Valuation ofLand (Amendment) Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 403

Wednesday, 19 April 1989

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. A. J. Hunt) took the chair at 2.3 p.m. and read the prayer.

VALUATION OF LAND (AMENDMENT) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-Does the Minister for Local Government support local government being made subject to freedom of information legislation? The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-As Mr Birrell will appreciate, I am fairly new in this portfolio, and the question he asks is one to which I have not directed my attention. However, I shall give the matter some consideration and communicate WIth him in due course.

VICTORIAN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I refer the Minister Assisting the Treasurer in Budget Expenditure to the Ryan report on the ill-fated Victorian Economic Development Corporation and to its specific finding that in some instances loans had been granted beyond 100 per cent of the security held. I also refer him to the Victorian Economic Development Corporation Act, which required the specific approval of the Minister, after consultation with the Treasurer, before accommodation could be granted beyond 90 per cent of the security held in any instance. I ask the Minister: was the Treasurer's formal approval gained in each instance that 90 per cent of the security was exceeded; and which companies were involved? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister Assisting the Treasurer in Budget Expenditure)­ The matters raised by Mr Hallam relate to the Victorian Economic Development Corporation, which is the responsibility of the Treasurer. I did not hear all his introductory remarks, but I think he said they related to matters that were in the Fergus Ryan report and/or the Auditor-General's report. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-The Fergus Ryan report. The Hon. D. R. WHITE-I am happy to take the matters raised on notice and to discuss them with the Treasurer. I shall provide the honourable member with an answer in due course.

HIGHER EDUCATION INSTITUTION FOR WESTERN SUBURBS The Hon. UCIA KOKOCINSKI (Melbourne West Province)-The Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education will be aware that there has been a great deal of agitation in the western suburbs about the need to increase the number of 404 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Questions without Notice places for tertiary education. Will the Minister inform the House of progress made in strengthening and increasing the provision of higher education in Melbourne's western suburbs? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education)-I thank Ms Kokocinski for her question. Today the Federal Minister for Employment, Education and Training, John Dawkins, and I released the report of the Commonwealth-State working party on the matter raised by Ms Kokocinski. The report confirms the need for a new institution in the west to increase higher education participation and to build on the strengths of existing institutions. I understand the Commonwealth government is prepared to inject increased capital and recurrent funds to raise the participation rate in the western suburbs and it is hoped the State average will be reached by 1994. Our participation rate in hi~er education is already the highest of any State in Australia, partly due to initiatlves taken by the State government. The report proposes three alternative models for the new institution. The first option is a university of technology based on the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, the Footscray Institute of Technology and the Western Institute of Technology. So the first option is for a new university of technology. The second option is a new non-university level institution formed from a merger of the Footscray Institute of Technology and the Western Institute of Technolo$Y, with strong links to a major existing higher education institution such as the Universlty of Melbourne or the RMIT, which would sponsor its development ultimately to full university status. The third option is a major autonomous institution formed by merging the Footscray Institute of Technology and the Western Institute of Technology. My understanding is that the Commonwealth government has a preference for option one involving the RMIT. However, as the Minister responsible for this area I intend to conduct a series of consultations with all institutions referred to and with other interest groups. I shall be asking the Higher Education Consultative Committee, which was established last year, to advise me. In particular I welcome the input of members of Parliament representing the western suburbs. I shall then discuss the structural options in further detail with the Federal Minister. We have a proud record in this State-and I say that in a bipartisan sense. Victoria leads the nation in all levels of education and I am determined that, in expanding the provision of higher education, the western suburbs-previously neglected-will not be disadvantaged.

ROYAL CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province)-I refer the Minister for Health to the fact that the Royal Children's Hospital may be forced to close vitally needed hospital beds this month if the government does not provide $450 000 to meet the funding shortfall. Will the Minister for Health agree to provide the funds to the hospital to ensure that the beds are not closed? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-The Royal Children's Hospital and the director of the relevant region of Health Department Victoria have for some time been involved in discussions about the budget of the hospital. As I understand it the information the hospital has provided is being looked at, checked and analysed by regional staff. Questions without Notice 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 405

The Hon. R. I. Knowles-But will it get the money? The Hon. C. J. HOGG-In answer to Mr Knowles's interjection, the question is whether there is agreement on the interpretation ofthe informatIon. Health Department Victoria is working hard to ensure that no beds are closed at the hospital. I am waiting for a recommendation from the region, which I shall consider urgently as soon as it comes to hand.

FUSION POWER The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province)-I refer the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources to the recent announcement of a most interesting discovery with relation to fusion power by Dr Fleischman of Southampton University and Or Pons of Utah University. By the use of certain processes involving a palladium rod, a platinum rod and deuterium, or heavy water, it appears that, experimentally at least, cold fusion power has been produced. It is a significant development, and I ask the Minister whether the Victorian government is aware of it and whether it is taking steps to find out more about it because of its significance to power generation in this State. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-The State Electricity Commission will take that into consideration in its demand management study, and it will get advice to that effect. In so far as any technological breakthroughs in respect of nuclear issues are concerned, Mr Evans should be aware of the Nuclear Activities (Prohibition) Act. Until such time as safeguards are provided for the waste material that arises from nuclear activity, the government will not contemplate the use of nuclear power.

STATE-LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCIAL RELATIONS The Hon. G. R. eRA WFORD (Jika Jika Province)-Will the Minister for Local Government inform the House whether the government has made any decisions regarding the recommendations of the working party on State-local government financial relations? The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-A significant report was produced by the working party under the chairmanship of the honourable member for Monbulk in the other place, Mr Pope, the present Minister for Labour. The State government has agreed to the acceptance and implementation of the majority of the recommendations of the working party. Despite some comments made during the passage of the Local Government Bill, it is interesting to reflect on the greatly improving relationship between local government and this State government as local government comes to see that the State government has the greatest respect for it throughout the State. The first recommendation that will be implemented in keeping with that philosophy of the government is the first meeting of the State-Local Government Consultative Council, which will meet on 27 April. The council will be chaired by the Premier; the Treasurer is a member of the council, as I am, together with other senior Ministers and two representatives of the Municipal Association ofVictoria and one representative of the Metropolitan Municipal Association. In the preparation of items for the council meeting, I have been involved with both the Municipal Association of Victoria and the Metropolitan Municipal Association. I 406 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Questions without Notice am particularly impressed by the seriousness with which everyone is approaching the council. It will obviously be a significant watershed in the relationships between this State government and local government throughout the State. I believe it will be extremely productive in the years to come. It is, of course, yet again a first for Australia and very important for this government in continuing to work on its productive relationship with local government.

BRAILLE AND TALKING BOOK LIBRARY The Hon. HADOON STOREY (East Yarra Province )-Is the Minister for the Arts aware that the Braille and Talking Book Library at South Yarra is experiencing funding difficulties and that, without assistance, there is grave danger that it will cease to operate and thus disadvantage its more than 4000 members? Will the Minister investigate and consider increasing the subsidy from the Ministry for the Arts to enable the library to keep providing this valuable service? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-Yes, I am aware of the difficulty Mr Storey brings forward and I have put in train an investigation of the kind he suggests because I do not wish to see such an important body going through financial difficulty and having to curtail or stop its services. I will share the report of the investigation when it is available. I hope the result will make obvious to me how to maintain this important service.

STAMP DUTY REBATE FOR FIRST HOME BUYERS The Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western Province)-Can the Minister for Housing and Construction explain how he arrived at his statement to the House last Wednesday that first home buyers are entitled to a maximum stamp dut}' rebate of $2800, particularly when under the Act the maximum rebate provided is $22oo? The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-That matter was raised with me during the debate and I provided a calculation to that honourable member. I will provide Mr Best with the same calculation, which I hope will satisfy him that that is a correct figure in terms of the way the calculations are made.

CANCER SERVICES FOR EASTERN SUBURBS The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley Province)-Can the Minister for Health inform the House what steps are being taken by the government to improve access to cancer services for residents in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I believe the Box Hill Cancer Service is the one to which Mr Kennedy refers and that began operations on 20 March last. This service involved cooperation between the Peter MacCallum Cancer Institute, the Box Hill Hospital and the Box Hill Gardens Medical Centre. It will provide access to the full range of cancer services for more than 780000 people in the eastern metropolitan area, which has a rapidly growin$ and ageing population. The radiotherapy centre has the capacity to treat 500 addItional cancer patients a year and will ease pressure on the services at the Peter MacCallum institute. Radiotherapy services are provided-- The H~n. R. I. Knowles-Didn't you announce this four months ago? Questions without Notice 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 407

The Hon. C. J. HOGG-I have had responsibility for this area for only a very short time and so far as I am concerned this is a recent irutiative. Radiotherapy services are provided by the Peter MacCallum Cancer Institute at the Box Hill Gardens Medical Centre. In-patient beds and chemotherapy treatment will be provided at Box Hill Hospital. Patients will also have access to the more specialised services of the Peter MacCallum Cancer Institute, if required. Box Hill Hospital has advertised for a professor of oncology to be the director of the cancer service. Applications have closed and an appointment is likely within the next couple of months. A professorial appointment will ensure that cancer patients living in the eastern suburbs have access to high quality services. The hospital has also opened a day surgery unit that will significantly increase the hospital's capabilities to treat more cancer patients. It is estimated that up to 2700 day procedures will be carried out when the unit is fully operational. This initiative came to fruition only four or five weeks ago, so could not have been announced any earlier and could not have come on-stream on 20 March without the underpinning energy and work of my predecessor, now the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources.

HEALTH PROGRAMS FOR WOMEN The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY (Nunawading Province)-Many people, myself included, have been pressing for the cancer service at the Box Hill Hospital. The Minister for Health would be aware that the government has made much of health programs for women. Can the Minister advise why a 008 telephone number has not been made available to Health Sharing Women to provide wider use or access, particularly for rural women? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I thank Mrs Varty for her question and I know that it is an issue in which she has taken a real interest. I do not know why there is no 008 number for Health Sharing Women, which is an important advocacy group for health. I shall endeavour to find out whether it is a budget question and whether a 008 number can be provided next year. I shall provide Mrs Varty with those details and I personally agree with her that it would be a good idea to have a 008 number.

ARDMONA FRUIT PRODUCTS COOPERATIVE The Hon. B. E. DAVIDSON (Chelsea Province)-Can the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources inform the House of the process of product development initiatives at the Ardmona Fruit Products Cooperative of Goulbum Valley and the role he has played in assisting this venture? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technolo~ and Resources)-The Ardmona Fruit Products Cooperative is one of two major fruit processors and canners in the Goulburn Valley. It employs 400 people year round and up to 1300 during the processing season. In recent years, Ardmona has undertaken a program of new product development aimed at broadening the company's product base. One part of this program has been the development of the snack pack p'roject, which has involved the company in capital expenditure of more than $2·3 million. The equipment used by Ardmona for this project is the first of its type in the world and this new development has been aided by my department, which has provided an assistance package totalling some $930 000 to 408 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Questions without Notice help in its capital development. This assistance was provided subject to the company achieving an agreed level of export sales for the new snack pack products, and it is important that that focus is a major part of the department's policy initiatives. I am pleased to inform honourable members that the snack pack project has been a great success, is on-stream and is workin$ effectively. It is one of the reasons why the department is interested in further cultivating other developments. If honourable members who represent rural areas see opportunities for further initiatives to increase the export potential and exposure of widely based industries, the department and I personally will be happy to hear from them about such initiatives.

BENDIGO LEATHER AND TANNERY PROJECT The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-The Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources would be aware that in September last year, just prior to the State election, the former Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources, Mr Fordham, announced that a major international consortium was considering a $40 million leather and tannery project in Bendi$o. The then Minister's statement concluded, "My department is optimistic that It will result in a venture of major economic significance for Bendigo and Victoria". Is it a fact that this initiative did not go ahead and, if so, why was the announcement made so prematurely? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I am unaware of the announcement, nor am I aware what progress has occurred since that date. I shall be happy to investigate whether such an announcement was made and whether the matter is still under consideration.

HOME RENOVATION SERVICE The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne North Province)-Elderly and disabled home owners are often at risk as their properties decline and maintenance and repairs are needed. Can the Minister for Housing and Construction advise the House of his Ministry's assistance to these home owners? The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-Most elderly home owners prefer, ifpossible, to live in their own homes rather than being admitted to institutional care. A crucial factor in this situation is the repair of their homes and, although such people may be asset-rich, they are income-poor. They also require advice to enable them to organise the maintenance. The Ministry of Housing and Construction has two programs designed to deal with that problem. The first is the home renovation advisory and referral service, which is free to elderly and disabled people in Victoria. By contacting the Ministry they can obtain free advice about repairs that may be tackled in $eir homes. That service has resulted in approximately 5000 inspections over the past three years. The advisory service is connected with the second Ministry facility, the home renovation service; people are able to obtain low-interest loans of up to $20 000 to enable them to carry out necessary repairs. The details of both programs have been published in a booklet entitled Maintaining and Repairing your Home, which is available from the Ministry. It provides a check list for people to help them make a first assessment and follow it up by calling on the free advisory service. I t has been a well accepted service and fills a niche in that area of the community dealing with the elderly. It is in their interest that they remain in their homes in a community situation. Valuation ofLand Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 409

VALUATION OF LAND (AMENDMENT) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. M. A. L YSTER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

LEGAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL COMMITTEE Public liability of voluntary organisations The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province) presented a report from the Legal and Constitutional Committee upon the public liapility of voluntary organisations together with appendices and minutes of evidence. The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-I move: That they be laid on the table, and that the report and appendices be printed. Before the motion is put, I shall make one or two comments about the report. I particularly commend those members of the Legal and Constitutional Committee in the last Parliament who did the vast bulk of the work leading to the report being presented today. At that stage, under the chairmanship of the honourable member for Benambra in the other place, the report had reached draft stage. The final polish on the report was made by the incoming committee, although the new committee had a significant input into the format of the final report and the recommendations contained in its body. The issue arose because a number of voluntary organisations throughout Victoria­ particularly in north-eastern Victoria-were concerned about the personal liability of their members and the possibility of a suit for damages, either personal or property. This was not fully covered by the Associations Incorporation Act. They were concerned about the very hIgh cost of third-party insurance. This led to considerable concern among volunteers and a real concern that voluntary organisations may not attract the necessary assistance from members of the community who make them work and that the community would be the poorer because of the lack of this voluntary effort. It has been noted that throughout Victoria at least some events that have been held over a long period have been cancelled because of this concern. The committee took evidence at a number of places throughout Victoria and has now arrived at what the committee is proud to present as a viable document in the field and one which contains sensible, reasonable and valuable recommendations. I commend the report to the House. The motion was agreed to. On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the report be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting.

PAPERS The following papers, pursuant to the directions of several Acts of Parliament, were laid on the table by the Clerk: Annual Reporting Act 1983-Treasurer's advice of 18 April 1989 of extension of time granted to submit annual reports and exemptions approved as to content of annual reports and financial statements of various administrative units and public bodies for the year 1987-88 and the reasons therefore 410 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 MMBW Regulations

Statutory Rules under the following Acts of Parliament: Fertilizers Act 1974-No. 55. Margarine Act 1975-No. 56. Metropolitan Fire Brigades Superannuation Act 1976-No. 80.

MMBW REGULATIONS The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-I move: That the following Notice of Motion, Business to Take Precedence, be read and discharged: That Regulations 601 to 605 inclusive and Regulations 701 to 704 inclusive of the MMBW By-Law No. 239: River By-Law (SR No. 332/1988) be disallowed. This results from a decision taken by the Legal and Constitutional Committee which has accepted that the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works would withdraw the regulation and would substitute a further regulation at a later stage. The motion was agreed to, and the notice of motion was withdrawn.

FORESTS (DONNA BUANG TOURIST ROAD SCENIC RESERVES) REGULATIONS The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-I move: That the following Notice of Motion, Business to Take Precedence, be read and discharged: That Regulations 5, 12 (2) and 12 (3) of the Forests (Donna Buang Tourist Road Scenic Reserves) Regulations 1988 (SR No. 390/1988) be disallowed. I withdraw this notice of motion because the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands has indicated that the regulation is beyond power and that it will be withdrawn and a new regulation promulgated. The Legal and Constitutional Committee this morning accepted the assurance of the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands that she would take this action. In those circumstances, it has been resolved that the notice of motion should be withdrawn from the Notice Paper. The motion was agreed to, and the notice of motion was withdrawn.

PINE PLANTING The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I move: That this House deplores the Cain government's current policy of purchasing freehold grazing land to meet its commitment for the commercial planting of pines, when adequate areas of public land are available and suitable for that purpose, and condemns its unwillingness to include the issue of planting pines on public land in the terms of reference of its current inquiry. In bringing this motion forward I seek to do two things: to explain why the National Party is adamantly opposed to this government policy, and to put forward several positive alternatives. Some months ago I was contacted by an irate farmer who complained that he had been unsuccessful in his negotiations to purchase an adjoining property. He was keen to buy that property as it would have made his unit much more viable, because its location would have made it relatively easy to manage and, especially, because he had sons of an age where he was wishing to extend to them the opportunity of goin~s!d the farming business. He was cross when he learnt that the property had been pure by a government agency, the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 411

He complained that public funds-indeed, his own funds-would be used to disadvantage him in that way. He asked me why the government saw the need to purchase private land, in this case, top quality summer grazing land, when it already controlled about one-third of the landmass of the State, some 8 million hectares. Some of it was in the specific location where the purchase had been made. I did not placate him; I was not able to do so, and I did not try because he was outlining to me precisely why the National Party had taken up a stance of opposition to this policy from the first time it had been announced. I did a simple computation on the basis of stamp duty, and it turned out that the margin by which he had missed that purchase was less than the stamp duty differential. In other words, he had arguably been unable to acquire the proPerty simply because the government authority was exempt from stamp duty-it had used that advantage against him. The Hon. B. W. Mier-How much was it? The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-The margin was something like $40 000, which suggests that the price of the property was in the vicinity of $700 000. But the point is that he had lost as a direct result of the advantage which the other purchaser held over him, and he put it to me that that was unfair competition-a claim which I did not dispute. Ifhe was unhappy when he got to me he was even more unhappy when I explained the circumstances of the case because the mere fact that the government had been prepared to move into the market and pay $40 000 more than the value placed on that property by the owner of a neighbouring property-which I suggest may have been greater than its intrinsic value in the first place-meant that all the values in that area would be arbitrarily and artificially inflated, and the one person who would be likely to take notice of that first would be the valuer, under the Local Government Act. So, in fact, what would happen would be that the valuer would see the price in this instance and would automatically adjust the values of properties in the vicinity. Therefore, his disadvantage was even greater than he first thought because his existing property would be valued at a higher level, and his municipal rates would increase as a direct result. Worse still is the fact that because a government agency purchased the land, and because the government is exempt from municipal rates, freehold landowners in the municipality would be required collectively to shoulder a greater burden of the general rate levied and so, in that instance as well, he would be facing an increased rate payment-a rate burden because it had been a government agency that had purchased the land! His blood pressure was not helped when I explained to him that, because a government agency purchased the land alongside him, he therefore assumed the sole responsibility, from that date, for the construction and maintenance of the boundary fencing-not a factor to be taken lightly. Then, on top of that, I explained to him that, because a government agency had purchased the land, as it turned out for the purpose of growing pines, he would have no right of appeal against the planting of those pines simply because the government is exempt from planning controls. Therefore, in this instance also, he had no right to challenge the pines being planted on the next-door property. Regardless of whether environmental factors were to be taken into account, he had no right of appeal. By that time he was frothing at the mouth at the unfairness of the system. The simple fact is that the policy adopted by the government to purchase private freehold land to meet its commitment in relation to pine plantations is a direct result 412 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting of a previous policy decision that there would be no more clearing of public land in this State. The factor that added insult to injury in this instance was that, not long after the government took possession of the property, it sent in bulldozers to clear the last vestiges of native vegetation from the block. That double standard made him particularly irate. How can it be that, on one hand, the government claims to have a policy that prohibits the clearing of public land yet, on the other, buys individual freehold properties and clears them of vegetation? Is it not a fact that on the very day those properties are acquired, by definition they become public land? I put it to the House that that is a very clear instance of double standards. I have used that example to illustrate the thrust of my motion and to explain why members of the National Party are implacably opposed to the government competing for the purchase of private land to meet its pine plantation commitments. The National Party is not opposed to the increased planting of either softwood or hardwood in the State. Above all others in the community, members of the National Party have to live with the mistakes of previous generations. But I am delighted with the change in attitude to the need to increase the State's forest stands. There is no dispute about the need for additional forest coverage; but members of the National Party look askance at the fact that each year Victoria imports $1600 million worth of timber and timber products. It is clear to any honourable member who examines the issue that the government has a golden opportunity to take up the slack. After all, we have the land; in many cases we have the forests; and we certainly have the industry base and the required technology for taking up that slack. Even Mr Mier would have to concede that the realising of that opportunity falls within the government's stated objective of import replacement. What better opportunity could there be when a substantial industry already exists and the need is so clearly defined? I can use no better evidence to make that claim than to refer to the government's Timber Industry Strategy, which records that at present the timber industry accounts for 8 per cent of the State's manufacturing industry and employs approximately 6500 people directly and 21 000 in the processing sector. The document also states that, as a result of a flow-on effect, employment opportunities for 42 000 people currently exist. Apart from the fact that those statistics suggest the need to nurture, protect and promote the industry, the most outstanding aspect of the industry is its potential, a potential that could be realised given nothing more than sane and practical management techniques. The realising of that potential will not involve the exploitation of the timber resource. Members of the National Party are critical of the degradation of forests throughout the world. But that potential could be achieved while maintaining a sustainable yield, an objective the government claims it holds dear. The National Party is not opposed to an increase in the forest resource. Nor is it opposed to the government's involvement in the timber industry. Because the government controls one-third of State land as well as the vast majority of the State's forest resource, it is natural that the government should be involved in the industry. It is the government, above all other bodies, that has the opportunity, and indeed the responsibility, to realise that potential. Much more can be achieved. We are wasting a valuable resource. We are artificially suppressing the living standards of our community because the government will not recognise that opportunity. The government is doing so because of its inappropriate, wasteful and Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 413 counterproductive policies, which are designed primarily to placate a well-meaning but misguided conservation lobby. I shall give one isolated example of the position of the government. I refer to the ban on the chipping of residual roundwood, a policy about which I shake my head. The government's policy is that after a forestry operation is completed no roundwood residue shall be used for chipping. The only rationale for the policy is that apparently the government is afraid of a chip-driven industry. But who would deliberately decide to chip a resource when a dramatically better return is available from sawn timber? Currently $20 million in royalties is left on the forest floor annually. Victoria wastes approximately $100 million of export income because the residue is left on the forest floor and enormous problems are created at the same time. The residue is a barrier to revegetation, which is recognised as being vital to the longevity of forests. The residue will not burn during the planting programs, but it represents an enormous fire risk later on. If it has not been destroyed by fire and has not contributed to the destruction of the forest in the process, at the other end of the cropping cycle in 80 years time it will complicate the harvesting process. It is an incredibly naive policy, particularly in light of its rationale. The National Party appreciates that it was necessary for the government to make a commitment to the softwood reserves, particularly in an industry that is capital intensive and heavily reliant upon continuity of supply. Nevertheless, the National Party maintains that the purchase of freehold grazing properties to meet that commitment is unnecessary and is unbelievably short-sighted and costly. I shall examine the categories of cost. Firstly, it is a waste of taxpayers' funds. We have been told that the government has accepted a commitment to plant a further 27 300 hectares to pine by the year 1996. Using the rule of thumb which suggests that we can expect to plant approximately 60 per cent of any property purchase, I suggest that we are not looking at purchases amounting to 27000 hectares but rather 46 000 hectares of land. The criteria that the government uses are: the land must fall within those areas of the State that enjoy a minimum of 700 millimetres of rainfall a year, the land must be relatively flat to avoid the additional cost involved with steeply inclined land; and the land must have suitable soils. In the face of those criteria, the land would be valued at $1000 a hectare. The policy would require an outlay of taxpayers' funds amounting to $46 million. That is an arrant waste of taxpayers' funds when the government controls vast acreages within the State which would be available cost-free. If that $46 million were used in other areas, for example, in joint ventures with private industry, I have no doubt that the plantations could be provided, whereas the government merely intends to buy the land. Given the dimension of public land controlled by the government, even if national parks, areas that were considered unsuitable because of their topography and rainfall and land considered sensitive in a conservation sense were all excluded, there is no doubt that there would be ample land available to meet that 46000-hectare commitment. I repeat, we believe the investment in this case to be an arrant waste of taxpayers' funds. The second cost refers to the reduction of the traditional farmland base. I am sorry the Leader of the House is not here because when he was Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs, which is not so long ago, he went on record as saying that one of his top priorities was the protection of that traditional farmland base. He recognised that productive farmland was a scarce resource that was being swallowed up at an alarming rate, particularly by the expansion of our residential estates. We simply cannot go on indefinitely allowing the urban sprawl in all directions. Corridors on the outskirts of 414 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting our metropolitan communities are protruding further each year. The long-term effects of that, if we project today's situation ten or fifteen years down the track, are horrific. I should like to argue the National Party's policy on decentralisation generally-the balanced development of the State-but that is another issue. What we say is that the urban sprawl, which at this stage is unchecked, is having a dramatic effect on the dimension of farmland in the State. When in fact our agricultural sector continues to provide about $45 of every $100 in export income, it should be in the best interests of every Victorian to ensure that that resource is protected for all time. I have often heard the retort, "What is the difference between pines and any other form of grazing or cropping?" and that we should not object on that basis. However, you know, Mr President, the government's intrusion via the purchase of freehold land totally ignores the relative returns. No analysis is undertaken. The government sees a piece of land that will serve its purpose and buys it. At the least, an analysis should be undertaken to ascertain whether it is more economic to plant pines on that land or to continue with the existing use, and that analysis should be made public. Moreover, when the government intrudes into the market to buy freehold grazing land, there is a substitution effect. In other words, the government's policy merely replaces the traditional land use and traditional production whereas, if it were prepared to use public land, there would be an expansion of our economic base. That appears to be the key issue. Accordingly, the erosion of our farming land base is the second cost. The third cost is also important and I want to place it on the record. We see the social impact as being one of the most important costs relating to this policy. Each time a farm is purchased by the government and converted to pines, the community loses a family. That places greater pressure on the services of that community. Country communities have faced that pressure for many years and perhaps there is no better barometer than the enrolment at our rural schools where the downturn has been astronomical over the past 30 or 40 years. The irony is that the government is encouraging those communities to fight back. In fact there is a great deal of rhetoric, at least in respect of that fight. The government that is encouraging the fight back is increasing the pressure by another policy. The policy of the government requires these purchases, at least to some extent, to be localised to meet the commitment under the contracts involved. We are not talking about the loss of one family but the loss of several families. That is why we put the social cost so high. We belIeve on those grounds alone that this policy represents a potential disaster. That is the problem and that is the cost involved. I turn now to what could be done in accordance with National Party policy. The first thing which must be done, and we all have a responsibility in this respect, is to overcome the fallacy that we can save our forests by simply locking them up. Clearly, in this State many thousands of hectares of Crown land have been allowed to become degenerated forest, known in common usage as mongrel scrub. That particularly applies to stringy-bark and messmate. Those forests have been picked over for generations. All the better trees have been taken and the rejects have become the base breeding stock. We have excluded fire as a management tool and thousands ofhectares of scrubland are dying with virtually no regrowth at all. That is the truth. The truth is also that much of that land is admirably suited to the growing of pines and until a few years ago that was precisely the policy of the government. So it is useless putting forward an argument that the land is unsuitable because the evidence of the past 50 years gives the lie to that. Those areas have been used successfully for generations. If the government has a hang-up about planting Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 415 pines on public land, I would be just as happy to see the hardwood forests regenerated. They might be even more valuable. The Hon. B. W. Mier-They are. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-The returns might take longer to achieve but they might be greater. It is Mr Mier's problem that he cannot bring himself to plant pines on public land. We will gladly agree ifhe plants a hardwood specimen on the land. The Hon. B. W. Mier-We do. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-I am intrigued by the honourable member's hang-up with pines. The government is saying in its policy that pines ar~ no longer a suitable replacement for native vegetation. If that is the case, how can the government deliberately buy land and then replace vegetation with pines, which is what it is doing under its current policy? The Hon. B. W. Mier-Y ou are telling us it is grazing land. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM-The government is buying the land to plant pines. What is the difference if it becomes public land the day it is purchased? That is the point I am making. In addition, it is clear that controlled logging enhances the longevity of our forests by the replacing effect of wildfire. Patch clear felling, the policy adopted by this government, coupled with a regeneration program, is the absolute key to the conservation of our forests in their natural state. To that extent, I am totally frustrated by the government's logging policy. By way of illustration, two years ago the government decided to close off an area of land known as the Black Range between Hamilton and Horsham. I could probably live with that but the illogicality is that in that instance the Minister said it was closed because there were no mill logs in the forest. The local sawmiller disagreed. Qosing the forest would guarantee that there were no mill logs there because the longevity of the forest depends on logging. I find the rationale incredible. If there are no big trees today, there certainly will not be in the future, simply because we cannot afford the risk of wildfire and have taken it out of the management regime. We are now saying we are not prepared to replace it with anythin~. In 50 years time the coun~ will prove us to be right. There is now a stunted and dYIng forest at that location. It 1S ironic, to say the least, that carefully managed harvesting is required to retain the vitality of the forest. The second alternative is that the government could seekjoint ventures with existing land-holders. That would enable the government to meet its commitment to the supply of pines. There would be no need whatsoever for the government to purchase land. In fact, there would be no need for it to be involved in any way. Therefore, the $46 million would be saved for a start. This suggestion would also have the added advantage of being able to address the problems of erosion and salinity. LandCare groups have been springing up all over the community, which is something of which I am very proud indeed. It is a testament to the emerging recognition of the need for prompt and unified action. I su~est, if the government were prepared to encourage those LandCare ~oups and pnvate landowners generally to take up the supply commitment, which 1S the subject of the motion, it should not do so merely as a cash crop but also it should marry it in with a program of erosion and salinity control. If the government were prepared to donate the $46 million, it would cover the cost of all the seedlings and, I suggest, also the vast majority of the fencing required; it would overcome the most important barrier we face today-the costs being confronted by existing landowners. 416 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

I am not suggesting for a moment that the government has not been involved in that program. In fact, I shall give credit where it is due: the government is to be commended for its promotion of the LandCare concept, and at least its stated concern about the problems of erosion and salinity. However, it seems to me to be quite illogical, in the next breath, for it to be taking the policy decision that underpins this motion. It would be a logical and quite simple step to go that bit further and to marry the commitment for the supply of pines with the objective of tackling salinity and erosion. It would certainly save the capital involvement of $46 million and it would promote land-holder involvement, which, in itself, is crucial to finding some long-term solutions to those problems. The third alternative that I canvass for the consideration of the government-and I put it forward in the spirit of cooperation-is for the government to open suitable areas of Crown land to the private forest companies. Again, that reverts to the underlying, wasteful policy that there be no clearing of timber on public land, and there is a need to find some way around that. I hope sanity will prevail in that respect. I have no doubt whatsoever that the private forest companies would queue to take up portions of public land. That could be facilitated under leasing, licensing or rental arrangements, some form of joint venture, or even partnerships. Those companies would welcome that because they, too, have been forced onto the private market as a result of the government's policy. Therefore, when the local farming community becomes involved in a land auction, it has to compete not only with the government under this policy but also with the private pine-growing companies which are also the victims of the same policy. Some municipalities in the province that I represent are losing land at the rate of 3 per cent a year either through government purchases or conversion to pine plantations by private operators. This is of major concern. One of the advantages of the alternative just outlined-that is, the opening up of public land to private pine-growing companies-is that the government would not box in its options, because that decision could be reviewed as a matter of course at the end of the production cycle. However, when the government has moved in and actually purchased the land, it has little alternative other than to justify that investment over a much longer term. That is the background to the National Party's opposition to the government's policy of purchasing freehold land for the planting of pines. I am sure that many ofthe issues I have raised today will be examined and considered by the State Plantations Impact Study currently bein~ undertaken. I look forward to the release of the findings of the study. However, it IS absolutely incredible that the study does not include consideration of the planting of pines on existing public land. Although the study is examining the effects of the current policy for the purchase of freehold land, it does not address itself to the policy that causes us all the heartburn­ the question of planting pines on Crown land. To that extent, the study is nothing but a snow job; it assumes what the National Party believes the inquiry should have been sent out to establish, and it has become a nonsense. The National Party has no such hang-ups. It says the policy of the government entering the market to buy private freehold grazin~ land to meet its commitments for the supply of pines is irrational; it is misguided; it IS wasteful of a valuable resource; it is socially disruptive; it is unfair in its application; and it represents a misappropriation of public funds. There is no doubt that sufficient Crown land could be devoted to the planting of pines; that there is sufficient Crown land available for the government to meet its commitment for softwood supply; and that that alternative could be taken up, resulting in not only a negligible environmental impact but also a positive environmental impact, which gives the lie to the arguments that honourable members Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 417 on this side of the House have heard from the government. In addition, there would be no requirement for a single dollar to be taken from the public purse, and that is perhaps the best argument of all. I enthusiastically commend the motion to the House. The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-On behalf of the Liberal Party, I express support for the motion, certainly as it pertains to the use of prime agricultural land for the purposes of pine plantations. I speak with some personal understanding of the problems at a micro level-to use the current jargon-that pine plantations present for communities where prime agricultural land has been purchased by the government and used for the purpose of pine plantation. I shall enumerate the dIfficulties that are faced by communities that find themselves in that position. I shall then demonstrate that there are other alternatives to the use of prime agricultural land for pine plantation but, even more importantly, that the emphasis in Victoria-which historically grows the most superb hardwood trees-should be on meeting the legislative requirements of our pine commitments. Those commitments have been spelt out by Mr Hallam. The emphasis should also be placed on having a different priority in our forest-growing practices that ensures we can grow eucalypts­ which, as I said, Victoria can do uniquely, whereas pines can be grown virtually anywhere in many parts of the world better and more economically than in Victoria. Finally, I shall comment on the government's recent announcement that 100 million trees will be planted over the next ten years and I shall ask some pertinent questions about ,,:here those trees are to be planted and what sort of trees they will be. The first real public outcry about the government's policy of purchasing private agricultural land occurred in 1988, when Stuart Morant, who lived in a small valley in the Tallangatta area, realised that the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands was purchasing small private properties for the purpose of planting pines. Mr Stuart Morant saw his farming neighbours being enticed into selling. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-Being picked off! The Hon. M. T. TEHAN-As Mr Hallam says, they were being picked off, being manoeuvred into selling land for the purpose of establishing pine plantations. I went up to the valley and saw what was going on. It was only when the density of the pine plantations that were to emerge in the area as a result of the government's policy began to be manifest that the people of the valley decided that enough was enough. There was considerable public interest and pubhc press when a farm known as the Bosse farm was put on the market for auction and purchased by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. Even in the processes by which the land was acquired, the government was able to outbid and outstrip any person who might have wanted to bid against it. There are two reasons for that. The first is that the government has a financial advantage in that it does not have to pay stamp duty on its purchase. Stamp duty is a substantial consideration on a purchase well in excess of$200 000. Respective purchasers in what is supposed to be a free auction arrangement do not have the same competitive starting point because they know they must pay the 4 per cent stamp duty. As I said, the Crown is exempt from that tax. The second reason why the government can outbid a prospective purchaser is that it is difficult for a private purchaser to bid for the land when it is known that there is a government land use policy. The policy was that the whole valley would be taken over for the purpose of planting pines. It became apparent that eventually the landowners

Session 1989-14 418 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting of the small holdings-the holdings are small because it is dairying land-would find themselves surrounded by pine plantations. One Sunday afternoon I drove to Stuart Morant's house and sat with him and the people of the valley and heard the story. The people decided that they would do something about it when they could see where the policy was taking their valley and its implications for them. They are ordinary farming people. It was only the force of their commitment to and concern about what was happening to their valley that brought it to the attention of the media and ultimately resulted in an inquiry being set in train. The inquiry is the basis of the debate this afternoon. As Mr Hallam said, the terms of the inquiry do not go far enough and do not take into account many of the issues still relevant and still worrying large numbers of country Victorian people. When one sees the land at Tallangatta and the pines that have been planted already and one sees good arable land which had been productive­ land that had grazed dairy and beef cattle and that will carry sheep and has for generations-being taken and cleared, one is distressed. The irony is that in establishing a pine plantation one must clear all of the native trees in the area. The trees are bulldozed, put into rows, and burnt. The planting operation starts after that. As well as pine plantations not being aesthetically acceptable to the valley, the social and economic costs of the implementation of this government policy must be taken into account. These matters eventually weighed on the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands and resulted in the establishment of the inquiry. The farm owners have indicated to me that they were disadvantaged in having the Crown for a neighbour because in many instances the Crown was a neighbour on three sides and the farm owners had to bear all the costs offencing. As honourable members will be aware, the Crown is exempt from fencing under the terms of the Fences Act. With the new purchase and the land being used for planting pines, the fences were considerable in length. They had to be strong fences to act as a barrier against the normal build-up of rabbits, foxes and feral animals that abound in forest plantations, so as to protect the last remaining agricultural land. It was not difficult to see that foxes and dogs could not be kept under control in the vast plantation areas that we looked at. They were coming through and literally killing calves and sheep. Fencing became a major cost item and, as I said, it was borne solely by the private landowners. Under normal farming conditions or under any private land subdivision, fencing costs are borne on a 50-50 basis by the adjoining landowners. The local community suffered social disruption through the loss of farming families who had traditionally been the backbone of those areas. Again, if one visits the Tallangatta Valley one cannot help but see what is happening. I was shown places where farmhouses had been for some 50 or 60 years and had been occupied in the past by perhaps 30 families. With the acquisition of the land by the State for the purpose of establishing pine plantations, there was no need for anyone to remain in the area. The government was the owner and the houses were empty; some had fallen into disrepair, had been demolished or removed to make more space. There was an obvious, immediate and direct impact on the farming community. One might say that the areas would, under normal circumstances, with a drift to the city, eventually experience a decrease in population, but the change was dramatic and in a short time it impacted on the remaining families. School buses, which were dependent on pupil numbers for their continued service, would no longer be available. The little schools that serviced the areas would also not be available because of the decrease in population among the children. The schools would be closed under the government's policy of closing small and rural schools. Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 419

The municipalities in the area were facing a major reduction in their rate base. Because of reduced numbers of ratepayers, the municipalities could not maintain their rate base at their previous standard. In addition to the immediate loss of direct rate revenue, the municipalities were faced with huge expenditure for road maintenance. Once the pines have matured and transport is required to remove them, roads must be established. Even in the early stages during the planting of the pines, the servicing of the plantations increases the transport use of the local-predominantly unmade­ roads. Finally, there was considerable community concern expressed at the change in the environmental value of the landscape and of the valley as a whole. The people were concerned at the loss of the native flora and fauna and at the loss of the acceptable environmental and aesthetic values they had traditionally enjoyed. The people were fortunate because they were at least able to effect a moratorium on what was to be the wholesale purchase and planting of the area. As I said, it was only' through the determination of Mr Morant and his committee to stop the program until a proper appraisal had been done on the long-term effects of the program that the moratorium was set in place and an inquiry was instituted. The terms of that inquiry were limited in their scope and certainly limited in their geographical area. The former Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, now the Minister for Education, on 6 June 1988 indicated that she would set up an inquiry­ in principle, it was a socioeconomic study of the impact of timber plantations on the north-east region-and that the terms of reference for the study should include the issue of roads and rates. The inquiry is better than nothing, but I was staggered when, within three months of that June statement, representatives met with me from an area even closer to me than the Tallangatta Valley. Those spokespersons were concerned about the same problem in the Strathbogie Ranges and the Merton and north-eastem area. They had bought a special area of Victoria on a hillside above the valley with a modicum of tree cover-perhaps not prime agricultural land, but good agricultural land-where people could live and continue a farming tradition and where they could enjoy the benefits of a farming enterprise and make a living from that soil. It was not the rich dairy plains of the Tallangatta Valley, but it nonetheless carried sheep and cattle and was of particular importance to the families in the Strathbogie Ranges. I suppose "clandestine" is too strong a word, but it was almost a covert system of purchase by the government. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-"Sneaky" is the word. The Hon. M. T. TEHAN-"Covert", anyway. Until the plantings took place, it was not obvious what the ramifications of those purchases would be. One by one areas were picked out, and it was only after time the pattern emerged and it became clear that that area was one of the designated areas that the government had selected for the plantation of pines. It was good agricultural land; land on which families could make a living and land that families had held for generations. When the pattern became obvious, the farmers said, "No, enough; we don't want any more." They met with me-and I believe they met with Mr Evans who also represents the area-and asked "What can be done?" I spoke with Mr Eric Tame and Mr John Anderson. They called a public meeting and formed the Strathbogie Pine Action Group. They made an undertaking to hold onto the essential values of their area and to not have those areas eroded by a pine plantation policy that would saturate the whole of that area. Sadly, they had to start afresh because their problems and concerns could not be addressed by the original inquiry announced on 6 June concerning timber plantation in the north-east region because that inquiry was limited to that particular area; however, I understand that Pam Robinson, chairperson of the inquiry, visited the Strathbogie 420 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting area. Nevertheless, the terms of reference of that inquiry precluded her committee from making any direct finding in relation to the Strathbogie area. Those two illustrations are sufficient to show that the Liberal Party is seriously concerned with the present policy of the purchase of freehold farmland for the purposes of pine plantation. The illustrations I have given are not peculiar to the north east; such purchases are also occurring in the Otways, in western Victoria and in other areas of Victoria. They are predominantly areas that are close to the source of the needs of the big pine operators. There are economic advantages in not having to take the pines very far, but those advantages are substantially offset by the loss to the community of the value of the agricultural product from the prime agricultural land. I shall quote some statistics from the Timber Industry Strategy of August 1986. That year Victoria had a State plantation resource-and I am speaking only ofsoftwood forests-of 19 300 hectares in eight management areas. Private plantations covered 89 100 hectares. Victoria has the highest level of private investment in plantations in Australia. It is anticipated that new private plantings over the past five years have been established at an annual rate of 2460 hectares and State plantings at an annual rate of2580 hectares. It is imperative that the government meet the commitments entered into some years ago and, in fairness, before the government was elected in 1982- The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Supported by the Opposition. The Hon. M. T. TEHAN-Yes, and I understand the legislation has subsequently been introduced by the government. There are legislative requirements on any government to meet its commitment with regard to softwood plantings; it must meet those requirements on a continuing annual basis. There is demand for an additional 16 400 hectares of pine plantations to be established in the north east of the State and for a further 11 600 hectares in the Latrobe Valley. The placement of the plantations intrigues me: they are obviously close to the area where the operators need the plantations. That in itself is a short-sighted policy. There is private and public land available in Victoria for pine plantations to meet our current legislative requirements, but not necessarily at the centre of demand. The cost has to be borne by the operators, or some form of subsidy must be provided for the transport costs to be met; but the land does not necessarily have to be adjacent to or close to the operator who requires the supply. That would open up a huae vista of other land that would be more suitable for meeting those legislative commitments. Mr Hallam referred to the government policy of not planting pines on public land. I should correct him on the basis that it is not public land per se; it is public land with native forest. Inquiries I have made indicate that there is sufficient land available outside the area that is currently planted to native forest. I refer the House to page 55 of the Timber Industry Strategy document, which states: The replacement of native forest with pine plantations has been one of the major environmental impacts of the pine program. Because of this there has been a significant shift away from native forest to the purchase of cleared farm land. The government is admitting that the policy had been evolving at that stage. The document continues: In the past five years, of the 30 000 hectares of State pine plantation established in Victoria, 6000 have been established on purchased cleared land. Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 421

So the policy has evolved over the time the government has been in office. When the Timber Industry Strategy was released in 1986 it was a prominent Labor Party policy. The document then states: To implement its policy on this issue the government will phase out by June 1987 the establishment of softwood plantations on areas carrying native forest. Honourable members should examine areas carrying native forest and consider the definition of a forest. Even if one accepts the environmental views of the government's policy, there appear to be adequate opportunities for poor agricultural land or poor semi-cleared public land to be used to meet legislative requirements. I refer particularly to areas opened up inadvertently over the past 100 years. Many thousands of hectares of non-farming land fit into that category. I do not wish to designate a specific area, but there is one portion of land in north­ eastern Victoria, close to where I reside, that has been cleared but is difficult to farm. In this day and age when one is attempting to achieve a higher productivity from land to survive, that cleared land is not a viable farming proposition. There are thousands of acres like that in Victoria. The government should examine these areas to meet its legislative requirements for pine plantations. I admit that additional transport costs would be incurred but they should be accepted by the government and the community. It is a much less significant cost than the social and economic impacts of the current policy of purchasing prime land which is a cost to both the community and individuals involved. Mr Hallam referred to a similar problem of waste involving forest products. I shall not dwell on that, but I endorse his remarks on the scandal involving forest floor waste which is part of the government's policy of not using fully the residual roundwood rubbish left after a forest floor has been logged for sawn timber. The allegation has been thrown at the opposition parties that Victoria would then be edging into a woodchip industry, but that is not the case. In any normal sawlog-driven operation there is residual roundwood that cannot be accommodated by the sawlog-driven industry. I shall refer to that in terms of the Professor Ferguson report and subsequent investigations that have indicated the amount of waste as a result of this ill-advised policy in our forest areas. Professor Ferguson in his report into the timber industry in June 1985-a wide-ranging inquiry-estimated that the economic benefits in East Gippsland from the utilisation of forest waste in an integrated logging operation was worth between $160 to $700 a hectare from areas currently being used for sawloc harvesting only_ He also noted that the environmental costs of utilisation ofthat forest residue was low. The government has a number of misconceptions about the best use of Victoria's forest products-and this is one of them. The requirement to plant pine plantations should be limited to the legislative requirements the government has locked itself into, or to the choice by owners of private land to plant pines. It appears that there is a high proportion of private plantations in Victoria. Victoria is unique in the growing of oustanding hardwoods and eucalypts. The government's priority and emphasis should be to concentrate on them. I had that premise in mind when I read the press release of 4 April 1989 of the Premier and the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands in which the Premier announced a new plan to replant Victoria's lost trees. That was a commendable but cynically timed announcement. The Premier said that Victoria would plant 100 million trees over the next twenty years. He said that currently Victoria is replanting trees on 2000 hectares a year and that the program will lift the rate to 10000 hectares a year. 422 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

I ask the Minister for Housing and Construction, who is in charge of this debate, to say where those trees are being planted and, more particularly, how many are part of the current softwood plantation. The House should be told how many trees will be commercially planted softwood, firstly, to meet legislative requirements and, secondly, how much is a commercial operation. That is an important question because 100 million trees at 50 cents a tree over the next twenty years is a substantial amount. Some $2·5 million will be spent every year for the next twenty years. The government's action is commendable and should have the support of the industry, private owners and farmers. I ask the Minister to inform the House where the trees are, what types of trees they are, and how much of this program will be incorporated in the existing legislative requirements of softwood plantations for the purpose of meeting commercial contracts. Mr Hallam is well aware of the concerns of farming communities throughout Victoria. I have referred to the commercial planting of pines on freehold grazing land. It is a shame that the terms of reference of the current inquiry did not broaden the debate, extend the opportunity for input from other communities similarly disadvantaged, or provide the opportunity to examine other land to meet the requirements. The Liberal Party supports the motion. The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW (Geelong Province}-For four years before I entered this House I was chairman of the ALP policy committee on conservation and the environment. In that time the committee membership was widely representative, including industry and rural interests, and it consulted widely on a policy that the Labor Party took into the 1982 State election. The policy on timber was refined by the government and, particularly, as a result of the timber industry inquiry conducted by Professor Ferguson. The government also refined it in terms of placing it within the State economic strategy and introducing into it a measure of social justice which influenced considerations such as the need to increase or maintain employment in rural areas and to maintain rural communities. One of the fundamentals of the policy was that there should be no clearance of public land covered by native timber. So far as the policy committee was concerned, the expression "native timber" referred to any ecological system, whether it be bush, natural timber, or some type of heath land. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Why did it arrive at that position? The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW - The committee was concerned to ensure for future generations of Victorians the existence of a good representative example of a natural ecosystem that would be a major resource for the future. Over recent years that has become more critical especially when one considers overclearance of natural ecosystems in South America, Asia and so on. There is an inescapable responsibility to maintain to the maximum reasonable extent the coverage of Victoria's landscape by a natural ecosystem. I remind the House that in 1869 some 20 million hectares of Victoria was covered by forests and woodlands. That is approximately 90 per cent of the State. In 1987 that area had been reduced to some 8 million hectares comprising some 35 per cent of the State. Bearing in mind the reductions that have occurred in other parts of the world, a serious question arises. The policy committee specified that native forests should not be replaced by pine plantation because they are completely incompatible with native vegetation. Pine plantations do not have the same Australian heritage as native forests. The committee foresaw the possibility of meeting the State's needs-or going a reasonable distance Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 423 towards meeting those needs-for softwood by planting pines in areas other than those currently covered by native forests. The Labor Party went into the 1982, 1985 and 1988 State elections with that policy, and there is now a greater acceptance within the communit), of that position. I note with some interest that Mrs Tehan refrained from suggestIng that pines should be planted on public land covered with native forests. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-She was careful in her definition of what a native forest is, and it is not as broad as your definition. The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW-I shall come to that point shortly. At least the Liberal Party, as suggested by Mrs Tehan, is taking some notice of the general community view on this problem, whereas the National Party would apparently be happy to develop natural areas as pine plantations to generate economic activity, commercial income and so on. A real need exists for native forests to be retained. The government's timber industry strategy requires that pine plantations should be concentrated in areas best able to support industry and where there are legislative commitments to supply softwood to industry. I am sure Mr Mackenzie will comment on the geographical restrictions that would come into play. The land where pines are planted must also meet certain requirements with regard to rainfall, terrain and so on. The availability of roads capable of carrying resultant traffic is a factor, and consideration must be given to any impact on local communities as well as the viability of pines growing on certain areas of land. A further restriction is a required return on investment. If an area has a relatively poor potential for production, the government will not accept it as a potential site for a pine plantation. The current public plantations cover some 101 ()()() hectares, which is approximately 81 per cent of the requirement to 1996. Mr Hallam referred to 27 ()()() hectares being a further requirement to 1996. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-That is taken directly from the Timber Industry Strategy. The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW -As I understand it, some 6000 or 7000 hectares of that land is already in hand. The anticipated requirement is approximately 20 000 hectares. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-Net plantable area. The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW-I cannot answer that, but the figures I have given are accurate. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-With respect, they are not; they relate to net plantable areas. The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW -The point to be emphasised is that 20 000 hectares is a small area compared to the 6 million hectares used as pasture in Victoria. I am not attempting to minimise the size of the human problem recounted by Mr Hallam and Mrs Tehan in terms of the effect on individual land-holders and rural communities. However, it must be borne in mind that we are talking about some 20 000 hectares, which is small compared with the 6 million hectares currently used for agriculture. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Why don't you compare like with like and compare it with the available land that meets the requirements for pine plantations? The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW - The types of restrictions applying to land suitable for pines-adequate rainfall, smooth terrain and good soil-make it likely that the land has already been converted into grazing and pasture land. It is not, therefore, surprising that good land is being sought for the purpose of growing pines. 424 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

Mention has been made ofthe State Plantations Impact Study. It is my understanding that a steering committee is examining some of the social problems that are involved in this matter. The committee will do that and then make suggestions to ~overnment. It was not given a term of reference to enable it to suggest planting pInes on land cleared for public forest because that is against government policy; however, possibilities exist and the government is sympathetic to any proposals that can be made with respect to the future use of agroforestry, sharefarming and other private planting schemes which may well reduce the problem. I point out that the problem is not confined to government-farmer interaction. A similar problem exists in the Otways area south of the province I represent where difficulties arise between private pine plantation companies and farmers. The problems highlighted today are not new to me; I have heard them from people in that area. The problem is deserving of consideration, and I hope it is sorted out. I would not be happy if the government backed away from its commitment to retain native bush in its present form. Mrs Tehan has suggested other possibilities. If they are viable, the government will consider them. Mr Hallam referred to the unfairness involved in the amount of money the government is prepared to pay for land. It is my clear understanding that the government is restrained in any purchase of private land by the valuation of the land by the Valuer-General. That is very clear. I also ask Mr Hallam to remember that the government has a target of a 4 per cent return on funds, so it can consider only viable propositions. Mr Hallam talked about the social impact and said that each sale means a loss to families in the community. My understanding in the Otways area is that when land is originally bought there is some loss to the community, but over the years, as the land comes into production, the capacity to support members of the local community is increased by pine plantation. Therefore, In the longer term it may not be such a problem as is being stated. Mr Hallam used the term "mongrel scrub". There are dangers there because much of the so-called mongrel scrub would not support pine plantations. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-That is the whole point of the argument. The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW-It may be, but you would need to be able to show that it was within the area required for satisfaction of industry demand. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-I could do so with no problem, Mr Henshaw. The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW-In short, the importance of the principle of conservation of native forest and the ecological system contained therein is fundamental to the government and, we believe, to the community, and on that basis I oppose the motion moved by Mr Hallam. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-I really do despair sometimes, particularly after I hear contributions such as we have just heard from Mr Henshaw, and to think that a man with such little understanding was chairman ofthe ALP policy committee and came up with the policy that this State is now lumbered with! He has so little understanding and has demonstrated today the shallowness of his understanding. Mr Henshaw talked about retaining native bush and suggested that the National Party, for some reason, wanted to tear down all the native bush in this State. He then tried to swing it around and talked about how little area is needed for pines. He cannot have it both ways and say that the National Party will destroy all the bush and then Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 425 say only 25 000 hectares are needed, anyway. That is the argument Mr Henshaw put today and it was a total contradiction in terms. No suggestion has been put by Mr Hallam that the National Party wants to destroy every vestige of native bush in this State. Mr Henshaw then took up Mr Hallam's comment about mongrel scrub and asked what Mr Hallam meant by that. I will tell Mr Henshaw what Mr Hallam meant by mongrel scrub. He meant the thousands of hectares in the electorate that I represent of degraded bush that will never produce a millable log in its life. Mr Hallam is not suggesting that all of that should be cleared, either. All he is suggesting is that some of it ought to be used to meet the legislative requirements-25 000 hectares out of the millions that we have. There are thousands in my electorate and thousands in Mr Hallam's electorate and elsewhere in this State. I invite honourable members to look at a couple of other matters that Mr Henshaw raised. He tried to say that farmers have destroyed million of acres of forest and woodland since 1869. I saw a statement put out by the former Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands some time ago and a map which purported to show large areas of land that had been cleared in Victoria. What did the Minister compare that with? The Minister compared it with the 1987 figure of forests in this State. I suggest there is a vast difference in definition between woodland in 1869 and forests in 1987. If Mr Henshaw wants some information on what the vegetation in this State was like last century, I suggest he goes to Gherig's Winery in Barnawatha where, on the wall, there is a large map published by the Colonial Government of Victoria and dated 1864. It outlines the state of vegetation in the Colony of Victoria in 1864. Vast areas of the map are labelled "open plain country". I suggest that open plain country is the definition of woodland that Mr Henshaw is using in his statistics today and he is trying to compare it with what is forest country today and what everyone would deem to be forest country. He is comparing chalk with cheese and that is entirely unfair. I also condemn the former Minister for Conservation, Forest and Lands for trying to pull the wool over the eyes of Victorians last year when she published a map that was clearly wrong. For example, she showed that the area I farm was forested last century. I have records to show that when my ancestors took up the land it was open plain country and they cleared relatively few trees on it; yet, this map showed it as forested. It was a damning attempt by the Minister to mislead the Victorian community and try to make out that wholesale clearing had occurred in this State when in many cases that was not the case. Mr Henshaw also referred to private forest companies in the Otways buying land to plant pines, and he attempted to link that with this argument. There is absolutely no connection. If two private landowners make a transaction to sell the land, that is a commercial transaction open to them to make and the difference that needs to be borne in mind is that the private forest companies do not have any other land on which to plant their pines. They have no option but to go out and buy on the open market, unless the government takes up the worthy suggestion of Mr Hallam. The government owns millions ofhectares-- The Hon. D. E. Henshaw-Who owns it? The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-The government controls it. The government has plenty of opportunity to plant pines on land which it controls and to which it has access. The private landowners do not have that option and therefore need to enter into purchase arrangements made on the open market. Who can complain about that? 426 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

Havin~ disposed of the arguments ofMr Henshaw, I move to my main contribution. The NatIonal Party is not opposed to planting softwoods in this State. We have supported in this Parliament, as has the Labor Party when it was in opposition, legislation which has guaranteed to certain companies that pine logs would be made available for years into the future. An Act was passed in 1967 and others in the 1970s in this reFd. I remember when our former colleague, the Honourable Jock Granter, was Miruster for Forests. At that time a couple of Bills were passed through this Parliament which made contractual arrangements to supply pine logs in the future and I do not believe for one moment that Parliament, at the time those Acts were passed, anticipated or envisaged that those logs would be supplied entirely from private land. The assumption at that time was that by and large those plantations would be undertaken on government controlled land, Crown land. There has been a big turnaround from what was the intention of our predecessors when they entered into those agreements. However, there is no suggestion that the National Party is in any way opposed to the softwood industry. I shall illustrate that by referring to the north-eastern area of the State and demonstrating what a valuable income generator it is for the community. Not only is some $10 million paid annually in wages to workers directly employed in the region, but the softwood industry purchases goods and contracts services to a value of approximately $14 million to $15 million each year, or up to $21 million if one includes Albury, which is just across the River Murray. Clearly pines are an important income generator and part of the economy in the area of Victoria I represent, and I want it on the record that the National Party is a strong supporter of the industry and will continue to be so. However, the National Party is concerned about the government's policy that all future planting of pines will be on acquired land and, more so as the policy seems to come to pass, that the acquired land will mainly be high quality farming land. I take up a point Mr Henshaw made in a dispute he had with Mr Hallam by way of interjection regarding what areas were being acquired. He endeavoured to make the point that as little as possible land was being acquired. If Mr Henshaw examined the ~overnment's own document, the State Plantations Impact Study, he would have seen In that study that by March 1988 125 000 hectares were currently planted to pines and the increase required to meet the 1996 target is 27 300 hectares. Those figures represent the net ylantable area. The total area finally needed will be somewhat greater as a result 0 factors such as stream side reserves, swampy areas, areas of retained or planted native species, internal roading and so on. The point Mr Hallam made, by way of interjection, was that Mr Henshaw's figures were not borne out by the government's own document and that Mr Henshaw should find the time to study it. I shall concentrate on the area that I know best, the north­ east region of Victoria. The area planted to pines up to March 1988 was 44 700 hectares and the target by 1996 is 57 500 hectares, so it can be seen that a very significant percentage increase will be required in that relatively short term if the government is to meet the target set by the timber industry strategy. The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-How much is on private land? The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Very little of the existing plantations are on private land. The government's policy will mean that almost the total increase of pine plantings, to reach the target by 1996, will be on former private land. Honourable members should bear in mind that much of north-eastern Victoria is forested land owned by the Crown, which means that a significant percentage of the private land in north­ eastern Victoria and more particularly the very fertile valley floors will be up for grabs by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 427

Australia, as an agricultural exporting nation, cannot afford to go on changing land use to that extent. My opposition to the acquiring of private land is not only on behalf of the localities that are being directly affected for all the reasons mentioned by Mr Hallam and Mrs Tehan, the social impacts it has on the particular communities and so on, but is also for the community at large, because the community needs to remember that Australia is an agricultural exporting nation. It relies very heavily on agricultural exports to underpin its high standard of living. The trade deficit figures announced yesterday were the worst March figures ever­ $1-63 billion in the red. Imagine how much worse those figures would be if commodity prices were not at the level they are at present-in particular, for wool, which provided $6 billion in export income returns this year; meat, where the prices are fairly good; and wheat, where the price is improving. Imagine being in the situation Australia was in in the past-and I regret may be in the future-where commodity prices are not near those levels. The trading balance of the nation will be too frightening to contemplate. The government's policy will lessen Australia's ability to export high quality products because it will buy up valuable grazing land and plant pines on that land. Mr Hallam rightly emphasised, as I have done so many times in this Chamber, that the constant urban sprawl is also chewing up some of Victoria's most fertile land. Honourable members may ask whether the planting of pines is the best and highest use for this land. Let us examine the economic arguments. If pine plantings were the best economic use of the land for the nation's overall good I would have some trouble contesting that argument, but that cannot be deduced in this case. I refer honourable members to the property purchased by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands in the Tallangatta Valley known as the Bosse property. It was the purchase of that property that generated the ill feeling and blockades and directly led to the development of the pine impact study, because of the concerns of people in the area, led by Mr Stuart Morant. I pay tribute to Mr Morant. It is a great advantage to have leaders in the community-people like him-who are able to put a logical argument, marshal their forces and arguments in a reasonable and constructive manner, and attempt to change government policy. Mr Morant has not changed government policy yet but he is well on the way, and I commend him for it. Figures on the annual gross contribution of various commodities were compiled for the Bosse property. Pinus radiata would return $252.81; dairying, which is what the property had been used for, would return $541.81; beef cattle would return $271.61; and fine wool production would return $640. Those figures were prepared by an accountant who is very practised in making those sorts of analyses; they will stand up to scrutiny. That is the proof of the pudding; the purchase of the land was not designed for the best and highest use from the community's point of view, even without taking into account the other issues that arise. That issue should be taken into account. The planting of pines is not the best use for highly fertile land in the Tallangatta Valley. Mr Davidson, in replying to Mr Hallam's interjection, said that the National Party is in favour of the land being compulsorily acquired rather than being acquired at open auction. The National Party is not in favour of that, but in fact the effect is just the same. The government sent as its stooge on 4 August 1987 someone who was wearing an Akubra hat and moleskins and who bid for the property. The department had done an assessment of the property before the auction, which is quite proper, and it made the calculations that are in a document dated 27 July 1987 that I obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The document says among other things that the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands can afford to pay up to about 428 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

$902000 for the property and achieve an internal rate of return of 5 per cent on softwood production. The department can afford to pay $902 000; it was the highest bidder at auction, and the price was about $680 000. The department had a large amount in its pocket. The Hon. R. M Hallam-Some 4 per cent. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Yes, 4 per cent. The House heard from Mr Henshaw that refuge could be taken because the government pays only up to the valuation set by the Valuer-General. What use is that if the assessment is above the open market price in any event, which is the situation in this case? There is no protection for the local farmers in that system. What hope does a neighbour or an outsider or anyone interested in the Bosse property have when the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands decides that it can afford to pay $902 000 for it, yet the open market decides on a price of$680 OOO? No-one else had any hope of buying the property. It was a de facto compulsory acquisition, if that is the way Mr Davidson wants to put it. It made no difference. The department came and decided to buy it at whatever price! What has hap~ned? The Shire ofTallangatta has naturally become concerned. Its rate revenue is $750000 and it estimates that if the timber Industry strategy targets are to be achieved by 1996, the amount of land to be acquired will cost $70000 in lost rates. In other words, $70 000 of a total rate revenue of $750 000 will go out the window because the government will be acquiring land for pines, and will not be paying rates. What about the Tallangatta Valley school? It is under threat and will close. Already three families have left the valler because of the sale of their properties. The department has every intention of continuIng to buy other properties unless the policies can be changed; the letter referred to describes another property which would have been eminently suitable, but it could not be bought because on that occasion the Treasurer did not gIve the department a cheque in time. The purchase was not pursued because of lack offunds. That was very fortuitous so far as the Tallangatta Valley school was concerned. The Hon. G. R. Crawford-Saved by the bell. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Yes, saved by the bell. The Bullioh school at the bottom of the valley was closed this year because of lack of enrolments. What will happen ifthe Tallangatta Valley school closes? The few remaining children will become very isolated and will face a long trip by bus to another school in Tallangatta. What about the volunteer fire brigade? The Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands relies very heavily in my area-and, I would expect, throughout Victoria­ on volunteer Country Fire Authority officers in firefighting situations. Farmers and local residents do not complain about that, and are prepared to make that contribution to the community. Few people will be left to provide that service, and those left will be a little more reluctant to do so than people were in the past if they observe the denuding of their population as a direct result of actions and purchases of the department. Without that assistance, firefighting resources would be severely stretched. What about the school bus routes? They will fall apart if there are insufficient rates to maintain the roads. A totally unnecessary downward spiral is created. There is much land that is suitable for planting of pines but which is not prime agricultural land. Not only the mongrel scrub, as Mr Hallam called it, or the de~ded mixed species scrub, as I call it, could be used, but also there is suitable pnvately Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 429 owned land in the area that could be used for the planting of pines. Some areas at the heads of the valleys that should not have been cleared for farming by our ancestors are quite suitable for growing pines. Those areas meet the parameters outlined by Mr Henshaw and Mr Hallam as to rainfall, slope and the like. Why is the purchase of that land not being addressed? I know that the Minister will say that the valley floor will grow pines more quickly. A man with a cork eye could have told the government that, but now the government has discovered it! One has to take into account what is the best economic return from that land for the community; and despite the fact that pines may grow a little more slowly on the lesser quality land, that is probably the best means of producing the highest return from that land; certainly the way of producing the best return is not by putting the pines on the valley floors. The community has to come to grips with that problem and decide where pines should be planted in the best interests of the community and the economy at large. Many areas would meet those parameters without causin$ the heartache that is being experienced at the moment because of the government amving with a large cheque book and buying the prime agricultural land. As an ex~rting nation and as a community, Victoria simply cannot afford to have that continue at the present rate. I make a plea: in cases where the department has bought land and is establishing pine plantations, the government ought to do the decent thing by neighbours and the municipality and agree to contribute half the cost of the divisional fencing, and it should continue to pay rates on that property because the government is the same as any other commercial operator; it is generating income from that land with its pine plantation. If the land were owned by a timber company or a private individual, the proprietor would be obliged to pay half the cost of the fences under the Fences Act and would receive an annual rate assessment. Why should the government escape the liability to pay rates on land on which it operates a commercial enterprise-to wit, a softwood plantation? The govel1lment has a moral obligation to amend the law or do whatever is necessary to overcome that glaring anomaly and injustice both to immediate neighbours and to the municipalities concerned. I make a further plea: as Mr Hallam said, the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands is exempt from the requirements of the Plannin~ and Environment Act, although I understand that the Act has been discovered to be lnvalid. However, I shall assume for the moment that the Act will maintain its force. Despite strenuous action by you, Mr President, and others in this House to have the Crown bound by that Act when it was being debated in this House, there has been a total exemption for certain departments, including the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. That has put the department in a privileged position. To demonstrate by example: the Shire ofOxley, situated south ofWangaratta, had some land that was previously a farm acquired by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands to be used, presumably, for the planting of pines, although I am unsure of the ultimate purpose of the purchase. The HOD. R. M. Hallam-The department may not be sure either. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-No, it may not be sure. The department has decided that there is an area in that acquisition, including some buildings, that it does not require, so it is subdividing the land and selling the blocks. I do not object to that course but, if the department wants to be a land developer in the ordinary sense of the words, and delve into subdivision, why should it not be required to obtain the same permits that any private operator or individual would be required to obtain in those circumstances? 430 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

The department is creating a substandard subdivision at least in the eyes of the Shire of Oxley, since the municipality has no power to stipulate any requirements under the provisions of the Planning and Environment Act because the department is not required to obtain any permits or to consult with any of the various referral authorities. That is another example of injustice from the Crown, which is in a privileged position. In conclusion I am concerned about the policy of the government in the planting of pines and its refusal to consider planting them on Crown land. We must not blame the Ferguson report. It was not Professor Ferguson who said this should not be done. It is the timber industry strategy that is to blame. That strategy is ALP policy. I do not want it thought that Professor Ferguson was somehow the generator of this misguided policy. The Hon. B. T. Pullen-Is it so bad for the government to have a policy? The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-It is not bad for the government to have a policy but it is bad for the government to have a bad policy-and this policy is bad! The State Plantations Impact Study's terms of reference should have been wider so that some of these issues could have been addressed. The terms of reference were not wide enough, as Mr Hallam and Mrs Tehan have demonstrated to the House, because they completely excluded consideration of the planting of pines on Crown land. I cannot understand how a study can be credible or viable if it is denied the opportunity of putting across a point of view about the most appropriate location for the planting of pines to meet the 1996 target. The recommendations of the impact study will be deficient and to some degree worthless because of that restriction on the breadth of the inquiry. I have told the inquiry that on a couple of occasions. I think members of the inquiry probably believe that, too, but they are required to operate within their terms of reference and are entirely hamstrung. To some extent, the inquiry has become a total waste of time. I am pleased to support the motion. It has widespread support in the community. It makes no suggestion of any curtailing of the planting of pines. No suggestion is made on this side of the House that there should be planting of pines on areas that grow good hardwood forests or are in pristine natural condition. The request is for logic to be applied to the argument and for pines to be planted on the most appropriate land, whether that be private or public land. The Hon. R. J. LONG (Gippsland Province)-I strongly support and congratulate Mr Hallam for bringing forward this motion. I speak on behalf of people in the Gippsland South area. I shall paint a picture of a farmer in the Gippsland South area carrying on a farming operation. The Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands comes along and purchases the property next door to him and plants pine on it. The first problem that arises is the need for new fencing, something that was totally unexpected and unplanned by the farmer. The next problem is the ragwort menace that appears on the property next door. One has to see the ragwort menace in Gippsland South to believe it. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-The problem is also in the Otways. The Hon. R. J. LONG-I am speaking about the area I know. The department is doing nothing about ragwort. It talks about it and it has plans to do something about it but it never gets around to it. Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 431

The next thing that happens is that the ragwort infestation spreads to the farmer's property and he has to make up his mind whether to leave that property. That situation is facing a lot of people because of the government's policy of planting pines. Earlier this year the Shire of Alberton requested the government to postpone the further purchase of land for pine plantations until an inquiry in the Tallangatta Valley had been completed. That seemed a fairly sensible approach to the problem but the government refused point blank to do so. A few days ago the government purchased a property at Carrajung Lower in Gippsland South for the purpose of planting pines. That information was reported in the Yarram Standard News of 12 April. Through what is known as the Softwood Planting Advisory Committee the government was supposed to tell the Shire of Alberton that it proposed to purchase land to enable discussions to take place before the actual purchase. The Shire of Alberton sent a hasty letter to the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands about the matter. The local newspaper reports that the government bought 127 hectares of prime dairy land and 81·5 hectares of lesser quality land for $475000, less than $1000 an acre for the total area. The mortgagee's auction of the land was attended by 75 people and 7 bidders wrangled for the property, which was passed in at $425 000. It was later purchased by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands for an extra $50 000. No trouble to the government; it had plenty of money. I find the Minister's reply to the shire secretary fascinating: Dear Mr Stephens The Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands, the Hon. Kay Setches MP, has asked me to thank you for your letter of 7 April regarding the purchase last Wednesday by this department of a property at Carrajung formerly owned by a Mr Fyffe. As I believe the department's regional manager at Yarram, Mr Ken King, has indicated to you, it was not planned to plant this property until the 1990 planting season. I do not know what that has to do with it, but we are told it will not be planted for another twelve months. The article continues: In the interim, the State Plantations Impact Study will have reported and its findings considered by the government. Final decisions on all unplanted purchased properties will be made in the light of the government's response to the study's recommendations. So the department is purchasing 516 acres of land with no guarantee that it will be planted in pines, because it has to await the recommendations of the impact study. However, this is the fascinating part: If a decision is made not to use a particular property or portion thereof for hardwood or softwood plantation purposes, it is expected that that parcel ofland would be offered for sale by public auction. So that is the merry-go-round. The government has not made up its mind yet what it will plant, and yet it has purchased land. The fact that it is continuing to purchase land before obtaining the recommendations from the study suggests to me that the study is a charade. How else could one approach it? Could one believe that the government is continuing to buy land if it thought there was a possibility that it would not plant it out to pines? That fact concerns me greatly, and that is why I take pleasure in supporting Mr Hallam's motion. In the Shire of Alberton a large amount of land is being purchased by the government, and the rating capability of the shire is being lessened each time. Sooner or later the government will have to subsidise the Shire of Alberton for the loss of this rateable property. One cannot just keep on taking away without putting back; and, as I say, 432 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting one has to start making some money available to the department so that it can attack the ragwort problem. Unless something is done pretty smartly about the ragwort problem, it will worsen. The biggest problem with ragwort is that the government does not understand it. It is a weed that has a prolific growth rate. It will take over a property in a short space of time, so it requires constant attention. I have written to the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands about the problems of ragwort in the Gippsland area, but I have not received a reply. All I received was an acknowledgment. The biggest problem of the ragwort menace in Gippsland is caused by land that is planted in pines. The government hopes the pines will grow up quickly and cover and kill the ragwort. That takes time and in the meantime a "beautiful" yellow flower grows. I implore the government to do something about the problem before it is too late. The ragwort menace must be attacked. The Hon. D. R. White-It certainly has in Goldstein! The Hon. R. J. WNG-I am trying to be serious, Minister. The Hon. D. R. White-So am I! The Hon. R. J. LONG-That is far from serious in comparison to the problems with which we are dealing. The Hon. D. R. White-What does he mean? Which problem is worse? The Hon. R. J. LONG-In 1982 the government did away with inspectors. Prior to that inspectors were going around farms and getting onto the backs of farmers and forcing them to do something about ragwort; inspectors would prosecute farmers or, even further than that, would carry out the work and place a charge on the land, but that is all gone. The present government just ignores it, closes its eyes and hopes the problem will go away, but it will not go away. The government must come back to the real world and try to attack the ragwort menace. As I said earlier, I am delighted that Mr Hallam moved the motion. I support it wholeheartedly. The Hon. JEAN McLEAN (Boronia Province)-My colleague Mr Henshaw touched on some of the reasons for the government not contemplating chan$ing its policy on not clearing native forests, based on the nature of the land acquisition program and on the State Plantations Impact Study now under way. It is interesting that this debate is taking place at a time when the ecological effect of everything we do in our forests is of great importance to the public at large and, these days, is being watched worldwide. If previous governments had adopted a rational approach to the balanced use of public land for pine plantations in this State the Victorian government and the public might not have felt so strongly about this issue and this policy. It has often been said that there are plenty of native forests of low conservation value available such as scrub and degraded bush. I often find the term "degraded" surprising; in fact, it means that it is natural and unspoilt and the idea is that such land could be cleared for pines without detriment to the environment. Several points should be made in response to such claims. Many people assume that low timber value equates with low conservation value, and this can be erroneous. Native forests of low timber value can and often do possess significant ecological values. Even if such land were to have low flora and fauna values, these values could still have a significantly higher value than that of turning it into a pine estate. Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 433

I should like to discuss some aspects of the use of freehold grazing land for plantations. Many people have argued that the improvement to our trade deficit of $1·6 billion annually, in forest products, to which the plantation expansion program is expected to contribute, will be at the expense of agricultural exports and so may not represent an overall improvement to our terms of trade at all. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Tell us why not! The Hon. JEAN McLEAN-The government is looking to the State Plantations Impact Study to comment on this issue. However, a few other remarks are appropriate. Market forces are a fair guide to relative economic benefit and, if wool or beef were the highest value uses for the land, one would expect the department to be unable to compete with the farmers in purchasing this land. In some instances this is, indeed, the case. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-On a point of order, Mr President, I know Standing Orders provide for the use of copious notes but, unless Mrs McLean is able to answer my interjections when I ask a question, I suggest she should not read her speech. The Hon. Jean McLean-1 am not supposed to have to answer your interjections! The PRESIDENT-Order! I have been watching Mrs McLean. It appears that her reference to copious notes has developed into reading a speech. I ask her to observe the proprieties of the House. The Hon. JEAN McLEAN (Boronia Province)-By no means has the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands managed to buy all the land that it has been looking at over the past few years. It has been successful in buying only two-thirds of the properties that have been offered to it. Many of those properties were rejected as being unsuitable. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-So what? The Hon. JEAN McLEAN-So the department has not bought all that land! Only 20 000 hectares net of cleared land is being considered by the department, and that land represents only 2 per cent of the State's pastures. Some members opposite are suggesting that the government will, somehow or other, take over all available grazing land; but the area of land that is being considered is only small. The potential exists to increase the pastoral productivity of such land. The government intends to provide $1·8 million over the next three years for research into promoting the pastoral productivity of land in low production areas. The government's economic strategy on agriculture will assist the realising of that potential and will not contribute simply to the growing of pines. Given that the productivity of a great deal of Victorian pasture land is substantially below its known potential and often below what has been achieved in the past, the provision of research funding will be of great value to the attempts to increase agricultural productivity. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-So your government is cutting back on agricultural research-great stum The Hon. JEAN McLEAN-The government is saying that it is making more money available for agricultural-- The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Is that why the government has closed the Kyabram research station? 434 COUNCIL 19 Apri11989 Pine Planting

The Hon. JEAN McLEAN-The concerns which members opposite have expressed about the social and community impacts of the program on certain areas have not been borne out by many of the studies that the department is undertaking. Those matters are being addressed and an impact study is being undertaken. Farms that are placed on the market are often offered willingly to the government for purchase. Honourable members should realise that, when the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands buys such land, it often seeks to excise the house and a small section of surrounding land to allow the vendors to stay in the area while their land is used for growing pines. The environmental impacts are being examined in the department's plantation study. Special attention is being given to the problem of the use of chemicals and weed control. The need for chemicals and for weed control in plantations is much less than if the land were used for other purposes. It has been argued that the growing of pine plantations on former freehold grazing land will increase fire hazards because of the depletion of local rural fire brigades. In many cases, the capacity of those local fire brigades has been increased because of the additional staff who move into the area. All those matters are being considered as part of the department's environmental impact study, and the government looks forward to receiving-- The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-On a point of order, Mr President: I do not mind when honourable members make extensive use of notes so long as those notes are clearly their own. Mrs McLean's speech has clearly been written by an officer of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. I do not believe honourable members should have to listen to a speech being read in the rote fashion that Mrs McLean is reading it. The Hon. JEAN McLEAN (Boronia Province)-On the point of order, Mr President: I am a member of the conservation, forests and lands subcommittee. That subcommittee is examining the proposition that only public land should be used for the growing of pine plantations and whether it is necessary to buy private land at market prices to enable the establishment of further pine plantations. That is what my speech is about. The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province)-On the point of order, Mr President: Mrs McLean's reply to Mr Baxter bore absolutely no relation to his specific point of order. It is clear to every honourable member that Mrs McLean is reading verbatim a lengthy typed speech. Mr President, I ulle you to uphold the point of order raised by Mr Baxter-that is, that Mrs McLean either makes her own speech or at least acknowledges who wrote the speech that she is reading. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-Despite what the Standing Orders say, honourable members read from notes on numerous occasions. On many occasions I have listened to honourable members reading out a series of press releases and letters while appearing to make a speech. Licence has been afforded them on those occasions. I believe Mrs McLean is using notes to speak on a complicated issue. Therefore, I believe she is entitled to refer to those notes. The PRESIDENT-Order! Standing Orders make it plain that honourable members rilust make their own speeches and that they must not read speeches. If that were possible, speeches could be prepared for honourable members and one would never know whether what was being said were their own comments or those of someone outside the Chamber. Exceptions are made in the case of Ministerial second-reading speeches and lead speeches on complicated issues where accuracy is of particular importance. Even in Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 435 the case of speeches other than Ministerial second-reading speeches, it is expected that honourable members prepare their own speeches. There is no doubt that Mrs McLean has been reading her speech. She has typescript in front of her, the pages of which she has been turning as each has been completed. As a result ofa previous point of order, Mrs McLean was asked to desist from reading and to make her own speech. She has made it plain that she is on the policy committee in question and she has shown, in speaking to the point of order, that she has personal knowledge of the matter. Mrs McLean should therefore be able, from her personal knowledge, to complete her speech without more than reference to notes, and certainly without reading her speech. The Hon. JEAN McLEAN (Boronia Province)-I have all but completed my speech. I reiterate that the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands has done a great deal of work to try to balance the needs of the timber industry with the needs of the farming community. It has tried to restore a balance that has been lost because, during the past 150 years, we have all but destroyed huge sections of our native forests, mainly in a completely mindless way for the profits of very few. We are still in a situation where much of our native forests and good timber have been woodchipped. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Where? The Hon. JEAN McLEAN-All around the country. I saw some examples of it in Eden. A stronger program is needed to protect our land. Not only have I seen a lot of badly degraded farmland but also I have seen land that could be better used growing pines. It has been suggested that in many cases eucalypts could be grown. Certainly fragile land should not be continually overused. I commend these propositions to the House because we must come to terms with the fact that we must reduce the amount of timber used in secondary products such as paper and we must learn a way to do that without destroying our fauna, our flora and in fact creating the nightmare of the greenhouse effect and the degradation of our natural heritage. The Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland Province)-I support Mr Hallam's motion. In my contribution to the debate I represent the views of constituents in the southern part of my province, particularly the people of the Alberton, Mirboo and Gippsland South shires who have been significantly affected by the matters being debated. I repeat what has already been mentioned by Mr Baxter and Mr Hallam: the National Party, and certainly the people I represent, fully support the motion in that the State does need extensive areas offorest, both hardwood and softwood. We do not condemn the necessity for the further expansion of softwood and hardwood plantations in Victoria. That is a positive policy. Today I spoke for several hours with. people from the forest industry in Sweden, which is recognised as one of the foremost countries in for~st industry management. Currently forests are being expanded in that country. The issue is not so much a matter of how much but where such plantations are sited. It is true that in my electorate many areas of the Strzelecki Ranges have been badly managed and wrongly cleared in years past. Many areas of the ranges should never have been cleared of forest because they are now unproductive farming areas. I support the efforts of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands to reforest those areas of the Strzelecki Ranges. Any farmland that is marginal or under­ utilised should be put to better effect. We live in a country that is short of arable land 436 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting in many areas. It is important that the land that is available is put to the most economically competitive use and if that is pines, so be it; we have no argument with that. As Mr Long stated, within the past two weeks the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands bought a property of approximately 208·92 hectares in Carrajung Lower. In purchasing the property the department breached the guidelines set down by the softwood planting advisory commIttee, which was set up by the government. The department did not give prior notice to local government that such a purchase would take place. The guidelines were breached because that land contaIned 127 hectares of prime dairying land. How do we know that? A modem milking shed and a modem brick residence had been built on that 127 hectares. I do not know what the department will do with the modem dairy or the residence but those buildings reveal that the property was a viable dairy farm. The Hon. G. A. SilO-Why did they sell? The Hon. P. R. HALL-The people in country Victoria have sold their land because government policies have increased interest rates. They cannot service loans for amounts such as the $475 000 that was paid by the department to purchase the property. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-From the public purse. The Hon. P. R. HALL-This is not an isolated case; in the Alberton shire extensive purchasing of private land has occurred for use as pine plantations. Less than two years ago 1000 hectares of good grazing land was purchased for pine plantations. The effect of sales of this nature on a community is significant. The price of less than $1000 a hectare is unrealistically undervalued and that means nearby farmers can expect to get only a little more for their properties. The action of the department with its open­ ended budget in buying land such as this is pushing down the prices for neighbouring farmers. Several honourable members have pointed out during the debate that the departme~t is the worst possible neighbour that one may have. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Hear, hear! The Hon. P. R. HALL-The department does not pay any fencing costs and it does not control vermin. It has also been pointed out that its lands provide havens for noxious weeds to spread throughout the community. It has been mentioned before today that ragwort is an enormous problem and the department has done little to tidy up its own backyard. It has also been mentioned that the social and economic effects of pine plantations in country areas mean that schools are under threat. Mr Baxter said that the schools in the Tallangatta Valley are under threat because of the number of families that have been forced to move away from the area. In the Alberton shire eleven small primary schools have been forced to close over the past 30 years. Many of these have been directly affected by the farmers and their families moving away from the area because their land has been purchased for pine plantations. That has caused an upheaval in the lives of many children in the area I represent. It has also -been pointed out that the pine plantations are poor neighbours because not 1 cent in municipal rates is paid on that land. In addition, they do not contribute 1 cent to local road maintenance. The Mirboo shire, which is a very small shire, has been marginally affected and loses $10 000 a year in rate revenue. The Alberton shire currently suffers massive losses of $120 000 a year in rate revenue because of the policy of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands of buying land and not Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 437

paying rates at a time when local councils are finding it hard to meet expenses and Federal grants have been reduced drastically. A loss in rates of$120 000 a year is of major concern to most communities. The subject of road maintenance has been raised consistently in this House and, without exception, country members have pushed for improvements in the level of maintenance funds allocated to municipalities. Once pine plantations are established in an area, the volume of traffic using the roads increases. Log trucks and machinery are wrecking many of the roads in the shire. Many are gravel roads, and heavy machinery on those roads places extra demands on local councils for road maintenance. No contribution towards road maintenance has been received from the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands or from private companies. The Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands plantations in my area largely supplies APM, which is a private enterprise; ratepayers in South Gippsland are subsidising private enterprise. As the motion says, adequate areas of public land are available for pine plantations. There is no necessity for a wholesale policy of buying up freehold land for that purpose. It does not make sense that the government is expending a large amount of taxpayers' money on purchasing freehold land when adequate public land is available. The Alberton shire faces up to these problems and makes positive suggestions and contributions which the government should perhaps adopt. In a report which the shire has submitted to the government, it has identified 4400 hectares of Crown land within the shire alone which would be suitable for pine plantations. Even the Land Conservation Council, in its publication of November 1982 entitled Final Recommendations South Gippsland Area District 2 identified 3000 hectares of this 4400 hectares as suitable for softwood plantations. So the government's body has suggested that 3000 hectares of the land could be used for pine plantations without encroaching on land used for agricultural purposes. The local council has also identified an additional 1400 hectares, which contains some native forest areas, as verified by Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands officers in the region, that would be suitable for pines. This native forest is diseased by a fungus known as "Pc" or cinnamon fungus and it will never produce a commercially viable hardwood forest. I am informed that softwood is not affected by this fungus. This dormant and deteriorating native forest area of 1400 hectares will never be of any use, aesthetically or economically, and could well be used for the planting of pines. I do not think the loss of 1400 hectares would significantly affect the animal or bird population in the area. As a positive contribution the Alberton shire has identified that 4400 hectares of land as suitable for pines, which goes a long. way towards meeting the target in the South Gippsland area. I speak only for the area I represent but I am sure my colleagues, who are familiar with their own electorates, know of similar examples. I urge the House to pass the motion and stop wasting taxpayers' money on purchasing freehold land and to make use of the Crown land that is already available. I also suggest that the people I represent would want councils to be consulted prior to every purchase offreehold land. That requirement has not been adhered to and the example I submitted to honourable members proved that. I also believe the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands should be obliged to pay rates to local councils for at least the first two years after the acquisition of land has taken place. In addition, the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands should contribute to the cost of local road maintenance. 438 COUNCIL 19 Apri11989 Pine Planting

Finally, I suggest the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands should show neighbouring farmers the courtesy and respect of which they are indeed worthy. The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne North Province)-A few months ago I was indirectly involved in a blockade at the Tallangatta Valley. Half the people in that blockade were my relatives so I somehow became indirectly involved. I even received a few telephone calls at 3 o'clock in the morning. Mr Hallam's motion is somewhat hypocritical. Mr Hall's argument was not entirely against pine plantations but he believed the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands must pay rates and fix roads. If they come up with the goods, in Mr Hall's words, it will be all right. Mr Hall objected to the land purchases because the purchasers were not paying rates and therefore the local people had to find extra money. I agree with that. I think the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands should pay some rates and road maintenance. Honourable members will agree with that point but how on earth can the National Party, the free enterprise party, do anything when people want to sell their land at the best price? I attend many auctions in the country where a farmer who wants to sell land cannot sell without government participation because some of the farmers in the area cannot find the money or do not want to pay the asking price. So the government operates in the free market in which it believes. The government bought that land at auction. Because the farmer wanted the highest price he could $et, the land was sold at auction and all of a sudden many people became anti-p1ne, anti-forest, anti­ everything, because many people cannot obtain the price they want for their land. The same people that Mr Hallam and Mr Baxter mentioned today want to sell their property and purchase another because they have y'0ung children and their property 1S not large enough to provide a living for their famllies. What occurred in the Tallangatta Valley in the example Mr Baxter mentioned was that three or four farmers barricaded the man and did not allow him to sell his property on the free market. In other words, that farmer and a few others in the area were forced to stay on their properties and suffer the consequences of the actions of a few people in the area who have so-called anti-pine plantation feelings. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-I do not think that is a fair assessment. The Hon. G. A. SGRO-It is true. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-But you came to the meeting with me. The Hon. G. A. SGRO-Yes, I did. I also visited a few houses on my own. In 1981-82 in the province represented by Mr Baxter, before the government legislated to prevent people clearing land on inclines as steep as 45 degrees, the people of the area went mad. They cleared every little hill in the area before the legislation was introduced. What occurred around the Tallangatta Valley not far from the Hume weir was that, because all the hills and mountains had been cleared, at the first rainfall the soil that had been disturbed was washed into the weir. The mud in the weir is about a foot deep because of the madness of clearing every bit of hillside. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Who measured that? The Hon. G. A. SGRO-In fact, some of my relatives did. One farmer in the area cleared all the hillsides around his property. He had his house underneath the hill. The Hon. K. M. Smith-What? Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 439

The Hon. G. A. SGRO-Mr Smith should not be smart. The farmer had his house at the foot of the hill. The Hon. K. M. Smith-That's better. The Hon. G. A. SGRO-On the occasion of the first heavy rainfall, the water ran down the hill, took all the soil with it and the soil ended up Inside his house. It cost him many thousands of dollars to clean up the house and, in the end, he had to move. That demonstrates the stupidity of the argument that it is useless to try to plant trees there. It may be useless to some people, but it is not useless to the birds and the wildlife of this State and to soil conservation. On many occasions I have heard Mr Baxter speak about soil conservation and the salinity in the rivers and streams in the country, and saying we must protect the soil. These problems are being created by tree clearing. The more land and hills we clear, the more soil washes into the weirs, rivers and creeks. Mr Baxter said that the hills in the Tallangatta Valley in north-eastem Victoria would be suitable for the plantin~ of pines. Of course they would be suitable, but what would be the consequences of dIsturbing the soil? The soil, the salt and the rest of it would wash away and tremendous problems would be created. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-There is no salt up there. The Hon. G. A. SGRO-It is interesting that Mr Baxter makes that comment because it was not so long ago that he criticised the Minister responsible because the government did not spend enough money on salinity control. It is true that those hills could be used to grow pines but, if one dIsturbs the soil and the existing trees-which are scrubby, I agree-the consequences for the soil, the forestry, and future life will be extremely serious. It really disturbs me that, on the one hand, people say they believe in free enterprise and the free market but, on the other hand, on many occasions they try to prevent farmers from obtaining the best price they can for their properties. Probably the only way they could get the prices they want so that they can purchase other properties and make a better living for themselves and their families is through forestry. The same people who would not be prepared to pay the fair market price for such properties now criticise the government because It Intervened, so their argument is not good enough. I have respect for Mr Hall. He has spent almost 90 per cent of his time in the Chamber this afternoon. He criticised the Public Lands and Forests Division of the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands, not because it purchased the land, but because it does not pay rates to the shire offices in the area. The time has come when State governments have to consider seriously the consequences of soil erosion and address soil conservation. I know of at least half a dozen farmers from the Tallangatta Valley who have applied for grants from the government to enable them to plant the types of trees which members of the National Party now say should be cut down. Many farmers applied for many thousands of dollars, and they have received the money. This has occurred because suddenly the farmers are realising the damage that they did by clearing those hills. Many farmers are very good and, with the help of the government and the forestry division, they have become educated and realise that trees are important for their land and for their way of life. Not only do trees protect the land and the water but also they protect animals by providing shelter in the winter. Whenever I visit Tallangatta at least three or four people approach me asking me to 440 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

take them to the Minister so they may make a request for additional money to enable them to plant trees in the hills that they cleared a few years ago. The motion before the House is a disgrace. I believe Mr Hallam and Mr Hall-I have some doubt about Mr Baxter-had some honesty in their arguments, but Mr Baxter knows better. The way in which they have presented their arguments this afternoon suggests they have had two bob each way. They say they want subsidies for farmers to be able to plant trees and a free enterprise system for the sale of land, but when the forestry division moves in and purchases land at auctions, they criticise it for intervening. I cannot say much more than that. If I were able to mention a few names this afternoon, I would do so. I have attended a few auctions in the Tallangatta Valley and witnessed some unusual things. There has often been reference to the way the Mafia operates in this country. When I attended some of the auctions, I saw people intimidating farmers, trying to stop their auctions and telling them that they could not sell their properties. I knew that that sort of thing occurred in other parts of the world, but I could not believe it could occur in this country until I saw it with my own eyes. It hap~ned on two or three occasions where people were stopped from selling their propertIes in the free enterprise market. People wishing to sell their properties want to move somewhere else so that they may purchase larger properties to better cater for their families. The properties in the Tallangatta Valley are usually not large enough for the family. Pine plantations have become a political football. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-I shall circulate copies of this speech to everyone in the area. The Hon. G. A. SGRO-Mr Baxter may do so. I shall also circulate them myself; Mr Baxter need not worry. When farmers have had auction signs placed at the front of their properties, other people have approached them and offered them certain amounts for the properties. The whole problem arises when farmers refuse to sell and express the wish that properties go to auction. It is interesting to note that some of the people who protest against pine plantations have many pine trees on their own farms. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Yes, but not on the valley floor. The Hon. G. A. SGRO-That is true, but I am sure Mr Baxter is aware that the houses and properties on the flatlands of that valley that were purchased by the forestry division are for sale. The forestry division will sell that land again; it will not plant pine trees on the flat land. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Y ou should have a look. They have not started planting, but they have already prepared for it. The Hon. G. A. SGRO-I have seen the properties concerned. The forestry division wants to plant trees on the hills. The land and houses on the flat areas are for sale. They are for sale because when the forestry division bought the property it had to buy the whole lot in one large block. It will not plant trees on the flat areas. I believe the arguments of National Party members are hypocritical because, on the one hand, they say they want free enterprise and that people should be allowed to sell their properties at market value and so on and, on the other hand, if the government or anyone else intervenes to help farmers, they do not think that is good. Therefore, it is hypocritical, and the motion should be rejected. The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-Firstly, I commend my colleague Mr Hallam for his excellently presented motion, and particularly for moving Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 441 an excellently worded and timely motion on this important issue for many parts of country Victoria. I say at the outset that the National Party continues to support the timber industry, an industry that uses renewable resources at a time when there is continuing and increasing concern at the fact that we are using non-renewable resources and the effect that is having on the atmosphere and on the environment generally. The timber industry in Australia has an immense task. As Mr Hallam pointed out this afternoon, our yearly timber import bill is of the order of $1·6 billion. That is exactly the figure announced yesterday as the trade deficit for Australia. The trade deficit hangs like a gloomy cloud over the nation; it leads to the hyperbole from the Federal Treasurer and continues to cause concern that housing interest rates will increase again. That same figure of $1·6 billion is the bill we pay to import timber and timber products, robbing the forests of the rest of the world. We apparently are such bad managers of our own resources that we cannot provide for our 16 or 17 million people. The National Party supports the timber industry and the necessity to grow pinus radiata in Australia. Pines grow quickly and efficiently in our conditions, producing a bulk volume of timber fibre. They are 5, 6 or 7 times as quick in their growth as the mixed species eucalypt forest on a cubic metre per hectare per annum basis. They grow three times as quickly as the fastest naturally growing mountain ash and alpine ash species. From time to time the National Party has supported legislative agreements with major timber companies. In recent years, the National Party has supported two agreements presented by the then Miruster for Conservation, Forests and Lands, now the Minister for EducatIon, between Bowater Ltd at Myrtleford and Dunstan's timber company at Wodonga. Similar agreements have been made with a number of other business firms in Victoria. Australian Paper Manufacturers Ltd in the Gippsland area achieved an amendment to legislation some years ago so that timber supplies could be made available to that company. The government has put offside almost the entire Victorian rural community because of its insensitivity and ham-fisted approach to growing pines to meet the agreements made and the future needs ofVictoria. The government has insisted that only purchased or currently held leased land which has been cleared can be used for pine plantations. The government is compounding the difficulties of a future responsible government, which I hope the next government will be. After the next election, a government comprising of the National Party and the Liberal Party will deal with the issue. The government has aroused passions and concerns in the rural community which will take a considerable time to subside because it has created immense division in the rural community through not understanding the issue and the community. The government has been prepared to ignore commonsense for ideological reasons. As a result, the entire timber industry in Victoria is placed in jeopardy as is any opportunity to reduce the enormous $1·6 billion bill for timber and timber products. Australia will continue to rob the forests of the rest of the world, whether in the Amazon, South-East Asia, New Guinea, or wherever, to meet our timber requirements. The key issue which is the cause of the problem is that the government has decided for ideological and not practical reasons that it will not clear any native vegetation so that pines can be grown. If it were not for that blanket disapproval, there would be a much more sensible and reasonable policy in place, under which it may well be that some areas of private land could be purchased for planting pines. Some areas of government land and land which needs clearing-the so-called "rubbish bush" to 442 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting which Mr Hallam referred-could be used. The passions which have been aroused and the problems which have arisen would not then be present in our community. As I said, the key issues have upset rural communities from one end of Victoria to the other. The community in the Tallangatta Valley to which Mr Sgro referred a few moments ago has been upset. I know that Mr Sgro was one of the members of Parliament who attended a meeting of more than 100 people held at the Tallangatta hall some eighteen months ago. All of those present were concerned and looking to their local members of Parliament to try to talk some sense into the government. Those people did not want to man the barricades or to stand in front of bulldozers and make a nuisance of themselves. They did not want to go through the trauma of being subject to a barrage of questions from the competent Melbourne media. They want to go on leading their lives as farmers. There were more than 100 people in the hall that night. IfMr Sgro had any sympathy for the people he would understand what they were expressing. A deputation came to speak to the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands. I accompanied the deputation, together with my colleagues the honourable member for Benambra in another place and Mr Baxter. The deputation was led by the President of the Victorian Farmers Federation, Mrs Mitchell. All that was achieved was that an inquiry was established. It was to consider the timber industry and its value in the community and the effects, both positive and negative, in an economic sense. The inquiry has been set up under the chairmanship ofCr Pam Robinson of the Shire of Violet Town, and has the assistance of a team from the University of Melbourne. It is interesting to note that a discussion paper was issued shortly after the inquiry was commissioned and, over the signature of Cr Pam Robinson, noted ten different issues that were raised in submissions to the inquiry team. One issue not included in the list was whether the government should use some of its own land and clear some native vegetation to achieve its land requirements and meet its legislative commitments to companies such as Bowater Ltd, Dunstan's and Australian Paper Manufacturers Ltd. In my view, the issue was deliberately not included in the paper circulated. That did not go unnoticed; it was noticed by me and a number of other people and a number of submissions to the inquiry have devoted considerable time to it. I raised the issue in the House and in letters to the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands. The best I could get was a letter from the Minister, dated 8 February 1989, which states: The government's timber industry strategy on which the study is based was developed followina a long period of public consultation and the government does not propose to re-examine the key policies which form the basis of the strategy. Nevertheless, the fourth term of reference allows the steering committee to "identify and report other relevant concerns raised during the course of the study". I put it as simply as this: the Minister was not prepared to include in the terms of reference whether those pines should have been planted on the land the government owns. Why? Because, according to the Minister, there had been extensive consultation and the policy was fixed and could not be changed. If the policy is right, why should it not be investigated? If it is right it will be proved by that inquiry to be right; if it is wrong, it should be corrected. It is as simple as that. A number people made submissions to the inquiry. The Shire of Myrtleford gave me a copy of its submission to the inquiry. Myrtleford is an important town to the timber industry. It is the ori~nal primary processing home of Bowat er Ltd. It employs almost 400 people directly In the timber mill and a number of people in associated industries, including the transport industry. It forms the basis of about 800 people who work in the Moorabbin plant of Bowater Ltd producing tissues, toilet paper and a range of household items. The Shire of Myrtleford is the home of that primary Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 443 industry and it supports the timber industry. The shire was concerned at the purchase of private land. Although the available industry in the community was a primary user of that resource, it was concerned about its roads, and it has not been able to obtain finance. It is concerned that it has a limited land area and, ifprivate land is purchased by the government for pine plantations, the shire's rate revenue will be substantially reduced. The Shire ofTallangatta calculated more than twelve months ago that, within its boundaries, because private land had been purchased and turned over to the government-owned pines, a reduction of 9·3 per cent in its rates would occur. Since that date I should say that that figure would have increased. The Shire of Bright was concerned because it is immediately adjacent to the Shire of Myrtleford and stretches across into the Kiewa Valley. The Shire of Bright has substantial areas of pine forest on public land; in some cases the land is on its third rotation of pines. It is mentioned in the submission to the inquiry that only a small portion of the Shire of Bright is useable. The councillors are concerned that the acquisition of private land {or plantation purposes will diminish the availability of valuable farmland in that area. Some 92 per cent of the Shire of Bright is public land with 8 per cent being privately owned. Any purchase of private land by the government is of immense concern. The Shire of Bright also noticed that marginal forest areas in north-eastern Victoria have been identified as being suitable for plantation purposes. If I recall correctly, it was identified by the Land Conservation Council itself, among other people. The Shire or Bright also refers to the fact that certain steeper areas had pines $fown on them in previous years, and where pines have not been replanted erOSIon is occurring. The submission refers also to the impact on the local road structure of the existing and expanding plantation area and points out that, if plantations are to be established by the acquisition of farmland, such development should conform with local planning schemes. As Mr Hallam pointed out earlier in the debate, the government is not subject to planning schemes. The local shire has no say in whether the pines are planted in appropriate areas. Three months ago it was drawn to my attention by the Shire of Tallangatta that, by an Order in Council under the Planning and Environment Act, when the government enters into a sharefarming or other similar agreement with a private landowner to grow pines, the sharefarming agreement on that area of land is not subject to local planning ordinances. It is an interesting departure and precedent. Some councillors are concerned that, in order to try to get more farmers to use their land under a sharefarming agreement, the government could extend that Order in Council method to include rates and even an exemption from the provisions of the Fences Act to exempt the pine area from sharing the burden of the cost of boundary fences with a neighbour. Planning is an important issue. The Tallangatta Valley Progress Association represents the group of people who caused a furore eighteen months ago by blockading the Tallangatta Valley and, as a result, the current inquiry was set up. That council has made a detailed and comprehensive report and submission to the inquiry. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright)-Order! Does the submission have a date? The Hon. D. M. EVANS-It does not have a date, but it is a submission by the committee to the State Plantations Impact Study. The submission notes that on 14 August 1987 the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands purchased at public auction one of the largest and most productive dairy and beef farms in the area to plant pines. There are 59 farms in the Tallangatta Valley area. That farm, known as 444 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting the Bosse property, was at that time milking 60 cows, running 110 beef cattle and supporting three families. The concern of the Tallan$3tta Valley people is that, because of the strategic placement of the Bosse property, It could be said that it is a clear indication that the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands may be interested in purchasing other properties in the valley. The Tallangatta Valley is a long, narrow finger of verr. fertile land on the valley floor rising into gentle slopes, and the slopes are very ferttle but, because of the physical nature and the strategic placement of the Bosse property, it was felt that the purchase by the department increased the likelihood of landlocking of other properties in the area. The fear of their being landlocked would devalue other properties that came up for sale because buyers would be scared off. Another property came up for auction shortly after the Bosse property and because of a row going on with local farmers, advisedly the department did not seek to purchase that property; in fact, no-one else did. That is a clear indication that already the "pine blight" caused by the department is affecting land values in the area. If the department were not to cease its program of purchase in the valley, it would create an ever increasing rush by landowners in the valley to get out while there was some opportunity of obtaining a reasonable value for their land before it was devalued by 10 per cent, 20 per cent or 30 per cent. People realise that if the only body keen to purchase land in that valley were the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands, the community structure would be destroyed: school facilities would be removed and school buses would not run; if there were a fire there would be a lack of Country Fire Authority volunteers and; a number of community services would be reduced. There is a likelihood that other farmers will sell out. Those are the concerns that have worried residents of the Tallangatta Valley and, more recently, the people ofStrathbogie. A few weeks ago I attended a meeting up in the Strathbogie Ranges area. It was reported in Stock and Land of 16 March 1989 that 60 farmers attended that meeting. Similar concerns were raised to those involving the Tallangatta Valley. A couple of properties had already been purchased, some had been rumoured for purchase, and some people believed properties in their fertile area would be gradually surrounded by pines, their services would be reduced and eventually they would not be able to continue farming that area. The land is not a valley floor area. It is fertile and good highland country of an undulating nature with a percentage of timber. It is classic farming country, which grows some of the best fine wool in Victoria, if not Australia. Honourable members aware of primary production prices will understand that one of the only things helping to keep Australia anywhere near being solvent is the price received for Australia's best prime wool. Strathbogie is one of the key areas producing such wool. The land purchased by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands is top wool producing country. Despite the apparent government policy of non-clearance of native vegetation, the department has cleared stands of timber on land it has purchased, including good mill logs. Stock and Land has a photograph of one of the landowners and me standing in front of a huge tree that had been pushed over. Pines are an efficient producer of timber. Some people suggest they are dreadful, or that they are a desert and so on, but pines do not poison the water, or do any significant harm. They are just another crop in an area. In Canada, pines are the most common trees. When I visited Canada I attended on open air art show and was impressed with the fact that all the surrounding trees were pines. There were no gum trees. The same things that are said in Australia about pines are said about eucalypts in Spain. The government wants to pla!lt additional p~nes to meet its legislath:e requirements. I understand it wants to plant pInes on approxImately 11 000 hectares In north-eastern Victoria and on about 30 000 hectares in total throughout the remainder of Victoria. If all that land were provided by the purchase of private farmland, the minimum purchase would be about 40000 hectares. For various reasons some of the land Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 445

purchased will not be suitable for pine growing. It will be too wet, the soil will be unsuitable, and so on. Approximately 40 000 hectares of farmland will be required for purchase if the government is to meet its legislative agreements. The submission of the Victorian Sawmillers Association to the current inquiry was that there could well be a demand for 100 000 hectares of pines additional to those already growing in Victoria by the year 2030. Honourable members should understand that Australia needs to become self-sufficient so that it no longer needs to rob the forests of the remainder of the world. These types of statistics must be of significant concern to farming communities. The government may not stop at 30 000 hectares, and may go further. I refer the House to the submission of the Victorian Sawmillers Association of 3 March 1989 which sets out some statistics on the various areas of land in Victoria. There were 6·2 million hectares of sown pasture; 2·2 million hectares of cropland; (). 2 million hectares of softwood plantation; 7·9 million hectares of other tree-covered land' 6 million hectares of native pasture, roads and lakes; and 0·2 million hectares of residential and industrial land. The total land base is 22·7 million hectares, of which about 8·2 million hectares or 37 per cent is owned by the Crown. Residential and industrial land comprises 200 000 hectares. Coincidentally the area of softwood plantations in Victoria is also 200 000 hectares. Some 100 000 hectares is planted on public land and about the same on privately owned pine plantations. Not only is the area of land planted with pines in Victoria very small compared with the total area of publicly owned land, but also the requirement of 30 000 additional hectares is even more minute. If the area of land planted with pines was doubled in Victoria, it would still be less than 2 per cent of the total land area of the State, and only about 3·5 per cent of the total of public land in the State would then be planted with publicly owned pines. I put it in stark, simple terms. If the government cannot find 30 000 hectares out of 8 million hectares that it owns, there is something wrong. If the government does that the issues that have been discussed today will immediately be overcome. The actions of this government have greatly increased the difficulties to be faced by a responsible government in the future. The motion now before the House deserves the full support of all honourable members so that Australia can become self-sufficient in timber production; so that it can reduce the huge import bill, and so that Victorians can live within their means and not rob the forests of the remainder of the world. All that can be achieved in a responsible manner. I commend Mr Hallam's motion to the House. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I congratulate Mr Hallam for bringing to the attention of the House this motion: That this House deplores the Cain government's current policy of purchasing freehold grazing land to meet its commitment for the commercial planting of pines, when adequate areas of public land are available and suitable for that purpose, and condemns its unwillingness to include the issue of planting pines on public land in the terms of reference of its current inquiry. Although I cannot support it as such, the motion enables the House to deal with a range of ideas. Nearly every corner of the State has been represented in this debate. Honourable members representing East Gippsland, South Gippsland, the North Eastern Province and the Central Highlands Province, together with Mr Sgro, who also knows something about the province Mr Baxter represents, have put forward their views. Many ideas have been raised, but there has also been constructive criticism on a difficult problem. Perhaps I should explain to the House how the government's current policy has come about. If honourable members understand the reasons and the actual spirit of what the policy is, rather than the way it is worded, they may better understand what 446 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

the Labor Party attempted to achieve while it was in opposition and since it has been in government. In the late 1970s the then government had an ad hoc arrangement whereby large pulp mills, especially in the province represented by Mr Baxter, met with the government of the day-they did not arrange to see the Minister of Forests-and in many cases put forward a proposition to the Premier to expand their mill or build a new mill, to employ so many people and bring so many export dollars into the State. The Premier accepted the propositions and instructed the Minister of Forests to provide sufficient resources to these companies. That was the procedure. The then Forests Commission would be instructed to allocate the land. In many cases the land contained reasonable native vegetation. Some of it was logged but much was not suitable for logging. Nevertheless, it had some aesthetic and important conservation value. As Mr Baxter well knows, large areas of forest were cleared and replanted with pine. Towards the late 1970s there was an awakening of the conservation consciousness of the people of Victoria. Many people believed it was time to call a halt and that we could not continue the way we were going. More controls to prevent the destruction of native forests were required. Some forests were being destroyed before flora or fauna surveys had been conducted. No-one knew what was being destroyed. I would not classify a pine forest as a desert but, despite .what Mr Baxter says, it does not support much native flora or fauna. If one visits a pine forest, one finds little living in it. At the time the Labor Party formulated its conservation policy, I was a member of the policy committee, along with Mr Henshaw. The committee believed native forests should be protected. It also believed non-viable farmland should be used for pine plantations. No-one would argue with that, and that was how the spirit of the policy came into being. It was a good policy and it was necessary at that time. After being in opposition and expounding the policy-as one does in opposition­ the moment of truth came in 1982 when the Labor Party won government. I was in the hot seat being the then Minister of Forests and having to implement the policy. I realised that nothing is as black and white as it seems at the outset, and the policy could not be implemented immediately because contracts made by the previous government had to be honoured. Commltments to industry that had invested money and plant had to be honoured, as did contracts for the clearing of forests. In 1982 the government commissioned a report by officers of the then Forests Commission to put forward the options for future softwood production in the State. That had not been done before; no long-term plan had been made. The people involved at the time did not know what suitable land was available. When companies came to the government wanting additional plantings, it was necessary to know exactly what resources were available and where additional resources could be found. Much work was done in those days to determine where resources could be provided. As honourable members have pointed out, limitations apply to where pines can be planted. Not only are the terrain and natural resources, such as rainfall, major factors but also one is confined by the distance of a plantation from the mill. In 1982, if a plantation was more than 70 to 75 kilometres from the mill, the cartage costs put into question the viability of the proposition. The Hon. M. T. Tehan-Viability for whom? The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-That was the situation in 1982; I do not know what the situation is now. Obviously, there are better methods of carting or perhaps Pine Planting 19 Apri11989 COUNCIL 447 the trucks are bigger. Plant and equipment have improved and labour costs have been cut. When I was the Minister, I received representations from Mr Baxter and officers of the then Forests Commission, and I visited a forest in north-eastern Victoria. It became obvious to me that, on the fringes of the farmland in the area, Crown land had degraded over a period and had become of no value. It had been logged several times and was the subject of mining activities. The land was full of noxious weeds and in no way could it be defined as a forest of any value, not even conservation value. I do not necessarily regard scrub as having no value, because it often contains animal and plant life; however, there was a lot of land in north-eastern Victoria that had been degraded. After that visit I believed the government's policy needed to be changed and that native forests had to be defined in a way to protect important conservation forests but to allow some areas to be cleared. Despite much discussion, no-one was able to arrive at a proper definition of a native forest. That was unfortunate, because it would have overcome some of the problems that existed at the time. In 1982 a system was in place so the government could ensure that it did not increase prices generally when it purchased private land. The way the government ensured it was buying non-viable farmland was that, before any attempt was made to buy the land, the viable farmland in the resion was valued. If, for instance, the price of$7oo a hectare was set for viable farmland, the government set a maximum purchase price for non-viable farmland. Therefore, any land purchased at a lower price was unviable, otherwise it would not have been available at that low price. That system was used to control prices so that they did not soar. I do not agree entirely with Mr Hallam's motion and a lot of what he said, but I agree with many matters that he said the government should consider. Difficulties are experienced by shires such as Bright and Orbost where lands are 80 to 90 per cent publicly owned. They experience enormous problems with the maintenance of roads. It is a dangerous precedent for the government to pay rates, but there are other ways the government can assist if that option is not used. I was interested in what Mr Hallam said about the purchasing of land at high prices. The government should not artificially force up the price ofland; it has a responsibility not to disadvantage the community in that way. The original policy ofthe Labor Party referred to the purchase of non-viable farmland, and if low prices were paid land values were not forced up. What is happening now has been going on for some considerable time and, if we look at the four years before the current government came to power and consider the totals of softwood plantations, we find that between 1978 and 1982, 9500 hectares of native forest were cleared for pine plantations and 3031 hectares were purchased by the previous $overnment. In four years this government has cleared far less and has stopped cleanng altogether by phasing it out. In 1986-87 some 3497 hectares were cleared, as against 1200 in 1982-83, and the area purchased has been greater. In the four years up to 1985-86 the government has purchased 4000 hectares of land. I agree that there are and always have been problems in regard to providing the resource. We must plant a great deal more softwoods because the more softwoods we can produce, the more stress will be taken off our native forests. The Hoo. M. T. Tehao-What about hardwood plantations? The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-In the building industry very few people use hardwoods. Of course, hardwoods take twice and sometimes up to three times as long to produce. 448 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting

All honourable members will be aware as they drive around country areas, especially in western Victoria, that many secondary roads have large, wide road reserves. In many cases a narrow bitumen road runs for miles down one side. In those Crown road reserves there would be sufficient land to grow at least six or seven rows of radiata pine. In addition, no clearing needs to be done; the area is already fenced from the farmers' properties; a windbreak would be provided which in turn would improve the pastures of the farmers on the leeward side; there would be an access road; and no roadworks would need to be done. It would be economic to produce softwood timber in that way. A great deal of benefit would be gained by doing that. Mr Hallam implied in the course of his remarks that no cost was involved in using Crown land at a time when huge sums are being paid for private land. In other words, there was plenty of Crown land available for nothing. That is not quite right and if one is considenng having to clear land, it must be remembered that it costs about $800 a hectare to buy private land and rip it up. In the situation of native forests on Crown land, the cost would be $650 to prepare the land and by the time it was cleared, ripped up and all the other things that are needed had been done before planting, 75 per cent of the cost would be involved. Therefore, the Crown land does not come for nothing. A considerable cost is involved. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-That is assuming it has forest on it. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-I agree. I speak mainly of my electorate in the Otways, which is a little different from the situation in the north-east which has been discussed mainly tonight. In the 1890s when the Otways area was opened up for dairy farms, it was cleared and burnt right into the heart of the area and that was a disaster. By the 1920s, most of the farms were deserted. People walked off and left all the cleared land. One of the few good things that happened in the depression, apart from the building of the Great Ocean Road and a few other things, was that the Forests Commission at the time used a great deal of unemployment labour to plant forests, not any radiata pine but a whole range of other pines from Douglas fir to big plantations of giant redwoods. Some 50 years later we are reaping the benefit of what occurred then. That whole area was planted out. One of the unfortunate things with the Otways is that so much of the land which is in private ownership has been sold since the war to pri'/ate companies which have also removed the native forests for pines. The people of C.1eelong and my constituents feel quite differently from the farmers that Mr Evans, fv~r Hallam and others talked about. The people in Geelong resent what has happened in the Otways. They said quite some time ago that they had had enough. When one flies over the area one can see what has happened. The number of pines in the Otways has ~own to the point where it is understood there should be no more. Any moves by pnvate companies to extend the pine plantations there have generally met with a great deal of resistance. Only recently a number of farmers at Lavers Hill appeared before the Planning Appeals Tribunal to object to more pines being planted in that area. People in that area have a different concern. It is a problem that needs to be addressed. I think the government accepts criticism. This government has achieved a great deal in the conservation area. It has stopped ad hoc arrangements and has brought in proper planning, putting things on a basis where decisions are made. No company is given a clear go until it is known that areas are available to provide the resources. A great deal has been done but problems have been raised tonight and raised in the inquiry. I believe it would be a good idea if the contributions during this debate were passed on to those who are conducting that inquiry because what has been expressed in the House tonight covers many viewpoints and contains constructive criticism for the government to address. Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 449

It also gives the government the opportunity of explaining what it is doing and what it has done in the past in what is a real problem. How do we provide the land for that resource and yet protect the areas of native forest that many of us believe should be protected? As was said early in the piece by Mr Henshaw, when we consider the area offorest that was here before the white man arrived, from the Dandenongs right down through Gippsland, the great forests of the Otways and Heytesbury, we find we have removed so very much. Let us make sure that we do not remove any more of our valuable assets and let us hope that out of this motion and the diScussIons that have occurred we will be able to plan even better for the future use of Victorian forests and the future production of softwood in this State. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-During the debate considerable information related to local knowledge has been provided by honourable members and that is always a healthy thing. It must be clear to any honourable member that there is extreme danger in handling an issue like this without having appropriate policies. The debate illustrates the difficulties that members of the Liberal and National parties have because, although they are in agreement in some areas, they are clearly not in a position to put forward a concerted policy beyond pointing out problem areas. In balancing the management of forests between environmental concerns and the obvious economic potential that we have in our forest areas it must be acknowledged that it has to be attacked in a systematic way. The government is bearing some of the odium of the past. Some honourable members referred to degraded forests and forests that are not in a productive or sound economic condition because the natural species have been changed. Those forests have been degraded by intervention and exploitation through a system of logging more akin to mining, where a succession of operators, often separated by a number of years, have pro~essively taken the best trees so that the ecological content of the particular forest IS significantly degraded. Because there is not a natural process of regeneration, either by fire or by seeds falling to the ground and being regenerated, forests have deteriorated. That is part of the bad management and ad hoc planning which must be and has been rectified by the government. Victoria has suffered from a history of overcutting and exploitation in certain areas and from intrusions in areas that did not warrant them. That was touched upon by Mr Mackenzie when he referred to logging in the Otways and the quality of the forest remnants. Most people would conclude that the pine plantations went too far in terms of the value of that forest. The government has addressed that situation by taking the necessary steps to produce the timber strategy, which is really coordinated actions that reinforce one another and do not contradict one another. The timber strategy was based on solid research, the Ferguson inquiry, and consultation with timber workers and the community, and it took on board the work done by the Land Conservation Council, the general concerns of the timber industry and the need of the community to get maximum benefit from the heritage of public land. The process involved the consideration of a number of issues. Any person who leaves any of those important issues out when debating this issue is putting a parochial view on an issue that is of long-term importance to the economy of Victoria. I also refer honourable members to issues like occupational health and safety, which was long neglected in the industry; conservation, which was neglected and not balanced against productivity; the value added issue, where in many cases the industry was not reaping the full benefits of harvesting of forest areas; marketing and using all possible products; employment and the need to take specific action where changes were Session 1989-15 450 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting occurring to provide for social support for the regions affected; and, finally and very importantly, the examination of methods of regeneration, sustainable yields and silvicultural processes, as well as reports on the whole fields of relevant research. Those things have occurred over a period and a number of people have contributed. Many professionals have been heartened by the support they have been given by a government that is prepared to tackle these issues. Those professionals have put forward new ideas and new ways of approaching the situation that have encouraged sound management of the forest areas. Part of the whole picture is dealing with the softwood areas of Victoria. As distinct from hardwood forests, Australia is not naturally endowed with softwood forests, particularly in Victoria, that are suitable for the construction industry or economic activity. This issue has been addressed by the planting of introduced species and, as Mr Mackenzie mentioned, one of the pr()Jects embarked upon in the depression years involved people testing a number of different species of softwoods in the Otways to see if they would develop in the Victorian climate. The remnant of those species can be seen today. Most of those trees failed in terms of rate of growth or, where to the casual observer the growth seemed sound and the timber appeared straight and marketable, on sample cuttin~ it was found, for various reasons relating to temperature and so on, that the timber dId not grow to the quality that it developed in its native country. The main softwood timber that succeeded in Victoria was pinus radiata, which is most commonly used for the provision of softwood. As part of the timber strategy and to meet a commitment to maintain the integrity of our hardwood forest, careful processes are in place to ensure that in the recycling of the forest and the harvesting of the value of the timber the community so far as possible restores the developed areas to their natural state so that the forests that grow up have a similar characteristic in relation to their ecology and value. It is a ~ood illustration to say that if hardwood forests are managed correctly one can obtaIn the economic value as well as a sound ecological environment. That is vastly different from replacing the forest with introduced species and that is where the policy of the government comes into play, because the government has indicated that it will not continue with the replacement of native forests by introduced species such as pines. That does not mean the government will not use the economic resources of those forests, but it will do it by the regeneration of hardwood. It means that there has to be some other way of meeting the commercial and legal requirements for the quantities of softwood timber that are needed. The method adopted is to use non-public land for the growing of softwood plantations. At the moment the best estimate of the quantities is that Victoria has 101 072 hectares in public land area growing softwoods. Some 5400 hectares are also available for planting. The balance required to meet Victoria's commitments is approximately 20 000 hectares but that, as some speakers have pointed out, is a net figure and to obtain the actual area one needs to make an estimate of what is required for environmental considerations such as the protection of stream sides and so on, which can vary from site to site. No-one is in a position to assume a definite figure for that estimate. In terms of quantification, if one required an extra 20 per cent, measured in terms of gross versus net, approximately 24 000 hectares would be required to meet commitments. It is not an extraordinarily high figure, although it must be realised that there is some room in the finality and the quantification of the figure. According to figures I have extracted, that is almost ()'4 per cent of the land which is now in sown pasture in private areas. It is not a large amount of land in proportion to the total area. Pine Planting 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 451

Nevertheless, i~s important that the l~n4 to be ~sed is c~osen in the best possible way. The method of purchase and the cntena used In choosing the land then become important. Some commonsense requirements must be used, as have been alluded to by several speakers. It is necessary to make it an economic operation and to maximise the financial return from the softwood plantations. As a criterion the government has stated that there should be a real rate of return amounting to 4 per cent. In terms of operational requirements, there is a need to consolidate in terms of efficiency of management and fire protection and to rationalise the use of roads. Every effort must be made to protect the roads, particularly those committed to heavy traffic. Plantations should be established in accordance with the approved code of forest practice as to safety and agreed slope limitations. Many practical limitations are imposed in choosing sites for plantations. The purchases are on a completely seller-willing and buyer-willing basis. No compulsory acquisition is involved, althou$h the results of purchases may be disturbing to some people because of the changing Clfcumstances in the area. By either private treaty or by auction, the government is purchasing property in a completely normal market way. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-Except it has a distinct advantage before it starts. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-AlI proposed purchases are subject to rigorous financial evaluation involving projecting all the establishment and growing considerations, as well as those relevant to future revenue from timber production. The process is firmly based according to the judgment and expertise of those involved. In order to meet those criteria, not any old land will do. The best land prices itself well out of contention and, presuming it is in production, provides a benefit for Victoria. Marginal land at the other end of the scale is incapable of being invested in for pine plantations because the return for the effort will not be sufficient, nor will it meet the commercial requirements and timing of any commercial requirements to which the government is committed. The land required to be purchased must have certain attributes that coincide to some extent with qualities relating to some grazing land. There is no shirking the issue: a conflict of use must be resolved, and it is not a matter of finding land that other people do not want~ the land will have some value. The process must be one that honestly faces the concept in terms of choosing actual sites. The involvement of people in the process is important. As a result of expressed concerns, the government is conducting a State Plantations Impact Study which is addressing the issues of concern to local communities as well as issues brought to the attention of the study durin~ public consultations. The study is in its final stages, and the consultant should prOVide a report by the end of this month. That will then be made public and consultations will occur, when the public will be able to comment on whether the study has addressed all concerns it should determine the best way to proceed. The Hon. R. M. Hallam-What about the land purchased to this time? The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-It is an entirely appropriate process. As with processes used in other parts of the development of the timber industry strategy, the knockers will find that people respond to genuine processes. Finally, they will be on a limb with their ad hoc concerns, and the majority will see that the government arrives at a well balanced approach to providing timber and meeting the needs of local communities. The situation can be exacerbated by concerns about the viability of rural communities. I acknowledge that a number of rural communities are experiencing 452 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Pine Planting stressful times, but that is not related or attributable to this action. The loss of population in schools as an indicator is one to which I can relate, because that is happening in my electorate, where schools that formerly had 400 to 500 pupils now have fewer than 200 pupils and are reachin~ a point where their viability is in Question. I understand that similar situations are QUIte traumatic in small communities in rural areas. Last year I visited a northern area for discussions about certain matters with local constituents. A farmer who obviously was an efficient producer indicated that changes in his area were to the detriment of residents; for example, tennis courts are not now used because the population has decreased, and other activities that were commonplace when he was younger are no longer viable. The farmer had purchased three or four properties and had demolished the houses on them because he did not know what should be done with them. Ironically, he was considered to be part of the process of undermining the community to whIch he belongs because he was efficient and had laser grading. The government is in control of the process of developing a timber strategy and is aware of the concerns relating to the issue. It is taking those issues on board. The motion before the House is totally unnecessary and demonstrates an attempt by the Opposition and the National Party to hold onto an issue in an ad hoc fashion, particularly to the detriment of the Liberal Party, because the contradictions involved in taking a different course mean that it will have to state its position in relation to the clearing of forests. The National Party has no problem about that, but in terms of credibility in the conservation area, the Liberal Party will have serious problems in any defence without a policy that it can place into a proper context. That party is attemptIng to chase votes with the National Party without any credibility with a large number of people in Victoria who hold conservation values in high esteem. The government rejects the motion before the House. The PRESIDENT-Order! Does Mr Hallam desire to exercise his right of reply? The Hon. R. M. HaUam-No, Mr President. The House divided on the motion (the Hon. A. J. Hunt in the chair). Ayes 22 Noes 17 Majority for the motion 5

AYES NOES MrAshman Mrs Coxsedge MrBaxter MrCrawford MrBest MrsHogg Mr Birrell Mrlves Mr Chamberlain MrKennedy MrConnard Ms Kokocinski MrCox Mr Landeryou MrCraige Mrs Lyster MrdeFegely MrsMcLean MrHa11 Mr Mackenzie MrHallam MrMier MrKnowles MrPullen MrLawson Mr Theophanous MrLong MrWalker MrMacey MrWhite MrSmith Local Government Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 453

AYES NOES MrStorey Tellers: Mrs Tehan MrSgro Mrs Varty MrVanBuren MrWright Tellers: MrEvans MrGuest PAIRS MrMiles MrDavidson MrSkeggs MrHenshaw The sitting was suspended at 6.36 p. m. until 8.13 p. m.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL A message was received from the Assembly transmitting a report from the Clerk of the Parliaments calling attention to a clerical error in this Bill and acquainting the Council that the Assembly had corrected the error. The Council concurred with the Assembly in the correction of the error.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS) BILL A message was received from the Assembly transmitting a report from the Clerk of the Parliaments calling attention to clerical errors in this Bill and acquainting the Council that the Assembly had corrected the errors. The Council concurred with the Assembly in the correction of the errors.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction) (By leave)-I wish to make a personal explanation. In response to a question from Mr Best earlier today about the maximum stamp duty rebate I said that I would provide him with a sheet of calculations. Mr Best referred to a figure which I cited in a previous debate and which he believed was inaccurate. That figure was not provided by my department; when I received it in a briefing note I questioned it and was assured it was correct. As I promised Mr Best earlier today, I have had the calculations redone and I have discovered that the figure to which he referred is incorrect. It should be $2200 instead of $2800. I regret that I inadvertently made that error, and I shall supply the honourable member with the sheet of calculations as promised. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-Has anyone else made a mistake? The Hon. B. T. PULLEN-Only in Greensborough! The PRESIDENT-Order! Before moving on to the next Order of the Day, I commend the Minister for his action. A prompt correction such as the one the Minister made is in the best traditions of the House. 454 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 County Court (Amendment) Bill

COUNTY COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill has three purposes: 1. to ratify, validate and approve a new set of County Court Civil Rules; and 2. to make consequential amendments arising from the validation of these new rules; and 3. to make certain other beneficial amendments to the County Court Act which are of a miscellaneous nature. In 1986 the Parliament validated a new set of Supreme Court Civil Procedure Rules which were the product of some years intensive work by the Rules Committee of the Supreme Court. Those rules have been operating very successfully since the beginning of 1987. It can be said with confidence that those rules are the most modem and clear superior court rules in Australia. The Civil Justice Committee in 1984 recommended that the County Court take steps to harmonise its rules with those of the Supreme Court. As the jurisdictions of the Supreme and County courts have considerable similarity-although the County Court has jurisdictional limits-it is clear that cases which deal with similar issues should proceed in like manner in both courts. These new County Court Rules adopt Chapter I of the Supreme Court Rules with minor variations. These variations accommodate as is necessary differences of jurisdiction and practice between the two courts. Copies of the rules have not been circulated but are available in the Papers Office. As a result of the validation of the rules, there is a need to amend the County Court Act 1958 to ensure that there is no conflict between the Act and the rules. The amendments set out in Part 3 of the Bill are designed to amend the Act so that there is conformity between the Act and the rules. Part 4 of the Bill also makes amendments to the County Court Act which will facilitate the disposition of proceedin$s. There is a provision which will assist a litigation guardian or other person actIng on behalf of a minor person to make an agreement to settle a claim for damages for bodily injury, other than injury arising out of the use of a motor car, without the need to issue proceedings in the court. There are also provisions which will permit the County Court to engage a specialist assessor or to seek the opinion of counsel in certain CIrcumstances. There is also a provision which will permit the court to order the execution of instruments. These powers are possessed by the Supreme Court. The schedule to the Bill makes many amendments to other Acts in the statute. These amendments are consequential upon the validation of the new rules and the other amendments to the County Court Act. The enactment of the Bill and the operation of the new rules will contribute greatly to the ongoing improvements to the operations of the County Court which have occurred in recent years. The increase in the number of judges and the provision of new court rooms and up-to-date facilities are concrete examples of the government's commitment to the administration of justice in this State. The aim of the Bill is to ensure, as far as practicable, consistenc¥, of procedure between the Supreme and County courts; practitioners and litigants will benefit from this conformity. Rather than there being two different sets of rules including different time limits on which a case proceeds, rather than one modem system and one older Warrnambool Land Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 455 system operating in respect of cases in which issues are similar, there will effectively be a more unified scheme of civil procedure in the higher courts in Victoria. The Bill is facilitative and will assist greatly in the more efficient disposal of civil proceedings in the County Court. I commend the Bill to the House. On the motion of the Hon. R. I. Knowles, for the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), the debate was adjourned. It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

WARRNAMBOOL LAND BILL For the Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction), the Hon. C. J. Hogg (Minister for Health)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of this Bill is to revoke a portion of the permanent reservation for the protection of the coastline over Crown land near the mouth of the Hopkins River at Warmambool. The subject land, which forms part of the coastal lands in the Parish of Mepunga so reserved in 1982, is a 15-metre wide strip shown by hatching in Schedule 2 to the Bill. The City ofWarmambool controls the land as a committee of management under the Crown Land (Reserves) Act. The revocation is required to enable that 15-metre wide strip of land to be subsequ~ntly proclaimed as a road under section 25 (3) (c) of the Land Act 1958 to provide legal access to freehold land adjoining the reserve. This fulfils an obligation of the government in an interim arrangement with the owner of nearby primary coastal dune land which will ultimately result in 4 hectares ofthat dune land valued at $85 000 being donated to the State, provided that the State is prepared to pay the estimated costs of land transfer of $8000. The arrangement contains a benefit for the owner of the dune land as that person holds an interest in the ownership of the freehold land which is to be provided with legal access. The provision of that access will greatly enhance the value of that land as it will become capable of being subdivided. No other legal access could be arranged due to the unwillingness of other adjoining freehold owners to cooperate. A bitumen carriageway, 4 metres wide, already exists on about 160 metres of the total length of about 270 metres of the strip of reserved land proposed to become road. A turntable bitumen area is at the end of the carriageway. Warrnambool City Council proposes to upgrade this carriageway and to provide a similar surface on the extension. This will be ofbenefit to the public who use the reserved land in the vicinity extensively for picnicking and passive recreation. The Warrnambool City Council and the Coastal Management and Coordination Committee support the proposals. The Bill provides for the legislation to come into operation on a day to be proclaimed. This will enable the government to bring about the revocation only when all conditions of the interim arrangement are satisfied and a final agreement has been reached for the transfer of the dune land to the State. Upon completion of the transfer of the dune land to the State, that land will be added to the reserve for the protection of the coastline under the Crown Land (Reserves) Act and be controlled and managed by the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands. Members who are familiar with this coastal dune area at the mouth of the Hopkins River will know that the land has a high conservation value and should be protected as a conservation area for the benefit of future generations. The opportunity for the 456 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Valuation ofLand (Amendment) Bill

State to obtain that land for little cost should not be missed, and I commend the Bill to the House. The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Eastern Province)-The National Party supports the Bill. My colleague in another place, Mr John McGrath, has had a great deal of interest in this proposed legislation, which rectifies an error that occurred when certain areas of land were set aside for dune protection purposes and inadvertently cut off access to another area of land in the vicinity. The matter has another little twist, that the provision of the roadway and the access to this owner's land will also facilitate the general public being able to get close to an area that is very much a vantage point for tourists and other interested people to view the southern right whale, an interesting marine mammal that appears off the Warmambool coast from time to time. So not only does this little piece of legislation assist the owner and rectify an error, but it has the advantage of adding to the enjoyment of people who visit Warmambool. My colleague in another place assures me that there is a great deal of local support for the proposed legislation. I thank the House for facilitating the passage of the Bill. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

VALUATION OF LAND (AMENDMENT) BILL The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. The purpose of the Bill is essentially twofold: (i) it complements the Local Government Bill and reflects machinery of government changes by transferring the valuation provisions from the Local Government Act 1958 to the Valuation of Land Act 1960; and (ii) it makes other amendments to the Valuation of Land Act which improve and clarify its operation. Machinery of government changes in 1985 resulted in the transfer of the Valuer­ General's Office from the Local Government Department to the Department of Property and Services. Following the government's decision to initiate a new Local Government Act, it was considered appropriate that the valuation provisions from the current Local Government Act be transferred to the Valuation of Land Act. In this war, legislation relating to valuation matters is consolidated into existing valuation legislatIon administered by the Minister for Property and Services. The Bill makes amendments which improve and clarify the operation of the Valuation of Land Act. It amends the definition of "farm land" making it consistent with the Land Tax Act with the aim of ensuring that properties not primarily used as farmland are not rated as such. It allows for appeals against decisions of the Valuers Qualification Board to be directed to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Currently the only avenue of appeal is the Supreme Court, where costs have proven to be disproportionate to the original dispute. The Administrative Appeals Tribunal will provide a less costly and speedier mechanism for appeals. It provides for a fourth member of the Valuers Qualification Board nominated by the Minister. This will enable the Minister to promote a range of perspectives and representation in the composition of the board, as well as to have regard to gender issues. Cancer (Central Registers) Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 457

The Bill amends the mechanism for setting the monetary limits which determine the conditions under which appeals against valuations are heard. The limits will be set by regulation rather than fixed in the legislation. More appeals will now be able to be heard by single valuer arbitrators-which are one-person boards-thereby reducing the costs incurred by using larger boards of review. Periodic increase in the monetary limits will reflect general increases in property values. The existing limit has not been amended since 1979 and is now clearly out of date. The Bill also allows for valuer registration certificates to be issued on the basis of an ability to value according to property category. The current system provides for either full registration of valuers or registration limited to particular geographical areas. The new provision also enables registrations for particular categories of property. This amendment will enable valuers to specialise and will broaden consumer choice when seeking to use the services ofa valuer. The Bill also clarifies the secrecy provisions of the Act. The existing provision is framed in very broad and all-encompassing terms and does not guarantee the protection of confidential valuation information. The amendments will specifically protect information given to valuers in confidence and documents obtained or created by the Valuer-General for the purpose of providing valuation advice. Protection of information given to valuers in confidence is essential to ensure valuations are based on full and accurate information. This Bill will ensure that such information is protected from disclosure. All other material will now be available for disclosure subject to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act. This will include policy documents, personnel information, and non-confidential correspondence. I commend the Bill to the House. On the motion of the Hon. R. I. Knowles, for the Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province), the debate was adjourned. It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

CANCER (CENTRAL REGISTERS) BILL The House went into Committee for the consideration of this Bill. Qause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I thank all honourable members who made contributions to yesterday's second-reading debate. They were interesting and informed contributions and it was an excellent debate. In advance of the amendments being put, I thank Mr Birrell and Mr Baxter for the spirited cooperation with which the amendments were worked through, largely with the assistance of Mr Rassaby from Health Department Victoria. I acknowledge that the thrust of the amendments was very largely from the opposition parties but the spirit of cooperation in working through them is something for which I am grateful. The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 3 to 5. Clause 6 458 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Cancer (Central Registers) Bill

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I move: 1. Oause 6, lines 3 to 10, omit paragraph (a) and insert- '(a) for sub-section (2) substitute- "(2) The person in charge of any place where a cancer test is undertaken shall, when the test indicates that a person is suffering from cancer, cause a report on that test to be forwarded to the Council."; and'. The amendment is being proposed as a drafting expediency. It makes no change of substance to the Bill. As drafted, clause 6 (a) of the Bill makes five changes to section 60 (2) of the principal Act. The amendment re-enacts that subsection with all the amendments proposed in the Bill. However, it also includes one consequential minor correction, chan~ng "the person" to read "a person", which would otherwise need to be made by mOVIng another amendment. Section 60 (2) is a relatively small provision. Rather than moving the additional amendment required, it is considered that re-enactment of the section incorporating all the amendments proposed would be of more assistance to honourable members in discussing the total effect of the changes. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted. Clause 7 The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I move: 2. Oause 7, lines 17 to 23, omit sub-sections (4) and (5) and insert- "(4) A person who makes an examination of, or takes a specimen from, another person to determine whether that other person is suffering from cancer, before a report is forwarded to an organization under sub-section (1) or (2)- (a) must ensure that that other person has been informed of the right to object to the report being forwarded; and (b) if aware of an objection by that other person, must ensure- (i) that the report includes notice of the making of the objection; and (ii) that a written acknowledgement of the objection is given to the other person.". The purpose of the amendment is to substitute a new provision for proposed section 62 (4) and 62 (5) as contained in the Bill. Subsections (3) and (4) of section 62 would have made it an offence to send a report on a cancer test to the Registry for Cervical Cytology if the person tested objected; and obviated any obligation to notify the tested person of his or her right to object. The latter provision is considered undesirable because it could create the false impression that medical practitioners should not inform their patients of their ability to opt out of the register. This is not the aim of the government, which believes that practitioners should be encouraged to inform patients of their rights under the legislation. On this basis, the substituted provision will put an onus on a person making the examination to inform his or her patients of their right to opt out of the register. The amendment reinforces the government's commitment to the provision by doctors and other health care workers of full and frank information about the nature and significance of proposed medical procedures. I emphasise, however, that where the law is used to require the provision of information to patients, great care should be taken to ensure that the law operates in a sensitive fashion. The government is not in favour of prescriptive and rigid formulae which interfere in the doctor-patient relationship. Cancer (Central Registers) Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 459

Proposed section 62 (5), which provides that an action does not lie against a person only because he or she forwarded a report on a cancer test to a prescribed register, is now regarded as superfluous and, accordingly, is also to be omitted from the Bill by the amendment. I acknowledge the work ofMrs Tehan in regard to this amendment. The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-I support the omission of sub­ sections (4) and (5) and the introduction of a new sub-section (4). This is a most important amendment because it overturns the previous proposition that people need not be told of their rights. The Liberal Party certainly found it to be offensive as it believed the provision was patronising to women. The proposed new provision is excellent. I was concerned, when consulting on this issue, to read a letter dated 24 November 1988 from Ms Stephanie Brown, Policy/Research Worker of the Health Issues Centre Inc. Ms Brown made the following comment on the amendment on which the Labor, National and Liberal parties now agree: It may be argued that the Bill should be altered to ensure that all women are acquainted with this right of refusal. However, HIe believes there is a significant danger, if such a change were made to the Bill, that many women would fail to understand the value of the register and choose to opt out, thus lessening the potential effectiveness of the register . . . . the Bill should not be weakened in this area. I have some respect for the Health Issues Centre Inc. and I was absolutely astounded that it should be canvassing a view to the Opposition that women should not be informed of their rights because they may reacl) a conclusion that was contrary to the view of the centre. There cannot be a more classic example of the patronising of women than the way in which the centre has expressed its belief that women should be treated as second­ class citizens. I should like to place on record that the centre's stance is wrong. It has been rejected by every political party in Victoria. The centre should lift its game if it believes that the type of views it has expressed in this letter are in any way representative of women. The Opposition supports the amendment. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-I am pleased also that the amendment is being made because the original subsection (4) certainly sent alarm bells ringing in my mind when I first studied the Bill some time ago. I am glad that universal agreement now prevails as to a satisfactory procedure and form or words. In my contribution to the second-reading debate last evening, I flagged the issue that has perhaps been raised in the letter from which Mr Birrell has just quoted. I would not want to be supporting the logic advanced in that letter at all, but I believe there could well be a problem that, if the right to object is simply boldly directed to the attention of women, some may be given some cause to object without realising the great benefit that this register will provide. I suggested last night, and I reinforce the suggestion now, that a careful education process will need to be undertaken. I also suggested last evening some of the groups that might be helpful in that procedure. From the discussions I have had with the Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria, I am confident that the council is aware of the potential problem and is taking steps to ensure that it will not arise, but I believe the point has been well made, and I am sure notice will be taken of it. The amendment was agreed to. 460 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Cancer (Central Registers) Bill

The HOD. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I move: 3. Oause 7, line 24, omit "(6)" and insert "(5)". 4. Clause 7, line 34, omit "(7)" and insert "(6)". 5. Oause 7, page 5, line 2, omit "(6)" and insert "(5)". 6. Clause 7, page 5, line 2, omit "or". 7. Clause 7, page 5, line 3, omit paragraph (d). 8. Oause 7, page 5, line 5, omit "(8)" and insert "(7)". The amendments were agreed to. The HOD. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I move: 9. Oause 7, page 5, after line 7, insert- "(8) An organization that maintains a prescribed register is a provider of a health service for the purposes of the Health Services (Conciliation and Review) Act 1987.". The amendment adds a new sub-section to proposed section 62 to be inserted by clause 7 of the Bill. The new provision will provide that an organisation that maintains the prescribed register is a provider of a health service for the purposes of the Health Services (Conciliation and Review) Act 1987. It will have the effect ofbringing the Register for Cervical Cytology within the scope of that Act and, in particular, will enable persons concerned about a breach of privacy relating to information held on the register to complain to the Health Services Commissioner. The amendment was agreed to. The HOD. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-1 move: Oause 7, page 5, line 28, after this line insert- "( 11) Regulations made under this section may be disallowed in whole or in part by resolution of either House of the Parliament in accordance with the requirements of section 6 (2) of the Subordinate Legislation Act 1962. (12) Disallowance under sub-section (11) is deemed to be disallowance by Parliament for the purposes of the Subordinate Legislation Act 1962." This is the standard amendment moved by the Opposition to every Bill and is designed to ensure that each Chamber has the right to disallow regulations. I might add, as is the normal course of events, that the Opposition has no plans at this stage to use that power, but it believes it is a power that should be given to the Upper Chamber as well as the Lower Chamber. I take up the comments of my colleague Mr Baxter. His expression of support for and concern to ensure that the Bill works when it is passed is absolutely correct and, therefore, an educational campaign will be required. I am delighted that that is being planned by the government and the Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria. The HOD. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-As usual, the government opposes the standard amendment as moved by Mr Birrell. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted. The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and the amendments were adopted. Credit Bill and Licensing Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 461

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. In doing so, once again I thank all honourable members who have made contributions to the debate. I assure them that every effort will be put into the education campaign that has been spoken about because that is a very supportive measure. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

CREDIT (ADMINISTRATION) (AMENDMENT) BILL AND LICENSING AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL The debates (adjourned from April 11) on the motion of the Hon. M. A. Lyster (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of these Bills were resumed. The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-The Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill and the Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill, being debated concurrently, will have a clause relating to the disallowance of regulations added to at least one of them in the Committee stage. The general purposes of the two fairly complex Bills are to bring together Bills of a similar nature that have similar methods of administration. The Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill also contains amendments to the Motor Car Traders Act and others to which I shall refer later. It is typical of the Ministry of Consumer Affairs that it cannot get it right. In every sessional period Bills related to consumer services come before the House. The Bills are thicker and more complex in their legalese, and consequently more difficult to understand. As I said last night in the debate on another Bill, it is consumerism at its best. Even honourable members who are used to discussing legislation are finding it difficult to understand the amendments on amendments being made to Acts, especially those emanating from the Ministry of Consumer Affairs. The Opposition does not oppose the Bills generally. Historically the Ministry has a $ood track record in defending the legitimate rights of consumers who face difficulties In their dealings with traders and retailers. The majority of traders are honest people but, as in all industries or professions, there are always some people who, regretfully, do not attract the best track record. Over a period it has become necessary to incorporate into legislation defences for consumer interests. As a result, the legislation is becoming more and more complex. I take great pride in saying that the Liberal Party founded the legislation relating to consumer rights and appointed several excellent administrators in that field. It is saddening that the Minister for Consumer Affairs and his Ministry do not seem to be able to attract a Director of Consumer Affairs who will stay in the position. Perhaps it is because there are all these complex issues of tidying up which seem to be troubling honourable members constantly. As I said, in almost every sessional period similar Bills are presented because the government and the Minister have not got it right. The sooner the government changes the better, as honourable members on this side of the House could perhaps run the Ministry of Consumer Affairs more efficiently than the government. The Small Claims Tribunal was established in 1973. It handles over 4000 claims a year. The claims are handled relatively cheaply, requiring the payment ofa small fee and the filling out of a claim form. The tribunal handles the majority of claims satisfactorily and seems to work fairly well. 462 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Credit Bill and Licensing Bill

I refer specifically to the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill which establishes a Credit Tribunal as a separate entity from the Small Claims Tribunal. The Credit Tribunal will deal specifically with large contracts worth up to $1 millj6n~'" In a sense, the legislation has gone beyond the ethos of the purpose of the Small C.uns Tribunal. It has gone beyond what was sought by the previous Liberal government. The government is incorporating into the legislation governing the work of the Ministry of Consumer Affairs amendments which should perhaps be in new legislation. The establishment of the Credit Tribunal does not belong in the Ministry of Consumer Affairs. The Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill is a complementary Bill. It makes clear the intent of the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill and, as I said, tidies up several amendments to the Motor Traders Act, the Travel Agents Act, and the Credit Act. I shall return to those in a moment. As I said, this is another set of Bills which attempts to tidy up mistakes emanating from the Ministry of Consumer Affairs. Honourable members must debate the Bills and consider their purpose. Qauses 1 to 4 of the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill deal with procedural matters required only as a consequence of other amendments. Clause 5 is probably the most significant clause because it refers to appeals against the determinations of the authority. Again, the government has not got it right. Qause 5 is related to clause 6, which establishes a Credit Tribunal. Perhaps the Minister for Local Government might reply to my points on that clause. Proposed new section 66 (1) provides that: There is established a Credit Tribunal which shall consist of­ (a) a Chairperson appointed by the Governor in Council; and (b) such number of Deputy Chairpersons as are appointed by the Governor in Council; and (c) such number of persons who represent the interests of the regulated credit industry as are appointed by the Governor in Council; and (d) such number of persons who represent the interests of consumers as are appointed by the Governor in Council. Unlike the position with regard to other tribunals that come under the network of the Ministry of Consumer Affairs, there is no legal prerequisite for the chairperson or members of the Credit Licensing Authority to have a legal background. I would like to know why there is not that legal prereqmsite because it is important that the Credit Licensing Authority has the power to refuse licences to credit providers. It can not only refuse licences to new applicants but can also give credit to existin~ credit providers. The refusal of a licence could be serious and could destroy a multtmillion dollar business and throw hundreds of employees out of work as a consequence. The Credit Licensing Authority is able to proceed in a relatively casual manner, and so it should. It can regulate its own proceedings, and so it should. Appeals can be taken from that tribunal to the Supreme Court. One of the weaknesses in the Credit Tribunal is that a barrister is not in charge of it. You, Mr President, with your legal training would understand the importance in this complex area of the need to have competent legal advice and direction given to the tribunal in the course of its functions. There is some inconsistency between proposed sections 68 (4) and 69 of the Bill. Proposed section 68 (4) provides that: A member of the tribunal is not, in respect of the office of member, subject to the Public Service Act 1974. Credit Bill and Licensing Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 463

Yet proposed section 69 makes it clear that some members-presumably the chairperson and the deputy chairperson appointed under proposed section 66 (1) (a) and (b) respectively-are officers of the Public Service. The term "office of member" in proposed section 68 (4) may refer to members appointed under proposed section 66 (1) (c) and (d). Alternatively, proposed section 69 may refer to members of the Public Service who are appointed on the off-chance to the tribunal. In either case, the provisions are ambiguous. This is another indication of sloppy drafting. Proposed section 73 (b) makes it possible for an unqualified person to be a party to a tribunal act or determination which cannot then be deemed invalid. This is not an unusual provision in the establishment of such tribunals. Proposed section 80 (3) has a minor alteration from section 69 (3) in that the tribunal could conceivably make a determination without waiting for the Supreme Court to rule on a point of law reserved for it by the tribunal itself. That is of concern. It could allow an incident to be disputed in a higher court where the judge could interpret the difference between the Act and the Bill as an "obvious omission" as the common law allows. However, there is the possibility ofa strictly literal interpretation of proposed section 80 (3), in light of the repeal of section 69. All that seems sensible to me, but any layperson reading the provision would find it difficult to understand. The mind boggles at the thought of how confusing it would be if this Bill were not written in simple English! Proposed section 81 replaces section 70 of the Credit (Administration) Act. The Small Claims Tribunal Act, under which disputes are currently heard, precludes qualified legal representation for claims under $3000, notwithstanding the consent of both parties to the dispute, and this is embodied in section 70 (2) of the Credit (Administration) Act. The proposed section would remove claims from the ambit of the Small Claims Tribunal Act, and hence the government has chosen to allow legal representation for all claims before the Credit Tribunal. There is no protection for a party that may be unfairly disadvantaged by this as section 70 (2) (b) currently provides. Perhaps the government will propose an amendment to ensure this protection, because it has not got it right. I could go through an extensive list indicating the variances that should be corrected within the Bill. Proposed section 85B replaces section 76 of the principal Act and provides that for a prescribed fee, if any, any person may request a copy of the reasons for determination. Previously, only the parties to the proceedings or the Director of Consumer Affairs was entitled to a copy. One wonders what could happen if there was no provision to exempt such persons from any fee. It is nevertheless conceivabled that a party to the proceedings would be made to pay a fee to obtain copies of the determination. I maintain that the expression "any person" should not be inserted in the Act. Frequently the disputes are private disputes between the two parties concerned. It is not always desirable that the hearings be open and on the public record. There are other means of dealing with such disputes because stickybeaks could obtain a copy of a determination if there were not that provision. The Opposition foreshadows that it will move amendments to the Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill during the Committee stage. Although the Bills are long and complex, they have been debated a number of times, yet the government has not got the right. The Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill amends Part II of the Credit (Administration) Act. Part 3 of the Bill makes several amendments to the Motor Car Traders Act. Part 4 of the Bill makes several amendments to the to the Travel Agents Act, and Part 5 makes several amendments to the Credit Act. Those Acts are of 464 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Credit Bill and Licensing Bill enormous complexity and, together with the regulations, are difficult for a layperson to understand. The Credit Licensing Authority has no requirement for leJPlI qualifications, but the Motor Car Traders Act and others provide for that qualificatIon. Line 39 of page 11 of the Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill states: 9. In section 95 (1) of the Principal Act ... It is not good English. It should read "in the Principal Act". One can pick out many words like this in the Bill that are obviously inappropriate. I do not want to waste too much time on the Bills. Honourable members are often involved in enormous time and trouble in continually correcting errors made in Bills. I regret the waste of time brought about as a result of these problems. The intent of the proposed legislation is in order. The government is intent on introducing more re$Ulations to cover matters that should be easily attended to. I foreshadow that it IS the Liberal Party's intention to introduce the traditional disallowance provision into the Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill. The Opposition does not intend to proceed in that direction with the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill because it has been advised by the Clerks that it is unnecessary. Consequently, the opposition will not seek to amend that Bill. However, in the Committee stage it will seek to amend the Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The House has formally resolved to debate cognately the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill and the Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill; but with the greatest of respect, Mr President, I have chosen to handle them separately. Although they may be related by some stretch of the imagination, the connection is tenuous. Both Bills are complicated and it was a poor decision to complicate them even further by attempting to debate them together. The Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill has two purposes. The first is to amend and clarify the appeal provisions relating to determinations made by the Credit Licensing Authority. Perhaps it is necessary to go back a step or two to understand that purpose. In 1984 the House passed the Credit (Administration) Act, which established that a person shall not carry on a business of providing credit unless he is a holder of a credit provider's licence. That Act specifically excluded banks, public authorities, life assurance companies, credit and building societies. It also excluded any contract where the interest charge was not more than 14 per cent, of where the contract was secured by mortgage and the interest rate was not more than 16 per cent. All other persons providing credit and charging an interest fee greater than that stipulated was required to hold a licence. A penalty of 100 units applied if the person did not hold the licence. To obtain the licence one had to apply to the Credit Licensing Authority established by the Act. Since then there have been some 400 applications for a credit provider's licence, of which some 300 applications have been granted. One of the interesting asides was that the credit providers in business at the time the Act was proclaimed were deemed to have been licensed until such time as the authority could hear an application. It is interesting that some of Victoria's bi~est finance companies such as Esanda Finance Corportion Ltd and Avco Financial SerVlceS Ltd are among those still to be processed by the authority. To be successful, an applicant was required to satisfy some fundamental criteria. He had to establish that he was not an undischarged bankrupt, which is not an outlandish provision. He had to prove he had not been convicted of an offence for fraud or dishonesty or had been gaoled for three months. He had to prove he was of Credit Bill and Licensing Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 465 goodJame and character, whatever that meant. He had to establish his intent to meet his responsibilities efficiently, honestly and fairly under the Act. Anyone over the a$e of eighteeen years or a body corporate is entitled to apply for that licence. Until it IS either surrendered or cancelled the licence is held by meeting the requirements of the annual fee and the submission of an annual report. As a matter of interest, these licence fees are currently about $685 for each site. If a company has a branch structure, it is required to meet that $685 annual fee for each of its sites. That is a substantial licence fee. However, at the point of application or at any time after the granting of a licence, the licensee can be challenged on the grounds that I outlined by the Director of Consumer Affairs or by any other person in the community-and that is important. That challenge may prompt an inquiry by the Credit Licensing Authority. The authority make take no further action, but it may reprimand the licence holder, impose a fine, or require compliance with a condition; more importantly, it has the power to either suspend or cancel the licence. Given that these licence holders are among the biggest companies and that the provision of the licence in many cases represents the major-indeed, the sole-basis of their business, the licence becomes a valuable document. If the licence were lost for any reason, the effects on the company would be catastrophic, not to mention the impact on its employees. The applicant or licence holder has a right of appeal to the Supreme Court against any determination of the Credit Licensing Authority. It is the mode of appeal that is now revisited by the Bill. The Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill is designed to make clear that the appeal to the Supreme Court is an appeal in the strict sense; in other words, it is not a rehearing. That was not made clear in the Act, and that is why the House must now establish that fact. The Supreme Court may allow the hearing of new evidence, but that evidence cannot relate to circumstances or matters that have arisen after the hearin$ conducted by the authority. The court may set aside the determination of the authonty, or it may send the matter with specific instructions back to the authority. However, if the cancellation if upheld, the licence holder's only course of action is to reapply and go to the bottom of the waiting list. This is therefore an important power and an important matter is being addressed by the Bill. The Minister in her second-reading speech states: This is of fundamental importance in achieving the speedy determination of licensing applications envisaged by the Credit Act, and recognises that business must have certainty in the application of the law. The National Party has some misgivings about the way the appeal process is provided, but it has been assured by the Australian Finance Conference Ltd that the amendments have been extensively negotiated and that the conference is happy with them. On that basis the National Party supports that aspect of the Bill. the second effect, and perhaps the most important, of the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill is the establishment of a Credit Tribunal as distinct from the credit tribunals already in existence under the auspices of the Small Claims Tribunal. The National Party supports the concept ofa separate Credit Tribunal. The National Party wants to put on record the fact that it believes the Small Claims Tribunal has fulfilled an important jurisdictional role since its inception in the early 1970s. Since that time, the cases heard by the tribunal have numbered approximately 4000 a year. That has now been reduced to approximately 3000 cases a year, but that is not a mark against 466 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Credit Bill and Licensing Bill the tribunal system. Evidence suggests that the decline in numbers is, to some degree, a product of the tribunal's success. It is argued by the tribunal itself that it has satisfied the market and that, with a stiifenins of consumer legislation in this State, it is more difficult for a shyster to survive In the first place. That may well be, and the National Party believes it is a mark in favour of the Small Drums Tribunal. It provides a mechanism that is inexpensive, speedy and practical, and the National Party supports it. The only criticism the National Party has-and it has been put on several occasions-is that the Small Daims Tribunal is restricted to an action brought by what is defined as a consumer. Upon readin$ the definition, one realises that a farmer is included but a small businessman who IS not a farmer is not included. That is unfair. If a small businessman buys, for example, a car and has a dispute with the supplier, if he intends to use the car solely for private purposes, he has an avenue through the Small Claims Tribunal to have the dispute heard. However, if the vehicle is to be used in his business, the door is closed to him. That is unfair, and I ask why that distinction should be made. Another feature of the Small Daims Tribunal is that it precludes legal representation. That feature is extolled as one of its virtues. The National Party has no argument with that, but it makes me wonder why the government would, in the next breath, talk about introducing the same concept in relation to the Magistrates' Court Bill, which is listed on the Notice Paper in the other place. It is clear that, at least to some extent, any change of that nature to the hierarchy of the Magistrates Court must impact upon the role of the Small Daims Tribunal. The Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill provides for a new Credit Tribunal comprising three members. That is practical when there is no real restriction upon the monetary level of any dispute heard before the tribunal. Perhaps that is the best argument as to why the Credit Tribunal should be divorced from the Small Daims Tribunal. Many of the cases that will come before the Credit Tribunal in the normal course of events may involve amounts up to several million dollars. No-one in this Chamber would define that as being a small claim. In practical terms the Credit Tribunal will be principally involved with disputes arising in relation to section 85 of the Credit Act, which states that, where a credit provider fails to comply with the Act and that non-compliance gives the debtor a loophole in the contract, the tribunal may hear an application from the credit provider and make a determination as to the extent to which the debtor should be bound by the contract. In many instances, there have been disputes between a credit provider and a customer and it has been held that the credit provider has not complied with the Act. But for this provision, that would allow the debtor to pay no interest. That issue is covered by section 85 of the Credit Act. The National Party understands that there are many cases in the pipeline involving that type of dispute, especially relating to a variance or alleged variance between the interest rate stipulated in a credit contract and the rate ultimately charged upon the debt. Several hundred farmers apparently come within that classification as a result of contracts taken in respect of large Items of machinery. The National Party is convinced the Credit Tribunal will have an important and immediate role. It is on that basis that the National Party supports the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill. However, I am absolutely astounded by the terminology of the Bill. I spent an entire day trying to establish what the Bill does. It is incredibly complicated, and I cannot understand why it should be so. It was not until I got to the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 467 amendment dealing with the Small Claims Tribunal that I came to understand where the head of power for the new Credit Tribunal was derived. One must go to the second last page of the Bill and trace through the consequential amendments to other Acts. It turns out that the definition of a tribunal, which relates to another Act altogether, is the mechanism by which the Credit Tribunal is to gain power. I cannot believe that anyone in his right mind would wish to make the trail so complicated. I lodge a complaint about that because it is absurd that proposed legislation should be structured in that mode. On the same tack, I lodge a complaint about the terminology in proposed new section 81, which states that a party to an application to or proceedings before the tribunal may appear and be heard personally or by a duly qualified legal practitioner. No-one expects to appear before the tribunal and be heard by a legally qualified practitioner; they expect to be represented by such a person. ' I wonder who dreams up this obtuse way of strangling the Queen's English. The Bill could be improved dramatically in that respect but, apart from that, the National Party supports the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill. As to the Licensin~g Authorities (Amendment) Bill, although it has some important ramifications and effects, its application is relatively simple. It seeks to standardise the proceedings before the various licensing authorities: the Credit Licensing Authority-which relates to the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill-and those authorities operating in the travel agency and motor car trader sectors. To that extent, the changes are minor. They allow a question of law coming before those licensing authorities to be referred to the Supreme Court. They prohibit any false and misleading statements by witnesses appearing before them, and I wonder why that statement needs to be made in the proposed legislation. The Bill also enables licensing authorities to fix their own times of hearings and to retain evidentiary documents produced in the course of proceedings before them. I also wonder why that needs to be included. However, the National Party views the amendments as being sane and logical. On that basis, I signify the support of the National Party.

CREDIT (ADMINISTRATION) (AMENDMENT) BILL The PRESIDENT-Order! I shall deal with the Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill first. The question is: that this Bill be now read a second time. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and committed. Clauses 1 to 5 were agreed to. Clause 6 The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: 1. Clause 6, page 4, line 19, after "office" insert "if, in the opinion of the Governor in Council- (a) the member is unable, by reason of physical or mental illness, to perform the duties of the office; or (b) the member is incompetent; or (c) the member has misbehaved.". This amendment provides that a member of the credit tribunal can be removed only on specific grounds such as becoming ill and being unable to perform the duties of the office. 468 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Credit (Administration) (Amendment) Bill

The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I am concerned inasmuch as I have not seen the amendments before and would like to have had the courtesy of seeing them. As Mr Hallam and I have said before in the debate, the credit Bills are written in legalese and are very complex, and Mr Hallam indicated that it took him a full day to read and understand the Bill. Now we are presented with these amendments and I would like to have the assurance of the Miruster in her remarks perhaps now that these amendments do not alter the intent of the Bill. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-In the short time that I have had a chance to read through this amendment, it seems to me that it is relatively straightforward and should represent no concern but, like my colleague who spoke before me, I must register a protest that amendments should be brought in at the eleventh hour without the courtesy of making sure they were available to the other parties. This makes a very complex Bill that much more complicated. I do not intend to oppose the amendment but I register a protest at the way it has been introduced. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I express myapoloJies to the two previous speakers for not circulating those amendments earlier this everung. I was not aware they had not received them. As to the content of those amendments, I have been given to understand that the amendments should \,rovide no cause for concern and that they arise directly out of concerns expressed In debate in another place. The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: 2. Clause 6, page 8, lines 5 and 6, omit proposed sub-section (7). This amendment deletes the provision prescribing that a party may examine, cross­ examine and re-examine witnesses. The provision unintentionally alters the general law on this topic and so is being deleted. The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: 3. Clause 6, page 11, lines 34 to 37, omit proposed sub-section (3). The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I do not believe, even with all the goodwill in the world, that we should be prepared to pass amendments without some explanation as to what they do. If that is what is intended, I will seek to have progress reported so that honourable members have a chance to study the amendments. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-The amendment deals with the provision enabling the tribunal to delegate functions and powers to the Credit Registrar. The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I am assured that all these amendments are consequential and I assure my colleague, Mr Hallam, that I have had a reasonable expert assurance that they are consequential and, from the Opposition's point of view, honourable members should have no concerns. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-It is my understanding that the majority of these amendments are consequential upon the first one, if that assists honourable members in their understanding. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-Did the Minister say the majority of them or all of them? Are we led to believe that these are all consequential to the thrust-- The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-All the remaining amendments are consequential on the first one. Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 469

The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Govemment)-I move: 4. Clause 6, page 11, line 38, omit "(4)" and insert "(3)". 5. Clause 6, page 12, line 1, omit "(5)" and insert "(4)". 6. Clause 6, page 12, line 1, omit "or (4)". 7. Clause 6, page 12, line 3, omit "Tribunal or". 8. Clause 6, page 12, lines 3 and 4, omit", as the case may be". 9. Clause 6, page 12, line 5, omit "(6)" and insert "(5)". 10. Clause 6, page 12, line 9, omit "(7)" and insert "(6)". 11. Clause 6, page 12, line 12, omit "(8)" and insert "(7)". The amendments were agreed to. The clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clauses. The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and the amendments were adopted. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Govemment)-I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. I thank the Chamber for its indulgence in making possible the consideration of those amendments without their having been circulated to honourable members. I give an assurance that with any Bill that I handle in future that will not happen again. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

LICENSING AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL The PRESIDENT-Order! The question is: that this Bill be now read a second time. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and committed. Clauses 1 to 4 were agreed to. Clause 5 The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Govemment)-I move: 1. Clause 5, page 3, line 27, after "office" insert "if, in the opinion of the Governor in Council- (a) the member is unable, by reason of physical or mental illness, to perform the duties of the office; or (b) the member is incompetent; or (c) the member has misbehaved.". The amendment provides for the circumstances where a member of the Credit Licensing Authority is unwell and is unable to perform the duties of the office. The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-The Opposition makes the same protest as it has done on previous occasions. I shall not say any more than that because the Minister has said that this practice will not occur in the future. The amendment was agreed to. 470 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill

The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: 2. Clause 5, page 9, line 15, after "Authority" insert "who must be a duly qualified legal practitioner". This amendment provides that the Registrar of the Credit Licensing Authority must be a lawyer. The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-The Opposition is pleased with that amendment because it picks up the remarks I made during the second­ reading debate and other honourable members made in another place. It is necessary that a legally qualified practitioner should be appointed to this position and I am appreciative of the Minister having agreed to that. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as was clause 6. Clause 7 The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: 3. Clause 7, line 19, omit "S5L" and insert "S5M". This amendment simply corrects one cross-reference. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as was clause 8. Clause 9 The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I move: 1. Clause 9, line 39, omit "9. In" and insert "9. (1) In". The amendment is consequential on the traditional amendment moved by the Opposition regarding the disallowance provisions being inserted in the Bill. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-As is the custom, the government does not accept the amendment. The amendment was agreed to. The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I move: 2. Clause 9, line 40, after this line insert- '(2) After section 95 (3) of the Principal Act insert- U( 4) Regulations made under this Act may be disallowed in whole or in part by resolution of either House of the Parliament in accordance with the requirements of section 6 (2) of the Subordinate Legis/ation Act 1962. (5) Disallowance under sub-section (4) is deemed to be disallowance by Parliament for the purposes of the Subordinate Legis/ation Act 1962.".'. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 10 to 13. Clause 14 The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: 4. Clause 14, line 32, before "is" insert "that". The amendment corrects a grammatical error in the drafting. The amendment was agreed to. Sessional Orders 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 471

The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: 5. Clause 14, line 37, after "(iii)" insert "is a body corporate". The amendment again corrects a grammatical mistake in the Bill. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I cannot accept that explanation from the Minister, because on my reading of the amendment it changes the thrust of clause 14. Is the Minister suggesting that the exclusion of several lines from the Bill and the insertion of "is a body corporate" is merely a grammatical change? The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-It is important to read amendment No. 5 in conjunction with amendment No. 4, which was to insert "that" before "is" in line 32 of clause 14. Section 33 (1) (b) of the principal Act will now read, in part: ... that is commenced to be wound up or is placed in official management, the liquidator or receiver of the body corporate" substitute... Then in line 37, before the words "in respect of the property" should be inserted the words "is a body corporate". I accept that the amendment is confusing at this sta$e, but it is my advice that the two amendments should be read together and that It is simply a correction of a grammatical error. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I cannot accept that explanation. I ask for some clarification as to what line 37, as quoted in amendment No. 5, will in fact read in the Bill. Progress was reported.

SESSIONAL ORDERS The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-I move: That so much of the Sessional Orders be suspended as would prevent the consideration of the Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill and any new business transmitted from the Assembly being taken after 10 p.m. during the sitting of the Council this day. The motion was agreed to.

STATE CASUAL EMPLOYEES SUPERANNUATION BILL The debate (adjourned from March 22) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The National Party grudgingly supports the State Casual Employees Superannuation Bill, not because it disagrees with the concept but because it has to acknowldge that the Bill has been made necessary by the thrust of the 1986 national wage case decision. The principle involved is to apply superannuation to casual employees. The concept of casual employees involves the recognition that the pay awarded to casual employees has a loading factor built into it and that the loading factor is specifically to compensate for the fact that the employee is denied entitlements in other areas. No pro rata holiday payor pro rata sickness benefits are applicable. Until now I understood that no pro rata superannuation benefit applied; apparently that 472 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 State Casual Employees Superannuation Bill was a misapprehension from which I suffered. Certainly no pro rata long service leave applied. As a result of the national wage case decision in 1986 whereby a 3 per cent increase was granted in the form of ordinary time earnings and their equivalent in superannuation, no exclusion was made for those who were employed on a casual basis. That was a fundamental mistake in the award. What should have happened is that the commission should have increased the casual rates and overcome the anomaly now presented to the House in the Bill. The concept of applying superannuation to casual employees' awards will create an administrative nightmare because in each case the employee will be required to submit 3 per cent of casual ordinary time earnings to this public sector superannuation fund. The funds will simply accumulate and earn interest to benefit the casual employee upon retirement, whenever that may be. That is a problem posed by the concept. How does one determine when a casual employee has retired? It begs definition and is one of the problems in the Bill. The funds will accumulate and earn interest after the Commonwealth government has taken its cut in the form of taxation. It should be no surprise to anyone that the Commonwealth government would line up for its cut! The funds will accumulate after allowance has been made for the provision of a death and disablement benefit. It has been arranged that the State Casual Employees Superannuation Fund will absorb the old Superannuation Lump Sum Fund which was established for married women when they were specifically excluded from the State Superannuation Fund. That fund was closed in 1984; it has only 100 members as of today and I understand that arrangements will be made to keep their benefits under that fund quite separate. The National Party opposes the concept of superannuation being applied to casual employees because it breaks the definition of casual employment, and my party rues that; in addition, it will create unnecessary administrative tasks. The National Party supports the Bill, under protest. Those who are responsible for adjudicating wage claims, thereby making this Bill necessary, should have had more sense than to make a decision leading to this complication. The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-The State Casual Employees Superannuation Bill establishes the State Casual Employees Superannuation Fund, which is an accumulation fund. It has both employee and employer contributions and takes over, as Mr Hallam said, the lump sum that was previously held for those married women who could not enter the State Superannuation Fund. The scheme is part of the continuing process of reform in the public sector superannuation area, but it does seem a paradox that superannuation should be granted for casual employees, because the notion of superannuation in the past had always been that it was a form of reward or extra benefit for those longstanding employees who had a commitment to their employer, and the employer rewarded that commitment by providing superannuation benefits in the form of a superannuation contribution to match the employee contribution. Casual employees have a loading in their hourly rate that takes care of sick pay and holiday pay. Again it is obvious that the casual wage rate is being loaded even further because under some awards employees not only receive the loading but also accumulate a sick pay entitlement. The Bill extends that even further because, as Mr Hallam said, through the national wage case that 3 per cent is paid by the employers into a fund for the benefit of casual State Casual Employees Superannuation Bill 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 473 employees. That occurred in the private sector and is now being extended into the public sector. The Opposition does not oppose the Bill but has some reservations. The Bill will cover casual employees in the State sector, mainly those in the Teaching Service and in the Totalizator Agency Board. The employees will have to make contributions of 3 per cent, as I said before. Our main concern is about the open-ended nature of the future commitment of any unfunded liabilities because the Bill provides that any shortfall in those liabilities will be met from the Consolidated Fund. This is another of those occasions where, because of legislation, large amounts of money may be payable from the Consolidated Fund in the future. That is a hidden future cost that is being stored up for future generations by the present generation. One of the other concerns is that the actuarial appraisal provisions are always too open ended. We know what happened with WorkCare where there was inadequate opportunity of considering how the actuarial provisions would operate. We are concerned that this Bill also allows the opportunity of concealing the true position. We ask the Treasurer to give some commitment about those actuarial appraisal provisions so that we know exactly the basis of the assessment of the unfunded or funded liabilities. The Bill also establishes a five-member board. It closes the existing lump sum fund and transfers all of its assets. It also extends the Borrowing and Investment Powers Act to this board. The Opposition does not oppose the Bill but has the concerns that I have outlined. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-In response to the actuarial issues raised by Mrs Varty, I am happy to take up her concerns with the Treasurer and provide her with a response in due course. In respect to the amendments that have been distributed, I was not aware that the officers of the Department of Management and Budget had not circulated those amendments and I apologise for the fact that the Opposition has not seen them. I shall take the Chamber through the intention of the amendments for consideration and response as honourable members see fit. The Bill was presented to Parliament in the session between the 1988 election and the end of the year. It was intended that the Bill should be debated and passed in that session but because of time pressures it was not passed by the Lower House until recently. A number of dates in the Bill were set in anticipation of the passage of the Bill before Christmas and those dates need to be modified by amendments because of the time at which the Bill is now being dealt with. Parliamentary Counsel has suggested that these amendments provide an opportunity for correction of an ambiguity in the present definition of "employing authority" and this is dealt with in amendment No. 1. The amendments are procedural and four of them fall into the category of needing to be dealt with because the dates that were set in the Bill first being considered in the spring session of 1988 are not relevant or appropriate for consideration at this time. 474 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Licensing Authorities (Amendment) Bill

The first amendment provides for the definition of "employing authority" to be altered by deleting the words "created by or under any Act or any other body" so that the defirution reads: "Employing Authority" means any body that the Treasurer by instrument declares to be an employing authority for the purposes of this Act. The definition is confined to the Treasurer using an instrument to declare an employing authority and removes the ambiguity that would have arisen partly because there is such a body of legislation that it may produce some absurdities in respect of redundant legislation if employing authorities are created by or under any other Act. I regret that the amendments have not previously been circulated but I hope the explanation I have provided assists the Committee in dealing with what I am foreshadowing beyond clause 2. The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. K. I. M. Wright)-Order! I inform the Committee that clause 2 relates merely to the date when the Act comes into operation. Ifhonourable members wish to respond to the Minister they will have the opportunity when the appropriate clause is considered. The Hon. D. R. WHITE-I am happy for Mrs Varty to speak by leave, ifnecessary, to clause 2. The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-I point out that I do not have responsibility for this Bill. Because we have not seen these amendments until now, I shall need to seek further advice on the Bill. I ask that progress be reported. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-I am happy for progress to be reported and I seek leave for the Committee to sit again on the next day of meeting. Progress was reported.

LICENSING AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL The House went into Committee for the further consideration of this Bill. Discussion was resumed of clause 14, as amended, and ofMrs Lyster's amendment: 5. Clause 14, line 37, after "(iii)" insert "is a body corporate". The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Govemment)-During the break it has been possible for me to dISCUSS this proposed amendment with members of the Liberal Party and the National Party. The intention of the amendment is now quite clear, and I believe it is accepted by those honourable members. The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I am grateful to my learned colleague Mr Chamberlain who has assured the Opposition that the amendment is in order. The Opposition is happy about it and prepared to see it passed. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clauses. The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and the amendments were adopted. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Govemment)-I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. In so doin$ I again apologise to the speakers from both the Liberal and National parties for Inadvertently failing to provide them with copies of the amendments so Adjournment 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 475 that they would be able to assure themselves that the amendments, in fact, addressed matters that were raised in debate in another place, and that the intention of the amendments was to take up issues raised in this debate. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

ADJOURNMENT Lakewood Estate, Knoxfield-Ambulance Service of Victoria-Birregurra and District Community Hospital-Alexandra High School-Public housing-Proposed Fitzroy Community Centre-Maroondah Social Health Centre-Otways land sale­ Proposed subdivision of Yallambie land-Liability of health funds-Australian Volunteer Coast Guard Association-City of Doncaster and Templestowe-Central Area Transport Strategy The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-I move: That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday, May 2. The motion was agreed to. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-I move: That the House do now adjourn. The Hon. G. B. ASHMAN (Boronia Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for Housing. The Urban Land Authority is auctioning 100 allotments on the Lakewood Estate, Knoxfield, this coming Saturday and Sunday. At present the land to be auctioned has no roads, no gas, no electricity, no water or drainage to any of the allotments. I am concerned that the land is being rushed onto the market before it is ready for sale and before people will be able to build on the allotments, and before the titles will be available to the purchasers. The terms of the sale are 10 per cent deposit and the balance in 90 days. At this stage, if there were to be some inclement weather it is most unlikely that the title would be available within 90 days. I understand that the roads must be completed or at least be close to completion before the title is likely to be issued for these residential blocks. M¥ real concern is not just that the title may not be available but that the land was preVIously part of the Knoxfield Horticultural Research Station. While the land was being used by the Department of Agriculture and Rural Affairs for a research station, part of the site was used as a toxic waste dump. I am advised, as of this afternoon, that approximately 110 drums bearing poison markings and the skull and crossbones insignia are on the site. There appears to have been no attempt to remove the drums from the site. As I understand it officers of the Environment Protection Authority have inspected the drums and have prepared a report. I ask for details of the information contained in the report to be made public prior to the auction. Also, will the intendin~ purchasers at both Saturday's and Sunday's auctions be advised that land in the VIcinity of the residential blocks is being auctioned? Will they be advised that toxic chemicals have been stored or buried on the area which I understand will be used as public open space? If that information is not to be made available to the intending purchasers, will the Minister cancel the auction? 476 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Adjournment

The HOD. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-I raise a matter for consideration by the Minister for Health. The Minister will remember that last week I raised a number of serious concerns about alleged mismanagement within the Ambulance Service-Victoria. I asked the Minister to examine those matters and to report back to the House. I would welcome that report and an explanation of the issues that I raised last week. The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province)-1 raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for Health concerning the Birregurra and District Community Hospital. Birregurra is a small but vibrant community situated to the south east of Colac. The small community hospital in the town depends heavily on local support; indeed, the hospital was built with the aid of money raised locally. Residents of Birregurra are concerned about a proposal to close the hospital and to replace it with a community health centre. I ask the Minister to visit Birregurra to take part in discussions with members of the local community, the hospital board and representatives of the shire so that she can gain first-hand appreciation of the health needs of that community before she commits the government to a decision that may affect the hospital. The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for the Arts who is the representative in this place of the Minister for Education. I have received representations from the Alexandra High School, supported by the Shire of Alexandra, concerning a reduction in the technical staffing component of that school since 1972. Figures given to me show a reduction in the number of technical teachers at the school, so much so that in the past couple of years the component factor has been reduced by 1·7, which amounts to a virtual loss of two teachers. The school council has voiced its concern because assurances that there would be no further reductions in staff have not been honoured. Indications are that by 1991 the staffing component factor will have been reduced considerably. Alexandra Hi$h School has a very successful technical component and provides technical education for students who do not have access to a larger technical college. The deputy shire secretary is concerned about the matter and has asked me to take it up with the Minister for Education in an attempt to receive an assurance that the staffing allocations will not be further reduced and that the original allocation promised to the high school when it agreed to take on the technical teaching component will be restored. The Hon. G. H. COX (Nunawading Province)-I raise an urgent matter for the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction-a matter that he can resolve with the stroke of a pen. A woman with three children found herself in the situation where she could no longer care for them. Those children were placed in the Allambie Reception Centre and suffered trauma as a result. The aunt of the children, who is the sister of their natural mother, is now acting as their foster parent and has been receiving a foster parents allowance from Community Services Victoria for some weeks. The children's aunt has two children and lives in rented accommodation. Recently she has been told she will have to leave that accommodation because it is not suitable for five children to live in. The irony of the situation is that the aunt has applied for a Ministry of Housing and Construction house but has been told by the Ministry that she is ineligible because her income is too high. Unfortunately, the foster parents allowance she receives for caring for those three children is calculated as income, which makes a mockery of the compassion such a family should receive from the Ministry. If the children had stayed at the reception Adjournment 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 477 centre the cost of caring for them would have been approximately $3000 a week. There is a need for the Minister and the Minister for Community Services to establish guidelines to cope swiftly and compassionately with such cases. The Hon. R. S. de FEGELY (Ballarat Province)-I raise for the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction a matter which concerns his electorate. Some years ago the then Minister of Housing made a promise to establish a community centre in Brookes Crescent, Fitzroy, in the middle of the Fitzroy housing estate. Residents of the housing estate have had a lengthy battle to try to have the community centre established. There is a great need for the centre especially among young people, because the centre would given them somewhere to go in a densely populated area. The previous Minister allocated $160 000 to refurbish a vacant two-storey former commercial building in the middle of the estate, but so far nothing has come of that. Three years ago the Fitzroy City Council asked the then Minister for permission to proceed with the construction of the centre, but nothing happened. In the meantime the building decayed to such an extent that it has been demolished. Prior to the election, the previous Minister, now the Minister for Property and Services in another place, promised residents of the estate that the building would commence before Christmas 1988; but still nothing happens. I ask the Minister for Housing and Construction whether the $160 000 is still available and, if so, whether the promise will be kept, and when work will commence. The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for Health. Recently I visited the Maroondah Social Health Centre which has operated for a long time-since long before community health centres were the flavour of the month. The Maroondah Social Health Centre conducts a number of activity groups. People who attend those groups do so on Mondays and Wednesdays from 10 a.m. until 2 p.m. Most of those who attend have some form of physical or psychiatric disability. At present the centre is staffed by two occupational therapists and a variable number of volunteers. Problems have arisen because the percentage of those attending the centre who have psychiatric problems has increased rapidly; at present more than SO per cent of those who attend are in that category. That is placing a heavy burden on the small number of professional staff as well as making it difficult to recruit suitable volunteers. The health centre's committee of management is attempting to overcome the problem, because, although it wants to continue the program, it will not be able to do so beyond the end of June this year unless alternative arrangements are made. Three possible alternatives have been proposed, alternatives which I ask the Minister to seriously consider. The first proposal is that the Office of Psychiatric Services should provide two additional professional staff to assist the two groups. It would be of assistance if this could happen. They would either be occupational therapists or occupational therapist aides. Secondly, the centre could employ those staff with the necessary funding being provided through the Office of Psychiatric Services. Of course if neither of these options occurs it might be that the centre has to review the administration criteria of these groups and exclude those people who are presenting with psychiatric problems. That means that those people will no longer have access to activity programs, which are playing an important and valuable role in our community and the centre would regret having to possibly implement this course of action. I should not care for that course to be followed. 478 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Adjournment

I request that the Minister urgently examine the matter in the hope of arriving at a solution to the problem. It is clear that the number of people in our community who have psychiatric problems is increasing as a result ofthe deinstitutionalisation program, but they are not being helped in the way they should be because the resources are not being provided at centres like the Maroondah Social Health Centre. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction for the Minister for Planning and Environment in another place. It concerns a parcel of land that was purchased in November last year by the Smorgon family for use as a pine plantation. The parcel of land is situated beside the Ocean Road and the front of the hill faces the Ocean Road. At present the land is covered in what is virgin native forest. It has never been logged. It is of considerable conservation value from the tourism point of view. It would be a tragedy if the native forest was bulldozed so that a pine plantation could be planted. I understand an appeal has been lodged with the Planning Appeals Tribunal and, following the recent successful appeal against the Vic-Tree at Lavers Hill, conservationists and local people are confident that the appeal will be successful in this case. I believe it is in the interests of the government to have the appeal called in with a view to the possible purchase of that parcel of land by the government. I am informed that the land was sold to the Smorgons company last November for approximately $30 000. It would not be a large expense for the government. I understand there is sufficient local interest for the community to be prepared to make a contribution to that sum. I ask the Minister to pass this request on to his colleague. I know that Ministers are reluctant to call appeals in but in this instance it would be ofgreat benefit not only to the people of the area but also to Victoria generally. The Hon. B. T. Pullen-What was the size of the land? The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-I believe it is 300 hectares. The Hon. B. A. E. SKEGGS (Templestowe Province)-I ask the Minister for Housing and Construction, who represents the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands in this place, to clarify with his colleague the intention of the government for the future use of land behind the Yallambie Primary School. The land was originally set aside for school purposes. I also refer to land at Mont Park which is presently reserved for public open space but is under consideration for housing development. Residents in the Yallambie area, in fact in that whole region, are firmly opposed to the plan of the Urban Land Authority to subdivide the Yallambie land and develop 48 housing blocks in that area. These parcels of land have great environmental value as they are an important buffer zone between the residential areas. People in the region are concerned about this land being developed for housing and they are concerned about the loss of amenity to the area. I request the Minister to take up the issue with his colleague in another place. The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-I direct the attention of the Minister for Health the two questions that I asked of her last week, one particularly was associated with the liabilitx of health funds registered in this State, for which the government has some responslbility. I particularly refer to such organisations as the Hospital Benefits Association Ltd, Manchester Unlty Total Care, the IOOF ofVictoria Friendly Society, and so forth. The Minister did not know the answer at that time and, at page 46 of H ansard she is reported as having said: I shall attempt to have an answer for him early next week. Adjournment 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 479

Consequently, I ask whether she has that answer tonight. The Minister will remember that on the following Wednesday night I directed a hospital matter to her attention. The PRESIDENT-Order! Is that the same issue? The Hon. G. P. CONNARD-It is more an issue for you, Mr President, in as much as-- The PRESIDENT-Order! Unless it is the same issue Mr Connard may not refer to it. The Hon. G. P. CONNARD-The copy of the daily Hansard does not contain the matter raised or the response for the night of Wednesday, 12 April. The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON (Hi$inbotham Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister Assisting the Treasurer In Budget Expenditure the Australian Volunteer Coast Guard Association. The association wrote to me sayin, that it was aggrieved that the National Safety Council of Australia, Victorian Division should receive $100 000 from the government when the association has not received any funding whatever. It has also not received any money from the Federal government or local government. The association says that a commercial organisation such as the council should not have received $100 000. The Australian Volunteer Coast Guard Association makes the point that its volunteers turn out 365 days a year; that they protect the area of Port Phillip and Western Port bays, the eastern Victorian coastline as far as Point Hicks, and to the west as far as Apollo Bay; and that they provide special service and attention. They also look after the inland waters of Hume Weir and Lake Epallock. The association receives nothing whatever for this great public service, so I ask the Minister Assisting the Treasurer in Budget Expenditure to make representations to the Treasurer to determine whether it is possible to provide the association with some funding. Honourable members may have seen posters throughout Victoria stating that the Surf Life Saving Association needs rescuing; it is true-these bodies need to be rescued for the sake of Victoria. The Hon. J. G. MILES (Templestowe Province)-I raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for Local Government regarding an article in today's Sun about the proposal of the Doncaster and Templestowe City Council to compulsorily acquire the property of Mr and Mrs Godwin, who have lived in their home for some 25 years. The article states: Doncaster-Templestowe council plans to compulsorily acquire the Godwin house and two others to make way for a car park. The background to this matter is simply that the council originally planned to compulsorily acquire land at Tunstall Square to build nine shops. It has now changed its mind and decided to build only five shops and to acquire the house opposite. The exercise at Tunstall Square is purely for entrepreneurial and commercial purposes, so one cannot say that the council's proposed acquisition relates in any way to a public utility such as a library. In regard to the proposal to evict these old people from their home, which has received tremendous publicity in today's Sun, I ask: does the Minister support the proposed action of the Doncaster and Templestowe City Council to compulsorily acquire the home of an elderly couple at Tunstall Square when the sole purpose of that acquisition is to maximise the value of council-owned property and to assist the council in its commercial and entrepreneurial activities? If the Minister does not support that decision, what action, if any, does she propose to take? 480 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Adjournment

The Hon. REG MACEY (Monash Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction, who is the representative in this place of the Minister for Transport, the Central Area Transport Strategy draft of December 1988. There is much concern in the bayside suburbs in my province, Port Melbourne, South Melbourne, and St Kilda specifically about two recommendations in that draft strategy. One recommendation is that a link be constructed between the Tullamarine Freeway and the Charles Grimes Bridge and the other is that there be reduced traffic in Swanston Street. Both of those proposals will lead to an increase in traffic on the bayside road network. The city engineer of the South Melbourne City Council, Mr lan Robins, has prepared a submission on the Central Area Transport Strategy-which is being carried out by the Road Transport Authority-which directs attention to how much damage this will cause to the environment of the inner bayside area. That has been identified by this and previous governments as a significant recreational area for the people of Melbourne and a significant tourist attraction to those who visit the area. Surely, that is at least as important as the commercial development of the Yarra River area. According to Mr Robins, there will be a marked increase in the volume of traffic as a result of the two recommendations to which I have referred-the reduction of traffic in Swanston Street and the link between the Tullamarine Freeway and the Charles Grimes Bridge-and also as a result of the Sandridge project that the Minister for Major Projects is vigorously promoting. The South Melbourne City Council's submission states: Information currently before council would suggest that Beaconsfield Parade, Middle Park, could experience traffic volumes which would result in congestion at similar levels to that experienced on Queens Road at present. Ifit is assumed that natural growth will be 3 per cent per annum to reflect that of the past decade, an increase of 14 000 vehicles per day would result. In addition, a substantial volume increase is likely to result from the Sandridge project with lesser increases resulting from the other major developments. In an unconstrained situation, the net growth could be as high a 25000 vehicles per day. A ten-year program is being considered in the strategy. The present traffic volume on Beaconsfield Parade is approximately 40 000 vehicles a day, including some 4000 trucks. It is an absolute disaster area. The situation has not in any way been assisted by the construction of the West Gate Freeway, which cost the taxpayers some $200 million, because adequate measures to reduce the attractiveness of the beachfront route to through traffic have not been provided. I ask the government to consider rejecting recommendations of the strategy if they will result in an even greater degradation of our inner bayside, beachfront environment. Also, the residents of my province, the residents of the bayside area, those who go to the beaches for recreation, and I plead with the government to do something about reducing traffic volume in the bayside areas rather than promoting projects-as the Minister for Transport is currently doing-such as the western bypass, which will destroy the beachfront for generations to come. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education)­ Mrs Tehan directed to my attention a matter for the Minister for Education in another place. I shall transfer it to that Minister and have an answer prepared as soon as possible. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister Assisting the Treasurer)-I shall direct to the attention of the Treasurer the matter raised by Mr Lawson and provide him with an answer in due course about funds for the Australian Volunteer Coast Guard Association. Adjournment 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 481

The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-Mr Birrell will certainly receive in writing a detailed reply to the matter that he raised. I have received some advice about the matter he raised on Tuesday, 11 April. I am advised that the two incidents to which he referred did occur, although I believe the vehicle used was an administrative vehicle as distinct from an ambulance as such. The Hon. M. A. Birrell-I called it an ambulance station wagon. The Hon. C. J. HOGG-I would not, at any rate, regard it as a mitigating circumstance if the vehicle used was a vehicle other than an ambulance, but a vehicle within the ambulance service; I would not necessarily regard that as mitigation. I believe the episodes that occurred were fairly substantial as Mr Birrell described them. I understand that the regional superintendent of the Metropolitan Ambulance Service has been asked to counsel the officers involved in those incidents, explain to them that any operational vehicles must be used only in the course of their duties, and alert them to the fact that any breach of this instruction will lead to disciplinary action being taken in the future. I re~ard quite seriously the two episodes referred to, and I propose to reply to Mr Birrellln writing along those lines. In answer to Mr Chamberlain, I have thought a great deal about Birregurra, but I have not yet visited there. I believe Mr Butterworth, who is the Regional Director of the Barwon and South-Western Region, has had a lot of contact with Birregurra. I understand also that some contact with the Office of Rural Affairs has been made with a view to instituting a number of changes that Birregurra might accept; in one press statement that I read, people associated with Birregurra said they accepted that there would have to be changes. It is a question of the magnitude of the changes. I suppose Birregurra is in a similar situation to many country hospitals that are having to make modifications. Without going into some of the things that could be done, I indicate that there are several possible solutions. I shall visit the hospital and meet with community representatives, staff, and people who have an interest in it, but I shall not be able to achieve that for four or five weeks. I assure Mr Chamberlain that I will not do anything that will precipitate a sudden change or action in the meantime. I think that waiting for three, four or five weeks is likely to help provide a solution, as people are currently looking around for solutions. In answer to the matter raised by Mrs Varty, I was not aware of the activity programs conducted at the Maroondah Social Health Centre. I take it that the three alternatives she says the centre has are: two additional staff from the Office of Psychiatric Services-although they would probably be occupational therapists or occupational therapists aides; the centre employing staff with Office of Psychiatric Services funding; and the third alternative would be the exclusion of clients. The third alternative is obviously most undesirable. I shall take up the matter raised by Mrs Varty and consider the first two positive alternatives in conjunction with the Office of Psychiatric Services and work around one of those possibilities if that is feasible. I take the general point Mrs Varty is making: that it is important to have activities and recreation provided for people who are or have been clients of the Office of Psychiatric Services. I shall consider the matter raised and take action as soon as I can. In response to the matter raised by Mr Connard, I have had a written reply prepared which I am happy to hand to him on the rising of the House. Otherwise, I shall read it into the record. Session 1989-16 482 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Adjournment

The Hon. G. P. CONNARD (Higinbotham Province)-Could it be incorporated in the record? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I seek leave to have incorporated in Hansardthe letter dated 19 April 1989 and attachment, which forms the written reply to the matter raised by Mr Connard. Leave was granted, and the letter and attachment were as follows: Dear Mr Connard, I refer to your recent Parliamentary request for information regarding the financial viability of Victorian health insurance funds. Health insurance funds are registered under the National Health Act (the Act) and thus are the primary responsibility of the Commonwealth government. Registration under the Act requires compliance with a range of legislative conditions, one of which is the maintenance of a statutory level of fund reserves. The health funds provide the Commonwealth with quarterly statistical and financial returns which are used as the basis for an on-going audit of the financial viability of each fund. Access to the data contained within the quarterly returns is restricted to the Commonwealth and due to its commercial sensitivity is not published. An annual report entitled "Operations of the Registered Health Insurance Organisations" is published by the Commonwealth after being tabled in the Federal Parliament each year. The report provides a comprehensive summary of the operations of each registered health fund during the preceding financial year. At the present time my Department only has access to the last published annual report (1986-87), but I understand that the 1987-88 report will be presented to the Federal Parliament next month and will be generally available thereafter. The recent media attention surrounding the plight of some Victorian funds was generated by the publication of financial data which was purportedly leaked from the as yet unpublished 1987-88 report. Whilst I share your concern about ensuring that the interests of Victorian health fund members are protected I am not in a position to comment upon the accuracy of the unsubstantiated information published in the media. Nevertheless, it is true that some organisations are reviewing their future position within tl!e industry and my Commonwealth colleagues are maintaining close scrutiny over these events. I am unable to provide you with the current financial position of each Victorian health fund as the availability of that information is restricted to the Commonwealth. In this regard I would remind you that the 1987-88 report, when published, will be of limited value as the financial data contained therein is now substantially out of date and thus will not necessarily provide an accurate representation of a particular fund's current viability. A list of registered health insurance organisations is attached for your information.

Yours faithfully,

CAROLINE HOGG Minister for Health

Commonwealth ofAustralia Gazette Government departments 71 No. GN 2, 20 January 1988

National Health Act 1953 Part VI REGISTRATION OF ORGANIZATIONS NOTIFICATION in accordance with section 81 of the National Health Act 1953 showing particulars ofa subsisting registrations of organizations under section 73 of the Act. Adjournment 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 483

REGISTERED MEDICAL BENEFITS ORGANIZATIONS

State or Territory Name in respect o/which organization is registered

Ancient Order of Foresters Friendly Society in Queensland and Northern Territory Queensland

REGISTERED HOSPITAL BENEFITS ORGANIZATIONS

State or Territory Name in respect o/which organization is registered

Ancient Order of Foresters Friendly Society in Queensland and Northern Territory Queensland

REGISTERED HEALTH BENEFITS ORGANIZATIONS

State or Te"itory Name in respect of which organization is registered

.ACA Health Benefits Fund New South Wales .Advertiser Provident Society South Australia .AMA liealth Fund Limited New South Wales Albert District No. 83 Independent Order of South Australia Rechabites Salford Unity .Army Health Benefits Society New South Wales, Victoria. Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, Tasmania and Northern Territory .Associated Pulp and Paper Makers Council Health Tasmania Benefits Fund Australian Natives Association Victoria CDH Benefits Fund New South Wales .Cheetham Hospital Benefits Fund Victoria .Coats Patons Health Benefit Association (and New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland and Mutual Benefit Society) Tasmania .Commonwealth Bank Health Society New South Wales (including Northern Territory), Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania .CPS Health Benefits Society Queensland CUA Members' Benefits Friendly Society Queensland FAI Health Benefits Pty. Limited New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, Northern Territory and Tasmania Geelong Medical and Hospital Benefits Association Victoria Limited Goldfields Medical Fund (lnc) Western Australia .Government Employees' Health Fund New South Wales Grand United Order of Oddfellows Friendly Society Queensland 484 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Adjournment

State or Territory Name in respect of which organization is registered

Grand United Order of Oddfellows Friendly Society New South Wales of New South Wales Health Insurance Commission New South Wales Health Insurance Commission Victoria Health Insurance Commission Queensland Health Insurance Commission South Australia (including Northern Territory) Health Insurance Commission Western Australia Health Insurance Commission Tasmania Health Insurance Fund ofWA Western Australia Hospita Pty Limited New South Wales Hospital Benefits Association Limited, The Victoria Hospital Benefit Fund of Western Australia (lnc), Western Australia The Hospitals Contribution Fund of Australia Limited, New South Wales (including Northern Territory) The Illawarra Health Fund, The New South Wales Independent Order of Odd Fellows of Victoria Victoria Independent Order of Rechabites Victoria Latrobe Valley Hospitals and Health Services Victoria Association .Lysaght Hospital and Medical Club, The New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, Tasmania and Northern Territory Manchester Unity Independent Order ofOddfellows Victoria in Victoria Friendly Society Manchester Unity Independent Order of Oddfellows New South Wales Friendly Society in New South Wales Medical Benefits Fund of Australia Ltd New South Wales Medical Benefits Fund of Australia Ltd Queensland (including Northern Territory Medical Benefits Fund of Australia Ltd Tasmania Mildura District Hospital Fund Victoria .MIM Employees Health Society Queensland Mutual Community Limited South Australia (including Northern Territory) .Naval Health Benefits Society New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, Tasmania and Northern Territory .New South Wales Railway & Transport Employees' New South Wales Hospital Fund .New South Wales Teachers' Federation Health New South Wales Society NIB Health Funds Limited New South Wales Order ofthe Sons of Temperance National Division Victoria Friendly Society Adjournment 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 485

State or Territory Name in respect ofwhich organization is registered

.Phoenix Welfare Association Limited, The New South Wales (including Northern Territory), Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania .Professional and Technical Officers Health Society Queensland Protestant Alliance Friendly Society Grand Council Victoria of Victoria Protestant Alliance Friendly Society of Australasia, Queensland in Queensland (The Grand Council) Queensland District No. 87, Independent Order of Queensland (including Northern Territory) Rechabites Health Benefits Fund .Queensland Teachers Union Health Society Queensland Queenstown Medical Union Health Benefits Fund Tasmania .Reserve Bank Health Society New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, Tasmania and Northern Territory Rosebery Health Benefits Society Tasmania .SA Public Service Association Health Benefits South Australia Fund Incorporated SGIC Health Pty. Limited South Australia .South Australian Police Employees Health Fund South Australia Incorporated St Luke's Medical & Hospital Benefits Association Tasmania Switzerland Australia Health Fund Pty Ltd. New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, Tasmania and Northern Territory .The Sydney Morning Herald Hospital Fund New South Wales • Tramways Benefit Society Victoria United Ancient Order of Druids Victoria United Ancient Order of Druids Registered Friendly New South Wales Society Grand Lodge of New South Wales, The Western District Health Fund Ltd New South Wales Yallourn Medical and Hospital Society, The Victoria

• Restricted membership organizations which restrict eligibility for membership by reference to employment, a particular profession, professional association or union, or membership of Defence Force.

A. J. AYERS S6cretary The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-In respect of the matter raised by Mr Ashman, I have found that the processes used by the Urban Land Authority usually comply with the requirements of local councils and other authorities. I am surprised that he seems to suggest there is some degree of problem on the site to which he refers. I have a scheduled meeting with the Urban Land Authority tomorrow. I shall examine the matters raised and take whatever action is appropriate when I am certain of the situation. 486 COUNCIL 19 April 1989 Adjournment

Mr Cox raised a matter in respect of a woman with three children who has problems with accommodation and the treatment of her income for the purposes of being eligible for public housing. From the way he has described the case, it appears to be one that should be investigated. Ifhe supplies me with the details, I undertake to have the matter raised with the Ministry of Housing and Construction and with my colleague in another place, the Minister for Community Services, if there is a need for combined consideration on the matter. Mr de Fegely asked whether funds are still available to provide resources such as a community centre for the Brooks Crescent, Fitzroyarea. I am sure there are. The history he has given, as supplied to him, is a somewhat potted history of a complicated story. Some consensus must be reached on how the funds can be best spent. Some people want a capital amount and not recurrent funding; others consider it best to spend less on capital works and provide funding for resources. It is difficult to find agreement among the people in the community. Unfortunately the Fitzroy City Council has not been particularly helpful in the negotIations. Recommendations came from what was supposed to be a public consultation which involved only five or six people. I am not complaining about the council but referring to the difficulties experienced in the process. When the decision was made public, other people came out of the woodwork-as happens so often in these cases-and indicated that that was not what they really wanted. I am concerned to achieve as much consensus as possible on how the money should be spent as quickly as possible. The funds are not quarantined. The action taken will be for the benefit of the tenants in the area. Mr Mackenzie raised a matter in respect of land in the Otways which he regards as important because of the forest on it. It is now proposed that the land be cleared for pine planting by Smorgon Consolidated Industries, which bought the land. An appeal has been lodged by concerned people and will be heard by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. Mr Mackenzie suggests that the price of the land is $30000. If that is the price for 300 hectares, we could probably settle the matter with a whip round here. I shall obtain advice on the matter and discuss it with the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands. Mr Skeggs raised a matter relating to the Department of Conservation, Forests and Lands and the future use of land associated with the Yallambie Primary school and the area at Mont Park. He seemed to be expressing a view that people are concerned that the land is to be used for housing. The government considers housing quite seriously and takes whatever opportunities are offered. As I have said on other occasions, it is often important to try to achieve a balance between the provision of housing on sites that become available and the aspirations of local communities. I shall discuss the sites with the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands and advise Mr Skeggs of the status of discussions on the projects. Mr Macey raised a number of concerns about current transport planning issues in this electorate, in particular the recommendations arising from the central area transport draft report. The issue is complicated. The best I can do is to refer his concerns to the Minister for Transport so that he can provide an update of the current situation. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-Mr Miles raised a matter that received media coverage this morning. It was in respect of a report that the City of Doncaster and Templestowe is seeking to acquire certainly one and perhaps Adjournment 19 April 1989 COUNCIL 487 more properties, with the intention of building a car park attached to a related plan for some shops. He indicated that the plan is in keeping with the municipal enterprise provisions of local government legislation in some way. Mr Miles asked what I think and what I will do. Before answering, I stress that councils are at all times expected to act in the interests of the community they are elected to serve. I would expect that any councillors or council officers taking an action such as the action Mr Miles describes would do so only where they felt the greater good would be served. It is up to the City of Doncaster and Templestowe to make that judgment. If the council, in the process of its democratic procedures, decides that this is what it wants to do, I would want to be assured by the council that it is meeting with this couple to ensure that their housing needs are appropriately addressed. I do not know how the council would intend to do that. If the case referred to in the newspaper is factual­ and I am unsure that it is a factual report-obviously the couple have lived in the house for a considerable time and it would be very distressing for people at that age to be asked to relocate, particularly when the lady concerned is reported to have some memory loss problem. If the council is to take that action, it will have to treat the couple very sensitively. I do not know what I think about it: I am not sure that it is really within my Ministerial prerogative. It is of concern to me as a human being that a couple should be treated in such a way. I have not been asked to take any action in the matter. I have not investigated the veracity of the report in the newspaper, and until I do I am reluctant to commit myself to any course of action. The mbtion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 11.2 p.m. until Tuesday, May 2.

Supply (1989-90, No. 1) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 489

Tuesday,2 May 1989

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. A. J. Hunt) took the chair at 3.3 p.m. and read the prayer.

SUPPLY (1989-90, No. 1) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister Assisting the Treasurer), was read a first time.

WORKS AND SERVICES (ANCILLARY PROVISIONS, 1989-90, No. 1) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister Assisting the Treasurer), was read a first time.

POLICE REGULATION (AMENDMENT) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources), was read a first time.

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

ROYAL WOMEN'S HOSPITAL The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-I ask the Minister for Health whether it is a fact that more than 50 employees on the staff of the Royal Women's Hospital are being paid double time and a half to work on public holidays even though there is absolutely no work for them to do. Is it also a fact that the chief executive officer and the board of the hospital oppose those wasteful work practices imposed on them by the Hospital Employees Federation of Australia? Will the Minister support initiatives to ensure that public hospitals do not have to expend scarce taxpayers' funds on employing people to do nothing? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I read in one of yesterday's newspapers the item concerning the Royal Women's Hospital which stated that the chief executive officer is pursuing discussions with the union-in this case, the Hospital Employees Federation of Australia (No. 1 Branch)-the terms of various work practice issues. As I understand it, those issues may concern either the 4 per cent second-tier wage rise or award restructuring. I understand that allegations of this type are made within the system from time to time and I also understand that those issues are being pursued creatively and cooperatively at local hospital level.

TERTIARY EDUCATION IN WODONGA The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education will recall that, in answer to a question from me when the House last met concerning his somewhat unsuccessful negotiations in Launceston 490 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Questions without Notice with his New South Wales counterpart Or Metherell about the future of tertiary education in W odonga, he undertook to take certain initiatives in an endeavour to link tertiary institutions on either side of the border. Can the Minister inform the House about the initiatives he has taken and what progress has been made? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education)­ Yes, I am happy to answer. It is in fact the third time that Mr Baxter has brought the matter to my attention in the House and I do not blame him because it is an important issue. I must say that despite all my efforts we are not getting very far with the aforementioned Or Metherell, my counterpart in New South Wales. I met again with Or Metherelllast Friday in Canberra when we were attending a conference on training and he maintained the same position as he has all along: that he is not willing to talk about or to countenance a joint campus for higher education in Albury-Wodonga. I think Or Metherell is very ill-informed to maintain that position. He is suggesting a four-campus arrangement that he is proceeding with, which I believe includes Bathurst, Orange, Wagga, Albury and one other place. He is happy for Wodonga to join with a third university. I do not believe that would be beneficial to students in north-eastem Victoria. However, I am not rejecting it and this is the answer that I want to give Mr Baxter. When there was to be a meeting of politicians in that area last Friday week, I made it clear to Victorian politicians, particularly Mr Lou Lieberman of the Liberal Party, that I was willing to countenance discussions at any level with my counterpart in New South Wales if there were any chance that we might get a positive response to the prospect of a campus in Albury-Wodonga. In other words, I was not rejecting any possibility provided open discussions could occur. I know that was discussed at a meeting of politicians-I think Mr Baxter might have been present-but to no avail. The indications are still that Or Metherell is simply not interested in sustaining the idea of a major campus for that twin city connected with a major university elsewhere. It leads me to believe that in Victoria we will have to look at what I think is a good second option and that is connecting Wodonga with a major grouping of colleges to become a new university. The prospect is that we will have a grouping of colleges-a University of Victoria-of which Wodonga could become part. I think that is a good prospect but it saddens me that, in one of the great inland growth centres which began, of course, in the Whitlam era and was successful, we cannot have an agreement with a neighbouring State to establish a major university campus within that growth centre. It seems a pity to have to turn our backs on it but that seems to be the position.

AEROSPACE TECHNOLOGIES OF AUSTRALIA The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Ooutta Galla Province)-The Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources recently told the House of an important contract awarded to the former Government Aircraft Factory, now Aerospace Technologies of Australia-ASTA. Because of his strong support for that company and for development of the industry in the State, can the Minister advise the House of the further enhancement of that company's image in the aerospace industry? Questions without Notice 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 491

The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)­ I thank Mr Landeryou for his interest and for this particular question because it is quite clear that one of the major areas of value-added manufacturing potential in this State relates to the aerospace industry, the role of ASTA and the potential of Avalon. As Mr Landeryou has pointed out, I made an announcement in the House two weeks ago that AST A had been awarded a major contract with Boeing Commercial Airplanes in the United States of America to manufacture rudder systems for some of Boeing's aircraft. I am pleased to announce today that AST A, formerly the Government Aircraft Factory, has also been awarded a contract to assemble eight Seahawk helicopters for use by the Royal Australian Navy. The contract, with the American-based company United Technologies Sikorsky Aircraft, also includes the potential for a follow-up order of a further eight to fourteen Seahawks. Sikorsky will supply the basic Seahawk structure which AST A will then fit out and test fly. The contract will start within a couple of months at AST A's assembly plant in A valon. The first helicopters are expected to be collected next June. From the government's perspective, this is an exciting project because the aerospace capacity at Avalon airfield is being recognised by both Boeing and Sikorsky. It also means there will be continued interest not only by Boeing but also by British Airways and Qantas Airways Ltd for refits at A valon for repairs, maintenance and for any major fit-outs of existing aircraft and construction of aircraft. It will also maximise the potential of A valon. The Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology will be required to provide adequate skilled labour. The project will be a major source of employment for skilled labour and it will be a major employer of people in the western suburbs because A valon is ideally located between the western suburbs of Melbourne and Geelong. A valon has one of the best runways in the Southern Hemisphere. It therefore has an exciting potential in the aerospace field which puts Melbourne and Victoria in a good position when compared with the skilled labour shortages and lack of airport facilities in Sydney and other parts of Australia.

MUSEUM PROJECT The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I refer to the Minister for Major Projects his answer to a question I asked on 18 April about the architect to'be appointed to the new museum project to be built on Southbank. The Minister stated that at that time the architect had not been appointed and so he could not outline the design features that led to the appointment of the architect. In view of the fact that the Minister has announced that Daryl Jackson Pty Ltd has been appointed as architect to the project will the Minister now advise the House of the design features that led to his choice? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for Major Projects)-I am happy to respond to Mr Storey. I issued a press release last Friday stating that the office ofDaryl Jackson Pty Ltd has been awarded the museum project and that Mr Ken Woolley of Anchor, Mortlock and Woolley has been awarded the contract for the new library. In regard to the design elements, when selecting architects the selection is made on a number of grounds including the capacity of the firm to do the job, the background and the work the firm has done in the past. A document has been prepared by the person who acted as the secretary to the assessors, and that document is available. It examines in some detail the assessment of each of the firms that were considered. I am happy to make that document available to Mr Storey. 492 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Questions without Notice

Behind the question is perhaps a rather cynical suggestion that because I was once a partner of Mr Jackson there might have been something untoward about his firm's selection. I can assure Mr Storey that that is not so. The selection was totally objective. It would be entirely proper that a major firm such as that which Mr J ackson heads should enter into projects of this kind. In that regard I believe the end result will be that the major project will be an excellent one.

PUBLIC AUTHORITY DIVIDEND YIELD The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-I direct my question to the Minister Assisting the Treasurer in Budget Expenditure: given the need to estimate the dividend yield from the various public authorities in the framing of the 1989-90 Budget, and given that the trading performance of the Rural Finance Corporation can be expected to be adversely affected by its acquisition of the ill-fated Victorian Economic Development Corporation, what efforts have been made by the Treasurer to establish the expected decline in dividend flow from the Rural Finance Corporation, and with what outcome? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister Assisting the Treasurer)-It is the responsibility of the chairman, Mr Morton, and the chief executive, Mr Crawford, to provide advice from time to time to the Treasurer on the performance of the VEDC and the Rural Finance Corporation, which will take into account the capacity of the corporation to meet any dividend options, and it is for the Treasurer to consider that advice. I am not aware of any discussions that have been held in relation to that issue at this time. The Treasurer will form a view for the purposes of the Budget for 1989-90 based on the advice of Mr Morton and Mr Crawford.

RADIOTHERAPY UNIT FOR GEELONG The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I refer the Minister for Health to the cancer after-care group in Geelong which over the past ten years has relentlessly pursued the task of persuading the government to establish a radiotherapy unit in Geelong. Not only has that group been successful in persuading the government to establish the radiotherapy unit but also, according to reports, it has raised approximately $500 000. The people of Geelong and the after-care group were delighted when the former Minister for Health, now the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources, announced that the government would be providing for this essential service in the 1988-89 Budget. As there appears to be some doubt about funding, will the Minister for Health give an assurance that the commitment will be made and that funds will be available so that the project can proceed? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-The matter raised has been the subject of queries from time to time by members in the Geelong area. I am in the process of following up the funding details; it is that time of the year when all sorts of Budget details are being compiled. The information will be provided to all those interested in the project.

ART IN PUBLIC SPACES PROGRAM The Hon. R. S. IVES (Eumemmerring Province)-The Minister for the Arts announced last year a program designed to embellish and enhance our public buildings with works of art and designs to accord with Melbourne being an outstanding Questions without Notice 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 493 metropolis that is attractive to tourists, visitors and residents alike. Can the Minister inform the House what progress has been made and what steps have been taken to implement that program? The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-Mr Ives is correct, and I am happy to respond. I can announce today that the first successful enhancement project­ the World Congress Centre-is now close to finalisation. Yesterday the board of the World Congress Centre was presented with the Ministry for the Arts recommendation for major art work for that centre. This is the first result of the art in public spaces program announced last year, as Mr Ives indicated. The Ministry for the Arts has advised on and assisted with the selection of major art works for the enhancement of newly constructed buildings or buildings in the design phase. The program is such that Ministers who are in charge of new projects can elect, if they so wish, to take part in it, and a portion of the budget is applied to art work. Yesterday four commissions were approved, with more to follow. The total amount of art work for the centre is valued at $500 OOO-a not insignificant figure. The major piece is a glass sculpture for the atrium; this was awarded to Sydney-based artist Maureen Cahill. That will cost $135 000, and is a large draped sculpture which will be suspended from the ceiling in the major space of the centre. Lyn Boyd, a Melbourne-based artist, has been commissioned to do an etched glass piece for the foyer area. Elizabeth Gower, also a Melbourne-based artist, has been commissioned to create a major piece for the escalator enclosure. An artist who is well known to many members, Alex Selenitsch, another Melbourne-based artist, has been commissioned to design, in conjunction with the manufacturers, a 30-metre long grille for installation at the centre. The commissions mark the beginning of what all hope will be a new era for art in major public buildings; it is a most important program. The art works have been designed in consultation with the architect and interior designers during the building design process. It is an extraordinary success story and is somewhat unusual in Australia and elsewhere. The government is proud Victoria has been able to achieve progress. We will all enjoy the fruits of this process when the World Congress Centre opens in March next year.

GAS AND FUEL CORPORATION The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON (Higinbotham Province)-In March the Premier announced that the Gas and Fuel Corporation building would be demolished to create a vista. I ask the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources what provisions are being made for the various departments of the Gas and Fuel Corporation of Victoria that will be evicted from that building and what provision will be made on behalf of the corporation for the loss of its principal asset. Does the government propose to remit the public authority dividend tax payable by the corporation? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-As Mr Lawson would be aware, the Gas and Fuel Corporation has renovated a building next to St Paul's Cathedral, across the road from its present headquarters in Flinders Street which it does not yet occupy. That building has been superbly renovated. The corporation is also planning, as part of its building program, to consider locating some of its departments in a separate additional buildin~ that will be owned by the corporation. Currently, it is leasing the Princes Gate bullding. A formal decision about 494 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Questions without Notice that second proposed building has not been made at this stage. When that decision has been made, I shall inform Mr Lawson.

FIRST HOME OWNERS SCHEME The Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western Province)-Will the Minister for Housing and Contruction inform the House what action he intends to take to overcome the bizarre anomaly that a family must have at least one child to qualify for any benefit under the government's first home owners scheme? The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-As I said in answer to a previous question, the first home buyers scheme is currently under review and the Victorian government is makin~ a submission to the Federal government on its operation. Because the situation in VIctoria has been better than in other States in terms of affordability, the funds available to Victoria have been totally taken up. When reviewing the scheme I shall consider any anomalies in the criteria for eligibility to that scheme, including that mentioned by Mr Best.

ROAD FUNDING REPORT The Hon. JEAN McLEAN (Boronia Province)-A report on road funds to local government was released last week. Will the MinIster for Local Government inform the House of the details of that report? The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-The report was tabled at the first State-Local Government Consultative Council meeting last week. I was pleased to have presented this report, and the Municipal Association of Victoria and the Metropolitan Municipal Association Inc. were equally pleased to receive it. This is the first time that the State has had a clear explanatIon of the status of road funding payments made to municipalities. Road funding is the largest State transfer to local government, comprising $107·5 million in the past financial year. As you would know, Mr President, road funding is the lifeblood of many municipalities, especially in rural Victoria. It was essential to have an agreed factual statement endorsed by State agencies as a starting point for a process by which municipalities' access to funding could be improved. In keeping with my frequent commitments, I shall be providing each municipality in the State with a coPY of this paper to ensure informed discussion on matters of vital concern to municipahties. ThIS will also ensure that municipalities can continue to contribute to the proceedings of the consultative council. The paper examines trends in funding over the past ten years. It divides funds between the different classes of roads, lays out the distribution by the Road Construction Authority for its direct works and, especially, lays out municipal works programs to local rural arterial roads and urban arterial roads. I am looking forward to continuing to work with the Municipal Association of Victoria, the Metropolitan Municipal Association Inc. and the Ministry of Transport in working out a process which will enable us to report to the second consultative council on a productive way to examine something that has been an ongoing concern to municipalities throughout the State.

GAS AND FUEL CORPORATION The Hon. M. T. TEHAN (Central Highlands Province)-I direct my question to the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources. In view of the Auditor-General's qualification, will the Minister explain why the Gas and Fuel Corporation's Questions without Notice 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 495 superannuation board failed to make any allowance in its 1988 financial statement for losses anticipated by the corporation from its investment in Wallace International Ltd? The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry; Technology and Resources)­ I refer Mrs Tehan to the annual report ofthe Gas and Fuel Corporation Superannuation Fund for the year ended 30 June 1988. In the chairman's report, among other things, it states: The surplus for the year amounted to $8 008 000, which together with the carried forward surplus from previous years provides a total of$292 403 million in members' funds ... The surplus was achieved despite the implementation, as from 1 September 1987, of comprehensive benefit improvements of a magnitude unequalled in the fund's history ... The Auditor-General has drawn attention to the fact that included in the financial statements are shares in a company valued at $5·6 million as at 30 June 1988, which subsequent to, that date suffered a significant erosion in market value. . The administrators acknowledge this to be so, but regret that no reference was made to the fact that also, subsequent to balance date, there was significant appreciation in the value ofother shares that substantially offset the quoted erosion. The chairman's statement read in conjunction with the financial accounts provides an informed basis on which honourable members can view the activities of that fund.

CIGARETTE ADVERTISING The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE (Melbourne West Province)-My question is directed to the Minister for Health, and I must confess that I ask the question as a non-reformed smoker: will she inform the House as to what impact the government's reforms to cigarette advertising have had on the incidence of smoking by young people? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-I thank the unreconstructed Mrs Coxsedge for her question; it really does apply to young people, and today the results of the survey carried out by the Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria-indeed, its ce~tre for behavioural research in cancer-were released. I am delighted to be able to inform honourable members that it appears that the incidence of smoking in the twelve to fifteen-year-old age group has decreased in recent years. A survey was conducted of 4500 students from 71 government and non-government schools, and the results indicated a decrease from approximately 13 per cent oftwelve­ year-old students smoking in 1984 to about 6 per cent in 1987. During the presentation of these statistics some generous comments were made by Dr Nigel Gray of the Anti­ Cancer Council of Victoria about Parliament having passed the Tobacco Bill and about members of the Legislative Council who put a great deal of work into that Bill. He also praised the work of my predecessor, now the Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources. It is certainly believed by the Anti-Cancer Council that the "deglamourisation" of smoking, which has been directed particularly at young people, as well as the work that has been done on billboards and on banning advertising, is beginning to have effect. We now have a much smaller number of young people-in that twelve to fifteen-year-old group at least-who do not start smoking, and that is something for which members of Parliament can take some credit. 496 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Questions without Notice

The Tobacco Act was an important one. Many of us were involved in some small way in that debate, and I am glad to say that the Anti-Cancer Council and other organisations are giving credit to Parliament for the part that it played.

ROYAL MELBOURNE HOSPITAL The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province)-I refer the Minister for Health to the major shortage in funds which has restricted the operations of the Royal Melbourne Hospital and ask: is it a fact that the Royal Melbourne Hospital has been forced to close a fifteen-bed orthopaedic ward which had been used to treat emergency patients? If so, what specific action is the government taking to provide much-needed funding to open these and other closed beds at the hospital? The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-The answer to the question is similar to an answer I gave Mr Knowles last time the House met. This is the time of the year when hospitals look anxiously at expenditure in the last few months of their budgets. A great deal of discussion has taken place between the staff of regional offices of Health Department Victoria and hospitals, and the hospitals have been making adjustments to the way they operate and to their budgets. I sincerely hope the material that the Royal Melbourne Hospital has been working throu~ WIth the department will result in a budget that will be agreed on, and that a minlmum of inconvenience will be caused to patients.

MINISTRY OF HOUSING AND CONSTRUCTION The Hon. D. E. HENSHAW (Geelong Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction a significant number of problems that have been brought to me at my electorate office by clients and potential clients of the Ministry of Housing and Construction on, firstly, the need for estate improvements and, secondly, the sensitive issue of rent arrears. Will the Minister report progress on these two issues? The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-In dealing with the second aspect first, I should say that I agree that rent arrears is a sensitive issue. A previous Minister responsible for housing, the Honourable Frank Wilkes, summed it up when he said that the administrative test was to separate the people who could not pay from those who would not pay. Any policy on clamping down on rent arrears must bear that in mind. Nevertheless, I am pleased to report that there has been some significant improvement in this area. The total current arrears over the past twelve months has been reduced from $13·9 million to $9·6 million. That is still a substantial figure, but the aim of the exercise is not to evict people or to attempt to put them in the impossible position of paying a lump sum of $800 or $1000. Inste.ad, the Ministry attempts to provide these people with credit counselling so that they are able to pay their regular rent in addition to $5 or $10 for arrears each rental period. This scheme allows tenants to regulate their finances and results in a reduction of the debt, although at a slow pace. At the same time it allows people to be in a stable rent paying position rather than having draconian provisions imposed on them. With respect to the first aspect of the question, I should say that estate improvements are important and have been given much consideration by the ~overnment. The amount spent by the Ministry will be approximately $30 million thls year, which is a significant increase from the $4· 7 million that was spent in the last year of the previous Liberal government-another indication of its neglect of public housing. Printing Committee 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 497

Over the next four years the government pledges to spend $140 million on estate improvements. In a sense I begrudge that amount because it is money I should like to spend on the acquisition of new stock. However, in order to provide people with decent public housing, the 19 000 concrete units spread around Victoria urgently require those funds. If that is not done, we run the risk of having two classes of people in public accommodation: those lucky enough to get good quality stock and those li VIng in old and neglected stock. I conclude my remarks by saying that in the first few years the {>riorities have been on high-rise and walk-up units scattered throughout the metropohtan area. However, I am pleased to say that the priorities will now be moving towards some country areas and estates. In fact, they will include the Latrobe Valley. The Barwon valley area, which is in Mr Henshaw's sphere of influence, is targeted for priorities in the ensuing year, and I hope he will see substantial improvements in the stock for people living in those areas.

PRINTING COMMITTEE The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU (Doutta Galla Province)-By leave, I move: That the Printing Committee be empowered to meet during the suspension of the sitting of the Council for dinner this day. By way of explanation, I point out that a joint Printing Committee report has been prepared and approved by the Printing Committee of the Legislative Assembly'. It now requires the approval of the Printing Committee of the Legislative CouncIl so that it can be presented to both Houses of Parliament. The motion was agreed to.

PETITION Water storage dam, Grampians National Park The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province) presented a petition from certain citizens of Victoria praying that the government reverse its decision not to allow the construction of a storage dam in the Grampians National Park to augment the water supply of the township of Dunkeld. He stated that the petition was respectfully worded, in order, and bore 278 signatures. It was ordered that the petition be laid on the table.

MEDICAL TREATMENT (ENDURING POWER OF AITORNEY) BILL The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health), by leave, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Medical Treatment Act 1988 and Part XI of the Instruments Act 1958 and for other purposes. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read a first time.

DEPARTMENT OF VICTORIAN PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne North Province)-By leave, I move: That there be laid before this House a copy of the report of the Chief Reporter on the operations of the Department of Victorian Parliamentary Debates for the year 1987-88. 498 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Papers

The PRESIDENT-Order! Before putting the question, I wish to say that this is the first time Hansard has tabled a report. It is intended that other Parliamentary departments will also prepare reports. These will be consolidated in forthcoming years and will be presented to Parliament as a single report on the administration of the various departments. The motion was agreed to. The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne North Province) presented the report in compliance with the foregoing order. I t was ordered that the report be laid on the table. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: That the report be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting. Because it is such an historic report, I ask whether the first 100 years of the operation of the Department of Victorian Parliamentary Debates will also be referred to in the report. The PRESIDENT-Order! Before putting the motion, I say that the first 100 years, or at least the culmination of them, were referred to in the Auditor-General's report on Parliament. It is the need for accountability to which the Auditor-General's report draws attention that is the trigger to require Parliamentary departments to table reports. The motion was agreed to.

PAPERS The following papers, pursuant to the directions of several Acts of Parliament, were laid on the table by the Clerk: Law Reform Commission-Report on Priorities, No. 22. Planning and Environment Act 1987-Notices of Approval ofthe following amendments to planning schemes: Bungaree Planning Scheme-Amendment L2. Footscray Planning Scheme-Amendment L3. Geelong Regional Planning Scheme-Amendment R2l. Horsham Planning Scheme-Amendment L 7. Huntly Planning Scheme-Amendment Ll3. Lillydale Planning Scheme-Amendments Ll4 and L35. Maffra Planning Scheme-Amendment Ll7. Marong Planning Scheme-Amendment L3. Metropolitan Region Planning Schemes-Amendments R34, R45, RL68, RL69 Part 1 and RL 73 Part 1. Mildura (City) Planning Scheme-Amendment L6. Mildura (Shire) Planning Scheme-Amendment L5. Morwell Planning Scheme-Amendments L5, LlO and Lt7. Orbost Planning Scheme-Amendment L8. Romsey Planning Scheme-Amendment L3. St Kilda Planning Scheme-Amendment Ll. Stawell (Shire) Planning Scheme-Amendment L5. Papers 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 499

Talbot and Clunes Planning Scheme-Amendment L3. Tambo Planning Scheme-Amendment L21. Whittlesea Planning Scheme-Amendment L4. Statutory Rules under the following Acts of Parliament: Abattoir and Meat Inspection Act 1973-No. 50. Aerial Spraying Control Act 1966-No. 51. Alpine Resorts Act 1983-No. 79. Animal Preparations Act 1987-No. 52.

Chiropodist~ Act 1968-No. 66. Chiropractors and Osteopaths Act 1978-No. 67. County Court Act 1958-No. 49, together with copies of the following documents which, by section 32 of the Interpretation ofLegislation Act 1984, are also required to be laid upon the table: Section 78AA of the Commonwealth Judiciary Act 1983. Part VI, Division 2 of the Commonwealth Income Tax Assessment Act 1936. Group Ill, Part 4 and Table 5 of the Public Service Determinations 1985. Dairy Industry Act 1984-No. 53. Dental Technicians Act 1972-Nos 65 and 68. Dentists Act 1972-No. 69. Environment Protection Act 1970-No. 77. Farm Produce Merchants and Commission Agents Act 1965-No. 54. Forests Act 1958-No. 61. Health Act 1958-Nos 70 and 76. Lotteries Gaming and Betting Act 1966-No. 88. Medical Practitioners Act 1970-No. 71. Nurses Act 1958-No. 72. Pharmacists Act 1974-No. 74. Physiotherapists Act 1978-No. 75. Post-Secondary Education Act 1978-Nos 63 and 64. Poultry Processing Act 1968-No. 57. Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1986-No. 58. Public Service Act 1974-No. 78. Racing Act 1958-Nos 81 to 87. Reference Areas Act 1978-No. 60. Teaching Service Act 1981-No. 62. Tomato Processing Industry Act 1976-No. 59. The Constitution Act Amendment Act 1958-Statement of functions conferred upon the Electoral Commissioner, May 1989. On the motion of the Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province), it was ordered that the statement and report tabled by the Clerk be taken into consideration on the next day of meeting. 500 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Concurrent Debate on Bills

CONCURRENT DEBATE ON BILLS The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister Assisting the Treasurer)-By leave, I move: That this House authorises and requires the Honourable the President to permit the motions for the second readings of the Supply (1989-90, No. 1) Bill and the Works and Services (Ancillary Provisions, 1989-90, No. 1) Bill to be moved and debated concurrently. The motion was agreed to.

SUPPLY (1989-90, No. 1) BILL AND WORKS AND SERVICES (ANCILLARY PROVISIONS, 1989-90, No. 1) BILL The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister Assisting the Treasurer)-I move: That these Bills be now read a second time. Annual appropriation legislation with respect to any particular financial year is not introduced into Parliament until some time after the beginning of that financial year. It is, therefore, necessary for the government of the day to seek Parliamentary authorisation of spending for the ongoing programs of government during the Supply period. This extends from the beginning of the financial year on 1 July until the time when appropriation legislation is passed, a period of up to four months in 1989-90. In 1989-90, as in the previous two years, the Victorian government intends to introduce appropriation legislation into this House during August. This enables the strategies and policies reflected in the legislation to be effective for as much of the financial year as possible. Honourable members are advised that this decision is predicated on a May timing for the Premiers Conference and Australian Loan Council meetings. Unless these meetings occur even earlier in the year, it is not feasible to introduce Victorian Budget legislation before August. The Supply Bill for 1989-90 provides for payments out of the Consolidated Fund during the Supply period for the recurrent and works and services program expenditure requirements of Budget sector agencies in so far as they require annual appropriation. Consistent with established Parliamentary principles, Supply provisions are calculated on an unchanged policy basis. Honourable members can obtain more detailed information about the ongoing programs to which spending will be applied during the Supply period from the Appropriation (1988-89, No. 1) Act 1988 and supporting Budget Papers. Supply legislation will lapse when the Appropriation (1989-90, No. 1) Bill 1989 is passed by both Houses. The amount of Supply sought in this Bill is $3881·1 million-$3 881 100000. This consists of$3179·3 million, or $3 179250000, for recurrent expenditure, and $701·9 million or $701 850000 for works and services expenditure. The individual amounts for each program are shown in the table to clause 4 of the Bill. With respect to recurrent expenditure, the amounts have been calculated on the basis of existing operating cost levels~ including subsidies and salary and wage rate levels at 8 March 1989. These are the amounts estimated to be required to meet payments for these services during the period 1 July to 31 October 1989. The amounts are set out in the relevant column in the table to clause 4 of the Bill. The implementation of any wage awards handed down after 8 March 1989 which affect expenditure during the Supply period will be met under well-established arrangements through the provisions contained in clause 4 (2) of the Bill. This clause provides the necessary appropriation authority to allow Supply amounts for recurrent expenditure to be adjusted to meet the cost of such wage awards. Supply and Works and Services Bills 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 501

With respect to works and services expenditure, the total amount sought will enable the government to continue its works program during the first four months of the 1989-90 financial year. It is composed of the individual amounts shown in the relevant column in the table to clause 4 of the Bill. These amounts represent the cash flow which it is estimated will be required during the Supply period. This enables the government to continue funding approved projects and those ongoing works and services activities in which agencies are involved from year to year. Clause 5 of the Bill allows the Treasurer to transfer funds from a program where Supply provisions are more than sufficient to another program within the same portfolio where Supply provisions prove to be deficient. This provision applies to both recurrent expenditure and works and services expenditure and is similar to the provision contained in the Appropriation Act. However, it does not allow the Treasurer to transfer provisions provided in the Bill between recurrent and" works and services expenditure. The total amount for each agency cannot be altered by the Treasurer, only the proportions assigned to each program. It should be emphasised that this provision is meant to be exercised only on a limited basis and where such transfers would be consistent with the achievement of program objectives of the relevant Ministry. In addition, honourable members are reminded that the Treasurer is required to report back to Parliament in all cases where the authority is exercised. An explanatory memorandum to the Bill has been prepared in a form similar to that provided in previous years. The information provided in that memorandum is to aid honourable members in their consideration of the Bill. It indicates reasons why particular Supply provisions vary significantly from the provisions which would be expected on a pro-rata basis for .the four-month period which this Bill covers. It also draws attention to changes in programs relative to those included in the Appropriation (1988-89, No. 1) Act 1988 as a result of machinery of government changes or modifications of program structures. The Supply Bill for 1989-90 is similar in format to Supply legislation in previous years in that certain non-specific appropriation matters are omitted, relating mainly to works and services expenditure in the Department of Water Resources and the Rural Water Commission, but also including one section relating to the Ministry of Education. They are provided for in the Works and Services (Ancillary Provisions, 1989-90, No. 1) 1989 Bill. The Bill relating to works and services provides for non-specific appropriation matters, mainly relating to works and services expenditure in the Department of Water Resources and the Rural Water Commission, but also including one section related to the Ministry of Education. Technically, these non-specific appropriation matters are more properly handled in separate legislation. Honourable members will be aware that similar legislation was introduced in 1987-88 and 1988-89. It is appropriate that this Bill and the Supply Bill be debated jointly to facilitate consideration of the matters contained in them and joint debate has, therefore, been proposed. I commend the Bills to the House. On the motion of the Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province), the debate was adjourned. It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting. 502 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Police Regulation (Amendment) Bill

POLICE REGULATION (AMENDMENT) BILL The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)­ I move: That this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill implements a number of amendments to the Police Regulation Act to reflect offsets for the second-tier wage increases, to improve the internal efficiency of the Victoria Police and to remove certain anomalies in the provisions governing management of the force and the functions of the Deputy Ombudsman (Police Complaints). The proposals fit well within the government's policy statement, Building a Law­ Abiding Society-Together, and reflect the government's ongoing concern to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the Police Force's efforts against crime. All of the proposals in the Bill are the result of detailed consultation with those bodies affected, including force command and the Police Association of Victoria, which are in full agreement with them. Second-tier wage offsets reflected by the Bill are aimed at increasing efficiency and saving resources. The offsets include the requirement that three rather than one month's notice is required before resignations are effective and that members who are promoted and then voluntarily leave the force within the probation period for the new rank are to be paid superannuation at their pre-probation rank. Industrial-as opposed to personal promotional and transfer-claimants before the Police Service Board are now to be restricted to the State, the Chief Commissioner of Police and the Police Association. The Bill also proposes amendments to increase the internal efficiency of the force; for example, it will empower the Chief Commissioner of Police to delegate his administrative powers and duties to members below the rank of inspector and to categories of members as opposed to named individuals. The Bill will also enable acting commissioners to be appointed during the temporary absence of the substantive position holders and require courts to take judicial notice of the signature of assistant commissioners. These proposals, though simple, will save time and in the former cases enable the more flexible distribution of management responsibilities. Amendments will also allow the establishment of a rank structure for the protective service officers to provide them with a career path and thus improve retention rates. Various minor anomalies between the authority of and protections available to the Ombudsman and Deputy Ombudsman (Police Complaints) will also be rectified by the proposed legislation. Among other things the Evidence Act powers of the Deputy Ombudsman will be brought into line with those of the Ombudsman, as will the provisions protecting the Deputy Ombudsman from involvement in judicial proceedings. The proposed legislation will also ensure confidentiality of correspondence passing between the Ombudsman and Deputy Ombudsman on the one hand and persons in the custody of the State on the other, subject to agreed security safeguards. Minor amendments are proposed by the Bill in relation to other legislation. It is proposed to amend the Corrections Act to provide that regulations may be made to deal with offences committed by people detained in police gaols and to amend the Pension Supplementation Act so that recipients of police pension fund pensions do not lose part of their consumer price index increases when these take them over thresholds for social security pensions and benefit entitlement. The proposed amendment will bring such pension recipients into line with State superannuation State Casual Employees Superannuation Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 503 scheme recipients who can have a small lump sum payment made instead of the CPI increase so that the thresholds are not breached. I commend the Bill to the House. On the motion of the Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province), the debate was adjourned. It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

STATE CASUAL EMPLOYEES SUPERANNUATION BILL The House went into Committee for the further consideration of this Bill. Clause 2 was agreed to. Clause 3 The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)­ I move: 1. Clause 3, page 2, lines 40 and 41, omit "created by or under any Act or any other body". When the Committee last considered this Bill it was understood that the Opposition and the National Party had not had sufficient time to give consideration to the government's amendments. I understand both parties have been briefed since that time and have not indicated a view in respect of the amendment. The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-The Opposition has now been briefed on the Bill and I thank the Minister and his departmental representatives for that information. The Opposition does not oppose the amendment. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted. Clause 4 The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)- I move: 2. Clause 4, line 12, omit" 1 July 1989" and insert" 1 January 1990". 3. Clause 4, line 15, omit "1 January" and insert "1 July". The amendments were agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 5 and 6. Clause 7 The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)­ I move: 4. Clause 7, line 15, omit "31 December 1989" and insert "1 July 1990". The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 8 to 34. Clause 35 The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)­ I move: 5. Clause 35, page 16, line 8, omit "1988" and insert "1989". 504 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Superannuation (Portability) Bill

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clauses. The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and passed through its remaining stages.

SUPERANNUATION (PORTABILITY) BILL The debate (adjourned from April 18) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-The Superannuation (Portability) Bill provides a comprehensive system of portability of superannuation benefits between public sector superannuation schemes for both State and Commonwealth public sector employees. It also counters the double dippin~ which has occurred in relation to disability benefits paid to people on superannuatIon and WorkCare benefits. The Liberal Party applauds that provision. The Bill will create an Act that is applicable to all statutory superannuation schemes, whether they are constituted by an Act, a statutory rule, or a trust deed. As the Treasurer said, the intention of the Bill is to cover all Victorian public sector superannuation schemes irrespective of how they are constituted. The Bill provides for portability in the form of deferred benefits so that when an employee leaves one superannuation scheme and transfers to other employment within the public sector and qualifies for membership of another public sector superannuation scheme, a deferred benefit is calculated. That benefit stands to the credit of the employee, subject to certain conditions included in the Bill. The Bill contains rules for the calculation of deferred benefits. In particular, it takes account of the changes in the Victorian public sector superannuation schemes by which contribution options have been provided for most employees. The Bill places a limit on the accumulation of benefits, so that in the final analysis an employee who transfers from one scheme to another does not qualify for benefits greater than would have been provided under the original scheme. The Bill also protects employees from the practical consequences of changing employment and entering into a new scheme by providing that a medical certificate is not required. As honourable members will be aware, an employee entering into a new superannuation scheme is normally required to undergo a medical examination. Over time people are likely to develop medical conditions through the ageing process, which conditions may render them ineligible to be participants in the new scheme. That problem will not arise, as employees can continue on the basis of their membership of the original scheme. That is an important point for public sector employees when they are considering moving from one area of employment to another. The Bill also contains procedures for dealing with appeals and the resolution of disputes. The Liberal Party does not oppose the Bill, but it has some reservations about the extent of the portability benefits. There has always been an understanding that superannuation is a reward by employers to employees, with additional benefits according to length of service. It seems to be a contradIction to provide portability of superannuation benefits, but on the broad grounds of equity and efficiency the Liberal Party supports the extension of portability rights. With the nature of work changing at such a rapid pace these days impediments cannot be placed in the way of employees seeking to undertake job changes. All Superannuation (Portability) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 505

sections of the community acknowledge the need for greater flexibility in the work force, including the public sector. The local government sector is one of the main areas where greater flexibility is needed. As there are 210 municipalities in Victoria, employees must have the ability to move about. The Metropolitan Municipal Association makes this very point. I quote from a letter written by the the general manager of the association, in which he says: This association fu,lly supports current industrial relations trends emphasising flexibility in the work force, multi-skilling, training, and retraining, etc. We note that lack of portability of superannuation is a major obstacle to flexibility within and across industries and support all moves to improve portability. The Liberal Party has some reservations about double dipping in respect of clause 9. Under clause 9 (4) (a) (i) combined benefits for WorkCare and superannuation may be paid to not more than 95 per cent of the salary on retirement. The Liberal Party is concerned that that figure is too high. We are already on record as saying that the figure should be 80 per cent of the salary on retirement, plus the superannuation contribution. The Liberal Party will not reopen the matter as it understands amendments will be moved when amendments to the WorkCare legislation are considered. The Liberal Party has reached an agreement with the National Party on this issue. The Liberal Party's concern is that the level of combined benefits currently paid under WorkCare and superannuation does not constitute an incentive for people to return to work. The incentive is to stay away from work and to remain on WorkCare benefits. That situation should be changed. In reality, workers on WorkCare should not be better off than those in the work force. The Liberal Party acknowledges that those on WorkCare should not be disadvantaged to any degree, but it is nonsense to suggest that people should be financially better offby being on WorkCare. If greater flexibility and incentive for workers are to be provided, not only should workers be able to transfer within the public sector but also they should be able to transfer from the public sector to the private sector. That is not addressed in the Bill. There is a need to attract into the public sector people with the skills that were evidently lacking in organisations such as the Victorian Economic Development Corporation. A-strong argument can be put that people with far better skills could have been attracted into the VEDC if they had had the ability to transfer their superannuation in some form from the private sector. With those reservations, the Liberal Party supports the Bill. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The Superannuation (Portability) Bill repeals the Superannuation Benefits Act and represents the final stage of the reform of public sector superannuation. Superannuation within the public sector has grown like Topsy over many years with a myriad of schemes all with their own unique range of benefits. In recognition of that, the government commissioned the Economic and Budget Review Committee to undertake a review of superannuation across the public sector. That resulted in a document entitled A Review ofSuperannuation in the Victorian Public Sector released in April 1984. The primary recommendation of that committee, as outlined in the report, was that the public sector superannuation schemes should be amalgamated into one fund and that the benefits available under that fund should be standardised. In making that recommendation, the committee sought to overcome the problem of portability. The National Party supports that concept. 506 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Superannuation (Portability) Bill

If the lack of portability between individual schemes represents a barrier-there was ample evidence that that was the case and that was certainly suggested to the committee-that in itself represents the best possible argument in favour of a single, unified fund. If a career path of an individual is to be blocked, obviously that is frustrating to the individual. In general terms, it is also expensive from the point of view of the efficiency of the public sector. The last thing the government should do is . stifle ambition within the Public Service. If there is a barrier within that hierarchy and as a result of that barrier individuals forgo opportunities for advancement, I suggest that that is to the long-term cost of the community. Under the previous profile ofportability, and as a result of that, we have the concept of deferred benefits: in other words, where there was a change in occupation involving a different fund, the Question arose as to how the entitlement of the individual was to be calculated. It is a matter of history that, because the funds had a range of benefits, those computations became very complicated. Complications arose relating to retirement benefits, differences in death and disability benefits and so on, so that the computation depended almost entirely upon the structure of the funds involved. The situation was an unmitigated mess. It was further complicated in that individual employees may have had more than one transfer during their careers and may have had deferred benefits accumulated in several funds in the name of the ultimate recipient. Another problem was that most of the schemes were simply unfunded: in other words, there was not sufficient cash available to transfer to follow the particular employee. That highlights a concern the National Party has as to the extent to which the government has allowed that liability to go unfunded. The unfunded liability has been allowed to blowout as a result, in part, of the generosity of Parliament in the past-and I make no apology about that­ but it is also as a result of a distinct lack of financial responsibility on the part of the government. We could have a protracted debate on the financial probity of allowing those schemes to be unfunded; that is, the extent to which cash reserves would fall short of the current contingent liability if each member were entitled to a payout today. One argument is that, provided each scheme meets its commitment as it falls due in relation to the retirement, death or retirement due to disability, that is an acceptable position: in other words, that position accrues and we ignore whatever notional benefits are accrued by individual members throughout the currency of the scheme: that is why we should not be concerned that the schemes rely on future contributions. I do not subscribe to that argument because it ignores any movement in the dimensions of the unfunded liability. It is clear in this State that that liability has been blowing out consistently over recent years, and there will be a day of reckoning when those cards have to be called in. It is financially irresponsible for any government to ignore totally the accumulated shortfall in the funding of the liability. It is even more irresponsible to attempt to conceal the dimensions of the unfunded liability or, indeed, to make light of its existence. The Cain administration is not prepared to concede that the unfunded liability forms part of the total public sector debt, and I believe that to be totally irresponsible. In my view, we should, at the very least, attempt to identify that unfunded liability and we should-again, at the very least-attempt to arrest the extent to which that unfunded liability is allowed to blowout in the future. All the Questions of portability would have been overcome had the government adopted the recommendation of the Economic and Budget Review Committee in so far as the establishment of one fund was concerned. However, the government chose Agricultural Acts Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 507

not to accept that recommendation but instead opted for a profile of nine individual superannuation schemes more or less based on an industry structure. Therefore, as a result, portability of benefits remains a problem, and that is the problem the Bill addresses. It does so in three ways. Firstly, the Bill provides a specific formula for determining how benefits deferred under each fund are to be calculated. It makes very clear the way provision shall be made for factors such as contribution levels whereas, in the past, the primary consideration was simply length of service. Therefore those complications or ramifications are taken into account. The second purpose of the formula is to ensure or provide that, where a transfer is involved, the member takes up membership of the new fund on exactly the same medical basis as that on which he entered the original scheme. In other words, he carries with him his particular health classification. That is supportable in terms of equity. If we were not prepared to concede that, it would be possible that a member, during the currency of his employment, could be dramatically disadvantaged by a deterioration in his health, and it would be unfair. If we were to have a single fund, obviously the question would not arise. Thus, if we are to accept the government's profile of nine funds, we also have to concede that it would be blatantly unfair to impose a re-examination of the health classification at the point of transfer. The other purpose of the formula is to provide that all public sector superannuation schemes will integrate WorkCare weekly payments and disability pensions. The principle here is important because it is saying that this mechanism will overcome the opportunity of double dipping where that applied in the past. Given that Parliament accepts the profile of nine superannuation schemes, the Bill becomes very important in that it ensures that, where a member changes schemes as a result of a shift in his employment, so far as possible, the benefits he receives upon retirement due to age, ill health or disability-or the benefits his dependants may receive in respect of his death-will be as near as possible to those that would have applied if he had been within a single fund throughout his entire employment. The National Party hopes the Bill overcomes several potential anomalies within the Public Service superannuation sector. On those grounds, the National Party supports the Bill. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

AGRICULTURAL ACTS (MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENTS) BILL The debate (adjourned from April 18) on the motion of the Hon. E. H. Walker (Minister for the Arts) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Ballarat Province)-The Opposition supports this small Bill which amends various agricultural Acts covering a number of matters. Although most of the amendments are of a housekeeping nature, a couple of minor reforms will lead to small but significant changes. Firstly, the Bill amends the Animal Preparations Act. The purpose of the amendment is to clarify the capacity of the Chief Administrator of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Affairs to cancel registrations of animal preparations without reference to the Animal Preparations Board. This is seen as necessary because, in recent times, considerable concern has been expressed about the impact of certain chemicals on our agricultural industries. The existing mechanism laid down in the Act was deemed to 508 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Agricultural Acts Bill be too lengthy and the small amendment will ensure that the chief administrator of the department has the capacity to move quickly if that is required. Secondly, the major change proposed in respect of the Dairy Industry Act is that it widens the basis on which companies may make payments to dairy farmers supplying factories with milk. Historically, dairy farmers providing milk for manufacture had their payments based on the fat content of the milk. However, over recent years, as we have gained a better understanding of dietary needs and consumers have expressed more specific preferences, there has been a recognition that this is not necessarily the most appropriate way the dairy industry should go forward. A number ofcompanies and the dairy farmer organisation argued for a compositional basis of payment for milk supplied for manufacture. The amendment will enable that to occur. There is no compulsion on companies to participate but, from discussions the Opposition has had, it is clear that many companies will take up the opportunity provided for in the Bill. The Bill also amends the Dried Fruits Act. It is a machinery change because, until recently when the Commonwealth government changed the regulations covering export control by the Dried Fruits Board, such standards have automatically been introduced at the State level. The amendment eliminates the need for the Governor in Council to reproduce the Commonwealth legislation in the State regulations. Under the Bill, once the Commonwealth government changes the regulations under its powers, the change automatically applies in Victoria. This change was recommended by the Public Bodies Review Committee when it examined the Dried Fruits Board. Amendments to the Fruit and Vegetables Act repeal obsolete provisions of the Act which deal with cool stores and provide more appropriate penalties in the form of penalty units. As I understand it, the penalties are brought into line with the penalties that apply to similar offences in New South Wales. The amendments to the Seeds Act remove the existing annual requirement for the registration of seed-cleaning plants. It is a very sensible, practical approach. The amendments to the Vegetation and Vine Diseases Act will provide more appropriate penalties which, again, will be expressed in penalty units. Penalties will be brought into line with similar penalties in New South Wales. In addition the monetary thresholds that determine the manner in which claims for certain compensations are dealt with will be increased to more realistic levels. The amendment will also allow authorised inspectors to permit the removal of vines from vine disease districts. Concern has been expressed about the capacity of inspectors to remove vines from vine disease districts. This provision makes it clear that those powers exist, the exercise of which is in the interests of the industry. The remaining amendments are of a purely technical nature. Their effect is to bring former terminology into line with current usage and to remove obsolete machinery provisions from a number of existing Acts. The Opposition is happy to support the Bill. The Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western Province)-The National Party takes a great deal of interest in Bills that concern agriculture. The amendments contained in the Agricultural Acts (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill are commonsense ones. As Mr Knowles said, they are small and of a technical nature. Agricultural Acts Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 509

The amendments contained in clause 3 concern the Animal Preparations Act and the cancellation of registration of animal preparations. Clause 3 will allow the Chief Administrator of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Affairs to cancel the registration of certain animal preparations. Under the present system a manufacturer can cancel a registration and, if the matter is controversial, it can be referred to the Animal Preparations Board for its decision. Recently concern has arisen about chemical residues, a matter that has caused continual dispute as to compensation where cattle have been sold and analyses have revealed the presence of chemical residues. In some cases farmers have received neither payment for the beast nor compensation from the government. If Australia is to have a high quality beef export market, action must be taken to ensure that beef is free of chemical resldues. I ask the Minister for Agriculture and Rural Affairs in another place to consult with the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands about the matter and to ask her whether she is aware of the benefits offree-range cattle. It is important that the ramifications of locking up land in national parks is understood. I refer particularly to the recommendations made by the Land Conservation Council, not only for the Mallee area but also for the high country­ recommendations that affect skiers like myself-where cattle have roamed free for many years. The Hon. E. H. Walker-For 140 years. The Hon. R. A. BEST-The Minister is right. There is a danger that cattle will be taken from that area. A headline in the Australian of 19 November 1987 states: "Our beef healthiest in world". The article states that Australian beef is produced at a very high quality and continues: The national testing program for chemical residues in meat had given Australia the healthiest beef of any leading cattle producer in the world, the Cattle Council of Australia-CCA-said yesterday. The article also states that more than 100 000 beef properties throughout Australia were surveyed in a study done by the council. Clause 4 is the most important clause in the Bill because it deals with compositional payments for manufactured milk. As has been outlined in another Bill that was introduced in the House, various brands of milk with a low fat content are now available. The provisions contained in clause 4 have been agreed to by the dairy industry. A farmer will be paid by the factories not on the basis of the butterfat content of the milk but on the basis of the value of each component of the milk that is produced. A typical sample of milk contains 4·5 per cent butterfat, 3·3 per cent protein and 5·5 per cent lactose or milk sugar, and approximately 87 per cent is water. The United Dairyfarmers of Victoria stated that the industry would like market milk to be included in the provisions of the clause so that compositional payments could be made for it. Such an amended Bill could be considered during this sessional period so that the implementation of the Act could take place by 1 July. The third amending provision concerns the Dried Fruits Act and has been produced as a result of a recommendation made by the Public Bodies Review Committee, of which Mr Evans is a member. The amendment will enable regulations under the Act to automatically adopt by reference the export control orders of the Commonwealth government, a positive move that the National Party welcomes. The dried fruit industry is important, particularly along the River Murray. Towns within my electorate such as Swan Hill and Mildura produce 95 per cent of Victoria's dried fruIt. The industry is highly dependent on the export market as well as being 510 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Aboriginal Land (Northcote Land) Bill important for the economic survival of those towns. Any beneficial amendments to the Dried Fruits Act are welcomed by the National Party. The fourth amending provision concerns amendments to the Fruit and Vegetables Act. Although the penalty provisions contained in the clause are harsh, the National Party does not disawee with them. Anybody who either cheats on the system or trades outside the provisIons of the Act should be penalised and should accept fair and reasonable penalties. The Fruit and Vegetables Act also deals with cool stores and legislative requirements concerning their construction. Many growers incorporate cool stores within the family residence; and because the provisions of the Act will no longer apply, I support the proposed amendments. The next amending provision concerns the Seeds Act. The proposed amendment means that proprietors of seed-cleaning plants will no longer have to apply for annual renewal of registration. The amendment will not do away with the need for the registration of those plants, but will no longer require registration to be undertaken on an annual basis. Clause 9 amends the Vegetation and Vine Diseases Act, an amendment that is important to the areas that I represent. It provides for increased penalties and brings those penalties into line with penalties in New South Wales. It also allows for authorised inspectors to remove diseased vines from vine disease districts. Some time ago illegal vines were introduced into Australia and had to be removed. The clause allows for authorised inspectors rather than police officers to remove those vines. The remaining amendments in clause 10 are minor and relate to changes of title and so on. Nevertheless, they are significant and will be of benefit to the agricultural industry. The National Party supports the Bill and wishes it a speedy passage through the House. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. I appreciate the comments of both Mr Knowles and Mr Best in supporting what is, by and large, a housekeeping Bill: it increases penalties and corrects certain anomalies. I thank both Mr Knowles and Mr Best for their support of it. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

ABORIGINAL LAND (NORTHCOTE LAND) BILL The Order of the Day for the resumption of the debate on the motion for the second reading of this Bill was read. The PRESIDENT-Order! In another place this Bill was considered by the Speaker to be a private Bill. I have also examined the Bill and agree with that conclusion.

The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-By leave~ I move: That this Bill be dealt with as a public Bill. The motion was agreed to. Aboriginal Land (Northcote Land) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 511

The debate (adjourned from March 22) on the motion of the Hon. B. T. Pullen (Minister for Housing and Construction) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The HOD. REG MACEY (Monash Province)-The purpose of the Bill is to authorise the granting of the freehold of land in the City of Northcote to the Aborigines Advancement League. It is an additional grant to the previous grant which was made to the league under powers contained in the Aboriginal Lands (Aborigines Advancement League) (Watt Street, Northcote) Act 1982. The history of the site is that it was formerly a rubbish tip. It was used as a rubbish tip by the City of Northcote, it having been granted occupancy of the site when the Glen Iris Brick and Terra Cotta Company did not continue with its lease in 1963. Following its filling and subsequent to its use as a tip site, it was reserved for public recreational purposes and the City of Northcote was appointed as the committee of management. The previous site which was granted to the Aborigines Advancement League in 1982 was a section which was excised from the original tip land and that was done with the agreement of the City of Northcote. This was a bipartisan move at that time and had the support of the Liberal Party, as indeed has the Aborigines Advancement League since its conception. In 1984 the league was appointed the committee of management over the balance of the public recreation reserve and that is the area of land to which the Bill refers. The league, with the support of the Northcote City Council, has been responsible for major works including establishing a sporting and recreation oval, and some of the land has been enclosed and appropriate changing facilities have been provided, together with extensive landscaping. In February 1986 the reserve was named the Sir Douglas Nicholls Recreation Reserve, a title which we on this side of the House applaud. Sir Douglas Nicholls was well ref@'ded throughout the community. He did much to bring to the public's attention the abtlities that he and other members of his race possessed. He was very much admired in many aspects of social behaviour, for his sporting prowess and his ability as a public speaker. In the 1970s he was appointed as Governor of South Australia. Sir Dou~as Nicholls justly earned great public respect and the name of the reserve is appropnate. The government's proposal is that the freehold of the land will be granted on a similar basis to that which is set out in the 1982 Act. The grant of the land will be subject to the condition that the land is to be used for Aboriginal cultural and recreational purposes. In our view that makes the freehold title different from that which applies to any other freehold title in the State. We are certainly in agreement with this grant being made to the Aborigines Advancement League but we dispute the way in which it is being done. It is our view that if it is being given as a freehold title to the Aborigines Advancement League, the league should be free in the future to use that freehold land as it sees fit within the constraints of the planning scheme. That same situation would apply to any other landowner. We believe that should the Aborigines Advancement League at some time in the future wish to raise funds against that title, it should be free to do so. That is something which the league would not be able to do under the provisions contained in the Bill. There is no reason why different treatment should be applied to this freehold title from that which would apply to any freehold title. In addition, the Bill provides that a lease, licence, permit or other authority under the Mines Act 1958, the Extractive Industries Act 1966 and the Petroleum Act 1958 shall not be granted except with the consent of the league and subject to such terms and conditions as it determines. Honourable members are well aware that mining or extractive industry is most unlikely, to say the least, to take place on what was a 512 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Aboriginal Land (Northcote Land) Bill former tip site, excavated as it was to a depth of 150 feet. However, this is another difference from that which would apply to any other freehold title. For example, farmers have long sought the right for protection against mining on their freehold land in rural areas and that safeguard is not allowed them. They do not have the right of veto. In principle, we believe this is not a reasonable thing for the government to do. Although we will not be opposing the Bill because in principle we agree with much that it seeks to achieve, we believe that since a review of the Mines Act is occurring at the moment it may be appropriate for the proclamation of clause 5 (4), which provides for a mining veto so that the Aborigines Advancement League can veto mining applications for the land, to be held in abeyance until the review is completed. This would not in any way affect what the government is seeking to achieve in the short term-that is-the granting of the title. We have no other objection to the Bill and will support it. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The National Party supports the Bill. It wholeheartedly agrees with the sentiments expressed by Mr Macey about the granting offreehold title. The title in this case is conditional freehold. The National Party is not opposed to the granting of freehold to Aborigines but it believes the grant should be similar to other grants that are made and it should not have conditions attached to it. The honourable member for Gippsland East in another place as long ago as 1970 is on record as advocating such a course when the Lake Tyers land was transferred to the Aboriginal community in that area. It has been a longstanding policy of the National Party that grants made to Aborigines should be made on exactly the same basis as grants to other sections of the community. We are opposed to conditional transfers. Be that as it may, the National Party does not stand in the way of the transfer because the land in question will be used to advantage by members of the Aboriginal community in Northcote and it will not be used exclusively by them. It is appropriate that it be transferred on a freehold status. Unfortunately, it has not been wholly transferred on that basis, and the National Party regrets that. I share Mr Macey's sentiments about the mining clause and to some extent I go further. It is not the intention of the National Party in any way to pre-empt the matters that may be dealt with by the review of the Mines Act nor to set any sort of precedent by agreein$ to this particular clause of the Bill. It is a vexed question that needs more consideratIon and investigation. It was also a subject that was debated at length at the National Party annual conference held at Warrnamboollast weekend. It is unlikely that a filled refuse dump would be mined in the future. The Hon. R. I. Knowles-Perhaps a little bit of aluminium? The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Yes, possibly some salvage operation could be undertaken in the future when technology has improved to that extent. Apart from that remote possibility, there does not seem to be any possibility of mining occurring in any accepted sense of the word. The National Party is prepared to accept the Bill but it does not consider that as a precedent for the acceptance of similar clauses in Bills that come before the House in the future. Mr Macey suggested that it might be appropriate that the proclamation of the Bill be delayed until the review is completed. That idea has merit and I commend it to the government. I shall now take the opportunity of saying a few words about Sir Doug Nicholls. I had the honour and privilege to know Doug Nicholls when he lived in the area in Aboriginal Land (Northcote Land) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 513 which I was born. I well remember his visiting my parents' home on a number of occasions. He was a respected leader of the residents of Cummeragunga. It is well known that he made his mark in the community at large including his all too brief period as Governor of South Australia. I much regretted that I was absent interstate at the time of his funeral. I should have liked to be present because he was a man for whom I held a great deal of respect and he was a man who had done much for the community, especially in the area in which I have lived for most of my life. The National Party supports the proposed legislation. The Hon. JEAN McLEAN (BoroniaProvince)-I also support the Bill which gives the Aborigines Advancement League the freehold title over the land that will now become the Sir Douglas Nicholls Recreation Reserve. The land adjoins the league's recreation and educational 'centre and it is also the home of the Fitzroy Stars Koori football team. The land also serves a much wider purpose in the community as a venue for sports carnivals, the after-school programs, the Koori cricket team, family days, coalition meetings, little athletics, cultural days and many other activities in which the Koori community takes part. The oval is on the site ofa former tip. Before that it was an old quarry. Nevertheless it is of vital importance to the Koori community. I do not know how many honourable members have visited the league in Northcote but I am sure that those who have have been impressed as I am with the sorts of facilities that are supplied at that centre. They include a large welfare area where the elderly are assisted, which provides home help care, youth recreation programs and a large cultural resource centre as well as a library and a women's bureau. There is also a good recreational hall for dances and concerts. The reserve makes it possible for the Koori people to hold large programs at the ground .. I was also privileged to have known Sir Doug Nicholls. It is fitting that the oval has been named in his honour because of his many years of dedicated work in his community and also for the compassion and understanding he showed toward the white community, a compassion and understanding that was often not returned. The Cain government has a positive program of support for the Koori community in Victoria. It has assisted in arranging not only for the freehold land but also by purchasing other land and buildings in the metropolitan area and in the many country areas at the request ofthe community. The government also introduced the Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Bill and has provided support for the cooperatives. These issues are just a drop in the ocean in an attempt to redress the 200 years of neglect of the Aborigines who inhabited this land. Nonetheless, I believe both the State and Federal governments are now looking to empowering the Aborigines and enabling them to have recreation reserves such as the one provided in the Bill. It is a matter of great shame that the health of the Aborigines is worse than that of those of European descent; that child mortality rates are far higher than for other Australians; and that the percentage of Aborigines held in custody is far greater and the crimes committed are far more minor. We took their children, decimated their communities and stole their land. It is only in recent years that attempts are .being made to redress some of those issues. There is a huge reservoir of goodwill on the part of the Koori community towards the Australian population and that goodwill will grow and will be of enormous mutual benefit because of the sort of action that the government is now taking. The recreation reserve has played and will continue to play a vital role in the life of the Koori people. I commend the Bill to the House. Session 1989-17 514 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Aboriginal Land (Northcote Land) Bill

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-I support the Bill, as have other members who have spoken to it. As Mrs McLean said, it is a relatively small piece of proposed legislation dealing with a small area of land, but nonetheless it raises far more important issues for the Aboriginal community and its rights as citizens of Australia. Mr Baxter and Mr Macey have shown their support and obviously have taken an interest in the Aboriginal community in Melbourne. The Bill raises an issue regarding Aboriginal land. It always seems ludicrous that a white population that dispossessed the people of their land should sit in Parliament and return a little of that land to the Aborigines. I have conducted some research on Aboriginal rights and land rights and discovered the following interesting quotation: It might be asserted that the native inhabitants of any land have an incontrovertible right to their own soil: a plain and sacred right which seems not to have been understood. Europeans have entered their borders uninvited, and when there, have not only acted as if they were undoubted Lords of the Soil, but have punished the natives as aggressors if they evinced a disposition to live in their own country ... That comment was made by a Select Committee of the British House of Commons on Aborigines in 1837. The House of Commons recognised what had occurred in Australia. When Captain Cook landed in Australia he was acting under imperial orders which stated that he was, with the consent of the natives, to take possession. However, when he landed in 1770 he declared that the Australian continent was terra nullius-in other words, a wasteland and unoccupied. Therefore, the Aboriginal race was denied from that moment. The historic belief that Australia was peacefully settled had been perpetrated. I understand that you, Mr President, are demonstrating some body language, and that I am straying from the Bill at hand. I seek your indulgence in allowing me to pursue this line further. I ask for your protection because it is difficult for an independent member to raise these issues when he does not have the services provided to party members. Associated with the Bill is the act of returning land which was taken from the Aborigines. There is a long history of dispossession of the Aboriginal race which relates to the Bill because the provIsions refer to returning possession of land to the Aborigines. It is not outside the concept of the Bill to refer to that dispossession. As Mrs McLean said, Australia has moved particularly during the past ten or fifteen years to redress that original mistake made when the land was declared waste, without any human habitation. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Not everyone would agree with the theory you are espousing. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-I am telling you the facts; I am not espousing a theory. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Not everyone would say they are facts. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-IfMr Baxter examines Captain Cook's logbook he will discover that I am correct. I do not say Captain Cook ignored the population already here. To follow up Mr Baxter's interjection, I would be happy to pursue that line. The entire question of terra nullius was the subject of a court battle in 1975 concerning the Sahara Desert and the rights of indigenous people. In that case the court found that a declaration that a country or a land was terra nullius was absolutely against the charter of the United Nations and that of the World Court, and that no Aboriginal Land (Northcote Land) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 515

country which had indigenous people could ever be so declared. What occurred then was declared illegal by a court in 1975. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Ofwhatjurisdiction? The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-To take it further, I make a comparison with what has occurred in other countries, particularly one country that has a similar historical background to that of Australia. Canada has taken a different attitude regarding indigenous people, their protection under the law, their sovereignty and their possession of lands. The indigenous peoples of North America have been given rights and have been protected under legislation; they have also been given more under treaties than have the Australian Abori~nes. The aboriginal people of Canada are in a unique position within Canadian socIety and law. Recognition of the aboriginal title in Canada and the United States of America was introduced in 1770. Even the British Privy Council confirmed the existence of aboriginal titles in those lands, but that did not occur in Australia. There has been a failure of the common law and land rights in Australia. Since aboriginal rights have been recognised in virtually all parts of the common-law world, one may ask: why have Australian courts denied those rights to Australian Aborigines? The total denial of Aboriginal law as law can only be described as being carried out on the grounds of inconvenience, ignorance and self-interest. In a small way the Bill demonstrates that Australia has much further to go down the track before the problem is totally redressed. I remind the government that the Canadian aboriginal people-the Indians-have a representation of two senators in the Canadian Senate. Although it is not set out in the Constitution, it is understood by all parties in the Canadian Parliament that there shall be a minimum oftwo Indians in that Parliament. The New Zealand Constitution specifies that Maoris have a seat in that country's Parliament. The Maoris vote for their representative. The old Fijian Constitution contained rights for the indigenous people to be represented in Parliament. I have discussed this idea with members of the Aboriginal community. Victoria could set an example to other States and the Commonwealth by creating a 45th seat in this House to be held by an Aborigine elected by Aboriginal people. That would be a concrete way of demonstrating our recognition of the Aborigines being the original inhabitants of this land. By giving them permanency in this House we would be signifying that Aborigines do not belong to just another minority racial group in our community. This would set them apart. It would be our way of showin~ that the original inhabitants of this land should be recognised. It would give Abongines a permanent voice in this House. These dispossessed people, the remnants of a race that had its own culture and its own laws that were never recognised by white Australians, will at least be represented. A 45th seat in Parliament would be better than a treaty. It would be more than simply words on a piece of paper. It would be a constant demonstration of the rights of and the respect we have for the Aboriginal people. I thank you, Mr President, for your tolerance in allowing me to wander a little from the context of the Bill and I thank honourable members for not raising points of order because I did so. I ask the Minister in charge of the Bill in this House to give consideration to the proposition I have put forward. The motion was agreed to. 516 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Co-operative Housing Societies Bill

The Bill was read a second time. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. In doing so, I thank honourable members for their support for the Bill and their contributions to the second-reading debate. All honourable members are aware of the injustices that have been perpetrated on Aboriginal people. Although the Bill relates to a small area of land-3· 7 hectares-it has been obvious from the contributions by honourable members that they respect the spirit in which this land is bein~ granted to the Aboriginal people and know that in some way it goes towards redressIng some of the wrongs of the past. I comment on some matters raised. It should be recognised that the relationship of Aborigines to the land is not the same as the relationship of other cultures to land. Aborigines do not re~ard land as something to be simply bought and sold as a commodity. The condItions that attach to the Bill attempt to recognise that. The honourable members who raised the point about mining probably recognise the history of this site and would therefore understand that it is extremely unlikely that mining will take place on this land because of its previous use as a tip. It was excavated to a depth of some 150 feet. However, on a previous occasion when freehold land was granted to Aborigines, one of the terms of that grant was the right of consent to mining. For that reason, it has been included in the Bill. I thank honourable members for their support of the Bill. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING SOCIETIES (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from March 22) on the motion of the Hon. E. H. Walker (Minister for the Arts) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-This is a short Bill that effectively increases the limit of money that can be advanced under the Co-operative Housing Societies Act from $265 million to $400 million. The Opposition supports the Bill. The cooperative housing society movement over the years has done tremendous work for people in this community, especially young people. It has given many young people who otherwise would not have had access to funds the opportunity of achieving the ambition of so many people in our community, to own their own homes. At one stage I was a director of a cooperative housing society. It was always rewarding to assist young people who would not otherwise have been able to take the first step towards achieving home ownership. The Opposition is pleased that the government has recognised-perhaps belatedly­ the need to increase the limit that may be owed under the provisions of the princIpal Act. I say "belatedly" because one of the matters that concerned the Opposition about the Bill was that it is impossible to find out just how much money is owing under various cooperative housing society arrangements. In another place questions were raised about this matter and the Minister undertook to provide answers. By way of illustration of the problems, the most recent reports of the Registrar of Co-operative Housing Societies and the Registrar of Co-operative Societies are for the year ended 30 June 1987. As we are now close to June 1989, the figures set out in those Co-operative Housing Societies Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 517 reports are very much behind the times and do not provide the information that members of the House and the public are entitled to have about the financial dealings and affairs of these societies. The explanation provided by the government, at the request of the Opposition, is that the statistical information for these reports has been provided by the Australian Bureau of Statistics and from returns lodged by societies. More recent statistics from the Australian Bureau of Statistics are not yet available. In fact, the government said that the Australian Bureau of Statistics information for the period in question would be made available some months ago. As at the date the government said that-a week or so ago-the information had not been released. The Opposition was also told that following the implementation of the computerisation program in the Corporate Affairs Office the need to use Australian Bureau of Statistics material would be removed and up-to-date annual reports would be provided. I look forward to receiving up-to-date annual reports in years to come. Perhaps that statement will be put to the test when the annual reports for the current financial year are completed. It is also good to hear, albeit in passing, that the computerisation program of the Corporate Affairs Office has now been implemented. I remember the former Attorney­ General telling the House about five years ago that he would carry out his earlier promise to appoint more people to the staff of the office so that a computerisation program could be implemented. I am pleased to hear, some five years later, that that program is now in place. The other difficulty the Opposition had in examining the Bill was that it appeared from what information was available that the limit of$265 million had been exceeded. There are no up-to-date reports, but working on the material that was available, it did appear that an amount greatly in excess of $265 million was being guaranteed under the Bill. Again, I thank the Minister for arranging to provide an answer to this problem. The answer that has been provided is that the government's liability for guarantees is the total amount of guarantees executed, less the amount already discharged and repaid. It is pointed out that loan repayments are made continuously, and it is asserted that the Treasurer's liabilities for cooperative housing societies, which is limited to $265 million, is not in breach. I say "asserted" because it seems quite clear that the government cannot give the actual figure which is outstanding. It says the only way to get that figure would be by asking every cooperative housing society how much has been paid off the loans which have been advanced and then, by working out what was left owing, one would find out what the total extent of the guarantee would be. Admittedly, that would be a large task to undertake, but it does illustrate that the government really does not know whether the statutory limit has been exceeded or not, and it is typical of the way the government conducts its financial affairs in this State. It does not take action to achieve amendments to an Act when they are obviously required, but then it comes in rather limply, late in the piece, asking Parliam"ent to approve an amendment which is obviously well overdue. It seems we cannot obtain any further information than that which has been provided at present. However, I ask the Minister to ensure that in future the responsible Ministers make sure that statements which appear in published accounts are explained so that what they really represent can be known by the public because, on face value, the accounts that were available in this instance did make it look as though that 518 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Co-operative Housing Societies Bill statutory limit had been exceeded. With that request, the Opposition supports the Bill even though there is no Minister in the House-- The Hon. R. I. Knowles-Mr President, I direct your attention to the state of the House. A quorum was formed. The Hon. HADDON STOREY-I thank honourable members for entering the Chamber. It enables me to say that I have said all that I wanted to say on the Bill. The Opposition supports it. The Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western Province)-I am pleased to have the opportunity of presenting the National Party's view on this small but significant Bill. It is a simple Bill, consisting of two main clauses. Le~slative changes brought about by the Bill will be minimal. Firstly, the Bill will Increase the aggregate liability permissible under Treasurer's guarantees under the Cooperative Housin~ Society Act 1958; and, secondly, it will amend section 75 of the Act to increase the hability from $265 million to $400 million. The increase in the guaranteed fund limit will also mean that more funds are made available by lending institutions to the cooperative housing societies and, although the increase from $265 million to $400 million seems to be quite significant, the Federation of Cooperative Housing Societies in actual fact originally requested and would have preferred an increase in the guarantee limit to $1 billion. The National Party supports the Bill even though it would have liked to see the guarantee limit increased to $1 billion, which would have ensured more funds for cooperative housing societies and provided a more realistic long-term provision which would have alleviated the problem in future of first home buyers having to take out insurance policies to guarantee the cover under the liability. Also, it would have guaranteed and recognised the role of cooperative housing societies and the role that the government sees them playing in providing low and middle-income earners with the opportunity of obtaining their first homes. By not approving an increase to $1 billion the government has not really accepted or appreciated the rate of inflation or the costs associated throughout the building industry which are escalating at an alarming rate. At this stage it is important to question the government's attitude to the long-term future of cooperative housing societies and what the government sees as their role and their ability to meet the problems associated with lower and middle-income earners trying to purchase their first homes, and the government's policy towards them. We must also question the government's intention to assist first home buyers and low-income earners, and whether it is truly prepared to help finance these people with their first homes. Many people are concerned that in the near future, because the government has not given consideration to the costs I have mentioned, that figure of $400 million will be easily and quickly attained. That was outlined by the previous speaker. Recently, I read in the newspaper of an increase over the past three years of some 347 per cent in funds lent by cooperative housing societies. Last year they lent in the vicinity of$380 million, so by not increasing the amount to $1 billion the government has not really considered the future of cooperative housing societies. It gives an indication of a matter to which not a lot of thought or understanding has been given, and that is the rate of inflation and the present demand placed on the housing industry throughout Victoria. Given those figures, I am concerned that the borrowers may again be faced with insurance fees in the near future. Transfer ofLand (Computer Register) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 519

We have already seen the dramatic effect of Federal government intervention with interest rates and what that has done to the building and housing industries. Industry sources reveal that, progressively, first home buyers are responsible for a pro~essively lower percentage of homes being constructed. Accordingly, the amendment In the Bill may provide the opportunity for the imbalance to be corrected, which would take the pressure off the growing public housing demand. The government has not attacked this aspect with the vigour and attitude that I should like to have seen. At present when a cooperative housing society exceeds the limit of $265 million, the borrower must take out mortgage insurance, which could add between $750 and $1000 in costs that the borrower must find. Theoretically, by guaranteeing these funds the borrower would not be responsible for added costs when purchasing a house. It is evident that first home buyers or builders are suffering. Cooperative housing societies play a major part in making available funds to these people. With escalating interest rates it is becomin~ increasingly more difficult for borrowers to take the initiative in purchasing thelr first homes. Although the provision to increase the guarantee limit from $265 million to $400 million is an attempt by the government to assist housing societies, it does not go anywhere near a commitment of guaranteeing that low-income and middle-income earners will have the opportunity of moving into their first homes. The National Party does not want to impede the Bill because it will assist cooperative housing societies to provide more funds, but the Bill demonstrates that the government has not had much foresi~t in attacking the housing problem. It is becoming increasingly clear from walting lists for public accommodation and from problems associated with people trying to purchase their first homes that the government is not doing its job. Honourable members of this House will be faced with this problem when they attempt to assist their children in realising the Australian dream of home ownership. Unfortunately, the gap is widening dramatically. Members of the National and Liberal parties recognise that the intervention of the Federal Treasurer in the finance market has had a significant impact on Australians not realising their dreams. I support the Bill because it will assist cooperative housing societies in providing financial assistance to low-income and middle-income earners. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. In so doing, I thank both Mr Best and Mr Storey for their support. It is a small but important Bill, and I appreciate their allowing the passage of the Bill to be expedited. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time.

TRANSFER OF LAND (COMPUTER REGISTER) BILL The debate (adjourned from April 11) on the motion of the Hon. M. A. Lyster (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province)-The Transfer of Land (Computer Register) Bill is an important Bill for all Victorians. The Opposition 520 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Transfer ofLand (Computer Register) Bill supports the Bill, provided that the amendment to be proposed later in Committee is accepted. The proposed amendment concerns the reporting of substantial changes in the way the transfer ofland-- The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Do you support the second reading or not? The Hon. K. M. SMITH-The Opposition certainly supports the Bill and looks forward to it being passed. The Bill will ensure that all Victorians benefit from the changes made in this archaic and time-consuming but necessary service that has been offered in this State since 1835 when land was first registered. The Land Titles Office staff do a magnificent job but they are under a great deal of pressure. Honourable members should be aware of the volume of land transactions that have been undertaken by the 675 employees. The Land Titles Office handles in excess of 500000 dealings each year-a massive number. In 1987-88 there were 1 057000 searches of land titles from the records. Although all searches do not result in dealings, some 650 000 dealings were registered. There are currently 2 million live titles showing current proprietorship information. The Registrar of Titles and his staff maintain some 1 million cancelled titles that show historic information. In addition, there are some 13 million instruments showing the details of current endorsements on titles. These relate to mortgages, leases, transfers from one owner to another, death notifications and so on. This creates a huge amount of paperwork for the 675 employees. These records take up five floors of the building and occupy some 5200 linear metres of shelving. That is a huge area and demonstrates that the Land Titles Office is a large paper factory which creates significant storage problems. Honourable members will be aware that any paper-based record results in deterioration in addition to creating storage problems. The work is extremely labour intensive. The storage of paper is a problem in today's world. All communities must upgrade their storage systems. Victorians must bring the Land Titles Office into this century and project it into the year 2000 and beyond. The best way of dealing with this problem is by computerisation. Some of that has already occurred with LANDAT A facilities that are now available in centres throughout Victoria. That program is an example of what people can expect from the Land Titles Office in the future. Computerisation will simplify the processes of land transactions. My colleague Mr Haddon Storey was responsible for establishing a committee to consider the introduction of a Bill such as the one before the House today. That was seven years ago. Unfortunately, it has taken the Labor government that time to have the Bill introduced. It is important that the amount of information currently stored in Queen Street should be brought into this century. Honourable members should congratulate Mr Storey for being responsible for this Bill which has, at long last, been introduced by the government. I wonder why the government has taken so long to have the Bill introduced. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-You had 27 years and did not get around to it. A great debater you are! The Hon. K. M. SMITH-I pick up the interjection ofMr Landeryou, who was out of his seat when he made it. The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-So what! Transfer ofLand (Computer Register) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 521

The Hon. K. M. SMITH-It may have taken a long time for the Liberal government to have the Bill reach that stage, but it has taken the Labor government seven years to have the Bill introduced and debated. Of course, when it comes to proposed legislation that the Labor Party's loony left and its wacky fringe ~oup people want introduced in a hurry, the government finds it extremely easy to bnng it forward; such legislation does not assist all Victorians, but it certainly assists the left-wing radicals that the government supports. The computerisation of the Land Titles Office will improve the land information service in this State. It will become a one-stop shop. That is important to people when time is precious and they would like at least to be able to go to just one place to obtain the information they need instead of having to scurry all over cities and towns to find out about the block of land they may be considerin$ purchasing. Developers need information about the way they will be able to subdiVIde land, exactly what they will be allowed to do, what sort of drainage and State Electricity Commission easements might exist on the land, and so on. When the Bill is passed, and eventually when it is fully implemented, people will be able to go to the one-stop shop and take their task of obtaining information in their stride, in one easy go. The information will be provided to them with a minimum of fuss, particularly if the staff of the Land Titles Office continue to provide the same service they have been providing over the years. They have been handicapped and hamstrung by the amount of work they have had to do under the old-fashioned system of searching for property titles. People will also be able to go to that one-stop shop to find out not only about easements on properties but also about whether there are any provisions for road­ making on their properties, how much their rate payments are likely to be, whether they be Board of Works rates or council rates, or anything that may constitute a financial impediment to their purchasing the property. The ability to obtain all that information from one place will make life much easier for many people. Naturally, everybody wants an efficient, speedy and accurate service but, above all, it has to be a cheap service. It is no use updating something and then moving it out of the clutches of the people who may wish to be provided with the service but who find it is far too expensive for them to handle. Keepin$ the costs down will be very necessary, and honourable members will have to consIder the matter further. The Bill also contains what I call foundation clauses, which will allow the Registrar of Titles, when dealing with land transfers, to transmit to the taxation authorities notices of dispossession and acquisition in all transactions. That will make it much easier for the State Taxation Office to calculate the amount of land tax payable on properties. The Liberal Party recognises the need for the Registrar of Titles to introduce necessary changes in technology and realises also that he will have wide-ranging powers to make such changes without undue delay. Of course, the registrar should be able to correct patent errors that he may find in the documents, but he should not be able just to erase them or make them illegible. If changes need to be made to documents he should be able to make them there and then, initial them, and ensure that any changes made are well documented and done quite easily without having to make representations to Parliament for minor corrections. The Opposition is prepared to give the Registrar of Titles the power to make such changes, but it believes any substantial changes that need to be made should be notified to Parliament. In this regard I propose to move an amendment during the Committee stage which I believe will not make it too difficult for the registrar to notify 522 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Transfer ofLand (Computer Register) Bill

Parliament of such substantial changes. I do not believe there will be any difficulty in making the amendment in the Bill. The registrar will be allowed the flexibility to make minor changes but under my foreshadowed amendment he will have to notify Parliament of any substantial changes. Victoria has been very slow to adopt a computerised system for the registration of titles. In fact, New South Wales, Tasmania and Queensland have systems already installed. One has only to consider that they are States governed by conservative parties, and one wonders why Victoria is somewhat behind the times. Of course, the government has not been slow to pick up the huge amounts of money that it receives from stamp duties imposed on property owners. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-It is a good milking cow. The Hon. K. M. SMITH-Yes, it is. Stamp duty fees have been escalating over the years and they are now out of all proportion. I shall quote some figures from the Budget Papers regarding stamp duty. In 1982-83, the year in which the Labor government took office, $13·8 million was collected in stamp duty on property transfers. The government has budgeted for approximately $ 770 million to be collected this year. However, I noticed an article that appeared in the Age of 22 April this year headed "Coffers swelled by stamp duty windfall". When I quote the figures, honourable members will understand the way the government has been ripping off not only the small house buyers, the people who have transferred their properties, but also developers. The article states: Figures released yesterday show that the government collected $130 million in stamp duty fees during February ... That is, in one month: ... and that with $989 million collected so far this financial year the government was well on the way towards collecting the budgeted $1300 million. This is almost double the amount that the government estimated in the Budget Papers that it would collect. The way in which the government is continuing to collect stamp duty is dis~aceful. It is just taking advantage of this huge windfall and is not really taking into consideration the people it is burdening financially by the imposition of stamp duty. The article demonstrates that, despite the fact that the ~overnment talks about a social justice strategy, there is not very much social justice In the strategy it is using in the collection of taxes in this State. People are being ripped offby the government. Members of the government talk about first home buyers being exempt from the payment of stamp duty-of course, with certain restrictions. As was mentioned earlier today, people are supposed to have one child and be married before they are eligible for the exemption. The PRESIDENT-Order! I ask Mr Smith to now return to the Bill. The Hon. K. M. SMITH-Mr President, I have strayed away from it slightly, and I appreciate your indulgence. The imposition of stamp duty makes it extremely difficult for people to cope. The government is certainly restructuring the Land Titles Office, and I imagine at some time in the future when it has to do something about relieving the pressure placed on people by stamp duty, it will obviously have to get the money from elsewhere. As I said before, there is a need for the government to provide a better service more cheaply. That is important, but I do not believe it is possible for the government to Transfer ofLand (Computer Register) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 523 provide a better and cheaper service through the Land Titles Office. It has not done so in the past seven years, and I do not believe it is capable of doing so in the future. One has only to consider the way high interest rates will dampen the economy to understand that that will make it difficult for people to purchase houses. Properties will not be transferred quite as quickly or as often as they are now. Therefore, stamp duty will not be able to be collected to the same extent as at present and, obviously, the ~overnment will have to make up that deficit from somewhere else. I tend to think it WIll probably be from additional charges loaded into the Land Titles Office. When the Minister for Property and Services was making a contribution to the debate on the Bill in the other place-- The PRESIDENT-Order! I remind Mr Smith that he cannot refer to a debate in the other place. The Hon. K. M. SMITH-I shall not quote the debate, but, unfortunately, it appears that the Minister is expecting the Bill to assist people working in the Land Titles Office. That is sad because the service the office provides for the people is the important factor and not necessarily the service provided to the people working in the office. I cannot quote from the H ansard record of the debate in the other place, but I believe that is what the Minister for Property and Services is thinking. The automation of the Land Titles Office was an initiative of the former Liberal government and Mr Storey. After seven years it appears that it will take place. The Liberal Party supports the Bill. During the Committee stage the Opposition will propose amendments. They are not major amendments, but the Opposition believes the re~strar should be accountable to Parliament on substantial matters. The OpPosItion supports the Bill and is pleased that, at long last, the archaic and inefficient operations of the Land Titles Office will change. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The Land Titles Office and the work it undertakes is an absolutely fascinating subject. On a number of occasions I have visited the office, sometimes on behalf of constituents, but on my most recent inspection I went with some of my colleagues with a view to gaining a' better understanding of the import of the Bill presently before the House. I have often thought that if I were not a member of Parliament or a farmer I might have liked to work in the Land Titles Office. It has an enormous volume of historical material. I find it amazing that the system was first developed and that one can look at a title and follow a chain of events. By reading the information on the title one can discover when it was first issued and, through the registrations and dealings on the reverse, one can learn the history of a certain parcel of land. The Land Titles Office is, by and large, an Australian invention. It was first put in place by Torrens in South Australia. Torrens could not be considered to be an Australian; I believe he was an Englishman. However, the office was first put in place in the colonies of Australia. Over many years we have been well served by the system. Certainly, any titles still in existence that are under the general law rather than the Torrens system are far more complicated and costly when it comes to effecting a transfer. There are some millions of pieces of paper at the Land Titles Office in Queen Street, a fact to which Mr Smith alluded. When I was a new member in the other place I telephoned the Land Titles Office and inquired on behalf of a constituent about the rate of progress of a dealing that was to be registered. The gentleman at the office was helpful but told me I had to remember that there were 15 million pieces of paper at the office and it takes a while to locate a particular piece. When I visited the office I 524 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Transfer ofLand (Computer Register) Bill saw what he meant. I did not understand what the folio book was, but I have now seen the canvas bags and know what a task it is with so many separate items at the office. I do not believe Mr Smith was being critical of the staff of the Land Titles Office in some of his remarks; I believe he was being more critical of the government for failing to make adequate resources available. In any dealings I have had with the office over the years I have had nothing but unfailing courtesy from the staff and a willingness to assist me. I understand the Bill will bring the registration process into the modem technology and computer age. However, that is not to say that progress has not been made in the past few years. Anyone who goes to the Land Titles Office will see members of the public, if they are sufficiently skilled, and agents of title research companies or solicitors' clerks using computer equipment-which they queue up to use-to ascertain information about titles. That has been a significant advance in recent years. A further advance is the ability of members of the public, particularly members of Parliament, to telephone the office, give a dealing number and be instantaneously apprised of the rate of progress of a dealing. I shall not apportion credit for that progress to either the previous government or the present government. Progress has been made and this proposal will be a quantum leap forward. However, it is an issue of such moment that I do not want it to be rushed. I am not saying it has been rushed, nor am I saying it has been unduly delayed-I do not know. However, I am saying it is a tremendous step forward. I am told that most titles are activated at least once every seven years on average. Averages can be misleading and, clearly, many titles have to have some type of dealing registered on them more often than once every seven years. I looked at a title I have in my possession and I noticed that it was first issued in 1923. Its next dealing was not until 1950, when the owner died. There were further dealings in 1953, 1954 and 1966. Over some 66 years there have been only four dealings, so the average of seven years does not apply in that case. The title to which I referred is not a typical title because it has never been given as security for a mortgage as most titles are. Clearly, the average of seven years is misleading and some titles do not see the light of day very often while others need to have transfers and so on registered frequently. A better system needs to be put in place and we now have the technology to do that. I make a plea that these documents of historic nature are preserved. There is an enormous amount of history at Queen Street and no-one doubts that. It should be preserved and protected for the future, and I am sure it will be. I have had discussions with the registrar and I am assured that the paper at the office, while it will be superseded by a different form of record keeping, will go into the archives. Clearly it cannot be kept at Queen Street occupying a vast amount of space on prime real estate. A decision will have to be made for it to be located elsewhere and I am sure that will be done satisfactorily. A further plea I make is that consideration be given to enabling the duplicate title which is held by the owner, to be retained once it is replaced by the new form. I agree that that will not be easy because one must guard against fraud, deception or the appearance of a title being in existence when it no longer exists. Some of the titles are documents of sentiment held by families; I refer especially to titles that are the original Crown grants and a number of those still exist. I have an old title which was issued, I think, in 1874 and which is still in the family. It is signed in flowery handwriting by the Governor of the day. It will have merit and Transfer ofLand (Computer Register) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 525 value if important documents of that nature are allowed to stay in existence in the hands of those who currently have them. It may mean that those titles should be marked by a rubber stamp or in some other fashion to indicate that they are redundant and no longer of effect. There will be an outcry from a significant sector of the community if all the titles are called in to be destroyed and pass out of the hands of people who currently hold them. I make a plea to the Minister to give consideration to a mechanism that would allow at least the important historic documents to remain in existence. The Bill is technical in nature. The honourable members for Murray Valley and Gippsland East in another place and I have had an extensive briefing from the Registrar of Titles and the Minister's officers. We are confident that what is being put in place will 'be effective. Some teething problems may occur, but considerable investigation has taken place and it is hoped the problems will be foreseen. The National Party looks forward to the system being up and running fairly soon. I am not sure what the system will do to the decentralisation project at Morwell where titles are sent, typed up and then sent back to Melbourne. On its face value, it appears to be an extraordinarily inefficient system, but I am assured by my colleague Mr Hall, the Land Titles Office and the Minister, by interjection, that it is an extremely efficient process. One could say that it is another indication of the dedication of country people to doing a fair day's work. I hope the employment generated by the Land Titles Office can continue even when the new system commences. The National Party supports the Bill. I shall examine Mr Smith's proposed amendments during the Committee stage and give them due attention. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and committed. Clauses 1 to 5 were agreed to. Clause 6 The Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province)-I move: Clause 6, after line 27, insert- 'Report of substantial change in form of Register "7A. (1) If- (a) under section 27 (2) (b) the Registrar varies the medium, form or manner in which the Register or a part of the Register is kept; and (b) the Registrar considers that the variation represents a substantial change in the medium, form or manner in which the Register or that part of the Register is kept- the Registrar must, before the end of 28 days after the day on which the variation was made, report the variation to the Minister. (2) A report under sub-section (1) must- (a) be prepared in a form determined by the Registrar to be appropriate; and (b) set out details ofthe variation and the reasons for it; and (c) contain any further information required by the Minister. (3) The Minister must cause any report to the Minister under this section to be laid before the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly within 7 sitting days of the Legislative Council or the Legislative Assembly, as the case may be, after the report has been received by the Minister. 526 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Transfer ofLand (Computer Register) Bill

(4) If the Registrar fails to submit a report under sub-section (1) ofthe variation to the Minister before the end of the 28th day after the day on which the variation is made, the Minister must report or cause to be reported that failure and the reasons for the failure to each House ofParliament.".' The Liberal Party believes the Registrar of Titles should have flexibility to operate the Land Titles Office but at the same time be accountable to Parliament by reporting to Parliament in a simple way any substantial changes he deems should be made to the register. The amendment has merit and recognises the requirements of Parliament and the need for it to be well informed about the workings of the Land Titles Office. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-If the government believed the amendment to be necessary or productive it would consider it, but it does not believe it is necessary because clause 7 inserts proposed new section 27 which requires the Registrar of Titles to inform the Minister of any changes to the register, which would be incorporated in the annual report tabled in Parliament. The government opposes the amendment. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-I have examined the amendment and listened to the argument put forward by Mr Smith, but I am not persuaded by the reasons he gave for the amendment. I agree that any substantial change in the form of the register is important and that Parliament ought to be apprised of that, but the Bill provides for that in the tabling of the annual report in Parliament, so Parliament will know at least once a year of any changes. The Committee must also consider what would be a "substantial change in the form of the register" if the amendment were adopted. It is highly unlikely that substantial changes would be made to the register without considerable publicity and I do not want the amendment to restrain the Registrar of Titles in making valid changes to the register because of a need to advise Parliament of that change, which may so constrain him. On balance, as the Bill inserts a new section 27, I do not believe the amendment is necessary and on this occasion endorse the Minister's stance. The Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern Province )-Annual reports tend to be lost. If a decision were made to alter the register just after the presentation of the annual report to Parliament it may be a long time before Parliament is formally notified of such a change. Some annual reports have been tabled in Parliament up to eighteen months after the due date and Parliament may not be aware of any substantial changes to the register for a long period. I well remember Mr Baxter referring to the fact that it takes an inordinate length of time for some government bodies to present their annual reports. The amendment is not a reflection on the Registrar of Titles, and the Opposition believes he should have the flexibility to make changes as he sees fit, but it also believes those changes should be reported to Parliament as soon as possible. The amendment was negatived, and the clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses and the schedules. The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and the report was adopted. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. State Insurance Office (Amendment) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 527

In so doing, I thank Mr Smith and Mr Baxter for their contributions to the debate. Parliament is effecting a significant change with the passing of the Bill. It will be a change in the interests of the communities honourable members serve. I thank also the staff of the Land Titles Office who have worked on the Bill with members of the House. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time. The sitting was suspended at 6.22 p.m. untif8.3 p.m. STATE INSURANCE OFFICE (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from April 11) on the motion of the Hon. D. R. White (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY (Nunawading Province)-This Bill is the same as a Bill that was debated before Parliament was prorogued and an election was held, so the debate on all the issues has taken place. The State Insurance Office (Amendment) Bill increases the number of members of the State Insurance Office board from five to seven. The Bill also separates the State Insurance Office life insurance fund from other funds. This will reflect the arrangements imposed on private insurers under Commonwealth legislation. The Bill applies the Borrowing and Investment Powers Act to State Insurance Office investment powers. It also contains some transitional provisions. The Opposition supports the Bill but is concerned about the level of some of the high risk investments that appear to be undertaken by the State Insurance Office. The increase in the number of board members from five to seven will hopefully allow for an improvement in the expertise of members rather than having as members only those people the government considers appropriate. One of the problems with the Victorian Economic Development Corporation was that the level of expertise in that line of business was conspicuously absent among board members. If the increase in the number of members of the State Insurance Office board strengthens the level of expertise of members of the board, the Opposition would regard that as an important improvement. The provisions of the Bill mirror what happens in the private sector insurance industry and the Opposition sees that as an improvement also. It will help to bring the public sector into line with the private sector. A major concern is that the State Insurance Office, like many other instrumentalities, is being used by the government to milk disguised taxes. The government is using instrumentalities to broaden its revenue-collecting base. As I said, the Opposition supports the Bill with those minor reservations. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources)-By leave, I move: That this Bill be now read a third time. In so doing, I thank Mrs Varty for her support and also the National Party. I welcome the return to a coalition position which has seen the National Party defer on this issue. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a third time. 528 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Sale ofLand (Amendment) Bill

SALE OF LAND (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from March 22) on the motion of the Hon. E. H. Walker (Minister for the Arts) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The sale of Land (Amendment) Bill is quite an important Bill. It is important because it affects the sale and purchase of land and, for most people in our community, the purchase of a block of land or a house is one of the most significant purchases they make in their lifetime. Over a period of years Parliament has amended the Sale of Land Act to try to remove the problems which may arise during the sale and purchase of land and to ensure that parties are fully aware of the consequences of their decisions to purchase. That has been affected, to a large extent, also by the common practice that exists today of auctions of properties. Many years ago that was uncommon and most people brought a piece of land or a house after negotiation with the other party and after arriving at an acceptable set of terms. Today the common practice, with residential land at least, is for there to be an auction. People have a contract presented to them before the auction; they read it through-I suppose many do not really know what it all means-they go to the auction and they bid. Often they get carried away and bid more than they thought they were going to bid and find themselves as the purchasers of that piece of land. Over a number of years Parliament has ensured that the maximum amount of information possible is provided to persons involved in these sorts of transactions so that they know before they sign a contract what is likely to be the case. That applies to residential land. Parliament also dealt with the question of deposits. In the past when somebody contracted to buy real estate they paid a deposit of usually 10 per cent of the purchase price and then sometimes something went wrong between the date of the contract of sale and the date of the settlement. Then all sorts of problems arose as to what happened to the deposit. Was it repayable to the purchaser? Was it possible to get it away from the agent who had paid it into the agent's trust account or what happened to it? Therefore, gradually the Sale of Land Act has changed to provide more information to people, to provide rules for determining what happens to a deposit and, thirdly, to provide a cooling-off period. Again, that applies only to residential properties where the purchaser buys not at auction but in an ordinary contractual relationship where there has been time for the purchaser to rethink before they are bound to go on with the transaction. The Bill is intended simply to require more information to be made available to a purchaser before entering into a contract, and to effect the cooling-off period and, in fact, to extend the cooling-off period to a greater range of transactions. It is an important Bill because it will affect the rights of people in what is generally the most important transaction into which they enter in their lives. The Law Institute of Victoria and the Real Estate Institute of Victoria-one being a body of solicitors involved in these transactions and the other being a body of real estate agents involved in these transactions-have expressed views on the Bill. They are not against the Bill, in principle, in any way but rather they deal with many of the details of the Bill. Sale ofLand (Amendment) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 529

It is not appropriate in the debate to go through every clause of the Bill and deal with the detail of every clause but a number of the aspects of the clauses, in the view of the Opposition, require amendment. Some of the requirements of the Bill are either inappropriate or just too particular. They place too great a burden upon a vendor in providing information before a contract is entered into, so when the Bill moves into the Committee stage I shall be moving a number of amendments, on behalf of the Opposition, which will seek to refine some of the provisions and make less onerous some of the obligations upon the vendor, and also alter the provisions relating to cooling-off periods because they seem to go beyond what is necessary, in the view of the Opposition, and also in the view of the Law Institute and the Real Estate Institute. It is interesting that the government, in introducing the Bill, is not only attempting to fix up what might be seen as some of the problems that exist in the legislation already, but to some extent it seems to be motivated by an almost ideological approach to· the Bi11. That is why it is important to receive views from people such as lawyers and real estate agents involved in these transactions. They are intent upon havIng the most effective sort of legislation, and legislation which facilitates these transactions without placing undue burdens upon people. It is for these reasons that they make some valid points in terms of amendments that need to be moved. The result of both previous Bills to amend the Sale of Land Act and, indeed, this Bill has been the reverse of what the government often talks about, which is to simplify paperwork. Years ago, before the Sale of Land Act was amended to introduce all of these requirements, most people entering into a contract to purchase or sell some real estate had a fairly simple document consisting of about four pages which constituted the contract of sale. Anybody who has recently entered into a contract of sale, particularly for residential property, will recall that they received a very thick document setting out all sorts of information which is helpful to the purchaser, in particular, because it sets out particulars of rating information, planning Information and whether or not there are any obligations involving the property enforced by various statutory authorities which have power to impose restrictions upon the use of property. The contract is voluminous in its nature and helps a prospective purchaser to know where he or she stands on the purchase of the property, so the Opposition in no way opposes the concept of these amendments, but it has a number of reservations about the detail, which I will go into during the Committee stage. Subject to that, the Opposition supports the notion of trying to refine and improve the Act, and the Bill goes some way towards that, or at least will go much further towards it after the Opposition's amendments have been accepted by the government, as we truly hope they will be. The Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland Province)-The Bill is all about consumer protection, and the National Party supports the concept that consumers, no matter what types of goods they may be purchasing, need to be provided with adequate levels of protection. In the Bill we are talking about land purchases, and the point should be made quite clearly from the beginning that the problems that have arisen with land sales in recent years have not arisen where transactions have taken place through licensed real estate agents; rather, some problems have occurred when some land transactions have taken place throu~ private land developers who are unlicensed agents and who, as the Minister saId in his second-reading speech, are often dealing with some misleading information or have marketing practices that are dubious. When a consumer buys land through a licensed agent, he or she already has some degree of protection built into the operation through the code of ethics in the Estate 530 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Sale ofLand (Amendment) Bill

Agents Act under which a licensed agent conducts his practice. If there is a breakdown in that code of ethics, the estate agent runs the risk of losing his or her licence. There is also an additional protection measure or guarantee under the Estate Agents Guarantee Fund. If there is a misappropriation of funds in a land transaction, the guarantee fund provides the consumer with some protection and a right to recover any money that may be lost. It is only because of private land sales transacted through unlicensed private developers that some of the problems creating the need for the amendments in this measure have arisen. Why have additional measures been placed on all real estate transactions when the problems relate only to deals transacted by unlicensed private developers? It may be more appropriate to introduce proposed legislation dealing specifically with private land sales rather than having all-encompassing legislation which takes into account all land sales, whether they be through licensed agents or through private developers. I now turn to the provisions in the Bills that concern the National Party. The first involves the disclosure of vendors' mortgages. I ask the Minister for the Arts to clarify the circumstances by which a vendor is required to disclose a mortgage on the property. The Minister has not made that clear in his second-reading speech. The National Party is not concerned about an existing mortgage that is discharged on settlement. There is no need to have any mortgage or money owing on the land disclosed to a prospective purchaser in that case. However, if a mortgage is not to be discharged on settlement, a prospective purchaser will not know what moneys may still be owing by the vendor on the land he or she may be purchasing. I ask the Minister to clarify the circumstances under which an existing mortgage needs to be disclosed. Secondly, I refer to the disclosure of charges. Section 32 (cl) (i) of the Sale of Land Act states that charges owing on the land to be sold are required to be disclosed to prospective purchasers. Already under the Act there is a requirement that certain charges be disclosed. Section 32 (cl) (i) states that the following must be disclosed: the amount of any rates, taxes, charges or other similar outgoings affecting the land and any interest payable on any part ofthose rates, taxes, charges or out-goings which is unpaid including any rates, taxes, charges or outgoings for which the purchaser may become liable in consequence of the sale and which the vendor might reasonably be expected to have knowledge of; The Bill proposes that paragraph (aa) should be inserted in section 32 (2) of the Act. I believe that provision asks for exactly the same thing to be disclosed. The proposed paragraph (aa) reads: Particulars of any charge (whether registered or not) over the land imposed by or under an Act to secure an amount due under that Act, including the amount owing under the charge;"; Once again I ask the Minister to explain to me the difference between what is being asked for in the principal Act in section 32 (cl) (i) where it refers to "the amount of any rates, taxes, charges" and proposed paragraph (aa) which refers to disclosure of "particulars of any charge". I cannot understand the difference between those two provisions. Indeed, section 32 (cl) (i) of the principal Act specifies more clearly the exact items that are required to be disclosed to a prospective purchaser. I also refer to the disclosure of the cost of finance. If a property is being financed under vendor terms, what is required to be disclosed to the purchaser is the cost of the vendor's finance and also the annual percentage rate applicable to that finance. The National Party has no objection to that. A purchaser has every right, if purchasing under vendor terms, to have spelt out clearly what the percentage rate and cost of the vendor's finance will be. The only objection is the National Party believes it should be included in the contract of sale rather than in the vendor's statement. The vendor's statement is a Sale ofLand (Amendment) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 531 statement of all the fixed conditions relating to the sale: any planning encumbrances on the property, any rates and charges relating to the property and so on. The contract of sale is the appropriate place to include those items which are negotiated, such as the price of the land, the cost of the vendor's finance, the percentage rate of vendor's finance and so on. In the Committee stage the National Party will propose that the disclosure of the cost of the finance would be better included in the contract of sale than in the vendor's statement. I refer also to proposed paragraph (ca) which states: "In the case of land that is vacant and is not in the metropolitan area, a warning to the effect that purchasers who propose to build a dwelling-house on the land should check whether a permit or consent is required under any relevant building law before the work can be carried out;"; My comments on that provision are straightforward and simple. I believe it to be illegal to build a house in Victoria unless one has a permit from the relevant authority; in most cases it would be the municipal council. This provision issues a warning to people to check whether a permit is required. So far as I know, it is legally required. Therefore I see no purpose in having that provision in the Bill. Finally I refer to the cooling-off provision which will amend the Sale of Land Act by increasing the "prescribed amount" from $125 000 to $250 000. That is an excessive figure. I understood one of the main purposes of the cooling-off provisions when they were introduced was to provide for a small investor who may have had a rush of blood and committed himself or herself beyond his or her means to have the opportunity of rethinking the situation. Anyone with $250 000 to spend on a house should be capable of thinking wisely and should not have this three-day cooling-off period available. The extension of that limit to $250 000 is excessive. In the Committee stage I shall expand on my comments to assist in preventing some of the harmful practices of private land developers. I respect a belief that separate measures dealing purely with private land sales would be far more effective in countering the problems that have arisen and which require the need for those measures. However, the National Party has always been a cooperative party, so with its renewed spirit of cooperation it will not stand in the way of the passage of the Bill. It supports the Bill and will propose amendments in the Committee stage. The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON (Higinbotham Province)-In recent weeks I have attended a few auction sales of properties and I have been struck by the meticulous way the auctioneers have presented all the information relevant to the sales of those properties. They present a number of certificates telling people of the zoning of the land, whether it is residential C or whatever. They endeavour to tell people the precise size of the land and so on. They present the relevant rate notices, whether council or Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works. Any planning that may apply to the land is meticulously set out also, and people are told whether the land is subject to flooding. I was very impressed with the amout of information that is given to the potential vendors before they decide whether to purchase the land. I do not quite understand the nature of the Bill, except that there must be a few rotten apples around among the estate agents who are causing this problem. The Hon. K. I. M. Wright-That is not so. 532 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 County Court (Amendment) Bill

The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON-I have always found real estate agents to be very fine people indeed; I have had no problems with them. Perhaps there are a few around who are not quite as good as they should be. Probably the only thing that is not mentioned in the information provided at auctions is that perhaps the stumps under a house may need renewing. That reverts to the old matter of buyer beware; it is up to any purchaser to go through the house, property or whatever, and make a close examination of it beforehand. I believe that if anyone buys a property at auction, that is it. There should be no cooling-off period and no ability for people to go back and say, "I am sorry, I have paid too much for this property". I am sure that if they paid too little they are not likely to return at all. As has already been said, the Liberal Party will not oppose the Bill but, quite rightly, some amendments will be proposed during the Committee stage. I believe the Bill will be passed, as it should be. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time, and it was ordered that it be committed on the next day of meeting.

COUNTY COURT (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from April 19) on the motion of the Hon. E. H. Walker (Minister for the Arts) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-It is often customary for honourable members to stand up and say, "This is a simple Bill; it has only a few lines", and then to speak at great length on those few lines because there is a major matter of principle involved. This Bill is a little different. In fact, it consists of 30 pages, it is full of very detailed provisions, and it contains many schedules amending many Acts. Therefore it is quite a complicated Bill in that sense, but, in fact, there are no great matters of principle involved in it. Therefore, I will not have to speak at great length on this Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to validate and provide for a new set of County Court Rules relating to civil proceedings. The procedure is almost the reverse of the normal procedure. One would expect to find that an Act is passed by Parliament and a set of rules are then made under that Act. However, in this case, a set of rules has been prepared, and a Bill has then been introduced to give effect to and validate the rules that have already been made, and to ratify and approve them. The reason for that is that substantial changes have been made to the Supreme Court Rules in recent years. They have been completely rewritten to provide for more up-to-date procedures to facilitate parties having access to courts and obtaining justice through those courts. It is now desired to introduce a similar set of rules based on the Supreme Court Rules to apply to civil actions in the County Court. Those rules have been prepared, and I believe copies are available for examination by those who wish to see them. The Bill will give effect to those rules to make sure that the Act is consistent with the rules and that appropriate amendments are made to a range of other Acts that refer to County Court proceedings. In addition, the Bill does several other things. It authorises a guardian or other person acting on behalf of a minor to make an agreement to settle claims for damages for bodily injuries other than injuries arising from motor car accidents. It will not be necessary to issue proceedings in court to achieve this result. Again, this is a procedure County Court (Amendment) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 533 that has been available for some time in regard to motor car injury cases in the Supreme Court, and the Bill will facilitate it for the County Court. That is important because in recent years the County Court has become the major trial court in Victoria. The history of Victorian courts is that they began with the Supreme Court. Over the years a system of a County Court and Magistrates Courts was introduced to deal with matters involving smaller amounts of money to enable the Supreme Court to concentrate on major matters. In recent years, under the policies of this government more and more matters have been brought in the Magistrates Courts and the County Court, which means for Ill.ost citizens that their causes of action are likely to be heard in the County Court or a Magistrates Court rather than in the Supreme Court. It is therefore very necessary to have an effective set of rules for the County Court that will facilitate the hearing of those ac~ions, and the rules that have been prepared will do that. I do not believe it would assist the House for me to go into minute detail, or even any sort of detail, as to the various provisions of the Bill, because they are accepted by the legal profession and will be of benefit to litigants. Probably the most desirable thing is to ensure that the rules are ratified, validated, and approved through the passage of the Bill. However, I cannot resist making one comment about the government's claim that over recent years the changes it has made and the resources it has provided to the County Court have led to that court being able to deal with cases more expeditiously than ever. The reality is that there are substantial delays in the County Court, which are to the disadvantage of litigants. The annual report of the LaW Institute of Victoria for the year ended December 1988 shows that there are delays of up to eighteen months in the civil jury lists, and that 25 per cent of accused persons remanded in custody have to wait for six months before their cases come to court. That is a disgrace. That is one of the worst situations that our courts have faced for many years. I can recall the former Attorney-General in this House, the present Minister for Transport in another place, making Ministerial statements telling us about all the changes that he was making to ensure that cases came on for hearing rapidly and that delays were removed. The reality is that the delays have become greater than ever, and that is a major tragedy for all those people who have to wait until their cases come on for hearing. Often people are disadvantaged because they are out of pocket for damages that they are entitled to, or they are not able to resolve disputes that are capable of resolution once a court can deal with them, or they are faced with criminal charges and have to remain in custody until those charges can be heard. It is a disgrace that the government has allowed the situation to drift on in this way. The government really deserves condemnation for saying, when introducing Bills such as this, that is has done such a great job. The reality is that it has not. However, that does not affect the fact that the Bill is desirable. It will improve the way the County Court is able to operate and, therefore, the Opposition is pleased to support it. I add a rider to that: during the Committee stage I shall move a proposed amendment to provide that regulations made under the Act will be able to be disallowed by either House of Parliament. That provision has often been the subject of debate in this House and I do not need to enlarge on the reasons for it. I do not know why the government opposed a similar amendment to this Bill in another place because it knew that such a proposed amendment would be moved in this place. The government will eventually see the wisdom of it, and it will accept the proposed amendment, as it 534 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 County Court (Amendment) Bill has accepted similar amendments in every other case when they have been moved in this House. Subject to that, the Opposition does not oppose the Bill. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-The National Party does not oppose the Bill. There is no doubt that the amendments to the County Court Rules are desirable. Similar matters have been considered by Parliament in relation to the Supreme Court. The Bill is largely composed of technical and difficult to follow amendments to the existing County Court Rules and the substitution of more modem language for some of the archaic language in the existing rules. To that end it should facilitate the use of the courts by the public and, as such, it needs to be supported. I endorse the criticism by Mr Storey of the government about the delays that still exist in the County Court. When the former Attorney-General, the current Minister for Transport, was a member of this place honourable members heard frequent dissertations about the wonderful progress being made in that regard. Defendants and plaintiffs are still waiting for evidence of that progress because it has not been shown in any shortening of the waiting time, particularly with civil cases. There may have been some speeding up in the hearing of criminal cases in some circumstances, but I am especially concerned that, on the country circuits of the County Court, there is often insufficient time to deal with civil cases. So much time is spent disposing of criminal cases that the available time has expired and the chance is not provided for a civil case to be heard. In that situation some litigants then take the option of transferring to the city lists, but that does not help them much either because there is a huge queue of cases awaiting trial before the County Court in Melbourne. The government should take note of the policy espoused by the Opposition and the National Party during the last State election campaign. There is a pressing need for the appointment of at least four additional County Court judges. Such appointments would obviously go a fair way towards catching up on the backlog. While speaking on the Bill I shall take the opportunity of again making a plea for new court buildings around the State. In recent times some excellent work has been done, particularly at Wangaratta and Sale, with the major maintenance of useful court buildings. They have been brought up to date and the Attorney-General's Department and the government can be proud of the work that has been done. However, that is not the situation in other places. Shepparton is a graphic example of where the courts are labouring under unsuitable and cramped conditions. It is high time that a new building was constructed in Shepparton. I also make a plea for the extension of the County Court circuits. Wodonga should be considered as a possible place for holding County Court hearings. I know it is not far from Wangaratta, which currently enjoys a County Court presence. However, Wodonga is the fastest growing provincial city in Victoria and Albury-Wodonga is the fastest growing inland centre in Australia. The business generated in that area well justifies County Court sittings there. Clearly, that cannot be done until a suitable building is available for that purpose. There has been much messing around by the Attorney-General's Department in the provision of a new Magistrates Court at Wodonga. Consideration has been given to spending some $600 000 to move into the old municipal offices. That is not a satisfactory solution, even for the Magistrates Court. It is certainly not a satisfactory solution for a County Court sitting. A purpose-built building adjacent to the existing police station, where there is vacant land, is clearly the way to go in Wodonga. In terms of efficiency, it is useful to have the court near the police station and not half a township away, as would be the case if the current proposal for Wodonga were to proceed. Constitution (Supreme Court) Bill 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 535

I take the opportunity of making those points because justice not readily accessible can hardly be considered to be justice delivered. There is much to be done in making that justice available more readily than is currently the case. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and committed. Clauses 1 to 12 were agreed to. Clause 13 The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-I move: Clause 13, page 12, lines 39 and 40, omit all words and expressions on these lines and insert- "(6) The'Rules may be disallowed in whole or in part by resolution of either House of Parliament in accordance; with the req uirements of section 6 (2) of the Subordinate Legislation Act 1962. (1) Disallowance under sub-section (6) is deemed to be disallowance by Parliament for the purposes of the Subordinate Legislation Act 1962.". This is the standard amendment proposed by the Opposition in relation to all proposed legislation where there is provision for making rules-so that such rules may be disallowed by either House of Parliament. The arguments have been canvassed many times. The reality is that the government accepts such proposed amendments, or has on every occasion in the past, and for good reason. The proposed amendment makes sense. It is exactly what is done in other Houses of Parliament, including the Commonwealth Parliament. I express the hope that, in the future, the government will incorporate such a provision in Bills when they are introduced so that we do not have to go through this exercise every time. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-I respond to Mr Storey by saying that the government does not accept the proposed amendment. The reason it has been reluctantly accepted in the past is not because the government sees the good sense of it but because the Opposition has the numbers in this place. That is the case tonight. I do not intend to call for a division tonight, but I make the point that the government does not accept and never has accepted such a proposed amendment. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clauses and the schedule. The Bill was reported to the House with an amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

CONSTITUTION (SUPREME COURT) BILL This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts), was read a first time.

BUILDING CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL The debate (adjourned from April 18) on the motion of the Hon. B. T. Pullen (Minister for Housing and Construction) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The Building Control (Amendment) Bill addresses three fundamental issues: the first is the adequacy of fire protection in all types ofbuildings, the second relates to the adequacy offire protection in assembly-type buildings where the fire risk is much more pronounced because of 536 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Building Control (Amendment) Bill the possibility of overcrowding, and the third is the potential for costly delays in building projects that may arise because of the rights of adjoining property owners. I shall deal with each of those issues in turn. In respect to fire protection generally, the measures that the community expects fall broadly into two categories. The first category relates to the design features of buildings and to that extent can be incorporated in the construction phase. The use of fire retardant building materials, the design of buildings, the provision of fire escapes, fire shutters and sprinkler systems and so on can be addressed at the point of construction and building design. Compliance with the Victoria Building Regulations can be assured during that process. The more superficial-type fire control measures make inspection more difficult because they relate more to housekeeping matters, in other words, to ensuring that the sprinkler system is efficient and so on. The Bill introduces the concept of on-the-spot fines in respect of these housekeeping measures. Concern was expressed about the authority of those charged with the responsibility of issuing infringement notices, but the National Party accepts the principle that some sanctions must apply otherwise compliance with the regulations will not occur, given nothing more sinister than human nature and the "We will get around it" syndrome. If an owner-occupier is aggrieved by an on-the-spot infringement notice he can challenge the notice, refuse to pay the fine and defend the issue before the court. The Bill provides maximum fines of ten penalty units to be imposed through infringement notices where the owner-occupier does not comply with significant but easily rectifiable maintenance deficiencies. Offences are to be specified in the regulations and the National Party has no qualms about that. However, the risk of fire associated with non-compliance is amplified for buildings where large crowds may gather, typically such places as entertainment venues, and where overcrowding occurs. Under those circumstances compliance with fire protection provisions becomes much more critical. The Bill provides that where a fire inspector considers a building represents a fire hazard, and he may take into account the dimension of a crowd, he may order the closure of the premises at any given time. If, after 48 hours, the problem has not in his opinion been rectified he may apply directly to the Minister for Housing and Construction to have that building closed until it is deemed safe. The service of infringement notices and temporary closures can be carried out by a police officer, the municipal building surveyor or a designated fire brigade officer. The Victoria Building Regulations require a maximum number of occupants of an auditorium, public hall or similar building to be calculated. However, there are presently no powers within the Act to provide for entrance or to allow a duly qualified authorised officer to enter those premises and determine the extent, if any, of overcrowding. The Bill proposes to augment the powers of those authorised officers by providing that they may call upon the police to assist them in the enforcement of any building closure. The National Party believes that is an important amendment. The community has been fortunate in not having suffered the sort of disaster one could visualise if the building regulations in respect of fire safety were not complied with. I hope we never have such an occurrence. The National Party believes this measure will ensure that such an event does not occur. The third issue relates to the rights of owners of adjoining properties where an owner is undertaking the rebuilding or the major renovation of a particular premises. In those circumstances there may be an attendant risk to a neighbouring property of damage incurred in the process, particularly where building works or renovations involve the disruption of foundations. It is not untoward to require a mechanism Adjournment 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 537 whereby the protection of neighbouring properties is provided for. "Protection works" are defined in the Bill as: (a) Permanent or temporary works of underpinning or shoring up or overhead protection or other works designed to maintain the stability of adjoining property or to protect adjoining property from damage from building works; and (b) all works and the use of equipment necessary for the provision, maintenance and removal of works set out in paragraph (a) ... In the past apparently Part IX of the Act was deficient in many instances. The loophole in Part IX was manipulated by adjoining landowners who caused undue delay in building projects. That added to the cost of those projects and, in some instances, caused the building projects to be abandoned. The Bill streamlines the process in that it allows adjoining landowners only fourteen days within which to respond to a notice of proposed works. In other words, adjoining landowners have fourteen days within which to register their disagreement. If they do not respond, according to the Bill that lack of response is deemed to be acquiescence to the proposal. If the owner does disagree, the matter is referred firstly to a municipal building surveyor. Ifit remains unresolved after that referral it goes to the Director of Building Control, who ultimately appoints an arbitrator. The Bill clarifies the right of entry of a property owner onto an adjoining property for the purpose of carrying out a survey for protective works and, ultimately, of carrying out the protective works. It has been argued that fourteen days is insufficient for an adjoining property owner to respond. The issue addressed is one of import. Delays in building projects can be extremely costly. On balance, we believe the period of fourteen days is practical and logical. For those reasons, the National Party supports the Bill before the House. On the motion of the Hon. Robert Lawson, for the Hon. REG MACEY (Monash Province), the debate was) adjourned. It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

ADJOURNMENT Building trade apprenticeships-Yarra Valley Metropolitan Park system-Daylight­ saving-State training system-Macarthur and Distr~ct Memorial Hospital­ Metropolitan Ambulance Service-Medical assessment of preschool children­ Proposed merger of Deakin University and Warrnambool Institute of Advanced Education-Duck hunting licence test-Children's Services Centre Regulations­ Public housing eligibility The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-I move: That the House do now adjourn. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE (Geelong Province)-1 raise a matter for the attention of the Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education. By way of background I refer the Minister to the lack of apprenticeship places currently belng experienced in the building trade. A constituent of mine decided to take on a young apprentice in early January this year. He approached the Gordon Institute of Technology and was told that the building section was closed until 2 February. He returned on 2 February to have his apprentice enrolled and was told he needed a certificate from the Department of Labour. He obtained that certificate. He was then told that he must apply to the State Training Board to obtain permission for his apprentice to begin the course. It took a month to receive approval from the board. When he went back to the college he was told that he was too late, that all the positions had been filled. 538 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Adjournment

From my inquiries it appears that there was a 30 per cent increase in the number of apprenticeships in the building trade this year. That increase was not expected and additional staffwas needed to allow for the extra apprenticeships. The young lad concerned has started working and is willing to do his apprenticeship but the builder does not believe he should indenture the apprentice until he has some assurance that training facilities will be available to the lad. I understand that up to 30 apprentices are having the same difficulty. I ask the Minister to ascertain whether additional funds can be provided for more staff so that additional apprenticeships can be provided, especially in the carpentry and joinery areas. The Hon. B. A. E. SKEGGS (Templestowe Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Local Government for reference to the Minister for Water Resources. It concerns a property at 24 Templestowe Road, Templestowe, known as Willowbank, which is in an important and sensitive position in relation to the Yarra Valley Metropolitan Park system. There is a strong feeling within the district, especially in Templestowe, that a move should be made by the government to give support and encouragement to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works to bid before or at an auction on 21 May with a view to having Willowbank incorporated in the Yarra Valley Metropolitan Park. This proposal has strong support within the City of Doncaster and Templestowe and I understand that it is on the notice paper for discussion at the council meeting this evening. Because it borders the Yarra River the property to be auctioned on 21 May would lend a great deal to the Yarra Valley Metropolitan Park system. It would be a pity if the property passed into further private ownership if there was a possibility of it being used for public open space. The property has attracted commercial interest and other commercial properties in the vicinity would probably also be interested. It would be a shame if it were bought for commercial purposes because that would not be in the interests ofthe environmental aspirations of the area. I strongly urge the Minister to take up the matter with the Minister for Water Resources to ascertain what support can be lent to the Board of Works to make a bid to incorporate that property in public open space. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province)-I raise a matter with the Minister for the Arts as the representative in this House of the Premier. I refer to the vexed question of daylight-saving. Althou~ I am aware that the President of the Anti­ Daylight Saving League is a member of thIs Chamber, I say at the outset that I am not opposed to daylight-saving per se; it has merits in some circumstances. However, I protest about the situation that will arise next March if the current intention ofthe New South Wales government to change the ending of daylight-saving to a fortnight earlier than that proposed by the Victorian government is implemented. That situation almost arose last March but, fortunately, negotiations were put in train and a debacle was averted. All the indications are that that might not be the case in March 1990 unless some further negotiations are undertaken. The House should briefly contemplate the problems which will be caused in border areas if the finish of daylight-saving is not synchronised between Victoria and New South Wales: in fact, right along the River Murray extraordinary problems will be caused with school buses, with business hours, with airline timetables and with radio and television programs. Almost every avenue of human activity will be disrupted to Adjournment 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 539 some extent and will be horrendously interrupted in large centres such as Albury-Wodonga unless daylight-saving is synchronised between New South Wales and Victoria. I have a copy ofa newsletter released by the Premier of New South Wales dated 14 December 1988 in which he says that he is entering into negotiations and is confident that the governments of Victoria, South Australia and Tasmania will have a uniform finish to daylight-saving in 1990. I hope Mr Greiner's optimism is realised. I make a plea to the Minister for the Arts that he ask the Premier of Victoria to enter into negotiations with colleagues in South Australia and New South Wales to ensure that uniformity is achieved. I am not concerned about the precise date, but my preference would be as early as possible in March, as it used to be. Daylight-saving was extended in Victoria mainly to accommodate the Moomba Festival. I have some difficulties with the logic of extending daylight-saving to accommodate a folk festival. The PRESIDENT-Order! Mr Baxter is debating the issue. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-I shall not debate the issue, but I implore the Minister to ask the Premier to enter into meaningful negotiations. The Hon. HADDON STOREY (East Yarra Province)-The Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education will be aware that a discussion paper has been circulated by the State Training Board in relation to proposed legislation to deal with what is called the State training system. That paper discusses in considerable detail a whole range of issues in relation to education to cover the field of T AFE, apprenticeship training and the other forms of training which are now brought together under the responsibility of the Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education. A range of issues are canvassed in that paper which I would like to take up with the Minister, but I realise I can take up only one issue at a time, and tonight I take up with the Minister the issue of what form any proposed legislation should take because that paper canvasses the possibility of a Bill which amends the Post-Secondary Education Act and substitutes for the present provisions of that Act dealing with T AFE a new Part which deals with the whole area of training. The paper also canvasses as an alternative a separate Bill dealing with training. It may seem to be an inconsequential matter as to whether it should be an amendment of one Act or a completely new Act, but it is seen by many to be a major matter of principle, perhaps because it tends to be symbolic. If the decision is to take the provisions out of the Post-Secondary Education Act and to have a separate Act dealing with training matters, that would be seen to be removing T AFE from the field of post­ secondary education; that is, education beyond school education. The T AFE Colle$e Councils Association of Victoria Inc. held a meeting some weekends ago at whIch most of the T AFE colleges in Victoria were represented, and the delegates at that meeting in Bendigo expressed a strong feeling in favour of the measure taking the form ofan amendment to the Post-Secondary Education Act rather than the creation of a separate Act to deal with training in the State of Victoria. I have heard that members of the State Training Board have said that, in reality, that issue is not negotiable and that there will be a separate Act rather than a Bill which simply amends the Post-Secondary Education Act to incorporate the necessary provisions. The discussion paper has been circulated in an unusual manner in the sense that nobody owns it. The paper expressly says that it is not the policy of the government, the State Training Board or the Office of the State Training Board; it is in the air. It is 540 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Adjournment disconcerting for people in the T AFE system to be told that this issue is in reality not negotiable. Will the Minister give an assurance that the paper means what it says, that all of the issues in that paper are matters which have not been resolved, that views will be received from all parties, that a considerable judgment will be made and that it is entirely open for people to make submissions that ther want a Bill which simply amends the Post-Secondary Education Act and that that IS still a viable option which will be considered by the Minister? The Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Western Province)-The matter I raise for the attention of the Minister for Health concerns the Macarthur and District Memorial Hospital, a hospital of eight beds. The hospital services currently provided include acute services through primary medical care, with the provision of five acute beds; the three remaining beds are used extensively for nursing home-type patient care. The hospital also provides an extensive community health component through the provision of day care group activities, district nursing, meals on wheels and so on. The Macarthur and District Memorial Hospital originally provided a total of eight acute beds for primary medical care. However, in 1979, in consultation with the then Health Commission, the board of the hospital agreed to allocate three of its eight acute beds for long-term nursing home-type patients. Since that time, all attempts to have these three beds officially reclassified as Commonwealth funded nursing home beds have been unsuccessful. The de facto status of these beds causes the hospital continued concern in that the long-term nursing home-type occupants of these beds appear as single admissions for the year and therefore prejudice the cost per patient throughput statistics; in other words, it is working against the hospital in terms of its throughput statistics. Over the past two years the Macarthur and District Memorial Hospital has received instructions from the regional office to review its role within the region to develop more community-based health services, and these requests have been taken up by the hospital board and effected. However, the hospital wishes and intends to expand its health service role in accordance with those instructions and, for this to continue, the hospital seeks approval and official recognition of its current nursing home-type beds. Will the Minister take up the issue in the hope that it can be resolved and the future role of the hospital clarified? The Hon. B. E. DAVIDSON (Chelsea Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Health. It has come to my attention that a number of recent articles by Dina Monks of the Frankston Standard allege inefficiency, poor management practices and the downgrading of communications in local operations 'of the Metropolitan Ambulance Service. These include allegations of a lowering of standards of service and staff morale. The newspaper claims that these allegations are being made by unnamed so-called senior ambulance officers. Notwithstanding that, there is a fine record of service built up over a long period by the officers and men of the Metropolitan Ambulance Service. Can the Minister inform the House as to any action she has taken or proposes to take to set the record straight? The Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (East Yarra Province)-I direct a matter for the consideration of the Minister for Health who will be aware that recently I raised during the debate on the motion for the adjournment of the sitting a number of matters concerning gross mismanagement within the Metropolitan Ambulance Service. I raised a number of allegations about the fact that an ambulance service vehicle was used for the conveying of dog meat and house tiles. As bizarre as those allegations Adjournment 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 541 were, the Minister-and I appreciate her candour and the promptness of her reply­ came back with advice that the allegations were true and that she was pursuing them. I do not wish to pursue that matter. However, I am concerned about another episode of mismanagement in the ambulance service that I ask the Minister to examine. It has been alleged to me that in November or December 1988 an emergency call was received by the Frankston ambulance service to attend to an elderly person who had suffered from an extremely severe asthma attack at the Returned Services League retirement village in Cheltenham. I understand the retirement village is 2 minutes from the Moorabbin ambulance station. It has been further alleged that the crew, which was mobile at the time in an ambulance, was sent from Glenhuntly Road, Caulfield, and actually had to pass by the Moorabbin ambulance station to reach the location where the person was in need of emergency care. Much to the surprise of the ambulance crew that had been despatched, I am told that when they were passing the Moorabbin ambulance station, they saw another ambulance. It was put to me that that ambulance could have been sent to the scene of the crisis. As they went past the Moorabbin ambulance station, the crew called the controller of the Frankston ambulance service to ask why the ambulance at the Moorabbin station had not been used. The response was that the ambulance had not been used even though it was there because the crew was at dinner. This was a rather extraordinary response if it was true, and I ask the Minister to investigate because it is standard ambulance procedure that that excuse cannot be provided and that crews are effectively on a full-time basis while they are at work and that they will not continue a dinner break if an emergency arises. I guess such a procedure does not sound unusual. Therefore, the crew that was despatched to look after the severe asthmatic took 9 or 10 minutes to get to the scene of the crisis. If the other ambulance had been despatched, it is alleged to me that it would have taken about 2 minutes. The crew that did attend the scene of the crisis were distressed by the fact that they went to the scene and had to actually pass an ambulance station on the way. I am told they later lodged a written complaint with the Frankston office of the ambulance service. The tragedy is that the patient died on arrival at the hospital. It has been put to me that, if there had been proper management of the despatch of the ambulance, the tragedy could have been averted. Obviously a member of Parliament is entitled to take any such allegation seriously and raise it with the appropriate Minister at the earliest opportunity. I ask the Minister to inquire, as she did with the previous allegations that turned out to be completely true, and advise the House at the earliest opportunity whether it is true and, if so, what she will do to ensure that it does not happen again. The Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland Province)-I direct the attention of the Minister for Health to the medical assessments of children attending preschools. In my home town ofTraralgon we have a kindergarten called the Blundell Hall Kindergarten where only 17 children out of the 50 who attend have been medically assessed this year. The parents of the children who have missed out on medical screening are concerned that their children will go on to primary schools and may not have a medical for another three or four years and that perhaps any problem of one kind or another they may have will go undiagnosed and consequently cause serious problems to their learning abilities in primary school. What is the Minister prepared to do to rectify the situation to ensure that all children who attend kindergartens have the opportunity of receiving medical screenings this year? 542 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Adjournment

The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Western Province )-1 direct the Minister responsible for Post-Secondary Education to the proposed amalgamation of the Warmambool Institute of Advanced Education and Deakin University. I am supportive of the efforts of the council of the Warmambool institute to bring about that marriage. There has been a lot of discussion, and the Minister will appreciate from his own discussions that there is a large measure of agreement between Warmambool and Deakin. An invitation, of course, has been extended to Ballarat, and it is up to the Ballarat community to work out its position. Given, as I understand it, that the intention is that these arrangements will come into force in 1990, it is obviously essential, now that agreement has basically been reached between Warmambool and Deakin, that any necessary legislative changes come into effect as soon as possible. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether it is intended to amend the Deakin University Act or to have a new Act of Parliament called the University of Western Victoria Act, or something like that, introduced during this sessional period. When is it anticipated that draft legislation will be available to each of the two bodies? The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Eastern Province )-1 refer the Minister representing the Minister for Conservation, Forests and Lands to the test that persons who want to become duck shooters and obtain hunting licences must pass. To make the point, I refer to two letters I have received from constituents. The first letter is from a former science teacher who applied for a duck hunting licence in December and failed the written test on a question he believed was ambiguous. My reading of the test caused me to believe also that the question was ambiguous. On complaining to the Minister and the Firearms Consultative Committee, my constituent was told that the issue was of concern to the committee and that the test would be reviewed. Four months later my constituent presented again and passed the test, although he found that it was exactly the same. The second letter is from Bev Penney of the Wangaratta Clay Target Club Inc. My constituent expresses the concern of the club particularly for elderly people who, because of the manner of presentation of the test, have difficulty in passing. The club argues that it is not a natural test of birds because they are shown for only a short duration on the screen and there are no sound effects. As the secretary puts it in her letter, the problem is that people have to change from long-range glasses to short-range glasses to answer the questions and they are finding the questions have to be answered in pencil. Because of those concerns about the test, I ask the Minister to refer the matter to his colleague who, in turn, can ensure that the tests are respected in the community and have relevance. The tests should ensure that the people receiving licences have the capacity to recognise birds that can legitimately be shot and those that are protected species. The National Party approves the testing of people who wish to hunt ducks, but it has to be a fair test. The Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY (Nunawading Province)-I direct a matter to the attention of the Minister for Health representing the Minister for Community Services. In her former role, the Minister for Health had a great deal of interest in the Children's Services Centre Regulations which are now finally in operation. However, the Australian Early Childhood Association Inc. is a little concerned about one aspect, namely, the approval of the person in charge. According to the regulations, the approval of the person in charge includes the examination of references Adjournment 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 543 from people who know about the nominated person's capacity to manage a children's services centre, and an interview by the local preschool adviser, to assess the suitability of the applicant. Representatives of the Australian Early Childhood Association Inc. are concerned that it amounts to overkill if the regulations require that that person should be qualified. Those representatives point out that in the past qualified staff have not been subjected to that type of scrutiny: the qualifications of a person have been accepted as prima facie evidence of his or her ability to carry out the necessary tasks. Representatives of the association believe that such a measure devalues those qualifications. I ask the Minister for Health to raise the matter with the Minister for Community Services to assess the status of that interpretation. The Hon. R. S. de FEGELY (Ballarat Province)-I direct to the attention of the Minister for Housing and Construction an issue about which I have been concerned for some time-that is, the ability of the Ministry to regularly assess the income of and so the eligibility of Ministry tenants to remain in Ministry housing. I have provided the Ministry with some examples and I am still awaiting replies to them. One example was brought to my attention the other day and, although I cannot blame the Ministry for doing nothing about it at this stage, I hope such examples are not widespread. I ask the Minister to investigate the situation of a Ministry tenant who lives in Elizabeth Street, Richmond, in a Ministry house and who pays $66 a week rent. In November 1988 that tenant allegedly purchased another property in Richmond; and in January, having settled the transaction, the tenant leased that house for $140 a week, which is a handy arrangement! I am not critical of the Ministry in this instance, because I am sure Ministry officers are not aware of it. But the matter needs publicity to deter others from attempting to cheat the system as this tenant allegedly has done. I am happy to supply the Minister with the details necessary to examine the situation. I suggest the government should make it clear to the community that action will be taken against those who are prepared to use subsidised Ministry housing to abuse the system to the extent that this person allegedly has. I hope the Minister will examine the matter and will take action against people who abuse the system in this way. The Hon. E .. H. WALKER (Minister for the Arts)-Mr Mackenzie raised a matter concerning the number of apprenticeships that are available this year. I am pleased to say that earlier this year, when it became apparent that there was a heightened demand, the government increased the number of apprenticeships available by 8000, and a proper proportion was allotted to the Gordon Institute of Technology. When government members throughout the State-and I particularly mention Mr Henshaw-made it apparent that that number was not sufficient, I am proud to say that the number of apprenticeships was increased to 12000-and again, a proper proportion was allotted to the Gordon institute. The government has responded quickly and has markedly increased the number of apprenticeships, as I am sure Mr Mackenzie would admit. The administration of the apprenticeship system is the province of employers, Gordon institute and the State Training Board. Mr Baxter raised a matter concerning daylight-saving, which is a difficult issue when twin cities such as Albury and Wodonga are involved. The Premier has made it clear that the government will keep to the pattern that has been established in the past two years. The Leader of the National Party asked earnestly for further attention to be given to the matter, although he said he did not mind what decision was made so long 544 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Adjournment as there was uniformity. I shall bring the matter to the attention of the Premier to see whether anything further can be done. Mr Storey raised a matter concerning the discussion paper on legislation to deal with the State training system. Essentially he asked for an assurance that the matters to do with both the paper and the proposed legislation are still open. I can assure him of that. The paper is not without parentage; it does not merely float, as he suggests. It is a paper like many papers that are produced by the ~overnment from time to time which open up optIons and issues for debate and whIch allow for a full response to occur-and that is the case with this paper. The paper may result in amendments to the existing Act or the introduction of a separate Bill; either option is possible. Mr Chamberlain directed to my attention a matter concerning the amalgamation of the Warrnambool Institute of Advanced Education and Deakin University. I have had discussions with the director of the Warrnambool institute in the company of the Chancellor and the Vice-Chancellor of Deakin University, and with the Vice­ Chancellor ofDeakin University and the deputy president of the Warrnambool institute on another occasion. The amalgamation is progressing very well. I have had discussions with those parties concerning the possibility of the inclusion of the Ballarat College of Advanced Education and other colleges in a network university, if I may call it that, and such an amalgamation remains a possibility. Those discussions will not be used in any way to hold up the amalgamation of Deakin University and the Warrnambool institute. Mr Chamberlain should understand that I do not want to miss the window of opportunity that is there to be taken advantage offor the benefit of communities in regional Victoria, particularly the western area. I do not want to lose such an opportunity for want of discussions or for want of yet another meeting. I have been working hard with the parties concerned. Even today I met with representatives of Ballarat college to discuss the matter. There is a time limit. The government has been working quickly to ensure that the amalgamation will be completed, at least in a raw form, to begin the 1990 academic year. The details of the amalgamation could take twelve months to two years to finalise. I hope the 1990 date will be achieved. By the end of the week I have to respond to the Federal government working group's paper on capital funding; and that paper requires some comment about amal~mations throughout the State. The amalgamatIon to which Mr Chamberlain refers is Important; and I hope it will include more bodies than simply Deakin University and the Warrnambool institute. But I will not hold up that amalgamation simply to allow other prospects to be examined. Mr Chamberlain asked a similar question to Mr Storey's, concerning the need for either amendments to the existing Act or the introduction of a separate Bill; and again either alternative is possible. The Deakin University Act may well be amended to use the stren~ths of the provisions contained in it; but clearly there would have to be some constitutIonal alteration to the governing body, and that has been discussed at some length. Whatever alternative is decided on, it could not be introduced in this sessional period. Certainly it would be included in the list of Bills to be debated in the spring sessional period so that the subsequent Act could be proclaimed in time for the 1990 starting date to be met. The Hon. C. J. HOGG (Minister for Health)-In response to the matter raised by Mr Hallam concerning the Macarthur and District Memorial Hospital, I shall take action to see whether the three beds to which he referred can be reclassified in line with the role suggested by both the regional office and the departmental report. Some of the reply to Mr Davidson is germane to Mr Birrell's question. Mr Davidson alluded to a number of recent articles alleging inefficiency with the management Adjournment 2 May 1989 COUNCIL 545 practice in some of the local operations of the Metropolitan Ambulance Service in Frankston and the peninsula area. I am obviously perturbed that those allegations have been made and reached the local press. The implied suggestion in the local press was that the Frankston based ambulance operation would not have been the subject of complaint had there been an amalgamation of the former peninsula ambulance service with Ambulance Service Melbourne in July 1987. I am reminded that the recommendation that such an amalgamation occurred was made in the all-party Public Bodies Review Committee report in 1984 and legislation was passed by Parliament in 1986. The newly created Metropolitan Ambulance Service was required to manage a complicated corporate merger and it achieved that in circumstances made difficult by some inherent differences in organisations, operational structures, procedures, conditions and services. The Ambulance Employees Association has also been very concerned with the nature of the allegations and has requested that Health Department Victoria undertake an independent review of aspects of the ambulance service. Acting in response to that request, the department, throu~ the acting chief general manager, Mr Jim Daley, has appointed Dr Ian Brand, who IS well known to many members of this House-he is Executive Director of the Preston and Northcote Community Hospital-to undertake a review within the southern district of the Metropolitan Ambulance Service. He will examine the broad areas of inefficiency, poor management practices and lowering of standards of service and staff morale and will specifically examine areas such as the improper use of ambulance vehicles and equipment, and the standard of patient care and training. That is substantially a response to Mr Davidson's matter. Further, in answer to Mr Birrell, I shall pass on to Dr Brand the details that Mr Birrell furnished to me tonight. I ask that any other honourable member who has a complaint or details of allegations that have been made about the standard of service should furnish them to Dr Brand's review or to me and I shall undertake to pass them on because I believe through this mechanism both allegations can be examined, tested and reported on. I think that is a response to Mr Birrell. In terms of the time line, the Brand review began this morning. It will certainly conclude by the end of May-hopefully earlier. If it appears that the review will continue until the end of May, I believe an interim report will be furnished. I shall be happy to report to the House the nature of the interim report if that is appropriate. On the specific allegation that Mr Birrell has raised, I shall pass that on to Dr Brand and I am certain that will be investigated as a matter of priority, but I do not want to interrupt or spoil the way he is conducting that review. In reply to Mr Hall, as I understand it the parents of the preschool children were asked for a medical assessment in the interests of the children. Over the past eighteen months the School Medical Service has run a routine medical check of all children either at prep grade point of entry, or grade 1. That is regarded as a better and more universal system because, as Mr Hall would know, we have very good coverage of kindergarten education in the State but still a little less than 90 per cent of children attend preschool. That is because of culture, language, isolation and a variety of reasons. School checkups are more universal. Therefore, the ability of the medical service to pick up disability and to conduct that check up is more appropriate. While answering Mr Hall, perhaps I should mention the work that has been done now for three years by the Minister for Local Government who has been heading a committee on child and specialist family services which has been trying to put together the work that has been done by the Health Department Victoria, Community Services Session 1989-18 546 COUNCIL 2 May 1989 Adjournment

Victoria and the Ministry of Education. I suspect the honourable member knows somethin~ about this. It sounds an easy task but it is in fact extremely difficult, although In many areas those three departments cooperate and work extremely well together. The Minister for Local Government continues to chair that committee and last Friday there was a gathering of managers and participants. I believe a lot of progress in the coordination of those services has been achieved. One of the recommendations of the committee has been to move medical checkups into the more universal area of schools. In answer to Mrs Varty on children's services regulations, which I think would be one of the child-care regulations, I shall certainly pass on her comments to the Minister for Community Services in another place. However, the difficulty in drawin~ up those regulations has obviously been-I crave the indulgence of the House in sayIng this­ to find the right balance between qualification and experience, and checking every detail of somebody's background when that person is in charge of children, and it is a qualification question. I think that the balance is structured into the child-care regulations but I know the source of her comments and I shall certainly pass on what she said to the Minister for Community Services. I conclude by saying that those children's services regulations were a long time in the birth and delivery and certainly I hold out hope for their successful operation. The Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Minister for Housing and Construction)-Mr Evans raised a question in relation to the test being conducted for shooters to obtain licences to hunt ducks. As he will appreciate, part and parcel of that test is bird recognition, which is certainly overdue given the number of protected species that were shot at the beginning of the season. I understand Mr Evans's concern about the possibility of ambiguities in testing in one case. In the second case, he feels some people, particularly elderly people, may fail the test because of problems in actually carrying it out. I understand that the test will be further developed over time, but I suppose my reaction is that if a person has difficulty in carrying out a test and in handling the equipment, there may well be some doubt whether that person can handle a shotgun anyway. The test is related to handling a weapon which has some capacity and if the test simulates the conditions as well as it may there may well be failures, as we have to expect with other tests of competence in usin$ motor cars or other instruments which have some potential for damage. I shall dIrect the general question that Mr Evans raised to the attention of the Minister. Mr de Fegely raised the matter of the assessment of people in Ministry of Housing and Construction accommodation. There are complications involved in the assessment because incomes change from time to time, but in the case that he mentioned there appears to be a query in the allegation that a person may be taking advantage of one situation to gain profit in another. Mr de Fegely has provided me with some details and I shall have the matter investigated. The Hon. M. A. LYSTER (Minister for Local Government)-Mr Skeggs raised a matter that he would like me to bring to the attention of the Minister for Water Resources in another place. It is the second time that he has referred to the Yarra Valley Metropolitan Park which leads me to think that I should make a visit to the park because it is a valued area in the community life in his area. I am familiar with Jells Park and the new park at Braeside which is within my own province. I am sure if Mr Skeggs has not visited Braeside he should do so and he would find that it has the potential for a park that would also add greatly to the life of the community.