REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Wednesday, March 23, 1966

Present: The Deputy - Governor one hundred years old. I asked him if (Deemster S. J. Kneale, C.B.E.) In the he would like to go and visit the houses Council: The Attorney-General (Mr D.D. with me and he declined—why? Lay), Messrs J. B. Bolton, C. C. McFee, Mr McFee: It was not necessary. J. H. Nicholls 0.B.E., J. C. Nivison, H. H. Radcliffe, with Mr W. B. Mr MacLeod: I do not know why he Kennaugh, Acting Clerk to the Council. declined, but if he knows the state of In the Keys: The Speaker (Mr H. C. the houses that the people are living in Kerruish, 0.B.E.), Messrs T. F. Corkhill, he will know perfectly well that they H. D. C. MacLeod, E. N. Crowe, R. E. S. are a lot worse than the warrens and Kerruish, P Radcliffe, E. R. Moore, W. E. dens that the Government offices are Quayle, J. R. Creer, J. M. Cain 0.B.E., supposed to be. I would have thought A. H. Simcocks, T. C. Faragher, T. H. the first priority was to provide houses. Colebourn, J. E. Callister, T. A. Corkish, decent houses for the people to live in. J. J. Bell, P. Coupe, W. B. Kaneen, These houses in Foxdale are in an G. V. H. Kneale, H. S. Cain, R. Mac- absolute shocking condition, very few of Donald, A. S. Kelly, Sir Henry Sugden, them have a water closet. The houses K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O., with Mr T. E. that were built 100 years ago have no Kermeen, Secretary of the House. dampcourses, the walls are all damp and the people are living in houses that are not fit for animals and here we have an estimate and no housing programme LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD for Foxdale at all. In his report about ESTIMATES housing, he says there is a continual The Deputy-Governor: When we drift from the country to the town and adjourned, gentlemen, we were dealing it must be stopped, but I can see what they are doing, they are creating new with No. 18 on the agenda—the Local Government Board vote. towns, such as Ballasalla. There are plenty of houses there being built, but Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, one here in Foxdale, which could be with- or two questions I would like to ask. In out a doubt, one of the loveliest villages the first place I would like to congratu- in the Isle of Man, at the present time late the chairman of the Local Govern- it is what one would call a desolate area, ment Board for putting in the estimates a no-man's land, heaps of slag have been £10,000 for Foxdale. I only hope and there for I don't know how many years, trust that the Finance Board will not ever since the mines closed. We have cut this out as they have done in put in continually so much money, last previous years and leave Foxdale in its year we had £1,500 in to clear it up-- still derelict state. I also notice that the money was taken out by the Finance there is no housing scheme for Foxdale. Board, there was nothing done. It goes The chairman of the Local Government on continually year upon year and I Board stated last Tuesday that 83 per would honestly like to see the Local cent. of the houses in Foxdale were over Government Board doing something in

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the Foxdale area to make houses habit- Manx Electric, they have inherited able and fit for people to live in. something that was built 50 or 60 years ago, there is no car newer than 50 years Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, speak- old. I think the latest model that you ing on the capital estimates of some have will be a 50-year-old model, Mr £2,123,000 contained on pages 86 and Colebourn? 87, I think the Court do expect that many of these schemes contained in, Mr Colebourn: Yes. amongst these enormous figures, will be Mr Nivison: And these dilapidated the subject of special resolutions of things-- Tynwald. We do understand that. At the same time we can imagine that some of Mr Colebourn: They are not dilapi- the other items will be making provision dated. for already approved schemes. We do Mr Nivison: Well really they are not appreciate that under the Tourist particularly pretty to look upon. With Improvement Act there will be from this ultra-modern solarium that we talk time to time monies applied for and about and we all appreciate and we all these will not be the subject of special eagerly look forward to this develop- resolutions of Tynwald. There are many ment. I would hope that we might be other figures that are contained here, bold enough, Your Excellency, to con- but we would hope that such things as sider the advisability of removing those the central abattoir, the composting sheds to some other place if it is still scheme and one in particular that I am thought possible, still thought advisable particularly interested in, and I am sure to continue with this form of transport. the Court are eagerly awaiting, some If it is still thought advisable to con- resolution in respect of what is called tinue and perpetuate this, I understand the Derby Castle Scheme. It is down that part of the development, Your here as the swimming pool for Douglas. Excellency. has been to put some I am sure we are all eagerly awaiting wonderful canopy over the lines where this scheme and I would hope that the cars start, in front of this modern, whilst it is very essential to do this as ultra-modern, solarium. In other words soon as possible, I would hope that they it would be the ancient and the modern. would not rush too much and not over- This is what we would have and really look such things as the nossibility, even the visitors to our Island. I am sure, at this late stage, of taking in the Manx would not fully appreciate this. It can Electric sheds as well. Every time I be avoided and I hope that the planners come past that area, at the moment it would be sufficiently courageous to take looks like a place that you would see in in that whole area. It is a natural little many parts of Europe following the war valley—Port of Ardour is the name of where there have been some bombs the valley — a natural little valley, to dropped round about the place. It looks take in the lot, there would be sufficient absolutely terrible at the moment, and room for parking of vehicles, there one cannot imagine this wonderful would be room for further development solarium being built and next to it a if and when it was a success. At the series of asbestos sheds. It would be a moment I would recommend, Your complete and utter disgrace to a modern Excellency, members of this Court, to seaside resort to find that they were 20 along and see the space that is avail- going to spend—something like a million able for this development and say of money has been mentioned — some- "where are the motor cars going to go?" thing like a million of money to be spent You nave only got to have a modest in that area and then next door to this event on in Douglas today, which would area a series of sheds and some dilapi- attract 100 or 200 people, and you would dated cars lying out from time to time. see 50 or 60 cars outside. This is They were built, no reflection on the designed to cater for thousands of

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1165 people, if it is to be a success it must know that it is the duty of this Govern- cater for thousands of people. ment to provide houses for those people Mr J. M. Cain: May I ask, Your who cannot afford to buy or rent them —(hear, hear)—but, sir, we have had a Excellency, what estimates Mr Nivison is talking about? document circulated to us yesterday indicating the sort of cost which the Mr Nivison: The Local Government provision of large new housing estates Board Capital Estimates, Your Excel- are going to involve the Government. It lency, and one of these days we will be is only three years ago, sir, since the coming along and saying they were Con- Local Government Board issued a tained in the blue book, they were housing policy statement in which, passed in the green book and you have amongst other things, it indicated the had it, gentlemen. This matter has been intention of the Board to introduce discussed. In fact the chairman of the legislation under which there could be a Finance Board has told us if we have programme of the renewal of existing any strong observations on any of these urban housing. Now sir, the hon. points, let us know about these observa- member for Glenfaba, Mr MacLeod, has tions, so that we can then act accord- spoken about houses in Foxdale being ingly. I would hope that the Finance 100 years old and more, and he has Board and the Governor's Executive deduced from that fact alone that these Council in considering these, and then houses, because they are 100 years old, coming forward to recommend to Tyn- that they must be replaced. We have wald a scheme for our approval, would seen, sir bear these facts in mind. Mr MacLeod: I did not say because Mr McFee: I give you that promise they were 100 years old they had to be now. replaced. I said that from what I had Mr Nivison: I would hope that that seen of them they were unfit for people would be so because we are all eagerly to live in. A different thing altogether. awaiting this development and we Mr Simcocks: We have seen, sir, that would like it to be a credit to the Island. the cost of re-building is becoming very Development is going on on the heavy. My own view, sir, is this. That promenade, more in the centre of the in spite of the efforts of the Finance promenade, and I know from the plans Board, the unpopular efforts of the and so forth that I have seen and Finance Board, to ration the amount of studied that this will be a development Government building so as not to over- —regardless of what it contains—all of load the industry, nevertheless, sir, the us may not be proud of what goes on programme of the Local Government inside, but every one of us will be proud Board contained in its capital estimates of the actual building that is put there. of two and one-eighth million, in fact, It will be a credit and people will say is overloading the local building indus- the Island is doing something. I would try, sir, we have seen nothing whatever hope that at the other end, Derby Castle of this programme of urban renewal. I end, we will be able to hold our heads would ask the chairman of the Local high when this development does take Government Board to give this Court place and it will not be next door to an assurance that when he indicates his some tram sheds with asbestos sheeting intention of introducing a system of over these and dilapidated trams rattling grants and loans to help people owning in and out in front of this modern or even renting old houses to bring solarium. them up to date, I would ask that he Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, I really gets on with the job of bringing would like to speak about one of the this legislation in before us. I believe features of the Local Government Board that we should not allow our old capital estimates, namely housing. We buildings to rot away into decay

Local Government Board Estimates 1166 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 merely because we are not prepared The whole thing is getting utterly to spend money on them. I believe ridiculous and the method of arriving at that the policy of this Government rents is foolish in the extreme and there at the moment of abandoning the is no realistic approach to this problem old and building new is proving at all. You have got numbers of houses wasteful and that it is overloading our here, I am quite sure that if a good deal building industry. I believe, sir, that a more attention was paid to building few thousand spent in making existing them perhaps in terraces we should save houses more nearly up to modern stan- a great deal of money. dards would do a great deal more good The Deputy-Governor: Terraces and than the scores of thousands of pounds back lanes! being spent on one scheme after another piling work up on an industry which Mr Bolton: On the sheet that we have cannot cope with the amount of work, here this morning, houses which are with the result that building prices are going to cost half as much again in sub- beginning to rocket. I ask you, sir, and sidies as the rents received, we find a hon. members, to look again at that provision for a TV aerial, £605. Why a document which was on our desk TV aerial? yesterday, look at the prices which you Mr MacLeod: To get TV! are being asked for the building of a single venture of 102 houses. If the Mr Bolton: To provide children's building industry were not being so play areas and equipment. overloaded I believe those prices might Mr Callister: Will you let them have have been reduced by as much as a a canary in a cage? quarter. I do ask the chairman of the Local Government Board to look again Mr Bolton: If they bought it them- at his Policy, let us look at these houses selves, they could have a budgie as well! which are fit to be renewed and repaired But I am not going to provide it for and let us make more use of our ancient them, that is the answer. The position, heritage and let us be less prodigal in sir, is getting quite out of hand. I the way we are spending money on new notice in addition, in the capital houses when there is much to be done estimates there is a provision of with the houses which still exist. £100,000 for purchase of land; does not say which land, where the land is to be, Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I would simply £100,000 to buy land to put like first of all to comment on the matter houses on, which are going to cost us which has just been mentioned by the more and more and more. All the time hon. member, Mr Simcocks, and that is we are receiving this constant the papers which we received yesterday agitation that we are making a profit and the further papers which we have out of the poor people who have to live received on our desks this morning with in these houses. The situation needs regard to Lezayre Road Estate, Ramsey. very, very careful examination and a The first thing that struck me is this, complete re-assessment. For that that the total rents to be received, in- purpose, sir, I am going to suggest that cluding garages — £12,473 — total it is high time that this board was split deficiency £19.390. It seems to me. sir, right down the middle. I have sat on that we need to have a very realistic the Local Government Board on two look at some of these figures, in addition separate occasions during my time in to which I notice that they have got the Legislature, and this board is one down in the rent structure six one-bed- which I honestly believe cannot and roomed bungalows at 29s. 4d.; 12 four- does not cope with its own work. I am bedroomed houses at 40s. 5d. Now who satisfied that a very very careful look thought them up? Who thought up 29s. should be taken at the duties of the 4d. or 40s. 5d? Is not 30s. near enough? Local Government Board—a great many

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of the duties should be taken from them doubt whatever the hon. member, the and another board set up to deal with chairman, does his best to meet the them with more opportunity to get the requirements of his office of chairman of work done. Now when you consider the Local Government Board, but I am some of the things that this board has quite sure that in private conversation to do. It was intended originally, I he would agree that the Local believe, to supervise local authority Government Board has got far too much spending and to see that the local to do and far too many diverse duties authorities run their own affairs in and responsibilities. In the same way accordance with reasonable methods and reasonable finance. They are in the planning committee is a committee charge also of public health throughout of the Local Government Board. For a the Island. They are in charge of long time I have felt that the planning housing everywhere which is not catered committee should be separate entirely for by a local housing authority. They and should be appointed by this Court, have now been given development and not appointed by the Local Govern- areas, south Ramsey—how long have ment Board forming Dart of the Local they had that in their pockets and what Government Board. Here we have a has been done about it? board which itself is responsible for the biggest developments in the Island and Mr McFee: Only a couple of years. it forms its own planning committee. Mr Bolton: Only a couple of years, it We have them developing south Ramsey. will be another 20 before very much We have them developing these new develops. They have the responsibility estates here, there and everywhere, for drainage, they have the respon- Marashen Crescent is one, we have got sibility for appointing, from their own another one for Castletown, the body, a planning committee which has planning authority themselves doing the been very, very very busy for quite a planning. Now I honestly believe that number of years during the building not only for that reason but for the boom. They administer the rural reason that the work cannot reasonably housing schemes, the agricultural be expected of five members of the workers, financial assistance to the Local Government Board—at any rate tourist industry is handled by the Local nobody could expect that it should be Government Board, they are done well and efficiently—I believe that responsible for the fire services. I see it is high time that the Court gave they have got a big item down here for attention to the question of the Local ordnance survey under the Local Government Board. I have watched Government Board, private enterprise this over the past 20 years and there housing, in fact there is far more than is no doubt that whenever a new job can reasonably be handled by one board cropped up—give it to the Local and the duties and the responsibilities Government Board. The Local are so diverse that I am quite sure, Government Board will do it." That is from my own experience, that the work not good enough and it is high time this does not get done properly question was faced. That is really the main point on which I wish to speak Mr McFee: You used to give half days this morning, sir, and I believe that it while the other members gave full days. is a matter which requires attention. I Mr Bolton: We know, we know, we do believe too, we have had recently know very well what the hon, member sent to us a report on housing and I talks about, but I could suggest this. would like to ask the chairman of the That the board can talk and put things Local Government Board at what stage off, they can say well we can deal with it is intended that that housing report that some other time and we will meet should be debated in Tynwald and fully so-and-so on such a date and I have no discussed, because I am quite sure that

Local Government Board Estimates 1168 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 a great deal of preparation will be remains a derelict area with rushes necessary before that debate arrives. I growing through it. Now this was a trust that it is not being discussed completely irresponsible bit of work by today or that it will not be discussed in the Laxey Commissioners and cost in a great hurry although I do realise that the region of £.10,000 of public money. it is essential that something be done The Speaker: Your Excellency, on a in that matter as quickly as possible. point of order which is not a point of The Deputy-Governor: May I appeal order at all. This was in fact approved to members to make their speeches as by the Local Government Board and short as they possibly can, questions carried out under the direction of a frequently as just as effective, because professional man. I can contemplate so far as this agenda is concerned, we are not going to get Mr Kneale: The professional man was through it today and I am contemplating the architect employed by the Laxey the adjournment of the Court to Friday Commissioners who went into hospital to finish it off. So it all depends upon and left his assistant in charge, and his the end of the day and certain members assistant stood by and watched these may find it is not necessary from a sense rocks being put over the land. My of loyalty to back their chairman. Yes, memory is pretty good on these things. Mr Kneale? The Laxey Commissioners should face up to the expense of clearing up this Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, first of mess they have made. As far as I am all I would support the point being put concerned I will never subscribe to forward by Mr Bolton that there should another penny of Government money be a division in this board and that going on this scheme, enough money has some of the duties should be taken away. been wasted already on it. As a member that spent the full days there I realised that while I was on that The Deputy-Governor: It is a good board we were not getting through the building site, is it not? work and that some of the work should Mr Kneale: Mr McFee suggested that be delegated elsewhere. Having said that we could put houses on it, there is a I would now like to make reference to solid foundation there now. (Laughter.) the Laxey sports field which was I would now like to turn to housing and mentioned by Mr Speaker—now this was in the .first instance would refer to the a matter that cropped up while I was board's private enterprise scheme for on the board. The general idea was to building houses. When I was on the remove part of ffie bank at the rear to board we curtailed those who got help form terraced grandstands, and to raise under this scheme. I would remind the level of the field. Now the material members that this scheme offers taken away from this bank was full of applicants a ten per cent, grant, a ten stones so the Laxey Commissioners who per cent, interest-free loan and a 20 per were handling this job immediately cent. loan at four per cent. I understand spread these stones over the Laxey that at present anyone can get help football field and turned it into a rock under this scheme no matter how well garden. (Laughter.) The football club oft he may be. This to my mind is members tried to pick these stones completely wrong. The scheme should up by hand, but every stone they be restricted to those who cannot afford picked up had another stone under- to build without this help and should neath it and after they had removed not be open to everyone irrespective of tons of stones by this method they gave means. In the Board of Education they it up as a bad job. A farmer refused give grant aid to students in to put a machine over the field because proportion to their parents' income. of the number of stones which would This policy should be adopted in this damage his machine, and now the field housing scheme and a top limit of

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1169 income should be fixed beyond which no £40,000 overspending on the Wild Life Government help should be given. I Park, you begin to realise what waste now turn to the south Ramsey scheme. is. This scheme has been bedevilled by a Mr MacLeod: What has that got to do system of dither and drift (these are with the Local Government Board? words which r heard on the television Mr Kneale: Quite a lot to do with last night which I thought fitted this the Local Government Board and South scheme)—there are too many cooks Ramsey in general, and also I am taking interfering with this scheme. The this opportunity of having a go back at Local Government Board and the Mr Speaker. (Laughter.) The Local Ramsey Commissioners should be Government Board also bring forward allowed to get on with the job without this Lezayre Road scheme. Now other interference from the prod committee members have mentioned this and the of Executive Council. When I left the figures that we have had put before us board plans had been finalised and today give some indication of where the tenders obtained for the erection of a excessive expenditure is taking place. block of flats with some shops included, I was going to refer this matter back to to be built in phase one backing on to them so that they could reconsider the the backs of the Waterloo Road houses. whole scheme but it appears now that This scheme should be well on the way the houses are quite a reasonable price to completion by now but instead, when but it is the planning, the layout of the the Local Government Board were ready area that is costing all this fabulous to start this scheme was stopped by amount of money and it is time they got someone, I believe it was the Executive a bit more realistic and realised this is Council. Why does the Local Govern- a housing estate and they are not laying ment Board stand by for this out a fancy park. I am interested in interference? Why don't they get on who pays the deficiency on this scheme with the job? These prodders that have —does Government pay 100 per cent. been prodding them along, when you deficiency or do Ramsey pay 25 per look at their own efforts and realise cent? We should have this quite clear. that the two boards that have This matter was raised at a previous failed to have their estimates ready in Tynwald and the answers given were time for the Finance Board to go not clear. Very soon this area must go through them, these chairmen are two into the Ramsey boundary and Ramsey members of Prod Committee, they need should therefore pay a proportion. prodding themselves and leave the other There is a similarity between this boards to get on with the work that they scheme and the Douglas scheme outside are doing. I made mention during the their boundary at Spring Valley. Now, discussions on the estimates of the if Government are going to meet the Health Services Board to the fact that 100 per cent, of this Ramsey scheme these estimates have not been before the then they should be meeting 100 per Finance Board and Mr Speaker in his cent. of the Douglas area because it reply took that as an opportunity to should be pointed out that wherever criticise me, for as he claims, wasting the development takes place in this £5,000 on the casino inquiry. When you Island in the main it is the Douglas look at the state of things in South popie who pay for it and the Douglas Ramsey and the money that has been representative should be looking at this wasted there by the preparation of very, very closely. Now that the schemes, also have a look at another difficulties of obtaining the land for the place in Ramsey—the Grand Island compost plants have been overcome I hotel where £150,000 of Government hope the Local Government Board will money went into a building that was press forward with this scheme with valued at £45,000, when you look at the vigour. It has been on the stocks far too

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1170 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 long and it is time we were finished with accounts of its money as the Douglas this disgraceful open tipping which are Corporation does and has from time just a breeding ground for the rats which immemorial. are running rife in this Island at the Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, may I moment. Finally, a suggestion—how to please just interrupt one second to say save money on house building. On my that the hon. member did say "as Mr travels each week I visit a lot of local Bolton said." I never suggested that they authority estates and I have seen did not keep proper accounts. hundreds of semi-detached houses with a concrete path running across the Mr Callister: I said "there was utter front of them and a separate path confusion as Mr Bolton had said." I running in from the road to each house am not talking about the accounts at front door with a gate on. If they put all, so far as you are concerned. It is one gate and one path going up between quite impossible to obtain the informa- the houses they would save £10 on tion on housing from the Local every pair of houses which would Government Board that we require, and amount to long thousands of pounds in I would propose to the Local Govern- some of the larger estates. And then ment Board that they take the finally, a question for the chairman of Corporation of Douglas accounts and the Local Government Board. What copy them so that we know exactly action is the board taking to remove what is being spent on what. I shall derelict cars which are lying around refer to that in a moment. On the one the countryside? hand we have Mr Callister: Your Excellency, I Mr McFee: May I just clear this point crave your 'indulgence for the length of for Mr Callister—the finance and the what I am going to say. I have taken accountancy of housing for the Local up very little time of this Court during Government Board is done at Finance the estimates, but this is something for Division, not by the Board. which I feel very strongly and which The Deputy-Governor: The point is I think has to be said on the estimates. that it is quite possible •by arranging We had from Mr McFee at the last with Finance Division to get what you Tynwald Court reply to my questions want. about housing authorities and Mr Canister: I am pointing out to deficiencies, or surpluses, and I can only you that the figures of the Finance gather from this particular reply that Board which I asked for differ from the he is unable to give me the information figures of the Local Government Board that I required. He says, "In reply to itself and then the figures from the Local the hon. member for North Douglas I Government Board office differ from the have to say that in the absence of a figures which appear in this book. At separate housing account it is not the last Tynwald, too, the hon. member possible in the time given to provide for Ramsey laid very pointed questions. an accurate answer to this question and I cannot help feeling that there is quite later on when something has been a wrong conception of our housing prepared the hon, member will be able existing, not oniy in this Court, but to obtain full information relating to the throughout the Island. When the hon. board's houses." The confusion in the member for Ramsey, Mr Kelly, put Local Government Board, as pointed out questions he asked for deficiencies, and by more than one speaker already, the Finance Board, the chairman of the particularly Mr Bolton, means that the Finance Board gave certain figures of Local Government Board is muddling deficiences which were in 1962/3, on and does not keep proper accounts £16,000; 1963/4, £6,000; 1964/5, £12,000. of its housing. I say that the Local One might just as well have given the Government Board does not keep proper expenditure of the profit and loss side

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of the accounts without mentioning the Mr McFee: Why then? surpluses which had existed. I think we need to ask ourselves a few per- Mr Callister: Because you and this tinent questions, why did the Govern- Court are deliberately avoiding de- ment of the Isle of Man and the Gov- ficiences and making the tenants pay ernment of the United Kingdom build unreasonable rents. houses at all? At the first world war Mr McFee: Artificially created de- there were slums in England and a ficiences. shortage of houses, at the end of the war young men came back and had a right Mr Canister: I know you are trying to have a house to live in and Lloyd to artificially create something. If you George promised them "houses fit for make a promise to a man—the Douglas heroes." That obligation became a moral Corporation and other authorities bor- and a national obligation accepted not rowed for 60 years at certain rates, now, only by the United Kingdom but by haven't you a right to fulfil that obliga- this Court. It became an economic tion that you will meet a normal necessity and It has proved its economic deficiency over that period of 60 years? value. No-one can honestly dispute Mr Bolton: Isn't that what is happen- this. The benefit of housing people ing? from the slums in Douglas in decent homes—the housing of the workers, the Mr Callister: You are now coming to increased value of assessment has the stage where you are deliberately become a national economy and the making a profit on the housing estates. wisest investment this Government has Mr Bolton: Why not? ever made bar none. The tragedy is Mr Canister: And I say that this is that we have not honoured the obliga- ultra vires. tions and the promises made by our predecessors in this Court some 20 years Mr Bolton: Oh do you! You are talk- ago. When Sir Percy Cowley was spon- ing the utter rubbish you have been soring this from 1945/6 to the Housing talking for years. Some of us were Act of 1955 this Court undertook to pay here 20 years ago, and you were not. 75 per cent. deficiency on all approved Mr Canister: Perhaps I was some- housing schemes covering a period of where else. Perhaps I was learning 60 years and 1,000 houses were to be more than you were. I don't submit to built in five years. Have we honoured you and your interpretation of figures that obligation? Have we continued by a long way. that policy of building houses? There Mr Bolton: Oh, I knew you would not. would have been between four and five thousand houses built since then. But Mr Canister: No. You can twist figures the Local Government Board and this as you like. Court and many members of this Court The Deputy-Governor: Please, time is and outsiders are deliberately dis- on the wing. honouring the promise given to local Mr Canister: I want to show the chair- authorities to provide these houses. The man of the Local Government Board words are in 'the Hansard if you care that at the end of 1965 there was a to look at them. Local authorities were surplus on all Island housing, a surplus. encouraged and promised that they would receive 75 per cent, deficiencies A Member: So what! on approved schemes over 60 years. Mr Canister: And you are talking about paying subsidies. The hon. mem- Mr McFee: And aren't they getting ber of Council spoke about a possibility it? of a £19,000 subsidy to the Lezayre Mr Callister: No they are not getting scheme—am I right? it. Mr Bolton: Yes.

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1172 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Mr Callister: Right. He himself as a glas figures which provide more than 50 surtax payer is getting a subsidy of per cent. of housing in the Isle of Man. £300 a year. The estates cost two millions pounds, the Government made a block grant of Mr Bolton: Rubbish! £416,000, the hon. member of the Mr Callister: A subsidy of £300 and Council, Mr Bolton, has on more than he was a mover of the abolition of one occasion said that that block grant surtax. What sheer impertinence to is still owing. come to this Court and to talk about Mr Bolton: I never said anything of tenants getting a subsidy. the sort. Mr Bolton: Do you know what im- Mr Callister: You said that the tenants pertinence is? should be paying interest on this. Mr Callister: Take the figures in this Mr Bolton: In calculating rents-- book. In 1963/4 the total receipts (that is all we got, the total receipts of the Mr Callister: Now don't interfere. Local Government Board) were £33,000 The Deputy-Governor: Just a moinent and the expenditure on the other side, please. Let us get back to fundamen- just the sum, no company would accept tals, the tenants are not owning these such figures, expenditure £35,110 with properties. It is a matter between the a deficit on Local Government Board local authority and the Local Govern- housing—£1,442. Now Douglas surplus ment Board. You are pretending to say was £4,934, but he has never mentioned these tenants own the properties and it, nor did the chairman of the Finance that is why you are arguing at cross Board mention it under deficiences, nor purposes. did the chairman of the Local Govern- ment get up and defend it, but the net Mr Callister: I don't want to argue. result on our Island housing for the year I am not saying that the tenants own ended 1964 is £3,492. Why this smear, these properties, but I will tell you this, this malignant talk about local council that over the years, out of the estates house tenants receiving a subsidy? And I the whole of the interest on borrowed will give you a few more figures in a capital plus a redemption of capital has minute. The year 1965, in the same way a been paid out of the estates, and the surp:us of £5,997, and the year 1966, a tenants have already paid £261,000 of deficit of £4,870 which taken together the capital borrowed to provide the in all of the three years shows a surplus estates. They are paying for houses in of £9,000, and if you include the elderly which they never own .a brick. Now let people, £4,386. Have I proved my case? us dispose of the fact that that block grant was given as a national and moral Mr Bolton: That includes all the items responsibility. One might just as well of capital charges ask the farmers in the Isle of Man, or Mr Callister: These are the figures tell the farmers in the Isle of Man, that taken from the green book. they still owe the half-million grants Mr Bolton: But you have not included that they get every year. the loan charges. Mr MacLeod: Rubbish! Mr Callister: I have included the loan Mr Callister: To my mind that charges. Look at your book, turn to £416,000 was a gift to the Douglas Cor- page 59 of your green book and read poration for boom rent for which they under housing schemes, maintenance, have valuable property. Now what has loan charges, elderly persons, local been given to the estates in subsidies? authority deficiency payments. Do you By the Government, over 11 years, want any more? I want to give you a £85,000 subsidies, £85,000 to house few figures now about the value of the people in this Isle of Man. Sir Henry estate. I can only give you the Dou- Sugden was right when he said it is

Local Government Board Estimates

TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1173 more important to build houses for the scheme and every one of them who will people than to build swimming pools, take on—he said they may cost £4,000 and I say more and more it is a much a house each—every one of them over better investment. Which leaves the a period, get a subsidy of £760 total from the ratepayers of Douglas at each. £760, and multiply that by 150 and about £21,000, that is all Douglas rate- you have £114,000 given away to 150 payers have paid in subsidies for the paople, and yet we talk about subsidies whole of the time over the 11 years— for Council house tenants. How is that a lid rate for 11 years. Let us get rid made up. A grant of 10 per cent., £400, of this malignant violent prejudice the interest-free loan of 10 per cent., against nationalised tenants, this is the £400, the loan of 20 per cent. at 4 per best investment the Island could make cant., £800, £1,600. Deposit by the and it Is just about time we realised it. parson £400, first mortgage at £2,000- Mr McFee: An investment must make £4,000. Now the grant of 10 per cent. is profit, surely? £400, the interest-free loan — £400 for 10 years would work out at about £120, Mr Callister: It has made profit, the and the saving of 2 per cent. on the profit of housing people is a national borrowing of £800 would amount to economy, you save it in health, you about £240, £760 and on top of that breed a healthy nation, you have got there is a rebate on surtax on interest less crime, less disease, you have got the paid on mortgages. What is the figure workers housed, they are paying off the that we see today? capital-- Mr Bolton: On surtax. A wander more Mr Bolton: Only some of them. don't •go in for it! Mr Callister: It is costing Douglas Mr Callister: I am not talking about nothing whatever to continue these surtax, a rebate. I said surtax. estates and yet you want to use these 4,000 people to make profits for private The Deputy-Governor: He meant it. profiteers. I am wondering where the Mr Callister: A rebate on income tax chairman of the Local Government on their borrowing. It is simply mad- Board has got to these days, he has been ness. The British Government have not associating with private capitalism and thought of such a scheme, they would brought in all sorts of schemes. Now, not think of such a mad scheme—where gentlemen, I must refer to this. The did it come from ? I don't think it could hon. member for West Douglas, Mr have come from Mr McFee. I don't Kneale, is perfectly right in referring to think it could have come from a this scandal, the Building by Private socialist, it came from a rent racketeer. Enterprise Scheme. I am going to vote Now who are the people who can par- against these estimates, on your housing ticipate in this scheme? Certainly no policy and on your Enterprise Scheme, one with a fixed income, an assured and I shall have more to say when the income of less than £1,500 a year, and building report comes forward and the they would have to be of a reasonable budget. This is an unwarrantable age at that, and these are the people squandermania of public money, an who can provide homes for themselves abortion between a social. welfare and which are getting this subsidy. A worker who has associated with a rough estimate of redemption of the private capital racketeer. (Laughter.) government loans together with interest and interest on the £2,000 mortgage The Deputy-Governor: You are getting would cost approximately £200 a year a bit mixed up, aren't you? and then there are rates to be found, Mr Callister: The hon. chairman of and finally without continuing, Your the Local Government Board said that Excellency, I would love to go on— 150 had already taken advantage of this finally, I do agree with what one or two

Local Government Board Estimates 1174 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

members have spoken about, responsi- this is not the first time they have bilities of this Board. I sympathise very dropped a clanger, and I think there greatly with the Local Government could be a lot said in support of what Board. They are overloaded, they have Mr Bolton was saying that the Local more than they can competently deal Government Board have got far too with, I believe the time has come when much on their plate. The Local Govern- this Board should be divided up and ment Board are not doing their job. relieved of its responsibilities, there was The hon. member Mr Kneale talks like a time when the Local Government as if Laxey has got bags of money to Board, on an average, we did not get a spend. What is in fact the true position report from the Local Government regarding Laxey ? Laxey is paying a Board for five years and that seems to rate of 16s. 6d. in the £., that is not in- be the atmosphere in which the Local cluding the water rate, Douglas is pay- Government Board is continuing and I ing 17s. ltd.—that is the latest figures I do support the hon. member-- can get anyway, they have also to pay Mr McFee: What we want is more the water rate on top of that administrative staff. Mr Bolton: What are the rateable Mr Callister: When we offered you a values like ? proper administrative staff you won't have it. You say you want to go on as Mr Moore: The rateable values are you are. very similar, there is not a great deal of difference. I am a member of the Mr McF'ee: No we don't. Assessment Board and I find very little Mr Moore: Your Excellency, I rise difference between the value of a bun- first of all to support the estimates, but galow up in the Lonan Estate or any- first of all I would like to deal with the where else and a bungalow in any part statement by the hon. member, Mr of Douglas. I don't say they are the Kneale, a late member of the Local same but there is very little difference. Government Board. And for the extra inconvenience of buses, etc., there is no difference. A ld. A Member: Not a late member ! rate in Douglas brings in £2,000, a ld. Mr Moore: An ex-member. He was rate in Laxey brings in £70, now what trying, of course, to put the blame on is £50 going to go for any sort of de- the Laxey Village Commissioners. Now velopment. It is only emphasising, of what happened ? We find that the Laxey course, the lop-sided system of rateable Village Commissioners, under the super- values, and I do hope and I am sure the vision of the Local Government Board hon. chairman will in fact take this (cries of "No")—the Local Government question seriously and I am sure that Board are a statutory power and they the hon. chairman and the responsible are the supervising body. If they feel Local Government Board that we have that they can delegate the authority to at the moment will at last deal with a local authority they do it, and on this this once and for all. This is a problem occasion that is what they did. and is causing great concern to every- A Member: But it was stopped. body concerned. I hope that this will be the last year that we will be able to Mr Moore: Whether it was stopped or come along here and hear this allega- not, they stopped it too late. It is no use tion. And I do think that the Laxey you blaming members of the Commis- Commissioners have done an excellent sioners who seek full qualified advice of job and although they have been rather an architect, and they have been let accused in the past, I think they will down very badly on this. And it is no get on-- use the Local Government Board trying to blame the Commissioners, it is their Mr Kneale: What are you complain- responsibility and I would suggest that ing about ?

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 19(56 1175

Mr Moore: I said the Village Commis- very bad condition and will want a lot sioners, I did not say the ex-members of money spent on them, it would be of the Local Government Board. two or three years before they would be available for anyone, and therefore I Mr Kneale: You think they have done think we have got to get on and build an excellent job ? some houses for the younger people who Mr Moore: I am quite convinced the want to reside in the village not leaving Laxey Village Commissioners have done the village, and being left with a lot of all they could do in the circumstances. old people. I think this is a very serious They sought legal advice and I think problem, I don't think the Local Gov- that is all you could do, or I could do. ernment Board have given it serious The Deputy-Governor: Well, where is consideration. the Laxey Football Club playing now ? The Speaker: The chairman has al- Mr Moore: In Lonan. ready promised it, hasn't he? The Deputy-Governor: I see. I thought Mr Moore: Well, he was talking about they were defunct because of this. Well converting some warehouse into flats, if let us get down to something more that is the sort of conversion then I am important. not very pleased with it, quite frankly. I think that is all, and with that I will Mr Moore: This is very important, support the estimates and look forward Your Excellency, as member for Laxey. to some of the things that we require. The Deputy-Governor: Well I don't The Deputy-Governor: The hon. mem- think so. (Laughter.) ber, Mr Crowe, and I propose to limit it Mr Moore: Also, Your Excellency. I now to two more speeches because this would like the hon. chairman to indicate will go on all day if we are not careful. as to whether or not, looking at the That is, of course, with the consent of estimates, or the controlled scheme I the Court. I can't do it off my own bat. have tried several times to get the Mr Crowe: I would like to get back, chairman to introduce, and that is to Your Excellency, to the point I made modernise older property in Laxey, and last night about the Ramsey housing not only Laxey but in the various parts scheme being mentioned today. Now the of the Island, as I said once before, we hon. member Mr Nivison did mention have got other housing schemes for- that when we approved--- ward, we have got the same idea, we are going to have some action this time. Mr Bell: On a point of order, Your Well, I am looking for great things from Excellency, has the hon. member for the new members, Mr MacDonald here Michael already spoken ? He has and various other members of the Local already spoken. Government Board. The other point, Mr Crowe: I asked a question. Your Excellency, is that I do hope that The Deputy-Governor: He did not the hon. member of the Local Govern- speak, he wanted my ruling on a point, ment Board will once again look at this you remember? When I ruled against question of more houses for Laxey. him. There is no doubt about it, Your Excel- lency, that for the hon. chairman to say Mr Crowe: Now in the first resolution that because he is building 20 houses I moved a week yesterday, sir, I stated for old people that he is going to solve —and I quote—I must remind hon. the housing problem in Laxey. He is not. members and Boards that to date we A lot of the houses these old people will are only asking as plainly stated in the be vacating for a start will want a lot resolution, Your Excellency, and the of money spending on them. Some of Finance Board would take these esti- them are old, very similar to what the mates into consideration when framing hon. member said about Foxdale, in the budget. If these resolutions are pas-

Local Government Board Estimates 1176 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 sed no authority is conveyed to anyone Mr McFee: Your Excellency, if there to expend money. No Board or depart- is any objection to Lezayre Road going ment can embark on any new expendi- on; we were wanting to get things done, ture outlined in these estimates unless we are held up, held up, held up. and until provision is made in the bud- A Member: By whom ? get, Now then the hon. member Mr Nivison did mention that if we ap- Mr McFee: By the Board in general, proved some of these things today that on this question. If, Your Excellency, would be taken as approval to go ahead this is a ruling, let us forget the Lezayre with these schemes. Road, we will take it off our desk this morning. The Deputy-Governor: He is anxious that the big schemes should be submit- Mr Crowe: We don't want to hold it ted in detail to Tynwald. up, sir, one moment, but it has to be considered properly in its right perspec- Mr Crowe: Your Excellency, in the tive. Now I don't want to misquote the Isle of Man Constitution Act it states no chairman of the Local Government member of Tynwald may move any Board but would he—with reference to resolution in Tynwald other than a Derby Castle yesterday he did quote declaratory resolution or have leave to something about Prod Committee had introduce into either the Council or the agreed to certain things being put for- Keys a Bill seeking to authorise expen- ward ? diture of public money, or move to in- Mr McFee: No. crease any expenditure sought to be authorised by any such resolution or Mr Crowe: You did not state that ? Bill without the prior concurrence of Mr McFee: I don't know what I said. the Governor and the Finance Board. (Laughter.) I was caught •on one leg actually, I will give definite—I have got The Deputy-Governor: There is noth- the dates and everything, when meet- ing new in that. It is the application of ings have been held and I will give it it that matters. to the Court and I am quite satisfied Mr Crowe: Yesterday morning this that you will agree with what that scheme was put forward to members for statement will be. the first time. We are not against build- Mr Crowe: Well just very shortly on ing houses in Ramsey but we want some Derby Castle, Your Excellency. When notification, we want some— the Douglas Corporation came before Mr McFee: We could not get it any Exco with this scheme, it was con- earlier-- sidered and it was then given to Finance The Deputy-Governor: Well I will Board to go through with the financial make it quite clear to the hon. member implications of the scheme. We thought that these estimates are only estimates, the best way to do it would be to get a they don't bind anybody and until the delegation from the Douglas Corpora- Governor and the Finance Board have tion to meet us. We invited them up and approved the estimates there is no we had a consultation. Now in this financial vote. It is a matter entirely for Derby Castle scheme there were various you people in your discussion to try and sums of money mentioned as revenue, influence His Excellency and the everyone knew what the expenditure Finance Board in relation to the was likely to be and when the Finance scheme, that is all you are doing. Board was trying to agree on a figure that we would present as a grant to Mr Callister: Only the Governor can Douglas naturally we had to have some introduce anything new. indication of what they were going to Mr Crowe: If that is correct. Your receive from rents and the takings at Excellency, why are we debating the the swim-pool and at the different gates. Ramsey housing scheme ? Now Douglas Corporation would not in

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1177 any way indicate what those rents were the Local Government Board have going to be. The architect had said that given information of that nature to the the rents would be so-and-so for all the Corporation. different projects, the night club, tak- ings from rents, from different bowling Mr Crowe: I don't make statements unless I can substantiate them. alleys and all this. Now the Corpora- tion would not give any indication— Mr Corkish: It is last Friday I am they said that they certainly did not talking about, Your Excellency. They think that those figures could be arrived had no information last Friday. at, they were not very helpful as far as finances were concerned. We had Mr Crowe: It is not a case of holding then to arrive at figures, we had then up anything, Your Excellency. We want to try to arrive at figures which we to do it in proper order, we want to do worked out ourselves saying if so-and- it properly. When these things come be- so will have receipts of so much, the fore us we try to look through them swim-pool will have receipts of so much, and give back to the Local Government we think then that this would be a good Board after discussion—we want to get sum or a sum which would be in keep- them going as much as the Local Gov- ing with government to grant to ernment Board do, but we don't want Douglas. Now that was submitted to them bulldozed through Tynwald and Executive Council, Executive Council in a manner like it has been tried to be seemed to agree with what Finance had done today. I am not going to repeat recommended, Mr McFee (and maybe what I have said over and over again. rightly) always said that this scheme I would just like to mention just one should first of all be submitted to the thing in conclusion, and that is the hon. Local Government Board, that they member for North Douglas, he has been were the body in charge of all schemes on about this Private Enterprise of this nature It was then referred back Scheme, I have given him the answer to the Local Government Board, it was to that quite a long time ago. The Pri- referred back to the Local Government vate Enterprise Scheme—it costs Gov- Board. Now they did have architects ernment (and I am speaking from brought from the U.K. to see if this memory) £45 a year to subsidise these scheme was a viable scheme, whether people for 30 years. At the moment the they learnt anything from those archi- new houses to be built in Ramsey ac- tects I don't know, but since then Mr cording to the figure given to us yester- McFee and others have been in negotia- day morning, it is going to cost govern- tion with the Douglas Corporation, and ment and Ramsey £186 per year for 60 I think they have given the Douglas years. Now we want to build houses let Corporation figures that we had submit- us do it ted to Exco and I don't think submitted Mr Bell: On the present rents to anyone else, but those figures have now been submitted to Douglas Cor- Mr Crowe: On the present Tents. poration. The figure I mentioned is the Mr Callister: You are talking about figure that Finance Board recommended 150 wealthy people, as against working as a grant, now whether that was the people. correct thing to do or not, I don't think Mr Crowe: I am talking about the so. building of houses in the Isle of Man. Mr Corkish: On a point of order the Mr Callister: The government own the information is that the Corporation had houses they have built but these people no figures, they don't know what they own the houses themselves. You are are going to get. giving them to them. The Speaker: Your Excellency, on a Mr Corkhill: Who keeps them in statement which I received yesterday repair ?

Local Government Board Estimates 1178 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Mr Crowe: That is the point. There their own department and do some- are quite a lot of things to be taken into thing to help their own staff by en- consideration besides that. They are at larging their department. least vacating a house for someone else. Mr Nivison: Is it not a Douglas Cor- Mr Callister: No they are not. Not poration scheme, the Derby Castle necessarily. Scheme ? Mr Bell: Nice to get on your feet, Mr Bell: Oh yes, but I mean this is isn't it ? I won't stay too long. One or just an illustration . . . we have the two points which have been spoken on, Ramsey scheme where all the planning I don't wish to repeat them at length. is done by the Local Government Board, I just want to emphasise a different line and I am sorry that the hon. member on them. The Local Government Board for Ramsey, Mr Kelly, is not here today, have been subjected to some criticism Your Excellency—is he here ? Oh you as a Board. I would not wish to do that, would not have thought he was here. I would wish to commend them, the (Laughter.) You would not have chairman and each of the members be- thought it. I know he is perfectly satis- cause they do have a great deal of fied with the arrangement on this Ram- duties, but I have thought for quite sey housing scheme, and I am quite sure some time, Your Excellency, that know- that if the Willaston or Annacur scheme ing of the proposed and impending de- was on the same footing, that I too velopments that we have in the Island would be sitting quietly, hear all, see I am very surprised to see that the none and speak none. I would be sitting Local Government Board estimates are down very quietly. And the fees play a not making any provision for a greater very large part in the expenses of build- extension of their architectural and ing. The hon. member for West Douglas, planning department. I do feel that they Mr Kneale, has made a contribution, a are completely, and I would say, ridicu- point which is worth contributing on lously understaffed on the architectural saving the costs of houses, just a ques- side. They have so much work to do, so tion of the paths. Well if that is to be many plans to vet, that it is almost an considered by the Local Government impossibility for the plans to get the Board surely they should be consider- scrutiny that they should and there is ing reducing the private costs from the also the delays, and there is also the architectural side if they could employ prohibitive cost of having schemes done more staff themselves. 'The Derby Castle by private architects, private firms. The development is one that I am vitally Derby Castle scheme is a case in point concerned in and we are showing so where it may well be that the firm en- much concern in it, Your Excellency, gaged on that would probably receive that the members for Douglas were pre- some £120,000 in fees. Now this is not pared to raise the matter as one of pub- to be sneezed at and without being a lic importance at the commencement of member of the Finance Board, or even yesterday's sitting. A short word with being employed in the Government the Speaker of the House of Keys, and Treasurer's Department, I think one then a quick chat with the chairman of could give a pretty rough guess that for the Local Government Board has con- a half of those fees the Local Govern- vinced us that the best way to get this ment Board could employ another six matter aired is not to raise it as one trained architects in their department of public importance but to see how for some considerable period. Now the much importance the Local Government Derby Castle scheme is phased for a Board and Tynwald themselves attach two-year completion and I really do to it, The chairman of the Finance think that this is a case in point where Board has just given us something of the Local Government Board should the history of how many doors this really lend an ear to the pressures in scheme has passed through and, the

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1179 chairman of the Local Government like to get this matter clear once and Board said yesterday that the Executive for all, how much government contribu- Council had it and the chairman of the tion can be expected, and because there Executive Council does not know where is nothing in the estimates one is led to it is, more than likely it is on the believe that the swimming pool is in agenda now. I am quite sure that some- fact all the scheme that is going to be thing occurred last night that will have there this year. I hope that the chair- made all the loose ends fit in this morn- man in his reply will be able to com- ing. pletely demolish that assumption. In the The Speaker: Your Excellency, would hope that he is, I am supporting this. you permit me to explain this point, sir? The Speaker: Your Excellency, may I There may be some suggestion made just make one point here, sir. It may into the minds of the hon. members that help to clear the air, I don't know, but it there has been undue delay on the part is this. The amount of government con- of Executive Council—the point about tribution available to the scheme has it is this. The hon. member has men- already been made known through the tioned my name, sir, in connection with Finance Board to the Local Govern- an approach yesterday morning for this ment Board. Whether or not they are matter to be raised as a matter of prepared to accept it is another matter, urgent public importance. I told the but that has been made known. hon. member yesterday morning that as far as I was aware the matter was still Mr Bell: To whom? in the hands of the Local Government The Speaker: To the Local Govern- Board and that I had no knowledge of ment Board. it being produced to Executive Council. When I arrived home last night I found Mr Callister: Whether Tynwald a notice from the Executive Council's approves ft? All these happenings this secretary, having it placed on the morning are quite wrong. agenda for consideration tomorrow. I The Speaker: It is all right, Civil Ser- also found accompanying it a letter vice Commission did not come into this. which indicated that amongst others Mr Callister: And Executive Council Mr J. J. Bell of the Douglas Corporation had no right to be in it. had attended a meeting of the 9th March with the Local Government The Speaker: They have not been it Board so he obviously was aware of the it either. approaches that had been made. Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, in Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I view of the time, do you think this is am sure the members of the Court will necessary? be very amused by that. The meeting to The Deputy-Governor: No I don't. The which the hon. Speaker refers—I was hon. member for Ayre, Mr Radcliffe. present as a member of the Derby Mr P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, as Castle Sub-Committee from the Douglas this Court will be aware, there have Corporation, but the chairman of the been several changes in the Local Local Government Board who presided Government Board within the last year at that meeting will assure the Court and as I have been in at some of these that what was conveyed to us there was negotiations, I will just briefly touch conveyed in confidence, in strictest con- on some of the matters mentioned. Re- fidence, and I have respect for those garding the Laxey development, Your confidences, Your Excellency. Excellency, this has been gone into very Mr Nivison: You do know something thoroughly by the Local Government then. Board at all stages. We have actually Mr Bell: It has been more by indica- got details from the very commence- tion than anything definite. We would ment of the operation, and to the 24th

Local Government Board Estimates 1180 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

July, 1964, the Government had paid to chairman of the Ramsey Town Commis- Laxey in this development some £9,146. sioners that at all times Ramsey Town This unfortunately was a development Commissioners had co-operated. I think that did not turn out successful. It is he has rather a bad memory because no use going into detail now whose fault when, after trying to purchase ground on it was, or whose fault it was not, what the outside of Ramsey which did not we want to do is get the matter put come off, we went to the Commissioners right, and the Local Government Board and suggested Lezayre sports field—what are now working in co-operation with we were told was if you will supply us the Highway Board, who, I understand, acre for acre for ground to be utilised are going to widen the road in that as a sports field, we will then give you area, and then drains will be put into this ground. So every time we tried to this field and we will certainly within make a move, we were blocked. Eventu- the next six months, hope to have it ally, I must say the Commissioners in condition so that we will get back came round to agreeing to give us this into operation as a sports field for land and I do seriously hope that this Laxey. Court will today back these estimates because we are now prepared to go into A Member: With the approval of this matter—the prices for the houses, Tynwald. I think, as the members have been given Mr P. Radcliffe: Certainly, yes, we will them in detail this morning, are very never forget that point, sir. Regarding competitive—the only doubt about the the abattoir, we felt that the figures expenditure may be in the layout. put forward on this abattoir were ex- Taking this into consideration, sir, this cessive. I personally thought, having is one point—as the hon. member for experience of other abattoirs on the Rushen has said—I can say that again— mainland that the Government shou'.d we find that in the layout of this field look into this as it was for ex- there is a certain amount of pedest- penditure of over £100,000 unnecessary. rianisation. Now whether we all agree Regarding the detail on it, I now have with this or not, it looks to me as if plans which we hope will save the it is going to be the thing of 'the future. Government roughly £100,000 on the Douglas Corporation are planning a original estimate. This abattoir will new building development at Annacur, comply with European requirements there that is totally pedestrianised. We and I understand that the Ministry of will go into this matter and we are Agriculture in England will then con- always prepared to meet the Finance sider taking carcase meat from the Isle Board and thrash this out and get it of Man on which, if there is any sub- back to a suitable arrangement. But on sidy to •be paid, they will pay it on a the sewerage of this land at Ramsey, similar basis to what they now operate it has been intended to lay a trunk in Southern Ireland. On the Ramsey sewer of about 12 inches to go straight development, sir, this has a long history out to the adjoining property. This and the Local Government Board •have property is now lying there dormant, it been blamed many times for holding was bought by a building developer who this project up. Personally I think we put up six so-called Modern bungalows have worked overtime on the Ramsey and spoiled the whole estate. That land housing development. We started off is now available for purchase and I with the maisonettes which eventually think it is land that could be included were turned down, we were told to look in the estimate put forward by the Local around for further sites, we went to Government Board for purchase of land Ramsey and spent a considerable time that can be held for development in looking for ground. It was mentioned that area. Touching, sir, on the fire ser- by the hon. member for Ramsey, the vices, in the Isle of Man, the require-

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1181 ments in the capital estimates—we on into the town areas and perhaps help the Fire Committee are very proud of to improve houses that today are the fire services we have in the Isle of structurally sound but do not have Man. We have 14 full-time officers and modern conveniences. I think, sir, I have men at present, and 103 retained men touched on most of the things that I who are carrying out their duties under think we are now directly concerned very difficult conditions. In Ramsey for with but I do hope this Court will give instance, there is an old machine of great consideration to the position of about 30 years of age, the building is the Ramsey housing before anything is such that each machine has to be taken in the way of a vote of censure parked behind the other, if the first on this Board, because we would like to machine did not, for instance, start, the get started in this area, and I do think fire would be a great height before you that with the co-operation of this could get there. So it is essential that Tynwald at this stage, immediate steps we should try and accommodate these can be taken. fire machines in up-to-date stations. In Mr H. H. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, our estimates also, sir, you will notice I beg to move the question be now put. the increase to £500,000 for the Tourist Premises Improvement Scheme. Well Mr 'Coupe: Your Excellency, I must definitely, Your Honour, I think this protest because we have here had an whole Court realises the benefit of the answer to the questions that have been tourist industry to the Isle of Man, placed. I must protest at the time taken and everybody today being of a more up by a member of the Board in place affluent society, they wish to have better of the chairman, if I am not allowed and more up-to-date accommodation, to ask my question. and we on the Board have leaned over Mr Bolton: Quite right. backwards I think to help this industry Mr Coupe: May I ask my question, by providing the money wherever sir? necessary to bring not only the larger hotels up to a standard, but also the The Deputy-Governor: Yes, if it is smaller boarding houses in up-town just a question. areas that require this development, and Mr Coupe: It is a question. on that sir, the Board are also now go- The Deputy-Governor: You know ing to bring forward a Bill to transfer what I am trying to do. the liability of the Fire Escapes Act to the Fire Service Committee. We know Mr Coupe: I know, sir, and I sym- that there are many buildings in the pathise very greatly with you, sir. Item Isle of Man at the present time taking No. 27 on the Capital Estimates — in holidaymakers that have not suitable Mote's. £20,000. Where and when fire escapes provided. There is loans Mr Nivison: And how? available for this money and we will Mr Coupe: And also I would like to certainly try and co-Operate with the fully support what the hon. member for tourist industry and the boarding house the Council, Mr Nivison, said regarding keepers to get all our business on a Derby Castle and 'the Manx Electric proper basis. On the rural housing sir, Railway tramsheds. It would be just the Board have given this great con- farcical to make a solarium there and sideration and realise that there are leave those sheds as they are. many properties throughout the Isle of Man that could be immensely improved, Members: Hear, hear! in the urban areas as well as the rural The Deputy-Governor: Very well, it areas, and it is our intention on the has been now moved that the question Board to extend this scheme, with the be now put. Now no amendment is approval of Tynwald, that we can come allowed on this and I propose to move

Local Government Board Estimates 1182 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 that now and if two-thirds of each and that is that we at least should have branch carry it, then the chairman re- a meeting with the Corporation and the plies, that is the procedure. So those in other authorities on this very subject favour of the question now being put and I would be quite happy to join in, please say aye. and I happen to be chairman of the A division was called for and voting Health Committee of the Commis- resulted as follows:— sioners and I would like to know some- thing to be conveyed back to our own House of Keys— committee in regard to the running of For: Messrs MacLeod, P. Radcliffe. this thing and how it is going to work. Creer, H. S. Cain, Faragher, J. M. Mr McFee: Your Excellency, first of Cain and MacDonald-8. all in replying to the debate I would Against: Messrs Corkhill, Kerruish, like to say a word of appreciation and Moore, Simcocks, Colebourn, thanks to Mr Radcliffe, my colleague Corkish, Bell, Coupe, Kneale, Kelly, and vice-chairman of the Board, for his Sir Henry Sugden, and the Speaker, support and for his answers to one or two of the problems. First of all I should The Speaker: Your Excellency, the like to try and answer Mr Speaker, who resolution has failed to carry in the I consider in this Court the arch- House of Keys, eight votes being cast in enemy of planning—only tolerates the favour, 12 votes against, sir. working classes and can think in mil- The Deputy-Governor: Very well. lions for casinos for gambling, but there is no point in asking the Legisla- would create a second South Ramsey tive Council to vote under those circum- on the Lezayre Road evidently. Here is stances. Let us carry on with the debate. a 20th century leader with an 18th Be it on your own shoulders. century mind. With regard to the Laxey Football field, may I say that the cost Mr Kelly: I just want to ask a ques- to date has been £12,940, to which the tion, Your Excellency. If I could have Government has made a grant of £9,146 an assurance from the hon. chairman and like Oliver Twist, they are coming I think I Would be satisfied. It is No. 14 back for more after making a mess of of the Capital Estimates referring to the job that they set out to do. Now the composting scheme and according what we have to consider here is that to what the hon. chairman said yester- we are not legislating for one particu- day, it was indicated to me that the lar village. Any decision that we make Douglas Corporation were going to run in principle to one village, surely must it, and then it may become a fait be a precedent for all villages in the accompli, and we as outsiders so far Island, and we must remember that away, you can understand it, if there villages throughout the Island have pro- is going to be only Douglas Corporation vided their own sports pavilions and in this, surely Ramsey Town Commis- fields by their own effort and by volun- sioners should be entitled to some tary support in the neighbourhood. preliminary meetings to discuss the pos- sibilities of making use of the plant. We Mr Callister: Like the Bowl! want to join them, we have been to a Mr McFee: And therefore—I am talk- lecture, we have been to a cinema show ing about villages at the moment. We on it, we have had all sorts of informa- will come to the towns if you wish. tion conveyed Villages like Ballasalla, like Colby, The Speaker: And now you can foot Rushen and other places, they have the bill. been successful but not so Laxey. Here Mr Kelly: It is not a question of is a half-hearted attempt to collect the footing the bill, Mr Speaker. Just give stones until they got tired, and would me a chance to say what I want to say they pay a reasonable rent? No. They

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1183

put a limit on what they were prepared decision involved in the provision of an to offer even for a rent if we spent agricultural worker's dwelling which more money and made it an up-to-date is purely a Board decision? playing field. Mr McFee: Yes. Even the Board has The Speaker: Your Excellency, this is to comply with the planning authority's an absolutely unwarranted attack on a direction. Mr Speaker, I would say to football club that had nothing what- you, sir, that if you have no faith in ever to do with the application. the chairman of the Board, I am quite Mr McFee: You have brought it on certain you can trust my colleagues on yourself, sir, and you have got to take the Board, who I consider to be very it. They spread stones and after spread- reasonable men, perhaps not tainted so ing the stones as the hon. member from much as myself, but in this question of West Douglas has said, Mr Kneale, they planning, planning is a thankless job, sowed the grass in among the stones, but we intend to do it so long as we are and not only stones now but we have members of the planning authority got a crop of grass and stones. justly and fearlessly. And sporadic, ill- considered planning could ruin this Mr Nivison: Which are growing? Island by ribbons upon the highways Mr McFee: This field now needs and it is not true to say that we have complete re-drainage and as the hon. stopped isolated and sporadic building member and vice-chairman of the Board in the countryside. We still allow that, has said, we have still got sympathies but we try to control it and keep it in this direction and the Highway within reasonable limits and we con- Board and the Local Government sider, for instance, we have had recently Board are now investigating as to how an application to bespoil Baldwin Val- on earth we can get them out of the ley, do you want to see that decorated mess. Housing in the Laxey-Lonan area. with housing estates? Well this is the I have already said we will give con- kind of thing—we have got to make the sideration to this. The need in the area decisions and all the pressure possible as indicated by their housing list is 23 is brought to bear against us from and already we are building the 21 units various groups within this Court and of course, for the elderly, but there is a outside it to try and upset what we possibility—it is quite true what Mr think is just, and we are trying to do Moore has said, and Mr Speaker in this it in a fearless, sensible way. Not instance, that this will not necessarily only that, not only that, but you have meet the need. He then goes on in his got to take into account that the most harangue—a complaint about planning economic development from the Govern- decisions. This I venture to suggest may ment Purse is along the idea of the be the voice of extreme landlordism— estate and also out from urban areas why can't we do as we like with our where services at high cost exist already own land? And because a farmer wanted and Mr Speaker says—what about to be a law unto himself and start a drainage at Dreemskerry. Now here is ribbon along a highway, although every the complete answer. A few houses reasonable alternative was suggested and once they are established, then a and offered by the Planning Committee demand upon the public purse — you he still lobbies members of this Court have got to provide us, we have built when he was advised by us of the Plan- the houses now, you have got to pro- ning Authority that if he was still not vide us with water, you have got to satisfied he had the right of appeal to provide us with a new drainage scheme a Government Appeals body of which whether it is Dreemskerry or up on he did not avail himself. Earystein or anywhere else—we demand The Speaker: Your Excellency, on a public services on our area and where point of order, is a planning committee you allow this sporadic kind of de-

Local Government Board Estimates 1184 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 velcpment the next demand of course, Douglas. 12 large applications and at the is for great pressure upon the public moment these 12, besides other applica- purse to provide public services of tions which will subsequently come in electricity, water, drainage, roads and this year, these 12 total to applica- so on. We are trying Ito act in a sensible tions for £151,000 in themselves, and way to direct and control planning there is also a hold-over of some of the development in the interests of the Isle incompleted jobs of last year which of Man from the financial economic will be charged up against this year's point and also from the view of amenity account and new applications are antici- and the spoliation of the countryside. I pated, so I would say that it is reason- think you can trust the Planning Com- able that we should double the vote in mittee. I know no-one likes even plan- this instance. This scheme is producing ning legislation, let us have a free-for- good results and is evidently justifying all is possible in the minds of some, but the scheme itself and will result in the it would ruin the Isle of Man as a much improved accommodation which visiting resort, let us hold to what we is so essential in the Isle of Man. The have got. The answer has been given to composting scheme is a local authority the Speaker by Mr Radcliffe on the matter and therefore Douglas Corpora- question of the abattoir. tion is now sponsoring and preparing The Speaker: No he has not, sir. a scheme. They will probably ask at a later stage when the scheme is pre- Mr McFee: Oh. What did you want sented for 75 per cent. grant towards to know? the cost and they will be prepared to The Speaker: I wanted to know who operate and administer the composting is taking responsibility for the abattoir? scheme after that in conjunction with an agreement with the local authorities. Mr McFee: It will be a Government I promise here that before any scheme sponsored scheme and it will be ad- is finalised or •any decision taken that ministered at Government level. That all the local authorities of the Island is our intention. This will be decided will be convened and negotiated with when the vote comes in detail and the a view to coming to some sort of an scheme is presented to Tynwald. agreement so •that this one composting Mr Kaneen: Your Excellency, will central scheme may be advantageous to the Government be responsible for all. Ramsey we will admit is at the ex- slaughtering the meat? Slaughtering the treme end of the central collecting area, cattle? but when we visited Edinburgh on one occasion, we found that their collection Mr McFee: This is a matter of detail. area extends to 15 miles, and it was It will be presented to Tynwald and I found to be economic, and I feel that would advise the Court to deal with that there is no reason why some kind of matter when it is presented to the Court arrangement cannot be made in which when full information and a memoran- Ramsey can be included. dum will accompany the scheme for the purposes of giving information to Mr H. S. Cain: A radius of 15 miles? hon. members. Mr McFee: A radius of 15 miles, yes Mr Bolton: In good time. Lezayre housing details. They have been Mr McFee: In good time, sir. Yes. called by the hon. Speaker as being a Tourist loans were doubled in this planner's dream or something like that year's estimates to £500.000. This hon. I think it was. Well in the first place I Court, I feel, indicates which way the want to assure the hon. Court that this wind is blowing. We have at present is quite different from an ordinary hous- about 12 quite large applications for ing estate. This in a sense is not a hous- the improvement of large hotels in ing estate at all, this is a town extension

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1185 and town development. It involves the motors and vehicles on the road, life in laying of an 18-inch—the hon. member the community is more hazardous, and said 12-inch sewer. It involves the lay- of course we are planning for the ing of an 18-inch trunk sewer and a new modern requirements. Safety first for stormwater system of 15 inches all the the boys and girls, is this a wrong kind way to Sulby River and also the re- of policy? We are providing that pedes- grading of a water course. The pro- trians too can walk in safety to the vision of the roads are planned for fur- shops and to the schools without cross- ther extension to meet the need of town ing main traffic roadways. This is the boundary extension for the next 25 or modern concept and this is what we 50 years. There will be over 200 yards have noticed when we have gone to of road frontage which could be charged 'other places and noticed modern estates against future development against the carried out in this modern way, and I adjacent land and I did warn the Court think it is right, and morally right at if you remember on the last occasion that. We have got to forget that et one when we were speaking about this, that time when we were little children although the land was given to us free— many of us did in fact live in cottages do I sound dry ? (Laughter.) without the amenities that we enjoy The Deputy-Governor: A little hoarse! today. Are we looking back or are we Mr Bell: A drop of gin wou'd go with looking forward? I am looking forward that! to a day of affluence when this kind of bogy of deficiencies will be forgotten. Mr McFee: Now I did say, I warned People will not need deficiencies. We the Court that whilst it was given to us will be living in that society when there free this land would not be cheap land, will be prosperity for all classes; in fact that Ramsey sewerage system is inade- classes will go and these houses will not quate, needs a complete overhaul, and be working-class estates, they will be for this purpose we have invited, and houses for the citizens of the Isle of we have had the complete survey and Man. report and a scheme prepared by con- sultants, the name of Ashcroft, who A Member: Hear, Hear! have estimated to provide an adequate Mr Callister: That is the time when system of drainage and sewerage in this the rich won't get all— area and in the Ramsey town generally would cost £74.000 besides another by- Mr McFee: Well you ought to be look- pass of roughly £5,000, and so it can be ing forward to that day, not harping said that a lot of this expense is really back into the dim, dismal, miserable town extension, town development, and a past. Forget it! Look forward and look complete overhaul of the sewerage and towards the stars. (Interruption). stormwater systems which is now over- The Deputy-Governor: Who is going due in the town. Now when you take to do the work? this with roads and future development of the area it could be said that this Mr McFee: I would like to now to deal scheme today that has been put, and has with the question raised by Sir Henry been criticised, is really economic and Sugden, the hon. member for Ramsey. compares quite favourably with the He has spoken of the dire need of ordinary developments and the housing houses in Ramsey and the total at the schemes in other parts of the Island and present time on the list, besides any of recent years which have been pre- displacements that may take place, of sented. On this question of the type of 152 — people on the list. He has also new development you have got to take expressed the concern of Ramsey citi- into account, gentlemen, that motor zens that not one brick has been laid traffic is increasing every day. In 10 yet in the clearance area which has years' time there will be double the been derelict for 30 years, and he asks

Local Government Board Estimates 1186 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 is it true that maisonettes were planned stand by the basic price laid down and tendered for and are ready to com- when the scheme was first prepared and mence. Well I have to answer that. In tendered for, to carry on in that way. the first place, yes, 32 maisonettes were However that is matter for the-- planned and they went out to tender, The Speaker: Will the chairman also and one tender was provisionally explain why it was not in keeping with accepted by the Local Government the resolution of Tynwald? Board; in fact the contractor is still prepared to go on with the scheme at Mr McFee: What is that? What was the old basic price plus the net in- the resolution of Tynwald? creases. Why was it not proceeded with? The Speaker: The resolution of Tyn- And what type were they? Well, I put wald in relation to South Ramsey. the elevation of the maisonettes on the table this morning so that hon. members Mr McFee: What is it? could see that they were a good type, The Speaker: Well you ought to know, they were fully up to Parker Morris you are in charge— standards, and would have been a very Mr McFee: I know. Yes, I would like good quality type of erection, and I am ycur interpretation of it. quite certain myself that they would Mr Kneale: I can remember it well. have given complete satisfaction. This The Medes and the Persians were men- scheme was formulated with the Local tioned. So, in fact, the development put Government Board, we were, as Mr forward by the Local Government Radcliffe has said, experiencing diffi- Board was quite a proper one. culty in buying land and negotiating land and then the delay in proceeding Mr McFee: On one instance it seems with the scheme, it was held up because that when we try to do the right thing, it was occasioned by the offer of alterna- produce a quality scheme it is con- tive land by the Commissioners and the demned. We have been condemned on possible purchase of other land in the the Lezayre road, we are setting our area. Why was it shelved? Well, to be sights too high, we are making . . the quite honest, this was shelved or held houses now are too good a quality. up, delayed, after being advised that Because we were not so pretentious in the Finance Board and the Executive the flat and maisonette scheme, al- Council were dissatisfied with the rent though I claim that it is equally of high structure that the Board and the Com- standard quality and more so than what missioners had agreed at that time, and the houses will be on L,edayre road. in that sense I suppose they have the You have only got to study the plans right and are fully justified in their if you can read them, they were large, action. The second reason was that the spacious, we were offering to put good environment of the derelict and demoli- quality finishes. tion area was not conducive to attract Mr MacLeod: What is the good of a good tenancy. As far as I am con- bringing in a plan for only you and one cerned and as far as my Board is other person. concerned, if the Court or the Executive Mr McFee: The others have studied Council and the Finance Board feel that this, sir. This is history. now that we have Phase 1 and Phase 2 practically purchased and emptied of Mr Bolton: You were building on a tenants we could clear, demolish the bomb track, weren't you? whole area and there is no reason why Mr McFee: I have already explained now, with the change in circumstances, that one. When you build what appears that this scheme could not go on at to be luxury they condemn you, when once and that the good offers of the you build ordinary they say it is not contracting party who is prepared to palatial enough. Which way are you to

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1187 go? I do not want to fall out with my of you to approve now another addition hon. colleague Mr Callister. He has very in those rents. You are quite wrong, strong opinions and one can only credit sir. That money dare not be used for and appreciate his tenacity — when he anything else but to meet future defi- gets hold of an opinion and an idea he ciencies. is not easily set to one side. I would Mr McFee: There is nothing laid down say to him that it is difficult at short in any Act except that in our Housing notice for the Local Government Board Report we recommended and Tynwald to get the facts and figures that he asks Egreed to our Housing Report that for as we do not keep the accountancy where surpluses over a certain amount but it is done at Finance Division. It were contained in housing funds that by could be got and at a later date the the direction of the Local Government whole picture could be given to him. I Board those funds could be used for would agree, too, with what Mr Callis- other 'housing maintenance and housing ter says that housing is a sound invest- generally in the area. There is nothing ment. There is no doubt whatever that laid down in any legislation that forbids those houses which he referred to in it. The deficiency payments to which the earlier days that cost about three to hon. member referred and the scheme five hundred pounds to build — they presented by Sir Percy Cowley in 1945 are bearing a profit today, there is no or 1946 — they were definitely and pur- doubt about that, they are helping in posely provided to maintain (and it is the overall provision of housing written in the whole scheme) a reason- throughout the Island. It is a sound able rent structure. Now it is a question investment and that is why this Court as to what is a reasonable rent struc is still prepared when worthwhile, ture, and no-one, not even Mr Crossman reasonable schemes are presented to himself, would suggest that rents are them each year they are still •backing unreasonable and whilst I admire the it, and, in fact, the Finance Board last hon. member's doggedness as a cham- year on the Budget, they stated quite pion for cheap rents, I believe that definitely, they felt that housing was the Court even against the sympathy— No. 1 priority and would find finance sometimes his attitude has hardened for it at every opportunity, that was the Court even against the sym- their •own opinion and this House pathy-- agrees, I think, in general with Mr Cal- Mr Callister: I am not asking for lister, that housing is a sound invest- cheap rents. I want to stop exploitation. ment. But I do not agree that Housing Acts contain any directive concerning Mr McFee: Douglas may have had an surpluses, and neither do they forbid apparent surplus for the past two or them, but they do provide for housing three years, but they have been "in the reserve funds into which monies can be red" in the past and I can assure the paid and these monies to be used for hon. gentleman they are heading, if housing purposes as authorised by the they get on with the job, which they Board, and this was agreed to three have got to get on with just now to years ago, when we presented 'our hous- provide 500 houses at Annacur, that they ing report, 1963, approved by Tynwald. will be "in the red" again. The Derby Castle scheme. Now it has been sugges- Mr Callister: Your Excellency, I must ted, somebody more or less has accused mention this. The Douglas Corporation me, or has hinted, that I gave confiden- surpluses have now reached £19,000 tial figures to the Douglas Corporation and are set aside in Reserve Fund and deputation that met the Local Govern- they dare not use them for anything ment Board at a recent meeting. What else and next year they will be £23,000 I did say — and gentlemen, you must and it is ultra vires and quite wrong remember we were trying to negotiate

Local Government Board Estimates 1188 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

and get to some sort of understanding, The Speaker: Will the hon. chairman and to know what the position was, and go a little further here and tell us how if you cannot quote certain figures at the issue has become a little more com- certain times you are not going to be plicated now through the pressure that able to negotiate at all, arid I am quite has been put on Douglas to bring in yet certain that the Executive Council and further schemes into the whole atmos- the Finance Board would have some phere of this development? confidence in the chairman of the Local Mr McFee: What pressure is that? Government Board who is negotiating The Speaker: You mention the com- on matters of this kind. What I did say mittee stage that you are suggesting but was when there was hesitation on the you also mention the pressure that has part of Douglas Corporation to proceed becn applied to the Corporation-- with a scheme unless they got certain financial assistance, I did say to them Mr McFee: I never mentioned the that the Finance Board was not likely word "pressure." to exceed a certain figure, and I feel The Speaker: I am. that I was quite justified in saying that. Now the Local Government Board con- Mr McFee: You are. You speak for vened a meeting on the 3rd March with yourself. I am speaking on the Derby the Douglas Town Council Estate and Castle scheme and that is all the ques- Works Committees tion I was asked and if Mr Speaker wants to ask something outside, com- Mr Nivison: Which year? pletely outside our Agenda today, if he gives me notice in the normal procedure Mr McFee: This year. With their offi- I am prepared to answer the question cials, also Mr Quayle, representing the in Tynwald. Mr Nivison suggested and Tourist Board was present. The project I think it is a very, very good suggestion was discussed and then the next day it — this question of the Manx Electric was agreed by the Local Government tramsheds which spoil, or could spoil, Board. We met again on the 4th, it the venture, and that it should be given was agreed at that meeting that we consideration. I would promise, sir, that should request the Executive Council to this will be brought before any meeting agree to a joint committee representa- that I attend for that purpose, but I tive of the Executive Sub-Committee, would also go further to say that ulti- the chairman of the Tourist Board, mately it should be linked with Onchan representatives of the Town Council Park as a complete tourist complex in with the Planning Committee with a this area. Why should Onchan suddenly view to a partnership arrangement draw a line, or why should Douglas, between the Government and the Coun- right where one is cheek by jowl right cil owing to the magnitude of this up against the ether, it is called a scheme and the danger that it might be natural valley, Port of Ardour, well if curtailed or not proceeded with if this that is so let us make it a natural partnership could not be achieved. Now secteunce that Onchan and Douglas for that was sent to the Executive 'Council this purpose make a complete tourist by our Secretary on the 9th March, and complex in the area, that is perhaps as we have been tremendously, exceed- something that he might consider at his ingly busy on estimates throughout the Commissioners' level. whole last week or so, the Executive Council has not met since then, but they The Deputy-Governor: That will be are meeting tomorrow as Mr Speaker the day! says and this item will be on the Mr McFee: Mr MacLeod mentioned Agenda, it is No. 9 on the Agenda if you the housing at Foxdale, I would say want the absolute detail. that we have included Foxdale in our

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1189 consideration for anything that comes certain that the Finance Board will see out of the £100,000 vote. to that requirement. I do agree that Mr MacLeod: Tell me what that with regard to Mr Simcocks, •this urban means. housing scheme is now recommended in our new Housing Report which has Mr McFee: It means anything. I can't been circulated and I will promise to Mr give you anything until detailed Simcocks early action if approved by schemes, the detailed investigation of Tynwald, but I would say this, that the need and until that need is satis- whilst we have been criticised for delay- factorily proved that these houses are ing our legislation of this kind, I have essential, I am not going to be prepared had an awful lot to do 'with the repair to say we will build 6 or 16, but we will and renovation of 'old houses and I can take into account the fact that •an tell you this, that you can pour your expression of need has been made and thousands of pounds into old property we will certainly look into the matter that will never come back to you, you in the same way as we will in other can wipe it off as good money going areas. after bad and it is not such a 'wonderful Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, could I idea as it may present Itself to be. ask one question please? There is a The Deputy-Governor: But you do figure of £10,000, as you know, for undertake to bring it forward? clearance. Mr Nivison: That is a different thing. Mr McFee: We are bringing it for- ward, sir, and we have already detailed Mr Corkhill: I hope it won't be like a scheme for presentation. last year, sir, withdrawn. The Deputy-Governor: It only wants Mr McFee: We did not withdraw it. the Rural Housing Act amended. It is This £10,000 which is included for Fox- only one section, it would not take dale clearance, the "deads" and culvert- many minutes to draft it I should think. ing is contained in our estimates and will be considered by the Finance Board Mr Faragher: Your Excellency, on a who will reserve the right whether they point of order. This is a very important will provide the monies for it. As far bit of business we are doing at the as we are concerned, we presented and moment and I feel it very hard to hear prepared the scheme and we will sup- what the speaker has to say when this port it and carry it out if we get the little debating society is going on all money. around me (laughter). I cannot hear. Mr Corkhill: Did you support it last The Deputy-Governor: Very well. I time? hope the hon. members will note what Mr McFee: Well what we did, we the hon. member has said. withdrew the small scheme last time Mr McFee: An urban housing scheme and have had it comprehensively sur- has been prepared and will be presented veyed for a proper scheme, because I with the housing report. Mr Bolton of think you grumbled, sir, the last time, the Council has asked when this is that it was a meagre pittance, £1,000. likely to come before the Court. I would I said — right, let us do the job right, hope at the earliest opportunity, take the thousand back and now we whether next Tynwald, or would you have put in a scheme of £14,000 for be satisfied if it came on next Tynwald, which we provided £10,000 this year. Mr Bolton? We would like it debated as Most of the schemes Mr Nivison men- quickly as possible, sir. tioned were the schemes coming back without a special Resolution, that cer- Mr Bolton: I just wanted to know tainly is the position and I am quite when, that is all.

Local Government Board Estimates 1190 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Mr McFee: Yes. It probably will quickly now and from an 'administrative appear on the next Agneda, however point of view we ought to function and that is in the hands of the Governor if it is not functioning then we can and not myself. Mr Bolton referred to blame our office and blame the chair- the rents, well, in the housing report man for not seeing that the office is which will be debated in the near future working. which has been circulated, a complete Mr Kaneen: How long has the com- new rent structure has been suggested posting scheme been on the stocks? and the question will be determined at that time. Whilst I do agree that Mr McFee: Well that is not our fault, perhaps the Local Government Board it is not our delay, all these delays, is a very hard and overworked Board although they 'appear to be long delays, (I will have a little to say about that you find that there has been physical later) I would like to ask — can you obstruction to nearly 50 per cent of the pinpoint or indicate where we are really schemes we try to do. You have got to neglecting our duty-- fight lawyers, you have got to fight Mr MacLeod: Yes, with the housing landlords, you have got to fight every- at Foxdale. (Laughter.) thing, it seems to be put in your way as an obtacle because you want to Mr McFee: Ah, well yes, that is the make progress and develop in the kind of thing you see, when you go into Island. and analyse these criticisms, it just shows-- Mr Bolton: Who are you fighting at Mr McLeod: Why don't you go and the bottom of Broadway? look at them? Mr McFee: At the bottom . . . the Mr McFee: What flimsy foundations Planning Committee (loud laughter). on which these criticisms are based. Mr Kneale and the Private Enterprise Scheme. This, sir, was debated two or Mr Bolton: Ramsey as well. three months ago and the scheme was Mr McFee: Now let me talk about further lengthened for two years. If the Ramsey. Thirty years ago they started Court was mindful at that time to have this job, and if it was left to Ramsey it it amended as you suggest they could would be still as it was 30 years ago have done it on the scheme itself, how- or 20 years ago. ever, it will be debated again on the Mr Kelly: We have not got the re- housing report sources. Mr Callister: It certainly will! Mr McFee: Yes, thanks for that. Since I came on to the Local Govern- Mr McFee: And Tynwald then of ment Board four years ago there has course again I hope will decide. I still say a tremendous surge. I challenge anybody though, no matter what Mr Callister to measure on any Board's progress says, that the scheme is much cheaper the amount of work and what has been for the Government Purse than build- accomplished in four years of the recent ing •housing estates. If people are per- activities of the Local Government suaded to build their own homes which Board compared against the progress --(interruption) Ito build a local and 'activities of any other Board in authority house today probably over Tynwald. We are doing our job, we are the same term of years to which you seeking to do it, we have been held up refer must cost at least £2,000 a house. th's last year or so because of lack of whereas this is much less— pErson.nel in our offices. Mr Canister of Mr Callister: Who for? the Civil Service Commission, is looking into that, and he has been most helpful Mr McFee: For the Government and this is going to be tidied up very Mr Callister: For retired people.

Local Government Board Estimates TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1191

The Deputy-Governor: Not at all. For legislation, you reduce 50 per cent of the ordinary person who can afford it. the Local Government Board work and you would make Local Government it- Mr Nicholls: Young men in permanent self an efficient, functioning authority jobs. which it is not at the present in the Isle Mr Callister: You give them £1,000 of Man and that is the real answer. towards it. They can well afford it. Mr Callister: Labour Party policy for Mr McFee: Well even if we give them 40 years. £1,000 we are still giving £2,000 for the Mr McFee: It is comon sense and it occupant of a Corporation house. is the real answer and there is no doubt Mr Callister: If they were working about it that 50 per cent of our job is men from 16 to 60 far more. making decisions and planning the areas in the Isle of Man because the Mr McFee: This question of the little persons cannot do the job them- deficiency payments on Lezayre Road. selves. This will be ultimately arranged with the Ramsey Town Commissioners be- Mr Nivison: Could you just outline cause they are extending their boun- briefly what you have done for Onchan daries and it will come within this 4s. in the .past ten years. Is the word rate which they offered towards this "nothing" correct? re-development of the area and for the Mr McFee: No. We have met— moment, unless the extension is com- Mr Nivison: No, no. Doing the work pleted before the houses are finished, you said. the deficiency would be •borne by the Government oro tern. Mr Moore and the Mr McFee: Well Onchan are a very supervision of Laxey — Now this is a efficient body--- very important question, gentlemen, Mr Nivison: Thank you. and it has been referred to here by Mr Mr McFee: I admit. The Highway Bolton with regard to overloading the Board does their roads Local Government Board. Now one of the chief reasons why we are over- Mr Nivison: We are not talking about loaded is the fact that the Local Gov- the highway contract. You don't do ernment Board today is doing nearly all highway work anyway. the local authority work which is really Mr McFee: Their close proximity to their responsibility and their finance, Douglas of course, has made them a but because they will not or cannot viable unit, that is all I am asking for, function we have got to do the work that local authorities should become for them and Mr Moore says we should viable units in the community. Mr have even supervised and watched them Crowe—estimates are to be taken into throwing the stones on the Laxey foot- account when' framing a budget. I ball field! Now this is the kind of thing thoroughly agree, sir, and may I assure we are up against (interruption). the Finance Board on the question of the 50 per cent of our work today, ask the Lezayre Road housing scheme—it was members, is meeting local authorities, because we have just received the ironing out their problems, trying to tenders, we have opened them, we have make decisions for them and financing presented now in detail the whole their schemes and this brings me to a scheme to you, sir. We had hoped, and I very fundamental point to which the still hope that the Court will say on this • hon. member is leading, and that is this. occasion — we think this is a good The time has come when we have got to scheme—it is time work was started in face up to either larger regional amal- Ramsey, get on with the job, consult gamation of local authorities or one with the Finance Board and Executive central body and there in one stroke of Council. If they think by agreement

Local Government Board Estimates 1192 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 and approve that this scheme goes this address, read it during your .on, well get on with it and just report luncheon interval and he will be in the to the next Tynwald and say OK. boys, fortunate position of simply getting up the houses are commenced. For good- and moving the report be taken and ness sake don't stand on ceremony, red framed and ask for questions. tape and all this kind of thing and hold The Court adjourned for lunch. up what is a very important job to start. This is about all I think I have to say. Mr Coupe: You haven't answered my FIRE SERVICES RATE ORDER— question. APPROVED Mr McFee: My answer to that, sir, is The Deputy-Governor: The next item that we are keeping the fund alive. We is item 20, the Fire Services Rate Order, have stated a sum provisionally at 1966, the chairman of the Local £20,000, this item which we provided Government Board to move. has not been spent in the past and Mr McFee: I move the resolution probably won't be spent this year, it is standing in My name, sir. provisional only, we have had one appli- (1) That, in accordance with Standing cation only under the scheme yet, and Order 162 (3) the provisions of Standing no approvals at all, because that one Order 162 (1) be waived to enable the application did not meet the require- following resolution to be considered. ments of the scheme. I present the (2) That the Fire Services Rate Order, 1966, estimates, gentlemen, and ask for your made by the Local Government Board on the 4th March. 1966, be and the same is support and approval of what we have hereby approved. presented as our policy this year. This was agreed. The Deputy - Governor: Well, Mr Speaker and hon. members you have heard the reply. Those in favour of the motion say aye. ESTIMATES—MANX ELECTRIC Members: Aye. RAILWAY BOARD—APPROVED The Deputy - Governor: To the The Deputy-Governor: Item no. 22. contrary The chairman of the Manx Electric Railway to move, Mr Callister: No, and I wish that to be recorded in Hansard. Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I beg to move: The Deputy-Governor: Just a solitary That Tynwald requests His Excellency, in voice that says "no"? I declare the consultation with the Finance Board, to give motion carried with Mr Callister, the consideration in framing the budget to the hon. member for North Douglas, voting Estimates of the Manx Electric Railway Board as shown in the Book of Estimates for against. 1966/67. Mr McFee: Your Excellency, could I I propose to take a leaf out of the hon. press the question of Lezayre? Speaker's book and I intend at an The Deputy-Governor: You would not appropriate time to move the Manx be wise if you did. There is too much Electric Railway estimates en bloc but money involved in it, I would not do it. before doing that I would like to read You would probably find a reaction. the statement which has already been Now there is one thing, the hon. circulated. Many members of Tynwald member for Castletown has circulated Court may believe that the statement to you all his address and he is which I am making on behalf of the suggesting to you that you might like board should not be made on account of to adopt a businesslike method about the pending report of the Transport

Fire Services Rate Order—Approved.—Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved.

TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1193

Commission. This memorandum is in assistance of the Tourist Board we have no way designed to anticipate in any been able to give grandstand seating to way or indeed to influence the ultimate the many visitors who choose this proposals of either of these two vantage point. With the aid of a mobile commissions of enquiry. That is, of bar and the occupation of the station course, the Transport Commission and master's office we have been able to the Traffic Commissioners. In a few provide refreshments here. These months time a new and possibly an arrangements, however, seem to us to entirely different board may well be be always of a temporary nature, but given the responsibility of looking after as the cost of permanent buildings or the affairs of the Manx Electric the adaptation of the former Air Railway. I and my colleagues believe Ministry building there, is extremely that a realistic and factual report high, it is not now our intention to put together with proposals for the future forward any scheme of this nature this should be laid before Tynwald at the year. The installation in each Snaefell present time. The board has been in car of a good recorded commentary office almost five years and whilst we do describing the journey, and which we not claim to know all the answers to would like to improve by reducing the many of the diverse problems—we have, noise level of the car gearing, has added we believe, the awareness of many of to the interest of the passenger on the them. The statement and the details of Snaefell line, whilst background music the revenue and capital estimates are provided at both Laxey station and the given in the printed book pages 62 to Summit hotel, has been greatly 65 and page 88 respectively, but before appreciated. The facilities provided at going into further detail I would like the Summit hotel are, we consider, very to say something about the problems of good indeed, and the extension we have running the railway, shaping the made to the quantity and quality of the present policy to suit changing souvenirs offered for sale continues to conditions. and taking a long term view be a source of pleasure to the visitor of future policy. During my term of as well as additional revenue to the office as chairman, I and indeed my board. The five-year development plan colleagues, have endeavoured to gave the board the opportunity of persuade the board to investigate and developing both Laxey and Ramsey if possible to try out any arrangement stations with consequent improvement that would add to the usefulness of the to the amenities of the local authority railway to the visitor, and at the same districts concerned. Whilst it is always time increase the possibility of further our aim to attract as many visitors as revenue to offset the inevitable rising possible to travel on the railway by cost of operation. In this connection advertising, assisting the local we have considered, at some length, the authorities in their efforts by running extension of new activities to include special cars, giving fare concessions for the operation of the proposed ropeway the special events as well as to old age lift to Douglas Head with further pensioners, visitors to conferences, and extension of a specialised form of special visiting parties, the rising cost transport along the Marine Drive to of operation has called for some Port Soderick: an a'ternative form of considerable adjustment in the fare transportation on Snaefell, and a more structure in an effort to minmise the permanent arrangement for catering for deficiency in our receipts and our the TT. races at the Bungalow. The expenditure. This, to some extent, may erection of a footbridge over the road- have been the cause of a decrease in way at the Bungalow has greatly the number of passengers we have increased the movement of passengers carried, but I am sure that the board during the T.T. races and with the have been justified in this, considering

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1194 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 the substantial increase in the rate of using the good rails taken out to wages which has occurred over the replace worn ones elsewhere, years. Our receipts, remaining at the particularly between the Bungalow and same figure for a couple of years, are the Summit. The work on the running now increasing showing that in spite of rails now requires a quicker pace and more intensive competition from all in addition a renewal of the centre forms of transport the railway still holds its own as an attraction. It is braking rail begins to become necessary, worth while mentioning at this point most certainly on the down line. that our revenue last summer increased Considerable thought has been given to considerably above our estimate to. the possibilities of changing over the suchan extent that we were able to direction of the running of the cars absorb a wage increase of some £4,000 thereby using the less worn up line without coming before Tynwald for centre rail for braking purposes. Now any supplementary vote, and at the time I will explain that, nobody understands of this report we hope that a further that, I will explain that later. But as sum of £3,000 will be underspent from this rail is not laid all the way to the our last estimates. We believe this to summit and added civil engineering be good particularly as the derelict work would be required between the condition of Derby Castle did nothing Bungalow and Laxey if we changed to enhance the "front door" of the Manx over the direction, the board con- Electric Railway. (Hear! Hear!) sidered that the problem had better be faced now rather than spend money Mr Nivison: And vice versa. on alternatives which would only have The Deputy-Governor: Now if the a limited life in any case. For after all, hon. member will take my tip he will steel rails, out in the open for 70-odd stick to his script. (Laughter.) years do deteriorate from the effects of Mr Colebaurn: This summer, we weather alone. The difficulties of have decided to keep our fares as last changing over the centre rail from one year, but unfortunately with still track to the other are insurmountable further wage increases we must and would not be practical. I have inevitably continue to follow these already, in another place, intimated that added costs with increases in fares if the cost ol renewal of the track, that we are to keep our deficiency within is from Laxey to Snaefell, would bounds. As well as attracting be approximately £145,000, and this it passengers to the railway it is part of is proposed to spread over ten years. the board's duty not only to keep the This figure compares favourably with line in a safe condition but to renew the estimate in the report to Tynwald in those portions where careful main- 1956, which was £69,000, wages having tenance cannot any longer be sufficient increased 70 per cent, and materials 50 to ensure this, So far we have renewed per cent, since that time. After very practically all the original rails on the careful consideration, with the details Douglas to Laxey section, those of an alternative form of transport remaining being a small section of between the Bungalow and the welded rail and those installed in the summit before them and the obvious 1920's which in due course of time will adverse effect of losing the attraction be required to be renewed. We have of a Snaefell link from Laxey to the now arrived at that point, as has Douglas/Laxey section, the board has already been indicated in the report to decided to continue to put forward the Tynwald of October, 1956, when the original programme laid down in the question of the renewal of the Snaefell report, that is the 1956 report, and in rails becomes imminent. Over the the capital estimates we are asking for years we have been renewing the rails a quantity of running rails and sleepers from Laxey upwards on our line, to proceed with the work. The line

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1195 from Laxey to Ramsey is a very fine and if we kept the same level of fares scenic route much enjoyed by visitors, throughout the year the number of unfortunately this section is the most passengers travelling would undoubtedly uneconomic part of the undertaking: be so low that a continuation of the the number of passengers carried being service would most certainly not be in the proportion of approximately 67 warranted in any way. Our main per cent. to Laxey, 16 per cent. to concern in dispensing with the winter Snaefell and 17 per cent. to Ramsey, service, as I have just stated, and I whilst the approximate proportion of want to emphasise this, is the loss to the people of Maughold of their service receipts being only 12 per cent. to and also our difficulty in finding suit- Ramsey 25 per cent. to Snaefell and 63 able work in the winter for the present per cent. to Laxey. We do not intend traffic staff who are our key men in the to make any recommendations on the summer. We could help the Maughold future of this section that is the Laxey people by running one car each way to Ramsey section, until we have had during the hours of 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. an opportunity of studying the final But the deficit on this would be in the report of the Transport Commission. nature of £1,000. We might also come It should, however, be very strongly to some suitable arrangement with the borne in mind that the Manx Electric older members of our traffic staff so as to Railway must not, and I repeat, must be certain of their specially skilled ser- not be judged on its purely commercial vices in the summertime, but however value unto itself. Besides being a very we may contrive to relieve the situation big tourist amenity to the Island as a the decision to close down in the winter whole, it supports to a considerable is one, which on the basis of facts, must degree the economy of both Laxey and eventually be decided by Tynwald Ramsey by the numbers of visitors it itself. Now before going on I want to deposits each day in these two resorts. say this about closing in the Winter. The cost of new rolling stock is We had long and many discussions at prohibitive and we are therefore not the board room on this policy, and I thinking of any renewals in this must say straight away now that my direction in spite of Mr Nivison's nasty vice-chairman, Sir Henry Sugden and remarks about our cars this morning. Mr Moore, member for Gar, are We consider that the present stock can completely opposed to closing down in be adequately maintained for the the winter. I must say that in fairness purpose for which it is required. The to them. present policy, then, is to run the rail- way in all its aspects as efficiently as Mr Speaker: Who produced the we can. In examining the cost of this memorandum then? we have had a hard long look at the Mr Colebourn: I did possibilities of saving by closing down the winter service and reducing the The Deupty Governor: Carry on. length of our daily traffic operations in Mr Colebourn: It is a wish of a the summer. Our calculated deficit over majority of the board that I should come a 36-week period in the winter on last before Tynwald at an early date with a year's figures was approximately £5,200. resolution under the terms of section 17 The receipts were £3,800 and the of the Manx Electric Railway Act of expenditure £9,000 of which £7,000 1957, to obtain approval from the Court represented wages. We would say, to close the entire line down from the however, that the number of passengers last week-end in September until Easter carried was approximately 20,000 each of the following year. (Hear, hear!) way, or about 550 each week. The fares Now I must say in fairness again to charged in the winter are less than half the two gentlemen I named, Sir Henry of those charged in the summer months and Mr Moore, at the moment our

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1196 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 board is four strong and it was my this morning. One point which does, casting vote as chairman. (Laughter.) however, cause us some concern is the I will go straight on. However, both growing congestion in the traffic on myself and Mr Dean keenly feel Douglas promenade, and the difficulties that we cannot support an enterprise of the visitor in boarding or finding which is solely devoted to a minority transport quickly to our Douglas of local people at the expense of public station at Derby Castle. Here as well funds. (Hear, hear.) Public funds, I as the question of the quantity of mean what we have got to—in all transport available, we hope to see both honesty we have got to remember that the Transport Commission and the it is public funds we are spending. As Traffic Commissioners make I have already stated, this is Tynwald's recommendations for changes which decision and I hope that the Court will not only be of decided benefit to today will give me and my colleagues the present operators but will be to the some guidance on this matter. We do ultimate advantage of the visitor who find, however, that our road haulage of wishes to make travel in the Island both goods is not the paying proposition it comfortable and interesting. Turning should be, considering the traffic is all now to the revenue estimates we require the year round and is not subject to some £3,600 above last year's estimates heavy seasonal fluctuations and in order due entirely to the increase, that is on to simplify our operations we have page 64 by the way, of 5 per cent in decided unanimously, to abandon this the basic wage charge, and in addition service, this traffic before incurring a sum of £1,367 over and above last heavy expenditure in the renewal of our year's estimate for loan charges. Last lorry fleet. We intend, actually, year our revenue increased over our closing down on the 31st of this month. estimate and we were able to absorb In looking to the future the board is the wage increases which had not been quite certain that the railway is an allowed for in the estimated expenditure. added attraction to the visitor and in Also it would appear that the Govern- time will become an essential form of ment treasurer will not require the transport rather than an alternative. whole of last year's allocated amount to That I am absolutely convinced of. I balance the accounts. It should be am saying that not so much as chairman noted that in comparing the receipts of the Manx Electric Railway but as a and expenditure of the board that the Manxman who lives and works in the figures are in a new form to previous Isle of Man. At present the years. This is due to the fact that we competition is intense: there has been have re-arranged our accountancy far too big an increase in the number system and the Government Treasurer of coaches, buses, taxis, private hire cars will now keep the books of the board, and private cars to cater even for peak and the allocations of expenditure have weeks in the summer. A fact that is been modified to give, at a glance, a admitted by all transport operators better picture of the details. Compara- alike, and with further road traffic tive figures for 1963/64 and 1964/65 anticipated, with an additional car have been extracted from our previous ferry, with consequent congestion of system but in some cases the exact streets and roads by parked vehicles, amounts for comparison could not be there will certainly be a decided role to ascertained as these were in a different play by any railway, I said any railway, form and approximations have had to not only Manx Electric Railway, with be made. Although we estimate that we a clear way. will require £.42,677 this year, with our Mr Coupe: At what cost? endeavours to make whatever savings Mr Colebourn: I don't think cost are possible and perhaps, with a fine matters from what I heard in the Court summer, a further increase in receipts,

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. T'YNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1197

we may be able, like we possibly will heard from members of the Finance do this year, to the extent of £3,000 or Board. (Laughter.) Now, sir, this staff so, to keep well within this estimate. is skilled in running the cars. Mainly Incidentally during the year we have they are drivers or conductors, but the returned to the Government treasurer conductors are in fact equally well able the sum of £4,221, the amount of our to drive and in the summer when we bank balance at the end of 1963 and have got our full service, as I think is £6,000 in the previous year. Now, well known, we take on temporary Your Excellency, and gentlemen, I am staff to act as, shall I say, conductors, going to move the estimates en bloc as who go along the cars and collect the I said at the start, but if there are any ticket money and so on. In the summer questions on this statement, or indeed we require every one of those per- on the estimates, I will do my best to manent staff virtually as drivers. They answer them. I beg to move. are the people we will be getting rid of Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, I to save this £7,000. Will we get them rise with reluctance to second and I feel back? Personally I am doubtful about it is possibly better if I express my dis- it. If we do not get them back we will agreement straight away. The hon. not be able to run the full summer service to meet the demands of the chairman of the Manx Electric Railway visitors. Now I think it is significant Board has given a very reasonable state- ment, except possibly in one respect and that in the summer period May, 1965 to September, 1965, into Ramsey, the I feel, in a very unfortunate respect. He cars carried 57,880 passengers. In what says that this was a majority decision I term the winter period, from the of the Board and gave the details of that previous September, 1964 to the April, majority. He also said that the Board 1965, they carried 19,678. So the winter have considered this matter over quite a service-- long period and that is quite true. Previous to, I think it was the last meet- Mr Nivison: In the winter time? ing or the last meeting but one of the Sir Henry Sugden: In the winter time, Board, when this majority decision was yes. reached, we had the advice of our late Mr Nivison: Where do all these people member of our Board, Mr Kneale, who come from? was a railway engineer and could there- fore give us expert advice. It was, I Sir Henry Sugden: Well they come, venture to suggest, because of his sir, from various places (interruption). guidance in this matter that a majority Mr Nivison: I watched the 8-45 a.m. of the Board, during his membership, leave the Douglas station this morning was not in favour of closing down in and there were precisely no passengers the winter. Now these are the considera- aboard. (Laughter.) tions which I think guided him and Sir Henry Sugden: That does not certainly guided me in this matter. As surprise me in the least because what I the hon. chairman outlined, if we close was talking about was not passengers down in the winter we save some £7,000 carried between Douglas and Ramsey, in wages, that is of course provided we but passengers carried into Ramsey. The get rid of the staff. Now many of that Manx Electric Railway, sir, serves an staff-- area which is not served by other means Mr Kaneen: The Highway Board of public transport. could use the staff. Mr J. M. Cain: Question. Sir Henry Sugden: Well, yes, thank Sir Henry Sugden: Question or not, you for that suggestion, sir, it is, as you that is a fact. will realise in a few minutes, as Mr J. M. Cain: Your Excellency, that impractical as other suggestions I have is quite a wrong statement to make. To

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1198 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 say that the M.E.R. is the only transport skilled staff under these conditions of going into Ramsey. intermittent employment? They are, I Sir Henry Sugden: Serving certain can assure you, absolutely essential for areas-19,678, that is the figure already the summer months and they are, I mentioned by the hon. chairman, who suggest we cannot employ them during in fact said 20,000. I have been more the winter months. I know that on the exact. Isle of Man Railway they tried doing this. They put the station-masters on to Mr J. M. Cain: 19,678-- the line maintenance. Even when they Sir Henry Sugden: Oh yes we did put them on to painting, in a couple of much better than you did, much better. days they were out, because of the Mr Corkhill: What is the winter blisters on their hands. These people I period? am talking about on the Manx Electric Railway would be just like that. By Sir Henry Sugden: From about the running a skeleton service—and it is a middle of September to the end of skeleton service—in the winter we can April. employ them. As I have already out- Mr Nivison: Thirty-six weeks. All lined, some of the summer drivers be- paying passengers? come conductors and that keens them Sir Henry Sugden: Yes, I think so, all in reasonab7e employment. I know there might have been a few—no, all the steam railway closed down in the paying. Now I think really there are too winter, but in the summer they did not, main questions which arise. One is the as we do in the Manx Electric Railway, inconvenience to our public, and after run with their trains such a full service all, I have given the figures even though and so their difficulties were not so the hon chairman of the Isle of Man great in this respect. steam railway seems to have discounted Mr J. M. Cain: What do you mean by them, but I can assure you they are a full service? accurate. Sir Henry Sugden: Well we run in the Mr J. M. Cain: In the winter? summer I think it is 10 or more trams Sir Henry Sugden: In the winter from a day because we put on extra trams the middle of September to the end of when they are needed. April. Mr J. M. Cain: You run those in the Mr Simcocks: About seven months? winter too. Sir Henry Sugden: Yes, seven. Sir Henry Sugden: No sir, no sir, we do not. Mr Kaneen: What is the average per journey? Mr J. M. Cain: How many a day? Sir Henry Sugden: Quite frankly I Sir Henry Sugden: I think it is five is have not worked it out, sir. it not? Four or five. Mr Bell: Mr Nivison has just given it Mr Colebourn: For or five each way? to us! Sir Henry Sugden: Yes. Now the other Mr Nivison: The statement does say. consideration is this. If you keen your Your Excellency. 550 passengers per rolling stock in reasonable use the whole week, the statement says, that is 80 Der time, it does not deteriorate nearly to day. Now how you get 19,000 out of that the same extent as if it is just left in a I don't know. shed for six months or so. After all, it is the same with a motor car really. We The Deputy-Governor: Will you carry all understand that. By running the on please? reduced services in the winter it gives Sir Henry Sugden: Now the other us reasonable time to maintain the problem is, are we going to keep our stock and we do need a good time to

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1199 maintain it because as the hon. chair- goods are roughly consignments which man has mentioned, it is old stock. Now, we pick up from say the Steam Packet, sir, those are really my main points, but and we deliver under an arrangement I have not yet mentioned the Transport with the Steam Packet to the addresses. Commission. They are all practical Parcels are those, shall we say, smaller points for keeping it running through- articles which just like the Isle of Man out. because I believe that to close down Road Services, they are delivered at, for the winter is the beginning of the say, the Douglas station and are carried end, just as it has been with the steam to the Ramsey station, or any other railways, and of that I feel there is intermediate station that is manned, really no question. such as Laxey, and from there they are picked up. Now, sir, I will just say in Mr J. M. Cain: This is the first winter conclusion we have actually closed down. The Deputy-Governor: How do you The Deputy-Governor: Well now the get your parcels to the Douglas station? deductions are perfectly fair. How do they get there? Sir Henry Sugden: Well possibly there Sir Henry Sugden: The person who I may have been a little Parochial be- wishes to send them brings them there. cause I live within close hearing dis- tance of the "toot, toot" of the steam The Deputy-Governor: Thank you. trains and I miss them very much in Sir Henry Sugden: In conclusion I the winter. They certainly do not run would reiterate that I feel to close down down our way. in the winter is just the beginning of The Deputy-Governor: Especially in the end. We ar:?. going to have heavier the mornings I suppose. maintenance on our rolling stock. We cannot hope to retain an adequate Sir Henry Sugden: Well it wakes me— number of skilled staff in order to run it used to wake me, sir, at 7 o'clock, a our full summer service. very good thing. Mr Bolton: Your Excellency, I do Mr Ca'lister: Buy an alarm clock! want to remind hon. members, sir, that Sir Henry Sugden: Now may I just I was a member of both the mention the Transport Commission? committees that considered the question This Commission was set up to make of the Manx Electric Railway 10 years recommendations •about the transport, ago, 10 to 11 years ago. The first among other things, within the Island. committee recommended that the rail- Why do we not wait to hear what they way should be closed down, and, Sir have got to say. Why do we try, and Percy Cowley was chairman of the possibly anticipate, or even nullify second committee which recommended suggestions that they may have to that the railway should be continued. make? I feel we are just a little inclined It was continued only by reason of a to do this with expensive Commissions resolution which was put to the Court which we set up. We accept what we by the hon. member of the Court at feel we like, we ignore the rest, and that time, Mr Irving, that at no time perhaps at times let them sink into should the cost of the Manx Electric oblivion. I do feel it is not unreasonable Railway exceed £25,000. Now I in any way to await this result, or their considered that it was a very foolish recommendations. Now I would add one thing to do because I knew full well word on a different matter. The chair- that it was a pious hope. Today we man mentioned that we were going to have a situation in which the deficit give up our goods service, we are not shown on revenue account is £42,677 .and going to give UD our parcels service. I capital exepnditure is envisaged at think hon. members may possibly be a £18,000, which means £60,000 being little confused about the difference, but spent on the Manx Electric Railway

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1200 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 during the coming year. It is quite easy It should be run all the year round or for the chairman to talk about the little not at all, and they very strongly bits that they have returned to the advised us not at all. However, treasurer, the estimate is there. It is Tynwald Court decided that the rail- going to cost approximately £60,000 of way should be run and the cost cash during the coming year to run the gradually mounts. Now to look at Manx Electric Railway, and I submit some of the matters that the hon. that it is not worth it (hear, hear) member has stated in his statement to whatever anybody may say. It is the the Court. Just to give you some idea talk of the visitors — look at the of the accuracy with which he puts Snaefell summit. The takings from the forward his facts. Paragraph 17—"A bar in the Snaefell Summit—E1,350 in renewal of the track would be a season—it is peanuts, it is extremely approximately £145,000 and this it is poor. I doubt very much whether any- proposed to spread over ten years. This body would wish to hold a boarding figure compares favourably with the house licence if they were only going estimate in the report to Tynwald in to take £1,350. The hotel could be, if 1956 of £69,000, wages having there was proper access to it by normal increased 70 per cent. and materials 50 traffic, a paying concern and a place per cent, since that time." Now let us that everybody would wish to visit who assume that it has all increased 70 per came to the Isle of Man, by getting there cent., materials as well. 70 per cent. in their own transport or with coaches. added to £69,000 is £118,000 which does But if they have to go there by Manx not compare with £145,000. How can Electric Railway then they will not go, he say that £145,000 compares favour- and I am quite sure that it could be ably with £118,000? It is being put a type of mecca. Now the whole of the forward carelessly with an effort to profit on the Snaefell Summit hotel can persuade the Court I suggest, to pass be summed up as being something less these estimates and to allow them to than £800. There is bound to be some get started on renewing the track up to charge for 'Joan charges chargeable the top of Snaefell, which the hon. against it, but without making any such member suggests will last another 70 charge it does not exceed £800. Then years. He says that the track, the we have got this question, this quibble present track, has been lying there about the winter travellers, 20.000 of for about 70 years, well if he puts them in 36 weeks. Naturally a number a new track down I take it that he must of them will prefer to go because some be assuming that it is going to be there of them are living very close to the rail- for 70 years. Now if you turn to way and they go at half fare. Well, you paragraph 20 he says ''the cost of the can always pick people up under those rolling stock is prohibitive and we are kind of conditions. The question of not thinking of any renewals in this closing in the winter. I would suggest direction as we consider the present was considered very, very carefully by stock can adequately be maintained for both the committees that considered the purpose for which it is required." this matter ten years ago, and it was So that by the time the track is worn considered that it was utterly inadvis- out the cars will be 140 years old! Now able to close the railway in the winter. I ask you—sooner or later if you put From the engineering point of view, the your hands to this you are tying damage that would be done during the yourselves to a payment of £145,000 to winter when it was not in use was one run a track up Snaefell, and you will of the main factors, and the experts we be compelled to buy rolling stock at had here from the mainland railways what? £30,000 a car? Something of advised that on no account should we that order. Now is the Court going at try and run it merely for the summer. this stage to bind itself to that foolish

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1201 expenditure when we know that every would hold coaches and cars, and I am other expenditure is going up? We are quite sure that the business to be done pressed this morning that the rents of at the top of Sn.aefell as a mecca for houses should be kept down so that motorists — and we are encouraging subsidies should be large. We are them all the time — would be much pressed that agriculture should receive better than taking the very few that go more assistance. We are pressed to up in trams. I think that the programme increase this, that and the other. How should be changed completely and this can we play about with these fripperies and extravagances? We cannot. We idea of replacing the railway and con- cannot have it all and it does look to me tinuing with the trams to take £1,350 that if we decide that we are going to in the bar of the top of Snaefell is com- go ahead with this particular capital plete foolishness. There again, the hon. expenditure on the Snaefell line we are chairman say "it should be strongly committing ourselves to an expenditure borne in mind that the M.E.R. must not, which will eventually mean a sheer and I repeat, must not, be judged on its waste. The suggestion is that the purely commercial value." What are we board has decided to continue to put judging it on? What is it for? £60,000 forward the original programme laid is, I calculate, at least 3s. for every down in the report, which I take it visitor that sets foot on the Isle of Man means to continue to run the Snaefell in the summer. Every staying visitor, at line and the Ramsey line. The least 3s. It means more than £1 per circumstances today are entirely head for every member of the popula- different from what they were in 1956, tion of the Isle of Man. Now don't forget in that at that time the Snaefell line that we are constantly piling these did not call for this renewal which is things on, that we say we are doing for required today. The circumstances are the visitor in general. The Wild Life entirely different and we cannot now Park is another 25 per cent. of this, for take note of a report which was made the visitor. It is Quite possible that some ten years ago. things have got to be done for the visitor, but it is time we took stock, it Mr Mc Fee: What is your alternative? is time we took stock of the things we Mr Bolton: Now the alternative is to are doing for the visitor free, which shut it. We could for a great deal less everybody who is catering for the than £145,000 as I suggested 10 years visitor has got to pay for out of the ago, construct a road from the Bungalow profits he makes. We must look at these to the summit to allow everybody, with things and we must decide whether or coaches, with cars, to visit the Summit not they are worthwhile. All these Hotel and it would be a constant— matters have got to be added, I suggest, to the estimates of the Tourist Board in Sir Henry Sugden: Question. order that we shall arrive at the full Mr Bolton: It is possible and it was amount that we are spending on the estimated in 1956 by the then Surveyor- attraction of visitors. Here again I General that it could well be done for a would join issue with the hon. member figure of £25,000. I know that that —he suggests in paragraph 22, "that in figure can't be right today, but double time this railway will become an essen- it. Now it is no use the hon. and gallant tial form of transport rather than an member saying "Question" until that alternative." Now I ask you, is it thing has been carefully looked into. I reasonable? I travelled every day from know this. The track is not at the Ramsey to Douglas and back for a year present time wide enough to construct or two, nearly 46 years ago. I know the a road, it would have to be widened, but Manx Electric Railway as well as any- it was possible to widen it and to body does and if anybody is going to provide a car nark at the top which tell me that that, which is no better than

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1202 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 it was then and certainly, I would in the Manx Electric. I would suggest, suggest, worse, is going to form an Your Excellency, that they reduce the essential means of transport in the staff in the winter months considerably. Island in the future, then I do think he Not by paying them off, but by putting wants to think again. Furthermore, with them on loan to the other Boards, the the anticipated increase in motoring he Forestry Board, the Highway Board. suggests that it will be required to take That is what should be done in this the stress off the roads. Well now, in Island, not just keep the Manx Electric that event I suggest that the people who at the moment, carrying the staff that use it will have to pay for it. If the they can't afford. These could be on loan people who use it will have to pay for to the Highway Board. We heard the it, nobody will ride on it because the hon. chairman„ Mr Bolton, yesterday cost in fares will be far in excess of saying they were 44 short of their what they could travel for by some permanent staff, he could have had other means of transport. It will never perhaps a dozen from the Manx Electric be a practical proposition. It is a all this winter doing the job. There is a gimmick, it is a gimmick that this year lot of work that is not necessary to be is going to cost us £60,000 and if we done. Now then I would like to know agree to £60,000 then we are going to also from the chairman how much be faced with this capital estimate of money have they lost in passenger another £15,000 every year for 10 years, traffic since they put the fares up? That because we have put our hand to the is the thing. By looking back in the old job. I do believe, sir, that the Court will green books here we see a lot more not be likely to throw out the whole of receipts from traffic than what there the estimates, but I think that the was this last two years. Another thing I Board should be restrained from putting want to know, Your Excellency, is, how its hand to the renewal of the Snaefell many excursions — I did ask him this line, and I believe, sir, for that purpose last year—how many excursions did he I should move the deletion from the run to Laxey this year, this last capital estimates of three items total- summer? How many excursions did he ling £12,500 which relate to the pur- run to Snaefell—special excursions, that chase of sleepers for the Snaefell is I mean to say, cheap fares perhaps at section; the purchase of rails and fish- night time or mornings or afternoon, plates for the Snaefell section; and the them is the things that pay. I think that purchase of special gearing to reduce the Board of the Manx Electric is the noise for the Snaefell section. The Snae- wrong type of fellows for it, I think fell section, I believe, if the rails are they want a whole new Board on it, to gone, must be closed and must not be be truthful. Anyway that is about all I renewed. I would therefore move the have got to say, but I do think that they deletion of £12,500 from the capital should go into this possibility of loaning estimates of the Board, sir. the staff out to other Boards during the Mr Creer: Your Excellency, first of all winter months. can I find out from the chairman — Mr MacDonald: Your Excellency, on salaries and wages. The way they are first thoughts and having listened to the set out in the green book, in various hon. members for Castletown and sections. Now to total them all up they Ramsey, I still think myself that the come to £55,000 and-- time has come, as the hon. member of Members: £75,000. the Council, Mr Bolton, says, to have a Mr Creer: Well I make it £55,015, very very careful look at this thing. The salaries and wages. That comes to just figures given by the hon. member, Mr £9,000 less than the receipts that they Creer — he is not quite correct — the take in, so there must be something amount spent on wages and salaries is wrong if it costs that much for labour £75,960. Against that we have revenue

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1203

from passenger traffic of £36,000, 50 per to that we have had something of a cent. of the cost in wages and salaries. bombshell dropped upon us in an Gentlemen, this is nonsense. We can't estimate of £145,000 worth of capital go on saddling the next generation with expenditure anticipated on the Snaefell capital expenditure at the level we are section alone in the near future. I agree doing at the moment. We are not going with my colleague, Mr Bolton, and the to pay it, these loans go on and on and hon. member for Peel, it is something on, borrowing, borrowing 6 per cent. We which we just cannot entertain. Now cannot go on doing this and I would like the sentiments which have been ex- to second Mr Bolton's suggestion that pressed both on the Island and off the we do delete the three major items of Island, from a sentimental point of view capital expenditure until the Transport of the retention of these ancient institu- Commission, which is sitting at the tions will not bear examination at all. moment, gives this House a full report Now I am absolutely certain that if the on the viability now, and in the future Government had grasped the nettle 10 of this Manx Electric Railway. It is years ago and said, "away with the terrible that at the moment monies are Manx Electric Railway, we cannot being voted for the next generation to afford it" it would have been forgotten, pay, I don't think, gentlemen, we can go it would no longer be mourned in fact. on doing this. Now we are faced with the further agitation that the Government should Mr Kelly: Why shouldn't they pay take over the steam railway, another anway? even more ludicrous in my opinion, Mr MacDonald: What, the next genera- proposition — (hear, hear) — because I tion? am informed on very good authority Mr Kelly: Certainly, if they are going that if the Government was foolish to get the benefit. enough to entertain such a proposal, it would not be a question of merely pur- Mr MacDonald: They will get no chasing the railway now, but of facing benefit out of this. No benefit. Thank up to at least half-a-million pounds of you, Your Excellency. expenditure within the next few years Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency, I was to put it into proper and safe condition. about to second the amendment moved Mr Colebourn: On a point of order, by my colleague, Mr Bolton, when the Your Excellency, are we discussing the hon. member for Peel forestalled me steam railway or the and voiced the sentiments I was about to express myself. Now I was a member The Deputy-Governor: I allow a little of the Court at the time, some 10 or 11 licence but I think you ought to get years ago, when it decided to take over back on to the M.E.R. the Manx Electric Railway. I will admit Mr Nicholls: Quite right, sir, but I to that folly, if I might put it that way am simply mentioning that to show the now in the light of experience. It was, folly of the attitude which has been as Mr Bolton has pointed out, .agreed displayed towards these kind of under a strict condition that the deficit ancient institutions. The plain and should not exceed the sum of £25,000 a simple fact is, gentlemen, that we year. It might have been a foolish cannot afford to go on this way and condition to impose, but nevertheless it while I do agree with the speakers who was a result of a considerable amount have suggested that we should hold our of disquiet in the minds of members at hand for the time being and await the that time as to whether the Government report of the Transport Commission, was wise or not in purchasing the rail- simply because I do not agree with way. Now, sir, we have arrived at the Tynwald appointing Commissions to stage when the annual deficit is very examine the subject and then pre- nearly double that amount. In addition judging it and failing to wait for the

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1204 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 report. Personally, I am not very would not support any proposition which optimistic about their recommendations did not make money, on the Manx Electric or the steam rail- way for that matter. I do think that Mr Bolton: Who said that? we should await the result of that Mr Moore: I know you. I have been commission, the report from the here five years and one thing that I commission and not try and pre-judge have known about you, the hon. it, but I am certainly not going to member, and that is quite frankly that agree to this capital expenditure, to you will support nothing. committing ourselves to the capital expenditure even though we cannot Mr J. M. Cain: He will support any- finally commit ourselves until the thing to Laxey. budget in May, when the Finance Mr Moore: Destruction, that is all that Board will be able to tell us what we the hon. member can do. He would can afford and what we cannot afford, not subsidise anything, but I do support the amendment. Mr Bolton: He is not looking for Mr Moore: Your Excellency, I would votes! like to support the amendment Mr Moore: He is very well off and he naturally and I would also like to say would not help anybody, only help that I a0-ee entirely—the estimate I himself—when he voted for the abolition am sorry-- of surtax. The hon. member has in Mr Bell: Do you support the amend- fact, on every occasion that I have been ment? a member of this Court, tried to knock the Manx Electric. Mr Moore: The estimate, and to agree Mr Corkhill: I was under the impres- entirely with what the hon. member, sion it was the railway that was being Sir Henry, has said. We have discussed, not any member. discussed this on many occasions and it was only when we had the misfortune Mr Moore: I am allowed to deal with to lose a member who was very helpful any individual member. on the board, by the name of Mr Kneale, The Deputy-Governor: You can avoid who gave us very excellent engineering personalities surely. advice, that this opportunity arose of Mr Moore: The hon. member of the the chairman to move and in a half- Council has on every occasion during hearted sense, he has got the support of the last five years taken an opportunity the board. There was just one or two of knocking the Manx Electric Railway. points. The figures that have been suggested. A lot of people are talking Mr Bolton: And the previous five as if the Manx Electric Railway do years. not carry very many passengers. Now Mr Moore: I know that. So I would the actual number of passengers carried advise hon. members who are not too on the Manx Electric Railway is half a sure of the hon. member of the Council, million. that this is an old record. It will go on Mr Bolton: That is not enough, is it? just the same. If the Manx Electric is is still here in 10 years' time, we will Mr MacLeod: In how many years? still hear the record. The hon. member (La ughter. ) will also remember the Marine Drive. Mr Moore: This is in a year. Per year. and he did suggest that we build a road That is, the majority are in fact visitors to the top of Snaefell. I remember a who appreciate the Manx Electric ce; tain member suggest that we build a Railway. There are certain hon. road along the Marine Drive, and oh members in this Court, the hon. what a very reasonable cost it was member, Mr Bolton, for one, who going to be.

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved.

TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1205

Mr Bolton: Who suggested that? everyone else, we will make more Mr Moore: If I am wrong I apologise. money, or lose less anyway, but I would suggest that the Tourist Board are Mr Bolton: I think you had better. benefiting from a lot of our reductions. The Deputy-Governor: It is common In fact the whole tourist industry of the knowledge that the hon. member Island is receiving benefit, if not in opposed the Marine Drive from the very cash, but they are receiving some beginning, but he took over before the benefit from the reductions we give. Marine Drive was finished. This is something we have got to think Mr Moore: The point is that we are about. We are not talking now about a getting exactly the same promise here. railway that is just running from A to We are told if we whip the lines out we B. We are talking about a tourist attrac- are going to have a marvellous road up, tion, and if we don't continue such and it is going to be very reasonable. I things as the Manx Electric Railway, if suggest that exactly the same story was we start making every penny count and told about the Marine Drive, and look balance the books, all I can say is that at the bill we have got now. certainly within the next twenty or thirty years, we will have no tourist Mr Bolton: You are wrong. industry. Then I suggest we might as Mr Moore: I am sure I have read this. well pack up and hon. members of this It is exactly the same thing and I have Court will have a worse problem than no doubt the final result will be the we have got today. As far as the Isle same fantastic cost. We would get all of Man Railway is concerned, I would sorts of excuses, there would be turf, advise, as a member of the Manx there would be this, there would be Electric Railway, that we forget it. We that, we would probably be bulldozing have got quite enough expense with the until we were over the tops of our Manx Electric. I think that is all I have heads. I suggest that hon. members to say, except to support the amend- should bear this in mind when they ment, the resolution. listen to hon. members talking about Mr Kaneen: Your Excellency, I would putting a road to the top of Snaefell. He like to ask the chairman that if the suggested we put a top road to the top railway from Laxey to Ramsey was of Snaefell, and I am talking about the closed down, would those surplus rails disadvantages of putting a road to the be of any use to go up to Snaefell? Or top. The history of Marine Drive shows alternatively, if not, if the Isle of Man this, and I would suggest that the hon. Railway, steam railway, was closed and member Mr MacDonald might read a sold for scrap, would those rails be any little bit about the cost of the Marine use to go to Snaefell—in view of the Drive. fact that he is putting forward a cost Mr MacDonald: I have done. of £145,000 in that respect. I must admit Mr Moore: Mr Creer also did suggest that 10 years ago I was in favour about the increase in fares. I was not of the M.E.R. but then, as has been happy about the fares increase, but the already said, we put a ceiling on it of main point is, as'a member of the Manx £25,000 and ever since that date, or Electric Board, and the hon. chairman within twelve months, the price has will support this, we have offered all escalated from one figure to another, sorts of reductions, for conferences, for to the, present loss of round about pensioners, for anyone else, in a drive £42,000 estimated for the coming year, to make the Island more attractive to and it may well be plus. Now what does visitors. Now if the hon. members of amuse me is all this talk about the the Court want us to stick the price up drivers and conductors being skilled and charge the full price to the con- men on this job, and that you have ferences that come to the Island, to got to keep them in the winter. Did

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1206 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 you ever hear such drivel? Don't we well the traffic up there, they would be run- remember that the electric railway on ning on what would be an unsafe rail. the Marine Drive going to Port Soderick The Deputy-Governor: Not quite. This only used to work in the season and is part of a scheme to renew them you used to find your same drivers, gradually. same conductors and they used to take far more passengers than ever the Mr MacLeod: Yes. M.E.R. did. From Douglas Head to Port The Deputy-Governor: They are not Soderick, that was an electric railway saying it is not safe for running. You similar to the M.E.R. They found their have got to start to renew. men and it was able to work during the Mr MacLeod: But they are talking season and shut down during the here about taking good rails out of one winter. But here we are now, they have place and putting them in another become skilled men and the railway place. If they are good rails, why take cannot exist unless we have them. It is them out at all? In his speech he said absolute rubbish. If you hire these men, they were going to take the good rails you should do the same as we do in the from certain places and put them into Corporation—and I will say there is no some other more difficult job than to find a skilled man to drive a horse today, it is hard Mr Coupe: Because they are renewing to get a skilled man for that job—and the whole track. Can't you read the we have them and we give them work speech? on the roads in the winter time, and Mr MacLeod: I can read. If they are give them all the year round employ- good rails, why take them out? ment. I made the suggestion earlier on, Mr Coupe: Because they may not be that there was no reason why you the same length. turn them over to the Highway Board, and use them for the season and give Mr MacLeod: What other rails have them permanent work on the Highway they then? Your Excellency, I do know Board for the remainder of the year. As something about railways. I have had far as saying they are skilled men and experience of railways— the railway cannot exist without them, Mr Coupe: You have got an awful lot well, it is just sheer nonsense. of experience— Mr MacLeod: Your Excel:ency, I don't Mr MacLeod: I used to work for a know about running the railway in the railway. I worked for the African Rail- winter or the summer, but I think the way at a place called Bulawayo. I had best that can be done is to close it a job shooting lions because they were forthwith. Have done with it. I cer- eating the natives — (laughter) — they tainly believe that if the railway was couldn't lay the railway because the closed tomorrow, that not one single less people who were laying it were being person would come to the Isle of Man. attacked by lions The whole conception I do not think that very many people of building a road up to the Bungalow, come here to see this railway clanking I don't think is insurmountable. That along, by Laxey and the mountain. Now can easily be done. Roads have been with regard to this amount of money built over more difficut places than they have got to spend for laying a new Snaefell. I have seen roads built in track up to Snaefell, it has been pro- Scotland up to 4,000 feet. posed here, and I believe seconded, that Mr Coupe: At what cost? this money be not forthcoming. Now if the railway is in such a condition of Mr MacLeod: Never mind about the dilapidation that it requires these new cost. rails immediately, and that money is Mr Coupe: That's the answer, never not forthcoming, if they continue to run mind about the cost.

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1207

Mr MacLeod: I am not talking about be placed in due course in the new the cost, I am talking about the possi- transport system. I am quite at a loss to bility •of doing it. People said it is im- know what to do. I do hope that this possible, but the best thing is to ignore capital expenditure will not take place those kind of people. There is no diffi- until such time as the Transport Com- culty in building a road up to Snaefell. mission has given its findings and we That is quite an easy thing to do. I am are dealing with the transport of the sure and certain that if a road was built Island as a whole, and therefore I think up there it would be much more I have no alternative but to vote for beneficial to the visitors who come to the amendment. the Island than any Manx Electric Railway. If we rip up the rails of the Mr Coupe: Your Excellency, the Manx Electric Railway and all the other whole question that is before us at the railways that are in the Island, you moment, until we hear the findings of will have all these much more valuable the Commission, is — "Is the M.E.R. roads for the traffic to come and go on. worth retaining as a tourist amenity?" There will be no congestion on the roads That is the whole crux of the matter. As at all. I am strongly in favour, Your a transport system it is definitely out. Excellency, of doing away with this The late Mr Stephen, when he sat in railway altogether, just packing it up this seat next to me, always used to here and now before we spend any say that the horse trams on Douglas money on it, because I certainly believe Promenade system were not a form of that if more money is spent on this rail- transport. They were an amenity. The way, you are only chucking good money hon. and gallant member for Ramsey after bad. North has put the question, or answered it shall I say, when he said that if they Mr Canister: Your Excellency, just close down the railway in the winter it briefly—three points. All I have heard will be the beginning of the end. I be- is just sheer destructive defeatism. No lieve sincerely that if we close down constructive proposition; no one knows the railway in the winter that it will be where we are going; close down the the end, that there will be no hope railway just for the hell of it and let whatever for it. Because, Your Excel- anything happen. lency, if there are no jobs on the rail- Mr MacLeod: Build roads on it. way for the permanent staff, we will Mr Callister: You be quiet. You have lose them. Besides that, if we close had your say down the railway in the winter, how much money do we really think that we Mr MacLeod: I will not be quiet. will save? If we are going to run the Mr Callister: You are interrupting all railway in the summer, there will be the time with damn- silly nonsense. quite a number of these men required Mr MacLeod: Wrap up. to look after_ the permanent way and the maintenance of the trams. When Mr Callister: There have been no con- these_ boats of the Isle of Man Steam structive proposals for the future. I am Packet Company lay up in Barrow, do concerned about two things. Until the you think they are denuded of staff? Transport Commission has decided They are not. There are fires lit all over what is going to happen to transport these boats to keep them aired. And I In the Isle of Man, I fail to see that we would think you would need to keep do know what should happen to the these motors aired on these trams. I M.E.R. in the future. The second point would think that that would be com- is redundancy, and I claim that we can- pletely necessary. not just. make the staff of the Manx Electric Railway redundant, like that. It The Deputy-Governor: What about is a national responsibility. They could the engineers too, on the Steam Packet?

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1208 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, I out on the roadway. Now, sir, with re- think I can help the hon. member. We gard to the roadway to the top of don't intend to sack all our men at all. Snaefell, I would be very, very, very The number of men who would be re- much in favour of that, if it could be dundant would be nine or ten men. We done, because it would be such a mar- would keep the engineers to do our vellous view that more people would maintenance on our trams and motors, see, than see it now. Do the hon. mem- and other maintenance. bers of this Court know that coaches Mr Coupe: Your Excellency, Mr go to the top of the Mull hill, down at Kaneen, my hon. colleague is muttering Port St. Mary and Port Erin? They take "What did Douglas Head do before the them up to the top of the Mull hill for war?" Look, sir, and hon members, the wonderful view that they get there. unless we are very, very careful, this But, sir, I am prepared to wait for the Island can come to a standstill through Transport Commission report, but this shortage of men in the essential ser- I am absolutely sure of — that if this vices—and women. In the essential ser- railway closes down in the winter, it vices that are needed to run this Island, closes down for all time. and don't think for one second that this The Deputy-Governor: Mr Simcocks, applies only to this little Island. Let me and then we will 'adjourn for tea. tell you that this applies to Jersey and Guernsey, and make no mistake about Mr Simcocks: Your Excellency, this that. I am not referring to the railway. debate reminds me of this day seven It is all very well for the hon. member years age, when it •was my misfortune for West Douglas taking part in this to be a member of the Manx Electric debate. He doesn't want the steam rail- Railway Board, together with Sir Ralph way or the Isle of Man Electnc Railway Stevenson and the late Mr R. C. Stephen. to run, because all the people will be on At that time, sir, we had to make a his buses. It is as simple as that. decision whether we were to regard this Mr J. M. Cain: I agree. (Laughter.) railway as a visitor amenity or as a means of transport. We were restricted, Mr Coupe: You couldn't very well do as the hon. member, Mr Bolton, has anything else, could you sir? said, to £25,000 a year. We had a decision Mr Callister: What about declaring to make whether or not to spend some his pecuniary interest? thousands of pounds doing essential Mr Coupe: Look, let's forget that. work on the permanent way between Your Excellency, also, I remember—it's Laxey and Ramsey or whether to run a not very many years ago—when the fire winter service. We took the view that engines in Douglas used to be able to safety came first, but Tynwald disagreed warm up their engines in the fire with us. I think there are a number of station. Now they don't do that. They points we should make, sir. £25,000 in have got to take them for a run along 1959—what does that represent today the promenade, or wherever it is that in pounds, having regard to inflation? they go, under the insurance. They are It would be quite unrealistic to say that not allowed to run the engines. It £25,000 is a figure Which must remain dcesn't agree with the insurance policy, at that exact figure throughout. Even so they have to take them for a run the Labour Party, the British Labour along the promenade. Party, when bringing forward their de- fence policy, they suggested that the Mr H. S. Cain: It was the Rolls Royce ceiling for defence should be £2,000 engine people who insisted upon it. million, but they did not say it should Mr Coupe: The Rolls Royce engine be £2,000 million for ever, they said people, I thought it was the insurance. it shall be the purchasing equivalent of But I knew that it had definitely to go what £2,000 million is today. I think

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1209 therefore, sir, it is only fair and reason- Harris Promenade. Now, sir, we have a able, and just, that this Court should more enlightened view from the Douglas regard the expenditure of the Manx Corporation, in that they are contem- Electric Railway as being the equivalent plating—I say no more than contempla- of what £25,000 was seven years ago. ting—development at the Derby Castle. If we do that, sir, I think that the figures This, sir, will I am sure, give a well put forward by the hon. chairman are needed shift in the centre of gravity of not so very far out. I must say though Douglas, a shift which may well have that I cannot regard this railway as a a very considerable effect on the for- means of transport. I have had some tunes of the Manx Electric Railway. I years direct personal contact with it. I would think, sir, under those conditions am sure it is no more than a visitor it would be unwise and premature for amenity. I am sure that as a visitor us to take any decision today which amenity it should be closed down in the would end the life of the Manx Electric winter. I think though, sir, that we Railway, or its future development. I should not commit ourselves either one would suggest that we leave the esti- way or the other concerning the capital mates as they are, though I personally expenditure on the Snaefell mountain do not favour running the railway in track. I think that we should await the the winter time, remembering that the report of the Transport Commission. money_ to be spent this year, in terms When all is said and done, sir, if Tyn- of money's purchasing power, is not wald deletes these capital items from very far different from the £25,000 the estimates today, that's the end of it. which Mr Irving set as a target in 1959. If Tynwald deletes these capital esti- The Court adjourned for 'tea. mates today, that is the end of it— The Deputy-Governor: Gentlemen, be- fore proceeding, the more enquiries I Mr Colebourn: It is the end of the make the more convinced I am that the Manx Electric Railway. most convenient date, best in the Mr Simcocks: If Tynwald deletes interest of us all, would be to sit as late these capital items from the estimates as you will this evening and then today, that is it. If however they leave adjourn to Friday and get on with it. I them 'in, they are open for consideration hope so far as you are concerned if when the Budget comes to be pre- there is any possibility, if you have got sented. I don't know what the position some other Board meeting or something, is, maybe it is that the hon. member Mr that you will go out of your way to be Radcliffe, can advise us whether or not excused there so that we can get we can expect some indication from the through these important estimates. I am Transport 'Commission between now certain it will save you time in the long and the Budget, which might help run. Tynwald at that time. I do think this The Speaker: Your Excellency, sir, I though, sir, that we must have regard would be failing in my duty if I were to the facts. I believe that one of the not to convey to you the feelings, sir, chief reasons for the difficulty in run- that exist in the minds of some of my ning the Manx Electric Railway, both members who have already prior com- as a company and as a Board, has been mitments, not necessarily Board com- the fact that its terminus has been at the mitments, for Friday, and who would far end of Douglas promenade. For have honed, sir, that any adjournment many years the centre of gravity of would be until Tuesday. Naturally,, Douglas has been the Villa Marina. For Your Excellency's will prevails in this many years, when considering any form matter, but I wish to inform you of that. of development in Douglas, the city The Deputy-Governor: But there are fathers of this town have never been difficulties about Tuesda y. Both able to get themselves away from the branches are meeting for legislation.

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1210 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

The Speaker: Your Excellency, may I I do? Am I to attend the airports just point out if we are sitting on Friday meeting or the Keys will not sit on Tuesday. The Deputy-Governor: No, I say you The Deputy-Governor: That is entirely should give precedence to Tynwald. a matter for you. As far as the Legisla- Mr Bell: Your Excellency, a matter tive Council is concerned, it is important of this nature did occur during last that they should sit on Tuesday. Well year's estimates, when His Excellency would you like just to test it, gentlemen? was presiding, and he did concur with We must have a quorum of the Keys the view that was expressed from the and I would ask you, just in your own House of Keys, that Tuesday has always interests I would say, if it would be been the most appropriate day for possible for you to turn un on Friday. adjourning. Mr Corkish: Well, Your Excellency, The Deputy-Governor: I quite agree. the Health Board have got a meeting on I am not arguing about that. But you Friday morning. have got a special case here, where this Mr Kerruish: Your Excellency, is it is your fourth day of this budget, which not possible to make an effort and is exceptionally long. There is also an important meeting of the Legislative finish all our business today? Council on Tuesday and I say that Members: Impossible. parliamentary business takes precedence. I Mean, so far as I am Mr Bolton: I would very respectfully suggest, sir, that Tuesday is preferable concerned myself, I try to avoid sittings to Friday. I find that with engage- of my Court because of sittings here ments that I already have that Friday and I make a point of that if I can. is going to be very, very difficult. We The best way to test the feeling is for know that we have difficulty with a Mr Kermeen, the Clerk to Tynwald, to quorum of the Council. We have only call out, and those who can come on six of us altogether. Friday, will they kindly say aye, and those who cannot come — it is a The Deputy-Governor: And we are voluntary matter—will they say no. going to be short for two sittings, Mr Radcliffe is going to be off the Island. The voting resulted as follows:— Mr Nicholls: The Airports Board have In the Keys— their monthly meeting on Friday after- For: Messrs Corkhill, MacLeod. noon, sir. Kerruish, P. Radcliffe, Moore, The Deputy-Governor: Yes, but Tyn- Quayle, Creer, H. S. Cain, Simcocks, wald, after all is said and done, Faragher. Coupe, MacDonald, Tynwald must take precedence over it. Kelly, Sir Henry Sugden-14. This is the place where you are getting Against: Messrs Crowe, Colebourn, your money. You are only subsidiary Callister, Corkish, Bell, Kaneen, to them, and that is why I am asking Kneale, J. M. Cain. and the you to make a special point if you can. Speaker-9. I can only ask, I can do no more than In the Council— that. I think the best way to deal with For: The Attorney-General, Messrs it, just to test the feeling, if Mr Kermeen McFee and H. H. Radcliffe-3. would be good enough to call the names out in the Keys, and if members can Against: Messrs Nicholls, Bolton and make a point of attending on Friday Nivison-3. will they kindly say aye to it as it is Mr Kneale: I move that we meet on called out. Tuesday next, sir. Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, now Mr Colebourn: I second that, Your we have a meeting on Friday. What do Excellency.

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1211

The Deputy-Governor: Very well chairman to come forward with a then. At the end of the sitting today, Board divided equally on an issue such the Court will be adjourned until Tues- as this, on a casting vote of his own, day next. and put forward a memorandum con- Mr McFee: I move, Your Excellency, taining proposa1s such as this, sir, this that the question before the Court on is in fact not fair to this Court. I be- the agenda, be now put. lieve, Your Excellency, that the justifi- The Deputy-Governor: I think that is cation for this railway's continuation is a little premature. Just let us have one stronger today than was the case or two more. when the hon. member of the Council, The Speaker: Your Excellency, out of Mr Bolton, so ably opposed its continu- the welter •of debate that we have had ation many years ago. In the course of this afternoon, brought on by what I time we have seen the Isle of Man can only describe as the irresponsible Railway fold up, and it is in the process presentation of a memorandum by the of fading away. It is doubtful, I should chairman of the Health Services Board say, on the reaction of the Court today, —(prolonged laughter)—I will try again. that Government would take up the It is amazing as we look at a glass burden of that particular railway—pos- darkly. Now, Your Excellency, I can sibly only one section of it, if any. Never- but reiterate what was supposed to theless, Your Excellency, it is quite have been in my mind, which was that clear that road congestion is increasing, the chairman of the Manx Electric and in addition I think we must always Railway Board. There have been, Your bear in mind that despite the fact that Excellency, two speeches which I be- many members have Pointed out that lieve have made worthwhile contribu- this railway is not, shall I say, a traffic tions to this debate. They were the bearing line, it does as Sir Henry has speeches of the hon. member Mr Creer, indicated very capably, carry some and the hon. member Mr Simcocks. I 19.000 passengers in and out of Ramsey make this point, Your Excellency, be- during the winter months. Many of cause I too feel somewhat concerned them are resident in a parish which is by the heavy demands that are being not fully served by the Road Services, made on the public purse at the present sir, and again, many of them new resi- time. I am of the opinion that we are dents who have built adjacent to this indeed carrying possibly too many track because of the very service that maintenance staff in the winter for the is being provided by the Government. requirements of this railway. It is the Now. Your Excellency, we have been reason, sir, for my welcoming Mr Creer's told by the hon. member, Mr Bolton, speech, because he indicated that with that at the cost it is not worth it; that transfer of staff between Boards, it is we indulge in fripparies and extrava- possible the liability in that connection gances; we indulge in such things as could be brought down, while yet retain- wild life parks. These could be regarded ing key men for summer work. Mr Sim- as fripperies and extravagances. It has cocks made the point that it was appro- even been said that the people behind priate to leave the estimates as they it should be put in cages. But let us are at this stage. He pointed out that the put ourselves, Your Excellency, in the railway was an amenity railway in his place of a visitor coming to this Island, view, and that in his view it should looking for the Island's amenities, other close in the winter. That point has, of than the bars which abound. And per- course, already been ably dealt with by haps, coming to the conclusion that if the hon. and gallant member for Ram- the Island didn't pull up its socks, it sey, Sir Henry Sugden. Now, Your would be scarcely worth a repeat visit. Excellency, I mentioned irresponsible There is the need to maintain the odd presentation, and I think, sir, for any out-dated railway system which is

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1212 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 unique. There is the need for wild life The Speaker: The vote I have looked parks. There is the need for those at was E99,500 and that will do to go amenities which are not of the hard on with. And, Your Excellency, it was cash variety; which have a definite to produce 150 tons of tarmacadam a appeal to our business men undoubtedly. day, this modernisation, and the High- Let us remember that it has the effect way Board confidently told this Court of an indirect appeal to our finances, that eight to ten miles of Blaw-Knox because although they are costing us surface would be placed each year. money, they are helping us to earn Mr Bolton: Subject to having the money, gentlemen. Now, this afternoon, money. in an endeavour to fall this particular The Speaker: Your Excellency, the vote, the hon. member of the Council, money question has only come up in Mr Bolton, played the same old card the last year or two. This was 1956 and that he has played on several occasions instead of 80 miles minimum of Blaw- before—the road to the summit. How appealing it sounds. No liabi'ity MT Know surface, I don't suppose you will find 18 in the Isle of Man today. So Bolton says, for costs on the Marine much for estimates given 10 years ago. Drive, must ever be placed on his So much for figures produced to this shoulders, and no estimate for £25,000 Court on which we were asked to give expenditure for a road to the summit a decision—as unreliable as the figures must be regarded by this Court as be- ing in any way accurate that were produced for the Manx Electric Railway. Now, Your Excellency, Mr Bolton: I didn't give that. we have had as a seconder to this reso- lution, the hon. member for Peel. He The Speaker: I said it must not be re- came to us with a flourish of trumpets, garded as in any way accurate. I agree a Manx Nationalist whose first action with you there. was to say "Out with Manx place Mr Bolton: You are suggesting it. names", and whose second positive approach seems to be, "Out with the The Speaker: I was not suggesting it. Manx Electric Railway." Your Excel- I was saying that no estimate of the lency, I do hope that the hon. member past can be regarded as accurate today. for Peel will, in fact, take the oppor- Mr Bolton: That is not what you said. tunity of having a second look at this The Speaker: And that any figure of problem, and during the summer months acquaint himself with the carry- £25,000 must be regarded as quite out- dated. ing capacity of this railway. My hon. colleague has mentioned 500.000 people Mr Bolton: We know. I said it. in the course of the year. Let us ask The Speaker: Yes. I am confirming it. ourselves in the event of the closure of Mr Bolton: Thank you. this railway, disregarding for the moment its scenic value, who else would The Speaker: And I am going to con- carry that traffic? And in what condi- firm, Your Excellency, also, sir, for the tions? Now. Your Excellency, you can information of the Count, points which say the Road Services, but they haven't the hon. member made in connection the ability to do it. Your Excellency. we with road construction years ago, and come then to the question of Snaefell. which have equally Droved to be un- Now the Snaefell problem is practically reliable. If you will forgive me, sir, at as old as the railway itself and the much the same time as the Manx chairman, in putting forward this Electric Railway was being reduced. memorandum, is aware as I am that the Highway Board decided to modern- there is the possibility of turning brake ise. At a cost of £99,500 rails on Snaefell, which will render Mr McFee: £103,000 wasn't it? that track effective for many years to

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. T'YNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1213

come. It is surprising that we should hon. member Mr Simcocks, has sugges- have noise eliminators at a cost of ted and let the Finance Board deal £1.500 when in fact, perhaps rails where with it, and the Court in due course, they are needed would be more appro- but not today. priate. Now the hon. member, Mr The Deputy-Governor: We will have Kaneen, has said that in the old days just one more and then I will put the you could get sufficient staff on the question, I think. Douglas Marine Drive railway, or Dou- glas Head railway, whichever railway Mr J. M. Cain: Your Excellency, when it was, during the summer months. But I spoke against the first resolution—on gentlemen, the policies of this Court keeping the Manx Electric Railway have changed that position. Today we going—I mentioned the term, "derelict are living in an age in which, thank railway." During Mr Speaker's speech God, there is practically full employ- at that time, he mentioned that nobody ment for every man who either wants it knew more about derelict railways than or is able to do it, and when you dis- I did. He must now agree that I am charge men today, they are not so consistent and that I know what should readily going to take up winter work happen to derelict railways. schemes, or seek them. They are going The Speaker: Your Excellency, on a to seek all-the-year-round jobs, a point of order, I do raise the hon. mem- thing we have been encouraging them ber's position of pecuniary interest, sir. to do for a long, long time. The Deputy-Governor: It is no direct Mr Kaneen: Do what we do with the pecuniary interest. He is dealing with men driving horse trams. the M.E.R., he is not dealing with the The Speaker: Your Excellency, the Isle of Man Railway. If we were dis- hon. gentleman indicated the difficulty cussing the continuity of the Isle of in that connection, and if we lose touch Man Railway he would be in a different completely with the M.E.R. personnel position altogether. who are key men, it is going to be ex- Mr J. M. Cain: Thank you, Your tremely difficult to run the railway. Excellency. Finally, Your Excellency, if I may Mr Corkish: Your Excellency, on a touch on the odd position of the hon. point of order, the buses are directly member for Glenfaba, who is portray- under the chairmanship of the hon. ing the beauties of that salubrious area member. he represents at Foxdale, the hon. mem- ber Mr MacLeod, has .appealed for The Deputy-Governor: They are not Government assistance and who now, part of the M.E.R. I make the ruling in turn, wishes to close a railway that anyway. I am familiar with this legal opens up some of the finest scenic point. It is easy to me. Carry on. panoramas in this Island. He has said Mr J. M. Cain: I wonder does Mr turn it into road. Turn the other railway Speaker know the capabilities of the track into a road. Gentlemen, those of buses and what they can carry? But, you who know these tracks, know full we are not come here today to close well that any such suggestion is quite down the Manx Electric Railway. The out of this world, and in consequence, first amendment proposed by the hon. Your Excellency, these thoughts are in member of the Council is that we do keeping with many that have been ex- away with some capital expenditure. pressed this afternoon on the spur of Before I sit down, I am going to take the moment without considering the a leaf out of the chairman of the Manx problems. I appeal to the Court to take Electric Company's book and propose a little time on this one, don't be hasty, that we close the railway for the don't be stampeded into accepting the winter. That has not been done, be- amendment. Let it go forward as the cause I don't know in the chairman's

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1214 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 speech whether that was mooted or was length of our daily traffic operations in not mooted. the summer" There are two things in Mr Colebourn: There is no resolution that paragraph that are important to for that before the Court. the policy of this Court — closing down in the winter and reducing the length Mr J. M. Cain: No, but if I proposed of our daily traffic operations in the that, that can be done. summer. I can only consider, Your The Deputy-Governor: Just a moment, Excellency, that they have been running you point out, don't you, that there is a too many trams in the winter and too section of the Act under which we many trams in the summer. If that is would have to put a resolution on the even brought out by the chairman, agenda for that purpose? there must be some weakness in the The Attorney-General: I don't think organisation. Now another point I it can be moved, Your Excellency, at would like to mention, Your Excellency, this stage. is the difference between goods and parcels which you yourself mentioned The Deputy-Governor: Not now, not when the hon. and gallant member for at this stage. You mentioned to me there Ramsey was speaking. He said they is a provision somewhere where you were now going to give up their goods have to go to Tynwald under the '55 services, but they were going to con- Act, to enable you to close the railway, tinue their parcels. How, how, how? section 17. So I couldn't accept that as an amendment. Mr Moore: On a point of order, Your Mr J. M. Cain: But it will eventually Excellency, the hon. member as a mem- come. ber of the Isle of Man Railway, is in fact negotiating to take over the goods The Deputy-Governor: That is a department from the Manx Electric matter entirely for the Board, and of Railway. If that is not a pecuniary course they will probably want to await interest I don't know what is. the result of this Commission which is going to solve all our difficuties in Mr J. M. Cain: I will make a full transport. explanation. The difference between Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, the goods and parcels -- how are we, as Board will take adequate notice of the you, Your Excellency, have asked Sir debate today, and when we meet again Henry Sugden — to get the parcels we will no doubt have our new mem- delivered to the Manx Electric Railway ber there and the decision whether we if they have got no lorries? Everybody come before this honourable Court with will have to go on buses or walk to a resolution to close in winter will de- deliver small parcels. If they are going pend on discussion. to give up the goods traffic, surely to goodness they give up the lot because The Deputy-Governor: It is entirely they are giving up all their vehicles. a matter for the Board. It is not They don't want to come to this Court relevant to this discussion. to replace the vehicles and therefore Mr J. M. Cain: Your Excellency, I have they are going to stick into one busin- rot co ;le here today to attack the policy ness and the one business is both goods of Tynwald, but I as a member wish to and parcels. ask, under paragraph 21 of the chair- man's speech, when he says "In examin- The Deputy-Governor: Surely that is ing the cost of this we have had a hard a matter of policy for the Board. look at the possibilities of saving by Sir Henry Sugden: I was going to ask closing down the winter service" — and if 'perhaps the hon. chairman of the Isle these are the words I want you to take of Man Railway could explain how the into consideration — "and reducing the parcels get to the bus station?

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT. MARCH 23, 1966 1215

Mr J. M. Cain: Your Excellency, may of cars on the Island and everybody I complete my story? We have had in in the traffic world is suffering? This the past eighteen months three confer- to me, to run these cars all these 36 ences with the Manx Electric Railway, weeks is absolutely ludicrous. I would when they suggested to us they might like to refer also again to paragraphs give up their goods traffic 30 and 31. no, 34. "One point which does Mr Bell: Your Excellency, on a point however cause us some concern is the growing congestion in the traffic on of order, is the chairman 'of the Road Services addressing Tynwald Court Douglas promenade." I would have today, or is the member for West thought the more traffic they had on Douglas addressing the Court? Douglas promenade, the more people they would have brought to the station. Mr J. M. Cain: The member for West If they want to close the traffic down Douglas. on Douglas promenade you will get Mr Bell: Well who is ''we," when he nobody 'brought to the station. That is refers to "we have been negotiating?" quite sensible in my point of view. You want the Corporation buses running Mr J. M. Cain: We, the Isle of Man there. The more buses they bring over to Railway, have had conferences with the the end of the promenade to bring traffic Manx Electric Railway on taking over to you, the better. Why should you chal- their goods traffic. We were willing to lenge that? Another thing I would like step in and help them with the service to speak on is number 36, where it says, they are giving up. They took us up to "It should be noted that in comparing the top 'of Snaefell and gave us lunch the receipts and expenditure of the because they were trying to get us to Board 'the figures are now in a new take over their service. We returned form from previous years. This is due their 'hospitality. We also had a meeting to the fact that we have re-arranged with the Steam Packet Company and •our accounts." What is the cost of Mr it was only today, according to his Carney, the Government Treasurer, speech, that they have told us, after 18 looking after their books, when they months' negotiations, that they are now can't do it themselves? going give up the lot on March 31st. Can you understand any responsible The Deputy-Governor: Chicken-feed. Board who enter into negotiations not Mr J. M. Cain: I don't know whether finishing them off? Not saying either it is chicken-feed or not-- "you are not going to have them" or "you are going to have them." The Deputy-Governor: I should think The Deputy-Governor: I think we it is a very heavy item. have had enough on that. Mr J. M. Cain: It must be. I know Mr J. M. Cain: Yes, I am only saying what it is in company's that I work with this is the Board that is running this — the cost of accountancy and the cost particular job. Now another point that of keeping books. Anyway, I am not I would like to take up is this. They talk allowed to move my resolution that I about the winter traffic, in which 550 was going to move, about the railway persons each week are carried. I have being closed down for the winter, and so worked it out that that is four or five therefore we cannot progress today on people per car journey. Now it is that particular item, for which I am ludicrous for those people to run a very sorry, sir. winter service for 36 weeks carrying 4,', Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, I will people a time. It doesn't affect me, or only support the retention of the M.E.R. the railway or the buses one iota. Does as a tourist amenity, not as a form of this Court realise that in the last five transport. I want to make that clear years we have doubled the population for a start. But going through these

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway 'Board—Approved. 1216 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 figures, and listening to the other Mr Bell: I will just be very brief. I figures that have been given in the don't want to do anything at all which Court today, I am completely confused would imperil the future of the Manx about the number of passengers there Electric Railway or its employees or are carried by this service. In paragraph any of the staff, I want to make that 23 of the statement by the chairman, he perfectly clear. Yet, after having the refers to 20,000 in the winter that are figures discussed, and the intended re- carried each way. Now I want to be placement of lines and the life expect- sure that these are not . . . would that ancy of the rolling stock, it must cause make a total of 40,000 altogether? one to pause and ponder. When the hon. member of the Council, Mr Bolton, Mr Colebourn: Both ways. suggested a road to Snaefell, I immedi- ately saw that this in itself — although Mr Kneale: It is 10,000 each way? certain members representing the con- Well that is one figure that is wrong. stituency of Garff and even Ramsey — If we go over to item 19, we see the might like to fight this off, because it percentages of passengers carried. You would be politically proud of them to will see they have three figures that add do so at this time, it may very well be up to 100 per cent. Sixty-seven per cent go to Laxey, 16 per cent go to Snaefell the one thing that could continue the life of the Manx Electric Railway. I and 17 per cent go to Ramsey. So from this I assume — as Mr Kaneen says — can foresee a new Crow's Nest on the everybody goes from Douglas and no- summit of Snaefell at a very modest cost. An amenity summer and winter body gets off at Groudle. Yet I look at the receipts and I find that the total all round, patronised without any receipts, including the Snaefell journey, shadow of doubt by locals, residents, only add up to £48,000 and then we are new residents, and visitors. We have told that there have been half-a-million won a prize, I am told, for the design passengers carried — but this works of the Crow's Nest on the sea terminal out at only 2s. a time. So they can't be building. Well, the acclaim and applause going very far on the line. As regards we would get would be world-wide for the winter services, I think we should something — not of that magnitude — have a lot more information. How far but with the same idea of giving persons the people that are travelling in the a spectacle. You would get a beautiful winter go? Mr Speaker refers to 19,000 sight up there, providing the weather people going in and out of Ramsey was fine of course. I do think that the during the winter. Now where is your Court should not do anything to pre- 67 per cent. that only go to Laxey, when judice the M.E.R. today and that the we are told that only 10,000 are travel- chairman of the Highway Board should ling altogether? Nineteen thousand take advantage of the delay between passengers in and out of Ramsey during this Tynwald and the next Tynwald, the winter — these are the words he when the budget comes along, to said. In fact the more figures we get give us some indication of what cost a dished up to us today, the more con- road, such as he visualises, would cost fused the issue becomes. If the 67 per to the summit. cent of the travelling public only go as Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, I have far as Laxey in the winter as well as in always supported the Manx Electric the summer, then it means that in each Railway for one idea I have felt — that car that is running there is only three to turn all these people on to the roads or four people in each car that is going would cause terrific chaos. I think it past Laxey. So if we are going to carry would be terrible to have all these on as a tourist amenity, we should people on the road. It is bad enough as consider very carefully whether we are it is. Now I feel that at the moment I going to go beyond Laxey. am definitely going to support the con-

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1217

tinuation of the railroad from Douglas all deficiencies in our books. Does any- to Ramsey. There is just one thing I am body complain about that? The not so clear about and that is the cost Museum, the water supplies and electri- of renewing the lines from Laxey to city supplies, which the capital expendi- Snaefell. I have looked at the receipts ture is passed by this Court for all these for this year and last year and have different things? Where is the line where heard the figure that has been men- you draw LID and say, no more for this, tioned to renew the lines, £145,000. no more of that? It would be a sad day There is another side that seems to for the Isle of Man if the Manx Electric suggest itself to me, and that is the withdraws its services. This may be the making of a road to Snaefell, that might beginning of the end, that is what is be the answer. Now as I see it, if this worrying me. If we pack all the traffic road had to be made, the cost of making on these very narrow roads. We are this road could be reduced terrifically bringing thousands of motor cars over by the simple reason that all material this summer by two car ferries, what could be carted up on the present line is going to be the answer to that? New before it is taken away. I am not so roads? They are going to cost a lot of clear on that point yet, but it seems to money. Mr Bolton put this matter me if £145,000 has to be spent on that before the Court many years ago and he short track — I am speaking from knows himself what the consequences Laxey only to the summit will be. I have just been working out The Deputy-Governor: You would call the £50,000 that was suggested for the a short track, would you? new road on Snaefell itself. Someone should tell us that before we start Mr Corkhill: It is a matter of two or eliminating those other figures. If they three miles. It is not a long track. I could tell us now what the interest and haven't quite made up my mind on that sinking fund on £50,000 would be, it part of It, but I do see some reasbn in might be £3,000 or £4,000 a year to the idea of turning it into a motor road, meet the expenses on that for the next and the very fact that there is a line 20 or 30 years. there at the moment will cut the cost of getting the material up to the points Mr Bolton: You would make that required. amount at the summit. The Deputy-Governor: This must be Mr Kelly: Possibly, but it is conjec- the last speaker now. ture. You don't know what it might be. Another member was talking about Mr Kelly: Your Excellency, could I having a terminal building at the top. ask the Court, where is the line of You want to be up there in the winter demarcation in these matters? The time. You can hardly stand up. You Manx Electric Railway has been pur- want more than an umbrella up there, chased by the Isle of Man Government. you know. These are the things you It is doing its best to keep an amenity have got to face up to. We did away going for the visitor, at the same time with the Bungalow, a silly thing in my providing Ramsey with a service, and opinion, that could have been earning a very excellent service in the height of something. We made a blunder there. the season — it brings quite a lot of We know, those of us who are old people. We advertise extensively in the enough and remember these things in Tourist Board guide and every brochure the town of Douglas which offered the about,what can be seen, the five king- visitors doms from the top of Snaefell, 55,000 people paid to go to the top of Snaefell. Mr 'Coupe: Do you want a Crow's Does anybody complain about the Air- Nest on the top of Snaefell? port costing £120,000, the harbours Mr Kelly: Every single line of attrac- £90,000, the roads £200,000? These are tion that we have tried to have in the

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1218 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Isle of Man, there is somebody trying closed it down in the winter time to to knock them down again. We are like save money because they were losing a skittle alley, if you can get them all money. As the Government, we can do down you seem to be satisfied. Just one exactly the same, but if you shut the final point, Your Excellency, all these lot down, you will shut us down too. things make a contribution to the wel- fare of every single one of us. How you The Deputy-Governor: The hon. mem- can measure, as Mr Bolton, the hon. ber will reply. member — he has been on this for some Mr Colebourn: Your Excellency, many years now—and I have got the greatest hon. members no doubt will remember respect for his ability, there is no doubt what I said five years ago when I was about that, he has outstanding ability appointed to this chairmanship of the in accountancy and in his own outlook Manx Electric Railway. I said I in life really, but he knows himself from accepted this honourable position, but the financial ventures he is in, he is I had no belly for it. Today, sir, you dependent on the Government provid- will know what I meant by that. Now ing these things — is he not? Not only then, in spite of the hon. Speaker's con- the M.E.R. He is depending on the air- tribution, very fine contribution, to the port, he is depending on the harbours, Manx Electric accounts, I do take excep- he is depending on the free glens, tion to the remark he made about the he is depending on the roads, the chairman's irresponsible statement. museum, the water supply, Castle This, sir, is a very responsible state- Rushen and other Government proper- ment. I could quite easily have done ties. Does that pay? Does Peel Castle what many chairman have done in this pay? Do any of them pay? The only Court, buried my head in the sand, and •thing that pays in this book is the floated through the thing, you would casino, the only thing that is showing have passed it and we would have been a profit, and nothing else. All the rest away home by now. But I felt that as I to some people would be dead wood. I am now responsible for the spending of hope the Court will think seriously public money, Your Excellency, I felt about what they are doing this after- honour bound to put a factual state- noon. Let us wait and get these details ment before this Court on how I saw — the road costs. Mr Bolton has got the Manx Electric Railway. There is no competent people who can tell you resolution before the Court at all to within, say, a couple of thousand close the railway down in the winter. pounds anyway, how much it is going to None at all. The reason I mentioned cost, who knows. Leave them in for the that was, I wanted to get the feeling of time being and if necessary we can get hon. members. At the moment we are the Finance Board to sort out the very one member short on the Board. I hope important aspect that Mr Creer, the at our next Board meeting in a week or hon. member for Middle, has put. That two's time we will have a full Board, is the most solid contribution there has and this will be discussed again in the been so far. Let them sort that one out. light of the debates which we have had Let the Harbour Board take some on today. Now then, Mr Cain, I don't know when they want men. Let the Highway Whether to address him as the hon. Board take some on. Let somebody else member for West Douglas or chairman take some on and carry its own weight. of the Isle of Man Railway Company. We are carrying top weight in the He says why are we reducing our cars winter time by keeping open, we know in the summertime? Well, what we are that. Mr Bolton had an hotel, he thought doing is keeping a very close watch on they were going to make a go of it at costs, wages. Wages are the biggest the Empress for instance there, and Mr problem we have. I have issued, and my Cain, but what did they do? They colleagues agreed with me, that very

Estimates---Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1219 little overtime will be paid. We are you getting up there and advocating reducing our night-time running and the case for the pubs. thus reducing our overtime. That is all Mr Bolton: I wasn't. we are doing. Now then, the hon. mem- ber, Mr Creer, made remarks about the Mr Colebourn: I didn't know you had amount of money we had paid out. Well, become an alcoholic, Mr Bolton, but you wages are course are the biggest item sounded like one and he spoke like one, in any enterprise, whether you are sir. You should be aware, from your building a house, whether you are own pubs that you are running—and you building a road, it is wages that are are running one or two — that bar the key factor. There is no question takings are going down generally. We about that, and we are trying our best to only took £1,350 in the bar, but by jove keep them down. That was one of the we took £7,000 in the other side of the reasons—if not the main reason—why business up there, and we had a jolly we thought, one or two of us, that we sight more profit, too. I won't tell you should consider closing the Manx Elec- how much profit. tric Railway in the winter. I am in- Mr Bolton: You made less than £800 debted to the suggestion that possibly up there. we could transfer these men to another Mr Colebourn: For Mr Speaker's in- Board. I don't know, sir. There are only formation again, I am sorry to be all 10 men involved, sir. We don't intend to over •the place with this, but it was sack the whole lot. We have got to have coming so fast I couldn't get it in order. our engineers there to overhaul our It is not the rails that drown the excel- motors, to carry out certain repairs, and lent commentary on the cars, it is the these 10 men — seven of them are over gearing from the motors to the wheels 65 — so whether they will be any good and that is what we want the money to the Highway Board or anybody else, for, to replace those. I do hope the I don't know. This is only under discus- Court is going to reject Mr Bolton's sion and we will have to answer to this amendment, because if that is carried, problem, if and when I come with a reso- it will be goodbye to the Manx Electric, lution to close down in the winter time. for that was where we made the money Now Mr Bolton, I admire him very, very — on Laxey much—as an accountant, As a business- man I wouldn't give him five bob a Members: No. week. Mr Colebourn: What do you mean, we don't? We do. From Laxey to Snae- Mr Bolton:. That's an old record, isn't fell, or from Douglas to Snaefell, that is it? where we made the money. Make no Mr Colebourn: Well you know I error about that. We cannot do anything wouldn't. Mr Bolton, he just looks at about reversing the rails, as Mr Speaker things . . just listen to him yesterday, has suggested. I am not a railway on the hon. Speaker's estimates . . he's engineer, I was astonished to hear from got no heart, he's got no soul. All he Mr Speaker — he must have some can think of is pounds, shillings and knowledge because I didn't know how pence, as if there is nothing else that these things are done — perhaps he matters. Let me tell you, sir, besides could advise me privately how to turn being the chairman of the Manx Elec- the rails round. I do hope, gentlemen, tric Railway, I am the vice-chairman of that you will decide to pass these esti- the Tourist Board, and I know that 47 mates as they are, and wait for the per cent. of the visitors who came to Transport Commission's report. this Island last summer, came because Mr Callister: Will you hold up the of the scenery and fresh air. Not to go capital expenditure until the Transport to your pubs, and I am amazed to hear Commission's report is issued?

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1220 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Mr Colebourn: I can't answer that, ever been on top of Snaefell? When sir. I couldn't give that assurance and were you on top of Snaefell, sir? You it would be wrong of me to do so. It want to go up there and see how many depends. Mr Kelly reminds me, we can- buses and charabancs you can park on not spend it until after the Budget, so top of Snaefell. whether the Budget comes before Mr Mr Bolton: You would make a car Radcliffe or not, I don't know. park. Mr Callister: This report might not be Mr Colebourn: You never would do out for 12 months. either. It is absolute nonsense. Now then, with regard to the winter numbers Mr Colebourn: I can't talk on things of people travelling between Laxey, like that. I am glad Mr Simcocks Maughold and Ramsey, I want to equated the £25,000 in 1957 to the sum remind the Court that we give a very, which we are dealing with today. I very reduced fare! should have thought that Mr Bolton could have done that himself. Mr Mr Nicholls: Why? Kaneen suggests that perhaps we could Mr Colebourn: As a service to the close down Laxey-Ramsey and use the people there. If we charged anything rails for Snaefell. Well, we could, but like an economic fare there would be the main cost for the Snaefell line is the nobody at all on that railway. centre braking rail. That is the cost and Mr MacLeod: Robbing the visitor I said earlier on, the Laxey-Ramsey again you see. section is uneconomic unto itself, but let me tell you this, we took 77,000 Mr Colebourn: It is not robbing the people into Ramsey last year. Now visitor at all. those 77,000 spent some money in Ram- Mr MacLeod: You are charging him sey and you cannot judge this Railway double the fare. unto itself at all. The Tourist Board — Mr Colebourn: Well I suppose there we spend close on £50,000 on news- are some people I have not replied to, paper advertising, sir. I defy anyone to though if I had to reply to everything tell us with any degree of accuracy how that was flung at me, we would be here much we get back out of that. How until well after six. So with that, Your much? I spend G lot of money on adver- Excellency, I move the estimates. tising. It is one of those things you have The Speaker: Your Excellency, would got to do, you are throwing your bread the hon. chairman make one point quite upon the waters and you hope. It is c:ear? He has made what I can only just nonsense to have an ultra-realistic regard as an attack on his Maughold view as Mr Bolton has on it. You have supporters in this matter, by saying got to try these things. I am quite that there has been a specially low certain, quite certain, sir, that the Manx fare put on them. Would he please Electric Railway does perform a very indicate that the low fares in operation good part as an attraction and amenity apply to the whole of the system? to our visitors. There is no doubt what- ever about that, sir, no doubt whatever. Mr Colebourn: Oh certainly, but un- If this railway closes down, the Island is fortunately there seem to be more going to lose a very valuable asset. Now motor cars. Another point I would like to make, to the hon member for West with regard to the road to the summit, Douglas-- Mr Bolton has had this in his mind for a very long time. I wonder whether the Mr J. M. Cain: I thought you had hon. member of the Council, chairman finished. of the Highway Board, who at one time Mr Colebourn: No, I haven't with you, I referred to as the hon. Julius Caesar, sir, I will never be finished with you. who did a lot of road building, has You brought in your diesel buses. I did

Estimates--Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1221

say 47 per cent of our visitors last came well, we will put the resolution, those year for two reasons — one the scenery in favour say aye, to the contrary no. and one the clear air. If you had your The ayes have it. way, sir, you would kill the whole of The resolution was carried. this Island with diesel smoke from your badly adjusted injectors. Mr Bolton: To save a division, sir, could I have my vote recorded against? The Deputy-Governor: Well, hon. The Deputy-Governor: Very well, are members, I think we have had enough you the only one? of this. Now the situation is this, an amendment has been proposed by the Mr Bolton: Well, I don't know about hon. member of the Council, that items that. 3, 4 and 5 on page 88 relating to the The Deputy-Governor: Right it will be capital estimates of the M.E.R. Board recorded that Mr Bolton wishes his vote be deleted. 3 relates to purchase of against to be specially recorded. Also sleepers; 4, purchase of rails and fish Mr MacDonald. plates; 5, purchase of special gearing, The Speaker: Your Excellency, I must all three items relating to the Snaefell protest against this pattern of procedure. rail. The effect of that would be, there- Your Excellency, there is nothing in fore, subject to that I assume then we standing orders that I am aware of that will put the motion as a whole whether permits this matter of members that is carried or not. Now then, those recording, sir, after a decision has been in favour of those three items being taken, what their views are. There is deleted from this Estimate say aye, provision made in standing orders, sir, those to the contrary, no. for a division to be asked for and A division was called for and voting recorded. resulted as follows:— The Deputy-Governor: I thought it would save us having to call a division. In the Keys— But whether it is in order or not I will For: Messrs MacLeod, Crowe, have a division called. Faragher, Callister, Kneale, J. M Voting resulted as follows:— Cain, MacDonald-7. In the Keys— Against: Messrs Corkhill, Kerruish, For: Messrs Corkhill, Crowe, P. Radcliffe, Moore, Quayle, Creer, Kerruish, P. Radcliffe, Moore, H. S. Cain, Simcocks, Colebourn, Quayle, Creer, H. S. Cain, Simcocks, Corkish, Bell, Coupe, Kaneen, Faragher, Colebourn, Callister, Kelly, Sir Henry Sugden and the Corkish, Bell, Coupe, Kaneen, Speaker-16. Kneale, Kelly, Sir Henry Sugden and the Speaker-20. The Speaker: Your Excellency, the Against: Messrs MacLeod, J. M. amendment falls in the House of Keys Cain and MacDonald-3. seven votes being cast in favour, 16 votes against. In the Council— In the Council— For: The Attorney-General, Messrs McFee, Nicholls, Nivison, H. H. For: The Attorney-General, Messrs Radcliffe-5. Bolton, McFee, Nicholls-4. Against: Mr Bolton-1. Against: Messrs Nivison and H. H. The Speaker: Your Excellency, the Radcliffe-2. resolution carries in the House of Keys, The Deputy-Governor: The amend- 20 votes in favour and three against. ment falls because it lost in the Keys, The Deputy-Governor: Five for and carried in the Council, and therefore one against in the Council, therefore the both branches are not in line. Very resolution is carried.

Estimates—Manx Electric Railway Board—Approved. 1222 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

POLICE BOARD ESTIMATES— Mr MacLeod: One question, Your APPROVED Excellency, last year during the debate on these estimates I asked about a The Deputy-Governor: We now police house at St. John's, which I was proceed to item 24, the chairman of the assured was going to be built. It hasn't Police Board to move. even the foundation stone laid yet. I Mr Kerruish: Your Excellency, I beg gave information to the chairman of the to move the resolution standing in my police board as to a house that would name:— be very suitable for the police at St. That Tynwald requests His Excellency, in John's, and I would like to know what consultation with the Finance Board, to give action they took. consideration in framing the budget to the Mr Coupe: Your Excellency, would the estimates of the Police Board as shown in the Book of Estimates for 1966/67. hon. chairman please assure me that Shall I proceed, sir? there are at all times sufficient police on duty, or capable of coming on duty in The Deputy-Governor: Perhaps it the winter time in sufficient numbers. would be dangerous to give an I understand that sometimes they are indication at that time, I would suggest hard pushed due to men being on leave that you say something that they can't and due to illness. argue about. The Speaker: One small point, Your Mr Kerruish: Hon. members, sir, will Excellency, would the chairman, I see see from the figures given on page 68 there is an item for communications and 69 of the book of estimates that here, would the chairman be prepared our probable expenditure for the to discuss with the Health Services current year approximates very closely Board in this case the possibility of a to our estimates. You will also note, joint system to enable us to operate sir, that our estimates for the ensuing ambulances on their short wave radio? year also differ very little from those of It is purely a matter of getting the current year. The largest single together. item, sir, is, pay of force, this figure is Mr Kerruish: In reply to the hon. based on rates of pay ruling at the member for Glenfaba, Mr MacLeod, I present time with the existing can assure him, sir, that the question of establishment and does not take into a house for the police at St. John's has consideration any changes which may not been lost sight of. The Local also occur in the future. Under capital Government Board were kind enough to expenditure, on page 90 of the book of assure us that when they were proceed- estimates, provision has been made for ing with a building scheme at St. John's, the purchase of three more houses. This, provision would be made for a house for sir, is in furtherance of the board's a policeman there, I gather, sir, that policy to have under their own control certain difficulties have arisen with a reasonable number of houses in order regard to that particular project, but to facilitate the efficient distribution of that the Board concerned hope to the Force. I hope, sir, that the Court proceed with it sometime in the not too will agree that in view of the fact that far distant future, and I can assure the most of the figures approximate to those hon member for Glenfaba, Mr MacLeod, they agreed to this time last year that that the point he has raised has not been I have been justified in not going into forgotten. details, but I can assure hon. members Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, that is that if they have any queries I will do not the question I asked. I give infor- my best to furnish any information they mation to the chairman of the board as require. Your Excellency, I beg to to a suitable house that is already exist- move. ing at St. John's, and what he did about Mr Bell: I beg to second, it.

Police Board Estimates—Approved.

TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1223

Mr Kerruish: If the capital estimates Excellency's views are on this of the board are approved at budget particular subject as yet, and when they time, sir, the question that has been are known no doubt they will be placed brought to my notice by the hon. member before this Court if His Excellency would be given serious consideration by thinks fit. As far as the question raised members of the Police Board. by Mr Speaker is concerned—com- The Deputy-Governor: But you want munications — I can assure him that a certain standard of rooms, etc., so that if his particular board will communicate you can interchange. Isn't that so? with the Police Board we will be at all times anxious to co-operate fully with Mr Kerruish: That is correct, sir. the Health Services Board, or indeed The Deputy-Governor: You are trying with any other board of Tynwald. Your to get a basis of accommodation that is Excellency, I beg to move. very very similar. Isn't that right? The Deputy - Governor: Are we Mr MacLeod: In other words he has agreed? done nothing about it at all. The resolution was carried unani- Mr Kerruish: With regard to the hon. mously. member, Mr Coupe, sir, his question really touched on the matter of establishment. I will not conceal the fact that the question of establishment BOARD OF SOCIAL SERVICES— has engaged the attention of the board ESTIMATES APPROVED :or some considerable time. We have tendered certain advice to His The Deputy-Governor: Estimates of Excellency, whose responsibility it is the Social ServiCes, I call upon the primarily to recommend to this hon. chairman of the Board of Social Court, the police establishment of the Services to move. Island. At this moment, sir, I am not Mr Nivison: Your Excellency, I beg in possession of His Excellency's views, to move:— but I would assure Mr Coupe that we as That Tynwald requests His Excellency, in a board are concerned with the fact that consultation with the Finance Board, to give in our view the establishment of the consideration in framing the budget to the Isle of Man at the moment is inadequate, estimates of the Board of Social Services as but it is not for the Police Board to shown in the Book of Estimates for 1966/67. arrive at an ultimate decision in this Your Excellency, the details of the matter. Our views have been made estimates of the Board of Social known to His Excellency. and I have no Services are contained on pages 70 and doubt they will be given consideration 71. These are virtually not estimates, in due course. Your Excellency, they are commitments, The Speaker: Is it not your they are commitments under the Act and responsibility under the Act? regulations. I would say that these are presented to you with the unanimous Mr Kerruish: It is our responsibility approval of the Board of Social to provide a police force to the Services and with the full knowledge satisfaction of His Excellency, and we of the Finance oard. We have had regard it as our duty to advise His communication with them on certain Excellency of the fact that we have points, and have amended in certain found the present establishment to be inadequate. respects. I want to point out, however, that in view of the enormous cost of the The Deputy-Governor: And you have Social Services administration, it is made certain recommendations? necessary for me to point out to you Mr Kerruish: Correct, sir. But as I that during the year there have been say we have no ideas as to what His certain increases in the National

Board of Social Services—Estimates Approved. 1224 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Insurance benefits, and these have beds. It will have the necessary sitting accounted for great increases, for rooms, dining rooms, etc., it is instance, in the retirement pensions an anticipated this will be situated on the extra £75,000 per year, in one year will road just south, I think it will be, on be required to meet the expenses under the Four Roads, between Port St. Mary retirement pensions. The total amount and Port Erin. Actually, for the being £1,700,000 in retirement pensions. benefit of those people in that area, half It is also true to say that in this of the building will be in the village particular item the number of people district of Port St. Mary, and half will that are receiving the retirement be in the village district of Port Erin. pensions have risen from 8,120 to 8,443 This was not by design in order to during the year 1965. There was an please both committees, it is purely by increase of claimants of 771 during that accident that the boundary runs right year and some 448 ceased to draw their through the piece of property that we pension, in other words they died during have bought for this purpose. The this period. It is also interesting to architect has been instructed to proceed note in the figures that are presented as rapidly as possible in dealing with to you the increased amounts that are the plans and we would hope to come being received from graduated forward with a completed scheme in contributions, this is shown on page 70, order that this building might be under (9)—£224,000 it is anticipated commenced during August/September will be received in 1967. This is due to this year, with a view to it being the fact that the scope has been completed within a year. It Will widened and more and more people are accommodate 51 old people. During paying graduated contributions, the the year, as members will have seen, we wage level has risen. I would say that have as an emergency measure taken during the year we have been consider- over two properties in Albert Terrace. ing also alterations in the legislation in and at the moment there are over 30 the United Kingdom, and we are giving people residing in those places with very serious consideration to care and attention, We are working in implementing these alterations. Of close conjunction with the Health course, we will be coming before Services Board in trying to take as Tynwald in the event of any alteration many as possible people who are at the being carried out. Some of the moment in acute hospitals like Noble's alterations, it is not anticipated, will Hospital, who are occupying beds, who require any additional monies to finance no longer require medical attention, them, so every precaution has been and it is our desire to take as many as taken in this direction, I would, how- possible of these people into this type ever, draw members' attention to the of accommodation, where if they have capital estimates and there is one the money they have to pay the full particular item which we would ask cost of the accommodation. That that members, and particularly His information is contained incidentally in Excellency and the Finance Board. the appendix at the back of your book should include in this year's estimates. on page 102, and the average cost per This time we are dealing with item No. resident in these homes is about £9 per 3, that is the old people's home near week. Because they don't have medical Four Roads, Rushen. It is now some attention, we have a very limited years since we have been discussing this amount of medical attention. At possibility, and we have now reached Mannin Infirmary where there are the stage, only last week, where the nearly 120 people, we only have four Old People's Committee of the Social qualified people, all the rest are pure Services finally agreed on the detailed attendants. There is a matron, a sister plans of this home which will have 51 and two staff nurses. We don't

Board of Social Services—Estimates Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1225 consider it our duty to give medical perhaps are resident in other areas. attention, only in emergency times, and It is a very difficult problem from time more demands are being made upon to time. I would say that many of the the Board for this type of accommoda- things, incidentally the earnings rule tion by people throughout the Island for widows has been abolished during requiring care and attention, and we the year, and this does too increase the are carrying out this duty in as cost to some small degree. The main economical a way as possible, and we cause you will see, however, whilst you consider it very desirable that we should are faced with these enormous figures of £2,800,000 there is £1,600,000 comes have this additional home in the in the form of contributions or interest, south of the Island. The estimates are either flat rate contributions or presented in a slightly different way in- transfers from the Industrial Injuries somuch that they do show the actual Fund, so the amounts of money that are cost of the maintenance in these homes required from Tynwald are in the on both sides of the sheet. It is borne neighbourhood of £1,140,000. I move by a vote under the National Assistance these estimates because I know members Vote. If a person applies for residency will probably wish to avail themselves in an old person's home they are all of this opportunity to ask questions. I subjected, whether we like it or not, know the figures are all set out here, they are all subjected to an enquiry and from time to time we are always regarding their ability or otherwise to very willing and anxious to give you pay. If they have sufficient money they all the information possible. I would pay the entire cost of £9, if they say that we are rigidly adhering to the haven't any money at all their pension United Kingdom schemes so far as is augmented by National Assistance National Insurance is concerned, and and the entire money is derived in recently we have brought our National that way. Those items are shown in your book under item 15 on the one Assistance more or less into line with the United Kingdom. These, as I said side, and over on the other side they are at the outset, Your Excellency, are shown as item 22. That is how it is commitments rather than estimates, and shown. it is part of the National they are commitments of orders, acts Assistance Vote. This is an enormous and regulations which Tynwald them- field, Your Excellency, and I don't intend selves have passed. I move the estimates. to go over the enormous field of our activities, regarding the rate of un- Mr MacLeod: I beg to second. employment or the rate of sickness. It is not anticipated in the forthcoming The Speaker: Your Excellency, I will winter that the unemployment will be be very brief, because I see a very much different from this possibility of finishing our estimates particular winter. It is going at a today. First, sir. I would like to steady particular rate at the moment. compliment the Social Services Board on It is not either rising or falling, and the the abolition of the widows earning rule. amount you will see under the un- This is something that was long sought employment benefit is a mere £93,000 by this Court, and it is a very in a year, as compared with the acceptable development. One question, sickness benefit running at twice that and one only. When you apply for rate £170,000. It is not a serious sickness benefit certificates in future, problem, so tar as we are concerned in will persons applying be given the same the Isle of Man. We would like. if opportunity as I understand is given to Possible, to have everyone in full people in England today, of getting a employment, but it is not always certificate which will cover three weeks possible to do that because many of the to a month at one application, it will people required in different areas help the patient, it will help the doctor,

Board of Social Services—Estimates Approved. 1226 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 and could you tell us whether or not The Deputy-Governor: But when did you are prepared to do that, sir? he apply for it, that is the trouble. Sir Henry Sugden: I would like to ask Sir Henry Sugden: It is a bit of a two questions. One is under the hardship when he has to exist without National Assistance Act. Has the hon. normal wages or pensions even for that chairman of the Board of Social period. Services made any provision for the ever-rising cost of living over here? I Mr Kelly: May I ask the hon. member, understand that today, I only heard it Your Excellency, about the graduated as I was leaving my house this morning, payments under the Insurance Acts? the price of bread has gone up by qd. There is a difference this year of an for the ordinary standard loaf, which is increase of £60,000. Now the Labour very much higher than the price of Government have said they are going to bread across do away with this, because it is nothing The Deputy-Governor: Is that taking else but a racket, it is something to place at once? bolster up the insurance fund contribu- tions, and the Labour Party have stuck Sir Henry Sugden: I understand so, sir. to that right throughout and it is an Somebody has said nd. I was told 21d. absolute nightmare when you are this morning, but my hon. colleague said stamping cards with all these different that it was qd. and he knows all about denominations of pence on the value of it, and I am sure that that is so. We are their wages that is paid out, it is a possibly faced with an increase in the nightmare really. When does this be- price of beef owing to certain proposals come operative from the point of view for the grading of Manx beef sold over of paying out? Because you can see the here-- thing here, it has jumped from £160,000 Mr H. H. Radcliffe: There are no odd to £220,000 this year. This is in proposals for different grading whatso- addition to the standard rate, the stan- ever. dard rate has naturally gone up, of course we expect that, but this has gone Sir Henry Sugden: I am delighted to up out of all proportion—£60,000 more. hear that, but we are told also that When will they start paying out some of freight rates are going up 10 per this money? Perhaps the chairman could cent. All this is bound to increase the tell us the answer to that one. And could cost of living, and I do feel that people he, I repeat again, when they are pre- who are in receipt of National Assis- paring these sheets I think it is only fair tance, they should not be worse off than on the receipts side to show quite people on the other side, which does clearly the income from the Industrial mean of course that as they have to pay Injuries Fund, it is fair to have it pre- more for essentials they should be given sented properly, you don't have to be a rather more. Now, my other question, mathematician to do it, but you certainly Your Excellency, is purely a matter of have to calculate it to find out where the workings and it is this. Where a these lines are. For instance there is the man, over 65, who is naturally entitled income coming from it, for a start, there to his retirement pension, retires from is the transfer from Industrial Injuries active work, will the chairman endea- to the National Insurance Fund and vour to arrange that he will in fact be then there is further £1,000,000 which is able to draw his pension in a less time invested and their gross figure from this than at present? I understand that it book is £77,000 altoPether, out of which takes anything up to four weeks for an they pay £36.000 in the way of benefits. individual to be able to go along to get fair enough. and there is the adminis- his pension. Of course he oets his back tration and such like which in effect is pension for the previous weeks-- practically £40,000 profit which they

Board of Social Services--Estimates Approved T'YNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1227 have got in hand. Couldn't the Board of after being in hospital they get a certain Social Services, when preparing this amount of sick benefit stopped off them. book, it is very well done, but for some I want to know does Noble's Hospital reason or other they have got these lines get this sick benefit or what happens to in such a way that it is difficult to follow it? There is nothing shown in here. straight away, because that was another Then the last question, Your Excellency, matter, it automatically follows now, is there any chance at all of an old not like England when they have any people's home being in Onchan or the alterations in their insurance it goes surrounds of Onchan? We have an awful before the House of Commons, and it is lot of old people in Onchan and sur- properly debated. But here, it comes rounds and I think it is time that there under an Act, and some years ago it gave was something done for us up in the Board of Social Services power to Onchan. make an order, it goes to the Governor, Mr Kaneen: Your Excellency, I would the Governor signs it and it comes before like to support the hon. member for this Court in the form of a resolution, Ramsey, Sir Henry Sugden, in his plea not as legislation at all and that is the on the cost of living. I have brought this simple way of doing it. That is one of matter forward ever since I have been the weaknesses of the system we have in this House. The cost of living is far in the Isle of Man, and it is a matter dearer in the Isle of Man than it is in that I have raised before because I the United Kingdom. Especially coal, don't want a continuation of the Board bread and meat, and many other things. of Agriculture's policy with regard to Now when a person on retirement these orders. I want to protect the Court pension with a fixed income, surely and the people of the Isle of Man they should be entitled to a cost of against this sort of thing, because they living bonus in the Isle of Man. There can make an order up in the Board of used to be a cost of living bonus in the Agriculture office, send it to the Island for a worker of 4s. 6d. a week, an Governor, the Governor can sign it and arbitration brought that into their before you can say "Jack Robinson" it wages when they negotiated and got is the law of the land. They are orders, another region and wages were fixed on they are determinations, prices of food that region, but where you have a person and all the rest of it and it goes without with a fixed income drawing retirement coming before anybody, and that is one pension, I think it is time the Social of the things we want to be very very Services should consider a cost of careful about. Don't let this thing get living bonus without these people having out of hand. to go and apply for National Assistance. Mr Creer: Your Excellency, I have I appreciate that the Food Council three small questions I would like to should be doing something about this, ask. The first was partly asked by the but honestly these people have got no hon. member for Ramsey — the teeth, although they are some sort of a graduated fund, I am looking at, next body. We get reports, but nothing ever year you expect to get £224,000, has any happens. Perhaps now is the time for of this fund been paid out in retirement the Social Services to do something for pensions? these people who must be in dire straits The Deputy-Governor: Not as yet. with their retirement pension, without Mr Creer: The next one is. I am ask- forcing them to go on National Assis- ing this question not because I have just tance, in view of the fact that the cost come out of hospital, but it has been of living is much dearer here than it is pointed out to me before, quite a few in the United Kingdom. times really. After a person has been in Mr P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, as a hospital for a certain number of weeks, member of the Local Government I am not sure whether it is 13 or 14, Board who are continually being rapped

Board of Social Services—Estimates Approved. 1228 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH •23, 1966 over the knuckles for the prices they United Kingdom scheme, even if it pay for development, could I on a point appeared to be more, eventually if you of information find out from the chair- break away from the scales of National man of the Board of Social Services Assistance that are appertaining in the what area of land was purchased at United Kingdom, eventually we could Rushen for £2,500? be the losers. We have had experience of this in the oast, and I do recall my Mr Faragher: Your Excellency, I hon. friend, Mr McFee, asking if it would just like to support what the hon. wouldn't be possible to give them a bag member Mr Kaneen has said, there is of coal every week in the winter time. no need for me to go over exactly the Instead of that we gave them, I think, 5s. same words. But I am in sympathy with at that time. But as time went on we what he says, and if the hon. chairman found that it was so difficult to get back of the Board of Social Services can give into the scheme the same as the United me any idea as to how the old people Kingdom. However, we will bear it in who are too old to be included in the mind, and examine it very carefully. It Health Services Pension Scheme, if they must be borne in mind that the general have been able to do anything to assist worker was, if not now, enjoying a cost them because it is getting harder and of living bonus of some 4s. 6d. for many harder each week for them to live the years, and may still be doing that, I am same as the others and if he could not sure. But he did at one time, when enlighten me on that. they were on a particular zone, they Mr Coupe: Your Excellency, I just may have altered the zone now. We will wish to congratulate the Board of Social pay attention to this, and will report to Services on No. 5 Albert Terrace and the Board in due course. It is rather sincerely hope that they will continue important that we shouldn't . be any with the good work in various parts of worse off than our counterparts in the the Island. United Kingdom. I can assure you that it is our interests too to see to that. Mr Nivison: Mr Speaker raised the Regarding the speeding 1113 of the retire- question of widows' earnings, I am sure ment pension award. I would say that it that everyone was glad that that was is the object of the Board at all times abolished. With regard to the sickness to get these pension awards out as soon benefit, over a period rather than get- as possible, and we do send along to the ting a weekly certificate. The Board of possible pensioner, sometimes weeks or Social Services would at all times be months before they come to retirement prepared to accept these certificates and age-- do in fact receive certificates now for a period of say a month. In some cases. A Member: Four months. for even longer than that. I will, how- ever, take this up further, sometimes it Mr Nivison: Four months. Well, is the doctor concerned who is not pre- somebody has evidently had some ex- pared to give the longer certificate than perience. Before they actually reach say a week, We are quite prepared to their birthday, and say please will you accept them, and I will take that up a furnish us with this, that and the other. little bit further too. With regards to and nothing comes back in many the hon. and gallant member for Ram- cases-- sey, Sir Henry, on the question of the Mr Crowe: I had one five or six years cost of living in the Isle of Man, this is ago! a thing which constantly the Board of Social Services have given consideration Mr Nivison: Well that is plenty of to. We are somewhat reluctant to come warning. Especially for such a young forward with this because we feel that man as the hon. member. We do give if we do have a variation from the notice, and we expect the person in turn

Board of Social Services—Estimates Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1229

to supply us with certain documents, ordinary household plots sold in develop- and I am sure the Court wouldn't want ment areas for as much as £1,000 per it any other way. plot. This wasn't considered to be very The Deputy-Governor: It is entirely dear. With regards to the hon. member their own fault. for Rushen, Mr Faragher, that other matter is still receiving active consid- Mr Nivison: And invariably these are not coming as quickly as possible. The eration, but I can assure you that any form states: "Are you continuing in of those people in the meantime, who your employment, or is it your intention have hardship whatsoever, I can assure to retire and so forth?" A whole series you that they are being looked after, of questions are asked, and if there is a provided we get to know about them, delay, I would say invariably it is the and I can assure you that most people, fault of the person not giving all the if they know there is something going, details. However, some of our staff they get after it too. We do thank Mr could make mistakes from time to time Coupe for his kind remarks on Albert and there may well be an odd mistake. Terrace. We are proud with what we When you are dealing with 8,000 odd have done in Albert Terrace and it is pensioners, there could be the odd mis- doing quite a good job, there are over take, but it is not by design I can 30 people, and there will be 35 there assure you. Now Mr Kaneen also men- very shortly. My friend, the hon. member tioned the cost of living and I can for Ramsey, Mr Kelly, has raised this assure you we will go into this and see question of graduated payments, as did if there is this variation in the Isle of the hon. member Mr Greer. The great Man. I am reminded that on National increase is largely due to the fact that Assistance, my hon. friend here, Mr we have extended, one time it was McFee, has been making some enquiries purely between £9 and £15, we have regarding the amount we pay in extended the monies under which we National Assistance to help people with take up these 10d.s. It is 10d. per pound their rents, and if I was to tell you that for the man and 10d. per pound for the that amount was in excess of £50,000 employer, and now you can go to a it is quite an item. So we are having 7s. 6d. stamp. The maximum stamp at regard to these factors and I will give one time was 7s. 6d. per employer, 15s. the hon. member the assurance that we all told. It was only 10s. at one time, will go into it somewhat further. Re- we have extended that. Also too, it is garding the hon. member for Ayre, Mr true to say that we have already started Radcliffe, what was the exact area of to pay_ out only in very small degrees, the. land, I regret I haven't got those you only get 6d. per week for every £7 figures to hand, but I can assure you 10s. you pay, but I can assure you from this land was considered, we had it an actuarial point of view you get valued by a competent valuer— everything you put down Mr McFee: It was about two acres, Mr Bell: But no more. wasn't it? Mr Nivison: It could well be. There Mr Nivison: But no more — that is is quite some depth in it, and it is true, it is based on this understanding. frontage land. The frontage land was Now the hon. member made some refer- valued at something like 12s. 6d. - 15s. ence to certain other parties in the a yard, and the back land was valued United Kingdom passing fair comments at something like 5s. a yard. But we on the graduated payments. We cannot were assured that we were getting quite anticipate what will happen in the good value for this actual land which future. All we can say is this, it was we bought for some £2,000. It must be designed in the first place to bring in borne in mind that we have seen more money

Board of Social Services—Estimates Approved. 1230 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Mr Callister: By the Tory Govern- or touch that in any way, or the chil- ment. dren's allowances. I want to say that Mr Nivison: To bring in more money we don't go to the administration of transferring those few shillings over to by the United Kingdom Government, the Health Board, they don't do that. It secondly to encourage occupational pension schemes, and thirdly to give is merely that we are all purely agents for the one organisation and if it is some form of additional pension bearing saved by our Board, instead of being some relationship to the amount of saved by the Health Board, it is the money they were earning to those who same answer. This is the general prac- didn't have a pension scheme. In other tice throughout Government that they words, if a person aged 18 was to con- don't transfer these little amounts from tinue under the graduated pension, and one Board to the other. I hope I have was earning big money, he would dealt, if only briefly, I would apologise eventually get a pension that bore some to members for the rush but it is in your relationship to the money that he was interests, and I can assure you that any earning. This is what it was designed time we would be only too happy to to do. I think the main object of the answer any further queries. Oh, there scheme was to bring in some immediate is one question I must answer — my money, and it is certainly doing that, friend Mr Creer asked about some you can see by these estimates. I can homes for old People as far as Onchan assure you they are also starting to is concerned. I would say that the Old pay out in small degrees. The method People's Committee has this very in which the payments are set out—Mr actively under consideration at the Kelly made some remark about the moment, they have instructed an Industrial Injuries and the difficulty— architect to view sites in the Onchan this is particularly not our desire. I am area-- sure Mr Kelly didn't find it too difficult to follow it. This is the design we are Mr Kelly: They should get priority in asked to put it in, and we don't find it Onchan. difficult to follow, and I am sure really he doesn't either. He is really opposed Mr Nivison: No, this is because there to it being transferred, he wants it to be is no accommodation whatsoever in given back to the payer—that was the Onchan at the moment in this respect. real message, but we have received There is accommodation in the south of this so many times before, and we do the Island, the west of the Island and not intend to do anything about it be- so far as Douglas is concerned. We are cause if the money didn't come from looking at certain sites in Onchan with the transfer from the Industrial Injuries a view to putting up some homes that it would have to come from some other would be for self-occupation where source, by taxation or something. Mr people would live under their own pen- Creer did ask too, I think—what hap- sions, not under the National Assistance pened to the amounts that are deducted Act, retain their own pensions and cer- from a person having been in hospital tain trusts we are administering, the for say eight weeks. They do make a Board of Social Services are administer- deduction from eight weeks. If a person ing, and it is under these trusts, to build is in for 52 weeks they take everything something like 10 or a dozen bungalow off and just leave him with 16/6d com- types which would be the modern con- forts allowance. ception of the Clarke Street house. This is the way I like to describe it, where The Deputy-Governor: I thought it you get free accommodation, heat and was 6d. light, and we were hoping to add a mid- Mr Nivison: Oh, no, l6/6d. But they day meal. It is receiving active con- don't take your dependant's allowances sideration.

Board of Social Services —Estimates Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1231

Mr McFee: A step further than year we have to date received 166.000 Marashen. plus postal enquiries, this is 9,000 more Mr Nivison: Yes. than the Board received in the whole of 1965. To meet this phenomenal, but not The Deputy-Governor: All those unanticipated demand, we have re- favour say aye, against no. printed 50,000 copies of the Guide at a It was carried unanimously. cost of £5,800 which will require authorisation in next year's estimates. I would ask the hon. member for Peel before he leaves to stay a moment or TOURIST BOARD — ESTIMATES two as I have a reference for him on the APPROVED next page. The reason for this great increase in the number of enquiries is The Deputy-Governor: Item No. 26, due to a substantial increase in the chairman of the Tourist Board to move. sphere of our advertising expenditure Mr Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg coupled with the abolition of the re- to move:— quirement to send 5:1. in stamps in That Tynwald requests His Excellency, in order to obtain a copy. I trust members consultation with the Finance Board, to give will have seen our colour advertising consideration in framing the budget to the estimates of the Tourist Board as shown in which appeared in January. Colour the Book of Estimates for 1966/7. advertising is by no means the cheapest Your Excellency, I have sat here very form of advertising. The insertion in quietly for 24 hours of debate and "Readers' Digest," which was a 21-page never opened my mouth pull-out, cost £4,160. That in "Woman" £3,150, that in "Woman's Realm" £1,425. The Deputy-Governor: Well done. It cost, on top of this, some £1,000 for Mr Quayle: And I think in fairness, I art work and blocks. Nevertheless, we would be entitled to have at least three have, from our experts on the other side quarters of an hour — I expect to be in this subject, been told that this colour seven minutes. Your Excellency, in advertising made a terrific impact. The moving the adoption of the Tourist increase in expenditure on exhibitions Board Estimates I want to propose a which will be noticed is to allow the small amendment to the green book, and Board once again to take space in the that is on page 75, section 11, column Earls Court Motor Cycle Exhibition 7, Race Committee Expenses of Manx which falls every other year in Novem- Grand Prix, the figure in the column is ber. There have been substantial in- £5,000, I propose that this figure be creases in the expenses of the Race amended to £6,000, this is with the Committee, increases which have caused agreement of the Board. I am therefore all members of my committee some con- asking this Court to approve the vote cern. In the past 10 years the amount of of £158,410. I understand that the Government financial assistance for the Finance Board accept this arrangement various events which are supported by and I really must say, it refers to the the Race Committee has risen threefold, 1966 Grand Prix and not 1965 Grand and there is no sign of this escalation in Prix on which I will have something to costs has ceased. The Race Committee say on the supplementary estimates. I is now engaged in a review of the value don't propose to deal at all with any of of existing events. It could be that the items 1 - 4, only to point out that if committeewill have to ask the organisers administration looks to be high, it is to re-organise, or even abandon some practically entirely due to postage on events owing to the high cost of pro- our literature. The great increase in the motion and the low return in visitor cost in publicity printing from last arrivals. It is my duty to inform the year is due to the fact that this Court that there are events in very

Tourist Board—Estimates Approved. 1232 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 early planning stages at this moment trace who in fact came from Holland, which could lead to a considerable in- we know of 56 specific Dutch visitors crease in expenditure. Only this Mon- we had and this excludes the consider- day we had discussions with the Royal able contingent who came for the Six- Automobile Club and possible sponsors Day Trial, and also those who came for about the possibility of bringing the the T.T. The seeds sown in 1965, are, I T.T. Car Race back to the Isle of Man. am happy to say, showing tender green I will be frank and say that this would shoots. I, and my friend, the hon. mem- be a most expensive operation, far more ber for East Douglas, Mr Coupe, have expensive than the organisation of the recently returned from Holland, I T.T. We will have to look very carefully hasten to add on a visit, almost wholly at the substantial outlay involved and financed by the British Travel Associa- see whether we can attract sufficient tion, not the Isle of Man Government, extra business to justify the cost. The and I am delighted to report that in International Festival of Music and 1966 already five tour operators in Dancing appears to be reviving itself Holland have included a tour of the Isle and already the Tourist Board has been of Man in their new itinerary. Where approached for financial help. Whether last year we counted Dutch visitors on or not this help will be given will de- our .fingers, this year we hope to count pend on the type of organisation who in hundreds, providing that we can runs it, the time of the year when it is meet their reasonable requirements to be held, and the number of visitors within a few years we could very well who will be attracted to see it, and who have a very important link here. In 1965 will be entertained by it. I believe that the total number of visitors spending the hon. member for Peel proposes to holidays in Britain's various resorts fell seek assistance in the matter of the by 500,000. In spite of this adverse trend acquisition of an addition to the Viking the total arrivals in the Isle of Man rose Festival fleet, that is to say another boat. slightly, thus continuing the trend The Deputy-Governor: What's wrong which has existed since 1963. We are with the Sirdar? (Laughter.) optimistic that this trend will continue in 1966, and preliminary reactions indi- Mr Quayle: An addition I understand, cate that at the moment business is and hasten to add, which apparently has running appreciably better than it was a revenue earning potential. This matter a year ago. However, I and my col- has not yet been considered by the leagues are deeply concerned with the Tourist Board, but we are aware of the lack of entertainment which will be interest of the hon. and gallant member. evident in Douglas this year. We hope We cannot at the moment say what the that all concerned in this matter will policy of the Board will be concerning do all in their •power to improve the literature for 1967 and 1968. It might be entertainment facilities. In 1965, jointly that the Isle of Man Guide, as you all with the British Travel Association, we know it, will disappear and be replaced commissioned a market survey to give by separate colour magazines and a us factual information on many aspects separate list of holiday accommodation. of the tourist trade. We now know that As printing costs are rising so rapidly 53 per cent, of all visitors who came to the Board will be fortunate if it does the Isle of Man lest year believe that not have to meet substantial rise in costs Douglas should have a swimming pool. no matter what policy we may adopt. 36 per cent felt that better entertain- Reference was made last year to our ment facilities were required, and 33 small efforts to attract tourists from per cent. felt that better beach facilities the continent, particularly from the were necessary. As compared with 10 Netherlands. In 1965, and it was a years ,ago food and catering is now very difficult operation to carry out to much less criticised than then. Where-

Tourist Board—Estimates Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1233 as dissatisfaction with the lack of enter- The standard of cleanliness of many of tainment and beach facilities is as our beaches has been criticised by various bodies, and I think with some justification. prominent as ever, if not more so. In Speaking about Britain, gentlemen, not the this context, sir, I would ask the Court Isle of Man. to listen to a Short extract from the But it is not only on the beaches that some supplement to the Travel Trade Gazette new ideas are needed. What about a bit of thought for those all-too-frequent inclement of the 11th March last, written the 11th days? March just gone. I have enough copies There is nothing so depressing as to see of this to give every member one. It is mum and dad and a couple of youngsters written by Dr. Myer Gee, ,a very well dragging around one of our seaside towns on known travel writer, he pinpoints some a wet day in their dripping plastic macs with nothing to do: of the advantages continental resorts And it is no good saying that Continental have over their United Kingdom rivals. resorts have rain, too. It is much more infrequent and when it does come it does not For those whose idea of a holiday is lazing usually last long. on a clean sandy beach with a warm sea to Nor is it any good adopting an ostrich atti- splash in, how much more Continental resorts tude and saying: 'Our visitors come back have to offer than the average U.K. ones! year after year and don't want anything In Italy, for instance, I have seen men new." sweeping the sands twice a day. Imagine Some of the visitors do come back year that in England'. after year, but more and more are going And the authorities sensibly provide ade- abroad. And when they do they are usually quate numbers of litter-bins so that there lost for ever. is every incentive not to leave rubbish What is more, teenagers are going abroad around. in increasing numbers and it is from their As an example of what I mean, in one ranks that the U.K. resorts' new visitors will northern U.K. resort on a Bank Holiday 1 have come in a few years' time. saw one refuse basket for an entire stretch So, when the youngsters of to-day have of foreshore. Needless to say, it was over- their own small families, even if they then flowing and no attempt was made to empty cannot afford a holiday abroad, they will it. certainly not be content with our present facilities. Human nature being what it is, one just cannot expect picnickers voluntarily to take My guess is that they will turn in increas- their empty bags Lnd papers home with ing numbers to holiday camps which do pro- vide something to do when it is cold and them. wet. The local authorities do not seem to do Or perhaps to a place like Douglas in the very much about implementing the Litter Isle of Man if that resort's far-sighted scheme Act. If they did, perhaps fewer children for putting a complete entertainment centre would suffer cut feet on the sands. under glass comes off. But there are other advantages at Con- Entertainment and attractions managers, tinental resorts, apart from the pleasure of the writing is on the wall! sitting on clean and tidy beaches. Generally, there are cabins in which to I welcome the impending arrival of the change. To my mind, there is nothing so new car ferry with all the problems this awkward as struggling to get into or out of will create. I trust that all authorities, a swimsuit under a (barely-concealing) towel, or having to watch others trying to do and in particular the police and the so. Corporation of Douglas will remember hardly glamorous!" says my wife—and the future 'prosperity of our resorts lie I quite agree. with the motoring visitor. 61 per cent. Then, of course, there are usually an of all British holidaymakers now go on adequate number of toilets (avoiding the indignity of the queues which are frequently holiday by motor -car. How we treat the seen in this Island or England). motoring visitor, and this means pro- Often, too, there are showers on the edge viding facilities for him to stop, and get of the sands. out of his car, and park in reasonable There is no doubt about it, U.K resorts proximity of his hotel, will determine will have to buck up their ideas and provide whether or not we shall share the grow- better facilities and amenities on the beach so that we can enjoy whatever sunshine does ing motor car trade. Now I turn to the filter through. Capital Estimates, it is rather a proud

Tourist Board—Estimates Approved. 1234 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

day, because it is the first time that the acknowledge our debt, in that we were Tourist Board has ever had a Capital able to use a portion of the Sea Termi- Estimate. Those members who know the nal which is ideal for our purpose. This conditions in 13 Victoria Street will was made ,available free of charge, but realise how unsuitable an office this is we have no guarantee that this facility for the Tourist Board. There are eight will continue year to year. I understand floors in use and some 99 stairs to that next year there is a possibility of a climb. Some of the rooms are so high Trades Exhibition, which may be held that two offices could be fitted in be- in the earlier part of the year, in the tween the floor and the ceiling. The Information Bureau is used by tens of Sea Terminal, and if this happens we thousands of visitors each year. To gain shall be lost. We have therefore taken access they have to climb two steps to advice from our architects who have the porch, and another step to the produced proposals for the complete re- Bureau. Many accidents have occurred construction of 13 Victoria Street which through elderly people missing these if carried out, will solve our problems. steps. The whole shop front is dingy However, we have taken no finial de- and victorian, and would have been re- cision, because there are many prob- placed years ago, if it had not been lems involved here, not least of which thought year by year that we would be is the fact that we don't own the build- moving anyway. Many of the people ing, and as the 'building is held in trust who have come to the Bureau have under an extremely complicated will, it problems which they wish to discuss in may be impossible to complete the pur- confidence. Complaints of various chase. We have felt, however, that we nature, permanent residents wanting should take some steps to inform the advice, boarding house keepers and Court of our intentions, and indeed of hoteliers with problems to discuss, and our needs, and this token vote has been during the summer there is only one included to test the Court in this matter. room, plus the Board Room which is I cannot guarantee that we will proceed most of the time a typing pool, where with , this work. Recently, another such interviews can take place. Once Government Department received these rooms are occupied, people have to notice to leave its premises, and it could wait considerable periods, frequently be that we would have to look again to confidential conversations have to take see whether we can produce a scheme place on the stairs, there being nowhere which could embrace both our require- else. By the very nature of its duties, the ments, but not necessarily in the present Tourist Board handles considerable office building. It might be other quantities of literature. The weight of premises which we would inspect to guides, folders, accommodation lists, provide better accommodation. How- posters, is in excess of 100 tons, there ever, we feel that after playing with are no storage facilities for this litera- this problem for something like 10 ture on the ground floor and its very years, we will have to do something in weight precludes U.S from carrying it the very near future. In conclusion, upstairs. Indeed the structure of the Your Excellency, may I personally, as building is such that the floors wouldn't this is the last year of this House, and the take them. As a result for a number of last opportunity to say it, thank all the years the Board has to rent temporary enumerable people who have helped the accommodation using the bars of the Tourist Board in many voluntary ways, Villiers Hotel, the Peveril Hotel for race promotions and in so many other winter storage and packing. This year directions; thank the members of my we have been most fortunate with the Board who have been excellent to work co-operation of the Harbour Board and with, the staff of the Tourist Board, and Mr Marsden, the tenant to whom I last but by no means least, the mem-

Tourist Board—Estimates Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1235 bers of this Court for their kind silence for many years with the very small when listening to my speech. I beg to number of visitors coming by air from move. Birmingham. British United Airways have had the licence to operate from Mr Colebourn: I beg to second and Birmingham to the Isle of Man for reserve my remarks. many years. Last summer I think was Mr J. M. Cain: Your Excellency, could the largest number we received and it I ..ask the chairman of the Tourist Board amounted to only approximately 2,000 one question? First of all I would like people. Now my Board have urged to congratulate him on the wonderful British United to increase their guide they have produced this year, I schedules, but we invariably get the see that it gave an income of £22,000, same answer, that provided there was expected and I see that it cost any indication of the demand they about £33,000, which for £11,000 is would increase the schedules. It makes well worth the money. It is the best me wonder whether the amount of medium for advertising this Island publicity in the Midlands area, which of any newspaper that they advertise after all contains an enormous poten- in, and from an Island point of tial, running into millions I would view I am sure that it is worth continu- imagine, between Birmingham, Coven- ing in its present form because from my try, Wolverhampton and so on, and the experience, one or two concerns that I population which is all in the higher am in, it is the best puller for enquiries income bracket, earning big money. I of any medium. I would just like to ask wonder if the chairman could tell me if the chairman this question. In view of they are satisfied with the amount of the fact that they have now gone down publicity the Board carries out in that to the new Pier Terminal, how does he district. I am sure that there should be find the enquiries down on the Pier an enormous traffic from the Midlands Terminal in comparison with the office area if it was sought out. in Victoria Street? I could imagine once Mr Creer: There is just one question the people have left the boats the en- quiry office down on the pier will be I would like to ask, Your Excellency. very poorly patronised if the main office The Deputy-Governor: You have taken is in Victoria Street. a new life. What did they give you in Mr Bell: I just wish to say, Your hospital? Excellency, that I hope the Finance Mr Creer: Anyway, Your Excellency, Board will take note of the Capital the one question I want to ask is, it is Estimates, £5,000 for this year, £7,500 something similar to the one the hon. possibly for a subsequent year, to com- member for Council has asked. It is plete the scheme of conversion. It is a about Halifax. I want to know if the printed £12,500—we know that means agent ever goes down there, because it £20,000 and if there is anything to sub- is a town with 80,000-100,000 population stantiate the need for new Government and we don't seem to be well advertised buildings provided that they are suit- down there. There is one other thing and ably placed, the Finance Board should this is very important, Your Excellency, take note of it. I would like to congratulate the chair- Mr Nicholls: Your Excellency, there is man of the Tourist Board on his just one question I would like to ask television appearance "On the Other the chairman of the Tourist Board and Island." I think it is worthy of having that is, could he give us some indication it recorded that he should be congratu- of the extent of the publicity they carry lated on that alone. out in the Midlands area of England? Mr Kelly: I would just like to ask the The reason I ask this question is that hon. chairman one question. Some years the Airports Board have been concerned ago when I was on the Tourist Board

Tourist Board—Estimates Approved.

1236 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 they had no postage fee to pay, and I, Some time ago I put it forward to the along with others, Persuaded them to Tourist Board that they take an office have a postage fee. Now for some reason in Norwich and send the folders and all the thousands of guides that have guides direct from there. I believe it was gone out, have gone out free. Foal' going to make a saving of something Sundays ago I took the trouble to count like £700 and I would just like to know the number of advertisements in one of why they wouldn't do something about the Sunday papers-44 of them adver- that. tising seaside resorts in the British Isles. Mr Kaneen: Your Excellency, when I Out of the 44, nine only were free and first came into this Court about 10 years I would like to know from the chairman ago I was a member of the Tourist why they are giving nearly £4,000 away Board and I always used to defend it in postage stamps rather than continu- on the advertising business, as I really ing on the old system? There must be believe in advertising. It was always some good reason for it. We have no rammed down my throat that the guarantee what we are going to get. Government in the Isle of Man was Mr Coupe: Your Excellency, I am spending more money on advertising quite prepared to leave the answers to than any other seaside resort in the these questions in the hands of my British Isles. Since then I took it to capable chairman, but there are just two heart and looked at the National Press things I would like to draw to the atten- religiously and every time the Tourist tion of this hon. Court. I asked a Board puts in an advert you see one for question a fortnight ago at the Tourist the Channel Islands, bigger. Now who Board meeting, "What was the amount is spending the money on them? I don't of money that Eire was spending on think that the National Press is putting publicity?" Because those of you who it in for nothing and either the Channel take the "Sunday Times" will notice Islands Government is spending it or the wonderful picture in there of Eire, a somebody is spending it and I am whole page they take in the colour perfectly certain that every penny that supplement. It is a wonderful advertise- is given to the Tourist Board is well ment every week. Well, sir, they are earned in advertising. spending at the moment over £2,000,000 Mr Quayle: The hon. member, Mr on advertising and they are trying to Cain, I thank him for his compliments get £3,000,000 out of their Government. to the guide. He did make reference to The other point I would like to bring to the use of the new pier terminal enquiry the notice of the hon. Court, my chair- office. I must be perfectly honest to the man has said we were in Holland. Here Court and say that this was a great dis- is a magazine issued by the counterpart appointment to the Tourist Board, this of the A.A. in Amsterdam and here is a is no fault of the Harbour Board, but full page dealing with the T.T. On the the position that has arisen is this, that top is a photograph of the Douglas we have had to maintain and staff our promenade and this one is a photograph old office in Victoria Street because of Peel. things to do with accommodation, com- Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, there is plaints and that sort of thing could not one question I would like to ask.I believe be dealt with at the pier terminal the figure was quoted of 100 tons of because there is only one open-fronted print coming to the Isle of Man. Now buffet—call it what you like. That presumably this literature is printed meant we had to double our staff for mostly in Norwich. The rail transport certain parts of the day. Admittedly the from Norwich to Liverpool, from enquiries are all when there is move- Liverpool by shin to the Isle of Man, ment of ships and the enquiries in then out again by post from the Isle of principal are what time does the next Man to all paces in the British Isles. boat go and what time is the next train

Tourist Board—Estimates Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1237 to Ramsey? This is not, we feel, our as best we can with the potential we function and therefore the Tourist have got. We have three travellers; one Board is looking very critically at this is pretty well based in Lancashire: one enquiry desk. is pretty well based in Scotland and the Mr Bell: Why was it designed like other tries to do the rest of Britain. that? These are rough boundaries,, but that is Mr Quayle: Well that is a difficult more or less where they are. Now you thing to answer. I made that clear it is just cannot do it with three people. We no fault of the Harbour Board. It is just realise that the Midlands should be a a question that we have to be in that wonderful ground for the Isle of Man. area and this may answer Mr Bell, the We had a very interesting offer rorn a hon. member for South Douglas, when gentleman named Mr Hanks, who was he talks about is this another case for at one time a very well-known motor- central Government. I cannot see how cycle driver over here, who fell in love the Tourist Board could be in any with the Island, and he is •now doing central Government building because much more than what we are paying we have to be under the feet of the for, that is about the only way I can visiting public. express it here. He has really gone to town to sell the Isle of Man including Mr Callister: It would depend where pictorially decorating his own van. So you put your central building though. the Midlands now, sir, is being looked Mr Quayle: Well, I agree, if the after. The hon. member for Ramsey, Mr central building was on Loch Promenade Kelly, commented about free postage. you removed all the accommodation for The time was when he was on the Board visitors, it would probably be a very it was free, it became a charge and this good site for central Government, but year it has gone free again. Well it can then there would be no need for a be argued two ways. What is our Tourist Board because there wouldn't purpose in life as a Tourist Board? It be any visitors. is (a) to advertise the Isle of Man — Mr Canister: Take over the Peveril how do you advertise the Isle of Man? Hotel block, that is the only place. In newspapers, on television etc. When Mr Quayle: Then the hon. member anybody answers your advert what do for Council, the chairman of the they get? And surely you want people Airports Board, Mr Nicholls, asked what to answer your advert because that is was the policy in the Midlands. This the object of the exercise. So you spread question came at a very apt time your advertising, so you produce a because we now have a policy in the lovely piece of literature and then you Midlands. For not many years have we throw a spanner in the works by saying had three representatives on the road. 5,4d. These three representatives have to Mr Kelly: What about the ls. ones cover Britain. Now this also covers the then? question of Halifax mentioned by Mr Creer. This is the old old story really Mr Quayle: Well, if we were to ask ls. of the usual comment we get, that sort it would certainly half our mailing list of thing, that Aunty Nelly couldn't get a and worse than that what the dickens guide in the Post Office at Little Tickle- would we do with all the stamps. The sham-in-the-Mud. Now it is a justified Post Office won't cash them, I can tell complaint, but if we had a guide with you that, they will not cash stamps to everybody who pertained to be any the value greater than 6d. thus the 5id. form of travel agent in Britain, we So we would have an awful lot of ls. would have none left to send to stamps, if any department of Govern- customers, because there are literally ment wanted ls. stamps they would have thousands of them. So we have to cover hundreds and thousands of the things.

Tourist Board—Estimates Approved. 1238 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

But quite seriously, we want to put no the Isle of Man, at least they are distraction in the mind of the possible serviced the same day as they come in customer in order to get our information and this is a tribute to the junior staff, into his hands. If Tynwald doesn't like the little girls down in the packing this policy we can soon put stamps back department. One particular day this on, but it has proved this year — the January, we serviced 12,000 enquiries in one day. Now this is big, it doesn't enquiries have shot up. Now there can sound a lot, but 12,000 addresses were be the criticism — oh that is school- typed out, 12,000 envelopes were filled, children writing for them — I have no 12,000 letters were sealed, they were doubt schoolchildren do write for the sorted by our own private post office Isle of Man guide. I am very pleased if and off they went, and that is a service they do — it lies around the house. we do attempt to guarantee to give. Secondly, many people will see some- thing in the Sunday newspaper, on the Mr Nivison: Postage is just the same spur of the moment that is an idea I from the Isle of Man as from Norwich. would like to go there, and you make Mr Quayle: Exactly. I don't think out your coupon straight away, oh con- there are any other points, sir, I thank found it. I haven't got six pennyworth Mr Coupe for his support and I thank of stamps, you throw it on one side and the Court for its tolerance. the enquiry is not made. It is to get over The Deputy-Governor: You have that, rather than making or. losing 6d. heard the resolution, all those in favour Mr MacLeod was on his hobby horse, say aye, to the contrary no. Carried he was on this when he was in the unanimously. Tourist Board actually, on carriage from Norwich. Now let me first of all say that what we get from Norwich is the high quality colour printing stuff which WATER BOARD—ESTIMATES we cannot have done locally, it is quite APPROVED impossible. We do bring it from Norwich by road transport to Liverpool. The The Deputy-Governor: Now No. 28. Steam Packet in the off-season are very The chairman of the Water Board. good to us in this direction. It does Mr H. S. Cain: Your Excellency, I beg arrive in the Isle of Man and that to move:— obviously costs money, but let us put a That Tynwald requests His Excellency, in packaging department in Jarrolds pack- consu:tation with the Finance Board, to give ing warehouse at Norwich. The average consideration in framing the budget to the packing girl in Norwich at this moment estimates of the Water Board as shown in the earns £14 a week, we can get temporary Book of Estimates for 1966/7. girls here and before the Civil Service The present estimates, the capital chairman leaps in and calls this—what estimates, are for the fifth phase of the is the word — a something of labour, scheme to cover work to the value of these are people who thoroughly look £61,000. The sum of £18,500 is required forward to cominp- to the Tourist Board to complete the 9" and 6" pipe from the every year because they enjoy the job, Braaid to Ballabeg. The 9" pipe will go but we get them a lot cheaper than £14 as far as Grenaby and then go down to a week, which I think is not unreason- Ballabeg to serve the south of the able. Our office overheads, as I said in Island, while the 6" pipe will remain for my speech, are negligible, in Norwich another year at Grenaby to serve the it would be a small fortune. You would higher land of upper Baldwin, Earystane wipe that £700, if that was the carriage and the top part of Ronague. Now charge, away in a week, that would be £6,500 is required for the completion gone in Norwich, so I think we do the of the 6" main from Douglas to Balla- best thing. At least they go out from craine, which will supplement supplies

Water Board—Estimates Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1239

to Peel, Cronk-y-Voddy and Kirk to the amount of money that has been Michael. The balance of £36,000 is for subscribed originally for this work and the covering of Ballagawne Reservoir. at the present time there is every indi- This, as you know, has been a case cation that the scheme can be completed where the water has been filtered and at a cost equivalent to the original remaining in an open reservoir and at estimates. I beg to move the estimates long last now we are trying to get that and capital estimates. covered over and at the present time Mr Quayle: I beg to second. there is a temporary reservoir which has been dug alongside, and that is It was agreed. supplying the water to the south, whilst they get the plans in for the aluminium reservoir. There has been a slight hold- SUPPLEMENTARY VOTES-l965/66 up, but we think now that everything will go according to plan. This is a case The Deputy-Govern or: Item 30, Sup- where we might say, sir, that this is the plementary Votes - Chairman of the fifth phase of the work and we think Finance Board. that the work will be carried out equal Mr Crowe: I beg to move sir-

1. That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to apply, during the year ended 31st March, 1966, from the current revenue of this Isle, a sum not exceeding £77,440 as set out in the First Schedule hereto, such sum to be additional to the sum of £5,198,877 voted by Tynwald on the 18th May, 1965. 2. (a) That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to expend during the year ending 31st March, 1966, from monies to be borrowed, sums not exceeding those set out in column 5 of the Second Schedule hereto totalling £58,317. (b) That Tynwald approves of borrowings not exceeding £39,420 as set out in column 6 of the said Second Schedule being made by the Government under the provisions of the Isle of Man Loans Act, 1958, for the purpose of meeting the foregoing expenditure in excess of existing loan sanctions, such borrowings to be repaid within the periods set out in column 7 of the said Schedule. FIRST SCHEDULE 1. Executive Government £24,820 2. Assessment Board 375 3. Board of Education 4,200 4. Health Services Board 44,640 5. Local War Pensions Committee 135 6. Manx Museum 920 7. Tourist Board 2,350

£77,440

SECOND SCHEDULE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Authorised Probable Loan Period Item Scheme Expenditure Expenditure Excess Sanction (years)

1. Castle Rushen High School 627 630 2. Willaston Primary School 1,875 1,875 3. Ramsey Grammar School 1,650 2,850 1,200 920 30 4. Quarterbridge Reconstruc- tion 10,000 14,000 4,000 8,000 40 5. Rural Housing Loans 16,000 16,000 10,000 40 6. Housing Private Enterprise Scheme 39,500 60,000 20,500 20,500 25 7. New Houses Clagh Vane 50,000 80,000 30,000 8. M.E.R. Stations Laxey and Ramsey 112 112

Totals 117,150 176,464 58,317 39,120

Supplementary Votes-1965/66

1240 'TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

Mr Kaneen: I beg to second. The Deputy-Governor: Is there any special explanation required? Mr Crowe: I don't think so, sir. This is mostly a case of increased salaries through the year, and is inevitable. The Deputy-Governor: Are we agreed? It was agreed.

SUPPLEMENTARY CAPITAL VOTES 1964/65 The Deputy-Governor: Item 31, Sup- plementary Capital Votes. Mr Crowe: I beg to move— (1) That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man be authorised to expend during the year ended 31st March, 1965, from monies to be borrowed, sums not exceeding those set out in column 5 of the Schedule hereto totalling £23,208. (2) That Tynwald approves of borrowings not exceeding £250, as set out in column 6 of the said Schedule, being made by the Government under the provisions of the Isle of Man Loans Act, 1958, for the purpose of meeting the foregoing expenditure in excess of existing loan sanctions, such borrowings to be repaid within the periods set out in column 7 of the said Schedule. SCHEDULE

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Authorised Actual Loan Period Item Scheme Expenditure Expenditure Excess Sanction (years) £ £ £ £ 'Mar 1. Rural Housing Acts 18,000 21,621 3,621 — — 2. Agricultural Workers' Tied Houses 12,000 15,381 3,381 — — 3. Laxey/Ramsey Road 2,000 3,150 1,150 250 30 4. Douglas /Peel Road Im- provements 7,000 13,310 6,310 5. Ballasalla Road Improve- ments — 1,000 1,000 — — 6. Police Garages — 1.024 1,024 — — 7. Laxey and Ramsey Stations — 6,722 6,722 _ _ Totals , 39,000 62,208 23,208 250

il The Deputy-Governor: Is this exactly j, the same? 1 Mr Crowe: It is sir, but we are going back a year further. The Deputy-Governor: Is that agreed? It was agreed.

Supplementary Capital Votes 1964/65 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966 1241

EDUCATION—ST. MARY'S ROMAN Sir Henry Sugden: I beg to second, CATHOLIC SCHOOL Your Excellency. The Deputy-Governor: Chairman of The Deputy-Governor: Anyway you the Board of Education. are moving item No. 32. Is that agreed? Mr Kneale: Your Excellency, I beg to It was agreed. move- The Deputy-Governor: Very well, that Whereas Tynwald on the 16th June, 1964, approved of the transfer of St Mary's Roman completes Agenda No. 2. We will now Catholic School to a new site at an estimated go back to Agenda No. 1. cost of ,£74,000. Mr Bolton: May I suggest sir— And whereas the details of the scheme have been varied and tenders received therefor The Deputy-Governor: Just a moment. showing that the total cost of the school has I propose to hold over No. 4, that is been increased to £113,833 (of which approxi- mately £45,573 will be chargeable to the Hovercraft and Hydrofoils. I don't know Education Authority and £68,280 to the School whether there is any other proposal for Managers). nomination to the M.E.R. Board — is Resolved that Tynwald— there likely to be more than one? (1) confirms the transfer of the school to the new site as the revised estimated cost of Mr Bell: There is likely to be another £113,833; one. (2) increases the grant to the Education The Deputy-Governor: Another one, Authority from a sum of £6,000 to a sum not exceeding £34,180; then supposing we hold over No. 4—are (3) increases the grant to the managers of the you agreeable to that, gentlemen? Mr school from a sum of £33,000 to a sum Speaker is agreeable. Very well, can we not exceeding £34,040; deal with No. 5? (4) authorises borrowings not exceeding £52,720 being made by the Government Mr Bolton: The owner of the land is under the provisions of the Isle of Man entitled to be given notice of the fact Loans Act, 1958, for the purpose of meet- that it is to be dealt with today. ing expenditure under the foregoing paragraphs of this resolution, such bor- The Deputy-Governor: He must be rowings to be repaid within a period of given notice. thirty years and to be additional to the borrowings of £15,500 authorised by Tyn- Mr Bolton: He has had notice of the wald on the 16th June, 1964. proceedings, but he is not present and I It is in accordance 'with the Act, sir, the know he intended to be present for the explanation for the increase is a very debate. simple one, that the Catholic Authorities The Deputy-Governor: I am going to called in an English architect who was suggest that these items might well go completely "up the pole" as far as Manx over to the next Tynwald, instead of prices were concerned. The cost of this having to come in specially next Tues- school is in agreement with other day. Then you can arrange your own schools we have had, and that is the business without interference from reason to 'bring it into line with other anybody. So if you are agreeable, all Manx schools. that is left in Agenda No. 1 is No. 4. The Deputy-Governor: What is hap- Hovercraft and Hydrofoils; No. 5, Com- pening to the old school when they pulsory Purchase of Land; No. 6, the move up there? Are we getting that for M.E.R. appointment, and now I am nothing? going to suggest that those items be Mr Kneale: I don't know what will adjourned until the next Tynwald happen. That is up to the Government Court, not a special meeting next Ito make their own move. I have been Tuesday. advocating this for a long time, and it Mr MacLeod: Your Excellency, I was is time Government were making a going to ask, why it Item No. 6 be left move. over?

Education—St. Mary's Roman Catholic School 1242 TYNWALD COURT, MARCH 23, 1966

The Deputy-Governor: Because there The Speaker: Could I give a word of is likelihood of other nominations. explanation on this point, Your Excel- lency. I received a letter from Sir Ralph Mr Corkhill: Your Excellency, because Stevenson, chairman of the committee, other nominations are going to dome asking if I would put this nomination forward? Isn't this the date that this to the House in his absence, I feel it was to be decided? advisable that in view of the thin Mr Bolton: There is no quorum House that is present at the moment, present in the Council. We couldn't deal Your Excellency, and in the interest of with it. the chairman, that it should be held over, and indeed in the interest of the The Deputy-Governor: Apart from nominee. that, just because you nominated or recommended, Mr Corkhill, it doesn't Mr Bolton: In any case, there isn't a say that I should give special quorum in Council. The Deputy-Governor: Don't let us go Mr Corkhill: Who said I recommended into technicalities. Will somebody move it? and somebody second that we hold over The Deputy-Governor: I have heard the remaining items on the Agenda that, sir. No. 1? Mr Corkhill: You have heard! Well I Mr Bell: I beg to move. think that is a very poor statement for Mr Coupe: I beg to second. you to make. It was agreed. The Deputy-Governor: That is what I have heard, and if I'm wrong I am The Deputy-Governor: Well Mr sorry. Speaker and hon. members, that con- cludes the business of this Tynwald. The Mr Corkhill: I have heard a lot of Council will now retire and the Mem- things too, which I have found later to bers of the House of Keys will remain be incorrect. to transact such further business as The Deputy-Governor: That's all right may be placed before them, and thank too. you all very much indeed, gentlemen.

HOUSE OF KEYS

Wednesday, March 23, 1966

The Speaker: Gentlemen. I have to inform you that I have received notice of intention from the hon. member Mr Kneale, that he will ask leave at the next sitting of the House to introduce a Bill, which will have the effect of stabilising the number of members of the House of Keys in the Executive Council. Now gentlemen, I propose to adjourn the House to Tuesday fortnight, 5th April, in our own Chamber, at 11.00 a.m. Thank you.

Education—St. Mary's Roman Catholic School