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COMIC BOOK CREATOR #14 BLOODWORK: THE ART OF • SONNY LIEW THEE RAINA TELGEMEIER DREW FRIEDMAN IN LIBRARY • HEMBECK

™

A TwoMorrows Publication No. 14, Winter 2017

$8.95 in the USA All characters TM & © DC Comics. TM & © Condé Nast. 6 4 6 0 0 0 8 5 6 2 8 1

1 82658 00064 6 also: RAINA TELGEMEIER • THE GHOSTS OF BOB KANE • SONNY LIEW • DREW FRIEDMAN Winter 2017 • Voice of the Comics Medium • Number 14 TABLE OF CONTENTS

DEAD-WOODY Ye Ed’s Rant: Keeping Up with Jones...... 2 CBC mascot by J.D. KING COMICS CHATTER ©2016 J.D. King. About Zeitgeist: Talking with Singapore’s Greatest , Sonny Liew, Our Cover about his life and recent magnum opus, The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye...... 3 Art by KELLEY JONES Incoming: Extra-long letters o’ comment section on our ish...... 12 Colors by GLENN The Trouble With Bob: Will Murray examines the troublesome legacy of Bob Kane, WHITMORE spurned co-creator , and the caped crusader’s many ghosts...... 18 Raina Telgemeier’s Smiling Army: Correspondent Eti Berland looks into the phenomenal success of the lauded graphic novelist and her of fans...... 24 Comics in the Library: Rich Arndt on Marc Tyler Nobleman’s books about comics..... 27 Drew Friedman’s Hero Worship: Rob Smentek talks to the amazing caricaturist and recent author of More Heroes of the Comics...... 28 Hembeck’s Dateline: Our Man Fred on forgotten Brit artist Leopold “Lee” Elias...... 31 THE MAIN EVENT Bloodwork: The Art of Kelley Jones. In a massive and totally geeked-out rap Characters TM & © DC Comics. Above: Kelley Jones graces session, longtime Jones pal Peter Quinones conducts a thoroughly exhaustive, his CBC cover with three of career-spanning interview with the comic book professional in a conversation his signature characters at DC Comics, Batman, , that covers the artist’s love of movies, music, and weird fiction, as as and . Memorably, the Kelley’s enormous body of comics work. The chat details his earliest years as artist would join with writer Doug , breakout with his two Deadman prestige format mini-series, Moench, inker John Beatty, and , to produce 34 mind-bending “” graphic novels (starring Batman as a vampire), three- issues of Batman in the mid-’90s year stint as monthly Batman artist, and his forays outside DC, including his work within a 37-month time frame. His Deadman, of course, was on the creator-owned The Hammer and other Dark Horse assignments, along featured in and with recent Swamp Thing work and upcoming Batman: Master of Fear. We also in two mini-series, all written by include a breathtaking gallery of Kelley Jones artwork courtesy of the artist...... 32 . Of late, Kelley has drawn Swamp Thing for a two-is- BACK MATTER sue run in 2015, as well as a six-issue series written by , published in 2016. Creators at the Con: The debut of Kendall Whitehouse’s photo feature...... 76

If you’re viewing a Digital Coming Attractions: Announcing the Archosaurs and Automobiles of .... 77 Edition of this publication, PLEASE READ THIS: A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Kelley Jones’ Deadman presentation art.... 80 This is copyrighted material, NOT intended for downloading anywhere except our Right: The creation of and Kelley Jones, the Elseworlds vampire Batman. Here is a detail of website or Apps. If you downloaded it from another website or torrent, go ahead and Kelley’s cover art for the collection, Elseworlds: Batman Vol. 2, which includes all the vampire stories. read it, and if you decide to keep it, DO THE RIGHT THING and buy a legal down- load, or a printed copy. Otherwise, DELETE IT FROM YOUR DEVICE and DO NOT Vol. 1 & 2 are now available SHARE IT WITH FRIENDS OR POST IT as digital downloads from twomorrows.com! ANYWHERE. If you enjoy our publications enough to download them, please pay for them so we can keep producing ones like this. Our digital editions should ONLY be downloaded within our Apps and at Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, www.twomorrows.com Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: [email protected] subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $40 Stan-

COMIC BOOK CREATOR dard US, $60 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their is a proud joint production of creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2017 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING. comic book zeitgeist Singapore’s Greatest CBC talks with graphic novelist Sonny Liew about The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye by JON B. COOKE CBC Editor The Early Years Though he and his older sister, Cheryl, were born in Ma- The appeal of the art of Sonny Liew isn’t easy to simply laysia, they had moved to the tiny city-state of Singapore state, but suffice to say I know what I like and I’ve loved when Sonny was about five years old. “My parents sent his work for quite some time now, ever since we first met us over because they thought that Singapore had a better and he opened his portfolio at a Comic-Con International: educational system, which was taught in English, while San Diego, in the early 2000s. Malaysia’s schools used One look at the Singapore the Malay language.” Their artist’s charming, engaging, father was a practicing phy- humorous, and tremendously sician and the Liew siblings energetic work made me a experienced a middle-class fan for life, and I immediately upbringing. Sonny (whose enlisted him to share sketch- Chinese name is Jing Xian) book pages for a Comic Book and his sister would copy Artist feature back in ’04, and stuff from comics and I’ve been an avid follower illustrated children’s ever since. books, he said. “Dennis So to say I was stunned the , Mickey to pick up an advance copy Mouse, all those of The Art of Charlie Chan things… everything we Hock Chye [Pantheon, ’16] at saw, we would make a Niantic, , used drawings. Back in those bookstore is an understate- days, she would win ment. Sonny’s first bona fide prizes in school for her is, in the apt art.” He adds with a laugh, words of NPR’s Fresh , “She never had a real a “tour de ,” one that interest in it, but she gives us a biography of a was definitely a fictional Singapore comics better artist than creator while simultaneously I was.” (Cheryl, depicting the very real polit- who studied ical history of the Southeast economics at Asian island city-state. This Cambridge, ambitious story is partly England, and told through extraordinary attended pastiches of a diverse array Harvard, of sources — ’s worked at , ; Batman: Morgan by Stan- ; ’ Un- ley and is today a tech cle Scrooge; and even the E.C. search recruiter, in San of — all culminating to give Francisco.) a moving and effective masterwork by a While there wasn’t supremely talented artist who has matured much of a comics scene into a creative force to be reckoned with. to speak of in his adopted Thus this past spring, when Sonny country while he visited his alma mater, the Rhode was growing up, Island School of Design, I jumped “In the ’80s,” at the chance to attend his presen- Sonny says, tation and the artist kindly agreed “there was a bit of to sit for an interview. The following a boom, because of biographical profile had been distilled the influence of Batman: from his lecture and our talk and has been The Dark Knight Returns, and

©2016 Sonny Liew. TM & © DC Comics. The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye ©2016 Sonny Liew. copyedited by Sonny for accuracy and clarity. some comics were being brought in from Hong Kong and Taiwan. There was Top inset: The U.S. edition of Sonny Liew’s excellent new book, a slight increase of creators doing original The Art of Charlie Chan Hock Chye. Above inset: Detail from work in Singapore, but before that there really Sonny’s Doctor Fate #2 cover. Top right: Cover for the Singapore was not a lot of stuff being produced (though edition of Sonny’s latest book. Right: Photo of Sonny taken during there were ample strips).” That is, his visit to the Rhode Island School of Design this past April. in comparison with another Asian comics pro-

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14 3 a story The Trouble with Bob Though professing to be sole producer of Batman, Bob Kane had much “ghostly” help

by WILL MURRAY The truth behind Bob Kane is more complex than that. Batman began when editor Vincent Bob Kane would have turned 100 on October 24, 2015. A Sullivan asked Kane for a strip similar to “” in late solid century after the self-proclaimed creator of Batman 1938 or early 1939. was born, he is remembered today as two entirely different “I was at DC Comics doing fill-ins for an editor named personalities. There is the celebrated Bob Kane who Vincent Sullivan,” recalled Kane. “I was doing slapstick Below: Given Bob Kane’s created Batman. Period. Then there is the Bob Kane who comics, funny drawings like Mutt and Jeff, rather than the predilection to sign work that co-created Batman with writer Bill Finger, and who early on illustrative type. Superman was born, and the year of 1938 was not made by his hand, it’s unknown whether all but bowed out of drawing his own creation, leaving the is historic. The character changed the whole complexion co-creator was the true artist task to a small army ghost artists, as well as other writers. of the comic-book industry at that time. In January 1939, behind this painting, a pastiche It has been fashionable these days to minimize Bob we were speaking and Vince said, ‘Do you think you could of the immortal Detective Kane’s contributions to his own character, and elevate writ- come up with another super-hero?” I had shown him Comics #31 [Sept. 1939] cover. er Bill Finger to the status of the true creator. Kane himself sketches of Gordon that I copied. I was a very good Whatever the provenance, made self-serving statements during his life that he was the copycat. Although I preferred the comic slapstick stuff, I Kane is credited on this image main originator of the Guardian of City have helped was able to do the illustrative type if I wanted to. used as one of a set of five to relegate his seminal role to that of mere observer or “So, I said, ‘Of course, Vince. How much are they lithograph produced in 1978. enabler status for more talented people. making a week?’ I think they were making $800 apiece and I was making $35 or $40 a week. I said if I can come up with a super-hero and make their kind of money, I sure will! He wasn’t looking for another Superman. He was looking for Above: Cover for : another super-hero. He said not to copy it, but to emulate it. The Life and Work of a Comic I took the figure of Superman and started putting tracings Book and over it. First, I called him Bird-Man. He had bird wings.” Visionary by . Pub- Comic book history might today remember Bob Kane as lished by North Atlantic Books, the creator of an early version of , but the artist the biography features a recalled a he had seen, The Whispers. forward by Richard A. Lupoff. “The story was about a lot of murders in an old man- sion,” admitted Kane. “I remember shadowy-like Excerpt from Otto Binder figures on the wall when he by Bill Schelly, published by was about to kill someone. North Atlantic Books, ©2016 They caught up with him Bill Schelly. Reprinted by in the attic––he wore a permission of the publisher. costume that looked a little like my early Batman’s, with gloves, a mask, and scal- loped wings. He looked like a bat––very ominous.” Over a weekend, Kane toiled on what he dubbed “-Man,” tracing an pose and noodling it. He called in a friend, Bill Finger, who had aspirations to become a writer. “So, I came up with a very crude drawing. Bill came over on a Sunday and

he looked at the sketch. It had bat wings attached to the Batman, Detective Comics TM & © DC Comics. shoulders to look like a bat. Of course, that would inhibit him in his actions during fighting scenes. So, we rearranged it so that it would become more of a cape and swoop about like wings and flight when he’s was swinging on a rope. “I knew that of that should be dark and I had a on him. But I think I might have had a red union suit in- stead of the gray one. The initial colors were not the colors that finally emerged. They were much brighter. Bill told me to subdue them. I got it down pretty much the way you see it on the Detective Comics [#27, May 1939] cover.”

18 #14 • Winter 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR Finger’s recollections closely match Kane’s: “He had an idea for a character called Batman, and he’d like me to see the drawings. I went over to Kane’s, and he had drawn a character who looked very much like Superman with kind of… reddish tights, I believe, with boots… no gloves, no gauntlets… with a small domino mask, swinging on a rope. He had two stiff wings sticking out, looking like bat wings. And under it was a big sign… Batman.“I got Webster’s Dictionary down off the shelf and was hoping they would have a drawing of a bat, and sure enough they did. I said, ‘Notice the ears, why don’t we duplicate the ears?’ I suggested he draw what looked like a cowl. He experimented with various cowls. I suggested he bring the cowl nose-piece down and make him mysterious and not show any eyes at all. I was very much influ- enced by The Shadow and , the , things of that sort.” Finger did not mean ’s Phantom, but the hero of Detective . The January 1939 issue, probably not by new masked and cloaked hero called the , who Above: Bob Kane during the coincidence, pitted the Phantom against a cloaked and looked uncannily like Batman’s cousin, and a lawsuit was Batman TV era posing with a masked villain calling himself the Bat. avoided through the intercession of , who painting of the Dynamic Duo In later years, Falk himself singled out Batman as a had worked for both companies. It was agreed that the that was quite likely not painted blatant imitation of his pioneering costumed hero. Black Bat would stay in the pulps and Batman would never by the man. “The Phantom started in , in 1936, in the leave the four-color realm. Below: Among the influences Journal American. These guys all read it, and within ten But Kane and Finger were not above purloining the that spawned Batman were years they had started direct copies, and they gradually Black Bat’s finned gauntlets for their Gothic hero. Similar pulp crimefighters The Shadow developed their own things. And then others copied them, gloves soon appeared on Batman. and Black Book Detective’s and then the whole super-hero school began. Batman was “They stole our character, so we stole their gloves,” Black Bat. an imitation of the Phantom. The versus the Skull insisted Finger. . It was a direct imitation. The Shadow was the rich playboy, and Batman took that direction. He is a playboy, Batman was an you see. He could not have copied the character of the instant hit, and Kane Phantom more closely than if he had taken it out and pasted realized he needed it in his strip, I think.” help, inasmuch as he While Kane and Finger freely admitted that they were had been working in the most influenced by The Shadow, it was not until long after big-foot cartoon style up their passing that the truth came out. For the Batman’s de- until then. but, “Case of the Chemical Syndicate,” both men ransacked the November 1, 1936, issue of The Shadow, featuring was the first ghost Kane “Partners of Peril.” Finger compressed the novel into six hired for Batman. A fellow pages. Nor was Kane ignorant of that fact. His art, normally Bronx resident, Moldoff full of swipes from Alex Raymond and elsewhere, also was only 16 when they copied one of Tom Lovell’s Shadow interior illustrations! began working togeth- “My first script was a take-off of a Shadow story,” er. Initially, Shelly did Finger admitted. backgrounds and lettering, Detective Comics #27 featured the strange character’s starting with the second debut. A month later, the Thrilling pulp chain released a Batman story. Captain Marvel, ! TM & © DC Comics

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14 19 the telgemeier allure Raina’s Smiling Army Eti Berland examines the appeal of Raina Telgemeier’s popular graphic novels

by ETI BERLAND

A Huge Thank You! In a cavernous theater packed to the gills with young peo- Eti Berland extends her appre- ple and their families, excitement is mounting as the horde ciation to all who contributed eagerly awaits the appearance of the guest of honor. Since to this article, including Raina the author event was first announced, they have been Telgemeier, Rebecca Oxley, counting down to this very moment. And they have arrived Michael Gianfrancesco, Laura prepared; some even go as far as cosplaying characters, Given, Carol Tilley, Jennifer bringing handcrafted fan art, and of course, carrying multi- Billingsley, Ronell Whitaker, ple copies of books to get signed. So, when graphic novelist Scott Robins, Elisa Gall, Tom phenom Raina Telgemeier takes the stage, her ardent fans Spicer, and Alice Son. cheer with wild abandon, their love for their favorite author knowing no bounds. During the next hour, Telgemeier shares an unforget- table program of interactive readers’ theater, behind-the- scenes stories, and an audience Q&A that allows fans a chance to ask their most pressing queries. She then manag- explains Laura Given, a K–8 library media specialist from Inset: Raina and just some of es the vast signing line with grace and aplomb, engaging her young, enthusiastic fans. . “The palette is bright with light colors. Many of with each reader who tries to express why her books mean the shadows in Smile are done with a darker color block so much to them. With eyes aglow of wonder and glee, they and not hatching, which makes the pages feel more open declare that they are her biggest fans. and light.” But what inspires Telgemeier’s army of young aficiona- Carol Tilley, comics scholar and professor at the Univer- dos who are each obsessed with her graphic novels and sity of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana, points out, “Her use of Below: Portrait of the graphic comics, re-reading them repeatedly until the pages are bold, flat colors, along with a nearly iconic representational novelist herself, Raina Telge- frayed and the binding is worn (a sure sign of true love)! style, draw in readers. All together it’s an enticing, com- meier, taken by Kendall White- What are the elements of Telgemeier’s stories that encour- forting, and delicious bowl of comics mac-and-cheese.” house at the 2016 Comic-Con age continued and new readership and intense loyalty? Telgemeier’s superior attention to detail supports an immer- International: San Diego. And what provokes passionate librarians and educators to sive reading experience. She creates entire worlds within integrate Telgemeier’s work her stories that captivate readers’ senses. “The beauty of into their collections and the Raina-verse is that the works are all so cohesive,” says classrooms, and advocate Jennifer Billingsley, a librarian at Lake County Public Library for the importance of her District, in Indiana. “Even when she jumps from autobiogra- comics in young readers’ phy to fiction, the difference in narrator’s perspective is not lives? This throng of fans jarring. Readers get the same feel from her works, so if they is and powerful, and like the first one, they will keep coming back for more.” they have a pivotal role in Comics open doors for young people to the joy of read- the story of Telgemeier’s ing since the blend of text and images support their literacy great success. skills. When Ronell Whitaker, a high school English teacher Any discussion of Tel- at Eisenhower High School, in , asked his students gemeier’s kid appeal must to rate Smile, they responded with, “I liked the drawing Otto Binder: The Life and Work of a Comic Book and Science Fiction Visionary ©2016 Bill Schelly. begin with her exceptional style,” or “It was funny,” or “That was real, Mr. Whitaker,” art. Telgemeier uses sophis- or his favorite response, “I knew I could finish it.” This last ticated artistic techniques comment made the biggest impression on Whitaker, who to show deliberate body works primarily with at- freshmen. “So many of my kids language, expressive facial are intimidated by reading, “ he explained, “and I love that expressions, and pitch-per- Smile put them at ease almost immediately.” fect dialogue. Rebecca Whitaker adds, “I sometimes come across readers, Oxley, a teacher-librarian young and adult, who are reluctant to try comics. Telgemei- in Prince George’s County er’s work does a great job of breaking down those barriers Public Schools, in Maryland, because her characters are approachable, her style is not shares, “Stylistically, her overly complex, and the self-contained novels she writes character design is ap- don’t require a ton of knowledge about backstory.” Readers pealing and approachable; of all shapes, sizes, and ability levels enjoy Telgemeier’s her linework is elegant and stories. Scott Robins, a children’s librarian at Don Mills expressive.” Young readers Branch of the Toronto Public Library, shares, “I’ve had are drawn to her visual discussions with parents about Raina’s work and how much storytelling that allows them they appreciate it as well, and how much they love how her to read the pictures. “The books have inspired their children to read — boys, girls, style is inviting — especially strong readers, and reluctant readers. It just goes to show to new comics readers,” the wide appeal her books possess.”

24 #14 • Winter 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR In a variation of that old adage, give a child Smile and she presents.” This page: Raina Telgemeier they’ll read graphic novels for the rest of their life. Elisa In Smile, young Raina’s mother explains that “lots of is that rare bird in the world of Gall, a lower school librarian at the Latin School of Chicago, kids wear funny stuff to help fix their bodies… You probably graphic novels: a popular as emphasizes the importance of Telgemeier’s work to the don’t realize it because no one talks about it.” Frustrated, well as critical favorite, and development of young readers’ understanding of visual Raina yells, “Well, maybe someone should start talking it!!” her books have earned her a texts. “For many kids, Smile bridges the gap between their And then she thinks to herself, “Maybe it would make us legion of fans, both young and perception of short picture books and longer forms of visual feel less like freaks.” This exchange captures the ethos of old (though, admittingly, mostly rhetoric,” Gall explains. “Experiencing one of her graphic Telgemeier’s work as she sheds light on painful moments young). Smile (A Dental Drama), her autobiographical story of novels for the first time tells them that reading pictures is and awkward incidents with humor and sincerity. The Raina’s middle school and high a life-long thing and isn’t something one leaves behind in accessibility of her stories, both in format and content, lets school years was followed up second grade.” young readers know they are not alone as they struggle with a sequel, Sisters. Both As young readers age, they can find stories by Telge- with the dramas of adolescence. books earned the cartoonist meier that connect to the emotional truths of each mile- As a creator of stories that provide authentic portraits of Eisner Awards, as well as stone in their journey. By telling her own stories, she shows adolescent lives, Telgemeier has been highly regarded for innumerable other accolades a vulnerability that feels authentic and relatable, which, her inclusion of diverse characters in her graphic novels. in the publishing world. In May as Scott Robins sees it, “Creates a real intimacy between Educators are particularly appreciative of her portrayal of of 2015, four of her efforts took reader and writer that kids rarely get with reading other queer characters in Drama, a story set in middle school, the top spots on the New York books.” Everyday real-life stories of childhood, from the which reflects the realities of adolescent development. Times “Best Selling Paper- horrors to the glories, are presented as valuable and worthy When Drama was listed as number 10 on the American back Graphic Books” list, an of being told. “It’s a formative time of life where kids are Library Association’s list of frequently challenged books, unprecedented achievement. just starting to really discover who they are, who they want librarians rallied to support it, writing articles and taking to As seen below, the artist/writer to be, and what’s important to them,” says Rebecca Oxley. social media to protect young people’s right to read. Re- has also produced a number of “The reader can identify with moments in Raina’s life while becca Oxley argues, “Raina’s earnest portrayal of life as a Babysitters Club graphic novels, experiencing the excitement of someone else’s story.” kid has drawn light upon comics as an influential agent for published by Scholastic Books. Laura Given adds, “Raina (the character) feels like a diversity. To me, the fact that Drama made this year’s ‘ALA real, flawed and likable kid. She feels like a friend.” Telge- Banned/Challenged Books’ is just further proof that meier conveys not only what happened to her, but how she Raina’s comics have made a major and lasting as a felt at the time, as Tom Spicer, teen services supervisor at whole and get people talking.” Arlington Heights Memorial Library, in Illinois, points out. Telgemeier is aware of her audience, the “Her effectiveness at portraying exactly how she felt when range of their experiences and backgrounds, she was that age is very powerful.” Children need that and responds in kind in her stories. Oxley sense of validation and respect, where stories serve as shares a powerful story that illustrates this windows and mirrors in their lives. fact. “I did a read-aloud of Dave Roman and Alice Son, a teen librarian at Arlington Heights Memorial Raina Telgemeier’s story ‘The Rainy Day Mon- Library, asks, “Remember when the most important thing in itor,’ from Comics Squad: Recess, to grades your life was whether or not your crush liked you back? It first through third grade using a document consumed you! But for teens who are living it, the failures, camera,” she explains. “One of my Muslim embarrassments, and victories of these characters are felt students exclaimed, “Look, Mrs. Oxley! She with a greater intensity because, for them, the panels are has a headscarf just like me!” Raina’s decision a mirror to their lives.” Telgemeier’s stories resonate with to depict diversity in her work helps kids to readers, encouraging empathy for others and a deeper un- see themselves in her stories.” derstanding of one’s own experiences. By creating stories Telgemeier’s books appeal to all kinds of that are rich in unique details, they become universal in readers, including readers, as Laura Given appeal. “She has found the pulse of adolescents,” asserts puts it, “who are not normally drawn in by Michael Gianfrancesco, a teacher at Rhode Island’s North , super-hero, and adventure stories,” Providence High School and co-host of the League of Ex- but who enjoy contemporary realistic tra-Nerdy Parents podcast. “When a kid picks up one of her fiction and memoir. In an industry that has books, they see some part of themselves in the characters often been dominated by male creators Captain Marvel, Shazam! TM & © DC Comics

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14 25 the friedman treatment Drew’s Hero Worship Talking with the great caricaturist about his new book, More Heroes of the Comics

by ROB SMENTEK crop, the , the essentials, the innovators. So, of course, you had to include , Siegel and Shuster, For Drew Friedman, the real and , Harvey Kurtzman, , , comic book heroes aren’t and the Gaineses,” said Friedman. “The second book has a the caped crusaders lot more obscure people, but all of them certainly talented, or wall-crawlers found some of them incredibly talented, many of them unheralded, within the pages of the and some of them cult figures. I have to say I still had to magazine. Forget Superman, leave out people from the second book, mainly because I Batman, and Spider-man, couldn’t find reference material.” the acclaimed illustrator — Although Friedman claims that he is, by no means, an known for his hyper- expert in comics, they have been a ubiquitous part of his realistic portraits that have life. As a boy, Drew and his brothers were exposed to comic graced the pages of diverse books through their father, acclaimed novelist, playwright, publications like Spy, The and screenwriter Bruce Jay Friedman, who would bring New Yorker, and National home comic books each week… directly from their source. Lampoon — is way more “I was a comic fan from the get-go because my dad interested in the men behind worked at Magazine Management,” Drew said, “which, of the heroes… more specifi- course, was Martin Goodman’s company. worked cally, the pioneers who es- in the office next to my dad for 12 years [1954–66] when he sentially created the comic was editing men’s adventure magazines. As a kid, my dad book medium in the period would deposit stacks them in our bedroom every Friday between 1935 and ’55. night when he got home from work. And, when we’d visit Recently, him in the office, I’d make a beeline for , released More Heroes of where Stan was the emperor and held court.” the Comics, a follow-up These visits remain special memories to Friedman. to Friedman’s 2014 book “[Stan] couldn’t have been more charming or nicer, Heroes of the Comics, especially when he learned I wanted to be an artist,” he featuring exquisitely crafted recalled. “He paid special attention to me and would say portraits and biographies of ‘Someday Drew is gonna draw for Marvel,’ which I loved Above: The creators of the various artists, writers, editors, and money-men from the hearing.” super-hero genre, golden age of comic books. Although the sequel includes But it wasn’t just Marvel comics that captivated the and adorn the 100 more additional profiles — ranging from comics’ giants young Friedman, it was the entire medium. Friedman cites cover of Drew Friedman’s latest like and to long-time workhors- MAD, the magazines, and even the mid-’60s Mort collection of comic book cre- es like and Jerry Grandenetti, and even Weisinger-edited DC comics as heavy influences. “They ator portraits, More Heroes of little-known figures such as Orrin C. Evans and just spoke to me,” he admitted. “It was if they the Comics, published by Fanta- Abe Kanegson — Friedman had no plans to were calling directly to me and were being graphics. Below: Its predeces- assemble a second volume after Heroes published just for me, that’s how essen- sor, Heroes of the Comics, was of the Comics was published. tial they were to my life. And from a published in2014. Inset right: “I was kinda done with the sub- very early age, maybe as early as One luminary to emerge from ject when I put out the first book,” six, I just knew that I wanted to be the comics biz was Patricia explained the artist, “but I knew involved in that kind of work, that Highsmith, who would go on to I was leaving out some people, world, visual storytelling.” become a prolific novelist. so that kept nagging at me. Alas, as the Marvel Age ex- Then people kept contacting ploded, Friedman lost interest me and asking ‘how come in mainstream comics, and isn’t in the book’ instead looked to be an artist or ‘How come for Topps trading cards or isn’t in the book?’ And I had become one of the “Usual really no answer other than Gang of Idiots” behind MAD ‘Yeah, they should be in the magazine. However, in 1972, book… I just ran out of time he found himself back in the and space.’” legendary House of Ideas as Brisk sales of Heroes of an employee… of sorts…for a the Comics afforded the artist week-long work study program

with the opportunity to give through his high school. All art © Drew Friedman. those artists left out the first time While he was essentially put to get exposure via Friedman’s pen to task as an errand boy, Friedman and brush. “For the first book,” he has some fond memories of being in shared, “it was the people you would the bullpen. “ was there, assume would be in it, the cream of the and John Romita was especially great,”

28 #14 • Winter 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR Left and above: Two of three Vigoda brothers worked in the funnybook business. At far left is Hy, left is Bill, and above is a photo of the most well-known of the siblings, Abe, who gained fame playing Sal Tessio in The Godfather and in his portrayal of police detective Phil Fish in the situation comedy Barney Miller. The character Drew said. “He was so nice to me: ‘Oh, you want to be an not only provided Friedman with visual reference for each was later spun off into his own artist? Help me with this panel.’ He obviously didn’t need my creator, but also gave him the opportunity to learn more show for a season. Below: help, but he was attentive… a really sweet, terrific guy. I’m about the industry’s icons and uncover some new talent he Self-portrait of Drew Friedman forever grateful.“ hadn’t been familiar with. as young comics aficionado. The artist added, “Roy [Thomas] was there too. He “When I go into a project, I want to learn along the had been at my father’s retirement party in ’66 and he took way,” admitted Friedman. “For example, I went in re- photos… I have some of them. Mario Puzo was there, and searching Will Eisner, but then I found out the guy doing the Martin and Chip Goodman. We talked about that, in ’72, lettering for Eisner [Abe Kanegson] became a folk singer, when I was in the office. was also there that and the more I learned about him, I realized I had week working in the bullpen.” to include him too. He didn’t work that long in While the spinner racks no longer held the same appeal the industry, and died young, for Friedman, he remained interested in comics, largely but the more I read, he was due to his discovery of E.C. Comics (which he confessed brilliant and I knew I had to to fanatically collect), Friedman then connected the dots include him too. What he to find that MAD actually started out as a comic book, and was doing was innovative, then later he was exposed to ZAP Comix: “R. Crumb’s work and he made the lettering completely threw a deranged monkey-wrench into my special.” -works, which I still haven’t recovered from.” among the obscure Though Friedman was frequent introduced to celebrities creators Friedman wanted and famous people through his father (many will recog- to illustrate are brothers Bill nize the elder Friedman’s name as screenwriter for the hit and Hy Vigoda, who are the filmSplash ), it was the four-color illustrators that always siblings of famed character impressed Drew the most, and often left him star-struck. actor Abe Vigoda, best known “Comic artists were the true super-stars to me. I would for his roles as Tessio in The go to the comic conventions in the ’70s, in New Godfather and Detective Fish York City, and I would keep my distance when I saw Harvey on the TV sitcom Barney Miller. Kurtzman or Wally Wood or Will Eisner. I was just too intim- “Some people know that Bill idated. I could approach the publishers and writers… [but] Vigoda worked at Archie for the artists were, like, whoa, I couldn’t fathom it. They were years,” Friedman revealed, the true rock stars. Even the younger guys like Barry Smith “but most don’t know the third — he would have groupies around him. And Vaughn Bodé, brother, Hy, who wrote for he would come in with entourages.” comics for decades. In fact, Later, when Friedman attended the School of Visual Bill was frequently seen as Arts, in New York, his instructors would include Kurtzman the ‘success’ of the family and Eisner, which of course is somewhat ironic given his before The Godfather came hero worship of the two men. Later, the artist would come out and made Abe famous (or full circle, doing work for National Lampoon, R. Crumb’s infamous).” Weirdo magazine, and ultimately becoming one of the Idiots Finding reference material at MAD. on the Vigoda brothers was As with the first volume, an extensive amount of neigh impossible, especially

All art © Drew Friedman. research was put into More Heroes of the Comics, which for Hy, but Friedman made a

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14 29 Batman, Swamp Thing TM & © DC Comics.

from a 1929 essay by M.R. James, from a 1929 essay by ghost story writer of yore. It’s almost as if James were describing a vam- It’s almost as if James were describing Montague Rhodes James is considered the Montague Rhodes James is considered — grave. pire Batman story from his Eton township a modicum of blood, shed with deliberation...” a modicum of blood, finest writer of ghost stories by everybody from finest writer of ghost stories by everybody drawn distant screams’ are all in place, and so is drawn distant screams’ married : H.P. to Stephen King. He is also Kelley H.P. Lovecraft to Stephen King. He is malice,’ pursing forms in darkness, and ‘long- malice,’ pursing forms #14 • WINTER 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR Jones’ favorite writer of horror. I won’t indulge in Jones’ favorite writer of horror. I won’t the glare of evil faces, ‘the stony grin of unearthly the glare of evil faces, Don’t let us be mild or drab. Malevolence and terror, “Don’t let us be mild a scholarly essay of comparing and contrasting the M.R. a scholarly essay of comparing and contrasting Jamesian influence on Mr. Jones, but just know that Kelley is a great Jamesian influence on Mr. Jones, but just student of horror literature. While Kelley’s talents are mostly in the visual student of horror literature. While Kelley’s arts, and he has steeped himself in the work a diverse group that includes arts, and he has steeped himself in the what can be learned from the great masters of horror stories, and the way to of horror stories, and the way to what can be learned from the great masters the words on the page with create dread and fever dreams by combining Hammer horror movies, Kelley knows the primacy of pure imagination, on Hammer horror movies, Kelley knows the reader’s conjuring mind. It’s the book-is-always-better-than-the-movie the reader’s conjuring mind. It’s the book-is-always-better-than-the-movie medieval and Renaissance painters and pop culture artists like Kirby, Wright- medieval and Renaissance painters and And besides M.R. James being a horror phenomenon. son, and Frazetta; countless hours watching and dissecting Universal and and dissecting Universal and son, and Frazetta; countless hours watching writer, he was also a preeminent medieval Transcription by Steven Thompson & Peter Quinones & Peter Thompson by Steven Transcription scholar. He translated a number of apocryphal tales (stories that didn’t make it into the mainstream Bible), and Kelley shares this love for the whispered, clearly meant-to-be- forgotten tales from the spectral side of human nature. The skeletal Deadman and the Elseworlds Vampire But while James led a cloistered, scholarly, bachelorhood of Batman stories are examples that work outside the established super-hero canon and are yet connected. a life, Kelley leads a normal existence in the suburbs and with two teen-aged boys. He loved being his sons’ Little League coach (Kelley is a big baseball fan), going on family trips to the coast, Interview Conducted by Peter Quinones Interview Conducted by Peter 32 A career-spanning chat with the renowned artist about movies, music, weird fiction… and, oh yes, comics! and supporting his wife in her career. And if you ever spend any amount of time with him during a rare convention appearance or signing, you will be delighted with his quick wit and humor. Don’t let his penchant for dark tales fool you: Kelley is one of those naturally gifted humorists. He is flat-out funny, and is able to laugh at himself. When you meet him, ask him to tell you the “Elton John ” story. It will embarrass him and amuse you. One of the things I had been missing over the years, as paths started to diverge — the marriages, the mortgages, the careers, priorities being shifted — was the camaraderie of our comic book group. Besides an occasional meeting at a local Sacramento convention, or a signing at a comic shop, I hadn’t really spent much time talking with Kelley in the last 20 years. Before that though, there was a group of wanna-be artists who would meet at the Comics & Comix in the Birdcage Walk Mall and become tight friends. The shared love of comics, movies, science fiction, and fantasy created an instant bond for that small band of geeks that aspired to work in the field of comics. Kelley was first among the crew, in the mid-’80s, to break into the professional ranks when he got an inking gig on Marvel’s Micronauts. We were all envious, but not surprised. When we gathered at Kelley’s house back then (and every house he’s moved to since), our friend was always perched at his drawing board. I never saw him sit at a couch or a kitchen table. He always had a pencil or brush in hand, and there was always a drawing in progress as we visited and talked about or Christopher Lee or or Howard Phillips Lovecraft.

Previous page: Kelley Jones, expressing solidarity with Charlie Hebdo, Jan. 2015. Details from Batman

Deadman, Batman Unseen TM & © DC Comics. #515 and Swamp Thing #1. This page: Details from Batman Unseen and Deadman: Love After Death.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14 33 We were working on our stuff, too, but Kelley seemed to have on the Swamp Thing mini-series, and then a wrap-up session more confidence in his skills. He had a knack for drawing, and a in this past January. Eight-plus hours of interview and several single-mindedness and sureness about his craft. He started show- hours more of just shooting the breeze. . . ing his stuff to editors and other professionals, and the feedback I didn’t get to cover all of the books and characters that Kelley was becoming more praise than pointers. had worked on, since those pages stretch into the thousands by And somehow, that helped us elevate our skills. All of us even- now. There was a span of years I had stopped reading and collect- tually broke into comics or video games. I was the only ing comics, except for occasional storylines. writer in the group, and I would give them my chap- So I missed some of Kelley’s work, because ters-in-progress. Jim Sinclair, Kelley’s best friend, he never stopped creating. And I’ll be honest, had a long run as the primary inker/finisher as a fan of version of Deadman, on ’s . Glenn Johnson I did not like Kelley’s rendition, so I didn’t took one of my chapters about a royal artist pick it up back then. But preparing for this and presented me with four beautiful- interview, and going back to reading the ly drawn pages and became my first books, including all the Deadman, I see published comic (Against Blackshard the genius in Kelley’s artistic , how 3-D). I saw those pages at Kelley’s its atmosphere fits perfectly the tone of house, which was the , the dry the story. There’s a concept in art called pub gathering place of the group. the Shock of the New when you see My first article sales were interviews something that you’ve always taken with Kelley for Comics Scene, Comics for granted, such as the traditional Interview, and (remem- nude figure in painting, and then it ber those? If you do, you are showing your becomes something else in the cubist gray-haired age.) And Kelley, Jim, and I were brush of Picasso (Les Demoiselles d’Avi- co-creators of TerraFormers (Wonder Color gnon, 1907): planes, angles and distortions. It’s Comics, 1986), a big robot sci-fi comic where shocking. It’s new... like Kelley’s decayed we spent hours spit-balling ideas, and where I Deadman or Batman’s exaggerated ears watched in amazement as Kelley penciled awesome and expressionistic cape. pages, and then again when Jim applied his gorgeous But Kelley will tell you it’s no big deal, inks. And these lead to other connections and friend- that I’m reading too much into his stuff. ships with artists in the area, such as . If he’s going to sit there all day, he wants to Oh, it was an exciting and splendid time. enjoy himself, to have fun. So maybe now you can imagine my excitement and joy So read the interview and find out what is fun, in interviewing Kelley once again, three decades later. We got monstrous fun, to one of the premier horror artists of the day. together in October and November of 2015, as he was working -- Peter Quinones

Peter Quinones: Let’s start with some told him to take them home. He wasn’t background. Where are you from, Kelley? really into comics, though, so he threw the Kelley Jones: I was born in Sacra- box into my room and I fell in love at that and have lived my whole life in Cal- moment. ifornia’s capitol. I’ve never had the desire Peter: Is this when you first picked up a to leave Sacramento. Pretty boring. I’ve pencil? traveled a lot, but that only made me like Kelley: No. I was always drawing some- it here more. I really began to appreciate thing. Even when I was really, really little, the area. It’s not like I’ll never leave; it’s they said I was always drawing, so I don’t just that traveling gives you something to really know how old I was. The things I compare, and you realize it isn’t bad here. remember drawing were telephone poles We’re close enough to everything and yet (who knows why) and then dinosaurs and far enough from everything. It’s a good Frankenstein all the time. place to grow up. Peter: Dinosaurs seems to be a common Peter: Were you an only child? theme with comic book artists. Kelley: No, I have an older brother and Kelley: I guess. For me, it’s probably be- he’s probably the one who got me into cause my dad took to me to go see those comics, because he had a class in junior kinds of movies as a kid. He liked those Batman TM & © DC Comics. high, and if you were done with your work, movies, so I saw , the teacher would let you read what you want. And, in this class, they had like Valley of the Gwangi, When Dinosaurs Ruled the Earth, One Million an old box of mostly old Marvel comics, old back then so major collector’s Years B.C. items now. For whatever reason, they didn’t want them anymore, and they Peter: With Raquel Welch…

Top inset: Kelley Jones Batman illustration. Above inset: Fifteen-year-old burgeoning artist Kelley Jones at his brand-new drawing table in a photo from 1977.

34 #14 • Winter 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR But then he quit, walked away, and that’s why people don’t remember him probably. And that seems a shame. Peter: Seems there’s a resurgence of interest in Wally Wood. Kelley: Yeah, because they put out that great artist edition of his stuff. For many years, I would say Wally Wood is a huge influence. And people would say, “Wally who?” That is distressing. I don’t have a favorite Wood period because he was always good. But he was working with Jack Davis, Frazetta, Williamson, Torres, Kamen, and he was the best one. And they were saying, “That guy’s the best one.” When the others were taking two months to do their things, Wood was bringing them in every few weeks. I still look at his stuff and wonder at what he did. He was great at putting a lot in, when he would finish a page, then go back and add more. But he also took out a lot. He was a master of light. He knew what didn’t need to be there. He textured things. Right now, comics are all shiny to me, but Wood could do trees, he could do water, any texture. We overuse the word “genius,” but he was a genius. Peter: Thoughts on John Buscema? Kelley: If there was a guy whose talent I could acquire, it would be his, because he could draw anything, at any time. I had the good fortune to spend a day with him, and he could just draw, flat-out draw. He didn’t need his… what is it in fantasy books who are adept? You know, a box of stuff that an amateur magician needs to his thing. Well, John was a master, he could move his hands and perform miracles. If you see his work with as his inker, it is unbelievable. They would do these little horror stories, hark- ing back to the old 1950s’ stuff. Nobody saw those stories then, but I did!. I was buying these reprint books, looking for that one little story by them. Don Heck was underrated, majorly underrated. He was terribly savaged, for whatever reasons. In fact, I just wrote an intro for a book on Don Heck’s horror work in the ’50s. I’m amazed to see how nasty the comments could be, for no reason, just to be sadistic. For certainly, if we’re going to take artists to task, there’s a long list before you get to Heck. Peter: He’s all over early Marvel. Kelley: Right, and clearly there was Kirby and Ditko, but there was also Heck, inventor of , , Black Widow… He held “Thor” together with Kirby in those early years. Some of the classic “Thor” stories are drawn by Heck. And he invented characters for that, too. Stan Lee went to him and said, “You have to come over and work with us.” And he did. There’s so much really great work he did that stands the test of time. His “Iron Man,” especially Kelley: It isn’t what it is now, but for us This in , is remarkable. who do it, we knew who everyone was. page: Peter: Storytelling-wise? I’ve never believed in eating our own. It’s For editor Kelley: Everything. He was a terrific pen- a hard job. First you have to think, spend Barbara ciler, a great storyteller, good at hitting all all day realizing something and not repeat Kessel, the beats. A fabulous, all-around finished yourself. And then you have to make a writer artist. If he inked his own work, it was tre- deadline that is usually unreasonable. And Mike mendous. He could do everything. If it was no one is going to read that book and say, Baron spy genre, horror, Western… he could do “I’m going to give him extra credit because and it. In those days, I know you had to, but he penciled and inked it in three-and-a-half penciler he stood out. And, later on, when he went weeks,” right? Kelley Jones (with inker to DC, well, I didn’t know he had health Peter: Right. Tony DeZuñiga) issues, all the things going on with his life. Kelley: When it’s an incredible job, they I just remember picking up Batman Family because of the produced the should acknowledge that. Old Marvel did. Old Marvel would Deadman cool stories he was doing. It was one of the reasons to get say this guy did this great job. Bang. And they would protect it. So I didn’t understand when I read things like: “Why is he serial for their artists and their writers that way. Now, the end result Action Comics working? He’s the worst artist ever.” Really? Because I can is all that matters. And it’s been bad for comics, because think of 25 artists right now that I avoid like the plague, that Weekly. Top you have guys who should know better, taking months and is Kelley’s they are telling me are great. But Heck is an artist I can still months to do a book, miss deadlines, and they aren’t ex- look at. And what a class act! He never responded, he just photocopy of his ercising that muscle on them. Look: fear is a great motivator. pencils. Inset left kept doing his thing. You don’t have to when you invent Iron Peter: And hunger. is Esteban Maroto’s Man and half of the Avengers. Kelley: And that. And out of that comes wonderful things. cover for Action #619 Peter: Of course, back then, the artists didn’t really get the These miracles come out of those desperate hours that I [Sept. 27, ’88]

Deadman, Action Comics TM & © DC Comics. credit. The fans didn’t know.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14 41 Peter: Of the Batman movies then, which one would fit closest to your vision? Kelley: Probably the first two movies that came out. Later on, they asked if I would draw and design and I knew they were using a lot of the comics. But they did that a lot. They did that with the Mr. Freeze one, which they took that design and used it. It didn’t look like anything I’d done. So I know they’re looking at a lot of guys, but when it came out, I went, “The weird cape and the long ears?” There were certain things I just went, “That’s really cool!” I don’t know if they got it from me, but we were on the same page. I loved it because with the sound off, it looked like a Batman movie. Peter: Are there any other characters that you haven’t drawn yet but would like to? Kelley: God, there are tons! I always wanted to do Superman. I always would kill to do Superman, but that ain’t never gonna happen, though I know theres a sigh of relief that hasn’t happened!… The Spectre… The De- mon… I love Doctor Fate. I love Thor (not the new one, but the classic Kirby one!), whether he’s on the streets of New York or off in the furthest galaxy fighting a cosmic menace. I love that range! There’s a lot of stuff I could do. Peter: About your Batman… Gothic, , skulls everywhere. How did that begin? Kelley: Red Rain started it. That came out of Deadman, which had gotten me noticed. Well, around that time, [editor] had me do a fill-in cover for Detective Comics. Then I went on to do Sandman. Malcolm Jones was inking me on that and he was working with Doug Above: As described The MLJ Kelley: It did. Comic book art is reduced Moench on another book. And he said, Companion, in the late ’80s, so small. I like the eyeball perspective. “Doug would like to know if you’d do a Bat- developed a I like the organic-ness of it. I like that man story with him.” And Doug, was, well… mature comics line called there’s drawing going on. I like to physi- Doug. So that was a huge moment for me, Spectrum, with writer Len cally draw my stuff just a little bit out and where someone who had read and followed Wein and artist Kelley Jones follow perspective. I can eyeball it pretty my work… well, you disassociate yourself producing The . Due to good. When it’s that small, it’s foreshortening. from that moment, because I’m not really part bad publicity, the entire line was I figured it had to be small enough in case you of that club. Even though I knew what I was scrapped and artwork shelved. had to get it around cars. I mean, I’m thinking starting to build, I was not part of that club. like that and I went and found old shots of And, as good as Mike Baron was, he was my

guys like Barney Oldfield in their Formula generation. Doug Moench, to me, was from The Hangman TM & © Archie Comic Publications, Inc. Ones from a long time ago and I thought that that period where you are a fan, you’re col- would be cool. Whether it’s cool or not is lecting, you are starting to know names, so debatable, but I loved doing it and I always it was very intimidating. Of course, I had figured Batman was a guy who maybe two to say yes and Malcolm gave Doug my wheels touch the ground when he’s driving, phone number. And he called, and said, “I y’know? There’s a lot of impracticality with have this idea, I like what you are doing. a car where you have to get out of it and I enjoyed Deadman. Would you have an go do something. Someone may steal it, interest in this Batman story I’ve been stuff like that. So I made it as wonky as I thinking about?” I said, “Absolutely!” could so if they stole it, it would be really Peter: That’s what you say when Mr. obvious. I don’t know. It’s just silly stuff. Doug “Master of Fu” Moench is

46 #14 • Winter 2017 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR man, you know? In my head, I thought, “I have got to get the what the copyrights are on these assignment!” So, when Bloodstorm came to an end, that’s things.” I said, “Well, all of ’em have when Denny O’Neil asked me, “Would you want to do the been dead for 700 years!” Right? regular series?” And that took over for the next three years. They’re woodcuts and prints. So Peter: Staying with the vampire Batman, different I had to show them where I was on the third one, Crimson ? getting that material. So they were Kelley: Well, Les had switched from how he colored afraid that it was somebody else’s books to a pretty different style. Also, he had gotten some art and I said, “No. It’s Albrecht job offers to work for a video game company and he was Dürer or some unknown guy from teaching painting. He’s a painter. The good thing was, the 13th century in outer Germany.” working with him, I never gave him color notes, other than So, once I showed ’em what that “night” or “day,” if it wasn’t clear. He did his thing and I was, they said, “Yeah, you can gave him as much leeway as I did with John on the inks. do that.” It became so much of “Do what it takes.” I think he had told me once breaking in a nightmare that I wouldn’t do it to comics he got used to getting a lot of leeway. But he had again. these other opportunities and he moved on. Peter: [Laughs] It adds a cer- Peter: Crimson Mist doesn’t seem as moody. The colors tain flavor to it. Especially since are… this particular issue is a little too Kelley: Well, it’s a different colorist. And you have to clean! realize, they also switched techniques of printing. They Kelley: Well, there you have it. went from newsprint four-color to the new computer laser This new style of printing. Every- stuff on slick paper, which was a shock for a lot of people. one was trying to overcompen- When I first saw it, it was in the regular pages of Batman so sate for this new style — this I went from the newsprint Batman to this slick stuff. It threw Baxter printing or whatever a lot of people because it simplified things immediately. You you would call it — of printing. couldn’t watercolor anymore. They didn’t blue line, so there You didn’t know what you were are fundamental changes in how you do it. If you look at going to get. And they were coloring at that time, a lot of books are very monochromatic, going from plate printing to just homogenized-looking coloring. Gregory Wright actually digital printing so you really put in a lot of different colors. And that was the direction I didn’t know unless somebody said to go; back-lighting, two-tone coloring, a lot of stuff like was there looking at it. You that — stuff like you’d see in Hammer films. I still give that didn’t know what you were going to get. We advice to any colorist I work with, to this day! Keep it bright were afraid of everything closing up. That’s what was going This page: Before being re- and simple, and black is a color. How many colors do they on. So you had to build in for potential production problems cruited as the monthly artist on have now? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? I always until it was all worked out. Because if you look at the early Batman, Kelley Jones was the go, “Y’know, how about eight colors?” Very simple. ones, those weren’t the issue. The plate printing and col- cover artist during the “Knight- Peter: In Crimson Mist, you have all these marginal orists per book. I mean, everything’s working the way you fall” era of the early 1990s, illustrations. know. Later on, though, I was looking at books and having and he produced the iconic Kelley: Oh, the little graphics? I saw it as infection and in other artists call me just freaking out! They would say I “broken bat” image (below) of the medieval sense Gotham was becoming this… It was had nothing to complain about, but I was able to see what Bane fracturing the back of the weird place before and it’s really weird now. Essentially, it’s their problems were and try to avoid them. My style would Darknight Detective (Batman been reduced to this medieval town with a plague. There lend itself more to adapting to that as opposed to someone #497, late July ’93). Above is his was a big to-do on that because I had gotten these all from who’s very… less lighting, less rendering, that kind of stuff. Detective Comics #651 [early these old books with prints and whatnot, and at first DC I could get… well, if it’s gonna get that Oct. ’92] cover. said, “You can’t reproduce these because we don’t know way, I’ll darken it up! If it’ll get that way, Batman, Bane TM & © DC Comics.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14 53 who is perceived as this playboy ne’er-do-well. There are the many different personalities that make the one person. Doug was a big anti-drug guy, so his view was the MKUltra view of it, right? He wasn’t like, “Drugs are evil, kids.” He wasn’t that. This was to warn about the danger of what you could unleash. Peter: Did you and Doug co-plot on these books? Kelley: We would talk about all of them on the phone. Clearly they were Doug’s stories, but he’d say, “Who do you want to draw? Who do you want to do? What do you think?” He was going to use , so I said I had always wanted to do Swamp Thing. That worked together, right? I always wanted to do The Scarecrow. I loved The Scarecrow. I loved that he was a psychiatrist, you know? You could do a lot with that! So we’d go from there. But a lot of it was just talking on the phone, mostly to discuss moments—if this incident should happen or this complica- tion should happen or this scene should happen. And then you weave them together, you know, and that’s what he would do. You discuss it, but he would still always throw me a surprise! Peter: So, out of all the Batman villains, which is the one that Batman should be most scared of? Is it The ? Kelley: he’s not afraid of. The Joker’s prob- ably the least fearsome to him. I would say, to me, it had always been potentially The Scarecrow because he was a psychiatrist and he had that fear gas. You yourself would be your own antagonist, but I don’t really know that he’s scared of anyone. I think he is frustrated that it just keeps going on. I mean, if I were Batman, I’d be like Tony Soprano, and my enemies would be disappearing. But he doesn’t do that, so… The things that make Batman work for me are so multi-faceted. The city is a character to me. The city will be whatever I want it to be at that time, so it can look like or it can look like Prague. It depends. And that’s to get across different districts in this very old city. That part I really like. Nice little pieces. It’s just that I love the comic book nature of a comic, which I don’t know why we get away from. But you know what? I got so much reaction to those things, that I found that if I wasn’t doing it, I would get a lot of mail, “You’re not doing that!” Peter: Your Mr. Freeze design [#525]. His jaw is basically always… Kelley: He’s just basically always up-lit and whatever’s in there. But it’s creepy to me, and I think freez- ing people is creepy to me! Peter: Yeah, because they shatter into little pieces. Kelley: Yeah, they shatter! It seems to me he’s almost alien I had done a lot for them! And I This page: As mentioned, Kelley because he can’t live in our atmo- wasn’t goin’ in there sayin’, “Aw, Jones was a regular cover art- sphere, or can’t live in our tempera- man, I really wanted to do it.” ist on the Batman family of titles ture, I should say. But they disliked So anyway, I said, “Okay, no Mr. during the early 1990s, receiving the character of Mr. Freeze quite Freeze.” I didn’t know how they the assignment from editor a bit in the office in those days, felt about him. I really wanted to Dennis O’Neil, who saw in the so to use him… Initially, it came do it. So Denny said, “How about young talent the makings of a up when Doug said, “Who do you one issue? I’ll let you do it for one legendary Batman artist. Above wanna do?” I said, “Mr. Freeze.” issue, and that’s it. You don’t get to is the original art for Detective Just that idea of him freezing cold ask for the character anymore and I Comics #663 [early July 1993] does something to me. What I didn’t don’t want to have to deal with this and inset is the printed version. know, because I was a latecomer anymore, all right?” I said, “Look. I to all this… was that Denny O’Neil’s appreciate it.” He then called Doug been there since 1968 and he just and Doug said fine. had this aversion to the character. And I love the idea of doing No one does a Mr. Freeze story anymore because of the TV one-and-dones anyway. Single issues which are not con- show or whatever. nected to anything, I think, are good for readers. It’s good I didn’t know any of this. So Doug had wanted to do a for creators. It’s just good. Short stories you really have to three-parter or a two-parter (I forget) and the book now hone it and get your point across. Luckily, I got to do some was doing very well on its own. We weren’t connected to of those. So he wrote the Freeze issue and it was a big, big

Batman, Detective Comics TM & © DC Comics. anything. Sales had gone up and it was doing good and

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2017 • #14 57 when you don’t feel like it and it will quit being a thing of moods.” Now, I didn’t say anything like, “I work in moods,” or anything like that, but he made sense to me. It made a lot of sense. He said, “You’re going to find a lot of guys can’t do it. There’ll be the guys who are really good but they can’t produce.” And he says, “And, in the publishing world, who needs ’em?” Peter: Right. Kelley: He says they would be useless. On the other hand, if you just blast it out and it doesn’t do anything, that’s also useless. But there’s this middle ground. The only way he knew to do it was this kind of crucible you had to go through. And that stuck with me when Denny O’Neil called and asked, “Would you like to do Batman?” Of course, I’m used to doing a graphic novel or a mini-series. That’s easy! Right? What Doug Wildey said kind of took the wind out of my sails and it changed how I looked at other artists, you know? Now, I’ve always admired Kirby, Wood, and Ditko. I always admired them. I still do! They’re still my favorites, but I never thought of them in that context. It forces you to rely on your imagination. So, when that offer came from Denny, I took it. I know Doug Moench was not happy about that decision. A number of people were not happy about that decision, because they wanted me to keep doing these special projects and stuff. At that time, it was a big deal to do a prestige mini-series or a hardcover one-shot. At that point though, when it was all said and done, I surpassed something like 36 issues in 36 months. And it was the best thing I ever did. It was boot camp for horror. Being in some kind of service. There were times when I couldn’t tell if I liked what I was doing or not. Peter: Were these full-script? Kelley: Some parts would be and some parts would be paragraphs. It would depend on what mood Doug was in or what point he was trying to make. He was always very visual but left it up to me what I wanted to do, so it was a great working relationship. So I just hit it and came out of that with 36 issues in 36 months. Barring DC and Diamond moving stuff around the schedule, we were always work- ing about three or four months ahead. That was due partly to Doug Wildey and partly to Marvel in the old days. When I first came to Marvel, they had a great teaching tool: draw a page a day. Even if you can’t finish it, draw as much as you can, go on to the next, and by the end of the week, you’ve got five pages. WhenIF Y OyouU EdoN JaO page,YED pickTHI Sone PR EVIEW, panel and make it really great. CGetLIC theK TothersHE L Idone.NK T IfO youOR DER THIS can do that for an entire story,ISS you’llUE IN have PRI 22NT great OR Dpanels!IGITA L FORMAT! When you hear that…! At first you say, “Well, one panel per page. That’s good! That sounds easy!” But think of a comic book and doing a Above: Kelley Jones wrote and monthly. You’re lucky if you get three or four panels, really. Peter: Any particular challenges in that book? Kelley: Making the deadline. Because, the scenes with drew the World: Eat And I knew there are great artists so I would think that Your Heart Out one-shot, in ’98. those things affected me — what Marvel had said and magic in them, I wanted them set up for a different look. Wildey about ten years later saying what he said, and then Unfortunately, that took a long time to execute. And each the imagination thing. I always had an idea where I knew I issue was 30 or 40 pages. It was a lot of work per issue. So couldn’t draw as well as Frank Frazetta or Jack Kirby or any it was a tight deadline, but it came out good because the of those guys, but what I could do is come up with an idea story was so interesting to me. that would be uniquely mine. Such as on Deadman, making Peter: Is there anything you won’t draw? Like an Archie him a skeleton. Because that was great cheek. He was story, or… interesting then all the time. [laughs] Kelley: I did an Archie cover, with Predator on it. I love Peter: Your -related material, Thoth-amon… how style. I can do that really easily. I did a pin-up once for Batman Adventures and it was one of my favorite did that happen? COMIC BOOK CREATOR #14 Kelley: and LenCo mWeinprehen swereive KEL LworkingEY JONES in onterv iew, from earlythings years as I ever did. Of course, done how I see it. I’m a fanat- something, and I was finishingMar vupel in ake Stever to prese Nilesnt-day g storyreatness forat D C depictinicalg BA TChuckMAN, Jones fan. I love his stuff because it’s violent, DEADMAN, and SWAMP THING (chockful of rarely-weird,seen art - and all from that really great period of Warner Bros. I .

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