A group interview with Andy Wilson, founder and CEO of Duck Tours and entrepreneur of the year

Authors: Jennifer K. Hartwell, William R. Torbert

Persistent link: http://hdl.handle.net/2345/4247

This work is posted on eScholarship@BC, Boston College University Libraries.

Published in Journal of Management Inquiry, vol. 8, no. 2, pp. 183-190, June 1999

Use of this resource is governed by the terms and conditions of the Creative Commons "Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States" (http:// creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/us/) •• • MEET THE PERSON

A Group Interview With Andy Wilson, Founder and CEO of and Massachusetts Entrepreneur of the Year

JENNIFER I<. HARlWELL WILLIAM R. TORBERT Boston College

· he following is a lightly edited interviewbe­ aim is to generate a mutual, developmental, ecologi­ tween the participants of a Boston College cal, and social alchemy (Abram, 1997; Hawken, 1993; T Ph.D. consultingseminarand Andy Wilson, Reason, 1994; Spretnak, 1997; Torbert, 1991, 1997a, founder and CEO of Boston Duck Tours, which since 1997b) in eachcurrentmeeting thatgraduallyenables 1994 has provided narratedhistoric tours ofBoston in the development of transformational visioning, authentic World War IT amphibious vehicles that strategizing, performing, and assessing in more and travel on l~d and water. Atthe time ofthe interview, more teams and subsystems of an organization, as April 1997, Andy was considering opening nine new well as at the organization's interorganizational and Duck Tour sites around the country. Two months environmental interfaces. In addition to the reading later, President Clinton feted the "Entrepreneurs of and the in-eIass interpersonal exercises, class partici­ the Year" from each ofthe 50 states, withAndyrepre­ pantsengageinsoul-searchingautobiographicalwrit­ senting Massachusetts. ing (Torbert &: Fisher, 1992) and in organizational The consulting seminar focuses on personal and interventions.! group developmental theory and on how develop­ For the class members, the interview with Andy mental theory can be applied to organizations (e.g., constituted an opportunity to practice (a) interview­ readings include Argyris, 1994; Barrett &: Cooper­ ing an executive; (b) creating a mutual, transforma­ rider, 1990; Brown &: Isaacs, 1996-1997; Erikson, 1969; tional environment with a stranger; (c) clinically ap­ Fisher & Torbert, 1995; Harrison, 1995). Every minute plying developmental theory in real time (as will be of class time is regarded as inviting the consulting discussed in the analytical article following this inter­ presence, awareness, and practice ofeach participant, view); and (d) experimenting with one's own pattern no matter what the particular exercise (about 400/0 of ofinquiryandself-disclosure,support,andconfronta­ each class session is taped, transcribed, analyzed, and tion. Prior to the interview, there was no plan about "fed back" by participants on a rotating basis to the whoshouldsaywhat orwhen. You, the reader, are in­ rest of the dass, as was this interview). The seminar's vited to asses~ in what senses the class succeeded or

JOURNAL OF MANAGEMENTINQUIRY, VoL 8 No.2, June 1999 183-190 @ 1999 Sage Publications, Inc. 183 184 JOURNAL OF MANAGEMENT INQUIRY / June 1999

did not succeed in its intent (and to inquire into the slow and steady and k~p on going versus being data, theory, and assumptions that underlie your the hare. I think that's what you're saying about assessment). somebodywho'sona roll. Theysitbackandlivethe Andy volunteered to be interviewed in part in the highlife andthinkthey'reinvincible. I don'tbelieve hope of receiving useful feedback as he navigates that I'm invincible. I say inbusiness you're only as through a difficult personal and professional transi­ goodasyouareatthemoment.AndI've trulycome tion. He was intrigued by the environment of honest to believe that. seH-reflection that a close friend, who was a class I thinksecondarilywhyI'mveryreflective is that member, had been mentioning during the prior 2 my business is only in Boston right now, and I'm months. We think you will agree that what gradually looking to expand worldwide. And it's a major life emerges through the challenging questions that the commitment, in terms of looking at major transi­ class participants ask ofAndy, as well as through the tions. You know, I've worked the last 4 years to challengingquestionsheaskshimseH,isa portraitofa buildthisbusinessanddidn'thavea life. Oneofmy transformational leaderwhosecharismaderivesfrom goalsis tohavea life, andallofa suddenI'msaying, a willingness toface hisowntransformationalissues.2 "OK, I have one of these operations, and now I'm growingitfrom one to maybe 20 or30 worldwide." Andlookingatthe travel,itallgoesagainstmyper­ Bill (the professor): Andy, welcome. Thanks a lot for sonal goal. Somehow or other looking for bal­ being with us. We'llhave some questioningbyour I'm ance, andI'mlookingfor a certainculture, whichis class members,and I'll sitbackand nulthe tape re­ so important. It's been so important to the success corder here and pay attention to the interviewers ofourcompany. How canI spread thatculture and and see how they are doing. Hopefully I won't cre­ maintain it, you know, when it's even difficult ate too intimidatinga situationfor them, and hope­ maintaining it locally? fully we won't create too intimidating a situation Ben: So whywould you expand? H you're looking for for you, Andy, though I guess you have a lot ofex­ balance and looking to limit your travel and all perience with crowds! thosekindsofthings,whatwouldbetheimpetusto Jennifer: I want to makea recommendationthatwe,as get you to think about expanding? a class, stop if wefeel like we'regoingonthe wrong Andy: Well, predominantly because my company's tangent and discuss that outwardly. met with such wild success, and it's a concept that Ben: Well, as the only guy who voted against this ses­ cangrow. HIdon'tgrowit,somebodyelsewill, and sion, I'llstart! (Laughter.) I'mgladyou'rehere, and they won't do it as well as I can. H I don't grow it, I guess yourcompany's sort ofona roll. Myexperi­ what I have going on in Boston will probably be ence working withexecutives is thatoftentimesthe taken away. Right now in this industry I'm the hardest time to get them to be reflective is when front-runner. I mean, there's absolutelyno doubt. I things are going right. When things are going know thatifI juststop,people are going topassme wrong, they see their own mortality in their job. by. Andit'snotsomuchthatI mind peoplepassing That's the time when people have a tendency to meby, it's thatinbusiness youneed tostayin a p~ say, "Now I've got to really think about what hap­ sition of strength. pened and reflect aboutwhatI did." But,you know, Ben: Yeah. Standing still is not going to increase your when they askedTedWilliams whyhe practiced so advantage, right? hard since he already was such a great hitter, he used to say, "Ifyou don't know why things are go­ Andy: Exactly. ing well, you'll never know why things are going Vivian: So, youronlychoiceistogoforward and toex­ wrong when your batting goes South." In your pand or to basically drop out of the business? situation, giventhatthingsaregoingpositivelyand Andy: Well, notdrop out,butI have anexclusivefran­ they seem to be on a roll, why would this be a time chise in Boston rightnow, inessence, and as I grow for you, personally, to reflect? this, I think that I can retain exclusivity. H I don't Andy: I think for two reasons. The first reason is I grow it, my conjecture is that somebody else will overanalyze everything, which is my strong point comein and try to do the same thing in Boston. But and my weak point. I use the tortoise and the hare ifI grow the business, keep myeye on the ball, that story. I want to stay the tortoise. In other words, will continue to give me, in essence, political Hartwell, Torbert / INTERVIEW WITH ANDY WILSON 185

strengthinBoston,soIcansay, IIHey, I'mthebestin was building systems, I was going down to Wall theworldatwhatI'mdoing."Andit'sa veryhighly Street-itwas amazing. But after a few more years, regulated business, so it's part of my strategy to I finally went to them and said, look, ifI'm goingto maintainwhat I have here. It's anoddbusiness. It's continue to bringinnewbusiness, and thatwasmy highly government regulated and, as in any poli­ goal, then I want to have more of a direct correla­ tics, it helps to come from a position of strength. tion between what I produce versus what I earn. I Jennifer: Haveyou seengoingforward andgrowingit went to them and I said, "If you don't want to do as fulfilling your dreams? that, then you don't want me." And they said, "We're not going to do it." And I said, "Fine." Andy: Ub, I'm still striving for that answer. And I So inAprilof1992 I turnedinmy6-monthnotice. don't have an answer to it yet, quite honestly. I've I hiredmyreplacement,andI quitinAugustof1992 been in a relationship 15 years, and it had a lot of with about $50,000 in the bank. At the time, Bill problems with me traveling a lot. You know, I'm Clinton was runningfor president, andhe was tak­ trying to resolve that all right now, and it-it kind inga bustripacross thecountry,campaigning.And of goes against the grain of the whole thing. They I said, "This looks like a good idea." I'm from the don't seem to mesh real well right now, and that's Midwest,andI boughta 90-dayGreyhoundpass reallypartofthe whole issue-howI getthatmesh. with my frequent flyer miles from traveling with You know, I love to traveL I mean I am traveling. the Boston Company. I'm working onstarting others of these things else­ . My mom had cancer at the time, and I stopped where, and it's really a rush. I'll tell ya! When you and spent3 weeks with her. I had worked my way land a deal or whatever, that's like critical, it's a through school as a deputy sheriff in Lawrence, rush, and I'm enjoying that part of it. Kansas, where I went to Kansas University. I went But then when you getback to the hotel room at to visit the then-sheriff, who was somebody I'd night and you're sitting there looking for some­ known. I also went to go see an aunt in Tennessee, thing to do, there's just something that I don't per­ outside of Memphis. I had always liked her, and I sonally enjoy about that. And so I'm working hadn'tseenherfor a longtime-18years. I wasjust through that issue. And part of it is I've got my rekindling a lot ofimportant relationships and re­ other half involved, who works in the business connecting with things that had been good in my right now. As I open these things and spend let's life. I don't know if I knew that at the time. I was say 2 or 3 or 4 months predominantly in that city, searchingfor somethingbuthadnoideawhatI was I'm hoping that my other half can go with me and searching for. When I left corporate America, the act:ually assist and that way mylife can continue to last thing I thought about was starting my own . go on. That's one ofthe answers. Butin the interim, business. My goal was to rescue my relations4ip, a lotofpeople are wantingme to consult themnow. which is whatI didn'tend up doing, an~ also to try I can be traveling all the time right now, ifI allow to find some truth. myself. So, it'sananswerthatI'mtryingtodevelop. So I pulled in to Memphis on the way to my Ming: I think I may be the only one that doesn't know aunt's at5:30 inthemoming. I'dbeenon thebusall exactly what you are doing. Please give me a brief night,andI stumbledacross thestreettoa hotel, got history of your business-when you started and a shower and a couple hours of shut-eye. Then I why. opened up the drapes and looked out, and there Andy: OK. Well, in 1986 I joined the Boston Company. was a sightseeing tour using a World Warn am­ I worked there for 7 years, and it was during the phibious truck known as a DuckTour. So I took the go-go years of the financial expansions. They used tour, and I thought, "lhis is real interesting." And I to say, "Every year's worth of experience there is kept the brochure. like getting5 years ofmanagerialexperience.II And I came back to Boston and I asked myself the looking back, that was true: dog years! But I was question, "Why is Boston called the Birthplace of able to start two businesses from scratch while I Freedom?" Nobody could ever define that to me, was working there. I had the resources of the com­ and certainly existing sightseeing tours couldn't. I pany,and itwasprettymucha supportiveenviron­ was living then ona boatin the harbor, as I had for ment. I was30 atthe time. Thenall ofa suddenIhad 10 years. I have a little rubber dingy that I would a chance to really manage people for the first time. I take people up the Charles River and show views 186 JOURNAL OF MANAGEMENT INQUIRY / June 1999

from the Charles. I would see these people 2 years to us breaking up, or at least separating. And then, later, and they'd spend hall an hour going off on despite the people who said my idea would fail, that wonderful little trip with me and looking at once I got it up and running, people started lining this incredible skyline view. After I got back from upat6:30 inthemoming.Weweresellingoutvirtu­ Memphis I remember one day seeing 10 trolleys ally 4 hours after we OPened up and turned away packed with people, and it hit me like a lightning morepeoplethan wecarried. Peoplesaid,"Itwon't bolt: UYou know, this DuckTours ideawould work last." Well, that public demand continues to go on. very well in Boston." But because I had to work so hard I did lose a con­ That took me down a path of 2 years of·going cept of myself, if that makes sense. through a hundred halls of government, raising Jennifer: And is that something that you're still money, andbasicallybeingtold I wasnuts. I did re­ struggling with, with this new choice? I mean; it search and found out the original Boston tourcom­ soundslikeyou'reina similardecision-makingpro­ pany had been in business for 40 years, was cess now. carrying a quarter of a million people a year in a market that's very short in terms of their season, Andy: Well, but I need to do it differently this time. I and thenwhichhadspread25 yearsagoto Branson, did it on a shoestring before, and, you know, I'm Missouri, and Hot Springs, Arkansas. This made not willing to do it the same way I did it the first mefeel verysecureasa businessstart-uprisk. After time around. I want to get people in to assist me. I all, hall the Fortune 500 companies in business ~ mean, there isn't anything I haven't done to start 1980 weren't in business in 1990. So I brought it to this business and to keep it running. For example, Boston, and last year we were the largest sightsee­ we had an old man who couldn'thold his bladder, ing tour in Boston. We carried a quarter million andI'mtheonecleaningupafterhim. I installed the people, grossed three and a half million dollars, land wiring. I was a bookkeeper up until recently. and netted three quarters of a million dollars on I've physicallyworked onthe ducks, eventhoughI capitalofaboutoneanda quarter. Twenty-five per­ have four mechanics. I've gotten very in­ cent of our profits were paid out in bonuses to em­ volved-the list goes onand on. And itallowedme ployees. Ten percent of our profits were paid out to get where I am today. f~r cleaning up the Charles. I had to become very But the whole issue is that I enjoy thecreative as­ political, andit's ledme intoa platformofmaking a pects ofit. I justgotbackfrom Chicago-I'm work­ difference in the world, which is important to me. ing on opening in Chicago-and in 2 days I accomplished more than I had accomplished in a Jennifer: Sometimes when I tell stories about my own life, I try to rememberall the good, and itmakes me yearormore inBoston. By theend of those2 days,I feel good about my life. When you're telling that wasphysicallyshakingwithexcitement. Itwasfun. story, are there certain parts of it that are not so I likebusiness,andmydad wasextremelypassion­ good?I'mnottalking aboutjustthebusiness,butas ate the same way-not about making money but far as the personal side ofyour life throughout that about the excitement of accomplishing things. time thatmaybesomethingthatyoufeel is relevant There are a lot of negatives-it's been exhausting, to your transition now. it's been disparaging. But I'm a dreamer, and it hardened me up a little bit to know that I can over­ Andy: Urn, well, from a business standpoint, I think come any odds and do anything. it's hard to separate the two because it becomes, you know, so intertwined, which is part of the Tess: When you originally talked about leaving the problem of having a personal life. When I left the Boston Company, you talked about presenting Boston Company, I was very despondent about the them with some alternatives. I took away that you world for a variety of reasons. And it was a very left because you were working too hard and not negative experience to go through government. I getting paidenough, and thatwas why you left. So was despondentaboutmypersonal life. AndI said, now you're talking about despair and your rela­ "Let's just leave Boston and go away." Then I be­ tionshipandsearchingfor the truth, andI waswon­ cameengrossed in this enterprise, literally. I got up deringifyoucan shed a little light on the truth that in the morning and worked all day long. U you can you thought you were looking for and where the imagine living on a 26-foot sailboat with another despair was coming from, where yourpersonal life person, trying to start a businesS-it ultimately led fits into this. Hartwell, Torbert / INTERVIEW WITH ANDY WILSON 187

Andy: Well, are you interested in the business side? never been done before in the mutual fund indus- Tess: No, I'm more interested in you. try. Andy: Well, onthebusinessside,oneofthethings that Tess: You said that you've been given a platform for I use quite often now as a line is, in the 1980s you your politics. What's your message? have Gordon Gecco from Wall Street who says, Andy: Well, I go back to freedom. I strive to feel good "Greedis good." And ifyou remember the story of about myself, and there are a lot of people in the whathe did, he was goingoutand leveragingbuy­ world that want to take that away from ~e. I don't outs, and then he'd go and write the company's want anybody telling me what to do in terms of pension funds to pay it off and ultimately leave how to lead my life, as long as I'm not taking any­ these people without pensions. I feel very strongly bodyelse's rightawayfrom them. We seemto have that greed isn'tgood. ButI pickedup thefront page a verystrongdifficulty inthis countryunderstand­ of the Wall Street Journal one day, and it was just ing what that's all about. filled with despair: baby suppliers ofinfant formu­ Oneoftheotherthings I reconnected withwhenI las convicted, and Sears Auto Centers indicted for wentback that time to visitmymother w~mylate overcharging customers, and then aircraft parts grandfather. I knew my grandfather had written a manufacturers convicted for defective parts. After book, but I never knew my grandfather. It was a reading that I said, "I've had it." bookthat was publishedin1943 called New Schools for a New Culture. He was a progressive educator, Jennifer: That's the day that you quit? and the whole concept was about teaching demo­ Andy: No, thatwas thedaythatI startedlookingatit. I cratic principles in the school. And this book is went outand started talking aboutitto people, and filled with this freedom concept. The first para­ of course, people didn't share my views because graph talks about basic worth and dignity ofevery most people don't want to look-they just shut human being. Then I got these World War nvehi­ themselves off to a lot of it. There's nothing wrong cles and I started to ask myself, "Well, what was with making a lot of money, but it doesn't have to World Warn all about?" I started looking at the ex­ be at theexpense of others. Freedomis allaboutliv­ termination of the Jews and the gays and the gyp­ ing your life without taking anything away from sies and theatrocities morerecentlyin Bosnia. It's a someone else. basic debate ofhuman dignity and the right to per­ Jennifer: Howdoyou thinkyoubecamesomuchmore sonal religious freedom. I have the right to believe able tosee the realityas youmightcallitwhileother what I want to believe. And I have the right, from people couldn't? Have you always been like that? myperspective, toend mylife ifI'm terminallyill. I Have you always been able to see what others have the right-to use the extreme example of the couldn't? Heaven's Gate cult-to castrate myselfifI want to, you know? Andy: I think I have, even in stupid things. I look at clothing: Something Ibuy today that I like becomes Vivian: Andy, I feel as if youhave such an interesting the rage 2 years later. I do see things that otherpeo­ life and there's so much to talk about and so much ple don't see, I don't know why. It's somethingthat to share, but I'm afraid that the hour is going to I would like to figure out how to capitalize on bet­ come to a close, and we'renot goingto hitonsome­ ter, which in several instances I did with the Duck thing in particular that you want to hit on. Tours. Now if somebody tells me I'm crazy, I know Andy: Well, I didn't come with a laundry list, but the I have a good idea. thing I struggle with is what everybody struggles One of the senior executives at the Boston Com­ with: to feel good about themselves. I've kind of pany knew that I could get things done that other been going through a question, you know, is there people couldn't-I saw things that other people life after death? I've come to learn recently that the didn't see. Well, at one point his ass was on the"line Jewish faith basically doesn't believe in life after to get something accomplished, and he came to me d~ath, and the Christian faith does, obviously. and said, "Will you do this project for me?" He WhenI'mfinally atthatmomentthatI'mdying,the promised, "Ifyoudo this for me, Iwill promote you one regret I don't want to have is that I spent any and makeyou a seniorinNew York." SoI pulled off time feeling bad about myself. That's where my this project with absolute clarity and success. It'd balance comes from, but the question is, how do I 188 JOURNAL OF MANAGEMENT INQUIRY / June 1999

moveforward? It'sa wholequestion of, "OK,I can't things ortrying to pull you down. Maybe it's mak­ solve all the world's problems. The world's not go-' ing you that much more willing to put everything ingto bewhatI wantittobe, eitherina macrosense on the line to show them that they're wrong. ora microsense, by the time I die." I want to see the Andy: Well, itwas never that. The one womaningov­ world change, whetherI'm the catalystfor itornot, ernment who really held this thing up influenced and I want to continue to feel good about myself. I the business tobe the way it is today. Part ofitwas don'twanttoendupinslavery. I likelivingas a free negativity,butpartofitwasjustgovernmentdoing person, and I want those free choices, and I don't their job. We would literally butt heads, and ulti­ want anybody to take them away from me. But in matelyIhadtogetthegovernortosteponher,basi­ starting this business, it's been a struggle. Now I'm cally. And it was painful for her. So now I've a success. Now people want to take it away from reconciled withher. Partofitis,again,listeningand me. Before all theywanted todoisjustsay, "You're being open-minded enough. Ultimately, I had to nuts, and so we're going to keep you down." listen to them and address all their concerns and It just seems like there's always this constant adjustmywayofthinking. Goingtothebasicworth pressure. And so that really kind of summarizes and dignityofeveryhumanbeing-everybodyhas where I'm atin my life. I want a good life. I wantto a shred of truth. And what is reality? What is the feel good about myseH. I want to be successful. I truth,andwheredoesitallcomefrom? I don'thave wanttobalancethatallout.AndI wanttobeableto all the answers on that. But I do believe there's an influencetheworldandstillmeetmyobligations to ultimate truth. myself, myinvestors,myemployees,andmylover, Ming: How many employees do you currently have? andthat's where I think I have the biggest struggle inmy life, you know, finding a balance. And that's Andy: I have SO. really the biggest issue where I'm at right Ming: Fifty? Do you think they share the dream you now-finding that balance, to make it all work. have? Bill: You've almost quoted Gandhi's phrase, "You Andy: Over time, the answer is yes. We're reopening must become the change you wish to see in the for theseason,andI justgavea talkonthesubjectof world." You've almost said that exact thing here in values. I opened up talkingaboutmygrandfather's the last several minutes. book. I talked about the basic worth and dignity of Andy: Well, the worstpartinbeinganidealist, beinga every human being and the fact that I'm a human dreamer, is it's hard to be what you idealize your­ being too. And just because I'm the owner, I'm the ·self to be. And I fear that. I fear that in the percep­ boss, don't think that I have all the answers. And tions ofother people as I expound my views to the that ~e need to work together, and I defined what people I work with. I'm trying to strive to the point the common core values were that I thought were where I can say these things without being a Puri­ important. I triedtodefinethose, andthetermthatI tan or a hypocrite. came up with that we should especially work to­ gethertoavoid was Ilrandomactsofviolence."Peo­ Bill: "Everything you say may be held against you." ple commit random acts of violence. You know, Andy: Right! I'm very strongaboutmy views, and ifI you walkdown thestreetandyou getclubbed over sayI have one fear inmylife, it'sthatit'simpossible the head, and you're just walking down the street. to achieve the standard that I've set for myself or Well, people do that to you in the workplace, in theworld,ifthatmakesanysense. Themostimpor­ your private life, just by the things they do to you tant thing thatI'm trying tolearnis tolistento other thatare nonphysical. It'sbeen done to me since I've people and let other people influence my life. The started this company as the employer, random acts single most important thing that I learned in start­ of violence committed against me by employees. ing this business is the ability to listen and the abil­ I talked aboutsexualharassment,andI said,"My ity to be influenced by another person. wholeissueis let's take thesex outofitand let'sjust Jennifer: Well, the interesting thing is that you have talk about harassment." For the first time I've tried found that probably 900/0 of the people ~ not in a concise way to get involved with all my em­ worth listening to. I mean, they're saying negative ployees and have training and define this world Hartwell, Torbert / INTERVIEW WITH ANDY WILSON 189

that I'm trying to create. Even though we'll never Andy: Yeah. It's not so much that I'm fearful of what believe the same thing, because our values are like they're goingto thinkofme;I justwanttofeel good fingerprints, at least we need to define common about myself. I've been a hypocrite and probably values. And if we all can't live in an acceptable still amoncertainthings. Infact, I know I'ma hypo­ boundary, then try and let the group come up with crite in things. The environment concerns me, and what that boundary should be. every time I go outand get a cup of coffee and I'm Jennifer: When you say "values are like fingerprints," throwinga cup away,I'msaying "Whatthehellam are you suggesting that values can't be changed? I doing?" Andy:No, it'sjustthateverybody'svaluesareunique, and they'll always be unique. But you can sort fin­ AUTHORS' POSTSCRIPT gerprints into categories. With my employees, what I'm trying to getis that, "You know, I may be In thehope oftakingsteps toward aligninghisper­ wrong." Andso, "Understandthatdebateis good." sonal and professional directions and desires, Andy I support debate because out ofdebate comes new volunteered to participate in this interview. He in­ forms of thought or new perspectives for people. vited the seminar members to share in his struggle And so the whole issue is how you respect some­ withsomeofthemorechallengingincongruitiesinhis body else's views to encourage debate. life and approached the interview as a frame­ One of the examples I use is that in college, al­ challenging inquiry. Through participating in the in­ most 20 years ago, I took a women's studies class, terview itseH and listening to the seminar members' and one of the things that we had to do was some­ reactions andfeedback, Andyhoped togainusefulin­ thingsimilar to this, exceptwe spenta wholeweek­ sights for guiding his transformation. He sought to end talking about issues. And there was a guy that learn how his frame can be problematic and to dis­ seemed very normal to me, but he said he thought cover alternative perspectives. he had the right to rape women. That was the first Now we encourage you to ask yourself what you time I kind of woke up in the world and realized interpret as evidence in this interview of genuine in­ that people don't share common values. He was a quiry and what you interpret as intentional or unin­ normal college student. Twenty years ago, that tentional deflecting of inquiry. There is an implicit view was probably very commonly held by men. powerto aninquiry thatinterrelates the personal and This is what thewholeworld'sallabout,isdebat­ theprofessional,theidealandthepractical. Andy'sre­ ing these issues, but debating them so you don't sponsestouchonall ofthesenotions,and thereisclear have war, and debating them so you don't end up evidence thathe has interwovenhis personal concern having animosities with other people. That's what for freedom into his business of entertaining tourists I'm trying to stress. How do you debate issues? withthestoryofBostonasa birthplaceoffreedom. But How do you debate values? And how do youcome doesinquirypermeateallhis action? Is thereevidence to some reasonably common set of values in an or­ here of sincere inquiry during the interview itself? ganization, and in your own life, and then practice Atonepoint,for example,Tess asked Andytoshed those without being a hypocrite, and nothave peo­ a little light onhis despair and wherehis personal life

ple accuse you of being a hypocrite? But ifthey do fits intohisstory. Andyreplies, #IAre youinterestedin accuse you of being a hypocrite, how do you put the business side?" Tess responds, IINo, I'm more in­ yourself in the position to say, "Hey, you know, I'll terested in yoU.'1 How do you understand Andy then change my views. Don't·hold it againstmebecause addressingonlythebusinessside? On the·otherhand, I was wrong. Onlyhold it against meifI'mnotwill­ when challenged by Jennifer about whether he tells ing to change my views, orat leastbe open to other only those stories about his life that make him feel possibilities." good, Andy immediately offers some examples ofthe Jennifer: You have these verystrictorclearvalues,and l'bad" side of his life. At another point, Andy shares it's so easy to fall off the value train. You seem to thatoneofhisaimsistopacify theconflictbetweenhis thinkthatifyoudo,someone"Hill bethere topointa desire to work hard and his partner's desire to spend finger at you. more time withAndy. Is there any sign ofAndy mov- 190 JOURNAL OF MANAGEMENT INQUIRY / June 1999

ing toward a conversation that may change either or REFERENCES both partners' minds and goals? Whatever your conclusion on these specific pieces Abram, D. (1997). The spell ofthe snrsuous: Perception and lan­ of evidence about the kind of inquiry Andy engages guage in a more-tJuzn human world. New York: Vintage. in, the interview, with its challenging questions, pro­ Argyris, C. (1994). Knowledge for action. San Francisco: vides us with the rare opportunity to listen into the lassey-Bass. Argyris, C., &: Schon, D. (1974). Theory in practia: Increasing heart and mind of an unusually successful entrepre­ professional effectiveness. San Francisco: lassey-Bass.· neur. What we hear, it seems to us, is a person who is Argyris, C., &: Schon, D. (1978). Organizational learning. actively engaged withmany elements ofthe good life Reading, MA: Addison-Wesley. (Torbert, 1994): Barrett, F., &: Cooperrider, D. (1992). Generative metaphor intervention: A new approach for working with systems divided by conflict and caught in defensive perception. 1. with issues of life--embracing vision and principle; Journal ofApplied Behavioral Sciena, 26(2),219-239. 2. with making his own performance increasingly con­ Brown, J., &: Isaacs, W. (1996-1997). Conversation as a core sistent withhis vision while acknowledging continu­ business process. The Systems Thinker, 7(10), 1-6. ing incongruities; Collins, M., &: Porras, J. (1994). Built to last. New York: 3. with creating an enabling, inquiring working envi­ HarperCollins. ronment for others; and Collins, M., &: Porras,J. (1996, September-october).Building 4. with providing truly entertaining and educational yourcompany'svision.Harvard Business Review,pp.65-71. experiences for clients, as much ormore than he is Erikson, E. (1969). Glumdi's truth. New York: Norton. 5. with profit. Fisher, D., &: Torbert, W. (1995). Personal and organizational transformations: The true challenge ofcontinual quality im­ Yet heclearlyrecognizes thathard workandprofitare provement. : McGraw-Hill. also essential ingredients in making a visionary com­ Harrison, R. (1995). Consultanfs journey: A dance ofwork and pany grow (Collins & Porras, 1994, 1996). spirit. San Francisco: lassey-Bass. We invite you not only to develop yourownanaly­ Hawken, P. (1993). The ecology ofcommerce: A declaration of sustainability. New York: HarperCollins. sis ofthis interviewbutalso to tum to the accompany­ Reason, P. (1994). Participation in human inquiry. London: ing analytical article. It discusses our understandings Sage. 3 of Andy's action-Iogics based on the interview, Spretnak,C. (1997). The resurgence ofthe real: Body, nature, and shares Andy's reactions during a later feedback ses­ place in a hypermodern world. Reading, MA: Addison­ sion, and, in dosing, discusses how our interview­ Wesley. and-feedback methodology helps establish the valid­ Torbert, W. (1991). The power ofbalance: Transforming self, s0­ ciety, and scientifiC inquiry. Newbury Park, CA: Sage. of the analysis we offer. ity (Now available only through the author at torbert@ bc.edu) Torbert, W. (1994). The'good life: good money, good work, NOTES good friends, good questions./ounuzl ofMRnagement In­ quiry,3(1),58-66. 1. See autobiogr.aphical items at the follOWing Web site: Torbert, W. (1997a, April). Brave new world: The social al­ http://www2.bc.edu/-torbert. chemy of transforming OD&:C into the 21st century. 2. Other than Andy and the two authors, Jennifer and Academy of Management Organization Development and Bill, the names of participants are fictitious. Change Division Newsletter, pp.1-5. 3. A person's action-logic is the systematic set of as­ Torbert, W. (1997b). Developing courage and wisdominor­ sumptions-only rarely clear, explicit, and relatively accu­ ganizing and insciencing. InS. Srivastva (Ed.), Executive rate in the person's own mind-that guide his or her wisdom and organizational change (pp. 222-253). San Fran­ thinking, feeling, perceiVing, and acting. As Argyris and cisco: New Lexington Press. Schon's work (1974, 1978) hasshown,there areoftensignifi­ Torbert, W., &: Fisher, D. (1992). Autobiographical aware­ cant incongruities between espoused theories of their own ness as a catalyst for managerial and organizational de­ practice and their actual pattern ofbehavior. velopment. Management Education and Development Journal, 23(3),184-198.