the boisi center interviews no. 100: march 11, 2015

antony lerman, author of The Making and Unmaking of a Zionist, and Bos- ton College political science professor and Boisi Center director alan wolfe sat down with Boisi Center associate director Erik Owens and undergraduate research assistant Evan Goldstein before Lerman’s presentation on a “new paradigm” for Israeli Jewish-Palestinian peace and reconciliation. owens: What is the current state of years ago when it was thought that the movement. They started in the UK, and the Jewish communities in Britain and community was declining so much, have expanded all over the world. To give America, and how are the two different? the question of whether there would be you the size of it: the main event is a Jewish grandchildren was discussed, and gathering around Christmas-New Year, lerman: A good place to start is size, there was a movement of educational when are not otherwise occupied. because there’s obviously a vast discrep- revival—opening up Jewish schools, and Twenty-five hundred people gather at a ancy. There are about 300,000 self-iden- university campus to listen to a myriad tifying Jews in Britain. Most British Jews of lectures and take part in self-study and live in . Jews used to live in all music classes and and anything, kinds of outlying places, such as in South really, that comes within Jewish purview. Wales, in the mining villages, out in the It’s an example that there is a hunger for countryside as well. About 60 percent that kind of thing. of the Jewish population is affiliated with some kind of Jewish organization, There is, at the moment, a lot of concern whether it’s a or a cultural about the question of security and an- association. The main synagogue group ti-Semitism among British Jews. There’s is mainstream Orthodox, called the Unit- a lot of debate about just how serious ed Synagogue. About 60–70 percent of the situation is. There is no doubt that Jews that are affiliated with anti-Jewish incidents have increased. are affiliated with that particular branch. They go up in relation to times of con- Reform Jews make up about 15 or 20 flict in -Palestine. But there is, at percent of British Jews, and the ultra-Or- the moment, a sense of awareness of a thodox—who have become a much more problem, and there’s a concern. This kind significant factor in British Jewry in of atmosphere of insecurity, or sense of recent years—make up about 10 percent insecurity, might be harming the Jewish more informal education. It was partly of the Jewish population. revival that’s going on. The jury is out driven from the top, but also began to be at the moment, but I think actually this It’s a fairly traditional community on a kind of renewal from the bottom up as revival is fairly significant and deep on its one level. The people talk about the chief people, including secular Jews, wanted to own. It may be affected a little bit by the in Britain, but the chief rabbi is rediscover their Jewishness. sense of fear, but that does not explain all only the chief rabbi of the mainstream So there’s been quite a revival of Jewish of it. Orthodox synagogue. The Orthodox have life in Britain, particularly on this kind of quite cleverly positioned themselves as owens: Are British Jews—for want of a cultural and informal level. There’s a very the center of British Jewry. But there more felicitous term—more pro-Palestin- significant movement called , have been a lot of changes in recent ian or pro-equal rights than are Ameri- which is sort of an informal educational years. There was a time about twenty-five can Jews?

1 the boisi center interview: antony lerman and alan wolfe lerman: Broadly speaking, organized minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s visit, students, to the left. For its part, BDS British Jewry is very pro-Israel. I think how powerful it remains. But it has hol- breeds a situation in which there are in the latest survey done of British Jews lowed out, I think, just like Tony said, to clearly anti-Jewish things happening, but on the issue of Israel, about 80 percent some degree, and new groups have some I’m not sure if they’re really anti-Israel, say they are Zionist. However, there is a support in Congress. J Street has some or if they’re permanent. I also can’t help strong, albeit small, dissenting voice and connections with particular senators and but think about the great Jewish success in recent years there has been increasing congressmen. in this country, the unbelievable number levels of doubt about Israel and where of Jewish senators is just astounding. The Synagogue attendance is down very it’s going and what it’s doing. It is not other day I had dinner with a new senator much, but again, the same is true in expressed so much publicly, but is expe- from Hawaii, a Jewish senator Hawaii. Catholic communities. The civil society rienced as a kind of hollowing out of the In what other world can you get a Jewish thing is the one that’s actually much middle. senator from Hawaii? like Britain. We do have Limmud here. I I’ll give you just a quick example. Around think it’s much stronger in , but owens: Alan, do you embrace the term 2002–2004, when there was an intifada pretty strong here, nonetheless. “Zionist”? in Israel, there was a huge demonstration wolfe: If we have to have terms, I’m called by the Jewish community. Fifty going to embrace it, even though Tony thousand Jews came out in Trafalgar tells me it’s futile. Square to support Israel. By contrast, when they called for a demonstration “There are some owens: What do you think is the future during the Gaza war this past summer to philosophers that for American Jews who love Israel but are support Israel, 2000 came to the demon- frustrated with its actions vis-à-vis the stration. That doesn’t mean to say that all say that basically peace process?. those people are turning against Israel, wolfe: If you’re going to ask about the but it seems they are less likely now, in as an future, I’m immediately going to have to these current circumstances, to come be more pessimistic because I don’t know forward with their support. ideology is dead.” the solution. To me the term “liberal owens: Alan, how would you distin- Zionist” refers to an ideal of what I would guish the American context? like to have happen and what I hope could still possibly happen, even while wolfe: It’s actually pretty similar. I recognizing the situation on the ground think in the golden age of post¬–World owens: What do you see as the state of gets worse with every passing day. It’s War II American Jewry, there was a anti-Semitism in the United States? not like I would say I still believe that lib- tripartite structure of the synagogue, eralism and Zionism can work together the voluntary association or Jewish civil wolfe: This week, the anti-Semitism is- and it’s going to happen tomorrow. I’m society, and the organized groups like the sue at was raised at UCLA where a Jewish the kind of person that wants to look back American Israel Public Affairs Commit- student was interrogated as she ran for and see how variegated Zionism has been tee (AIPAC). It was a pretty well orga- student government. In some circles, this throughout its history and how other nized and intricate system. There’s been is being portrayed as the worst example groups have managed to be liberal and a kind of withdrawal from that pattern of anti-Semitism anyone has ever seen. nationalistic at the same time. recently, though. I don’t think this is so I think there was definitely anti-Semi- much related to Jewish life, but rather tism involved—asking her the kinds of owens: Tony, you’ve talked about the can be attributed to the “bowling alone” questions they asked, and presuming sort of romantic attachment that many phenomenon in general. Americans have that someone who is Jewish couldn’t be liberal Zionists have felt toward Israel. less attachment to institutions now than neutral and objective represents that. But Where’s that romance now? at the same time, the vote was retaken, it they used to; do more searching and lerman: That’s a very good question. I became an embarrassment. wandering around. don’t know where it is. I think it remains AIPAC is still very, very strong, but it Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) in the hearts of people like Alan and can’t count on the support that it once and other movements have in some way others who had this idea—whether it had. But you can see with the fact that something in common with Netanyahu. was really justified or not, I think, is a the Democrats are reluctant to say Netanyahu keeps going along and saying question—of an open, liberal society anything in protest against Israeli prime that he represents all the Jews. That then representing certain Jewish social values leads people to flee, especially college

2 the boisi center interview: antony lerman and alan wolfe of freedom of thought and that kind of thing. There was a time, of course, when Israel was characterized by the ethos of the kibbutz movement. I remember that because I was involved with that kind of thing when I was young. But of course, that time has passed and things have changed. Zionism seems to have gone so far away from that now. There are fascist tenden- cies in Israeli society, efforts to clamp down on certain kinds of freedom of expression, human rights, NGOs, and things like that. I think the problem with the Zionism question is, first of all, is there really any real Zionism today? There are some philosophers that say that basically Zionism as an ideology is dead; Although on other matters of Israeli soci- conversations. The public rhetoric, I still yes there was a very vibrant Zionist ide- ety they can be very much to the right. think, talks about a two-state solution, ology, but I would argue the only activist even Netanyahu speaks this way (though wolfe: This is an area where schol- kind Zionism that exists today is the one I think in the past week or so Netanyahu ars can see the real-world realities of that is driving the settler movement and has made it very clear that he has no sup- their theories because in the 1950s the the right-wing religious messianic Zion- port whatsoever for a two-state solution, secularization thesis was enormously ism. Liberal Zionism is trying to impose but that’s still the public language). popular. Religion was going to wither itself on that, trying to fight against that. away. I don’t know personally but I’m sort The private language—I don’t travel in Liberal Zionism is basically a Diaspora of convinced that David Ben-Gurion held the right circles to answer that, but I thing. In Israel the people who are liberal that in his head when he granted all these would be almost sure that most would don’t call themselves liberal Zionists, special privileges to the Orthodox, that be way passed the notion of a two-state they call themselves liberal or secular “they’re going to disappear so let’s give solution. and so on. them things now, we don’t have to worry owens: Is this conversation about owens: But isn’t it the case that many about them.” And boy, was that wrong. solutions different in the UK or in the of the ultra-Orthodox are really disin- lerman: Indeed. There’s a nice story, broader European context? terested in the State of Israel, and more actually, about Ben-Gurion meeting the concerned about the land proper? Or is lerman: It is, yes. Of course, it’s diffi- leader of the ultra-Orthodox communi- that an unfair characterization? cult to generalize, but if one generalized ty in the early days after the state was about Europe, there is more receptivity lerman: Well, they were disinterested founded. He was called the Chazon Ish; to the one-state solution idea. Although in the state for most of Israel’s history. Ben-Gurion said to him that, “look, we I wouldn’t say that it’s something that But after 1967 that changed because are like two carts going down a narrow even everyone who’s interested in the they—even some of the ultra-Orthodox— lane. You’re coming this way, we’re conflict is discussing all the time. But began to see Israel as in some way the po- coming that way. We’re basically going to we’re talking about the wider public here, tential fulfillment of the messianic ideal. push you out of the way.” So that was the as well. If you’re asking just about the They became involved in Israeli politics deal. He thought that they were finished, Jewish world, in Europe you will find that in a way that they weren’t involved before. and how wrong he was. it’s still not accepted. Most people will But they cover both streams. There are owens: Alan, is there any traction in hear “one-state solution” and they’ll say, some who are very strongly behind the the United States for a one-state solution “well, that just means destruction of the settler movement, but then others who in Israel-Palestine, as opposed to the two- Jewish state, it’s just a disguised form of actually are not really bothered. For state solution? anti-Semitism.” example, Shas, the Sephardi party, has wolfe: It depends whether you listen Having said that, some of the move- sometimes made some quite liberal to the public rhetoric or hear the private ment of some Jews to the left as a result statements with regard to settlements.

3 the boisi center interview: antony lerman and alan wolfe of this past summer’s conflict in Gaza I spoke to them about this, there was they have a bloc in a situation where lots has put a bit more traction behind ideas amazing resistance to it because they of little parties are around. But I’m afraid which are not the two-state solution. The were fixated on the idea of Palestinian that at the end of the day some kind of question which I’ll address tonight really nationalism. The group didn’t want to coalition is going to be formed, either is whether we need to even to talk about hear about equal rights. But interestingly, with Netanyahu at the head or with Isaac one state. The problem with the one-state there’s an Independent Jewish Voices Herzog, and it would be plus ça change, solution is that when polled, Palestinians conference at the end of this week on the plus la meme chose in many respects. are leaning much more in that direction. equal rights agenda, and Palestinians Herzog is going to have Tzipi Livni next Obviously are totally against it, and Israelis are coming to it. That will to him holding him back if he wanted to so you could never have a freely chosen be the first real opening up of debate, I make a step change—and I think there one-state solution anyway. So there’s an think, about this idea in the UK. needs to be some kind of step change. I argument to say it’s nonsense because it feel that he’s just offering a kind of Ban- owens: As close as the upcoming Israe- can’t happen. Who’s going to impose it? tustan situation as far as a Palestinian li elections look to be, should we expect The Americans aren’t going to impose it. state is concerned, not one that’s contig- any significant changes on this issue? uous and independent and sovereign. So goldstein: Is there any traction with lerman: What’s happening with the the future doesn’t look good no matter British Jewry for talking about a rights- new Zionist Camp party is quite signifi- what the outcome of the election is. And based paradigm instead of a conversation cant. They’re doing fairly well in the polls they’re not really talking about peace and about one-state or two-states? at the moment. But it’s hard to know, Palestinians. I don’t think Herzog has lerman: There is a great unease within when push comes to shove, how it’ll end mentioned the word “peace”—it’s not a the Jewish world in the UK about talking up. subject Israelis want to talk about. about anything else but a two-state solu- Most significant, I think, is the Arab [end] tion. Until very recently there’s been very group that’s brought the parties on the little talk about the equal rights agenda. Arab sector together for the first time. There’s a left-leaning organization called They could play a significant role because Jews for Justice for Palestinians. When

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4 the boisi center interview: antony lerman and alan wolfe