough—as I think the Opposition accept, My parents left school at 15 and 14 for reasons of including the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby economic hardship. For them to have dreamt of becoming (Stephen Twigg) who very much stressed that point. a doctor or a scientist would have been about as fanciful According to the 2009 league table, if we were to have as any Member in this Chamber dreaming of walking achieved at the level of the best—for example, Finland— on the surface of the moon—it was simply never going 67% of students in this country would have obtained to happen. One of the most striking and pitiful statistics five A* to C grades, including English and mathematics. 523WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 524WH

[Mel Stride] welcome the English baccalaureate and very much subscribe to the comments that my hon. Friend the Member for The actual figure is just 49.8%. That is a huge loss of South West Norfolk made about it. human capital and is to the enormous detriment of The quality of teachers lies right at the heart of the students who did not achieve those grades as a consequence issue and is absolutely key; in fact, it is referred to in the of us not being the best. Average performance is clearly title of the White Paper that we have brought forward. changing through time because those countries with It is absolutely right to raise the bar on qualifications good education systems that consistently put them at for teachers and to be more rigorous in selecting them. the top of the table are good at adapting and innovating. That includes taking a close look at interpersonal skills Such countries are not standing still and they are getting as well as academic qualifications. I urge the Minister to better. look very carefully at the point about interpersonal skills for teachers. We can all remember from our student Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Interesting evidence days—in my case, at Portsmouth Grammar school in given to the Select Committee on Education this week the constituency next door to that of my hon. Friend from the OECD demonstrates how complex the matter the Member for Portsmouth North—those teachers is. What does the hon. Gentleman have to say about the who were highly-qualified, but could not inspire. It is OECD’s report that, although Finland is very good in very important that we do what we can to identify them. terms of attainment, it is very poor at getting young The final point that comes out of the PISA and people into employment? The UK is better at that than, OECD analysis is the importance of the culture in a for example, Finland. These issues are complex. school, specifically as regards discipline, an issue mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and Mel Stride: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point. East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe). I welcome the Of course, these matters are complex. That is exactly Government’s approach: 24 hours’ notice will no longer what I have been arguing. However, there is no getting be required for detentions; pupils may be searched if away from the fact that we have remained average for teachers are concerned; anonymity will be provided to far too long across too many measures—PISA, TIMSS, teachers who face serious allegations from pupils; and progress in international reading literacy study and so head teachers and governing bodies will have more on. autonomy over exclusion. As a governor of a school, I PISA is, indeed, a complex study. It looks not just at think that all those things are absolutely spot on, and I 15-year-olds in terms of reading, mathematics and science, congratulate the Government. but at the background of those students. It looks at This is an important debate. For too long, measuring their aspirations and attitudes and how the schools in success in education has been with reference to the past. which those students are studying function. One of the It has been done with reference to inflated examination key conclusions that is drawn by the OECD from those results—results pumped up by re-sits, continuous assessment studies is that education in this country is not promoting and diminishing examination standards—and we have social mobility to the extent that it should. One of the simply disguised failure by doing that. Worse, we have ways of identifying that point is to look at the different also failed far too many of our young people. I congratulate achievement levels of individual pupils. There is a high my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk on correlation between social deprivation and poorer students, securing the debate, and the Government on placing and lower achievement. In fact, 13.9% of a student’s international standards right at the heart of our education achievement can be attributed to their socio-economic policy. background. That figure is far lower in other countries, including in Finland at 8.3% and Canada at 8.2%. 4.32 pm That brings me on to my next point. This is not a zero-sum game where having excellence and achieving Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): It is a great well in these league tables means letting down poorer pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. students. It is quite possible to achieve both—to make I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South sure that we are at the top of the league table and that West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on securing this debate, we are doing well by students from less advantaged which is indeed important, because while some things backgrounds. That has been shown not just by Finland have unambiguously improved in education in the past and Canada, but by Japan and South Korea. In this 10 or 15 years—we should all be proud and celebrate country, we have for too long tolerated a long tail of that—overall there have clearly been insufficient returns underachievement in the distribution of education on a very large amount of money spent. Universities performance, which is why I am pleased that a lot of the struggle to differentiate between students and have to Government’s very radical education policies are specifically take remedial action, as my hon. Friend outlined. We designed to address that. again had employers in the Select Committee on Education My final point—I will be brief—is that the PISA this week complaining about the lack of generic skills in studies also highlight the link between various underlying the people they see coming forward, and about a lack of factors in education and performance, for example, the work ethic, too. There is a yawning gap between the rich key effect of operational independence of schools on and the poor. Frankly, far too many young people are results. There is a clear correlation between schools left behind, with a million young people not in school, being allowed to get on with it and good educational not in training and not in a job. achievement. That is one of the reasons why I welcome That has all been happening at a time when we have the free schools and academies programme we have put been breaking records year after year in our presumed into effect. Standards-based external examinations are education performance. The fact is that many of the also key drivers of performance in education. I also so-called comparisons are not comparable over time, 525WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 526WH and not comparable between schools, individual students Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): Can the or groups of students. Although PISA is not perfect, it hon. Gentleman enlighten us on what the pass rate gives us an anchor point. It gives us an external benchmark among private schools was for the English baccalaureate? with which to compare. It is, of course, not just about One of the problems with a retrospectively applied our changed place in the league table, as it were. I fully mechanism is that many schools were not doing the accept that there are difficulties with the methodology courses and subjects involved, so the figures that he and, of course, if the number of countries in the sample mentioned are not really equivalent. Perhaps this is a is changed, then that will change the rankings. What debate and a point that he might want to make in two or should concern us, however, is where we were in any three years’ time, when everyone has been forced to do year relative to others—both relative to our traditional them by this policy. competitors of Germany, the United States, Japan and so on, and relative to our new competitors, particularly Damian Hinds: As the hon. Lady should know—her China. A province of China was at the very top of the colleagues may help her—we are not talking about the table, but as everybody knows, a single province comfortably national curriculum, but a measure of how many children dwarfs the size of our population. take one particular subset of subjects. The measure is That is doubly important, because the Chinese have not to be compulsory. The fact that it was revealed that already whupped us on low-cost volume manufacturing, some private schools were not offering those subjects and we will never again make t-shirts cheaper than tells us other interesting things. We have not got time, China. It is already ahead of us in natural resources, sadly, to debate them all now, but I would love to on a and what it does not have, it makes up for by bringing it separate occasion. in from Africa and elsewhere. The arenas left for us Conversations with colleagues from all parts of the really to compete and excel in are largely those in which House on the subject have been interesting. I am sure academic achievement is very important, such as advanced that there will be exceptions to this, but most colleagues manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, the knowledge and to whom I talk, whether they went to a comprehensive, creative industries, and education itself. Many of the grammar or secondary modern school, all studied the others in which we need to excel, such as tourism and English baccalaureate. We did not necessarily pass all the non-tradable service sector in general, call for a those exams, but that was pretty much considered the much higher level of soft skills, interpersonal skills, obvious set of exams that kids would take. The fact that communication skills and so on than we typically see that happened in the past does not make it perfect or from 18-year-olds coming out of large parts of the right, but it does raise the question of why that has British education system. changed. As I say, we are not talking about a perfect I will not talk about what the Government are doing. measure. In fact, I would suggest that any single measure I was going to say a lot, but most of it has already been of performance of any particular age group will promote said, which is lucky, considering the lateness of the gaming behaviour. A particular issue with the English hour. I will talk just about measurement and accountability. baccalaureate—I fully accept this—is that not every The English baccalaureate has filled up our inboxes to a child is ever going to be in contention, as it were, for degree that I suppose most of us did not really expect. I making that benchmark. There needs to be a balanced have been astounded, actually— basket of measures. Alongside the English baccalaureate, I would hope that we might see a technical baccalaureate, and perhaps others, too. Stephen Twigg indicated dissent. Ministers are going down that exact track. We had the opportunity to talk to the Minister about that in Damian Hinds: The hon. Gentleman has not. Perhaps the Education Committee the other day. There are it is just me. I have attracted comments on the subject more, rather than fewer, measures coming through, but like a magnet—I am a very popular fellow, obviously. that memo does not seem to have arrived in a lot of They have mostly been from teachers, not parents. In staff rooms, where the assumption seems to be that the fact, I have not had a single parent or child spontaneously English baccalaureate will be the sole or primary mention the English baccalaureate in any way whatever. measure. In fact, in that basket of measures—this was People are particularly worked up, as we know, about alluded to earlier—the most important measure or religious studies, music and other subjects. They are measures should be things that track not a snapshot of particularly exercised about what they call the retrospective achievement, but progress over time. That is what nature of the way the proposal was applied. I can school is all about: developing the individual and understand teachers’ frustration on that in some ways, helping them to fulfil their potential. If we lead on but only to an extent. The English baccalaureate tells us measures of progress, we get rid of any incentive there one really important thing, and I am not sure that we might be to select only those children who will be, as it would have found this out any other way: the yawning were, easiest. gap that I mentioned between the rich and the poor. Contextual value added is not that measure. I have Among kids on free school meals—free school meals now sat on the Education Committee for a year; I am are not the only measure of deprivation, but it is the still waiting for the first teacher, head teacher, union best and most accurate one that we have—only 4% were leader, educational psychologist, education professional achieving the English baccalaureate. Overall, it was or anyone else to mention contextual value added as a 16%, so that is a quarter of the level for the cohort as a measure of the achievement of any school, local authority whole. Even more worrying than the fact that only 4% or anything else. That has not happened, because it is of those children passed that set of exams, what really an impenetrable measure—it is impossible to figure out scares me is that only 8% were entered for that set of what it means. When I have asked people to explain, I exams. That is truly shocking. have quickly wished that I had not. 527WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 528WH

[Damian Hinds] School of Economics. I heard directly from the former head of Imperial college, Sir Richard Sykes, about the The Government are working on a specific measure problems with science and constantly having to spend or measures of the progress of children at the most six months redoing the A-level syllabus, because the challenging end of the scale. In our recent Select Committee standards are not what they were a decade or so ago. report, “The role and performance of Ofsted”, we This week the CBI revealed that almost half of employers recommended something in which I firmly believe: a have to invest in numeracy or literacy training for metric system tracking the performance of all the different school and college leavers. That situation would be ability groups—by quintile, for example—and measuring unacceptable at any time, but it is untenable at the the progress of those not only in the middle and bottom beginning of a century in which Britain needs to be of the range, but in the gifted and talented category at delivering a first-class education for young people, so the top. We recommended Ofsted as probably being in that they and Britain itself can compete in an increasingly the best position to interpret the accompanying complex competitive and globalised economy. data and to convert them into the English language in a way that contextual value added struggles to do. I welcome the measures initiated by the Minister and There is a real danger of drowning in a sea of the Government to reverse the trend—in particular the measures—uncapped GCSE scores, five or more A* to plans to raise the professional status and standards of C grades, five or more A* to C grades with mathematics, teachers and the respect that we as a society offer contextual value added, raw value added and the English teachers. Some of the measures were set out in the baccalaureate—or, potentially, a technical baccalaureate, schools White Paper. It is right that we expect a lot from the new measure of progress among the most challenging teachers, but it is also essential that they get the best and challenged students. Ultimately, we need one or training and that they are better protected from violence two lead measures to hold schools to account so that in the classroom and from spurious and malicious parents know what the key things to look at are. allegations that we know from the polling is deterring graduates from going into the profession. I am keen to hear the Minister’s comments, but I suggest that the five or more A* to C grades is not that One of the Government’s most important schools measure for a couple of reasons: first, because of its policies is the academies programme. I commend the tendency to focus on the average and on that borderline Minister on the Government’s record to date: the number between C and D grades; and, secondly, because it is a of academies has more than doubled in the past year, cliff-edge binary measure, which therefore does not take and more and more schools are embracing the opportunity into account enough of the richness going on in that to acquire greater freedom and to innovate. In my cohort. constituency, I am delighted that Rydens school in Walton is currently applying for academy status—a I suggest that the best lead way in which to measure great school, led by a dynamic head teacher, with really school performance is a combination of some sort of committed governors. I wish it every success. average point score measure—perhaps the average point score towards the English baccalaureate subjects, or Contrary to claims in attacks by the teaching unions, something else—and a progress measure, whether a academies are raising standards. The Harris Federation simplified version of value added or something more achieved a 10% increase in pupils getting five good like the progress by quintile that I was outlining. GCSEs in schools last year, while ARK academies saw I still managed to speak for more than the five or six a 12% improvement. That is a strong base on which the minutes that I thought I was going to, for which I Government can build. We are only a year in, however, apologise profusely. and challenges remain, one in England certainly being the pressure on school places—in my constituency, I have seen it cause concern to many parents in Elmbridge. 4.42 pm I would like to know a bit more about what the Government Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): I join will do to address such pressures on school places and other Members in congratulating my hon. Friend the parental choices, in addition to the academies and free Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on schools programme. securing this timely and important debate. I listened At a time of financial pressure, funding is difficult with great interest to a variety of different speeches. and contentious, and the allocation of existing funding The simple but uncomfortable truth is that, under the becomes even more important. The whole issue of the previous Government, the British education system let funding formula—its transparency and objectivity—is our children down, systematically and consistently. My of acute concern to parents in my constituency. It is hon. Friend referred to the UK tumbling down the probably the No. 1 issue raised with me at open town PISA ranking. We have heard a lot about the related hall meetings; I have held six recently. The issue comes methodological issues, but that is only one of a series of up time and again. We know that the funding formula powerful indicators revealing the extent of falling—or will be addressed in the context of the NHS and local at least stagnant—standards, despite the huge amount authorities, but I am interested to hear more about the of money that has gone in. Interestingly, the OECD process in relation to the schools budget. explicitly criticised the persistent grade inflation at A-level, What further consideration is being given to the role which has disguised poor outcomes and undermined of profit-based schools in providing extra capacity? I students’ achievements. appreciate that talking about this is regarded as almost Leading universities have had to offer classes in essay taboo, but a recent study by the Adam Smith Institute writing to undergraduates who lacked the ability to revealed how well placed such schools are to boost the structure an argument properly—not only the mid-ranking number of free schools, which are a flagship Government universities, but Bristol, Newcastle and the London policy. 529WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 530WH

Proprietorial schools deliver excellent academic teaching and education in our country. The recipe for outcomes—we all know that—but an impressive one success is not complicated and bureaucratic. We must third of them do so while charging less per pupil than is trust teachers and parents more, demand academic spent in the state sector, exposing one of the great rigour, and free up schools to innovate. I wish the fallacies at the heart of the previous Government’s Minister the best of luck in those endeavours, and I approach, which is that outcomes are dependent simply again congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for on resources. The proprietorial schools also erode the South West Norfolk on securing this important debate. dogmatic argument against any consideration of the idea of vouchers—namely that they allow middle class students to opt into the upper tier of a two-tier system. 4.51 pm That accusation cannot be levelled against schools that Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I want to touch on some of cost less but deliver more. the points that may help. I know that the Minister is Apart from the whole issue of structures, we also already familiar with much of what I will say, but I will need to think long and hard about what we want our make my points none the less. school leavers to do and about what they want to do; I have a particular passion for ensuring that children others have referred to that issue today. The previous have a smooth progression and that we get the best out Government’s target of 50% of young people going to of them, and it will be no surprise to hear me mention university was an arbitrary and clunky piece of social middle schools. I am a big fan of middle schools because engineering, resulting in more degree courses, quite a they provide an opportunity, particularly in rural areas few of dubious value to the students taking them. where we have very small schools, for children to move Furthermore, quotas miss the point. I suspect that there from being a big fish in a small pool to being a medium will be broad agreement, but standards must be improved fish in a medium pool. In view of the vast number of in our state schools and not dumbed down in our students in upper and secondary schools, we should universities. think about how children fare when they move at the Does the Minister agree that we also need a cultural age of 11 from a school of perhaps 100 or 150 pupils to shift in this country? We heard one of the leading lights one of 300 or 350 in a year. We should consider what at McDonald’s talk about that earlier in the week. We happens to their performance at age 11. must certainly do something to reverse the snobbery My second point is about teacher training. I hope that insists that people must go to university to be a that the colleges have been listening, and are aware of success in life. That certainly did not apply to my the evidence. So often, we have heard from teachers, the parents, who were both successful without going to unions and others that little time is spent during teacher university. training on learning about behaviour and how to cope with it. I am sure that we could do something to help Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): I take my hon. newly qualified teachers, because it can be traumatic for Friend’s point about how 20 or 30 years ago not everyone some of them when they are faced with situations that needed to go to university to become a success in life. they are unable to cope with. However, will he acknowledge that, for most jobs nowadays, I mentioned during an intervention the Australian the requirement is a 2:1 degree, even to get an application long-leave system, and I cannot emphasise enough what through the main gate? Unless employers agree to accept a good thing that is, because it provides teachers with a people without degrees, we have a real problem to deal career break with the security of knowing that they can with. return to teaching. It allows them to broaden their experience by going into business or another area, or Mr Raab: My hon. Friend makes a perfectly valid perhaps by following a personal interest for six months point. That is why the question is not just about what or a year. That must mean that they come back with a the Government do, but about a much broader cultural fresh look and a fresh start, ready to take on the next shift. In my own profession, the legal profession, we can 10 years. It also provides the opportunity for teachers to spend six or seven years training, but once qualified we try all levels of management. Comments have been do very little of what we were trained to do. made about whether some people are well suited to It seems to me that some of the high street practices being heads. If they have a test run for six months, they could get young, aspirational, talented youngsters into may find that it is not their bag and may choose to take the profession without the huge cost of going through a different route. the red brick university parade and on to postgraduate It might be helpful if we made it possible—and qualifications. There should be a way to open up the perhaps even recommended—that newly qualified teachers professions. They have been some of the worst culprits, should spend a period in a special school so that they and that is true not just of the legal professions. That is become familiar with the difficulties of communication precisely why I welcome the Government’s commitment and of social and life skills that face young people who to increase the number of apprenticeships. When go into the special school system. That would be helpful, considering the UK’s skills needs, two thirds of employers because it would allow people to build knowledge and believe that apprenticeships should be the priority for have strategies to identify early and support children Government funding. From what I have heard in the who may be in the mainstream system, but need a little House and more broadly over the past few months, I extra help. suspect that that is an area of emerging consensus When Martin Narey was chief executive officer of among the main parties. Barnardo’s, he made it clear that people who naturally I am acutely conscious of time. I shall close by saying surround young children—nursery teachers, health visitors that I am optimistic that the Government’s policies will and so on—can spot difficulties coming when children reverse the decline and stagnation in the standards of are two and three. If we ensure that all teachers can spot 531WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 532WH

[Tessa Munt] school—and that is the one parallel that I would draw with the independent sector, where parents’ involvement difficulties as they occur, we may be able to interrupt is absolute because they write the cheques. what need not necessarily be an inevitable downward process. We should concentrate on that, and ensure that people have the opportunity to gain the skills that they 4.59 pm may need. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I, too, congratulate They may not always be right, but there are stats for the hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth dyslexia, for example, suggesting that we may not always Truss) on securing this important debate. We have heard be able to identify children, particularly boys, who contributions from 11 Back-Bench Members, and it has develop dyslexia at the ages of seven and eight—rather been a useful opportunity for an extended discussion. than six, when the Government are considering doing a The hon. Lady commenced the debate with a thoughtful screening test for reading and understanding skills. and serious speech, and as the parent of a 17-year-old Ensuring that teachers have that extra ability and experience girl who is currently studying for AS-levels, I have a lot will help them. of sympathy with some of her comments about I have spoken at length elsewhere about the fact that I examinations. When I return home tonight, hopefully I am completely enthused about measuring students’ will help my daughter to prepare for her English AS-level performance and progress, instead of spending the whole next Tuesday. time looking at achievement and league tables. We have We also heard from the hon. Member for Suffolk seen what happens, and it has been explained this Coastal (Dr Coffey), who is no longer in her place as I afternoon. I have shown the Minister a 16-year-old think she is contributing in the main Chamber. She boy’s report. It clearly shows the effort that he put in took us on a fascinating personal journey around her was generally marked as A in all subjects, with one or education, although I felt slightly upset when she did two exceptions, and attainment was generally marked at not mention economics as one of the core subjects that A, with one or two exceptions. However, the target should be studied by everyone. We also heard a thoughtful grades were C, C, C, C. It is ludicrous to give such a and interesting speech by the hon. Member for South report to any child because it will smash any chance of Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe). Later personal aspiration and desire to achieve. It is barmy I shall study it again as it will be worth reading on the for someone who is trotting along with As in a subject page. to be told to aim for Cs. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West I have visited many different schools, and have spoken Derby (Stephen Twigg) pointed out—quite rightly as a at length about the fact that primary school teachers are former Schools Minister—the consequences of some of completely tuned into measuring progress. They may the policies that he set in train nearly 10 years ago, not do so formally, but they are used to the idea. They including the improvement in the numbers of those know every child in the class, their rate of progress, achieving five GCSEs, including English and maths, at where the blocks are and where there may be problems. grades A to C. He reminded us that that number rose We must develop a system so that we do exactly the from 32% in 1997 to 55% by 2010, and was even higher same in middle schools, senior schools, upper schools in his area of Liverpool. Despite the carping about that and so on. That will deal with those quintiles, and achievement, there is no evidence to suggest that a children who are achieving will be pushed a bit further significant dumbing down of GCSEs took place during so that we get to the point where every local school is a that period. Instead, it is evidence of real improvement good school and measures the performance of all students. in schools and of attainment by our young people. Again, I have discussed this with the Minister, but I The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster want to place on the record my dismay—this may be (Mr Field) made a thoughtful contribution, and the another aspect of what I have just said—at the examination hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), who to system and the obsession with resitting and multiple the relief of us all pointed out that she is not an Oxford attempts. We must stop that. We need a balance. I do graduate, went on to make important points about not mean that no one should resit an exam, but there looked-after children and children who are referred to should not be automatic resits. A 16-year-old lad who pupil referral units. I am sure that the House can work had 102 questions right out of 106 in his GCSE maths together on such issues. I did not agree with her remark was automatically put in for a resit. That just says, about competitive school sport and perhaps she might “Sorry, you’re not good enough”, but four marks off like to walk to another place at the other end of the perfect is not so bad, is it? We should concentrate on building and talk to Baroness Sue Campbell about the extending such a child into a different sort of exam at improvements that have been made in competitive sport the next level up, or whatever—it does not matter. But over the past 10 years. As a former Minister responsible resitting the same exam is a disincentive. for school sport, I recommend that conversation. The I have two minutes left, and I apologise for taking up Baroness is a Cross Bencher and will not be parti pris. all this time, but I want to consider the impact—for me, The hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny it is a positive impact—of “Jamie’s Dream School” on Mordaunt) made an important contribution and provided the debate. When I visit my local pubs, schools and so the best pun of the debate when she told us that GCSE on, people talk about education in a different way boxing was a great hook to get people on to studying having seen the programme. Opportunity, inspirational other things. We heard contributions from the hon. teaching and genuine care clearly change outcomes. The Members for Central Devon (Mel Stride), for Esher and other factor that is absolutely clear is that parents’ Walton (Mr Raab) and for Wells (Tessa Munt). The involvement is needed—they had to sign up to allow hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) their young people to be involved in Jamie’s dream sounded as if he were supporting something akin to the 533WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 534WH report card proposed by the previous Government. comparisons over time on which the Secretary of State Perhaps he should discuss his ideas with the Minister; I has relied, because there was no statistically valid sample thought they were interesting and had some promise as from this country in the first place. a way of finding a more valid way to measure progress. There is no consensus among statisticians and He spoke a lot about the E-bac, which slightly contradicted educationalists that the PISA survey can be relied on, what he said at the end of his speech. Perhaps I can ask let alone treated as a sort of religious text in the way it is all Government Members to raise their hands if they by the Secretary of State—I must be careful because the passed the E-bac. hon. Member for South West Norfolk is an expert in this area. The Secretary of State likes to say that Andreas Mr Gibb indicated assent. Schleicher, who compiles the PISA tables, is the most important man in our education system, but if he wants Damian Hinds indicated assent. to base his policy on evidence he should consider all opinions, not just that of one person. The PISA statistics will be examined in the months Kevin Brennan: Just the Minister and the hon. Member and years ahead, but I warn the Secretary of State not for East Hampshire. [Interruption.] I see there are a few to rely too heavily on them. A Danish academic, Professor other late developers. Since I asked that question, it is Svend Kreiner, is preparing a paper that will soon be only fair to say that I did not pass the first time round, published. He says that the PISA survey does not and I admit to the hon. Member for Wells that I had to compare like with like across all countries, and is not do the dreaded re-sit. We should be careful about banning therefore an objective performance benchmark. In this resits; the Secretary of State would not be able to drive country, Professor Stephen Heppell has long contested had he not been able to resit his driving test on several the accuracy and usefulness of the PISA results, and his occasions. The hon. Lady should be careful what she website cites research into PISA’s methodology. Professor recommends. Alan Smithers doubts its ability to compare like with Let us move to the substance of my remarks. The like. S. J. Prais of the National Institute of Economic context for this debate was reflected in the e-mail sent and Social Research in London has previously used the out by the hon. Member for South West Norfolk, and example of England’s results to demonstrate serious concerns the way that the Secretary of State has used flaws in the response rates and sampling of Pisa, which data from international surveys as the evidence base for necessarily lead to biased results. his reforms. We have debated some of those reforms Gjert Langfeldt of Agder university questions the elsewhere—the Minister and I were recently on a Public validity and reliability claims made by PISA, pointing to Bill Committee and I know he is sick of the sight of me. “constructional constraints, methodological mishaps and the cultural Part of the context for this interesting debate was bias embedded in the PISA design”. provided by the Secretary of State in the White Paper and concerns international evidence. Quite frankly, I Svein Sjøberg at the university of Oslo analysed PISA thought that all hon. Members present today made a items and found that some involved confusing and better effort than the Secretary of State to put that erroneous material. For example, he observed that the evidence into some sort of context, which is why it has title of an article about cloning, “A Copying Machine been a better debate. When the Secretary of State for Living Beings”, was translated literally word for speaks about our educational performance in international word into Norwegian, rendering the title totally comparisons, he quotes only from the PISA survey. He incomprehensible. The questions are supposed to be did not turn up for the Education Bill’s Third Reading, culturally neutral. but on Second Reading he stated: I could go on, but the point that I am making is that “We moved from fourth to 14th in the world rankings for it is not accepted universally or even in a widespread science, seventh to 17th in literacy and eighth to 24th in mathematics way among academics and educationists that PISA can by 2007.”—[Official Report, 8 February 2011; Vol. 523, c. 167.] be relied on solely to provide the evidence required. I It is, however, misleading to quote out of context the would forgive the Secretary of State on this if it was the UK’s raw rankings in figures from the PISA survey only evidence available to him, but he did not mention between 2000 and 2009 because, as other hon. Members in the Second Reading speech that I referred to, which have pointed out, the number of countries that take he did turn up for, that other pieces of evidence were part in the PISA survey dramatically increased over available. The hon. Member for South West Norfolk that period. I am sure that if a survey took place in did, but the Secretary of State did not. We might have Norfolk, the hon. Member for South West Norfolk presumed from what he said that PISA was the only would be found to be the best MP in Norfolk—there is evidence available, but as has been mentioned in the probably no question about that and since there are no course of this debate and as the hon. Lady mentioned Labour MPs in that area, I can say it with safety. If that in her remarks, because she is a very honourable lady, survey were extended to the whole of the UK, and for there is the trends in international mathematics and the sake of argument, the hon. Lady finished in 11th science study—TIMSS. She rather played TIMSS down. place—this is purely hypothetical; I am sure she would I will not at this point, having just tried to trash some of still finish first—that would not mean that she had the PISA methodology, say that the TIMSS methodology become a worse MP, but simply that there was more is perfect. All I am saying is that it should be cited at the evidence and more MPs included in the survey. That is same time by the Secretary of State when he is making exactly what happened with the PISA survey—over policy that is supposed to be based on evidence. time, there has been a huge expansion in the number of TIMSS showed that between 1995 and the last tests countries that participate. Furthermore, the OECD has in 2007, England’s primary school maths performance stated that it is not statistically valid to make the improved by a greater margin than any of the other 535WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 536WH

[Kevin Brennan] CentreForum report published earlier in the year entitled “Academic rigour and social mobility: how low income 15 nations that had pupils taking tests in those years, students are being kept out of top jobs”. Both her including Singapore, Japan, the Netherlands, the United speech today and that policy paper are worthy of much States, Australia, New Zealand and Norway. Our score wider circulation, and I hope that they will receive that, went from below the international average in 1995 to because she has made very important points. comfortably above it in 2007. Our ranking improved I could not agree more with my hon. Friend’s analysis from 12th out of 16 countries in 1995 to seventh out of and, in particular, with her forensic dissection of the 36 in 2007. It was an expanded table in which we had UK’s educational performance in recent years: her insightful gone up. An example of that kind of performance thesis, if I may describe it thus, that equivalence of would be the hon. Member for South West Norfolk qualifications has failed the poorest children; her conclusion going from 10th in Norfolk to 1st in East Anglia. that comprehensive reform of our education system is urgently required; and her suggestion that there is much Dr Coffey: No chance. more that we can learn from the best performing nations and regions of the world. Kevin Brennan: “No chance” says the hon. Member There have been excellent speeches from other hon. for Suffolk Coastal from a sedentary position. I did not Members. It is heartening that a debate on education notice her sneak back into the Chamber; I would not has been so dominated by my hon. Friends, almost all have said that if I had. of whom are, as they say, fresh from the people, having The most recent round of TIMSS brought even more been elected in 2010. My hon. Friend the Member for good news relating to other tests. In secondary maths, Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) spoke of her own educational England was the joint third most improved of 20 countries journey and emphasised the importance of the foundation during the period 1995 to 2007, rising from 11th out of subjects of English and maths and the service that the 20 to seventh out of 49 in the table. In science, the Russell group provided in publishing details of the country was seventh most improved out of 16 at primary facilitating subjects, which just happened to match, if I level, with its ranking moving from sixth out of 20 countries may say so, the subjects in the English baccalaureate. It in 1995 to seventh out of 36 in 2007. It was the fifth is a real concern, as my hon. Friend the Member for most improved out of 19 at secondary level, its ranking East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) said, that only 4% of improving from seventh to fifth between those two students on free school meals achieved the E-bac last years, even though the number of countries taking part year compared with 15.6% nationally. That figure itself— had increased from 19 to 49. I could go on—I am going one in six—is lamentably low. on until 5.15 pm if the Minister wants to know. However, there is no mention of the alternative picture reflected I wonder what the former Schools Minister, the hon. by TIMSS in any of the things that the Secretary of Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), State says. would have thought when he looked at the five GCSEs or more figures and the increase over the years—it is up We have had an extremely interesting and serious to more than 50% today. I wonder whether he thought debate this afternoon about what we need to do to that most of those achievements would not be in the improve the education of our children, to improve our English baccalaureate subjects. Did he envisage that schools and to improve our economic performance. We only 15.6% would achieveaCormoreintheEnglish should be doing that in the spirit of thinking about baccalaureate subjects, compared with the more than what the real evidence is, examining the statistics and 50% achieving five or more GCSEs? accepting that we should all be striving for continual improvement. Stephen Twigg: The Minister raises a serious point. Taking only one part of the picture, subjecting it to As I said in my speech, I am passionate about the the extreme hyperbole of the Secretary of State, with particular subjects involved—history, geography and his rather dramatic style, and making that the only basis modern foreign languages—but I think that I would for policy making is a serious mistake and undermines have recognised that some people would be achieving our shared wish to improve educational performance in five A* to C grades at GCSE with one of the subjects our country, to improve opportunity for young people being religious studies or perhaps music. My concern is and to improve our economic performance. I therefore that in a laudable attempt to celebrate the subjects that make a plea for a higher plane of debate than we have he has added, other subjects will be crowded out. had from the Secretary of State—one that involves less flummery and exaggeration and that is more evidence-based. Mr Gibb: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s If that were the case, we could seriously have the kind of intervention, but of course there is plenty of room education debate that we need and that we want in outside the English baccalaureate to study RE, music order to improve our economic performance and to and art and, indeed, for some pupils to take a vocational improve education in this country. subject. We have deliberately kept the English baccalaureate small to enable that to happen. 5.15 pm My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and The Minister of State, Department for Education East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) spoke of consistent (Mr Nick Gibb): I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the application of school rules and pointed to how dramatically Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on a school can improve its academic performance once securing this very important debate, which has seen behaviour is sorted out. He is absolutely right. He called excellent contributions and consensus on the need to for more flexibility in the movement of heads going improve our education performance. Her excellent opening back to teaching. The Government certainly intend to speech reiterated many of the points made in her allow more flexibility in terms and conditions for our 537WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 538WH schools. The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby The hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) cited Australia. was right to pay tribute to Teach First, and I welcome We are introducing a scholarship fund—an education his support for its expansion. endowment fund—of £125 million, to be administered My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London by the Sutton Trust. Teachers will be able to bid for and Westminster (Mr Field) said that the paucity of funds to allow them to undertake further study in their aspiration was a key characteristic of poorly performing academic field, or to improve their teaching skills. That schools. He is absolutely right. We must grapple with important initiative is on similar lines to the one that that in all our schools, to ensure that we do not sell she mentioned. children short, particularly those from homes where I shall now address the debate more generally. The there is not much aspiration; we need to replicate that challenges that we face in the 21st century and the aspiration in school. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for opportunities that we now enjoy are more global in his support for synthetic phonics. I hope that young scope than ever before, as many hon. Members have Master Field is already reading at the age of three and a pointed out. The days are long gone when we could half. afford to educate a minority of our children well, while My hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot hoping that the rest would be okay. As we heard, China James) is right to be concerned about the growing gap and India are already turning out more engineers, computer between the independent and state sectors. The OECD scientists and university graduates than the whole of has commented on the fact that the gap in the UK is Europe and America combined. one of the widest among OECD countries. I assure her The success of other nations in educating more of that we are committed to raising the standard of alternative their young people to a higher level is part of their provision, and to including the voluntary sector and resolute determination to secure their future prosperity. other providers that have a proven record of helping It is no longer good enough to say that we as a nation children with challenging behavioural problems. are doing better than we did in the past. What matters My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North now is not so much how we are doing compared to the (Penny Mordaunt) said during her contribution that past, but how we are doing compared to the rest and, in more widely based GCSEs, such as the pilot GCSE in particular, how we are doing compared to the best of boxing that she cited, can be valued without necessarily the rest. having to claim that they are the equivalent of academic We need to ask ourselves how our 16-year-olds are GCSEs. That is an important point. doing when compared with those in the US, Singapore, My hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel China and Scandinavia. Sadly, the answer is that we are Stride) provided an important analysis of the PISA not doing anywhere near well enough. Across the globe, figures from 2000 to 2009. We are determined to address other nations are outpacing us, accelerating reforms, the long tail of underachievement, another factor that creating more innovation and pulling ahead in international was found in many PISA surveys. comparisons. The hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) As has been pointed out, in recent years the UK has quoted Andreas Schleicher. However, as politicians tend slipped down the international league tables. Indeed, to do, he failed to give the full quotation. It is true that when the PISA tables were first published, to the disbelief he said that there has been of the German education establishment they demonstrated “very little change over the last 10 years.” that its education system was nowhere near being the global leader it had always thought. In Germany, it But he went on to say that we are an average performer became known as “Pisa-shock”. Most important, it and that stimulated a furious debate about how Germany could “improvement on the equality front from a social perspective catch up, and that is the approach that we should be somewhat declined; performance is average.” taking. We should not be saying, “Now that the figures He meant that in a pejorative sense, not as something to are low, this academic or that will not believe them.” be happy with. That was not being said in the years after 2000 by My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire Labour Ministers or civil servants when the figures (Damian Hinds) was right to point to the weakness of showed us being fourth, seventh and eighth in science, the figure for five or more A to C grades, and the literacy and maths. inevitable focus on the border between grades C and D. Similarly, when the United States was confronted We are considering the matter, but measures that look with evidence showing that that 15-year-olds in the far at the performance of the lowest quintile will help to east were comfortably outperforming their pupils in address the problem. A column in the performance maths and science, it was described as a “Sputnik tables will show what schools have achieved for pupils moment”. Most important, it again prompted radical qualifying for the pupil premium. Schools will not then reform of science education in the US. The good news is be able to say, “Well, this is our intake and this is why we that the coalition Government are determined to ensure are performing poorly” if we consider GCSE results that the latest PISA study leads to similar action here. only of those children who qualify for the pupil premium. We are doing so by using examples of what works in the My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton best-performing education nations. (Mr Raab) asked about school places. We are doing a As well as the OECD’s findings, another invaluable significant amount to tackle the problem. There has contribution was made by Sir Michael Barber and been an increase in the birth rate since 2001, which is McKinsey. The seminal 2007 report, “How the world’s now feeding through into an increase in primary school best performing school systems come out on top”, numbers, and there is £800 million of basic need capital provided a blueprint for all nations serious about reforming funding to cover shortages. Capital funding is a priority, their education systems of what they needed to do to albeit that it rather short in the current circumstances. catch up. The 2010 report, “How the world’s most 539WH Education Performance12 MAY 2011 Education Performance 540WH

[Mr Gibb] to 658, and we have 1,000 applications to convert to academy status. Evidence of what works around the improved school systems keep getting better”, provided world shows that only by extending greater autonomy further invaluable insights for all nations aspiring to to schools, trusting professionals to get on with their improve their education system. jobs, providing stronger accountability to local communities and raising teacher quality can nations become among Stella Creasy: I am pleased to hear the Minister the best performing in the world. That is our objective. talking about science being an important subject and something on which the Government wish to measure 528pm progress. Will the Minister update us on what assessment Elizabeth Truss: We have had a most interesting his Department has made of the implications of the debate. I thank everyone who has contributed, particularly lack of science labs many schools will suffer as a result my hon. Friends the Members for Portsmouth North of cancelling the Building Schools for the Future fund (Penny Mordaunt), for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) and projects and the lack of investment in science, particularly for Wells (Tessa Munt), who pitched with me to the in areas such as mine? Backbench Business Committee to secure the debate. I hope that we have future debates on this important Mr Gibb: We are concerned about science, of course, subject, so that we can get to the bottom of what the and we are concerned about science labs, but the state of issue is. our science laboratories came about over the 13 years of We have had a lot of disputes about what is in the Labour Government. Of course there are problems, but table. My hon. Friend the Minister put it very well when we cannot debate now the Building Schools for the he said that average is simply not good enough in Future programme and the capital and funding problems today’s world. We have seen some acknowledgement of that are the consequence of economic mismanagement that by the Opposition. I am an optimist, and I hope over the past 13 years, which we are trying to tackle. that the Opposition will be less defensive about their In the remaining minute, I wish to make a final point. record, so that they can focus on the future and on how If we dismiss what the OECD and McKinsey tell us, to raise standards. That is important for everyone. If and fly in the face of the evidence of what works, we Japan can get 95% of students from 16 to 18 studying will not genuinely tackle the problems. Our recently maths, science, languages and humanities, so can we published schools White Paper was deliberately designed and we can compete internationally. to bring together policies that have worked in other Question put and agreed to. high-performing nations. I would have liked to talk about the academies movement. 5.29 pm We have increased the number of academies from 203 Sitting adjourned. 43WS Written Ministerial Statements12 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS

The ODA continues to make strong progress in preparing Written Ministerial the venues and infrastructure in the Olympic park with 83% of the games-time construction programme now Statements complete. The last piece of turf on the Olympic stadium’s field of play was laid in March, marking the completion of construction on the flagship venue. Construction Thursday 12 May 2011 started on the Olympic stadium just under three years ago in May 2008 and has been completed on time, under budget and with an exemplary safety record. Over 240 UK businesses have won contracts for the BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS construction of the stadium and over 5,250 people have worked on the project over the past three years.

This quarter also saw the completed 6,000-seat velodrome Local Enterprise Partnerships unveiled in February.After the games, the legacy velodrome will be used by elite athletes and the local community and will include a café, bike hire and cycle workshop The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation facilities. The ODA will also today announce that the and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I would like to inform the handball arena is complete and that the basketball House that today I have written to local enterprise arena is nearing completion. partnership chairs and shadow chairs setting out the new measures that BIS is introducing today to support The London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games partnerships as they deliver their ambitions for growth. are continuing to help businesses and people through These initiatives include: the difficult economic times. Some 100 companies that A new £5 million start-up fund for LEPs aimed at helping have worked on the 2012 games have had their achievements those partnerships which do not have any institutional capacity highlighted in the first edition of “Springboard to Success” to get started and get themselves on a sustainable financial which was launched by UK Trade and Investment footing. This funding will be available in 2011-12 only. (UKTI), the ODA and LOCOG at Sport Accord. The The launch of a toolbox for LEPs, which provides information directory showcases 400 UK companies specialising in on economic development activity across Government major infrastructure and sporting project supplies who Departments and ideas for strong LEP/ Government have won contracts at domestic and international sporting co-operation. This includes the contact details of the six events including London 2012, with a view to helping local relationship management teams which BIS has put in place to provide the key first point for contact for LEPs on them win more work in this billion dollar sector. Notable any issues they have. contracts awarded by LOCOG in the last quarter include More details of these initiatives can be found on the an agreement with G4S Secure Solutions (UK) for BIS website through the following address: recruiting, training and managing a 10,000-strong security work force for the games. The terms of this major http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/economic-development/ contract provide for extensive insurance coverage to leps. address potential liabilities, and beyond this, LOCOG has agreed to indemnify G4S for certain claims which cannot be covered by insurance. The Government have confirmed that in the event of a shortfall between CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT LOCOG’s revenues and its costs, LOCOG’s indemnification obligations would be covered by the Government as ultimate guarantor of games funding. Government Olympic Executive The games will also provide a golden opportunity for the tourism industry. The Government’s tourism policy, published in March, aims to help the tourism industry The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh achieve its potential for growth through a range of Robertson): I am publishing today the Government measures including creating a sustainable new model Olympic Executive’s quarterly report—“London 2012 for destination marketing and management, taking Olympic and Paralympic Games Quarterly Report May advantage of the series of major events which the UK is 2011”. This report explains the latest budget position as due to host over the next few years. Major companies at 31 March 2011, and outlines some of the many wider have already pledged support to help match the £50 million economic and social benefits to the UK. of public money the Government have committed through The overall public sector funding package for the VisitBritain. This initiative aims to generate 4 million games remains at £9.298 billion. As reported in the extra overseas visitors over the next four years bringing annual report in February this year, the breakdown of in an extra £2 billion-worth of visitor spend and helping the funding package altered from April 2011 reflecting to create 50,000 new jobs across the country. the changing focus of the programme from construction to the operational delivery of the games. We continue to I would like to commend this report to the Members seek value for money and cost savings in our day-to-day of both Houses and thank them for their continued running of the project. Through a combination of interest in, and support for, the London 2012 games. further savings achieved in the quarter together with reducing risks, the overall anticipated final cost of the Copies of the quarterly report May 2011 are available Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) programme has online at www.culture.gov.uk and will be deposited in reduced by £35 million to £7.266 billion. the Libraries of both Houses. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements12 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

JUSTICE of the MOD Defence Inquests Unit in 2008. These measures have been provided to ensure that there is not a backlog of operational inquests. On 16 March my Inquests (Service Personnel Overseas) right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence announced in a written ministerial statement (Official Report, column 11WS) that repatriation ceremonies for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice those killed in operational theatres will move to RAF (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): My hon. Friend the Minister Brize Norton, in the Oxfordshire coroner’s district, by for the Armed Forces and I wish to make the latest of 1 September. We will again provide additional resources our quarterly statements to the House with details of to the Oxfordshire coroner Mr Nicholas Gardiner. the inquests of service personnel who have died overseas. CURRENT STATUS OF INQUESTS We wish to express the Government’s deep sense of gratitude to all our service personnel who are serving, Since the last statement there have been 17 inquests or who have served, in Iraq and Afghanistan. into the deaths of service personnel on operations in Iraq or Afghanistan. As always, the families of those service personnel who have lost their lives in the service of their country A total of 453 inquests have been held into the deaths in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are very much in of service personnel who have lost their lives in Iraq and our thoughts. Our deepest condolences go to them, and Afghanistan, including 12 service personnel who died in in particular to the families of the 14 service personnel the UK of their injuries. In three further cases, no who have died since our last statement. formal inquest was held. In two of these cases the deaths were taken into consideration during inquest Today we are announcing the current status of inquests proceedings for those who died in the same incident. conducted by the Wiltshire and Swindon coroner, and OPEN INQUESTS other coroners in England and Wales. This statement gives the position at 5 May. Fatalities in Iraq and Afghanistan I have placed tables in the Libraries of both Houses At present there are 88 open inquests to be concluded to supplement this statement. The tables outline the into the deaths of service personnel who died in Iraq status of all cases and the date of death in each case. and Afghanistan, 21 involving deaths in the last six They include information about cases where a board of months. The Wiltshire and Swindon coroner has retained inquiry or a service inquiry has been held. 37 of the remaining open inquests, while 39 are being conducted by coroners closer to the next of kin. Hearing Both our Departments will continue to work closely dates have been set in 16 cases. together to improve our processes and we will continue the Government’s support for coroners conducting inquests There is one remaining open inquest into deaths from into operational deaths. We are grateful to them and operations in Iraq. their staff for their dedication. We would also like to Inquests into the deaths of service personnel who returned thank once again all those people who provide support home injured and information before, during and after the inquest Twelve inquests remain to be held of service personnel process. who returned home injured and subsequently died of Since October 2007 both Departments have provided their injuries. One hearing date has been set. The remaining additional resources for operational inquests. These 11 cases will be listed for hearing when the continuing resources have been provided to the Wiltshire and Swindon investigations are completed. coroner Mr David Ridley due to the repatriation of We shall continue to inform the House of progress service personnel at RAF Lyneham and the formation with the remaining inquests. 23P Petitions12 MAY 2011 Petitions 24P Petitions JUSTICE Sentencing Guidelines (Manslaughter) The Petition of residents of Alyn and Deeside, Thursday 12 May 2011 Declares that Peter Jones, a 24-year-old former pupil of Alun School, Mold, died in hospital following an attack by Gafyn Thomas Denman, 21, who is from the OBSERVATIONS Mold area; notes that Gafyn Thomas Denman was found guilty of manslaughter and was jailed for 40 months for an unprovoked attack; further notes that, at the time of sentencing, Judge Merfyn Hughes QC explained that his hands were tied by the sentencing guidelines in cases ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS of “one-punch” manslaughter such as this. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Green Belt Land (Mangotsfield, South Gloucestershire) Commons urges the Government to review sentencing guidelines for those convicted of manslaughter so that The Petition of the residents of Mangotsfield, Rodway sentences can better reflect the severity of the offence. and Emersons Green, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mark Declares that the Petitioners are concerned by recent Tami, Official Report, 22 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 923.] actions taken by a developer to erect a hoarding fence [P000905] around a site of protected green belt land at Cossham Observations from the Secretary of State for Justice: Street, Mangotsfield, which is used by the local community; and notes that land which has been proved to have been The Government express their deepest sympathy to in local community use can apply for permission to be the family of Peter Jones over their tragic loss. designated as having village green status. The Government have the following observations to The Petitioners therefore request that the House of make. Commons urges the Government to encourage South The maximum penalty for manslaughter is a life Gloucestershire Council to support any forthcoming sentence but, because of the wide-range of circumstances application by local residents for village green status in which a manslaughter conviction can arise, this offence with regard to green belt land at Cossham Street, covers a wider band of sentences than for any other Mangotsfield. offence. Sentencing in individual cases is entirely a matter for the courts, which will take account of all the And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Chris circumstances of the particular case. In doing so, the Skidmore, Official Report, 29 March 2011; Vol. 526, courts will be guided by relevant case law laid down by c. 1P.] the Court of Appeal and any relevant sentencing guidelines [P000912] when determining the appropriate sentence. Observations from the Secretary of State for Environment, The independent Sentencing Council and the Court Food and Rural Affairs: of Appeal are responsible for producing sentencing Commons registration authorities have been under a guidelines. There is no current guideline on unlawful act statutory duty since the late 1960s to maintain the manslaughter but the courts will take account of relevant registers of common land and town or village greens. case law and guidance established by the Court of As part of that function they are required to determine Appeal. The Court of Appeal has concluded that it is applications to amend the registers. Section 15 of the not realistic to treat what is described as “one-punch Commons Act 2006 allows for applications to register manslaughter”as comprising a single set of circumstances; new town or village greens. Land becomes town or cases involving death resulting from a single blow vary village green at the point at which it is recorded in the greatly in their seriousness. In a judgment issued in register of greens. December 2009 on manslaughter cases, the Court of In this case South Gloucestershire council would be Appeal said that responsible for determining any application to register “the manslaughter cases with which we are concerned involved land at Cossham Street, Mangotsfield as a green. The gratuitous, unprovoked violence in the streets of the kind which council must determine the application impartially and seriously discourages law-abiding citizens from walking their streets, particularly at night”. on purely factual evidence and disregard any extraneous matters. The criteria for registration are that the land It went on to say has been used by the inhabitants of the locality or “that crimes which result in death should be treated more seriously, ...so as to ensure that the increased focus on the fact that the neighbourhood within a locality for lawful sports and victim has died in consequence of an unlawful act of violence, pastimes “as of right” (without permission, force or even where the conviction is for manslaughter, should, in accordance secrecy) for at least 20 years. with the legislative intention, be given greater weight”. It is inappropriate for the Government to express an The Government have no plans to request to the opinion on an individual application, and the Government Sentencing Council to produce a guideline on unlawful are therefore unable to accede to this request. act manslaughter.

1291W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1292W

(2) what recent discussions she has had with the Written Answers to Welsh Assembly Government on the establishment of enterprise zones in Wales. [54927] Questions Mr David Jones: Economic development is a devolved matter in Wales and any detailed assessment of the Thursday 12 May 2011 impact of Enterprise Zones on Wales would need to be carried out by the Welsh Assembly Government. However, it is vital that we give Welsh businesses the same competitive advantages as businesses in places like CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Bristol and Liverpool, where we have already committed Archaeology to introducing Enterprise Zones. The Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for (Mrs Gillan), has therefore had initial discussions with Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment the First Minister and has also written to him on two he has made of the effects of the reduction in the occasions setting out our commitment to work with the budget of English Heritage for 2011-12 on its support Welsh Assembly Government to establish Enterprise for archaeology and associated activities. [54887] Zones in Wales. John Penrose: English Heritage has made every effort Both my right hon. Friend and I will continue to to minimise the effects of the reduction in its budget for champion the creation of Enterprise Zones in Wales 2011-12 on its support for archaeology and associated with the new Welsh Assembly Government now the activities. It has done this by protecting, so far as Welsh elections have concluded. possible, its advisory services to local authorities, and its listing, scheduling and other designation activities. Small Businesses In addition, it has carried out a root and branch re-organisation of its processes for prioritising resources Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales to understand and protect heritage, and has maintained what progress the Government has made on the National Heritage Commissions Programme, through introducing tax incentives for small businesses in which it supports the work of others, at the highest Wales. [54971] possible level. Olympic Delivery Authority Mrs Gillan: The Government are committed to providing the necessary support to small businesses in Wales through a number of initiatives, including tax incentives. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many We have reduced the small profits rate of Corporation businesses based in the London borough of Bexley Tax for small companies from 21% to 20%. We have have obtained contracts from the Olympic Delivery increased the lifetime limit on gains eligible for Authority to date. [54841] Entrepreneurs’ Relief from £5 million to £10 million, encouraging entrepreneurs who want to expand their Hugh Robertson: As of April 2011 the Olympic Delivery businesses and reinvest their gains. We have also extended Authority (ODA) had directly awarded contracts to the current small business rates relief holiday for one seven suppliers registered in the London borough of year from October 2011. Bexley. These figures only account for the contracts To encourage investment in businesses with the highest awarded by the ODA to its own top tier of contractors growth potential, we announced a reform of the Enterprise (tier one contractors). The figures do not include the Investment Scheme (EIS) and Venture Capital Tax scheme. contracts further down the supply chain, in tiers two, Subject to State aid approval, the rate of income tax three and so on, which are awarded by the tier one relief for EIS will be increased to 30%. We also announced contractors and not by the ODA. The ODA estimates a reform of the R&D tax credits scheme which will see, that tens of thousands more contracts will be generated subject to State aid approval, the SME rate increased to throughout its supply chains. More information on 200% from April 2011 and 225% from April 2012. businesses that have won Games-related contracts can The Government have also asked the Office of Tax be found at the business section of the London 2012 Simplification to undertake a review examining website: small business’ experience of tax administration and http://www.london2012.com/business recommending possible reforms ahead of the 2012 Budget.

WALES ATTORNEY-GENERAL Enterprise Zones Serious Fraud Office Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what assessment she has made of the effects on the Hugh Bayley: To ask the Attorney-General what economy of introducing enterprise zones in Wales; plans he has for the future of the Serious Fraud Office; [54926] and if he will make a statement. [54916] 1293W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1294W

The Attorney-General: Decisions have not yet been Mr Kenneth Clarke: Yes. The members of the made on future structures for economic crime. The Commission will receive remuneration for the work Secretary of State for the Home Department, in they do to fulfil the Commission’s terms of reference. consultation with the Law Officers and other relevant colleagues, is currently considering options for delivering Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the Government’s commitment to take white collar what funding has been allocated for the Commission crime as seriously as other crime. on a Bill of Rights. [55059]

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Attorney-General if he will Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Commission’s budget for place in the Library a copy of each item of advice he 2011-12 is £97,500 plus £66,000 for the Commissioners’ has received from (a) officials in his Department, (b) remuneration. We will expect the Commission to make the OECD and other UK or international governmental efficient use of its resources in the light of the constraints agencies, (c) private organisations and individuals, (d) imposed by the spending review. the Director of the Serious Fraud Office and (e) others Departmental Legal Costs on the future arrangements for (i) investigating and (ii) prosecuting serious financial crimes committed in (A) Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK and (B) by UK citizens or companies abroad. Justice how much his Department paid in (a) damages, [54917] (b) claimant costs and (c) defendant costs in respect of all civil claims brought against his Department in The Attorney-General: Officials’ advice to Ministers which the claimant was successful or the Department relating to policy advice within Government is covered settled in each of the last three years. [54630] Under Exemption 2—internal discussion and advice—of the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information. Mr Djanogly: The information requested is not held It would therefore not be appropriate to place it in the centrally or recorded in a manner that is easily retrievable Library. to provide a full factual reply to this question. It could The responsibility for releasing any other advice on be obtained only by manually sifting through files and this issue that may have been submitted to my office by invoices for the last three years at a disproportionate outside organisations or individuals would fall to them cost. to make public should they wish to do so. Members: Correspondence

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice when he plans to reply to the letter of 25 January JUSTICE 2011 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Caroline Woods. [54822] Bill of Rights Mr Kenneth Clarke: I apologise for the delay in Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice responding. I will ensure that the right hon. Member whether the Commission on a Bill of Rights will have receives a reply shortly. powers to take evidence from external parties. [55055] Prison Service: Resignations Mr Kenneth Clarke: The terms of reference for the Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Commission on a Bill of Rights state that the Commission how many (a) principal officers, (b) senior officers, should consult with the public, the judiciary and the (c) prison officers and (d) operational support grades devolved Administrations and legislatures. It will be for employed at each prison left the Prison Service in the the Commission to decide what it needs to do in order last 12 months. [55004] to fulfil its terms of reference. Mr Blunt: Information on the number of principal Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice officers, senior officers, prison officers and operational whether the minutes of the meetings of the Commission support grades employed at each Prison Service on a Bill of Rights will be published. [55056] establishment within the National Offender Management Service that left between 1 April 2010 and 31 March Mr Kenneth Clarke: It will be for the Commission to 2011 is contained in a table I have placed in the House determine whether it publishes the minutes of its meetings. Library. Information in respect of contracted establishments Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice is provided by individual contractors. Grading structures on what dates the Commission on a Bill of Rights is may vary. scheduled to meet. [55057] Prisons: Manpower Mr Kenneth Clarke: The dates on which the Commission will meet is a matter for the Commission itself to Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice determine. what the operational staffing requirement was for (a) operational managers, (b) principal officers, (c) senior Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice officers, (d) prison officers, (e) operational support whether the members of the Commission on a Bill of grades and (f) other grades at each prison establishment Rights will receive remuneration for their contribution. on 31 March 2011; and what the staff in post figure for [55058] each such group was on that date. [55001] 1295W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1296W

Mr Blunt: Information on the operational staffing staff are employed at each private sector prison; what requirement for operational managers, principal officers, the prison population was at each such prison on 31 senior officers, prison officers, operational support grades March 2011; and if he will make a statement. [55005] and all other grades at each prison establishment within the National Offender Management Service on 31 March 2011 is contained in a table I have placed in the House Mr Blunt: Information on the number of prison Library. custody officers and other staff employed at each private Information in respect of contracted establishments sector prison establishment within the National Offender is provided by individual contractors. Grading structures Management Service on 31 March 2011 is contained in may vary. the following table. The table also provides prison population figures for each establishment at the end of Prisons: Private Sector March. Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Information for contracted establishments is provided how many (a) prison custody officers and (b) other by individual contractors.

Prison custody officers, other staff and prison population—private sector establishments—end March 2011 Establishment Prison custody officer Other grades Total staff Population1

Altcourse 321 218 539 1,139 Ashfield 146 311 457 357 Bronzefield 145 164 309 522 Doncaster 204 327 531 1,102 Dovegate 262 306 568 1,109 Forest Bank 258 252 510 1,363 Lowdham Grange 212 237 449 935 Parc 305 410 715 1,453 Peterborough 257 228 485 980 Rye Hill 141 115 256 622 Wolds 102 106 208 353 Private sector total 2,353 2,674 5,027 9,935 1 Population figures are for 25 March 2011

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT went to (i) Palestinian refugees, (ii) Gaza and (iii) the West Bank. [55020] Libya: Overseas Aid

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Duncan: The table shows how much aid the UK International Development what the cost to the public has provided to the Palestinian people over the last purse has been of aid operations in Libya since three years through our imputed share of European February 2011; and what proportion of such aid has Union (EU) aid spending in the Occupied Palestinian been distributed (a) through the EU, (b) through UN Territories (OPTs); through UN agencies such as the agencies and (c) bilaterally. [55018] UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), World Food Programme and UN Mines Action Services; and through Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International bilateral programming which includes both financial Development (DFID) has contributed £13.4 million assistance to the Palestinian Authority (PA) and various through international humanitarian agencies including projects across the OPTs, the United Nations. This has helped fly home over 12,700 migrant workers from the borders, provided Our support to Palestinian refugees is provided through emergency shelter for up to 12,000 people driven out of UNRWA and helps provide basic services, such as their homes by the fighting, funded the emergency education, health care and social services, to Palestinian evacuation of 5,000 people from Misrata, and supplied refugees across the OPTs, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. urgently needed food, medical supplies and medical The figure for UK support to refugees through the EU personnel. DFID has also contributed around £5.25 million is estimated from the proportion of EU support to through the European Commission (EC). In addition, UNRWA relative to its total support to the OPTs. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has contributed £500,000 to the United Nations Department It is not possible fully to disaggregate UK aid to for Political Affairs for activity to encourage a positive Gaza and to the West Bank. For example, our financial political and stabilisation process in Libya. assistance to the Palestinian Authority (PA), via a World Bank Trust Fund, helps pay for basic services and Palestinians: Overseas Aid salaries of public sector workers in both Gaza and the West Bank. The table disaggregates Gaza-specific assistance Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for (such as support for humanitarian and early recovery International Development what aid his Department activity) where it is possible to do so. EU assistance to has provided to Palestinian people (a) through the EU, the OPTs is similarly provided via a variety of instruments, (b) through UN agencies and (c) directly in each of and from the information available it is not possible to the last three years; and what proportion of such aid disaggregate between Gaza and the West Bank. 1297W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1298W

2008 % 2009 % 2010 %

EU (imputed ¤64.69 million — ¤72.52 million — ¤51.79 million — share) Refugees ¤10.64 million 16 ¤23.73 million 33 ¤9.45 million 18 Gaza and West ¤54.05 million 84 ¤48.79 million 67 ¤42.34 million 82 Bank

UN Agencies £19 million — £32.88 million — £33.73 million — Refugees £19 million 100 £24.93 million 76 £27 million 80 Gaza £0 0 £7.95 million 24 £6.73 million 20 West Bank £0 0 £0 0 £0 0

Other support £59.55 million — £47.64 million — £57.64 million — Refugees £0 0 £0 0 £0 0 Gaza £2 million 3 £13.45 million 28 £0.90 million 1.5 West Bank £0 0 £0 0 £4.4 million 7.5 West Bank and £57.55 million 97 £34.19 million 72 £52.34 million 91 Gaza

CABINET OFFICE (exc. VAT) to the NLA for the period November 2009- October 2010; and (b) £21,925.00 (exc. VAT) to the Departmental Procurement CLA for the period July 2009-June 2010.

Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Minister for the Sheffield Cabinet Office whether he has made an estimate of the number of (a) ongoing and (b) planned (i) research John Mann: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet projects and (ii) statistical data collections that have Office how many invitations he has received to visit been cancelled or curtailed across Government since Sheffield in 2011 to date. [52131] May 2010; and if he will make a statement. [53908] Mr Maude: I have no record of receiving any invitations Mr Maude: Information on ongoing and planned to visit Sheffield in 2011. research projects and statistical data collections that have been cancelled or curtailed across government John Mann: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet since May 2010 is not held centrally.However, I understand Office what representations he has received from that the National Statistician has requested that departments individuals and organisations within the Sheffield City inform her of cessations of statistical outputs and of region on the coordination of Government policy and any consultations around statistical outputs and statistical its implications for that region. [52132] work programmes and that the UK Statistics Authority are monitoring this. Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the list of official meetings by Ministers with external organisations Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Minister for the which is published on a quarterly basis, in accordance Cabinet Office what recent assessment he has made of with the Ministerial Code. the contribution of (a) research projects and (b) statistical data collections in evaluating the value for John Mann: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet money of public spending; and if he will make a Office when he last visited Sheffield in an official statement. [53909] capacity. [52139]

Mr Maude: The contribution of research projects Mr Maude: I have not visited Sheffield in an official and statistical data collections in evaluating value for capacity since the formation of this Administration on money of public spending is not held centrally. 11 May 2010. Newspaper Licensing Agency: Fees

Martin Horwood: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet TRANSPORT Office how much his Department has paid in fees to (a) the Newspaper Licensing Agency and (b) the Consumer Licensing Agency in the most recent Biofuels: Exports financial year for which figures are available. [55197] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Maude: License fees paid by the Cabinet Office to for Transport how much his Department has spent on the (a) Newspaper Licensing Agency (NLA); and (b) research into Britain’s capacity to export biofuel Copyright Licensing Agency (CLA) for the most recent overseas in the latest period for which figures are year for which figures are available were: (a) £1,176.40 available; and if he will make a statement. [53635] 1299W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1300W

Norman Baker [holding answer 3 May 2011]: The lead Department for this is the Department for the Department for Transport has not undertaken research Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA). The specifically looking at Britain’s capacity to export biofuel regulations require strategic noise maps and action overseas. plans to be prepared for urban areas and major roads, The Renewable Fuels Agency’s (RFA) annual reports railways and airports. The mapping and action plan include a section on the effects of the Renewable Transport process is being undertaken on a five year cycle. Fuel Obligation (RTFO) in the UK, including impacts DEFRA published noise maps for England’s roads of the RTFO on UK business. The RFA annual reports on 16 May 2008 and the corresponding noise action can be found at: plans were formally adopted by the Secretary of State http://www.renewablefuelsagency.gov.uk/rtfo for DEFRA on 15 March 2010. The action plans set In addition, as part of their Renewable Energy Statistics out a framework for managing noise rather than propose work, Department for Energy and Climate Change specific mitigation measures. They have been designed completed research in July 2010 on the UK Production to identify ‘Important Areas’ that are impacted by noise of Biofuels for Transport in 2009. This covered UK from major sources and therefore must be investigated. production capacity and biofuels end markets. The action plans also require those ‘Important Areas’ that contain ‘First Priority Locations’ to be investigated Departmental Responsibilities as a priority. DEFRA is producing maps of Important Areas, Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for identifying those which include First Priority Locations Transport what proportion of the existing workforce of and those which do not. The Highways Agency will his Department’s Shared Service Centre he expects to examine these locations over the coming years, taking be required to run the Centre after its privatisation. into account current Government policy on noise mitigation [54120] and available funding. There are 10 First Priority Locations in Worcestershire: Norman Baker: I refer the hon. Member to the answer three between Junctions 4 and 4a, three between Junctions I gave her on 4 May 2011, Official Report, columns 760-61W. 4a and 5, one between Junctions 5 and 6, two between Junctions 6 and 7 and one between Junctions 7 and 8. Driving Tests In the present economic climate, the Highways Agency is not able to take action for noise mitigation reasons Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport alone but, whenever resurfacing of its network becomes if he will consider the merits of changes to the driving due as part of the normal maintenance cycle, a material test so that the test is taken in two parts and includes a with quiet noise properties is used. No major maintenance probationary period; and if he will make a statement. schemes are programmed for Worcestershire in the [52772] foreseeable future.

Mike Penning: Our learning to drive arrangements Motor Vehicles: Registration already provide for people to train in a protected environment using a provisional licence. Also the driving test is already conducted in two parts, a computer-based Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for theory test and a practical driving test. Research indicates Transport (1) what assessment has been made of the that learner car drivers typically take around a year to effects of the issuing of new vehicle registration qualify. documents to stretched limousines which have not passed the single vehicle approval test; [52779] Our policy is to avoid additional regulation whenever possible, and we would be very concerned about imposing (2) how many stretched limousines have been issued any regulation that reduced the mobility of young with a new vehicle registration document that have not people who had acquired their full licence, because of previously passed the single vehicle approval test; the impact that it would have on their participation in [52780] the labour market and in further and higher education. (3) how many stretched limousines issued with a new vehicle registration document have subsequently failed M5: Worcestershire the single vehicle approval test. [52781]

Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: There are around 7,500 limousines Transport what noise mitigation measures for the M5 currently on the road. Of these, 175 appear not to have in Worcestershire the Highways Agency has (a) had the evidence required to demonstrate they fully prepared and (b) implemented. [53830] meet the standard provided at the time of their registration. There is no information held on how many of these Mike Penning: In 1999 the Highways Agency prepared have since failed a single vehicle approval test. a list of locations on the motorway and trunk road The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency and local network in England most seriously affected by noise. authorities have responsibility for enforcing the standards The list was published on 11 November 1999, Official on construction and use of these vehicles on the road. Report, columns 681-83W. No locations on the M5 in This includes periodic roadworthiness testing, on-road Worcestershire were identified. spot checks, operator licensing compliance and local The management of noise issues is currently being authority licensing standards where the vehicles are reviewed as a result of the European environmental used for hire and reward. These arrangements are considered noise directive, introduced into UK legislation in October sufficient to mitigate any road safety risks that may be 2006 through the environmental noise regulations. The associated with the use of these 175 vehicles. 1301W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1302W

Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Rescue Services: Milford Haven Transport what steps his Department has taken to inform the owners of stretched limousines about the Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for requirement to pass the single vehicle approval test. Transport how many call outs were received by Milford [52782] Haven Coastguard in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010. [52788] Mike Penning: The Department for Transport does not routinely notify owners of the technical construction Mike Penning: The Maritime Rescue Co-ordination requirements to be met prior to registering a vehicle in Centre at Milford Haven co-ordinated responses to the Great Britain. The relevant regulations are publicly following incidents (those graded as Alert, Distress and available and manufacturers and importers, or their Uncertainty): appointed representatives, usually deal with compliance issues before the owner takes delivery of the vehicle. Number of incidents In the case of stretched limousines, the Department 2008 680 identified a general lack of awareness by importers and 2009 770 issued Guidance for Operators in early 2008. This is 2010 774 available from the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency Roads: Accidents (VOSA) and the Department’s website at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/taxis/ Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the average Motor Vehicles: Testing cost to the public purse of a (a) fatality, (b) serious injury and (c) slight injury caused through an accident involving a vehicle in the last year for which figures are Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for available. [53783] Transport what consideration he has given to requiring motorists to display proof of a valid MOT on their Mike Penning: The values for preventing fatalities vehicles. [52783] and injuries used by the Department for Transport are published in unit 3.4.1. of its transport appraisal guidance Mike Penning: The benefits of such a requirement (WebTAG), available at: would be outweighed by the costs that it would impose. http://www.dft.gov.uk/webtag/documents/expert/ The Police and Vehicle Operator and Services Agency unit3.4.1.php (VOSA) can already determine whether a vehicle has a Table 3, as follows, presents the components that valid MOT by checking against the MOT database. In make up these values. The direct costs to the public addition, a vehicle must have a valid MOT (if required) purse comprise medical and ambulance costs, and police for its keeper to be issued with a vehicle excise duty disc. costs.

Table 3: Average value of prevention of road accidents by severity and element of cost—June 2009 £ Casualty related costs Accident related costs Accident Medical and Insurance and Damage to severity Lost output ambulance Human costs Police cost admin property Total

Fatal 596,674 5,615 1,175,101 1,848 291 10,674 1,790,203 Serious 23,767 14,244 161,713 245 181 4,907 205,056 Slight 2,959 1,253 14,090 57 110 2,903 21,372 All injury 13,225 3,055 48,546 105 122 3,270 68,323 Damage only — — — 3 52 1,828 1,883

Roads: Lighting The agency have assessed and implemented switching lighting off between midnight and 5.00am on motorways where there is a good safety record and traffic flows Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for during the night are low. This is delivering up to 40% Transport whether he has made an assessment of the savings in energy costs and carbon at these locations. potential (a) financial and (b) carbon savings of (i) a reduction in the density of lighting on main road and There are no plans to switch off lighting during parts motorway routes and (ii) switching off lighting on of the night on all purpose trunk roads. sections of main road and motorway routes where there is a good safety record and traffic flows during Roads: Safety the night are low. [53578] Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: The Highways Agency has no plans to Transport what recent assessment he has made of the reduce the density of lighting (such as turning off every level of road safety in (a) the London borough of other lamp) on all purpose trunk roads (main roads) or Bexley, (b) Greater London and (c) Kent. [54850] motorways as this can cause patchy lighting and could compromise safety. This can be tiring for motorists and Mike Penning: The Department has made no such may conceal hazards in the darker patches. assessments. However, local authorities do have a duty 1303W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1304W under section 39 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to carry The standards set out that there should be a maximum out studies into accidents within their area and to take wait of 31 days between diagnosis and first definitive such measures as appear appropriate to prevent such treatment for all cancers. The NHS is expected to deliver accidents. this in 96% of cases, allowing for patients who do not want to be treated or are unable to be treated within this time scale. In the most recent period for which statistics are available (quarter 3 2010-11), 98.5% of patients HEALTH received their first definitive treatment within 31 days of diagnosis. Brain: Injuries Confectionery: Sugar Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent discussions he has had with Health if he will take steps to improve the provision of representatives of the confectionery industry on the long-term care and support for those with brain sugar content of their products. [55213] injuries. [55200] Anne Milton: The Secretary of State for Health, my Paul Burstow: Responsibility for commissioning services right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire to meet the needs of those living with brain injuries lies (Mr Lansley), meets with representatives from the with local heath bodies and, as brain injury rehabilitation confectionary industry in a wide range of forums. services are classed as a specialised service, they are He has held no discussions recently with the currently commissioned by the 10 regional groups. confectionary industry about the sugar content of their products. Cancer London Ambulance Service: Manpower Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many (a) drivers, (b) paramedics and (c) Health what steps his Department is taking to reduce other staff in the London Ambulance Service were waiting times for cancer treatment. [55308] employed to provide services direct to the public on 1 April in each year since 2005. [55198] Paul Burstow: “Improving Outcomes: a Strategy for Cancer”, a copy of which has already been placed in the Mr Simon Burns: Information is not collected in the Library, confirmed that the cancer waiting time standards format requested. have been retained within the national health service. The following table provides the numbers of national These standards are in place to ensure patients with health service staff employed in London Ambulance suspected cancer and diagnosed cancer are seen and Service NHS Trust by main staff group and by level as treated within appropriate time scales. at 30 September for each year since 2005.

NHS hospital and community health services: Staff in the London Ambulance Service NHS Trust by main staff group and by level as at 30 September each year 20051 2006 2007 2008 2009 20102

London Ambulance Service NHS 3,784 4,112 4,080 4,126 4,719 4,939 Trust

Professionally qualified clinical 1,159 2,425 2,524 2,699 3,144 3,223 staff Qualified ambulance service staff 1,159 2,425 2,524 2,699 3,144 3,223 Manager 198 93 105 175 194 243 Emergency Care Practitioner n/a 43 55 53 72 63 Ambulance paramedic 961 984 1,004 1,113 1,588 1,812 Ambulance Technician n/a 1,305 1,360 1,358 1,290 1,105 Support to clinical staff 2,040 1,007 959 887 968 1,113 Support to ambulance staff 2,040 1,007 959 887 968 1,113 Ambulance personnel 1,403 329 330 404 479 525 Trainee Ambulance Technician n/a 327 180 40 21 57 Clerical and administrative 297 351 449 443 468 531 Healthcare assistant 242 00000 Trainee ambulance personnel 98 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a NHS infrastructure support 585 680 597 540 607 604 Central functions 270 334 282 262 285 374 Clerical and administrative 270 334 282 262 285 374 Hotel, property and estates 73 89 85 80 88 91 Clerical and administrative 256428 Estates (maintenance and works) 69 84 79 76 86 83 Support worker 200000 Managers and senior managers 242 257 230 198 234 139 1305W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1306W

NHS hospital and community health services: Staff in the London Ambulance Service NHS Trust by main staff group and by level as at 30 September each year 20051 2006 2007 2008 2009 20102

Senior manager 29 47 48 56 72 48 Manager 213 210 182 142 162 91 n/a = Not applicable. See note 1. 1 In 2006 ambulance staff were collected under new, more detailed, occupation codes. As a result, qualified totals and support to ambulance staff totals are not directly comparable with previous years. 2 The new headcount methodology for 2010 data is not fully comparable with previous years data due to improvements that make it a more stringent count of absolute staff numbers. Further information on the headcount methodology is available in the Census publication here: www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/publications/010_Workforce/nhsstaff0010/Census_Bulletin_March_2011_Final.pdf Notes: It is impossible to separately identify those staff who were ’employed to provide services direct to the public’ from the census data. It is assumed that all staff who are not in the ’NHS Infrastructure Support’ staff group have some contact with patients or the public. Data Quality: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant analyses. Source: The NHS Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census.

London Ambulance Service: Redundancy (2) how much the NHS spent on medical supplies and equipment in 2010-11; and if he will make a Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State for statement; [54930] Health how many redundancies the London (3) what plans he has to review best practice for Ambulance Service plans to make from each category procurement in the NHS; [54931] of job in 2011-12. [55199] (4) what steps his Department takes to evaluate NHS contracts for supply and delivery of medical supplies Mr Simon Burns: This information is not collected and equipment for best value; and if he will make a centrally. The right hon. Member may wish to contact statement. [54932] the London Ambulance Service NHS Trust for the information requested. Mr Simon Burns: In 2009-10, the latest year for which Medical Treatments: VAT figures are available, the national health service spent approximately £37 billion with external suppliers on the Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health procurement of goods and services, of which £16.5 what steps he has taken to inform those in receipt of billion is spent by NHS providers (NHS trusts and disability benefits that they are entitled to buy medical NHS foundation trusts). This £16.5 billion comprises a products at zero rate value added tax. [52763] number of different expenditure categories such as drugs, non-clinical supplies and services, transport and Maria Miller: I have been asked to reply. establishment, all of which may include elements of Our Award Notices do not mention benefits or other medical supplies and equipment, but the category “clinical schemes. Leaflet DLA 95 covers these at pages 6 and 7 supplies and services” will cover most of the purely (a copy is held in the Library). The leaflet also contains medical supplies and associated equipment purchased links to the ″Direct Government″ website, which provides by NHS providers. Expenditure in this particular category further information. for 2009-10 was £4.5 billion. In future years NHS providers will continue to be NHS: Drugs free to make their own procurement decisions from within their own budgets. However, efficiencies across Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for the NHS in the region of £15-20 billion by the end of Health what procedures are in place to monitor the 2013-14 are required under the Quality, Innovation, implementation of the recommendations in Best Productivity and Prevention initiative which includes Practice for Ensuring the Efficient Supply and projected efficiency savings of £1.2 billion from procurement Distribution of Medicines to Patients, published by his by the end of 2013-14. To achieve this the Department Department in February 2011. [55013] has a comprehensive procurement strategy in place based around three key work strands of greater Mr Simon Burns: “Best Practice for Ensuring the transparency on pricing; promoting and improving the Efficient Supply and Distribution of Medicines to Patients” national collaborative bodies such as NHS Supply Chain; was published in February jointly by the Medicines and product standardisation and rationalisation. Supply Chain Group. The Department carefully monitors The National Audit Office published a report on its data about supply problems to see if patients are being review of procurement by NHS providers in February harmed because of delays in the supply of medicines. 2011. The Department agreed with most of their NHS: Procurement recommendations, and which are already being addressed by these work strands. Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department does not make assessments of individual Health (1) how much the NHS plans to spend on NHS contracts. The role of the Department is on procurement in each year from 2012 to 2015; [54929] making the tools and information available for the NHS 1307W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1308W to make the best procurement decisions. All NHS bodies one or more national health service organisations and must follow their Standing Financial Instructions to finally, if all other options were unsuccessful, a public/private ensure that any contracts entered into are value for partnership. This final option would only be for money and comply with any legal requirements. management with all NHS staff and assets remaining wholly owned by the NHS. Patient Records: Data Loss None of these options have yet been agreed as the Tripartite Formal Agreement remains in draft and is Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for being discussed with the Department. When it has been Health what measures are in place in NHS hospitals to finalised and the agreement has been signed by all protect patient records from data loss. [55207] parties, the trust will publish the agreement on their website. Mr Simon Burns: The security of patient records is a local responsibility and each national health service Trauma: Health Services body is legally responsible for holding information securely. However, the Department provides comprehensive policy, Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for guidance and supporting tools for security compliance Health if he will take steps to ensure that best practice to NHS bodies, including centrally-funded training in trauma care learnt in Afghanistan is applied in the resources. NHS; and if he will make a statement. [55131] The Department has also provided electronic patient record systems that are protected by the highest levels Mr Simon Burns: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer of access controls and other security measures, a secure I gave on 28 March 2011, Official Report, column NHS network for exchanging information that is centrally 196W, to my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester monitored and strongly protected, and secure NHS (Rob Russell). e-mail facilities that encrypt all data in transit within the system. Radiotherapy EDUCATION

Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Children in Care: Standards Health pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2010, Official Report, column 127W, on radiotherapy, for Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for what reason the national radiotherapy dataset was not Education what steps he is taking to improve the published as proposed in April 2011; and when his standard of children’s homes. [54396] Department expects to publish the dataset. [55302] [holding answer 9 May 2011]: Paul Burstow: Release of the radiotherapy dataset is Tim Loughton In governed by the Radiotherapy Clinical Information September 2010 I launched a new sector led support Group (RCIG). The RCIG has decided to produce a and challenge programme for children’s homes. The report on the dataset collection for 2009-10, which is aim of this programme is to support the sector itself in due for publication in June. developing and sharing evidence of effective practice so that children and young people in children’s homes The RCIG is also planning to release the full dataset receive the best possible care. via the cancer commissioning toolkit (CCT) by the end of year. The CCT gives commissioners access to high A range of activities is now under way, in close quality data about cancer services across the treatment collaboration with local authorities, independent children’s pathway and allows trusts to benchmark their performance homes providers, Ofsted and leading researchers in the against one another. field. These include analysing data about children’s homes, working with areas which have high concentrations St Helens and Knowsley Health Authority of children’s homes to identify features of good and poor practice and commissioning research about the Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health characteristics and needs of the workforce in children’s whether the North West Strategic Health Authority has homes. The Department for Education is working closely proposed the tendering of the management of the St with partners in the sector to make sure that the learning Helens and Knowsley Hospitals NHS Trust in the from this work is shared as widely as possible to support course of its discussions with the Trust on a tripartite service improvement. agreement. [55023] Revised and streamlined regulations, guidance and National Minimum Standards for children’s homes came Mr Simon Burns [holding answer 10 May 2011]: As into effect in April 2011. These emphasise the importance stated in my reply to the hon. Member for St Helens of delegating decision making as much and as clearly as North (Mr Watts) of 4 May 2011, Official Report, possible to children’s homes staff, so that they are able columns 857-58W, the North West Strategic Health to offer children the personal support they need. Authority has undertaken discussions with St Helens and Knowsley Hospitals National Health Service Trust Children: Protection regarding its progress towards achieving foundation trust status, and did raise a number of options for the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for trust’s long-term future. These ranged from a successful Education what steps he plans to take in response to application in their own right including resolution of the recommendations of the Munro Review of Child the private finance initiative issue, a partnership with Protection. [55032] 1309W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1310W

Tim Loughton: Professor Eileen Munro published the Mr Gibb [holding answer 3 May 2011]: Around findings of her independent review of child protection, 320,000 young people will receive guaranteed support “A Child Centred System” on 10 May 2011. Professor in the 2011/12 academic year as a result of the measures Munro’s recommendations are wide-ranging and look we announced on 28 March 2011. This includes those at how to re-focus the child protection system on meeting who will receive weekly payments under the transitional the needs of the child, rather than complying with arrangements, and the estimated 12,000 young people prescriptive rules and targets. who may be eligible each year for a guaranteed annual I welcome Professor Munro’s thorough analysis of bursary of £1,200. Beyond this, the 16-19 Bursary fund the issues. It is important that we consider carefully, is discretionary and decisions as to who will be supported with professionals themselves, how best to respond to and to what level will be made by schools, colleges and her proposals to bring about the radical, long-term training organisations. reform needed. I have therefore announced that an Education Maintenance Allowance implementation working group drawing together key individuals from the social work profession, local government, health, police, education and the voluntary Nadhim Zahawi: To ask the Secretary of State for sector will be formed. The Government will work closely Education (1) what the average annual payment to with this group to develop a full response to Professor recipients of education maintenance allowance eligible Munro’s recommendations before the summer recess. for payment at £30 per week was in the most recent 12 months for which figures are available; [54288] Departmental Official Hospitality (2) how many and what proportion of recipients of education maintenance allowance received less than £800 a year in the last year for which figures are Nadhim Zahawi: To ask the Secretary of State for available; [54284] Education how much his Department and its predecessors spent on hospitality for journalists and members of (3) what the average number of weekly payments was media organisations in each year between 2005 and to recipients of education maintenance allowance in 2010. [54542] the last year for which figures are available; [54283] (4) what the average annual payment was to Tim Loughton: The Department does not hold expenses recipients of education maintenance allowance in the data to the level requested by the hon. Member as we most recent year for which figures are available; [54282] gather expenditure details under a general hospitality (5) what the average number of weekly payments was account code. Therefore the information required is not to recipients of education maintenance allowance who held centrally and could be provided only at were eligible for the top rate of £30 per week in the last disproportionate costs. However, I can confirm that the year for which figures are available. [54281] Department for Children, Schools and Families held an annual Christmas reception for journalists and media Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s organisations at an approximate cost of £500 per year. Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. Departmental Pensions Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, will write to the hon. Member with the information requested and a Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for copy of his reply will be placed in the House Libraries. Education what proportion of his Department’s Education: Finance budget he expects to be spent on staff pensions in each of the next five years. [54560] Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Tim Loughton: The Department is still in the process Education how much funding he has allocated for the of working through the details on the level of work provision of top-up bursaries to students in receipt of force needed to deliver the coalition Government’s education education maintenance allowance who will receive a agenda in future years and therefore is not in a position smaller or no award in 2011-12. [53652] to comment on the amount it will spend on staff pensions in each of the next five years. Mr Gibb: A total of £115.5 million will be allocated in the academic year 2011/12 to schools, colleges and Details of staff pension costs to the Department are training providers for discretionary bursaries. This will published annually within the Resource Accounts and allow schools, colleges and training providers to: pay available on the Department’s website. Information on guaranteed bursaries to young people in vulnerable costs for the last financial year (2010-11) will be available groups; pay discretionary bursaries to young people after the first week of July 2011: starting courses in 2011/12; and to provide ‘top up’ http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/departmental information/ support from the discretionary fund to young people reports/a00390/annual-departmental-reports-accounts-and- covered by the education maintenance allowance spending-reviews transitional arrangements where necessary. The amounts paid under each of these categories will depend on local Discretionary Learner Support Fund circumstances.

Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Education what estimate he has made of the number of whether people in receipt of a 16 to 19 education young people who will receive funding from the 16 to bursary will be able to have their payment paid directly 19 Bursary Fund in (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13 and (c) into a bank account; and what discussions he has had 2013-14. [53117] with representatives of banks on the scheme. [54012] 1311W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1312W

Mr Gibb: Under our proposed arrangements for the In the summer of 2011 the Money Advice Service will 16-19 Bursary Fund, schools, colleges and training be publishing an interactive tool on their website which providers will have discretion to make arrangements for will allow young people to find out the forms of paying bursaries to students in ways that best fit individual identification that are accepted by each bank offering needs and circumstances. the basic bank account. We are consulting on the details of the Bursary Fund and will work with the Association of Colleges, Sixth Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Form Colleges Forum and others to consider the Education by what mechanism he expects schools to arrangements, including the handling of cashless payment transfer funds to students in respect of 16 to 19 systems. The Department has not held any discussions bursaries. [55039] with representatives of banks relating to the scheme. Mr Gibb: Under our proposed arrangements for the Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for 16-19 Bursary Fund, schools, colleges and training Education what his policy is on the continuation of providers will have discretion to award bursaries to bursary funding in 2012-13 for those in the second year students in ways that best meet individual needs and circumstances. of study. [54720] Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The most vulnerable young people will be Education what arrangements his Department plans to eligible to receive a bursary of £1,200, regardless of put in place to facilitate the transfer of funding for 16 which year of study they are in. In all other cases to 19 bursaries to schools and colleges. [55040] schools, colleges and training providers will be able to exercise their discretion to award 16-19 bursaries to Mr Gibb: The Young People’s Learning Agency will young people in ways that best fit local needs and make allocations for the 16-19 Bursary Fund to schools, circumstances, including determining the approach that colleges and training providers following the end of the should be taken to young people in their second year of formal consultation on the new arrangements, which study. includes a question on the proposed methodology for allocating the funding. The consultation closes on 20 Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for May 2011. Education whether local authorities will be required to provide data to further education and sixth form colleges Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for to enable them to assess the eligibility for discretionary Education what measures his Department plans to put learner support and bursaries of 16-year-olds applying in place to evaluate the 16 to 19 bursary scheme. to enrol at an institution in September 2011 in respect [55046] of students (a) in receipt of free school meals in year 11, (b) from a household with a low income, (c) in care Mr Gibb: Currently schools, colleges and training and (d) in receipt of income support. [54880] providers with an allocation of discretionary learner support funds are required to provide management Mr Gibb: We will not require local authorities to information to the Young People’s Learning Agency. provide data to further education and sixth form colleges We expect that this arrangement will continue for the in respect of young people’s eligibility for the new 16-19 16-19 Bursary Fund, allowing us to monitor its Bursary Fund. We will provide guidance to schools, introduction. In addition we are considering how best colleges and training providers regarding the kind of to evaluate the impact of the new arrangements. evidence they might wish to seek from young people claiming a guaranteed £1,200 bursary. Beyond that, Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for schools, colleges and training providers will be able to Education when he plans to issue guidance to colleges exercise their discretion to award bursaries to young and schools on implementation of the proposed 16 to people—including those who were in receipt of free 19 bursary scheme. [55047] school meals in year 11—in ways that best fit their needs and circumstances. Mr Gibb: The Young People’s Learning Agency, who will be responsible for the operation of the new 16-19 Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Bursary Fund, will issue short, focused guidance to Education what discussions he has had with banks on schools, colleges and training providers after the end of provision of bank accounts for 16-year-olds who are to the formal consultation on the new arrangements. receive bursaries. [54881] Free School Meals Mr Gibb: We have had no discussions with banks on the provision of bank accounts for 16-year-olds who Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for are to receive bursaries. Arrangements for young people Education what evidence of demand for school places to open bank accounts were discussed at the time of the his Department requires to be submitted by schools introduction of the education maintenance allowance wishing to be approved as free schools. [54228] and are unchanged by the announcement of the 16-19 Bursary Fund. Young people aged 16 are able to open a Mr Gibb: The criteria for assessing the evidence of basic bank account, which is offered by 16 members of demand in a free school application are set out in the the British Bankers Association. This account will allow ‘how to apply’ form, which is available on the Department’s for receipt of the bursary, including by cashless means, website at: and will allow funds to be withdrawn via ATMs as well http://education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/typesofschools/ as via standing orders and direct debits where necessary. freeschools/a0074965/applying-to-become-a-free-school 1313W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1314W

Further Education: Inspections School type School name

Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Cheddar First on what basis he would request an inspection of a (a) Chewton Mendip C of E Primary further education and (b) sixth form college which is Churchfield C of E VC Primary judged outstanding by Ofsted under the powers proposed Coxley Primary in clause 41 of the Education Bill. [53118] Croscombe C of E Primary Mr Gibb: The power proposed in clause 41 of the Draycott and Rodney Stoke C of E First Education Bill exists across a number of inspection East Brent C of E First remits. There is a similar power in respect of school Elmhurst Junior inspections, boarding welfare inspections and education Hindhayes Infant inspections of independent schools. The power has been used extremely rarely in relation to schools and we Horrington Primary envisage that it will only be used in exceptional Lympsham C of E First circumstances for colleges. We expect this to be in cases Mark C of E First where, for example, the Secretary of State has significant Meare Village Primary concerns about an institution. Oakhill C of E Primary Music: Education Priddy Primary Shepton Mallet Infant Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for Shipham C of E First Education what plans he has for the future of the music St Andrew’s C of E Junior grant beyond 2012. [53267] St Benedict’s C of E Junior St Cuthbert’s C of E Infant Mr Gibb: The Government will announce the future of music funding when we publish the National Plan for St John’s C of E Infant Music Education later this year. St Joseph & St Teresa Catholic Primary St Joseph’s Catholic Primary and Nursery Pupils: Work Experience St Lawrence’s C of E Primary St Paul’s C of E Junior Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what funding his Department is providing St Vigor & St John C of E Primary for the administration associated with arranging work Stoberry Park experience placements for secondary school students. Walton C of E Primary [54825] Weare C of E First Wedmore First Mr Gibb: In future, in line with our policy of giving greater autonomy to schools, it should be up to schools Wells Central C of E Junior to determine whether and how work experience is provided. West Pennard C of E Primary Wookey Primary Schools: Sports

Pupil referral units Mendip Centre Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Education which schools received funding from his Department for the promotion of schools sports in Wells constituency Middle schools Fairlands in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; and what the type of Hugh Sexey school was in each such case. [55049] Secondary schools Blue Tim Loughton: All maintained schools in the Wells Crispin constituency received additional funding for PE and King Alfred Sports College sport in both 2009-10 and 2010-11. These schools are Kings of Wessex Community listed by school type in the following table. St Dunstan’s Community

School type School name Whitstone

Primary schools Axbridge C of E First Baltonsborough C of E Primary Special schools Avalon Berrow C of E Primary Special Educational Needs: Finance Binegar C of E Primary Bowlish Infant Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Brent Knoll C of E Primary Education what constitutes a severe disability for the Brookside Community Primary purposes of assessing the award of a 16 to 19 bursary; Burnham on Sea Infant and whether colleges will be expected to verify receipt Butleigh C of E Primary of disability living allowance in determining an award. [53650] 1315W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1316W

Mr Gibb: Disabled young people who are in receipt is shown in Table 1 to be placed in the House Library. of income support will be eligible to receive a guaranteed The rates at which the various police authorities charged bursary of £1,200. Other disabled young people will be the UK Border Agency for the use of police cells during able to apply for a bursary from their school or college. the 2010-11 financial year are shown in Table 2. Historic We are consulting on the details of the new arrangements costs are not readily available and it would involve and will work with the Association of Colleges and disproportionate costs to establish them. Sixth Form Colleges Forum and others to consider how schools, colleges and training providers might identify All those that are arrested on suspicion of an immigration those students who would benefit from support under offence, i.e. have not already been served immigration the proposed arrangements. papers, are to be taken to a designated PACE (Police Written Questions: Government Responses and Criminal Evidence) custody suite. The agency would normally only use police cells for one night, with a Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for normal maximum of two nights. In exceptional cases a Education when he plans to respond to question 53332, detainee may spend up to five nights continuously in a on the bursary fund in the North East, tabled on 21 police cell (seven nights if removal directions have been April 2011 for answer on 27 April 2011. [55070] set within 48 hours) if, for instance, the individual is awaiting transfer to more suitable UK Border Agency Mr Gibb: A response was issued to the hon. Member or Prison Service accommodation and the police are on 9 May 2011, Official Report, column 966W. content to maintain detention. Table 2: Police authority charge rates for police cells 2010-11 Police authority Charges per 24 hrs (£) HOME DEPARTMENT Crime: Drugs South Yorkshire 350.00 Humberside 329.80 Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the North Yorkshire 266.31 Home Department how many people were (a) arrested Durham 303.00 and (b) charged with possession of class (i) A, (ii) B Cleveland 111.00 and (iii) C drugs in each police force area in each year West Yorkshire 240.00 since 1997. [53419] Northumbria 301.40 Merseyside 300.00 James Brokenshire: The number of arrests for “drug Greater Manchester 342.00 offences” is published within the Home Office Statistical Lancashire 130.00 Bulletin ‘Police Powers and Procedures’. It is not possible to separately identify what class of drugs these arrests Cumbria 110.00 were for. Convictions are published by the Ministry of Cheshire 124.00 Justice in their ‘Criminal Statistics’ publication. Current South Wales 280.00 and previous copies of these publications are available Gwent 250.00 from the Library of the House. Dyfed Powys 280.00 Driving Offences North Wales 330.00 Dorset 463.00 Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Avon and Somerset 190.00 Home Department how many roadside checks for (a) Wiltshire 463.00 speed, (b) use of seat belts and child restraints, (c) Devon and Cornwall 409.00 vehicle safety and roadworthiness and (d) driving Gloucester 110.00 under the influence of alcohol or drugs each police Bedfordshire 189.10 force carried out in each of the last 12 months. [53485] Cambridgeshire 210.58 Derbyshire 347.44 James Brokenshire: In relation to parts (a) to (c) of Essex 251.93 the question and drug testing of part (d), these data are Hertfordshire 268.82 not collected. The number of breath tests conducted as Leicestershire 319.47 well as the number of Vehicle Defect rectification scheme Lincolnshire 516.42 notices issued by the police is published as part of the Northamptonshire 747.83 Home Office Statistical Bulletin ‘Police Powers and Procedures’. Current and previous copies of these Norfolk 100.35 publications are available from the Library of the House. Nottinghamshire 494.16 Staffordshire 341.84 Police: Prison Accommodation Suffolk 68.39 Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Warwickshire 536.32 Home Department on how many occasions her West Mercia 800.79 Department has used police cells to hold immigrants in West Midlands 803.46 each police force area in each year since 1997; and what British Transport Police 350.00 the average rate paid per night by her Department to Hampshire police 300.00 each police force for the use of such accommodation Hertfordshire police 110.00 was in each such year. [53516] Kent police 420.65 Metropolitan police 508.00 Damian Green: Information on the number of occasions Surrey police 700.00 in which immigrants have been held in police cells Sussex police 750.00 during the period 1 January 1997 to 31 December 2010 1317W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1318W

Table 2: Police authority charge rates for police cells 2010-11 Economic Situation Police authority Charges per 24 hrs (£)

Thames Valley police 414.11 David Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the All Scottish authorities 250.00 Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the likelihood of a double-dip recession. [54893] Prevent Review Danny Alexander: The UK returned to positive growth Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the in the first quarter of this year. The Government have Home Department when she plans to publish her always been clear that the recovery will be choppy, but review of the Prevent strategy. [54879] the independent Office for Budget Responsibility and all other credible forecasters, including NIESR released Mrs May: A thorough and detailed review was required just last week, are very clear that the UK recovery will to ensure that Prevent works as well as possible. The continue. review and new strategy will be published shortly. Financial Services Compensation Scheme Visas: Kunai Doshi Mr Swayne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of what recent representations he has received regarding State for the Home Department when she expects to the decision not to distinguish between providers and decide on the application for a long stay visa from Mr intermediaries in respect of the Financial Services Kunai Doshi, case reference number D1145300. [55285] Compensation Scheme interim levy fee; and if he will make a statement. [53685] Damian Green: Given the personal nature of this inquiry and public nature of the response, I am unable Mr Hoban: The Government receive representations to divulge any details of the individual case. If my hon. on various issues from a wide range of stakeholders. Friend would like to write to me on this matter, I would Rules governing the levies imposed on members of the be willing to respond in a more substantive manner. Financial Services Compensation Scheme are made by the Financial Services Authority, which is independent of the Government TREASURY Financial Stability Board: Investments Apprentices Nicholas Soames: To ask the Chancellor of the Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what representations he has made to the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the likely Financial Stability Board on exchange traded funds; number of work experience places he expects to be [55134] created in each (a) region, (b) local authority and (c) parliamentary constituency in each of the next four (2) what assessment he has made of the adequacy of years, following his decision to fund an additional the regulatory framework in the London markets in 80,000 work experience places; and how many work respect of exchange traded funds. [55135] experience places in total he expects there to be in each such case in each such year. [54603] Mr Hoban: The Government are aware of the recent developments in the Exchange Traded Funds industry Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. and is working closely with the FSA and Bank of England to analyse the risks associated with these products. The Department has not set expectations for, or determined likely volumes of Work Experience placements The Financial Stability Board has carried out analysis by locality. Jobcentre Plus District Managers will assess, of the exchange traded funds market at the request of on an ongoing basis, the requirement for placements in its members. The UK is a member of the Financial their locality based on customer needs and the local Stability Board and is supportive of further analysis in labour market. The Department plans to publish official this area. statistics for the number of starts for work experience placements. This is expected to be from autumn 2011 Fuels: Prices enabling us to ensure that our statistics are accurate and robust and that we adhere to the guidelines set by the Alun Cairns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer UKSA. pursuant to the answer of 4 April 2011, Official Report, Child Tax Credit: Overseas Residence column 724-5W, on fuels: prices, if he will publish the pump price data collected by his Department. [55136]

David T. C. Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Justine Greening: Energy price statistics including Exchequer how much was paid in child tax credits to weekly fuel prices are published by the Government people domiciled outside the UK in each of the last under the statistics tab of the Department of Energy three years. [55068] and Climate Change’s website at: Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the http://www.decc.gov.uk/ answer I gave him on 5 May 2011, Official Report, Open source data is also available from: column 914W. www.petrolprices.com 1319W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1320W

Members: Correspondence including those which incentivise using energy efficiently. In developing the White Paper, we are considering views Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Chancellor of the raised in response to the EMR consultation on demand-side Exchequer when he plans to respond to the letter from issues. the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight of 8 April 2011, Fossil Fuels ref. 1/91445/2011. [53936] James Wharton: To ask the Secretary of State for Justine Greening: HMRC plan to reply to the hon. Energy and Climate Change what proportion of UK Member on or before 16 May 2011 on behalf of the energy was generated from fossil fuels in each year Chancellor of the Exchequer. since 2008. [55457] Pensions: Private Sector Charles Hendry: The percentage of UK electricity generated from fossil fuels in each year since 2008 is Rachel Reeves: To ask the Chancellor of the shown in the following table: Exchequer how many and what proportion of people were contracted (a) in and (b) out of defined benefit Percentage pension schemes in 2010. [53068] 2008 79.7 Danny Alexander [holding answer 28 April 2011]: 2009 73.7 There are estimated to be 26.6 million jobs in the UK. 20101 76.0 The number of employees that are members of contracted 1 Provisional out defined benefit pension schemes is 6.8 million or Fuel Poverty: Sunderland around 25% of employees. The number of individuals that are not members of contracted out defined benefit schemes is 19.8 million or around 75%. Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households in Pensions: Public Sector Sunderland he estimates were living in fuel poverty in 2009-10. [55429] Rachel Reeves: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate has been made of the savings Gregory Barker: In 2008, the latest year for which to the Exchequer of ending contracting out for data is available, the number of households living in fuel poverty in the Sunderland local authority was defined-benefit public sector pension schemes. [52977] estimated to be around 24,400. This is equivalent to around 20.6% of households in Sunderland. Danny Alexander: The contracted out rebate for Defined Benefit pension schemes was worth £7.3 billion in.2008-09 Meters (based on data from the NPS). NPS data does not differentiate between public and Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy private sector employees and as such a precise estimate and Climate Change when the framework for the on the savings attributable to either group cannot be procurement of the first generation of communication made. and data service contracts for the development of However, HM Treasury estimates that there are currently smart meters will be prepared; and what process that around 5.3 million active members of defined benefit preparation will entail. [55458] pension schemes employed within the public sector. Charles Hendry: The strategy for the procurement of first-generation DCC service providers is currently being prepared by my officials in DECC, with input from ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE stakeholders and from Infrastructure UK, who have expertise in large-scale public sector procurement. We Electricity intend to complete the strategy and begin the procurement process as soon as practicable. We will set out further Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for details of the process and the timetable for the procurement Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to process when we are in a position to do so. ensure that his proposals for electricity market reform support energy efficiency measures. [54368] Oil: Refineries

Charles Hendry: The Government are committed to Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for encouraging and incentivising energy efficiency within Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has the home, in the public and private sectors. DECC is made of the potential effects of his proposed floor already rolling out energy efficient measures through price for carbon on the operating costs of companies in the Green Deal, the Carbon Reduction Commitment, the oil refining industry. [53998] Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) and Community Energy Saving Programmes (CESP), among Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply. others. An assessment of the impacts of the carbon price DECC is currently developing a White Paper which floor is given in HMRC’s Tax Information and Impact will set out proposals for the UK’s electricity market Note published alongside the Budget. This is available reform (EMR). The EMR is a package of policies online at which will complement and interact with existing policy http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2011/tiin6111.pdf 1321W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1322W

Warm Front Scheme Robert Neill: We have no record of any Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government ever Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for invoking his or her powers under paragraph 7 of Schedule Energy and Climate Change what estimate his 4 to the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Department has made of the number of households Areas) Act 1990. previously on the waiting list for the Warm Front scheme who are no longer eligible for the Warm Front Local Government Finance scheme under the eligibility criteria from April 2011. [55339] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what the Gregory Barker: All successful applications on the membership of the Local Government Resource waiting list before the scheme stopped accepting applications Review working group is; what remuneration each in December 2010 will be serviced. member of the group will receive; and how frequently he expects the group to meet; [55336] (2) what the membership is of the Local Government Resource Review technical group; what remuneration COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT each member of the group will receive; and how frequently he expects the group to meet. [55335] Citizenship Survey Robert Neill: The Terms of Reference of the Local Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Government Resource Review made clear that we would Communities and Local Government what representations conduct extensive engagement with interested parties. his Department has received on the Citizenship Survey. As part of this process, external working groups have [54911] been set up to help inform the work of the review, and we continue to welcome representations. Andrew Stunell: The summary report on the consultation The Business Organisation working group includes, on this issue, and the associated consultation responses, or has invited, representatives from the following can be found online at: organisations: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/communities/ Association of Convenience Stores csconsultresponses British Chambers of Commerce The Department has also received a letter from the British Council of Shopping Centres UK Statistics Authority. I am placing a copy of the British Property Federation Department’s reply to the letter in the Library of the House. British Retail Consortium Confederation of British Industry First Time Buyers Federation of Small Businesses London First Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors. Communities and Local Government what assessment The local authority working group includes, or has he has made of the effectiveness of the FirstBuy invited, representatives from the following organisations: scheme in assisting first-time buyers. [55195] Association of Chief Police Officers Association of Police Authorities Grant Shapps: FirstBuy will help 10,000 prospective Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy first time buyers purchase new build homes over the next two years in England. Housebuilders will match Core Cities fund the Government’s investment, to provide a 20% Fire Finance Network equity loan which can be used towards a deposit. This Greater London Authority will help-first time buyers to enter the housing market, Institute of Revenues, Rating and Valuation support the construction industry, create new jobs and London Councils increase the pace of economic growth. We expect the Local Government Association first homes to be available in the summer. Society of County Treasurers Historic Buildings: Planning Permission Society of District Council Treasurers Society of Municipal Treasurers Stephen Pound: To ask the Secretary of State for Society of Unitary Treasurers Communities and Local Government (1) whether he Special Interest Group of Municipal Authorities. has placed a requirement on any local planning authority The local authority technical working group includes, (LPA) to supply in default professional advice in connection or has invited, Chris Bilsland, Paul Dale, Will Godfrey, with heritage advice to another LPA as authorised Hugh Grover, Stephen Hughes, Margaret Lee, Sean under paragraph 7 of schedule 4 of the Planning (Listed Nolan, and David Smith, who provide advice on a Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990; [55065] personal and independent basis rather than representing (2) on how many occasions he has used his powers specific bodies. under paragraph 7 of schedule 4 of the Planning (Listed These working groups meet as and when required, Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990. [55066] and members receive no remuneration. 1323W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1324W

Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Communities and Local Government what discussions he has had with (a) the Chancellor of the Exchequer Elephant Poaching: Africa and (b) the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the Local Government Resource Review. 15. Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for [55337] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps the Government are taking through international organisations Robert Neill: The Secretary of State for Communities to tackle the poaching of elephants in central and west and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member Africa. [55101] for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), has regular discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my Richard Benyon: As a party to the convention on right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) international trade in endangered species (CITES) the and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and UK supports its efforts to maintain or enhance countries’ Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince enforcement capabilities. Next week, the UK will be Cable) and other Cabinet colleagues on a range of participating in a CITES-organised rhino and elephant issues, including the Local Government Resource Review. enforcement task force meeting which will exchange intelligence reports and methodologies and develop Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for strategies to tackle the illegal trade in both animals Communities and Local Government what discussions across their ranges. he has had with (a) the Local Government Association, (b) Liverpool city council, (c) the North West River Ecology Development Agency, (d) the Merseyside Local Enterprise Partnership, (e) the Core Cities Group and (f) the 16. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Federation of Small Businesses on the Local Government Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is Resource Review. [55338] taking to improve the water quality and ecology of rivers in England. [55102] Robert Neill: Ministers and officials have regular discussions with representatives of local government, Richard Benyon: The measures we will take to prevent business and other interested organisations on the Local deterioration and improve the ecological status of all Government Resource Review. We continue to welcome water bodies (including rivers) in England by 2015 are any further representations to help inform our work. set out in River Basin Management Plans. The first phase of the review will conclude in July An approach to engage local communities to develop when we will consult on the Government’s proposals, improvement plans is being piloted and will be supported providing an opportunity for the mentioned groups to by over 8,500 investigations into specific issues and an make representations and provide their feedback. additional £92 million over the next four years to fund action to tackle them. Waste Disposal Private Sewers Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance 17. Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department issues to local authorities on reducing Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress and preventing municipal waste. [52956] she has made on transferring the ownership of private sewers to statutory sewerage companies. [55103] Robert Neill: My Department works closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Richard Benyon: DEFRA continues to work closely on these issues and the ongoing Waste Review. with water and sewerage companies and other interested Last year my Department moved to revoke guidance parties in preparation for the proposed transfer of private which pressured councils to introduce fortnightly rubbish sewers. Draft regulations to effect the transfer were laid collections. before Parliament on 26 April. Subject to the regulations being approved, the transfer is proposed to take place On 11 April 2011, both Departments sent a joint on 1 October this year. letter to local authorities clarifying the legal position on backdoor bin charging. I have placed a copy of this Uplands Review letter in the Library of the House. 18. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Written Questions: Government Responses Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent representations she has received on her Department’s Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for uplands review. [55104] Communities and Local Government when he plans to respond to question 51594 on former regional Mr Paice: Let me thank the hon. Member and the development agency assets, tabled on 1 April 2011 for Committee she chairs for highlighting the importance answer on 5 April 2011. [55071] of Uplands. We have received numerous positive reactions from a Robert Neill: Question 51594 was answered on 10 wide range of stakeholders to the conclusions of the May 2011. Uplands Policy Review, which was announced on 10 March. 1325W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1326W

The value and potential of our Uplands have been Richard Benyon: The information submitted by the overlooked for too long and this is the beginning, not Moroccan authorities was not broken down to the level the end of this Government’s commitment to the Uplands. of individual recipients and it is therefore not possible to make such an analysis. Bovine Tuberculosis Floods: Insurance 19. Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects to announce measures to tackle the spread of Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, bovine tuberculosis. [55105] Food and Rural Affairs if she will publish the future flood insurance models she is considering for Mr Paice: We will announce a comprehensive and implementation following the end of the Statement of balanced TB Eradication Programme for England shortly. Principles in 2013. [55340] This is a complex and sensitive issue and we received a large number of responses to our consultation, which we have been considering carefully. Richard Benyon: A working group which includes representatives from the Government, the Environment As I told the NFU conference in February we must Agency, the insurance industry and other organisations ensure that we have clear and practical solutions to the is looking at a range of potential flood insurance models issues which were raised, failing which we may not for the future. proceed. These discussions include the role that specialist brokers can play in helping people at high flood risk to access Departmental Manpower insurance, the potential role of local authorities, and various pooling arrangements for flood risk. Further Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for details on the models that have been considered to date Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what public will be provided in the working group’s interim report, sector job reduction targets have been set for her which is due to be published shortly. Department and its non-departmental public bodies for each of the next 24 months; and what steps she Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to take to meet such targets. [51524] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether her Department has made an assessment of the effect of Richard Benyon: The Department does not have ″job ″ inability to obtain home and business flood insurance reduction targets . We have committed to reducing our on the domestic and business property markets in areas administration costs across the Department and its where flood defence schemes have been postponed; non-departmental public bodies by 33% by the end of [55350] the current spending review period. (2) what assessment her Department has made of the To achieve this we are looking first to save as much as availability of flood insurance in areas where flood possible from non-pay costs, including significant reductions defence schemes have been postponed. [55351] in the use of consultants, operational savings in IT and estates and other non pay costs. We have operated a freeze on external recruitment Richard Benyon: The three working groups that were since 25 May 2010, and have made a commitment to established after last year’s Flood summit are examining avoid compulsory redundancies wherever possible. We this and other questions about flood insurance and risk are therefore aiming to achieve the cost reduction required reduction, with a view to establishing a roadmap beyond through normal staff turnover, voluntary exits, then 2013 when the current Statement of Principles ends. voluntary redundancies wherever possible. The existing statement commits insurers to continue We are currently running a departmental voluntary to offer insurance to existing customers where they are exit scheme. Following the departures from this round at significant risk and where there are plans in place to of exits we will need to re-assess the position and reduce that risk within five years. savings we have achieved before taking decisions on next steps. Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA’s non-departmental public bodies are managing Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has their own staff exit schemes. established any criteria for flood insurance for the new flood insurance framework after 2013. [55352] EU-Morocco Fisheries Partnership Agreement Richard Benyon: A working group which includes Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for representatives from the Government, the Environment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Agency, the insurance industry and other organisations answer of 4 May 2011, Official Report, column 785W, is looking at a range of potential flood insurance models on the EU-Morocco Fisheries Partnership Agreement, for the future, and has agreed a set of common principles whether the information submitted to the European for how a future model should function. Any potential Commission by the Moroccan authorities distinguished models will be assessed against these criteria. The criteria between benefit to the indigenous Saharawi population will be set out in the working group’s interim report, and benefit to Moroccan settlers. [55076] which is due to be published shortly. 1327W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1328W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE In November we published our ‘National Action Plan’ to address peace and security for women in DRC Democratic Republic of Congo: Arms Control under UN Security Council Resolution 1325. This sets out our planned work for the coming year, and seeks to Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for address the problem at all levels, including through Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his security and programmes to support women in DRC. Department takes to monitor the (a) supply of arms The document is available on the Foreign and to and (b) use of arms by militia and other non-state Commonwealth Office website, as is ‘Human Rights groups in the Democratic Republic of Congo. [55030] and Democracy: The 2010 Foreign and Commonwealth Office Report’, in which DRC features as a country of Mr Bellingham: The UK is a strong supporter of the concern: UN arms embargo and other measures to restrict the http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/human-rights/around- supply of arms to militias operating in the country. The the-world/human-rights-report/ arms embargo was renewed on 30 November 2009 under UN Resolution 1896. This resolution also backed Departmental Legal Costs a sanctions regime to provide for measures against individuals or entities supporting illegal armed groups. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Under UN Resolution 1896, the Group of Experts is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his mandated to investigate breaches of the arms embargo Department paid in (a) damages, (b) claimant costs and support to illegal armed groups. The Group of and (c) defendant costs in respect of all civil claims Experts produces an annual report which is used as a brought against his Department in which the claimant basis for determining which individuals could be designated was successful or the Department settled in each of the for sanctions. We have stayed in touch with the Group last three years. [54633] of Experts and have offered as much support to them as possible. Mr Bellingham: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) recognises the successful management of Democratic Republic of Congo: Females health and safety to be an essential part of corporate risk management, a key management objective and an Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for integral part of its business performance, and takes all Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the necessary steps to ensure that all legal, moral and British embassy in Kinshasa takes to monitor the economic obligations so far as is reasonably practicable situation of women in Eastern Congo; and if he will are met. make a statement. [55028] Our figures show that the FCO paid the following amounts for (a) damages: Mr Bellingham: To monitor the situation in Eastern 2010-11: £424,032 Congo, we work with non-governmental organisations 2009-10: £212,900 and other local and international civil society groups, as 2008-09: not available well as the UN peacekeeping mission to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), which is an important tool and (b) claimant costs: in monitoring human rights abuses. The UK also supports 2010-11: £523,620 the work of Margot Wallström, the UN Special 2009-10: £258,110 Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict. 2008-09: not available. Women continue to face extremely high levels of We do not keep records of (c) defendant costs in sexual and gender-based violence in DRC. We have respect of all civil claims brought against the Department consistently lobbied the DRC Government, both bilaterally in which the claimant was successful or the Department and with our EU partners, to implement necessary settled. reforms and tackle impunity. Our ambassador to DRC The figures above are for claims on civil damages and takes every appropriate opportunity to raise the issue of do not include employment tribunals. sexual violence against women with the DRC authorities. Records for 2008-09 are not kept in a format which I visited the DRC in July of last year, and raised enables easy retrieval of the data. To retrieve the full concerns about human rights with various DRC data for 2008-09 would incur disproportionate cost. Government Ministers. I stressed that the DRC’s human rights record must improve. I met Foreign Minister Thambwe and urged the Government of DRC to Indonesia: Religious Freedom implement fully President Kabila’s “Zero Tolerance” policy on perpetrators of sexual violence. In February I Sajid Javid: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign also welcomed the conviction of the senior commander, and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he Lt. Col. Mutuare Daniel Kibibi, and eight other soldiers has made of levels of religious freedom in Indonesia. for their role in the mass rape in the town of Fizi, [55078] eastern DRC. United Nations Mission in the Democratic Republic Mr Jeremy Browne: Indonesia’s constitution provides of Congo (MONUSCO), the UN peacekeeping force in for religious freedom for all and the country has strong the DRC, plays a vital role in improving the security of pluralist and inclusive traditions. However, despite civilians of the DRC. The UK’s position in the UN Indonesia’s positive progress on human rights, we are Security Council has made sure that the priority for the concerned about recent violent incidents against religious force is protection of civilians. minorities. 1329W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1330W

Our ambassador raised freedom of religion concerns purse and (b) net cost to the UK economy of the UK’s with the Indonesian Attorney-General on 21 April 2011. membership of the EU in the last year for which On 5 May 2011, the EU in Jakarta held a meeting for figures are available. [53140] EU partners with members of the Ahmadiyya community that was subjected to a violent attack in February 2011. Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply. Tackling discrimination and protecting minority The Treasury has reviewed a wide range of studies by communities was also discussed with the Indonesian external commentators that attempt to assess the economic Ministry of Foreign Affairs at the EU-Indonesia Human costs and benefits of EU membership. These reviews Rights Dialogue in Brussels on 9 March 2011. are regularly updated by the Treasury to ensure that it is Along with our EU partners, we continue to call for providing Parliament and the public with up-to-date religious tolerance across Indonesia and to press the information. authorities to ensure respect for the rights of all religious The most recent updates, along with a previous literature minorities. review from 2005, were published on the Treasury’s website Iran http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ foi_costbenefit_eumembership.htm Mr Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign on 1 December 2010 following a request under the and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he Freedom of Information Act. has made to the Iraqi Government on Camp Ashraf; Projections for UK’s gross and net contributions to and if he will make a statement. [53684] the EU budget are provided by the Office for Budget Alistair Burt: Following an incident on 8 April 2011 Responsibility in its Economic and Fiscal Outlook. The at Camp Ashraf, I released a statement calling on the latest publication (March 2011) is available online at: government of Iraq to cease violent operations in Camp http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/econ-fiscal- Ashraf immediately. Our embassy officials, including outlook-march.html our ambassador in Baghdad, have also raised concerns The table including all transactions with EU institutions about the incident with the Iraqi President, Prime Minister, is table 2.16 of the supplementary economy tables (also Foreign Minister and Minister of Human Rights. We available online). have urged the Iraqi authorities to take immediate steps to calm the situation at the camp; ensure that medical United Arab Emirates: AssetCo supplies are able to enter; and ensure that the human rights of camp residents are respected. We will continue Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for to monitor developments at the camp closely. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the use of (a) military and (b) other Libya: Armed Conflict equipment sold to the Government of United Arab Emirates by AssetCo plc in recent actions in (i) Manama, Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Bahrain and (ii) other cities or towns in Bahrain; and if and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make an he will make a statement. [54207] assessment of the compatibility of providing arms to the anti-government forces in Libya with UN Security Alistair Burt [holding answer 5 May 2011]: We have Council Resolution 1973. [50610] seen no evidence that military or other equipment sold by AssetCo plc has been used in Bahrain. We have not Alistair Burt: We must do everything to comply with seen Emiratis on the streets in Bahrain and we have seen both Security Council Resolutions (UN SCR). The no evidence that Gulf Cooperation forces have done legal position is clear: the arms embargo applies to the anything other than safeguard installations. The UK whole territory of Libya. But at the same time UN SCR Government take their arms export responsibilities very 1973 allows all necessary measures to protect civilians seriously, and operate one of the most rigorous arms and civilian populated areas. export control regimes in the world. We do not export equipment where there is a clear risk it could be used for Members: Correspondence internal repression.

Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he plans to reply to WORK AND PENSIONS the letter from the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye Crisis Loans: Housing Benefit of 17 February 2011, on behalf of her constituent Mr Robert Edmonds, reference AR/LS/947. [55137] Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many of the crisis loans made from the Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Social Fund were made as interim payments pending did not receive my hon. Friend’s letter of 17 February benefit receipt in each year since 2009; and what 2011. We received a copy on 10 May 2011 and have proportion of funding for crisis loans these payments transferred it to the UK Border Agency for reply. represented. [54191] UK Membership of EU Steve Webb: The information available is shown in the following table. Information for 2010-11 will not be Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for available until after the Secretary of State for Work and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Pensions’ Annual Report on the Social Fund for 2010-11 estimate he has made of the (a) gross cost to the public has been published later this year. 1331W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1332W

Chris Grayling: There has been no recent assessment Crisis loan awards in 2009-10 in Great Britain of the effectiveness of the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002—known as COSHH. However All crisis loan initial awards (Thousand) 2,697 COSHH implements, among other, Directive 98/24/EC, Crisis loan awards made for alignment 1,100 the chemical agents directive, and the UK was obliged purposes (Thousand) to assess the impact of the first five years of practical Proportion of all crisis loans funding which 31.3 was for alignment payments (percentage) implementation of chemical agents directive in 2007. Notes: This assessment was prepared for the UK Government 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics but in this by the Health and Safety Commission and the Health case we only have Management Information available. It is not quality assured and Safety Executive (HSE). It is available on the HSE to the same extent as Official/National statistics and there are some issues with website at: the data, for example, it does not include applications which were processed clerically and have not yet been entered on to the Social Fund Computer http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/meetings/hscarchive/2007/ System. 060207/c20.pdf 2. The number of initial awards does not include awards made on review. 3. The question has been interpreted as asking for the volumes of crisis loan The assessment concluded that while it was too early awards for alignment purposes as interim payments are different and do not to assess the effect of the implementing regulations on come under the Social Fund remit. 4. The proportion of all crisis loan funding which was for alignment purposes occupational health and safety, as even if enough time is different to the proportion of awards because of the different award had elapsed for potentially significant improvements to amounts given for different crisis loan applications. Awards for alignment occur, it would be challenging to differentiate between purposes tend to be lower than those for other crisis loan awards. 5. Crisis loans for alignment purposes can be awarded prior to a new benefit the effects of the regulations, effects of other initiatives, claim or to the applicants first wage. Awards for alignment to first wage are e.g. targeted inspector activity, and background trends small (less than 5% of all alignment awards). in improving health and safety. Source: DWP Social Fund Policy, Budget and Management Information System and The UK will be required to undertake the next assessment Annual Report by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the Social Fund 2009-10 of the implementation of the chemical agents directive later this year and HSE is currently considering the Disability Living Allowance: Autism most appropriate way to do this.

Housing Benefit Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of people with autism in receipt of the middle Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for rate of disability living allowance. [47894] Work and Pensions what his policy is on giving tenants in the private rented sector the choice of whether to Maria Miller: Figures for the number of people with receive local housing allowance directly. [50649] autism in receipt of the middle rate of DLA are not collected separately. Such figures are included within Steve Webb: We continue to support the principle the broader category of learning difficulties. that tenants in the private rented sector should be The information available is in the following table. responsible for managing their rental payments. There are safeguards in place so that housing benefit can be Number of people in receipt of the middle care rate of disability living allowance where the main disabling condition is learning difficulties—August 2010 paid to the landlord if the tenant is unable or unlikely to All Middle care rate pay their rent. Benefit is also paid direct to the landlord if the tenant is in arrears by eight weeks’ rent. All 3,176,200 1,059,800 From April 2011 we are widening local authority Learning difficulties 367,400 181,000 discretion to pay housing benefit direct to the landlord Notes: 1. The preferred statistics on benefits are now derived from 100% data sources. only if it would help the customer secure a new tenancy However, the 5% sample data still provide some detail not yet available from or remain in their current home at a reduced rent. We the 100% data sources, in particular, more complete information on the disabling condition of DLA claimants. DWP recommends that, where the will work closely with local authorities to ensure this detail is only available on the 5% sample data, or disabling condition (DLA) is provision is used in very specific circumstances where required, the proportions derived should be scaled up to the overall 100% total landlords are reducing rents to a level that is affordable for the benefit. This has been done here. 2. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 100. for customers. 3. Caseload totals show the number of people in receipt of an allowance and exclude those with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for 4. Learning difficulties includes the following disabling conditions: Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the ‘F86’—‘Down’s Syndrome’ effects on levels of private sector lending to housing ‘F87’—‘Fragile X syndrome’ ‘F90’—‘Other Learning Disability’ associations of changes in the number of housing ‘F91’—‘Autism’ association tenants paying the housing benefit element ‘F92’—‘Asperger Syndrome’ of universal credit direct to their landlord compared ‘F94’—‘Retts Disorder’ Source: with equivalent levels at present; and what discussions Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 5% sample he has had with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government on this matter. [52750] Health Hazards: Regulation Steve Webb: We said in the recent Welfare Reform Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work White Paper that there are advantages in paying the and Pensions what recent assessment he has made of housing component to individuals, but we also recognise the effectiveness of the Control of Substances the importance of stable rental income and private Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002. [55279] sector lending for social landlords. 1333W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1334W

Together with the Secretary of State for Communities of the impact of the housing benefit measures introduced and Local Government, we are considering a range of last month. The work will include the effects of the options for achieving this, such as the use of direct measures on families. debits and other protection mechanisms which could The Department of Communities and Local safeguard landlords’ incomes. Moreover, we are retaining Government, The Scottish Government and Welsh a facility in universal credit for direct payments to Assembly Government are working in close partnership landlords. with the DWP and contributing to the costs of the review. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what discussions he had had with representatives of (a) social landlords, (b) local authorities, Mel Stride: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (c) lenders, (d) third sector organisations and (e) and Pensions if he will bring forward proposals to tenants organisations on payment direct to landlords of retain or reinstate arrangements for housing benefit to the housing element of universal credit. [52752] be paid direct to private landlords. [47602]

Steve Webb: The Department for Work and Pensions Steve Webb: We continue to support the principle have direct discussions on universal credit, and the that tenants in the private rented sector should be housing element of universal credit, with a range of responsible for managing their rental payments. There stakeholder groups. These groups include local authorities, are safeguards in place so that housing benefit can be landlord representatives and welfare organisations. paid to the landlord if the tenant is unable or unlikely to We have also said that there are advantages in paying pay their rent. Benefit is also paid direct to the landlord the housing component to individuals, but we also if the tenant is in arrears by eight weeks’ rent. recognise the importance of stable rental income for From April 2011 we are widening local authority social landlords. We are considering a range of options discretion to pay housing benefit direct to the landlord for achieving this, such as the use of direct debits and only if it would help the customer secure a new tenancy other protection mechanisms which could safeguard or remain in their current home at a reduced rent. We landlords’ incomes. Moreover, we are retaining a facility will work closely with local authorities to ensure this in universal credit for direct payments to landlords. provision is used in very specific circumstances where landlords are reducing rents to a level that is affordable Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for customers. and Pensions what estimate he has made of likely claimant (a) on-flow and (b) off-flow rates for Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for housing benefit in each year to 2019-20. [53501] Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of any change in the (a) number and (b) value of rent Steve Webb: The requested information is not available. arrears in the private rented sector since the introduction Experimental official statistics on housing benefit of direct payment of housing benefit to tenants. [54647] flows from November 2008 to November 2010 are available, and are published at the bottom of the following Steve Webb: The Department published its assessment link: of the impact of direct payment of housing benefit to http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbctb tenants in its Two Year Review of the operation of the The latest published forecast of the total housing local housing allowance. This report was published on benefit caseload to 2015-16 is provided in the following 10 February and a copy is available in the House of table. Commons Library.

Housing benefit caseload Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for (Thousand) Work and Pensions what representations he has 2010-11 4,785 received on whether tenants in the private rented sector 2011-12 4,834 should be able to decide who receives their housing 2012-13 4,779 benefit payments. [54648] 2013-14 4,650 2014-15 4,538 Steve Webb: The Department has received representations 2015-16 4,464 during the current parliamentary session on the subject Source: of direct payment of housing benefit to private rental Budget 2011 forecasts, available at: sector landlords from: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/index.php?page=medium_term National Landlords Association Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Greater London Authority Work and Pensions what research his Department has Crisis (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the effects on Shelter individual families of the changes in housing allowances which took effect in April 2011. [55010] Citizens Advice. Other organisations, such as the Residential Landlords Steve Webb: The Department has commissioned a Association and the British Property Federation, have consortium of academics and research organisations made submissions to the Work and Pensions Select led by Ian Cole, professor of housing studies at Sheffield Committee proposing the reintroduction of tenant choice Hallam university to undertake an independent review for housing benefit payments. 1335W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1336W

Several similar letters and representations have been Incapacity Benefit: Mental Health received from Members of Parliament in respect of their constituents and local organisations. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for how many recipients of (a) incapacity Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for benefit and (b) employment and support allowance Work and Pensions whether there will be provision for mental health was a factor in their incapacity for work tenants in the private rented sector to decide to whom in each constituency in the last period for which figures the housing element of universal credit is paid. [54649] are available; and what proportion of recipients of each such benefit such cases represented. [52465] Steve Webb: The Government see the main purpose of the benefit system as helping people into work. This Maria Miller: The information requested has been is why customers claiming housing benefit according to placed in the Library. local housing allowance rules have their payment made to them directly, except where they are unable to handle National Identity Fraud Unit their financial affairs or where they have got into rent arrears of eight weeks or more. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work We intend to take these principles forward into universal and Pensions how many cases were referred to the credit so private-rented sector tenants, moving onto National Identity Fraud Unit in each year since 1997; universal credit for the first time, will generally be paid how many such cases were investigated in each such direct. We are, however, retaining a facility for direct year; and how many such cases subsequently resulted in payment to landlords. a conviction. [53460] Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what representations he has Chris Grayling: Jobcentre Plus does not collect statistical received from (a) Shelter and (b) Crisis on the direct information relating to the number of cases referred to payment to landlords of housing benefit in respect of National Identity Fraud Unit since 1997, how many tenants in the private rented sector. [54650] cases were investigated in each year; and how many cases subsequently resulted in a conviction. Steve Webb: Representations have been received from both Shelter and Crisis on the direct payment of housing Offshore Industry: Safety benefit for tenants in the private rented sector. Both Crisis and Shelter have stated that the reintroduction of Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for tenant choice in deciding whether payments should be Work and Pensions whether he plans to apply the made to landlords would encourage landlords to stay in health and safety regulations associated with the offshore the housing benefit market. Shelter based their oil and gas sector to offshore wind development in the recommendation on a survey of claimants and a poll of UK. [54666] landlords and they made these points in their response to the housing benefit reforms announced in the June Chris Grayling: The Government believe new energy 2010 Budget. technologies will make a major contribution to the Both organisations have also submitted responses to UK’s energy future. To help enable this, health and the Work and Pensions Select Committee and the Social safety issues must be appropriately addressed. Security Advisory Committee which highlighted this area. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) has recently completed a programme of work reviewing the health Craig Whittaker: To ask the Secretary of State for and safety hazards associated with key emerging energy Work and Pensions whether his Department has (a) technologies, including offshore wind power. This work commissioned and (b) evaluated research on the concluded that the existing legislative framework, established preferences of private sector housing tenants in respect under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, is of payment of housing benefit. [54651] sufficient to manage the hazards associated with emerging energy technologies and did not identify a current need Steve Webb: The evaluation of the local housing to extend the permissioning regime adopted in the allowance pathfinders commissioned and undertaken offshore oil and gas sector to offshore wind development. by my Department between 2004 and 2006 examined HSE is supplementing this approach by working with the preference of private sector housing tenants in industry to encourage the spread of relevant good respect of payment of housing benefit. practice developed by existing offshore industries into Copies of the pathfinder evaluation reports covering new energy sectors. The Government will continue to the views and experiences of tenants, landlords, pathfinder monitor the application of health and safety legislation local authorities and other stakeholders of the local to all areas of emerging energy to ensure that hazards housing allowance pathfinder scheme, can be found on are managed and controlled effectively. the DWP’s website at: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/local%2Dauthority%2Dstaff/ Pensions: Fraud housing%2Dbenefit/claims%2Dprocessing/ local%2Dhousing%2Dallowance/evaluation/pathfinders/ Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The Department has commissioned a consortium of and Pensions what the (a) fraud and (b) error rate was academics and research organisations led by Ian Cole, in the administration of the basic state pension in each professor of housing studies at Sheffield Hallam University of the last five years; how many basic state pension for the independent review of the impact of the Housing claimants were asked to make repayments in each such Benefit measures introduced last month. year; what the total amount of overpaid state pensions 1337W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1338W repaid was in each such year; and what the average Personal Independence Payment amount of basic state pension overpaid to claimants was in each such year. [53389] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether he has had discussions with representatives of organisations representing people with Steve Webb: A measurement exercise to estimate the fibromyalgia on proposals for face-to-face assessments level of official error in the basic state pension is carried for the personal independence payments scheme. [52764] out each year. However, measurement of customer error and fraud is only carried out occasionally. The last time customer error and fraud were measured was in 2005-06. Maria Miller: Throughout the development of the Therefore, each time the Department issues updated new personal independence payment we have had extensive fraud and error data, the 2005-06 rates for customer discussions and consultation with representatives of error and fraud in the basic state pension are used, organisations representing disabled people and their multiplied by current expenditure to give a cash figure. families, including support groups for individuals with fibromyalgia. The rate of official error in the administration of the It is, however, important to the Government’s approach basic state pension in each of the last five years is that the personal independence payment assessment provided in the following table: looks at disabled people as individuals and does not just Official error rate label them by their health condition or impairment. Percentage That’s why it is being designed to consider an individual’s Overpayments Underpayments personal circumstances and the support they need, rather than basing eligibility on a specific medical condition. 2009-10 0.0 0.1 The new assessment better reflects our understanding 2008-09 0.0 0.2 of disability in the 21st century and will take account of 2007-08 0.0 0.2 physical, sensory, mental, intellectual and cognitive 2006-07 0.1 0.1 impairments. This will ensure that support is targeted 2005-06 0.0 0.1 on those disabled people whose impairments have the Note: greatest impact on their ability to live independent lives. Data are not yet available for 2010-11 Source: We will continue to work with disabled people and their National Statistics reports, ‘Fraud and Error in the Benefit System’ organisations as the detail of the assessment criteria and its operation is developed and tested. We had many The 2005-06 customer error and fraud rates are provided helpful responses to our public consultation from individuals in the following table: with fibromyalgia and fibromyalgia support groups in Tonbridge, Eastbourne and Surrey and Sussex, and 2005-06 hope to continue to work with a broad range of groups Overpayments Underpayments going forwards. Customer error 0.1 0.0 Fraud 0.0 0.0 Remploy: Incentives Source: National Statistics report, ‘Fraud and Error in State Pension’, 2006 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what the amounts were of the five Details of the number of new state pension overpayments largest bonuses paid to Remploy employees in each recorded in each of the last five years, the total amount year since 2005; [41486] repaid in each year and the average overpayment in each of those years are shown in the following table. (2) how much was awarded in bonuses to Remploy employees in each year since 2005. [41487] Amounts Average Volume of new repaid in year overpayment Maria Miller: The bonus scheme for the 2009-10 overpayments (£ million) (£) performance year and the previous five years was agreed 2010-11 233,000 32.1 198 between Remploy and the previous Administration. 2009-10 368,000 33.6 169 This Government believe all Departments, including 2008-09 456,000 36.8 120 non-departmental public bodies, need to show restraint 2007-08 466,000 36.3 153 in the current economic climate and that bonus payments 2006-07 440,000 30.4 134 need to better reflect the financial situation, the Government Notes: and the NDPB concerned. The Department, therefore, 1. The volume of new overpayments raised in any particular year requested that Remploy apply the Government’s bonus could include multiple overpayments incurred by the same customer cap. A recent employment tribunal found that the previous 2. The volume of new overpayments excludes those classified as not administration’s remuneration settlement in respect of cost-effective to recover (generally those with a value of £65 or less). commission payments had to be paid for contractual 3. The average overpayment is calculated by dividing the total value of new debt raised in any one year by the number of new overpayments reasons. raised in that year. I have instructed Remploy to review their bonus Source: scheme and ensure pay restraint is applied in future These figures are from Shared Services’ Debt Manager via Business Objects computer system and are subject to rounding. The figures are years. management information collected for the purpose of routine The five largest bonuses paid to Remploy employees administration, and therefore have not been subjected to the rigorous for performance in each year since 2005 is shown in the quality assurance that is applied to DWP official statistics. following table. 1339W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1340W

On the cap’s introduction in 2013, we estimate it will £ be set at £500 per week for couple and single parent 12345households and £350 per week for single adult households 2005-06 13,283 15,123 15,598 17,604 18,765 without children. This will apply to all new universal 2006-07 19,250 19,600 21,302 25,100 25,522 credit claims. 2007-08 21,994 23,288 24,892 31,375 39,067 Exemptions from the application of the benefit cap 2008-09 12,000 12,432 12,500 15,000 24,892 will be set out in regulations following the passage of 2009-10 20,300 26,100 29,500 30,800 35,700 the Welfare Reform Bill. We are currently looking at how universal credit Bonuses awarded to Remploy employees in each year could transitionally protect particularly hard cases. since 2005 are presented in the following table: State Retirement Pensions £ 2005-06 940,000 Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and 2006-07 1,724,000 Pensions for what reasons his planned changes to the 2007-08 1,788,000 pension age begin in 2016 for women and 2018 for 2008-09 682,000 men. [55155] 2009-10 1,705,000 Steve Webb: By April 2016, women’s state pension age will have risen to 63 under the timetable legislated in Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 1995. The UK, like all other EU member states, is under and Pensions what bonus payments were made to staff an obligation to remove gender inequalities currently of Remploy in 2010. [37593] present in state pension ages. Directive 79/7 prohibits gender discrimination in social Maria Miller: The bonus scheme for the 2009-10 security, including state pensions. The directive allows performance year and the previous five years was agreed the setting of state pension age to be a limited exception between Remploy and the previous Administration. but this should be done in accordance with the principle This Government believe all Departments, including that member states may only temporarily allow women non-departmental public bodies, need to show restraint to retire earlier than men, in order to allow member in the current economic climate and that bonus payments states to change gradually their pension systems so that need to better reflect the financial situation, the Government equalisation is achieved. and the NDPB concerned. The Department, therefore, It has therefore been decided to equalise women’s requested that Remploy apply the Government’s bonus state pension age with men’s state pension age before cap. A recent employment tribunal found that the previous the increase to 66 can take place. This is why our administration’s remuneration settlement in respect of proposed changes begin earlier for women than men. commission payments had to be paid for contractual reasons. State Retirement Pensions: Females All public sector bodies are reminded of the need for financial restraint and we have made clear that Remploy Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and executives and managers should reflect this consideration Pensions what estimate his Department has made of in their pay and bonuses. I have instructed Remploy to the number of women he expects to work for longer ensure pay restraint is applied from here on. before reaching pension age in each year from the implementation of those changes. [55270] £

November 2010 Capped payments 1,390,000 Steve Webb: I refer the hon. Member to the estimates January 2011 Balance of payments 315,000 presented in the equality impact assessment which Total 1,705,000 accompanies the Pensions Bill 2011 (page 40 of Annex A). Note: Figures have been rounded to the nearest thousand. Winter Fuel Payments Source: Remploy. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the birthday date for qualification Social Security Benefits for winter fuel allowance will be for (a) men and (b) women in each of the next 15 years. [55151] Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Steve Webb: The age at which winter fuel payments Pensions whether he intends that the proposed £26,000 can be received is increasing in line with the women’s benefit cap will be applied in combination with the 13 state pension age. The qualifying birth dates for each of week rule applied to housing benefit claims. [44387] the next 15 years are in the following table and are the same for men and women. Steve Webb: We are introducing a cap on the total amount of benefit that working-age people can receive Winter fuel payment qualifying dates so households on out of work benefits will no longer Winter Must be born on or before this date to qualify receive more in benefit than the average weekly wage 2011-12 5 January 1951 earned by working families. 2012-13 5 July 1951 1341W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1342W

Winter fuel payment qualifying dates Maria Miller: The winter fuel payment is a universal Winter Must be born on or before this date to qualify benefit and the qualifying age is linked to women’s state 2013-14 5 January 1952 pension age under existing legislation. The equality 2014-15 5 July 1952 impact assessment covering the Social Security (Equalisation 2015-16 5 January 1953 of State Pension Age) Regulations 2009 includes the 2016-17 5 July 1953 impact on winter fuel payments. A copy of the equality 2017-18 5 January 1954 impact assessment was published on 18 June 2009 and 2018-19 5 July 1954 can be found at the following link: 2019-20 5 January 1955 http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/equalisation-state-pension- 2020-21 26 September 1955 age.pdf 2021-22 25 September 1956 2022-23 24 September 1957 2023-24 22 September 1958 DEFENCE 2024-25 21 September 1959 2025-26 27 September 1960 Armed Forces: Recruitment Note: The table is based on state pension age under the current legislated timetable Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for and does not include the proposed changes in the Pensions Bill 2011. Defence how many personnel have been recruited to each of the armed forces in each month since the date of the strategic defence and security review; and how Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work many personnel he expects to be recruited to each of and Pensions whether he conducted an equality impact the armed forces in each of the next 12 months. [54771] assessment in respect of his decision to increase the qualification age for winter fuel allowance in line with Mr Robathan: The information requested is presented the state pension age. [55152] in the following table.

October 2010 November 2010 December 2010 January 2011 February 2011 March 2011 April 2011

Naval service 304 328 57 199 59 15 3 Army 1,335 989 3 1,375 635 861 759 RAF 148 78 0 160 48 98 104

The naval services have conducted a forecast of UK and (b) the US have received contracts for over recruitment based on the numbers recruited in previous £50,000 for work at Menwith Hill in each year since years and this is presented below as an annual figure 2008-09. [55029] broken down by officers and other ranks. In the Army and RAF such forecasts are not undertaken however both services have yearly recruitment targets and these Nick Harvey: Companies who have received contracts are presented as follows. for works in excess of £50,000 at RAF Menwith Hill in each year since 2008-09 are shown in the following Number tables. UK Contractors RN officers 300 Contractor Year RN other ranks/ratings 1,640 Army officers 900 Carillion PLC 2008 Army other ranks 10,600 2009 RAF officers 230 2010 RAF other ranks 1,640 2011 Armed Forces: Training Alfred McAlpine Building Services 2008 Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects to make a decision on the Balfour Beatty Engineering Services Limited 2010 future of the Defence Technical College; and if he will 2011 make a statement. [55341] Haden Young Limited 2008 Nick Harvey: The Defence Technical Training Change 2009 Programme is currently considering options for the future location or locations of Defence Technical Training. 2010 This process is subject to full internal scrutiny and as 2011 such a final decision is anticipated before the end of this year. Mott McDonald 2008 RAF Menwith Hill 2009 2010 Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 Defence which companies with headquarters in (a) the 1343W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1344W

UK Contractors US Contractors Contractor Year Contractor Year

Scott Wilson 2008 2011 2009

2010 Lockheed Martin 2008 2011 2009 2010 URS 2010 2011 2011

ECC 2010 Walter Thompson 2008 2011

Shaylor Construction 2008 Details of all new central Government contracts are now available online at:

Britcon Limited 2008 www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk 2009 Reserve Forces

SGW Construction 2009 Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what plans he has to engage with interested parties Paragon 2008 in his review of the reserve forces; [54249] (2) what considerations he gave to synchronising his Wrekin Construction 2008 Department’s review of the reserve forces with the 2009 Strategic Defence and Security Review; [54250] (3) what progress his Department has made on its T Clarke (Electrical) 2008 review of the reserve forces; and on what date the 2009 report of the review is to be published. [54251] 2010 Mr Robathan: As part of the Strategic Defence and 2011 Security Review (SDSR) announcement on 19 October 2010, the Prime Minister commissioned a six month Nomenca 2011 study into the future role and structure of the Reserves to ensure the most efficient use of Reservists to meet the Ove Arup 2008 UK’s operational requirements for future conflict. The 2009 need for the review flows directly from and forms part of the SDSR.

Northern Electric Distribution Limited 2010 The Study is governed by a Reserves Steering Group, 2011 led by the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff, supported by the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier). It incorporates representation from the single Service Chiefs, WYG 2009 the key Ministry of Defence principals, Defence’s senior 2010 Reservist officer (Major General Greg Smith), the Reserve 2011 Forces’ and Cadets’ Association and the National Employers’ Advisory Board. IUS 2009 Throughout, the progress, key decisions and their likely impacts will be communicated widely to the defence AECOM 2010 community and interested stakeholders, via Defence 2011 Internal Briefs and publication of information on the Defence website: www.mod.uk/reserves Landscape Solutions 2008 2009 A copy of the terms of reference for the Future Reserves 2020 study, which includes the timetable for 2010 the study, was placed in the Library of the House in 2011 December 2010. I can confirm that the Future Reserves 2020 Study is to conclude in the summer. DSM Demolition Limited 2009 2010 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS US Contractors Company Liquidations Contractor Year

Northrup Grumman 2008 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses 2010 entered into liquidation in England in each of the last five years. [55222] 1345W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1346W

Mr Davey: Official statistics covering corporate Furthermore the website referred to allows any person insolvencies for England alone are not currently available. either to download reports published on a quarterly/annual Figures are, however, available for England and Wales basis within the ‘Published Reports’ area of the website in total, as shown in Table 1: (in read only format), or alternatively to register on the Table 1: Total liquidations in England and Wales in the last five years website and then produce their own bespoke reports. Total liquidations For these reasons the Government do not propose to place this information in the Library in the format 2006 13,137 requested, as more extensive information is already 2007 12,507 available to Members of Parliament through the online 2008 15,535 database. 2009 19,077 2010 16,045 Green Investment Bank

Departmental Internet Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 29 March 2011, Official Report, column 304W, on Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Green Investment Bank, if he will bring forward Business, Innovation and Skills what expenditure his the date from which the borrowing powers of the Department incurred on its website in the latest period Green Investment Bank may commence. [54273] for which figures are available; and how many people visited the website in that period. [55232] Mr Prisk: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made clear in his Budget statement of 23 Mr Davey: Figures for website costs and usage for the March that the Government will enable the Green BIS website (www.bis.gov.uk) were recently submitted Investment Bank to borrow from 2015-16 and once the to the Central Office of Information. They cover the target for debt to be falling as percentage of gross 2010-11 financial year. domestic product has been met. We will say more on the Non-staff costs were £372,506. Staff costs for 9.1 bank’s operations later this month. full-time equivalents were £263,203, making the total cost £635,709. During this period the content of 12 BIS Higher Education: Performance Indicators partner organisation websites was converged onto the BIS web publishing platform, contributing to the costs Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, reported here. Innovation and Skills what the (a) drop-out and (b) The site received 3,681,576 unique visitors, who made course transfer rate at each university in England was 6,030,197 visits, resulting in 21,795,586 page views. for students starting degrees in (i) 2005, (ii) 2006, (iii) 2007, (iv) 2008, (v) 2009 and (vi) 2010. [54770] Exports: Defence Equipment Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Performance Indicators in Higher Education Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for provide information on drop-out and course transfer Business, Innovation and Skills if he will place in the rates at institution level for UK-domiciled students. Library the country by country arms export data for (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010 in the same format as HESA produces two indicators which can be used as that used for the period from 2000 to 2007. [54718] drop-out rates. Non-continuation considers students who start in a given academic year and identifies whether Mr Prisk: The Department for Business Innovation they are still in higher education one year later, for and Skills is responsible for releasing these data on a full-time students, or two years later, for part-time quarterly and annual basis. students. Non-completion refers to projected outcomes over a longer period based on the current pattern of The data are no longer placed in the Library as they students’ behaviour. Information on non-continuation, are now readily available via the Strategic Export Controls: non-completion and course transfer at institution level Reports and Statistics website at: is available from HESA at this link to their website: https://www.exportcontroldb.berr.gov.uk/eng/fox/sdb/ http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task SDBHOME =view&id=2064<emid=141 Reports from 2008 onwards are still produced in the The latest available information is for the 2008/09 same style, compared to 2007, but in line with the academic year. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year Government’s commitment to be more transparent and will become available from HESA in April 2012. More accountable we now provide much more information information on the HESA Performance Indicators in for each country. Improvements include: Higher Education is available at: the goods rating being provided in addition to a summary http://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php/content/view/2072/141/ description of the item, thus giving more information on the type of goods for which a licence has been issued for export to a specified country; Higher Education: Private Sector the values are now broken down to the nearest £ per country and per rating, whereas previous reports gave a total figure for Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for all licences issued for that country rounded to the nearest £0.5 Business, Innovation and Skills which providers of million; for-profit higher education services he has met in each median processing times are now provided per country, whereas of the last six months; and if he will make a statement. this was not available previously. [54976] 1347W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1348W

Mr Willetts [holding answer 10 May 2011]: the Secretary London College of Traditional Acupuncture and of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right Oriental Medicine hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), and I meet regularly with a wide range of providers of Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, higher education in the UK and internationally. The Innovation and Skills how many representations he has Department does not hold comprehensive information received on the London College of Traditional Acupuncture on whether higher education providers Ministers have and Oriental Medicine since its collapse; and if he will met are classed as for-profit or not-for-profit institutions. make a statement. [54865] A quarterly-updated list of all this Department ministerial meetings with external organisations is available at: Mr Willetts [holding answer 9 May 2011]: http://data.gov.uk/dataset/disclosure-ministerial-external- Correspondence to the Department is held centrally meetings-department-for-business and indexed by title. These records show that we have had nine representations specifically on this subject. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Other correspondence will have mentioned it but, as it Business, Innovation and Skills what the drop-out rates is not indexed under this particular title, full details were at those for-profit higher education institutions could be provided only at disproportionate cost. where students received loans via the Student Loans Company but which did not receive other public Medicine: Education funding council grants; and if he will make a statement. [54977] Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Willetts [holding answer 10 May 2011]: According Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of to Student Loans Company data, in the 2009/10 academic the effects of the implementation of the Higher Education year, 4,160 higher education students at private higher (Higher Amount) (England) Regulations 2010 on the education institutions were in receipt of student finance. number of graduate entry medical students; and if he The Department does not hold comprehensive information will make a statement. [55272] on whether those private higher education providers are classed as for-profit or not-for-profit institutions, as this Mr Willetts: The Department has made no specific does not form part of the designation process. The assessment of the effects of the Higher Education (Higher available data does not allow us to discern whether or Amount) (England) Regulations 2010 at subject level. not any of these students were in receipt of other public We are working with the Department of Health to funding council grants. consider the impact on medical students. The Departments have a shared responsibility for providing student support Although the Higher Education Statistics Agency for graduate entry medical students. recently collected some data on private providers of higher education, the data does not contain the necessary Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for detail to enable the calculation of drop-out rates at Business, Innovation and Skills whether graduate entry these institutions. medical students will be required to cover the cost of their tuition fees for the first year of study in academic Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, year 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. [55273] Innovation and Skills whether he plans to amend the requirement to renew the grant of degree-awarding Mr Willetts: Tuition fee support is currently not powers to private providers of higher education; and if available for year one of a graduate entry medical he will make a statement. [54861] course and this will remain the case in 2012/13. Graduate entry medical students can apply for a maintenance Mr Willetts [holding answer 9 May 2011]: The future loan, supplementary grants and disabled students regulatory regime, including the degree awarding powers allowances for their first year from the Department for process for all providers of higher education, will be Business, Innovation and Skills, and a reduced level considered in the forthcoming White Paper. This will maintenance loan for the duration of their course, but set out the Government’s proposals to encourage a receive no other support. From year two of the course more diverse and competitive higher education sector responsibility for providing support is shared with the alongside an appropriate regulatory regime, which ensures Department of Health which currently provides support high standards and protects students. for tuition fees, a means tested NHS bursary and Higher Education: Student Numbers supplementary grants and allowances.

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, North Sea Oil Innovation and Skills what his policy is on the core and margin model in relation to student numbers in higher Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for education; and if he will make a statement. [54944] Business, Innovation and Skills on what dates he met ministerial colleagues in HM Treasury to discuss the Mr Willetts [holding answer 10 May 2011]: Key to implications for investment in North Sea oil and gas driving competition and improving quality and student fields of proposed changes to taxation. [51601] choice is freeing up the allocation of existing student numbers. Allocating places on a ‘core and margin’ basis Mr Prisk: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of is one of the options being considered and will be State meets Treasury Ministers frequently and they discussed in the forthcoming higher education White discuss a wide range of government policy areas of Paper. mutual interest. 1349W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1350W

Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Mail Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Change on the implications for investment in North Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for Sea oil and gas fields of changes to taxation. [51602] the future of the phantom share element of Royal Mail’s Colleague Shares scheme; and if he will make a Mr Prisk: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of statement. [55353] State meets the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change frequently and they discuss a wide range of Mr Davey: Colleague Share is an incentive scheme set government policy areas of mutual interest. up in 2007 by Royal Mail and as such is an operational Oil matter for the company. The scheme, which is expected to have paid out Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for £2,200 to most members by the time various operational Business, Innovation and Skills what the policy of UK targets are met, will close in March 2012. After this Trade and Investment is on support for UK-based date, it is for Royal Mail to decide whether to introduce companies that develop and export tar sands oil further employee incentive schemes and the form of extraction technologies. [54481] those schemes. Separately, as part of the provisions in the Postal Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) treats Services Bill, the Government will make available shares UK-based companies with specialist technology relevant to employees upon the first sale of Royal Mail shares. to oil sands in the same way as any other company in the oil and gas supply chain. The full range of UKTI Technology Strategy Board: Finance services are available to all UK-based companies engaged in oil and gas extraction regardless of the nature of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for project. Business, Innovation and Skills what the core budget Professional Development Loans for the Technology Strategy Board was for each of the last three years; what that budget will be for each of the Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for next three years; and if he will make a statement. Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has [54945] had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the withdrawal of professional development loans by retail Mr Willetts [holding answer 10 May 2011]: The banks; and if he will make a statement. [55276] Technology Strategy Board’s core budget was £193 million in 2008/09, £253 million in 2009/10, and £263 million in Mr Willetts: The supply of professional development 2010/11, as announced in the 2007 spending review. loans by retail branks is a matter for those banks. The Technology Strategy Board’s core budget for Neither the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation 2011/12 is £317 million, which includes funding for and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Technology and Innovation Centres and to deliver a Twickenham (Vince Cable), nor I have therefore discussed national Grant for Research and Development (R&D) the matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my scheme. I cannot be specific on future year allocations, right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne). but it will be of the order £300 million per annum resulting in support worth over £1 billion in business led Retail banks do deliver the professional and career R&D over the spending review period. development loans (PCDLs) scheme on behalf on the Department. There are no plans to withdraw this scheme. Trade: Developing Countries Regional Growth Fund Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Business, Innovation and Skills what recent progress he for Business, Innovation and Skills what criteria will be has made on the Doha round; and if he will make a used to assess the (a) viability and (b) efficacy of statement. [55133] Round 2 bids for the Regional Growth Fund in (i) the East of England and (ii) England; and if he will make a Mr Davey: Concluding the Doha round in 2011 is the statement. [55342] UK’s top overarching trade priority. Negotiations are currently at an impasse over industrial tariff cuts. We Mr Prisk: The criteria for the second round for are pushing the key players to show the leadership and assessing projects are the same as the first round and flexibility needed to conclude the round this year. this applies to bids from all over England. To qualify for support from the Regional Growth Fund, projects should World Intellectual Property Organisation: Visual demonstrate that they: Impairment create additional sustainable private sector growth; rebalance the economy in those areas currently dependent on Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the public sector; Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make it his would not otherwise go ahead without support from the policy to support the adoption of the legally binding Regional Growth Fund; treaty for the visually impaired and other print- offer value for money; and disabled persons at the World Intellectual Property be state aid compliant. Organisation; and if he will make a statement. [54982] 1351W Written Answers12 MAY 2011 Written Answers 1352W

Mr Davey: Of the four proposals currently in front of all WIPO members. The European Union leads negotiations the World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO), at WIPO on behalf of its member states, including the two are for legally-binding treaties, and two are for UK, and supports a non-binding approach. The UK is non-binding recommendations to WIPO member states. receptive to any reasonable way forward that will make No single document has so far gained consensus from a real difference to the lives of visually impaired people.

7MC Ministerial Corrections12 MAY 2011 Ministerial Corrections 8MC Ministerial Correction The correct answer should have been:

Thursday 12 May 2011 Damian Green: The following table summarises the spend of the Home Office and its agencies (Identity and Passport Service (IPS), Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) and UK Border Agency) on logo design and employment HOME DEPARTMENT of public relations and graphic design agencies, broken Logos down by project. It is not possible to separate out design costs from Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the design agency costs, and therefore costs provided above Home Department how much (a) her Department and cover parts (a) and (b). (b) its agencies have spent on the (i) design and production of new logos and (ii) employment of The Home Office has spent nothing on design or external (A) public relations and (B) graphic design production of new logos or on the employment of agencies for each project of logo design or redesign in external public relations agencies for any project of logo design or redesign since 2008-09. each year since 2000. [53480] [Official Report, 3 May 2011, Vol. 527, c. 652-54W.] The UK Border Agency and IPS have spent nothing Letter of correction from Mr Damien Green: on design or production of new logos or on the employment of external public relations agencies for any project of An error has been identified in the written answer logo design or redesign since 2007-08. given to the hon. Member for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley) on 3 May 2011. The answer should not CRB have spent nothing on design or production of have included the 2005-06 spend attributed to the new logos or on the employment of external public Information Commissioner, as it was not a Home Office relations agencies for any project of logo design or agency. redesign since 2002-03.

Owner Project Description Cost (£)

2000-01 HO New Home Office corporate ID Design, research, project management 155,000 and style guidelines 2001-02 CRB Criminal Records Bureau Design and production of new logos 120,000 and external Public Relations HO Fire Service Branding Design 2,914 HO Positive Futures Branding Design 4,000 HO Drugs Prevention Advisory Service Rebrand Design 10.000 Total 2001-02 291,914

2002-03 CRB Criminal Records Bureau Design and production of new logos 200,000 and external Public Relations 2003-04 HO Active Communities Unit Logo development and corporate ID 45,200 HO Immigration and Nationality Directorate IRIS Design and production 35,000 Recognition Branding Total 2003-04 80,200

2004-05 HO Home Office Modification and update of brand 5,500 guidelines HO National Offender Management Service Identity creation, production of 46,000 artwork and branding guidelines HO Her Majesty’s Prison Service Modification of logo and production 10,500 of brand guidelines HO National Probation Service Modification of logo and production 10,230 of brand guidelines HO Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority Logo update and literature 4,999 production update HO Tackling Drugs, Changing Lives programme Design and production of new logo 21,890 HO Senior Careers Advisory Service Design and production of new 4,260 materials HO Immigration and Nationality Directorate Research and registration of IRIS 4,395 logo HO CENTREX Police Training Branding Design and production 15,280 Total 2004-05 123,054

2005-06 HO Senior Careers Advisory Service Final production costs relating to 734 04-05 work 9MC Ministerial Corrections12 MAY 2011 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

Owner Project Description Cost (£)

HO Drugs Intervention Programme Production to refresh programme 10,280 materials in line with core Tackling Drugs, Changing Lives brand HO Respect Design, research, project management 56,733 and style guidelines HO CENTREX Police Training Branding Final production 3,760 HO Criminal Justice IT Programme Design and production of materials to 10,080 support programme Total 2005-06 82,187

2006-07 IPS Identify and Passport Service Brand clinics and brand photography 37,825 2007-08 IPS Identify and Passport Service Brand workshops and brand 17,304 photography BIA Immigration and Nationality Directorate Identity creation, production of 79,920 rebrand as Border and Immigration Agency artwork and branding guidelines UKBA Border and Immigration Agency rebrand as UK Logo and template design and brand 30,200 Border Agency guidelines HO Home Office brand refresh Design 2,540 Total 2007-08 129,964

2008-09 HO Knives campaign Design and publication of stakeholder 50,000 comms materials ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 12 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 1351 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Biodiversity in Churchyards...... 1352 continued Churchyard Trees ...... 1351 British Food Exports...... 1336 Gift Aid ...... 1353 British Food Industry...... 1335 Lead Theft ...... 1353 Carbon Reporting...... 1341 Women Priests and Bishops ...... 1354 Departmental Waste Review ...... 1333 Weddings ...... 1349 Fish Discards ...... 1336 Fishermen...... 1338 ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 1350 Forests and Woodlands...... 1340 Voter Registration...... 1350 Red Diesel...... 1343 Voting Preferences...... 1349 Red Tape Challenge ...... 1343 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Topical Questions ...... 1345 AFFAIRS...... 1333 Zoo Inspectors...... 1344 Access to Ministers ...... 1339 PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 1354 Allotments ...... 1334 National Audit Office...... 1354 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 12 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 43WS JUSTICE...... 45WS Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 43WS Inquests (Service Personnel Overseas)...... 45WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 43WS Government Olympic Executive...... 43WS PETITIONS

Thursday 12 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL JUSTICE...... 24P AFFAIRS...... 23P Sentencing Guidelines (Manslaughter) ...... 24P Green Belt Land (Mangotsfield, South Gloucestershire)...... 23P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 12 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 1292W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Serious Fraud Office ...... 1292W Trade: Developing Countries ...... 1350W World Intellectual Property Organisation: Visual BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 1344W Impairment...... 1350W Company Liquidations ...... 1344W CABINET OFFICE...... 1297W Departmental Internet ...... 1345W Departmental Procurement...... 1297W Exports: Defence Equipment ...... 1345W Newspaper Licensing Agency: Fees...... 1297W Green Investment Bank ...... 1346W Sheffield...... 1298W Higher Education: Performance Indicators...... 1346W Higher Education: Private Sector...... 1346W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1321W Higher Education: Student Numbers...... 1347W Citizenship Survey ...... 1321W London College of Traditional Acupuncture and First Time Buyers ...... 1321W Oriental Medicine ...... 1348W Historic Buildings: Planning Permission ...... 1321W Medicine: Education...... 1348W Local Government Finance ...... 1322W North Sea Oil...... 1348W Waste Disposal ...... 1323W Oil...... 1349W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1323W Professional Development Loans...... 1349W Regional Growth Fund ...... 1349W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 1291W Royal Mail ...... 1350W Archaeology...... 1291W Technology Strategy Board: Finance ...... 1350W Olympic Delivery Authority...... 1291W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 1342W HEALTH—continued Armed Forces: Recruitment...... 1342W St Helens and Knowsley Health Authority ...... 1307W Armed Forces: Training ...... 1341W Trauma: Health Services ...... 1308W RAF Menwith Hill ...... 1341W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1315W Reserve Forces ...... 1344W Crime: Drugs ...... 1315W EDUCATION...... 1308W Driving Offences ...... 1315W Children in Care: Standards...... 1308W Police: Prison Accommodation ...... 1315W Children: Protection...... 1308W Prevent Review...... 1317W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 1309W Visas: Kunai Doshi ...... 1317W Departmental Pensions ...... 1309W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1295W Discretionary Learner Support Fund...... 1309W Libya: Overseas Aid...... 1295W Education: Finance...... 1310W Palestinians: Overseas Aid ...... 1295W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 1310W Free School Meals...... 1312W JUSTICE...... 1293W Further Education: Inspections...... 1313W Bill of Rights ...... 1293W Music: Education...... 1313W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 1294W Pupils: Work Experience ...... 1313W Members: Correspondence ...... 1294W Schools: Sports ...... 1313W Prison Service: Resignations ...... 1294W Special Educational Needs: Finance ...... 1314W Prisons: Manpower ...... 1294W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 1315W Prisons: Private Sector ...... 1295W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1319W TRANSPORT ...... 1298W Electricity...... 1319W Biofuels: Exports ...... 1298W Fossil Fuels ...... 1320W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 1299W Fuel Poverty: Sunderland...... 1320W Driving Tests...... 1299W Meters...... 1320W M5: Worcestershire ...... 1299W Oil: Refineries ...... 1320W Motor Vehicles: Registration...... 1300W Warm Front Scheme ...... 1321W Motor Vehicles: Testing ...... 1301W Rescue Services: Milford Haven ...... 1302W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Roads: Accidents ...... 1302W AFFAIRS...... 1324W Roads: Lighting ...... 1301W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 1325W Roads: Safety ...... 1302W Departmental Manpower...... 1325W TREASURY ...... 1317W Elephant Poaching: Africa ...... 1324W Apprentices...... 1317W EU-Morocco Fisheries Partnership Agreement ..... 1325W Child Tax Credit: Overseas Residence...... 1317W Floods: Insurance ...... 1326W Economic Situation...... 1318W Private Sewers ...... 1324W Financial Services Compensation Scheme...... 1318W River Ecology ...... 1324W Financial Stability Board: Investments...... 1318W Uplands Review ...... 1324W Fuels: Prices...... 1318W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1327W Members: Correspondence ...... 1319W Democratic Republic of Congo: Arms Control ..... 1327W Pensions: Private Sector ...... 1319W Democratic Republic of Congo: Females...... 1327W Pensions: Public Sector ...... 1319W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 1328W WALES...... 1291W Indonesia: Religious Freedom...... 1328W Enterprise Zones...... 1291W Iran...... 1329W Small Businesses ...... 1292W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 1329W Members: Correspondence ...... 1329W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1330W UK Membership of EU...... 1329W Crisis Loans: Housing Benefit...... 1330W United Arab Emirates: AssetCo...... 1330W Disability Living Allowance: Autism...... 1331W Health Hazards: Regulation...... 1331W HEALTH...... 1303W Housing Benefit ...... 1332W Brain: Injuries ...... 1303W Incapacity Benefit: Mental Health ...... 1336W Cancer ...... 1303W National Identity Fraud Unit...... 1336W Confectionery: Sugar ...... 1304W Offshore Industry: Safety...... 1336W London Ambulance Service: Manpower...... 1304W Pensions: Fraud ...... 1336W London Ambulance Service: Redundancy ...... 1305W Personal Independence Payment...... 1338W Medical Treatments: VAT ...... 1305W Remploy: Incentives...... 1338W NHS: Drugs...... 1305W Social Security Benefits...... 1339W NHS: Procurement ...... 1305W State Retirement Pensions...... 1340W Patient Records: Data Loss...... 1307W State Retirement Pensions: Females ...... 1340W Radiotherapy ...... 1307W Winter Fuel Payments...... 1340W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 12 May 2011

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PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 527 Thursday No. 156 12 May 2011

CONTENTS

Thursday 12 May 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1333] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Church Commissioners Speaker’s Electoral Commission Committee Public Accounts Commission

Business of the House [Col. 1357] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Vocational Education [Col. 1371] Statement—(Michael Gove)

Backbench Business [27th allotted day] Review of Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 [Col. 1386] Motion—(Adam Afriyie)—agreed to Fisheries [Col. 1405] Motion—(Zac Goldsmith)—agreed to

Business Support (Lancaster and Fleetwood) [Col. 1464] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Education Performance [Col. 493WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 43WS]

Petitions [Col. 23P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1291W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 7MC]