Suspension ofStanding Orders. (21 Nov., 1!.!22.] Community Settlements. 3857
.- Question-That the bill be now read a COMMUNITY SETTLEMENTS AND third time--put. The House divided: RURAL CREDIT BILL. The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS Ayes, 25; no€€, 11; majority, 14. moved: . AYES. That·leave be given to bring in a bill to make Braddon, Sir Henry O'Conor, B. B. provision for community settlements and rural Brook!\, \V. Onslow, Colonel credit; to authorise the establishment of rura.l Oarruthers,SirJoseph Peden, J. B. Cox, Sir Owen Sinclair, A. co·operati ve associations ; and for purposes con· Dick, W. T. Storey, D. nected therewith. Dodd, J. M. Taylor, Sir Allen He said: I intend to take the course of . Farrar, E. H. Travers. J. Horne, H. E. Varley, G. H. G. speaking on this motion in order to Hughes, Sir Thomas Waddell, T. explain the provisions of the bill which Hunt, A. E. \Vise, J. H. will not be gone on with during this Hurley, W. F. Tellers, session of Parliament. The measure will Innes-Noad, S. R. Earp, G. F. be printed and cit·culated, public discus Lane-Mullins, J. Robson, \V. E. V. sion will be invited on its provisions, and NoEs. in the recess all parties interested will be Cruickshank, R. W. Mahony. R. invited to confer with Ministers in order Estell, J. Storey, T. Grayndler, E. SuttDr, J. Bligh that the terms of the bill may be more Hepher, J. Tellers, fully considered, amendments suggested, Hordern, P. G. Bryant, F. H. and propaganda work undertaken, so Kavanagh, E. J. Coates, ,J·. F. that people will understand what the Question so resolved in the affirmative. legislation aims at, and the way the pur Bill read a third time. poses of the legislation are to be achieved. House adjourned at 6.32 p.m. Thereby a considerable amount of good will be done. The Select Committee on Agriculture of this Chamber reported at considerable length on this aspect of rural life, especially in regard to the con ll.tgislatibt Qtountil. ditions and prospects of the agricultural industry and the subject of rural credit TtUesday, 21 November, 1922. and finance, and strongly recommends that the basis of rural finance, which Suspem;;ion of Standing Orders-Community Settlemrnts holds good in the younger countries of and Rural Credit Bill-Friendly Societies (Amen_d· the world, in Canada and the United ment) Biii-Undercliffe to Forest Hill Tramway States, which has been tried for years B'iii-Liquor (Amendment) Bill-Empire Migration under the system in France, in Germany, Birds and Animals Protection (Amendment) Bill (No. 2)-Botany·road Trust Constitution Biii-Do.vid and in other countries of Europe and Morris Revesting Bill-Sydney Corporation (Fish largely applied to Ireland and England, Markets) Bill-Business of the Session-Voluntary should be adopted here. That basis lies Workers (Soldiers' Holdings) Amendment Bill Special Adjournment-Adjournment (Close of the in the establishment of local credit asso Session)-Sydney Water Supply. ciations. That is the best basis possible. In this country on account of the class of settlement we have, the lands The PRESIDENT took the chair. being held by the Crown in the first instance and then gradually alienated SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS. with only a sparse population, it stand10 Motion (by the Ron. Sir JOSEPH to reason that what is known as CARRUTHERS) agreed to : community life in its best sense is not known here. After a long space of years That so much of the standing orders be sus· .pended as would preclude the passing of the and waiting the settlers go out, take up undermentioned bills through all their stages Crown lands, and do the pioneering work. during one sitting of the Council, namely : They face all the hardships of that, and Friendly Societies (Amendment) Bill, Birds and then comes a time when, having .cleared Animals Protection (Amendment) Bill (No.2), Botany Road Trust Constitution Bill, Liquor their land and started to produce crops, (Amendment) Bill, Undercliffe to Forest Hill they have their difficulties of marketing. Tramway Bill. David Morris Revesting Bill. They also have their difficulties of modern 8858 Community Settlements {COUNCIL.] and Rural Credit Bill.
methods which must be adopted, and which because those countries have been estab require modern plants Hot merely for pro lished for hundreds of years. It is the· ·ducing t.lw crop but also for its marketing. .system which has b~en also applied to 'That means money. Unfortunately the countries wr..>Jse eircu•mstances are very majority of settlers are struggling men similar to our own, the British colonies without too much means. They have a and dominions in Canada and the United hatd enough job in the first place to clear States. But lately we have had an ad their lands, and they generally get the vance on this system in India, which des wherewithal to live upon by taking a job pite the fact that it has not got respon· ·with someone else. Unless in a new sible government and representative insti country some system can be devised, tutions as we have has, thank God, been especially with regard to agriculturists, governed by fine British statesmen and to help a lame dog over a stile, there is fine British public officers. They have many a lame dog that will never get·over .the power to pass their acts of legislation the stile. dealing with internal problems such as One way of getting over it is by this, and probably the finest of all the the system of State aid. No worse sys acts dealing with rural finance is that tem could be a:lopted than unregulated now in operation in the Presidency of .State aid, or even regulatAd State aid, Madras. From the up-to-date legislation whi::h means too frequently that men are in the Presidency of Madras many of the induced to look for the aid as a sort of provisions of this bill have been drawn. political favour for which they give some ~l'here is one feature of the bill itself thing in return-peJ·haps it is support to which will b~·found perhaps not to have a Government or a vote for a member. its replica or model in any other country Associated with the primary need of of the world -it is a feature to which the settler, the wherewithal, you have I will ·refer later 011-anrl that is com introduced a system which approaches munity settlement association. In the very close to corruption. :More frequently report of the agricultural committee, it resolves itself into a system of parts of which I will refer to, is shown -coddling. Because the State is finding the what has been done in some phases in money it is regarded as a good milch other places. In Canada, the Canadian -cow, and the individ.ual does not recog co-operative laws in their preamble recite nise his responsibility as a member of the that they have been passed "as a means community, first of all to himself, then of improving rural life conditions, and of to his neighbour, and to the State. overcoming the economic difficulties con It is no use to gird at and attack the nected w-ith large farms and a scattered :system of helping these men through population." That could very well be .the State, and s:~.y it is mollycoddling, adopted bere as a fine preamble if we were and must end. I admit it ought to end, a.ccustomed· to have a preamble in our and I have never been in favour of it. bills. These 11re .the kinds of rural credit It is no use simply to gird at that system or co-operative assooiations which have and then to stop silent and do nothing come into existenee under those laws in to he~p out the natural process which Cann,da-farmers' in~titutes, co-operative should be adopted. That natural process elevator companies, agricultural co-overa is to devise some way whereby the poor tive association~, grain-growers' associa individual credit of one man, the farmer, tions, fruit-growers' associations, cool may be created into something that is storage and forwarding associations, fer :strong; as a credit by association with tiliser associations, egg and poultry associa his fellows. That is to say, you must take tions, -and similar societies designed for .a number of units to mult~ly their credi-t, simplifying their formation, for systema .and by acting the brother, one to the tising their work, and for efficient and -other, help to carry each otheT's burdens, economical operations Qn a truly co :and so enable the. burden of each one to. be opera.tive basis, with limited liability. m.ore easily carried, That is the under The first society fo.rmed under this law lying basis of .the system of rural iinance .was esta•blished in lfanitoba in .Tune. in the old countries. of the world. iLt 1917. By June, 1919-, the number of ~pplies to them with less·force tha.n torrs, rural credit. societies in 1lbnitoba had [The H on. Sir Joseph Carruthers. Community Settlen~ents [21 NDv., 1!122.] and Rural Credit Bill. 3859 increased to forty-four. I tried to get in. order to sell in a high market. He the figures up to date, but found that must pay cash in order to buy cheap. If he wishes to keep his children ·on the farm, our library has nqt had a single book sup he must make his home attractive. All plied since 1919. That is to say, the this costs money. He must have ready books which ought to be here, those from cash. 1919 to 1922, dealing with agricultural Does not that put the whole case for the problems are not in our library. It is a farmer and his needs in a nutshell~ reflection on our library that books deal Then further we see the methods where ing with subjects of vital importance .to by step. by step the plan is worked out. Australia are not up to date. These It comes down to the basis of the whole Rural Credit !Societies of Canada deal scheme-loan associations. In order to very largely with short-time credits. secure intimate touch with the bor Farmers pay 7 per cent. on their own rowers, it is provided that the loan bank notes endorsed by the society for the ;;hall make loans to farmers through local actual time the money is used. One per associations of borrowers, called National cent. of such· interest is rebated by the Farm Loan Associations. Those associ bank with whom they deal-that is the ·ations do not eonduct ordinary 'banking Land Bank-to the society to enable it business. Their operations are very to pay for its secretary and its work. simple. They admit members who desire That is a principle which it will be op to borrow. Their directors and loan com tional for the societies or bank with which mittees "pass" on the value of the se they deal to bring into operation here. curity and the· character of the bor If bon. members refer to the report, rower. They use the word "pass"-a they will see that one of these societies, word we do not use in the same sense; that is the society at Arden, passed a that is to say they make inquiry into the resolution in which it expressed the satis value of the security and the character faction which is being felt by the farmers, of the borrower. Every borrower takes for in one season preceding June, 1918, stock in the Farm Loan Association to the society granted $17,700 of credits to the amount of 5 per cent. of the face its famer members. I shall make only value of his loans. This amount is sub
one or two districts I have visited, and not denote whether a man is the right or I have been astonished at the response the wrong class of settler. Industry with which it was met. It was not merely denotes everything, and under this system a lip service response, but I have ha-1 these men will be able to help the indus men come to me and say, ",When can trious man to get a block on easy terms I put £10,000 into this?" I have met and to assist him along, while they will others who are able to stand a far bigger discourag-e men whom they know neither strain, wanting to know when they can to be industrious nor thrifty. come in and put in their money to the I have taken this unusual course at extent of thousands of pounds. They the desire of my colleagues in order to are very anxious that Parliament should launch this bill, and to allow the period provide for schemes of this character. of recess to be used for its discussion. It will enable them, not to go in for I believe it will be a great instrument boodling or land speculaticn, but it will in assisting bona fide settlement in thl!! help them to accomplish two purposes-to State by allowing people to do something meet in a just way the desires of the land for themselves. The country which shows owners themselves to reduce the areas the greatest example of successful closer which they hold, getting reasonable pay settlement is the Netherlands. Ron. ment therefor, and the desire of the members who have travelled through people in those districts to have some parts of the Netherlands as I have will form of settlement of which .they can see on the tram-cars and elsewhere a little have a share of the oversight. legend printed in words that are almost During my period of administration English. It says, "Help u zelf." That as Secretary for Lands, for over five is the legend which underlies their years, I foresaw that a great deal of land system of closer settlement, co-operative settlement was going to be a failure. associations, and rural credit. It is We cut up land for settlement leases simply help yourself. The bill enables and for selections in various parts of farmers in the community to help them the country, and it seemed such a good selves, to achieve the great purpose of gamble that men raised the deposit by strengtheni11g community life, to finance any means, put in their period of resi themselves over difficulties, to encourage dence, and they knew that, with the rise of more production, and to facilitate pro- . land values, they would be able to sell out gress in various parts of the State. in a few years at a very considerable The Hon. R. W. CRGICKSHANK: I advance not by reason of what they pro do not know what spirit has actuated duced on the land, but by gambling on the leader of the Government in deliver the increase of population in the country ing the propaganda speech which he has and the greater demand for land. Here made this' evening in regard to rural in these community-settlements they will industries, unless it was to serve a pur have some oversight over that. If some pose very useful to the Federal election beer-chewer wants to go there and get a about to take place. The Government is block of land, the deposit being only £5, much concerned about getting a majority they can say, "That man is not going to at that election, and I see that it has make a good settler." They will have the reporting staff carefully arranged in some scrutiny themselves over the process order that no point in the hon. member's of settlement in the district. As far as speech may be missed. human reasonable precautions can be The Hon. Sir J OSEPII CARRUTHERS: taken, they will see that the right It was done by special request for the class of settler is encouraged, and that purpose of better hearing! the wrong class of settler is discouraged. The Ron. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: I I do not say that the poor man is the accept that. It ·seems to me that six wrong class of settler. We have many months is a very long t!me to ask a body instances in this State that he is not. of intelligent men to consider the advis The greatest farmer in Australia is a man ableness of bringing in a bill which they who worked in my own native town when have not even seen. 'Ve have heard the I was a boy, at lOs. a week, for a lady Minister's explanation of the bill. We whom I 'knew very well. Poverty does know nothing about the contents of the [The H on. Sir Joseph Carruthers. CommunitySettlements [21 Nov., lU22.) and Rw·al Credit Bill. 3865 bill itself; yet we are asked to consider which will enable the best t;ype of rural for six months the advisability of intro· workers to earn enough money to acquire ducing • a measure which almost every farms of their own. man in the community recognises should, The Hon~ J. H. WISE: Is this speech if the spirit of the bill is as has been made for the Federal elections? explained by the Minister, meet with the The Hon. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: entire approval of the community. This speech is made for propaganda pur The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS : poses the ·same as that of the Minister. I Will the bon. member permit me to ex do not see why the J\1:inister should be plain? I only ask him to consider that allowed to speak for an hour or an hour for a few minutes. The bill will then be and a half for pra;paganda purposes with introduced! out somebody else in this House speaking The Hon. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: for the same purpose. The bon. member has spoken on the bill Apart from propaganda, it is a mistake for at least an hour and has given reasons for the Government to rely entirely on for introducing the measure, to which immigration. 'Vhat encouragement has the Iiouse, I think, will show IW hos the Government given local workers to tility. There was no occasion for such settle on the land? The bill, according to elaborate argument in introducing a bill the J\1:inister, is going to provide some as to assist the rural industries. Consider sistance to men already on the land, or to ing that there are six measures remaining t!o-opcrative bodies that may be formed on the business-paper to be dealt with, by those who are settled on the land. the Minister might well leave it to the How can you expect any man with a wife intelligence of bon. members to decide and family working on less than the basi~ whether they will approve of a bill when wage, acquainted with the soil and with they see its contents, without making a our conditions, who has travelled the speech of the duration of an hour or an country with a swag, and who desires to hour and a half for purely propaganda settle 1on the land, to acquire a farm? purposes. The Hon. J. H. WISE: This will assist The lion. Sir J 01>l'PH CARRUTHERS: him! There must be something wrong with the The Hon. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: hon. member. It is only twenty-five If he has nothing? minutes past 5 now! The Hon. J. H. WISE: Yes! The Hon. R. W. CRUICKSHA};1{: The Hon. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: It seems to me to be ·strangely anomalous Will it? I have not seen the hill yet. I that the Government which is ·so anxious wish to see a clause in the measure which to promote rural settlement has just dis will assist a man if he has nothing. posed of a bill which is going to cripple The Hon. J. H. WisE: There will be rural settlement. It has eliminated rural co-operative companie3! workers from the operation of the Arbi The Hou. R IV. CRUICKSHANK: tration Court. It is going to allow them AU co-operative settlements I have known to receive any wages that they may be have been failures. \~7 hat strikes me as able to secure themselves from employers remarkable is the eloquence of the Vice engaged in rural industries. How does President, on the verge of the Federal the hon. member expect that a vast election, in dealing with rural industries. body of Australian workers engaged in Contrast that with the treatment of the rural industries are going to save enough industrial workers in the large cities money to acquire farms, or to take any from whom his party expect to get no interest in farm development out of votes. They do not care what they do wages on which they can hardly live? with the industrial workers in the city The last measure considered by this because they know they are not going to House was one to reduce the status of get their votes. But they think if the every industrial worker in the com leader of the Government here can get munity, and yet the Government says two columns of a grandiloquent speech in that it desires to encourage rural settle the morning newspapers, pointing out the ment. . The best way to encourage rural great things the Nationalists are going settlement is to pay rural workers a 'mgc to do for the rural industries, ~he;y:, are llN 3S66 Community Settlements (COl.JXCIL.J and Ew·al Credit Bill.
going to kill ,dth o:1e blow .the Country gi,·e no credit for what was done by party on the one side, and the Labour theL:.tbour party 1 Mr. Hunt knows how party on the other. The hon. member ::'IIr. the Rural Bank scheme was developed Hunt knows the object of this speech. by the Labour party. Does he give them But the hon. member is so tied up with any credit for it 1 Ha;; he given them the National party that he hardly dare any credit for giving the producer 7s. 6d. vote against the Government .in this per bushel for his ·w hent? Rouse. Although the hon. member is The Hon. A. E. Hu:-~T : Certn,inly ! .supposed to represent the Progressive The Hun. R. W. C:ItUJOKSHANK: })arty, I ha>e not seen him, nor have I The hon. member never did, but he will -;Seen l\fr. Trethowan, record a vote except support any scheme which will give 4s. in support of the National party. or 5s., and at every opportunity depre The Hon. A. E. Hu:>~T: I voted against ciate the Labour party. I have fought a the bridge! country constituency, and won it on the Thfl Hon. R. \V. OR UIOKSHANK: local poll. My opinion is that the You thought you were pleaHing the people Farmers and Settlers' Associations and the -of the country ; you .voted against the other tin-pot little organisations in coun bridge because you were pbying up try di'
1 ['I'_he Han. R, W. Cruickshank. , CommunitySettlements [21 .Kov., 1922.] andBural Credit Bill. 38€7
. The .Minister .has explained at length of the n:rtion, outside matters affecting w'hat the objects 'of the bill are. I have big financiers, .is more necessary chan it is tried to draw attention to the vast differ in this Chamber. ·€nce between what is now prOJVGlse
I could not do now because I might the country workers. Every man who is render myself liable to pains and penalties engaged in rural industry is an economic for finding work for a man who is "down slave of the city workers. I fail to and out." I told him to go to the cook see why the city workers should be where he would get something to eat. brought into this bill and why his wrongs The cook gave him a loaf of bread and a -and he has none-should be made an pot of plum jam and two or three chops. argument ngainst this bill. I should be He ·threw the jam back saying he did out of order if I proceeded to show the not like it and wanted marmalade. It illogical nature of the hon. member's con appears to me that the same principles tention in that respect. actuate the hon. member Mr. Cruick The bill which the leader of the House shank. He talked against propaganda and forecasted had better be seen by the then entered upon counter propaganda, mem hers of t.his House before it is dis again imputing motives to the Minister. cussed. It i.> not the custom here to have Why he should impute motives to the an exhaustive debate upon the motion for Minister for giving a forecast of a the introduction of a bill. It would be bill of this kind is more than I can better before condemning the bill to see understand. I suppose the bon. member what was in it. When we see it we understands it. He then denounced the shall probably see something in it with organisation of the farmers as a tin-pot which we can all agree. If hon. members association, a hole-and-corner association, who have spoken would go about trying and so forth. It may be due to my own to find points of agreement with their lack of understanding but I fail to under fellow creatures instead of points of dis stand what any tin-pot association or agreement they would get along in this bogus association-which probably did world more happily for themselves and not go to hear the bon. member's address for everyone with whom they come in at Lockhart---:has to do with the objects contact. of this bill. For some part of my life The Hon. T. WADDELL: It is sur time I made a study of logic, but all the prising that the common-sense of the hon. study of logic I have ever made has been gentleman who has this bill in charge did quite incompetent to make me see any logic not protect him from the assaults of those in the speech of the hon. member. There behind him. It is only fair for me, as may have been some but, like the jewel in one who was associated with the hon. the toad's head, it was very carefully con gentleman on the agricultural committee, cealed. Of course the two bon. members to say that this subject came before the who have spoken have assured us they committee when we were taking evidence were in favour of assisting the rural and Sir Joseph Carruthers then seemed to industry, of course they said the rural be very much impressed by it. I under workers were badly treated by the pre stand that he has since obtained informa sent Ministry and of course, also, they tion from America, if not from other said the city workers were badly treated parts o£ the world, where a scheme of by the present Ministry, bntwhatall that the kind has been successful in operation. had to do with the bill I am sure I do So far from the hon. gf;nt.leman having not know, and those bon. members did made this speech for propagnnda purposes not explain. In accusing the Mini~ter of I can at once sav that he has nothing propaganda work they must have been of that kind i~ mind. He is very carrying out propaganda work for them enthusiastic about settling people on the selves. land, and it iR a very laudable cause of The Hon. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: The enthusiasm. If by promulgating some Minister said his speech was propaganda ! scheme of this kind that will not have a The Ron. Colonel ONSLOW : Propa boomerang effect upon the taxpayers he ganda for the bill-of course he said that. will help settlers on tho land ho will do a '..Che bon. member then repeated the great deal towards the settlement of our talk about the wrongs of the city country. I must confess th&t the scheme workers. What that had to do with he has outlined is very perplexing. Many it I do not know, but the city workers of the old economic law.~ that have a-re the people who are preying upon governed trade and commerce up to now 3870 . Conr.munitySei:tl13men&s tGOUNCIL.J . aiid,Bwrrlil Crec.'itBili. appear tu be- violated to some extent. should be. rP.a:somtbly expected of a. hank_ Ho.weyer I may not hM·e undf"rstood the It i& not ta the credit· of a.ny Gavernment. · hon. member. I tlllke it his idea itl that. to e~tablish a.n institation.. to lend money the settlers on the lane!· and ~ome engaged on. oth-er· tha.n common,sense lines- and. · in other pu.rsuits may band together and make the taxpayer foot the.· bill. take share~ in a. company w·hich they The Ron. S. R. INNEB-NOAD : fn may form ~1Ild c3Jlln bank; a.nd that they spite of the remarkR of the propagandists. may manage that bank aml lend money who haYe moRtly now left the Chamber;. t@ those who h·a.ve subscribed to the my feelin
The Ron. G. F. EARP: How are you the second reading of the measure. That going to have the bill if it is not intro causes in the minds of some hon. mem duced? What do they offer in place of it? bers the idea that there must be some Nothing. They remind me of a certain thing behind it; some particular reason Scotchman, who was very mean. He was for it. The hon. member stated that it l(loking into a shop window with his certainly was a very important measure, ,;weetheart, and pointing out the very and an important departure, with the nice things in the window, and he ended result that it would necessitate a good up by saying, "Weel, Jennie, what will deal of consideration by the persons y' tak' ~" She said, "\Veel, Sandy, I think directly interested, and he wanted to give I'll tak' what you are taking." Sandy them six months to consider it. He said then said, "Weel, weel, Jennie, I think that he had introduced the bill in order we'll tak' a walk." That is about all we that they might do this, and that we shall get out of the propaganda of the hon. might know something about it. If we gentlemen opposite. I will make them a had that privilege in regard to some present of their suggestion in regard to other legislation, just as important as the propaganda. If it is propaganda it this, no doubt the legislation would be in is good propaganda, in the interests of better form when it left Parliament than this country, and in the interests of our it is to-day. rural workers. I defy them to point to a I merely rose to say-and I think I single thing which was said by the Vice can speak for hon. members on this side President of the Executive Council that of the House-that as far as the object is not. of the bill is concerned-I do not know On the ruling of the President, though what it is likely to contain in detail-but I am in favour of the bill I will not say in regard to the object, as set forth, for much about it at present, though one could anybody to vote against such a motion talk for an hour on such an important would certainly be very bad. propaganda subject. Nothing more important could from hon. members who are sitting on come before this country at the present this side of the House. The word "pro time. I am in full accord with the Vice paganda" is used in two senses. One is President of the Executive Council, and I that it is propaganda so far as the intro think we owe a good deal to him for the duction of some improved methods re lucid way he has brought the matter be garding the business of the farmer is fore us. I intend to vote for the bill. concerned. It is not the fitst time that the hon. member Sir Joseph Carruthers The Ron. E. J. KAVANAGH: I do has referred in this Chamber to some not anticipate that there will be any thing of a similar nature-the improve division of the House on a question of ment of the position of the farmer by this kind. At any rate I trust there will community action, or by collective action not be, because after all it is a motion to attempt to finance himself, and to asking for leave to introduce a bill of be less dependent upon the Government which an outline has been given to us, or the State than the farmer gene and which, I think, every hon. member rally is. It is suggested that he should can approve. But with all due respect to be a little bit more independent, and, by the leader of the House, the course that collective action, be able to finance him has been adopted by him has been an un self in the various matters which are usual one, and it is that fact which has necessary for him to carry on, especially brought about the discussion in regard to in bad seasons. It is not the first time this bill. It is customary to take such a this has been mentioned in this House. motion as formal, and at such a late I understand that is the crux of the hill, period of the session, when we are antici so far as finance is concerned, and I pating that we shall have some difficulty . believe it is something which has been in finishing the session by to-morrow, the adopted in some other parts of the world, hon. member brings down this proposal although perhaps this is a little ahead of for leave to introdnce.this bill, and takes the rest of the world. If so, that does 80me pains to explain the bill, very much some credit to the Government which has as though he were making a speech upon introduced it. [The II on. 0. F'. Earp. OommunitySettlements [21 Nov., 1922.] and R1tral Credit Bill.
In the circumstances I think leave the proper place. With the introduction might be given to introduce the bill. We at this stage I have made explanatory do want the opportunity to discuss this statements, but not one word of my speech measure for six months, or longer. When could be used as propaganda. I was in the Ministry I know that we The Ron. Mr. Cruickshank's ~olleague, liked to get into recess, and we probably Captain Dunn, says that he also prepared should have been glad to stay longer in a bill, and that it has been in the archives recess than six months, ha·d we been of the department. Mr. O'JI.falley Wood permitted to do so. The period of the has prepared a bill also. This bill is recess is generally referred to as six the result of the work of various public months, but I do not suppose the country officers and others who have taken the would suffer if it lasted for nine months, matter up. No Government will claim to because I think we have sufficient legis make a party question of this, or to take lation to enable us to go on, as long as all the credit of it. I do not put forward we have efficient administration-and one single claim for the National party that is what this country wants. I do not or the National Government in regard to suppose there will be a division upon the it, nor do I intend to. I want this to be motion. treated as a question in which is involved The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS, the wellbeing of the community at large, in reply: In the Governor's speech at and above party. As for the Federal elec the opening of this Parliament the fol tions, I have never given a thought to them lowing words were used:- in regard to this matter. It never occurred A measure will be submitted to you to to me that the Federal elections were on place co-operative societies on a better until the Ron. :Mr. Cruickshank made his basis, and also to provide for the forma "proper goose" speech. Then, of course, tion of rural. credit nssociations, thereby my eyes were opened. We started here at rendering more cffecti.-.:J the work of the half-past 4. I laid on the table about Rural Bank. ten papers. I passed a long resolution, That was some time ago. There was no and I commenced to speak on this sub election on then; the elections were over. ject at about a quarter to 5. The hon. This is the result of the elections, and is member himself had spoken on the bill not in anticipation of another election. for some time. I looked at the clock One hon. member spoke of my speech as when I finished my speech and saw that "propaganda." There is another sort of it was then only twenty-one minutes past propaganda-probably he was the "proper 5, yet the hon. member said that I spoke goose." for an hour and a half. If the hon. member has not attempted to make two The Government not only promised this and two make five, I do not know what hill, but two conferences have already been he has done. I am quite sure that there held-one at Parkes, and one at Harden. must be something wrong with the hon. At both conferences resolutions were car member. The clock must have been going ried urging that the Government should fast, just the same as his tongue. But his bring down this bill. It has been stated mind was not going as fast as his tongue that before the session closed the Gov was and consequently he got tangled up. ernment would introduce the bill, but I hope that the hon. member when he that we would not proceed with it until comes out to make a "proper-goose" the opportunity had been afforded to those who were vitally interested to dis speech on the next occasion will take cuss it. I take it that it would be a wrong care to be a little more accurate in his thing for the Government to, first of all, figures and not accuse another hon. submit a bill to persons .outside Parlia member of making a "proper gander" ment. I stand open to correction, but I speech. say that the proper place for a bill to be Question resolved in the affirmative. introduced is here, or in the other Cham ber, and not at a conference. In order to Bill presented and read a first time:. put the matter on a constitutional basis [The President left the chair at 0.19 p.m. the bill is introduced here in Parliament- 'l'he 1louse resumed at 8 p.m.] ~~~ F.riend!y Societies Bill.\ [COU~CH•. J Unde1'cl~ffe Tmmway Bill. FRIENDLY SOCIEl'IES (AMEXDMEN'l') 'C'NDERCLIFFE TO FOREST HILL BILL. TRAMWAY BILL. Bill received from the Legislative As Bill received from the Legislative As sembly and (on motion by the Ron. Sir sembly and (on motion by the Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers) read a first time. Joseph Carruthers) read a first time. R~:cm>D READI:'W. '!'he Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRCTHERS SECO:'\D READING. moved: The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS moved: That the bill be now read a second time. He said : This bill pt·ovides for an amend That this bill be now read a second time. ment of the exiRting law in a very slight He said: This is a proposal for the con respect. Years ago a subvention. was struction of a line of tramway 1 mile granted to friendly societies and, amongqt 20 chains in length at an estimated cost other thing~, it. provided some State of £22,385. The uroject was referred assistance townnls dues owed by old, to the Parliamentary ·Standing Commit infirm, and in va.ii
Clause 4 (Coot and how to be defrayed). The .Hon. J .. F: COATES : The state The Ron. Dr. ~.ASH: I wish to draw ment which the bon. member made in' the attention of the Committee to the :tnswer to the hon. member. Dr. Doyle· nonsensical condition. in this. clause that. was as followll :- the cost "shall not under any circum The I:lon. Mrxrtin Doyle : Can you say stances exceed the estimated coot. by· whether the Liquor Bill will deal with thee more than 10 per centum."· referendum? The Hon .. Sir Jo8Pph Carruthe:n: No, that An Ro~. ::\{EUBER: That ought to be would be ,. highly contentious matter. I have 100 per· centum! cxl/lained that. the bill does not propose to deal The Ron. Dr. NASH: I am not much with any contentious matter. It is merely concerned with what it ought to be, but intended to prevent a very serious position many a time it has been more than 100 from arising through th-e expiry of· existing per cent. and in some instances it has legislation. The hill pro,·ides for the continua been 300 per cent. The amount involved tion of the Licenses Redaction I.:oard, and by in this bill is very small, but we passed passing it we do away with the· necessity of the a bill recently containing a: similar pro revival of the local option v.ote. It: would not: vision. which means-that thoseresponsible do to have the two things in operation, the for the construction. of the North Shore local option vote and subsequently the refer bridge have a margin of no less than endum. The bill is intended to. continue for a. £575,000 upon their estimated expendi· period the state. of affairs which exists; at the ture. Why this 10 per cent. should be present day. added I have never been able to· com Is that still the intention? prehend. If the· people responsible can The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS, not estimate the cost without requiring in reply : I shall rde'r to what was behind an allowance of 10 ner cent_ their power: the intention. Hon. membe1·s will not to estimate must be very 'poor indeed. assume that if one hon. member refers to Furthermore this prov:ision is nonsensi a clanse that therefore the dause i<:l con cal because no one observes it~ I hope tentious. I mean that we a.re to take a. this provision will not appear in future reaRonable view of the chuses. I under bills. stand there are l'roposals to which bon. Clause agreed to. membPrs· will obj<·ct·, and I. do not 'intend Bill reported· without amendment, and to deal with matters which are objected :passed throu,gh its remaining stages. to by a large numbe1· of members of the Ilouse. But there are other matters upon which I shall exercise my discretion until LIQDOR (A)iEK'miENT) BILL. I hear from bon .. members. There mav Bill received. from the. LcgislatiYe be some clauses that are debatable, and I Assembly. shall g these comiderations, and I approve of proposed to be collected for licenses. .the modification, but in Committee _pro At the present time license fees run from bably I may suggest 'for the guidance of £10·to £100 per annum. The fee is based the board aa1 additional consideration to on the annual rental value irrespedive 'guide them in coming to a determination. of the trade done. That is inequitable Tn view of the rapidly-altering conditions because, as pointed out in the Legislative of Sydney many places that were what I Assembly by the gentleman to whom might call residential areas are becoming all credit due for constructing this bill busines~ centreR, or industrial centre,. the ex-Minister of .T ustice, the hon. 0 :'l'here are suc)l places as the district about member l\Ir. McKell-the bill penalises East-street, and other places which con certain hotels, the keepers of which tain many slmn dwellings, hut which are ought to be given bonuses for keeping .rapidly becoming industrial centres, and them op"n for the convenience of the while we say that the liquor trad·e shall public. It is proposed under the h1ll remain with us, we should ~tlso recognise to make a Jeyy of 2 per cent. on a,ll pur that these pPople are .entir led to be Cll.t,erpd chases as the fee fm· the license. It has for by ~tn .adequate r1um ber of hotels in been stat.erl by the ;'.iini,;ter who intro the vicinity. In other worrlR, future duced the bill in the Legislative AsRembly •equirements should be taken into con that that \Yill produce an increased 'sideration. re,·enue of al'proximately £-!6,000 per Then there is another question I Rhould annum. 1ike to raise. It. seems to me that there 'l'he Ron. T. \VADDELL: I proposed that is an obvious anomaly ill thH 1919 Act in principle in a bill twenty years ago ! resrect to the proportion oi hotel licenses The Ron. R.. SPROULE: It com that may be eliminated by the board. mended itself to the Government of which No distinction is made in that Act I was a membPr, especially the Pstimated between purely residential quarters and increased revenue of £46,000. The business centres. \V e know that in system of charging on the business done various suburbs there may be a population is equitable, and has my approval. Pos -of 20,000, and probably during the hours sibly we sh[Lll have the advantage of hotels are open, say, from 8 o'clock in the hearing other legal bon. members express morning till 6 o'clock at .night, 70 per their opinions as to whether there is any -cent. of that population are engaged thin~ in a suggestion I shall rut forward in the Sydney electorate,. and yet all to-nighL. I. hope there will be no diffi -of those people are being catered for culty in collecting the money. It is fair in the suburbs in which they reside. to the trade, and there is a possibility, if That seems to me to be an anomaly, we attain office again, that the money will and I suggest to the Minister that it be useful to us. might be correeted by making some pro The Hon. W. E. V. RoBsON : Does vision whereby, instead of the number not that money go to the compensation that may be reduced not exceeding fund 1 -one-fourth in the Sydney electorat.e, it The Hon. R. SPROULE : No, not should be reduced by a number not the licen~ing fees. The money goes . exceeding say, one-fifth, or one-sixth. I into the consolidated revenue. The com hope that bon. members will see what pensation fund _is something- different. I mean by that. It i,:; a reasonable pro It is a contribution by the owner and position and I suggest it to correct a the licensee to comr:ensate those who -distinct anomaly, and an oversight in have lost their licenses and thereby the 1919 Act. It would indicate to the sustained loss. It is true that the Legis board that the Legislature intended it to lature, in the exercise of its police ·make some distinction, and to recol:jnise power, has power to regnlate the carry ·that in· the congested business centres of ing on of any business in thP. State; th~ city it should not reduce to the whole but if the proposed license fee is not (Sale extent that it would in the outer actually. a license fee, if it can be ·':Slii?v;r.1:is. , construed as a duty of excise within the Now I come to the next ouestiori, . meaning of section 90 of the Constitution .1)1a,t is, _the_ !l'lteration m t-he fee Act it may come within the prohibition [The Han. R. Sproule. Liquor (Amendment ),Bill. [21 Nov., ]g22.] Liquor (.Amendment) Bill. 3879 o£ that section in substance, although not and they will disap{lear by the action of the in .form. If it should be so held by the Licenses Reduction Roard in due c{)urse. High Court the dreams about those 46,000 Yet, even before that time, they will be golden ~overeigns will be dissipated, much checkP.d, when application is made, at the to the Government's dismay. end of the year, by the licensees for the 'l'he qut>stion appears to be whether .the renewal of their licenses. A license can bill i~> for the purpose of regulating or be refused on a police report that an -controlling the manufacture or liquor, or undesirable clas:o; of woman is serving in whether it is to impose indirectly a tax the bar, and the licensee has not, at the <>n the manufacture of liq nor in order to request of the police, discontinued the ,raise revenue. ..Whatever the form of the employment ef those undesirable persons. bill is, the court will look at the sub A further provision enal.Jl'"s regulation;;, stance. It will have regard to tl1e sub which may be o.f the most stringent stance of the bill, and if the High Court character, to be made, and member,s of construes the term "duty of excise" in both Houses of Parliament ''"oulJ do 'vel1 its wide meaning-an record an opinion expressed in the final community of interest with the people report of " The Select CommitteP- on the living around them. But in this particulat· Conditions and Prospects of the Agri industry we find that on a :~0 acre block cultural Industry and the ::\fethods of something like £700 or £800 per annum Improving .the Same." On page 104 this can be made after three years. And it is appea.rs: I tot an industry where the vines become old The stability of the industry of vine-growing and useless after a few years, for in this as a whole rests upon wine. report it is pointed out t.hat in therdistrict Further on it ~ays : I have referred to there are v: ;es 66 The value of viticulture in relation to closer years old which still are yielding a settlement.-The committee has been impressed splendid prvfit. 'l'he adva.ntagE> of having with the value of viticulture in relation to men under closer settlement in an industry closer SF-ttlement. Amongst small holders vine· such as thi<> mu~t appeal to my bon. yard areas range from I 0 to 3() acres. In suit ab!!' distr·icts a 50-acre holding with 30 acres friends, aud I do believe that if we under vines will give a competence to a man offer encouragement to it, instead of dis and his family. The point was stressed. in couragement, such as we find in this bill, respect to putting land in the settled districts we shall be going a long way towards to its most productive use, and it was shown that the vine areas in Australia are amongst solving the dilticulty of getting men from the most prosperous and closely povulatcd. It the city to go upon the land. was further demonstrated that, in certain dis There ar~ many clauses to which in trict•, ther This to me seems a most extraordinary law that where a woman of 40 years thing~ We find women capable oi taking. serves wine in a wine bar, the licensee ovet~a hotel. vVe find women being granted should be fined £20, while where a girl licenscstosellimportcd whisky. But under of 15 sells whisky in a low hotel, in the this'dause the widow of a man who has lowest p the city of Sydney for the last twenty . There are some provisions of the bill to five or thirty years complaints regarding which I think the strongest objection the management of wine shops have been should be taken. I take very strong continuous. It i~ not merely Sydney; objection to any differentiation between the same condition of affairs prevails in women serving in wine bars and women :Melbourne. The manner in which some serving in hotel bat·s. . A barmaid in a of these shops are conducted has been wine shop should receive from the law set forth in the press and in other ways, RO the same measure of consideration and that practically everybody knows Rome protection as the bar·maid in a hotel. If thing about it. I should like to know the wine l;hop is improperly conducted, why· the administration has not taken renewal of its license should be refused note of it, and why these licenses or it should be de-licensed by the Licenses. have been renewed from year to year by Reduction Board. That is the proper the Licensing Courts. Irrespecti,·e of the remedy. Licenses Reduction Board, which is quite But my stronge»t objection of all is to a recent thing, we have had licensing the ·following portion of proposed new courts for many years. The police muRt section .)SA : have known of this condition of things if · (3) .Any member of the police force may, they were doing their duty. They must without any warrant, stop and detain any have known as much as the man in the person seen coming out of any licensed premises at any time when such premises should not be. street knew. When they knew that open for the sale of liquor and reasonably sus theRe places were improperly conducted pected of earrying away liquor, and may search and were a scandal to the community such person and seize and carry away any why did they not object to a renewal of liquor found in his possession, and any bottle or vessel containing the same. the licenses 1 It seems to me that some of (4) Any person who resists or obstructs any this legislation would be quite unnecessary member of the police force in the exercise of his if, in the ordinary administration of the powers under this section shall be liable to a licensing law, the proper thing had been penalty not exceeding twenty pounds. done during the last quarter of a century. I make bold to say that that is an I approve in :1 general way of the pro abominable proposal. po~al that license fees should be fixed on An BoN. Mg~IBER: It is an absurd a percentage of the purchases. Many OnA! small hotels, especially in the country dis The Hon. J. RYAN: I uFe a s_tronger· tt·icts, which are run to a great extent to term, and say it is abominable. I do not serve the convenience of the public, are understand how any legislature within the charged abnormally high fees in com British Empire could sanction such a pro parison with the fees charged in the city posal as this. I desire to say that those and elsewhere in the case of big hotels that who support it must have a very poor do a large trade. The percentage basis is opinion indeed of what is owing to in thP. fairest. dividual libe; ty. Thou~ands and tens of "\V e must agree with the propoml to thou!>ands of people in the city of Sydney suspend the local option provisions of the might be bailed up by policemen and law for three years so that the Licenses subjected to this indignity for no reason Reduction Board may operate for that whatever. Have bon. members e\·er period. We cannot have the two systems stopped to consider how many people operating side by side. To my mind, come into this cit.y da.ily, weekly, and from a temperance point of view, the yearly 1 At the hotel where I am accus reform which can he effected by the tomed to stay they have, I am informed, an Licenses Reduction Board is much fairer average of 500 bookings per week, which and will be much more effective than any would amount to abou~ 25,000 bookings reform we m!ght expect from the local yearly. This means that, assuming the option poll, because invariably the result people come chiefly from country districts, of the local option poll is to leave un the people in that hotel at any particular diminished the number of licenses in those time arc equal in number to the popula centre~ which already have too many, nnd tion of a township. They are coming and to cut down the number in centres which going day and night. I myself am accus already-have too few. tomed to leave the hotel, wlwn this Hous& [The !Ion. J. E.yan. Liqu:or (Amendment) Bill. [21 Nov., 1922.) Liquor (Amendment) Bill. 3885 is in session, carrying a bag containing Some of them are extremely objection :Parliamentary and other papers-a handy able still, although legislation has remO\'Ed little bag, a suspicious policeman might a good deal of the ebjectionableness. think, for a bottle of whisky or a bottle From my personal observation in this of beer. l walk up to the House, and city the plac~s where wino is sold are under this proposal I might be stopped the most disgraceful and the most de on the corner, asked to open my bag, structive institutions in this city, and and explain where I got the liquor, if I I am glad to see in this bill a clause had any-though fortunately I do not which will compel places that sell wine have any. to comply with the conditions which The·Hon. Sir JosEPH CARRU'l'HEHS: are laid down. I hope that those condi The Ron. J. RYAN: As the Minister tions will Le extremely severe. 'Within -says this is really a Committee mea.snre. one mile of where we are sitting you can go I have to again express my surprise that to a place any time you like within speci such a propmml should be brought before fied hours and if you look through a swing any legislature, and I hope that this ing door-the only entrance to the plP-ce House will throw it out root and branch. you will see in a room without appreciable There should be no "doctoring" about it, light young girls and men one would not because you cannot amend a vicious pro speak to drunk and behaving disgmcefully. vision like this. The only way is to The Ron. J. F. Co.\.TES: What are the eliminate it. police doing 1 The Ron. Dr. NASH: The police have The Ron. Dr. NASH : Liquor bills are no· control, but I am glad to say they will {)ne of the few subjects which I have have under this bill. That is a clause we during my career in this House studiously should pass. A day or two ago I was avoided, for the simple reason that the travelling in a motor-car and in the subject-matter is insoluble by human in course of convermtion with the chauffeur ·dividuals. Alcohol is universal, and it one of these places was mentioned and is impossible to abolish it from the world. he told me it was really disgraceful. He With regard to the difference between referred to a man occupying a high wine, whisky, and beer, these cannot be position in the State who he said was a separated, because the man who goes in constant attendant at the place and was to drink, whether he drinks whisky, wine, known to every man and woman who or beer, a,lways gets the supply which will went there. It should not be for an give him the r~quired amount of alcohol individual like that to mention such a to produce the effect he wants. thing to me, but I know it of my own The Ron. J. RYAN : Does not a man observation, and I am glad to see there sometimes drink to quench his thirst 1 is a provision in this bill which· I hope The Ron. Dr. NASH: Tho man who will be strictly enfotced to clean up the drinks any spirituous liquor wants the citv. spirit, and it does not -matter how he 'he Ron. K J. KAYAXAGH: Which gets it. He takes the quantity that he provi~ion is that 1 requires to ·got the necessary "dope." The Ron. D1·. NASH : The bon. mem That is. very easily proved, though very ber will find it on page 19 in the ~·roposed few who drink know how to prove it. amendment of section 15;3 of the Act. 1'he man who drinks whisky takes from I hope the Minister will insist on t..hat },. an ounce to 2 ounces, the man who amendment. Before we had 6 o'clock drinks wine takes from 2 to 8 ounces, dosing it was not ;;afe f<'r any decent. and the man who f!Oes for beer takes from wor,_uln to walk down tho main streets of 10 to 20 ounces. Those \vho drink could the city. \~'hen I can10 back from the not tell ycu what percentage of nlcohol other side of the world in 1916 I was they require, but from experif'nce they shocked at the condition of tho city • "know that the quanfities I have stated because 1 had not seen anywhere any will produee exactly the ~nme effect. As thing so had. I hear women, e\·en to a matter of practical politics numbers day discussing the conditions which pre of what are called public house;. were vailed in the city before the advent of 6 extremely objeetionable a long time ago. o'clock closing. I hope the Minister will 3886 Liquor (Amendment) Bill. [COUNCIL.J Liquor (Amendment) Bill. 1,ot, give way in regard to anything which ashamed of the conduct of the Christians will tend to protect the people from the who lived in Cairo in my time. Ninety assaults and insults of p!lople who get nine per cent. of that conduct wa~;~ ..drunk. This idea of bailing a man up the sequel of the over-consumptwn of when he comes out, of licensed premiselil alcohol by the great white people there. anrl searching him-- Yet though that be the case, I am not The Hon. A. E. HUNT : What is there one to say that we should {Lbolish all wrong about that~ He is coming out of these things, but I am certainly one who a place which ought to be shut up! says now and shall ~ay for the rest of my life that the regulations imposed on the The Hon. Dr. NASH : I am a member sale of alL kind~ of alcohol should be of of the Australian Club and have been for' the very strictest kind in ·our State or many years, but I would not submit to in any other State, in order that we be seat·ched by a policeman under con may protect the weak or ~tnyone of ditions such as are laid down in this bill. any class from making such an exhi I object on the broad ground of the bition as that of which I ·was witness liberty of the subject, and I hope the when I lived abroad in the year 1915. Minbter is not going to press such a Still I am not prepared to interfere with cla.use through Committee. I would vote the liberty of the su~ject so gros~ly as to against the bill if it contained such a say that a man shall be searched by a clause. "\s to women serving in the policeman because he is comiug out of a hus, I do not like to see women doing licensed place. If he is drunk, arrest that. I give second place to no one in him as a dl'llnkard, and give him the this House in my respect for women, but punishment. But if he is a sober clean there are a number of occupations in man, I object to ·him being searched by .a ·which I do not like to see wome-n engaged. policeman. 'They may do all these things quite well, The Hon. A. :PJ. HUN'l': I was .greatly but the honest human individual does not struck with the keen tone of the debate like to see it. from the other side of the House. Hon. In my opinion alcohol is of no use what members there seem very anxious that ever a,; an ordinary stimulant to he con nothing shall ·be done to ·cut across the sumed in the ordinary way ; I say that rights of the citizen. My hon. friend Dr. as a medical man. But as a pleasing Nash, also is very anxwus that nothing adjunct to food or water, if a man likes shall be done in the way of challenging to take some in a free country I suppose a person, coming out o£ a· place which is he may. Tbeve is nothing new in abstin supposed to be closed, as to whether he is ence from aicohol. Mohammed, when canying anything contrary to law. A he was starting his new religion, laid law is a law, I take it, whether it is a it down that no man should take wine, liquor law or any other law, and we shall and everv man who is a believer in the presently reach the position that if a Komn t~-day still obeys the injur.ction respectable-looking man were coming out that no man is to ta.ke wine. You would of a Jane, and he looked suspicious, a bow your head for the rest of your life policeman would not be able to challenge with shame if, in any Mohammedan city him as to his bono, fides or as to what he where there is a large number of white had been doing. He might look like a people-Christian people-you were to respectable man. I believe a good many cmnp~tre the behaYiour of the Christian men in thiR city who are giving trouble man with the 1\lohammcdan man. The to-day are quite respectable gentlemen, Mohammedan man does not takP wine. and quite well-clothed. If a policeman He would be ostracised from his religion had not the right to go up to any man if he ·did. That is one of the 1·easons whom he saw in· suspicious circumstances, the Turk is the great fighter he is, and and to challenge him as to his actions a.nd why Kemal Pasha has been able, in a whereabout8, where should we be, as far ·great fight, to restore the Caliphate as the law is concerned? In these days and again put the Turk in possession of you cannot judge men by their appear , a great empire. I lived a year in Egypt, ance. Their appearnnce goes for nothing. and I shall spend the rest of my life As I said before, the men who to-day are [The H on. D1· .. Nash . . ·Liquor (Amendment) Bill. [21 Nov., 1922.] Liqnor (Amendment) Bill. 3~8·7 ·giving the greatest trouble are gentlemen why any officer of the law ~;bould be who probably are riding about in cal>s, or allowed to exercise his discretion without motor-cars. \Vhen anv man comes out a warrant, properly obtained. In Com of .a, club, or anywher~ else, if the law mittee I shall oppo~e that clause. says that place has to be closed at a The Hon. E. J. KAVAN ACE : ·I certain time, and it. is closed accord recognise that this measure is really what ing to law, then I do not eare whether ma,y be termed a Committee bill. ':J1he that man stands high or low in the social fact that the leader of the Government in scale, he should submit to the law and to this House did not make a second-reading ·being challenged, if there is any necessit.y speech when introducing the bill suggests to challenge him. I hope that the leader that it really is what we might ter.m a of the House will not give way at all. Committee bill, and that the subje'ct may One bon. member said that I would not be discussed as we consider the various' like to be searched. If I came out of a clauses. At the same time one does not feel! public house to-morrow night after hours inclined to giYe a silent vote on the second' I would not object to being searched. I reading of the measure. I approach this would expect to be searched, if I met a subject mainly from the standpoint of: policeman, and the policeman was doing encouraging Australian industrie;;. 0ne of his duty. It would not take him long to the big industries which Austril>lia 1bas ~< :nm the rule" over me. l would let him something to be 'proud of is its wine .feel all the pockets 1 could carry a bottle industry. \Vhile there is little or no in. If a man comes out of a ·place, and objection to the wine industry as an the law says that the place should be industry and to the consumption of·wine closed, .a man must expect to run the by the people--it is -recognised even; by gauntlet of the law. I hope the leader our medical men that the drinking of of the House w~ll stand to fwery word of wine is something that might well •be• this clause, because it is wanted. \"'e all encouraged in certain directions and .in know how very-easy it is to put up these certain ways-the principle objection ,js. pitiable cases. One would almost have to the manner of its distribution or 'the· thought that the hon. member Mr. Ryan control of wine bars. ·I do not profess. was shedding tears on behalf of· the to·be a teetotaller, but certainly,,a,.'l far people he was trying to defend or uphold as ·wine consumption is ·concerned, I as far as this bill is coneerned. It is as know very little about it. Since the bill easy as falling off a log to.. put up ,a very was presented to the Lower Chamber necessitous case, but a man should never I havP, in orde1· ·that I ~might -.know object to r;onform with the .law. If we something ~1bout the subject of wine-'hars, are not going to enforce the law the police an~ matters of that .kind, made ·it .my will have no right to search men who are husiness t.o visit --some of them, R~nd coming out of these questionable places. I m~ty say I visited quite a num~ I say there should be no question of social ··ber. I was struek ·with the variety standing, as far as the' law is concerned. of the persons one meets in connection The Hon. Sir OWEN COX: I think with the wine trade. Different :classes that in approaching ,t,his q~estion "':'e of people are catered for. I ~as ~m- should be reasonable. I here IS a law m ·pressed -with this fact, that the .wine this count~y, ~nd it is _generally admitted ·_grow:ers and merchants connected .~with. ·that it is .administered in a reasonable .the business might serve their own spirit. 'If my hon. friend Mr. Hunt were .intere5ts and those of the country,-'as .a: seen coming from a neighbour'~ premises 'wine-produeing country, better if they one afternoon with .sheep that ri1ight took a little more interest in the.question. reasonably be presumed not to belong to of the- distribution -of the ·wine t9 th~>t him, the law would not say that he \Was . consumer. to be arrested without.a warrant,,and if We· have -an excellent system of pro- a respectable citizen .\vere seen coming out duction· and cont.rul up to a point, but of .licensed . premiBes at any time .with when it reaches that point-that .is when liquor in his po~session that might have the wine goes over the counter or thei:bar been .purchasPd for a legitimate purpose, to the consumer-the whole thing· .seems ·during licensed hours, there is no reason to be left to· the person who puts 1:hi15 3888 Liquor (Amendment) Bill.· [COUNCIL.] Liquor (Amendment) Bill, money into_ the busines~ and does his t() that adopted in South Australia. best to make it pay. We ha•·e in this There the women already in the business city some excellent proprietor.-< of wine were registered and no further registra shops who take a broad national view of ti~Js were permitted. This anangement the subject, and who have a desire to permits of the continued employment of encourage the wine industry. As long the women previously engaged in the as it is a legitim the operations of that board for another When that board has done its work under three vears, and that in the meantime no the 1919 Act the public should have local ~pt ion poll shall be taken. All restored to them the rights they enjoyed the rights of the people to control the under the 1912 Act. I voice these views liquor trade have been set aside; and it because I feel dissatisfied with the fact has simply been vested in a board to say that it is proposed in .this measure to what reduction shall take place in accord :mspend the local option for so long a ance with the scheme laid down in the period. 1919 Act. There is.also a proposal that The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS, the discarded prohibition referendum in reply: I am grateful to hon. members which was ignored by the previous GoY for not debating this bill at undue length. ernment shall be taken at some date in However, I think only a few points will the future. There is no legislation before be raised in Committee, and I will en this House with regard to it, but I under deavour to meet bon. members on those stand some promise has been made to points as fairly as I can, but I do not that effect. I want to say that I con want my remarks to be misinterpreted. sider the temperance movement has been Simply because a matter is contentious I sidetmcked to n, great extent by that am not going to eliminate it. That promise of a referendum. Although I would be absurd. '\Ve are l1ere to deal hold strong views as to the benefit of with highly contentiousma.tters, and what wiping out, if it be p.>ssihle, the liquor I have said I will stand by. Highly trade, I am not one of those who think it is contentious matters ought not have a. po~Jsiblcto do that in this country at one fell place in this bill, and I shall not insist swoop, pttrticularly when it is associated upon them, but I am not convinced with a compensation 'fund amounting to that any contentious matter::; exist at the £12,000,000 or £i!>,000,000. I say that present time. I lHwe been very much the right of the people to control the impressed by the debate with regard to liquor interests in the electoratrs should the right to search, but I would point out have bef'n pre<;erved, at any rate. Even to bon. member" that this provision if you suspend it you have no right to giving a police constable the right to suspE.nd it for so long a period as is pro~ search waH in the bill which was drafted posed in this bill. We have larger elec by Mr. McKell. torates now, and it is possible to give The Hon. Dr. NASH: It was never effect to the views of the pt!ople over passed by this House ! larger a.reas. This proposal, to my mind, The Hon. Sir .JOSEPH CA RRUTH.ERS: is not entirely satisfactory, particularly The hon. member says this bill will do in the metropolitan area. I do not think away with the Pvils of wine bars and the man ,who earns his livelihood in the the state ·of affairs of a few years ago city should be confined in the exercise of when drunken people were everywhere his right.;; as a citizen on this particular about. the city. Yet the hou. member is ·matter. I do not think that he should prepared to vote against the whole bill exercise a voice which is effective only so because he objects to the right to search. far as the area in \vhich he actually lives In this matter he says the M.oham is concerned when a question of social medans ,;et us an example. We are to reform and social importance such as this have drunkenness all o,·er the city, we· has to be decided. A man should he able are to have women insulted in the streets, to vote on ·the question over the whole we·are to have wine bars with all their area. If .that were done we would gradu evils, but Dr. Nash must not be Rearched ally keep pa.ce with temperance sentiment. because he happens to have .a bottle If temperance sentiment is gt·owing, and ·sticking out of each pocket. If that is the people want reduction they should have not an anti-climax, I do not know what it. This m.eaRure, whilst it abrogates the is. Then· the· hon. member, Mr. 'Hunt, local option htw ·and •suspends it for asks, "What objection ·can~a.man have to another period does not put anything in being searched after thE> bars are closed 7" its place. The.Licenses Beduction Board The bars here are supposed to close .at () ought surely be able to do its work beforfl o'clock. Suppose every time the . hon. .a period of three years has elapsed. member Mr. Hunt walked down the street [The Hon. W. E. V. Robson. Liquor (Amendment) Bill. [21 Nov., 1922.] Liquor (Amendment) Bill. 3891 with his pockets bulging with Parliamen There is no need to have a stigma on the tary papers in the shape of a bottle, a wine trade which ·does not attach to the policeman stopped him, would he like to liquor trade. People say that wme be searched ~ bars are a mere cover for brothels. The The Ron. A. E. HuNT : I would not sooner we cheek that the better. That object! is all the Government aims at in these restrictions in regard to wine bars. The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS ' Power is taken to regulatt>, and that I put one extreme against the other: I power does not mean that there will do not think we shall have any senous be any '' wild-cat " regulations. I am difficultv about that clause. Let me take authorised by the Minister of Justice tG the Ho~se into my confidence, and tell say in regard to this bill aR I was author it that this clause was drawn up b_v ised by the-Treasurer to say in regard tG ::\1r. McKell largely at the instance of a the 8tamp Duties Bill, Homething which number of people engaged in the liquor can ao on the records of Parliament and trade, to check the practice which has by :hich the Government will be bound. grown up where a man, in order to carry The power to pass these regulations in on an illicit trade and make a profit out respect of wine bars will be confined to of the liquor traffic after hours, acts as a this: the locking up of that part of "bootlegger." Hotels close at 6 o'clock on "mixed" shops which is used for the sal~ Saturday night until Monday morning. of wine. If we were to try to devise a They .are supposed to be closed on Sun clause or frame c•ne solitary regulation day. It has become a practice for carts it would fail because the conditions with to "0 down the back ways of hotels and regard to "mixed" Rhop3 which have wine obt~in ca~es or bottles of beer, and then licenses vary in diiferGnt parts of the "0 down to a park or elsewhere and supply State and perhaps on different days of drink. Hotelkeepers realise that if that the week. In ceTtain country district£ ·sort of thing goes on it will make their this busiu"ess is c:;rriecl on on Friday . livelihood more precarious. ThPy would nights, in other places on other nights. like to see it stopped, and the community The conditions var:y, &nd the regulations would like to :;ee it stopped. That is will have to vary. The regulations, for the object aimed at., but iL may be that l.h<1 making. of wnich power is given ·t(} the way it is attempted to be achieved the Govemment under this bill, will creates a greater danger than the evil simply provide a reasonable and practical it is supposed to overcome. However, u-ay of worl:1ng, so that, just ss in thP. that. is·a matter with which we can deal •:asc of hotels, which after certain hours when we have more time to look at it. bave to lock up their bars where liquor I do not hold with the speech of the is kept, there can be a provision wbereby hon. member Mr. Coates. There i~ no in a shop licensed to sell wine, the wine doubt he is trying to ·get some conces can be kept in- some compartment ~r f'ions 'for the men and··women ·with wine place v.-hich can be locked up and 1f licenses. That is all very well. At the no~cessar:v 8ealed a:ftnr certain hour£. same time most of his speech wa.k in advo Question resolved in the.affirmative. cacy of vine-growing. · I do not h~ld,with Bill read a second time. the people who want to destroy Wl':e-pro ducing in this State. The more wme .we In Committee: produce, the more people there a;e e? Clause 1 -agreed to. ga~ed in vine-growing, the better 1t w1ll Clause .2. The. Principal Act is amended be for this country. . I would sooner see in the following respects :- half of Australia covered with vines than by ~mitting ~ecti~n 2i and insert~ng in covered with nettles and prickly-pear and lieu thereof the followmg new sectiOn :- thincrs of that character which do not 21. (1) .The following fees shall. be paid assist to maintain a population. At the in respect of licenses under this Partr same·time the bon. member will be doing namely:- better service to the wine·trade and the (a) For a new publican's license: such sum (not .exceeding five hundred wine:producing industry if he pmifies t~e · pounds).. as may .be fixed by the licens trade and assists the Government. to rlo 1t. ing court grantip.g the license. , :38!)3 Liquor (Amendment) Bill. [COUNCIL.] Liquor (Amendment) B1"ll. (b) For the renewal of a publican's It seems to me to be a tremendous power lic-ense, a sum equal to two pounds to give to the Licensing Court.. I do not per centum of the gross amount (in cluding any propose to move an amendment; I merely Jraw attention to it. ·(h) For a new colonial wine license, such sum not exceeding fifty pounds as The Hon. MAH'l'IN DOYLE: I Fihould may be fixed by the court. like to call the attention of the Vice ·(i) For the renewal of a colonial wine President of the Executive Council to the license, a sum equal to two pounds use of the word " colonial," in paragraph per centum of the gross amount (in (h) of tbe propoEed new section :n. cluding any duties thereon) paid or Reference is made to "colonial wines." payable for all liquor which, during the twelve months ended on the I have very strong objection to that word thirty-first day of December next "colonial." It is more or less a term of preceding the date cf the application reproach, not only in regard to wine, but for the ren;')wal of the license, was to men. For many years I have tried to delivered upon or purchased for the impress upon people who look upon premises in respect of which such '' Uolonials" as inferior people, that they renewal is sought. should drop that word. I think we should use 'the ter·m "Australian wine." I am The Hon. J. F. COATES: In keeping ·with my remarks at an earlier stage, I altogether against the use of the word would call attention to paragraph (i) of "colonial." proposed new section 21. In that we are The Hon. Sir JosRPH CARRUTHERs : It ·departing from the principle that Gov is in the original Act. We have to use -ernments have laid down for many years the word that is used there ! ·past-to give every encouragement .pos The Ron. MARTIN DOYLE: I think sible to the growing and .distribution of the hon. gentleman might take that into wine. Here for the first time we have a consideration when he is ltmending the proposal to increase the present tax by original Act again. ~n amount that would, in some cases, be The Hon. Sir J OSRPII CARRDTIIRRS : It £100. This dause puts the wine industry is an objectionable phrase, but we have on exactly the same footing as hotels. to put up with it for a little while ! which have the privilege of selling all Amendment (by Bon. J. F. CoATES) ·classes of drinks, whereas wine licensees proposed: may sell only wine. The wine -saloon ·proprietor has no other means of income The paragraph (i) of proposed new section 21, in subclause 14 of clause :1, be struck out. -such as the hotelkeeper has. The latter may provide accommodation for persons. The Ron. G. A. DEWAR : I wish to Those who believe in continuing the oppose the amendment. I think that as policy of assisting the wine industry by fa.r as revenue is concerned the wine making the distribution of wine as cheap trade is treated too liberally. I am ·as possible, and removing other handi taking a citizen's view of the liquor -caps, will prefer to leave the law as it is trade. I am a brewer, and on the liquor to-day, and will vote with me for the question my remarks may perhaps be ·striking out of paragraph (i) when I misinterpreted. I am watchin.o: with move later to strike it out. interest the American experiment in regard to prohibition. What I should The Ron. Dr. NASH : I wi~h to refer like to .see carried out is the system of to one matter here which may have tue socialisntion of the distribution of escaped attention. In subclause 14 of liquor whic11 is bei~1g or proposed to be clause 2 thet·e is a proposed new ~eetion carried out in British Columbia. No. 21, subclause I (a) ;;f which says: The CHAJRMA:o<: Order! (]) The follnwing fees shall he r•aid in respect The Ron. G. A. DEWAR: 'What B oof licenses under this part, namely :- the duty on wine? The ordinat·y working ~a) For a new pnblican'd license such sum (not man's heer payR a duty of Is. 9cl. per gal excee The Hon. Sir. JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: The Hon. Colonel ON8LOW: The He cannot carry on a mixed busin ess Committee is labouring under certain He cannot carry on a store or fruit shop difficulties. We do not quite know what in connection with his hotel and keep the effect the amendment would have on the store or fruit shop open until all hours of clause. At this late stage of the session the night. We have made a concession bon. members have not time to understand to the holders of wine licenses in order to the bearings of 'the various clauses of the encourage the wine industry and we have bill. It is only an hon. member who has to hedge the licenses round with certain the liquor law at his finger ends who restrictions. ·we propose that after the would know what the effect of the amend passing of this bill no wine licenses shall ment would be. If you take any code of be granted to women, but those woroen laws such as the Code Napoleon or the who are now in business will not be inter English common la,w you find some logical fered with. If the hon. member would sequence running through it. restrict his amendment to make it apply The Hon. Sir JosEPH CARRUTHERS: to widows it might be acceptable. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, The Hon. J. :F. CoATES: The same con but the se~sion is drawing to a close, and {]itions as apply in the case of a woman 1 would draw your attention, Mr. Presi who holds a publican's license would be dent, to the fact that the bill deals with fair! females in wine bars. I do not know what Napoleon has to do with the matter. The Hon. MARTIN DoYLK: Why not The CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. member leave it to the bench ? to discuss the clause. It is a simple The Hon.SirJOSEPH CARRUTHERS.: matter. I£ the Committee thinks the time has not The Hon. Colonel ONSLOW: "\Ve are arrived to make thi;; restriction, let it now putting women on an equality with throw the provision out. My opinion is men, and I am asking for some logical that what the hon. member suggests application of our lawR. I wnnt to know would endanger the wine-st-lling indu~try whether they are to be logical, or merely and the wine-producing industry. It is empirical. I find that we have one set of not desirable to have females too closely laws conferring privileges upon females, connected with this unregulated industry. and putting them on an absolute basis It is the mixed shops tl111t are the trouble. of equality with all other citizens. Here You may have to do away with mixed we have something phtcing a disability .shops if women are to be loosely employed. upon them. I want to know why this Due purpose of the bill is to do away disability is to be pl.wed upon them. with the association of women with wine There may be some reason, but we first bars. I am in the hands of the Com of all, in our geneml theory of law, mittee, but I shall ~upport the clause as put them on a basis of equality, while it stn,nds. now we are saying that they are not The Hon. N.J. BUZACOTT: The pro to earn their living in a certain way. I vision probably does an injustice to the want to know why. I only s11ggest that widow of a Lleceased licensee. If a pro we should be a little cautious as to how viso were inserted to the effect that it we introduce anomalies into our legal sha-ll not apply to the.widow of a deceased system. I know there are any•amount licensee it would be more acceptable ! of them, and most of them are brought The Ron. Sir JoSEPH CARRUTHERS: It about by ill-.considered statute lawx. I would only be for a period in such a case. am asking for information, and pointing out to the House that here is a consider The Ron. N.J. BUZACOTT: Till the able anomaly which relates to the status next licensing day. The bon. member of females under the law of New South ;Sir Joseph Carruthers has said that it Wales. -does not apply to women who now hold The Hon. MA.R'l'IN DOYLE: I am a licens<.'. · It would apply when they strongly opposed to the invidious distinc wanted to get a renewal of their license ! tion the bill makes as regards women. The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS : If the Government had taken into con I do not think it applies to a 1'enewal. sideration t.he ·question· of excluding all' [The Hen. SirJ.oseph Carruthers. Liquor (Amendment j Bill. [21 Nov., 1922.) Liquor(Avundm.ent j Bill. 3895' foreigners from keeping wine bar~, the The Hon. A. E. HUNT : I think that chances are that the wine-selling trade the hon. member Mr. Buzacott has stated would he very much better conducted a case which the House ought to be in than it is to-day. In t!te country I know sympathy with. I am in sympathy with numbers of cases where women keep wine the bill as drafted, but I think hardship shops. They are well kept, and are a would be inflicted in a case such as the great advantage to the travelling public. one Mr. Buzacott. has cited. If the' We are now legislating generally against husband dies during the currency of a the conditions which have been exposed license his widow might he placed in the of late years in cor:nection with Sydney position of not knowing what to do. wine bars. These conditions do not exist The Hon. Sir OW-EN COX: It seems -or if they do, only in a very small way to me that a difficulty has arisen with· -in the country. Country wine sellers regard to the correct definition, and if the are, as far as my experience goes, a very word "unmarried" were inserted it would highly respectable lot of people, and I am meet the wishes of the House. stronl!ly opposed to making an invidious Amendment (by the Hon. J. F. distinction in this case. If the Govern CoATES) by leave withdrawn. ment is going to make distinctions, it The Hon. N. J. BUZACOTT: I pro ought to put a clause in the bill to prevent pose to move the following proviso : foreigners from keeping wine bars. Provided that this subsection. shall not apply The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRCTH~~RS : to the widow of the deceased licensee. No foreigner can hold a wine license ! The Hon. Sir JosEl'H CARRUTHERS: I The Hon. N. J. BUZACOTT: I do would suggest to. the hon. member that not want to do an injustice. I under-. the words "other·than the.widow of the sta.nd this provision applies to the store deceaEed iicensee" would meet the case. keeper who holds a wine license and sells The Ron. J. F. COATES: It is well wine in bottles. In a case where such a for the Honse to understand exactly what man dies, how will his widow· stand 7 it is doing. As the clause is now drafted ·wm· she sacrifice her bu~iness ~ L would ifa woman for·health reasons goes out of suggest an amendment to add the fol a hotel business she.cannot. obtain a wine lowing.: license. Pr01·ided that this subsection shall not apply The Hon. S. R bNES-NOAD: How to the widow of a deceased licensee. often would that occur 1 That would give her an opportunity before The Hon. J. F. COATES: It might. the next licensing court to dispose of. the occur very often, and I want to know· business in a proper manner. what the House is prepared to do. The Hon. J. F. COATES: Will the The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS : If Vic~-President· of the Executive Council we make that the ger.eral policy of the accept this amendment : law she has t0 abide by it just as any This provision shall not apply in the case of other woman has, nothwithstanding the a widow. fact that she owns a big public house. The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS : This exemption will be made in favour The Ron. J. F. COATES:. We seem to of the widow of.the. deceased licensee ! be differing, and I think by this time it The Hon. J. F: COATES: In the· case must have dawned on the 1eader·of the of a hotel that restriction will not· be House that thi5 is a contentious clause. there. It is a restriction on the wine A woman may have spent all her life trade only. \Vill the M.inister grant the· time conducting a hotel, but she_may wish same rights to a per·son who obtains a to get out of it owing to special circum· wine license as,are now accorded to the stances and take a .wine license~· Under person who acquires a hotel. license 7 this bill she will be allowed to continue The Hone Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: as a hotelkeeper, but if she sells out she I have tried to make it clear that if the cannot obtain a wine license. I suggest House by sitting for a few hours can the followin~ addition :- eliminate the right to carry on adualoccu,' This provision shall not apply in the case of pation well and good-the right to carry on a widow. a.fruit and tobacco shop :<)r all hours with 389G _Mrzuor (Amendment) Bill. [COUNCIL.] Liquor (Amendment) Bill. a wine license; the right to have a grocer's a privilege, if it is a. privil{'ge, that en~ry l.lusiness and to St'Jl wine. This dual hotelkeeper in the State enjoy~. This occupation is permitted with r!"gard to provision will prevent the holder oi an 'Yines but not with regard to beers and Australian wine license from employing spirirs. l say put them all on the same any female other than his wife, daughter, footing, but having givea to the holder or any relation, whet·eas the hotelkeeper. of a wine license a greater privilege he further along the street may employ what cannot have it both wnys. He must females he chooses to serve in !tis bar_ One accept this new disqualification. We have other di8ability worth mentioning is that if eliminated women from the trade. Why 1 the Committee decides that we are to make Because they would he keeping premises the Australian wine seller 0mploy men open after G o'clock at night. "What· only, and allow the hotelkeeper to emplcy ch'l.nce has & woman to protect herself women only, it will be an additional tax against a man 1 She cannot fight like a on the wine ooller, because he will be man and exercise the rights of .a man compelled to employ men to serve in hif! when it .comes to bodily prowess. She bat· at £i l2s. 6d. a week each, >vhil~t has to protect that plnee nnd kP.ep it the hotelkeeper·, who i~ also licensed t(} closed. Again, as long as sex is sex sell wine, will have girls, who are paid there will be that trouule with women £2 12s. 6d. a week, selling ex~tctly the which has be~n associated with wine same wine, as well as beer, whi~ky, rum, licenses, and which is getting the wine and other liquors. 'l'he position i~ so industry a. b~td reputation. The disquali- unfair that I look to hon. members to fication which npplie8 to the hotelkeepm· strike out the provision. must also apply to the keeper of a wine The Ron. N.J. BUZACOTT: I inter- license, if you insist that the two shall jected a little eal'lier that the general stand on an equal footing. I have storekeeper who sells wine only in bottlPs offered a fair compromise, and i£ the should be placed on a different footing hon. member doe.q not like to accept that from those who sell wine for consumption I must ask the Committee to stand by on the premises. \Ve would do well to the bill. insert after the word "liquor" in sub The Ron. J. F. CoATES: Under the clause (2) of the words "for consumption." cit·cumstances we will bawl to accept it ! The Ron. ~ir JOSEPH CAURU'l'HERS: If Amendment (by Ron. N. J. BuzACOTT) we try to provide for all these minute agreed to: details we shall only get into a tangle ! That after the word "female" the worrls "other than the widow of the licensee" be The Hon. N. J. BUZACOTT: There inserted. may certainly be a tangle; I recognise the difficulty; but I have in mind the case of storekeepers who employ female (:':5) By omitting section fifty-two and insert- ing in lieu thereof the following new section :- labour. A saleswoman ma.y be supply- (52) {l) If the holder of a colonial wine ing a customer with several packets of license allows any female other than his wife or groceries and when that customr refers is. serve liquor on his licen>ed premises he •hall be a very sniall one. I do not think this liable for every such ollence to a penalty not exceeding five pounds ; clause should be discussed purely upon its economic mer~ts. The object of the The Hon. J. F. COATES: I move: clause, as I understand it, is to protect. That subclame (l) be struck out. womeu. \Vhile I am quite prepared to This is a matter on which we can get a encourage the wine industry, I am not clear-cut issue as to wltether the keeper of prepared tf) do so at t.he expense of the an Australian wine bar is to be deprived of mo·itlity cf o•Jr women. T!::e clause. means [The Han. Sir Joseph Carruthers. Liquor (Amendment fBill. [21 Nov., 1922. J L1'quor (Amendment) Bill. 3897 that the sale of wine shall be conducted or his club a policeman might stop him in a way that will not harm our wo::nen and search his bag. I contend that this folk. will nut be a free country if \\ e pass such The Hon. J. F. CoATES : Still, a woman a law, and I am certainly against the will be able to gf't wine in an hotel ! provision altogether. This is not the The Hon. A. SINCLAIR: That is no way to make people good and reduce the reason why we should allow her to get it cons;Jmption of liquor. It will merely here. The mere fact that you duplicate irritate the people nnd cause great harm. afl evil does not tum it into goo:l. This If a man goes to the Hotel Australia to clause deals mainly with the interests of have din~cr with his family and on our womenfolk, and anyone who knows coming away Lrings with him some liquor anything about these win;) shops knows purchased before 6 o'clock he may be their character perfectly well. \Ve ar•.J stopped by a policeman and have his dealing with a condition of offairs that we baggage examined. Auyone who inter know actually exists. There is an evil fere3 with the policeman, including the at the present time, and this is an attempt man who is stopped, may be fined heavily to minimise that evil. I am not going to or imprisoned for six months. This is not do anything to extend it. I want to the kind of law \Ye should have in a free minimise it as wuch as possible. This country, and it would be broken daily. clause contains something that will safe I appeal to the Vice-President of the guard our womenfolk, and I prefer to Executive Council to eliminate this pro support it as it stands. vision. Thi<; is ':t Yery big bill containing Amendment negat,i,·ed. a number of important clauses and we should be allowed plenty of time to dis (38) by inserting at the end of section fifty eight the following new section :- cuss it.. vVe ~hould have had placed: 58A (I) Every person who carries away liquor. before us a consolidating measure. from any licensed premises at any time "hen The Hon. W. E. V. ROBSON: I think such premises shonld not be open for the sale of the hon. member is conjuring up cases·. liquor· shall for every such offence be liable to a that are not like1y to occur. How many penalty not exceeding twenty ponnds : people who go t') the Australia Hotel in . ProviJe a roan to buy liquor and take it away illiterate policeman. We must admit from an hotel unless he is a bona fide that some police are very ignorant and traveller. This is a protection to the very illiterate, an attribute which the hotelkeeper, who will not be the person force shares with other members of the charged. The only person who m:>y community. While I do not wish to do take liquor a way will be the bona fide anything to encourage illicit trading in traveller. He is not going to put the liquor, I do not desire to do anything hotelkeeper in a hole. He will be in a which would prev:mt a perfectly innocent hole himself if he is not a bona fide travel use of liquor, and debar the ordinary ler. The liquor trade docs not want "boot citizen from enjoying his liquor in a legging." All this palaver about the clubs proper manner at any hour of the day. is rubbish. If we are to allow a number ·When I see a clause of this kind, it 6f clubs to do what the ordinary citizen seems to me an extraordinary thing that is not allowed to do in a hotel I say this Chamber should be called upon to that the clubs are dooming themselves. protect the liberty of the· subjtct, and We must assume that the police are not that the other Chamber should have so fools. HaYe we ever had complaints nPglected its duty in that regard. against the police that they rush in to get The CHAIRMAN : Oroer ! convictions unnecessarily 1 No, they have The Ron. D. STOREY: "Any licensed enough work to do in administering the premises" includes club~, and it includes Jaw without worrying about prosecuting hotels. I do not want any club to have ·decent people who are not. offenders. To preference over a hotel. I£ a small assume that every mi1n is liable to prose public house in the interior is contrib cution because he goes out to play a game uting to the reYenne by means of a license· of bowls, and happe1is to have a bottle in fee, it has the right to the same pri,·ileges his pocket., wLieh he bought at 1 2 o'clock . as a club, which according to this bill will in the day, is an insult to one's intelli pay a license fee in the same proportion. gence. By agreeing to the amendment we shall The Ron. Colonel ONSLOW : I agree not give the club any preference what with what the hon. member Mr. D. ever. I am desirous of placing every Storey has said. The leader of the body who pays a license-fee on the same House has stated that under the bill it eommon ground. Clubs should have no will be unlawful to buy liquor after hours. preference, and I contend that the pro '!'his is not a question of buying or selling. vision ought not to be in the bill. I would point out to the Committee that The Hon. A. E. HUNT : For the life there are many people in the country of me I canno~ see what hon. members districts of New South Wales who live in who have just spoken really de,:;ire. I do hotels. It is quite possible that a bank not know whether they would like to clerk, or a civil servant, or a commercial remove from the bill the only thing that traveller may be living in an hotel. If he lays down a condition under which went out fishing and took a bottle of beer spirits can be taken away from licensed with him he would be breaking the law. premises. They seem to be taking special It is all v~-ry well for the leader of the interest in the position of clubs. It House to say that the hon. member Mr. would almost make one think that they D. Storey was unfairly anticipating have been doing what this provision discussion on the next clause, but this -wants them not to do. When I see the -{llause must be read in conjunction with provisions which protect a licensee, the following clause. lodger, or traveller, I see that every man The CHA.IR~!AN: I must ask the hon. who might legitimately want to take spirits member to confine his remarks to the away after an hotel is closed is safegua.rded. clause now before the Committee. vVhy hon. members desire t0 eliminat'e The Ron. Colonel ONSLOW: The the provision which alon~ safeguards all hon. member Sir Josf>ph Canuthers has parties I cannot comprehend. Because I said that the police are not fools, and take lip the position of supporting the that we must allow that they have, l.ill, I am twitted with not wanting any common-sense. It is also necessary to body to have drink. I am sure I have make allowaJ~ce for the ignorant and ne·.'r r tried to restrain anyone from [The Hon. Sir Joseph Carndhers. Liquor (Amendment) Bill. [21 Nov., 1922.] Liquor (Amendment) Bill. 3899 taking what he desires. I£ the amend The Hon. Sir JoSEPH CARRUTHERS : ment be agreed to the bill will, to my Do you want to keep ( 4) in? mind, be a bill without the kingbolt. As The Hon.. J. G. FARLEIGH: Yes, <>ne who respects the police, who look because this is a new clause which com after the law and order of our city, I prises a number of subclanses. consider that ii' the amendment is agreed to we cannot expect them to carry out The Ron. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: :their duties efficiently. Can you point out anything other than Amendment negatived. subclause (3) to which such subclause (4) W<>uld apply~ (38) (3) Any member of the police forcernay, The Hon. J. G. FARLEIGR: It without any warrant, stop and detain any applies to subclause ( 1) which deals with person seen coming on t of any licensed premises at any time when such premi>es should not be every person who carries away liquor 'Ihe Hon. J. F. COATES: Not being 'l'he Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: a lawyer I am not sure that I can in All tl.Jis clause says is that an applica terpret the amendment correctly, but it tion for that purp03e may be sent to the appears to me should a wine saloon pro licemee. At pres2nt there is not tha.t prietor be called upon under the bill to power. It does not apply to the owner l show cau.~e why his saloon should not be The Hon. J. F. CoATES: 'Vhy not dosed he alone would be notified of the give it to him 7 intention of the Licensing Court whereas The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: in the case of an hotel if a licensee is called Half l'ecent decision o£ the court, any person trust will be able to reconstruct the road capturing a wiH bird became its legal with concrete and wood blocks in Red owner, whether it was caught in the open fern, and concrete and asphalt ia other ,;casm1 or not. The bill repeals th:;t municipalities, ns far a,; Wilson-road, faulty section o£ th2 Principal Act, and Botany, for £150,000, and for £200,000 to substitutes a nc-;v section providing thitt the b:mndar;y-that is, right through all protected birds and animals until Botany. An amendment was inserted in killed or taken in accordance with the the Legislative AsEembly to provide that proYisions of the Act, shall be deemed to if the cost is less, then the Government be the property of the Crown, and also contribution is to be proportionately that a person shall not be prevented from abated, and if the cost is increased, the J~:eeping in confinement or in a domesti Government contribution is not in cated state any protected bird or animal. creased. It is a very good bill, and one The bill is practically the same as the which extends the power of local govern one which we previously passed and sent ment. I am sorry we have not a general to the Lower House. bill of this character in opel' a tion. Question resolved in the affirmative. Question resolved in the affirmative. Bill read a second time and passed Bill read a second time and passed through its remaining stages. through its remaining stages. BOTANY-ROAD TRUST CONSTITU TION BILL. DAVID MORRIS REVESTI~G BILL. Bill received fTom the Legislative Bill received from the Legislative Assembly and (on motion by the Hon. As~embly and (on motion by the Ron. Sir Sir Joseph Carruthers) read a first time. Joseph Carruthers)- read a first time. SECOKD READING. 8}~00:\'D RE.\DI?\G. The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS moved: moved: . That this bill be now read a second time. That this bill be now read a second tillle . He said: There are five municipalities He said: This bill deals with part of an through which the Botany-road runs area of 600 acres resuined in 1920 for Redfern, Alexandria, \Vaterloo, Mascot, soldier settlement. Action was taken to and Botany. The Botany-road is in a establish an irrigation farm there, and very bad state. It is a main arterial unfortunately a considerable sum of road, and upon it is carried a great deal money, I think about £15,000, was ex of very heavy traffic indeed, connected pended in putting a plant on the land with the secondary industries. Commit for irrigation purposes. It is very good tees of the councils met, but found that land close to the town of Penrith, on they could not come to an agreement the N epean River. It was found, how under the existin,_g law. Eventually a ever, to be unsuitable for the purpose, as scheme was devised whereby a trust wa,; the settlement would not carry the num constituted. I had a considerable hand ber of settlers which it was proposed to in this, because it was largely on my put on it. Included in the properties suggestion that some of the councils took resumed was one of 5n acres, owned the matter up. They approached me, and by David Morris, and in the sub the Commonwealth Bank agreed to give division and disposal of the land, it a loan of £200,000 or £150,000 to meet was decided that that area could not be the requirements of the trust. I think advantageously used in connection with the loan is for a period of fifteen years. the propoeed irrigation works. In view The Govel'Innent promised to pay half of the valuable structural improvements the sum in thirty half-yearly payments, on Jlvforris' property, it wo~1ld have been with inte.-est at 5n rror cent. This is a difficult to use it for irrigation purposes, cheaper b:ngain than 'vc carried out iu and it was decided to resell the property eonnection with tht~ n~couditioning of the to Morris, subject to the Crown retaining Parramatta-road. According to the re a right of em;ement through it for layinf!; ports of experts it is expected that the pipes for irrigation purpose;;, 1Ir. Pike~ 3902 Sydney Corporation (COUNCIL.] (Fish Markets) Bill. acting under instructions from :Mr. calculated that food will be sold in a Loughlin, the late Secretary for Lands damaged or deteriorated cpndition, the succeeded in settling the claim on con unhealthy surroundings lending them clition that the property should be re selves to that state of affairs. vested in Morris, and compensation In the interests of the public welfare paid to the extent of £250, together with a place like that ought not to continue his costs, as adjusted by the Crown Solici its existence. We did not care about tor. Provision was made to retain the forcing these people entirely out of busi easement, but that was subsequently ness, without giving them some chance abandoned, and the compensation was re to make good their expenditure. Time duced to £240. The scheme is to be was therefore given to the City Council abandoned; it is one of the failures of to negotiate and to buy this property, soldier settlement. The remainder of the adjoin~ng the up to date markets, which land will be disposed of. The Crown it owns. The City Council made an ar Solicitor advises that the only way the rangement to buy the property for land can be revested in Morris is by £15,000. It does not want the property. special Act of Parliament. The solicitors but having got it, and paid £15,000 for are pressing for settlement, and Morris it, the City Council made it contingent is entitled to have the settlement made. that it would not conclude the deal un As the matter is urgent, the bill is less it could get some security from the brought in to revest the land in Morris, agents and others whom it was buying and to make arrangements to complete out. It did not want these people to be the settlement. starting other markets, in some other Question resolved in the affirmative. place. Practically it is paying for the g·oodwill of the l)roperty, and in order to Bill read a second time and passed ~ffcct that it should have a protection for through its remaining stages. the money it ha3 spent, and actin.g, a.s a municipal council, in the interests of the SYDNEY CORPORATION (FISH citizens, it asks that this bill should be :MARKETS) BILL. passed. "C"nless it were passed it would Bill received from Legislative As not conclude the purchase, and if the sembly and (on motion by the Ron. Sir purchase were not concluded the citizens Joseph Carruthers) read a first time. would still be having the same unwhole some state of affairs going on, through SECOND READING. the existence of an ill-equipped and un The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS healthy market, dealing with part of the moved: food supply of the city of Sydney. That this bill be now read a second time. The bill enables the Municipality of He said: The facts of the case relating Sydney to purchase the site, and to to this bill are that the City Council has, keep proper accounts with regard to the at Redfern, a highly-organised and de purchasing, and it provides certain pro veloped property, the ::II1unicipal Fish tection for the }{unicipality of Sydney, Markets. Alongside of that property is within an area defined iu the bill. another place for selling fish, which has Originally it was proposed to make the been organised and carried on by iisher area the county of Cumberland, but men and fishermen's agents, but it is not some objection was raised to that, and well-equipped, and the Government de the area is defined now by a 3chedule partment has on several occasions had to of the bill. In consideration of the City call the .attention of the authorities to Council making the purchase, and carry its insanitary condition. Although it ing on a fish market at Redfern in an has been doing a considerable business, up to date style, and in order to encourage still the business has been don'"e under them to go on with that work .for the crude conditions, and the owners of the good of the metropolitan area, the Gov property, the ·fishermen and the agenu, ernment agreed that it would pass this do not seem to have had sufficient money bill, giving the City Council the protec to put their markets in good order. tion which it sought; that is to say, that The public are suffering, because it is competition from other markets should [The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers. Sydney Corporation [:H Nov., 1922.] (Fish Markets) BiU. 3903 not be permitted in the neighbourhood The Hon. N.J. BUZACOTT: Yes, to of these markets, or in the area which is sell fish by auction, wholesale. He is defined by the bill. absolutely debarred. It sa3'S: The Hon. N. J. BUZAOOTT: This No person shall sell fish by auction bill may have many good points, but I within the area defined in the said schedule except in a market established think we should have had the oppor by the council under this Act, or provided tunity to look into it. It gives the Syd and controlled by the council of a munici ney City Council power to establish fish pality or shire. markets anywhere within the area which It may be a good thing, but at the first is defined in tl1e. schedule. Take Parra glance it does not appear to me to be matta, fo,r example. Suppose the City so good. It is inexcusable that bills Council does not establish a fish market like this, which not only amend the Local at Parramatta, although it has power to Government Act, but which contain pro do so. I mention Parramatta because it -visions that really restrict the supply of is a distant suburb, and there is some foodstuffs to the community, should be reason for it. The City Council may not introduced here at the last moment. establish a fish market at Parramatta, The Ron. Colonel ON·SLOW: I would and yet no person can sell any fish by like to have further information on the· auction there, nothwithstanding the fact bill. It appears to me to be a bill to es that the City Comicil does not exercise tablish municipal trading. Clause 6 cer-. its right to establish markets. tainly establishes a monopoly in the fish. The lion. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: trade. In my opinion, we have already There is nothing to stop the Parramatta had a sufficient example of State trading. Council from establishing a fish market! 'vVe have had enough of that to prevent The Hon. N. J. BUZACOTT: Does us from going in for municipal trading not the schedule include Parramatta? which, after all, is the same kind of thing. The bill appears to establish a_ The l-Ion. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHE!lS : monopoly. Clause 6 states: It only takes in the area within a line No person shall sell fish. by auction that extends from Pennant Rills to within the area defined m the said Parramatta railway-station. That line schedule. goes through the eastern portion of Par An RoN. MEMBER: Except in a mat' ramatta, so that it leaves the other side ket! of the main road open, and the Parra The Ron. Colonel ONSLOW: Yes. It matta Council could establish fish mar may be all right, hut I am always sus kets there if it wished! picious of restrictions being placed upon The Hon. N. J. BUZACOTT: Perhaps trading, an::l I am doubly suspicious of I w::-.s unfortunate in refening to Parra any law which confers exclusive trading matta. I did not read the schedule, but priYile.ges on any public authority, be that is the fault of the Ministry for cause experience shows us that public< introducing it at this late hour. The bill authorities are essentially unfitted to, says that: conduct any trading or business enter- No person other than the original pr!se. They always end in loss and gen owner shall .sell fish by wholesale within erally in corruption. the area d-efined in the said schedule The Hon. J. RYAN:. Does the -hon. unless the fish has· previously been sold by member see that the same privilege is auction in one of the markets referred to extended to any shire or municipality in subsection (1) of this section. within the area? Take one of the municipalities within The Ron. Colonel ONSLOW: Quite the area defined in the schedule. The so, but the bill gives a monopoly in a City Council may not establish a fish defined area to a certain class of insti market there, yet no private individual tution. will be allowed to sell fish there by auc The Ron. N. J. BuzACOTT: A mono tion. poly which it is unable to carry out! The Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: The Ron. Colonel ONSLOW: Y €fl. To sell wholesale! It may be that there a•re certa-in abuses 3904 Sydney Corporation Bill. [COUNCIL.] Business of the Session. or malpractices, or something of the the municipality. It is not right that sort, in the fish-trading industry, but I the distribution of the food supply of the maintain that after all the principle of community should be left in the hands free competition and open markets is of all sorts of people, who may form what we should endeavour to establish, combinations to deal with it. I do not An Ho:'<. MEMBER: The markets are know that there is any better authority controlled! to assure a satisfactory supply of fish for The Ron. Colonel ONSLOW: The the people of Sydney than the :Municipal markets may be controlled, but I do Council of Sydney. I go so far as to say, not like exclusive control by State or although I do so with considerable rec municipal bodies. I do not want to fur luctance, that even a Nationalist Muni ther occupy the time of the House at this cipal Council of Sydney would see that late stage of the session, but I do think the fish supply was of a kind that would it is not a fair thing for the Government benefit the health of the community. I do to put before us a bill of this kind, to be not see why any hon. member should ob criticised and passed into law within the ject, as the bon. member Colonel Onslow few hours remaining between now and has done, to the municipality doing this the close of the session. This is the work. . In London, Glasgow, Carlisle, dasc; of bill on which I always look with and other cities the responsibility of grave suspicion. these things is left to the municipal The Ron. W. E. V. ROBSON: If this councils. The Government has acted were a bill to empower the City Council wisely i11 bringing in the bill, and the of Sydney to buy and sell fish there House should support it without hesita mi.ght be very strong objection to it, but tion. the measure simply gives power to the Question resolved in the affirmatiYe. municipal council, within a defined area, Bill read a second time and passe Bill, and possibly in connection with the the Voluntary Workers (Soldiers' Hold Bank of New Sputh Wales Bill. I do not ings) Act, 1917, being the lands included know whether we shall get the message in Crown grants volume 3212, folio 23, with regard to the Law lleform Bill, but and volume 3336, folio 11, respectively. I think it will be a great reflection on the On portion of the larger of these two Lcgislatme if the law reform measures areas the soldiers' garden village hHs b,:en arc not passed. I venture to suggest to established. The smaller area is at pre hon. members that they might \lSC the seJit unoccupied. But it is proposed to little influence they have at this last utilise it under the powers asked for in moment to get these things completed. the bill, for the erection of shops and There is no reason \vhy the whole com business premises in connection with the munity should suffer by having our legis soldiers' garden village. With the excep lation dealing with the every-day life of tion· of certain levelling of the land and the country, the sale of goods, and agen ballasting of roads carried out by the cies, left like a tangled skein. Public Works Department, the work of The Hon. J. F. CoATES: "There is no laying out the village and creeting the alteration of the law in any of them! homes has been carried out ·by or under the supervision uf the board of control o-£ The Ron. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS: the Voluntary Workers' Association of As I pointed out the only alteration of N(m South Wales, with the help of tbe law is to prevent the use of terms voluntary labour and funds subscribed by relating to Scotland which do not apply the general public. The association finds _here, and provisions which are absolutely that there is no prospect of its being able inapplicable to the state of affairs in to utilise the whole of the 72 acres 2 Australia. It is the first time I have roods 21! perches for the pmpose of known any difficulty to occur in connec erecting homes for disabled soldiers, and tion with consolidating bills. I suggest are agreeable to the surplus area being that you leave the chair, :Mr. President, given up. To meet this and other similar until the other measures come up. cases provision is made in the bill to [The President left the chair at 7.55 p.m. empower the Public Trustee to surrender The Ilouse nsumecl at 10.45 p.m.] to the Crown any lands included in any Crown grant made to him under the VOLUNTARY WOltKJ<~RS (SOLDIERS' Voluntary vVorkers (Soldiers' Holdings) HOLDINGS) AMENDMENT BILL. Act, 1917. There is no provision in the Bill received from the Legislative present Act for dealing with home sites .As;oemhly and (on motion by the Hon. other than by conveying the fee simple :E. H. Farrar) read a first time. thereof to disabled soldiers or the de pendants of deceased soldiers. This is SECOND READING. not in accordance with rthe wishes of the The Hon. E. H. FARRAR moved: Voluntary \Vorkers' Association or of the That this bill be now read a second time. general public, who have given their He said: This hill is necessary because of labour voluntarily and subscribed fund~ the successful work which has been done for erecting the homes within the sol in this State in the interests of returned diers' garden village at :M:atraville. It is soldiers by the Voluntary Workers' Asso desired by the association that the homes ciation, which collected money and built within that village shall not be alienated, many fine homes and formed the gard~n hut that the Public Trustee should be village at :M:atraville. The bill has been empowered only to let them to disabled prepared on the representation of the soldiers or dependents. The association Voluntary \Yorkers' Association of New :further desires that power be given to South Wales, and they are pressing for utilise a portion of the village land for its early introduction and passage. The the erection of a hall for the holding of main ·object of the measure is to make public meetings, entertainments, social "Provision for dealing with the two areas gatherings, &c., and also to set apart por of 72 acres 2 roods 21! perches at :M:atra tion of such lands for the purposes of ville, which have been granted to the public recreation and athletic sports. The Public Trustee under the provisions of bill makes provision to meet the wishes 3906 Special Adjotwnment. [COUNCIL.] Adjournment. of the association in regard to these session. I was hoping that the hon. matters. This voluntary body, which has member Mr. Kavanagh would have ex done this work and provided this very pressed these views, and if he will do so fine garden city at Matraville, is now I will sit down. desirous that its labours should be cul The Ron. E. J. KAVANAGH: Go on. You minated by a hall being provided to meet are quite all right! the comforts and convenience of the The Ron. R. W. CRUICKSHANK~ people who are settled there, and one of I think that the Labour members who the provisions of this bill is in regard to were introduced into this House before that hall. The bill was not opposed in the commencement of the last session are another place. I feel sure that hon. mem all more or less satisfied with the kindly bers will realise its laudable object, and feelings shown them by the representa will agree to the motion for the second tives of the capitalistic organisations, the reading. Employers' Federation, and other organi Question resolved in the affirmative. sations in this Chamber. \V e have no Bill read a second time and passed hostility towards those hon. gentlemen. l through its remaining stages. think I may fairly say that we have rather had our eyes opened to the kindli SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT. ness and spirit of good friendship shown Motion (by the Ron. E. H. FARRAR). to us by those members since we have agreed to: been members of the Legislative Conncil. That this House at its rising to-day do But that does not relax in any degree our adjourn until Wedn€sday next. hostility to the manifest influences of the ADJOURNMENT. Employers' Federation and the Single Purpose League in connection with all CI•OSB 0~' THE SESSION-SYDNEY WATER SUPPLY. legislation introduced here during this session of Parliament. I believe there is The Ron. E. H. FARRAR moved: a general consensus of opinion on the That this House do now adjourn. part of the democratic members of the He said: I desire on behalf of the leader House that there has been a deliberate of the Government here, the hon. member intention on the part of the Government Sir Joseph Carruthers, and myself, to ex during the session just closing to depre press our appreciation of the courtesy ex ciate the value of legislation brought in tended to us by all hon. members when by the previous Government. In that measures have been put before them. Sir respect, as far as legislation of the pre Joseph Carruthers and myself also wish sent Government has gone, we feel very to extend to hon. members our beat wishes much that it will be hurtful to the coun for a pleasant recess. Although it is try. I believe that every hon. member of some time to Christmas, we desire to the sixteen or eighteen members of the wish hon. members and the officers of Labonr party appointed to this House the House a very merry Christmas and just beforfl the commenC'ement of last a happy New Y car, and we hope they session expected they would be able tl) will all come back with renewed vigour fight for the principles of the party to to continue the work of Parliament next which they belonged. We have found year. t.hat nearly every Government measure The PRESIDENT : I may express, on put before the House has been an abro~ behalf of myself and the officers of the gation of the principles of the Chamber House, our very best thanks for the hon. itself. Bills passed during the regime of member's good wishes. the Labour Government have been The H0n. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: thrown out by this Chamber, showing I would like, on behalf of the members that there was no real sincerity on the of the Opposition in this Chamber, to part of the House itself regarding the express our thanks to the members of bills put before it. We are seriously the other side of the House for the con of opinion that this House does not sideration they have sho·wn us in our meet for the proper consideration of expression of rather extreme views on these bills, hut that it meets wit.h t},e many measures brought before us this deliberate intention of carrying out the . [The H on. E. H. Farrar. Adjournment. [~1 Nov., 1922.] :Adjournment. 3907 mandates of the Single Purpose League I have seen no bills brought before this and the Employers' Federation. That is Chamber of a constructive character, and shown by the measures that have been I think it is our duty. in this House to considered by hon. members of this record the fact, and members of the Chamber since the commencement of the Labour party should emphasise their session. Nearly every measure of impor pronounced abhorrence of the legislation tance put before the House has been a which has been introduced by the Gov measure to destroy the structure of the ernment. I have nothing but admiration Labour Government which preceded the for the manner in which the Govern present Government, and that Labour ment representatives here have introduced G.:;.-ermnent had a majority in the Lower that legislation, and the manner in which House. they have dealt with 'Us in regard to it, but The Ron. Colonel ONSLOW : Of o nc! as a democratic party we have a right The Ron. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: before we leave this Chamber to protest They had forty-five members, while the -strongly against the work done here. Every present Government has a party of forty bill brought before the House has been of members in the Legislative Assembly. I a retrog'l'ade character. The Government ask the hon. member if he believes that has set itself to work not to build up but in the representative or popular Chamber, to destroy. That is a bad and fatal thing: where the Government has a party of for the good government of any country only forty members, it has the right to or State, and as a Labour man I pro bring in such legislation. test against the Government closing this. The Ron. Dr. NASH: I rise to ·.·rder. setlsion at this time without achieving The hon. member has a ri:rht to address any material benefit for its constituents. the Ohair. ·- It brought down a programme of legis The Hon. R. W. CRUICKSHANK: I lation when this Parliament met, but it. do not think, since I came into this has brought none of those bills of any House, that I have adopted any attitude material importance before this House. other than that of respect for the Ohair, It has brought in only a number of de but I think it is our duty, before the structive measures to vitiate and destroy session closes, to refer to some of the the legislation brought in by the previous. work done during the session. That work Government. I, as a Labour member, re has been an infamous kind of work. sent most sincerely the calling together It has been a work of destruction. of any branch of Parliament for the de- · Colonel ONSLOW: I rise to order. I liberate purpose of destroying the work submit the hon. member is not in order of a Government that had a greater and in saying that the work of the Govern stronger mandate from the country than ment has been an infamous work. It this Government has. This Government is language rather unparliamentary came into power with a part~' of only stronger than is called for. forty members in a Legislative Assembly The PRESIDENT: I do not know that the of ninety members, and it has carried language of the hon. member was un by manipulation in the Lower House a parliamentary, but I think the hon. mem series of bins. Those bills have been ber }.fr. Cruickshank will see that we brought before this Chamber and. have want to part in harmony. been passed automatically. It is the The Ron. R. W. ORUIOI{'SHANK: I duty of every democrat to protest against quite recognise that, but while we desire the manner in which that legislation has to part in harmony it is due to the party been passed in this Chamber. I do not to which I belong that, before we leave desire at this late hour to delay the this Chamber for the recess, we should Chamber, but I do wish to protest most place on record the fact that this Gov strongly. I do not know whether bon. ernment has during- the session been members think that if they turn out the mainly occupied in the destruction of im lights on me it will delay my speech, portant and serious work done for the but if they do so, I shall speak for an good government of this country. The other two hours. I protest against the Government has mainly occupied itself rescission of all the proposals of which not in work of constructive legislation. our party was so :proud in the previow~ .3908 Adjournment. [OOUNCIL.] Adjournment. Parliament. It is a serious reflection The Hon. N. J. BUZACOTT: It is on this Chamber to think that during the not my forte to say complimentary last session Parliament passed these bills things, but I can join in the felicitations .after due deliberation and that during which have been uttered. I really rise this session most of them have been re for another purpose. History tells us pealed. It is one o£ the strongest argu that a certain .gentleman fiddled whilst ments I know of for the abolition of this Home was burning. To-day we have the Chamber. It shows that this Chamber spectacle of Parliament going into recess is more or less a joke in the eyes of the and Sydney-and when I say Sydney I community w1wn bills passed during one speak of it in the larger sense-facing a .session of the Council can be i.gnomin crisis in connection with its water supply. iously repealed in the next. So far as Parliament is COllcerned, we Tho Hon. E. J. KAVANAGH: As an have done nothing up to the present to Bx-}.iinister and representative of the give any relief during the next fiye ;years. Government in this House I .desire to With the increase of population and in indorse what has been said by the Minis dustries matters \Yill become worse after ter by way of appreciation of your con this ;year. I have read in the newspapers .duct of the business of the House, Ur. that a select committee has been ap President, and of the work hon. members pointed to inquire into and report upon l:tave done in regard to the legislation this matter. If the select committee whch has been passed. I join with the reports in regard to something beneficial, }iinister in his appreciation of the of will Executive sanction be given to some ficers of the House, whose services have body to carry that out? If some measure at all times been at our disposal. No of relief could be got to tide us over the matter what our requirements may have next five years, something should be done .been the officers of the House have ren to bring about that relief before next dered us every assistance. I also wish to summer. If it is possible for the Gov express my appreciation of the manner in ernment, by Executive sanction, to have which the Hansm·d staff have reported our these works carried out, it could after speechEs, and I extend a word of praise wards pass a validating bill. I am not up to the press. Although the reports in against the Metropolitan Board of Water the daily newspapers of the proceedings Supply and Sewerage, nor am I suggest o.f this House are meagre it is only fair ing that it should be reconstituted. I to say that there has been no misrepre am pleased to see that an expert com ;sentation of what has been said. I join mittee has been appointed. If the Gov with the Minister in wishing you, 1/Ir. ernment would give some assurance, it President, hon. mem bem, the officers of would allay the unrest which exists the H ousc, the members of the Hansard amongst the industries of the community, £taff and the press the compliments of by leading them to believe that some the season. thing will be done. It is a matter upon The Hon. Dr. NASH: As a private which the Government might very well member I join with the hon. member give some assurance, and I am satisfied :Yir. Kavanagh and the Minister in ex that 'both Houses of this Parliament ')_3ressing at the end of the session my would be prepared to ratify any action appreciation of the assistance which has it might tr.ke. been accorded us by you, Mr. President, The Hon. F. H. BRYANT: In reply by the officers of the House, by Hansard, to some of the observations of the hon. and those attending to our comfort in member who has just spoken, I am in a this establishment. Personally I am ex position to say that the Metropolitan tremely obli.ged, and I think I can speak Board of Water Supply and Sewerage is 'for every member of the House. I hope facing this difficulty as it has faced it for that we shall all meet again after the from fourteen to twenty ;years. It is facing recesG, that all will spend a most enjoy it in a manner in which no other body able Christmas and a happy New Year, operating the great activities of govern and be in as good a condition to carry ment could confront it. The war has .on the work of the country during the left us in a very grave position in regard ~next session as they are now. to finance. I wish hon. members to take [The H on. R. W. Cruickshank. Adjournment. [21 Nov., 1922.) Adjournment. 39(Y.) particular notice of the correct position Sewerage is such that it is not thoroughly which ought to be put before the people, understood by those who presume to edu tmd if it were put before the people I cate the public mind in regard to it. We honestly believe that they are genuine have to pay every penny of our revenue· enough to realise that we should each which is taken over the counter into the assist to bear the other's burden, and so bank for the Treasury. In return we have· help to overcome the difficulty which con to go cap in hand to the Government with fronts us all, and for which no section cur estimates. The present Secretary fo1~ is more to blame than another. It was Public \Vorks, Mr. Ball, has generously stated in the press yesterday that the come forward and assisted us as far as Colonial Treasurer is confronted with he can. The board is not a constructing: difficulties of finance, and that he could authority. \Ve are an administrative· do with £10,000,000 for railways and body. The Public Works Department water supply works. That is the position carries out our great works. Any work that has existed every year since the that is estimated to cost over £20,000 has: war, and for some ;years before that. Early to be referred to the Public \Vorks Com in 1916 the hon. member Sir Thomas mittee and inquired into by that .body_ Hughes drew the attention of this House I shall quote from my own evidence· to the fact that this question was u:rged before the Public \Vorks Committee at fourteen years ago by a committee of ·the inquiry respecting the construction of ,,·hich he was a member. In 1915 the the proposed high-pressure tunnel to works programme of the !1:etropolitan amplify the water supply system of Board of Water Supply and Se,vcrage Sydney and environs. In answer toques-· included eo;timates for a pressure tunnel, t:ons put to me by the chairman, I sai& ·which at that time wo~uld have cost that my object in going before the com £800,000. Now it will cost £1,400,000. Had mittee was to stress the absolute necessity the money been available in 1915, and of proceeding with the construction of parliamentary sanction obtained for this the new pipe line from Potts Hill to· necessary work, it would now have been Alexandria. in commis~io-;.1. The Ron. J. M. DoDD: When was that? There is no ineptitude on the part of The Hon. F. H. BRYANT: In 1921. the board, and I resent the suggestion In the committee's report on the proposed~ on the floor of this House. The press amplification of the water supply system· should be in touch with these facts if it of Sydney and environs it is stated, inter is not, for it has had ample opportunity alia·: at the meetings of the board and on the The committee feel that they cannot too floor of this Houw and in the Public strongly urge the necessity for proceeding: \Vorks Co:mmittee, where evidence has without delay with . the amplification been given. The Public Works Committee o:cheme and the schemes already in han([ has endeavoured to arrest the attention for the augmentation of the supply; untl in this connedion they draw attention of Parliament and the people, and from to the evidence of the Chief E.ngineerr 1016 each successive Government has Metropolitan Board of Water Supply and been confronted with the problem of the Sewerage, Mr. J. S. Purvis: -"\Ye are" stringency of the money market. IV e very hard pressed, particularly during. the warm months of the"year. So nee:eo-· ha>e asked for £1,600,000. \Ve have beeu sary is this work and so strongly would' in consultation with the Colonial Trea I urge it., that I wonld ask when il; is surer, and he has said you cannot get started there should h~ a continuous pro-· that amount by £500,000 or £600,000 .. cess of construction in order to fii1islr Then our programme for that year has to within the prescribed period. I suggest that the work is of such an urgent nature be cut down by one-half. Hon. members that is should be the first call on the must see the disabilities which concern loan funds available." a body of mel1 such as the \Vater and The committee passed the following reso-· Sewerage Board. The circumstances rul lution:- ing the conditions of the money market That in the opinion of the committee· rule the amount of new work undertaken it is expedient the proposed scheme for by the board. The constitution of the the amplification of the water supply· 1\Ietropolitan Board of Water Supply and system of Sydney and its environs, as 3910 Questions and Answers. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions and Answe~s. referred to them by the J_,egislative cost of the Craven and Gloucester State Assembly, be carried out; and that it be sawmills, including the cost of resump regarded as a matter of urgency. tion of forest lands from Allen Tavlor I stated in evidence before the commit & Co., Limited, also including cost of tee that it would take a water famine construction of tramway 1 (2) \Vhat was similar to the one we had passed through the total revenue received from these mills before I gave evidence to arouse the for year ending June, 19221 (3) What people of Sydney and those responsible was the total expenditure, iucluding in for their welfare to the urgency of carry terest on capital, cost of resumed forest ing out this great work. We have been land, and tramway, for year ending June, knocking at the door of the department. 19221 ( 4) Did be sanction the opening We have sounded a note of warning. We of State tim her-yards at Newcastle in con have done all we can. We cannot go a la nection with these mills 1 (5) Is it a fact Charlie Chaplin down to the Public that contracts have been taken below the Works Department with an axe. cost of production? (G) Is it his inten The Hon. E. H. F .ARRAR in reply: tion to cont,inue this State enterprise, or In reply to the question asked by the hon. does he intend to dispose of these milh'l member 1\fr. Buzacott, all I can say is at the first opportunity 1 that as soon as the crisis arose the Secre .Ansu:er,-(1) £66,917 13s. lld., in tary for Public Works moved expedi" cluding £23,605 Is. 3d. cost of con tiously. The Government will act in a struction of tramway. The forest lands :similar manner in connection with any referred to were not resumed by the State report that comes before it, and will take sawmills. (2 and 3) 'l'he bon. member advantage of every opportunity to see will be able to obtain all the information that the people of this city are not de he desires from the report of the Auditor· prived of a supply of water any longer General when laid on the table of the than can be avoided. House. (4) No. The step was taken Question resolved in the affirmative. under the pre~·iousGovermmnt. (5) No. House adjourned at 11.25 p.m. (6) Inquiries will be made during the recess as to the position of this industrial undertaking with a view to determining what subsequent action should be taken. JLrgislatil.Jc \a.5.5tmblJI. Tuesday, 21 November, 1922. NARROW-GAUGE LIGHT RAILWAY LINES. Mr. J. R. LEE asked the MINISTER l'rinted Questions and Answer•-Pe!ition-Milk Supply FOR RAILWAYS,-(1) Is it a fact that the Select Committee--Fin,t Readin.~.r.-3-Public Sen·ice (Amendment) Bill-Questions without Notice-rer· Railway Commissioners are opposed to sonal Explanation-Francis Bruce Mitchell-lJnder cliffe to For