University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
George W. Dunne Memoir
D922G. Dunne, George W. b. 1913 Interview and memoir 17 tapes, 626 mins., 156 pp., plus index
ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM Dunne, former member of the Illinois General Assembly, recalls his childhood growing up in an Irish household in Chicago; education, early political experiences, tutelage under 42nd Ward politician William "Botchy" Connors; criminal activities, political issues, ethnic groups, work with the Chicago Park District, and WWII and Korean War military service. He also discusses his years in the General Assembly: legislation, committee work, Illinois politicians, judicial and legislative reform, reapportionment, legislative technique, Democratic Party, and the administrations of Governors Stratton and Kerner. References are made to Chicago mayors and the murder of Mayor Anton Cermak.
Interview by Horace Q. Waggoner, 1983 OPEN See collateral file
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Howard B. BrO()kins, Chicago Loleta A. Ditlri~ieon, :Flossmoor John A. D'Arco, Chicago James :M:. K.lfl•nd, Elgin Miguel del Vall'e, Chicago Robert teflofi~.Jr. Chicago ·,:; Walter W. Dudycz, Chicago MichaetJ. '!Jte, ~atur William F. Mahar,; Homewood (va.). y ·
. - ;·· Dlinoi&• General. Asse.. blj .. Oral Bistori Peam Advi8Dtf Committee ). ·•.· · Terry Bruce, Olney • · Patrick O'Grady, ~ •. Director U.S. Congressman Legislative Res~. U~t 19th District .,.,;· .Pan Holt, formerly·&ssijattd With Cullom Davis, .Director of Oral Hitltory state Historical ~a,Yi~ Office and Professor of Hiatoty, Sangamon State UJU.~eqtty Sangamon State University Robert P. Howard.; For~··" Statehouse Reporter William L. Day, Fonner Dii'ectot for Chicyo Tribune: Af#btl.r, Illinois: A Illinois Legislative Council; :ijistorx of the Prame - Editor Emeritus, Illinois IS&U!t · · ~t Munn, FMmJ'J:lran~ Chief. David Everson, Professor of Political Studies Department pf Mental ~lth and Public Affairs, Sangamm:i S~te University ,J. Glenn Schneider,'Fo~~.State Representative Gerald L. Gherardini, Associate.Director. ... :·(t>,Naperville), and'Socii.Studies Teacher, Legislative Research Unit· . .. N11perville North Hip ~~
Samuel K. Gove, Professor Institute of Government and Public Affairs, University of Illinois (Former Director)
H. William Hey, Former Director Legislative Research Unit ILLINOIS GENERAL ASSEMBLY ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
PREVIOUS TITLES IN SERIES
Martin B. Lohmann Memoir, 1 Vol. (1980)
Bernice T. Van der Vries Memoir, 3 Vols. (1980)
Walter J. Reum Memoir, 2 Vols. (1980)
Thomas A. McGloon Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981)
John W. Fribley Memoir, 2 Vols. (1981)
Charles W. Clabaugh Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Cecil A. Partee Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982)
Elbert S. Smith Memoir, 2 Vols. {1982)
Frances L. Dawson Memoir, 2 Vols. (1982}
Robert W. McCarthy Memoir, 2 Vols. (1983)
,John C. Parkhurst Memoir, 2 Vols. (1984)
Corneal A. Davis Memoir, 2 Vols. {1984)
Cumulative Index, 1980-1984
Edward P. Saltiel Memoir, 1 Vol. (1985)
William A. Redmond Memoir, 2 Vols. (1986)
.John G. Gilbert Memoir, 1 Vol. (1986)
Paul J. Randolph Memoir, 1 Vol. (1986)
William L. Grindle Memoir, 2 Vols. {1986)
Gale Williams Memoir, 2 Vols. (1986)
Robert L. Burhans Memoir, 1 Vol. (1987)
Esther Saperstein Memoir, 2 Vols. (1987)
Leland Rayson Memoir, 1 Vol. (1987)
Donald O'Brien Memoir, 1 Vol. (1988) GEORGE W. DUNNE ILLINOIS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 1955-1963 Preface
This oral history of George W. Dunne's service in the Illinois House of Representatives is a product of the Illinois Legislative Rt~search Unit's General Assembly Oral History Program. The oral history technique adds a distinctive new dimension to the unit's statu• tory responsibility for performing research and collecting information concerning the govern• ment of the state.
George W. Dunne was born in Chicago, Illinois on February 20, 191:3. A lifelong resident of the city's near north side, he grew up in an Irish household. He was educated in Catholic elementary and secondary schools and later attended Northwestern University. Hard times led to various odd jobs as a young boy, and he readily moved into 42nd Ward politics under the tutelage of committeeman William (Botchy) Connors. His political career was inter• rupted by four years of military service during World War II and another tour of duty during the Korean War.
Mr. Dunne was an aetive participant in Chicago Democratic politics from the late Hl20s on. Succeeding Connors as 42nd Ward committeeman, he became associated with every party leader of his era. In 1954 he was elected to the Illinois House of Representatives, serving four terms that culminated in his election as House Majority Leader in 1961. As a legislator his interests seldom narrowed on one area, but he did serve on committees deal• ing with municipalities, veteran's affairs, labor relations and public utilities. Subsequently he was elected to the Cook County Board, and thereafter served successive terms as Board President as well as chairman of the Cook County Democratic Party.
Mr. Dunne worked hard in the General Assembly to champion the needs of Chicago citizens. His memoir covers many of the legislative issues and personalities of the 1950s and 1960s. It is particularly rich in its account and assessment of Chicago politics over more than a quarter century.
Readers of this oral history should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word. Its informal, conversational style represents a deliberate attempt to encourage candor and to tap the narrator's memory. However, persons interested in listening to the tapes should understand that editorial considerations produced a text that differs somewhat from the original recordings. Both the recordings and this transcript should be regarded as pri• mary historical sources, as no effort was made to correct or challenge the narrator. Neither the Illinois Legislative Research Unit nor Sangamon State University is responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for the views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.
The tape recorded interviews were conducted by Horace Waggoner during the summer and fall of 1983. Mr. Waggoner was born in 1924 in Waggoner, a small farm-service community
v in central Illinois. At age 18, he enlisted for military service in World War II and, as a U.S. Air Force commissioned officer, continued to serve until 1973. Upon leaving service, he resumed his formal education, achieving a master degree in history at Sangamon State University. He was associated with the Sangamon State University Oral History Office from 1976 until his death in 1987.
Julie Allen transcribed the tapes and, after the transcriptions were edited by Mr. Waggoner and reviewed by Mr. Dunne, prepared the typescript. Florence Hardin compiled the index. The Chicago Tribune provided valuable assistance in the pre-interview research.
This oral history may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without written permission from the Illi• nois Legislative Research Unit, 222 So. College, 3rd Floor, Suite A, Springfield, Illinois, 62704.
VI 1
George W. Dunne SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 1
Q: The first question, a vital statistic, is what's the date of your birth sir?
A: February 20th, 1913.
Q: And where were you born?
A: I was born in the city of Chicago.
Q: Where in Chicago?
A: I believe the address was . . . 64 K Walton.
Q: Was this north, south or east?
A: That's on the near north side of Chicago.
Q: What was your father's name?
A: My father's name was John Dunne.
Q: Was he born in Chicago also?
A: No he was born, to the best of my limited knowledge, in Offaly, Ireland.
Q: Offaly.
A: Offaly. It was then called Queenstown. They changed the name of it because the people in Ireland don't have much regard for the crown.
Q: Oh I see. Well. (chuckles) Yes sir.
A: Yes.
Q: What part of Ireland is that?
A: Well that was up towards the north I guess. You know I'd have to see a map to - I really don't know. 2
Q: You haven't visited there?
A: No I have not.
Q: Do you recall him speaking of .
A: Not a great deal. My father was a very quiet man and a very devoutly religious man. He went to work at five o'clock in the morning and he came back at noon and he laid down until three o'clock. And then he went back to work and then he came back at six o'clock, or after six o'clock it was really, it'd be six-thirty. And then on occasion he had to go back to work at night if there was church service, you know, until eight-thirty or nine o'clock. And so he never talked a great deal. We didn't get much chance and he died when I was twelve years old.
Q: When you were twelve years old?
A: Right.
Q: And what occupation was this?
A: He was the sexton, if you know what kind of a job that is, at the Holy Name Cathedral.
Q: Oh? And that's on the near north side.
A: Also, right, that's correct.
Q: So your family is Catholic.
A: That's correct.
Q: You don't recall him saying much about the old country then?
A: No he didn't. As near as I could find out, when he came to the United States he kind of settled in the East. New Haven, Connecticut, was a city that he had mentioned. And then he came on into the city of Chicago. And what year he got here I don't know, but he worked at the church for thirty-three years. And he died in 1924. So he was employed there in the 1800's, the late 1800's.
Q: Did you know his parents?
A: No. I didn't know anything about his family at alL
Q: I see. What was your mother's name?
A: Philbin. She came from County Mayo.
Q: Also from Ireland.
A: Ireland, that's correct.
Q: Had they met in Ireland?
A: No apparently not. They met here and my mother was about twenty or thirty years younger than my father. My father didn't get married until he was fifty, over fifty years of age. And there's eight children. I'm a twin. I have a twin sister. There were six boys and two girls in the family. 3
Q: Did you know your mother's parents at all?
A: No I did not. I met a couple of her sisters, but I didn't know her father and her mother. They naturally remained in Ireland.
Q: Did the sisters come here too then?
A: Yes.
Q: To Chicago?
A: Right.
Q: How about your father's brothers or sisters?
A: Never heard of any of them, didn't know whether he had any brothers or sisters or not.
Q: I'll be darned. Let's see, you were a twin you said?
A: Right. I am a twin.
Q: What- is it a sister or a brother?
A: Twin sister.
Q: Twin sister. And what is her name?
A: Mary.
Q: Mary. Who are the other brothers and sisters?
A: Well I have a sister Anne and I have a brother John - he's deceased; a brother, Joseph Patrick, who's still alive. I have a brother, Vincent. I have a sister, Anne, as I mentioned. And I had a younger brother, Dennis, who died. And a younger brother Francis who died.
Q: And are those that are living still in Chicago here?
A: Yes. Yes all of us stayed in Chicago.
Q: So you really don't know too much about your family background as far as the old country is concerned.
A: No I don't, no I don't. My sister, Mary, went to Ireland and she went to County Mayo. And there's an expression, "County Mayo, God help us." And she said, "You know that expression,'God help us'?" And I said yes. She said, "Well if you saw Mayo," she said, "they mean it. It's a prayer," she said. It's a very rural type of community.
Q: Have you had a desire to go and visit?
A: I've been to Ireland twice and didn't stay very long. I was in the military service at the time and once we flew into Dublin and we stayed in Dublin overnight, the next day we rented a car and drove over to Shannon and stayed at a very beautiful castle there, Dromolen Castle. It's converted into a hotel-type of operation by a wealthy contractor from St. Louis, Missouri. It's really a beautiful place. He did a great job of it. We stayed there overnight and then flew back to the States the next morning. And on the other occasion, I flew into Shannon and flew out the same day. So I didn't have much time there. But this time we 4 were in Dublin overnight and in Shannon overnight, why, I did get to see some of what you might call a city, Dublin. It's very old. I was amazed at the antiquity you know. But when you reflect upon it you can understand it. And it seemed to me that every other store was a bank.
Q: Oh is that right? (chuckles)
A: And they were stores not much larger than some of our grocery stores or drugstores here you know. And I never saw that amount of wealth to try to understand or equate the neces• sity or the durability or viability of so many banks.
Q: I suppose this was an international banking?
A: I really don't know. I just said, "Look at all these banks that they have over here."
Q: Well what do you remember of the home in which you were born?
A: Nothing.
Q: Did the family move from that home?
A: Oh yes. We didn't own the home. We rented flats. And of course my dad, Lord rest his soul, he must have had a problem renting because he had so many children. And of course the community was full of kids as I recall. Every apartment had four, five, six children. And the streets were full of kids. I never saw anything like it until here a couple of years ago I went to Israel. And Israel is a country of children. You know, it's very no• ticeable, you know. So we moved from one location to another but in the same general area.
Q: Was the ethnic makeup generally Irish in that area?
A: There was a large Irish group in there yes.
Q: Were there other ethnic groups that you associated with?
A: Yes, yes, there were Germans and there were Swedes and there were Italians. One black family as I recall.
Q: What do you recall of life in the flats there?
A: Well you know I can recall we didn't have hot water, and we didn't have electric or gas stoves, it was coal or woodburning stoves and Saturday night was quite an operation.
Q: I'll bet.
A: You know, with all the pots with water on a coalburning stove and one kid after another getting a bath. (chuckles)
Q: Yes sir. With all the children there, were there playgrounds around that you ...
A: Well yes there was a playground. One played quite a role in my life because I subse• quently became the manager of the playground. And that was Lake Shore Park at the foot of Chicago Avenue and the Lake. And all of us went down there. I have pictures of all of us sitting around the little fountain that they had there. The woman who managed the place, and she was an instructor, she took the picture. And then you know then to think that later on I became the manager was an unusual kind of a situation.
Q: About how old were you when the picture was taken? 5
A: Well I was very young when the picture was taken. I would hazard a guess just looking, I was probably somewhere around four or five.
Q: Oh?
A: Yes.
Q: What types of things did you do in the park there?
A: Well the activities there were softball and track and basketball and baseball, ice skating, tennis. At the time the picture was taken, of course that time was spent on the swings and the slides and playground apparatus.
Q: Yes. Was this formally organized so that they had teams and
A: Oh yes. Yes they had a professional staff and they organized people in order to give everybody an opportunity. Different age groups would have certain hours for the formal program. Of course you could go there any time, but to be in the formal program, they had a scheduled period of time.
Q: What was the first formal activity you got involved in there?
A: Well it was a gym class that, oh, a gymnasium instructor put us through calisthentics and marching and so forth.
Q: Was this at cost or
A: No it was free.
Q: It was free.
A: It was paid for by taxes.
Q: Did you do much playing in the streets of kickball or kick the can?
A: Yes we had rollerskating. We didn't have the automobiles to the extent you have today. You know when I tell somebody to try to imagine this street without a car parked at the curb, that this street would be completely without cars, they look at me and I said, "Well I saw that." And I saw that. There were no highrises, there were gray stone. I saw this complete transition. I don't know how familiar you are with North Michigan Avenue but you know you've heard of the Water Tower Place, you know where Lord and Taylor and Marshall Fields have their stores. I can remember when there was just a billboard along there and immediately behind the billboard were tennis courts.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Right.
Q: Gee whiz. Well now that would have been horse-and-buggy days I guess then in nineteen and ...
A: Yes yes there were a lot of horse-and-buggy carts in those days. And your teaming companies, so-called, had horse-drawn wagons where they delivered manufactured goods and produce and everything. There weren't many trucks around. And the streetcars, they were on rails, they didn't have buses.
Q: The streetcars went through your area then? 6
A: Oh yes, yes. State Street, Clark Street. Michigan Avenue had buses.
Q: And these were regular horse-drawn cars then?
A: No. The buses were gasoline or diesel. The streetcars were operated by electric, they had a trolley up across the top. They were what they called trolley cars.
Q: Was the El [Elevated Train] in operation at that time? I guess it was.
A: Yes it was, right.
Q: Did it go near your home?
A: Well at one time when I lived on Wells Street it went right by in back of our place.
Q: Rather noisy.
A: Well not as much as you would think. And one, I think, becomes pretty much accus• tomed to that and it doesn't bother you.
Q: Well let's see, there must have been a good deal of delivery to the homes, such as ice and coal and that sort of thing.
A: That's correct, right.
Q: And all this, or most of this, was done with the horses and the wagons.
A: That's correct.
Q: Were there stables in the area where they .
A: Oh yes yes. Yes there were stables in the area. There was a stable where Loyola Uni• versity is right now at Pearson and Rush. There was a stable at State and Oak. As a mat• ter of fact our ward headquarters is in the building where there at one time was a stable.
Q: Oh is that right? It has just been remodeled then?
A: That's right.
Q: I'll be doggoned. Did your father have a horse of his own?
A: No no. No we never had any automobiles or horses, just kids.
Q: I see, yes sir. (chuckles) How far did you live from the church where he worked?
A: Well at varying times it would be three blocks, four blocks. Then at one time it was about twelve blocks. And then about nine blocks.
Q: What did, at that time, the task of sextant require?
A: Well what he would do, he would get there and he would ring the bell for any church services. He would see to it that the vestments that the priests wore during the mass and the services were laid out and when the priests were through with them, he'd put them back into the drawer and so forth. And the Cathedral, being the principal church of the diocese, you know, you have the archbishop there which means there's a lot more services being con• ducted there than you'd have at the other churches and they're on a grander scale or, you know, more sophisticated services there than you would have at some of the others. And 7
he would see to it that the, oh, candles were burning, that the candles were replaced as they burned out and things like that. That's kind of what he did. He didn't do any of the mop• ping or that kind of stuff.
Q: So evidently from very early in the morning, since he got up at five until about noon, there was quite a bit of activity at the church.
A: Oh yes every day.
Q: And then it would quiet down.
A: As a matter of fact he never had a day off for thirty-three years.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: Not a day off. He never wanted one.
Q: Oh is that right?
A: As I say, he was a very devout man. You know, he just loved to be in the church. He prayed so very much. Even we prayed as kids at home. We had a little altar and before we went to bed at night we all knelt down and said devotions.
Q: With him?
A: Oh yes.
Q: I suppose your mother was involved with this also?
A: Oh yes, everybody was.
Q: Did she attend church regularly then during the week?
A: No. She did on Sunday, but she didn't during the week, you know she had all the kids to take care of.
Q: Too much to do?
A: Right.
Q: Yes sir. (chuckles)
A: Yes.
Q: What was your first involvement with the church? As altar boy?
A: That's right, when I was a student in the school I became an altar boy.
Q: So you went to the Catholic school there?
A: Right.
Q: Was there a kindergarten arrangement?
A: Not in those days.
Q: So you started right in in the first grade. 8
A: That's right.
Q: Was there one particular teacher for the first grade or were there more?
A: Yes they had a sister, a nun, for each class.
Q: Do you remember your first grade teacher?
A: No not that I can recall. I can remember the fourth grade teacher.
Q: What was so significant about her?
A: Well you know - as you point out, how come you could single one out here and there ~ it was because of her personality and, you know, her jocular manner and so forth. The others were nice but she was ~ you know. And the seventh grade teacher had a very beautiful voice. And she could sing when she wanted to and teach the children to sing. Those two of course remain the main power within memory.
Q: Did you become a good singer?
A: No. (laughs)
Q: No? (chuckles) You didn't sing in the church choir then?
A: No.
Q: What did you think of school when you started? Did you enjoy going to school?
A: Well I never gave it much thought as to whether I should enjoy it or not. I just accepted it as being something that had to be done, and I did it.
Q: What did you like most about school?
A: I liked recess enough. (chuckles)
Q: Yes sir.
A: And I liked three o'clock.
Q: I suppose. (chuckles)
A: It was alright but you know I don't know that I liked anything particularly better than the other.
Q: You weren't particularly an assiduous student then?
A: No I was not. You know I was an average student. I just went along with the program.
Q: Do you remember any particular courses that you particularly liked, like history over mathematics or ...
A: No. Of course it wasn't mathematics in those days you know. It was arithmetic.
Q: Yes sir.
A: And I don't know that there was any one class or subject that I liked better than the other. 9
Q: What about activities such as drama? Did you get involved in plays and that sort of thing?
A: Yes I did in school. I played in different plays that they had.
Q: Were you any good as an actor?
A: Well I guess I was. I liked it and I had roles you know, and the principal said of me, "Why he'll end up in Hollywood."
Q: Oh? (chuckles) Did you ever think that you might want to do that?
A: Not particularly. You see, the economics at the time became very rough. You know my father died, as I said, in 1924 when I was twelve years old, eleven years old. And it got a little bit rough. I can recall one time, there was no public aid at that time, they were going to evict the family for not paying the rent. So you know, we were all out hustling every way we possibly could. I delivered newspapers from third grade on you know. And really the way I got into politics was absolutely an almost unbelievable situation. You know, a man whom I knew that lived in the community came to our house one day and said to my mother, "I want to have one of your boys come over to Russ's grocery tomorrow after he gets out of school and I'll give him a little job to do and I'll give him a dollar." Boy, a dollar in those days was a large sum of money. And so I happened to be standing there and my mother said, "George, you hearing Mr. Barrett here? You go over there tomorrow now." I said, "Yes ma'am."
So when I got out of school I went over to the grocery store and I walked in and the grocery store was almost completely changed. And I didn't think I was in the grocery store. They had a lot of curtains up at booths and there was people sitting at a table and - you know. He was standing there and he called me over and he said, "Now I want you to take these pieces of paper to these homes and you give them to the person they're addressed to." And I looked them over and they were all right around our block, and I knew the kids of the family. And I said okay. I said, "Just give them to them?" "Just give them to them, that's all." So I did. And I came back and he gave me a dollar. And oh boy, that was great.
And then another time some months later he came again and we did the same thing. And I got to know that this was election you know. And the slips I was taking was to tell the people they had not voted and to be sure to come over before five o'clock, in those days the polls closed at five o'clock. And it had the names of the candidates on the back of this thing. And so each election I would go over there and I would do this.
And as I got older, he'd have me doing more things. Putting up signs. And then ultimately he had me going out and talking to the voters before the election you know. And he would pay me for this. And so I just became one day a precinct captain myself. And I was only about seventeen years old at the time. So I've been in politics, not realizing it, at that early stage in life. But in those days there were very few, if any, Democratic officeholders. They were all Republicans. And as I said the economics of the day were very very rough. You know we had a tough time. So when Henry Horner became governor, and I was still a young man, I got the job as a manager of the playground.
Q: Oh'? This Mr. Barrett now -was he a precinct captain at that time?
A: Yes right.
Q: And how about your father? Of course you were rather young but do you recall him discussing anything at all about politics? 10
A: No never.
Q: He didn't seem to be interested?
A: He never ...
Q: How about your mother?
A: Never.
Q: Neither one?
A: My older brothers, no.
Q: Well! How about at school? Was there any particular interest developed in school in that sort of thing?
A: Well I was kind of a gregarious guy I guess you'd say. I helped organize the CYO [Catho• lic Youth Organization] Club in the parish. It was called CYO Club Number 1 because it was the Cathedral Parish. I was the president of that club. And we did things, we put on minstrel shows and things of that kind. So I suppose in that sense, political activities came right on. We all talked about politics you know, about the different people in the com• munity who held public office and so forth.
Q: Were there any of those that impressed you during your teenage years let's say?
A: Well of course Senator Connors was a man who played a very major role in my life. That's his picture back there. (points to wall of office) He was a state senator and he was the Democratic leader of the senate when Stevenson was governor. He was the ward committeeman of the ward and I succeeded him as committeeman. It was he who told me I should run for the legislature. And I didn't want to, I wasn't particularly interested in it. And so I did it and then ultimately I became the leader down there in the house. I was glad that he was still alive while I was the leader because he helped me and I think he was kind of satisfied with the way I developed - his daughter went to school at the Holy Name and she was in the same class as one of my sisters. And they were friends you know.
Q: This is Dorsey is it?
A: That's right. And when we were going to be evicted, it was Senator Connors who held up the eviction. He contacted - as a matter of fact, he contacted Mr. Barrett and said, "Hey, what in the hell are you doing?" You know, "Are you going to put that Dunne family out on the street?" You know. He said, "You better not do that," he said. So he didn't. And then he helped my sister get a job and that helped bring money into the house and you know . . .
Q: When did you first know of Mr. Connors?
A: Well of course I knew of Mr. Conners - didn't know him personally but I knew Dorsey Connors, you know, as a child, and that her father was Mr. Connors who was in public life. And then when I was working for Mr. Barrett in the precinct you know and so forth, they'd have a meeting and he'd say, "Well come up to the meeting." And I went up to the meeting and then I got acquainted with - with Mr. Connors. He was not a public official at that time. He was the Democratic ward committeeman. And ultimately he ran for the house of representatives. And after being elected to the house, then he ran for the senate. And he asked me - I was working at the time for Schoffield Flowers. I don't know whether you ever heard of Schoffield Flowers. Well Schoffield Flower Shop is the shop that 11 was partially owned by Dean ()'Bannon. I don't know whether that name rings a bell to you or not.
Q: No sir, I'm afraid not.
A: Well Dean O'Bannon was one of these bootlegger types who was shot down in his flower shop.
Q: Oh I see.
A: And then in front of this flower shop there were, oh, several people killed one time. And I used to work in this flower shop, like at Easter and at Christmas. Or I would deliver flowers. You know, I'd get twenty-five cents to deliver a plant someplace and get on the streetcar and deliver it.
SESSION 1, TAPE 1, SIDE 2
A: And on the occasion of which I became a precinct captain - it was around one of the holidays and Schoffield called me and said, "Look, work a couple of days." And so 1 would go over there and work. And on this occasion he had the job of putting in the floral decora• tions in the cathedral. So I was over there working with the designer and so forth, putting the plants here and so forth. And Mr. Barrett came in. He had been over to Schoffield's Flower Shop looking for me and they told him, "Well he's over working in the church." So he came over and he said that Mr. Connors wanted to talk to me. He said to be at the ward headquarters at such and such a night. So I went up there and I saw him. And so he said to me, he said, "I want you to take over that precinct over there, Burns' precinct." I said, "Well whatever you say." I said, "What's the matter with Jimmy Burns?" And he said, "Well he's going to run against me." I said, "Alright fine, I'll take the precinct." So I took the precinct and worked it you know. Then he moved me from one precinct to another and - as the need arose - and that's how it happened.
Q: I understand he didn't particularly care for the nickname, but he got the nickname Botchy for some reason.
A: He didn't care for it. Nobody called him that with the exception of one person that I know of. And that was Charlie Cleveland. Do you know Charlie?
Q: The newspaperman?
A: Yes. Charlie covered Springfield for the Daily News. And the senator and Charlie had a very good relationship. And he never paid any attention to that from him but he wouldn't tolerate it from anyone. As a matter of fact, I think it was Mr. Knight who owned the Daily News and he knew Mr. Knight and one day they referred to him as Botchy in the paper. And he called up Mr. Knight and raised hell with him and said, "I thought you told me you'd never use that. And I was displeased with that." So what had happened, Mr. Knight had issued the order not to do it, and I guess somebody inadvertently did do it. That's what triggered this conversation. But it never happened after that. And I asked him one day, I said, "Why - what does the word 'Botchy' mean?'' "I really don't know," he said, "but," he said, "it has kind of a connotation it would be something like a pimp or somebody who would take money from somebody for a job," he said. And he was a very high-principled guy you know.
I'll never forget one time he helped an Irishm Q: I'll be darned. A: He was quite a man. Q: Still had cuspidors around at that date then? A: Yes. Well he smoked cigars. And at that time - it was in the bailiff's office. He was a chief deputy bailiff of the municipal court. And it was in that office that that took place. Q: Well I'll be darned. Well let's see now - you went to Catholic grade school. Did you go on then to a Catholic high school? A: I went out to de La Salle, which was a Catholic high school on the south side. Q: Did you commute to there? A: Yes I took the elevated out there to Thirty-fifth Street. And I didn't graduate from there because of the economics of the time. And I went to work with the park. And then quite coincidentally we worked with Northwestern University in the establishment of a course that never really got off the ground. It was sociology, psychology and education. We were trying to establish a college-level for ... (taping stopped for narrator to respond to a summons by Mayor Washington, then resumed on next tape.) SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 1 A: ... at Northwestern in sociology, psychology and education. And they were going to carry on but they never did. Q: Was this a selected group of high school students to do this? A: No, no, this was a group of people who - many of them had already had degrees. They were recreation leaders. And they were people from the parks. It was for the purpose of establishing this supplemental education to assist them in their pursuits in this area. Q: How long did you go to the high school? A: I went out to the high school for about two and a half years. Q: What did you think of the high school curriculum? A: Well I thought that it was, alright. Christian brothers were the teachers there. And they were pretty rugged. But it was alright though, there wasn't anything too bad about it. I later became a schoolteacher. Q: Oh is that right? 13 A: Yes. During the war I went to OCS [Officers Candidate Schooll and I was commissioned before my class. And I was put on the staff as a teacher. Q: Oh I see. A: And I didn't want it but they said you're it. So ... and so I attended the OCS there and then I put in a little stint in Industrial War College. Q: When you - well, what reason was there for not going beyond the two and a half years there? A: Economics. (chuckles) Q: You had to get out and make money? How did you get the job with the park? A: Senator Connors. He called me in and - as I said I was active with the CYO and we promoted and organized baseball and softball and we played at different sections of the city. You know in those days people didn't have automobiles and things like they have now, so Sunday and Saturday was a day that - of course a lot of people who had jobs worked on Saturdays, they worked a six-day week. But Sundays was a day that was set aside for baseball. And so I would be going from location to location and seeing to it that the games were being played and get the scores and so on and so forth. And because of the interest in athletics the senator felt that here's a guy that we ought to put in charge of this play• ground stuff. Q: I see. A: Horner was elected ~overnor. And apparently he spoke to the governor and so when they made a change - it was under the Lincoln Park Board of Commissioners. And when a change of administration came in, they removed the fellow that was there and appointed me. Q: Now was Governor Horner involved with the parks then at that time? A: Yes, see at that time in the city of Chicago 1 think there were nineteen separate park districts. And Lincoln Park District came under the governor. He appointed the commissioners. And so when he became governor he appointed a board of commissioners and when that took place, why, then I guess Senator Connors talked to the governor and he dropped a note or something I presume at that time to the members of the board and I went in and I was interviewed and then I was appointed. Q: Did you ever meet Governor Horner? A: I can't recall. I think I did but not of any significance you know. Q: Well let's see, about what year did you start officially as a precinct captain. Was that ... A: Well I can't give you the exact time. I can recall - well certainly I was a precinct cap• tain when Roosevelt ran against Hoover. That was in 1932. I was active in precinct work before that. You know, as I said I started out doing these tasks as a younJ{ster and just worked into it. Q: Yes. Now do you recall any of the particular campaigns, like here in the city, let's see, it would have been Bill Thompson I believe ran against Cermak was it in ... 14 A: He ran against Cermak and he ran ~~ then, there was a contest between Dever ~ Dever ran. And then of course Kelly succeeded Cermak you know. And I was active at that time working in the precinct. Q: Did you get to meet Cermak at that time? did you know him? A: No I never ~ I never did get to meet Cermak. Q: How about Kelly? A: Oh yes I knew Mayor Kelly. Q: Oh you did then? A: Oh yes. Q: Did he come from your area? A: No he was from the south side. I'll never forget one time ~ I had a brother, Pat. And my brother, Pat, was very active in the field of aviation. And he was appointed by Mayor Kelly to be the manager of Midway Airport. Q: Well. A: And not through me or politics, but from the aviation end of it. But I'll never forget one day, Mayor Kelly came up to the Forty-second Ward to deliver a speech, was during one of his campaigns, and I used to be like an usher. I'd be standing at the door and I'd escort people to a seat, you know trying to make myself useful. So I was standing at the top of the stairs and Mayor Kelly came up and he said, "Oh Pat," he said, "how are you?" I said, "What!" (chuckles) "Oh George," he said, "I'm so sorry," he said. So I said, "Alright come on in," see. So the policeman started to escort him up and I said, "No let him escort himself up," I said, "He called me Pat." And he said to me later, he said, "Geez, I'm sorry about that." See, Pat was older than I was. (laughter) Q: Well. (chuckles) So how long did he work at Midway there? A: Well Pat worked at Midway for many years and then of course when they started to plan O'Hare, he represented the city in the planning of it and then ultimately became the manager of O'Hare and then ultimately became the commissioner of aviation of Chicago. And he retired about four years ago. Q: So he's had ~ right along parallel to you in the A: Yes but Pat was not a politician. You know, he worked for the city but he was a pro. You know there are certain positions ~ as I'm sure you can understand - take a superintendent of highways, you know, director of public works. These people are profes• sional people and you know that's the category he was in. Q: Where did he get his aviation experience? A: Well he joined the 108th Observation Squadron which was stationed out at Midway and he went in as a private and he got interested in parachute jumping and he used to do delayed jumps you know. Oh, he knew all about the characteristics of aircraft, the engines, the weight load and so on and so forth. And he was in the service in the Air Corps and then in the aviation field and so forth. And as it turned out he and I were in the same outfit after a while because after World War II I joined the air national guard here and we were called up in the Korean War and he and I were in the same outfit. So we had a lot of fun. 15 Q: I'll be darned. Did you do any flying back in the 1930's. A: No no I didn't do any flying at all. I was Q: It didn't rub off on you then, the . A: No. Oh I enjoyed flying and things like that you know. But I didn't go in to be a pilot. Q: I see. Well let's see now, could you just describe what your objectives were as a precinct captain. What ... A: Well as a matter of fact I had no ambitions to be a public official. You know I was very pleased and happy with my work in the park district. I love children and it was just great. I worked for the park district for twenty-nine years. When I left there I was the assistant general superintendent of the park district. I served in many varied capacities and enjoyed every second of it. As a matter of fact I didn't want to leave there. And Mayor Daley called me and he said, "I want you to go on the county board." And I said, "I don't want to go on the county board." And he had a meeting of the executive committee, and I attended the meeting and I told him I didn't want it, I was satisfied. And boy, he was furious with me. And we went out in the outer room, he and Joe Gill and myself. And he said, "I've got a resolution here." And I said well fine. And he said, "You're going to be the chairman of the finance committee of the county board." I said, "Mr. Mayor .. ." And he said, "Do you know how many people in Chicago would like to be there?" I said, "That's fine, you'll have no problem getting somebody else." Well to make a long story short, I left the park district and came over as the chairman of the finance committee. And then when Ogilvie resigned to become governor, they elected me to fill the unexpired term. And I told them I didn't want it. And he said, "You're it." And so I became the president and I've been reelected three or four times since. Q: Yes sir. Well how did you go about - in the 1930's now - go about being a precinct captain? What types of things did you do? A: Well you know, I did as I told you, passing out these things early, and then subsequently I tacked up the posters and the cards on telegraph poles, on sides of buildings and so forth. And I circulated brochures and things of that kind. I attended meetings, I listened to the candidates. Then when I passed out the brochures I would read them and I would relate to the people the information that I knew and what I had heard and so forth. And I gave them my address. They knew me, they knew where I lived and so forth. And if I could be of service to them, please let me know. They would call me and I would do what• ever I could for them. In those days there were a lot of people that weren't citizens and "Where do I go?" a lot of it referral-type of services. Some people who were seeking jobs that we were able to be of assistance to. By virtue of being of service to the people and being in touch with them, you'd find out what they were thinking and what they thought there ought to be going on in the community and things of that kind. And I just - not everyone I don't think is - got the chemistry to be a precinct captain or precinct worker. You know I had the door slammed in my face many times, it didn't bother me, but some people couldn't take that you know. And it came about because you'd run into people who I'd classify as "iron-assed Republicans," you know. Well, fine, I respect• ed their right to do that, but I wouldn't slam the door in anybody's face hecause they hap• pened to be Republican and I'm a Democrat. Rut you know you get to know the characteristics of people. And you respect - if you have the basic tenets of democracy, you respect what they are without feeling animosity towards them you know. People have as much intelligence as you have in their own right , in their own way, and they can come to their own conclusions in a proper way and you have to respect that. The thing, in the 16 final analysis, is the majority think this way, or the majority think that way. And it's the majority that we go by. The minority should be heard, but the majority should rule. And so the thing is that if you like people and you enjoy being with them and you take such a satisfaction out of helping them, it would seem to me that you're a type of person who's a natural for the field of politics. Q: And you enjoyed that type of work and you fit right in. A: Oh yes. Q: Let's see, was that - I'm not sure - was Paul Randolph in that same ... on the Repub• lican side? A: Yes, Paul was the same district. Q: Did you have a problem at the beginning of the 1930's with the area being mostly Repub• lican at that time and then the transition to the ... A: Right. I don't say we had a problem, it was a challenge you know. You know the whole thing started to fall - as I said, there weren't any Democratic officeholders. I can recall when a ward meeting would be held in the back of a real estate office and twenty chairs was sufficient enough to carry - even though you had seventy precincts, you'd have twenty people in there you know. And gradually they won a couple of offices and, gee, people began to come over and so on and so forth. And that's how it happened. And when Roosevelt came along, he was a great boost. Q: Do you think that was the major emphasis behind A: Yes I do. If you recall - or maybe you don't - where he closed all of the banks, and where he developed the CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] and he brought about the insur• ance on bank deposits and the security exchange regulations and there was a tremendous amount of confidence that people had in government as a result of these things that he brought about. Of course he had a good personality both on the radio and in TV [television] with his manner, the sound of his voice, and so forth. People were attracted to him. And in those days people if they'd go to the top of the ticket, they didn't care who was underneath it. They were interested in the top of the ticket you know. That's not the case today. People have greater selectivity capability. You have a higher IQ [intelligence quo• tient] across your electorate you know. So what you have to do today in politics, the political parties have to promote candidates that are salable. You know they often talk about the political organization or machine dominating everything you know, well, that's not true. If you study and look over the various selections you'll find here and there candidates have lost, and the reason they lost, they were not a salable product. It's like a retail merchant, if he's got good merchandise, he'll sell, and if he hasn't, he's not going to sell. That's the same way today in politics. Q: And you say it wasn't so much that way back then? A: No and I think that it wasn't that way so much then was because of the IQ, if I can use that, of the total population. The college graduate wasn't as numerous as they are today, and so forth you know. You had a lot of first-generation foreign born. And you know they were looking and they were beholding to the political individual. Now their chil• dren handle a lot of things for them that the politicians handled years ago. And so you've got this entirely different change. And we're going through another change, we're going through another change now. You know, if you go back to the days, the early days of Chicago, the dominant ethnic group as 17 time went on became the dominant political leader. And that's not necessarily true as far as the Irish is concerned, because they were never the dominant ethnic group, but they had the capability of being gregarious and being friendly with everybody and nobody was partic• ularly mad at them and so they were able to coalesce the different groups and get themselves elected to office. And in those days I don't believe that the cohesiveness of the ethnic groups were as great as it is today as far as the racial groups are concerned. And they would, and could be, influ• enced by a leader of another ethnic group as long as there was a sympathetic understanding and desire to be of help to that ethnic group. But now today you're coming upon a situation where the dominant group is black, and a lot of people don't want to accept that. But they accepted the fact that there was dominant Poles and Italians and everything else in the past you know, why shouldn't they accept the realities of life here? You know I say to my col• leagues, "Listen, wake up." You know. "The black person is like the airplane and women. They're here to stay, you know. It's not something that's going to be passing through. We should all live together and as the Man from the Good Book says, 'Love one another.' And if you do, this is going to be great." And that's what we, in the political sector should be striving to bring about. As a matter of fact, I think that anybody whether he's an educator or an industrialist or a labor leader or a doctor or a lawyer, the leaders in those various disciplines should all work together towards bringing about this integration of the blacks and the whites in every field of endeavor and give them every complete opportunity for ascendency to positions of leadership. Q: And you had none of that, I guess, in the 1930's, that part of it involved anyway? A: No, no, no, none whatsoever. But there's a greater challenge today and it depends upon whether we can measure up to it or not. Q: And you think we will in the end? A: We have to, we have to. Q: Let's see, we mentioned Mayor Kelly. How well did you get to know Pat Nash back then? A: Well I'll tell you, I met Pat Nash a couple of times. And he on one occasion said, "My God, what we need is more George Dunne's around here." (chuckles) I was just a kid you know. I was introduced to him by Colonel Arvey. It was in the Democratic headquarters at the Morrison Hotel. I don't know what reason I was there, to pick up some forms or supplies or something, and I was talking to Colonel Arvey and Mr. Nash went down the hall and he says, "Pat," he said, "I want you to meet George Dunne," he said. "You've prob• ably heard me speak of him." "Indeed I have heard you speak about him, you and Bill Connors." And, "How are you young fellow?" And he said, "What we need is more guys like you around here," he said. (chuckles) Q: So evidently you were closer to Colonel Arvey then than you were to Pat Nash? A: Oh yes yes. I later worked for Colonel Arvey. He was a park commissioner, a Chicago park commissioner, and I was very fortunate. I acquired more knowledge I think in the field of public service, in a professional sense, through my association with Colonel Arvey and George Donahue, who was the general superintendent of the park district, and James Gately, who was the president, and Bill McPretridge, who was the vice-president of the Chicago park district, and a man by the name of Joe Cremmin, and little Jack Levin. And I was privileged to attend skull session meetings with these men when they were talking about, oh, contractors and the whole thing of operating government. I was so fortunate to have that exposure. These men were high-principled, dedicated people as far as government 18 was concerned, and here I was in here, you know, being exposed to this. And they say that you acquire characteristics through association. And I'm telling you, I was very lucky. I have great admiration for Colonel Arvey, tremendous man. Q: Do you think they were intentionally exposing you to this type of thing? A: No no, I worked for them, and I would be in there and carrying out my functions. And in return, not asking me for any input, but they would say, "George, see that this is done, and that's done." And I'd say okay and so forth, you know. But I could tell by listening to the opinions of the people something about their character and so forth you know. And they were all fairly honest decent people. Q: Well now there developed quite a rift between Kelly-Nash and Governor Horner. Which side did you wind up on in that conflict? A: Well I was with Bundesen. I was with Kelly. You see, Senator Connors was with the Kelly faction. And our candidate was Bundesen. And Henry Horner defeated Bundesen. Q: How did you feel about that? A: How did I feel about it? Q: Yes. A: Well I didn't enjoy being with a loser you know. As the guy said, "Whether you win or lose, but it's all the better if you win." But I had a personal admiration for Henry Horner, you know, and I had an admiration for Bundesen. You know he was the head of the health department and I had met him a couple of times, he was a fine man. And so it was just an unfortunate situation that these two people were running against each other. Q: What was the feeling in your district there, among the people you were working with, in regard to the major issues that came up? Like, I believe one of them was Kelly and Nash wanted to open up horse racing or something, betting, throughout the town. A: Well I can tell you this, that you had book joints all over the town. It wasn't that they wanted to do it, it was there. Q: They wanted to legalize it some way. A: No they didn't even want to legalize it. They just - it was there, you know. And it was a situation where you'd have book joints, two in a block. I know in our community there was quite a number of book joints. Q: And they just operated openly even though it was A: Oh it was - you know, nobody had any problems with it. (chuckles) It was an accepted way of life. I remember one time a fellow came in to see Senator Connors and he said, "Senator," he said, "they closed me up yesterday." And Connors said, "Yes, well what about it?" "Well what the hell," he said, "I go along." He said, "Hey, do you think what you're doing is honest? Do you think what you're doing is legal? Hell," he said, "that's illegal. They could close anybody up." He said, "Where did you get this idea?" "Well," he said, "they ought to let me go." (chuckles) Q: Did he get it back for him? A: I think the guy probably ultimately did get reopened you know. 19 Q: At that time were you involved in any strategy meetings or anything to support any issues like that? A: No no, we were - the program would be brought out to us and we took it and went with it. The same way with the candidates. They were brought out and we took them and went with them. Q: Did you ever support any of the candidates that you didn't feel like you ought to be sup• porting? A: Oh yes yes yes. Q: Oh you did? A: Yes. Q: Any particular ones that . A: Well there were a couple of people who I felt were totally dishonest and so forth. But I went along with the organization, I didn't espouse those people when I talked to voters, I would espouse the people that you could with respect. And generally these people lost too. Q: Oh? A: That's what I said before, if you have a product you know, people will always say - it was mostly the press - they would say that, "Well the machine, so-called, they can elect anybody." They can't. Q: Do you remember discussing any of that with Senator Connors? A: Oh yes. We would talk about the fact, "What do you think of this bum?'' you know. He'd say, "He's right, he is a bum. He shouldn't be on there," you know. And in• variably he wouldn't invite that person to our meetings. He would select the people who would come out. Q: Did any of them show resentment at that to him? A: Well I never got into that. They may have shown resentment to him. But I would doubt it, he was a pretty rough guy. They - a lot of people didn't want to get too near him you know. Q: Well. (chuckles) When he went on down to the legislature, did you get involved in sup• porting issues or anything that he was supporting in the legislature? A: Well, see, he didn't get into a prominant role there until Stevenson became governor. And Stevenson had programs that were unique and new and so forth. And it was Bill's job to sell them to a somewhat recalcitrant senate. They only had, I think, thir• teen votes in the senate. He carried every program for Stevenson and it was a pretty rough go. Q: Did you have much relationship with Paul Randolph at that time? I believe he was working ... A: Well you know, I had a passing relationship with him, but nothing of any intimate - you know. 20 SESSION 1, TAPE 2, SIDE 2 Q: You had no problems with him at all? A: I never had any problems with him. Q: Did you work together on any particular things that came up, issues or things that . A: Well in the legislature I'm sure that we were on the same side on many instances. But politically we were always on the opposite side. Q: What about the Loop area? I understand down in the 1930's yet there were still a lot of political rallies and things that went on, much more than goes on now in downtown Chicago. Was that true in your experience? A: Well you know there used to be a great torchlight parade in a presidential campaign when Roosevelt ran and when Truman ran, you know, Kennedy ran. That hasn't been going on. Oh, we'd have rallies up around the Medina Temple and a parade down Michigan Ave• nue to Ohio Street but not through the Loop. Q: As a precinct captain, did you get involved with fundraising projects? A: No not to any extent. Q: Where did the money for the precinct come from that - any money that you needed'? For example, oh, if someone needed something, was there a political kitty that you could go to? A: No I generally worked that out myself. You know, you'd - somebody needed a couple of dollars and you had it, you gave it to them you know. I can remember one time at Christ• mas, I guess it was, I raffied off a ten dollar gold piece to raise some funds to give Christmas baskets. And Connors said to me, he said, "George, that's a nice thing you're doing," he said, "but it's a mistake." Q: Oh? A: And I said, "Why do you say that?" And he said, "Well," he said, "I'll tell you what," he said, "you won't please the people." So as it turned out, he was right. What I did, I bought loins of pork. I couldn't afford turkeys. But we had vegetables and canned goods and we had all these things and we used the hall and we made up the baskets you know. So on Christmas morning people came over and knocked on the door, a couple of them called to say thank you but more people said to me, "How come Mrs. so-and-so got a loin of pork that was ten pounds and mine was only six pounds." And I said, "Well she has more people in her family." "I should have got the same as she did," you know. And I was amazed you know. And I said to the senator, I said, "You know you were right." "George," he said, "you know, you can't do those things," he said. "You can do it quietly with one family here that needs it and one family there that needs it as against a general distribution, because you'll get more people mad at you than what you will otherwise." So I stopped that. Q: What kind of WPA [Works Progress Administration] work went on in the district? A: Well there were projects, you know, that - sewer projects, alley projects, and stuff like that that went on. Q: Were there any particular ones that you got involved with? 21 A: No not that I recall. The city, of course, was the supervisors of these, they hired people, all kinds of people that were unemployed, you know. Q: So generally the city would decide what needed to be done. A: Right. There were certain federal guidelines that were established you know. And I guess committees were formed and applications were made and the committee reviewed the applications for the good of the city and the number of the people it would employ and the length of time and so forth, those kinds of factors were involved in determining. Q: How about assistance in the park operation, the park district operation? A: Well there were programs in which they funded employees who were added to the staffs in the recreational department, you know. We had, oh, gameroom attendants. And these people were of all ages, and who - some of them came in with skills, expert chess players and things like that. And others we had to develop into it, you know, to take over those jobs. But the federal funds financed a lot of the expansions of recreational programs. Q: Yes sir. Well let's see, on the presidential campaigns, as a precinct captain did you get out and work generally for the head of the ticket then? A: Oh yes. I remember one time I was canvassing in a black area for Harry Truman. And the blacks in those days were predominantly Republican. You know, you'd run into - even Roosevelt - Roosevelt was swinging them over. But there was a, you know, a sizable number that wouldn't change. And I was talking to a man one time about Harry Truman and so on and so forth. And there was a lady there by the name of Spencer, Ma Spencer, and she was quite a person. She had moved up to the north side from the south side, and she had owned some rooming houses. She was a person who had no formal education, but she wrote songs and she wrote poetry. And she heard me talking to them and she said to me, "George, you go on, let me take care of this gentleman. You go on and talk to other people. Let me talk to him," she said. I said, "Gee, that's swell." So I went on you know. And come election day this man came in and voted. It was about seven o'clock in the morning. And he said to me, "Will you call my boss and tell him I'm going to be a little late?" I said sure. So he gave me the phone number, and I put in the call, and I waited and I waited and I waited and I waited and I waited. Finally the guy came to the phone. I identified myself and I told him that this fellow was going to be late to work and he said, "Oh shit, is that what you brought me in here for? God dammitt, I don't care if he never gets here." And he hung up see. And this was a construction job see. And this guy was the boss and he brought them all there. Well I went out and this guy's still in the booth. And he's still in there, he's still in there, he's still in there. My God, that's absolutely impossible for him to be in there that long see? Well finally he came out. He said, "Okay." And he had it folded up nice and neat and he put it in the box and he said, "Did you talk to him?" I said, "I did and he was a little provoked," I said, you know. "Well as long as you got the call in, okay." So he went to work. That night when we opened up the ballot box to straighten out the ballots, here was a ballot - and every Democratic voter in the square had the most precise and exact 'x' that you ever saw in your life. It almost looked like somebody took a ruler and put it in see. And I looked at it, "Boy, that's a beautiful ballot." And down at the bottom of the ballot, this man had signed his name, his address, his apartment number and his phone number, and the ballot was no good. Q: Yes. (chuckles) 22 A: So when I saw him, I told him. He said, "You mean to tell me they threw my ballot out?" I said yes they did. "Just because I put my name on it?" I said, "That's right." "Gee, I didn't know," he said, "but what's wrong with that?" And I said, "That makes it a ballot that's a marked ballot, so to speak. Like you could have been under some coercion to vote." "I wasn't under that." "I know but that's the supposition of the law." He said, "Well that law's bad," he said, "just to think my ballot wasn't counted." "Well you're a good man," I said, "I'll tell you that. Mrs. Spencer did a hell of a job on you." (chuckles) Q: Was she involved as a ward A: No, no, she was just an interested citizen in politics you know. Q: How about the matter of vote fraud? It was always said that there was a considerable amount went on. Do you feel that there was? A: No. You know, I'll tell you - do you remember the Nixon campaign and the Kennedy campaign and I guess he carried the city by six thousand votes or something like that. Nixon said it was robbed and so forth. And so they started a recount and they stopped. But Mayor Daley appointed the professors of political science of the major uni• versities as a committee and had them review it. They issued a report and said that there wasn't any evidence of any wholesale fraud. Well when Mr. Nixon got himself into a little trouble, there was the Watergate thing, in the closing days he started talking about the steal• ing of the elections and how it was done to him in Chicago and I don't know what he was saying. One of the newspaper chains came in to me and said that their editor wanted to talk to me about it. I was in the - no, I wasn't the chairman of the party then, but he came in to see me. And later on .... (finds book in bookshelves) In the election I said, "You know, it's a joke." I pulled a book off the shelf and I said, "I want you to take a look at this." (finds place in book) Now this is the account, the account that's official, you know. But it's not the record. You'd have to go to the election commissioners and you'd get it. It would reflect exactly the same thing that this does. I just want to show you some• thing here. (brings book to interviewer) Q: What year is this? A: Let's see, here's the townships. I wanted to get a ward, but this will show us pretty much the same. This is Barrington, the registration is 4400 and the applications was 3000. And the applications register 67 percent. The Democratic candidate got this, and the Republican candidate got that. And other not voted, 128 people. Now this is the figure that I want you to see. Now this is one township and 128 people that did not vote for United States senate. Now these people signed the application. Their signature was checked in the binder. Now if they're going to steal an election, how do you think you'd steal it? You'd go to the machine and you'd count off 128 plugs wouldn't you? Q: You'd think so. A: Yes. The signatures are already - so there'd be no evidence of that, do you see what I mean? Q: Yes. A: And I showed this to the guy - now in the wards, this is with a small number of people, see twelve thousand, in every ward in the city of Chicago there was a minimum of a thousand per ward. And I said, "Do you know what that adds up to? That's fifty thousand! Now," I said, "if this city is so rampant with vote fraud and," I said, "the people are in the busi• ness," I said, "they're streetsmart." I said, "Do you think there would be a thousand unac• counted for, that they - that people would ..." And he said, "I don't believe this." And 23 I said, "Well you go over to the election commissioners. And," I said, "you can do it in every election, not just this one, every election." This happened to be the election of Novem• ber, 1978, you know. Q: Yes. A: And I don't know if I happen to have the city of Chicago ... (searches in bookshelf) Well here's one from 1974, the city of Chicago. Now we take the wards. (looks in book) Let's see, this is the Fourth Ward of the city of Chicago, 25,000 registered, there were 13,000 people that went to vote that day. And for the United States senator, the Demo• cratic candidate got that, the Republican candidate got that, and not voted for that office ... see that? Q: A thousand and something. A: And you could turn this thing and go to every ward in the city of Chicago, 992, you know, 1241. And when this fellow looked at this, you know, he said, "I don't believe that." I said, "Well you go over to the election commissioners and identify yourself and tell them what you want." So I said, "Let me, in fact, tell you about the Great Book. Certainly there's cases," I said, "isolated cases where somebody does something stupid. But," I said, "if they were going to steal the election," I said, "God, you've got over 50,000 votes in there." Q: Yes. Well. (chuckles) A: So that was the end of that particular argument. And you know, it's a funny thing, when I was the chairman of the parks you know, I would take this and I would show it to the committeemen and even they would say, "My God, look at this." I'd say, "Now these people, we got them to go to the polls." I said, "It took some effort, either advertising, tele• vision, radio, knocking on the doors," I said, "we got them to the polls. When they got there they didn't know what to do." I said, "You can't tell me that a person went to the polls who wouldn't vote for the top of the ticket and if you look at the bottom of the ticket it's worse!" Q: Yes I noticed the A: The bottom of the ticket is more .... So I said, "They don't know what they're doing. We've got a great education job to do." You know. Even on the cases of the reten• tion for judges, I pointed out people when they come to the retention of judges, the fellows who were up on the top got a great deal many more votes than the people down at the bottom. They got tired, they quit. They said the hell with it. Q: Yes sir. A: So that's my response to the vote fraud allegation. SESSION 2, TAPE 3, SIDE 1 Q: I'd like to ask a bit more about your family. We talked about your father the last time. We didn't say much about your mother. What are your earliest remembrances of your mother? A: Well she had eight children. And I'm a twin. And she was considerably younger than my father. I would say that she had to be at least twenty-five or thirty years younger than my father. My father, of course, died when I was eleven and so you can imagine what work she had cut out for her with eight children. She was an immigrant from Ireland, she had 24 to go to work, she had quite a challenge. She had a good sense of humor and she, I think, did a very excellent job. She lived to be about ninety-four and I used to kid her and say, "Well, boy, you've been eighty-nine for five years." Q: Yes. (laughter) Yes sir. Usually it's thirty-nine years. A: I know. (chuckles) But she had a lot of little witticisms and sayings you know. (taping stopped for telephone conversation and then resumed) A: I was saying that she had quite a sense of humor. I can recall one time she was running through the house and she had some of this rock candy - I don't know whether you're famil• iar with that, in those days it was supposed to be good for colds - and she ran through the house and grabbed me by the back of the neck and put the stuff in my mouth and I said, "Oh, boy, is that good!" And she said, "Oop, the wrong one." Q: Well! (chuckles) A: And another time I can recall - I was just a little shaver - I was eating a peach and I had - the stone got caught in my throat, you know, and I couldn't breath, and I went out running to her and she just turned around and hit me in the back real hard and, boy, that thing shot out. And I've often thought, you know, the presence of mind that she had to do that. Q: Yes. A: And we used to kid her at the table, you know. You can imagine, eight kids around. And one would say, "Pass the cream, M-I-L-K, cream." And she'd just look, you know. And we'd say, "You don't know what we're saying." You know. Q: Yes sir. (chuckles) A: "Wise guys," she'd say. And when they went to third grade in Ireland, that's the equiva• lent of a college education in America. Q: Well! (chuckles) A: It was something. (chuckles) Q: What type of work did she take up to support the family? A: She was what you might call a charlady. She went to work in some of the homes on the Gold Coast and she worked in the Potter Palmer house, cleaning and dusting and things of that kind, housework. She'd say, "Stand up straight, stand up straight," you know. Things like that. One time we were talking about a married couple, these people were kind of peculiar, and she said, "Well the Lord made them, and the devil mated." Q: Oh? (chuckles) Was she a good cook? A: Yes. She was a good cook. And you know I can recall - you can imagine, we lived in a stove-heated apartment, with no hot water. And we carried the coal up or whatever it was, and carried the ashes down. And you'd take a Saturday night and you know that stove was full of pots and pans full of water getting hot. And we'd pour them into the tub and one after another we'd take a shower. But she would bake bread and she'd bake pies and she'd bake cupcakes with that type of equipment. And then of course she did the laundry. She had the scrub board there you know. So - and you know, when you figure the hard work that she did and live that long. You know, that ... 25 Q: Maybe that tells you something. A: Yes it was remarkable you know. There were times when things got pretty tough. I can recall when, in the depression years, we were going to be put out for nonpayment of rent. Q: Yes you had said something - told about that. A: There was no public aid or anything in those days. And she weathered through, you know, the whole thing. I can recall - I'd take her out to dinner you know after I got older and we'd go to the restaurants and we'd order a drink and she would take a sip of the drink and say, "Now there's nothing in that glass at all." And I would call the waitress over and say, "Would you please give her a double." And the waitress would look, you know, and she'd fix a double and she'd taste it and she'd say, "Now that's fine." Q: Well! (chuckles) Yes sir. A: You know. Q: How was she with your religious training? Was she pretty strict? A: Yes she was. She saw to it that all of us went to church every Sunday. She'd jack us up, "Have you gone to confession lately?" So she did. She did that. And she used to say, "Help people, help people and help one another. Help your brothers and sisters and be helpful to people." She would say that quite frequently you know to try to do a job in making us good citizens, good people. So I would say that she made a great contribution in that regard. Q: Was she active in church affairs? A: No, not too active. But she went to church herself. But, you know, with eight kids she was pretty well tied down. She couldn't participate in any outside activities. Q: Yes. A: She was a nice-looking woman and you know, I've often thought, all those years without a man, you know, that was really something. Q: Well let's see now, there were eight children you say. A: Right. Q: Who was the oldest? A: My brother John. Q: John. A: Right. Q: And how much older was he than you? A: Well let me see ... John had to be eight or nine years older than I was. She had eight and she had them, oh, a little over a year apart it seemed. So I would say he was that much older. Q: And who was the second one then? What was the order of the children? 26 A: Pat. Well there was John and Joseph, who was called Pat. And there was Vincent and Ann and Mary and I, then Francis and Dennis. Q: So let's see, there were three boys then, John, Pat and Vince that were older than you. A: Right. Q: And John would have been almost twenty when your father died I guess. A: Yes that's right. There were - John and Pat - because they got married not too long after. I don't know - we were living in the same house that my father died in. So I would say they were certainly in the upper teens at that time. Q: So they would have been able to help out a bit with your mother's situation. A: Well they were but you know they got married. Q: Yes. A: You know and so she lost that support and help. Q: And then so you went to school, high school, two and a half years and then got the job with the park district as I understand it then. A: No I worked in other places before I went to work in the park district to Q: Oh? A: I worked in a flower shop and I worked in the forest preserve district. And I worked in the city sewer department. Q: What type of work - what did you do in the flower shop? A: I would do general work there, minor design work you know. Nothing of any artistic capability. But we'd make wreaths and we handled the delivery and going out and decorat• ing homes for a funeral and a church for a holiday and so forth, you know, things of that kind. Q: And this was while you were in high school while you were A: That's right. And then even after high school. Q: And what did you do with the forest preserve? I believe there was a lifesaving job there, was there not? A: That's right. I worked at the Whelan swimming pool, and I was what they called a pool attendant, doubled as a lifeguard and do whatever was necessary around the pool and hosing it down and cleaning it and so forth. I worked in the checkroom occasionally. Q: Where was that located in relation to your home? A: It was located at DeVonne and Milwaukee Avenue in the northwest section of the city. Q: I see. Where did you learn to swim? A: In Lake Michigan. 27 Q: Oh you did? A: Yes. Q: Were you a good swimmer? A: Oh I wouldn't say I could swim a minute in fifty-eight seconds, but I was a fair swimmer. Q: Did you ever have to use your lifeguarding ability? Pull people out? A: I'll tell you, I've pulled people out but they were pulled out before they were in any danger. You know, we were taught to keep your eye on the water, not the girls. And if you saw somebody that needed some help, get them out of there, you know. And so I never had to dive in after anybody that was under water. I went in to push somebody along, over to the wall and say, "Okay get out. Get down on the other end, stay down there," you know. That kind of thing. Q: You wouldn't have been very old when you had this job then I guess. A: No I wasn't very old. As a matter of fact, when I started with the park district I think I was about eighteen or nineteen years old. I was tall and naturally people would assume that I was older than what I was which helped a great deal. Q: Now this is the job that William Connors helped you get was it? A: That's right. He assisted me. He talked to Governor Horner and I was appointed there. And I was active in the CYO. The CYO was the Catholic Youth Organization. It was just starting out in those days, and I was elected the president of the club at the cathedral. And of course we organized baseball leagues and all the athletic activities. And so it seemed like a natural for me to go into the playground situation. We organized the teams there and we had an instructor working with me and conducted gym classes and things of that kind you know. I was with them for a long time. Q: Yes sir. How did you come to become president of the CYO? Did you actively go after that position? A: I don't know. It's pretty hard to remember. I guess I just fell into it naturally. I was somewhat gregarious and did a lot of things that would be helpful to people and so forth and so I know I was elected to president. With the assistance of Father Cunningham, later Monsignor Cunningham, we conducted some amateur and minstrel shows. Q: Oh? A: You know in the parish there, raise a few dollars to sustain some of the athletic activity that we participated in and so forth. Q: Was the father kind of an advisor to you for the CYO? A: Yes he was assigned that as one of his many duties to work with the boys. And he was a good athlete. He played with the White Sox at one time. Q: Oh is that right? A: Right. Yes he was a great athlete. And I think he's still alive. He's a real fine man. Q: You've mentioned the White Sox. Now you were out in the Cubs area. Did you go to many of the Cubs games? 28 A: Oh yes I went to the Cubs park quite frequently. We used to take youngsters out there. We'd call up the park and make arrangements and they would let us bring them in free you know. They'd want us to have so many adults for so many of the youngsters. And we would promote a bus and load them up and take them out you know. Q: Was this with the CYO or the park district? A: No this was with the park district. Q: Park district. Well when you first went to work with the park district, specifically what job did you have? What ... A: I was the manager of Lake Shore Playground. That was the title of the job and I received $157.50 a month. I imagine that the man who's the manager there now is making $2,000 a month. But in those days I bought a Plymouth automobile for a shade under $500. And today you would pay $6,000 for it. (chuckles) So that shows you what has hap• pened. Q: Did you have an office that you worked from? A: Yes, yes we had an office right in the building. There was a gymnasium in there and we conducted boys' and girls' and men's and women's activities in this building. We had a track, I can recall that - I don't remember the year, but Betty Robinson and Annette Rogers and many of the girl olympic stars worked out there. Tom Tearny was the coach of that team and they were a group of wonderful young ladies, girls. And they went on to win in the Olympics. Betty Robinson, I think, got a gold medal. Annette Rogers did. They were really something. And there was a lot of track activity there and there still is. You see people running around that track almost all hours of the night and day. Q: Is it the same track? A: Well I'm sure that there's been something added to the surface of it. It was a cinder track when I was there, and it's pretty hard to get cinders these days. But I'm sure that it's got a surface that's compatible with running. Q: Where did the funds come from for the operation of the park? A: Taxes. Q: From the city then? A: That's right. It was under the state of Illinois. And it was the Lincoln Park Board of Commissioners. Later all of the parks consolidated and they then became the Chicago Park District, if I recall correctly it was in 1933 or 1935. There were nineteen, I believe, separate park districts in the city of Chicago. Then they consolidated and became one, the Chicago Park District. And all of the employees became employees of the Chicago Park District. Q: Let's see, if I remember correctly, Mayor Kelly before he became mayor was involved with the park district. A: That's correct. He was with the South Park District. He was the president of the South Park Board. Q: Yes. So that would have been a different organization from the one that you were first with. A: That's right. I was with the Lincoln Park District Board. They were on the south side and we were on the north side. We used to compete with them. We would send some track 29 teams and wrestling teams and so forth into citywide competition. And there was a keen rivalry from one park district to another as you can understand. Q: Who won out mostly? Did you do pretty well in the competition? A: Well we did pretty good. We were particularly good in track because we had the track there and there was a lot of activity there. And we were pretty fair in wrestling. We had a coach by the name of Lou Tolliver. Lou Tolliver was the, oh, I guess the welterweight champ at one time, and a very fine man. He would come over to the park one night a week. And he would teach wrestling and it was kind of interesting. The college students would come over who were wrestlers on the college teams, see. And they would try to wres• tle Lou to see, you know, what they - they'd try to pin him. You know, it would be a great feat, you know. The poor guy, you know, he'd say, "Ooh, these young guys," he said, "are they something!" (chuckles) And he would pin them real fast you know. But as a result we had a pretty fair wrestling team. Q: You say college. Now that would have been what? Loyola? A: Well Northwestern University, Chicago University, you know. They knew where he was every night. They knew what his schedule was. We'd get our share of them. Q: Well. (chuckles) Did you know Mayor Kelly at that time? Did you associate with him? A: Not at that time, but of course I got to know him later on. And he was a real fine man. He had a great park system on the south side. George Donahue was the general superintendent of the South Park District, and he became the general superintendent of the Chicago Park District when they consolidated. And they had V. K. Brown who was the director of recreation and he became the director when they consolidated the park system. Well they had some excellent people on their staff and we learned a great deal from them. We put together a program for Northwestern University. We set up a curric• ulum with the thought in mind that we'd have a college course for recreation leaders. And that went on for a couple of years. But Ed Kelly, Mayor Kelly, I got acquainted with largely through Senator Connors. He knew my brother, Pat. My brother, Pat, became the commis• sioner of aviation for Chicago. Q: Yes you mentioned that. A: But he worked at Midway and of course he got his job from Mayor Kelly. Pat was active in aviation. In fact he performed a couple of the earliest delayed parachute jumps. You know, he'd go up and he would not pull the cord for quite a number of seconds and then he'd pull the cord you know. And so he was very much interested in aviation and so Senator Connors took him to Ed Kelly and Ed Kelly put him to work out at Midway. And so he was out at Midway, and then when Daley was mayor and they started to construct O'Hare, they sent him out there to work with the architects and the people out there with the layout and so forth. But as a result of Kelly's association and acquaintance I got to know the mayor. Senator Connors took me to a national convention in Philadelphia. And while I was there I had developed a diarrhea. And somehow or another Mayor Kelly heard about it. So he sought me out and he was very much like this. He said to me, "George, I understand that you're not feeling well. Now," he said, "I've brought some Hinkley and Smith water down here because the water's not too good here. Now I'm going to send a couple of bottles of it over to your room. What room are you in?" And I said, "Ah Mr. Mayor ..." "No, no," he said, "I want you to drink this now. Don't drink that water." So I told the senator about it and I said I didn't want the water. He said, "Listen, you take the water." He said, "I don't care whether you drink it or not, but," he said, "you take it. Don't offend 30 this man." See? So I took it and I drank it. As I recall it didn't stop the diarrhea but ... Q: Well! (chuckles) A: But he was that way. If he ran into you and you were coughing or something like that, he'd be so concerned, see - "Well now, are you taking care of yourself? Did you sleep well last night? Did you take some aspirin? Do you keep warm? Are you sweating? Do you know - why don't you take some hot lemonade? Hot lemonade and a couple of aspirins and go to bed!" And you know, he was a - what do they call them - a hypochondriac? Is that the word for it? Q: I'd say so. A: And as a matter of fact he was taken in by this so much that there was a guy who was selling what they called the Golden Spike. It was a little gold spike and it had a pin on it with a little chain. And you were supposed to pin that on your garment where you had a pain. Q: Oh really? A: Yes. And that was supposed to cure it see? And he believed it. Q: I'll be darned. A: Yes he believed this. And he encouraged people to buy this spike. And I'll never forget, this man who sold them was arrested and he was charged with some crime or something and they brought Kelly in to testify. And they asked Kelly if he - they said, "Do you think this thing really did any good for you?" And he said, "Well," he said, "you know," he said, "it's what we think, I guess, that matters. And," he said, "if a person thinks it does them some good, then," he said, "I think that it will." He said, "I don't think necessarily that it has any medicinal ingredients in it or anything like that. But," he said, "you know .. ." So the fellow was convicted anyway. It reminds me of the time I was talking to Jimmy Durante. And Jimmy had a bronze bracelet on. Do you remember, there was quite a rage of wearing the bronze bracelet because it cured arthritis and so forth. Do you recall that? Q: No sir. A: Well at any rate he had this bronze bracelet on and - was it bronze or copper? one or the other. It was a very distinguishable thing. It wasn't necessarily arty, you know. The color was not like gold, it was more to the bronze side. But I said to him, I said, "Say, Jimmy, does that do any good?" He said, "I don't know," he said, "but I'm afraid to take it off." Q: Well! Geez. (laughter) Well let's see. Now you were - you became a precinct captain about 1930 as I understand it. A: Right, right. Q: So now let's see, it was 1932 when the mayor was elected and then he went to Florida and was shot. A: That's right, Mayor Cermak. I think that he was elected, let me see, was it m 1932? That was a presidential election in 1932. Q: Yes so it would have been earlier I guess. 31 A: It was before that. I think that it was in either 1930 or 1931. I think 1931 would be the election. We elected a mayor this year which is an odd year. So it would have been, I think, 1931 if you counted four back. Mayor Anton J. Cermak. He was the president of the county board by the way before he became the mayor of Chicago. And he went down there and he was shot. Q: Now when he was shot there was a kind of a maneuvering in order to get Mayor Kelly set up to become mayor. I believe there was a William Clark involved at that time. Do you remember that . . . A: There was a man by the name of Corr, I think it was Frank Corr. Now you could check that- he was the interim mayor. Q: Yes sir. A: And then the council elected Ed Kelly. I'll never forget AI Horan - I don't know whether that name rings a bell to you or not ~ Al was a great Democratic leader here. He was the bailiff of the municipal court. And he was quite a witty guy, you know. And he said to me, oh, many years after Cermak was killed and Daley was - or rather, Kelly was mayor - at any rate, Kelly had died and he used to go up to Eagle River, where he had a home. And so I ran into AI and I said, "How are you doing, AI?" He said, "I'm doing fine," he said. "Say George," he said, "did you hear they opened up the safe up in Eagle River." Q: Oh? A: "And they got the mayor's will out." "And," he said, "the old guy's in there." (meaning Senator Connors) Q: Oh really? A: "He's in there." And I said, "Oh yes?" "Yes," he said, "he's in there for plenty. And do you know what else they found in that safe up there?" He said, "They found the gun that killed Cermak." Q: Oh is that right? Well! (laughter) A: He was quite a guy, this guy Horan was, you know. Q: Well that wouldn't have been a factual statement I suppose. A: Oh no it was just a - you see, because Kelly had succeeded Cermak, see, that's alL He was just making one of those witticisms. "They found the gun that killed Cermak." (laughter) SESSION 2, TAPE 3, SIDE 2 Q: I understand that there was some question as to whether Cermak was accidentally killed down there or whether someone intentionally was after Cermak rather than Roosevelt when the gun was fired down there. A: Well I suppose there was that kind of a thought, but the man who committed the murder I guess was, if I recall correctly, subsequently identified as being affiliated with some kind of a neurotic activity. So you know. Cermak was a man who was determined to live. You know Dr. Carl Meyer, who was a great surgeon and doctor here for many years- he's world• renowned as a matter of fact ~ he was the head of the county hospital and of course he 32 worked for Cermak when Cermak was the president of the county board. They flew him down to Florida when Cermak got shot. And he told me this: he says, "You know, it's a great plus for a doctor if a patient wants to live." He said, "Something happens to people as they near death they give up. And when they give up it's all over. And," he said, "I don't know what it is but," he said, "I've seen it all the time. They just don't.... And," he said, "I went down to take a look at Cermak and," he said, "by all standards, all vital signs, this man should have been dead. And," he said, "he wanted to live so bad. His determination for power and everything was just that ..." He told me he came back - Dr. Meyer came back from Florida and there was no hope for this man. And he lived for several days after that. He said he didn't think he was going to live at alL And you know, I found that in Senator Connors, you know. At the end, you know, I talked to him on the phone. I was in Springfield and he had gotten sick and come back and I talked to him about some legislation. There was a bill to create some judges in the circuit court. And I said to him, I said, "Do you want me to handle anything?" I said, "I've talked to Senator" ... oh the senator from River Forest, Bidwill, Senator Arthur Bidwill. And I said, "He was talking ..." And he said, "George I don't care about the judges, I don't care about nothing." I said, "Ah Bill," I says, "you've got to fight this thing," "Fight, hell," he said. I said, "Bill, don't give up." "Don't tell me," he said. I said, "How do you feel?" He said, "I feel lousy." I said, "Are you in pain?'' He said, "I guess so." I says, "Where does it hurt?" "All over," you know. And he died in two days. Q: He just kind of gave up then. A: That's right. And this guy was a fighter all of his - as a matter of fact, I can remember one time I said to him, "Gee, Senator, take it easy. Now things are a little different," you know. And he said, "Aw you guys," he says, "you're losing your guts and everything else," you know. I said, "Prudence is the better part of valor." Well he was truly a wonderful man. And the thing about Cermak and Kelly - and I'll tell you, Connors was very close to Kelly. Q: Oh? A: They were very good friends and had great mutual admiration. And they were both good men. Q: Do you recall anything about Corr being put in? I understand there was quite a to-do as - there were people who wanted a Clark to become the temporary mayor. A: Well I'm sure that as at all times there's a few that want this and a few that want that and so forth. And I suppose you're referring to John S. Clark. Q: Clark is the only part that I have. A: Yes, John S. Clark. He was the chairman of the finance committee, I believe, of the city, later became the assessor and he served in that post for a long time, until his death. And he's the father of Bill Clark, who's the justice of the Supreme Court. Q: You, being a precinct captain at that time, do you recall any activity in the precinct in support of either of those? A: No. The precinct that I had at that time was east of the Drake Hotel and you know, as I recall Hoover beat Roosevelt in there overwhelmingly, like 550 to thirty, something like that you know. And I thought the end of the world came you know. And boy, I went back to the headquarters - I guess it was about five o'clock in the morning - well, everybody was celebrating. And I said, "What are you celebrating about?" "We won, we won." I said, "Geez, I lost." You know. But I didn't have much communication with those people. You 33 couldn't get to them you know. The doorman and the elevatorman wouldn't let you in the building. I'd have to go up the back elevators and I would talk to what we referred to as the kitchen mechanics. You know, the cook and so forth. And those were the people that we got to vote for Roosevelt. There was just a handful of them. Q: I see. A: But I don't recall any - you don't get much reaction even today from the man in the street relative to the different chicanery or good things or bad that go on within the party ranks. I meet people, you know, "How are you holding up, George? Well hang in there," you know. That kind of stuff. But I don't know that any constituent would call up a com• mitteeman or an alderman and say, "Look, vote for so-and-so for mayor or vote for so-and-so for county chairman." Now on election time, people running for mayor or something, then you get a reaction. It would be very seldom that you would get activity developed. Q: How did you come to get a precinct like that? A: Well what happened - as I had told you, my earlier activities, you know, working with Barrett and so forth. Connors was in the house and somebody was running against him. It was Jimmy Burns and Jimmy Burns was the precinct captain in this particular precinct. So Connors had recalled me and he said to Barrett, "Go and get Dunne and I want to talk to him, I want to make him a precinct captain." So I was working in the flower shop and Barrett came down and said, "George, Bill Connors wants to talk to you. And," he says, "can you come up there Sunday?'' I said sure. I said, "What does he want to talk to me about?" He said, "He wants to make you precinct captain." "Hey that's great." You know. And he said, "Yes it is George. It's very good." And I says, "He knows I can't vote." "He knows you're a kid." So I went up there Sunday and he said to me, he said, "Now Jimmy Burns is running against me for the legislature, and he's got this precinct over there. And," he said, "I'd like to have you go in there and do what you can. There's not a hell of a lot that you can do over there," he said, "but you know, see to it that it's covered and that we get the returns. And get whatever you can out of the kitchen people." So I did and that's how I got to be appointed as a precinct captain. Q: Did he give you any guidance as to going up the fire escapes to get to the kitchen people? A: No. You see, we didn't have to use the fire escape. We used the back elevator. See there was a service elevator in all those buildings. And so that's what I would work. So that was a kind of an ironical thing - when I was a youngster I used to deliver newspapers - I had a paper route and I'd deliver newspapers in there. So I was familiar with the buildings you know. I knew the back and everything else, the gangways and so forth. And even the engineer, the janitor of the building knew me. Q: Do you think that William Connors knew this, that you were familiar with the area? A: Oh yes, yes, sure. Q: That might have been a factor in his selection of you. A: Well I don't know that he was thinking in terms that I would be able to swing any votes in that precinct, you know, but what he was concerned with was that the place would be covered so that everything was functioning properly in there and that he'd get a call at ten saying the number of votes that were cast, and he'd get a call at two telling him the number of votes that had been cast and then at five - it closed at five o'clock in those days, telling the number of votes that were cast for the whole day. And then of course I'd bring the results in, you know. And he wanted it covered. 1 didn't have that precinct too long. I had the precinct over there, I think, about ... well through 1932 and then I was transferred to the precinct in which I lived in and the reason 34 I was transferred then was the precinct captains at that time in that precinct turned against the organization also. Larry O'Brien who was then a state legislator had gone to jail for failing to pay income tax and when he came out - and I said to him, I said to Larry O'Brien, I said, "Now Larry, you've been in jail. And," I said, "I've been in the organization." He said, "I heard." He said, "That's great George." "And," I said, "now," I said, "if you're going to run for office I can resign from the precinct and do it honorably," I said. "I'm not going to do anything under cover. And," I said, "I'll work for you," I said, "because you helped my sister get a job." He had a speakeasy on the corner of where we lived see. And he said, "Aw," he said, "that's nice. Naw," he said, "no you stay with the organization. They'll always take care of you, George. You stay with them." And I said, "Well I'm telling you now. I'm giving you a shot." I said, "I have no position and," I said, "I can just resign and there will be no harm." And he said, "No," he said, "that's it." So he decided to run you know. And Connors called me in and he said, "George, I want you to take that precinct where you live." He said, "Dinger Maloney and Brownie are going to go with O'Brien." Well it was O'Brien's precinct you know, he had his saloon there. And he was a very colorful person. Gee. I never saw a man - he was what you would call a coordinated dresser. You know, he'd have a green suit and a green hat and a green pair of shoes. And then he'd have a tan outfit and a gray outfit, he was a handsome guy. He was a - he was quite a character. And so I said to the senator, I says, "Hey, Senator," I says, "you know, O'Brien helped my family quite a bit." And he said, "What are you, afraid?" And I said, "No I'm not afraid." He said, "Well take it," he said, you know. "You don't owe him anything." And I said, "Well I offered to help. I offered one time, Senator, a while ago and he turned it down. So," I said, "I'll take the precinct." And I had a rough time too in that election. I'll never forget everything was paper ballots and about four o'clock in the morning we had finished counting the Democratic ballots and I won the precinct. I beat the - won the precinct and I'll never forget the first guy I saw the next day was Lawrence O'Brien. I was walking by and he was standing, and he said, "Well," he said, "how the hell did you do it? How did you do it?" he said. ''You were great,"he said, "really great." And I said, "Well," I said, "I didn't relish it, but as I told you I was going to work hard and I did." And I'll never forget that people used to call up my mother and say, "You tell George to stay out of that precinct or he'll get his head cracked open." She'd tell me. And I told Larry about it. And he said, "Oh, gosh," he said, "I'll raise hell with them." He said, "There ain't nobody gonna touch you, George." It was his workers that saw me working like hell and wanted to show me up. And it didn't. But it was during the Republican count that there was some marks on the ballots and I challenged them and the judges upheld my challenge. And a guy ran out, and before he ran out, he said in Italian to this fellow that works with me, "Who is this guy?" And he said, "Democratic Captioni." So he went out. And there was no phone in the place. But the funny thing is the senator gave a special policeman in there for me. There was a policeman for the polling place and then one for me. And gee, and I said to him, "I don't need that." He said, "Just ..." So there was two policemen in the polling place. Well I'll tell you, about twenty minutes later cars pulled up, you could hear the brakes you know and the doors slamming and people getting out and there was a wooden walk across from the sidewalk to the start of this house. And it sounded like a herd of cattle coming across. And the policeman was asleep there and the guy tried to get in and the policeman woke up you know. And he went over and the policeman looked up - he had a shade on the door, and he looked out and he pulled out his gun and he opened the door. And he said, "What do you want?" And they said, "We want George Dunne." And he said, "There he is right over there. The first one of you guys that come across that door is going to get killed." 35 Q: Is that right? A: And then he said, "Alright come on in here now." And you should have seen the weapons they took from these guys. Boy, I'm telling you - and about three minutes after that part of time some more cars pulled up. It was the police. Now how they knew about it I don't know. But they came in and the captain says to this one guy, he says, "Listen at six o'clock this morning I told you to get out of my district. And," he said, "you weren't smart enough to do it. You're going in now." And so he pinched them all. I don't know whatever happened to them. I suppose they probably got out you know. But I'm telling you if that person wasn't there you know, I often think, oh ... (chuckles) Q: Now these were Italian Republicans, is that the sense of it? A: Well, yes, that's exactly what they were. And there was a very contested race on that time. I think it was Swanson and somebody for state's attorney. But they were - these people were involved in the ward committeeman race, the Republican ward committeeman race. But thank God those days are long gone. Q: Yes. Well I guess so. Well now that was 1932 you say. A: Yes I would - maybe 1933. Maybe 1933. Q: Was it that way through the 1930's at various elections? A: Well I would say that that was the only experience I ever had in that light. Things were a little rough, you know, from a political point of view on election day. But I - I never had any trouble other than that occasion. But you know. Q: Now you say when you went out and worked hard as a precinct committeeman, what does work hard mean? What would you do? A: Well I made sure that I contacted every single person that was registered, and even before election day - when registration day came, I registered people you know. I went out. And on that particular registration - in those days they had the revision, there would be a revi• sion in the precinct. After the registration the people would receive a notice if they couldn't find them in their home, the judges couldn't find them, they'd leave a notice challenging their right to vote see? And then they would get that card and they would bring it to the polling place on revision to prove, in one sense, that they lived there. They got the card you see. And what had happened in this election, Lawrence O'Brien had helped many people get on the police department. So they were all registered out of this building that he had there see. And so he said to me, he said, "George, don't challenge anybody." And I said, "Larry," I said, "I'm going to challenge everybody." I said, "I told you that I'd be for you and you turned me down. And," I said, "when I took this precinct I went and I told you that the senator assigned me here and that I was going to work. And," I said, "so I'm telling you that they're going to be challenged." "Well geez," he said, "I should have known you'd do that." And on revision night squad car after squad car would pull up, come in, these guys would come in with their cards. And I would say, "Now look, you fellows are making a mistake." And they'd say, "Look," you know, "who the hell are you?" See. And I said, "Now look, Larry made you and you've got a nice job." I said, "If I didn't challenge you here today," I said, "the senator could go down to the election commissioners tomorrow and file a personal notice and you would have to go down there. And you know they'd bring in the city payroll and find out the address of where you live. And," I said, "don't be silly," I said, "you're only going to get yourself in trouble. You can help O'Brien," I said, "you can ring doorbells and you can contribute to his campaign." I says, "This isn't going to help 36 him." And so they all went out you know. And I had to make that speech I don't know how many times that night. And I told him - he saw me when it was over and he said, "Aw you knocked them all off." And I said, "Larry, you know that Bill could go down and do it." He said, "That's right he could." So I said, "What do you think I'm here for?" He said okay. So it was a tremendous experience. Q: Did you enjoy that type of work, being a precinct captain? A: Well you know, I suppose you fall into things, it's a way of life. And so I just did it. I was a precinct captain for thirty-five years. I just love to be around people and I love to help them. And I get a great sense of satisfaction out of being of service to them. And I know everybody can't do that, they don't have the chemistry or something. But to me it worked out very very well. Q: Let's see we mentioned Cermak there. It was with Cermak that the Democratic orga• nization in Chicago generally began to roll or to grow. A: Yes I would say that that's true. However Cermak did not care for Senator Connors. What had happened, when the city council was being organized - or at the cen• tral committee meeting - now he was the president of the county board - at the central committee meeting they took a vote, in those days they did it closed vote, and it came out to be forty-nine to one for Cermak. So somebody got up and made a motion to make it unanimous. And they did it again and it came up forty-nine to one. So they said, "What the hell is it? We want to make this unanimous. Let's have a standing vote." So Connors wouldn't get up. Q: Oh really? A: And he said, "Aw, he's just a bad guy." Cermak had a reputation that he'd give somebody a job and let them have the job for six months and then he'd take them off the payroll and then six months later he'd put them back on. And Connors said, "He only wanted to keep people hungry so they'd always be beholden to them." And he said, "He stinks so." Well at any rate when he ran for mayor and he won, then Connors supported him as a Democrat. When they organized the city council, our alderman, Dorsey Crowe - and the vote for the chairman of Committee on Committees was JohnS. Clarke on the one hand and Oscar Nelson on the other. Oscar Nelson was Republican. And the vote was tied for the chairmanship and Crowe had not voted. So Crowe went in and he voted for Oscar Nelson, Republican. And when Cermak was down in Florida he sent a wire back, "No jobs to Connors and Crowe. Give the jobs to O'Brien." And of course Cermak was killed about a week later, you know, shot a week later. The fortunes of life you know. But the Democrats started to pick up in about 1930 I believe it was. Joe Gill was elected clerk to the municipal court and Al Horan was elected bailiff of the municipal court. There was a lot of jobs in those two offices. Then there were county offices that they picked up and Cermak was president of the county board and then they picked up the mayor and then they won the governorship with Horner. SESSION 2, TAPE 4, SIDE 1 Q: Did this reflect in any way at your level in the precinct, of the growing strength?