the boisi center interviews no. 100: march 11, 2015 antony lerman, author of The Making and Unmaking of a Zionist, and Bos- ton College political science professor and Boisi Center director alan wolfe sat down with Boisi Center associate director Erik Owens and undergraduate research assistant Evan Goldstein before Lerman’s presentation on a “new paradigm” for Israeli Jewish-Palestinian peace and reconciliation. owens: What is the current state of years ago when it was thought that the movement. They started in the UK, and the Jewish communities in Britain and community was declining so much, have expanded all over the world. To give America, and how are the two different? the question of whether there would be you the size of it: the main event is a Jewish grandchildren was discussed, and gathering around Christmas-New Year, lerman: A good place to start is size, there was a movement of educational when Jews are not otherwise occupied. because there’s obviously a vast discrep- revival—opening up Jewish schools, and Twenty-five hundred people gather at a ancy. There are about 300,000 self-iden- university campus to listen to a myriad tifying Jews in Britain. Most British Jews of lectures and take part in self-study and live in London. Jews used to live in all music classes and Talmud and anything, kinds of outlying places, such as in South really, that comes within Jewish purview. Wales, in the mining villages, out in the It’s an example that there is a hunger for countryside as well. About 60 percent that kind of thing. of the Jewish population is affiliated with some kind of Jewish organization, There is, at the moment, a lot of concern whether it’s a synagogue or a cultural about the question of security and an- association. The main synagogue group ti-Semitism among British Jews. There’s is mainstream Orthodox, called the Unit- a lot of debate about just how serious ed Synagogue. About 60–70 percent of the situation is. There is no doubt that Jews that are affiliated with synagogues anti-Jewish incidents have increased. are affiliated with that particular branch. They go up in relation to times of con- Reform Jews make up about 15 or 20 flict in Israel-Palestine. But there is, at percent of British Jews, and the ultra-Or- the moment, a sense of awareness of a thodox—who have become a much more problem, and there’s a concern. This kind significant factor in British Jewry in of atmosphere of insecurity, or sense of recent years—make up about 10 percent insecurity, might be harming the Jewish more informal education. It was partly of the Jewish population. revival that’s going on. The jury is out driven from the top, but also began to be at the moment, but I think actually this It’s a fairly traditional community on a kind of renewal from the bottom up as revival is fairly significant and deep on its one level. The people talk about the chief people, including secular Jews, wanted to own. It may be affected a little bit by the rabbi in Britain, but the chief rabbi is rediscover their Jewishness. sense of fear, but that does not explain all only the chief rabbi of the mainstream So there’s been quite a revival of Jewish of it. Orthodox synagogue. The Orthodox have life in Britain, particularly on this kind of quite cleverly positioned themselves as owens: Are British Jews—for want of a cultural and informal level. There’s a very the center of British Jewry. But there more felicitous term—more pro-Palestin- significant movement called Limmud, have been a lot of changes in recent ian or pro-equal rights than are Ameri- which is sort of an informal educational years. There was a time about twenty-five can Jews? 1 the boisi center interview: antony lerman and alan wolfe lerman: Broadly speaking, organized minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s visit, students, to the left. For its part, BDS British Jewry is very pro-Israel. I think how powerful it remains. But it has hol- breeds a situation in which there are in the latest survey done of British Jews lowed out, I think, just like Tony said, to clearly anti-Jewish things happening, but on the issue of Israel, about 80 percent some degree, and new groups have some I’m not sure if they’re really anti-Israel, say they are Zionist. However, there is a support in Congress. J Street has some or if they’re permanent. I also can’t help strong, albeit small, dissenting voice and connections with particular senators and but think about the great Jewish success in recent years there has been increasing congressmen. in this country, the unbelievable number levels of doubt about Israel and where of Jewish senators is just astounding. The Synagogue attendance is down very it’s going and what it’s doing. It is not other day I had dinner with a new senator much, but again, the same is true in expressed so much publicly, but is expe- from Hawaii, a Jewish senator Hawaii. Catholic communities. The civil society rienced as a kind of hollowing out of the In what other world can you get a Jewish thing is the one that’s actually much middle. senator from Hawaii? like Britain. We do have Limmud here. I I’ll give you just a quick example. Around think it’s much stronger in England, but owens: Alan, do you embrace the term 2002–2004, when there was an intifada pretty strong here, nonetheless. “Zionist”? in Israel, there was a huge demonstration wolfe: If we have to have terms, I’m called by the Jewish community. Fifty going to embrace it, even though Tony thousand Jews came out in Trafalgar tells me it’s futile. Square to support Israel. By contrast, when they called for a demonstration “There are some owens: What do you think is the future during the Gaza war this past summer to philosophers that for American Jews who love Israel but are support Israel, 2000 came to the demon- frustrated with its actions vis-à-vis the stration. That doesn’t mean to say that all say that basically peace process?. those people are turning against Israel, wolfe: If you’re going to ask about the but it seems they are less likely now, in Zionism as an future, I’m immediately going to have to these current circumstances, to come be more pessimistic because I don’t know forward with their support. ideology is dead.” the solution. To me the term “liberal owens: Alan, how would you distin- Zionist” refers to an ideal of what I would guish the American context? like to have happen and what I hope could still possibly happen, even while wolfe: It’s actually pretty similar. I recognizing the situation on the ground think in the golden age of post¬–World owens: What do you see as the state of gets worse with every passing day. It’s War II American Jewry, there was a anti-Semitism in the United States? not like I would say I still believe that lib- tripartite structure of the synagogue, eralism and Zionism can work together the voluntary association or Jewish civil wolfe: This week, the anti-Semitism is- and it’s going to happen tomorrow. I’m society, and the organized groups like the sue at was raised at UCLA where a Jewish the kind of person that wants to look back American Israel Public Affairs Commit- student was interrogated as she ran for and see how variegated Zionism has been tee (AIPAC). It was a pretty well orga- student government. In some circles, this throughout its history and how other nized and intricate system. There’s been is being portrayed as the worst example groups have managed to be liberal and a kind of withdrawal from that pattern of anti-Semitism anyone has ever seen. nationalistic at the same time. recently, though. I don’t think this is so I think there was definitely anti-Semi- much related to Jewish life, but rather tism involved—asking her the kinds of owens: Tony, you’ve talked about the can be attributed to the “bowling alone” questions they asked, and presuming sort of romantic attachment that many phenomenon in general. Americans have that someone who is Jewish couldn’t be liberal Zionists have felt toward Israel. less attachment to institutions now than neutral and objective represents that. But Where’s that romance now? at the same time, the vote was retaken, it they used to; do more searching and lerman: That’s a very good question. I became an embarrassment. wandering around. don’t know where it is. I think it remains AIPAC is still very, very strong, but it Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) in the hearts of people like Alan and can’t count on the support that it once and other movements have in some way others who had this idea—whether it had. But you can see with the fact that something in common with Netanyahu. was really justified or not, I think, is a the Democrats are reluctant to say Netanyahu keeps going along and saying question—of an open, liberal society anything in protest against Israeli prime that he represents all the Jews. That then representing certain Jewish social values leads people to flee, especially college 2 the boisi center interview: antony lerman and alan wolfe of freedom of thought and that kind of thing.