National Life Stories an Oral History of British Science
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NATIONAL LIFE STORIES AN ORAL HISTORY OF BRITISH SCIENCE Professor Sir Peter Hirsch Interviewed by Dr Thomas Lean C1379/84 IMPORTANT Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. Please note that this transcript has been edited in accordance with the interviewee’s wishes to improve its technical accuracy. Additions have been included [in square brackets] and redundant words have been retained in the transcript but struckthrough. Should you find any errors please inform the Oral History curators. Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB 020 7412 7404 [email protected] British Library Sound Archive National Life Stories Interview Summary Sheet Title Page Ref no: C1379/84 Collection title: An Oral History of British Science Interviewee’s surname: Hirsch Title: Prof Sir Interviewee’s Peter Sex: Male forename: Occupation: Materials scientist Date and place of birth: Berlin, Germany, 16 January 1925 . Mother’s occupation: Father’s occupation: Textile trader Dates of recording, Compact flash cards used, tracks (from – to): 1-2, 16 Aug 2012; 3-4, 4 Oct 2012; 5-6, 18 Oct 2012; 7, 25 Oct 2012; 8, 29 Nov 2012; 9-10, 31 January 2013. Location of interview: Interviewee's office, Oxford. Name of interviewer: Thomas Lean Type of recorder: Marantz PMD661 on secure digital Recording format : WAV 24 bit 48 kHz Total no. of tracks 10 Mono or stereo Stereo Total Duration: 09:39:50 (HH:MM:SS) Additional material: Copyright/Clearance: Copyright to BL, interview open except for Track 6 13:02-13:29 which is closed indefinitely. Interviewer’s Please note that this transcript has been edited in accordance with the comments: interviewee’s wishes to improve its technical accuracy. Additions have been included [in square brackets] and redundant words have been retained in the transcript. In some parts of this recording the interviewee was reading from a written memoir. Peter Hirsch Page 4 C1379/84 Track 1 [Track 1] I was wondering if you would mind briefly introducing yourself Sir Peter? Well, I was born in 1925, 16th of January 1925, in Berlin. My parents were, my father was in the textile trade, he had a sort of textile business, and my mother effectively looked after my brother and myself. I had a brother who was four and a half years older than I was. We lived in interesting times, and, one of the things that perhaps I should say is that, like, we were Jewish, and, my father had actually fought in the First World War on the German side, and was wounded in Verdun, was awarded the Iron Cross. And, but that didn’t make any difference of course. My mother was born in a place called Grutschno, which is now in Poland, and I think was probably part of Germany at the time. She was born on the 6th of February 1892. My father was considerably older than she was, and he was born on the 1st of April 1879, somewhere in Poland, and I don’t know where, which however I believe was also part of Germany at the time. He has a very interesting first name, namely Ismar, i-s-m-a-r. Well, that may have biblical connotations, but I always, I was always told that [laughs], since his birthday was on the 1st of April, that was also Bismarck’s birthday, and what they did was remove the b and the k at the end. I don’t know if that story is true or not, but anyway, I think it indicates the fact that they considered themselves as Germans. [02:46] Now there’s another complication, and that is, my father and mother were actually divorced in 1934, and my mother married Herbert Meyersohn, who was a dental surgeon in Berlin, and he married her very shortly afterwards. I think that was the condition that my, her father had insisted on, that he should marry her immediately after the divorce. And, it’s a long story, because she had actually known Herbert from a long time ago, when, from, from when they came in touch with each other in a place called Bromberg, which is now Bydgoszcz in Poland, and Bromberg was then part of Germany. And, he had moved, he was a dental surgeon, he had moved to Berlin and met my mother again, and he, he tended to spend quite a bit of time in our household, and as a small child I just took that as being sort of normal, but in retrospect it, I think it was very much a ménage à trois. Anyway, my mother and father divorced in 1934, and then my father moved out. We were living in Berlin all the time. My father Peter Hirsch Page 5 C1379/84 Track 1 moved out, but not too far away from where we were living, and my brother and I had good access to him. [05:00] Now, what happened was that, on the whole I had a fairly happy childhood, in the early years anyway, and my parents had bought a little cottage in a place called Ferch am Schwielowsee, which is outside Berlin, and that was a very nice place to be at. [04:38] And, then my father died in 1936 when I was eleven years old, and the latter part of my childhood was then much influenced by the Nazi persecution of the Jews. My parents were Jewish but not Orthodox, and I did have some religious instruction from the local synagogue leading to my bar mitzvah in 1938. And, after leaving the local primary school I went to a, what was called a Reform-Realgymnasium in Berlin Schöneberg, the school was called the Treitschke Schule. And it had a good reputation. But in 1938 I was forced to leave and joined a school for Jewish children, Goldschmidt Schule in Berlin-Dahlem. The situation then got increasingly worse, and, before he died my father was forced to leave his business, which was taken over by a non-Jewish deputy, and anti-Semitic propaganda was rampant, and I remember copies of the anti-Semitic paper Der Stürmer were pinned up on special billboards in prominent places, and there was one close to where we were living at the time, on the Bayerische Platz. My parents, we moved from the Meraner Strasse near the Bayerische Platz to an apartment in the Klopstockstrasse, near the Tiergarten, which was closer to where my stepfather actually practised, which was in the Moabit district. Interaction with non-Jews became impossible, and my stepfather was not allowed to treat non-Jews. The cottage in Ferch had to be given up, and it was for sale at a derisory knock-down price. [08:13] Then, my mother decided it was time to emigrate, and she was really the dominant person in this decision, and she took the decisive lead. And the way she organised this, this was in 1938 now, she had a friend... Stop a minute. [pause in recording] [08:45] Peter Hirsch Page 6 C1379/84 Track 1 Through a friend , an ophthalmologist called Dr Lytton, who had emigrated to England previously and who had lived in Ealing, she found out about a scheme which was operated by His Master’s Voice, which became later EMI, and, the director of this scheme was a man called Shoenberg, who turned out, was the father of Professor David Shoenberg, FRS, at the Cavendish Laboratory, who taught me actually as an undergraduate. And under this scheme, HMV gave employment to students, young students like my brother, who wanted to study physics or engineering. And that scheme enabled them, if you were accepted for the scheme, you were given a visa. And that’s how my brother, who was eighteen at the time, in 1938, came over. He had already enrolled to study electrical engineering at the Technical High School in Berlin, Berlin Charlottenburg, but he was accepted on this HMV scheme and emigrated to England in the summer of 1938. Then, in the autumn, my mother got her friend to, Dr Lytton, to send a telegram to her, to say that my brother was dangerously ill and she should come and visit immediately. And armed with that, she went to the British Embassy and got a visa, a visitor’s visa, for a week. And, so she came over on this in October. Now in retrospect, I suspect that she may well have been helped by George Foley, an MI6 officer, who was at the British Embassy at the time and who is now known to have helped many Jews to escape from Nazi Germany. That’s a, just a suggestion, I have no proof of that whatsoever. But the timing is, is right for this. Because, there were enormous queues at the time at the British Embassy for people to try and get visas. Anyway, my mother left for London in October ’38, and there was a Jewish refugee organisation which was based at Woburn House in London, and that kept a list of job openings for refugees. And the rules at the time were, that if you found employment, or had a guarantor for your livelihood in this country, you could remain in the country after the expiry of the visa. And my mother found a post as a domestic servant with a family in Chelsea who took her in and gave her a small room, and she had a terrifically hard life, but she was safe.