Wednesday Volume 594 25 March 2015 No. 132

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 25 March 2015

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2015 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1413 25 MARCH 2015 1414

Mr Wilson: In 2010, the Government set an aspiration House of Commons that by 2015 25% of Government procurement spend by value should go to SMEs directly and into the supply chain. In fact, we have exceeded our target, and a record Wednesday 25 March 2015 26.1% is now being spent with SMEs. That is a record to be proud of, and a tribute to my right hon. Friend the The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Minister for the and Paymaster General. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): PRAYERS May I congratulate my hon. Friend on all the measures that he and his colleagues have taken on this subject? I know that four businesses in my constituency are currently [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] benefiting from their measures.

Mr Wilson: I know my hon. Friend is a great champion of small businesses in his constituency. One of the Oral Answers to Questions wider benefits of this programme of commercial reform is that it enabled the Government to make the huge saving of £15 billion in the years 2010 to 2014. As I say, that is a lasting tribute to my right hon. Friend. CABINET OFFICE Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The Minister The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— might confess that it would help if he bought enough desks for civil servants. In answer to 11 parliamentary Public Procurement: Small Businesses questions, Whitehall Departments have told me that they have more civil servants than desks. In the Department 1. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): What for Transport, there are 6,600 officials and 1,500 desks. steps he is taking to support small businesses through This sounds more like musical chairs than hot desking. public procurement. [908307] Is it the cause of all the chaos and confusion in this Government? 7. Mr William Bain ( North East) (Lab): What steps he is taking to improve access to Government Mr Wilson: I am not quite sure whether that is a procurement by small and medium-sized enterprises. serious question, because all modern companies and [908313] the modern civil service should be hot desking, which is exactly what is taking place. The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Rob Wilson): Over the past five years, we have implemented a wide range of Building Workers: Shrewsbury measures to open up the way we do business to make sure that small companies are in the best possible position 2. Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): If he will to compete for contracts. These measures include increasing expedite the review of papers held on people convicted transparency, making opportunities more accessible, in 1973 in relation to alleged incidents during the national removing unnecessary bureaucracy, improving payment building workers’ strike at building sites in the Shrewsbury terms and clamping down on poor practice. area so that the review is completed as soon as possible. [908308] Greg Mulholland: I thank the Minister for that answer. He will be aware of the report of the Public Administration The Minister for Government Policy and Chancellor of Committee that showed that at the time not enough was the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr Oliver Letwin): Yes. being done. Does he accept that there still needs to be a real culture change in the civil service to open up Mr Anderson: I am very grateful for that answer, and Government procurement to small and medium-sized I wish I believed it. Sadly, it was confirmed in a debate enterprises? yesterday afternoon that despite this House overwhelmingly agreeing on 23 January last year that the papers would Mr Wilson: We have obviously made a lot of be released—and that Ministers would assist in getting and there is more to do, but we intend to extend and the papers released—they have not been. The campaign embed the reforms that we have made over the past five has consistently met blockages. I am calling on the years. I would just remind my hon. Friend that at the Minister to bring forward the release of these papers as last general election, only 6.5% of direct central Government quickly as possible and to stop the 43-year cover-up, procurement spend was with smaller businesses, and we which will see innocent men going to their graves as had no idea how much was spent in the supply chain, so convicted criminals to protect the Tory Ministers of we have made huge progress. 40 years ago. It is a disgrace.

Mr Bain: The Minister omitted to say in his answer Mr Letwin: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is that nine out of 17 Departments spent less with SMEs unaware of the actual situation. The review of which he in 2013-14 than they did in 2012-13. With just 10% of speaks is under way at present, but the papers—and the Government contracts going to small businesses, why particular parts of those papers that were kept back on have this Government been so poor when it comes to security grounds—have all been given to the Criminal procurement from our SME sector? Cases Review Commission, which has looked at them 1415 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1416 and is using them in the course of its review. There is no right hon. Friend, on the occasion of his final Cabinet question of any injustice of the kind he describes occurring Office questions, accept my congratulations on the fantastic as a result of the lack of those papers being present. I, revolution in public services that he has led over the however, assure the hon. Gentleman that if I find past five years? myself in my current post after the election, I shall seek to expedite the review. Mr Maude: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those kind words. There has been a great success with the Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The hon. Member Government Digital Service, which the Washington Post for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) asked a serious question. has hailed, stating that the UK has set This was an establishment stitch-up 42 years ago, and for 42 years it has been an establishment cover-up. Does “the gold standard of digital government”. the Minister not realise that there cannot possibly be The Obama Administration and the Australian Government any state security reasons why the records of an industrial have created their own analogous organisations, explicitly dispute should not be made public? modelled on what we have done. Mr Letwin: My hon. Friend is also suffering from a misconception. The bulk of the papers involved were Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I do not know released. The bits that were not released relate to security what the Minister is eating for breakfast this week, but and make specific references to the security services and you do not seem to be able to keep him down, Mr Speaker their activities. Those are being reviewed, and a decision —I half expect him to announce a U-turn on his will be made. He is absolutely right that the crucial intended retirement before the week is out. point is that the people involved deserve justice, so the Is not the secret success of the Government Digital CCRC needs to see the unexpurgated version, and it Service the confidence that it has given Departments to has. It has been given full sight of all the papers. develop solutions in-house with an agility that was simply impossible in the days of lengthy contractual (Wigan) (Lab): It is increasingly clear negotiations with large IT companies? that there is simply no justification for the delay in the review or for the refusal to release the full papers about Mr Maude: My hon. Friend is completely right. the case. The Minister may refuse to act, but a Labour From a time when British government was synonymous Government will act. We will release those papers with with failed IT projects, we have moved to being the the urgency that the situation demands. Justice delayed world leader in digital government. There is still a huge is justice denied. Why is he so determined to ignore the amount more to do, but I am grateful to him for his will of Parliament, ignore the public and ignore the support for our work. urgency of the situation, and why will he not release the papers now? Trade Unions Mr Letwin: I am sorry that the shadow Minister wrote that question before she heard my previous answers. 4. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) If, as I hope she will not, she finds herself a Minister (Con): What savings have accrued to the public purse ON. after the election and has to make this decision—[H from the Government’s reforms to trade union facility MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] If she finds herself in that time. [908310] position, I hope that she will discover the truth, which I have already told the House—that the CCRC has already seen the papers, so there is no question of justice being The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster either delayed or denied. General (Mr Francis Maude): At the time of the last general election, there was no proper monitoring of Government Digital Service trade union facility time in government. We now have controls in place that have saved the taxpayer some 3. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What £26 million in the past year, and we have reduced the assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the work number of taxpayer-funded full-time union officials of the Government Digital Service in implementing the from 200 in May 2010 to just eight today. digital-by-default programme. [908309] The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Stephen Metcalfe: While I generally support the principle [Interruption.] General (Mr Francis Maude): The Government Digital of the union movement— Why is that Service has created the award-winning, world-leading surprising? I generally support the principle, but it is gov.uk, the single web domain for Government information not for the taxpayer to fund. What was the cost of and services, and 25 major services have been redesigned giving trade union representatives in the civil service to make them simpler, clearer and faster to use. That taxpayer-funded time off when this Government came will not only provide savings to the taxpayer but improve to power? delivery for the public, so that it is focused on user need, not Government convenience. In the next Parliament, Mr Maude: Part of the problem was that it was not we will deliver government as a platform, building monitored, but the information we put together showed common services such as a once-for-all payments platform. that the cost was £36 million, which we have cut to less than £10 million. There is a perfectly proper role for Stephen Mosley: The Government Digital Service has union officials to be embedded in the workplace, as they been one of the current Government’s unsung success can resolve disputes and grievances quickly, but the stories, improving the efficiency and effectiveness of situation was completely out of control and we have public services and saving the taxpayer money. Will my brought it under control. 1417 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1418

Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Civil Service: Job Reductions (Lab): Will the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity to thank those civil servants—mainly trade unionists—who have had to implement Government policies, particularly 6. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): in the Department for Work and Pensions, such as What assessment he has made of the effect on local referring people to food banks? Perhaps against their economies of the reduction of jobs in the civil service. own judgment, they have had to implement austerity, [908312] which has done great damage to the people of this country. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Mr Maude: I point out to the right hon. Gentleman, General (Mr Francis Maude): Although the civil service for whom I have great respect, that the need for austerity is now at its smallest size since the second world war, was caused by the huge budget deficit that we inherited officials have helped to deliver efficiency and reform from the Government of which he was a part. We would savings of £11 billion in this financial year to January rather have not had to do that, but I give credit to civil against a 2009-10 baseline. I pay tribute to the hard servants across the country who have done a huge work and dedication of hundreds of thousands of civil amount. The civil service is smaller than at any time servants up and down the country. since the second world war, but it is doing more than it was before and productivity has improved dramatically. Mr Donohoe: Can the right hon. Gentleman explain (Leicester South) (Lab): The why he shut an office in my constituency that I fought Paymaster General has spent the last five years attacking long and hard to maintain, given that people have more civil servants’ facility time and check-off. We now learn, than met the targets they have been given on every a week before Dissolution, that he is inserting a gagging occasion in every year? Will he personally—he has not clause into the civil service code. Why is it so necessary got long to go—have a wee look at that and perhaps and urgent to change the civil service code now? write to tell me why he shut that office?

Mr Maude: The change to which the hon. Gentleman refers simply makes clear what was already the case. Mr Maude: I am not sure which department the There will be considerable concern about whistleblowing, office is in, but every department must look to its and we will do whatever is needed to ensure that we efficiency and many are transforming what they do and continue to be much more open about things that have delivering more and better for less. We have shown that gone wrong. Things are much less suppressed than they that can be done, but there is much more still to do. were when the Labour party was in power.

Digital Inclusion Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): With the news this morning that HSBC is choosing Birmingham over Singapore or Hong Kong, and that Jaguar 5. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What is opening a new plant in the Birmingham area, will my progress he has made on promoting digital inclusion. right hon. Friend pay tribute to the civil servants who [908311] enabled that to happen in a new, clean, civil service that is lean and effective? The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Rob Wilson): This is a devolved matter but in and Wales more than 70 public, private and voluntary sector organisations Mr Maude: I pay warm tribute to what my hon. now support activity under the digital inclusion charter, Friend has done to support the bringing of employment working together to help individuals, small businesses to the west midlands. He is a hugely energetic local and charities to realise the benefits of being online. Member of Parliament. Yes, the civil service does these Later today the Government will launch the Digital things extremely well. It is a smaller civil service, but it is Friends initiative that will call on civil servants to go out more effective than it was. I think its leadership would into their communities and teach digital skills to friends, agree that there is still much more to do. family, neighbours, or colleagues who are offline.

Ann McKechin: The Minister will be aware that, Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): My hon. Friend unfortunately, Glasgow has one of the highest levels of the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) raised population who are offline. The Government have recently the issue of the Government closing down the HMRC run a series of adverts on Glasgow radio stations about office in his constituency. Why is the Minister closing encouraging people to switch their electricity and gas down the HMRC office in my constituency, the Army suppliers, but they are asking people only to use the recruitment centre in my constituency and the Crown online route. What assessment has he made about how courts in my constituency? we can encourage digital inclusion and the appropriate way to target Government adverts? Mr Maude: As I said to the hon. Member for Central Mr Wilson: As I said, this is a devolved matter. The Ayrshire, every Department in Government has to look Scottish Government published their digital participation to its efficiency, make sure it can live within its means strategy in April 2014, led by the Cabinet Secretary for and do the job on behalf of the public. The civil service Culture, Europe and External Affairs, Fiona Hyslop does not exist to provide employment; it exists to serve MSP, and supported by a ministerial advisory group. the public. We found that that can be done more efficiently 1419 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1420 and effectively, doing more and better for less. At the what we do. He has done that consistently and persistently. same time as employment in the public sector has It has not always been comfortable, but that is what the fallen, it has risen in the private sector by 2.3 million. House of Commons is for.

Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Topical Questions Does the Minister agree that in the parts of the United Kingdom where there has been an over-dependence on the public sector and large numbers of jobs in the civil T1. [908322] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): If he will service, such as in Northern Ireland where the Executive make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. are trying to reduce the dependence on the public sector, central Government should support inward The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster investment through the private sector? General (Mr Francis Maude): My responsibilities are for efficiency and reform, civil service issues, public Mr Maude: I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. sector industrial relations strategy, government transparency, He is quite right to identify both the problem and the civil contingencies, civil society and cyber-security. solution. The Northern Ireland economy will undoubtedly benefit from more private sector investment, from overseas Henry Smith: I would like sincerely to thank my right or from within, with a smaller public sector. hon. Friend and neighbouring Member of Parliament for all his assistance and advice over many years., Can Senior Civil Servants: Accountability he estimate the amount of taxpayers’ money that has been saved through efficiencies in his five years in the 8. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): What steps he has Cabinet Office? taken to increase the accountability to Parliament and the public of senior civil servants. [908314] Mr Maude: In the course of this Parliament we have saved more than £50 billion through efficiency and The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster reform savings. I am extremely grateful to my hon. General (Mr Francis Maude): The Prime Minister can Friend for the support he has given throughout the now exercise choice in making permanent secretary process. He is a completely brilliant local MP, and I am appointments. We have introduced fixed tenure for confident he will be back here after the election. permanent secretaries. We publish their performance objectives, as well as improved management information, Lucy Powell ( Central) (Lab/Co-op): With to allow them to be held to account. We have revised the your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to pay tribute Osmotherly rules to ensure that senior responsible owners to the right hon. Gentleman, given that this is likely to are directly accountable to Parliament for project be his last appearance in this place. He has a long record implementation and to allow former accounting officers of public service, which he has always pursued with to be called to Select Committees. principle, dignity and drive. Even when it has not served his own career, he has never been afraid to speak out, Neil Carmichael: Will the Paymaster General update and I have always respected him for having a clear the House on the role that Ministers might have in the agenda. He is a moderniser and impatient for reform, performance review of permanent secretaries? and despite our disagreements, I am sure that Members on both sides of the House will want to pay tribute to Mr Maude: We have now instituted a formal process his distinguished career. where formal input must be provided by Ministers to the Cabinet Secretary and head of the civil service on Looking to his future, I wonder whether he wants to the performance of their permanent secretaries. That follow in the footsteps of his friend Michael Portillo. If input has to be taken into account as part of the end of so, I am happy to arrange some practice sessions for year appraisal undertaken by the head of the civil him cosying up on the sofa with my hon. Friend the service. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott). I wish him well with his future plans, Mr Speaker: There are so many noisy private albeit with me taking his place in the Cabinet Office, conversations taking place it is quite difficult to hear the and I wondered whether he wanted to take this opportunity Minister’s answer. Let us have a bit of order for the to tell us some of his fondest memories of this place. Chair of the Public Administration Select Committee of the House of Commons. Mr Maude: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for her kind and warm words; they are hugely appreciated. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): We have pursued a difficult and often controversial At what may well be my right hon. Friend’s last appearance agenda of reform, but one of things that has given it in the House of Commons at the Dispatch Box, may I strength has been the robust support from her and her remark that his five-year term as Minister for the Cabinet predecessors. Whatever the result of the election—I Office in charge of civil service policy for the Government hope it will not be the one she foresees—this programme will have truly left its mark not just on the civil service of reform must continue and be followed through. but on this House? His tenacity, commitment and sincerity are of great credit to him. T2. [908323] Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): In joining the tributes to my right hon. Friend Mr Maude: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for his sterling public service, may I ask what else he for his kind remarks. I pay tribute to him for the way in could have achieved in the past five years had he been a which he and his Committee have held us to account for member of a real Conservative Government? 1421 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1422

Mr Maude: That is a tempting question, but actually PRIME MINISTER we have achieved a huge amount. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who has worked closely with me and my officials on The Prime Minister was asked— driving through this programme. It is hard to see how we could have done much more in that context. Engagements

T4. [908325] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ Q1. [908292] Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Co-op): Does the Minister agree that one of the great If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday failures of this Government has been their inability 25 March. to check the quality of private companies engaged to deliver our people’s public services? Has that not been one of the fatal policy weaknesses of this Government? The Prime Minister (Mr ): I know the whole House will wish to join me in offering our deepest Mr Maude: We have improved the quality of the condolences to the families and friends of all those commercial directors and teams across Government so killed in yesterday’s Airbus crash in France. It is that we can monitor much better what is done than was heartbreaking to hear about the schoolchildren, the the case under the hon. Gentleman’s Government, and I babies and the families whose lives have been brought to announced yesterday some principles for transparency an end. As the Foreign Secretary has said, it is very that will take this process yet further. It is much better likely that some British nationals were involved. At this than it was, but there is still a lot to do. stage, three British nationals have been identified as having been on the flight. The Foreign Office is working urgently to establish whether any further British nationals [908324] Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) T3. were among those on board. We are providing consular (Con): My right hon. Friend has been an outstanding assistance and will give further information as it becomes Minister on cyber-security. He recently visited Pakistan available. Our ambassador to France is at the crash site and met the chief of general staff in the Pakistan army. today. I spoke to Chancellor Merkel and Prime Minister Did they discuss greater co-operation between our two Rajoy last night and made it clear that the UK is ready countries on cyber-security and sharing the good to offer any assistance we can. I expect to speak to practice he has developed in this area? President Hollande later today. Mr Maude: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues comments. Yes, we had a fruitful visit to Pakistan and and others, and in addition to my duties in this House, I are collaborating and co-operating with the Government shall have further such meetings later today. of Pakistan in several important areas. Ann McKechin: May I join the Prime Minister in T5. [908326] Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) expressing sympathies to all the families affected by (Lab): What assistance is the Minister for Civil Society yesterday’s tragedy? giving to the National Citizen Service to maximise the In 2014, the number of people working on zero-hours number of students from disadvantaged backgrounds contracts increased by 19%, unsecured borrowing rose who participate in it so that they can play their full part by 9%, and the percentage living in relative poverty was in a programme that would benefit them more than at the highest level since 2001. Does the Prime Minister those from more affluent areas? agree that on his watch the future of our young people is only getting darker? The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Rob Wilson): The hon. Gentleman’s interest in the NCS is welcome and I The Prime Minister: What has happened on my watch know is reflected in his constituency, where demand for is that 174,000 more people are employed in Scotland. the programme is high among pupils at Bulwell Zero-hours contracts account for one in 50 jobs, and it and Bluecoat Beechdale academy. I am delighted that is this Government who have outlawed exclusivity in the latest independent evaluation found that in 2013 zero-hours contracts—after the 13 years of inaction 16% of NCS participants were in receipt of free school from the Labour party.In the hon. Lady’s own constituency, meals, compared with about 7% of 16 and 17-year-olds the claimant count has fallen by 32% since the election. in the general population. That is evidence that our economic plan is working in Scotland, as it is throughout the rest of the United T6. [908327] Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): The Kingdom. Cabinet Office has been relentless in reducing waste from public services. However, does my right hon. Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): One of Friend share my concern that the hidden cost to the the most disturbing scandals has been the infection of taxpayer, as well as the lack of local accountability, thousands of people across the nation with HIV and from doing away with the shire fire and rescue services hepatitis C through contaminated blood. Today Lord and trying to create a national fire service as Labour Penrose publishes a report that follows nearly 25 years proposes would be considerable? of campaigning by Members on both sides of this House to address the scandal. Will the Prime Minister, Mr Maude: I share my hon. Friend’s view that the as the last act of his Government, ensure that there is a local accountability that comes with local fire services is full apology, transparent publication and, above all, extremely important. I would be very loth to see that proper compensation for the families terribly affected change. by this scandal? 1423 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1424

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Edward Miliband: Can the Prime Minister confirm right to raise this, with the Penrose report being published that the spending cuts that he plans in the next three today. I can do all of the three things he asks for. I know years will be even greater than anything seen in the last that many Members on all sides of this House have five? raised the question of infected blood, and I have spoken about how constituents have been to my surgeries. The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is While it will be for the next Government to take account wrong about that, but look: straight answer from me, of these findings, it is right that we use this moment to straight question to him. I have ruled out VAT. Will he recognise the pain and the suffering experienced by rule out national insurance contributions? Yes or no? people as a result of this tragedy. It is difficult to imagine the feelings of unfairness that people must feel Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister will have plenty at being infected with something like hepatitis C or HIV of time to ask questions after 7 May—and I am afraid as a result of a totally unrelated treatment within the to say that his own Office for Budget Responsibility has NHS. To each and every one of those people, I would referred to like to say sorry on behalf of the Government for “a much sharper squeeze on real spending…than anything seen something that should not have happened. over the past five years”. No amount of money can ever fully make up for Next question, and this should be an easier one. Five what did happen, but it is vital that we move as soon as years ago, the Prime Minister promised to cut net possible to improve the way that payments are made to migration to tens of thousands. Straight answer to a those infected by this blood. I can confirm today that straight question: is that a broken promise? Yes or no? the Government will provide up to £25 million in 2015-16 to support any transitional arrangements to a better The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman payments system. I commit that, if I am Prime Minister a second chance. I answered a very simple question in May, we will respond to the findings of this report as about VAT. I ruled out an increase. Let me ask the right a matter of priority. hon. Gentleman again: will he rule out an increase in Finally, I know that Lord Penrose was unable to national insurance contributions? present the findings of his report today because of We all know that this is Labour’s jobs tax. This is illness. I am sure the whole House would want to send Labour’s tax of choice. This is what Labour clobbers him our very best wishes. working people, families and enterprises with. So let me ask the right hon. Gentleman again—straight question, Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Let me straight answer—will he rule it out? first say that I fully associate myself with the remarks that the Prime Minister has just made about the victims Edward Miliband: There is only one person who is of infected blood. We undertake today to act on those going to raise taxes on ordinary families, and that is the recommendations as well. I also join the Prime Minister Prime Minister—and he is going to cut the national in offering my condolences to the families who lost health service. Moreover, he did not answer the question. loved ones in the devastating plane crash yesterday, Let me now ask him a question about the NHS. Five especially remembering the three British victims. Our years ago, he promised no top-down reorganisation of thoughts are with all the victims, their families and their the NHS. Now, this is an easy one: can he confirm that friends. that is a broken promise? Yes or no? On Monday, the Prime Minister announced his retirement plans. He said that it was because he believed The Prime Minister: I will tell the right hon. Gentleman in giving straight answers to straight questions. After what is happening in the NHS. There are 9,000 more five years of Prime Minister’s questions, that was music doctors, 7,000 more nurses, and 20,000 more bureaucrats. to my ears. So here is a straight question: will he now But we have heard it now: a clear promise on VAT from rule out a rise in VAT? this side of the House, and no answer on national insurance from that side of the House. And it goes to a bigger point. The right hon. Gentleman has had five The Prime Minister: In 43 days’ time, I plan to years to come up with an economic plan, he has had arrange the right hon. Gentleman’s retirement. But he is five years to work out some policies for the future of right: straight questions deserve straight answers, and this country, he has had five years to demonstrate some the answer is yes. leadership, and he has failed on every count.

Edward Miliband: No one is going to believe it. No Edward Miliband: Nobody believes the right hon. one is going to believe it because of the Prime Minister’s Gentleman’s promises on VAT and nobody believes his extreme spending plans, because his numbers do not promises on the national health service because he has add up, and because he promised it last time and he broken his promises in this Parliament. Now, let us try broke his promise. Now, if the Prime Minister is in the him on one more: three years ago he cut the top rate of mood for straight answers, let us try him with another income tax. Can he rule out, under a Tory Government, one. Can he confirm that a spending cut—[Interruption.] a further cut in the top rate of income tax?

Mr Speaker: Order. The Leader of the Opposition The Prime Minister: The richest in this country are will be heard. If we overrun, so be it; it does not matter paying more tax under this Government than they paid to me. The right hon. Gentleman will be heard, and the under the last Government. We have set out our plans Prime Minister will be heard, and every other Member for tax cuts: if you are young and you work hard, you will be heard. will get an apprenticeship; if you are a family, we will 1425 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1426 take you out of tax until you earn £12,500. I do not to him that the legislation governing the distribution of want to see middle-income families drawn into the top asylum seekers was put in place under the last Labour rate of tax. We have made our promises. Now, let the Government. right hon. Gentleman make a promise: will he increase I have been following what the hon. Gentleman has national insurance? Yes or no? been saying. He has sent some very good dispatches from the front in terms of knocking on doors in Rochdale, Edward Miliband: Nobody believes the right hon. and this is what he says: Gentleman’s promises. He has had five years of failing “Any Labour politician that says to you they knock on a door working families, with worse to come—more spending and is popular are telling lies.” cuts, more tax cuts for the richest, more betrayal. This He says that about his own side. He says: has been a Government of the few for the few. It is time “You know, this north elite view of the world just for a better plan. It is time for a Labour Government. doesn’t play in Rochdale, Rotherham, Runcorn or anywhere else beginning with an ‘R’ outside the M25.” The Prime Minister: Well, we have seen it all: absolutely I would like to encourage him to do more interviews, no ability to answer a question. This is a country where because he could add Reading, Redditch, Redruth, unemployment is falling; the economy is growing; the Reigate, Rochford, Romford, Romsey, Rossendale, deficit is coming down; in our NHS, the operations are Rushcliffe, Rutland, Rye—and probably Rosyth too the going up; there are more good school places for our way they are going. children; living standards are rising; inflation is at zero; and there are record numbers in work—all of this could An hon. Member: SNP gain! be put at risk by Labour. That is the choice in 43 days’ time: competence and a long-term plan that is delivering, Q5. [908296] Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): instead of the chaos of economic crisis from Labour. I don’t think so love. In May 2010, unemployment in South Derbyshire, an Q3. [908294] Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): Thirteen months ago, my constituent Leigh Smith ex-mining area, stood at 1,540. Today it is almost a tragically lost her three-month-old baby Beatrice due third of that, at 580. Does my right hon. Friend agree to a rare heart condition. In an effort to help other that the strong Conservative Government and a families avoid the grief and despair of losing a child, Conservative district council with a long-term economic Mrs Smith wants all schools to install defibrillators and plan are able to succeed in bringing jobs and growth to teach life-saving skills. Will the Prime Minister offer where the Labour equivalent failed to do so? his support to this vital cause? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; in South Derbyshire, since the election, the claimant The Prime Minister: First, let me say to my hon. count—the number of people claiming unemployment Friend and his constituent that there is nothing more benefit—is down by 68%. Those are the statistics, but heartbreaking than losing a child and we should do every one of those people is someone with a job, with a everything we can to help with this. The Chancellor livelihood and with a chance to provide for their family. announced in his Budget £1 million for defibrillators, That is what this election is going to be about: for young including putting defibrillators into schools. I want to people who want jobs, we are offering apprenticeships; see a situation where community buildings, schools, for young families who want homes, we have got homes pubs, village halls—all of them—have defibrillators, with Help to Buy; and for pensioners who want security, because we can save lives in this way, and particularly we have got the pension and the pension benefits guarantee. when we are saving such young lives, as in my hon. That is what is on the ballot paper and that is what I Friend’s constituent’s case, we must do better. think people will choose at the next election.

Q4. [908295] Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): May I Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Following start by expressing my condolences to the families of the publication of the Select Committee on Northern those who lost their lives in the tragic Germanwings air Ireland Affairs report on the disgraceful on-the-runs crash? debacle yesterday, it has now been revealed that the There are not any in the Prime Minister’s constituency, man who went about distributing these letters to IRA there is just one in the Home Secretary’s seat, and yet fugitives, Gerry Kelly of Sinn Fein, has actually received there are 680 people seeking asylum in Rochdale, more the royal prerogative of mercy for certain crimes. Will than in the entire south-east of England. We are all the Prime Minister now list in the Library of the House proud of the assistance that this country offers to those all those other Sinn Fein members and leading republicans in need, but public services in Rochdale are already who have likewise received a royal pardon, so that stretched and this uneven dispersal of asylum seekers is republicans in Northern Ireland can know which of not helping the situation. Does the Prime Minister their great stalwart leaders have begged or asked for, or accept that this is not fair on Rochdale, and what does received, probably on bended knee, such a royal pardon he plan to do about it? and secondly, so that everybody in the country which Governments have been involved in such nefarious activities? The Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise this issue, that what we inherited The Prime Minister: I will look very carefully at the was completely unacceptable. The numbers of asylum question the right hon. Gentleman asks and what more seekers are down by a third from the peak they reached we can do to be transparent, because this Government, under Labour. We are fast-tracking more cases and we not least by holding the on-the-runs review, have been are resolving more cases more quickly, but I have to say transparent. What I would say to him is that Governments 1427 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1428 in the past have had to make difficult decisions with chaotic scenes that have accompanied Network Rail’s respect to Northern Ireland to try to bring parties latest stage of development? Will he instruct the Secretary together and produce the peaceful outcome that we of State for Transport personally to take responsibility have today. That has involved difficult compromises for resolving the debacle and for bringing forward an and things that he and probably I have found, at times, early straightforward compensation scheme for the many deeply distasteful. None the less, sometimes, in the tens of thousands of commuters who have had their pursuit of peace, some of these things have to be done. lives so seriously disrupted?

Q6. [908297] Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): May The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right to I congratulate my right hon. Friend and the Department raise that matter. Anyone who has seen the pictures of for Transport on their securing a £50 million rail what has happened some mornings at London Bridge infrastructure improvement scheme in South West Trains, station knows that the pressures are immense. What we which feeds my constituency? However, we still need need to do is ensure that Transport for London and the better infrastructure—additional track; flyovers and power are working together—as supply—if we are to get longer trains and faster journey they are—to bring about the best possible solution. times to Weymouth and Portland. Will he meet me to People cannot criticise this Government for failing to discuss this further to see whether we can further boost invest in London’s transport infrastructure. The the economy in South Dorset? scheme, which I visited again a couple of weeks ago— [Interruption.] Labour Members say, “We did that”. The Prime Minister: I am always happy to meet my They did not. They left an enormous bill, but it was this hon. Friend and discuss these issues. I believe this Government who put in the money and got it built. It is Government have done right by the south-west, not one thing to promise something, but another to put the least with the announcement the Transport Secretary diggers in the ground and to get it done, which is what has made of an additional 57,000 seats on South West we have done. Trains every week from December and 1,400 extra car parking spaces at train stations across the region. We can have this strong transport investment, not just in Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): It is very the south-west, but right across our country, only because easy to say the words, “long-term economic plan”, but we have a long-term economic plan that is delivering in Brighton, Kemptown, the past five years have seen the growth this country needs. sharply falling unemployment, huge increases in business start-ups, and a massive £480 million investment in the (Makerfield) (Lab): Has the Prime new hospital. Does the Prime Minister think that the Minister not put himself on a fixed-term contract? Is he sun will continue to shine on Brighton? not now concerned that it will be a zero-hours contract after 8 May? The Prime Minister: First, let me pay tribute to my hon. Friend who has been a real champion for Brighton. The Prime Minister: It is very simple what I have said. He has campaigned so hard for the extra investment I answered a very clear question, and perhaps the and the rebuilding of the hospital, and I am glad that Leader of the Opposition will have to answer some the redevelopment of the Royal Sussex county hospital clear questions. It is very simple: two terms, 10 years will take place. I also note that, in his constituency, the and one kitchen. claimant count has gone down by 52% and the long-term youth claimant count by 50% since the last election. On Q7. [908298] Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): that basis, I think that we can say that will Is my right hon. Friend as alarmed as I am— continue to shine on Brighton.

Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must be heard. Q9. [908300] Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I agree with the Prime Minister that the sun shines on Pauline Latham: Is my right hon. Friend as alarmed Brighton; it shines bright green on Brighton Pavilion. as I am that is planning to impose a series of demands on the UK Government? Will my The Brighton Argus recently revealed that, in the right hon. Friend confirm that he will have nothing to space of a single month, nearly 1,700 trains between do with such demands? Brighton and London Victoria ran late, but, to add insult to injury, unfair train company rules meant that The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very passengers could claim compensation on just 59 of important point. As far as I can see, Alex Salmond has those 1,700 journeys. Will he join me in backing The taken the entire Labour party hostage, and today we Argus newspaper campaign for a fairer compensation have got the ransom note. The ransom note is very system that puts money back into passengers’ pockets? clear. It says, “Higher borrowing, uncontrolled immigration, unfettered welfare, higher taxes and weaker defence.” The Prime Minister: I should have said in my previous That is what is being demanded, and the British people answer that the only place in Brighton where the sun have only one way of saying no to this appalling hostage does not shine very brightly is where the local Green situation, which is to vote Conservative on 7 May. council is incapable of emptying people’s dustbins. We need a Tory gain there as well. But the hon. Lady is Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): May I right to raise the case of rail compensation. We are ask the Prime Minister about the continually dire position looking closely at The Argus campaign and at what can at London Bridge station, which is a cause of major be done to make the compensation scheme simpler and concern? Is he aware of the abysmal service and the easier to deliver for people. 1429 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1430

Q10. [908301] Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Minister’s questions, and they normally get these things Thanks to funding from this Government, thousands right. Let me pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman anyway of constituents in the East Riding of Yorkshire and and wish him luck in the current battle he has in his North Lincolnshire now enjoy access to superfast constituency. broadband. That is helping to bridge the digital divide We have all heard such cases in our constituency between rural and urban areas. It is also helping small surgeries, from people who put their money into timeshare businesses in rural areas to benefit from our “long-term schemes with companies that subsequently turned out economic plan”—I had to say it once. However, getting to be disreputable. We have all then had the challenge of broadband rolled out for the remaining properties in getting those companies properly uncovered and regulated. East Riding will be particularly difficult. Will my right I will look into the specific case and write to him, either hon. Friend meet me and other East Riding MPs to in his capacity as an MP or whatever it is after the ensure that we can get the delivery out as quickly as election. possible? Q12. [908303] Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): The Prime Minister: I am always happy to meet my The Prime Minister knows that I have often been hon. Friend who is a real champion for his constituents. unhelpful to the Government in the Health Committee, He is right to put this issue of rural broadband front but as a member of that Committee it is my duty to be and centre in his campaign. As he knows, we are investing impartial. Does he share my concern that the objective around £780 million to get superfast broadband to 95% scrutiny role of the Select Committee system has been of UK premises by 2017. That programme is going well. fundamentally undermined by Labour’s refusal even Every day, our roll-out reaches another 5,000 homes to discuss a draft report, having heard evidence of and businesses. [Interruption.] The Labour party complains, decreased administrative costs since the health reforms, but broadband roll-out has doubled under this Government. privatisation slowing since 2005, the Transatlantic That is what has happened because of the work that we Trade and Investment Partnership not posing a threat have put in. We are investing extra money to ensure that to the NHS, no charges or top-ups introduced, and no we can get to the most hard-to-reach premises, and that plans to do so, and does he agree—[Interruption.] will include subsidising the cost of installing superfast satellite services, which will give access to those in the Mr Speaker: Order. The remainder of the question—I hardest-to-reach areas who currently have the slowest know that it is finishing very soon—must be heard. speeds. Charlotte Leslie: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Committee Mr Speaker: Michael Connarty. heard evidence of no charges or top-ups being introduced, and no plans to do so, and does the Prime Minister An hon. Member: SNP gain! agree that refusing even to discuss that flies in the face of our public—[Interruption.] Q11. [908302] Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): A young couple in my constituency— Mr Speaker: Prime Minister. [Interruption.] The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very Mr Speaker: Order—on both sides of the Chamber. important point. That Select Committee report has It is a gross discourtesy to the hon. Gentleman and to been held back because Labour Members of Parliament his constituents. The hon. Gentleman’s question will be do not want to tell the truth about our national health heard. service; they are only interested in trying to weaponise it. The fact is that there are more doctors and more Michael Connarty: A young couple in my constituency nurses and more operations are being carried out. That were persuaded by Mr Steven Macsporran of the Advice is the truth, and it is disgraceful that Labour is trying to Centre for Mortgages to put a legacy they had into a cover it up, just as it did in office. flat to rent in Turkey. He was an agent for ROPUK. They got no flat and lost £47,000. The Financial Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): No Ombudsman Service said that it could not give any SNP gain here. This is, in fact, my last Prime Minister’s advice because it was unregulated advice. Does the questions after 23 years in this place, but I hope that my Prime Minister agree that that company, and companies very good friend the former Member for Banff and like it, should not be allowed to advertise themselves as Buchan will be rejoining this place in May. Can the being regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority if Prime Minister please tell us which causes him more they give such advice, and is it not time we dealt with anguish: his imminent return or my imminent departure? this rip-off Britain problem? The Prime Minister: I was quite looking forward to The Prime Minister: First, I pay tribute to the hon. missing you both, but obviously that is not going to Gentleman, who is standing down at the election. He be—[Interruption.] I have sat in this House for 14 years, has been a Member of Parliament for—[Interruption.] and all the time that the right hon. Gentleman has been He is not? a Member of Parliament, I remember some very passionate speeches, not least on the Iraq war. I remember some Michael Connarty: I am not. very passionate speeches about civil liberties in our country and making sure that we respond in the right The Prime Minister: I am sorry. Let me rephrase that. way to terror. He has always stood up for his constituents, [Interruption.] I want to defend my team, because this he cares passionately about Wales, he cares passionately is my 146th appearance at the Dispatch Box for Prime about rugby, and he will be missed by everyone. 1431 Oral Answers25 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 1432

Q13. [908304] Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): where development takes place which uses the advantages On the very last day before the 2010 general election, of being near the A38, the developers should use their the Prime Minister, then Leader of the Opposition, profits from those sites to fund noise reduction measures? visited Montgomeryshire. It was a joyous occasion which led to my presence in the House today. Will the Prime The Prime Minister: Today is a good day to discuss Minister make another visit to see for himself the noise pollution. It is probably appropriate that we quieten dramatic improvement in business confidence and the down and think about the subject for a minute. My hon. dramatic falls in unemployment that have taken place in Friend has consistently campaigned on this issue. He is Montgomeryshire as a result of the Government’s long-term quite right to do so—it is a big concern to his constituents. economic plan? We are providing £75 million for noise mitigation on our national road network. We are resurfacing 80% of that network with low noise surfacing. That can make a The Prime Minister: It was a huge pleasure to go and real difference, and I will look carefully at what we can visit my hon. Friend just before the last election. I do for my hon. Friend’s constituency. thought it was a bit of a long shot, but none the less he made it here and he has been a fantastic Member of Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Last week some Parliament, standing up for his constituents. In Wales of the rougher elements of the House chose to refer to since the election we have 22,000 more small businesses, the Prime Minister as “chicken”. I hope we have moved employment in Wales going up by 52,000, unemployment on. However, does the Prime Minister agree that it is coming down and private sector growth. We see a real entirely fair now to refer to him as a lame duck? recovery in Wales and it needs my hon. Friend back here, standing up for his constituents and for Wales in The Prime Minister: I will tell the hon. Gentleman the House of Commons. what is a lame duck—trying to get into Downing street on the back of Alex Salmond’s coat tails. The Opposition now know that they cannot win the election on their Sir Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I have here a own, so they are preparing to answer the ransom note. cutting from The Press in York on 24 April 2010, which Higher taxes, more borrowing, weaker defence, breaking says: up our Union—that is what we have to stop. Never “David Cameron last night dismissed claims the Tories would mind talk of ducks; I am looking at Alex Salmond’s put up VAT if they win the election”. poodle.

That was at the last election. Why should the public Q15. [908306] Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): On believe promises that he makes at the coming election? Friday, together with local businesses and the local enterprise partnership, I will be launching a new campaign, The Prime Minister: I have given the straightest possible Gateway to Growth, calling for a link road from the M4 answer, and this time in government we know what to the Avon ring road that will help to deliver millions needs to be done—we know the changes, and both sides of pounds of extra investment and new jobs to the of this House have voted for a £30 billion adjustment. Bristol region, and provide the Kingswood area with Those on the Labour Front Bench voted for it too. We the access to the motorway it needs. As part of his have set out what needs to happen with departmental long-term economic plan, will the Prime Minister look spending, welfare and tax avoidance. The Labour party closely at the campaign and the case for an M4 link? has said that half of the £30 billion must be raised in The Prime Minister: First of all, let me pay tribute to taxes, so we know it: there is a tax bombshell coming my hon. Friend for his very hard work for people in from Labour, and it is going to be, we learned today, a Kingswood and in Bristol more generally. He is absolutely jobs tax bombshell. They wanted to do it before the last right that we do need to see better transit schemes in election, and they want to do it after the next election. It Bristol, and I know that the Transport Secretary will be would wreck our economy and put up taxes for working happy to look at the campaign and the case he makes. It people, and there is only one group of people who can is also of note—and I am sure that, as a great historian stop it. and, indeed, someone who has written about Richard III, my hon. Friend would want me to say it—that we should Q14. [908305] Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Many not let this day pass without noting that of course hundreds of households in Amber Valley still suffer Richard III will be buried tomorrow. That is worth from noise from the A38 through my constituency. remembering. It is the last time that someone did in one Does my right hon. Friend agree that measures to of their relatives to get the top job and the country reduce the noise should be brought forward, and that ended up in chaos. 1433 Oral Answers 25 MARCH 2015 1434

BILL PRESENTED Tax Transparency and International Development PROTECTION OF CHILDREN (REMOVAL OF POLICE DISCRETION) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23) Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Mr Barry Sheerman, supported by Sarah Champion, 12.37 pm Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Meg Munn and Liz McInnes, presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to remove the Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I beg to move, discretionary decision-making power afforded to police That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require country by officers in charging individuals with rape in cases relating country public reporting for all multinational companies; to to acts of sexual intercourse involving persons aged strengthen controlled foreign company rules and overseas bond under 16; and for connected purposes. rules; to establish a public register of beneficial ownership, including in the Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories; to introduce Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on a penalty regime for the General Anti-Abuse Rule; to measure the Friday 27 March 2015, and to be printed (Bill 195). impact of tax regimes on developing countries; to establish a commitment to use the international aid budget to strengthen tax systems in developing countries; and for connected purposes. It has been a great privilege over the past three years to serve as a member of the International Development Committee and to see with my own eyes the difference that UK aid is making in the poorest countries around the world. That is something that we should be all be proud to champion during the general election campaign. Not only is eradicating poverty a worthwhile ambition in itself, it is also the best route to reducing conflict in an unstable world. When I joined the Committee, it was considering its report on tax in developing countries. The introduction to the report begins with the following words: “Tax is an issue of fundamental importance for development. If developing countries are to escape from aid dependency, and from poverty more broadly, it is imperative that their revenue authorities are able to collect taxes effectively. Tax revenues represent a more predictable and sustainable source of revenue than aid flows ever can.” This Bill seeks to empower developing countries at a time when they are vulnerable to companies seeking to exploit their natural resources and economic development potential. The citizens of these countries should benefit from those resources and that economic growth so that they can shape the future of their own nation and of generations to come who can grow up free from poverty if we act to ensure fairness and transparency and to prevent this wealth from flowing to nameless beneficiaries. This is not just an issue that exercises people in this place. Tax avoidance has become a hot topic. A ComRes survey last year found that 85% of the public believe that corporate tax avoidance is morally wrong even when legal. Outside Parliament, a collective of international development charities and many of my constituents have called on the UK Government to introduce an anti-tax dodging Bill early in the next Parliament. The charities say that such a Bill could raise an additional £3.6 billion for the Treasury, as well as help developing countries to improve their revenue collection and national income. They say that developing countries currently lose $160 billion a year in potential revenue owing to corporate tax dodging, which is more than the amount given annually in overseas aid by all rich countries. I should like to put on record my thanks to those charities for their work, especially Christian Aid and ActionAid. Not only does tax dodging remove revenue from developing countries that could help them to create infrastructure and growth, but it takes money from public services and undermines the social contract between citizens and the state. The current Government have not done enough to tackle tax avoidance. The amount of 1435 Tax Transparency and International 25 MARCH 2015 Tax Transparency and International 1436 Development Development [Fiona O’Donnell] whether there are any adverse consequences on the ability of developing countries to collect tax. The uncollected tax has risen year on year, increasing to Netherlands and Ireland have already done so. Given £34 billion in 2012-13. I am proud that my party—the that the UK has led on so many aspects of development Labour party—has committed to tackling tax avoidance policy, we should not allow ourselves to lag behind on in its first Finance Bill if it wins, or rather when it wins, that. the general election. While the UK Government are beginning to work on The Tax Transparency and International Development strengthening tax systems, we need to ensure that more Bill seeks, by closing loopholes and imposing penalties, is done, and that aid is targeted on it. Prosecution is to ensure that multinational companies do not receive only one deterrent against avoidance; public pressure is unjustified tax breaks, and that our tax rules do not another. That is why we need to ensure that we know incentivise companies to avoid tax in developing countries. how money is being raised and spent, and we must push It also seeks to make our tax system more transparent. for country-by-country reporting for all multinationals. While leading the G8 at Lough Erne in 2013, the Although the G20, OECD and the UK Government Prime Minister said that the agenda for the world’s support country-by-country reporting—with the Government most powerful nations should focus on trade, tax and stating in their Budget Red Book that reporting will transparency, and made it clear that that should be to bring in £10 million of additional tax by 2018-19—they the benefit of developing countries, and yet, reporting have not agreed to make the information public. That to the House in autumn last year following the G20 means that people in developing countries will not be meeting in Brisbane, he did not mention developing able to access the information. The work of the Public countries once. He mentioned tax avoidance in his Accounts Committee on corporate tax avoidance illustrates statement—he reported that an additional $37 billion the importance of public engagement with these issues. had been taken from big companies as a result of steps In line with the 2013 G8 declaration, which stated: taken by the G20—but when I asked him how much of “Companies should know who really owns them and tax that revenue had benefited developing countries, he did collectors and law enforcers should be able to obtain this information not know the answer. easily”, Tackling avoidance is key to tackling global poverty the UK has introduced the first register of beneficial and inequality and it cannot therefore be an afterthought. ownership in not only the UK, but the world. We That is why the Bill is crucial. With that in mind, let me should be proud of that, but we need to do more to describe the specifics of the Bill. The Government make sure that the overseas territories and Crown introduced the general anti-abuse rule, which aims to dependencies have public registers, too. To date, none of catch those who set up abusive schemes, but there is those countries has committed to a public register. currently no penalty scheme, so the rule lacks teeth. Following the Prime Minister’s statement to the House The Bill calls for tough penalties to ensure that companies on the G7 meeting in Brussels last June, I asked him cannot avoid paying their fair share. I welcome the fact what progress had been made. He replied that that the Government have committed to introducing a “we should commend them for the work that they have done to diverted profits tax, commonly known as a Google tax, bring their arrangements up to date. I had this conversation with from April 2015, which aims to impose a 25% tax rate them almost exactly this time...They have made huge steps forward, on profits that companies have diverted out of the UK. and we should commend them for that and encourage them to go That policy is flawed because it does not apply to loan further.”—[Official Report, 11 June 2014; Vol. 582, c. 555.] arrangements, which allow multinationals to give loans However, that is simply not the case. When I raised the to their subsidiaries in higher tax countries, the interest issue with the Business Secretary, he confirmed that we on which is deductible against tax, giving the subsidiaries have not used our influence effectively. a tax break while the interest payments end up overseas We must continue to push this issue, and that is why it in a tax haven. Closing that loan loophole for exemptions is central to this Bill. Despite the Government’s warm could mean that by 2017-18 we will raise even more words, four of the overseas territories and Crown than the £350 million that is estimated in the Budget dependencies have so far ruled out a public register and Red Book. none has committed to one. We must do more to deliver Similarly, in the 1980s, the controlled foreign companies on the Lough Erne leaders’ communiqué signed off by rules were introduced to deter British companies from our Prime Minister. shifting profits to tax havens by stipulating that profits This Bill will ensure that multinational companies do could still be taxed at their full UK rate. CFCs not only not receive unjustified tax breaks, by closing loopholes helped us to maintain our tax base, but they helped and imposing penalties. It will give a fairer deal, do other countries, including developing countries, to raise more to tackle poverty and give transparency to our tax decent taxes. In 2013, the Government altered the rules system. The developing countries of this world deserve so that they applied only to profits shifted out of the no less. I commend this Bill to the House. UK, and not to profits shifted out of other countries. In Question put and agreed to. effect, the coalition gave a green light to avoidance by Ordered, multinationals based in the UK. In contrast, the Bill That Fiona O’Donnell, Dame Anne McGuire, Anas would reverse the revisions and strengthen the rules, Sarwar, , Ann McKechin, Jeremy Lefroy, which the Treasury has said cost UK taxpayers £900 million Sheila Gilmore, and Fabian Hamilton present a year. the Bill. The altered controlled foreign companies rules highlight Fiona O’Donnell accordingly presented the Bill. the need for the UK Government to carry out spillover Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on analysis. However, we need to go further by assessing Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 196). 1437 25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1438

Finance (No. 2) Bill investment scheme and venture capital trusts. The Government would look to legislate on all five of those Second Reading clauses at the earliest opportunity at the start of the new Parliament. 12.48 pm I will happily take further interventions this afternoon, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David but let me first set out the order in which I intend to Gauke): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a discuss the measures in the Bill. I will begin by talking Second time. about those that will boost growth and enterprise. Next, Finance Bill 2015 takes another step forward in this I will cover those that tackle avoidance and aggressive Government’s long-term economic plan. As my right tax planning and then I will cover those that help hon. Friend the Chancellor set out in last Wednesday’s families and savers do more with the money they earn. Budget statement, we have grown faster than any other Finally, I will talk about how the Bill, like previous major advanced economy in the world; more people Finance Acts in this Parliament, will help to deliver a have jobs in Britain than ever before; and the standard simpler tax system. of living is rising and set to rise further. We are cleaning Let me begin with the measures designed to boost up the economic mess we inherited in 2010 and delivering growth and encourage enterprise. Hon. Members will a fairer economy for all. be aware that our long-term economic plan is working This Bill will build on that success. It will help British and confidence is returning to businesses and our markets, businesses to invest and create jobs, help British households but that growth would not have been possible without to work and save, and help ensure everyone in Britain the hard work of businesses up and down the country. pays their fair share of tax. During our five years in office, we have created the right environment to help businesses start, grow and succeed. Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): That When we came to office, Britain had one of the least will also have the effect of increasing complexity in competitive business tax regimes in Europe. Now it is the taxation system. Whatever happened to the tax the most competitive. Next week, corporation tax will simplification project? be cut to 20%, one of the lowest rates of any major Mr Gauke: We have established the Office of Tax economy in the world. By 2016, that will mean £9.5 billion Simplification and put in place a large number of its savings for businesses across the UK every year. That is recommendations. I could spend some time talking why more and more businesses are moving operations Members through some of them. It is also worth pointing here, starting up here or growing here. out that just last week the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Bill will also bolster support for research and announced plans to take very large numbers of people development and the creative sector. We are increasing out of having to pay income tax on their savings, the research and development tax credit for small and reducing the need for them to be in the self-assessment medium-sized enterprises from 225% to 230%, increasing system. Indeed, we have set out longer-term plans to the rate of film tax relief to 25% for all expenditure and simplify the operation of the tax system through a more introducing a new children’s television tax relief. I am digitised system with online tax accounts, which will sure those are industries that Members on both sides of make a substantial difference to many people. I should the House will support. also point out that from April of this year we will have The Government will not sit back and let hundreds of one rate of corporation tax, which means that we no thousands of jobs be put at risk thanks to falling oil longer need a marginal rate with some 50,000 businesses prices. The Bill recognises the importance of the future having to calculate what to pay in a more complicated of the North sea oil and gas industry, our largest way. The Government have taken a number of steps on industrial sector. With effect from the start of next tax simplification. month, the Bill introduces a single, simple and generous We are committed to all the tax measures that the tax allowance to stimulate investment at all stages of Chancellor set out last Wednesday, but appreciating the the industry, giving investors early certainty for their constraints on the timetable we have deliberately held a long-term investment decisions. We are also cutting number of measures back and published a shorter Bill petroleum revenue tax from 50% to 35% to encourage than would otherwise have been the case. Unlike under continued production in older fields. Backdated to the previous Governments, legislation for Finance Bills since beginning of January this year, as announced by my 2011 has been published in draft three months ahead of right hon. Friend the Chancellor last week, the Bill also the final publication of the Bill. Under this new approach, cuts the supplementary charge from 32% to 20%. we published more than 250 pages of draft legislation in December for technical consultation, again meeting our Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): My hon. Friend commitment to expose legislation in draft. talks about the policies that are being put in place by We are proceeding today on the basis of consent. The the Government to help businesses. Does he share my Opposition required us to remove five clauses from the view that the freezing of fuel duty has helped not just Bill following discussions last week. The clauses concern businesses but individuals, and can he tell us how much a new tax exemption for the travel expenses of members of a saving businesses and individuals make every time of local authorities; a new statutory exemption from they fill up their vehicle? income tax for trivial benefits in kind, implementing a recommendation of the Office of Tax Simplification’s Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Very review of employee benefits and expenses; simplifying often, the debate in this House is about the impact on link company requirements for consortium claims under individuals of the freeze on fuel duty, which has considerably corporation tax; a separate rate of excise duty for aqua reduced how much fuel costs. As a consequence of our methanol; and changes to scheme rules for the enterprise measures, £10 is saved per tank full of petrol. He is also 1439 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1440

[Mr Gauke] Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend is being generous in giving way. I welcome the diverted profits tax and I right to mention the impact on businesses, because think that my constituents will very much welcome that many of them, particularly smaller ones, pay this tax. measure. Will he confirm that it comes on top of all the We can sometimes forget that in that debate. Fuel duty work the Government are leading at the OECD and is now 16p per litre lower than it would have been under that, in September or later this year, we will therefore the previous Government’s plans. see further rules coming in to clamp down on base Let me return to the provisions on oil and gas. The erosion? new cluster area allowance will support the development of one of the biggest fields in the UK continental shelf, Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend again makes a very good which is expected to generate about 3,500 jobs and point. This Government have led the way in the more than £3 billion in capital investment. As hon. establishment of the OECD’s base erosion and profit Members can see, the Bill tackles some of the challenges shifting project. We are already implementing some of facing our business community and our economy. its conclusions, including in this Bill, but there is more work to be done. The diverted profits tax is consistent Now that I have set out such competitive tax rates, with the direction that we want the BEPS project to go designed specifically to support our businesses, let me in, which is to align economic activity more closely with say that we expect those taxes to be paid. The Bill taxing rights. That is the direction in which the international continues the Government’s firm action against the tax system needs to move, and the diverted profits tax is small minority who seek out unacceptable ways to consistent with that approach. reduce or delay paying the taxes they owe. Under the Bill, we will legislate to create a fairer tax system by The Bill legislates for corporation tax loss refresh clamping down on tax avoidance and ensuring that prevention, which will stop companies obtaining a tax banks contribute their fair share. Taking effect from the advantage by entering highly contrived arrangements start of next month, the Bill will introduce a new to turn old tax losses into new, more versatile losses. We diverted profits tax of 25%, aimed at large multinationals will close loopholes to make sure that entrepreneurs that artificially shift their profits offshore to avoid paying relief is available only to those selling genuine stakes in UK tax. As part of the project, I can confirm that we businesses. We are strengthening civil sanctions targeting are working with five other tax authorities to investigate individuals with hidden income, gains or assets overseas and challenge how digital multinationals shift their to ensure that taxpayers who do not pay their fair share profits to tax havens. For the first time, we are gathering are penalised. We are tackling avoidance by large businesses a full global picture of the tax risks those companies and wealthy individuals, and we are tackling tax evaders. pose that is invaluable in helping us take decisive action. Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend is talking about fairness The Bill will also increase the bank levy to 0.21% and in the tax system, which we all want. Will he confirm introduce new rules for banks on carried forward losses, that under this Government the top 1% of taxpayers to ensure that banking companies can use them only to will pay more in tax than they ever did under the relieve up to 50% of company profits. Combined, those previous Government? measures will raise nearly £8 billion over the next five years. We have always been clear that banks should Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes another excellent make an additional contribution that reflects the risks point. This year, the proportion of income tax paid by they pose to the UK economy, and now that banks are the highest earning 1% will be above 27%, higher than strengthening their balance sheets and returning to for any year under the previous Government. I dare say profitability, they should make a greater contribution that we will debate that in a little more detail later this to the economic recovery. afternoon. On this Government’s record in ensuring that those with the broadest shoulders make the biggest Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I welcome the increase in contribution, the facts are very clear: they are doing so the bank levy. Does the Minister agree that it is extremely under us. A whole host of measures that we have taken, difficult for a bank to avoid the levy, whereas the tax on not least in areas of tax avoidance, have ensured that we bonuses, for example, would be very easy to avoid? are getting in that money.

Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): My hon. Friend is Indeed, that is why the previous Chancellor of the making a powerful case on the work that the Government Exchequer, the right hon. Member for South have done to tackle tax avoidance. What is being done West (Mr Darling), made it clear that the bank bonus to throw the book at the promoters of tax avoidance levy could only really be effective for one year. It is schemes and people who continually try their luck by important that we have something sustainable that can entering such schemes? exist for much longer. Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend—given his background, Mr Love: The Chancellor indicated to the Treasury he is an expert in tax matters—has been a consistently Committee yesterday that he was minded to make the strong advocate of taking tough action in this area. I bank levy permanent. Will the Financial Secretary reassure can certainly reassure him that one of our very important the House that that is his intention? strands of work has been to take on the promoters of tax avoidance schemes. Indeed, we are bringing in measures Mr Gauke: We believe that the bank levy and the to place greater burdens on them to disclose the position additional contribution from the banking sector are not they are in, as well as greater surveillance and supervision just for the short term, but need to be sustainable, so I of them. During this Parliament, we have seen a dramatic entirely endorse the Chancellor’s remarks yesterday. fall in the number of tax avoidance schemes being 1441 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1442 promoted, which is very good news. There has been a consultation. As such, the majority of measures contained real change in the climate, driven not least by the action in the Bill have been drawn up following lengthy consultation that the Government have taken. I believe that we have with interest groups and businesses. The Bill continues a very proud record in dealing with tax avoidance and to build on the excellent work of Michael Jack and John the causes of tax avoidance. Whiting at the Office of Tax Simplification, and it includes a package of measures that will help to simplify Mr Love rose— tax administration for businesses in several ways.

Mr Gauke: I will give way again, because I know that Mr Love rose— the hon. Gentleman does not have long left in this House. I am more than happy to give him another Mr Gauke: I will give way one last time. opportunity to intervene, but I must then make a little progress. Mr Love: According to the Financial Times this morning, the Bill will add significantly to the complexity to the Mr Love: I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so tax code. The number of pages in Tolley’s is going up generous with his time. The Chancellor has indicated and up. We are told that we now have the longest tax that, if he is returned to government, he will look for code in the world, having overtaken India some years £5 billion of savings from evasion and avoidance; yet in ago, but the Financial Secretary is presenting this as if it its Budget report, the Office for Budget Responsibility were a simplification. This is contrary to the entire could find only just over £3 billion of savings among the thrust of public debate on these issues. When will we get Chancellor’s provisions, which leaves a gap. Will the some tax simplification? Financial Secretary explain to the House how he intends to fill that gap during the next Parliament? Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman may be interested to hear, or he may already be aware, that the Office of Tax Mr Gauke: Given this Government’s record on the Simplification has looked at what constitutes complexity measures introduced in Finance Act after Finance Act, within the tax system. One conclusion that it reached the support provided to Her Majesty’s Revenue and was that the number of pages in the tax code is not a Customs in additional powers and resources for this particularly good barometer of complexity. For example, area and the fact that yield has increased very substantially the rewriting of the tax code that occurred over many during this Parliament—from £17 billion in 2010 to years lengthened it, but the intention was to make it £26 billion now—we are confident that further savings simpler to understand. can be found. Through a combination of measures I would make this challenge to the hon. Gentleman: dealing with tax evasion, tax avoidance and aggressive which elements of the Bill would he not want? For tax planning, we believe that £5 billion can be found. example, there are 40 or so pages on oil and gas tax reform, which I believe all parties recognise is a necessary I now turn to how the Bill will help hard-working response to the current circumstances, but that will families. This Government have a proud record of reducing lengthen the tax code. A number of pages are being tax for the lowest-paid. Not only will the Bill deliver our added to the tax code because of the diverted profits commitment to raise the income tax personal allowance tax, but all parties recognise the need for such a tax to to £10,600 from the start of the new tax year, but it will deal with artificially contrived arrangements. I appreciate legislate to raise it to £10,800 in 2016-17 and to £11,000 his point and the spirit in which he makes it and I share in 2017-18. By 2017, a standard rate taxpayer will be the desire for greater tax simplification, but there are £900 better off than under the previous Government’s some challenges in that for a Government who also plans and that an individual on the national minimum want to deal with avoidance and ensure that we have a wage working up to 30 hours a week will not pay any competitive tax system for the oil and gas sector. income tax whatsoever. That is a tax cut for 27 million people, and it means that this Government have taken almost 4 million of the lowest-paid out of income tax Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I do not wish to altogether. revisit old debates about simplification, but does my hon. Friend have a view about the future strategy on We are passing on the full gains of that policy, so for anti-abuse rules? I believe that when Graham Aaronson the first time in seven years, the threshold at which examined the general anti-abuse rule, he thought that people pay the higher tax rate will rise not just in line after about five years we would be able to start to do with inflation, but above inflation. It will rise from away with individual anti-avoidance rules and rely on £42,385 this year to £43,300 by 2017-18. Under the Bill, the GAAR. We could therefore remove some of the the rate of the new transferable tax allowance for married more complicated provisions and the loopholes that go couples will rise to £1,100, providing help for more than with them. Does my hon. Friend think that could work, 4 million couples. We are legislating to exempt children or does he think it should be ruled out and that we must from air passenger duty so that, together with measures have both the general and specific rules? introduced in the Finance Act 2014, a family of four flying to Australia will now save £194. The Government Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend does not want to revisit have made clear their commitment to support households old debates, but I tempted to give a response that I in the UK and to put more of their hard-earned money suspect I have given him before. The general anti-abuse back in their pockets, where it belongs. rule is a big step forward, and it was absolutely right Finally and briefly, I turn to tax simplification, which that this Government introduced it. Other Governments was touched on earlier. Under this Government’s new had considered it but felt that it was not the right thing approach to tax policy making, we published more than to do. However, it is there to complement the existing 250 pages of draft legislation in December for technical measures, and we will want to see how the GAAR 1443 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1444

[Mr Gauke] Secretary and his colleagues in the Treasury team, but I want to extend a little hand of friendship across the works over time rather than rush to judgment. I do not Chamber. I know that this can be a difficult, even believe that a future Conservative Government would frenzied time, trying to draft legislation straight after a want to risk opening up new loopholes because of Budget and get things together at the last minute. uncertainty about exactly how the GAAR applies. It is However, we all aspire to be good parliamentarians, of course an anti-abuse rule and sets a reasonably high and it is incumbent on us to do our duty to scrutinise bar for behaviour covered by it, and I suspect my hon. the Bill’s provisions properly and ensure that they are Friend agrees that that is right because of its broad considered fully. nature. We will have to wait and see before I make any We are in the dying hours of this Parliament, but the commitment to repealing various targeted anti-avoidance Bill’s provisions—as my hon. Friend the Member for rules. Edmonton (Mr Love) said, they will add to the tax code—are significant and will have a real impact on the Charlie Elphicke rose— economy and on many people’s tax and financial affairs. Ensuring that the Bill has proper scrutiny is therefore Mr Gauke: I give way to another Member who, like incredibly important. If we are honest, we have limped my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel along in what has felt like a zombie Parliament in the Mills), is a former member of the tax profession. past year in particular, with little going on. I am therefore a little surprised that there is a burst of energy all of a Charlie Elphicke: My hon. Friend is being extremely sudden, given that many of the Bill’s provisions could generous in giving way. May I turn to the provisions on have been discussed, published and thought through at oil taxation and the revenues from oil, given what has a more civilised pace. It is almost as though the Financial happened to the oil price? Does he have any idea of how Secretary were doing one of those cycle races in a big a black hole would be driven into the finances of an velodrome where it is all very slow until the last minute. independent Scotland were there to be another referendum There seems to be a bit of a panic in the Treasury. campaign fought by the losers from last time? The Bill contains 131 clauses of complex tax changes, affecting the energy generating sector, tax avoidance, Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I pensioners and businesses, but we have been given only believe that oil revenues are something like a 10th of six hours to cover all of it. I accept that we have little what the Scottish National party predicted, but I will choice about that because of how the Fixed-term happily stand corrected if I am wrong. The fact is that a Parliaments Act 2011 works—in the fifth and final year united kingdom is better able to absorb volatility in the of the Parliament we can see that Parliament will prorogue oil price than an independent Scotland would ever be. at a given point. Nevertheless, I want to put on record Given what has happened to the oil price, it is clearly to our disappointment that we have not found a better way the benefit of Scotland that those calling for independence of improving the scrutiny of this year’s Finance Bill. were roundly defeated last year. Normally we would have a Public Bill Committee, in which we could spend fun-packed hours going through Ian Swales: Will the Financial Secretary give way? every provision. Sometimes I feel that such Committees go all too quickly. Mr Gauke: I will give way one last time, but I am conscious that many Members will want to speak. Mr Gauke: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Ian Swales: I thank the Financial Secretary. I am sure that he would accept, having looked at the business case : I will; perhaps the Minister can say how for the changes in oil taxation, that the economic effects we will compress that process into six hours. of the oil industry are much wider than simply the winning of oil. In particular, the engineering and Mr Gauke: I share the hon. Gentleman’s sense of loss manufacturing industries in the north-east of England that there is not the usual Committee stage upstairs this are pleased by the moves that have been made. year. To be clear, it is necessary to pass a Finance Bill after Budget resolutions have been passed, and there is Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes a good point. clearly a short period between those resolutions being Particularly in the north-east of England, a number of passed and Prorogation. I am sure he recognises that businesses are ancillary to the oil industry, so I am there were discussions last week in the usual manner, grateful for his remarks. and that clauses that the Opposition believed should be The Bill takes further steps to deliver long-term, debated and dealt with in the next Parliament have been sustainable economic growth. It puts in place a more withdrawn. The clauses that remain are those that the competitive environment for business, takes more people Labour party accepted should be dealt with in the Bill. out of income tax, continues our reforms of the tax system and supports the continued success of our industries. Chris Leslie: I do accept that, and it is good that we I commend it to the House. have had discussions through the usual channels, treating the Finance Bill this year more in what is known as the “wash-up” procedure rather than our normal less- 1.16 pm constrained procedures. Nevertheless, I think we should Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pause and dwell on the fact that in a fixed-term Parliament strange moment in the life of this five-year Parliament the date of the final Budget may have consequences to be here debating the coalition’s last Finance Bill. downstream for the legislation that is spat out at the Obviously I have great disagreements with the Financial other end. Perhaps we should consider allowing a little 1445 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1446 more time between the final Budget and the end of the absorb and assimilate all the provisions and to do Parliament—obviously a Labour Government will be justice to the Bill. Nevertheless we will give it a go and in power for the next five years, so this may be quoted try our level best. back at me in five years’ time—so that we have a more Ultimately, the Finance Bill could not disguise the considered approach. coalition’s failures of the past five years. There is a slow recovery, but it is not being felt far and wide. By the Charlie Elphicke: Is it a Labour party manifesto standards and tests that the Government set when they commitment to have an early Budget in the last year of came to office and made their promises in 2010, the a Labour Government in a fixed-term Parliament scenario? Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have failed, particularly on the public finances. They have failed to Chris Leslie: The hon. Gentleman must wait for our eliminate the deficit, which should have gone by now. In manifesto in w which we shall reveal all those details. fact, in the autumn statement 2010 the Chancellor trumpeted that he would bring forward to 2014-15 the year by which the current structural deficit would be (Oldham East and Saddleworth) eradicated, yet we find ourselves with a £90 billion (Lab): Is my hon. Friend as concerned as I am that there current budget deficit, which fell by only 5% on the is so little distributional analysis in the Finance Bill, previous year—not exactly the rate we were promised. given the past five years in which the poorest in society fared the worst and our concerns about an increase in There are many other structural issues in the economy. VAT looming in the not-too-distant future if the I do not know whether my hon. Friends remember the Government get back in? Chancellor’s promise about the march of the makers, but I am afraid that this country’s exports have not lived up to the £1 trillion target set for 2020; we are already a Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend’s point about distributional mere £300 billion off course in achieving that. Before analysis is a good one. We know that those on lower and the last election the Chancellor set the litmus test of middle incomes have been hit particularly hard: people cherishing our triple A rating, but of course that was on the lowest incomes do not benefit from many of the downgraded. changes that the Government have made, and we must consider what data we need. One thing in the Finance Bill that supports the Government’s fiscal strategy was the revelation of how My point about parliamentary procedure is not just extreme the cuts will be to public services over the next about the political dates of Budgets and so forth; it is three years—twice as deep over the next three years as also about the time that officials and civil servants have we have seen for the past five years. In the words of the to draft some of the provisions and proposals. I do not Office for Budget Responsibility, the “rollercoaster” is understand why it has to be so last minute and by the about to go over the precipice, and public finances, seat of their pants. It is one thing to exclude one’s social care, the police, defence and many other public political opponents from the reveal moment of the services will be pushed over the edge of that cliff should Budget, but surely it would be good to ensure that the coalition parties Government have a further five proper internal arrangement are in place in the Treasury years in office. for drafting these arrangements. It is no wonder that when people look at the impact The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England of deep and extreme cuts to what Government Ministers and Wales has its concerns: term “non-protected departments”, and see how deep “we do not think that Parliamentary consideration amounting to they will be, they say, “Well that isn’t going to happen; only one day is in any way sufficient to consider and pass another it’s impossible to countenance that they would end up significant Finance Bill that runs to 349 pages and contains a taking 30%, 40% or 50% from some of those departments.” considerable amount of controversial legislation.” It is no wonder that people then believe there must be An article in today’s Financial Times quoted Heather another plan, either for raising taxes or for cutting Self of the law firm Pinsent Masons. She said that the other services that some assume ought to be protected, decision to rush through the Finance Bill was in particular the national health service. “an abrogation of the parliamentary process…Legislation this We had the debate on VAT, but I find it difficult to complicated should not be going through without parliamentary take the Prime Minister’s words seriously. These days, scrutiny”. he has a habit of shooting from the hip—about whether My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love) he is retiring or what his views are for the day—so I am was right when he talked about Tolley tax handbooks—I not sure that people will necessarily say, “Oh well, the know his walls are adorned with the tax code in fine, Prime Minister said he’s not going to do it. That’s that leather-bound tomes. He will know that when the coalition then”. That is sort of what he said before the last came to office, there were 17,795 pages in that tax general election about having absolutely no plans to handbook, but by the end of this Parliament that has raise VAT, but it was only a matter of weeks before he risen to 21,414 pages. The Minister says that is not a got round to doing it. good barometer. I suppose it is good for publishers and perhaps makes my hon. Friend’s library a little more Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. expansive and extensive, but I suspect it makes things Friend will know that the number of people earning more difficult for people to understand and follow. I more than £20,000 has fallen by 800,000 since 2010, and think that our constituents deserve better and want the slack has been taken up by more and more people proper scrutiny of the Finance Bill, and we will try our on low pay and zero-hours contracts. Does he accept best to do that. The House should bear in mind the fact that we are facing these draconian cuts because the that the Bill appeared in the Vote Office yesterday, so it Government are overseeing a completely unsustainable is difficult even for my diligent hon. Friends properly to business model and creating more and more low-paid 1447 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1448

[Geraint Davies] Chris Leslie: It is in the very first clause of the Bill: it seems that the Government’s proudest achievement is people who cannot pay any tax? The revenues are not to cut the highest rate of income tax for those earning coming in, which is why they have borrowed more in £150,000. They want the rate to be 45p instead of 50p. five years than Labour did in 13. That has been their priority.They regard that as something that the country has been crying out for and that will Chris Leslie: As ever, my hon. Friend manages to sum make a big difference to the economy. I suppose if one up the Government’s record in a pithy and simple views the economy through a trickle-down prism and intervention. I had not heard those statistics about the believes that tax cuts lavished on the very wealthiest in number of people earning more than £20,000, but I society will percolate down and everybody else will shall certainly take a look at the points he makes. We benefit as a result— shall perhaps look at those statistics in more detail. My hon. Friend’s point about living standards is a Ian Swales rose— good one that all Members should intuitively and properly understand. If we do not include everybody in the Chris Leslie: Well, maybe that is the logic of the growth of the economy, if everybody does not have a Liberal Democrats in supporting these particular measures. stake or a share in it, if their consumer capabilities are I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but he has to not stronger, and if we do not tackle the sustainability admit that it was an error to ensure that those earning challenge for growth in the future, we should not be more than £150,000 received a tax cut. Anyone earning surprised to find that we have an unequal recovery. £1 million this year will have benefited to the tune of Britain will only succeed if working people succeed. £42,000 in tax cuts. He does have regrets about that, That is a catchy way of summing that up, and Government doesn’t he? Members may well hear it a few more times in the coming weeks, but it is true. Ian Swales: Will the hon. Gentleman explain why the Ultimately, our public finances are not determined in Government he was a part of put up 100 taxes in isolation, as though they are frozen in aspic. They 13 years, but rejected putting up the higher rate of cannot simply be dealt with in terms of cuts or changes income tax for the entire period until the day they left in revenue: there is a dynamic, strategic set of issues that office? It was 40% then—those same millionaires were relate to what is happening in the real economy and the that much better off under his Government. real world. The health of our economy will ultimately determine the health of our public finances. The Prime Chris Leslie: That sounds as though the hon. Gentleman Minister and others say, “Why are you talking about was in favour of the 50p rate and regrets that it was not living standards? Why are you talking about these things? implemented earlier. That is the usual argument: why That is not really the economy; it’s not about growth.” did the previous Government only put it up towards the Of course it is. Ultimately, these things are related. end of the Parliament? The global banking crisis hit in The low-wage economy the Chancellor has been heading 2008, when we were already a long way through that us towards is a danger to our public finances. We are Parliament. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman seems enduring an epidemic of job insecurity. The number of to be a banking crisis denier. He seems to think that it zero-hours contracts has ballooned by more than 20% had nothing to do with the fiscal situation. He must in the past year alone. That is a problem for those who admit in his heart of hearts that the banking crisis cannot plan even for the child care they need for the created great pressures on our public finances. It reduced week ahead, let alone for getting a mortgage. It is also a number of revenues and caused the deficit we have bad because it undermines the tax receipts the Treasury had to tackle. As a consequence, the tax changes that needs to sustain and pay for public services. It means followed the banking crisis were bound to come in 2009, that tax credits need to be higher to subsidise low pay and that was the period in which we chose to introduce and it is why the social security bill is £25 billion higher the 50p top rate. He should not be surprised that it came than the Chancellor expected. in towards the end of that Parliament, because the banking crisis and all the ripples that flowed from it Those living standards issues come up time and again also happened at the end of the Parliament. Let us nail in surgeries, meetings and encounters that my hon. that one for a start. Friends have with our constituents. Some 900,000 people are using food banks, and some 600,000 people have The cut in the rate of income tax was the wrong thing been hit by the cruelty of the bedroom tax. These issues for the hon. Gentleman and the Conservative party to will come back to haunt Ministers. They have attempted have prioritised. I think many people in our country to deal with the deficit by hurting those on the lowest regard it as a real obscenity. It is a perverse set of incomes. It has not worked; it has not succeeded; and it priorities and we would reverse them because the public is a strategy that will just get worse in the coming years. finances need the extra support. The public finances need those with the broadest shoulders to contribute a Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): fairer share. I was at a Budget briefing in Dunfermline given by a local accountancy firm, Thomson Cooper, on Friday. It Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) was pointed out that those earning more than £150,000 (Lab): My hon. Friend will know the excellent work of a year under this Government actually have a lower the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers in marginal tax rate than those earning £100,000 a year. raising the profile of issues affecting workers in the Does my hon. Friend think that that is a really good retail sector, who are sometimes at the sharp end when example of how the Government have got their numbers it comes to serving the public. They do a very important completely wrong? Those who can afford to pay the job. I recently met members from across the north-east most are in fact paying far less. who raised exactly the points he is making about insecurity 1449 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1450 at work and the need to tackle zero-hours contracts. process. We will look closely at the Conservative party This is a major area of concern, and retail workers in manifesto. The Conservatives have made some grand particular feel that the Government are failing to act. promises about tax which will cost at least £10 billion to implement, even in the final year of the next Parliament, Chris Leslie: The retail sector is edging towards greater yet we have not seen a dicky-bird—even in the Budget and greater insecurity, as companies feel that the only figures—on how they will be paid for. I am looking way to make that extra margin is by eroding standards forward to reading that chapter in its manifesto. of contract security for many of their work force. In Geraint Davies: I mentioned that low productivity that context, I have to reiterate the position of those of was driving down wages. Is not the point of tuition fees us on the Opposition Benches: someone who works policy to increase the number of qualified people, regular hours deserves a regular contract. That is why productivity and national wealth, to end the deterrence we intend to abolish exploitative zero-hours contracts. for going to university, to stop people having credit ratings that prevent them from buying houses and to Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): Following on stop them not wanting a pay increase in case they have from the previous intervention, in Scotland we are to pay back more of their fees? Surely this makes seeing an abuse of apprenticeship payments to young economic sense, while the Conservative party’s unsustainable people in the retail sector. There are a lot skills involved economics of low pay and austerity is sending us into in working in retail, but to call three months working in bankruptcy. a shop an apprenticeship undervalues them. That does, however, help the Scottish National party to massage Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend knows that the change the figures. from £9,000 to £6,000 would make an appreciable difference. Of course, it is still a significant fee, but we will only Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend should bear that in mind ever make promises we know can be kept and that are when we hear Ministers trumpeting their apprenticeship fully funded. I would love to do more on many other tax numbers in aggregate, because there is always a story issues, but given the state in which the Chancellor will behind them. We need genuine apprenticeships to help be leaving the public finances in only a matter of weeks, the next generation obtain skills and career assistance, we must show students that we understand the burden rather than what has been happening: the re-badging of debt on them and the nation. The Government never of many apprenticeship programmes, existing training appreciated that so many students would never be able courses and other arrangements that have been rebranded to pay back their debts and that the bill would have to to allow tax support for applications for apprenticeships. be picked up by the taxpayer sooner or later. The Bill is not just divisive and unfair but a missed As well as measures on tuition fees, the Bill should opportunity. There are several omissions. It is not just have contained a proper bank bonus tax for the starter that the Chancellor could barely drag from his lips jobs that many young people who are having trouble those three little letters, NHS, which I think got one finding employment need. mention in the Budget—Agincourt got twice as many. Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): Will the We should have had action to help the next generation, hon. Gentleman clarify his statement about the Government for example by reducing tuition fees to tackle the burden not realising how many people could not pay back their of debt facing students. Students graduate typically tuition fees loan? If tuition fees were reduced to £6,000, with £44,000 of debt, which is a burden not just on under his party’s policy, at what salary would people those individuals but on the national finances. Government start to pay that back? Members should be very scared by some of the projections. Owing to their inability to collect tuition fees from some Chris Leslie: The arrangements for the rate of payback students, barely half of all tuition fees will be collected, were set out in the policy documents we published, but which is adding to the national debt in the hundreds of the hon. Gentleman should know that on current billions of pounds. That needs to be tackled. projections, by 2030, which is only 15 years away, £281 billion is expected to be added to the national debt Mr Gauke: Will the hon. Gentleman explain how his now that we have reached the proportion of 49% of tuition fees policy will be paid for, given that his party people who are incapable of paying back their tuition has been clear that it supports all the measures in the fees. It might have been a miscalculation by the Department Budget, including the personal savings allowance, for for Business, Innovation and Skills, so perhaps he could example? blame the Liberal Democrat Business Secretary—that might be the function the Liberal Democrats fulfil—but whether it was the Business Secretary’s miscalculation Chris Leslie: We are delighted that the Government or the Treasury’s miscalculation, I would urge hon. took a shine to our proposals for pension tax relief Members just to take a look at the projections. changes—I suppose that imitation is the best form of flattery. We will stick with our policy to reduce tuition Jake Berry rose— fees to £6,000, and we will set out in our manifesto, in a matter of days and weeks, how it will be funded. Still at Chris Leslie: I want to make some progress—I have this late hour, the full costings in our manifesto are several pages still to get through and I want other available for the Office for Budget Responsibility to Members to contribute. audit and verify—if only the Minister had shaken my The Bill should have contained a bank bonus tax for hand on that. I offered him the hand of friendship—was starter jobs and measures to scrap the bedroom tax. it on the “Daily Politics” the other day?—but sadly he Given today’s timetable, however, I must move rapidly could not do it. It is important that we have fully costed to some specific issues in the Bill and ask the Minister and funded manifestos and that all parties engage in the some questions. It is not just that we have general 1451 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1452

[Chris Leslie] Chris Leslie: That is interesting. This sort of postcode lottery has afflicted many people, so my hon. Friend objections to the 45p higher rate of tax for earnings makes an important point. I now want to move on. over £150,000; we have anxieties about their plans for a This Finance Bill contains a series of measures relating married couples allowance that will benefit only one to vehicles and emissions. On clauses 7 to 9, will the third of married couples and only one sixth of families Minister take some time in his response to explain with children, and although the increases in the personal the direction of travel—if he will pardon the pun—in allowance are a concession, rather than leap straight to the differential for different types of vehicle and different a 20p basic rate, it would be better to start with a 10p years of what is charged for ultra-low emission vehicles? rate, as a fairer and more effective way to ease people on Our reading is that there is a differential of 4% for the lower incomes into income tax. financial year 2017-18 and then 3% for 2018-19. If there is an explanation for that, I am not clear what it would (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): My be. We would be grateful if the Minister could seek hon. Friend makes an important case about the bedroom some inspiration over the next hour or so and help us tax. The average cost of the bedroom tax is £700 per out with that. Similarly, why are the Government using annum, and across Greater Manchester, 28,000 people the Bill to remove the incentive for companies to provide have been affected. In my constituency alone, 3,038 zero-emission vans over the next Parliament? Again, I families—the highest figure in the land—suffer from it, cannot understand the logic behind the provisions as it whereas in Witney in , 300 families suffer appears in the explanatory notes, so it would aid the from it. This has been of huge detriment to northern process of debate if the Minister could clarify it for us. regions—across the country but mainly northern regions. Government Members have no understanding of its In clauses 13 and 14, the Government are legislating impact on our constituents. to protect two particular groups, carers and ministers of religion, who may suffer as a result of the Bill’s abolition of the £8,500 exemption on what are known as “benefits Chris Leslie: This is always the dilemma. Do Government in kind”. That is obviously welcome for those who Members not understand—is it just a question of benefit from it, but will the Minister reassure us and ignorance?—or have they just turned a blind eye? My confirm that adequate due diligence has been applied to hon. Friend has been a diligent campaigner against the ensure that no other categories of low-paid worker bedroom tax and has managed to articulate very successfully could be adversely affected by this change? The provisions the harm and difficulties that people have encountered, are very specific in naming the particular types of particularly those with disabilities who need the extra occupation, but I always slightly worry when particular space in the house. Again, that should have been covered types of job have to be named that other forms of in the Bill. occupation or employment might be affected. I would like to know more about the process the Treasury Mr Love: Does my hon. Friend agree that, given that pursued in framing the clauses in that particular way. such an iniquitous tax raises so little money for the The Bill brings forward several clauses relating to tax Exchequer, it would be simple for the Government to avoidance. Everybody knows that the Government’s abolish it tomorrow? record on this is atrocious, given that the tax gap increased by £1 billion to £34 billion last year. We also Chris Leslie: Many studies suggest that it costs more know that Lord Green, the champion of the Tories on than has been raised. Of course, the Government knew many of these issues, has his own track record at HSBC. how unpopular the bedroom tax would be and came up In this context, any moves to tackle extreme tax avoidance with their “discretionary fund” to allow local authorities and evasion are welcome—clause 33, for example, provides to ameliorate the impact, but it has not been enough for anti-avoidance measures on carried-forward losses and has certainly not been extended to many people and there are provisions on entrepreneurs’ relief—but who need it. My hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe we have some questions that it would be helpful for the and Sale East (Mike Kane) will also note that there has Minister to answer. been no guarantee that the fund will continue into future years. The Government are hoping that this will Clause 12 deals with the abolition of the dispensation go away and that nobody will notice, but our constituents regime. Is there a danger that, during the course of the will notice. simplification of expense reimbursement—a principle we support—some opportunities for abuse might arise? For example, a flat-rate expenses allowance could lead Mike Kane rose— to some avoidance issues. Do the Government have some figures to show the amount of taxes collected Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend feels strongly about through PAYE and the benefit audit from current this, so I will give way one more time. companies? We support the principle of clause 20 on intermediaries Mike Kane: I do feel strongly about it. I can cite, with and gift aid, encouraging charitable giving and making his approval, the case of Mr Gunning from my constituency, gift aid a more attractive prospect by removing the need which has five wards in Labour Manchester and three to send off the gift aid forms through the post. Donating in Tory Trafford. He lives in Tory Trafford and was not online is obviously welcome, but can the Government given the discretionary payment. If he had lived in confirm how they will prevent rogue intermediaries Labour Manchester, he would have got the discretionary from seeking to profit from the gift aid market? How payment, although by now it would have come to will the Government ensure sufficient understanding of an end. this so-called “tax to cover” principle? 1453 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1454

Do the changes outlined in clauses 26 and 27 undermine that the Treasury might have further legislative proposals, the original anti-avoidance intentions of the late interest but can the Government address the concerns raised by rule? Could these provisions be rendered in any way the Chartered Institute of Taxation about the complexity redundant by the ongoing BEPS—base erosion and of the new rules and the perceived unfairness in how profit shifting—process? Will the capping of group they apply to people temporarily on assignments overseas interest deductions be covered? Labour Members want who would not normally be required to pay a CGT to hear that proper attention has been paid to this charge on their main residence? international process and that we are not unduly jumping On the simplification measures, there are questions the gun. about the correct penalty regime for the new reporting We have questions about the clause 28 restrictions on requirements in the Finance Act 2014. Removing the research and development relief, whereby the costs of need for a tribunal process is one such arrangement, but materials incorporated in products that are then sold there might be consequences from rushing through this commercially will not be eligible for that relief. Have the legislation. Government considered any exemptions for companies My shadow DEFRA colleagues would certainly want selling items that they had not intended to sell—for to ask the Government why they have not done more on cash-flow reasons, for example? What will be the impact flooding and flood prevention. The tax change to encourage on liquidation of a company? Would its R and D private investment in flood prevention is certainly welcome, credit-containing assets be devalued? but is it not more of a fig leaf to cover the Government’s Before leaving my assessment of the anti-avoidance failures properly to support flood defences? The measures, I want to draw the House’s attention particularly de-prioritising of flood defence investment that we saw to part 3 on diverted profits tax, which tries to deal with at the start of this Parliament will be a legacy that many artificially contrived arrangements. Opposition Members communities will not forget. want arrangements to work effectively, but we worry On the new tax reliefs for film, TV programmes and about the haste and laxity of the drafting. In his opening video games, the Minister will know of the history of remarks, the Minister introduced this new tax on diverted scams, tax shelters and bogus arrangements that have profits through counteracting arrangements by which been exploited in the past. Some have been convicted of foreign companies exploit the permanent establishment abusing those arrangements. Will he assure us that rules and prevent companies from creating tax advantages proper due diligence has been done to prevent some of by using transactions or entities that lack economic those abuses from happening again? substance. We were told that the draft clauses published in December would be replaced, but the first we saw of Finally, let me deal with the measures relating to the the new iteration of the provisions was when the Bill oil and gas industry. My hon. Friend the Member for was printed yesterday. That provides insufficient time to Birmingham, Ladywood () wrote to scrutinise and assess such a large number of highly the Minister about the impact of the Bill on the safeguarding complex and potentially important measures. This, I of the future of the North sea oil industry. The recent fear, is a direct result of the rushed timetable with which fall in global oil prices has put a number of jobs at risk we have been presented today. in the sector, which is one of Scotland’s greatest success These are my questions to the Minister. What is the stories, and its current predicament requires a long-term expected impact on the base erosion and profit shifting solution. process? What challenges is he expecting on the basis of We welcome the measures that will cut the supplementary EU law and how will he address them? Why is it still charge and petroleum revenue tax, which were outlined showing such a low yield in the Red Book, given that in Labour’s “oil industry roadmap” in January. However, the UK turnover of the multinational tech giants is so we have also consistently called for greater certainty for significant? What research has the Department undertaken the sector, particularly because of the long-term nature into the effectiveness of the proposed enhanced civil of much of its investment. A simpler investment allowance penalties for offshore tax evasion and will the increase should be delivered, as long as the industry can be improve compliance? assured that the transition from the current regime will We welcome the measure on country-by-country not cause any interruption in investment. reporting and common reporting standard issues, but The Finance Bill should be establishing a mechanism the Office for Budget Responsibility has labelled the for joint reporting by the Treasury and the finance costings and related aspects as “highly uncertain”. I directorate to the United Kingdom and Scottish Parliaments understand that the wording in the draft clause that we on the fiscal risks of volatility, and how they will be have seen would enable public disclosure of the country- managed in the future to maximise recovery from the by-country reporting rules, if the OECD updated its UK continental shelf. I also urge the Minister to consider guidance to allow for it. Is that still the case for the the need for a full assessment, in the round, of the clause before us today? Will the Government push for impacts of tax reliefs and rates public disclosure or is the Minister trying to allow the My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood disclosure only secretly for the Revenue authorities? will shortly have an opportunity to talk about other Public disclosure is where we should be; if not, why not? changes that we feel are necessary. Let me say now, The clauses that extend capital gains tax arrangements however, that we should like to see a review of the to foreign individuals when they dispose of UK residential impact of the rise in VAT in recent years, and of the properties are welcome, but again the way in which the changing of the top rate of tax from 50p to 45p. I hope Government have brought them forward at the last that we can extract some more data and information minute means that we have little opportunity for proper from the Treasury. We should be finding ways of helping scrutiny. It is worrying to those outside this place to see small firms with a cut in business rates, rather than attempts to pass such provisions in this way.We understand always prioritising a small number of larger companies, 1455 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1456

[Chris Leslie] Ian Swales: As I said a moment ago, I do share some of that concern. The new diverted profits tax is quite as the Government are doing. Their priority is reducing complicated, and I agree that introducing it after so corporation tax rather than cutting business rates in little time is risky. However, I also think that it is a very 2015-16 and freezing them in 2016-17, which we think necessary tax. Far too much of our economic activity in would be preferable. the United Kingdom has been booked elsewhere, and We should have a Finance Bill that deals in the round too many of our profits are being shoved elsewhere. I with many of the problems that our country faces: the therefore welcome the overall measures, and hope that living standards that have been squeezed, and the fact they can be made to work. that wages have been surpassed by prices for such a long I welcome the increase in the bank levy. It is clearly time during the present Parliament. Our public services more sensible than taxing bank bonuses at a total rate require revenues to help them to serve our constituents— of 115%, which is what I understand the Opposition to particularly the national health service, which we have be proposing. That clearly would not work, and I think to conclude is at risk because of the Government’s that their proposal shows a lack of competence. I extreme plans for cuts. Those plans go way beyond welcome the fact that the rich are paying more. The simply focusing on the deficit, as the Government have hon. Member for Nottingham East used the emotive also done. The Office for Budget Responsibility have word “obscenity”. I think that there was something of talked of an obscenity in the fact that people on the minimum “a sharp acceleration in the pace of implied real cuts to day-to-day wage were having to pay about £1,000 a year in tax spending on public services”. under the last Government. The Liberal Democrats’ At the general election in, I believe, 43 days’ time, the priority is to change that, and to raise the tax threshold. country will have a clear choice between the failing Our original target was £10,000, but I am delighted to plans, the failing Budget and the failing Finance Bill say that it is now on the way to £11,000 as a result of that we are debating today, and a better plan to put our work in this Government. working people first and to save our national health service. We will raise living standards by increasing the The rich are paying much more in tax. Their income minimum wage to £8 an hour, and we will try our best tax rate was held at 40% for 13 years by the last to fund 25 hours of free child care for working parents Government. When we came to office, the rate of capital with three and four-year-olds by means of changes in gains tax was 18%, lower than even the basic rate of the bank levy. Our plan will help to transform our NHS income tax; it is now 28%. People are allowed to put a with a “time to care” fund, which we will support by quarter of a million pounds a year into pension schemes asking those who are fortunate enough to live in properties and receive full tax relief on them: the allowance is now that are worth at least £2 million to chip in a little more, £40,000. The lifetime allowance has been reduced again, and it will ensure that we balance the books fairly by to £1 million. I welcome all those measures. I am not reversing the approach of the Government parties. That going to become involved in a long debate about VAT, would be a better Finance Bill and a better Budget, and but it is worth noting that the VAT on a new Ferrari is I look forward to seeing it under a future Labour £50,000. The idea that it is all paid by pensioners is Government. clearly not right when we take account of the goods that are not subject to the standard rate of VAT. The Budget raised stamp duty on property, and 2.3 pm introduced yet more measures to deal with avoidance. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): For someone who did not Of course, there was industrial-scale avoidance under feel that we had been given enough time today, the hon. the last Government, and many cases are still coming to Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) made an light, having arisen before 2010. I welcome the moves incredibly long speech. on the cost of living and on alcohol taxes, which support many of our important industries. I must declare an I welcome the measures in the Budget, especially interest, as a cider drinker who greatly welcomes the those benefiting business, and I am not the only one. At reduction in cider duty. Overall, there is an inconvenient a lunch event on Friday, I spoke to members of the truth for the Opposition. Inequality has narrowed under North East Chamber of commerce, and they also welcomed this Government, whereas it widened under the last the Budget—particularly the measures involving oil Government. People are better off than they were in and gas, which are very important for manufacturing 2010, and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has been industry and contractors in the north-east. The moves saying so since January. The £1,600 figure was never on corporation tax and support for business are clearly about the total; it was about average incomes, which welcome. I do, however, agree with the hon. Gentleman have, of course, been affected by the huge fall in youth that there is concern about the speed with which the unemployment, the huge rise in the number of diverted profits tax is being introduced. I congratulate apprenticeships, and the huge fall in bank bonuses. The the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills)—who Opposition’s stance does not bear scrutiny. has just left the Chamber—on triggering a Westminster Hall debate on the subject, during which we scrutinised I have been asked to be brief. Let me end by saying it a little further. that my part of the world has gained huge benefits under the present Government. We have benefited from Mr Love: There is significant concern, indeed alarm, the regional growth fund, from the local enterprise out there among some of the tax professionals and partnership—which is highly successful—and from the accountancy bodies about the lack of adequate scrutiny. fact that this Government have spent five times more Does the hon. Gentleman share that concern? on capital investment in the Tees Valley than the last 1457 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1458

Government did in five years. In the last year, everybody has to pay it, whatever goods they buy; whether unemployment in my constituency has fallen by 781. It they are a pensioner, a student, in work, a lord or a is still too high, but we are heading in the right direction. duke, they have to pay VAT. It does not matter what My party will support the Bill today. they earn. That is why VAT is a regressive tax. The Government have forgotten who pays the bills 2.9 pm around here. It is not the millionaires. It is not the business people. It is the people on the ground. I have Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): Let me begin by nothing against anybody earning big money; I have no expressing my disappointment that there is to be no problem with success or aspiration, or ambition or Public Bill Committee. I have served on every single one achieving anything. However, if we give a tax cut to the in the present Parliament. I do not know what I did very rich in society, they will employ accountants who wrong in the Whips Office, but I feel that I am missing will hide the money, but if we give a tax cut to people in out on something. the middle, they will spend it in the shops and businesses I congratulate the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian and get the high streets moving. That is not what is Swales), who is, of course, a Liberal Democrat. Following happening. That is not the reality on the ground. the embarrassment of the Chief Secretary standing on We can talk all we want, but the simple fact is there is the steps of the Treasury with his Fisher-Price lunch a problem with the word “conservative”. It means preserve box, announcing a Liberal Democrat Budget the day or conserve—to conserve a way of life that never existed. after the real one that he said he had signed off, I admire If we want examples of how the Conservatives constantly any Liberal Democrat who can stand up now and look back to a golden age that never existed, we need defend the Government’s policies. only listen to the references to Agincourt. This is what I I want to say something about the Finance Bill and say: if we are looking back constantly, we are not the Budget. This is the truth as I see it: for one hour, the moving forward. Chancellor, simply because a general election is on the The NHS is in crisis but the Budget says nothing way, changed his tune from that of the Conservative about that most important public service in Britain. party conference in October, when he told us swingeing The Tories last week confirmed plans for extreme spending cuts were on the way and we should prepare for an age cuts in the three years after the election, which will put of austerity. Now, 44 days before a general election, he our NHS at risk. tells us, like a latter day Harold Macmillan, that we’ve “never had it so good.” Ian Swales: I always enjoy listening to the hon. Those of us who are historians remember what happened Gentleman’s speeches, but he ought to note that the after the complacency of that Conservative Government Budget included a huge £1.25 billion for mental health of the 1950s and the eventual devaluation of the pound spending in the NHS. in the 1960s. The problem is that for vast swathes of constituencies like mine across the country which are Chris Evans: I welcome any money that goes towards trying to deal with the post-industrial age the Government mental health, and I think anybody suffering from a did not offer any hope or optimism for the future. mental health issue would welcome that as well, but I Families in my constituency are £1,600 worse off than have to say this to the hon. Gentleman: I am fed up, they were five years ago; that is the truth, and I challenge especially as a Welsh MP and a Welshman, at the way any Government Member to come to Islwyn, walk the Welsh NHS has been attacked by this Government. down the streets with me and go to the food bank in It is a shame because when the Government attack the Risca where I was taken the other day. I could not get NHS in Wales, they are attacking the nurses, the doctors, through the front door because so many people there the cleaners, the porters—everybody who works so were in need. Some might say they were there for kicks, hard to provide the best possible health care to our but so many of them just needed help with benefits or patients. the health service—they were there because there was nowhere else to go. That is a sad indictment of this Government’s policies. Charlie Elphicke: The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate and powerful speech highlighting why it is Islwyn is a constituency dealing with the post-industrial such a travesty that he is not at the forefront of the age. Under the last Labour Government we attracted Leader of the Opposition’s team, as he should have investment, but the problem is that this Conservative- been. Does he join me in regretting the fact that the led Government have created two Britains. There is the Leader of the Opposition seems to be planning a jobs Britain of the affluent, who are enjoying a tax cut tax were Labour to get elected at the general election? because we are in the grip of an economic theory that failed and only brought about deficits in the ’80s. That continues with the tax cut from 50p to 45p. We also see Chris Evans: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind a different kind of Britain, however: a Britain of people comments, and I have to say that over the years that we gathered around the kitchen tables worried about paying have served together in this House he has always been the bills—about how they are going to pay for the courteous to me and I count him as one of my friends mortgage, how they are going to pay for the rent. These from the other side. are the people who deserve the tax cut. It is all very well the Prime Minister committing Jake Berry: The dark side. today at Prime Minister’s questions not to put VAT up. He made that commitment before the last general election, Chris Evans: Yes; I thank the hon. Gentleman for yet VAT went up. It is only ever the Tory party that puts that, and admire his cheek in trying to get me into VAT up. The reason why VAT is regressive is because trouble. I shall move on quickly. 1459 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1460

[Chris Evans] complexity. I put it down simply to the way in which Whitehall operates; our bureaucracy is geared to the Working people know they are worse off than they creation of legislation and of taxation measures. To were five years ago. take a perfect example, the Treasury is full of people who are there to guide and advise the Government on Jake Berry: The hon. Gentleman must accept that the latest taxation measures. Up against them we have a five years ago the personal allowance was just over tax simplification project that consists of three nominated £5,500, and after this Budget it will be in excess of officials and a few civil servants. It is an unfair game; it £10,000. That is an enormous tax break, putting money is impossible for the tax simplification project to counter into the pockets of all our constituents, some of them the further moves being undertaken towards complexity on the minimum wage, some of them on the lowest pay. in our taxation system. It requires government—I include Surely he must welcome that when he talks about government on both sides—to address the real need, working people. look carefully at whether all the taxation measures in our code are necessary, and take appropriate steps to Chris Evans: I would welcome it had VAT not been reduce the number of codings and to make our taxation hiked up from 17.5% to 20%, which has affected many system simpler. people and squeezed their wages down. The second issue is avoidance and evasion. The I do not have long left—[Interruption.] IhopeIhave Chancellor has said that his way of saving money over longer in this place, but I do not have long left in terms the next Parliament, should the Conservatives be re-elected, of my speech. The people I speak to did not want the is to pencil in £5 billion-worth of reductions in avoidance Chancellor to present an image of something that they and evasion. The first thing that has to be said is that were not experiencing. The statistics may speak differently, that is an incredibly ambitious target. HMRC’s projection but for the many families I speak to who are worried for the tax gap is currently about £35 billion, out of about their job security and jobs being offshored, that which about £4 billion is avoidance and £3 billion is was not their reality. evasion. So the total for avoidance and evasion, according I want to end my last speech in this Session by to HMRC, is about £7 billion, yet we are being asked to thanking everybody on both sides of this House whom believe that the Chancellor can deliver £5 billion through I have come to know for their various kindnesses and tackling evasion and avoidance in the next Parliament. friendships. I have been immensely proud and honoured That is a very tall order and we need to look very to represent the Welsh valleys that I was born in and carefully at his proposals. The Office for Budget grew up in, and I thank everybody for their help and Responsibility has looked carefully at the suggestions advice over the years. being made, both in the Budget and in the consultation document released the day afterwards, and it can find only just over £3 billion-worth of savings. It has attached 2.18 pm to those £3.1 billion savings either a “very high risk” or Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I want to a “high risk” as to whether there will be delivery. So a make some brief comments on a number of issues that gap is already opening up between what the Chancellor have come up in the debate so far: tax simplification, has promised and what he can deliver, and the OBR is where the impression is being given that these measures suggesting that the task may be very difficult for the will simplify taxation; avoidance and evasion, where Government because of the high-risk nature of this. We there are major problems in delivering on the commitments can all recall the Swiss bank fiasco; it was suggested the Government have given; welfare reform, where the that £3 billion to £4 billion would be raised, but we now Government’s track record is appalling; and the impact have a much more realistic figure, much below that. In across the income distribution, where it is being suggested order that that does not happen again, we ask that the that those on the top incomes are most affected by the Chancellor to be much more ruthless and realistic in his Budgets over recent years, when actually it is quite appraisals about what can be saved by tackling avoidance different. and evasion—it certainly is not the £5 billion that he First, let me join in the chorus of concern about the has suggested in this Budget. lack of scrutiny under this wash-up process. There have Similarly, on welfare reform the Chancellor is suggesting been many comments in the media today from various that he wishes to save £12 billion. I will discuss how he is experts—taxation bodies, chartered accountants and suggesting it will be saved later, but first let me indulge a others—all expressing concern that, given the level of little in recent history. Over the past five years the complexity involved in this Finance Bill, we simply will Chancellor has instituted policy changes that he said not get adequate scrutiny by rushing through all its would deliver £21 billion-worth of savings, yet according stages in one day. I share that concern, and I am pleased to the Institute for Fiscal Studies the actual reduction in to see that it is a concern that is recognised across the the welfare bill—the actual cash saved—was £2.5 billion. House. I would have preferred a much simpler Bill that So there is an enormous hole in his accounting. He is included only a limited number of provisions. When we suggesting he will save £12 billion between now and return and there is a Labour Government, we can have 2020, but he has indicated only where £3 billion of that a Finance (No. 3) Bill, enacting proper measures to deal will be saved—there is another £9 billion to go. We hope with the problems in this country. that over the period of the general election he will give I wish to discuss four issues and the impact this the electorate some idea of how he is going to save such Budget and previous Budgets since 2010 have had. The an enormous sum, recognising his total failure to save first issue is tax simplification. It would be wrong to the money in this Parliament. His track record is not suggest that our taxation code is not getting more good. Given all the other imponderables—the things complex, and this Bill will add significantly to the 1461 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1462 that are not under Government control that can affect and cannot get a house, and are scared of moving into a the welfare budget—it is difficult to see how he can save higher pay bracket because it pushes up their repayments. that amount of money. Sadly, the Tories are creating a two-nation Britain. That leads us to the elephant in the room: if the One nation will be the better off, who, lucky for them, Chancellor does not save money from avoidance and own their own house, can get their sons and daughters evasion or from welfare reform, where is he going to into university and pass on money for them to put make up the difference in order to deliver the £30 billion- down a deposit on a property. There are others who worth of savings? That is where we come back to VAT. may be equally or even more capable of going to That is where the Conservatives’ track record shows university and of boosting the productivity in our collective from the past, and that is where we will be scrutinising economy but who are being stopped from getting houses carefully the comments that are made. Tax rises are on in the future. We are at a turning point now. The party the horizon. I am being asked to cut my remarks short that gets elected will determine whether we have a more so I do not have time to deal with the distributional unequal or a less unequal future. I very much want us impact, but let me just say that the Budget will not all to pull together as one nation to invest in the future. affect the highest paid but will affect those in the two The Conservatives have this massively political Budget lowest deciles of payment more than anyone else. It is a profile, which has been described as a “rollercoaster”. regressive, retrograde Budget, as previous Budgets have Deep and savage cuts were going to take us back to the been. 1930s, but because that was pointed out by the BBC, the This is my last speech in the Chamber. The experience Office for Budget Responsibility and the Institute for has been great and I have met a wonderful group of Fiscal Studies, an adjustment was made. Bank shares people, on both sides of the House. I have enjoyed it were sold off and oil prices went down so that the immensely, and I retire having said my piece on this public service time machine was moved back only to the Budget. year 2000. None the less, we all saw the Tories in their true oils. They were happy to make those savage cuts until the BBC highlighted what they were doing. Then 2.27 pm they said, “Oh no, we’re not going to do that.” But there Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): It is a will still be savage cuts until the final year of the next great pleasure and privilege to follow my hon. Friend Parliament, 2019-2020, when there will be a sudden the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), who has been a acceleration in public spending—the biggest spending distinguished Member of the House, particularly through increase for 10 years—presumably to try to get Boris his service on the Treasury Committee, which has added Johnson elected as the next Tory Prime Minister. That is enormous insights into the deliberations of successive probably what will happen in the unfortunate event of Governments. It is a great joy to follow my good friend the Tories getting in again in some strange alliance with and colleague. the UK Independence party, which would be a disaster for Britain. I just want to make a few remarks. The budgetary process in the immediate run-up to the election has We must strike a balance between trying to achieve been very much a political stunt. The first thing to deal economic growth and having to balance the books, with is the illusion—or delusion—that there has been instead of scrabbling around trying to decide which economic success and turnaround under the Conservatives. poor people to clobber. As my hon. Friend the Member That is simply not the case; it is simply not borne out by for Edmonton pointed out, welfare cuts such as the the facts. The national debt is about £1.4 trillion—up bedroom tax raised only £400 million, which is small 44%. Reference is made to the deficit and how much the change compared with the numbers that we are talking debt is going up, but of course the current Government about. Two thirds of the people hit by that tax are have borrowed more in five years than Labour did in disabled. The cuts to tax credits are hitting people with 13 years—and we had to bail out the banks. The children who are trying to work. It is ridiculous to try to Government have lost the triple A rating. As I pointed squeeze more and more out of the poorest to make ends out earlier, the number of people earning more than meet. Clearly, it is right that the richest pay more, £20,000 is down by 800,000. There is a reliance on a whether those with more than £2 million pay the mansion fudging of the facts; this is a “fudge it” Budget, to make tax— up for the fact that we have more and more low-paid people who cannot make a contribution towards the Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): They do pay revenues in a sustainable way.Meanwhile, the Government more. continuously put up the tax threshold and say, “Who’s going to disagree with that?”, knowing everyone is Geraint Davies: They need to pay lots more, not a bit scared to disagree. But that is the management of more. Of course some of the very rich are paying more, irresponsibility, because the money simply is not coming but that is because they are getting richer and richer on in to pay the bills. massive pay awards. They are earning so much more So what we need is not a spat about tax and spend, than anyone else, and the situation is getting out of but a serious consideration of how we generate productivity control and growth, in order to have higher wages and a more sustainable plan for the future. Obviously, part of that Charlie Elphicke rose— was the debate about tuition fees and about enabling people to go, without fear, to university, so that we Geraint Davies: I will not give way to the rover from could get higher productivity and the students would Dover, thank you very much. He is known as the Dover not be hobbled by massive debt throughout their lives. soul. [Laughter.] Obviously, that was the highlight of Such debt can mean that they cannot get a credit rating my speech. 1463 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1464

[Geraint Davies] 2.36 pm Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): Finally, I wish to comment on the rabbits that have I have only a short time in which to speak, so let me been pulled out of the hat. Today, we were told, “Oh, start by saying that we have heard some very good there will be no VAT increases.” Is the Prime Minister speeches today. The debate was opened powerfully by going to commit himself to that in his five-year plan? A the shadow Chief Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member couple of days ago, we heard that another £46 billion for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie). My hon. Friends was being spent on various railway connections in the the Members for Islwyn (Chris Evans), for Edmonton north. There seems to be a desperate attempt to make (Mr Love) and for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) all things up on the hoof. spoke well. The rover from Dover will live long in our I do not necessarily disagree with this devolution of memories and trumps, I think, “Dover soul”, which is economic and service power to the north—to Manchester. not really up to the mark in quite the same way. We did that in Wales, but it was done on the back of an I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Act of Parliament and a referendum. In their haste to Edmonton who made his valedictory speech today. I am generate higher ratings at the polls, the Government are sorry that he had to cut his remarks short, but I wish to doing anything, including undermining the constitution put it on the record that he has had a very distinguished and the economic balance and fragmenting the NHS in period of service in this House. It has always been a the process. Their recent track record, therefore, has not pleasure to sit in debates on Treasury matters and to been impressive. The future looks bleak. I very much hear him speak. I have learned a huge amount from hope that we can focus on increasing growth. We should him. His service on the Treasury Committee has been to consider tuition fees, a cast iron promise to stay in the his credit, and he has a record of which he can be EU, which is so important for inward investment, and proud. The House and his constituents will miss him procurement. The reality is that when it comes to greatly. procurement we should look at favouring, if we can, small British companies that pay British tax—corporation As my hon. Friend the shadow Chief Secretary said tax and income tax—rather than giving the work to in his opening remarks, the Budget is as fundamental as foreign companies that do not pay our tax and do not it gets when it comes to the business of the Government, contribute towards growth. and the Finance Act—the legislation that enacts most of that Budget—is also fundamental. But, effectively, Charlie Elphicke rose— the vast majority of this Bill will go through without debate. I confess that the negotiations into which I Geraint Davies: I will finally give way to the hon. entered with the Financial Secretary last week was my Gentleman. first experience of the wash-up. Although I acknowledge the hard work done by his officials and even by him in Charlie Elphicke: I thank the hon. Gentleman for terms of the tenor with which he approached those being so generous in giving way to the rover from discussions, neither of us can pretend that this is a Dover. I gently point out that the reason why we cannot satisfactory way in which to make very complex taxation show a preference towards our own businesses in matters legislation. In particular, we know that outside of procurement is to do with the European Union, commentators have an eye today on the diverted profits which he loves so much. tax. The Opposition have to make a judgment call based on often very little, or last minute.com, information. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): For example, we have to judge whether blocking something Order. Believe it or not, that discussion is outside the now so that we can do it better later would give a signal scope of the Budget resolutions. But given that the hon. that it will not happen at all and so cause uncertainty or Gentleman had just acquired a nickname—although I whether an appropriate reassurance can be made. will not be addressing him as such—I decided to allow I know about the lively discussions outside the House him to intervene. Mr Davies, I should be grateful if you about the diverted profits tax. Let me just say that we returned to the Finance Bill. support the thrust of what the Government intend to do, but the Bill was being drafted at the end of last Geraint Davies: Clearly, I accept the ruling on the week, when the Minister and I were trying to conclude rover from Dover. I was simply making the point that, our negotiations. That is unsatisfactory, because the Bill in our growth strategy, we should be encouraging small is complex. In our first Finance Bill when we are in businesses. In Wales, something like 60% of procurement government, we will seek to remedy any defects that goes to small businesses, half of which are based in prevent that measure from being both effective and Wales. In England, the comparable figure is something strong. I am happy to let it through not because I think like 25%. I am suggesting that, through encouragement that it is a completely 100% foolproof bit of work, but rather than breaking EU rules on competition, we because I fear that the Tories in opposition might not be should make things easier for small businesses in order quite so keen to see the measure on the statute book. I to help growth, tax, and supply chains. We should do wanted to ensure that we got it passed, and then we that, rather than just say, “What can we do?” Labour could fix any issues later. increased this economy by 40% in the 10 years to 2008, Although we will support many of the measures now before the banking crisis. going through—later we will debate the measures that we think are missing—we think that the Bill is a missed Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr Davies, you are opportunity, as my three hon. Friends who spoke from way out of scope now, so we will go to the concluding the Back Benches all said. The Government could and remarks of this debate, because we are running out of should have taken the opportunity really to start making time. a difference to the lives of our constituents across the 1465 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1466 country, but they failed to do so. Only a Labour arrangement. That will stop employers artificially lowering Government and a Labour Finance Bill immediately their national insurance contribution bills by replacing after the general election will start putting those matters some of their employees’ salaries with expenses. right. Clauses 13 and 14 implement recommendations set out by the Office of Tax Simplification. On clause 20, 2.40 pm which relates to gift aid, more details will be set out in The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): regulations, which of course will improve donor It is a great pleasure to close this debate on Second understanding of tax to cover. On clause 28, I should Reading. I would like to thank everyone who has spoken like to reassure the hon. Gentleman that it applies to for their contributions, particularly the hon. Member expenditure on consumable items only if the item is for Edmonton (Mr Love), who has served this House transferable in the ordinary course of the relevant person’s with such distinction. I wish him well. We have had an business. interesting debate. I should like to set it in the context of Flooding was mentioned. In the spending review the the Chancellor’s Budget last week. Government committed an unprecedented £2.3 billion A number of points about living standards have been to tackle flooding and coastal erosion. In addition, raised. I reiterate that living standard will be higher in clause 35 supports business contributions to alleviate 2015 than they were in 2010, real household disposable the impact of flooding. income per capita will grow at its fastest rate since 2001 The hon. Gentleman also mentioned clause 29, which and, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, families sets out film tax relief opportunities. The structure of are now set to be £900 better off this year than they the current relief is completely different from that introduced were previously. That is all in line with our plan to fix under the previous Government’s scheme, which was the British economy, take us out of the dreadful mess prone to abuse, so there are no issues of avoidance in we inherited back in 2010 and, quite rightly, give the this case. He also mentioned zero-emission bands. British public the recovery they deserve. Stakeholders have asked for rates to be announced four The Bill marks the next step in that plan. It puts more or five years ahead, and the Government have been money in people’s pockets, delivers further growth and committed to announcing rates three years in advance, puts fairness, which has been mentioned, at the heart of which is why we have done so. our recovery. We continue to put fairness at the heart of Let me move on to the whole issue of tax the recovery through our increase in the personal allowance. avoidance. The UK is demonstrating further leadership We will take people on the national minimum wage and by implementing the diverted profits tax, which is also working up to 30 hours a week out of income tax consistent with the principle of aligning taxing rights to altogether by 2017. That is about rewarding work and economic activity. The Bill quite rightly ensures that raising living standards, which is what this Government everybody contributes fairly to the Government’s long-term stand for. economic plan. During this Parliament, Her Majesty’s I will address a number of points that have been Revenue and Customs has secured £100 billion in additional raised. The hon. Member for Edmonton spoke about revenue, thanks to this Government’s avoidance and £5 billion in tax avoidance. To answer his question, yes, evasion policies. Over a third of the Bill’s provisions will it is a realistic achievement to bring in the revenue that enact measures that go even further in tackling avoidance has been spelt out. There is no reason to doubt that the and evasion, including new measures on corporation Government can raise the figures we have already tax and offshore evasion and avoidance and, of course, announced, so we will proceed with that. On the point increases in the bank levy. That will raise nearly £8 billion about the tax code, we established the Office of Tax more over the next five years, helping to reduce the Simplification in 2010, and the Bill includes a number deficit and strengthen the country’s economic recovery. of measures that build on its recommendations. The Bill will help households up and down the country Points were also raised about oil and gas. The Bill with the cost of living, make the country even more introduces radical measures to support the oil and gas competitive internationally and, through the tax avoidance industry, giving investors long-term certainty. We have and evasion measures that we are putting place, ensure been working very constructively with the industry to that everyone pays their fair share of tax. The Bill ensure that the package will provide it with the right marks the next step forward in our long-term economic fiscal environment. plan, and I commend it to the House. On clause 12, which the hon. Member for Nottingham Question put and agreed to. East (Chris Leslie) mentioned, the exemption will not Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed apply where expenses are paid under a salary sacrifice to a Committee of the whole House (Order, 24 March). 1467 25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1468

Finance (No. 2) Bill raised the case of a charity dealing with disabled people in Wrexham that provides transport services, which are Considered in Committee (Order, 24 March) subject to VAT under the current arrangements. The process of securing exemptions seems easier for ski lifts, [DAME DAWN PRIMAROLO in the Chair] for example, than for disabled people in my constituency, so I would be interested to find out how on earth one Clause 66 secures exemptions for worthy charities.

VAT: REFUNDS TO CERTAIN CHARITIES Mr Gauke: I have heard the hon. Gentleman make Question proposed , That the clause stand part of the both points in the past, and if I remember correctly, I Bill. responded to an Adjournment debate on those matters. The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means There are significant benefits in our tax system for (Dame Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient charities, but the Government look at cases partly depending to discuss the following: on the demands on the public finances and what is affordable. We have looked in particular at hospices. Clause 67 stand part. There is a particularly strong case there, and to some New clause 1—Report on impact of value added tax— extent they are put at a disadvantage compared with “(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within three parts of the NHS because of the irrecoverable VAT that months of the passing of this Act, publish a report on the impact they pay. This is a matter that any Government would of the increase in the standard rate of VAT which took effect keep under review. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, from 4 January 2011. as a persistent Member, will raise the matter again if he (2) The report must estimate the impact of the increase in the has the opportunity to do so in future. standard rate of value added tax on— (a) living standards; In new clause 1, the Opposition ask us to publish a (b) small businesses; report on the impact of the increase in the standard rate of VAT in 2010. No doubt, the hon. Member for (c) the fairness of the taxation system; and Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) will set (d) economic growth.”. out her thinking on that, but let me make a pre-emptive 2.47 pm strike, if the Prime Minister has not already done so. Before I turn to the details and the imposition of VAT The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David in 2010, I shall briefly set out the context for that Gauke): Before speaking to clauses 66 and 67 and new decision. clause 1, may I first say what a great pleasure it is to Let us be clear that we increased the standard rate of serve under your chairmanship, Dame Dawn? This is VAT in 2010 as a consequence of the mess that the the last of a great number of Finance Bills in which you Opposition left the public finances in and the fact that, have played one role or another, and I have had the although the previous Government had left a mess, they privilege of serving with you on a number of those had not left behind a plan to clear it up. Of course, a tax occasions. This is the last afternoon on which you will impact information note was published by HM Revenue be dealing with tax matters, having done so for an and Customs at the time of the June 2010 Budget, but unconscionably long period, so I thank you for all that let us look at the situation that we inherited. At that you have done over many years and for your service as time, Office for Budget Responsibility’s Deputy Speaker and wish you a very happy retirement. pre-Budget 2010 forecast revealed that the structural Clauses 66 and 67 set out the Bill’s provisions on deficit—the part of the deficit that will not go away VAT. Clause 66 refunds VAT to charities involved in with the recovery—was higher than previously thought: co-ordinated search and rescue operations, air ambulance around £9 billion or 0.6% of GDP higher in 2010-11. charities, hospice charities and blood bike medical courier Debt repayments were forecast to reach more than charities. Clause 67 refunds the same levels of VAT to £67 billion by 2014-15, more than was spent on defence the strategic highways company—from 1 April it will or on schools in England. The UK had one of the take over the functions of the Highways Agency—as highest deficits of any advanced economy, so this are paid to the Highways Agency itself. It is largely a Government had to take urgent action to eliminate the tidying-up matter. bulk of the structural deficit, which is a necessary It is worth pointing out that refunding VAT will precondition for sustained economic growth. benefit around 400 charities that work alongside the emergency services, provide palliative care to terminally Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The Minister ill patients or support the national health service. The referred to the Prime Minister’s pre-emptive strike, but Hospice of St Francis in Berkhamsted in my constituency he will be well aware that similar statements were made is very appreciative of the measure and thinks that it before the last election. Does not the whole VAT issue will make a significant difference to the service it can illustrate the difference between the parties? The Labour provide to my constituents in South West Hertfordshire. Government’s response to an economic recession was I suspect that clauses 66 and 67 will not cause great to stimulate the economy by reducing VAT. The response controversy in Committee, but I will of course be happy of the incoming Government was to deflate the economy to take any questions on them. by increasing VAT. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I am sure that we all welcome the clauses relating to VAT relief for hospices, Mr Gauke: The previous Government brought VAT which do such a tremendous job. Can the Financial back up. We know from his memoirs that the then Secretary help me by explaining how charities are selected Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. and how VAT exemptions are secured? I have previously Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), believed 1469 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1470 that a Labour Government after 2010 should increase Since the autumn statement last year, the UK’s fiscal VAT. A Budget document was even published showing position has improved right across the forecast period, VAT going up to, I believe, 18.5%. I know that that was with higher receipts and lower debt interest. This published by mistake, but it clearly shows that serious Government have restored stability, put the public finances consideration was given to that. The previous Labour on a sustainable path and are about to put public sector Government recognised that taxes would have to increase. net debt on to a declining path as a share of GDP. They had proposals to increase employers national insurance contributions, or the jobs tax. Given that Ian Lucas: Will the Minister give way? there is such uncertainty about the Opposition’s plans for what they would do in government, the question is Mr Gauke: Let me make a little more progress. whether they would rule out increasing employers national The previous Government failed to take decisive insurance contributions. action to get our country moving again. Our record speaks for itself. Employment is now at its highest ever Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab) level. Economic growth is now firmly in place and at the rose— Budget the OBR revised up its forecasts. The UK economy is forecast to grow by 2.5% in 2015, 2.3% in Mr Gauke: I give the hon. Lady an ideal opportunity 2016, 2.3% in 2017, rising to 2.4% in 2019. to do that. Ian Lucas: Is it not correct that in June 2010, when Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful to the Financial the Chancellor increased VAT, he said that he would Secretary. As we have been in the Chamber, he may not eliminate the deficit by the end of this Parliament but be aware that we have ruled out any rise in national has not done so? Despite the increase in VAT that he insurance. imposed, he failed in that aim. Why is that?

Mr Gauke: Well, there we go. I am struck by the fact 3pm that the Leader of the Opposition was very reluctant to say that earlier, but I am pleased that he has been Mr Gauke: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman look at bounced into providing that clarification. [Interruption.] the analysis by the Office for Budget Responsibility of I noticed that he did not answer questions earlier today. why its forecasts on deficit reduction were not met. It [Interruption.] Indeed, he will never have the chance to has been very clear that the three reasons it did not answer questions at Prime Minister’s Question Time. happen were the eurozone crisis; the after-effects of the financial crisis being greater than it or, indeed, other Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): It has taken me five independent observers had expected; and higher commodity years to learn that Prime Minister’s questions is about prices than had been expected. That made deficit reduction the Leader of the Opposition and us asking questions harder than it would otherwise have been. and the Prime Minister not answering them. It is not The critique of Labour Members is sometimes to say Leader of the Opposition’s questions; it is Prime Minister’s that we have rigidly stuck to our plans to reduce spending, questions. We do not answer questions; the Government and on other occasions to say that we have failed to are supposed to. reduce the deficit as fast as we said we would. As regards our spending plans, the departmental and welfare Mr Gauke: I notice that the hon. Lady does not spending reductions that we set out have been delivered. answer questions. I am glad we finally got some clarification The automatic stabilisers came into effect; we have on that point, but as I say, I do not think the right hon. shown the flexibility to allow that to happen. As a Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) will consequence, we have delivered what we set out in terms ever have the opportunity to answer Prime Minister’s of reducing spending, although we have faced more questions. difficult circumstances. Labour Members are all over the place in this debate. Sometimes they say that we David Wright (Telford) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman have stuck rigidly to plans that we should not have agree that VAT is a regressive tax in principle? Can he stuck to, and at other times they say that we have let the tell us why the Government chose to use an increase in deficit rise. VAT as a tool for bringing down the deficit? We must remember that Labour Members opposed every single measure that we took to reduce the deficit. Mr Gauke: I will turn to that question in a moment, Had they been in power and had they been consistent in but before I do so, I shall say a little about this Government’s what they said—at least in their rhetoric—in opposition, record. we would have seen borrowing at a substantially higher High public debt can lead to a loss of market confidence level over the past few years, leaving our public finances and higher market interest rates, raising the cost of in an unsustainable position, putting our recovery at borrowing for families and businesses and discouraging risk, and damaging the economic credibility of the investment and consumer spending. So what has our United Kingdom. Thankfully, they did not have the long-term economic plan delivered? Today public sector opportunity to crash the car, having done so once net borrowing as a percentage of GDP is forecast to already. have halved between 2009-10 and 2014-15. Latest data from the IMF show that this Government also reduced Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does the structural deficit by more than half between 2010 the hon. Gentleman not accept that the deficit targets and 2013. In fact, the UK’s structural deficit fell by were not satisfied because the growth projections went 4.6% of GDP over 2010 to 2013—a larger reduction down, and that is because consumption went down, and than any other country in the G7. that is because VAT went up? I appreciate what the 1471 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1472

[Geraint Davies] as a safe haven. The UK’s fiscal credibility has been maintained, and it would not have been had we stuck to Prime Minister said earlier, but does the hon. Gentleman Labour’s plans, even with a significant increase in the accept that if VAT went up now, when we have 0% jobs tax. inflation, that would spiral the economy down, and that it would be better to reduce VAT than to reduce tax Julie Hilling: Does the Minister not see that raising thresholds in order to stimulate growth to balance the VAT and cutting benefits hits the most vulnerable in books? society? Does he think it is right that children in this country should lose weight over school summer holidays Mr Gauke: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that we because their parents do not have enough money to should reduce VAT? feed them, that people are dependent on food banks, and that we have had people starve to death because of Geraint Davies: I am saying that given a choice between benefit cuts? Is that the way this country should be in lower VAT or lower tax thresholds, does the hon. Gentleman this day and age? accept that lower VAT would give higher growth and help to reduce the deficit—or is he a just a politician Mr Gauke: Under this Government, child poverty without any economic sense? has fallen, and pensioner poverty is at a lower level than it has ever been. Only today, we have seen numbers Mr Gauke: Well, there we go: another pledge from a showing that there are 600,000 fewer workless households Labour Member that would increase borrowing levels. I than there were in 2010. If we wish to deal with poverty, should remind the House that when VAT was increased, and we certainly do, the best way is to have a job-creating, Labour Members did not vote against it. growing economy, and that is precisely what the long-term economic plan is delivering. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Does the Minister share To be fair to the hon. Member for Swansea West my surprise that a policy is being proposed whereby the (Geraint Davies), he says that he would cut VAT, but biggest winners would be pop stars, premiership footballers I am not hearing that from Labour Front Benchers. I and bankers, who spend the most? must remind Labour Members that, with a handful of exceptions, none of them voted against the increase in Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I VAT in 2010. I note that one of the handful of exceptions will come back to that later. is sitting on the Opposition Benches, but Labour Members Our long-term economic plan has delivered economic did not vote against it. growth and record levels of employment, and it has put this country on a sustainable economic footing. Specifically Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): On the subject of on VAT, we have maintained the VAT registration threshold, deficit reduction, does my hon. Friend recall a report which is now £82,000—the highest in the EU. That is of from the IFS a little while ago that said that Labour’s significant benefit to small businesses right across the plans would have resulted in about £200 billion more country. While the bulk of the deficit reduction has borrowing if the Labour Government had continued, come from spending, we chose to increase VAT from given the change in circumstances? Does that not show 2011. If it is necessary to raise large sums of money, as that there is a massive black hole at the heart of Labour it clearly was in 2010 when we saw the structural deficit Members’ current plans that would be made worse by deteriorate—at least, the assessment made by the previous the out-of-the-blue, panicky pledges on tax that they Government, and then by the independent OBR, showed are suddenly making on the hoof on the news after a significant deterioration—then it is necessary to raise pressure at today’s Prime Minister’s questions? one of the bigger taxes. Happily, we are no longer in that situation under the Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes a good point that plans put forward by the Conservative party. I am is very relevant to the debate we are having about VAT. afraid that Labour Members’ plans—not engaging in The three main parties in this House have agreed that reducing the welfare budget and not committing themselves we will deliver a cyclical current budget surplus by to controlling departmental spending in the way we 2017-18; that is what the charter of fiscal responsibility would—mean that they will need to find a substantial states. The vast majority of Labour Members trooped tax increase. A Labour Government in 2010 would have through the Lobby to support that measure. Independent put up the jobs tax—a different choice from ours. In analysis, as well as the Treasury’s analysis, confirmed those circumstances, it is hard to believe that we would that that requires some £30 billion-worth of fiscal have 1.9 million more people in work today than we had adjustments. From my party’s point of view, that would in 2010. be made up of £13 billion from departmental spending, £12 billion from welfare spending, and £5 billion from Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): If the anti-tax evasion and tax avoidance measures. Conservatives’ plan was so brilliant, will the Minister The Liberal Democrats have set out how they will get explain why, even at the height of the global crash in the their £30 billion. Their plan has a different balance and UK, under the Labour Government we did not lose our make-up from the Conservative plan, but they have set triple A credit rating, but on his watch we did? it out. The Labour party has not set out how it will reach that £30 billion. If Labour is not going to cut Mr Gauke: We have retained the confidence of the welfare in the way the Conservatives are, and if it is not markets, and we have retained very low long-term interest going to cut departmental spending as we are—as far as rates. When we came to power, we were on a par with I can see, that, after all, is the heart of Labour’s election the likes of Spain and Italy; now, we are seen very much campaign—more money must come from tax. That is 1473 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1474 why the question of who will raise taxes and what taxes Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman says growth shot up will be raised is much more acute for Labour Members. last time, but we had the biggest contraction of our They have questions to answer. There is a gap in their economy in living memory under the Labour public finance plans, whereas we have set out plans that Government—[Interruption.] do not require us to put up taxes on hard-working people. The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. I shall ask Members once not to shout across the Chamber at Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The Minister one another, and to listen to whoever is on their feet, is being unfair to Labour Members. They will manage which at this time is the Minister. to reduce the deficit by not opening any more free schools, and by abolishing police and crime commissioners. Mr Gauke: Thank you, Mr Hood. That will undoubtedly solve the problem. When President Hollande took office, with the enthusiasm and support of the Labour party in this Mr Gauke: We must not forget that Labour will put country, I have no doubt that he wanted growth to up gun licences—that is also on the list. increase in France. The fact that our economy is growing I note that the shadow Secretary of State for Work something like seven times faster than France’s is not and Pensions, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel because of a lack of desire on the part of the French Reeves), announced yesterday that she will “abolish the Government, but because some policies work better bedroom tax” and use the savings for something else. I than others. The Labour party’s policies would not am not sure that I understand how there can be savings result in higher growth—it is so anti-business that it from that measure. would drive investment from this country, and its tax policies seek to punish wealth creators. I question Labour’s Ian Lucas: Will the Minister give way? supply-side policies.

Mr Gauke: I will give way one more time; I ought to 3.15 pm press on. Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Does not Ian Lucas: The Minister’s case is that, because of the the latest Labour U-turn on the jobs tax—perhaps it savings that the Government plan to make, there is no was forced into it—create an even bigger black hole in need to increase VAT. Why did the Chancellor not say its finances? How will Labour balance the books? that in his Budget statement? Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I confess that I am a little young to remember the 1959 Mr Gauke: What I have said is consistent with what election, but some hon. Members will recall it. the Chancellor has said again and again. Our plans do not require us to increase taxes for hard-working people, Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Thank you. which is why we can rule out putting up VAT— [Interruption.]—or extending it. The point the hon. Mr Gauke: I am looking at the hon. Gentleman. He Gentleman must answer is that his plans require taxes may recall, as a very young lad, the 1959 general election. or borrowing to go up. He wants to ask hard questions about filling in fiscal black holes by raising taxes. They indicated assent. are questions for Labour Front Benchers, not for me, Stephen Pound because our plans clearly do not need it. Mr Gauke: He does. I am sure he was a very young man at the time. Under a great deal of pressure, Hugh Several hon. Members rose— Gaitskell ruled out all sorts of tax increases and at the same time made all sorts of promises about public Mr Gauke: I am spoilt for choice. It is important to spending. The British people rumbled the Labour party share these things around, so let me give way to the hon. in 1959 and did not believe that that was a credible Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies), who has position. As a consequence, they returned a Conservative been very patient. Government with an even bigger majority.Labour Members might want to be a little bit careful about parallels with Geraint Davies: The Minister assumes that the choice 1959. is between tax and spend. Does he accept that if the tax and spend options are made in one way rather than Mr Love: As we are talking about rumbling the another they will promote more growth and therefore Government, the election will be an opportunity to more revenues? If more money goes to poorer people scrutinise the Chancellor’s claim about the £30 billion who spend all their money, as opposed to rich people of savings. He has said there will be £12 billion savings who hide it in tax havens—10% of UK wealth is offshore— from welfare reform but has indicated how only £3 billion and if we had a Labour Government and a fairer will be found. He has said he will get £5 billion from distribution, we would surely have more growth and anti-evasion and avoidance measures, but has indicated fewer cuts. where only £3 billion of that will come from. There is still a huge credibility gap. Will the Minister help us Mr Gauke: I am deeply unpersuaded of the idea that, with it? somehow, magically, growth will shoot up if we have a Labour Government. Mr Gauke: I will tell the hon. Gentleman where the credibility gap is. Labour Members effectively voted for Geraint Davies: It did last time. a £30 billion target. They then denied it. They now will 1475 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1476

[Mr Gauke] connected with the Conservative Government of the 1950s. I absolutely think we need to do more to get not indicate what adjustments they will undertake in more people into the housing market, and this Government 2016-17 and 2017-18. They have not said how they will are delivering on that and we are definitely moving in reduce departmental spending, or how, or whether, they the right direction. will reduce welfare spending. They have not said how much they will raise from tax. If they will not give us Mr Love: I thank the Minister for being so good with answers to those questions, we can only assume that it is his time. All the measures in this year’s Budget stoke up because they intend to tax and borrow more. If they will demand for housing. It has little or nothing to say about not provide clarity on that, we will make that point time supply. Will that not result in higher house prices? and again. Mr Gauke: It should be noted that the Office for Budget Responsibility does not believe that any of the Charlie Elphicke: Speaking of Labour’s spending and measures announced last week will feed through to tax commitments, how many times over have Labour higher house prices. We also announced supply-side Members spent the bank bonus tax? Is it 10 times, or policies and 20 housing zones last week. It is right that more? I have lost count. we take steps to support supply. The hon. Gentleman said that I was being generous Mr Gauke: I thought it was 11 but I could be wrong. with my time, but I am conscious that I am also being It may be 12 by now—who knows?—because that money generous with the Committee’s time, so let me make a may be being used to pay for Labour’s tuition fees little progress. To return to the point made by the hon. policy. Member for Telford (David Wright), the VAT increase in 2010 applied only to the standard rate. Everyday Shabana Mahmood: For the avoidance of doubt, and essentials such as food and children’s clothing, as well for what feels like the 278th time in Treasury debates, I as newspapers and printed books, have remained zero-rated should tell the Minister that the bank bonus tax will pay throughout this Parliament, which protects those on for one policy and only one policy: the paid starter low and middle incomes. On fairness, we have reduced jobs—the compulsory jobs guarantee. Why do the income tax for more than 27 million individuals, with Government not match us on that policy rather than basic rate taxpayers £905 better off in cash terms compared harp on about their failed rhetoric on the bank bonus with 2010. tax? There is no need to publish a report on the impacts of the rise in VAT announced in 2010—a rise that, after Mr Gauke: The Government have a very good record all, the Labour party did not oppose. The Government’s in delivering jobs—sustainable jobs—in this country. economic record speaks for itself: record employment in the UK against virtually record unemployment in Stephen Pound rose— France. By 2017, basic rate taxpayers will be £905 better off in cash terms compared with 2010, and 3.7 million Mr Gauke: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, individuals with low incomes will have been taken out who will no doubt enlighten the House about the 1959 of income tax altogether. The European Union’s own general election. analysis describes UK living standards as the fourth highest in the EU, above those of France, Italy, Spain, Stephen Pound: I would be delighted to do so. I Ireland and the Netherlands. campaigned against Sir Oswald Mosley in Kensington We have delivered sustainable economic growth while North—admittedly, I was only 11 years old, but I did a across the EU economies stagnate, but we recognise fairly good job. He did not win. that the job is not finished. This Government continue I put it to the Minister that, in 1959, the Conservative to take the difficult decisions needed to secure a responsible party was very different—it was a much more consensual, recovery and stay on course to prosperity. I therefore nay Butskellite, Conservative party. One thing the hope that the Labour party will not press new clause 1 Conservatives stood on was house building. They had a and that clauses 66 and 67 will stand part of the Bill. proud record. Does the Minister believe that the Bill The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Ihavenowto will help house building in this country? announce the result of the deferred Division on the question relating to the draft Infrastructure Planning Mr Gauke: I share the view that we need to build (Radioactive Waste Geological Disposal Facilities) Order more houses in this country, but I am pleased that last 2015. The Ayes were 277 and the Noes were 33, so the year housing starts were at a record high for seven years Question was agreed to. or so, that planning permissions are going up, and that [The Division list is published at the end of today’s we have reformed planning law to enable more houses debates.] to be built. In the Budget last week, there were details of 20 housing zones that could support something like Shabana Mahmood: It is a pleasure to serve under 45,000 homes. That is consistent with a desire to ensure your chairmanship, Mr Hood. New clause 1 stands in greater opportunity for people to acquire their own my name and those of my right hon. Friend the Member home. for Morley and Outwood () and my hon. Friends It is also worth pointing out that in last week’s the Members for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) and Budget we introduced Help to Buy individual savings for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson). It accounts, which will enable people to acquire deposits requests the Treasury to commission so that they can enter the housing market. In terms of “a report on the impact of the increase in the standard rate of continuity, I would not necessarily be proud of everything VAT which took effect from 4 January 2011.” 1477 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1478

The report must estimate the impact of that increase on History proves that what the Prime Minister said at living standards, small businesses, the fairness of the Question Time today should not be believed, because it taxation system and economic growth. has all been said before and VAT has always gone up. The House has debated issues relating to VAT on a number of occasions, which the Minister referenced in Charlie Elphicke rose— his opening remarks, and it was, of course, a hot topic Shabana Mahmood: Igivewaytotheroverfrom of debate at Prime Minister’s questions today. If the Dover. Prime Minister or any Conservative Members think that they can put the issue to bed today, let me tell them Charlie Elphicke: Would the hon. Lady rule out a that they will not find it that easy, and I will set out the Labour Government keeping VAT at the same level, or reasons for that during the course of my speech. Frankly, would they reduce it? The hon. Lady ought to tell the to believe what the Prime Minister has said today about Committee. VAT would be rather like believing what the Deputy Prime Minister said about tuition fees before the last Shabana Mahmood: I will come on to what we announced general election. The public are simply not going to buy yesterday, but we are not going to raise VAT. That is as it, and I think the whole House is well aware of that. clear as it gets, and the hon. Gentleman knows that. Our new clause asks for a review because Oppositions I remind the Committee that VAT is the tax that hits are limited in what they can call for in amendments to a everyone, with the same rate paid by the pensioner as by Finance Bill, but no Member can be in any doubt about the millionaire. For many pensioners and those on the our argument about the consequences of the political lowest incomes, it is the biggest tax that they pay. It is choices that are being—and that have been—made by also the tax that hits people every single day, whether the Conservative party and signed up to by the Liberal they are buying a cup of coffee or filling up the family Democrats, even though they have been desperately car. Everybody does that every single day.The Government’s trying to pretend that they had nothing to do with the decision to raise the standard rate of VAT has, without fiscal assumptions given to the OBR, on the basis of doubt, hit the living standards of millions of people. which it made its assessments of what is likely to According to the Treasury’s own figures, it has cost happen in the next Parliament. I welcome to the debate families an average of £1,800 over the past four years. the lone Liberal Democrat on the Government Benches, That is no small trifling sum of money, even if it is the hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle). Perhaps averaged over four years. if I give way to him he can rule out raising VAT. As I heard from constituents across Birmingham when I was there with the shadow Chancellor yesterday, Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): I thank the shadow £1,800 has had a huge impact on their ability to make Minister for inviting me to give my views on the fiscal ends meet and to do the basic things in life—putting situation. My constituency has seen unemployment fall food on the table and keeping a roof over their families’ from 7.5% to 2.5% and has received more than £50 million heads, desperately hoping they will not have to go to a of Government money. I remember 1959, because I was food bank, even though they have a job, just to put food 16 and had just started work. I canvassed for a guy in the bellies of their children. That £1,800 is a significant called Arthur Davidson, who was a Labour Member, sum of money and, coupled with the other facts of this and he said the same old things that the Labour party Government’s record, such as wages being down by an always says: “Vote for us and there’ll be no problems. average of £1,600 a year and the combined impact of We’ll have full employment.” Well, I remember what tax and benefit changes, families are on average more happened after 1959, because I lived through it. It is than £1,000 a year worse off. very cruel of the hon. Lady to suggest that some of the thing we are agreeing to now are wrong— 3.30 pm The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. The Those are significant sums of money and that is why intervention is too long. I was proud to join the shadow Chancellor in Birmingham yesterday, when he made a crystal clear pledge to the British people that a Labour Government will not raise Shabana Mahmood: Thank you, Mr Hood. I am VAT or extend VAT to food, children’s clothes, books, grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, during newspapers and public transport fares. In their Budget, which he did not rule out a rise in VAT under the the Conservatives confirmed their intentions for extreme Liberal Democrats. Perhaps we will have to wait for spending cuts in the next Parliament and we have heard others to comment on that. about that in the debate this afternoon. We also know from the point made by my hon. Friend the shadow David Wright: Will my hon. Friend give us a bit more Chief Secretary to the Treasury that the Conservatives detail about new clause 1? I would like the study to look have made £10 billion-worth of unfunded tax promises. at the impact of VAT on the poorest people in our With five weeks left until the election, we are still community, who are hit disproportionately by increases waiting to hear how those promises on tax cuts will be in VAT. The Conservative party has form on VAT, so paid for. I will happily give way to the Minister if he the poorest people will be very concerned that it will rise wants to shed some light on the matter, but he appears again after the election. to be unwilling to intervene. That is a shame, because in his opening speech on this clause he talked with great Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely flourish about credibility, credibility gaps and ensuring right. That is exactly what people across the country that people know what they are voting for. If people will be concerned about. The Conservative party has make an unfunded tax promise, their credibility will form, which I will go into in detail during my speech. take a huge hit—and rightly so. 1479 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1480

When the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime ingrained in their collective DNA. Before the 1979 Minister were in opposition, they were happy to talk up general election, the then shadow Chancellor Geoffrey the fact that nobody believes an unfunded tax cut and Howe said: they were absolutely right. Nobody believes them now. “We have absolutely no intention of doubling VAT.” If they are going to deliver that we should at least hear He specifically talked about doubling it. In his first how they will start paying for it. If they want to see off Budget, however, he raised VAT from 8% to 15%. the charge that VAT will go up under the Tories if they Conservative Members may take comfort from the fact win the next general election, regardless of what the that eight times two is 16, not 15, but they should not be Prime Minister said in questions today, they need to proud of a seven percentage points rise in VAT or show start answering some of the questions about the unfunded off about its not being the eight percentage points rise tax cuts that they have already promised. that it might have been, given that such a rise had been absolutely ruled out and that there was no intention to Charlie Elphicke: Given that both parties have ruled double VAT. [Interruption.] Such a point brought no out an increase in VAT and that the hon. Lady will not comfort to people who ended up paying the 15% rate of commit to a reduction in VAT, it is hard to understand VAT,despite what the Financial Secretary, who is chuntering Labour’s position. This debate is a theatre of the absurd. from a sedentary position, seems to think. In 1991, Chancellor Norman Lamont increased VAT from 15% to 17.5%, claiming that his approach was Shabana Mahmood: I have a lot of time for the hon. “consistent” with the “strategy for tax reform” first set Gentleman and we spend much time debating Finance out by Geoffrey Howe in the 1979 Budget. Chancellor Bills, but I must say to him as gently as I can that that Lamont was correct that the approach was consistent: it was an absurd intervention. We have made a clear was consistent with the approach of raising VAT rather commitment to the British people on what will happen than doing anything else. It seems that that approach to VAT on our watch. It will not go up. We know that it may have slipped his mind, because just a year later, will go up if his party wins the next general election. before the 1992 general election, Norman Lamont told There are no two ways about it. It does not matter what Parliament that he the Prime Minister has said and it does not matter what the hon. Gentleman says now. We know that because of “again made it clear that the United Kingdom has no intention his party’s record and form on VAT. I shall give a of changing our VAT rate.”—[Official Report, 13 June 1991; lengthy exposition of that history and form very shortly. Vol. 192, c. 627W.] That promise was reiterated by the former Prime Minister John Major, when he promised Parliament: Gordon Birtwistle: The hon. Lady says that the “There will be no VAT increase. Unlike the Labour party, we Conservative party will definitely increase VAT. What have published our spending plans and there is no need for us to proof does she have of that? If she has proof, will she raise VAT to meet them.”—[Official Report, 28 January 1992; come clean about it today? Vol. 202, c. 808.] He also said that year that he had Shabana Mahmood: If the hon. Gentleman gives me “no plans and no need to raise extra resources from value-added a few minutes, I shall get on to that point very shortly. tax.” He will understand that the past performance and form The arguments then are almost exactly same as those of the people who sit opposite me today, the Conservatives, we are hearing now. is the clearest and surest indicator. Unfunded tax cuts Will Government Members remind us what happened have already been promised and spending plans have after the 1992 election? There are no takers, because been made that require a Government to cut further they know the answer: the Conservatives remember and faster in the early part of the next Parliament than their consistent approach to raising VAT. The then they have in this Parliament, and that is the clearest Chancellor introduced VAT on domestic heating and indication we can get. They can do nothing else but put fuel in the 1993 Budget, phasing it in at 8% from 1994. up VAT; that is their tax of choice when it comes to When he became Chancellor in 1993, the right hon. and raising the tax revenues they are looking for. learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) refused to As I have said, the independent Institute for Fiscal reverse that increase saying that Studies has said that the Government’s Budget plans “no one is going to die from VAT on heating.” mean that spending cuts after the election will be twice That is a very bad way of making a point, because as deep as anything seen in the past five years. The cuts people have in fact ended up dying from the cold. We will go deeper and be made faster in the early part of know that people, the elderly in particular, often have to the next Parliament than we have seen during the past choose between heating their home and eating. Had it five years. In reality, that will translate into extreme cuts not been for a Labour defeat in the House of Commons, to our crucial front-line public services, such as the under the Conservatives we would have seen VAT on police, defence and social care. The cuts will be so deep electricity and gas bills increase to 17.5% in April 1995. that they will be almost impossible to achieve, first, without putting the NHS at risk, and secondly, without Twenty years later we find ourselves listening to a making a further rise in VAT on the Tories’ watch familiar story. Before the last general election, the Prime simply inevitable. Minister, the then Leader of the Opposition, said: Not only do the choices that the Government, and “We have no plans to put up VAT, it’s not part of our plans.” the Conservatives in particular, have made about spending I like the double emphasis: say it twice, and that might and deficit reduction make such a VAT rise inevitable, make it true. The Chancellor, the then Shadow Chancellor, regardless of the Prime Minister’s bluster today they are said: 1481 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1482

“The plans we set out involved around 80 per cent of the work put it up, and they sought to expand its application. I coming from spending restraint”— noticed that earlier the Financial Secretary appeared to cuts— rule out an expansion of VAT, but I was not entirely “and about 20 per cent from tax increases. The tax increases are sure whether he had done that deliberately. Will he already in place, the plans do not involve an increase in VAT.” intervene on me to confirm that not only will VAT not So such a rise was ruled out by the Prime Minister and go up—that is according to the Prime Minister, although by the Chancellor when they were in opposition. However, I do not believe it—but it will not be expanded? I just weeks after taking office, like all the former Conservative wonder why the Financial Secretary is not biting my Chancellors before him, the current Chancellor increased arm off to intervene and confirm that. VAT to achieve his plans of 20% consolidation coming Mr Gauke rose— from tax increases and 80% coming from spending cuts. He said: Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful. “To achieve that additional tightening while maintaining the right ‘four-to-one’ balance between spending and taxation means Mr Gauke: The Prime Minister has been clear: we do that I have to announce further tax rises today. On 4 January next not need to increase VAT or put VAT on essentials such year, the main rate of VAT will rise from 17.5% to 20%.”—[Official as food and children’s clothes. Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 177.] There is no doubt that such a rise has hit family budgets Shabana Mahmood: So basically, both those things hard. Despite knowing that that would happen, and are definitely going to happen if the Financial Secretary’s that there would be a huge impact on the economy as a party is elected in a few weeks’ time. whole, the Chancellor chose to do what every Conservative Where are we today? The same old Tories and the Chancellor has always chosen to do—put up VAT. That same old story. Whatever the Prime Minister has said is why we can say so emphatically—I say this to Liberal today simply will not answer the justifiable charge against Democrat Members in particular—that if the Tories are the Government about why they should be trusted if we elected at the general election in just a few weeks’ time, look only at their record and at what they have delivered they will do it again. It is in their collective DNA, and in this Parliament. They broke their promise after the ruling it out but then doing it is precisely what they have last general election and they will do the same after the form for. That is their history, and I believe that they next one. At the end of each Parliament since 1979 in will honour their history if they are elected. which the Tories have been in government, they have Analysis produced by the Treasury in July 2010 showed raised an average of £13.5 billion from VAT changes. the estimated impact of a one percentage point rise in The electorate know that when it comes to VAT and the the standard rate of VAT. That analysis means that we Tories, actions will always speak louder than words. know, for instance, that in the past four years the People know that they cannot be trusted because they Government’s VAT rise has cost a single pensioner break their promises again and again. They broke their £500, a one-parent family £900, a pensioner couple promises in 1979, 1992 and 2010, and they will break £1,100 and a couple with children £1,800. them in 2015.

Ian Lucas: I do not want my hon. Friend to be too 3.45 pm charitable to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so may I According to work by the Treasury, an additional remind her that in addition to the 2010 increase in the 2.5% rise in VAT would cost a family with children an standard rate of VAT, the Chancellor made proposals average of £450 a year and a pensioner couple £275 a in 2012, in the middle of his disastrous economic policy, year. From what they have shown us in government, it is to extend VAT through the and the caravan not Tory party policy to ask those most able to contribute tax? Not only did he increase VAT in 2010, but he went more to do so; in fact, it is their policy to give a tax cut back to the well in 2012 when the policy was collapsing. to those earning more than £150,000 a year.

Shabana Mahmood: I was just about to make exactly Charlie Elphicke: This debate seems to be based on a that point. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that in false premise. The Government have been clear that a 2012, having already done what all Conservative Chancellors rise in VAT is not necessary to balance the books do and put up VAT, the Chancellor sought to expand it because we do not have a hole in our plans for public by applying it to pasties and caravans in the so-called finances. The Labour party does have a black hole and Budget. I have always thought that it it cannot be trusted on anything it says about the jobs was a bit of a shame that that term from “The Thick of tax. It” was used, because if the sequence of events that Shabana Mahmood: If the hon. Gentleman will allow unfolded following that Budget had been presented to me I will answer that by posing a simple question back the scriptwriters of “”, they would not to him, and then I will give way so that he can answer it. have touched it. They would have said that even for Where will the £12 billion of cuts to welfare come from? “The Thick of It” it was an unbelievable series of How will the £5 billion for tax avoidance be found? If events. Yet that is what the Chancellor delivered. My he can answer those questions he will go further than hon. Friend is absolutely right that the Chancellor tried those on his Front Bench have managed to do while to expand the scope of VAT, yet today the Conservatives making those promises. Perhaps he can shed some light wonder why nobody will believe what the Prime Minister on the issue for the British public. said at Prime Minister’s questions. We do not have to go back over the past 20 or Charlie Elphicke: The Government have been clear in 30 years. We can just look at the record of the current setting out their plans in the Red Book, and they have Chancellor and Prime Minister on VAT. They like to been audited, considered and reviewed by the Office for 1483 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1484

[Charlie Elphicke] marketing material should not have trumped the responsible thing to do: to allow the OBR independently to audit all Budget Responsibility. What are not clear are the plans parties’ manifesto commitments. I was very happy for of the Opposition, although it is increasingly clear that that to happen. there is a black hole in those plans and that they The bankers’ bonus tax would pay for one policy and consistently make it up as they go along. I suggest to the one policy alone: the compulsory youth jobs guarantee. hon. Lady that Labour’s so-called pledge on the jobs [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman thinks the stubbornly tax cannot be believed at all. high rate of youth unemployment is a laughing matter, he is mistaken. The Conservatives stole a few of our Shabana Mahmood: That was not even a valiant policies in last week’s Budget. Rather than laughing off attempt to try to answer my questions, but the hon. the idea of the bankers’ bonus tax, I would have been Gentleman is not on the Front Bench and I suppose I happy for them to have stolen that policy, as it would am being a little uncharitable in suggesting that he have delivered jobs for the young people in my constituency cannot answer a question that his own Chancellor is not who could find themselves on the jobs scrap-heap for prepared to answer either. many years to come. The Conservatives should have We have numbers of £12 billion, £13 billion and adopted it; it would have made a real and practical £5 billion from the Chancellor, yet with all the might of difference. the Treasury behind him and lots of officials to do the numbers we have no detail on how those figures will be Stephen Pound: I am extremely grateful to my hon. found. The Government spent a whole Parliament trying Friend for her innate generosity in giving way. Does she to talk up their record on tax avoidance and they are not agree that new clause 1 would provide transparency saying that they will get £5 billion in the next Parliament, and openness, and that the report would be immensely yet there is no detail on how those amounts will be useful? Does she honestly think that any true democrat made up and no guarantee that they will be delivered. I and believer in fiscal transparency could do anything am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman cannot answer other than support the Labour amendment? those questions if those on the Government Front Bench will not either. Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely The Conservative party’s plans for what they would right. We have been debating whether VAT will go up, like to do if elected in a few weeks’ time are extreme and but new clause 1 is pretty innocuous. It calls only for a go much further than deficit reduction. They are trying review and an assessment of the impact the rise in VAT to deliver a surplus of £7 billion. That had to be has had on living standards. If the Minister wanted us changed from the previous desire to get a surplus of to believe what the Prime Minister said today in Prime £23 billion, because the Government got spooked by Minister’s questions—that he is ruling out a rise in recognition across the country of what that would VAT—then what is the problem? Adopt the new clause, mean for the size of the state. They have now come add it to the Bill and let us have the assessment. He down to £7 billion, which still means that they have to would be able to show how VAT has had an impact and go further and faster in the early part of the next why the Conservatives are doing such a good job, if Parliament than they have in the previous five years. they are elected again, in not letting it go up. Those choices have to be paid for. Given that some budgets are protected and that commitments to Fiona O’Donnell: Given the lack of a response from international development and aid spending will not the Government Benches, may I suggest that seeing the change, and given the scale of what the Conservative impact of the increase in VAT written down might party wants to achieve with the country’s finances, it is make it harder for the Tories and the Liberal Democrats physically not possible to do such things without putting to break their promise the second time around? the NHS at risk of cuts or potentially of charging, or of raising VAT. That is the charge being made—it is not Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely just about the history and the record. The hon. Gentleman right. That is the only conclusion we can draw from could have resiled from the Conservative party’s record, what the Minister and the Prime Minister have been but he chose not to do so. The combination of the saying today. If the Minister really wanted to back up Conservative party’s history on VAT and its figures for the Prime Minister’s claims, and to give us a hint that he the next Parliament tells us that if it is elected a VAT might be believed, he should have just accepted our new rise is coming. There can be no doubt about it, given the clause. It is straightforward, and adding it to the Bill combination of those two factors. would shine some light on the impact of VAT. We are very clear that we will not raise VAT. It may be that the The hon. Gentleman attacked our plans and Government do not want the facts out in the public commitments, but for every commitment that involves domain because they plan to do so. raising revenue, we have highlighted where that revenue will come from and we have made the figures public. It was the Labour party that called for the OBR to conduct David Wright: Will my hon. Friend give way? an independent audit of all parties’manifesto commitments. We could have avoided this debate if we had allowed the Shabana Mahmood: I am going to finish now, because OBR to do so. I was very happy to submit my party’s I want to give time to everybody else who wishes to plans to an independent audit. I wonder why the speak in the debate. Government chose not to do so. Perhaps they had We all know what is coming if the Conservatives are something to hide. Perhaps they did not want to be elected at the next general election: VAT will go up. robbed of the ability to have a “tax bombshell”-type That is what their record tells us and that is what their poster. The needs of the Conservative party’s election plans require. If the Minister wants to be even a little bit 1485 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1486 believable—even 1% believable—he should at the very it reversed was the increase in VAT, which stifled confidence least accept new clause 1 and set the cat among the and the spending power of many in our communities. I pigeons, but I do not think he will take that opportunity would also like to hear from a Government Member today. whether a great deal of the deficit resulted from the decision by the then Chancellor, my right hon. Friend Fiona O’Donnell: It is pleasure to speak in this debate—I the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), hope it will have been worth the wait—and to serve under to bail out the banks. Would Government Members your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I hope that we both have have bailed out the banks, or do they think we should the opportunity to repeat the experience after 7 May. have left them to fail? Is anyone going to jump up? I rise to support this excellent improvement to the Anyone? No, they are all hypnotised, it would appear, Bill proposed by my hon. Friends on the Front Bench, and unable to respond. Bailing out the banks was the because I would like to better understand the impact of responsible thing to do. It might have seemed unfair, the VAT increase in my constituency. The Tory long-term but it was important to people in my constituency that economic plan is a marketing con and a rebranding of a when they went to the ATMs the next day they could five-year failed economic plan—five years of broken still draw out their wages. promises on borrowing, the deficit and VAT. I do not The Financial Secretary talked about the Government’s know if Government Members have been watching a sustained economic growth agenda. I do not remember new programme—on ITV down here, but on STV in my sustained economic growth following the increase in constituency—in which hypnosis is used to shift people’s VAT. I seem to remember the worst recession that this perception of reality. I am not sure if that is what they country has ever had, following that intervention by the are doing, although there does not seem to be anyone Government. That has hurt people in my communities asleep in the Chamber. We all seem to be wide awake— and, I am sure, in communities right across the country. certainly Labour Members are wide awake to the impact of the Government’s failure to deliver on their economic 4pm promises. Simply saying, “We’ll now call it a long-term I urge the Government to think about the proposal economic plan, because it has not quite worked out in put forward by my Front-Bench team because it is the short term”, is not going to fool anyone. really important to understand how VAT interacts and On the increase in VAT, I remember meeting with my impacts in various situations. Is increasing VAT the best local chamber of commerce. In East Lothian, we do not way of increasing income to the Treasury or does it have have large-scale manufacturing or large employers, apart a negative impact because what happens is that people from in the public sector, so the private sector is largely lose jobs and have less money to spend in the high made up of small and medium-sized enterprises. When streets? Many of the small communities in my East I asked them how they were coping with the changes in Lothian constituency have seen falls in profits, and the economy they said that the single-biggest factor for many people with their own businesses needed tax them was the VAT increase. It had done the most credits, thus taking more money out of the Treasury. If damage to their businesses. Other Members have spoken their businesses had been doing better, they would have about its impact on the poorest in our communities, but paid more into the Treasury. That is why it is so important in East Lothian it has also had an adverse impact on to gain an understanding of the impact of VAT so that entrepreneurs and businesses—the people who should future Governments will be better informed. be creating the jobs that could eradicate unemployment in my constituency. Ian Lucas: It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I want to say first how much David Wright: As my hon. Friend will have noted, the my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), new clause states that the Chancellor should produce a who is no longer in his place, has been valued in our report within three months of the passing of the Act. I economic debates. His contribution will be missed, and suspect that the Treasury already have these figures and we all wish him well for the future. could probably move more quickly. If her point about The new clause is eminently reasonable, and it should businesses is right and businesses are complaining to not be a matter of dispute between the parties in the Members, they must also be feeding this information House that such a report would make a valuable back to the Treasury, so I suspect that it already has contribution to any decision the Government take on these figures and could publish the report any time it VAT. We have had an interesting day on VAT because it wanted. was raised in Prime Minister’s questions. As hon. Members know—certainly the Minister will know—VAT is a subject Fiona O’Donnell: My hon. Friend has been doing this in which I have an interest. Throughout this Parliament, job much longer than me, so I suppose he has earned the I have pressed not just the Government Front-Bench right to be more cynical. I am still flush with the newness team but the Labour Front-Bench team on the issue of of this change of role in my life, and I would like to VAT. think that that was not the Government’s intention, but The Prime Minister is an honourable man. He has I shall bow to his longer service in this place and more made a commitment from the Dispatch Box today that expert analysis. is different from the position outlined by the Chancellor It was interesting to hear the Financial Secretary speak of the Exchequer to the Treasury Select Committee only about the role that VAT had played in the Government’s yesterday. I am interested to see the Treasury Minister short-term failed economic plan over the last five years. nodding to confirm that there has, in fact, been a He talked about the mess the previous Labour Government change in Government policy since yesterday. When I left, but the economy was growing when we left office, woke up this morning, I heard on the “Today”programme and, as other hon. Members have said, part of the reason my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) 1487 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1488

[Ian Lucas] Why did he not tell us that the Tories were going to rule out a VAT increase in the next Parliament? That is what questioning the Chancellor on the issue of VAT. I heard amazes me. What has happened between last week and the Chancellor set out the same mantra that there were this week? What happened yesterday? no plans to extend VAT or increase its rate. My What has happened, in my view, is that because the understanding of what the Prime Minister said today is Labour party, in opposition, made a commitment not that he has given a cast-iron guarantee—to use a phrase to increase VAT in the next Parliament, Lynton has that the Prime Minister has used before—not to extend been on the blower. He has said. “We are under pressure, or increase the rate of VAT. Dave. We are under pressure, Prime Minister. We have So the position has changed today, and it is a change to match the commitment that the Labour party has that I welcome. For that reason, I think that the information made. You have to rule out a VAT increase in the next requested under the new clause would be valuable. It is Parliament.” So that is why the Prime Minister made always better for us all to have more information about his statement at the Dispatch Box today—a statement the impact of tax changes. We know, of course, that this that I welcomed. Government introduced this tax change in June 2010 History will judge whether that promise will be kept. when they said that they would eliminate the deficit by We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for 2015. The plan—the “long-term economic plan”then—was Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) about to eliminate it by 2015, and part of the plan was to the history of Conservative commitments on VAT: about increase the rate of VAT. It would be valuable to know what happens before elections, and about what happens what happened as a result of the raising of VAT in after them. When I speak to my constituents over the January 2011. In my constituency, people are under real next six weeks, I shall remind them of that record. I financial pressure, and VAT affects all of us. shall remind them of what the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrats said before 2010 and what they David Wright: When the Chancellor decided to increase did afterwards, and I shall remind them of what this VAT, he must have asked Treasury officials to produce Chancellor tried to do in 2012 with the pasty tax and projections on its likely impact on the economy at that the caravan tax. point. It would be interesting, would it not, to compare the projections given to him by Treasury officials with The tax of choice for the Conservative party is VAT. an official report, which this new clause suggests should History tells us that. If the Conservatives want to be commissioned, to see whether the two tally up? increase taxes, they increase VAT. The country will have to judge whether the commitment that the Prime Minister Ian Lucas: Indeed. My hon. Friend has made a very has given today is one that will stand the test of time. valid point. I think that we should all be interested to Sheila Gilmore: It is a pleasure to serve under your know what was the impact of the last Tory-Liberal chairmanship, Mr Hood. I was also going to say that it Democrat increase in VAT, which was introduced in was a pleasure to be in the company of so many January 2011, because it should inform future policy. It Members who had participated in Finance Bill Committees seems extraordinary to me that that should be resisted. during this Parliament, but one by one they have According to the Office for National Statistics, the disappeared from the Chamber—even the hon. Member median salary in my constituency, Wrexham, has fallen for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), who has been one of the by 7.4% in the last year. The town centre is, unfortunately, most assiduous Committee members—which is a shame populated—like many other town centres throughout as I was looking forward to hearing the usually very robust the country—by too many empty shops, and part of the views they express, when we are upstairs in Committee reason for the emptying of those shops over the past at least. Presumably they have something else on their few years has been a decrease in consumer activity. mind today. What VAT does—and this is why I am passionate about The period we are in, which spans one VAT increase VAT—is take money out of the pockets of consumers to possibly another, is a very interesting one. One of the on the high street and send it straight to the Treasury. It things that the Government are trying to say—interestingly, has a massive impact on local businesses. Those of us some of the other parties are trying to say the same—is who run local businesses and employ people want to that there is no difference between the policies of the ensure that we have the best and fairest type of tax Government and the Opposition and that we would all system to develop local economies. have to make the same decisions. However, the Institute That is why I want to know what was the impact of for Fiscal Studies has clearly stated that there is a huge the 2011 VAT increase. I think that the Minister is a difference between the forward plans of the Government reasonable man. I cannot for the life of me understand and those of the Opposition. Our policies involve a why he does not want to have that information, or, if he different attitude towards spending cuts and tax increases has that information, why he does not want to share it in order to reduce the deficit over a period. That is what with the House. we said back in 2010; we were clear that we would be We have made a lot of progress today. The Prime following a different pathway. We were not deficit deniers, Minister has been dragged, kicking and screaming, to a as was sometimes suggested, but we were clear that we point at which he has ruled out a VAT increase by the had a different view on how this could best be handled Conservatives in the next Parliament—if he is ever in a and that there would therefore be fairness in our measures. position to make such a decision. That is major progress. That remains the case because, prior to the Budget, the It is certainly a change, not just from the Prime Minister’s IFS said that, given our forward plans and taxation position earlier in the current Parliament, but from the proposals, in contrast to the £55 billion of spending position that the Chancellor outlined in his Budget cuts the Conservatives would have to find, the Labour statement last Wednesday, when he set out the spending Opposition would be looking to make only £4 billion of and taxation plans that he expected to be implemented. spending cuts. More recently the IFS has said that in 1489 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1490 order to carry out our plans we would not need to make Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for her any further spending cuts in the forthcoming Government. intervention. Of course the position she sets out is exactly So that is a very big difference in our policies. From that what we saw in the early part of this Parliament when point of view, we are in a position to say not just that we VAT was increased and a number of other measures would not increase VAT, but that we have a different were put in place. At that point, inflation hit about and much fairer road to go down. 5.5%, which then allowed the Government to say, “Aren’t It is right for us to ask what the Government—whether we wonderful? We have just put pensions up by the the coalition or the Conservative party; it is not always biggest ever amount.” But that increase would have clear—would be doing. Not only have they said that come even under the old system—even under a system they need to find those spending cuts to carry out their that was simply tracking pensions to inflation—because deficit reduction proposals, but they have also suggested of the inflation rate. Pensioners were not getting some further tax reductions through the continued raising of amazing extra increase that year; there was a simple the tax threshold. At no time since that announcement tracking of what had happened, largely because of the was made by the Prime Minister at the Conservative VAT issue. party conference has there been any clarity as to where Not only have many of those low-paid people not got that money would be coming from. So not only are they any further gain to get if the tax threshold keeps increasing, clearly tied to making substantial departmental spending but they have actually lost out at the same time, because cuts, but they have not shown us how they are going to one thing that has helped to pay for all this has been the close this financial gap. That is why people are saying, reductions in things such as tax credits. Many low-paid “We think it’s going to be VAT.” It is hard to tell where people lost more in tax credits than they gained in the else it might come from. Of course, if it is coming from rise in the tax threshold. The Government keep endlessly somewhere else, we would expect that to be said. So the repeating that low-paid people are the ones who have Prime Minister stands up and says, “Oh no, we won’t be benefited, but that has not been the case in practice for increasing VAT,” but the other half of that statement many of these people, particularly those with families has not been made. We do not know how he is going to and children—they have particularly suffered. For them, square this circle. the Budget is a bit of non-event and it will continue to be so. (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): As we That is why the £12 billion of welfare cuts that have saw in 2010, what the Prime Minister says this side of been pencilled in for some two years now in various an election is not necessarily the same as what then statements by the Treasury, and by the Chancellor in happens in future Conservative Budgets. Has my hon. particular, are very important. Part of that approach Friend also pondered the quandary that they might might be to cut away further the support given to people stick to their pledge not to increase VAT this time, but in work, perhaps through the tax credits system, at they have not ruled out extending the scope of VAT to some future point. Tax credit is to be replaced by currently exempt items? universal credit, but the issue remains much the same in terms of how it tapers off and where the losses might Sheila Gilmore: That is clearly another way the come. Conservatives might seek to close this gap they have opened up for themselves. We already know that in many respects universal credit will be less beneficial for a lot of people in work, We need to know a lot more about this going forward, as they increase the hours of work they do. So how and so do the electorate. As hon. Members have said, much of this £12 billion will come from that source? VAT is a regressive tax. Even though those who have Again, people may be given a little bit with one hand, bigger spending power sometimes spend more and so through the increase in the tax threshold, but find that may, in cash terms, spend more in VAT. It is a regressive they lose as a result of what the other hand is taking. tax, as are all these indirect taxes. Our position on this is We just do not know because we have been given no clearly different: we do not believe it is right that people detail; it has been deliberately withheld, although one on low incomes should be taxed, in effect, to give other suspects that someone, somewhere has a plan. It would people tax cuts. strange if they did not have a plan. If, under welfare We have said a great deal about the 50p issue, which cuts, we are taking away things such as support for we will discuss later this afternoon, but one of my big people who are in work, it is extremely important. concerns for some considerable time has been that The other area is housing benefit, because, again, low-paid workers already under the tax threshold were that is increasingly being claimed by people who are in being offered nothing from the Government, who constantly work, not just by people who are out of work. Those talk about raising the tax threshold further. They have people who are in work will be hurt again if there are no plans to help those people any more. Those people further attempts to reduce the housing benefit bill, by face a real risk that if VAT is increased, they will end up eroding the amounts that individuals get. Again, we paying the price of a reduction in income tax from have this lack of clarity and detail. It is understandable which they will not benefit by one penny. why some of us are extremely suspicious about the alacrity with which the Prime Minister wished to distance 4.15 pm himself from a VAT increase. For all the talk about a Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend long-term economic plan, we have a lack of any clear agree that a rise in VAT will not only have an impact on policy and detail about what the Conservatives will do if the living standards of millions, but do something to they are re-elected. I hope that they will not be in inflation? Does she think, as I do, that inflation may government, so perhaps they do not need to give any well rise with a VAT rise, again inflating the costs of detail, but the people who will be voting in a few weeks’ ordinary, basic things for ordinary people? time deserve to know such things. 1491 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1492

[Sheila Gilmore] Sheila Gilmore: Yes, it is gender-made law. We will all have received a considerable number of e-mails about We should not be in the position that we were in that recently, and I am sure that the campaigners would before the 2010 election when we were promised things, be pleased to hear the Minister commit at least to such as that there would be no VAT increase, that were reviewing the situation. undone very, very quickly. I do not think that people were told about the scale of the reductions that would Fiona O’Donnell: On that issue, growing a beard is an be made. option for a man, but being unhygienic is not an option for a woman. My local food bank is increasingly having (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): to offer women sanitary products because they simply My hon. Friend is making a very good speech. She has cannot afford them. returned to the point about the scale of the cuts. Is she as concerned as I am about that? My local council has Sheila Gilmore: That is a very interesting piece of been cut by 43% since 2010. We now have 1,000 people information, and it is something that people should losing their social care packages this year. Is it not very bear in mind— frightening that what we face in the next couple of years The Temporary Chair (Mr Hood): Order. It is very are cuts that are deeper than anything we have seen interesting, but we are straying a wee bit from what we before? I find that prospect frightening for social care are supposed to be debating. and local services, which are already crippled, and for policing—for keeping our local community safe. Does Sheila Gilmore: Thank you for your guidance, Mr Hood. she feel that way, too? We have already seen what has I am sure that you would not want me to stray on to the happened— whole issue of food banks, which would probably take us to midnight. The Temporary Chair (Mr Hood): Order. In conclusion, new clause 1 would provide us with an Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for her opportunity to look at the impact of VAT changes over intervention. Clearly, those are the kinds of concern this Parliament. We believe that they have been regressive that people have. and that many of our constituents have been affected, On the VAT proposals, the changes and exemptions and we are concerned about the future. We need to look that the Government may wish to make for some worthy very carefully at what has happened before any decisions cause are welcome. I am talking here about the help for are made on further increases. We are always taken to organisations such as hospices. But there is scope to go task for proposing new clauses to Finance Bills that further. I will say something now that, although not would set up reviews, and I understand that there are Front-Bench policy, is perfectly legitimate to raise in technical difficulties. I am sure that current Government Committee. As someone who has been very involved in Members will have the same difficulty when they come housing, I know that the housing world is keen to see to scrutinise a Finance Bill in opposition in the next VAT relief on improving and restoring properties. Parliament. Perhaps we will then make the alternative VAT can make refurbishing properties more expensive criticisms. than rebuilding. Demolition and rebuild has become a It is important that we fully understand the impact of cheaper option than preserving some of our properties. the VAT changes, and not just through some kind of Having worked with many housing associations, I know impact assessment that is done theoretically, but through that there have been times when they have wanted to do an assessment of what has actually happened; they are that kind of refurbishment and preservation work, but not always the same thing. However, such proposals they had to do a massive upgrade behind that to bring have been turned down in every Finance Bill I have the homes up to the required standard. Such a VAT encountered in this Parliament. The hon. Member for exemption is something for which the housing world Dover (Charlie Elphicke)—he has still not returned to has campaigned for a long time. As we all want to his seat—and I are obviously similar; we are either increase sustainability, I hope that that is an issue that terribly keen to serve on Finance Bill Committees, or we my own Front-Bench team will reconsider when they are such a soft touch that when our Front Bench teams are in government. or Whips ask, “Wouldn’t you like to serve on the Finance Bill Committee?”, we say, “Oh, all right then.” Lyn Brown: I understand that we are not talking to a Some of us have certainly done our stints on Finance benevolent Government here, but as my hon. Friend is Bill Committees, and I am sure that we all hope to be listing what she would like to see VAT removed from, I able to do so again from a governmental position. would like to include sanitary products. I know that many of my constituents think that, as those are not Mr Gauke: We have had a lively debate and heard luxury goods, they should be exempt from VAT. I just contributions from a number of Members who could be thought that I would add that to the list of things that described as Finance Bill recidivists. I am delighted that should have VAT removed. so many of them were able to participate on this, the Sheila Gilmore: I think that campaign has taken off last occasion to debate tax matters in this Parliament. again, having been going for a considerable number of The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) years. talked about VAT on sanitary products. Under EU law, we are permitted to have a reduced rate for sanitary Lyn Brown: Decades. products—indeed, it has been reduced to 5%—but they Sheila Gilmore: Indeed. As the current campaigners are not among the products for which we can have a have noted, there is no VAT on shaving cream, but there zero rate under EU law. Consequently, without changes is on sanitary products, which suggests— at EU level, it is not possible to reduce it further. I have a lot of sympathy with the argument that is made on Lyn Brown: It suggests that men made the law. that point, but it would need to be addressed at EU level. 1493 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1494

Fiona O’Donnell: The Chancellor fought incredibly Ali, Rushanara Elliott, Julie hard in the EU to protect bankers’ bonuses, so can the Allen, Mr Graham Ellman, Mrs Louise Minister tell us what efforts the Government have made Anderson, Mr David Engel, Natascha to have that rule changed? Ashworth, Jonathan Esterson, Bill Austin, Ian Evans, Chris Mr Gauke: This has been a long-standing issue. The Bailey, Mr Adrian Farrelly, Paul Bain, Mr William Fitzpatrick, Jim experience of trying to bring in new zero rates has been Balls, rh Ed Flello, Robert very difficult. If an opportunity arose, any future Banks, Gordon Fovargue, Yvonne Government would want to pursue that. Barron, rh Kevin Francis, Dr Hywel Let me make a couple of points. We need to make Bayley, Sir Hugh Gapes, Mike progress on a number of items of business this afternoon. Beckett, rh Margaret Gardiner, Barry On living standards, this Government have taken many Begg, Dame Anne Gilmore, Sheila steps to help with living standards in difficult circumstances, Benn, rh Hilary Glindon, Mrs Mary such as the increase in the personal allowance, the Benton, Mr Joe Godsiff, Mr Roger freezing of fuel duty and the freezing of council tax. Berger, Luciana Goodman, Helen Betts, Mr Clive Greatrex, Tom With reference to the impact on small businesses, this Blackman-Woods, Roberta Green, Kate Government have a proud record of helping small Blomfield, Paul Greenwood, Lilian businesses in the current difficult circumstances, not Blunkett, rh Mr David Griffith, Nia least by introducing the employment allowance, which Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gwynne, Andrew is a cut in the jobs tax, and introducing an exemption Brennan, Kevin Hain, rh Mr Peter for under 21s starting in April, which is a cut in the jobs Brown, Lyn Hamilton, Mr David tax. The following year, there will be no jobs tax for Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Fabian apprentices under the age of 25. We have a record of Brown, Mr Russell Hancock, Mr Mike reducing the jobs tax. That is not the position of Labour. Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David My party has set out how we will reduce the deficit in Buck, Ms Karen Harris, Mr Tom Burden, Richard Havard, Mr Dai terms of departmental spending, welfare and tax evasion Burnham, rh Andy Healey, rh John and tax avoidance. Our plans are clear. The same is not Campbell, rh Mr Alan Hillier, Meg the case with the Opposition. There is a black hole in Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hilling, Julie their finances. As a consequence, the risk of a big Caton, Martin Hodge, rh Margaret increase in tax from the Opposition is clear. Their tax of Champion, Sarah Hoey, Kate choice is employers national insurance contributions. Chapman, Jenny Hopkins, Kelvin That is the one that the British public should be frightened Clark, Katy Hosie, Stewart of. The Leader of the Opposition refused to rule it out Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George earlier. I understand that a panicky press release was Clwyd, rh Ann Hunt, Tristram issued this afternoon, but the British public know very Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw clearly what will happen under a Labour Government— Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda borrowing and taxes will go up. Consequently, I urge Connarty, Michael Jamieson, Cathy the British people not to allow that to happen, and I Cooper, Rosie Jarvis, Dan Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, rh Alan urge the Committee to reject new clause 1 today. Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Question put and agreed to. Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham Clause 66 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Kevan Clause 67 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Cruddas, Jon Jones, Susan Elan Cryer, John Jowell, rh Dame Tessa New Clause 1 Cunningham, Alex Kane, Mike Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Cunningham, Sir Tony Keeley, Barbara REPORT ON IMPACT OF VALUE ADDED TAX Curran, Margaret Kendall, Liz (1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within three Dakin, Nic Khan, rh Sadiq months of the passing of this Act, publish a report on the impact Danczuk, Simon Lammy, rh Mr David of the increase in the standard rate of VAT which took effect Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lavery, Ian from 4 January 2011. David, Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark (2) The report must estimate the impact of the increase in the Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris standard rate of value added tax on— De Piero, Gloria Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma (a) living standards; Denham, rh Mr John Love, Mr Andrew (b) small businesses; Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Caroline (c) the fairness of the taxation system; and Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian (d) economic growth.—(Shabana Mahmood.) Doran, Mr Frank MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Doughty, Stephen Mactaggart, rh Fiona Brought up, and read the First time. Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Doyle, Gemma Malhotra, Seema The Committee divided: Ayes 231, Noes 305. Dromey, Jack Mann, John Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Division No. 184] [4.33 pm Durkan, Mark McCabe, Steve Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael AYES Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Abbott, Ms Diane Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Abrahams, Debbie Alexander, Heidi Efford, Clive McDonagh, Siobhain 1495 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1496

McDonald, Andy Ruane, Chris Cairns, Alun Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hayes, rh Mr John McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sarwar, Anas Carmichael, Neil Heald, Sir Oliver McGovern, Jim Sawford, Andy Cash, Sir William Heath, rh Mr David McGuire, rh Dame Anne Seabeck, Alison Chishti, Rehman Heaton-Harris, Chris McInnes, Liz Shannon, Jim Chope, Mr Christopher Hemming, John McKechin, Ann Sharma, Mr Virendra Clark, rh Greg Henderson, Gordon McKenzie, Mr Iain Sheerman, Mr Barry Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hendry, rh Charles Meale, Sir Alan Sheridan, Jim Coffey, Dr Thérèse Herbert, rh Nick Mearns, Ian Shuker, Gavin Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Miller, Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George Morden, Jessica Slaughter, Mr Andy Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Nick Crabb, rh Stephen Hopkins, Kris Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Owen Crouch, Tracey Howarth, Sir Gerald (Easington) Spellar, rh Mr John Davies, David T. C. Howell, John Mudie, Mr George Straw, rh Mr Jack (Monmouth) Hughes, rh Simon Munn, Meg Stuart, Ms Gisela Davies, Glyn Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Murphy, rh Mr Jim Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Davies, Philip Hunter, Mark Murphy, rh Paul Tami, Mark Davis, rh Mr David Huppert, Dr Julian Murray, Ian Thornberry, Emily de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Nandy, Lisa Timms, rh Stephen Dinenage, Caroline James, Margot Nash, Pamela Trickett, Jon Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Javid, rh Sajid O’Donnell, Fiona Turner, Karl Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Onwurah, Chi Twigg, Derek Drax, Richard Jenrick, Robert Osborne, Sandra Twigg, Stephen Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Owen, Albert Umunna, Mr Chuka Duncan, rh Sir , Joseph Pearce, Teresa Vaz, Valerie Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Perkins, Toby Walley, Joan Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, rh Mr David Phillipson, Bridget Watson, Mr Tom Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Pound, Stephen Weir, Mr Mike Ellison, Jane Kelly, Chris Powell, Lucy Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon Qureshi, Yasmin Whitehead, Dr Alan Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Sir Greg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Williams, Hywel Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Reed, Mr Jamie Williamson, Chris Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Reed, Mr Steve Winnick, Mr David Evans, Mr Nigel Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reeves, Rachel Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Evennett, rh Mr David Latham, Pauline Reynolds, Emma Wood, Mike Fabricant, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Fallon, rh Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Ritchie, Ms Margaret Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Robertson, Angus Field, rh Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Wright, David Robertson, John Foster, rh Mr Don Leigh, Sir Edward Wright, Mr Iain Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Fox,rhDrLiam Leslie, Charlotte Rotheram, Steve Tellers for the Ayes: Francois, rh Mr Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Roy, Mr Frank Phil Wilson and Freeman, George Lewis, Brandon Roy, Lindsay Tom Blenkinsop Freer, Mike Lewis, rh Dr Julian Fuller, Richard Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian NOES Garnier, rh Sir Edward Lidington, rh Mr David Garnier, Mark Lopresti, Jack Adams, Nigel Blackman, Bob Gauke, Mr David Loughton, Tim Afriyie, Adam Blackwood, Nicola Gibb, Mr Nick Luff, Sir Peter Aldous, Peter Blunt, Crispin Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lumley, Karen Alexander, rh Danny Boles, Nick Glen, John Macleod, Mary Amess, Sir David Bone, Mr Peter Goodwill, Mr Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Andrew, Stuart Bottomley, Sir Peter Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bradley, Karen Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Bacon, Mr Richard Brady, Mr Graham Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Karl Baker, rh Norman Brake, rh Tom Gray, Mr James McIntosh, Miss Anne Baker, Steve Bray, Angie Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen Baldry, rh Sir Tony Brazier, Mr Julian Green, rh Damian McVey, rh Esther Baldwin, Harriett Bridgen, Andrew Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Barclay, Stephen Brine, Steve Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen Barker, rh Gregory Brokenshire, James Griffiths, Andrew Miller, rh Maria Baron, Mr John Brooke, rh Annette Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Barwell, Gavin Browne, Mr Jeremy Hague, rh Mr William Milton, rh Anne Bebb, Guto Bruce, Fiona Halfon, Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hammond, Stephen Moore, rh Michael Bellingham, Mr Henry Buckland, Mr Robert Hancock, rh Matthew Mordaunt, Penny Benyon, Richard Burns, Conor Hands, rh Greg Morgan, rh Nicky Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, rh Mr Simon Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Berry, Jake Burrowes, Mr David Harrington, Richard Morris, David Bingham, Andrew Burstow, rh Paul Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Binley, Mr Brian Burt, rh Alistair Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Birtwistle, Gordon Byles, Dan Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David 1497 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1498

Mulholland, Greg Soames, rh Sir Nicholas (4) The report must estimate the impact of setting the Mundell, rh David Soubry, Anna additional rate for 2015-16 at 45 per cent and at 50 per cent on Munt, Tessa Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline the amount of income tax currently paid by someone with a Murrison, Dr Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark taxable income of— Neill, Robert Stanley, rh Sir John (a) £150,000 per year; and Newmark, Mr Brooks Stephenson, Andrew Newton, Sarah Stevenson, John (b) £1,000,000 per year.” Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Bob Norman, Jesse Stewart, Iain The Temporary Chair (Sir Roger Gale): With this it Nuttall, Mr David Stewart, Rory will be convenient to discuss clause 1 stand part and O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary clauses 2 to 5 stand part. Offord, Dr Matthew Stuart, Mr Graham Ollerenshaw, Eric Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Shabana Mahmood: It is a pleasure to serve under Opperman, Guy Sturdy, Julian your chairmanship, Sir Roger. Amendment 1 stands in Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Swales, Ian my name and those of my right hon. Friend the Member Paice, rh Sir James Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Paisley, Ian Swinson, Jo for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), my hon. Friends Parish, Neil Swire, rh Mr Hugo the Members for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) and Patel, Priti Syms, Mr Robert for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), and Pawsey, Mark Tapsell, rh Sir Peter the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). Penning, rh Mike Teather, Sarah It calls on the Chancellor to produce within three Penrose, John Thornton, Mike months of the enactment of this Bill a report on the Percy, Andrew Thurso, rh John impact of setting the additional rate of income tax at Perry, Claire Timpson, Mr Edward 50%. The report must estimate the impact of setting the Phillips, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin additional rate for 2015-16 at 45%—the current higher Pickles, rh Mr Eric Truss, rh Elizabeth rate—and at 50% on the amount of income tax currently Pincher, Christopher Turner, Mr Andrew paid by people with a taxable income of £150,000 and Prisk, Mr Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew £1 million a year. Pritchard, Mark Uppal, Paul Pugh, John Vaizey, Mr Edward As we all know, the 50p rate of tax for those earning Raab, Mr Dominic Vara, Mr Shailesh more than £150,000 was reduced to 45p by this Government Randall, rh Sir John Vickers, Martin in 2012. That was hotly debated at the time and it has Redwood, rh Mr John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa been hotly debated ever since. The Minister refers to a Rees-Mogg, Jacob Walker, Mr Charles debate on the additional rate of tax as an annual event Reevell, Simon Walker, Mr Robin whenever we discuss a Finance Bill. Government Members Reid, Mr Alan Wallace, Mr Ben may groan that the debate is rearing its head again, but I Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Ward, Mr David am, if nothing else, an optimistic person and I continue Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Watkinson, Dame Angela to hope that Government Members will be swayed by Robertson, Mr Laurence Weatherley, Mike my arguments and be persuaded to accept our eminently Rogerson, Dan Webb, rh Steve sensible and reasonable amendment. Rosindell, Andrew Wharton, James Rudd, Amber Wheeler, Heather Ruffley, Mr David White, Chris Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con) indicated dissent. Russell, Sir Bob Whittaker, Craig Rutley, David Whittingdale, Mr John Shabana Mahmood: It is a little unfair of the hon. Sanders, Mr Adrian Wiggin, Bill Gentleman to shake his head at such an early stage of Sandys, Laura Willetts, rh Mr David my speech. He should at least give me a chance to Scott, Mr Lee Williamson, Gavin develop my arguments. Selous, Andrew Willott, rh Jenny Sharma, Alok Wilson, Mr Rob Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Does my Shelbrooke, Alec Wollaston, Dr Sarah hon. Friend agree that one of the worst aspects is the Shepherd, Sir Richard Wright, rh Jeremy Simpson, rh Mr Keith massive loss to the Revenue? Am I right in recollecting Wright, Simon Skidmore, Chris that the projected annual revenue loss to the public Young, rh Sir George Smith, Chloe purse in 2011 was some £3 billion? Smith, Henry Tellers for the Noes: Smith, Julian Mel Stride and Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely Smith, Sir Robert Damian Hinds right. The measure has a static cost of £3 billion a year, and behavioural changes also have an impact. That is Question accordingly negatived. the hot debate in which the Minister and I have been engaged ever since I have been in the shadow Treasury team. Clause 1 Mr Gauke: The hon. Lady raises an interesting point CHARGE AND RATES FOR 2015-16 about the static and behavioural effects. She will be aware that the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury Shabana Mahmood: I beg to move amendment 1, said: page 2, line 1, at end insert— “We have a choice about a tax rate that would raise £3 billion”.— [Official Report, 5 November 2014; Vol. 587, c. 849.] “(3) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, within three months of the passing of this Act, publish a report on the impact Does she believe that putting the 45p rate back to 50p of setting the additional rate of income tax at 50 per cent. would raise £3 billion for the Exchequer? 1499 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1500

Shabana Mahmood: The Minister is tempting me to Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely go further than I want to at this stage, because I am right. I was coming on to exactly that point. This is a going to develop exactly those arguments about the costing, question about living standards: what is happening to what the measure is likely to raise, and the inherent the poorest in our society and where the burden should uncertainty in the Government’s work and the report ultimately rest for sorting out the nation’s finances after that they produced. The Minister will be welcome to the global financial crisis. intervene once I have reached that point in my speech. At the Budget last week, the Chancellor would have had us believe that people are on average £900 better off Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): As always when as well as more secure as the result of his policies. I have it comes to talking about the 50p tax rate, my hon. to hand it to him—he has been highly innovative in Friend is incredibly persuasive. Does she not find it using a new measure of living standards to try to back strange that the Government are projecting a £7 billion up his claim, but it includes income to universities and tax cut but refusing to raise tax in this way, so the only charities. I do not blame him for trying, but he knows conclusion the public can come to is that they must be the truth, as do Members and the public, which is that looking to break their promise and raise VAT? people say time and again that they are worse off. A poll Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is both generous of 5,000 consumers’ responses to the Budget showed and correct. Members who were here for the last debate that three quarters of people have seen no improvement will know that Government Members utterly failed to in their living standards. A Populus poll before Christmas meet the charge levelled at them, which was that the found that only one in seven adults said they were combination of their history on VAT and what they feeling the benefit of recent economic growth. wish to achieve in the next Parliament means that a As my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish VAT rise is inevitable if the Conservative party is elected (Andrew Gwynne) has said, wages after inflation are to government in a few weeks’ time. down by £1,600, and the combined impact of tax and We know that the Government’s decision to reduce benefit changes has left families on average £1,127 a the top rate of tax for those earning more than £150,000 year worse off. That was the context in which it was is as much at the heart of the current political debate decided to reduce the additional rate of tax to 45p, today and in the next few weeks as it was in 2012. The giving millionaires a tax cut worth an average of £100,000, debate is about where we raise revenue from and who which is a huge sum of money by any standards. As I we ask to shoulder the burden to help bring down the have just said, wages are down by £1,600 a year, tax and deficit further. benefit changes have left people £1,127 worse off, and, as we heard in the previous debate, higher VAT has left Ian Swales: I know that the shadow Minister was not people £1,800 worse off over four years. For people at a key part of the previous Government, but does she the bottom end of the income spectrum, such sums are believe that the right shoulders to bear the burden were the difference between being able to put food on the those of people on minimum wage, who were paying table and to put clothes on their children’s back or not, £1,000 in tax? The highest rate of income tax was 40% while the choices for those at the other end of the for every single day but one that Labour sat on the income spectrum, who are benefiting from a tax cut to Government Benches. the tune of £100,000, are probably about the poshness of the car on the forecourt of their home, not the basic Shabana Mahmood: I was not a Member at that time, necessities of life and of survival. That is the important so I was not a part of that Government at all, but I am point for struggling families across our country. proud of the previous Government’s record over 13 years. The hon. Gentleman will know that we raised the top David Wright: Is my hon. Friend interested, as I am, rate of tax to 50p in response to the global financial in the line developed by the Liberal Democrats that the crisis, and that was the right thing to do—[Interruption.] 50p rate was in place only at the end of the previous He asked about the minimum wage and mentions it yet Labour Government for a very short time? again from a sedentary position, but we were the Government who introduced the minimum wage in Ian Swales: One day. legislation. That was one of our proudest achievements, and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, David Wright: Indeed. This is all about the choices Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) told me last week that the last made to bring down the deficit. We made a choice—a all-night sitting of the House of Commons was when forward offer or plan—to use a higher top rate of the Labour Government introduced the national minimum income tax to bring down the deficit, and the Liberal wage. Labour Members were in the House at eight in Democrats decided to vote against that strategy. the morning to vote it through and they were absolutely right to do so. Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) always Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right takes part in Finance Bill debates, and he always makes to recognise the importance of the national minimum one point in exactly the same way. I sometimes wish wage to many people in this country. Of course, tax that he would listen to the answer he gets when he does changes are one side of the equation, and the other has so. The answer is that the top rate was increased as a been the changes to tax credits, which benefited many specific response to get down the deficit after the global people under the previous Government. Is it not the financial crisis. It was the fair and right thing to do case that we have seen a £3 billion cut for the very then. It was unfair and wrong to decrease the rate from richest with the cut in the 50p rate, at a time when 50p to 45p, which he, as a member of one of the parties average families are £1,100 worse off as a result of the of government, supported. It will be right for the next tax and tax credit changes? Labour Government to raise it to 50p again. 1501 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1502

Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The hon. Lady in their attitude towards taxes. I did not really know is absolutely right that that rate of tax should have gone where to go with that, but I listened on. He said that it up to 50p during the downturn and that it should not was because Margaret Thatcher had had a 60% tax rate have been cut. She is equally right to compare the tax for some years, only getting rid of it in 1988. He said cut for millionaires with the poverty of ordinary people, that the current Government, who seem to idolise Margaret so why did Labour Members sit on their hands when we Thatcher, might take a leaf out of her book. He had had the one opportunity not to have a tax cut for been a Tory voter, but stopped being one simply because millionaires? of the unfairness of the rate going down from 50p to 45p. I never thought that I would stand here urging Shabana Mahmood: One of the things about the Conservative Members to be more Thatcherite, but to annual debate on the 50p rate is that the usual suspects represent such views fairly I think it is my duty. make the same points in exactly the same way. We have heard that point from several members of the hon. Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend has acquitted Gentleman’s party. I say to him what I have always herself of that duty in her usual brilliant way. We may said—that we have had a consistent approach to the top not be able to persuade the Conservatives to be fully rate of tax. There has been no change to that, and we Thatcherite, but getting them part of the way there will put it up to 50p if we are elected in a few short would be welcome. If they cannot bring themselves to weeks’ time. support bringing back the 50p rate, which of course they will not, they should at least support our amendment. 5pm As I said, it comes down to a simple question: is the burden of deficit reduction and dealing with the fall-out We can look at the difference between people at from the global financial crisis being shared fairly across the top and bottom end of the income spectrum— all parts of our society? The amendment is genuinely the millionaires who have had a huge tax cut and are intended to shed some light on that. £100,000 a year better off, and the people who are struggling and £1,100 a year worse off. How must it feel to the ordinary taxpayer, and to hundreds of thousands Ian Murray: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for of people working on zero-hours contracts, to be told giving way again. She is always incredibly generous, that while they struggle on, a tiny number of people in especially in Committee debates on Finance Bills. our country will be given a tax cut that could buy a If the Government are correct in their assertions house in many parts of the country, including my own about tax take and behavioural change—that a 45p rate city? That is the stark reality of the choices that the generates more than a 50p rate and is fairer—does my Government have made. hon. Friend share my surprise that they object to bringing The Government’s last Budget has told people what forward a report that would tell us exactly that? is coming. The spending cuts that the Chancellor has proposed for the next three years will be deeper than Shabana Mahmood: That is exactly the point. If the those in the past five years, and things will continue to Government have nothing to hide and nothing to fear be tight for many families. They want to know that the from all the data being out there for us to interrogate, load is being shared fairly, but that one decision tells us they should accept our amendment and get on with the that it is not. review that we have called for. They should have got on with it when we first called for it, immediately after they Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ made the change to the rate. Our amendment genuinely Co-op): My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Is seeks to shine light on what has been happening to not one example of how the burden is not being shared people’s incomes and the impact of changes to the top fairly the fact that, as we were reminded earlier today, rate of tax. When the Government commissioned their there was one food bank in Scotland when Labour left report, the data were not extensive, and the report has office, but there are now 50? I am sure that example been contentious from the minute it came off the printer. could be repeated throughout the entire country, and it The reasons for that go to the thrust of what the emphasises the inequitable nature of the Government’s Financial Secretary was asking me earlier, and I will policies. come on to those points shortly. As we have heard, the Labour Government introduced Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely the 50p rate. It came into effect in 2010-11 and was a right. In fact, when I was talking about VAT in my decision made after the financial crisis as we sought to constituency yesterday, I was struck by the number of get the deficit down. There was nothing in the coalition people I met who were in work but using food banks. agreement about abolishing the 50p rate, but in 2011 They are trying to do the right thing and working as HMRC was asked to look into it and the yields it hard as they possibly can, yet they still cannot put food produced. It did not take a genius to work out that the on the table. How must it feel for them to find themselves Chancellor was thinking about cutting the top rate of in that situation and to know that under the current tax, and in 2012 with HMRC’s report, the Exchequer Government, a millionaire is better off to the tune of a effected a 50% additional rate of income tax to back up hundred grand a year? I would say that it feels pretty the Chancellor cutting the rate to 45p. rubbish, and that is what my constituents are telling me every day. Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend talks about the work done by HMRC. Is that almost the same piece of Lyn Brown: I was on the phones canvassing the other work that the Labour amendment would require the week, and a man from a neighbouring constituency said Government to do, in that it would show an analysis of that he felt the Government should be more Thatcherite how much money the 45p rate is bringing in and how 1503 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1504

[Andrew Gwynne] Shabana Mahmood: I was here for that debate and my hon. Friend the shadow Chief Secretary was recognising much the 50p rate would bring in? It would also allow that the first thing we start with is the static costing. hon. Members to have a proper debate about the proportion That is the only certain figure we have and that starts us of taxes that should go towards deficit reduction as off at £3 billion. We have, of course, to make an opposed to spending cuts. allowance for behavioural change and that will impact on the yield, but the calculation for how we get to Shabana Mahmood: As ever, my hon. Friend is absolutely understanding the behavioural change is the bone of right, and it is precisely to get that additional data that contention between the Financial Secretary and me. we have tabled this and similar amendments ever since the change was made. Why would the Government go through the process of looking at yield and getting HMRC Mr Gauke: The hon. Lady is making a perfectly to produce a report in 2011? That is important, because sensible point now, but it is a very different point to that everyone knew—both at the time and ever since—that made by the shadow Chief Secretary. He did not say, there were not enough data to come to an accurate view “The static cost is this, but then there is the behavioural about yield as the rate had not been in place long enough. cost” and so on. He said that it was To put it bluntly, the Chancellor probably felt that some “a tax rate that would raise £3 billion”—[Official Report, 5 November people might not agree with his decision to give people 2014; Vol. 587, c. 849.] earning more than £150,000 a massive tax cut, given the It sounds to me that the hon. Lady does not agree with state of the rest of the economy and the crushing of that. She is not claiming that it would raise £3 billion. Is people’s living standards on his watch. What he needed my interpretation of what she is saying correct? to back his decision was a report that said that the 50p rate hardly raised anything at all, which is precisely Shabana Mahmood: My interpretation of what the what the HMRC report said. After analysing a host of Minister is saying is that he is making a valiant attempt facts and figures, the report concluded that a cut that would, at trying to create something out of nothing. As I said, I by the Government’s initial estimates, cost £3 billion— was here for that debate and I remember that exchange the so-called static cost—excluding all behavioural changes very well. The Financial Secretary and my hon. Friend would cost only £100 million. the shadow Chief Secretary had a bit of to-ing and The trouble with the report is that, as everyone fro-ing over the static costing, but the rest of the debate acknowledges, there are too many uncertain variables and everything my hon. Friend said was absolutely to be anywhere near sure that the figure of £100 million clear. It has always been our position that we start with is even close to reality. The report was based on only the static costing and that is not in doubt: it is £3 billion. one year’s worth of data relating to 2010-11. That is a The question then is: what happens when we allow for significant weakness, since we know that some incomes the impact of behavioural change? My contention—it were taken earlier to avoid the extra tax. Further detail has always been our contention; it is exactly what the is now available, including for the tax years of 2011-12 shadow Chief Secretary said in his remarks in that and 2012-13 when the 50p rate was still in place. The debate on that day—is that the extent of behavioural writers of the 2011 report did not have those data change, as envisaged in the 2011 report, was based on available, so their report is therefore lacking. That could an uncertain set of figures and that we have much more be remedied were the Government to accept our data now to be able to get to a certain point. amendment. The report attempts to quantify behavioural change. Mr Gauke: rose— The scale of behavioural change is primarily based on an assessment of taxable income elasticity—basically Shabana Mahmood: I am not going to give way again, the extent to which taxable income changes when the because I have very little time. The Minister can pick tax rate changes. The IFS says that there is a margin of the point up again in debate and I am sure he will do so. error within calculations for the 2011 report, and that It is not sufficient for Government Members simply staying within that margin of error one could easily say, to point at the increased yield following the rate cut to depending on taxable income elasticity, that cutting the 45p and deem that their point has been proved. Just as rate of tax could cost the Exchequer £700 million or people brought forward their incomes before the rate could raise £600 million. That gives an idea of the range was introduced, so people held off taking income until of figures we are talking about and of how uncertain the rate was lowered. We know the increase in yield at such projections are. 45p was due primarily to record bonuses, which were up I return to my central point: more data are now 80% in the year after the rate was reduced. If the truth is available and could help to calculate a truer picture of what is sought, then rigorous analysis is what is required. the yield of a 50p tax rate as opposed to a rate of 45p. If The blunt truth, however, is that the truth is not what is Conservative Members are so certain that their position being sought here by the Government. The decision was on the abolition of the 50p rate is true, why will they not taken for ideological reasons. There is no other justification. agree to the scrutiny that the amendment suggests? The abolition of the 50p rate was nothing other than a Mr Gauke: I come back again to what the hon. huge tax cut for the very richest, while ordinary families Lady’s colleague, the shadow Chief Secretary, said from continued to struggle, and struggle for longer. the Opposition Dispatch Box, when he referred to the There is growth in the economy and that is welcome, 50p rate as but it has been a long time coming. It is ordinary “a tax rate that would raise £3 billion”.—[Official Report, 5 November families who have ended up paying the price. That is 2014; Vol. 587, c. 849.] why we have continued to press home the point about Does she stand behind the statement that the 50p rate the top rate of tax. While ordinary families are paying would raise £3 billion? the price, we have let the very wealthiest in our country 1505 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1506 have a huge tax cut. That cannot be right. A top rate of It would be fair to say that when the 50p rate was tax at 50p will play an important role towards fair introduced by the previous Government, they made deficit reduction under the next Labour Government. If allowances for behavioural effects. The question is whether the Government have absolutely nothing to hide or fear it was sufficient. in the facts and figures behind the cut from 50p to 45p, When HMRC looked at this again, it was clear that they should accept our amendment to clause 1. the behavioural effect was greater than anticipated by the previous Government. Indeed, it is quite possible that it Mr Gauke: It is a great pleasure to serve under your cost the Exchequer money. So let me take this opportunity chairmanship, Sir Roger. to assure hon. Members once more that the Government First, I shall say a word about the clauses in this already consider the impacts of any policy decisions group. Clause 1 provides the charge and sets the rates taken, and they take the behavioural effects into account. for income tax for 2015-16; clause 2 relates to limits and The simple point is that the 50p rate was failing to raise allowances; clause 3 sets the personal allowance for the money anticipated. 2015-16 at £10,600; clause 4 relates to the basic rate limits; and clause 5 sets the personal allowance for Ian Swales: People find some of these behavioural 2016-17 at £10,800 and for 2017-18 at £11,000. That is a effects hard to imagine. One of them, of course, was dramatic increase on the rate we inherited in 2010, when that under the previous Government somebody paying it was below £6,500, and makes good progress towards tax at that kind of rate could put £250,000 into a the target that my party and the Liberal Democrats pension fund and save all the tax—£125,000. The maximum have set of £12,500 by the end of the next Parliament. that can be saved now is £18,000. Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend raises an important point. 5.15 pm There are a number of behavioural effects. Sometimes Income tax is the Government’s biggest revenue source, when we have this debate, there is a tendency for Opposition and the annual charge, legislated for in the Finance Bill, Members to say, “Ah, behavioural effects. You are just is essential for its continued collection. In 2015-16, talking about tax avoidance.” Tax avoidance can be an there will be about 30 million income tax payers, and element, but it can also be behaviour that is clearly clause 1 states that they will pay income tax this year at compliant both with the letter and the spirit of the tax the same rates as in 2014-15. The basic and higher rates system yet will reduce yield. Increasing contributions to remain at 20% and 40%, and the additional rate is 45%. pension schemes, for example, could result in a reduction On Monday, Labour voted against the Budget resolution in revenue. It could be that somebody decides to relocate renewing income tax, but thankfully it was defeated. It out of the United Kingdom. It could be—an important would have put a £150 billion hole in the public finances— point that gets to the heart of why we reduced the tax— reckless even for Labour. I can only hope it was a that international businesses in deciding where to locate symbolic vote that they had no desire to win. It was staff might conclude that the costs of doing so in the perhaps more a protest vote than anything else. UK are greater than elsewhere, and that there are better climates and environments in which to locate highly Ian Murray: It would have been popular. paid staff. Those are some of the behavioural impacts that are a Mr Gauke: None the less, under this Chancellor and consequence of having an uncompetitive rate of income this Government, we will stick to the long-term economic tax. That is one of the challenges that Governments plan and avoid populist giveaways that could damage have to face. To be fair, the previous Labour Government, the public finances. for the vast majority of their time in office—this point I could spend some time on these clauses—they are a has already been made by my hon. Friend the Member significant achievement for the Government and I am for Redcar (Ian Swales)—did not increase the 40p income delighted we are making further progress on increasing the tax rate. Tony Blair was very clear that in his view personal allowance—but I shall deal with amendment 1, increasing the rate above 40p would be a mistake. We tabled by the Opposition. It is the annual debate we have taken the view that it was right to reduce the rate have on these matters; it is familiar to me and, I suspect, down to 45p, but the important question remains of to you, Sir Roger. It proposes that the Government publish what is the purpose of having a high rate of income tax. a report reviewing the impact of setting the additional Is it to raise revenue or is it simply about sending a rate at 50% within three months of passing the Bill. In signal? If it is to raise revenue, we have to ask ourselves addition, it asks for an assessment of how much it will raise. “the impact of setting the additional rate for 2015-16 at 45 per This is why I return to the comments—I cited them cent and 50 per cent on the amount of income tax currently paid accurately and in context earlier—made by the shadow by someone with a taxable income of…£150,000…and…£1,000,000 per year.” Chief Secretary on 5 November: To be credible, such an analysis would need to take “We have a choice about a tax rate”— behavioural impacts into account, like the HMRC report he is clearly talking about the 50p rate— on the additional rate published at Budget 2012. Simply “that would raise £3 billion, and it is important that we take that looking at theoretical income tax liabilities when increasing opportunity to tackle our deficit, rather than giving that money taxes is not enough. For perhaps the first time in a long away to those people who are already in an extremely privileged time in these debates, we might have made a bit of position.”—[Official Report, 5 November 2014; Vol. 587, c. 849.] progress in trying to understand Labour’s position. The He is talking about raising £3 billion. I pressed the hon. HMRC report concluded that the underlying yield from Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) the introduction of the 50p rate was much lower than on two or three occasions because she was making a originally forecast owing to large behavioural effects. different argument. She was saying that the static cost is 1507 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1508

[Mr Gauke] for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood). There is a degree of uncertainty. Is that not exactly why he £3 billion, and then it is a question of working out what should support the amendment? the dynamic and behavioural effect will be so that we have a true and accurate position on how much this tax Mr Gauke: I accept that I can be carried away with will raise. That is a perfectly reasonable point—it is not party-political knockabout. I look to the hon. Gentleman possible to disagree with the fact that there is a static as a statesman who rises above such lowly behaviour, number, but that is not terribly helpful in guiding us and I shall always seek to emulate his balanced and towards a sensible policy, because we have to know the considered approach to the House of Commons. behavioural effects. Let me be clear. The hon. Lady is clearly stepping away from the suggestion that this will raise £3 billion— Ian Swales: I thank the Minister for giving way again. He is being very generous with his time. Shabana Mahmood: Not at all. As assessment has been made by an independent group, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which came up Mr Gauke: Given that the hon. Lady has said that, I with a figure of about £100 million. Labour Members will certainly give way to her. If she is not stepping away have used the word “exact”. Does the Minister reject from how much this would raise, I would be interested the idea that the amount can ever be estimated exactly, to hear what she is saying and how much she thinks it partly because of the behavioural factors to which he would raise. referred a few minutes ago?

Shabana Mahmood: If the Minister was listening to Mr Gauke: That is a very good point, which leads me my speech, he would know that I am asking for a report to the two quotations that I was about to give. Paul to give us a better idea of what this measure will Johnson, the head of the IFS, said in a paper that was raise—including all the data to hand from the additional published on 27 January 2014: years in which the rate was in place but not included in “The best available estimate of what reversing the cut would the 2011 HMRC report. All I can say to him on the figures raise is therefore about £100 million too.” is that the only certain figure we have is the £3 billion static cost. I accept that behavioural change will bring He also said that that down and decrease the yield, but neither he nor I “the best evidence we have still suggests that raising the top rate of can say, with hands on our holy books, that we know tax would raise little revenue and make, at best, a marginal the exact number. That explains what I have asked for in contribution to reducing the budget deficit an incoming government the amendment. I believe this could be a revenue-raising would face after the next election.” measure to get the deficit down in a fairer way. The extent to which we can do that is the thrust of my Fiona O’Donnell rose— amendment. Ian Murray rose— Mr Gauke: We are making further progress. The hon. Lady has now explicitly said that the 50p rate will not Mr Gauke: I am spoilt for choice, but ladies first. raise £3 billion. [Interruption.] She has explicitly said that, because she has accepted that there will be a behavioural effect that will bring the amount down. I do Fiona O’Donnell: I thank the Minister for his generosity not know why she is complaining and chuntering, because in giving way again. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has she has just made the unarguable point that the amount said that the Government’s plans for tax cuts by 2020 raised will be less than the static cost. That is not the would cost £7.2 billion. Can he tell us where that money point that the shadow Chief Secretary was trying to would come from? make. Labour politicians are generally very good at saying, Mr Gauke: We have a record of increasing the personal “It is a £3 billion giveaway”, in an attempt to give the allowance. This is a very good time to make that point, impression that it will be a £3 billion increase in revenue. as we are debating, among other things, clauses 1 to 5, I accept that the shadow Chief Secretary probably under which the personal allowance will move up to misspoke, and that when he said that the 50p rate would £11,000 during the next few years. We have a record of raise £3 billion, he was getting a little carried away. Labour being able to deliver big increases in the allowance, and politicians usually avoid saying, “It will raise £3 billion”, that is what we will do. for the very good reason that that is a completely Let me now press on. The economic recovery is well unsupportable position. To be fair to the hon. Member under way, and last year Britain grew faster than any other for Birmingham, Ladywood, she is not making that major advanced economy in the world. The Government case today. However, I wish to point out that even the will not consider any action that would put the United Labour party does not believe that the 50p rate will Kingdom’s recovery at risk. While the additional rate raise £3 billion, which it clearly will not. has been reduced to ensure that the UK remains internationally competitive, the Government’s policy is Andrew Gwynne: I appreciate that we are five and a to repeatedly increase the tax contribution of the wealth. half weeks from a general election, so we can exchange The share of income tax paid by the top 1% of taxpayers party-political knockabout. Having said that, I would is projected to rise from 25.1% in 2010-11 to 27.3% in politely say to the Minister that the point he is making—very 2014-15, which means that they are expected to pay a eloquently, I must say, if I am being fair to him—is greater share of income tax in 2014-15 than in any year precisely the point made by my hon. Friend the Member under the last Government. 1509 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1510

5.30 pm Francis, Dr Hywel Mitchell, Austin I should add that the 50p rate was one of the most Gapes, Mike Morden, Jessica Gardiner, Barry Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) uncompetitive income tax rates in the G20 and it is Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. about time the Opposition simply accepted that it did Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) not work. The Government need to spend their resources Godsiff, Mr Roger Mudie, Mr George effectively and efficiently, and the Treasury and HMRC Goodman, Helen Munn, Meg have no plans to introduce rolling annual reports on the Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Paul impact of changes in tax rates. Nevertheless the Government Green, Kate Murray, Ian always keep tax rates under review and monitor receipts, Greenwood, Lilian Nandy, Lisa and on this basis I do not believe the amendment is Griffith, Nia Nash, Pamela necessary, and I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw it. Gwynne, Andrew O’Donnell, Fiona Clause 1 allows the Government to collect income Hain, rh Mr Peter Onwurah, Chi Hamilton, Mr David Osborne, Sandra tax, something I am sure both sides will agree is essential, Hamilton, Fabian Owen, Albert notwithstanding the votes on the Budget resolutions. Hanson, rh Mr David Pearce, Teresa Let me stress again that the impact of reducing the Harris, Mr Tom Perkins, Toby additional rate of income tax has been examined in Havard, Mr Dai Phillipson, Bridget great detail. The 50p rate was both ineffective at raising Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen revenue and meant risking the recovery everyone in this Hillier, Meg Powell, Lucy country is working hard for. As a result the report Hilling, Julie Qureshi, Yasmin proposed by the Opposition in amendment 1 is entirely Hodge, rh Margaret Raynsford, rh Mr Nick unnecessary, and I move that clause 1 stand part of the Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Bill without the amendment. Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Steve Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Rachel The Committee divided: Ayes 230, Noes 309. Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Division No. 185] [5.31 pm Hunt, Tristram Robertson, Angus Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John AYES Jackson, Glenda Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Jamieson, Cathy Rotheram, Steve Abbott, Ms Diane Connarty, Michael Jarvis, Dan Roy, Mr Frank Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, Rosie Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Alexander, Heidi Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Ali, Rushanara Crausby, Mr David Jones, Mr Kevan Sarwar, Anas Allen, Mr Graham Creagh, Mary Jones, Susan Elan Sawford, Andy Anderson, Mr David Creasy, Stella Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Seabeck, Alison Ashworth, Jonathan Cruddas, Jon Kane, Mike Shannon, Jim Austin, Ian Cryer, John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Mr Jim Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Sir Tony Khan, rh Sadiq Shuker, Gavin Banks, Gordon Curran, Margaret Lammy, rh Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Barron, rh Kevin Dakin, Nic Lavery, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Bayley, Sir Hugh Danczuk, Simon Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Nick Beckett, rh Margaret Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Smith, Owen Begg, Dame Anne David, Wayne Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Spellar, rh Mr John Benn, rh Hilary Davidson, Mr Ian Love, Mr Andrew Straw, rh Mr Jack Benton, Mr Joe De Piero, Gloria Lucas, Caroline Stuart, Ms Gisela Berger, Luciana Denham, rh Mr John Lucas, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Betts, Mr Clive Docherty, Thomas MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Tami, Mark Blackman-Woods, Roberta Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mactaggart, rh Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Blomfield, Paul Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Shabana Thornberry, Emily Blunkett, rh Mr David Dowd, Jim Mann, John Timms, rh Stephen Brennan, Kevin Doyle, Gemma Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Brown, Lyn Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dugher, Michael McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Brown, Mr Russell Durkan, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Stephen Bryant, Chris Eagle, Ms Angela McClymont, Gregg Umunna, Mr Chuka Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Maria McDonagh, Siobhain Vaz, Valerie Burden, Richard Edwards, Jonathan McDonald, Andy Walley, Joan Burnham, rh Andy Efford, Clive McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Watson, Mr Tom Campbell, rh Mr Alan Elliott, Julie McDonnell, John Weir, Mr Mike Campbell, Mr Ronnie Ellman, Mrs Louise McFadden, rh Mr Pat Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Caton, Martin Engel, Natascha McGovern, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Champion, Sarah Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Dame Anne Williams, Hywel Chapman, Jenny Evans, Chris McInnes, Liz Williamson, Chris Clark, Katy Farrelly, Paul McKechin, Ann Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Winnick, Mr David Clwyd, rh Ann Flello, Robert Meale, Sir Alan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coaker, Vernon Flynn, Paul Mearns, Ian Wishart, Pete Coffey, Ann Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, Andrew Wood, Mike 1511 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1512

Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Tellers for the Ayes: Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Wright, David Stephen Doughty and Hollingbery, George Offord, Dr Matthew Wright, Mr Iain Tom Blenkinsop Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy Howarth, Sir Gerald Osborne, rh Mr George NOES Howell, John Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Adams, Nigel Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon Paice, rh Sir James Afriyie, Adam Davis, rh Mr David Hunter, Mark Parish, Neil Aldous, Peter de Bois, Nick Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Alexander, rh Danny Dinenage, Caroline Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark Amess, Sir David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Penning, rh Mike Andrew, Stuart Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penrose, John Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Drax, Richard Jenrick, Robert Percy, Andrew Bacon, Mr Richard Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Baker, rh Norman Duncan, rh Sir Alan Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Baker, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, rh Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Baldry, rh Sir Tony Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Baldwin, Harriett Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Barclay, Stephen Ellison, Jane Kirby, Simon Pritchard, Mark Barker, rh Gregory Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Sir Greg Pugh, John Baron, Mr John Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Raab, Mr Dominic Barwell, Gavin Eustice, George Lancaster, Mark Randall, rh Sir John Bebb, Guto Evans, Graham Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Redwood, rh Mr John Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Mr Nigel Latham, Pauline Rees-Mogg, Jacob Benyon, Richard Evennett, rh Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Reevell, Simon Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Berry, Jake Fallon, rh Michael Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Bingham, Andrew Field, rh Mark Leigh, Sir Edward Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Binley, Mr Brian Foster, rh Mr Don Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Mr Laurence Birtwistle, Gordon Fox,rhDrLiam Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Blackman, Bob Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Blackwood, Nicola Freeman, George Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Blunt, Crispin Freer, Mike Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Lidington, rh Mr David Russell, Sir Bob Bone, Mr Peter Garnier, rh Sir Edward Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rutley, David Bottomley, Sir Peter Garnier, Mark Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian Bradley, Karen Gauke, Mr David Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Brady, Mr Graham George, Andrew Luff, Sir Peter Scott, Mr Lee Brake, rh Tom Gibb, Mr Nick Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Bray, Angie Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Macleod, Mary Shapps, rh Grant Brazier, Mr Julian Glen, John Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Bridgen, Andrew Goodwill, Mr Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Brine, Steve Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Shepherd, Sir Richard Brokenshire, James Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Simmonds, rh Mark Brooke, rh Annette Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Karl Simpson, rh Mr Keith Browne, Mr Jeremy Gray, Mr James McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Bruce, Fiona Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen Smith, Chloe Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Green, rh Damian McVey, rh Esther Smith, Henry Buckland, Mr Robert Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Burley, Mr Aidan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Burns, Conor Griffiths, Andrew Miller, rh Maria Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Burns, rh Mr Simon Gummer, Ben Mills, Nigel Soubry, Anna Burrowes, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam Milton, rh Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burstow, rh Paul Halfon, Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark Burt, rh Alistair Hames, Duncan Moore, rh Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Byles, Dan Hammond, Stephen Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Cairns, Alun Hancock, rh Matthew Morgan, rh Nicky Stevenson, John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hands, rh Greg Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark Morris, David Stewart, Iain Cash, Sir William Harrington, Richard Morris, James Stewart, Rory Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Mosley, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Chope, Mr Christopher Hart, Simon Mowat, David Stuart, Mr Graham Clark, rh Greg Harvey, Sir Nick Mulholland, Greg Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David Sturdy, Julian Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hayes, rh Mr John Munt, Tessa Swales, Ian Collins, Damian Heald, Sir Oliver Murray, Sheryll Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Colvile, Oliver Heath, rh Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Swinson, Jo Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Neill, Robert Swire, rh Mr Hugo Crabb, rh Stephen Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Syms, Mr Robert Crouch, Tracey Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Davies, David T. C. Hendry, rh Charles Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Thornton, Mike 1513 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1514

Thurso, rh John Wheeler, Heather Andrew Gwynne: Is not a theme developing today: the Timpson, Mr Edward White, Chris extent to which tax cuts and spending cuts should Tomlinson, Justin Whittaker, Craig contribute towards deficit reduction and, with regard to Truss, rh Elizabeth Whittingdale, Mr John tax cuts, who should benefit? As with the debates on Turner, Mr Andrew Wiggin, Bill VAT and the 50p tax rate, we are arguing for greater Tyrie, Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David consideration to be given to small businesses, because Uppal, Paul Williams, Stephen Vaizey, Mr Edward larger businesses have already benefited from corporation Williamson, Gavin tax cuts. Vara, Mr Shailesh Willott, rh Jenny Vickers, Martin Wilson, Mr Rob Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wollaston, Dr Sarah Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is right. This Walker, Mr Charles Wright, rh Jeremy comes back to the impact of the choices being made—who Walker, Mr Robin Wright, Simon is being prioritised and who is not, who is bearing the Wallace, Mr Ben Young, rh Sir George greater share of the burden and who is not. That is the Ward, Mr David Zahawi, Nadhim material point. Watkinson, Dame Angela We know that the Government’s impact assessment Weatherley, Mike Tellers for the Noes: Webb, rh Steve Damian Hinds and prepared for the 2014 Budget estimates that the cost to Wharton, James Mel Stride the Exchequer of the corporation tax cut would be some £400 million in 2015-16, £785 million in 2016-17 and £865 million the following year. In the 2015 Budget Question accordingly negatived. Red Book the estimates are revised upwards: for 2015-16 Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. £550 million, for 2016-17 £1.045 billion, and for 2017-18 Clauses 2 to 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill. £1.1 billion. Those are not insignificant sums for a policy that affects a relatively small number of businesses. That is exactly my hon. Friend’s point. Clause 6 The Government estimate that some 40,000 businesses pay the main rate of corporation tax and a further CHARGE FOR FINANCIAL YEAR 2016 41,000 businesses pay at the marginal relief rate. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills estimates that the UK has some 5.2 million private 5.45 pm sector businesses, the majority of which—3.9 million—are Shabana Mahmood: I beg to move amendment 2, sole proprietorships, and 1 million have fewer than page 3, line 39, at end insert— 10 employees. Clearly, if about 81,000 businesses benefit from the corporation tax cut, the opposite is also true— “(3) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall undertake a review, within six months of the passing of this Act, of the 5.1 million businesses do not benefit in any way from impact of a cut of one per cent to the main rate of Corporation that rate change. Tax for financial year 2016, with particular reference to— The Government believe that a further cut in the (a) the impact on businesses with fewer than 50 employees; corporation tax rate makes UK plc a more attractive place to invest and a more attractive destination for (b) the impact on investment by businesses with fewer than 50 employees; and business to locate. The Minister and I have often debated the importance of the headline rate of corporation tax (c) alternative tax measures, including non-domestic rates, when that judgment call is made by businesses. It is which would have a greater benefit for businesses with fewer than 50 employees. important—a point that I have made on several occasions—but it is worth noting that on the former (4) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must publish the report point it is far from clear that this is the case. We know of the review and lay the report before the House.”. that business investment fell from 8.2% of GDP in 2010 to 7.8% in 2013. That should not come as a big surprise. The Temporary Chair (Sir Roger Gale): With this it will be convenient to discuss clause stand part. Businesses tell us that they face a range of issues and that their decisions about where to locate and where to Shabana Mahmood: The review proposed in remain and invest are not based only on the headline amendment 2 would give us a better understanding of rate of corporation tax. They take many other factors the factors that are helping small businesses to grow into account, such as infrastructure and the skills available and those that are limiting their expansion. Most small in the labour market. Businesses often say that these and medium-sized businesses with a smaller number of factors are very important to their decision making, but employees tend to be run from premises that have a they worry that under this Government those are areas rateable value of below £50,000. I should say at the of policy have not gone in the right direction. outset—the Minister and I have had this debate before—that Labour does not oppose the recent changes to the rate Ian Swales: This is one point on which I think we can of corporation tax that have so far come into effect. agree. Does the hon. Lady share my worry that investment That is in keeping with our party’s policy over the past is threatened partly by the uncertainty about the UK’s 15 years. When Labour left office, Britain had the most place in Europe, and that evidence is growing that that competitive rate of corporation tax in the G7. The rate is already having an impact? has been cut several times over the past few years. The small business rate for companies whose profits are less Shabana Mahmood: This might be the one time during than £300,000 now stands at 20%, and the rate for a Finance Bill debate when the hon. Gentleman and I companies earning more than that will be 21% from have been in complete agreement. The uncertainty caused April—in just a few days. by the Conservative party’s positioning over Europe 1515 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1516

[Shabana Mahmood] Fiona O’Donnell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend; I was enjoying her contribution so much that I was going and the Prime Minister giving in to the needs of his to desist. Does she agree that in the Consumer Rights party, rather than the national interest, have caused a Bill the Government missed an opportunity to give huge amount of uncertainty. In every conversation that small businesses consumer rights, and that is often I have had with businesses ever since the Prime Minister leaving them open to abuses by larger organisations? made his announcement, that has been the No. 1 issue that they have raised when talking about their future in Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is right. I am glad our country, their future ability to invest in our country, that she has put on record the interplay between the and their future ability to employ more people in our Consumer Rights Bill and small businesses. That was a country. It has caused a huge amount of consternation missed opportunity. The Government should have taken and uncertainty, and the Conservative part of the coalition the opportunities available to them during the passage has been wrong to put its party interest ahead of the of that Bill to offer a further boost to these struggling national interest. businesses—all 5.1 million of them. The vast majority of businesses in our country could have been supported. Our amendment seeks to put flesh on the bones of what is happening to corporation tax by assessing the Small businesses struggle not only with high energy impact on and the benefit to smaller companies with costs, late payments and charges, but with access to 50 or fewer employees, which make up the vast majority finance. Every time we discuss these issues, the problem of private companies in our country. At a time when of access to finance comes up. I am afraid that the there are still difficult financial choices to make and a Government have failed to get a grip on this. Since 2010, relatively limited number of ways to raise revenue and lending has fallen by a colossal £56 billion. Even in the help support businesses to grow, the evidence suggests most recent quarter, net lending to small business fell by that now is the time to give much more support to a further £1 billion. Research has shown that some smaller businesses, and to prioritise smaller businesses 85% of small businesses are locked into the big five for some change in their circumstances, ahead of larger banks alone. It has also shown that most SMEs will businesses, which have, with the support of all parts of approach only the larger banks when looking for finance, the House, fared pretty well when it comes to cuts to the and that even then the rejection rate is about 50%. headline rate of corporation tax. Then there is the pressing issue of business rates. There is general agreement that small and medium-sized Business rates are levied on the estimated market rental enterprises are the engine of growth in our country, cost of most non-residential properties, and currently employing more than half of the private sector work based on 2008 rental values. In 2012-13, they raised force and contributing to 50% of UK GDP, but times £26.1 billion. Relief on business rates exists for low-value remain tough and they face wide-ranging challenges. properties—those with a rateable value of below £6,000— They struggle with high energy costs that do not seem which are subject to a 100% discount. Since April 2013, to be getting much better despite wholesale price cuts of local authorities in England have been able to retain 20% in the past year, and with late payments and between a quarter and a half of the rates raised from charges. According to the Government’s own figures, new developments. 44% of SMEs had a problem with late payments last For many small businesses, business rates are a significant year, with the average small business owed over £30,000—an overhead that they need to factor in. More than one in astonishingly high figure. 10 small businesses say that they spend more on business rates than on their rent. The only choice for many of Fiona O’Donnell: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is those shops, workshops, start-ups and others that pay important that we assess what the larger corporations business rates is to pass the costs of the rates on to their do with their extra income as compared with small customers. businesses? Small businesses in my constituency are more likely to create jobs, while larger companies are 6pm more likely to give the money to their shareholders. I come from a tradition of small business. My first Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend makes an important job—I have to say that it was unpaid—was helping my and interesting point. This is not only about how we parents to serve customers in the corner shop that was how we make choices that prioritise help for those who also our home. After school, at the weekend and in the particularly need it—my case is that SMEs need particular holidays, I did the stocktake with my dad, went to the help with business rates—but the impact of the choices cash and carry and sorted out the VAT. I have a clear we are making and whether they are leading to the idea of the stresses and strains that people who run change that we hope to see. My case—I know she will small businesses go through on a day-to-day basis, and agree—is that additional support for SMEs will yield what their families and young children go through as greater gains for UK plc. they help to try to keep things afloat. This is not about pitting one type of business against My constituency covers Birmingham , so another. Government Members have tried to argue that hon. Members can imagine the number of retailers—both the rise in corporation tax from 20% to 21% that we big and small—I hear from regularly. Many constituents advocate is an anti-business move, but every single often express the fear that the exponential growth of penny of the money from that change will be spent on business rates might put them out of business. It is a SMEs, and I defy them to try to imply that they are not concern for the people I meet. I sometimes hear those true businesses. stories from people who set up businesses in the ’60s Fiona O’Donnell rose— and ’70s. They have successfully survived the economic ups and downs since that time, only now to believe that Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): they might finally be done in by the growth of the burden If my hon. Friend wants to intervene, I will give way again. of business rates on small and medium-sized businesses. 1517 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1518

We should remember that the 2008 revaluation rate not actually businesses. The Minister does not look like reflected an entirely different time of property prices. he is about to jump up and say, “Oh no, you’ve got us Small businesses are stuck paying rates at 2008 levels, wrong.” That tells me pretty much all I need to know, which do not reflect the lower property values caused which is that the Conservatives are happy to whip up by the financial crisis. Research suggests that, in my anti-business fervour, but it is misguided and incorrect. west midlands region, the rateable value for retail units If we are elected in a few weeks’ time, every single is 13% too high, for offices it is 19% too high, and for penny of the money we raise by not going ahead with a industrial units it is 16% too high. The latest research corporation tax cut from 21% to 20% will be spent on shows that the average business rate increase since 2010 small and medium-sized businesses. They need that has been £1,500. help and they should be prioritised to receive it. That is We have had a lot of debate this afternoon about the the choice we will make to help small and medium-sized relative value of such sums of money to different people businesses. and businesses, but I can say with complete confidence We already have the lowest rate of corporation tax in that that is a lot of money for a small business. It is easy Europe, but we also have the most expensive property to see why the word “critical” has been used in relation tax. That is why it makes no sense for the Government to the current business rates regime. When people are to make it a priority to cut a tax that is already among struggling to make ends meet in their business, when the most competitive, but not help smaller firms with they are struggling to ensure that all their bills are paid, very large costs. and when their status as a going concern is in doubt, (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): £1,500 is a significant sum of money. It is a big overhead. Does my hon. Friend agree that supporting small businesses, It has made a huge difference to the ability of small and developing skills and apprenticeships and cutting tuition medium-sized businesses in our country to continue to fees, which is what a Labour Government would do, grow, employ more people and succeed. would also benefit large corporations? We need broader Business rates are central to the success of small measures that work in the interests of the whole economy. businesses. That leads us to ask the Chancellor to assess and review alternative tax measures such as a change to Shabana Mahmood: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and her point takes us back to our earlier debate “non-domestic rates, which would have a greater benefit for about the value of the headline rate of corporation tax businesses with fewer than 50 employees”. and the policy environment that supports it. Specifically, we believe that a cut in businesses rates for Clearly, more needs to be done on the business rates 1.5 million small businesses and then a freeze the following regime. We back the announcement of a review of year would be enormously helpful, and would make a business rates. There are problems in the system. For difference to the ability of businesses of that size to keep example, a factory investing in a new piece of equipment their heads above water and keep their businesses moving will find that its bill will go up next year because forward. The measure would be worth an average of property is now worth more, which could be a disincentive £450 over two years to 1.5 million businesses, including to invest. Although our corporate property tax system shops, pubs and small start-ups. Some firms would needs to be fundamentally rethought, small businesses benefit by up to £2,000. need urgent and immediate relief. Our proposal for a As I have said, an initial cut and then a freeze in cut in business rates in the first year of the next Parliament, business rates in the first two years of the next Parliament followed by a freeze in the second year, will make a would be paid for—it is another fully funded proposal genuine difference. I hope that Government Members for the Labour party manifesto on which we will seek will today take the opportunity that they have failed to election from the British people in a few weeks’ time. It take previously, support our amendment and thereby will be paid for by not going ahead with the Government’s show their support for small and medium-sized businesses. cut in corporation tax—it will happen in April; it is just a few days away—from 21% to 20% for the 80,000 largest Ian Swales: This might be my last contribution in this firms in our country. We would spend all the money place, so I would like to say what a great privilege it has raised from not going ahead with that additional 1% cut been to represent the people of Redcar for the past five in corporation tax on those 1.5 million small firms instead. years. I thank colleagues for making my time here such a vivid experience. I would struggle to apply the word As I said in response to an earlier intervention, “vivid” to the many Finance Bill Committees and finance Government Members have mischaracterised our debates I have taken part in, but overall I have had a corporation tax proposals as anti-business. The Minister terrific time. and I sometimes agree to a score draw when we debate, I support the lower rate of corporation tax. When but his mischaracterisation of our proposal is just plain opponents of such things talk about lower tax rates, wrong. It is also unlike him to be uncharitable and retaining profit is often described as some kind of evil, unwilling to engage with the issue at hand. I hope he but what happens to that money? The characterisation will pick up on that when he responds. is that it will probably end up in high pay for the people During a media appearance on “Daily Politics”, I put at the top, but companies with money have lots of it to the Conservative party chairman that his party’s choices and do lots of different things. They might pay contention that our corporation tax proposals are anti- more money to their shareholders, the vast majority of business only holds true if the Conservatives believe which are institutions such as public sector pension that 1.5 million small firms are not really businesses. He funds. They might invest the money or employ more evaded that point and no Conservative Member has people. They might spend the money on innovation or ever stood up to justify their characterisation of our on building skills, and they might spend more money corporation tax proposals as anti-business by saying with SMEs, because all big companies have supply that they believe that 1.5 million small businesses are chains that involve small companies. 1519 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1520

Fiona O’Donnell: It is an honour to intervene in what really where the customer is. In fact, the HMRC small might be the hon. Gentleman’s last speech in this place. print already says that, but it is quite difficult to implement. Has he considered the impact on the rural economy, There is a lot more to be done for internet companies, which suffered particularly harshly during the recession? not least because they are competing against bricks-and- The recovery there is very fragile and corporation tax mortar companies, particularly the small businesses cuts will not help rural communities. Does he not think that the shadow Minister has been very vocal on and that this could be the wrong cause? quick to talk about. That is another step that needs to be taken. Ian Swales: The economy of the country is an ecosystem. No company exists in isolation and each relates to other 6.15 pm companies. One measure that we are not talking about this afternoon is the cut in fuel duty, which is enormously The shadow Minister was absolutely right that, when helpful to rural citizens and rural companies, so the we ask businesses about their issues, they more often Government have taken some steps, although that is talk about business rates than about corporation tax. probably not relevant to this debate. That applies not just to small and medium-sized businesses; the steel works in my constituency pays £10 million a Of course, we expect people to pay their share of year in business rates, which is five times the amount it corporation tax and to do it properly. I remember the would pay if it was based in the Netherlands. How do head of the CBI saying towards the end of 2013 that he we know that? Because the same company ran a steel was confused about what Parliament wanted because works in my constituency and one in the Netherlands there was so much noise about tax avoidance. It is not for a long time, so they know the figures. very confusing at all: we want businesses to account for their operations in the UK properly and to pay tax on A huge, root-and-branch reform is required for business the money they make in the UK. I do not think that rates, partly to help bricks-and-mortar companies to that is complicated, but some businesses appear to compete against internet companies and partly to recognise think that it is. the change in property values. The business rates of some shops on my local high street in Redcar are five I welcome the successive measures that the Government times the amount that the landlord is seeking, so the have taken on tax avoidance. They are not just about whole decision about whether to take such premises is individual avoidance but about corporate avoidance, about business rates, not about rent. too. The Bill contains many provisions, but I shall mention just three: it stops contrived arrangements on John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): Does carried forward tax reliefs; it restructures bank loss the hon. Gentleman think it right for a Government to relief; and it puts limits on research and development take money from a city where a lot is paid in rates—with tax credits to deal with certain items. Once again, the people from outside the area coming into it—and then Government are looking in great detail at how companies spread it around the rest of the country? sort out their tax and picking up anything that looks anomalous. I welcome that. Ian Swales: Another thing that the Government have We can go a step further. Both the Chancellor and the done is to move towards localising business rates again. Chief Secretary to the Treasury said last week that we Certainly my part of the world, which had huge industrial are now consulting on new criminal measures to deal sites such as the one I have mentioned, was pretty with companies that advise on or enable tax evasion. I nonplussed when all that money was collected by a am choosing my words carefully.Aggressive tax avoidance, Government in the 1980s, taken to the centre and then which we often hear about, is more of a grey term, but doled out in different proportions. We need to move tax evasion is very clear. If a company advises people towards more localisation, not least to incentivise councils on how to evade tax or enables that through the provision to drive economic development. I would argue that that of accounts or processes, it is not just the person has not been happening sufficiently in some parts of the evading the tax who is criminal. We want those who country, and I live in one of them. help—I think aid and abet is the legal term—to be in I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, and there is the dock, too. That will further help to change the also the issue about where people live, where they work climate and the number of prosecutions necessary will and what services they use. The south-west has a particular be much less than the amount of activity that the issue when its population doubles every summer, because provision prevents just by existing. people may not make a contribution through taxes paid I welcome the consultation that has started, which is directly in the south-west, but they are using services yet another step that would be helpful. We are talking there. There is another whole argument to be had about about corporation tax and it is relevant to mention the the location of rates versus how they are collected. diverted profits tax. As we know, a lot of corporations I will not detain the Committee long. The Government divert their profits or do not account properly for their are on the right track with corporation tax. Let us put it operations in the UK. The diverted profits tax is a good this way: there is plenty of work for the next Parliament step forward. It is quite limited in scope, but it will help to do, and I shall watch with interest from afar. to put the initial stakes in the ground for how we want to deal with things in the future. Sheila Gilmore: It is a great pleasure to follow the There is more to do. I was pleased to hear the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), because we have Minister talk in his opening remarks about the need to served together on a number of Finance Bill Committees look further at internet companies, because we all know during the past five years. The debates on the details of that they can position themselves anywhere. It is quite a Finance Bill in Public Bill Committee are often better wrong to assume that when a company is selling the than those on the parts of the Bill taken on the Floor of address of the server is where the business is, as it is the House. The theory is that the debates on the more 1521 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1522 important and bigger parts of the Bill are taken in the The hon. Member for Redcar probably has a different Chamber and then the Bill goes upstairs, but the Public view of economics from mine, but he appeared to be of Bill Committee often allows us to have quite fruitful the view that if a company is making a profit, it will be debates on many of the issues. ploughing it back in the right directions. I do not think One thing that has been very clear during this that is necessarily always the case. Big businesses in Government—perhaps this has always been the case, particular should make a good contribution to our but it seems to be growing—is that all the political society, and we have to ensure that they do. I urge the parties are falling over themselves to talk about the House to support the amendment. importance of small and medium-sized businesses, and we are all the friends of small business. Small businesses Fiona O’Donnell: It is a pleasure to see you back in are probably very pleased to hear politicians talk so the Chair, Mr Hood. much about them, but then the issue becomes one of I wish to talk particularly about the rural economy whether it is talk or action. It is very easy to praise small and the opportunities that the Government might be businesses, but such businesses, especially new ones, missing, given the importance of small and medium-sized sometimes feel that the system is set against them. enterprises to rural economies. Given that this may be One new business in my constituency involved two my last contribution in this Parliament, I also want to young women who set up a fitness studio. They went reflect briefly on the political situation in Scotland. into premises on what was effectively a redevelopment We have had more than one eclipse in Scotland in recent area after our old hospital had been relocated. Largely weeks. It seems to be a daily occurrence that Alex Salmond’s because of the financial crash and the recession, the moon blocks out Nicola Sturgeon’s sun. At one time, the whole redevelopment took longer than expected, so the current leader of the Scottish National party—people population to support new businesses had not arrived might easily be confused as to who that is these days, at the expected rate. Although they got a rent holiday but I remind them that it is Nicola Sturgeon—did a for the first 18 months from the developer who was U-turn on the SNP’s proposal in its White Paper “Scotland’s renting them their premises, which was welcome, they Future” to reduce corporation tax by 3%. I welcome that, were struggling with business rates. Oddly, even though because I do not think it would have been a progressive my local council said that it wanted to encourage economic move or have provided the right environment for the development and had particularly encouraged the stability, job creation, employment rights and pay and redevelopment of that site, it was not particularly conditions that we want in a fair, modern and successful forthcoming with help for a new business. Scotland. The Minister may wish to reflect on that and Those young women were not in the region of having the debate that went on around the referendum, because to worry about corporation tax—that was not where the measure was not popular with working people or their business was. They had to worry about the rates. It businesses—certainly not with SMEs that would not was touch and go, but I was pleased to see recently that have seen any benefit. they are still there and have managed to overcome their The Financial Secretary said that he does not want to initial difficulties. Some of the other redevelopment is do anything to risk the recovery, but I urge him to think beginning to happen, so I hope that they will continue about what more his Government can do to aid recovery to be successful. However, we do not always join the in rural areas. Most of the conversation and discourse I dots either locally or nationally. Things such as rates are have heard from Government Members—for example essential for a lot of small businesses, and we have to in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill Committee— support such businesses to the greatest extent that we was about employment rights. The Minister seemed to can. think that the way to help small businesses was to erode I have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman in his workers’ rights, but I think that has the opposite effect points about business rates being retained locally. We because it can be more difficult for them to recruit staff. have to work through the conflict between that and Much as I admire the beautiful city of Edinburgh, redistribution to ensure that different areas of the country our capital, I am concerned that so many people from are assisted in developing. When I was on the council in my rural constituency commute there for work. At a Edinburgh, we often raised the issue. It was and still is time when the population of East Lothian is set to grow an expanding city, and it generates a lot of business. We at the fastest rate of anywhere in Scotland, with 10,000 have big events that generate worldwide attention, and a more homes, we need jobs in our own communities. We lot of businesses feel that they bear the cost of all that must look at the impact that the Budget will have on SMEs without necessarily seeing the rates coming back to the with 50 or more employees, and we are asking the city. It is all very well to say that we get rates in because Government to pause and reflect on what that impact we have events such as the festival and big tourist might be. attractions, but sometimes it feels that the rates are not We are losing many skills in local, rural and remote coming back. I understand the tension between that economies, especially in the construction industry—that and looking at the region or country as a whole and relates to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member trying to build wealth. It is not easy, but we have to for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) about incentivise businesses as far as possible to feel that difficulties with lending. Small construction firms are keeping on growing is to their advantage as well as to finding it very difficult to access lending, which means wider advantage. that they are disadvantaged when it comes to procurement Politicians and political parties must not just pay lip contracts. If they take on small housing developments service to the importance of small business. We must do in the community, the people working on the construction specific things to assist, and that is what amendment 2, sites will often be local young men and women who are moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, benefiting from an apprenticeship and learning skills, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood), is intended to do. and they will be spending money in that local community. 1523 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1524

[Fiona O’Donnell] John Robertson: The best way to get the tax contribution is to give people real jobs with real pay; then we will get The healthy cycle of the rural economy is thus given the money in. new impetus and energy. Will the Minister at least reflect on that? Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, When small businesses fail, it does not make the and that goes to the nub of the issue today. As my hon. headlines in the same way as when a large manufacturing Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood eloquently company announces job losses. The news about Longannet, set out from the Opposition Front Bench, the numbers which is across the water from my constituency and are clear. In respect of corporation tax, we are talking where many of my constituents are employed, is deeply about a very small number of large businesses operating concerning. When a small business fails, it does not across the country. The benefits of that tax cut will not make the headlines in the same way, but for the rural necessarily be felt throughout the wider economy. I economy and community it can be devastating. The would argue—I know my hon. Friend makes the same village where I live in East Lothian, Pencaitland, has argument—that targeting the same amount of money two village shops and a pub, and the thought that any on a business rate cut for the first year and a freeze for of those could fold at any time would have a devastating the second year is much smarter, because it would affect impact on our community. At that point, community 5.1 million small and medium-sized businesses and cohesion goes and the place becomes just a dormitory, others. That is the right thing to do for the struggling somewhere people go to lay down their head at night, high street. rather than the vibrant community we want. I therefore urge the Minister to consider very seriously We have heard much about devolution during this what the Labour Front-Bench team is asking for. We Parliament. When it comes to how we support and are not asking him to implement Labour party policy, drive growth in the SME sector, we need to trust people as much as I would like him to, and we are not asking at local authority and community level to make decisions him to freeze business rates or to cut them. We are about how businesses are supported, how they grow asking him to conduct a review so that we can have a and create jobs and wealth, and how they provide proper debate on whether his approach of cutting sustainability. We must trust the people who know the corporation tax is the right one, or whether, as we argue area and the skill requirements to make those decisions. and believe, cutting and then freezing business rates is a Talking about who gets to vote on what Bill does not much smarter way of using the same amount of money, have the same impact; it does not empower. It may take as it would create a bigger boost for the economies of power away from individual MPs, but it does not towns, villages and cities across the country. empower communities, which is what devolution should I want to add one note of caution. I am very supportive be about. of the devolution agenda in England. As a Greater I ask the Financial Secretary to consider the intervention Manchester MP, Members would expect me to say that I made on my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, I very much support the efforts by the Greater Manchester Ladywood who spoke from the Opposition Front Bench. combined authority and the 10 local authorities—eight are What evidence do the Government have that cutting Labour, one is Conservative and one is Liberal Democrat- corporation tax will create more jobs than supporting controlled—and recognise the benefits of the conurbation SMEs, particularly in the rural context? working together. The Government’s announcement included the retention of additional business rates from I am very grateful to Members who have been sitting growth, but I urge caution. I support the proposal, but patiently and silently for allowing me to make this pitch we have to approach it on a conurbation, city region and on behalf of the rural economy. I look forward to county region basis. Growth areas in cities and counties hearing the Minister’s comments. are often located in particular geographical areas, whereas needs are spread across whole areas. With that, I urge 6.30 pm the Minister to accept Labour’s amendment, which requires nothing more than a report that I think would Andrew Gwynne: It is always a pleasure to serve under back our plans 100%. your chairmanship, Mr Hood. It is also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian Mr Gauke: First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the (Fiona O’Donnell), who I am almost certain will be Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), who spoke in this back in the next Parliament to pursue these cases vigorously debate as he has done in so many Finance Bill debates with the next Labour Government. I was tempted to over the past five years. He has always provided a voice speak by the Minister’s generosity in likening me to a of calmness and sanity. I have not agreed with everything future statesman. I appreciate that I have some way to he has said, but he has mostly made helpful contributions, go, although I have not handed him the Red Book across and thoughtfulness is a consistent characteristic of those the Table, as I did to his Liberal Democrat counterpart contributions. on Thursday. The corporation tax rate is set in legislation a year in The debates we have had today really come down to advance on an annual basis. Clause 6 sets the corporation one issue: balance and priorities. It is about the share we tax rate and charge for the financial year beginning on expect to take from tax or the share we expect to take 1 April 2016. The House will be aware that in 2013 from spending cuts to deal with deficit reduction in the legislation was passed cutting the main rate of corporation next Parliament. As I said in an intervention on my tax from 21% to 20% for the 2015 financial year. The hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood cut will take effect in seven days and give the UK by far (Shabana Mahmood), the issues are the same whether it the lowest rate in the G7 and the joint lowest rate in the is the VAT debate, the 50p debate or the debate we are G20. The clause confirms that the rate will remain at now having on business rates and corporation tax. 20% in 2016. 1525 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1526

The Government have made it clear that we want a As far as business rates are concerned, the Government business tax regime that is competitive and fair, and recognise that they represent a fixed cost for businesses. since 2010 we have made clear strides towards that goal. That is why during this Parliament we have continued The main rate of corporation tax was 28%. We have cut to double the small business rate relief schemes, supporting it by almost a third to make the UK more competitive 575,000 businesses, of which 385,000 pay no rates at all. and to support growth and investment. At the same We have capped the inflation-linked increase in the time, we have taken significant measures to clamp down business rates multiplier at 2% for two years, and we on tax avoidance, and on Second Reading we debated have provided a £1,000 retail discount this year, rising the diverted profits tax introduced by the Bill. to £1,500 next year for small shops, pubs, cafés and Low corporation taxes enable businesses to increase restaurants, supporting the high street. investment, take on new staff, increase wages or reduce Labour said it would cut business rates by 1% for prices. Overall, the corporation tax cuts we have delivered lower-value properties in 2015-16. Under its plan, the since 2010 will save businesses £10 billion a year from smallest single properties would pay more. A property 2016. To give Members a sense of scale, that is the with a rateable value of £5,000 saves £1,165 under this equivalent of giving businesses enough money to hire Government compared with the Opposition’s proposals. 270,000 new employees. Oxford university’s centre for The high street would also lose out. A shop with a business taxation estimates that our reduction in the rateable value of £30,000 saves £1,080 under this corporate tax burden will increase business investment Government when compared with the original proposals. by £11 billion; and as well as supporting businesses We have published terms of reference for a wide-ranging already operating in the UK, lower rates of corporation ambitious review of Budget business rates to report tax make the UK more attractive to international businesses. back to the Government. That is, of course, on top of Last year, UK Trade & Investment reported a record what we have done on fuel duty, which helps small number of inward investment projects that led to the businesses, and the employment allowance, which does creation of 66,000 new jobs and safeguarded 45,000 the same. more. In conclusion, cutting corporation tax has been a central part of our economic strategy—a strategy that The corporation tax cuts and other reforms, such as is working. In 2014, growth in the UK outstripped that the introduction of the patent box, have completely of every other G7 country. Employment is at record changed perceptions of the UK tax regime. Five years levels, business investment is growing rapidly, and this ago, businesses were leaving the UK because of our tax clause ensures that the rate of corporation tax for regime. That regime has now become an asset that 2016-17 will remain at 20%—an extremely competitive attracts firms to the UK. In surveys, the UK is now rate and a foundation of tax system designed to support regularly cited as one of the most competitive regimes growth and investment. Reversing the progress we have in the world. The clause embeds the message that the made would be a big mistake and send a terrible signal UK is open for business by affirming that the UK rate to businesses around the world. That is why I believe the will remain at the record low of 20% in 2016. clause should stand part of the Bill. The Opposition amendment proposes a review of the Question put, That the amendment be made. impact of a 1% cut to the main rate of corporation tax for the financial year 2016. A great deal is already The Committee divided: Ayes 229, Noes 306. known about the impact of corporation tax policy. We Division No. 186] [6.42 pm know that lower rates encourage growth and investment, AYES and that stable and simple taxes give businesses confidence to invest and expand. The clause refers only to a single Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, rh Mr Nicholas rate because we have already legislated to unify the Abrahams, Debbie Brown, Mr Russell main rate and small profits rate of corporation tax and Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bryant, Chris to scrap the complex marginal relief system for all Alexander, Heidi Buck, Ms Karen Ali, Rushanara Burden, Richard companies, except those with ring-fenced profits. Allen, Mr Graham Burnham, rh Andy These changes will take effect next week and give the Anderson, Mr David Campbell, rh Mr Alan UK for the first time a single headline rate of corporation Ashworth, Jonathan Campbell, Mr Ronnie tax and provide administrative savings for a huge number Austin, Ian Caton, Martin of businesses, particularly the nearly 50,000 companies Bailey, Mr Adrian Chapman, Jenny that pay the marginal rate of corporation tax each year. Bain, Mr William Clark, Katy Balls, rh Ed Clarke, rh Mr Tom The move was recommended by the Office of Tax Banks, Gordon Clwyd, rh Ann Simplification, and I would like to take the opportunity Barron, rh Kevin Coaker, Vernon to pay tribute to Michael Jack, John Whiting and the Bayley, Sir Hugh Coffey, Ann team for all the work they have done since we introduced Beckett, rh Margaret Connarty, Michael the OTS at the start of this Parliament. The Institute for Begg, Dame Anne Cooper, Rosie Fiscal Studies has also been supportive of our reforms. Benn, rh Hilary Cooper, rh Yvette In a recent report, it said: Benton, Mr Joe Corbyn, Jeremy Berger, Luciana Crausby, Mr David “The simplification of moving to a single rate of corporation Betts, Mr Clive Creagh, Mary tax…is a real achievement of the coalition government’s tax Blackman-Woods, Roberta Creasy, Stella policy, and it is one that should not be reversed.” Blomfield, Paul Cruddas, Jon The evidence on corporation tax is clear: low rates and Blunkett, rh Mr David Cryer, John a simple system support business and support growth. Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cunningham, Alex In our view, the proposed review would provide little Brennan, Kevin Cunningham, Mr Jim benefit, so we are not minded to accept the amendment. Brown, Lyn Cunningham, Sir Tony 1527 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1528

Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin Walley, Joan Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Skinner, Mr Dennis Watson, Mr Tom Danczuk, Simon Lammy, rh Mr David Slaughter, Mr Andy Weir, Mr Mike Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lavery, Ian Smith, Nick Whiteford, Dr Eilidh David, Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Owen Whitehead, Dr Alan Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Spellar, rh Mr John Williams, Hywel De Piero, Gloria Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Straw, rh Mr Jack Williamson, Chris Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Stuart, Ms Gisela Winnick, Mr David Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Tami, Mark Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Love, Mr Andrew Thomas, Mr Gareth Wishart, Pete Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Caroline Thornberry, Emily Wood, Mike Doughty, Stephen Lucas, Ian Timms, rh Stephen Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Dowd, Jim MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Trickett, Jon Wright, David Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, rh Fiona Turner, Karl Wright, Mr Iain Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Twigg, Derek Dugher, Michael Malhotra, Seema Twigg, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Durkan, Mark Mann, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Tom Blenkinsop and Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Vaz, Valerie Phil Wilson Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael NOES Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg Adams, Nigel Cash, Sir William Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Afriyie, Adam Chishti, Rehman Engel, Natascha McDonald, Andy Aldous, Peter Chope, Mr Christopher Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Alexander, rh Danny Clark, rh Greg Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Amess, Sir David Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Jim Andrew, Stuart Coffey, Dr Thérèse Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Dame Anne Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Collins, Damian Flello, Robert McInnes, Liz Bacon, Mr Richard Colvile, Oliver Flynn, Paul McKechin, Ann Baker, rh Norman Cox, Mr Geoffrey Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain Baker, Steve Crabb, rh Stephen Francis, Dr Hywel Meale, Sir Alan Baldry, rh Sir Tony Crouch, Tracey Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Baldwin, Harriett Davies, David T. C. Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew Barclay, Stephen (Monmouth) Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Barker, rh Gregory Davies, Glyn Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica Barwell, Gavin Davies, Philip Godsiff, Mr Roger Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bebb, Guto Davis, rh Mr David Goodman, Helen Morris, Grahame M. Beith, rh Sir Alan Dinenage, Caroline Greatrex, Tom (Easington) Bellingham, Mr Henry Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Green, Kate Munn, Meg Benyon, Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Beresford, Sir Paul Drax, Richard Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Berry, Jake Duddridge, James Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Bingham, Andrew Duncan, rh Sir Alan Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Binley, Mr Brian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Birtwistle, Gordon Dunne, Mr Philip Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Blackman, Bob Ellis, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Blackwood, Nicola Ellison, Jane Harris, Mr Tom Osborne, Sandra Blunt, Crispin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Boles, Nick Elphicke, Charlie Healey, rh John Pearce, Teresa Bone, Mr Peter Eustice, George Hendrick, Mark Perkins, Toby Bottomley, Sir Peter Evans, Graham Hepburn, Mr Stephen Phillipson, Bridget Bradley, Karen Evans, Jonathan Hillier, Meg Powell, Lucy Brady, Mr Graham Evans, Mr Nigel Hilling, Julie Qureshi, Yasmin Brake, rh Tom Evennett, rh Mr David Hodge, rh Margaret Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bray, Angie Fabricant, Michael Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Brazier, Mr Julian Fallon, rh Michael Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Steve Bridgen, Andrew Field, rh Mark Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Rachel Brine, Steve Foster, rh Mr Don Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Brokenshire, James Fox,rhDrLiam Hunt, Tristram Robertson, John Brooke, rh Annette Francois, rh Mr Mark Irranca-Davies, Huw Rotheram, Steve Browne, Mr Jeremy Freeman, George Jackson, Glenda Roy, Mr Frank Bruce, Fiona Freer, Mike Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Lindsay Buckland, Mr Robert Fuller, Richard Jarvis, Dan Ruane, Chris Burns, Conor Garnier, rh Sir Edward Johnson, rh Alan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Burns, rh Mr Simon Garnier, Mark Johnson, Diana Sarwar, Anas Burrowes, Mr David Gauke, Mr David Jones, Graham Sawford, Andy Burstow, rh Paul George, Andrew Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Burt, rh Alistair Gibb, Mr Nick Jones, Susan Elan Shannon, Jim Byles, Dan Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sharma, Mr Virendra Cairns, Alun Glen, John Kane, Mike Sheerman, Mr Barry Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Goodwill, Mr Robert Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheridan, Jim Carmichael, Neil Gove, rh Michael 1529 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1530

Graham, Richard Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris Uppal, Paul Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Jason Smith, Chloe Vaizey, Mr Edward Gray, Mr James McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Vara, Mr Shailesh Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Vickers, Martin Green, rh Damian McPartland, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Greening, rh Justine McVey, rh Esther Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Walker, Mr Charles Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Walker, Mr Robin Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wallace, Mr Ben Gummer, Ben Miller, rh Maria Spencer, Mr Mark Ward, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Stanley, rh Sir John Watkinson, Dame Angela Hague, rh Mr William Milton, rh Anne Stephenson, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Halfon, Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stevenson, John Webb, rh Steve Hames, Duncan Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Bob Wharton, James Hammond, Stephen Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Iain Wheeler, Heather Hands, rh Greg Morgan, rh Nicky Stewart, Rory White, Chris Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Mr Gary Whittaker, Craig Harrington, Richard Morris, David Stuart, Mr Graham Whittingdale, Mr John Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wiggin, Bill Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Willetts, rh Mr David Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Swales, Ian Williams, Stephen Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williamson, Gavin Heald, Sir Oliver Munt, Tessa Swinson, Jo Willott, rh Jenny Heath, rh Mr David Murray, Sheryll Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wilson, Mr Rob Heaton-Harris, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hemming, John Neill, Robert Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wright, rh Jeremy Henderson, Gordon Newmark, Mr Brooks Teather, Sarah Wright, Simon Hendry, rh Charles Newton, Sarah Thornton, Mike Yeo, Mr Tim Herbert, rh Nick Nokes, Caroline Thurso, rh John Young, rh Sir George Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Timpson, Mr Edward Zahawi, Nadhim Hollingbery, George Nuttall, Mr David Tomlinson, Justin Tellers for the Noes: Hollobone, Mr Philip O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Turner, Mr Andrew Damian Hinds and Hopkins, Kris Offord, Dr Matthew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Mel Stride Howarth, Sir Gerald Ollerenshaw, Eric Howell, John Opperman, Guy Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Question accordingly negatived. Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paice, rh Sir James Hunter, Mark Parish, Neil Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): On a Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti point of order, Mr Hood. Can we look again at the way Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark in which the business of this House is organised, because James, Margot Penning, rh Mike it brings our procedures into real disrepute when we Javid, rh Sajid Penrose, John have not had the chance even to look at a set of Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew important amendments, much less to debate them. Jenrick, Robert Perry, Claire [Interruption.] Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Johnson, Joseph Pickles, rh Mr Eric The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood) Order. I ask Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Members for order to allow the hon. Lady to make her Jones, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark point of order. Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Caroline Lucas: I was simply making the case that Kelly, Chris Pugh, John our procedures are brought into disrepute when we Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Knight, rh Sir Greg Randall, rh Sir John have not had the chance even to debate a huge number Kwarteng, Kwasi Rees-Mogg, Jacob of amendments, much less to put them to the vote, Lancaster, Mark Reevell, Simon including an important amendment that would have Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan closed a tax-dodging loophole for private equity firms. Latham, Pauline Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Can we look again at the way in which the business of Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, rh Sir Hugh this House is organised, Mr Hood? Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Mr Laurence Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan The Temporary Chair: I thank the hon. Lady for her Leigh, Sir Edward Rosindell, Andrew point of order. She may want to take her point up with Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber the Procedure Committee. Unfortunately, it is not a Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Ruffley, Mr David matter for me. Lewis, Brandon Russell, Sir Bob 6.57 pm Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rutley, David Six hours having elapsed since the commencement of Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sanders, Mr Adrian proceedings on the Finance (No. 2) Bill, the proceedings Lidington, rh Mr David Sandys, Laura were interrupted (Order, 24 March). Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew The Chair put forthwith the Question necessary for the Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Luff, Sir Peter Sharma, Alok (Standing Order No. 83D and Order, 24 March). Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Clauses 6 to 65 and 68 to 127 ordered to stand part of Macleod, Mary Simmonds, rh Mark the Bill. Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, rh Mr Keith Schedules 1 to 21 agreed to. 1531 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1532

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Heath, rh Mr David Murray, Sheryll Bill reported, without amendment. Heaton-Harris, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Hemming, John Neill, Robert Question put forthwith (Order, 24 March), That the Henderson, Gordon Newmark, Mr Brooks Bill be now read the Third time. Hendry, rh Charles Newton, Sarah The House divided: Ayes 307, Noes 226. Herbert, rh Nick Nokes, Caroline Division No. 187] [6.57 pm Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Hollingbery, George Nuttall, Mr David AYES Hollobone, Mr Philip O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Adams, Nigel Davies, David T. C. Hopkins, Kris Offord, Dr Matthew Afriyie, Adam (Monmouth) Howarth, Sir Gerald Ollerenshaw, Eric Aldous, Peter Davies, Glyn Howell, John Opperman, Guy Alexander, rh Danny Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Amess, Sir David Davis, rh Mr David Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paice, rh Sir James Andrew, Stuart Dinenage, Caroline Hunter, Mark Parish, Neil Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Bacon, Mr Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark Baker, rh Norman Drax, Richard James, Margot Penning, rh Mike Baker, Steve Duddridge, James Javid, rh Sajid Penrose, John Baldry, rh Sir Tony Duncan, rh Sir Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jenrick, Robert Perry, Claire Barclay, Stephen Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Barker, rh Gregory Ellis, Michael Johnson, Joseph Pickles, rh Mr Eric Baron, Mr John Ellison, Jane Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Barwell, Gavin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Bebb, Guto Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Pritchard, Mark Beith, rh Sir Alan Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Pugh, John Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Benyon, Richard Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Sir Greg Randall, rh Sir John Beresford, Sir Paul Evans, Mr Nigel Kwarteng, Kwasi Rees-Mogg, Jacob Berry, Jake Evennett, rh Mr David Lancaster, Mark Reevell, Simon Bingham, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Binley, Mr Brian Fallon, rh Michael Latham, Pauline Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Blackman, Bob Field, rh Mark Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Blackwood, Nicola Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Mr Laurence Blunt, Crispin Fox,rhDrLiam Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Boles, Nick Francois, rh Mr Mark Leigh, Sir Edward Rosindell, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte Rudd, Amber Bottomley, Sir Peter Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Ruffley, Mr David Bradley, Karen Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Russell, Sir Bob Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, rh Sir Edward Lewis, rh Dr Julian Rutley, David Brake, rh Tom Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sanders, Mr Adrian Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Lidington, rh Mr David Sandys, Laura Brazier, Mr Julian George, Andrew Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Bridgen, Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Brine, Steve Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Brokenshire, James Glen, John Luff, Sir Peter Sharma, Alok Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Brooke, rh Annette Goodwill, Mr Robert Gove, rh Michael Macleod, Mary Simmonds, rh Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Graham, Richard Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, rh Mr Keith Bruce, Fiona Grant, Mrs Helen Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris Buckland, Mr Robert Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Smith, Chloe Burns, Conor Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Burns, rh Mr Simon Green, rh Damian McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine McPartland, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Burstow, rh Paul Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McVey, rh Esther Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Burt, rh Alistair Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Byles, Dan Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Cairns, Alun Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, rh Maria Spencer, Mr Mark Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hague, rh Mr William Mills, Nigel Stanley, rh Sir John Carmichael, Neil Halfon, Robert Milton, rh Anne Stephenson, Andrew Cash, Sir William Hames, Duncan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stevenson, John Chishti, Rehman Hammond, Stephen Moore, rh Michael Stewart, Bob Chope, Mr Christopher Hancock, rh Matthew Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Iain Clark, rh Greg Hands, rh Greg Morgan, rh Nicky Stewart, Rory Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Mr Gary Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harrington, Richard Morris, David Stuart, Mr Graham Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Colvile, Oliver Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Cox, Mr Geoffrey Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Swales, Ian Crabb, rh Stephen Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Crouch, Tracey Heald, Sir Oliver Munt, Tessa Swinson, Jo 1533 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1534

Swire, rh Mr Hugo Webb, rh Steve Hamilton, Fabian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Syms, Mr Robert Wharton, James Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wheeler, Heather Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Teather, Sarah White, Chris Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Thornton, Mike Whittaker, Craig Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Thurso, rh John Whittingdale, Mr John Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Timpson, Mr Edward Wiggin, Bill Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Tomlinson, Justin Willetts, rh Mr David Hillier, Meg Osborne, Sandra Truss, rh Elizabeth Williams, Stephen Hilling, Julie Owen, Albert Turner, Mr Andrew Williamson, Gavin Hodge, rh Margaret Pearce, Teresa Tyrie, Mr Andrew Willott, rh Jenny Hoey, Kate Perkins, Toby Uppal, Paul Wilson, Mr Rob Hopkins, Kelvin Phillipson, Bridget Vaizey, Mr Edward Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hosie, Stewart Powell, Lucy Vara, Mr Shailesh Wright, rh Jeremy Howarth, rh Mr George Qureshi, Yasmin Vickers, Martin Wright, Simon Hunt, Tristram Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Yeo, Mr Tim Irranca-Davies, Huw Reed, Mr Jamie Walker, Mr Charles Young, rh Sir George Jackson, Glenda Reed, Mr Steve Walker, Mr Robin Zahawi, Nadhim Jamieson, Cathy Reeves, Rachel Wallace, Mr Ben Tellers for the Ayes: Jarvis, Dan Reynolds, Emma Watkinson, Dame Angela Damian Hinds and Johnson, rh Alan Robertson, John Weatherley, Mike Mel Stride Johnson, Diana Rotheram, Steve Jones, Graham Roy, Mr Frank Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Lindsay NOES Jones, Susan Elan Ruane, Chris Abbott, Ms Diane Cryer, John Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Abrahams, Debbie Cunningham, Alex Kane, Mike Sarwar, Anas Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sawford, Andy Alexander, Heidi Cunningham, Sir Tony Keeley, Barbara Seabeck, Alison Ali, Rushanara Curran, Margaret Kendall, Liz Shannon, Jim Allen, Mr Graham Dakin, Nic Lammy, rh Mr David Sharma, Mr Virendra Anderson, Mr David Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Ashworth, Jonathan Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lazarowicz, Mark Sheridan, Jim Austin, Ian David, Wayne Leslie, Chris Shuker, Gavin Bailey, Mr Adrian Davidson, Mr Ian Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Skinner, Mr Dennis Bain, Mr William De Piero, Gloria Lewis, Mr Ivan Slaughter, Mr Andy Balls, rh Ed Denham, rh Mr John Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Banks, Gordon Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Owen Barron, rh Kevin Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Caroline Spellar, rh Mr John Bayley, Sir Hugh Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Beckett, rh Margaret Doughty, Stephen MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stuart, Ms Gisela Begg, Dame Anne Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, rh Fiona Tami, Mark Benn, rh Hilary Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Thomas, Mr Gareth Benton, Mr Joe Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Thornberry, Emily Berger, Luciana Dugher, Michael Mann, John Timms, rh Stephen Betts, Mr Clive Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Blunkett, rh Mr David Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Stephen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Umunna, Mr Chuka Brennan, Kevin Elliott, Julie McCrea, Dr William Vaz, Valerie Brown, Lyn Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Walley, Joan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Engel, Natascha McDonald, Andy Watson, Mr Tom Brown, Mr Russell Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Weir, Mr Mike Bryant, Chris Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Buck, Ms Karen Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Burden, Richard Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Dame Anne Williams, Hywel Burnham, rh Andy Flello, Robert McInnes, Liz Williamson, Chris Campbell, rh Mr Alan Flynn, Paul McKechin, Ann Winnick, Mr David Campbell, Mr Ronnie Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Caton, Martin Francis, Dr Hywel Meale, Sir Alan Wishart, Pete Chapman, Jenny Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Wood, Mike Clark, Katy Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Mitchell, Austin Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gilmore, Sheila Wright, David Morden, Jessica Clwyd, rh Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary Wright, Mr Iain Coaker, Vernon Goodman, Helen Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Coffey, Ann Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Tellers for the Noes: Cooper, Rosie Green, Kate (Easington) Phil Wilson and Munn, Meg Tom Blenkinsop Corbyn, Jeremy Greenwood, Lilian Crausby, Mr David Griffith, Nia Creagh, Mary Gwynne, Andrew Question accordingly agreed to. Creasy, Stella Hain, rh Mr Peter Cruddas, Jon Hamilton, Mr David Bill read the Third time and passed. 1535 Finance (No. 2) Bill25 MARCH 2015 Finance (No. 2) Bill 1536

Ms (Wallasey) (Lab): On a point of Mr Deputy Speaker: We are getting into areas that order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It has just come to my are not a matter for the Chair. This is agreed business of attention that the Government have tabled a motion for the Government. That answers that. debate on the final day of this Parliament, with no notice whatever to myself as shadow Leader of the Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): House. The motion proposes changes to the way in On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order which the Speaker is elected—procedural matters in the for a member of a Select Committee who has been House—with no consultation with Her Majesty’s loyal involved in a serious leak and a possible breach of Opposition and no consultation with the Chair of the privilege in this House then to raise that, as happened Procedure Committee, for debate in only one hour today at Prime Minister’s questions in a question from tomorrow. Is this in order? Do you believe that the the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte procedures of this House should be bandied around by Leslie), thus exacerbating the situation the Committee the Government in this way, and that we should have has found itself in? I would be grateful for your advice. surprises delivered to us in this manner on the last day of the first ever fixed-term Parliament? The motion Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Further to that attempts to influence the results of the first thing that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Other members of will happen in the next Parliament, with no chance for the Health Committee are also affected. The hon. Member large numbers of Members who had no knowledge that for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) has openly this was happening to participate. leaked the private considerations of the Committee. What action can be taken immediately? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): It is a business matter for the Government, as the shadow Mr Deputy Speaker: May I just say that we are raising Leader of the House is well aware. Rightly or wrongly— a matter where a Member is being discussed? I presume whichever the House may decide—a business motion that they are aware that this matter was going to be was agreed to yesterday, as I understand it, and as we raised as a point of order. know, business of the House is decided by the Government, not by the Chair, so it is not a matter for the Chair. (West Lancashire) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Like my hon. Friends, Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Further to that I think that we, as members of the Health Committee, point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Usually I am an need the advice of your good self as to how we can assiduous attender, as you know, of business questions, address the distorted report of events at the private but I was unable to attend last week. Was this announced sitting of the Committee without falling foul of the very then? If it was not, can you tell us when you and convention that prevents this. Conservative members of Mr Speaker were informed that the motion was to be the Health Committee have previously been referred to tabled? the Liaison Committee by a vote in the Committee, and here we have it again. How do we defend ourselves? Mr Deputy Speaker: It was a business motion that was agreed yesterday, but not the terminology, I presume. Mr Deputy Speaker: Does anyone else want to speak Mr Speaker is not in the Chair so I do not know when on this matter? he was told. I was told about five minutes ago when I came into the Chair. [Interruption.] No, that is correct. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Further to There is a business motion. [Interruption.] Mr Doughty, that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do think it is we are trying to deal with this. We have many other an absolute outrage that the hon. Member for Bristol points of order on that matter. North West (Charlotte Leslie) did not give us notice that she was raising the matter. She is subject to a Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Further to that point referral. Other Select Committees have chosen not to of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have had some slightly publish reports. strange events on the Budget, with Ministers speaking from the Government Dispatch Box—from the Treasury Mr Deputy Speaker: I am sure that you are aware that Bench—but speaking for their parties. My understanding Mr Speaker has sent a letter to the Chair of the Select is that the Government speak from there—the Government Committee. I can also inform you that it is not a matter Benches. May we be clear? Is the motion a Government for the Chair; it is a matter for the Committee. In the motion, which has therefore been signed off by the new Parliament, there will also be a new Committee coalition partners, or is it a motion from the Conservative that can look into it. Unfortunately, as I say, it is not a party? matter for the Chair. 1537 25 MARCH 2015 Prevention and Suppression of 1538 Terrorism Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism of claiming attacks on behalf of the insurgency as a whole, it can be difficult to identify the Haqqani network’s specific responsibility for attacks, but the group is believed 7.16 pm to have been responsible for the attack against the British The Minister for Security and Immigration (James embassy vehicle in November 2014 that killed six people, Brokenshire): I beg to move, including a UK national and an Afghan member of UK embassy staff, and that injured more than 30 people. That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2015, which was laid before this It is likely that the Haqqani network will continue to House on 23 March, be approved. view Kabul as a key target location due to the concentration of UK and western interests in the capital. The threat level in the UK, which is set by the independent Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, remains In conclusion, it is absolutely right that we add JUA at “severe”. This means that a terrorist attack in our and the Haqqani network to the list of proscribed country is highly likely and could occur without warning. organisations in schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act, subject We can never entirely eliminate the threat from terrorism, to the agreement of the House and the other place. The but we are determined to do all we can to minimise the order will come into force on Friday 27 March. threat to the UK and to our interests abroad. It is also important that we demonstrate our support for other members of the international community in their efforts 7.21 pm to tackle terrorism wherever it occurs. Proscription is an Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I important part of the Government’s strategy to disrupt thank the Minister for his statement. There is a long terrorist activities. tradition of cross-party co-operation on national security. The two groups we propose to add to the list of The Opposition will support the Government motion. terrorist organisations, amending schedule 2 to the Terrorism We are satisfied that the groups included meet the test Act 2000, are Jamaat ul-Ahrar and the Haqqani network. of terrorism under section 3 of the 2000 Act. This is the eighteenth proscription order under the Act. This is the last time we will discuss a proscription Under section 3, the Home Secretary has the power to order during this Parliament. I believe it is the eighth proscribe an organisation if she believes it is currently time I have responded for the Opposition on a proscription concerned in terrorism. The effect of proscription is order, and the sixth time in the past two years. The that a listed organisation is outlawed and is unable to increasing rate of proscription orders reflects the increasing operate in the UK. It is a criminal offence for a person terror threat in recent years and the emergence of terror to belong to, support or arrange a meeting in support of groups across the world. a proscribed organisation, or to wear clothing or carry articles in public that arouse reasonable suspicion that During this Parliament, we have proscribed groups an individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed such as Boko Haram from Nigeria, and Imarat Kavkaz organisation. from the Caucasus. Less than two years ago, we were proscribing the Islamic State in the Levant, which is Having carefully considered all the evidence, the Home now the world’s largest, best-funded and most powerful Secretary believes that JUA and the Haqqani network terrorist organisation ever. The two groups we are discussing are both currently concerned in terrorism. Hon. Members are, in some ways, a break with the trend of the past five will understand that I am unable to comment on specific years. They are established and well-publicised groups intelligence, but I can provide a summary of each relating to long-standing terror groups including al-Qaeda group’s activities in turn. and the Taliban. Jamaat ul-Ahrar is a militant Islamist group that split The Opposition, as always, have not had access to the away from Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan in August 2014. same information about the groups as the Minister. JUA aims to establish an Islamic caliphate in Pakistan However, given that the two groups are already well and aspires to extend global jihad into the Indian established and high profile, and are linked to a series of subcontinent. The group has claimed responsibility for shocking and violent terrorist acts, we are happy to a number of recent attacks. In September 2014, JUA’s support the Government motion. spokesman released a statement criticising the British Government for arresting suspected Al Muhajiroun As the Minister laid out in his statement, JUA is an associates and made a threat, stating that Islamic extremist group that is seeking to establish a so-called Islamic caliphate in Pakistan, and to commit a “your future security depends upon how nicely you treat the global jihad across the Indian subcontinent and beyond. Muslims in Britain”. As he explained, the group is linked to several high-profile Additionally, the group has claimed responsibility for attacks from last year, and has spoken out to support the fatal attacks on Christian sites in Lahore earlier this UK-based hate preacher Anjem Choudary. month. The Haqqani network appears to be an even larger The Haqqani network is an Islamist nationalist group group, hailing from Afghanistan and aiming to establish seeking to establish sharia law and to control territory sharia law and take control of territory. As the Minister in Afghanistan. It is ideologically aligned with the Taliban. said, the group is aligned with both the Taliban and It has links with a number of terrorist groups in the al-Qaeda, as well as with other known terror groups region, including proscribed central Asian group Islamic such as Islamic Jihad Union. Taken together, the groups Jihad Union, and long-established links with al-Qaeda. provide a substantial force with a reach across central The Haqqani network continues to play an active Asia. The Opposition are particularly concerned about and influential role in the Afghan insurgency in the east the apparent involvement of the Haqqani network in of the country, and is seeking to expand its influence into attacks on the British embassy, and so absolutely support other areas of Afghanistan. Given the Taliban practice its proscription. 1539 Prevention and Suppression of 25 MARCH 2015 1540 Terrorism [Diana Johnson] and secured the removal of nine Twitter accounts and one Facebook account relating to Jamaat-ul-Ahrar. I agree with the Minister that proscription is a vital The Haqqani network has no formal social media presence tool against terrorism, and that it enables us to tackle at present, but the CTIRU continues to monitor the and disrupt terror groups co-operating around the world, situation. but as we come to the end of a Parliament during which The industry must ensure that the internet does not there has been an exceptional number of proscription become a safe haven for terrorists and extremists. orders, we need to consider whether the proscription Communications service providers have a responsibility powers we currently use are having the results we require. to prevent their networks from being used to recruit The effect of a proscription order is to make it illegal to vulnerable people and plot attacks. That is why the join, support or even wear a uniform associated with a Home Secretary attended the recent countering violent terrorist group, but it seems that proscription orders are extremism summit in the United States—it was attended not having the effect of reducing a group’s presence on by representatives from more than 70 countries and social media. I am sure the Minister is acutely aware of large communications service providers—to emphasise the findings of the Intelligence and Security Committee the importance of the work we are doing and the fact that social media sites were a “safe haven” for terrorist that more needs to be done. That is precisely what this groups. Government are committed to doing. The last proscription order we passed in the House On enforcement, between 2001 and the end of March related to a group that had Arabic and English official 2014, 33 people were charged with proscription offences Twitter accounts, and an official YouTube channel. They as a primary offence in Great Britain and 16 have been seem to be unaffected by the proscription order. Various convicted. Obviously, the ability exists to make arrests, Twitter accounts associate themselves with the Haqqani and arrests are being made in relation to alleged proscription network and an associated group that has posted numerous offences. That may lead to other charges relating to YouTube videos. terrorism, and it is important that that is understood. Does the Minister agree that we need to reconsider I welcome the House’s support for the proscription the situation whereby legislation says it is illegal to wear order under discussion. It is important that we are a uniform, but there is no problem hosting extremist vigilant. The threat we face from terrorism is real and videos or distributing hate messages to millions of pervasive and it will continue. We have a generational people? Why was there nothing in Monday’s counter- struggle against ISIL and the ideology that underpins terrorism strategy announcement to deal with social media? it. That is why this Government are committed to our I want to press the Minister on the issue of prosecutions continued security. of members, supporters and facilitators of proscribed In my last speech of this Parliament, I know this organisations. The ISC report on Lee Rigby’s murder, House will want to join me in commending and sending which was published last year, highlighted the low number a big thank you to the police, the security services and of prosecutions and the difficulties the police face in our intelligence agencies for their tireless work in keeping obtaining the necessary evidence. Have the Government us safe and ensuring that that continues into the future. had a chance to respond to that particular aspect of the Question put and agreed to. report? Business without Debate 7.25 pm Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I do not want to EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS detain the House for longer than is necessary. I welcome Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Order, the Minister’s commitment to the changes. The attack 24 March and Standing Order No. 119(11)), on the church in Lahore was carried out by people who move from organisation to organisation. Some of those INVESTMENT PLAN FOR EUROPE involved have also been involved in other attacks, but That this House takes note of European Union Documents they go under a different name each time. Is it possible No.16115/14, a Commission Communication: An investment plan for us to take a different approach? Rather than having for Europe, No. 5112/15 and Addendum, a draft Regulation on to come back here every time a new organisation claims the European Fund for Strategic Investments and amending responsibility for something that involves people who Regulations (EU) No. 1291/2013 and (EU) No. 1316/2013, and have been involved in other attacks, is there any way No. 5317/15, Draft Amending Budget No. 1 to the General Budget 2015 accompanying the draft Regulation on the European that we could circumvent this process? Fund for Strategic Investments and amending Regulations (EU) On social media, last night I attended a talk on No.1291/2013 and (EU) No. 1316/2013; agrees with the Government women and terrorism that underlined very clearly the that at a time of ongoing economic fragility in Europe and tight threat of social media and how it is used to influence constraints on domestic public spending, a focus on jobs and people. Is there anything more we can do to address the growth to facilitate the economic recovery of Europe should be issue of social media? welcomed; notes that the Draft Amending Budget is budget neutral and is funded from reallocations from within the ceiling for the 2014–20 Multiannual Financial Framework, which was 7.26 pm secured by the Prime Minister in 2013 and which delivers an unprecedented real-terms reduction compared with the 2007–13 James Brokenshire: On social media, I underline the period; notes that the proposed structure respects the integrity of work of the counter-terrorism internet referral unit, the European Investment Bank and does not duplicate or pre-empt which since February 2010 has secured the removal of the existing governance structures of the institution; and supports more than 80,000 pieces of unlawful terrorist-related the Government’s objective of ensuring that the proposed mechanism content that encourages or glorifies acts of terrorism. contributes to growth and investment in the UK.—(Mr Wallace.) In the context of today’s debate, CTIRU has identified Question agreed to. 1541 Business without Debate25 MARCH 2015 Business without Debate 1542

DELEGATED LEGISLATION The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage NHS England Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the to provide a radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital in leave of the House, we shall take motions 5 to 10 together. Stevenage in order to make the journey for radiotherapy Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Order, treatment much easier for patients who live in the Hitchin 24 March and Standing Order No. 118(6)), and Harpenden constituency. And the Petitioners remain, etc.] PESTICIDES [P001491] That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of the Advisory Remediation of contaminated land in Coedpoeth and Committees on Pesticides) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 15 December 2014, be approved. Brymbo Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): My petition SOCIAL SERVICES concerns the remediation of contaminated land in That the draft Care Act 2014 and Children and Families Coedpoeth and Brymbo. Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 5 February, be approved. The petition states: The Petition of residents of the UK, STATISTICS BOARD Declares that land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo is contaminated That the draft Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 as a result of pollution from lead smelting on the site over (Disclosure of Revenue Information) Regulations 2015, which 200 years ago...further that residents of Coedpoeth and Brymbo were laid before this House on 5 February, be approved. are calling for the Government to step in in the same way that they did in Blanefield, Scotland where part of the cost of removing lead and arsenic contamination was met by the Government; and BROADCASTING further that a petition from residents of Coedpoeth and Brymbo That the draft Community Radio (Amendment) Order 2015, has been signed by 1555 individuals. which was laid before this House on 26 February, be approved. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to provide funding for LOCAL GOVERNMENT the remediation of contaminated land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo. That the draft Local Authorities (Prohibition of Charging Following is the full text of the petition: Residents to Deposit Household Waste) Order 2015, which was [The Petition of residents of the UK, laid before this House on 25 February, be approved. Declares that land in Coedpoeth and Brymbo is That the draft Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Powers of Entry: Safeguards) (England) Order 2015, which was laid contaminated as a result of pollution from lead smelting before this House on 27 February, be approved.—(Mr Wallace.) on the site over 200 years ago; further that the local council Question agreed to. has informed residents that they must pay a proportion of the remediation which, in some cases, could cost up to £10,000; further that residents of Coedpoeth and Brymbo PETITIONS are calling for the Government to step in in the same way that they did in Blanefield, Scotland where part of the Radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital, Stevenage cost of removing lead and arsenic contamination was met by the Government; and further that a petition from 7.31 pm residents of Coedpoeth and Brymbo has been signed by Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): I 1555 individuals. would like to present a petition from my constituents in The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Hitchin and Harpenden, who are concerned about the Commons urges the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to tiring and lengthy journey to London that many cancer provide funding for the remediation of contaminated land patients requiring radiotherapy have to make, sometimes in Coedpoeth and Brymbo. daily. They call for a satellite radiotherapy centre to be And the Petitioners remain, etc.] established at the Lister hospital. The petition is similar [P001483] to one presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) and my hon. and learned Heavy Goods Vehicles on the A519 (Staffordshire) Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) and has 1,602 signatures. Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con): The petition is from many hundreds of residents in my constituency. The petition states: The petition states: The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage NHS England to provide a The Petition of residents of the constituency of Stone in radiotherapy facility at Lister Hospital in Stevenage in order to Staffordshire, make the journey for radiotherapy treatment much easier for Declares that residents of Eccleshall and Woodseaves object to patients who live in the Hitchin and Harpenden constituency. the use of the A519 (running through Eccleshall and Woodseaves) Following is the full text of the petition: by HGVs; further that the Petitioners object to the application for a new access road to serve the Raleigh Hall Industrial Estate, [The Petition of residents of the constituency of Hitchin which would increase HGV use of the A519; further that the new and Harpenden, access point would be more dangerous because large HGVs Declares that patients who are residents of Hitchin, would be turning to join a 60mph road; further that the number Harpenden, Redbourn, Sandridge, Wheathampstead and of these vehicles using the A519 route has become completely unacceptable, with hundreds passing through a day; further that the surrounding villages have to travel to Mount Vernon the increased HGV traffic poses a serious danger to pedestrians; Hospital in Hillingdon to receive radiotherapy treatment further that the risk of a crash is high, and could cause considerable and that this journey is long and exacting and often has to damage to property and loss of life; further that the subsequent be made on consecutive days. volume of HGVs using Stafford Street and Castle Street in 1543 Business without Debate25 MARCH 2015 Business without Debate 1544

[Sir William Cash] Housing development on Midmar Paddock, Edinburgh

Eccleshall means they are damaging the road surface; further that this situation has led to problems in Eccleshall because HGVs Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I wish to present have difficulty passing each other on the Stafford Road outside a petition on behalf of my constituents to prevent the Claremont Garage, putting pedestrians at risk; further that housing development on Midmar Paddock in Edinburgh. the pavements in Woodseaves are very narrow, and HGVs are The petitioners declare that Midmar Paddock in mounting them to pass one another; further that the A519 is not a Edinburgh is used by hundreds of people every week for primary route and there is no intention of it becoming a primary route and that Satellite Navigation companies should be advised open-air exercise with children, families and dogs, as a of this matter; further that planning permission has been provided green lung in the city; further that it is green-belt land, for haulage companies to set up in the Eccleshall area with a focus a special landscape area, designated open space and a on the A519; further that Woodseaves residents in particular have local nature reserve, where planning developments have been forced to abandon their front gardens because of noise and been resisted for decades; further that it is under imminent pollution, they are unable to sleep at night because of the noise, threat following its sale with development potential for and their homes are being damaged by the weight of HGV traffic housing development, and a planning application is on the road; and further that approximately 3 HGVs pass through Woodseaves per minute. expected shortly; and further that a local petition on this matter was signed by 330 individuals in the local The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Department of Transport to impose a speed restriction area, supported by the wonderful Friends of the Hermitage and weight limit on HGVs using the A519, to object to the of Braid, and the Morningside community council, proposed application for a new access road off the A519 that will especially Mr Goff Cantley. serve the Raleigh Hall Industrial Estate and to advise Satellite The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Navigation companies that the A519 is not a primary route. Commons urges the Secretary of State for Scotland to And the Petitioners remain, etc. encourage the Scottish Government and the City of [P001482] Edinburgh council to intervene to stop housing development on Midmar Paddock. Parking outside Fairmore Medical Practice in Nelson Following is the full text of the petition: [The Petition of residents of the UK, Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The petition states: Declares that Midmar Paddock in Edinburgh is used by The Petition of residents of Nelson, hundreds of people every week for open air exercise with Declares that the Petitioners believe patients of Fairmore children and dogs; further that it is green belt land, a Medical Practice of 211-213 Leeds Road, Nelson are having special landscape area, designated open space and a local difficulty finding suitable parking places near the practice, and nature conservation site; further that it is under imminent that the Petitioners believe there is a vacant site on Leeds Road, threat of housing development and a planning application Nelson near the practice that could be used as a car park facility. is expected shortly; and further that a local Petition on The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons this matter was signed by 330 individuals. urges the Government to support the Fairmore Medical Practice Patient Participation Group in securing additional parking spaces The Petitioners therefore request that the House of and to encourage NHS England to reconsider their funding Commons urges the Secretary of State for Scotland to request to support extending car parking facilities at Leeds Road. encourage the Scottish Government to intervene to stop And the Petitioners remain, etc. housing development on Midmar Paddock. [P001485] And the Petitioners remain, etc.] [P001487] Urgent care centre at Chippenham Hospital

Changes to Budgets for GPs Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I wish to present a petition on behalf of my constituents calling on the Government to fund an urgent care centre at Chippenham (Wakefield) (Lab): I should like to community hospital. The proposals come from present a petition on behalf of my constituents about Chippenham’s doctors. The town’s three GP practices the Government’s proposed changes to GP budgets in came together to draw up the plans, which would bring Wakefield. It is supported by many of our local GPs, urgent services together in one place—accessible 24 hours local councillors such as Councillor Rory Bickerton, a day, seven days a week—relieving pressure on accident and Ryan Case, who is a local resident. and emergency departments at nearby hospitals in Bath The petition states: and Swindon. The petition is signed by several hundred local residents on paper and online. The Petition of residents of the Wakefield constituency, The petition states: Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about the proposed £3.8 million cuts from budgets for GPs; further that these cuts The Petition of residents of the Chippenham constituency, could result in small practices closing, 38 full time doctors or Declares that an urgent care centre at Chippenham Hospital is 95 full time nurses being lost and patients waiting longer to be needed to improve access to urgent health services and to relieve seen by a GP; and further that a local petition on this matter has pressure on nearby Accident and Emergency departments. been signed by 850 individuals. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to fund an Urgent care centre at Chippenham urges the Government to reconsider the proposal to make cuts to Hospital as proposed by Chippenham’s GPs. budgets for GPs in the Wakefield area. And the Petitioners remain, etc. And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P001486] [P001489] 1545 Business without Debate 25 MARCH 2015 1546

Development on Greenbelt Land in Edinburgh Social Care and Military Compensation Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I wish to present Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House a petition on development on green-belt land in Edinburgh. do now adjourn.—(Mr Foster.) The petition states: The Petition of residents of the UK, 7.44 pm Declares that the Local Development Plan 2015–2020 has proposed a number of sites on the south side of Edinburgh for Mr (Blackpool South) (Lab): As development; further that local residents want the sites at Broomhills, has now been confirmed several times, this is the last Old Station Road, Burdiehouse, The Drum, Ellen’s Glen and occasion to raise such issues in this Session, and I wish Moredun to be exempt from the new plan; further that local to speak about the unfair treatment of some veterans residents, community groups and the local community councils— owing to the disparity in the way that different armed especially the Gilmerton Inch community council and forces compensation schemes are treated when social the Liberton and District community council— care costs are calculated. I pay tribute to Poppyscotland are concerned by the likely impact on local amenities if these and the Royal British Legion, which highlighted that plans are approved; further that the Petitioners call for the plan to issue with their Insult to Injury campaign. In the past, I be scrapped and a proper process to be put in place to determine have been pleased to work closely with the Royal British the future development of the city which works in conjunction Legion, both nationally and locally in Blackpool, and with local communities and not against them; and further that a together we delivered a petition with 3,000 signatures local petition on this matter was signed by 130 individuals. calling for stronger punishment for those who vandalise It was also signed by the Liberton and District community war memorials. I was also pleased to support the Blackpool council and the Gilmerton Inch community council. armed forces covenant and veterans charter in 2011. I The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons wish to touch on that veterans charter and covenant, urges the Secretary of State for Scotland to encourage the Scottish Government to remove the sites on the south side of Edinburgh praying in aid the arguments I will present tonight. (Broomhills, Old Station Road, Burdiehouse, The Drum, Ellen’s As chair of the all-party group on veterans, which Glen and Moredun) from the Local Development Plan’s proposals deals with a number of issues, including welfare, I was for development and to put a process in place to determine future fortunate to initiate a meeting in Parliament with the development of Edinburgh which works in conjunction with local Forces in Mind Trust. Its latest report is about support communities. for veterans’ families, and we will hear tonight about And the Petitioners remain, etc. veterans who are losing the means to support their [P001488] families when compensation payments are removed. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): Fundraising year-on-year by the Royal British Legion On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I had and other ex-service organisations, including Poppyscotland, intended to present a petition to the House tomorrow in provides extra support for veterans. Locally and nationally, relation to my constituents wanting three ships—HMS our veterans should not be left by the state in financial Cressy, HMS Hogue and HMS Aboukir—to be protected circumstances that are unfair. The state must do its under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. bit, particularly when there are unequal Government However, I have been advised that as tomorrow is the regulations. last sitting day, there will be no Adjournment debate, Tonight I will focus on the disparity between the way and on that basis no Member can present a petition to that the two different compensation schemes operate. the House. Can you advise me? If I bag the petition Those injured before April 2005 received compensation today will it still be regarded as having been formally for particular injuries through the war pension scheme, presented to the House? which provides regular payments based on the severity Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): The of injury. Those injured from April 2005 onwards receive hon. Gentleman asks a good question, and he has done support for any disablement through the armed forces well in drawing to the attention of the House, Members compensation scheme—AFCS. That comes in two parts: on the Treasury Bench and undoubtedly the relevant a lump sum and, in a similar fashion to the war pension, Minister the point that he quite rightly wishes to make a regular payment for the most severely disabled veterans on behalf of his constituents. I can assure him that if he and ex-servicemen. Those two schemes seek to compensate produces the petition today, it may go in the bag, and it for the pain and challenge of particular injuries that will be treated as a presented petition. The House has some veterans receive when serving bravely in our armed heard what he has had to say. forces, but when it comes to how they are processed through the social care system, they are treated very differently. As of 2012, any veteran supported by the newer AFCS scheme has all that income disregarded while they are means-tested for social care. Although their other forms are rightly considered so that they make the same contribution as any civilian to their social care, they will still have left over the income they receive to compensate for the injuries they received in the military. Those on the older war pension scheme, which could cover awards from the second world war up to 2005, receive far less support. Only £10 of their war pension is automatically disregarded, and the rest can be clawed back by local authorities into paying for their standard social care. The full value of the war pension—which of 1547 Social Care and Military 25 MARCH 2015 Social Care and Military 1548 Compensation Compensation [Mr Gordon Marsden] service and that it is appropriate in some cases for special treatment to be applied to those who are serving course reflects the level of disablement suffered by that or have served. We have already seen that as a result of veteran—is on average £80 a week and can be as much failing to disregard the war pension, Ministers are not as several hundred pounds a week for the most severely providing any special treatment for veterans. More injured. fundamentally, however, they end up failing the rule of Does the Minister agree that it does not show enormous no disadvantage, too, as the injuries incurred purely as respect to veterans on the war pension scheme, who a result of action in the armed forces receive little have fought in conflicts from the second world war to compensation when income such as the war pension is Korea, the Falklands and in some cases as recently as diverted into providing standard civilian social care. Afghanistan, if we suggest that the pain of those disabling I am pleased, therefore, that my colleagues in the injuries is worth only £10 a week? What compounds Labour Front Bench team have pledged, under a future that regrettable diminishment of the veterans’ sacrifice Labour Government, to review the compensation schemes is the apparent injustice and inconsistency in the way to see where they might be improved. In particular, the the two schemes are treated in social care and the way focus should be to take a laser-like focus to existing and different arms of Government look at the problem. new rules that affect veterans through the prism of Almost all local authorities use their discretion fully the armed forces covenant. We want to ensure that the to exempt the income from both compensation schemes principles of no disadvantage and special treatment are when council tax or housing benefit is calculated, and met by all arms of government. central Government have recognised that both types of All Members have, at one time or another, drawn compensation should be left untouched when the new attention to the strong feelings of many veterans and universal credit is calculated for recipients who have others about insufficient engagement with the concerns served in the forces. Yet protecting that income for raised in relation to social care and military compensation. council tax and housing benefit will be in vain if the I welcome the reports from the Government, the Royal great majority of it is then lost to pay for social care. As British Legion and Poppyscotland that talks are ongoing I have said, Government guidelines only disregard £10 of about how the two schemes might be aligned, but we the war pension, and in present circumstances local need to see results. After all, every year, as more elderly authorities have not been able to go much further, with veterans pass away, the group of people who could only 12% of councils using discretionary funding fully benefit from a change in the rules diminishes by 5%. Half to exempt those on the older scheme. That is completely that group are aged 70 or over. We are running out of inconsistent with the way that civilian personal injury time to offer these people the chance to navigate social compensation is treated in social care means-testing. care in far greater comfort, with access to the full When saved in a trust fund, that income is fully disregarded deserts of their military compensation. With a change by local authorities as they calculate care costs. What is in the rules, we can put this right, but it needs real left appears to be a social care system that, however Government commitment. I have to say, however, that worthy its objectives, fails to meet two criteria of the when we look at the Government’s stated objections so armed forces covenant that Members from both sides of far, they seem to give the impression of delaying progress the House were proud to support. rather than accelerating it. Ministers have claimed that some of those on the old Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is appropriate war pension scheme also receive top-ups to their pension, that the last Adjournment debate of this Parliament which are designed to help to pay for care costs. Only concerns our veterans and our soldiers, and I congratulate 6% of war pensioners actually receive such care top-ups. the hon. Gentleman on securing it. Many Members More to the point, it is surely not beyond the wit of the have a particular interest in the armed forces. In the Government to devise guidelines that will include those years that I have been a Member of Parliament, we have care top-ups in the payment for social care, but not had the chance to speak on behalf of our veterans. I include that part of their income that relates to the pain know many veterans who suffer from post-traumatic suffered through injuries received in the field of conflict. stress disorder and their number, after Iraq and Afghanistan, This is a position that the Royal British Legion accepts has increased significantly in the past few years. Does would be perfectly reasonable. the hon. Gentleman agree that the onus is on the Ministry Ministers have also suggested that military compensation of Defence, the Department of Health and local could be placed in a trust fund to protect it from social government to work together to address this issue? The care means-testing. However, given how war pension Minister represents the Department of Health. Other works, only a small amount is provided as a lump sum. Departments, which are not represented here tonight, For the most severely injured veterans, most compensation need to work alongside her. is provided through regular payments that cannot be placed in a trust. It has also been suggested that the war Mr Marsden: I agree with the hon. Gentleman, who pensions scheme was established before the modern is assiduous in covering veterans’ issues in this House. I understanding of personal injury compensation, yet it pay tribute to the military from Northern Ireland for is clearly understood that way, as is evident, as much as the sacrifices they have suffered over the years. He is anywhere, from the words of the veterans Minister, who absolutely right. We are pleased that the Minister is here said: tonight, but the issue can only be solved out of Government “The War Pensions Scheme provides no fault compensation to silos. Service personnel disabled as a result of their service in HM Forces.” The covenant enshrines the principles of no disadvantage In the discussion of all these disregards, different and special treatment. These, in turn, dictate that a person schemes and allowances, the human effects of these should experience no disadvantage as a result of military rules and their perceived injustices can too often be 1549 Social Care and Military 25 MARCH 2015 Social Care and Military 1550 Compensation Compensation forgotten. In my area, the Royal British Legion estimates 7.59 pm that 600 veterans in the pre-2005 group could see their war pension eaten up by care costs, and Members across the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health country will have service constituents who have told (Jane Ellison): I am grateful to the hon. Member for emotive tales of the effects of losing their compensation. Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) for bringing this important issue before the House. It provides me with an opportunity Keith Clarke, who is 43 years old, was left paraplegic to clarify our current position. I hope the hon. Gentleman while attempting to put out a fire on his submarine. He will allow me first to place the issue in the broader receives a large war pension for the most severe injuries, context, particularly the context of reforms in social but £100 is lost every week to meet the cost of his care care. worker, who visits daily to help him dress and look after his two children, one of whom is also disabled. His only To make some sense of that broader context, at the other benefit comes from statutory benefits. He told turn of this century there were 25 times as many people : aged 85 and over than there were at the turn of the last “I feel angry and frustrated. It’s…an injustice to be treated as a century. Although this is something to be celebrated, it second-class citizen.” also means there are more people needing care and Fred Cannon, who fought on the Gold beach at support, and three quarters of us can expect to need Normandy on D-day when he was 19 years old, was the long-term care. only survivor of the company to come home, but a Care and support is an issue that has, I think, been severe bullet wound left him with one leg shorter than ignored for far too long, and I am proud to say that this the other. Now in his 90s, like too many others, he is left Government have taken steps to put that right. The with only £10 a week compensation. Then there is the Care Act 2014 is a bold and historic piece of legislation 50-year-old Lancashire veteran who was diagnosed with that for the first time places adult care and support law osteoporosis from his time in the Army. He said: in a single clear statute. The Act puts people at the heart “Unless the system changes, I’m concerned that I will lose a lot of the system by enshrining the principle of individual of my pension, which isn’t fair. People who receive AFCS don’t well-being at its core. It will ensure that people themselves pay for their social care—and rightly so—but why should we pay will be able to shape their care and support, focusing on just because we were injured before April 2005? It doesn’t make what they want to achieve and the outcomes that matter sense.” to them, and it will support them to maintain their Of the two principles of the armed forces covenant, it well-being and independence for longer. is ultimately not special treatment that veterans want; all they want is not to be put at a disadvantage: to have The Care Act focuses on acting early to prevent the injuries they suffered in the armed forces compensated people reaching crisis points, and will ensure that everyone for in their own right and then to make a contribution can access information and advice to help them understand from their other income towards social care, just as any the new system and what it means for them. This means civilian would rightly do. They want fair treatment for services for the broader community—not just those with all and a system that does not discriminate on the basis assessed needs—further supporting our aim to help people of an arbitrary date; they want to be treated the same in to stay independent for as long as possible. When we do the different means tests that central and local government need care, the Act provides for a single threshold for operate; and they want to be treated in the same way as eligibility to care and support in England, ensuring civilians who receive compensation for personal injury. transparency and consistency, irrespective of where we live. I am pleased that this historic legislation will come Whatever the historical context of the creation of the into force exactly one week from today. war pension scheme or the complexities of its operation today, it is surely possible to design a system that will We do not intend to stop there. How we pay for meet the requirements of the proper 21st century fairness health care and support is just as important as the care that the veterans are asking for. The time has come to we receive. Most people do not realise that care and go beyond discussions and look for concrete solutions support has never been free, unlike health, and we have to the disparity between the two different military always been asked to contribute what we can afford. compensation schemes, rather than focusing on the Those who have the greatest needs and the longest care obstacles to a more just system. I am pleased to note journeys risk losing nearly everything simply to meet that Labour would review the fairness of military that cost. compensation in the light of the armed forces covenant, and I call on Ministers to show a similar political will For all the other areas of life where we face such and commitment. risks, we are protected by the welfare state or we can protect ourselves through insurance. When it comes to Many Members will have the date of 7 May on their care, however, successive Governments have taken a minds tonight, but many other people will have a possibly different view. We are often left alone at the point when more important date—the next day—on their minds. we are most vulnerable. That is clearly not good enough, That will be the 70th anniversary of VE-day. I feel and I am proud that we will be introducing the biggest honoured that both my late parents served in that reforms of how we pay for care in over 65 years. We do conflict, and I am mindful of the debt we owe to those so through the cap on care costs, which will put an end of that generation who remain with us. At this time, we to the risk of catastrophic costs, and we will provide must surely refocus our energies to ensure that we greater financial help for those who need it most. provide all the support that the brave men and women who have served in conflicts spanning the last 70 years The detailed proposals of how the new system will deserve, particularly as they make their way through work are currently out for consultation. With just under challenging periods of their lives in the social care a week still to go, I am pleased that we have already had system. over 700 responses and have engaged with over 1,000 people 1551 Social Care and Military 25 MARCH 2015 Social Care and Military 1552 Compensation Compensation [Jane Ellison] help us to understand the issue better. It is vital for us to understand it fully before considering what is to be through a series of events helping to ensure that we take done next. We must understand how the two schemes account of a wide range of views. The new cap system work, and the implications of considering any changes, will play a critical role in helping people to plan and to ensure that there are no unintended consequences, prepare for the risk of needing care and support, and and we must also understand any cost implications of create the right conditions for the financial sector to change. I note what the hon. Gentleman said about the create new products that could cover these costs. commitment of his party colleagues to reviewing the When it comes to those who have served their country scheme, but that commitment to a review suggests that and have made a great sacrifice in the line of duty, this they too are cautious, and feel the same need to understand Government have given a very clear commitment to the possible implications. support members of the armed forces community, both serving personnel and veterans. The hon. Member for Mr Marsden: I do not wish to intrude on the Minister’s Blackpool South has illustrated exactly why that is the time, and I agree that the process is complex. I recall right thing to do. We have enshrined that commitment Churchill’s observation that it was not the end or even in legislation through the armed forces covenant. the beginning of the end, but it might be the end of the As the hon. Gentleman outlined, for those who have beginning. Will the Minister tell us how far down the been injured in the line of duty there are currently two line we might be expected to be at this point, and what different schemes that provide compensation, based on stage the Government think has been reached? when the injury occurred. For those who were injured before the 6 April 2005, there is the war pension scheme; Jane Ellison: I will come to that, and will try to give for those injured afterwards, there is the armed forces the hon. Gentleman a bit of reassurance about the compensation scheme. While both schemes have the advanced and ongoing work that is taking place. same goals—to offer financial support to those injured Social care is a priority for the Government, and, in in the line of duty—they are ultimately both a product the context of difficult spending decisions, we have of their time and the social context in which they taken steps to protect care and support services. For were developed. Under both schemes, personal injury example, we have allocated extra funds for those services compensation lump sums are disregarded when deciding during the current Parliament. We have created a better how much someone can pay for care, provided the care fund, which, next month, will introduce a £5.3 billion payments are placed in a trust—I noted the hon. pooled budget for health and care that will provide Gentleman’s concerns about regular payments—but other much needed funding for care and support, and will sorts of payments may be taken into account. break new ground in driving closer integration of services. The war pension scheme was created after the first Although spending on care and support is ultimately world war in response to the large numbers whose lives a decision for local government, we must be mindful of had been irrevocably changed as a result of their service the overall fiscal position. I think that Members on to their country. In 1918, however, there was no welfare both sides of the House agree on that. We must ensure state, no NHS and no benefits system. Most people did that if we change the charging rules nationally, the cost not have access to private pensions, meaning that for will be met. To that end, my officials are continuing to those needing care but without family or friends to work with their counterparts at the Ministry of Defence—I support them, the outlook was often bleak. The scheme hope that that gives the hon. Gentleman some sense of therefore provided for that. It provides a basic war momentum, and deals with his concern about “silo” disablement pension and a variety of supplementary working—and with the Royal British Legion, with a allowances that would be equivalent to the modern view to considering the issue during the spending review benefits system, and it reflects the fact that people that will take place after the election. needed to pay for both health and care costs. I hope that the hon. Gentleman—and, indeed, all By contrast, the armed forces compensation scheme hon. Members—will welcome the historic reforms that introduced in 2005 reflects the fact that we have an will come into force in just one week’s time. They are advanced welfare state. It therefore looks to the NHS very significant in the context of the broader issue of and the benefits system to provide support, just as it care. This Government have been the first to prioritise would to anyone, ensuring the principle of “no care and support. I hope that Members in all parts of disadvantage” enshrined in the armed forces covenant. the House will feel able to welcome the clear plans that I The scheme introduced a modern, fair and simple have set out for the future. As for the specific issue that system that provides a strong basis for the future, but the hon. Gentleman has raised, I hope he recognises this is a difficult and complex issue. I note the hon. that this is ongoing work which is taken very seriously. Gentleman’s frustration—as he said, there has been His securing of what has turned out to be the last much discussion—but, as I have said, the issue is complex. Adjournment debate of this Parliament has underlined Depending on the extent of their injuries, veterans can the importance of the issue that he has raised. I think receive a number of different allowances under the war that, throughout the purdah period and beyond, the pension scheme, such as constant attendance allowance, debate will give added momentum to the work that is an unemployability supplement, comforts allowance, being done. age allowance, treatment allowance, mobility supplement, Given that this has been the last Adjournment debate and medical expenses. of the current Parliament, Madam Deputy Speaker—and The Royal British Legion broadly accepts that the you and I have shared a number Adjournment debates—let treatment of war pension scheme payments is complex. me take this opportunity to thank you and, through I am grateful to it for highlighting its concerns, and for you, Mr Speaker and the other Deputy Speakers. I also continuing to working with departmental officials to thank all the staff of the House, and, in particular, 1553 Social Care and Military 25 MARCH 2015 Social Care and Military 1554 Compensation Compensation those who have sat through some of our late-night Officers of the House in respect of Adjournment debates. health debates, of which there have been many. However, These debates are extremely important and she has I especially thank the Chair, and all those who have taken part in many of them, as have I and the other supported the Chair during these important Adjournment Deputy Speakers and Mr Speaker, and we all appreciate debates, which give us a chance—as tonight’s debate how important they are. I also thank the hon. Member has—to explore important issues in some detail, outside for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) for introducing the the heated atmosphere that the Chamber attracts on final Adjournment debate of this Parliament. other occasions. I also thank Members in all parts of the House, some of whom are very regular attenders at Question put and agreed to. these debates, for their attendance tonight, and for the interest that they have taken in these important matters.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I thank 8.10 pm the hon. Lady for the gracious way she has thanked House adjourned. 1555 25 MARCH 2015 Deferred Division 1556

Deferred Division Hinds, Damian Penrose, John Hoban, Mr Mark Perry, Claire Hollingbery, George Pickles, rh Mr Eric INFRASTRUCTURE PLANNING Hollobone, Mr Philip Prisk, Mr Mark That the draft Infrastructure Planning (Radioactive Waste Hopkins, Kris Pritchard, Mark Geological Disposal Facilities) Order 2015, which was laid before Howarth, Sir Gerald Pugh, John this House on 12 January, be approved. Howell, John Raab, Mr Dominic The House divided: Ayes 277, Noes 33. Hughes, rh Simon Randall, rh Sir John Division No. 183] Hunter, Mark Reckless, Mark Huppert, Dr Julian Redwood, rh Mr John Hurd, Mr Nick Rees-Mogg, Jacob AYES James, Margot Reevell, Simon Adams, Nigel Davies, Glyn Javid, rh Sajid Robertson, Mr Laurence Afriyie, Adam Davies, Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Rogerson, Dan Aldous, Peter de Bois, Nick Johnson, Gareth Rosindell, Andrew Alexander, rh Danny Dinenage, Caroline Johnson, Joseph Rudd, Amber Amess, Sir David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jones, Andrew Ruffley, Mr David Andrew, Stuart Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Jones, rh Mr David Russell, Sir Bob Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr Marcus Rutley, David Baker, Steve Drax, Richard Kelly, Chris Sandys, Laura Baldry, rh Sir Tony Duddridge, James Kirby, Simon Scott, Mr Lee Baldwin, Harriett Duncan, rh Sir Alan Knight, rh Sir Greg Selous, Andrew Barclay, Stephen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kwarteng, Kwasi Shannon, Jim Barker, rh Gregory Dunne, Mr Philip Lancaster, Mark Sharma, Alok Baron, Mr John Ellis, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry Barwell, Gavin Ellison, Jane Latham, Pauline Shelbrooke, Alec Bebb, Guto Ellwood, Mr Tobias Laws, rh Mr David Shepherd, Sir Richard Bellingham, Mr Henry Elphicke, Charlie Leadsom, Andrea Simpson, rh Mr Keith Beresford, Sir Paul Eustice, George Lee, Dr Phillip Skidmore, Chris Berry, Jake Evans, Graham Lefroy, Jeremy Smith, Chloe Bingham, Andrew Evans, Jonathan Leigh, Sir Edward Smith, Henry Birtwistle, Gordon Evans, Mr Nigel Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Julian Blackman, Bob Evennett, rh Mr David Lewis, Brandon Smith, Sir Robert Blackwood, Nicola Fabricant, Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Boles, Nick Fallon, rh Michael Lidington, rh Mr David Soubry, Anna Bone, Mr Peter Field, rh Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Bottomley, Sir Peter Foster, rh Mr Don Lopresti, Jack Spencer, Mr Mark Bradley, Karen Francois, rh Mr Mark Loughton, Tim Stanley, rh Sir John Brady, Mr Graham Freer, Mike Luff, Sir Peter Stephenson, Andrew Brake, rh Tom Fuller, Richard Macleod, Mary Stevenson, John Bray, Angie Gale, Sir Roger May, rh Mrs Theresa Stewart, Bob Brazier, Mr Julian Gauke, Mr David Maynard, Paul Stewart, Iain Bridgen, Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick McCartney, Karl Stewart, Rory Brine, Steve Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl McPartland, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Brokenshire, James Glen, John Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel Browne, Mr Jeremy Goodwill, Mr Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Bruce, Fiona Gove, rh Michael Miller, rh Maria Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Grant, Mrs Helen Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Buckland, Mr Robert Grayling, rh Chris Milton, rh Anne Swales, Ian Burns, Conor Green, rh Damian Moore, rh Michael Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Burns, rh Mr Simon Greening, rh Justine Morgan, rh Nicky Swinson, Jo Burrowes, Mr David Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Morris, Anne Marie Swire, rh Mr Hugo Burstow, rh Paul Griffiths, Andrew Morris, James Syms, Mr Robert Burt, rh Alistair Gyimah, Mr Sam Mosley, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Byles, Dan Hague, rh Mr William Mowat, David Teather, Sarah Cairns, Alun Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mundell, rh David Thurso, rh John Cameron, rh Mr David Hammond, Stephen Murray, Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Campbell, Mr Gregory Hancock, rh Matthew Murrison, Dr Andrew Truss, rh Elizabeth Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hancock, Mr Mike Newmark, Mr Brooks Turner, Mr Andrew Carmichael, Neil Hands, rh Greg Newton, Sarah Tyrie, Mr Andrew Chishti, Rehman Harper, Mr Mark Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Clark, rh Greg Harrington, Richard Norman, Jesse Vara, Mr Shailesh Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harris, Rebecca Nuttall, Mr David Vickers, Martin Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hart, Simon O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Walker, Mr Charles Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harvey, Sir Nick Offord, Dr Matthew Walker, Mr Robin Collins, Damian Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Ollerenshaw, Eric Wallace, Mr Ben Colvile, Oliver Hayes, rh Mr John Opperman, Guy Ward, Mr David Crabb, rh Stephen Heald, Sir Oliver Osborne, rh Mr George Watkinson, Dame Angela Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Weatherley, Mike Davey, rh Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Paice, rh Sir James Webb, rh Steve Davies, David T. C. Hendry, rh Charles Patel, Priti Wharton, James (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Heather 1557 Deferred Division25 MARCH 2015 Deferred Division 1558

White, Chris Willott, rh Jenny Flynn, Paul McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Whittaker, Craig Wilson, Mr Rob Galloway, George McDonnell, John Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, rh Jeremy Garnier, Mark Morris, Grahame M. Wiggin, Bill Wright, Simon George, Andrew (Easington) Willetts, rh Mr David Yeo, Mr Tim Goldsmith, Zac Munt, Tessa Williams, Roger Young, rh Sir George Hames, Duncan Percy, Andrew Williamson, Gavin Zahawi, Nadhim Heath, rh Mr David Reed, Mr Jamie Hopkins, Kelvin Ritchie, Ms Margaret NOES Horwood, Martin Sanders, Mr Adrian Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Skinner, Mr Dennis Anderson, Mr David Clark, Katy Lucas, Caroline Weir, Mr Mike Beith, rh Sir Alan Corbyn, Jeremy McCartney, Jason Williams, Hywel Brooke, rh Annette Davis, rh Mr David Brown, Mr Russell Durkan, Mark Caton, Martin Edwards, Jonathan Question accordingly agreed to.

479WH 25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 480WH

Mark Tami: All right, then; I will make that point. Westminster Hall That example illustrates the fact that no matter how big a company is or how long it has been there, if events Wednesday 25 March 2015 turn against it, the impact can be devastating. More recently, UPM paper mill, which I consider to be a benchmark employer—I certainly would not have put it [SIR ROGER GALE in the Chair] on a list of companies in difficulty—announced that it would be cutting 120 jobs from its 370-strong work North Wales Economic Infrastructure force. Why? Because the demand for newsprint worldwide has declined. When the recession hit, people stopped 9.30 am buying newspapers and magazines. Even as we slowly Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting come out of recession, people’s habits have changed be now adjourned.—(Mel Stride.) and they use the internet more, so demand has not picked up again. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): It is a great In 2001, Corning Optical Fibre, a high-tech firm on pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I Deeside industrial park with more than 400 employees, begin by expressing my sympathy to the family and closed virtually overnight when world demand for optical friends of those who lost their lives in the dreadful air fibre suddenly collapsed. So sudden was the collapse crash yesterday. Airbus wings are made in Broughton, that I remember seeing at the factory millions of pounds- and the thoughts of those at the factory will be with worth of equipment that was still in its wrapping and everyone who has been affected by the tragedy. was never fitted. The lesson is that we cannot rest on It is about a year and a half since we had a debate on our laurels. a similar subject. In some areas, we have seen some big improvements, but in other areas, particularly rail, progress Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): My hon. Friend has been limited, to say the least. Despite the title of the speaks of the collapse of investment at Corning. What debate, our economic region extends beyond north Wales assessment has he made of the changes that the and includes a big proportion of the north-west of Conservatives made to the feed-in tariff when they England. I want to put on record my thanks to the came back into power in 2010? What impact did that Mersey Dee Alliance for all its work to campaign for have on Europe’s biggest solar panel factory in Wrexham? and promote investment in our area. Manufacturing is key to the region. North Wales and the north-west of England have a population of some Mark Tami: Wrexham is not in my constituency, but 8 million and economic output of some £140 billion. It people who lived in my area worked at that plant, and I is the largest manufacturing area in the UK, with more saw that it had a devastating impact. One of the worst than £25 billion of output. The area boasts some of the aspects of the situation was that the company was, I top manufactures not only in the UK but in the world. believe, encouraged to take on a lot of employees because In my area, for example, we have Airbus, Toyota, Tata, it saw growth, but that was cut from under it by the Raytheon, Convatec and many others. I could stand changes that the Government introduced. We cannot here for a long time naming all the companies that are simply assume that everything will be good, and we so important to creating jobs and growth in our area. must make sure that we give existing employers the There are many more on the other side of the border, support and encouragement that they need to invest such as Vauxhall at . The patterns of and grow. travel show that workers criss-cross the border. Some We must also look at what we can do to encourage Vauxhall employees live on the Welsh side of the border, new employers and companies to come to the area. I am and about 40% of the Airbus work force live in England not talking so much about financial assistance, but we but work in Wales. The border, to all intents and purposes, can offer a high-quality, highly skilled work force and does not exist from an economic regional point of view. employers can look to grow their businesses. Large The success of our region cannot be taken for granted. employers such as Airbus—with more than 6,500 employers Experience has shown us that once-great industries can on site, it is one of the largest manufacturing plants in and do fail. Many companies are truly global, and they western Europe—have a role in encouraging their suppliers have a choice over where to site their operations. If to site themselves nearby. Airbus has been successful in circumstances dictate, as we have seen in many cases, doing so, and we now have about 2,000 employees who they can up sticks and move elsewhere. We cannot work for Airbus’s supply companies. That makes sense ignore that reality, and it is a danger. Many years ago, for the supplier and the prime, because it is much easier Deeside was dominated by Shotton Steelworks, a maker to sort out problems if people can walk or drive across of colour products, which remains an important employer. from one company to another than it is if goods are It is taking on apprentices, and when I visited recently I brought in from a long way away or even from a was pleased to hear about some of the investments and different country. progress that are being made. The steelworks holds the record for the largest number Chris Ruane: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way of job losses at a plant on a single day, when more than yet again. He mentioned the fact that some 7,000 people 8,000 people lost their jobs under the Thatcher Government. work in the Airbus factory in his constituency. There is That devastated the whole area. I say that not to make a another factory in Filton, near Bristol, and 70,000 people point about Tories destroying jobs— are involved in the supply chain. What impact would withdrawal from the EU have on the 70,000 who work Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Why not? in the supply chain of the joint European Airbus? 481WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 482WH

Mark Tami: That would have a massive impact. If my they will be funding a highway through the site, which hon. Friend can wait a little longer—I am sure that he will help to speed up growth. I also welcome the £2.2 million can—I will address that point towards the end of my investment for flood defences, which are long overdue remarks. and are part and parcel of that new site. I mentioned the importance of a quality work force There will be other road improvements. Work on the in attracting new companies to the area. That does not A483-A55 intersection is still ongoing. I recognise that happen by accident; it happens because we train the there are major concerns about delays but, if we are people who are needed. Coleg Cambria has an excellent honest, the time will never be right for making road record of doing such work. It works with employers to changes, which will always cause problems. If someone develop training packages that meet their needs, rather has a magical solution for making those road changes than offering, and only ever having offered, an off-the-shelf without causing delays, I would love to hear it. The programme that people can take or leave; I believe that intersection is a pinch point that needs to be addressed, that has been a failing of some further education colleges. and I am pleased that is happening. Coleg Cambria is good at looking to deliver what As I said at the beginning of my speech, rail is the employers want. I have talked to companies such as major area in which a lot of work remains to be done. Raytheon, and they are pleased with the arrangement, Cross-party colleagues and I recently attended a meeting which includes work placements. The arrangement works of the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, in well. which it presented its case for the electrification of the railway line from the north-west across north Wales. Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): The hon. The board pointed out that north Wales has not received Gentleman rightly praises Coleg Cambria for its any major investment in rail since Queen Victoria was engagement with industry, but is it not the case that on the throne. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glyndwr university in Wrexham has a similar relationship Clwyd (Chris Ruane) probably remembers those days, with, for example, Airbus and that such education links but most of us in this room do not. across north Wales give the region added value to The board estimates that electrification across north prospective employers? Wales to Holyhead would create some £400 million in economic growth, help to regenerate areas that have suffered for many years and promote inward investment. Mark Tami: It does indeed. I was just about to If electrification stops at Chester, the board’s evidence mention Glyndwr university, which is important. Both shows that there would be a negative impact on the further education and higher education institutions have economy of north Wales, and even on the economy in to be adaptable and have to consider how they can England, too. If the project is to go ahead, we clearly deliver the skill base that employers need, rather than need joined-up thinking to extend electrification for the just offering courses that have not changed for years. length of the route. For that to happen, the Department We need such flexibility, which is important. for Transport, the Welsh Government, local government There are still many hurdles to get over in changing and the train operators need to work together. Although attitudes, particularly towards apprenticeships, and we electrification is on the list of infrastructure investment have to be honest about that. There is still a culture in projects and priorities for Wales published by the Wales this country that apprenticeships are done by people Office, there is no start date, and the status is “locally who do not go to university, and who perhaps do not supported,” which I presume is code for there not being have the skills to go to university. In many people’s any money and the project not being on the blocks to go minds, apprenticeships are a second-class thing to do. I ahead—certainly not in the short or medium term. do not hold that view—it is totally wrong—but we have I am sure we would all like the electrification to go to be honest and admit that people still hold it, and that ahead, but if the reality is that it will not go ahead in the we have to counter it. short or medium term, we have to consider what we can We are light years behind Germany and some other achieve on a smaller scale, and whether we can perhaps countries where apprenticeships and university are on deliver economic benefit without that massive injection; the same level, and people have the opportunity to take electrification would clearly be an extremely costly project. up an apprenticeship that can lead to a university The reinstatement of the Halton curve with a more education. Airbus, through the higher apprenticeship modest £10.4 million investment, which I welcome, will scheme, is doing that, but far more employers should be have a positive effect. My hobby-horse, and the hobby-horse going down that route. It should not be an either/or; of my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian people should be able to move seamlessly through one Lucas), is the Wrexham-Bidston line. It would be fair to to the other. We are a long way from that. It is no good say that we have been banging on about that for many just talking about the importance of apprenticeships. years. It could offer real benefits, including an improved We have to deliver apprenticeships for people across the service with more trains running. Longer term, the line gamut of qualifications so that they can move. We will could be electrified and have a dedicated station for the then change the attitude towards the importance of Deeside enterprise zone. The line could make a real engineering, but we are a long way off that at the difference, because Flintshire has one of the country’s moment. highest rates of people travelling to work by car, which probably tells us all we need to know about how well The Deeside enterprise zone established by the Labour our rail routes, and probably bus routes, work. Welsh Government offers a great opportunity to create thousands of jobs, but it also creates challenges. The Broadband coverage in the area is improving, although northern gateway project is a major opportunity, and I not where I live, but that is probably my fault as much am pleased that the Welsh Government announced that as anything else. We still have a long way to go before we 483WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 484WH can say that we have cracked it. A number of companies Albert Owen: On Europe, it is worth pointing out that and individuals have come to see me, and they have we have £200 million net going into Welsh coffers from been told that they have good coverage in their area, but Europe. The Welsh economy would suffer if we were to when they started operations they found out that the withdraw, or consider withdrawal, from the European coverage was actually very poor. It is all very well for Union. the Government to say that 90% or so of people are covered, but that is not the same as saying that 90% or Mark Tami: That is a good point. We hear a lot in the so of the country is covered. Rural areas are particularly press about what we put into Europe, but we do not badly affected. Broadband is not an optional extra for hear much about the important work done with money businesses today; it is not something they can pick and flowing out of Europe to Wales, and the real difference choose. If they do not have broadband, their business that that makes to people’s lives. That is a real threat, will suffer. The way in which we all do business has and we should not underestimate the damage that it changed, which is why we have to improve broadband could do. coverage. This is not just about rural areas, because we have not-spots in our towns, too. 9.53 am Energy infrastructure is extremely important. I do not want to go on a lot about that, because my hon. Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): It is a huge Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) will pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I have something to say on the subject, but I will mention congratulate the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside my concern about the viability of Deeside and Connah’s (Mark Tami) on securing the debate. At the start of his Quay power stations in the longer term. They are older remarks he made an important point when he identified gas stations, but they play an important role in meeting north Wales as not so much a discrete region, but part peak demand. They can operate only if they receive the of the much larger and important north-western economic right support to make them viable. region. That is extremely important, because I frequently feel that people in Whitehall and—dare I say it?—Cardiff House building is another issue, because if we are do not understand north Wales’s relationship with the encouraging companies to site in north Wales, their large cities of north-west England such as Liverpool employees have to live somewhere. We need more affordable and Manchester. housing, not just to buy, but to rent. I applaud Flintshire That is why I echo what the hon. Gentleman said in county council for starting a council house building applauding the work of the Mersey Dee Alliance, an programme, which is an important step that will help a extremely important vehicle for cross-border co-operation. lot of people. Like many colleagues, I know a lot of It should be given even more recognition and regarded families in which both adults are working but cannot as a statutory consultee by not only the Westminster get a first step on the ladder. Getting on that ladder is Government but the Government in Cardiff on all very important in encouraging people to site themselves aspects of economic development in north Wales. in the area. We are moving in the right direction, but I want to focus my brief remarks on rail transport in major concerns remain about our rail network. We are north Wales, because, as the hon. Gentleman rightly doing better than some areas, but there is room for said, that is an important element of the north Wales improvement. economy. I am optimistic. Like him, I attended the Finally—my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of event organised by the North Wales economic ambition Clwyd has been waiting for this moment—I worry that board and I believe that Members of Parliament of all all that good work could be undone if we put everything parties support working towards electrification of the at risk by exiting the European Union. That would have north Wales main line. a devastating impact on companies in our area such as The hon. Gentleman also mentioned what he called Airbus and Toyota, among many others. I do not think the Wrexham to Bidston line. He is right that hon. that they would shut up shop and go the following day, Members have debated that old chestnut in this House but I worry that we would not see further investment, for many years. The economic case for electrification of and then we would see operations starting to go back that line is probably stronger than ever, but, I think that, the other way. Companies such as Airbus are European because we are Welsh, we tend to look at that through partnerships, which are a great example of how Europe the Welsh prism: Wrexham to Bidston rather than Bidston can and should work. Our European partners—the back towards Wrexham. Germans, the French and the Spanish—would love to What has changed over the past few years has been have that wing work. Let us not kid ourselves: if we the establishment of two important enterprise zones: think that they would not push harder for that work one, as the hon. Gentleman said, is in Deeside, but the and make the case about all the difficulties of us being other is at Wirral Waters in Birkenhead. The Wirral outside the European Union, we are naive in the extreme. Waters enterprise zone is almost immediately adjacent To believe that that we can leave the EU and then to the station at Bidston, and those two zones could establish trade arrangements so that we can carry on benefit immensely from being linked by a fast, electrified exactly as before is as ludicrous. We are not Norway, line, which would put Deeside within easy commuting and even it has to abide by the same rules and regulations distance of the centre of Liverpool. to sell its goods, but it does not have a chair at the table Only a few weeks ago, Network Rail announced when those rules and regulations are being made. The proposals to create a new hub at Shotton, which provides think-tank Open Europe published a report this week an enormous opportunity for hon. Members to press that warned that, in one scenario, UK GDP could be Network Rail and Merseyrail to look again at the 2.2% lower by 2030 if Britain leaves the EU and fails to prospect of electrifying that important line. That would establish liberal trading arrangements. effectively put those two enterprise zones within a 15-minute 485WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 486WH

[Mr David Jones] the border. It is essential that people in north Wales should have proper representation in this place whenever commute, which would create enormous synergy. Perhaps necessary. we could then speak in terms of extending electrification Frankly, one of the other difficulties is that there has down as far as Wrexham, for which the hon. Member been an unfortunate tendency to equate Wales and for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) has pressed for many years. Scotland. Wales is a very different place from Scotland. However, if we take an incremental approach and initially The border of north Wales is highly populated, whereas think about improving that important stretch of line, the border between England and Scotland is not. It is we will lay the foundations for an enormous boost to essential that Members from all parties should ensure the economy not only of north-east Wales, but right that, whenever the concerns of people from Wales are across the region, from the River Conwy to Ellesmere debated in this place, their representatives have a full Port and beyond. The Minister could do well to put that voice in those debates. to Network Rail; the time is right. We need to do as much as we possibly can to integrate the north Wales 10.1 am economy even further into the Merseyside economy. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to In the next Parliament there will be considerable serve under your chairmanship today, Sir Roger. debate about so-called English votes for English laws. When one has regard to the extent to which not only I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and public services such as health in north Wales, but the Deeside (Mark Tami) for putting this important issue economic considerations we are debating today are on the agenda today. Like him, I recognise that the bound up with those across the border and tapped into north Wales economy is both strong in itself and linked the north-west economy, one sees that it is essential that very much to Merseyside, and the rest of whatever arrangements are put in place should give north-west England. We have businesses such as Airbus, proper recognition to the legitimate concerns of north and I echo the condolences that my hon. Friend has Wales Members. expressed following the tragic accident in France yesterday. We also have Toyota and the companies in the Deeside industrial belt, including the Deeside industrial zone as Chris Ruane: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe a whole. Those companies are extremely important, not that Welsh Members should be able to vote in the only for the economy of north Wales but for the economy British Parliament on health, education and transport of north-west England. Potentially as many of my issues? constituents work at Vauxhall’s Ellesmere Port factory as work at Toyota’s factory in Deeside, with both sites Mr Jones: I have already said many times and I am producing good-quality vehicles. quite happy to repeat—that is why I started by saying Large businesses and the commuting population, as that frequently I think politicians in London and Cardiff well as those engaged in tourism, depend on strong do not fully understand the north Wales element—that economic infrastructure. I think you will find, Sir Roger, whenever any such issues touch and concern the interests that there will be a great deal of consensus across the of the people of north Wales, their representatives House today on some of the key issues on which the should have the right to speak on those issues in this next Government—whoever forms that Government—will Parliament. need to focus in the next five years. Like my hon. Friend, I will concentrate on three Mark Tami: I am very pleased to hear what the right particular areas: rail, broadband, and housing. I will hon. Gentleman has to say. He makes a very strong also touch briefly on energy infrastructure. point, and one of the best examples of what he is First, there is rail. There is a compelling case to talking about is the Countess of Chester hospital. It improve the rail links from north Wales to Merseyside. was absolutely established not as an English hospital The right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) but as an English and Welsh hospital, and its catchment made a very powerful speech about the need to improve area is Deeside and Chester; it serves Deeside as much the Wrexham to Bidston line, and the need for the hub as it serves Chester. It would not be viable without at the Deeside industrial park. That is one aspect of rail Welsh patients, so to look at it as purely an English and the view on it is shared across the House. It is hospital would be wrong, and he is absolutely right that important that we consider pressing the case for those people outside our area do not understand how that improvements, because they would not only provide a dynamic works. strong commuting link but meet the objective that my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside mentioned, namely taking vehicles off the road. Currently we have Mr Jones: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is entirely right. congested roads both going into and out of north In fact, that is a point that I put to my right hon. Friend Wales, particularly at peak times. the Leader of the House when he announced the proposed It is important that we maximise the benefits to north arrangements for so-called English votes for English Wales of and the link to Crewe. I think laws. that all of us in Westminster Hall today, including my We must have regard to the fact that people in north hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd () Wales rely on English services, not only health services who is on the Labour Front Bench, but with the exception but in so many other respects. Our people work across of the Minister, met the Mersey Dee Alliance and the the border, and, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, North Wales economic ambition board to consider how people from the north-west of England work in factories, the next Parliament can maximise the benefits of HS2 such as Airbus, Toyota and so on, on the Welsh side of for north Wales. The Minister, officials and the Wales 487WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 488WH

Office, working with the Department for Transport and Rail infrastructure is important but one of the things the National Assembly for Wales, need to look at that that we know about the 21st century is that individual strategic vision for the next five years, to ensure that we businesses, wherever they operate from, depend on good, are at the table when key decisions are discussed. fast broadband services, and the attendant capacity, to Regarding the link from Crewe, at the moment the ensure that their businesses grow. Businesses based in Chancellor talks about a northern powerhouse. In my north Wales can trade with the world from north Wales view, north Wales is part of that northern powerhouse, if they have good broadband facilities. and as north Wales MPs we have to impress upon Recently, I have received representations from businesses whoever forms the next Government that they have to in the north Flintshire part of my constituency, from engage strongly with proposals to ensure that there is businesses based in Trelogan and from businesses in electrification between Crewe and Chester, that there Bagillt, which is in the mid-part of my constituency, are improvements on the line between Crewe and Chester, and they are saying quite clearly that broadband speeds and, crucially, that such improvements continue to be are not up to scratch and need to be faster, and that made right the way down to the constituency of my connections need to be improved. I know that both the hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen). National Assembly and the Government have invested That would improve access from Ireland through to in broadband, but it is still the case that only 56% of my Chester and the rest of north-west England, through to constituency has access to broadband and the average London, and across the north to Hull and the markets download speed is still only 13.1 megabits, which is not that access to that port would open up, which is extremely sufficient to meet the needs of a 21st-century economy. important. Although a number of hubs have been put in place My hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside and there have been plans for Caerwys, Flint, Holywell, touched on the issue of the Halton curve, which is a key Mold West, Mostyn, Northop and Pontybodkin, which link to Liverpool. I am pleased that the Government is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member have invested more than £10 million in that link; we for Alyn and Deeside, to link to the southern part of my have been pressing for that investment for some months. constituency, where there are live exchanges, and Halkyn Again, it is part of what we need to focus on. I share the exchange will come on-stream shortly, there are still view of both my hon. Friend and the right hon. Member issues of speed and capacity, and the Government need for Clwyd West that we are intrinsically linked with to focus on them as a matter of urgency. I hope that the north-west England in terms of our economy, and Government respond, not just providing figures about therefore improving the Halton curve link will improve broadband, but saying what else is going to be done to access not only to Merseyside markets and employment increase the capacity and speed and ensure that the but to Liverpool airport. businesses in my area have access as a matter of some We also need to consider how we can maximise the importance. links to Manchester airport. With due respect to my colleagues in the National Assembly, much play is made My hon. Friend mentioned housing, which might of Cardiff airport. However, I do not think that anybody seem to be going off at a tangent in a debate about from my constituency would ever fly from Cardiff airport, economic infrastructure, but it is crucial to the development but they will fly from Manchester airport, which is only of jobs and prosperity in our area. I join my hon. 40 miles away from where I live in north Wales, and Friend in expressing great pleasure about Flintshire from Liverpool airport, which is only 20 miles from county council’s investing a record £20 million in the where I live. Currently, the transport infrastructure—apart first council housing for many years. Over the next five from my private vehicle—is extremely poor when it years it will build 200 homes. The centre of Flint, in my comes to accessing both those crucial hubs. We need to constituency, is currently being redeveloped—200 homes build on it. Also, with all these links we need to look not will be put on that site shortly—but there is a need for only for tourism benefits but business and commuting more. To add a political note, that is why I welcome the benefits. national Labour party’s commitment to invest in social housing, if elected in May, with 200,000 homes for rent, Let me give one example of a proposal for further because the Assembly will then have the capacity to infrastructure that would be of great help in five years, ensure that Flintshire county council has additional on which Network Rail needs to focus. Now, for the homes to rent. That is an important mechanism to first time in the past 12 or 13 years, Flint station has ensure that we have a strong local work force. direct links to London, on the north Wales line, through Virgin Trains. Virgin Trains runs several trains an hour Public sector finance going into private sector housing— that stop at Flint; there is a very strong link. Currently, into social housing for rent—is putting money into the there are proposals to extend the length of Virgin economy through local private sector building firms in Trains, to ensure that we can maximise the capacity, north Wales. The firms currently building the properties linked in to HS2. Flint station will not be big enough to in Flint are not public sector firms. Private sector firms take that extra capacity and in my view we need to press are growing the economy and building houses, and they Virgin Trains and Network Rail to extend Flint station, will be using bricks, wood, plaster, mortar and equipment which can be done on platform terms, to ensure that we made in the private sector in north Wales, which will do not lose out when that extra capacity comes on-stream. help generate our economy and add valuable housing stock to make our area attractive and alleviate long There is a real agenda for rail, which I support housing lists. and which I think the Government, the DFT, the Wales Office, the National Assembly for Wales, Network Energy infrastructure is equally important. I am sure Rail and MPs, working on a cross-party basis, need to that my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd look at with the MDA and the North Wales economic (Chris Ruane) will talk about the tidal lagoon in his ambition board. constituency, which will have a great impact, potentially, 489WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 490WH

[Mr David Hanson] We have made great progress on transportation, as has been said. 1997 was a good year for Anglesey, on my constituency. I have met individuals in north because it was the date of the beginning of the dualling Wales who want to develop that tidal lagoon off the of the A55 across the Isle of Anglesey. I had one north Wales coast as part of our investment in energy. disagreement with the late Sir Wyn Roberts, an Anglesey It is also important that we encourage and develop man, about whether the previous Government had the offshore wind industry in north Wales, although completed the A55 across north Wales. It stopped in Llan- there may be some disagreement on part of this. We fairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, have a great ability to engender manufacturing and a in my constituency. It is the village with the biggest strong offshore wind energy industry. As part of the name, but it is also a village with a big heart and a economic infrastructure, we should be looking at how pioneering area of the UK, where the first Women’s we integrate the energy sector in north Wales. For Institute was established 100 years ago this year. The example, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Women’s Institute is an institution born and raised on Member for Ynys Môn, there are developments in Anglesey. I am proud of that. The serious point about nuclear; in that of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale the A55 not being dualled is that the economy of of Clwyd, tidal lagoons are being developed; and in my Anglesey, and the west of north-west Wales, was hampered constituency wind farms, both onshore and offshore, for some 10 to 15 years until that road was linked. are being developed with expertise in our area. Companies The link to Ireland is important. Members of Parliament such as Kingspan have great expertise in solar panels would not be here, and we would not have the infrastructure, and the development of that sector. That is all part of a if it was not for Irish Members of Parliament lobbying Government partnership to help build, support and for the old A5 from Dublin to London. When I talk develop the alternative energy sector as a whole. about transportation in this country, I talk about linking Whoever forms the next Government, there are real the great cities of Dublin and London via the north issues to consider in respect of rail, broadband and Wales corridor. investment in housing, and regarding developing a I want to concentrate on three big issues: transport, sustainable alternative energy structure. North Wales is energy and tourism. These three big sectors of industry doing well and has a great deal to offer, but it can and need a big, modern 21st-century infrastructure. Anglesey should do better. Whoever forms the next Government is a strategic location. I will not let anybody say we are will have the support of the area’s Members of Parliament, on the periphery because, looking at the map of the whom I hope will be returned after the election, to UK, Anglesey is the heart of the British Isles. It is an ensure that north Wales does better in the next five equal distance from Anglesey to Scotland, Wales, northern years. England and Northern Ireland. We are at the centre of it. It is, as the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris 10.13 am Ruane) said, a Cardiff-centric and London-centric view to suggest that north Wales is on the periphery. We are Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is always a pleasure at the centre. However, we have to increase the investment to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. in that area to make the north Wales powerhouse work. I want to continue talking on themes raised by hon. I want to talk about road-rail being fully integrated Members, adding a north-west Wales dimension. I am and about sea and air, which are often regarded as not only the most western Member here, but the only Cinderella modes of transport when we talk about Member from north-west Wales, and indeed the only transport, but are hugely important to the UK. Member from the centre of north Wales and north-east The A55, which is now complete, is a victim of its Wales. I bring to the debate not just north Wales matters, own success. It is very crowded at times and has pinch but will mention the important links with the Republic points, not least across the Britannia bridge from Anglesey of Ireland. to the mainland. Having been at sea, I came home when I want to create a north Wales powerhouse, along the A55 was being built across Llanfair PG. Although with members of my party with whom I have been the dual carriageway across north Wales was extended working during the past few weeks. We want north-west and expanded across Anglesey, there are only single Wales to be not just a place that people go through on lanes across the bridge. I cannot understand why this the way to Ireland, but a location where manufacturing, was not thought through by the then Welsh Office and research and development and various other activities the Government. This has been a big issue for a long take place. We want north Wales to be the place to visit time in respect of north Wales transport. We need and the place to work and live. ambition regarding a new crossing from the mainland, The creation of a north Wales powerhouse has already because, as I said, it is not just for local transport, but begun. As my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and for Irish transport. One of the biggest boosts to the Deeside (Mark Tami) said—I congratulate him on securing economy in north Wales has been the Irish economy this debate—Airbus, which is based in north Wales, is growing again, meaning that we have greater trade with one of the flagship companies, not just in north Wales the Republic of Ireland. I want to mention that later. and not just in Wales, but in the UK and Europe. We We have had some good news about roads. The Welsh must be proud of that. The Horizon project on Anglesey Government are investing in a transport hub in my at Wylfa Newydd, which began in 2009, is moving constituency—a lorry park—which will create 37 jobs forward and is a business investment in north-west immediately. With the trade with Ireland increasing, Wales equivalent to the London Olympics in terms of that will be an excellent facility for the port and for cash. We have heard about Gwynt y Môr, a successful north Wales. offshore project, and the Deeside enterprise zone. All On rail, we have to have a vision. I echo what other these projects are helping create what I consider to be a Members have said about links with Liverpool and north Wales powerhouse. Manchester as well as with London and Cardiff. 491WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 492WH

My family came from Liverpool to north Wales some time Belfast and tourist destinations so that people can link ago, and in those days people could travel directly from between the periphery areas of this country. That is the Holyhead to Liverpool without having to change trains. ambition I hope we will have in the next Parliament. There was that link with Merseyside, predominantly with I was laughed at when we talked about a link between the seafaring communities and the Irish communities. Cardiff and Anglesey. I was told that it would not work, We need to re-establish that direct link because, as my but it brings north-west Wales within 40 minutes of right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) Cardiff. Fast flights to Dublin could be made in 15 minutes. said, when our constituents go on holiday, many of That connection would mean that north-west Wales them do not go to Heathrow and Gatwick; they go to was 15 minutes from one capital and 40 minutes from John Lennon airport and Manchester airport. Those another. The airport has that potential. Rather than are important strategic airports to the whole of north having massive infrastructure projects and growing hubs Wales, and we must work together to ensure that we get in south Wales and the south of England, I encourage a that link back. future Government, which I hope will be of a different Arriva Trains and the franchise of Wales and Borders colour, to look at a different dimension so that we can are creaking. They are running over capacity. In north move people through that western corridor. Wales, too many people are travelling on too few trains In my remaining time, I want to touch on two other that are too small, and we need to address that. The subjects. The first is tourism. If food and farming are current franchise system simply is not working. We met included in tourism, it is one of the fastest-growing Arriva, and it said, “That is all we had written into the sectors of industry in the United Kingdom and the franchise.” If we will have private operators and rail world. It is the fifth largest sector in the world, so we infrastructure heavily subsidised by taxpayers’ money, need to develop it. As we are talking about infrastructure, we want to see the companies showing some initiative I say that we need rail, road, sea and air links to bring and investing in the rolling stock. I hope that an incoming people to destinations. With my local authority, I have Labour Government will look seriously at that, because been promoting Anglesey as a destination within the the franchise system is already outdated. We saw the United Kingdom. That is hugely important, but we debacle with the west coast main line and Virgin, where need to have the infrastructure. an error in the refranchising cost taxpayers millions of pounds. We need to look closely at that. My right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn and my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside mentioned I move on to transport on the sea, because it is broadband, but we also need to improve mobile phone important. We are an island nation, and we trade with coverage, because there is very little in some areas. In the rest of the European Union and the rest of the the past three years, we have been creating the big three world. The port of Dublin is one of the fastest growing in telecommunications. We must be worried about them in Europe. I had the honour of launching a new vessel, investing solely in our large towns and cities and forgetting the Superfast X, which will run between the ports of the rural areas, which do not have the strong economic Holyhead and Dublin. It is owned by Stena. The port case. I turn that argument on its head: my constituents manager of Dublin and the family of Stena indicated to and every Member of Parliament pay the same costs for me that they want to see the link between Holyhead and mobile phones as those in cities and towns across the Dublin as the new Dover-Calais. It has that potential to United Kingdom. We need to have universal services transport goods and people across the European Union for the 21st century so that tourists, people working in through the north Wales corridor in both directions. rural areas and future investors have the telecommunications As a former seafarer, I pay tribute to the merchant in rural areas that they deserve. navy and the merchant fleet that we have. They are a The second issue is energy. In my constituency, major employer for the future. The Superfast X is we have a massive proposal on nuclear power with registered in Cardiff and flies not just the red ensign, Wylfa Newydd. That will create not only 6,000 to but the red dragon. Stena has made a huge commitment 8,000 construction jobs, but 1,000 jobs for life in energy to invest in Wales and the port of Holyhead. We should production. The supply chain and skills are absolutely be proud of the seafaring traditions of this country. I essential for the future. In my constituency, Coleg Menai pay tribute to the coastguard and the Royal National is training people for the construction phase and apprentices Lifeboat Institution, of which I am vice president. We for high-quality engineering jobs in the energy sector. are a mercantile nation, and we should be investing With the shadow Secretary of State, my right hon. more in cargo and passengers. Friend the Member for Don Valley (), I Tourism is a massive boost. A large number of people recently visited Coleg Menai and saw young people come and trade from Ireland as part of the European with the aspiration of working in the area. Union. My hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside is right: it would be harebrained to withdraw Mr David Jones: The hon. Gentleman politically from the European Union when we have such established cohabits with a Plaid Cymru Assembly Member. Can links with European nations on both sides, whether he tell us what the current policy of Plaid Cymru is on they are from Dover to France and the continent of the development of Wylfa Newydd? Europe or to the Republic of Ireland. Air links are important. We have an airport on Anglesey Albert Owen: I will stay away from the policies of that is linked to the capital city of Wales, Cardiff, but we other parties, because they will be developing their must have more ambition than that. We need the airport manifestos, but since no Plaid Cymru Member is here, I to be expanded. Looking not from the south-east of know that the leader of that party is on principle England or even from south Wales, but in a different opposed to nuclear power. In the new alliance of the direction, at the western corridor of the United Kingdom, Green party, the Scottish National party and Plaid we should have flights from Cardiff or Cornwall up to Cymru, all three leaders are opposed to nuclear power, 493WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 494WH

[Albert Owen] money goes to a local firm with local contracts, employing local people, that money stays in the local community; which puts future nuclear power in this country at huge if it is given to a multinational company, it will disappear, risk. I will leave it at that for the moment. I am sure I or there will be no economic multiplier. will have the opportunity to develop that argument over I am proud of Labour’s public investment and the next five weeks. procurement record in Wales. I will give some examples I do not only want to talk about nuclear power. A from over the years. Labour invested in Rhyl college. In biomass eco park has been announced for my constituency. the past, people who lived in Rhyl had to travel 25 miles It will create 500 jobs and is starting next month. That is to and from Deeside college every day, or 20 miles to great for the area. It will bring food production and and from Llandrillo college—40 miles a day, or 200 miles energy production together on one site. We need to a week. Labour founded the college in Rhyl, and then move forward with the large projects. I make no apology Denbigh college was founded, so local people could for banging the drum for north-west Wales. It is an upgrade their skills locally. important area for the United Kingdom and links us with the Republic of Ireland. I am pro-Wales, pro-Anglesey, That is in the past, but the Welsh Labour Government pro-British and pro-European. My party will be putting are currently investing £35 million in the refurbishment, that forward at the general election, and I hope we will redevelopment and rebuilding of schools in Denbighshire. return a Labour Government to develop the projects. Denbighshire county council is also investing £35 million, so that is £70 million overall. The £35 million that Denbighshire is investing is the result of excellent funding 10.28 am over the past 10 or 15 years. In my patch, local Conservatives Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): It is a pleasure to have criticised that investment in their own local authority. serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate In 1997, investment in Denbighshire local authority my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside was £63 million; today it is £163 million. They have (Mark Tami) on securing this important debate. criticised Labour for the investment that is allowing us to build schools. My proudest moment as an MP came in 1999, when I secured access to European objective 1 funding for I recently visited Rhyl high school, which is under Denbighshire and Conwy. The map was redrawn after I construction and set to cost £23 million. The builders, lobbied my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath Willmott Dixon, told me that of that £23 million, 60% (Mr Hain), who was a junior Minister in the Wales will be spent within a 30-mile radius of Rhyl. That will Office at the time. Since then, more than £200 million localise procurement and maximise jobs, skills and has been invested in economic infrastructure in my investment in our local economy. I congratulate Huw county alone. I believe that the same amount has been Lewis, the Education Minister in Wales, for going ahead invested in the county of Conwy, which is represented with that excellent £70 million investment in our local by the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). economy. That important injection of investment has helped Energy has been mentioned, and it is key in north the economies of Denbighshire, Conwy and the whole Wales. The £20 billion investment in Wylfa is fantastic of north Wales. It has helped to fund projects such as news—it will mean 8,000 jobs. The tidal lagoon going the £10 million redevelopment of Rhyl harbour; the from Penrhyn bay to Prestatyn will be 28 km long and £4 million Drift Park development on Rhyl promenade; 11 times bigger than the Swansea bay lagoon. It is set buildings in Prestatyn, such as the one colloquially for £5 billion of investment, of which 56% will be spent known as Tango towers; and, 10 years ago, the best in Wales. European regional development fund project in the whole European Union, the Opto-electronics Technology Mr David Jones: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman and Incubation Centre, or OpTIC. All that investment on the attractiveness of the tidal lagoon project. It is, of occurred because we are partners with Europe. It will course, a private sector proposal, as he will know. disappear if we pull out. We have another seven years of European funding to go; possibly another £100 million to £150 million could Chris Ruane: Absolutely. It is a private sector proposal, be pumped into my county and constituency, if we stay and that is good. I am not saying that private sector in the EU. We will not get that funding if we pull out. investment is bad; I am saying that to castigate the Since 2009, the economy of north Wales has benefited public sector, day in, day out, decade in, decade out, is from £1.2 billion of European funding. That is a massive wrong. The public sector has a vital part to play in amount of money to inject into the economic infrastructure providing essential services and priming our economy. of north Wales. If we leave the EU, not only will we lose If it goes ahead, the tidal lagoon project will bring that funding, but companies such as Toyota have said £5 billion of investment, which will help to transform that they will pull out. Airbus will not get its future the economy of north Wales, especially alongside the investment. Seventy thousand jobs in the UK depend £20 billion investment in Wylfa. on Airbus—do we really want to lose them? About 10 years ago, I switched on 30 turbines at In north Wales, there is £800 million-worth of public North Hoyle off the coast of Rhyl. When he was at the procurement, what with the police, the fire service, the Conservative party conference in Llandudno as Leader health authority and local authorities across the region. of the Opposition, the Prime Minister referred to those Public investment from the public sector, which Labour turbines as “giant bird blenders”; he then went back to believes in, is helping to prime the north Wales economy. Notting Hill and stuck a bird blender on his house. If public procurement is handled properly, the economic That shows the Conservative party’s lack of belief in multiplier can be seven times what is put in. If public renewable energy. Another indicator of that, from a 495WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 496WH north Wales perspective, was the changing of the feed-in aircraft industry, I add my words of condolence to tariff in 2010 so that the biggest solar panel factory in those of my right hon. and hon. Friends on this sad day western Europe, in Wrexham, had to close down. after the air crash in France. On transport, I agree entirely with my hon. Friend I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) that we have Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) on securing his second to see transport connections in north Wales not from a debate on the economic infrastructure of north Wales. I north Wales perspective but from a European perspective, also congratulate all right hon. and hon. Friends on linking Dublin, Holyhead, Manchester, Hull, the Baltic their contributions to the debate—a measure of their states, Crewe, London and the rest of Europe. We must continued determination, as it is of all north Wales invest in a strategic trans-European network. We cannot Members, to see north Wales prosper. We have heard be left as a branch line when billions of pounds are excellent contributions from everyone. being pumped into HS2, HS3, HS4 and whatever. We My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert need to be a main artery linking Dublin to the rest of Owen) said it was a shame that he is the only representative Europe via north Wales and Holyhead. of north-west Wales present; no other parties from the That is so important because £53 billion in trade north-west are represented in the Chamber. It is a flows each year back and forth between Ireland and the shame that Plaid Cymru Members are not here—perhaps UK. The principal port is Holyhead, and we want to they have something else on of rather more importance. keep it that way. More trade is conducted between That, however, is one of the lone party political Britain and Ireland than between Britain and Russia points that I want to make today, because the debate and Britain and China put together. That is how important has not been party political; it has been a constructive it is. That is how important the transport links are. We debate with an enormous amount of consensus— must also have electrification, and connections to Manchester and Liverpool airports are really valued—we need a connection right into those airports. Chris Ruane: I did try! In this very Chamber about 18 months ago, I mentioned Owen Smith: For all my hon. Friend’s attempts, we a hovercraft connection between Liverpool and Rhyl. were largely consensual. We had one more than 50 years ago—the first hovercraft passenger connection in the whole world—and we want There was a huge amount of agreement in the to see the project taken up again. We have had some Chamber about the challenges that face north Wales support from a Conservative Transport Minister, and on the economy and its infrastructural links and what we are looking to the Welsh Government to support we need to do about energy, transport, rail, road, the project. A hovercraft connection could bring schools building, housing and so on. My hon. Friend 200,000 visitors to north Wales each year. the Member for Alyn and Deeside summed things up when he talked about north Wales as an industrial The right hon. Member for Clwyd West mentioned powerhouse. We have terrific, world-beating companies private sector investment. I welcome the excellent work in all the constituencies represented in the Chamber done by councillors and officers in Denbighshire to today. We need to ensure that those companies are attract Neptune Developments from Liverpool to Rhyl nurtured and grow, and that the certainty required in to develop £30 million or £40 million-worth of tourism terms of investment is maintained by whoever wins the infrastructure. The news was reported in the Daily Post election in May. Any uncertainties such as those about some six or seven weeks ago, and it is a fantastic the future involvement of the UK in Europe need to be development. We must ensure that the hovercraft lands eradicated. exactly where the development is going to take place. I have discussed hard infrastructure, but there is also Another point made with great force and vigour by soft infrastructure: people, and how we treat them. my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside was Under Labour, the future jobs fund put 420 young the need for investment in education and apprenticeships people back to work in my constituency. The first in north Wales and throughout the UK. The connections malicious and malign act of this Conservative Government that have already been made between companies such in June 2010 was to end the future jobs fund. The Welsh as Toyota and Airbus and the local colleges, Coleg Government took up the baton and developed Jobs Cambria and Glyndwr university, are exemplars for the Growth Wales, which has an 80% success rate at getting whole of the UK. We need to ensure that we maintain young people back to work or into training. That is those connections. excellent work. The former Secretary of State for Wales, the right In 2007, I established the Rhyl City Strategy, which hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), made an has helped to put thousands of people back to work or extremely positive contribution on two key points, first, into training. We need decent housing for local workers. on the vital cross-border links. I agree that too often in The Welsh Government are pumping £28 billion into all parties our public dialogue on Wales concentrates on west Rhyl to create housing for people to buy. This is the border. We need to get past that. The next phases of fantastic investment from the Welsh Labour Government, devolution must be about greater partnership and but it will all be put under threat if the Tories get in on integration, acknowledging the fact that companies do 7May. not recognise the border in the way in which public policy often does. The right hon. Gentleman’s points about connecting 10.39 am the two enterprise zones through the Wrexham to Bidston Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): It is a great pleasure line, making it a 15-minute journey, and about the to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Sir benefits that can be derived from thinking more holistically Roger. Also, given the north Wales connections with the about the whole of Deeside and north-west England as 497WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 498WH

[Owen Smith] up. He was also the only one to mention mobile phone coverage, which is enormously important to modern an economic powerhouse and zone were extremely well business. Coverage remains far too patchy in Wales, and made, as was his contribution about English votes for north Wales is one of the areas in which we must do English laws. I agree with him wholeheartedly that we more. must carefully guard against short-term political expediency My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd for some parties getting in the way of the vital need for (Chris Ruane) made an excellent contribution. In particular our constituents, in particular in north Wales, to have a I highlight his description of the benefits to Wales of say on services and decisions that affect them as much our continued membership of the European Union. He as they affect people in England. mentioned Rhyl harbour, Rhyl promenade and the Those points were well made by the right hon. Gentleman OpTIC research and incubation unit, which are only and were reflected in the contribution of my right hon. three examples of the £1.2 billion of investment in Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). He, too, Wales as a result of our membership of the EU. He highlighted the interconnection of our north Wales emphasised the risk to the great companies in north economy with that of the north-west. For example, on Wales—I have mentioned some, such as Toyota and HS2, my right hon. Friend made it clear that in order to Airbus. As my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and derive the full benefits for north Wales we need the Deeside said, they would not leave overnight were we to Crewe interchange to be delivered and real investment leave the EU, but their continued investment in north in and understanding of the benefits. Crucially, he Wales and in Britain would inevitably be in jeopardy. made a point about the recent rhetoric from the Chancellor The risks to our constituents in north Wales in respect about the northern powerhouse—welcome rhetoric and of their security and to the long-term prospects for the welcome emphasis on the north of England from a economic health of north Wales should be clear to all Tory Chancellor. of us. However, recent comments by Ministers in the Wales My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd also Office about creating a north Wales powerhouse are highlighted the excellent work of the Welsh Government perhaps a bit muddleheaded. We need to think more in recent years in the teeth of big cuts to their budget— along the lines of what my right hon. Friend the Member £1.5 billion less and 30% of the capital budget removed. for Delyn said, that north Wales is in many respects That is part of the picture under the UK Government: connected inextricably to the north-west and the north according to the National Audit Office, there has been a of England. When we talk about the northern powerhouse, £15 billion reduction in infrastructure investment. However, as I suggest whoever succeeds in May must continue to despite such problems, as my hon. Friend said, £70 million do, we should be thinking about north Wales as an has been invested in schools in Denbighshire. He could integral part of it; we should not talk simply about also have mentioned the £64 million invested by the something within Wales, of north Wales versus the Welsh Government and local government in schools in south. Flintshire or the £30 million invested in schools on My right hon. Friend also made some excellent practical Ynys Môn by the Welsh Government. Such schools are suggestions about the need for better transport links also a vital piece of economic infrastructure investment between his constituency and north Wales generally for our future—perhaps more vital than some of the and the airports that serve north Wales—not Cardiff road and rail projects that we have discussed. The Wales airport, but Liverpool and Manchester. Such schools projects are a testament to the continued dedication points of connection are vital. Other practical suggestions of the Welsh Labour Government to investing in the included extending Flint train station in order to allow future of our children in Wales, in contrast to—a final the new trains to continue stopping there. party political point—how the Building Schools for the My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn made a Future programme was cancelled in England. characteristically ebullient and passionate defence of I shall bring my remarks to a conclusion with a brief his island, describing it as being at the heart of the whole reminder that we have an election just 40-odd days away of the British isles. I would not dare contradict him. He now; in case Members had not noticed, this Parliament also challenged the Hansard reporters with his excellent is coming to an end. There is a vast amount of agreement pronunciation of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrn- that north Wales requires further investment. Whoever drobwllllantysiliogogogoch—they can do it twice now, wins on 7 May, Welsh Members across the House if they would, please. He, too, spoke about the three should put their shoulders to the wheel. I am confident key challenges: energy, transport—rail and road—and that if, as I hope and believe, we have a Labour Government, tourism. The Horizon project on Anglesey is supported we will see proper partnership once more between Wales throughout the House and it will be an enormous and Westminster—in contrast to the war on Wales over benefit to Wales, with 6,000 to 8,000 jobs in construction, the past few years under this Tory Government—and a as he said, and a further 1,000 jobs to maintain it. proper contribution to delivering economic success and Cross-party consensus in support of nuclear energy in prosperity for the people of north Wales. Britain is vital, to the benefit of not only north Wales, but the whole of the UK and our energy security in insecure times. 10.50 am My hon. Friend made two unique points in his The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales contribution, one about our ports, and Holyhead to (Alun Cairns): It is a pleasure to serve under your Dublin becoming as important a connection as Dover chairmanship, Sir Roger. I congratulate the hon. Member to Calais. That is a vision to which we should all for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) on securing this subscribe. Cross-party consensus on devolving power debate. I echo the sympathies expressed by him and over ports to the Welsh Assembly Government is important. others towards those involved in the tragic accident in I anticipate and hope that his suggestion will be picked Europe yesterday. 499WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure25 MARCH 2015 North Wales Economic Infrastructure 500WH

This has been an excellent debate, which has having the longest place name in Britain but for the demonstrated cross-party ambition, hope and optimism founding of the Women’s Institute, an important reason for north Wales and its people, public services and to celebrate it. I will also return to mobile communication. economic prosperity. By and large, as the shadow Minister The common theme, on which I will focus, has been mentioned, it has not been party political; I am pleased our relationship with Europe. Members have presented about that, because the issue is how to secure the right doubts and questions about the future of many companies outcomes for north Wales. and organisations, and so the continuing prosperity of The story of north Wales over the past five years has north Wales, because of the commitment to a referendum been quite remarkable. We all know that the UK has the on the UK’s future membership of the European Union. fastest growing economy in the G7, and Wales is the I simply do not accept the Opposition’s arguments on fastest growing part of the United Kingdom. Since that issue. The evidence is strong and pretty overwhelming. 2010—I hope that everyone will recognise this—gross In February, the British Chambers of Commerce said: value added growth for the UK has been 6.8%. In “A new settlement for is essential to achieving Wales, the figure is 8.4%, but it has been remarkably our economic ambitions—helping our businesses succeed here at strong in north Wales, at 13.3%. That is a fantastic home, and across the world.” demonstration of the efforts of everyone in north Wales— Inward investment to the UK is quite remarkable. the individuals, the private sector, the public sector and According to the World Investment Report published the entrepreneurs who are delivering growth have all by the United Nations Conference on Trade and achieved that quite remarkable figure of 13.3%. Development, the UK is the No. 1 country for foreign direct investment stock in Europe and is second only to Chris Ruane: Is the Minister including the Welsh the United States in the world. Government in his list of people to congratulate? Albert Owen: I am sure it is not intentional, but the Alun Cairns: Of course—I said the public sector. Minister has misunderstood our case. The case is for Everyone has played a part in delivering that 13.3% staying in the European Union. Businesses are telling growth in north Wales. Of course, it needed a stable me that they invested here—Hitachi is one example; its financial settlement and stable economic platform from headquarters are here in the UK—because we are part which to build it. North Wales has prospered remarkably of the European Union. There is a net benefit for us from those conditions. from being in the EU. We want that to continue and are The debate has focused on a range of issues, but proud to beat the drum for it. without question there is absolute agreement among all Members on the interdependence of north Wales and Alun Cairns: That is a respectable point, but the the north of England in general and the north-west in argument was being made that businesses were not particular. That is key to the area’s future prosperity. investing because of the EU question. The hon. Gentleman The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside picked up on will be able to make his point in the campaign when we that idea at the outset and focused on the Mersey Dee have the referendum in 2017, and then people will have Alliance. I pay tribute to that organisation; I have met the choice. its representatives in my role as Minister and have been hugely impressed with its case. I also pay tribute to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign local authorities in north Wales, whichever party runs and Commonwealth Affairs (James Duddridge): Let the them; their relationship with the Wales Office is probably people decide! stronger than that of the local authorities in south Wales because of their co-ordinated activity and Alun Cairns: Absolutely, let the people decide. Industries determination to forge a relationship with Whitehall. and businesses invest for the long term and would not Coleg Cambria has been mentioned, and my right be investing now if, as the Opposition say, the position hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) of the UK Government was undermining their future mentioned Glyndwr university. Those are both excellent plans. That clearly is not the case. Britain is getting 50% examples of using the strength of the private sector in more inward investment than either France or Germany, north-east Wales to deliver skills. the next two biggest recipients of foreign direct investment. The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) specifically mentioned Airbus, but Tom Enders has Albert Owen: And Coleg Menai! said: “Regardless of which decision the UK will make, we are Alun Cairns: Yes, Coleg Menai as well, although the strongly committed to our operations in the UK, which are key to particular focus was on Coleg Cambria and on Glyndwr the long-term future of our group.” university. The university has been through some difficult The evidence is quite clear, from statements from the times over the past year or so. I pay tribute to Mike chief executive of Airbus to the record amount of Scott for his role during that period. He has moved on inward investment coming to north Wales. Putting doubt now, but I recognise his efforts. about the UK’s role in Europe in the minds of potential Several hon. Members mentioned rail, an issue investors does not support the economic growth of the to which I will return, along with broadband, area. housing, on which the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) reflected, and energy. The hon. Member for Mark Tami: Does the Minister not accept that many Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) mentioned the importance of companies, big and small, will not speak publicly about tourism, referring to Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrn- or get involved in politics—probably rightly—but will drobwllllantysiliogogogoch, a place famous not only for have concerns that they raise in private? My hon. Friend 501WH North Wales Economic Infrastructure 25 MARCH 2015 502WH

[Mark Tami] Democratic Republic of the Congo (Human Rights) the Member for Ynys Môn has mentioned some of those concerns this morning. It is incredibly naive to dismiss this issue as if it is not a fear or a threat when it 11 am is. It is a serious problem that we have to address. (Islington North) (Lab): I am pleased that we are having this half-hour debate on the situation Alun Cairns: The hon. Gentleman makes an important facing the Democratic Republic of the Congo. It is an point, but even if I accepted it, quite obviously businesses interest of mine as the vice-chair of the all-party group would not be spending and investing sums of money if on human rights and as a member of the all-party they had the doubts that the hon. Member for Ynys group on the African great lakes region, to which I pay Môn has shared. tribute for the work it has done over many years to I am sorry that the time has gone in which I could increase many Members’ interest in the DRC. In particular, have focused on rail investment. Important points have I pay tribute to our excellent worker, Carole Velasquez, been made about the Halton curve, the Wrexham to who does a great deal to support the group and to Bidston line and the Deeside and Wirral Waters relationship, ensure that we are effective in raising issues in the which was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member House. for Clwyd West. Those are really important issues. We I also have a constituency interest, because a considerable must focus on the economic value released by railway number of people from all parts of the DRC have made investments rather than purely on passenger numbers their home in my constituency. They make a great or environmental benefits. Economic benefits are important, contribution to the local community and the local economy. and I was delighted that my hon. Friend the Member They have family connections to the DRC, and they for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) focused have real-life experience of not only its joys and cultural on releasing economic potential in the report to the wonders, but the horrors of war and conflict, which Department for Transport by the North of England have so disfigured the country for so long. Electrification Task Force. Sadly, the horrors of the Congo are not new. From the time of slavery and occupation, when the Congo was the personal fiefdom of King Leopold of the Belgians, the abuse of human rights and the environment, and the exploitation of the place, have been second to none in the litany of one human’s abuse of another. The European’s sheer racism towards the Congo throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, and the slavery that went with it, are legendary. If anyone has any doubts about that, I urge them to read the wonderful work by American writer Adam Hochschild on the Congo. However, we should also recognise the wonderful work done by many people. E.D. Morel exposed the slave trade in the Congo while working as a shipping clerk in Liverpool. The British consul in the area, Roger Casement, was later executed for his part in the Easter rising, but he nevertheless did a great deal to expose what was going on in the Congo. When independence came in 1961, and Patrice Lumumba became the first Prime Minister, the break-up of the Congo was threatened and military coups took place. Patrice Lumumba was assassinated shortly after taking office, and there has been political instability ever since, with coups and military Governments. However, a great deal of wealth has also been made out of the Congo by international mining companies and timber companies and by some of the world’s biggest agribusinesses. The country has therefore enriched the rest of the world, providing uranium, gold, diamonds and many other minerals; indeed, every one of us who has a mobile phone will, at some point, probably have had one with coltan in it from the DRC. This is a place where the world has made wealth, but that wealth has not, unfortunately, been extended to the people of the DRC. It is important to put these things in a slightly historical context. I want now to raise four related issues: the conflict in the east of the country; political violence and instability; governance; and what the international community, the UN and particularly the UK can do to improve the situation. 503WH Democratic Republic of the Congo 25 MARCH 2015 Democratic Republic of the Congo 504WH (Human Rights) (Human Rights) To give an example of how awful the situation is, let request me quote Amnesty International’s 2014 annual report “that the Secretary General’s…reporting on the mission includes on the DRC: key indicators against which the impact of protection efforts can “The security situation in eastern Democratic Republic of the be evaluated”; Congo…remained dire and an upsurge in violence by armed ensure groups claimed the lives of thousands of civilians and forced more than a million people to leave their homes. Human rights “that any military operation is accompanied by concrete actions abuses, including killings and mass rapes, were committed by addressing security sector reform…and demobilization, disarmament both government security forces and armed groups. Violence and reintegration”; against women and girls was prevalent throughout the country. strengthen Plans to amend the Constitution to allow President Kabila to stay in office beyond 2016 prompted protests. Human rights defenders, “mechanisms for holding the DRC Government to account for journalists and members of the political opposition were threatened, human rights abuses committed by their personnel”, harassed and arbitrarily arrested by armed groups and by government committing security forces…More than 170,000 DRC nationals were expelled “additional resources to this end”; from the Republic of Congo”— Congo-Brazzaville, as it was formerly called— and stress “to the DRC between 4 April and early September. Among them “that consolidation of state authority in eastern DRC must were refugees and asylum-seekers. Some of the expelled were deliver effective protection”. allegedly arrested and detained incommunicado in Kinshasa. Those are all sensible, reasonable proposals, and the Little assistance was provided by the DRC government, and as Minister is well aware of the situation. of September, more than 100 families were living on the streets of Kinshasa without tents, health care, food or any assistance.” Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. The situation and the way people are having to survive Gentleman for outlining the issues so clearly. It is said are terrible by any stretch of the imagination. that 4 million people died in the civil war, of whom 20% The violence is awful, and we have to look at what the were targeted for their Christian beliefs. The hon. Gentleman international community is doing. MONUSCO—the has outlined the situation as it affects everyone, but United Nations Organisation Stabilisation Mission in does he agree that the DRC Government and the UN the Democratic Republic of the Congo—is one of the should take every action necessary to protect the Christians UN’s biggest, most expensive missions, and its performance, in the country, and their religious freedom, and is he activity and governance are extremely controversial. I aware of what discussions our Government have had on have visited the DRC twice, I have spent time with their behalf? MONUSCO officials and officers and I have heard what people think of MONUSCO. At its best, it can be Jeremy Corbyn: Absolutely. Religious freedom is, to very helpful and effective. When I was in Goma there me, a basis of normal, decent civilian life, which I think was a plane crash, and the MONUSCO officials from is what my hon. Friend, if I may call him that, was India and Pakistan were extremely helpful, effective and saying. That must be correct. On one of my visits to the good at assisting the victims. At other levels, however, DRC I stayed in a Catholic mission, and was impressed the complaints about harassment and abuse by UN with what the people there were doing, and with its soldiers and about the lack of control over them are ecumenical nature. They extended their hand to other very damaging to the UN’s image and to ordinary faiths and groups. There is a huge variety of religious people’s confidence in the UN. persuasions in the DRC, including evangelical Christians As time has gone on, MONUSCO’s mandate has as well as the perhaps more traditional Catholic Church changed. The mission has become much more assertive and very big Churches such as the Simon Kimbangu militarily, and many people in the Congo find it a bit foundation. It is an interesting place, and the hon. hard to distinguish between the UN and anybody Gentleman has made an important and valid point. else taking on rebel and guerrilla forces such as the March 23 movement. I hope the Minister will be able I had a useful meeting and discussion last week with to give us some indication of the direction in which a representative of the International Committee of the MONUSCO is moving. I do not underestimate the Red Cross, Markus Geisser. He helpfully sent some security difficulties and problems, but there must be an information about what it is doing. The ICRC first went understanding that the UN’s role is not to fight wars on to the Congo in 1960 and had a permanent mission behalf of other people but to bring about peace, security from 1978 onwards. It has a great deal of experience and above all development, so that people can live and is well respected. Because it is the ICRC it manages reasonable and decent lives. effectively to reach all parts. Its budget is 63 million Swiss francs, of which 13 million Swiss francs are spent The Catholic Fund for Overseas Development is very on protection, 41 million Swiss francs on assistance, active in the Congo and very knowledgeable about it. In 5 million Swiss francs on prevention and 2 million Swiss a research paper, it recommends that the new MONUSCO francs on co-operation with civil society. It has a mandate should include considerable local staff and has issued an emergency “the need to prioritize civilian approaches to protection of civilians” appeal for 2015 to help fund its activities in the DRC. I and hope that the British Government will respond positively. “improved communication between the civilian and military sections I want to draw attention to the question of violence of the mission”; against the individual. I have talked about the number emphasise of people killed and forced into exile, and the horrors “the need for improved contingency planning which focuses on that go with that. There is a disproportionate impact on the prevention of civilian harm in both the immediate and the women and girls, and to quote again from the Amnesty longer term”; International report: 505WH Democratic Republic of the Congo 25 MARCH 2015 Democratic Republic of the Congo 506WH (Human Rights) (Human Rights) [Jeremy Corbyn] is not supposed to be imported because of that. I have deep suspicions that it gets in through Rwanda and “Rape and other forms of sexual violence against women and possibly Uganda. I have deep suspicions about the girls remained endemic, not only in areas of conflict, but also in export of many minerals from conflict zones, particularly parts of the country not affected by armed hostilities. Acts of in the DRC. The Congo is theoretically signed up to the sexual violence were committed by armed groups, by members extractive industries transparency initiative. It should of the security forces and by unarmed civilians. The perpetrators of rape and other sexual violence enjoyed virtually total impunity. be held to account on that because mining companies based in Switzerland and London make a great deal of Mass rapes, in which dozens of women and girls were sexually assaulted with extreme brutality, were committed by armed groups money out of the resources of the Congo, which should and by members of the security forces during attacks on villages go to its people. Oxfam, the ICRC and many others in remote areas, particularly in North Kivu and Katanga. Such have made enormous contributions to the effort to attacks often also involved other forms of torture, killings and bring about some sort of peace and justice. CAFOD looting.” has made some valuable contributions as to the way What can the UK and the Department for International MONUSCO should develop in future. It is up to us to Development do? The DFID programme is welcome; it take political action. is £162 million for 2013-14, and I hope it will rise in the Finally, I ask the Minister to give what support he future. Our programme includes support for such things can in the case of the imprisonment of one Member of as the political framework at a national level; key reform Parliament—not just because he is a Member of Parliament processes; work on tangible peace dividends and benefits but because he represents something about democracy to communities, particularly in the east; and progress in and freedom in the country. The MP is the hon. Vano addressing grievances, perceptions and community tensions. Kiboko, who has now been in prison for nearly 100 days. Much of that is valuable and it is important to pursue His crime was apparently to raise criticisms of President it. Without the development of civil society little can be Kabila, which many journalists and others have done. If achieved. we want a free and democratic Congo to develop, it is I was once on a visit with a delegation in Goma; we not up to us to occupy and invade; it is up to us to had travelled for a long time from Rwanda. When we recognise the appalling loss of life, the horror of many arrived we visited a women’s centre. It was humbling, to individuals’ lives, and the contribution that the rest of say the least, to be asked to address—in the dark, the world could make if instead of taking the profits of because we arrived after nightfall, but they wanted to the Congo it tried to ensure that they were invested in see us anyway—a meeting of 300 to 400 women, every the people of the DRC. one of whom had been a victim of rape, or multiple 11.19 am rape, and violence. They were doing their best to rebuild their lives. They were trying to get to a place of security The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and were at least in the centre in Goma. I also visited and Commonwealth Affairs (James Duddridge): This is refugee camps and spoke to a lot of women about what my first time serving under your chairmanship as a had happened to them there. The violence that had Minister, Sir Roger, and it is a pleasure to do so, just as happened to them was indeed rape as a weapon of war. it was when I was a Back Bencher. The former Foreign Secretary, now the Leader of the I thank the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy House, took the issue up at an international summit, Corbyn) for securing the debate and setting out some of and I was pleased that he did and that far more publicity the challenges that the Democratic Republic of the has been given to the fact that rape is used as a weapon Congo faces. He clearly has a deep-rooted understanding of war. I support any funding that we can give to of that country through his constituents, his visits and women’s organisations and centres in Goma and other his ongoing, passionate work on its geography and parts of Congo—particularly if that is used to support human rights. He rightly emphasised the historical conflicts women to go back to villages and develop economic and the country’s great riches and opportunities, which life, recognising that women are crucial to the peace have not been fairly used, and have certainly not been process. They are, essentially, the builders of communities, used universally for the benefit of all citizens of the and they have a special place in Africa because of their DRC. I commend him for his work on the all-party huge contribution to agriculture. group on the African great lakes region, which, as he mentioned, does a great job in working with Members Education is the key—and that includes the education of Parliament in the Commons and the Lords to ensure of boys. In Kinshasa I visited what euphemistically that the issues it highlights are at the forefront of what passed for children’s homes but were really houses where we do. boys slept at night; they went off in the day to do By virtue of its size, population, geography and whatever they wanted, because they had nothing else to economic potential, the DRC is important not only as do. They had little education or support and hardly any an individual country; it is important to the entire great role models. If we do not give the next generation of lakes region and to Africa overall. If it succeeds, it will boys, and the one after that, education and opportunity, have a positive impact on the region. Conversely, if it the horrors of the abuse of women, and the arrogance fails, its tragic problems will infect the surrounding of male behaviour in the Congo, will simply continue areas. Today’s debate covers a number of issues, which I and get worse. Investment in education is key. will address, including the political violence in eastern As I said when I began, Britain has made a big DRC, governance and what the UK and the international contribution through DFID. We have sent support and community can do. I will also try to address the issue of election observers, and I hope that we will send observers educating young boys and men on the issue of rape, to the forthcoming elections. However, I hope that we which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, and the issue of will take action in this country as well. Coltan does not the Member of Parliament who has been imprisoned come from nowhere. Okay, it is a conflict mineral and it for an unacceptable time. 507WH Democratic Republic of the Congo 25 MARCH 2015 Democratic Republic of the Congo 508WH (Human Rights) (Human Rights) The hon. Gentleman spoke about the United Nations and the open working group on the sustainable development Organisation Stabilisation Mission in the Democratic goals, which will lead to a successor to the millennium Republic of the Congo— MONUSCO—which is the development goals. UN’s largest and most expensive mission, and one of its On the issue of governance, the hon. Member for longest-standing missions. We hold UN soldiers to the Strangford (Jim Shannon) rightly highlighted the issue same high standards as British soldiers—standards that of Christian groups. Our work on human rights includes are applied by international law. Unfortunately, soldiers the protection of everyone’s right to hold their beliefs. sometimes do not meet those high standards, so the We strongly condemn any violence or attacks on Christian British Government should be firm in insisting that groups in the DRC. As and when evidence of those they are met. There are education, training and, ultimately, attacks is brought forward, I will be happy to raise that courts of law to enforce them. in the strongest possible terms, as the hon. Gentleman It is particularly important that the DRC’s neighbours would want me to. play a constructive role in the DRC. We continue to Our human rights objectives in the DRC focus on urge the region to work towards a full implementation preventing sexual and gender-based violence and protecting of the peace, security and co-operation framework that children caught up in violence. The global summit to was established in 2011. It has been useful in enabling end sexual violence, held in London in June, showcased us to see the DRC through the prism of the region, the steps made in the DRC to date. I welcome the rather than simply through the bilateral relationships comments about my right hon. Friend the Member for with countries such as Rwanda, which the hon. Gentleman Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) and his leadership on mentioned. that issue. He has led on that issue not only in the UK Central to security in eastern DRC—and, indeed, the but internationally. When I was at the UN General whole region—is the disarmament of the FDLR, following Assembly last year, people were disappointed that he the work with the M23. We are disappointed that the was moving on from the post of Foreign Secretary, but vast majority of the FDLR has chosen not to disarm glad that he retains responsibility for those issues. He voluntarily. The international community estimates that has passed the baton, and, from a Foreign Office perspective, 1,200 members of the FDLR still exist in eastern DRC. I continue to monitor those issues. I am sure they will Those members have chosen not to surrender, renounce remain central, whatever Government we have after the violence or submit to disarmament or demobilisation, general election. and at the moment they are not involved in the reintegration The hon. Member for Islington North spoke about process. We must push the Congolese army and rape. We often talk of rape as a weapon of war, but MONUSCO to encourage them in whatever way is sadly in the DRC it is also a political weapon. Women needed. who are politically active are often raped multiple times The hon. Gentleman asked to what degree the UN over a period of time and gang-raped as punishment for forces should be proactive. Some of the threats of their involvement in politics. Clearly, that is unacceptable. proactive activity against the M23 and the FDLR have He talked about the longer term. It is a challenge to been effective. It is right that MONUSCO carries out look at the long term when so many things are happening proactive, kinetic activity, rather than just sitting in in the short term. However, social change and changing camp and reacting to situations; that is in line with its social attitudes towards rape and sexual violence is the mandate to neutralise armed groups, as set out in right way forward. We cannot just respond to crimes. Security Council resolution 2147. The UK has therefore funded the campaign “Silent No In January, the Government of the DRC announced More”—if the hon. Gentleman is not familiar with it, I that they had started military action against the FDLR. can send him details of it—which is a very good project However, the British Government’s assessment is that and a good example of what the UK is doing to address comprehensive operations are yet to commence. We that issue. It focuses on working with community leaders have reiterated to the Government of the DRC that to help change perceptions and challenge attitudes about international expectations remain high. The threat posed sexual violence. It particularly focuses on men and boys. to civilians is high, and the threat to the security and There are a number of other programmes, such as those stability of the region simply must be tackled. We have run by War Child, to help child soldiers who may have emphasised that the FARDC—the DRC army—and been perpetrators of rape in the past to reintegrate into MONUSCO must ensure that efforts are made to minimise the community and adopt new norms. any impact on civilians; that should be at the forefront There are still accusations that the army, police and of military planning. security agencies are complicit in killings, rapes and the The hon. Gentleman mentioned the political space ill-treatment of detainees. That is clearly unacceptable, and governance. Elections and the democratic transition and it is one of the key reasons why the DRC is in the of power are integral parts of our efforts to build a formal “country of concern” category, and why a whole secure and prosperous DRC. President Kabila has an chapter in the FCO’s human rights and democracy opportunity to leave a significant and positive legacy. report, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman has seen, is Presidential and parliamentary elections need to be focused on the DRC. credible, inclusive and peaceful. Crucially, they must In conclusion, I would like to reiterate how seriously respect the will of all the Congolese people. The constitution the Government take the region. More than 5 million and the African Union charter on democracy, elections people have been killed there over the past 20 years and, and governance must form a key part of that legacy. although the DRC has the potential for economic prosperity The Prime Minister has been keen to put governance at and opportunity, its GDP is little more than $1 a day. In the centre of everything we do through the Foreign my few remaining seconds, I want to return to the issue Office, the Department for International Development, of political detainees, particularly those detained after the UN, the golden thread, the high-level partnership, the January problems. I am very concerned about the 509WH Democratic Republic of the Congo 25 MARCH 2015 510WH (Human Rights) [James Duddridge] High Speed 2 [Relevant documents: Thirteenth Report from the Environmental narrowing of the political space in the DRC, and about Audit Committee, Session 2013-14, on HS2 and the environment, the fact that a number of Opposition MPs have been HC 1076, and the Government response, HC (2014-15) 216.] detained and harassed. I am happy to take up individual cases, if I can co-ordinate with the hon. Gentleman, in addition to what we are already doing. We must do all [MR CLIVE BETTS in the Chair] we can to protect the DRC’s political space, particularly in the run-up to the election, when the constitution must be protected. We must continue to do what we can 2.30 pm to end poverty in that area and improve human rights. The DRC should be a strong and prosperous country. Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. You may have liked to have been down in this 11.30 am part of the Chamber to speak not exactly in favour of Sitting suspended. High Speed 2, but I welcome you to the Chair. I also welcome all my colleagues, and I am delighted that so many of them, particularly my Buckinghamshire colleagues and ministerial colleagues, have turned up to listen and contribute to today’s debate on behalf of their constituents, particularly in light of the achievement of having secured this debate. I think I am the last person to secure a debate on HS2 in this Parliament, although I am very pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) is also in the room, as he was the first person in this Parliament to do so. Tomorrow, the Commons will prorogue, after all Bills have received Royal Assent. However, one Bill will not have received Royal Assent and, uniquely, will be carried over to the next Parliament—the High Speed Rail (London-West Midlands) Bill. This project is so large—so gargantuan—that it is being carried over into the next Parliament. It is the largest peacetime infrastructure project that we have seen in this country, and it cannot be dealt with in just one Parliament. Unless an incoming Government think again, it will continue very much as it is currently planned. However, I want the Government to think again, no matter what political complexion inherits the government of this country after the election on7May. After six years of opposing this project, the comment I hear most is, “Surely HS2 cannot be going ahead.” That is always followed by a Victor Meldrew moment for constituents, or anybody who learns about HS2, and they say, “I don’t believe it!” What they cannot believe are the justifications claimed by Government and officials for spending such a large sum on a project with such doubtful merits for most of the population and in the vested interests of the few who stand to benefit, particularly those who stand to benefit financially.

Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing a debate on this very thorny issue for many of our constituents. Does she agree with my assessment that if whoever forms the next Government wish to carry on with this white elephant project, they will have to come back to this House of Parliament and ask for another huge increase in the budget for HS2?

Mrs Gillan: That certainly is a possibility, which I shall refer to later, because this morning we had another adverse report, this time from the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee. If this project goes ahead as proposed, I think many people will have to suspend disbelief, and the Government’s pockets will have to be even deeper. 511WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 512WH

Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): I ransom by a smaller party. Alex Salmond declared that thank my right hon. Friend for giving way so early in one of his demands as the price for propping up a the debate, and I congratulate her on her long-standing Labour Government would be to start the high-speed campaign on this issue. Does she agree that the £50 billion rail link from Scotland to England, before connecting so far earmarked for HS2 could be spent on infrastructure Birmingham to London. projects right across the country to everyone’s benefit—to the nation’s benefit—and not solely on HS2, which as I like and admire many of my Labour colleagues. No she says, has again been scrutinised unfavourably this prisoners are ever taken by them, and I am second to week? none in my admiration for the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), who has trodden this path with me over five years, but surely Mrs Gillan: That is absolutely right. Many of our even the Labour party, should it be successful, would local organisations got together in Buckinghamshire not want that sort of political blackmail as the hallmark and named their organisation 51m, because had the of its term in government. money been spent in another way, it could have resulted in £51 million being available in each and everybody’s constituency to spend on our constituents. I believe that Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Will the right on current pricing, it should be renamed 87m, because hon. Lady give way? it is looking more like £87 million per constituency, but I will come to that later. Thanks to the brilliant economic management of a Mrs Gillan: I will, but my next sentence is that I do Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has not want a Labour, or Labour-led, Government. rescued our economy, we have—it is no joke—a solid, long-term economic plan, which is providing the foundations for continuous growth. We need investment Kelvin Hopkins: I just say that if the Scottish National in infrastructure and public services, and economic party is so keen, perhaps the could stability against which our private sector can develop pay for it. and our public services improve. Mrs Gillan: There is a lot of support for that on this Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I hope my right hon. side of the House. I do not want a Labour-led Government, Friend will join me in congratulating the Economic and certainly not one that will be blackmailed by a Secretary to the Treasury, who has joined us in the smaller party.I want an incoming Conservative Government Chamber and has created these excellent conditions. with a healthy majority to rethink, refine and re-engineer Will my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham this project before we are locked into the most expensive and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) join me in recognising that Procrustean bed in history. things will be very difficult for a number of colleagues in government when they face this project going ahead I turn to some of the detail and the increasing problems. at great cost to their constituents, with cross-party On the current plans for HS2 phase 1, there is still no support? It has a distinctly anti-democratic flavour at confirmed connection to central London. The Euston times. proposals have gone back to the drawing board and Old Oak Common just might be the final terminus. That will connect with nowhere meaningful for many years. Mrs Gillan: I am proud of my colleagues who are in government—and should remain in government—who have spoken up and pointed out the failings of this Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): My right hon. project from within Government, as I did when I was Friend has been a good friend since 1992 and a doughty part of the Government. I have had the good fortune of fighter on this particular campaign. On the point that being liberated on the Back Benches, and am able to she just made, is she also aware that many people in the speak out freely in public. That is not always possible. midlands, while having to put up with HS2 crashing However, I always observed Cabinet collective responsibility through their constituencies and countryside, were at and only spoke on platforms in my constituency. I wish least offered the chance of going to a railway station, the same could be said of the Liberal Democrats, who say, in Birmingham in the morning and waking up in seem to have cast Cabinet collective responsibility, and the afternoon in Paris or Lille? However, not only does that sort of responsibility for being in government, to it not connect with London in the way in which we the wind. The politics of convenience are not my politics, thought, but it does not even connect with the channel so I am proud of the part that my colleagues have tunnel. played. They have been stalwart compatriots in a very difficult subject area for all of us. None of us here is really naturally a rebel, and this is a difficult issue to Mrs Gillan: That is absolutely correct. There is no grasp, as I hope people will appreciate. direct connection to the channel tunnel, and people, By default, HS2 has been part of that long-term particularly up in the north, have been sold a pup; they economic plan. As the doubts have been growing about were told that they could get to Brussels or the continent it, I think we need to ask ourselves whether this is the much more easily, but that is not going to happen. Also, best way forward for the honestly held ambitions of until we know the outcome of the Davies commission Conservatives for this country—or indeed, of any other on airports, no connection to any future hub airport in party. There is only a small chance that the incoming the south-east will exist, and even the Heathrow link or Government will totally abandon the plans, and if they spur has been cancelled. That might gladden the heart do, it may now only be because they are being held to of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for 513WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 514WH

[Mrs Gillan] that it was assumed that no one did any meaningful work on a train. That was extraordinary to me. The Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), for whom I have a great deal argument has been fraught with holes since the beginning. of sympathy, but the fact is that the project is being I think that even at the current estimate, the Treasury developed in isolation. will not be impressed, and in the final analysis it will be the Treasury that holds the purse strings. Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend understand the disappointment at not having the regional high-speed trains through to the Andrew Bridgen: Is not the single argument, the single continent that were promised for Birmingham airport fact, that repeatedly holes the Government’s economic in my constituency? The concept was presented of clearing case for HS2 below the waterline that if there were a customs at Birmingham and being able to travel through genuine business case for HS2, we would not need to to the continent, which is now not a possibility. put in £50 billion of taxpayers’ money, because the City of London would be more than happy to fund it? Mrs Gillan: I know. So many people have been marched up the garden path and marched down again. It is Mrs Gillan: The Government always go on about the appalling that such deception could have gone on for so Victorian railways, but they forget that it was private long and then gradually fallen away, yet the project still investors who built the Victorian railways. It will not be survives as currently envisaged. HS2 has been developed private investors that build HS2 or even HS3, as far as I in isolation, with no reference to any strategic and can see. Also, the costings that are still being cited are at integrated transport plan for future passenger and freight 2011 prices. The Department refused to update those transport across all modes of transport. That is confirmed figures for me or even for the Economic Affairs Committee in the House of Lords report released today. in the other place, so the Economic Affairs Committee To derive many of HS2’s claimed benefits, large has recalculated the costs, using the movement in public investments will have to be made even to connect it to sector construction contracts since 2011, and its new the cities that it is supposed to serve. As you well know, estimate is £56.6 billion at 2014 prices, because that is Mr Betts, that is the case in Sheffield. The capacity the year for which figures are available in order to make problems that it is supposed to cure have been challenged the calculation. repeatedly, with Government insisting that we are already full to capacity on the west coast main line, despite their There is evidence that the Government did not give own figures showing differently. I refer to page 46 of equal consideration to alternatives to HS2. The opportunity “The Economics of High Speed 2”, the report released costs of spending £56.6 billion on one project have also today, which shows that quite clearly. escaped evaluation by the Government. As I said, 51m, so called because that is what each of us would have had Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I am most grateful to to spend in our constituencies if HS2 had not gone my right hon. Friend for calling the debate. As a regular ahead, should now be called 87m—£87 million for the traveller on the west coast main line, I can confirm that constituency of each and every Member in this place. I outside peak hours, most trains have many carriages, am sure that if we gave that money to all our constituents, particularly first-class carriages, that are almost empty. the first project that they came up with would not be Despite the welcome reduction in first-class carriages HS2. on the Pendolinos from four to three, that is still too much capacity that is unused and completely wasted. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): One thing that is noticeable to my constituents is that they live on Mrs Gillan: I know. A member of my team uses those an island and they have no benefit whatever from HS2. trains, so I get regular reports and what I am hearing is not surprising. The House of Lords Committee finds the situation incredible, and so do I; and my hon. Mrs Gillan: I suppose I could say that they are lucky Friend has just confirmed the position to me, for which they have no disbenefit from HS2, but that is one of the I am grateful. The business case has not been updated pertinent points. This railway is being built for the few, since 2013, and the cost-benefit analysis, now described certainly not the many. by the Economic Affairs Committee as “unconvincing”, Even the claims of rebalancing the economy between is based on an old, outdated set of facts and information. the north and the south do not stack up. There is clear evidence pointing to London being the real gainer from Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): I am grateful the project as currently configured, and we are all to my right hon. Friend, because it seems to me that forgetting the ill fated KPMG report that revealed that that goes to the heart of what this debate should be all many parts of the country would lose millions of pounds about. I have some sympathy for the Government and, from their local economies, because those economies indeed, with the reasons that underpinned the launching would be hollowed out as businesses were attracted, like of this project, because very often one can say that a bee to a honeypot, to the line of route. projects of this kind may be long term and one has to look beyond a basic economic case. However, the more I am sad to say this to my hon. Friend the Minister, it goes on, the more the evidence mounts up that there is whom I consider to be a friend and of whom I am very in fact no economic case, yet we do not get a proper fond, but—[Laughter.] There is always a “but” with response. me. This project has been guilty of unsatisfactory and often callous public engagement with the people and Mrs Gillan: The economic case was dodgy in the first communities affected, disrespect for opposing viewpoints, place and has been challenged by many economists and including those of elected representatives, failure to outside commentators. One of the basic problems was observe the basic rules of consultation, often perceived 515WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 516WH indifference towards the environment, and suppression Office, the Public Accounts Committee, the Institute of of the reports on the deliverability of and risks posed by Directors, and numerous local authorities and outside the project. commentators. Last week, I wrote to the chairman of the Office for Budget Responsibility to ask him, as part Michael Fabricant rose— of his remit to assess the long-term sustainability of the public finances, to carry out a review of the impact of Mrs Gillan: That is not a great track record, if hon. HS2 on budgeted capital expenditure and Department Members will forgive the pun. I will certainly give way for Transport expenditure. Should I be fortunate enough now that I have delivered my punchline. to be returned to the House by the electors of Chesham and Amersham after 7 May, I hope that I will receive a Michael Fabricant: My right hon. Friend is very kind detailed response from Mr Chote that may enlighten us and very generous; she knows me of old. Is it not more. interesting that one reason why the present Government Many detailed questions are posed in the Lords report, decided not to go with the original Arup proposal and all of which need to be answered before the project goes follow the route, which would have been much cheaper, any further. I think that the Minister should consider of an existing transport corridor was that they wanted some specifics, particularly if he is willing to rethink the to go at ultra-high speed, and ultra-high speed trains project. The rebalancing of wealth between north and need to travel in straight lines? However, because of the south is an admirable objective. With a family who work of the Department for Transport and the ongoing came from a steel firm in Sheffield, I know that better work of the parliamentary Committee, which has caused than most, as do you, Mr Betts. However, would it not a number of changes in the route, we now know that in yield faster and more effective results, as I have often fact the trains will not be able to go at ultra-high speed, said, if cross-Pennine connections were prioritised before because there are so many changes to the route. They any London-Birmingham link? Before starting on any could have followed an existing transport corridor, saving link from Birmingham southwards, should we not wait money and the environment. for the Davies report on airport capacity in the south-east and plan accordingly? More importantly, should we not commission a major strategic transport plan across all Mrs Gillan: That is a very valid point, but I have to modes of transport, with particular reference to the say that, following the publication of a recent document, modern and emerging technologies of smart motorways, we know that HS2 will at least be well designed. The driverless cars, driverless trains, super-Maglev and vacuum latest document from HS2 is “HS2 Design Vision”. It is tube trains, to say nothing of the increasing power and not a very weighty document, but there is a long list of use of high-speed broadband and satellite communications, contributors, and I learn in it that we will be which were raised by the Prime Minister today in a “Celebrating the local within a coherent national narrative”. tremendous Prime Minister’s Question Time? It continues: We in the line of the route have always had to make “Each place and space that is created as part of the system will other plans. We could not simply oppose the project; we contribute to HS2’s own identity. had to make contingency plans in case it went ahead. In The design challenge will be to develop a coherent approach, this day and age of politicians outbidding each other to establishing uniformity where it is essential while encouraging be greener than green, how can we plan for HS2 to one-off expression based on local context where appropriate. HS2 destroy parts of 41 ancient woods and damage a further seeks to enhance national and civic pride, while also supporting 42 that lie near the construction boundary, to say nothing its own brand to support its operational and commercial objectives. of the destruction of the area of outstanding natural It will therefore include many local design stories within one beauty and the historic sites that lie in the path of the compelling national narrative.” monster? I am a fellow of the Chartered Institute of Marketing Convinced, if the project goes ahead, that the and an old marketing director, and that takes even my destruction of the area of outstanding natural beauty breath away. I have to say that it is not worth the paper in the Chilterns can be avoided—and with my support, it is written on. My hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield and that of my right hon. Friend the Member for (Michael Fabricant) is quite right. The design of the Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), the right hon. Member for project is coming into question, because there were Buckingham (John Bercow), my right hon. and learned alternatives that have not, in my view, been properly Friend the Member for Beaconsfield and particularly considered. After six years of the project, since Andrew my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe—Chiltern Adonis first announced it, we were supposed to have a district council, Buckinghamshire county council, the fully integrated, connected railway smoothing northern Chilterns conservation board and Aylesbury Vale district access to the continent, whisking non-train-working council commissioned a new, independent report to businessmen along at speeds hitherto only dreamed of consider a better and viable alternative to the Government’s on a British railway and reducing air travel demand. We route through Buckinghamshire. The report will be learn from recent press coverage that those passengers published tomorrow and presented here, in Committee will be whisked along on luxury leather-upholstered Room 19, at 4 o’clock, and I invite the Minister and seating in child and family-free carriages. The design other hon. Members to attend. vision has, for me, really put the icing on the cake. Is this The main conclusion of that study is that a long really what people want? Certainly not the people who tunnel for the transit of the Chilterns by HS2 is technically have contacted me, not only from my constituency but feasible and would protect the designated landscape of from up and down the country. the Chilterns AONB and the green belt. The second The list of detractors grows daily. In addition to the conclusion is that that would offer a better alignment. Lords report published today, we can count the The details have already been shared with HS2 Ltd to Environmental Audit Committee, the National Audit give it time to consider the study before the local 517WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 518WH

[Mrs Gillan] Harefield about the fact that the current compensation proposals take no account of blight associated with authorities appear before the Select Committee, and I construction? When we are dealing with huge construction commend the report to the House. Accepting that option sites that will be in operation 24/7 for up to 10 years, would save time and money, because such environmental that is a very real problem. protection would reduce the number of petitioners, lawyers’ fees and the time that people spend scrutinising Mrs Gillan: I agree entirely. I have been talking for the legislation. It would avoid some of the last-minute, too long. I was hoping to finish earlier than this, but I knife-edge decisions that are being forced on people have been generous in giving way, so I have not been before they give evidence to the Select Committee. able to cover all the points that I hope others will cover. Giving evidence to a Select Committee is a daunting When I did the fly-through, which is a bird’s-eye view of prospect even for a politician. It is really daunting for a the whole line of the route, it showed clearly what layman who has an emotional investment in the proceedings, would happen after the line had been built, but it failed and who risks losing their home and habitat. to take into account what would happen in the wider We should also question whether we should let HS2 swathe of agony that would be cut through our countryside. Ltd continue to spend and enter long and expensive That has to be explored in far more detail. contracts when the project has not yet cleared all its I hope that the Minister will confirm when he responds parliamentary and political hurdles. The questions that that absolutely no lifestyle judgments will be made, and I have had answered recently leave no doubt about the that no such extra hurdles will be placed in front of fact that HS2 Ltd is recruiting more and more people people who are quite rightly applying for compensation. on higher and higher salaries. According to reports in We have a residents’ commissioner, Deborah Fazan, the press, some 18 executives are paid more than the who has sat since 2011 on the exceptional hardship Prime Minister. I do not know whether that is true; I do scheme committee. I have tried to meet her twice, but not believe everything that I read in the press. However, she has resisted. She says that she needs to play in on the it is alarming to think that such highly paid people are wicket, talk to HS2 and so on. I would have thought contracting on a regular basis—I have a list of the that she probably knows enough about it, having sat for contracts—when they have not been given the clear so many years on the exceptional hardship scheme. She say-so by this House or the other place. is supposed to be independent, and I hope the Minister I believe more than ever that a pause and a re-evaluation will clarify her role because she is paid by HS2 Ltd and are necessary before the die is cast and we have no has not yet met me. I do not know how my residents option but to plough ahead. I will conclude shortly, access her or bring their points to her, and I certainly do because I know that many other people want to speak. I not know how to access her, so will the Minister help? hope that the Members who are allowed to speak will There is an old expression, “He who pays the piper calls be those along the route who have a real interest in the the tune,” and I hope that her being paid through HS2 matter because their constituencies will be particularly Ltd and the Department for Transport does not affected. I hope that the speakers will not simply be, as compromise her independence. I have argued for an always seems to be the case, those who habitually support independent ombudsman, which should have been put the project from afar. Before I conclude, I want to raise in place and would have provided a better service. some compensation matters, because we have all had to HS2 has taken over many lives, and none more so make plans on the basis that the project would go than those of our colleagues who serve on the Select ahead. As many hon. Members know, the lives, properties, Committee. I praise the Committee’s work. My hon. businesses and futures of many of our constituents have Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms) and all members been blighted by this project. They have lived through of the Committee have worked assiduously and, like my five years of sheer hell, or, as I have dubbed it, shire hell. hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire Some—the lucky ones—have sold, and they have usually (Andrea Leadsom), I am keen that the Committee’s accepted offers of less than their properties are actually recommendations are upheld. If there is an unsatisfactory worth. Some have moved on. Some have had their response from HS2 Ltd to the Committee’s assurances health severely affected. Some have died. Some have and recommendations, they should be followed up, with taken the compensation on offer. the possibility of petitioners reappearing before the It was only this year, after five years, that the Committee, if necessary. I do not want the Minister to compensation for my constituents and “the need to pass the buck to the Committee, because that is not sell” scheme were finally settled. People are still battling correct. The Department for Transport should retain a with complex bureaucracy, form-filling and unacceptable deep and detailed involvement in all matters. questioning. I have the distinct impression that lifestyle As I am thanking people, I want to mention the judgments are being made about people who apply for Clerk, Neil Caulfield, and all the officials of the House compensation. It should be none of the Department’s who work with him and have given sterling service to us business what lifestyle anyone chooses to pursue. The all. Without doubt, it is a difficult job at the best of decision should not really depend on what other assets times, and it is a terrible job when dealing with people they have, because it is the asset in question—usually who are so anxious, angry, aggressive and upset and their home—that is affected. The Department should who feel threatened. Those officials have done a fantastic accept the need to sell without making onerous demands job in liaising and perhaps repairing some of the damage for personal details. done during the early contact between officials and people in our constituencies. Mr Nick Hurd (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con): My Conservative district council, Chiltern district council, I wholly endorse what my right hon. Friend is saying and my Conservative county council, Buckinghamshire about the “need to sell” scheme. Do her constituents county council, have been absolutely superb. I want feel the frustration that is felt deeply in Ickenham and every Conservative district councillor who has stood 519WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 520WH shoulder to shoulder with me on this to be re-elected on 3.5 pm 7 May, rather than those Johnny-come-latelies who suddenly decided, after their manifesto contained three Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): I congratulate high-speed rail plans, that they were against this one. the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham We are not falling for that, I am afraid. (Mrs Gillan) on securing this debate. In the short time available to me, I will focus on an issue of great concern As many hon. Members know, I also want to thank to my constituents. The Hoo Green to Bamfurlong spur HS2 Action Alliance, including Emma Crane—she has would be the whitest of white elephants. Building it provided me with valuable and excellent legal advice— would destroy two villages in my constituency, Culcheth Hilary Wharf and Bruce Weston, who are well known and Hollins Green, and inflict serious environemtnal to everyone here. I also thank the Chiltern Ridges damage. Action Group, the Residents’ Environmental Protection Association and, particularly, the Woodland Trust, which The case for the spur has now been seriously undermined. I first worked with in 1992 to save Penn wood in my The spur results from a perverse decision to join the constituency.Penn wood was the first substantial woodland west coast main line north of Warrington, rather than bought by the Woodland Trust, which has stood full north of Crewe. The original cost of the spur was square with us on the environmental case throughout. I estimated to be £800 million, which has now risen to thank Conserve the Chilterns and Countryside and the £1 billion. HS2 justified that cost, as opposed to the Chilterns Conservation Board. I particularly pay tribute £750 million original estimate for joining the west coast to Steve Rodrick, who has just left the Chilterns main line south of Warrington, on the grounds that it Conservation Board, but I hope he will come back to would otherwise have to do a great deal of work to give evidence to the Select Committee on our behalf. I Crewe station. That has now fallen apart because, after also thank the Chiltern Society, the Wildlife Trusts and, the Government accepted the recommendations of the particularly, the Country Land and Business Association, Higgins report, Crewe will now be the main transport which helped on some complex matters. hub for the area. I pay particular tribute to my parliamentary colleagues, There is no justification for not joining the main starting with the right hon. Member for Holborn and line near Crewe. The costings given for that were, to say St Pancras. He will be a great loss to this House. He may the very least, dubious. The average cost works out at not be of my political persuasion, but I have found him £22.9 million a kilometre. That sounds a lot, but it is easy to work with. He has not veered from a difficult only 28.6% of the cost of building the line elsewhere, path, and he has been a steadfast companion on this which includes building a huge viaduct over the Manchester route. I, for one, wish him and his wife very well. I hope ship canal, bridges over the motorways and big we will see him again. I hope that he will not completely embankments running through the village of Hollins depart these buildings and that he has a further contribution Green. The costings simply do not stack up. to make. The second part of the case against the spur is the I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member economic damage that would be caused to the villages for Aylesbury, who, with the right hon. Member for of Hollins Green and Culcheth. The line would destroy Buckingham, has been the mainstay of trying to get a business park just outside Culcheth, with the loss of some changes to this project. Having ministerial colleagues 500 jobs. The knock-on effect would mean that the here today is important because it means they are as village of Culcheth and all its businesses not only lose one with what is being said here and would like to see business from those people but lose outside trade changes. I hope they will work again from inside the because three of the four main routes into the village Government to get the changes to this project that we would be closed during construction, possibly causing want—their working from outside the Government would many businesses to fold. Culcheth is a large village that serve no purpose whatever. relies on trade from outside coming into its shops and Any fool can spend money, and there is great appetite restaurants. for what the Department proposes to spend on HS2, Similarly, a viaduct on Hollins Green would bisect but as Conservatives we know that spending money the ancient parish of Rixton-with-Glazebrook and wisely is what matters. On the penultimate day of this destroy businesses in the area, and the prospect has Parliament, in which the Conservative-led Government blighted homes, yet the Government cannot give us have shown that they have governed the country responsibly, the figures. In other words, the economic case is being restored our reputation for good governance and been made without making the case for the damage caused the architect of our economic renaissance, will the to the economy elsewhere. Warrington will not benefit Minister please listen to the many voices raised in good from this part of the line because it will not get a faith to question HS2? Will he not only fully publish all station. Nor is there a knock-on effect elsewhere in the the information available to him but undertake a constituency, which, as one gentleman said to me, re-evaluation of the worth of this project? Saying, “We might have justified what is happening. We have the might not have got this absolutely right,” is the hardest pain, but we do not have the gain. In fact, we would thing to ask any Minister to do, but it would be the right probably end up with a worse service from Warrington thing to do before spending a king’s ransom on a white than we have now, given that we already have one train elephant. an hour to London and one train an hour to Glasgow. We can get to London in just under two hours on a Several hon. Members rose— direct train. Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Before I call the first I say to the Minister that the case does not stack up. speaker, I will set a time limit of four minutes. Hopefully, The Government have not looked at the whole economic most people who have indicated that they want to speak benefit, and they need to save £1 billion of public will be able to do so. money by abandoning the spur. 521WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 522WH

3.10 pm environmental compensation and in the analysis of Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): My constituency HS2’s environmental impact. That has highlighted the has both the pain and the gain, having the first station opportunity we have to do things such as create Natura outside London as the proposals stand. 2000 sites in some of the worst-affected places. We can never replace ancient woodland—that is a given—but I request again that the Minister look at a tunnel on we can calculate the value of our natural capital and the approach to the interchange station at Birmingham do something sufficiently ambitious to compensate for International airport. At present, a flyover will be needed its loss, even if the regeneration and restoration take over the west coast main line at the height of the tree some time. line, which would be visually very intrusive in the village of Balsall Common. If a tunnel could be constructed I would like to finish by commending the work of the under the existing airport terminus, there would be no parish councils and residents’ associations in my need for an overhead railway, which would add significantly constituency on the action they have taken to highlight to the journey time of those coming from London to the project’s impact on them—as I said, we have the take an aircraft from the airport. A tunnel would leave pain and the gain. I also commend the work of Solihull the surface free of the rigidity of the railway tracks and, council in drawing the Government’s attention to the importantly, preserve some of the precious green belt need to rework the cost-benefit analysis of the tunnel around the villages in the Meriden gap. from Berkswell to Birmingham International airport so Compensation for the construction works is important. that it takes full account of what could be achieved not Judging by the environmental statement, we shall be a only to benefit the environment and the community, but building site for the next five years, but there is no to improve transport access and, therefore, to achieve a compensation scheme for the construction works. The better outcome. scheme relates to the tracks, but many of my constituents will be severely affected by the construction works, as 3.15 pm will country lanes around villages in the area, including Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I Diddington lane and Kelsey lane. Currently, however, thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham there is no help with that. and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) for her kind remarks Hon. Members who have used the M40 will know about our co-operation and for thanking the various that junction 6 is a nightmare because of the combination bodies concerned. of the airport, the national exhibition centre and the Today’s report from the House of Lords Economic west coast main line. Just making some improvements Affairs Committee batters great lumps out of the case to the junction will not be enough when we have a for HS2. The Committee did not ask any questions that high-speed rail interchange. A two-junction solution is we have not been asking for the last five years. HS2 had required. I urge the Minister to reject proposals for a no satisfactory answers before, and it apparently still motorway service area south of junction 6 to go ahead has none. before the development of High Speed 2. If an interchange I want to draw attention to the situation in my station is built north of the junction, it is obvious that constituency, which is the most affected by the proposals. the motorway service area should be incorporated there. The proposals involve the demolition of the homes of I could not deal with this subject without touching on about 500 people and would leave about 5,000 people the opportunity to do really good biodiversity offsetting. living next to Europe’s biggest building site for the best It is not good enough to plant a few trees along the part of 15 years. track. As the Country Land and Business Association Under the original proposals, HS2 was going to says, that is a poor solution for some of the best and knock down Euston station and rebuild it, incorporating most valued farmland. I recommend that the Minister a further 75 metres to the west to provide space for look at the proposal from Birmingham university and everything, including the new high-speed line. Originally, Arup to significantly regenerate the Tame river valley in that was going to cost £1.2 billion. Eight months later, a east Birmingham and the Blythe and Cole valleys in my revised estimate of £2 billion was put forward—the constituency, in line with the Government’s natural figure had gone up by just £100 million a month. environment White Paper and using the national ecosystem Apparently, £2 billion was too much, so the scheme was assessment and the work of the Natural Capital Committee. cut back, which would have given us a rather elegant Then, at least, we would have a lasting legacy at landscape lean-to shed for HS2 at the west side of Euston station, scale, which we would be able to tell our constituents at a cost of £1.4 billion. That is what was in the Bill that was providing proper protection for the environment. came to the House of Commons. By the time it got Mrs Gillan: I particularly wanted to commend the here, however, we were told that that was not going to Chairman of the Environmental Audit Committee, the be done any more and that we would go back to the vast hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), new scheme. The detailed proposals for that scheme who is leaving the House. She travelled to Brussels with were supposed to be available in October last year. me the other day to visit the environment directorate-general Recently, in meetings with local people, however, HS2 to look at what more we could do to protect the has admitted that it has no such proposals and that it is environment. I do not know whether my right hon. going back to the lean-to shed version, which will now Friend would venture an opinion at this stage, but I cost £2.6 billion. Who would put £50 billion on a racing think it is important that we look at perhaps declaring stable that produces rubbish like this? the Chilterns a Natura 2000 site. We were told that a supposed connection to the channel tunnel link would bring all sorts of benefits: Mrs Spelman: I also commend the work of the Chairman people would be able to get on a train in Manchester of the Environmental Audit Committee, as well as the and go to Paris. We told HS2 that that was not a Committee’s work in highlighting the weaknesses in the workable proposition, and even the Institution of Civil 523WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 524WH

Engineers said it was not, but no, HS2 persisted—and right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham then the connection was abandoned. One explanation about the process being undemocratic, because we have was that HS2 had come across “unforeseen factors”, had a vote in the House. The problem is that only those including the need to “widen the route”. Now, anybody of us who will be affected by the project have looked who starts an engineering project without realising that they into it in detail and realise why it is so flawed. There are will need to widen the route if they add some lines really exceptions, but many other people have not had that is not fit to be put in charge of spending £50 billion. benefit, and do not have to look at the issue. If we could get that message out to more people, more of them Michael Fabricant: Is my right hon. Friend—I will would realise that it is a waste of money. call him that—aware that the completion of Birmingham New Street, including a new department store, has been Mrs Gillan: I shall miss my hon. Friend in the House. delayed by a year and a half because of construction He has made a fantastic contribution and has been a problems? Who is doing the project? The selfsame people good friend on HS2. I was talking to his potential who are supposed to be designing the new Euston HS2 successor and exchanging views on HS2. The view is terminal. that, as with Crossrail, ’twas best put underground totally, across the piece; then there would be a lot less Frank Dobson: I should add, Mr Betts, that the disruption and perhaps it would attract more love and people who have been making those preposterous estimates, affection, like Crossrail. May I also say that I did not coming up with ludicrous proposals that will not work, say the process was undemocratic; I just said that the are all very well-rewarded consultants. I believe that Bill has not gone through all its stages in the two Houses, they have already had three quarters of a billion pounds and it is unwise to extend contracts before we have in fees, so hard-working consultants are doing rather completed our scrutiny. well. As far as I can see, the only train that has actually Sir John Randall: My right hon. Friend alluded to my moved is the consultancy gravy train. putative successor—if the electorate are so inclined. I I advise people that if we want to benefit the cities of have had conversations with him, and although Mr the north, the answer is to invest in the cities of the is a shy and retiring fellow he is keen to north and their immediate transport requirements, rather take up the cudgels on behalf of my constituents and than spending what it is now believed will be £7 billion Hillingdon residents, on fair compensation, tunnelling on a full-scale development of Euston. Will Sheffield, and many other things. I thank my hon. Friend the Leeds or Manchester benefit from an investment of Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, who has £7 billion in Euston? Euston certainly will not benefit, been tireless in his work on HS2. It is a great shame that and I do not think anywhere else will. I will not be working with him any more in this place. However, I expect to be on the front line with my Helen Jones: On a point of order, Mr Betts. Would it placard, as a latter-day Swampy. be possible at this point, as this is possibly my right hon. The House of Lords report sums things up well: Friend’s last speech in the House, to record our appreciation “The cost-benefit analysis for HS2 relies on evidence that is of his service over many years, particularly to his out-of-date and unconvincing. The Government needs to provide constituents, and his devoted service to the national fresh, compelling evidence that HS2 will deliver the benefits it health service, from which we have all benefited? claims.” The Government must make the case, if they are so Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Of course, that is not a convinced, and give the evidence for it. Finally, as I have point of order for the Chair, but the Chair’s inability to been encouraging the Government to dig tunnels in my comment on it should not be taken as disagreement constituency, and have had some success, I caution with it. them not to dig a hole for themselves.

3.21 pm 3.25 pm Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I This will be my last speech in Westminster Hall, but I believe that the case for HS2 is so overwhelming that it hope to catch Mr Speaker’s eye tomorrow for a final is not a question of why we are doing it, but why we are time. It is fitting that my speech today should be about not doing it quicker, although I realise that people HS2, because it has been a core matter for many of my would not get that impression from the debate. I constituents and other Hillingdon residents for the past congratulate the right hon. Member for Chesham and few years. We have experience in my constituency of Amersham (Mrs Gillan) on obtaining the debate. She is another great project going through—Crossrail. We a doughty fighter for her constituents, and no doubt have not really had any confrontation or controversy on had she achieved her ambition to represent Manchester that, because it brings obvious benefits to the people she would have been just as doughty a fighter for HS2 involved. as she is against it now. To refer back to the comments of my right hon. Reading the report of the House of Lords Economic Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham Affairs Committee and listening to the debate have (Mrs Gillan), I want to mention that the Select Committee’s made it clear to me why this country is so appallingly work is exemplary. It has been sorting out problems and bad at major infrastructure projects. How many new has been helpful to petitioners; but it has been given a arterial routes have we had in this country in the past difficult task. I do not want to dwell on constituency 40 years? The answer is one—leaving the country, as points; I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for part of an international treaty: HS1. The real reason we Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd) will have an need HS2, going both west and east of the country as it opportunity to talk about them. I disagree with my gets further north, is that the motorway system is clogged. 525WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 526WH

[Graham Stringer] 3.31 pm

The M1 and M6 are congested a great deal of the time. Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): Thank you, The west and east coast railways are often congested Mr Betts. I shall be as brief as I can. I have always and are reaching their limits. There is not enough recognised that infrastructure projects come at capacity on the rail system for freight. HS2, with the environmental cost. They cannot be done without that. investment of possibly £50 billion, will free up capacity My constituency has had the M4, the M25 and the M40 on all those systems. People say that alternatives have built through it, which has caused a lot of environmental not been looked at, but do they believe that there is any damage, but ultimately, those roads are appreciated and possibility that we will build new motorways west and used. east of this country? There is simply no chance. HS2 is I also recognise that the fact that my own constituents the only way to free up that capacity. may not directly benefit is not an argument for saying Certainly some things can be improved in this country. that the cost to build HS2 should not fall on them. It is interesting, in terms of both cost and speed, that on However, the point that I have always been worried the high-speed route from Tours to Bordeaux the civil about is that the project is highly speculative. I have engineering work on 200 km of line was achieved—started always given my colleagues in Government the benefit and finished—in two years. There is a lot we can learn, of the doubt. To work out a precise economic case is to lower the cost and improve the speed of what we do. difficult and perhaps in 40 years’ time people might turn The arguments are big. around and say, “This was an inspired choice.” However, I would have expected that, as the project proceeded, a Andrew Bridgen: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that greater volume of evidence would have emerged to given that London is the finest city in the world, or support the Government’s economic case, yet the very certainly in Europe, its gravitational pull—its social, contrary is the case. economic and cultural traction—means that the faster Every passing month sees a new report come out that people can get there, the quicker they will do so? It will casts doubt on out-of-date figures and, indeed, on the just draw in talent and money from the regions. The big basic premises on which the project is based. That beneficiary of HS2, if it goes ahead, will be London. troubles me very much. I hope that the Minister will be able to say what the Government will do to counter that Graham Stringer: The Transport Committee is in argument, because that is what got them through Second favour of HS2 and has not been quoted. The experience Reading. Without that answer, it seems that their case is from French cities is that it depends on how much effort undermined. a city makes. I expect that the creativity of Leeds, I will turn to the detail. When the project was proposed, Manchester and Sheffield will produce an experience quite astonishingly the Colne valley that lies in my much like that of Lille, where there has been real constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member economic benefit. for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd) was described as an area of “dug gravel pits.” In fact, it is an Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I want to essential amenity that is used by hundreds of thousands support the hon. Gentleman’s point. The history of of people on the edge of London for recreational purposes. Japan presents a salient experience. Far from producing It includes: a number of sites of special scientific interest; a gravitational pull to the centre, what it has done is wonderful water parks; leisure facilities; river walks; create a gravitational pull to where the high-speed rail otters in the river; and just about everything that could has been built, on parkway stations. possibly be wanted in terms of biodiversity within 15 miles of the centre of London. Graham Stringer: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I will finish with two quick points. Hon. Members have Sir John Randall: Does my right hon. and learned said that we should focus on east-west links in the north Friend recognise that when the gravel pits were once of the country, but actually it is much more likely—this mentioned in a discussion, I pointed out that in fact the is already happening—that we will get those links if we Norfolk broads were man-made as well? Nobody would have a strong north-south link happening. dispute that they are worth keeping. Finally, people have quoted the cost-benefit analysis, but the House of Lords Committee did not look at its Mr Grieve: I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. own evidence well. Professor Dieter Helm, professor of Indeed, they are similar to the Norfolk broads in terms energy policy at Oxford, said: of recreational amenity. “A moment’s reflection indicates how weak such techniques are when it comes to deciding how much infrastructure to provide. I was told at the start of the project that it would For infrastructure typically comes in systems, not discrete bits. never be possible or economically viable to tunnel under Choosing what sort and level of infrastructure to supply is not a the River Colne because that would cost in the region of marginal decision. It is often about one system or another. £1 billion more than a viaduct—I remember that figure Marginal analysis—as the core of cost-benefit analysis—has little being given. By last month, we were told that, because obvious to offer.” the viaduct will cost so much, the true differential is a High Speed 2 has a great deal to offer to both the north mere £185 million. In the great scheme of the £50 billion- and the south of the country. plus we are talking about for this project, that seems to be something that the Government really ought to Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Order. For all the consider, given the damage to the environment not just speakers before the Front-Bench Members come in, I for the local community and residents, but for all the will have to reduce the time limit to three minutes. I am other people who come to make use of this recreational sorry. area. That same point could be made about the tunnel 527WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 528WH under the area of outstanding natural beauty, but I will station in the wrong place. The last place that a business focus on the Colne valley because of its importance not traveller from Birmingham or whatever who wants to just to the local community, but to the residents. get to the City or Canary Wharf wants to arrive is I am very grateful that my right hon. Friend the Euston. They would want to get to somewhere linked Secretary of State for Transport announced that the on to Crossrail to get through to those places, and not Heathrow spur would effectively not go ahead. That have to struggle with their laptop and wheelie case from removes a great deal of potential blight from my Euston on to the tube and then the docklands light constituency and it is quite clear that it was not needed. railway to get to Canary Wharf. That is a nonsense. However, parts of the bits of the junctions and other infrastructure still remain in the Bill, which worries me Michael Fabricant: The right hon. Gentleman is about the potential for blight. I hope that the Minister absolutely right. Is he also aware that a business traveller will reassure me that the necessary steps will be taken to from the Birmingham area first has to get to Birmingham ensure that such potential for blight is removed from New Street and then, with all their baggage, has to walk the Bill. across Birmingham to get to Curzon Street station, only to end up at the wrong station—Euston? As I said The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport earlier on, any hope of getting directly to France has (Mr Robert Goodwill): I give my right hon. and learned now evaporated. Friend that reassurance now. Kelvin Hopkins: I am not yet a Privy Counsellor and I Mr Grieve: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. do not suppose that I ever will be, but the hon. Gentleman’s That will be well received in my constituency. point about Curzon Street was absolutely right; I was Finally, we have heard a lot about compensation. The coming to it myself. In my submission to the House of package has changed and been improved, but I still find Lords Committee, which was titled, “Sensible alternatives something very odd about a situation in which we have to HS2”, I gave three specific alternatives that would a need-to-sell basis for getting a full market value for cost a fraction of that amount but solve all the problems compensation for those people living outside the immediate that HS2 might supposedly solve. areas close to the track, yet if they do not go through First, I suggested the electrification of the Birmingham the paraphernalia of need to sell—I suspect that some Snow Hill line, via Banbury, to London. It currently cases will be done, I am afraid, by requests that may goes to Marylebone or Paddington, but it could easily have a sleight of hand—they will not be adequately be linked—the tracks are already there, so all it needs is compensated. That cannot be right. I know the origin a bit of track work—to Crossrail going in both directions. of the compensation system in this country, but it is If we had an electric train from Snow Hill in the middle antiquated and it is time that we moved away from it. of the Birmingham business district that went direct to We are actually forcing people to move, because otherwise Canary Wharf at 125 mph, someone could work on a they will not get the compensation that they need. laptop without changing trains and I bet that train With those points in mind, I look forward to the would beat HS2 if otherwise that person had to get to Minister’s response. However, I come back to my original Curzon Street and then get two tube trains at the point. The Government really will have to counter the London end. HS2 is a complete and total nonsense, but growing volume of evidence that the project has serious that suggestion would provide wonderful extra capacity. flaws in its concept. That would also allow travel direct to Heathrow from the centre of Birmingham and it could be linked through 3.36 pm from Leamington Spa on to the west coast main line, so we could have Birmingham airport linked to Heathrow Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure airport with a direct, 125 mph, one-hour service. They to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, and to could almost be hubs or satellites for each other. There follow the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham could be trains from further north—from Manchester— (Mrs Gillan). I have spoken on HS2 on previous occasions coming down the west coast main line, joining the in the House and I remain of the view—in fact, it has Banbury line and going directly from the centre of got stronger—that is wholly unnecessary and ridiculously Manchester to Heathrow or Canary Wharf. It is possible expensive. The figure of £50 billion is talked about quite for a tiny fraction of the cost of HS2. a bit, but Hansard on 5 March shows that my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) drew attention to evidence presented to the HS2 Committee Frank Dobson: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is that the benefits that the alternatives to HS2 would bring to “hidden costs will raise the overall cost of the HS2…to £138 billion”. other parts of the country that probably explain why —[Official Report, 5 March 2015; Vol. 593, c. 1062.] there is a majority against HS2 in every region of this That is a massively higher figure. My contacts in the country, according to the opinion polls, even in the industry suggest that that figure is perfectly justifiable north-west, where people are most enthusiastic about and some say that the real figure would be even more. it? Even there, the divide is 43% to 39%. Even if things are expensive, I will still support them if they are the right thing to do, but this project is not. I Kelvin Hopkins: My right hon. Friend has spoken made a written submission to the House of Lords wisely, as always. Committee to set out my views in more detail, which is available on the internet. I have spoken on them before, Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Can the hon. Gentleman but let us get the first nonsense of HS2 out of the way bring his remarks to a conclusion, please, so the Front- first of all: that it must be Euston. It is the wrong Bench spokesmen can respond? 529WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 530WH

Kelvin Hopkins: Yes, indeed. There is a solution and it is the “t” word. I began My second alternative to HS2 is to upgrade the east arguing for a tunnel extension back in 2012, alongside coast main line. It needs to be four-tracked at Welwyn my right hon. Friends and neighbours: my right hon. and with an extra viaduct, a flyover at Peterborough, a learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) flyover at Newark and four-tracking in various places, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge so that there can be non-stop services from King’s Cross and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall); we will miss my to Edinburgh in three and a half hours, which was done good friend, the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and on a test run in 1990; indeed, that test run was slightly South Ruislip, dreadfully. Hillingdon council, residents faster than is being proposed with HS2. [Interruption.] and MPs are now all working alongside each other to Not a problem. make the case for a tunnel extension. Finally I will propose what I have proposed before, HS2 is unwilling to assess the viability of such an which is the Great Britain freight route. That is a extension. Hillingdon council has produced a report dedicated rail freight line, to carry lorries on trains from that shows it is technically feasible and can be done for the channel tunnel to every major region of Britain, more or less the same price as other projects. This is my using old trackbed and under-utilised lines, without ask of the Minister: can we please pressure HS2 to give causing any environmental or planning problems. The this report a serious response, which gives us a detailed details are included in my paper here, which I have breakdown of its costs for the viaduct and its estimate submitted to others from time to time. of the Hillingdon costs, so that the Transport Committee and the public can have a view on two reports and the Those three alternatives together would cost a tiny case for extending the tunnel across the Colne valley, fraction of what it is proposed HS2 will cost and would which would solve so many of the problems in my area? be infinitely more useful. Indeed, the freight line would We must literally bury HS2 and protect the area, and if pay for itself. we do not, I am afraid that I cannot support HS2 in the I will leave my case there. I would love to speak for future. longer; I can speak for another two hours unaided, if you wish, Mr Betts, but I have probably said enough. 3.44 pm Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): I will not aid the hon. congratulate the right hon. Member for Chesham and Gentleman in that course. Amersham (Mrs Gillan) on securing the debate. She I ask the hon. Gentleman—Nick Hurd—just to keep has been a doughty opponent of High Speed 2 throughout his remarks to two minutes. I am sorry, but the Minister this Parliament, and while we have found ourselves on needs to have time to reply to the debate. opposite sides of that argument, the tone of these debates has been constructive. I hope to continue in that spirit today. 3.41 pm HS2 has been improved through this House’s scrutiny, Mr Nick Hurd (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con): and I am sure that process will continue after the I shall do my very best, Mr Betts. election. I speak in this debate in support of HS2. The I wholly endorse the view that we need more evidence project was first announced under the last Labour and less assertion when considering the case for HS2. Government, and, if anything, the case for HS2 has Like others, I come to bury HS2, not to praise it. My grown stronger since then. Record passenger growth personal opposition to the current HS2 plans is based has continued. Data from the Office of Rail Regulation absolutely on the impact that HS2 will have on my have recently shown that there were 430 million journeys constituency. The Minister is well aware of that impact. between October and December last year, an increase of He is a good man. He has been good enough to come almost 7% compared with the same quarter in 2013. and see for himself that the disruption to thousands of That growth has continued through periods of disruption residents in Ickenham, Harefield and west Ruislip will and even through a recession. be immense, and these are places where people choose As a consequence, the railways are reaching the limits to live because of their relative tranquillity and semi-rural of their capacity, and nowhere is that more keenly felt nature. There are no direct benefits to the area from than on the west coast main line, the busiest and perhaps HS2, and yet the future we are being asked to accept is the most complex mixed-use line in Europe. Network one of major construction sites for 10 years, unbearable Rail has warned that its capacity will be exhausted by increases in the movement of heavy goods vehicles on 2024, and as demand continues to grow that day of key artery roads that are already clogged, huge soil reckoning could come even sooner. dumps, a viaduct across the stunning Colne valley, We cannot forget the money that has already been electricity feeder stations, and the risk of losing Hillingdon invested in the line, whether for electrification, the ingenuity Outdoor Activity Centre, which is known locally as of tilting trains or the ill-fated and hugely disruptive HOAC and which is a superb facility enjoyed by 20,000 £9 billion modernisation programme of recent years. young people a year. Just a few years on, we have already exhausted all the I could go on but beneath those headlines is a dense additional capacity that that investment brought us and thicket of problems, concerns and unanswered questions, we are still no nearer to achieving speeds above 125 mph and HS2 still does not have an answer to some of the than we were 50 years ago, when British Rail started to biggest problems. The future of HOAC remains uncertain, plan the advanced passenger train. Once the Norton as all relocation options are complicated. As for the Bridge area works are completed, the scope for further chronic problem of traffic on Harefield road and access infrastructure improvements is limited. to the A40, we are just told that something will be The consequences are simple: we cannot continue to worked out with the council at a future date. It is not force every grade of traffic to compete for scarce paths good enough. without impairing passenger services. We have only to 531WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 532WH look at the 2008 timetable changes, which enabled more to Protect Rural England and the Woodland Trust. fast trains to London at the expense of commuter Unlike the current Mayor of London, we do not dismiss services in the west midlands, to see that. I have visited legitimate environmental concerns raised by people who places south of Stoke where services were withdrawn live along the proposed route of HS2, and we want the during the modernisation programme, and residents environmental benefits of HS2 to be enhanced through have been told that the stations cannot be reopened an early commitment to decarbonising the electricity because paths have been reassigned. Although those market. We also want to ensure that the concerns of capacity constraints are most acute on the west coast community groups are looked at, and that disruption is main line, they are also felt on other trunk routes, mitigated wherever possible. including the midland main line and the east coast main line. Mr Grieve: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Will my Lilian Greenwood: I am so sorry, but I am not going hon. Friend give way? to; there is limited time. Lilian Greenwood: I will not give way because I have We need to make sure that we get the route right. I am very limited time; I am sorry. sure that hon. Members of all parties will want to record their gratitude to our colleagues who sit on the phase 1 It is sometimes said that we should just upgrade what hybrid Bill Committee, who have approached their task we have, and of course we need to invest in the existing in a spirit of fairness and determination. As the right network, but the delayed and over-budget Great Western hon. Lady said, we thank the Clerk, Neil Caulfield, and works are showing just how difficult such upgrading the other staff who support the Committee. can be in practice. Opponents of HS2 are rightly concerned about costs and it is vital that taxpayers get the best It has been said before that if HS2 is about capacity value for their investment, so it should be a great south of Birmingham, it is also about connectivity concern to us all that the estimated cost of electrifying north of it. The reality is that many of our cities have the Great Western main line has more than trebled, relatively good links to London, but poor links to each from £540 million in 2011 to more than £1.7 billion other. For example, travelling from Nottingham to Leeds today, and the price is still rising. As Lord Adonis has can take more than two hours at present, but with HS2 said, it is like performing open heart surgery on a it could take as little as 40 minutes. Across the country, Victorian railway. Let there be no mistake: tracks may HS2 holds enormous potential to reinvent the quality have been relayed and signals may have been upgraded of our connections between Birmingham and Manchester, since the Victorian railways were put down, but almost the west and east midlands, the midlands and Yorkshire, all our alignments are inherited from an age of slower and beyond, as high speed services run on to other lines. traction, and almost 200 years later they have given us We will achieve those aims only if HS2 is planned as a compromises. fully integrated component of our existing network. I hope that that objective will be vigorously pursued in It may be asked, “What is the alternative to HS2?” the next Parliament. The truth is that the alternative, if it can be called that, is to prioritise the needs of one passenger against another. It has been a true honour and a privilege to serve in It is to make fast trains compete with commuter and the shadow Transport team. HS2 is an important part freight services, and to spend even greater sums to of the brief and I am glad to have had the opportunity extract diminishing returns from our eccentric and to make what I hope is a final contribution only in this increasingly sclerotic network. To my mind, that is no Parliament in support of this essential project. alternative at all. It would lead to a meaner, less socially accessible and more London-centric railway. We urgently 3.51 pm need new capacity and HS2 is the right project to provide it. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Robert Goodwill): First, I congratulate my right A number of concerns have been raised, both outside hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham and inside this House. Much has been said about the (Mrs Gillan) on securing this debate on HS2, a scheme project’s costs and it is certainly true that there was a that affects a number of constituencies on its line of loss of focus on costs after the election. That is why route, not least Kenilworth and Southam. I note that Labour successfully amended the High Speed Rail my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for (Preparation) Act 2013 to enforce a much tougher Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) is in the scrutiny regime around the project’s budget. I will add Chamber. that after the investment in High Speed 1, in Crossrail, in Thameslink and in Reading station, HS2 is a welcome I am tempted to go as far as to endorse everything commitment to building world-class infrastructure in that the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian the midlands and the north, and not just in London and Greenwood) said. Certainly, a project of this type, the south-east. which is going to be constructed over a number of years, needs wide political support across the spectrum. Helen Jones: Will my hon. Friend give way? Therefore it is good news that we have such a lot of agreement on it. Lilian Greenwood: I will not give way, because I have Of course, there has been considerable interest in such limited time and I want the Minister to be able to HS2 throughout the country. When the scheme was last respond to points. debated in Parliament, on Second Reading in April We cannot and should not ignore environmental 2014, the support for it was clear: 452 votes in favour to concerns, and I am grateful for the briefings and constructive 41 against. It is patently obvious that, with the west dialogue that I have had with groups such as the Campaign coast main line reaching capacity, something needed to 533WH High Speed 225 MARCH 2015 High Speed 2 534WH

[Mr Robert Goodwill] Coast Main Line cannot be ignored and nor should demand be controlled by pricing people off the railway. Alternatives to be done. It is no good saying to those using this service building a new line will themselves be costly and disruptive and that they must grin and bear it while we do nothing, their benefits could be relatively short-lived if demand continues…as forecast. Only a new line can bring the step change in capacity watching our infrastructure grind to a halt and stifling which is required.” economic growth. The Committee agrees with the Government and the Comments have been made about the report published Opposition. yesterday by the Lords’ Economic Affairs Committee. Although I have enormous respect for our colleagues in Demand for long distance rail travel has doubled in the other place, I most heartily disagree with their the past 15 years and without HS2 key rail routes report. The case for HS2 is crystal clear. It will have a connecting London, the midlands and the north will transformational effect, supporting growth in the north soon be overwhelmed, stifling growth in towns and by improving connectivity, freeing up space on our cities across the country. There is also latent demand crowded rail network, promoting regeneration, boosting for more rail freight, for which no paths are currently local skills, generating tens of thousands of jobs and available on the west coast main line. It is crucial helping secure the UK’s future prosperity. that we press ahead with delivering HS2 on time and budget. We remain on track to start construction Joan Walley: Will the Minister give way? in 2017. The Bill is now before the hybrid Bill Committee, ably Mr Grieve: Will my hon. Friend give way? chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms), which has already heard petitions relating Mr Goodwill: I am not going to give way. I have so to about half the route of phase 1. In the nine months it many points to cover in a short time. has sat, it has heard almost twice as many petitions as It is a vital part of the Government’s long-term the Committee on Crossrail heard in its 21 months of economic plan, strongly supported by the northern and sitting. Clearly, there are many petitions yet to hear but midlands cities, alongside our plans for better east-west I am sure the whole House would want to thank my rail links confirmed in the northern transport strategy hon. Friend and his Committee for the seriousness and last week. diligence with which they have gone about their important We have been fully transparent about the project. role of ensuring that the project strikes the right balance HS2 will deliver more than £2 of benefits for every between being sensitive to the needs of affected communities £1 invested, and the economic benefit of the project is and the environment, and the long-term needs of the clear. The strong support of MPs is shared by— country as a whole. Of course, the scheme has undergone particular Mrs Gillan: Will the Minister give way? scrutiny in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham. I take this Mr Goodwill: Not at this time. opportunity to thank her for so assiduously ensuring that her constituents’ voices are heard. I note how much Mrs Gillan: He should give way to me. she has achieved, including helping to move the line of the route further south through the Chilterns area of Mr Goodwill: I will give way this once. outstanding natural beauty in 2011, to avoid an aquifer, and extending the tunnel in her constituency. The scheme Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to the Minister. However, I now boasts over 13 km of tunnel under the Chilterns. do not know how he can say, “We have been fully Indeed, of the overall kilometerage in the Chiltern transparent about the project”, when he has not published area—there is 20.8 km of line there—46% is in bored any of the Major Projects Authority’s reports and we tunnel, 12% in green tunnel and 28% in cutting. Therefore cannot get up-to-date figures on the project. 86% of the route in the AONB is below ground level or in a tunnel. I think my right hon. Friend has made a Mr Goodwill: My right hon. Friend has tabled 355 tremendous contribution to achieving that for her parliamentary questions for the Department on HS2— constituents. This demonstrates both the Government’s commitment to protect areas of outstanding natural Mrs Gillan: Good, I am doing my job. beauty and the hard work of my right hon. Friend. This is an example of how passionate she has been in working Mr Goodwill: And we have given her comprehensive hard for her constituents. replies to those questions. The report that she refers to I will deal with some questions raised. I will not be is, of course, an historical report that is out of date. We able to respond to them all, so I will write to the hon. are working on much more up-to-date information. and right hon. Members I cannot reach. Hon. Members There is strong support from the Transport Committee, mentioned the independence of the residents’commissioner which backs the strategic business case and is confident and the residents’ charter. The commissioner will report that HS2 is the only practical way significantly to increase findings directly to Sir David Higgins and will not be rail capacity. Indeed, the hon. Member for Blackley and part of the standard staff structure. The direct link and Broughton (Graham Stringer) is a member of that the publication of the commissioner’s quarterly report Committee. One of its conclusions in a previous report will ensure that concerns and issues can be aired and states: addressed in a timely manner. The residents’ charter “Having reviewed the revised business case for HS2 and the and residents’ commissioner’s report will be transparent. KPMG report on regional economic benefits we remain convinced That transparency provides the best guarantee of that the project is justified. Capacity constraints on the West independence. 535WH High Speed 2 25 MARCH 2015 536WH

The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) Homelessness (Crisis Report) raised a valid question about the phase 2 spur. We are currently reviewing and assessing those decisions. No decisions have been taken yet on either Crewe or the 4pm spur. Mr (Braintree) (Con): I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, in this Joan Walley: Will the Minister give way? important debate. Homelessness remains a blight on our society. Its causes are complex, but it often happens Mr Goodwill: I only have two minutes to go, so I due to a combination of family breakdown, mental ill really must come to a close. health and substance abuse. Most people do not choose I shall briefly talk about the economic impact and the to be homeless, and society has a responsibility to care fact that we are not taking money away from other for the homeless, who are some of the most vulnerable infrastructure investment. We are investing £73 billion individuals in our society. in transport from 2015-16 to 2020-21 and £57 billion in In recent years, I have had the opportunity to visit, other projects. work with and support two homelessness charities in In terms of the economic case, I draw the House’s my constituency: New Direction and Braintree Foyer. attention to a report in The Times today, which states Both are run by the Salvation Army, which does an that HSBC—I do not think it is our favourite bank at incredible job across the country to provide support for the moment—is going to relocate 1,000 workers to the homeless. I also thank Braintree district council for Birmingham: its swift response in providing housing for those individuals “The bank already has three sites there employing 2,500 people, who suddenly found themselves homeless following the and some of those will move to the new building that it has its tragic fire at the shelter at Ben’s Café in Braintree last eyes on, not yet erected, on a site near Centenary Square in the month. city centre.” There are many excellent homelessness charities up The article mentions the and down the country, including Shelter, Centrepoint, “ever improving transport links” Homeless Link, St Mungo’s, The Passage, Barnado’s in Birmingham, and others. There is also the incredible generosity of the “including the planned HS2 fast trains bolstering a road-rail public at large, who donate time and money to support network crowned by Spaghetti Junction on the M6”, homelessness charities. I spent this past Christmas at which it states has added to its appeal. So this is already Crisis and was especially impressed by the support it having an effect on encouraging employers to come to gave to London’s homeless. I was equally impressed by the area. the thousands of volunteers who gave up their time to help out. Outside of the London Olympics, Crisis has In conclusion, HS2 is about helping Britain to thrive the largest army of volunteers. Once I leave Parliament, and prosper. Although tough decisions have to be taken, I intend to focus my time on better understanding the they will be responsible decisions in the interest of issues surrounding homelessness by working with Crisis making a better, stronger Britain. We understand that a and other homelessness charities with a view to doing scheme of this magnitude cannot be built without having whatever I can to provide support, not only by working some effects on the environment or communities, but as directly with the homeless, but by working with the I have set out here today, we are going to great lengths leading homelessness charities to see how we can work to ensure that the impacts are mitigated wherever practical, with the Government to reduce, if not resolve, the particularly in areas with ancient woodland. I repeat blight of homelessness in our society. our pledge that there will be no net environmental loss. We will make sure that this is done in the most sustainable Having spent some time with Crisis, I think it is way for any major infrastructure ever built. worth outlining to the Minister and Members the state of homelessness in England by reviewing the issues outlined in Crisis’s “The homelessness monitor”, which was released recently. Notwithstanding a number of important initiatives by the Government and the Mayor’s office in London to tackle homelessness, the figures unfortunately continue to rise. Official figures indicate that 111,960 people in England made a homelessness application last year. However, according to recent research by Crisis and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, the real figures are considerably larger—280,000 individuals approached their local authorities last year seeking homelessness assistance. Homelessness prevention activity alone constituted some 228,000 cases in 2013-14, which was 12% higher than in the previous year and 38% up on 2009-10. The ending of an assured shorthold tenancy is now the leading cause of homelessness, accounting for 29% of cases. That is most pertinent in London, where it accounts for 38% of cases. The number of people rough sleeping has also risen. In London alone, 6,508 people slept rough at some point during 2013-14. That figure has doubled over the past six years. English street count 537WH Homelessness (Crisis Report)25 MARCH 2015 Homelessness (Crisis Report) 538WH

[Mr Brooks Newmark] 175 voluntary sector projects for single homeless people. The fund also supported the national roll-out of the figures for 2014-15 were 2,744, which is a 14% rise on “No Second Night Out” initiative. Indeed, “No Second the year before and a 55% increase over the past four Night Out” has been successful in supporting many new years. rough sleepers in moving off the streets. Some 67% of the rough sleepers worked with were taken off the Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I streets after the first night that they were found to be congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate on sleeping rough, and the majority of them did not return an important topic. It may surprise him to learn that to the streets once helped. Cornwall is second only to London in the number of Furthermore, the Department for Communities and people rough sleeping and in the number of people Local Government introduced the gold standard living without homes. Does he agree that we should programme, which is a set of best practice principles for praise the Government for how they changed the rough local authorities to sign up to, designed to drive sleeper count? I have been involved with homelessness improvements in housing options services. DCLG also charities for a great deal of my life, and I saw that the invested £13 million in the Crisis private rented access old system under the previous Government precluded scheme. Since the creation of the scheme, 153 voluntary people from having an accurate measure of the number sector-led projects have helped 9,320 vulnerable people of people rough sleeping. At least we now have a much into accommodation, with more than 90% maintaining better handle on and understanding of the numbers. tenancies for at least six months. Much to their credit, That will enable us to make appropriate resources available, the Government changed the methodology used for so that local authorities and others can help those local authority rough sleeping counts to make them people into homes. more accurate in tracking annual trends, which I believe Mr Newmark: My hon. Friend makes a good point. is the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Truro Later in my speech, I will come on to some of the good and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) was making. The Greater initiatives by the Government and the Mayor’s office to London authority and the Government have invested address homelessness, but first I will outline the numbers, £5 million in the world’s first homelessness social impact and unfortunately the reality is that the numbers are bond, which helped to deliver better outcomes for 831 of rising. London’s most entrenched rough sleepers. “The homelessness monitor” noted that there has I praise the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, and been a continued growth in returner rough sleepers in his team at City hall for their work on tackling rough London, and that is a matter of concern. One possible sleeping in the capital. The Mayor’s rough sleeping factor in that is the cuts that many local authorities have group, which includes local authorities, DCLG, the made to their Supporting People budgets. Those cuts Home Office, charities and the police, leads on and mean that people who leave the street do not get the co-ordinates the wide-ranging work to tackle rough support they need to sustain accommodation in the sleeping throughout our capital. The Mayor invests long term. about £9 million in rough sleeping services every year. Turning to some of the key causes of homelessness, Launched in April 2011, the flagship “No Second Night people become and stay homeless for a whole range of Out” service has helped more than 6,000 new rough complex and overlapping reasons. Solving homelessness sleepers. Around three out of every four rough sleepers is about much more than putting a roof over people’s now spend only one night outside. The Chancellor and heads. Anyone can become homeless, but certain individual Mayor recently announced that £5 million will be made factors make it more likely, including relationship available to “No Second Night Out”, putting the initiative breakdown, leaving care, substance abuse and physical on a more permanent footing. and mental health problems. A recent report for Crisis However, support for single homeless people remains on the experience of single homeless people found that a challenge. Single homeless people who are not considered almost half of them had experienced mental ill health, to be in priority need for housing can be turned away drug dependency, or alcohol dependency, or had served when they approach their council, with little help and a prison sentence. no solution to their housing needs. Single homeless Structural factors also play a major role. The continued people should be given advice and assistance, but Crisis’s shortage of housing and the ongoing effects of the experience and research shows that, too often, that does economic recession are major drivers of homelessness. not happen. The welfare and housing systems have traditionally Crisis recently conducted a mystery shopping exercise, acted as a buffer between unemployment, poverty and in which eight formerly homeless people visited 16 local homelessness. Government reforms, particularly cuts to authorities to examine the quality of advice and assistance housing benefit, are eroding that safety net. In particular, that they provide to single homeless people. In well over housing benefit has been cut by around £7 billion. Also, half the 87 visits, the help offered was inadequate. In housing supply has not kept pace with demand for 29 cases, they were simply turned away without any help many decades. In total, almost 137,000 new houses were or the opportunity to speak to a housing adviser, despite supplied in 2013-14—well below the estimated 232,000 the mystery shoppers portraying individuals in very required to keep up with demand. More and more vulnerable situations, including someone who was forced people rely on housing benefit to pay their rent. Between to sleep rough after losing their job, a young person 2008-09 and 2013-14, the proportion of renters in work thrown out of the family home, a victim of domestic and claiming housing benefit doubled from 7% to 14%. violence and a person with learning difficulties. Notwithstanding a very tough economic climate, the Crisis wants all political parties to make a manifesto Government, much to their credit, have invested £20 million commitment to reviewing the support given to single in the homelessness transition fund, which supports homeless people, so that no one is forced to sleep rough 539WH Homelessness (Crisis Report)25 MARCH 2015 Homelessness (Crisis Report) 540WH and all homeless people get the help that they need. I and physical health problems, a history of domestic draw the Minster’s attention to the St Mungo’s Broadway violence and poor literacy and IT skills—that make it manifesto for the 2015 general election, which identifies harder for them to meet their work-related conditions. many of the key problems surrounding homelessness From November 2012 to March 2014, 13% of sanction and the priorities for the next Government to address decisions were overturned, which suggests that a large regarding homelessness. number of people are being sanctioned incorrectly. That must be addressed, and work should be undertaken Sarah Newton: My hon. Friend is being generous in to ensure that the right decisions are made first time. giving way a second time. Is he aware of the Children’s Finally, there must be a significant increase in the Society’s work in this area? The Children’s Society looks number of genuinely affordable homes being supplied after vulnerable 16 and 17-year-olds. It has told me that each year. Crisis is a core member of the Homes for more than half the youngsters in that vulnerable age Britain coalition, which is calling on all political parties group who go along to local authorities are rejected. to commit to ending the housing crisis within a generation They are not properly assessed or given support, and and publishing a plan laying out how they will do so, some are labelled as intentionally homeless. In addition within a year of taking office. to the excellent work done by Crisis, the Children’s I end by thanking Crisis again for all the work that it Society’s work draws us to conclude that there is a does towards ending the blight of homelessness in our severe need for a proper review in the next Parliament of society.The crisis of homelessness is not just for Christmas; what local authorities are doing to implement their it is a problem that must be addressed 24/7, 365 days a statutory responsibilities to conduct proper assessments. year. When I leave the House at the end of the week, I look forward to beginning a new chapter in my life, Mr Newmark: Again, my hon. Friend makes an excellent working with Crisis and other homelessness charities to point. Along with many homelessness charities, the try to tackle this blight on our society once and for all. Children’s Society has done a lot of work focused on young people. That 16-to-24 age bracket seems to feel 4.17 pm the brunt of homelessness. They are the people who are not served enough. With a little more focus on and TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities support for that age range, I hope that the next Government and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): It is a pleasure to will commit the resources necessary to address the serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I am grateful problem. to my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) for securing this debate on such an important issue. I Beyond the issue of single-person homelessness, the want to recognise his work, as well as that of my hon. Government must support individuals with complex Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah and multiple needs. There needs to be an increase in the Newton), in support of local charities. Their contribution number and type of health services—including mental to the debate raises the profile of homelessness and health and drug and alcohol services—available to homeless ensures that it remains in the public’s consciousness. It people at hostels and day centres. Tackling issues such is important to the Government, and tackling homelessness as drug and alcohol use requires an holistic approach and rough sleeping remains a key priority for us. At the that considers the specific needs of homeless people. As beginning of this Parliament, we made available some well as treating addiction, recovery services should provide £500 million. As a direct consequence of that contribution help with housing—stable accommodation is vital for to tackling homelessness, we managed to prevent some treatment and recovery—skills and work. 700,000 people from becoming homeless. On welfare reform, housing benefit acts as a vital There is no doubt that being homeless affects every safety net to keep people who fall on hard times in their aspect of a person’s life. No one should be in such a homes. However, cuts to housing benefit have, unfortunately, frightening situation, especially not some of society’s been a contributory factor to recent increases in most vulnerable people. Quite often, individual life homelessness. As my hon. Friend said, there are particular circumstances create the situation, so it is important problems for younger adults, who are limited to receiving that the Government put in place prevention measures the shared accommodation rate of housing benefit. The and attempt to help such individuals and mitigate the rate has always been calculated in such a way that it situation. does not reflect the real cost of tenanting a shared A housing crisis could happen to anyone at any time. property. Although the Government’s intention is that The lucky ones have the resilience to cope with it and, the lowest 30% of the private rented market should be perhaps, the resources to get back on their feet. However, available to people on housing benefit, research by that is of course not always the case. Some vulnerable Crisis showed that as little as 2% of shared accommodation people struggle to find their way out and become trapped was actually available and affordable to benefit recipients. in the cycle of homelessness. As we have seen today, the The calculation of the shared accommodation rate should consequences can be severe. I know that both my hon. be reviewed to ensure that it meets the real cost of Friends have dealt with cases as Members of Parliament renting shared accommodation and does not leave young and sought to help. I appreciate that. Every MP will adults at risk of homelessness. have similar experience. Homelessness is not a partisan Furthermore, there are indications that the current issue, and I would appreciate a cross-Government response sanctions regime is not working to support more vulnerable to put in place the right resources to address these people into work. Instead, sanctions are increasing vulnerable people’s needs. people’s risk of becoming homeless, leaving them struggling with debt and without enough money for food, rent or Sarah Newton: The Minister is right to talk about heating. Sanctions disproportionately affect homeless vulnerable people, young ones in particular, and to say people, with many facing obstacles—including mental that cross-governmental work is required. In the next 541WH Homelessness (Crisis Report)25 MARCH 2015 Homelessness (Crisis Report) 542WH

[Sarah Newton] Another vulnerable group that we wanted to help were those suffering from domestic violence. A £10 million Parliament further changes to housing benefit will be package was initiated for them by the Prime Minister, considered, especially on shared occupancy. Does he who wanted to intervene to ensure that we had sufficient agree that just as we are exempting care leavers, because capacity to stop refuges closing, and adequate local we understand their particular vulnerability, we should authority provision to protect vulnerable victims of also consider exempting young 16, 17 or 18-year-olds domestic abuse and their families. Some 148 areas across who present to local authorities as homeless, so that they England will benefit from that resource, which will be have the best chance of getting supported accommodation rolled out over the next two years. and the necessary support to get themselves back on their own two feet and participating fully in society? Mr Newmark: With violence and abuse, one of the issues for many young people, unfortunately, is that Kris Hopkins: There has been great debate about they are forced to return to the area where they are from some of the challenges we face on the benefits bill, and in order to get housing, even though that is the very a future Government will deal with that, whichever environment in which they suffered the abuse. It would party comes to power. My hon. Friend and I, and be good if the Government had a little more flexibility, others, will make a powerful case on the grounds that in particular when dealing with young people subjected she has just mentioned. to a violent upbringing. The authorities should not have For those vulnerable people, the services provided by to say to them, “The only place you can get your local authorities and voluntary sector partners are a housing is back where you suffered abuse.” lifeline. I recognise the hard work and dedication of so many people, for whom this is not just a job; it is a Kris Hopkins: Our local authorities have an obligation vocation. I have been to see individuals who give an to ensure that such children, very young people in enormous amount of time to provide support and care particular, are safe. My hon. Friend is right: they should to those vulnerable people. not be placed back where they might be vulnerable. He Housing supply is an important factor, and I reassure makes a good point, and I am sure that over the coming colleagues that that is another key priority. We should weeks and months he will continue to make the case, be proud of what we have done to deliver some 217,000 and that he will shape policy. affordable homes in England since April 2010. That As the Minister with responsibility for homelessness, includes £19.5 billion of public and private investment I believe that one area that was neglected for many through our affordable homes programme, which will years was single homelessness and rough sleeping. We deliver 170,000 new homes by the end of March this should be proud of what we have done about rough year, in a few days’ time. Over the next five years sleepers through, for example, “No Second Night Out”, another £38 billion of public and private investment and to ensure that the public are involved. The public will provide a further 275,000 new affordable homes want to participate, and we have given them some of the between 2015 and 2020. Over the next Parliament, we mechanisms necessary to do so. They should be proud will therefore build more new affordable homes than of their contribution and the amount of it. during any equivalent period in the past 20 years. We should be proud that we have sought to ensure such provision. A lot remains to be done, but bearing in Mr Newmark: I appreciate that time is running out, mind the economic circumstances, it is important that and all the responses that the Minister is giving. For a we have made that commitment. young male between 16 and 24, it is particularly difficult to get any form of housing. That is a challenge, and I will say a few words about statutory and youth although I understand why it is challenging, we need to homelessness before coming on to Crisis, which my address that. If we do not find support and housing for hon. Friend the Member for Braintree discussed. Despite that group, it might unfortunately lead to greater problems the difficult economic circumstances, statutory homelessness further along in their lives. is significantly lower than it was during its peak period under the previous Government. I do not want to paint an over-rosy picture—we should be realistic about where Kris Hopkins: I only have a few minutes left, so I will we are—but the Government have maintained the strong pick up on a couple of issues, the first of which is about safety net, protected in law, to ensure that families and breaking the cycle that single homeless people find vulnerable people have a roof over their head. The themselves in. How do we get them into employment, if Government have therefore increased investment in that is possible? How do we give them a stable home to homelessness services over the lifetime of the Parliament, build their lives on? including the £500 million I mentioned. One of our interventions has been to work with We have done much to support homeless people. Crisis, which my hon. Friend has mentioned several Recently I addressed and listened to members of the times. We provided some £14 million of funding to YouthHomeless Parliament, who met here in Westminster. Crisis to enable it to run a project providing access to Many spoke with passion about their circumstances. the private rented sector, which has been a real success. Such a dialogue between users of our services, charities The idea is to help some 10,000 single homeless people and Members of Parliament can shape the services. As to access and sustain privately rented accommodation a direct consequence of engagement that I have had, a by 2016. We know that 90% sustain such accommodation new £15 million fair chance fund will affect the lives of for at least six months. It is about giving continuity to some 1,600 homeless and NEET—those not in education, those individuals. It is important that we get provision employment or training—18 to 25-year-olds. It is about right, and that we give those people who have been targeting money at specific groups. trapped in a cycle the opportunity to get themselves 543WH Homelessness (Crisis Report) 25 MARCH 2015 544WH away from abuse, drugs and alcohol, putting them in a Princess Royal University Hospital safe environment so that they can build their lives again with support. 4.29 pm Only a minute or so is left, so I want to put on record my thanks to individuals in the Department for Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): I am Communities and Local Government. We should not grateful both to you, Mr Betts, and to the Minister for ignore the fact that in the DCLG we have a huge wealth agreeing to my proposition that I speak for 10 minutes of knowledge—and it is not isolated knowledge that and my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East simply sits inside the Department; it is about outreach (Heidi Alexander), who is equally concerned about and understanding the complex issues associated with these matters, may speak for five minutes; the Minister rough sleeping and homelessness. The Department can will have the prerogative of the usual arrangements for be extremely proud. ministerial responses. We should also recognise what local authorities, including The reason I have raised this matter is that in south-east the Greater London authority, do. Westminster’s Councillor London generally and in Lewisham in particular we Robathan has been leading on homelessness and, bearing have been around this course before, and know exactly in mind the complex issues in the borough, she should where it wound up then. I will be candid from the off: I be applauded, as should Richard Blakeway at the GLA, am deeply suspicious of the whole process currently who has been leading on the issue for some time. We being embarked upon by Monitor and of the involvement should also say, however, that some authorities are not of the Princess Royal university hospital at Orpington getting it right. I look to the GLA and other strong and King’s College hospital trust. I hope the Minister local authorities to offer leadership and direction to the will be able to provide me with some assurances that weaker authorities that have not always picked up their will assuage my fears about this matter. responsibilities. I will explain why. On Tuesday 24 July 2012—hardly I am sure that the Select Committee on Communities a day that will live in infamy, but one that certainly and Local Government will participate on the issue in remains clear in my mind—we had a meeting at the future. I hope that Members will ensure that homelessness Department of Health with the then Secretary of State, and rough sleeping stay in the public consciousness, and the right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire that the next Government provide an equally responsible (Mr Lansley). My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham response. East was there, as were Members for constituencies in the boroughs of Greenwich and Bromley, including the hon. and gallant Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). I see that the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) is in his place today; I cannot remember whether he was also at the meeting, but other Members certainly were. The meeting concerned the future of the South London Healthcare NHS Trust, which then consisted effectively of the Queen Elizabeth hospital in Woolwich, the Princess Royal university hospital in Orpington, which I chose as the title for the debate today, and Queen Mary’s hospital in Sidcup. Members for constituencies in the boroughs of Bexley, Bromley and Greenwich were quite rightly invited to that meeting. As I said, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East and I were both invited even though Lewisham hospital was not part of the South London Healthcare trust. No one else from south-east London—no Members for constituencies in Lambeth or Southwark— was invited or present, although, strangely enough, they were included in the later stages of the discussions by the current Secretary of State for Health after Mr Matthew Kershaw, the trust’s special administrator, had made an initial report. His report essentially looked at the considerable downgrading—some would say the destruction—of Lewisham hospital as the answer to the problems at the Princess Royal, Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary’s hospitals.

4.33 pm Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

4.45 pm On resuming—

Jim Dowd: I was talking about the fabled meeting in July 2012—two and a half years ago. When the Secretary of State and the trust special administrator said that the 545WH Princess Royal University Hospital25 MARCH 2015 Princess Royal University Hospital 546WH

[Jim Dowd] accept anything other than those proposals, to be illegal. The Secretary of State did not have the powers he answers to the problems of the then South London assumed he had and could not reorganise in the way Healthcare NHS Trust did not lie within its own boundaries, that was suggested. He even had the hubris to try and I knew that what they had in mind was effectively the test it at the Court of Appeal, which found similarly evisceration of Lewisham hospital. For reasons that that that was the case. Thankfully, sense prevailed at have eluded me for decades and more—I used to be on that stage and he left it there, deciding not to waste any the health authority of Lambeth, Southwark and more taxpayers’ money by going to the Supreme Court. Lewisham, and the district health authority for Lewisham However, the Government introduced an amendment and north Southwark—various elements of NHS London to the Bill that became the Care Act 2014, giving them have always had Lewisham hospital in their sights. the power that they thought they originally had to do There was once a plan for there to be only four accident whatever they liked by appointing a trust special and emergency and general hospitals in south-east London: administrator. This is where we come to the key worry St Thomas’, King’s, PRUH and Queen Elizabeth; there about the future of Princess Royal and King’s. It is not was no room for Lewisham. I do not know why the just about the services that are provided there, which are various NHS powers think Lewisham is such an critically important to all the constituents of Members encumbrance. The service it provides to its residents here today, but about the fear that Monitor, using the and the pressure it relieves from the other hospitals powers that the Government put into that Act, will try around south-east London are proof positive of its to engineer another back-door reorganisation involving value. Lewisham hospital. As I say, that was originally declared The morning of 5 March dawned—I was quite delighted illegal, but Lewisham could be dragged into it by other about that, because it was my birthday. At 9.25 am, I means, so the Government can achieve what they originally received an e-mail from Monitor, explaining that, meant to achieve and were stopped from so doing. “Monitor is opening an investigation at King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust to find a lasting solution to long-standing Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): I problems at the Princess Royal University Hospital…The regulator understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. Do I gather is concerned that some patients are waiting too long for A&E that his principal concern is the impact on Lewisham, treatment”— and not the fact that Monitor is looking at accepted nothing unusual there. Not one of the hospitals in issues at the Princess Royal and King’s? From his point south-east London—not St Thomas’, over the river, not of view, it is the Lewisham dimension, rather than what PRUH, not Queen Elizabeth, not Lewisham, not King’s—is it is necessary to do at the Princess Royal. Am I right in currently meeting the 95% targets for seeing attendances that? at A and E, so that is not surprising. The e-mail went on to say, Jim Dowd: I broadly agree with the hon. Gentleman’s “and routine operations…the trust is predicting a deficit of more point. Clearly, financial management is an important than £40m this financial year. This deterioration in its operational part of running the NHS. Everybody knows that, whether and financial performance follows the unexpected costs of making it is in our part of south-east London or more broadly. urgent improvements to the quality of care at the PRUH.” Well, Princess Royal was taken over by King’s College Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I totally agree with hospital as a consequence of the trust special administrator’s everything that the hon. Gentleman has said. My worry recommendations, and that is the problem it has run is that the Secretary of State negated the bill. It was into. wiped clean, and £44 million is a huge amount of When the trust special administrator was appointed, money in the very short time that King’s has apparently the Secretary of State said in a statement to the House: been mismanaging the PRUH. “The trust is losing well over £1 million of taxpayers’ money a week, which means that vital resources are being diverted from Jim Dowd: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. other parts of the NHS.”—[Official Report, 29 October 2012; I do not think that would be King’s view. I hold no Vol. 552, c. 3WS.] particular brief for King’s college hospital, other than The difference between the £1 million a week then and the fact that I had a heart bypass there a few years ago, the predicted £40 million a year at PRUH alone now so I owe them my life. However, beyond that, I have no clearly demonstrates that the trust’s special administration particular indebtedness to them. I know that there is a process did not address the right problems. Clearly, the strong feeling that it was misled about what taking on problem was predominantly at Princess Royal. the PRUH would actually mean, and the operational and financial consequences. Queen Elizabeth is now part of a very successful partnership with University hospital Lewisham, and it is doing quite well. It is not without difficulties, but that Bob Stewart: I accept that point. is the case for any organisations that come together under difficult circumstances. However, it is making Jim Dowd: That is very gracious—characteristically progress in clinical and financial affairs, and is well on so—of the hon. Gentleman. I have four points to make the way to building a solid and reliable NHS entity in briefly: three are questions, and I would also like an our part of south-east London. That demonstrates that assurance from the Minister. the entire TSA process was substantially illegal, because First, I would like an indication about the time scale. as we know, the High Court—and subsequently the How long will Monitor take to report and what is the Court of Appeal—found the trust special administrator’s process following the report? Who will get to review it recommendation with regard to Lewisham hospital, and how will it be taken beyond that? Secondly, what and the current Secretary of State’s stubborn refusal to are the requirements/benefits and the consequences of 547WH Princess Royal University Hospital25 MARCH 2015 Princess Royal University Hospital 548WH what Monitor and the letter I received from King’s later are, our full accident and emergency and maternity that day—5 March—say, which is that the legal powers departments are essential local services that we cannot that Monitor possesses are needed to underpin the do without. I am not saying that everything is perfect, changes that are necessary to King’s foundation trust but when there are such huge pressures on the system, and the PRUH? Thirdly, how much consultation will such as those we saw in the winter, my constituents are there be with other providers and commissioners across right when they say to me, “Just think how much worse south-east London outside King’s College Hospital NHS it would have been if they had closed Lewisham.” Foundation Trust? Finally, I want an absolute guarantee There are enormous pressures on London hospitals, that University hospital Lewisham and Queen Elizabeth and the situation is getting worse. At the PRUH, according hospital Woolwich, now the Lewisham and Greenwich to the chief executive’s January board report, one in trust, will not be adversely affected by any decisions four people who attended the A and E there in December that Monitor makes. were not seen within four hours. The latest weekly figures for both the PRUH and Lewisham hospital 4.54 pm show a much lower percentage of patients seen within Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I am very four hours than this time three years ago. We know that grateful for the opportunity to make a short contribution the PRUH is heavily reliant on nursing agency staff today, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member because of recruitment difficulties. That has resulted in for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) on securing an overspend on its staffing budget. I could list other the debate. I also thank him for sharing his time with problems, but time is short. me so that I can put on record my concerns about the Suffice it to say, the system is under increasing pressure, challenges facing the Princess Royal and other hospitals and that has happened on this Government’s watch. in south-east London. When I first stood to be a Member of Parliament five When I first learnt about the Monitor investigation years ago, the NHS hardly ever came up on the doorstep. into the PRUH a few weeks ago, I was worried, like my It now comes up time and again. When I get an e-mail hon. Friend, that we might be witnessing the start of from a constituent telling me about their elderly neighbour another process that would end up with Ministers or being left waiting hours for an ambulance to turn up, NHS officials wanting to close Lewisham’s full A and waiting hours on a trolley to be seen in A and E and E. I was worried because, as he has said, we have been then waiting hours to be given a bed, I know that here before. Problems in a neighbouring hospital trust, something is seriously wrong with our health service. of which the PRUH was then a part, resulted in NHS Will the Minister give us her honest assessment of the bureaucrats casting around, on the look-out for ways to state of hospital services in south-east London? Will save money. she set out exactly what her Government are doing to It is understandable that my constituents might be resolve the problems and give us categorical reassurance suspicious about the latest investigation, given their that the latest investigation into the Princess Royal experience a few years ago with the trust special hospital is not just another attempt to come after services administration process, which, as we all know, had at its in Lewisham? heart an ill-judged and illegal attempt by the Government to close services at Lewisham in order to sort out 4.59 pm problems at the PRUH and the Queen Elizabeth hospital. The Minister may tell us today that this process is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health entirely different, but it would be helpful if she could set (Jane Ellison): I say now to colleagues who understandably out exactly what the process is limited to, the time scale are concerned about local health services and have of the process and what change could come about as a rightly raised concerns on behalf of their constituents result of the investigation. Is it about giving King’s and that if I cannot cover some of their questions in the next the PRUH more money to adequately provide the services 12 minutes, I will undertake to write to them in the that are needed? Is it about changing leadership at the remaining days of this Parliament, or to ask someone hospital or providing specific types of support? When else to write to them, so that we can try to give them the investigation is concluded, how will local people some reassurance. know what has been proposed? Will we, as local Members I congratulate the hon. Member for Lewisham West of Parliament, get a copy of Monitor’s full report? and Penge (Jim Dowd) on securing the debate and the Could another trust special administration process be hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) on triggered? raising her concerns. Taking my cue from what was said I am keen to get answers to those questions. Although previously, I start by paying tribute to all those working we successfully fought the Government’s proposals for in London’s NHS—in those hon. Members’ constituencies, Lewisham hospital last time around, the Government in mine and right across London—for their dedication have since changed the law. They can now use a rushed and commitment to providing first-class services to and chaotic process to force service closures at any those in their care at a time when we know that the hospital in the country as long as they deem the system is, in places, under pressure. neighbouring hospital trust to be failing. Given that As we have heard, after consulting with the trust, its cynical move by the Government, it is little wonder that commissioners and the London strategic health authority, among my constituents there is considerable anxiety the then Secretary of State instituted the special that the proposals to take services away from Lewisham administration process at South London Healthcare will rear their head again. NHS Trust in July 2012. He was guided in making that I tell the Minister, for the sake of clarity if nothing very difficult decision on the basis of the clinical interests else, that the people of Lewisham are adamant: no of local patients, with advice from the NHS medical matter what the problems in neighbouring hospitals director, Sir Bruce Keogh. The decision was also based 549WH Princess Royal University Hospital25 MARCH 2015 Princess Royal University Hospital 550WH

[Jane Ellison] have not improved in line with expectations. In particular, some long-standing financial and operational performance on the fact that there was no clear option for restoring issues at the hospital have continued post acquisition. the trust’s finances while maintaining the quality of services to patients. It was clear at the time that doing Robert Neill: May I say this on behalf of my hon. nothing was not an option. Not resolving the issues at Friend the Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson), the trust would have carried a high degree of risk. It the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, who cannot be at would have meant that the trust would not meet the the debate? He and I would want to put on the record London-wide clinical quality standards and that £1 million the fact that there have been areas of improvement a week would continue to be diverted from front-line at the Princess Royal and at Orpington, particularly in patient care into funding an unsustainable deficit. terms of patient experience scores, which have picked The trust special administrator looked extensively at up considerably. On the point that my hon. Friend the whether there was an option within South London Minister just mentioned, we are especially concerned at Healthcare NHS Trust to solve the problem. He invited the prospect that has been raised that the full financial expressions of interest from other people who might picture may not become available to King’s until after run the hospitals in the group, but no one was able to the acquisition. It is very clear—I hope that the Minister come forward with a proposal that would solve the can assure us on this—that the Monitor investigation is problem within the existing footprint of the trust. Indeed, intended once and for all to get to the bottom of, the there were no proposals that would not have involved root of, the financial difficulties that this trust suffers. neighbouring health care economies. May I also say that I welcome the appointment of the The long-standing clinical, operational and financial noble Lord Kerslake as chairman of the King’s trust? problems at South London Healthcare NHS Trust led He will bring considerable credibility and rigour to that the trust special administrator to recommend that Princess process. Royal university hospital be acquired by King’s College Hospital NHS Foundation Trust. The associated hospital Jane Ellison: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. sites in Bromley—Beckenham Beacon and Orpington I will say more about Monitor’s role, but it is very much hospital—were part of that transaction. I must say for in line with what he said and I hope to give him the the record that the transaction agreement was signed by assurance that he seeks. all parties and no information was withheld from any Monitor has been working with King’s, local clinical organisation. commissioning groups, the NHS Trust Development At the time, South London Healthcare NHS Trust Authority and NHS England since the acquisition and was the most financially challenged in the country, with has worked more closely with the trust recently to get a a deficit of £65 million per annum. Repeated local better picture of the challenges that it faces. However, attempts to resolve the financial crisis at the trust had Monitor has decided to take the new, formal action failed. Millions of pounds were spent on paying for because King’s has not been able to tackle its challenges debt rather than improving patient care for the local on its own. Monitor considers that continuing to work community in south-east London. The trust special with the trust through more intensive and formal administrator was clear that long-standing problems at engagement will help to drive the necessary changes. South London Healthcare NHS Trust must not be I want at this point to highlight the fact that following allowed to compromise patient care in the future. That a formal investigation into a suspected licence breach at is why, after careful consideration, the Secretary of a foundation trust, Monitor does not have the power to State accepted his recommendations, including that the direct non-foundation trusts, nor does it have the power PRUH be transferred to King’s. to direct neighbouring foundation trusts unless they The new expanded trust is one of London’s largest themselves are in breach of their licence. The range of and busiest teaching hospitals and plays a key role in actions available to the regulator range from informal the education and training of the next generation of action—for example, requesting further information—to medical, nursing and dental students. King’s has formal enforcement action, including the imposition of acknowledged that it has been facing a number of additional licence conditions. pressures that have had a bearing on its performance. Where appropriate, Monitor seeks to encourage the The challenge of integrating and transforming the whole health economy to work together to reach a performance of the PRUH, combined with a significant locally owned, consensual solution, which is very much increase in emergency in-patient activity, has, as the in line with the NHS “Five YearForward View”. Monitor hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge described, has said that it recognises that King’s has been working adversely affected the trust’s operational and financial hard, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and performance. A key aim of the trust’s five-year strategy Chislehurst (Robert Neill) has said, to improve the is to restore its traditional high levels of performance, quality of care provided at the PRUH. However, through in particular by returning to achieving its emergency its close work with the trust, Monitor has discovered department and referral to treatment waiting time targets. that achieving the necessary financial and operational Monitor has concerns that some patients are waiting turnaround at the PRUH will be a greater challenge too long for A and E treatment and routine operations than was initially anticipated. Therefore, the regulator and that the trust is predicting a deficit of more than has decided to open a formal investigation as part of £40 million in this financial year. The regulator is the regulatory process, which will enable it to use its undertaking its investigation to find a lasting solution legal powers to underpin the changes that the trust to long-standing problems at the PRUH. Monitor is needs to make. The investigation will help Monitor to concerned that the trust’s operational and financial decide what resources and support King’s needs to performance issues post the acquisition of the PRUH enable it to deal with its financial problems and reduce 551WH Princess Royal University Hospital25 MARCH 2015 Princess Royal University Hospital 552WH waiting times for patients. Monitor will announce in what she has said, and I will look at the Official Report due course the outcome of the investigation and whether most carefully. I would be grateful to be copied in on it will take any further action. There is no statutory time any information that is sent to other Members. scale for the investigation, because it depends on the I would like to make another point, out of courtesy, scale of the issues encountered. I am sure that all hon. as much as anything else. The hon. Member for Bromley Members would want those issues to be looked at and Chislehurst welcomed the appointment of the new thoroughly. chair of King’s trust, Lord Kerslake. May I put on record a huge vote of gratitude for Sir George Alberti, Bob Stewart: May I just confirm that that means that who is standing down as the chair of the trust, for the Lewisham hospital will not be touched by Monitor? service that he has given to King’s and the health service Lewisham hospital was a successful hospital before the more generally? last investigation, and it appears to be a successful hospital now. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Jane Ellison: That is entirely appropriate. I detect a desire among Members from all parts of the Chamber Jane Ellison: I have just made clear for the record to work towards a better future for the health economy what Monitor’s powers are and are not. I hope that that in their local areas. At the end of the process, we want gives Members on both sides of the Chamber greater sustainable, excellent services that offer the quality of clarity than they had when we started. Monitor is in the care that we would wish for our constituents. Although process of concluding its investigation. It will announce there is not much time left in this Parliament, I undertake in due course the outcome and whether it will take any to look at the Hansard record of the questions asked by further action. Key findings and any next steps will be both hon. Members, because the topic is so important announced by means of a press notice. Colleagues from for their constituencies. If there is anything I can add to Monitor are here in the House, and I would like to put my remarks by way of clarity or response, I will get that them on notice that I expect—I am sure that they also to them. Monitor has heard me put on the record my expect this—Monitor to engage fully with local Members. desire for Members of Parliament to be kept fully Clearly, we are entering a more tricky period from that involved and engaged with the process once we are point of view, but on the other side of the election I through the small matter of the general election. expect there to be full engagement with local Members, particularly as the solution lies, as I think it will in other I believe that this is the last Westminster Hall sitting health economies that are challenged, in the whole local of this Parliament. In the minute that remains, I would health economy coming together to understand how to like, on behalf of hon. Members who are present and work through the problems. That is laid out in NHS the many hundreds of others who have spoken in and England’s “Five Year Forward View”. attended our second debating Chamber over the course of the Parliament, to thank you, Mr Betts, and, through Heidi Alexander: The Minister talks about further you, all your colleagues who have chaired our debates. I support that may be available to King’s and the PRUH thank all the staff of the House, the Doorkeepers and when Monitor has concluded its investigation. Will she all who have attended and participated in those debates. give some examples of the form that that support may I have apparently clocked up 50 debates while I have take? been a Health Minister, many of them in Westminster Hall. It is apparent to me that Westminster Hall serves Jane Ellison: If it is acceptable to the hon. Lady, I will an important purpose in allowing us to debate important write to her to provide some clarity on that. It might be matters, particularly those of the nature of the subject helpful, for example, for Monitor to give examples from that we have discussed today. On behalf of all Members other investigations of the sorts of things that it undertook of Parliament, I thank all the staff and everyone who and the changes that it requested through the formal supports Westminster Hall in its duties. process. I will write to her with some examples to give her a sense of that. I have sought to give a degree of Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Order. For the last time reassurance to Members, and I hope that I have managed this Parliament, the sitting stands adjourned. to do so. Question put and agreed to.

Jim Dowd: I detect that the Minister has almost concluded her remarks, and I will not have the opportunity 5.12 pm to intervene once she has sat down. I am grateful for Sitting adjourned.

127WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 128WS

achieve a 5% increase in income from the 2014-15 financial Written Statements year; reduce the per capita overhead rate from 2014-15; Wednesday 25 March 2015 ensure the smooth transition of finances and records of NMS activities from NMRO to BIS by the end of December 2015. [HCWS475] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS

National Measurement and Regulation Office TREASURY

The Minister for Business and Enterprise (Matthew Hancock): I have tasked the National Measurement and Environmental Taxes Regulation Office (NMRO) to simplify technical regulation for the benefit of British business. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): I have agreed with the NMRO that their objectives Over the Parliament this Government have introduced for 2015-2016 will be to: reforms to the tax system to make it more competitive, simplify the legislative framework for weights and measures simpler, fairer, and greener. As part of this, in May 2010 and hallmarking to support well-functioning competitive markets, and use our strong international influence to shape Government committed to increasing the proportion of new and existing EU legislation to ensure that burdens on tax revenue accounted for by environmental taxes. UK business are minimised or eliminated and UK weights In 2012, the Government published their definition and measures protected; of environmental taxes which set the baseline for achieving provide the assurance businesses need to understand and that commitment. This statement provides an annual apply legislative requirements and give them confidence that update of the Government’s progress against that their investments in research and development are protected against unfair competition; commitment, using the independent OBR forecasts published alongside the Budget. enforce technical regulations intelligently using the regulators’ code to achieve better outcomes for British businesses; The Government classify environmental taxes as those provide a legal metrology infrastructure to underpin trade that meet the following three principles: measurement and confidence in the market, and certification The tax is explicitly linked to the Government’s environmental services to enable businesses to export their products globally. objectives; and The performance targets I have set the agency are as The primary objective of the tax is to encourage environmentally follows: positive behaviour change; and identify an appropriate methodology to measure the benefit The tax is structured in relation to environmental objectives—for to UK business from simplifying technical regulation including example: the more polluting the behaviour, the greater the guidance and enforcement, and achieve an upwards trend in tax levied. benefit over the next three years; The Government have defined the following as generate a positive 3:1 net contribution to consumers and environmental taxes based on these principles: the environment as well as the low carbon economy, through enforcement team activities; Climate change levy deliver enforcement services to meet the expectations of Aggregates levy Government clients; Landfill tax implement the new legal framework for EU measuring EU emissions trading system (EU ETS) instruments legislation by the target date of April 2016; Carbon reduction commitment energy efficiency scheme support stakeholders by ensuring at least 95% of gas and Carbon price floor electricity metering enquiries are answered within three business days of receipt of all necessary documentation; The OBR forecasts demonstrate that the coalition achieve a satisfaction rating among certification service customers remains on track to achieve its commitment to increase of at least 95% of customers scoring satisfied or above, with the proportion of revenue accounted for by environmental at least 60% scoring ‘very satisfied’; taxes.

Tax 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 2019-20

Climate change levy 0.7 0.7 0.6 1.1 1.5 2.0 2.0 1.9 1.7 1.5 and carbon price floor (£bn) Aggregates levy 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.3 (£bn) Landfill tax (£bn) 1.1 1.1 1.1 1.2 1.1 1.1 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.1 EU ETS (£bn) 0.4 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.3 0.4 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.8 Carbon reduction 0.0 0.0 0.5 0.6 0.6 0.8 0.7 0.6 0.6 0.6 commitment (£bn) Total revenue from 2.5 2.3 2.7 3.5 3.9 4.6 4.5 4.3 4.3 4.3 environmental taxes (£bn) 129WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 130WS

Tax 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 2019-20

Total current receipts 572.5 593.4 601.4 624.1 646.9 667.4 700.9 731.2 764.5 804.3 forecast (£bn) Proportion of total 0.4 0.4 0.5 0.6 0.6 0.7 0.6 0.6 0.6 0.5 tax receipts (£bn)

[HCWS481]

Off-payroll Engagements (UK Export Finance) The National Reform Programme is based heavily on the announcements and forecasts of Budget 2015 and the autumn statement 2014. It is, furthermore, drawn The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (): entirely from information already in the public domain. On 5 March 2015, I published the conclusions of HM The UK’s National Reform Programme will be available Treasury’s second evaluation of Departments’ compliance electronically via HM Treasury’s website after it is sent with the rules governing off-payroll appointments in to the European Commission. central Government. [HCWS487] The evaluation raised a number of concerns regarding implementation of the guidance at UK Export Finance. I stated that I had asked the Permanent Secretary to the COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Treasury to commission the Government Internal Audit Agency to carry out an independent audit of the implementation of the off-payroll guidance at UK Export Contingencies Fund Finance, following which further consideration would be given to the need for any sanction. The independent audit is now complete and has The Minister of State, Department for Communities identified that the off-payroll guidance was not properly and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I should like to implemented at UK Export Finance. As a result I shall make a statement about the Contingencies Fund. be issuing a fine against UK Export Finance of £500,000 Durham housing stock transfer for breaches of the guidance which involve the failure to Durham county council proposes to transfer its housing seek proper assurance regarding the tax arrangements stock of some 18,500 council and 180 leasehold dwellings of a number of individuals. to a new social landlord, known as the County Durham While the vast majority of off-payroll contracts are in Housing Group. The transfer has the support of the place for legitimate reasons, I am committed to ensuring council and council tenants, who have given a positive that the public sector demonstrates the highest standards ballot result. of integrity in this area and that public sector employers To facilitate this transfer, which is still subject to the meet all their tax obligations. The Treasury will continue necessary approvals and consents and which will require to monitor compliance to ensure this is the case. funding support of up to £214,000,000, the Department [HCWS485] is seeking to increase its capital AME budget for 2015-16 by £120,000,000. Parliamentary approval for the 2015-16 funding increase National Reform Programme is being sought in the main supply estimates for the Department for Communities and Local Government. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure will be met The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David principally from a repayable cash advance of £205,000,000 Gauke): Under Council Recommendation 2010/410 of from the Contingencies Fund. 13 July 2010, member states send National Reform Ebbsfleet urban development corporation Programmes each year, which report to the Commission on their structural reforms and plans. At Budget 2014, the Chancellor set out plans for a new urban development corporation to deliver a garden The UK 2015 National Reform Programme reports city settlement of up to 15,000 homes at Ebbsfleet in on actions taken by the UK as a whole, including by the Kent. This is being taken forward in consultation with Government and by the devolved Administrations where local MPs, councils and residents. policy responses are of a devolved competence. Urban development corporations are established by The 2015 National Reform Programme: means of a statutory instrument under section 135 of puts the UK’s structural reforms in the context of deficit the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980. reduction, the 2014 autumn statement and Budget 2015; Our aim is to lay such a statutory instrument later this reports on the broad macroeconomic context; month with a view to establishing the Ebbsfleet urban reports on policies to tackle the six country-specific development corporation in April 2015. recommendations addressed to the UK by the July 2014 Parliamentary approval for additional resources for Council of the European Union on: fiscal consolidation; this new body will be sought in the main supply estimates housing market reforms; youth employment; low-income households, child poverty and child care; access to finance; for the Department for Communities and Local and the national infrastructure plan; Government. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure and sets out the UK’s approach to national monitoring, in estimated at £633,000 will be met by a repayable cash line with the five headline Europe 2020 targets agreed by the advance from the Contingencies Fund. Council of the European Union in June 2010. [HCWS486] 131WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 132WS

Planning Update Brownfield land: increasing support for councils We are clear that brownfield land that is suitable for housing has a vital role to play in meeting the need for The Secretary of State for Communities and Local new homes and have challenged local authorities to Government (Mr ): I would like to update have local development orders in place on more than the House on further steps we are taking to streamline 90% of brownfield land suitable for new homes by 2020. the planning system, protect the environment, support We have agreed funding for those local authorities who economic growth and assist locally led decision making. successfully bid for funding to help deliver 200,000 new Solar energy: protecting the local and global environment homes on brownfield sites across the country. These councils will deliver local development orders for housing Last year, the coalition Government published a on brownfield land which will help to speed up the comprehensive solar photovoltaic strategy setting out delivery of housing on these sites. our ambitions for the technology as an important part Green belt: protecting against inappropriate development of the United Kingdom’s energy mix. In doing so, the strategy underlines the importance of focusing growth The Government continue to attach great importance on domestic and commercial roof space and previously to safeguarding the green belt. The fundamental aim of developed land. green-belt policy is to prevent urban sprawl by keeping land permanently open; the essential characteristics of My Department supported this by consulting on green belts are their openness and their permanence. reforms to permitted development rights which will encourage the take up of much larger scale solar power We remain concerned about harm to the green belt generation (solar photovoltaic) on non-domestic buildings where there is unauthorised development of land in and complement the existing flexibilities for home owners. advance of obtaining planning permission. In such These reforms allow for a twenty-fold increase in the cases, there is no opportunity to appropriately limit or amount of solar that can go onto the roofs of non-domestic mitigate the harm that has already taken place. buildings such as warehouses and offices without having For these reasons, we will be seeking to introduce a to submit a full planning application, subject to strict new evidenced-based planning and recovery policy for safeguards to protect local amenity. The proposals have the green belt to introduce early in the next Parliament been widely welcomed by the solar industry, and the to strengthen protection against unauthorised development. measure will come into force from 15 April. Unauthorised encampments: ensuring fair play in the The national planning policy framework includes planning system strong protections for the natural and historic environment My Department, in conjunction with the Home Office and is quite clear that local councils when considering and Ministry of Justice, is publishing an updated guide development proposals should take into account the for councils, police and crime commissioners and police economic and other benefits of the best and most forces on unauthorised encampments, and the powers versatile agricultural land. Yet, some local communities that public bodies have. We are making very clear that have genuine concerns that when it comes to solar public bodies should not gold-plate human rights and farms insufficient weight has been given to these equality laws and turn a blind eye to breaches of the protections and the benefits of high-quality agricultural rules. The cause of equality is assisted by taking firm land. As the solar strategy noted, public acceptability and fair action against anyone who breaches planning for solar energy is being eroded by the public response rules, and stopping the small number of cases which to large-scale solar farms which have sometimes been undermine community relations and hinder integration. sited insensitively. We are also revoking today the following guidance Meeting our energy goals should not be used to from the last Administration which is now redundant justify the wrong development in the wrong location following previous changes to planning policy and planning and this includes the unnecessary use of high-quality legislation: DCLG, “Local authorities and Gypsies and agricultural land. Protecting the global environment is Travellers: a guide to responsibilities and powers”, May not an excuse to trash the local environment. When we 2007, and DCLG, “Preparing Regional Spatial Strategy published our new planning guidance in support of the reviews on Gypsies and Travellers by regional planning framework, we set out the particular factors relating to bodies”, May 2007. large-scale ground mounted solar photovoltaic farms Parking: helping local shops and preventing congestion that a local council will need to consider. These include making effective use of previously developed land and, This Government are keen to ensure that there is where a proposal involves agricultural land, being quite adequate parking provision both in new residential clear this is necessary and that poorer quality land is to developments and around our town centres and high be used in preference to land of a higher quality. streets. We are encouraged by the impact the guidance is The imposition of maximum parking standards under having but do appreciate the continuing concerns, not the last Administration led to blocked and congested least those raised in this House, about the unjustified streets and pavement parking. Arbitrarily restricting use of high-quality agricultural land. In light of these new off-street parking spaces does not reduce car use, it concerns we want it to be clear that any proposal for a just leads to parking misery. It is for this reason that the solar farm involving the best and most versatile agricultural Government abolished national maximum parking land would need to be justified by the most compelling standards in 2011. The market is best placed to decide if evidence. Of course, planning is a quasi-judicial process, additional parking spaces should be provided. and every application needs to be considered on its However, many councils have embedded the last individual merits, with due process, in light of the Administration’s revoked policies. Following a consultation, relevant material considerations. we are now amending national planning policy to further 133WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 134WS support the provision of car parking spaces. Parking Planning practice guidance on hazardous substances standards are covered in paragraph 39 of the national (“Seveso III”) is being updated to reflect changes to planning policy framework. The following text now new regulations being introduced on 1 June 2015. My needs to be read alongside that paragraph: Department is producing draft guidance to help people “Local Planning authorities should only impose local parking understand and prepare for these changes. The guidance standards for residential and non-residential development where explains planning controls for storage of hazardous there is clear and compelling justification that it is necessary to substances in England, which will streamline the current manage their local road network.” system and bring regulations in line with international Building on the success of our previous guidance to standards. The guidance follows technical consultation help householders rent out underused car parking spaces, last year on the role of land-use planning in preventing we have also updated planning guidance to local authorities major accident hazards involving hazardous substances. to clarify that non-residential car parking space can be Planning practice guidance is also being updated to rented out. This will support the shared economy and explain the changes to the environmental impact assessment increase the provision of competitively priced car parking screening thresholds which will come into effect on spaces. 6 April 2015. The changes will remove unnecessary Planning applications: streamlining the process gold-plating of a European directive, reduce costs for As part of our commitment to streamline the planning local planning authorities and developers and provide application process, we have laid in Parliament a newly more certainty about when an assessment is required. consolidated development management procedure order, The Government are committed to tackling delays to come into force on 15 April. The new order consolidates associated with section 106 planning obligation negotiations. the 15 amendments made to the 2010 order in order to We have today published our response to the “Section 106 simplify and improve the planning process for all users Planning Obligations—speeding up negotiations” of the system. It will also bring into force a number of consultation which supports our view that Government important new measures including; changes to improve should consider further strengthening the legislative the process of statutory consultation and the introduction framework for resolving delays in negotiating these of a new “deemed discharge” of conditions to ensure agreements. Revised guidance will be published alongside that planning conditions are cleared on time so that this. homes and other development granted planning permission can start on site without delay. We have previously revised national policy on section Short-term lets: championing the shared economy 106 thresholds to help small builders and to encourage empty buildings to be brought back into use. Some The Deregulation Bill takes forward our reforms to councils have misinterpreted the written ministerial 1973 legislation which arbitrarily restricts the ability of statement of 28 November 2014, Official Report, column Londoners to let out their homes on a short-term basis. 54WS, as just a change in guidance—to clarify, this was The provisions in the Bill will commence two months a change in national policy and we will be updating the after Royal Assent. online planning guidance/policy website to make this We set out our policy on short-term letting in London crystal clear. We are also publishing guidance tomorrow in a paper published on 9 February. The Bill allows for on the vacant building credit to assist in the delivery of local authorities to request that the Secretary of State the new policy. agrees to targeted localised exemptions from the new flexibility, where there is a strong amenity case to do so We are also to publish guidance on the new social in exceptional circumstances. housing relief rules under the amended community infrastructure levy regulations which will help increase Any application should be very localised—for example, the delivery of affordable housing; on supporting the specific properties or a specific street not for wider provision of dedicated student accommodation to take exemptions. Any local authority should consult with pressure off the private rented sector; on supporting the the public before making an application, and there built to rent sector and increasing institutional investment should be clear evidence of specific harm once the new in new build rented accommodation; on ensuring effective provisions have actually been introduced and operated. pre-application discussions; and improving awareness The Deregulation Bill contains provisions so that the of the new homes bonus—taking forward recommendations flexibility can be withdrawn following a successful from our new homes bonus evaluation. enforcement action against a statutory nuisance. We should be very clear that the broader goal of the policy In response to our commitment made during the is to deregulate, and to put London on a similar footing passage of the Infrastructure Bill, 26 January 2015, as the rest of the country. Official Report, column 644, the Government are also updating planning guidance to make clear that up-to-date Planning guidance: making the planning system more assessments of housing need should not normally need accessible to be updated for a full 12 months, and that untested Alongside the consolidation of national policy through assessments of housing need are inevitably less robust the national planning policy framework, my Department than those which have been subject to examination. has also been working to streamline associated planning guidance and make it more accessible. Change of use: supporting brownfield regeneration Following the 2014 review of the nationally significant To further reduce unnecessary planning regulations, infrastructure planning regime, we are updating guidance we have brought forward new permitted development on the pre-application and examination stages. These rights in line with our “third way”, reducing the number changes clarify aspects of guidance, benefiting users of of development types which are required to go through the regime. the full planning process. 135WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 136WS

We consulted in the technical consultation on planning Housing standards: streamlining the system on a range of measures to support housing, the high New homes need to be high-quality, accessible and streets and growth. We have laid the Town and Country sustainable. To achieve this, the Government have created Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) a new approach for the setting of technical standards Order 2015 to introduce new permitted development for new housing. This rationalises the many differing rights from 15 April 2015. existing standards into a simpler, streamlined system These permitted development rights allow more which will reduce burdens and help bring forward much development to take place without the need for a planning needed new homes. application. Where appropriate, the development may The new system will comprise new additional optional require prior approval, allowing consideration by the building regulations on water and access, and a new local planning authority of specific planning matters. national space standard—hereafter referred to as “the These new measures will benefit businesses and new national technical standards”. This system householders. complements the existing set of building regulations, The changes we are announcing today include: which are mandatory. Supporting mixed and varied high streets by allowing more To implement this new regime, this written ministerial change of use between shops and financial and professional statement sets out the Government’s new national planning services, allowing the change of such uses to restaurants or policy on the setting of technical standards for new leisure use, and allowing retailers to adapt their facilities dwellings. This statement should be taken into account more freely to support click and collect; in applying the national planning policy framework, Increasing housing supply by allowing change of use from and in particular the policies on local standards or some business uses to residential and continuing to allow requirements at paragraphs 95,174, and 177, in both larger, rear domestic extensions; we have also clarified the plan making and decision taking. wording on front extensions following requests by some local authorities. Plan making Supporting growth by allowing commercial filming for longer From the date the Deregulation Bill is given Royal periods, allowing larger capacity solar panels on non-domestic Assent, local planning authorities and qualifying bodies buildings, making permanent larger business extensions, allowing preparing neighbourhood plans should not set in their like-for-like replacements within waste management facilities emerging local plans, neighbourhood plans, or and allowing equipment housings for sewerage undertakers; supplementary planning documents, any additional local Introducing this regulation also meets our red tape challenge technical standards or requirements relating to the commitment to simplify and reduce planning regulation, by construction, internal layout or performance of new consolidating the Town and Country Planning (General dwellings. This includes any policy requiring any level Permitted Development) Order 1995 and its 22 amendments; of the code for sustainable homes to be achieved by new and development; the Government have now withdrawn the Delivering on our commitment in gambling protections and code, aside from the management of legacy cases. Particular controls, we are also introducing a new requirement to standards or requirements for energy performance are enable local consideration of a planning application for any change of use to a betting shop or pay day loan shop. considered later in this statement. The Government will further consider the case for Local planning authorities and qualifying bodies extending the office to residential reforms, which are preparing neighbourhood plans should consider their helping provided more new homes on brownfield land. existing plan policies on technical housing standards or requirements and update them as appropriate, for example Zero-carbon homes: supporting small builders through a partial local plan review, or a full neighbourhood We are committed to implementing the zero-carbon plan replacement in due course. Local planning authorities homes standard in 2016 and in addition to the future may also need to review their local information requirements strengthening of minimum on-site energy performance to ensure that technical detail that is no longer necessary requirements we have introduced in the Infrastructure is not requested to support planning applications. Act 2015 the powers needed to enable off-site carbon The optional new national technical standards should abatement measures (Allowable Solutions) to contribute only be required through any new local plan policies if to achieving the zero-carbon standard. However we they address a clearly evidenced need, and where their recognise that achieving the zero-carbon standard will impact on viability has been considered, in accordance be a challenge for home builders and in particular with the national planning policy framework and planning smaller home builders and so last year we consulted on guidance. Neighbourhood plans should not be used to how an exemption for small sites could operate and we apply the new national technical standards. will publish the Government’s response shortly. For the specific issue of energy performance, local We have decided there will be an exemption for small planning authorities will continue to be able to set and housing sites of 10 units or fewer, which are most apply policies in their local plans which require compliance commonly developed by small-scale home builders and with energy performance standards that exceed the can be more expensive to develop irrespective of the size energy requirements of building regulations until of the builder, from the allowable solutions element of commencement of amendments to the Planning and the zero-carbon homes target. This means that all new Energy Act 2008 in the Deregulation Bill. This is expected homes will be required to meet the strengthened on-site to happen alongside the introduction of zero-carbon energy performance standard but those building on homes policy in late 2016. The Government have stated small sites will not be required to support any further that, from then, the energy performance requirements off-site carbon abatement measures. We will also put in in building regulations will be set at a level equivalent to place legislation to ensure that this exemption is not the (outgoing) code for sustainable homes level 4. Until abused. the amendment is commenced, we would expect local 137WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 138WS planning authorities to take this statement of the Conclusion Government’s intention into account in applying existing This package of measures will help deliver more policies and not set conditions with requirements above homes in a locally led planning system, protect the a code level 4 equivalent. This statement does not environment, provide certainty for local residents and modify the national planning policy framework policy business, and contribute to the Government’s long-term allowing the connection of new housing development economic plan and economic growth. to low-carbon infrastructure such as district heating We will be placing in the Library of the House copies networks. of the documents associated with these announcements. Measures relating to flood resilience and resistance [HCWS488] and external noise will remain a matter to be dealt with through the planning process, in line with the existing national policy and guidance. In cases of very specific DEFENCE and clearly evidenced housing accessibility needs, where individual household requirements are clearly outside the new national technical standards, local planning Armed Forces Pay Review: Medical and Dental Officers authorities may ask for specific requirements outside of the access standard, subject to overall viability considerations. The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): The supplement to the 2015 report of the Armed Forces Decision taking, transition and compliance Pay Review Body (AFPRB) making recommendations From the date the Deregulation Bill is given Royal on the pay of service medical and dental officers has Assent until 30 September 2015: The Government’s been published today. I wish to express my thanks to the policy is that planning permissions should not be granted chairman and members of the review body for their requiring, or subject to conditions requiring, compliance report. with any technical housing standards other than for In line with the Government’s 2013 Budget statement, those areas where authorities have existing policies on which announced that public sector pay awards would access, internal space, or water efficiency. be increased by an average of up to 1% for 2015-16, the AFPRB has recommended an increase of 1% to base Planning permission may still be granted on the basis military salaries for all ranks within the medical and of existing local plan and neighbourhood plan policies dental cadre for 2015-16. In addition, the AFPRB has on access, internal space, and water efficiency, even recommended a 1% increase in general medical practitioner though they may have a degree of conflict with the new and general dental practitioner trainer pay and associate national technical standards. trainer pay, and the retention and expansion of the Where there is an existing plan policy which references Golden Hello scheme for medical officers. the code for sustainable homes, authorities may continue The AFPRB’s recommendations are accepted in full to apply a requirement for a water efficiency standard with implementation effective from 1 April 2015. equivalent to the new national technical standard, or in Copies of the AFPRB supplementary report are the case of energy a standard consistent with the policy available in the Vote Office. set out in the earlier paragraph in this statement, concerning [HCWS483] energy performance.

From 1 October 2015: Existing local plan, neighbourhood Royal Navy Nuclear Reactor Prototype Review plan, and supplementary planning document policies relating to water efficiency, access and internal space should be interpreted by reference to the nearest equivalent The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): new national technical standard. Decision takers should On 6 March 2014, my predecessor announced his decision only require compliance with the new national technical to refuel the nuclear reactor in HMS Vanguard, one of standards where there is a relevant current local plan the UK’s four ballistic missile submarines, during its policy. planned deep maintenance period. This was a prudent Planning policies relating to technical security standards precaution following the discovery of a microscopic for new homes, such as door and window locks, will be breach in the cladding around one of the fuel cells in the unnecessary because all new homes will be subject to prototype reactor plant at our shore test facility at the new mandatory building regulation approved document Dounreay in Scotland. My predecessor also asked the on security (Part Q). Policies relating to the external MOD Chief Scientific Adviser to review again the design and layout of new development, which aim to evidence on which the decision was taken not to prototype reduce crime and disorder, remain unaffected by this the next generation PWR3 reactor, due to be fitted in statement. the Successor ballistic missile submarines. The review was undertaken by three eminent nuclear Where policies relating to technical standards have experts, Professor Robin Grimes, Professor Dame Sue yet to be revised, local planning authorities are advised Ion and Professor Andrew Sherry. I have received the to set out clearly how the existing policies will be review panel’s report and am grateful for the panel’s applied in decision taking in light of this statement. efforts and insights. If, in the light of experience in implementing this The panel concluded that it was a valid decision not policy statement, the Government consider that it is not to prototype PWR3. They also agreed that there was no being accorded sufficient weight by planning authorities, practical course of action that would have enabled a we will consider bringing forward new legislation to prototype facility to be built ahead of the first Successor secure implementation. submarine. 139WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 140WS

The panel have advised that, with no PWR3 shore specific groups of children who face particular issues: test facility, far greater requirements will need to be those who have suffered brain injury; homeless young placed on other elements of the submarine enterprise to people; bereaved children; and lesbian, gay, bisexual provide data, experience and assurance to underpin and transgender young people. safety and availability especially those elements that are Many of these projects will make vital links to schools. unique to the UK. As such, I have agreed to their To support this, we are today also issuing two pieces of recommendation that the Department undertake a nuclear guidance which will help schools to make themselves propulsion capability review to ensure the necessary places where mental health issues can be learned about capability and capacity is in place to sustain these and discussed openly and safely, and where effective requirements. This review will form part of the Department’s early support is given for mental health issues through routine work to ensure that continuous at-sea deterrence high-quality counselling. can be sustained now and in the future. We have funded the Personal, Social and Health The review confirms that the Vulcan Naval Reactor Education (PSHE) Association to produce guidance Test Establishment will not be required to support that will help schools provide age-appropriate teaching reactor core prototyping activity beyond 2015, as set on mental health problems from anxiety and depression out to Parliament on 2 November 2011, Official Record, to eating disorders and self-harm. This will be supplemented column 37WS. It is anticipated that defueling and fuel by specific lesson plans over the coming months so that management activities will continue at the site until schools can use them to plan for teaching from September. 2022. The Vulcan defuel and decommissioning project We are also providing a new blue-print for schools on is assessing detailed options which range from placing counselling services––developed in conjunction with the prototype facilities into care and maintenance— experts in the field––which provides head teachers with while retaining the site’s strategic capabilities—to practical advice on how to secure high-quality school decommissioning the site and returning it to Nuclear based counselling services that meet the needs of those Decommissioning Authority. Initial decisions on the it intends to support. future of the site are expected around 2016. [HCWS482] A list of all the organisations receiving funding through the National Prospectus grants are available online at: http://www.parliament.uk/writtenstatements. [HCWS479] EDUCATION

Voluntary and Community Sector National ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Prospectus Grants

Agriculture and Fisheries Council The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mr Sam Gyimah): I am pleased to announce, together with my colleague, the Under-Secretary of State The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for for Education, Member for Crewe and Nantwich Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I (Mr Timpson), Minister responsible for children and represented the UK at the EU Agriculture and Fisheries families, that today we are publishing the results of the Council on 16 March in Brussels. Rebecca Evans AM National Prospectus grants competition to fund voluntary and Richard Lochhead MSP were also present. organisations working with children and their families. There were only agriculture items on the agenda. After a highly competitive application process we have chosen 94 projects that I believe will have a significant Organic production and labelling of organic products impact on children’s lives. This represents an investment The Council held an orientation debate on the proposal of almost £25 million in 2015-16 across seven key for a regulation on organic production and labelling of priority areas. The money will be spread between organic products. Most member states agreed that good organisations specialising in adoption, children in care, progress had been made. Austria and the Netherlands, early education and child care, family advice and support, however, repeated their calls for the proposal to be mental health, safeguarding and special educational withdrawn, arguing that it would hinder rather than needs and disabilities. The grants are additional to support development of the organic sector. I, along existing Government funding that supports these areas. with a number of other member states, argued for the For the first time we identified mental health as a removal of the requirement for annual physical inspections theme in the National Prospectus. I am very pleased to in favour of a risk-based approach. I also stressed that say that we received a number of high-quality bids the Commission’s proposal to move to an import regime under this theme, and will be funding 17 projects worth based on compliance with EU rules should not impact almost £5 million in total. negatively on developing countries and that a significant transition period should be included. The presidency These projects will help children and young people, confirmed work on the proposal would continue with from the early years through to those making the transition the aim of reaching a Council position in May. to adulthood. We are also continuing to provide funding to the Young Minds helpline for parents worried about Milk Sector: market situation, trends and EU measures the emotional problems, behaviour or mental health of The Council discussed the milk sector focusing on their children. Support will be given in a number of the market situation, trends and EU measures. Poland different ways including face-to-face, peer support, by stressed that its producers were finding the current telephone, online and through apps. They will also help market situation tough and France and Spain repeated 141WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 142WS their request for the Commission to consider stronger Red Tape Challenge crisis management tools. I stressed that further work was needed to identify and develop new markets and urged the Commission to come forward with its feasibility The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for study on dairy country of origin labelling as soon as Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): possible. Commissioner Hogan acknowledged the As part of the Government’s red tape challenge initiative, difficulties in some parts of the sector but expressed DEFRA will complete this Parliament an ambitious optimism about global demand in the future. He also programme of reform to improve and simplify its regulation. said he would consider suggestions for broadening the These reforms will reduce regulatory costs to business scope of the Milk Market Observatory. by around £300 million per year, thus helping to promote growth, while maintaining our high standards of CAP implementation and simplification environmental, animal and plant health protection. Commissioner Hogan opened the session on CAP by In total, 650 legislative reforms will have been made announcing that he would consider extending the 15 May which will reduce the number of regulations in force by deadline by when farmers had to submit their scheme more than 20% compared to May 2010. I am today applications given the administrative demands of the placing a full list of these legislative reforms in the new regime. I supported Italy and other member states Libraries of both Houses. in calling for that extension and I stressed that it should Reforming the amount of guidance that accumulated be a minimum of a month. The Commissioner also over many years has also been an important priority. In confirmed that his services were examining all of the May, DEFRA and its regulator network will have reduced ideas submitted by member states in response to his their guidance by more than 70,000 pages, which is a simplification exercise. Ministers then proceeded to highlight reduction of over 80%. I am placing in the Libraries of a wide range of priorities for change, including the new both Houses the current impact assessment to support greening requirements. I called for more realistic greening this reform. mapping and control regimes and argued that member states’ own interpretations and implementation should All DEFRA’s legislation in force is now accessible to be respected. The presidency confirmed that they would the public via DEFRALex, an online portal on seek to agree Council conclusions on CAP simplification legislation.gov.uk/defralex. This is designed to make at the May Council. legislation more accessible and easier to locate by businesses and the public. International agricultural trade issues [HCWS477] The Commission provided an update on EU agricultural imports and exports and the progress of a range of bilateral and multilateral trade negotiations during a Minister-only lunch session. I agreed with those member HEALTH states who stressed that the EU’s high production standards and system of geographical indications should not be undermined. However, I underlined that global trade Health Services: East of England could boost economic growth across Europe and that significant opportunities were available to the EU, in particular in negotiations with the US and Japan. The Secretary of State for Health (Mr ): AOB: Angora wool and fur from maltreated rabbits and In November 2011, Hinchingbrooke Health Care National furred animals Health Service Trust entered into a franchise management contract with Circle Hinchingbrooke Ltd. Circle The Netherlands highlighted the issue, mainly in Hinchingbrooke Ltd has issued a termination notice to China, of plucking live angora rabbits for wool and the contract, and arrangements have been put in place furred animals being maltreated. I shared their concern for the trust to revert to operating independently again and stated that UK officials would approach our textile with effect from 1 April 2015. and clothing industry to better understand their position. Hinchingbrooke Health Care National Health Service The Commission noted that the World Trade Organisation Trust has always remained an NHS trust with all of the rules currently prevent the EU from imposing its animal buildings and equipment owned by the trust, and all welfare standards on third countries and agreed that a full-time staff apart from some of the executive leadership business to business approach would be best. employed by the NHS. Responsibility for running the AOB: Xylella fastidiosa in southern Italy and risk of trust will return to the NHS as of 1 April. A new board further spread in the EU has been appointed to run the trust, led by Alan Burns as the chair. Commissioner Andriukaitis underlined the seriousness To ensure minimal disruption to services at the trust, of the threat of the Xylella fastidiosa bacteria not only Circle will continue to provide certain procurement for olive trees but also potentially to the wider agriculture services for a limited period to allow for a long-term sector. Italy explained what measures had been taken plan to be put in place. and that the eradication of host plants was now under way. I supported the need for stronger EU emergency As for every provider of NHS services, the priority at measures as well as updating the plant health directive, Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust will continue to provide better protection against all strains, from all to be the provision of safe, high-quality services to countries and on all host plants. patients. To address the concerns raised by the chief inspector of hospitals in the CQC report, the NHS [HCWS476] Trust Development Authority has appointed an 143WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 144WS improvement director as part of the special measures today, we clearly are not in a position to launch a regime now in place at Hinchingbrooke Health Care consultation, on one of the last sitting days of this Trust. Parliament. The trust will be supported to ensure a smooth However, Lord Penrose’s report has now been published. transition to the new arrangements and to ensure continuity It can be found on the inquiry website at: http:// of all services provided by the trust, protecting care for www.penroseinquiry.org.uk. While it will be for the next patients and providing security for trust staff. Government to consider all of Lord Penrose’s findings, [HCWS484] I would hope and fully expect proposals for improving the current complex payment system to be brought forward, with other UK health departments. In the meantime I am pleased to announce that I will Infected Blood be allocating up to an additional one-off £25 million from the Department of Health’s 2015-16 budget allocation to support any transitional arrangements to a different The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): payment system that might be necessary in responding In January 2011, my predecessor, my right hon. Friend fully to Lord Penrose’s recommendations. We intend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Andrew Lansley), this to provide assurances to those affected by these recalled with sadness how what happened during the tragic events that we have heard their concerns and are 1970s and 1980s, when thousands of patients contracted making provision to reform the system. hepatitis C and HIV from NHS blood and blood products, Finally I can formally announce that, in line with our is one of the great tragedies of modern health care. I consistent policy of openness, we are now preparing for would like to say on behalf of this Government how transfer to the National Archive remaining Department sorry we are for what happened, and express my sympathy of Health documents relating to blood safety for the for the pain and grief suffered by many infected people period from 1986 to 1995. These documents, which will and their families. be open for public scrutiny, will be followed by subsequent Since 1988, the Government have established a number tranches of documents covering later years. of schemes to provide financial support to people affected While I recognise that this statement does not immediately by that tragedy. The system has evolved in an ad hoc fulfil the desires of all who campaign on this matter, I and incremental manner, now comprising five infection- hope that it signposts this Government’s positive direction focused schemes that operate according to their own on these matters. individual criteria. In January 2011, this Government [HCWS480] acknowledged the system then had shortcomings and introduced a number of improvements. Despite these improvements, there have been continued criticisms of the system, as reflected in the reports produced earlier INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY this year by my right hon. Friend the Member for STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and by the all-party parliamentary group (APPG) for haemophilia and contaminated blood, and described by hon. Friends IPSA: Estimate 2015-16 and Members across the House during the Backbench Business Committee debate held on 15 January 2015. Mr Charles Walker (Representing the Speaker’s From listening to a range of views on the current Committee for the IPSA): The Speaker’s Committee for system, it is apparent that there might be some people the IPSA is established under the Parliamentary Standards who are experiencing significant ill health which may Act 2009. Under statute it must review IPSA’s estimate result from their infection(s) who feel they are not well before it is laid before the House and decide whether it supported by the existing system. However, it is important is satisfied that the estimate is consistent with the efficient to recognise there are elements of the current system and cost-effective discharge by the IPSA of its functions. which do find favour among the beneficiary community. The challenge for any future Government will be to The Committee has approved IPSA’s draft estimate identify the most appropriate way of targeting financial for 2015-16 without modification, in line with the advice assistance, while ensuring that any system can be responsive provided to it under statute by HM Treasury. to medical advances and is sustainable for Government [HCWS478] in financial terms. I thank both my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and the APPG WORK AND PENSIONS for their reports, both of which we are considering carefully. It is with frustration and sincere regret that our considerations on the design of a future system Relationship Support have been subject to postponement while we awaited publication of Lord Penrose’s final report of his inquiry in Scotland. We had hoped to consult during this Parliament The Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb): We will be on reforming the ex-gratia financial assistance schemes, extending seven contracts with organisations delivering considering, among other options, a system based on relationship support provision and related services. These some form of individual assessment. However, I felt services include preventive support for couples during that it was important to consider fully Lord Penrose’s key transition points in their relationships; targeted report before any such consultation. Given its publication support for parents with complex needs; work to promote 145WS Written Statements25 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 146WS healthy relationships and encourage the take-up of support These contracts will be worth just over £7.2 million services; help for couples experiencing difficulties; training with further funding earmarked to help local authorities for health visitors to recognise and respond to the signs develop strategies to help improve the quality of family of relationship distress; training for relationship support relationships. This will bring total funding for 2015-16 specialists; and policy development work. to just under £8 million. In addition, we will be launching a pilot to test the In addition, we will also be offering a six month inclusion of relationship education in perinatal classes extension to all of the 16 Help and Support for Separated in eight areas of the country. The objectives of this pilot Families Innovation Fund projects, which focus on are to test the effectiveness of this approach in: helping parents going through separation to resolve conflict and work together in the interests of their preparing couples for the impact having a baby will have on children. The extending projects will share in a total of their relationship; £2.5 million which will enable further work with families and the opportunity to gather more data to evaluate the normalising the fact that relationship changes in this period are common; and success of these projects. [HCWS474] providing strategies on how to manage any differences/conflict. 23P Petitions25 MARCH 2015 Petitions 24P

Protection of the wrecks of HMS Cressy, HMS Hogue Petitions and HMS Aboukir The Petition of residents of Gillingham and Rainham, Wednesday 25 March 2015 Declares that the Petitioners believe that the sites of three ships, HMS Cressy, HMS Hogue and HMS Aboukir, lost during the First World War should be protected. PRESENTED PETITIONS The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Petitions presented to the House but not read on the Commons urges the Government to designate these Floor three wrecks under the Protection of Military Remains Act. Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues in the And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Rehman House of Commons Chishti.] The Petition of residents of the Huntingdon constituency, [P001525] Declares that the Petitioners believe that when Parliament makes decisions affecting only the people of England or OBSERVATIONS England and Wales then those decisions should be made only by the Members of Parliament elected to represent England or England and Wales. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons creates fairness in the devolution settlement Rough Close Post Office by ensuring decisions having a separate and distinct The Petition of residents of the constituency of Stone effect on England or England and Wales, are only in Staffordshire, decided by the Members of Parliament elected to represent England or England and Wales. Declares that residents of Meir Heath object to the relocation of the local Rough Close Post Office branch And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by from Grindley Lane to Sandon Road in Meir Heath; Mr Jonathan Djanogly.] further that a number of products and services will not [P001455] be available at the new post office; further that the Petitions in the same terms were also presented by Petitioners will need to find alternative providers to the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole Andrew Percy. carry out the banking, parcel services and travel insurance [P001526]; on demand; further that there are limited parking facilities residents of Carshalton and Wallington [P001492]; at the relocated site which would cause disruption to residents of Bolton West [P001493]; residents, road users and post office delivery; further residents of Stratford-on-Avon [P001494]; that the relocated site would be unsuitable and would residents of Bradford South [P001495]; pose increased difficulties for the elderly, including the residents of Elmet and Rothwell [P001496]; crossing of a major road; further that given the size of residents of North Wiltshire [P001497]; the premises, residents wishing to use Post Office facilities residents of Chelsea and Fulham [P001498]; would need to queue outside; further that the new open residents of Ashford [P001499]; plan serving positions may come with a lack of privacy residents of Arundel and South Downs [P001500]; and security; and further that the Petitioners currently residents of Chichester [P001501]; receive professional services from fully trained post residents of Loughborough [P001502]; office staff with many years’ experience at the existing residents of Hove [P001503]; location. residents of Penrith and the Border [P001504]; The Petitioners therefore request that the House of residents of Torridge and West Devon [P001505]; Commons urges the Department for Business, Innovation residents of South Ribble [P001506]; and Skills to intervene to keep the Rough Close Post residents of Hammersmith [P001507]; Office branch in its existing location on Grindley Lane. residents of Poplar and Limehouse [P001508]; And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by residents of Rochdale [P001509]; SirWilliamCash,OfficialReport,17March2015;Vol.594, residents of Leeds West [P001510]; c.731.] residents of Portsmouth South [P001511]; [P001462] residents of Sutton and Cheam [P001512]; Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, residents of Chesterfield [P001513]; Innovations and Skills: residents of Workington Constituency [P001514]; residents of Bethnal Green and Bow [P001515] The Government note the views of residents who residents of Taunton Deane [P001516]; access Post Office services at Rough Close Post Office. residents of Stockton North [P001517]; The Government note that the provision and location residents of Boston and Skegness [P001518]; of post offices is an operational matter which is the residents of Middlesbrough South and East responsibility of the Post Office. The Government, as Cleveland [P001519]; shareholders, do not play any role or intervene in decisions residents of Pontefract and Castleford [P001520]; relating to individual post office branches. residents of York Central [P001521]; The Government note that the 2010 Spending Review residents of Barrow and Furness [P001522]; contained a clear commitment to modernising the post residents of Holborn and St Pancras [P001523]; office network and safeguarding its future, and that residents of Southampton Itchen [P001524]. Government have allocated £2 billion of funding since 25P Petitions25 MARCH 2015 Petitions 26P

2010 to provide for significant investment across the And the Petitioners remain, etc. [Official Report, post office network. A condition of this funding package 4 March 2015; Vol.593, c.1045.] requires Post Office Ltd to continue to maintain a [P001444] network of at least 11,500 branches, to comply fully with the access criteria, and with no programme of Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: branch closures. Decisions about funding for new treatments and drugs The Government note that, to maintain a service to in England for rarer conditions like Elosulfase alpha the local area, the existing branch is being run on a (Vimizim) for the treatment of Morquio syndrome, are temporary basis by a temporary agent. In such situations made by NHS England in accordance with its statutory the Post Office works hard to identify a suitable long-term duties under the Health and Social Care Act 2012. sustainable solution for future provision of post office NHS England is currently consulting on how it will services to the local area. decide which specialised services and treatments to prioritise. The Government note that when the Post Office has a The consultation, Investing in specialised commissioning, viable proposal for the future provision of services then can be accessed at: www.engage.england.nhs.uk/ it consults on that proposal. The Post Office undertakes consultation/3a67882b. its local public consultation under the terms of a Code Once this consultation concludes on 27 April 2015, of Practice agreed between the Post Office and Citizens NHS England will make a decision as quickly as possible Advice. It is further noted that the Post Office held a on whether to provide funding for Elosulfase alpha. It local public consultation on its proposals regarding has agreed to make this decision prior to the publication Rough Close Post Office, which was open for comment of NICE guidance. from the 3 February to 17 March 2015. NHS England also needs to hold consultations on The Government note that the Post Office’s consultation the specific clinical policy for this individual drug. process focuses on specific and detailed proposals for While this would normally not be started until the relocating the service provision, such as the suitability wider framework for commissioning had been consulted of the new location and ease of access, and that responses on and agreed, in the case of Elosulfase alpha it has to the consultation are carefully considered by the Post agreed to run this specific consultation in parallel with Office before a final decision is reached. The Government the consultation on the wider decision making framework, note that the Post Office is currently considering the in order to accelerate this process. responses received to its consultation before it makes NHS England has also agreed that this consultation any decision. on the clinical policy for Elosulfase alpha will run for The Government note that the Post Office’s proposals the shortest possible period of time that is legally for the relocation of Rough Close Post Office to a permissible: 30 days. nearby Martin McColls store would see longer opening This means that all of the consultations required for hours and Sunday opening, with the majority of Post a decision on this issue should be concluded by the end Office products and services still available, providing of April. However, NHS England will obviously need improved accessibility and enhanced convenience for time to consider all of the responses received before it customers in a modernised retail environment. decides whether to fund this drug––we have urged them to do this as quickly as possible. In light of these developments, we are therefore hopeful that on this accelerated timetable the patients currently HEALTH receiving Elosulfase alpha have every chance of continuity Treatment for Morquio syndrome of treatment, provided the supplier of the drugs (BioMarin) can agree to maintain supply through to NHS England’s The Petition of residents of the Alyn and Deeside decision. NHS England is now in active discussion with constituency, BioMarin over the company’s responsibilities for the Declares that Morquio syndrome (also known as continuing supply of drug to the patients it enrolled in MPS IV) is a rare genetic disease; further that Elosulfase, clinical trials. a drug to treat the syndrome, has recently been approved In the event that NHS England decides that Elosulfase by the European Medicines Agency following positive alpha remains ‘not routinely commissioned’ when it results in the final stages of clinical trials; further that makes a decision (after the end of April), NHS England the drug (in the form of weekly enzyme replacement is still required to fund treatments that have been evaluated treatment) improves sufferers’ energy levels and stamina and recommended by the NICE Highly Specialised and therefore increases their independence, further that Technologies programme within three months of the the effects of the drug are hugely beneficial not only to guidance publication. Final guidance on Elosulfase alpha the individuals who have Morquio syndrome but also to is expected in October 2015. their families; further that funding for the newly licensed The Government take the issue of ensuring rapid enzyme replacement therapy to treat Morquio syndrome access to innovative therapies very seriously, which is is unlikely to be approved due to cost saving; and why they have launched an ‘Innovative Medicines and further that the Petitioners believe that the consequences Medical Technology Review’ of the pathways for the of patients, including children, not receiving this drug development, assessment, and adoption of innovative are unbearable. medicines and medical technology. This review will The Petitioners therefore request that the House of consider how to speed up access for NHS patients to Commons urges the Department of Health to ensure cost-effective new diagnostics, medicines and devices. that individuals who have Morquio syndrome are given The review will examine the pathway from ‘first in free access at home to enzyme replacement therapy for human’ trials, through licensing and health technology the treatment of the syndrome. appraisal, to commissioning and clinical practice. It will 27P Petitions25 MARCH 2015 Petitions 28P set out both short and long-term options for action by further that the Petitioners believe it appropriate to Government and relevant bodies, including NICE, the warn investors and customers of the substantial risk to Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency their money. and NHS England, and mark a major contribution to The Petitioners therefore request that the House of the policy debate. Commons urges the Financial Conduct Authority and the Data Protection Commissioner to investigate Spread Co Limited, Ajay Pabari, Richard Pashley and Matt TREASURY Funnel in relation to the numerous staff complaints that Spread Co has attracted, the claims that Spread Co Spread Co Limited Limited has been involved in questionable financial practices and employment blacklisting and the complaints The Petition of sundry former employees of Spread against the individuals mentioned. Co Limited, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by John Declares that although Spread Co Limited (based in Hemming, Official Report, 15 December 2014; Vol. 589, Northwood Hills) has a heavy online presence it is c. 5P.] actually a small company with fewer than 50 members [P001416] of staff occupying a few rooms above an inexpensive Observations from the Chancellor of the Exchequer: row of shops; further that Spread Co Limited has made losses for most of its history; further that despite its The Government thank the hon. Member for small workforce Spread Co Limited has attracted numerous Birmingham Yardley (John Hemming) for his petition staff complaints and civil claims; further that Spread Co on behalf of former employees of Spread Co Limited. has been making redundancies and has been cost-cutting The Government and all UK authorities take allegations since 2012; further that an Employment Tribunal this of misconduct in financial services firms very seriously. year found that the CEO of Spread Co Limited, Ajay The Financial Conduct Authority is an independent Pabari, had treated a manager, Richard Pashley, unlawfully regulator with responsibility for investigating possible as well as treating a female member of staff unlawfully contraventions of financial services law and regulatory (although the female member of staff did not win her requirements. The Information Commissioner is an constructive dismissal claim as she had resigned prematurely independent regulator with responsibility for investigating against legal advice) and that other members of staff possible contraventions of data protection law. It would had compromised claims successfully; further that there not be appropriate for the Government to seek to have been repeated and multiple claims that Spread Co intervene in the day-to-day operation of independent Limited has been involved in questionable financial regulators or to comment on an individual case. practices and employment blacklisting; further that there Anyone who has specific allegations about misconduct have been repeated complaints about Ajay Pabari, Matt should pass the evidence that they have to the relevant Funnell (the Head of IT) and Richard Pashley; and regulator or other appropriate authorities.

3MC Ministerial Corrections25 MARCH 2015 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

practise cases. Those are all matters for the NMC as an Ministerial Corrections independent body, but new legislation means that nurses can pay fees in instalments, and that fees can reflect Wednesday 25 March 2015 part-time work. [Official Report, 23 March 2015, Vol. 594, c. 405WH.] Letter of correction from Mr Freeman: HEALTH Errors have been identified in the responses I gave to the debate on fees paid by nurses and midwives in Nurses and Midwives: Fees Westminster Hall on 23 March 2015. The following are extracts from the Westminster Hall The correct responses should have been: debate on fees paid by nurses and midwives on 23 March 2015. George Freeman: My point is that it is important to George Freeman: My point is that it is important to understand that the reforms mean that the PSA is understand that the reforms mean that the PSA is funded by the nine regulatory bodies. How the bodies funded by the nine regulatory bodies. How the bodies seek to cover that cost is up to them. In this case, the seek to cover that cost is up to them. In this case, the NMC is proposing not to pass on the cost to its members NMC has decided to apply it equally across all its this year. members. …I have looked at the salary figures, and the average, [Official Report, 23 March 2015, Vol. 594, c. 399WH.] ending March 2014, for nurses, midwives and health visitors—the people we are talking about—is £31,000. …I have looked at the salary figures, and the average, They will get the 1% rise, which is an extra £300. ending March 2014, for nurses, midwives and health visitors—the people we are talking about—is £31,000. …The hon. Member for Blaydon raised several questions, They will get the 1% rise, which is an extra £800. including whether the NMC will review its guidelines [Official Report, 23 March 2015, Vol. 594, c. 401WH.] on fitness to practise, and provide guidance on fitness to practise cases. Those are all matters for the NMC as an …The hon. Member for Blaydon raised several questions, independent body, but new legislation means that nurses including whether the NMC will review its guidelines can pay fees in instalments, and that will help those in on fitness to practise, and provide guidance on fitness to part-time work by spreading the cost of the fee.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 25 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 1413 CABINET OFFICE—continued Building Workers: Shrewsbury ...... 1414 Topical Questions ...... 1420 Civil Service: Job Reductions ...... 1418 Trade Unions ...... 1416 Digital Inclusion ...... 1417 Government Digital Service...... 1415 Public Procurement: Small Businesses...... 1413 PRIME MINISTER ...... 1422 Senior Civil Servants: Accountability...... 1419 Engagements...... 1422 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 25 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 127WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— National Measurement and Regulation Office ...... 127WS continued Red Tape Challenge ...... 142WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 130WS Contingencies Fund ...... 130WS HEALTH...... 142WS Planning Update ...... 131WS Health Services: East of England...... 142WS Infected Blood ...... 143WS DEFENCE...... 138WS Armed Forces Pay Review: Medical and Dental INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Officers ...... 138WS STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 144WS Royal Navy Nuclear Reactor Prototype Review..... 138WS IPSA: Estimate 2015-16 ...... 144WS

EDUCATION...... 139WS TREASURY ...... 128WS Voluntary and Community Sector National Environmental Taxes...... 128WS Prospectus Grants...... 139WS National Reform Programme...... 129WS Off-payroll Engagements (UK Export Finance)..... 129WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 140WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 144WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 140WS Relationship Support ...... 144WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 25 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITIONS...... 23P HEALTH...... 25P Eligibility of Members to vote on certain issues Treatment for Morquio syndrome...... 25P in the House of Commons ...... 23P Protection of the wrecks of HMS Cressy, HMS Hogue and HMS Aboukir ...... 24P TREASURY ...... 27P BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 24P Spread Co Limited...... 27P Rough Close Post Office...... 24P MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Wednesday 25 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 3MC HEALTH—continued Nurses and Midwives: Fees...... 3MC Nurses and Midwives: Fees...... 4MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 25 March 2015

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1413] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Protection of Children (Removal of Police Discretion) [Col. 1433] Bill presented, and read the First time

Tax Transparency and International Development [Col. 1434] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Fiona O’Donnell)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Finance (No. 2) Bill [Col. 1437] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Gauke)—agreed to Considered in Committee; not amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism [Col. 1537] Motion—(James Brokenshire)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 1541]

Social Care and Military Compensation [Col. 1546] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Infrastructure Planning [Col. 1555] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall North Wales Economic Infrastructure [Col. 479WH] Democratic Republic of the Congo (Human Rights) [Col. 502WH] High Speed 2 [Col. 510WH] Homelessness (Crisis Report) [Col. 536WH] Princess Royal University Hospital [Col. 544WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 127WS]

Petitions [Col. 23P] Observations

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 3MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]