University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

Jeremiah Marsh Memoir

M351. Marsh, Jeremiah (1933-2004) Interview and memoir 18 tapes, 1560 mins., 256 pp.

ILLINOIS STATECRAFT Marsh, attorney, recalls his experiences as Special Counsel to Illinois Governor Richard B. Ogilvie (1969-1973). He recounts activities as a chief advisor and trouble-shooter for Ogilvie, dealing with matters such as the institution of a state income tax, fiscal reforms, the 1970 Constitutional Convention, the governor's legislative efforts, transportation projects, and Ogilvie's failed re-election campaign against Dan Walker. He also recalls attending law school at Harvard, work in Washington as legislative assistant to Edward Kennedy, Illinois Secretary of State Paul Powell and the "shoebox" scandal, Ogilivie's relationships with the directors of state departments and agencies, and relations with the General Assemby and the press. He also recalls his dealings with state political figures including Lt. Gov. Paul Simon, Chicago Mayor Richard Daley (Sr.), Senators Alan Dixon and Charles Percy, W. Russell Arrington, George Dunne, Michael Howlett, Willard Ice, John Lewis, Maurice Scott, and others.

Interview by Cullom Davis, 1982. OPEN

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1982, University of Illinois Board of Trustees J

Preface

'lhi.s ma.nuscript is the product of a series of tape-recorded interviews canduct:ed by G. CUllan D!lvis for the Qra.l H!st:or:Y. Offioe, Sarga:l1l:a'l state university in 1982. L:in:la s. Jett transcribed. the tapes a:rd Mr. Marsh edited and reviewed the transcripts. Jeraniah Marsh was GoVernor Richard. B. Ogilview's Spec:lial o:unsel. In the Ogilvie lvlministratim, he functimed as Ogilvie's chief t::l:.'oobl.e-shooter and as a principal advisor to the governor, deal:i.n::J with such. subjects as the incaDe tax, the Ogilvie fiscal refor.ms, the 1970 Constitutional Convention, the Administratim' s legislative efforts, the transportatim program, l'DJI1I!rO\lS other programs a:rd agencies, and the re-electim campaign against Om walker.

Mr. Marsh was bam in Freel:lom cn.mty, Mirmesota in 1933. He was educated in the Minnesota p.lblic schools and at Ha.rVaJ::t1 College and I.aW Sc:h.cx:U. Before join:i.n::J the Ogilvie Administration in late 1968, he practiced law in Chicago and was Isqislative Assistant to u.s. Senator Fdwani M. Kennedy. He se:r:ved with Ogilvie fran the transitim in 1968 until Ogilvie left offioe in early January1 1973. Since that time, he has practiced law in Chicago ani is presently 01air.man of Hop1d.:ns & sutter, a 1~ law firm with offices in Chicago, Washirqton a:rd r.allas. CUllan ra.vis grew up in central Illi.rvJis, where he returned for a :AlD I in history at the university of Illi.rvJis after his ~te educatim at Prin.c::let:al university. A specialist in American SbXiies a:rd mcdern united states history, he taught at Iniia:na university before oc:rnin;J to 5anga:ar::n state university, where he is professor of histoz:y am director of the Oral History Offioe. He is active in the oral history professim, various historical organizations, civic activities am IleDx::lcratic politics. He is married am father of three drlldren. Readers of the oral history ll.'ll!llVJir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, am that the interviel'.«ar I narrator an:l editor SCJ..19ht to preserve the infonnal., conversational style that is i:nhel:ent in such historical SO\llX:!eS. Barr;Jamon state university is not respcms:ible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed thereinr these are for the reader to ju::lge. '!he :manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in ~ by any means, electronic or mec:hanical, withcllt pemissim in writi.rg fran the oral History Offioe, 5arr:jam::>n state university, Sprirgfield, Illi.rvJis 62794-9243.

i I Jeremiah Marsh Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield r April 22, 1982, Tape l, Side 1

Q. Mr. Marsh, we will be explorirg your association with Governor Richard Ogilvie, but to preface that, I'd like you to talk about your background prior to that association, particularly those elements in the background which in your-in retrospect bear sane relationship to the work you did with him.

A. I was bom in southern Minnesota in 1933. I was a gocxl student athlete ani, probably because of the athletic activity when I was in high school, I got the attention of a man :in Mirmeapolis who recruited students for Harvard College. I . went to HarvaJ:d College on a national scholarship, Which went on through law school in my case, ani then I went on to Hal:val:d laW SChool. At Hal:Vani COllege I majored in anthropology ultimately, although my interests were pret;ey eclectic. I liked law school • • •

Q. I.et me int.erropt for a naoent with the college. Were there any particular professors or CCRJrseS at Hazvard College that in retrospect influenced you in your career in politics?

A. well, evetyt:hi.rq at Ha:tVard COllege did in a sense. I'd say the greatest si.rqle influence on me caniiq out of Harvard COllege was the backfield football coach that I played for. He was an ext:raordi.nal:y man ani I probably learned nDre from hi:m am fran playirg football than I did fran any other sirgle t:hin:J. Q. What did you learn fran him?

Jeremiah Marsh Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield A. Cb, lots of t:hi.n;Js. 'Ihirgs that relate to character. Dedication, don't make the same mistake twice on the same play, harq in there, all ki.rrls of tllin;Js that you get fran sports as fran other aspects of life. But the main t.h..irq that I would erq:tJasize about Haivard for saneone like myself, where I came fran a small town in Minnesota, it was a oauplete cultural dlan:;Je for me. Ani it was really alm:lst like livirg in another country. I had CXI'lle fran a family of good ani intelligent people l:ut none of them had fiNer been educated beyond high school. Ani ~ grarxlparents on both sides were fanners, one of Wham was fairly active in Dem:x:rat FaJ:m labor politics in Minnesota as a yourg man ard really till he got fairly old. But I didn't, when I was a boy, really have anybody that was active in political life or even in business as you would think of it, except pertlaps JCr:l dad's business which was a small constroction cxrrpany that built haDes ard camnercial buildirgs once in a while.

However, HaJ::vard was a tremerxious eye-opener for me in every respect. I was thrc:Mn in with people fran all over the world and fran all over this co.mtry, talented people of all ki.rrls, professors Who were stimulatirg, an:l other section men as they called them, i.nstructors. I'd say the ability to go through what you might call a cross-cultura1 educational experience of that type, I've frurd to be pertlaps right at the root of sane of ley skills in govemment an:i in law. 'lllat is to see the other party's point of view and think \ll'dersta.rxiily ard hopefully creatively about how that affects the interests that I'm represe:ntin:J or that I might have on ley side. Ani that's in an in:lirect way very significant for dealirg with the diverse people you do in govemment.

I didn't really get interested in fonnal political science until I got to law school ani that's been 200re of an adult education, self education thing for me. Although I •ve, in fact, got a pretty deep interest in the subject and continue to read ani think about it.

Another theme I think that came to me fran Harvard is the recognition that the only education really worth saoet:h.:irg is self education. Not that a great m'li.versity like that can't open many doors for you, it does. But the JOOSt iDportant one is to teach you that self education is possible ani by beirq self reliant and curicus you can develop interests and habits that help you all your life. I guess I ••• Q. You were goirg to talk about law school.

A. I went to law school really because I didn't knew what to do when I graduated. I got dam to the end of my senior year and I had been a good student and active in a number of other ways in college 1:ut I really didn't think I wanted to go into business. I didn't kncw what that would consist of in arr:1 case because I had:n' t had a lot of exposure to business ard I didn't-in light of the alternatives I decided to try law school. People always said, ''Well, at least even if you don't want to be a lawyer it's good Education for a year or so." SO I thought I'd try it for a year ani I did. Ani to ley suprise v· really, I famd that I enjoyed it very DJCh. I didn't kncw w.hether I 'WOUld or n::Jt bit I fooni that I did, particularly as I got into the

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seoord an:l thiJ:d year of law school Where you get into plblic law courses.

I fc::Jill'Vi that I had a JDaJ:Vel.ous experience in law school, alth Yough v it's a lonely, oold arrl in sace ways ~ place at Haivaiii Iaw SChool. I didn • t have a lot of clcquaintanoes and friems like I did in college because I was ma:tried. I got married at the end of ItrJ first year of law school. AIX1 so I didn't live at the school b.It a few blocks away in an apart:wmt. But I had scm! people that had held aver fran Hazvard College that I knew, ani sane others. And fCIIJJ'rl that I enjoyed the academic rigor of the law school a great deal. When I came cut of law school I came to work in arl.ca.go with a finn that is rDtl called Rooks, Pitts, Ful.lagar & Poust. Henry Pitts was a dist.in;uished Illinois lawyer, is :nc:w the senior partner there. '!hat was in the summer, JUne of 1958. 'lbere I worked on litigation primarily, although as a yal1'J3' lawyer you do everyt.hirg.. one of the areas that I did quite a bit of work in in ItrJ first four years or so was railroad labor litigation.

In the fall of 1960 at ab:IU't the election time, we were tryin;J an injunction case against an illegal strike before Judqe Hoffman in the federal court ani Richard Oqilvie was on trial in the Accardo case. He was the prosecutor, special prosecutor, in a protracted trial against Anthony Accardo who was allegedly the bead of the syrdicate ani in arty event has been a notoriOJS alleged member of the syrrlicate all the years I've been here. He was on trial ani ~ilvie was the prosecutor. so our case was an emergency ani was beiil;i sort of tried arouni the edges of his. '!hey put the jury in the box at ten o'clock ani finished at 4:30. we'd start at 8:30 or nine and then resume again at 4:30. At ab:IU't the same time, when the case CXIl'lCluded Ogilvie evidently decided to go back into private practice, because within a m:mth or two he joined our f:il:m.

I got to knc:M hiin just by lllaJd.rg small talk in the courtroan. He was a former associate in another law finn with one of our partners, who talked to hiln about joinirx;J us an:i he did. He was a yourg litigat~ partner, in effect, at that time in early 1961. Am I got to know hiln quite well ani I'd had this sort of cup of coffee with hiln in cannection with the AocaJ:do litigation ani began to wm:X for hiin in a great deal of my work.

Q 0 Legal work.

A. legal work, yes. I was his trial assistant and that OOl'lti1rued all through 1961 arrl 1962. In the fall of 1961 as the sla'l:emakin; came arourrl he decided to run for sheriff, ani by then I had ~ to know hi:m. rather well an:i went through the machinatiCDS of tryJ.Ig to get slated by the Rep.Jblican Party for sheriff or as can:iidate for sheriff of COOk camty. He stuck to his guns and did run for sheriff ani won, narrc:Mly. I was involved in his C"AD!f0i9I'l in the summer and fall of 1962.

Q. was that your first involvement in politics?

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A. Yes, yes.

Q. 'What did you do in that canpaign?

A. Cb, I don't remember exactly. A little resean:il. and speech writirq. It wasn't sanethin:J that was very neoessazy really. I did quite a bit of work, c:x:me to think of it, an a crime ptc:qtam of sorts. I don't remember whether he ever used it. He was a refonn sheriff. I think it's fair to say the first two years that he was sheriff, or a year ani a half, I wasn't in Chicago. so I wasn't really a part of the actual activity of the sheriff's office durin;J that period, bit there were a lot of oJ:9allizational reforms and persamel reforms that he tried to brin;J in. An:l they were sort of a gangtusters operation too, knoc::Jtin:J ever illegal ga:utllin;J and the like, primarily in unincx>rporated subul:ban COOk o:unty, which is the main thnlst of the sheriff's jurisdiction.

In Novamber of 1962 after the election, an old frien:l of mine named John OJlver, 'Who was fran cedar Rapids, Iowa, and was a year ahead of ne at Harvard and played football with me, 'Wet'lt an to be Senator Ollver of Iowa. But at that time he had just gone t:h:ro.lgh, or was goir:g through, Ted Kennedy's canprlgn for senator in Massachusetts, there'd been a primacy against [Fdward] Mc:Cotmick in probably september of 1962, and then the election. After the election Ollver came back to cedar Rapids to take the bar exam, the Iowa bar. As he came back to Boston, he stq.pd and spent a couple of days with me am popped the suggestion that I might join Kennedy's staff. I'd Jax:Mn Kennedy fairly well but rot nearly as well as CUlver in college arrl had played football with h.iJn as well. And then when I was in law school I OJached and I was a coach for two of the years that Kennedy was active.

Q. were you classmates?

A. No, I was class of 1955. Ollver and Kennedy started in the class of 1954. OJlver finished in 1954, so he graduated a year ahead of me. Kennedy finished in 1956. He was in the anny for two years, after his freshman year, I guess it was. Arxl then came back, was at prd::latian• I believe it was for a year, half a year-am then finished the last two years. .

But I'd :kn:Mn Kennedy an:i Clllver. CUlver was goirg to be the chief of staff in his senatorial office and they wre p.tttiJ'q together a 'Washin:ft.on staff ani thalght--we were all wrag abait this--b.rt at the tilDe they thalght he would prcbably be p.rt an the cc:mnittee an labor am p.lbllc welfare. '!hat had :been the OCill'Dittee that Jc:tm Kennedy was on when he was in the senate an:l it had been a very active ocmnittee for John Kennedy ani Bob Kennedy. 'lhat was a1e of their sWxxrmni ttees as I recall, that got them into sane of the labor management reportirq and disclosure legislation in the fifties whidl was an c:ut:growt:h of the ~ labor investigations-which actually may have been OOI'¥iucted lil the government cparations camdttee. But the legislative outgrowth of that en:ied up l:Jein;J in the labor CXIIIIDittee. In fact by the mid sixties the old line, New Deal type labor issues :really weren 1 t very .inp:>rtant ~essional issues arr:t m;,re.

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But Kennedy did get-so they thought of me as a labor lawyer. 1hey knew me ani liked me an:i tb::lu;ht of me. '1bey thought that it WOlld. be helpful to have a labor lawyer because, in fact, Oll.ver had just graduatei fran law school in June of 1962-I<'ennedy probably a year or two before that-and had been a prosecutor up in Massachusetts.

I didn't have much use for my labor l::lackgra.mi, al1::hol.¥3h we were involved in the Ul:ban mass transit legislation 'Which went thn:ugh in 1964 which had labor provisions that my skills were relevant to. But most of the work I did as a legislative assistant to Kennedy, first as 011ver' s assistant ani then within aJ::x:ut fcur months I was the principal l~islative assisant--was work that my specific leqal backgrcun:i didn •t have that much relewnce to. Maybe my law school backgrcun:i in genem1 did am the plblic law oc:urses did.

Q. What sort of work was it?

A. Ch, I was the legislative assistant which meant-we had a very small office. '!hat meant in their sebJp I was in charge of press, Which was a deliberate decision because he was t::t:yi.rg to make it manifest that he was not press oriented, that he just wanted to be a hardworkin:;J senator. '!hat didn't take up mrh of II¥ t:ilne. It consisted ncstly of 'b.1min:J dc7.m interviews ani occasionally givirq one or worki.n:J with Kennedy on one. 'lhe su):xxtmnittee wrk-he was on the subcamnittee on administra~v:llrctice and p:roce:fure. He then later got an the anti-trust ttae. He was an the sutxxmnittee on immigration which I didn't have lllllCtl to do with. '!here wasn't l1D.lCh immigration legislation but there was a lot of casework ard another side of the office han:lled that. Ani the subxmnittee on constitutional rights which at that time was Jd.n:l of inactive. It ltDStly killed bills rather than passed them. Althalgh that summer of 1963 of course was the summer of the votin;J rights leg'islation and equal occ::upanc::y too. 'lhat is, Mrs. Jtln:tilY' s exel'l'p1:ion ani those thin]s, if you recall.

on the labor camnittee he was a member of the subxmnittee an health which ultilnately-at that time Lister Hill, Senator Hill of Alabama, was alive and was the lord virtually of all health legislation. His father had been a distiiJ3uished doctor I believe in Alabama ani he had made a life-long career of his interest, in the hcuse ani the senate, in health legislation. He just loaued over the whole subject ani eveeybody deferred to him. UltiJDately that teoame an .iDportant SIJbcxmni ttee for Kennedy. '!here was a suJxxmni ttee an refl.¥;1ees lrthlch became an important SIJlxxrmnittee later b.tt was; very inactive at that tilne. '!here my have been cme or two others in the labor ocmnittee. I just don't remember. I'm sure there were.

I also was involved in sane speedl writinj that was issue related arxi in floor vote :reoamnet'Daticms. As the sessia1 picked up in the fall of 1963, particularly in early 1964, the Kennedy tax bill was in the senate. Ani it had, ci'l, I guess there was a m::nth in early 1964 \t4'lere it was on the senate floor With amerdments beirq offered ard debated. I had sane tax backgrourrl fran the early days when I was a lawyer, so I became the resident expert a1 what to do an these amerdments. 'lbat pretty well sums it up.

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Q. tllat were the most menmable experiences you had in that capacity?

A. Well, probably the mcst important was oot to get-I got and lost or never got, Potanac fever, which is helpful for ale's perspective I think. I leamed that, even thaJgh. I had cane fran a backgrcun:i that was not very politically active, althcugh my year with o;;rilvie was probably as DllCh experience as arty YtmJ1 person gets-I certainly didn't fancy myself as an experier¥Jed politician-! leamed that the qualities that made you a good lawyer, inclu.:lirg all the rxn:mal. t:h.in;Js you would think of, plus such t:h.in;Js as keepi:rg your 'WOl."d and deali:rg straight with people, lo110rked very -well in the senate. Ted Kemedy rightly eamed a repitaticm as an able, hartlwor:Jd.n;J, rather self-effaci:rg YtmJ1 senator. I made a p:cetty significant oontril:uticm to that t.c:o because I was the ooe who dealt legislatively with the other offices. I enled up gettirg alcn; very -well with most of the people down there, for the same reason that you can deal with lawyers who may be your qp:::ll'lel'l't here in the I.ocp. You quickly leam to sort out the ones that are talented as wl.l as trustworthy. Ani those t:h.in;Js are highly relevant to a political envil:cumaent, certainly to the senate or the ccn:p::'eSS.

Q. 'What was so important abc:Jut avoidirq PotaDa.c fever?

A. I think it helps your perspective and your j~rt.

Q. You weren't seduced by the glam:m- of Wa.shin.;Jton?

A. I think that • s right. It's a very gl.aDDrt:us place and I enjoy• sane of my practice today still takes me to 'Washil'qton. I enjoy it. sanetimes I think pertlaps I should spem DrJl.'e time there. It would be good for the sake of my practice and our finn. I can't because of other obligations really and my other demands en my time. But it's easy to get to Wash.i.rgton and lose talch with the grass roots and with, you might say, reality or other views of reality if you want to be ncre objective alxJut it. Q. What were your politics at that time?

A. In my boyhoc:d I'd always sort of considered myself as a Demx:l:at. My qranifather was a Demx:Iat Fann Labor politician, I guess you could say. He was a OCRJl'lt.y superinten:ient up in Minnesota for quite a few years. 'lhat went back to the days of Elmer Bensa1 ani saoe pretty radical figures. RdJert IaFollette was a halsehold name in my household and the progressive llDVelllel'l't. 1llen I got involved with Q;;Jilvie I began to really think of myself as an Q;;Jilvie Replblican. My lo110rk with Kemedy, I told you haw it came e:to.zt. 1llen I came back here, after I came back fran Wash.i.rgton in about Mardl of 1964 to my same finn, I c:ail:i.rn.ted, I guess, to call JeySe].f a Replblican. I hadn't :really been called on to label myself in 'WCI'kin;J with Kennedy. I would have probably said in those days I was a OCDiet'Vative '[):mx'x:rat.

But in 1964 Wen I got back here I was retained by the Better GoveJ::nment Association to be their counsel, "Which was a part-tilDe thin:J that I did alag with the rest of my law practice. 'lbat

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activity was aanar.ilat anti-machine ytu might say in the sixties. George Mahin was the director of the EGA in these days ani we had a pzogra:m of litigation ani investigation of civil service :fraui, the prevailirg wage rate system. They used to regularly try to find. loafers ar.d payroll pa.dl'3i:rg ard t:h.irgs of that nature. It was sort of a taxpayer wat:chc'iog orientation. 'Bleir el11J.Xlasis was SCIII.'Bt.tlat different than the IGA 1 s is today. SO I WtJ.lld have labeled myself all t:h:ralgh the sixties I guess as an Q;Jilvie Republican.

Q. By \drlch ytu mean lllhat?

A. I don't know'. (laughter) A persa:1 who was drawn into the lllinois Rep.lblican Party t:h:ralgh Jl1f involvement with Ogilvie. I don't say that ~re. I just say I'm a Rep.lblican.

Q. so it wasn't a matter of doctrine. It was a matter of personal loyalty.

A: More than dcct:rine. My doctrinal politics could be fitted into either party I wtW.d say. I'm not goi:rg to sit ani try to analyze what t.he:( are. But I believe in American Federalism very Dllch. I believe 1.n as 1lllCh dec.lent:ralization of gove:mment as we can afford. I believe that sane thin:::Js require JOOre c::entra.lization. For exal'Iple, I believe in a st:rc.ng executive. I believe tha.t scme t.l'rl.n3s have to be resolved at the national level. Ya:J. can fit those kinds of-that's no different than, to pick faJ:ID.JS people, say the p::dlOSCI};:hy of Abraham Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt or Jcim Marshall.

Q. What qualities in Ted Kenned.Y did you JD:lSt admire?

A. He had very good. j~. He was 'tc:u3h· Be was maxvel.ously effective with people. He 'WOrked hard at his job. He was a quiak• stucly. Loyal. He was an e:noJ:T~DlSly effective politician.

Q. Was he loyal to people on his staff like you? A. Yes, very l11JCh so.

Q. What qualities did ycu least admire?

A. '!his wasn't xeally Ted at all ani so it isn't quite fair to lay it at his doorstep. But there was a quality of the royal family al:x:IUt the Kenned:ys that didn •t really 1::lother me at the time. I was a'lly a yourq person ani certainly didn •t farcy myself as beirg part of the Kennedy inner circle. But I t:hi.nk that aura has prcbably been at the root of sane of the stylistic criticisms of the Kennedys since that time, arrl it was detectable then.

Q. Why did ycu leave the Kennedy staff? A. My wife and. family mi seed Chicago very JU:il ar.d wanted to ccme back. They didn't like wash.irgton. I actually tal.ked. to Ted abcut leavirg a couple of weeks before the president got shat. '!hen it got delayed because of the assassination and all the 'bl:rDDil that folla.wi. I also had perceived by then after a year that bei.rg a

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senate staffer has its-it's a great experience b.1t to make a career out of it or make a even a five-year career out of it oc:W.d be a mistake in your personal develc:poent. '!here's a set of habits that you pick up on those leqislative staff jcbs that aren't good habits for you as a, oertainly not as a self-reliant effective lawyer. '!hey' re not saret:hil'q yoo oc:W.dn' t avercane if you did the job for five years b.1t I felt that I should get back to nrj law practice, an:i that neant either wash.irgtan or Chlcago an:i my family didn't like washi.rgton so we decided to CXIDe back here. I also personally didn't like the transient quality of~­ Maybe that was just where we lived. We lived in Mclean, Vixqinia which at that tilDe had a great many state deparbnent people an:i CIA people an:i you oc:W.dn 1 t tell if they were CIA. '!hey had sanewhat a cover. Ani military people of the navy captain, colonel level. 'lhose were very nice am able people but they were all tumirr;J aver e/er'j two or three or four years to go off on another tour. Ani it showed up in their kids am their families an:i really in your neighborhood. 'lllere was none of the sense of neighbo:thood that you have in Clrlcago or in the Clrlcago sul:mtls. I t.hink that was probably at the root of the-that plus the fact that I was never ~ at the root of my family's dissatisfaction with wash.irgtan. So I decided to cane back.

Q. Ani you rejoine:i the Rooks finn? A. Yes.

Q. Ani were counsel to the ~. Also to the Citizens camnittee to Evaulate COOk Cc::U'Ity GoVernment.

A. Which was Ogilvie's "Little Hoover camnissiCI'l. 11 Q. Yes.

A. In 1966, I oantinued to stay in t:cuc:b with Ogilvie, quite close touch. Ani in 1966 he ran for an:i got elected president of the COOk County Board. He ptanptly 8Ill'lOOl'1CEd a major (X'III!Dj ssion to study ani reo:a1111en:i refonn of COOk camty government to make it a m::o:e vital unit of gaverrment. In part, the motivatiCI'l for this was to establish gubernatorial stature. Ani so for al:aatt two years there was a series of suto:rmnittees of business leaders and academicians, laywers, and. other people on Ogivlie's staff who looked into all facets of ca.:mty government an::i made a variety of reoc ""erXiatia'lS for c:::han;Ji.rg COOk Q:lunty government. I was the oc:unse1 to that organization which in part was a ki.n:l of watdldog an:i coordinatin:J tunct.im. It became that. You can imagine Wen you proliferate all those ccmnittees and sulxxmnittees with st.ron:Jmi,n:ie, .indepen:Jent :miixied people an:i you 1 re an incumbent ycu've got to be a little bit careful, an:i you're an incumbent nmnin;J a campaign for gcvexnor lltlether it's been 8Ill'lOOl'1CEd or not, ycu've got to be a little bit careful aba1t what prcduct is produced fran tilDe to time ani the t.ilui.rq of it ani that sort of t:hin;J or it CXIUld cause sane political cxmplicatia'lS. Ani one of Jtrj, probably Jirj DDSt i:a;:lortant role really m::o:e than legal, was to keep my eyes open for thin;Js that might create awkward problems if they weren't hardle:i properly in this whole effort. Arxi I did that.

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Really I still cxmtinued to mai.ntain a full scale law practice. Shortly after I came back fran ~, I be:3M a partner in that ~irg finn, and that era I got very ll1VOlved in what wtW.d nc:M be the environmental litigation field. Henry Pitts ard I :really started their environmental practice in 1964 or so. Although fran time to time they'd dale work :in that fim. that you'd nc:M call envirannental, because they repxesented several steel CX'.IJPUlies which were am:>.rq the first to be challe:rqed. for excessive dischal:qes. And that had gone oo aver the years. I naan there were cases that-when I came there in 1958 there was a big case in the office against Replblic steel that went to the united states Bup%eme court over dumpirg into the Calumet River. But the volume picked up enont~JUBly in the sixties. And I still spent a lot of tilDe oo all kinds of qenerallitiqatian, began to do m:>re a;paals, but primarily environmental work for about three or four years.

Q. Were there any serious problems in the work of the "Little Hoover o:xmd asian?"

A. Not that I :recall. I have a very faint recollection of the details of the work product, prd:ebly l:lecause when Ogilvie got elected governor there was never any substantial follCM up that I rena:nber. '!here probably was ard I was focusirg an gcvemors. George DJnne has been an effective person ani he suoeeded Ogilvie as president of the county board ard I'm sure he used sane of the product of that Hoover CXIllmission. I just don 1 t recall.

Q. At what point as far as you '.re oc:n:emed did Richard Ogilvie begin a campaign for govemor?

A. (pause) Well, certainly by the time he had gotten elected as president of the COOk county board.

Q. Which was 1966.

A. 'lhe fall of 1966. You :know, maybe it was in his mini, I don't :know what was in his mind, specifically. If I ever did, I know I don't recall. Shortly after his election 't:h:irgs were bein:J p.rt into motion that were part of a canpdgn for gavan:>r. Early ard ~ infonnal like the Hoover ocmnj ssian t«:W.d be the best example. Maybe even prior to that because he had taken a very active role in the state sheriff's association as a sheriff, mic:b is a pz:etty good way to get a downstate n:c:epUan. I naan the sheriffs are iDportant people in m:st counties ard they're certainly part of the political pz:cx::ess in liJJS't counties. And it's a gcod way to get introduced to other parts of Illinois as not bilig just a big shot Chicagoan that 1 s oc:rni.n3' down there to get their vote. So no daJbt it crossed his min1 before he ran for president of the oamty board.

Q. In 1966 ani 1967 what was the nature ani the extent of your relationship with Ogilvie?

A. Well, I was a frien:i and a laWyer. I zepresented him oo sate matters. And sauethin;J of a confidante. And then the activity that I was involved in with the Hoover CXJTIJiission was prctlably the m:st

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significant. I was still in private practice. Ani he had, J'udge Holzer was his laywer on the, I believe, oo Judge Holzer got elected to the bench that year 1 in 1966 • Jfe had been his lawyer in the sheriff's office, fonnally the technical advisor ~like to the sheriff or that was the title. 'Dlen start.in; in the sprin:J of 1968 durJ..n; the cmrpdgn after the primaey it was nrt transition jet'> to develop a here in case he got elected. so I spent that summer an:i early fall doi.rq that. · Q. I' 11 get to that in a minute.

A. I wasn't veey involved with the ampaign. Q. I see.

A. I will mention one other ~ I 'WOUld like to have remain in confidence untU we can think al:x:ut it. In the fall of 1967 began there to be reports, nmr:n:"S that Ogilvie was beirg investigated for tax fraud. Maybe it was a little before that, it might have :been the summer. It developed that there was in fact sane sort of an IRS investigation. I represented Ogilvie, an::l briefly, a <:xqlle people, of other ncstly in dealin:J with aqents am~ infomation and arran;Jin; an :interview ultimately. 'lhat was viewed by the Ogilvie people as SCIIIe't:h:in; that may have been stirred up by senator Dirksen to keep Ogilvie :fran qet'tirq, elements, an:i other what you might call the old guard established elements of the party, to keep Ogilvie fran gettirq the JXIIlination for govemor. Maybe it wasn't Dirksen, maybe it was Altorfer. But Dirksen-because he was an ilnportant senator, a tremenic:l.lsly i:Dportant senator, was on the judicial:y oamnittee an::l had marvelous :relations with the department justice ard federal agencies-the insiders' ac:oepted mythology was that probably Dirksen was bel'linl it. I was never aware specific of anyt:l1irq that cxuld make that a prcnen thin;J. At least at that time they .believed it was him. About that same tilDe, Jc:hnson, President Johnsal l.aurx:hed a-there had been a scan:2l in san Francisco t:Ner the use of the assessor• s office for political cantril:utiaw which led to Wicbiellts am I guess probably convictions. 'lhe qist of the pract.ice cut there a;parentl.y was to deduct political c:xnt.ril:utia1S in the advertis~ quise of bein:J expense or SCIIIe't:l1i.ng else. 'lhat was said to be a CX'J'!'IIDOtl practice in Illitx>is in the sixties.

Anyway, this investigatioo 'WeTlt fozward. and I represented Ogilvie in oonnecticm with it. An:i it got to be banclled in a way was that I 't:hc::u;ht fairly political. 'lbere were lots of leaks, which ncwadays, hell leaks fran investigative agencies are considered de rigeur. these But in days they were shcx::ki.rg to even haJ:dened politicians. It just didn't ha];:pen. Ogivlie reme.mbered--t:hel:e's a justice I'm department ani sure there's an IRS regulation against it too. He remembered sane incident where, he told me cme tilDe a'bcA1t sanebcdy a1m:st gettirq fired aver it. It :really didn't J:la;pen.. '1bere were lots of these leaks qoirg on. An:i then there~ activity :in the fall of 1968, abart a month .before the election that wasn •t really necessary at that

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time, in the way of enforcement of IRS SIJDIDOl1SeS in ooort, so that you cxW.d have saneth.in:J that cxW.d be reported. For sane reason the press never picked up that P1ase of it. a.rt Ogilvie had had a p:etty close primary really. :Feq)le forget that he didn't beat Altorfer by very liiUCh. An:i Altorfer had, I 1:hco;Jht, probably nm a pretty effective canpaign. At least he did very well. It was maybe sixty-forty and Altorfer caxried important parts of the state. He made a rather effective dlarge, which many people up here in the Replblican Party -were cancerned abc:ut, that Ogilvie was too ambitirus. If he got elected qcNeXT'Cr, he'd give aver the COOk CClmty office to a Democrat-the suooessiCI'l was dictated-that WOJJ.d have to in fact ~ and it did JlaR?en. so ~ like this investigation was considered important, even thalgh there were m IRS problems that oqivlie had or that his canpaigns had. It tums out they were clean as one could imagine. At least as far as I could tell. a.rt the fear of this was a p:etty important thiJ'g. It worked out okay.

Q. All right. Let • s pause here a nanent.

Tape 1, Side 2

Q. Haw many people were as close to you in those years of 1967 and 1968 as close as you to Richard Ogilvie politically?

A. His closest advisor was Tan Drerman by a substantial degree in those days and all the way through really. Brian Whalen was his executive assistant and sort of han:lled the chief of staff in his county office. He had many people in the Replblican Party he had known. YO\.ll'q people that he got started with as a YO\.ll'q Replblican. People that were in the sheriff 1 s office or had cane cut of the sheriff 1 s office with him. An:i in sare ways you sholld probably count those ahead of people who were staff types like the way I wc:W.d view myself. I think def:initely so at that tilDe. I wasn't t.1'lrom as closely to him nearly as I was in the four years that we -were in the govel:lX)r's office when it was a very :intilnate day to day relationship WeJ:e I was involved in evexythinq. But the prirx:ipal persa1 WOJJ.d be Tan Dl:ennan.

Q. All right. one of the other iSS'leB of the 1968 ampaig:n cancerned Ogilvie's relatiooship with Richard cain. Did you play acy role in advis:inj or helpirq him with that affair?

A. No, n:1t 111UCh. I'm tJ:yinJ to think. '!be cain scardal broke, it wasn't in 1968, it was before that. I'm~ to ze•erter when. cain had been his t.q> investigator in the sheriff's office ani, in zeb:'cspect, may have been a syn:ticate figure. He was such a-I knew Richard cain, you know, reasonably well. We had been involved in the 1962 canpaign a little bit and I dealt with him occasionally in the sheriff's office. He was an extremely bright persa1 and obvirusly a clever person. He was the kini of persa1 who cxW.d be very useful. If I were a lawful enforcement official nat lcrnrli.rJ:J anythirq else

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ab:lut hiln, I prci)ably wculd have t:hc:u3ht, "Gee, this is a pzetty han:iy 9llY to have arcun:i. II

But I think the cain scarrlal broke shortly after he got elected. In fact, it broke before he got elected president to the oo.mty boaxd. It tumed out that that was helpful. When it was brtR.lght up in 1968 it had been thralgh a campaign all:eady and me of the tllirgs you oould say, ''Well, -we've been thJ:ough all that before. 11 I believe that there was enough of an exposure of the cain problem in 1966 in the oamty board president's canpaign that it was in the canpaign. I think that's the case. At any rate it had been cut an:l aired ani lliJC'h debated at least a year before this 1968 electioo. 'the facts will speak for themselves there.

Q. Another element in his ampaign was the reprt:aticn deserved of be~ a 1:oJgh guy law enforcement person ard that was in the cxmtext. of 1968 of sane w:ban riotin; in the spr~ ani of course the De!rto::ratic convention in the summer. O:W.d you oontril::ute any advice or ideas to the developoeut of that law enforcement guy image?

A. Not really, other than the work that I had done back in 1962 to help provide sane issue material to go with the ''talgh guy," "law and order." At that time, ~used that p-rrase. Q;Jilvie had been a tank sergeant ani had half his face shot off. Ani when they pieced it together it gave hiln a badly scarred left side of his face and his jaw had to be reoonstructed. As a result he looks 1lllCh nore door than he is. It's really attril:utable to the injw:y I think. SCIDeh.ow the tough law ani order image just nicely looked the part. Ani the campaign theme was really dramatized am driven haDe by all those raids of vice parlors ard illegal activities that they cxn:iucted when he was sheriff. '!hat lirgered on aver. Ani it was an easy sale for hiJn to make.

Q 0 Okay. let's turn to the transitiCI'l. 'What :instructi.CI'JS did he give you when he assigned that task to ycu?

A. Not:hirg specific that I recall. Just ''why don't ycu tey to prepare a transition plan." I •m sure that I 'WtUld have spent much mre time d.l scussing that with Drerman. Tan Drennan is an extraordinaxy, able, thcughtful person. An:i also very JlllCh of a hal:d driv~ executive. In a canpaign set:tin;J, he does D:Jt want a lot of people gettilq un:ier his feet. I suspect tha.t,part of his 'JIDtivation, am he was right alx:ut this, was that rather than me si'ttirg aram::l canprlgn headquarters tryirq to think of sare issue that they didn't need or do~ saoet.hin;;r that sanebody else could do just as 'Well, that this would be an intelligent use of It¥ tilne. Ani it was. It was a good idea as it tumed out. It cxmtr.ibrt:ed a lot to the fact that Q;Jilvie got off to a pzetty quick start as gover:mr.

Q. How did you go abcut prepar.irg that plan?

A. Jcim Dailey arxi I, Jcim. Dailey is rrM the can:lldate for state treasurer. At that time he was a law student, or he had started law school am then .interntpted it to :bEo ne chief of staff for Senator Al:ri.rgtal who was the president of the Illinois state senate ani the

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leader of the Replblican Party in the senate. And a very able, activist legislator. Arrirgta1. had 1l'a:'e of a staff operation ani a progx:ammatic progzam as a senator than probably al:.mcst anybody has in either party for quite a few years. Maybe YtJU can find sane athe:r exmrples that were CXJ.Uparable but in an era when YtJU really still had biennial sessions so that the leqisla'blre wt'W.d meet every athe:r year for, actively really for tbJ:ee DDnths Arrirr;Jtal was geared. up in the same way that a United states senator wculd be or an iDpxtant cc:n.;;p:ess:ma who was the head of a major CXI'IIIII.i.ttee. And Dailey was an ext:raordinaJ:y, bright ycL11'g man Who ran his staff. other people on his staff were-o::n;ressm CXll:'CXJI'an was there. Olite a few others. later an I think Jim ~ may have been.

Q. Possibly.

A. He may have been, alt.hcu;)h he may have been on the lnlse staff. But Dailey workeci at em' law firm that summer ani we spent as much time as we could fi.rd all S1.1l'IDDer and early fall dra.ft..irq what we oonsiClered a plan for the transitiat which was primarily focused m:u:-e a1 haw to organize the governor's office and pretty much recx.lllll:ende the organization that resulted. P:rc:X:Iabl:y it :tesembled. the Kennedy White Hcuse ox:ganization :rrm-e than a.nyt:b.i.rq else, if I were to CX'.Illpal"e it to saret.h.in;J that eve:rybody would know all aboi.It fran re.adil'q the newspapers.

Q. Did YtJU c:x:I'.ISCiaJSly st.i:mJlate that?

A. No, we tried to :recc "llerd what we t:hc.:lu;Jht 'WOUld be most effective for e>;ilvie.

Q. Did YtJU sb.dy l'IJXiels tha.lg:h?

A. Yes. sure. I tried. to read evezything that's ever been written aklout the presidential office for exmrple. 'D1ere was less aklout Illwis. I dal't remember when Tan LittllllllOOd's beck al:la.1t Gave.mor Horner was written. But I didn't read it at that time, I know that. I read it when I was in the governor's office. 'lbe idea of a st.ral1; governor's office was probably the most illporl:ant theme that 'lll'XIerlay this transition plan. 'lhe activity that was i:ap:lrtant for the d.epartmants was to st1Xly the depart:ments quickly du'.l:'irq the transitiat with teams of people. Which in fact happened. I •m net so sure that we paid as much a.ttentiat to the results of those sbdies as we probably should have as we got blsy in January. I haven •t looked at the transition plan sin::le January of 1969, so I •m ptetty rusty. But the fiscal questia1 was addressed as a political ani intellecbJa.l issue.

Q. Did Ytu envision a. shadow cabinet head or egerr:y beads right on the gaver.nor' s staff?

A. No, we envisioned llavinJ several pecple on the staff who would have lia~ Sal responsibility with depart:ment beads. Pretty Dl.ld1 the way it resulted. 'lhat staff was fairly small tl'Jol.¥3h. At the be:;Jimir.g-I guess it got a little bi9;Je;r--b.tt at the beqinn.irg [of the transitiat] it was Dailey, myself and Brian l4halen. later on it

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was Richard Mathias ani B. Oglesby, 'Who is new legislative aide to President Reagan. All of these people had very sucoessful careers. Bill Hanley, who is new a lawyer in Spri.rqfield.

Q. Did you e:rgage any cxnsultin;J fi.J:ms at this stage in the transition plannin;j?

A. Not that I recall. I 1m qlad you mentioned that. 'lhere was a rival transition study that samelxrly was preparin;J. I •ve forgotten who. I think that was part of Drerman 1 s su;gestian that I should qet off ani qet this done. I've forgotten who the devil was doixg that. It was a consultant though. I don't knc:M that it ever got OCI11?leted. one of the many thin:Js that Drennan taught me was to meet deadlines. And ours was done am I gave it to Ogilvie a'l election day.

Q. Literally?

A. Literally. If I were to qive smelxrly good advice on transitions, it's qet your ideas to the can:tidate on election day. He's got a lot time am that's the only time for the next year that he 111 have any time. Well I literally 'Wel'lt aver to the union I.sague Club with Ogilvie ani took h.iJn tl"Jrtu;;Jh what the esse:rx:e of it was. It was a notel:x:ok maybe an inch thick. It talked alxllt persarmel needs. I think in sare cases we may have even suggested sare people. we oertainly did for the staff. I renanber recxmmen:i:ing Drll.ey ani it included a cxn:::ept of a J::ujget blreau ani the type of person who should head it. In fact it didn't occur oo electioo day, I dan •t think, but shortly a:fterwal:Os. 'Ihe specific reo amnen:iation of John McCarter, I think, probably came fran me. Q. ell, is that riqht?

A. In fact I got the idea fran a lawyer ani frieni named Erwin SChulze who was fran oak Park where McCarter had qrown up. Ani Erwin had left the [Pitts) firm as an active lawyer to heoaoe a head of a cozp::~ratian. He tried to recruit McCarter ani lost out to Booz, Allen, which is where McCarter was work:iniJ. azt we used that firm, cane to think of it, in the transitioo. we used Booz, Allen quite extensively 0

Q. Dlrixg the actual transition?

A. I think so, yes. Not McCarter but su•eOOdy else. Because I remember meeti.rgs in the Booz, Allen offices. axt that was a1, you JcncM, tc:Mard December. so, a:eyway, on electiCil day I 'Wel'lt tl"Jrtu;;Jh this ani Ogilvie asked me if I 'WOUld be willirx] to be his special cnmsel ard I said yes. Q. Had you anticipated that?

A. Not really. I thought that ~ like that might ha};:pen. BUt you knc:M, I really hadn't focused on it very JlllCh. Q. What was his mxxi that day? can YtU :recall?

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A. 'Ihatghtful. I th.ink p:z:etty canfident. Relaxed. Far the previous six Da'lths he had been campaig:n.:l.n; as DlCh. as time would prem.it. 'lhis meant gett.i.n;J up at five o'clCICk, beirg at plant gates ani going all day lorg. In the fall of CXIUI'Se makir.g railroacl staticms ani t:raveli.ng all aver ani workirJ:J until late in the even.in;J. S1.¥:idenly on election day you get up in the JIOmi.r.g to vote ani there's not:h.i.rg to do till night. ~ else, every other p:>litician in the state is OJilSL1l'lll!!d with the election, or virtually evetya1e. So there you are with the whole day ahead of you. Be had a nice relaxed day ani, as I reca.ll, the p:>lls showed him as a likely winner, alt:hcu:Jh by no means a certainty. we had a pleasant couple of hours.

Q. A question about the transitiat J??.an that you proposed. As you look back at it, to t«lat extent was ~t the p:rc:duct of just sane abstract logic ani to t«lat extent was it based an your pe:rcepticms of the man Richatd. Ogilvie?

A. It was those two th:in;Js and JJri intuitive JXJtia1S about people, that is, people that were go:inj to be in the admini.stratia'l.

Q. So it tailo%'9d to irm.viduals?

A. To sane extent, yes. For example I l.'el':alled that I had reo annwarrled George Mahin as the symbol of clean government. And Mahin beca:ae director of revenue. To sane extent I had in mind sane peq;>le at the governc:r's staff. So I guess I had ~t about it. certainly Dailey. I 1llllSt have t.hought about myself. It's i.ncorx::eivable that I didn't. Drennan-I wasn't sure \tb!re D.rennan wanted to fit it. In fact, he did nat want to be cn the payroll.

Q. Did you consider reo::a:Der:dinq a deputy gcve:m:r or chief of staff?

A. In a sense we had a chief of staff. Brian Whalen was his dlief of staff at the county, although with DDre limited naticns of t«lat that meant then, sort of a chief administrative officer would be pertlaps a :better desaripticn. And it was aSSJDDPd that he 'WOUld do the same th.irq ani :be the chief of staff in the Spri.n;field office. Nol:xxly calleci him deputy qave:rnor ani he didn •t functicn the way • • • Brian was ani is a VArV sqtrlsticated persa1 about p:llitics, so he Ol.::.lllbined both adm:i.nist:i:atve ani p:>litical ski.lls. Be had a. I was calleci special .ccunsel, *ich ~y :means you cx:uld do anyt:hi.n; and fit within the title, blt I was probably the chief advisor to Og'ilvie other tl1an Diennan 'tb:> was perceived. ani fu:nct.ioned DDre as a p:>litical advisor, although in an office like that the political advice is int:.ertwined with the prog:r:aDDatic or :public relaticns or oth.er advice that you give.

Q. Perscn1el advice?

A. Personnel advice. '!bat was DDre Brian than me, 1JS1Ja] l y.

Q. Pe:rsamel?

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A. Yes. we had the bJdqet blreau function which was Jam McCarter ard his aides, George Ranney, Jam cotten, steve Rlillips, Paul KUrz. 'lhat was about it. Ard Bob Man:Uiwille. In the early days. '!here were just a few people, just a harxifu1 of people for alxJUt four or five nart:hs who functioned as an integral. part of the governor's staff. It was a new group ani we all came in together ani there was no sense of any b.lreaucratic gulf at an. It really never oocured, in my view, even after three or four years. An:i the bJdget bureau by then was quite big ani was SCIDeWhat insti'b.Itionalized. Dailey was in charge of issue develq::m:tnt ani pzcgrammic matters for quite a ran;Je of the govemment, but not entirely. 'nle tu:lget blreau regularly provided staff SUR,X>rt for governJr' s projects as 'Well as what you wculd nomally think of as l::ui;Jet b.treau activity. Brian wculd be the closest thi.n;J to a chief of staff.

Q. Okay. I.et' s tum fran the transition plan that yru developed to the transition itself. What role did you play in that? A. As I recall George Mahin was named the transition oocn:dinator for Ogilvie am. I was involved in the little o:mnittee that was SUR;XJSed to function regularly. I don't :recall that we did. But I was rather close to George Mahin. Ard I saw hi:m a lot. I oant.ilnled to be fairly actively involved, alt.h.algh I was still practicin:J law ani tryirg to win:i that down. I was very involved in the fiscal plannil'g that lead to the i.nc::ate tax.

Q. I'll cane to that. Even dur~ the transiticm?

A. Oh, yes. It was at least at the level of me ard Drlley. D.lrin} the period prior to the election, it was ctwi.OlS that the i.nc:xDe tax was goirg to be the only alternative. I dalbt if I ever talked to Ogilvie about it, or even to Drennan. 'lhey weren't really tal..kirq about it in the cmrpaign. Neither cardi.date wanted to. Ncixldy was goirg arc:mrl sa.yin;J, "We're goin;J to have to have an i.ncaDe tax." If anyt.hin;, I think they pJ:"Cilably were leavin;J the q.posite illpression, that it was a desperate last resort or SCIIIethin:llike that. But j11!!Dpdjately after the election, Simeon I.elard, a distiguished professor of, I believe, gcvemmental finan::e at Nort::hwest.el.Is that right?

Q. I'm not sure. A. I think it was Northwestem. It was, I think, Gave1:n% Shapiro, maybe even Governor Kerner when he was still govern.r, which was until about March 1968, had C'XJD!Di ssioned a govern.r' s cxmni ssion to study the fiscal predicament that Illinois was in. 'lhere had been in 1967 ani 1968 a whole series of efforts by the gcverrxn- ard by Arrirgton to o:me up with adequate sources of :revenue. H:st of these took the fonn of ''broadeners", so called broadeners of the sales tax. Sane of which were very shdlar to the recent service tax. 'lbeir ecxn:JDic effect was quite similar, ani !'lOW as yoo krXJW that was just held unconstitutional a OOJple of lDOtiths ago, with many of the same ideas that were use:1 to attack the broadeners back in 1967 an:! 1968. None of those really gelled adequately ard as a result they l.i.lrped thl:ough the election try~ to keep the state ftan havin;l a perceived deficit.

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By the time we took office in early January, the si'b.latiem was really pretty desperate. 'lhe first thing that we did was prepare am subnit to the legislature a message that identified, fooused em an:i tried to convince the legislature am the establishment and the p.lblic that there was really a terrible fiscal crisis. By that tiJDe we had recognized that there was no alternative. NcXxxiy was saying it yet. B.rt there was a series of actions taken thrcu;Jh January an:i FebruaJ:y ani March that were to lay the groundwork for the bitter pill which came cm April 1.

Q. Right. let's tum to that for a DaDetxt because we're em that subject. '!here were several messages or actions rather in the early admi.nist.ratiat.

A. Am if I hadn't been packing I've got the old •••

Q. What I remember was laying off a good rnrmber of highwa¥ workers. one was an important message the govermr delivered early m Februacy and the theme was that he was going to manage the state in a way that it had never been managed before. so there was an E!DJiilasis on austere fiscal management. Did ycu oontrib.rt:e to that theme?

A. Yes. 'lhis was an al'tgrcMth of work that Drlley an::l I had starta:i in the summer. Shortly after the election the I.elani O"mni ssion came to hold active 11'11!e'tin;Js. Am Dailey an:i I and Shane An:ierson, who had been a campaign worker and is ncM a partner in the Reuben & Proctor finn, at that time she hadn't gone to law sdlool yet-began to atten:l these I.elard Comnjssion 11'll!e'tin;Js an:i worked with Mr. I.elani an:i others on the camoission ani tried to shape, helped decide what Ogilvie's desires should be ani clear that thrcu;Jh Ogilvie, arxi then shape the reoc:mmen::lation of the cnmd ssion to help lay the gramdwork for whatever it was we had to do. I don't J:eiDFI!Ihp.r when the CX'JIIIDission reported. It must have been late 1968 or early 1969. Q. It was 1969 I believe.

A. certainly by Febnlary. It had reo ""ended an inxiDe tax. Q. '!bat must have been a delicate jab work:irq with a cxmnission 'tklich was a crea:bJre of a Deno:::x:atic administratim.

A. Well, it probably was, althcu;Jh I have no rer::;x)llectiat of any hostility or trickeey or partisanship in dealing with any of the people at that cxmnissim. I don't evan z:a•EWJ!ler who they were. '!here were representatives of the leadership in the legislature, I'm sure. Probably John Touhy or his designee. I just dan't remember. Everytxxiy in both parties and the citizen 1DFII'!bers were, as I z:ecal.l, pretty constJ:uctive and sort of fatalistic alxut it, arxi in retrospect, the Oem:x:ratic members felt, "Well 1 if Ogilvie's going to war this jacket arrJWa.Y 1 ycu know 1 we cbv'ioJsly need. it." I don't remember it being a tricky pttxleSS to negotiate. Part of it may have been that we did a better jab than we realized that we were doing at the time. At any rate, I did spend quite a lot of tiJne m that.

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Q. YCJUr clear strategy was to persuade them to reo ••••ern an incx:me tax? A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

A. And in the goveznor's office, the governor's initiatives in early 1969 were to tJ:y to denw:1nstrate that he was tcyjn;J to manage the state, tighten the belt ard even with that YQl weren •t gojn;J to make it. And thirdly to shc:M through the results of the govemment the reports that 'WOUld be c:an:i.r:g cut that that was the only altemative.

In retrospect, those Plblic opinial shapin;J efforts didn •t suooeed very well, and it's obvious why they didn't. People didn't want to believe that there had to be an incx:me tax because they didn •t want to be payjn;J an inoc:roe tax. As the· old sayjn;J goes, the wish is father to the thought. Ycu could hit them with facts and figures and rationality l.mtil they were blue in the face, ard the man on the street in the first place would be bored to death by it ani in the secorxi place he didn't want to believe it 'MrjWay.

'Iha.t was particularly tJ:ue in the part of the electorate that was Ogilvie's p:7ft'er base. 'lhat is, the Replblican ard to sane extent In:1ependent parts of the electorate. '!hey were unwillirq to caoe to that conclusion and, in many cases, they felt betrayed by the action he took~ he prcp::sed the incx:me tax. It was nm:e than just beirg for sanet.hirg unpc:pllar. 'lhere was an un.::lertale of betrayal, I think. 'Iha.t was because he had been so effective at selljn;J the state on the kird of person, the p.Jblic persanna, that he had. Here was this tough scotsman, law and onier, pzetty frugal, persaal.ly frugal. You knew Ogilvie used to disclose his inoane tax retums ard literally all he had was what he got fran his pmlic salaey and his house in Northfield. He was a very poor man. People just felt that kin.:i of a gey' s not gojn;J to lay a billion dollar ii1cx:me tax on us. Ani by April 1, that's just what happened.

It took years. It wasn't really until after Ogilvie had been beaten and they'd seen sane of the other alternatives that can occur that sane people came ara.m:i to the point. It was a gradual pn:cess. Yes, the pxogram that's reflected in these legislative DeSsages that are part of the pmlic :recxmi, that was a OC'I1Scious strategy pr:etty :nuch alorg the lines that I've just described.

Q. All right. Back~ to the transition period. In addition to makin;J the fiscal crisJ.S a top priority on the new administrations agenda, what other t:hin:Js did YQl CXI'lSider to be high priority activities?

A. Recrui'ti.rq people, althc:u:Jh I wasn't terribly :involved in that. I had a few reoc 1111en:1ations tnat I was involved in, :but by ani large I was not. Recruit.in;J directors ani assistant directors ani pecple of that stature. My recollection was that was primarily George Mahin and a little group that worked with him, I dcm't even remember who was involved. 'lhere was always a certain BDDmt of p.llljn;J and hauljn;J

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back ancl forth l:letween different pec:ple anc1 different factialS CNer all kinds of 2tR;)Ointees. I wasn •t very involved in that. I later l::eoame i:nti:mately involved in persamel selection. But that C'.ICCUr'ed, started pet:haps in the spr.ir.q as I became :more of a funct:ionin:] part of the govex:nor's o.peration.

Q. An clbviOIJS element of your elaborate transition plan was to have the administ:ration begin fran a l:UIU'lirg start. How did YQ1 d.urirg the transitiCI'l perlcxi go al:lout tl:y.in;J to guarantee that l«Uld happen? staffirlg is cme aspect, h1t wre there others? A. wen, havin; sane people in place, ha.v:in;1 sa.ae ideas alx:ut initiatives that the governor might make that wculd receive pJblic attention ancl C~C:~Wideratial fran the l&g'islatu:re.

Q. What were these?

A. Ch, gosh, I sha.Ud have the, they're reflected pxetty well in the l&g'islative messages.

Q. Okay.

A. Not all of t:hem., thollgh. ~ were a llt.lole series of local qove:tTJIIWimt legislative prcp:lSals; which in t:hClse days 'We woold have called refor.ms. ~t might be debatable as to how ll'I.1Ch refo.tlllirY;J there was involved. I don't even :taJIP"tter them all. :eut they related to our overall legislative strategy. If ycu want me to take a minute I'll go into it. tet•s go off the recmd. (tape stopped) Ogilvie pxaposed a llt.lole variety of civil service refm:ms in units of Cook CDmty government that were tied to the o.rganizatial, the Democratic organization. Election law refm:ms. '1hey were go.irg to eliminate the Chicago Board of Elections and. have a ocuntywide boa:r:tl of elections. All of these had good government c::JYer:'ta1es and sa.ae of them he had pxcp:lSed as president of the cxunty l:x:md. In these days there used to be a lot :more clebate CNer electiCI'l fraud for i.nst:arx:e. '!here was a lot :more debate CNer the pay.rollers. Eve:ryb:X1y in city ancl COI.tl1ty government virtually was on a 't:e!rporaey a.R;)Oinbient, it seemed. '!bat probably wasn't really true h1t it was the p.Jblic presumption. Ch, I'm sure cme of the pxq:osals was to p.tt. eve:cyJ:xx1y that you oould l.11'XHrr civil service. 'lhe:l:e wre pxqx.v:zals that dealt with merit in the police department and prc:bably in the fi:te depart::ment, but certainly in the police department. A 'Whole series of these "t:l'1ir~Js. Many of whic:b I either c:hJ.;J up fran pxcposals that had been made by primarily the i.n.:1eperdent JI'DVEII8l'Jt in Chicago CNer the years or ~ons fran Dl:ennan who has really an encyclcped.ic knc:wleege of local government and is a very thol:a:lhtful. sb.nent of gt'JV'el:l'1l'Q, althollgh he'd be sm:pr.ised to bear me say this probably and. m:st of the people l!obo kl'DI him by his repltatial as a political advisor might JXJt think of him in that sense. ~ t«:W.d think of him as able •. But he really is a sbJdent of gcvemment.. He had sa.ae ideas. An:i then quite early I met with Alderman Despres privately ard asked him for his ~ons.

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Arrl we gro.nn cut a set of bills. 'Ihere were probably ten of them on these subjects. '!bey were introduced an:i Arrin;Jtan ran them cut of the senate with party line votes an:i they were aver in the halSe camn:ittees by early March. Arrl we got saDe of them c:ut of oamnittee an:i got them on the floor. '!his related to oor negotiatin:J strategy. we felt that if we were goin:J to have to have an incane tax we were goi.rq to have to have Dem:lcratic votes. A lot of them, not just token. It CXlUldn't be just a Replblican inoaDe tax. In the final analysis we didn't achieve that well enough either in the sense of the actual ru:mbers of votes or in, certainly not in the p.lblic peroept.im. It was Ogilvie's incane tax. Arrl I guess that was probably :inevitable. But 'ttlat John 'I'ouhy the speaker used to call the Drennan Bills 1 because he pretty CXILLb.;-tl.y perceived that it was Drennan w.ho in the final analysis thalght of this series of bills that would undercut the Machine's power in COOk CoJnty, ani that they were part of the bu'ga.i.n;irJ3' material for the c1osin:J days of the session.

Q. 'lbere were to be sacrificial • • •

A. If necessary, yes. We tried to pass them. An:i in a CXR.Jple of instances we actually did. cna of them, I had a1e that I had 'WOrked with Art Telcser, who is now the majority leader?

Q. I think yes.

A. He was then a brarrl new representative. Arxi he had nm for representative ani had been, a CXR.Jple of years before, excluded fran the ballot by the old Chicago Board of Elect.icns ard Sidney Holzman. 'nley knocked hi:m off the ballot for saDe technical reasons. Arrl I was invOlved, the case went to the supreme cow:t ani they llPlel.d the action of the Board of Election Qmnissicms. As a result of that process I'd leamed fran goi.rq thralgh it that there were le;al huLdl.es in pJrSUi.rg that kin.:i of a case. SO I gat the bright idea of takin; the provision that's in the federal law for vct:.iig rights an:i other discrimination, section 1983 of the Civil Rights Act, which in vecy grand, general terms says it's illegal ani you have a cause of action if you would deprive a:ey person of their civil rights. I adapted that to illinois votin;J law an:l we had a bill in that would add that provision, which would give people a private sillple remedy that wcW.d clearly make equitable and other :relief available for deprivations of their rights W'¥ier the e1ectia1 cc:de, not just vct:.iig rights, :but their rights as can:iidates.

I'm jumpin:J ahead of it, :but it's amsin;J that this gat c:ut of canmittee and it laid on the calerxmr for JID'lths. CDJe it got c:ut of the house, it would pass in the senate. 1bere was no questim about that. so the oenxx:rats had--Tcuhy had the votes. BUt at the day• there was a day in the mid:ne part of JUne when Ogilvie ard O!ley had made a deal on the incane tax thralgh George Dmne. '!his was about the fifteenth of June or thereabouts. We'd gene aramd 'Ialh.y an:i McGloon, w.ho were tougher negotiators, am had ~ thralgh George D.mne, w.ho always has had a fine :relatia1ship Wl.th Ogilvie, to make a

Jeremiah Marsh Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 21

deal aver the incxme tax. I don't even ra•eoler what the other elements were, blt for aoout six hrurs that day there was a deal.

Clyde Qloate, and in fact Talhy, had IXJt been consulted. And the word came dam fran Chicago a1 the l):mx:ratic side that there was goin; to be a vote a1 the incxme tax, and it was goin; to be, as I :recall, three percent across the board a1 corporations and :iniividuals. 'lhe big issue that the Oewmt:ats had been pressin; was a differential, m::n:e for corporations than for :iniividnal s.

Clyde Qloate decided to teach Talhy a lesson, or D!lley a lesson. I'm not sure which. At~ rate, he went to, I believe it was Jim Peterson who had this bill em the calendar, and said, ''Why don't you call your bill? I'll put sane votes em it." Peterson called the bill and, by God, there were sane I'leloocratic votes that suppJrted it. It passed the halse. As best as I can recall, that was prd:lably the only element of our "Drennan Bill" program that passed. well, I'm sure Touhy got the point. But the bill got over to the senate and it passed.. Ironically, later, four or five years later, they "recodified" the electioo code and that provisicn got drq;:ped a:rt in the recodification. I wonder heM that happened.

Q. Well, we' 11 have to pause here and stop.

Tape 2 I Side 1

Q. You've talked aoout two themes of the transitia1 plarmin:J. one of them fiscal; one of them sane partisan measures. What other ooncentratians might not have been evident in sane of the documents? For exatl'ple I •ve read aoout sane of the enviramlental legislation plannirg, sane of the law enforcement things. Arlythin;J else? A. 'lhe law enfort:lE!lDel"lt stuff was addressed ptetly early, prd:lably st:arti.rg fairly early in the transition, because we did have a group that began to meet on legislative c:1raftin;J and develq>in;J legislative prq;JOSals. I'm sure Bill Hanley was involved in that. staffin;J generally. 'lhe people, oollectin; people ani gettirJJ them in place, getti:rg them ready to take office was another major preoccupation. I wculd say fran the issue side of things, t:hcugh, prc::iJably nat mJCh m::n:e than I've described.

Transitions are chaotic things m matter ht::Atl organized you try to make them seem. '!here 1 s an encn::mc:us CXIllin;J together of people that haven't-they're a1mst like ampaigns. Canpaigns are a little bit worse I think. But pecple who haven't worked. together before, maybe they did briefly in the c;anprlgn, :t:ut there are always a lot Jl'Ore :newcaners that you drag into the task force of this department or workirg an sane canmittee or reoc:llllle1'di. No mtter haw' orderly you try to make it, you're net very S'Jo:»ssful. You see that as you watch presidential transitions. 'lhere isn't the preoocupaticm fran media on eve.cy act of the president or ~ advancement of this irxiividual or that irxlividual. And there aren •t as DBnY leaks and trial balloons to try to see if so and so 'WOUld be a good secretaty of treasUI:y.

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'!here isn't that 1lllCh inteJ:est in it fran the press, generall¥· Although there prc:i)ably is in Spr.injJfield, in the city of Springfield itself, because they're a little bit like the Mandarins. 'lhey've absorbed lets of beu'barians aver the years Md this new invasion is one that has to be ocped with. Q. Were you sperxlirq JlllCtJ. time in Sprirqfield?

A. Not very much, no, at that stage. I.ater I usually spent Tuesday, Wednesday, ani 'Ihursday in Sprin;field each week. Ani then at sare periods I just spent, I 'WOOld be down there all week. For exmople, the last two weeks in June, or there might be other times. But I oxrtinued to be based in adcago where at that time we were• well, all the way t.hJ:ough, we had enjea;yo]:ed to have more of a Chicago presence for the govemor. Because it's awfully dan;Jerous ani awfully easy to be a Sprirr:Jfield gcvemor am not have nuch contact with sixty-five percent of the electorate which is seiVed by the Chicago metUa. <:gilvie had always been a pretty good T.V. J?Olitician am a good media politician ani was OCilSCiOJS of those t.h.in;Js.

All the way t.hJ:ough there was an effort made to have the ~r up here so that you got Clrl.cago coverage as well as legislative am state government oove:raqe cut of Sprirgfield. It helps you a little bit to avoid the filtration pzooess that cxx::urs when tl1in;Js are reported out of Sprirgfield--even within the meclia OJ:gmlization the eclitors back up here den •t see t:hirr;Js as l:leinj as iDportant as they might be. It 1 s frustratirq for the newsmen in Sprin;field to go t.hJ:ough this themselves. An;1 it's very frustratirq fran a politician's st:ampoint. You'll make proposals an:i make speeches ani it doesn't even get covered. Whereas, if you OCilB up here and fim an occasion you can get sare oaveraqe. Ard the same }ileD::menal has to work in the st. liJUis area to the extent that you can, ani ycu've gat other regions of the state, Peoria or Rockford or Qympaign or downstate deep scuth. Q. Fran yan- perspective, in what way did the gcvemor elect participate in this transitioo work?

A. Well, he was involved all along. I mean, he met CX'I'1S'tantly with all these people that were doin} thi.rJJs. Am met, as I :recall, several times a week with the fonnal. transitia'l apparatus. I'm sure he met daily with Tan Drennan. I WDlld say I probabl.y met with him a oouple of times a week. No, he was vexy involved. Q. talat abcut his .i.nal:gura1 oerEmJny am address? Did you oantr.ibute ideas to that?

A. I did to the address. I da1 't raneni er-I did su1::stantia.l.ly to the acth'ess.

I wasn't in Sprin;Jfield the day of the inmJuraticn by dloioe. Paul sinal was elected lieutenant govern:r ani we had a-the gcvern:r' s office in Qrlcago had literally, alm::st literally no office space . other than the gove:mor •s own office an:l that of his secretaey. '!here was space em the floor below that was alf{'OSedly the gcvetTX~r's space,

Jeremiah Marsh Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 23

but the lieutenant governor used it when he was in town. 'lbat worked fine when they were in the same party. But ycu ocW.dn •t be sharin;r offices with as able am effectively an opponent as Paul sinrm. He was a candidate for governor fran the day he got elected lieutenant governor. Just obvious. I have et'lODIDlS respect for Si.D:m. Arrl think highly of him am liked him. But we had to figure out a way to get canb:ol of the space without 1:lavi.rg an unseen).¥ incident, \itlere we waz:e t.hl:'c7.dig SCJDebx1y out of the office or saDethin;J. So I stayed up here that day to just take oantrol of that space so we 1 d have a little bit of staff quarters. Ultimately the governor's space that you see aver there now, which inclu:ies the Whole twentieth floor plus expansion on the twentieth-first floor, a1DDst 1'D1e of that existed. SO I missed the inauguraticn. Q.. . So the need was to p,.ysically ocx:upy the space the m:mmt it was • A. At least it was in my mind. In my mini I wanted to be sure that we didn •t cxme in there the next day ani fird that scmabody had cl'la.n3ed the locks. 'Ihen we'd have to t:hmw' sinrm' s office out in an \n1Seemly way. or maybe nat. Maybe then we'd be sb.1ck with nothin;J. At arr:1 rate, in retrospect, it was prd:Jably not a, sudl a vital preoccupation that I thought it was at the time. But we had to have a little bit-a few offices in which to function. So I stayed up here for inauguration day.

Q. What other transition matters Wt'IUld ycu want to describe?

A. Offharxl, I don't have anyt:hirg.

Q. I have one last point that gets into the administl:ation, but it certainly took sane planJ'lin;1 durin;r the transition. 'Ihere was, early in the administration, a sort of meetin;J at Allertal of, I believe, the department heads am presumably the governor's staff as well? A. Yes.

Q. Did you plan that or have any role in its cr::ta!pt.ian?

A. I was involved in that. I think it ws George Mahin's idea. Ani best as I can recall ~t began to--when was that, Februal:y?

Q. I think so or maybe even Januaey bJt -.ybe Febl:ual:y.

A. 'What began to ha];pm illlllpdj ately was what happens in arry executive office like this. 'lhe proxilnity an:i the day to day contact give the staff, the governor• s staff, a lot more aooess to the governor and nDre influerca. Ard if they're good, that's good. Ard if they're not, that's bad. But ycu beqin to get the first stages of the :r;benanenon, that scmeone like GeoJ:qe Reedy bas written so elegantly about. Ultilnatel¥ it gets to isolation if ytU're mt careful. It's hard to do that WJ.th the governot but it Jlai:pens with the president.

It never really happened to ~vie bJt it did bec:n•e manifest in the relationship that the directors had with the governor. It was

Jeremiah Marsh Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 24

probably inevitable. 'Ihey all meet with the govemor, when they're selected. 'lhey have a nice talk. He tells them, "I want you to do the best ~ab possible and I want you to be my director of conservat1on," or whatever. Ani they get a sense of direct relationship ard of easy access that's just not reality. He doesn't have that kini of time. If thiJgs don't get staffed out right for presentation, if he's just t.a:kiig director's proposals too quickly and freely you have problems. So you've got to have a little llDre balance in this carmm.ication process. 'Ihe staff sees to that.

But we had several very strorg mimed directors. I've fOJ:gOtten who it was, but it may have been Geol:ge Mahin, it might have been Bill Rutherfoni, or several of them who concluded that they 'Were being frozen out by the whi~ on the governor's staff, and that ~ CRJght to have a big get together so we could all talk about pol1.cy ani nn::les of operations and pertlaps dlan;Je sane of the directions that were developing. I remenb!r having that meeting. I don •t renanber very lllUCh about what took place. I remember George ran it ani-he ran it with a sort of depit.y governor's style-a vert take cbal:ge style, which erded up backfiring on rum because everylxxiy else got upset by that.

Q. It had the public appearance of a retreat; that is to say, a relaxed occasion, settin;J the goals ard style.

A. Yes, the public cq:pearanae was probably a good one. It's real pw:pose, though., I'm sure, had to do with intemal power relationships within the administration.

Q. One last point. You nentioned the concem aver losin:] space in arlcago. What other eleventh hour or last :minute transitional concems were there'? Concerns about midnight appoiiJ.tments that Shapiro might make or shenanigans of any kind'?

A. No. No, I don't think so. 'lhere was an effort to look 'thJ::'o.1gh everythi.rq that was done to see whether t.hin:Js should be umone, if possible. I'm nat aware that there was-there was one big event that oertainl.y got sane press at that time. Right after the election, Governor Shapiro had, oh, perl1aps it was his personnel department, had taken an action. I •ve forgotten just exactly what it consisted of, but it had the effect of locki.rr;J into civil service tenure, t:.bc:Jusanjs, six t:hoUsan:i, ten thousan:i temporaey people who had been servin:] on ~ ~iubrents. Ani this would take effect by operation of law within eJ.thsr ninety or maybe a ln.1n:lred and eighty days. My first assigzmeut when I got to Sprirqfield the day after inauguration was to sperd a oouple of days, maybe less than that, lookirq at the legality, dealin; with the people fran the personnel department, trying to 'I.Inierstan:i what had been da'le and what oould be done about it. I e.n:ied up caup»irq an order that in one sentence ~ the whole thin;J ard led to litigation.

It was effective as a practical matter, but I'm sure it led to litigation. It's been tested out sanewhere, years later, as to whether sanebody really shc:W.d have lost his jab un:ier those circumstancs. By ani leu:ge, it was aacepted by the political people.

Jeremiah Marsh Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 25

All these people wre political people, an:i they sort of were hopin:J they might get away with it but they weren •t smprised when they didn't. I guess it wculd fall in that catagory. I remember we had a series of concession contracts at the J?Cl%'ks that were entered into durin:J--either after the election or durlnl the fall-for lorg-term concession agreements at the parks. I suppose they were political. As I recall, we decided not to tJ::y to un::1o those because they were contracts.

Well, the other 1:hi.rg about the transition is, I suppose, that there's a lot of tilne spent qettin;J ready for the inaugural, which is the major ceremonial event, particularly when there is a charge of administration. QUite a few people spent a lot of time puttirg that together ani making sure that the t:housan::ls of people and political supporters were treated properly am that all went well.

Q. Okay. I think we can stop at that point.

A. Okay.

May 5, 1982, Tape 3, Side 1

Q. Before mcvirg on I'd like to pick up on sane topics that we covered last time. First of all, I urderstand there is sanething you'd like to add to your previous CCIIUuen:ts about your involvement in the tax investigation of Mr. Q;Jilvie. A. Yes. Actually, it wasn't Q;Jilvie. It was one of his campaigns peri:r;ilerally ani a campaign of Mr. scott's in 1964 for governor. I may have left an inoanplete ~ion in saying that many people thought in the Q;Jilvie inner circle that senator Dirksen was or may have been behi.ni that investigation. I think I said or started to say that there was a national program la1J1'1Ched in the last year or two of the Johnson administration, which wculd have been 1967 or 1968, which arose cut of scan:Jals in califomia where they discovered there were iirproper campaign furxtir:g practices in connection, I believe, with an assessor's office out there in the San Francisoo area.

As I unierstan::l it, am I :believe, I'm quite sure this is correct, the IRS [Internal RevenUe 8el:vice] am JUstice Dep!rt:ment in Johnson's last years initiated ilwestigations of several huiDred canpigns all across the counb:y. I don •t kneW that they did it based on any particular inside information that saoebody had done sanething wrong or nat. I think there was a feeling that the canpaign finance pra.ctioes needed to be looked at ani they did it. Ani these led to investigations that had criminal overtales ani plblicity i.Dplications all across the counb:y. I recall :readiig about them years later because they had a lag life. 'Ihey went on into the seventies in sare cases. l!he Wall street Jcmnal described the problem, which ultimately became a political problem for the Nixon administration because anythi.rg they did ather than in:lict looked like they were doirg less prosecuting and had less zeal than Johnson did.

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so, I think it's mislead.in; to sinply single out Senator Dirksen, althc::U;Jh I'm sure sane people thought that might have been the case, or if rot senator Dirksen himself, his principal illinois assistant, who was an ilDporant p:>litical figure in illinois in his own right, Harold Rainville. P.rcbably Rainville m:>re than Dirksen, actually. So, I wanted to l::e sure that was catplete.

Q. Veey good. ~!hen, two questions pertainin;J to yoor earlier work with Senator Ketmedy in wa.shirgtal. one of them has to do with what you leeu:ned fran that experience.

A. 'Well, I've mentioned several t:h:il'qs. One thin;J I think I should 1 add is it gave ll'S a sense of confidence that I couldn t have gotten anywhere else. I was workin;J there in the senate, which was a distinguished place, with government agencies ani senate staffers ani senators. 'Ihings went well. I eamed their respect. I got involved in scane thi.n;Js that actually came to the attention of inQ;x>rtant people other than Senator Kennedy. For exanple, When in 1963 there 'Were a series of railroad mel.'g'erS that were UIX3er consideration at various levels in the federal government, the IC:X: [Interstate carmerce camni.ssion], an:l sane of them were in the courts. '!he IC:X: plus the White Hause didn't have a coordinated position on the subject or a coordinated way of following it. It had a lot of political ramifications. I had gotten quite involved in that subject through one of the senate cx:mnittees worldn;r at hea.rin;rs ani proposals that affected the New ED;Jlarxi railroads, ~ they were in a more advanced state of death or near death. In that context, I got to kn<::M the people on senator Kefauver's staff. He was still alive in the first of that year [1963]. His antitrust subcamnittee was really the only place in the senate ~ there seemed to be very 1\'IJ.Ch interest in that subject, other than the interest of particular senators that they didn •t want to see saDe'thin;J happen that was bad in their state. BUt the only carprehensive view that was bein;J taken would have :been Kefauver plus Senator Magrnlson in the camnerce ccmni.ttee, who was the chairman of the OCI1lllDerOe oamnittee then and was for many years later. So I qot to workirq with people like Jerry Grinstein, who was the chief counsel of the canmerce OCIIIl'Dittee staff, ani with Win TUrner, who was the counsel for Kefauver at railroad meJ:qerS. I ult:ilnately met Bill TUcker, who was then the chairman of the ICC and had been a close associate of Bc:::b Kennedy • s back in Massachusetts politics. Tucker came fran saoewhere in central Massachusetts. He's new the bankruptcy trustee up in Bostal. Ultimately, to my sw:prise, I was told by Tucker and I don 1 t kncJW who else, TUcker I guess, that he had tal.ked the whole si'b.lation aver with Kenny O'Donnell, who was much too busy to pay any systematic attention to the subject other than listen to Tucker occasialally, that they wanted me in a de facto, infOJ:.'DII!ll. way to be part of their eyes and ears on the political and policy ramifications of this 11'm'qer nv::M!lDel'lt. It was all Jdni of a loose ar:r:arqement., based on the good relationships I had had with Tucker ani his staff an:i with these other peq:Ue in the senate, which I was very CCIIIPliment:ed by. Ycu knoW, I certainly had rot done any work in railroad mm:gers at all as a private lawyer. Ani I wasn 1 t really on the right sutx:xmnj ttee staff to do anythirg in a fonnal way, :but I was tzusted by them.

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'lhin;;ls like that. I worked quite effectively with the other senate staffers on various t.b.i.n;s, and when I got to pick up the same kin:1s of assignments in ~ield I felt well equi:pped to do it. I wasn't worried about my capacity to deal with different kin:1s of people and unc1erstard oc:mpl.icat.ed issues and their policy and political ramifications.

Q. When you menti.al this oc:mpl.i:mentary gesture by Kenny O'Donnell you said they, do you mean • • • A. I dal't think I ever met Kenny O'Donnell face to face.

Q. Is that right? Do you mean they, the administration, wanted you to :be ·eyes and ears on this?

A. '!hat's what I was told by TUcker.

Q. I see. A. I think this was Kenny O'Donnell trying to keep tabs on political pzgblams :before they hit. Ani with the railroad :me:rqers the mrl.ons were deeply worried about what 'Wall.d haR;:Ien. ~tful people could see the aban:lanments that waUd l:le cani:ng alon;;r. '!hey were already happen.i:n:J in New Englard. Kenny was a very astute political person who was tryirg to add to his sources of infonoation, and he had a lot of confidence in TUcker l:lec::ause they were old frierxm. 'lbere were limits on what TUcker could do. I mean, to the extent that there were cases pen:Hnq and so on, he couldn •t have ex parts contact with the White House probably. But that happened in the fall as I recall. '!hen the president got shot and not llllCb ever cama of it. But it was an action that was significant tone at the time.

Q. SUperficially it would appear that to -work closely for a Demc:leratic liberal East:em senator and then later for a Republican qovernor waUd have required sane ideological shiftir:g. Do you want to a a•11ent on • • • A. we touched on that :before. It really didn't. Ard I hope that's not a reflection on my lack of ideology, althc.ugh. I guess that's not necessarily a criticism. But the kinds of thi.ngs I did in Kennedy's office and got into, prc::.lgl:ams that he got into ani I got primarily involved in because I was his legislative assistant, were very similar in nature to the kinds of thi.ngs that ~!,!vie got into as a qovernor. we spent in Kennedy's office a lot of on the u:r:ban mass transportation act of 1963, or 1964, whatever it was. But in 1963 that was goin; through the senate and w played a significant role in ~ sane of the labor pz:ovisions :behini the scenes. We spent a lot of time on trade questions, wool iDp::lrts, shoe .inports, the adjustment assist:a:noe pz:ovisions of the trade expansion act which were brand new, and fisheries problems which involved to sane extent inports but also mre questionable practices by foreign fishennen off the coast of New England.

'lhe fi.sh.in; .i:rdustJ::y was, in statistical terms, not an i.Dp)rtant part of the Nw England eoonauy any Dm"e. It was iDportant but not a major

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ma.rkst. art it was symbolically very important ard it was bei.rg faced with RUssian :mther ships ard trawlers that were nat abi.d.in;l by American laws. We got involved in legislation, ard hearin;;Js on that subject which did lead to legislation. AntiJSi.rgly, we, in the summer of 1963, had grourrl out a superficial, I 'iNOI'1 1t say superficial, but it was certainly nat a l1lOl'1Ull'ISl' press release, on scm::a proposal that Senator Fsnnedy was l1.1ald..:rg on a ntursda.y or Friday, ard ever:ybody had qone up to Hyannis for the weekend. '!here was an incident with a Russian trawler off of cape COd. With the weekend media, radio ard television beirg thirsty for news on this subject because it had a lot of drama to it with a confrart:ation with the RUssians, all weekend lorg Senator Kennedy's prcposal played., as the major corrective that was bei.rg proposed, on the radio an::l televisioo.. And of course the president heard this. Ted came back just terribly pleased because he had stolen the whole weekend news an::l the president had to sit there an::l listen to it. Oh, we got involved .in--what the hell's the name of it-the Kennedy a.dminist:ration, or actually this may have been passed in the last days of the E~ administration, had a program that dealt with areas of high mtemployme.nt. Public works programs, business loans, an::l loan guarantees, sate of it is now in the Ec:onanic oevelqmant Administration in the camneroe Deparbnent. We did a lot of that because there were so many New Erqlan::l carpanies that were very hard hit by imports, ard the tedmology revolution was just caning.

The NASA Center in Boston, which helped st:inlllate the RoUte l28 electronics :i.mustJ:y, was approved that year, after ~te a st:ru.gqle which involved Ted's relationships ani Jllj' relationships with senator sten:nis 1 s staff as the chaiJ::ma.n of the armed services oa:amittee or maybe, at that time, it was the E1W%oprations oa:amittee for armed services. He was on both. art he was the man. And we got that center away fran. several other places that were fighting' for it.

'lhere was a ln1ge st:tuggle over the CAB's decision to tem:i.nate Northeast Airline's rights to fly fran Boston to Miami, l4'1ich was a part of the :pc:Mer st:tuggle in the airlines imustry. I spent a lot of ti:rre on that. It was a very i.n'portant jobs issue, ard again symbolic issue for Boston, caning at top of everyt:hinq else, because Northeast was based in Boston. 'Dl.in.:Js like that that were • • •

Q. Well, these were really "bread ard butter'' state issues. A. "Bread an::l butter'' state issues. Ted Kennedy had ~ at ar.d 'WIQ1'l at that. ''He can do liiJ%'e for Ma.ssachusetts" was his campaign slogan. In the years that I 'WOrla!!d with him he avoided. beirq an ideological leader of the left wirq of the Democratic party. Anyt:hing he did that was very high visability, that type of thi.rq, could easily get cxcsswise with what the president was doi.n;J an::l what Attorney General Kennedy was doirg. He stayed out of that stuff. So, there was just no cx:x:asion to be very ideological. And as you will see, ani as you k:nclw, the ld.n:3s of things, many of the ld.n:3s of things that Ogilvie got into were sindJar "nuts ard bolts"--assistanc:le to looal govemment, big transportation proJ:ca:ms, that kird of thi.rg.

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Q. '!hat leads log'ically to a cxmpanion question which is can you reniEIDiler explicitedly borrowing arty prog:ramatic ideas fran Senator Kel'lned.y' s ''bread and. :butter'' concern for Massachusetts an:i applyirq them to Illinois?

A. well, I'm sure I did, not only fraa-I was then pz:cbably m::>re tllan I am tcday, but I'm still a fairly avid reader of political history loosely defined. I was an admirer of the TrUn'an administration, overall, and. of Dean Acheson and. George Marshall an:i the great public servants that -wrked for Truman. I was fairly conversant with the Kermedy programs. To put Iff:i fin;ler on ~t we' 11 get to in the last two years, 1971 ani 1972, the whole system of legislative messages arrl. that sort of thin;r came primaril:y fran the Truman reelection strategy and. fran the Kennedy administration, where in 1962 and 1963 JFK [John Fitzgerald Kennedy] began to do that stuff very agressively. I think I still have the booklet which con:t:ained. his :rressages in that pericxi.

Q. so building a pretty ambitious legislative agenda as a reelection device was an explicit idea drawn fran Truman?

A. Yes. Well, there's a ~t book by, I think it's nwin Ross, called '!he I.oneliest cameal.gn which is the story of the Truman ca:apaigli for reelection m 1948. One of the central themes of that book was Clark Clifford's decision as counsel to the president, arrl. the president's decisicn early in, I think early in 1948, maybe 1947, to come with a whole series of legislative progr:ams. '!he context was diffe:rent because there they we:re d.ealirq with a Republican c::x::n.;r:ess. 'ltley turned down of IOOst of those prcprcsals. '!hey l.ac1ced both the l.D'tificaticn and. political visicn of Truman's forces. 'Ibis led to the issue that it was a "do not:h.in;J'' cr:::n:p:ess. we didn't have a legislative situatia'l where we cculd blame the legislature so easily, because iit lii)St years there clearly wasn •t a controllirq l'lEm:x:l:atic party that ycR.1 cculd say1 '"!hey turned it dclwn. It But yell could with, say, the mayor of OU.cago, which was helpful politically in saae areas.

Q. 'lhat' s inte:testirJ;J. let's turn to a a::suple of transition matters. I'm 'Wt'.'l1d.ering as I :review CIUI' first sessicn whether you can make any cc:mparisan of the Ogilvie transiticn effort and that of his predecessors or successors?

A. Not really very well. I don't know li.I.1Ch about the transiticns that Governor Kerner may have had. I did know cne of his top staffers who l::Jec;me-ma.y)Je he wasn •t at the begirmin;J of 1961 but, ultilllately, Bob Maher was the ~ assistant to the governor. And. I worked with Maher on our transiticn. He stayed cn for Shapiro and the transition . f:ran Kerner to Shapiro. I'm sure I asked. Maher for his advice on anytb.ing he wanted to give, any subject he wanted to give it on.

I r:ea11B1Dber w talked about the pardon and ext:raditicn problem which was an area he hacl 'WOrked a lot in. It helped me :r:eaJ.ize that we had to gat organized and qet sauebody an that subject on the staff who cail.d work full time on it because it has a caseload, if you will, that you can't put off. SCnebody has to know what's in all those papers and take the qovernor t:hl:'algh. them because he doesn't have all

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~to read them. '!hat ccW.d be an inplrtant problem. At the time Ogilvie came into office there were, as I recall, maybe as many as thirty people on death row. So, we were look:i.rg at gettin;J geared up to havin;J to nlake agarl.zin;J decisialS aver death sentences. SUbsequently the SUpJ:eme court of the unitei states knocked out the death penalty, as it had .been iDp"'SErl at that ti:me, on oonstitutional groun:ls. I don't know if those people ever became can:iidates for pardon or clemency.

Beyaxi that, I don •t recall mud:t with the prior people. I read extensively or as extensively as I could about the office of govemor and about the office of the president, as I think I mentioned earlier. SUbsequently, I had very little to do with the walker transition, so I really can't oamnent on that. I was very disawointed in GoVemor Ogilvie's loss. It was terribly close and he lost. I stayed aroun:l until the end ani then ultimately left in early Jai'll.l.8cy of 1973. I didn't have the heart to speni a lot of ti:me on the transition. I didn't feel that I could do it very well with the walker people. I wasn't--there are lots of reasons for that that I don't think I' 11 go into.

In 1976 several of llr:f frien:E were :iJJpxtant factors in the 'Ihanpson transition ani they occasionally asked me for advice about thin;Js. I did not take a lot of llr:f time to be involved because I didn't have it. My ~ion is that they had a pretty thoughtful transition and llr:f defiru:te impression is that Governor 'Ihanpson' s appointments, which are probably the most important prodUct of the transition, are excellent. So, I would rate that a very successful one. I thought his cabinet arrl staff people were able ani excellent people. so, I would qive it high marks, but I actually don't have llU.lCh fi.rsthan:i knowledge of what happened on a day to day basis.

Q. All right. one of the ob\Tiously critical decisialS of the transition was to adopt an activist's strategy arrl :illlage and prcqt:am for the governor. Tell me about that decision ani the reasons behi.rrl it.

A. It follc:Med once you :reoognized that you had a genuine, momnnenta1 fi.saal crisis on your hands, and that quickly became clear. we thought so at the time we did our transition plannirg in the summer and fall. Because John Dalley had been, up until early July, I think, maybe it was June, the tq> aide on senator Arrin;Jton' s staff and had access to all the fiscal infonnation that the senate had. After the election and as we got into the details of the qovernment, it became clear that you had a major fiscal crisis ani you were goin;J to have to do sanethirg major, probably in the fonn on incx::ane tax which would be terribly damagin;J p:>litically. It would be l.U'lpOpllar.

'!hat an:ried with it the pretty clear necessity that we were goin;J to have to-when we hit people with what ultiJDately proved to be a two and a half percent income tax-we were goin;J to have to shC7tl them that we knew what we were doin;J, arrl that we were doil'g good t.h.in:Js and tJ:yin;J to do good thin;Js, and doin;J sanethirg with their m:mey. 'lhe sta'b.ls of aid to education, the situation in the mental hospitals, the situation in the prisons, many of the inprovements that were called

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for needed to be financed. I mean, the primary need was money. Ani there are lots of ather areas. As a result, to get those thin;;rs done you •ve got to be a st:rong governor am tJ:y to be a good goven10r. we reached that conclusion :really fairly early, am it was carried out in detail t:llroUgh all four years of GaY'e:rnor Oqilvie 1 s administration.

Q. Did you have a model in mini, gubernatorial model in mird in any other state for that activist strategy? Possibly Nelson Rockefeller?

A. Not :really. I think Governor ogilvie came to like Nelson Rockefeller very lliiJCh, as they worked with each ather on the National Governor's conferen::e. B.It in Illinois politics ani the ima.gecy of Illinois politics, Republican politics, Rockefeller had created image problems for h:iJnsel.f, even thoUgh he :really was a very p::lpllar person.

I didn 1 t think myself that New York was a very ccraparable state in the political sense. It nay be in the sense that it's a big urban state with aqirq in::iusb:y. 'lhere are many 1:hin3B that are ccraparable. BUt in New York Rockefeller had been an in::umbent governor for eight or ten years. He beat Averell Harrilnan in 1958, I think. He had all the additional assets of a Rockefeller. He'd been a serious presidential can:iidate twice. He didn •t have an opposition, which was the najor political difference. In Chicago ani Illinois you're always looking at a S'trorg, capable ati.cago Dem::leratic organization. Ani in the person of Mayor Daley a great mayor ani a great political leader with more unity than any ather party. Intemally even un:1er Daley, the Democrats had their differences ani their divisions, but they had a lot of unity for a political party, ani they aould get it to;Jether at election time ani in the legislature. Whereas, in New York, the DenK:x:ratic party was all aver the lot ani very factionalized. I just never felt that the New York experience was that useful to us. we did go down to Gatl:inbuzg, Tennessee in November right after the election. one of the national organizations for, it might have been the National Governors' a:nference or an organization of that type, p..tt out a seminar for :new governors. GoYemor Ogilvie want down ani several of the rest of us. .Amol¥;1 the people that spoke was Governor Rockefeller's executive secretary. I believe his name was Alton Marshall. He later became the head of Rockefeller center. I don •t even zaoemi;)er What the subjects were. It was the kinds of advice you give to new governors. 'lhe sense that we came away with was that, well, Marshall was an :iJlpressive fellow ard maybe we can do it too. You also saw various governors perfonn at the Governors 1 conference, ani there Rockefeller used the Governors 1 conference very effectively for his national political pw:poses. You couldn't help but see how effectively he did that. we learned sane 1:hin3B about political p.lblic relations or propagan:m, if you will.

Q. H'cltl did you employ this take charge strategy in plaJ'U'lirq the first hUn:h:'ed days or was there a real plan for the first hUn:h:'ed days of the administration?

A. I don •t think I'd call it that. we tried for a st:rong start. we started after the election with a group that ild.uded people like Bill Hanley ani Rich Mathias ani I'm sure D!iley, John Dilley, ani several

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others, to begin to do leqislative bill ~tion. McCarter's people got off to a very fast start. He qw.ckly recruited a really talented group of people in the budget bureau. 'Ihere was really no bJdqet bureau before them.

'lbe old Department of Finance had a very small staff of respected people. Ted I.eth was the head of the department, under J.iln Ronan, who was the DenLx::Latic National camnitteeman for the De.nWX'!ratic party and was a lorg tilne political figure in Chicago and Director of Finance for eight years under Kerner. '!hey bath resignei when Governor Shapiro went out of office, so McCarter J?Ut together a small nucleus of What became a budget bureau by executive o:rder and then by statute. But that was only McCarter, Ranney, John cotton, I think, Bob Manjeville, who • s now the budget director, Paul KL1rz, steve Phillips. 'Ihere are a few IOOre. we didn •t really try to have a humred days apart from the effort to have a strorg recognition, if 'IN8 could, that the fiscal ooniitions were really bad. Beyon:i that, the Iegislature would strin;J ~ out. You get ready for the budget message, whidl in those days was due April 1, not March l-and had usually been filed late, which, I must say, politically is the right way to do it. (laughter) It compresses the agony d.c:Mn to six 'Weeks rather than four m:>nths like it is 1'lOW. We were work:in;J and won:yin;J aboUt the results of the leland Crtmni ssion 1 s reccmnen:mtions on revenue legislation, which I think VJe talked aboUt before. And an awful lot of preoccupation with staffing.

Q. I..et IS 'bJrn to that if we can. UMer GoveJ:nor OgilVie the governor's staff became, I believe it was called, the executive office arr:i it consisted of several c:xmp:ments. 'Ihere was a whole new arrargement for staffin;J the governorship.

A. I don 1 t think those titles happened right away but I could be wrong about that. I just don't remember that they did. I would guess p:etty surely that that came a year or two later. But de facto What you said is correct.

Q. Okay. What was your role in oonceptualizin;J the duties an:i the structure of the governor 1 s staff? A. well, I was an inportant advisor in the p:ooess. I oovered some of this in the transition plan discussions we had before. I was SCI'DSWhat involved in recnti.tin;J sane of them. It wasn't really cn:ganized as a terribly fonnal oJ:ganization. 'Ib sane degree it shook d.c:Mn naturally. Illp>rtant people on the staff like Brian Whalen came frau Ogilvie's Cbok county office, an:i there he [Ogilvie] had tried to be an activist as we diSOJSsed previously. He had embarked on a Hocwer o:mnission to reevaluate Cbok county qovernment. so this was oanfortable for him. I, fairly early on, came to the oc:n:lusion that the budget blreau shalld be treated as part of our staff rather than allow a them or us, them versus us, situatim to develop. '!hat was an :i.n'portant contribution because it was ver.y successful, because of their talent, because of the kin:i of perscm McCarter was. Everyone sort of picked that up. 'lbe roles of the staff clarified over the

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years. several nw:n:e key people became involved, more involved as ti.IOO went on.

Q. was there a hierarchy to the staff?

A. Ultimately there was sanewhat of a hierardly bit it wasn't, again, a very for.mally iD'{XSEd one. Brian ran the Spr:il'gfield office, Whalen. Initially, Drlley was in chaJ:qe of progzans ani legislative relations. He gradually withdrew fran as much day to day involvement in the legislative program, because others began to do more ani he just didn't have enc:ugh hours in the day to do everythi.rg. Brian, Dailey ani myself were probably the three top staff people at the beqirn'lir¥J, ani Tan Drennan, who was not fonnally part of the staff but worked with us all the time ani became just an increasirgly nw:n:e respected advisor.

Q. Did he work in Spr:il'gfield at all?

A. Often, yes. He was often in Spr:il'gfield for two, three days at a stretch.

Q. Describe your duties.

A. Well my title all the way thrcugh was special oc:w.msel, which started out bein;J m:>re legally oriented than it ended up after a few m:mths. I expected to be the governor's legal advisor ani I did continue to be. I was a trouble shooter. I had, at the beqirnlir¥J, what -we called a liaison responsibility for deal~ with ten or fifteen of the regulatory agencies. I had taught administrative law for six or eight years at Jalm Marshall Iaw School in the night division ani had a good backgroun:i in regulatory legal problems ani SCI'I'Ie interest. so I had responsibility for dealirgs with agencies like the ccmnerce Comnission, the Department of Insurance, the Department of Financial Institutions, which regulates loan catpanies and currency~ and the like, the Savixgs ani loan camnission, the Bankin;J Commiss~oner. Oh, there were others too-'Ihe Builcil.nq Authority. At that time, I believe, the Illinois Housirg Develop:nent Authority existed ani had been operational. Several more were added durirg the Ogilvie years.

Q. Did that :mean that you had relationships with them? With the agencies?

A. Yes. I wt'W.d have resp:>nSibllity for carryin;J out orders or requests fran the goveJ:nJr, for knc:Jwin;J what was goin;J on, for inplementin;J policies, ani for reviewi.r:g their legislative progzam.

Initially, I tried to have a fairly organized ani OJ:derly control over the technical advisors, which was the name they used at that ti.IOO for the lawyers on the staffs of these agencies. one of the subjects of the Allerton conference that you asked me about last time, which I rn~ recall was of iDportanoe to me at the time, was to try to get a harxUe on OCI11l11lll'1ications with tedmical advisors. sanetimes they WOlld request attorney qeneral' s opinialS on ~ that wt'W.d be embarrassin;J ani -we felt that -we probably oculd help. 'Ihe answers

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would be embarrassin:J because they would be negative. we felt that we could probably help minimize friction with the AG's office ani get better results in our dealin:Js with them, which inclu::led not only opinions, of course, but the han:il.in:J of litigation, if I could be involved when necessary. I knew the top people in Attorney General scott's office. originally, Frank McGarr, who is now Chief Judge of the united states District court, was his chief assistant. GoVernor 'l.bcmpson was the head of his criminal division at that tilDe. Joel Flaum, who is a united states District Judge, suooeeded McGarr after a year or so as the first assistant. 'lhanpson had gone on to the u.s. Attorney's office as Judge Bauer's first assistant. I knew those people ani several others who have been inportant people in the AG' s office over the years. I trie:l to keep my harrl in there.

As I got busier and busier that became less an:i less possible ani we quit teyirq to maintain a fairly tight control over technical advisors.

Q. was there sane oonoem that their seek:in:J opinions fran another RepUblican constitutional office could be dan;Jerous?

A. Yes, you could get bad answers. It's hard to articulate this very well, but anyDody who has dealt with his lawyer on sensitive matters will recognize that there's a relationship of confidentiality ani solici'b.lde for the client's interest, which in this context is the need of the governor. It is much harder for an elective attorney general to just say it's that s:iJDple, he's the qovm:nor's lawyer, that's all there is to it. It just doesn't work that way. He has an elective office to discharge, he has a canpaign for reelection to worry about, ani there naturally develop sane turf battles. He has his own political base that he doesn't want to be subservient to the governor. It shouldn't have to be, given an elective attorney general. so, those relationships satetimes are difficult an:i delicate.

Tape 3, Side 2

A. To finish up just briefly on my own duties. well, originally at the very beqinnin;J I was also involved with parole ani extradition. I occasionally got consulted on that over the years but after a while it was sp.m off to other people. Ultimately, Dave sturgis for about three years did JOOSt of it. I got substantially involved in legislative relationships in the strategic sense, and in design of the pLOCJ.tams, an:i in sane cases drafting of the bills. OVer the years I became nora involved there. I was in chal:ge of our federal relations, which at the very beqinnin;J didn't mean very much because we were so preoocupie:l with the first six 11¥JJ1ths in Springfield that we just didn't have tilDe to be wonyin;J about federal legislation.

As the years went on, the ftmctions chan;Jed sanewhat ani the tilDe I spent on them. I began to do much nora in the area of press ani shapilq plblic opinion. At sane point I probably should exparxi on that but it came nora in later years. I began to spem. DJre and mre

Jeremiah Marsh Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield 35

tilDe as a trouble shooter. I worked intimately in the budget process with the people in the budget b.lreau and the governor. i In fact, for exanple an the regulatory agencies, in several of those ' ' years where they had differences between the agencies and the bureau as to what their ultimate budget :reoc:amnermtions should be, there were a CXJUpl.e of years where the govemor just didn't have the time because there were too many t:h.in3s happenin;J in those two or three days when you have to resolve these t:h.in3s, and I en::led up beinq the umpire of the agency budgets. Which, I might say, is a good way to get their attention. (laughter) I gat a lot mre respect, I suspect, as the liaison after that. But I had, I think, ve:ry good relations with the agency people. I liked m:JSt of them and wasn't a ve:ry barDs-on governor 1 s staffer. I was bJsy and when I felt they were doinq a good job I didn't waste a lot of their tilDe, other than an t.hin:Js that needed to be attended. to. After about a year we began to develop a mre fonnal progrmn devel~tent operation, Which consisted of a camnittee that met periodically and then tasks for Wividual or smaller groups an substantive areas.

Q. was this the Policy Develq:ment Group?

A. '!hat's right. I was the chairman of that. I dreamed it up, I guess. Because we needed a way to have a show and tell once in a Wile. we had all these talented, hard drivin;J, st:rorq min:led in:iividuals who were off and runrrl.n;r. 'lhat was an il1portant part of its initial pw:pose. It became a useful vehicle.

Q. Did the governor sit in m these meetin;Js?

A. Saoetimes. Usually not. He wtW.d sit in an smaller meetings with people who were workirg an this or that substantive progzam. You would go in ani see the governor and tell him what F- were driving at, and get his approval or ~ or redirect1an, and then go back ani refine t:hi.rqs and bring back the final pzograms. Often these were legislative prograns. Sanetimes they were administrative. And on saue of those he wtW.d sit in. He spent a lot of time with directors, an:i dealinq with administrative problems and progzams that you ca.lld do within the existinq authority of law and with the budget you have and the people you have.

For exanple after the inccme tax was passed he met weekly with the revenue ~ and the consultants and me and the budget b:treau people an lJIIPlementation, because it was a horse race to get that t:ll:iniJ in gear, geared up in time to collect it. And to collect it in a way that didn't becxtne bureaucratic and offensive, any mre offensive than necessary. As a result of his personal involvenent, the sinplicity and relative painlessness of the Illinois incane tax, really which is reflected in the law, persisted right an into its administration.

Q. Who~ the Policy Developoout Group?

Jeremiah Marsh Memoir -- Archives/Special Collections, University of Illinois at Springfield