The Voice from the 10th Row Carl Weber and the Berliner Ensemble an interview by Branislav Jakovljević, Keara Harman, Michael Hunter, Jamie Lyons, Lindsey Mantoan, Ljubiša Matić, Ciara Murphy, Jens Pohlmann, Ryan Tacata, and Giulia Vittori

Carl Weber’s career spanned over six decades and two continents; he was an actor and director in post-WWII East Germany, an assistant director and actor (among other things) in Bertolt Brecht’s Berliner Ensemble, a director in Western Europe and the United States, one of the premier translators of Heiner Müller’s dramas, and an accomplished theatre pedagogue. During the 2011/2012 academic year, a group of faculty, postdoctoral fellows, and graduate students at Stanford University organized a series of interviews with Professor Weber, which received support from the Stanford Humanities Center’s Theodore and Frances Geballe Research Workshops. In these interviews we focused on Weber’s work in the Berliner Ensemble during Brecht’s final years. The participants in the workshop were: Branislav Jakovljevic´ — convener, faculty at Stanford’s department of Theater and Performance Studies (TAPS); Leslie Hill — video documentation, faculty at TAPS; Lindsey Mantoan — graduate student, TAPS; Michael

Figure 1. From left: Wolfgang Pintzka, Helene Weigel, and Carl Weber, Berliner Ensemble, 12 May 1960. (Courtesy of Bertolt Brecht Archive)

TDR: The Drama Review 62:3 (T239) Fall 2018. ©2018 New York University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology 55

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56 Carl Weber German Studies. student, TAPS; Ryan Tacata Hunter Giulia Vittori, independentartist/scholar. [email protected] Ryan Tacata, Lecturer, Immersion intheArts: Living inCulture, Stanford University. [email protected] Jens Pohlmann, Lecturer, Stanford LanguageCenter. [email protected] Ciara Murphy, Director ofStrategic Research andPlanning, The Public Theater. cmurphy@public Ljubiša Matić, Instructor, ofTheatre Department Arts, University of Dakota. [email protected] North student, TAPS; JensPohlmann Lindsey Mantoan,Professor, Assistant Theatre Arts, Linfield [email protected] Jamie Lyons, specifictheatre independentartist/scholar/site director. www.jamescharleslyons.com Michael Hunter, Senior Lecturer, College California oftheArts. [email protected] Keara Harman, PhD Candidate, German Studies, Stanford University. Branislav Jakovljević, Professor, ofTheater and Department Performance Studies, Stanford University. Erwin PiscatorinitiatedinhistheatrewithBrechtasoneofdramaturgs, andwhichBrecht For us, spendingtimewithhimwasinitselfanexercisethekindofcollaborativeworkthat interview wasacollaborativeeffortbetween Weber andagroupofhiscolleaguesstudents. joined theteaminfinaleditingofinterviewsforpublication. Intheend, thisextensive view aboutTheCaucasianChalkCircle, forwhichLjubišaMatic Professor Weber movedtoanassistedlivingfacility. We managedtoarrangeafollow-upinter helped uswiththetranscriptionofinterviews. Soonafterweconductedtheinterviews, cial resourcesforgatheringdocumentsnecessarytheworkshop, andStanford Art Institute of highqualityvideofootage. The Geballegrantprovidedadministrativesupportandfinan- strate rehearsalproceduresthathecarriedwithhimfromtheBerlinerEnsemble. Murphy stagedascenefromtheplaywithstudentactors, which Weber thenrevisedtodemon- In theirinterviewaboutTrumpets, andDrums inadditiontoarchivaldocuments, Hunterand views: playsandwrittenaccounts, stillimages, slideprojections, andfilmmusicrecordings. Murphy onTrumpets. andDrums We usedarangeofdocumentsandtechniquesintheinter Katzgraben, JensPohlmannonTheDay oftheGreat Scholar Wu, andMichaelHunterCiara Mother Courage, LindseyMantoanaboutFear ofthe andMisery Third Reich, KearaHarmanabout view aboutCaucasianChalkCircle, Giulia Vittori andRyan Tacata leadtheconversationabout session andparticipatedintheinterviewprocess. BranislavJakovljevic members oftheworkshopwereinchargeeachplayweinvestigated, allwerepresentforeach Katzgraben; andCarl Weber andPeterPalitzch’sTheDay oftheGreat Scholar Wu.select While ,and Drums whichhewroteincollaborationwithElizabethHauptmann; Werner Hecht’s own 1. theater.org (2015), Fuegi (1987, 1994), Hayman (1983), and Willett ([1959] 1977). references, as well as online sources, such as Wikipedia. for this research importance Of particular were Barnett The information was taken from numerous sources, including many oftions thosefor interviews. listed in the worked on this material, we are unable to backtrack and retrieve all of the materials we consulted in prepara - in the footnotes. Not all of the notes have citations, and due to the time that has passed since the participants All positions listed here were (2011–12). current at the time of the interviews [email protected] All interviewsessionswererecordedonvideo. Intheend, weproducedsome12 hours In theworkshop, werevisitedthefollowingBerlinerEnsembleproductions:Brecht’s Caucasian ChalkCircle, There information were and the supplementary numerous collaborators on this project, both for the interview — postdoc, IntroductiontotheHumanitiesProgram;CiaraMurphy 1

Mother Courage, Fear ofthe andMisery Third Reich, andTrumpets — graduate student, TAPS; andKearaHarman — graduate student, GermanStudies;Giulia Vittori ´ joinedJakovljevic ´ conductedtheinter — — graduate student, graduate ´ . JamieLyons — graduate

- - - Carl Weber 57

2 Berlin, Berlin, seeing this — — , you know, and so on. and so on. you know, Gun, Your Annie Get aside from the artistic qualities of the wanted gray for everything. It is very odd wanted gray for everything. very rudimentary scenery, and costumes, and costumes, very rudimentary scenery, — — — — not a landscape, of course, only an empty stage. only an empty stage. course, of not a landscape, — could you afford rehearsal periods that long. In most provincial cit- could you afford rehearsal periods that long. — had opened in Berlin on January 11th, 1949. had opened in Berlin on January 11th, Mother Courage an incredible impression. And it’s hard to repeat, obviously. to repeat, And it’s hard an incredible impression. —

Helene Weigel (1900–1971) was an Austrian actress and stage director. With her husband, Bertolt Brecht, she she Bertolthusband, her Brecht, With director. stage and actress Austrian an was (1900–1971) Weigel Helene 1949. in Berlin East in Ensemble the Berliner established 2. as Mother Courage; and secondly, when you arrived at Friedrichstraße station in Berlin and when you arrived at Friedrichstraße and secondly, as Mother Courage; street That you walked through ruins. Theater, to the Deutsches Albrechtstraße walked up the There was actually that was livable. There was maybe one single house was totally bombed out. and then you arrived at the So you walked through a landscape of ruins a bar in that building. So you stood in front destroyed during the war. which was miraculously not Theater, Deutsches really. was a strange experience, totally unharmed theatre building and that of this brightly lit, and saw a landscape Then you walked in a few pieces of scenery props, all the Everything, Brecht: when someone asked him, There’s this joke about or less gray. all of these were more strangely enough, Which is, gray. as long as they are all colors, he said, what colors do you like, Beckett as well preferred gray shared by Beckett. the same decade of the 20th century as major the- that these two guys who really emerged from that imme- Onstage you saw something onstage. atre people had the same preference for gray And these contrasts just seen outside. diately reminded you of the ruins you had and then when the stage opened you saw again war, walking into the house, brightly lit theatre, And that made behavior. war-like scenery, war-like ­production TACATA: RYAN four to five weeks At that time, Which means it went into rehearsal in December. WEBER: only in theatres in major cities In fact, rehearsal was standard in German theatre. or Hamburg Munich, GIULIA VITTORI: Were there any scenes that you recall that particularly touched you? there any scenes that you recall that particularly touched Were VITTORI: GIULIA boys pulling The opening was stunning: Mother Courage on the wagon with her two WEBER: So they was the opening moment on the revolving stage. That the wagon and singing the song. on the spot because the stage revolve was turning. marched downstage and then could march plays up to but none of Brecht’s other theatre scene, might say as well that this is a musical You And that was another stunning thing opening. that point had used this kind of musical theatre By the time American musical theatre. about if anything, because in Germany we knew little, He Brecht had seen a lot of musical theatre on Broadway. in Berlin, he staged Mother Courage He the productions and the acting were marvelous. thought the scripts were terrible but that and all of his peers were York, Courage in New always wanted Ethel Merman to play Mother musical star totally baffled because she was a major ies, plays were rehearsed two to three weeks. Later when the Berliner Ensemble sold out every plays were rehearsed two to three weeks. ies, So by the time of Chalk easily. without a new play, we could have survived two years night, rehearsal period of all of his productions at the which had the longest Circle [7 October 1954], we rehearsed for eight months. Ensemble, you thinking? what were When you arrived at the Berliner Ensemble, TACATA:

Mother Courage Mother still, which is , and I saw Mother Courage in the Spring of ’49 I came to Berlin WEBER: CARL vividly remember the impact it I still theatre event of my life. the most impressive for me, Weigel production itself with Helene the were many reasons: first of all, There made on me. continued in the Berliner Ensemble with his team of assistants, one of whom was Carl Weber. Weber. whom was Carl one of assistants, with his team of in the Berliner Ensemble continued legacy. to witness this important were honored We Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

58 Carl Weber adaptation ofGorky’sMother. never seenasmuchofanimpactonaudiencewhereverIwasintheworld. ExceptinBrecht’s shot whilebeatingthedrumtowarnvillageofanattack]. Itisahighlyemotionalscene. I’ve of courseisbullshit. LookatthedrumsceneinMotherCourage [Courage’sdaughterKattrinis WEBER: There’s alwaysamyththatBrechtdidn’twantemotionsinhisperformances, which war anddestruction. JAKOVLJEVIC: ButthentheGermanaudiencehadfreshintheirmemorieshistoryof mances inBerlin. attitude towardstheEnsemble. Soprobablytheapplausewasmuchstrongerthanatperfor to someextent, andwhowaspreparedforwhattheyweregoingtoseehadaverypositive at afestival, oraspecialevent, aparticularaudiencewasthere, whowasinonthewholething WEBER: Basicallynot. ExceptmaybethatinParisandLondonwhereMotherCourage played Paris, andLondon? BRANISLAV We tookit alloverEuropeactuallyandwealwaysgotanincrediblereception. as longIwaswiththecompany. As wellasinforeigncountries, inParis, whereverwetookit. at thattime. The performancealwaysgotenormousapplauseattheend. All thewaythrough, of EastBerlin, offeredBrechtthemoneyforcompany, sohestartedtheBerlinerEnsemble ple ofmonthsafteritopened. Basedonthatproductionthecitycouncil, thecitygovernment impact oneveryoneatthetime. The productionwasveryfamousalreadywhenIsawitacou- which wasincrediblyactedandwellstaged, thememoryofwarhadanenormous WEBER: Havingbeenthroughthewar, asidefromtheaestheticqualityofproduction 3. tastic forthissong. as Pavelaregoingtoshoothim. That’s whatthepoemisaboutandHannsEisler’smusicfan- who weregoingtoshoothimhisownkind. Soldierswhowereactuallyofthesameclass rus offiveactors, andtheyweresingingasongthatsaid:Pavelcouldunderstand, becausethose there lookingattheletter. Ontheotherside, stageright, wasErnstBusch withasmallcho- in awaythatshewassittingonstageleftthecotlittlehutshe’slivingin, justsitting receives theletterwhichtellsherthatsonPavel Wlassow hasbeenshot. That wasstaged probably myidealatthetimeasawriterwasHemingway. and allthethingsyoucouldn’treadinNaziGermany. You couldn’tgetthem, youknow. Yes, so WEBER: Especially American literature. IreallylovedHemingway inthosedays, DosPassos interested in? TACATA: What wereyoureadingaroundthistime, whatkindofliteratureyouwere moment ofTheMother. moves audiencesverymuch. I’veneverseenanaudience somuchintearsasthisparticular constructed fromdifferentelements. Very farcryfromnaturalistictheatre, whichpeopleassume music andthewayBuschwassingingsongwhichahighlycomplexmoment, ofcourse, image assistant director, andwithoutfailthewholetheatrewasintears. Itwasacombinationofthe 4. a life-long artistic collaboration and friendship with Brecht.a life-long artistic several of Brecht’s plays, including studied with Arnold Schoenberg and his aesthetic was influenced by cabaret and jazz. Eisler composed music for Hanns Eisler (1898–1962) was an Austrian Marxist composer for plays, films, hymns, and documentaries. He of his plays in Germanyall performances in 1933. Burri with music by Hanns Eisler. This was the last of Brecht’s works to reach production before Hitler banned The Mother was first produced at Theater-am-Schiffbauerdamm in Berlin on 17 1932, directed January by Emil — not theacting, nottheactorsprojectingpainorwhatever JAKOVLJEVIC: Were theredifferencesinreactionsfromaudiencesBerlin, 4 ForawhileIhadtowatcheveryperformancebecausewasresponsibleas 3 There isthisfamousmomentintheGorkywhenmother The Decision, The Mother, and Schweik in the Second World War . He maintained — it wastheimageand - Carl Weber 59 - including the theatre 5 but there was a company called Heidelberg but there was a company — We had no salaries. Every night we divided the box Every night we divided had no salaries. We 6 Maria Hofen, a lady in her 50s or 60s. I paid her a a lady in her 50s or 60s. Maria Hofen, —

The Western Allies introduced FRG’s deutsche mark on 21 June 1948 (the “currency reform”). In response to the the to response In reform”). “currency (the 1948 June 21 on mark deutsche FRG’s introduced Allies Western The June (22–28 occupation of zones eastern the in place took reform currency similar a Germany, West in moves convertible worthlesswas and (LewisGDR the outside freely and never was mark German East the but 1948), the and decreased theatres German in attendance reforms, currency of result a As 2016:168–69). Zitzlsperger 1976:90). (Daiber 1949/50 in 104 to the 1947/48 season during 419 from dropped venues theatre of number (n.d.). Zimmertheater See 5. 6. I was with in Franconia. I went back to Heidelberg and started a small company. We rehearsed We I went back to Heidelberg and started a small company. I was with in Franconia. This kind which means living room theatre. in houses so the theatre was called Zimmertheater, that the managed to survive and I am told We of theatre became very popular in Germany. Zimmertheater is still there in Heidelberg. office. In 1949 I went to Berlin because I knew that in Berlin a lot of theatre was going on. I going on. In 1949 I went to Berlin because I knew that in Berlin a lot of theatre was office. me to start in Theater close to Berlin hired Potsdam auditioned for several people and then the I called the the- [...] So I went back to Heidelberg and then came back to Berlin. January 1950. the phone Someone on Berlin ready to start my job. atre to tell the director that I was now in here anymore.” “because he isn’t (Dreyfus was his name), can’t talk to Dreyfus” “You said, can talk to the director of the orchestra because he is You “He is in prison. is he?” “Well where I talked to the guy who ran of a new artistic director.” running the theatre at the moment in lieu financial director absconded Dreyfus is in prison because our Mr. “Yes, the orchestra who said, trial for lack of over Dreyfus was put on Germany with the whole budget for a year. West to at the There was an actress in Berlin who had been in Heidelberg I was without a job. sight.” Kammerspiele where we acted together know there is a new theatre in “You and she said, Berlin West Theater in visit at the Schiller in Germany East Berlin started by a guy named [Hans] Rodenberg who was quite well-known And so Why don’t you go and audition for them?” a theatre for young audiences. before ’33, Theatre der Freundschaft, I spent two years in that theatre, They hired me. I was lucky. I did. in the meantime and I really I had seen Mother Courage Theatre of Friendship. which means

Kammerspiele, which used the same theatre, and they did straight plays. I began to work I began and they did straight plays. which used the same theatre, Kammerspiele, I did that in kind of apprentice rather and as a directing assistant. as a there as a young actor, called river, close to the Main the company in Franconia, Then in ’47 I joined 1946 and 1947. did a regular We Bayerisch-Franken. the whole area was called Franken, Theater, Frankenland Then in ’48 the currency reform happened and sud- repertoire like most German city theatres. went to the the- so they but there was very little to buy, denly people had money to buy stuff, and most theatres had to close, Then the currency reform stopped atre. having read the play? having read Did you see Mother Courage VITTORI: started Suhrkamp German. was not published in At the time it I hadn’t read it. No, WEBER: owned the company, the guy who Peter Suhrkamp, 1950s. Brecht plays in the early to publish the But they didn’t publish from before ’33. old friend of Brecht’s was an house, the publishing even than that. most of them later I would say, late ’49, plays until with the and eloquently talk about your encounter you very precisely : Carl, JAKOVLJEVIC So we get your 1989]. [Weber Camp” Theatre in a POW Repertory “A theatre in your article have this gap between your return you started making theatre and then we how history there, and then you England in 1946, returned from You arrival to Berlin. from England and your When did happened in between? What What brings you to Berlin? arrived in Berlin in 1949. Brecht? you first hear about and then after the war I then I was drafted, war I studied chemistry, WEBER: Before the called as they [Anglistics], University to German Studies and Anglistik switched at Heidelberg They Theatre in Heidelberg. at the City I began working At the same time, and philosophy. it, days shortly after the war did only operas in those Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

60 Carl Weber at oneoftheirproductions, forinstancePuntila, andwriteapieceaboutoneortwoscenes.” apply. Ididandshesaidokay. Isaid, “What shouldIdo?” andshesaid, “Why don’tyoulook Käthe Rülicke, whowasBrecht’ssecretaryatthetime, andtellherthathehadtoldmeto me knowaboutseven, eightmonthslater. Iaskedhimwhatshoulddo. Hetoldmetomeet “Right nowwedon’thaveavacancyforanassistant, butI’llletyouknow.” And indeed, helet like toworkwithBrechtasanassistant. Notasanactorbutassistant. Palitzschsaid, actor rightnow.” “Okay I’llgiveyouacontract, directingassistantwith actingobligationsand ­businesswoman; alwayswas. Then shesaid, “Well you act, don’tyou?” And Isaid, “Yes, I’man anything morethanwhatyouhavenow. Iknowyourpresent salary.” Shewasaverygood Viennese word forboy. Shesaid: “Sit downBub. I’llgiveyouacontractbutIdon’tpay that wasaroundthecorneronanotherstreet, andmet Weigel, whocalledeveryone “Bub” said, “Go overto Weigel nowtomakeacontract.” SoIwenttothemain officeofthecompany Mrs. Rülickepokedherheadoutofthedoorandsaid, “Did youtalktohim?” “Sort of.” She watch andsaid, “I’m sorryIhavetogorehearsal. Bye.” And Ithoughthedidn’tlikeit. Then said, “Well, I’vereadwhatyouwrote.” And Isaid, “Yes?” A longpause. Then helookedathis man atthetime, buthewasstrangelyshyinthosemattersandsoalongpause. And thenhe didn’t know, hadnevermetbefore. Hewasquiteawkward, strangereally. Hewasaveryfamous Germany. And therewasalongpause. Brechtwasalwaysstrangelyshywhenhemetpeople jumped upandsaid, “Here Iam.” And hesaid, “Yes, yes.” Pause. We shookhands, asyoudoin 9:15, 9:20, 9:30, 9:35, 9:40, 9:45. Iwasconvinceditwouldn’twork. Then hecameoutand I come outtotalkyou.” There wasabenchinfrontofhisoffice. SoIsat. Itwas9o’clock, rehearsal.” SoIcame byandknockedatthedoor. Shelookedoutandsaid, “Yes, sitdown. He’ll of Deutsches Theater. Shesaid, “Why don’tyoucomebynext Tuesday at9o’clockbefore built forBrechttherehearsalstagetherewhichhadsamemeasurementsasmain Schumannstraße]. Itwasactuallyaruin, aformerbarracksbombedoutduringthewar. They the samebuildingasrehearsalstage, acrossthestreetfromDeutsches Theater [on and shesaid, “Oh yes, Ithinkhereadit.” Sheinvitedmetocomehisoffice, whichwasin doesn’t liketoreadmuch.” And againnothinghappenedforawhile. Finally, Icalledheragain found itagain. Nowit’saproblemtogethimreadit.” “What doyoumean?” “Well, he again.” Isaid, “Oh mygod. Alright.” Butacoupleofdayslatershecalledmeandsaid, “I’ve Berlin. Ihadnocopy. Isaid, “I don’thaveacopy.” And shesaid, “Well, youhavetowriteit WEBER: Carbonpaper, right. Itwasveryhardtocomebyafterthewar, especiallyinEast JAKOVLJEVIC: Carbonpaper. papers lost it. Icouldn’tshowittohimbecauselostit. Bringmeacopy.” Inthosedays, theseblue They didn’tlikeitorwhatever. StillIcalledhereventuallyandshesaid, “Oh yes, mygod, I very much. IhavetogiveitBrechtreadandwe’llcallyou.” Ofcourse, nobodycalled. scenes ing.” IpickedtwoscenesfromPuntilaandwroteashortstory, sotospeak, abouteachofthe said, “What doyoumean, areview?” Shesaid, “No notareview. Justdescribewhat’shappen- later becameaveryfamousdirectorinGermany. met bychancePeterPalitzsch, whowasthechiefdramaturgofBrecht’stheatreattime wanted toworkwithBrecht. There wasnoquestionformewhereIwantedtogo. At apartyI 8. 7. formed in 1948 at the Schauspielhaus Zürich. Herr Puntila und sein Knecht Matti ( to become, like Weber, an assistant at the Berliner Ensemble. Peter Palitzsch (1918–2004) was a German director who was recruited by Brecht from the Dresden Volksbühne — — retelling what’shappeninginthescenes. Then Itookittoher. Shesaid, “Thank you what doyoucallitinEnglish? Mr. Puntila and His Man Matti) was written by Brecht in 1940 and first- per 7 Imentionedtohimthatwouldverymuch

— — 8 I the he Carl Weber 61

10 Reiling Der Prozess Prozess Der Reiling These two plays were These two plays were 9 eventually it was expanded into a eventually it was expanded — quite a nice one. Food was cheap. You could eat very well for five marks. So for five marks. could eat very well You was cheap. Food quite a nice one. —

(1937). (1937). 1431 Rouen zu d’Arc Jeanne der by 1949 in Ensemble Berliner the join to Invited director. and actor Swiss a was (1922–2006) Besson Benno Müller. Heiner with often working 1960s, the in Volksbühne at Artisticbecame later he Director BertoltBrecht, Anna Seghers is the pseudonym for the playwright Anna (Netty) Reiling; the radio play was play radio the Reiling; (Netty) Anna playwright the for pseudonym the is Seghers Anna 9. was directed by Egon Monk, the first Monk, was directed by Egon Carrar The Rifles of Señora himself. not directed by Brecht d’Arc was directed of Jean Trial The when he came back to Berlin in ’49. assistant Brecht hired Zürich. a young French-Swiss director who had worked with Brecht in by Benno Besson, 10.

full-length play. Brecht’s play was based on a radio play by Anna Seghers. Brecht’s play was based on a radio play by full-length play. dramaturg assistant too.” Then she sent me next door to the financial director to sign the con- the financial director sent me next door to Then she assistant too.” dramaturg experience. strange Very company. how I came to the That’s tract. you made? remember how much HUNTER: Do you MICHAEL could live on You was okay. It East marks. mark was five West One 600 East marks. WEBER: a two- 60 marks a month for I paid instance, For East Germany. were very low in Prices that. room apartment 600 marks was certainly enough to live on. I’d done it for the two years before. I had lived with two years before. I’d done it for the enough to live on. 600 marks was certainly year you got a small increase. Then every money at the other theatre. the same amount of you join the Berliner Ensemble? : So when exactly did JAKOVLJEVIC The first August. in late Ensemble in the beginning of the ’52 season, WEBER: I joined the and The War; the Spanish Civil assistant director was a one-act play about show I worked on as time a one-hour play which was at that d’Arc, of Jeanne Trial Brecht brought him to Berlin where he became one of the leading directors in the Ensemble. one of the leading directors in the Ensemble. Brecht brought him to Berlin where he became France and Switzerland and for a while the artis- Later he became a very famous director in In a way you Brecht supervised both productions. in East Berlin. Volksbühne tic director of the might say he directed them. the Berliner Ensemble. administrative role at Weigel’s in Helene I am interested TACATA: as the mother of the Berliner Ensemble Weigel Gitta Honegger speaks of Helene [Honegger 2007]. a brilliant She was a very shrewd businesswoman, you might say that. yes, Well WEBER: attention to the smallest detail including sometimes going She paid enormous administrator. “It’s dirty.” mimes checking for dust with his fingers]: around the offices and doing this [Carl an incred- She was an incredible actress, of a family. She ran the whole company like a mother exactly for every She was able to repeat the same gestus ible presence onstage and in life. When I first watched her It was really amazing to me. performance after performance. moment, original creation of I was amazed by how close she stuck to the many times in Mother Courage She was able to do that. the character she had done in ’49. maybe this is a good moment to Weigel, : Since we were talking about Helene JAKOVLJEVIC are with Helene Here you in the Brecht archives. look at the photograph Jens Pohlmann found 1]. having tea and smoking cigarettes [fig. Weigel sofa was in This That’s in her office. I don’t recall that [laughs]. WEBER: Let me see. her office. Do you remember who is the other person? you on the right. That’s : JAKOVLJEVIC not a member of probably someone from the outside, It’s WEBER: I don’t know who that is. I don’t remember. a journalist? I don’t know. maybe Someone visiting, the company. Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

62 Carl Weber theatre thinking, ohyes, thiswomandeservedwhatshe gotbecauseshetriedtoprofitfrom sive. Iagree, insofaryoumightsaytheproductionfailed becausethepeopledidn’tleave WEBER: Yes, youfellinlovewithher. The performancewasoutstanding, soincrediblyimpres- dering, whenyousawitthefirsttime, didyoufind yourselffallinginlovewithher? always imaginedthatmaybewasaboutthemagnetismof Weigel’s performance. Iwaswon- in lovewithherandmissthepointthattheyweresupposedto becriticalofheractions. I’ve he feltliketheaudiencesweretoosympathetictowardsprotagonist andthattheywouldfall HUNTER: I’vealwaysbeenreallyinterestedinBrecht’swritings aboutMotherCourage, that per­formance somewhere. his nameeven. Imeanallthewomenhaveflowers, soitmusthavebeenduringaguest WEBER: Notreally, no. The tallguywiththehat, hewasanactor. Idon’tremember JAKOVLJEVIC: Doyourecognizeanyoneelsefromthepicture? WEBER: Right. JAKOVLJEVIC: The onewiththeglasses? Annemarie Hase. Shewasanactressinthecompany. He looksquitelikeanactorinthecompany. Imean, thewomanonothersideofman, WEBER: Well helookslikeanactorfromthecompanybutIdon’tthink...no, it’snothim. JAKOVLJEVIC: Doyouknowwhoisthepersoninmiddle? places, yes. of ’53whenwewenttoPoland, firsttoKraków, thento Warsaw. Thenit’sin one ofthose WEBER: Ohyeah. Well thenitmustbein’52whenwewentto...inDecember’52, January KEARA HARMAN: The signlookslikeit’swritteninPolish. Inthecenter. WEBER: I’mjustwonderingwherethatis. It’snotinBerlinasfarIknow. [fig. 2]? JAKOVLJEVIC: We have anotherphotographofyouwith Weigel. Doyourememberthisone on Weigel’scooking. a restaurantnowinthebasementofBrechthouseBerlinwherewholemenuisbased pany, todiscusscertainmattersandsheprovideddinneraswell. Hercookingwasgreat. There’s we sometimeswerecalledtoherhouse, alloftheyoungdirectorsanddramaturgscom- meal, whichdidn’thappensomuchwhenBrechtwasstillalivebutlaterafterdead WEBER: Shewasawonderfulcookandsometimeswhenyouwereinvitedatthehousefor TACATA: There arereportsthat Weigel wasanincrediblecook. WEBER: Iwasinmylate20shere. JAKOVLJEVIC: And you’reinyour20shere? pany andsheliveduntil’72. Shelived72years. WEBER: Shewasprobably53or54. Shewasborn1900soshe52whenIjoinedthecom- HUNTER: Howoldissheinthisphoto? 11. since been identified as Wolfgang Pintzka. As noted earlier, Weigel died in 1971, just before her 71st birthday. The other person in the photo (fig. 1) has 11 Carl Weber 63

Figure 2. From left: Helene Weigel, Erich Franz, Annemarie Hase, and Carl Weber. Lodz, Poland, December December Poland, Lodz, Weber. Carl and Hase, Annemarie Franz, Erich Weigel, Helene left: From 2. Figure Archive) (Courtesy1952. Bertoltof Brecht the war. Weigel’s performance was so strong, inevitably the audience has to fall in love with her inevitably the audience has to fall in love performance was so strong, Weigel’s the war. Brecht wanted the audience in the end to There are similar problems in Galileo. as a character. Brecht mentioned But Andrea. like he does himself in his final long speech to condemn Galileo, we have to get the audience involved with the charac- during rehearsals several times that first Only then can in what is going to happen to the character. get them really deeply interested ter, which is a wonderful theory but I doubt that it worked all we begin to criticize the character, Brecht tried very hard was wonderful. under Brecht, who played Galileo Ernst Busch, the time. Busch First of all, That didn’t work. in the last scene to make him as unsympathetic as possible. The audience loved was an incredible actor with enormous and sympathetic presence onstage. still being him and whatever he did in the last scene never prevented them from still loving him, with him instead of against him. Brecht started to work on Almost a year before you joined the Berliner Ensemble, TACATA: . the film version of Mother Courage Wolfgang There was an East German film director, WEBER: He didn’t work on it really. like The Are of wonderful movies, at that time very famous for a couple Murderers Staudte, Staudte started to rehearse Mother the war. one of the first films right after Among Us [1946], The film was copro- and Bernard Blier the Cook. Yvette Simone Signoret was to play . Courage But there were more the East German film company. duced by a French company and DEFA, Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

64 Carl Weber TACATA: Canyoutellusaboutthecircumstances thatledtothisletter? WEBER: Letmesee, signedbyBrechtisn’tit?OrmaybeIwrote theletter, that’sright. Archive aletteryouwrotetoJoanLittlewood. Doyourecall thisletter? TACATA: Jens Pohlmann, oneofthemembersourworkshop, foundintheBertoltBrecht me initimmediatelyandIplayeduntilleft’61. not originally. The personwhoplayedtheroleleft thecompanywhenIcamein’52sotheyput but theironshirtsdon’taccepthim. Iplayedoneofthe lawyersinthelastsceneforawhile, but the runIplayedlittlenephewoffatgranddukewhois supposedtobecomethejudge Governor’s entourageinthebeginningwhentheygotochurch onEastermorning. Laterin but smallroles. InChalkCircleIplayedoneoftheweddingguestsandpeoplein the tor, ifsomeonewasill, Iwouldhavetostepin. Imean, nottoplaytheChaplainorwhatever, WEBER: Right. Becausewerantheseplaysformanyyears, andIwastheassistantdirec- her son” [Brecht(1980)1994:60]. Soyouweretheson. JAKOVLJEVIC: Sceneeight: “A summermorning. Infrontofthecartstandanoldwomanand beginning ofsceneeight[pointingtoscript]. WEBER: Yes, from’52–’61. The boywhotriestosellbeddingher. This smallsectioninthe TACATA: In1952youstartedperforminginMotherCourage. dance theatre. That wasit, Ididittwice. Danish Critics’Prize. Then Ididitin Wuppertal in West Germany, wherePinaBauschhadher I wasstillwiththeEnsemble. That productionwasinvitedto Aarhus inDenmark;itwonthe first WEBER: The TACATA: What weretheproductionsofMotherCourage youdidaftertheBerlinerEnsemble? totally. Basically, IfollowedthevisualnarrativeBrechtdevelopedinhisproduction. what wehadinBerlin. Ihadtoadaptandsometimeschangetheblockingadegree, butnever lar actorbecausethiswasencouragingherorhispersonalgestus, whichwassodifferentfrom WEBER: Ifollowedthemodelbooktoagreatextent. Exceptforchangeswithaparticu- Berliner Ensemble. VITTORI: I’dliketoknowaboutyourownproductionsofMotherCourage, afterleavingthe The modelbookismorecorrectaboutwhattheproductionslookedlike. Mother Courage. Visually it’sverydifferentfromthestageproduction, much morenaturalistic. realistic elementssuchastreesandthingslikethat, Idon’tthinkit’saverygoodrenderingof you canstudythewayactorsdidit. Otherwise, becauseit’sdoneinastudio, andhadsome WEBER: The blockingwasmoreorlessthesameasonstage. The filmisinterestingbecause TACATA: Didyoufeellikeitwasagoodversion? was different. Courage, thestageproductionasitwasattime, exceptitwasdoneinamoviestudio;theset And thatwastheendofthat. Brecht feltverystronglyitshouldbedonethewayhesawit. Eventually, Staudtewalkedout. and moredisagreementsbetweenBrechtStaudteaboutwhatscenesshouldlooklike. 12. After Brecht’sdeath, Manfred Wekwerth andPeterPalitzschtogetherfilmedMother For a scan of the letter, see the online supplemental materials for this article. Mother Courage IdidoutsideoftheEnsemblewasinLübeck, in’58, when 12

Carl Weber 65

13 I mean — a very famous — to get an injunction against the production. —

Oscar Beuselinck was a London-based attorney who specialized in litigation in the worlds of entertainmentof worlds the in litigation in and specialized who attorney London-based a was Beuselinck Oscar 1997). (Silvester media the Now the point was that the show was supposed to open outside of London in Barnstaple, Now the point was that the show was supposed to open outside of London in Barnstaple, 13. he lived in London proper, in the middle of the city and they were in East London, Stratford, Stratford, the middle of the city and they were in East London, in he lived in London proper, told him that And then they It’s like Coney Island from Manhattan. which is quite a ways out. could do it very well and she was going to direct Littlewood had decided that the other actress She’s in no way seen the other actress. I mean I’ve “that’s impossible. Then I said to Oscar, her. why Joan Littlewood doesn’t want to perform.” good enough for the part and I have no idea Maybe she got afraid of the part? you remember that conversation with Lewenstein? How well do TACATA: for me a lit- Because Joan Littlewood’s theatre rented yes. very much so, WEBER: Oh yeah, I went to to stay there during the rehearsals. theatre, tle room in a small house very close to the she wrote a let- And I stayed in Oscar’s house. Oscar Lewenstein and then after that happened, therefore she had to replace that she couldn’t work with me, where she maintained ter to Oscar, this letter to her and to Elizabeth Hauptmann in Then I wrote herself with another actress. Brecht insisted Oscar went to Paris to meet Brecht there and they discussed it and then Berlin. Paris and told Oscar came back from the rights. that Joan has to play it or he would withdraw And then we went to Oscar’s lawyer who still refused to do it. Joan Littlewood, theatrical lawyer called Beuselinck in London WEBER: Brecht sent me over to work with her. Oscar Lewenstein, who was a very famous pro- who was Oscar Lewenstein, to work with her. Brecht sent me over WEBER: in Theatre in London the Royal Court then later he founded at the time and ducer in London . to Mother Courage about the rights and to talk to Brecht Berlin to meet Brecht came to ’56...’55, Littlewood plays the if Joan okay, said yes, as I remember, with some hesitation, And Brecht, when Then, Weigel. like looked remotely say, you might and, was a very good actress She part. Joan Littlewood, over there to work with Brecht sent me started in London, the rehearsals so well, and play the part as cannot direct Mother Courage You directing it. because she was also she might start to block “Okay, said He go there to work in the beginning. Brecht wanted me to And so I be directing her.” when she begins to rehearse you would the play herself but then - the rehears we started the show, When the beginning seemed to be okay. went to London and and had another actress as a stand based on the model book, basically, she was directing als, then after a And which was okay. so to speak, just to see the show from the outside, in for her, “but Joan you have I said to her all the time the other actress and she kept rehearsing while, of course. yes, “yes, she said And you are about to play the part.” yourself, to begin to rehearse more clear idea about the whole It gives me a with her for a little bit. But first let me work to the theatre and the guy a weekend and I came back the next day And then there was play.” stood at the who was also her lover, Raffles, Gerry administrative director, who was the kind of Joan doesn’t you can’t go in. “No, “what’s the matter?” I said can’t go in.” “You door and said what’s the matter?” “Oscar, I went to Oscar Lewenstein and said, want to have you around.” on the phone and then he called them and they told him, “I don’t know” And he said, And Beuselinck said we can do that but of course they can go to court and refuse it and demand And Beuselinck said we can do that but of do the play and we can’t stop them from doing the a second hearing and meanwhile they can furious about that. Brecht was really play by the injunction. There is always a theatre festival in the summer and the a place on the west coast of England. So show was supposed to open during the festival there and then come to London afterwards. because the condition was that if the play then Brecht insisted that Littlewood play it herself, And eventually she played it with- failed in Barnstaple it was not supposed to go to London. and I went to Barnstaple to Oscar And it was a disaster. out having barely rehearsed the role. Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

66 Carl Weber you arekeepingOscarandmeawayfromrehearsals. Oscar madeinBerlincertainpromises to sayrightawaywhatIwasthinking. This wasnotthe onlywaytoworktogether, wasit?Now I alwayssaidweshoulddiscussitinprivate, notinfrontofthe actors. Butyouencouragedme that Iwouldagreetoanyworkingarrangementyousuggested. When youaskedforcomments bidden metoattendrehearsalsandhaveaskedOscaraswell stayaway. You knowverywell other actressandactuallyshewascastasthepeasant’swifein thedrumscene. “You havefor Mother Courageandthatyouaregoingonrehearsingthepart withKatherine.” That wasthe ing anyreasonsormotive. Second, wearewonderingifyou havedecidedthatyoucannotplay certainly nowaytobreakanagreementwithoutanydiscussion oftheissue, withoutpresent- accepted, whateverconsequencescouldhavecomefromthat. Buthavingacceptedthis, thisis from BerlintohelpwiththeproductionofBrecht’splay. Knowingthis, youshouldnothave an outsiderdisturbedyou, obviously. Butyouknewthisbeforeagreedtoacceptsomeone ference ofBrechtortheBerlinerEnsemble. You workinyourownwayandthepresenceof thing verydifferent. First, tomeithasbeenclearthatyouresentedwhatregardedasinter together lastweekandwearewonderingifthemotiveisnotwhatyouhavegivenbutsome- which camereallymorethanunexpectedforme, wetalkedaboutthewayyouworkedwithme WEBER: Well, yes. “Joan, afterIhavediscussedwithOscaryourstrangeandamazingletter JAKOVLJEVIC: Want togiveitashot? WEBER: Yes, it’shardtoread. EvenIhaveproblemstoreadit. trying todeciphertheletterandit’s reallyhard. [Animageoftheletterisprojectedonwall.] more intherethanwhatsherevealsherautobiography. Canyouhelpusreadtheletter?Iwas the play” [1994:466]. That’s howmuchshesaysabouttheproduction. Isuspecttherewasmuch side turnedmystomach. MotherCouragehadtostopherselffromvomitingforwell-nighhalf ****-*** hen. Ihadtopluckitinthefirstsceneandwasstinking. Thesmellfromitsback- twenty-four hoursbeforecurtainup. Ihadnochoice. Imighthavegotawaywithitbutforthat JAKOVLJEVIC: “Either Iplaythepartorhispermissionwouldbewithdrawn. Itookover WEBER: Yes. This cametoBrecht’s ears.” And Ithinkthat’s whereyoucomein. company’s futureprogramme. IgaveMother Couragetoagoodactressandgotonwiththejob. I shouldplaytheheroine, butnow, withoutthetwostalwarts, Iwasfacedwithre-planningthe Courage. When Brechtgaveuspermissiontoperformhiswork, itwasontheunderstandingthat the wholeproductionofMotherCourage. It’s onpage466anditreads: “IMother hadtoplay Joan Littlewood’s Peculiar History As She Tells It[Littlewood1994]. There isoneparagraphon JAKOVLJEVIC: LittlewoodhardlyevenmentionsyouinherautobiographyJoan’s Book: totally sickfortherestofshow, supposedly. to pluckinthesecondscenewasrottenandstankshenearlyvomited, shewrote, andwas about herlife in BarnstapleandsoitnevercametoLondon. And inhermemoir from theverybeginning, thatgoingtoLondonwasdependentonthewayproductiondid of Kennethandothers, BrechtwithdrewtherightsforLondon, becausethatwasinthecontract critics werethere. NotonlybecauseofMotherCourage, forthefestivalassuch. Basedonreviews he, fromwhatIrecall, wroteaprettydevastatingreviewoftheproduction. watch itandKenneth Tynan wasthere. Itoldhimbrieflyaboutwhathadhappened and then 14. masterpiece borders on insult” (Tynan 2007:278). lifeless mumble, looking over-parted and under-rehearsed [...] The result is a production to a in which discourtesy In his autobiography, Oscar Lewenstein (1994:25) cites Kenneth Tynan’s review: “Joan plays it in a Littlewood — she blamesthewholemishapinBarnstapleonfactthatchickenhas — Littlewood wroteabook 14 All theLondon - - Carl Weber 67 - definitely I can’t read that. —

— “feel that Katherine,” yeah, the actress “is not able to play actress the yeah, “feel that Katherine,” — “I can only request” something “time.” something “I can only request” —

— about London, maybe? about London, obviously definitely

—

ing, and I understand that very well, you would not be able to play it well. I very strongly dis- I very strongly well. be able to play it you would not well, I understand that very and ing, Katherine will not be able to do you could do it very well and I think I believe agree with you. all from there would be no objections at play it, If you you work on her. it no matter how hardly was the agreement with Brecht “Because so it’s very hard to read. Now I think Brecht or me.” the enormous difficulties and all I know the very hard conditions, when Oscar was in Berlin. I’ve... of the theatre as well. you as a producer of the play and director the big problems facing producers I have met and that that you are one of the few outstanding beside that the opinion therefore I you are very honest, the best that I have ever seen and I think your group is one of has insensitivity etc. production...arrogance, really think a rubber-stamp cannot believe that you The only arrogance I can see is your the situation we face at the moment. something to do with the emotional state you are in But I understand insensible letter to me. very unreasonable and you will apologize for it as soon as angry nor hurt by it and I am sure right now so I am neither no it’s not Cooly, you feel calmer and face the facts cooly.” to Brecht. I was, as far as the production is concerned, Brecht’s representative here. Of course, course, Of here. Brecht’s representative production is concerned, as far as the I was, to Brecht. you knew as I already On the other side, in your own way. that you must work we understand not But we wonder if it is think efficient. you in any way you agree to work with I would said, of your own working Not only because of us around the theatre. for you to have one impossible are fear You yourself. part of Mother Courage not rehearsing the but because you are methods, TACATA: It looks like “cooly.” It looks like TACATA: still remains, as I see it, The chief point, “...and face the facts cooly. yeah. “Cooly,” WEBER: I have serious objections If Katherine really is going to play it, who will play Mother Courage. and if you are...” : “are going” JAKOVLJEVIC “if you are going to...” probably going. yeah, “if you are going,” WEBER: “neglect the agreement” : JAKOVLJEVIC I can well...” “neglect the agreement with Brecht and Oscar and insist on casting her, WEBER: — LINDSEY MANTOAN: WEBER: Yeah probably. “I can only request another time that I strongly disagree.” Yeah, “I can Yeah, request another time that I strongly disagree.” “I can only probably. Yeah WEBER: And then I can- “I can only repeat another time that I strongly disagree.” I believe. only repeat,” not read the next “I wish you” TACATA: WEBER: “about the” something “performance of the play. This is really” “performance of the play. something “about the” WEBER: WEBER: “I wish” then, “and Brecht, I am sure, feels...are not honest and I certainly object” or feels...are not honest and I certainly object” I am sure, “and Brecht, then, “I wish” WEBER: def- “But if I was ready...I obviously. our collaboration, “the way you tried to finish it,” reject initely” you will play the part now there will be no question I am convinced that...if Mother Courage. about...” — TACATA: : “the reason”? JAKOVLJEVIC it seems Never worried, obviously. Never worried, “I’ve never worried.” WEBER: I did have... “that you are going to play obviously still hoping” “my confidence despite...I’m to be worried: you told me already one day you would ­ “Remember something like that. the part,” and rehearse the part and asked me if I would be ready to direct the scenes you were in I accepted.” Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

68 Carl Weber she wasplayingthepartanddirecting theshowaswell, whichisimpossible. You cannotreally WEBER: No, thatwasnot necessarilythecase. The pointwasheofferedtosend mebecause own interpretationoftheplay? production was, inaway, interferingwiththeirartisticexpressionor righttohavetheir posed toplaytheroleofMother CourageandalsoofsendingyoutoLondonwatchover the JENS POHLMANN:Iwanttoaskyou:wouldn’t youagreethatBrecht’s policyofwhoissup- know. Shewasactuallyhiredforthatandsherehearsing thatroleinthebeginning. WEBER: Shewassupposedtoplaythepeasant’s wifeinthedrumscene. Very smallpart, asyou TACATA: Why didn’t youthinkshecoulddoit? and soforth. We hadaverylongdiscussionaboutthat. said, “she can’t do it,” andJoanmaintained, “she can.” Isaid, “well Idon’t thinkso” and soon afraid ofdoingtherole. Obviously. And that’s whysheusedtheotherwoman, but Iimmediately WEBER: Icouldn’t understand why. Irealizedeventuallythat, whateverthereason, shewas Joan Littlewood. TACATA: Throughout theletteryouwriteaboutaverytensesituationbetweenand other actress, KatherineParr, Ibelieve. with herandGerryRaffles, heradministrativedirector, andtheystillinsistedonrehearsingthe still insistedthatsheshouldplaytheroleofMotherCourage. Then Oscarhadalongdiscussion at the Théâtre desNationsfestival, andOscarwentovertotalkBrechtaboutallthis. Brecht other actressandthenLewensteinwenttoParis. The EnsemblewasinPariswithChalkCircle WEBER: No, no. ShejustcalledOscarLewensteinandinsistedthatshewouldrehearsethe MANTOAN: Didyougetaletterback? And itwasactually20thofJune’55. many thingsbesidestherehearsals:music, thesetting, thecostumes, etc... Sincerelyyours...” still atLondonavailableforyouandalwayswillingtohelpthecompany. There arestill WEBER: Ohyeah, ofcourse. Somethingmissingtheresomehow. “Despite everythingIam MANTOAN: “I hopeIcannotblame youfor...and thatyoustarttorehearseyourself.” cannot blameyouif...incasethatyou...” orsomething WEBER: Yeah MANTOAN: — WEBER: — JAKOVLJEVIC: — cles. Therefore Irecommend...” WEBER: — JAKOVLJEVIC: — are...miracles butIratherrecon...” mean, obviouslyItoldhereverythingthatbotheredme... “and youknowthatverywell. Ifthere WEBER: No, “with...with...I toldyoueverythingaboutmy... You knowthatverywell.” Well, I — “Katherine.” MANTOAN: WEBER: Yeah. “The otherday...” Obviously. “...you wantedanothertrywith...” MANTOAN: “The otherday” “as friendlyandasstronglyIcanthatyou...” “assume tobelieveinmiracles.” “I refuse,” yeah. “...but Irefusetobelieveinmira- schein “give upanyhope...” “as friendly” “to believe.” — that seemstobe “...give upanyhopethatshecouldplayit. Idohope

—

— — Carl Weber 69 I can’t remember it remember I can’t — I’ve never seen a bad Kattrin in my life. The role of a deaf-mute I’ve never seen a bad Kattrin in my life. — “that’s the way the world is and it shouldn’t be so,” and the translation had, “this is translation had, and the be so,” the way the world is and it shouldn’t “that’s

— and play the part yourself. Especially if you have not done it before. done it before. if you have not Especially part yourself. and play the Mother Courage Kattrin is always good

15 George Cooper played the Cook, Harry Corbett played the Chaplain, and Barbara Brown, Kattrin (see Goorney Goorney (see Kattrin Brown, HarryCook, the Barbara and Chaplain, the played Cooper played Corbett George 1981). behavior is always impressive and it’s easy for actresses to do. I wrote after she told me not to easy for actresses to do. behavior is always impressive and it’s And she refused just this guy Raffles did. me herself, She never told come to rehearsal anymore. It was a very peculiar situation really. to see me after that when I said I wanted to see her. Do you remember Joan wrote to you. mention a very offensive letter that You : JAKOVLJEVIC what was in that letter? 15. the way the world is and will always be so.” This was the most blatant mistake, because it dis- mistake, This was the most blatant and will always be so.” the way the world is Joan In the meantime, to say. what Brecht was trying of the play, torted totally the meaning very happy when Oscar told to rehearse the other actress and she was Littlewood had begun a yes that’s “Oh and she said, the script,” Allan and he can work with Carl on Ted got “I’ve her, But she was happy to get me out I. and Ted translation together, did a new We wonderful idea.” asked me not to come to the theatre. when they Then I came back and that’s of rehearsals. that because you Was his ambassador? : Do you know why Brecht chose you as JAKOVLJEVIC could speak English? Besson could Benno There was no one else in the company who spoke English really. WEBER: the leading young director in the company but have been the logical person to send being speak English. Benno doesn’t oversee the production? stand-in in London to : How did it feel to be Brecht’s JAKOVLJEVIC Did you feel uncomfortable? were very but then Littlewood and Raffles about it, I felt a bit uncomfortable Yes, WEBER: no idea what the reasoning was behind her behavior I have extremely welcoming. nice to me, actress. She was an excellent the role very well. She could have done later. how to oversee the production? : Did Brecht give you any instructions on JAKOVLJEVIC They had the model book, a particular type of staging. WEBER: He did not send me to enforce He just wanted me to help her. send me to enforce it. but he didn’t you asked to report back? Were TACATA: it was going I wrote to him in the beginning, a week. WEBER: I wrote a letter to Berlin once The actors who played was quite good. I found, The company, I was very pleased. very well. I remember Kattrin was very good as well, actors. the Cook and the Chaplain were wonderful that. ­literally direct Brecht proposed to send me to help her in staging it and rehearsing it especially and that was and that was it and rehearsing it especially help her in staging to send me to Brecht proposed that I discovered was great. in fact it very nice, at first they were When I came, the agreement. Lewenstein hired And then Oscar was bad; full of mistakes. they were using the translation He was a Canadian theatre had just done. Littlewood’s whose play Joan Allan, Ted playwright his. a good friend of and was quite knew Brecht in Hollywood and film writer who playwright during the McCarthy period in London because he was blacklisted At the time he was living house for a couple of weeks Allan’s Ted lived at I work there anymore. America and couldn’t in very well is the ballad they sing One example which I remember to redo the whole translation. and Mother Courage are sing- the Cook in the 10th scene I believe, before the parish house, refrain is and Caesar and the last line of each ing a song about Solomon Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

70 Carl Weber okay, polite. WEBER: Itwasinarestaurant actuallyandtherewereotherpeoplearoundsoshewas JAKOVLJEVIC: Canyoutellusaboutthatencounter? play shehaddoneinLondonbeforeanddirectedthatatthe theatrethere. and directedinMaximGorki Theater. Idon’t rememberwhatitwas...anadaptationofaGreek WEBER: IsawheronceagaininEastBerlin. Manymany yearslatershecametoEastBerlin MANTOAN: What wasyourrelationshipwithJoanLittlewoodafterthis? tion, wasprobablybecauseOscaracommunist. to OscarandJoanLittlewoodbywayofOscar, whowastheofficialproducerofproduc- felt thattheywouldn’t dojustice tohisplays. Oneofthereasons, Isuppose, hegavetherights WEBER: Notonlythat. Hewasverycarefulaboutgiving therightstoproductionswherehe careful aboutthemoneyhewasgettingfromproductionsand translationsofhisworks. to hisbiographers, hewasveryscrupulousaboutperformingrights, publishingrights, andvery JAKOVLJEVIC: DidBrechtwithdrawtheproducingrightsfromJoanLittlewood? According London. good really. After thecompanydisbandedacoupleofyearsafterwards, I’dseenthemallagainin pany. HarryCorbett, whoplayedtheChaplain, wasawonderfulactor. All theactorswerevery WEBER: No, notreally. Actually, Ithinkthecompanywasverygood. Itwasanexcellentcom- TACATA: Canyourecallaparticularscene? been doneonstage, tocommentonit. And soIdidbecausesheaskedmeto. WEBER: No, Idon’t. Imeanitwasahabit, toaskmealwayscomment wheneverascenehad TACATA: Doyourememberwhatthatwas? thing. SoIsaidwhatfelt. WEBER: Sheaskedmequiteofteninfrontoftheactors, inrehearsal, whatIfeltaboutsome- actors. You say, “I alwaysfeltweshoulddiscussinprivate, notinfrontoftheactors.” TACATA: InyourletteryoualsomentionanincidentbetweenandJoan infrontofthe she steppedinwithaverybrieftimetorehearseandperformeditBarnstaple. question aboutit. Eventuallysheherselfrealizedthattheotheractresscouldn’t play itandthen WEBER: Well Iwantedtocontinueworkwithher. Becauseshewasawonderfulactress. No very diplomatic. JAKOVLJEVIC: This isprobablyacarboncopy. You areverycomposedintheletter, verycalm, of ittoBrechtaswell. That’s probably howitendedupinthearchive. WEBER: Yes, ofcourseIdid. Iwrotethisimmediatelyaftergottheletter. And Isentacopy HARMAN: Didyouansweritrightawayaftergottheletter? Berlin whenIwenttothe West in’61. WEBER: No, Ithinkit’s...no, no Idon’t haveit. IfIsavedit, itwouldhavebeenleftinEast JAKOVLJEVIC: Didyousavetheletter? ence woulddisturbthecompanyandshecan’t havethat. production basedontheBerlinmodel. That wasoneofthereasonsshepretendedthatmypres- WEBER: Well shesaidsimplysomethingabouthowisnotwillingtodoarubber-stamp Carl Weber 71

19 - ; in 1961 1961 in ; Tinko who had a cer 16 18 and not with Brecht or Benno Besson, Besson, Brecht or Benno and not with 17 and seized the land of former Nazis and war criminals. criminals. war and Nazis former of land the seized and Bodenreform

20 premiered at the Berliner Ensemble in 1953 (dir. Bertolt Brecht) and was pub - was and Bertolt Brecht) (dir. 1953 in Ensemble Berliner the at premiered Katzgraben

he received the LMDA GE Lessing award for lifetime achievement in the field of dramaturgy. of field the in achievement lifetime for award Lessing GE the LMDA received he termed was reform agrarian postwar This military listing Bodenreform, of completion the announced administration Soviet the of 1947 September In landless of families 119,000 to redistributed and seized been 12,355 estates,had that acres, 6,000,000 totaling categories. other in 300,000 some and families, refugee 83,000 farmers, East by strike a with 1953 June 16 on began DDR) der in Germany East in Uprising (Volksaufstand People’s The violently was Berlin East in uprising The labor groups. other to spread constructionquickly and Berlin workers lished in 1967. A film of the original production exists and was first screened on German television on 20 on television German on screened first was and exists production original the of A film 1967. in lished 1957. October author. and director, actor, German a was (1927–2007) Monk Egon novel his for 1955 in GDR the of Prize National the awarded (1912–1994), ErwinStrittmatter The play was about a village in East Germany shortly after the war, after the so-called land after the so-called land war, village in East Germany shortly after the The play was about a although Brecht was supervising rehearsals for that show. Basically, most of the rehearsals were most of the rehearsals Basically, show. rehearsals for that was supervising although Brecht The way the produc- production. Brecht’s of course, but this was, done by Monk and Besson, for] new plays at the Brecht was on a jury for [a competition tion came about is interesting. Erwin Strittmatter, He found a play by a writer called I believe. in ’52, time, 19. 20. 17. 18. Erwin Strittmatter’s 16. Erwin Strittmatter’s ? of Katzgraben with the production What was your involvement HARMAN: show I did with Brecht It was the first for the show. I was the directing assistant WEBER: was with Egon Monk The one before that himself. Katzgraben tain reputation as a novelist by that time. He later became one of the most successful novelists He later became one by that time. tain reputation as a novelist of the GDR. then given to the former farm estates were divided into small parcels and reform where the big in a house which was owned by the They usually lived on the big estates. workers who worked and they worked on the estate as farmhands. They had to pay rent for the house, estate owner. so whatever they bought they was usually owned by the landowner, The shop in the village on the estates in what was formerly That was usually the situation bought from him practically. of East especially in the northern and middle sections the eastern part of the Prussian Kingdom, After workers. All the big estates there were owned by mainly aristocrats and the land Germany. as they called it. “land reform,” they introduced a the war in East Germany in the Soviet zone These big estates were parceled into smaller pieces and then given to the former farmhands, the pieces and then given to the former farmhands, These big estates were parceled into smaller these new farm The play was mainly about the problems who became small farmers. peasants, but farmers who had not really big estates, owners, There were still former estate owners had. The their farms. so they kept and not war criminals, They were not aristocrats substantial farms. village between these small farmers and the people who play is really about the conflict within a It is about how much better off than the new farmers. who were usually had farms previously, in making his farm fairly successful and gain- one particular small farmer eventually succeeds the son of a big farmer and the daughter of a very There’s also a kind of love story between ful. The play didn’t get together after some problems during the play. who eventually small farmer, that Strittmatter, Then he discovered but Brecht liked the narrative. by the way, get a prize, So then he helped had basically written blank verse a lot of the time. without being aware of it, quite a fairly unheard of, at that time, This was, him to turn the whole text into blank verse. like Shakespeare. that a contemporary play was written in blank verse, sensational situation, starting It was rehearsed that potential. the play, That was one aspect which Brecht liked about were in rehearsal for it during the We 17th of June. in early 1953 and opened shortly after the 17th of June events. Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

72 Carl Weber be rehearsing, butitturnedouttheydidn’trehearsethatmorning. way butthestreetswereveryempty. Ienteredtherehearsalbuilding, expectingthecompanyto waived uson. Iwantedtogotherehearsalhall, andwedidn’tseeanydemonstrationsonthe city wasnearlyemptyexceptforpoliceateveryintersection. They didn’tdoanything, theyjust By nowtheS-Bahnhadstoppedrunning, thetramstoo. Everythinghadstopped. The inner morning. Oneoftheactors, a West Berlineractor, hadacarandheofferedtotakeusintotown. decided toleave. The directorobviouslywasn’tabletoentertheEasternsectorofBerlinthat that therewasademonstrationinthecity, butwehadnoideawhatitwasabout. Eventually, we come. We waitedhalfanhour, onehour, oneand ahalfhours. Inthemeantime, wegotword tor tocomefrom West Berlin. We weresupposedtostartdubbingatnineo’clock, buthedidn’t what wasgoingon?ItooktheS-Bahntodubbingstudioswherewewaitedfordirec- that mostoftheprivateshopswereclosedatatimewhentheyusuallyopen. Iwondered in Schöneweide, whichisfairlyfaroutinEastBerlin. OnthewaytoS-Bahnstation, Isaw a hundredortwomarks. Onthe17thofJune, athalfpasteightIleftforthestudios that time, becauseitwasveryeasymoney. Fortwohoursyoudubbedforeignfilmsandearned of work. Onthe17ththisbecameageneraluprising. IdidalotofvoiceoversinEastBerlinat avenue inEastBerlin. And theydemonstratedagainstgettinglessmoneyforthesameamount tion onFriedrichstraßeofconstructionworkerswhowerebuildingtheStalinallee, anewbig Deutsches Theater. Walking fromtherehearsalhalltostationIcameuponademonstra- theatre totheS-BahnrailstationatFriedrichstraße. We wererehearsingacrossfromthe WEBER: The firstamazingthinghappenedontheafternoonof16th. Iwentfromthe JAKOVLJEVIC: Doyouremembertheeventsfromworkers’uprisinginEastBerlin? 22. 21. had adiscussioninsteadofrehearsing. Angelika Hurwicz, had gonetotheradiostation. Onlythecompanywasinrehearsalhall. Inthemorning, they things down, butthepartypeoplerefusedtolethim. When Igottotherehearsalhall, Brecht very famoussinger. Brechtwantedtocommentonthesituationwithintention ofcalming to theBerlinerEnsemble. The governmenthadalready changedthepayscalebacktoprevi- the 16ththerewasabigpartymeetinginFriedrichstadt-Palast, abig varietytheatre, rightnext they dealtwiththeworkersandtheirsalarysituation. The ironyisthatontheeveningof demonstrations werejustified. Thatthegovernment had madehorrendousmistakesintheway WEBER: Yes. Itwasarehearsalmorning, excepthe started withameeting. Brechtsaidthatthe Ensemble? JAKOVLJEVIC: Were you presentatthemeetingBrechtcalledfollowingday it atall. They pretendedthatnothingwashappening. so on, reportedwhatwasgoingoninEastBerlinwhilethestationsdidn’tmention went tomyplaceandlistenedtheradio. All ofthe Western Berlinstations, RIAS, SFB, and where Ilivedsoshesaid, “Why don’twedrivetoyourplacefirstandthenI’llhome.” We outside of Weigel, hadacar. Very fewofushadacarinthosedays. Angelika livedfairlycloseto Galileo. She left the ensemble in 1958 for West Germany. of the Gruscha in Brecht didn’trehearse. HeproposedtospeakontheradiotogetherwithErnstBusch, Kattrin in Angelika Hurwicz (1922–1990) was invited by Brecht in 1948 to join the Berliner Ensemble with the role of Ensemble production at the Theater am Schiffbauerdamm (Willet [1959] 1977:46–47). Wilhelm Pabst’s 1931 film. In 1957,he played the title role of Brecht’s Ernst Busch (1900–1980) starred in the original 1928 production of Brecht’s Germany, that continued until reunification in1990. suppressed by the Volkspolizei and Soviet military. In remembrance, 17 June became a national holiday in West Mother Courage . For The Caucasian Chalk Circle, and later she played, among other things, Frau Sarti in Katzgraben she was cast as Mrs. Kleinschmidt. In 1954, Brecht gave her the role 22 theleadingactressofcompany, Life of Galileo in Ernst Engel’s Berliner Threepenny Opera, as well as Georg The Life of 21 this Carl Weber 73 I think, a month before the play opened. It seems like this was in a month before the play opened. I think, 23

The Stanislavsky Conference began on 17 April 1953 at the East Berlin Academy of the Arts and was attended by Arts the by of Academy attended was and Berlin East the at 1953 April 17 on began Conference Stanislavsky The practitioners. theatre than 200 more 23. ous level, but nobody knew it at the time. It was reported on the radio late that night and most late that night and reported on the radio It was at the time. but nobody knew it ous level, listening. people weren’t the Berliner Ensemble? the workers in any discontent among there Was : JAKOVLJEVIC Not at all. No. WEBER: : Stagehands or... JAKOVLJEVIC pleasant to the stagehands. Brecht himself was always extremely not. of course WEBER: No, Sometimes he’d restage things to final rehearsals and ask their opinion. He liked to have them very much. to stagehands, Brecht really listened had said. according to what a stagehand it is the only socialist realist play that According to critics . Katzgraben HARMAN: Back to Brecht did. play about contemporary issues the only the only contemporary play, it was Yes, WEBER: Brecht did in his theatre. There was a at the time. was gaining a lot of currency in Germany HARMAN: Stanislavsky Stanislavsky Conference, some ways a turn away from the development of a more epic, less realistic theatre. less realistic theatre. of a more epic, some ways a turn away from the development When people asked that all his theatre was realistic. WEBER: Brecht maintained all of the time Not natu- they’re realistic. my performances, he said: well look at my plays, him about realism, a big difference between naturalism and realism and For Brecht there was but realistic. ralistic, directed in a realistic It was was certainly a realistic play. in spite of the blank verse, so this play, because Brecht was very strict about maintain- of course, naturalistic, not I would say, manner, actors use the blank verse. ing the blank verse and insisting that the ; instead there are extensive there is no Modellbuch for Katzgraben As far as I know, HARMAN: notes from rehearsals. there is a Modellbuch in Berlin. Well WEBER: HARMAN: It hasn’t been published. I glued in all of the pictures and but I made it. true, WEBER: It hasn’t been published that’s the captions. that the I was struck by how visual the discussions HARMAN: Only having access to the notes, I don’t have it in English, I think maybe you’ve already read this. actors had with Brecht were. a very bad painting which dealt with the he saw, but Brecht talks about a particular painting to develop He talks about how important it is III. meeting between Bismark and Napoleon I was wondering if there are any particular images grandiose visual configurations. impressive, that have burned themselves into your memory from this production. WEBER: In certain scenes I remember the configurations very well. HARMAN: Do you remember what moment this is [showing him an image]? That’s the family of the small farmer what I recall. That’s in the very first scene from WEBER: problems with it because he has no tractor of his He has tremendous who just got his farm. That’s one of once in a while from a much richer farmer. and so he has to borrow a tractor own, who then falls sitting there at the table, you know, daughter, That’s his the conflicts of the play. Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

74 Carl Weber my paper?DoyouwanttobeBrecht? JAKOVLJEVIC: Were youtakenbysurprisewhenhetoldyou, heyCarl, do youwanttoread WEBER: Yeah, hehimselfdidn’tattend. Heneverwent toanyofthesessions. sends youtoreadhisstatement. JAKOVLJEVIC: SoitwastheestablishmentofEastGermantheatrerightthere andBrecht I neversawortalkedtoanyone. WEBER: No, no, justEastGermans. Imeanthere mayhavebeenoneortheotherRussian, but JAKOVLJEVIC: Were thereRussians?OrjustGermans? which meansall...mostoftheleadingtheatrepeopleinRepublicattime. WEBER: Itwasaverybigauditoriumactually. Iwouldsay150peopleattendedeveryday, there? Howbigwastheaudience? JAKOVLJEVIC: Canyoutellusmoreabouttheconference?Howbigwasroom? Who was not supposedtotalk. Iwasnotsupposedtoinvitequestions, justtoreadthestatement. WEBER: At thetimepeopleapplaudedkindofformally, youmightsay, andthatwasit. Iwas JAKOVLJEVIC: Sowhatwasthereaction? geois theatreandwashimselfbourgeois. adapted andusedstillbutremarkedaswellthatStanislavskyafterallwaswritingforabour the statementtoconference, wherehesaysthatthere’salotinStanislavskyfeltcanbe sent byBrechttoreadastatementhim, becausehedidn’twanttodoithimself. SoIread he agreedwiththanhadbelievedbefore. There wasaStanislavskyConference, whereIwas had todealwithiteventually. HediscoveredthattherewasmuchmoreinStanislavskywhich was somuchenforcedinEastGermanythoseyearsthetheatresystem, Brecht, ofcourse, pid itistomakeanactorbelieveheseesaratonstagewhentherenorat. BecauseStanislavsky Method, whichwasbasedofcourseonStanislavsky’steachingsandpractice, abouthowstu- WEBER: There issomewherearemarkhewrote, whilehewasin America, referringtothe Did youhaveanydiscussionswithhim? HARMAN: CanyoutalkalittlebitaboutBrecht’sengagementwithStanislavskyatthispoint? the stagingwasjustasmuchanarrativeblockingotherproductionsofBrecht. because ofitscontemporaryclothingandfurniture. All ofthisis, ofcourse, contemporary. But [Gnasse], was playingKattrininMotherCourage atthattime. The actorinthemiddleiscalledFriedrich played GrushainChalkCirclelaterandbeforethathadKattrinMotherCourage. She in lovewiththesonofrichfarmer. This ishiswife, playedby Angelika Hurwicz. Hurwicz 24. WEBER: Hemighthavemadeitmorenaturalistic for this. it. Iwaswonderingifyoucouldtalkaboutwhatways, ifany, Brechtadaptedhisdirectorialstyle HARMAN: This productionhadamuchmoretraditional, naturalistic, shallwesay, aestheticto camp in’33/’34. HewasoneofthefirstactorsBrechthired. power, whenFriedrichwasstillayoungactor. Hewasacommunistwhoinconcentration Berliner Ensemble. in his careerinterruptions during his internment and during the war. After WWII, he was a member of the Friedrich Gnasse (1892–1958) was a German theatre and film actor active from the1920s until the 1950s, with 24 awonderfuloldactorwhomBrechtknewfrombefore’33, beforeHitlercameto — if youwanttocallitthat — than others - Carl Weber 75 he himself being a bourgeois. he himself being a bourgeois. —

WEBER: I mean, I didn’t feel like I was like Brecht, but I said, okay, if he doesn’t want to want to if he doesn’t okay, but I said, like I was like Brecht, I didn’t feel I mean, WEBER: I me, Why he picked to delegate someone. to do it himself or had He either had speak himself. don’t know. was the talk? How long audience. are 150 people in the : So there JAKOVLJEVIC pages at most. typewritten Two two pages. statement was about The Not very long. WEBER: Quite short really. for him in practice for Brecht to ask people to substitute it a common Was : JAKOVLJEVIC public appearances? WEBER: Yeah. in the notes in the Berlin and Brecht did which are published HARMAN: In two interviews brings him up himself in an he talks about Stanislavsky and his works, Frankfurt edition of in a laudatory way. Not anecdotal way. except in this particular He never openly praised Stanislavsky of course. That’s right WEBER: acknowledged Stanislavsky’s use- to read for that conference in which he statement which I had the top in praising him as the great inventor of new fulness in certain ways but did not go over Not at all. theatrical methods and so on and so forth. I read at least. America were the ones that spread to HARMAN: So Stanislavsky’s first writings later works at this point. somewhere that Brecht was receiving the what Brecht was Stanislavsky’s later work was much closer to Actually, That’s true. WEBER: talks about the importance of physi- in his later work, Stanislavsky, doing than his early stuff. and he gave what an actor is doing, which is another way to say what you see onstage, cal action, onstage than what the actor himself felt or identi- much more importance to the visible actions of course. fied onstage, Socialist with socialist realism. : It would be erroneous to conflate Stanislavsky JAKOVLJEVIC not the same as Stanislavsky by but it’s base, realism in theatre takes Stanislavsky as its any means. socialist realism in theatre schools and so on used strangely enough I mean, WEBER: No, written for a bourgeois Tzarist regime, under the Stanislavsky written mainly early Stanislavsky, audience and bourgeois actors : Did you discuss at the Berliner Ensemble issues of formalism and socialist : Did you discuss at the Berliner Ensemble JAKOVLJEVIC realism? As I of that kind. Brecht never liked to discuss theoretical questions not really. WEBER: No, well come to my theatre and when people came and asked him about epic theatre he said, said, see how I work. It was an enforced or : But socialist realism was not a theoretical question. JAKOVLJEVIC administratively prescribed way of making theatre or making art in general. or talked about it in the sense never openly discussed it, as far as I remember, WEBER: Brecht, my theory Basically when asked about it he said, of engaging with it and maybe contradicting it. not should change anything or adopt anything from, I don’t see any reason why I is realistic. My theatre is realistic. anything that’s not necessary. adopting mentioning Stanislavsky by name, in a real- It shows human behavior in a realistic way and social contradictions and development istic way. historians have tended to view it as yielding to HARMAN: Looking back on this production, Soviet pressures. Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

76 Carl Weber es. Scab, asit’scalledinEnglish. It’sDerLohndrücker inGerman it basically. Later, HeinerMüllerusedaspectsofBrecht’sversiontobuildhisownplay, The by theculturalfunctionaries. Hestruggledwiththematerialforawhileandthengaveupon would writeitthewayhewantedit, itwouldhavebeenimmediatelyattackedbythepartyand play abouthimandbegantowriteit. Henevergotfarwithitbecause, Isuppose, hefeltif a heroofworkastheycalledit. Brechtwasveryinterestedinthatguyandwantedtowritea colleagues, beatenuporknifed. LaterhewasmadeaheroinEastGermany,der Arbeit, aHeld heightened thenormwithhiswork. to buildthesebrickovensandwasverymuchhatedbyhiscolleaguesinthefactorybecausehe the war. There wasaparticularworkerinoneEastBerlinfactorywhodevelopedbetterway elevated thenormsinbuildingovenswheretheybakedbricksforconstructionworkafter in therepertoire. Hehimselfwastryingtowriteoneaboutapersonwho, shortlyafterthewar, WEBER: InsofarasBrechtfeltthatitwasnotnecessarybutgoodtohaveacontemporaryplay 27. 26. 25. far asIknow. ItwascalledDieHolländerbraut. actors somethingthatStrittmatterhadobserved. Actually, Strittmatterwroteoneotherplayas tioned thattoBrecht, andBrechtreferredtohimsaid “Strittmatter says” whenhetoldthe als. When hefeltthataparticularscenewasnotworkingthewayhopeditwould, hemen- WEBER: NottotheEnsemble, Iwouldsay, butofcoursehesaidwhatfeltduringrehears- the company? als. Sincehewasn’tpartoftheBerlinerEnsemble, didhebringanynewperspectivesto HARMAN: The authorofKatzgraben, Strittmatter,- waspresentformanyoftherehears Brecht wroteaboutthreeorfourscenesforitandthengaveuponit. using, notcopyingdirectly, butusingcertainaspectsofthecouplescenesBrechthadwritten. play basedonthatincident, onthatcharacter’sexperienceattime, based, tosomeextent that intentonwritingacontemporaryplay, buthe tried, atleast. tried towriteoneandnevergotveryfarwithit, obviously. Idon’tknow, maybehewasn’teven WEBER: BecauseBrechtdidn’tfindanyplayhelikedenough todoit. AsIsaid, hehimself HARMAN: Canyouthinkofanyreasonswhythereweren’t any othercontemporaryplays? staged attheEnsemble. WEBER: Prettygood, actually. BecauseitwasthefirstandonlycontemporaryplayBrecht HARMAN: DoyourememberwhatwasthereceptionofKatzgraben? It wasdirectedbyBennoBesson. was performedafterBrecht’sdeath, inthelate’50s. Itwasaflopactually. Itwasnotverygood. all sortsofproblemsarise. The wholestoryhappensinthefactoryshe’sworkingat. The play story ofawomanwhoisforcedtoworkinGermanyandthenfallslovewithGerman, and German warindustryduring World War II, mainlyfromFrance, Holland, andBelgium. It’sthe 26 Die Holländerbraut (The Dutchman’s Bride), 1960. English translation of this play was published in Theater in Leipzig. In 1989 Müller directed the work himself at the Deutsches Theater in Berlin. Carl Weber’s wife Inge Müller (1925–1966). The play premiered in 1958 directed by at the Günter Schwarzlose Städtisches or Der Lohndrücker to 10,000 marks (approximately $2,500 US Dollars in 1953). Democratic Republic instituted on 19 April 1950 and limited to 50 individuals per year with a cash prize of up his coworkers’ wages to be reduced (Rülicke 1997:83–90). Held der Arbeit was an award from the German ity. In doing so, Garbe became a In 1949, Hans Garbering oven rebuilt a factory under adverse conditions, thus saving the factory’s productiv- ItwouldbeascabinEnglish, Iwouldsay The Scab is Heiner Müller’s (1929–1995) first major piece for the stage, written withhis then Held der Arbeit but his actions also raised the production levels, thus causing 25 Hehadcertainproblemsatthetimeandwasattackedby The Battle: Plays, Prose, Poems (M 27 — Itwasaboutforeignworkersforcedintothe a working-classterminology. Müllerwrotethe — the guywholowerswag- uller 1989). Carl Weber 77

Ein who 29 Die Sorgen und die Macht die und Sorgen Die (1954, (1954, Circle Chalk Caucasian The (1959, dir. dir. (1959, Ui Arturo of Rise Resistible The

28 (1960, dir. Erich Engel). Erich dir. (1960, Dreigroschenoper The by John Millington Synge (1956, dir. Peter Palitzsch and Manfred Manfred and Palitzsch Peter dir. (1956, Synge Millington John by World Western the of Playboy The (1957, dir. Benno Besson); Besson); Benno Szechwan of Person dir. (1957, Good The

Karl von Appen (1900–1981) began his collaboration with Brecht and the Berliner Ensemble in 1953 with with 1953 in Ensemble Berliner the and Brecht with collaboration his began (1900–1981) Appen von Karl include Ensemble Berliner the with works notable other His . Katzgraben dir. Brecht); Brecht); dir. Wekwerth); Peter Palitzsch and Manfred Wekwerth); and Wekwerth); Manfred and Palitzsch Peter in Munich in Brecht met first He essayist. and author, playwright, German a was (1928–2003) Hacks Peter to 1960 From collaborated. never two the yet Brecht with to work 1955 in Berlin East to came then and 1947 play 1962 His Berlin. in Theater Deutsches at the dramaturg a as worked Hacks 1962 play is successful His most Theater. Deutsches the leave to him forced and officials from outrage sparked (1976). Goethe von Herrn den abwesenden über Stein Hause im Gespräch 28. HARMAN: Do you remember the rehearsals of the final scene? The stage they were on when they were on when The stage final scene? the rehearsals of the Do you remember HARMAN: staged? the scene was hap- Nothing very static. because the scene is staging it Brecht had certain difficulties WEBER: have a kind of evening the harvest and in the village celebrate except these people pens basically in the scene except is not much of a narrative So there drink. music and dance and of cheer and kind of end at this point. the two young people comes to a that the love story between Appen designed the set. HARMAN: Karl von WEBER: It was his first set for Brecht, this one. this one. set for Brecht, WEBER: It was his first any of the planning meetings? you in Were HARMAN: is giving all the necessary real- They talked about how to do a set which yes. WEBER: Sure, The small family farm, There are three farmer families. naturalistic. istic details but is not - The small farmer always has to get the trac and then the rich farmer. the middle-sized farm, that the problems of the land development is He needs it and one of tor from the rich farmer. be built which would make it the road to the next town; a new road to there is discussion of Some people are for the road and to market and so on. much easier to get their stuff to town, the road because he always brings stuff for the other The big farmer is not for others are not. because they have to ask him to of course, for it, farmers to town and back and gets money One of the very funny. funny, Very farmer’s wife. played the rich Weigel get it from town. funniest performances. on this production? Weigel Helene : Can you tell us more about working with JAKOVLJEVIC Weigel? Did you rehearse main rehearsal. but mainly I was only in the yes, Once in a while, WEBER: Not very often. : So what did you do on this production exactly? JAKOVLJEVIC to the actors Eventually do the model book and gave notes of course. notes, Take WEBER: sometimes. were still not directing yourself. You : JAKOVLJEVIC joined the company. I had just not at the time. WEBER: No, was there a play that you wanted to do but : Once you started directing, JAKOVLJEVIC a a social question, Or was there a question that you wanted to address in some way, couldn’t? get to do it? but you didn’t political question, sense of dealing a contemporary play in the television, even on WEBER: I didn’t see any play, I didn’t find any play did at the time. like Katzgraben with contemporary problems in the sense There were several plays by Peter Hacks, I felt was good enough that I wanted to do it. 29. Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

78 Carl Weber again toocriticalfortheauthoritiestolikethem. which means “Worries andPower,” theliteraltranslation. They werebothquitegoodplaysand WEBER: Yes ofcourse. And Hack’stwoplays, MoritzTassow andDieSorgen unddieMacht , JAKOVLJEVIC: Self-censorship. WEBER: That’s partofthereasoncourse. Exactly. weren’t abletoexpresswhattheythought, andthat’swhytheydidn’twriteanyplays. POHLMANN: You wouldhavetoquestionwhethertheartists, thewriters, ortheplaywrights JAKOVLJEVIC: And yousaytherewerenopressures? after thefinaldressrehearsal. Theywereneverabletoopenit. to writeoneplay, atheatreplay, aboutcontemporaryissues, andthatwasimmediatelyforbidden One ofthemwasaboutthe18thcentury, theotheronewasabout19thcentury. Hackstried did severaltelevisionplaysbyhim, butnoneofthemwerereallyaboutcontemporaryproblems. of Müller, hewasprobablythemostsuccessfulandwell-knownEastGermanplaywright. They was aplaywrightwhoquitesuccessfulandfamousinthe’50s, ’60s, ’70s, and’80s. Outside Egon Monk, Manfred Wekwerth, andCarl Weber. Anyone else? JAKOVLJEVIC: Sobasically, directing staffwasRuthBerlau, HansBunge, BennoBesson, WEBER: Wekwerth,yes. JAKOVLJEVICManfred Wekwerth?: And with thecompany. WEBER: BythetimeIarrivedin’52, EgonMonkand Bessonwerealreadyfull-scaledirectors JAKOVLJEVIC: And BennoBesson? then sherecommendedBungetoBrecht. Greifswald in West Germany. Idon’t rememberwhatplay. Berlausawitandlikedalotso WEBER: BerlaubroughtBungebecausehehaddoneaBrecht playattheUniversityof JAKOVLJEVIC: HansBunge? WEBER: Mainlyphotographing. JAKOVLJEVIC: RuthBerlauwasworkingonCaucasianChalkCircle? WEBER: Yes. There werealwaysassistantsworkingoneveryproduction. JAKOVLJEVIC : Brechtreferstohisassistantsas “directing staff”? statement ofwhatkindtheatreBrechtwantedtopursue. blatant exampleofBrecht’s ideaofwhattheatreshouldbe. Sothedecisiontodoplaywasa WEBER: No. Already in1952, weweretalkingaboutdoingtheplay. ChalkCircleisthemost JAKOVLJEVIC: Was thatwhyyoudidit? WEBER: Homecountry. JAKOVLJEVIC: And WEBER: Right. the yearStalindied, right? JAKOVLJEVIC: Let’sThe CaucasianChalkCircle turnto. Rehearsalsstartedinthefallof1953, The CaucasianChalkCircle Chalk CircleissetinGeorgia, Stalin’s — Carl Weber 79 is — in Meisterschüler a pious and stupid person — too. 30

directing (Barnett 2015:105). (Barnett directing Claus Küchenmeister (1930–2014) was a German novelist and screenwriter. In the early 1950s, while a gradu- a while 1950s, early the In screenwriter. and novelist German a was (1930–2014) Küchenmeister Claus a as Ensemble Berliner the at interned he Künste, der Akademie Deutsche Berlin’s of student ate very upset that Grusha arrives with the baby, a child out of wedlock or whatever, so when the so when wedlock or whatever, a child out of arrives with the baby, very upset that Grusha And what are you doing?” “Stop, Brecht said, over to her, brother went actor playing Grusha’s does not make any that nonsense, “That’s Brecht said, going to Grusha.” “I am the actor said, didn’t And Brecht the way you staged the scene.” that’s Brecht, “Well, The actor said, sense.” and I said, if that was so, the scene, me specifically because I worked on So he asked believe it. “Because of this and this And I said, “Why did I do that?” And he said, so.” it’s Brecht, “Yes, So we think I wrote that.” don’t “I forget about what he had written. And he told me to line...” rehearse this we won’t stop, right, “All He said, and he was a bit embarrassed. showed it to him, go over He rewrote the scene so that the brother could I have to rewrite the scene.” scene now. Now the dialogue justified that. to Grusha. What was the relationship among the directing staff? Did you work together? : JAKOVLJEVIC What was the dynamic within the group? Because I worked with remember any special way we dealt with the group. WEBER: I don’t let’s I had a different relation to him than with, D’Arc, of Jeanne Trial Besson as an actor in The Later he did. directed me at the time. He hadn’t Wekwerth. say, there competition? the relationship convivial or was Was : JAKOVLJEVIC WEBER: It was fairly convivial. “Brecht and his assistants discuss the : Hans Bunge wrote in his rehearsal diary: JAKOVLJEVIC rehearsals went The [...] America. during his exile in notes on the play that Brecht had written (Fuegi 1987:148). from 10am to 2pm” 30. : Did you argue? JAKOVLJEVIC Wekwerth. particularly fond of I know that at the very beginning I wasn’t WEBER: Not really. with him. But then he cast me in a show he was directing and after that I got along very well worked with who decided to stay Wekwerth I am the only actor were friends from then on. We eventually was a party member, Wekwerth He sent me a very angry telegram. Germany. West in a very high one. WEBER: We met every morning at 9, an hour before the rehearsal. During that meeting, we meeting, During that hour before the rehearsal. an met every morning at 9, We WEBER: had a little model stage of the Deutsches We before. discussed things that happened the day changes he or Brecht discussed with us, discussed, We Theater where we were performing. figures he could and sometimes he had little physically, planned to make in certain scenes, Blocking was for basically. discussed the blocking, We move around in the model like actors. Brecht absolutely essential. WEBER: Yes, and maybe Claus Küchenmeister and maybe Claus Yes, WEBER: : What was the process? What was the division of labor? What the process? What was : JAKOVLJEVIC And happened. to keep a log of what notes in rehearsals, Brecht asked me to take WEBER: blocking was kept The other scenes. he was rehearsing to rehearse scenes while sometimes rehearse a scene where Brecht asked me to one instance where remember specifically I intact. had blocked it. I rehearsed it the way Brecht the baby. house with Grusha is at her brother’s where the actor at a particular point rehearsal, brought back to Brecht’s When the scene was in the corner with the baby, who was sitting walked over to Grusha, who played the brother because his wife of a baby it was, and asked her what kind Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

80 Carl Weber stepped inandperformedit. the role. Shegotsickbecause ofthat. SherealizedBrechtdidn’tlikeherwork. Then Weigel WEBER: Ofcourse, we allknewshewashisloveratthetime. Reichelwasn’tvery goodin MATIC: Was thatknown? affair withher. Weigel didn’t likeheratall, ofcourse... which one, inaprovincialtheatre. Helikeditalotand hiredher. And shortlyafterhebeganan a verygoodactress. Hehadfoundherwhensheperformed inoneofhisplays, Idon’tknow WEBER: Well, yes. KätheReichel, sheplayedSaint JoaninThe Trial ofSaintJoan. Shewas mistress toanother. rehearsals. Hechangedtheactresswhoplayedgovernor’s wifebecausehemovedfromone JAKOVLJEVIC: JohnFuegimentionsthatBrechtwentthroughacoupleoflovers duringthe I knowhedid, butIneversawhim. Heneverdid itwhenwewerethere. scious ofhisbody, heneverwantedtobeseennaked, orhalf-nakedeven. Ineversawhimswim. I lovedtoswim, sowhenwewerethere, Ialwaysswaminthe lake. Brechtwasextremelycon- side ofthemainbuilding. Heworkedinthislittlehouseorthegardenwhichbelongedtoit. parties, youmightcallthem, wereheldthere. Brechthadalittlehouserightonthelaketo building waswhere Weigel livedandwhere, whenwewerethere, wewouldgettogether. Small were kindofhisguests, sotospeak. Actually, Imean, hishousewasrightonalakeandthemain And then, ofcourse, wewouldeatwithhim asked someofustocomeoutworkwithhimthere, thenwewouldstayforacoupleofdays. WEBER: No, no, no. When wewereinBukow, hehadhiscountryhouseinBukow, andhe JAKOVLJEVIC: Didheeverinviteyoutodinnerathishome? WEBER: Professional, right. JAKOVLJEVIC: Itwasstrictlyprofessional. WEBER: Notatall. We wereneverapartofhisprivatelife. JAKOVLJEVIC: Howclosedidheletyougettohisprivatelife? WEBER: No, no, no, no. LJUBIŠA MATIC: Didhegooutwithyou, foradrink? regarded himasafatherfigure. it. Butweneverthoughtinthosetermsdays. When Ilookback, Ithinkmostofus WEBER: — like — or JAKOVLJEVIC: HowclosewasBrechttohisdirectingstaff? Was helikeabossorfather cific whichwouldencouragehimtoentrustyouwithaproduction. be entrustedwithaproduction, butIdon’tthinkinrehearsalwithBrechtyoudidanythingspe- WEBER: We neverworkedwiththatinmind. We hoped, ofcourse, thateventuallywewould JAKOVLJEVIC: What didyouhavetodogetdirectyourownpiece? nephew oftheFatDuke. me inMotherCourage.in Then WEBER: Right. And sincehehiredmeasassistantdirectorandactor, Weigel immediatelyput Ensemble? JAKOVLJEVIC: like agoodteacher, ateacheryouadmiredandfatherfigure, youmightcall Caucasian ChalkCirclewasrehearsedinyoursecondyearwiththeBerliner Caucasian ChalkCircleIplayedseveralsmallroles. Iplayedthe — I mean, Weigel preparedthefoodanyway. We Carl Weber 81 in 1946 and and 1946 in Courage Mother to do it. Dessau’s music was to do it. 32 wife, Ruth Berghaus, wife, 31

in 1947. In 1948 Dessau returned to Berlin, where he continued to work with with work to continued he where Berlin, to returned 1948 Dessau Szechwan of Person in 1947. In Good The

for 2001). (Hennenberg Ensemble Berliner the a as trained She director. theatre and opera and choreographer German a was (1927–1996) Berghaus Ruth 1971, died, Weigel Helene year The 1953. and 1951 between Ensemble Berliner the intern at an was and dancer 234). 2015:186, (Barnett Ensemble the of Artisticbecame Berghaus Director Paul Dessau (1894–1979) was a German composer and conductor. In 1939 he moved to New York. After meet- After York. New to moved he 1939 In conductor. and composer German a was (1894–1979) Dessau Paul writ- Hollywood in living his earned he where California, Southern to him he followed 1943, in Brecht ing oratorio the and songs anti-fascist on worked Brecht he and Together movies. the for anonymously) (mostly ing for music incidental wrote He collaboration. large-scale first their , Miserere Deutsches used for the play. Berghaus rehearsed for a while, but then she didn’t show anymore. There but then she didn’t show anymore. Berghaus rehearsed for a while, used for the play. 32. 31. : Fuegi says that she attempted suicide. suicide. that she attempted : Fuegi says JAKOVLJEVIC any secret And Reichel didn’t make knew. everybody of course, knew, We once. Yes, WEBER: with each other. work with Brecht or influence our But it didn’t did Brecht. nor of it, I was wondering Brechtian play, Circle is a typical said that Caucasian Chalk : Since you MATIC Brecht detested making said played Grusha, the actress who Angelika Hurwicz, that if it is true theoretical statements. he He hated to discuss theory, He never discussed theory in rehearsals. Absolutely. WEBER: with either in rehearsal, He never mentioned the term Verfremdung never did it with actors. - imme and then usually, asked him, Sometimes actors his assistants. the actors nor with others, He felt actors would be inhibited. went into something else. the question, he dodged diately, at least. That’s my impression assistants read his theoretical writings? : Did you and other JAKOVLJEVIC we knew it. of course, WEBER: It was published, it amongst yourselves? : Did you talk about JAKOVLJEVIC Certainly not with the actors. but I don’t remember that. WEBER: Maybe we did, saw Brecht primarily as a director and playwright? You : JAKOVLJEVIC WEBER: Of course... : Did he mention gestic acting? JAKOVLJEVIC and such He mentioned to us that the gestus of such WEBER: He never used the word gestus. But he never mentioned it to the actors. actor was wrong or not perfect. with the pantomime in ? : Do you think gestus had anything to doCaucasian Chalk Circle MATIC was staged by Brecht when the Governor goes to church, of course, The first scene, WEBER: at the end was very much influenced by panto- And the big dance with a lot of pantomime. when the two soldiers are after her to He used pantomime in the wanderings of Grusha, mime. what pantomime many scenes were influenced by Brecht’s ideas about Obviously, find the child. he to it, But Brecht never referred should be done. should look like or about how pantomime in Berlin, Marcel Marceau performed of acting. never offered pantomime as a necessary form of Marceau watched a couple of rehearsals and Brecht mentioned his wonderful pantomime. the Ensemble. at the end? : Did Brecht devise the pantomime and dance MATIC he invited Paul Dessau’s WEBER: No, Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

82 Carl Weber In factafterthisread-through, ErwinGeschonneck, whoplayedtheJudge, asked, “Don’t read-through atthetable. Afterwards Brechtinvitedquestionsabouttheplay. Onereasonhe WEBER: No, ofcoursenot. OnlyoncethatIremember. ForTrumpets wehadone andDrums JAKOVLJEVIC: HansBungesaysthattheydidnotworkatthetableall. WEBER: Whenever theactorsdidn’tneeditanymore. MATIC: Butwhendidthathappen? WEBER: Brechtneverforcedactorstobeoffbook. MATIC: Doyourememberwhentheactorswereoffbook? actors toimprovise. it,” or “It’s notquitewhatitoughttobe, butlet’sdevelopit,” andsoon. Butheneverinvited the actordiditandBrechtsaid, “No, thatwon’twork,” orifhelikedit, he’dsay, “Yes, let’suse “Well, Brecht, don’tyouthinkthecharactershoulddo...?” “Don’t tellme, showme.” And then WEBER: Brechtwasnotinterestedinactorsimprovising. Exceptwhenanactoraskedhim, MATIC: What wastheroleofimprovisationduringrehearsalprocess? Grusha andSimonstooddownstageleftattheproscenium, watching. none ofthemaincharactersdanced. Azdak wassittingleftwiththemusiciansandchoruswhile ished thescenebasedtosomeextentonwhatBerghausproposed. The scenebecameveryshort, must havebeensomedisagreementwithBrecht. Idon’tknowwhat. Eventually, Brechtfin- 33. MATIC: Didhemakejokes? onstrated ascene. actor ifhehadtried. Extremely, extremelyfunny. And extremelyimpressivewheneverhedem- tried toprovokehimdemonstratebecausehewassofunny. Hecouldhavebeenawonderful WEBER: Hewassitting, always. Onceinawhile, rarely, hedemonstratedforactors. The actors MATIC: Didhestayseated? an actor. WEBER: Ineversawhimgettingangry, showing dissatisfaction openly, beingharshwith MATIC: Butwhatdoesthatmean, “He reallylikedactors”? liked actors. do. They acceptedhisauthority, absolutely. They admiredhim. And helovedactors, hereally WEBER: Idon’trememberactorscomplainingaboutwhatBrechttoldthemtodoornot MATIC: Were the actorseverdissatisfiedwithwhattheyweregivenbythedirector? to bringitbackintorehearsalandthenstartedworkfromscratch. WEBER: Ifhehadproblemswithascene, hedidn’trehearseit. Hewaitedaweekortwoweeks MATIC: Howdidhedealwithunsuccessfulrehearsals, withfailures, withlackofinspiration? answered, “Not atall, muchthebetter.” you thinktheplayisabitproblematicnow, sincewearedevelopingthe Volksarmee?” Brecht put theplayonwasbecauseinearly1950sbothGermanysstartedtodeveloparmies. Volksarmee (National People’s Army) was officially founded on 18 1956. January The FRG’s Bundeswehr (Federal Defense) was officially established on 5 May 1955. The GDR’s Nationale 33

Carl Weber 83

34 from 1946–1958. from Zeit der Theater

Fritz Erpenbeck was the editor in chief of the East German theatre journal theatre German East the of chief in editor the was Erpenbeck Fritz 34. WEBER: No, no. He was funny in the way he acted, the way he moved and spoke lines. Very Very moved and spoke lines. the way he acted, funny in the way he He was no. No, WEBER: if he comic actor, become a wonderful he could have I said, As But always in character. funny. to show what a particular especially he demonstrated sometimes, Yes, to do that. had decided or a gesticulation. How a walk looked be. was supposed to physical gestus rehearsals? document the the Ensemble meticulously Why did : MATIC recordings. They even made audio : JAKOVLJEVIC come back into rehearsal for several a scene might not rehearsed so long, WEBER: Because we He wanted to record it and of what had been done with the scene. needed a record We weeks. done when he saw the scene again, totally wiped out what he had previously He photograph it. was that he never fell back One of the reasons Brecht was a great director which was amazing. Usually better new solutions. He always saw it fresh and came up with on previous solutions. ones. ones or more interesting long play with lots of locations and we have a complex, : In Caucasian Chalk Circle MATIC scene changes. The singers and They all happened in the open. The scene changes were staged. WEBER: things came in on the revolve or For scene changes, musicians sat in a box downstage right. stagehands. were pushed in on wagons or carried in by when the scene changes were rehearsed? there a special time in rehearsals Was : MATIC began to incorporate the transitions between WEBER: From the very beginning Brecht the scenes. they were not projected? The scene titles, : MATIC the convention The audience accepted They were not; they were part of the scenes. WEBER: coming from the The prologue says that these guys are of doing things like that in the show. And then the guy who was that was established. So, city to do the show with the village people. “Now and said, came in the leader of this group, who was in the prologue Azdak, later to play some text or whatever he said, are singing these...” We “I am... and we are going to do the play” and that’s how the show started took their places there, Then they went to the box, like that. it was never It was unusual, had any problems with that. The audience never after the prologue. from what peo- The play itself was very strange, at least not in Germany. done in other theatres, ple were used to in the theatre. The audience never objected? : MATIC who was the main negative critic Fritz Erpenbeck, Some critics did. not at all. WEBER: No, that he was in exile in the and I didn’t know until much later, People didn’t know, of Brecht. a German literary journal published in , edited Das Vod He Soviet Union during the Nazi period. and Erpenbeck always wanted them changed. Brecht submitted several texts to Das Vod Moscow. about it. either print it the way he had written it or forget Brecht wrote back very angrily, When he returned to the There was a longstanding antipathy between Erpenbeck and Brecht. as well as the editor of a theatre journal. critic, Erpenbeck became the leading theatre GDR, Erpenbeck constantly criticized Brecht’s productions. Erpenbeck constantly criticized Brecht’s productions. there previews or tech rehearsals? Were : JAKOVLJEVIC Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

84 Carl Weber MATIC: Doyourememberanypropused intheshowthatwasimportanttoBrecht? maybe ithelpedoverall. he likedtheshowverymuch. This didn’tchangethenegativeattitudeofsome critics, but lower area, andthenatthe endheapplaudedenormously, obviouslywanting ittobeknownthat he veryrarelydid, hewasquiteoldatthetime, he actuallyfellasleep, hewasinthemiddle problems withCaucasianChalkCirclebeforetheopening, Pieckcameandsawtheshow, which the presidentofGDR, whoforwhateverthereasonloved Brecht. When therewerebig by thePartyandespeciallyculturalfunctionaries WEBER: — JAKOVLJEVIC: But, therewasanawarenessthat about iteither. WEBER: Brechtnevertalkedaboutit. And weamongst ourselves, orwhatIheard, nevertalked JAKOVLJEVIC: Never? WEBER: Nevertalkedaboutit. members oftheEnsembleconsiderpoliticalpressuresthatyoumightencounter? JAKOVLJEVIC::: To whatextentwas thereself-censorshipintheBerlinerEnsemble?Did communism, andhismusicwasinnowayformalisticorwhatever. his music. DessauwassoupsetthathemadeaspeechabouthowloyaltotheGDR, to into. Ididn’ttalk. There wasoneEastBerlinmusiccriticwhoattackedDessaupersonallyfor another theatreinEastBerlin. After apreview, therewasadiscussionthatImanagedtoget views werepackedwithpeoplefrom West Berlin. Iwasn’tyetatBerlinerEnsemble, Iwasat Berlin, itwasforbiddenbytheauthorities. The productionneverofficiallyopened. Thepre- When Brecht’soperaThe Trial ofLuculluswasperformedatStaatsoper, thestateoperainEast and Dessau. OneofthereasonswasDessauaverycontroversialfigureinEastGermany. and thenDessaurewroteit. Iwasneverpartofthosediscussions. Noonewas, exceptBrecht WEBER: Yeah, exactly. BrechtsometimesdiscussedwithDessaucertainaspectsofthemusic, JAKOVLJEVIC: And thesetwasdoneaheadoftime? WEBER: Fromthebeginning. The musicwaswrittenbythetimewestartedrehearsals. MATIC: And atwhatstageinrehearsalsdidyouhavethemusic? for that. in GermanybeforeHitlerandcontinuedthatlater. HewasoftenattackedinEast Germany atonal tosomeextent. Hewasobviouslyverymuchapartofthemodernmusicmovement Germany atthetimeallmusicwasmodeledafterSovietUnion. Dessau’smusicwas WEBER: SomecriticsattackedthemusicbyDessau. They saiditsoundedawful. InEast MATIC: What aboutthemusic? there tomakenotesabouthowtheaudienceresponded. WEBER: Sometimesfive, six, seven, eight...withtheaudience, andwithBrecht. We hadtobe JAKOVLJEVIC: SotherewasapreviewaftertheGeneralprobe? Critics hatedit. declared final. So, actually, abitofthepreviewidea, whichBrechtintroducedinGermany. eral rehearsal. Then theplaysweredoneaspublicperformances, scheduledbutwithoutbeing WEBER: Tech rehearsalswithoutanaudience, whatinGermanyiscalledaGeneralprobe, agen- an awarenessthattheEnsembleandBrecht’sworkwasnotparticularly welcomed — — with theexceptionof Wilhelm Pieck, Carl Weber 85 - - I believe, but I am not sure. Brecht wanted but I am not sure. I believe, 35 , San Francisco Actor’s Workshop, 1963. 1963. Workshop, Actor’s Francisco San , Circle Chalk Caucasian The Fischer, — Figure 3. Figure Estate) Kranzler (Courtesy Hank of Weber. Carl by Directed pub- Times New York

Eduard “Eddy” Fischer (1916–1992) was the Berliner Ensemble’s innovative theatre sculptor, mask maker, and and maker, mask sculptor, theatre innovative Ensemble’s Berliner the was (1916–1992) Fischer “Eddy” Eduard 2015:133). (Barnett master prop 35. WEBER: Props were enormously important to Brecht. He had a wonderful prop master, who prop master, He had a wonderful important to Brecht. Props were enormously WEBER: loved whom Brecht props, constructed the props to look like real things, not “props,” quote unquote. He wanted them to look like He wanted them to quote unquote. “props,” not look like real things, the props to before they came used for quite a while which had been you know, or whatever, tools pieces, into production. And the lighting? : MATIC Brecht hated mood light- No mood lighting whatsoever. bright. very bright, Very WEBER: observe the smallest details of should see the smallest details onstage, He felt the audience ing. a performance. : Night was not suggested? MATIC there or the actor playing that It was done by having a moon hanging WEBER: Not by light. it was fully lit. It was never dark, he has to grope or whatever. in the rehearsals? in front of the audience that did not happen : Did anything happen MATIC the end of at WEBER: Once, the actor the wedding scene, Friedrich playing the priest, came who drank a lot, Gnasse, into the wedding scene pretty Instead of exiting into drunk. he climbed the wings stage left, The audience into the audience. Brecht was loved it. laughed, furious. : Let’s fast- JAKOVLJEVIC to your 1963 forward 10 years, San Actor’s Workshop Francisco production of Caucasian Chalk How did that come Circle. about? WEBER: In ’61 I moved to Front-page news in West. the German newspapers because of the political climate of the The period. Pittsburgh, I suddenly got a letter and then a phone call from lished something about it too. When I Could I come and stage a Brecht play? now Carnegie Mellon. Tech, from Carnegie “The play is And I said, .” Reich Third and Misery of the planned to do Fear “We they said, arrived, a favor I proposed Puntila, pointless because the reason Brecht wrote it doesn’t exist anymore.” played Auberjonois who was in his final year as a student, René ite of mine and they agreed. The perfor played Matti. a leading television actor, who became Puntila and Frank Conrose, Review came to Pittsburgh and wrote the Saturday Henry Hewes from mance went very well. I met first time. for the York I went to New After Pittsburgh, a glowing review [Hewes 1962]. Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

86 Carl Weber JAKOVLJEVIC: Youdirected had toreworkthetranslationmakefullmeaningclearaudience. literally. NotknowingthatcertainwordshaddoublemeaningsinGermanhemissedthings. I WEBER: Ihadtobecausetherewerealotofmistakes. Minorones, becauseBentleytranslated JAKOVLJEVIC: Didyoureworkanyofit? WEBER: Bentley’s. JAKOVLJEVIC: Which translationdidyouworkwith? WEBER: Maybe. JAKOVLJEVIC: Hemust’vebeenkidding. prayed. Hewasnotreligiousatall, soseeinghimpraywasveryfunny. We werewatchingfromtheentrancetofoyerandHerbBlauactuallykneeleddown ment oftheturntable. We wereallveryconcernedthattheturntablewouldn’tworkproperly. hands movingtheturntable, itwasgreat, muchmoreinterestingthanthemechanicalmove- WEBER: They builtaturntablebuttherewasnomachinery;itpushedbyactors. All those JAKOVLJEVIC: Didyouhaveaturntable? worked wellenoughtogetmeNew York. had averyclearideaofhowthescenesshouldlook, howBrechttoldmetheyshouldlook. It Berliner Ensemble. BlauhadseentheEnsemble. SoIhadnoproblemswiththeactors. And I WEBER: Notthatmuchactually. The Actor’s Workshop wastosomeextentbasedonthe Here thingsweredifferent. Howbigofanadjustmentwasthat? JAKOVLJEVIC: At theBerlinerEnsembleyouhadstate-of-the-artproductionconditions. Francisco Actor’s Workshop.San the WEBER: And JulesIrving. They lovedTheTutor andinvitedmetodoCaucasianChalkCircleat JAKOVLJEVIC: And that’s whenyoumetHerbBlau? and 5]. played theGovernor. Hesentustheprogramandsomeimagesfromyourproduction[figs. 4 JAKOVLJEVIC: IwasintouchwiththeatredirectorM.K. Raina, who inyourproduction there, openair, outside, withawonderfultreeinthecenter. Delhi andrecommendedtohimthatheshouldinvitemedo CaucasianChalkCircle. Ididit had beentransferredtoNewDelhi, attheembassythere, andhemettheheadofatheatrein and hesawtheproductionlovedit, andtalkedtome afterwards. A coupleofyearslater, he German Consulate, aGermandiplomatattheConsulate ofGermany, bythenameofZitron WEBER: That cameaboutbecause, whenIdiditinSan Francisco, therewasaguyinthe Drama inNewDelhi. do of thatatthetime. ButbasedonHewes’sreview, StanfordinvitedmeintheSummerof’63to Hewes againthereandherecommendedmeasadirectortoseveralproducers. Nothingcame 37. 36. Humanities Center. of TAPS faculty Jisha Menon, in the fall of 2011 he was an Arts Writer/Practitioner in Residence at Stanford in the National School of Drama, from which he graduated in 1970 with a Best Actor award. At the invitation Maharaj Krishna Raina is a prominent theatre actor and director in India. He met Carl Weber while a student Brecht’s 1950 adaptation of The Tutor. 37 36

Der Hofmeister, a 1774 play by Jacob Lenz. Caucasian ChalkCircleagainin1968theNationalSchoolof Carl Weber 87 , National School of Drama, New Delhi, 1968. Directed Directed 1968. Delhi, New Drama, of School National , Circle Chalk Caucasian The

by Carl Weber. (Courtesy Raina)M.K. of Weber. Carl by WEBER: Let me have a look...I haven’t seen that in ages [laughing]. : How did you adjust the staging to this outdoor theatre without a turntable? JAKOVLJEVIC they’d done in the same stage area a play by Before I did this, There was this big tree. WEBER: And then it just kind of burned you know. They had built for Lorca a little village really, Lorca. actually. quite well, For the prologue and then it worked down. : Did you try to adapt Caucasian Chalk Circle to Indian circumstances? JAKOVLJEVIC Figure 4. Program for Program 4. Figure Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

88 Carl Weber 1968. Directed by Carl Weber. of M.K. Raina) (Courtesy Figure 5. The Caucasian Chalk Circle, National School of Drama, New Delhi, came toseetheshow. WEBER: Yes. Igotsomereviews. They wereverygood, actually. IheardthatIndiraGandhi feedback onthisproduction? JAKOVLJEVIC: Didyougettoreadanyreviewsthatwerepublishedthereordid eventually Brechtcameinandattendedrehearsalsthenchanged manythings. The proj and adaptation with Hauptmann, andBesson tosomeextent. Eventually, Officerasapotentialprojectandworked onthetranslation hepicked TheRecruiting model forothertheatres. SoheaskedallofustoreadcomediesfromtheRestoration period. ’50s, Brechttalkedalot aboutestablishingatraditionofcomedyattheBerlinerEnsemble asa from Molière’scomedies, orShakespeare’scomedies, orFarquharforthatmatter. Inthemid- which isbasicallytheGerman word forcomedy. ButaGermanLustspielisvery different that’s aboutit. Goethedidn’twriteanycomedy. HewrotewhattheycallLustspielinGerman, maybe oneofCarlSternheim’scomedies, perhapsTheSnob [1914],[1910]. orUnderpants And von Kleist’sBroken Pitcher [1808], thenGerhartHauptmann’sTheBeaver Coat[1893], and There areonlyaboutthreegreatcomediesinthewholehistory ofGermantheatre:Heinrich comic tradition, comparedtoEnglishorFrenchtheatre what hecalled “establishing atraditionofcomedy” in Germany. Germantheatrehasalimited ect wasinitiatedbyBrechtandElizabethHauptmann. At thetime, Brechtwasinterestedin rehearsals, so WEBER: BrechtandBesson, whoactuallygotcreditasdirector. Brechtwasinmostofthe HUNTER: Who weretheprincipalcollaboratorsonTrumpets? andDrums Trumpets, andDrums haddonetheyearbefore. in ’54. We openedtheseasonwithDonJuan fromMolièrewhichBennoBesson, whodirected WEBER: No, notreally. Itwasdonein’55. We movedintothe Theater-am-Schiffbauerdamm Officer, wastheseasonopenerin1955forBerlinerEnsemble. HUNTER: Trumpets andDrums Trumpets, andDrums The Recruiting Brecht’sadaptationofGeorgeFarquhar’s — to agreatextent — it wasdirectedbyBrecht. Bessonstartedtostageitand — or Russiantheatreforthatmatter. masks forperformances. tradition inIndiaofhaving actually. Becauseoftheancient they workedquitewonderfully, WEBER: We usedmasks, and tional Indiantheatre? include someelementsoftradi- JAKOVLJEVIC: Didyoutryto actors aswell. anymore. Itdidn’tbotherthe eventually thatdidn’tbotherme a Brechtiankindoftheatre. But shall Ido.” They aresousedto teller. So, Isaid, “My God, what duction, becauseithadastory- amazingly likeaBrechtpro- in NewDelhi. And thatlooked classical Indianplaysomewhere took metosee, supposedly, a WEBER: When Iarrived, they - Carl Weber 89 - [Trumpets and Drums] is, to a great extent, Hauptmann and to a great extent, and Drums] is, [Trumpets ! Baal is half Woyzeck

vants witness the Declaration of Independence being read. That happens at about three points being read. vants witness the Declaration of Independence and particularly American Revolution the choice of the Can you tell us more about in the play. the Battle of Bunker Hill as subject matter? they Hauptmann began to work on the adaptation, when Brecht and WEBER: Originally, The original title Brecht had in mind for Succession. of War wanted to leave it in the Spanish Brecht Originally, in Belgium. of Succession was fought War The the piece was Brussels’ Lace. the action I don’t know who came up with the idea to relocate intended to leave it as it was. America than Brecht ever did. who spent much more time in Maybe Hauptmann, of the play. und Trompeten The text of Pauken not Brecht. and It’s interesting that you say that because looking at the preliminary sketches MURPHY: 6 and 7], Appen’s design drawings; figs. of Karl von production photographs [projecting slides It still looks like a Restoration play. this doesn’t look like a Brecht production. reflected to some extent, Appen to do a set which, asked Brecht That was intentional. WEBER: looked very Every production of Brecht’s at the Ensemble Restoration comedy conventions. didn’t know they were all by the same company and If you saw the productions and different. you wouldn’t even know. in most cases at least Brecht himself, by the same director, design draw- Appen’s I wanted to ask you about this scene [showing him one of von MURPHY: It presents one of the most interesting qualities of this pro- 7]. ings for the production; fig. in the use There’s a flatness It’s very presentational. which is the Restoration style. duction, difficult to of parallel lines and the costumes create a physical envelope for the bodies that is Why and the petticoats; for the men it’s the uniforms. For the women it’s the corsets escape. was this particular style of comedy appealing to Brecht? it was As I said, sets and that was intentional. The set reflects Restoration comedy WEBER: heard of a pro- I never intended to be part of this project of establishing a tradition of comedy. There may have and Drums. duction of a Restoration comedy in Germany before Trumpets but I never heard for instance, Country Wife productions of [Wycherly’s] at some time, been, (1836), Georg Büchner’s play, was well regarded was well regarded Georg Büchner’s play, Lena Leonce and (1836), My sense was that HUNTER: theatre. in the history of German as a comedy Oh yes. WEBER: it? he ever think of staging in that play? Did Brecht interested Was HUNTER: There were no concrete . Woyzeck He was interested in Büchner’s know of. WEBER: Not that I an interesting play, occasionally as a wonderful but he mentionedWoyzeck , plans to do Woyzeck play and all that. HUNTER: Well WEBER: Yeah, absolutely. WEBER: Yeah, you brought into the project? When were HUNTER: and played the Pickpocket assistant for Besson for the production WEBER: I was the directing it was an interesting to think of it, come And of course, the court scene. in in the last scene, a and to do in East Germany War, the most heated period of the Cold It was time to do this. well was unusual. American Revolution and the Constitution as play which kind of glorifies the Plume reads to Judge Barons the Declaration of I mean the beginning of the scene when thing to do at the time. Independence: that was quite an interesting American Revolution com- Can you say more about that? Introducing the CIARA MURPHY: where ser particularly in the moments of the play pletely changes the tone of the adaptation, Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021 90 Carl Weber (From of Akademie der Kunst, Dieckmann 1971; courtesy Berlin) Figure 7: Design drawing by Karl von Appen for (From of Akademie der Kunst, Dieckmann 1971; courtesy Berlin) Figure 6: Design drawing by Karl von Appen for 39. 38. 1951, where he remained until 1961. Heinz (1925–1999) was a German Schubert actor who was invited by Brecht to join the Berliner Ensemble in actress and costume designer, she was also one of the custodians of the Brecht estate. Maria Barbara Brecht-Schall, stage name Barbara Berg (1930–2015), was the daughter of Brecht and Weigel. An Trumpets and Drums, 1955. Trumpets and Drums, 1955. was theforceofthatparticular men arecreatedequal.” What acters twicereadthewords: “all Trumpets thechar andDrums the world, isunstoppable. In mation, oncecirculatedin both instancesthattheinfor MURPHY: — Galileo isreadingthe When theLittleMonkin moment? WEBER: Which Brecht’s play. of Galileo’stwodialoguesin me oftheactualdissemination of Independence. Itreminded directly fromtheDeclaration play, oneofthecharactersreads MURPHY: At onepointinthe gest partsheplayed. parts, butPegeenwasthebig- and acoupleofothersmall in and afterthatsheplayedPegeen played inTrumpets andDrums WEBER: Yeah, shedid. She continue acting? JAKOVLJEVIC: DidBarbara and ’90s. in Germanythe1970s, ’80s he becameaveryfamousactor not thatfamousbuteventually that timehewasyoungand actor isHeinzSchubert. vant girlofMelinda. And the She playedLucy. She’s theser Barbara, Brecht’s daughter. slide projection;fig. 8] Thisis WEBER: [Referringtonew miliar atthe time. something verynewandunfa- in Germany, soitestablished of anyproductionthatkind Playboy of the Westernof Playboy World Yes. Itseemsin — 39 At 38 -

- - Carl Weber 91 Trumpets and and Trumpets (songs) based on texts by Brecht in 1950, but the two did not col- not did two the but 1950, in Brecht by texts on based (songs) lieder Figure 8. Maria Barbara Brecht-Schall and Heinz Schubert in Heinz and Brecht-Schall Barbara Maria 8. Figure Archive) (Courtesy1955. Bertoltof Brecht Ensemble Berliner , Drums they formed this collaboration or what may have brought them they . Trompeten und Pauken —

Do you remember why 40

Rudolf Wagner-Régeny (1903–1969) was a Hungarian–born German composer, conductor, and pianist who col- who pianist and conductor, composer, German Hungarian–born a was (1903–1969) Wagner-Régeny Rudolf in Essen in Grillo-Theater the at productions opera of series a on Neher Caspar designer Brecht’s with laborated 10 wrote actually Wagner-Régeny 1929. laborate on a project until project a on laborate together on this? 40. said this was a glorious period of said this was a glorious but the middle-class revolution, beyond now we have gone on of course. that, said once that You HUNTER: no one could really criticize this move because the critique it was was not on the surface, too implicit. No one could WEBER: Right. take offense officially. And that didn’t hap- HUNTER: or pen on the level of critics, responses in the press? Nobody no. no, WEBER: No, The play was quite suc- attacked. cessful critically at the time. HUNTER: It was? it was. Yeah, WEBER: It was great fun. Definitely. The whole production was very who played Regine Lutz, funny. was superb in that role. Victoria, before [he Wagner-Régeny HUNTER: Brecht had never worked with the composer [Rudolf] any prior con- I couldn’t find any information about and Drums]. did the music for Trumpets wrote a piece: it was a setting of one of Brecht’s Wagner-Régeny tact between them except that poems. citation, both the Declaration of the Declaration both citation, American and the Independence in 1955? War Revolutionary it was As I said, WEBER: that Brecht moved remarkable American the whole story to the the war and that he introduced text and all Declaration into the pretty gutsy I think it was that. that at the time because certainly the East was not a favorite of German Party or government. yes officially, Of course, Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

92 Carl Weber by afunctionaryoftheSocialistUnitaryParty, andbythecritics. Club inEastBerlin. Itwaspublishedaswellandthenitincredibly, viciouslyattacked Peasant Revolutionofthe16th century. it wasveryfunnyactually. ItwasverycriticalofFaust. ItshowedFaustinthecontextof because ofthat. They felthisversionofFaust wasdetrimental, wasaparodyofFaust. Itwasnot; an operaheplannedtodo, andhegotintoalotoftroublewiththeauthoritiesEastBerlin I’m busy.” EislerwasnotinBerlinatthetime. EislerhadwrittenthisadaptationofFaust for the operaofPuntilaattime. Dessauprobablywouldhavesaid “I havenotimetodoit; done WEBER: I’mnotsureifBrechttalkedtoDessauorEislerabouttheproduction. Hehadjust Hanns Eisler’s42. Hanns 41. WEBER: IdidtheplayacoupleofyearslaterinLübeck West Germany of itsinceyouwereinvolvedintheproduction? HUNTER: We founda1957recordingof Wagner-Régeny’s score. Haveyouheardrecordings number ofyears. and Eislerwrotethemusicforthat. HeeventuallycamebacktotheGDR, butafterquitea inFrancewithSimoneSignoretand the 1950sofTheCrucible Yves Montandinthemainparts, France,. hedidthefilmmusicforSartre’sadaptationofTheCrucible There wasafilmmadein time hethoughtaboutleavingtheGDRforgood. Hewasin Austria andFranceforawhile. In Deutschland, wroteaviciousattackoftheplayandEislerleftforParis, then Vienna, andatthe German productionofit dier’s loveislike, tosome extenttryingtocureherofinfatuationwithhim. At theendof WEBER: Well that’sthesceneinprison. And Plumesingsitfor Victoria, tellingherwhatasol- JAKOVLJEVIC: Maybeitwouldhelpifyoudescribedthescene? gestus ofthesecharacters? understand [Weber 1994]. You’re sayingthatthesesongsareimportant momentstoconveythe quite accuratelysaysthatgestusisapromiscuousterminBrecht’s writingandit’sdifficultto MURPHY: Canyousaymoreaboutgestus?Inaninterview hedidwithyou, Tony Kushner scenes andhadafunctioninthescene. was toachievetheappropriategestusforthesemomentsbecause allofthesesongswerein the productionitself WEBER: Obviously, theinterestof Wagner-Régeny wastomakeitsoundpretty. Onstage pronounced intermsofthesoundsong? HUNTER: Canyoudescribehowthatdifferencemightsoundonstage? What becomesmore sung onstageandmoreinterestedinthewaymusicwaswrittenby Wagner-Régeny. ent actor. Somehow, therecordinghereisprobablylessinterestedin the gestusofsongsas instance, theguywhosangsongjustnowisnotactoritonstage. It’sadiffer WEBER: Hereit’s Wagner-Régeny obviouslywhorecordedthiswithsomeoftheactors. For HUNTER: Howwasitdifferent? WEBER: Well onethingisthewaytheysingitherenotexactlysangonstage. through yourmindwhenyouhearthis? HUNTER: Let’shearoneofthesongs[playstracksfromrecording]. What goes Aufbau eventually had to withdraw the book from circulation. across German-speaking Europe from 1524–1525. The German Peasants’ War was a popular uprising, inspired by changes caused by the Reformation, which spread Caucasian ChalkCirclewithDessautheyearbefore, orDessauwasinvolvedincomposing Johann Faust was published by Aufbau-Verlag in 1952, but due to the heated political debate, — that wasnotthemainconcernofBrecht. The mainconcern ofBrecht — and usedthesamescoreinLübeck. 41 There wasareadingofEisler’sFaust attheCultural 42 The partypaper, Neues — the first West — in - Carl Weber 93 - - - how shall — and said, and said, that was the that was the — — Plume was a very laid back, back, Plume was a very laid 43 by the way he carries his body, his body, by the way he carries it seems illogical to have such — —

44 creates a specific behavior pattern for a particular moment creates a specific behavior — develops very convincing male behavior patterns. develops very convincing male behavior patterns. — marrying her and then, of course, becoming the inheritor of Balance’s becoming of course, marrying her and then, as a director working with the actors — — being a soldier —

sober-headed look at love and why people are attracted to each other. He’s obviously not are attracted to each other. look at love and why people sober-headed —

Dieter Knaup (b. 1929) had a long acting career at the Berliner Ensemble, which he joined in 1954. in joined he which Ensemble, Berliner the at career acting long a had 1929) (b. Knaup Dieter stu- former Weber’s Carl interviewsthese of by directed Some discussed, being play the from scenes with began short from scenes shown just had Hunter particularthis Michael and interview In dents. portion, Murphy Ciara Drums and actors. student featuring , Trumpets Well, what is “gestus”? Gestus is basically the way an actor “gestus”? what is Well, a feminine character take on a breeches role and go to the officers dressed as a man. I wanted and go to the officers dressed as a man. a feminine character take on a breeches role of the gestus from the beginning: she is forth- the actor to understand that that was part the character is Otherwise, and parcel of the character. and those traits are part sensible, right, built into the gestus in the how was that So how do you build that into the gestus? Or, uneven. original production? she was a very with her father in the play, course, of when you met her first, Well WEBER: Playing She was definitely a very tough girl. she wants. very intent on achieving what tough girl, a soldier later and Drums was the last completed work but Trumpets Correct me if I’m wrong, MURPHY: Revolution being the key change in this American spoke with you about the We by Brecht. American Revolution is just one of the many instances in but the adaptation of Farquhar’s play, America. Brecht’s writing about lazy person who was in the army because it was the easiest way to make a living without hav- in the army because it was the easiest way lazy person who was but he played person himself, Knaup was quite an attractive of work to do. ing a particular kind In the final because he didn’t want to exert himself. a character who was in the army basically 43. 44. attracted to her because he’s sexually driven. She is, on the other hand, very much attracted to very on the other hand, She is, attracted to her because he’s sexually driven. But he is not. him for that reason. I say HUNTER: Was she played as quite a naive character? she played as quite a naive Was HUNTER: a young girl who had never had any an innocent person, Yes, WEBER: I wouldn’t say naive. becoming she started made up her mind to get him, when she But then, love affair before. practical and nearly a masculine person. extremely determined, For me MURPHY: vated Plume to marry Victoria in the end. Brecht’s adaptation of the play took a very in the end. Victoria vated Plume to marry scene when Plume decides to marry Victoria and leave the army, it is quite obvious that this deci and leave the army, Victoria scene when Plume decides to marry but basically by the idea that it would be a com of her, sion was not so much driven by deep love fortable life for Plume riches. Balance was established as a very rich man during the production and that was what moti Balance was established as a very rich man during the production and that riches. year when the so-called People’s Army was officially announced and established Army was officially announced People’s year when the so-called “Just the And Brecht said, play?” is not the right moment for this kind of “Don’t you think this opposite — [all] the better.” and props costumes, uses his voice, of all these elements creates gestus. The composite character. in a scene for a particular particular characters? talk specifically about the gestus of these Can you MURPHY: played by an actor called Dieter Knaup. Plume was Well WEBER: the play she gets him and he leaves the army, which is another interesting thing at the moment thing at the moment is another interesting which the army, gets him and he leaves the play she play rehearsals of a new the very well, I remember when the play is done...because historically - and then immedi the play around a table, with one reading of at the Ensemble usually started actor who the of the play, After the reading moving and acting. had actors onstage ately Brecht play Brecht whether the He asked began. before the rehearsals left the company played Balance an army in East Germany just when we built at this moment was a bit awkward Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

94 Carl Weber knew mequitewell. the fairly importantmomentinGermanyandwaswrittenabout allthenationalnewspapers, Berlin wallwasbuilt, whentheyclosedtheborderstoEastGermany. Ourdecisionwasa WEBER: PeterPalitzschandIbothdecidedtostayin West Germany atthetimewhen what wasthejourney? MURPHY: Where didyoumovefromthere?Becauseyou’re here, atStanfordrightnow. So first timeIdirectedoutsideoftheEnsemble, andoutsideof thetutelageofBrecht. WEBER: Well, Ihaddirectedbefore, reallyin West Germany. Trumpets wasnotthe andDrums dently, andnolongerunderthetutelageofBrecht. sense, it’s theendofBrecht’s output, butthebeginningforyouworkingasadirectorindepen- MURPHY: thought whenhewasveryyoung. Declaration ofIndependencewasveryimportantintheplay, IthinkitreflectswhatBrecht to. As well, Isuppose, theideaof American democracy. InsofarasinTrumpets the andDrums everything waspossible. There wasadventure. You couldmakelotsofmoneyifyouknewhow WEBER: They feltthat America, incontrasttoGermanyatthetime, wasacountrywhere using America asasetting? What wasthebasisforthatcontinuingfascination? What washetryingtoworkthroughin MURPHY: “Make-believe America” isacontinuousthematicreferencepointinBrecht’s work. WEBER: Ofcourse. EverychildreadKarlMay. And BrechtreadKarlMay. JAKOVLJEVIC: DidyouorBrechtreadKarlMay? of themostreadGermanauthors. May bookstoagreatextentestablishedtheimageof America Germanshad, andheisstillone self livingin America andgoingalloverthecountry, andthe Wild West specifically. TheKarl graphical books, there’s acharactercalledOld Shatterhand, whichissupposedlyKarlMayhim- the Chiefof Apache Indians. Inhisbooks, whichhewrotesometimesasseeminglyautobio- without everhavingbeenin America. Hecreatedaveryfamouscharacter, Winnetou, whois have beensoldthantheBible May, whowasthegreatestbest-sellingauthorofalltimeinGermany which wasofcoursenotnecessarilyaverycorrectimage America. A Germanwriter, Karl WEBER: The Germanimageof America atthattimewasderivedfrommoviesandsongs, set in America pre-dateBrechtgoingto America andbeinginexile America forsixyears. MURPHY: Canyoutalkabout “make-believe America”? Becauseofcoursealothisworks image ofChicago. of mythicalChicago tury. Iheardhimsaythatmanytimes. Hissecondplay, IntheJungle ofCities, wasaboutakind days. CharlieChaplinwasafavorite, andinhisopinionwasthegreatestactorof20thcen- intrigued aboutthecountry. Heloved American movies, whichweresilentmoviesinthose WEBER: When Brechtwasayoungpersonheextremelyattractedby America and 45. work, and directed Waiting for Godot and Harold Pinter’s the premiere of Edward Albee’s Alan Schneider (1917–1984) was an influential American theatre director whose many productions included Frankfurter Allgemeine andothers. Peoplein America knewaboutthat, and Alan Schneider Trumpets, andDrums performedin1955, isthelastcompletedBrechtplay. Ina The Caucasian Chalk Circle at the Arena Stage in 1961. 45 — We metfirstinPariswhenhecametothe ThéâtredesNationsinParis, very differentfromwhatChicagowasreallylike, butitwashisidea, his Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf and the American premieres of Samuel Beckett’s — wrote inthelate19thcenturyandearly20thabout America The Birthday . HeParty was a consistent American advocate of Brecht’s — more KarlMaybooks Carl Weber 95 - The partly because of the size partly because of the — because I felt I do Puntila because I I decided to — when he moved to Tulane, and then and Tulane, to moved he when Review Drama Tulane who were at the time heading the theatre program at the theatre program at the time heading who were 46 it was Carnegie Institute of Technology at the time. Hoffman Hoffman at the time. Technology Institute of it was Carnegie — . Corrigan helped to form NYU’s Tisch School of the Artsof School California the and Tisch NYU’s form to helped Corrigan TDR.

it was with the graduating class of the program the graduating class it was with , which became the became which , Review Drama Carleton —

Institute of the Arts. He was also Dean of the School of Fine Arts at the University of Washington and Dean of of Dean and Washington of Arts University the at Fine of the School of Dean also was Arts.of the He Institute started he College, Carleton at While Dallas. at Texas of University the at Artsthe of School the Humanities and the Theodore Hoffman and Robert W. Corrigan headed the drama department at Carnegie Mellon University in University Mellon department drama the headed Corrigan W. Carnegie at Robert and Hoffman Theodore Arts the of School Tisch NYU’s program training theatre professional the head on to went Hoffman 1960s. the of editor an associate was and when Richard Schechner brought the journal to NYU. to journal the brought Schechner Richard when Review Drama 46. when we had the first season in Paris. He came to Berlin and watched rehearsals, and he talked and he rehearsals, Berlin and watched He came to Paris. the first season in when we had and Bob Corrigan, Hoffman Ted to of the country, the size of the population, as well as the multiethnic structure of the American the as well as the multiethnic structure of the size of the population, of the country, I did not actors from the first time I worked here. American I loved to work with population. Mother Courage the productions I did, Of course, try to emulate the Ensemble model necessarily. but I did not try to copy it or to were definitely influenced by the model of Brecht, for example, recreate it in English. legacy as any kind of burden in that sense? feel the didn’t You HUNTER: I did a summer produc- ’63–’64, After I was in Stanford, actually. Not at all, No. WEBER: No. understand why I don’t a wonderful play. It’s which I loved. in Memphis, tion of Country Wife I never did Brecht I did Molière. . de Bergerac I did Cyrano York And then in New rarely done. it’s but not Brecht. I did everything, York. in New he said that as a writer he really had to In that interview with Kushner from 1994, MURPHY: there Were both to write with him and write against him. work some things out with Brecht, felt you were wrestling where you or any productions in particular, spaces in your directing, with Brecht? - dia by Brecht’s might say that my view of a play I’m going to direct is influenced You WEBER: but I would not try to do a production like Brecht probably view of theatre, lectics and Brecht’s no. say that, I wouldn’t would have done the same play. prediction for can you make a about the past, asked you so many questions We’ve MURPHY: Brecht in the future? All his plays have enor America is purely economic. WEBER: One problem with Brecht in Except for American commercial theatre. mous casts and enormous casts are very expensive in and always was. impossible today, but otherwise it’s a musical, because it’s , Opera Threepenny When I did several But even that has changed. it. they could afford Except for regional theatres, and that was quite successful. It was seen by some So I did Puntila and that was quite successful. there. could cast it pretty well the only person who had at the time, who came out of curiosity because I was, critics, York New America. in Berlin who was directing in worked with Brecht and doing Brecht pro- America when you were first coming to At the time HUNTER: needing to create an about, or deliberate were you thinking about, how much ductions, Ensemble model with you trying to find ways to do the Berliner Brecht”? Or were “American American actors? training is very different from whose American actors, to do Brecht with I tried WEBER: No. best as possible with the available and I tried to do the Brecht plays as German actors’ training, actors very rich in good compared to Germany, America is, actors. Carnegie Mellon University Carnegie Mellon - me to do some proposed they invite program and Schneider were heading the and Corrigan stu- After I had seen the a Brecht play. to Pittsburgh to stage so they invited me and thing, dents Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

96 Carl Weber the CommunistPartySecretary to confiscatetheharvestforJapanese, andtheChinesepeopleinvillage, themayor, and in MaoZedong’sarmyduringtheLongMarch. The playisaboutJapanesesoldierswhocome is adreamroleforanactor, ofcourse After all, MotherCourageisadreamroleforanymiddle-agedactress, Iwouldsay, andPuntila afford it. That’s oneofthereasons Brechtisnotdoneasmuch[hisplays]otherwisewouldbe. Arturo UithereandJulius Caesar. Itwaspossibleinthosedays. Today, veryfewtheatrescan of big-scaleproductionsatthetime:Shakespeare, Brecht, andsoon. IdidTheResistibleRiseof actors fromthe Washington areawhichtheyusedtocasttheirproductions, andtheydidalot things at Arena Stageinthe1970s, theyhadacompanyofabout10actorsandthenpool 48. 47. for theEighth Army, and Manfred Wekwerth, ayoungdirectoratBerlinerEnsemble, adaptedaChineseplay, Millet WEBER: A couple of years before, Elizabeth Hauptmann, oneofBrecht’s famouscollaborators, idea todothisparticularplaydevelop? And towhatextentdidBrechttakepartinit? poem; thetwoofyou, Palitzschandyou, thankhimforhishelpwiththisproject. Howdidthe Palitzsch andyou. The prefacealsomentionsthatBrechtcontributedtheadaptionofanancient preface saysthatitisafolkplayfromancientChinaandtheadaptionwasdonebyPeter POHLMANN: There isaninterestingstorybehindTheDay oftheGreat Scholar Wu. The The Day oftheGreatScholar Wu and gram “Plays fromtheOldChinaandNewChina.” Wu it intoastageplayandperformtogetherwithMilletfortheEighth Army. We putinthepro- The Day oftheGreat Scholar Wu ontelevisionatthetime. Brechtproposedthatweshouldmake wanted tocontinuedoingtheChineseplaybutitwasaone-hourone-actplay. We weredoing too old Weigel decidedthatshedidn’twanttodoSeñoraCarraranylonger. Shethoughtshewas leftists duringacivilwar. That showransuccessfullyforacoupleofyears, butthenHelene Brecht’s Wekwerth stageditattheBerlinerEnsemble. Itwasaone-actplayperformedtogetherwith eighth army. ElizabethHauptmannand Wekwerth togetherdida­ very clevertrickstokeeptheharvestfromJapaneseandhanditoverMaoZedong’s invited forbreakfastorlunchdinnerathousesofrichfarmers byentertainingthemduring classic literatureandphilosophy. Butthere’snointerest. Frommorningtonight Wu triestoget but isnowtryingtomakealivingbygettingpropertyowners, farmers, andsooninterestedin WEBER: POHLMANN: Canyoutellusalittlebitmoreabouttheplay itself? Brecht. Heneverwantedcreditforthisparticularpoem. know where, amongsthisfiles, andweuseditinthe play asasong. Sothat’stheparticipationof Brecht wrotethislittlepoemtoo, basedonsomeChinesepoem hehadsomewhere, Idon’t do ontelevision, butnotonstage. SowehadtodosomerewritingandBrechtgaveusadvice. except thatweunifiedthelocation. Ontelevision, wehadmanydifferentlocations, easyto by Yuan Miautze and adapted by Elisabeth Hauptmann and Manfred Wekwerth. Wekwerth. The German version of this Chinese play by Loo Ding, Chang Fan, and Chu Shin-nan was translated Millet for the Eighth Army was first produced on1 April 1954 at the Berliner Ensemble directed by Manfred Peter Palitzsch and Carl Weber. The Day of the Great Scholar Wu was first produced at the Berliner Ensemble on 8 December 1955 directed by Millet fortheEighth Army wasthesecond. We basicallykeptthetelevisionversionofWu — Señora Carrar’s Rifles, hisplayabouttheSpanishCivil War. Bothplayswereabout Señora Carrarisinherearlythirtiesand Weigel wasinhermid-sixties. ButBrecht The Day oftheGreat Scholar Wu isthestoryofanintellectualwho’sstudiedinBeijing 48 writtenduringthefightagainstJapanesein’40sandperformed — whom Iplayed — and Arturo Uiisadreamroleforanactor. 47

— and acoupleofotherguys, inventsome wasthefirstpartofevening translation-adaptation, and

Carl Weber 97 studied, studied, in the shape of a a of shape the in Wu Scholar Great the of Day The

Figure 9: Program for Program 9: Figure Archive) (Courtesy 1955. Ensemble, BertoltBrecht of Berliner The fan. Chinese

the meal with his stories. The The his stories. the meal with in the morning when play starts He doesn’t out. he’s setting because he isn’t get breakfast enter the first place allowed to get Then he doesn’t he goes to. he’s any lunch because again he Finally, not allowed to enter. where manages to enter a house for the there is a birthday party proposes to Wu farm’s owner. exchange perform an opera in But the opera con- for dinner. poem. sists of only one small They kick him out immediately, ends up with- Wu and of course, out food for this day. POHLMANN: How did you come up with the idea of doing this play for television? liked the play and We WEBER: the television com- Adlershof, liked it so pany in East Berlin, they asked us to do a one-hour The television production of it. gave us Miautze, Yuan author, five or six or seven short plays which were performed in medi- Chinese eval China as operas, I have no idea how they style. didn’t Yuan were done then. instruct us very much about that, He just gave us the texts. frankly. entertain- “intellectual” to eat for presenting liked this story of a man trying to get a little We They provide some- It seemed to us a metaphor for the life of the intellectual in society. ment. want. thing that most people don’t even like or And how did you do it for television? POHLMANN: The actors were all from the Berliner Ensemble. WEBER: Palitzsch and I directed. “The plays [...] are hundreds is a sentence that reads: there POHLMANN: In the program, They illustrate the sad state of a completely decadent scholarship which existed in of years old. The German origi- the feudal state of China that was ruled by landowners and magistrates.” “formalist,” The word formalistisch means “decadent.” instead of nal uses the word formalistisch why did you choose this kind of a topic, Given the political situation of the GDR, “abstract.” this kind of a play at that particular time? picked the play because we felt that a lot of intellectuals had problems in the We WEBER: because the There were a lot of intellectuals They couldn’t get jobs or have careers. GDR. or whatever but then they couldn’t find employment People got their PhDs university was free. Marxism in in the state service because they were regarded as not loyal to the particular kind of They had ­ There were a number of people who barely scratched out a living. the GDR. Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

98 Carl Weber about 1955, afterthe1952Urfaust attheBerlinerEnsemble POHLMANN: Another questionrelatedtothishasdowiththestaging. You aretalking their ideologyaccordingtowhowasinpower. was also a critiqueof intellectuals. And, of course, there were, and are, intellectualswho changed lectual isgoingtobrownnosewhoeverheapproachesgetfoodorwhateverneeds. Soit don’t getone, youhavetodoallkindsofthingsmakealiving. The playshowshowtheintel- lot oftimesscholarsandintellectualshaveproblemsin America, togetuniversityjobs. Ifyou WEBER: Well, youmightsayso. It’snotthatwe’restarvingeither. Obviouslynot. Butquitea you experiencedsimilarproblemsbeingascholar?Havethingschanged?Is Wu relevanttoday? POHLMANN: SobothEastandthe West, capitalistandMarxistsocietyaredepicted. Have ing tryingtosellhisstuff. in Hollywood, PacificPalisades WEBER: Yes, certainly. ItwasinfluencedbyBrecht’sfamouspoemhewrotewhenliving situation inthe West. Wu isdealingwithlandowners,. Gutsbesitzern Was thatapointofittoo? POHLMANN: Readingtheplay, Ithoughtitcouldbeinterpretedasacriticismofthescholar’s Whatever theydidn’tlikecalledformalistischinthosedays, inthe’50s. being censored. Formalisticart, formalisticliteraturewashighlycondemnedintheGDR. the timesayingthatoutright, soweinsertedthetermformalistischintoprogramtoavoid they haddegrees, butcouldn’tgetjobsintheirownfield. We couldn’tdoaplayintheGDRat 51. The 50. 49. tried topresentthebesttheyhadculturally. Itwasaconstant competition. InBerlinyoucould derful. The citywasopen, youcouldgowherever wantedtogo. Boththe West andEast WEBER: A matterofchance, becauselivingandworking inBerlinduringthe’50swaswon- was itamatterofchance? POHLMANN: You endedupworkingandlivinginthe West. Didyouhavepoliticalreasonsor ent ChinesecomedieswegotfromMiautze. exact translationofaparticular, uniquecomedy. It’sacombinationofscenes fromseveraldiffer comedies frommedievaltimesandweconcoctedtheplayoutofseveralsources. It’snotthe of that. We pickedtheplaybecausewegotthistranslationby Yuan MiautzeofseveralChinese is quiteclosetowhatFaust isabout.The Day Butwedidn’tpick oftheGreat Scholar Wu because WEBER: Well, yes. To someextentyoumightsaythat a canonicalGermantext, suchasFaust, forexample. I wantedtoaskifthiswasalsooneofthereasonssetplayinancientChinaandnotuse know, Brecht’srelationshiptotheGDRauthoritieswasbecomingmoredifficultinthoseyears. and thesubsequentintellectualstrugglesinGDRcalledFormalismus-Debatte. the authorities tried to limit the freedom and distance GDR culture of art from its West German counterpart. 13 March 1953. Potsdam (dir. Egon Monk; music, Paul Dessau). The production opened at the Berliner Ensemble on The Berliner Ensemble’s production of Goethe’s I take up my place among the sellers. (Brecht [1976] 1998:382) Hopefully I go to the market where lies are bought Every day to earn my daily bread “Jeden Morgen, mein Brot zu verdienen” was written in 1942 in Santa Monica, California: Formalismus-Debatte refers to cultural-political debates at the beginning of the 1950s in the GDR in which

49 That’s whattheroleofintellectualswasincapitalist America.

— Santa Monica. Hewroteaboutgoingtomarketeverymorn-

Urfaust was first shown on 23 April 1952 at the Landestheater — not thestoryofcourse 50 andafterEisler’sFaust alsoin’52,

— but thetopic 51 As we As - Carl Weber 99 that’s when — the only place the only place a famous com- — 52 for instance was indirectly critical. But there was a brief period, But there was a brief period, for instance was indirectly critical. on 22 August 1920. August 22 on Jedermann had been before. But the Austrian authorities, Christian Democrats in those years, in those years, Christian Democrats Austrian authorities, the But had been before. 53

Gottfried von Einem (1918–1996) was an Austrian composer. From 1948 to 1951 and again from 1954 to 1964, 1964, to 1954 from again and 1951 to 1948 From composer. Austrian an was (1918–1996) Einem von Gottfried festival. Salzburg the of servedhe directors the of one as festi- Salzburg the established Reinhardt director. film and theatre Austrian an was (1873–1943) Reinhardt Max of production his with val before the so-called thaw in Eastern Europe, when East Berlin authorities put a lot of pressure when East Berlin authorities put a before the so-called thaw in Eastern Europe, Becher, The thaw came and Johannes R. But that was quickly over. on the arts and on literature. He became Minister of Culture. who had been in Russian exile during the Nazi period, a poet, Becher immediately stopped most of the attacks. was a friend of Brecht’s. mentions that the play takes Wu Scholar of the Great The preface of The Day POHLMANN: [ordinary “gewöhnliche Mumien” that all characters are but it also says “a long time ago,” place What does that mean? mummies]. petri- WEBER: It means they are ordinary stupid characters who have petrified opinions, gave each charac- We meant. “mummies” I think that’s what petrified attitudes. fied thoughts, Wu is and very petrified. very specific, different from each other, Very ter a very distinct gestus. or butter up whomever he’s trying to get food from. trying to adapt to changing all the time, exemplifying epic theatre? Are there scenes especially POHLMANN: more or less right wing, refused to give Brecht Austrian citizenship. Then he was invited to Austrian citizenship. refused to give Brecht more or less right wing, - It was an immediate enormous suc Theater. at the Deutsches East Berlin to do Mother Courage offered him the chance to start a company in East After that the East Berlin authorities cess. There is some evi- he decided to stay in East Berlin. That was why Berlin in his own theatre. with Brecht but even- negotiated the Schauspielhaus, dence that the Hamburger Staatstheater, I’m he would have gone, If Hamburg had offered him a theatre, tually decided not to go ahead. pretty sure of that. and say anything? : But are you saying you could stage anything JAKOVLJEVIC I mean not only at the Ensemble but at the Deutsches could stage a lot of things. You WEBER: plays too. Western They staged a wide variety of plays, and so on. Volksbühne, the Theater, : But not critical of the GDR. JAKOVLJEVIC Wu yes. WEBER: Indirectly, 52. 53. where you could see the best both sides of the Cold War had to offer culturally. When they When culturally. had to offer War sides of the Cold could see the best both where you West directing the first Germany, West to be in Lübeck, I happened border in ’61, closed the rehearsal and I two weeks into I was about Drums of Brecht’s German production in the Night. if I went back to Germany and secondly West my family was in to go back because decided not could travel again Eventually in the ’70s you any more. the East I couldn’t travel you could not leave East Germany up to 1970, But for nearly 10 years, Heiner Müller traveled. and Czechoslovakia. Hungary, except for Bulgaria, of your cultural work? in the ’50s you didn’t feel any repression POHLMANN: But He was too famous really for the And the same was true for Brecht. no. WEBER: Not really, West. had the option to go He always to pressure him in any way. East German authorities he first tried America, ’47 from that when he came back to Europe in There is some evidence von Einem, Gottfried but wasn’t permitted to do so. to settle in Switzerland, see the New York City Ballet and the Bolshoi Ballet, the Royal Shakespeare Company and the Company and the the Royal Shakespeare the Bolshoi Ballet, City Ballet and York see the New the ’50s world like Berlin in was no place in the There Theatre. Art Moscow poser and head of the Salzburg festival, wanted to appoint Brecht head of the festival, like Max head of the festival, wanted to appoint Brecht Salzburg festival, poser and head of the Reinhardt Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021 100 Carl Weber Directed by Carl Weber and Peter Palitzch. Brecht of Bertolt (Courtesy Archive) Figure 10: The Day of the Great Scholar Wu, the Berliner Ensemble, 1955. 54. work thewayhefeltitshouldbeworking. Wolf Kaiser, critique WEBER: Hecame, notallthetime, onceinawhile. Hewatchedrehearsalsandthengavehis POHLMANN: Was hearoundwhenyouwererehearsing? and thenyou’llseewhatI’mdoing, you’llseewhatitis.” Healwaysrefusedtodiscussit. do youcallyourtheatrework?” Brechtreplied, “I don’twanttodiscussit. Watch merehearse like Alan SchneiderandPeterBrookaskedBrecht, “What doyoumeanbyepictheatre? What all kindsofmisconceptionsaboutthekindtheatrehelikedandtriedtocreate. When people Organon becauseitgavepeopleatotallyerroneousideaaboutwhattheatreshouldbe;created in ’56, halfayearbeforehedied, hementionedthatregrettedhavingpublishedAShort WEBER: Brechtnevertalkedaboutepictheatre them. Consequently, theirgestuswasdifferentinrejectinghimortryingtokickout. The another onewhereheofferstoperformanopera. There aredifferentwaysforhimtoapproach him out. This one[pointsatslideprojection;fig. 10], where Wu threatenstokillhimself, then WEBER: Noneofthelandownerswant Wu intheirhouse. Eachonehasadifferentwaytoget actors togettheirgestus? the threelandowners. Canyoutalkalittlebitmorespecificallyabouthowworkedwiththe HUNTER: About gestus, yousaidfoundinthestoryaverydifferentgestusforeachof ing actorsofthecompany. Mother Courage andMacktheKnifeinThreepenny Opera. Hewasoneofthetwoorthreelead - Opera, 1960. including Wolf Kaiser (1916–1992) was a German actor who played in many famous productions of Brecht’s plays, — The Mother, 1950; to us, nottotheactors. What hefeltcouldbeimprovedorsomethingthatdidn’t Mother Courage and her Children, 1951; — in rehearsalorelsewhere. Infact, later 54 whoplayed Wu, actedtheChaplainin Life of Galileo, 1959; and bly sixweeks, maybeeight. For thestageproduction, proba- usual fortelevisioninthosedays. four weeksatmost. That was duction werehearsedthreeor WEBER: Forthetelevisionpro- you rehearse? JAKOVLJEVIC: Howlongdid mostly, basedonthetext. WEBER: No, no. Improvisation analyze itwiththeactors? going onyoudiscussthetextand HUNTER: To arrive atwhatis variation. This doesn’tpermitenormous owner hadabout15minutes. play wasonehour, soeachland- The Threepenny Carl Weber 101 quite a the bar — — we opened in London. So, Brecht wanted So, we opened in London. — On the way back, in the train, he caught a cold, he caught a cold, in the train, On the way back, 55 Brecht then, of course, had to prepare for London because he did had to prepare for London because of course, Brecht then, 56 and suddenly the guy who was in charge of the coatroom came to me, and he said and he said of the coatroom came to me, and suddenly the guy who was in charge Opera it’s the best Threepenny when he came back, of which he said, , Opera Threepenny

— no, even two weeks after Brecht’s death even two weeks no, —

Strehler’s production premiered at the Piccolo Teatro in Milan on 27 February 1956. February 27 on Milan in Teatro Piccolo the at premiered production Strehler’s role. title in the Busch Ernst January with Schiffbauerdamm am the Theater at 1957 in opened production This (Willet 1977:46–47). [1959] Neher Caspar by designed were Sets directing. the over took Engel Then one day we were told he cannot rehearse today. He felt too weak and I rehearsed today. Then one day we were told he cannot rehearse and Brecht, we could hear his voice from the speaker and she said: my god that we could hear his voice from the speaker and she said: my god that Chalk Circle and Brecht, a flu really, which then attacked his heart and that’s what he died of, eventually. So when he So when he eventually. he died of, then attacked his heart and that’s what which a flu really, or less and then Engel more , He continued rehearsing Galileo sick. came back he was already conducted the rehearsals. 55. 56. first performed? Who was the Who was the first performed? Reich Third Misery and of the was Fear What year MANTOAN: staff? production we opened after Brecht’s first production in 1957 and was the It was performed first WEBER: Busch Galileo with Ernst begun rehearsals for of 1956 Brecht had in the spring Actually, death. It was the . Mother Courage like on with Erich Engel again on Galileo, as Galileo and he worked join and he asked Engel to again with Engel, that Brecht worked only time after Mother Courage And so they not very well in the spring of 1956. because he felt already him in directing Galileo to see the opening of Giorgio a while and then Brecht went to Milan rehearsed together for Strehler’s Fear and Misery of the Third Reich Third of the and Misery Fear the one in 1928. including he had ever seen, contrast to other directors who would speak very softly to actors, telling them what they should telling them what very softly to actors, contrast to other directors who would speak and had a Brecht wasn’t able anymore to call out to the stage so they put a mic on his table do. Angelika Hurwicz I remember what he was saying. speaker backstage so we could hear onstage was waiting for an entrance as Grusha She I was standing with her backstage. in Chalk Circle. in was four days before he died. That sounds like a voice from the grave. Somehow and Drums for the London season. and Besson rehearsed Trumpets Mother Courage the sec- I remember was very wrong with Brecht. the company seemed to feel that something after the show to a bar around the corner where we we went ond day after he stayed away, bar I remember then suddenly the guy in the often went in the evening and at night. was a lit- and when you entered there the Ensemble, was in the street around the corner from coat and stuff like that and then you went into the tle entry room where you could leave your bar itself “Could you please come up, there’s someone who wants to talk to you.” And outside, in the lit- And outside, there’s someone who wants to talk to you.” “Could you please come up, and he cried and I knew of who was Brecht’s chauffeur, Lindemann, stood [Werner] tle foyer, he And he went to the bar because half an hour ago.” he just died, “Well and he said, course, and then a couple of Brecht was dead, So, knew that at least five or six of us were in the bar. the head Ulbrecht spoke, Walter days later there was a big kind of event in the theatre where And Georg Lukács came from of the party and the government in East Germany at the time. Aristotelian dramaturgy [chuck- Budapest and said in his speech that Brecht actually followed In Lukács mentioned that; that was very funny. that he wouldn’t. les] in spite of what he said, indeed open the London season in late August in 1956. Actually, three weeks after Brecht’s Actually, August in 1956. season in late indeed open the London death which and Drums , and Trumpets and Chalk just to rehearse the productions of Mother Courage He could only rehearse about two to bring them into good shape again. were going to London, five hours. He always rehearsed four, which he never before had done. hours in the morning, theatre at this table there and called his directions He always used to sit in the 10th row of the everybody or heard what he said to the actors, to the actors onstage in a way that everybody forth or not to do and so on and so to do, knew exactly what he was asking the actors Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

102 Carl Weber Bellag, andI, directedFear, andMisery witheachdirectordoingoneortwoscenes, depending. between usfour WEBER: Well wediscussedtogetherwhichscenesshoulddoandmadeanagreement MANTOAN: Howdidyoudecidewhichofwoulddirectscenes? to work. WEBER: Maybe. Idon’tknow. What wetriedtodowascontinueworkinginthewayheused JAKOVLJEVIC: SowereyouperceivedasBrecht’sheirs? WEBER: Yeah,exactly. JAKOVLJEVIC: The directingassistants? WEBER: The youngdirectorsofthecompany. JAKOVLJEVIC: What doyoumeanby “we”? The BerlinerEnsemble?Orthefourofyou? WEBER: Notreally. Imeanweallgottogetheranddiscussedthepotentialproduction. choose thedirectors? death. Instead, therewerefouryoungdirectors. Howwereyouselected?DidHelene Weigel JAKOVLJEVIC: It’sinterestingthatnosingledirectordidthefirstproductionafterBrecht’s production afterBrecht’sdeath. And soweopenedFear, andMisery Ibelieve, veryearlyin1957, whichwastheEnsemble’sfirst MANTOAN: And thentheconcentrationcampscene. WEBER: The veryfirstscene. Two SSguysinthestreetwhoshootat the windows. MANTOAN: And “One BigFamily,” thefirstsceneinplay? WEBER: Right. MANTOAN: YouProcess?”directed “Judicial by awholegroupofdirectors. of course, andthat’swhenwepickedFear ofthe andMisery Third Reich becauseitcouldbedone was illorsickwhateverandtheyhadtointerrupt. Then wewantedtodoanewproduction, the fallwhennewseasonstartedbutthenBusch, whoplayedGalileo, forwhateverreason London the26thof August, soverybrieflyafter. ThenEngelbegantorehearse againGalileoin went onrehearsingtheshowsforLondonandweleft23rdopenedin Lukács said Aristotelian dramaturgywouldbetheonlywaytowriteplaysanddoplays. lished anarticlewherehebasicallycriticizedBrecht’sideasofepictheatreasbeingwrong. nal publishedby[ the 1930shewasinMoscowandpublishedanarticleDasWort, whichwasaGermanjour 58. 57. Well then, wewentonrehearsingafterBrecht’sdeath. Hediedonthe14thof August. We (Barnett 2015:452). production that opened on 15 February 1957: Weber, Bellag, Palitzsch, Käthe Rülicke, and Konrad Swinarski Based on the information provided by the Berliner Ensemble Archive, David Barnett lists five directors of this present moment through a historic one but offers a direct examination of conditions in Germany under Hitler. the Berliner Ensemble during Brecht’s tenure. Atypical of most of Brecht’s to understand its work, it does not try and most tendentious plays. It has a more traditional, Aristotelian dramaturgy than most of the plays produced at scene in which a man is released from a concentration camp. unfairly by a judge under pressure from the Third Reich; “One Big Family,” about SS officers; and “Release,” a lence, and the Nazi regime. Carl Weber directed “In Search of Justice,” a scene in which a Jewish man is treated Fear of the Third and Misery Reich — Johannes R.]BecherandotherGermanexiles, communistexiles. Lukácspub- Palitzsch, Bellag, Wekwerth, andme. 57 is broken up into titled scenes that condemn anti-Semitism, poverty, vio- So, fourdirectors, PeterPalitzsch, Manfred Wekwerth, Lothar Fear is one of Brecht’s and Misery least parabolic 58 -

Carl Weber 103 the season after Brecht’s death. Brecht died in after Brecht’s death. the season — Figure 11: Conceptual drawing by Karl von Appen for “Judicial Process” from from Process” “Judicial for Appen von Karl by drawing Conceptual 11: Figure courtesy1971; Dieckmann (From (1957). Reich Miseryand Third the in Fear Berlin) Kunst, der Akademie of He actually originally directed the scene and after he left we had to directed the scene and after he left we He actually originally 59

- he kept work to Poland, his return Upon and opera director. theatre (1929–1975) was a Polish Swinarski Konrad play Weiss’s Peter of premiere world The Germany. of Republic Federal the in primarily theatres, German in ing of new theatre Schillertheater “a for emblematic became 1964, in Berlin’s West at directed he which , Marat/Sade 2006:53). [1999] (Lehmann 1965” around developed protest and provocation 59. August of 1956 and so Konrad stayed with us until the end of the 1956/57 season and then the end of the 1956/57 stayed with us until 1956 and so Konrad August of a plane he was killed in Unfortunately, a brilliant career there. to Poland and made went back of the artistic director He was for a while I believe. to Syria, was on a plane flying He accident. Stary in Krakow. Teatr the WEBER: Right, I took over because that originally was directed by a young Polish director, young Polish director, was directed by a because that originally I took over Right, WEBER: after Brecht’s death in 1955 and then as an assistant to Brecht who came Konrad Swinarski, final season the company for the stayed with restage it because some actors left the company. Then I restaged the concentration camp scene. Then I restaged actors left the company. restage it because some did you all do? how much coordination of directors, Directing with a team MANTOAN: Each director directed the group. not the whole our scenes individually, we did Well, WEBER: “Judicial Process.” So I did first to do. scenes he was assigned come out of it? What did you want to with the scene? What was your goal MANTOAN: “Judicial Process” work was scene of the play but the more exciting WEBER: It’s the opening and amazing because the scenes in Fear it’s Actually, little play really. because it’s a marvelous the which he wrote in Misery, 1930s and early 1940s in exile, are based on incidents he heard about in Germany at the time, And he was writing under Hitler. these plays for basically west- American even, or ern European, It’s the first play he theatres. where he really I think, wrote, applied what you might call real- very much istic dramaturgy, based on Ibsen’s dramaturgies. “Judicial Process,” If you look at it’s five sections and each section is like an act in a five-act play. sup- It proceeded exactly as, Aristotelian rules pre- posedly, scribed: from the exposition in the first scene; second scene the conflict is introduced; third or fourth scene the conflict comes to a crucial point and then in the fifth scene the conflict is This is the only play he resolved. wrote where he used this partic- or you might ular conventional, is a model piece for Ibsenian dra- you might say, “Judicial Process,” dramaturgy. say traditional, maturgy and that became very clear during rehearsal. Did that change the way you went about directing it? MANTOAN: I just tried to do it. that at the time. I didn’t think much about WEBER: No, Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

104 Carl Weber [ Judicial Process]? one forwhomevercameinandtalkedtohim. Well, theactor he wassitting. Hewassittingonthestage-rightsidesothereweretwochairs, oneforhimand than whatweseeinthisimageactually. Itwasmorelikeadesk, likeanofficedeskreally, where WEBER: Well, actually, mostofthetimehewasbehindtable, whichwasquitedifferent the scene? JAKOVLJEVIC: Doyourememberanyofthegestures?Ofgestusthatusedin tells him. comes inandthensuddenlythisconclusionisagaintotallythrownoutbywhatthenextperson seemed tohavearrivedatacertainconclusion. What he’sgoingtodo. And thenthenextperson one wayofhisdealingwiththeissuesandproblemshehasbyendscene, he WEBER: Hechangedhisgestus. Imean, hispersonalgestusinthebeginningofscenewas JAKOVLJEVIC: Howdidyouhandlethatwiththeactor? will do, ashasbecomeclear, willbedisastrousforhim. Itwillfinishhiscareerasajudge. to conductthetrialhedoesn’tknowwhatdoyet. He’stotallyatalossbecausewhateverhe WEBER: Inthecourseofscene, thepressuregetsworseandatendwhenhewalksout MANTOAN: 60. archives, thenDEFA inEastGermany[theGermanFilmCollection], inBabelsbergnear period whichwefoundactuallyintheformerUFA [aGermanfilmandtelevisioncompany] made aselectionofscenes. And inbetweenweplayed documentary filmmaterialfromthe WEBER: Eventuallyweselectedscenes. The wholetext wouldlastaroundsixhours, sowe exactly howithadbeen? MANTOAN: When youdirectedit, didyoumakeanychangestothescript?Diddirect it in 1945. tion afterthewarin1945Switzerland. They played Fear ofthe andMisery Third Reich inBasel otherwise itwasn’tperformeduntilafterthewar. ItwasactuallythefirsteverBrechtproduc- among otherthings. Weigel playedtheJewish Wife inParis1935, inGermanofcourse. But a smallGermanexiletheatreinParisandtheyperformedfew scenesfromFear, andMisery WEBER: Idon’tthinkitwaseverdonebefore, beforethewar, anywhere. In1935therewas it afterBrechtdied? MANTOAN: What changedinthe script betweentheprewarshowingsofitandwhenyoudid upstage behindthecurtainthatcoveredarea. the nextscenecameinonrevolve. While thenextscenewasacted, theychangedthescene WEBER: The setswereonarevolve. After ascenewasovertherevolvetooksetoutand individual scene? MANTOAN: Howdidyouallapproachscenechangeswithdifferentsetsforeach last sectionwhenthesuperiorjudgeistalkingtohim. but it’squitedrastic, especiallywhenthestateattorneytalkstohim. And thenespeciallyinthe our gestusimmediatelyanddrastically. Ofcourse, nothingthatdramatichappensinthescene, mean, ifsomeonecamerunninginandsaid, “There’s afireinthebuilding,” wewould change played thescenemomentbymoment, youknow. Likepeopleinfactbehave “real life.” I what specific ruling they want. what specific man. After being threatened, in a way that will please the Third the judge wants to rule Reich, but it is not clear In “Judicial Process,” a judge meets with an inspector and prosecutoron a case against a Jewish prior to ruling Can youtalkalittleaboutthegestusofjudgeinthisscene 60 — quite agoodactor, actually — Carl Weber 105 for instance, sec- for instance, — and maybe even change lines and and maybe even change — — no one is innocent it forward? How did you deal so did you twist that point or did you push to make people aware of what was going on. Because the play assumes that an Because the play of what was going on. to make people aware —

Berlin, which is the main German film studio. The most important German film studio, started German film studio, The most important film studio. is the main German which Berlin, before starting from of German films, was this enormous archive And there in 1912 I believe. documentary material we found fascinating and there I even, War World WEBER: Right. WEBER: Right. : — JAKOVLJEVIC with the idea that there might have been some ex-Nazis in the audience? with the idea that there might have been were aware of that. We WEBER: against this kind of idea? : Did you try to anticipate that and to play JAKOVLJEVIC every- in 1957, by that time, But on the other hand, you might say. in a way yes, Well, WEBER: At the time the play was written even Brecht didn’t know really. one knew what was going on, when you know, Auschwitz didn’t exist yet, I mean, for instance. about the concentration camps, What the yet. So the worst atrocities of the Nazis hadn’t even happened the play was written. Or was reveal how 90 percent of the population was basically behind Hitler. of course, play did, nobody ever would have dared to express that in any form even if people were not for Hitler, or shape. and you were at that time six : Most of the scenes take place in the mid 1930s, JAKOVLJEVIC or seven years old? WEBER: I was seven when the Nazis came to power. : Did working on this play bring back memories? JAKOVLJEVIC sure. WEBER: Of course, : Did you actually rely on or try to go back to some particular memories? Have JAKOVLJEVIC you witnessed persecution? tions of the trial against members of the conspiracy to kill Hitler in 1944 in Leipzig. There There in Leipzig. to kill Hitler in 1944 of the conspiracy trial against members tions of the of East Germany. speak, so to Court, was then the Supreme at the time in what was a big trial were put on trial to kill Hitler in this conspiracy generals who had participated All of these material from that partic- found incredible We sentenced to death. course, of there and then, have to keep in mind that all you Of course, “Judicial Process.” after ular trial which we used so people were very recent history, all this was For the audience, this was 12 years after the war. let’s say, if I were to do it, So, what was going on in Germany under Hitler. very much informed would have to make certain adjustments I America, here in change the text audience would know. of many audi- in the play were within the living memory The events depicted : JAKOVLJEVIC it an attempt to Was play? extent did that inform the reception of the what To ence members. remember the Nazi period? To period? account for the Nazi time did not The play really is revealing a lot of the Nazi period which people at the WEBER: or were not informed about. know, : Or were trying to repress. JAKOVLJEVIC exactly. WEBER: Well, everyone is implicated in the : Brecht strongly indicates in the play that JAKOVLJEVIC regime — of course. Yes, WEBER: : — JAKOVLJEVIC Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

106 Carl Weber and ­ ing oftheproductionwere. Ofaneight-monthperiod, Brechtspentsevenmonthsonblocking sarily. Exceptforthefactthatweallwereawarehow importantthevisualaspectandblock- WEBER: Right, ofcourse, butitwasnotthatwe triedtoemulatethewayhedirectedneces- you trytoinvokeBrecht? much wasBrechtpresentinthisfirstposthumousproduction attheBerlinerEnsemble?Did Brecht’s hometown. That’s notaccidentalatall. Didyoutakethatintoconsideration?How JAKOVLJEVIC: “Judicial Process” beginswiththedesignation “Augsburg 1934.” Itissetin ally. Hecouldhavebecomeaverygoodactor, Ithink, ifhewouldhavedecidedtodothat. say, togivethemaparticularphysicalgestus, that’swhathedemonstrated, andverywell, actu- WEBER: Well, that’swhathetriedtoavoid, thattheyimitated him, personally. ButImeanto MANTOAN: Would theactorsthentrytoimitate hisphysicalmovements? moment withtheactors, neverusingtextfromtheplayitself, justgibberish. you showme, Brecht?” And thensometimeshedidshowthemwhatfelt, ataparticular it, sofunny, thewayhedidthat. And actorsquiteoftentriedtoprovokehimbysaying, “Can’t him todemonstrateforthem, toshowthemthegestus, sotospeak, becausehewassogoodat Brecht wassittingasfar15feetfromtheactors. And quiteoftentheactorstriedtoprovoke WEBER: OntherehearsalstageonReinhardtstraße, whichwasoppositeDeutsches Theater, TACATA: Howdidthatfeelforyou? WEBER: Fromthe10throw. Brecht’s deathandI’mcuriousaboutwhereareyoudirectingfrom, inthistheatre? that thiswaswherehepositionedhimself. This isthefirstproductionthatgetsstagedafter TACATA: You hadmentionedbeforethatBrechtdirectedfromthe10throwoftheatre, of course. most importantNaziorganization, actually. And thentheSSbecamemostimportantone, and fromthenontheSAwasofnoimportanceanymoreatall. And itwasuptothatpointthe Heinrich HimmlerwhowasheadoftheSStogetridRöhm, whowasforcedtokillhimself, was aplottotoppleHitler, whichitturnsoutwasn’ttrue, actually. Butinfact, itwasusedby edly averyhigh-rankingmancalledErnstRöhm, whowasheadoftheSA, supposedlythere the wholeproblemhereforjudge for instance, in “Judicial Process,” thissplitbetweenSSandSA, whichisoneofthetopics referred tothingstheyhadheardabout, butnotwitnessedthemselves, ofcourse. Imean, WEBER: Sometimesanactorsaid, Irememberthisorthat. Where theplayitself, thetext, for them? MANTOAN: Didthecastbringtorehearsals anyparticularmemoriesthattheplayevoked That allwasoverby1939, 1940. travel outsideGermanyeasilyandcouldleavetaketheirmoneywiththemaswell. The Jewish WifeThe , play. Exceptthattheworstcrimes, atthetimehewroteplay, hedidn’tevenknowof. Like the late’30sandthenin’40s, basicallycorroboratedwhatBrechtwastryingtosayinthe I wastoolittletobeawareofmostthosethings. ButthelittlebitIbecameawareoflater, in WEBER: Well, ofcourseIneverwitnessedanythinglikewhathappenedintheplay. Because In 61. In Gentile husband, in denial about a great many things, tells her things will blow over weeks. in a few re-blocking scenesuntiltheyhad arrivedatavisualcompositionofthesceneswhichhe The Jewish Wife, aJewishThe wifetelephonesfriendsandfamilytoletthemknow she’s going awayforawhile.Her 61 forinstance. At thattime, whenthescenehappensinplay, Jewscould — that wasknown. Imeanin1934, therewassuppos- Carl Weber 107 - is a play about a war in the past but it’s meant to be a commen- is a play about a war Mother Courage Fear and Misery has is about a country that Fear II. War World and Misery is not about Fear

Arcade Publishing. Stuttgart: Philipp Reclam. . Schweiz https://doi.org/10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.article.07650. 2018. London: Routledge. Jürs-Munby. London: Nick Hern Books. . Lewenstein Rowman & Littlefield. PAJ Publications. New 83–90. Alexander Stephan, Therese Hörnigk and edited by Republic, from the German Democratic York: Continuum. Deutsches Theater seit 1945: Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Dt. Demokrat. Republik, Österreich, Österreich, Republik, Demokrat. Dt. Deutschland, Theater seit 1945: Bundesrepublik Deutsches 1976. Hans. Daiber, Berlin: Henschelverlag. Ensemble. Appens Bühnenbilder am Berliner von Karl 1971. Friedrich. Dieckmann, Press. Cambridge: Cambridge University to Plan . According Chaos, Bertolt Brecht: 1987. John. Fuegi, Grove Press. York: New . the Modern and the Making of Drama Politics, & Co.: Sex, Brecht 1994. John. Fuegi, London: Eyre Methuen. Story. The Theatre Workshop 1981. Howard. Goorney, & Nicolson. Weidenfeld London: . A Brecht: Biography 1983. Ronald. Hayman, April Accessed 21 Edited by Deane Root. Music Online. Grove Paul.” “Dessau, 2001. Fritz. Hennenberg, 9 June:22. Review, The Saturday “Broadway Postscript.” 1962. Henry. Hewes, University Press. Yale New Haven: . Weigel of Helene Work The Life and Brecht: Frau 2007. Gitta. Honegger, and with an introduction by Karen Translated . Theatre Postdramatic (1999) 2006. Hans-Thies. Lehmann, of Oscar The Memoirs Producer Looks Back: Theatre A the Pricks: Against Kicking 1994. Oscar. Lewenstein, MD: Lanham, . Germany Historical Dictionary of Contemporary 2016. with Ulrike Zitzlsperger. Derek, Lewis, London: Methuen. It. Tells History as She Peculiar Littlewood’s Book: Joan Joan’s 1994. Joan. Littlewood, York: New Weber. Edited and translated by Carl . Poems Prose, The Battle: Plays, 1989. Heiner. Muller, and Other Stories W. Young In The New Sufferings of His Story.” Tells “Hans Garbe 1997. Käthe. Rülicke, References Press. Cambridge: Cambridge University . Ensemble A History of the Berliner 2015. David. Barnett, London: Routledge. Willet. by John Translated 1913–56. Poems 1998. (1976) Bertolt. Brecht, by New York: John Willet. Translated . and Her Children Mother Courage 1994. (1980) Bertolt. Brecht, with Iraq and Afghanistan in mind? Or Afghanistan and Misery with Iraq and you direct Fear Would II. War World tary on going to keep it there. II and we’re War World is: this is all about would you direct it as WEBER: tainly we commented on particular moments in other scenes and vice versa. Basically, what Basically, and vice versa. on particular moments in other scenes tainly we commented where we felt the scene did not other when we were discussing scenes is we tried to tell each certainly talked about that. We it should achieve or should be like. achieve what supposedly MANTOAN: and that’s probably an aspect I where the population has been brainwashed, been brainwashed, obviously also brainwashed during Americans were A certain amount of would try to emphasize. I mean the and so on and so forth. the world and about what was going on the Bush years about dealt with in the country is still amazing to me because way the Iraq war was brought about and based on lies. of course, it was a totally unjustified war, was satisfied with. The goal was to arrive at a visual telling of the narrative. That is what we had That is what telling of the narrative. was to arrive at a visual The goal with. was satisfied well. he tried to do as him and that’s what learned from row? Did you comment positioned in the 10th you young directors all of Were MANTOAN: scenes? on each other’s And cer things. as well talked about Weigel And as a group. talked about scenes We WEBER: Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on 25 September 2021 Downloaded from http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/dram_a_00773 by guest on25 September 2021

108 Carl Weber Zimmertheater. n.d. “Zimmertheater Heidelberg.” Accessed 22 April 2018. https://www.zimmertheaterhd Willet, John. (1959)1977. The Theatre ofBertoltBrecht: A Study fromEight Aspects. London:Methuen. Weber, Carl. 1994. “I alwaysgobacktoBrecht:aconversationwiththeplaywright Tony Kushner.” The Weber, Carl. 1989. “A Repertory Theatre inaPOW Camp.” Theatre andFilm inExile:German Artists in Tynan, Kenneth. 2007. KennethTynan:Writings Theatre . SelectedandeditedbyDominicShellard;preface Strittmatter, Erwin. 1967. Katzgraben.Berlin: Aufbau-Verlag. Silvester, Christopher. 1997. “Oscar Beuselinck.” ChristopherSilvester, 29July. Accessed 22 April 2018. .de/. Brecht Yearbook/DasBrecht-Jahrbuch , vol. 20:67–88. Madison: The InternationalBrechtSociety. Britain, 1933–1945, editedbyGünterBerghaus, 231–45. Oxford:Oswald Wolff Books. by Matthew Tynan; forewordby Tom Stoppard. London:NickHernBooks. http://christophersilvester.com/oscar-beuselink.html.